Alison Newman is a singer and songwriter based in Mount Gambier, South Australia. She has developed a heartfelt, personal approach to her music. Her sound is deeply focused on storytelling, and her songs have a strong narrative component, which highlights the emotional link between the artist, and the songs she sings. Alison's music strikes to the heart of her audience. She uses the power of music to transport the listener emotionally. Alison has had a multitude of musical opportunities over the years, which has allowed her to grow and extend on her musicality - from small vocal ensembles to large choirs, duos and singing with many and varied musicians. Alison was nominated for the South Australian Music Awards Folk Artist Peoples Choice Award in 2019, 2020 and 2021, making the Top 5 in 2019 and 2021. She won the South Australian State Final of Listen Up Music 's 'The Songwriting Prize' for her original song Pieces of My Pain, and has her song performed live in Sydney in January 2022 for the national prize. Her debut album of original music entitled "Heart Songs" was released in late July 2019. She has since released 3 stand alone singles, "Sunshine Sundays" in November 2019, "It's not Christmas without you" , in December 2019 and "For the rest of my life " on Valentines Day 2020. Watch the film clip here. Alison has also released many remixes of songs from her Heart Songs album - Nadine using traditional Celtic instruments, acoustic piano mixes of My Angel , Strength in Numbers and Here with Us Tonight, and a dance floor remix of Kasper. During the Covid19 lockdown of 2020 Alison shared her love of creating covers in her project circa aurora . She took well known songs and covered them in her own unique style. You can listen to them on all the streaming services. Alison has just released the first track from her new album Wolf, which you can find more about here She is also works with Aussie DJ and Producer LT Balkin on many collaborative tracks with the first track Smoke and Roses released in April 2021 . Alison has also done 3 songs with Russian/Egyptian DJ Babak Bazgosha. Alison is an experienced wedding, events and venue performer. MORE ABOUT ALISON... Alison started singing as a child and never stopped! Her first performance was singing 'Silent Night' at the Reidy Park School assembly when she was 5 years old. Throughout Primary School Alison was a prolific writer of poetry and stories, never hesitating to share her work or volunteer her services when a concert or fundraiser was being organised. She wrote and performed 2 songs, self accompanied at the piano, at a school concert in year 6. She had some incredibly supportive teachers during this time who encouraged her creativity, namely Geraldine Hinkley, Lyd Kostelnik and Heather Struthers. Her earliest exposure to music came in many varied forms. At home mum played Boney M, ABBA and Olivia Newton John, her dad enjoyed country + western music such as Don Williams and Johnny Cash. Her Nana was fond of Scottish pipe bands and Dolly Parton. Her grandmother loved classical music and Alison enjoyed looking through her extensive vinyl album collection. Alison attributes this eclectic blend to the reason she loves just about all kinds of music to this day. Her first formal singing lessons were brief, learning about the correct diaphragmatic breathing technique before having to quit due to other after school commitments such as horse riding, gymnastics and playing the organ. Alison fondly recalls the Sunday afternoon concerts that her and her sister Emma would put on for her parents, dressing in matching outfits with denim skirts, tights and leg warmers - dancing on the coffee table. Tennis racquets featured as guitars and hair spray cans as mics. The girls would often make videos singing to their favourite artists such as the Bangles, Belinda Carlisle, Morris Minor and the Majors and Bananarama - this was the early 90s remember! After starting high school Alison auditioned to be a member of the Mayfair Singers - her sister Emma had been a founding member just a few weeks earlier. Alison recalls being a bit annoyed that she missed out on the Primary Schools Musical Festival experience, as this started after she had left Primary School. Peter Habib was pleased to have her along, and Alison enjoyed the experience of harmony singing, learning to sight read and the numerous performance opportunities that Mayfair gave her. She spent 20 years as a member, many of those as a leader and Committee Member. She also gained experience in small group singing, duos and trios, and very very large choirs during this time. Her love of harmony singing endured and she enjoys singing with her sister Emma to this day in their Em and Al duo. After leaving Mayfair in 2004, Alison decided to take a step back from organised groups and 'do her own thing'. This lead to the creation of her solo brand and more work at weddings, parties and functions. Throughout this time her love of writing returned, and the 'Heart Songs' album idea was born. She also enjoys collaborating with her sister Emma, and Emma's husband John creating ambient/new age relaxation and meditation music called Alemjo Alison is a mother of 2 boys Digby and Alex, and lives with her husband Ben and cat in Mount Gambier. She produces a podcast called The Art of Being A Mum and in her spare times loves playing Fortnite with her boys and chilling out at home.

Amy Siegfried US podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep56 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Amy Siegfried, a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa Oklahoma, USA and a mother of 1 - AKA The Tiny Human. Originally from Las Vegas, Amy’s athletic career was short-lived, but she fell in love with the world of sports. That learned love for sports came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports, working as an intern in a Major League Baseball Club. She’s lived internationally, which provides her with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought, as women, we are constantly hurdling unrealistic expectations, but what if we could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy finally founded her company Last Night's Game with her brother. It was born out the idea of how do you go to work in a that male dominated world and converse in sports, Not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like foods, travel, celebrity gossip and music associated with significant sporting events. Think, the Super Bowl Half Time show, WAGS, sports fashions and off the field goings on. They launched their email publication and website first, then 4 years later the podcast Sports Curious was born. They believe in short and sweet, emails are about a 3-4 minute read, and podcasts max of 5 minutes, supplying interesting tid bits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing, partnerships and public relations and she has also presented a TedX speech . Today we chat about women supporting each other, celebrating your wins, and having each other's back rather than judging each other. Last Night's Game on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Watch Hoda Kotb's induction speech Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Amy Siegfried. Amy is a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa, USA. And as a mom of one originally from Las Vegas. Amy's athletic career was short lived, but she fell in love with the world of sport. That learn to love for sport came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports working as an intern in a major league baseball club. She's lived internationally, which provides him with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought as women were constantly hurdling, unrealistic expectations. But what if she could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy founded her company last night's game with her brother. It was born out of the idea of how do you go to work in a male dominated world and converse in sports, not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like food, travel, celebrity gossip, and music associated with significant sporting events. Think the Superbowl halftime show WAGs sports fashions and the off field goings ons. They launched their email, publication and website first then four years later, the podcast entitled sports curious was born. They believe in short and sweet emails are about three to four minute read and podcasts and maximum of five minutes supplying interesting tidbits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing partnerships and public relations. And she's also presented a TEDx speech. Music used in today's episode is from LM Joe, an Australian New Age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to the podcast. Amy. It's a real pleasure to meet you and to have you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So we're about to you at the moment. You're in the US. Yes, I am in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Oklahoma. For those who are not familiar, I just write about as I like to call it Texas, the Texas hat. So just because there's like a cowboy hat to Texas. That's a cool way of describing it. Right. Right. Well, I'm from Las Vegas, and most people have heard of Las Vegas. So from Yeah, so you're originally from Las Vegas. So you've lived in other places around the world to whereabouts have you? Have you been? We Well, I've lived across the couple places in the US obviously from he lived in Phoenix. And we lived in Singapore and now we live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah, that'd be pretty exciting living in Singapore. It was a it was a really exciting and someone actually asked me yesterday if I missed it, and I said, Yes. There's certainly pluses and minuses to everything being 26 hours of flying time away from your family is a little far but there's so many wonderful things. And I said to someone, like what do you miss my, the food and the diversity? I just love the mix of people and, and that's what I really learned to appreciate. And I think the more that I've traveled, the more I've understood I understand that. Basically everyone's the same we all want the same few things for ourselves for our families, and its safety, its food, and you know, we want to be happy to have good health and so I mean, that's truly what we all want and the more you travel the smaller the world becomes. Because that same it's the same inner woven vein through no matter where you live. what language you speak. Yeah, yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Like because often we say oh, we're all so different and blah blah But yeah, when it comes down to it we all we all have our needs our basic human needs for survival. Yeah, right. That's really all I mean, when it comes down to it when when all things hit the fan like that's all you really need in the in the, in the in the big pictures and so on. Think that's just really interesting part of everyone bonds over food and different things, and maybe different food and maybe different drink. But everybody bonds over food and different things. So it's really kind of fun. And that was one big thing. We traveled a lot. We always had cooking classes. Ah, that was a great way to get into learning just local food and local currency cultures. And why this ingredient versus that? And so it's kind of interesting. And like, yeah, what's important? What do they value? Why do they use what they use? And? Yeah, that's really cool. I love that insert. So you are a podcaster, amongst other things, I know you do a lot of different things. But tell us about your podcast, because it's really cool. You're very kind. Thank you. So I created a company called last night's game I brothers, also my co founder. And I'll give you a quick synopsis of it. But it was born out of the idea. I used to work in major baseball, I worked for the Arizona tax. And I had all these girlfriends who knew nothing about the world of sports. And we were in our early 20s. And I thought how do you go to work in a male dominated industry of manufacturing, or law or whatever that might be? And not have even just a baseline of what's happening? You'd have no idea. It's some big, maybe the Olympics, they might know. But I mean, it's one of those where they don't have and if there's a scoop, the Superbowl or whatever that might be. So how do you go in the office and not have just that baseline? And so I called my brother who was in high school at the time, in turn. So I was making 525 an hour. And, you know, okay, we need to figure out how we teach our friends about sort of the interesting side of sports, the not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. The interesting things about sports, why? Kind of like cooking, like, Why do you have this ingredient versus this ingredient? And, and so he was like, that's a really great idea. And me, but I'm in high school and you work 80 hours a week. So no. And so that was 14 years before we started last night's game. And when we were moving back from Singapore, I realized that no one was hiring because it was Thanksgiving in the US, and no one really hires between Thanksgiving and New Years. And so we I sort of said, Okay, well, I have about a month and a half to sort of let's give this a shot. And so we started that, and it was ugly. In the beginning. You know, we were it was not a pretty product by any stretch of the imagination. And so we rolled that out. And about, probably four years after we rolled out our email, I'll try weekly email publication and our website, we rolled out a podcast and the way we do our email publication, as well as our podcast is we believe in short and sweet. Emails are about a three minute read, you can click for more information if you want it, but just briefly, the headlines if you'd like. And then the podcast is about five minutes. And we cover sort of what's happening in the world of sports at this time. Typically, it's around that something like a five things to know about. We just did five things about the Masters was just last week, I want to talk about major league baseball season. And we'll do stuff about Earth Day, actually, this week on the podcast. And so we we sort of tried to cover things that are interesting that you might be able to start a conversation with someone who was a sports person. And well, the way I always see sports, and I use it myself this way is it's a great foray into conversation. But it also has this great plethora of roads out of the sports conversation, you can talk about food, you can talk about travel, maybe you want to tweak and fashion, celebrity gossip, I mean, you can really weave it all in together. And so that's how we kind of we talk about sports, and that's how we cover them. And because no one no one's interested in, you know, the stats, and this and that they really want to know the stories. And that's how we all talk, right? We talk about the stories of our travels or whatever that might be. So our kids, whatever that might be. So that's kind of how we cover sports. Something makes it interesting, huh? No, I love that because you're right, it can be incredibly intimidating because it isn't, it's a man's world. It you know, we're trying to make it better. And over here in Australia, we have the women's football, the AFL football league, and we have women's soccer and we have women's cricket. But, you know, we're always seen as like the poor cousin of the men's game, which is unfortunate. So in that it can feel very daunting to try and converse. Enter a sports world because you feel like you're going to be judged because you're right to start with unless you know what you're talking about. So your episodes they're short, sweet to the point how often do you bring out your episodes? Where every week? Yeah, every once in a while we'll roll out a bonus episode on something. But yes, every week so it's been it's been fun. It's just in my whole theory is or email publication. It is Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. And the podcast is once a week because I feel like if you're truly not in the ESPN Sports World, then you are. You're trying to digest what you read. And I think sometimes there's so much information coming out of you. So if you can have a day or two to digest what you read in your email, or a day or two or week to listen to that podcast, even though it's short, it gives you a chance to process and then execute it in your conversations. That's it, isn't it? You can put it put into practice test it out. Exactly. That's exactly give it a whirl Yeah. I want to ask you, what was it like being a woman working in that bus baseball environment. It was interesting. Now there my now I worked in the Community Relations Department in the foundation. So we were female, heavy in that department. But it was definitely different. It was definitely interesting, because it truly is a man's world. And you kind of have to get in there. And I probably blame them for my mouth, spews four letter words, and some of those other things. But it's it's definitely, it's an adjustment. And it's it's really interesting because you are in it even more. So in a man's world, you're in a world of men, where a lot of them were always told how great they were always built up. Because there are these athletes, there are these celebrities, if you will. And I will tell you 99.9% of them are fantastic. Their dads, their brothers, their husbands, they're great men. And so that is I mean, I don't want to give anybody a bad, a bad reputation at all. But it was definitely one of those things that you had to be mindful as a woman of what you were doing, where you were, who you were with. And so that's kind of just one of those things that you really do have to, you know, and stand your own ground when it came to things where they maybe things maybe got uncomfortable. There were comments you made. I got really good at just sort of rushing off and giving a hard time and going alright, well move along here type of thing. So it's kind of it's funny how you just, it's a life skill, though. You know, when I met my husband, my father in law has that personality where he always tries to make comments or funny things. He always tries to like get under your skin and not in like a mean way. But he wants to get your reaction. Yeah. And so I had that skill from the My Work in baseball that really turned into a benefit of giving my shit my short, witty comebacks to him where I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, well, let me get you on this one. Yeah. So yeah, it's definitely likes going out, I would just say it's one of those things that if as long as you, you respected yourself, you really were You were fine. You really had to push for what you wanted, though. And for who maybe career jobs because there were certain jobs that women just didn't do. And we have our first there's a woman who's Alyson Aiken, who's the AI. She's about a year and a half into her career as a baseball coach for Major League Baseball team. And she's the first woman to coach on the field. She's an assistant baseball coach for the San Francisco Giants. And so it's neat to see you know, baseball, we have an in football, we have quite an American football, we have quite a few female coaches, not head coaches. But they're factored in there in one way or another. So it's nice to see that these women are pushing through that boundary and saying, I don't care that this is a locker room situation. I'm a good coach, I'm really good at what I do. I'm the best you can hire. Forget that. I'm a woman. I'm the best that that's out there. And so it has been really neat and really motivating to see women step up into those roles. And and we talked a little bit about earlier about women in sports, but it's been really neat. So we have the the March Madness college basketball tournament that happens here in the US, the men's tournament in the women's tournament, and it's a whole bracket single elimination that drives the country crazy for a month, and just solid basketball. And this year, they've really built up the women's tournament. And the numbers have gone through the roof because people are watching because great basketball, great sport. They're very talented. And so that is really neat for us as a company that covers sports. You know, we cover the headlines. And so sometimes that is maybe mostly American football versus throwing in something, but it's mostly going to be men's sports. That's what people are talking about. But I really love turning on ESPN here and having the break the first story of Sports Center, a women's sports story. And that to me is really cool because where we've tried to we definitely I will say that definitely because we're women women lead that I steer the conversation toward women's sports where I can So it's really neat to not have to steer it because it's all of a sudden, it's already missing on its own. And that is a really cool thing to see even in. We've been around for about six years. And so it's been really nice to see how that has worked in covering sports in general. You know, with the beginning, it was, let's talk about so and so's wife or girlfriend. And now it's turned into Rockstar was out there taking, taking names, doing what she does best. And that's really cool, huh? Yeah, that would that would be a really interesting part of what you're doing is being able to watch that evolution. And let's hope it continues to go. I hope so, too. And I think that leaves a lot of faith and motivation for women's sports in other countries. I mean, I look we're we're heading to Australia for the Women's World Cup next year. Yeah. Right. And so we have a dear friend who lives in Perth, so we're gonna go visit him and go to some games with our kiddos. And I look forward to if it's the right season. What else can we fit in there? What else can we see? And, you know, learning for me, he also did a our friend Toby. So shout out to you, Toby. Did a whole write up for us on rugby. Yes, that's a whole thing that we're slowly with. We've kind of grown more lacrosse than rugby. But it's really a fun sport that people my brother played rugby in college. And so it's neat to learn so much about and it's fun to, for us to bring a different perspective on the world. And sports just joins, they join together. And so it's really neat to be able to share some of those insights into other sports that maybe are more much more popular in other countries. Absolutely, yeah. And then I think the closest we get to yours, your American football is obviously Super Bowl. That is like they put it on Morning, probably like 10 o'clock in the morning. And of course everyone wants to see who's like the halftime show is like the biggest thing in the world. But that in itself, you know, connects people even though a lot of us don't get what's happening, but they were involved in the spectacle, you know, they they you get caught up in the whole atmosphere of it and you can sort of, you know, relate to some aspect of it to allow you to join in and and have fun with it, I guess even if it is just the halftime show. Right? That's I think that's why Super Bowl is just our favorite because it does take into account the game itself and that's interesting because you can tell stories about the players but there's so much that happens around the Superbowl and that's, you know, once again, going back to food and I think I'm gonna screw up the numbers. I think it's like 6 billion chicken wings are eaten in the US on Super Bowl Sunday. It's obscene. And it's just so it's so neat to look at the commercials and all the other things that we see in the last Super Bowl was in LA as you have this huge celebrity presence and that's just a really like that is a perfect storm for someone like last night's game because we love the non sporting side of that and that really get does give everyone something to talk about. Yeah, that's it's like, yeah, he cares about the game but what was what a singer seeing and what were they aware about the game? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your family. You mentioned the kids, you're gonna bring them out to Australia to come to the to the soccer we call soccer Night Football. What do you call over there? Do you call it soccer or football? We call it soccer. Ecosa. Yeah, we call it soccer. And then sometimes we call it football. Depending if the if the Europeans are around it gets cold. Let's take a fusing because we've got AFL out like Australian rules football. And then we've also got Rugby League, and we've got rugby union. So there's like four different footballs. So the black and white one, that's the one we're going with. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So I have a little munchkin and he is three and a half. I affectionately refer to him as the tiny human. And, you know, he's just he's been trying to break in here for the past few minutes. And he's a he's a great little dude. And so we'll bring him on his first big trip to Australia and I think we're taking him to Singapore to figured why we're in Perth. You might as well take the five hour flight north. Oh, yeah, go check out go back to Singapore because we haven't been back since. Since we moved in 2015. So I'm really looking forward to that and it can be neat. I love I love showing him. Women who could do great things in sports and I have this big this big thought process. sense of women really need to be able to teach their children or coach their kids sports teams. And because I think that's important for them to see leadership in all facets, you know, they see they see us lead in the home, probably work or whatever else we might do. But that's one spot where you could also lead and I mean, I'm not going to coach high school football, because I know nothing about what football strategy. But you know, it's, it's really interesting, too. We're on where he's playing in his first soccer team share, and he's three and a half. And, I mean, he's mostly about digging holes in the dirt, and crying on the sideline and snacks, which is fine. All fine. We're there we try. Well, we tried to get him to go into the game. But um, you know, it's like that. So next year, I'm going to put my hand up and say, How can I? How can I help because I think it's important for them to see that leadership and, and not just the moms coaching the girls teams, but the moms coaching the boys teams. And so I think that's just, you know, it's one more step of leadership where we continue to show our children how we can lead. And when they're that little, it's, it's the time commitment is much different than obviously when they're much, much older. But I just I feel like that's just another way to, can you just show up and continue to show we're just as worthy as anybody else to lead a team, and to continue to motivate a group. So I don't know. I don't know, I can't motivate my own child to get on the field. So I'm not sure how that works for everybody else. But I can relate to that story about your son is my little fella. He's now 14. He here, like Australia is a big sporting country like clear sport culture, especially in a country town. Yeah, you know, winter is footy and netball, and summer is tennis, and cricket. Like that's it. And for a child, that's not a massive leap, interested in sport that's really challenging. And we learned pretty early on that Alex wasn't going to be a traditional sports player. We tried to get him to play soccer. And I remember he just used to run around, there was a little boy, he just used to run around with him. And they'd just be off down the end of the page, doing whatever else is concentrating really hard and take it really seriously and then just like, rolling around. Well, like, Okay, this is our Sunday morning. So yeah. So what does he do? What did he what kind of activities did he get into, he ended up he played baseball for a while, actually. Okay. And he really enjoyed that, because we worked out that he liked things that changed often. And okay, everybody got a turn, because the thing with soccer, it's unless you're very good, you're not going to get near that ball. So I think he worked out pretty quick that he wasn't at the level that perhaps some other kids were and then he was getting left out. So that led to the messing around sort of thing. But, you know, baseball is awesome, everyone lines up, everyone gets a bat, it changes quick, as often they'll get out, you know, three, three year out, and off, they go. And then you run out into the field for a while and you mess around out there for a bit and they become daisies. And so that was was perfect for him. He did that for I think probably three seasons. And now he's he's doing some music and some other things. But yeah, it was really except for you with creativity. Oh, it was just really good. My other son's gonna be completely different. It's like, we're trying to actually just wait till he gets a bit older because he will do anything. So we're sort of don't want to start just driving him around to everything. Be careful what you wish for. Yes. Yeah, he's gonna I think he will take that traditional route. But yeah, I don't know. It's an as a country town in Australia, baseball hasn't been a massive thing. You know, certainly they have the teams in, in the cities. But, you know, games like that are awesome. And I had no exposure to baseball growing up. So that was a real learning curve, for me working out how the game actually flowed. And was that was that? I don't know, the foul balls used to get me all the time. Like, why are they trying to catch it? And so they were found like, ah, you know, it's it's a learn and and that's I think that's the most interesting thing about sports is you can learning something new and like, it's like cricket. I knew nothing about cricket minus, you have the bowler and a couple of different things. And there's tiebreaks that I mean, I'm here for yes, we have. I mean, I'm here for that. It's just so funny. It's like wait, because Matt, you go to a sporting event that can last for five days, but And so but it's so neat to to continue to evolve and learn and when you can find a team or someone to get on board with so when we moved to Singapore, they have an F Formula One race there. We'd never watched Formula One. I'm a daughter of a mechanic and car guy and so I would why NASCAR and we watch all the race car stuff. Yeah, but I've never watched Formula One. And we thought, Well, my husband thought, well, we need to kind of learn this because it's happening like right in front of our house. And so it was so fun. Because once you get into it, and you start paying attention, you start learning all the little quirks, you start learning all the little things and the different characters, right, have different athletes. And so it's I wish that some of those sports were more readily available for us to see in the US. And because I do think there's just such a cool opportunity to learn and to dive in. And if you ever need a one on one on any sports, just holler because I have it. So we have a we have a bunch of them on our website, because it is it's sports, gambling, sports, betting and those kinds of things that make the game more fun or might get you involved somehow. And so it's how you make it. Once again, going back to how do you make it relatable? Yeah. interested? Just a little bit. Yep. Now I love that. Two things are just thought of when we're talking about that. I love Formula One. And we had our Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne, just last weekend, which was just so great. That I've had a friend I worked with who was watching drive to survive on Netflix, the show about the whole thing, which apparently isn't in Perth isn't perfectly true. Apparently, there's some drivers who have said that they, you know, change the plot slightly. We I mean, it's going to be interesting for television, I can understand that. Right, exactly. But since she was watching that, now, she's really interested in watching them in real life. So that is really cool. I've heard from quite a few people, actually. Yeah, and you're right, like the characters like it's literally like you have the goodie in the battery. And it can be set up any way you like to take it. But this is pretty exciting. I like I'm liking where this is going. But also what you said about over the years, like I'm a big course racing fan. And a lot of the races you'll go to around here they have a have the fashions on the field where you can get dressed up and win prizes and stuff. And I, a lot of people have come to the races with me because they want to dress up. And then when they get there, then I try and explain to them how to put a bed on or you know how to follow this particular trainer or like pick them out by the colors or, you know, you go down to the stalls and see the horses and but that's the thing that what that's what brings them in, and then they can, you know, get involved in whatever way they want. That's exactly it. Yeah, it's that little hook, just like your son. And he, once he realized that you need something that changed a little more rapidly. That got him involved. And so that's once you get that little hook, then you start to develop all that around it. And it is really neat. And it's neat to see how they've they've started. I mean, now that you have all these different TV streaming platforms that they're they're taking these stories like drive to survive and different things that they're making them interesting, where you're getting a little bit more of the behind the scenes and the human interest story of a sport versus just the stuff you see on the actual game. Yeah. And I think that's as a woman, I think it's you need to make connections with people. I think like that's what I mean. That's what certainly draws me to Formula One. Like I love hearing the drivers what they're thinking and they do have a lot of access to people these days, like people are very generous with their time. And I love watching them talk about Formula One again, but before a race didn't have me they do have the Sky News in the sky in the UK have the the rights for and they do this pit, the pit lane walk and they will walk through the actual crowd of all the drivers are actually on the grid, they're actually ready to drive. And then we'll walk through and chat to like maybe the race director or the chief engineer, whatever, and people are just, they'll just chat for like two or three seconds and off they go. And the access to people is incredible these days, which is amazing. And then like you get to know the race directors like people love toto like they people have their favorite people that they go for because they've made a connection with a person. So they go for that chain, you know. So I think that's a massive part and that's the thing that I think for so long, having been in charge and I'm putting that in inverted commas air quotes of sport only gave it was only sort of interesting from one perspective, it was interesting from what was on the field or what was on the track or whatever. But you get women involved in you get the behind the scenes and you find out that Christian Horner is married to one of the Spice Girls you know, you find out all this stuff that you wouldn't have men because men don't care about but as women we're like interested in people. So we bring so much to the sporting world. That's a really and I think that is a truly that that gives you a buy in if you will to a team or a driver because the more you I mean that's really think about it when you go to a sporting event. As a kid if you get a t shirt or you catch a ball or you get an autograph or whatever you have any sort of interaction with that team besides just showing up and eating up you know pretzel or some popcorn, it continues to get that buy in right now you have an affinity, you feel like you have an affiliation to that team. And so the more that we can buy into really learning to love a team and whoever that might be, whether it's an athlete or the story behind a team, I think it's so important. I mean, it truly is, it goes into that whole branding perspective, right of the more you can tell your story, and direct the conversation you want it to be, the more you're going to get people to buy in and get excited about it. So I think it's, I think it's awesome. And you're seeing a little bit of that here. There's still some sports that are US sports are a bit resistant to that. But you're for the most part, you're seeing a lot of them who are progressive, saying, all right, sure. Let's put a microphone on the guy and you know, in the outfield, or whatever, our preseason covered a preseason training on HBO. And so it's been it's it's neat to see. And, you know, I always talk about sports and the way I kind of rationalized because we first started last night's game, people were like, oh, it's sports for dummies and like, Well, no, because nobody's a dummy. Everyone's smart at their own thing. And so I think to me, I look at that and say, Okay, this is just another tool in your tool belt, you know, we watch the news to have information about what's going on in the world. And we whatever we're into, we might study or craft or follow people on Instagram and learn different things. And this is just one more tool in our tool belt to be successful. And I think that, to me, that's walking into a conversation being able to pull from a couple of different hats that I might have, and say, Okay, I'm talking to this guy here from Texas, I bet I could talk to him about, I don't want to talk to him about politics, because that's just messy. But you know, I could probably talk to about football, because it's football season, whatever that might be. And so it's just having that extra armor, to be able to kind of conversation, that extra tool to be able to shift a conversation into what is comfortable for you, allows you to create that someone, and hopefully a lasting relationship. Hmm, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Not? I love it. I think it's awesome. And you're right. It's not saying it for Dummies, you're not? You're not like teaching people the rules of something like you're actually you're like you said, you're relating it to, to an aspect of real life, I suppose. And so then it allows you to bring it into life without, you know, you're not memorizing stats or that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah, it's a really, what's the word? I can't think of what the word I was thinking of. But anyway, that word, this is like that. Your son is three and a half. So how do you find the time to do all this stuff? How does it work? Well, it definitely helped. So I went back to school to get my, my MBA when he was one and a half. And that happened to be about three months before everything locked down for COVID. So that was a whole perspective shift. I already knew my life was going to be busy. And busier, if you will. And so it's kind of funny how, you know, the reason I did that is I love to continue to learn, I love to continue to evolve. And I was talking to a friend who had earned her master's. And she's like, do it now. Because when they're seven or eight, you're missing birthday parties, you're missing baseball games, and they know you're gone at one and a half, they don't know you're gone. And so that was a huge, I think it took me as if people know, when you become a parent, whatever you did before, I don't know, you know, you're like you could get that everything done in two and half the time because you're just you have to consolidate your time and your work effort. And so I would say that I've just learned to work at this little more of an elevated perspective and an elevated pace. And so, you know, it's it's also for me, it's trying to figure out how to streamline things. That's a big piece of what we do because it's my brother and I and he works halftime. He's sort of my sports. He's my information cultivator. He's the one bringing in the information. Given that to me, I write it we handle all the writing I do all the editing for the podcast, social all the things. For me, it's I feel like that sorry, this is a very roundabout way to answer your question. No, no, go for it. But it It's streamlining work. And that is truly streamlining it to make sure I can get done. When I get done in my, my timeframe I've given myself, but also giving myself a little bit of a break. And that's something I didn't do during school that I've had to reteach myself is, you know, I get up early I work usually before he wakes up, I get everybody out the door that I work in, during the day, and then I pick him up from school about five o'clock. And somewhere in there, I try to get in a workout just to keep my sanity. And then we do dinner. And some days I go back to work after bedtime. And some days I don't. And that's one thing, like I said, I had to kind of retrain my brain because after, during school, after bedtime, I would get to my computer and do schoolwork, probably till midnight, one o'clock, and then get back up again at five o'clock and go all over again. And so I actually found that I'm more productive. When I give myself a break at night, I give myself time to decompress, and start over in the morning, I feel so much more mentally refreshed, I sleep better because I'm not closing my laptop at 1030 and trying to go to bed at 1045. And so it's it's it's a tough lesson to learn. But I've just learned to kind of reprioritize things and I use a project management software called Asana. And that's how I keep track of everything because it allows me to prioritize, but also see that full list that I can prioritize move things around as we need to. And so that is, to me is really important. And I'm trying to make my family a priority to and myself a priority because I believe that, you know, you truly need to put at the airplane you need put your oxygen mask on first, because if you can't breathe, nobody else is going to be able to do that. So I really do try to factor in those little things that might be a 30 minute workout. And sometimes that's in the morning, sometimes it's in lunch over the lunch hour, sometimes it's, you know what I've got, I'm going to pick them up from school sweaty, because I've just jumped I it is what it is, that keeps my sanity. And so I'm working from home too, that's any way you can get a break to just take a 10 minute walk outside around the neighborhood and come back. And especially on those big writing days where I'm trying to create a lot of content, that break is just huge. And so it's really funny to say I do less to do more. But I've kind of found attempted to find this happy medium of continuing to fuel myself and allow myself to grow, while also busting my butt while I am in front of my computer. That's that's really valuable. I think because a lot of I think there's been this culture, for a while of just going hard getting it done, you know, this hustle, I'm putting that in air quotes again, you know, you've just got to keep going and keep going and get it all done. And then at the expense of what you know, your relationships, your health, you know, everything falls apart. So it's awesome to hear that you've got that, that sort of balance that works for you. Because I'm just reminded of this, you know, when you sit, you're scrolling Instagram, and you see things come up and you just pause for a moment, then you keep going. There was there was one the other day about, we've started to see rest as well, we have been seeing rest as a reward, rather than a thing that's actually required to, to keep us sane, to keep us healthy to increase productivity. So I feel like there's, there's another little shift going on, where people are saying, hang on a minute, this isn't sustainable. We can't, we can't keep doing this. Right. And when when we're working from home, there's no separation between work and home at that point. So you might change rooms, but you're still in the same scenario. And so, you know, for for fitting for all of us it you've got to find that, that that space to just step away. And that's kind of what I've started doing at work too though, when when I first started working from home full time, you know, I'd get up and do the dishes or I'd throw it a little laundry or something like that. Yeah, now I've just said no laundry happens on Saturday. You need something watch beforehand, throw it in like it can sit there or you watch it yourself. But it's one of those where I'm not distracting myself with other tasks. Yeah, try not to distract myself with that it's focusing on when I'm at work I try to just do it like I'm at an office like I'm at work I'm working. Yeah, and so that way I'm not the dishes get done at the end of the day or when I make lunch or whatever that might be so yes, trying to define those little compartmentalize the best we can which I know that's really not our best skill as women. Yeah, but I think it's really really good what you're saying about like setting those boundaries even though we are at home and doesn't mean we have to be in like mum mode and you know, set the set the washing machine Shane and quickly go hang it out. Because it's a nice day, you know? Right. Like, yeah, you're right, keeping that the cup compartmental I can't say that we get to compartmentalize one, it's hard. I mean, you're creative as well. I mean, it's when you're in a creative space, you really do have to focus. Because if you start to think, oh, the dishes are dirty, oh, I just heard the dishwasher go off, I'll go empty that you can't you really, I mean, I work in house by myself, but I still put my headphones in. Because it just blocks out all that ancillary noise and allows me to focus because I can't write if I'm hearing the garbage truck drive by and all those things. And so it's when sometimes you just when you're in that creative headspace, you need to just just check the world out the best way you can. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's cool. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. One of the lovely topics I love to talk about with all my moms is mom guilt. And I realized that it comes in all forms, or it may not come at all. And that's great. That's one of the great things about talking about it. So what's your thoughts on mommy guilt? Amy? I think it I think it is alive and well, at least in my house. And I have, I mean, it ranges from you just lose your patience with them. And you snap and you're like, Okay, that was probably not the best move by me. But also, you were being really horrible. And I can't take it anymore to the fact that sometimes you have to say, Hey, bud, I gotta finish this, this needs to be done for work. When I'm done, I'll come play with you, whatever that might be insert activity here. And it's, but it's alive. And well. And it's really interesting. So I do a lot of chats on my Instagram stories. And I talk a little about the mom guilt and how that is tough on days when it snows it's a snow day and you're stuck at home with your kid. And they've watched three movies by 2pm. And that's it is what it is. I mean, I think we're all fine. We've probably done that somewhere along in our lives. But that that mom guilt is alive and well. And I, I've had a couple of people say, Well, you're just imagining mom guilt, it doesn't need to exist. My kids watch TV today, too. And I didn't feel bad about it. Michael, that congratulations to you. I'm really that is fantastic that that's how you can run your household. And that's how you feel. That's, that's fine. This is how I feel. And you're right that it does, you don't do give me a dose of confidence to say that I need to be easier on myself, I appreciate that. But I think that's the interesting part of being a mom. And you know, my mom, my mom, I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she went since I was little till now because a lot of the, you know, from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with the mixer and the whole nine yards and like, this is how mom does them. This is how grandma doesn't. And they're both okay. Yeah. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of the things and I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much. us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and whatever that might be. Or, you know, we see people on Instagram who, you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take to the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like, how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do. And what we just have to let go. And like when I was in school, we take away a lot because it was like, Okay, well we have peanut butter and jelly, pancakes, eggs, or we can go down the street and get a salad and that's just, that's just where we live. We lived for two years because, you know, it was that was what we had time for. And that's just how sometimes that works. And we're all going to be okay for it. You know, I joke that I never ate a blueberry that was not in a muffin until I went to college. And I still do are not okay, I varies now it's fine. I'm a reasonably healthy human. You know, it's it's one of those where we all have to just give ourselves a little bit of a break. And I don't know, what is What's your perspective on mom guilt? Because I think you said everyone's take is different. I hate it, I wish it would never existed. Because I think that I feel like I get a bit, I start to get a bit passionate about things. I'll try and curtail myself, but I feel like it's an excuse. For mums to be bashed on, basically, I feel like, I mean, I feel like it has its place in some regards. Like, it's almost like a little voice that might help you decide what's important to you, or how you're tracking in that time, like, like, if, if I don't call it the devil on your shoulder, like the little voice in your ear that might say, now, you know, you've been out four times this week, you probably should be home tonight. But then the other side says, well, actually, you've got a show on at the moment. So you rehearsing for it. So this is important to you. So you go, okay, that's fine. But then another time, the voice might go, Well, actually, you haven't put your child to bed this week, because you've been out going to the movies or catching up with friends. And then you go, Oh, actually, that's true. Maybe I should slow down a bit, you know. So situations or whatever, every, everyone's different in different things, and which is awesome. But I feel like it's an excuse for mums to get a bad deal or the roar end of the deal. It's like, you are allowed to do things for yourself. And it's very important that you do things for yourself. And it's up to you and your family to work out. Where that line is, I suppose of what's manageable for you guys, I think and that you write when you look at social media, I feel like it's, it's it's an opportunity to compare, and to feel judged, and to beat in to judge others. Because I feel like as moms, we're really, we're really bad at judging, like we judge each other. It's I'm not talking about, you know, just people that don't have children, judge us we judge each other. So that'd be good if we stopped doing that. But yeah, we compare ourselves a lot. And we've got to remember that the lives that we see on Instagram are generally a very curated version of that person's life. Absolutely. So we everyone has a different, you know, level of support lives in a different part of the world has a different cultural background, everyone has different values of what's important to them and different styles of mothering. So no, two of us are exactly the same. So we can't compare ourselves, you know? No, to an excellent perspective, really, truly. Yeah, I think it just does more more harm than good. It really does. And it makes no one feel any better. Right? I just I it always sticks in my mind when, when Roy was little he was I really didn't take any time to stop working. But I mean, I had a C section at 7pm, because I was in labor for 24 hours in a C section at 7pm. My mom stayed with me that night, because my husband had to be at a meeting with customers the next morning. And so you know, what I saw, we had a woman come in and help us help me at night for like three nights a week, just so I could sleep. Because he did it, he did not sleep at all, he was a crazy little human. But I had one of my friends from from back in Phoenix, say to me, must be really nice to have all this help. And I said, Well, you know, in all fairness, I don't have any family help. And my husband's gone 50 to 60% of the time. So I need a break. I can't I can't do it all. And so like, I appreciate you dropping that judgment on me. But I don't have any lot of a ton of support. So I have to pay for my support. So that's just, that's what I'm, that's the situation I'm in. And I would love to have a husband who is home all the time to also help and have my mom around the corner. But that just wasn't feasible. And so you're right, though, as we step back and look at what everyone does, and how we handle all the things we need to appreciate and understand that there are a lot of other pieces that we don't, that we don't see. And you know, I I say I joke that it might your children's school might be the same way we're not allowed to have. We're no longer allowed to have homemade treats brought in. So those are things we get homemade treats. Yeah. So they ought to be individually packaged and from from an external source. Yep, that is the best thing that's ever happened to me in my life. Because I'd be making the sad light blue frosting cookies. I mean, it's like the best thing that's ever happened to me because, you know, my mom talks all about how she's a working mom who had two kids in both in activities and my dad went to work at 530 in the morning and came home at seven o'clock. And she was doing homework and all the things and how it will be some sort of something and she had to make something. She was like okay, well, we're in my spare time. You know, she shows up my mom's A Fabulous Baker. But, you know, she shows up with some cookies or something and someone else shows up with his Barbie Kassala cake. She's like, well, here's here's my sad cookies, you know. And where she said it's just it, things have shifted so much. And there's certain things that have, she also didn't have Amazon were food grocery delivery. That might be the only reason I survived with a newborn was Amazon delivery because I would never remember to order diapers till 2am When you're sitting in the chair and going, oh, please just go to sleep and crap or out of diapers has changed for the better. And so we're just there, there are definitely things that make it a little bit better. So there's that when you said before you compared like that your son can go with your mom and do some baking. I feel like it's something we forget as mums, it's really important that when we're not with our children, if he's with your mum, that's a really important thing for him to be doing to, you know, we can't give them everything. And this might even sound like I'm trying to justify having other people look after my children. But it's, it's really important for them to create relationships that don't involve us. Absolutely. So good for for that other person to to have that relationship with your child. It is and it's hard, it's really hard to sometimes, and I don't know about your boys, but mine is like would be glued to my hip all day, every day. If he could be he just like always wants to be with mom, which I, I appreciate it. And one day, he's going to be 15 and want nothing to do with me, I'm going to go fishing with dad or something. But I do think I think about the times that I value where I spent time with my my grandparents and how much fun I had watching The Golden Girls and putting on a face mask with my grandma who took her dentures out in the teeth. And we sat at a great old time. And that was, I think that is so important. And I think that gives them a different perspective to you know, it's, it gives them something to come back and talk about because there are going to be things that grandmas and grandpas say or have a different perspective on or thinking in a different way. And it's a good thing to talk about, like what we what we do as a family versus all the things but it's true everyone gives everyone brings a different value to their life. And just like we can't, we can't do it all. As individuals, we can't bring all the things to them. And so for them to go learn that and just and I think I had to step back at one point. And I really hated you know, my, my mother and I was so sweet. She takes my son now to school almost every morning. And I hated feeling like I was saying, Could you do want to take him to school because like it was a favor to me and I but I had to step back and say, This is awesome for her. She's loving, she gets him by himself for 20 minutes in the car in the morning. And they talk about things from classical music to trees and things that I would probably not talk about in the car with him. And she loves it, it helps me. And so I was once again stepping way back from the mom guilt, she's so happy, she can help because she knows what it's like, she can take that piece and that's something she can do and do well. And it's just it's it is a you have to step back sometimes and say I got a I gotta give you give you the distance, right. And I had a girlfriend when when Ray was born, he said to me, if you do your job, right, at 18 years old, your child will move out of your house and never move back in. And you have to make decisions sometimes based on knowing that that is a future, a future forward thinking forward thinking where you might have to say, You know what, I'm kind of uncomfortable letting you go play in the backyard by yourself. But you know what, just go do it and say where I can hear you. But those little pieces of freedom then give them that onus to continue to grow. And I say this as a person with a three and a half year old. So people will 25 year olds don't judge me because I'm I'm you know, I have a three and a half year old and I'm just we're all doing the best we can so send pointers if your kids are still alive at 25 Because I don't know how I'm gonna make it that far. But um, you know, so it's, it's it is going back to that, letting other people teach them things and some of those things might be not what you want them to learn, right? I mean, you know, it's not ideal that, you know, Grandpa takes him for ice cream and then exam candy at the grocery store and drops them back off at home. You're like, well, thanks a lot, but yeah, it's part of it's part of the things that they do and it's part of that sort of thing that they're gonna have build a memory and maybe learn why you shouldn't eat candy and ice cream on an empty stomach and that's you don't feel so good later either. So yeah, there's always a lesson in there somewhere. There's always a lesson in there somewhere in our mothers, we're always right. That's, yeah. I love that. I've got so many oh my gosh, my dad with my children. It's like he's, I don't recognize him sometimes, because he's such a different grandparent to what he was, as a father, just so much more relaxed and easygoing, and the stuff that would have, you know, got him all riled up when we were kids is like, Ah, whatever. Like, I remember one day, my sister and I were sitting there watching going, Who is this man? Like? It's so love. It's fantastic. Yeah, it's, it's, I just want when my parents fencing like my grandchildren, keep me young and keep me alive and keep me going. Because it is, it's that whole new lease on life, that is this little ball of energy or multiple balls of energy, if you have extra more than one kiddo. And it's just so neat to see them. I mean, my mother wears wears him out. She's in she's in her mid 60s And he's he's zonked out at three and a half. And she's like, Hold on, I'm gonna keep going, let me go make dinner and we're gonna make cookies. And he's like, Oh, love that. It's super, it's awesome. I think it's so great. One of the things I really love talking to moms bear is the concept of their own identity, and how that might have been challenged and changed when you actually had a child? Did you sort of go through some shifts in pace or yourself? That's a great, that's a great question. And I think it's something that people don't talk enough about. Because I do feel like, there is this weird, there is this weird shift. And I, it's funny, because when I was when I first started telling some people I knew in a leadership program I was in there, I was pregnant. One of the guys said to me, how are you going to raise two babies at once being a business and your child? And I was like, Well, I really haven't thought about it. But to be all, in all fairness, I'll figure it out. That's what I've done with everything else in my life. I'll figure it out. And then you start to watch, as you know, people kind of talk to you about how's the baby going to impact your career. And finally, I just got tired of it. And it was just I just, I started doing my smart asset answers of what why don't you ask my husband, I was going to impact his career. Like, why are you asking me? And yes, I understand that I am the primary parent and that I am the one who does all the things. We that's just how most women handle life, right? But I was like, please stop that. That's not fair. To me. It's not fair to my child. And, and it is, it's hard. It's hard to figure out kind of where you fit in there. Because I'm not a, I'm not a mom who's probably going to wear the shirt with my kids face on it. You know, and that's just, that's just not me. There's a mom for every type of person. And I appreciate and respect all of those that do. And I really do, because I think we all own it, how we own it. And for me, it was really important to continue to work and continue to push and actually meeting with a friend last week. And she's in an investment group. And we were I was talking to her and she said, It's just she said, I'm a better mother, when I drop my child off to school when I go to work. And I said me too, that's just how I operate. And that's how I was raised, though I was I don't know anything really different. And but I said, you remember that one that first time when you got out and you went, you dropped your kid off with lifting with dad or babysit or whatever, that grandparent when they were little. And you went out and you went to a meeting or something and you got in the car and you were like, Yes, I still have it. I can still do this. She was like I do remember that moment. Yeah. So that to me was that moment of like, okay, I don't have to completely get rid of one to be the other. And you can be all the things. And what I've tried to to just step back and look at is having a child has made me a better worker. It's made me a better boss. It's made me a better investor, a better board member, all these things, because I've been able to have sympathy to a certain perspective. And I think COVID has also taught us all that in general. But it allows me to put a perspective and his spin on things that really, it puts things as we kind of talked about earlier. It puts everything in perspective. And there's something that says, you know, why is that? Why are we even arguing about this? This is silly. Let's go ahead and XYZ and so I really do feel like it's stepping back and being able to own what I'm good at, and be good at what I'm good at, and still attempt to be a good mom. And but not let any of that define me. I think it comp they all complement each other. Yeah, but I try not to let any of those pieces define me. And I think I learned that really early in my career. I had some pretty rough female bosses for a while including one who fired me and then fired the subsequent two other women she hired after me to fill my position. And I just realized that that was a huge identity loss for me because I was my job. And I think at that point, I realized that I can't ever truly make myself synonymous with anything, I want to try to be able to always be my own person. And I want to be a me but I also am happy to be worries mom, and Reagan's wife, and last night's game, co founder and sister to Scott, my last night's game, co founder and a daughter, and all those things. Because all of us have all of those facets. It's just how you own it. And it works for me, it might not work for somebody else. And I think that continues to go back to the point where we continue to be sympathetic to each other. And understand that it truly takes all of us to make the mom World Go down, go around, and the more we can support each other, the better off we can be and, and also make I don't know, to me, it's nice to hear someone say, Man, I lost I, I I lost it on my kids this morning. That drop off was rough. You're like mine to okay, I'm not the only one who's crazy. Okay, thank you. Yeah. And I think there's some sort of community and that of saying, Okay, it's hard for you to okay, I appreciate that. Because that means I'm not crazy. And I think is that continue stepping back and looking at the real life situations versus the Instagram perfect stuff. Because that is right, that's, we're really a community of like minded, same people. When it comes to motherhood, we all look a little different and one, one faster another. But ultimately, we're all still trying to do the same thing. And we're all probably feeling guilty about something similar. And we're probably getting driven crazy about something similar. And so and we all just want our kids to eat their fruit, vegetables, and grow up to be good humans, you know, like that. Get a decent job be a good human. Yep, some vegetables and some fruits. So you can you know, live a long life. I mean, you love it. I don't know, how about you like, what's your what's your take on that? I'm, from your perspective. The thing about being honest with each other is something that I find really intriguing because I'm the sort of person that I tell things how it is I'm extremely honest. You know, I've been really opening sharing different parts of my life. I've had experience with mental health issues. And I've talked about that openly a lot. And I think it's important to talk about stuff that I remember when I went to my first we have this thing over here called mothers group, when you have a baby, they put you in a group of all the people that had babies at the same time. And so you don't know these people, they're just random people. The only thing in common is that your babies were born, you know, within a day or two of each other. And I remember sitting with this bunch of women the first time and everyone had to go round and talk about their baby. And everyone seemed to be just perfect. Everything was going great for everybody. And I just thought what is going on here? Like, am I the only person whose baby wakes up after 45 minute naps? Am I the only person who's having trouble establishing breastfeeding? Right? I thought what the hell is going on here? So I did say a little bit of stuff. And when I said that, one of the other ladies sort of I could see her look at me like, Oh, thank god you said that. Because now I feel like I can say that, you know? And then the more we talked, it all came out. And I think people have this idea that you've got a nice set up your the way people see you is got to be a certain way and has to be right and you can't let any like crack show. I don't know. resets never bothered me. I think, you know, I've always thrived on like, really deep, honest relationships and really good honest talks. And that's why I love doing this too, because I get to talk to people in really good under the surface ways. Yeah. So it's like my sister at the moment like her daughter is a year almost exactly a year younger than my little fella who's six, nearly six and a half and we just compare drop off stories like you're just talking about like, Oh, I couldn't get them in the car this morning. And I told her to put her sucks And I'm like, yeah, no, I had that with the shoes, you know, and being honest with each other and not sitting there going, Oh, Everything went perfect for me and then making the other mom feel like a failure. You know, we got to know each other, support each other and have each other's back. Yeah. And I would also say on the flip side of that is to really celebrate each other. And that is something interesting. I have a group of girlfriends from my MBA class. And I should say that I traveled out of state every other week to Chicago, for my MBA, so I, I really like my husband was primary parent. And that was a whole shift for us. Luckily, it was COVID. And that doesn't sound right. Not luckily, it was because of COVID. He wasn't traveling. So he was a primary parents. So I really got a chance to actually embrace and make friends, sort of outside of my family, too, because I wasn't having to rush home to them as well. But I have a group of girlfriends that were on the same text message group. And to this day, that's the one where you go to if you have a big win, like, Hey, I got a promotion. And this group is so on board with, you know, we're I think women are so humble in the sense that we don't celebrate our own victories to someone else to celebrate others. And so but I love this group, because it's like, Hey, I got a promotion, oh, my god, you guys, I just landed this, or whatever that might be. And I love it. That group is very much you don't feel uncomfortable celebrating or telling your victories. And I think that's something you know, I really strive to do is seek out these things that my friends have done and, and celebrate them. And I'm a huge fan of snail mail. I love sending greeting cards, the more inappropriate the better. And so I have a whole entire box in my desk that's like, I don't know, probably 200 cards that when I find ones I like I buy them. Yeah, because I just I love that little act of recognition of who doesn't love to get mail. I mean, it goes back to like the day when you have a pen pal, right? Yeah. And so I just love that. And I love celebrating other people. Because everyone works really hard. I don't care if you're a mom, your dad, you don't have kids, you're a dog, Mom, I don't care. You everyone works their butts off. And so if we can celebrate even these little wins, whatever that might be, and you worked out five days in a row, you ate a carrot today. I don't whatever it sound like I'm gonna design some sort of weird Health Net, but I'm not. You finished a whole bottle of wine, let's celebrate. You know, I think there's just i just i There's life is so serious and so full. So being honest. And then then also owning your stuff that you are awesome. And it's great for you to be here to see this. And let's celebrate you and I encourage you if you haven't, there's the Today Show, which is like one of the morning TV programs here. On our one of our big networks here in the US. Two of the there's two morning anchors, they're both females. They're both just this last weekend inducted into the Hall of Fame for broadcasting. Oh, wow. And the one lady her name is Hoda copy. And she gave this speech and talked a lot about how really, everybody, these people, the celebrities that she's interviewed who are so astoundingly accomplished. Don't feel these women don't feel like they're worth it. She doesn't feel like she's worth it. And so let's talk about how we need to earn it because you're worth it. And she went through this whole format speech and it's it's quick. But it's so well done that I actually bookmarked it on my Instagram, because it's one of those things when you need a pep talk. That's that speech where you are worthy, you are worth it. And so celebrate you and that I mean really, that goes back into the mom guilt thing full circle of we have to just give ourselves a break sometimes and celebrate the little victories in our day, you know, what can add underwear on today? Some days that is harder than others. So let's just call that a when we have underwear on, we think we might have two shoes on, they may not match. They may not even be the right feet known to go out and like a rain boot and flip flops. And so, I mean, yeah, we just celebrate those victories that we have and the beauty we can find in our own little worlds of, you know, just stop and figure out what that might be. And, you know, sometimes that's a 15 minute time to 15 minutes to sit down with your kiddo and read a book. And that might be all you have that day. But it's still 15 minutes of book time and Qt so you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's so true. Over here in Australia, we have this. It's a terrible part of our culture. I feel like it is slightly getting better, but it's not really. It's the tall poppy syndrome about if anyone else is doing really good around you. You've got to cut them down and bring him back to the same level as everyone else. And that's been a massive part of Australian culture for a very long time. And I think that that's lends itself to the fact that people don't like to talk themselves out, because they don't want to be seen as being, you know, doing well and maybe being better at something than someone else, because people will pull them down and they'll say, Oh, yeah. What about this? Yeah, you know? Yeah. And I remember years ago, because I've been singing my whole life, and we have our towns only what? 30,000 people. So you're gonna get in the newspaper, at some point. If you live in Gambia, you're gonna get in there, at some point, hopefully, for something good. Yeah, not in like the court pages. But because I've been in singing for a long time, I've done a lot of public events and fundraisers and different community things. So I've been in the paper a lot. And early on. One of my singing teachers said to me, make sure you cut your cut your articles out, don't be vain in like, don't be scared to cut them out and keep them because she said, No one else is going to do that for you. And, you know, I thought, Oh, I feel a bit funny. You know, I Oh, look, this is me, this is me. But it's like, I'm so glad that I have them now, because I have them in this little folder. And every now and then if I'm looking through the cupboard to find something else, I'll see them like, Oh, look at me, and then I'll show the kids. And it's like, it's so nice to have that. So you worked hard to earn? Yeah, yeah. So let's see. Yeah, let me no one's gonna be, right. I mean, our parents can be really proud of us, if that's what the their verbage they use, but you've got to be proud of yourself. And that's something I think also comes with age. I think when I, when I hit 40, I all of a sudden just grew up here that I didn't really know I had, and just learn to be okay with stuff. And stop trying to fit in the mold of exactly what something should be, or should it be and, you know, sort of tried to just let some stuff go. And I mean, I was always envious of older like actresses, when you would hear them in interviews, say, Well, as I got older, I just learned not to give a crap. And I think that is like what a great place to be. And, and so you know, if someone's listening, and they're, they're younger, and feeling unsure, you've got this, you own it, because guess what you've what you're gonna have at 40 is what you're gonna have at 30 You're gonna be a little bit more a little bit wiser, but own it. You know, clip your clip your your write, clip your newspaper articles and save them because that's really cool. That's an awesome accomplishment to be able to do something so magnificent. And it may mean nothing to you, and may be nothing to you. But you know, you don't remember that sometimes you're low lights or someone's highlights like they really, yeah, it's always perspective. So celebrate you and put it off, blow it up and put it on the wall. If that's what you're into. Do it. Who cares? Yeah, that's what gets you out of bed. Do it? Yep. No, I definitely agree with that 40 year old thing. It's like the amount of women I've spoken to you that have said that same thing. It's it's a thing. You honestly, you just go not do not care. Do? You know? I don't know. You just time for this. I mean, we we looked at a school for the title human for starting, like pre K and kindergarten. And one of the schools is known to have sort of a bit more of a catty mom group and I was bullied in when I in all through middle school. And so I joke to my husband, like, I'm gonna need to go to therapy to send our child to that school because I'm not going to make it. Yeah. And it turned out that there were a lot of things that made that school not not work for us, but I just thought, why? I don't want anything to do with any of that. I really don't care if my husband I don't care if that's if you want to talk shit about us, then go for it. Have at it, but leave my kid alone. Yeah, and we'll be fine. But it's just it's one of those are like why? Yeah, let's this just seems like way too much work. