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Bethany Kingsley - Garner UK ballerina S3 Ep86 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley-Garner, a ballerina from the UK and mother to her 18 month old daughter.. Bethany was born in Devon, England and moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined Scottish Ballet in 2007, was promoted to Soloist in 2013, and to Principal in 2016. She has been there ever since. She was first drawn to dancing through the music, her mother would play Classic FM at home and she recalls as a 3 year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copy her. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the Wyre Drawer company leavers prize, as well as the April Oldrich Award for Most Dynamic Performer and receiving First Commendation and Young British Dancer of the Year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 productions, from Swan Lake to The Nutcracker, and recent performances of The Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US of The Crucible, in the role of Elizabeth Proctor. She's also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Bethany - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Throughout this episode you'll hear music from various popular ballet procductions, used with permission thanks to my APRA AMPOS licence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone take people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in today. It's such a pleasure to have you. I've been feeling a bit under the weather so I've been putting off recording this intro to haven't had much of a voice. But today, I'm feeling pretty good. My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley Garner. Bethany is a ballerina from the UK and a mother to an 18 month old daughter. Bethany was born in Devon in England and she moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined the Scottish ballet in 2007 and was promoted to soloist in 2013 and two principal dancer in 2016. She has been there ever since. Bethany was first drawn to dancing through the music. Her mother would play classic FM at home, and she recalls as a three year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copier. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the wire drawer company leaders prize as well as the APR which award for most dynamic performer and receiving first commendation and young British Dancer of the year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 Productions, from Swan Lake to the Nutcracker, and recent performances of the Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US presenting the crucible in the role of Elizabeth proctor. Bethany has also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Throughout this episode, you'll hear music from various popular ballet productions, which I can use thanks to my APRA amcos Mini online licence. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you Bethany. It's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Hi, thank you for Gabby God, I'm excited to speak to you because in in whole time I've been doing this a couple of years. I've only had one other. I'm not gonna say ballerina because I don't think that do you like to be called a ballerina? I can be called ballerina you can be okay because I had a principal dancer from the Australian ballet. And she didn't want to be called a ballerina. She just want to be called principal dancer. So I've had two ballet dancers on my podcast now which is really exciting. So we're about to you at the moment to paint a picture for the listeners. I'm currently in Scottish ballet HQ, which is in Glasgow in Scotland. And we are back in our studios. We are mid tour of the strangeling at the moment so we are leaving to Newcastle today. Oh wow. Literally in the thick of it right now. Yeah, we're nearly at the end. We started about two months ago so we are we're close to the end and we had 74 shows of The Snow Queen this year. Holy moly. Is that how many days a week he performing that so we have a performances Wednesday to Saturday and there's three double show days. Where houses Batson that I mean this is the thing I discovered. Data Stephenson who As the other ballerina I've had on the show, she blew my mind with how much work you guys do like not just the performance, but then all of the rehearsing. And then like you rehearsing probably new shows while you're performing. The show the doing it was like, blew my mind. How are we on the show on the road? We don't stop then making it better or rehearsing or keeping the stamina up. So yesterday, I still rehearsed for Newcastle this week, even though I've done how many shows? Yeah, keeping it fresh, keeping it in the body? Tell us how you first got into dancing. How did you get first into the ballet music? Yeah, it was my mom used to play classic FM at home. And I remember even from the age of about three or four. So my first memories of just feeling something in my veins in my DNA and wanting me to move almost out of my control. And that was I guess the start of me developing into the ballerina I am today. So I was had a very supportive family who supported me all the way through that journey. And I went to the Royal Ballet School in London, at 11. And now I can't even imagine being a mother. That kind of pain that my family went through, but they knew that that's what I wanted to do. And I graduated with honours in 2007. And then I came straight to Scottish ballet. But it was a really beautiful journey. I had an I had a lovely time. I had a lot of time at boarding school. I think it's when you're around people that love this art form and around people have the same interest. And that really makes it because before when you're kind of a normal primary school, you're juggling both you're doing academic you may be any two in your year group that like to dance. So all of a sudden you're put into this world of the whole year group doing all together so that was really lovely. And you wouldn't have those outside distractions to you'd be like supremely focused on that you want to attend. I mean, I'm extremely homesick especially for the first time I say three to maybe four years. But something kept me there. Something in my you know, my heart my soul. I remember counting down the days before the weekend. Every night but I once I was into it, I was fine. Yeah, so we're about the suit was you're like Where were your family in relation to where were you in in you being in London. So they are in the south country. So in Devon, so it's around a drive around three hours drive. And very different countryside beaches, very rural. And then kind of you're in the centre of what especially the Upper School of London, you're in Covent gardens, you're already in the hustle and bustle. So two very contrasting worlds. Hey, just Well, you've mentioned Devon is that I went to London many years ago and we caught a train. I'm not very good with this geography. It was a place called pool is that anywhere is that we're even further down so right at the very bottom you've got Cornwall and then Devon so it's really the bottom of Southwest. Yeah, right. Is it got like big cliffs and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I can I can visualise I reckon. I think it might be a popular place for people like making movies and stuff and TV shows because I swear I've seen I've Googled it before and I would have done yeah, did you so you live you've lived up in Scotland since you joined by going on to my my 17th season next year with squid. That's my that's awesome. Wow. And I noticed you haven't really picked up an accent. No, I really haven't. I my husband's Scottish and he's quite roared. No, I really haven't. Maybe because it's still I'm still surrounded by not, you know, in our work environment. We don't have really broad Scottish accents and maybe that's why on the webpage for the Scottish ballet, your, your your page that features you, there's this amazing photo of you, which I if you'll let me I want to share with the listeners in the in a link. You just like it's black and white. And you've like got wings as part of your costume and you're like, you look like this bird of prey, basically. And you've got these massive beautiful eyes like really dark makeup diamonds on Oh, it's just stunning. It's just like, whoa, was that for role was that for like a photoshoot? That that was for the role of the self and Matthew Barnes Highland fling. Wow, I'm gonna have to read to you. I actually made it. You know, I was jumping on a trampoline. Yeah, right? You try and just kind of using my arms like wings, and they and they got the perfect. Oh, it's just unreal. I was just, and it like, it like slaps you in the face. When you come on to your why'd you like, Wow, that's incredible. So, as part of your dancing, I guess in addition to the music and the costumes, there's quite a lot of acting. And like detail encompassing the character? Do you really enjoy that side of it as well, I love that. There's not, I don't believe there are many jobs out there where you can actually transform into someone else for you know, a few hours and become that kind of emotional connection. And emotive and then come out of it and go in character in there. And I guess be a mom. That's what makes you into your kind of your depth character as well. You keep digging deeper into roles, especially now that I'm on my, you know, going into my 17 season. There's roles that I've done before. So that's nice to keep coming back as now I feel completely different to how I felt, you know, a few years ago. Yeah, absolutely. Before we start talking about you, your transition to motherhood, I really want to ask, do you have like some particularly favourite roles that you've played over the years. So the most challenging is probably Swan Lake. And I think that dancers love a challenge and the physical challenge. But also, it's one that you just feel like you have left everything on the stage. So you could almost walk off and you could see your blood, sweat and tears line there. So you really give everything one that's very close is the Snow Queen what we're doing at the moment, I was part of the creation process three years ago. And it just has a real special place in my heart and I feel otherworldly when I perform it really, really connected to the work. Yeah, that's cool. Do you find with Swan Lake, do you feel any sort of pressure because people know it so well? Like your audience has probably seen it or heard of it before? Do you feel that pressure to? I don't know, live up to maybe people's expectations? Probably not cracker. I actually feel that everyone knows music. Yep. But no, actually, I didn't feel that was Swan Lake. I felt very much I am. This is this one I'm going to be? Yeah, I felt empowered with that. Yeah, you bring your own and your own take on I guess. I have a daughter Elizabeth, who is 18. She's 18 months where? So how did it go then? And I'm just going back to I guess the previous conversation I've had had with Jana that you can feel so much pressure as a dancer that your career is going amazing. And it's usually at that same time is when you're in your childbearing years. So it's often a real pool of what do you choose to do? I guess Did you feel anything like that when you're thinking about having your daughter? No. Maybe I'm on the I'm on the other end. I feel that I'm the it for now. So maybe I left it to a point where I felt as if I had reached a certain level in my career. There's no you never go into thinking about having a child. Knowing that you'll definitely come back? I think because you don't know. So I think that probably had more of an impact on me, then, kind of where I was. I mean, it was very quick for me to feel that I knew I wanted to come back. But I always had that had, at the back of my heart, in my mind, be prepared to have something else in your, you know, ready. If this wasn't the life you wanted with your family. Did that did that sort of bring you a lot of sadness, thinking that you might not go back to dancing was that like a really big decision to sort of, to think that that might happen? I feel that I will never not want to do it. Because it's part of who I am. It's, it's in my, you know, I've mentioned, it's in my DNA. That's how that's how I feel. But I know that I would like to do something else. And I look back, and I feel extremely proud of this length of career and what I've given it so far, there will always be sadness, because it's something that you've dedicated your life to. But now as a mother of it's, I feel it lated now and so much love for another another life also, huh? Yeah. Did you have it in your head? Right from the start that you try and come back? I guess it did things go well, then that you're able to come back when you want to I had about, I talked to my director and I had about five different scenarios. ABCD and you know, all because, you know, respectfully, they're also running a business. So for a principal dancer to dip out for a long period of time, I'd always want to let them know. Roughly when they're thinking about the planning and, and everything we actually did go with Plan A, which was very surprised. But I had, I think the smooth the birth was ever so smooth. Yeah, the recovery was very smooth. So that all went into factors. But you you know, you have no idea. You need that many different scenarios, because each step of the way something can happen. emotional implications of when you're suddenly there with your child have the thought about going back to work, huh? Yeah, yeah. All those all those things, but I, I never really stopped moving. Even when, when I was she was home and maybe two weeks, I had her in the sling rocking, I used to sign on to, you know, some ballet classes from home and just enjoy that movement. And that bonding time with her. I was sharing that world that life. She was now in it with me. And that was lovely. Now that's That is awesome. And I think like, a lot of the moms I have on the show. They like you that you have something that you love so much. Like you just think you've got to keep doing it. You know, it's just part of you and you couldn't you couldn't really imagine not doing it and you sort of find ways to keep doing it and make adjustments you know, now that you're a mother she obviously knows that. I was a dancer. Yeah, she died when she was a few weeks old in my tummy when I was doing class, but yeah, she does. Yeah, she's always by my side. So we are a touring company. So she tours with me. And it's actually quite nice because we kind of get a little bit more time on tour on my hours or less with performing so I'm kind of not in the you know, in the studio all day and she comes to the theatre she may be watching the end of class laughs I take her on stage to watch a show. And that's just things like that, you know, I was sat with her on the set of snowpine. It's got a beautiful throne. And at that moment, when you're in the performance, you're sat there looking into a piece of ice. Just about to do the last part of the really tough on your point, you're really tired. And I had her with me sat there, and we just had a picture. And I was showing her the throne. She was playing with the fare on it. And now I'm on stage and I'm sat there and that's my memory. I have almost I can smell her. And it gives me so much strength. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I got goosebumps when you talk about that. Like, it's it's beautiful. Like, she's literally part of that world. Like, yes, she's there. Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Do you feel like it's important to you that she sees what you're doing? Like, I mean, I guess at her age, she hasn't got this concept of perhaps identity, the way we construct in our minds, but she's not, you're not just her mom, you have a life where you do things just on your own. I'm always knew. And you know, very much the same path as Stewart, my husband as well, that we wanted her to come in to our life. But in a way our life is how it is. Because it's the happy it's working. It's full of love. And I was quite strong on having that connection of who I am in the ballet world in the studio, that she was also in it. I think it's not a great territory when you try and keep them to separately. Because it, I find that I have no kind of stresses or worries, because if I need to have her here, then I'll bring her if I need to step away, then I will go and I think it's taking that control and that's that's my family life and that will come first. So you're talking about you're a touring company. So how far away do you go? Like what sort of an average tour I suppose an average tour is not too far. It's about the weekend at the Scottish main cities like Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, and then we come further down south to Newcastle. But we are going to America next year where she will be coming. So that'll be fun for that flight. Yeah, so we do we tour about three times a year. So that's like kind of our main bulk everything. Yeah. And then the rest of the time you rehearsing. Always rehearsing and we're seeing ballet class. Oh, yeah. That's unreal, isn't it? Do you? Do you sometimes think about your life and think this is amazing that I get to do what I love so much. Like do you have those moments where you just, I think like when I put my bike tights on in the morning, I think this is bizarre. Like it's sometimes you know, when I look around the room at people early in the morning doing doing a play is weird but wonderful world that it's just acceptable to be wearing lycra all day. And feel comfortable in it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, there's no judgement. like to talk to all my moms on the show about this concept of mom guilt, and I put that in air quotes, because I know some people don't feel it and that's awesome. And then others have issues and struggles with it, but I wanted to know what your thoughts were about it. My first emotionals reaction to feeling that I wouldn't be with her all the time was when. I mean, we actually had to put her in her own room. We knew It was time. And it was I was by her crib, she'll bedside crib and just crying for so long. The thought of her being on her own three steps away from me was, you know, heartbreaking. And I guess that's the kind of the process isn't it of finding the independence between mother and child. But that was a huge I really was. I guess it took me a little bit of surprise how physical I reacted to that feeling of just of just pushing her having her own space to sleep. Which she absolutely loved. So it was totally on me. Nothing on her. Yeah, she was fine. Then, when I first went to the theatre I had been waiting for this moment for so long. I'm gonna be back the smell of the side stage, the laying out my changing room. And I was in the car. I left it so my husband say that she would have been asleep. It was late in the evening, we had dinner and I gave my first dress rehearsal. And out just out of nowhere in the car. The tears tears came. And it was I stopped for a minute and thought is this is this? What you want to do? Is this right for her? Is this right for the family everything. And it was just it was all our I was the only one feeling there. You know, she was touched up at home. And I knew that then when I went back the next day. Well, she would when she broke up. I would have felt so good. That I was I managed to do both in a in a way that was still no one lost out except for maybe my emotions, but I would take that for anything. Yeah, I think that's how I kind of just constantly going back thinking okay, is this life is this spy world? Is this job working for the family? Is it making us happy and, and loving? And are she getting? We're getting the most time together? And it always comes back to Yes. So the feelings I'm feeling it and you just take the brunt don't you? Just go I take it. Yeah, yeah, that's that. That's that's really good. Because I feel like there's no escaping. There's no escaping that emotional pool. There's no escaping that. And then I think it's like gorgeous. Yes. I mean, it's what makes us a mother, isn't it? You know? But then it's that next step of like, you could have turned around and gone back home that night, you know, in the car. Oh, yeah. But it's like that what we do next? That's that's our beat. Then we go ride a lot. And like you said, we were that that emotional pain. We go oh, that, you know, you're but then we go on? And we do and like you said you felt you knew you were gonna feel amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a funny old thing that that mom guilt, isn't it? Someone said, there's a lady I had on the show. I can't remember who it was now. So apologies. But she she had this idea that mom guilt was this. It was a innate ingrained thing from biological evolution that basically made us not forget the child, you know, like, it was just, you know what I mean? Like, it was just something that had to be in us to make us you know, not leave it out, where it could be endangered, you know, in, I don't know, in the caveman days or something, you know, like something like that? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. The another thing I like to really chatter about is the changes in our own identity when when we become a mom. How did you cope with that? Now, I'm a very different person, but I didn't see that I didn't feel the change, it just happened. And the differences is I definitely know who I am. I think when you go through something that's like a child. And it's you're just giving everything and you're not thinking it's not you in that moment. It's not you in that time, it's you're giving you reach a point in your life. But you know, the people which have been able to have this amazing thing happened to them. Very rarely are you at that point where you would do anything? You're doing everything to have a this dispersed. And just, I think more I use the word empowered, but not in a way of Yeah, gritty. Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's in a way of mothering, of embodied and gathering, I feel the strength from everything that I'm, I'm doing, I can arrive at work, and I've been up to six hours, just silly things, but it makes you feel like, okay, I'm a, I'm okay, today, I'm what you knows is everything settled and happy. And so that's how I feel, and nothing to lose, I now have nothing to lose. For myself for her and, yeah, no, I love that. That's really that's really cool way of putting it. So before we talked about, that, you've done a couple some roles that you've done more than once. And I wanted to take you back to that about him. You said how when you're at different stages in your life? Have you had any sort of times where you've been very conscious of the fact that now that you are a mother that you approach the rolls differently? Or is it just something that happens with time? So I didn't prep you for this one. Um, my first season back, I did the ballet called My scandal at Milan. And I play two roles. And one of the roles was a bride that actually was a you know, it was a bedroom scene, but it was extremely rough and violent. And this is my first season that year after. So I felt a lot more in tune of where I was being touched, right. And whereas pre birth, I guess, physically, I would have just ran into that not even second, and then it was cool. Oh, yeah, it was a little bit more tentative. I wasn't in my own skin yet. Now I am. But this unit, you're talking maybe seven months after? So you're really like, is my leg coming with me? Or is it still on the other side of the room? On the floor today, or are they going to be touching like it was really sort of, but I had heart and soul in it. But yeah. So physically, that's, I'm not as carefree as I was with my body. Letting maybe awesome fight or flight mode. I'm a bit nervous being lifted. Never used to. Yeah. But now I have something to seriously not get injured for. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Is it bigger? There's a bigger picture. Somebody gets scared of flying or you know, height. And it's that similar thing of, I'm a bit more careful with myself. That's a really that's a really cool observation, isn't it? Yeah. Because I guess if you weren't in the inner city ration where you were really shocked around and you might not ever notice the basic things like when you're crossing the road by yourself or when you're crossing the road with your child. You're very different. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, can I make the lights off? Nope. We're gonna wait for the Green Man. Yeah, I think it's that similar thing. But she was in me, even though she wasn't in the studio at the time, just as I was getting back. So that's the main shift I found out, huh? Yeah, I thought that's really cool. There's a lot of us that may or may not be able to relate to that. Because it's the level of physicality that some of us may or may not have. But that's a really cool observation. I really liked that. I also wanted to ask, how did you find, you know, when you're pregnant, and you get that, like, I can't think what the thing is. It's like elastin or something happens in your hormones release these. What's it called? relaxing? Relaxing? Yeah. Did that change your your body heat, and it took so long to go? Yeah, right. So where I think you just feel more gooey. But you know, you're carrying you want, you don't want the body to be whole, stiff, you want it to be looser, I felt a lot at the back of my knees. So when we straighten things, normally, they would kind of lock and I had so much still in it still, when I was back that seven months that my legs were a bit like chicken legs, they were still sort of rebounding back. Yeah. And structurally, physically, you know, my physical shape has changed, probably not to, you know, an audience member. But to my own, maybe the people closest around me. It's that hip structure. It's the the widening the ribcage, you know, when you go through something like breastfeeding. It's the more broad you get in there. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. And that's yeah, and being doing something that you you're so aware of your body, it'd be interesting to to see those little nuance changes. And yeah, I did a lot of them. I worked with my physio through the whole time. But just that was really interesting. Just working on things like my turnout. So you know, in dance, classical ballet, the main thing is we have to rotate from the tops of our legs. Well, if my pelvis changes just a tiny bit, how would that how would that tweak that? Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting, isn't it? I find it really fun. I guess Yeah. Somebody else I've started talking to moms about lately, especially moms who you know, have who work it use their art as you know, a career when you were growing up, what sort of role modelling did you have from from your own upbringing about what a mother could look like? What you sort of options were as a as a mother I guess. So my mum was so passionate, so passionate to let us fulfil our dreams and confidence building and I think I can see myself now with Elizabeth just imparting little things. I know you can do you know what walking, you can do it? No, you can. So I had that kind of structure and I had an older sister who was very fat, very musical, but very outgoing and confident. So I think those those things in your life they rub off on you. They are an upper New and then I guess in the kind of artistic world. There were just so many so many dancers from the Royal Ballet that used to watch and see teachers as he used to impart a few words of wisdom, I do a little bit of teaching now. And it can make or break students. And that's, you know, a such a powerful role of being a teacher. Especially when you're maybe more of a vulnerable age, as a giant where you hold on to every word, I think we can probably all remember, a praise. And we can all remember a negative thing that has, you know, it's so important. Definitely, you think about that when you're raising a child of the implications of words. And think of what they will pick up on. So important. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Because I think a lot of time we sort of, we might use a term as a throwaway term or say something we don't necessarily mean, but that's what your child he is. And then they hold on to that. Yeah, so yeah, it's when when you just said about you'll always remember praise and, you know, a negative comment straightaway, I just went, went back to little Alison doing singing lessons like it just straightaway, back to that space. Like it's yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It is, isn't it? Yeah. stuff. I haven't thought about it for years now. But okay. Thanks. I'll leave that bit. So, tell us where you're going. We will be going on to our spring season, which is the Tennessee Williams story of A Streetcar Named Desire. Oh, awesome. Oh, love is a ballet that we have done before we actually created it a Scottish ballet a few years ago. So I'm revisiting it, which is going to be so lovely. And I love the story ballet. And then we will be touring that in the spring, around to Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow, and the spring seasons, always the nicest because of the blossoms and blooms and the weather. Just start starting in Scotland. It's not always great, but it just starts to free up the frost. Yeah, and you get blue skies. And then we will be preparing for our American tour in May, which is to Washington, Charleston and Nashville, like so. And will that be the same show that you were to the crucible? So another story? Yeah, right. It's funny. We were just talking about that today. Sorry, on a completely different I'm just I was just talking about that today with my son. Yeah. Because it's something which Charles Yeah. Elizabeth proctor? Oh, pregnant. It's just I mean, you know, I couldn't play a more authentic role. Really? It's just lovely. Oh, how exciting. Have you done that one before? Is that a new one for you? I actually created an Elizabeth proctor around about four years ago. And I have performed it now being a man we performed it back in London. Yes, and this has been my second time now. Oh, lovely. Oh, that's exciting. So I'll put some links in the show notes where people can check out where you guys are and if you're in the neck of the woods, I say hello. All moms just sometimes just pat themselves on the back and be like You're awesome. I think to your friends, you maybe don't have children. I think it's it's a really lovely trait that they you know, they try and you keep those conversations and you try and understand and still meant bringing your children into because that's also another huge dynamic shift. I'm actually the only dancer in the company currently with a child. Yeah, right. So just just things like that, but I don't feel it's a, because she's constantly in the conversation or they ask and I think keeping things like that open is important. Yeah, she's a part of it. It's not. It's not like this this taboo subject that we don't talk about with Bethany. You know, it's, she's, she's part of it all. Yeah. All thank you so much for coming on. Like, it's just been so lovely chatting to you, and all the rest with your dancing and on your tour and everything and oh, yeah, I'll keep I'll keep my eye out for you. If you ever come to rescind your Alia, I know. Please. I mean, I will keep you know on social media with you. And if it's anything else, from a UK tie in, I'm here and I'm for you. And yeah. Oh, thank you. Appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Heather McClelland UK singer, songwriter, musician, composer and music educator S2 Ep40 Listen and subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest this week is Heather McClelland, a singer, songwriter, musician and music educator based in Sussex UK, and a mum of 1. Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a travelling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather’s first gig was the at an Irish Busking Festival at the age of 6. She has been writing songs since the age of 13. In her high school years, Heather sang backing vocals for her mother’s performances and was playing in bands. During her university years Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog Mcrea . After finishing school Heather went to Brazil for three years, studying music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid-twenties, she continued to perform Brazilian-influenced music (appearing at Festinho, The Royal Festival Hall and Favela Chic) as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix, Wah Wah 45's Stac, and Ninja Tune's Submotion Orchestra. As a soloist, Heather's debut EP China Mind was released in 2020 just before the pandemic hit. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer-songwriter and neo-classical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure-toned voice and her evocative harmonies Heather’s vocal group The Sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio, specialising in close 3 part harmonies. While busking, the trio were spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter Sir Terry Wogan and that lead to some amazing opportunities, including performing on BBC Radio 2 and at Royal Albert Hall. Heather has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital as lead Artist on the Vocal Beats programme, which she helped to create and develop. The project works with paediatric heart and lung patients from birth to 25 years, offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at Great Ormond Street Hospital for children. **This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. ** Heathers Website / youtube / spotify The Sugar Sisters VocalBeatsOnline Read about Royal Brompton Hospital VocalBeats project The vocal Beats Nursery Rhymes album Georgia Fields ' Find The MotherLode Heather's music is used throughout this episode with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch all music used on the podcast. He's done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowl antic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to today's episode. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Heather McClelland Heather is a singer, songwriter, musician, and music educator based in Sussex in the UK, and a mom of one Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a traveling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather's first gig was at the age of six in an Irish busking festival. Heather has been writing songs since she was 13 years old, and in her high school years, she sang backing vocals for her mother's performances, who is a singer songwriter in her own right, and she was playing in bands. During her university years, Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog McCray. After finishing school, Heather went to Brazil for three years where she studied music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid 20s, Heather continued to perform Brazilian influence music, as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix and Ninja tune to sub motion orchestra. As a soloist Heather's debut EP Chyna mind was released in 2020. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer songwriter and neoclassical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure tone voice and evocative harmonies. Heather's vocal group the sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio specializing in close three part harmonies. While busking the trio was spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter, Sir Terry Wogan, and that led to some amazing opportunities including performing on BBC Radio and at Royal Albert Hall, in addition to writing and performing him has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital As lead artist on the vocal Bates program, which she helped to create and develop. This project works with pediatric heart and lung patients from birth to age 25 offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes, and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at the Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children in London. This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. carry with me, huge huge. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Heather. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Oh, thank you. It's a real pleasure to be speaking to. Especially across the waters like it's nice to be speaking to someone it's a totally different time as well. You're in your night and I'm in my morning. Yeah, and yeah, so what what we're about to lunch. Are you in London? Where are you willing to? No, I'm actually so I'm in Sussex we were I love them. My husband just walked in the door so probably downstairs might hear him talking to the neighbors outside currently. But anyway, so I live in Sussex now which is southeast. We spent I spent a lot of time living in London and yeah during like living in a flat in London with a child in lockdown was definitely like a good like push to leave. We've been wanting to do it for ages. But yeah, so I now by now I work in London a lot. Like I just live an hour from London, but it's very much in a beautiful village in Sussex. So kind of the best of both worlds. Yeah, nice because you can sort of escape that intense busyness and sweat. Yeah, for me. Definitely. And I go to London, like at least once a week, sometimes twice. So it's really Yeah, it's still totally a part of my life. But it's very much like it when I get back to the country. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Things You just reminded me of, I'm already going off topic. We went to London, it would have been 2005 everything before we had kids. And I just felt like, I didn't feel nervous at all. I just felt like I was at home because we watch a lot of English TV shows. Yeah, in Australia. And it was like, Oh, I just felt so relaxed. And like all the accents, I found myself starting to into, like, do people's accents, like he would say, Yeah, and it was just really fun. And it's so relaxing. And then so nicely think London's relaxing night. I mean, there's no doubt that it's often when I go overseas, I mean, I haven't been I've saved for a long time now. But we'd go to Asian countries, because they're close for us. And you just don't know what you're going to get. But obviously, the language barrier, the smells are different, like, the culture is slightly different. And I get really nervous. As soon as I get in the airport, you could always tell if there's a guard holding a gun, you're sort of like, yeah, it's a totally different vibe. Yeah, London was just like, Ah, this is, ya know, it's so great. It's so great. And it's so great. It is great when you have child children, like there was a lot of stuff to do. But it's such a great place to be pre kids as well. Like, I really enjoyed this period, like late 20s, early 30s, living in London and just go into parties and go to magazine party just doing really fun, you know, just having that live for a bit. It was great. And then you have kids and then you're like, God, it's quite an effort. With my child. I'm already going out. Yeah, the organization. It's just like, it's a whole like, lane for like, this whole. Yeah, so that has to happen. The other thing you reminded me when you talked about leaving an airway, there's a show we get over here called escape to the country, but and visions of people how they go, Oh, we just want to get out of this city. And oh, it's like, that is literally what England is like right now. I mean, there's so many people that are moving from London, especially like in this village. Everyone's just like, Oh, God, country, so yeah, it's so much that's why Yeah, I I'm gonna have to do some Googling when I get off and I'll have a look at some pictures of your what your little areas like? Yeah, like it's gorgeous. Yeah, totally. The other thing I love asking people about is their weather. What's your weather like at the moment? Um, yeah, it's pretty good. It's okay. It's just like, yeah, it's just gray skies. And I think it's very, you know, you can really feel by the beginning of March, you know, we're all just like, desperate for spring, it's been this kind of really intense winter, and it was really sunny the other day, and I was like, Oh, my God, like, hope you live like, there's that kind of vibe. And then, yeah, so I think it's like, although it is a bit gray, you also kind of know that it is hopefully, I mean, it's England, so it has snowed at Easter before, but do you hope that we're kind of coming out of there, like, sigh like back end of that kind of wintry vibe. And I think for us, it's really nice, because we've only been here like, we've been here just over a year. So we kind of saw, like, you know, the blossoms coming out and like sort of discovered it, but it was very much when we moved here, you know, we were still in a lockdown. And we also were kind of, you know, just figuring out the house and whatever, just basically very, very new to it. And now I'm quite excited about the fact that like, I know that the sun is coming and like just sort of discovering this area and watching like the blossoms come on the trees and stuff because that is quite special, isn't it when that starts happening after you know, because it's so I mean, as with most people, I definitely know I'm quite affected by the weather. And after you've had like really bleak winter, you're just a bit like oh my god another day and then suddenly the sun the sun shines and you're like, okay, yeah, okay, like life is good. Yeah. So yeah, it's quite great right now. It's fine. Yeah. drizzly with with a view to sun. Every time it's sunny, you felt like you have to do something. And then you're like, Yeah, it's fine. To do like, I can be sunny and like, we can also just be like, oh, yeah, we don't have to go on these massive trips. My husband was like, sunshine and we have to go on a walk and you know, so it's like, knowing that we're in a nice place now that we're gonna have hopefully a whole lifetime sun coming in. Yeah, you don't have to do it all at once. Yeah, exactly. I love that. You're a singer and songwriter and a musician. Can you tell us about how you got started? And the meat of it? Yeah, sure. It's so weird. I was thinking about this today because I was thinking it's like I do so many different things musically in terms of my life is like, it's yeah, there's there's a few like very different things that kind of obviously intertwine. But it's quite rare almost to like, talk to someone about all of them at the same time, do you not like because it's almost like you're kind of like, oh, this is me when I do music and hospital or this is my singer somewhere and stuff. Well, this is the vocal true, like, so you kind of have these quite different, like mindsets. And then you're like, oh, yeah, it's really nice to reflect on everything. So I basically, yeah, so I grew up in a musical family, but in a very alternative way. So like, I didn't have it wasn't like I had like four more lessons or anything when I was a child. I mean, I would have loved that. But like, I had kind of quite the opposite, like really alternative parents that just did music, like so I kind of just grew up around music. My dad was Irish. So I like had a lot of like, Irish music, which is actually I think that does feel quite important because in the Irish culture, it's just so like, natural and instinctive. So I kind of grew up a lot around, like all my, his family would always just be singing at gatherings like my granddad, even when he was like 95 would be like singing into into the early hours of microphone at party, you know, that kind of vibe. So, yeah, so I just grew up with that. And then, and then my first performance was when I was like, about about five in Ireland. So we're basically traveling around and a boss in Ireland. And I had my first ever performance was with my all my family, and my mom and my dad, and my brother and my sister have more since then. But at the time, it was just the three kids. And we were performing in a busking festival. So like, they basically had to like go round, you'd go and get kind of basket and then get chosen and be the finalists on the stage. So we got chosen to be the finalists on the stage. So I have this memory of being about five and like fighting over a microphone with my brother and sister because we're slightly different heights. And then we like sang. And I don't know, I mean, I think that the whole town came in my mind and my memory there like 1000s of people watching. I mean, I don't know, they're probably a couple of 100. I don't know, like, you know, so that was Yeah, so I guess that kind of it was always like, it's weird, because it was always very natural. But because of that I kind of it wasn't like a big thing that I saw. It was just like, oh, yeah, cool, like, and then your family broke up. Yeah, it's just what I did. And then my family broke up, my mom and dad broke up. And then my mom got together with an African musician and had a few children with him. So I grew up in with like, a lot of like, West African music around me. So then that was all like, we're kind of always traveling with that. And they were working doing a lot of music in schools. And, and performing. And then and when I was a teenager, my mom used to sing. And I used to basically sing like backing vocals for her. So it was quite a weird like, I was saying this the other day, I say this gig that is like, literally the moment where I was really embarrassed about my mom because you just go through that phase when you're a teenager right? Where you're like, oh my god, mom, like what are you saying? I was literally standing on stage with her at the same time as being like, totally, like singing her songs was like, oh my god, like so it's really interesting conflict. But yeah, but then I think I kind of Yeah, it was like not they did obviously, like, encouraged my singing, but it was weird because it was like, it was just quite a sort of like, it wasn't like I'd meet someone and they'd be like, in my family, they'll just like oh, yeah, cool. You sick rather than like, was kind of later in life when I would go and do stuff with other people that would be like, Oh, wow, like you can really sing. Whereas it was just kind of like just what people did. And then yeah, and then it was kind of when I went to uni that I started really like having my own bands and like started you know, I was always writing stuff since I was a teenager but then it was like when I started going to university I started performing with my own bands and then I went I spent a few years living in Brazil and doing music there and that was like for me that was a really nice again, it was very much like kind of culture that you know, it's very on British in the way that music is very much like everyone there and it was just you know, you have no no space to be like really shy and like oh, I don't I feel a bit self conscious about singing. It's just like you sick, sick. So it kind of so going into Brazil really helped me kind of with you know, overcoming any sort of shyness and also it was a really nice it was a period where I just met all these new people, and no one knew anything about me and It was the first time I'd kind of had these people that were like, Wow, you're a singer, and you've really got some income, we want to really support you. And I had a whole group of people that really sort of supported me to go and do recording. And like it was the first time almost that I kind of, I don't know, like, yeah, that was almost like an adult away from everyone. And someone knew nothing about me that just had me. So it was like, a really important chapter in my confidence, I think. And that's where I made a decision in Brazil, like, whatever happens, even if I have to, like bask on the street, like, I'm going to pursue a musical path. And yeah, and I have done that. I mean, it's been, obviously, as you will know, is a very up and down journey, but like I have pursued it, and then it's taken me to lots of like, different, you know, places and yeah, really exciting things. And yeah, like, we'll mix and stuff from where I don't see myself to him. Yeah, so then I did like a lot of stuff with my solo staff in Brazil. And then I came back and I and I've kind of carried on pursuing that. And then I also speaking of busking on the streets, like I kind of had a, a trio that, like, I have a couple of friends who are really, really incredible singers. And one summer we were like, oh, like we need some money over summer. Why don't we just go and Bosque and so we put together this, this trio called the sugar sisters, which is very much like, you know, close pot harmony, but all very visual as well. So dress up like 40s clothes, and it was all like, so we did that. And we just like went to Baskin from doing that. It's so funny that there's these two kind of formative things in my life with busking, but from busking with them. We can't like just so much stuff happened from that, you know, like someone I don't know if you know, this, I don't know if you know, do you know? I don't know how well known he is. But there's this person called Terry Wogan, or there was an amazing presenter here that like everyone loves like it was like, absolutely like he is he's not alive anymore. This Irish radio presenter that like, absolutely like one of the like, any person here is like, oh my god, Terry Wogan, my husband's amazing Irish man. So his, his producer spotted us busking. And then we went on to tear away his radio show, and then did quite a lot of different stuff with him. And then like, just on all these really nice gigs came and so like, I just had this kind of, you know, like, where you didn't know, something happened and went from being like, Oh, we let's go get some money. Like, we're also going to risk in this summer to like, going and being like, Oh, wow, this is so yeah, this kind of one of these random little chapters of life. And then, yeah, yeah. And then I do music as well. In a hospital, a few hospitals that I've had as a musician in residence where I get to work with some really amazing other artists. And that's a whole kind of other chapter almost, but I kind of do that. And then I Yeah, and then I write my own stuff still. And I continue performing. And I do work alongside my husband with the stuff that I write. And he's helped produce, he's amazing musician himself, and does lots of other stuff too. So yeah, kind of. It's an interesting thing, thinking about all this stuff. You've done all the stuff you kind of content like, yeah, there's so many different things that you're kind of balancing and then obviously, with parenthood and then obviously, with a pandemic, so it's felt like quite a strange time. Being musician now I'll say, but I feel like I'm only just post COVID Like, starting to believe that music can happen again do because there was a period probably like a year ago where I was like, oh my god, is this life now? Are you like, are we ever going to do the cake again? No, that was a really big stream of consciousness. So please ask a question. That's fantastic. Oh, it's it has it's been such a shocking time. I mean, Touchwood we've, personally we've been pretty good. We're in South Australia. So we're quite away from like the big centers like Melbourne Sydney that have had the big outbreaks. And we certainly haven't had the level of lockdowns Melbourne had been locked downs but like we haven't had the same level of lockdown as what you guys have had over there so but even in that was just like stuff was just getting cancelled left right and center and it was like Oh, really like my phone's my cherry lips kiss There we go. Did you find sort of new ways to be to K Playing music like is it really important to you to keep it to be honest, I found it like a really difficult time because I think I'd love to say like, yeah, it was amazing. And I like, did this and I went there and I wrote this and but actually, the reality is I like had a two year old. And I, I really struggled like it with it, because I think it's like, especially when some of my friends were, you know, we'd be like, Oh, I've just like, I mean, everyone's different. But some people were, you know, having a lockdown. And maybe they felt like, they were getting using it as an opportunity to write songs or something. But like, I know, I didn't, I couldn't write anything. I mean, I mean, I tried to I wrote little bits and bobs, but I just didn't really have the headspace I, I worked. So all the hospital stuff I was doing, I was really lucky to so I did that online. And so it was really interesting taking a whole practice online so that in a way it was you know, still doing creative stuff. I collaborate with these incredible like, this other singer stack, and he's World Champion beat boxer. So we kind of had to find a way to do a whole like, yeah, online offer to patients and young people that we work with. So in a way we were like, you know, we made a kind of like, harmony and beatboxing nursery rhyme album, while we were doing these, like live streams, also, you know, so I was doing stuff with them. But in terms of my own writing, I was sort of desperately trying to, like carve out a little bit of time, but it was like, and me and my husband, you know, the good thing is, is that we were at home together. So sometimes we would like you know, maybe just have like a little jam session in the evening or play through some stuff. But then it's funny with that, because you get like irritated like, oh, I want to play this or blood or play that like so then it's like I've got so we kind of bicker through what we're gonna play. But I yeah, I just found it like a really difficult time because there just wasn't. It just felt like survival because it was like, we were in a flat, we had no childcare and I had to work and my husband had to work. So it was kind of like if I wasn't doing the hospital work, I was doing child care and a flat with a two year old who is as an only child will sit away will say not was was never been the most self sufficient child never want to go and play by himself. But you know, I mean, it's not like, not a kind of, like, entertain himself if he's now four. But he's and he's amazing. He's really sweet. But you know, it's not a kind of like, oh, it just sits in the corner with the drawers while I sing. It's like, just on that I saw a video of you on your Instagram, you were seeing Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered. Yes. And you could hear this little boy's calling out. But that is literally, exactly I mean, we had that was that was actually during that period as well. Because that would be like we'd be there. And we had a piano in the living room. So at least I'd be like, you know, what I would always try and do is I think, okay, when can I sing? So it's like, he'd be eating breakfast. And I'd like you know, have a book of like, standards. And I played them on the ukulele and like, oh, like, yeah, get my house was there but exactly, you just learn how to just be like, the seeming like, yeah, okay, later, you know, but you can kind of weave it in. And then people are like, Oh, god, that's amazing that you can weave it in and you like literally the only way I get to do it. But actually recently, I'd say which has been so nice is I had a gig last week, and I had a few rehearsals. And he was so amazing. And I wasn't like it was the first time where I would say okay, I'm just rehearsing and someone's come around, and we're just singing some harmonies, I've set up your toys and stuff in your room. So you can come in if you want to play. And it was kind of the first time that he was actually just sort of doing that. And then also we went right, yeah, I went into someone else's house. And he was like, playing with a train set listening to us rehearse. And I was like, Okay, this is this is really nice. I'm really you know, so he's, as he gets older, he's like, he loves music. And he's more sort of getting a bit more not respectable, but like, he's sort of getting more of an understanding that like, this is important. And he like, you know, he'll go to sleep every, every night. He has phases that will either be like my out and he'll listen to or my husband's album or like when we were rehearsing, he was listening to my husband the other day, like doing some little electronic triggers for some of one of my songs, like really kind of abstract part of the track that like no one would really know what that was probably listen, he walked into when someone's can't be enough, right. So he's just got this like, really? You're like, yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because there's an incredible video. And I've got to commend you for teaching your child about amazing musicians about Yorke's. He must know her inside out. Yeah, just I'll just give you a bit of background for the listeners. There's a video where you're basically playing like literally snippets of songs, even like, it's like intro like the intro could even be like, the sound of a like one drum beat or something like the very beginning of a song. Yeah. And he's just yelling out the name. So, that's that Yeah. That is like bravo to you for not maybe not doing that with the wiggles but you know what I mean? Like, I know I did. Yeah, I know it's funny my husband's like tried really, he's he's always got a carrot into quite nice music and Akira loves it. But he's got this real like memory he's got. He's like that about your to a level that I know loads of incredible Buick fans. I mean, I love New York, but I don't think I know an adult that would be able to go head to head with him. Like he's so good at knowing what the title is. But every time he will listen, he won't just go like, I like this. He's like, so what's the name of this song? Can I see the cover like so he kind of just takes it all in. And then he'll say I want to listen to something I've never heard before. But Bjork, so he knows, like to give it like, the good thing about Bjork is she's got such a big back catalogue that you can keep discovering. And he's like that About Flags of the World and geography as well. He's got kind of crazy, great, amazing. Yeah. Yeah, that is so so it's actually been really nice with him to kind of discover and listen to music with him. You know, it's been a really nice thing. And like, yeah, some of our favorites. So he's just got a real quite a niche. And at his birthday party, he is his fourth birthday party. And anyone that that knows be, well, like, There's a song called Earth intruders, which is like, quite sort of. Yeah, quite intense. It's like quite rhythmical and quite heavy. And he was like, I want Earth intruder. So he's like saying he doesn't know his friends. He's just literally like, What the hell is going on? And then he's like, and then for lights and then musical statues. He's like, I want human behavior. And again, they're all just they're dancing. These guys. I think they're really enjoying it like. Now, Nasr, he likes to get the teacher to always plays on Bjork songs and come home. So they played possibly, maybe, but it wasn't the right version, but all the other kids are just like yeah, I love that. It's funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That brought him a Bjork t shirt for his birthday, which was what she loves is his favorite t shirt. And we did actually send because I have a friend who's like, who works who's kind of has connections of people that have connected to Bjork. So she did send me the video we didn't get a reply, but hopefully nonetheless, she's she got to watch it even if she just got to watch the video of Akira naming us she'd be pretty proud of it. I hope so. Oh, that's great. Day from all the things that you were exposed to how could what what way do you describe your style of music that for your singer songwriter? I guess I would sort of I would describe it as a ethereal very harmony driven. Yeah, I love strings. I love harmonies. And I love music that kind of creates like a sense of atmosphere and slightly otherworldly. Like yeah, so I guess it's very, like, female vocalist, but very much and yeah, and the theory away and I don't, I don't feel like it's like, oh, yeah, it's just phone call. Like it's I find it hard to kind of categorize it in a way Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say like it's it's, you know, a bit acoustic a little bit electronic. There's kind of fragments of like electronic fragments of acoustic and staff fragments of folk but all together, it's like, yeah, Ariel is kind of what I'm going for. And it's really nice because I it's taken me a long time to develop that sound like obviously, I've worked through I've been writing songs since I was like, probably 13. And I have gone through like, lots of different phases and recorded stuff that I would now say like, oh, that doesn't represent me at all. Like I kind of, you know, it's taken a while to sort of discover like, what my voice is. Yeah, what kind of musical sound I want. And I definitely think that has has my husband he's been really helpful in like yeah, I really trust his musical instinct, but I think it's the closest to I think as when you're first starting out, it's very hard to kind of sometimes trust yourself when you're like with someone that may have a louder voice or you're working with a producer or an especially because you know, I'm very much I have done more music training as I've got older and I went and studied musical in Brazil and I did different things. But I, as I said, like when I was younger, I didn't have less than I grew up and I sang in a very instinctive way. So like, actually, when you first start coming, and you're suddenly going into a world of people that kind of have different sets of theory, and then you're trying to articulate your ideas when you don't necessarily have the language for it, that can feel quite intimidating. And I think with Taz is like he is the closest I could get to like putting my ideas out so he can start. So sometimes, for example, like a lot of the stuff I've done, like, I've got a seven string guitar from Brazil, and I like, wrote a bass line on that. And then he helped translate that onto a piano like, but he did exactly what I done and was like that, or like I've got, sometimes I've written some stuff on a ukulele, I'd like some interesting chords, and then he's put that onto a heart. Or then I've written all these vocal lines, like I love writing those layers of vocal harmonies, and then he's helped translate all of those and put those onto strings. So it's like, a, you know, so it says, directors, my ideas could be with someone that can kind of translate help me translate them. Yeah, so that's, so that's been really interesting, like us working together. And obviously, he brings all his own stuff as well. But the first time we work together, I wrote this song for him. And when we first got together, and he and I knew like that, I couldn't just say the word like love, because he's he is really into lyrics, we kind of bonded over lyrics. So I remember writing the song was very pre pre kids, when you could spend hours thinking about how you wanted your lyrics to sound. So I had like, 36 pages of lyrics to get to these one lyrics. And, and I Yeah, so I wrote the song and, and then I sent it to him. And then he, like, wrote this really beautiful, outdoor piano back and then like, sent it back to me. And then from that, then that was the beginning of our collaboration. And now like, that whole outro section just has this beautiful like, Scott. It's kind of almost a track on its own. And it's got really gorgeous strings. And so yeah, we kind of always tried to collaborate in a way where like, he has sort of space to bring his style and taste and then yeah, finding his his voice comes through as well. Yeah, yeah. So how would you describe his style of music? So he has his own desk called Taz Modi. And he has his own solo project. And it's like, it's contemporary, classical, I guess. So it's very, I mean, it's really beautiful. But it's very, he plays piano and yeah, does a lot of stuff with piano strings. But he also does a lot of stuff that's electronic in it like, yeah, kind of contemporary electronic stuff. Well, doesn't really describe it very well, but quite subtle electronic stuff in there. And then he plays with a band called sub motion orchestra, and he plays a band called portico quartet. And again, both of them are kind of like elements have elements of like, electronic jazzy like. Yeah, very cool. So I first met Taz through hearing through my friend Ruby, who plays in submission orchestra who I also sing in the trio with so fast. Yeah, so I met her through that, because he plays in the band with her. And it's like, it's really nice to meet someone that you really respect as a musician. And then and then like, and then to make a connection, because I think it's so important. Like, I feel like music is such an A part of me that it's like you really, even if you just met someone, and they were like, so perfect, but you just really like, I don't know, I know, like, I have, like, you're just on a totally different wavelength musically. Like that would be I don't think that would work very well. You know, like, I know, if I did once I once was seeing someone, and he just was just he just had a really bad music taste and like, but we just, and that sounds really harsh. But it's like, we were just on a different wavelength. And I was like, it's not. It feels like such an integral part of me that if I play your song, you just don't get it like you don't get me like so. Yeah. So it's really nice that we like connect on that level. Absolutely. It has good taste. Yeah. So that's the thing is, it's about looking deeper into things and maybe seeing, seeing why you've created what you've created. And that gives you gives you a glimpse into you. And so yeah, if people are only seeing like, you know, the surface, there's, yeah, yeah. So they're like, Yeah, it's really nice. And you're like, Okay, I don't want to say that. I'm sorry. But like, with your partner, you're just like, how are you getting like, who are you? Anyway? So yeah, we do. And it's funny with Chad's because it's like, it's a really good connector between us because like, if we're really like, if we're annoying each other or kind of irritated by each other, we're having a little period of finding things challenging. Actually, probably the best way we could reconnect is like seeing each other doing music and sort of remembering who each other is, you know, because sometimes when I go and see him playing, I really kind of just see him and I like, do you not? Yeah, if you're not, I mean, and I hear the sort of sensitivity of the music that he plays. It's really beautiful. It kind of reminds me of like, really who he is like at his core, and that's like, yeah, and I think probably the same for him. It kind of really reminds you of like that. really big thing that's like a really big connection. And like I said, we connected through music, we connected through a shared love of different different styles move through a shared love of lyrics and stuff. So that is very much kind of an integral thing for us. Yeah, so. So when you guys decided to have a family? Was that Yeah. Were you conscious of how that would affect your community? Definitely. Yeah. And I really, it's still something that I found. Yeah, I just feel a little bit like, in this creative world, you're always kind of striving to do something or to like, reach some I don't know. For me, I kind of feel like there's always felt like, I've done all these really cool things, but there still feels like oh, there's this thing to actualize. And you kind of can't take your foot off, but you can't just be like, Oh, I'm just having a total break from everything. And I'll get back to my career later. You know, it's felt so i think i Yeah, so I definitely felt I was quite scared. Like having a baby. I was quite scared about like, losing my place, I guess. And actually, in a way, looking back, I actually did things like, probably in hindsight, to say, I don't, it's too soon, but like, I think, I think I'd have another baby, maybe I would give myself a bit more space. I mean, maybe I wouldn't, but like in like, I think looking back, it's like when Akira was so tiny. I was like, back doing like a really big gig when he was like seven weeks old. And he came with me. You know, and it was this like, completely silent audience of like, in a really formal place like 400 people in silence, like watching and I'd like just been like trying to breastfeed like backstage and then I like, went to sing. And then I was like, Tas came with me. So you could hold a care. But again, it's like, you know how, when you have a baby, you're completely like, it's the one thing you don't have any control, like their timing. So you know how you're like, if you like, need to get dressed up on stage, do my thing. This is timing. Suddenly, you're like, Oh, I kind of got little baby. I'm trying to get them alive. And yeah, so I kind of I remember doing that and being like, Whoa, this is actually like, I've just, I've really just had a baby. And my voice was really weird, which I get no one told me that my voice would be weird for a while after having a baby or the hormones. So yeah, it was quite, you know, and, um, and then I also went back to work at the hospital really, really soon as well, because a really good opportunity came up and I was like, oh, so I'd like you know, I do all these things like my in laws. Well, like, they'd look after I go, I'd be expressing it like, you know, when he was like, literally, like three months old, where like, I just go, I mean, I mean, little snippets, but it's like, yeah, I really, I just didn't want to Yeah, lose my place. I guess. So. And, yeah, and I think I, I want to I wonder how, if looking back if I think like, how has it affected me? And I think yeah, it has affected in lots of ways, like having a child is amazing. And I love like being a mum. It's amazing. It's given me like a sense of purpose. And also maybe that thing that you're always trying to achieve that kind of maybe, I don't know, finding a bit more peace with that and being a bit more present to the moment because actually, I think what I like one of the things about being a mum I've kind of learned since through time is if I try and do too many things at the same times as being with a carer, that's when it's stressful. Like I need to kind of, I don't want to say I need to separate my life, but I need to like it's great. Like we say in the mornings I can sing with him isn't terrible. But if I've got a gig, like actually, I really just want to have headspace to get ready for that gig. And if I am if I'm with a career in the day, I really don't want to be trying to work at the same time. You know, it's like trying to like not do it all at the same time. Because that's when I feel this real pool and I've done stuff like you know, when you're trying to get ready for a gig and you're trying to remember all the stuff you need to take and then like your child just happens to have a tantrum then and you're just like, oh god, what's been like right types hairclips things like find a deal. And what else like doing a vocal warm up? Well, like, you know, and that's when it's like, so maybe as a mom, as I'm getting older or more experienced. I'm sort of like, yeah, like I had a gig the other day and I said I was like, Oh no, we'll just get my mum to like, come over. And she will look after him. And then, and then we'll like in the night and all this stuff. And I was like, No, I just want to drop him to London and let him stay with your mom. So I don't have to have to headspace. It's like, I want to have the day to just like, prepare for this gig like mentally and practically, like, I just want to do that. And like him have a great time where he's with someone that can just be present to him. And then you know, and then and actually, it was great. And I think his task didn't quite get it. And then on the day, he was like, oh, yeah, this was actually really good. It wasn't it. So yeah, ya. I come to you it is important, I think to not only you're going out to do your gigs and have your own thing, but you still have to, while you're in your home or with your family, you still need time to be away from them. Like you need that separation, like for your sanity, you know, just to get in that zone, like you talk about just how you make sure you don't forget something for you getting ready. And, you know, definitely because it's a totally different headspace. And I think that's the thing, like when, and when you're a parent, you can't like nobody can prepare you. And I think that you can't explain the feeling of like, when you go from not being a parent to being a parent and having a baby and suddenly you're like, oh my god, I can't go for a Wii when I want or, you know, suddenly you've got this other person who is like, totally dependent on you. And it's like, it's a real shift, like you almost don't exist, I know you're getting learn your identity. But at the beginning, it's really like, what the hell like where am I bought? And I'm just now I feel like I'm a vessel for this other person. And I don't know who I am. And it's quite a weird transition period. But I think, yeah, I think that actually, and that's, you know, and I think obviously, as your child or children grow up, then you get better at like, maybe being with that. And I'm not saying that, like, you're just living for your kids, and you're not in there. But I'm, but what you have is like, when you're with your child, ultimately, like you could be about to walk out the door, and they'll be like, I need a poo or like, it's like, that's the thing, you're suddenly in this other world that you don't have really all this control of time. It's like you're in this kind of situation where actually no matter what, you're there, and you're kind of when they're little, you're there, and you're kind of helping and supporting them. So actually, it's not that it's difficult for them as well, if you're totally being like on focusing completely on something. It's like this kind of balance, isn't it? So let's see. Yeah, and then and then when you're on mute when you're being a performer, or when you're doing that is like the other extreme, isn't it? Where it's all about, like, Okay, actually, I need to think about what I'm wearing, I need to think about how I sound I need to think about what I'm gonna say like, there's all of these things, which is very much a kind of insular, like, focusing on like, you and your identity, or, you know, like the kind of the other extreme and like, so I've had a few conflicting moments where I definitely tried to do both and got really stressed. Yeah, it's an intro. But yeah, so I don't and I think that kind of sense of identity, I've really, it's still something that I yeah, I'm sort of always grappling with. And I think some people as a parent would, you know, like, I remember someone saying, like, Oh, I just want it whenever I meet anyone, I just wanna go up and tell them like, oh my god, I'm a mom. This is a no baby. And I was like, wow, I kind of I mean, obviously, that's lovely. And it's lovely that they could see my mum, but I also want to go and be like, Oh, what's the opposite was like I'm saying, this is like, I know, like, you know, because I guess it's that like, you're kind of grappling with how to be all of those things and like, yeah. I come to you. Yeah, my biggest thing was when I had my boys, it's like, you do everything for them and you like you say you exist to keep them alive. And then when you see someone down the street or someone comes to the door, the first thing they want to do is see your child. It's like, Hold on a sec. I'm the one that's keeping this thing going. I'm going you know, exactly. And I know that's natural because people are excited, but it's like you just feel like you get shafted you just Yeah, it's like, yeah, okay, whatever. I don't know. And it's Yeah. And it's weird, isn't it? Because I guess everything, everything changes. And I think, you know, I was saying that, you know, I had a really difficult experience of pregnancy because I, when I was pregnant, my mom died when I was pregnant. So I kind of had this other extreme where I was like, also, I kind of went through this identity shift where it's like, I guess, when you lose a parent anyways, already, like, who am I? And how do I exist in the world and where you exist in the world. It's like a weird, it's again, it's like one of those things that you can't, it's very hard to explain. I think it's quite an experiential thing. But when through the loss of a parent is like, your position in the world changes because you have this foundation, and suddenly you don't have a foundation, I That's how I felt so and then, but then it was like, I didn't have the foundation. But then also, I'd kind of gone up a level because I then had this other, like, needs to keep someone else alive. So I felt like in the middle, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm just sort of like, I don't have any sort of foundation below me. And now someone else needs me like, What the hell, I'm just in the middle. And it was really difficult, because you know, my husband, also, like, he would normally be very doting. But like, suddenly, all his energy went towards our son, because that's what happens. You know, when you have a pet, that's also the nub of reality, I think when you have a child is that your partner kind of they suddenly they have to also try and keep this child alive, and you don't have any sleep. And you know, so it's like this other thing where the 10 that, yeah, the support you get from them has sort of shift or you're, you know, I don't know if you find that, but your role is like sort of shifted a bit, because suddenly, you're both putting a lot of energy into another human being. Yeah, absolutely. It's like your relationship between you has changed from the energy give each other to the energy that you both give to something. Yeah. 100%. And then you have to learn how to find that energy for each other, too. But actually, in the beginning, it is definitely like, yeah, it's a shift and like, so yeah, to be honest, like that period for me was just, you know, well, pretty, like, yeah, awful. Really. I mean, it's weird, because I you know, and it's so weird looking back at those early that early stage, because it's like, on the one hand, it was lovely. And Akira is a beautiful little boy. He's lovely. And he's, you know, so on the one hand, like, I have all these special memories, but I'm also like, oh my god, that was the hardest moment in my life, because I was just like, new mom, who the hell am I really sleep deprived in total grief, desperately trying to like, bring together my own, like, really trying to hold on to like my identity with you know, like, just that kind of thing. Like, it's incredibly true. Yeah. Yeah. So it was very full on. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to ask them, he said that you your face kickback was at seven weeks. Mine was at seven weeks to you. So when you said that. But within that timeframe, where you and I know we've just talked about everything that we're doing for the baby, but I guess you would have been having to rehearse the gig like we, you were still we're still in music. You just like, yeah, I must have done. I'm trying to think of that. Did I? Yeah, it was kind of blur, isn't it? I probably would have done? Yeah, I don't think I think in that time, I probably wasn't massively, but then I would know, not knowing that gig as well as you normally they'd be like, can you learn a new cell or something? So maybe I thought, yeah, I would have probably been rehearsing, but very much like the people I was playing that gig with. It was with the sugar sister. So it was with the two other females and like, one of them also had a daughter, so they would have been very, like, you know, come to our house and like a Cadillac here. Right. You know, like, it would have been that kind of way of rehearsing, you know, it would have been sort of, okay, yeah, really support. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I do remember even trying to get to the gig was just like, Oh, I just remember like, it was really stressful. Like it was, I just kind of have this memory of me and he was like, trying to, you know, trying to leg it to get a train and it's like, raining and he was like, cry. And then we're having to like go to like pub on the way to, like, change it or I don't know, some kind of like, you know, it's like, but again, it's like you're trying to make two worlds of like a world that existed like, you have to be here on time to time with a world that is like with babywearers that actually, that is not the world you're living is this to happen right now. Okay, let's stop everything I need to feed him or whatever. Yeah, exactly. It's an interesting time to doesn't exist the same way. It's definitely a classic world. Fragments on that support element, did you have other people around you? You mentioned one of your co singers in your group had a child was there people around you that could sort of empathize and help you out and go, Oh, yeah, we get take a bit of pressure. Yeah, it kind of it was weird because I met. Or I did meet like a lot of other moms. And my, my sister also had a few has two children that are before me. So she's and we're really, really close in age. And we're really close. So she was like a really big support. But she lived in Devon. So that's quite far. And, you know, I mean, I guess it's probably not in Australian terms. But in the UK. We think it's quite far, because it's like five hours away from where we were. But yeah, but I did meet a lot of other moms. But it was a really weird time for me, because it was like, I felt very isolated. Because I had met all of these people. Like, we went to NCT. And do you have entities you know, that like the parent like, so it's the kind of thing? Yeah, so you go when you're pregnant, and you meet people, and, and it was, you know, and I've now met people that are like, I've got a few really, really close friends from there. And you know, we all had babies at the same time. But it was weird, because it was like, I was dealing with this. Like, I just couldn't, I went there. Can you imagine this was like, literally about four weeks after my mom had died. And everyone's just, they're like, Hi, what's going on for you? And I was like, Okay, guys, like, I just need to, like, this is my thing. I can't not this is what's happening. You know, I didn't Yeah, it's not like I chatted about it all the time. But it's like, I think and I think people didn't realize at the time, because I was like, I recently lost my mom. And I think it was only like, a bit after that. They were like, oh my god, I thought you'd meant like last year, I didn't realize it was just now. So I kind of like I felt this. Yeah, it was quite a weird sense of like being with everyone and having these amazing people who are lovely, who I became friends with, but no one else was having the same experience. And so it was quite isolating time at the same time, because you're just feeling something so full on I guess it might be, I guess, if you're feeling like, postpartum depression or something where you're like having something where you're like, you know, you're having such a kind of different experience of things. And I guess all like, you know, people were, your worries are very different to other people's you. I mean, if someone's talking about like, the color of the nursery, and you're just like, oh my god, like, what is my life good, like, you know, and then yes, invalidate those concerns, but like, you're just in a different place. But yeah, I did. And I really worked to, you know, build those relationships and carried on nonetheless, I'm not someone that would just sit in my house like and not do, like, I'll like, go out and meet people and keep trying and go into groups, you know, and, like, I'm very much a kind of was, I don't know, like what the word is. But, uh, I'm high functioning. I am high functioning. Grievers. You know, I mean, it's not like I didn't, I could have definitely not out there. But I didn't that was that was also the thing. It's probably the way I'd love to ignore get outta bed. But I needed to because my child was like, you know? Yeah, so, but now I've got a really nice network of friends. And then even here, you know, we've met some other really nice people even moving here. And Akira is still friends with like, you know, the people that we were with in London, and I had a great that, that, that first period of time where it was like, you know, like, yeah, like doing lunch, just being on a totally different time schedule with, you know, just sort of just getting into living in the moment and stuff with with other parents and stuff, you know. But yeah, it's very mixed time looking back on that, I guess, for me. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's right. Like you say, like, you're experiencing something at the same time as everyone else, you're but you're experiencing something so much more. Greater. Yeah, the emotional pull on you is just incredible. And yeah, yeah. Then, like you said, you're talking about all the, you know, the superficial things and you're like, yeah, no, there's actually yeah, you know, this is and it's and it's not fair, because you also know that like, and that is important to those people, like, you know, like that, that is totally valid, like what they're going through is totally valid. It's just that you're going through something very and that's sometimes their experience. It makes it you know, and, and it's hard like, it's so when you lose your thing for me, that was really difficult. It's like seeing people with their moms and stuff like that was so painful, you know, there's a constant reminder so that like, you go to the playground and someone's there with their mom and dad, and you're just like, oh, like Yeah, yeah, it's all around you. Definitely. Yeah. Listening to the art of being my mom I listened wanted to ask about Akira festival. That is an awesome name we have. Yeah, it's so random. I think that we like, I remember that it was kind of random that my sister sent me. I was texting my sister on I suppose pregnant about like names. And then I think there was some like spell misspelling. And it came up with some really sort of random name that sort of sounded slightly Japanese that was like, I can't remember it was but it was really cool. And I was like, What are you suggesting this like Japanese name and then we, and we thought it was brilliant. But then it was like, Okay, well, maybe not that well. But then we were just like, okay, it was really cool. And there was a there's a director called Akira Kurosawa who my mom really liked. And like Taz, who's really interested in MMA, like loves and like so it wasn't, it wasn't in any way because we were like, We love the director, we have to honor him. It was just that we were just like, that's kind of a cool name. And there's an I think it's a my mum was was Scottish. And I think it can apparently it is, has like Scottish like, yeah, roots, and it's sort of Scottish for Yeah, maybe for girl I can't remember. But I feel like it is in Scotland, apparently. And also, apparently it's in India and has his family has his dad's Indian. So we're like, Well, clearly there's like some connection and yeah, it's bold. It's a bold choice. But honestly, I think the energy leads to Brits I've seen on videos. Yeah. Satine. Perfect. Yeah, no, it's good. He's Yeah, we haven't met another. Okay, we're actually we did meet we met one girl that was called Akira. So I think it is a unisex name. Right? Like, yeah, but apart from that, and I yeah, I haven't met another girl. And I think she was Japanese. But I think parents in Japan, it's very much like a it's quite common, like, so I think it's in Japan. It's just like, Dave or something. You know, it's not like it's not unusual. So whereas here, it's like, just great. Yeah, it's I work in childcare. So I see a lot of different dates. Yeah. When I when I eat when that I like that. Oh, well. Oh, thank, you know, what I was gonna ask you about, about him? Did you find your songwriting has has changed, or, or sort of been influenced by becoming a mother? Yeah, I yeah, I think so I don't, I feel like, it certainly has, to an extent of like, I used to spend a really long time writing lyrics. And that's like what I like doing. I mean, I feel like the process is, like, laborious, and I don't necessarily enjoy it when it's happening. But I kind of like the results. So it's like, obviously, you know, I can rise, it's really easy to write some, like kind of throwaway lyrics I can, that's something you can do like quite quickly, but then to like, really create depth and like imagery and kind of take it, I would normally spend a really long time going through it. And I found that quite challenging in a way because I'm like, Oh, that's not really the way like you don't when you're a parent, you don't really have the privilege of being like, I'm just gonna spend a few days just really delving into this time. And suddenly you're like, right, there's a window, I just really need to be creative in this small time I've got so yeah, I think that's a that's quite interesting. And then it's funny how I'm like, also on the other side of that is like, at work, I'll often, you know, we'll be writing songs really, really quickly with people like that's what you do, like, you can facilitate other people to write really quickly. Or I'm running these like, Yeah, different sort of somewhere in sessions for different organizations. And yeah, it's so I think it's, um, I feel like in terms of content, I haven't I have kind of written some stuff around it, but I haven't I don't know how the contents like changed in a way because I feel like interestingly, for me, there was so much like, wrapped up around Yeah, parenthood and loss. And it was it was so like, sort of wound up like it was so I've kind of you know, I did like lots of different like grief counseling stuff to kind of try and unwind stuff. And I feel like at the beginning when I first had a carer, I just couldn't like I really want to point out like, I feel like it sounds like a really negative one. No, because I looked like it was really nice, obviously, you know, yeah, there's all these amazing positives. But equally, there was so much there was so much wound up in it that for a while, I found it really hard to like, write anything because it just felt like, you know, it was just like, well, this is just opening. Like, there's just, I can't really express this. There's too much in here. And I think now only in the last kind of couple of years, or actually, to be honest, only really, I started writing bits and bobs in lockdown, but not really having that much space. But only recently have I started to like really have a bit more sort of headspace and like time. And yeah, I guess it has changed because I guess I have changed, in a way is what I'd say. But I don't. But I haven't written like anything up for like specifically for him. Sometimes he's like, can you write a song for me, please? He's like, one day can I write? Can I be in it? Okay, cool. So yeah, that will come but it's so hard isn't it sometimes, like expressing all of this? I think I used to like when he was a little baby. I used to just like make up little songs and sing them to him when he was a child. Like make little all these little voice notes. But yeah, it's an evolving process, I guess is what I'd say around like Yeah. Yeah, when you mentioned their hair, he's, he's saying write songs for me whenever he's obviously quite aware that what you do and what dad does? Oh my god, like, yeah, he literally, like analyzes my lyrics more than anyone, like, in a way that like, no one pays any attention. So I'll go in and he's like listening to one of my songs at night. And he'll be like, so when you say this, what do you mean? He's like, learn the lyrics. And like, yeah, he wants he picked up I have this on on one of my lyrics. It's like, the oceans part. We meet and falling through Blue scenes. Night unveils the see unraveled, you find me. And he was like, Oh, I like the way you say unraveled there. It's kind of similar to be Oxon unraveled, isn't it? And I was like, no one has ever noticed. Like, and I'm always like, inspired by BJOG, like, unraveled, that's a great word. The only person who was three at the time, I feel anyway, but yeah, sorry for interrupting. Oh, no, no, no, that literally is about Yeah, it was heading down that path about he's, do you think, is it important to you? For your identity? I suppose that he's aware of what you do. Yeah, definitely. I think it is. Because I think, yeah, it's really nice for him to kind of know us. And, yeah, and it is, and it's nice for him. And because there's a part of him as well, in a way, you know, it's like such a Yeah, so I think it is, and it's important for him also, to kind of understand us as human beings as well, like, not just as parents, which is, you know, really not I think that's that's great, isn't it? When they're like, Oh, you, you exist, and you do all this stuff. And it's funny, because he always wanted me to go to his nursery, I think, yeah, like last it was about a year ago, we were singing a song together and he said, Oh, can you sing it at nursery so I had to go and like he got got me he was really sort of nervous. But he asked me to like, sing the song together. And it was teacher so we did. And he was like saying we need like we need to do it was really cute. But then like at Christmas I when he I went and I thought okay, I'm gonna go and just offer like, you need to go and do some Christmas singing in his nursery because it's like a really as a little Christmas present to them as that I'll go and sing with them. And so he was really excited about it. And then when I got there, he was literally just so like, it was really interesting, because he obviously all the kids are there. And like you said, you work with the MPC. Like, you know, you start seeing them. Oh, yeah, they're all really you know, and they're always wanting to cut like, yeah, they're already close. And they're all right, right there. And he was a bit like, about really kind of possessive like hugging me. He was also going after I started sang a couple of songs. He was like, Yeah, can I go play now? And I was like, oh, like singer, your master, but it's like his way of processing it. So yeah, he was really really proud as well. Yeah. I feel like it's a nice thing seeing you know, he, he's frequently kind of saying like, Oh, can I make up a song? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. And then we'll, like make little voice clips of him singing and, but the hilarious thing is because he loves Bjork. He was like he thinks in a really big walk away like a really like, Yeah, he'll be like, all this other ground like, expressive way. But yeah, I think it's like, you know I love that that's his he's very much music is a natural thing for him and I love that he knows that about us and also isn't just kind of like oh yeah mom and dad now I love that he wants to listen to us like he'll let literally I'll go in and he's listening to my music on repeat but he also does it with my mom, my mom's got an album and he will also listen to Yeah, so he'll might listen to one of her songs on repeat like in the night as well sometimes. So that's really lovely as well just like having that connection with people through music. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's so yeah, hopefully. Yeah. What was What's your mom's name? She was called net net McClelland the guy Oh, that's just lovely. Yeah, yeah this thing should be done yet. Though you try so hard. Those things you won't want to? Be. Know, we've sort of touched on identity a little bit, and talked about like the pool between the two and separating and stuff. One thing that I really liked to talk to moms about so bad for us, I really like to talk to you about your mum guilt. You know, like, it sounds really bad that I'm excited about it. But yeah, what are your thoughts about it? How do you feel about it? All that kind of stuff? No, I didn't know I was thinking about this. Before the interview. I was like, how, what is what do I think about mum? Gill? Yeah, I think I don't know how I know some people suffer from it really badly. And I was trying to be like, do I like how do I feel? And I guess it's when you? Yeah, when you're trying to do staff or like, if you're like, leaving, and he, like, going to do something, and then he's really upset or something like that. Like, that's when you could start feeling it. I think when I go, like, I think, you know, I've done some kind of like residentials have gone away and done some stuff. And it's like, when I do it when I'm there. I I'm okay, like I think I'm I'm quite good at sort of existing, like we have a really strong connection, but I'm quite good at like doing stuff being present in a different thing. And actually with Akira he's really good because because we've always, like worked and stuff. He from a really young age has gone and been the tases parents or the TAs or you know, he's actually very adaptable. Like he's not, I don't think he's a massively clingy child. Because, yeah, not that there's anything wrong with that. But like, it's like, that's just always been a lifetime. I mean, like, I went back to work really early and I. But then I'll also have like, really intense time with him. So it's not Yeah, I wouldn't go back to work full time. But I think so I think he is really happy. Like when he's with tases parents. He'll be like, I didn't miss you at all, sometimes. But at the moment, he's really like, never leave me. So we kind of go between these but anyway. But he's like, Yeah, I think we're quite good at like, being he's very confident and settled in a way. So we're quite good at like, sort of it not existing separately. But you know, like doing, like if I do things, having a great time with his grandparents, and I'm like, a way and I'm doing something creative. Like what I'm doing. I'm working on doing something like I don't I don't know, I'd not I? Yeah, I don't know if I feel guilty. But I Yeah, but I definitely can feel that pool when you're like, if they're really upset or they need you or like obviously, when you're kind of going I basically one of the things I do is I work for this amazing organization called Ultra young musicians. And I go and every month I go to Suffolk and work with really great artists and I'm like the songwriting specialist there. So every month I'll go away for a couple of days. So it's like and typically when you're about to get on the train to leave, they're like nursery phones and they're like, yeah, he's just been sick. You know, it's always like that, isn't it when you go away that that's when they're just kind of like randomly they'd get sick and stuff. So there's that wasn't that but yeah, and that's when you're a bit like, Oh God, my child and they're gonna be okay and leaving I'm like really far away and then without me and yeah, so I don't know the answer to mom guilt to be honest, that's really good now how do I feel about it? That's good we go you mentioned that you do your residency at the hospital. Can you share more about what, what's involved? About the other artists? And yeah, yeah, so basically, I started working there in 2015, and it was like this project that so it's on pediatric wards on the children's ward. And they weren't, they already had like music stuff. So it's a heart and lung hospital, I started working and they already had this whole singing for breathing program there for our adults. And then they wanted to look at like bringing music for children and young people. So I went and I was like, the first person that to do it, it was like just little old me like sort of trying to bring music to this ward. And then as it started, it was and it was great. So you're doing Yeah, a real mix that went through different ages. So that can be anywhere between like, like leading mums, you know, creating a kind of music group that people like that they would normally be going to these like groups of babies, for example, it says, so you're kind of doing like that with songs or doing kind of performance, the staff more like you're going to sing soothing lullabies, or you're like doing a singing for breathing session with young people, or Yes, it's very much like led by the young people that you work with, it's sort of guided by what's needed in the situation. And then after I'd been working there for about a year, we, we were like, Oh, this is great. And people are really engaging. But there's a whole like group, so maybe sort of teenage boys, for example, as a total generalization, but it was gonna probably be more difficult to be like, you want to do a singing breathing session, you know, like that. Yeah, some, some say yes. But so then we decided, like, then I had some really good friends who have beat boxes. So then we're like, oh, let's maybe bring beat boxing. And so then it developed into this whole big project now, which is basically singing and beat boxing. And yeah, and I play ukulele there as well. And just kind of, and so we just do a whole range of things. And it's amazing, like, I get to collaborate with lots of different artists, and we go in onto the water, they kind of, you know, you'll go there. And it's like, everyone knows, okay, you come in on this day, and there'll be like, a waiting for you. And then you seal that because it's a heart as a specialist hospital. So you'll frequently have people that will come like a couple every couple of months, or maybe it's that maybe some people will say, really long term, or some people will, like keep returning because they have cystic fibrosis, or they'll come back for different treatments. So it's like, you build a whole relationship with them. It's been really intense through COVID. Because obviously, we couldn't go on to the ward for like, yeah, yeah, over a year. And, and now even now, I'm there by myself at the moment, but like, we still I still can't sing. So it's been really full on. So I've had to do a heartlight develop a whole new practice. But hopefully soon, we'll be able to, but Yeah, cuz it's like, the more that restrictions open up here, almost the more intense it needs to become on the ward because obviously COVID is still happening, especially for vulnerable people, you know, there's clinically vulnerable people that like, you know, are very affected. So, yeah, so it's been it's been a really interesting journey for me like doing that without singing, which is like exactly what I love doing. And yeah, and I do and I also work at Great Ormond Street Hospital, which is another like, that's a really big Yeah, Children's Hospital where there's like all that's has all different specialisms. And then there's another one that I do some work out to which is which we which the vocal beat that's called vocal beats the project that we do at Royal Brompton Hospital with beatboxing and, and singing and like we've got there's lots of stuff like, online there's a whole there's like a nursery rhyme album on YouTube, but it's kind of like nursery rhymes that I could deal with listen to because as a parent and as a musician, a lot of them are just like, you know, you know, I'm saying Okay, so these are like, you know, nice nursery rhymes with harmonies and things that we, you know, that I would be happy to listen to. And then we've also got like a YouTube channel that we that because we started on the project, where at first it was just from nought to 16 year olds, but then it was like, Okay, actually, there's this whole group of young people from 16 to 25, that when you leave the children's ward, you're suddenly like an adult, but you don't really feel like an adult. So we then started, like, developed a whole program to support young adults in their transition. And then part of it we like CO design the YouTube channel with them. So there's a whole YouTube channel where I've done all these like, singing tutorials and beatboxing tutorials. It's called vocal beats, and it's gone. And I wrote, I wrote a ukulele book recently. There's always like, ukulele videos and like, so yeah, there's a lot of people like hospitalized or not like for any young people that just want to engage. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah. So it's something I mean, I'm really lucky to have done it. Like, it's great to do that as well. It's like, that must be just so rewarding to like, feel like you really feel real. I hate to using the word privilege now, because it's got a new home. Yeah. So yeah, show you that, you know, yeah, definitely. And it gives you like, it's really good. I think it's a really good. I mean, it's, it helped me a lot as an artist, because I think, you know, when you're working on a ward, it's as much as it's about obviously, it's like being talented, or, you know, so it's like, you want to have a really high caliber of musicians. And that's great. And we, you know, the program is like, really specialist and really amazing musicians. So you want to have that, but actually, an equal part, it's not like you could have the best musician in the world. And they it's not, it's almost more about the personality, like they need to be good musicians, but it's about being able to kind of relate, communicate, connect with people, because like, you are essentially walking into their bedroom in a really vulnerable situate, like, you know, you're going in to that someone's like, room when they're like child might just be about to have surgery, or like you're dealing in an intimate space. So actually, it's a real human to human connection. So you need to, like, have these like, yeah, like this kind of, you need to be able to connect and be really empathetic, but like, yeah, it's just, it's really interesting. And I think that as definitely, as an artist, there's kind of, it's really helped me actually on stage. Because it's like, when you go and sing an award, you can't like just like, say, for example, you were like someone that always only ever had your eyes closed. Like if you went in there and started seeing with your eyes first. That would never work because it's like, you have to be like I'm here. I'm another human. And we're like, connecting, and I'm making you feel really comfortable. And it's 100% not about me, it's about you. And I'm not gonna sing song. Like, there's not really any ego in this. It's about me providing something that's like, great for you. You know, like, yeah, yeah, when you're on stage, it's like, actually, it's really helpful with like, how to kind of be intimate and talk to the audience and stuff. Even if you've got like hundreds of people. It's like, you can create intimacy. Yeah, yeah. It's so yeah, I remember, as a kid singing, our teacher taught us to look over the top of people's heads. He used to teach us not to eyeball people, because I think he thought it would put us off, or, you know, we'd start laughing or whatever. Then I came to this point in my singing that I thought, Oh, my God, I'm connecting to people. I'm just looking at. Similar thing. Like, you have to, you have to look at these people. Because they're in your you're in their space. Yeah, yes. No ego. It's about what you're giving to them. So like, it breaks down that barrier. Yeah, your audience almost becomes a part of your performance. Like, it's not like you're exactly. And then, like, you're all together. Yeah, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. And there are people out there who are like, you know, the greatest. They're certain artists who are so amazing. Like, they can sit on stage with, like, 1000s of people. And it's as though they're like, having a really intimate chat is that you know, yeah, absolutely. That like that relationship with them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a really interesting and yeah, you do feel really privileged. It's also you know, it's, it can also be really emotionally challenging as well. I do a lot of, you know, also working with, you know, yeah, kids with cancer are working with, oh, you know, that dealing with loss, which you do, like, or, you know, that is some of the patients we work with are really, really sick. So, that can be really challenging, but also it's like you do equally. The same reason it's really challenging. You get to like, it's also really rewarding, because you're like, Oh, my God, like this person had a really short life. And I made a really big impact. Like the other day, I was just working and I went and like, there was some parents and they were sitting in the room and their child had gone down for theater. So they're obviously like, anxious as you would be if your child is going off to theater. And I went to do music with another little kid in the bay that we're in and the mom before I started, oh my god, like I just need to show you this before she had these really beautiful photos on her phone or when her child that was like about four I think now had been a little Baby to take most photos of me singing to her child. And she was like, Oh, we've had these all printed out. Like they're in this book. You're such a big part of his journey, you know? So like, it's really nice when you're like, yeah, yes, this makes feel emotional. I know. Oh, my God, I could go on. That's a really like, light story. But yeah. I know. I know. Yeah, it's very. So it's it was interesting. Like, I would also say that as the headspace, like, sometimes I feel very pulled in different directions, because it's such, it's like, you need so much headspace that that work is amazing. But it's like you are processing so much, you know, because it's like you're taking in, you're going into like, really emotionally charged atmospheres. And you're trying to like, and you can't go, like you're trying to process something, you know, which can just be that you're, you're there and you're seeing someone dealing with a really complex situation. Or sometimes you see someone that's the same age as your own child, and you're like, Oh, my God, you know what I kind of really resonate with you. Or there's sometimes obviously you do deal with loss. And so it's like, you kind of and it's again, it's very hard to explain that, like you're in this world, and then you come home and then you're trying to like, process that as it takes quite a lot of headspace. And then obviously, then you've got like the headspace then obviously, that that headspace doesn't exist in parenting, you know, like, then you come home, and it's like, you're just there for your family and stuff. And then you're dealing with like, headspace of like, being your own artist. And so it's like, and then you're just doing the headspace of like, I really need to just sort my house out because I just need to decorate or needs to be tidied or whatever, you know. So there's so many parts of you that you're always like, Wow, it really, there's so many different directions isn't there that you feel like you're kind of being pulled in. And, and I really, I, you know, so grateful to have created a life where I am able to do music, you know, like, I'm still into, like, I'm still doing singing and performing. And then with the staff, the hospital work that I'm still doing some, like, I'm still using my musicality to do the work that I do. And that's like, you know, it's really like lovely, and you really get to see the impact of music in a way that you don't see in like many other places, I would say like it just it like, it just lands in that space. Because it's such an emotionally charged space. It's just like, you really see this kind of very immediate impact. If you're not like yeah, it's Oh, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Actually, I'm getting goosebumps when you say that. It's just like, it's so music is just incredible, like the connections and yeah, out to can transform you from one time to another and totally amazing. Yeah. 100% Yeah. And I think people are starting to see it, like a bit more in a way. You know, I guess that the way that they're seeing that, like, the impact that music can have on dementia patients or like people, you know, that it's like, how like, just stuff that is like, wow, this is kind of magic. Stuff that you see that music does, and it happens literally all constantly with the work we do. There'll be these things that have happened that you're like, Whoa, you know, like this the first time that someone has come out of surgery, like they haven't stood up for days and suddenly the music makes the baby stand out. Well, you know, this is a little you're just seeing like this amazing impact. Yeah, I mean, music is and music is the best thing ever. Think singing is like the best thing and then harmonies best really love. Honestly, when I read like Instagram bio and have kids like I'm like probably 2020 years formally in a in a vocal group. Like because. So harmonies but right right from the beginning of my life. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk that was selfish. To talk to a fellow musician. Yeah. My sister and I were there's two and a half years between us and we're both got very similar voices, except she can go lower, and I can go higher, but we're still got the same. Like when we're both singing It's really hard to tell us apart. So we Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, something about blood singing Isn't that likes people when you're related? It's awesome. And yeah, so we've always sang together. We used to mess around and do concerts on the on the Sunday afternoon like push the the coffee table. Table do concerts for mom and dad. And my parents weren't like not they weren't like musical at all. They loved music, but neither of have them actually played or sang but their siblings or mums. Dad was very, very good singer and his mom. So my great grandmother was an opera singer. Not I don't think she was a formal but she had an amazing, amazing. Wow, I never heard it in real life, but I've heard lots of stories. And then my dad's side, his sister and his brother by sing, and his mum was really good thing. And his dad was a good thing I found out later in life. So it was, but it wasn't right there for my sister we just had they just had it in your blood. Yeah. And I first discovered harmonies because dad used to play a lot of American country music like Johnny Cash and Don Williams, and don't John Denver, and they're all obviously male singers. And I wanted to sing along, but I couldn't sing low enough in their register. And because I'm an outer, I couldn't sing an octave up. I mean, I probably could now but at that point, as a kid, I couldn't. So I had to learn a way to sing along. So I just started singing in harmonies, and wow, it was just this innate thing. I don't read like I couldn't read music to get by. But I'm not like a theory person by any means. So things by Yeah. Yeah. And that used to really annoy my, my, or like my organ teacher and my chill. I could read bass clef though. I can read bass clef. Not anymore, but it was really odd how your brain works. Yeah, so yeah, my sister and I've always saying she's always saying that she and I've always seen the harmonies, and it's just we've been like that our whole life. And it's so much more interesting as well, isn't it? Sometimes it's not like, you're like, hey, I want to do the harmony. Today, we'll be talking about how your husband you and your husband get on musically when my husband is musical. And not he doesn't do much these days. But he used to play in a in like a covers band in a country pub sort of environment. And when we first got together, I realized very quickly that he actually sang the harmonies. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is gonna work. That seems like a split second. And Alison, it's okay. And I grew up listening to like, my mom listens to like Crosby, Stills and Nash and I don't like like very much like, I grew up listening a lot to Harmony stuff. And that's kind of how I learned to sing harmonies was like, you know, singing in the car with my mum, and I'd be like, I'll try and do this one. And you do that one, and then she gave to my one. I'm gonna stick to your one. Anyway, yeah, but the staves are kind of like a modern day. I mean, they're gorgeous. You're like, if you're a harmony enthusiasts, they they are incomparable. I would say, you know, I've seen this live a few times and they've got the big sisters have which is like, there's something about blood people like related to each other Singing isn't there but you have sometimes like, is that a magic that you just have? It's like you have like an you have a what's the word? Not a telepathic connection? Is that what it is? Yeah, you can actually read each other and you know what someone's about to do and you can Yeah, like you change at the exact same time it's just yeah, it's always pretty special. Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, I've been doing stuff with Yeah, with some new singers recently, some really great singers are doing backing vocals to me and, and they sound lovely, but I was thinking, I wonder if I would do like because I've always done my own harmonies and it is like in tears was saying, oh, you know, actually in a way it's always the best he was like No, I think the best is always having people that blend really well. It was like you know I think the Beach Boys like they've all got so yeah, also you have got away like when you write yourself like in your mind it sounds like Yeah, it's interesting was recorded that you're like, yeah, how so? I've always ended up my own harmonies but yeah, maybe maybe I'll graduate to but it has to be so freakin tight doesn't have someone else's harmonies on your track but they are excellent at blending. And you're so critical of it because you know how you want it done. And you know how you could do it. So you're like yeah, every little bit you like yeah, Yeah, I guess I'm just kind of in terms of stuff that's coming up is like, yeah, it's just I think I'm getting gradually, like a little bit more space and time, you know, as Akira is getting a bit older, and we're sort of settling in here. And things are shifting a bit with COVID. And, you know, you can see sort of a bit of light at the end of that tunnel that, you know, starting to find because when I first moved here again, it was like, it was again, like, how do I you know, bring my identity, this singing identity here, because I kind of, I was in London, and then I came here on a lockdown. And then I really wasn't music. And then it's like, you meet all these really lovely people. But then you kind of also want to share like the other aspect. You know, it's like, yeah, of yourself. And actually, one thing that's been really nice is when I did a gig recently, and it's a fast game I did in Brighton, which is near to where we live, which is the biggest city where the city near where we live. And you know, it's fairly close. But it was really nice to see. All of like, my new neighbors, and we've met some really great people. Yeah, all of our new neighbors, just being so like, supportive and like really, yeah, just really excited and like coming to the gig. And you know, and it's really nice, because I guess that felt kind of, I don't know why it felt so important. But I just really, you want, you know, yeah, you kind of want to feel because I guess music is like, it's such a part of like who I am. It's not this kind of thing that I'm just like, oh, yeah, I just like do this thing. It's like, it feels like this. Yeah, this big part of who you are. So it's like, you kind of want to be able to bring that aspect of yourself. And I guess it's been a real the last couple of years. For me personally, I have found it a real challenge in terms of music, because it's like, you know, all the live, like the whole live industry is pretty much sort of, you know, shut down. And then also like, not even being able to sing on the wards. So it's like, I just had this thing where I've just been, like, you know, for the first time in my life is just like, oh my god, like, I'm sort of desperately trying to do this thing. But then you're like, why this is so feels like such a kind of uphill struggle. But then at the same time, you're like, oh, but who am I if I don't do that, because that is kind of who I am. Yeah, so it's just, it's been really nice to have a bit of time to yet I kind of am starting to feel again, like, Okay, I'm reconnecting with that, you know, like that side of myself doing music rehearsing people performing in like, the last gig that I did, I really tried to enjoy the process as well, rather than just, you know, like all the because it is a bloody lot of work, isn't it when you're doing stuff, but try to enjoy, like, every rehearsals when you're like getting to hear your songs being played and singing harmonies with all these really amazing singers I was working with and like, yeah, so it's like, trying to bring that in, rather than just Yeah. Because if you don't enjoy the process, then it can just feel like a hell of a lot of work, you know? Yeah. Do you think that that's also because? Because you are now a mom. It's like, every little that you do, you're holding on to that, and you see the importance in it. Whereas before it was, yeah, I've got to get this done. And then the gigs the big thing? Oh, yeah, definitely. And I also feel like as a mom, I mean, you get really good at just like, using your time well, don't you because you have so little time, so you get really good. And you know how you asked about? I guess like creatively, a really positive thing about being a mom, is that you don't that you don't wait for inspiration. Do you? If you're like, I need to do something creative. I've got like these hours on a Friday. Yeah, that's my creative time. You know, like, it's not like, I feel like it's just like, No, that is my creative time. Yeah. And like, and also I don't feel like you know, in the evening and stuff, like sometimes in the evening, you feel like doing stuff but equally in the evening. If you're just you know, you're pretty knackered against our writing songs. I mean, it's much more of a like, I'd way prefer to, like get up really early and do stuff like that'd be my my thing. Yeah, so I guess like, because I feel it's funny thinking about all the the way we've discussed stuff because I don't, I don't want to feel it sound like a really negative parent, because I feel like I'm really not. You don't sound like that. Because, like, I feel like but it is, you know, but the reality but I think I'm also very honest, because the reality of parenting is that, you know, it is like in terms of a whole identity of being an artist being a mom. Yeah, like it really is a big shift, isn't it? You're learning it takes time to kind of come to terms and all that to kind of find who you are. And I guess for me, because I have had such an intense like You know, journey of parenthood, like loss of a mother, then the pandemic, there's two, like quite intense things have happened at the same time. So you're like processing so much stuff. And then just finding. Yeah, and then the other side of being a parent is I think it gives you like, freedom with Akira, I think it's also sometimes I'm very much someone that like, feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, quite, there's quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like quite a river. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to write this and I want it you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with a, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well German and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like, on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can, like, get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever. You know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things and having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. A new chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. next five days. Now, good on. Yeah. And look, honestly, you you have not come across as negative at all. Please don't like that. Because everything you've said, People mums have said it before. It's like, yeah, it feels the same way. It's like, yeah, it's just what it is. Yeah, and it's really hard. I think the difficulty is with parenting, is if you said to something like if someone who hasn't got a child hears this, they'd be like, Oh, that sounds awful. You know, I mean, because but what you don't always like what you can't really express is that sort of sense of love, isn't it? So you don't go around being like, Oh, my God, I love my child so much. It's amazing. He's given me purpose. It's just so brilliant. You kind of like the part that you will be like, yeah, because obviously, that's just like a given, isn't it? So it's like, another parent, you just know, like, yeah, obviously, like, you think your child is incredible. And it's the best thing you've ever done. And it's amazing. Like, that's a given. And it's really hard, because it's this, this, this, this and that, but that's the stuff you're talking about. But like, yeah, so that's the difficulty is I think people would just be like, Wow, that really doesn't like sound. Like, like the benefits outweigh the costs. Somehow, if you and I remember hearing someone say, it's like, if you tally everything up, actually, definitely the costs do not outweigh the benefit. Like there are a lot of costs, but then the benefits are so incredible in that small like that, that it makes it all worth it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. My I've got a 40 CD and 14 He's turned 14 over a six year old and a 14 year old and my 14 year old the other day. I like not the other day all the time. If we're having trouble with the little one. Alex will go this is why I'm not having kids. I'm not having children and like if he just keeps coming up with this stuff. I'm not doing that. I see how to use b I'm not doing that. Like mate but it is so good. Like you just say yeah, the hard stuff that's the stuff that's loud and gets noticed you know the the activity whatever exactly the challenges, the challenges, but it's all the other lovely things that you're not notice the Commodores isn't it? It's like the cuddles or getting woken up with a little kiss or whatever. Like stuff that you can't really explain that could happen when you have those like hugs and stuff. Yeah, and she's just hanging out and chatting or like we do some painting together and he plays on the keyboard and like just all the other stuff because it's not loud and noticeable. Yeah, he just can't say that stuff. And I said you'll change your mind one time. No, I'm not I'm not either. I think I have so many younger brothers and sisters and I was very much exactly like similar like 14 When I had when my mom had my little sister and I think for that reason. All of my family like my siblings all had kids like what it was anyway yeah, we've all had kids quite late because I think we would just sort of watch the galaxy like wow that is very intense. Yeah, like never have like loads of kids because we're like no, no, no. Yeah. Follows With us get lost. And I feel like I've got quite a unique voice as in like, I think I've got quite a unique experience of parenthood were actually like a lot when when I was going through my own journey of loss and motherhood, like I found it really, I desperately wanted to find people that had that direct because you know, when you're kind of experiencing it, you're so desperate to find connection, because I desperately wanted to find other people that had that specific experience, like, loss, but yet actually losing your mom when you're pregnant. Because that even before after feels so different, like for me, it was so specific. Yeah. And I couldn't find any, I find it really hard to find that. So I feel that I have quite a sort of unique point of view. And there's quite a big sort of gap. Like, there's definitely a space there. And I feel like when I'm in the right space, and as times moving on, I feel like I've got a lot of stuff to write or join me or some way that I can use that experience creatively. Like as an artist bringing that together, like that experience, and whether that comes through in songs or speaking like, I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I feel like there was there's this there's a story to be told in some way. You know, like, that's how I feel about it. Yeah, yeah. Good on you. Yeah. What's the space? And that's the thing. You could be helping by sharing that in your future, the amount of people that you can be helping through that, because, you know, like you said, it's hard to find people have that, that specific experience, you know, totally. And yeah, and there could be loads, but it's just like, I couldn't find like I was there, like, looking on all these platforms, like asking, you know, grief support group like stuff, you know, and it was, yeah. And there were people that had lost their mom, there were like, groups with that, but there weren't specifically in pregnancy. And I was just like, I just, yeah, it'd be really good to like, hear. And I remember listening to one podcast where there was another singer, actually, who had had that same experience. And it was very intense. And like, yeah, listening to that, but it was it was also really helpful being like, Oh, yes, someone? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah. It's important, isn't it to be to be able to express yourself and, and make those connections? Like, yeah, yeah. And it's so good, what you're doing, like, it's really great, like, made the time and space and like building this thing, because I'm sure it is making a difference to like lots of people. And I think you can leave like, it's so important, isn't it? I guess we're creatives that, you know, yeah. I imagine that for most people. That feeling of your own identity and creativity, and like, you know, grappling with how that exists, and how that CO exists? As a parent, like, yes, it's quite a big thing, isn't it? How that. Yeah. And coexist as well. Yeah, the way you described about that fear of whether you'd get back to the point you were or, you know, remaining in that space, that is a really common thing, like, especially like performers. Yeah, I've really expressed that like, because, you know, when you're, you know, you're building you build relationships with venues or, you know, other bands or whatever, and then you step away from it for for a period of time. And then it's like, you've got to start again, like, maybe someone else is running that venue, and you have the like, or who, who are you and you know, you've got to try and sell yourself again, and just remain relevant. Yeah, there's a lady Georgia fields who I interviewed last year, and she actually runs platform like her Instagram, it's called Finding the mother lode. And her her whole setup is providing resources for moms who are musicians about how to sort of navigate that whole space and how to get back into it all the emotions you're feeling and that sort of stuff. She's really amazing. Yeah, she said the same thing. It's just she thought she had this fear that that part of her life might actually be over. And that was a really horrible thought to have. Yeah, yeah. Because you can't do like, the reality is, life is different. Like you're not the thing is, when you have a kid, like you can't operate at the same, like, life has changed, hasn't it? So it's suddenly you know, you're not going to track up and down the country doing like unpaid gigs, I mean, things are nice. And you're in your 20s, where you're like, building my status as an artist or whatever, like the things that you could do. It's like, you cannot physically do that stuff anymore. Not that I want to do that necessarily. But you know, I'm saying it's like, everything has shifted, so it's like a whole like, how can you still keep building something but then you know, and my husband is like, going on tour in April as well. So then you're always navigating like his staff with my staff and then yeah, it's that's that's the other interesting side of it. dynamics. But yeah, so life has changed. And that's kind of great. And kind of challenging is when it has changed like, yeah, there's nothing you can like. Yeah. Yep. You just got to sort of work through overburdened Yeah. Yeah. And hope that more parents are like speaking about it thank you so much for coming on here though. And it's just been so lovely to chat with you. Oh, no, thank you for having me. It's been really nice to have this chat to it's been really lovely. Yeah, getting to talk about all the stuff that you don't really get to talk about. So it's so nice having someone asking questions about all these things. So thank you. Now it's been a pleasure. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcasts or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom. This thing was done yet though you try so hard those things you won't want to Oh there is inside Combi? Inside distressed distress distressed

Leah Franklin Australian plant based chef + entrepreneur S2 Ep68 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) It is such a joy to welcome Leah Franklin to the show this week. Leah is a plant based chef and entrepreneur from Mount Gambier Australia, a mum to 3 girls, and grandmother of 5. From an early age, Leah had dreams of becoming a mother. She recalls the time in year 10 when students shared what they would like to be when they left school, and Leah said 'a mum'. When she met her husband and got around to living that dream, it was everything Leah had hoped and more. Leah was enjoying life as a full time stay at home mum. After almost 22 years, Leah's marriage started to break down. She was struggling with an eating disorder which she fought hard to overcome. It was during this time that Leah also found a plant based lifestyle - vegetarian at first for her health, however she soon educated herself into the treatment of animals and found that an ethically plant based life was what she felt compelled to live. Once her marriage did finally end, it was at this time that she faced some of the most challenging times of her life, transitioning from a married woman with security, to a single mother of 3 girls with no job or financial safeguard. Thinking of the things she was good at, Leah dug deep, literally, and turned her love of gardening into a business, Serenity Home and Garden Care. She bought a $1000 ute advertised on the side of the road and returned home to her girls to announce her new venture. The next 5 years saw Leah not only pour her love into the gardens of Mount Gambier, challenge the gender stereotype of the gardening industry at the time but she developed some incredible bonds with her often elderly female clients. When her body told her it was time to give up the lugging of chainsaws and hours of gardening, Leah turned to her other love, cooking. It was through mixed experiences of being a vegan in Mount Gambier, thought she could improve the food choices for people who lead this kind lifestyle. Thus, Just Frank was born. years on, her business, and her health are thriving, AND she has almost paid off her home loan as a small business owner. Later in life, Leah has dealt with the identity shift of becoming an 'empty nester' and the different emotions brought on by becoming a grandmother. Leah shares openly and honestly today, and I am sure you will, as I have, appreciate it greatly. Mount Gambier residents may know Leah as the face behind Just Frank plant based treats and meals, but today you will find out there is so much more to this inspirational, kind and determined woman. ***Please be aware this conversation contains discussions around an eating disorder, mental health issues, birth trauma + grief.*** Find Leah on facebook / instagram Podcast website / instagram If you would like to chat about any aspect of a plant based or vegetarian lifestyle (in a non judgemental environment), Leah would love to hear from you! If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on.It is such a joy to welcome Leah Franklin to the show this week. Leah is a plant based chef and entrepreneur from Mount Gambier Australia, a mum to 3 girls, and grandmother of 5. From an early age, Leah had dreams of becoming a mother. She recalls the time in year 10 when students shared what they would like to be when they left school, and Leah said 'a mum'. When she met her husband and got around to living that dream, it was everything Leah had hoped and more. Leah was enjoying life as a full time stay at home mum. After almost 22 years, Leah's marriage started to break down. She was struggling with an eating disorder which she fought hard to overcome. It was during this time that Leah also found a plant based lifestyle - vegetarian at first for her health, however she soon educated herself into the treatment of animals and found that an ethically plant based life was what she felt compelled to live. Once her marriage did finally end, it was at this time that she faced some of the most challenging times of her life, transitioning from a married woman with security, to a single mother of 3 girls with no job or financial safeguard. Thinking of the things she was good at, Leah dug deep, literally, and turned her love of gardening into a business, Serenity Home and Garden Care. She bought a $1000 ute advertised on the side of the road and returned home to her girls to announce her new venture. The next 5 years saw Leah not only pour her love into the gardens of Mount Gambier, challenge the gender stereotype of the gardening industry at the time but she developed some incredible bonds with her often elderly female clients. When her body told her it was time to give up the lugging of chainsaws and hours of gardening, Leah turned to her other love, cooking. It was through mixed experiences of being a vegan in Mount Gambier, thought she could improve the food choices for people who lead this kind lifestyle. Thus, Just Frank was born. years on, her business, and her health are thriving, AND she has almost paid off her home loan as a small business owner. Later in life, Leah has dealt with the identity shift of becoming an 'empty nester' and the different emotions brought on by becoming a grandmother. Leah shares openly and honestly today, and I am sure you will, as I have, appreciate it greatly. Mount Gambier residents may know Leah as the face behind Just Frank plant based treats and meals, but today you will find out there is so much more to this inspirational, kind and determined woman. ***Please be aware this conversation contains discussions around an eating disorder, mental health issues, birth trauma + grief.*** If you would like to chat about any aspect of a plant based or vegetarian lifestyle (in a non judgemental environment), Leah would love to hear from you! If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Thank you so much for welcoming me into your home layout. It is such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on the show. Yeah. And I got to point out that you've got some delightful traits here for us, and you are an amazing vegan cook wouldn't be me. If I didn't have that. You tell us what you've put up? Well, I've got some Biscoff KitKat. And I've also got some Biscoff rocky road for you today. So that's having a big moment. It's massive. Yeah, and I don't only make maybe three things with it. But it's so well received, and everyone loves Biscoff if you haven't tried it, I'm gonna have something you need to try it. So yeah. Oh, man. But do you find people that eat this that aren't vegan or vegetarian? They can't believe that it's actually being? Yeah. And but believe it or not, at that about 80? We've done a bit of market research, Tony from metros sort of, you know, filled me in here and there. Yeah, that approximately 80% of my customers aren't vegan. So it's like, it's across the board. And, and literally, if you don't tell anyone, it's vegan, they wouldn't have a clue. So I promote that it's vegan slash plant based. But it appeals to everybody. So which is fantastic. Yeah. That was just like lifting the remnants in my back. There's a bit there to eat. So how did you first become interested in veganism? What was the say, when I was 30. And I'd had my third daughter, I was unwell. And when I say unwell I was it was nonspecific, like, I was just felt like rubbish, probably ate a bit of rubbish. I had all sorts of tests and nothing came back with any particular disease or chronic condition. had chronic back pain, body aches, all the things went into hospital had a had a bit of an exploratory on my lady bits. And I remember coming out of the anesthetic, and the doctor said, Well, you're good for another 10 Kids, there's nothing going on in there. And I said, Okay, so what's happening? And he said, Well, we call this nonspecific pelvic pain, so we can just start off for you. Because it's because it's cyclic, we can, we can just give you a hysterectomy, and we'll take everything out, and you'll be all good to go. Which, which back in the day back then, which was 1995 was probably happened a lot. They just don't we just take everything out. And that'd be good. Well, we know now that comes with a whole host of other problems. So I said, just give me a minute, you know, so I think I might just take I'll just take 12 months, and let's just see how I go. And I'll try a few conservative things myself. And he said, Okay, but you know, you know, this referrals for 12 months, so you know, I said, okay, so went away, I started off just taking all the junk food, a lot of chips, drink a lot of coke, you know, just the standard things that people have to call that out first. Then I took red meat out. And that made a huge difference year information. And back then, I mean, I keep I'll keep saying through this back in the day, and I know it's not that long ago, that we're talking 2526 years ago and a lot has happened since then a lot to come to the fore about gut health and you know, inflammation in your body. Yeah. And I didn't know it was inflammation then but once I took red meat out of my diet and dairy I'd always had a bit of a an issue with dairy I'd as a kid I if I ate ice cream always got a belly ache or I remember throwing up at several like school Fairs and things like that because I drink this massive milkshake. Great, yeah, come out. Of course, lactose intolerance wasn't a thing back then you didn't know anything about it. So I took those red meat and dairy out. And I just felt amazing. Within probably two, three months, I just all my pain went away my back pain was so bad. But if I got on the floor of changing nappy, I couldn't stand up, I have my then husband would have to get his arm and help me off the floor. So that that was that. And so I left in chicken and fish. And I, I kept going with that for a while. And then something funny happens when you start to then do a bit of research around. You know, what, why is that making me feel awful, that I started to then come across things more of an ethical nature around factory farming and things like that. And I was literally mortified. So I was vegetarian for quite a while. And then took out the eggs and all the things and, and of course, back then, it was like I joined a cult. My family didn't understand my my birth family didn't understand my dad, your dad listened to this, I'm not knocking him. He just he knows he used to make all the jokes about you know, or that hasn't got a face and that hasn't got a face if I was eating anything. And he always made fun of me. And I said him to stop that stop, you know, I get really offended and but I learned to just let that wash over me in the end. And thankfully now I don't have to explain myself anymore. Because, you know, look, now, the world's evolved to catch up with you caught up with me. I'm not a freak show anymore. I can actually just ask for a vegan option. And no one laughs or no one questions what I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about now. Yeah. And, and I'm sure people that aren't vegan now. If they're, you know, younger, they probably can't imagine a world where people had no concept of what I was talking about. If I if I went somewhere and asked, can you serve that without this and that? And it was like, what? Yeah, like I finally been, like not eating meat. Probably. I'm gonna say maybe 12 years. And even in that time, you'd ask people in restaurants or what's in this stock when what's in, you know, often their body and bones and stuff. And the people be like, What do you mean? And whenever we went to Melbourne, or Adelaide, no worries at all. It's like the country's charm. Yeah. Yeah. But now it's just so my it's, it's, it's crazy of I've watched it and it's like, just warmed my heart. Because it's how my business started too. It's my business started. Basically, when I met Rob, and Rob's as far from vegan as you could possibly be, say, I live in a house with him, him there and me here. And you know, we're just completely opposite ends of the spectrum. But we make it work. And that's how my business started. Because I was tired of going to a cafe, and he could get something and I couldn't get anything, we couldn't go together. And both have something. So I just thought, I think there's something, something there. So that's how it started. And like you said before, 80% of your customers, certainly Metro vegan anyway, so it's just things are amazing. Regardless, it is beautiful. And for someone who says, I'm not sure if I'd like it, I've don't eat vegan foods. If you've never eaten a banana, you've never eaten so Tanner's. I'd like to just name off our 1000 foods that are vegan, they're accidentally vegan, if you just want to put them in that category. I mean, and vegans just it's in inverted commas. It tends to make some people shy away from trying something. So yeah, sometimes you need to change the language, which the diehard vegans don't like. But I, my philosophy is if we can get 80% of people eating less meat in a week, it's going to make more of an impact than 20% of the population only being vegan and the rest not doing anything. So if you add that all together, I think it is going to make more of a difference. So I'm all for incremental changes, if that's what you need to do, but definitely more plant based meals is the way to go. And being accepting of people like I feel like the hardcore, it's like it's my way or the highway, sort of off putting. Yeah, that's that's sort of sad. It's like it's alienating to Pete yet. I want to educate, not alienate, I want to I want people to be able to say to me say anyway, because people know why they should. They don't know how they should. Yeah, that's what I think I think people need to be shown how to do it or, or have some tips on because I take it for granted that everyone knows how to cook something without meat, eggs or dairy. But it's not if that's what You've been brought up with and that's what you've done your whole life. Yeah, that's it's hard to know. Yeah. I remember when I started work as a first job I had outside of my family when I was not eating meat at me, and the girls will operate, what do you eat? Like everything else except for me. Like, it was just people couldn't get their head around that there is other things in the world, everything that doesn't come from animals. Like it's just. Yeah. And that was only 10 years ago. Yeah. It's just Yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Is it is, but it's, it's coming along? Yes, the fastest growing social justice movement in the world. So. And I think too, because of this whole focus on the climate to show the meat industry contributes so much to that, you know, the US so much water, they the emissions from the cows. And actually, someone told me the other day, that the biggest consumer of fish in the world is the meat industry, because they catch the fish to feed to the cows. And I don't think many people would know that. So this is the first time you're hearing that, and I hope you feel shocked. You're shocked desire was, look, it's important. We could You could sit here all day and talk about the statistics on some things, you know, it's terrifying, really. But there's no excuse for not knowing any more. We've got the internet, Google it. It's not, don't don't shoot the messenger. You've got your fine if you really want to know. It's all there. And once you know some of the stuff from listening, and not if you've watched any of the documentaries, you can't unsee it either. So yeah. So yeah, off my soapbox now. It's a great, it's a great topic. And I like those conversations peacefully with people. I don't. I'm not here to have an argument. And I and I've been targeted many a time at a at a dinner where someone knows I'm the I'm the vegan at the table. And you know, it doesn't happen very often. But it has happened to me before where I've sort of been baited, if you like, and goaded into a. And I just put my hand I'm sorry, I'm not I don't, I won't debate it. This is where I'm at with it. And you can do your own research. But I'm certainly not going to have a stand up argument with anybody. Yeah. And I think sometimes that says more about the person that's doing that, but they hear that they're feeling insecure about their choices, and, and it's coming out in that way. But yeah, I people used to say to me, people still do say to me, if we're out for tea, and they're eating meat, and they're like, oh, sorry, we're eating this in front of you. I'm like, You do what you do. Like I've never judge anyone names. So you know, if you want to eat it, you eat it, that's fine. That's up to you. I'll do my thing. You do your thing. And, you know, for feeding to get such a bad rap, you know, make somebody like a joke on social media or, you know, best way to start an argument and barbecue invited vegan, you know, like all this sort of rubbish. It annoys me people that don't choose not to eat animals, I think the most kind and caring people you'll ever find. Definitely, definitely. And there's always those figures and I'm doing the right Yeah, but there's always those Christians too. There's always those everything is yeah, it's it's the person not the cause. Yes, that is so true, right? That person. If they weren't vegan, they would be something else. They'd be an extreme something else. Yeah. So it's unfair to label all vegans as extreme because we're not. We just want a better world. I guess. I started it for my health. And that's why I went forward with it. At first, but once I knew, I knew so I was talking to someone the other day actually, he started for the health too, and then discovered more and more and same thing that ethical side comes in. It's very interesting. It is an interesting topic, but yeah, yeah. So tell me more about your business. What sort of products are you making in your business and and what's your sort of most popular? Well, the snickers Cup, the snickers cup? I do digital invoicing so I can tell in my program, what's the biggest seller and which outlet sells the most and whatnot and snickers four to one of everything else. Close second are the Biscoff rocky roads coming along? Quite quickly behind it, but the granola bars are probably set canned, and I've, I've packaged those now, I'm not a fan of the plastic, but due to the health regulations, I have to have them in packaging at in the shoes of things, fridges and things like that. And at this point, there's no other option that's come up, you're working on lots of different options that are a bit more, you know, compostable, compostable. So that will be good. But I've got the packaged granola bars for different outlets now. And they're proving to be really popular because people can pick them up and throw them in the bag, and you know, take them to the gym or whatever. So that's really good. But my range of granola is amazing. It's, I mean, it's like mine. But the sales speak for themselves and the feedback that I get with my package granola, and the original Dayton Arman has been around for seven years now, that was my original one that I took to the markets when I started to do the markets. And I haven't changed the recipe at all, it's stayed the same. And I'm passionate about the same recipe, rub off and jokes with me, and any says, oh, you know, you know, go and get that recipe and, you know, you probably should write that recipe down or, and I'll say something about an ingredient who was so go and check your recipe. So it's not actually written down. He says, how does that work? I say because I know, I just know, I know the recipe. I've, I've scaled that one from, you know, six little bags that I used to take to the market to you know, I make 20 2300 gram bags in one batch of each flavor. So you know, the bowl has gone from, you know, the business can't see but it's gone from this to I've got these massive big stainless steel balls on the bench, you know, that I'm super, super proud of my granola, I'm proud of all my products. I'm really proud of my products. I've gone into sweets, but it didn't start like that it started with savory meals. That's how it started. But it's just evolved into sweets and, and most of them are, you know, whole food, sweets with, you know, not massive amounts of sugar or anything like that little bit of sugar in the chocolate. And then it was my youngest daughter who was vegan for some time and she just said to me one day she said mum, she said I love all the healthy stuff or the you know, air quotes again, the healthy you know, super wholesome stuff. But she said I'm craving something rubbish. something sugary, something she she's the she was the one that got me to start with the donuts. Yeah, she said I just would love a doughnut that's vegan, but it's oozing sugar and you know, all that decadent stuff. And I sit on it goes so against my grain. She said no, ma'am, but, but maybe that's what people would like. And I went oh, like it was like a cheddar arm up behind my back. Please, please. So I relented and the donuts went gangbusters. Yeah, they were just couldn't keep up with cheese, which would call me every second day. Um, random doughnuts. Doughnuts. And yeah, I had my whole bent kitchen bench was just wall to wall doughnuts, you know, laid out, you know, steaming, you know, calling and I was icing and getting them into containers and labels and taking them back down to shoes apples and, and, and my daughter's gone. See what I'm talking about? Mom? Okay, you're right. So then, you know, I've got I've got a few lines that aren't the wholesome type. But you know, people love those as well. So there's a place for both. Yeah, but I will always always focus on the whole food. You know, the really decadent or the decadent, healthy lines. And I'll always have some decadent, not quite so many lines. But it's the balance. Yes, exactly. Balance. Yeah. So you you make it all here, nothing gets made anywhere else will perish. And with oh, he saw with these two hands. Yeah. And I thought and I thought and had it suggested to me many a time that I should scale the business and, you know, do more and send it to more places and get it out there more. But I'm a real people person. And I I don't know, maybe it's cutting off my nose to spite my face because I'm sure the business could be much bigger. But I I want it to be my two hands. And I want to I like to hand deliver my things, you know, go down to Metro and Tony and I'll have a hug and stand out the back and talk about the meaning of life. And yeah, we talked for five minutes about just Frank and you know what she's doing there and then and then we go Want to other things and, and I love that. And if I don't if I don't do that I'm just in the kitchen by myself. And that's quite isolating at times, just to be by yourself, you know, with your own thoughts. And when you're an anxiety sufferer like I am your own thoughts aren't always the best thing to be with by yourself. But yeah, I love to get out. And sometimes if I'm lucky, I'll I'll sit in the cafe and I'll see somebody eating my food, which is like, blows my mind every time I'm nearly eight years down the track and to see someone with a plate with my food on it, enjoying it with their coffee. Yeah, it's us to have to pinch myself. It's pretty awesome. It is pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome. I love that. So you do have some of your products do go to Adelaide when you go to Adelaide. With Yeah, take a I've got a cafe in West Croydon up there. Joy flora, and beautiful Mark. He he supports my little business and his customers love my goodies. They're completely different to what he has there. So yeah, he's he's always flicking me a message saying when you're coming next, I need some more. Or if my girl was at home, they'll take they'll take him. They've just taken a delivery back this weekend for him. So he claps his hands. He says, Yeah. And he has to ration it out. Like yeah, keeps it keeps it in his cool room. And he just puts out a couple at a time because he says he wants them just buy it all. And then I don't know when you're coming next. And freight so expensive. It's just, it's just ridiculous to probably cost me $40 To send him a box, and you lose that personal connection is so cool. Yeah. You say, Yeah, I love it. I love going up there and seeing him and we have a have a certain. And again, talk about the meaning of life. And I don't know, I just seem to attract these really deep people. And you don't talk about the weather. We talk about other stuff. And I love it. You love it. So you've also had a gardening business in the past? I have, I have and a lot of people don't know that. And what a contrast from this to that. So in 2009, after 22 years together, my husband and I separated. And I've been a stay at home mum for you know, probably 16 of those years and had done paid work in that time. But I've always we made a we made a very firm decision together when we first had children that I would stay home. And he would go to work very traditional. Probably the feminists now would be like, What the hell? What century are you from, but we loved it. We absolutely loved it. It was that whole, you know, he had well, he'd call me he was he at the time he was a rep on the road. And he would call me and he would say I'm going to be home at 530. So 530 on the dot, he'd walk in the door, he'd go straight to the bedroom get changed, and I put tea on the table, the kids would all come in and it was our family times that we'd sit down and talk about our day and it was the highlight of the day. And you know, he had come home to the fire was going and he quite often comments on it's just so nice to walk inside and the kids were laughing and laundry they were laughing every day. And mum wasn't either. But it was a very traditional in air quotes, you know, that kind of situation that we had and we just we both loved our roles. So, when we separated I thought what am I going to do? So I was offered a part time job which I was happy to take and we agreed when we separated on a 5050 split which we discussed at length and we were both happy with that situation we were freehold so we just decided who was having what car and I'm making it sound very cold and emotionless. But you know, I think we can probably you can probably gather that it wasn't like that. But for the purposes of just saying how it was. And we had also we'd been in the house for 20 years so it was very firmly a family home and and when we bought the house there was no garden there was nothing so we I'd spent the majority of that time building the most beautiful if I do say so myself, it was just a magnificent garden with big trees and you know, it was gorgeous. And my ex husband wasn't a big fan of gardening on that scale. So it was agreed that I would buy him out of his share. And he would he would then go on and and do whatever he needed to do with that then the girls would then stay in the home as well. So That's what we agreed to say. We got the finances sorted. We, we got a solicitor each for the purposes of paper signing, not for arguing. And he went off and sign his and I went off and signed mine. My solicitor highly encouraged me to take him to the cleaners basically, and take more than what we'd agreed upon. And when I, when I said to him, No, I'm not doing that. And he, he said, Well, I can't believe you're gonna do that cuz you are entitled to more. And I said, that's what we've agreed to. We've worked together to build what we had. And I said, No, my girls are watching. And I want to be able to look at my children one day, and then look at me, and no, I didn't take their dad to the cleaners, because there's no need for that. And I just didn't want to do that. So we settled and, you know, did our thing. I went off to the bank, and made an appointment and sat down with the, the male bank person, you know, stated my case, I had a part time job coming up, and I had more than more than, you know, like, I had more than what I needed to, you know, do what I needed to do. And he flipped through his papers. And he said, All I can see, you know, I can see your husband's name here as the financial contributor. I mean, it were the house was jointly owned, but he, he was the one that, you know, his name was on the finances and things like that. And he said, I can't see. Can't see here anywhere where you know, you've done too much. And, you know, you'll need to, because, because stay at home, mother was not only raised the children, yeah, the next generation of taxpayers, if you like. So he said, Well, I said, Well, I've got part time work. So and it was, you know, like, for me to pay his share out was, you know, it wasn't a massive, it's not like I was I was asking for the whole amount. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And he said, Well, you need to, you need to go out and get full time work. And you'll need to do that for 12 months before, we will look at the fact that you can actually contribute to your repayments. So, I mean, I'm reparable about that. Now, when I look back, and every time I think about it, it makes my makes me so angry. But at the time, I understand they had to, they had to know they were going to get their money, I get that. So I walked out of the bank, devastated and devastated. It's probably an understatement. But turns out that because of time, my husband didn't want to wait. So he ended up buying me out. But he he got he got approval medically, he got overnight approval, he bought me out, paid me out the whole thing, the whole thing was settled. So my girls and I moved out, got a rental. And the only way I could get the rental because I had no rental history was to pay six months rent upfront. So out of my share of our settlement, I had to take $8,000 and pay for a house for us to live in for six months. And then I thought, well, what am I going to do for work now? Because you know, if I'm going to buy a house, eventually I'm going to need full time work. So I thought I have no idea what I'm going to do. Say, when one day I was driving along, whatever new and I saw this, little youth parked on the side of the road, and it got me thinking I thought what am I good at? Well, I'm good at cooking, and I'm good at gardening. And there, that's the extent of my skills, really. So I thought, right, so anyway, I went back, I drove back to the UK, and I got the guy's phone number and I called him up and I made an offer and it was it was like a $1,200 unit nothing. I got it for $1,000. So I called up my girls and I said I need someone if I come home. I need to pick someone up and come back and help me pick this caravan. They're like, what the hell man? What are you doing? And I said, Well, I've just bought this little unit. I'm going to throw my gardening tools in it. And I'm going to try and get some gardening work around town. And they said a rodeo. Okay. So I got the you took it home threw all my tools in and at the time I lived. You know, we live in a colder SAC and Father Brian Ashworth lived at the end of the cold reset for the Anglican Church. And him and his wife were walking past and then I said oh, what are you what are you doing here? And I said, Oh, well um, I didn't know what I was going to do for a job. So I'm going to see if I can get some gardening work. Ah, well, we've got some things down here that we need doing. They had like a terrorist garden, and he couldn't get up anymore. The steps to do the gardening, so they got me to have a look. And I said, Yeah, that's great. I'll come down to your wedding and mow your lawns. And, of course, big congregation at the Anglican Church isn't. So Brian told someone and that person told someone and before I knew it, I had six or seven clients. So I thought, well, I probably need to get myself a an accountant to sort out all these 1000s and 1000s of dollars that I'm going to make. that I needed to, I needed to get tongue in cheek for sure. I needed to sort my finances out. So I invested an accountant and I went to the accountant, and we're going through all my, my things. And he said, so watch this lump sum of money that you've got sitting here in the bank, which was the settlement from the house. And I said, I Well, that's my, that's my settlement. And he said, Well, why is it sitting here in the bank? He said, You know, you would probably really should be doing something with that. And I said, Well, I wanted to buy a house, but the bank have refused to give me any money. And he said, Well, that's interesting. He said, Have you sought the services of the financial advisor? And I said, No. And he said, Well, Marian Kilsby, she's just around the corner. at MITRE, she said, You, you need to pop around there and have a chat to her, she'll be able to help you out. And I said, Ah, you know, Jennifer really want to do that I'm pretty broken by that. And I just don't want to be refused. Again, I'd rather just sit the money there. And I'll just see what happens. It's a nice, and I think she'll be able to help you. So I made an appointment with Marian, I'd never met Mary. And before I got to my appointment, and I had, I remember having a hanky stuffed in my pocket, and I was walking my eyes, I just didn't want to have to go in there and, and go through this again. So she called me in, got to walked up the hallway and got to the door. And she stopped at her door to sort of, you know, flag me through and she looked at me, she could see I'd been crying. And she said, what's wrong. And I said, I, you know, I'm just broken by all this. And you know, I just didn't really want to have to go through this whole situation with the bank. And she kicked the door shut with her stiletto heel, she pushed a box of tissues across the table. And she said, that'll be the last time we're going to cry about this. She said we've got some work to do. So we we spent the next hour going through everything. And she said, Nope, she said, look, let's let's get your house, she said, have you seen something you're like I see I have I've seen this beautiful house that I would like to buy. And it's not huge. And it's you know, it's an older home. And I really, really love it. And it's just I probably didn't realize at the time, but it was a similar style to the home that that had been married to her money, it was just a bit smaller. But the layout was literally exactly the same just minus didn't have the big family room, and I didn't need that anymore. So she said, Well, you go and get yourself an inspection. And this is the amount that I think we'll be able to get for you if you want to go and borrow some money from the bank. And I said, Are you are you joking? She said, No, no, she said, off you go. So I booked it. I booked an inspection at the house and went through the house by myself. I didn't take the girls, I just thought I just need to do this in case in case it all comes back to bite me. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up about it. Had a look. Went back to Marian and I told her about it. She said if you go and make an offer, go make an offer on it. So I made an offer. And we did a bit of that was in forwards and put the offer in, gave that to Marian and she called me that night and she said well, you've got phone approval from the bank. And like I literally dropped to my knees. And I said, Don't tell me you're not joking. I said what are the chances of this all going sour? And she said, it's probably not. It's it's for real. And you know, I think I think you'd be right. So back to the real estate agent and my loan was approved and I bought my house. So that's how the gardening happened. And the gardening just grew and grew and grew. And it got to the point where I couldn't keep up anymore by myself. So I employed someone that didn't end up end up working out because you know, it wasn't quite the right person. And by then my body was pretty broken. I was I mean I was wielding chainsaws and you know, I my husband, my ex husband called me up one day and he said, he said someone's just come back to work and told me they saw you on wheel street with a chainsaw cutting the limbs off an overhanging tree on the footpath. That's right. What are you doing? I say, Well, I'm trying to earn a living here. He said, My goodness. He said that's a lot. And I said yes, a lot. But I did that for almost five years. And my customers were when I look back on that my customers were I really struggled with empty nesting. And my customers were my people. They were my family. They were I go Mostly for the elderly, mostly elderly women who were on their own. I had a few beautiful elderly gentleman as well. He lost their wives. And almost every gardening, like I booked, I booked an eight hour day. But probably six hours was working two hours was cups of tea. Yeah. So I mean, you can't can't garden for an 85 year old without having a cup of tea at the end and connection for them as well. I had one particular lady who used to wait on the footpath for me to come, she was coming at a certain time. And she would, she would wait out for me. But the bonds are built with those customers. Where was everything for me, they were they were like another family, it was the best. So yeah, I did that. And then my body started to break. And my GP at the time was one of my very, very dearest friends. And she kept saying to me, Leah, you just cannot keep doing this. I had neck issues, I had shoulder issues, my back was virtually broken. And I just kept going and going and going because A, I didn't want to let my people down. They were I just couldn't let them down. And I didn't know what else I was going to do for a job, or now had this mortgage, which wasn't huge. But I used to have, I used to wake up in the night in a hot sweat. And I used to lay there and like I'd wake up startled. And I'd think and I'd be crying. And I'd say to myself, You are totally responsible for this mortgage on your own. Like there's, there's no one to bail you out. Now, like I said, it wasn't big, but just that, like when you've been married for so long. And you've always got that person next to you. If you know if something happens, you've you've got them and you can feed off each other and get through it together. But when you when you're doing it by yourself and I was doing Need I say or hesitate to say man's a man's job. It was a male dominated business that I was working in. I did find out once there was a crew of gardeners who have more than one vehicle around town. That one Christmas one of their Christmas shows they had they were making bets on how long it would last in the business. They were laughing Ah at my at the fact that I was doing it. And they were making taking bets as to how long I would be in the business. So but anyway, five years ago, five years. So yeah, that was that was seen, well offered, I would have thought that would have upset me when I was told that. And I was told by another gardener who was at that Christmas show. And he came back to me and he said that we said you wouldn't you should have heard them. I thought it would have made me sad, but it actually infuriated me. And it drove me to work even harder. And it's probably how I broke myself. Because I'm like, I'll show you Yeah, and then and then now, you know, I had a lot to prove I had a lot to prove to myself and to the fact that it was a male dominated industry that I was working in. And at that time, I was the only female out there doing it. And I think that's why I appealed to the female, the elderly females that I worked for, because I think they felt safe. I had the keys to a lot of gates and gardening sheds and and I often wouldn't tell them I was going to be there I'll just open the gate and walk in knock on the door. So I think they felt safe me wandering around the yard. And yeah, you know, it was a different a different thing for them rather than having a guy No offense to the guys. But yeah, I think it's just a fact very, very reasonable to say. Absolutely. So my body was telling me it was time. And I had been sharing recipes on my Facebook page just to my friends, you know, I made this and, and it's funny a memory came up the other day. And it was funny how many people would say Oh, well, that's really nice. And then I'd write I'll share the recipe with if you like, and someone would say, Oh, yes, please. And then someone would go, Oh, me too, please and meet it. And it just went from two people asking for the recipe to you know, 789 people and then I started a blog. So I had a blog and I'd share my recipes on the blog and that that grew. And then I thought, Ah, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to do a little trial. I'm going to make some morning teas and I'm going to take them to a couple of places for free. And I'm not going to tell them they're vegan. And I'm just gonna say so Marian from modest home loans was one I messaged her and I said hey, Marian, you want to be part of a little trial. Just want to bring in some morning teas for you. So off, and I just want to see how they use and mortgage real estate was the other. So I did that for a while and they're like, ah, that's amazing. Yeah, where were you know, it was no one no one could tell. And that's good. Then I then I started making morning teas and advertising them on my Facebook page that I would deliver to workplaces. And that went really well. Then I thought, Oh, that's cool. Maybe I could make a menu. So I made a menu. So it was a three course lunch. So it was a snack, a main and a dessert. And I made a different menu every week. And people could order from the menu. And they would, they would pay me in cash when I got there, or they could direct deposit and, and I just put them in my car and I would drive them around. So I registered my kitchen and got all that past and started that. Now I was working. I was working four days a week in my gardening business from 630 in the morning to whenever it was dark was when I backed the youth back into the driveway. Fly out of the year on a Thursday night jump in the shower. check my emails to get all my how many people were going to order I'd literally do an all nighter and I kid you not I would I would work and you asked my girls, the couple that were still home. I would work literally through the night to four or five o'clock in the morning. Have quick sleep, jump up, pack all the orders up. And Friday was delivery day. So I'd work Friday morning, throw everything in the car and 11 o'clock and deliver everything. Well that just got out of control. Like you got to be careful what you wish for. So that so then I cut Thursdays out of my gardening business. So it was manage Tuesday, Wednesday gardening, Thursday, Friday menus. That group started doing markets on the weekend. So it was Monday, Wednesday gardening, Thursday, Friday, Saturday preparation for a Sunday market. And I was just working I was working 18 hour days every day. So it was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday gardening and getting out of the ute, throwing all my dirty clothes in a pile having a shower, getting dressed and then straight into the kitchen. It was ridiculous. Yeah. And it wasn't long before. My not only my physical body, but my mental health just did a spiral when I can remember the day that it happened. It was like a, it was an actual moment that I remember, this is out of control, and I can't keep doing it. But then, then I just don't know how to put it into words. I'd built these businesses from scratch. And I still get really emotional about my gardening business about letting it go. Because the process of letting something go that you built from scratch. And that was a crutch for me through some of my darkest moments after my marriage breakup. And I couldn't just give these people to somebody else. Yeah. You had a real relationship, didn't you? Yeah. And Mike can bless his heart. He said, You know, you've got a sellable business here. Let's let's value the business. And because I had one, I bought a beat up all year, but I upgraded to a near New to our highlights that I paid cash for. I had a trailer built from scratch a great big trailer with all the toolboxes and I paid cash for that. And I was so proud of what I've built. And my ex husband was proud of me too, you know, he, he, he was really proud of what I what I what I built and how I pulled myself up and got back on my feet. And I said to my accountant, I can't. This is exactly what I said to myself, I can't give I can't sell my people. And he just looked at me and he said, I know what you're saying, but, but this is a sellable business. I said I can't sell my people. That's the bottom line. I understand that I'm probably throwing money down the drain, but I can't do it. I said I can sell all my plant and equipment. But I need to find homes for my people. So I hand picked other gardeners that I knew. And I had a couple of guys that had often helped me throughout the years. And if I had a really heavy job that I couldn't do, I call up these couple of guys who are friends to this day. They're just the most beautiful men. And I rang them and I said, Hey, how many people can you take on because I've got this lady and I think she'd really suit you. And I've got this gentleman who's got a big lawn so your ride on mower would be really cool. And between us, we worked it out. They took they took this one and that one and I took I met them there and introduce them to these people. I couldn't I couldn't it took me it took me 12 months to ease myself out of the business and and it wasn't until I knew everybody was okay. That I let it go and I still kept to to Alienware I was doing just Frank full time and I was in the full swing of it. I had two beautiful women that I kept that I just couldn't let go. And I knew one sadly was not going to be with us for a long time. So I kept her to the end. And the other lady I eventually left Got it because I just couldn't keep doing it. So that was how I got out of gardening. That's massive, isn't it? It was it's a real big, almost grieving process. It was that 12 months, I'm moving through those stages. That's huge. And my partner now Rob, he, he held my hand all the way through. At first, he was a bit like my account, and he's like, just sell it, let it go. And he saw how many meltdowns I had. I said, I can't and it won't matter how you how you explain it to me. I just can't do it. It just meant it. Just it was like it'd be like selling my mum. Yeah, because that's who they were to me. They were just, you know, beautiful, beautiful people, and I couldn't do it. So I sold my plant and equipment. And that was easy. Yeah. It was easy, but But I worked hard for those things to that I partnered with those and I swapped the Toyota Hilux for a little Holden Combi van that I had signed, written with just Frank emblazoned all over the site. And I had a different vehicle to sell a different thing. So yeah, and it just grew. She's apples and matrei. I cannot speak highly of for the support they've given me Tony from Metro was the first person to put a hand up and say, bring it in here. We'll have it in. I took my first products in there. And she's apples. Yeah. There have been amazing they. They let me do they just give me free rein. Yeah. I know. That probably sounds if they they'll listen to this. And they'll be like, Yeah, we pretty much do. I mean, I just I just went in the other day and spoke to Raleigh and I said, Hey, Raleigh. I've got he handles all the all my granola on the shelf. It's his department. I said, Hey, Raleigh, I've got a new product coming that's that I want to put on the shelves. It's not not refrigerated. It's a do it. Like a make it home mix in a bag? Yeah, cool. Let us know when you bring it in, we'll make it make a space on the shelf. I mean, how good is that? Yeah. I mean, they're just, they're just that my biggest supporters, and they support so many small businesses in our community. You can ask for more than they can. Yeah, that's fantastic, isn't it is it is I'm so grateful. And as I said, Tony has been a mentor as well. She's mentored me through some break down moments where I've said, I don't know which way to take this, you know, maybe I'll just throw it all in on it's too much. And she said, just take a minute, just scale it just take out the things you don't want to do. You know, she's, she's sat there and talked me off a cliff a few times. And she doesn't need to, she probably wonders why haven't come in lately, but to have those chats, but I've I think she's taught me a lot about how to manage things. And don't let things get out of hand, don't do things you don't want to do say no, when you need to say no. And I'm pretty good at that. Now. Yeah, that's a big thing, too. For women, but also people that are really highly sensitive energetically, you are, because our first instinct is to just please go yes, no worries, I'm gonna do that. And then you think about afternoon, Oh, crap, how am I going to do it, and then you burn yourself into a hole to satisfy other people. So that is a big thing to be able to say that. And you know what, I'd be lying. If I said it also wasn't an ego thing. Yeah. Because, of course, if people love your stuff, and they want it, you just want to keep on giving, giving, giving, giving, because he would I feel would I be to say, you know, no, I don't want you to showcase my product, you know. And if I was 20 years younger, maybe I would have scaled it, maybe I would have, maybe I would have found the right person to help me and I would have scaled it. But you know, I don't want to do that. Now. I want it to be me. And I love and I've contained it now. You know, you've made it manageable for you to keep maintaining what you're doing because I was going to burn out for sure. And I saw that and my mental health was suffering big time. And menopause is a bitch. Let me tell you menopause is nearly bought me unstuck. Anxiety was like it hit me. You know, I thought menopause was hot flashes. And that's really all I'd seen my mum go through. Yeah. And yeah, when it when it hit, it was a bitch. And it nearly took me anxiety was mean, Rob will tell you I used to. It kept me in the house. Yeah. And when I was when I was delivering meals, I would I would get all my deliveries lined up ready to go. And I would quite often have to call him because we didn't live together then. I would quite often have to call him and he would. He would literally have to talk me step by step out of the house, to the car. And to the first place once I was at the first place. I was fine. But actually leaving the house and I think it was a bit of impostor syndrome, as well. I think I was like it, I was fine while I was cooking it was fine while I was getting the orders off my website and you know, my emails and all the things, but once it came to actually coming face to face with the people I was like, Who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? With your name written on your car driving around, pretending you're somebody you know people think you do these things and oh, wow, that's so cool. She's, you know, got this successful business. They really have no idea what goes on. In your mind sometimes. Yeah, because it's not it's not all what it appears on the outside. I want to go to a point where you you talked about being an empty nester. So you have three daughters. I do, obviously they're not living in your wetsuit. I have two in Adelaide. So my eldest and middle daughter, Cassie and Mia. They're both in Adelaide. And I had Georgia here and Matt cambia. Thank Good. Thank goodness, one of them stayed. I yeah, I don't, I totally understand why they've, you know, gone. Mia went off to uni when she was 19. And and I remember driving my husband I had had separated not long before. And I can't swear because he swore when he said it to me, but I can't swear on here, can I? So we were so we we made a pact with each other when we separated that we would always parent Well, together, we would continue to parent, our girls were 2119 and 14 when we separated. So they weren't babies. But it's still it's still impactful on the family unit. No matter what age they are. But I guess a little bit easier when they're older. They they knew things weren't great at home. So the writing was on the wall. But we We vowed that no matter what happened between us, we would we would still do our best to parent with the first 12 months were a bit bit rocky while everyone navigated and there was a lot of hurt and the normal things that go on in in a breakdown. But we wanted to drive me to uni ourselves together. So what who does that who separates from the husband then gets in a car in a confined space for five hours and drive somewhere? You can't get out. But you can just open the door. It was quiet. Let's just say it was quiet. So we drove her up to Flinders, and we took her in and it was orientation day and all the things and we, you know, took her up to her room and we got her settled and then it was time to go. Well, me, Cassie, Cassie had moved out that Mia was the second one. Cassie was still in town that me was the first one to move away. Say I was I was such a hands on mum. I'll stop short of saying I was a helicopter parent because I don't think I was a helicopter parent. I've actually asked my girls since that terms been thrown around. I've said to my girls, do you think I was a helicopter parent? I said no. But I just was there. I was just there. When I was needed. I was there and sometimes probably when I was not needed or not wanted I was there. But it was it was gut wrenching to leave her there. And we walked out of we walked out of the building. And we were walking back to the candidate like I was sobbing. I was sobbing and he was walking behind me. And he knew what kind of Mama was say, you know, he probably shouldn't have said it. But he said, What's wrong with you? And I turned around, I said, you know what's wrong with me? And he said, Oh, I don't know why you're crying. I'm actually not fucking dying. Well, it's a long way from Adelaide to make me when you're just looking out the window. You're not speaking to each other because I never spoke. I never spoke to him all the way home I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. I cried. I cried all the way home and I probably cried for the next week, because I knew I knew she wasn't coming back. I knew once she went to Adelaide and she found her new life. She wasn't coming back. And that's okay. That's okay, because that's what they're meant to do. And, and we're meant to let them spread their wings and fly. But nothing prepared me for, for how I was going to navigate that myself. And because I'd been such a hands on Mum, I didn't know who I was. And I think even when, when our marriage was nearing the end, I could see the writing on the wall, like, you know, the oldest one starts leaving the house a bit more. So you've got to, and then the next one starts to go. And we had a, we had a five year gap between our middle daughter and Georgia. So say, they the two were gone, and Georgia was still home a lot. And then they'd come back. And you know, things ebbed and flowed. But the times when it was just Georgia and, and my husband and I, I remember, I could feel it, I would look, I would look around and I could feel the anxiety and I was looking around, I was thinking like, I'm doing the movement, no one can see me, but I'm doing the movements. Now. While I'm telling you, because I can tell you that it makes me anxious, because I could see it coming. And the panic. And for anyone that knows me, well, I had an eating disorder. Around that time, sort of maybe maybe four years before we separated. And I think it was, I think it was the struggle of me trying to find myself. And I didn't know who I was I had I had, I didn't have anything else yet. I mean, I didn't have I hadn't made it. I didn't have a career. I mean, I've been an Avon rep for 15 years, I sold Avon. And that's how we saved that extra bit of money. And I worked at spotlight part time for a few hours here and there. But I've never I didn't know who I was apart from being someone's mom, someone's wife and someone's mom. So when I when I actually was present in the moment, and I could see it coming. I was literally panic stricken. What the hell am I going to do with my life? And I looked across at my ex husband bless his heart, and I thought we hadn't worked on our relationship. We didn't do these date nights that people do now. And we didn't have holidays by ourselves. We had one night out a year. And that was for our anniversary. So we did. We took holidays with our children. I mean, we took our kids on a honeymoon because we had to before we were married. Yeah. So we took the kids on our honeymoon. So when we dropped me off and came back, I, my marriage had fallen apart. My daughter had just left and gone to Adelaide, which I'm not, I'm not blaming her. I'm just saying this was a huge thing to get happened all together in my life. My eldest daughter have moved out when once I bought my house and moved into it, she moved out it was and she was ready to do that she was probably going to do that anyway. So I moved into my new home with with my middle daughter, my youngest daughter, well, then, my middle daughter went to Adelaide and I came back. And it was it was Georgia and I in the house. And that was fantastic. Because we shared some wonderful moments together. But I just didn't know what was going to happen next. I had no clue what was going to happen. And Georgia had a boyfriend and so she was out of the house a lot. And man a man did I have to do some soul searching in those times. There were like, you know, have you ever cried that guttural kind of cry? You know, there's the kind that it hurts every part of your body. And it's that, that I remember sitting in front of my fireplace on my little stool that I had there. And it was just Yeah, I was empty. run dry? Didn't I just didn't know how I was going to go to the next bit. That you did, though? I did. Yeah, I did. And all these, you know, there's, you look back and you think of all the people that you think you did it by yourself, but no one does it by themselves. No one does it without little things that happen, you know, Marian, with the the finances and my accountant. You know, people like that who you just he just steered you a little bit in that direction. I had a had a wonderful mentor while I was gardening and Rolton he mentored me, he taught me off mini cliff when I was because it was it was hard being in that industry. And he supported me. You know, he supported me and his wife, Kate, they were just amazing to me in that time. And they you know, I was often on the phone to him having a spoke about something and I remember one day he said to me, Leah, he said, he said this is this is hard for me to tell you. He said you need to take your big girl hat off and you need to put your business hat on. He said you need to get your tissue out of your pocket, wipe your eyes and straighten yourself up and you need to get back to it if that's what you're going to do. And and it was hard to hear because I was because you know I had my my little girl hat on the inside. And that was what was driving me was my little girl heart. But I had to I put my little girl hat there. The Big Business Big Man business heartening because I was dealing with the men out there. Yeah. And my little girl hat wasn't gonna cut it. Big life lessons they were because I, I mean, you know, and trust me to, I don't just do things in half, I never do. So rather than just ease myself into life on my own gently, I'm now just going to rip off all the band aids and I'm going to throw myself into that, you know, gotta get a chainsaw. And I'm gonna change my Lego to cut so Yeah, no worries. Yeah, no, I did. And I'm going to, I'm going to change mine. Mine flat tire out there on AB flat when I get stuck and, you know, got bogged, got bogged, and had to get someone to come and help me out of the matter. I could do a whole podcast on that. Listen stories in there, but I did. I did. But yeah, you've done some massive stuff, haven't you? Do you look back on that and feel really proud of all the stuff that you've done? If you've achieved this stuff? Yeah, I do. But it's still. I still have terrible self esteem. Yeah, after all, that I still don't feel good about myself. And I still, I still struggle terribly with impostor syndrome. Terribly with that, you know, I have to pinch myself. And, and people think a comment on Facebook is like, you know, I put a post up yesterday about my, my famous veggie burgers. And so many people have commented on this thing, though. My favorite thing, though, my favorite thing. And look, I was reading them last night. And I'm thinking, are they talking about me? And you think you think that you read that? And it's an ego trip? Because everyone's telling you how good Yeah, but I'm looking at that. And I actually had to go back through some old stuff. And and remind myself that I did do that. Or like the Neil deliveries, I have to remind myself and it's only if it comes up in my Facebook memories. And I go into Robin, I say, how was I doing that? And gardening as well. And he said, I remember. I don't even know how you did it. He said you just I was on autopilot the whole time. But yeah, when I look back, I think you know, I wasn't well, when I left my marriage. I was still quite unwell. I was my I was very underweight, very underweight. And that could have gone either way. Like I could have taken that work on and literally killed myself doing it because it was pretty physical. But I somehow I found it, I found it in myself. I'm divine intervention, call it whatever you will. I got on top of it. And you know, I don't consider myself to have any eating issues anymore. And eating it, like an eating disorder. It's not about the food. Yeah, anyone that knows anything about it, ya know? So it's just the vehicle which manifests just be any vicious. How could be alcohol can be gambling, it could be drugs. Yeah. Be exercise. Yeah. Anything? Yeah. Because I've had I had that all the comments, you know, why don't you just go home and start eating again. You know, you'll be fine. I'm like, Well, I wouldn't think that what a great idea. Well, yes, oh, well fell apart. And my kids had to witness it. If i Girls witnessed that, and I'm not, you know, talking about regrets and things. If I could go back and change anything. I wished my girls hadn't seen that. Because I lost time with my girls too. I was fighting for my former life. Come on this time with them. And I guess having them there too, might have what it did, it was it was it was all of it. You know, it was all that kept me going and I think I think all these achievements in my life since particularly since my marriage ended. I've always not not watching in a way that they're supervising but I've always known who's watching and I've always wanted to be a good role model for my girls. I've always wanted to be to be able to show my girls that I got up every time I was down I got back up. Yeah, yeah. And I continued to get back up Yeah. I said I don't do things in house. But I got and and I tell them you know, you can do anything. You can do anything. Good for you want to give your heart or your mind saying we just do what we do. Right? No. I come from a family of fighters, you know, my, my mum and dad, this can be okay. If you weren't, I might go into detail. I come from a family of fighters. My, my parents both had, you know, quite traumatic childhoods themselves, you know, things that happened in their lives. And I've it's obviously not spoken about much because that's the generation Yeah, but I know, I don't know all the details and the the strong people, you know, they've come through those things and my sister as well she's had her own mental health battles, you know, like me. And she's stood up and said, Not today, Satan. She's gotten on with the show, and I'm super, super, super proud of her for how she's gotten on with her life, too. So, you know, I've had had that around me, but I think it's, I think it's from a mom's perspective, I always knew my girls were watching on. And like I said, I just didn't ever want to, I want to show them strengthen. You know, I wanted to be able to look back and say, and I didn't want to miss. I didn't want to miss anything. I didn't want to miss being a grandparent. Yeah, I mean, imagine if I hadn't fought and I just lost my battle with that. I would have missed all of this. And they missed out too. They missed, you know, how many phone calls I get during the week. And hey, mom, or, you know, it can be for advice, or it can be, you know, just when they're having a moment, you know, and I'm so blessed that I still have my mum. Yeah, I had my mum and my dad in very good health at a dad's 86 and mums at one. And I've got so I've got my parents on this side. And I've got my now got my grandchildren. I've got three beautiful grandchildren over here. And I have, it's an interesting place to be, because I'm in the middle. And I'm, I'm helping mom and dad with this. But I've also had the absolute blessing of being able to call my mom and say, Hey, ma'am, you know, when I was really unreasonable when this was happening, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I didn't realize. But shit. It's happening to me now. And man, I'm sorry. I understand now why you were like that, or why? You know why that happened? Because and I know a lot of people don't have their mums. When they get to the point I met with grandchildren, they don't have their mums. And my heart hurts for those women who don't have the mums to say that too. But I'm just lucky. And I do it. I do it. Because it's important to me to be able to tell my mum that I understand now Mum, you know, I get it. And and I'm proud of you mum for it for the way you got through that or you know, whatever. And mother nice to do lock horns. Sometimes she's the only one she's still feisty. We're about that as family though. We got more sometimes that we are lucky that I've been able to tell her. That's lovely and fit. Like, my my pop passed away. Almost a year ago, he was 94 for my boys to have their great grandfather. Like I just kept saying to him, You are so lucky to have a great crowd. Oh, yeah. Like not many people get to have, you know, I just wanted to impress that upon them. Yeah. Well, while they had him, you know? Well, I think I have that relation. Yes. Oh, definitely seen? Definitely. And I look on, you know, I could probably still pick on mum and dad for bits and pieces of things. But you know, we, we will all work with the tools we've got. Yes, we absolutely is no instruction manual. I know that's thrown around a lot that thing, but it's so true. It is. And I tell my girls now that they're parenting themselves. I say that to him. And there's, you know, I say to them, you know that feeling you get here in the pit of your stomach. That's called your gut instinct. And you need to trust it every single time over, over your friends over sometimes your partner if you've got a gut, say got this I don't want to get troubled is the medical profession. They have their place. But I've seen to answer magazines. And you know what, when I look back on all the times, I didn't trust it. I was right every time. Every single time. There's I don't think there's a time that I wasn't right about trusting my gut. And I got myself into some, you know, terrible situations at times because I just went ah, I'm sure this will be fine. It wasn't fun. It was never fun. And yeah, probably go back. You can't honor that. I told I use that for them. I say to them, trust it. Because most of the time, you'll be spot on. Because you just know you know your own babies. So yeah, that's it. No one knows your children better than you do. them. I did it I find it incredible the amount of stories I hear, like through so Sure media mums who weren't listened to? It's like, even now, you think, haven't we evolved enough to know? You know, obviously medicine has its place? Absolutely. But to be able to just don't know. I don't know. I hear what you're saying. And even as women, imminence women off, you try you try getting an appointment, or you try getting into see about a women's issue or anything like that. I'm not going to go into into that. But anyway, it's it's a catastrophe, the system is a catastrophe. And, and I'm not surprised more women don't die. Because of it. Yeah, that's so and I'm sure it happens to men too. If there's any men listening, I'm not. I'm not saying it's, you know, but I can only speak from a woman's perspective because I'm a woman. So I can just say from my experience, I think it's a catastrophe scary. Yep. When with your butt, okay, you've said in the past, haven't you girls, you know, always, you're conscious of them, you know, they're always watching in your role modeling. Do you feel like that even now, when they're, you know, moved away, and growing up that it's there watching how, you know, you run your business authentically. And you've had the chance to, you know, upscale it and do whatever, but you're sticking to this. What's important to you? Probably, I mean, to be perfectly honest, I'm most often think that not even looking. They're so busy with their lives. But but every now and again, they'll come up with a somewhat, we have a Facebook chat. And we have all versions of that we have the family chat group, which is the three girls, their partners, and my partner, then we have the three girls and meet, I'm sure they have a private one of their own that they discussed things that I want to talk about with me. Well, I know they do. Then we have all the versions. So I've got Mara and Cassie, I've got Cassie in Georgia, I've got Georgia and you don't I mean, someone's birthday, and you just want to talk probably maybe we got to check the names really carefully. But every now and every now and then I'll get a message from someone, or they're in the group or out of the group. And they've noticed something. And it makes me cry. Like, there's such beautiful human beings. And they just say the most beautiful things. They're so supportive. They're so they're so proud. They're proud of both their dad and myself. But when they when they say it, almost, I almost feel undeserving of it. Yeah. And it shocks them if they if if they do something like that, or they say something nice and I react that way. So why why does it upset you Mimosa just feel so undeserving of, of their, of their love and care. They're just such beautiful humans, they really are. And I and I do think they see what I'm doing. Because they tell me they're proud. They see it, they see what I'm doing. Or if I get down on myself and I say something in front of them. They remind me they'll say, man, look at what you've done. Like you've run these two successful businesses and like I'm, I'm literally a breath away from paying my house off. It's I can I can touch it. It's happening very, very soon. And they'll they'll say, but you did that yourself. And, and as I said, you don't do anything useful if you've had help, but I haven't been employed by anybody else in that time. Yeah. So I've created these two businesses and and I've done that. And that's, if I think about that, that's big. And that shows them that, although I've had I've had my partner support, you know, here now, I've done that part of it myself. And they've they've watched me come from being a crying mess, literally when it first all started to you know, have stood up and, and got on with the show. And I'm and I think they're great. The product is a great thing for them to see from their mom. I think particularly from their mum. Yes, yeah. And then growing up in that era where there was the traditional role. Yeah, you know, if anyone was going to go out and earn the money was the Dad Yeah. So to have their mother achieve this, you know, that's, that's massive. And it just gives them that confidence that you know, you don't need someone you don't need to be married or a partner of someone who's bringing in money for you. You can go out and do it yourself. Which is huge. And I didn't I mean, it's not like my mum didn't work. My mum worked from the time I went to school my mom worked for so long. I didn't see it. Yeah. But it's what I wanted to do. Yeah. And I remember having a discussion on the humanities floor at Grant High School in year 10. And you know, you're all standing around on What's everyone doing? You picking your subjects and all that. And, and I didn't realize it was going to be such an embarrassing topic. But everyone was saying, oh, you know, what are you going to do and someone was going to be a teacher, and someone was going to be a pharmacist and did it at air and, and I sit on, it came around to me, and I said, I just want to be a mom. And like, it was just this deathly quiet because even then, it was an unusual thing for someone who knew 10 to say they wanted to just be a mum. And it was just, you know, air quotes again. Yeah, just be a man. And they said, oh, and I said, Yeah, I can, like, I just want to have the house with the fence and the whole thing. And it's, it's truly all I saw for myself. Yeah. Very ambitious. What do you think that came from what you said, your mom, I don't, I don't want to. If my mom listens to this, I don't want my mom to think that she did anything wrong. But my earliest memory as a child was and truly is my earliest memory. And it's really emotional for me is when my mom dropped me off at kindy. Standing it was the head like a, this is how vivid it is. They had a like a cement box that covered the gas meter. And I was and I stood up on the gas meter box held and held it held on to the front fence and I was screaming for my mom she was I can see her walking to the little green Maurice mana that we had, and her getting in the car and leaving me there, which everyone did. And when I left the kids at kindy it's not like she did anything, you know, horrible. And I was out, I was just wanting her to come back. Come back and update. Don't leave me here, ma'am. And I was beside hysterical. And back then. I didn't know what I was wearing. That's how vivid it is. I haven't seen a photo. It's just like, it's like a trauma to me. And I had this beautiful little dress that mom had made and a hand knitted cardigan with buttons down the front and mum used to pin a hankie on the outside with a gold safety pin. And I had my hankie pinned, and I was tugging at my hanky, and she's driving off in the car lift me at kindy. That's my earliest childhood memory. And I think it's stuck with me. It's just stuck with me. And I, and I just never wanted my kids to feel like that. And I know it was a moment, and I'm sure once mom left, and they took me inside. I mean, I don't even remember anyone coming to get me that's I just remembered that. But I'm sure I was fine. I'm sure once I got inside, I was okay. But that sorry for me that that may wanting my mum, I didn't want my girls to have a moment of that. So for me, and and Tony and I spoke about it very early on, he was in full agreement with we that was something we chose together to. I just wanted to be home and I wanted to raise my own children, um, and I locked horns many a time because Mum, mum would say, I will, I'll come and you know, I can come and take them and do this, or I can come and do that. I said, I want to do it myself. And I remember having a big argument with them. When he said you and your bloody independence, it shifts me. And I said, Mom, I didn't have my children for someone else to have them. I want you to be a Nana. But I don't want you to I don't want you to take them and parent them. I don't. I don't want that. And that's how I that's how I chose to be a mom. It's what I wanted to. It's what I wanted to do, you know, I did the and we didn't have much money. It came with sacrifices, because we, you know, it was back when I make it sound like it's back in the ice age. But it was it was a different it was a different time. It was a different time. I mean, so, so much different to now we had, we got paid in an envelope, you know, the money came in a pay envelope, and it came with a pay slip, you know, and we had an exercise book, and Tony would come home on a Friday night with the pay. And we'd get the kids off doing something and we'd sit down, open up the book now. And this is when you paid all your bills you drove you got into cars. I remember doing that with we went to the bank and you paid your house payment. The house payment was just a number of $100. So we'd sit down we'd put all the cash down and we'd sit together and it's like okay, so 100 for that 100 there. The telephone bills $44 If you put everything out to put it in a little envelopes. Got $60 left, that's going to pay for the groceries, anything to do with candy or anyone need clothes or that was that was everything. So when I wrote my shopping list, we can't get the chocolate biscuits and I grew all my veggies from scratch. All of them. I had a we had a big backyard. I had a massive veggie patch. And Tony was Italian and his mum. I mean they were just amazing. They what they didn't gray. Yeah. So she My parents grew veggies too. So between all of us, we all you know, we all were self sufficient. Tony's dad also used to work at the abattoir. So he used to kill all their meat. And this is before Well, before I went vegetarian, but even so we had meat eaters in the house, they they quite often would kill a pig or a sheep or something and bring us around a heap of meat that went in the freezer. But I grew in our grave 50 tomato plants at once and make all my own Persada and yeah, and all the girls, snacks and cakes and biscuits are all cooked from scratch. Didn't not not only could I not afford it, it's it's what I wanted with my day. Yeah, we didn't have we didn't have YouTube to watch or we didn't have Netflix, or we had two channels late and channel two wasn't much to choose from TV actually went off the air. Like it didn't start till 10 o'clock in the morning or something and I took the test pen at night when they're closing this day. Yeah, yep. So So you also couldn't entertain your children with tablets. Yeah, there was no such thing. So you know, you'd get them at the table painting or they'd stand up at the bench I had blue aprons for them and because there was a five year gap between the first two and and the last one that the oldest two would stand up at on chairs at the bench with a little aprons on and they'd help me make biscuit they put the fork marks on the biscuits or make the bowl or you know, I mean the days were full by the time I did all that and we had cloth nappies and no it was a competition between me and the neighbor as to who had the widest nappies on the line and I one by one great soaking soaking nappies and rinsing nappies and all those things. They took time it was though the days were full. Yeah, literally was a full time job. Yep. We've talked about your identity, sort of shift, you know, when the guilds moved, yeah. Because you so strongly wanted to be a man when you became a monk. Was it? Was it what you thought it was gonna be? Or did you was did you sort of your idea? It was it was mostly it was to everything. Yeah, right. I wanted it to be. Yeah, it was. It was everything and I and I'd be lying if I said it was like that every day. Yeah, yeah, there's always ups and downs. Because there were, there was many a day, sitting on a nappy bucket in the laundry with the door shut sobbing into my own arm. While while I could hear the kids laughing out there, you know, there was many a day and I had horrible postnatal depression with my second baby. I had a planned C section she was breech, and they she wouldn't turn say 10 days before her due date. I had a C section. I was partway through her had had an epidural. So I could be awake for it. But they were partway through, bring her out and the epidural wore off. And at that time, it was it was up on the Hill Hospital. And it was a teaching hospital. They were 13 Student midwives in the theater. And I could see my reflection in the theater light. I could see the screener. Oh, it was it was the worst. It was the worst. So they had a head out. And I got I started to get feeling back. And And I'm saying I can feel that I can feel it. And I was starting to panic. And Dr. Foy is saying remember Dr. For you at all, Dr. Boyce saying no. It's just the you can feel the sensation. I said, No. I can feel it. I can feel it. And I was like I was starting to arrive. Oh, God. He's saying can you keep that? Can you keep that woman still? And so like I said, What had happened is the epidural had had blocked but she hadn't blocked the nerve she was laying on. So once they moved her the it just it hadn't worked in that particular spot. Oh my god. So I've got this gaping wound. And I've got complete sensation. So my last memory that they got her out and they put her on my chest thinking that that would calm me down and I'm just pushing her off, you know, so she they grabbed her and lost my last memories, then putting the air hose down my throat while I wasn't out and I'm like I was clawing at it trying to get out. Anyway, I woke up in recovery and all was good. Sorry, I had a big reaction to that because I had zerion and I felt that I didn't feel the pain that you feel but I could feel everything and it scared the shit out. I just did not enjoy it horrible. It was either now I'm feeling goosebumps. Sorry. No, I should have warned you. Yeah, no, that's all right. Yeah, that's a horrible story. I'm so sorry. I mean, they ushering all the once they realized it was serious, it was for real. Like she's not pretending like as if you would like it was bullshit. absolute bullshit. Don't listen to a woman and she's brilliant, but it wasn't them that I thought it was bullshit. It was once I got a bit stronger in the years later. I'm like, that was bullshit. Yeah, because you should listen to me the first time and not worry Well, I would it was wasn't April Fool's Day, by the way I wasn't, you know, it wasn't a joke. But I knew, I knew they knew I was serious when they started ushering all the midwives out and like, ya know, everybody out and Tony had to go out so it was, you know, they put me under and, and then I woke up. I woke up and everyone had already handed my baby around. You know, it wasn't it wasn't it was in that time where that stuff wasn't sensitive either. Maybe students stay with you. They went into a little room didn't No, no, no, no, she she she was in the room. But once they got me from recovery and took me back to the room. Yeah, the baby was me. It was already in the room and family were there and they had already passed around. And because I because it took me a long time to understand why I got postnatal depression cuz I didn't get it the first time. Yeah, yeah. But when I look back, I felt robbed. I felt wrong because I had to have a C section. Yes, I had a fantastic vaginal birth the first time so I just assumed that I was gonna be able to do that again. And she was nine pounds one so I thought well, I heaps of fun. Really. I'm gonna get this one out because she was a lot smaller. But you can't plan a breach. I mean, she just wasn't she was a footbridge. So she had one leg straight and one arm up over her head and went down the side. So she was all over the shot. And if one legged come out first, it was going to be a bit of a catastrophe. They said, so anyway. And then following that, like breastfeeding went, Well, I loved breastfeeding. I mean, I know. I know. There's mums that don't like it but loved it, love, love, loved it. That went well. Then when I got discharged from hospital, I got a urinary tract infection and had a reaction to the antibiotics. And I'm talking a urinary tract infection where I was walking around with an ice cream bucket. Because I literally couldn't get to steps without feeling like I had to pee and I was paying blood and it was pretty hard. So once I got the antibiotics, right, that started to clear up but me it was 10 days old and postnatal depression hit like, like a sledgehammer. Like I was in the fetal position in the laundry on the floor. Just asking for my mom, I couldn't don't don't even give me a baby don't even hand it to me because I'm not interested in even looking at looking at her plus, I had a toddler as well. So my husband called my mom and my mum came in and mum said You know, you've got two kids to look after here, you need to pull yourself together. And, and that was the right thing to say in the moment for mum. But it's probably not what I needed to hear. I wanted, I think I wanted mum to say. And again, I don't want them to think that she did anything wrong. But I think I wanted them to say it's going to be okay. It's just going to be okay. So they're not calling the GP to the house. And anyone that knows Dr. Krause Doctor class came, she was whispering. And I'm like, I'm sobbing and she's whispering so to hear her had to stop crying. And she's kneeling at my feet. And she's got her hands on my knees and and she's, you know, tapping me and she's talking me through it. So I end up back in hospital for seven days. And no visitors just just me and the end the baby and family could come look at the girls and had Cassie and Tony could come but no other visitors. And they sent me she was a clinical psychologist but she was specialized in postnatal depression. So, I've got, I've got my A C section, I've got my urinary tract infection. I've got these these boulders on my chest that are just squirting milk everywhere you feel like a piece of shit. And they send me this blonde blonde bombshell. She walks in and she's stunning. She's got she's got the she's got it all going on. And I'm like, What the fuck. So you think you are not going to be able to help me in any way. Anyway, she was the best thing that ever happened. And I use skills that she taught me then as I still use them today. You know, like, reverse to do lists, you know, you're right, you're right you to do list. But you add the things on at the end of the day that you also did so that you feel like you really achieved at the end of the day. She also taught me she taught me to write a to do list with two things on it, get out of bed and feed everybody. That's it. That was all all I had to do when I went home was get out of bed and feed, just feed everyone, nothing else. And that got me through because I realized who they really were the two, the only two things I needed to do and the most important things and yes, she was amazing. I saw her for quite some time after just doing a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and just you know how I was talking to myself and I those things and yeah, she got me back on my feet. Yeah, looks are deceiving. She looked amazing, but she had some great skills. Yeah, I know saying that was just how I felt in the moment. But I remember thinking that I remember thinking what? Yeah, what could you send me everyone the actual opposite to exactly. But as far as being a mum, I just, I just loved it. I just loved it. You know, I didn't like it every day. And it wasn't a reflection on my girls, I loved my girls every day, you know, there were days and plenty of milk downs, but in the, the essence of being a mum, I loved it. And I loved. Yeah, I loved. And I just I tried so hard. I remember being very conscious of how I parented my girls, and tried so hard to get it right. And I didn't always because there's no such thing as a perfect mom, or a perfect human being for that matter. But I did my best. And, you know, the, the, you know, for me the the biggest evidence that I that we as parents got something right, is watching them as adults is, is watching them as functional human beings in the community. And hearing other people that have interacted with them tell you that they're beautiful people, or that they did something for them, just out of the goodness of their heart and how amazing that was. And I don't know what to tell the girls when I hear that. Yeah, but I quite often do. And it just, you know, tear up my mom and I have a stray dog syndrome, we call it where we take in people. And we rescue people. Yes. And my mum, like we never knew who was going to be at our Christmas table because Mum and Dad did Meals on Wheels. And they often picked up a stray along the way and we'd love them all. But that's mum and dad were like that. And I think, you know, I was a bore witness to that through my life. Yeah. And I was rescued the animals as a kid, I bought the bird home that had been, you know, clawed by a cat or, you know, whatever. I bought lots of things home that had to go back. Because we couldn't keep more than something you can't walk past something and not do something and not who wants to do that with worms. Yeah, you're in the wrong spot could go back into nails. I know this, you're gonna get eaten up eventually. Because that's the cycle of life. But I feel like you gotta give them a crack. Yeah, you gotta give me exactly what I think you should have seen me and my gardening business. You know you if it was an early morning, mow all the snails. Pick them all up all of them. Yeah. And I had one customer saw me doing one day and she actually she actually told me off, she said, So you're putting them all back. And I'm gonna put snail bait over there. So we you do what you need to do when I'm gone. But I can't run them with my lawnmower. I'm sorry. And I would spend ages because sometimes there's 3040 Snails going across the lawn at seven o'clock in the morning. Now Leah would have to pick them all up in the bucket and put them all over there. That's just me. But that's it was it's yeah, it's not. For me. It's not what my girls have achieved in their work life or, you know, they've all done amazing things. It's who they are as people who they are as human beings and and now that I've watched them parent and they all parent, I've got two that have human babies and one that has had beautiful cat babies. And that all she parents, those cat babies, just like they were here human babies. And they're just they just have beautiful hearts. And um, that's what I'm proudest of. Yeah, I think Well, we did something right to make them to give them that start. They can choose to do whatever they want to do with that, but they've certainly gone on and you know, continued on with that, which makes me happy. Yeah. I love that. That is wonderful. There's one point about it that blindsided me when I became a grandparent for the first time. Yeah. And I realized, probably just to say it now. Yeah. So when my first grandchild was born, all my mum friends that had already become grandparents had sent you just wait, you just wait. You're not going to believe how amazing it is. And I knew it would be amazing. But nothing prepared me for not only how amazing it was, but the emotion had bought up. For the end of an era for me. Yeah, right. And I never ever thought about it. Someone should write a book. Maybe Maybe I'll write a book. But when when she came home from the hospital, and they, they, because COVID hit pretty soon after. So once we got through that, and I was able to then go to the house and be a part of it. I couldn't stay. Because it because it wasn't my it wasn't my turn. It wasn't my baby. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was heart wrenching. And I don't know if that makes sense. But it was I knew I knew. I mean, it wasn't delusional. I knew she wasn't my baby. Right? Yeah. But the last time I'd been hands on with a baby, they were my babies. And I got to witness the whole journey. And all I wanted to do was witness the whole journey. But when the realization came that I had to go home, and I couldn't witness the whole journey. It broke my heart. Yeah. Yeah. Because I wanted to watch. I wanted to watch my daughter, parent. Her daughter. Yeah. And I couldn't I couldn't watch it all. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So I found that really hard. Once I got once I once I realized, and I, and I sort of went through my own emotions. Yeah. It was fine. Yeah, he right. No, didn't expect it out that day. No, it's not. It's all this excitement and happiness. And but it literally is an it is a defined end of, you know, one year at the start of another year, and all the the emotions and they're involved in that transition. Yeah. Because if you can picture to, like, I've got my two hands up facing each other, if you can picture. This was this is my daughter, and this is me. And we're facing each other. Yeah. When when your children have their own children, they turn, they turn around, and they face a different direction. Yeah. And she's still they still turn back. And they're still. I mean, we're, we're very close. We're all very close, I get a lot of phone calls, and I get a lot of sharing and all the things I don't miss a thing. But it's different. It's it's like, okay, well, it's a definite, it's a it's a transition. It goes from, what it's just you, it's just the mother and the daughter. I think maybe it's particularly with mothers and daughters, I would imagine, to, it's now it's now well, you're there, and they'll they'll come to you when they need you. But But you literally have to just stand in the background. And you only get to be a part of what you're allowed to be a part of. Yeah, that makes sense. And like it was a very generous, I'm not making it sound like, you know, they're very inclusive and share so much. I mean, FaceTime, I get FaceTime. And I get all the things and it's amazing. But you really you only get to be a part of what that will enable you to be a part of or what time allows you to be a part of because you're not hands on all the time. That was a really big. Yeah, they were big realizations and very emotive for me. I'm and I'm a very feeling person. I feel deeply. And that was not something I expected to feel at all. Yeah, that's that's a really good point. Yeah, that's a really good point. And you want to be there? Oh, yeah. Like you light up? No, it's not. And I don't mean to tell them what to do. Because they're doing amazing. But just to be just to be there. Again, part of the party for finding your identity again. Yes. Well, now, I have to learn what a grandmother is because I've never been a grandmother. So I have to learn what that means and how I navigate that to how it works for me, but most of all, how it works for them. Yeah, it's always things you don't think I was like, I'm thinking of that. Oh, great. I'm not making it sound like life is a series of lessons. Yeah. And he's always evolving and changing in your learning all the time. You know, you think you think puberty, childbirth, menopause, you think maybe there's just the three men let me tell you, I've, there's there's been a million of those and you just think, okay, are we there yet? Please, I don't need any more details with this one. I know I could be I could. You know, I admire some people for their care and easy, free and easy attitude and they can just You just move on. I'm not that person. Because I feel I just feel everything exactly. And I have what I have to feel it. And I have to go through the whole process to understand it. And if I can't understand it, then I struggle. But once I can understand it and and you journal about it or read a book about it, then I can. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good to go. Do you mind if we talk about the shared experience we had with decluttering? No, not at all. Yeah, it's interesting. As I over the long weekend, no joke would have been 15. Garbage bags full of clothes. Plus, for more, just probably 20 to five more now that I've given to my mom and my sister. And the emotional experience of going through those clothes. I just thought my husband laughed at me because I every now and then I have to break and I was in tears. He's like, What are you doing? I'm like, that this was the when I had the baby. This is what I was, you know, all these boots. Huge, much stuff. And I can't believe the amount of stuff I had stickerless the amount of stuff I had. But yeah, would you mind sharing the experience you had doing that? So I've got a massive wardrobe, but I had a lot in it. And I'm not a hoarder. But I hold on to things that mean something to me or for whatever reason. Anyway, my oldest daughter, Cassie Blissett. And Hart said, when I come home on the long weekend, why would you want me to help you clean out your wardrobe? I said, Sure. Let's do that. And I'm pretty sure Mia was going to be a part of it too. But she had to fly back a day earlier. So she was had already gone home. But as it got closer, I was backpedaling. And I was saying to her, ah, look, honestly, I'll be good. I'll just do it when you're gone. Because I think we're going to run out of time. It's you know, like, want to spend more time with Ali and you know, all the things. She said, I'm not going to make you but I'm happy to do I really love doing that. Anyway, we all end up going to bed. That's her little boy who end up going to bed and we thought oh, now's a good time. So we she said look, let's just take everything out and we'll throw it on the bed. So we took it all out put on the bench. He said you just pick up each item and I'm not going to pressure you just do whatever you want it well some things were an absolute that's got to go that's got to go and I had no problem with those. And then there was a so we had it that's got to go pile. We had a might try that on and just see pile. And then we had a definite that's not because I really love that. So the definitely not going things. Cassie was color coding. And because that's her. She was colored. She she she was a bit visual merchandiser for JJs for many years. So she's got it. I think she was color coding all my clothes as they were going back in the wardrobe. We did we got that all done. And it was some of them. I was holding up and she's shaking her head before I even made her mind up. She's going No. So I took her lead and got rid of it. So then we've got we've got that done. And she she pulled the door closed and the walking robe and I had all my dressing and hang up. And she said, for God's sake, how many dressing gowns does one person need? And I said, Well, that one's my winter one because I like that color. And that one's my winter one because that one collects cat here. Well, now that the cats are outside and don't come inside anymore, I can wear that one. And this is my summer one that short is my summer one that's long. And this one's one that Georgia brought me back from Thailand. And this one's one that you guys bought me for Mother's Day and I can't bear to part with it. She said what about and she said okay, so pick your favorite long one and pick your favorite short one. And I said, like took me ages. I just couldn't. I ended up narrowing it down. And we did that. And she said, What about this skanky? Oh, green thing here. And it's not it's it's just a short telling dressing gown that I absolutely love. And she said, I think I gave this to you. Like years ago. She said, I think we were still I think your dad was still together when I had this. And I said, Yeah, that's right. And I couldn't I could feel the emotion coming up. Yeah. And she said, Well, you don't you'd can't possibly need that now. And she was she didn't realize that I was getting emotional about it. She said you can't possibly need that. Now you got all these other ones that are much nicer. She said, Oh, that's nice, but it's not that nice. And I said I just like to keep it because it means something to me. It's sentimental. And she said I don't I don't understand. Or I just burst into tears because I don't think I understood it myself. And I said to her I think I think it's one of the last connections to our family life. I said because I remember you wearing it when we used to sit in the lounge around Fire. We were watching TV all together, the five of us together. And she said, are really, ma'am. And I said, Yeah. And I said, and you know, I said, I know it's a funny thing to say, but sometimes I put it on. If I'm feeling really flat, I'll wear it. Yeah. And it makes me think of a view. And, you know, it's not like I miss my sight. Like, I want my husband back, saying that it's the vehicle. It's the unit. It's the family unit. And they weren't all bad times. There were some really good times in there. And we wouldn't have been together for 22 years. I said, sometimes I put it on when she said on. And she said, I wished you just said that I wouldn't have pressured you. And I said, Well, you didn't really pressure me, I said, but I would like to keep that one. So then she just lovingly picked it up, and she just hold it back on the, on the coconuts, and I've kept it and you know, probably I may not ever wear it, you know, but I like to, I like to have it because that's what it means. But yeah. How, like how emotion fueled, is addressing again, like, it's crazy. And I didn't realize until it looked like it was gonna go. Yeah. And it's the one warning item that I kept. It's the only thing I kept that that made me really emotional. I got rid of so many. I mean, I don't know how many garbage bags you said, but I think I had eight. I got it all went to the shop. And yeah, and I was I was happy to see them go. Just an add on to that. My beautiful partner. He's He's so hands on when it comes to helping with things. And the next day, I went back into finish off things in there. And I had all the bags all lined up. And he said are how much have you got left to go? And I said, I've just got a couple of things to finish. And I'd really like to take them all together when I'm finished. And he said, Well, how about I just laid all these in the car and take them. And then when you finish the others tomorrow, you can take them and I said Ah, but I really I really am selective about where I want them to go. Because I know where I know which up shop I want them to go to and everything. And he said, Oh, that's right, I can do that. I'll just do that. And I said, ah might just wait till tomorrow. And then when I'm finished and I was trying not to make a big deal. But I will say could see he just wanted to help. And I'm thinking oh, he just wants to help. So I said, Okay, all right. Well, you do that. I think I was a bit huffy. When I said it. I said to you just you just take them then. So he loaded them all in the car. And when he got them all in the car, I thought, I've got one last reason why maybe he'll just bring them all back. So when at the end, I said, I just want to take a photo of them all together. So I could send them to Cass and show her how I ended up. And he said we'll take a photo of him in the car. So I looked at the car, and I said it's not quite the same. And so I just came back inside. So he drove off. And I watched him. Like I watched him drove off and I sat there sobbing on the bed. Because I wanted to do it. It was it was closure for me to do it. And I wasn't going to take anything out and keep anything but it was just closure for me. When he came back. He could see I'd been crying. And he said, what's wrong? And I said, I didn't want you to do that. I wanted to do it myself. And he went anyway, sadly, we had a bit of an argument about it. Because he said you should have made it clear. And I said Well, I'm not going to spell it out like you're five. I said I didn't want you to take him and there was a reason. And he was heartbroken. He had he got really emotional too. He said I wouldn't hurt you for the world. And I said, I know that. And I know you didn't do it to hurt me. And maybe I should have really explained myself. But I said I feel like that's been ripped away from me. And I haven't had a chance to close it. But I got over it the next day, but it was so yeah, so powerful. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I can really I can understand that. Because it's like that last, it's that last act of letting it go. You know, I did that when I put my stuff in the in the funny bin thing. And as I was driving away, I was just bawling. It's like I I wanted this stuff to go. So it's not like oh, yeah, I get that. It's just that. I know that part of my life is truly gone. Yeah, that was exactly what it was. Yeah. Because I had I had other things in there too, like, like yourself that, that I can tell you when I bought them and where I was and all the things and they had meaning. And that's why I wanted to select where they went. I wanted to see where they went. Yeah. And I wanted to be responsible for where they went, Jeremy I wanted it to be me that did it. And and even though he came back and said exactly where he took them and I believe that he did you know I'm not saying that. I just wanted to do what like you did drive away and if I needed a tear I needed a tear and I probably want to do it by myself. Yes. Oh, yeah, I did. My mom was here. Yeah, it's yes. Yeah. And yeah, it was like some of the stuff. I laughed. I thought why if I still got these and then I'd be going oh, I know what I still got this because you know, it reminds me of this. This particular time in my life or whatever. And some things I was so happy to let go of Yeah, I didn't even think twice like you know how you say when you picked it up my daughter said that being before it sort of lifted. I was like oh what am I stupid that for whatever but then other things. Some things are just definite. There's no and even the keepers some things would definitely always keep it even if she said no. Now we say well, I love it. I actually love this and I love wearing it. I feel good when I wear it. So I'm keeping it. I kept stuff that I'll never wear again, but the sentimental value years sentimental like that. Like you're not I don't. I don't my husband would say I'm a hoarder, but I don't think I'm a hoarder. But I think important to me. Yeah. So I've got these jumper jumper that my Nana wore, than I used to wear when I was a kid. So I've kept that I've got a little drawer now we're off. Yeah, I've cleaned out keepsakes. I don't want to pay. Yeah. And yeah, so many things I gave to my mom and my sister because I didn't want to part with. I'd like to still see them in my life. Yeah, so you know where they are. Lovely. But no pressure. I say no pressure. If you don't like it, you know, obviously, but I don't see I can live with that. Yeah, I can give it to someone and say, Look, I'd like you to have it. And if you feel like getting rid of it, just get rid of it. Yeah. Because once I've left it, they're not it's out of control, then yeah, you just want what happens? Yeah. You know, I'm gonna sign him. You have to keep that? Yeah, no, no, no. And I say that to my girls, like I've got, you know, I've got a couple of big tubs of things of my mum and dads that are from their grandpa from my grandparents or from their parents that are out there all wrapped up in some, you know, probably probably some valuable things maybe. But I've shown my girls where they are and what they are. And I've explained what they are. And I said to them, I'm keeping them because it means something to me. Obviously, when I'm gone, I won't know but do not have an ounce of guilt. If you need to take the whole box to the shop. Because they might not mean anything to you. It's another generation or Yes, so don't seem cool. I just don't want them to be saddled with that guilt that that people feel when Sr. But someone gave that to me back in 1927. And I don't want to part with it. It probably doesn't mean anything to them. You know, she found that that reminds me of when grandpa passed away when we're going through his stuff. And you'd find things What the hell is he kept this for? Now? It's obviously very good reasoning. He was more of a hoarder. My Dad Yeah, my dad's got. Yeah, but you know, there's a reason for Yeah, no, yeah. And I sort of felt a little bit like, I should keep this because he was important to him. But then the end of the day, I thought I can't keep everything. There's just so much stuff here. And as it was I took boxes of stuff that I hadn't even done anything with. They're just sitting there because I just couldn't bear to let them go. Yeah, but you know, over time, that might change. You know, it's only been coming up 12 knots. I think, I think from what I saw of Rob's situation when his mom passed away and we we cleaned her house he bought we bought a heap of stuff here and a lot of we had a garage sale or we gave it away or whatever. But there's some stuff that we kept in the shed. Yeah, and bit by bit some of its gone. Yeah, over time. But it's time and I've said that to rob my my parents, there'll be things that I said prepare to clear out half the shed to make room for it when I have to do it for my parents. And I said and over time, I'll whittle it down. But in the moment I'll it'll be a part of them and I'll have to hang on to it. I just won't be able to part with it. So you just have to bear with that. I think that's a it's a process that is part of the morning. I think it is part of the grieving it's it happens stage by stage as you go through. Yeah, absolutely. So what's worse, I'll put all the links to all your socials but we're what's Where do you Where are you most active is like Instagram or Facebook. Where do you like people to get in touch with? I loves Instagram Stories. I've had to cut down my Instagram stories because I think I love your story when you're going from Yeah, but I think I put too many. I think I put too many slides. I'm like I've I do whatever you lost, share them like I'm doing it. But yeah, but people's eyes glaze over. I'm sure that I can probably swipe past most of those, you know, it's who I am. That's the thing. Yeah. Do you do what you like, and then everyone else can sort themselves out I love I love Instagram stories because I feel like I'm a loves telling stories. So I like I like that part of it. I mean, I'm I'm on Facebook and Instagram. So that's pretty much pretty much all I'd like to blog again. But yeah, I don't know. I'd like to blog about so many things. And I've come back to Facebook several times and told everyone Hey, because because I might sometimes I'll write something that's nothing to do with food. It's a life thing because I'm deep in and I like all that sort of stuff. And people love it. Yeah, like, like the response I get from people. I get it. I'll get private messages from all of them. And then I'll come back straight after and Okay. Ah, seems like people really liked that. I'm going to do more of it now like i and publicly announced I'm doing it, then I don't do it. Because then again, I get that whole. Well, really who wants to hear about my grandparenting journey? And how I feel about that? Probably no one, but I think I can see, but I can see who my audience are like that three and a half 1000 people, but I can see how many of them are my age demographic. Yeah. And probably at a similar life stage. And even if they're not, what's going to happen to them do see, it's probably worth talking about. So I often think of doing that. And I think maybe we'll have a separate blog, and I think I want to just do it there. Yeah. If people don't want to, they can scroll by Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Don't read it. If you don't, if it's not your thing, don't read it. Then I feel bad because I've got men in there. And I think I'm always going to speak about women's things. But I'm a woman. yet. I don't know how to talk from a man's perspective. They can start their own blog if they wish I you know, this whole thing with social media. It's like you can think too much about Yeah, I think just do what yeah, maybe I should stop overthinking at you. Yeah, sorry. I'm pointing and everyone else like complete themselves. Yes, what I probably say, because sometimes I feel like sometimes a topic comes into my head, like, like talking about the grandparent thing. And I think I'm gonna write so much about that. Yeah. And, and like a couple of things. I said that you see, you hadn't thought of Yes. Because you haven't had that experience yet. I guess I also don't want. I don't want to get on there and tell a story like that. And people think, Oh, is it does it seem like a wind but anything my stuff sounds like a winch. No, doesn't sound like I like I like to just sharing it a deep feeling or a thought, you know, I really, I really enjoy that. That's how I connect with people. And I think it gives people other people permission to share the same vulnerabilities that I share. I'm very, I'm very, very for that. I think that we don't talk enough about stuff. When it comes to mental health issues. I am all about that, like just got to talk about, because the more we talk about it, the more we talk about it, and it just grows on itself. You know, it becomes not a stigma thing that we're all too scared to mention. It's part of life, and more people would have it than wouldn't mass. You know, it's just gonna say that. Yeah. And I don't anyone that mocks anyone with any kind of mental health issue, mild, severe or otherwise needs to have a look at themselves because it's debilitating. And as I said, people, like, out there, I'm one of the most bubbly, you know, like, that's the thing. It's easy. And I'm not putting that on. I'm like that when I get comfortable. Yeah. But I'm, if anyone's seen the not so great side of me as in, you know, they've, I've not been my best self and my best behavior are probably don't feel comfortable with them. Because when I because when I truly feel comfortable with someone, I'm the most loving, giving, thoughtful, deep, sharing person you could ever meet. But I have to feel comfortable. Yeah. And if if I've got my guard up, I can't be myself. I can't give the best of myself. So it isn't it. And it's sad that I can't do that. But I can't pretend either. I'm very transparent. So I can understand so what's, what's in the future for jazz? Frank? What's here? Oh, if I could claim me. I mean, I'm a grandparent. Now. I think, man, just Frank will, it will be there as long as you know, I can. As my body will stand there and do that as long as people wanting my, my goodies. I'll keep doing it. Because I really, I really love it. And just a little side note to that, I think. I think my business also grew from the perspective that it's we're not empty nested. My just Frank family became the people because that's how I show my love. So I show I love people, I cook for them. If I care about you, you can be sure you're gonna get some food because that's how I look I just add even and it's probably why I want it to be my two hands because anyone that buys my food, you can be guaranteed I love what I do. And I'm usually listening to something amazing while I'm doing it might be a Formula One podcast because I'm a massive fan. Oh my god. Oh, All right, folks, let's not get started that was talking about David Ricardo said the whole thing said I just My heart breaks for him and I and he's such a such a. He's such a beautiful character on on track like he's in the paddock. He's just so loved there. I can't believe that haven't given him a seat. I can't believe it. Just yeah. But anyway, that's another podcast. I'll be talking to you later about that. Next week after the Japan Grand Prix. We'll have a chat about that. Yeah, yeah. So I wouldn't do that. You know, what, you're, it's you it's literally us. It is, and, and my family. My my girls were grown on home cooking. And that's that was part of when I started the business. I just wanted to, like I wanted to keep cooking for other people. I couldn't. I literally stopped cooking when I have done nested because when I was looking when when there were no children around, it was hard to cook for one. Yeah. So I just cooked something random for myself. But I stopped baking, I stopped making all these beautiful things that my kids used to have, of course, then the girls went through there were watching our Wait, man, we can only have two biscuits, not the whole jar, you know, whereas back then they gobble them up, not have to make some more. But yeah, that's, I mean, so anyone, anyone listening that buys my food for my family. That's, that's why I do it is I love it. I love it. And I'm meant to, someone told me once it was actually Maurice Dickens from I said to He wants us I can't keep up with like the range of stuff that I've got. And he said, narrow it down to your pick your top five, and narrow it down to that. Now also anyone that's listening that sees how many products I have out there, I think I think there's about 35 different things that I make and counting. Because Because Tony, Tony Verona so so she would message me say we're the shelves that their mother hubbard shows up there, we need some more goodies. She doesn't she doesn't order, it doesn't tell me what she wants. So I just go, right, had this idea. I reckon that fudge that they would be great dipped in chocolate with more chocolate drizzled with grated chocolate on the top. So then I'll just come up with the 35 goes to 36. So I've got and of course, I have to put all these in the computer for my invoicing system. So I can see how many there are. So I just keep using my imagination and making new things. So on that all the recipes are your own, that you tweak or people come up with. Yeah, you asked Rob, they're just things that I come up with come in there. And he'll say, so what are we making today? And I'm not sure yet. Not quite sure yet. And most of them aren't written down, which I've just started to document them. Sorry, for because what it is, it is pretty funny. If you're not, maybe you're going to sell your business one day. But one day if I'm going to sell the business, and I and and someone says okay, so what are you selling up sell what's all in here? It's all in my head. They can't sell that. And besides that, I mean, if I don't sell the business, and my girls want to do something with it, I'm going to give it to them. And they might decide to do something with it. And I need to have them written down. So I've just started to do that. So yeah, so if you buy something, and I mean, actually, having said that there are the things that I package are written down. But like these things aren't written down. So if you do happen to buy the rocky road, and it tastes different one day than the next Can I tell you a funny story. I just sent the Biscoff rocky road to Adelaide. And when I was cutting it up ready to box it I realized I hadn't put the almonds in. Ah, so I rang. I message him and I said I've boxed it all up and it's on its way but just be prepared. There's no harm in doing this. I think it's because everyone was home and I had had my kitchen door shut and I was working in there but I could hear everything going on. I'm like I just want to get this done because I want to get back to being with the family. There's no elements in that one. There's extra biscuits because when I was mixing I thought I don't know what's going on. He doesn't seem like there's enough. So I had an extra biscuit. So it's really crunchy but just not with almonds. Sorry about that Adelaide. So yeah, so I'm not sure what's next. Um, I'm just doing what I'm doing. Loving doing what I'm doing and while people are still wanting me to do it, I'll keep doing it. That's awesome. Would it be fair to say, I'm just taking the liberty here? There's anyone that's listening that's interested in veganism or vegan lifestyle. Would you be happy to chat? 2%? And as I said, very, I'm very, you know, fluid with all of that I, everyone's got to start somewhere. I mean, I didn't go vegan overnight. Yeah, it wasn't a cold turkey thing. So I get the transition. And I can certainly give people plenty of tips on how to add, just add a few meals or I mean, there's no end of recipes out there. Yeah, I mean, you've just got a Google vegan curry, vegan anything. And you'll find some recipes. But yeah, I'm more than happy. And if anyone wants to talk about the ethical side of it. I'm pretty passionate about that topic. Yeah, I just don't. I just don't go there a lot. Because not everyone wants to hear that. Yeah. But if someone wants to, you will share 100% Yeah, absolutely. I'm always open to that inbox me, you know, my phone numbers on all my products on the label. So call me message me whatever. I need say, Yeah, of course, I'm always and I've done a fair bit of that over the years, I've done a, you know, talk to a lot of people about that kind of thing. I mean, I've, I've wanted to get back to doing another talk at the library at some time. It's something like that would be fun. Not necessarily about that, but maybe a cooking, you know, like a cooking demonstration where we can just casually chat at the same time. You know, I know the library's open to that. So that's if that's something that's interesting to people and they'd like to do that. Perhaps give me a yell or comment on your on the podcast post or whatever. And yeah, we can organize that too. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. I've really loved it. love chatting with you. And thank you for your honesty and your openness and your vulnerability. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much to thank you for your goodies which have made a hole in we can take the rest time if you're lucky you have your everyday thanks, Alison. Thank you

Dr Melanie Cooper Australian mixed media visual artist + art historian S1 Ep07 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Melanie Cooper is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide South Australia, and a mother of 2. Melanie combines painting + drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet, stitching and rug making techniques. In this episode we chat a lot about art, as Melanie’s expertise in the long 18th Century allows us to delve into the role and treatment of women artists during this era. We also discuss the importance of sharing our experiences as mothers, and the role of judgment in our current society – and how it got there. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression** Melanie website See the Queen Victoria yarn bomb here Shop art supplies that Melanie uses here Podcast instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Dr. Melanie Cooper. Melanie is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide, South Australia, and a mother of two. Melanie combines painting and drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet stitching and rug making techniques in her art. In this episode, we chat a lot about art history as Melanie's expertise in the long 18th century, allows us to delve into the role and treatment of artistic women during this era. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression. Thank you for coming on, it's an absolute pleasure to have you. And I'm excited about the different sorts of things that you might be able to share as your role as an art historian, but you're also a visual artist. So let's start with that. Why don't you tell us about your own art practice? My art practice is pretty diverse. I as with my other work as well, I kind of consider myself to be an interdisciplinary artist. So I'm primarily a painter. But I also work across textiles and drawing and, you know, just a lot of a lot of different things I've been making. For as long as I can remember, like, even as a child I was, I've always been making stuff. My work is very personal to me it's very, it's, I guess it's a way for me to articulate things that I find very difficult to communicate verbally or in written language. I'm just kind of really interested in my, I mean, of course, my own experience, but also the spaces in between thoughts and ideas and experience and memory, like, you know, the things that we can't see, I try really hard to not just document experience, and those kinds of things, but also to kind of try and make my own thoughts and feelings visible in some form. So it's kind of it's a way for me to reconcile a whole heap of thinking and a whole heap of experience, but in a way that's really tangible. And so in a lot of ways, it's all about the process. For me, the end, the end point is always a great thing, because people can actually see it, but it's kind of it feels like it's work that's never finished, because I need to keep going. And it's almost ritualistic in a way, I guess, because I'm kind of quite often repeating myself, like, for example, in textiles, I'm using lots of the same sort of stitches. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking and kind of integrating all of those ideas and thoughts and memories and, you know, and, and responses to place as well, I just kind of draw lots of connections from the outside world and sort of it kind of comes in, and then I sort of spit it back out into some sort of form. I don't I don't really, it's a really, really hard thing to explain. Like, it's just it makes sense to me anyway. And hopefully, when people when people will look at it, hopefully they kind of, you know, bring their own ideas to it as well their own responses, and there's no right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to deliver a precise message. You know, people don't have to have a perfect takeaway from it, as long as they kind of, you know, respond to it in some way. I'm happy. So. And that is the great thing about I think, too, in any of its forms that people will take what they need from I suppose in their own interpretation of what, what they're in their life or what they're going through or anything like that. So you're working with textiles, Melanie, what kind of materials are you working with? So with the with my textiles, this is a little bit confusing for people sometimes I consider that to be part of my painting practice. So I work with textiles in the same way that I mean, I know it's a different material. But the way that I you approach that practice is the same way that I approach my painting with the same ideas and the same motivations and the same kinds of thinking. But I use knitting and crochet. And I also use traditional rug making techniques and just a little bit of stitching as well, but predominantly things like punching, which is punching through a hashing surface with a needle and knitting and crocheting pieces of fabric that I sort of manipulate and stitch down and explore with that kind of material material. Process is a really good way For me to sort of like think through a whole heap of stuff, and I kind of figure it out as I go, I'm very intuitive, I don't really sort of sit down and draw up a plan or anything, I kind of work it out as I go. And product, of course, it's always really important, you know, you, you do want people to engage with something that you're really proud of. And it needs to be aesthetically appealing in some way. Whether whether that's a really positive thing, or you know, something that's a bit more challenging for people, that's cool. But it really is, like, the the, for me the whole, it's the process, you know, it's the end product is really, really important, of course, but the process? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know that I would do it. If it wasn't for the process, you know, me like, I'm not just making stuff to decorate things. We thought we've got enough decoration. It's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's something that I still need to think about putting into words, because I find it really, really difficult. Yeah, it's kind of the process of experimentation and exploring, and just finding, finding out how far you can push something is really fun and really interesting as well. Yes, I like new techniques and, and working with things in different ways. And that sort of Absolutely. Tell me about your children. So I'm very fortunate to have a son who's almost 18, and a daughter, who is almost 11. So they're quite far apart in age. But they're just incredible. Little humans, you know, with very different different needs at the moment. They're both still at school, obviously. And, you know, they're both doing their own thing. And, you know, I'm, yeah, they're both. They're both very strong personalities. And of course, that comes with its own challenges sometimes, but I'm actually really proud of the relationship that I have with them. Both. Were really good mates. So I think, yeah, I love my children very dearly as all mothers do, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You say this look seven years between your toy? I've got seven years between my two. Yeah. Some people think, wow, that's huge. And in some ways it is. But in some ways, it's not. Either. It's a funny thing is, Oh, yeah. And it's, I think, I'll be interested to see how they grow as they get older, because my oldest is 12, or 13. And my little ones about to turn six. So at the moment, they have times when they absolutely cannot stand each other. But I think as they get older, and dig becomes out of that little little person stage. They might, I mean, they get on great, don't get me wrong, but things might not be quite as explosive. Do you know, honestly, things can be quite explosive with my kids. And like, that's why I say, you know, they're both very strong personalities. They're both, they're both very, very clever. And they know how to test each other. And they do they, they do get explosive. But the funny thing is as intense as that is, sometimes they also have this really intense love for each other. It's and it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll just walk into a room and I'm like, oh my god, you guys are having a hug right now. What's going on? Is everything okay? Yes, fine. Mom is totally fine. You're sure? Yeah. And it's also because I think they're very different places in their own development. Like they have very, very different needs. Like, you know, Seth, my son, he, at the moment, he just really needs his own space. Sometimes he needs his own privacy and all those sorts of things. Like he's merely an adult. And his little sister likes to kind of walk into his room unannounced and jeans and he's just like, oh, my god, get out. And you know, he's never like, he's just playing a game or something. It's not anything major, but he's just like, leave me alone. And she Yeah, of course, you know, sometimes she just wants to be around her big brother. But and he does it to her too, though. Sometimes she'll be quiet. You know, she'll be sitting on the couch or in her room doing her own thing. And he'll come in and he'll be like, all over and, you know, just in the mood for a joke. And she's like, Oh, no. Yeah, and it all kind of kicks off and I have to Yeah, yeah. It's also really lovely though, when you find them playing, like, you know, when they they take their own initiative to get the ball guy outside and kick her around the backyard together, that kind of stuffs really lovely. Yes. Something good is here. So you said before you've been creating you pretty much your whole life. Has that sort of changed then as you had your children as they came into Your Life, we starting to find that challenge the balance between you and your role as a mother. In different times of my life, definitely. So I can't, I mean, there's a few different things I could say about this sort of stuff. Like, you know, before having kids, I really believed that I needed one full solid day to get something done, you know, I always had this kind of idea that you had to have a full day. And if you didn't have that full day, nine to five kind of idea, whatever those hours were, it really like there's no point. But I've since learned, especially with my second, with Scarlett half an hour, you can actually achieve so much in half an hour. Because sometimes that's all you get. And I mean, it kind of fluctuates, or depending on what's going on with them and where you are, in state, like the stage of their life and stuff. There's been times where I found it incredibly difficult. Like, with my painting practice, for example, I like when I had my son, Seth, I found that really difficult to get back into for a while because I had quite bad postnatal depression. So that kind of was a bit of a block for me for a while. But then after a period of time, I kind of learned when I was sort of working through that I was drawing and things but I kind of went back to knitting, which is something that I've kind of always been doing since I was like about five, but then I sort of realized, you know, this is a really portable medium, and I can just pick it up and put it down, I don't have to go out and studio. So I think that's where it kind of really started becoming this thing that I've incorporated into my practice. And over time, I kind of just kept pushing it more and developing it more. And that's so that's always been there. Like I'm always, you know, carrying around knitting or crochet because it is so portable, and I can't sit on the couch and not do things. So if I have to sit on the couch and nurse a baby or rock a baby to sleep, you know. So like there's, it's there's different ways that you can still be creative, without having to go out into the studio without having to have an entire day. And, you know, try and figure out all the other logistics around that. So I've just, I think I've always sort of looked for ways that I can still fit stuff in. And, you know, like, when they're not sleeping and stuff, that's really good thinking time. So you can use that time in the middle of the night to kind of think about what do I need to do tomorrow, and you start planning and organizing your thoughts. So that when you do have that time, you can just jump straight in, he's not kind of lost, not knowing where to go, what direction to take, or what needs to be done, you can just sort of like jump in and be productive. And I think that's that kind of motivates you and gives you the energy to keep going as well. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that mother who doesn't like I don't want to say adversity, but you know, just the challenges sometimes that you face and the things that you kind of find yourself up against, that you weren't prepared for. I think that's really taught me that yeah, actually, I'm really good at improvising. And, and that's really fun in itself too. Because sometimes you kind of you end up with outcomes you couldn't predict or better outcomes than if you planned and organized everything completely perfectly and down to the last minute. Like, sometimes you just kind of go, you know, do things by the seat of your pants, and you get up the other side of you think, wow, that's actually really great. And that could lead to something else. You know, like, never in a million years would I like when I was painting in art school, I didn't think that I would be you know, knitting in my actual painting practice. I kind of thought that's the thing that I do when I watch TV. And you know, it's not really part of my, my serious art career. But now it definitely is. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun. I think you've learned so much from being a mom. Yeah. And having to having to restructure your own thinking and just make things happen. You know, not just sit around waiting for the time, but actually just making that time you have to, otherwise it will never happen. Yeah, the thing for me as well, like, it's almost like a it's a compulsion for me to make like, it always has been even as a kid like, I just always have to make something and it doesn't always have to be like a big finished painting. Sometimes it is just, you know, something with a lump of air dry clay or, you know, a drawing in the mud out in the backyard or something like, I've just always had to do something. And yeah, it's a it's a compulsion, I think. But it's also I was thinking about this the other day, I think it's also about making a space for yourself, like making art or even just making and staff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself, even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important, as an adult, when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time or it becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an adult. Absolutely. It's like, mental health, you know, and it's, and it's so connected with looking Yeah, looking after yourself. And so, for me, it's very much part of my identity. I think, like, it's, it's not like, the job, the great job that I've got that I go to, and I'll retire from one day, so something that I think is always has always been a part of who I am. Definitely isn't. Yeah, it's one day, you just get to hang it up and go, right i that's finished now. I'm retired. What do I do? Exactly? Exactly. Yes. It's, sometimes it would be nice to sort of like bundle it up and pack it away. But it's no, that's not an option. I don't think. Wanted to ask you just you talked about your painting, how you never thought that your meeting would become part of you the way I think you said you serious art practice? How did how did it become part? Did you one day just decide to combine it like how did it physically happen? Um, it's a very, it's a very good question. So when I was in art school, I, I realized that I detested oil painting, and I. And so I couldn't do live painting anymore. And I wasn't really interested in that anyway. And so I dropped out of that subject. And I had to do another elective and sort of make that as like a, not just an elective subject, but like a major subject, and it was rug making. And I was like, Wow, this sounds really cool. And it's using wool. Awesome, I'll do that. So I learned some techniques. And, you know, just kind of played with that for a bit and then put it away. And when I thought, I just kind of, I kind of just stuffed around with it a bit and picked it up, put it down, and just put it played with those ideas for a while. And I kind of experimented without really taking it very seriously. And then, you know, fast forward a couple of years, I became a member of a studio here in Adelaide called voting booth studios. And I shared that space with several other artists. And at the time, I think there was 12 artists, but I had brought all my things from my old studio into the space and was unpacking stuff and messing around with things and just having a look at what I had. And one of the things that I had was a half finished, rogue or wallhanging, I wasn't really sure what to call it at the time. I pulled it out as looking at it. And one of my friends looked at it and said, Oh, what's this, and I was just this thing that I've just been playing with. And he's kind of like, oh, that's, that's kind of really cool. Maybe you should think about finishing it. I was really, okay. And, you know, I just wasn't at that time, I just wasn't really sure what I was doing. Because, you know, a whole heap of other stuff had just happened. And I was coming through a difficult place. But I just kind of thought, you know, this is an easy thing to pick up and just go on with, I'll maybe I'll figure out what I'm doing next. So I just kind of kept working on this thing. And then it became a finished piece. And I was like, wow. And there was just this one little engineer alpha, I don't really know what to do on this end bit. And I was mucking around with some knitting at home. And I just kind of something told me or compelled me to put that piece of knitted fabric onto the rug, and just see what it looks like. And so I was just like, wow, this is another way of combining surfaces and textures and different techniques, and actually really kind of like what's happening. And so that's what I started doing there. I sort of started messing around with it. And I was really excited by what I had discovered. And so I just kind of thought, what can I do next. And so I started making lengths of knitted fabric and started stuffing about with it in the next pieces and just kind of exploded from there. And I kind of realized, well, I can actually use knitting in the same way that I do. You know, brush strokes and different ways of applying paint, I can actually just make the paint and manipulate it and stitch it down or do something with it. And yeah, the more I do it, the more I do the more ideas or come up with and sometimes my head is just like swimming with ideas. I get really anxious because I don't know if I'm gonna get time to do it all because, you know, that's the exciting thing about knitting, sewing, and especially crochet too. It's only a couple of stitches. But the different ways that you can combine those stitches with different materials and different ways of like different combinations, you end up with so many different kinds of results. So it's exciting. And yeah, it just kind of it just kind of unraveled. And, like a very natural process. It just kind of kept expanding. From there. Yeah, really, that's really awesome story. And I think that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm really grateful for being in that studio at that time. Because, you know, if it hadn't have been for someone walking past and looking at and going, yeah, that's pretty cool. Maybe you should see what happens if you finish it. Like just that little bit of encouragement from a friend, it was like, Yeah, okay, maybe this is worth thinking about. And, you know, the same friend was really amazing, too. I credit him with encouraging me when I had my exhibition, my first solo after that, will not my first solo but my first solo for a number of years, he sort of said to me, you know, the back is the back of that piece is really cool. Maybe you should think about hanging it so people can see the back as well. And that's, that was another really important part of developing my practice as well. He sounds like a pretty useful bloke to have around. I think, yeah, he's he's very generous person. And I think that's also one of the virtues and one of the great advantages of being in a studio with other people working around you. Because sometimes, you can give each other that sort of feedback, or, you know, just the comment of someone walking past is enough to make you think twice about, yeah, actually, maybe I won't throw that in the bin, you know, maybe that is worth spending some more time on. And that's been that's been incredibly valuable to me. So I'm very, I'll always be grateful for that. So you've done also yarn bombing, create, whatever, you're gonna make your knitting or crocheting, and then you go and put it out on structures in the town, or in the city? Yes, yes, I have. And I've had a lot of fun doing that, with a group of friends. We haven't done anything for a while, that tried to make something happen just after COVID. But it kind of fell through. That's a whole other story. But yeah, that's something that I got an enormous kick out of, I have to say, because it's different. It's a bit different now. But originally, the idea was, you make something and you attach it to a public structure somewhere, but you have to do it without being caught and without anyone seeing you because it's kind of illegal. So it's kind of like, yeah, hardcore ladies hit the town. You know, so much fun. The first time the first tag I ever did was just like, this crochet length of bright blue fabric, kind of like a scarf. And I went down one of the alleyways, just for Rundle Street, and my heart was beating. So it's in the middle of the day, and I was like, whipped it on around this pole, stitching it as fast as I could. And my heart was beating so loud, it was roaring you might use skipped off down the street afterwards on such a high. It was just, it was just this simple little band of blue, but it was like yes, I have done this really cool. Outlaw thing. Yeah, that was enormously fun. And then after that, we're just, you know, I kind of need some bow ties, and I attach these bow ties on to, you know, sculptures of people's heads and stuff down North terrorists and things and in the Botanic Gardens. But the really the really cool thing was, many years ago, I can't remember exactly what year it was. But there was this sort of like a street art festival thing that was happening. A former student of mine, Peter Drew, who's now done lots of lots and lots of other things. He was organizing groups of people to paint and, you know, sort of decorate, mini skips. And so I can't I can't remember exactly where I found out about it. I think it might have been a Facebook page or something like that. There was an idea to cover it with knitting like the st. yarn bombing stuff. So I kind of just went on my own. I had no idea I didn't had I didn't know anyone who was going to this thing. I just happened to meet this bunch of gorgeous women. Very different ages, very different backgrounds, and they're all just making these squares to cover this dumpster. It was so much fun and we just got along so well and so we kind of over a period of time. found ourselves in a group that we decided to call a play on the sly. It was enormous fun. We've done so many projects we did. You know, there was a festival coId called, boy you street art festival. There was a whole exhibition in the Festival Theatre. There are a couple of bank sees and other bits and pieces in there and we were asked to cover, I think are called the Mellie tree poles outside. That's like an installation. I'm not sure if it's still there. But we covered these big long poles with, you know, different lengths of fabric and attached insects and flowers and stuff to it. That was so much fun. But one of my favorite projects was a nano nano reckless Julie Collins and I went made a dress for the statue of Queen Victoria. And we had it installed by the Adelaide City Council at like, two o'clock in the morning. They had, they had cherry pickers and council workers attaching this big knitted dress with cable ties to the statue of Queen Victoria. And it was it was so much fun. And it was part like it was around Christmas time. So it was when the whole square was decorated with different things. And just going along, to see that in the middle of the day. And seeing all these people walking past it stopping looking and taking photos of this thing that you'd made. It was just so much fun, because, you know, you're just sort of like sitting there watching everybody else getting so much joy out of this thing that we just did. Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that. We've done stuff for Matthew Flinders and Douglas Mawson, one of my friends met him at balaclava. We've done things for the Robert Burns statue at the front of the State Library. Yeah, things like that. There's been lots of stuff that the group has done, and it's just been wonderful. Yes, we haven't doing that. We're still within the group doing stuff now. Um, well, we were going to do a project for Christmas last year, back in November. And I didn't know how to say in a short way, because I don't want to sort of I don't want to sound negative. But we were asked to do a project. And then the street that we were asked to do it on. People on the the people in the street like the business owners decided no, we don't want that. And that was really, that was really sad. And I found that really upsetting because for some of the people in the group that hadn't actually been able to work on anything, as a group or for themselves for a long time, there was a one mom in there, I know that she was, you know, it was really important to her to get together and to do this thing, because she hadn't done anything for herself for a really long time. And so all of a sudden, we had this thing that was really exciting. And we were we were so excited about getting back together and doing something and it was just taken away because of mismanagement and miscommunication. You know, like the person who was organizing the thing and had asked us to do it hadn't spoken to the business owners properly. So all of a sudden, she just sort of like sent me an email one day and said, You know what, sorry, they just don't want you here anymore. And it was devastating. Actually. It was really, it was really sad. Like, I was fine with it, because I had my own stuff to go with. But as I was saying some of some of the group members hadn't hadn't been doing their own thing for a long time. And it was very important to them that we were doing it. And yeah, all of a sudden, it just wasn't there. So yeah, we do we need to get back together and do something because I think, you know, we just had so much fun together. There's no reason that we haven't done anything for a while. I think it's just like the whole COVID thing and people being busy and life getting in the way. So I think yeah, we just we just need to do it. We just, we just really need to Yeah, you know, put a date in the diary and get together and do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much fun. And we do we all work together so well. We just have very different lives in very different directions. And I think that's that's the only thing that kind of makes it a bit tricky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking about when you put your pieces up, and then you see people their reaction to that. I get so much joy and I it almost it always makes me feel like a little child even reminds me of like Easter time when when I was a kid and you'd be looking for your Easter eggs and you find them hidden in the garden and that amazing feeling of finding things. That's how I feel when I see people's creations all around the place. I just love it. It's such a beautiful I love it too, because you, I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, it is that generosity and that sharing and the joy. But it's also like, it kind of feels a little bit naughty or a little bit not naughty, but like a little bit. You know, people, people being creative outside of the prescribed conventional spaces of institutions and galleries and high end things, it's kind of making things accessible. And it's also like the random accidental thing of finding stuff as well as it's kind of, you know, I'm gonna make this thing and I'm going to put it out there because I can, I'm not going to ask anybody's permission to do it, not going to apply to do it. I'm just going to do it. And I love I love that. It's so it's so much fun. And it's, you know, of course, it's always with the best intentions, but it's also a little bit, you know, it's very empowering actually think it's really empowering. I know it is for me. Yeah, I think it's incredibly generous to because you're not, you're not creating it with any sort of expectation of, I mean, you aren't getting something back. But like, you know, it's not a monetary gain, you're doing it because you love it. And because you know, you're going to bring joy to paper, I think that's just beautiful. I wanted to utilize your expertise as an art historian throughout this discussion, could you just let us know first what the era or the period that you are really drawn to with your art history. So my area of expertise is the 18th century. So that's, that's what I know most, the deepest part of my knowledge and research has always has been the 18th century. Insane. I'm really fascinated and have a really solid understanding of the 20th century as well, because I've studied that in depth too. But also, of course, I'm interested in contemporary art, art of the art that is being made now and the very recent past to and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think researchers, like artists, they develop their interests and their ideas in lots of different directions at the moment and kind of looking more things like iconoclasm as well, which kind of stretches across all periods really iconoclasm for for those who don't know, is the destruction or accidental or intentional of artworks, or buildings and monuments and things like that, too. Yeah. So what drew you to that? It's the 1700s, isn't it? If it's the 18th century, so how it works? Yeah. No, that's cool. And to make things even more confusing, people have different definitions around time periods as well, that so for, for the 18th century, we used to say, oh, you know, that's 1700 to 1800. But the truth is, most people now call it like, referred to that period as the long 18th century. So it's sort of like, T straddles the late 70s, sort of like 1685 1690, through to about 1820. And people kind of debate those precise use, but it does kind of overlap, centuries, either side is 70. Is that because of the work? Was it was the era of that art in that time? Or is that just how historians talk about time periods? It's more around world events and things like that as well. It's not it's not a facade. I mean, the hard thing with art history, whatever period you're looking at, it's, we kind of like to think in nice sort of compartmentalized boxes with nice start and finish points. But the truth is, is that things just overlap. And, and there's not like one linear narrative or style or thing that's happening. There's lots of different things that are happening all at the same time. And we're only really starting to do a better job at recognizing that now. There's multiple histories, and multiple styles and things happening all at the same time. So really history. It's not like this one linear thing. It's like a big spiderweb of, you know, and it's really messy. And that's, that's the thing that makes it really interesting and dynamic, but we're not very good at thinking about things that way. We insist on putting things in nice, neat little categories and everything has to have a neat timeframe. Like it can't be like 1521 to 1673 because that just doesn't feel neat and contained for us. We have this need to contain things, which is crazy because that's not how time Her explore life. I must point out and acknowledge though that that's a very Western way of thinking, like, I'm sure like, I don't have the understanding to talk about this at length, but you know, other cultures and other strange other philosophies or other systems of doing things, think about things in very different ways. So what I'm referring to is, it's a Western perspective. It's not, it doesn't account for everybody, for sure. So within that time period, that long 18th century, what, what drew you to that era, I suppose, like how, why, why that period for you? This goes back to art school. My practice is very, very different to the 18th century, I my my own art practice is radically different. But the reason I was drawn to that is because when we went to when I was in art school, we had to do art history and theory. And we had this lecture in first year, who was very handsome and very charismatic. And everybody hung on every word, he said. And so we went to every lecture thinking, these lectures are amazing, and they're brilliant. And I was one of the fans. I thought he was wonderful. But there was one subject that he did. And it was kind of, I think it was called, like the history of Western art, or something like this. And he started with the caves of Lascaux. And he kind of worked his way through lecture, lecture, the lecture going through the history of Western art. And I remember this one day, he, I can't remember the name of the lecture, but he did the 18th century in one slide. Like I just like, I just have to pause there, because it still blows my mind. It totally blew me away, like, you'd gone. You know, one lecture might have been on surrealism and data, like an entire one hour lecture on surrealism and data, which is a movement in 19, the 1920s, like, you know, a response to the wars and things quite, it's quite a complex movement. But the 18th century, he kind of did this thing where he put up an image by a painter called fraggin, ah, he did a painting called the swing, a put this, this slide up, and I was fresh out of arts, I mean, fresh out of high school, too. So I was very young, I really didn't know very much. And he just put this slide up, and everyone erupted into laughter. And he said, this is like, the 18th century chocolate box fluff and nonsense. That's it. See later, let's jump into the 19th century. And I was just kind of like, I remember sitting there thinking, Why does everybody think this is funny? And why does he just wipe out an entire century with one slide, like, to me, I was like, I had no interest in painting that way, I had no interest in that style from my own work at all. But looking at that painting, I thought, wow, this is actually really, really skilled work. It's really complex. There's all these things happening in that picture. I don't understand what it is. But there's a lot more to this thing. I was just intrigued, absolutely intrigued. And then, you know, I also saw films like Amadeus, and, you know, all the all the period movies and stuff, and I just kind of developed this love for, you know, the 18th and 19th centuries. And then, when I went to study art history, I did four subjects and kept going and, you know, the my love for the 18th century grew. And I was kind of when I came to do my masters. I was like, do I do my Masters on Australian abstraction? Or do I do it on the 18th century, and then I went 18th century because I feel like I know and understand a lot about abstraction, but don't really understand the 18th century enough. So that's what took me that way. And I think it's also because images of that period of very complex nerve, very rich and iconography, which is, you know, the study of signs and symbols to kind of untangle what a pitcher is telling us. And I think that kind of tapped into my love for detective novels, and Agatha Christie and solving the clues. So I think that's what drew me in the most was just, you know, again, fun, lots of fun. And, you know, that period is fascinating, because, so, so much is happening in a very, very short timeframe. When you think about it, so much stuff for life is radically changing. And we've, we've inherited so much of that, you know, bad things as well as good things in within that period of time. There were lots of different movements, or was it the same? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll just very, very quickly tell you that the difference between the 20th century In the age of the long, 18th century, the long 18th century is kind of broken up into three major styles you could argue maybe for. But the 20th century is a very rapid succession of multiple movements. So there's lots of movements all throughout the century, and some of those overlap as well. So, you know, I'd have to sit down and write them down and can't off the top of my head, but lots and lots of movements happening very quickly. So some movements might kind of, you know, be defined by a naysayer decade, but and they resurface and influence other artists as well. So there's lots of overlap. And there's just lots of stuff happening. The 18th century is a century that has been neglected in research and scholarship until up until about the last 10 or 20 years, you know, people just didn't take it very seriously. So there's still a little bit of debate and a little bit like there's a lot of work to be done still. The start of the period, some people refer to as late Baroque, but it's really the Rococo, which is that the very highly decorative style, and then the, from the Rococo, we move into neoclassicism, which is, you know, the more classical austere kind of painting where it's all about heroic virtue, and those kinds of things leading up to the revolution. And then, around the time, like after the revolution, you have a movement called romanticism, which kind of spills over into the 19th century. And that's where you have artists like Turner doing those beautiful images of shipwrecks and storms and things like that. So we're going back to nature and the the power of nature and the sublime and those kinds of things. So it's really like, three year three movements in one century, and they do overlap in some of those artists. So for example, some of the, the artists working the Rococo style, kind of they also, you know, depending on when they were born, and who they were working for, they do kind of creep into the other styles as well. So some of the new classical artists move into romanticism, some of them don't, some of the Rococo artists move into neoclassicism, it really depends on where they are. And I guess that that notion of things have to have a start and finish, it just doesn't work like that things are all overlapping. And, yeah. And it's really formed and shaped by what's happening in the political and social cultural context as well, like, you know, so the easy thing there is like the the revolution, the French Revolution had an enormous impact on artists. So you do see a lot of things happening in the artwork that, you know, as what an art historian does is we look at works that are made in different time periods, and try and understand them in the context that they were made in as well. And that helps us understand what people were concerned by what people were thinking and how lives were lived at that period. Art historians tend to specialize. Like, for example, I specialize in the 18th century, but also look at contemporary art. Also look at modern art, sometimes I look a little bit at the 17th from the 19th. But I couldn't tell you very much about the Byzantine period, for example, there's just so much stuff out there. Art historians, we don't memorize dates and titles of paintings and things because that's connoisseurship. What we do is we look at objects and images as primary sources of material that can tell us it's kind of it's like detective work, you know, historians look at letters and documents and things and to tell the story of a person or what's happening in a period of time. And that's what we're doing with objects and images, where, you know, we're talking about the history of the work and the artist itself, but we're also recognizing it, doesn't it? Nothing is made in a vacuum, like, you know, artists are working in all different kinds of circumstances and political climates. And it really does shape what's being made. And not just visual art, but music and literature as well. Yeah. I mean, I've given very, very short, brief overviews of things. I've felt I have simplified things a lot. But I think, like, for example, when I when I say, you know, that 18th century has been a period that hasn't been as loved up until now, it's very different now. But when I started doing my Masters, people were still dismissing the Rococo, which is like the earliest period of the 18th century, there was some really groundbreaking research happening and the art historian is really fighting for the for that area of the discipline to be taken seriously, and they've done amazing work since but I think, you know, art history, it's like any other discipline, I guess, you know, it is susceptible to fashion you know, sometimes it It's hard to, you know, study an Australian colonial art, you know, I don't know, like it does go through fashion. But I think the 18th century really was quite overlooked. I'm not sure about the other disciplines, but definitely in art history, it was overlooked and not taken very seriously for a long time. That's his, like you said there was so much happening at that time, there was so much going on, and so much changing. And then it's like, oh, we're not actually going to write it. You know what I mean? Well, I can, again, I'll give you a very short answer for that, um, things like neoclassicism and romanticism, which happens later in the century were studied and taken more seriously. Like I, you know, I, like I was saying I did sort of condense what I was saying, and I simplified it a lot. They were taken seriously, much more seriously, for a long time than the first part of the century, which is that period that I refer to, or everyone refers to as the Rococo. And that is, because when we look at and this is, this is why that slide that I mentioned, was laughed at. Because it is so pretty, it is so feminine, it is so over the top decorative, it's ostentatious, it's, you know, it's just the height of frivolous for some people. And, you know, people kind of look at that, and the thing Oh, that's so ridiculously chocolate box, which is exactly what the lecturer said, like, there's, it's all feminine, decorative nonsense, there's no substance to it. And in that period of time, you know, women were powerful patrons, and they were really helping to shape fashion. And so, you know, sadly, because there were so many women involved, it was denigrated as fluff and nonsense, and it's totally not, like, once you start researching and looking at those images properly, and like looking at the culture in the social context of the period, it was enormously sophisticated and very, very progressive. Um, but, you know, historic later historians, you know, sort of later, later, from the 19th century, in particular, kind of looked back on that time and said, Oh, it's, it's all just feminine. You know, let's look at the stuff that's much more serious. And, you know, much more interesting, because, you know, it's about war. You know, the forces of nature and exploration and things, which is, of course, fascinating. But that's, that's really why people didn't take the early period of the 18th century. Seriously, for a long time. Yeah, because it was too feminine. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, it's just about flowers and puppies, you know, but there's a lot there's so much more. That's hilarious. Yeah, and it's a very simplistic view, because, of course, they're really looking at, you know, paintings and fashion and things. But, you know, the Rococo, you have to look at what was happening in, you know, maths and architecture, like there is that period of the Rococo period, and that style, that movement informed mathematics. I don't understand how that is, but it does. I'm not a mathematician, but I have read that it informed architecture and garden design and, you know, philosophy. It's incredibly rich period, the artists were talking to, you know, writers and philosophers and musicians, they were all generating and exchanging ideas and these really amazing communities. Yeah, like you said, before the community having people together, and yeah, bouncing ideas off of each other. So we briefly briefly touched on the involvement of women in that era, during that time were women painting, or were they more, like you said, the patrons of that era. So this is really this is really, really interesting. So both in that period of time, you know, the, I'm trying to think of how to make this a short story, not a very long one. So, in that period of time, women, I've got to be careful how I say this, because I'm not saying women were completely liberated from, you know, systems of patriarchal oppression because they certainly weren't. But women with money and power became very influential patrons. So one patron in particular, I'll give you one example Madame de Pompadour or was the king's favorite. She was a woman from a middle class background, she worked her way up. And she became a very, very influential patron of the arts. And she was a very good friend to artists and philosophers, musicians, scientists, she was an intellectual woman. And she held her own salons. And she, yeah, she patronized, you know, she, she commissioned artists to, and not just visual artists, but all kinds of artists to make work for her. And so that kind of patronage was really, really important to artists, you know, in sustaining their careers and their incomes, but also in shaping the visual culture of the time as well. And so yes, women with money and power and privilege, were definitely heavily involved in shaping the visual culture. For artists, female artists, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. There were some really, and I'll use the word exceptional. And some some art historians do use that term, too. There were exceptional art, women artists who had the support to train in, you know, studios that have their brothers or their fathers, for example. And at that time, women weren't allowed to go into the academies, except for a couple of women that we call the exceptional women. So for example, Angelica Kauffman, and Elizabeth Vichy LeBron, were two examples of female artists who worked in like they entered, they were permitted entry into the French Academy. And they became very successful artists. And they worked for the crown. And for example, LeBron and Kaufman, they worked for the Queen's at the time as well, for Marie Antoinette. And so they were very good friends of very powerful people. But that was quite rare. It wasn't, it wasn't as common. It was, it was much. No, I think, I think the thing about being a woman artists at that time was, you know, you really needed to have the support of men around you, like you needed to, you know, have, especially early in your life, because you sort of started training, as a child, or as a very young adult, you really needed to have access to a studio. And that was really out of the reach for females, unless you had a brother or a father, you might have been helping them make their work in the studio and have access to materials, someone might look at what you were doing, and say that's really, that's really great, we're going to try and get you some teaching, they might go and work with another artist and you know, gain some more skills. But the process is much more difficult for a female to become a professional academic painter. There were also other artists who, and this is where it gets. Again, I don't I don't want to go on and on too much, because it's not an art history lesson. But there were other artists who worked in pastels, for example, they didn't do the traditional academic painting, they use pastels to make beautiful images of flowers and portraits and things. And some of those women were working very independent of the academy. And that's how they sort of sustained their practice. But they weren't considered professional in the same way that the members of the academy and the painters to the Crown were. So you had different groups, I guess the thing was, gaining entry into the academy was that you had to, you had to sort of like, do a whole heap of training and learning first, but then to enter into the academy, you had to paint what they what we call an academy reception piece. So it was always like it had to be a grand painting. With a mythological or historical subject matter. It couldn't be a portrait or a landscape. It had to be like a religious work or something like that. And then that was judged and if that was good enough, then they could enter into the academy. But when I shouldn't say too, when I say exceptional for the women, it wasn't just that they were exceptionally talented or exceptionally good. What I mean by that is that women like Angelica Kauffman, for example, she she was very successful. She was an independent professional artist. She was considered exceptional, not just because of her talent, but the fact that she was a woman. You know, it's like, women aren't really supposed to be good at these things. Women are, you know, the too imaginative. They're too irrational and emotional to be doing work. In the same capacity as men, right? Well, because because she's a woman, she's exceptional. And it's a heartbreaking thing to say like, and I still I find that really difficult because you know, in that period women, like Pompadour, for example, she was the king's favorite she was a powerful patron she was an intellectual she, she was also a printmaker, she was doing all these amazing things. She was, she was, of course, very, very powerful and privileged because of the position she was in. But she was also someone who came from a middle class background and worked her way up. But these, these women were standout figures. And we we call them exceptional, because that's not that's not the normal life of a woman in that period like that they are elite women. And even even when you do have privilege behind you, you're still you still have to go the extra mile to, you know, advance yourself and to prove your capacity more than your male counterparts. Do, you know, you have to work harder to get there and to keep that position. As you it's really, because men and women were considered to be completely opposite, like men were the rational creatures capable of higher thinking and academic pursuit and women were nurturers and mothers and imaginative creatures prone to hysteria, things like that. Let's see exactly how they spoke about them. You know, women, women had the creative impulse, but they're also too imaginative and emotional to sort of harness those qualities into our interior rational way to make something more, more worthy of the academy, for example, I don't really know how to explain it. It's, yeah, they couldn't harness all of that stuff that creative people have, in a way that was balanced and reasoned enough to achieve, you know, a great work of art. Yes, it's like the eyes of men. Yeah, in the eyes of men. And so that's an even in art criticism, like, we do have documents where art critics are saying, oh, you know, this particular artists would be much better, you know, doing their paper flower cutouts, because they were looking at crafting. And this is where our denigration of craft comes from, too. That's associated with the feminine stuff. So they're kind of I don't know, you're not really good enough to be a professional painter, just go into your crafty stuff instead, you know, is that hierarchy? It's very gendered? Yeah. I think that we are getting better at that. But I think that kind of does still persist, sometimes. So these women that you talk about that went to the academy, where they mothers as well. This is where I'm not, I don't know a lot about their biography. I know that LeBron had one daughter, and I think her name was Xian. And she actually appears in lots of her portraits. I don't know their story very well, I think. I think this little girl was in lots of portraits. And so she would have been very close to her mother at that time. But for some reason, I think, later in life, their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm not really sure why. But you know, she was her mother was painting her, so she was subject matter. And there are, of course, other artists, especially in the 20th century, who have used and postmodern period as well, who have used their children as part of their artworks. Yeah. Is that something I'm really interested in? Is that that this challenge between their work and their role as a mother, is that something that women artists have faced in the past? I mean, I'm sure that it can you say you can you say it in the work? Or does it come out in the work or is it? Is it something that you've you can research? That makes sense? There's the Oh, wow. It's like, you know, there's so many different ways of being an artist, and there's so many different ways of being a woman in so many different ways of being a mother. So I think, like, for example, Barbara Hepworth, I'm just pulling out examples as I think of them. Barbara Hepworth was a sculptor and her work is quite abstract, but I know that she, she really considered being a mother integral to her practice. I don't know a lot about her work, but I know that she did consider her children to be as, like very influential on her like she loved being a mother and she thought that was really important to her practice, but also know that there are lots of artists like feminist artists who would have loved to have children but didn't have children because they knew having children would have a big, like a detrimental impact. on their career, so there are artists who have consciously made the choice not to have children. Louise Bush was another artist and nothing she had five children. She, again thrived on being a mother, I'm not sure how that shaped her practice for her. But there's another artists birth Maura, so an impressionist artist, and her daughter is, again, provide subject matter for her. We have lots of images where you see her daughter making an appearance. And I think she, I think her daughter was a model for other artists as well. So in, in lots of ways children have been subject matter for artists. In other ways, they've just, you know, I suppose, been around and provided their mums with energy. And, you know, I don't Yes, it's fair, it's very different for all artists, I think. I have friends who are mothers and artists now and I know, a couple of them motherhood is a very, like, it's a central theme in their practice. And their work is very specifically about motherhood and about their children. So I think I kind of get the sense that it's easier to make that kind of artwork now than it has been, like in the early modern period, for example. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say, too, is just going back to the early modern period, there's lots of artists. This is another thing that's really sad. There's lots of other artists who are very, very good painters, but a lot of their work has been lost or destroyed. So a lot of their work we just don't even know, we don't have record of and there are other artists working in the Baroque and Renaissance periods, for example, where their workers that we were starting to learn now their work has been mis attributed to male artists. Ah, so there's a lot of stuff we just don't know yet. Hopefully, we do uncover more. But, you know, there are other artists who are very prolific, and then they have children, and, you know, their career finishes, or slows down, or some artists have been fortunate enough to have husbands who were very, very supportive and have nurtured their careers, other artists. I can't remember her name. Now. I read this in passing the other day. She was a composer. She was forbidden to practice by her husband when she had children. So she just stopped. And I think I'm trying to think of her name. It's just escaped me, which is really terrible. She was associated with the Bauhaus artist. So I think what happened with her is she stopped practicing. But it took over a period of years, it took her an enormous toll on her health and well being. And for some reason, I think her husband was convinced, actually, no, you need to let her do her work again. And so she did do some work before she died. But she lost a lot of time. Yeah. Well, that's what her name was. I have, I'll have to go back through the book that I was reading the other day and find her name for you if you're interested. Because she's Yeah, composer. I think her husband, I'm not sure if he was an artist, but he was definitely associated with the Bauhaus school, which is designers and artists in Germany. Yeah, I don't. It's just something that I came across the other day. I don't know very much about that about her. But that just kind of really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. terribly sad. So I think there's a lot more we could we could say, but it hasn't been written and recorded or research yet or hasn't been found yet or it's been raised. Yeah. In terms of your identity, as a mother, I asked my guests this question about, I do the air quotes, is it important to you to be more than just a mom and I say just a mom, because I know that's not a correct statement? Is it important for you to keep that identity and not become mum? Just mum? Absolutely. Um, for me, it's vital. And I think, again, as I was saying earlier, I think that's a really big part of my mental health. You know, being an artist, I guess is at the core of my identity. And I think it always has been, but also in terms of my children looking at me, I think, you know, it's important for both of them, not just my daughter, but for my son to to see that, you know, women, even in their roles as mothers and nurtures they're multifaceted multi dimensional beings and, you know, we have our own interest, not just career or art was have our own likes and dislikes and responses to things, we have our own feelings around stuff. You know, things impact us as much as they impact someone else would we hold everything together, but we need to be looked after as well. And sometimes we need to look after ourselves. And you know, that's critical. It's absolutely critical. And, you know, one day, we're not going to be doing the, the, the intense hands on mothering where our children are so dependent on us, they're going to go and live their own lives. And, you know, they need to, they need to acknowledge that we have our own lives going on as well. And we need to acknowledge that we need to take that we need to hold on to that. Because otherwise, you know, there's so much I think there's so much potential loss, if you don't, hold on, hold on to something for yourself. And I can't imagine what that would be like. Yeah, and I also feel like, as a, as a mother, myself, I never wanted to be that authoritarian, just just mum kind of person, I want it to be a friend, I want it to be someone that they would, you know, feel comfortable coming to want to have around later on in life. And they're doing their own thing, too. You know, I don't want to just be the mum who does everything for everybody. I want to be the person who is counted on as a friend as well. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's motherhood Being a mother is a multi dimensional thing. It's not just you do the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning, taking the kids to school, changing the nappies. It's much more than that. Like, there's, there's a whole unique, amazing individual underneath all of that. And that person still needs to live. Like, you know, and they need to, they need to thrive like everybody else does. Yeah, it's important, obviously, important to you, for your children to say that in you to recognize Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, they're not getting the best of me. And I know, of course, there are days, they're not getting the best of me because I'm tired and worn out. And I haven't given myself enough time or something. But that's my responsibility. Right? Like, you know, I can't, I was saying to my cousin who's a single father the other day, he's really struggling, being a single dad in lockdown sometimes. And I said to him, like, if you don't, if you don't put self care at the top of your list, you can not be the best dad for your child. Long term. You can't sustain it like, you do have to look after yourself. Yeah, whatever. And that looks different for everybody. Yeah, no, but let's see. Yeah, absolutely. I really value the stay at home mum, as well, as much as I do the working mom, you know, I think we've got to be careful of, not sort of, I worry sometimes that we diminish the role that mums have if they choose to opt out of a career because they want to stay at home. I think that's a really powerful, meaningful, valuable thing to do. I think that's incredible. I know that I'm not capable of that. But also know that mums who are doing that, even if they're not working in a job that's paid and acknowledged, it's more important for them to maintain a sense of their identity, because, you know, otherwise, there's a danger of losing themselves in that. And then when their kids leave, like I was saying, what's left, you know, they need to have something that's just for them for themselves. Do you know what being a mum is? bloody difficult. It's probably one of the hardest jobs in the whole world. It is the hardest job in the whole world. For lots of different reasons. I think like it's, it's incredibly tough. And I think yeah, like I was saying, I think doing the stay at home mom thing is the toughest gig of all and I know that I'm not capable of that. I have an immense admiration for people who are doing that. They deserve everything, they deserve all the credit and they deserve that timeout and they deserve being looked after and acknowledged and honored and supported and I worry that they don't get that enough. I worry that even as women we don't give them that enough so I guess then that sort of leads me into the the concept of mum guilt. I think after you know, after the podcast that you're doing, I think you're becoming the expert on this. So I would love to know what you think on that. I think you know what I think I know that I've definitely suffered mother guilt for a different reason. There's a couple of strands of thinking here that I've got. So I think the whole thing with mum do I think, is reflective of a deeply patriarchal society that we live in. And what I'm going to say is I don't think that it's, and I'm trying to be careful about how I word this. I don't think it's necessarily men who are telling us to feel guilty. I feel like we're doing that to each other. I feel like I'll give you an example of this. When I, when I had my children, I was super, super lucky. I was able to breastfeed really easily, like I had absolutely no problem, I loved it. And it was, it was just like, falling away, oh, when my cousin had a child, not long after, and she found it incredibly difficult to breastfeed. She tried everything she could think of. And she was in agony. And I don't really know the particulars, but I know she really, she gave it a good crack. And she ended up having her her baby bottle fed and this nose. So this is like 18 years ago, too. It's not like yesterday. So I need to say things are changing. But, you know, the pressure and the judgment and the criticism that she got for that choice came from other women. And she really struggled with that guilt for a long time of like, I can't feed my child, the way everyone's telling me I should be. I'm not a good mom. And I'm like that, that is, to me, one of the most damaging things that we can do, is judging each other and not supporting each other. I think living in a patriarchal society means that if you're socialized as a heteronormative, woman, or girl, you're also taught that we're in competition with each other in lots of different ways. And I think that comes out in motherhood too. Like, if your child isn't sleeping all the way through at six weeks, you're doing something wrong. If you take a day home by yourself, and you're not working, you're doing something wrong. If you can't breastfeed, you're doing something wrong. If you don't give birth, naturally, you're doing something wrong. So I think I really feel like certainly for me, that's where a lot of guilt initially came from. I don't really do that anymore. Like, sometimes I kind of struggle with putting myself first like I bang on about that all the time. But I'm not always very good at doing that. But you know, my guilt, or my shame, I shouldn't say shame came from experiencing postnatal depression with my son. You know, I felt such shame for that. Because I really, at that time, I don't believe it anymore. But at that time, I really felt like I wasn't a good mom. And you know, and I think the other thing is, it's not always what we say to women is what we don't say to women, you know, we at that time, I know it's different. Now, I know it's changing. But at that time, people weren't really talking about postnatal depression, and I was terrified. I thought, you know, what, if I tell my doctor that something's not right, I think they might say that I don't deserve to have my child. Like, you know, I was honestly I was, I was petrified. And then, when things kind of settled down for me, and I was on medication, I just had that overwhelming shame. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing I'm not doing a good enough job. Like, I'm not as amazing as that lady over there with her five kids is, you know, like, was so in love with this little baby, but I couldn't get it right. And something was wrong, and I couldn't understand it. So I think, yeah, I think that's the closest that I've really had to that full on mom guilt. And I just kind of feel like, we need to do more as women to encourage and support each other. But talk about and this is why I think your podcast is so amazing. We need to share all the crap stuff because there's so much crap stuff. And I'm sorry, being a mom is amazing. And it's an honor, it's a privilege, but there is so much crap in it. There's so much stuff that there's so much stuff that hurts there's so much stuff that's ugly and demoralizing and upsetting. And so many so many things that other people just don't understand. But you know, we need to at least acknowledge it and we need to, we need to tell our own children. You know what? Childbirth isn't easy. And it's okay, if you feel like shit after you've had your child like it's okay. Like all of these things are okay. And it's normal and a million other people are doing it too. Because it's so and you know, like I I learned so much from that experience, and I think it's, it's certainly taught me things so that hopefully I can be a much more empathetic ache mother friend, whoever I need to be for someone else, you might go through that. But, you know, like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and all that. It's, I don't know, I just kind of remember how confusing it all was too, because I desperately wanted my son like, he was a baby I literally prayed for, like, you know, I wasn't interested in becoming a mother for the longest time. And all of a sudden, I desperately wanted and wanted to have this baby. And he didn't come for a while. And then when he did come, and then I had him and I was looking at his eyes, I was absolutely honestly, had never felt such love. But at the same time, I was petrified out of my mind. And I was really sad and anxious. I felt like oh, my God, I've, I'm going to break this thing, I'm going to do something wrong. And then the more I plummeted into that, anxiety and depression, I thought, if I say anything to anybody, they're gonna take my baby. Like, though, in the very, very early days before I told my doctor, I thought someone's going to take him away from me. And I think that's why I didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't want to be judged. I did talk to my parents about it. I talked to, you know, my son's grand grandmother about it as well, very early on. And they're the ones who actually kind of steered me over to the doctor to get some medication. Thank goodness, because I wasn't in a very good way. So and, you know, that, yeah, it takes a really long time to get your head around that and a really long time to, to say those words. But there's so important. And I think this is another reason why I think your podcast is so immensely valuable, because I think if someone had just said to me, 18 years ago, it will be okay. And you were going to do great. And you're going to do all these other things, too. I think they would have made a big difference. And you're not a bad mom, and you're an amazing Mum, you just need a little bit of support like everyone does. So yeah, thank goodness, I think I think things are changing. I think we are starting to talk about mental mental health in the mainstream. Much more than we did, but yeah, geez. First time mother. That's crippling. It's really crippling. But again, I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a real depth of knowledge and wisdom that comes from that experience two things. I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter at all. I had the postnatal depression with my son. And that was a very traumatic birth. And I think, yeah, maybe it was a PTSD thing. The I think the reason maybe I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter is because I said, I'm not doing that. Again, I'm having this as Aryan thanks. Because, you know, I sustained some injuries and things as well. And like that was that was quite an ordeal for me. And I think because I made that decision early that might have had a bit of an impact. But I remember with my son too, like, there were nights, but I just didn't sleep. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, that was a big thing. I just did not sleep and not not because he was a bad sleeper, but I literally couldn't sleep. And I remember one of the nurses who came to the house to check in on me and stuff. She said to me, oh, when you can't sleep, why don't you just use that time to do your painting? And I was just like, I can't because I literally was paralyzed. I felt sometimes like I was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a really hard space to be in and being creative. I couldn't read a book. Like I honestly couldn't read a book. So I think to create work when you're in that space is I think it's probably impossible. It's like you barely functioning. It's like having a shower was just like, wow, this big achievement. Yep, absolutely. When you say it now, it seems like so unreal. But well, the energy that that takes is incredible. Like, yeah, it's something that you just can't be understated how, how debilitating that is and how we really need to support people who are in that I was gonna say I've always been very opinionated. And having that experience on these kinds of issues has made me even more opinionated and more vocal. And, you know, sometimes I get quite angry. And I think because it's like, yeah, I know what that's like. But you know, that to go back to that thing about the breastfeeding thing? Yeah, I had an awesome experience, I had an awesome pregnancy. But when I hear about someone who's not having that same experience, and who's really struggling and are being judged and criticized for become equally passionate about that, because I'm like, This is not okay. Like, you know, we need to be supportive of each other, especially women, we need to be supportive of each other, whatever our experiences and choices are, whether that's around motherhood, birth career, or not, whatever that looks like, whatever our choices are, we really need to, you know, support that. I think that's the most powerful thing we can do. That's interesting, by the way, that judgment? Yeah, it's interesting. Why do we judge each other like that? Like, is it because Is it is it going back to Days of having to compete for the affections of men or something? So you put other women down? So it makes you look better? Like, is it? Why do we do? I'm not, I'm not really I don't really know. But I have, I have read that in a patriarchal culture, like a Western patriarchal culture, women are socialized to be in competition with each other. And we are kind of socialized to think that there's limitations on resources and, you know, limitations on access to men and all of these kinds of crazy things. Like if you want to, you know, I mean, it goes back into history to like, you look way back into history, like it was really important to be engaged by a particular time in your life. And if you weren't engaged and married, it was a serious problem, you know, and so people, like, even if you watch Jane Austen Oh, yeah, there's always threads, you know, women are in competition with each other, because they want to get the best pick of the of the man to have them, you know, to validate who they are, as women and people in society, it's crazy. I think we've been doing that for a very long time. And not just not just around men, I think, you know, just as we frame ourselves as women in relation to each other and our positions in society, we might not think that consciously, but I think that's embedded in our collective consciousness or something somewhere, it's like, you know, a baby cries. And we have that no one says, When your baby cries, you have to do the thing you are compelled, like, your, your urge is to go out and check your baby, pick it, pick the baby up and do particular things. Because that's what you're built to do. And I think there are, I mean, we're animals, I think these things are so deeply embedded in our primal brain and our collective consciousness and all those things that I'm not familiar, like, I don't have enough knowledge on that. But I think that's got a big part to do with it. But I think we, you know, we're acknowledging it and talking about it. So hopefully, that's a really big step in starting to dismantle some of that stuff. In all of the things that I've said, I should also, you know, definitely point out that in all the the competitiveness and things that we've been talking about, there are some amazing communities that you find that you do find for yourself, where you do get that support, and that friendship, which is absolute gold. And, you know, for me, I've found that with two, two women when my son went to kindy. So it took me took me a long time to find that, but, you know, I've maintained those friendships for the last 14 years now, and I always will, you know, it's incredible. What we've, you know, the friendship that we've given to each other this whole time, it's unconditional, you know, like, it's it. Yeah, it's really unconditional. So there is there is all of that richness and beauty there, too. But, yeah, I really like it, if that became the norm, like if that was the biggest story, and the other things that we that we've been discussing were, you know, rare incidents. We can talk about, you know, what in history that used to happen, and yeah, exactly. The you know, what you're saying now to about the competitiveness thing, I actually get such a thrill. I'm always so excited when I see anybody regardless of gender, or whether or not there a mum or dad. I get such a kick out of seeing people take their own initiative and do their own stuff and make their own things happen. And so, yeah, I'd like to tell you that You know that you're taking your own initiative to do this podcast. When I, when I first found out about it, I was so excited about it because I thought, wow, this is, this is something that you're doing. It's your own project because you care about it. And it's meaningful, and it's, you know, sustaining you, it's wonderful, but you're also giving such a gift to so many people. So well done. That is a fair, that's a very, very long way away from being competitive. That's, that's incredibly generous. And it's really wonderful to see. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Okay, it's exciting. It's wonderful. And and you know, what, it's actually a really brave thing to do to, to do a podcast and to share and, you know, to talk to people about all this kind of stuff. I'm at the moment, I'm taking some time out to experiment and explore in my practice, because this year already I've had working for exhibitions. And I've been teaching and studying as well. So I'm sort of on a little bit of a, like, I've got little bits of paid work happening. But in terms of exhibitions and stuff for the rest of the year, I don't have anything on the go. At the moment, I'm just taking this time to play with ideas and materials in my studio, and have a bit of a break to probably for exhibition. Yeah, oh my gosh, though, they were amazing. But because of COVID, it meant that some exhibitions were pushed forward. And all it was all just in the timing. So, you know, three exhibitions, were pretty much back to back. And to two exhibitions that I had opened in the one week, that was pretty intense. It was pretty intense. And so it was kind of like, Yes, I need time to recover. I also need time to just play. Like, I just need to play with my materials. And I've already I've already got ideas for my next series of work, but I just want to explore the potential of different techniques and materials at the moment. Um, to kick that off, we then just take a bit of a breather you know, Oh, tell you something really funny. I'll never forget this. When I was doing my PhD, I had to, I was doing full time study. And then I had to go down to part time and stuff. So my PhD took a little bit longer than I thought it would. And I remember my son said to me, one day, see that little girl walking around over there. And that was my daughter. He said, that's your PhD. Because I, when I was doing my PhD, six months in, I fell pregnant, I didn't realize that this was going to happen, fell pregnant, and I had my daughter and I'm still doing my PhD when she was like, three. You know, I kind of submitted not that long after but he was like, there's your PhD running around over there, mom, and I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was and it was quite startling, because you already knew like I was when he said that I was sort of like in the process of winding it all up. And you know, I was on the homestretch. But he was like, there she is. A PhD. That is gone. Yeah, it's like, making visible the the length that it has taken me to do this thing. Yeah. And all the effort that you've put into here, rather than the PhD. It's just yeah. That is hilarious. Thank you very much, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat and all the best with everything you've got coming up. Thank you so much, Alison, and congratulations on a fantastic podcast and wish you all the best for the future in this fantastic project that you have. It's been really fun talking to you today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Allison.