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. So many times in my life. I've had this saying something's gone down. And I'm like, I'm not in high school anymore. Like this. I'm beyond this. This is not this is not worthy of my time. It's not something I want to spend my energy on. You guys go for it and do what you got to do. But I'm not doing your free toilet paper by house just like high school if that's what you want to do. That's fine. Whatever. Yeah, like Yeah, yeah, it's a funny thing. What I really tried to talk a lot about and where I've sort of started to try to own my own perspective, is to support young women coming up through their careers. Because, you know, I think I mentioned it earlier that I had some I had one or two great female bosses. But I really struggled with bosses and male bosses too. And so, you know, what, what I kind of tried to do myself is be a resource, and that is to the babysitter's who come and watch the Munchkin. You know, is it, one or two of them are getting married? They're like, can you look at my registry? Can I ask you this work? Question? How do I ask for a raise? I mean, whatever that might be, I just want to be that resource. Because I think far too often women are not really set up where we don't really do mentors like men do. And I think that's something that we as women who are further along in our career in our talents that we can do, we can provide some perspective. And I think that perspective might just be the same as this isn't high school, this isn't worth it type of thing to say, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because I think because the business world has been a man's world for so long, they've formalized this mentor stuff, and it's been something they do. And it's like, we've got to try and find ways to do it. Because it's so important. It is really important. And I think about me growing up, like, all I learned from my mum about my job was how to dress and how to answer the phone and how just, you know, that sort of stuff, not how to like, say, ask for a raise how to, you know, communicate with people in your workplace, it was all the how to type? How to Answer the phone, you know? So yeah, I think that is so so important. While I think the honor the honest side of things, and, you know, I think that it's giving reviews and giving honest feedback in areas where people really can work on things and, and grow and evolve. So all those things is continuing to give positive but constructive feedback, and being honest, and that's one thing that's really funny, we were kind of out of our friends, our friends here, we're sort of on the the older end and the first have children, whereas in other places, we were kind of at the tail end of it. And we've had friends who've had kids who say, can we go to dinner with the two of you, because I know you'll give us the honest feedback about parenting and pregnancy and all of that stuff. And like, sure, that's what we're here for. I'm not going to pretend that you know, pregnancy and newborns are all like puppies and babies and toilet paper commercial, like they're not all fluffy. It's not all perfect. And so here's some perspective, I want you to know that it's fantastic. But it's also tough. There's going to be tough times where, you know, my husband would say, Well, you know, took me a long time, a little while to get, like, really feel like I bonded with the baby, and all those things. But all that stuff is things I think are things that people don't talk about, once again, going back to your baby class. And it's all normal. And so maybe it won't happen to you. But if it does know that that's okay, and know that that's normal, and your hormone fluctuations, whatever that might be. So, you know, it's really truly pick up that next generation, but be honest to maybe not to, to a fault, but provide some honest feedback and constructive criticism of work if that's where that that relationship lies and, and truly being. Because I think that's going to set us all up for success when it comes down to it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good on you. So you can find last night's game at last night's game.com We are on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter as well as LinkedIn. And I run our Instagram account. So all the stories are the kind of behind the scenes of the life of another founder, a female founder. And so you'll see the tiny human running around probably with you know, his rear end hanging out on his scooter in the front yard. You start from there to a little bit of everything. So Instagram was definitely a really fun place for us to share a story. And let's say last night's game.com And then we're on our podcasts is sports curious. And we are on all major podcast platforms and we come out on that releases on Wednesdays and it's about a five minute podcast very rarely do we go over five minutes so I'm here to make sure that your life is short, sweet and out the door and you get on your way with all the other very important things you have going on in life. Oh love that. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been it's been really lovely chatting with you. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you. I look I look forward to making the visit your way here in the next year. Yeah, well, if you if you ever need boy yell out. Well, for sure. Absolutely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

ShanRong Janicijevic-tuo US violinist + music educator S2 Ep46 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Today I welcome ShanRong Janicijevic-tuo to the podcast, a violist and music educator based in New York City, USA and a mother of 1. Born in China, ShanRong started playing the violin at the age of 10, which was considered late to start. ShanRong grew up in a valley a long way from the city, so she didn't have access to teachers. Her mother trained to become a violin teacher so she could teach her. After just 4 years of lessons, ShanRong was accepted into her high school Conservatory talent programme, After school ShanRong travelled to Singapore to completed her undergraduate education at the Yong Siew Toh Conservatory of Music, where she was under the tutelage of Mr. Zuo Jun and Mr. Alexander Souptel, former Concert Master of Singapore Symphony Orchestra. ShanRong then travelled to Pittsburgh to do her Masters and 4 years later got into the Doctorate programme in New York City. ShanRong holds Master’s Degree and Artist Certificates in Violin performance and orchestra studies from the prestigious Carnegie Mellon School of Music as a full scholarship recipient, where she studied with Mr. Cyrus Forough, a pupil of legendary violinist David Oistrakh. ShanRong has more than 12 years experience working with students from different levels, ages, races and countries. Many of her college and pre-school students have accepted in major music schools and festivals in China and the United States. In academic teaching and researching, ShanRong was a teaching assistant in Western Music History and Rock Music History at Stony Brook University. ShanRong is a doctoral candidate in violin performance at Stony Brook University and recently appeared as soloist and chamber musician with Ms. Jennifer Frautschi, and Emerson quartet members at Stony Brook University Starry Nights Concert series, Arts of Violin and Chamber Music Festival. Today we chat about the unexpected injury that ShanRong has suffered since becoming a mother, role modelling the will to never give up and the appreciation she has for the support of those around her. You'll also hear chatter from her 8 month old and the rumble of the New York trains. Music from Dr Erica Ball US composer, pianist and music educator, and previous guest of the podcast ShanRong website / instagram Podcast website / instagram Mummys Wrist Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. On today's episode, I welcome Shan Rong gana ceviche Torre to the podcast, a violinist and music educator based in New York City and a mother of one. Born in China, SHAN Rong started playing the violin at the age of 10, which was considered late to start Shenron grew up in a valley long way from the city so she didn't have access to teachers. Her mother trained to become a violin teacher so that she could educate her. After just four years of lessons, Shenron was accepted into her high school conservatory talent program. After school Shan rung traveled to Singapore, to complete her undergraduate education at the young suto Conservatory of Music. Shenron then traveled to Pittsburgh to do her master's and four years later was accepted into the doctorate program in New York City. Shenron holds a master's degree and artist certificates in violin performance and orchestra studies from the prestigious Carnegie Mellon School of Music. Shenron also has more than 12 years experience working with students from different levels, ages, races and countries. Many of our college and preschool students have accepted in major music schools and festivals in China and the United States. In academic teaching and researching Shenron was a teaching assistant in western music history and rock music history at Stony Brook University. Today, we chat about the unexpected injury that shamrock has suffered since becoming a mother role modeling the wheel to never give up. And the appreciation she has for the support of those around her. You'll also hear chatter from her eight month old son and the rumble of the New York City trains. The music you hear throughout this episode was composed by a previous guest of mine, Dr. Erica ball from the United States. This episode contains discussion around anxiety. Is that lady talking to my mom? Welcome Shenron it's such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So you're in New York City. Tell me a little bit about life in New York City. I think it's one of those places that people always sort of want to visit and and aspire to visit. Just tell us what it's like to live there. New York City is very busy. The living past is really fast. And I don't know if it's because I get I'm getting older. And that I'm a mom. So I just felt like Monday to Friday just like a flying so fast. You just don't notice that. And then time is gone. Yeah, we just live here. Day by day and just very busy. Yeah. Yeah. You are is always very exciting. It's a lot of going on a lot of arts going on and a lot of things going on. I'm really happy that after, you know, we sort of going through this kind of pandemic thing locked down and are kind of dead in that moment. And then everything's getting back slowly. Which I'm happy. Yeah, but in general is very, very fast. Very busy city. Yeah, for sure. Very good. What brought you to New York City. Oh, I sort of traveled all over the place. Orange finally I was born in China. I went to Singapore for my undergraduate studies. So I was in Singapore for many years and To come to state is really the reason that I came here to study my master's degree, pursue my further education. So yeah, I went to Carnegie Mellon for my master's degrees. And also my artists deploy my training over there in Carnegie Mellon, and I moved to New York in 2015, just to come here to complete my doctoral degree. So let's share with our listeners what you do you play the violin, and incredibly well to you, because I've watched some of your videos that were linked to your website, just beautiful. Tell us about how you got started playing. Yeah, I actually started on this road when I was 10. It wasn't, it wasn't early, because most of my colleagues theory, or starters, like two and a half and why? Well, I lived in your Valley in China. And it's kind of far from CD. So I never actually get a chance to actually get to touch this instrument. But I always see people playing back then in team on TV. So I was holding a chopsticks. Like, I'm pretending I'm playing. And I even like I wasn't sure what I was doing. But I always very excited to see people playing, even to hear just hear the music. Yeah. And just by occasion, that my mom's friend's daughter actually got a chance to go to Sydney to learn this instrument. And then they brought the teacher to the valley. So I actually started a group lesson. And I was one of those overdose coats in the class. And I was just basically running around. I wasn't learning in the moment, my mom was like, What are you doing after half year, I don't even know the open strings of my instruments. She sort of getting into it, it was like, and she started getting all those books. And she started to study by herself. And she started to just teach me and after half year, my mom sort of fired the teacher. And she brought me on this road. And we found a teacher in CT will occasionally go into that teacher's house, like every half year because it's only two hours by bus from the valley. I used to live to the city. So my mom does lead me there, like every half year. But the rest of time she won't be learning by those teaching tapes. And you know, that then, like 20 years ago, then we don't have like DVDs or those kind of things. We have like your VCR like you really big tape. Yeah, yeah, we do. And my mom bought all those teaching tapes and that she just, I don't know, she's amazing. You should learn about ourselves. She got all those books and she watched you have people play on the TV and she just learned how to hold a ball how to read music. She just taught her something and I just after four years and I got into high school consequently, talent, talent program. Yeah, by playing Czajkowski are actually not checkups me. I played school as planning concerto, the first movement when I was 14 years old. Yeah. Well, I started 13 years old. And I yeah, I do not know how I have no idea. How did I do it? Everything for me? Yeah. So that's how I started. And after, you know, years of studies, and I just auditioned, and I got into Singapore. That's long story short, so I got into Singapore finished my bachelor and I started my masters in Pittsburgh. And four years later, I got into the doctoral program is still over. Yeah, that's just the kind of trip. Wow, that is. That's an incredible story that your mom was so passionate for you to play that she basically she became your teacher. And she also ended up teaching her having her own studio. Yeah, brought up so many very, so many talented students. And actually, one of them now works for Amazon and she used to be playing a lot but now she's, she's working for Allah. Come like go scientists for the Amazon yeah what was it like having your mom as a teacher? Was she really tough on you because you were your daughter? Or she was she liked? Yes. I think she has a lot of patience for me. Because I wasn't an easy kid. I do not want to practice but she asked me do you want to practice? No, I definitely absolutely hate practicing with passion. Yeah. But she believes she believes in me and she trusts that I would have this as my career. She's for some reasons too. So that in my in my life, hmm. Yeah. I do not know how she did it. But that's she had been she gave up a lot to give up her work. And she dedicated to my practice. She gave up TV shows. She don't watch TV. And she just cut off her friends for me to just be with me and practice. Yeah, she sets all my lessons and she sets all my practice. Yeah. Is your mom still alive now? Yeah, she's she she now she's a she lives in China. Yeah, so she's been able to see your whole career like she's she's seen everything you've achieved. She must be so incredibly proud of you. Well, she was happy time to time well, she will also get very critical comment. So basically tell me I really don't like your dress that you wear on the performance punch you just tie your hair better I think that phrase you can do that phrase again, like in this way. So Interplay playing and she's so into my performance my like a progress. Yeah. Like a performance related or now like nowadays I teach a lot and she sometimes give me feedbacks or my teaching or she will give me some advice on how to handle my students. Oh, wow. That is incredible. So at that time in China was that something that was out of the ordinary for a mum to do? Well, that's back then. It's very rare that for someone will quit her job. Basically just to dedicate everything give everything to the child. Oh, very unusual. Yeah. Yeah. People don't seem I understand. People even laughed at her like you know, say Oh, I gotta see how is your young daughter going to be but turned out nobody knows what's gonna happen So how old you little boy there seven month and last. I love seeing his photos when you put things up on his on your Instagram. He's just the most gorgeous I bet you hear that a lot. You Yeah, people always like Well, yeah, like if they want people if people know me the result? Ah, he looks like Daddy or you look like mommy. I'd be if I walk on the street. I got someone asked me I knew the nanny. Like there's one day there's a lady random lady come up to me that people find that very respectful but like I just want that for fun. Yeah. Thinking that maybe because my, I wasn't dressed well, because nowadays when you become a mom, you don't have time to think, Oh, I got to put up makeup, I got to dress nicely, I have things first thing on my shirt, or just wear sweatpants and running out, just get some food, you know, like I don't have I could totally actually complain about that tell us about some of the things I was reading in your bio about places that you've performed and things that you've done and share with us a little bit about some of the things the performances or the things you've done that really stick in your mind that that you're like your favorites, I suppose? Well, I have to really say that I really enjoy performing, especially chamber music. And not even mention about solo music. Mean solo means just love it by yourself. So far, I have done a lot of performance with string instruments or piano a lot. And but last year in November, I performed it with a newly formed orchestra in New York City, which is right after, like not too long after I gave birth. I gave birth in August, and then that concert happened in November. I played with this chamber orchestra. Yeah. Yeah, so that's basically what I do. Yeah, the performance. Yeah. And hopefully, a new future that I can't have some more kind of like a chamber music series come up. So I can perform. During the pandemic is a little hard. Oh, like a 2020 2020 2021. Back then from 2020 was a first year. We don't, we don't like everywhere in New York City was shut down. Like retrim Metropolitan Opera was shut down and new. New York Philharmonic was shut down. And all the artists has no stage to perform. The concert halls was close. So but the time I still didn't give up. So I flooded positions we performed on the performance on the road on the side of the road. And we put we played a lot of string string works like like trills, Doros and solo violence. Yeah. And we played those kind of outdoor concerts. You have a pandemic, and we have great turnout. Yeah. And also, I also played a lot in church, which our church I played with organ and piano. Yeah. A lot. The only thing that I don't I didn't do much is in to play in the orchestra. I don't consider myself an orchestral musician. Although I love orchestral music. I love to be your audience. Instead of sitting in. Yeah, maybe hopefully, in the future, maybe I will have a different experience. Or maybe my, my feeling will change. But who knows. I enjoy chamber music. Oh, yeah. The only one of the videos I was watching, you're playing the solo for winter by the rowdy from the four seasons. Can you tell us a little bit about that? That performance? Oh, that performance was in 2013. And I was selected by the school. And that year was the 100 years anniversary for Carnegie Mellon University. So that was to the gala concert. So I was like, there were there was a call permutation is cool. Like, we have like a 10 students playing the same piece. And I got lucky got selected to play that gala concert. And it was it was broadcast at the same time on the wq. Ed. Radio Station classical. Yeah. And to all the December because it will happen in December, right. It was a winter concert and true December. Everyone can hear my flying on this radio station. It was just repeatedly playing during that season. It's like a holiday season. Like, if you hear winter. That's me. I forgot my friend called me. Turn on the radio. You were you were on the plane. Oh, that was wonderful experience for me. And costs a house for a beautiful two. Yeah, and playing in front of that orchestra would have been quite incredible for you. And we have a choir, the choir entire choir was behind me. Like it turned out because there's no time for people to stand out from the stage. So I just have to come out play and then off again Absolutely. So what are your, some of your favorite pieces or favorite composers that you enjoy to play? Well, over the years, it's changing so much. I remember when I was just out from college, I enjoyed the play. Chuck kowski. Like, you know, those very romantic pieces. And then time passing, right that you grow older and you experience a lot in life. And I figured I I do really, really like love Beethoven. And I love Brahms. And then later on, I started to get into a lot of contemporary pieces, too. And buy new composers. Yeah. But in general, my. My favorite composer, I have to say the pieces to play is Beethoven is controllable. And he's so novice and also Bach. Yeah, that's like, the top. Yeah, yeah. I have nothing to work on. If I have nothing to play, I will just do something. Yeah. was pregnant 2020 in November? Yeah. So 2021 is the time like, basically, I got pregnant. And I still manage the practice back then. Although the first three months was really hard, because I my body was just off. I couldn't get off the couch. Yeah. So and then after that I still kept practicing. And so I also managed to have rehearsals with my friend. Yeah. And I had rehearsals in my house. And I also did rehearsal with my friend who plays the viola we we've prepared, prepared for the concert to be happening in November last year. Yeah. But we hadn't rehearsed. So in May, June, July, and, like I go to give birthday August, sort of like that. And I managed to practice because I say is pandemic essence, I'm not going anywhere. So I sort of made a list of work that I wanted to practice. Yeah, but I never get a chance. But now I got pregnant, so I had a plenty time. And then I just started practicing all those pieces. Yeah, yeah. Great, great time to work on things that you don't have time for. But yeah. So like, during that time, I found myself I can sit down and to just focus longer. I do not know. Because if there's a because of hormones or like I have just been changed. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And there's a beautiful photo that you sent me. of you. I'm not can't remember how many months pregnant now, but you've you've got your violin. And then you've got the baby violin sitting on your name. Yeah, that was in June, July. Yeah, July. We're in year two. I watch any beginning of July. We're in year two. Yeah. That's yeah. So like, my friend. I was kept asking me if I want my boy to play instruments. I said no. I saw her daughter swollen. Because my friend she was still photograph. Until I saw that. I was like, oh, like, let me take a photo with it. Yes, I guess maybe we. Listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. You said that you went back and your first performance was when your sound was three months old. How How hard was that to do? Well, I think the trickiest thing for me back then was when we had to have rehearsal. I had the conductor and I had the other soloist came to my apartment. And the hardest thing is you're rehearsing babies all weekend. So the conductor, so they are they're both are my friends. So the conductor has to hold my baby in one hand and listen to us like it's kind of you Yeah, he was. He was to one month in house. Over two months. Yeah. It's amazing what we do, isn't it to make things work? Yeah. And also, sometimes he has to just see through my practice. Yeah, I have to, or like during the rehearsal when the conductor wasn't here, just me and the violist. I had to put him right next to me was not my turn. I sort of like, like a pedicab. Like him to calm down. And when those my term and to enter, I have to grab my esteros. Fast and join. Join her. Yeah, that was it was a challenge. But yeah, but that's the thing, though, isn't it? It's like, I guess you wanted to get back to playing it was important for you to keep that part of your life going. Yeah. So I have to say, if you if I look back from the time when I give birth to now, the hardest thing and making more than most is actually not because I don't have time to practice or I don't have energy is that truly the ones that I because I have to keep holding the baby and I sort of develop mommy's wrist Oh, third most last November when I performed with this collective 366 My wrist my full hand was really painful. I sort of have to change a lot of Boeing's because that to compensate, but a lot of boys that I do. So I because that reason hurts so much. I cannot do a post ago. So I have to sort of change the bowing that I used to do before I give birth. So now I have to change a lot of things to make it happen. Yeah, for sure. And then after performance, the baby is scoring bigger and I have to carry him continuously to calm him down. Right and, and then my left hand also developed the mommy's wrist. So now that I come to the question that uh, do I have to give up my plane? Now, yes, I sort of have to say a lot of said no to a lot of concerts performance. Yeah. It hurts even when I have to just demonstrate to my students. Yeah, I can do. I cannot do shifts. Yeah, on my left hand, I cannot really do shifts because it hurts the muscle when I have to use too. Well, the good thing is this just a temporary in just a moment. So I, I wasn't giving up the whole whole thing yet. So I'm just basically I'm not taking any performance. I'm not performing or having any rehearsal, but I still happen to manage that to practice self care basic skills. Yeah, yeah. Like to, like I'm now here. I'm actually a new mom taking baby steps. Yeah, I'll make sure to Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, physically, you can use I can play longer. longest time I have some some sort of movements that I can do. Yep. Wow. Was that something that you anticipated? When, when you were pregnant? No, I was actually shocked. I didn't know. I didn't do research that I might going to this. Some women, they were experiencing this kind of pain, even before the baby was born. I think it does have something related to the hormones. Do you sort of feel a little bit like, I feel a bit like it's not fair that I've got to give up? You know, playing or do you feel okay with it? I'm okay with it. Because children cared for, like, my baby is extension of my life. And it's from me and my husband. I don't really think it's not fair. And I, but I'm not. Also I'm not gonna say that. I'm enjoying every single moment. Fair. I'm not saying that I'm enjoying every single moment. But I'm, I'm just trying to experience every bit of it. Whether it is happy, whether it's tired, or even sad, or angry, or disappointed, sometimes love my husband is here if you're in there. I'm trying to experience because I believe this thing. Having a baby having a child in my life is should be part of my life. Yeah, let's see. Of course, it is very hard for a woman and to be a mom to be an artist to be a teacher to be an educator. It just so much to do even not to forget to be your wife. Yeah, that's it. I'm still struggling with how to balance sometimes I'm just like, Oh, I'm just really burnout. Yeah, yeah. I think that's something I can all relate to. Yeah, I'm really appreciate that. Although I don't have my parents with me, you know, in our culture, your, your parents can help you. Like, our parents can help us with baby. But we don't have our pants. It's basically me and my husband. So the daytime he is at work. And when he comes home, he will take over the baby then I can have some time to cook. And when the baby go to the bat, then we we finally have some time to eat and to clean it up, you know, just very busy. Oh, yeah. I'm still trying to figure out the time to practice not long, like at least an hour. Because my condition right now. Yeah, I did get angry. That angry and sad that my hands become like this mess, hence saturation. I was a little mad about this. But once I understood that was just gonna be a phrase of my life. And it's just differently. I have to be patient to slowing down with what I do now in life. Actually, actually started to enjoying the process of being with my baby. Because I know this one will never return. He will grow up bigger and this time we'll never return back. I can always go back to play and once he can go to daycare. My goal is not just in time to take here before to, yes. That's right. November last year, because it was just the three months, right, three months of after give birth. And then, you know, yes, before four month we are purely breastfeeding. So I don't really breast breastfeeding him. After two months, I was there pumping out so I can get some sleep. And so and my my friend who was of USA, her name is Makayla, and she was asking me, so what are you going to do when you're on the stage? Are you going to leak or something? Nope. I have. I said, I'm saying I have I think I have that figured out. So I will make sure that I come before I walk on the stage. So yes, you have sort of hot before you walk on the stage. Yeah. Yeah, because you I also have to dress like your performance dress. Right. And so yeah. I think go to time. Perfect. And cannot be too early. It cannot be too late. Yeah, because you also have to mentally prepared you're gonna do you have to perform. You have to be fully concentrate. Yeah. But then pumping is something jumping before the performance. Yes. Something that I got to figure it out. You mentioned about your teaching, you're still teaching now. Yes, I teach a lot. Yeah, I teach. So actually, I went back to teaching two weeks after I give birth. You know, it is pandemic. And it's not like I have to go somewhere. Yeah, it was online. So I spread my students to every day. So I have one hour for each student's per day. So it's not a lot work. So in fact, that's kind of like changing my how my brain works. So I it's so for me, actually teaching become a break for me. Yeah, I really enjoy teaching. That's the only time I don't have to work with baby. I don't have to work with baby. Yeah. And here I really have to, to say to my students, and the parents are so, so nice. So most of the time after New York back to normal, like meaning reopen. So I started to have private student come to my house. And the parents are either helping me carrying the baby or they will just allow me to carry my baby we're teaching. So my baby Jacob was exposed to music. So yeah, he will either sing along when I'm teaching. Yeah. Or he will just drag me my students for he is joining us most of the time. Yeah. That's so nice. Isn't it that he's such a part of it? Yeah. So I also teach in the weekend, weekends on Sunday. That's the time my husband wants so I have that day. I have that day. Just teaching Yeah, for sure. When you first had your son, did you feel like you went through a change in your identity about how you saw yourself? I think this part is very this part of me is very funny. And I don't know if other moms are like this too. After giving birth I cannot believe If I'm already on mom, I can question myself what is going on? And I cannot. Like if people are saying asking me Oh, how is the baby so your baby's fine, but I cannot. I find it really difficult for me to relate me as his mom. Yeah. Well, I have to talk to myself that I'm already a mom. Yeah. So, yes, my identity. I realize my identity changed over the months. For sure. Yeah. So I wasn't really, really aware of it. Even after I gave birth, I wasn't really aware for that. Yeah. Yeah. If you will tell me all your violinist Yes. You're a wife. Yes. But you're a mom. I was like, Let me think about it. But actually, yes. Yeah. This is a topic I like to talk to all my mom's about mom guilt. Is that something that you've experienced? Or? Or what's your thoughts about that? Yes, definitely. That frustration for me? I'm not exactly about because I I have to not been taken care of. It's just because it's because I have to learn how to sort of my What do you say that? Patients? Yeah, yeah. Patients, you know, musicians, artists are very, very emotional. They're very sensitive. We're very sensitive. So whatever. baby cries will make me really, really anxious. That's my gifts. Yeah, right. Make anxious and I find myself at the very beginning. I have very, very difficult time to actually sue him. And also calm myself down. And I will be actually crying together with. Yeah, that's the only mommy guilt. Yeah. Yeah. So well, I did my husband jumping and helping me. Wherever he crushed so much. He will just jump jumping in and take him. Yeah, yeah. Even like in the car riding like, I sometimes I can't really control my emotions when you know, anxious. That's totally normal. It happens to a lot of new moms. Oh, yeah. Well, like my husband won't help not appreciate and I had my students parents that I can talk to, and they won't give me a lot of advice because she had three three kids. Yeah, she got thing and I'm really appreciate these people in my life. Yeah, my mommy guilt is really just handling the baby. Learning. I just felt like I'm not learning that fast enough. I thought it's come natural, but actually not natural. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. But that's my mom. I told her this is way harder than playing a violin. Practice to protect your next moments. And you're you're actually caring about your past, past, present and future you can control sort of controlling even on the stage. You know how it's gonna go. If you practice a baby, you can't. Oh, yeah, everyday. Yeah. So that's, it's very challenging, isn't it? Yeah. Challenging. Yeah. And also, yeah, I just felt like it's having a baby has a very, very big impact in my career. Yeah. But no regrets. I'm happy this I still happy that I made a decision decision to be alone. Yeah. Yeah, like you said, it's a phase in your life and in he'll grow and change and then there'll be other things you know, As always, your violin will always be there also, I won't let my identity that's part of me, I don't want that to go. I want my children look at me in the future when they answer their own since I'm in their eyes, I'm not only their mom, I want them to see that. During the hardest time, I never give up what I love. Because rather than teaching is what I love. And making music, be able to play with people is what I love. And I want my children to see that. Even through the hardest time I have to make choice to give my life my time and attention to them. But I never give up what I love, and I always come back to it. Yeah, absolutely. And I will go get this encouragement from my wife, my mentor. His name is Philip Setzer. He's the violinist from Amazon, the famous Amazon quartet. He told me that his mom gave up her performance her career in for him to bring him up, spend all the time for the family to be a mom. But eventually, her mom came back and auditioned to kill Cleveland Symphony Orchestra and go into that orchestra and spend the rest of your life with that orchestra still be a professional Yeah, yes, he wrote this email to me he says he wants to give me some encouragement that never give up. Now that's wonderful that is so good. Hold on yeah I'm very happy and I'm also very appreciate that the people in my life my friends that I mentioned earlier, the music director of collective 366 That's new orchestra and they are my friend in life that they always told me never give up they always told me well we're gonna play again yeah I'm really really appreciate that those people who you my life wanted to make music with me. Yeah, that I never forget my identity. Absolutely. Oh, good on you. That sounds like you've got some really good people around yes fantastic. Have you got anything coming up any performances or things that you want to share with us? So a music festival coming up in May. This is organized by conservatory Lila, named Lila music conservatory and that they have Music Festival in May. And also in August there will be some masterclass happening in the same place. I don't have further concerts coming up yet because my hands addiction. But I have two concerts planned in my in my mind. One is a solo works cause that was on the fingertips. And basically I will play a lot of dance music by Bach and also some contrary pieces and collaborated with some dancers. And also there will be another concert just basically by Stravinsky some work by Stravinsky and Bach. Yeah, wonderful. With Anest let's update those informations once I have clear debt on my on my website oh good on you. That sounds great. Oh look, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you and having you little man there too. Yeah. Is very active. He wants to he already knows how to post them. Okay, by seven half. He hasn't had one taste yet. But he already can. He can already set up by himself. And he wants to pause then and just don't want to be just steel wants to move around. He wants to go ready to get very tired, but like Sometimes when I practice I just put him in a walker, or a Noona. Like the chair, and I just play for him. Yeah. Me, like, what are you doing? Yeah, most recently, last Saturday, I brought him to a piano masterclass. The professor played one phrase of Chapin. And it was so it's a it's a sad music. And he was he was so touched by the music. He was full tears in his eyes and start crying oh I'm gonna let you go now. You can have Mammootty yourself again. Oh, it was so nice to talk to you. Oh. My mom was a great example for me. Never give up. And that's the math was like I I learned I saw how that happened. Absolutely. I hope in the future, I can come back to the stage again and continue to share great music with people with everyone. I'm sure you will. I'm absolutely sure you will. We don't yet. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

John Cuk Father's Day Ep. - US conductor + educator S2 Ep49 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Each Father's Day I like to do a few special eps. To mark the occasion in the Northern Hemisphere my guest for this special Father’s Day Episode is John Cuk, from New York, USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist, and a dad of 2 girls. John started playing the piano at age 5, played the trumpet in a band, sang in choirs, grew up going to the theatre, opera and going to concerts, even though his parents weren’t musical he was exposed to the arts. In school he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. He went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and The Manhattan School of Music as well as post graduate work from Westminster Choir College and gained his Masters in Piano Performance. John juggled being a professional musician with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the class room brought him. John's career in academia spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, Somers High School, Middle Schools in Chappaqua, New Rochelle, Rye and at The Anglo-American School in New York. He retired from his position as the Director of Choirs at Manhattanville College in Purchase, NY in 2018 after 16 collective years there. John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor, he’s conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Alice Tully Hall, Marmorsaal, Schloss Mirabell (Salzburg, Austria), Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ (Constanța, Romania), Kennedy Library (Boston), Música Sin Edad (Buenos Aires, Argentina), Temppeliauki, (Helsinki, Finland) and The International Youth Orchestra Festival (Lucca, Italy). Active in musical theatre and opera, John has held positions with Music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, Opera Estate in Rome Italy, Utopia Opera and Dell' Arte Opera in New York, New York, Buck Hill/Skytop Festival in Pennsylvania, Westchester Conservatory's Summer Vocal Music Academy in White Plains, New York, as well as Musical Director for countless musical theatre productions both at the high school and college level. Guest conducting includes Ridgefield Symphony (CT), Chorus and Orchestra of Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ Constanța, Romania, Orchestra Sinfonica di Bacau, Romania in Italy, Moldova Radio Symphony in Chisinau Moldova, National Chorale's Annual Messiah-Sing-In at Avery Fisher Hall as well as choral festivals for Western Connecticut, Suffolk, Duchess and Westchester Counties in New York. He is active as a coach, accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. John performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians and is currently a staff pianist for The Bronx Opera. It is always interesting on these occasions to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it is something that many of us are interested in, it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with mums. I'm very grateful for John for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing and music overall. Connect with John Connect with the podcast Music throughout this episode is taken from the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I present a special Father's Day episode to mark the occasion in the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. It is always interesting on these occasions, to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it's something that many of us are interested in. And it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with moms. My guest for this special episode is Shaun cook. He's from Connecticut in the USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist and a dad of two girls. John started playing the piano at age five. He played the trumpet in a band, singing choirs grew up going to the theater, opera and to concerts. And even though his parents weren't musical, he was exposed to the arts from a young age. In school, he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. John went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and the Manhattan School of Music as well as postgraduate work from the Westminster choir college, and he gained his master's in piano performance. John juggled being a professional musician, with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the classroom brought him. John's career in academia has spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, summers high school, middle schools in Topanga, New Rochelle, right and at the Anglo American school in New York. In addition, he retired from his position as the director of choirs at Manhattanville College in purchase New York in 2018. After 16 collective years there, John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor. He's conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, and Avery Fisher Hall, as well as in Salzburg, Austria, in Romania, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Helsinki, Finland, and in Lucca, in Italy, active in musical theater and opera, John has held positions with music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, opera estate in Rome, Italy, Utopia Opera in New York, New York, among others, as well as musical director for countless musical theater productions, both at the high school and college level. John is active as a coach accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. He performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians, and is currently a staff pianist for the Bronx opera. I greatly appreciate John's openness and honesty throughout this chat. And for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing, and music in general. I hope you enjoy the music you'll hear throughout this week's episode is in the public domain and therefore is not subject to copyright. Thanks so much for joining me today, John, all the way from United States. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me inviting me. So whereabouts are you over there? I'm in the Northeast. I live in a town in the state of Connecticut about an hour's drive north of New York City. Yeah, right. Do you get to go to New York very often. Does your work take you there? Or? Yes, it's not as easy a commute as I would I would like it anyway. But I have gotten to work in New York often because it is it is the center, you know, of all musical things and theatrical things here. Yeah. So on that. So you're a conductor, a musician, yourself, you play the piano. Sorry. Can you share with us starting off with sort of how you got into what you've done with your life over the last how many years? Many years? Well, I, you know, I started playing at a very young age, I was five when I started playing piano, and was involved in a variety of musical things. I played the trumpet, in a band assigned choirs. We went to the theater, or we went to concerts. So there was, even though my parents were not musical, we were exposed to a great deal of music and the arts. I went to a sort of an academic high school that had a terrific choir. And so I latched into that as well as a good band. And going through the thought of going to music to study to be a teacher, be a music teacher. I had the experience of so many great music teachers, both in elementary school music, elementary school and high school, that I thought it was a worthy thing to do. And so I went to a small little suburban liberal arts school in New York State, got a degree in music, education, but also did a lot of playing. I had also learning Oregon, as at a young age and played in churches, and realized that, you know, the teaching piece was really important to me, but the music piece was was equally important. And so I tried to pursue both I got out of undergraduate school, took a few years off, and then decided I was going to get my Master's in piano performance at the Manhattan School of Music in New York City. And so at that point, I was kind of on the track that I wanted to be a full time performer. But there was a part of me that just couldn't accept, sitting in a practice room says for six to seven hours by yourself, I love a making music with other people, especially singers. But I also really love the classroom as well. And so I finished my masters and rather than hit the road and play, I got a teaching job and tried to maintain both professions. Good. So for many, many, many, many years, it was tough to do. You know, one of the things I think that I loved about teaching was that it really grounds zoo, you know, Monday morning comes in, the students come into your room, they don't care what performance you had on the weekend, or how great you were, they could care less. I enjoyed that the fact that I could go out and you know, and freelance and do what I thought were wonderful things but in the morning, I had to, I had to prove it to my students. They didn't want to hear about my exploits. Yeah. And so you know, maintaining a practice schedule while your your full time teaching, then apparent, you know, is is challenging. But, you know, I tried to do the best I could with it. And I have no complaints about the choices I make. I made your my life. I retired from the teaching bit I taught at a number of public secondary schools. The last one, a very, very good one in New York Scarsdale High School. And I also taught for 15 years as a was the choral director at a small liberal arts music school also in the New York metropolitan area. Because choral and vocal was also very, very big. And I love working with words. I love working with singers. And I retired and I ended up freelancing before this pandemic hit. And then what changes again? Oh, yeah, we could have a whole nother conversation about life. I've had enough I was really interested to speak to you because when I saw that you conducted not just orchestras, but also vocal groups and inquires, I spent probably 20 years of my life, singing in vocal groups and choirs, and I just absolutely loved, loved it so much. I learned so much from it. And I thought, I haven't spoken to another conductor. I don't think ever, I mean, the conductor that conducted me for all that time. And I just thought it'd be really nice. As part of this podcast to indulge myself a little bit. Game. I can do it, Carla. Yeah, so yeah, I spent years singing like that time, like Kirby Shaw was really big on these sorts of arrangements and was just a great time we saying we're all female. So we're SSA or SSI. And I was I'm an alto or second outro. And I used to just add, and I just love that feeling of blending and changing your tone to suit people around you and listening at the same time as singing. It just taught me so much about working with other people and a no compromise. You know, it's not all about me, I'm not a soloist, here, it's, we're all working together. The choral thing is just, it's an amazing bit of humanity. And I, for one, when you mentioned, you know, SSA or s a women's groups, I one of my favorite activities was to conduct women's groups. Yes, I almost felt like they invited me into their little thing. But the bonding that goes in a women's group and a sound as you say that you know, how you you really have to change a little bit of your, of your your thought process. But when it happens, the energy in a women's group is unlike any performing group I that I know of. And I, I love that I'm probably missed that the most about not conducting is conducting women's groups. But yeah, what you say is, so it's so true about choral groups. And I think when a conductor is savvy enough to to know that it's not really just about the music, but it's also about the people, because the force of the group shouldn't necessarily come from the podium, it should come from within. And if you can create that sort of atmosphere where they were the singers feeling engaged, and part of this, that they're not just being lectured. It's a it's just an amazing feeling. I missed that I miss choral groups. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, the buzz that you get, like, we were, like, I'm in my 40s. Now. So I started singing in that group when I was probably 14. And we always used to look around at each other. And just, we were just these individual kids and teenagers. And as we grew up, we kept saying, how do we sound so good? Because we'd look at each other and think, Well, we're not like that good. You know what I mean, as individuals, but then when we'd sing together, it would just be this amazing sound. And we just think, I don't know, it, just it the collective, you know, we'd just have this amazing energy and, and it was it was like you say, like a sort of a, it was a humbling experience, I think to realize that there was things you could achieve that were greater than yourself and greater than your own ego, I suppose. Yeah, it was just when I look back on it. Now, I don't think I realized at the time, how fortunate I was to have that experience and for such a long time with the same roughly the same group of people. Yeah, it was fun. The bond, that amount of bonding that happens in those groups, it's just amazing. It's like, you know, it doesn't happen in an all males group. And it doesn't, it certainly doesn't happen in a mixed group. There is some bonding and a mixed group, but it just for some reason, women are much more able and capable of loosening some of the garbage that's around all of us. And I you know, I knew I could never I could never get really that close to it because of who I am. But it just was awesome to be around and the way they treated each other though. They backed each other, you know, and and it reflects in the sound. That's why this the sum of its parts is more important than the individual. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the perfect description, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, he's just us, he said that it just reminded me of this moment, when we were recording, we recorded a couple of albums. Back in the 90s, this is going back. And we had to travel to Adelaide to record it, because our little town doesn't have any sort of capacity for recording how many people in one room at one time, and we were doing this particular song I can't make I think it was called Johnny has gone for a soldier, it's that was like, Oh, amazing, amazing song. And the soloist was having a bit of trouble, because she had to record it live while we're all recording. And so she was having a bit of trouble. I can't remember what parts or whatever. And our conductor took us aside and he said, we have to, we have to keep doing this. And I've done it a few times. But we have to keep doing it for Rene. And he basically gave us a choice. He said, we can go home now because it's the end of the day, and we come back and get it done the next day and stay an extra day. Well, we can stay here tonight, we can get it done. And we can you know, get Rene solo through and and we will get a we're gonna do it. We're gonna stay here now and get it done. And, you know, like that just support get behind each other. You know, it was just, and we wanted it to be good for her. We wanted her to have that experience as well and achieve what she wanted to, I suppose as the soloist because, you know, it's it's important when you get a solo to do it justice for yourself, you know how you want to present it. So I could totally relate to that. And that's interesting to hear that in your experience that it's not something that happens with with the men's group in the mix so. Hey, sorry, I've got a visit I forgot to say that. I'd say sorry. No, no, no, no, no, I, I had to. I had to in some of the some of the things they pulled me in concerts. Oh, yeah, my little one decided once she was going to mimic me conducting from the audience. I think she was better. That would have been lots of laughs people around, it would have enjoyed it. But did you? Did you start to realize at the time what was happening that she was doing that? Yeah, it was right behind me. You know, because we were both my wife was playing and I was conducting. Yeah, just school concert. So it wasn't, you know, it's not Carnegie Hall. But we had put them in a seat because we were sort of in the pit area. And we put them in seats right behind us. So that, you know, they wouldn't wander and they wouldn't, you know, be by themselves. And so, because we're both occupied, you know, here, I'm doing these grand gestures. And all of a sudden, I noticed that there's a mirror behind me doing. And the audience is laughing. Oh, that's so special. Isn't it? Like, Oh, I love that. That isn't? Well, I mean, you're, you know, the title. Or at least the you know, the title of the of your podcast is having to do dealing with family and being a musician. And that's a, that's a tough lift. You know, it is a tough lift. But when, when you have a moment like that, you know, then you realize that, you know, how special it is for also for the for the children, you know, my children's still sort of involved in music. So, yeah, it's sort of validating, I suppose, then you realize that they see what you're doing, like, there. And in a way, they're probably so proud of you. That's probably not the words a child would use. But, you know, to mimic you to copy what you're doing. You know, that's where they say flattery is the what's the word? Something's the biggest form of flattery. I can't actually, it's too late. You know what I mean? Like she or he, I'm sorry, what if, like, there was so. So wrapping what you were doing so? Yeah, I think that's a lovely story. I have two daughters. One is 34. And the other is third, the 231 311 lives in Northern New York State almost by the Canadian border, the city of Rochester. She, she's an opera director. And she does a freelancing and works as an adjunct in some schools. And the other is getting her master's in information in library sciences in New York. And she lives in Brooklyn. Yeah, right. Yeah, opera. That's that's a whole new world, isn't it? That's like, compared to the car. Well, like, it's different isn't? It? Isn't it isn't? You know, I, opera is a big piece of my, my background. And frankly, I got into opera as a young person and musical theater before I got into choral music. But, you know, I mean, some of the core, some of the opera choruses are amazing piece of choral work. And you're also dealing with languages, you know, you're dealing with subtexts. In some cases, you know, classic stories. I know, perhaps, maybe people think that opera is passe. I don't I mean, what's happening? I don't know what's happening there. But what's happening here is a massive revolution in librettos, and people writing operas, and not just regurgitating the same 25 year a year, but it's, I love it. You know, it's a combination really of great orchestral music, great choral music and great solo music, and theater. What more could you have? Yeah, that's it, it takes so many books, this doesn't, does and then this band is ballet. And some of them I actually had, the episode I released just this week was with a dancer from the Australian ballet. And I, I recorded with her for almost three hours, because I couldn't stop talking about the music. And thank goodness, she was kind enough to indulge me but I was just like, I don't know, that obviously, as a musician, I'm so enthralled by that part of of ballet. And I just find that just the whole world of ballet is a mystery. So it was lovely to be here to share a lot of these behind the scene things we all think it's a bit like that Black Swan movie, but she showed me that it's not all like that some parts of it. Those they had a hard they really have a hard because they have to make it early. Young. And, and I think the physical, there's a physical toll and music as well. But the physical toll on on dancers is really intense. So I think they haven't my Google, oh, the way she was describing what they do how like the days, they're doing there might be rehearsing one day and then performing that night, but they'll be doing perhaps they're not rehearsing the show they're doing that night anymore. They're learning the next one. And it's just like, not only would your brain be spinning, but your body is just under the pump, you know, sometimes six or seven days a week. And like when I was talking to us, I was trying not to be sound too daunted. But I was like, This sounds exhausting. Like how do you guys actually do it? Like, you know, and then to fit in having a family as well? Like, how how do you physically manage it all? It's just such a know, a really challenging world. Yeah. I think I think Broadway actors are similar in that, you know, I I know a few and I had a few former students and their lives aren't just it's not the rock star stuff that you think it is that we all think that media thinks it is? Yeah, no, they're working eight nights a week. They can't really take time off because you don't know if a show is going to close. They're worried about what the next show comes. There's the physicality of it they they actually have misuses and people backstage to deal with them when they were there elements. It doesn't exactly sound Like, you know, rock star movie star kind of thing we are, it's, it's such hard work and that and it makes you appreciate it, when you see it, you think of, if you can, if you have an appreciation of what they've been through, to be able to bring you what you're watching, just, you know, have such respect for these people and the work that they've done, and continue to do so. So you mentioned before that your wife is also a musician, what does what does she play? What'd she do? She, she was a pianist, also. And a choral director, she actually called her up to the schools. Most her age group was mostly here in the US grades six through eight. And sometimes a little younger. And so, you know, we, in one way, we had a one where you sort of had an advantage because we were both on a school schedule, which helps in bringing up children in another way. A disadvantage is that December, May in June, you know, like, some similarity was always out at night. And so, you know, trying to figure out who's picking the kids up who's getting dinner, who's that sort of thing, but she you know, I don't think she had I can say this, we, we've been married with a beetle before you for two years in May. But we shouldn't have that kind of burning passion to really want to play by herself. She was very comfortable and love the classroom and loved the whole element of the classroom. And she was coral. Like I said that and she was a really good teacher, she retired also, this is her first year of retirement. You know, she kind of bridged a little bit into that sort of that pandemic teaching and decided that this is not really what I signed up for Yeah, but so we did share a lot of music and a house I mean, there was always music in the house somebody was always playing and although we tried not to force our kids to be in music it you know just sort of happened sometimes you just can't help but if you if you're surrounded by it it's it just gets into you doesn't know you feel the need to go up and conduct is that that daughter that that imitated us that the daughter that is the opera director? No Actually no, no she she was the younger she's the younger daughter and she was very as a child growing up how can I say spicy monkey still is a little bit she played actually she played the viola through school and was quite good but again did not have that you know there's there's a certain there's a certain amount of mania and I might even say sickness that you need to have to, to kind of keep that thing going and neither girls although they love music, and they were quite good at it, they just didn't have that to go to go beyond that which is just fine. You know, it's not but no, she never. She played a few decent orchestras and you know, we used to play together sometimes I would accompany her if she asked me but no, never took up the baton except for that one time. Maybe she read the critics loved it. That story. That is a really good story. Hello so in that, but you've, your wife and yourself are sort of juggling the parenting role and trying to do your music was that I had an I had a weird it, was it ever sort of uh, was it? Was it hard to sort of juggle who was going to get to do certain things? Were there ever sort of clashes where it was like, we don't both try to do the same thing like that, that that experience where you had to take the girls with it? Was there a lot of that sort of stuff where you're both having to be out and bringing the children with you? I would say there was a little angst on on who's you know? And if, but I, I could, we were very good to each other and that we communicated, you know, and we knew what what needed to be done. So like, if I was doing a show, that pretty much meant, like for the last 10 days I was done. And if she was doing a show was the same thing? No, like there's any, you know, he might say chase you. But with the with the onset of digital calendars. makes things a lot easier, because now all of a sudden, everything is like in front of you. And everything has is in front of me and vice versa. Well, we didn't have that when, when our daughters were growing up, but it helped being in a school schedule, for sure. You know, they were it would sometimes be is if I had extra stuff if I was doing extra freelance things on the weekends or sometimes. You know, I did a few festivals over this festival over the summer, which took me away for a bunch of time. There were maybe there was a little friction there. But I don't you know, I think with some of that. And I know what you're driving at with the question, I think is that, you know, like sometimes well, it is, you know, somebody, somebody gives up a portion of their thing for the house, household, and the other person does it. And in a sense, I kind of did that. But not really because I still was teaching my main focus was teaching and playing in church. And my wife's focus was teaching, completely teaching. So it's not like anybody. Anybody asked somebody else to do something extraordinary. So that you could make it big at the Metropolitan Opera. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know, people were who have have had to do that. And you know, that causes great tension, and sometimes they can split up for that. But we did not have to deal with that. And I think that's part of, again, going back to our original set, the grounding that teaching gives you really negates some of that. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for indulging that question that sort of, you know, I'm appreciative of your giving me your time as, as the man in the relationship to how you deal with that, and how that makes you feel, you know, what I mean? It's like, I think on my show, we do talk a lot about how women try to cope, you know, sometimes in a man's world and depending on what sort of art circle they might be in. So I find it I just, you know, in a kind and respectful way to hear what the other side has to say, You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I, you know, and I think, I think one of the problems is that there isn't enough dialogue about that. It's something that really people don't think about when when they do get married or when they have children. Is that okay? And perhaps, perhaps, it certainly is better than what it was when I was growing up where, you know, there were, there were definitely roles carved out. You know, my father went out to work, my mother stayed home, she didn't go out to work sometimes. But the one thing I did learn from my father, because he worked in a restaurant business he cooked. And so to me, that was never something that was, well, you know, I don't want to I don't want to do that. As matter of fact that that in some ways for me, if I'm going to the market and buying stuff, and cooking it, that's a real release valve. I mean, I actually really enjoy doing that. Yeah. And so I think that the problems occur when you don't communicate and I think there are certain things that I know my wife does that other people might think are so called manly things to do. Because I don't like doing them, and I'm not very good at them. The things that I do that might some people might say, are not manly kinds of things. And I don't care. I also think that a lot of those those, those, those boundaries are changing, they certainly change, you know? And who know who would not want to be involved with rearing your children being around your children? I mean, I can't imagine why you'd want to, why would you have them anyway. So that's somebody that you used to look forward to when, when, when they were young, I do this once by accident. And I would take a day off from school in December after my concerts were done. I pull them out of school. And I take him to Manhattan. And the first my wife was out doing a concert and I was home with the girls got Chinese takeout or prices to carry out and decided to rent the film Breakfast at Tiffany's, which they've never seen before. And so they allow, I was glad that they fell in love with I hadn't seen it since I was a kid. So they wanted to go have Breakfast at Tiffany's. I took the day off, we went into Manhattan. We sent the student for a Tiffany's with a bagel or whatever it was, and then went to the tree. And it just it was such an amazing day that I ended up doing that for maybe four or five years after that, not necessarily going to Tiffany's but other parts of Manhattan at the time with the two of them. And I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet they remember those, like really special memories, too. It's part of their childhood. Yeah, they do, actually. Yeah, that's lovely. But I think you're right, though. It's like the gender stereotypes, the gender roles are being challenged, which is awesome. I don't think I could have had this conversation. You know, in my dad zero, that would have just been What are you talking about? Like, why is why is this even a question? This is, this is not what happens. You know what I mean? It's just things are changing in that that's awesome for everybody. Because that's the thing, like, just because, like I spoke to a dad for this podcast last year for the Father's Day episode, and he said this, because I'm the dad, why was it assumed that I'm the one that has to leave the house and go to work? Why can't I be the one that stays with my children? Because I love my children? Why would I want to stay with my children? So you know, everyone's the mind shift. The mindset is shifting with every generation and which is awesome. Like, it's really good. Yeah, I almost wish it was shipped a little faster here in the United States. Yeah, yes, things not shipped so fast. As I'm sure you can see. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So you talk about communication being really important. Did you at that time, when you were thinking about starting your family? Was that a discussion that your wife and yourself had? How's this going to work with our careers? And what we want to keep trying to do musically? Was that? Was that something that happened then? No. We, we were married for seven years before we had our first born and how grant time flitting around going into the city going to Europe. I I loved our lifestyle. I really didn't want it to change. And but I knew having a child was was really important in my life. And I'm not sure if it was that important to me. And I kept I wouldn't say resist, but you know, you know, the usual and we don't have my mind. We don't house you know, that sort of thing. And then finally, I would that's part that's part I assume has to be part of the package. So I didn't want to go back on my word. I was frightened. Frankly, to be really honest. I thought that my entire life would change completely. Um, and I remember, you know, both girls were C sections and my wife was in a hospital, the first one. I remember, she was in hospital and I came home from visiting. And I was by myself and I remember sitting with a very large glass of wine. Watching. It was a European cable channel that used to we used to be able to get that doesn't exist, I don't think it exists. And we're watching the Mozart Piano Concerto in D minor. And thinking, you know, I'll never play that. You know, I'm sure most of it was just the exhaustion. shock of it. But, you know, I woke up the next day, went back to the hospital, you know, and I was the first one to actually hold her, you know, she was a little thing, you know, and and that whole thought process at that point, it didn't matter anymore. You know, I, but I also to remember playing a recital, like the week after, or like 10 days after being absolutely exhausted. And that's basically that what I realized that my life was going to be as it was just going to, it wasn't going to be that sort of picture. Perfect. I can go and do a gig someplace, and I'm prepared and I'm rested. I'm fired up. It says, basically, let me stay awake long enough to finish it and then go home and crash. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I realized that my life would not change much. I mean, it does change, of course, you know, it has to change. But when it would not change, or at least what I felt was important I like she was she was an infant. And I remember watching a broadcast of a live broadcast from, I guess, the Metropolitan Opera of Mozart's Magic Flute. And Emily was on the floor with me just before bed, and it got to the point where the Queen of the Night sings this array up, up, up, up, up, up, up up a Berber put her bed, I finished watching the thing, the next morning, the next day after school, I come home and she's kind of like trying to sing it. So I went out and got a boombox. I bought the highlights CD of The Magic Flute. And now I realize she has she has the disease. Oh, one. Yeah, and they've always been, you know, we've schlepped them to so many different not only school performances, but also stuff that we aren't being close to Manhattan to New York. They've seen a lot of stuff so but you know, I think at that point, I realized that you know, this these two things can commingle? I was going to ask you, as you were talking about that was you realize that you didn't have to give up one thing to have the other it's that your music and your child, your children could actually, like you said coexist, that would have been a really relieving moment, I would have thought that you sort of would have thought I'm not going to lose it or I'm not going to have to, you know, give up something. No, no, yeah, it was, you know, the, the what it did impress upon me is that I was going to have to work harder to maintain it. Yeah. And sometimes I couldn't maintain it the way I would want to, you know, like I couldn't get to a piano to practice or I couldn't I had to turn down something. But I would have to be it would be more on my shoulders to try to balance those two things like not practicing when they're asleep and those kinds of things. I can see how it would have been a very difficult set have choices for somebody else to make. But once I saw them, as you know, once I saw them, that was not a difficult choice anymore, you know, as much as I love music they don't take that doesn't take the place of my children, you know? Yeah, and I think that's something that everyone's afraid of when, when you, you, you sort of presented with this prospect of having a child and your life completely changing, you have this fear of, what's my life gonna look like? Off you go? Go on, go see that place. You'll be asleep when I come out. That just proves it doesn't it? Just proves it. It's just an you know, sort of, I just have to go go with the flow of it all. Because in the end, to me, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he's what matters. Yeah. You know, whether I have to wait 10 minutes or not, that doesn't matter, you know, and if it doesn't, and if it did matter, then then I'm an idiot, you know, because that was more important at that, at that point, and balancing all of that, bravo, you know, that's gonna be hard for what you're doing. Because you're in your house. It's not like you can go someplace else. It is, it is challenging. But the thing that I like to remind myself is that he does have to be parents, and there's a time and place for each parent to have what they need. Because I think it's really important for you to be filled up yourself, have your cup filled up, especially if you, you know, if I think you have to be nurtured yourself before you can nurture someone else, I think it's really important to do that, and that's why I've never stopped singing never stopped creating, through having both kids through both pregnancies. It's like, I think it's just a part of who you are. And that identity doesn't change just because you become a parent, is that part of your life's not going to just, you know, go up in smoke, you're all of a sudden not going to be a creative person, just because you're a parent, you know? Yeah. And that certainly is not, you know, your parents or my parents reality, they had to give up things that they may have wanted to do. I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also what makes creative people also want to do stuff because they, it's almost I don't want to say they want to prove a point that it can be done. But it's like, you've seen how, perhaps your parent your parents gave up stuff that they wanted to do. And maybe that doesn't feel right for you, you don't. And because society's changed, you have those opportunities, so you're going to take them I suppose that's I guess that's a way of trying to describe it. Again, not to delve into the into politics, but I think one of the things that's, that's difficult here in United States is that we don't have daycare. Daycare is all private. And so, you know, there is no infrastructure for we were fortunate that we we made enough money for both of us to go out working and somebody who's watching the children, and then when they went to school, somebody wouldn't, you know, but I remember moving into this house now, where we were, the biggest issue wasn't whether we can afford this was whether we're going to be able to find daycare that was appropriate for both girls. And that that piece I think, helps to be able to share the responsibility and for people to be able to say, okay, I can keep a piece of myself and still be a parent and etc. But I feel so awful, you know, even it was highlighted here, certainly during the pandemic when daycare centers were shut down, and people who really need that, you know, the working class or the poor, have to sacrifice going to work with having their kids at home. And again, I don't want to know, I actually I don't mind delving in politics because I'm old enough to have seen the world spin a few times. And my only hope for this country, you know, we label everything is to make it easier for people to have families and to go to work and to have their dreams, then we can we could have that all. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like a lot of it comes down to circumstance, like you can have all the dreams in the world. But if you physically cannot do it, for whatever constraint that said, it has to has to stop, doesn't it? Yeah, I actually, I spent nine years working in childcare here in Australia. And I'd recently just resigned from that job a couple of weeks ago. And they desperately we need an overhaul here desperately. The same thing during COVID, we didn't get shut down. But the the limitations put on access to childcare were greatly changed. So if only if you were an essential worker, you were allowed to use childcare. So basically deciding whose job was important enough to be able to have childcare, which I thought was pretty ordinary, and a lot of parents obviously, were not happy with that they would ring us and say, Well, why isn't my job important enough? Who decides? You know, the government's decided, but obviously, the sentence the person who answers the phone is the one who's copying that question. And that's not a question they can answer. But that's how people feel. And I can understand that I don't think it's it's not a fair thing to put on people to decide. You're whether you're important enough in in this community in our country, or not, it was just a bit of a mess, to be honest, but Well, yeah, you know, there's an issue here too, about how birth rates are going down. Well, if people are worried about having children, because they can't work. Of course, birth rates are gonna go down. Well, you know, I but yeah, there's a whole thing that just reminded me I listen to a lot of BBC Radio. And they were having a big thing on there the other month about China, how they're now wanting people to have three children. And they were saying, well, there's no infrastructure set up for mums to return to work, there's no childcare, there's, you know, they don't have like nannies system, like it's not a thing over there. So how can you expect people to return to work if you don't give them the, the tools to be able to do it? It's all well and good saying have three kids, it's like, well, hang on a sec, I actually still want to work or need to work. Yeah, it's the also piggyback on your, you know, the point of our conversation, is that that's, that's a huge, a huge, huge issue for people who are in the arts, about having family, you know, and also, you know, if somebody's a freelancer, or, you know, let's say they're fortunate enough to have one of the big jobs, you know, orchestra, full time orchestra or health benefits, the whole thing. Those things happen, like you're a ballet dancer, they rehearse during the afternoon in the morning, and they play at night. And usually they stay in the same hall all day long. So somebody's got to be home. Or there has to be some some accommodation for Where do the kids go? Yeah. That's only if you're you're fortunate to be married to somebody who has that kind of a position. But most of the musicians I know, they're all you know, they're either office temping someplace, and they're they're running out to do gigs at night and taking whatever comes along. And it is certainly a lot harder for them than it ever was for us to to try to bring a family. There's this whole the gig economy, we call over here, people who are freelancers and, and that kind of stuff that they they suffered hugely through the pandemic, because they didn't get the support from the government that other people did, too. So that was a whole nother sort of cultural division of why why is some people worthy of receiving money from the government and some people aren't and the arts just suffered so much. And that's something that I think half the reason why, hopefully, we'll have a change of government because people have realized that the sports kept going and the sports were supported, and that there was all sorts of allowances made for them to travel through interstate to keep playing their football and whatever else they were playing, but the arts just stopped. And even at a local level, there was no support, so I don't I don't that frustrates me. But anyway, we've got an election coming so we can do something about you. Know, I think it's endemic in Australian culture that that of Sport comes first sport. So the bail and endo and the arts are the poor cousin. Unfortunately. But anyway, here too. Yeah. Well, we are here just even on the school's bounce, we're screaming about how their kids games were canceled and you know, the colleges wouldn't come and see them kids play and they wouldn't get into college and scholarships and and so they ended up allowing indoor games like basketball when you couldn't sing in a in a you know, you couldn't have a choir. Yeah. What's the difference? Yeah, that singing that singing thing really got us over here as well. That was just really? Yeah, it's hard. You'd have 40,000 people sitting in a stadium watching a football match, but you couldn't gather together in a room and sing together? Come on just the Yeah. Very frustrating. But anyway, hopefully that all that stuff's behind us now and when to get something else. The next variant? Yeah, oh good. Coming back to you as a conductor, I wanted to ask and I haven't I haven't asked you this previously. So I'm going to put you completely on the spot. So if you like to move on to something else and come back to this in a minute, that's fine. I wanted to ask you, what's your favorite piece to conduct? And why? Is it two out of a question? Well, it here here's my usual stock answer when people say to me, what's your favorite composer? Or what's your favorite piece of music? It's like saying, What's your favorite food? There's sometimes I like a plate of pasta. Or sometimes I like a beautiful piece of grilled fish. And there are some times that I might even like pizza. I don't really have it's like, there's a line from this show Oklahoma. When Wilbur Parker asks Adel, Annie, well, which guy do you like better? And she says, whichever one I'm with, I try in conducting and playing. To find even if it's something that I don't may not connect with initially. I tried to find something in it, that I can get my hook into it, and then expand out example, I resisted working learning conducting Carmina Burana for years and years years. I just felt like it just you know, it just seemed like some raucous pieces, you know. And then, this was my college position. They, they hired a new president, who was of German descent. And he decided he wanted the choir to sing a few movements of Carmina Burana at his installation. Interesting choice, I would think, especially with some of that text. So I felt like I really couldn't say no. Even though I didn't have the kind of forces to put that together. So I sat and I studied it. I chose some movements. I managed to get money out of them to put it together. And I did it. And frankly, I enjoy the rehearsal, and I enjoyed the performance in it. So that's an example of something that I had absolutely no, and I knew I had, I should I should do it because everybody does it. I'm more of a lyricist. I mean, I love I love. I love great text. I love melody but I also love complexity. I would say Probably my favorite thing to conduct his BA. Because I love puzzles. Yeah, those kinds of musical puzzles. But there's something there's something tremendous about conducting Verity. There's something tremendous the one guy that that scares me. Let me be honest, but it's probably not gonna be broadcast United States a little matter. Beethoven, I know, people would say, Are you crazy? That's like the pinnacle. Beethoven, to me is so dense, and is one of those composers that I have to work really hard to get at the kernel of it. It just, it's not easy for me. It's not easy for me to play. It doesn't fit my hand well. And it just I look at the score and it's almost like I look in a language that I don't understand. I like to say I probably have enjoyed it. But it's not my desert island kind of fit. I mean, I love listening to it. And obviously his place in music is amazing. To me, Mozart, Mozart operas. Mozart symphonies. CalWORKs Wow. Poulenc Gloria is one of my favorite pieces. The Dorothy Requiem is another one of my favorite pieces. I've done the for a requiem a number of times also one of my my favorites. I've tried to get my try to get my wife to sign a piece of papers to tell me that you know that it should be sung at my funeral. Very carefully choose the soloist. Pas who is just a challenge, you know, first of all first soprano that's a hard question but I don't know if I answered it fully. I also love those you know those small tacos, you know, those Renaissance music. choral music to me is just it's a ethereal I love the big British stuff, the whole host of Vaughan Williams. And again, it's it's it's sort of what what I mean at the moment. Oddly, Mozart, the Mozart Requiem is not one of my faves because it's not really Meltzer except for bits of it. I've done it I've enjoyed doing it. But it's not something that I would really doesn't have the same spot in my in my being as some of the French correlate works. symphonic li DeVore Jack but I also like to conduct contemporary music too. And I find that to be interesting. I love playing contemporary music and for that very reason is that at least the way I work is I look big first and then realize oh my god, how am I gonna redo this and then I go back and just sort of take things in small chunks. And with contemporary music there's there's no preconceived motion to fall on. You know, you can't go to a recording you can't go to you can't read about it. Especially if it's brand new. I played there's a in Hartford Connecticut there was there's a festival every November this first time I did it. It's called New New in November and they basically put on one act operas, chamber operas written for piano five or six of them in a setting and so I played one of them and it was fast it was it was based on the American young American composer from Austin, Texas, based on the Pulse nightclub shooting in Florida. Very powerful and just so much fun at practice and dig into it, you know, this is trying to get and then once you finally get together with the other artists, it just it just it's like magic and so I really that I really enjoy something that has not been done before that I have to trust my own guile and research Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you actually, because I know as, you know, doing choral music, it's sort of up to the conductor to interpret it and to present it in the way that they see fit the way that they you know, the tempo, like there's always the guide to what to do. But someone might put a pause somewhere else for dramatic effect, or, you know, there's, there's room for your own added nuances, I guess. Is that something that you find exciting or daunting, then if you know, someone else has done it? Is it hard to put out of your mind? They didn't like that. But I wanted to do it like this? Or did? Does that make sense? No, it makes great, it's a great question. For one, I'm a bit I'm a bit of a traditionalist, if it's not in the score, I am not going to muck around with the score much unless the big unless is, what can the group in front of me do? I am not a big believer on having this massive conceived idea of a work that they can't accomplish. So if it's a professional group, that's one thing, but if it's an amateur group, or it's a school group, or it's a church group, then what I do, I try to look at what the score demands in terms of sound. And if they can't do it with perhaps the way that somebody else might do it, like speed, I'll do it with articulation to create that same effect. But to me, it makes no sense to try to, to push a group to do something that you have, you know, basically an academic scholastic idea of what it should sound like, and they can't do it. Yeah, what's the sense? So, in terms of freely interpreting, I like to feel like I have some say on that. But mostly, my say on that, especially if it's a choral work has to do with punctuation, breathing, text issues, there's some composers who are very demanding in what they write, and there's others that have their own, like Vaughn Williams, or one I mean, he's, his, his writing has to sort of be interpreted because it's not, it doesn't really make any sense if you do exactly what he says. And I suspect it's because of the acoustic that he was writing for. That it was in a church and a very live acoustic. So sometimes things like the final ends of notes or phrases are kind of, you know, he puts a a quarter note with an eighth note that's tied to it, and a dot underneath that, which to me says, Get rid of the time, especially if you're in a dry acoustic. Yeah, yeah. So but I have a, I have a story that I I did the, the Verdi Requiem in Romania, about four years ago, four years ago. And quiet was quite good. soloists, we're all we're all professional, but you know, like most of these kinds of places, they're all sort of stuck, because you're not there for a long period of time. You basically float into the city, have a couple of piano rehearsals, a dress, you know, you meet the orchestra and then bang, off you go. So there's no time for me to pontificate I want I want there's a spot at the end of the very Requiem, where it is this huge crescendo and then it comes to subido piano. basically impossible to do with the way he wrote it. And it's in the middle of a word. So I scoured various recordings. And one of the recordings I got, which was a composer I conducted that was very influential in my, in my view of conducting was Robert Shaw. And I'm doing amazing pretty regularly. He actually took a little bit of a loose breath before that piano, the whole thing. And then the subido piano, perfect. So I thought it was good for Robert Shaw, if you could for me, right. Nan Romania gave me an issue with it. She said. And I said, Well, you can you make this with the piano without and it turned into this fight. So in the end, okay, it wasn't a subido piano wasn't a piano. But it wasn't worth fighting, because it just wasn't, you know. And so sometimes, you know, I think I probably if I had more time, I probably would have insisted, but my Romanian is not very good. English and I don't think she spoke English very well anyway. But that's the thing like you, you, you're challenging cultural norms that, and it's hard to break down those barriers or even question those barriers, certainly with a limited timeframe. But even at all, I guess, you know, there's 1000s of years of history, and that's what they do. And also, it's also what the what the norm is, in that particular region. Yeah. Right. So, to go back to the very Requiem, I did have an extensive choral rehearsal. To few be subject to a few areas in a very right way. And, you know, being sort of a pianist, and organist, a Bach lover, I mean, I have a certain set way about views. And they sang both views. Like, that was almost anathema to me, you know, you couldn't hear subjects, it just was like this big mush and wash of sound. And my first thought was, okay, so how far I'm gonna go with this? I tried. They were terrific. They were so receptive. Actually, those two choruses were the best things in the entire performance. Because I, they allowed me to break the paradigm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when they actually did it, it was just awesome. You know, so clean it was you could hear every entrance and everything was shaded, and, and they were a good choir to begin with. But that's the difference. And then they were the soprano was not used to that she was used to getting whatever she wanted. And so when she got it what you want, and so I think that the score, it's not a museum piece, you know, it's a guide. And if you have enough, I don't think you should sway far so far from the score that it deviates from what the composer intended. Because that I don't think is right. Yeah. So no, but to use the score, and then also to use your understanding and knowledge of what the pair the practice of the time was, what the idiosyncrasies of that particular composer was, if you know them, if it's a brand new thing, then you know, then you're going on, you're going on guesswork, sometimes you're lucky enough to have a composer there. And that's, that's a long winded way of answering your question about, you know, how do you how do you sort of attack a score like that, but I find it really daunting, but yet fascinating to get like a clean score and thinking, okay. Where are we going from here? Yeah, no, thanks. I appreciate that. But I'm throwing some questions that you that you haven't had any morning over. So I appreciate that. I'm a former teacher, I can dish it. Be surprising some of the questions would. No, I love that. Yeah, actually talking about contemporary composers. I had a guest on my show a few weeks ago, Dr. Erica ball, I'm not sure if you've come across her work. She's based in the United States. And she is on this mission, I guess to because she teaches piano and violin as well, to teach her students that they can play music by people that are alive still. That's her thing that it's like women and people that are still alive. And then like, some of his students don't even realize that people are still writing classical music. They think it's all stuff by, you know, people who died hundreds of years ago. So that was a really fun conversation. That's changing here. Mentally, yeah. And I think it's because composers are promoting their music better. I think festivals are promoting the music. And one of the one of the exciting things that I thought that happened during the pandemic here was, you know, because we were all, you know, sitting in front of our screens at home, it allowed us to sort of take some steps back and do a little research. And I was involved with a mezzo soprano friend of mine who wanted to put out a weekly A video of songs written by women composers who were not necessarily household names. And it was fast because we both researched this together. We rehearsed it using, you know, this thing here, which had its had its moments. But the fact that we, you know, we we did that I was, although I knew some names I some of the music is just a why is this buried? Why is nobody playing this? Yeah, yeah. And it's happening here. There's, there's concerts now. A great deal of concerts by African American female composer Florence Price, who wrote a tremendous that was an amazing pianist. Were big groups, symphonic groups. choral groups are starting to really dig in and not look at the same stuff that we've been playing for 300 year. That although some people do advocate that, I think that bringing this no music by living composers into the canon of what we do, is going to sustain classical music and not make it look like just some relic museum piece. Yeah, that is so true. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, because it's like, it will just stay as something that doesn't evolve, it doesn't change, it isn't challenged. And eventually, it'll just, I don't know, might even get lost somewhere because it hasn't evolved. And I don't I, I think it's awesome. It's really, really good to keep it relevant as well for new audiences. And because I think this conversation I had with with Erica was that there is a portion of the audience that desperately wants to hear a song that they know, and they recognize that there's also the people that want to challenge that. So it's also that that generational shift, you know, that that will challenge your whole Hispanic that's been going on for a long time. You know, and you mostly see it in, in orchestras, where they know that their donors, their big donors want to hear Mahler and Beethoven, Brahms, and will not will not stomach in certain places, certain cities are different, but it will not stomach an entire evening of something that they don't recognize or can't understand. Yep. So in the past, orchestras have sort of mixed the program a little bit, you know, they give the castor oil on the sugar. But that's also changing, you know, where, and they've been very smart about it, and using sometimes contemporary living composers who actually show up to these concerts, give a lecture on it. Explain it, because I think some some of that is education. Yeah. But I, it's starting to starting to veer off into the choral world and starting to veer off into the opera world. And I just in some ways, I had a conversation with a friend, we were talking about the pandemic, because let's face it, we all talked about pandemic, how they will would have been no Renaissance, if it wasn't for the Black Death. You know, I mean, the Black Death, the Renaissance was, was a direct cause of coming out of the Black Death as the, the, the pandemic of 1918, the roaring 20s was a direct cause of coming out of that in the First World War. And I maybe I'm an optimist. I am, too. But I think there's going to be a second renaissance in the arts for sure. Because, like you say, they've taken such a hit, and so they can't go back to the same way things were done before. Yeah, I would agree with that. I hope and I hope that that it challenges the norms. of all cultures, but my own I really hope because the thing that frustrates me is that creators and artists make everything that you consume, you know, you wouldn't be able to sit at home and watching Netflix during the pandemic, if somebody hadn't come up with the story and the actors, you know, everybody that goes into making that stuff and everything you touch and like everything has been created by someone and made by someone who designed by someone, but we just seem to take it for granted. I suppose. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. Then I Yeah, yeah. Until it was denied. And yes, yeah, we could argue for granted until they shut theaters down until they shut everything else down. And you had you had a search for it someplace else. And some of the arts organizations were smart enough. My follow up and for one is that then they started releasing all of their HD videos for free. Yeah, right, every week, you know. And, again, thinking of the longer the longer game, and a longer game is to, is to keep this thing going. Yeah, and perhaps not being precious about, you know, like that, that maybe giving up some income, maybe things used to have to be paid for in that way. But just because we've always done things a certain way, that doesn't mean we have to keep doing them a certain way, if we want to evolve and remain relevant and, you know, reach these audiences that are basically a candid audience. They're not doing anything else. So we pump them full of this stuff. And then they love it. And then they when they come out, they want to consume it even more. I, I, we went to the opera. In September, the Mecca opened back, you know, opened back up again. And this, they decided to open their season with a new opera. And it was written by the book was written by a columnist for the New York Times, fire shut up in my bones. If you ever have an opportunity to see the HD video, that is amazing. But the thing that was really amazing is that when this show opened, and as I said, it opened the season, which is unheard of. It was packed. And the audience was unlike any audience I've ever seen at any classical concert, anywhere. In the world, it was just like, first of all, it was an it was an event. And the age differential was huge. The the social makeup was huge. And I've seen, I saw people that I've never thought I would see at the Metropolitan Opera and a place went and it was, besides the fact that it was an amazing performance. But I thought they were going to rip down the house at the end. It was just was incredible. And that shook me. It's because when a staid institution, like the Metropolitan Opera can have the guts to say things are different. We're going to change a little bit of a the conversation here, I think there's no reason why not everyone else can also do. Yeah, that's incredible. Isn't it? Like the risk that they would take doing that, but the payoff has so many sort of flow on effects, not just for them, but for the how the culture of opera is now. You know, changing? Yeah. Incredible. The entire company, the entire production team, what's African America? Yeah. Yeah. And the dancing on stage was something that was unlike anything you would have ever seen on the Met stage. And it was just amazing. The band, the orchestra was actually a full symphony orchestra with a band in the middle of it. Playing and the music also had jazz elements, you know, symphonic elements, all sorts of just a hodgepodge of great, great stuff. I just hope they do more. Never was more of a Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I sort of feel like ballet is really good at pushing the boundaries. I know the the Australian ballet here. You know, they've they've got to get the they get the balance right from the the shows that people want to say the sleeping beauties in the swan lakes and the nutcrackers. But then they get and they've been doing this for many years, getting the people we're gonna get people from Europe over to showcase to contemporary works and to push the boundaries of what people think ballet is. And I think I feel like ballet is really good at doing that. And yeah, the I think dancers always been really good at that. Because the music is except for those those chestnuts. The music can be anything you want it to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the style could be anything you really you really want it to be there's you're not really. I mean, the people have tried to pry loose a little bit of, you know, our conceived notions of what Nutcracker and Swan Lake should look like. But for the most part, if you do a contemporary thing, you're not under any constraints to do anything except what that work demands. Yes, they I think they've been good with that. And I think belly audiences are much more receptive To that, even though, you know, I frankly used to hate going to the ballet we call them the white glove crowd here. And so you'd sit in the audience and all of a sudden they take out these little bond bonds with the rappers it's like the most sublime piece of music and the oh here. And it would take forever for that thing to get in that woman's mouth. And it was just like, irregardless of what was going on. Yeah, just so I was never a great fan of the audiences of our ballets but for sure. We have this concept of mum guilt that I talked to my guests about and I love I love to eat sounds bad rice, I love talking to people about their guilt. But I find it really fascinating because everybody has different experiences, everyone might deal with it differently. Some people don't feel it, some people feel it a lot. And I like to when I get the chance to talk about how men feel about that. Because your say your a man's role generally is perceived as different to the woman. So it is expected that you might you know, you leave the home and do what you got to do and that sort of thing. Do you? What's your take on? I guess? I don't want to call it dad guilt because I don't. I don't even like calling it mum guilt. But I call it that just for the hashtag mum guilt, you know? What's your thoughts about all that sort of stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean by it. Okay. So the way that we talk about mum guilt is that when your mom, you're supposed to do stuff for the children. And then if you do something for yourself, you should feel guilty about that. Or if you don't meet the norms of what society deems as being an I'll put in air quotes, again, a good mother, you should feel guilty for that. An example that I can give you is a guest I had on the show, went out one night to watch a classical music performance. And she was there with their friends. And one of the people she met said, Oh, it's such a shame you're missing bedtime. You know, it's good that you could come tonight, but you're missing putting the kids to bed and she's like, why is that a question? Why are you asking me about bedtime? I shouldn't say this to the person. But you know, my child has two parents that my husband is quite capable of putting the children to bed. And I'm quite capable of leaving the house and doing certainly for myself. It does. I guess I can and I probably shouldn't answer for my wife. But I but you know, certainly when we've been out and I have to admit that we did not go out much without them. Okay, that was our choice. We took them to everything, including restaurants. And some of it was because we just liked being around them. And I don't think it was guilt. I just think you know, I could probably count on one hand. Firstly, babysitters rarely had a babysitter. Now, when one of us had to do something or went out? I would say that maybe Celia would feel a little, you know, like a little bit. I shouldn't be home. But I'm sure it passed fast. Especially knowing that I was there. Yeah. If I wasn't there, then I would have been a different story. If it we were both out someplace for sure. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Guilt is a strong word. You know, I might think about you know, where I what I was doing. And I have to say I'm not I wasn't the kind of guy when the girls were young that Did you know like went out with the boys and that kind of stuff. I didn't do that at all. I had no intention to do that. I'm perfectly fine staying home with the girls. But you know, I might think oh, okay, we'd be having dinner right now or the, you know, shower time in the bath time. Yeah. But I wouldn't call it good. Yeah, you know, might as you said, you know, like our, the generation of our parents, they had to give up stuff. And I'm sure that, you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father who was in a restaurant business without every night working, and come home till two, three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them, you know? But, you know, I almost I must wonder about that. And it just, it's sort of a foreign thing. I understand why people might think that it I, it's hard for me to kind of think, put myself in there. Because, for one, we took them everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, we, the first time they went to Europe, to see my family, and she's been other places. One of them was five years old, four years old. You know, like, I mean, those kids went when traveling more than most. We went to restaurants. And so they were very, very early age. And we just, we wanted, we love being around each other. And it wasn't like to be with her mom or sisters. I'm sure maybe she felt a little, but I'm sure it passed quickly when she was with her sisters or whoever. And I never felt that, you know, I mean, I I was out a lot. You know, I was a church musician. So I never felt that. Unless I was out for an extended period of time. Like when I would do summers in Rome. I was five, five weeks, six weeks. Yeah, I did. For sure. I did. Because I knew all of it fell in unseal you know, and I wasn't there to sort of pick up the slack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for answering that. I know. It's, I feel, no, it's something that fascinates me. But again, I, I want to be respectful when I ask people about things like that, because, you know, it's a bit of a, you're asking people to tell, you know, really private things about themselves. So appreciate you indulging me. Well, I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because I think people who, who will listen to this should think there's, this is these are questions that, you know, are there and other people have coped with this before, and are coping with it now. It's not like a new thing. It's not. And, you know, like, with anything else, we, you know, like your, your story about feeling bad, because she's, you know, missing mum time. I mean, that that's something you put on yourself. That's not, that's not you create, you can create your own thing. You know, and I think in this in this age that we're in now, people respect when you create your own thing, and you're and you're strict with it, perhaps 40 years ago, no, you know, that question whether you are a good mother, if you were out, you know, but that, to me seems something that is more someone someone's demanding of themselves rather than it's coming from outside? Yeah, I think I feel like social media has had this impact of, of showing us so many different elements of people's lives, that allows us to compare elements of our own lives with them. But I think what we have to remember is that what people place on social media is very curated, and they're generally only showing the best bits. And so it's like, the advent of social media has allowed more comparison. And I think allowed more people to question themselves. I don't know, am I doing it right? Or what are people going to think if I do this, or, you know, whereas I think sometimes it's better just to do what works for your family and in stay really insular in your thoughts and not think about what's happening. You know, the last I checked, there was no manual. There's no degree on any of this. And, and there's no one way, you know, and so I, you know, we I think we all come into this thing with, obviously, what we were brought up with, knowing what worked and what didn't work, or what we want to imitate and what we certainly don't want to imitate. And then we go from there. And it's a partnership for one. It's not just one person deciding that. I know some families where it is all only one person and frankly, they're dysfunctional. And so, in some sense, you know, like to me bringing up children and also create a household idea is it's creative because it is based on the on the two of you. And it's also based on what, you know, your children's needs, etc. And there's no one way. I don't think there is no. Oh, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. definitely agree with that. If you've got anything, any projects coming up or anything you want to share about it might have in the works or anything at all? Really? Yeah. It's a little slow for me getting back right now. Because the some of the things that I was involved with, are taking your time coming back. I've been I'm playing more, which is good. The conducting is coming a little slow. Right now, I was supposed to do conduct on Giovanni in Romania before this pandemic hit. And so I'm kind of like in a in a negotiation, trying to get that either in June or possibly in September. But I don't have any pressing things at the moment. In some ways, that's good. Well, my oldest daughter is getting married in October. And so that is pressing. It's pretty important. That is pressing. But in terms of artistic stuff. I don't I don't I don't think so. I am revisiting Don Giovanni, just in case I do call to do that in June, because it's a pretty big, pretty big work. I'd like to get that off on my back and off my off the table. But that's, yeah, I mean, that's, as of right now. My, my modus operandi is the, you know, when when the things come in, jump on them. I have no real plans. You know, I hope that some of the smaller theaters that I was working in, will start coming out, you know, the problem is, is that they were unwilling to commit to performance venues, because they weren't sure they're going to get closed again. Yeah. And, you know, the beauty is living an hour outside of New York, but also the problem is, is I'm an hour outside of New York. And so anybody in New York can gobble up whatever it is very quickly. Yeah. So but that's okay. You know, I stuff, things will come back, and perhaps things will come back that where I can go back picking and choosing what I want. I'm done with just grabbing anything that comes along, no matter how miserable it is. Yeah. Yeah, you can do it because you want to do it and you're passionate about it. Yeah, it's nice to take a step back a little bit, actually. And you know, to think a little bit more about all this and study a little bit more about all this and and then we'll see. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for being a part of this special Father's Day episode. I'm very, very grateful for your time and for your candor, and your honesty, and I've really enjoyed our chat. Thank you, John. I enjoyed our tattoos. It was fun, and good luck to you and keep singing. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Rachel Larsen Weaver US photographer + artist-educator S2 Ep69 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) Rachel Larsen Weaver is an artist-educator and photographer joyfully living on the Maryland beaches of the Chesapeake Bay as a mother to five. Rachel enjoyed writing as a child and she has always been a reader. Rachel studied an Masters of Fine Arts in Creative Writing in College, creative non fiction and writing personal essays was her passion. She spent 10 years as a teacher and in her current life calls back to this in her mentoring roles. When her 3rd son was born, she wanted to start a blog, and in an effort to provide good quality pictures - she bought a camera - and her passion for photography was ignited. She was inspired to improve the quality of her photos and soon she was approached to take photos for others. She delved into studying photography as an artform and heavily invested herself in researching photography, seeking mentors and improving her knowledge. Her style of photography is reflective, deeply embedded in story telling and through her Long Form Sessions where she spends days with her clients in their homes, she is finding the joy in the hidden and messy places. She's about helping others see the beauty in themselves, the days, families, and worlds they create - and the homes that hold them. Her firm belief is that self-love and self celebration are not reserved for the thin, white, young, able bodied, cis-gendered female. She creates environments for people to be seen and to be heard. Rachel is so passionate about sharing every body and leads by example with her own self portrait projects. She has worked hard on self acceptance and encourages others to do the same through her Finding Myself in Portraits project. Her portfolio and practice is fat-affirming, mindful and genuine, focusing on the life and light of her clients. Rachel travels the country documenting mothers, bodies and details. Rachel’s unique ability to call people home to themselves, their bodies, their passions and their worlds is precisely the gift made manifest in her photo work. By grounding into presence and remaining stubborn in her commitment to joy, Rachel brings a clear sense of purpose (and humour) to her life and her work with clients. Connect with Rachel website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website / Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest today is Rachel Lassen Weaver. Rachel is a photographer, and an artist educator living on the Maryland beaches of the Chesapeake Bay in the United States, and she's a mother to five children. Rachel enjoyed writing as a child, and she was always a reader. She studied a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing in college, creative nonfiction, and writing personal essays was her passion. She spent 10 years as a teacher, and in her current life calls back to these in her mentoring roles. When her third son was born, Rachel wanted to start a blog. And in an effort to provide good quality pictures, she bought a camera and her passion for photography was ignited. She was inspired to improve the quality of her photos, and soon she was approached to take photos for others. Rachel delved into studying photography as an art form, and heavily invested herself in researching photography, seeking mentors and improving her knowledge. Her style of photography is reflective, deeply embedded in storytelling, and through her long form sessions, where she spends days with her clients in their homes. She is finding the joy in the hidden and messy places. She is about helping others see the beauty in themselves, the days families and worlds they create and the homes that hold them. Her firm belief is that self love and self celebration are not reserved for thin, white, young, able bodied, cisgendered female, she creates environments for people should be seen and to be heard. Rachel is so passionate about sharing every body and leads by example, with her own self portrait projects. She has worked hard on self acceptance and encourages others to do the same. Through her finding myself in portraits project. Her portfolio and practice is fat affirming, mindful and genuine, focusing on the life and life of her clients. Rachel travels the country documenting mother's bodies and details. Her unique ability to call people home to themselves, their bodies and their passions and their worlds is precisely the gift made manifest in her photo work. By grounding into presence and remaining stubborn in her commitment to joy. Rachael brings a clear sense of purpose and humor to her life and her work with clients. The music you'll hear today is from my ambient new age music trio called LM Joe made up of myself, my sister Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Rachel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's lovely to meet you. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me, Allison. Yeah, you're in Maryland, Maryland. Good job. Yeah. Yeah, we say Maryland, Maryland. Yeah. Whereabouts is that sorry, forgive me. My geography is not great. It's on the east coast of you of the US. It's the state that Washington DC the Capitol got chopped out of? Basically Washington DC, is in Maryland's region. Yeah. Okay. Then I know. I know what you mean. Now? What happened there? Why did they do that? So I was like, kind of Central Coast when it was the 13 colonies. And originally for Virginia had given Pete a piece too, because that's the state right below us. And it was a perfect square. But then Virginia took back their peace, I think during the Civil War when they joined the Confederacy, so now it's just like, the peace out of Maryland. That's funny, isn't it? Hmm. When when I read that you're on Chesapeake Bay, which is really cool, because I've been we were massive fans of the Hamilton musical. And there's a bit with the Chesapeake Bay. It's like anyone? Shout out. Excellent. What time is it? What day is it for you Tuesday? It's Tuesday and it's 10am. Yep. So beautiful. Where it? What is it for you there? It's 7:30pm. Monday on Monday. Yeah, cool. Okay. That's one of the things I love about doing this is just like, I used to have a lot of pen pals when I was a kid. And I was always fascinated by what the weather was, like, where they lived and what time it was, you know, all that sort of stuff. I love. I love it. It's so cool. We're both at like transitional seasons right now. Right? Going into spring. So it feels like we're extreme. Yeah. So we're halfway, like springs officially started. But we're we're going to start summer, next month. So we're like, it almost feels like it's going back to autumn. Now. It's really weird. The mornings are really cold. But then the sun comes out and it's beautiful. Then Then it starts raining. It's like it's wearing a mishmash of everything right now is bizarre. What part of Australia are you? So I mean, Matt Gambia, which is right down the bottom. In South Australia. It's almost like there's a border between South Australia and Victoria. And I'm about 10 minutes from that two minutes drive. Right, almost almost at the coast, probably half an hour from the coast. So yeah, it's an interesting place because we get a lot of like the weather comes across, like the Tet the Tasman Strait is like freezing cold. So we get all that weird weather. But then sometimes in summer we get the northerly winds. And it's boiling hot, like 40 degrees Celsius. I don't sorry, I don't know what that is in. You're really hot. I know. Like, yeah, and we'll have days of that on end. But then it will just go back to like, I don't know, it's really weird. Really weird. You have more seasons that Northern Australia. Yeah, we're really distinct. Like out there. They have like a wet season or dry season pretty much they I don't think they dispense with the traditional, you know, summer or winter, spring or fall. You call it fall over? Yeah. We call it either. It's allowed. It's actually cool watching all these physical fall a lot of people from America and it's like it's sweater weather. No, this was a good American accent there too. I love it. Everyone's getting like the pumpkin spice lattes and Oh, God love so you're a photographer. Can you share with us what you do? How you got into it? Tell us all about what you do. So originally my like, creative medium. What I studied in college, and when I started my MFA, do you have to ask isn't that translates right? Yeah, yes, it does. Yes, was in was in creative writing. And so writing was really my focus, creative nonfiction in particular, like writing personal essays. But when my third son was born, I wanted to start a blog. I like felt like it was the time where everybody had a blog, blog, too. And if you have a blog, you need pictures that nobody's gonna read your blog. So I bought a camera, really just so that I could have pictures for my blog. And because the writing was the part I was more excited about. And it's sort of, then I wanted my pictures for the blog to be better. And then people started around me started asking like, Well, can you take my family pictures or, you know, friends that were having low key weddings, that, that all the sudden photography was a bigger thing. As soon as people started to want to pay me, I felt an obligation to like, get good at it. And I'm just like, if somebody wants me to do this, I want to and I really dug into studying photography, as an art form. Like I feel very dedicated to photography. I spend a lot of time and money buying monographs. I love to have books of photographers work. I spent a lot of time studying that I try to go to exhibits as often as I can. Knowing kind of the history of it and who the the founding folks that have built something like that's a lot of my energy and I like to look into it because I think it kind of helps keep you from Instagram trends are, especially since photography is so easily shareable and it's easy. I feel like it's kind of easy to fall into thinking of it as a social media content, creative thing. And that's not how I see it, I want to make an image that does not just exist for social media. And I feel like it gives a lot of legitimacy to it. Because you understand that you're like, it's like someone studying the, you know, their art form. Like if they paint a particular way they study all the greats from that style, or whatever, you know, you're really invested in him. And he's in he said, monetary wise, too. But you know, you're, you're really into it, you're not just like, click, click, click, put on Instagram, you know, hashtag, whatever. It's a real, it's a real passion. And I can, like, nerd out so hard, I like, do like, I love books, I love studying. And so I wouldn't be a student for the rest of my life, if I could figure out a way to afford to do that. So I really do feel like a student of photography at this stage. And it really, I think, does help to create things that feel be, like I said, beyond what is of this moment, one of the things that I really think, studying that other work, when I'm just looking at social media as my inspiration, the things that do well, on a really small screen that you're kind of passing by quickly, aren't the same images that I want to return to again, and again, when public, like when I'm looking at larger in a book, and so it helps kind of realign me to my purpose to be looking at the thing that I'm trying to create, rather than the thing that's easy to consume. Yes, yeah. It's interesting, I saw, it's just reminded me of something I saw the other day, someone who I'm not going to remember what it was. But it was literally about that. The popularity of Instagram, yeah, we can forget what's driving us because we get the likes and the comments or whatever. And that, you know, our dopamine brain goes, Oh, that's exciting. Everyone likes me. But then, as you said, like, this is not going to be an era that lasts forever, you know, this, this will be a little blip on the radar. And already people are getting back to printing. You know, there's a photographer I know, here, Matt Gambia, who gets all her field, things printed on films, like she's got a film camera. Now she's going back to the olden days, olden days, everything I do everything on film. Yeah. And it's wonderful, you know, and same thing that people getting back to records, you know, that physical, we're sort of like rejecting this mass consumption of instant stuff. And we're going back to the important thing. So I think you're right, not just, you know, focusing on what's popular now. But the things that have stood the test of time, and, you know, will stand the test of time, the things that you're creating now, that's what I want to use as kind of my measuring tool. You know, I can't I can't be like, I mean, how many people do you know that are on Instagram right now that are like, so frustrated with that it wasn't what it used to be. And, and so I feel like it doesn't frustrate me deeply, because I don't feel a huge attachment, like pretty active user of it. And I like it, and I but it isn't the end all be all for me. And so I can kind of have a certain like, you know, casualness with it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yep. And that said something else that reminds me, so I'll do this a lot. Things will remind me and I'll go. And then I'll probably cut it out later, because I realized that I'm just rambling. But yeah, somebody somebody posted recently, they were leaving Instagram, because they weren't happy with one that somebody else actually owned their content. You know, we don't own what we put on Instagram, they could disappear at any moment. And to obviously, now with the changes in algorithm, they're controlling what people see. So they will like, come and join my email list, you know, come to my website, getting people back to that, you know, I used to work at a plant nursery, and we used to when people would come past the tool, and you'd say, Oh, would you like to join our email list? You know, the old the old thing of writing down your email, and it seems so pointless and dorky, but like that's what people are getting back to now, you know, this is motivation. I send them Monday night newsletter, it will go. It's funny. We're recording Monday night, my time. It'll go out and a half an hour. It's become my biggest driver of business. It feels like my biggest creative outlet. Like I'm mostly excited about people coming to Instagram so that I can get them to my newsletter, because it was sort of like my first love to it gives me a space to do that. I can share the images that I want without censorship. It feels like a different investment to the people who like choose to read that newsletter that they open it up on Monday night, it feels like a ritual for some people. Or maybe I'm just that I'm like, giving you this thing. And I'm like, Cool, Rachel. But I think too, like, that's your intention behind it, you know, it's not something that you can just scroll on, you know, it's a thing that is a special thing that people have chosen to be a part of, and that's thing you want them to appreciate? This is your this is your special way reaching out, you know? Yeah, and that's really, I think, part li having that does make me feel a little less freaked out by the algorithm. You know what I mean? Where I'm like, Okay, it's gonna be all right, the people, because the people who were most interested in working with me, they've already, they're already over there, they're following, they're keeping in touch with me. And I think we underestimate us. I mean, I know some are artists or less in like, the direct marketing, maybe that so many, like, portrait photographers, we use Instagram, to get business maybe in a way that's different than some of your guests like when you have musicians and authors, it can be kind of a different relationship. So I'd like to go back to this beginning for you with the writing, were you always into writing as a kid growing up? Yeah, that's probably the thing that I, it's probably the career I most often returned to. I mean, I've wanted to be so many things throughout the course of my life. But I think writing frequently was the thing that I returned to is something that I loved. Of all always been a reader. I've always been a writer. But it was interesting to me because as I said, creative nonfiction was my, my main genre. And I feel like it makes the transition into the type of photography that I create feels sort of in that same in that same genre that I want to, you know, there are so many conceptual photographers that I really love, that I kind of like when they're kind of playing with surrealism, or, you know what I mean that they're, they're doing things that are kind of abstract, or they're doing things that feel like deeply creative. And they love it, and I'm inspired by it. But that isn't the thing that I seek to create, I think back on, on one of my creative writing professors, which sort of adorably My oldest is in college right now. And she has this professor who was like, my favorite professor, because she's going to the same university. And it's his last semester teaching anyhow, that's brilliant. And, yeah. And one of the things he had said about creative nonfiction was, you can write in any detail that you need to in your piece, and it doesn't have to be true. Like, you don't have to remember what they were wearing. As long as it could be true. You know, what I mean? Like, what is the thing that Allison might wouldn't be wearing? Or would be eating or? And so I think about that a lot. When I'm taking pictures, it's not that I'm pure documentary. I don't mind moving the situation, or changing it. But I still want it to feel in the realm of, could that be true? It's not like true for a mom to be like, hanging around naked in her kitchen with her children. Where I like, see lots of like, kind of beautiful, and like, I don't want to make that picture. Like I don't you know what I mean? Like, but if you are a lady that, like, hang around in your undies in your, you know, big T shirt, then that is interesting to me. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So anyhow, that's sort of like, I see how that writing background, how the how the details that I was most interested in like that, that that's then what I become interested in, in pictures. I feel like there's a real overlap between the writing I liked and the photographs I like and try to make. Yeah, that is so interesting. So would you describe your style of photography as documentary style? Or what's the best way to describe it? For a person who loves words I hate tried to figure though word is for it. Because I know it's not pure documentary because I feel like I am fine with adjusting the thing. Like, I often think about Sally Mann, who is one of my, you know, favorite photographers that I look up to, there's a picture where she has a bite mark on her arm, and it's called Jessie bites. And her son was Jessie. But she bit herself for that photo was in a biting phase, apparently, but then like she wanted to make the image. But she was like, this could be true, but it's not. So anyhow. So documentary feels like there's sort of a commitment to you don't alter the situation. And I'm not afraid to alter it so that it can in the period of time that we need to tell the truth that we need it to. But it's not lifestyle photography. It's not portrait photography yet. So it's kind of a mix between conceptual and documentary. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, that I mean, it couldn't be. Because if we think of the concept of speed, how much truth can we try to tell as fast as we can? I mean, which is funny that I say as fast as we can, because I, my preferred way to shoot is long form sessions, which are 24 Hour Photo experiences, where I like come into somebody's home, and I stay with them for a full 24 hours. Oh, wow. Yeah. So even when I say you're still trying to tell a whole family of a story, or a whole story of the family, even their 24 hours is so much longer. There's still so much story to tell. Yet, it's still a short period of time in the game. There's that part of me that keeps thinking like, How long could I make these go? Because I wish I had a week sometimes, you know what I mean? Like to make a body of work that feels like, oh, this could be its own book. This could be its own show, like how could this family you know, to show the nuances of it in the different relationships and how they shift in and out. That's sort of my fantasy. Wow, I this is groundbreaking. You're the first person I've spoken to, or first person I've heard of that does this this is amazing. Like to spend that amount of time I love it. No. Yeah. Because you really get to like, you know, I, I sleep in their house, I eat their meals with them. I wake up with them. I go, and because I say it's at least 24 hours sometimes because I'm flying places. We're driving like this weekend, I'll be driving down the coast. So you know, I'll spend Friday night with them shoot all day Saturday and then go home on Sunday. You really like you're seeing what know how the sausage is made? That's an expression that you use in Australia. Oh, yeah. You don't I mean, like you're in there. And I love it. It's like, voyeurism at its best. It's so exciting. I like fascinating. Yeah, it's a it's also interesting, sort of the backstory on it about a year and a half ago. Like so many photographers. I like needed to make a buck, as we often do. And I was offering, like, motherhood mini sessions, and I had a friend who was on the other side of the country who had done it so beautifully and pulled it off. And I was like, Yeah, was it okay, I'm just gonna like copy. And it flopped, like, not do very well. And I had that moment of like, oh, I don't think that this is what people want from me. I don't make portraits quickly. You know, even the way I was normally running sessions, I had a realization like, I think people want longer, not less time. I think people want to really get to show what's going on that we want to be validated in the work that we're doing in the in the thick of it. So I like got my act together. And I started long form sessions, and I booked more long form sessions that were like, nearly 10 times the price of a mini session, I booked more long form sessions that I had many sessions. Yeah, that's the thing that people wants what they want. Yeah. And it was different than what other people were offering. Yeah, yeah. But isn't that interesting, though, that it's like, when you stay true to yourself, like that authentic openness? And I'm not, you know, I'm not being rude to you at all, because I think we all do it. And I certainly know I've done it with this podcast. You see how someone does it and you think, Oh, that looks good. I'll do that. Yeah. And it was probably great that it flopped because it went well. Hang on. So grateful. That's not me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, it was and I think It's just the reminder, especially for like creative entrepreneurs, that we try a thing. And like, the next thing that could be super wildly successful for you can just be around the corner. And the more that we lean into the piece that we're really good at the part that feels the most aligned with the work that we're supposed to be making. But, you know, it's a little bit hard sometimes to like, brush off your bruised ego when you're like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Seems to be doing this so well. And I tried it and no, like, I had a real moment, like that dark night where you're like, I just was like, oh, yeah, he's question everything, don't you? Yeah. I'm so glad you got going. Yeah, you know, because I had, I mean, the big thing was, my oldest daughter was about to go to college, and I needed to make more money than I had been making. So I thought many sessions might provide that. And it didn't. So you, but this has been the end. So creatively fulfilling, it is the work that I want to be making, it's in the speed, one of the things about because I do shoot completely film, I can't, like film needs more light than digital photography. In low light situations, I can't be shooting very easily, like, I can do a flash, but that kind of, yeah, just the nature of it, you know. So it's not like 24 hours of a camera in your face, you know, in ebbs and flows, and that it'll be like, let's do this thing. And then it kind of settles back down. Maybe the babies are taking a nap or whatever. And then like, you kind of have the desire to like make kind of bubbles back up, like you do, like, you know what I mean? It kind of feels like almost three sessions over the course of the day, with some clicking in between. But I don't know the flow of it is so perfect, deeply exciting to me. Yeah, I just love it. This is an awesome thing I've never heard before. And I'm so like, I feel like energized. I don't know, if anybody in Australia does this cube, please get in touch with me. Sounds amazing. So when you're in people's homes, like you say how you know that it sort of ebbs and flows. You spending a lot of time watching these people, you know, that must be a passion for you to I don't want to say analyze people, but you know, you're picking up the nuances. You're saying, you know, and your focus is on, you know, the mothering role. Yeah. Is that part of it interesting to to sort of the dynamics and how people interacting? Absolutely. I mean, and maybe that's like a little bit the writer in me too, that I'm like, like to listen to the stories that I, I don't know, I feel like my friends and my family at this point. They like hearing about sort of the adventures of it. And there's no like, it's not not a priest or doctor or lawyer to tell your business to my husband once I'm done. No confidentiality agreement. But I will say I am not a fly on the wall, sort of. That's the other thing that makes me feel like not a documentary photographer. Sometimes. I'm engaging, we're talking, I'm trying to, through what you're saying to when you're speaking to like, what your motherhood experiences. What your experience because I mean, it is primarily mothers, I have done some sessions. With couples, I had one woman who was a single woman that had me come and do a long form. And it was so wonderful to see how somebody crafts a day. You know, it was, there was like really special moments where she was like, bringing out a 50 year old vacuum cleaner that had been her great grandmother's that was like part of her like Saturday ritual. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, things that you're like, Oh, this is what your day your life is like. But anyhow, so So the conversation is helping lead me to like what I think we should create, as well, that I'm not strictly observing. It's pretty. It's pretty dynamic. It does feel kind of collaborative. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like you're not standing back and letting them go and just click, click, click, it's you're involved, and talking about things. And yeah, I love it. You've just blown my mind. Honestly, that is just magic. And that actually explains now, why your photos are so amazing, because I had a look on your website. As I told you before I speak to my guests. And it also explains why your writing is amazing on your website because you're a writer and that oh make sense. Now You fineries are so I don't know how to describe them. They're just delightful and divine. And the, the, the story that they tell is so significant like I, I mean, back in the day, I used to do wedding photography, because I loved I love the detail of stuff. Like I took a lot of photos of people's, you know, fingers and faces and, and there wasn't a lot of, you know, let's all stand up and take a photo of everybody. I love that detail. And I feel like this, this your photos they tell so much, you know, there's so much there, but it's I can't describe it in words. I'm not I've not a good way of words to zero. But you know that I don't know how to describe it. And you can tell I think the passion that you have for what you do, like, seriously comes out because you couldn't just go click click, click and get these photos. You know, there's a, it makes sense. Now it all makes sense. There's one of my favorite podcast episodes like of all time, Malcolm Gladwell has a podcast because I just like met Malcolm Gladwell is writing so much revisionist history, and there's one I think it's called King of tears. But it talks about how country music One of the reasons that like country music breaks your heart is because it's so specific. And maybe we've kind of like used to make fun of it. Like, now dad that like sort of trope. Yeah. But, but those like real specific details, like through that, I think it speaks more to like the universal than anything else. And so that is often like what I'm looking for. It's funny, I've had like, portfolio reviews and critiques. And not everybody loves it the way I do that. They're like, You should have moved that out of the frame or whatever. But for me, it's those like messy bits, that feel. I don't that they give it the depth and the nuance that I mean, and I still want it to be pretty. That's, that's the thing. Sometimes I see strict documentary photography. And it's I don't know, in so in attempt to tell the story truthfully, I don't, I don't know that they're not always beauty isn't as much of an aim. And maybe I'm like a little superficial. I do want it to have that. And I also do think people, the clients who are hiring me, they want to see themselves in an honest way, but like, their best. I mean, like you still want to feel like beautiful and attractive in in that even if it is complicated. And you know, yes, I think yeah, I think yeah, exactly. You can show the realness, but then within that, adjust it to, I mean, the person's got to look at it and like it to at the end of the day, don't they? They don't want to look go oh, this is so cringy I don't like looking at this photo of myself. You know, it's got to have that balance, I think yeah. When you first started taking photos, did you have any influence? Or did you just go intuitively into this is the style of photo that you're taking? Now, one of the things I do not think I'm a very natural photographer, I've worked really hard at it. There are other things that I feel like have come to me. It's one of the reasons that I kind of like mentoring is because I'm like, Oh, I think I can tell you how to do this. Even if you're not like naturally good at it because I like I have put my time in I have studied, it was something that I wanted to be good at. So, so I don't know that I'm there. So there was influence, and early on. Like I also believe a lot and like finding mentors and teachers who can help you along the way. Early on when I was like getting hired, all the sudden to take pictures and I was like, well, one thing I realized was this was before I was doing long form sessions when I was taking a picture of my children, which is what was showing up in my blog. I was clicking when the light was blue Before when the moment had come, when it had sort of naturally appeared? Well, now all of a sudden, I had one hour in somebody's house. And I didn't know how to like, make that moment happen. You know what I mean? So your natural tendency, then is to, like, start posing them into groups, because you're like, I don't know what to do when I'm in there looking at you kind of like, what do we do now? Yeah, yeah. And so that's when I found, I, like, did the research and found somebody who I thought was making family photography that felt deep and rich, and not like the pictures I was seeing everywhere. And I went to one of her workshops. And in the years, since we've just developed a relationship that turned friendship, and that it was somebody that has really helped guide and I recognize the importance of that, that, you know, having somebody to look at your work and be able to give it an honest critique. And I've tried other mentors and programs I've seen sometimes you're like, Oh, that was not my person, like they're telling me about my work doesn't actually resonate when you're saying that. I felt like confrontational like, oh, you can't tell me to remove that picture. So anyhow, you find that person, that vision aligns with yours, and they help you to amplify your voice. And I think that that is a really, that was a really powerful part of my growth in learning. Yeah. And so that's what drives you to help others then because it's like, you can pass on like he said, if you're not a natural habit, I've got some tips. Yeah, you can do it. Because that was me, you know. I mean, it's funny, I was saying to my husband, I was like, I actually think I might be more of a natural teacher than a photographer, because I taught in public schools in the US for eight years. And then for two years, I did an online school class that was doing almost daily zoom calls for two years during the pandemic, like I have a lot of teaching experience. Yeah. So sometimes when I'll do mentoring sessions, and people will say, like, that was so wonderful. I've done lots of these. This felt like the best use of my money that I've ever done. Sometimes I'm like, did not just say the things that like any. Like, to me, that's where I think everything is some sort of like obvious, but you realize that maybe that's the piece that comes more naturally. Yeah, and I guess hearing things like you could hear the same thing. 20 times 20 different people, but it's not until maybe you connect with that person, you resonate with that person, and then you know, you will allow yourself to hear it. You know what I mean? Or to you to hear it? Yeah. Yeah. Because also like, if your friend who you feel like doesn't know anything about pictures is like, that's your best picture. You might be Yeah, who says like, whatever. You're an accountant, like Oh, I love that. Now, I want to mention some really amazing things about what drives you to take these pictures, right? I love going to take some direct quotes off your website, okay, which I love. It says self love and self celebration are not reserved only for the thin, white, young, cisgendered able bodied female. When I read that, I was just like, Go girl, like, I feel like there's so many of us, because we've, you know, we might have grown up with magazines with the airbrush people on the covers, and then the social media shoving thin people down our throats, it's like, you just feel so unworthy of being in front of a camera, or wanting to be in front of a camera. You know, it's just like, you read that and you go, yeah, if I feel heard, I feel seen. Well, like one of the things that I think has made me excited about photography. Like before I wanted to be a photographer, one of the things you know, I said there were lots of jobs and ideas that I would imagine that I felt like the straw like, I don't know that the work was supposed to be sort of about something and about something more that they're supposed to be an aspect of, like, activism or charity, or like that was so much. And sometimes I felt like I think maybe I wouldn't allow myself to consider being an artist because I was like, Oh, well, that seems like In almost selfish pursuit, I'm not saying that I agree with these ideas now, but you know, this was like my. But one of the things that I realized like as an image creator, as a person who makes images, that you wield a lot of power in, like what you show and where you show beauty and how you expand the definition of beauty, and how you allow other people to feel seen, and heard and accepted, when I was a kid, and I've always had a big body, like I never, there was never easy to buy clothing, I could never share clothing with my friends, I always felt like the fattest kid in the class. Because I was the fattest kid in the class, like, just in truth, that was just fact. I thought, when I didn't see people like me, in TV, or movies, or magazines or catalogs, I didn't think that the problem was them and representation, I thought that the problem was me. And if I could just make myself thinner and different, then I deserved to be represented. And, like, That's bullshit. And so now that I have like, a little bit of a platform, a little bit of a way to make images, a little bit of wit, a way to share those, I'm like, and I had to start, it's one of the reasons I'm, like, pretty passionate about self portraiture, because I wanted people of different sizes, and abilities and bodies to hire me. And I felt like well, I have to start by showing mine. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that especially photographers, if you want to be telling people, like, I want you to feel comfortable in your body, you kind of have to like, walk the walk and prove it a little like they can see through your BS. And so if you haven't really done the work, to love and accept yourself. The best thing I can do is model that. And then when I show up, I kind of show up and I give people permission to be like, Oh, yes, I get to do this too. Yeah, it probably makes your clients feel more comfortable to be themselves because they know they're with someone who has done the same thing. You can just relax and it almost feels like a camaraderie that okay, you know, I've done this you can do this, you know, and you feel empowered. I guess that's been that's definitely what I want. One of one of the stories I tell sometimes one of the bad mentoring experience, I went and paid for a mentorship with a wedding photographer when that weddings were still a bigger part of my, my work. And I really loved her editing and her low light. The way she did things This was before I was shooting film, either. But when I showed up to meet with her, the first thing she said to me was that I should not have plus size bodies on my portfolio or Instagram. Oh, it was like particularly shocking, I thought to tell straight to a plus sized person that I was like, oh, did you like think Did you like walk out right then? No, because I felt like $800 and I and I was like, Do you know what I mean? It was one of those times where you're like, what, like we hadn't even started we had like gone to get a cup of coffee. We hadn't even started the mentorship yet. And I was like, what, but you know, also, how hard is it to like, learn once you feel really shut down? Oh, yeah, actually, it was one of those things that was really invigorating for me. Yes. So like a screw that. Yeah. Like that is absolutely. I will use my like I said, my limited influence my limited platform to be like, That is not the story. I would love if that person could actually see what you're doing now that she would just get a shock of how amazing it is and how wonderful it isn't appreciated. I know though, it's funny, I had seen that at some point during the pandemic, that this person had been hired by a brand to shoot a plus size model. And that made me so mad that I was like I I think this woman is like entirely fat phobic. And now she's like, because she's being paid for the specific thing like yeah, it made my blood boil because I was oh, that poor body in front of her lens that isn't actually loved. That isn't like, there she is not seeing the beauty in that person. Like I don't, I don't believe it. But Isn't that an amazing gift from the universe though to say the thing that you're most afraid of? For whatever reason there's got to be something that's gone on in that woman's life. Here it is. And you can have some money for doing it and she would have been so conflicted she would have been doing need money or do I need to not do it? No. It is like I want to Oh my god I have been a fly on the wall that circumstance but you want to die. I would love to know now. out if that, if that changed her at all, if she in some way, developed an appreciation for a body, that's not the typical norm, which actually, I would argue that we probably are more normal than what, like, you know how, yeah, the site the size of clothes, the the, you know, the average size of clothes, the most popular size of clothes to get sold in Australia is a 14, which, I mean, fourteens aren't super small. But you know, it's, it's the other end of you know, the 810 12, you know, so, you know, our bodies are like, the normal one. And one of the things I also realized, and I, that I always had this idea that if I could achieve the certain thing, then I would feel beautiful. And I realized, I met all of these beautiful, stunning humans, and they didn't necessarily feel that they were beautiful. And I realized that there was actually like, no direct correlation between how someone looked, and how they felt about their own self and their own body. And I was sort of like, well, if there's no correlation, I might as well just decide I love myself. Because, like, it seems like, you know, if people can do it the other way, then I'm just gonna, and also, I've always just wanted to be like, a little weirder than I am. I'm actually like, more. And I was like, you know, what I think my ticket will be is I'm just gonna be the woman who loves herself. And but how bad is that? But that is groundbreaking, you know, is that new bad or was that that's what societies can do. But like photography, it was something that I had to work on. I had always loved me as a person. But I didn't love the body that I was in. Like, I thought that my body was sort of unimportant. In the grand scheme of things. I was like, Oh, it's okay. I love my spirit of my soul. I love my personality, I love my intellect, it my body is just like the bag that carries that around. And one thing that had recently sort of occurred to me, no one thinks it's because it almost seems shallow to care about bodies. Nobody makes it shallow to think that a mountain is beautiful, or a flower or a sunset, like there are all sorts of other physical forms that we get excited about, like, why can't I be excited about my physical form? Or yours? Like? Yeah, yeah, like, when you're saying that I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, I don't know what year I'm not a, I'm not a an art person. I don't understand a lot about things in art. But, you know, in some time in art, they were painting bigger bodies, you know, they will luxurious, and, you know, I can just have this image in my mind, you know, like, luxuriating on a reclined something, you know, and they were celebrating, you know, even the, what's the one that's coming out of the luxurious? Yeah, like, she's not a size too, you know, like, yeah, you know, when did we get to the, is it all about this selling, like advertising? And, you know, making money and capitalism is that, that switch that's going off some in some point in the world. I mean, I'm even thinking about in Mad Men, because that's one of my favorite TV shows. Love that show so much. You know, Joan, bigger bust round was like, you know, she had a really gorgeous figure, hourglass figure. She was, you know, craved by the men, you know, and you had all these little stick figure like Peggy and whoever running around, who people couldn't give a toss about. But then at what point did it actually go? No, we need the thinnest person possible. And that's all we want. It's the thing that feels important to me is to be like, That thin woman is beautiful, that round woman is beautiful. That older woman is beautiful, that black woman is beautiful that like that the person with the moles the person with the hair, the person with the freckles, person with the stretch marks, like I just want, I want more beauty in my life. So I just want to keep expanding the definition bigger and bigger, so that it also holds me but that it holds so many people because then I get to experience more beauty. And like I am a glutton for beauty. I am totally a hedonist. I love pleasure. I love looking at things that I'm like, Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I just want to be like, how come there has always felt like there has been some control over women's bodies, no matter which way, maybe it's about thinness. Or maybe it was about that? Oh, you shouldn't be too strong. You should look like this or youth or, like, what is fertility look like? Whatever those things are. I just want to like, say be us to all of it to be like, there is so many ways for a thing to be beautiful. And I'm, I'm not interested in just seeing one flower. Like, why would I just be interested in seeing one body type? Yeah, I love that. Like, yeah, and it reminds me too, because I actually had this conversation with someone on the podcast about why we'd want to Beauty but beauty is literally in the eye of the beholder because I love dead flowers. You know, dead flowers aren't meant to be beautiful, they're dead. But the color the roses when they die, their color comes out in a different way. And they, I don't throw them away. I just have them all around me because I just love them. You know this? Yeah, who decides what's beautiful, you know, one of my like, one of my favorite concepts. And there was a book I returned to a lot. wabi sabi for artists, designers, philosophers and poets, I think. Anyhow, it is a, you know, it's a little it's a small little like treaties on the idea of wabi sabi. And the idea of like, the beautiful and like, the imperfect, the in let's think, the imperfect, the impermanent. And one other thing that I can't think of at this moment, but you know, I'm with you, when we start to see beauty as like the full cycle of life, even in the death that there's beautiful when we start to see that like that, that whole that that comes in every part of the cycle, like, we've just expanded how much beauty we get to experience and like, we don't have to hold on so tight to the beauty that we think exist in this moment. You know what the next one is good. And when that flower rots, it becomes more flowers. And that's also beautiful, like, it will feed the ground. Yeah, cycle of life. I love that. Love it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. That brings me to talking about there's a sorry, I'm just going to bring it up on your website. So I can say the right thing. Finding myself in portrait, a self love guide disguised as a self portrait primer. So this, I guess, is your way of saying encouraging people to unite except themselves find their beauty. And, you know, this is the medium through which you will work through things, I guess. One of the things like in that digital guide, I don't like I see self portraiture as being one of the ways that we can access like a self love self care routine, I don't think I think to just start taking pictures of yourself without like having some of the intention behind it with some of the practice it can be. You know, it doesn't have the same meaning in the same depth. And meanwhile, like, you can definitely have like a self love practice and self acceptance practice that doesn't involve self portraiture, but I just liked the way that they come together. One of the reasons that I started with self portraiture was thinking, I want to show different bodies, I guess I have to start with mine. And it was sort of a hard reckoning at first, at first you see pictures of your body, and you're like, What the heck, I I was so used to the image that I saw on a mirror that I could adjust. Yeah, that I could see myself though, you know, how we all get your faces or mirror poses and like, Yeah, but then I was making self portraits. And I was seeing things that I had hidden from my own view, I did not know myself, completely and fully. And at first, it was shocking. But like, now I know me so well. Like, it doesn't surprise me when I see those things. Like, she is familiar to me. I know where her bumps are, and her cracks and her lines and her dimples. And, you know, I and I have a loving acceptance of her. And that has been a real powerful tool for me to be like I had, you know, can you think of all the times it's like your friend shows you a picture of yourself? And you're like, Oh, God. Yeah, at this point, I can be like, yeah, sometimes make that expression under those circumstances. And it's okay, because I also can do this thing, like, everyone I love. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, even the people I love very much. I don't always think that they're like, the hottest person in the world. Yeah. Doesn't mean that I don't see like their flaws are. But it does mean that like as a whole I love and accept them and I you know, see the beauty in them. I don't think that loving yourself has to mean that you don't see some of that and recognize that. But to say like, oh, I'm still worthy of my love. stretchmarks and all. Exactly. Yeah. And this concept of you mentioned earlier briefly, that we have to wait until a certain time before we're happy, you know We have to lose the kilos. Or we have to, I can't even think of another example. That's the only thing I've ever had in my head, you know, until this happens until I get to this way or till I can fit in that dress, I won't be happy, you know, you just put your life on hold. And there's so many industries that just tap into that, you know that in the fitness industry. I used to work in the fitness industry for many years. Toxic as hell, when you're in it, you don't really see it. But you get out of it. And you think, oh my lord, you know, it should be outlawed. Yeah. I can imagine that. That was like really painful. You don't even realize that it's going on, but you're like, but again, because I think we often just think it's about ourselves, and like, we're the problem. What they're doing isn't the problem. Exactly. Yes. Oh, no, I mean, powerful way of looking at it. Yeah. But I think when I think about like, it can't be the other thing. And unlike you, it's always easy for me to think about it in terms of weight, because that had always sort of been my thing, but I realized other people, they think that maybe the Botox, or they think that if their hair is different, or if they're, you know, they've got what there's just a million ways to feel uncomfortable in your body and we have been sold for so I mean, one thing that I have to say is, I do think that that is changing to some extent, like and one of the things that I encourage in that guide when I talk about this sometimes, in other places. Consider what media you're consuming. If everything on your Instagram feed is thin, white, heterosexual women of a certain age, you need to diversify that. If all of the TV and all of the movies everywhere you're buying clothing from kind of makes you feel bad because you don't see your body represented in it. There are ways to not do that anymore. Like there are I love when I'm watching television shows, they tend to be like a little more on the RT side. But when you're seeing skin that looks like real skin, there's a TV show. I don't know if it made it to Australia, Betty, it's like a skater girl. Not sure. Borders in. In New York. The first season was like New York in the summer. And it was just like, so beautiful. I mean, the cinematography of it was beautiful. It was interesting to me at one point, there's a character that just had lots of acne on his face. There was no mention of it. It wasn't a part of the storyline. He wasn't being made fun of for it. It was just like, yeah, here's some real skin. And it just was treated as normal. And it was so fascinating to me how that made me feel that I was like, That is exciting. Yeah, see that? Yeah. Yeah. It was shocking. The first time I saw catalog where I felt like boobs, stretch marks, and it was like on a plus size model, they'd always had plus size models. But I was like, Oh, my literal thought was, oh, somebody messed up, they forgot the airbrush. They're gonna get in trouble, like, somehow that had like, passed by editors. Because it was so novel to me at the time that I was supposed to say that. Yeah, I actually feel like, it's one of these moments that it's happening now is that advertisers have realized that we want to see normal bodies. And it's, I mean, certainly the the things that I see anyway, it's, it's so noticeable now that it's just becoming normal. You know, like, when I first saw it, I remember saying, Ah, it was some, it was, like, some rolls over the top of a pair and leaves in it. And it was just like, Oh, I wonder if they meant to do like, same thing did was Did that go through somehow. But now it's everywhere. It's like, it's becoming so normal, that it's not a big deal. And I think that's really important that when it stops, like, the acne, it stops being shocking. It's, it stops being out of the ordinary, then that's really good. You know, that's where things have really changed, you know? Yeah. And, and I feel excited for younger generation. I'm, it's interesting, because I know that people give social media a lot of hard time and the effect that it's having on our teens, in part because my oldest my 17 year old daughter, like, I don't know, the part of Tiktok and Instagram that she seems to be interested in is like that, you know, queer people of color content creators. So like she's isn't I mean, there is a way to has given marginalized voices. A platform. Yeah. And I think that that can be exciting and that like we need to remember that that It is also happening. Yeah, in a way that I think is really powerful. Yeah, that CD, isn't it? I think. Yeah. And certainly a lot of conversations I've had on this on this podcast is like, you know, in Instagram, and I'm not on Facebook a lot now, but and I'm not on Tik Tok, because I feel like, it's just another thing for me to see, am I not doing anything? Yeah, I thought but you know, Instagram, it's got its place, you know, my, you know, people I speak to mostly have a business. So, you know, you've, you feel like, you've got to be on there to get yourself out. And then we're so quick to bag at art shows this and shows that, but you're right, if you shift your focus, and you say, right, I'm not seeing what I want to say, seek out the things you want to see. Because they are there. Like you said, the these marginalized voices, they are there, and they're trying really hard to be heard. And that's interesting you say about your daughter, I think a lot of the time, we don't give our kids enough credit for actually how switched on they are about the world. You know, I think we're coming at it from our world of, you know, we're all on social media now. But we didn't grow up with it. So we we've been through this year of fear about it. And you know, they're predators and whatever. So we can come at it from that, which obviously is important. I'm not diminishing that at all. But we can come at it from that fear perspective. But like my example of my son, who's 14, and he got on to Arkin, he got on to Facebook once, as I said, I You can't be out to your 13 or whatever. And he didn't tell me that he'd been on it. And so I had this conversation, are you not going to tell me if you're doing this stuff? And I don't mind you doing it? But tell me he goes, Oh, yeah, I was on it for about 10 minutes. And I thought this is a load sheet. So I uninstalled it, you know, and, and he has this very, I don't say jaded view, but he's very questioning about why people do what they do. On these platforms. You know, he sees the girls at school, particular groups who record the Tick Tock dancers. So he's like, Ah, I'm not gone there. Because all they do is those stupid dance, you know, like, kids aren't stupid, you know, and they're quite painful at times, you know, to make their decisions and say, This is what I want to consume, probably more so than what way? You know. I've heard a lot of things and it's like Millennials spend more time on their phones, the Gen Zers do and I feel like, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of, maybe we're given them a hard time. In places, I'm not saying that there aren't mental health consequences. Some, but I think some of the conversation shouldn't be whether this is good or bad, but like, how are you going to use it? What are you going to do with it? Yes. What? And like, have those conversations rather than just acting like, the only conversation is, what? What platforms are you on? And how much are you on there? Yeah, like if for what purpose? What are you trying to get out of it? Who are you seeing? Like, you know, he knows me. And you know, there's also how you get to have all sorts of meaningful conversations, especially with your tweens and teens getting older. Yeah, so some interest in those places, opens up a lot of conversation. Now on that we should talk about your children. Now, we let's mention that you do have children. Tell us how many do you have? Five? Yeah, they run the age gamut. There's Awesome. Yeah, so I have a 17 year old, 15 year old, a nine year old, a seven year old and a three year old. Oh, beautiful. I mean, one of the things I live in the same small town that I grew up, and within like, I'm one of six kids and five of us still live within a two mile radius. Yeah, my mom is here. My dad, my grandma, my aunt, my cousin's like, you know, there's six, soon to be seven nieces and nephews who you know. So one thing about having a big family is just that I have such a support network that I don't think everybody has. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Yeah. And yeah, having five it would take a lot of time to do things. We'd need that some food. But then also, my kids are so spread out in age, it really helps. My oldest is home from college this weekend. But like, you know, if we're about to go somewhere, she's helping get the three year old dress or their energy. Do you know what I mean? There's because I do so much traveling for work these days where I'm going away to shoot these long form sessions. Oftentimes, you know, my 15 year old is baby is watching his younger siblings, we live really close to the Chesapeake Bay. So he'll like take them to the beach or take them to playgrounds and kind of, you know, help do things while my husband's working. Anyhow. So it's really a it's deeply a family affair. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, really team players about it. That's awesome. That's something I wanted to ask you actually about, you know, having your children see what you do for them to see you as I put this in air quotes more than just mum because we're never just mum. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I am not like a martyr by nature. Like, I love mothering. I love my kids. There's, but like, I, I didn't want that to be my whole identity. Like, there's other things that mattered to me. And I'm okay with them realizing like, we do things with each other and for each other, and we go hard as a team. And also, we get to have our own lives and our own passions. And I want you to see that, like, I'm going to pursue those. Especially because my oldest is like you she wants to be a songwriter. That's right, because that's your Yeah, medium. Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, I have a day job, but my my love my first my first one is music. Yes. Yeah. I feel like I've shown her like, this is how like, you are gritty and you work and you like, keep going. And, you know, I like we talk about those things and how you market and how you network and how like, because if you want a career in arts, either you're gonna have to have a day job and it's like more a hobby, but if you want a career in IT, like you're gonna have to hustle. That's a lot of work. And it's a hard slog. Yeah, there's much easier ways to make $1 Yeah, it's it's the constant pool, isn't it? It's like the creativeness is always there. And it's like, like, I'll be on my day jobs with children. I work in the kindergartens here make Gambia and, you know, you're thinking of stuff, you're always got that that brain on it, like, Oh, that's a good chain quickly, running to the toilet and record it in my phone. You know, like, it doesn't turn off, you know? Yeah, yeah, you'd be this say really love that visual. Details I live for God. So with your traveling, you said you'd go away a lot to do these long form sessions. How do you sit with the concept of mum guilt? What does that does that even exist in your world? I feel I feel more guilty that I'm gonna say I don't think it does. Because I feel I'm like, Mom. Okay, so one thing to know about me, I got pregnant with my first I was only 19 years old. When I found out I was pregnant. I was not with my husband and I were not together at that point. It was like, totally an accident, and it was not planned. And so I sort of was like, Okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna, like, try my best. But there was a part of me that maybe because I wasn't like, a thing that I had planned and gone into real intentionally at the beginning, that I was like, we're, we're in this together. I'm gonna give it the old college try. Don't know that. In some ways, I think it's what has been my saving grace, though. That has been like, I'm pretty good at presence and trying to decide like, if this is what's in front of me, I want to make the most of it and have but to some extent, I feel that way about my kids to like, this is the mom you were dealt. And she loves you fiercely. There are things she is great at and there are things that she is not. And one of the things that is important to me is I try to find a moment, moments of deep presence with my kids that I'm paying attention that I'm listening that I'm there with them. And I do not hold myself to a standard that that has to be all day every day. I think that some I think that sometimes moms act like if I'm not giving them everything which none of us are even capable of, then they're then they're feeling guilty every time they pick up the phone where I would much rather kind of have like a clear delineation of like You got your time, and now I'm having my time. And that's okay. Yes. Yes. I don't have to be your everything. And you're not gonna be my everything. Here here. Yes. Round of applause. Yeah, honestly, I feel like that that's something that I am really strong on his like, I'm not gonna leave behind the Allison that I was before I happen to have children, it hasn't made me a completely different person, obviously, I've changed, of course, we all change, we. And even if we don't have children through periods of our lives, we change. But just because I have these little people here does not mean that I stop. And everything I've ever done is just watch from the page, because I am now a mother. And I want my children in a respectful and kind way to understand that I am still May. And when they rush in here and say I need this, I need this, I need this. And I've just spent, you know, two hours playing out the back or whatever. I actually right now, I'm right in the middle of something that I've really liked to finish. Come back to me in 10 minutes, you know, and there is nothing wrong with saying that, you know, don't feel like want to teach your kids that they get to have like some boundaries. And like, everybody doesn't stop the the world. One of the books that was like super influential when I was pregnant with my first. Yeah, I have not watched a lot of Oprah since but at the time, I was like watching a lot of Oprah I was a little depressed or lots of the pregnancy. But I remember, there was a book called Confessions of a slacker mom, I wish I remember who the writer was. But I like loved that book. It did give me a certain permission because it was talking kind of about the benefit of being a slacker mom, that doesn't jump at your kids every whim. Because like, What good are we doing for them? This little shits? They're gonna think things about them like that is not? Yes. So you're actually doing them a disservice by sending them out into the world thinking that, you know, everything revolves around. Yeah. Well, so like, yeah, wait, turn, you will figure it out. And, and but then they're, I mean, I like family dinner is really important to me. That's like something that I love. I don't mind the emotional labor of the fact that I'm like, the one who buys most of the groceries in the house, that I'm the one who prepares most of the food that like dinner is sort of my domain. And it's a thing that I give to my family because it's important. And that's a time where like, we do come together and we and then I don't mind that I like leave the dishes for them and then come up here and this record this podcast with you like, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, now it's my time. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's so important for, you know, your children to see that because they're going to take that into their life. You know, I feel like, you know, my parents was not, it wasn't like this, you know, I felt like, if we wanted something, you know, they did it for us. There wasn't? I don't know, it's like, it's a different a different time, I think of setting boundaries and saying, hang on a sec, you know, particularly women, you know, yeah, this is not okay for us, you know, I'm putting my hand up. As I say this, it's like, no, actually, this is not okay, now is the time that this is going to change. And we pass that on to the next generation. Hopefully, yeah. Because how many of us have mothers that we love so deeply, but we're thinking I wish you had kept more for yourself? I wish that you you know what I mean? Like, you were doing it all for us. But like, I want you to have, you know, the people we love, we want them to have held on to that. So really, we're doing our kids a great service to hold on to a piece as when they're adults. And they're not going to feel like we depend on them in the same way. And I don't know, I think that's says a woman who sees her mother every day and I absolutely depend on so. I've got my family here. You know, my mom and dad, okay, I was the same thing. I was born in this town, I have no reason to leave, leave this town. My sister literally lives around the corner. You know, she's just over there. But you know, that, that family thing, I'd need that support. I'd be I'd be stuck through that. I couldn't do half the things I do if I didn't have mom, you know, and I want them to know that like, Hey, you can stay and you can do this. Like, I'm going to be okay either way. Like, my happiness does not rely on your constant presence necessarily. Like, I mean, and I've gotten especially because my first isn't in at home in the same way. When I realized like, oh, no, there's still like a really meaningful, deep connection that we can have even when we're not seeing each other daily. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a visitor I'm speaking okay family. Come say hello. Just take me is this bagpiper? This is Rachel. No. This is not the bagpiper. This was a little i This is little Lisa's degree. How old are you, Digby? How old are you? sound a bit louder. Seven. I heard I've got a seven year old to me. How are you going? Do you need something in particular? Or are you coming in to say hi? All right. Yeah. It's a Yeah. So yeah, I'll be out soon. Okay. Come on. Face. That way. All right, there we go. See how we go for the night? Yeah. That's how we make it work. To being a mom. You read this book has been like one of my favorite books this week? Or this year? Baby on the fire escape? Oh, no, I don't know that one. Okay, so I'm writing the art of being a mum. So this is it's a book that looks at different mother artists, mostly that were born in about like the 1900s. Because they wanted to look at like the whole course of their career. Yeah, but one of the things that they see the power of interruptions, like all mothers, it's the thing that like both our daily work, and also the trajectory of our careers get interrupted by childbirth by all of these things, but also like the daily will be trying to, like record a podcast. And anyhow, it's a great read. And it's like, really inspiring. I'm frightened that one day and I'm gonna check it out. I love that. Because I mean, it's it's inescapable, isn't it? Like, it's just you can't split yourself into who you are. You just you always. Yeah, I mean, the Myth of Multitasking, you can only single task back and forth. And yeah. And something interrupted. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to mention that I thought was really relevant of the way that you photograph is that you're talking about being present helps you with your lack of mum guilt, which is awesome. Yeah, we can all take something from that. Like, you can only do what you do in that moment. And there's actually no point, thinking it later, because you can't change the past or that sort of philosophy, but the presence in the imperfections, you know, life's messy, and that's what it is, you know, you know, I think the way that you photograph, it shows real life. And I, we've we've sort of talked about this in other ways, but I don't know, there's just so much to be said, for that acceptance in the moment. This is who I am, this is what's happening. And that can really give you peace, I think that you just go I did what I did. I've done what I've done. End of story. Yeah, that like it. And I know that that can be easier said than done. And the kind of thing that takes some practice. And I think, you know, that, that there are things that we can do to, to work on the release. And to, you know, one of the things I talk about, sort of frequently, like in my newsletter, and things like that is what is coming back into my senses as often as possible. When I'm feeling like I've, I'm moving out to be like, okay, my feet feel like this on the ground. And my clothing feels like this. And this is what I'm smelling. This is what I'm seeing. One of the practices and presence that I also like, tried to do, especially when things are starting to feel really chaotic, is I it's kinda like a gratitude journal, but I call it poetic sparks, where I'm just trying to like notice, to spend my day like noticing the little bits of beauty no matter what else is happening, and then that I write them down because it then helps, like, when I know that I'm gonna write it down, I hold on to them differently. And then I also get to experience them a second time in the writing. And then maybe I even get to experience them a third or fourth time if I revisit that writing. Yeah, and if you remember it in a different way, that it becomes less fleeting, but it does help me kind of just ground back into it and also to realize like, it would be things that are very sterile aren't where I find the most beauty. Like, you know what I mean? The things that are feel me The most perfect Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And then acceptance to be like, actually like, when I'm in really like beautiful, perfectly styled super clean, super minimal homes. I find it less exciting than like, seeing the things that are left by the front door and like what story does that tell? And what does the like? What did the dirty dishes on the counter? Like? What did they hint that? I don't know. And all of those things and let me a bigger slob in my own home. Like it's a win whimsically. The shovelled a whole aesthetic like God, I love that. That's the new. That's hashtag. Yeah. But the other thing, sir, I keep referring to things you've written, but they're just they're powerful things, the joy in the mundane. And that is something that reminded me immediately there was a guest I had on last season. What was it early this year, I can't remember. Monica Crowley is an Irish artist. She's a printmaker, and a painter. And she is really similar in the way that she looks at it. It's like, you're gonna be at bed at the sink, washing dishes a lot, as a mother, and to actually find the joy in that. And she, she created this entire artwork, of all the experiences that she had standing at the sink and doing the dishes, I feel like we can get really caught up in celebrating the big things that happen. But in the meantime, we're actually just living our lives, and we're missing the life that's happening in front of us, because we're waiting for some big event or whatever, you know, it's existing and happening right in front of us. I feel like we diminish that. Yeah, it's like, it's we're just waiting for vacation. And especially if you were in the US, we don't even get the vacations that you Australians get, like you get a lot less of it. It's like if that is every week is just been waiting, if we're just waiting on the weekend. That's a whole lot of life to not be appreciating. And like. So I want to be able to say like, what can I do in the moment of folding laundry, which is like definitely my least favorite chore. If you can see the pile of clean laundry that is to the right of me right now. It's like, it's like been worked on today and it's knee high. Like it is significant. In that moment, what can I What pleasure can I can I get from it? And if I can't get pleasure from it, is there a way that I can add something to it? Is there like music, I can listen to our podcast? Or if I asked my husband to come in and help me and then we're talking while we're doing it, like what can happen so that this doesn't feel miserable? And like just a chore that I have to do. I'm like always try. I'm always trying to hack my joy to be like this be more fun. Because I wanted to. Yes, and we are in control of that. And I think that harks back to what you said earlier that you don't have a martyr mentality at all. It's not like Well, here I am suffering again during this folding of watching you know, it's like right how can I turn this around? And that's a really powerful thing to first recognize and then actually go and do you know you're in control of how you want to feel just powerful. Yeah, I love them. Love it I feel like we could talk for hours about this. This is so far. Oh, now I have to tell you about when you were talking earlier about artists sorry, particularly photography. When you want to portray something. You know, you've got to be that authentic yourself, you know, acceptance of your body and showing yourself. There's a photographer here in Mount Gambier. Her name's Louise Agnew. And I think you would love her stuff that feels familiar. She had she was a guest on my podcast a little while ago, but she shows herself in raw vulnerable and she's incredibly inspirational looking at her work right now. Yeah, yes. And I think that, especially in a town, like, you know, small town mentality, everyone's judging everyone else. What's that person doing? Blah, blah, blah. But you know, she's got this platform and she's, you know, projecting this stuff and it's influencing a lot of people and making a lot of people feel really comfortable in their own skin. So yeah, I was gonna say if you don't know her she's a really good one to seek out she's, yeah, talk about walking the talk or however you say it. She's she's doing this stuff. Yeah, no, i i Absolutely. It's funny though. We're talking about like, the small town Enos of it sometimes. Yeah, it's funny. Like, sometimes I'll post maybe a less, like, personal like, full nude self portraits out there. But sometimes there is like a little bit of burying some skin. Like, have posted it. And then you are at the grocery store. People that you know, like it's one thing to show the internet. It's so much more embarrassing when it was like your old Sunday School teacher or like, your neighbor feels like a little weird right now. Like being authentic. That's like, um, yeah. Okay, now I have to show my face. I get particularly embarrassed to act like the internet exists that I want to be like, can we just pretend it doesn't right now? Like, you know what's going on? Can we? Yeah. Let's just keep the conversation on like the cantaloupes look good today, right. Let's not let's not, let's not talk about my really, really? Yeah. Oh, man. I love that. So can you share with us? I mean, obviously, I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people to find you. But where's the best place for people to get in touch with you? I mean, my favorite thing is, if you would, if you're interested in weekly shares, my newsletter is my favorite. And you can find that either on my Instagram, that it's in the link profile, or on my website. It'll direct you there. And I'm Rachel dot Larson dot Weaver on Instagram or just Rachel Larson. weaver.com is mindful. So yeah, my newsletter is my favorite thing. Yeah. mentioned, but I like Instagram a lot. So yeah, I like it while the getting's good, who knows how long we have it for now? I'm enjoying the present. Yes. Oh, the newsletter. I mean, Instagram seems to go away anytime. Yes, and I think that's the thing too that acceptance of of the future to like we're not in control of some things and that can either scare the crap out of you or give you a tremendous amount of peace that it's like this acceptance of what will be will be and you know, and I try to hedge my bets a little like email list as that or but like Don't be can't count on any one thing as being our as being our Savior. It's not going to be it I'm can't control if Instagram becomes all stupid reals there's nothing I can do about like I'm I'm just not there's like important things that I need to be fighting. Yeah, algorithm is not one of them. It's not gonna be Yeah. Can't fight the machine. Yeah, hard pass. Is there anything you want to share that's coming up, or you want to give some things a plug? Um, well, at the end of October, I will be announcing the next round of mentoring sessions, which is like more useful for folks in America than Australians. Because they're like, an in person, or because there's an in person component to it. But um, when this airs, I'll be in the middle of the retreat, where people are coming to my hometown and staying in my childhood home and will shoot portfolio building sessions that are like, catered exactly to the portfolios they want to be making that I've arranged all the shoots around their specific goals, but I'm going to be announcing dates for them. next two sessions. So if you're interested in, in doing that kind of work, if making images that show beauty like across difference, that feel really rooted in presence, and imperfection, and join them in and date and all of those things that we've talked about. And if lots of the people who are joining these are folks who are interested in learning more about long form, and how they can bring that into their own business models, come check it out, fit for you, yeah. There's an image on your website. I've done yoga for a long time. And I had a small period of my life where I was quite thin. And that was a very short period of time. But now I've gone back to how I had that myself. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting that I'm hyper mobile. So I'm quite naturally bendy. Anyway. Yeah. And there's an image on your website of a lady. She's pretty much nude. But you can't I mean, she's got a leg in the spot. You can't see a bottom half. But, you know, she's doing this massive back then. And oh, yeah, I was like, I've found that so inspiring. Because it's like, I'm big. And you don't have to be skinny to be flexible. You know, like, yeah, I feel like, that's this thing that's still in my head from the gym. The gym days when I was instructing people was like, I don't know, it was like, it just reminded, like, I know this stuff. Like, I know, I live this life. I know it. But it reminded me like this thing that still stuck in my head. So I just banged myself on the head and attempt to get it out. You know, just reminded me that anybody can be flexible. You know? Why is this thing that you have to rethink to reflect? Sorry? That's like it. That's one of my favorite images that I've ever made. I love that picture. Yeah, it's just you. Yeah, it's true. But you're absolutely right. Like, we have these ideas about health and how it relates to body size. And they're frequently like, just bullshit, like, your strength, your flexibility, your endurance, what you're getting what I mean, like all of these sorts of markers that are actually important, like blood pressure, any of those things. They don't have to be related to weight. But we put so much idea on like, what the size or what a number says versus like, well, what is it doing? Also, you know, then there's a whole argument to over like, and you get to be loved even if your body can't do that, because there's a whole lot of non able bodied people that can't do those things. Yes, absolutely. I don't know. It's just not reserved for like gym rats. Yeah, yeah. This is a really fun talk. It's been one year ever. I'll have to do something new and exciting. So then I can convince you to let me come back on. Oh, I've got this new thing to talk about. Let's have another case. Let's Let's do it again. Thank you so much. It's been so lovely speaking to you, all the best with everything. And I'm really, really happy to see you doing this stuff, because it's so worthwhile is the word I'm looking for. It's really, it was really nice talking and thanks for giving. Mom's an artist and Mother artists like a platform. It's, it's my pleasure. I love that. I'm just grateful people want to talk to me. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic Mom