Rachel Larsen Weaver US photographer + artist-educator S2 Ep69 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) Rachel Larsen Weaver is an artist-educator and photographer joyfully living on the Maryland beaches of the Chesapeake Bay as a mother to five. Rachel enjoyed writing as a child and she has always been a reader. Rachel studied an Masters of Fine Arts in Creative Writing in College, creative non fiction and writing personal essays was her passion. She spent 10 years as a teacher and in her current life calls back to this in her mentoring roles. When her 3rd son was born, she wanted to start a blog, and in an effort to provide good quality pictures - she bought a camera - and her passion for photography was ignited. She was inspired to improve the quality of her photos and soon she was approached to take photos for others. She delved into studying photography as an artform and heavily invested herself in researching photography, seeking mentors and improving her knowledge. Her style of photography is reflective, deeply embedded in story telling and through her Long Form Sessions where she spends days with her clients in their homes, she is finding the joy in the hidden and messy places. She's about helping others see the beauty in themselves, the days, families, and worlds they create - and the homes that hold them. Her firm belief is that self-love and self celebration are not reserved for the thin, white, young, able bodied, cis-gendered female. She creates environments for people to be seen and to be heard. Rachel is so passionate about sharing every body and leads by example with her own self portrait projects. She has worked hard on self acceptance and encourages others to do the same through her Finding Myself in Portraits project. Her portfolio and practice is fat-affirming, mindful and genuine, focusing on the life and light of her clients. Rachel travels the country documenting mothers, bodies and details. Rachel’s unique ability to call people home to themselves, their bodies, their passions and their worlds is precisely the gift made manifest in her photo work. By grounding into presence and remaining stubborn in her commitment to joy, Rachel brings a clear sense of purpose (and humour) to her life and her work with clients. Connect with Rachel website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website / Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest today is Rachel Lassen Weaver. Rachel is a photographer, and an artist educator living on the Maryland beaches of the Chesapeake Bay in the United States, and she's a mother to five children. Rachel enjoyed writing as a child, and she was always a reader. She studied a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing in college, creative nonfiction, and writing personal essays was her passion. She spent 10 years as a teacher, and in her current life calls back to these in her mentoring roles. When her third son was born, Rachel wanted to start a blog. And in an effort to provide good quality pictures, she bought a camera and her passion for photography was ignited. She was inspired to improve the quality of her photos, and soon she was approached to take photos for others. Rachel delved into studying photography as an art form, and heavily invested herself in researching photography, seeking mentors and improving her knowledge. Her style of photography is reflective, deeply embedded in storytelling, and through her long form sessions, where she spends days with her clients in their homes. She is finding the joy in the hidden and messy places. She is about helping others see the beauty in themselves, the days families and worlds they create and the homes that hold them. Her firm belief is that self love and self celebration are not reserved for thin, white, young, able bodied, cisgendered female, she creates environments for people should be seen and to be heard. Rachel is so passionate about sharing every body and leads by example, with her own self portrait projects. She has worked hard on self acceptance and encourages others to do the same. Through her finding myself in portraits project. Her portfolio and practice is fat affirming, mindful and genuine, focusing on the life and life of her clients. Rachel travels the country documenting mother's bodies and details. Her unique ability to call people home to themselves, their bodies and their passions and their worlds is precisely the gift made manifest in her photo work. By grounding into presence and remaining stubborn in her commitment to joy. Rachael brings a clear sense of purpose and humor to her life and her work with clients. The music you'll hear today is from my ambient new age music trio called LM Joe made up of myself, my sister Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Rachel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's lovely to meet you. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me, Allison. Yeah, you're in Maryland, Maryland. Good job. Yeah. Yeah, we say Maryland, Maryland. Yeah. Whereabouts is that sorry, forgive me. My geography is not great. It's on the east coast of you of the US. It's the state that Washington DC the Capitol got chopped out of? Basically Washington DC, is in Maryland's region. Yeah. Okay. Then I know. I know what you mean. Now? What happened there? Why did they do that? So I was like, kind of Central Coast when it was the 13 colonies. And originally for Virginia had given Pete a piece too, because that's the state right below us. And it was a perfect square. But then Virginia took back their peace, I think during the Civil War when they joined the Confederacy, so now it's just like, the peace out of Maryland. That's funny, isn't it? Hmm. When when I read that you're on Chesapeake Bay, which is really cool, because I've been we were massive fans of the Hamilton musical. And there's a bit with the Chesapeake Bay. It's like anyone? Shout out. Excellent. What time is it? What day is it for you Tuesday? It's Tuesday and it's 10am. Yep. So beautiful. Where it? What is it for you there? It's 7:30pm. Monday on Monday. Yeah, cool. Okay. That's one of the things I love about doing this is just like, I used to have a lot of pen pals when I was a kid. And I was always fascinated by what the weather was, like, where they lived and what time it was, you know, all that sort of stuff. I love. I love it. It's so cool. We're both at like transitional seasons right now. Right? Going into spring. So it feels like we're extreme. Yeah. So we're halfway, like springs officially started. But we're we're going to start summer, next month. So we're like, it almost feels like it's going back to autumn. Now. It's really weird. The mornings are really cold. But then the sun comes out and it's beautiful. Then Then it starts raining. It's like it's wearing a mishmash of everything right now is bizarre. What part of Australia are you? So I mean, Matt Gambia, which is right down the bottom. In South Australia. It's almost like there's a border between South Australia and Victoria. And I'm about 10 minutes from that two minutes drive. Right, almost almost at the coast, probably half an hour from the coast. So yeah, it's an interesting place because we get a lot of like the weather comes across, like the Tet the Tasman Strait is like freezing cold. So we get all that weird weather. But then sometimes in summer we get the northerly winds. And it's boiling hot, like 40 degrees Celsius. I don't sorry, I don't know what that is in. You're really hot. I know. Like, yeah, and we'll have days of that on end. But then it will just go back to like, I don't know, it's really weird. Really weird. You have more seasons that Northern Australia. Yeah, we're really distinct. Like out there. They have like a wet season or dry season pretty much they I don't think they dispense with the traditional, you know, summer or winter, spring or fall. You call it fall over? Yeah. We call it either. It's allowed. It's actually cool watching all these physical fall a lot of people from America and it's like it's sweater weather. No, this was a good American accent there too. I love it. Everyone's getting like the pumpkin spice lattes and Oh, God love so you're a photographer. Can you share with us what you do? How you got into it? Tell us all about what you do. So originally my like, creative medium. What I studied in college, and when I started my MFA, do you have to ask isn't that translates right? Yeah, yes, it does. Yes, was in was in creative writing. And so writing was really my focus, creative nonfiction in particular, like writing personal essays. But when my third son was born, I wanted to start a blog. I like felt like it was the time where everybody had a blog, blog, too. And if you have a blog, you need pictures that nobody's gonna read your blog. So I bought a camera, really just so that I could have pictures for my blog. And because the writing was the part I was more excited about. And it's sort of, then I wanted my pictures for the blog to be better. And then people started around me started asking like, Well, can you take my family pictures or, you know, friends that were having low key weddings, that, that all the sudden photography was a bigger thing. As soon as people started to want to pay me, I felt an obligation to like, get good at it. And I'm just like, if somebody wants me to do this, I want to and I really dug into studying photography, as an art form. Like I feel very dedicated to photography. I spend a lot of time and money buying monographs. I love to have books of photographers work. I spent a lot of time studying that I try to go to exhibits as often as I can. Knowing kind of the history of it and who the the founding folks that have built something like that's a lot of my energy and I like to look into it because I think it kind of helps keep you from Instagram trends are, especially since photography is so easily shareable and it's easy. I feel like it's kind of easy to fall into thinking of it as a social media content, creative thing. And that's not how I see it, I want to make an image that does not just exist for social media. And I feel like it gives a lot of legitimacy to it. Because you understand that you're like, it's like someone studying the, you know, their art form. Like if they paint a particular way they study all the greats from that style, or whatever, you know, you're really invested in him. And he's in he said, monetary wise, too. But you know, you're, you're really into it, you're not just like, click, click, click, put on Instagram, you know, hashtag, whatever. It's a real, it's a real passion. And I can, like, nerd out so hard, I like, do like, I love books, I love studying. And so I wouldn't be a student for the rest of my life, if I could figure out a way to afford to do that. So I really do feel like a student of photography at this stage. And it really, I think, does help to create things that feel be, like I said, beyond what is of this moment, one of the things that I really think, studying that other work, when I'm just looking at social media as my inspiration, the things that do well, on a really small screen that you're kind of passing by quickly, aren't the same images that I want to return to again, and again, when public, like when I'm looking at larger in a book, and so it helps kind of realign me to my purpose to be looking at the thing that I'm trying to create, rather than the thing that's easy to consume. Yes, yeah. It's interesting, I saw, it's just reminded me of something I saw the other day, someone who I'm not going to remember what it was. But it was literally about that. The popularity of Instagram, yeah, we can forget what's driving us because we get the likes and the comments or whatever. And that, you know, our dopamine brain goes, Oh, that's exciting. Everyone likes me. But then, as you said, like, this is not going to be an era that lasts forever, you know, this, this will be a little blip on the radar. And already people are getting back to printing. You know, there's a photographer I know, here, Matt Gambia, who gets all her field, things printed on films, like she's got a film camera. Now she's going back to the olden days, olden days, everything I do everything on film. Yeah. And it's wonderful, you know, and same thing that people getting back to records, you know, that physical, we're sort of like rejecting this mass consumption of instant stuff. And we're going back to the important thing. So I think you're right, not just, you know, focusing on what's popular now. But the things that have stood the test of time, and, you know, will stand the test of time, the things that you're creating now, that's what I want to use as kind of my measuring tool. You know, I can't I can't be like, I mean, how many people do you know that are on Instagram right now that are like, so frustrated with that it wasn't what it used to be. And, and so I feel like it doesn't frustrate me deeply, because I don't feel a huge attachment, like pretty active user of it. And I like it, and I but it isn't the end all be all for me. And so I can kind of have a certain like, you know, casualness with it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yep. And that said something else that reminds me, so I'll do this a lot. Things will remind me and I'll go. And then I'll probably cut it out later, because I realized that I'm just rambling. But yeah, somebody somebody posted recently, they were leaving Instagram, because they weren't happy with one that somebody else actually owned their content. You know, we don't own what we put on Instagram, they could disappear at any moment. And to obviously, now with the changes in algorithm, they're controlling what people see. So they will like, come and join my email list, you know, come to my website, getting people back to that, you know, I used to work at a plant nursery, and we used to when people would come past the tool, and you'd say, Oh, would you like to join our email list? You know, the old the old thing of writing down your email, and it seems so pointless and dorky, but like that's what people are getting back to now, you know, this is motivation. I send them Monday night newsletter, it will go. It's funny. We're recording Monday night, my time. It'll go out and a half an hour. It's become my biggest driver of business. It feels like my biggest creative outlet. Like I'm mostly excited about people coming to Instagram so that I can get them to my newsletter, because it was sort of like my first love to it gives me a space to do that. I can share the images that I want without censorship. It feels like a different investment to the people who like choose to read that newsletter that they open it up on Monday night, it feels like a ritual for some people. Or maybe I'm just that I'm like, giving you this thing. And I'm like, Cool, Rachel. But I think too, like, that's your intention behind it, you know, it's not something that you can just scroll on, you know, it's a thing that is a special thing that people have chosen to be a part of, and that's thing you want them to appreciate? This is your this is your special way reaching out, you know? Yeah, and that's really, I think, part li having that does make me feel a little less freaked out by the algorithm. You know what I mean? Where I'm like, Okay, it's gonna be all right, the people, because the people who were most interested in working with me, they've already, they're already over there, they're following, they're keeping in touch with me. And I think we underestimate us. I mean, I know some are artists or less in like, the direct marketing, maybe that so many, like, portrait photographers, we use Instagram, to get business maybe in a way that's different than some of your guests like when you have musicians and authors, it can be kind of a different relationship. So I'd like to go back to this beginning for you with the writing, were you always into writing as a kid growing up? Yeah, that's probably the thing that I, it's probably the career I most often returned to. I mean, I've wanted to be so many things throughout the course of my life. But I think writing frequently was the thing that I returned to is something that I loved. Of all always been a reader. I've always been a writer. But it was interesting to me because as I said, creative nonfiction was my, my main genre. And I feel like it makes the transition into the type of photography that I create feels sort of in that same in that same genre that I want to, you know, there are so many conceptual photographers that I really love, that I kind of like when they're kind of playing with surrealism, or, you know what I mean that they're, they're doing things that are kind of abstract, or they're doing things that feel like deeply creative. And they love it, and I'm inspired by it. But that isn't the thing that I seek to create, I think back on, on one of my creative writing professors, which sort of adorably My oldest is in college right now. And she has this professor who was like, my favorite professor, because she's going to the same university. And it's his last semester teaching anyhow, that's brilliant. And, yeah. And one of the things he had said about creative nonfiction was, you can write in any detail that you need to in your piece, and it doesn't have to be true. Like, you don't have to remember what they were wearing. As long as it could be true. You know, what I mean? Like, what is the thing that Allison might wouldn't be wearing? Or would be eating or? And so I think about that a lot. When I'm taking pictures, it's not that I'm pure documentary. I don't mind moving the situation, or changing it. But I still want it to feel in the realm of, could that be true? It's not like true for a mom to be like, hanging around naked in her kitchen with her children. Where I like, see lots of like, kind of beautiful, and like, I don't want to make that picture. Like I don't you know what I mean? Like, but if you are a lady that, like, hang around in your undies in your, you know, big T shirt, then that is interesting to me. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So anyhow, that's sort of like, I see how that writing background, how the how the details that I was most interested in like that, that that's then what I become interested in, in pictures. I feel like there's a real overlap between the writing I liked and the photographs I like and try to make. Yeah, that is so interesting. So would you describe your style of photography as documentary style? Or what's the best way to describe it? For a person who loves words I hate tried to figure though word is for it. Because I know it's not pure documentary because I feel like I am fine with adjusting the thing. Like, I often think about Sally Mann, who is one of my, you know, favorite photographers that I look up to, there's a picture where she has a bite mark on her arm, and it's called Jessie bites. And her son was Jessie. But she bit herself for that photo was in a biting phase, apparently, but then like she wanted to make the image. But she was like, this could be true, but it's not. So anyhow. So documentary feels like there's sort of a commitment to you don't alter the situation. And I'm not afraid to alter it so that it can in the period of time that we need to tell the truth that we need it to. But it's not lifestyle photography. It's not portrait photography yet. So it's kind of a mix between conceptual and documentary. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, that I mean, it couldn't be. Because if we think of the concept of speed, how much truth can we try to tell as fast as we can? I mean, which is funny that I say as fast as we can, because I, my preferred way to shoot is long form sessions, which are 24 Hour Photo experiences, where I like come into somebody's home, and I stay with them for a full 24 hours. Oh, wow. Yeah. So even when I say you're still trying to tell a whole family of a story, or a whole story of the family, even their 24 hours is so much longer. There's still so much story to tell. Yet, it's still a short period of time in the game. There's that part of me that keeps thinking like, How long could I make these go? Because I wish I had a week sometimes, you know what I mean? Like to make a body of work that feels like, oh, this could be its own book. This could be its own show, like how could this family you know, to show the nuances of it in the different relationships and how they shift in and out. That's sort of my fantasy. Wow, I this is groundbreaking. You're the first person I've spoken to, or first person I've heard of that does this this is amazing. Like to spend that amount of time I love it. No. Yeah. Because you really get to like, you know, I, I sleep in their house, I eat their meals with them. I wake up with them. I go, and because I say it's at least 24 hours sometimes because I'm flying places. We're driving like this weekend, I'll be driving down the coast. So you know, I'll spend Friday night with them shoot all day Saturday and then go home on Sunday. You really like you're seeing what know how the sausage is made? That's an expression that you use in Australia. Oh, yeah. You don't I mean, like you're in there. And I love it. It's like, voyeurism at its best. It's so exciting. I like fascinating. Yeah, it's a it's also interesting, sort of the backstory on it about a year and a half ago. Like so many photographers. I like needed to make a buck, as we often do. And I was offering, like, motherhood mini sessions, and I had a friend who was on the other side of the country who had done it so beautifully and pulled it off. And I was like, Yeah, was it okay, I'm just gonna like copy. And it flopped, like, not do very well. And I had that moment of like, oh, I don't think that this is what people want from me. I don't make portraits quickly. You know, even the way I was normally running sessions, I had a realization like, I think people want longer, not less time. I think people want to really get to show what's going on that we want to be validated in the work that we're doing in the in the thick of it. So I like got my act together. And I started long form sessions, and I booked more long form sessions that were like, nearly 10 times the price of a mini session, I booked more long form sessions that I had many sessions. Yeah, that's the thing that people wants what they want. Yeah. And it was different than what other people were offering. Yeah, yeah. But isn't that interesting, though, that it's like, when you stay true to yourself, like that authentic openness? And I'm not, you know, I'm not being rude to you at all, because I think we all do it. And I certainly know I've done it with this podcast. You see how someone does it and you think, Oh, that looks good. I'll do that. Yeah. And it was probably great that it flopped because it went well. Hang on. So grateful. That's not me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, it was and I think It's just the reminder, especially for like creative entrepreneurs, that we try a thing. And like, the next thing that could be super wildly successful for you can just be around the corner. And the more that we lean into the piece that we're really good at the part that feels the most aligned with the work that we're supposed to be making. But, you know, it's a little bit hard sometimes to like, brush off your bruised ego when you're like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Seems to be doing this so well. And I tried it and no, like, I had a real moment, like that dark night where you're like, I just was like, oh, yeah, he's question everything, don't you? Yeah. I'm so glad you got going. Yeah, you know, because I had, I mean, the big thing was, my oldest daughter was about to go to college, and I needed to make more money than I had been making. So I thought many sessions might provide that. And it didn't. So you, but this has been the end. So creatively fulfilling, it is the work that I want to be making, it's in the speed, one of the things about because I do shoot completely film, I can't, like film needs more light than digital photography. In low light situations, I can't be shooting very easily, like, I can do a flash, but that kind of, yeah, just the nature of it, you know. So it's not like 24 hours of a camera in your face, you know, in ebbs and flows, and that it'll be like, let's do this thing. And then it kind of settles back down. Maybe the babies are taking a nap or whatever. And then like, you kind of have the desire to like make kind of bubbles back up, like you do, like, you know what I mean? It kind of feels like almost three sessions over the course of the day, with some clicking in between. But I don't know the flow of it is so perfect, deeply exciting to me. Yeah, I just love it. This is an awesome thing I've never heard before. And I'm so like, I feel like energized. I don't know, if anybody in Australia does this cube, please get in touch with me. Sounds amazing. So when you're in people's homes, like you say how you know that it sort of ebbs and flows. You spending a lot of time watching these people, you know, that must be a passion for you to I don't want to say analyze people, but you know, you're picking up the nuances. You're saying, you know, and your focus is on, you know, the mothering role. Yeah. Is that part of it interesting to to sort of the dynamics and how people interacting? Absolutely. I mean, and maybe that's like a little bit the writer in me too, that I'm like, like to listen to the stories that I, I don't know, I feel like my friends and my family at this point. They like hearing about sort of the adventures of it. And there's no like, it's not not a priest or doctor or lawyer to tell your business to my husband once I'm done. No confidentiality agreement. But I will say I am not a fly on the wall, sort of. That's the other thing that makes me feel like not a documentary photographer. Sometimes. I'm engaging, we're talking, I'm trying to, through what you're saying to when you're speaking to like, what your motherhood experiences. What your experience because I mean, it is primarily mothers, I have done some sessions. With couples, I had one woman who was a single woman that had me come and do a long form. And it was so wonderful to see how somebody crafts a day. You know, it was, there was like really special moments where she was like, bringing out a 50 year old vacuum cleaner that had been her great grandmother's that was like part of her like Saturday ritual. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, things that you're like, Oh, this is what your day your life is like. But anyhow, so So the conversation is helping lead me to like what I think we should create, as well, that I'm not strictly observing. It's pretty. It's pretty dynamic. It does feel kind of collaborative. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like you're not standing back and letting them go and just click, click, click, it's you're involved, and talking about things. And yeah, I love it. You've just blown my mind. Honestly, that is just magic. And that actually explains now, why your photos are so amazing, because I had a look on your website. As I told you before I speak to my guests. And it also explains why your writing is amazing on your website because you're a writer and that oh make sense. Now You fineries are so I don't know how to describe them. They're just delightful and divine. And the, the, the story that they tell is so significant like I, I mean, back in the day, I used to do wedding photography, because I loved I love the detail of stuff. Like I took a lot of photos of people's, you know, fingers and faces and, and there wasn't a lot of, you know, let's all stand up and take a photo of everybody. I love that detail. And I feel like this, this your photos they tell so much, you know, there's so much there, but it's I can't describe it in words. I'm not I've not a good way of words to zero. But you know that I don't know how to describe it. And you can tell I think the passion that you have for what you do, like, seriously comes out because you couldn't just go click click, click and get these photos. You know, there's a, it makes sense. Now it all makes sense. There's one of my favorite podcast episodes like of all time, Malcolm Gladwell has a podcast because I just like met Malcolm Gladwell is writing so much revisionist history, and there's one I think it's called King of tears. But it talks about how country music One of the reasons that like country music breaks your heart is because it's so specific. And maybe we've kind of like used to make fun of it. Like, now dad that like sort of trope. Yeah. But, but those like real specific details, like through that, I think it speaks more to like the universal than anything else. And so that is often like what I'm looking for. It's funny, I've had like, portfolio reviews and critiques. And not everybody loves it the way I do that. They're like, You should have moved that out of the frame or whatever. But for me, it's those like messy bits, that feel. I don't that they give it the depth and the nuance that I mean, and I still want it to be pretty. That's, that's the thing. Sometimes I see strict documentary photography. And it's I don't know, in so in attempt to tell the story truthfully, I don't, I don't know that they're not always beauty isn't as much of an aim. And maybe I'm like a little superficial. I do want it to have that. And I also do think people, the clients who are hiring me, they want to see themselves in an honest way, but like, their best. I mean, like you still want to feel like beautiful and attractive in in that even if it is complicated. And you know, yes, I think yeah, I think yeah, exactly. You can show the realness, but then within that, adjust it to, I mean, the person's got to look at it and like it to at the end of the day, don't they? They don't want to look go oh, this is so cringy I don't like looking at this photo of myself. You know, it's got to have that balance, I think yeah. When you first started taking photos, did you have any influence? Or did you just go intuitively into this is the style of photo that you're taking? Now, one of the things I do not think I'm a very natural photographer, I've worked really hard at it. There are other things that I feel like have come to me. It's one of the reasons that I kind of like mentoring is because I'm like, Oh, I think I can tell you how to do this. Even if you're not like naturally good at it because I like I have put my time in I have studied, it was something that I wanted to be good at. So, so I don't know that I'm there. So there was influence, and early on. Like I also believe a lot and like finding mentors and teachers who can help you along the way. Early on when I was like getting hired, all the sudden to take pictures and I was like, well, one thing I realized was this was before I was doing long form sessions when I was taking a picture of my children, which is what was showing up in my blog. I was clicking when the light was blue Before when the moment had come, when it had sort of naturally appeared? Well, now all of a sudden, I had one hour in somebody's house. And I didn't know how to like, make that moment happen. You know what I mean? So your natural tendency, then is to, like, start posing them into groups, because you're like, I don't know what to do when I'm in there looking at you kind of like, what do we do now? Yeah, yeah. And so that's when I found, I, like, did the research and found somebody who I thought was making family photography that felt deep and rich, and not like the pictures I was seeing everywhere. And I went to one of her workshops. And in the years, since we've just developed a relationship that turned friendship, and that it was somebody that has really helped guide and I recognize the importance of that, that, you know, having somebody to look at your work and be able to give it an honest critique. And I've tried other mentors and programs I've seen sometimes you're like, Oh, that was not my person, like they're telling me about my work doesn't actually resonate when you're saying that. I felt like confrontational like, oh, you can't tell me to remove that picture. So anyhow, you find that person, that vision aligns with yours, and they help you to amplify your voice. And I think that that is a really, that was a really powerful part of my growth in learning. Yeah. And so that's what drives you to help others then because it's like, you can pass on like he said, if you're not a natural habit, I've got some tips. Yeah, you can do it. Because that was me, you know. I mean, it's funny, I was saying to my husband, I was like, I actually think I might be more of a natural teacher than a photographer, because I taught in public schools in the US for eight years. And then for two years, I did an online school class that was doing almost daily zoom calls for two years during the pandemic, like I have a lot of teaching experience. Yeah. So sometimes when I'll do mentoring sessions, and people will say, like, that was so wonderful. I've done lots of these. This felt like the best use of my money that I've ever done. Sometimes I'm like, did not just say the things that like any. Like, to me, that's where I think everything is some sort of like obvious, but you realize that maybe that's the piece that comes more naturally. Yeah, and I guess hearing things like you could hear the same thing. 20 times 20 different people, but it's not until maybe you connect with that person, you resonate with that person, and then you know, you will allow yourself to hear it. You know what I mean? Or to you to hear it? Yeah. Yeah. Because also like, if your friend who you feel like doesn't know anything about pictures is like, that's your best picture. You might be Yeah, who says like, whatever. You're an accountant, like Oh, I love that. Now, I want to mention some really amazing things about what drives you to take these pictures, right? I love going to take some direct quotes off your website, okay, which I love. It says self love and self celebration are not reserved only for the thin, white, young, cisgendered able bodied female. When I read that, I was just like, Go girl, like, I feel like there's so many of us, because we've, you know, we might have grown up with magazines with the airbrush people on the covers, and then the social media shoving thin people down our throats, it's like, you just feel so unworthy of being in front of a camera, or wanting to be in front of a camera. You know, it's just like, you read that and you go, yeah, if I feel heard, I feel seen. Well, like one of the things that I think has made me excited about photography. Like before I wanted to be a photographer, one of the things you know, I said there were lots of jobs and ideas that I would imagine that I felt like the straw like, I don't know that the work was supposed to be sort of about something and about something more that they're supposed to be an aspect of, like, activism or charity, or like that was so much. And sometimes I felt like I think maybe I wouldn't allow myself to consider being an artist because I was like, Oh, well, that seems like In almost selfish pursuit, I'm not saying that I agree with these ideas now, but you know, this was like my. But one of the things that I realized like as an image creator, as a person who makes images, that you wield a lot of power in, like what you show and where you show beauty and how you expand the definition of beauty, and how you allow other people to feel seen, and heard and accepted, when I was a kid, and I've always had a big body, like I never, there was never easy to buy clothing, I could never share clothing with my friends, I always felt like the fattest kid in the class. Because I was the fattest kid in the class, like, just in truth, that was just fact. I thought, when I didn't see people like me, in TV, or movies, or magazines or catalogs, I didn't think that the problem was them and representation, I thought that the problem was me. And if I could just make myself thinner and different, then I deserved to be represented. And, like, That's bullshit. And so now that I have like, a little bit of a platform, a little bit of a way to make images, a little bit of wit, a way to share those, I'm like, and I had to start, it's one of the reasons I'm, like, pretty passionate about self portraiture, because I wanted people of different sizes, and abilities and bodies to hire me. And I felt like well, I have to start by showing mine. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that especially photographers, if you want to be telling people, like, I want you to feel comfortable in your body, you kind of have to like, walk the walk and prove it a little like they can see through your BS. And so if you haven't really done the work, to love and accept yourself. The best thing I can do is model that. And then when I show up, I kind of show up and I give people permission to be like, Oh, yes, I get to do this too. Yeah, it probably makes your clients feel more comfortable to be themselves because they know they're with someone who has done the same thing. You can just relax and it almost feels like a camaraderie that okay, you know, I've done this you can do this, you know, and you feel empowered. I guess that's been that's definitely what I want. One of one of the stories I tell sometimes one of the bad mentoring experience, I went and paid for a mentorship with a wedding photographer when that weddings were still a bigger part of my, my work. And I really loved her editing and her low light. The way she did things This was before I was shooting film, either. But when I showed up to meet with her, the first thing she said to me was that I should not have plus size bodies on my portfolio or Instagram. Oh, it was like particularly shocking, I thought to tell straight to a plus sized person that I was like, oh, did you like think Did you like walk out right then? No, because I felt like $800 and I and I was like, Do you know what I mean? It was one of those times where you're like, what, like we hadn't even started we had like gone to get a cup of coffee. We hadn't even started the mentorship yet. And I was like, what, but you know, also, how hard is it to like, learn once you feel really shut down? Oh, yeah, actually, it was one of those things that was really invigorating for me. Yes. So like a screw that. Yeah. Like that is absolutely. I will use my like I said, my limited influence my limited platform to be like, That is not the story. I would love if that person could actually see what you're doing now that she would just get a shock of how amazing it is and how wonderful it isn't appreciated. I know though, it's funny, I had seen that at some point during the pandemic, that this person had been hired by a brand to shoot a plus size model. And that made me so mad that I was like I I think this woman is like entirely fat phobic. And now she's like, because she's being paid for the specific thing like yeah, it made my blood boil because I was oh, that poor body in front of her lens that isn't actually loved. That isn't like, there she is not seeing the beauty in that person. Like I don't, I don't believe it. But Isn't that an amazing gift from the universe though to say the thing that you're most afraid of? For whatever reason there's got to be something that's gone on in that woman's life. Here it is. And you can have some money for doing it and she would have been so conflicted she would have been doing need money or do I need to not do it? No. It is like I want to Oh my god I have been a fly on the wall that circumstance but you want to die. I would love to know now. out if that, if that changed her at all, if she in some way, developed an appreciation for a body, that's not the typical norm, which actually, I would argue that we probably are more normal than what, like, you know how, yeah, the site the size of clothes, the the, you know, the average size of clothes, the most popular size of clothes to get sold in Australia is a 14, which, I mean, fourteens aren't super small. But you know, it's, it's the other end of you know, the 810 12, you know, so, you know, our bodies are like, the normal one. And one of the things I also realized, and I, that I always had this idea that if I could achieve the certain thing, then I would feel beautiful. And I realized, I met all of these beautiful, stunning humans, and they didn't necessarily feel that they were beautiful. And I realized that there was actually like, no direct correlation between how someone looked, and how they felt about their own self and their own body. And I was sort of like, well, if there's no correlation, I might as well just decide I love myself. Because, like, it seems like, you know, if people can do it the other way, then I'm just gonna, and also, I've always just wanted to be like, a little weirder than I am. I'm actually like, more. And I was like, you know, what I think my ticket will be is I'm just gonna be the woman who loves herself. And but how bad is that? But that is groundbreaking, you know, is that new bad or was that that's what societies can do. But like photography, it was something that I had to work on. I had always loved me as a person. But I didn't love the body that I was in. Like, I thought that my body was sort of unimportant. In the grand scheme of things. I was like, Oh, it's okay. I love my spirit of my soul. I love my personality, I love my intellect, it my body is just like the bag that carries that around. And one thing that had recently sort of occurred to me, no one thinks it's because it almost seems shallow to care about bodies. Nobody makes it shallow to think that a mountain is beautiful, or a flower or a sunset, like there are all sorts of other physical forms that we get excited about, like, why can't I be excited about my physical form? Or yours? Like? Yeah, yeah, like, when you're saying that I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, I don't know what year I'm not a, I'm not a an art person. I don't understand a lot about things in art. But, you know, in some time in art, they were painting bigger bodies, you know, they will luxurious, and, you know, I can just have this image in my mind, you know, like, luxuriating on a reclined something, you know, and they were celebrating, you know, even the, what's the one that's coming out of the luxurious? Yeah, like, she's not a size too, you know, like, yeah, you know, when did we get to the, is it all about this selling, like advertising? And, you know, making money and capitalism is that, that switch that's going off some in some point in the world. I mean, I'm even thinking about in Mad Men, because that's one of my favorite TV shows. Love that show so much. You know, Joan, bigger bust round was like, you know, she had a really gorgeous figure, hourglass figure. She was, you know, craved by the men, you know, and you had all these little stick figure like Peggy and whoever running around, who people couldn't give a toss about. But then at what point did it actually go? No, we need the thinnest person possible. And that's all we want. It's the thing that feels important to me is to be like, That thin woman is beautiful, that round woman is beautiful. That older woman is beautiful, that black woman is beautiful that like that the person with the moles the person with the hair, the person with the freckles, person with the stretch marks, like I just want, I want more beauty in my life. So I just want to keep expanding the definition bigger and bigger, so that it also holds me but that it holds so many people because then I get to experience more beauty. And like I am a glutton for beauty. I am totally a hedonist. I love pleasure. I love looking at things that I'm like, Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I just want to be like, how come there has always felt like there has been some control over women's bodies, no matter which way, maybe it's about thinness. Or maybe it was about that? Oh, you shouldn't be too strong. You should look like this or youth or, like, what is fertility look like? Whatever those things are. I just want to like, say be us to all of it to be like, there is so many ways for a thing to be beautiful. And I'm, I'm not interested in just seeing one flower. Like, why would I just be interested in seeing one body type? Yeah, I love that. Like, yeah, and it reminds me too, because I actually had this conversation with someone on the podcast about why we'd want to Beauty but beauty is literally in the eye of the beholder because I love dead flowers. You know, dead flowers aren't meant to be beautiful, they're dead. But the color the roses when they die, their color comes out in a different way. And they, I don't throw them away. I just have them all around me because I just love them. You know this? Yeah, who decides what's beautiful, you know, one of my like, one of my favorite concepts. And there was a book I returned to a lot. wabi sabi for artists, designers, philosophers and poets, I think. Anyhow, it is a, you know, it's a little it's a small little like treaties on the idea of wabi sabi. And the idea of like, the beautiful and like, the imperfect, the in let's think, the imperfect, the impermanent. And one other thing that I can't think of at this moment, but you know, I'm with you, when we start to see beauty as like the full cycle of life, even in the death that there's beautiful when we start to see that like that, that whole that that comes in every part of the cycle, like, we've just expanded how much beauty we get to experience and like, we don't have to hold on so tight to the beauty that we think exist in this moment. You know what the next one is good. And when that flower rots, it becomes more flowers. And that's also beautiful, like, it will feed the ground. Yeah, cycle of life. I love that. Love it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. That brings me to talking about there's a sorry, I'm just going to bring it up on your website. So I can say the right thing. Finding myself in portrait, a self love guide disguised as a self portrait primer. So this, I guess, is your way of saying encouraging people to unite except themselves find their beauty. And, you know, this is the medium through which you will work through things, I guess. One of the things like in that digital guide, I don't like I see self portraiture as being one of the ways that we can access like a self love self care routine, I don't think I think to just start taking pictures of yourself without like having some of the intention behind it with some of the practice it can be. You know, it doesn't have the same meaning in the same depth. And meanwhile, like, you can definitely have like a self love practice and self acceptance practice that doesn't involve self portraiture, but I just liked the way that they come together. One of the reasons that I started with self portraiture was thinking, I want to show different bodies, I guess I have to start with mine. And it was sort of a hard reckoning at first, at first you see pictures of your body, and you're like, What the heck, I I was so used to the image that I saw on a mirror that I could adjust. Yeah, that I could see myself though, you know, how we all get your faces or mirror poses and like, Yeah, but then I was making self portraits. And I was seeing things that I had hidden from my own view, I did not know myself, completely and fully. And at first, it was shocking. But like, now I know me so well. Like, it doesn't surprise me when I see those things. Like, she is familiar to me. I know where her bumps are, and her cracks and her lines and her dimples. And, you know, I and I have a loving acceptance of her. And that has been a real powerful tool for me to be like I had, you know, can you think of all the times it's like your friend shows you a picture of yourself? And you're like, Oh, God. Yeah, at this point, I can be like, yeah, sometimes make that expression under those circumstances. And it's okay, because I also can do this thing, like, everyone I love. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, even the people I love very much. I don't always think that they're like, the hottest person in the world. Yeah. Doesn't mean that I don't see like their flaws are. But it does mean that like as a whole I love and accept them and I you know, see the beauty in them. I don't think that loving yourself has to mean that you don't see some of that and recognize that. But to say like, oh, I'm still worthy of my love. stretchmarks and all. Exactly. Yeah. And this concept of you mentioned earlier briefly, that we have to wait until a certain time before we're happy, you know We have to lose the kilos. Or we have to, I can't even think of another example. That's the only thing I've ever had in my head, you know, until this happens until I get to this way or till I can fit in that dress, I won't be happy, you know, you just put your life on hold. And there's so many industries that just tap into that, you know that in the fitness industry. I used to work in the fitness industry for many years. Toxic as hell, when you're in it, you don't really see it. But you get out of it. And you think, oh my lord, you know, it should be outlawed. Yeah. I can imagine that. That was like really painful. You don't even realize that it's going on, but you're like, but again, because I think we often just think it's about ourselves, and like, we're the problem. What they're doing isn't the problem. Exactly. Yes. Oh, no, I mean, powerful way of looking at it. Yeah. But I think when I think about like, it can't be the other thing. And unlike you, it's always easy for me to think about it in terms of weight, because that had always sort of been my thing, but I realized other people, they think that maybe the Botox, or they think that if their hair is different, or if they're, you know, they've got what there's just a million ways to feel uncomfortable in your body and we have been sold for so I mean, one thing that I have to say is, I do think that that is changing to some extent, like and one of the things that I encourage in that guide when I talk about this sometimes, in other places. Consider what media you're consuming. If everything on your Instagram feed is thin, white, heterosexual women of a certain age, you need to diversify that. If all of the TV and all of the movies everywhere you're buying clothing from kind of makes you feel bad because you don't see your body represented in it. There are ways to not do that anymore. Like there are I love when I'm watching television shows, they tend to be like a little more on the RT side. But when you're seeing skin that looks like real skin, there's a TV show. I don't know if it made it to Australia, Betty, it's like a skater girl. Not sure. Borders in. In New York. The first season was like New York in the summer. And it was just like, so beautiful. I mean, the cinematography of it was beautiful. It was interesting to me at one point, there's a character that just had lots of acne on his face. There was no mention of it. It wasn't a part of the storyline. He wasn't being made fun of for it. It was just like, yeah, here's some real skin. And it just was treated as normal. And it was so fascinating to me how that made me feel that I was like, That is exciting. Yeah, see that? Yeah. Yeah. It was shocking. The first time I saw catalog where I felt like boobs, stretch marks, and it was like on a plus size model, they'd always had plus size models. But I was like, Oh, my literal thought was, oh, somebody messed up, they forgot the airbrush. They're gonna get in trouble, like, somehow that had like, passed by editors. Because it was so novel to me at the time that I was supposed to say that. Yeah, I actually feel like, it's one of these moments that it's happening now is that advertisers have realized that we want to see normal bodies. And it's, I mean, certainly the the things that I see anyway, it's, it's so noticeable now that it's just becoming normal. You know, like, when I first saw it, I remember saying, Ah, it was some, it was, like, some rolls over the top of a pair and leaves in it. And it was just like, Oh, I wonder if they meant to do like, same thing did was Did that go through somehow. But now it's everywhere. It's like, it's becoming so normal, that it's not a big deal. And I think that's really important that when it stops, like, the acne, it stops being shocking. It's, it stops being out of the ordinary, then that's really good. You know, that's where things have really changed, you know? Yeah. And, and I feel excited for younger generation. I'm, it's interesting, because I know that people give social media a lot of hard time and the effect that it's having on our teens, in part because my oldest my 17 year old daughter, like, I don't know, the part of Tiktok and Instagram that she seems to be interested in is like that, you know, queer people of color content creators. So like she's isn't I mean, there is a way to has given marginalized voices. A platform. Yeah. And I think that that can be exciting and that like we need to remember that that It is also happening. Yeah, in a way that I think is really powerful. Yeah, that CD, isn't it? I think. Yeah. And certainly a lot of conversations I've had on this on this podcast is like, you know, in Instagram, and I'm not on Facebook a lot now, but and I'm not on Tik Tok, because I feel like, it's just another thing for me to see, am I not doing anything? Yeah, I thought but you know, Instagram, it's got its place, you know, my, you know, people I speak to mostly have a business. So, you know, you've, you feel like, you've got to be on there to get yourself out. And then we're so quick to bag at art shows this and shows that, but you're right, if you shift your focus, and you say, right, I'm not seeing what I want to say, seek out the things you want to see. Because they are there. Like you said, the these marginalized voices, they are there, and they're trying really hard to be heard. And that's interesting you say about your daughter, I think a lot of the time, we don't give our kids enough credit for actually how switched on they are about the world. You know, I think we're coming at it from our world of, you know, we're all on social media now. But we didn't grow up with it. So we we've been through this year of fear about it. And you know, they're predators and whatever. So we can come at it from that, which obviously is important. I'm not diminishing that at all. But we can come at it from that fear perspective. But like my example of my son, who's 14, and he got on to Arkin, he got on to Facebook once, as I said, I You can't be out to your 13 or whatever. And he didn't tell me that he'd been on it. And so I had this conversation, are you not going to tell me if you're doing this stuff? And I don't mind you doing it? But tell me he goes, Oh, yeah, I was on it for about 10 minutes. And I thought this is a load sheet. So I uninstalled it, you know, and, and he has this very, I don't say jaded view, but he's very questioning about why people do what they do. On these platforms. You know, he sees the girls at school, particular groups who record the Tick Tock dancers. So he's like, Ah, I'm not gone there. Because all they do is those stupid dance, you know, like, kids aren't stupid, you know, and they're quite painful at times, you know, to make their decisions and say, This is what I want to consume, probably more so than what way? You know. I've heard a lot of things and it's like Millennials spend more time on their phones, the Gen Zers do and I feel like, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of, maybe we're given them a hard time. In places, I'm not saying that there aren't mental health consequences. Some, but I think some of the conversation shouldn't be whether this is good or bad, but like, how are you going to use it? What are you going to do with it? Yes. What? And like, have those conversations rather than just acting like, the only conversation is, what? What platforms are you on? And how much are you on there? Yeah, like if for what purpose? What are you trying to get out of it? Who are you seeing? Like, you know, he knows me. And you know, there's also how you get to have all sorts of meaningful conversations, especially with your tweens and teens getting older. Yeah, so some interest in those places, opens up a lot of conversation. Now on that we should talk about your children. Now, we let's mention that you do have children. Tell us how many do you have? Five? Yeah, they run the age gamut. There's Awesome. Yeah, so I have a 17 year old, 15 year old, a nine year old, a seven year old and a three year old. Oh, beautiful. I mean, one of the things I live in the same small town that I grew up, and within like, I'm one of six kids and five of us still live within a two mile radius. Yeah, my mom is here. My dad, my grandma, my aunt, my cousin's like, you know, there's six, soon to be seven nieces and nephews who you know. So one thing about having a big family is just that I have such a support network that I don't think everybody has. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Yeah. And yeah, having five it would take a lot of time to do things. We'd need that some food. But then also, my kids are so spread out in age, it really helps. My oldest is home from college this weekend. But like, you know, if we're about to go somewhere, she's helping get the three year old dress or their energy. Do you know what I mean? There's because I do so much traveling for work these days where I'm going away to shoot these long form sessions. Oftentimes, you know, my 15 year old is baby is watching his younger siblings, we live really close to the Chesapeake Bay. So he'll like take them to the beach or take them to playgrounds and kind of, you know, help do things while my husband's working. Anyhow. So it's really a it's deeply a family affair. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, really team players about it. That's awesome. That's something I wanted to ask you actually about, you know, having your children see what you do for them to see you as I put this in air quotes more than just mum because we're never just mum. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I am not like a martyr by nature. Like, I love mothering. I love my kids. There's, but like, I, I didn't want that to be my whole identity. Like, there's other things that mattered to me. And I'm okay with them realizing like, we do things with each other and for each other, and we go hard as a team. And also, we get to have our own lives and our own passions. And I want you to see that, like, I'm going to pursue those. Especially because my oldest is like you she wants to be a songwriter. That's right, because that's your Yeah, medium. Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, I have a day job, but my my love my first my first one is music. Yes. Yeah. I feel like I've shown her like, this is how like, you are gritty and you work and you like, keep going. And, you know, I like we talk about those things and how you market and how you network and how like, because if you want a career in arts, either you're gonna have to have a day job and it's like more a hobby, but if you want a career in IT, like you're gonna have to hustle. That's a lot of work. And it's a hard slog. Yeah, there's much easier ways to make $1 Yeah, it's it's the constant pool, isn't it? It's like the creativeness is always there. And it's like, like, I'll be on my day jobs with children. I work in the kindergartens here make Gambia and, you know, you're thinking of stuff, you're always got that that brain on it, like, Oh, that's a good chain quickly, running to the toilet and record it in my phone. You know, like, it doesn't turn off, you know? Yeah, yeah, you'd be this say really love that visual. Details I live for God. So with your traveling, you said you'd go away a lot to do these long form sessions. How do you sit with the concept of mum guilt? What does that does that even exist in your world? I feel I feel more guilty that I'm gonna say I don't think it does. Because I feel I'm like, Mom. Okay, so one thing to know about me, I got pregnant with my first I was only 19 years old. When I found out I was pregnant. I was not with my husband and I were not together at that point. It was like, totally an accident, and it was not planned. And so I sort of was like, Okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna, like, try my best. But there was a part of me that maybe because I wasn't like, a thing that I had planned and gone into real intentionally at the beginning, that I was like, we're, we're in this together. I'm gonna give it the old college try. Don't know that. In some ways, I think it's what has been my saving grace, though. That has been like, I'm pretty good at presence and trying to decide like, if this is what's in front of me, I want to make the most of it and have but to some extent, I feel that way about my kids to like, this is the mom you were dealt. And she loves you fiercely. There are things she is great at and there are things that she is not. And one of the things that is important to me is I try to find a moment, moments of deep presence with my kids that I'm paying attention that I'm listening that I'm there with them. And I do not hold myself to a standard that that has to be all day every day. I think that some I think that sometimes moms act like if I'm not giving them everything which none of us are even capable of, then they're then they're feeling guilty every time they pick up the phone where I would much rather kind of have like a clear delineation of like You got your time, and now I'm having my time. And that's okay. Yes. Yes. I don't have to be your everything. And you're not gonna be my everything. Here here. Yes. Round of applause. Yeah, honestly, I feel like that that's something that I am really strong on his like, I'm not gonna leave behind the Allison that I was before I happen to have children, it hasn't made me a completely different person, obviously, I've changed, of course, we all change, we. And even if we don't have children through periods of our lives, we change. But just because I have these little people here does not mean that I stop. And everything I've ever done is just watch from the page, because I am now a mother. And I want my children in a respectful and kind way to understand that I am still May. And when they rush in here and say I need this, I need this, I need this. And I've just spent, you know, two hours playing out the back or whatever. I actually right now, I'm right in the middle of something that I've really liked to finish. Come back to me in 10 minutes, you know, and there is nothing wrong with saying that, you know, don't feel like want to teach your kids that they get to have like some boundaries. And like, everybody doesn't stop the the world. One of the books that was like super influential when I was pregnant with my first. Yeah, I have not watched a lot of Oprah since but at the time, I was like watching a lot of Oprah I was a little depressed or lots of the pregnancy. But I remember, there was a book called Confessions of a slacker mom, I wish I remember who the writer was. But I like loved that book. It did give me a certain permission because it was talking kind of about the benefit of being a slacker mom, that doesn't jump at your kids every whim. Because like, What good are we doing for them? This little shits? They're gonna think things about them like that is not? Yes. So you're actually doing them a disservice by sending them out into the world thinking that, you know, everything revolves around. Yeah. Well, so like, yeah, wait, turn, you will figure it out. And, and but then they're, I mean, I like family dinner is really important to me. That's like something that I love. I don't mind the emotional labor of the fact that I'm like, the one who buys most of the groceries in the house, that I'm the one who prepares most of the food that like dinner is sort of my domain. And it's a thing that I give to my family because it's important. And that's a time where like, we do come together and we and then I don't mind that I like leave the dishes for them and then come up here and this record this podcast with you like, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, now it's my time. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's so important for, you know, your children to see that because they're going to take that into their life. You know, I feel like, you know, my parents was not, it wasn't like this, you know, I felt like, if we wanted something, you know, they did it for us. There wasn't? I don't know, it's like, it's a different a different time, I think of setting boundaries and saying, hang on a sec, you know, particularly women, you know, yeah, this is not okay for us, you know, I'm putting my hand up. As I say this, it's like, no, actually, this is not okay, now is the time that this is going to change. And we pass that on to the next generation. Hopefully, yeah. Because how many of us have mothers that we love so deeply, but we're thinking I wish you had kept more for yourself? I wish that you you know what I mean? Like, you were doing it all for us. But like, I want you to have, you know, the people we love, we want them to have held on to that. So really, we're doing our kids a great service to hold on to a piece as when they're adults. And they're not going to feel like we depend on them in the same way. And I don't know, I think that's says a woman who sees her mother every day and I absolutely depend on so. I've got my family here. You know, my mom and dad, okay, I was the same thing. I was born in this town, I have no reason to leave, leave this town. My sister literally lives around the corner. You know, she's just over there. But you know, that, that family thing, I'd need that support. I'd be I'd be stuck through that. I couldn't do half the things I do if I didn't have mom, you know, and I want them to know that like, Hey, you can stay and you can do this. Like, I'm going to be okay either way. Like, my happiness does not rely on your constant presence necessarily. Like, I mean, and I've gotten especially because my first isn't in at home in the same way. When I realized like, oh, no, there's still like a really meaningful, deep connection that we can have even when we're not seeing each other daily. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a visitor I'm speaking okay family. Come say hello. Just take me is this bagpiper? This is Rachel. No. This is not the bagpiper. This was a little i This is little Lisa's degree. How old are you, Digby? How old are you? sound a bit louder. Seven. I heard I've got a seven year old to me. How are you going? Do you need something in particular? Or are you coming in to say hi? All right. Yeah. It's a Yeah. So yeah, I'll be out soon. Okay. Come on. Face. That way. All right, there we go. See how we go for the night? Yeah. That's how we make it work. To being a mom. You read this book has been like one of my favorite books this week? Or this year? Baby on the fire escape? Oh, no, I don't know that one. Okay, so I'm writing the art of being a mum. So this is it's a book that looks at different mother artists, mostly that were born in about like the 1900s. Because they wanted to look at like the whole course of their career. Yeah, but one of the things that they see the power of interruptions, like all mothers, it's the thing that like both our daily work, and also the trajectory of our careers get interrupted by childbirth by all of these things, but also like the daily will be trying to, like record a podcast. And anyhow, it's a great read. And it's like, really inspiring. I'm frightened that one day and I'm gonna check it out. I love that. Because I mean, it's it's inescapable, isn't it? Like, it's just you can't split yourself into who you are. You just you always. Yeah, I mean, the Myth of Multitasking, you can only single task back and forth. And yeah. And something interrupted. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to mention that I thought was really relevant of the way that you photograph is that you're talking about being present helps you with your lack of mum guilt, which is awesome. Yeah, we can all take something from that. Like, you can only do what you do in that moment. And there's actually no point, thinking it later, because you can't change the past or that sort of philosophy, but the presence in the imperfections, you know, life's messy, and that's what it is, you know, you know, I think the way that you photograph, it shows real life. And I, we've we've sort of talked about this in other ways, but I don't know, there's just so much to be said, for that acceptance in the moment. This is who I am, this is what's happening. And that can really give you peace, I think that you just go I did what I did. I've done what I've done. End of story. Yeah, that like it. And I know that that can be easier said than done. And the kind of thing that takes some practice. And I think, you know, that, that there are things that we can do to, to work on the release. And to, you know, one of the things I talk about, sort of frequently, like in my newsletter, and things like that is what is coming back into my senses as often as possible. When I'm feeling like I've, I'm moving out to be like, okay, my feet feel like this on the ground. And my clothing feels like this. And this is what I'm smelling. This is what I'm seeing. One of the practices and presence that I also like, tried to do, especially when things are starting to feel really chaotic, is I it's kinda like a gratitude journal, but I call it poetic sparks, where I'm just trying to like notice, to spend my day like noticing the little bits of beauty no matter what else is happening, and then that I write them down because it then helps, like, when I know that I'm gonna write it down, I hold on to them differently. And then I also get to experience them a second time in the writing. And then maybe I even get to experience them a third or fourth time if I revisit that writing. Yeah, and if you remember it in a different way, that it becomes less fleeting, but it does help me kind of just ground back into it and also to realize like, it would be things that are very sterile aren't where I find the most beauty. Like, you know what I mean? The things that are feel me The most perfect Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And then acceptance to be like, actually like, when I'm in really like beautiful, perfectly styled super clean, super minimal homes. I find it less exciting than like, seeing the things that are left by the front door and like what story does that tell? And what does the like? What did the dirty dishes on the counter? Like? What did they hint that? I don't know. And all of those things and let me a bigger slob in my own home. Like it's a win whimsically. The shovelled a whole aesthetic like God, I love that. That's the new. That's hashtag. Yeah. But the other thing, sir, I keep referring to things you've written, but they're just they're powerful things, the joy in the mundane. And that is something that reminded me immediately there was a guest I had on last season. What was it early this year, I can't remember. Monica Crowley is an Irish artist. She's a printmaker, and a painter. And she is really similar in the way that she looks at it. It's like, you're gonna be at bed at the sink, washing dishes a lot, as a mother, and to actually find the joy in that. And she, she created this entire artwork, of all the experiences that she had standing at the sink and doing the dishes, I feel like we can get really caught up in celebrating the big things that happen. But in the meantime, we're actually just living our lives, and we're missing the life that's happening in front of us, because we're waiting for some big event or whatever, you know, it's existing and happening right in front of us. I feel like we diminish that. Yeah, it's like, it's we're just waiting for vacation. And especially if you were in the US, we don't even get the vacations that you Australians get, like you get a lot less of it. It's like if that is every week is just been waiting, if we're just waiting on the weekend. That's a whole lot of life to not be appreciating. And like. So I want to be able to say like, what can I do in the moment of folding laundry, which is like definitely my least favorite chore. If you can see the pile of clean laundry that is to the right of me right now. It's like, it's like been worked on today and it's knee high. Like it is significant. In that moment, what can I What pleasure can I can I get from it? And if I can't get pleasure from it, is there a way that I can add something to it? Is there like music, I can listen to our podcast? Or if I asked my husband to come in and help me and then we're talking while we're doing it, like what can happen so that this doesn't feel miserable? And like just a chore that I have to do. I'm like always try. I'm always trying to hack my joy to be like this be more fun. Because I wanted to. Yes, and we are in control of that. And I think that harks back to what you said earlier that you don't have a martyr mentality at all. It's not like Well, here I am suffering again during this folding of watching you know, it's like right how can I turn this around? And that's a really powerful thing to first recognize and then actually go and do you know you're in control of how you want to feel just powerful. Yeah, I love them. Love it I feel like we could talk for hours about this. This is so far. Oh, now I have to tell you about when you were talking earlier about artists sorry, particularly photography. When you want to portray something. You know, you've got to be that authentic yourself, you know, acceptance of your body and showing yourself. There's a photographer here in Mount Gambier. Her name's Louise Agnew. And I think you would love her stuff that feels familiar. She had she was a guest on my podcast a little while ago, but she shows herself in raw vulnerable and she's incredibly inspirational looking at her work right now. Yeah, yes. And I think that, especially in a town, like, you know, small town mentality, everyone's judging everyone else. What's that person doing? Blah, blah, blah. But you know, she's got this platform and she's, you know, projecting this stuff and it's influencing a lot of people and making a lot of people feel really comfortable in their own skin. So yeah, I was gonna say if you don't know her she's a really good one to seek out she's, yeah, talk about walking the talk or however you say it. She's she's doing this stuff. Yeah, no, i i Absolutely. It's funny though. We're talking about like, the small town Enos of it sometimes. Yeah, it's funny. Like, sometimes I'll post maybe a less, like, personal like, full nude self portraits out there. But sometimes there is like a little bit of burying some skin. Like, have posted it. And then you are at the grocery store. People that you know, like it's one thing to show the internet. It's so much more embarrassing when it was like your old Sunday School teacher or like, your neighbor feels like a little weird right now. Like being authentic. That's like, um, yeah. Okay, now I have to show my face. I get particularly embarrassed to act like the internet exists that I want to be like, can we just pretend it doesn't right now? Like, you know what's going on? Can we? Yeah. Let's just keep the conversation on like the cantaloupes look good today, right. Let's not let's not, let's not talk about my really, really? Yeah. Oh, man. I love that. So can you share with us? I mean, obviously, I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people to find you. But where's the best place for people to get in touch with you? I mean, my favorite thing is, if you would, if you're interested in weekly shares, my newsletter is my favorite. And you can find that either on my Instagram, that it's in the link profile, or on my website. It'll direct you there. And I'm Rachel dot Larson dot Weaver on Instagram or just Rachel Larson. weaver.com is mindful. So yeah, my newsletter is my favorite thing. Yeah. mentioned, but I like Instagram a lot. So yeah, I like it while the getting's good, who knows how long we have it for now? I'm enjoying the present. Yes. Oh, the newsletter. I mean, Instagram seems to go away anytime. Yes, and I think that's the thing too that acceptance of of the future to like we're not in control of some things and that can either scare the crap out of you or give you a tremendous amount of peace that it's like this acceptance of what will be will be and you know, and I try to hedge my bets a little like email list as that or but like Don't be can't count on any one thing as being our as being our Savior. It's not going to be it I'm can't control if Instagram becomes all stupid reals there's nothing I can do about like I'm I'm just not there's like important things that I need to be fighting. Yeah, algorithm is not one of them. It's not gonna be Yeah. Can't fight the machine. Yeah, hard pass. Is there anything you want to share that's coming up, or you want to give some things a plug? Um, well, at the end of October, I will be announcing the next round of mentoring sessions, which is like more useful for folks in America than Australians. Because they're like, an in person, or because there's an in person component to it. But um, when this airs, I'll be in the middle of the retreat, where people are coming to my hometown and staying in my childhood home and will shoot portfolio building sessions that are like, catered exactly to the portfolios they want to be making that I've arranged all the shoots around their specific goals, but I'm going to be announcing dates for them. next two sessions. So if you're interested in, in doing that kind of work, if making images that show beauty like across difference, that feel really rooted in presence, and imperfection, and join them in and date and all of those things that we've talked about. And if lots of the people who are joining these are folks who are interested in learning more about long form, and how they can bring that into their own business models, come check it out, fit for you, yeah. There's an image on your website. I've done yoga for a long time. And I had a small period of my life where I was quite thin. And that was a very short period of time. But now I've gone back to how I had that myself. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting that I'm hyper mobile. So I'm quite naturally bendy. Anyway. Yeah. And there's an image on your website of a lady. She's pretty much nude. But you can't I mean, she's got a leg in the spot. You can't see a bottom half. But, you know, she's doing this massive back then. And oh, yeah, I was like, I've found that so inspiring. Because it's like, I'm big. And you don't have to be skinny to be flexible. You know, like, yeah, I feel like, that's this thing that's still in my head from the gym. The gym days when I was instructing people was like, I don't know, it was like, it just reminded, like, I know this stuff. Like, I know, I live this life. I know it. But it reminded me like this thing that still stuck in my head. So I just banged myself on the head and attempt to get it out. You know, just reminded me that anybody can be flexible. You know? Why is this thing that you have to rethink to reflect? Sorry? That's like it. That's one of my favorite images that I've ever made. I love that picture. Yeah, it's just you. Yeah, it's true. But you're absolutely right. Like, we have these ideas about health and how it relates to body size. And they're frequently like, just bullshit, like, your strength, your flexibility, your endurance, what you're getting what I mean, like all of these sorts of markers that are actually important, like blood pressure, any of those things. They don't have to be related to weight. But we put so much idea on like, what the size or what a number says versus like, well, what is it doing? Also, you know, then there's a whole argument to over like, and you get to be loved even if your body can't do that, because there's a whole lot of non able bodied people that can't do those things. Yes, absolutely. I don't know. It's just not reserved for like gym rats. Yeah, yeah. This is a really fun talk. It's been one year ever. I'll have to do something new and exciting. So then I can convince you to let me come back on. Oh, I've got this new thing to talk about. Let's have another case. Let's Let's do it again. Thank you so much. It's been so lovely speaking to you, all the best with everything. And I'm really, really happy to see you doing this stuff, because it's so worthwhile is the word I'm looking for. It's really, it was really nice talking and thanks for giving. Mom's an artist and Mother artists like a platform. It's, it's my pleasure. I love that. I'm just grateful people want to talk to me. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic Mom

Alisha Burns Australian podcaster + author S3 Ep82 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alisha Burns, a podcaster and author based in Melbourne Australia, and a solo mum by choice (SMBC) to her daughter Lexi. Alisha was born in New Zealand and moved to Australia 8 years ago. After getting married, going through a stressful IVF journey, and then experiencing a pregnancy loss, Alisha's marriage broke down. She spent the next 6 years searching for 'Mr Right,' on all the dating apps, even moving countries. It was during a time of great loss for her family that Alisha made the realisation that what she was looking for wasn't actually a husband, it was to become a mother. Alisha then began the journey of having her own daughter Lexi using a donor. After appearing as a guest on another podcast for SMBCs, Alisha became inspired to not only share her own story, but of those who had also experienced this journey, and also to make available resources and information for those thinking of taking this path. Thus began the No Need for Prince Charming podcast and online communty. Alisha is also an author, with her book My Perfect Family available now . Her book aims to normalise the language around families, that all kinds of families are perfect, no matter how they are made up, and that all children are really just the same. **This episode contains mentions of IVF and pregnancy loss** Connect with Alisha - podcast instagram / podcast website / listen to podcast Her book instagram / book website Podcast - instagram / website Alisha would like to offer a special for podcast listeners - 15% off her book. Use the code ART15 at checkout before the end of February 2023 If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for joining me today on another episode of The Art of Being a mum podcast. It is a pleasure to have you here, wherever you are all around the world. As I record, this is the final week of school holidays here in South Australia. We've had six weeks and I'm ready to go back to work and my kids are ready to go back to school and I think most of you, if not all of you in South Australia or Australia, probably feeling the same way. It's been a long six weeks. My guest this week on the podcast is Alicia burns. Alicia is a podcaster and author based in Melbourne, Australia, and she's a soccer mom by choice to her daughter Lexi. Alicia was born in New Zealand, but she moved to Australia eight years ago. After getting married, going through a stressful IVF journey and then experiencing a pregnancy loss. Alicia his marriage broke down. She spent the next six years searching for Mr. hight on all the dating apps, and even moving countries. It was during a time of great loss for her family that Alicia made the realization that what she was looking for wasn't actually a husband, it was to become a mother. Alicia then began the journey of having her own daughter, Lexi using a diner. After appearing as a guest on another podcast for solo mums. By choice, Alicia became inspired to not only share her own story, but of those who had also experienced this journey, and also to make available resources and information for those thinking of taking on this path. Thus began the no need for Prince Charming podcast and online community. Alicia is also an author, with her book, my perfect family available now. Her book aims to normalize the language around families, that all kinds of families are perfect, no matter how they are made up, and that all children are really just the same. This episode contains mentions of IVF and pregnancy loss. I hope you enjoy today's chat. Thank you so much for coming on, Alicia. It's an absolute pleasure to have you welcome. Thank you so much for having me today. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you can detect your necks in you in Australia or New Zealand. I'm in Australia. I'm in Port Melbourne. I've been here coming up eight years. So they're still I think it's ease I can't say properly apparently. But a lot of the time people don't pick it. I haven't read anything for accents. I really love imitating and doing accent. So it's like, I'm really like listening to how people talk and how they shape their mouth when they talk. So yeah, don't take it personally. It's not a while I still pretend that most people can't tell. I'll go with that. Yeah, cool. Idea. So whereabouts were you born? Or where did you grow up? So I grew up in Wellington and I moved over here when I was 35. But yeah, I spent most of my life in Wellington City for a little stint in Palmerston North when I went to uni, and that was it. In other words, yeah, Wellington for most of my life. Yeah, you are a podcaster can you share with us what, what your podcast is about and how it all came about? So my podcast is interviewing Australian women who have decided to take motherhood into their own hands by having child using donor conception. So it's called no need for Prince Charming and basically Plan A didn't work out or maybe that wasn't even your plan or you just didn't want to partner and you've gone on to to have a child alone. It was inspired because that's the journey that I've been having to take. It's been a long road to get to that point but at 30 I decided to have a child on my own because Plan A wasn't working out, though this will hopefully help inspire and empower other women who are considering this journey, because it's something I wish I had when I was going through. Yeah, it's I mean, it's certainly a lot more common than I think people realize. It's, I mean, personally, I've known I mean, I, my, my town's only got a 30,000 people. And I know two people, like friends of mine, that that have taken that journey. And I'm sure there's so many more, but we just don't hear about it. So yeah, like having having the podcast. In the end, you're very active on your Instagram, sharing the stories and sharing experiences. And I think that's really important. I think going into it, I knew one person that I worked with who had done it, but I didn't really know her to have a proper open conversation about it. And I had a different perception in my mind about who does this sort of journey. So I was very big on joining the Instagram community and finding a lot of other like minded women. And then once I start the podcast, I'm just blown away by the variety of people, and the variety of ways and stories that they've had to go through it. But at the end of the day, they all tend to be very strong, very determined woman. So I'm building an amazing village of incredible woman surrounded with which is fantastic. The reasons that that mothers decide to do this, what sort of reasons are they very varied reasons paths are for for quite a few. It's just, they've tried the internet dated, they've been married, they've had relationship failures, whatever else. And they just get to the point where they just haven't found the right partner to have a child with. And for me, personally, I am divorced, I went through a pretty, pretty rough time and went through three years of infertility, a lot of IVF and ended up unfortunately, my son was stillborn. And after that my marriage didn't survive. And what was it? Six years later, I still hadn't met anyone. I even tried moving countries to see if I could find my elusive Prince Charming. I've done all the dating sites, I've done everything, but just nothing close to a relationship. So the day my dad died was actually the day I decided to do this. I thought what was most important to me was finding a partner. But actually what was most important was having a mother. And I'm glad that it happened when it did. Otherwise, it could have been too late. And yeah, and now I have my beautiful little Alexandra and having a partner is probably the last thing on my mind. At the moment. I don't know how he'd fit in, to be honest. But my life is so full, and I feel so content and just feel how I was always meant to be. So if anyone else is in the same situation where motherhood is the most important thing to them, rather than compromise or do something slightly dodgy, like doing a one night stand or something. There are other options nowadays, and it is a lot easier than it used to be. Yeah. on that. Are there particular sort of rules in different states in Australia, about accessing the treatment or the procedures to get pregnant by yourself? Yeah, so all states are different. Of course, there was one thing that really surprised me about Australia. And so I'm in Victoria, which is one of the most regulated in Australia, you basically can only use clinic referral recruited sperm. So every donor will be based in Victoria themselves, they asked darling to tweak the rules a little bit that they might be able to do overseas sperm, but it does mean that each individual clinic has to recruit its own donors. And it can be quite hard for them to do that. So you might have, especially after the pandemic, people are finding very hard to get access to sperm. So whereas I had a choice of, I think, 30, and 14 of which were Caucasian, and I wanted my daughter to look like me, so I wanted a Caucasian donor. So I could have like a fun party with my girlfriends and have champagne and, you know, made sperm cookies and sperm, bruschetta, toasts, and we, we went through all the profiles and, and worked out which one we want to cut out heads for magazines, and we gave them names, you know, made a really big deal about it to try and make it really fun. Women going through it today might have a choice of two, if they're lucky. So it's a little bit different. So any men if you're listening, and you would consider being a donor, please go and contact a clinic. And there's a definite need for it. Now, there are quite a few rules in regards to how many families can be created from a donor as well. So you would have probably potentially seen a lot of media, especially coming out of the states, where you know, there's donors that I've got hundreds and hundreds of children all around the world. In Victoria you can only give to 10 families so potentially there are nine other families that my daughter has half siblings created. and they can have unlimited children in their family, but it's only 10 families total. Yeah, there are other ways, I suppose that you could go down this path using a known donor, or there are some that aren't clinic recruited, that are doing through websites and that sort of thing. And just have to be very careful, if you are going to go down that route is just there are a lot of legal potential implications and other things that could come about. So the safest way is to go either with someone that you know, and get the proper legal documentation, or to do it through a clinic. So also in Victoria, there's a governing body, I guess you call it called Vatta. And they look after managing all of the donor donors and donor recipients. And then in the future, if my child wants to make contact with her donor, they'll help manage that for us, because you can't actually be an anonymous donor anymore. So you have to be what's called an ID release. So when the child turns 18, they can get access to contact you. I was actually going to ask about that, like, what's the ramifications down the track if if a child decides they'd like to meet their, their biological father? Yeah, right, it's really interesting with that are as well, they do counseling and things before you make the donor. So they help facilitate their contact in the first place. And then you do counseling for yourself, your child and the donor before those meetings happen as well. So everyone's going into it in the best frame of mind to get the most out of it. A lot of donors will say that they are open to contact before the child is 18 as well, if the child wishes that. So that's something you can push through again through Varta. And I think all states are different. But I think Victoria is the best for that sort of support, which is great for us because we live here. Yeah, absolutely. And is there also screening or testing to make sure there's no genetic abnormalities or illnesses or Yeah, so it's actually quite a process. If you're going through a clinic recruited donor, I think they have to have they do a lot of blood test, and they do a donation, and then they have to wait six months, and they do another donation and do more health checks, just to make sure nothing's changed in that time. And when you get the donor paperwork, when you're selecting which one you want, it's got the full family history in that as well. So if they had some sort of, they're a carrier for some sort of, say chromosomal issue, potentially, they wouldn't be allowed to be a donor, or it will be clearly displayed on the billing profile, so you knew what you're getting into. But you can see you know, that your grandmother, the grandmother had cancer, or their father died of a heart attack, all of that sort of thing. So you've got the full medical history, if you're going clinic recruited, that you can see exactly what you're getting yourself into, because some people might have in their family a high chance of cancer. So they might want to avoid a donor that's got that as well to try and minimize and passing things on. So you get a lot of information if you do the clinic, recruited path. Yeah. Just another question. I'm finding this really interesting. When when you get that the little book to look through to see who you're choosing from, do they give you information on what they're like, personally, like, their traits and stuff like that? Like how much information do you receive about the donor, the mind is going back, what, three, four years now. And things have changed a little bit. But I got you get a list of the profiles was very simple information, like the age height, not the age, just the height, hair color, eye color, nationality, I think. And then from that list, you would narrow it down to the ones you want to get full profiles for the full profiles, then give the demographic demographic information for the parents as well. So you can see so I could sit there and do like my fifth form biology and I've got brown eyes, my dad had blue, there's a chance that you know, and hit his mother had green so and it worked out because she got Hazel, so bad, but you can do that sort of thing better than it also they answer some questions. And then it's up to the donor, really how much information they put in there. Some are very short answers. Some are very long, but it can give you a bit of an indication about their personality, my donor, specifically when I read his profile as that I know, I feel like I know if I met you in real life, we'd get on really well. We had very similar values. He was all about family and animals. And just the way he'd written his answers. I could have written that myself. So yeah, and there's there's a wide variety there's, you know, highly educated there are some concrete workers there's there's everything. So there should be someone for for everyone, because everyone has different tastes and what they're looking for. But you do get quite a bit of information. And since I, what had my success well, for my daughter, though, they have changed things and they have a new sort of donor Bank, which they call Adam, I went through City Fertility and that's that's who they use. And when I rang up because you can ring and find out if there are any siblings, you can't get much information, you can just know that there's one or not. And they had more information from him, including toddler photos. So I now have title photos of my daughter's donor, which is really interesting because I always thought she was identical to my dad. Yeah. And then I saw the donor photo and it's like yeah, so some some clinics give you a lot of information. I think if you're in other states, but particularly in Western Australia, they use more American sperm banks and you get a lot of information. Some people even get recordings so they can hear the voice of the donor. So there is quite a bit that you get. But it's not quite like the movies where you've looking through the books. Oh, that's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. So I want to go back a bit to obviously you went through the journey, and you were compelled to share it. Why did you choose podcasting? Like, are you do you have a background in like, writing? Or have you done anything like this before? Or? Not really? No, I was actually asked to be a guest on a podcast, a girl in America who runs a similar podcast called The single greatest choice. And I did the first half of my episode, the day before I got induced, know, the day I got induced, I think, Oh, yeah. And then six months later, I did the follow up to and so from that, then I sort of started listening to them. I hadn't really listened to podcasts a lot. Before that, I used to listen to kind of self help motivational ones, maybe on my walk to work, but nothing specifically to pregnancy, or solely mom by choice. And then it just got me thinking, and I think I had her in the beginning of the pandemic. So I first year maternity leave was basically the two of us at home, and couldn't leave the house more than an hour a day. Yeah. And I didn't realize how much I would love being a mum, and how much I became myself as a result. And it just made me really want to help other women make that choice as well. The amount of women that I met who are a bit older than me, will I wish that had been an option or that I'd gone down that path. I didn't want other people to be in that situation. So I thought this is a resource that I could help create. And what was most important was that there was an Australian voice for it, because there were many podcasts around the world, but not specifically with an Australian voice. And of course, every state is different, what you go through, and just want to provide a variety of stories, but also give people hope. I have some people who got pregnant they first IUI I have people who've had to go to South Africa to get egg donors as well. You know, there's a wide variety. So no matter where you are on your journey, or what you're contemplating, hopefully you can find a story relate to. And that's fantastic. I think that's wonderful. On to the more about your podcasting, how did you find setting it up and getting into a week? Are you the sort of person that I was talking to someone else the other day about when they started their podcast, and we're comparing our styles? Do you need to have everything like organized ready to go before you do it? Or are you the sort of person that just does it, and then sort of works things out? As it comes up as you're going? I think I watched quite a few YouTube videos that I found. I didn't even know how to do the RSS feed or how it even got on to Spotify. So I just did a bit of Googling and research and I'd work that much out and was like, okay, so I need to get a website where I can do this all and then I need to find some guests and how am I going to record it. So just Googling again, I found some great YouTube content and just watch that and my garage band. Sure. That's already on my computer can't be that hard. Need a microphone. Okay, buy a microphone. And then I just put the call out on Instagram and just said, you know, if I was to do this, would anyone volunteer and immediately I had I think 15 woman go yes. It was like, Okay, I've got the bass, I can do this. And it's just, I just backed myself and the first one probably took the longest to record because that was my story. Yeah, yeah. You're always so critical of yourself and what you sound like and everything else. And I think honestly, one of the biggest surprises is people keep commenting on how nice my voices never had that my whole life. Like I could listen to you for hours. You're so relaxing. I'm like, Am I okay? My dad always told me off for talking too fast. So maybe maybe I've grown up with a microphone in front of me. I don't know. But yeah, it's and then yeah, I just I just winged it. I don't get it. A lot of it. I have basically the same format for all and it seems to work. I have some feedback along the way which I've tried to incorporate so making it less about pregnancy and more about the conception and then life. So yeah, same kind of format everyone kind of know As what's coming if they've listened to an episode? Yep. And just whatever they're talking about, I guess which is probably the same for you. Yes. Very similar. Yeah, I find it's good. I like to have the the rough idea of the way I do each episode. Same thing people know what's coming, but then yeah, wherever it goes, it goes and I like that because I think people will talk about what they need to talk about. And same thing I don't eat it too much for takeout in my library and you stumble over my words, so do be careful you, daughter, how old is it? You call it Alexei? I've noticed on your Lexie on your Instagram and she calls herself Alexandra though so she will be she was Alex to start with but she was had no here for so long. Even though she was wearing a lot of pink. Everyone thought she was a boy. So my favorite Grey's Anatomy character. Or I loved I was actually watching that this morning. I've been rewatching it rewatching all the rewatching it for like the fifth time. Yeah. That's easy background noise when you're doing other things. You know what's coming? So yeah, that's thing you you miss a little bit. You've you've sort of know where they're going to be at when you come back to it. They're not going to do anything radically different. I'm actually I'm up to the what I don't even know what season it is now lose track. But Christine has just like quit. And so Derek's taking her fishing, and it's like this. It's just hilarious. So anyway, so far, I'm at the point where Christina and Burke are just about to get married. So ah, yeah, that that's that's that's a long time back. Yes. But now it's it's really I love that show. I never used to love it. I thought I'd watched it because everyone else was watching it. And I was like, oh, what's the so I'm gonna watch it. And then I sort of got off of it. But now it's up and you can watch everything on streaming and just sit there and watch it all day long. And Shonda Rhimes is another Solomon by choice. Oh, there you go. He's up via adoption. But yes, she has three kids by herself. Yeah. So there are a lot of inspiring, very successful woman who have gone down this path as well, which I think that's an interesting lessons just on it, Natalie. Yeah, baby guy. And I think that, can that be? I don't know, I was gonna say it can be inspiring, but it's at the same time. Could that make? I don't want to say normal people, because we're all normal in some, you know what I mean, but non celebrities who have access to buckets of money, you know, you might think, well, they're doing it because they've got a nanny or, you know, that sort of thing. Like, so I guess it could go either way. Couldn't? Yeah, I made a real a long time ago, which had a lot of different celebrities that most people weren't even aware of had done it by themselves. Yeah. And I think it's just if you see a powerful, successful woman, and she has been able to have do it as well, because of my Hollywood romances don't seem to last very long do they? But there are other options. And if they can do it, why can we? Yeah, no, I think that's that's fantastic. So How old's your daughter now? She will be three at the end of April. And times three year old? Oh, yes. I've been seeing your journey with a giving up the debris. That's fine. It has gone surprisingly well. Very glad. But now we're battling. I don't want to go to bed. And now she's climbing out of a cot. And yeah, I was at 1030 last night, and I thought was 10. And in my bed, which I'm not overly keen on. But it also means that I'm not getting any time for me, which I struggle with a bit mentally because that's, that's when I have my creative time and go after all my passion projects that I'm doing. So you know what it's like with a two and a half year old, if you're in the room, they need to be doing whatever you're doing. So you can't do anything for yourselves. Yeah, I had some really good routines previously. Yeah. Yeah. They like to throw spanners in the works, right. So I'm about to start recording the next season is like, how am I going to fit this in? If you're not going to sleep? I don't want to just stick you in front of an iPad or night. It's not the best habit. So hopefully, we can get that sorted in the next couple of weeks. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was gonna ask like, how what? When do you fit in doing the things that you'd like to do? So when, when she's in bed, you just go to go to work? So I get up at five in the morning now. Oh, wow. So I have to read two to two and a half hours to myself in the morning and most of that the last year has been spent on the podcast or my book. But this year, I need to start prioritizing my health so I'm going to try my gets on doing some exercise in that time as well before I move on to the passion project, so yeah. And then I used to be able to do it when she went to bed at seven. And that gave me a few hours at night as well. But yeah, that's not going to work if she goes to bed at 10, so I can get that fixed soon. So your book, I'm guessing that's about your journey and your experiences? No, no, tell me what it is. It's actually an illustrated children's book. And it's trying to bring awareness and normalities and language associated with donor conception. So it's showing that that all families are beautiful and perfect, no matter how they're made, and that all kids are just the same as everyone else. So there is 12 families in it. And I've got everything, same six families, divorced families, widower, and solid mom by choice and just normalizing the language. So you know, if the same sex family they had their child as a result of a surrogate or it's written better than that, but and then with me, it's with the help of a donor. So just normalizing that language that ideally, kids will get to the stage where they say, oh, Lexi doesn't have a dad, she has a donor and not think anything more of it, and possibly comments and just completely normalized. So yeah, I'm just waiting for my first print run to arrive. Really excited. Oh, congratulations. That's so exciting. So did you did you illustrate as well, you knew, you. Give me another surprise. That was probably the hardest part out of all of it. So when you asked him before how I went about doing the podcast, this was something I've had ideas about writing books for, oh, my God, I don't know how long I've started my memoir, probably about 50 times, and never done it. But then I had the idea of doing a children's book. And then this idea kind of came to me that there's nothing really in the market that normalizes that language. I think my target market is, shall we call air quotes, normal, traditional families. So then if they've got, you know, little Sammy comes to school, and he's got two dads, how do I explain that to my child? Here's a book that just shows you all that. And it makes it really normal and really fun. So a woman that I'd met through Instagram had published some donor conception books, which are more targeted to couples who've had us donate eggs, or sperm, or I've done it by themselves and and talks more for the child about how they were conceived. And I didn't want to do another book like that, because there are a few out there. But I had a really good conversation with her to understand exactly what she went through. And then I got over that whole paralysis of how, and they had a clear plan. Okay, this is what I need to do to get it. The words were probably the easy part was finding an illustrator, that was the hardest. Yeah. And I went through a few through on Fiverr, and everything else, and I ended up putting a call out on LinkedIn and Instagram to see if anyone knew anyone. And then I got recommended my my beautiful illustrator through that. She's got a friend that's actually solid mom by choice, it was following me. And so then I got in contact with her and Oh, my God, I loved the process, like both here and I miss it. Because like, every day, she'd be drawing different pictures. And we'd be having calls on it and going, Oh, what about doing this and these changes and tweaks and, and she learned a lot on the process as well. She's comes from a very traditional family construct her husband's a detective, she's got three kids, she lives in a small town, Victoria, you know, very different from the world that she was, she was illustrating. But she managed to take the pictures out of my head onto paper. And I just love the result. And the collaboration that we did to do it as well was just a really beautiful process. So fantastic. So what did you call the book? My perfect family? Yeah, right. I love that. So when will people be able to get their hands on it? So pre orders are open now. And I'm just waiting for the first print run to arrive. And so yeah, you can order it now. And by the time this podcast comes out, I'm sure it'll be in my hot little hands. And I'll be sending it out and spending my nights fighting a toddler to package up books, but you know, that's okay. Oh, fantastic. So you've got a website? What's your website called? It's my perfect family. book.com beautiful. All right, I'll put a hyperlink in the show notes for people to click away on. Oh, well download. It's fantastic. I work in early childhood education. So I've worked in childcare, long daycare setting for nine years and now working kindergartens. And I'm really amazed by I want to say the quality of children's books and then the knock quality of children's books. There are some really really poorly written books and I think how the heavens did this ever get printed, like how did this get past the checking of what's appropriate? You know, and then there are some lovely books but I've never seen a book that is doing what you're doing so well done. I'm really excited on the graphic Copy. Yeah, I think there's some beautiful books out there that show different families. But they don't talk about how they made. Yes, yes. Hopefully just solve that little gap as well. And I'd love to get it into daycares and schools. And yeah, like I say, I think their target audience is actually more traditional families so that they can help explain to their children, that families made all sorts of different ways. But every family is perfect, no matter how they're made. So yeah, absolutely. And I've spoken a bit lately to particular people about getting children involved in social issues, and from a young ages possible, because when they get to a certain point, they're really led by what adults, what sort of beliefs that they hold, so then they put them on their children, they change, you know, the innocence of that what that child held before that point. So I really think it's yeah, this will be really, really helpful for adults too, because it can be a little bit confronting and confusing to know how to refer to people and how they like to be referred to, I think it's the whole thing of my daughter doesn't have a father, she doesn't have a dad. It's not that there, he lives in a different house, or overstays, although I don't know who he is, is that she doesn't actually have one, she has a donor. So the more we can normalize that language, and that kids just say she doesn't have one share the donor. And there's, there's an acceptable alternative that they can put in there instead of dad, then hopefully, that will help build acceptance out of everyone. So like you said earlier, you can get that information into kids, the better. Yeah, and then be like, Oh, they've got donor, oh, well, this, this family's got two mums, or they had to use a donor as well. Okay. Donors are useful for lots of people. Yeah. And it just becomes that's just the normal way of speaking. It's not, Oh, don't say that. Or do you know, like this dad, and I think it when I was growing up, yeah, growing up in such inclusive times anyway, then it's not going to be like, what it would have been for us in the 90s. You know, if someone didn't have a dad, it would have been very strange. And now we'll just be like, I have one. And yeah, it's really great time to be embarking on this, because there's so many different families. And I feel that they are all really accepted no matter how much how they constructed. Yes, great. No, I love it. And I put on Yum, that's fantastic. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Now, I want to talk about your identity before you became a mom. So you mentioned before, it was really a really positive thing that becoming a mum allowed you to be become who you are sort of thing. How was that experience for you? It really, really positive, positive thing really? Yeah. So I think when I look back on it, as long as I can remember, all I wanted to do and all that determines success was for me was to get married and have children. I don't know where that's come from. If that was just, you know, I grew up in the 90s. And watching Beverly Hills nine to one, I don't know. But as long as I can remember, the most important thing was to find that husband. So I found a husband, and got married, when he eight turns out he wasn't the best husband for me. And I probably just settled because I wanted to tick those boxes, and have the husband had the white picket fence, everything. I also wanted the career. And that was kind of what defined me. So once I lost the husband and the big house, and the only thing that was left was my career. So I started focusing really strongly on that, and doing everything possible, and usually not in the best ways to find the new man and the husband. Number two, I was convinced. So New Zealand, you have to be separated two years before you can get divorced, I was convinced I would be engaged by the time, you know that I was divorced. And I think so much of my self worth and everything else was determined by whether I had a partner or not. Which is, in hindsight, very sad. But I haven't got to the point, I moved to Australia, and I contemplated freezing my eggs, but I thought no, what's more important is that I find that other person to share my life with and if it's meant to be a workout. And that was I think just probably bearing down the trauma of having to go through infertility for so many years. And Lester Watson and the rest of that. When I made this decision that night when I when I got pregnant, I had quite a bit of anxiety throughout the pregnancy after obviously, pregnancy after loss. But once I could start feeling her move and that sort of thing. I relaxed a bit more into it and I just I just had this overwhelming feeling that it was going to work out. And I just had faith from that one that I was going to and then went to it was just me and her. So like I said it was full pandemic. I think my last seven weeks of work. I was at home and then my neighbor dropped me at the hospital. So I could have stayed in the hospital for five nights came home. And then it was basically just us for the first six months. And it was just a beautiful little bubble, I didn't have to worry about work, I didn't have to worry about proving myself to anyone, I couldn't have visitors. So my house ended up being the tightest it's ever been. But you know, it wasn't that pressure because people were here or just because I had nothing else to do. They were so relaxed, she was a great sleeper. And either and I don't know, I just I just felt so content in myself and my own little life. And I still feel that way. Now. I mean, it's a bit bit of a hustle at the moment, because I have a full time job, as well as all my side things. And her and I want her to experience as much as possible and do things that, you know, interests here. So we're doing swimming lessons, and dancing, and all of that stuff. So it's a pretty busy life. And the thing that's gone is my social life. Yeah. But I don't need that. Like I used to. I used to fixate on that being a definition of how popular or how like there was whatever else and it's like going out to a bar is the least interesting thing possible to me right now. I want to spend it with quality people and doing quality things. And ideally, that involves my daughter as well. So yeah, life has changed considerably. And then a element. Yeah. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So sure, I keep looking at your cat sitting there. Teresa. What what breed is she is Burmese and she had her teeth done last week, so it's just a bit too late today. She hasn't been very quiet since normally. She just jumps up and down on my desk and cries the whole time. So yeah, at least quiet. But yeah, she's seen a lot of meetings, like Jilin like, oh, I used to have a bit of maize. And his name was Teddy. And he was because she's gorgeous. What's your name? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, he was he was a beautiful boy. But he, when he came, sort of matured, he started attacking my other cat that he had leaving with us and older cat. And we ended up having to find him a new home. But she had a lovely home as a single cat. He just wasn't the sort of cat that could live for you. That was she had a brother, who I lost last year, a year ago. And then I got the dog. And they were not happy about that. And the old cat that her brother used to beat up the dog when we lost Rodrigo. Now knocklyon Let me like cuddle up together and things and nothing they protecting each other from the toddler states. Oh, love it. topic that I really like to talk about with mums is the concept of mum guilt. And I'm wondering what you think about that, if you have any thoughts on that. It's interesting one, I don't feel like I have much mum guilt. But then I questioned whether I'm doing a good enough job quite a bit lately, as and I think maybe the mum, guilt will come more as she gets older. And I think if I do not have the downtime to be able to have time to myself and pursue my things, that really starts taking a toll on me. And unfortunately, that can come out on her as well. So you know, if she's not going to be detained 30 My Yeah, not my best morning, I have never felt guilty about going back to full time work. And my mum and dad both worked full time, what I am very conscious of is that I don't want her to see me working and prioritizing work over here. So going back to work, I've had very strong boundaries, and I've managed to stick to them. So previously, before her, I would be working sort of 60 to 80 hours a week, sometimes now, you don't get me out of nine to 530. That's it. And I think going back to work and working from home for most of it because of the pandemic did help make that transition a lot easier. And we have really strong routines that mean that we have some quality time in the morning and we have quality time when I pick her up at night as well. And we try to do the same sort of things. So don't think that daycare is actually the best thing for her as well like being with your little buddies and what she's learning in that social interaction. So I don't feel guilty about that. And I don't think I'd be a very good stay at home mom anyway. My dream would be that I don't have to work for someone else. And then my book and whatever else I pursue, can allow me to have sort of an income where I can be the more present especially when she goes to school and she has no shorter days. I would love to be able to drop her off and pick her up each day and take Get your whatever activity she's doing and be more involved in her life rather than leave that to someone else. But my mum actually moved over here when I had my daughter. Yeah, so she lives 10 minutes walk away. So if it's not me, it will be it will be grandma. So I'm very, very lucky for that. But yeah, ideal world, by the time she's at school, I'll be able to be even more involved. She definitely is the priority when I'm not at work. So you're trying to get that balance between working from home and work in the office makes a big difference, as well for trying to have that quality time at home to just focus and do work and do most of my meetings. They when I go to the office, it's just back to back meetings all day. But take all those things off so that my days at home, I can just focus and get work done. So again, and then trying to do so like do the washing during the day, that sort of thing. That's always waiting for a meeting. Yeah. So again, when it's my daughter and I, it's just quality time, it's not doing bullshit chores and that sort of stuff. I knew you wouldn't put on your truck, that monkey, I just had a feeling that that wouldn't be like feel like it. It's yeah, I think that's awesome. I love that I once had someone, give it to people on who didn't have it. And one of them had to google it, because they just didn't even know what it was. And I thought that is so awesome. That's what we all should be like? Well, I think most of it is sending them to daycare, isn't it, but I think that's the best thing for him. Honestly, I feel guilty about that. I never feel guilty for that. Because I've been like I've been in that industry. And it is wonderful that the children thrive, the social interaction, what they're learning, and just the stuff that they can do there that they could never do at home. You know, it's just when you pick them up, you get these lovely compliments, and it's like, well, I must be doing something. No. And then the thing the other thing is by working full time, it means that I can afford the lifestyle that I want to give so I'm not gonna feel guilty about that. Yeah, I would rather have that and then struggle and have to worry about you know, if I had enough food to feed or or pay the bills, I'd rather be able to, you know, go to Fiji. Yeah. Yes, that'd be excellent. Have you done much traveling? The two of you. We went to New Zealand at the end of last year. I'm gonna say that was a trip not a holiday. It was it was hard work. New Zealand is not a great place for toddlers. And I think we probably went too long. But it was really important for mum to go. And it helped her solidify that she had made the right decision. So that was good. And it was lovely for me to be able to introduce Lexi to my friends that you know, haven't seen in years. But know next time I want kids clubs so that I get a holiday to sound sounds perfect. And I'm actually going with another solo mom friend that I've met through Instagram. It's one of those people like she feels like your bestie but we've never actually met in real life, but her daughter's similar act. So I think we'll have a really great time together. Oh, lovely. That's exciting when you get when you're doing that in June, so I'm going for my birthday. Love anymore does it so and you'll be escaping the Melbourne weather in winter two, which we love with that's usually not too bad. By this ages. I've could have lifted longer to really escape but it no good on Yeah, you got to do these things. So do you find that? Um, no, I think people and even families with young kids, regardless of whether they're, there's one parent or two can be really reluctant to do things with young kids because they're put off you know, this is going to be hard or whatever. Like do you have any advice for for people listening that might feel like that? No, I'm already feeling like it's gonna be hard. I'm hoping this time though, she'll be a bit more open to just sitting with the iPad on the plane. But the first time it was like this is all new. I did have to make a big call on it though. Stupidly, if I went via Sydney it would save me $1,100 Oh, so I had to really wait out but that's a lot of money. Yeah, to a save it and take nine to 10 hours to get there and have to get through like Sydney Airport with a bag and potentially sleeping toddler because we were getting to Melbourne and live 11 o'clock at night or something or do I just pay the money? And it's like, no, I'm just gonna pay the money. It's just easier just to fly direct get here hopefully have lounge access if I can Wingull that. And then just like direct and be there not two flights, having run in between and all the rest of it because it's the time at the airport I found was probably the hardest. When we went to New Zealand was coming home she just knows time of day. So it's like if you can get an early flight I think that we're really helped us or when they're going to likely sleep. But yeah, there's just no easy way I think to travel with kids. So just suck it up and go, because it'll be amazing once you're there. Let's see theory. Don't let it stop you from doing it. Just do it. Yeah, and it depends on the kid to like, they're so different, like my two, I've got seven years difference between mighty. And one, you could do so many things within the other one you've just been, you'd just be a full believer and try certain things. Oops, you know, it's it's like, you just never know how things are gonna work out. And you just don't know how much they're gonna change. And that time as well. I mean, that's six months from now. Yeah, be like a little angel. That's the or she could be a complete terror that wants to run around the whole plane. I'm not sure. Let it put me off booking. So yeah, that's what you said a time. Yeah, no good on. Yeah, I think that's really good. Other things that I wanted to trips we want to take, but I just need to wait till she's older. Like I can't wait to take it to Disneyland. But there's no point doing that until probably about eight and actually appreciate it properly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. So you talked before about the needing to do your passion projects like that as your outlet is that is that something that you really hold on to is as something that's really important to you and, and part of who you are? I think so I think previous to Lexie, it was my outlet was sewing in the did a lot of that. And when my first year maternity leave again, I still did a lot of sewing and I was making a lot of things for her. But now it's going to, I've got a why, since I've had her. It's I'm so passionate about creating these things. And actually having follow through as well. I think I've been someone who's always had a lot of ideas, but just not the courage to back myself to follow through with them. And I want her to see me as someone who does that, so that she can be encouraged that she has ideas, she can just go ahead and go after her dreams as well. And I think maybe it started with my dream was to become a mom and I had the follow through to have it on my own. So if I can do that, I can do anything. And I think getting really clear. So I did some some dream life work through an is Kiki K book or something and that I would love, I would love to not have to work for someone else. And so it's finding one of those things, and I guess getting over the imposter syndrome a lot of the time as well. To say, you know, I can be that person and I can do these things and that there is worth and what I'm doing and I think the podcast was the first start, the fact that I have people volunteering, I haven't really had to go out too hard or chase people down. And I've got enough to do the full season. And I've already got, you know, the first few months of next of this year, done, I just have to eat at them. Sure you put that off to like, I can do that. And that was successful. I just need to work out a way to monetize it. And it's like, now I've got an idea for a book. Why not? It's just understanding the how to do it. I'm getting the networks that will back what I do as well. And it's helping them help their kids. So yeah, yeah, good on. Yeah, I love that. It's very inspiring. It's awesome. Have you always felt like that throughout your life? Or is that something that's happened as you've gotten older, do you think? I think I've always had ideas, and I've always ideally would work for myself. But I've just never had the courage to do it. And I haven't I think I've been surrounded by the cheerleaders that I needed to do that. And now, I guess I've got the cheerleaders in the online community, but it's also I've become my own cheerleader with things. Yeah, but it's also who I've met, that can help and to actually ask for help. So you know, talking to Nat, who'd already published her book to understand how she did and I basically just completely copied exactly what she did. It's just with my illustrations and my words, but you know, the same size book so that I know that all fit into a certain size envelope, so that I can put it as a large envelope instead of having to pay package, you know, postage and all those sort of things. Yeah. Consider things when you can just learn from someone who's already done it. So yeah. And then doing a few kind of self development courses as well. Just to really get clear what my vision is. And what why I want the life that I do for Lexi and I and I think it's because I want it so much for her. Yeah, it just gives me that real drive to try and create it. I've got it really clearly in my head what it looks like and I can't wait to have that with her but it's gonna take some work so she needs to go to sleep that's a part in the plan because she all she has to do is go to sleep. Go to sleep and we're going to have an amazing yeah, yeah. I have funny. Oh, that's great. So obviously, in the future, you've, you've got the book coming out, which is so exciting. I'm really excited to get a copy of that, actually, and to take it to my work T. What can you share this coming up, I would love to actually write my memoir. Like I said, I've started about 50 times, I would think there'll be really, and I think the ending has changed so much, and what the focus would be has changed so much as well, that exists every, every year, it evolves a little bit more. And I think I'm probably getting to become one of the best versions of myself at the moment. So the journey of how I got to that, and maybe it's just part a, I don't know, but I'd love to do that. But again, that's going to take considerable amount of my child being asleep to write that. I've got other ideas about building a body more resources and community for other women embarking on this journey, and, and to help support them just to kind of have everything in one place, really. So if you're thinking about, you know, finding information needs, maybe some online courses and that sort of thing. But again, for that it's time and getting over impostor syndrome, I think is the biggest one for them. I've got the domain name and I've got the Instagram page. I just haven't done anything with it. It's got to coming soon. So yeah, right. It makes you do solo solo mum society. So Oh, I love it. I've got a cool name. Yeah, do something. Yeah, no good on. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I really love chatting with you. And I've learned so much. And I'm sure a lot of my listeners have learned a lot to you. So thank you for sharing. So honestly, it's been great. Yeah, and all the best so I'm really excited for you. If you want to learn more, no need for Prince Charming is the podcast on my Instagram page. So I share probably way too much on that but good on. Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks again, if the music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Alex McLaughlin Canadian acrylic and watercolour artist, S2 Ep36 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I welcome Alex McLaughlin to the podcast, Canadian acrylic and watercolour artist and mum of 2 boys from Midland Ontario. Raised in Honey Harbour on Georgian Bay , Alex was fortunate enough to have a childhood full of love and opportunity. Her summers can be best characterized by exploration, swimming, boating, and working for the family business. Having the opportunity to be on the water nearly every day since she was born has never been something she has never taken for granted. After working as a paramedic on the streets of Toronto for many years, Alex felt the pull to return to her childhood home, and now lives there with her husband and 2 boys. She now focuses solely on her art, working out of her home studio which allows her to to maximize precious painting time and be the present mother she has always wanted to be. Put simply, Alex feels like she is now doing what she was always meant to be doing. Ever since Alex was little, her grandmother encouraged her to practice and appreciate the arts as a way to document her life. Alex is a predominately self taught artist, but after taking a watercolour course by local Canadian artist John Hartman everything seemed to make sense for her and allowed her to explore her local area with a new set of eyes. Recently, Alex created her first-ever painting series that is very close to her heart: Georgian Bay Reflections . Using vibrant colour and layered brush strokes, Alex feels her way through each piece until its depth and composition are reminiscent of this special place that was, is and always will be home. Through the power of her expressionism artform, Alex's hope for us is to be reminded of how the simple and natural things in life are the most beautiful. In a world that seems to be evolving faster than ever before, Most of all her wish is to have us stop and experience, even just for a moment, the beauty of life translated through art. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety, OCD and depression** Visit Alex's website The Massasauga Rattler Snake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGW3MSt8nJI Beam Paints https://www.beampaints.com/ is the paint company Alex mentioned who she found making water colour paints locally. Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I welcome Alex McLaughlin to the podcast. Alex is a Canadian acrylic and watercolor artist and a mum of two boys from Midland Ontario. Raised in honey Harbor on Georgian Bay, Alex was fortunate enough to have a childhood full of love and opportunity. His summers can be best described by exploration, swimming, boating, and working for the family business. Having the opportunity to be on the water nearly every day since she was born has never been something she's taken for granted. After working as a paramedic on the streets of Toronto for many years, Alex felt the pull to return to her childhood home and now lives there with her husband and two boys. She focuses solely on her art working out of her home studio, which allows her to maximize precious painting time and be the present mother she's always wanted to be. Put simply, Alex feels like she's now doing what she was always meant to be doing. Ever since Alex was little, her grandmother encouraged her to practice and appreciate the arts as a way to document her life. Alex is a predominantly self taught artist. But after taking a watercolor course by local Canadian artists, John Hartman, everything seemed to make sense for her and allowed her to explore her local area with a new set of eyes. Recently, Alex created her first ever painting series that is very close to her heart, entitled Georgian Bay reflections. Using vibrant color and layered brushstrokes. Alex feels her way through each piece until its depth and composition are reminiscent of the special place that was is and always will be her home through the power of her expressionist art form. Alex's hope for us is to be reminded of how the simple and natural things in life are the most beautiful in a world that seems to be evolving faster than ever before. Most of all, her wish is to have a stop and experience even for just a moment. The beauty of life translated through art. This episode contains discussion around anxiety, OCD, and depression. Thanks so much for coming on today. Alex. It's such a pleasure to meet you all the way from Canada today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. Absolutely. It's such a pleasure. So tell us whereabouts you are in Canada. So I live in Midland, Ontario on Georgian Bay. It's a it's a massive Bay off of Lake Huron, one of the Great Lakes. And we're about an hour and a half an hour and a half north of Toronto. People call it cottage country, cottage country, what's the meaning behind that? Um, most people from the city that own cottages will head north pretty much every weekend. I know that people call it something different in many parts of the world. But yeah, it's called a cottage here. And most of them in my area are not tiny little cabins, a lot of them are are very extravagant. They're not exactly cottages they like made quite a bit of money has moved up here in the past, like 20 years so and then we're pretty close to Muskoka right next to us as well, which is can be kind of fancy, like major wakeboarding culture. And, ah, yeah, it's a pretty amazing place to have grown up and to live now. I left her about 12 years with school and my previous career and then moved back up here five years ago, so we're nice and settled in again. Yeah, yeah. So what's the weather like there? Now I have this real obsession with finding out temperatures and weather around the world, people I chat to were pretty extreme. Which I like So it's it's warming up a little bit now like today was gray and cloudy and and it was still cold it was I think minus seven or minus six Celsius. Yeah. Because you're in your Celsius so today was like warm compared to what it's been. It's been minus 20 to minus 30. Recently. Yeah, we were ice fishing this morning. Oh, my parents this and there was 20 inches of ice. Oh, wow. We don't seem to say you get that much ice. It's it's a good winter for ice and like people snowmobile all over the lake. Yeah, nice. Good. So, yeah, we have a very extreme weather we have like the lake effect. So we get tons and tons of snow. You have to. Some people don't have one, but it's very helpful to have a snowblower here. Like your full time job would be shoveling throughout the winter if you didn't have a snowblower so well, yeah, it's very extreme in the winter. And then we have pretty awesome warm, humid summers, so Oh, well. Yeah, the best of both worlds. So what's your sort of average champion Summer? Summer, like we we truly do have spring we have all all the seasons. So the spring can seem very, very long when we're anxious for the summer to come. But pretty reliably June, like through September now, anywhere from, like 18 degrees to it can be extreme heat warnings of you know, 40 degrees, sometimes, well, for about two months, we get between, I guess 25 And like 32, something like that. So that is amazing. It is that is truly amazing that you can have like zero like monastery up to like 40. That is incredible. Yeah. And we don't always have like a cold winter like this. I prefer it because then you can do stuff on the ice. And you can go skiing and snowboarding and all of that stuff. Like we are only 20 minutes from a hill. Not a big hill. It's not I wouldn't call it a mountain. But we have a few options here. And and then we have an ice rink in our backyard as well. We started that last year because of the pandemic and not being able to really go out right so yeah, yeah, no, I absolutely love it. The winters can be tough for sure. And most people will fly south during the winter for at least one trip. And and we're making the best of all the winter activities now. So yeah, that sounds amazing. I haven't I didn't realize places like that existed where you could have like a normal summer basically, and then have massive, massive winter. Yeah, it's really, for a lot of people. It's all about the summer here because the summers are really incredible. I've actually traveled in Australia and quite a few places. And the one thing I really missed while traveling was having my own boat because I don't live on an ocean and I'm so used to being able to boat like there's actually 30,000 islands in my area. All you kidding. It's the largest freshwater are archipelago. I think I said that right. archipelago, sorry. Which means just like the largest cluster of islands in freshwater in the world. It's yeah, so very interesting boating culture here. Yeah, right. Actually, that reminds me is it like, this is like a real left of field but the Ozarks TV show where they take boats everywhere. Is that kind of like? Totally. I would I would call the Ozarks a little bit more like Muskoka because there's a whole bunch of, they call them Muskoka lakes. So there's great lakes, where it's a lot more sheltered. Georgian Bay has much more open water in certain areas. So you can have all those, like nooks where it's protected if you stay in, like honey harbor is where I grew up. It's just a small drag from here. But then you can go to open water where you can't see anything and you feel like you're on the ocean. So yeah, we actually traveled to an island and a lighthouse on an island called the Western islands. And it takes about two to two and a half hours of driving fast, like straight in one direction not being able to see any thing, and then the island emerges out of nowhere. You post stuff like that with friends and get just like for safety but pretty wild. That sounds like an incredible place to leave. That's just wow. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. That's lovely I was reading on your website, you talked about honey Harbor, how you were so deeply connected to that Georgian Bay Area. And I love that your quote with the way that you describe things, its life translated through art in love that I'm primarily a self taught painter. I have been mostly doing acrylic paintings and, and mostly large scale, I really like to paint large, starting to mix in some smaller stuff, because painting large all the time is difficult with time management. But yeah, so that's mostly what I've focused on. And I've and I've recently been mixing in using watercolors as well, as more of like a daily paint. I was always super creative as a kid. Like I really took every project to the creative extreme in high school, stuff like that. But I didn't really sorry. And I was also very involved in the arts, just not fine art. So I was a competitive dancer for many years. And I played classical guitar until the end of high school. It's like I was always very involved in something that was really creative, but didn't really stumble upon painting until university actually. I had taken one elective course throughout my psychology degree, and got to do art. And we did two weeks of painting. So I just learned the basics. And I honestly didn't really I wasn't very proud of any any of the projects that we had in that class. But then beyond that year of taking that class, it stuck with me and I did a lot of paintings like for gifts for family and did a few commission jobs. And throughout the years, I kept coming back to it so and then I didn't get really serious about it until 2018 When I moved back here to Midland I was living closer to the city to Toronto, for my husband, because I was actually a paramedic in Toronto for eight years before diving into the art full time. You said that the painting you first like you discovered that at uni? Was there anyone else like in your family like growing up was painting ever exposed to earlier than that? So not necessarily painting. But I was gonna mention my grandmother I called her only because she she was German. She's passed now but so my mother's mother took care of us a lot. She helped out a lot with babysitting. A lot of my memories are with her. And she was super interested in art. She painted herself as well. But mainly she was a photographer. Yeah, right. Yeah, she didn't consider herself professional by any means. She struggled financially a lot of the time. But yeah, she was the one that really encouraged me would sit me down with all the materials for drawing. I remember her teaching me sort of like a just the way to draw certain things like a barn and she had a way to instruct me how to do that. And then it also remember doing a lot of like still life like vases with flowers in them and stuff with very special markers that she would get me. Yeah, somehow I never really got into painting with like professional paints. It's funny that I don't remember touching that until university. Yeah, she was the early influence. My parents were always super supportive. But they. And my mom is very creative herself with like interior design. And my dad is a builder. And so yeah, like, it's in the family. But yeah, she was my push for sure. And like she is one of the reasons. I do it today. And I sort of had the confidence to go for it. And I know, even though she's not here physically, yeah, I know. I hope that she knows what I'm doing. Yeah. Be proud. So yeah, that's really special. Oh, that's lovely. Growing up, so. Oh, so she didn't she wasn't alive, to see change careers and come back to Oh, yeah, she met my first son, who he's seven now. But she found out she was sick, like within that first year that he was born. So yeah, it's really kind of tragic, but but she clearly lives on through a lot of us. My aunt who's like her other daughter, is also an artist, and like, has been pursuing it more seriously as well. So yeah. Oh, that's lovely. It's like the legacy that's carried on through the family. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love the quote that you've got on your website, when you said I'm finally doing what I was meant to do. Yes, like you had to go through all this other stuff and maybe discover what you didn't want to do before you went? Actually I want to do was that was that an easy decision? Or hard in some ways to just give up, I want to say a nine to five like, solid job. I had worked really hard to be a paramedic. You so yeah, that was the part that was really hard for me was I've always been very introspective. And trying to balance what was going to make me the happiest I was, I was so lucky to have like an upbringing with all these opportunities, right. So I was trying to figure out a path that would make me super happy, but also seemed like a smart, logical path. Which led me to do this, like psychology degree, and I was considering business and all these other things. But I guess deep down inside, like, I was always very creative. And then, and I loved my career as a paramedic, super competitive, to get into school to get hired right out of school. And then it takes about five years of doing that job to start to feel settled and comfortable and not just freaked out and in a few of the situations, right. Yeah, it takes a long time to build that confidence. And then when we started having a family, it's like I knew we were going to have to make some tough decisions. Financially, you know, mortgage was going to become difficult. My husband is also a paramedic in Toronto, and he's he's still doing it there. And I just couldn't imagine doing the double shiftworker family with children, you basically have to hire a live in nanny to make it work. And then I just be working to pay for somebody else to take care of my children. And yeah, so I was starting to feel like a little bit. I was frustrated for sure, like knowing that these big changes were coming. But it's funny because now I'm happier than ever. And I really do think that just trusting the process not only like in my art but in life is super important. I have always been when not to make too many strict plans. I know that things can change. I especially learned that as a paramedic, right and just to really not take anything for granted and and try and appreciate every day as it comes and then know that they're the changes will come and I just tried to roll with it the best I can. So that's what we did. And I knew I needed to have something of my own. Like something really exciting to look forward to. As I was approaching that moment of officially quitting my paramedic career and moving on so yeah, I, I took a year leave of absence when we moved up north, away from the city, which it also that provided some major financial relief, by the way. So like all these changes were to set us up so that I could be at home with the kids and not worry as much about money, because leaving that Job was was a big paycheck as well. Yeah. So yeah, we moved north, and we're actually mortgage free because of the move, because we moved really like from very close to the city to two hours north where most people wouldn't, wouldn't go that far, right. And it was, it was tough. Like it was, even though I had grown up here, it didn't have too many strong friendships remaining like in that immediate area. So I really had to start over. Build those new connections and, and it eventually happened. But yeah, for a few years, it was tough. And so yeah, when we moved up, I took the year leave of absence. And then for about four months, I just was trying to, I was stressing over what to paint, I knew I was going to try and pursue painting. I just didn't know what I should paint because I wanted it to be successful. So I put a lot of pressure on that. But I just started painting all kinds of different things, different themes. You and and then enough work to sort of build a cohesive series, because A, in my research, I realized that was very important to make it as an artist or to get, you know, just to be successful, like to sell work and be represented or whatever. So yeah, just worked really hard to build a cohesive body of work. And then I launched my website, as soon as I had officially quit the paramedic job. And the response was amazing. I sold two original pieces, I think within the first two weeks, which is a nice boost of confidence. Yeah. And then yeah, it was a bit of a whirlwind, like lots, lots of cool opportunities. But then I got into the the fun, like figuring out the balance of trying to run my own business and be the full time mom and having a shiftworker husband, who's gone a week at a time kind of thing. So yeah, that was like a new area that you were like trying to work out the balance. Yeah. Well, you know, thankfully, it was busy and I wasn't bored. And I think that keeps you happier. Right. Especially when you're in a new place and and away from your, you know, the friendships I had established in the city and stuff, huh? Yeah. Yeah, just just an interesting, a lot of changes. But we we believed that that was the best thing to do for our family. And I feel like it all worked out. Really did. And I do feel like I am exactly where I should be because being back home has informed my art greatly. Like when I was saying I didn't know what to paint. Eventually, I figured it out because I just started painting what I know best. Yeah. Yeah, that was the water that I had grown up on. And it's just mean like the response I've had from people. They really love that series. Oh, yeah. Now I'm at a point where I've done I don't know how many of them I've done. It's it's around 25 of them. And I'm ready to I'm ready to mix it up a bit. So yeah, it's kind of cool to be successful in something like that and then know that I sort of have that as my fallback but and then but I'm always wanting to try new things. So yeah, and I'm at right now yeah. So is that where the water colors start to come in a bit like you're just sort of testing out what else he can do and yes, so I'm trying to figure wrote that does have a lot to do with just like incorporating my practice into my life and trying to be more efficient. Because I've never really been able to involve my kids in the studio too much. I have two really active boys. I tried I really did try to to just be casual about it and set them up and but yeah, my oldest was could not sit still he'd get into the the worst things, you know, like climbing the walls. So and I didn't want to say no, I didn't want to say no all the time, right. So we kind of avoided being in the studio too much. earlier on. Now I am learning what they prefer. I have to set my my oldest seven year old he has to be set up with an easel and he takes my light and he sets it up. But he's he's very short lived though. Like he'll pay it for about maybe 10 minutes and then that's it. And then he's gone and he hasn't cleaned up and and then my five year old is on the floor like still like rubbing the paint into the broken paper. Like he gets really into it. Yeah. And then everyone's gone. And it just gets busy. So yeah. Lots of having boys Hey, yeah. The the watercolor like that medium. It was sort of a magical thing. I took a water color course, online during the pandemic from John Hartman, who is a huge artists here in Canada. And luckily, he's local. Yeah, I actually know his his niece's here, I played volleyball with them growing up. And so there's like a bit of a connection there. He had never met me though. And I took this class online, and I've taken many, like several art classes, this one was just different. And it something clicked. And he, I think grew up similar to me, has like, a very special appreciation for the land, and just just this unique corner of the world, right. And he's he's obviously very into nature and all of the animals and all of the patterns and and he's been very, very successful here. So the local gallery got him to teach this class. I took it from him. And it just seemed to make sense for me as well, the way that he was taking his watercolor kit out to the islands if he would go like by canoe or kayak or whatever. And so I decided to prepare like a waterproof backpack, prep all of the paper and, and then I discovered these incredible, this incredible paint company where the paints made on Manitoulin Island. It's actually five hours north of us. Yeah, but it just felt so right because they're very focused on producing plastic free. Like the pigments are almost a lot of them are sourced locally on Manitoulin Island, and then they use tree sap, local honey, all of these things as like their binders, and it's just completely natural paints. So I feel good about going out and like washing my brush in the lake. Yes, water and then using the natural paints that she's made, and it's just amazing. So that's such an incredible connection isn't a lot. That's just amazing. Beautiful. Yeah, because they really do care about that as well. Like I am painting about my connection with the bay and then using things that are made here to create the work is yeah, it just feels really right. So I was really excited about that. And I'm getting better at being more consistent and remembering that backpack it was just always ready to go. Yeah, I'm not the most organized person so it's taken a few years for me to get myself sorted like that and know that I have to prep a few things to sit to enable myself to create in those busy situations and our children are old enough now that it's not so crazy to have my husband watch them while I take half an hour to paint so yeah, yeah. Good day The pandemic really pushed me to want to explore locally more, as it I'm sure has for many people, I love traveling, my husband loves traveling, we really miss it. And so this island hopping culture that exists here, I didn't do that growing up, my parents were always working. And I was always boating and working at marinas and like very familiar on a boat, but not really exploring. There's a lot of public islands that you can, that you can go and have a picnic for the day and, and they're really amazing and really rugged and picturesque and challenging. A lot of people don't do it because there's you could hit rocks everywhere where your boat here, like, just beneath the surface. So for some people, it's a bit too risky, or expensive to be hitting rocks with your boat. Oh, yeah, I have this level of comfort with the bay and boating. I used to to live and work on the water for many years. So yeah, it's a really. Yeah. That's incredible. Oh, just hearing your story. It just I don't want to say it sounds perfect, because nothing's perfect. But just the way things have come together for you just sounds just ideal to so. Yeah. And I, I knew that there was just something about this place when I traveled because when I, when I first traveled after university, I went on my own, I did a solo backpacking trip in Australia. And that led to many other trips to different countries until I went back to college for paramedics, and then it kind of halted the traveling and the art and everything. But now yeah, I'm coming back to it. And I didn't know how much I missed it here until I returned with my kids. And I felt like I could almost breathe easier just being surrounded by nature and the trees and I honestly didn't know how much I missed it though. Because I'm pretty happy wherever I go. I truly appreciate the city. I loved living downtown Toronto. The excitement of being a paramedic downtown was amazing. You know, I was happy I thought but I think I am much happier here. So but yeah, we also don't know, I guess we never really think in forever. My husband and I are adventurous. And he's from the east coast of Canada. So we we go there often and that's pretty amazing out there too. But when he talks about it, I I don't know if I could move there. Right. It's mostly just leaving Georgia and bay that would stress me out. So yeah. Anyway, I'm really enjoying being here right now. And it's yeah, it's inspired me so much. And gotten me on a pretty amazing foot with my art career so far. I wanted to mention, I'll put a link for people to have a look at the way that you paint the water. Right. It's just It looks like a photo. Like it looks so real. And I actually paint properly. I just mess around with painting. So I'm really interested in painting because I can't do it. I love like zooming in like how do you do that? Like it just looks real? Just beautiful. And yeah, that series that you mentioned before. Just all those pieces that just like you feel like you could literally dive into the paintings. They're just so real. So yeah, I just love them. Yeah, all right. First of all, I think that anybody can paint. It's, it is a practice, right? You just, you get better as you do it more or not necessarily even better, because I'm trying to get back to like a loose lit a looseness actually, that I had before I did these water pieces, and they have progressively gotten more realistic. Which wasn't really my intention. It's just I seem to be getting pickier with it right. And I, I can't leave it alone, like I just go further and further and further with them as I do more of those pieces. So yeah, I get very intense about them. So I honestly just think it's the amount of layers. And I will just keep painting until I'm happy with it right. And, and I do paint from a photo for the water pieces, because they wanted, it's just something I always wanted to try. I had tried painting several things. And it's interesting, because when I look back at my early paintings, like way before I knew I would pursue this as a career, the water element was there. And a lot of a lot of my pieces not not in exactly the same style, but it was there. And yeah, there's just something about it that feels like home to me and nostalgic. And I feel like the water here is very unique to other places in the world I've been. It's beautiful in all of these different places, too. But there's something very special to me about it here. And I think just with the response I've had, it seems like people that are cottagers here really identify with it too. Yeah, they're really drawn to it. Yeah, there's something about when you walk down on the dock, because we have a floating dock. And which is different from a lot of places in the world. We don't have tides. So yeah, when you go down to the dock, you feel like you're so surrounded by water in a in a really unique way to it's different from working on a beach, or Yeah. I don't know, you know, all the different ways that you can be next to the water. There's something very unique about floating on air. Like you're connected to it straight away, like you're already part of it. You can feel the move, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and I don't get that feeling all the time. It's usually when I've been away for a while and then I go down. You're standing there and it's kind of overwhelming. I remember coming back after being away for almost a year, right. So yeah, it's pretty cool. I'm very lucky. You've mentioned the children a little bit in passing. Tell us a little bit more a bit about your boys. Yeah, they're loved them. Um, so my oldest is Charlie, he's seven. And then my younger boy is five and his name is Van. And I also have a Newfoundland puppy as well. Oh. He, we had we had another one before him and unfortunately lost him through the pandemic. So this is a COVID puppy. Do it again. And yeah, very, very active household. It always has been. But it suits it suits myself and my husband. We are not good at sitting at home. We're extremely adventurous. So and now we're taking our kids along with us on those adventures. They are learning to drive the boat. They are there in Forest School as well once a week, which I love. So they're just they're super resilient kids like they go out in that minus 20 degree weather the entire day at school. And then I'll pick them up and I was so you know, I'm always a little worried about their hands and feet. And then they'll tell me that they were too hot. So because I put a sweater on them very particular layering system Man, you, you know, the types of clothes you have to put on the kids to do that sort of thing but love it. And yeah, we're outdoors, hours and hours a day like, we don't stay indoors very much. And that was I always wanted to raise them like that. But then the pandemic pushed me to turn to nature even more way to deal with the anxieties and stuff that would come up with all of this. My oldest son got very anxious with like the first sort of flip flopping locked down back to school, that kind of stuff. It was really hard on him, but at the time, he was five years old. So yeah, I find five is a really interesting age to be dealing with complicated things like that. So yeah, it's like the brains not quite developed enough to make sense of it, but they can understand quite a lot. So it's really hard for them to, you know, comprehend things and deal with them. Yeah. So he definitely has some OCD. Which, you know, we we haven't taken them to get diagnosed, because we were a little bit worried about that, at that age to like, what the effect of actually going and getting a diagnosis. Just, we just wanted to see if we could deal with it on our own first, and it did get a bit scary, for sure. But he's doing amazing now and we've figured out some coping strategies. We're lucky with the internet, right? You can do so much research on your own. Yeah, we were open to if we felt like we couldn't handle it, I had the name and number of someone to call, but got through it. And you just never know when it's when things like that are gonna creep up on you with the kids. Challenging, challenging time. Yeah, that's for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. Ellie, you mentioned that being a paramedic was good at sort of allowing you just to go with the flow and things are unexpected things change? Do you think that's sort of helped you being a parent in the way that things are always changing unexpected things? And for sure, yeah, absolutely. I think that was sort of in my personality anyway, and, and why I enjoyed being a paramedic so much. And, but yeah, like that experience, I knew that I would never regret becoming a paramedic, even if it was not the be all end all of what I was going to do, you know, having those skills, I would never regret it. It's pretty cool. And I my style, honestly, was to not worry about the call details. Because you get when you get a call, you get a bunch of details. And most of the time, it's completely different. When Yeah, when you arrive. Yeah. Somebody on the phone? Yeah, people in emergencies can't describe. Can't describe what's going on accurately most of the time. Yeah. So you'd like to discard that. Basically, when you get there you make your own assessments and work from that sort of thing. Yeah, I just tried to always have a really open mind. Honestly, though, my husband is an incredible paramedic, and he has a completely different approach. He actually goes through all of the possibilities, and all of the protocol protocols for all of those possibilities. So he's the one practicing it all in his mind before he walks in. So he knows the dosage and everything medications, whereas I I was different in that. Yeah, I would more roll with it. Because it's it's dangerous to get tunnel visioned. Especially in that job, right. Yeah. So yeah. And I think that has reflected In my life as a parent, for sure, you learn pretty quickly that as soon as you get the routine going, it changes. Prizes and, and your, your children usually turn out very, very to be very different personalities. So yeah, it's it's pretty cool. Something really neat about my oldest son, the one that had all of that anxiety. He's I think it's because he's such an empath we've learned, he picks up on everything right, no matter how much we were trying to keep our cool at the beginning of all of it. Everybody was holding their breath and watching the news too much. And yeah, it was. It was terrifying. So And I honestly just snapped back into paramedic mode. I was not thinking about art at all. Yeah, yeah. And I was almost feeling guilty that I got out of that profession. Like before this happened. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because this is just so huge. It's like something that you prepare for, and you hope never happens. But yeah, it was happening. And my son, yeah, he just picks up on everything. Even when you don't know that. It's like that you're stressed out or you're depressed, or whatever it is. So yeah, things kind of fall apart when I get when mom gets super stressed or overwhelmed. And then I start seeing issues in my kids with their anxiety. So he keeps me in check. I have to take care of myself and keep a balance and not forget to get back to exercising when I can and all of those things. Or yeah, I find we have issues. So huh. That's it if mom's not happy. It's challenging, but I really appreciate that about him. So I'm super lucky, right? I'm at home with him. I don't have to leave the house to go to work. We made some tough decisions to put me in this position. But so I know I'm very very lucky. Some people aren't as fortunate right. And life is tough. It's sometimes impossible to get out of debt for a lot of people now so that's easy. Yeah, so I really just appreciate Yeah, I'm able to do and be at home with them and be super in tune with my kids absolutely YEAH. I just wanted to ask just on that when you're talking about the, the pandemic Did you ever consider thinking I need to go back and help like, did you ever think or I'm I'm a paramedic? I can I can help with it's yeah, um, um, I think it crossed my mind. But so yeah, I was feeling guilty, but I know I didn't have the urge to walk away from the art that I had yet into and protecting my family. I sure applied it in all of my conversations with friends. You know, like talking through it with people. Then like new connections that I made helping friends with anxiety The stuff like that. And just like explaining things in like a medical way was really helpful. Like we we obviously could grasp what was going on in a different way from a lot of other people, which was scary actually. It's like you knew you knew exactly what was happening. And that was a little bit too much. Honestly sitting there thinking, why aren't we doing what New Zealand is doing? Like, why are we not locking everything down right away? Like what is taking so long? And there were real repercussions because of that, but but nobody really knows. Right? So. Yeah, it's yeah, that's the thing. They're all making decisions. On the fly. Basically, there's no book about how to deal with this. It's never really happened. Before your best. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But on that, New Zealand's done amazing. They're still not letting Australians back in. Like, that's how good they're going. They're awesome. I know. It's a different way. And yeah, it's hard to say what's best. But yeah, that's the thing. And every country is like, obviously, geographically different challenges, whatever. But yeah, I do have a lot of respect for New Zealand and the wonderful Prime Minister, she's pretty cool. changing tack slightly, in terms of there's a topic that I love to talk about two mums about mum guilt. And I'm not sure if that's a term that. I mean, I find the Australians know what I'm talking about. Is that something that you're familiar with over there in Canada, the mum guilt? Yeah. I definitely believe that it exists for sure. And, as I've explained the way, the changes we've made in our life, and the fact that I can work from home and pivot whenever needed to put my children first. That sort of like mitigates that a lot, right? I think I've experienced mom guilt in small doses, and then almost used it to help guide my decisions with my life. Because I want to avoid feeling like that, of course. And I'm lucky that I was able to find a way to avoid it a lot, right? Yeah. Yeah, the first time I think I felt it was honestly when I was pregnant. I was nesting and working on the house, and I fell off of a ladder when I was seven months pregnant, I think, yeah. I just remember sitting in the bathtub after feeling like horrible. I had a very hard time adjusting while being pregnant, to not being able to do certain things. Just because I really independent I pride myself on being a very strong woman that way, you know, yeah, ask for help. to a fault. Yeah, so that was the first time I felt really horrible. Like, that was a dumb decision to be doing that in the first place. And then, and then I'm trying to think, oh, so I had my first child. And then we did have a plan. Like, I didn't think I was going to continue doing the shift work. We sort of knew there was going to be an end eventually. But I did go back to work when my son was one year old, but I went back pregnant because they're only they're 19 months apart. Yep. So I went back wasn't going back to the road. I luckily got to go back to modify duties. So much safer, safer environment. A little more mundane and not the type of stuff I like to do. But yeah, so it was like an eight hour day instead of the 12 to 15 hour days that I would normally work. And that was really tough. I finding a nanny that I felt comfortable with, and then leaving my child with the nanny, even though I had put a lot of effort in had, I think I fired two before we settled on the one that we kept. Yeah. And yeah, it was really tough to leave him with her. But eventually, we got used to it. And I knew there was an end in sight. And then I went off the road again, you know, when I was, I can't remember how many weeks. But I just didn't want to go back to that. I didn't like that feeling. I personally didn't see the point of having kids if I couldn't be with them all the time. Right. So. But, yeah, I'm so fortunate that we could make it work that way. Right? It's not that way for everybody. So sometimes there, those opportunities don't exist. And my husband, I was able to really lean on him for a couple years to support us while I was not making any money as an artist. So I just started making more financial goals and wanting to relieve him a little bit. But we made it a good couple of years without too much pressure on it. Yeah, pretty hard to create meaningful art. If you're worried about the money. Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? You just, you'd be really constrained and like, I've got to, I've got to do this. So I can sell it. And I've got to, you know, you'd have all this pressure on yourself. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how I would do that. Yeah, it would be such a distraction. Right. Hmm. Let's see. Yeah, it's almost like it wouldn't feel like a creative space. It just feel like a job like you had you just have to. Yeah, produce stuff. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Yeah, no good. The other thing I love to chat to moms about is identity, like how you how you see yourself shifts in as you become a mother and from what you just mentioned, is that like, you're started when you were pregnant. You know, you're the challenge of having to adjust how you do things. So then when you actually had your children, did that change? Did the shift keep? Was the shift already made sort of thing, like we able then to adjust into motherhood? Because you've already sort of started to change. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. I think the shift so I physically, like I was always very athletic and doing kind of adventurous things like that, you know, like when I traveled a, I did the skydiving in the bungee, and the the only thing I I was too nervous to do is hang gliding and Brazil. myself with run off a cliff like that. So yeah, I've always been a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and I've had a lot of injuries, or my last major injury was while I was in paramedic College, and that scared me because it threatened my career. So I I I've shifted big time just being more careful with my body. And then yes, as as I was pregnant that was really difficult. Adjusting just asking for help with anything lifting wise was I left the hardware store falling once because I lifted a how many gallons is that? I think it's like 18 liters. Yeah, like the big thing of primer I lifted into into the cart and then felt obviously some major pain. And then I had to ask somebody to put that into my vehicle at the end. And and they were like, how did you get it in the car? So just stuff like that was so hard on me. But yeah, I'm so obviously I adjusted and it's okay, and I realized I needed to be careful. And just not taking as many risks right like you have kids to protect you Yeah, I find her a lot more careful like that. I'm always wanting to do the adventurous stuff and my husband. It makes him a little more nervous with kids around water and things like that. So we're good balance. Yeah, yeah. Yep. But I feel like I really worked on like figuring out who I was. Before kids, I was really lucky to do the traveling and several jobs, right. I really played around and tried to figure it out. And I thought I had figured it out with the paramedic thing and. And then, yeah, leaving that behind was a huge, felt like a sacrifice. Being a mother, it felt like I was giving up something that I had worked so hard for. And I didn't really see that coming. I did, but it didn't, you know, it didn't actually happen yet. So I was a little upset for sure. But, ya know, like, I think when things get tough like that, I think just thinking about what will be best for your kids always helps make the decision a little easier, like what direction to go. That's the way that we approach it. And I have never regretted making a decision based on that. Yeah, that's really well said, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You always have to think about yourself, too. But I'm personally happier when I put my kids first. So. And I'm getting better at balancing those things. But when they're really, really young, yeah, I was. All over it all, I was pretty crazy with all the homemade food and schedule and trying to mix it up enough that when we do mess with their schedule, they're not devastated. And, you know, trying to just do everything as responsibly as possible. Give him a sort of taste of life, I suppose that things don't always go to plan. And, you know, you can be adaptable. And mean, you can you can, you're allowed to get annoyed if things don't work out. But it's not like the end of the world. Like he can give back things. And that's really important. Sorry, sorry, I think kids in general have just proven how much they can handle and how resilient they are through this pandemic, right? It's just crazy. Yeah, depends on what country you're in, I think but we have done the online schooling I think four times. It has gotten easier, but which is amazing. That the last time it was kind of knew the routine and I wasn't as upset, right? Like I was really hard on myself with the online school. First, or Yeah, the first time it was very stressful. And I felt very down on myself. That's I guess that could be slotted in as mom guilt, right? Like not I eventually learned that I had to decide when we just had to call it quits for the day and to not allow myself to feel guilty that it wasn't working on the computer and we're just going outside and blowing it off because it was easier because they're in kindergarten at the time. So junior and senior kindergarten so like, I don't I didn't believe they should be on the computer anyway, but I also didn't want them to fall too far behind. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. More reasonable commitments. In my mind, I was like if we do it three days a week out of the five then I'm happy or if it's a bad day just just stopped right so yeah. hoping it's over, gosh, I know. In terms if you're making and I know your children, age wise, this might not apply but is it important for you, for them to see what you're doing and how you contribute? doing? Absolutely, it's important to me that they see what I'm doing and my process. Actually, just recently, I've had a lot of really awesome opportunities landed in my lap. And and I'm just trying to figure out how I'm going to do it all, because I think they're gonna stay in school. And I think we can plan for this right. So I've actually just turned my dining room wall into my new studio, so that I cannot get away from the project that I'm working on. Because when I'm walking by it constantly, I'm just subconsciously like working on it in my head. Right? Yeah. And I think it's really cool and exciting for them to go to school and come home and then see what it has changed. Yeah, it's, and it does inspire them. And I am seeing them try to copy things that I paint, it took, it took a while, like, you have to know that you have to be patient with some kids, like they're not going to just show interest in. And Charlie, my oldest showed so much resistance at first, so I just didn't push it. And then all of a sudden, in the last year, he is a big drawer, like an amazing drawer. And like his composition is on point. It's crazy. And he would draw his emotions through the panoramic. That's kind of home with these drawings. And with very, like, all different emotions on all of the people's faces, and it was a little bit sad. Of course. Yeah. His anxiety. But yeah, so his drawing skills have are just amazing. And then he has recently been trying to like copy certain pieces that he sees of mine. Yeah. And then they're both really giving their opinions on, on art. Like, yeah, on like, which paintings they like, and my little one van will always he's really into the water paintings and Hill. Yeah, he just offers his opinion on his favorites. And, and I have two really great friends I met online in the last year as well. And we're always sharing our work and critiquing each other and pushing each other along. Yeah. And sometimes, like, they'll see the little video clip and, and, you know, chime in on what they think of their work as well. It's really well, that's lovely. I love I love involving them in the process. Yeah. So even though we are just starting to do some collaborative, like paint, paint days and stuff and trying to do like Saturday mornings, there's a little online class that I'm trying to get all of us set up and I set them up exactly with all the things that I have. And I think that's really cool. But mostly, I think that they are part of my process. Not in the physical art making but like the inspiration side. Because reliving my childhood with my kids has been amazing. And definitely coming home and the nostalgia of like this place was sort of the initial inspiration and it's and yeah, now experiencing it alongside my kids and having all these adventures it's really special. So I'm trying to capture that in some of my future paintings. Yes, yeah, I really like to to give them that freedom in nature like as long as they're safe to explore and like I find they're just so confident because of it. You know? Yeah, it's really cool to see Yeah, absolutely. I love the way you describe though you really reliving your childhood three children. That's just Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, it reminds me when you say reminds me of my oh me when I when I describe that because I actually think I'm trying to provide them with sort of the same experience that that she provided with me. I purposely avoid driving anywhere I make them walk incredible distances. You know, we're like always picking flowers and, and just really getting into things like that. And that's that's what she did with me. And I remember sometimes finding it annoying, you know, when I was an older child care thing, stopping at the side of the road to pick flowers and stuff and she's taking like photos of my brother sister and I and I And now we appreciate it so much and, and all of those flowers and stuff remind me of her. So yeah, I'm just hoping that they remember that when they're an adult as well, right? I just, yeah. That's just beautiful. I'll go tingly now. Lovely. Similarly, like I had my, my Nana was real, it was very, very close to her. And she wasn't musical, but she was the one that bought us. My sister and I are first like organ like the double keyboard organ is fun to sort of encourage us to play and she passed away when I was 10. So and she's never met, obviously never met my children, but she inspires so much of my music and decisions that I make. And, you know, it's just incredible that someone who's not here has just informed our lives so much. It's just lovely. And yeah, it's the people that are really present with you. Not just going through the motions there. They put in sort of the hard work and, and, and the tough love. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. You say that. I interviewed a lady from she's Hungarian. But she now she lives in Austria. And it's, this is really funny. I have these runs of people that I talk about the same things with like, it goes through phases. And so the last thing I spoke to, and you have talked about the same thing about a significant grandmother, who had such an impact on them, and the same thing that that tough love like this, this grandma would be like, you're not playing that right. Like she's a flute played, played again. Not like that, play it again, play it again. And at the time, she's like, Oh, come on, like this is, you know, you felt like she was she was punishing her. But she's like, now I understand why she was doing it. And it's made me who I am and all this sort of stuff. And yeah, she passed away early as well. So all these people that is mighty Yeah. You talked about your watercolor that you you sort of adventuring into and including your children in your work. What sort of other thoughts have you got about the future for your art practice? Was it sort of hinting? Yeah, I have a lot of really exciting projects that I can't even really, they're not, you know, developed enough that I can talk about them yet. Yes, you're sort of man, it's only February. And the year is planned. Well for commissions, and it's just amazing. But there is one really big exciting thing that I'm starting, that I haven't talked about yet, but I do feel ready. And it is about everything in my life. It's just all making sense and coming together. And I guess I've always been waiting for the right idea like business, I always consider different business ideas. And so yeah, the last two years, we did a lot of the adventure, boating, checking out all these islands that I didn't even know existed. It's just crazy that it was like a 20 minute boat ride away and I had never discovered that. And we ended up purchasing a new boat in November. That would be suitable for this idea that I have. I'm going to start what's going to be called compete with me excursions. And I'm going to invite small groups of artists to go out with me on the boat, and I'm going to take them to paint plein air, meaning outdoor painting I'm just because a lot of people that live in this area actually don't have access to the water and the islands, and it's right there. But they've either never been on a boat or never really been on a tour in the area. Because there aren't a lot of there's just no businesses that enable that. Like there was one cruise boat from Midland that takes you on a couple hour cruise or whatever. But yeah, so this is going to be more of a, like a private tour, and we're going to select a destination based on the weather just like I always do, we really have to pay attention to weather. Yeah, because it can, if there's any chance of a major storm, I don't want to risk it. Even though I, I enjoy it. But yeah, so I have to upgrade my certification to be able to take this boats gonna be able to take 10 people. But for now, I'll be limited to a group of six people, which will be really nice. Yeah, I'm just trying to get the business end of all of that organized so that I can start advertising and start booking some dates. Trying to involve that in my my summer schedule with my, you know, my husband's schedule, the kids being home, all of that stuff. But I what I wanted is just to be on the water more, as much as possible, because for many years, I worked for my dad doing marine contracting. So like a lot of barging and doing the building of those cottages on these Rock Islands. And I just loved working on the water, you know, boating to work. And then it was very physical work. But it was amazing to be outside all day on the water. And then when you're on the water every day like that, like you experience, the different weather and kind of like magical things in nature, the wildlife that you see, sometimes it's just amazing. And you don't, you don't get as many opportunities like that if you're not consistently out there. So I feel like it's going to really support my own art practice. Yeah, I'm gonna get to do my little daily painting, even if I'm trying to instruct others and not really doing my own work. I'm just out there and fired. i It's like my favorite place to be. So I'm trying to position myself there. You know, while supporting myself financially, it'll support. it'll inspire my work, I'm sure. And we need a little more like community with the there's a lot of artists in the area. But it's a small town. Yep. You know, and so these kinds of things are needed. And I did one test run with a group of friends. Yeah. And it just, it was amazing. And like, just listening to everyone the ideas that were flowing and the chatter it was a group of women and they were just loving it right. It was very cool. And I've actually seen sort of the inspiration from that day in a in most of them like a lot of them started these new projects and stuff and I think I think a day like that can just give somebody an extra nudge something new so yeah, just and then my, my paramedic background makes me feel confident to like take care of people. Yeah, in you know, a wild terrain. There's going I actually did a photo shoot on one of the islands I'm going to use and we pulled up with the photographer and there was a bear on the island to eating berries. And I was like are you serious? The time is right we need to do this photo shoot and there was a bear there and we just sort of paused for a couple of minutes and I checked with sorry there's major stomping upstairs Yeah, I just checked in with my friend and the photographer like are you guys still into this because I definitely was and the bear took off to the other end of the island is very small island and they were they were game and we went on the island we we obviously didn't go to the other end where the bear went. But we still did it because I don't know I know there's no for sure but there you could just tell we weren't bothering the bear. The bear didn't want anything to do with us. Yeah, it just eaten some berries. He was full. We didn't need to eat some kind of crazy so yeah, I would never, I, you know, if I see the group, I'm not going to go on the island. But personally, I take some more risks I think than other people would be willing to take. Just when I have those kinds of experiences, I feel I feel like it's like, a good omen or it's like good luck. It's like a sign from the universe. Right? So Oh, yeah. And it really made it memorable. Yeah. You couldn't like try and position the bear in the background? So a couple of shots of it, I'll definitely post them at some point. Oh, that's so cool. I love that. It was neat. Excited to start that, a lot of organization, obviously, but yeah, like, you know, paperwork, kind of, yeah. booking system, all of those things, but I'm just going to try and take it easy for the first year and, and just see the interest and stuff. I'm feel very confident about it, because there aren't many things available like this here. But yeah. And then, and then I've offered to be like a volunteer steward to keep an eye on some of these islands for conservation purposes. And oh, cool. Because they get a lot of people to just do that people that are cottagers to keep an eye on a particular island. And yeah, make sure people aren't leaving garbage behind and things like that. And, and it can extend into a major educational opportunity. Yeah, just to educate people how to enjoy it, but like in a zero footprint way. And yeah, be respectful of the Yeah, because yeah, that's the thing you said, there's like 3000 islands, like there'd be so many where no one would be able to actually, like people can't be everywhere. So that's a great thing to do. Yeah, so I just feel like tourism is going to become more of a thing up here. We're seeing some major booming with housing and stuff like that, right, as there is everywhere. But I yeah, I feel good about doing it in a responsible way. And I have a ton of experience here. And I just, I want people to respect it the same way that we do. We're out there all the time. But yeah. I would probably, you know, report to whoever is whoever owns the island or is responsible for the wildlife conservation. Like if we ever noticed an issue or something like that. So yeah, that's wonderful. And it's like you're you're you're passing on like you've got such a connection such a love the area and you're sort of ensuring that it's cared for and looked after for for the next generations. You know, yeah, it's, it's super important, right? Because I have been in those places in the world that the water is just almost and swimmable, it's so polluted. The microplastics in our lakes are actually are at a very high level. If you're paying attention to that kind of stuff, yeah, it's, it's already really bad. So hopefully, we can find a way to reverse some of that stuff. When you're talking about the wildlife before? What sort of other animals do you get up there? Yeah, so it's super unique here because of all of the rocks like the landscape and all of the islands. So there are I think there's a lot of I don't know enough about birds, but there are a lot of unique birds. There's a lot of marshland as well. And then we have very unique reptile aisles and master set a Massasauga rattler snake that is poisonous. So, like I grew up watching where you're walking for snakes just like in Australia. Oh, yeah, well, either that one. Yeah. So that's just normal to us it Yeah, it's hard for someone to get used to if that if they haven't grown up that way. But that's just part of it and you learn about them and they're not. They're not out like looking for you. They're very frightened of humans have. Absolutely yes. It's just something to be really careful of. And I think if you're educated on like, how to coexist with wildlife, then that's, that's the best way to be the rattlesnakes. Something super interesting is they actually protect the blueberry bushes. Oh, yeah. From being over picked and stuff. Like a lot of people won't go to the areas where there are all the wild blueberries because there are so many rattlesnakes there. I think originally it was to protect the berries from being over eaten by animals. But yeah, yeah. So um, but there are so many other types of snakes as well. Just that that is our only poisonous snake. Lots of birds of prey. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, you don't want to mess with an angry owl or something. Right. end We have pretty bad mosquitoes and things like that. But But yeah, it's it's pretty beautiful. I love very into nature. I that's what I focused on when I was a kid. Yeah. Sounds wonderful. I have a lot of fun with the kids with that stuff. We raised butterflies last summer. Yeah, right. Yeah, just stuff like that. So gosh, you're making me jealous. I want to go then. You'll have to come visit. I honestly have been inviting people to come visit my whole life. Right. And I have hosted a couple of friends like I drove to Toronto and, and brought them up for the day and took them on a boat ride just to show them. And I just Yeah, I love that. I'm actually going to start a business like this. And can invite especially I've made a lot of artists friends. I'm a part of a few communities online now. Yeah, took me a while I was too shy to like officially join any of them for many years. And then I felt ready and it's been amazing. Yeah, the connections I've made and I know some of them will come visit eventually. Paint together. Oh, that's awesome. Geez. I love that. Yeah, that's that's wonderful I was gonna ask you whereabouts Did you like do a big lap of Australia? Like where did you go to when you're over here? I started in Melbourne. I didn't I didn't go to where you live yet, but I Yeah, Melbourne. I went all the way up the coast, the East Coast. I was really lucky when I started. I stayed for two weeks with a friend. So we have friends here. She's Australian. He's Canadian. They ended up living here. And they are the ones that pushed me when I was considering it. I think I was thinking maybe three weeks. No. You need to go at least for three months. Yeah. It's turned into I think I booked an open ended ticket. Right. And it lasted eight months. Yeah. All the way up the East Coast. I did Fraser Island, you know through Whitsundays. I went all the way up to Cape Tribulation. Yeah. I never did the like the interior. Yeah, I didn't get to do that trip. But I flew over to Darwin, just there was just a layover. I didn't actually spend much time there. Although I really wish I could have and then I even did some of the West Coast. I stayed in Perth for a little while. And then I did more of a an organised tour of the West Coast, southwest coast. And in between there I also went to New Zealand and Southeast Asia and I did tomato planting. Do you know where Boeing is? Boeing? Which was typesetting? Um, it is. I'm trying to think if it's north of New South, I think it's near North. Oh boy. It's near Airlie Beach. Oh, yeah, yeah, Queensland. Yeah. It's where the film Australia was filmed. Yeah, right. Yeah. Here and they were looking for extras. Ah, yeah. And I it was, oh boy. It was a, I guess a bit of a risky situation. Like, somebody asked me if I'd ever Oh no, the guy that picked me up for the farm. asked me if I had ever seen Wolf Creek. Oh, God. That's a great that's a great stuff. Uh, he ended up being Canadian, which was great. Oh, and they had bought this hostile to ours. inland. I'm trying to think of Bowen was. I think Bowens coastal. Right. And then, yeah, so yeah, it is. It's right on the coast. Yeah. So two hours into the Outback, Bowen, and I worked on a tomato farm for five weeks. And it was called the bogey river Busch house. And such an amazing group of people that I met there. together first, most people were very broke. I spent every night at the bonfire on the like, dry riverbed. It was amazing. And I'm sure I will connect with some of those people. Eventually. They're all over the world. But yeah, it was a really cool experience. And we were all dreaming of going to Thailand because it was cheaper and, like, blew up into this massive trip. But yeah, that was one of the coolest experiences. And I got to see, like a true Aboriginal ceremony as well. Like, I didn't pay for it. We had a barbecue and oh, man, it was really amazing. Oh, that's so cool. You've seen more of Australia than what I have. I I haven't traveled enough of Canada, to be honest. So yeah. It's funny how that happens. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was the best place to start. Like traveling alone. It was it was awesome. Yeah. Did you sort of feel comfortable because we all spoke English. You know, English is our language. And we're in a court. We're a Commonwealth country. So you know, yeah. sort of feels really familiar. Pretty easy. That way, you know, not overly dangerous. Yeah. And you use the snake, so that's okay. Yeah. And I Yeah, exactly. If the watch for the spiders on the farms especially. Yes, that stuff didn't freak me out. Maybe because of where I'm from. Yeah. But oh, it was so beautiful. And I met the best people. And I was very lucky to have I don't know if they finished explaining that I stayed with the friend for two weeks initially, just outside of Melbourne. And then I just remember being ready to go on my own and the city and stayed in a hostel for the first time and, and I very quickly met a friend from Ottawa, Canadian. And he ended up being my travel partner through Thailand and stuff too. So yeah, I just made incredible friends. I was really lucky. I had a great time. And I don't know it's always timing, right? Oh, yeah. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Has my cat. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thanks again. It's been great. Yeah, I had so much fun. And thanks, sir. I'm just glad you found me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Megan Arlin US knitter and yarn dyer S1 Ep14 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts This week I welcome my first international guest to the show, Megan Arlin from Colorado Springs, USA. Megan is a small batch yarn dyer running Huck and Rae Fibre Studio, and a mother of 2. Megan grew up in a creative home, she was a mixed media artist, using graphites, coloured pencils and collaging, selling her art and has been into yarn since the age of 18, She now enjoys being able to chat to people all over the world and assist them in creating their ideal colours and textures. We chat about the importance of her having something that is just for her, the identity crisis that she experienced after the birth of her first child, and how much she loves being a part of the very supportive online knitting community. ** This episode contains discussions around post natal anxiety, generalised anxiety disorder and dysphoric milk ejection reflex** Connect with Megan on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/huckandraefiberstudio/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music used with permission Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. This week I welcome my first international guests to the show. Megan Ireland from Colorado Springs, USA. Megan is a small batch yarn Dyer running Huck and re fiber studio and a mother of two. Megan grew up in a creative home. She was a mixed media artist using graphites colored pencils and collaging. She sold her out and has been into yarn since the age of 18. She now enjoys being able to chat to people all over the world and assist them in creating their ideal colors and textures. This episode contains discussions around postnatal anxiety, General Anxiety Disorder, and dysphoric milk ejection reflex. Today, I'm really excited to welcome my very first international guest. Welcome, Megan, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. I am so excited to be on. Yeah, I think I need to change that this episode to be called The Art of Being a mom instead of that. Yeah, you know, Same Same difference. Yeah. So tell us about what you create. So I am the owner and Dyer behind hucking re fiber studio, which is a small batch, hand dyed yarn company. And we're located in Colorado Springs, Colorado, in the USA. So when you say small batch, what does that look like? What sort of quantities are you? Yeah, yeah. So it's it's basically one pan at a time. So basically, I die. Anywhere from like three to four skeins of yarn. At one time, you know, I can have multiple pans going, but I'm just really, really small batch. There's no large scale stuff going on here. Yeah, so that'd be quite labor intensive. I guess they still Yeah. If you're doing a lot and creating a new line or whatever. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It would just be quite full on to, to get it all done. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm my business is pretty, pretty new. So it's all pretty manageable right now. And great. So um, so yeah, it's good. So have you always been interested in like creating with with yarn like knitting or crocheting, things like that? Yeah. So my mom was a she, she didn't really knit much, but she wasn't like a weaver. She was she would like make, like little weep squares and put blankets together and stuff. She didn't know a little bit, but I kind of always had that around me. I wouldn't say that. I was always super interested in it until, um, I don't know. I was I was about 18. I think when I got into it, I actually do you guys have Michaels art and craft there? I don't think so. Okay, well, it's an art and crafts store here. And I worked there and my last few years of high school and I was like constantly around the yarn. And I was just like, I want to learn how to do something with this. So I kind of I kind of picked it up when I was 18. But I've always had it around me. How does the process actually work? Like what do you actually do to where do you get your yarn from and how do you sort of work through to create Yeah, so I I don't spin the yarn or anything like that i by just kind of like naked undyed skeins of yarn in bulk and then you know, different weights and different textures different I primarily, pretty much only dye animal fiber so I'm working with wool alpaca silk stuff like that. Yeah, and so I just I have I have all those bases and I kind of just, you know, use inspiration around me to create the colors that I want basically to go together and make pretty yarn. You call it fall over there your autumn. Have you just started autumn over there? Ah, it's not quite but we're getting there. We're at the tail end of summer. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I've noticed a lot of your colors now. You're moving into those beautiful oranges and burnt sort of colors. Yeah, those are my favorite. Yeah. All the fall colors are like jewel tones. I just, I'm really drawn to towards those colors. Yeah, for sure. So you take a lot of inspiration from what's happening around you in the world and yeah, I mean, Colorado I don't know if you know much about Colorado but it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Here we have we have all the Aspen's, do you know that asked? Hey a little bit yeah. We have lots of like color changes and stuff, you know where everything goes from green to yellow and orange and red and it's it's just really beautiful like this. This part of the country is is just stunning and it's very inspirational. color wise I actually discovered you through documentary Cooper's episode. Yes, yes. You're finding people. Yeah. I've talked to people in Australia like Melanie and I've talked to people in Germany like I've, I've actually talked to other yarn dyers in Germany. Yeah. So like, all over the world. So. So it's, it's incredible. You're brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think probably because you, you're creating, like this small batch you can specialize in, I guess what people the demand for what people want, you can turn it around really quickly to if someone says this, this beautiful, whatever shade of green or whatever, you can go Righto and make it. Yeah, and it makes it really personalized to I suppose because you can you can talk to people about what they want. And, and crap. Yeah, I had, I had a gal the other day, who, who messaged me, and you know, is asking, like, if I thought these colors would go together, and you know, so so it is it's really fun and to to just like help people curate, you know, the the ideas that they have in their head for the yarn for their projects. So it's like, they're getting like my little bit of art to put into their art, which is just so special. Yeah. And then seeing what they what your product turns into. Yes. 100% The coolest thing about it to see to see what other people do with yarn. Yeah, I was really taken by the way that Melanie, she described how she paints but then she uses she knits and crochets and then includes that with their painting. And that's like, obviously, I'm not from an art background at all, but that I was like, wow, I would never thought to do that. So I guess it'd be cool for you to see. Yeah, we're Yeah. Your your products in up? Yeah, exactly. So cool. Yeah, it might not be what you sort of might imagine it might you think might become a teddy or something. But it might become you know, something? Completely. Yeah, yeah. The stuff that Melanie does is so cool and unique in and it's just really cool. Family, so tell us about your children. Yeah. So my husband's name is Jeff and we have been married for going on six years now. We got married in October 2015. I think I think that's right. And we have two children. We have a four year old son. He's my oldest. His name is Finn. And then we have a three year old daughter and her name is Sophia. S. V. A. Yeah, it's a it's an unusual name. Is that does that have any origins in that? So it's, it's Swedish. We were we were originally leaning towards name naming her Freya. But we want I just came across that name span and fell right in love with it. So that's what we ended up doing. So it's a beautiful way. Thank you. Thank you. I work in childcare. So I come across a lot of nice. Oh, I'm sure you do. Yes. A lot of unique name that that's a beautiful name. Thank you. Yeah, sorry, how old? She is three. So so my kids are they're 16 months apart. Yeah. Right. So they're very, very close. And he is how does that go? Do they get on? Well, they say do they actually really do. I mean, they're kind of At the age right now, where they bicker a lot, but but they just adore each other and the it's it's good, they play together and it's great, really slowly. So how do you fit in creating around having two little ones? Yeah, so basically, I, my husband and I kind of came to an agreement that I could have three days a week after he gets off of work because he once COVID happened and stuff he started working from home and he still is working from home. So basically, when he gets off of work three days a week, I get to go downstairs and do do my thing. So he takes over all the all the childcare and stuff and that's then that's how it works and it works well. Let's cry so you can just blissfully go down and create Yeah, I know that everyone's fine upstairs. Yeah, I mean, I can I can hear what's going on. So if I need to, I can run up there. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, you're doing you're dying before you had your children. No, I was not. So I was a mixed media artist basically, pretty much my whole life. In high school, I did a lot a lot of mixed media art, I sold my art I got a scholarship. So basically, my medium was like graphite colored pencil. And in the I throw in other things like newspaper clippings or magazine clippings, yarn, sometimes that type of stuff. But no, I wasn't ever doing really anything with yarn dyeing until after I had my kids. So do you do do you still do your your other kind of out of touch? Now I really I really don't very much. So kind of when I got into college, like my kind of my art kind of stopped. I really, I got focused in on like, I was kind of like weighing whether I wanted to pursue art or whether I wanted to do something else. And I I ended up pursuing health care. And so I actually worked in health care for 12 years I Alzheimer's and dementia patients for six years. And then I did hospice for six years. Oh, wow. Yeah. So um, so I I mean, I was knitting during that time that but I really wasn't I wasn't really doing art you know, it had it had all kind of kind of dropped off. So so really, I don't I don't do it too much anymore at all. Sometimes Sometimes I'll draw or do watercolors something like that, but not not much. Yeah, for sure. It's the the drawings got the center stage at the way right. So do you have other mums over there that are sort of in a similar boat where they're juggling? Doing they're creating with young kids, you have a sort of support network around you. I really don't. You know, that's I've kind of been alone in that type of way, I guess you could say, I actually don't even have that many mom friends that are in the same place as me. Like, I have friends that have older kids. I have one friend in particular who is who was kind of in the same, you know, toddlerhood area as me but she I actually just taught her how to knit so so she now she's on that boat but but yeah, not Not really. I actually most of the community that I have I I got online. So I the community that I that I have online to through knitting and fiber fiber art is you know, those are people that that I guess I can relate to, in that sense, you know, there's definitely other moms and stuff like that in that world. But I but I don't have anybody directly that I'm in contact with. Um, in my day to day life that is kind of in the same boat as me. Yeah. Do you find that challenging at all? I do a little bit. Yeah, it's, it is tough because I actually don't even have any family around at all. So it's kind of just us. And, and yeah, so so it is. It's it. It felt very lonely until I was able to like, kind of engage with the community online. So that's been wonderful for me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Because yeah, even if you don't have that, you know, physical support. But yeah, having people that you can relate to that you can have conversations we've had so important, isn't it? Yes, it is. Absolutely. And particularly at the moment, I'm not sure how you guys are going over there now. But with all the COVID stuff, like not being able to see people anyway, having to be Yeah, and things like that. Yeah, guys, all out of that. Now, where are you? Oh, so so we're not in lockdown at all. In fact, not not just a whole lot of people are wearing a ton of masks or anything anymore here. So you know, we I think there's a high vaccination rate, but I'm not 100% sure about all that type of stuff. But anyway, yeah. So so we're not locked down or anything like that. I know that the like, Delta variant is pretty busy making a comeback and everything. So I don't know how help the winter looks for for us. But But yeah, we've been kind of back to normal, I would say, you know, where we can go to restaurants and all that type of stuff. So oh, that's a good. Yeah, the only place that you like have to wear a mask is if you're going into medical places. So yeah. Which makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah, does. Absolutely. It's we've been living in crazy times. Oh, my gosh. Do you still work in healthcare? Now? I don't. So when I got pregnant, you know, it was always the plan for me to be a stay at home mom. And so yeah, I worked up until I my last month in in, I was doing hospice. And and then, you know, then I was a stay at home mom, you know, and I guess we had planned on me getting back into healthcare and everything at some point, but after being out of it for a while, I realized, like, I cannot go back to health care, because it was actually a little bit traumatizing. You know, it's kind of like after, you know, it's like, you're in it, you're in in the battle. And then you get out of it, and you're able to process it. I mean, like, I had so many people that I loved and cared about and you know, and I was caring for them during their death, you know, and so 12 years of that was a little bit traumatizing for me. And so, yeah, so I was like, you know, although it was very fulfilling. And I'm thankful that I did it. I don't ever want to go back into the healthcare field. And that's, that's just that for sure. And particularly now with COVID Like, I don't think if you had your choice you certainly you wouldn't put yourself in that exposure and the danger and having young family now yeah, look on a on a separate note, I totally I completely admire what you've done with hospice of dementia I'm I'm got a complete admiration and gratitude. I did home health care to when I was hospital because where I live, I might the city that I live in is quite large, but the cities around us are a lot smaller. It's a lot more like farmland and stuff. And so So yeah, I would go out I would go out to houses and stuff too. And, and yes, like palliative care and hospice is 100% of blessing but like, but yeah, it's it's hard mentally. Yeah, for sure. So yeah. So you said you would you wouldn't eating at that stage. Was that something you were doing to sort of switch off To forget, days, I guess Yeah, I mean, knitting, knitting has always been a source of like, like to help with anxiety or you know, any of that type of stuff. It's like, you just yeah, you kind of just, it's something that you're doing that you focus in on and, and knitting is just so awesome. In that way, you know, you can just knit and knit and knit mindlessly. And it's, it's really wonderful. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's, it's repetitive and you can get lost in it. And it's meditative, almost like you consumed by, yes, you're doing and you're using your hands. So you know, your whole body is involved. And my Nana used to knit she used to sit and watch the telly and just gonna click, click, click, click, click. Yeah. She tried to teach us and I remember kind of doing the thing. But now, but I could totally say that I can totally empathize with that for sure. In each episode, I asked my guests about two particular things. One is identity. So retaining themselves, even though they're a mom, they still are themselves and they hold their own identity. The other thing I talk about is mum guilt, which I'm sure translates across the across all Yeah, realities. Yeah. So let's talk about identity first. So he's important for you to feel like, and I say this in air quotes, because I know that it's not an actual correct statement. But you are more than just a mum. Yeah, so I didn't know how important that was. Until Yeah, I, you know, I had, you know, I had had an identity, you know, which was, I was a health care worker. And then I became a mom, and then I wasn't that anymore. And so, you know, people would be like, Oh, what do you do? And I'd be like, Oh, I'm a stay at home mom. And so they would automatically say, oh, then okay, what is your husband do? Which, which I'm just, like, just felt terrible to me. It felt terrible to me. And, and so, yeah, that was a big. I went through an identity crisis, really? Where I was just like, What am I besides a mom, like, it didn't feel good to me. It didn't it, didn't it? I felt really, really lost. During Yeah, during that kind of transition, because I didn't really I didn't really know. And like, just, I mean, I'm not saying that, like, just being a mom isn't enough. But for me, it didn't. It just didn't. I just felt lost. You know? So yeah, I mean, it is really important to me to feel like I have something that is just mine, you know, something that that I can tell people about that, that I'm passionate about that that's really just mine, and yeah, so yeah, that is really important to me. Yeah. And something that you can do without your children. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cuz because there isn't really a whole lot of that bathroom. Yep. Yeah, it's Yeah. And it's important that you've got your own space in your home where you can go the space spikes. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've got two toddlers talking at me all day. And like, we're, I just don't even have have a minute to even think to myself and so being in my little die dungeon down here. Oh, being able to just think to myself, talk to myself, I talk to myself all the time. You know, and just create a create what I want to create is everything to me really, you know, it's, it's, I need that in my life. So it's very important. Absolutely. You've said it so well. You actually took the words out of my mouth because I always say I'm I need something just for me. That's just mine. That's how I feel about my, my singing and my performing. And I loved that when you said it. I just went, Yeah, you know, and it was, it was something for me that like I felt I had, it was, it was hard to come to that realization because like, I felt a little selfish for feeling that way. Like, like I was being ungrateful. Because you know, how many people would not love to be in my position where I'm staying at home and not having to, you know, go to a job every day or whatever. But that's really not not fair to me. You know, right, like, yeah, that's not fair to think that way. And so and so yeah, I own that I own that I need some time to myself, you know, and that is not selfish at all. Because I think you probably would find I'm putting words in your mouth now. But a lot of people have said to me, they need something for themselves. So then they can show up in the best way. And for the children. Oh, 100% 100%. Yeah. Because, yeah, I mean, like, before, I was able to, like start doing my yarn dyeing and everything like that. It was, I felt more burnt out, you know, I just felt burnt out. Really? You know, and so yeah, I'm absolutely more able to, you know, I'm taking care of myself. And so it's much easier to show up for my kids. Yeah, you can't pour from an empty cup, you need to have it filled up to be. Yeah, brilliant. So I guess that sort of then leads into that mum guilt, about, you know, feeling like you should be doing everything for your kids, and you shouldn't be doing something for yourself. So I guess you sort of, you've experienced a little bit of that. Yeah. Transition. And I think I think mom guilt is a real thing. You know, I think I think that some people do experience it, but like, I can't 100% say right now that, that I don't and, and, you know, my kids are really helpful in that too. Because they, they honestly think that what I do is the coolest thing in the world. Like, they they really think I'm a rock star. They're just like, Mom, are you gonna go die your yarn, you know, they just think it's the greatest thing in the world. Like my, like, before I come downstairs, my daughter, like gives me a hug and a kiss. And she's like, have fun at work. You know? Like, they just respect the crap out of what I do, which I think it makes it so much easier. You know? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and also, I'm not leaving my house, I can run upstairs whenever I'm needed or whatever, you know. But But yeah, it's, it's great. That's beautiful, that they see what you're doing. And they value that. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they could see a change in in me, you know, because, you know, I'm, I'm happier I feel more more whole. Now, you know, then than I did before when I was feeling you know, lost and like, I didn't have any type of identity or anything for myself. So, but yeah, they think they think it's so cool. And I think that's great Do they ever come down into the die dungeon or? Yeah, I mean, like so. So like dyeing, the dye powder is dangerous. So you have to wear a mask and stuff so they're never around when I'm actually dying. But yeah, like every single morning, they come down to see what I've done, you know, and they'll be like, Oh, Mom, this is my favorite one. I love these colors, you know? So yeah, they definitely helped me you know, do the steps that they they can like help help me like wash out the yarn or like put it in the spin dryer you put it in a spin dryer and let all the water spin out of it. They love that so so yeah, they get involved in the pieces that they can Yeah, and I guess it would be exciting for them to see see the finished product like when it comes out to see what it actually looks like and that'd be new to us. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, it's fun for everybody is like Do you ever think you think it's going to turn out somewhere and then it comes out a different way every single time every single time like you know I have a plan in my head and you know, I start working and doing what I'm doing. And it always does come out a little bit different than than I expect but I usually like it so and if not, I can go back I can kind of go back and rework it a little bit. It's so I do like it you know, like isn't quite dark enough for or whatever you know, do you wish to recipe or need Just go by. See, yeah. So so basically what I do is I develop the recipes. So I, yeah, so I develop the recipes and then I, I write down every single step so that I can try and recreate them, you know, the best I can, you know, you can't 100% recreate it, but you know, if people want, like, specific colorway data, I can do that. Yeah. Do you kids ever? Did they give you suggestions of what colors they want you to make? No, I mean, like, they're kind of like, you know what you're doing? You'll just tell me which ones ones they like and which ones they don't like as much, you know? Yeah. They could critique is at the end. Yeah. Yeah, yes, exactly. Oh, that's it door. I love that. Part of my part of my getting to this point where like, I was even, like, wondering about dyeing yarn and stuff like that was partially because of my I had I had postpartum anxiety. And so, um, you know, I was like, at this, this point where, like, I was just, I just had a really hard time, you know, letting even my husband kind of deal with my, like, when, when I was a new mom, so with my son, like, I was always even concerned with my husband dealing with my son, I didn't want to leave him alone with anybody. I was like, constantly, like, compulsively checking to see if he was breathing, you know, so I really, I really struggled with that. And so I started looking, you know, I started knitting a lot more, you know, just, that is just what I do to help with my anxiety and stuff. And that's how I actually got involved in the, like the knitting community. Because that because I really knew no one else who knit my age at least. And so I that's how I got involved in the knitting community and even learned about indie dyeing. And that's kind of just really what set it all off. So I kind of have my postpartum anxiety is, for that. I have a generalized anxiety disorder that I've been diagnosed with. So actually, when I was kind of in, in the Thralls, of my postpartum anxiety, I didn't I didn't even realize it. So it was more kind of my, my husband was kind of like, oh, you know, I actually, I, I experienced, I don't know if you've ever heard of this. It's called dysphoric milk ejection reflex. So basically, what it is, is when you're, you're breastfeeding or pumping breast milk, the letdown. It's, you know, releases chemicals in your brain. And for people who experienced this, like myself, it makes you feel terrible. Like, it's just like a wash of bad feeling over you. And so I experienced that during breastfeeding. And I also was just having a really hard time breastfeeding, like, I was just not a very good milk producer. And so it was, it was it was just kind of a double whammy, really. And so like, I was kind of dealing with that. And I was dealing with the I mean, and I didn't really know I did actually end up talking to my I, I had a midwife I did I did home births with both my children. And so anyway, I told my midwife about that and she diagnosed me with the dysphoric milk rejection thing, and it's so that you know, and I mean, there wasn't really much to do about it, I guess. So. I just kind of dealt with it. And I kind of fought I fought with breastfeeding for about eight months with my son. And finally, my husband was just like, can we please just try some formula? And I was like, I guess. And so we did. And like, Honestly, after I put my son on formula, like, I felt so much better, really, you know, and I had, I had been a mom for eight months, you know, and so that kind of was like my coming out of that. But then I got pregnant, right after I stopped breastfeeding, and kind of but but at least like with my daughter, I knew what I was getting into. I knew I was going to experience that. And so I just didn't breastfeed her as long as and put her on formula, like after three or four months. So yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's so I didn't really, so when I was in the postpartum anxiety, like, it's something that I see so much looking back on. But like, I didn't really realize until I was out of it until I like, talk, because, you know, it's like, when you're in it, you're just like, what, what are you talking about? Yeah, I can so precisely that situation was just very defensive and everything and so so looking back on it, I was like, Oh, me on so yeah, and I mean, like, with my, with my daughter, it wasn't, it wasn't as bad. Because I wasn't a brand new mom, I knew she she was going to be breathing every single check. Do you know? And? Yeah, so. So so I didn't necessarily deal with it with my health care professionals at all. But it was also something that like, I hadn't really heard a whole lot about, like, you hear a ton about postpartum depression, but not very much about postpartum anxiety. So it for sure. Yeah. So it's definitely a real thing. And it's definitely different. You know, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Like I've had my background experience has been replaced now depression. And I didn't know there was a thing called personnel anxiety till I spoke to Jade, who's on the program next week. So and now I'm talking to you. There's no speak to experience. So it must be so widespread, but yeah, it will just don't you know, don't hear about it. I don't know if they don't, they're not aware of it. Which I don't know. I wonder I wonder if it because, like, you know, I? I wonder if it's just because maybe, I don't know, it's maybe it's more common amongst people who have like, anxiety disorders. I don't know. I don't know if the other lady that that you talked to has like a anxiety or panic disorder and her Yeah, life or whatever, but but I do. And so, um, but I mean, like, my husband, my husband's known me for forever, you know, and he, he was just like, it was on a different level. You know, during my, my postnatal Yeah. So yeah. First one is always is always tough. I think, you know, because you just don't, you just don't I mean, like, I was a caregiver for for 12 years. And I still, you know, I was like, before I had kids, I was just like, I got this, you know, but then, but then I had kids and I was like, wow, this is this is really a totally different ballgame. Oh, yeah. Nothing can prepare you really nothing? Yeah. Nothing at all. Even people tell you about it. Before you have kids, they tell you. It's really bad, but and you just get it. Yeah, that's nice. Because you're not in that headspace. You have no concept of what it's like to not have sleep and you know, yeah, you don't. You don't you're not there. Yeah, if you would have told me that I would be waking up at six o'clock, five o'clock in the morning every day. I wouldn't be like, No, not me. But that is my life now like I was I was definitely the gal who like slept as late as possible before working. But but now it's just like I'm an early riser. Yep. They changed your life in so many Abiel so many assays. Oh, yeah. Is the knitting community really big in America? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So um, yeah. If you're not a part of the knitting community, you wouldn't know how huge it is. Yeah, it's it's it's big. Yeah, it's big. It's a it's a big deal among knitters and crochet errs and, you know, fiber artists, so, yeah, yeah. Cool. There's a lot of people a lot of people involved yet. Yeah, over here. It's Like crocheting is having this massive resurgence in a, in a not doily way. Yeah. Right. It's the best way I can describe it. It's like they're making all these amazing, beautiful Teddy's and creations. And yeah, those are so cool. I love it and because I have so much respect for it, because I don't understand how they do it. So yeah, I have no idea how to crochet. I've never I've never tried, I kind of always just, I like, the way that knitting looks, you know, and so that's why I wanted to knit. I just kind of like the the end product of of knitting, but now, but now I've seen lots of crochet stuff that looks like knitting So, but But yeah, I've never learned how to crochet but yeah, I do know, I do know a lot of people who do. Yeah, yeah, it might inspire me just to pick up the sticks again, maybe Yeah. I, when I listened to Melanie's episode, I was crying at the end. Because, you know, it's like, it's like, because I can relate to her a lot. And so I you know, it's almost like you feel so validated, you feel validated when you hear other people have gone through the same things that you did, you know, because, you know, a lot of, of what you see is like, perfect, perfect. Culture, perfect, mom's perfect, you know, everything and, and if you don't see the real side of it, then you feel like you're alone on an island. And, and so it's so validating and to hear other people's stories about motherhood and what, what they did and what they went through and stuff. So I think what you're doing is, is wonderful. Oh, thank you, thanks for being a part of it. I kind of like work on collections. So like, I did a spring collection and now I'm doing fall collection. And you know, because I'm because I'm a fairly new business. You know, I'm just kind of go in the flow and seeing how things go, you know, so but yeah, it's kind of like, I guess the goal is to be able to release collections and also have like, custom like sweater quantity orders come in and stuff like that. So yeah, that's that's kind of the goal. So, yep. Thank you. Thank you. It was great talking to you. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I'm so excited to have have a special American as well. Thank you again, Megan. Alright, take care and best of luck. You too. Stay wary. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet

Edwina Masson Australian vocal loops artist S3 Ep88 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Edwina Masson is my guest this week, a musician and mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. Edwina was born in Brisbane and moved 5 states before she was 10 years old. She didn't have a lot of stability in her home location but her constant was the music that she listened to as a family, Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates towards music to cope with stress and emotions. She started composing music in year 5 on Garage Band, and began to develop a love for harmony. During high school she was music captain and sang, played clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family, and went on to study performing arts at university, and lectured also. Edwina describes her musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, using her voice as the instrument. and creating emotionally dense music which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021 she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and couldn't find it. Edwina began to write music that she need to get though, initially only meant for her, but on realising that others could benefit from it in 2022 Edwina released the album Birth of A Mother. It's the music she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Edwina has recently created the Live Loops Choir in the Noosa Hinterland, a non audition, any ability singing group to be able to create the music she loves in a live setting. If you are in the neighbourhood check it out, link below. This episode contains mentions of hyperemesis gravidarum, birth trauma, post natal depression, miscarriage and traumatic early childhood. Edwina - instagram / live loops choir / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Edwina throughout the episode When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening around the world. My guest this week is Edwina Masson. a tweener is a musician and a mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. That duaner was born in Brisbane, and she moved around five states before she was 10 years old. It was these changes in location and schools that created the instability in her life. But the constant was the music that she listened to with our family. Musicians like Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, the WHO Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates toward music to cope with stress and changes in emotions. She started composing music when she was in year five, using GarageBand and began to develop a love of harmony. During high school she was Music captain, and she sang play clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family. And she went on to study Performing Arts at uni and also became a lecturer at Duany described describes her current musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, sometimes up to 50, using her voice as the instrument and creating emotionally dense music, which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a particularly traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021, she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and she couldn't find it. So Edwina began to write music, the music that she needed to get through, initially only meant for herself, but on realizing that others could benefit from it too. In 2022, Edwina released the album, Birth of a mother, it's the music that she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Dwayne has also recently created the live loops choir in the Noosa hinterland and non audition, any ability singing group to be able to perform the music she loves in a live setting. And if you're in the neighborhood, I encourage you to check it out. I've put the link in the show notes. Today's episode does get quite full on at times, just letting you know that it contains mentions of a traumatic pregnancy and birth and postnatal depression and also mentions of miscarriage. Throughout this episode, you'll hear snippets of a Dwayne his music, particularly from the album birth of a mother and I encourage you to check it out to again, the links in the show notes. It's just beautiful music and it just soothes your soul. No matter what stage you're in. Whether you are a new mother pregnant, or you've got kids that are 15 years old, it really speaks to all of us. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're gonna love this episode, and take care do doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, it's absolutely my pleasure. It's lovely to put a face to the sounds like I mean, I've seen you on Instagram, obviously, but to speak to you, after listening to, to your incredible music. It's really, really lovely to meet you. Oh, that's so that's so sweet. I get that. You know what, I actually get that more often than you think. Because other people listen to my music. And I don't actually, it's really interesting as a musician, like you put music out and you kind of think that, like, no one's listening to it. And then you just like, it's just for me. And then somebody's like, you're the person and I'm like, Yeah, my music sounds so deep. And then you meet me and you're like, you're a dork. Edwina. Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. Yes. So we're about to you at the moment. Where are you? What in the world are we has a really good question. We are currently on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland in Australia. And we've been here I think for about seven months now. Seven months we've been living here and it's just so beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. I am, we used to come up for a couple of years in a row, we came up to Caloundra for a family holidays. And I just loved it up there. I just loved it. We loved it so much. You went to exactly the same place two years in a row. We just loved it so much. It's like why do we need to go anywhere else? If it ain't broke? Don't fix it. We're in like the kind of like the Noosa hinterland. Oh, yeah. And it's just where it's so beautiful. It's like I spent years just like dreaming about living in like a rainforest. And we do now and it's just, oh, I look out my window every day. And I feel so lucky. So happy to be here yet. Do you have all those? I don't know what sort of birds they are. But I've never heard them because I'm from that Gambia right down south. And there's these birds like they made like a whipping with Yes. Yeah. Like the Lyrebirds. Like the Yeah. And they had like the rainforest bird. Yeah, yeah, that we do have them and you can go out on the balcony first thing in the morning, and you can hear them and it is just like, you are transported to deep rainforest when you hear those birds there. Yeah, we do have them and they are spectacular. Yeah. No, I love that I love. Yeah. And the other thing I remember there being up there was that it got it got light a lot earlier than what it does at home. And so like you'd be woken up with this beautiful bird song. And it was just like, oh my gosh, and then you'd see like, we're staying at the beach at the ocean. It was just like, why did we live where we live? What we need to do here? Yeah, it does. It's like both a blessing and a curse that the sunrise is so early, like the sunrises before five. At the moment, the sun is I can see the sun restarting, like it gets light at like 450. And like, I know that because my child wakes up at that time. So this is before the sun is even, like awakened. My child's like it's going to rise in the next 10 minutes, Mom, I'm ready for it. Like I'm just beating it up, they're ready to give it away when it comes. That's gorgeous. God, it's up to us to keep them I can see how close you are. So you're a singer, songwriter, performer? How did you first get into music? Wow, it's a great question. I grew up moving a lot. So I was born in Brisbane. And then we moved to states five times before I was 10. And yeah, and I didn't have a lot of stability and like the home that we were living in or the friends that I had. And so something that was always really constant in my life was the music that we listened to as a family. It was always like Paul Kelly and Led Zeppelin and the who and Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. And that was like such a core memory of stability and safety for me that I think that really had an impact on when I was getting older what I gravitated towards to cope with stress and to cope with emotion. And I think I was about I was about 10 And we had we just moved to Western Australia. And I remember going into year five and singing just like singing in class. And it was the first time that like a kid had told me that I had a good voice and I was like What do you mean, my family told me that I sound like a dying cat. Literally, they would say that and then I had all these kids being like, Oh, you can really sing. And then suddenly I was like oh that's the thing. Like in my mind. It was the thing that set me apart. So my Had I kind of developed a slightly unhealthy attachment to singing for a long time of like it was my entire self worth. Yeah. And I just kept singing. And then when I graduated high school, I was like to my parents, I'm going to be a singer. And like the shock and horror on their faces of oh, dear Lord, how is she gonna make this work? Because they barely knew that I was like a singer. I was always playing clarinet and double bass, but I never told them that I was a singer until the end of year 12, even though I was like Music captain sung in choirs as sung solo at school all the time. Like I just never told them. Oh, by the way, actually sing all the time. Yeah. So image in your head of this dying cat singer. They really had very little clue that I was as good as I was. Yeah. And I remember them. I remember singing at like the highest high school, entire school presentation that at the end of the year at this big old, like theater, and then hearing me really, for the first time seeing was like a 70 person choir behind me. And I remember afterwards and being like, Are you kidding? Like, what do you mean that you have been singing and being taught for like, what? Why didn't you want to tell us and it was like a whole thing of like me just not telling them that I was a singer, because I didn't want them to tell me that I sounded bad. Oh, yeah. So then I Yeah. And so then I went into performing arts university. And that was an experience and then I lectured and yeah, that was kind of how it all started for me. Yeah, right. Something that's really big for you is harmony, which is I love is I've spent so many years of my life two part singing, and I just adore it. When did you first sort of start to recognize harmony as an actual thing, and start to fall in love with it? Well, I started writing instrumental music before I ever started singing. So I was, I was in year five. And my family had just gotten like the first Apple Computer. And I remember GarageBand being on there, and it was free. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you mean I can put like, I can just make music. And I would spend hours on there just like bashing the typing keyboard as like a piano keyboard, just writing different parts and different. And that's when I started really, I had no idea what harmony was, I didn't know what intervals or anything like that was. But I remember, I listened to classical music growing up. And I had listened to such amazing artists that it was already like, clicking inside of my system, or this, this sounds good. And like this does not sound good. And so it was really very young that I started realizing that I loved harmonies, and then I sang in choir in school. And I always just had this obsession with like harmony was the tool that you could use to express emotion and not need words. And that to me when I was growing up was very important because I didn't necessarily want to talk about what I was feeling. Or there wasn't this wasn't necessarily a space for me to be able to talk about how I was feeling. And harmony was this tool that I was able to use to be like, I am feeling angry, or I'm feeling such pain or such joy and not have to actually with words, say those things. So it definitely was like my own form of therapy for many years. Yeah, that's it. I've never actually thought of it that way. But that is so true. It's like it evokes so much in you when you hear these particular, you know, chords and constructs of notes. That's really incredible. Thanks for Thanks for sharing that. So welcome. It was, honestly I remember being like, the melody, like in contemporary singers today. The thing I always talk to my students about is like, your Lyric should only be doing 50% of the work. Your melodies and harmonies that support the lyrics that you're using. should be doing. Like if you took away the lyrics does your melodies actually say anything? And that was the massive thing for me is like I spent so much time being like, How can I communicate how I feel, without ever having to say one word and harmony was such an amazing tool to use. So it was like a low key obsession of mine. Yeah, I'm pleased because you're very, you've got a very it's like an innate natural ability, which I love. I think that's awesome. Because I think sometimes you can't teach that stuff. I know you can. You can actually teach it but just to get it like I had no formal train Writing in harmony. My dad used to listen to a lot of country music. So Johnny Cash, John Java course all male, like male voices, and I have an alto voice, but that's not that low, you know? It's not John. Hello, thankfully. So yeah, I, I developed a way to sing along to the songs in the car, because I couldn't sing the tune in their, in their, in their what is their their vocal range, there's their register in that register, that's what I'm after. And I couldn't sing it up the octave because my voice was too low. So I started to sing harmony, harmony without knowing what it was just to be able to join in and sing the songs because I love the song so much. And that's just did that too. Oh, and it's like, I'd never been taught and I never knew the words for until years later when people started explaining to me or you're singing in thirds, or you're seeing in whatever is and I was like, Well, that's nice. Glad I know what that means. But I had that's cool. What I do, you know, yeah, and it's just it's worked really great because my sister and I have been together for years as a duo. And I just naturally take the harmonies because it's like, you know, it's just there in your body sort of thing and hear some people are much some people's ears are definitely more receptive and perceptive of harmony. And they find it a lot easier to hear for sure in like when I was lecturing, you could really tell the musicians whose ear was more sensitive to harmony. Yeah, it was yeah, it was something that it usually came down to the type of music that they'd listened to growing up. They were listening to music like country music, a lot of country music has a lot of harmony in it. Like particularly a lot of like, country groups. There's a whole bunch of there. It's so harmony dense in regards to like, there'll be three parts singing the melody like Yes, yep. So it is really interesting seeing how the music you grow up with hugely influences where your strength will lie if you are interested in being a musician. Yeah, that's really cool. That's really cool. The other thing I find I do find it frustrating though, because when you've got that ear and you're used to picking nights and hearing things, when you hear something that's not quite right, it really frustrates you are don't even honest to God. It's like it's a blessing and a curse being so trained in music. I honestly, I remember I went through a phase probably when I was at university, and I was studying it for literally like eight, nine hours a day, I was studying music. And it got to a point where I went definitely went through like a snobby snobby vase being like, What do you mean, you're singing flat? And it feels like, it's like, you know, the pee in the mattress? Yeah, like the old storytel. Yeah, yeah, it felt like that I would hear everything and hear something was flat, I would hear if it didn't match up, I would hear if the harmonies weren't falling. Like the same vibrato, like my ear was so trained that I for a while I actually couldn't enjoy a lot of music. Yeah, yeah. And I actually when I remember when I graduated, I actually had to take a step back and be like Edwina, why did you start singing in the first place? Because it wasn't about the academics. Yeah, it was, it was truly about how it made you feel. You just have the tools to express how you feel better now, but like, yeah, I definitely resonate with what you're saying. So I remember listening to other musicians and being like, they caught even saying, like no, I'm not. I don't think that at all now, but I definitely went through that phase. Oh, yeah. Because, like, I often think about the fact that like, if I wasn't as good as I was, I wouldn't be up there. Because I'm so judgmental on myself that, like, I used to have a habit of judging others with the same lens that I judged myself and because they would never level up to what the capabilities of myself I was like, Why do you think you should be up there? So definitely like to that. Yeah, it's it takes a takes a while to unpack it, for sure. So I understand that. Yes. And I personally had to let go of a lot of like jealousy, like, oh, how come they get to do it? I can do this. Why can I do it? And over the years, I've gotten very good at just going you know what, it's not nothing to do with you, Allison, this is this person. This is where they are in their life and their journey and you have no idea where they come from or what they're doing. And I've just gotten really good at like going that's good on them. I'm really pleased for them. That took a little bit. It's really hard as like a musician when for my personal experience when I was studying it was such a competitive environment that you couldn't help like that you weren't told that there was room enough for everybody. Yeah, space existed for everyone. So you would it was like inbuilt in you to become judgmental and to become competitive and to become this. This thing where you believe that you know if you didn't get that opportunity And then you like you were missing out on the break on the on the next opportunity. And I definitely went through that we will literally got ranked when I was at university. Yeah, we would end the top four singers would get all the opportunities. And I was lucky to always be in that top four. But I remember the, like, I remember the levels that I like, how much I work to be in that top four and how I had massive burnout at the end of studying because of it. Yeah. So it definitely like the music industry breeze you for competitiveness, and it actually takes active, unlike undoing to just allow someone to sing and not charge them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up doing a Stanford's. They used to put me in a sentence from a very young age. And I think it's the worst thing that ever happened to me, because I just think continued to go through life thinking I was being judged all the time all the time. Yep. Yep. Yep, I still work through that stuff. Yeah. And you have an expectation that whatever, whatever this person tells you must be right. Because they're the adjudicator, you know? And it took me took me years until someone said to me, Allison, are you going to let one person's opinion might like, change your opinion of yourself? You're gonna let that one person have that much control over you. And I just went? Yeah, no, that's what I've been doing since I was like, I don't know. Young Child. Yep. Like, and yeah, music is. So beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Every person will like a particular type of music and like a particular type of voice better. So it's really hard. I remember when I was lecturing, how hard it was to mark someone on the skill. Because it's like, I always knew that I had biases to the types of voices that I liked. So I had to really actively be like, Okay, if I take away my own bias, how do they technically like when we're looking at technique? How the technique because there are some vocal tones that I just love, and there are others that I am interested in. So it is a really, that's why studying music and it's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah, yeah, I have memories of like, but just before I set for the started, like the room is room, excuse me, the rumor mill would start up about who's the adjudicator? And what sort of voice Do they like? And then when we knew that they liked surprise all those hours ago, stuff, nice, you know, what we bother, you know, if you could get you down right from the start, you know, you'd go out there just thinking that they're not gonna like me, because they like sopranos, you know? Yeah. So that, that kills a little person's head. And, you know, it took me took me to I was certainly my young adulthood to actually say to myself, You know what, I don't need to do this anymore. Like, yeah, no one's making me do this anymore. Why am I doing this? I'm actually so thankful that I didn't do a lot of those things when I was that young singing was something that was so incredibly like, personal and like, sacred to me from a very young age. And I didn't have singing lessons until I got into performing arts university because of the fact that I was always like, I don't want someone else to take this, this thing that I have, but I was so young, and I recognize that I recognize. Yeah, and then when I started university, I was like, my song, my voice is the audible version of my soul, I will protect it with my life, because it meant so much to me. And I think that's the reason why I didn't want to have singing lessons in high school because I knew someone was going to come in. And like, I was just learning my voice. I was just like, in this point in time where I didn't want to compete for it. I didn't, I just knew, but then I went to university and it was like, wow, like whiplash? Oh, yeah. Suddenly coming into a highly competitive environment. Being so unlike I was on trained, but I was really passionate about it. So I was able to pick things up very quickly. And it went from being a therapy to being a sport. It was it was a real, a real change for me. And it took I wanted to quit so many times because I was like, I don't love this anymore. This isn't why I started singing. Yeah, and I remember just my lecturer who was spectacular, telling me you know, you have to think of these simply as tools that we're trying to teach you so that you can access your therapy even more specific specifically so I can sing with more nuance and I can have more vocal range to communicate how I'm feeling and I had to come back to that so many times because otherwise it just wasn't worth it. It just wasn't worth it. It was like could you you were you really protective of that because you thought people were going to try and change what you had. Well I would listen to people voices change like really change I was like, This is not you have any more or and I came later came to learn a lot about placement and how placement affects tone and, and I would hear singers mimic other singers. And I was like, well, that's no longer you. You're manipulating your placement to sound like someone else. And therefore it means that you're not actually authentically singing your voice and you're like your story. And that was something for really young age that I was like that's, that's I'm not I'm not willing to do that. Yeah, that's actually one of my pet peeves in in singers is people who manipulate their voice to sound a particular way. It just really makes me just, I just think, and then when they successful at that, and then I've got to finish back, you know, I think that's not even you. Yeah. Because, like we go through stages as a society as being told this is the voice like Christina Aguilera. Oh, my gosh, you had millions of young white children, young white females trying to sound black. Yeah, because of Christina Aguilera, Christina Aguilera had multiple vocal health issues because of her terrible technique in her lower part of her range. She can no longer belt as high as she could, because of how she treated her voice. Yeah. So it was definitely I remember being like, I want to be Christina Aguilera. Like when I was when I was really young. And then I was like, well, this hurts. Yes. Yes. Do this. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely. I think about that often. And I just am thankful to the younger version of myself who was really protective of it. Because I probably wouldn't still be singing if I had been in a Stanford because I cannot compete when it comes to voice like I just I can't do it. I can't do it. I used to do piano. And I did one concert and I would never do it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just, it just takes out like you said this. The soul things like it's just, I don't know. It's odd. I hate them. And I, I paint them with a passion. And I wish I mean, I guess it's taught me something. You get something out of it. But yeah, it wasn't that great. But anyway, enough of that. I know there are times when you feel like you can't do it on your own. I promise you, you're God. So tell me about your album that you released last year, which is amazing. Thank you. That was a birth of a mother. Yes. Yes. So I wrote those songs. When I was pregnant with my son in 2020s. Yeah, 2020 I, like started writing songs and 2021. And for me, they literally those songs were only ever meant for me. It was I had a really tough pregnancy. I had hyperemesis gravidarum I had every everything under the sun. When it comes to like side effects. I used to get pregnancy hives, my vocal cords was so swollen because of how much I was throwing up. Yeah, it was the like, it was so dark that period of time. And I remember being like, where is the music that is specifically for someone like myself, like, where's the music that is for someone who is terrified of becoming a mother, even though they want it so much or terrified of birth. I just needed like a, an audible birthing step. Like that's what it felt like to me, I just needed to write these songs to help me feel supported. And so that's what I did. And because I couldn't work because I couldn't. My vocal stamina was so affected by the sickness, I had a lot of time. To slowly record these songs, I listened back to the vocals, like the lead vocals on some of those songs. And I'm like, oh, man, you can hear the fatigue. Like I know my worth well enough, and I can hear the fatigue, I can hear just how hard I found that period of time in my life. And so they were just the biggest support for me. And that's why I decided after like after, I think I was pretty pregnant when I started releasing the songs, not on Spotify. And I remember other women being like, oh my gosh, thank you. Because like, I was never really into mantra music or like the, those types of things. I was like, I want it to feel contemporary enough that someone who is not spiritual at all, can listen to it and not be like what is this? Yeah. And so it was like bringing my very like specific type of writing into a space where I was like 50% of the population have mothers or mothering or parenting or birthing babies, and there was like, no music just for them. Oh my gosh, yeah. How, how? Oh, how and so I just, I just couldn't get over that. I was like, once again, there's so underrepresented as mothers in, like, I know, there were so many female mother artists, but where is the music that is actually for them. So that's why I created the music. And then last year, I was finally like, I just need these to exist in the world. I just need them to be somewhere easy, even though it doesn't make me money. Because Spotify or Spotify, but I was just like, it just has to exist somewhere. Because, like, I just got to a point where I was like, it's not just for me, it's bigger than me. It's just bigger than me. And so that's why they're on Spotify now. And I just love the album. I still go back and listen to it. I still go backwards to it. Yeah, yeah. So for for those who haven't heard it, how do you how can you describe? Because it is very unique. Yeah, the way that you put things together and you add delays? Can you just describe how you do it? Maybe a process of how you put it together? Yeah, so essentially, I'm a vocal looping artist. So I create songs 95%, just with my voice. So essentially, it is a song where every instrument that you might hear in a normal track is my voice in my music. Yeah, it's I don't know, I don't know, genre, in regards to my music, like it really is really hard to, but it definitely has influences of many different styles. And yeah, it was one of my all time favorite time to this day favorite artists and has been probably one of the biggest influences in the way that I write. But yeah, that's how I would kind of, I would say it's like a mix of ner with Gosh, I don't even know that's a really hard thing. I used to be really good at describing what I did when I wrote like, pop music. And how I'm just like, you have to hear it. Yeah, no, literally. But it is it's very vocally dense, harmonically dense music that takes you on quite the emotional journey. Hmm, absolutely. Now that's a great way of describing it. Did you make a sort of a considered decision to not include instruments in your work? Was it like, this is you're taking ownership of this yourself? Yeah, it was I, I, when I first started, like performing I had an 11 piece band, I had a big band, I had three horns, three backing vocalists, it was like the full shebang. And the first EP I ever released was, was that it was massive. And then I remember finding it so hard to ever do gigs or to ever, like it was just a really difficult thing. And I remember being like, these instruments aren't even accurately doing or playing what I exactly want in my head, because they're all bringing their own personality and their own filter to the souls. And I remember just starting to do vocal, I started vocal looping when I was 17. And I'm 29 now. So I started vocally exploring harmony and rhythm with my voice a long time ago. And I think I was 21 or 22 When I started writing, just vocal music. And it took me a really long time to accept that that's what felt most authentic for me as a musical expression. Because I was always like, this doesn't fit anywhere in music like this doesn't, it didn't fit anywhere. It was never going to end up on radio, in the radio stations that I dreamed of like I really grappled with that for a long time. Because I was like, this just isn't like anything else I've heard. And I didn't know where it would fit. So it took me a really long time to just be like, well, this is this is me like this is this is what goes on in my brain. And I just remember getting to a point where I was like this, I have to honor the fact that if I'm going to be a musician, I am going to be an authentic musician. And this is what is going to have to sound like and it might not be for everybody. But I can go back and listen to this music and know exactly how I was feeling and hear every single vocal harmony and know that It was placed there, because my brain was like it needs to be placed there. So intentional. Yeah, it is, it was really intentional. And it's like I love collaborating with others. However, I always loved being able to have a bit of a control freak, probably. I liked being able to control where everything sat and the I knew that I could sing certain things better than other singers. And when I was my song, I wanted to be able to exactly replicate my harmony, exactly replicate, like, my vibrato on certain things. So that it would wouldn't each pot Ness doesn't necessarily stand out. By itself. It kind of feels like a wall of sound. Yeah. And so I just practiced and did that and just wrote, and I look back at the first vocal looping songs that I ever recorded in my bedroom. And it's like three layers. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And now you now you look at my recorded files of my songs, and it's like, minimum 40 to 50 layers of stuff. Oh, wow. Because everything gets doubled, and we pull things to the left and pull things to the right. And there's parts that exact like work exactly, just as rhythmic stuff. And, and to me, I was just like, oh, this just feels so cool. To like, Okay, so my two biggest influences are Enya. And Bobby McFerrin. Yeah, right? Yep. I studied him when I was studying at university, and he had such a huge impact on me, because he's ranged was phenomenal. And his ability to move, I just had never heard anyone like that. And I went, so I dove so deep into his vocal past. And that's why I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to try and replicate that on a looper because I couldn't sing as low as him. And that's kind of how it really like that love affair of like being able to just be voice because his was just voice you would hear him collaborate with other musicians. And he would be singing the baseline, while the double bass player was playing, like some type of melody. It was just like, holy moly, that just blew my mind. Like it was just had such a profound impact on me. So those two together is kind of how I ended up with what I do now. Bodies Yeah, a couple of things from that. I want to mention that when you talked about having to sort of have this, I'm gonna call it an existential crisis, but literally deciding between what was genuine and authentic for you to present as your music and what I think what music industry or being in the music environment tells us, our end goal is we have to be heard we have to be on radio, we have to get our break, we have to do this, you know, it's fighting against all that. Yeah, it's, it's pretty hardcore, I really had a hard time with it. I, when I go back on my own catalogue of music, you literally see the evolution of that crisis of me starting to write with that 11 piece band and then moving into one like almost electronic music. And that was the moment where I was like, you've gotten too far off, like you've gone too far away from I was singing lead vocals on like, EDM tracks, like, like club bangers. Yeah. And I was like, you have gone so far away from where you're meant to be. And because I had health issues, I remember thinking to myself, you only can sing a certain amount of hours a day, you only have the energy to do so much creation, if you're going to do it. It needs to be something that you will love. And it needs to be something that makes you feel like truly seen and truly heard. And that was something I was so passionate about is is what I'm putting out into the world. Is that Is that me? Is that me? And the more that I practice, and that's why I always say to people, you know, your first thing doesn't have to be this thing that gets you your followers that gets your big break, whatever that means to you. Like just start because I look back and I'm like, I'm so happy I recorded that music and released it because that you can literally see the evolution of myself as an artist and trying to work hard to get to a place where the music I'm releasing most accurately reflects my internal state. And I remember when I finally got there it just like that was the vocal loop. It was just like a clip. Yeah, and it was just like, Ah, this is it. Like this is me. This is all the everything I hear in my head. I can finally create something that like that everyone else can listen to. Because even when I was with the 11 piece band, I'd be hearing so much more in my mind that was never going to be able to be played by another instrument. And other singers would were having a trouble hearing the harmonies or I couldn't have 17 singers on stage with me. So I just couldn't do that it was just, I couldn't get paid any money doing that, like I just there was no, there was no money. So if it was just me on stage with my Looper one, I would actually make money. And two, I was able to have ultimate freedom and ultimate control. Yeah, and not have to worry about someone else keeping up with me. And it was just as like, oh, that's what it felt like, it felt like such a big sigh of relief. That's what it definitely felt like, yeah, I can relate to that on a slightly different level. But same sort of thing. I do have control issues. And my sisters listening should be nodding your head right now. Because I, as I'm gonna say, I hear things, and I know how I want it to sound. And I'm getting better. I mean, I think I've, since I've totally got over it, but I don't have to do at all. Like, it doesn't have to be me. But when I spent 20 years singing in a vocal group, and towards the end, it was just, it had gone from this massive choir to like we would I was involved in like the Committee stage of things. And we, we turned it into four or five, sort of niche groups. So I was in this, this group of there were six of us. And we're, we're doing part singing. And I guess every group is going to have a leader. And it wasn't me, which was fine, because I didn't want to lead but I wanted to have my ideas heard. And I wanted to be able to say, actually, can we do it like this? Or can we try it at this tempo or whatever. But the personality clashes made it really hard to do that. So I just went, I'm not doing this anymore. And I didn't do any anything except for I turned myself into a soloist and just got mine backings got all my own gear just made it possible that I didn't have to organize rehearsals with people, I could do everything I wanted. So I basically just went, nah, this this is too much for my head anymore. And around that time. You know, my, my first son was gonna say he was about seven. Were thinking about having another one. And I was like, No, this is just too much. And so I just brought it all the way back to me and then gradually added my sister back in, because we could communicate and and do things together. But it's I don't know, you just get to that moment where you just go, This isn't me anymore. Yeah. And I think it's like, you have to give yourself permission to be okay with that. Like, I remember accepting that my music will may not live in the spaces that we are told music should live in. I remember being like, you know what, it's okay, if it doesn't end up on this radio, because I'm not the type of person that listens to the radio like that. Anyway, like, I had to really get so clear on what if I was to be a musician my whole life? If I came at the end of it, what do I want to feel like I have done for myself? And am I proud of where my music has existed? And when am I creating music that actually helps people and makes people feel things? Or am I writing music for a record label? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really came back to like, oh, I need this is I came back to that little like 10 year old girl who wrote music because it was therapy was is what I always came back to. I was like, I want to be able to look back on to her. And be like, I I kept, I kept going with that I using was first and foremost an emotional expression for me. And anyone who gets to enjoy it. It's like, you're welcome. Like, I write, I write for me, I sing for me, I perform for me. And it just happened to be the the moment I found the most authentic expression of myself at the moment where people were like that was that was a really interesting moments like when I I don't know it doesn't happen for everybody. But for me personally, it was like I just had this perfect combination of like, sound like the sound that I was producing people were looking for. Yeah, and I'm so thankful for that. But in the end, even if I didn't have that I can listen to my music and be proud that I did it for myself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The way you're listening to the odd thing. You talked about being pregnant. How wild is your little boy here? He is to in May. So yeah, he's a wild. I was gonna say fun times. My gosh, my child has been In a wild since the moment he was conceived, like home I gosh, I could not prepare myself at all for that journey like it was. It has been the baptism of fire over and over again with my beautiful beautiful son. He's just so wild. Oh man. Yeah, he's Yeah, it's been big. It's been a big, big journey from being sick. My whole pregnancy. He went to 42 weeks. Yeah. Oh, yeah, he was coming out. No, he was very happy. And I was in severe pain, like a my body it was just like, well, we're gonna, we're gonna break now. We're done. And then birth going sideways. In regards to Yeah, it didn't go to plan. And then our postpartum with Fergus was honestly I didn't think between pote like pregnancy and birth, I thought they were going to be the two hardest experience, but it was our postpartum. It was like a first eight months with Fergus was the just the worst time in our lives easily. So definitely, I felt like I had what I suppose people call like ego deaths. I just felt like I died over and over and over becoming a mother. It was just so your identity was changing so much. And yeah, because I barely could sing when I was pregnant. And then after I gave birth, my plan was to go back to work back to being an artist at like three months postpartum. And then I had to have an emergency cesarean for our for birth, after a home tried home birth for 24 hours. And then we gave birth to Fergus and Fergus was a incredibly distressed child, he had so much stress in his body. So we spent the first almost year of his life just supporting him like he would scream and cry for about nine hours a day. It was we couldn't leave the house. He never was able to go into a carrier because he hated any type of pressure on his restriction on his body. We couldn't put him in a pram until he was six months old, seven months old. And still to this day, he doesn't doesn't like being a pram and then he started walking at eight months started crawling at four months. Yeah, he was we we had the hardest time no one could like look after him for the first nine months of his life because he would he just had he had a lot of trauma in his body. He came out holding his neck up screaming bloody murder. Well, he could take a turn his head from birth like he was never a floppy head, baby Cheevers Yeah, he used to he never he hated sit like I have forgotten so much. We've definitely blacked out a lot. But he hated sitting from the moment he was born. He was like 10 days old and he was his legs were straight and they wouldn't he just wouldn't sit. Yeah. He had just so much tension in his body. So we had to do a lot of work with him to help him basically unwind his nervous system and that involved a lot of like, trauma for us parents of listening, being with him as he expressed his emotions and we would sit with him. And he was like we knew he was fed in we we'd gone every Western medicine route to see if there was anything wrong. I say that in inverted commas wrong with him. Yeah. And then we found a way of parenting. Yeah, that was the game changer. We worked with like a birth trauma aware parenting specialist, and she changed our life. It was yeah, it was fantastic. But Ferg was a really, really intense child. And for the first year and he still to this day is massive feelings. So I didn't sing for a year for the first year of Fergus his life I didn't didn't touch my Looper at all. And it was the worst time of my life. Yeah, yeah. Is it's literally your that identity that part of you is just disappeared. Yeah, and I genuinely thought I was never going to sing again. Like I really thought that this was over because, like fit I couldn't sing with Fergus because Fergus just hate like he just couldn't. He wouldn't sit like he couldn't be still. He wasn't just the baby you can put in a bouncer like ever. I couldn't just put him in a carrier when he wouldn't sleep. He was such a light sleeper for the first year and a half of his life. So I couldn't sing like I could never leave the bedroom and sing. So he was honestly he was like 16 months the first time I pulled out my looper. Yeah, right, since before giving birth. But I had honestly thought, hey, and my voice was so wrecked because my body was so exhausted. That I had such limited vocal range, my muscles were just shot to pieces. And I just have such deep set I have so sad. Like, I remember being so sad about it. Like I was just like this has been my life for a decade. And then some I would I had so much anger because I would watch other musicians who were mothers be able to balance both. Like they were able to take their children to their shows their child was able to fall asleep on their body as they practiced, I would watch them record music with their kids in the room. And I had a baby that was so angry. Just such an angry and struggling child that I couldn't we couldn't do anything like our life didn't even look remotely like it had before giving birth and so we really, we really struggled and we were in lockdown. And we had no family man. And that's the thing the thing that you had always gone to to work through stuff with your music that wasn't accessible tea. Nope. So I pretty iced I had, I did suffer from like, postnatal depression. Because I had no I had nothing no, not only because the pregnancy was traumatic, the birth was traumatic and our postpartum was just the worst thing in the world. But also because I just had no outlet like I just had the tools that I would always use to express how I was feeling I didn't have that anymore. And it was just it was such a dark time. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. Which is the it was I would wear out over here being like we're one and done because the idea of going through that again is just yeah, we couldn't we couldn't even fathom it. It's just now that focus is almost two is the first time in years that we've been like oh, hello like to my husband. Hi. I haven't. I haven't seen you for a while. I haven't seen you for a while like he slept on the couch for a whole year. It was just Yeah, it was very hard. So I remember being him being focus being 16 months old and finally dusting like dusting off my looper and being like Oh, hello old friend. Yeah, Joy Joy choice to see these moments to catch up above God it's up to us to give them that's got me I nearly started bawling then. Oh, man. That's tough that hell yeah. How did you get through it? Literally. How did you get through it? It was it was the it was the toughest thing I have honestly ever been through. I don't even know cam has my husband has pretty well blacked out the first four or five months of focus his life. Yeah, really can't remember it. Because we were in straight survival mode. Like we couldn't leave the house like I we couldn't even walk up the street without various catatonic Lee screaming. And we used to sit on a bouncing ball for hours just to her to try and keep him like, that's when we were we didn't understand birth trauma or nervous system issues. And we just It was exhausting. And I, I don't even know how we made it through. We just were like, we just have to. It was like the mantra of survive the day, survive the day survive the day. And it felt like we and it's still to this day. It's a lot easier now. But it honestly felt like we never got a break of like Fergus was then he went from being a really distressed, massive feelings child to suddenly like, crawling so early, and then walking so early. Yeah. And so it was just like, we went from one thing to the next thing. And he was such an angry, frustrated kid because he wanted to do everything on top of like, Oh, I've got so much anger and like so much feelings and you need to and we could never pacify him. Like if we even if we tried. Even if we tried. He was like, No, you will hear me. Yeah, we used to just sit there with him. And we listened. And we listened to him. And it was like, I'm glad I took videos of it because I remember like, it was so intense. And you'd watch his little nervous system unwind. And I remember thinking to myself, I was like, Okay, we're probably only going to do this once because of this, like it's going to get better. And I and that's when I started reaching out on Instagram and I found other mothers who had gone through a very had very similar babies to Fergus Yeah. And because everybody around me all of the friends that I had that had been having babies had were experiencing nothing like we were like it was just and that was made it so hard. Because the we didn't even know a baby like Fergus was possible. Because we never seen anything like him in regards to his intensity and he his stress and his body and he never sat. He was always twitching. And oh my gosh. And so we really it was just, it was survived the day like I cried a lot at nighttime. Like I cried, I cried the first year of his life. That was the only way and we went into therapy. I started going and seeing a therapist because we were doing so much listening to Fergus his feelings that we just had to get that extra support. And we didn't have family support at all. So it was just kind of like we Yeah, it was dark. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. It's just started even though Oh, man. Yeah, it was it was definitely hard. And I remember the first time I met in person, another mother who had a baby like Fergus, and I just cried to just almost a relief like it was just me it was because I only met her in the last like two months because she lives over here. And she her experience, she gave birth to her child three days after Fergus and her child, her birth mirrored our birth and their her baby mirrored Fergus, and they might turned out that Kim and her husband had actually met each other through and aware parenting men's group online. And they so it was like, just meeting someone else who could relate to so many aspects of our parenting experience was just like, incredibly healing. And I didn't know that I needed that healing before until I met her in the flesh. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, there's someone who truly understands. Yeah, yeah. And that's thing like when you said before about, sorry, I've just realized that my camera's frozen up, but I am still here. In that position, look like or it's fun. Yeah, like the people around you that have having babies that are not experiencing what Vegas is experiencing. It'd be so easy for them to place judgment on your parenting as a reason why your baby's struggling and that it would that would be tremendously unhelpful and unkind. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I was pretty I was very lucky that the everyone around me knew that what we were going through was really different to theirs and that we were doing everything I like the everything we did to support Fergus, and then I came off with first we were like, it might it was a tongue tie. So we had his tongue tie snipped, and then we took him to osteo, cranial sacral therapy, physio, Cairo, naturopath, I came off basically all foods other than roast vegetables and chicken for four or five months, I have lunch and dinner. I used to give him a naturopathic tonic to try and help we thought it was might be a stomach. Everything, I changed the way that I was breastfeeding to try and help Oh my gosh, we went we did. We knew we knew that we were doing everything possible, like within, like, anything possible to try to help him. Yeah. Until we got to a point where we were like it, none of that it's his stress, like is so much you would look at his body. And you could tell that his nervous system was so wired. And I felt so much guilt in my body for that because I was like, he became like that when he was in my womb. That was definitely the the story that I told myself for a really long time. So I definitely think that I punished myself for that. And I took on a lot more of the listening to feelings and my husband because I was like, I did this. I have to undo it. Yeah, right. Was there a point where that became, you realized that that wasn't the truth? Um, I think over time, I just was like, even if it was me, what's done is done. Like I couldn't like I couldn't go back and change my pregnancy. Also, I was like, Yeah, I was incredibly stressed. We were, it was a pandemic. There was stuff that was happening within my family on the other side of the country that I could never, I couldn't go and be with them. We were told when we were pregnant, that Forbus was going to have Down syndrome. Like our pregnancy was really stressful. Yeah. And we'd also miscarried before Fergus, and so I was really stressed. Yeah, yeah. So even if, even if, like, there's certainly so many things that I probably could have done differently, but I just got to a point where I was like, I'm doing everything within my ability now to support his nervous system so that it can relax. I can't like I can't keep beating myself up for what the experience was for him because he's thriving now. Like I was. I was like Kim and I sacrificed a lot of ourselves and our relationship in that first year for Fergus to be How he is now. Yep. And I often think to myself, I can't even imagine the type of child that he would be now, if we hadn't supported him so much releasing the tension that he had in his body then. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What does your music look like now your music practice now that Fergus is a little older? Yeah. So he goes to date a family daycare two days a week. And so that's pretty much when I get to do anything outside of mothering. Because he is a full on child, I can't just set my Looper up. And when he's around this, he was just honestly, and it would be you'd set it up so that you could have fun with your child. Yeah. Yeah. So I Tuesdays and Wednesdays are the days that I can actually create music. And that's the days that I do all of my art and all of my work. And that's really it. Like, I sometimes do it in the evenings, after he goes to bed, because our My office is down the other end of the house, but I'm so tired. By the end of the day, he he wakes up between four and 430. Every single, every single morning, and he's ready to go. He's so turbo. Yeah, he's so turbo, that by the end of the day, you are us. You just you just absolutely exhausted. So I really, I just look forward to Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and I'm like, this morning, I was like, okay, I can actually like do all the things that it's hard. And the thing that I have struggled with the most is the fact that I used to spend my entire week. If I had any creative idea, I could write that in there, stick with it, and create and that was just, oh my gosh, it was so hard for me to have to, like lock in key ideas and be like later, later, later, later, because I was that person that was like, I'd have an idea in the morning and it would be recorded in the evening. Yeah, yeah. So that's been something the the amount of creativity that I am able to do is significantly less but because I think I went from so much to nothing. I two days a week feels like absolute heaven. I'm like, take it I'll take it oh my god one hour fantastic. Like cam can take focus out for like for an afternoon on the weekend. And I just get to stay home and do like anything to do with my art and I feel like a different woman. Yes. And so it's been like hard fought to get to this and I'm I think I'm like very grateful. I'm really quick at doing stuff now. Like even quicker than I was before. Because I go okay, you have four hours and you have to get all this done. Go like yes, like I don't I don't go with this work. I trust the idea. Trust the idea. And that's been the so it's definitely gotten me really like onto it. But right now it's two days a week that I have to do everything it's art is Chris's son so what sort of things are inspiring you at the moment with your, with your music? What are you sort of creating about, I guess, I am definitely processing my postpartum period through my music at the moment. I am writing songs that allow me to make sense of the experience that we had. Because we are kind of through that dark tunnel of that first really, almost two years of his life. I'm at a point where I'm like, Okay, I need to process what we what we went through, like I really need to, because my body still shakes when I talk about it. Like yeah, my body goes into like a trauma response when when we talk about that whole experience that we had, and I recognized that for me like therapy was great. But it didn't get everything that I needed out of my system. And so right now I'm the music that I'm recording for myself is definitely postpartum music that I'm hoping one day I can release because I know that there are other mothers that really need music that like validate is the experience that they're having? Absolutely. So that's the myself right now. That's the music I'm writing. But I'm also writing, actually, I'm running choir music. Because I have started a choir. Yes, I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, well, I have been, I think most singers that love the voice fantasize about either singing in a choir or having their own choir. And I was like, I had been thinking about it for years. I was like, three years ago, it's so great to have a choir because I used to lecture. And one of the classes that I lectured in was creative arranging and voice and we do a lot of choir stuff in that. And I was always, like, I'd love to be able to transpose some of the music that I write into acquire setting, to be a hero at like, live and just to be able to have other people get the opportunity to experience singing my, my arrangements, and I was like, Okay, so we're not in lockdown anymore. I'm not in Margaret River anymore. I don't have a newborn baby anymore. Like, I think the time is now. And I was like, um, I'll probably just like, run it from my house, maybe like 10 people, that'd be great. And then I was like, I don't have space to 10 cars. And so then I had a friend that I've met who has a shop in this particular pavilion and your Monday. She was like, why don't you hold it in the pavilion? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that mean that can hold more than 10 people? I don't know. And then I, and then I was like, Okay, maybe I'll just make the first choir session free so that people can come and have an idea about like, what is the type of music that I would create, and we were like, Let's hope for 20. And then I put the signup form, we had 70 people, oh, good for you. And I and my mind was blown, my mind was blown. I was like, oh, people want to sing. And I think the thing that I can recognize is that a lot of choirs around for an older demographic. And also, a lot of the music that they're singing isn't, if you haven't sung before, or if you haven't done in a while, it's can be quite daunting for a lot of people. And so my type of music that I write is, it's pretty repetitive, it's looping. So the parts once they have them, is a very easy for them. And I wanted it to be like focused on your part. And it might not be hard. But I want you to be able to understand how it fits within the context of the whole song, so that you can actually listen to all of the other parts going on. Yeah, and I suppose after being isolated for so long, I was just desperate to create something that allowed me to be with other people in a creative setting. Yeah. So that's kind of we had our first rehearsal on Sunday. And I think there was like 4045 people came, which was just wow, that was just amazing. And damn, they could sing. I was I went into it being like, I went into being like, I don't know, like, we'll see what level they're at. And they picked up parts so fast. I was like, Okay, I now know what type of choir I'm writing for. Yeah, and so it's just like, kind of like a dream, it's the first time that I'll be able to actually make money since becoming a mum. Because I have not really been able to work because of Fergus. And then we moved across the country. And so this is like really a really exciting and fulfilling way to actually make some kind of income for myself, as well, which is just like a added bonus, to be honest. Yes. Yeah. I gotta admit, when I when I saw that your Instagram reel that you created, you're working through that process of, do you think the terms right now and then you can tell us like, Oh, my God, I want to do that. Because it's like, no one does that everyone wants to sing, like, just crap songs, and, you know, versions of pop songs. It's like, getting back to what music is, you know, at its essence. Yeah, I had an experience years and years ago. Because through our, our vocal group, we'd get like, we go to places and learn things. And people come and visit and teach us things. And this guy just broke it all down one day said, he said, we're not going to sing anything, that we're not going to sing things with words, we're not going to, you're not gonna know this song. There's no structure to it. He didn't even give us sheet music. So straightaway, people are freaking out because this is not what we do. He gave us a chord and he just said, Pick a night in this court. And then he'd go over, like we had to hold it for a long time. So it was good way to practice our, you know, control vocal, and listen to the agility X to you. When are they going to breathe, you have to not breathe at the same time, all this sort of stuff that was held, it's good, it's good things there. But then it just go over to one part and it just say, just move your note. And so people are looking at each other like, oh, how do I move my note? What do I do? Where do I put it? I don't know what to do. And he's like, just trust yourself. Just just Just move your note. And so then people would just move their note. And then he'd come up to another group and just say, now you move on. And it was just the most freeing experience. And I still couldn't let as I'm telling you, I can see it in my head, it was so wonderful. I was like, we don't need all these bells and whistles and all this stuff that goes with it. You know, it's just getting back to the essence of it. And it was amazing. And I think the thing that I recognize is that people feel so intimidated by singing, for so intimidated by singing, because, you know, the music that you hear on the radio are either very auto tuned or from trained singers. And so there aren't many spaces that exist for them to have the opportunity to actually sing. And most people can hold a note, like, even those that believe they're tone deaf, it's just the muscle of super underdeveloped, so the more you use it, the better your ear and vocal muscle gets. Yeah. And I was just like, I want people to have the opportunity to sing something that's not a radio song, that where that you're expressing an emotion, because you're part of a whole, like really having that idea that you are a really important piece of this puzzle. And it might not be a hard part. But you actually have the opportunity to develop your ears and understand how your part is, like the context of it. Yeah, where you fit in and where we fit in. You know how important your party is like, yeah, I remember at one point being in was doing an SSA arrangement, and I was first our show, and we were literally a drone. We had a drone, honestly, one of the most important ones. Yeah, God. Yes. And I said that all the time. I say that all the time. I'm like, the Jerome note is literally one of the most important notes in almost every arrangement that I do, because of how all the other notes are affected by that one note. It's like the the level of tension that you can create from a moving parts and how that one note actually influences. Yeah, yeah, I, there was a group on Sunday that for one song, their note was a drone note and I was like, I want you to take this opportunity to feel what this drone note actually is here to make you feel like why is that drone note here? Like if without it? What are the other parts sound like? Yeah, yeah, it's and I, you almost as if you listen to my music, there's almost always a drone note in the songs. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's so important. It is so important. And then, years later, obviously, years and years and years later, my son now plays the bagpipes. And when you hear it, when you hear those drones fire up, they're like, Yeah, I get this, like, they're the heart and soul. Like they're the bits that you know, the hold everything together. And I always hated how people, they played, like these jokes on our toes like this, the joke like the sopranos says to the alto, the melody and they go, Oh, I don't get it. And they're like, Yeah, course you don't get it, like you never get the tune. But it's like, the tune is the most boring part of Yeah, it's always underneath that just drives it. Well, it's like that's the when I think about harmony, it's like, it's really easy for most singers to sing a third above. The third below is the like the harmony that creates like the most important texture, but it's also the hardest for someone's ear to actually be able to hear. So it's like something that I always work on. It's like the you've got your melody and you've got your Harmony above, but that harmony below is what gives like the rich texture of your sound. So low voices are just like, so important to me, because of the impact that they have on a harmony. Because it's like I when I think of harmonies, I think of like, a really important balance. And if you have too many harmonies that sit higher in a register, your your balance is like off put and suddenly, the top harmonies are starting to really ping out rather than it being like a really perfect balance. Yeah, and I mean, the only reason I am so obsessive over those because I've spent so much time listening to harmony, and so much time listening to how harmony impacts me emotionally. And when I go into a song, I'm always like, how do I want people to feel when they hear this and being able to pick notes that I know will elicit those emotions, but that just comes with like, a lot of a lot of time. Yeah, I think a real interest in in being able to express some like something audibly with no words. It's also like it's when, when it doesn't have words, people's minds don't have to think so much. Because what I often find is people who aren't necessarily singers, they get really stressed about having to remember words if you're not using a book. And what I found is with singers that aren't, you know, choir singers, like haven't had that type of training, their head will be so down in their book trying to remember their part that they're actually missing half What's the point of singing with other people? Yeah, that's it, it becomes this insular thing that you're just focusing on yourself. Yeah, yeah. And so that's just why I do it's like, quite simply, it's for them to be up at around each other. Yeah. My God My says, the memory of my legs. When you said before, about listening to each other, I feel like that is the most underrated part of part seeing people get so focused on themselves, like, and you said about heads in books. But I could, I could literally for years seeing other people's parts, because you spent so much time working out where you fit in, and perhaps why you fit in to this where you see as part of his whole group, it's so important, and I think it teaches you so much about, like life skills, you know, listening to each other. When When do you need to back off? When is it, you know, time for you to come forward? And you're blending and listening to those around you like that? When I said before about when you take your breath like, well, we're not good at listening as a society. Yeah, absolutely. It's when like, it's really easy to see that we're not very good at listening to others, because we're always thinking about the thing that we're going to say next. And so it's like, singing in a group l gives you the opportunity to, and it kind of forces you to have to listen to others. And it's like, it's why I make it's why I do things really specifically of not having like books to read from and making parts simple and repetitive. Because I want to give people the opportunity to work on their listening skills. Because then they just have that like ability to be like, Oh, I could switch parts I could. Like I can hear their part. If someone next to me is struggling to hear their part. I can help them find their part. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it definitely definitely oh my gosh, I remember singing in choirs, and your head would be down. And you'd just be following the words. And I just be following the music writing on the page. And I wouldn't be caring if I was singing too loud. Like that's the other thing is like, yeah, everyone wants to be the soloist. Yeah, that's like you go okay, but you're part of a hole. Which means if you can't hear the Alto or you can't hear the sopranos, then you're already singing too loud. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it teaches you so much doesn't Yeah, I think it's such a beautiful opportunity. Like, I love the spaces that choirs can, like the right type of wires can create. Put that caveat in there? That's so exciting. I'm so pleased you're doing that. I think it's a wonderful expansion of your, you know, sharing your, say your wave of music, but it's like, yeah, it can't you know what I mean? It kind of like no, I do. It's like my, the way that I write like I'm giving it. And the thing that I was told over and over on Sunday was it's like, people were really looking forward to having an opportunity to sing the type of music that I write. Yes. And I was like, oh, yeah, well, that's that that meant so much to me, because it's like, as we've said, I've spent so long worrying that the type of music that I wrote wasn't didn't fit anywhere. And then to have people be like, Oh, I've seen these parts at home, or I listened. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, absolutely. I sing. I sing these harmonies by myself in the shower. I'm like, You kidding me? Like, I yeah, it's just been such a beautiful validation of what I have chosen to be as an artist. Yes, absolutely. And I would love to be able to, like, I would want to create a choir in Sunshine Coast, but I want to take like a live loops workshop and be able to take what I do to a day long workshop somewhere in other places that because other people would love the opportunity to sing these types of arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, it is really it's a really exciting project. And I'm just like, feel so fulfilled, but it feels really like in alignment with what I do. Yeah. And I think that's what I've been trying to find is like, I don't want to teach people singing how to sing well, like I don't have no interest in teaching technique. I'm like, there are so many singing teachers out there. Like I want to create spaces where people get to experience harmony, because harmony has had such a profound impact on me. And my ability to cope with life. Yeah. Oh, that's why I'm so pleased for you. Honestly, it's just sounds crisp, I can be my heart swell. You know, it's just wonderful. I really I'm really, really pleased for you. And I'm very jealous that I'm not there. I'm I just have to come down the coast. Do you come down a long way? Right to the bottom of the mainland. Sorry, just on that if there's payment listening that are in your neck of the woods So what's the best way for them to get in touch if they're interested in in a bit more, we will be social media. So my instagram handle is the dot Edwina dot Masson, Ma, Double S O n. That's where pretty much everything that I do everything that I offer, all the links to all of my work is that's kind of where I play at the moment. So that would be that that would be the spot and just message me or email me any, like, beautiful girl up? I'm pretty, I'm pretty easy to contact. That's awesome. Yep. So we're just about to start term one. So it's going to run in terms, and at the end of each term, we're going to have like a little concert. And so that's kind of where my focus is at creatively focuses. Yeah, one thing at a time choir, establish the choir. Yeah. And on that, I think it is important for people to have a goal to be to perform, because I've been at times in a group where you don't have any, you're just singing, it's like, that's lovely. We love it. But to be able to then actually put yourself up there is like a whole new kettle of fish, you know, for people to get to witness the work that they've put in, you know, I mean, I'm just like, I really believe. Yeah, and because then it gives other people permission to do the same thing. It's like, this isn't a bunch of people that have grown up to having singing, training or singing in choirs, but then when you see them sing together as a group, and they can see how they've improved from the start of the term to the end of the term. Because it's important for me to be able to teach them technique and teach them how to braid properly and teach them how to warm their voice up. It's, they would be remiss of me to like, just get them singing and not care about their vocal health. Yeah. I even heard people saying at choir, they could hear the difference in their voice from the start of that two hours to the end of the two hours, because of the muscle, like because of them actually using that muscle. Yeah. And it's like, I want to give people the opportunity one to hear the work that these people have been putting in, but to then maybe even try it themselves. Absolutely. And see that it's actually it's not this way out scary thing that's only accessible to people who've been, you know, tracing. elite group of people. Yeah, that's how it definitely can feel. Yes, yeah. And so and then when you give people the opportunity to actually sing with other people, you realize that most people can sing everybody has a voice, like, Yeah, everybody has a voice. Yeah, there's people that tell me they can't see I'm like, you just don't know how to use your instrument. Literally. That's me, you know, every muscle a thing in your body that we all have, you know, it's just like some people are born with the ability to run faster than others before they've ever been trained. And then they choose because they have, they're better at that party, that muscle is more developed, then they might choose to become a runner. Some people's vocal cords, or their ears are born more developed with more of an aptitude for music. But it just because the starting point is different doesn't mean you don't have the ability to work to be as good or whatever, it's just a muscle a muscle that can be stressing it literally and you learn that that's really obvious when when you've been a singer for a while, and you get some training and you go Holy shit, I can do this as well. I didn't know that, you know? Yeah, it's like I don't sound like I sound like I did when I was 15 You know what I mean? Like I had a good voice when I was 15. But I sound nothing like I did then because I've had training so I've just worked on the muscle and the more you do it, the more flexibility the muscle has and the more agility it has. And yeah, so I definitely believe in like just give it a shot and I want to create spaces that give the people the the opportunity to safely do that. Yeah, no, I'm good on Yeah, that's it's so inspiring. I'm really pleased for you and I'm gonna follow the journey along on your Instagram I'm really really pleased for you that's wonderful too chatting with you it's been lovely. I feel energized and light and bubbly. Now I feel like I need to go record something for how Yeah, that's what I'm gonna be doing I would be like, like, peace out. I'll get my recording studio open. Yeah, thank you so much for having me these I always value having a space opera like opportunity to share my journey and to share my story with others because I I know that my experience and what I do can hopefully make other people feel less alone. And and so I I am very thankful to to you for having a space or Thank you. Thank you and I'm frozen still, but I'm sorry. No. I know I like you face has been frozen in some great position. It's hilarious, isn't it? Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or subscribing to the pod Fast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom ee the day Hi mean I know lives for was I must was five okay I will see you God

Season 1 Special Season 1 recap Special Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts A look back at my guests during Season 1 and a reflection on the origins of the podcast. The seeds for this podcast were sown early in 2021 when I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home. I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realising that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mum who was a friend of mine and find out just how she was doing it. From them I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how other mums are doing it ! Thus the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mum, and a few dads too, over the course of these past 6 months. I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perception and shift my thinking on a number of issues, and I hope this has been the same for you. Here’s a little wrap up of some of my favourite quotes from the episodes which made up Season 1, 2021 I hope you enjoy. Connect with the podcast here https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to this special episode of The Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make that art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia, I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. The seeds for this podcast was sown early in 2021. When I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home, I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realizing that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mom who was a friend of mine, and find out just how she was doing it. And from then I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how they're doing it. And also what other mums are doing. Thus, the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mums, and a few dads too. Over the course of these past six months, I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things, about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perceptions, and shift my thinking on a number of issues. And I hope this has been the same for you. Here's a little wrap up of some of my favorite quotes from the episodes that made up season 120 21 I hope you enjoy. What's interesting to me with hindsight, perhaps is that we'd hit this sort of point where our mothers had been the first generation of the second wave feminists. And so we'd been told a lot about what our expectations for our life could be, you know, what, that we could have it all, you know, all of those messages that that we were getting, and the sense of freedom and ambition that we all have, and should have. And then suddenly we have children and realize how compromised that can be. And that that is an age old problem and not really an easy problem to solve. So feminism or for you know, no matter how liberated you are. So the fact is we we love our children, and we want to be there for them. And our children love us and I desperately attached to us. And therefore finding space and time for something that we want to do for ourselves is incredibly difficult. Yeah, I don't know, I just it wasn't for me, not the newborn thing. I've loved their ages now, but would literally prefer to walk the depths of hell than have a newborn again. I'm not even kidding. Yeah, you can. I'd also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about. I think it's good if they can see that. Those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lining me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children. I changed I let go of it. I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So I kind of feel like you know I need with the time that I've got especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go away. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you. You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry, don't stress ratio are you here ratio me? Yeah Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before Saturday nights at shadows or little adventures I used to do back in the day you know is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mom, you have to let go of that life. Yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids law. Development and their their health and well being is above above yours Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant. You can't be unwell. You've got to be that for therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed for my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Have you feel that mum guilt? Oh, it is real is definitely I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing his job. I was like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her hour that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own. Like, where you're being critical of others, where you like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. I can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle the same time my writing have changed? Definitely. Yeah. I have a collection of songs I have a new body of work that I'm I've started recording. And it's it's very much inspired by motherhood and and relationships with my own mother and, and grief and, and yeah, identity and belonging and home. And I don't think I would have explored those themes. Pre children. I don't I don't pray children. My songs weren't all about love and breakups. You know, a number that were and then under that still I you know, but I don't think I would have been inspired to explore those really personal relationships, family relationships, had I not experienced that enlarging of your family, you know? To me, being a mum is the best thing I have ever done. It is just the biggest blessing. And I'm always it's always in the back of my head, that they're only this little months, like they're growing so fast. And it might not be everyone's cup of tea or how they want to do things. But I have just loved being there and doing that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I'd have 100 kids if I could. I'm not 100 Actually that that would. Yeah, maybe 90. If you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be Alson you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt. But I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today where I feel like I could be doing better. I should be making a different decision. I think it's I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom. Is that what they call it? Where Yeah, yeah. Are you just real? sacrifice yourself, for somebody else. And yeah, it's really interesting because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being. It's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood and, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt I just sacrificed myself. I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids, and you seem to be putting everything into the children, I know, from seeing it firsthand, through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and your wonder like, now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about, she loves, so we make time to fit her, you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life, if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion, and you've got nowhere to you know, to do it, and it builds up and you know, probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with the children and just having this double life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you. If it doesn't have you don't have an outlet. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel, some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall, he's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby, like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself, what are we going to set up so I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age, and kicking myself for not trying at least. So I said, he said, the kids, you're an amazing mum, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Because you can work in a cafe, absolutely, if that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing. Because they're learning from me, don't just stand still, because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. It's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me seeing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, and they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that, yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter, that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly, that you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around. You know, you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say I'm not a I'm not a A person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I am not that person. I work I thrive off work, I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a man is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mom does not stop you from being an amazing musician and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so Oh, you're back at gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm playing better than I was beforehand, so that the mother guilt of putting yourself, you know, at head of your children, sometimes, I've definitely grown learned over time not to have that quite so much. I think as the kids were younger I did, but especially that like when my youngest son in high school, I was like, No, you know, what, I'm okay, I deserve to have some allocated time. And to actually let the whole family know, right? Well, this is actually something that's really important to me, and I'm going to make this happen. And it was actually really nice to see the support that they gave me to write Yeah, really, even my, my middle boyfriend, he would say, he was actually said to me, I'll be really inspiring me with the work that you're doing. And, you know, that's the biggest thing for me ever. And my husband's really supportive, as well just, you know, constantly telling me that he's proud of me, which is really lovely. That definitely helps with not feeling guilty. If I, you know, had some space and time through the week to, to focus on my artwork and to be quiet in the studio, then absolutely, that reflects in the way that I am with, with my kids in the sense that I think it helps me to be more present. When I am with them, I'm not so much thinking about that. It allows me time and space, I guess, to really focus on them. So I think they shifted from thinking that they all these different things take away from each other, but they don't they all support each other and work together. Like I said, as part of an integrated life. So that's been a big shift for me, and, and being able to shift my thinking around there. And I think it's helped me manage my expectations. I guess I have myself. And then when I found out it was twins, it was like, all the anxiety kicked in. Because I felt like, well hang on. What does that mean, for me returning to work can I return to I won't be able to return to work, you know. And then you have all the stress about how my, how's my body going to change with two it was, I felt great with one baby and I was happy with being pregnant. But then once I found out it was twins, it did really slow me and I had to really adjust to getting excited about it and not being too anxious. So I'm very lucky that I had twins. And I think that now and I love their bond and I love being a twin mom. But I didn't you know, I didn't initially I really I feel bad that I think that but I really was upset and I was really anxious. So I had pretty bad anxiety when I was pregnant actually, once I found out I think it's also about making a space for yourself. Like making art, or even just making stuff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important. As an adult when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time more. It becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an absolutely it's like mental health you know, and it's and it's so connected with looking yeah looking after yourself. And so for me it's very much part of my identity I think when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent if you are completely into the next few years being, you know, in a state of creative upheaval If you commit to that, then you know it. It changes it changes everything. You know, you can't it's not possible to to have those those sort of positive relationships without making sacrifices. How do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I, I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have, have actually had a lot of flack. Over the years for I think I got, I got told at one point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment? I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess, that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, I had had an identity, I was a health care worker. And then I became a mom, and then I wasn't that anymore. And so you know, people would be like, Oh, what do you do? And I'd be like, Oh, I'm a stay at home mom. And so they would automatically say, oh, then okay, what is your husband do? Which I'm just like, it just felt terrible. To me. It felt terrible to me. I went through an identity crisis, really where I was just like, What am I besides a mom, like, it didn't feel good to me, I felt really, really lost during that kind of transition, because I didn't really know. And like, just, I mean, I'm not saying that, like, just being a mom isn't enough. But for me, it didn't. It just didn't. I just felt lost. You know. So yeah, I mean, it is really important to me to feel like I have something that is just mine. I spend a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from families. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing with a foreign when now that I'm doing a bit more work here in that Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and can try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had and realized it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble. And, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and pay. You know, I have huge admiration for you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time. organically, disclaim all that stuff is so much different for the mother. It's just this just the ladies thing for fathers, it does change. But nowhere near as much as a mother is going through all that sort of identity is just trying to separate motherhood, you can get lost in the water murky. But it's definitely very important to have those two separate because I think you're just running yourself silly and you lose maybe a lot of that passion that you might have wither away a little bit. Because you just feel like that you've got to put family as a priority. And then this is exhausting and draining. It's easy to just go in there. One day I'll get there but I think if you can find the time to even if it's a little bit just to separate them and educate that individuality neutrality variable. It's not just that monkey. It's like, it's the wife guilt. It's the brain guilt. It's the WHEN DO WE it's very hard to make time for everybody. I think now I think more so it's important for me to realize that not to think of it as mum guilt anymore, but, but realize that I think they need to have a better version of mum. And if Mum needs to be in that creative space, then they're gonna get a better version of me.

Claire Tonti Australian musician and podcaster S4Ep97 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Claire Tonti to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne VIC and a mum to 2 children. Claire was right into music in her early 20s, and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album Matrescence which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long covid and being at her lowest point mentally and physically . Matrescence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through post partum and a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing. Claire hosts 2 podcasts, currently Tonts and Suggestible with her husband, and she has previously hosted Just Make The Thing , She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, podcaster and youtuber. Claire is an ambassador for C.O.P.E. and The Giget Foundation and is so passionate about supporting mothers, You can tell Claire is a podcaster/interviewer, as she somehow turns the tables on me during this episode and at times it is hard to tell who is interviewing who! This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode. Matrescence is the physical, emotional, hormonal and social transition to becoming a mother. This episode contains mentions of post natal depression and anxiety, pre natal anxiety, birth trauma, post natal depletion, Claire - website / instagram / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Claire, tracks from her recent album Matrescence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast. It's great to have you here from wherever you're listening, whether it be Australia, United States or in Ireland. This week, I'm pleased to welcome Claire tante to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom to two children. Claire was right into music in early 20s and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album called muttrah essence, which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long COVID And being at her lowest point mentally and physically. Her album muttrah essence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through postpartum. And a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing Claire hosts to podcast currently taunt and suggestible with her husband, and she's previously hosted just make the thing. She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, a podcast and a YouTuber. Claire is an ambassador for cope and the Gidget foundation and she is so passionate about supporting mothers. When you listen to this today, you can tell that Claire is a podcaster and an interviewer as she somehow manages to turn the tables on me during this episode. And at times, it's hard to tell who exactly is interviewing her. This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode with both Claire and myself sharing a lot of intimate details regarding our childbirth experience and postpartum. This episode contains mentions of postnatal depression, anxiety, prenatal anxiety, birth trauma, and postnatal depression. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Claire's music tracks taken from her brand new album called mitr essence, which is available on all of the streaming platforms now, we can head to the link in the bio to purchase them. Please take care of yourselves and enjoy the episode bye. It's been two knees hands yours and mine. beaten, beaten in time. Same rhythm, same kind cause the light brown things clickety clack in and trains long the music came to heart beat the same. Well thank you, Claire, thank you for coming on. Appreciate you being part of the podcast. It's a pleasure to welcome you today. Oh, thank you so much. It's such a joy to be here. I've been really looking forward to this. Oh, good. Excellent. I actually I have been looking forward to change you too. Because as a musician, I love talking to musicians. I love talking to everybody. But you know, it's always good to converse in something that you know. Yeah, you kind of get the weird and wild well don't you like being amused though, and all the different like personality stuff and egos and just like the magic of it too, you know, I guess right? It's really nice. And also to say someone who else is a mom and a musician today, I think to kill a hybrid. Yes, yes. It's its own whole new world really isn't it? Absolutely is exactly right. All right, Alison. Yeah. So yes, you're a musician. People know that now. But you're also, you're also a podcaster. And I think you do too to podcast. Is that right? I do. Yeah, we're not Well, like I think a lot of parents and mothers particularly would say, it's a total mess or time and a rolling feast. But it's also been so much fun, I sort of, I started, just make the thing with my first podcast, which is how to start a thing and keep on making it. And that was an experiment to kind of find my voice. And if I could make a thing, I wasn't doing music. At that point, I had two little kids and running a podcast company doing all the behind the scenes, because my partner's a podcaster, and a YouTuber. And so after I was a primary school teacher, and then went on maternity leave, I sort of started there, helping him to monetize his show, and then other local comedians around the tracks. And I had convinced myself that I wasn't a creative person, but that my role in life was to help other people to be creative. And that's what I loved about teaching and what I kind of built my world as. And for some reason, didn't think I deserved my own space for creativity. And music was certainly the biggest and scariest thing for me. And so I also convinced myself that it wasn't really something I could do, and I wasn't good enough at it. So I probably stopped did music in early 20s, and then came back to it. And so yeah, all that is to say, I started with just make this thing which was just this kind of little dipping my toe in the water. And then I started suggestible, which is a recommendation show with my husband, where we recommend things watch, read and listen to we argue every week, he brings his post apocalyptic style was like, like vibe. And I bring my books written by mainly women, and rom coms, and we kind of like discuss it, he actually, to be fair, he also brings a lot of content made by diverse voices. And he's got a really big depth of knowledge in that space. So it's actually been a beautiful show to do. A lot of people listen with their partners, which has been really beautiful as well and recommend recipes, and that kind of things, that sort of comedy, and recommendations. And then Tonsai began couple of years ago now. And that's my interview show where I look at emotions really. And I talk to people about their stories. I really am interested in women's stories and diverse voices, activists, writers, experts, and thinkers, and deeply feeling humans really. And that's been the biggest joy to create that show. I'm currently working on Season Four at the moment. And interestingly, as I've grown in this space, I've found that I'm now talking more and more about women's health and hormones, interviewing women about chronic stress and how to make it all work as mothers even I interviewed Jane Harper, and that was a thing we talked about for ages, which was how to deal with mother guilt, and the complex nature of all of that stuff. So even the people you think that have it all figured out? Definitely don't. That was a long winded way of saying yes. No, that's fabulous. I love that. So I can breathe easy. I want to making space from me, like where Paul's pie. But what you've done is breaking me down so far. I can't get up. Because you so call now. Just call taunt is obviously like a play on your username tante. Where is that surname from was what's the heritage of that? So yeah, my full surname is Tonti Filippini. But I just shortened it to 20. And then my friends call me Tom. It's been a nickname that's been around for a while. So that's why I use that. I love it. Yeah, my dad didn't tell you. Yeah, cool. And I love that, like what I'm finding through this podcast, it's just so awesome to talk to other people. Like just like I was saying before about, you know, the mother, the mother, musician, like there's all these different worlds. And, like, I'm discovering so much stuff that I never knew before and learning so many things aren't even new and seeing different perspectives. And I guess you'd experienced that too with talking to so many different people. Yeah, absolutely. I've learned so much. I think that now I've released this album called nitro essence, which I started writing at the beginning of last year. And I realized I came to music after long COVID And I was really at my lowest point and I've been speaking and talking to women for a really long time. And by that point, and listening to a lot of different voices and artists and writers and creatives, but not actually really stepping into my identity as an artist, but I think all of that listening and all of those conversations kind of came together for me at that time, and when I couldn't watch TV I couldn't, I was really so depleted after having my second baby during COVID. And also homeschooling and doing all the things that we all did during that time, particularly if you had kids that everyone had their own struggles, and, you know, as musicians and artists as well, it was a really, really challenging time for the industry overall. But yeah, when I got long COVID, and had postnatal depletion, and I really just could parent and rest, I couldn't work and then use it kind of came back into my life, there's a way to listen. And then I developed this cough and as a podcast or a coffee is not very good to have like real coffee feeds. And so I decided to go and get some singing lessons. And I was still telling myself it was just because I had this cough that I needed to figure out. And then very quickly after I started singing lessons with my teacher, Bianca fan, she saw my songwriting, and said, Did you know you're a songwriter? And what are you doing with them. But I do think so many of the songs that came from that place, I took them to her nephew, they heal, and he's a music producer. And initially, it was going to be two songs we'd record and very quickly, it exploded to be 11 songs about I didn't realize what my tresses was at that point. But it was really just about what I was feeling and going through. A lot of those songs are inspired by the people and the women, particularly who I've listened to fake overseas. And I think that's the beauty of podcasting, you get these kind of lovely microcosms of connection with people that you may never speak to otherwise, doing work that you really admire or that you're interested in, you learn so much. And then as an artist, and as a creative, you almost like absorb it or like a sponge, and it sits there somebody in the back of your brain, I always think I have like a spider that lives in the back of my brain collecting things. You know, just like a bow a bird. You don't have a lot of time to like, we wait for the right moon to come out in the sky to like write your beautiful sonnet or whatever. So it just sits there collecting things while I'm busy doing other stuff. And I think for me, it was like 15 years of busy doing other stuff. So when I finally let that spider out, sounds strange, but you know, it was suddenly like, excellent. Here's all these things and all the stuff that you've learned and heard about from other women and also your own journey. So yeah, yeah, podcasting, it's a magic space to be well, I can definitely relate to that. Like, I found that by hearing other people's perspective on their creativity, it allowed me to be a lot more free with mine and not have these, like I'm can be quite a perfectionist and have the standards that things have got to be a particular way, which is good in some respects with my music. But then in other, like my painting, I never thought I could paint or draw because it was it didn't look very good. So that was my thing, I won't do it, because I can't do it sort of thing. And then just, I mean, it sounds really obvious, but there's a lot of different kinds of painting, but because I've never really delved into it, or talk to anyone about it. It just was the one of these things I just didn't do. And just by talking to people and realizing that you can do whatever you want, like, oh, wow, this is great. And so now I enjoy that as part of like, it's almost like a bit of a self care sort of thing, where if I'm processing, you know, as situation or emotions, whatever i i will often just be drawn to the painting side of things. So it's become a really good tool for me, you know, to look after myself and my mental health. So yeah, like, I would never have tried that or done that if I hadn't talked to so many people about it. So that's been really good for me. Yeah. I think that it's so magical. And having that kind of tactile outlet that we've the paint in the color, we can just imagine that would be so soothing. Yeah, and I do really believe deeply that creativity in the arts is a big tool in the toolkit of healing. And I think and particularly matriculants, for those who don't know, is a word that describes the complex transition to motherhood that happens through adolescence, similarly to adolescence. So if we think of hormone to use identity crisis, body changes, social networks change, who we are as a person shifts, the people, the way people see us in the world shifts when we become an adolescent. It's the same in retracements. And I think there's a really powerful way that art and creativity can really help women and people who give birth to move through that transition. And I think in our culture, it's often underrated and undervalued. Yeah, absolutely. I thought it would be it was the last thing I tend to when actually, it was a thing that worked for me. And it's not as tight. You know, obviously, there was diet related changes and medication is also really amazing and going to see medical professionals but yeah, creativity cannot be underestimated for effective. Yeah. Are you watching? Video thing? Yeah, I don't know, more than rolling. Blame news. Five. DNA, me, and just on that, like, the Moto essence has become a word that's very common now, I suppose. And it's only been in the last few years, I think that it's really been something that people talk about and refer to in that way. And I can't feel like, you know, you're talking about the teenager is a similar sort of comparative time with all the changes, like, I feel like we give teenagers a break, like, we say, oh, you know, they're really struggling, because it's this time, you know, the hormones are changing, and we seem to give them a lot of, sort of give them a break. But when it comes to mums that are struggling, it's like, well, that's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to have a baby, you know, like, it's, it's almost like suck it up, because that's your body. And like you're a woman, that's what you're supposed to do. So just do it. You know, do you feel like we said, that's not a feeling that is not a culture, it's the culture we live in. And it's not the culture that exists across the globe. I know, for example, in India and in China, and a lot of other traditions Bali have a lot of traditions like this to a woman when she gives birth, particularly for the first time is seen as a newborn, just like a newborn is, there's a phrase the newborn mother that I love, because really you are your child, like you don't know yet what you're doing yet, you don't know how to feed your baby yet you don't know what this new body is even going to look like or what it's going to mean, there's milk coming out your boobs, how did that even happen? And often, even in the lead up, that the word mature essence should be spoken about before women or people who give birth even embark on parenthood. It's so it's a really huge transition to make. And in our culture, we just push women out of the hospital after two days and say figure it out yourself. And you'll be right. And part of it is underfunding. But I also think it's a loss of village. And it's also a lot of and a devaluing of wisdom and knowledge that used to be passed down through generations. And so in those traditions, like there's a beautiful woman who works at our local bookstore, Mira and I went in there with my album, and we were talking and she said, yeah, when I was becoming a mother, my mother moved in with me for 40 days, I wasn't allowed to leave the bed, she brought all the food to me really warming foods cleaned, my house cooked, we had a whole lot of people coming in. All I had to do was feed my baby, and then and then they would put her down. And so she said during the pandemic, she prepared her bags to do that for her own daughter, and then couldn't go because of COVID, which and there's just so many micro mini stories of tragedy through COVID. And but one of the big overarching stories is that all the problems that were there inherent with the lack of care from others, a lack of honoring of their journey, the lack of knowledge around what they actually need, and let me tell you, it's not nurseries and Pinterest boards and special bugaboo prams, it's, it's psychology before they even get to start to become pregnant. It's really knowing themselves. It's understanding they can advocate themselves in the birth for themselves. In the birthing room, they can be in charge of their birth and not handed over to the doctors who technically know best in inverted commas. They know their body, and they know what they need, and should be empowered to know all of their options. So that when they get in there, if there's someone in that room who isn't being supportive of them, they can tell them to eff off. Yeah, yeah. And also then moving from there having postpartum planning. So that's where I hadn't even heard of the word doula when I had my kids. And then I think I thought the word doula was like a boozy thing that maybe Gwyneth Paltrow did in Hollywood. Like, why would you do that? When actually it's just a woman who understands the process of birth and can advocate for you if your partner doesn't know and often, your partner is a bloke and he is just as much in the dark as you are. So having someone there that can also then come and care for you afterwards if you don't have that village support. So all of that is to say that essence was coined in the 1970s by Donna Raphael. And she's an amazing anthropologist, and then brought back in kind of the early 2000s, by early Athan, and she was an academic based in Canada. And she brought that term back, but it's coming back again. And I think it's really because COVID highlighted just how ginormous, the problems are in a culture that doesn't care for mothers and honors them in the way they should be. And now, with this knowledge that I have, I totally get what I went through when I have my kids. And I just think so many women, when they hear that term go, Ah, okay, it wasn't just that I needed to suck it up. And I couldn't hack it. And, you know, I couldn't be that perfect mother and I was good. I thought I'd love it every minute. And I did in all conversely, I love it, but I'm different to who I was. And maybe my friendships look different, and my body looks different. And this understanding that I think he's powerful, I will say as well. And I wonder if you resonate with this that just like some people went through adolescence, and we're bloody great at it, like just knew what to wear. You had to go to I don't know, neither right parties to go to seem to have less glamorous photos of them, you know, just by party. Love. Yeah, really rocky adolescence, like, very awkward times, terrible outfits, incredibly nerdy. And I love that girl now so much, because I think she was so unique and weird and great and kooky and wrote a lot of poetry and just thought didn't know who she was in. Glorious. But I just think that's the same for women, like, go through retracements and love it, and some are gonna struggle on it's a huge spectrum. And then on the other end of it is a question I've been asking a lot I don't have an answer to and I'm not an expert. I'm just a mother and a musician with my stories. But what is a same reaction to a really difficult time in your life in contrast, and so what's a very difficult for tresses versus what is clinical diagnosis of postnatal depression or psychosis, and things that need medical intervention. And I think it's a really gray area. And something I've been speaking to professionals about now. And I'm interested to talk more about on my podcast because I think some of the rocky part of that early motherhood is just like, of course, you find these hard because it is bloody hard. But then there's also a line there, when is it appropriate? And medication and other options are very fast. So like Coca Cola in summer like soap is a pattern no matter what though, as your last flowers in bloom found the blue love if you don't become an ambassador for Coke, and also the Gidget foundation. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm really passionate about letting women and people out there know about their services. So cope has an amazing e directory where you can put in your postcode, and it will show you all of the services available in your area for whatever you need in that early parenthood, Merit Peri natal space. And lots of research. There's also a great app that you can download on your phone. So you can do screening for postnatal depression, privately, rather than having to go to a maternal health nurse necessarily. And there's wonderful maternal health nurses too, but can often be very confronting, and sometimes you feel a bit judged. And so doing that privately is great. So Koch is amazing. And the Gidget Foundation, have free counseling available online. So you can call a number and speak to someone immediately, as do Canada. And I would really encourage anyone listening to this to suspect they have a friend who's struggling a family member who's struggling, if they're struggling, it doesn't matter how long ago you had your baby, either. That or whatever you went through in the kind of perinatal mental health space, those surfaces and services are available. So anyway, I keep giving you very long winded answers. No, it's really good. Because you say you, you there's so many points you've raised, and I keep writing them down to come back to which is it's cool. But yeah, thank you for mentioning that. And that's really cool that you're you're an ambassador for them because I feel like I was actually talking to someone yesterday, and I can't even think who they were this is really bad when you talk to so many people. It all runs around in your head but it's same thing like I hacked back to my days of 15 years ago, prenatal class was basically teaching you how to watch a video of a natural birth. Just to freak you out a bit more and to scare all the dads. And basically the extent of you know, they taught you how to change a nappy, they gave you hints on settling, which were one of them was run your baby's pram over, like a lump on the floor, like, and I was like, Okay, now I realize how dumb that is. Sorry, not dumb, unhelpful. Some of it was. And the they got a guy to come and talk from Beyond Blue. And all I remember from him, was saying, I It's good going to be a bit rough. Yeah, so good luck with that. Like, I literally remember him saying, so good luck with that. And I just thought afterwards when, like, this is the culture of what you're giving mothers, this is what this is normal to give mothers and yeah, looking back on that I think my God, no one has struggled and just about lost it, you know. But the other thing you said, too, and I was actually thinking that the same thing when you were talking about it about the fine line, or the difference between just having a really crappy experience in that mattress since period? Or when does it get to that point of that, you know, needing medical intervention or whatever. And I was thinking the same thing. I was like, Wow, that sounds like my first experience. With my first son. I kept saying, like, my husband said to me, I reckon you've got that thing. They taught to be able to impregnate a class and like, No, I don't, I don't have postnatal depression, I'm just having a bad day, you know, and everything I could justify, I could say all night, just because I had a bad sleep all night. It's just because he didn't sit or, you know, I was telling myself these stories. And I even managed to slip through the cracks with the nurse that come round to and did like one of those cute hands or whatever. They are like the screener. You know, have you felt like this? Like, oh, I think it was like every day for the past two weeks. I was like, No, I haven't not for the past two weeks. But it's been a lot of days. But because I didn't meet those criteria. I was like, see, I have fun. So yeah, I didn't like that. There's still a lot to be said for that sort of intervention as well. But I wonder if that was it was just a really difficult period. And then because I had the next one there seven years between my kids for that reason of harrowing, not the greatest start, but I got really bad postnatal depression, and I was medicated and and almost hospitalized. But we didn't do that, because I wouldn't have been able to keep breastfeeding. So yeah, you sort of wonder if that first experience had have been a little more positive and more like sort of picked up by professionals or whatever that are maybe could have avoided the second one. I don't know. I'm so sorry, Alison. I mean, I had a really, it's so hard. Yeah. And do you know what I think too, I think we have to really kind to ourselves, because like with each baby, it's a new start of matriculants each time. Yeah. Which I don't think people say that you think I've had one? So the second one easy, I've done it like I'm warning, you know, right out. There's a difference between having no, it's not. And then the difference between having one and two is massive. And so and for each woman, it's really different, or each person I should say especially and I'm just so sorry, that happened to you, I think it's much more common than we think. And I know now, the rates are even higher from COVID. And I do think that this system is just failing women emotionally and spiritually, particularly, I think it's really undervalued just how important it is to really care from others. And that caring that needs to begin in the early part of your life really, before you even start to have kids and then through the transition in the hospital setting and then afterwards, and then the spaces that are okay to for you to actually be able to talk about how you feeling I agree. I I suspect I had postnatal but it went undiagnosed for that reason, because it was like, Are you feeling like this everyday? Well, no, not really. And also, you've asked me so many questions about my baby and he wasn't putting on weight and he had really bad reflux and I was advocating so much to him. I felt so scared that they would be like, well, she's a bad mother. She's not doing well. He's not putting on weight. And now she's like, What feeling like this and you just feel like you can't be honest. And even if you are honest, what support is there for you? Yeah, you know, is really, really super challenging. But I think the first step is talking to someone about it and having someone on the phone I think I didn't know at the time. That for me having someone to reach out to on the phone who's like a qualified counselor who can talk to you? And they're not, you know, without judgment where you can be honest and yeah, and all that stuff and just being real about the fact that Yeah, it's really hot. Yeah. Was like, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine having another child. Like, I just kept seeing myself in difficult situations. Like when I think about having a baby, it was all native. And that went on for, you know, almost seven years. Like it was just, I couldn't get past that. It was bizarre. Yeah. But now I've gotten two of them. And it's wonderful. Yeah. As I've gotten older, how old are they now? So 15 and nearly eight. So yeah, it's, I wouldn't recommend seven years age gap, if you're deliberately thinking of age gaps. They get on they get on well, at different times, depending on who's in charge, or who wants to do a particular thing. Because they are, you know, completely different places in their lives can be a little tricky. But I think the older that. Digby, my youngest, the older he gets, the easier it been for them to get on. Well, I think it's probably a fair thing to say. I'm ready to be given a find a flat by car. Taken. No one knows me here. That's what I was trying to say about who I was speaking to yesterday, that when were when we're thinking of becoming parents, and like you were saying, you think about what pram you're gonna get and what, you know, making your Pinterest board to make your nursery really beautiful. It's like, that should be like the last thing we do like that. It should be ingrained in our culture that you you search up, you have the support services in your phone, you know, you know, where you're gonna go, if you need help you have people who are going to make food for you all, you know, all this sort of stuff. It's, it's the after the birth stuff, when your home that you need the help with, it's the lady I spoke to yesterday, Mary, she said, she had this beautiful nursery in this beautiful car, and the baby never went in the car. She ended up giving it away. So yeah, I feel like I mean, I guess capitalism and commercialism drives that need for things to be new and pretty imperfect, and whatever, and this Instagram world where everything's got to look really good. But you know, getting back to the basics of actually caring for each other. And actually, I'm crapping on a fair bit now, but, but what I was what I noticed, when you were talking about the culture, I'm sorry, I can't remember what culture it was, but the lady you knew from your bookshop, and that basically, all she had to do is feed her baby nurse the baby, and then they'd even settle it and do everything else. And when I was in the worst throes of my postnatal depression, that was literally all I could do, I would feed him and give him back to my husband, and he would do everything else with him. So it was like, I was putting myself in that position without even you know, consciously realizing, I just needed so much help. And I was just, that was all I was capable of, and I couldn't even see myself leaving my bedroom. I had to be in my bed. You know, it was like this safe cocoon. So yeah, I was creating without even knowing I was creating that environment. Which is really, yeah. So interesting to hear. How did that change for you? But over the trajectory? Was there a point where you started to feel like I've got a handle on this, now I'm starting to heal. It took a while, like, we have, I mean, a regional town in my Gambia in South Australia. So we don't have a huge amount of services. But again, I didn't know they were there till I needed them. So it was this scramble, you know, when you need it, it's like, oh, my gosh, Googling things and whatever. But I was pleasantly surprised that we do actually have more services than I thought. So I had a a mental health nurse who would come over and just sit with us. And she wouldn't say anything. She was just there. And I got really familiar. My I think my husband, he found it a bit tricky, because he wasn't, you know, obviously he was in a different mental state than me. So he found it a bit weird that this lady was just sitting in our lounge room with us, but I really liked his, she was just there and she'd observe us and if I if I wanted to talk about things I could, and if I didn't want to, you know, she was just there and so I had her come on. For many weeks, and then one day, she said to me, I don't think I don't think you need me anymore. Because she said, she could just see the change in me physically, you know, from the first time she'd met me to, you know how I was interacting with the baby. And, you know, I was laughing a bit more, not just my demeanor had changed. And I was medicated pretty early on. So you know, you have that period of time, like, you know, three or four weeks for that to kick into your system. So that was a bit horrible. But yeah, if months, I guess my husband slept in the baby's room in a in a single bed, probably for about six months, I reckon, because I just couldn't bear the night times, they were the worst, because that was where all my triggers were when my previous baby was just being in the dark with a baby was just like, the worst thing I could imagine. So he took all that away from me. Yeah. And then one day said, Oh, do you reckon you reckon you might like to have a go or the way he said it? It was like a really kind way. It wasn't like, yeah, it was almost like a playful way. Like, do you think you might like to try and see how you go? I was like, God, not yet. No, not yet. It was sort of like no. But yeah, eventually. Yeah. So within the first year, I was back to relative normality. In my mental wellness, I think, what was it about the dark and babies that night? I think it was because I couldn't I had a lot of trouble settling him. And when I'd get him settled, he, he would wake up really easily. So it was like I felt trapped in there. I think it was like that. I'm in the dark. I'm by myself, like, no one else is helping me and I'm stuck here with this baby sort of thing. It was almost like a like I was Yeah. Yeah, like I was not abandoned. But I was the one that had to do it. And no one else was going to help me. sort of thing. Yeah. And yeah, it was horrible. And even in the daytime, he'd only sleep for 45 minutes. And, you know, to my detriment, I was reading this book that said, you know, you've got to get him to sleep for an hour and a half, blah, blah, blah. And so I'd be sitting in there in the dark, just patting and shushing, and patting his shushing, and this kid was ready to get up. But all the book told me I have to have to get him back to sleep. So in with my second child, are just like, I'm just going to do whatever the hell this kid wants, you know, like, he was just like, he's, he knows what he wants in his life, he wants to get up, he's gonna get up, just, you know, I just went in a completely different, completely different way. And I had a lot of time to think about it. So I had like, this list that I'd made, of all the things that I do differently. And I was actually just talking about this the other day to about and it wasn't necessarily practical things it was about myself, you know, like, don't be hard on yourself. It's doesn't matter if the house isn't clean. It's not a reflection on you how often the baby sleeps. And I was like, it doesn't matter if he has formula or if he's breastfed like it was all about taking the pressure off myself, basically. Because that's how I think I'd build up the first one, that it was all about me, I had to do everything I had to breastfeed him. You know, it was this real martyr sort of mentality, which wasn't very nice. Yeah. And do you know what the breastfeeding thing so I really struggled with breastfeeding. And I had been told by our hospital, like classes that you know, all women can breastfeed, some just can't have the pain. It's the only best way, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I remember writing it down. So I would play with such an a kind of a like, student, I was like making my little notes and being like, well, of course, I've run long distances, I know how to push through things, I'll be fine. And when it didn't work, no one said to me, formulas, fine. No one said, actually take the pressure off. A happy mom is much better for your baby than a mum that's struggling to breastfeed in an extraordinary amount of pain. And then, remember, the advice I got was, well, what you need to do is just keep on feeding. I remember calling like the breastfeeding hotline, and they'd be like, well, you're bleeding. You just keep feeding through that. And then you're not getting much milk. So what you need to do is feed the baby then you need to express and pomp and then you need to go and give them a top up a formula, because they're not putting on weight, then will weigh them all the time, like every day coming to the hospital. And because he vomited so much, he wasn't putting on weight anyway. But then I would be basically given advice, just not to sleep. But really, because by the time you do that, do it. You're not sleeping like what did that takes two hours, and then you're feeding them every two hours because they want you to increase their weight. And so I remember doing the same thing when I went to have my daughter and she's three my son's seven and she's three. I wrote myself a note because your hormones change so much. So you think you're going to be this rational person that you are before you have your baby. And during your pregnancy. You're pretty rational for me as soon as you have the baby It all kind of goes out the window. And remember, I'm reading my note to myself that said, you are doing this for two weeks. If it's not working, your formula is perfectly fine. And your baby will be perfectly fine. And I'm so glad I did that, because I did I just against their medical advice, because they like, I remember that this beautiful pediatrician was like, Well, yeah, you can actually stop. But like, don't tell anyone that I told you that you can stop breastfeeding. What total bullshit, like, everybody is unique. Everyone's baby's unique, you are unique. If someone had said that, to me that like just like some women are great at yoga, other women produce so much milk, they come back and feed a whole village. And you like I one of the women that probably in the village who's out organizing the fields, because you don't like sitting still. And so someone else would have fed your baby. Like, it's fine. Just like some women, it's just like all of us are unique. And even the relationship I didn't realize is that some babies have a different shape now to the nipple of the woman. And so there was just no way that they'd be able to feed because the baby has to come to the party just like you do, not to mention whatever you went through during your birth. And if you had a huge impact, and then also the way that you burst now I know can have an effect on your afterbirth and your motor presence because of the type of hormones and whether there was an interruption there, whether you had trauma from that, whether you were low in iron, all of that goes into milk production. And so there's just so it's so we're so mean, in a way the system feels me Yeah, yeah. And Jaggi. And yeah, like you're doing it wrong. Don't call me. And I'm actually interested in your perspective on this. This is not something that I have read in a study, it's just a gut feeling that I have full caveat. I'm a very creative person. I'm really great at a lot of things, talking music, writing, doing things that scare other people. Bloody Great. Admin, cleaning, turning off on time, total garbage. Fire on a calendar can't clean the fridge. Yeah, tell you the bloody I don't know, whatever day it is, I don't know, half the time. So like I have the skill set. But the other type of skill set for motherhood, I'm real shitter. And I think now excuse my language, I'm starting to progress. But now as I get all that, and my kids are getting older, I have the skill set that I think is really suited to that. But a lot of the baby stuff is like routine, and resting and staying still all the time, and not sleeping that much. And then like being at home in the same place doing the same thing every single day over and over again. And I wonder too, if you're a highly creative person who also needs that creativity to feel fill you up and feel like you and the excitement and adrenaline of new experiences. Motherhood rock can rob you of that. And I I wonder whether that's a piece of it to that as creatives and I think we're all designed to be creative, but highly sort of creative people with that scratching their head that needs to be etched because they constantly have to make stuff. Yeah, that I wonder whether that was a piece of it too. Huh. That's really interesting. I can totally resonate with what you're saying about cleaning. I seriously I just sometimes it's just not even on my radar. I don't even think about it. Because I'm just thinking of doing things. And I don't know. And then I think shivers, look at that carpet probably could do with a vacuum. But then do I go do it? Probably not straightaway. But you know what I mean? It's like your brain doesn't live in practical land, it lives in, I don't know, this different thing, which is finding their bodies. And also unique and special and great. And I think part of this struggle. I've written a song on my album called this mother thing which speaks into this fact the Lyric, will you go but also say will you grow but also never change? Tiny lungs, tiny beating hearts. This mother thing is full of scars. And it's kind of this idea that as a creative, I just constantly want to be left to my own devices to get weird and make it and get excited about the world. But then also I love my kids and I want them to be with me as well. And I'm constantly in this state of juggling of how do I make being a mother and a creative work. And actually I I think part of it is, we need if you are someone that has that creative urge all the time, and you're not great at cleaning, like, we actually have a cleaning, which I know is a real privilege, but also is the probably the thing that saves me parenting, because I just otherwise, it's just a disaster. And so I now see my cleaner as part of our company, as an employee, really, and I would keep for all go many things before I let them go. Really, life which is employed, which I know is a real privilege, and not everyone has access to that. But I but what I will say is having someone and speaking to Mira from my bookstore, in a village context, you would have so many other people around to do those kinds of chores and jobs for you that the light the load is lighter. And even I'm not surprised that having a mental health nurse come and sit with you was the thing that helped is really human beings are designed to be in community and with each other. And if you just had someone else with you during those night times, who can just say it's okay, you're doing a great job, and sit down and he's a cuppa, like, not even do anything just be around. I just think some people and I think most of us as humans, we just want connection we want community, which is what we were designed to have and modern lives in our particular Western Australian context, just a really detrimental for our heads and our hearts. And as mothers, you know, like I was speaking to a woman on PBS who was telling me in Ghana, where she grew up. Like she just didn't have any identity loss as a mother because everyone was she had like aunties, uncles, cousins, brothers, Little Kids, Big kids, people were around and everyone's breastfeeding together. And she'd seen women give birth around her for a long time. So it wasn't this like hidden experience. It's same with death. Death is hidden here. But it's not in other cultures. It's a part of everything. You know, like her grandparents were buried in her front garden. You know, it's like that kind of thing, which I'm not suggesting we do. But I guess what I mean is like our humanity, our ability to be present and alive in the world and understand what motherhood really means. It is, shouldn't be something that we wait to experience until we're eight and a half months pregnant. It should be like, we're breastfeeding with 10 other women, and you've seen it happen so much. And if it doesn't work for you, there's another woman there cannot who actually could feed your baby or can tell you, your nipples. We're not it's probably not going to happen to you. Let's get you some formula. You'll be fine. You know? Exactly. Yeah. Normalizing that experience. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When you're talking about the breastfeeding before, that was something that my first child that I was just like, I have to do this. I remember sitting at the table, my kitchen table, and my mom was there. And I was just in tears, because I couldn't get this kid to attach properly. And I pushed through eventually things got better. And I fed him for a long time. But it was like I had this, this ridiculous, controlling thing that I had to do it. And my husband was like, Oh, do you want me to just go get some formula. I was like, No, don't get the formula. I'm doing it. Like it was just irrational, basically. So then, with my second one, one of my things was like, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't doesn't matter if he has formula, you know, 30 is best that was the thing I was telling myself not breast is best Fed is best doesn't matter how you baby gets fed. And just by a stroke of luck, I suppose not lucky for him. But when he was born, he was very, very small. And he was born by like, emergency severe. And so that's where sort of all all the started. So he was in one of those little humidity crib things, which I've been calling a hot box for a long time, but it actually has a name that I just referred to the baby in the Hotbox. So because he was in there, and he was away from me a bit. They just gave him formula. And I was like, this is fantastic. That's out of my hands. Now I haven't made this decision, you know, the pressures off me. It was just wonderful. You know, like, it was bad that he was in there. But you know what I mean? It was just the best thing that happened to me like, he couldn't live without me. Yeah, and that means that you can get some sleep. And if you're someone that does need a lot of sleep and you're not enjoying breastfeeding, or it's hard or you don't have enough milk or a million other things, some women who take medication they need to have means they can't breastfeed. Some women have had mastectomy is like there's just like a million different reasons why you might not need you might not be able to breastfeed. And it's just not that big a deal. And obviously in an ideal world, like there are lots and lots of benefits to breastfeeding. I'm not saying there aren't there are heaps and if it had worked for me, that would have been wonderful, but this idea that somehow we need to guilt mothers about it and be so hard and I said I think that paste, I'm so passionate about women being kind to themselves in. Because I think that's where so much of this stat is. And it's not an accident because culture is hard on us, then we are so hard on ourselves. And then we compare and think about what it should be. And if my friend can't breastfeed, but that's fine for her. But no, no, no, I must have these ridiculously high standards for myself. And I think also, something I write about in my songs self. So one of the lines that song talks about, I think birth trauma, which is what I experienced, and I'm assuming you had some deaths from the to from your story. So part of is that and actually one in three women, I think the statistic in Australia at the moment experience birth trauma form, which is a giant. Yeah, and it speaks into like, then the mental health outcomes for that flow on from there. And there's lots of reasons as to why that might be the case. And part of it is the system. There's lots of things that are broken. But that song self talks about that. The first line is a woman at the start broken open now thinking that shields fail, you can hold your own damn self, your self can still prevail. I remember being told it won't hurt. Miracle can push through the pain, but I'm bleeding, just try harder. And you should be better at it all. Here, take take all this shame. And to me that feeling of shame, and failure, and you should be better, why can't you do it was at the crux of so much that I struggled with in those early days of motherhood and it wasn't just what I was putting on myself. It was the culture that I gave birth in and then some of the midwives and the doctors that I came up against who was so dismissive of me and my needs and judgmental when I couldn't make what I thought you know, what I thought was gonna happen happen with the breastfeeding piece I just think there's there's just so much room for so much compassion, knowledge and education around all of it. And love I think we need to put love back in okay occasion this love this that's a really good point. And when you were talking about that judgment of, of medical professionals, like, this kindness, this compassion, like, it's like, I know they deliver babies every day, like they've done millions of them, whatever. But in that moment, you need a person that's gonna have your back and gonna support you like, I Sorry, I'm gonna get emotional but when the worst the thing that really now this isn't my podcast, this is your episode. But when when we arrived at a hospital to have Digby, the second one, the midwife that greeted us her first words to us, what are your late you were told to be here for an early induction. Why? Why weren't you here? And it's like, I just I almost burst into tears right then, because I have this thing. Just before like, the few days before I have a baby. I get really anxious. Like, oh my God, my life is gonna change. Oh my god, how's this gonna get out of me? Like all those big things. And on the way in the car, I was just so anxious, like both my boys have been induced. So I knew it was coming. You know, I had this time to build myself up into this frenzy of anxiousness. So when she said that I was just like, oh my god, really? Like I'm already feeling so vulnerable. And so yeah, vulnerable and she just spiked bang. And then she just kept going. It was like, Oh, he's in there waiting for you. It was like, Oh, my God, like, seriously, you're going to speak to me like this. Like I started I got really like, we're I was really upset. But I sort of tried to hold it together. And then she said something else about she wanted a a urine sample. And she just handed me the thing and just points that one just goes going there. I was like, oh my god, seriously, like it was just, I sat on the toilet and I burst into tears. And I just thought that she's not going to do this, like this is not okay. And I went back out there and I thought, okay, I can either tell her as I want a new midwife or I can just try and make peace with this woman, whatever's happened in her morning like she's bringing this to us. You know, it's obviously, you know, things aren't going well for this lady. So I basically walked out there and I put my hand on her shoulder and I said, Look, can we just start again? place. And she just took a massive sigh and she just sort of went like this. Like if she realized I think what she what she'd been doing. And she was totally different from that point. Apart from pride at the end, where we went for the urgency Cesar and she went and stood next to the wall like I can literally see an hour I'm pointing it was at the wall stood at the side of the wall with a back to the wall and just left me to it. And I was so afraid. And so like, because they'd already stuffed up my epidural. So I could still feel my contractions on one side of my body, he put it up too high. And so my at one point, my lungs, like my breathing was compromised. All these sort of, you know, stuff was happening. So I didn't trust that they were going to get this beat, right? Like I was in fear that I was going to feel everything that was my biggest fear. And so they were like, holding like a bag of ice on me. Can you feel that? And I said, I can feel the pressure, like Piglet, but can you feel cold? Like they were like, not attacking me, but they were like, Can you feel that sort of thing? It's like, but I can I can feel you touching me am I supposed to feel that, you know, I was there using their medical terms. And I'm using my like, and I can feel you touching me. So I was just in total fear. And thank God, this beautiful, amazing theater nurse came over and she held my hand and she stroked my head and she said, I know you're scared, it's going to be okay, we're all here to help you. And I burst into tears because like thank god, somebody cares for me sort of thing. You know, it was, again, maybe they've got themes of abandonment and stuff going on. But somehow I needed someone to help me. And she was amazing. And that entire that entire Severian I could obviously feel them pulling and whatever. But I laid there in fear because any second now I thought, I'm going to feel something really painful. Like I was just so afraid. Plus officer I was afraid for my child because he's, you know, he had to be gotten out quickly. Yeah, just this this kindness, kindness and compassion. And even you know, people mean well, but like, in my sister and I both talked about this, like nurses that had come in to help you breastfeed or whatever. What are you doing that for here? Or what's wrong here? What's wrong today, but just the language they use? I was in tears at some point because some woman just looked at me and said, What's the matter with you today? And I was like, Whoa, like just sent me off. Like, you know, you're so vulnerable when you read the you know, you feel like every nerve endings exposed and everything is going to set you off and then someone says something so off the cuff and they don't mean anything by it. But you just lose it. It's like they don't know that you know, they don't see that they're everything they do has an impact on us at that time. So yeah, compassion love caring after all, oh, sorry. Sorry for that experience. And I hope you leave the scene because I owe more stories that we can share my tears now. I know it's hard on it tell you that shame isn't your to hold your body this way let it sink in. Beautiful. They may see your beautiful, wonderful you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I will certainly do you know what I know now having spoken to a lot of women in this space, and there's a podcast episode I did with a friend of mine, Kim Beale, who's a woman client physio, and she does birth preparation and lots of things. She said one of the number one things to indicate that you're going to have a good birth is feeling safe. Because when you think about a cat, they will go under the house in a really dark warm spot. It's really enclosed. It's very quiet, in order for your body to do the things that it actually needs to do and it naturally should do. You need to feel so safe and your body needs to know that you're safe. It's not even just your mind. It's your body as an entity needs to breathe that safety and that calmness. And it's so fragile and precarious. So if you have a person like I had a woman when I went into labor and I started singing into the pain, I was told to shut up get back on the bed, you'll exhaust you Stop making that noise. Oh my god. Yeah. And I now know that singing into contractions. If you're a music person, or just anyone that has that vibration is perfect. It's perfect for opening new opening your cervix allowing for you did give the and I just think that even just that interruption let alone how that woman spoke to you and I had other interactions with her, of course your body when you're already anxious, and then your body is supposed to open. Of course things are gonna go right not to mention intervention and sometimes intervention is necessary. But there's so much research showing that if you intervene early, then things are more likely to be more painful, like with inductions and things I was induced to. And things just cascade and having that power and the knowledge that you need to set up this birth space for you. In however that looks however weird, you might think it is particularly as a creative being. Like I think about what I like and need when I'm making music. When I'm in my zone. I didn't think about my birth like that. I thought about it like a medical procedure, when actually I needed some weird and wonderful dark space with like insane music and candles and like, really cool witchy women in with me. So I could sing my way through it, you know, and it happened with my daughter. But by that point, I'd had such a sort of difficult birth injury for my son, that I had a planned cesarean with her because I just couldn't envision having lifelong or worse injuries and I already had with him. And in hindsight now I kind of wish that I had been able to have a birth where I felt I could sing her into the world. And it still breaks my heart. Because she's a singer she already singing. As a three year old, my son is so creative too. And I I get so sad thinking that I could have sung her into the hook her very first sign of life was this vibration. And I also think that's not my fault. And it's not something that I'm just I'm sad about. And I think it's important to acknowledge you can feel sad, but not beat yourself up about it. You're stuck in a system that isn't designed for you. And so I'm sorry, that experience happened to you too. So sorry. And I also feel like for other women going forward for my daughter, I'm just so passionate that she can find if she decides to have kids. If my little boy decides to have kids like that they've got all this knowledge they're armed with so that it may not go the way you plan in Him there will say that in that tonight's episode, like it may still go awry, you may still end up with an emergency subject to them. But if you've got this kind of birth map, where you know from the outset, right, when I get in there, these are the people that are going to be there, I know them and they know me, they care about me. That's a big one. They really care about me, whoever they are whoever they look like, if they're a midwife, I've known for years for my pregnancy, if they're a friend who's also human birth, who's going to make me feel safe. But then if things go wrong, these are all the different things that will happen. Because then if you feel in control and educated, you're less likely I was terrified to go I had surgery afterwards. And that fear of you just not trusting that they will do the right thing. And that's smart, because they hadn't didn't do the right. They stuffed up your you know, Fe juror which happened to a friend of mine to hers fell out of her back. And no one believed her. They said we put it in you can't be feeling anything, you know, like that. There's also inherent misogyny in the system that stems from that Christian Christianity really and that idea that Eve was cursed in childbirth. And so from that point on, you can see that in the medical profession, that women's pain overall is just less acknowledged less believed. The babies as well for my son's reflux. It took me six months to get a diagnosis. They just don't believe you weird, a particular and they think like endometriosis, all of these different conditions. I speak to another naturopath called Freya, Lola, about endo and chronic stress and hormones. I'm just so passionate that women get as much information not only about their birth, but also about menopause. How we go through our birth will affect how we menopause, about how we integrate our hormones, about the changes in our bodies and how our hormones fluctuate how to care for and eat better. So that when we do have these hormonal changes when we enter perimenopause, which I didn't even know it feedback. So that we write that we know why we feel rage, why we feel exhaustion, why we feel brain fog and how to eat and exercise around those things. And part of it is bringing our stress levels down, thinking about what our life looks like, and whether it's actually sustainable in its current form. It's there's so much care and knowledge that needs to be put back in that we used to have that's been taken from us. Even talking about periods and all that stuff without shame. Like, I just think it's just so important. And I think podcasting is a great medium for that, too, during having these discussions, because, and having like, What are you talking about your birth like that? I'm so hopeful there's someone listening to these studies and midwife or a doctor or an obstetrician or someone in the hospital setting, because I have found that with telling my story and my songs now that I do, and I did a live show over the weekend, where I did the same thing. Because so many of the women I've met since who are midwives on maternal health nurses have said to me, yes, I can imagine exactly who that woman was that Pat said that to you. I've met her I've met someone like her. But also, it's a great reminder for us, because we are just ticking boxes, we're going through the motions, we're exhausted, we're tired, we're underfunded and devalued. And so like that woman you met, you've had her she's lived her whole life before she's got there. And so being reminded that for each woman that comes in this is life or death, for her that view, it might be the seventh woman you've seen for the day, and how precarious and fragile, and in need of love and care we are in those spaces and, and allowing us to bring the love of the people in our lives, if we're lucky enough to have them into that room, or at least the people that we'd like to be there and not just thinking it's a purely medical thing. Because I think that would have made a difference. And at So, anyway, gosh, how did we get to here? But no, I have got a couple of medical people that listen. And there's one midwife in particular, who often will message me after some episodes, and be like, suggest, they'll suggest the name of maybe the doctor that I talked about, or someone they know, like, we're anywhere relatively smallish. I mean, we're not a small town, but we're a small regional center. So most people know who people are. So you know, if you're listening, Yvonne Hi. Hello. And I will say as well, through this work I've been doing taking this album around the kind of like that. So So for example, on Sunday, at the Wesleyan, there was this old pub, it was it used to be a church, and they've made this kind of bandroom we had candles everywhere. And all these women came it was so incredible. And just like midwives and maternal health nurses, women who are physios and women who are interested in birth, women who are just moms who've, like had a rough trot or just brought their mother's group along. And then there were couples that came in. We had Lauren Beatty, who's a psychologist who now runs these sessions called maternal journal, which are bringing mothers into circle to journal and make basically a very experiences. And so she spoke about the treatments. And then I played my story and my songs. And we all crying, it was like a pack sold out roots. So completely happened. Still wild to me. But just the feeling that people kept said to me afterwards, I feel lighter, I feel seen, I feel connected. I feel like so many other women in my life are going through something that I didn't know that well, their birth story, they told me in a kind of funny way, but now I actually understand how traumatic it was for them. And I noticed when the show finished, rather than people leaving, they all sat for ages having a glass of wine, just like laughing and talking. Yeah, that's that. That's really I mean, starting to do regional shows now because I do think women in regional areas, from what I've heard from you too much more isolated in lots of ways. And I did did one in yackandandah. And when in my whaler recently, I'm doing another one in ships. And I'm just really passionate now about taking the show on the road. going make women cry all over the country. All alone out. There but really, it's that meeting of all of the professionals in the space and the women who have cared for them, by them kind of connecting and bringing empathy back in and understanding. Can you come down here plates? genuinely love? Yes, seriously? Seriously? They will be. We have to talk about that after. Totally. I'm actually planning a show in Newcastle. And I'm thinking about going to the Northern Rivers, planning little adventures. I'm actually also been invited to go to the UK would leave it in Chile, so no oh my god for two weeks. I'm going over there with Amy Taylor to bad season. Oh, yeah. I know, she reminded me I know. You're gonna go play music to women in the UK and Ireland, and Scotland. And just for two weeks, I'm taking my music producers EQs 30 is like big burly biker tats. He's like, gonna play music with me. And he's a lot of fun. So very special. But yeah, let's talk. I would love that. Yes. Now, I've just realized that I haven't asked you about your children. Here are kids. I have to one of these three, my daughter and then my son is eight. He'll be eight in October. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I think coming to England, are you having a child, I'm going on my own. So I talked about lucky. He's amazing. And also, we just co parented from the very beginning, we have lucky like that we both worked from home in the company together. So he's probably a better parent means always. He's much more routines and like, he's great. So I'm very, very lucky to have that. And also family support to so yeah. A long time need to be away. But how and how are you feeling about that? But one of the topics that and I'm not wondering, like leading you into this to say that you have to feel this way. But I'm just linking it together, that we have, we have this thing called mum guilt in our society, unfortunately. Are you feeling you know, apprehensive about going or leaving them? Because you're going to do something that doesn't involve them? Or you'd like, Yes, I'm going, Okay, this people put up here, we're going to turn the podcast off. Once I save you know, that guilty in the beam. In the beam, I have huge amounts of guilt about a lot of things over time I was raised Catholic, it's part of it, the guilty, giant, giant guilt. And so but what happened to me over the past couple of years speaking to a woman after woman person after person was I started to hear this guilt month or guilt being like of the wanting to be with them, but wanting to be a way that this mother thing some speaks into this constant struggle. And I just realized, I ran hard at this creative project last year, for the first time in my life, I prioritize my work over my husband's, I prioritized it over a lot of other admin things and cleaning, and I just threw myself into it with as much gusto as I possibly could. Partly to save myself, I think because I was at such a low point, that was the thing that brought me back into myself. And what I've realized is, I thought, my kids would a suffer hate me, I'm the worst parent, everyone's gonna think I'm a terrible mother, all of this stuff. And that was my greatest fear in doing that. And so I didn't do it for a very long time. But what was kind of interesting about throwing myself into this work and creating something I'm so proud of is that, like, my son started drawing me for the first time, he usually draws like Pokemon transformers, and sometimes he's dead. And it's dead. There I am. Front and center in his drawings is a big heart on my chest with me standing on a stage. And he sees me as a person, not only as his mum, which is a really special thing. I know. Also, I'm privileged to have a partner who is on board, and I trust completely with all of it. That part of doing that was also writing down the list of everything I was doing for the mental load. So there's been a lot of layers, but it didn't happen overnight. The guilt in the beginning, like a lifelong process, will probably backstory, who knows, but I sat down with him. And I wrote down everything that I did in our lives, like I did the admin for our company, I facilitated so much of his creative work. Plus all the kids stuff. I wrote it down from the get go in my new detail, for example, uniforms. What size are they where to buy them from? How much are they? How many pairs? Like, yeah, he did the same. And I thought maybe it would be when we looked in. It was so powerful to see though that because he thought it was equal really, he's a one he's so aware and maybe that he could finally see all of the things and now I don't micromanage anything anymore. He takes on board like so many things. And I it's not a boss employee relationship. It's a Boss Boss. So he'll be like the vaccination did you I booked the GP appointment or the kids, this person's going to a party and I bought the present, I'm going to drive them, it's on Sunday at 10 o'clock. Like, that enabled me to fully expand into this credit project. And so the mother guilt thing, I just don't think serves us, I just don't think guilt is a is a helpful emotion. I think rage is, I think love is I think empathy is I think compassion is I think being critical, in a way, particularly in your art are like self critical. But in a way that's like I would call it as when I was a primary school teacher, being a critical friend, you know, like being real with yourself about like, what you could improve on. But the guilt thing doesn't help anyone. So I'm still going to do it anyway. So or what am I going to do spend the whole time feeling bad about the fact that I'm enjoying myself, like, get in the bin, that it would say, I love these, this idea of tempering joy, and I grew up doing this a lot that like I can enjoy this too much. Because something bad will happen? Or what if this happens, or like seeing your kids asleep? And you're like, Oh, this is beautiful. What if they die? You know, like, Oh, I do like to fail them? You know, like, yeah, we tempering our joy, but it doesn't actually change the outcome. So now I'm trying as best I can mangle in the been fully running towards the creative project that I get to do feeling bloody lucky and privileged that I'm getting to make it knowing that I think it's important to me as a human, for my kids and for my daughter to see me making and doing and being a full happy person. And oh, well if they go to school and their uniform labels peeling a bit. And I know they've had to forage around the back of the cupboard for some biscuits put in their lunchbox, so be it. Yeah, oh, yeah. Absolutely. That's it, isn't it. And that this whole, I don't know that what we're trying to do, of breaking that cycle and changing this patriarchal society and all these things we've talked about with health care and mental wellness and things like it has to start somewhere. And if we keep showing their kids, that what we're doing is okay, and acceptable, then they'll just keep doing it in their next generation. So we have to make the changes, and we have to let the kids see the changes. Because kids will do much more of what they see than what you tell them and what you want. And when I've had my daughter, especially but for my son, just the same. What I want him to be is a person that isn't always happy because no one's happy all the time. But is content finds work that feels the map is purposeful, that has meaningful relationships that is kind to themselves, that notices the world and is curious about the world that understand their place in things and feels connected. And for them to be that I need to be that. And I'm not going to be that by obsessing over whether or not I've mopped the floors every day and how perfect my hair looks and whether my kids are perfect. Like I have a friend who I text MSC cupboards to. And I love that. That's good. Friends you miss, find them over when your house is a disaster zone, not when you've spent like an hour being sweaty and crying, fixing it. So perfect. So when they arrived, you're like, Oh, this is the, you know, like, and obviously I still do that too, because I carry a lot of shame around making things clean and having that organized stuff. But I think that's the real stuff. That's connection. That's what heals us. That's what makes us whole and that will make our kids whole let me tell you, they're not going to remember how perfect your house was. But they will remember how they made how you made them feel. And what they see do in the world. Yes, so well said absolutely. Yeah. Love that. Oh, do you feel like I'm gonna shake myself down? You know, we need things and you're like yeah, that's actually that's that's a real appeal. That's what I didn't get on the show. And like ducks do and honestly, you just have to shake off that shake up all the stories and the emotion like genuinely that's why we should do it more. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah, like there's a sock on Play School about shaky sillies out and like you let's we got to get it out of here. So then you could sit down because actually, that's fine yoga, they do all the assignments and then you sit down and meditate afterwards. It's like you've got all the movement. Yeah, yeah, I totally I think so much of healing is movement. And often now I've thought to myself, it's body to mind for me anyway. Like talk therapy is great as well and has its place but I think I met committees like getting your body right getting you got health right? Yeah. And that's yeah, that's something else but science is finally catching up with like, you know Western medicines finally realizing that we're naturopaths have been right for so many years love it when the heavens likes me I was thinking about my friends and hate him. When you walk across the room, I couldn't help us. Sad Hello You sad hello what I wanted to mention to you, I've been listening to your our, the matrices album on Spotify, which it's just, it's such a I don't know, it feels so reassuring. And I think from people that have been through this stuff, when you listen to it, it just makes you like you said it makes you feel heard. It makes you feel validated. But there's a couple of tracks that I was really, I thought were pretty cool feature to have. And at the start, you've got this incredible, like, inhale and exhale, and love. Was that like a deliberate thing? Or did you accidentally do that and then decide to leave it in there. Cuz I just love it. Look, I yelled done it now. So why that particular inhale happened when I wrote that song. When I sang, right? What I do is get very still. And I wrote that song in the back room of my singing teachers studio, as by myself. Very rare to get that as a mom, I think, but that's what I needed. It's almost meditative for me. And that song came out in about 20 minutes. I love it. When that happens. It's like, you know that it's meant to be like that don't yeah, it's just yeah, it just pours out of you. Yeah, it's like a creature, I feel. And that particular moment was that was when I record the way I write because I have a voice memo recording, so that I can just capture it all. Sometimes I'll be walking and stuff. And I'll capture that. But I had the voice memo on and if you listen really closely, there's like a feedback speaker as well, kind of making a sound that we then used in the track. And also, there's breath as beat track that runs through it. And yeah, that was from the original the moment when I wrote it. Took this like inhale, exhale, breath to kind of center myself. And then I wanted it left in there. That song was the first one I brought to zekiel Feminine music producer. And he seems on my other staff. And that was a brand new one and written like the day before. And I was like this is what I had. So clearly in my head. I wanted to snare drum run through it. I wanted this to use that breath and use that speaker sound and yeah, so we use the original voice memo, quite a lot of them in the in the album have that original voice memo recording. Wow. Oh, that's awesome. That's so cool. I love that. And the other thing I really liked too, is in one of the tracks free I think it is with this. There's a child counting like bringing in the template is that wonderful kids to either that's my daughter. Yeah. And you know, she was jumping off a bed. That's the same. That's a voice memo. She was jumping off the bed and just counting yourself down and check yourself again again. She's their own biggest, super loud and joyful and I just grabbed my voice memo on my phone and recorded it. And I will say that for anyone who's a songwriter, that voice or an app that Mike's actually really great. Quality is very good. I just like captured it and then I took it to Zeke and was like, I want to add this into free and Saturday. Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's like, oh, no, like, it reminds me of years ago, I went to a training call of training course a local person that was telling people how to run their Instagram accounts. And they said, You've got to keep like, because she did a like a one on one with her. And she said you've got to keep your own account, your private account separate to your singing account. You've got to create a new account just for you. And Kevin, keep you singing one I'm like, but that's me. Like that's who I am. And she's like, No, but that's that's like your business that's you think I'm like, but that's an I didn't do it because she was telling me to take all these things out and change them. It's like, but everything that's in that account is inspiration to me like my children are a massive inspiration to me. And I love that. You've got that crossing over it in your actual music that you're releasing of, of your children. And you're singing like it's literally the two worlds are together. I just love that. I love that. Thank you. That's such a big compliment. I agree with you. I I think people have a lot of opinions about how you should do the things. And I really think for me, that you just have to follow your gut really deeply. And the thing that you know, the most and the best is your lived experience. And when you make art that deep seated place, like and, and you can feel like it's small and very specific and kind of weird. But actually, everyone's their own special, unique brand of weird. And you're more likely to touch people when you're making art from these really specific, close places. And I think that was social media, which is this kind of unfortunate base that we're all in. But connecting. And yeah, I don't have a separate one for you know, it just all leaves in my account. Really, I have someone else that runs one futons pod into decimal, but we don't do much on there. Because really, I just Yeah, I want to make it from that place. And I don't speak too much about my kids. And I don't use their names because I'm also conscious, I want them to choose how they represent themselves when they decide to. But definitely, I wanted to just be to operate my music and my art and the same with my podcast as much. With as much heart and integrity and honesty as I could. Because that's what I needed. Like I really did it selfishly. I think there's a mate and amazing book, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Have you read that? No, I haven't. I do love it as a creative. It's just like, I go back to that book, like the Bible every so often, just like her voice just seems out at you. And there's a really great section which talks about Tom Waits and his songwriting, and how he sees songwriting as creatures, which I had never, I've always felt like that and songs following me around. And I just thought everyone had that turned out. No, not the case. They were gonna get drunk and then write songs into their phone in the toilet cubicle. I thought that was I thought that was um, everyone that you know that he she there's a section in there about his creativity and songwriting and he talks to his songs and like, Come on, mate, you gotta get on the bus. Stop mucking around. Anyway. But this particular would be magic is so much great advice for creatives. And one of the things you said is for the love of God, don't make something for everyone else make it for you. And then if other people love it cool, like she's the author of Eat, Pray Love. She said, she wrote that book for her. Turns out lots of other people saw themselves in it. But yeah, that's so that's so the whole album I made. For me, I listened to those songs like friends when I was struggling in different parts of my life, which sounds weird that you might listen to your own music, but on their friends, their friends of mine, I wrote them, because that's what I needed in particular moments. And I seen them in particular moments. When we spent so long making good girls come read through as we wrap that up, we're gonna tear down this k two rounds, because we had this conversation. I can't remember who it was with now, but it was someone to do with music, the music industry, and it's like, it's literally an industry, it is a money making machine. And if you're going to try and get into that, you've got to be prepared to let go of who you are, and what your voice has got to say. Because you're not going to be doing it for yourself, you're going to be doing it for someone else who's trying to make money out of you. So it's like, don't write music for other people. That was literally where we're going. We're going with it. Same thing. Like if someone resonates with what you've written, that's amazing. That's like that connection is incredible. But that's not why you do it. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, um, I guess where I would say too, it's such a privilege and my, my therapist, Jules, who's just this incredibly amazing person and a creative to just says to me, don't put the guilt in the bin. Don't talk about like age, or where you're at or shoulda Coulda, Woulda, all that bullshit, bow down to the altar of the fact that you have the time and resources to make the art you want to make. And I'm at a point in my life. And I'm very privileged to say this, that I can make the music I want because it's completely independently funded. And I can do it how I want and the power of that, I think and at this time in my life as a mom, not a lot of women have that space and time in their life when I'm writing from this particular moment. On this new URL The Parenting phase when the kids are little. And I'd also say to that I couldn't have written this music. When I first had my newborn. I needed enough time to pass. Someone said this. You can't write from trauma you have to write from the scar. And I think that's really valuable advice to. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. Because we're going to talk about myself. Now, again, because I haven't done enough of it on your podcast clear that I've been at the very end of an album that I've been working on, for, I'd say almost three years about my posts now depression. And it's only six tracks. But do you think I could do it within you know, any cricket? No, because I think that's the thing you have to, you have to let time go. And also be able to mean, you have a lot of my stuff I've written from the point of view as back in there. And that's really hard to go back into. So sometimes you have to let a lot of time go before you're ready to actually go. Okay, I can go back into this now without make letting myself I'm not going to fall apart. If I think about it. You know what I mean? Yes, I think that's very true. That that I'm saying, Yeah, I can't wait to hear that album. No, neither can I No, it's, it's so different. Like my first album, I made, what 2019. And it's all just very, very under produced. It's like acoustic instruments, there's a couple of upbeat tracks. But this is just like, hardcore. They calling it a duck pop. So it's like, there's a lot going on. And this the tracks run chronologically from when it first came when I first got the post out depression, like couple of days in hospital, up to happy, wonderful land. So the tracks, you know, from the musical standpoint, like through the instrumentation, and the treatment of the songs tell that story too. So I'm really, really happy with with how it's gone. And yeah, it's, it's been a long time, but I don't know it. I think it just had to be that way. You know, things just happen when they happen. And also need to person. Yeah, but I totally agree with you that things got takes time. And really good art and truthful art takes as long as it's gonna take. Yeah, and you want to just feel like you've left nothing on the table? Or yeah, yeah. And that was I'm particularly felt like that with this. Because, I mean, who knows? What, if I'm gonna get another opportunity to, to, you know, have an album come out, you know, you just don't know what life will give you. And I don't know, I'm a little bit conscious to that, you know, because I'm an independent artists that the money's not coming from elsewhere. So it's like, you know, am I being really self indulgent, using, you know, family's money to do this thing. So it's like, I wanted to do give it the best go, it could have, you know, and make all the sounds that I wanted it to make and go back and forth with the producers because they're in Spain and Argentina, the people I'm working with, so Wow, it's like I've, if I'm the sort of person I've been a bit of a people pleaser, sometimes with my music. If someone's had a suggestion, oh, yeah, that sounds fine. And really, inside, I'm going no, I don't like that at all. But I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to be the person that causes trouble. I want you to like me, you know, that sort of stuff. But with this, I've gone no, I'm paying you to make this. And I don't have to talk to your face to do it. So I'm going to tell you if I don't like something, which I really haven't had to do much off. To be honest, they've been pretty amazing. But yeah, be conscious of, of, you know, you never know when you'll get your last shot at something. That sounds really morbid, but not I'm not talking like a mike die necessarily. I'm just it's like, you know, I'm 40 How old am I? 45. I hope my voice lasts forever. But I mean, I've had to, I've also had two rounds of COVID. So I don't even know. Like I tried to sing yesterday. And it wasn't that great. So I don't know if my voice is actually permanently damaged from you know, COVID pneumonia. COVID. Again, bronchitis for the last six months, like who knows, you know, just in general life. So anyway, sorry, I'm rambling a bit now. But no, you know, it makes so much sense. It absolutely. Isn't the right I can really believe that. And I think I like you know, it's jewelry for the inside of people's mind. So it doesn't matter. No. But also, yes, absolutely. All of it matters. It's the most important thing. And I think that's that that was inescapable talks about that those two things can be absolutely true. That if you're going to make something you make it absolutely the absolute best that you can and and I think as women, particularly we're socialized to not be difficult to want people to like have all of that stuff. But we just need to you need to trust your own instincts in your own gut and go it's not good enough, not good enough. It's not good enough. And I want it to be this I want it to be that this is my vision and and I think blokes have been doing that for a very particular white boy. For a very long time, you know, and I think the more interesting art is coming from that place where you, you don't want to ever think that you've got to the end of it and gone. Just that bit. What if I'd taken that risk? What if I, you know, go back into the work when you think it's done? And you're like, well, it'll probably do No, you'd go back in, you'd go back in and dig a bit deeper. And you and that's what I think I felt at the end of my album that like, however it comes, whatever happens after this point. I know that thing within the introverts life, I decided how you know, and I worked with Zeke, and I was lucky in that he was really amazing to work with. And also could do what I wanted, and I could hear it, but I could tell him, no, that's not what I want. This is what I want and change it and put ego out of it. And yeah, so I was very lucky in that collaborative process. But I think also I just, yeah, like you were saying, you just want to feel like you've given it your absolute best shot. So you're proud of it? Yeah, then you walk with it in the world. It doesn't matter if anyone else likes it or not. You are proud of it. Yeah, that's it is, you know, every inch of it. And you can be like, well, look at this thing. That's amazing that I've done. And then you know, in your heart when it's really as good as you could have made it, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing, like, too, you know, you're talking about hearing bits and thinking are, you know, I wish I had done that I do that so much with my first album, and to the point where I actually recorded some of the songs with other people, with other producers, and did remixes of them, because I just felt like, and also, it was very rushed. Like, we did it in two weeks. And it was just, I'd never recommend doing that. My mom wouldn't do it again. So I take three, so the next one. But yeah, it's just like, bang, bang, it's got to be done. And it's like, no, there's so much that I listened to and I think, Jesus, I wish I'd said something about that. But then, you know, over time, I have the opportunity to, to re record things, which is also privilege, up through the whisper, laugh. Do I think I need you to let me show you. Want to ask you about when are you going to the UK. So it's just happened a couple of days ago. So I'm going I'm leaving on the 28th of June. I'm going over there for the first of July, most likely for a conference, I'm playing in a conference and then I'm just going to be touring. So I'm currently figuring out how to do that, what venues to go to where to play. I'm going to Exeter there's a group of women down there who are running mothers who make which are these big kind of motherhood, creativity stuff. So going there to do some, a little couple of songs in shows. But really, I'm going on my own same with my music producers at an a&e. And yeah, just putting on shows probably ticketed shows in pubs and that kind of stuff, learning how to do that as I go. But yeah, really super excited about it. And then I actually have a show in Sydney on the 30th of July at the great club in Marrickville. Oh, yes, I know. Alison, who runs it? She used to live in that game. Yeah, yeah. She's pretty awesome seeing it yourself. Wow. Yeah. Well, I sort of I saw that there was women running it. And I thought I want to be involved in that. And I haven't actually been there to the venue. But I've, from what I've seen, it looks really cool. So I've actually got Amy Taylor kebabs. He's going to speak first. So she's doing a speech about my dressing. And then I performed my album. And there's a dancer from Sydney called Aryan Basten, who's also an author that her book on perinatal mental health is coming out this year. And she's written about her experience of postnatal psychosis. But she actually sent me a dance that she'd created to my song self over Instagram. That just blew me away. I didn't know anything about her story. I just saw her dancing. And I saw in her movement that she understood me. She's that's pretty, that's pretty powerful. And so she's going to perform duet with me. So I'm going to sing self, which is that song about breastfeeding and, you know, woman at the start broken open now and that story, so she's going to dance and I'm going to see, Amy will speak and we're going to tell stories. And yeah, so Tickets are available now for that, and that's on the 30th of July. Oh, beautiful. Well, I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. And so people can click on there and see all your goodies. It's a lovely website Who does your drawings of like on your hour? and your little icons and things. My friend, Annabel one. So she's an illustrator from Melbourne. She's a friend of my brothers Actually, she's great. And I had a vision for the image of the front cover, and I do it in pencil. I'm a terrible visual artist. But I had the vision of it. And so she kind of brought it to life. It's lovely. Got the like, the heart is like exposed. It's like, yeah, we'll talk about that a bit about your ID for that front cover. Yeah, so I wanted an image that would capture how I felt when I became a man. And, to me that, it's like having you everything's exposed as like a raw nerve. And also, I think, that idea of an open heart, you are changed. And your heart is now kind of walking around in the world without you sometimes they're at school at your kids. And I wanted to show like, also, like, I'm not wearing any, it's not nude painting, but at the I don't have any like clothes on, you can just see me down to my clavicles with my open heart. It's kind of also reminiscent of sort of biblical art as well. And I got the inspiration to from Florence and the machines album lungs, you know, she has her lungs exposed on her artwork. Yeah, right. Yeah. So but really, I wanted an image that would capture all of it, because I actually when I drew that image, I didn't know I was gonna call it my presence. I didn't know that word. I just was writing what I was feeling. And the songs aren't just about motherhood they're about because of the complexity of being human really, and having big feelings. And so for me, I'm a very deeply feeling person, and my heart is very close to my skin all the time. So that's what I wanted to capture. Yeah, yeah. No, it definitely works. It's Yes, really good. Shoulder to face. So many faces go to places where we get to find books and battles, songs and schemes, somehow left, is there anything else you want to mention before I let you go? A lot today. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. I'll look, I would just like to say if you're a mom listening to this, you're doing a great job, be kind to yourself, give yourself a massive hug, make a cup of tea, put your feet up, if you can. So that I would love to say again, what I would also say is if you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Claire 20. That's probably where everything lives. My website, Cliff twenty.com Is the other spot where you can find about all my events and ticketing, all of that stuff. And I've got beautiful t shirt designs too. So if you like the artwork, you can t shirt with some of them on there's a moss, which is this Each song has its own symbol. So when you come to my show, I give you a lyrics booklet, like a an old school CD cover that has a artwork for each song. And each one has a symbol. So self has the mark because it's the idea of transformation in the darkness. And moths seek light. And to me that's what motherhood and mothering was, in those times so much time spent in the dark, waiting for the light to come. And I was transforming and I didn't realize so that's that kind of I have a T shirt with the math on it for that reason. Really powerful symbol. Lots of things to do with the moon as well, really. So yeah, you can find me over there. I have records as well. I would also say my podcast tons. The new season will be coming out later in the year. But I've got three seasons worth of really rich discussion with women and diverse voices about lots of topics. If you're particularly interested in chronic stress and hormones and you're feeling depleted, gone find that episode with fryer will tell you you won't regret it. It's the story of how I healed outside of music. Everything I did from food and medication and looking at diet and testing and just lots of things that helped me recover from long COVID symptoms. Yeah, that's a really valuable one. And, and yeah, come to a show and if you want me to come play in your area, I bloody love to I'm looking for places to come and bring the music so if you're someone out there that thinks your group of parents or women or community would like some music hit me up. Yeah, good on you. Oh, look. Thank you Claire. It's been so lovely and thank you for spending so much time with me today. We just looked at the clock. Just always made it to Uh, well before my little stuff up in the middle you know what, you know how I fixed the camera? I literally turned the computer off and on and then I started working that's The IT Crowd isn't it? Have you tried turning it off and on? I always joke about that someone made a joke once about if your car wasn't working you just get out shut the door open get back in again. And it should work. It's like a computer we often think that human beings are the same sometimes you just need to turn ourselves off face it yeah right yeah that's what people who do me a favor just go radical rest. I'm really all about that. Reading on Nast. Oh, just bloody. Yeah, so much can be solved in life with a bit more rest. I know that's a privilege but I also think some of the things we do we do out of obligation and guilt checking in the bean and have a nap. Yes, there you go. Chuck it in the bin. That's that's the theme of this show today chuck in the thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Jennifer Donohue Irish painter and writer S3 Ep92 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week Im pleased to welcome Jennifer Donohue to the podcast, Jennifer is an painter and writer from County Clare in Ireland and a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid-20s working in print journalism before returning to college to get a degree in Marketing and Management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created art. Although she loved the act of painting, loved trying to create pretty work and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness, it was lacking in something and it wasn’t until she started back writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. Once she began writing more often, a funny thing happened – she began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there, emerged the new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in paint - and a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poem/prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood - the love, the grief, the loss, the happiness, and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through land and seascapes, botanical art and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked deeper meaning in her art and she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. **This episode contains discussion around pregnancy loss, miscarriage and grief** Jennifer - Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Apologies for my voice at the moment. I'm just cut recovering from a bout of pneumonia coupled with COVID-19 diagnosis. So things have been fun lately, but I am getting there. And I'm pleased to be able to bring this episode to you today. This week. I welcome Jennifer Donahue to the podcast. Jennifer is a painter and a writer from County Clare in Ireland and she's a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid 20s working in print journalism, before returning to college to get a degree in marketing and management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created her art. Although she loves the act of painting, love trying to create pretty work, and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness. It was lacking in something. It wasn't until she started writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. When she began writing more often a funny thing happened. She began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there emerged a new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to Canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in the paint. And a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poems and prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood, the love, the grief, the loss, and the happiness and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through landscapes, and seascapes, botanical art, and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked a deeper meaning in her art. And she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. Please be aware that this episode today contains discussion around pregnancy loss and miscarriage and grief. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Jennifer. It's really lovely to meet you. Yes, and thanks so much for having me. I'm very excited. It's my pleasure. And I've got to say I'm very very grateful of all the sharing of posts and and things that you do with my podcast on Instagram. I really appreciate it very much. Oh, no budget at all, I think well, I look as I said at dinner I love listen to podcasts and you know, some of the guests you've had on are absolutely amazing, amazing women. I mean, you know, these are definitely stories, you know, you want to share out and the little share on Instagram, you know when you can I mean? All of it helps as much ya know. And honestly, it means so much like I don't know, I think yeah, I don't know. It can seem so simple but it makes such a difference and I'm really appreciate it so thank you for that. So we were just I was just saying before I hit record how much I love your your Irish accent. Thanks very much. Tell me about where you're from in Ireland. Yeah, so I live in County Clare. So a little town called Ennis though it's about 10 Tails. It's the biggest town and clear but it's only about 10 15,000 people. So by Australian Standard is Like teeny teeny tiny place. But so if anybody you know, maybe your side of the world might be familiar with like the Cliffs of Moher, maybe you might have heard of that. Yeah, glyphs. Evolver is in County Clare. So that's maybe about 30 minutes from where I live. And originally, Originally, I'm from West Limerick, which is about an hour's drive south of here. Yeah, right. I've been in this for 10 years. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's actually there was a horse that came out here for the Melbourne Cup one year called cliffs have more. I'm saying it right. But yeah, so yeah, I said that. I just went, Oh, yeah, I know that name. Yeah. So yeah, a lot. A lot of people who don't? They've heard it before. So it's kind of a good landmark to give people an idea. It's, it's on the west coast of the country. Yeah. Right. Are you very north, or we're about sort of a year. So no, were very kind of nearly middle of the country. And kind of the rest of us. Yeah, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I'm getting getting good visual. Somewhere. I'd really love to go. I think I watched a lot of Father Ted many years. Oh, yeah. And I just did you get did you get? Did you get to did you get to humor? Oh, you've watched? I've watched five to 10 Australians and you're like, watch this. No, I loved it. I absolute because I was a fan of auto auto handling and been a fan of him for a while. And just like anything he does, I just I just laugh at him. I just think he's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's that other show I did was like Inferno man or third semi man or something. And it was just so ridiculous. But so funny. But now we've got this running joke. Now. You know, the episode where the heat. Ted has to keep Bishop Brennan up the ass. Oh, yeah. Bridget printed up the arse. And we have this joke. Now, if anyone gets kicked on the bottom, my little son who's seven you go, Oh, he's Bishop Brennan is good or bad. But it's very funny. hilarious. Hilarious. So yeah. Anyway, enough of that I could go on and on, but I'm not going to All right, so tell me how you got into your art form. And tell us about what you're doing what you create. So yeah, sure. So I suppose look, I suppose like a lot of people kind of being creative was really important to me, kind of growing up, we were always in really encouraged. You know, like drawing art. I remember one year, Santa Claus bought me this fantastic V tech digital art team. And it was just kind of, you know, you know, sometimes presence just kind of stand out, you're grateful and doing doing it. And, and then when I was a teenager, I did work experience in my local newspaper. And I was like, hang on a minute, people get paid to write. So I just, I just fell in love with the idea of journalism and writing because I loved English and, you know, typical teenager, you know, trying to write stories and novels and all this, you know, wishing for it was actually finished. But you know, you kind of keep writing away, you know, and so I actually did journalism was my first career. And so it was an I did journalism for a couple of years. And I just loved it. I just love being able to write I love to creativity, I love meeting people I loved, you know, just a whole, just the whole idea of it, that you could kind of come up with these ideas and get them on paper and, you know, influence people and people would, you know, read them and, you know, be inspired by them. And, yeah, it was fantastic. It was fantastic. And then in my early 20s, I did a lot of Irish people do and I would love to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Australia, realized that, okay, I don't have a degree. If I want to get back to Australia for longer, you know, you need to have a degree. So I came back to Ireland, and I said, I do a degree in marketing management. You know, I said, marketing is creative. You don't you do something in business. Yeah. And so I did that kind of my mid 20s. And then of course, by the time I'd have three years done, I was like, Oh, come back to Australia. I loved it, but you know, you're kind of starting again. And so it was like, okay, look, I'll get some experience here. So then I kind of fell into kind of marketing and kind of sales roles and the creativity went out the door. Like, you know, the writing, I had been dabbling in bit of art and do a bit of art, like, I don't art in school, I loved art, you know, these are all true, you know, kind of primary and secondary schools. So up to the age of 18, you know, loved it kind of dabbled in art and a little bit afterwards, but it kind of went to the wayside. And then, in 2018, I did an art class, just in the local when it local colleges here, you know, so it was just, you know, it was just a temporary course. And I was like, Oh, God, I really liked this. So, you know, so did I started kind of going back into it, and, you know, just just doing just tried to create, but I suppose, like, a lot of people, you know, I was forcing myself into doing what I thought was, you know, good, Eric, you know, like, if it wasn't detailed, or if it wasn't, blah, blah, blah, you know, didn't wasn't kind of good art. So I just didn't have an understanding of me as a creative as an artist as a visual creative. So, you know, so I was trying to do a lot of things that were completely out of my range, you know, skill level wise, and that kind of thing. But I kept doing because I was getting, I suppose, emotional fulfillment out of it, you know, it was a nice pastime. And, you know, it was kind of getting back their creative, creative spark again, you know, and then we had our Kate Connor in 2019. So, you know, so I was still kind of doing like, little bit of art kind of here and there. And I started doing things like hashtag challenges. So I set up an Instagram page for my art. And, you know, it wasn't that my art was brilliant. But I liked sharing with it, I like connecting with other artists with other creatives and that kind of thing. So it gave me this kind of outlet to kind of appreciate life and art and, you know, just having something I suppose for myself as well, you know, that kind of thing, you know, and so, yeah, so I was doing kind of hashtag challenges. And then I was finding this, you know, teams were starting to, you know, my act was kind of improving, and that kind of thing. And I was like, brilliant. But I still had no kind of, I suppose, connection with my art. And I suppose that's what kind of motherhood has in a roundabout way given me is my connection to my art, especially in the last year. The real value of my art I found over the last couple of years. Now, I know you mentioned trigger warnings. So I suppose I can do trigger warning here. Yeah, so miscarry, though, I'm bringing it up, because it's a definite part of my kind of creative kind of journey. Yeah. So I had my first miscarriage in August 2020. So it's 11 weeks, everything had been fine. Until it wasn't. And so I kind of turned to her again. And, you know, it was kind of giving me that little bit of hockey meat, I you know, I could just do something for myself. And decorating. And a dead saw. got pregnant again. And 22, early 2021 turned round, you know, and I started, you know, I'm just doing some hashtag challenges. And, unfortunately, I had another miscarriage. So go ahead. It's okay. Well, look, I look, I suppose. And look, if you do want to ask questions, I'm happy to answer questions. I bring this up, because it is part of my journey. And it's important to talk about these things, because I don't know, if it's the same in Australia and Ireland. We don't really talk about these things. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, you know, as women as creatives as moderators, you know, these are all part of our journeys. This, you know, you don't you don't talk about, you know, it's kind of, certainly in Ireland, you know, we're like, don't tell anybody, you're pregnant for the first 12 weeks in case something happens. And then you're like, well, if something happens, how are you supposed to bring it up with a woman? Well, I was pregnant, and now I'm not, you know, it's very difficult. It's very difficult, you know, when trying to find a way of dealing with that, you know, especially when you're dealing with didn't know your own, you know, like, you can tell, suppose your friends and obviously your partner and that kind of thing, but it is difficult and you're like trying to find reasons, you know, working through the motions, and I suppose that's very my kind of art and so I've kind of committed as well, you know, it's just helping me discover To me, you don't like kind of just end. But, um, but give yourself something of your own as well, you know, that wasn't, you know, so I currently don't sell my art. So it's like, it's just something for me to enjoy and something to do and that kind of thing. And then. So yeah, so I actually did a core stem with lower heart. So she's an Australian artist over in Adelaide. Yeah. And so So yeah, so I did one of her courses, and you know, and it was just so nice and gentle. And, you know, just had a little community was really nice. You know, it was just like, oh, and it kind of started to open up my eyes, in terms of what my art was doing and what my art could be. So I was like, okay, so we started on that path. And then I had a turd miscarriage. Oh, gosh, in April in April of 2021. All these years just kind of rolling together. Yeah. And, and that was, that was a chemical pregnancy. And that went on for about three months, dealing with the kind of physical repercussions of that. And I was just like, footsy, like, you know, so but, you know, I started doing 100 Edge challenge. So I was like, Okay, I have something to focus on. You know, I was kind of doing away doing the art way. And then it's only been kind of, I suppose, in the last year, then that I've kind of made the actual true connection between motherhood and my art. And suppose this what all the rigmarole stories kind of leading up to? It started 2022 as like, okay, no, I'm just giving myself permission. Okay, we are, you know, we decided, okay, we're not going to try for more kids are done, we're going to, you know, we have one, we're very blessed, very happy. And, you know, I put decided, okay, look, physically, emotionally, spiritually, it's okay to see we're done. And again, I again, I think that's another message that I want to kind of portray in my act and share out in general, because, you know, we're always like, Oh, no, you know, your mother, you should suffer or your whatever, and you should push past your own emotions and your own needs and wants, because, you know, obviously, you know, like, I know, you talk about mom guilt, obviously, wrongly consented to, you're like, Oh, my God, you know, it's going to be an only child. What does that mean? You know, should I just, you know, push myself aside and blah, blah, blah. But I think we have to say, okay, you know, fight sometimes it's okay to say enough. Yes, say, you know, what we're doing. And I suppose giving myself permission to, you know, really listen to myself and my needs, yeah, suddenly opened up things in my art that I had absolutely no awareness of no concept of No, even now, I'm still trying to figure out what it all means. I started back writing, and I started a blog. And then I started writing poems. I don't write poems. But I started writing poems, I started writing prose about motherhood, about, you know, the joy of finding out about you're pregnant. And, you know, the excitement of, you know, you know, giving birth and saying hello to your new child about things like being nap trapped, you know, you're stuck on your baby, and you just absolutely can't move, you know? So I started writing about all this stuff. And I don't know where it came from. Would it just, it was like, everything that I've been kind of doing belong had kind of mashed together, and just suddenly was like, oh, here because I gave myself permission to, you know, listen to myself more just on the argument. And I started, you know, creating different artwork and pieces, based on the poems and prose. Yeah, so I just, yeah, so it's just been, it's just kind of been crazy, as well as try to understand that over the last kind of couple of months, it's only been maybe within the last year. I've really kind of been able to gather the pieces and kind of put them all together and it's been really fun and exciting and it's also helped Me, you know, understand other areas of my life and kind of get centered in other areas of my life. And also, I suppose, you know, like the value of art and creativity in that sense, you know, it can't be underestimated. And I think that's what I really, really fell with that is just kind of like, you know, I feel understood, I feel heard and seen. And it's so funny, like, when I share, you know, it's really hard, it's easier to share the artwork than it is to share the kind of pools and pools and liquidity, but I find that when I share board together, that people are like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've, like felt like that, or, you know, I know where you're coming from, or definitely, you know, so it's that kind of sharing of experiences and decorating that, sometimes, we are always happy to talk about the happy stuff, you know, finding out you're pregnant, it's like, you know, sharing the new baby that can take you on, but the harder stuff is not really shared. And it's really sad. And just, you know, it's just part of the human experience. It is what it is. And, you know, so I kind of tried to share a little bit of everything. Well, I love that look. Honestly, I think that's so it's so important to, for us to be able to talk about the stuff that doesn't go so well, like, for so long. And like previous generations, it's like, oh, no, you know, don't talk about that. We don't talk about that everything's got to be seen to be, you know, just fine. Everyone's got to be, you know, they try this image that we're all coping and everything's great. And it's like, no, enough is enough. Like, I think that's half the reason people have so much trouble with, like mental illness or issues with their, with their health is that they, they feel stifled that they can't talk about things. And it's so important. And thank you so much for sharing so openly. Something I really believe in is that any, like, we could share one thing, and we have no concept of how many people that could make a difference for. So I think you can like never underestimate the power of, of sharing your story. And yeah, thank you for I really appreciate your honesty, like you are starting to get really emotional, when you're talking about how everything came together, when you just said, Enough is enough. It's time literally to listen to yourself. And then it all just came together. And it's like this, this whole thing has opened up, I don't even know how to describe it. But like a thing has opened up. And it's all this amazingness is happening. I don't know how to describe it. And this is one of the moments I'm probably headed out. But you know what I mean? Like, nobody would know, I do know what you mean, and it is important. But you know, sometimes I feel a bit weird sharing it and being open about it. Because, like, for so long, I didn't talk about it. So I didn't. So the first miscarriage happened in August 2020. And I didn't tell anybody about anything that was going on, you know, bear my immediate family, you know, my husband's immediate family. And like one or two friends. I eventually shared a post on my personal Instagram in October 2021. And like this was after we'd met, I met a consultant. So we've got miscarriage clinic and med consultant, you know, to kind of see if we can kind of figure out what was going on. And it was after that ended, I just shared and you know, like, one of my friends was like, we're like, you know, over the course of a year, like you were, you know, you were pregnant for six months, which you were, you know, physical miscarriage, you know, for about three, four months of it. And did you know, and you didn't share anything? And I was like, Yeah, you know, so many women do that. And the minute I shared the post, the amount of women that I was friends with, you know, either on Instagram or Facebook, private message me she's like, Oh, Jen, yeah, you know, I had the same experience, or, you know, I just after having one, or, you know, that kind of thing did happen a couple of years ago when they hadn't shared anything, really. And it's really sad because it is currently you know, it's one in four. We you know, and it is difficult, it is difficult to talk about, and some people can't talk about it, and that's fine. But if you can talk about it. I think sharing your experience and saying that you know what, look, it's shit. But you you will be okay. You know, it kind of helps people who can talk about it maybe so. Yeah, now Good Feet on Reddit look, honestly, I'm I don't want to sound condescending. But what you're doing is fantastic. Really? Good. No, I'm really yeah. Sorry. Like, nice feel like you're awesome. I love it. Yeah, but, but like, in general. It's just and it was, you know, I mean, it was giving that myself that permission to be like, okay, They will look. You know, it is it is what it is like, we can keep going. But, you know, we have happy situation, you know, we have a great kid. I mean, he's absolutely amazing. It's just turned four. Yeah. And he's better look for, you know, and we're like, look, sometimes, you know, it's important more, you know, it's just as important to have happy healthy parents for kids. Yes. You know, that kind of thing. And it's like, and it's very easy to feel like you need to martyr yourself. You know, yeah. And maybe marriage was too strong word, you know, post, you know, it's like, it's important in the Ford picture, and it's all key to take into a picture. You know, I think I think we need you know, so I think it was it was giving myself that permission and didn't suddenly, because I'd been kind of doing the art all along. It just suddenly, like, you know, it just exploded, and it's just, it's just so nice. And it's just, like, it's an outlet for me, it's, you know? Yeah, look, it's just it is, it's a beautiful outlet. You know, you can connect with amazing people like you, like, you know, all people, women, amazing women that you've had on the podcast, you know, I mean, listening to their stories, you know, it's, it's really inspiring, you know, and you know, that you're not alone. And in order to have this thing that you could share with the world, and it's, it's fun, it's fun. After a long day, it's fun to be able to pick pick up paint brush, you know, I work primarily in, like acrylics at the moment, I'm doing most of my stuff on canvas. And it's fun, it's fun, just to see where things go. And you can just, you know, I do like, it's funny, because every, you know, like, so I started off with the kind of poem and prose, and then it just kind of turns into something, you know, I have no idea what is going on, you know, I kind of started to see pictures and stuff in my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, and it kind of, kind of take it in certain directions. And from there, you know, says, interesting, it's, you know, when it's yeah, it's, it's colorful, and it's you look, it's, it's important to use the right side of our brain and to kind of user behind us and, you know, our, you know, our voices or whatever, whatever, it's up to you. You're, you know, this, it's bringing forward and just go with it, you know, Oh, absolutely. I think it's it, like any sort of creativity, I think is just vital for human beings to have something, you know, like you said that, that other side of your brain, and, you know, I like, like you say, like, it is fun, it's a, it's a switch off. Like, it allows us to process things like you've talked about, but the act of, you know, we think I work in childcare, and or not anymore. Sorry, I work in kindy. I worked in childcare for nine years. So I mean, early childhood education, and like, the kids love to paint. And it's like, when, why do we stop this stuff? You know, I know, most, like most adults don't paint unless they, you know, artists, they'll call themselves out. So they're like, Yeah, we don't draw, you know, most of us stop running around and being silly or whatever, it's like, you get to this point, you're an adult, now you have to grow up and act or serious. Like, you're fine. And we have. Yeah, like, I think if I working with kids is so good from for me and my mental health, because it is so fun, and it's so enjoyable, and you get your true authentic self, you know, you can't hide behind, like the kids will see right through you, if you've got some sort of a laugh, and you get to joke around and be silly and engage. It's just so it is so much fun. Like, it's an it's important for adults to play. Yeah. And to kind of, you know, like, you know, for whatever format that comes out, and, and, you know, what I think it's, I think nowadays is more kind of acceptable, you know, like, you know, people do art, you know, if the computer games, if it's music, if it's seeing if it's, you know, reading and that kind of thing, it's, you know, I think it's starting to become more acceptable to have a range of, you know, hobbies or that kind of thing, you all so you have work and so if you're not, but it's important, it's important to our sense, our sanity. Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. To be able to switch off to have something for yourself to have something that you can you know, kind of just relax into and you know, you can enjoy. Yeah, yeah, and like, I guess people, you know, have really stressful jobs or as, as moms it can get quite overwhelming sometimes and That level of stress gets to have something that's not stressful. And that is just really enjoyable and fun is, yeah, it's so important, so important for us. Like, for me, it's just having to have it if I, if I can switch off, you know, my, like, every other modern day, you know, your brain is going 100 miles an hour, you're taking this and that and, you know, you're trying to organize, and you're trying to be 10 steps ahead of yourself. And you're also trying to remember the stuff that you were supposed to do, when did you do all this stuff? And so you're just like, Okay, no, you know, it's just have some time to switch off, have some time for yourself, and be able to give yourself permission to enjoy it and just be like, oh, you know, what? Happier parents, you know, doing whatever little thing did you like to do for you just doesn't have to contribute in any way to anything. Auditing yourself is also important. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Your son, you said he's four. Does he like to come in? And do painting with you as well? Yeah, yeah. So what we do is, we alternate bedtime routines, because my son has like a to our bedtime routine, where he's like, you know, you have to play and read and do this, and then you eventually get him to do his teeth, you know, put on his pajamas and that kind of thing. So we moved him into his big room last year, so I took over a little box room for my art space. Yeah. You know, so like, he came in, he's a box of stuff now, you know, of his own teams, and he'd come in, and we'll do a bit of art, you know, or we do some at the weekend, you know, he loves, you know, he just loves to crack, he loves, you know, kind of painting and that kind of stuff, you know, so it's, and it's great fun, and it's nice, quality time that I can spend with them. You know, sometimes, sometimes we just take over the whole kitchen table, you know, the pages they refer, and we're mixing up paint, and, you know, he's learning about the primary colors, and he's talking about this, that, you know, oftentimes, it's important for our kids to, you know, because they're learning, they're learning to create, they're, you know, they're learning stuff, you know, certain language documents associated with, you know, art and creativity, and they're tapping into that, and they're, like, they're naturally in tune with, you know, they enjoy certain things, you know, that kind of thing. And it's just their imagination, they're playing events, you know, it's, and it's a nice way for us as, as adults to connect with them. Via that, you know, so yeah, like, he'll come in even, you know, he'll come in and do a bit or, you know, if I'm just starting on the canvas, you know, I get him to help me, you know, get all lit up, and, you know, put some colors. And, you know, and he's like, when you're Kansas Mama's like, Yeah, but you're alone? No, you know, so you have to set the rooms, you know, if I'm working on the canvas, you know, there's some canvases you can touch with some of them something that you've kind of nearly finished, and you're like, Oh, no. No, that wouldn't be good for anyone. But that's true that, you know, setting boundaries, that's an important thing to do with kids. You know, I feel like, sometimes parents are scared to say no to their children, or to say no, actually, this is my you can't do this. It's so important for kids to learn that and for them, for them to then know that it's okay for them to have things that other people don't do, or you know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, but that's it, but input and they understand, if you explain to them understand they understand more than we give them credit for? Absolutely, yes. You know, like, if you, if you say to them, Look, no, you know, notice this one is mom's but this one is yours. And you you know, you can do what you want to do so, and I've given him like, there's a couple of my kind of old small canvases that I've given him. So he's delighted with that, and he can paint over them, and he could do this and that, you know, so he has his box itself. And, you know, like, sometimes I let him use some of my paints and He's pure, happy, you know. And it's kind of, you know, it encourages that bond between you and you can also Like you say, it's, you know, you can create your boundaries within this and, you know, and it's good for both of you, you know, I can now having my little fella come in and paint with me, was so good for me to learn to like, just relax a bit and not be so stressed about certain things being perfect. Or, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, oh, no, don't touch that one. Don't and it was like, actually, what does it mean? If he uses that pain, like it was sort of getting things into perspective for me, so it's definitely helped him that way to not stress so and then, once you learned, like you say about different things like, you can paint on this, but don't paint on that. Or if you're going to use these paints, make sure you've got something under it, or whatever it is, once you have that set up, it's like, you can sort of relax a bit and go, Okay, that's cool. He knows not to put that one on the carpet or something, you know? Is that initial setting up? Yes. I can now can relax. Yeah, yeah. But but but that's it. And you know, like, and we can learn from kidssoup when it comes to art, you know, I mean, like, like, you see, you know, they might pull out a painted, you're like, oh, no, that's a good paint. No, I can't use that, you know, might have satin, you might have said practically on us for last three years. It's like, don't use paint, yes to paint. Like, buy more if you you know, use it or, you know, yeah. You know, and just and just go for it and just kind of let yourself loose and let your you know, let yourself imagine and, you know, go with this, you know, that's it. Yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's is definitely lesson we've learned from our kids and just go for it. And just enjoy and just, you know, it's the only boundaries in your art are created by you. Yeah, you know, when you think about it, we are where it wants to set the boundaries, you know, and the limitations. So, you know, we don't have to stay in sight lines if we don't want to, Hmm, let's see, isn't it? Yeah, that's one of the things that took me a long time to get over. But even just making like the choices that I make, when I'm painting, if I can think more like my son, when he paints and not overthink everything so much, like, that's been a good lesson for me to just, yeah, I don't know, I think you can be in your head so much questioning yourself. And like the self doubt and the imposter syndrome, all this stuff, that's all in your mind. And it's like, if you just if you switch off and be like a kid would be, they don't think about all that stuff. They don't think Oh, is someone going to like this, or if I'd done this bit rash, or, you know, we could learn so much from them? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. That's what I found to put, you know, when I started kind of going back painting, what I found was just, I was like, Oh my God, if I don't make this, you know, kind of really realistic looking, or really intricate, looking, you know, are really perfect looking, you know, people aren't gonna like it. And I was trying to force myself into skill level for I was definitely not at, you know, that kind of thing. It didn't it was like, it got really frustrating. So, why can't I do this? Yes, yeah. You know, when I, when I decided to let it go, like I am, you know, I don't paint realistically, if, you know, if you love photo, realistically, you know, if you look at my painting, you know, you know, it's, you know, it's a painting, you're not going to think that you're looking at a photograph, you know, you're not only Samaritan's Purse, like Amazingly, the detail and, you know, the texture and everything they achieve, you know, so once they kind of accepted it, no look, just go and play. And I found this things like the hashtag challenges. And kinda you know, it really, like, it opened up, you know, my eyes kind of flat you could do and just kind of let go of this perfectionism and try to just start to listen, just listen to what's in me, because, you know, we all connect with other people, you know, different things about everybody's work, we'll connect with other people. So you know, my arch with, you know, a Pete some people and other people will be like, that isn't dirt. What are you talking about? You know, that kind of thing, you know? So, so yeah, but, you know, it's all open to interpretation. And, you know, nobody's necessarily right or wrong, but it's, you know, it's, as long as it's making you happy, you know, and like, obviously, you know, I mean, I don't currently send my work. So it's funny, when I got a message from you on Instagram, I was like, imposter syndrome. No, I can't talk about Oh, my God. I was just like, as like, oh, no, she might take the day. She said, My work is so my, this just, you know, like, something that I'm not and I was just like, Well, no, look, you know, I call myself narratives. So I create our own, you know, you know, regular basis, you know, I mean, I Yes, the ultimate team is I would love to start selling my work. Maybe I went this year, maybe I get over myself and for that impostor syndrome to decide and be like, no, okay, you know, I kind of ready but, you know, I've viewed it like, I'm in art school. I'm sad. Tod artists, I'm currently in our school of life. And, you know, and I'm just enjoying it a lot. You know, I think when you give yourself space and to explore and that kind of thing, you know, you do find your kind of truer, authentic voice. And kind of, I feel like I've kind of started to tap into that, but it's only because I've given myself space. And obviously, it's easy for me to say, because, you know, I mean, I worked full time in a non articulated, you know, area. So, you know, I don't have to worry about that. So it's like, I can play, I can give myself space, and that kind of thing, energy isn't so important. And, you know, it doesn't matter whether whether it's your full time job, or a part time job, or, you know, your hobby, can give your space set space to be creative to, you know, do what you want to do. And it's all valid. Yeah, that's it, that's so true. We sort of mentioned the monkey earlier in regards to having one child, how do you feel about it? When it comes to art? Do you feel any of that? Sort of those emotions? And that time? No, no, I think because, okay, because I work full time anyway. Like, demand guilt is, you know, kept from my full time job, you know, because, you know, it's like, you know, you know, so, you know, like, there are like, cases, you know, where you're just like, you feel so bad, you know, leaving, like I kind of went through a phase last year. Where he because I started work at 10, seven, and morning. So you know, so I start really early, and I finished in at, you know, have three, so I have to be awkward, I kind of have five quarter to six American, he started, he was having a face where he get up with me and didn't want to leave, he bought his eyes out. And my poor husband didn't know, I'll be dealing with this. And, you know, I feel so guilty, you know, going out to work and him crying, and you're leaving for me hard to deal with this. And you're just like, Oh my God. You know, like, look, it was a face you got over it, it's fine. You know, you know, that kind of thing. But they're like, look, you can see Mom relatable, so much. So much different things. And it's so hard, you know, and I suppose you know, it might, you know, it'll show up differently for me to new and, you know, that kind of thing. But there's always I feel like there's always something to feel guilty about you like, Oh, God, am I doing enough? I mean, you know, this mother is doing this, or, you know, you're you're looking at social media, like, Oh, my God, you're doing like, you know, these fantastic, you know, things and they're going out every weekend and look at, look at how they're living life. And we're like, you know, I'm sitting on the floor playing Duplo instead of, you know, taking out some fancy, whatever, you know, adventure park or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. What is it but it doesn't matter, as long as you're happy lungs, your family or, you know, happy you know, you have to you have to let go of that. And it's really, really hard sometimes, you know, because you're just like, Oh, God, you know, I should be doing more. But no, I think once you let go of kind of that, and do your best as all you can do. And you're always going to feel guilty about sorting, because there's always something that you could probably be doing a bit better. Yeah. You know, you're only human, you can only do so often. It's like, it's I think manga is just it just goes with the territory, you know? Yes. I don't know if you ever get over it at all. Maybe Maybe you do eventually, hopefully. Get that's the thing like is if you're not doing one thing, you think I should be doing that. And then if you're doing that thing, you think I should be doing that. And it's just this constant thing that plays out in your mind. Yeah. And I get I get points where I'm like, No, don't think that. Like, don't don't worry about that, you know, but then you find like, 10 minutes later, something else will happen. And you'll be like, Oh, it's just so yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. But that's it. And it's hard and it doesn't matter. It's just, it's just constant. So you just you do you have to let it go with you came and I wrote this poem. Just about just literally, literally, it was about debt. I actually probably should have brought it down. So I was like, the last line was like, Don't give me your shoots because they're not going to carry and it's true. And it's like, you know, what's, you know? Like, what's valid for you and your family? Your kids? You know, isn't that sincerity was going to be valid for mine and this kind of entity is hard because you're you are seeing people do you know XY and Z? And you're like, oh, maybe I should maybe I should do that. Or, you know, society you feel like society's expecting certain things from you. There's maybe you're not. Maybe you know, it's not suitable for your family and you just do what's right for you what's right for your family and trust yourself this, you're doing the best you can. That's it, isn't it? Having that confidence in yourself to say actually, no, I don't need to be going and doing x y Zed that such and such. Oh, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like at the moment here at home. Much to my disgust my loungeroom my good Landrieu is being taken over by a big game of monopoly that seems to be never ending. Like monopoly and we just got home this morning. We played my son plays tennis my little little work. And they had a social day for like parents or family or whoever to play. And they put us in all in teams, this mixed doubles teams. I haven't played tennis I think properly for like, I don't know. Honestly, 15 years like a long time, but it was great fun. I really enjoyed it. And we had a great heat and everything and then I got home. All I do is sit on the couch and have wrist. Yes, this monopoly game just looking at me like ah, should be playing this game. I wanted gone out of my of my lounge. I want to finish this guy. And then degree my little fella comes, Hi, Joe. I'm playing Monopoly. I'm like, if I can lay down on the floor, I'll play. But you know what I mean? Like there's always something out and I and it's like, sometimes you just gotta put your blinkers on and go No, I actually, this is where my focus is. This is what I want to be thinking of now and the rest can just disappear. That's it, but let's put guaranteed, right? It's the things we're like, oh, God, we shouldn't be doing that. So your game of monopoly is something that your kids are going to remember to be bringing in open if you remember when we played that monopoly game that lasted for like 10 weeks, and we just take every single day. And you know, and it was probably you know, it's best for you know, so it's just yeah, it's just you know, for kids just wanted to keep just want you to connect with them. Kids want you to play with them, you know, again on the floor, you know, do you know connect with them? Forever. We do like to be connected with you know, like mean, Connor, you know, we pay so much to glow and he's big into Ghostbusters. Now we're not sure if we're to Ghostbusters thing came from but like he's like, you know, like, literally like Ghostbusters, and it's old school Ghostbusters from like, our childhood, you know, the 90s Like, you know that Ghostbusters? Yeah. And that's all he does all he wants to do. He just wants you just just sit down play with him. And, you know, it's just, you know, and those are the things that they remember. They don't necessarily, you know, to be to be crazy things. It's like the small connections that you can make the on day, you know, whether it's true play or creativity or music or, you know, that kind of thing, though, those are the things that they remember. And you remember and you know, so it's kind of Yeah, but it's hard because you're trying to you know, you're like oh my god the kitchen the state and obtained loads of laundry. And that's exactly, you know, you're trying to you're trying to find the balance someplace between all of us. And sometimes it works sometimes, you know, so some weeks, some weeks I know I fight even though I'm like, I'm totally on top of this, you know, papers and started you know, we're playing and then the next week is just an absolute shit show. And you're like, what? Yeah, no balance. I find that it does go it goes in flows. Like it's never like, I don't know if sometimes, like a clean up. And I think I'm gonna keep this really clean. Like what? Lately I've been doing my cupboard. Make sure I put everything back away after I finished wearing it or put the line the shoes back up. So like, how long is this going to last for your record? It's not going too bad. But yeah, nothing are fine with me anyway, it's always it ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You do. You just have to go with it. And you just have to just try to give yourself a bit of grace and say, Okay, well, look, it is what it is. Let's just, you know, make the best. That's it. Isn't it being kind to ourselves? I think that's yeah, that's sort of the underlying thing that I think always get back to in these conversations is just, we've just got to be kinder to ourselves, you know, give us a carousel some slack and yeah, not be so quick. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cuz there's, like, there's always this weight of expectation of, you know, you could have how you can do doing things differently. But I suppose like that you just have to try and connect with yourself and You know, with your partner and with your kids and pots, rice, what's right for you? You know, and just go from there. It's really all you can do is, yeah, that's it easy so with your artwork at the moment, what sort of what? Where do you gather your inspiration from at the moment? Is it still working through the emotions of of losing the babies? Or is it more day to day? Things that you feel? It's, it's mostly, it's mostly day to day, like, you know, I mean, I like as I say, like, I think it's important to address all the emotions. So, you know, motherhood isn't, you know, just joy, it is grief, there is loss, whether whether you've lost pregnancies or lost, or, you know, I mean, there's a sense of, you know, like, you lose yourself a little bit, you know, because you gain a new you, you know, and push, like, like I was saying, you know, so like I did want about being that tract, and, you know, to painting does emerge from it is this big, massive waterfall basin, because we were in Iceland last year, so space and one of the waterfalls there, it's this big, massive waterfall, and two big rocks, and loads of flowers, and this really colorful in this light, you know, so you're not trapped. So you're stuck, you know, between a rock and a hard place, and just like the end of the end of the team, you know, the whole poem is like, you know, do I need to pee, you know, but I'm not trapped. So I can't, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, and you're trying to kind of go through all the emotions, you know, so you're, like, oh, there's somebody at the door, but I'm not trapped, I can't get up to or, you know, watch for the TV, because, you know, I'm not trapped. I can't, you know, I should really shower, eat or do laundry, but I'm not trapped. And in the end of it is like, what's that? What's my bladder, you know, like, I do need to pee. So that's what kind of waterfall came from, it's like, oh, waterfall, you know, what you're, you know, kind of just making, you know, it's just, it's about fun that I did like another one. Like, my favorite moment, you know, so it's about your favorite moment with your kids, you know, so it's, you know, I taking this photo of Connor who's walking off the field. And so you've just been blue sky, and you know, the field. And so, instead of the sky, I did all these, like, little postcards of moments did you have with your kids. So you know, so, you know, like, one was, you know, in playing in a puddle, or, you know, Bubbles, or you know, what kind of reading or, you know, like, all of these little, you know, to talk to small moments, we remember, okay, they might necessarily remember, but we remember, you know, leading to them not watching their favorite TV show. And, you know, how all of those are kind of, you know, your favorite moments that you kind of gather up along the years, you know, once saw another, you know, painting was inspired by that, and I did this big sunflower, I don't know, if I'll ever be able to sell it. I think he's probably talking a bit too much. You know, so it's about love first, sort of, like finding out, you know, when you find out, you're pregnant, and you're like, Oh, my God, it's a you know, it's an amazing feeling. And, you know, you can kind of go through it, and then you're just, you know, you're waiting, you know, you've all these emotions and everything, you know, so it's just just be happy. So clarity, and all that have layers, you know, I've worked, I've worked with a lot of layers and, you know, bright colors, and, you know, so, yeah, it's like, it's, there's so many emotions, you know, but I do feel this, you know, it's important to talk about my journey, because, you know, that is very came from, you know, there is, there is, you know, loss and grief and stuff associated with, you know, being a parent being a martyr. But there's so many happy moments, there's so many nice moments, and it's just, you know, I'm working on what never diminished and just, it's all flowers, it's like, you know, it's based on I can't wait to meet you. So, you know, all these, like, new moments that you have with your kids. So, you know, obviously, the first moment of scene opened or a newborn and, you know, just arrived, you know, but, you know, each step each, you know, step into child's life is kind of a new step for you in your relationship with your kids, you know, and it's, it's amazing so you can celebrate the kid, you know, as a war as the higher you know, each step that they kind of come along and they're kind of like blossoming entities, you know, Hmm, amazing, amazing flora, you know, so So yeah, so I tried to, I tried to cover, you know, a range of softens, you know, like, it's funny because, you know, the writing would contribute or strange times like I mean, I might because like, remember once I was walking so we dropped kind of off to crash so, you know, I was walking on to Greyhound so I was walking, you know, when a trike with my two greyhounds, and you know, these lines were coming to me, so I had to stop after decided or put into the footpath after, you know, and I was on my phone type annoyed. Because if I don't write it down, I'm not going to remember it. I'll be kicking myself because I believe that was perfect. Why did you write it down? Yes, yeah, I'm doing that. And it's just and you just, you know, and it's, you know, so you have to just kind of go with it. And, you know, write your dough, and, you know, the note app, you know, I've got, you know, all these lines and an otter, you know, and, and sometimes, like things will just come like just randomly, you know, and it's all the like, little moments, you know, it's kind of I was driving home one evening with Connor, and it was hard to keep them a week, because it was Derrick girls, it was kind of around five o'clock, or halfway or something. And, you know, I was trying to get Louie. He's a big fan of boys. Yeah, we love Louie, this house is great. So trying to get that on, you know, and that, you know, that kind of inspired another poem. You know, it's just like, just, you know, there's so many things, you know, that you kind of go just day to day that you can kind of think about and remember, and I like to kind of make the connections of Dash, you know, so it's not like, so it's not just the big moments is the small moments, you know, kind of, yeah, that you kind of remember and you take on board, you know, so it's kind of it's, it's interesting, just to see how things translate first of all into words and did bring it out into, you know, a painting and so, so yeah, so it's kind of it's been a journey for me didn't try to relay that, you know, how to share data with other people. So it's like, in my head, I'm like, Oh, this makes perfect sense. You know? And then you're trying to explain to somebody else, you're like, oh, okay, yeah. That's something cool. Yeah. So just, it's, it's just, you know, a journey of exploration. And I think, again, it's going back to that giving myself permission to explore, to learn, to identify, you know, kind of how I can kind of best communicate all of this stuff out of my hand, you know, and onto, you know, paper or canvas, you know, whatever. And it's so it's yeah, it's interesting, it's fun, and it's, you know, and, and as I say, you know, like, when I start sharing is, start sharing the meaning behind the paintings. And people are like, Oh, okay, yeah, you know, they kind of get it more so, like, what I'd love to do is have an exhibition, you know, prehab, the paintings, and you have the pros kind of behind it. So people can kind of make that connection, and you're like, Okay, you know, so they can kind of see where everything comes from. And, you know, that kind of thing. Because, you know, when you start sharing that the amount of people who'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, that's, that makes sense. Or I felt that or, you know, so yeah. Like, as, as artists as creatives, you know, we can put into, you know, words or, you know, visual effects, what other people can't necessarily, you know, so you can kind of make that connection, you know, with, you know, with the motions with that kind of thing. And, you know, that's how you can build your connection, build your community, and then go from there. And that's, you know, that's where I'm aiming for, you know, to share these experiences with older people. Because, you know, a guarantee, like, every single model has had this kind of story. We're trying to keep their kid awake in the car. Oh, yeah. If you see, though, you're not going to sleep until midnight tonight. Exactly. So you do whatever you can to, you know, try to keep the kid awake or keep the kid entertained. And definitely, you know, so it's like, we have all these shared experiences that, you know, they might be slightly different to each other, but, you know, they're, you know, the same you know, so you know, oh, sorry. No, no, no, I was just gonna say, I've got a funny story when it comes to trying to keep a child awake. My my first son, who's now 15. I had to try and keep him awake while I was, you know, there's sort of seats you get put on the back of your bicycle. And yeah. And so we're coming back from a friend's house and I could feel his head pushing into my bag. Like, trying to steer like really safe, trying to lift your colleagues, LAX, I'm particularly under the chin and the kid who just fell asleep on the back of the bike. And I swear, they sleep for 10 minutes. And that adds like four or five hours on to how it's like this recharge nap. Oh my gosh, yeah, amount of times we've done on the trip, just to get, you know, somewhere, boom, off, he goes, like, oh, no, no, he's gonna be up all night. Yeah, that's it, you're like, can you teach me how to do that, because that would be very useful. 10 minute nap and just have to be rising, it will ask you. Want to ask that when you're talking about you, being able to express your emotions and your ideas through prose and through physically painting, do you find one is easier or harder than the other or that you find comes more naturally? Because I'm asking this because I once had Katie Callahan on the podcast, and she's a singer songwriter, and she also heights and we had this conversation about how different or I can't remember what it was, but how she approaches each sort of medium in a different way. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on that. So yeah, it's, it's funny, I find with the writing, it just comes out in spurts. So it just like, literally, I can just No, I can't and poems and prose, okay. They're very rough. You know, I mean, I don't want reIated them, necessarily. Some of them, you know, I might kind of horn but I just, I just let them go. And they're just, you know, that's, that's what they are, you know, and some of some of them are nice, you know, nicer, you know, better put together than others. You know, what I just I just kind of, it just flows I find, or else sometimes I kind of get a couple of lines. You know, as a character ended up, I go back to the couple of weeks later and be like, Okay, no, this is what I need to say, here, you know. And, with the paintings, I like to have a couple of paintings going at the same time. So sometimes, it might be that I do, like, I like to work in there. So sometimes, I might do a couple of layers, and I might have no idea what's going to happen under the canvas. But then it's like something in my head, it's like, oh, no, you need to kind of try to do this, you know, and then other times, it's like, this is what this canvas is going to say, I know exactly what's gonna go on. And I can just, you know, kind of go into. And so it varies, it varies. You know, I don't have any set process. It's, you know, sometimes it comes to the sparks, sometimes, like, I find them like, really, really creative. And I suppose that's another thing that I'm trying to kind of figure out for myself as well. In terms of my process and my cycles, you know, they go find, sometimes enough very creative and I find, you know, to, you know, around kind of November and into December, no, no interest in creating at all, and, you know, and, and then after Christmas, like, oh my god, I have so many ideas, I've got to get everything down and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, you know, you know, so far I kind of before Christmas, I was doing a little bit of writing and that kind of stuff, you know, but then suddenly, like the art was like, Oh my God, I need to paint the need to paint and you know, so it's so yeah, so it's kind of it does come in cycles, it does, you know, and bought it and kind of present a little bit differently I find for myself, you know, I'm currently in a position where that's fine. You know, I'm sure did if I was a commercial artist, if I was trying to you know if this was my livelihood. Yep, you know, that kind of thing. So I do think I'm kind of luckier that way because I can just lettings. lettings, you know, calm and I'm enjoying that process at the moment. And you know, without the pressure. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So, so yeah, I do. I do. I do think if I was like you know if this was if this was my job and I needed to finish X number of paintings in the month, you know, that kind of thing to pay my rent. You know, it might be I suppose was, well, you know what, that pressure is good too, because you kind of it forces you to sit down, say, Okay, well, no, look, you know, what am I doing here? You know, I try to resolve and try to resolve stuff. But certainly at the minute, it's, it's very much intuitive, it's very kind of like, okay, and I do try to work with like a limited palette. I did, I got a book about color mixing, to Christmas before last, and I was like, oh my god, this is brilliant. Because this was like, a lot of like, you know, artists, when it first started off, you know, you want a tube of every color, you don't have to have a tumor, you have to have a tumor that, Oh, that's such a pretty color rubbish that, but I've kind of tried to pare it down note about like, maybe 10, you know, 10 colors, and I love blue. Like, there's so much blue, in my, you know, in my work Bush, I find like pink and green sofas actually come into a lot more, you know, kind of different variations, you know, now, so it's just, yeah, I find I find there's no set way. But at least if you leave yourself kind of open, you'd be surprised what comes through, you know, entity entities. Yeah, as I said, writing is definitely large refer in how it comes through soldiers, and I just let her just let her just let her come through, you know, and just like I'm writing blogs and stuff as well, at the minute, I'm doing 100 Day project at the moment. So I kind of tried to be kind of vigilant and writing blogs and that kind of thing, you know, kind of so I suppose all the dashes kind of helping things as well, and just kind of making things make more sense, you know, do you find do you do? Well, when you set yourself a task like that they you know, like, everyday, I'm going to do this, like it's do sort of stick to it pretty well. No? I, let's be honest. I, you know, if I set myself for, like, Oh, when I have to do blah, blah, blah, every single day, you know, I'm just like, Oh, really? No. But if I allow myself Okay, so look, this is the general schedule, this is my general idea. This is what I'm working towards. And if I can do a little bit every day, it didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I can, I can work towards it, and it works out, you know, but, you know, like, I wouldn't be like, my 100 Day project, it's about systems and sharing. So it's kind of, like, sharing on social media sharing, sharing, and podcasts. You know, and just kind of understanding, you know, about my connection, and you know, how to how to connect better with people, you know, that kind of thing and just trying to, you know, see what works better, you know, try to get regular racing, you know, and that kind of thing, you know, so it's, it's just, it's about building consistency, and connecting with the community and that kind of thing. So I find that there's a lot of value indoors. You know, some people are fantastic, and they paint every single day, you know, they might do like a mini painting every day. And it's just, it just wouldn't fit in my schedule. Like, I mean, there's some days where I just don't want to paint, there's some days where I just can't create, because it's been a long day, I've been up since whatever hour, you know, just work, you know, family life, you're doing dinner, you're doing this, you're doing that and you just want to sit down and watch Netflix, you know, you know, you have to you have to allow yourself that time as well and kind of try not to punish yourself for being human, you know, so like, like, from for me to undertake a project is very much, you know, trying to connect with the community trying to build consistency and work towards a greater goal. And by doing that, you know, it kind of works. It works better for me. Hmm, yeah, that's yeah, it's good. i If someone says to me, I have to do like a thing every day. I just shut down. I'm like, no, no, that's it. It feels so overwhelming, right from the start, you know, but yeah, but it does. Yeah, it does. Like I love to hashtag challenges. So there's a couple of hashtag challenges that I tried to kind of follow along with loosely every year. So in January, there's so the nerd paint podcast, they do 20 For 20 Day Challenge in January, you know, sort of painted or do something every day for 20 minutes, you can do that. Yeah, that's the TiVo. And there's a couple of artists that I follow that do hashtag challenges, especially at the start of the year. So Phoebe Gander, She's based in New Zealand. She does a 31 day challenge in January. And then Susan net of course, is in she's over in Ballarat actually puja. So yeah. It's really cool to see him extremely close to you. I'll say a few weeks ago, actually. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So yeah, yes, it's He does painting as a practice challenge in February. You know, so so like, there's various kind of hashtag challenges and stuff that you can follow this literally, like, there's a starting in the end, it's like, you know, one month, you know, you can, you can kind of achieve that, you know, and it's kind of I like to I like to follow along with those and, you know, it's, it's fun, I think it's good for you, because you kind of build, you build some consistency you build, you know, you can connect with people, you know, who are also doing it, that kind of thing. You know, so it's, it's, it's fun, but yeah, like that, you know, I mean, if I, you know, to take with the 100 day challenge, if I had to do something every day for 100 days. I feel like I was a failure. If I miss one day, you know, that can do it. Yeah. Yeah. So by giving myself Okay, 200 days, and I have, you know, kind of goals, kind of weekly goals that can change and try to hit and if I don't hate him, Okay, well, look, you know, do better next week. Yeah. Yeah. I always find it's nice to always to see what other people are doing as well, like I can, I can't get very inspired. There's so many screenshots I kept on my phone of people painting because they think, Oh, I love how they've done that. And I might not be like, I don't want to replicate their work. But there's an idea of how they used something to make a texture or they, you know, just some color combinations. Oh, wow. So I like I take a lot of inspiration from others. I don't end up necessarily always attempting it, but I like looking at it, you know? Yeah, but, but I think that's important to be able to sit back and relax and kind of take it in and think about stuff and look about look at things what you like what you don't like, do you do much painting? Yeah, I love I it's just a bit of fun. Just it's like my, just haven't done any for a while at the moment. And same thing, I've got to be right in the mood for or need to do it. But I just I just love messing around with it. Really? I enjoy. Yeah, enjoy. Yeah. Yeah, but it's fun. It's just I think it's, you know, what, it's just getting letting loose and, you know, trying out new things. And yeah, like that, you know, I think it's, it is important to sit down and look at, you know, consider your work, you know, that kind of thing and allow yourself time to sit with it and see, okay, well look, you know, whether it's writing, whether it's visual, you know, sitting down and taking it in and saying, okay, is this is this doing what I wanted to do? Or, you know, is there something else that it's, you know, trying to see, or that I need to see and darkening and also entities and we don't get enough time. You know, we're just very busy. We don't necessarily give ourselves enough time to kind of just sit back and say, you know, what, look, I just entered I do I like to do that sometimes, you know, even if I don't feel like creating, sometimes if you just go and sit with, you know, sit with yourself or look through your sketchbooks or through, you know, whatever, you know, or just play, you know, if you play an instrument, just, you know, clean, easy sound Did you like to play you know, and just, you know, just sit with that and enjoy it? And you know, there's so much value in that. And we don't we don't put enough emphasis on it. Yeah, I think yeah, this is this whole idea that something's got to have an outcome, like there has to be a result to something it can't just be for the sake of whatever, it has to have this outcome, this capitalist ideal that our society seen that, you know, and that's, that's why I like to talk about the value of art, you know, like, just because, like you talked about not selling it. That's, that's insignificant, I think, next to either the gain that you receive from your art and then others do by you sharing it, you know, it doesn't have to have this this end outcome. Would that look, that's a debt. Exactly, yes. You know, what I mean, I'm a better person, I'm a better person, I'm a better mother a better partner. Because it creates because I have that space to do something that I want to do. And, you know, and I can give myself permission, I don't have to answer to anyone else. I do what I want to do, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, and like, I mean, look, if you can make money from your art or you know, creating courses, you know about your art and that kind of thing. Fantastic. That's amazing. That is amazing. But, you know, creating for creating sake for yourself is valuable, too, you know, and we have an You know, and it's good, it's good to just be able to sit back and just relax and just look, look at what you've done. And just, you know, even if it's big, messy, you know, muddy, you know, Ting under, you know, an A pit and some paper and you're just like, 40s, this, if you enjoy the process, if you're, if you've after having a long day, if you just need to just just do something, there's value in it, because it's helped your mood, it's relaxed, you it's, you know, you process whatever you need to process and now you can say, okay, okay, read, you know, and you go from there. And that's, that's hugely valuable. And we need to do that, and we need to do have more times and, you know, why not allow ourselves to enjoy things that we enjoy? You know, yeah, that's so true. I know that I, I have times when I just think I, you just get so overwhelmed, like you were saying before, like the stuff in your head, and then physical stuff you've got to do, and you just go. And it's like, you have to reset yourself, it's like you have to recalibrate and having that timeout, like he said, where you're in charge of it, no one's telling you what to do. It's like your theme. It's, I couldn't live without it. Like, honestly, I would not be a sane person. If I couldn't do. That's exactly it. And, and that's, and that's where that's where the value is in it. You know, I mean, you know, we're humans are born to create, you know, I mean, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, inverted commas. Good. You know, I mean, 14 pot is good anyway, like, you know, I mean, I said already, you know, when somebody will look at my art to be like, Well, no, that's, that's not art, you know, that kind of thing. It's like, well, actually, yeah, yeah, she is, you know, okay, you have your opinion that that's fine. No water. But, you know, everybody's interpretation is different. You know, I mean, somebody might look at a photorealistic painting be like, that's beautiful. That's art. Whereas it might look at an abstract piece of like, what is this? You know, so it's so it's like, everybody's interpretation is different. And, you know, that doesn't diminish, you know, yeah, the value value of essence, you know, yeah. I think there's art to creativity is, like, hugely important. And, you know, for people who don't do it, or haven't given themselves permission to do it, you need to, you need to for you, it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter what it is, you know, if it's reading books, if it's playing computer games, if it's, you know, writing in a journal, if it's doodling on, you know, paper, if it's writing songs, if it's playing music, if it's listening to music, it was dancing in your kitchen, you know, if it's creating art, like creativity, and knowing yourself to tap into, you know, you know, your creative side, you know, kind of relax it, do it, do it, you know what I mean to work, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be good, you don't have to share it with anyone, like, you can create art, and not share it with anyone. And it can be just for you, or you can write and it can be just for you. And it's still valid. You know, it doesn't have to be seen to be valid, it doesn't have to have a monetary value to be valid. And, you know, I mean, if you can, and want to create, you know, an income from your art, or your creativity, or your creative practice, whatever it is, that's fantastic, too. I mean, that that should be celebrated. But I think we just need to celebrate, giving ourselves permission to do what we want, you know, and just go create and just, you know, use their hands, user minds user, you know, creative voice, whatever it is inside you and just let it out. And just Yeah, and just go for it. Yeah, that's so well said. Good on you, Jennifer. Honestly, it's been lovely chatting with you today. Thank you so much for having me on SSH and open I got your message and Instagram. I was like, this woman has been hacked. She wants to talk to me. Why? Because what you've, what you've shared today has been so valuable, and I appreciate it so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or so subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.