Ayla Simone Australian fiction author S3 Ep85 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Ayla Simone is my guest this week, Ayla is a contemporary fiction author and digital copywriter and a mum of 2 from Brisbane , QLD, Australia. Ayla grew up writing, but like many creatives, couldn't see how writing was going to be full time job. She turned instead to marketing, content creation and copywriting to utilize her creativity. She began writing her debut novel Marigold Milk when her her son was a baby, he was a contact napper and she would write while he was napping on her lap, using her phone to write. Marigold Milk drops the reader into a tumultuous and trans-formative time of Mariella Gold’s life. Grief-stricken by the loss of a child, Mariella loses her floristry business and applies for a nannying position with a twist. The unusual and lucrative role sees her helping care for the baby of widowed local doctor, Dr Jamie North. The job is a welcome escape from the despair of her lifeless marriage, but Mariella is surprised to even find joy and purpose with Jamie and his son, in a way she couldn’t have expected. Ayla has 2 more books in the works and her work aims to examine themes of modern life that are often silenced within us; with a particular focus on women and motherhood. **This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss and wet nursing** Ayla - instgram / book Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered, while trying to be a mum and continue to create your hair themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you are all around the world. My guest today is ala Simone. ALA is a contemporary fiction author and digital copywriter from Brisbane in Queensland, and she's a mom of two. I grew up writing but like many creatives couldn't see her writing was going to be a full time job. She turned instead to marketing, content creation and copywriting to utilize her creativity. I began writing her debut novel marigold milk when her son was a baby. He was a contact Napper and she would write while he was napping on her lap using her fine marigold milk drops the reader into a tumultuous and transformative time have Mariela gold's life. grief stricken by the loss of a child, Mariela loses her floristry business and applies for a nanny position with a twist. The unusual and lucrative role sees her helping to care for the baby of a widowed local doctor. The job is a welcome escape from the despair of her lifeless marriage, and she is surprised to find joy and purpose with the new doctor and his son. In a way she could never have expected. Ayla has two more books in the works. And her work aims to examine themes of modern life that are often silenced within us, and a particular focus on women and motherhood. This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss and witnessing. Hi, Isla, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to welcome you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. So we're about to you leaving. I'm in Brisbane in the suburbs. Lovely. Yeah. My sister spent a bit of time up in Brisbane few years ago, and we went to visit it the first time I'd ever been up there. I just loved it. It reminded me of like, be like Adelaide with it sort of easygoing, but the weather being a lot better. I just found everyone was so friendly. And it's just a really lovely place. It is quite like a small town. Most of my family's in Melbourne. So going to Melbourne. It's like wow, this is a big city. Brisbane, you probably feel similar seems Adelaide. It's more laid back. Yeah. Very hot out here though. Yeah. Now and because you guys don't have daylight savings. Do you know? Yeah, because that was something I noticed when I was up there. How it got early. So like got bright and light so early. And it was just that okay, we're up. Yeah. On the flip side, you go to some of these daylight savings and the kids don't want to go to sleep until like nine or 10 o'clock because it's bright. Yes. That's that's us at the moment. It's like half past eight. Oh, maybe even caught nine before it gets dark. So they're just like, but it's too late outside. We don't know like I've got nothing left. You have to do it. Yeah, that was literally my last night because the bubblegum back to school today. Down here. So last night, the day please just go to sleep. I see a great day for you that it's a wonderful day is such a nice day. It's just nice to have done the school drop off and then just go do something that doesn't involve looking after other people. And the silence when you leave them and it's like I don't have to talk to anyone for a little while. Yes. Gosh, yeah, you take it for granted. You really do. Yeah, yeah. You're an author, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into writing? Is it something that you've always done? Like as a kid growing up? Yeah, writing has always sort of been my thing, I guess I remember in primary school, going to little writing camps. And in high school, I was in, you know, the kind of extension English writing thing. And that was my thing. Like, I could not do math to save my life at all. Writing has been, it's like, probably close. Next, I was like, Oh, I can do this. Yeah, and I've always loved writing, I always wanted to write a book. Yeah, and I've just finally now done it, I think some probably other people in the arts can relate to this, you have an interest in something creative. And growing up, there's a lot of noise around, okay, but you've got to kind of make that a job where you can actually make a living, you know, for the kind of consumer society you can't, you know, you can't cut off into the woods and write a book. Like, that's not what you're going to do. So yeah, I've done marketing and content creation and copywriting. So I guess that's how I kind of made it a job. And then, yeah, recently got to what I wanted to do originally, which is writing a book, congratulations. That's pretty exciting. Yeah, that that theme of, of sort of putting your passion on the back burner, or like, in your case, in many others, to finding a way to sort of slightly incorporate that into their, like, paid job. It's such a common theme, just, you know, parents will be like, oh, you know, how you're gonna pay the bills, you know, that's not a real job, all that sort of stuff. And then they find themselves coming back to it, you know, as an adult, because you just cannot you get to where we cannot not do it, you know, it's like, yeah, it just makes you do it. So, tell us about your book. Well, my food, I feel like this is a common theme with authors. Or it might just be me because I'm a shy author. But when someone asks, What's your book about? That's like the worst question. Oh, amazing. Like hard to condense? Yeah, probably. So in like internal. But basically, it's about a main character. And she's just lost a baby. And then she's lost her business, and her husband of 10 years has turned on her and become a really awful person in her life. So she's desperate to find a purpose. And she decides that she wants to donate her breast milk online after hearing about it from a friend. And then she meets with a widowed man who's just lost his wife. So he has a baby to feed, and he's desperate for help as well. And he asked her to fulfill the quite unusual position these days of being a witness for his baby. And the reason behind that is the baby has a lot of allergies, and he's really struggling, you know, to find something that will help his baby be healthy. So she's sort of propelled by her grief and wanting to escape her household situation, and she accepts it and joins his family. And she starts to find purpose and happiness again, but then sort of the truth of her own motherhood. And what has happened in her past starts to unravel slowly, she has to kind of face her demons and see if she can overcome them to find her own purpose in life again. Yeah, right. That's a really cool storyline, like, Yeah, that's really cool. I don't usual when I started writing it, I, it was kind of the whole point was, you know, I was at home with my baby nursing writing. I was just thinking, I've never read a book, really, where there's a character, even books that have mothers, there's not really a character that mentioned, you know, the breastfeeding the nursing or, you know, feeding the baby. It's not something that's mentioned that often and for me, at least, it's like a huge part of being a mum, like, I mean, no matter how you feed your baby, especially at the start, you're spending hours every day, like feeding your baby, whether it's a bottle, you're breastfeeding them to hear. So I sort of wanted to incorporate that and I started writing it as historical fiction, because, you know, witnesses that was an old time. Yeah, but then I think it was like 20,000 words, then I'll say is this isn't gonna really help Modern mothers like this is, you know, a historical story. But if I was to kind of juxtapose that with modern times, where it actually makes it something a little shocking to some people, I'm sure. I think it has more value for mothers to kind of read it in a modern setting. Yeah, cuz I was gonna ask you sort of what you said. Yeah. And for those who don't know, a witness, basically is it's a mother who's lactating who feeds another mother's child, basically. Yeah. And in my story, I've been very careful to not not to say this. It's not just, I wouldn't even say it's the central theme of the story. And I think that was important. For me, for Mother's reading it, it's not the hero of the story is not that she breastfeeds a child. And it's definitely not the villain of the story. And it doesn't ruin anything for her. It's something very special. And that's highlighted. But yeah, it's not the be all end all, she has so many other facets to her other than that she's feeding a baby. But the fact that her client kind of needed her to do that to help him. But it also very much helped her because she was grieving the loss of a child. You know, if you lose a baby quite late, you may lactate. So this is what's happening to this character. And I think it's just been a huge comfort for her that she could use that milk. For your identity was important for you to keep that writing process going when you had your children. Yes, it definitely. I mean, I write quite a lot in my job. But to have that sort of also, hobby creative writing is so important. And I feel so much better. You know, I've had a bit of time to write, and usually, actually always my writing time, like, in bed with a baby on me writing on Google docs on my phone, how I wrote this book, the whole thing. So you know, it's just fit in somewhere. But then the rest of the afternoon is like, ah, you know, I've done something for myself. Yeah, it can be a better mother for it. Definitely. And I have a, I have a baby, but I also have a seven year old. So it's been pretty cool. telling her about the book and her seeing it and see like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a book. Like she's so excited. So that yeah, that is awesome. That is really cool. Do you sort of feel like it's important that, that your seven year old sees you as something else other than as a mother? You know, you're still you're still a person that does things in the world? Yeah, definitely. And maybe that's why it was even more surprising to her. I sort of said to her while I was writing it, like, oh, I mean, writing this story. I think I might actually get it published into a book. And it's that sort of an abstract idea or seminar or like, What do you mean? Like, you know, not Roald Dahl. You can't write a book. And then when it arrived nice, she showed her Yeah, cuz you're gonna face like, wow, my mom like does stuff other than look after us? Yeah. Yeah. Especially for a little girl. Like, I don't want her to think she'll have kids one day. And that's it, like hanging off your cowboy boots. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Other aspects to a woman obviously. Didn't know that. That's really cool. I love that. And I sort of feel like that with my sons. It's like, it's for them as they grow up to be able to respect a woman as other things apart from just having children. You know, like, I feel like there's, there's certainly a, you know, that misogynistic sort of element to society that, you know, like you said, you take a few breaks, you're done. Yeah, it's really important. Yeah, absolutely. So How old's your youngest? He's 16 months. So he actually a toddler is probably my last one. So it's me. He's a baby. Yeah, love. So when did you start writing when just when he was really, when he was really a baby? Both my kids have been contacted snafus. So, you know, stuck in bed for hours. And I think he was just a few months old me scrolling Facebook, whatever. It's like why why don't I do something that's actually going to benefit my mental health and you know, if I can turn into something my future So yeah, I just started writing the story and I just loved it and every naptime occasionally after bedtime, that's just what I've done. Yeah. That's awesome. So sorry, I didn't say the book's title. It's Marik old milk. So I'm guessing marigold is the main character. Her name is Mariela gold. Right? Yeah, that's very gold comes up because she had a floristry business that gets shut down. And one of the other characters says to her, Oh, like, Why didn't you call it you know, something like marry gold, because your name makes up Mary gold. And that's sort of a pivotal moment. And then after that, marigolds kind of pop up through the story as symbolism for how her story is unfolding. So yeah, let's go. How did you come up with the idea? Was that just something that came to you? Or are you like, are you really into flowers and flowers? And I love symbolism. So I think it didn't come quite organically. I wrote her in as a florist. I think I've always been fascinated by forestry. Like, it's just such a beautiful art to work in. Yeah. And then as kind of the marigold play on words came up, it all just started unfolding. And I've planned out my next few books, and they're both flower related as well. Sort of like the same, the next two books? I mean, I don't want you to give any secrets away. Are they an extension of marigold story? Are they just brand new characters? Well, I didn't want to write a sequel. I'm not sure why I just prefer a standalone story. And it is quite closed books. And when it finishes, it's kind of like, okay, this story is done nice and late, really tied up. But I have made the next few books have a slight overlap in characters. So there's sort of like a very sideline character in Marigold, milk. And then the next book is her story. So they sort of mentioned each other, which I think is a cute little tie in. But that I mean, the stories are not related at all. The next book is actually got nothing to do with motherhood, or babies or anything, which has actually been really fun. It's like, oh, this is really an escape. I'm writing like a 30 Something single spinster with a cat and like I'm on it. Anything. It's sort of like you're living in this universe, what could have happened? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was. What's it like the process to get a book published? Well, I mean, it's different for everyone, there is the traditional publishing route, which I dabbled with. And then I think I read so much about it from other authors. I was just scared out of it. And it might be something I pursue in the future. But it's a very lengthy process, you've kind of got to find an agent. And then once you've got an agent, they contact the publishing houses and then even if you do get a deal, you usually have to wait like two or three years before your book is actually out there. Yeah, and I think because I spent just like day after day, hours and hours writing this book, when it was finished, I was like, No, I'm getting this out there. This on me anymore. I need to get it done so I can move on to the next thing. No, I ended up self publishing my book which has been really interesting and exciting thing. Yesterday it's amazing how accessible it is to publish a book now. Yeah, quite simple. This we have this topic that I love to talk about to all my guests and I put it in air quotes, the old mum guilt. What is your take on that? I do remember after I had my first baby, another mum made a throwaway comment something like Oh, yes, you'll you know, you'll have mom guilt. It's always they're always going to feel guilty, you know, doing anything, right. And I remember at the time, my baby was about six months old, and I was I really couldn't relate to what she was saying. Maybe just the naivety of it. You know, as kind of like, I know, I'm doing everything I can for this baby. I don't feel guilty. Everything's great. But sort of since I've had the second and it might be about you There's more of a juggle, because you know, especially with the age gap, I have this seven year old that wants to chat all day and make bracelets and little intricate things. And then I have this 16 month old boys just destroying everything. And I yeah, I have definitely found now a bit of mum guilt. This is like, there's not enough of you to go around at all. But I wouldn't say ever feel guilty about writing or doing things like that for myself. And it might be because it's so limited. Like, you know, I'm not going down to get a pedicure. And you know, I haven't much time. And that's my little bit of time that I do that. So I think I feel pretty good about it. Now good on Yeah, I love hearing those answers. And it's the sort of thing, everybody has a different take on it. And I think that's why I love talking about it, because I just love hearing, you know, the differences in the variances and yeah, I love that I had, I think I've had two guests that didn't even know what it was at all. And as the hell no, I can relate to that. They is sort of the age gap. You have to I've got seven years between my two. And they have their moments they they fight like cats and dogs sometimes. Yeah, they both have cute moments. They don't they? Ah, yeah. is lovely to watch it really? Yeah. I think it's nice having a child that's old enough to remember their sibling getting born and things like that. I reckon that's pretty cool is lovely. Although I don't know about your children, but my older child remembers being an only child. So she's sort of like, she brings me photos of us just my her dad and I and her together on holidays. She's like, so can we leave Leo somewhere? And like do that again? Probably not like his duty a little brother. Oh, God. That's hilarious. I love that. Yeah, that's good. I've never actually thought about that. I should ask I'll make a note to ask at least. Yeah. Yeah, it's good fun. So something else I'd like to talk about is sort of the cultural norms of, you know, the traditional roles of the mother and the father and who goes to work and who stays home? And what role modeling did you have about what a mother could look like when you were growing up? Didn't sort of inspired you to do what you're doing? Well, I would say my family unit when I was growing up is quite different to probably what my now family unit is in that it was very traditional. So my mum was basically home with us, I think, till I started primary school. So we very much had, like the mother at home and the dad, you know, that went to work. And my mom was just excellent at being you know, a stay at home mom is baking and cooking and my memory always seem to be cheery and happy to play with us, which is a hard thing to aim for. Yeah, whereas it might be a little bit because of what my job is like, I know I can do my job on my phone or on my laptop home anywhere. With both kids. I've gone back into some kind of from home work within six months to a year of having them. So although I am staying at home, just like my mom did, I think yeah, I'm I don't have the mental space to be like babe. Yeah, if anything. Yeah, I wish I was a bit more like my mum. But I think the times have very different now. You can't really you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't now, basically, you know, if I was staying at home not working, I'm sure someone would have something to say about that. Or if I was working full time putting the kids in daycare, you know, that would also be mortifying for some people. So yes, just trying to strike a balance in these crazy modern times, isn't it? Yeah, I think yeah, we're all just doing the best we can out we like have no there's so much. I think that's where a lot of people do feel the mum guilt is like the judgment of others that someone's comment will make you feel bad about yourself. But you know, deep down like you said before, about you know, you you know you're doing the best you can you know, you you're giving your children everything you can. So it's these sort of offhand flippant remarks, and really make us question ourselves and it's like social media makes it even worse when you see your people doing whatever and you think, oh, I should be doing that or I shouldn't be doing that or whatever. You know that Yeah, should Africa. Yeah. And that's a big part of, I guess why I wanted to include a little like reality about motherhood and breastfeeding, that sort of thing in my book, because also similar with that breastfeeding, sort of damned if you do damned if you don't, as well, you know, as a mother, you might feel so ashamed to try to breastfeed your kid in public. But then you'll be, like, equally ashamed to go and buy it in a formula. There's no winning in our society, you can't do the right thing. So yeah, I just wanted I guess, to include a little reality where kind of bubbles under the surface of the rest of her story. And it's not the be all end all, but it's quite, I would say, it's quite realistic for the story, which I think is helpful for young women because, like, I'm a 90s, baby my, like growing up seeing moms in media, it was like Rachel on friends. Yeah. Babies represented like they would come into the apartment and just look at this baby sleeping in the cot by itself and like, Oh, that's a cute baby. Like, that is so not what happened for me, baby. Well, why wasn't Rachel contact? Nothing? Or like having vomit all over her? Like, where was your reality? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I'm having my first baby. I just was so oblivious. I had no idea what to expect. So, yes, a bit of reality, I think is nice. Yes, I can relate to that. It's like you see people with babies and you hear you hear stories and and you just have no, you really have no idea, do you? Like even if someone tells you, you don't really even listen, because you're just not even in that headspace. Like, you just don't take it in. And that's probably how human race continues to reproduce. If you really took it in and you knew what it would be like, you might not want to do that. That's just surgery. Want to ask you just you just piqued my interest with something with marigold in the book. Does she copy any flack from other characters in the book about her choice to be the witness? Yes. So she does not actually tell her husband, her husband and her have quite a toxic relationship. So she's sort of jumped at the opportunity to move in with this doctor to help his child. But she tells her husband, she's just a live in nanny, because she knows he would be, you know, really weirded out by that. And within the actual household that she moves into. He also has a sort of housekeeper that helps with cooking and stuff while he works. And she's very judgmental of marigolds. So she's, you know, sort of like, you're getting paid, you know, this obscene amount of money to lay around breastfeeding a baby. So she thinks it's just ridiculous and thinks they should have tried harder to find the right formula and all this sort of thing. So yeah, she definitely faces quite a lot of backlash. And also sort of she has an inner dialogue going, this is just bizarre, like, what am I doing? I've just lost a baby. And now I'm in someone else's house, breastfeeding their baby who's pretty much the same age as what her baby would have been at that point. So yeah, it's a very conflicting position she's in. Yeah, that would be Yeah, like she she would she'd just think this is really weird. What am I doing and made me feel really uncomfortable physically about doing it, but then at the same time, it would just give us so much. I don't know, comfort, I guess. But at the same time, could be also then. A bit weird to that she's imagining it's her own child. I don't know. There's so many. Yeah, there, isn't it? Yeah, there are definitely little moments like that. And it's been so touching. I've had a few reviews from mothers that have read it. And you know, I've had one who is breastfeeding, I believe her toddler. And she was just like, oh my gosh, I feel so seen like, I've never read a book where that you actually, you know, the actual latching on and everything like you actually know what the baby's doing. I've never read that. And I was like, that's amazing. And I had another review, which just made me cry or mother that has two healthy kids, but she lost a baby in between them. And she was just, you know, so thankful that I included that in the story and I've been careful not to. I guess I didn't delve too deeply into it because I haven't experienced it myself. So I was really hesitant to go far into one What happened, you know, kind of doesn't really say exactly what happened. It's really in the background. But I have tried really hard to include, you know, the emotions of what she's gone through. And the most important part for me was giving her a story where she finds purpose again, she finds happiness. And although you know, the pain of that will never go away. She does continue on in her life, which hopefully is comforting for people. Because it's such such a common thing that women go through. And it's not. Isn't I've never read it in a book personally. So yeah, just think that argument is fantastic. Good. Only fintona? Did you did you feel torn at any stage about not writing it in that way? Would you think that this is I'm doing it like this? I was told there was a little while where I thought, you know, I haven't experienced this. Maybe it's the wrong thing to write about it. You know, maybe she gave her baby up for adoption or something like that. But then I thought, you know, there's, there's a lot more women that can relate to this story. And it would be I think, a lot more helpful for women, if that's just what happens. So just stuck with it. And hopefully, I've done it justice. It sounds like from the from the feedback you've had that's really positive. Well done, that's awesome. So tell us where people can get the book. Yes. So right now it's available on Amazon. So it's available as a Kindle ebook, or it's available as a paperback so you can get either format. And I'm this year, I'm getting it into a few more physical stores in Brisbane, it will be available at a little shop called marigold house coincidentally. So that was a very happy coincidence and that it'll be available from next week there that's in the gap in Brisbane. And then yeah, hopefully a few more physical bookstores as the year goes on, which is exciting. Fantastic. Marigold milk, buy a list of mine on Amazon. Yeah, that's where it is. Awesome. Well, I'll put some hyperlinks in the show notes so people can click away and Oh, great. Awesome. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. It's really lovely. It was lovely. To talk to an adult. It's really it's been a lovely experience for me just to be able to do something about my children. Happy first day of school. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Hello artistic/creative mum!! Thank you so much for agreeing to be a guest on the podcast. I cant wait to meet you and chat. Here are the general talking points for each episode. As my chats are quite organic, we may not end up talking about every one of these, and some may not apply to you or your art form. Most of these topics will come up just while we are chatting and I will ask specific questions when needed. Of course I am more than happy to chat about your own business and any other topics you wish. Artist Info Tell us about yourself, your art form, what you create, style, mediums you use. I am really interested to get to you as an artist, before we start talking about your children. How did you get started, influences, why this artform, were you a creative child, what sparked your interest, any study you have done in art etc. Family info Tell us about your family, children, ages, (names are optional) Share as much or as little as you wish. Day to day What does your art life look like today? Hours you are able to spend, challenges, pros and cons How do you juggle it all? How do your children fit into this? Any tips you can share or things you wish you had known? Did you need to find new ways to work so you could continue creating? Support Do you/did you have others in your art circle that have had this experience? Do you or have you had role models about how to juggle creating art and the demands of parenthood? Do you/did you have a support network around you? How did that/does that affect your work/art/creativity? Being a mum Did having a child/becoming a mother influence or inform your work? This one is not about the day to day logistics, more about the emotions that came up that might have manifested in your work "Mum guilt" Do you believe in the concept of "mum guilt"? a) when it comes to your art and b) general life. Do you feel differently about mum guilt depending on what you are doing? eg art or normal life? Yes/No/Why? Discuss - this is one of my favourite topics What triggers your mum guilt? (if you feel it) Identity How did the concept of your own identity change when you became a mum? Is it important to you to be "more than a mother"? eg - you are also your own person, artist, wife, daughter etc If so, how do you give yourself time and space to do/feel this this? What are your thoughts around this? Is it important to you to continue your art/own interests? Is it important to you that your children see that you do more than just the mothering role? Value of your art/creativity We're not talking about the monetary value of your work here, but the importance you place on your creating. If you don't bring money into your household with your creative work, does that diminish the value of it in your eyes? How do you feel about how society sees the value of (mother) artists contributions? Cultural Norms When you were growing up, what sort of a mother was your own mother expected to be? Did society expect her to focus only on her family and home roles? How did that effect you as a child and then growing up and how you approached your own parenting? I'm in Australia so Im really interested in how other cultures have expereienced this. Anything else An opportunity for you to share anything additional t hat is important to you, or to promote yourself. Future What projects are you working on or have coming up? Where can people find you online? Social etc Other notes You can be as honest as you want on my podcast, swearing is okay too. If any conversations arise that may trigger others I will put a warning on the episode. Conversely, you don’t have to be honest, please don’t feel that you have to share anything that you don’t feel comfortable sharing. You will have approx 3-4 days before I finalise editing of your episode. If you recall anything that you would like removed please let me know before this time and I will be happy to do so. Before chatting, if you have any topics that are definitely off limits, please let me know and I will be happy to oblige Please allow 1.5 to 2 hours to record. It might not take that long, but just in case! I like to chat ;) You don't need any fancy recording gear, just a webcam and its built in mic is enough. You can use headphones if you wish. If you do have fancy gear, that's awesome! I take snippets of video to make short promo vides. If you would prefer me not to do this for your episode please let me know. Feeling nervous is natural, just approach it like we are having a nice relaxed chat - because that is exactly what we are doing :) Although not a topic I ask guests directly about, the subject of mental health comes up more often than not. If you feel comfortable talking about your experience please do so. I have had my own personal experience with post natal depression and anxiety, and feel comfortable talking about the subject, PLEASE SEND ME - promo photos that I can share. This can be of you, an example of your work, your family/children, anything that you would like to represent you. Any number from 1-5 is great, and at least one that shows your face is awesome. a list of the materials/ equipment you use in your practice. I like to compile a list and provide links for listens to purchase or research further if they wish. an artistic bio, any special awards or upcoming events you would like mentioned in your show notes. You can send these before or after your episode is recorded. SOCIAL MEDIA Your episode will go live on a Friday. Leading up to this I will post the following on my instagram and facebook accounts: Wednesday - Introduction using supplied photo + audio Thursday - Quote tile Friday - Out Now image tile / audio Sunday - Reel - supplied photos + audio Tuesday - Quote tile for examples of these check out my instag ram I will tag you in each, feel free to share or repost on your socials, it certainly helps to spread the word to new listene rs. I will also make a short video using raw footage from our recorded interview, to share with exclusive content subscibers on my email list. (if you dont want this please let me know) You will also have a dedicated landing page for your episode, which is a great place to direct listeners to, if you would like this link for your website or socials please let me know, or you can extrapolate it here: eg www.alisonnewman.net/podcast-eps/ firstname-lastname From time to time I post previous guests’ quotes so you may notice yourself pop up again months down the track. I enjoy taking relevant quotes and sharing them around a theme on my socials. FOR MUSICIANS I break the interview into ‘chapters’ separated by a short 10-15 seconds music grab. I have an APRA AMCOS licence to use copy righted music on the podcast. If you are happy for me to use yours please send me the links where I can purchase or download. If you know of anyone who would like to be a guest on the show, please let me know. I love chatting to mums I have never met, from all creative backgrounds and from all around the world. Thank you for being involved in my podcast, I can’t wait to chat. If you have any queries or questions please let me know, I want you to feel comfortable and happy with your involvement. Alison x alsone765@gmail.com www.alisonnewman.net 0422 458 336 Take a listen to the podcast here

Gerda Moser - Kindler Hungarian born flautist, composer and pianist S2 Ep34 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Gerda Moser-Kindler is a flutist, pianist, composer, producer and mother of 1 based in Saltzburg, Austria. Gerda was born and raised in Hungary where music came naturally to her as both of her grandparents from her mother’s side were classical musicians and music was all around her during childhood. Gerda decided very early on in her life that she was going to be a professional musician. She moved to Austria to study Flute at the Mozarteum University and fell in love with the city. After playing classical, jazz and even flute beatbox concerts for many years, she started to produce music for theatre and film. In 2020 she released her debut album “The Fragrance Of Memories”, which is a genre-bending experience between neo-classical, folk and new age, and 2 singles Deceptive Lights released in 2021 and Prayer for a Child in 2020 under the guise of Szintra Gerda enjoys playing instruments from all around the world including the Hungarian Water Reed Pipe, Native American flute , and Dizi Bamboo Flute from China . She creates music from the Hungarian folk, new age, mediation, fantasy and neo classical genres, and describes her core genre as melancholic neoclassical. **This episode contains discussion about premature birth** Gerda website / Instagram Listen to her music Spotify and itunes ArtFeeders Podcast - instagram / website Gerda’s music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in. My guest today is guelder masa Kindler. ganda is a flutist pianist, composer, producer, and a mother of one based in Salzburg in Austria. Ghana was born and raised in Hungary where music came naturally to her as both for grandparents from my mother's side were classical musicians and music was all around her during her childhood. gelded aside decided very early on her life as she was going to be a professional musician. She moved to Austria to study flute at the Mozarteum University and fell in love with the city. After playing classical jazz, and even flute beatbox concerts for many years, she started to produce music for theatre and film. In 2020, she released her debut album, The fragrance of memories, which is a genre bendy experience between neoclassical folk and new age, and she since released two singles, deceptive lights in 2021, and prayer for a child. In 2020. She releases her music under the name of Sintra gather enjoys playing instruments from all around the world, including the Hungarian WaterAid pipe, Native American flute, and the ditzy bamboo flute from China. She creates music from the Hungarian folk, New Age, meditation, fantasy, and neoclassical genres, and describes her core genre as melancholic neoclassical. This episode contains discussion around premature birth. Good, good evening. To you and good morning for me. We have 9am Wow. And it is cold and a little bit also dark so. Oh, you're in Austria. Now. We born in Hungary? Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. I'm here still. 9099 it's, this is 21 years ago. I moved here to study. And since I'm living here, and it wasn't planned to stay here, but I met my husband and I also got easier job here. So I stayed. And I love to live in Zionsville This is a very special unique city, you know, Mozart, really old houses from 1412. Something like this. In light of nature, a lot of nature. A lot of culture. A lot of shops. Munich, just two hours from here, Vienna just three hours from here. So it's also really good. Good to live. Very expensive. Very, very expensive to live. Yes, it's for artists, not maybe the best city. But well, I am here and I stay here I think yeah. Oh, that's lovely. So tell us about all the different instruments you can play. I've been following your, your stories on your Instagram account with all the instruments. Well, basically, I'm playing the flute. I will start if I was nine years old, and I got really classical normal musical education. And I wanted to play the oboe. Yeah. And in the country side in the small town. Yes, we are sorry, we don't have the teacher for this. And then I had to change my mind. Okay, what can I play? Okay, woodwind. It's cool. Because after that you can play in the, in the brass band for children. And then I started to play the flute. But if I was, I was 13, I think I decided to be a professional musician. I want to make this and then you have to play the piano, of course. And then I started to get piano lessons. And I really loved it. And I I had a great teacher at the university too. So I made I was I made the education for being a flute teacher. And then it's also important that you can company your students a little bit. Yeah, so I had the piano lessons. And I was really, really good in piano and my teacher asked me, don't you want to make also piano teaching education? And I said, Okay, I would really love it. But I know have time to practice both instruments. Yeah, in that high level, it's not possible so I didn't do it. And well, I have different fluids of course, I bought in China Aditi This is a Chinese a Chinese bamboo flute. And I I bought a bass TT from sandalwood. And they send me to Australia. Yes, please track your order and say Welcome Hi. So great. Your fluid is arrived in Sydney and I oh gosh, know what, it's Austria and Australia. Story I never thought but this is a real story. It happens it happens. So I got the flute three I think three or four months later later and I had to write to the shop and they know this is not true. They are not key or DC surely the delivery post office is somewhere else. And then I got the packet and there was the address. They send it really to Australia. So it was from so this is why special connection to Australia. And and yes I also have a Hungarian wood flute from Plum. Oh wow. So this this is a folk instrument. And the newest baby is an American Native flute. This is a double barrel shortcut and yeah, it was cool. I always try to buy a flute this is not so high. I love this sound from bass. But I have two small hands and two small fingers and the most of the flutes are too big and the holes are too wide. And so I have two problems with this Chinese based easy to play I get to appear it's it's not really good to play for me. And this Native American flute has an accompany just a drone sound always the same. And the other side with your fingers. You can also play the melody and yes, this is a daughter spirit to sound I really Love and I get a lot of great feedbacks. So I think I have to buy another flute also the same it is on 4032 Hertz. Yeah this is the resonance from the earth. Yes, yes. Yes. So this is the the next plan the wider next Instagram it sounds like perfect you know it just has that beautiful you can just close your eyes and it is it's a connection to the earth. It's just amazing. I just love it. Yes, the sacred is reverb. Yeah, yeah speed out. It's true. I got the booklet to it and also a DVD. Really high professional. It's a great shop and in the big booklet you can read it it is highly recommended to put a reverb because without it's just a little bit I don't know the word in English not wet dry. It is so dry and you cannot feel this flying away and all this thing and and I make my experiences the last video was too much reward. I played next video with that it was a little bit too much but you can play with it and and change then the the whole sound from it. Yeah. And yes, meditation music. Yes, I think it's also I think for my future for my nearly future yet I'm really interested in Yeah, I listened to some of you your music and your name of Sintra, Sintra, Sintra, Roma, Sintra, it is maybe an English Sintra? I have a very hot air like a pair. Yeah. Okay. I really enjoyed listening to that to do so you, you play all the instruments yourself, you play your piano and then you do layer on top of your with your other instruments. Yes, I always play the piano. I always play the piano. It is never computer made something. It is a computer sound. And I have a Clavinova an electric piano I can control with. I can connect with my computer. But I always play by myself. And the rest is of course this is an an instrumental music orchestra music. I'm trying now for my second album to make a chamber orchestra not this always this really big thing. And these instruments are usually computer instruments are not not not a real violin. I know some of the people for example, in Bogota in Colombia, Colombia, you could play for me and send the audio but then you have lots of people and you have to to have a budget for this and I don't have the money to pay a whole orchestral base. So this is difficult and I had an opera singer yeah at the first album in the Peace friends a know her and she was coming to us from grads This is another city to us desire to work and be paid the travel coast and and and everything for her and of course Gaza but what does it mean the money if you get the boat The payment for the test. Yeah, you know. And she was really singing live we had a studio for this we paid for the studio with the audio engineers. And and she was really singing. And I had a guitarist. He's teaching at them your motorhome at the university. This was live and a contra bass. Because I also wanted something really warm, natural, basic. But it was it was the last order or rest is too much money. Yeah. Not still I don't have it. Maybe in the future. I can say yes. I would like to have this orchestra or this. Yeah. Yes. To have dreams and goals. Like, you know, in the future. It might happen. But you know, it's good. Yes, yes, yes. You can think about it and meditation and to manifest it in your mind. And yep, it will, it will happen. Absolutely. You got to put it out there. You've got to you've got to make it feel like it's real. And then it can come to yours. Yeah, for sure. So you decided very early on when you were 13 that you were going to do music as your career, you were pretty sure that music was going to be a big part of your life from a very, I had the problem that I was interested in several things. I loved sport and I wanted to be a karate master with six. And my parents said no, you have to learn German. Okay. Okay. I started to learn in kindergarten with three years because the half of my family, the family from my father. The roots are German. And I was really interested in drawing and painting. Literature, write stories. And then yes, of course music too. And in half in Hungary, we have a system you have to decide really early. But you would be like in the future and you are 14 and this is too early, I think. But you have to decide to change to the gym, to a higher school, from primary school with 12. And then if you if I was 14, I, I changed for the special school for music. And I think I'm not sure my grandparents from mother's side were musicians too. And they died both if I was in the primary school. My grandfather if I was nine, when I was nine and my grandmother I think I was 11 and before she died, she sent me a message. Please never stopped to make newzik Also if is just the whole pay for you. Because newzik makes life beautiful. And I didn't understand it really as a child but I knew that this is something really important. It has to be important if she won to say to me before she died, and I think it was just the strongest feeling inside the strongest connection from all the other things I like and and history and I don't know, yes. But music was always next to me and inside of me and and I decided to me, for me, and not everybody was really happy musician's life is really hard. And my mom also knew it from from the parents. Yeah. But they always supported me. And then I jumped in and I, I had to swim from that was no stopping. Yeah, yes. Yeah, that's a beautiful memory to have with your grandmother with that message that she gave to you to hold on to and, you know, if you're ever I don't know, if you're ever having moments where you're, you're sort of not sure what to do or you know, you're struggling you can you always have that just to fall back on not always keeps you going. Yes, yes, yes. I didn't have a lot of time with them. I was a small kid. And I just started to play the flute. And my grandfather died. And my grandmother lived in the capitol in Budapest, and we, the countryside, but I had the opportunity to visit her sometimes. And then I had to take the flute and stand in the living room, and you're playing now and what you have to do on stage and how you have to say it, and what's right, what's not how you have to communicate with your audience. I could learn a little bit from her. And it was it was not, not a long time. Not much time with her but really significant. She was a singer. And she had this holding your body proud. You are a woman, you are an artist. You go outside, and you do this now. Perfect. Not somehow you do it. Perfect. So again and again. And again. It's not enough. Not Not it's not good. Again, please. I stood there. Oh, Gosh, gosh, so serious. Okay, now I have to do it. I can do it. And this few times with her. It helped me so much. So locked in after that. And I really not recognized that. It was inside planned inside and I had it. I had it. So it was really important. Yeah, that's wonderful. I lost my grandma. We called her Nana when I was 10. So around the same age. Yes. And she was the first one that bought us our first we used to play the organ. So like the two two keyboard organ she was the first one that bought bought it for my sister and when we when we were kids, so yeah, I've got that similar connection where she she didn't play. But she was sort of recognized that, you know, we had we had an interest in music and sort of helped her to foster that. So yeah, I remember hearing when many I like I write songs about her and you know, she's influenced me even though she's been gone for so long. But yeah, yes, it can hold really long. Yes. And maybe it's it's too early. The information is too early maybe now. But you can you can save it somewhere and if the time now, right? Yeah, okay. It comes out and you have it and you feel it and you know it. Oh my gosh, it was because of this now I understand. And Thank you grandma. System message from the past. Yes. That's lovely. I love that. How many children do you have? I have one a daughter. She's four years old. And her name is Camilla. That's a beautiful name. Yes, I slept for a very long time. No, I, I wanted a name for her. You can speak out in Hungarian and also in German too, and you don't get troubles because a lot of Hungarian names are complicated to speak in German. And you change the letters and it sounds totally different and this is not the Hungarian name. And I also wanted that you can write it in Hungarian. And you are able to read it right in German. So a key usually you you you you use C for Camilla but I've write with write her name with Hungarian with key so ca Mila so it was not easy to find like this. But it was a it was a really interesting talk on the TV a Hungarian talk with different woman's women I don't know psychologic and and issues about how to work and being woman something like this. And one of the guests had this name Camilla. And it was written then underline and I read it and yes, yes. I have it. It was also a bit strange but I thought okay, Camilla Moser Kindler This has also a read and everybody can speak it out and write it and yes yes, this was the story. Oh, I love that. So Did you know Did you know you were having a girl or did you have a boy's name picked out as well just in case you had a boy and the first few months I thought to get a boy and I started also to search but because I have a chore German last name Kindler and my husband has has an Austrian name Moser I, I wanted to have a Hungarian name for the first name and it it was not possible to find a boy name. You can spell it the same and speak out in the same way in in German. So I was okay this is a covey law. Yes. Thank you. It worked out perfect goodness. Yes, it was a problematic parts to find a name for a boy Yeah. When you were pregnant with Camilla we're still playing? Yes, yes. I had a really comfortable unproblematic pregnancy i i made sporty Lian with her so just pregnancy program. And she also liked it. I felt inside that she she liked to move and have extra and I also was teaching till the end. It was a little bit difficult in the sevens moms to lie laying down on the floor, for example, and to show some of the brief exercises for flute Yes, something like this, it was not really possible to breathe. So you know, as a singer Well, where are my volume? And I headed it? No, it's the baby inside. And that was a at the time. I didn't play concerts anymore. So I didn't have these gigs and concerts, but I was teaching and yes, it was not a problem for me. Yeah, great. Yeah. I like to whenever I get in a musician, a singer or you know, like in your case with the woodwind I love to talk about hey, how you went when you're pregnant? It's just it's just so funny. Like you try and breathe and there's like no room to breathe like your diaphragm is hiding under this somewhere you can't access the breath. Yes, you are used to have this speak for human you know you this take you for seven liters in the lung and then what what I can can do it. Oh my gosh, so it was uncomfortable. It was it was nerve racking too. And I started to eat something really stupid things I really don't like you know and then you think oh my gosh, why I like to eat this now. I hated my whole life. And I have to eat this now and it is delicious. It's so crazy. Is the cravings after my pregnancy I stopped to eat this different stretch legs so that that was that was it was not a problem? After you had Camila How long was it before you're able to start playing again we you obviously you might not have been go out and do shows or gigs. But were you able to to use your music as sort of a way to transition yourself I suppose into that change of life. At the first time. I wasn't able to make music. I had to stop with everything. Camila came also two months earlier. Oh, she was she was a preemie. And we had to stay with her in the intensive care unit for two months. And we had a totally different start after that at home. Yeah. And where the flute is a really loud instrument. So if you are practicing like a typical classical musician, it will be loud. And it was not possible with a baby. Yeah, it were too loud for her. So I I kept just one student a week at certain malls I think. Yeah, from November so the first three months really nothing. Not to touch the piano not to see not to find my flute. Where is my flute? What is a flute? Let's let me sleep please. Where is the bed? Where is my coffee? Oh my gosh, three days over. I have to take a shower and wash my hair. And each second hour you have to feed your baby and take the change the nappies and this this was the program and and I think after the after three months at home at home. Camilla came in summer, and we were able to go home at the end of August. So at the beginning of of autumn and then I think just before we Before winter, I started to play again a little bit piano because I I had this problem, I lost connection to music fully. And it was totally important to me to keep somehow the connection. And then I, I pushed the baby bed from the sleeping room to the living room. There was my piano at the really very early morning at five e when everybody is sleeping, and everything, just quiet, and peace. And she was next to my piano. So I had the control what's happening, but she she was slipping. And I took my headphones and turn on my piano and just tried to play something. Yeah, to close my eyes and Okay. Oh, nice. This is F sharp. Okay, nice. Maybe I would like to play more. You know? And these were the magical moments for me to feel okay, it's not everything lost. Yeah, yeah, music is here for you. And you, you can you can take the hand from music and, and she or he is here. And and then I started to compose, but it was not not planned that I will write pieces and I will release my first album. Not at all, it was really just trying to stay somehow inside of my own very special word. And to play the flute and teach more, it's still a problem. Yeah, problem. So I had sometimes shortcakes for example, a request, please, I composed a cool piece in medieval style, with hand pants and guitar, and you could play something with the flute, just an improvising. And it's free and cool. And you can create something without this pressure from classical. You have to play the Mozart exactly like this. And you will have to practice three weeks before each day four hours. So I was really happy to get these opportunities from some of the musician friends. But it was it was so regulary continuous to have concerts. It's it's still not not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you sort of feel like that. That's sort of on hold at the moment until Camila gets a bit older, and then you might be able to go back into it. Do that a little bit more. Hopefully, yes, I'm trying. I mean, she will be five in summer. So she's not a small child. She She is really active and and a really hard character, you know, from the beginning, from the beginning, from the first week after her birth. And I think I have also give her the freedom to be a free child and not just always you have to stay next to me and I have to save you because you were a preemie on oh my gosh, you are a small child. No. Yeah. She is a strong personality and she she has a small body She's a child but but the mind and the soul. She is an own being. And I think this is also really important. And I'm trying now to look that we can live longer in the kindergarten a little bit longer, that I can also have more time in the morning next to household washing Cool, okay, go to the post and older things I really hate. Yeah. So, so much time, I could compose, I could practice, I could have a meditation, I could create something really cool, you know, and oldest things, I hate it, it is just a lot of rat of really good time is over, and I'm cooking for two hours, you know, really good, delicious two hours in the kitchen, then your family come and eat it in 10 minutes. And they say thanks, bye. Yeah, everything leaves there, you have to clean. I have to put the rest in the fridge. And in 10 minutes to two hours work in 10 minutes is everything over and the next day you can start again. So I hate it. And I am struggling with it all the time. I know it is. It's important. You have to do it. And I love to have order everywhere, then I am. I'm calm and I'm feeling well, is everything order. So with a four years old child is not so easy. So I'm just put here and put there and I come back to the living room and oh my gosh, I can't start again. And yeah, so this is this, this is still the problem. But if she can say longer in the kindergarten, then I have also more time. So I can organize from eight or half past eight to practice the flute till the till 10 Then make a short break and then compose for example, then to cook and then I can pick up my, my daughter and afternoon. Yeah, it's no stress anymore to think oh my god, I have to do this and this and this and this and this. Because we don't have food in the fridge. I would like to have something to dinner for my daughter one but nah, son without Banaras. And yes, we are on it with my husband to to organize it again, and start to build it with the time that we both have more time for working. It's also a financial question. So you cannot stay for four long years. With two hours work a day. It is not possible. Yeah, it's tricky balance, isn't it? It's Yes, yes, yes, these elements have to come together. That it's that you, you're still making music a priority in your life. Like it's so important to that you're you're trying to make it work. And that's fantastic. You know, I think that's because I decided to be a musician to become a musician. I did it my whole life. So this is the normal situation for me and for my mind and for my body. So I miss it. I think something is wrong. Yeah, you know, and, and this is also the way who I can how I can show my feelings, and also how I can work with it. It's it happened something sad or some something wrong. I can write it out. And I can send it also to other people also on Instagram. I have a great community from a lot of really excellent musicians and such lovely people. They say thank you, you write this song realize and yes, I'm feeling some of the stupid person did something really wrong to you? And yes, I had the same experience with somebody else. Yeah. And it's cool that you can show show this in your music and thank you for this. And it's such a good feeling. Yeah, it's really it's amazing. The connection That music creates between people like it's just, it's just amazing. That's one of my favorite things about music, all sorts of music is just the relationship builds and the connections you create with people. It's just it's wonderful. I love it. Yes, and you don't have to speak the accent. Make language so you can just sing and I can play the flute. And other can play the piano and we don't need the sheets and everything. And and we have fun, we have fun and we have immediately the connection and everybody around us can feel this positive energy and this one. So music is magic and I'm really, really thankful that I was able to learn music and and also a lot of thank you to my parents. They said, You go now that a music school, my child point. So I was too young, to SD I would like to end the no I don't like and next week, oh, maybe I would like you know, you are too young to decide. So significant things. And it was also a big part from my parents. Also, if I was I think 1010 or in or 12 I had this teenager week. I don't like to make music anymore. And I'd finished and I want to go out and have party be the others and like this. I had to practice inside and the other children was outside and had had fun and played. And my mother said, Hey, know, if you started something, you have to finish it. And if you finished it, you can start something new. I was totally angry, you know, I pushed it or something like well, I hate you all. And after a week, I was so thankful because I went again to this brass orchestra for children is breast band. And there were my friends and and the whole community. And I was so thankful that my parents didn't allow me just because I have now they think my hormones are good for them. Does your daughter Camila? Is she musical boy? Yeah, yes. My husband is hip hop and breakdancer. Oh right? Yes. And if she was small like one years, two years old. We visited a lot of hip hop events or soul break events open air with circa and jazz to showcase from others and after the workshop and she was always there and she could look and she could try so it was new music and dance immediately connected. And of course I played the piano and it was allowed always it is always allowed to go to the piano turn on and play if she want and she could play with me together we have a beautiful fruit photo from her I think she was maybe two years old with this small legs you know the short hair the little finger and sit on the piano and just push you know and she's such a happy girl and you think yes this this is a good way but I'm not pushing. Yeah, she's also have a simple flute. You know this? Yes, yes. And it's almost broken because she did it with the t zero. This is from vote. Nevermind I can buy another fluid but She played it just the one, the one, sour, something like this, and running in the room from other side with the flute, and play the piano. And we bought a sono tram. This is a beautiful small instrument you can also have also with fingers, and also with the stakes in C major and you can play the pentatonic, so it is really harmonique or so forth Chai for children, and you don't have to, to be able to read the sheet or something like this. She's She really like it. And I have a loop machine yet. And yesterday, my daughter asked, Hey, what is this, I want to try this now. And I said, Oh my gosh, this is technique. And it's really a long time ago, I used it I don't remember. So you have to ask your daddy. And they played it here in the living room. And she hold the microphone, and just saying some of the children from kindergarten. This mouse really Mouse voice, but totally serious standing with the microphone. And then of course loop you can hear it again but today and try it. And I tried to make a small recording and the photo and she told me Hey, mom go away. This is just a geek from Darien May. No photos, no videos, just leave. This is a geek from Darien five. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry to disturb you. And yes, sometimes I also start to say, Come on, we do something. But usually she can do it free if she want. And it is also important to give her the possibility to try things. And to see new music is something really natural and normal. And also so important. And if she if she would like in the future, she can play an instrument. Or she can dance. But it's not important to me that she will be also a professional. Yeah. Yeah. You want to you wanted to come to it, because she wants to come to it not because you feel like you're forcing her and then you know, she might not enjoy it, then she feels like she has Yes, I know this, this situation from from this Western musical culture is really strong and hard. I had the same you you have to practice and you have to play all the things exactly like this. And it's also important to learn how you can work effective and really, really learn things and not just oh, I don't like it today. I don't don't do it today and three weeks away and you never touch it fluid. So it won't be work. But I think it's more important for all at the beginning to wake up the love for this. And and to check. Oh, it can make me so much fun. I can have fun with it. And this is not something I have to do because my mom wanted but I don't want it so I had more students, pupils in the in the music school. Kids from the primary school. So from from six to 1214 they really liked me. Yeah. But they, they didn't want to learn flute. They wanted to be in a soccer club for years, or be an artist in circles, you know, something totally different, but the parents wanted it. Yeah. And this is I think this is not the good way. So I definitely agree with that. Definitely You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I was singing. With your composing, does Camilla influence the work that you make? Oh, well, at the end now, I think yes, but at the time I start to compose my own stuff. It was 2017 it was just the board to keep connection. Yeah. And in my music, it wasn't really message inside it, it was just the feeling just a moment just lie, it's just colors. And I named it the fragrance of memories. So of course, there were a lot of memories in this music. But it didn't recognize really what I'm doing. And it was not yes, I want to say this and this and this with my music. In a certain year, if, when she was three years old, I, I felt this it became everything so clear. I turned also 40 Maybe it is significant here in lot of in the life from lots of woman, I don't know. But for me, it was I was before from the beginning, Camila was born, I felt in such a monotone spirit, what a desert. You know, it was everything monotone. Without art without imposes, it's just baby and you and you have to do this and this and all the time the circle. And and repeat and repeat repeat. And 2020 It was 2020 it was for a lot of people a terrible year. But for me personally, it was one of the best years because my mind opened it to the universe. And I got a lot of input it was just if your mind is standby, you know it's nothing happen. And to get the USB inside and the good Digga Digga, digga, Digga, digga Digga Digga informations you get it now. And you'll have it now on your computer. And and then I felt I'm on a new higher level, my personality and I am a new person now. And I know what I want and feeling everything much stronger and clearer. Also the people around me and also the energy from the people. So I could decide much faster. It is a person it's good for me. Or please leave. It's not good. And it's star that then we did that the second variable I started to compose new pieces. And it happened the first time to that I am sit down and wrote the whole thing. Yeah, in in 20 minutes or 10 minutes from the beginning to the end. And then I could stand up and say okay, it's finished. I said what I want okay, I know this is just a skeleton. Yes, I know. I have to write the harmony and orange more and blah blah blah, blah, blah. But this the strong feelings. Exactly. Yes. I don't know. Lies or true. Reflections self reflection for example, this feelings became really present and this is influenced in the next album is each each piece has exactly demotic and it is an exact story but happened to me and from about I'm speaking or I'm playing in this space yes yeah well have you got other people around you over there in Salzburg sort of going through the same thing having children and trying to keep creating their music not really. Unfortunately not. I had a friend she plays the piano, but she is furious older than me and she got married and got her children much earlier than me. And then we lost connection she became a mom from two children and I just lived my life and my concepts and oldest stuff and I I was an old mom because I became 37 When my daughter was born and other musicians with children the children are already in the primary school their seventh or eighth is not a not a shoe anymore. And some of the other are still not married and don't have children so they are working a lot and maybe they also don't want to have this family life just to create and make and the weekends are free and we can go out to make party also during the week isn't a problem or to have a trip somewhere. So for me it was not easy and I didn't know who I could manage how can things work? The only way for me was to stop totally everything and wait a few years. A few more years I hope just a few years yes that it work again. Yes. What how you said that Camilla is in she in preschool? Is what year do they how old are the kids when they start primary school over there a prime primary school she can start when she's six when she's six. Yeah. When she's six. So I think one and a half years one or two years on then then she can start yes but I hope I get it earlier I hope I got it earlier because I I'm feeling from time to time to go crazy. You know this this this just sitting and and not to create and not to do what what is inside and I have to give it out and it's really important to me from for my mental health and my physical health to Yeah, that that that I can do it? Yes. Yeah. I don't know about you when I when I don't get to create what I want. If I don't get the time. I get really impatient. And I just start to get like like, Don't poke the beer like yes. Is The topic of mum guilt I'm not sure if that's a term that you familiar with, or if you use that term in Austria, or Germany I, I Googled it. I had to look for it. I asked my husband because he has a really good English but he was looking like mama wat Yes, I understand it. We don't use this this in German and also not in Hungarian. But yes, this is a very important, a very important topic. Yes. And I have my problems too with it, of course. So it is. Well, I told already, in the first two years, it was not a problem because I didn't work. So it was yes, okay. This is my responsibility. Now I have a child and I decided to have a child, it was a really hard decision to be a mom. But after that, I started to teach a little bit more and bid my first album and compose and recording something all this stuff then I felt and still now often under under a lot of pressure and a lot of pressure. How can I manage this i Okay, I have to prepare for this lesson. Because I have a new student and I have to practice because I have to play something with the student. But my daughter comes to me and say Please, mom, I would like to draw with you. Or we build something with Lego. And it is really hard for me to to keep the balance who I can manage everything on the day. It is it is necessary to do for the household that our family can rums Yeah, yeah. Then what the what is necessary that I can work, I can make my job. And then I would love to make Oh, something with my daughter because I wanted to have her. So it is not about Yes. Okay. I have now child and and outside, you know, for the social life? Yes, she is married and she has a child everything. Okay. You know, I wanted to have a child and then I would like to take also the time to visit her. It's still a big problem. It's still a big problem. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's one of those things, everyone that I speak to, on these podcasts and everyone I speak to in life, it's the same thing. It's the same stories that are how do we balance it? How do we get how do we get it right? And it's just a constant, constant struggle, I think is the best way to describe. I think if you are a woman, your goal was to build a family and to to get children then this is for you to paradise. This is your life and your whole thing and I respect all the woman they they are able to do it. Yeah, this is a huge word. And it's so much energy and always be there for everything. But I think if if you are an artist, artists are usually free souls. So you need I need a lot of time alone for myself in quietness. If nobody speaks, and I can hear the silence, and then I can start to hear inside my own thoughts and ideas, and it takes time, it takes time. And I think then you get this problems and this struggling, because you, you don't want to lose the connection. Also not to yourself, This is you, you are an artist, you have such of ideas. And like a butterfly, you know, oh my gosh, I have this idea. And now and, and. And then you have to push it down and say no, stop. This is not the time for this. But it should have this time time now to do this. And usually you do it also before. And now this is a new situation. And yes, then you have to fight each time with yourself and say no, please. You have to responsibility. And your child needs you. And she she she she needs the time and the love. You have to give it and not just to think ego and me and me and me and my friend. Yes. Belongs to find blondes. This is the biggest thing I think yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you put that very well. Yeah. I hope, very well. Identity is something I like to talk about, too, about how you feel like yourself has changed since you became a mother. Do you have any thoughts on that topic? Yes, yes. It changed really a lot for me. At the time, Camilla was born. And we landed in this intensive care unit with her. And she was just too small and too weak. But she was healthy. And she was fighting she wanted to leave. And you know, it was beautiful and great to see her grow and and be stronger with each day. But we had a lot of doctors and a lot of nurses 24 hours around us, no private life, no private moment. It was necessary to control for Camila, it was really necessary, but it was totally different. So you don't know the situation that you are no, never alone. Never. It's in each moment, a nurse can go in your room and check something with the computer for breathing. Or something like like as. And there were also a lot of other young parents with also with the cremains. And after these two moms, we were able to go home with our hair so little girl and start almost normally live. But not all the parents had this luck. Yeah, and this was something for me personally. It changed the whole thinking about life, about problems, and also about people. So before I had problems oh my gosh, I cannot go make this trip to Vienna before Christmas to shopping. Why? I don't know. Or oh my gosh, I would like to have this makeup product and this is sold out. Yeah. And after that I had to say Hello, this is a problem, it was a problem for you. Hello, wake up, there is a totally different, really real alive with real problems. So stop to yelling and make a small thing like a big elephant. So hello, this life is over, if you had your time, but now it is the time to three to to see the reality and, and think everything over and make a new thinking from everything. And this was the most significant experience for me. And after that it changed everything. Also my connection to people. So I have really not enough free time, I don't know what is free time. If if I have a little bit time, I think in really exactly which person I would like to meet and take my time. So it is it is a good time with good energy. And I'm feeling well after that. And I can take something for me and I can give you something. Do you need me really? Do you are really interested for me? Or it is just you know, usually we do it and okay, we do it again and again. And so this was the identity change in me. And also, after this moment, I realized that after that also the influence in my music. Yes. Yes. That's massive, isn't it? It's like your whole perspective. The way you saw everything just changed completely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. This was really like, clap, you know. Yeah. And you make just a few minutes and you are in a totally new world. And you you can see so much more things and other things our way and you're not even recognized because this is not important anymore. So it was also for me personally, it was a level up. It was a very hard level up. I have to say I had to work a lot with myself to handle it. From that really negative feelings to the passivity. And to check what what I'm winning with this. But but it was it was the most significant experience in the last few years. Yeah, yes. Yes. That's huge, isn't it? Yes. Well, it's funny how things happen, isn't it? Like if Camila had have been born full term gone home? You wouldn't have had that access to that like the neonatal unit you wouldn't have seen that other parents you wouldn't have had that. So you would never have maybe come to that realization that you've come to that changed everything for you. It's funny Yes. I don't think things happen just by accident. Yeah, I believe that too. i I'm sure I'm sure. Sometimes things happens if you are not ready for it but usually thinks happened if you are ready and it's so new that you you can check it wow this is not a new opportunity to make the level up and wow this is something I have to learn something now it happening something you know and a lot of people just ignore and just yelling and say oh my gosh me poor and my daughter My God Dineo natural gas a preemie but but for me I I'd say thanks God, I catch this moment and and I had all So enough energy enough power and enough courage, yeah. To say, Okay, this is a new path and please go you have to go now and don't be afraid you will alive it's it after that story with you and your daughter and his oldest this this experiences you are stronger than ever and you you will get it but if you would like to change something if you would like the true life goes on and not just the stay and stop for long years always on the same place. You have to have the courage to try these things. And I was able I tried it and I did it and I'm really happy about it Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. That's such a great story. Night the time that you keep yourself zintro Did I say that right? Yes, Sidra Sintra. Yeah, he's that. Is that a particular word in another language? Like does that mean something? In Yes, yeah. Yes, yes. cinta Cinta. It's the meaning in old Hungarian Hungarian. The beautiful goes on. This is from the time before the country was filled Hungary. Before there were a lot of more who I can say it in English. Hungarian folks, but each part had the emperor or from that, and the 777 persons. And this is from one of this time this world and I wanted to have a deep connection to my Hungarian roots, because I also have German roots, but the Hungarian is much much stronger. So I could say I'm in 98 or 99 persons I'm feeling Hungarian. And the end of the word Thrive This is from Gare de Sosin cinta and Gerda was mixed together. And I'm I'm Ryan did get on Hungarian. So Sintra. This is also a city in Spain, for example. But I'm writing it in a Hungarian way. And this is the story behind my artist name. Oh, love that. That's very creative. I tried to do my best. Well, my sister, Alfa Allison. Yes. M for my sister, Emma. And John, the Joe. So that is like, Oh, that is no. So it's not like your story is really awesome as it's designed. This is totally cool. sounds it sounds nice. Joe. Joe says it sounds great. I love it. So I didn't want to have to artists name Gerda because this is also the problem it is then Jerrica or chair there or you know you can spell it in different way and it sounds not really like for my years Yeah, no, no please I'm searching for something they've read you are a painter as well I've seen some of your lovely paintings that you've put on your Instagram. So, is that just a hobby? Or do Do you paint and sell your work as this is just a hobby I started to draw when I was four in the kindergarten so it is really early love and I did eat through my whole life till Camila came then I had to stop the and I also visited some of the workshops for aquarelle for example, but you can say on Instagram these are paint by numbers. The picture is yes it is a ready picture and you can paint it with all so this is a new thing for me I never paint it before with oil and this is also just to trying to go back and have connection again and have to be fit again with my hands and my fingers to paint something Yeah. But I I'm drawing by myself this is I could say I have to influence a little bit from Frida Kahlo. Oh yeah, this is this self portray in some way with a message inside you can read it done and you can recognize my face or yes it could be maybe yes this is scared or this is Sintra, I know this picture maybe from from Instagram, you know and I'm working on it now. And in my free time if I have time, I really like to make copy from from pictures so I see it and I try to draw it on the paper and then also usually I make something more in my style I don't like the colors and okay the eyes are too small or something like this. But I have to say I cannot really paint by myself so maybe it is also a story for the future. Yeah, I can really paint with brushes and and with oil but to draw and and then then to use colors with it. I already on and maybe I can connect it with my second album. Sounds for a booklet or for the cover. Yeah, I was already asked from some of the people oh wow, cool. What you are doing? It is it is cool for your next time, you know, okay. I can recognize and maybe think about it. Yes. Yeah, it's lovely. Can you describe the style of music sutra music? I'm making a neo classical instrumental music with a touch of melancholy it is really important for me to say it is a melancholic music. So if, if you ask me and I don't have to name a genre, and I always say I make melancholic music usually I compose it in more and also if I have a nice melody in do I change it in more because this is this is my color, brown, dark red, warm colors deep inside, inside errs, you know, not depressive, or not negative, but always with with with the soft lights, and that you can go inside and, and and I don't make happy funny music. This is really not my style. Once I did I composed music for for dance movies. Yeah, I started 2010. And after that we made with with my husband, under the name art feeders, three short movies, dance movies. And there were some of the scenes so situations for example, at the end that was needed up happily, you know, happy and music. I was also able to write it and it sounds cool. It sounds nice. But it's not the real me the real me it is always take time. Think and and go inside and search this positive darkness and warmth inside you yourself. This is this is my music and instrumental basically because I cannot sing I tried. I learned one year just singing well, yes. I loved it. But my my voice is not cool for chairs. So I have really small and thin a sound. It's nice, but I don't know, to sing all the great tests on the arts you know Ella Fitzgerald or Sarah Warren. Sarah. Yes. is my favorite. Nina Simone, you know, you need also power in your voice and I don't have it. So I stopped to sing. I'm singing just here at home with Camilla something like this. And sometimes if I have to say something I tried to write also lyrics for this in English. Yeah, then I have to have somebody they can correct that and say okay, I I understand what you would like to say but this is sorry. Nobody else will understand you. I hear my husband to say okay, I check it but nobody else will check it but you want to save it this English so and then I try to find a singer. She or he could sing it for me. Yes, yes. This is and I would like to make a meditative music. Yes, this is this is for the future. Yeah, fantastic. Yes, yes lately. Is it important to you to be more than a mother? Yeah, it is, for me personally, really important. Before I decided to be a mom, I had to think really a lot about I really want to have this now, I am sure that I'm ready to stop everything and give up for for, for a few years, my whole artistic life, and I was really afraid that I will lost everything, hmm. And also that, that people around me, reduce me from this, to this biological being, you are now a mother, you have to do this, this and this, and this, and you should not do more. And we don't want more from you. This is now what you have to do. This is your responsibility now, to be a biological being not a person, not a woman, and not an artist. And in the first few months, I felt it, I was on the road with with my baby in the pram, and you know, that people seeing in you just the mother, you will not recognize, like, like a woman. This is this is a mother with a small child. And that was and I was sure that I can hold it for a long time. This is not not a situation for me. What I want and what I like, for me was really important that people are not just saying in me, Ah, nice Barbie doll you know, with big guys and small noses and blondie. But to say okay, this girl has a brain in the head and she can use this brain and Okay, she is more than just like, like a doll we see maybe in her and I worked really hard, a lot and a long time for this. And I was afraid to lose this. And I think it's really important also to show my child and she's a girl, she will a woman should be will be a woman that she can also learn this that you are not just a female, you are a person, you are a human, you can think you can make huge, amazing beautiful things you can build everything that you want, you can be the director from the Mozart day or if you would like or you can go outside and and and work in the industry what you want. And this is really important to show. Yes, of course we have to do the household and this is usually a work for woman and and so on and so on. But also to show outside to other people. Okay, I am a mother but my life is don't go to to the end with this. Hmm so I had my life before and yes, I'm export again and I can take really cool maybe sexy clothes again. Yes, I'm not an old grandma. I'm sorry. I like makeup and I like to dress my hair and take my jewelleries and I'm back Hey, come on. I was just pregnant. I'm back here know. Yes, yes. This is important for me personally. And I have to say that I I had to fight for this. Yeah, for me and also for for the others in my nearness that they can recognize Hey, okay, she's wake up again. Ganga is back again. He's back. You Nah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. That's awesome. That is so good. And you write, like showing showing your daughter, you know, that she's got so many options in the world, you know, the world's changing and she can do you know, compared to her, her grandmother, you know or your grandmother like the things are changing as the generations? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, Austria is in several ways traditional and of thinking, also, in the path from the woman, a lot of women are able to stay at home and be a household and housewife, and stay for a longer time with children at home. But this is not my style, and nobody my family from the woman is like this, we are all strong, loud woman, and we say I want this and I do this now. And the man can say, okay, honey, you know, this is okay, how do we use to, to fight for things we want. And also in my family, I have an older sister, and no brothers, and also my father, my parents. They give me this, this education, you know, I raised up you are democratic, you are a person, you are not the girl, you are one of the family. And you can say what you would like, and please, you have to fight for your things and go for it. And go for it. And if you would like to build a house from from what command I show you here, you can do you can do it. This is the hammer and do it. Not oh my gosh, no, you are a girl go to the kitchen, you know. So this is for me a pretty normal life. That's wonderful. It's interesting. I spoke to a lady yesterday. She's She was born in China. And she's lived in Australia for a long time. And when she was talking about the same kind of thing that her mother was very different to the traditional Chinese mother. Because the Chinese mother has to do everything. Like they basically forget about who they are let go of themselves and they just do everything for everybody. And her mother wasn't like that her mother was was also an artist. So she basically she got her daughter to walk to school. That wasn't the damn thing you used to have to drive your children to school but she's like no, you can do it you're capable you can walk to school and she learned all this from her mom. So now she's like it with her children as well. And she you know, she's got this empowering sort of, you know, coming through the generations which is yeah, the same as you like this. You know, I keep going like this with my hands and how that's come down. You know? It's wonderful, so good. Yes, I mean, I don't have problem with it. If if if this is a family and this is a tradition, and as a woman, you can you can have this comfortable situation that your husband or your families read and you have enough money and you can stay at home. And you can take from everybody and you are happy with this. Then you should do it. Then you should do it. Because since I am a mom too, and I have to do all the things the same things. I know what a huge job this is, from day by day to organize and and to keep running everything that your family can have the normal day and I think it it would be really important that all these woman get paid pro moms for this job. Because you are you are a nurse you are a babysitter you are a cook, you are a cleaning person and you have four or five jobs in one and you don't get paid for this. And usually your work one scene, you know you make you clean the kitchen and after an hour is a bomb inside bang and nobody will say oh thank you mom, you clean the kitchen. So beautiful. Thank you so much you do Wait. It's normal that you do. And it's normal that it's everything in order. And I think it would be also important to show women, we recognize what you are doing all day. And we know if we don't have you, the family of your broken family won't work without a woman and without somebody who has to do who who does all the things. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, you have your children too. And they come and say, Mom, where is my pants? And I don't fight. And you go inside the room and this is everything coated, but you know where in this shelf? Here your beds darlin. And everybody's just studying my daughter's stunning my husband is stunning, huh? The tired your depends. Is there inside your cupboard? Yes, I show I searched it, but I didn't find you know, yeah, these are the small small things. But you have a lot of from the small things during the day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you have to save everything in your mind. And you have to keep in mind this and this and this and this and we have not asked to do and so and also for your partner lot of situations you met men thinking others and and then you have to try to create art too. So I think it's amazing, multitasking magic that we women can do. Yes, we can be proud, I think we can be proud if we get it if we get it. What have you got coming up in the future things that you're working on or the projects or ideas that you've got, where now I think that it's a good time to start with a little bit more gigs. Practicing and you know, after one or two months, we have spring. So newborn and wake up and start again with new fresh energy. I think this is a really good time to try it. And I met an excellent oboe player. And we started to play jazz together. I studied at the University of Mozart to my emphasis was jazz and popular music. And in that time, I played also in the jazz band from the University and we had okay and I really loved it to be free and improvise and and to practice jazz because you have to practice just to a lot of people thinking okay, just play something. This is jazz. No jazz is really complicated and you have to check it and we plan to have duo concert in March on maybe a prayer so this is this is fix and I love it to have a project I can see now and no okay. In that time I will play this. So I'm really excited and happy about this. I'm working on my second album. I have a lot of pieces each with a Vera specialist story. And we have to to make another post production of course audio engineering, mixing and mastering. This is a huge part. It is an important part and I will Like to compose more pieces because I think I have five or six, this is not enough. And I would like to really start with meditative music with my Native American flute. And also maybe write some of the meditative lyrics, I can speak to, to the, our, the, to the, to the audience, in a small circle, not of course, 100 people or 50 people. And I like to make also the music for this of course, so I would like to compose something also in that style. And, and improvise. So this is my plan that I, I, I would like to to make more free things free improvising and, and more connecting with people again, I was so long just inside the room and flat and no connections and no concerts. Also, if you are playing classical concert, it's often really official, you know, you are on the stage and you have this big hole. And after that the hours in sitting really brave and beautiful dressed and nothing is allowed to sit and listen. And after that, please clap your hands. This was never my style. I was often stressed from that. And jazz is the best way this is more relaxed and be cool. And oh my gosh, you had a no it's not exactly the most beautiful nevermind this the moment and this happening at the moment. And people want to have you in your moment. Really? authentical Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I think that the that these these forms, these are the shapes from from make new music, meditative music, improvising, jazz. Give me more from this freedom, what I would like to have and what I would like to give to the people. Yes, these are my future plans. Fantastic. Sounds wonderful. Thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate it. It's lovely to meet you. And I was so happy that you make this project. I never ever heard before this and I thought, wow, this is so important. I think a lot of lot of women are outside. They have these problems. They have these issues. And I also say see that in my nearness. Nobody asked me about this. Yeah, nobody asked me about this. Yes. Okay. You are at home now. And yeah, okay. Nobody asked me. Hey, come on. When do you have your next concert? Or what are you doing? Some of the person say, wow, it's great. You got an eyeball during this. This is this is a huge thing that it's cool. But but not so much of feedback from this and not so much interesting. Because a lot of people also are not inside from this. Yeah. Cannot they cannot imagine. Yeah, this is your normal life now. Yeah, yes. People ask us still. Oh, at the weekend we make a big parties somewhere in the countryside in a nice house from 6pm to the next morning. And we would like that you are there and I say this is totally nice. Thank you so much, but I have a small child. So she she goes to bed at 7pm. And I'm sorry. Is not they forget, they forget it, that we are now parents and have a small child. So I think you have to the same or really the same situations. Yeah, also the auditors. Yes, absolutely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Elise Addlem Australian philosopher + feminist S2 Ep75 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I am very pleased to welcome Elise Addlem to the podcast, a philosopher and feminist based in Europe, and a mum of 1. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy (MA) and Early Childhood Education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she is developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism and general philosophy for parents. She believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday, lived experience. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas and encouraging others to challenge norms and think critically, and putting ideas into practise in realistic and achievable ways ... and bring to the public the academic ideas without the condescension and jargon. Connect with Elise Instagram / YouTube / Website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for tuning in. It's a pleasure to have you back if you're a regular listener. And if this is your first time, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Today I'm pleased to welcome Elise Adlam to the podcast. Elise is a philosopher, and a feminist based in Europe, and she's a mom of one. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy, and early childhood education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level, and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she's developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism, and general philosophy, parents, she believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday lived experiences. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas, and encouraging others to challenge the norms and to think critically. And to put those ideas into practice in realistic and achievable ways. And to bring to the public the academic ideas. Without the condescension and jargon. I discovered Elise by Instagram. And I really resonate with her thoughts, and her opinions and also the ways that she shares these. And I really hope you enjoy hearing from her today. And I encourage you to check her out on Instagram, her YouTube and her website. The music used on today's podcast is from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, M Anderson, and her husband, John, thanks so much for tuning in. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks so much for coming on. At least it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you today. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on your Instagram. I'm sure you might be on other platforms. But I've come across you on Instagram. Yeah, what you're doing is awesome. And I just had to have you on the show. We're not going to spin it that you're an artist of any kind. Yeah, because you do creative to get your point across. But I just wanted to have you on because you're one of those people I really resonate with. I really love what you're sharing. And the way you share it too. It's very concise and straightforward. So without me blabbing on can you tell us what your sort of pedagogy and childcare? Your your? Yeah, like your one on one? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, my background is in childcare, I worked with kids for quite a long time. I studied it a little bit. And then I worked as a nanny for a long time. And that was at the same time as studying for a lot of years, I was studying philosophy. So I did my undergrad degree, that took me a long time, then I did my honours that we have in Australia. And then I did my masters overseas. And so yes, I was really interested in academia. But as I went on, I really came to become more interested in what I like to call public philosophy. So basically bringing philosophical ideas to the public. And I thought it was really important to do that in a way that's digestible in a way that people can understand. Because often it seems like philosophy is something that's really removed from society and people will purposely or not be talking about things in a way that's really hard for people to understand. I think that it doesn't need to be that way. And I really wanted to try and communicate things to people in a way that makes sense. Because why do we have all these big ideas, these ideas about society if we can't communicate them, as well as that? When I worked with kids, and then when I became a mother, I really got focused on this idea of how we can communicate these ideas to children and to parents because I think the children have these amazing minds where they're so so open minded. They don't have these constructs in their minds yet, like we come to Have which societally given to us, and which we are given through certain binary ideas through the schooling system, and just through the progression of, I guess how our, how our minds grow. So, yeah, that came to be really interesting to me. As well as that, obviously, the as well as that political philosophy and ethics is really important to me. And, obviously, so many problems with the capitalist system with patriarchy, and things like that affects parents, particularly mothers. And so all of that I kind of try and bring together in this way that I can, yeah, I can share with people on social media. What sort of got you first got, and it's interesting. I didn't realize you're in childcare before. That's my I was in childcare for nine years. Now, I'm in the kindy system. So I'm sort of switched into. Yeah, it's very interesting. But what got you interested in philosophy? Do you remember sort of what was the Yeah, I do. I do. So yeah, the childcare thing. I mean, to be honest, that was a way for me, because I always love kids. That was a way for me to work while studying because I mean, to be honest, I just didn't want to do retail or something like that. For years. I loved working with kids. And I thought, why not do that at the same time. And it's such meaningful work. It's really difficult work. But it's so meaningful, and impactful with the philosophy, so I grew up in a working class background, and I didn't even know philosophy existed until I went to uni. I was the first one to go to uni, my family. I'm the oldest of my siblings, my sister also ended up going. But yeah, I discovered it before that I was really interested in literature and writing. And they're really linked, I think, because it's both to do with ideas. So yeah, I took that first philosophy class in first year, and I kind of had my mind blown. I thought, well, you can talk about all these ideas and think about things. And then it took me a few years to sort of realize, yeah, this is something I'm really interested in and want to do. But it is quite a, it's quite a tough area to be in, in the, in the sense that I mean, you probably know, within neoliberalization of education, all levels of education, higher education, really, the number of positions in the humanities departments is very, very low. And like, the grind for academics is really, really hard. And so yeah, so actually, I'm completely obsessed with it. But I'm still wondering, Am I going to go on and do my PhD? I think I have this pardon me, you know, this academic part of me that really wants that, because that's like, you know, like to have that recognition from academia that I was trying so hard in. On the other hand, after I had my daughter, I really, you know, I thought, I don't want that life. I don't want the life where I'm just grinding away, barely seeing my daughter. And if we have more kids having to move everywhere, just for these jobs where you barely get paid anything. You don't have job security. So yeah. I think that I kind of had to work through my ideas of what it means to do philosophy. And and yeah, and I think this idea of public philosophy is kind of a white assault that I like that it's like, yeah, you're not completely consumed by that. Academia world where at night, it's almost like the outside world doesn't exist. You go to high school, you go to in you go to uni, and you stay in this system forever. You've come. Like, honestly, I had a few years out of it anyway. Because I, I went, I went straight from school to uni. And then I kind of had, I realized that because I initially thought I wanted to the journalism then I kind of dropped out ahead a few years and then I went back. And I kind of did it a slow way. Just because I had to work and things like this as well, you know, like, and then yeah, I, but what I've observed and experience with people, there's this there's a really insular quality to academia. I don't know about other departments, but particularly in philosophy, maybe because it's to do with ideas. It can become really abstract. And sometimes the things you hear are just not related to people's real lives, you know, like, there will be people should do this, or people should behave this way. It's just not recognizing the real nature of life, the real struggles people go through, you know, like, because there is a elitist quality to university, and there are still a lot of privileged people there. Mostly, of course, white men, especially philosophy has mostly white men. And I mean, I'm a white woman, you know, I'm not, I'm not a black or brown woman, I'm, I live in a smaller body. So I also don't experience I'm able bodied. So you know, even having said all of that, I feel like I experienced a lot of I don't know whether I would call, I wouldn't call it discrimination, but just little microaggressions and things like that, you know, you feel it, you feel that you're not the main type of person. So, yeah, so that's another one of the reasons why I think I maybe don't suit that, huh. Yeah. And like you said before, there can be this sort of particular way of speaking, like you said, whether it's deliberate or not, it's almost like a condescending way that like, you don't know this. So I'm going to say, I really, really dislike this. And I admit that I drank the Kool Aid as an undergrad. Because I think because when you're learning and you're thinking, wow, this is so exciting, I need to be, I need to be that person that I admire you who can talk in this way. So using all these neologisms, all the all these new words that have been made up? And, yes, sometimes, for sure, that can be helpful for the theory. But if you've made up a term, you can also then explain what that term means. And yeah, I just think, I guess that some, some people are, you know, really made for theorizing, and some people are made for teaching. And I feel like maybe teaching is my, my thing. You've got a very sort of down to earth approach with that, like, you can see that it's an important thing. And we've all got to, you know, challenge these, the norms, and this critical thinking is really important. But then you actually have to be able to put into practicing in your life in a realistic way. You can't just be barking theories and ideas at people. To be honest, yeah, I mean, some people do do that. And it frustrates me a lot. This is one gripe I have, of course, it's not everyone. There are some fantastic people there. And, you know, some just amazing people that are so down to earth, and that really are fantastic teachers and are able to communicate things in a really clear way. But there are also a lot of people that just aren't interested in doing that, to be honest. They're not interested in the real world in there. Yeah, exactly. Well, to be honest, the all the ones you know that the other ones they've never been in the real world things you hear from people, you know, these older men who their father was in academia, then they were in academia, and they literally maybe have never caught public transport. Or they've never, you know, they've never done a job, they've never had to, you know, serve someone at a takeaway plate, or MCAS or something, or they've never had to, you know, get yelled at by a boss in retail, or you know, just those everyday things that are part of life for most people. And so then to then theorize what a good life is, or what we need to fix in the world. Wanted to ask you about you mentioned Neo liberalism, and that's something that you do know about a lot on your Instagram. Can you explain to people who might not be familiar with what it's about? Of course, yeah. So I think it's important first to talk about what liberalism liberalism is, and then neoliberalism came after. So liberalism, generally came from the enlightenment. So this was a movement in France, in Germany in the UK, in the 17th century, that focused on the liberation of people from a kind of, I guess, cloud of closed thinking now. The idea was that we should be free to To govern our own lives. So, thinkers like Immanuel Kant, John Jacques Rousseau, who some people might have heard of, they had these ideas that people should be able to govern their own lives, they should be able to choose what they do insofar as it doesn't hurt, but as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And importantly, they should be free to think, in a free way, not restrained by outside ideas. Importantly, at this time, their context was a religious society. So it's important to mention that we're still religious men. And this is the interesting thing, perhaps because of the times, but they, they believe that these rules shouldn't govern all of society. So that was super important to be. So to have your thoughts led by reasoning, by thinking does this make sense? Instead of buy doctrine from the church. So this was an enormous moment, because really, at the time, you know, people still couldn't read. So a lot of people still couldn't read, only the elite could read. So that means that if you were told something by a religious leader, that is the truth, you didn't come to truth, by some sort of scientific process or some process of reasoning, it was just what you were told. So this was a huge, huge moment. Then we also have lived in come to have liberalism as a political system. So this is a system in which in which people should be free to do what, sorry, people should be free to do what they want. Or sorry, I'll say it again, people should be free to do what they want, insofar as it doesn't hurt other people. And people should have their rights protected to be free. Now, neoliberalism then, is a political system that began in the 1980s. So in America, you had Ronald Reagan in the UK had Margaret Thatcher, who people probably might have heard of these people's names, because they're pretty important. Australia, I don't remember who we had. So basically, they were really pushing for everything to be privatized. The idea of near liberalisation is that anything that is owned by the government, any sort of welfare state, so a welfare state is like, where the where the government will give people a pension, where they'll give people disability payment, they'll give people payment, if they are without a job, they will give and all these other things like they will fund the schooling system fund, hospitals, even some things we don't even think about, like the Postal Service, ambulances, everything that is public. The neoliberal process, made all of these things private. So that means that companies, some, some rich person bought it. And then that is now owned by a private person. That means that there's no longer this sort of idea that it's a public good, or it's something that everyone should be able to use just because they live in this society. Rather, it will be something that you have to pay for, and that will be based on whatever the company decides. So this process was a really ideological one. And it meant that so many things were privatized, to varying extents. So we've seen the we see in the UK, and particularly in America that so so many things have been privatized, that society comes to disintegrate. So in Australia as well, we had it. But America is really kind of the hallmark of this because in America, even things like the Postal Service has started to be privatized, we see that the schooling system has just been absolutely gutted. And you know, teachers even have to pay for their own resources and things like this sometimes. The other important thing that I do talk about a lot. I hope I'm not explaining in too much detail. No, this is great. Okay, so the other thing that's really central to this that I love talking about is the idea of the neoliberal individual. So going back to the enlightenment, the idea of individualism is really invented, at least in Western thought. So like I said before, enlightenment thinking and liberalism was based on this idea that we should be able to be free as individuals. So then we start to have this idea of an individual, I think that now we probably don't even think about it because, you know, we just think we're all people. We're all separated. But this is actually a really cultural thing and a really I really within our historical context, some societies today don't have this idea, you know, they're more collective societies they don't think always i. So this was brought to light through this enlightenment process. And this kind of shows how these ideas do affect real life, because first of all these thinkers came up with them, then they come to be proliferated, or, or they reach the world, through governments and through leaders through schooling. And eventually, it becomes common sense thinking that we are just all these individuals who are separated from one another. And the most important thing is that I get to choose what I do, and I am in competition with you. In neoliberalism, this becomes even harsher. So like, like I said, before, under neoliberalism, there's really this idea that the government should not infringe upon our rights. Because if the government is doing anything to it, if the government is telling us anything to do, then that is immediately an infringement upon our rights. And it's interesting, because in philosophy, we have these two ideas. They're called positive and negative freedom. So positive freedom is my ability to act. So I am free to do, I'm free to do something. Negative freedom is something that was completely forgotten in neoliberalism. But it's something that's also really important, it's when you are given some restrictions that allow you to be more free. So for example, they protect you. So for example, you can really think about it, I think, a really easy way is when you think about a toddler, right? With a toddler we're always trying to do, we were always having to protect them from doing certain things, or we're always having to sort of given the conditions in which they can flourish. Because if that if they are just if they're just allowed to do anything ever actually, they can't develop and they can't become self governing people. Because they can't become people that can look after themselves as human beings that you need these restrictions on yourself. So other ways. Other things that would be examples of negative freedoms are like a schooling system, you have to, you have to learn this in this, these in these things, mathematics, reading, and things like that. So that you will actually be able to be more free in the world, because you have then have this logical understanding of how things work. You can read and write, and so you can manage yourself in the world. Neoliberalism kind of completely did away with this idea. And I think that that's a real detriment. So everything is rather just seen as a intervening on an individual who, who really needs to be deciding 100% for themselves all the time, what they should do. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's also Yeah, it's also a huge mistake, because of course, we are still living in a society and we, everyone has roads, right? There's still a push for good. There's still a social thing, we still always have stuff that is part of society that actually taxes and the government has given us. So I think it's kind of misunderstanding the world. But yeah, this is so important to me, because I just think that this really impacts every everything we do, really every part of our lives. It seems to me, sorry, that's not a way to start a sentence that sounds like I'm gonna say something really profound, but I'm not. I've never really learned about this in like a steady kind of way like I'm aware of. But I sort of find it so interesting that it seemed to start out as a good idea that you question things and you learn things, but then at some point, it's just gone to the extreme kind of like, when did it become a good idea not to support people in our society that need help, like, yeah, it just and that's, I think worth, like Thatcher has got such a poor reputation in a lot of cultures. Yeah, in a lot of circles, because she just, it was like, I don't know if I enjoyed watching her portrayal on the crown on that series. Yeah, it was fantastic. Ryan, I really liked it. If anyone wants to learn about Aaron in an accessible way, that's a really good introduction. It's not all true, obviously. But I also I also really enjoyed that because I think they did portray really well. How Yeah, kind of the her really special nature because she was a very special person, I think an interesting political figure, not one that I agree with a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting path for now. And it was interesting to see the conflict between, you know, two women I'm taking this in a different direction now. But in the term feminism, something that I'm really all over I love the other day, it seems like the other day because I happen so quickly. But when, when Liz truss became prime minister in the Yeah. And everyone was like, Oh, it's so it's a woman, we should all be so happy. And I felt like saying, but will we all happy with, you know, Thatcher? And she was yeah, you know, this this? I don't know. Absolutely universal. I mean, just because it's a woman. You know, it's really a simplification, I think. And yeah, I really agree with you. I'm exactly the same. I think just because it's a woman, it doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be fantastic. And I we still have, and this is the importance of I think when when feminists are being intersectional, which has, you know, this idea that we look at all these different ways that people are disempowered, different power structures. So yeah, she's a woman. But she's already within this power system. You know, so she and she already has these values. So, you know, she just because she's a woman, doesn't mean that she's immediately going to stand up for women stand up for black and brown women stand up for trans women, you know, urge poor women? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I thought, yeah, there was a lot of that. That was funny. That was a funny, funny few weeks in the UK, wasn't it? My gosh, I listen to BBC Radio, like at night. Overnight, I have an EN. And gee whiz, even they were just, you know, for country that everything's meant to be proper and seem to be right from the Yeah, I? Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I think my husband and I were talking about a lot. And we, I don't know, I kind of have an idea that it's like a bit of a falling empire. Like in the, in the past, you know, it was this world empire that really, obviously colonized everywhere, you know, an empire and in a terrible sense, usually empires a lack of that they do a lot of colonizing and all these terrible things. But yeah, it was an empire. And you know, they thought, the leader of progression and it's not that anymore, and it's interesting. Yeah, it's not in a very good situation. So nearly realism, bad putting it? We don't like it. We don't like it. Yeah. What, what's the opposite to that? Is there a term that Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that. Look, I never, I never like to just prescribe and say, Look, this is 100%, what we should do, we always say, to look at the individual conditions of a particular society. So every society is different. But in general, I argue that a social welfare system would be much better for a system of government where there are these basic protections for everyone. So all these things we talked about. So you know, childcare would be affordable, the minimum wage would be really high so that everyone can afford to live. Health care would be really accessible to everyone, there'll be a universal health care system. They wouldn't schooling wouldn't have public and private schooling, you would just have a schooling system that was accessible to everyone. There would be less of a gap between rich and poor. And at the level of decide ideology, or the idea of the individual, there would be less of a sense that we all need to be completely separate from one another, and more of a sense that we do live in a collective and that we are as human beings, in our very nature. We are collective beings and that we do flourish, we live better lives when we're more connected to one another. So there would also be these grassroots and bigger level structures that really facilitate us always connecting with people. I think that then people would also be flourishing, they'd be leading better lives, but they would also hopefully be less lonely and less isolated. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, this sort of it's such a weird Student thing, isn't it that we've all got to be in tune, we've lost this sense of, you know, it takes a village, you know, that still rings dry. So many countries, it literally does take a village because you've got everyone around you look at even in even my husband's culture, he's not Australian. I just see how people behave. And it's so different. You know, like in Australia, we kind of have this idea that we'll all help each other. And it's kind of true. But when I see it in these small collective cultures, it's just a totally different thing. Like you don't even I don't know you, you don't people don't even think about it. It's just part of life, you know, that you everyone's always helping one another. You never really feel alone. Sometimes it's the opposite, you know, you feel feel smothered by people. But I don't know, even things like, look, I think when it comes to being a mother, which is obviously something that both you and I are really interested in being a mother, you know, mothers are so isolated. In Australia, America, Canada, these so called Western countries, because we've been told we have to do it all alone, it doesn't make any sense. Even. You know, we have that these ideas that grandparents, you know, they shouldn't be around the family all the time. And I'm not I'm not saying that they have to have to be some slave to their grandchild or something. You know, everyone has their individual circumstances. But but you know, that other cultures do have a different idea of family where, where you're just always together and you're, you're coming popping in and out. It's not the scheduled thing where you know, you're like, Okay, well, Grandma will look after you on set at Saturday from two to four. And then I don't know, it's more just like, more of a floor. Yeah. So yeah, I think we've kind of gone wrong in that way. It's really, it's really sad thing. Yeah, I can, I mean, people are becoming more aware. And I think it's something we can change, you know, you know, if we, if we recognize a problem, I think we can start to change it. Absolutely. And that's what I love about this, like, you know, so many people on social media, and through podcasts, and all sorts of things that are saying how they feel about things, and questioning, you know, just because we've always done this a certain way. Why do we have to keep doing it this way, is really important. The really important thing is we haven't always done it this way. And this is something that is really, really what happens with ideology, you know, an idea becomes the main idea about something. And then the best the way it works, the best is that everyone thinks, well, we've always done this, you know, I've heard people say, like, with capitalism, a woman and older woman said to me, we've always done it this way. University has always been, you know, really expensive. And I said to her in your life, it was free. Like, in your own life, not not only so it's amazing in the cultural imagination, how we can forget. Yes, that is very true. That is a good point. Yeah. And it's almost like, whatever idea is at the forefront of the time, that that idea wants us to forget everything else. Sort of going down. Yeah. Yeah. No. with critical thinking, because you know, this idea of thinking about things and picking apart why something is the way it is, particularly Yeah, for kids because I think that you know, if they grow up always picking things apart. I hope that then there'll be a little bit less, like you said, brainwashed or a little bit less accepting of everything. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Talk about this idea of introducing children to these to the, to the notion of critical thinking and to social what is you had something really good on your Instagram? Social justice? Oh, social justice concepts? Yeah. I said, You should introduce them from the very beginning, rather than sort of when they're old enough to what we think old enough to understand them. Yeah, I guess my big thing for me is that we can really break this down into ways that kids can understand whether because, yeah, I worked with kids a lot. I have my own kid. And I think it's really fun to think about for me as a challenge. Think about how we can break them down into things Kids will understand. So you really got to bring them to their level. So, yeah, if we're going to talk about social justice concepts with little kids say toddlers, we got to think, what are we really talking about with social justice? You know, we're talking about inequalities in the world and the way that some people are prejudiced against other people. Some people don't get as good a life as other people. We're really talking about what's fair, aren't we, that's the basis and you know, actually, we talk all the time to kids about what's fair, anyway, because we're really, we're teaching them this, they don't sort of come out and have an idea we anyway, we have to teach them. So why not then bring it up already, you know, in ways, you know, when I've talked to people, um, for example, on my Instagram, I've collaborated a bit with this wonderful woman Kinesia, and she does work on anti racism. And she says that, you, you, you need to actually name the things you like pretending, not saying black, not saying that kid is black, that's not going to help anyone, if they are black. And there are differences, we need to point them out and point out how they're beautiful. And point out how they're great and interesting. So you know, from the very beginning, when we're reading books with kids, make sure that they're diverse books and say, Look, you know, that mommy has white skin, that Daddy has black skin, that mommy has red hair, that day has brown hair, it's sort of you know, everyone's different. And that's what's special about us. And that's what's beautiful. And then you can point out instances, you know, in the playground of like, people being, I don't know, maybe, you know, that kid was being mean to that other kid, because they're smaller than them. That's not nice. Because just because they're bigger than them, that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to push the person around. And they you're talking about power structures? Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, I think I'm not being naive when I say that all these things are connected, I think that you're, you're setting them up to think about these things. And I just think that children are so so capable of thinking, you know, the questions they come up with are just the most amazing questions. So we should just really kind of feed into that. Yeah. And, and you're right, like kids, they don't come out. Like, we were the same, you know, we were little the world has formed us into who we are by, you know, the concepts in the world about racism, and, you know, all those sorts of negative judgment of other people. Yeah. And if we can sort of be aware of that, and I don't know, not to that to our kids like, exactly, putting it. Yeah, like, Yeah, I think we can never be, you know, part of human nature is to group ourselves. That is something which, you know, I think there's always going to be, it's always going to be a process of learning and unlearning, and it's never going to be a thing where I'm like, now I don't, now I'm not prejudiced against anyone. I like to kind of pull myself I mean, take it that I'm always racist, you know, I have internally not on purpose, but I'm always gonna have inside me, or I'm always I always have misogynistic ideas. So I always have ideas about men and women that are based on their gender that I've learned, because these are internal, we're always going to kind of have them to a certain extent. And as much as we try for our kids, they will have different prejudices, or the same ones that continue. So it's also teaching them to constantly question those as well. And to say, it's not that not to feel guilty not to say that I'm a bad person, because of this, that doesn't help anyone. But just to say, look, I'm not perfect, no one is perfect, but we're trying to build a better world. And let's kind of all be vulnerable in saying that none of us you know, none of us have pure thoughts or something like this, you know, but we're all we're trying. Yeah, we were all doing our best. Exactly. We're all doing our best, be realistic and just try our best. Yeah, I think that children are capable of, you know, of taking on the complexity of the world. And you know, like, yeah, you're not gonna say, you're not gonna make it kids obsess about it, or something. You're not gonna be like, but also we, you know, and this is something that it's hard for all of us. It's hard for me, children are people and they're, you know, they have all different emotions, like everyone, they can't be happy all the time. And, you know, so it's not a bad thing that they feel sad. And I think when when we grew up often, there was this idea that you just shouldn't point these things out. You shouldn't talk about it. Yeah, at least where I grew up, and yeah, and yeah, but If you didn't see it, right, like, as a kid, you're kind of confused because you're like, why someone talking about this stuff? And then you think it's a bad thing to even address or talk about, I kind of feel like we're living in a different context now, because we live in a much more global society. And, you know, we have access, and our kids have access to people from all over the world via the internet, and, and I kind of knew that they might grow up having a more global sense. And having said that, yeah, I think the only way things really change in the end is kind of at a smaller level. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But I was gonna rely on it today, we decided it was a good idea not to use plastic straws. And on the, you know, it's just one straw said, you know, 13 million people, you know, so it's like, every single person and do something. And yeah, you know, it does start with little actions. And I don't think exactly, the value of those. Exactly. I'm always kind of the arguing that the minute that it needs to be we need to as individuals push for structural change, we need to stop, you know, governments and big companies from doing the things that they are because often with this, with our society being so focused on individuals, they, the dialogue on purpose is pushed towards these individual changes. So yeah, for us are important, but as long as they speak, all companies is still mining. And still, you know, as long as governments are still in Australia, you know, the government is heavily heavily embedded with a big mining companies. As long as this is the case, then, if we recycle, that's only going to do so much that's going to be both. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I want to read out one of the quotes that you have on your Instagram, completely relate to and I love it so much, I want to frame it and put on my wall, a mother's identity and sense of self is tied to the and then in brackets, lack of social recognition she receives for her labor. Now that basically in a nutshell, is how I felt. After I had my child, my identity went down the drain, because all I was expected to do was look after a child and I kept thinking, I'm so capable. I've worked full time I've done all this stuff. But now all society wants me to do is sit on the floor and play with this baby. And it just felt so weird. And I was challenged very much. So yes, yeah, that's, that's, um, yeah, I think so many of us go through this. And you know, on the one hand it is there are two sides to it. On the one hand, you have that. For some, for some women, this is so monotonous. And this is just, you know, women are told that they need to absolutely love being a mother every single moment. And this is a this is a patriarchal idea, because it's based on the idea that women are just naturally made to be nurturers. This is your God given role. And some women simply don't feel that and that's totally okay. And, you know, one person isn't meant to completely bring up a child. On the other hand, I think that capitalism really puts this emphasis on our job, and our identity is totally tied to our job. And I talked about that a little bit in the in the Instagram post. So identity is so tied to our job that when we go on maternity leave, have this complete identity crisis. You know, it's an existential crisis, that just means crisis related to our understanding of the meaning of life existentialism, yeah, meaning of life. So yeah, whole idea is what does my life actually mean? I'm not doing anything, and that's because doing is always within capitalism producing. Yeah, and also, I'm not earning a wage for this. And so therefore, this is meaningless. When actually what you are doing is you're contributing to society by bringing human beings into it. You know, you this is a huge part of it. I mean, this is one of the biggest ways that you are contributing to society, like babies fundamentally cannot look after themselves. So Yeah, so I think that we're kind of women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives. So as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this literally cannot win. I'm just looking for this quote, I had a guest last the last year or this year, I can't remember now. Charlotte Conde who's an an artist from the US, and she had a quote that I love, and I'm finding it because I've got to say it right? I can't, I can't not say it right, because it's awesome. Where is it? Hello, Charlotte, if you're listening, alright, here we go. This is it says, as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. It's exactly what's so well, what's because society somehow under capitalism has become the economic world. Yeah, it, it has become just that and not all these other aspects of society. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes the word care economy is used to talk about how this is that, you know, is also a sort of economy where we're producing but I think even we don't even need to use those terms. It's just the fact that nurturing one another is one of the main human acts in the way that we, you know, part of being human and living a good life. Not to mention that we, there's no way around it like either way. Either way, look after our children at home or other people look after children in a childcare center. It is still this care, right? Yeah. Yeah, people need that. So yeah, we is really the fact that they consider different things as a real problem. Hmm. And again, I think that's, yeah, this one off, like I sometimes bash men too much. But this whole it's not individual men. It's the snobbery. It's been going for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's not a new thing. But here's an interesting post. I can't remember who wrote it. Just last night, I was reading that. The whole idea of being a natural mother. Nurture is a concept that was created by men by the patriarchy. Exactly, I'm sure. Because that's yeah, I felt that when I was first giving my baby his very first bath, and did not know what to do. I thought, how, like, I remember saying to the nurse, I was verbally like, how do I push with the facewash? Like all these? You don't know, just your instincts. I'm like yeah, you got this tiny, tiny little, little alien looking thing. That's the funny thing. Yes. Somehow, when actually moms and dads Oh, parents, just learning the same as one another, you know, like, what? Yeah, when, when my daughter was born, my husband and I were both equally terrified of giving her a bath. Because you know this. So like, how do I hold them? What do I do? And it's like, yes, you're all learning together? Yeah. absolutely absurd. This idea. And you're right, it, of course, does come from patriarchy. Because there's this thing called Gender essentialism. I'm sure you kind of know the idea, or at least maybe not the term. So I was gonna say not probably not in those words, but I know, you would know it for sure. Yeah. So gender essentialism is basically just saying that certain qualities are inherently female, and certain qualities are inherently male. So the female ones would be nurturing, soft, emotional, kind of soft, and all these things and then the male ones would be hard reasoning. unemotional because of anger isn't an emotion in this context. And kind of separated from other people. And these ideas, yeah, are really fundamental to the way that we think about people of different genders and then yeah, becoming a mother. You're just so pushed into this. Because I guess in the workforce, you know, you can kind of there are a lot of still a lot of limits on women, but you can kind of go into a field that you're interested in that but with mothering, you're really, really pushed into that. I am a nurturer. I have to be a nurturer. And it's done. You know, like like with any things some people take more than that. And some people don't. And that's totally okay. And also, we're all learning mums and dads we all learn when none of us are just just born to be parents. Yeah, that's so true. And like, even with my two kids, like, I've adjusted the way I've parented them, because they're different people. So I'm learning as I go. Yeah, because not every child is the same everywhere, like every person is different. So it's an interesting concept, isn't it? I love all this creep. I love this stuff like this. Just why? Why do we think like this? When we started, get addicted to it, and sometimes people are, my friends are annoyed at me, because you know, you kind of have a normal conversation. You're like, Oh, I love that. Other things that you've sort of delved into, on your page? Obviously, politics, but diet culture? is a good one. Can you share some of your interesting thoughts about that about? Oh, yeah. And I noticed earlier, when you described yourself, you said, I've got a smaller body. Yeah, I live in a smaller body. Yeah, sorry, are you live in a smaller body? I'm not an expert on this whatsoever. The with this, just like, you know that I would never say that I am the person that everyone should be listening to about racism. I'm not the person that people should be fundamentally listening to about diet culture. But I do think that it's a really important thing to talk about. But look, it's women that are people that are living in larger bodies, that really the ones we should be listening to, because they're the ones that experience, the experience, prejudice, and fat shaming and all these things. So I'm trying, I'm really in the process of learning as well, I think. Because, you know, this idea that to be thin is good. And to be bigger is bad. This is something that's so deeply ingrained, you know, that like, somehow these are moral things. And also, somehow these are things that we can totally control. And, and if you're not, then you just need to try harder with them. So, yeah, so yeah, I like all of us, I grew up, just hearing from everyone around me, people are constantly criticizing themselves about their body, you know, and especially women, not only women, but especially women is such a collective thing we do you know. And then, of course, after you have a baby, it's the thing we do, and we just waste so much time focusing on our bodies, how much were the things we want to change and what we paid about our bodies and things like this. But the reason why I think it's important to talk about it as a diet culture, like as an ideology we have in societies because what we learn from fat people are people that are living in larger bodies. So I purposely use the word fat because, you know, when we grew up, we're taught you shouldn't use the word fat. It's like an insult to someone. And there are some activists like Aubrey Gooden who I don't know whether, you know, the podcast maintenance phase, it's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, yeah. You know, she, she kind of says this, this is a descriptive term. I believe that different people kind of have different ideas like about this. But what I've learned is that, yeah, it's just a descriptive term. And as well as that to say things like I'm living in a smaller body, I'm or someone who's living in a larger body with saying that this is just the body we live in. We're not. We kind of haven't chosen this. And we know, it's just based on genetics. It's based on, you know, our stress levels. It's based on what our social context is, you know, how much money we have the availability of food, how much time we have to prepare food or exercise, what sort of weather conditions, we have just so many things we cannot control, we fundamentally cannot control it. And so I think it's so important to talk about how there's so much prejudice against people who are not thin, just fundamentally and this is quite a new thing that is being talked about now. And there's so much pushback against it because we have so much obsession with thinness and, you know, the things that people talk about that they you know, the prejudice that they face, even just simple things like to get medical care you would know, from listening to maintenance phase, you know, the stuff that Aubrey Gordon talks about and how people you know, as kids, they will be put on diets. And everyone says that, well, that's okay. Because they just, you know, we just want them to be healthy. And the psychological effects of that are just terrible. So I think it's so important to talk about. So while Yeah, you know, while I, as a person, of course, have gone through a process of, you know, learning to have more neutrality toward my body, and things like this, and I am really trying to teach my kid to have a positive relationship with food. So for nothing, this is good food. This is bad food. Often Intuitive Eating is a term that's caught that's used around this. I think, really, though, the fundamental thing is that we need to think about these power structures and how fat people are just completely completely, you know, they really suffer from inequality in so many ways, because of this prejudice. And someone pointed out to me correctly that, you know, on social media on Instagram, so many people talking about intuitive eating and talking about diet culture, are people living in smaller bodies, and often white women, you know, so. So we, you know, I, we can only say so much about this, it's not really our authority, I think we need to really have a lot more diverse people talking about this, and, you know, to really listen to them. Yeah, I think that's really true. Similarly, with, like, we're talking about before about how I sort of speak to my children about things, we found weight, like I I'm a fat person, I'm not ashamed to say that because there it's like saying, I'm, I'm tall, and I'm fat. You know, they're descriptive. Exactly. This. Yeah, this is the thing. I think, also, it's like about everyone's own relationship with themselves, like, whatever, I guess whatever you choose to identify with. Yeah, is important. Yeah. But like, I explained to my kids that, you know, I showed my, my youngest son's never seen me, in a thin body, I was, I have a different time in my life. My weights fluctuated. But I showed him a picture the other day of when I was my lightest, and he couldn't believe it was me. And I said, I'm exactly the same person that I am, as I was, then like, I'm actually a happier and more settled person now. It doesn't change, like, you know, whether I'm good at something or bad at something, maybe, you know, Netflix is different. But you know, I'm still, but it's not like a moral a moral thing. It doesn't say that. Because, like, Okay, I live in a smaller body, but I'm not good, athletic, you know? And I'm not my diet isn't the best, you know, that's the other thing that like, no one ever is sort of looking at me eating pancakes or something and being like, oh, you know, gee, you should pick a healthier option or something. I mean, of course, like, maybe my grandma did, because, you know, like, that's that generation. And that was like, you know, just so ingrained for them that they're always kind of policing and worrying, maybe you will get bigger, maybe we'll you know, like as it but you know, no one, you know, for fat people that it's a public thing that can go in, you can go in public without being harassed in this way. And this constant microaggressions. And yeah, so I just don't think it makes sense. Because, yeah, people don't know what anyone's diet is. And also, it's irrelevant. totally irrelevant to other people what someone eats. I mean, I just think tying the moral thing as if it makes you a good or bad person is absolutely absurd. Like, how is it got to do with anyone else? Or whether you're a good person? Because like I said, it also depends on so many factors like, like, ultra if you're, you know, if you're tired parent, if you don't have much money, or so many things, and even if you even if you do have the ability to eat healthier and choose Not, not the word health isn't very good to eat more whole foods or something. If you don't, it's your own choice. You know, like, just like people choose to do different jobs, people choose to have leisure time doing different things. And it's funny, though, like, we talked before about this, neoliberalism is all about the self, but we're so obsessed with everybody else. It's like, yeah, there's you so big, like, has it always been? Yeah. People always. I think, I think it has, yeah, I don't like this something about, you know, like, I don't agree with the idea that, you know, society is worse than ever, in that sense. Because, you know, also even when we talk about neoliberalism, look, there were periods where we had greater social welfare and things like that, but fundamentally looking back In history, it was much worse, you know, because we were like, kings and staffs. We were there was just slaves and slave owners, you know. So that was funneling until there are still slaves in the world. You know, there are a lot. So, yeah, we have to put it in context like that. And when it comes to beat judging each other. Yeah, I think that now we just, it's more public because we have these avenues. But look, when we, I mean, I don't really know what happened before writing was a thing. But you know, you look at these old publications from few 100 years ago, newspapers, that it's all gossip there, it just does seem to be this human thing. to gossip about each other, and to compare and to judge. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, we, we kind of do do that. Yeah. And, but the difference is with this constant, it's more constant now. Because we just can't, I mean, think about the amount of different opinions and messages we're reading a day, or we're listening to a day, it's just so much. So I think that's why it can feel so overwhelming. Now, I'm gonna lead this into something that I talked to all my guests about, is this concept of, of guilt, or particularly mom guilt. Yeah. And the more that we talk about it, the more I believe that the whole culprit of it is this, what society expects us to be as mothers, so that we think we've got to do so we put these on ourselves, and when we don't meet them, then we feel bad about it. So it's an external construct. It's a thing that's coming at us. And I feel like, because of social media, it's just heightened the whole thing, because we can see so much more, you know, before we heard that, such and such down the road was doing such and we go, oh, shouldn't do that. Blah, blah, blah. There's she might not have known that. But now, it's, you know, people can tell each other what they think of them all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're right. It's, it's just constant. And also, it's, it's really difficult, because I think as well, we seek out connection on social media. And I think, and I think that, you know, for isolated mothers, we do kind of want to see others that are in the position like us that are also mothers at home with their kids, especially when they're little you know, when you're on maternity leave, or when you're in that really difficult phase, then you really want to think like, and you and like you said before, you're thinking what is my life, all I'm doing is Baby Alive. So on the way Yeah, and that is kind of maybe part of the reason why we do also we're so vulnerable. And then, and then we look to these images of other people and social media. And I think that there is just there are parts that are really positive, and I kind of try and stay stick to them. There are parts that are really saying that, you know, we just need to be good enough parents, and you know, we're all doing our best. And then there are parts that you know, they'll have this really nicely curated feed where it just shows them doing this lovely activity with the kids and they're all wearing matching outfits, their hair is washed, and they're like, there's no mess. There's no crumbs on the ground. There's no like, and you know that it's not real. It's not real. It's not real. But on the other hand, like when you're in this vulnerable mental position, you kind of can think how can how can I live that way? And how come I don't? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, for me personally, I don't know. I think in those early days of being a mom, like in the newborn phase, I never I never thought that you know that that was real. I never thought I want it to be like that. But at the same time I I definitely did. And I still do experience mom guilt just thinking because we have these were socially conditioned, like you said, to have certain ideas about what a mom should do. We have. I think that this is ideal of a mother that it's not even it's not a person. It's like this thought, you know, that we all have in our cultural thinking. And we compare everything according to that. And it's this idea that's been perpetuated by patriarchy so not by men, but by this idea that women are a certain way and that women are meant to do this. And women play a big part in perpetuating it as well. You know, women also perpetuate patriarchy we all we all do. But because this is they are ingrained thinking. And yeah, so I, I would think, you know, I think I would compare a bit more with like other mothers I saw around, you know, like, why does she look so well dressed and I'm wearing trackies and haven't washed my hair and have stressed pimples or whatever, you know, like, or why do I feel? Yeah, or I don't know, when my daughter started becoming an older baby. You know, my daughter is on super energetic side is she's amazing. She, I mean, she's just full of life and ready to go all the time. And it's completely amazing. Like, people always comment on it, but it's tiring. Yeah. Like, I mean, even. And so once she started, I don't know, I was so obsessed in love with her and still am. But as a baby, I sort of said to my husband, like, do you think? What would you think if I took longer maternity leave? So I am in a really lucky position that we've sort of could choose how long I would stay home with it. I don't get paid for any of that. And we're not like, in a insanely good financial position. Like we sort of said, Then during this time, we won't save. But of course, having said that, compared to most women in the world, that's a hugely privileged position. Like for me, for us to even say that. So yeah, and he was like, Yeah, of course. But you can, however long you want, you know, maybe till two or whatever. And then she got close to one. And I was like, starting to think, Oh, my God, I cannot handle these days of constant energy, like, because it would just be like, if we were at home, she'd be running around, and she would be kind of annoyed. And it makes sense, because she's, like, pent up, she needs to get this energy out. There's not enough to do in it. We live in an apartment. That's not enough. You know, in Australia, houses are super common. And a lot of the world people live in apartments, and it's fine. But um, yeah, and we would, I would take it apart twice a day, and it wasn't enough. And I felt really guilty because I was, like, I love my daughter. I should be loving this, when actually it doesn't make sense. But just because I love her doesn't mean I need to love every second of it. Yeah, yeah, we ended up sending out a daycare. And we're all she asked if she is thriving, you know, I, and I'm a much better parent for that. Sometimes I do still feel guilty. You know, my husband has to remind me. And it's interesting that he reminds me, he's, he's a very good feminist. You know, he, he understands why he wouldn't say that, because I think he always he doesn't like to say, you know, like, as a man, he doesn't want to say that. But I think he is aware of all these things and sort of tries to think critically about it. But anyway, he says to me why you feel guilty? You know, she loves it. She wants to be there. But then I don't know just decide. I guess it is just this cultural ideas of like, oh, but she should be with me, even though it doesn't make sense. If she was like, the other day she was home sick with me. And we're both are not in. Too much. You know, she wants to be there playing with other friends and doing the million activities they do at daycare. Yeah, I can't provide her with like, 10 activities a day. Yeah. Yeah, look, what you're saying is so, so true, and so relatable. It's that notion that, like you said, we love our children, but we don't have to love every second of this mothering roles that were you know, an expectation. We love every moment. We don't love every moment of anything, but yet, but then he was coming back. We're hauled over the coals if we say, if we publicly you know, say, Oh, gee, this was really hard today. Well, you want to become a parent. Yeah. Many people whinge about their job. Like they love their job. But jeez, I had a hard day. Oh, well, you shouldn't winter is reserved for us. Of a year, this is our natural role. That's what we're supposed to be doing it. Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. And I think that, yeah, like, like, we really need this outlet to just say this is hard, sometimes just like everything, and also fundamentally that, like, society doesn't really support mothers. And so because we don't have that village, because we don't have the it makes it that much harder. That's for sure. I don't know how many of us do it, to be honest, when you think about everything we've got going against us. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I'm, you know, in such a privileged position, and I'm really tired all the time. And like, you know, people do that so much harder, you know, and I had to know, it's, I'm just in awe, really, but they shouldn't have to, they shouldn't have to, you know, yeah, that's so true. It's frustrating, isn't it? Now I want to ask you, there's a great reel that you made a few weeks ago. It's great. I'm really that bad. This is a big thing for me, because I actually want to, I want to talk about this again, because this is like this obsession, absolute obsession with AD generation. I feel like all parents at the moment, and yeah, look, if you look at it, if you look at it in a historical context, like I say, I'll just kind of repeat what I said in the real because I mean, it's true that every generation has this crisis about some new technology that's going to destroy young people in the time of the ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, so this is like, about 2000 years ago, they thought that writing was going to destroy everyone, because the oral tradition was how we, how they communicated. And you know, through memorizing, that was a huge thing. Because of course, if you didn't memorize, then how were you going to ever remember anything? And how would ideas ever be passed on so that I will now we write it down, now the kids aren't going to remember anything, how, you know, this is going to be a catastrophe. And then, of course, then the printing press, we have books proliferated, that was a crisis. And then of course, the ones we know, which are like, radio, radio was a disaster. Now, of course, it's funny, because people think the radio is like a good alternative to screen time. Not watching. People just gonna be listening all the time. And then they're sitting there listening, and they're not moving around. And then TV, of course, which still goes on, and then the internet, you know, so I just think that yes, there are these recommendations that we have. But when we obsess over them, we're just really not thinking in context. Because we're, we're not thinking about the fact that, like, the alternative, we think that the alternative to screentime is like this, this 100% quality time with a parent or with some other caregiver, where they're just flourishing, and they're, you know, they're just absolutely taking everything in and learning. And, you know, for like, in the past, the alternative was probably working for a lot of children in the world. Now. The alternative is working, bored, either working in paid labor or working at home helping with the helping maintain the home. Or if it's not that, you know, it won't necessarily be this quality one on one time, all the time. And even if we talk about, even if we don't talk about that, we just talked about our own context. Then it, I just don't think it's the worst thing in the whole world. They don't. Kids don't need 100% quality time, all the time. It's impossible. And you're also going to have parents who are kind of regulated and feeling okay, and, and I really think it's part of this mom guilt, it feeds into this mom guilt thing again, because realistically, how are you going to cook dinner? With, you know, a few kids around you, especially if they're young? Or how are you gonna, you know, get all chores done? Or how are you audits? Maybe you just need to relax. It doesn't even need me that, you know, maybe you just need a minute. Yeah. You know, without them doing this. And I think that often the people that do do no screen time ever, at least the ones that I've heard are in a really privileged position, you know. And so then for people who have juggling so many things just feel so bad that their kids watching TV. I just think it just, I don't know, it's just guilt for nothing. And also, I just think that when we look back historically, like, maybe we won't be like, Oh, my God, look, they were staring at screens all the time. Maybe because that's just part of our world. Yeah, like springs are part of our world. Yeah. And the truth is, I think if you don't give your child a little bit of access to that technology, they're gonna get left behind at school. That's the other thing. Yeah. Because Because actually, they need to learn these skills. And that's kind of the approach we're taking that we're going to try and as soon as we can I don't know what age they started at, like four or five or I haven't looked into it yet, but it tries to do like kids coding for. Yeah, yeah. because, I mean, that's kind of gonna be really important. And yeah, that's the future. That's the world now, and I don't know anything about coding. And so I'm kind of like, in the dark already, you know. And so I just don't think that, yeah, that track, we're trying to protect our kids from things. I think rather, we just need to think how we can nurture them to safely and, and in a nice way, use those things. This is a really long bow to draw. But it's like, in the times when you'd say to teenagers don't have sex, it's like, well, they're gonna have sex, so teach them how to use a condom. Right? So Right, exactly, you just say just don't use it. And then they're gonna go on the internet themselves. Or watch shows? Well, anyway, they watch shows on the internet, go on social media, whatever themselves, and they're gonna have no understanding if you don't teach them, like how to tell if something is factually based How to tell if something is safe, you know, or something that is comfortable for them, you know? Or how to ask you if it's something uncomfortable on the internet happens to them to tell you and yeah, exactly like this creepy purple, they're selling to me or something. Instead, they'll just hide it. And then they're getting more on. Yeah, yeah. So I'd say waiting until they're teenagers to talk about their safety on the internet, and to let them have access. I think it doesn't make sense. That's not to say that I'm gonna let my kid sit there and do anything on the internet. Yeah, of course not. But but you got to, you've got to give them I think, begin was small levels of freedom and make it bigger and bigger in ways that they can cope with. Yeah, and it's no different to like, if you sent your kid out a little, a little toddler out into a big kid's playground, or, you know, just gonna go get run over and go sit and drink your coffee and not watch you know, it's, it's a part of life and trying to do it in a safe way. So your child's protected and, and if that's important, that communication to like, to bid for them to come to you and say, Hey, this happened, what do I do? Or how do I navigate this? Or, you know, it's so important that they keep talking to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you, of course, would have so much more experience with this. For me, this is all theoretical, and just thinking about it. Because I know it's so hard for parents to work, navigate this whole online thing. But like you said, we just got to, we got to acknowledge this is the world this is the world they live in. They don't, you know, they don't remember a world before the internet. You know, we, you and I remember when it shows our age, but we remember, you know, I had the time before the internet. And so I really think of it as something that happened. They don't think like that. They're just like, yeah, that's the world like when I my toddler she has she's on a tablet. And I don't think that it's some huge disaster that she knows how to, like change the video or something. You know, she can press it as like, yeah, like, because that's just like she's learning all these other skills in the world. Yeah, just letting her do that. Yeah, of course. It's so much easier for her. Yeah. And yeah, it's a story I often reflect on my seven year old we were talking once about how we used to have our phones on the wall so you remember to pick up the phone it only went a certain distance like the cord was stuck to the curly cord Yeah, and he said how did you play your games while it was stuck on the wall? I'm like what? Because had it because he's imagining I've got my phone stuck on the game's amazing I love it. It's not normal world that didn't have this stuff in it and it got it blows my mind like how different because especially because we live in a time when technology progressed so rapidly and now it's kind of seems like it's a little bit plateauing again, like we haven't you know they're trying to do like VR and things like that now but but you know, within the last kind of 20 years it's just been massive with the smartphones and with how fast the internet is and things like this. But yeah, it's so funny. This is really good channel on YouTube, which is something like teenagers try out old technology or something. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're a funny how like they're trying to use a video player and they're trying to work out like how you would put it in. And the funniest thing is when you know that cord comes out, you know the tape or whatever. The real inside it comes out and every one of our generation discuss art because then you have to fix it with a pen. I love that. There's a post it's like what's the relationship and they show? Only certain faithful over certain days you'll know what you find mental part of our life and now like, yeah, they just have no idea what it is. And yeah, it's okay to because, you know, things change and we don't need to, like be romantic about it, but I think you know, because but yeah, it is funny. It is quite incredible, but I think that they're gonna be, you know, do amazing things with this technology is such capability. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And again, I think if your kids not aware of it or understands or knows what even what it is like that is the future they will they will get left behind that's not present. It's literally sorry. Yes, it is. It's the present. It's happening right now. And if you can't engage in that way, you are just not going to be involved in the conversation, which is Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Bla bla what what platforms are you on? I know you're on Instagram. Are you on? Yeah. Yes, I'm on Instagram. I've just started a YouTube as well, because I wanted to do longer videos. Because obviously, all of these concepts. I think it's really fun. And I really like it that I can communicate things to people in a really short way on Instagram, but I'm, yeah, I'm on YouTube. So I'm, I'm, yeah, so you can find me there. And I'm on Twitter as well, if you use Twitter, and I'm just, I'm just developing my website, I hope that it will be out soon. And my kind of hope with this whole project is and this is why I started this whole thing is I wanted to move toward or incorporate doing courses for parents and really for people in general, but focusing on parents like feminism for parents and different critical thinking for parents things like that, and provide different resources. So yeah, I'm really working a lot on that at the moment. Yeah, excellent. I love that. I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people if they want to find you. I've just found that I mean, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. It's good fun. My. Yeah, it's good, fun. Look, thank you so much for sharing your ideas with the world and for communicating in a very non condescending manner. It's really lovely. Honestly, I think if there's one thing like, we're all learning, and I just, I don't know, we're all learning and yeah, and the more we can all talk about things, the better, I think but it's been so nice. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, no worries at all. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for mums of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Mezz Coleman Australian indie musician S2 Ep48 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter + vocal coach Mezz Coleman, mum of 2 children, aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her. Her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business, her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age, it was quite organic that Mezz would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. Straight out of high school Mezz went to Uni to study a jazz improv course. Her son was born in her final year of Uni, so Mezz has never experienced her music career without having children. Mezz has released 3 studio albums, Parts of You, Parts of Me in 2010 , Words in 2015 and a Christmas Album in 2015 . Mezz is currently recording her third studio album, a chamber indie-pop record, produced by Rohan Sforcina (Oh Mercy, Kate Miller Heidke, Ali Barter, Ferla) Adored by folk festival audiences around the country and celebrated as “a musical treasure” ( Bendigo Blues & Roots Festival ), Mezz has a unique ability to conjure worlds, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight-to-the-heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on Carols by Candlelight , and open for the likes of Kimbra, multi-award-winning songwriter Sara Storer and iconic Australian artist Shane Howard (Goanna). When she’s not performing her own material, Mezz’s experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist, has given her the opportunity to work with many international and national artists including Nana Mouskouri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne Gospel Choir. In 2021 Mezz toured as backing vocalist and keyboard player for The Marrollo Project’s “Uninvited: The Songs of Alanis Morissette” . Mezz website / music / linktree Podcast - instagram / website Music heard on todays podcast is from Mezz, used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bandik people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. It is really great to have you here. My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter and vocal coach, Mezz Coleman, who's also amother of two children aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her, her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age. It was quite organic that Ms would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. straight out of high school Mezz. went to uni to study a jazz improv and her son was born in her final year of uni. So Ms has never experienced her music career without having children. Ms has released three studio albums, parts of you parts of me in 2010 words in 2015 and a Christmas album also in 2015. Mercy is currently recording a chamber indie pop record, adored by Folk Festival audiences around the country and celebrate it as a musical treasure. By the Bendigo blues and Roots Festival. Mays has a unique ability to conjure words, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight to the heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on carols by candlelight. And I prefer the likes of Kimbra multi award winning songwriter Sarah Stora and iconic Australian artists Shane house of Goanna fame when she's not performing her own material mess his experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist has given her the opportunity to work with many international and Australian artists such as Nana Maskuri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne gospel choir in 2021. Mears tour is backing vocalist and keyboard player for uninviting the songs of Alannis Morissette. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And thanks for your continued support. Welcome to the podcast today, mares. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to meet you. Yeah, it's nice to be able to chat to you because I've been following you for a while after I sort of connected with Georgia through the Motherlode, Georgia fields, and then I saw that you were a guest on there. So I was like, oh, because I'm a musician. So I like to follow people that I can connect with in that way. So yeah. love watching you. You're playing the piano and singing the songs. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's amazing. What Georgia has set up with the mother lode. And it's like, extra special for me, because, um, I've actually known her for a really long time. We're at the same high school together. Yeah. And it's not like we've, you know, hung out throughout all the years, but we've actually known each other for ages and to just see what she's building there. That community for mother musicians. Yeah, amazing. It is. It's so it's so valuable. And it's one of those things that like, there is no rulebook of what to do. It's like you learn from each other and trip over on the way but then you sort of go, oh, I can learn from that. Or I can Yeah, take that on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're a musician, singer and a songwriter. When did you first become interested in music? I think in many ways, I was quite lucky. I have a very musical family. So my parents It's so funny, this is a story that I've only really recently realized is quite amazing, because when it's just your normal life, you don't really think about it. But when my mum was a stay at home mum for a long time, but you know, loved singing, and my dad worked, I think, a fairly uninspiring office job somewhere. And then when we were sort of when me my brothers were sort of like, early teen years. My father's whole office got retrenched. And so he was looking for other work. And I think it was, you know, a little bit disheartening. And then just on this sort of, like, it's sort of, I think it hit him and my mum at the same time, like, we love playing music together, we should do something with this. Oh, and they ended up like, for 1015 years, like, I think they really stopped doing it maybe five or six years ago. So maybe even longer. They actually built a business playing music together. So my dad would play guitar, my mom would sing. And I guess you would say they were like music therapists, they would go into a lot of aged care places, senior citizen places, maybe I'm not sure, maybe hospitals as well, I might be wrong about that. And they would sing for people, and they would and people would join in, and they would like do the songs that would you know, maybe trigger a lot of memories for older people. And so I grew up just thinking it was totally normal to make a living, playing music. That is awesome. Yeah. And when I say totally normal, like, it was tight, sometimes, you know, like, they'd have good weeks, and then then have not such good weeks in terms of, you know, financial, so, but yeah, like I just sort of learnt from an early age that you can play music and make a living from it, and also makes such a big difference in the world with that, I think that's the other thing that they were doing was it was so much more than being like, perfect, or technically brilliant. It was about like sharing a real gift with people. And so I sort of grew up with that idea. And then on top of that, I was really lucky that both of my brothers are quite musical. So we would often just jam together and play together. And then when I went off to high school, a lot of my friends were musical and musicians. And I don't know, I I feel almost like spoiled now that I've met other people who haven't had that experience and really had to fight to kind of play music, even in terms of like, sort of going against maybe what their families, you know, would like them to do and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, very lucky that musics just been around me, and I've been immersed in it. And if anything, I probably just came to it because there wasn't much else I could do. I'm just like, quite good at this. I'm not quite not very good at much else. So. Yeah, sort of how I'm sort of, yeah, found music. It was very organic. Yeah, that is such an awesome story. I love that so much. It was so normal for us that I thought nothing of it. And if anything, I just shrugged my shot I did. And it's only been in the last year or two. That's amazing. That's a really amazing and inspiring thing to see your parents go off and do. Yeah, and that thing to that, you know, in them. I'm not sure exactly how old they were, but just say, midlife they've gone, I'm gonna totally change my career, I'm gonna take this, maybe take a risk, you know, financially, it's like, let's do this, just do something that we love. And that is so inspiring is fine. Yeah, they would have been a fair bit older than I am now. And so to think that there's, I think sometimes as an artist, and maybe especially as a female artist, I'm not sure about that. Maybe I should talk to my male friends and see if they feel the same way that you can feel like time is running out. And that clock is ticking. And oh, shit. Um, you know, I'm turning 40 Soon, and I haven't done the things I wanted to do, or a bit of probably not the same thing when I was like, in my late 20s, about turning 30. And, actually, yeah, to sort of go up, I've got plenty of time. Yes. Sort of, like, try other things. And yeah, and get this stuff done that I want to get done. You know, it's really helped me not feel like there's this mad rush. Yeah, it's really, it's almost like an empowerment that you can take the pressure off yourself. And I can sort of relate this to the kids like my son's in high school, and they start sort of on their paths of what they're going to do when they leave school. And so I keep saying to him, like I was what was I foot nearly 40 When I finally found the job that I loved, you know, you don't have to know straight away, or they do they put so much pressure on these like 1617 year olds to make these, you know, really important decisions to pick a perfect subject and your whole life will depend on it. And I just, yeah, say the same thing to my son. I'm like, whatever. You just work, you know, just do whatever you like, you know, whatever you're doing at the time, try and do your best but it's not this sort of Yeah, it's not a life or death situation. That's it, isn't it? Time to explore the world and yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You actually have to get out in the world and see how you feel in the world. And absolutely, maybe what are the things you enjoy? Right, I'm gonna leave school and go to uni and I'm gonna drop and that's it your whole life Smackdown was like, that's just so unreasonable, unreasonable and like the stories you know, just like friend after friend after friend who went and started a uni course. And within a year had gone this is so not for me. So like, you know, there's yeah, there's just no rush. It's a really nice Yeah, absolutely. Gosh. Being exposed to the music with your parents, did you start playing particular instruments? At that point? What were you playing? Yeah. So again, when I was quite young, there was this. I just feel so lucky for these rich experiences that I totally took for granted as a child, but there was a woman in my neighborhood who was she played piano? Like, I think back in Dancehall, dancehalls, back in the day, and so she just like, as a very local little business, just all the little kids in the area would go to her house and learn the piano. And you'd get your lowly and you learn your scales, and you'd go through your books, but the thing about her that really set her apart is like she was, you know, I thought of her I think she was you know, quite, she wasn't old, she's still with us. So she's not like that, you know, she was quite a lot older than say, like my parents at the time. And she was so different to so many, like, sort of music teachers in that it didn't take her long to work out that my heart wasn't in all the technical stuff. And also that, you know, I like to sing. So from a really young age, she kind of worked that out. And she was like, Well, I'm going to teach you how to like play chords and accompany yourself, and I'm going to teach you how to improvise. And like, you know, we're not just going to play fair release. And the entertainer and I did do a bit of this wonderful piano teacher who like really picked up early that I wanted to learn that kind of stuff. Maybe even before I knew that, that's what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I've played the piano forever and, and have learnt piano in a way where I've been able to accompany myself to sing since I was practically a kid. And so that's always been a part from my voice. I'm a singer first, but piano would be my secondary instrument. And that's generally the instrument that I write with. And when I'm writing music, and then, you know, just in those sort of primary school and high school years, I dabbled in the flute. And I wasn't bad at it, but my heart wasn't in it. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. The guitar. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's always time. I love that. That story about your music teacher that that is such a gift for her to give you because so many music teachers, it's like theory. You know, like I, I, my experience was with teachers that basically you had to learn your scales yet to know what all the notes were called, and how long you held them for. And I just wanted to play stuff by ear. And it was like, really, like, my, my teacher wasn't as amazing as yours. But I think back now, like, I would have loved to have just learned how to accompany myself, that would have been amazing. Well, she was yeah, she was quite an amazing woman. And actually, a few years ago, I felt really compelled to reach out and thank her and I wrote her this letter, just like, Oh, my God, you're amazing. Thank you. And I got this beautiful letter back. And I think she'd be in her like late 80s by now. The funny thing is, though, when she was teaching me what I think she must have been quite brilliant. Because while she kind of adapted the lessons to suit me and my needs, she somehow was sneaking that theory. And I actually have got a fairly good, you know, theoretical foundation, but really kind of managed to do it in a way where it was helpful or making sense to the end. Yeah, relative to what you wanted to do with your music like, yeah, she's, yeah, she whatever she was, she was working her magic. That's for sure. What a gem of a woman honestly. That's honestly, we should all have a lady like that in our lights. Just be amazing. Marge Williams is her name. Good. Good on your Marge. Give her a shout out. I wish I had met Marge when I was when I was a little girl. That would have been amazing. Yeah. So the game All right. at the moment with your music is your music your life? That's what you do you. Yeah. So, in a roundabout way, I've managed to get to a point in my life where I can sort of comfortably say that I make my living as a musician. But like, realistically, that, Oh, quite a fair percentage of that living is coming from being like, like working in the teaching field, as well as performing and recording and all of those things. I'm really fortunate to have quite a good teaching job at a university here in Melbourne, where I teach mostly singing, like a one on one singing lessons to the students that come through. But I also help, you know, work with bands, and, you know, mentor some of that, you know, mentor the students through some of those processes and classes. And then on top of that, yeah, my, so, artistically, the thing that I'm most passionate about, and I'm always working towards, sometimes slowly, but is my own music that I write. And that I really, yeah, I pour a lot of myself into. And then I guess the other thing, and obviously, work has been quite quiet in the last couple of years due to COVID. But as a singer, like, as a vocalist, I can Yeah, I often work in that field, I guess for other people. So doing session work in studios for like, people that need a, you know, a vocal line on this particular track, or a harmony or a demo and, and working as a backing vocalist for other artists as well. So through or So like most, I think, not just me, I think like most artists, you generally you don't have like that sort of nine to five, steady job, you just you have your fingers in all of the pies, and you kind of slowly build whatever it is that you're building that way, which in some ways is kind of stressful, because you can't remember what do I do on Wednesday. And, you know, there can be dips financially, of course, especially when we're in COVID. But even before that, to be honest, but I also know I wasn't built for a nine to five job. So in many ways, it's thrilling to be doing a few different things. And I get quite excited when I'm looking in my diary and I'm like, Oh, I've been booked for that session next week cool, like different people different kinds of environments. So yeah, yeah. Without the teaching work It'd be impossible Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that you but you're still so involved in music like it's not like it doesn't probably doesn't feel like a real autonomous a real job because it is a real job but you know, you're you're really enjoying what you're doing. Absolutely. I there are things about teaching that can be quite draining and you know, because I put a lot of myself into it. But there are also like yeah, I'm still like I'm surrounded by music every day many of my students inspire me I work I have amazing peers so like other teachers that I work with they're all musicians so I'm sort of like spending time in that world still yeah work yeah sounds awesome yeah day and God fashion keep it to myself most days I struggle to this crew good. Kids my thing carefree was counting on. But it's a bit of an intro into your children. I came into what were you doing at the time when you had your children? Oh, goodness, okay, so I have, my son is almost 16. And my daughter is 11. And my son in particular came along in a very interesting time. I was studying music at university. So I went straight out of high school into a music course that I studied is like a jazz kind of improv course, which was interesting. And in that final semester, of the entire course, I discovered I was pregnant. And that was quite intense. Because I was trying to like, sort of start this music, career, whatever that is. The same time, I suddenly had this, like, human being that was like, gonna need my care. So I had him when I was 21. So nearly my, so my entire music career really has coincided with raising a child, which has been, which has had some real positives, and has also obviously presented quite a few challenges. Yeah, he's sort of been with me every step of the way. And, yeah, it's been. Yeah, overall, it's been a really great thing. And yeah, I guess the main, the main thing that I now know, looking back, not that I would change a thing, but I never really got those years prior to kids to build something up first. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, like my 20s. You know, for instance, I didn't spend my 20s being able to just say yes to every opportunity, or like, just be like, yes, we'd all go on that tour. See, everyone, I had to be from sort of day one, I never stopped, like, I always like, you know, I released an EP not long after he was born, which, kind of like, Oh, my God, how did I do that. However, I probably never had quite the capacity to take things as far as I would have liked. Because like, the child comes first. Like, that's the reality. And so like, my music always played, like a really close second to my number one priority, which was, you know, raising this beautiful boy. So. Yeah, that's, that's just how that's just how it has been for me, like music and parenting have always had to coexist. I don't remember ever. Yeah, obviously, like, I've got an amazing partner. We've been together for a long time. And so I've never had to do it all alone, which is great. But like just little things, like, I don't know what it's like to book a gig without also going, who's gonna watch the kids? I actually never had that experience. It's always been those two things happening at the same time. So yeah, it's a unique perspective, isn't it? It's a little different. Yeah, and I can definitely see how it would have its positives. It does. Yeah, there have definitely been positive. So the positive that I'm feeling now and the so like, you know, the positive place that I find myself in now, is I'm currently at a place with an 11 year old and an almost 16 year old who are pretty independent. And I now have this time and space and energy to be really going for it. And so where a lot of my friends who like have done a lot of their now maybe like they've got toddlers, or they've just had a baby. And so well, while a lot of my peers are probably like slowing down a little bit, which is so fine. They should, they've got kids that need that care. I'm at a place now where I'm really like, much more sort of time rich, and kind of really go for it. And the fact is, I think my music is better now than it was when I was 2122 23. So I could have you know, the energy and the time that I could have poured into my art back then I'm sure it would have been great. But actually, I think the work I'm making is better now with maturity. And now I have this energy also to kind of Yeah, kind of play with I guess. I think the other thing that helps sort of having children along pretty much from the beginning is you. You tend to I don't want to say you use your time well, because people who know me would know that I'm not great at that. But I guess like as in I'm a terrible planner, and I can, you know, procrastinate like anybody's business. But I guess the thing that I do know when you know if you've got to babysitter, and you need to be, you know, so you've aren't, hey, I've got a rehearsal. And I've asked someone to watch the kids till you know, this time, you don't just wander into that rehearsal and blah, blah, blah and wait, like, so you have shorter pockets of time. And so you bloody well use them properly. And so what I found is like, yeah, like, so? Yeah, you it's almost like you get these pockets of time, you don't have just like this rich expanse, expensive time just before you when you can do whatever you want. And slowly, you know, kind of work on songwriting, or rehearsal or recording session, like, sometimes your time is limited, generally, always, to be honest. And as a result, you get quite good at working pretty fast. If I'm honest. Like, yeah, I'm pretty good at getting in and out of the studio, like, position work. And I reckon, part of that has just been through experience where I'm like, Well, I've got to leave it midday. So I think I've got that skill where I can be a little bit like, when I really have to focus on time, creatively, I can kind of just get it done. Same with songwriting, like I really, I mean, I don't, I'm not a prolific songwriter, like, I don't write heaps. But I do feel like when I'm like, Okay, I've got this time, I've got this energy and like, say, when the kids were younger, you know, the kids are occupied, or away or whatever, and I've got these few hours, I would generally walk out of there with a song or two, because it was like, I have to, really, ya know, so that kind of time pressure can work. to your advantage. Also, there's the flip side to that, where the time pressure can be a massive disadvantage in terms of just not having the space and the time that you would want to give to your art. Yeah, so there's like the payoff of that as well. But I think yeah, really fast. Yeah, yeah. It's it's instilled those skills in you and then you can you can take that through the rest of your life really. Because you just want to be. conscious. You mentioned because you had your son, like, you've never known your career without your son. What was that like then for you being in that world with other musicians, other women who weren't mums yet? Was that how did that feel for you being in that environment? Yeah. So there were, again, musicians, like, especially female musicians, are just beautiful people. And so while I was, for a long time, the only one in my peer group with a child, you know, I used to, like I'm thinking back two years ago, like a long time ago, when he was quite little. And I was actually in this singing group with three other singers. And one of them has gone on to just be absolutely amazing. I'm sure you've heard of it. Ainsley wills. She's like, the best. Anyway, and I remember, I would just take the baby to rehearsals, and they were so lovely. They would like hold him that because it was so cute. Get a lot of like that kind of, oh, we'll hold him and we'll look after him and using that. And so I remember back in the day, actually having a lot of support in the moment, like the other musicians were absolutely amazing. I had an I had a band at the time, and we would rehearse weekly and sometimes I just have to bring, you know, my top baby or toddler with me, and you know, and actually everyone else in that band would dudes. Yeah, some of them were my brothers. So they were like uncles to the to the baby. But you know, our guitarist wasn't and I don't know, he could have just been like, this is crap. I'm, you know, I didn't sign up to kind of come to the studio and keep climbing all over my face, so generous and so kind about it. And so musicians in general, were pretty lovely, and pretty welcoming. I think where it became a challenge was more than just the industry wasn't set up for it. So while individuals within the industry were like, so beautiful, so kind, really found Yeah, the whole situation, I'm sure they were all a bit like, Oh my God, but you know, they were like, is like, our friends got a baby. It's so weird, but um, yeah, everyone was lovely. But it was more when it came to things like geeks and knights and just being like, we can't bring him here, you know, it's dirty, there's no way to breastfeed or change a nappy. You know, I really found that within Melbourne, like, where I live, I was very active in the music scene, and, you know, still am. But if I've never really felt I had the capacity. I know, some parents do. And I'm just like, wow, they're amazing, but I never really felt like I had the capacity to tour. So I've never really even even now like, have never really too much. Or like, sort of been able to spread further than that, because I just didn't feel like there was much space or capacity there to like, take him with me, or, you know, the alternative, I guess would be to leave him for long stretches of time, which again, like, I've thrown no shade on parents who can do that. Like it's just each to their own. Just with, I guess, my parenting style and his personality and needs. That actually didn't feel like an option either. Where I could sort of almost be like, Alright, you're staying at Nando's for two weeks, I'm off. That was just, that was just not a way that we could do things for him. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. But like, no, yeah, other women and like my peers, my friends. They were so lovely. It was actually divine, like the way they kind of embraced this little baby and toddler who was sometimes at rehearsals, and sometimes it gigs. And, you know, even though none of them had kids, so they'll probably all a bit like, I don't know what to do, but they would hold him or Yeah, you know. But it was more yet the industry as a general kind of beast, I guess. Yeah, my, my, my place there felt a little. I don't know, where Be quiet anymore. Yeah. I'm going off track slightly. But do you think that is because it's mainly a male dominated industry? Or has been in the past? Yeah, I think so. Totally. And I think it's changing. And I think that's really exciting. Yeah, like men, you know, historically, can have kids, and still go off and do their own thing, you know. And, yeah, I think that's definitely, you know, how the world works, too. This is not just the music scene, it's the patriarchy and action. But I do feel like it's changing, I just think the changes are slow. And I think it's different. Now I see friends who sort of musician friends with babies now. And I think that the capacity that they have, and the understanding that they have from other people, I think, is better than probably I had at the time. Also, I've gotta remember, I was very young, I wasn't hugely educated. And so I probably didn't have the capacity personally to like, advocate for things that maybe I would now as a 37 year old woman, like, hey, use rehearsal space, I'm going to have to bring my child wet, you know, like, I'm gonna have to feed him, what are you going to do to help me like, you person to begin with, and especially when I was 21, and probably much more overwhelmed than I allowed myself to kind of think I was, I wasn't gonna ask that I was just gonna, like, yeah. Or, or, or see that as an opportunity that I couldn't have or I don't know, feed him in the car, or, you know, so I think sometimes, you know, having a little bit more, you know, a few more years behind you, and just a bit more confidence. I've advocated for myself a little bit more and being a bit more assertive, but I think the industry is changing. Like, there are so many more women speaking up in the industry, about and not just about motherhood, but just about sexism in general. And just small things like, you know, there are more I'm seeing more females working in manager, you know, like artist manager roles who are female, so they're just gonna have a, I'm sure, just more empathy for the say, their female clients around some of this stuff. I'm seeing more female sound engineers and producers, and I think that is really, really important. publicists did just seem to be a whole bunch of dudes back in the day. Doing that stuff. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's changing but I just think like anything in life changes are slow. So especially when you're trying to change Something that's been endemic since the beginning of time, but seems like we're looking at like this tiny little kind of music industry. I don't know, from my perspective in Melbourne even like, yeah, yeah, that's it. We're talking about an issue that is like, just the way humanity has been built for a very long time. So, yeah, yeah, I can see. Yeah, but I think more more and more women, a lot of performers who have children, I guess it may be being like, if I'm maybe social media, I think social media can be a bit. Yeah, um, but I think sometimes social media might be great in that way that they might post like, they're on tour, but you can see the kid in the backseat of the car, or, you know, I don't know. So maybe, maybe like, you know, female artists sharing their experiences of like, motherhood and the road or motherhood and recording or just motherhood in any sort of arts practice. Just makes it again, it just normalizes it. That's it, isn't it? And it makes it sound achievable for yourself. Because like you said, as a 21 year old, though, that that wasn't in you at that stage. But maybe if social media had been around, or if you had seen someone do it, you would have thought hang on a sec. That's, that is acceptable. I'm gonna have a crack at this sort of, sort of mentality. Yeah, yeah, just seeing some art. Okay. There are a few other artists, you know, doing this as well, because yeah, I definitely felt while everyone was so kind, you know, my other musician, friends, I think, you know, when you're in something, it's very hard to really know how you feel. Because I know when you've just had a baby, sometimes you're in survival mode to a certain extent you just like, head down doing what you got to do. And so I think now that sort of time has passed, I can be a bit more reflective. And I think I was, I think there was still a sense, even though no one overtly excluded me, ever. I do think I felt very alone. Because I didn't have other peers really having that same experience. And then the few people I would look up to and like, oh, wow, that person is a mother and a singer, songwriter, too. They wouldn't maybe I still felt alone in that a little because maybe they'd had their kids a bit later. And so they still had maybe a bit more of an established Korea. Look up to them. Okay, I'll just do what they do. And then I just almost find that really disheartening. Almost more so because I'm like, they're like, doing it all like, and they've got kids and I'm not doing it all. Yeah, so yeah, it was a bit lonely at times. Buried, you came alone with your shop, silent, said, get out, get in, just get to your beauty, your voice your take on a magic. I want to ask you about when you said before, that you you did your AP, when your son was young? And you said I don't know how I did it. Yeah. How did you actually do it? Was he? Is he coming with you a lot? Yeah. Like, how to physically manage it. The first thing to know about my son and my daughter. And it is what it is like. And again, like when it comes to parenting and how we do it. I just have no, I just people do what they've got to do. Like, I just do not care how other people like feed their kids sleep their kids like you do what you got to do. For me, personally, neither of my kids. So it wasn't because like of my own belief system around feeding, but neither of my kids would take a bottle. So the only way they were fed was via me for you know, 18 months, both of them my daughter a bit longer. So they were breastfed, which just meant they couldn't not be with me for long. So the hours so how did I do that EP, I think I had started recording it before he was born. Which helped so I think a lot of the work had been done. And then I think I did little short recording sessions in around feeds Due to finish off some of the vocal stuff, and then when it came time, I guess to like launching it, you know, like playing it playing like some shows and try to build up a bit of publicity around it, which again, like things have changed a bit, I probably would now, looking back, hire a publicist, which I didn't at the time, so it was just a lot of email, beat magazine, and whatever else it was. I just sort of it was just in snatched moments. i Yeah. And I don't know if that's the most sustainable way to do it. But I don't know any other way. I could have done it. Late nights when the babies are finally asleep. That was often when I would sit on the computer and email out my, you know, although Admony type parts of music rehearsals were Yeah, like, he'd be there. And just thankfully, my musician friends were cool with that. Yeah, the actual launch. I remember, I remember the gig, it was a great gig. It was really, you know, everyone came it was, I was so blessed. You know, like, it was a really beautiful moment. And yeah, we brought him. And so yeah, it was sort of this bar. I'm looking back, nothing was even allowed in there. I don't know. But you know, like a band room and a bar. And it was really crowded. And, you know, it was a great show. And yeah, just with this, I think by then you might have been walking, you know, like, sort of toddler age, just sort of this little toddler near the front of the stage. And it was stressful, because like, I think what we sort of had arranged was like, he'll come but people, they're sort of watching him like my mom or whatever. But no one quite watches your child the way you would. So I remember just being on stage and just being like someone grabbing plays, you know, like, he was too close. But like not like just all like I'm literally performed. Internally, almost just yelling at people like, move him grab him. He's too close to that, or whatever it was. Yeah. Looking back. That's not a way to perform. Hey, but yeah, so in hindsight, I probably would have just booked a babysitter and not had him there. at them, you know, in the moment, it felt like the right thing to do to have him there with us. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think snatches of time is probably the best way to describe, especially those early days when you know, you're fairly sleep deprived, or, you know, they're very kids are very young. Yeah. Like parenting is like a lifelong journey. Like you're never not a parent, you're always on. But those early years, that, like the time that is required of you is very demanding. Yeah, that's it, that changes when they get older, which is really great. And I'm sort of, I think, you know, enjoying the benefits of that now. But also, they become more complex human beings. So I find it emotionally more challenging now. Yeah. But I am getting sleep. And I go somewhere during the day, and my son, gets himself to school, gets himself home, if he wants to go out on the weekend, like, we're at that stage where I'm just like, Oh, my goodness, like so independent. It's brilliant. I love it. And I'm so happy for him because he's obviously enjoying that independence. And yeah, when you think back to just like, oh, you couldn't leave me for more than two hours? Because it is so nice to be in that space. But yeah, then you I don't know. Because you you said you've got a 14 year old that I worry one out or I'm not emotionally like, oh, yeah, it's a whole different ballgame. Isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, like, yeah, the emotionally draining is a good way of describing it. Because you're, yeah, you're just you're trying to solve problems for him. I help him through things and issues with mental health. And yes, yes. This Yeah. Like you become a psychologist. And yeah, my sister in law, Nicole said recently because her kids are sort of my age, but we have nephews and nieces. Who are that younger age, that sort of baby toddler. And yeah, like, she just sort of commented like in a family thread recently, like, Oh, those beautiful days. I miss them. Like, yeah, they were demanding, but they weren't complex. Like, Oh, I feel every word of that. Yeah. So it's a different type of energy that you're pouring into your children, but you never stop. And I'm sure when they're 20 3040. Like, you'll That's it, isn't it? Yeah. It'll be it'll be something it'll be different again. It'll be Yeah, another thing. seems insane to say this, but then maybe there'll be grandkids and you're like, yeah, what's my role here? But I'm gonna use to believe that I'm still way too young to even consider that. So. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I'll come back to you in like 30 is time when you're doing the grandmother artist. thing. That's awesome. Well, I won't have to worry about one of my kids, because my eldest has told me that he's never having children because it's just too hard. He's seen what we were going through. He's living with a six year old. So he's like, I'm not having kids. We're modeling like, how hard it is. Yeah. Yeah.Because you're gonna want to tow back to? So one of the questions I asked my mums is about before you had kids, what was your influences for your art? And then after you have kids? So asking you this is going to be a little bit different? Because I mean, I'm sure you're going to have some, you know, obviously, to music when you're a child, but in terms of what's influenced you, have you noticed that that has changed? Or how you look at your music? Or I don't know what what sort of changes has your own creativity gone through? As you became a mom? Yeah, I think I think the thing? That's a great question. Like, musically, my influences were pretty broad growing up, and I don't think that's changed. You know, like, one day, all I want to do is listen to Abba. And then the next thing I just want to listen to, like, you know, I actually listened to a lot of classical and choral music, and I don't make that music. But it's often what inspires me the harmony in that is so rich, I love harmony. Actually, that's like probably a big part of what I'm drawn to as a musician is harmony and melody. And so I listen to a lot of music that feels quite dense and rich in that way. As I said before, like before my son came along, I was training more in that sort of jazz wealth, and so was playing quite a lot of jazz music. And a lot of those sort of early jazz singers really inspired me in terms of their vocal sound. So like I absolutely I do absolutely love Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Billie Holiday. huge Beatles fan of course. Yes. My parents pretty much raised me on on the Beatles. And again, their harmony always three. In terms of the Yeah, what inspires me now I think the one thing I feel like my 20s were a little different, right? So a lot of music that's often about like, heartbreak and breaking up, or will we or won't we like just for whatever reason, like I kind of, I found my partner quite young. And we had quite a different experience, like in our 20s. And so I guess sometimes that music even I can really love it. It's not necessarily themes that I'm super drawn to. I guess I'm drawn to themes, like Yeah, so I really loved clear that Bowditch I've never known whether it's Bowditch about it, by the way, but you know what I mean? Yes, I do know, album that came up, actually, when my son was quite little. That was the whole theme was grief. Yeah, I, that had a huge impact on me, because I was like, Oh, you can write a whole album on grief. Like, you don't have to write a whole album on like, you broke up with me, and I'm gonna break up with you. And now we're back together. Because I guess a lot of like, songs in the popular culture are still like, some version of a love song. Yet she wrote this incredible indie pop album on grief. So do you remember what the name of that album was? I do now it was what was left. So it was. That's funny that I just said it. Yes. So she made the album in 2005. And my son was born 2006. So I really remember listening to that. I don't even remember that I was stuck in a lot of grief at the time. But it was more like there were growing up themes. You know, there were real life themes. And they were themes that I kind of that really resonated with me so that that album actually had a huge impact because it showed me that there were other things I could write about. And I could write about things that were really real to me. You know, one of the songs that is on my new album that is still you know, in we're in the process of making and releasing is actually just all without boundaries, I would not have written a song about boundaries when I was 18. Because it's not very sexy at all. I really like it. You know, like, that stuff's important to me. Yes. So, so that album had huge impacts and a huge impact on me. from more of a lyrical perspective, yeah. And then like, musically, my tastes have just never really changed because they were always broad to begin with. And they remain really broad. So I listened to a lot of music that I know I'll never make, like I listen to a lot of neo soul. I'm probably not going to make me I mean, I love it. You know, Jill Scott is one of my favorite singers. And I also just know straight up that I will never sound anything like Jill Scott or make me look like us. But I still love absolutely love her. So I don't. Yeah, don't necessarily always listen to a lot of music that's similar to the music I make. But I don't know, I think that can really make help you be really well rounded to when you're really open to all sorts of styles. And, yeah, I'm so sorry. That's my dog. Oh, hey, puppy. Sorry. I had my cat in here before and she's got a little bell on a collar. And I was like, Don't scratch your head. It's actually not much of a back and normally I think maybe another dog walk by what sort of dog is he? He's a stuffy cross. We don't know what we use in rescue dog. Yeah, and he's one my heart big. Heart. Yeah, he's funny. Yesterday, I interviewed a lady and she had a stuffy as well. Oh, really? And it my son's been on this bandwagon that he wants to get a stuffy and I was like maybe the universe is telling me something. While banjo is a real sweetheart. Yeah, like he was pretty full on when we got him because he was a rescue and hadn't. Yeah, he we pretty much were starting from scratch with him. Yeah, yeah, he's just Yeah, cuddly and but anyway, I think he's still packing now. Good job AJ. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I was a new member too. Yeah, when you saying before about influences, but they're not necessarily what you put in your music. I appreciate the Beatles so much because of what they've allowed me to understand about how you can present your music. Like, you can do whatever the hell you want. Like, honestly, I play this. And like if you want to, like play, record your guitar solo, and then play it backwards. You can do that. And then you can. But the thing that got me was like, changes of tempo within songs and different elements that go together to make the same song but it's like you're just grabbing stuff from everywhere. And I was just like, I don't have I had a poster on my wall. I've got my Abbott poster up there. And I did have one but it failed. Me Oh my God, and harmonies, harmonies just a massive thing that I love so much. Yeah, it's just like, can just be shown what's like, same thing with your example. With clear it's like, you can write an album on whatever you'd like. Like, I call it the Taylor Swift music like the we broke up and we're getting back together. And then you didn't call me about you know, all this, which I see is really frivolous now, because I'm, you know, happily married and have lots of, you know, security about my life. But I think you know, I can understand where that fits in. But yeah, there's just so much depth to stuff and a singer songwriter that I really admire. Jen lash, I'm not sure if you've heard of Jen. She's a South Australian artist. And look her up. I think you'd really like her music. She's, and she's been a guest on my podcast, and I kind of see her as a bit of a mentor. I don't know if she knows that. Hi. All my mentors have no idea that they might Yes. She inspired me to be able to write songs about really difficult subjects, but make them really listening. So the musical in her words, the musical treatment that she gives that song allows it to be like received by people sort of thing. And about a topic that's very jarring. Yeah, maybe maybe the music can be jarring, too. But maybe you're gonna let more people in if allows that. Yeah. And so yeah, she really inspired me With a song that she wrote about postnatal depression called called Wolf, and when I heard I saw she sang it live. She came down here as part of a sort of a was called Palomino nights at the wall shed it was in this old watershed down in Glencoe. And she performed in this space and when I heard that song, I just went, oh my god, like it was like someone had slapped me in the face and gone. Yeah, you can do stuff about anything. Yeah, so she's really inspired me. Jen lash. Okay. Look her up. Jen's amazing. I love Jen so much. And she's listened to her episode, because she's got such an amazing way of speaking the way she articulates things. She's just such a wordsmith like, Ah, just love. I will definitely listen. Yeah. Yeah, just knowing that you can write about anything, I think was really? Yeah, that's definitely what that clear album did for me. And then you've got that album. She bought out years later, which was the winter I chose happiness, where the theme was almost about this kind of like, so she done his album about grief. And then years later, she did this album. But it wasn't that frivolous happiness. It was, like real choice. Like it was like an oyster kind of. And so again, that another album she might use later also had huge impacts on me like, oh, you can write about happiness without being cheesy. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So yeah, just, yeah. How good is music? So lucky? This? Pretty much you will never hear it all, you know? Yeah. Yeah. People always, actually, because I work with students. They're often like, oh, have you heard blah, blah, blah. And I'll be someone a bit younger. So someone I haven't heard of. And, you know, my mind is just continually blown. Yeah. Let's see. I go through phases, like where I deliberately don't listen to current music, because I want to stay in the past in some way. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to admit that I don't know what's happening right now in music. Like I just I like to know, I like to be able to sing along and I know what's coming. But then sometimes I think I'm missing out on so much, if I don't you know it, because there's so much amazing stuff being done. Some of it's a lot of crap. But there is a lot of crap. There is a lot of crap. And I think therefore we sort of go, it's all crap. Yeah, you can kind of like wade through the crap. There is also just some amazing. Yeah, there's sort of amazing music being made at the moment. But it's also not the music that's necessarily in the top 20. So yeah, that's it is more. Yeah. And I think over the years, I've become a lot. Obviously, as you get older, you understand things, you understand how things work, and the thought the whole thing about the NSA pop, you know, in inverted commas, because it's not necessarily I don't know, any music can be popular, but I'm talking about in a commercial sense. Yeah, it is really is just a big business. You know, it's just about producers, people, finding people, people making money off those people and, and the person themselves becomes the product. And yeah, always freaks me out a bit, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've come, I've come quite jaded of that. And, and not wanting to care. Like, I know, like, commercial radio is literally commercial radio. Like, it's just people, they pay the money to have the songs on. And so I've had a bit of a wake up call, like, for many years, it's like, I just want to be, I want to be on the radio, I want my songs on the radio. And then when I understood it, I was like, no, actually, I want my songs on community radio, because that's where the relationships are. And that's where your people care about the songs they're playing. They have a choice about the songs they're playing, you know? Yeah, so that yeah, no, that's it. Yeah, you're so right. Like, I mean, yeah. Also, I think just the way music and how people listen to music is changing. So I'm not even sure anymore, that being getting on the radio isn't necessarily the golden ones. Still space for it. And especially think there's space for community radio, like here in Melbourne, we've got like PBS and triple out there, and they're huge stations, and they're amazing. And you know, to be on one of those stations. I think it's fantastic. But yeah, I don't know, you know, there are so many ways people can access music now that, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's probably one of many ways you can reach an audience, but maybe not sort of the only way. Yeah, it used to feel Yeah, absolutely. Quite, sort of, unless you were on the radio. It was like no one ever heard. You know, you can pay people to put your music on things and they were know, yeah, totally. But I mean, it's the world, isn't it? Yeah. Do you very expensive to be an independent musician, you know? Yeah, that'sthe thing. Isn't it no one tapped me on the shoulder and goes, Hi, here's heap of money to record. Yeah, women? Oh, no, I'll do this and that for you. It's very parenting into the mix. I think it's, and I think that's part of the challenge is, I really believe in my music, I really do. I really think it's pretty good. You know, like, I'm not saying I'm the best out there or anything like that. But I know I can sing. I know I can write I know, I'm making a pretty good record. But when my confidence starts to fall down big time is actually when I start realizing like the costs in like releasing it and releasing it. Well. You know, whether it's paying a publicist or making a video or whatever, yeah. And then when you have children in the mix, it can be really hard to justify those costs when, you know, you've got to buy school uniforms, and CDs in classes and soccer, you know, like, it can seem really self indulgent, that you're really selfish. Yeah. So it's so that's probably where I'm finding myself at the moment a bit like, the confidence in the music is there again, which is so nice, you know? Because obviously, we have times where it's not. Yeah, but it's that kind of this is, this is such an endeavor to embark on. And how can I justify I can totally appreciate that. Like my husband said to me, when I print because I like to print say days and albums, because I think people's people still like to put things in means. I found what I when I used to play a lot of folk festivals, and I found that the seat Yeah, you still needed CDs. So like, yeah, so obviously, they're not gone. Yeah, I don't think they're gone. For them to be gone. Yeah, people are also buying finally again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. People like a tangible thing, man. Yeah. And I think that the amount of effort that I end the people I'm, like, work with to do my artwork. I think that it deserves a bigger, you know, platform than just a tiny little square on the iPhone or whatever. You know, the actual your actual artwork. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, my husband is like, have you worked here? How many? So I should preface this, my husband's a financial planner, right? We can be really handy are really annoying. We could not be different worlds, honestly. So yeah, it's like, how many CDs do you have to sell to be able to make your money back? I'm just like, I am not thinking about this. I'm thinking about creating my music and giving it to the world. That is, I know, thinking about and I remember like me with my like pea size, math brain. first EP and sort of trying to do the maths and in the arm, like I can't do the bloody maths, I'm just going to do it like, yeah. And, you know, probably to be honest, years later, having a few boxes of CDs still stashed under a bit. Think it's the same for everybody. It's always a boxer CD so. Now I guess that this topic is sort of leading into something that I love to talk to moms about. And it sounds nasty when I say I love to talk to you about your mom guilt. But I find it such a fascinating topic. Yeah, we put ourselves aside like literally what we've just been talking about, like, we feel like we have to justify ourselves because you know, that money could be paid for the school fees, or could be for the groceries, you know, how how do you sort of approach that mom guilt thing? First of all, for years, I really resisted the term. And even with credit, I'd be like, Well, I don't have no guilt. Good on me. I don't believe in it. It's bullshit, and I don't have it. And then in the last few years, like of course I have, I experienced guilt as a human being and part of that is around my mothering. So yes, technically, I experienced mother guilt. I experience it often around time. So even though my kids are a lot older, my daughter in particular, she really misses me when I do things. And in many ways that's very sweet. And in other ways, it's really had, um, I can be like, you know, spending a fair amount of time and energy on my art, which I think is really fair, because I also give a lot of energy to other people. And she'll actually like, you know, if I'm, I don't know, maybe I was at the studio all day and all night and didn't get home like, and I try my best to like, you know, communicate that in advance that maybe once or twice where like, because they're not home like, you know Dad's home. So it's not like they're home alone. But that can be a real, like, she can be really upset with me that the next day was just like, I didn't know, I didn't know you would be out too late and well, and I feel really bad around that stuff. So I'm trying to get trying to get better at like, not changing what I do, because I think it's really reasonable that I'm sometimes busy doing stuff that almost I think I could, yeah, so I can experience guilt around that, kind of like the time away that it can be. And like I said before, I don't even know if it's guilt, but it's maybe like the justification around like, the financial side of things. Like I think the reality is, like, we sort of, we grew up in a world where the idea of being a musician, so 2025 years ago, it was like, Well, you just get good, and then you meet the right people, and then you get signed to a contract, and they'll give you lots of money, and you'll make records, and actually realizing that happens to such a small percentage of including musicians who we would consider to be quite big and successful. Like, they're still doing it in a very different way, I have friends who I would consider like, on paper to be much more successful than I am as musicians, and they're still working other jobs or, you know, looking for funding for certain things, you know, so it's a very, most of us not doing it that way. And the reality that I'm sort of facing at the moment, really, with this album that I'm making is that it's costing quite a bit to make. So not only am I not making money, at the moment, I'm actually spending money to make my own art, that's not a job. It's not like it's when you think about what a job, you go to work, and you get paid. I'm going I'm I'm doing a lot of work. And also forking out money. So so the whole kind of, what am I actually doing? And why am I doing it can kind of creep in sometimes because it's not if you're if you know, I call it work, I call it like, you know, I'm an artist, and I'm working and I'm this is my project. But if I'm really honest, right now, it's sort of not work. It's, it's not bringing in, it's not bringing home the bacon. So I think the guilt can then arise when because we live in a capitalist society, where we value money. So I find it much easier, even now, even after all these years, it's much easier for me emotionally, to ask, for instance, for someone to babysit my kids, because I'm teaching because teaching brings home money. And so there's like, this is the most important thing in the world that we all need to do, we all need to make money, because that's the society we live in. And I need to go and make that money. So I feel quite justified. There's that word again, in getting help with the kids because we've got to make that money. But then I really can struggle with the same kind of asking for help or reprioritizing things to say, like make this record because it's not bringing in the money. And I think that comes down to Yeah, like we live in a society that still doesn't value things. Paying. So I trying to really, really kind of remind myself that this is an important expression of who I am. And that's why I have to give it time, and maybe that's why I even have to give up. You know, money. Because, yeah, it's I don't know, I hate talking about money, it makes everyone feel really uncomfortable. But I think it's also really important. It's a huge part of it can be a very big barrier to making art. And, yeah, when you have a family, it can be a barrier that you put on yourself because it just doesn't feel kind of right. But I'm really sort of trying to lean into the feeling that I have that for me at the moment. It is right and it is okay. But yeah, so I think it's really interesting, I think, yeah, how what we value in this society still often comes down to like, how much money you make from it. But why not just think of all the great artists you know, like, I mean, it's such a it's such a cliched example. that Van Gogh, you know, didn't make any money and we all now know that he's just the most brilliant artist. So just trying to like remember that this art is important and to try and not feel that guilt, whether it's the financial guilt or the time away guilt, which is a big one that I tend to feel. Well, the other the other guilt that I can sometimes feel is when I'm, and I'm sure a lot of parents might relate to this is when I really go for it, like I'm diving into a really creative space, whether it's just like, oh my god, like these songs are just churning within me or like I've booked out a few days in the studio, I'm just going for it, I'm the the first thing to kind of fall apart is just all the shit at home like dishes, washing, yep, eating healthy food. And again, I think that's a very sexy thing to talk about, like it's pretty boring and unglamorous. But part of our job as parents, I guess, is to kind of keep on top of some of that stuff. And I'm very, very aware that I have a partner who does more than 50% of that stuff. So I really can't complain. Especially, you know, I speak to a lot of females with male partners and, and find out that even though it's 2022, they still seem to seem to take on a huge percentage of that, and I know that I actually don't so I'm very, very fortunate. However, yeah, I can still feel like when I'm really kind of diving into some artistic spaces, mentally or emotionally, the house just turns to absolute shit. And, and that can actually bring up a bit of guilt for me too. Like, well, we're eating takeaway again, because I don't have time to cook because I've written five songs. Yeah. Yeah, so that's just another aspect of mom guilt that I definitely feel and I try to be okay with. exists, and we just have to, like, kind of know that it exists and acknowledge it. Like, I'm feeling guilty right now. Why is that reasonable? Am I being too hard on myself? Actually, it's, it's really fine that I've done those things, and it's fine. And then, you know, the, the other thing we've got to remember is occasionally guilt is healthy, and it is telling us something. Yeah, maybe I'm feeling mom guilt, because I actually haven't spoken to my kids for days. And I need to fix that, you know, like, so actually, like, might Yeah, I just try to be aware of how I feel, and then kind of sit with it, and then work through whether it's like, you know, a feeling that I need to kind of listen to or a feeling that I can sort of go that that's just like your kind of inner critic getting pretty loud in your head. Yeah, it can really your inner critic has one or two important things to say as well. So just knowing you is unhealthy, and when it might actually be just telling you something that you better like, come on. Yeah, no, that is the fourth time this week. They've beaten junk. So maybe it's really important tomorrow to prioritize some vegetables. You know what I mean? Like, so? Absolutely. I think yeah, I think you're right, I think you can definitely serve a purpose. It's definitely not a place. Yeah. But then when it turns into this, and I, whenever I say, ma'am, you I do the air quotes, because I feel like it's just the term has been constructed by a new social media hashtag, you know, it's this theme. This this plan, and, and that's why I hate saying it, but I feel like it's when I say, Do you feel guilty? That sounds really creepy. You know? You're not really, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that guilt? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty. Can we all please feel guilty together? It's just on the women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, we'll see. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? over last year, I did a couple of Father's Day episodes, especially ones where I chatted to dads about and it's it's a different kind of guilt. Yeah, they certainly feel it. But just, I think they're not expected to feel I think that's the difference. We're the ones who are supposed to wear it. Yeah, yeah, totally. And even like, I'm, like I said before, like, we've sort of really set our lives up, in a way, you know, in our family where I guess we don't necessarily play those traditional gender roles. Like, at the moment, I work more than my husband, like an extra day, he does all the washing, because I'm really bad at it. I don't know, he's actually much better at like remembering the admin sort of stuff around, you know, our that notice needs to be handed in. And we've got to pay that, you know, I'm pretty bad at all of that. So even though I live in a relationship that has really kind of, we've really intentionally tried to not just play those roles that can fall on you, because you are male, or female or whatever. Even within that year, I think I experienced more of the emotional kind of guilt. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll ask him and find out that. Maybe, yeah, maybe. So even if within your kind of nucleus family, you've got something really going on. That's pretty kind of countercultural, or whatever. We still are in a society that puts pressure on women and mothers to do it all and be at all. Yeah. And so yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not feeling guilty about the parenting and I'm really focusing on the parenting and, you know, doing great there, then I sort of start to feel a bit guilty about, oh, I'm not really doing any art or singing. So like, it's a little. A little sometimes that's just a load of crap. Whoever said that. He was the first person that said that should just because it mean, you can't you can, I heard someone say you can do it all. But you can't do it all at the same time. You know, like you go through phases in your life where, you know, your children are young. So you're focusing on your children, then you do your art, like, you can't, you can't do it all, you physically cannot do it all and also, mentally and in your heart. You can't do it all because you're torn all over the place. You know, totally. I also think I think just the way my brain works is I'm not very good at multitasking. So I think those people like I'm really good at like, diving in deep. So if I'm so I'm writing today, I'm probably just long writing. And if I'm just like, all in with like, hey, it's my day off, and I'm going to clean the house and I'm going to cook a really nice dinner and I'm going to pick my daughter up from school and we're going to go out for a milkshake, then I'm going to do that really, really well to not very good at trying to do both of those things at once. Yeah, I've always said yeah, you can do it all if you want to do it all pretty badly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you spread yourself so thin that nothing gets done. I don't wanna say well, but to the way that you probably want it to be done. You know? Yeah. Nice myth, isn't it? It's an urban myth. So going back to your your music and your identity, how you see yourself as a mother and as a musician and an artist, is it really important to you that your children's see, and I don't want to say I'm putting it in quotes, again, that you're just a mom, because you're never just a mom, that you are contributing to the world. Your your voice is being heard what you're saying is a value. Is that something that is important to you? Yeah, I think it's extremely important to me, both of my children in very different ways, obviously, showing to me that they're very creative people. And so I we really want to nurture that in them. Like my son is an amazing writer, like really incredible writer. My daughter is a natural dancer. And actually, funnily enough, I think she's also a really good singer, too. I have to like, listen out when she doesn't know I'm hearing it. Because I'm a singer. Yeah, there's some stuff there that we'll probably have to unpack that one day because yeah, she's a really great singer. When she was really little, I'd hear her in her room, listening to music, but harmonizing Oh, what? Oh, okay. Um, but she's pretty. She's done it a bit in the past in the last few years, like, if I'm like, Hey, John is seeing this, she's actually pretty reluctant. And that's fine. Like, I'm so not gonna push that. But I think she does have some natural talent there. Anyway, they're both really creative. And I think that's so beautiful. And so I would hate to be kind of creating an environment where they don't see that that's a really normal thing that you would want to foster their dad to. He's very creative. He he like, he wouldn't call himself a professional musician, but he loves music, and he plays in the past. He hasn't done it for a while, but he used to do like, some street art. He's always building things, you know, I'll say something like, oh, we need a box to plant some daffodils in and literally the next day. He's just found some wood and made a box. So and yes, he's a good visual artist. So pink growing up. I hope seeing that art is something that nourishes you. And, and yeah, I hope I hope I'm not I hope I'm modeling to them that I really love music, I guess the one worry I have is that they might see all the stress behind it. Yeah, I think they Yeah, so I know, it's really important to me that they know that creativity in whatever way or shape, you know, like, it doesn't have to be music. But creativity is something to be that we should honor and chat and spend time on. And that doesn't have to make you money. And if you make your living, you know, my son grows up one day to be a writer, my daughter grows up Monday to be a dancer. Wow, how amazing. But that's not even what I mean. It's it's about expression and about, you know how happy they are actually, when they do those things. And actually, I think when they see me when you strip away or they're like, I'm trying to be an independent music in the world, and I'm applying for funding, and I'm very, very strict like that when they actually see me like sit at the piano and just play and just seeing this seeing me really in my most pure kind of happy state. And they see that all the time. Yeah. So. So I think I'm more I'm hope that I'm modeling to them that in whatever way it looks like for you. And it can change as you change that creativity is just a really important thing to nurture within yourself. Because I think everyone is creative. Actually. Everyone. Yeah, but not all of them have been taught that that's okay. Or it's worth fostering or looking after? Yeah, I think. And maybe this is, I think, based on my experience with some people I've met along the way that a lot of angry people I know, are people who are not allowing themselves to be very creative and switch somewhere. And they just sort of hate everyone. And I really think that if you are if you allow yourself to, you know, yeah. Be creative. However, that is. I think you just yeah, like it's a bit cliche, but you're sort of tending to your soul a little bit. And then I think you just live in the world in a more well rounded, happy away. Yeah. So yeah, put that so well. Thank you. Very important to us, actually, as a family that we yeah, we do it and therefore hopefully, they just naturally do it, too. Yeah, that's it. Like like yourself growing up in your family, you saw that that is just part of a normal, everyday existence. This is not something that's out of the ordinary. You maybe didn't realize that till later. But, you know, this is a perfectly acceptable way to live your life like you don't have to be afraid of this. Yeah. And there have been times you know, when like, the kids were little aware, I wasn't spending heaps of time on music, but I actually was always being creative. So when I wasn't making music, I was I was writing the scenes. And when I wasn't writing scenes, I was like, bought a sewing machine. And I was trying to sew think I wasn't very good. But like I was sewing. Yeah, quarter like gardening now for me is a big one, like, so it's also like music is the thing that I come back to because I think, I don't know. It's like, it's in my DNA. It's who I am. And it's how I express myself in the world. But also just there are so yeah, showing them that there's just so many ways to be creative. Yeah, they can be small. They don't have to be big. Yeah, that's it and they don't have to be for anybody else. And they don't have to be clever monetary value placed on the me that they can be something. It's something for yourself, you know, so important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Best Use of my garden and losses, concert was born? Can you share with us what you might have coming up? You mentioned about your album that you're working on? Yeah. Have you got? And also have you got? I mean, I guess shows us starting up again in the world have you got anything you want to share that you've got coming up? Oh, so that Yeah, so the big, big one for me at the moment is the album that I've been making. And it's been a really long labor of love, like I always knew it would take time. But then right in the middle of it, we had a two year pandemic, which has had so many impacts a, it has impacts on time, because you can't like get to the studio. And then the other thing, like we've talked, we've talked about money a little bit today. But one of the things I do as a singer is, you know, when I do that backing vocals gig or I go on tour with that person on BBS, or I do that session work, that all generally gets generated back into the art that I make. So I lost all of that work. So then so so it's not just the time factor has slowed the record down, but it's actually the the income coming in to generate back into it slowed down as well. So COVID has really impacted it in a really huge way. However, we're really close to finish, like we finished recording the music, we're now mixing it and mastering it. And the hope was to release it at the start of this year. And now it's like we're going to release it towards the end of this year. And again, like you can have a plan. I don't know, I'm actually feeling really good about that. Now, I'd like you to have said right at the start, like, you've got time, you don't need to rush. Yeah. And I, I had a bit of an opportunity last year where I did something on TV. And so I was like, right, I've got to release it now because I got to ride that wave I'm gonna work out and I was like, Oh, I really disheartened by that. But in hindsight, it would have been rushed. And it actually wouldn't have been very good. And, and now I feel really good about sort of almost mapping out, you know, I don't know, like a six month plan and, you know, sharing the music, my music with the world really well and properly. So I don't have any gigs booked at the moment, because I'm super focused on the album. And what like, you know, as much as I hate to say it, social media plays a really big role in building my audience. So like, if anyone listening to this wants to follow me on the socials that would really be amazing. Or even sign up to my mailing list. Yeah, yeah, definitely put all the links, I'll put all the links in for people there. Cool. That would be really great. You know, that is sort of these days, I guess how we reach to a certain extent, at least, our audience, and of course, I would like to be gigging again. But I'm also really pacing myself, I want to do things well. Yeah. I don't want to just be throwing things together and quickly hopping back on stage. So we yeah, we will definitely be playing some shows when the album comes out, or there's single release or whatever. But yeah, choosing to take my time choosing to remember. Yeah, that I've got time. Yeah, that's what I think I think we can all take something from that, that it's, you know, we have got time. We don't have to rush. It's not a race and not to do things at our own pace. Yeah, totally. And obviously, the flip side to that is like, sometimes you need to give yourself a deadline. Otherwise, maybe I'll just be doing this for the next 10 years. So I know the deadline for me is by the end of this year, but what that looks like I still don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing and yeah, maybe yeah, if people find me on social media, then yeah, if a gig pops up, and sometimes I'm doing gigs for other people, you know, like, I might be backing vocals for someone and I can share that as well. Yeah, but at the moment, I'm actually yeah, just tucked away doing all the behind the scenes work. Yeah, all the really hard work. Oh, my God, I know, right? Jumping on stage at the NCAA. Put me in front of like 1000 people or 2000 people and tell me to sing no problem. Put me in a room with like two people where I'm like asking for funding and I'll be days before Yeah. And that's the thing too, like, unless you're in that musician, where Old, or even the artists will, all you see is that in result, all we see is that in product, so you don't understand all the stuff that goes in behind the scenes to make that product, you know? True and like, you know, I think I think I read it somewhere that way, often comparing our kind of, like, we know what we're doing behind the scenes. So we know how hard it is and how messy it is and how not not ready it is yet we can get that to like what everyone else's end product that they're showing online is, and I think it's we're gonna do that too. Like, eventually, when I released this album, it's probably going to look quite nice and shiny and like, hey, look, but like, yeah, we're hearing the journey, you know, to the destination of others. And that's not a very smart thing to do. Probably not very helpful. Your, your album journey sounds like mine, mine is just taking forever. And I don't care because I hate sitting. I hate setting deadlines, because I hate that pressure. Because you know, life happens and you have children. And you know, you can't just go by, I have to do this for my 14 year old having a breakdown, like Italy's life, and it's so good. So I'm working with these producers who are overseas, and they just only because we have nothing here and that Gambia we don't have access to any sort of recording studios or anything. And again, I'm not going to tell you I know this is the world now. You know, it's amazing. And sorry, I'm just gonna blog for a sec. But yeah, they're in Spain and Argentina. So I basically send them a video of what I want, I bang out the chords on my old Casio and say, this is the idea I've got, then they send back their idea made on computer instruments. And always I say yes, that's amazing, because it always is. And so then they, they organize the musicians to play it properly. Then they send it back and I do my vocals and then they mix it. So they're doing everything apart from mastering it. So it's just like, and I can just sit here in my little room in the middle of nowhere. And this album and I'm, it's so wonderful. I think, you know, there's so much stuff around technology that can bother me and just, and then I hear a story like that. And I'm so excited. I'm like, that's now a possibility. You're working with producers saying, you know, and me years ago, to know that this was coming that this was possible, I would never have believed it. You know, I always had this idea that I live in this little town. I didn't I never wanted to leave my little town because I love it. You know, I was born here. I've got my kids here. Even Adelaide, it's only five hours away, or Melbourne five hours away. But it's a different world. So I've never wanted to pick up and go right, I'm gonna go there and make my career. It's like, No, I want to do it in my, in my own terms in my own way. And it's like, finally the time has come. I can do it. You know. I love that. Yeah. bloom where you're planted, you know? Yes. You know, other people might have a completely different, you know, they do want to move and they want. And that's great. But I agree like, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to. That's the cool thing about being an artist. You can forge your own way. There's actually no real like, we think there's a way you've got to do it. But then when you start to talk people, everyone's winging it. Yeah. That's for some people that's moving overseas for other people. It's so not that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really exciting. Well, I can't wait to hear it. You'll be waiting a bit longer. I know these things take time. Okay, with that, I think yeah, and that's thing too, if you if you're the sort of person that can be settled and go, Okay, when it's ready, that's fine. You can you can do this. But if you're the sort of person it's like, I have to do I have to get done. You could not do this. You'd be off to wherever to record but you know, that's the great thing, too. We're all so different. And that's what makes the world go yeah, we're all doing the same thing. Today, Ms. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. I really loved it. Thank you so much. You're so lovely to talk to me about music and I love talking about my kids. So it's a pretty it's a pretty nice thing to do to sit down and have a chat with you. Yeah, no, thanks. It's been great. I've loved it. Always good. Always good to get a bit of Beatles chat in there somewhere. Anytime, Ill have to tell you my Paul McCartney story another time. Oh, okay. All right, To be continued. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review Are you following or subscribing to the podcast? Or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested? If you or someone you know who'd like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Jillian Lauren US best selling author + journalist S2 Ep70 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am thrilled to welcome Jillian Lauren to the podcast this week, a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock + roll wife + mother of 2 based in Los Angeles, United States Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey and graduated from Newark Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University. Soon after, she started exotic dancing in New York at the Kit Kat Club + became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the Prince of Brunei for 18 months. When Jillian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with an Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career, with Jillian's work since appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles Magazine. Jillian is a New York Times Best Selling author of 2 memoirs Some Girls: My Life in a Harem , about her experience as The Harem Girl, and Everything You Ever Wanted about her journey of adopting her son Tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tariku came to the family as an 18 month old, and brought with him intense trauma responses and during the next few years Jillian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her instincts. Jillian and her husband Scott Shriner (bassist from Weezer) added to their family in 2015 when they adopted through the US foster system their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and has an autism diagnosis. She has also written a fiction novel entitled Pretty and has an upcoming novel based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel Little called Behold the Monster coming out in 2023 . Several of Jillian’s manuscripts are being developed into TV + Film projects the most recent being Confronting a Serial Killer released on STARZ. The five-episode series tells the story of the relationship between Jillian Lauren + the most prolific serial killer in American history Sam Little, and her work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered, before he passes away. **This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss + miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer and does contain a bit of swearing** Visit Jillian's website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age + ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Jillian Lauren. Julian is a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock and roll wife and mother of two based in Los Angeles in the United States. Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey, and graduated from New York Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University and soon after started exotic dancing at the KitKat club and became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the prince of Brunei, where she stayed for 18 months. When Julian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career with Julian's work now appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles magazine. Julian is a New York Times best selling author of two memoirs, some girls my life in a harem about her experience as the harem girl and everything you ever wanted about her journey of adopting her son tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tarik, who came to the family as an 18 month old and brought with him intense trauma responses, and during the next few years, Julian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her own instincts. Jillian and her husband, Scott Shriner, the bass player from Weezer, added to their family in 2015. When they adopted through the US foster system, their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and an autism diagnosis. She's also written a fictional novel entitled prissy, and has an upcoming novel. Based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel little called Behold The Monster coming out in 2023 Several of Julian's manuscripts are being developed into TV and film projects, the most recent being confronting a serial killer released on stars. The five episode series tells the story of the relationship between Julian and the most prolific serial killer in American history, Sam little and Julian's work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered before he passes away. This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss and miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer, and it does contain a bit of swearing. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient new age music trio, LM J, which is comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Julian. It's a real pleasure to meet you. It is so nice to be here. Yeah. And it's funny. I feel like I kind of know I don't know you but I know so much about you through the memoirs that you've written. How did you first sort of get into writing? Well, I have kept a journal since I was eight. So I always wrote always, like I had that, you know, muscle in place. But you know, I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be director I want to be anything but a writer and it really took you know, a journey through some unusual places until I landed where I belong, you know, until I I said to myself, like, what is it that has been consistent in my life for all these years? What do you think? What do you think you were sort of pushing back against the writing that you didn't sort of validate it really hard? Really hard. It's, it's, it's hard to finish. It's hard to start. It's just hard. Like, if you can possibly choose anything else choose anything else? Well, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And, and being a memoirist, it's, you're very, you're being very vulnerable, which I want to commend you for too, because the things that you're sharing, you know, people can relate to, and it opens these opportunities for conversations, which are really important. Did you find was that the first sort of style of writing that you went to? Like, I guess, because if you're journaling in your diary, no, because I couldn't sell my first novel. Yeah. That's the memoir. To tell you the truth. I wanted nothing more than to never write that memoir. Yeah. Why to never write some girls, because I knew I knew was sensational. Like that it would get bought, very likely, you know, because I'm not the only woman who was over there. But, you know, I'm also a real writer. Yes. There are so many book clubs I go to where they're like, do you write your own book? I'm like, I'm the writer. Yeah. I'm not like a celebrity with a ghostwriter. Um, yeah, that's it. But it was really scary. And I knew what I was doing. And I tried very hard to eat much more New York curry. And that's always you know, how I saw myself, you know, at the Algonquin club or something, and I'm like, okay, given the times. And, you know, and they were like, nah, nah. And I had just gotten out of graduate school, and I started librarian school, I started to get my master's in library science, because I was starting to think like, you know, I need a plan B. And my husband was like, you know, when I said, I would support you through graduate school. That wasn't like, forever of graduate school. So, like, can you tell me what the plan is here? And, and I was like, you know, what gave me three months. Give me just give me three months, I have this one card left to play. And I talked to my agent. And you know, she's like, I can't sell this. I'm sorry. I love it. I can't sell it. And I was like, Well, you know, I've been thinking writing a memoir, this really interesting thing happened to me, I was the Mistress of the principle and I when I was a teenager, and she was like, what? Job was on the table, you know, like, how have you not told me this before? And I was like, I didn't want to write about it. That's why and, you know, and she was like, Well, do you genuinely feel like you're ready to write about it now? Like, consider all the consequences? Consider, you know, what it means to become memoirist. Consider you're going to be the heroine girl for the rest of her life. When she did you get to a certain point where you're like, okay, not so bad. Not so bad harem girl but I that was actually a quote from one of the other women who was who was in printer, who I still keep in touch with and yeah, you know, she said, like, I mean, thank God, I just something crazy. That's something like that. Not many people could say that. They've had an exciting experience like that. And it's such an exciting life. There is definitely an element of, of edge pushing to my life. You know, I'm an adrenaline junkie. I'm super curious. I always want to see the things that people aren't looking at, you know, I want I want to see the man behind the curtain. Ilana, like, you know, just like I just have the urge to have that kind of bite out of life and it doesn't was winding up in the best places, you know. But it has given me some very interesting stories the next memoir that I've read that you wrote was everything you ever wanted. Can you share with the viewers the sorry, not the viewers, the listeners, what that books about? Everything You Ever Wanted is about the process of adopting my older son. He's 14 Now, his name is tariku. We call them T. And he was adopted from Ethiopia. And before that, we had an extensive history with infertility and that and miscarriages. A lot of miscarriages. We were just sort of reflecting on it the other day. Now that's so far in the past, and like, there was a minute, my period was late. And I was just like, oh, wow, like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, gosh, yeah, I do not have enough notice for this right now. And we were just laughing and you know, of course, you know, we would have just accepted it as a blessing it was but yeah, and you know, whether it was miscarriage, just like period or whatever, like it hadn't happened in years. So we were reflecting on how painful that journey was. And, you know, now we have teenage boys, and it's not painful to me anymore, but I can remember. Yeah, yeah, it felt like and also like, your concerns get so different. Yeah, yeah. You know, try like listening with a glass trying to figure out who's a girlfriend? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Any wants to go to Annapolis? He must be like a navy combat pilot. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, and like, he's a whole person. But, you know, I wrote this book every day, I sat down and people criticize, I'm sure as you know, you know, people, women who talk about parenting, right about parenting, or podcasts about parenting mate material about parenting, like, we're exploiting our children. And I'm like, you know, parenting is as valid and experience you know, motherhood is as valid and experience as climbing Mount Everest, or anything else, or bagging groceries, or, you know, might be kowski worked at the post office. So what I was going through was early motherhood. And, you know, and adoption, which was, you know, really exciting, an interesting process, and I was dying to write about that. And, and our beautiful like, we consider our family that we met during that trip who really changed our life. We were there were nine families all together. And we really went through something together and not to like give any spoilers but for instance, they did our paperwork wrong. So we went through the whole week there and Addis transitioning him out of the orphanage you know how painful and difficult that was and of course I have 1000 funny stories about like, you know, like he's not pooping die people other people in the house that were already parents so they were Yeah, lets us but um you know, I mean, we all still keep in touch. Yeah, that's from and when our they had written your, we were like, supposed to adopt a child up to four years old. Like that. You You know, except they wrote four months old. Yeah. This the paperwork. So we're standing there like at the embassy, I am like, I have like the baby, and ergo, we're like ready to get on a plane the next day. There's nowhere to sit. It's just like, there's nowhere to go. Everyone else got their stuff. And they just kind of like walked away from us. And we were like I mean, I was running around, like, it was, you know, like, like, there was like, an alarm that nuclear missiles were coming. Like, I was like, shaking people. They're like, where did that man go? That man who was right there? Where did that man go? Anyway, so the whole group had a chance to go home, you know, we would have had just stayed there. And they come back for us, obviously, we're going to stay there for a long time. And they all stayed with us. Yeah, could pay for. I mean, it was like, it was most unlikely group of friends. And we all still, you know, love each other kids still know each other's incredible process. So, you know, I wanted to write about that those friendships. And then, you know, realizing that T was, you know, had special needs. And there's been diagnosed and re diagnosed column what? calm a lot of things. You know, diagnoses aren't magic. They can just maybe help you communicate with people. Right? About what might help. You know, I mean, basically, everything. We're like, Alright, so for $5,000, you just told us exactly what we already know. Thank you so much. I'm just, you know, the screening, screening and just learning for me to settle into this, you know, acceptance, which we all do as mothers, but I'm like it, I am a very imaginative and a kind way to myself, but, you know, also sort of a controlling person, I would like to, I would like to, like, set the diorama stage and, you know, bring my baby home and have I done all the reading all the, you know, I had to like mill to do the organic baby food and shit. I was canning, I don't know what happened. I really doubt. But, you know, what, he didn't give a shit about organically milled anything. And anything, or, you know, and I was like, we're gonna make homemade bread. Um, and, you know, that wasn't what you wanted or needed. It was, you know, that was my idea. Yeah. Do you want a given what her need? Do you think that some of that is sort of brought on by what, like society expects us mothers to be and the standard that they expect us to hold ourselves to? Yeah, I mean, really, I mean, not all of it, because I'm a little hyperactive myself. So, you know, it's like, you know, Scott will say, like, you know, I'll, I'm writing an article about Tango. So I, all of a sudden, like, all do is Tango for two solid months, like, I'm out every night till two in the morning, smelling like Argentine gangsters when I come home, you know? And, and then article came out and like, I haven't dance. And so, you know, it's like, I picked up on every, every parenting trend, every one of them, you know. And in Los Angeles, it's like, I mean, I imagine like in most major cities, you find you're sort of, you know, you have to find your sort of niche. If you want community to support us. So, you know, we had friends that were into Waldorf, we had friends that were into something called dry. I don't know if you know what that is. It's basically like, put your babies in an octagon and just like, let them work it out. Let the curiosity out. Okay. It's a new one for me. I went to this Oh, I mean, and the baby yoga and ever, and all these kids are like, you now and my kid just gets in there and just wants that toy. And Bob said, Can the head and takes it. And you're supposed to sit there and watch, right? That's like the whole idea of a thing. Like you don't interfere with their their growth or their interaction during the group. And at some point, I was just looking at, I was like, Do you guys want me to get my kid because he's gonna hurt your kids. Like, this is not a principle that works for everyone. You know, but everyone thinks the thing that not everyone, there plenty of people have had multiple experiences, you know, the thing that they find that whatever methodology of parenting or schooling, works for them is the only way and it's hard for me to explain to them, like, my kid would have been kicked out of a Waldorf school and a week, you know, and, like, the French school. Like, wouldn't just already knew that we're going to kick them out. But we are going to kick them out. Yeah, you know. So it was about that journey for me. And, you know, as all my books are, and people find it hard to be written about not t he loves that book. Yeah. But he, you know, he knows, he knows what happened, you know, and he knows sort of my version of it. And he has his version of it. And he's really proud of the book. And so my No, and that was my goal. When I wrote it. I was like, This is a gift to my son. Yeah, you know, I'm talking about all this stuff, warts and all. But this is a gift to my son, ultimately, that, you know, the first, like, almost three years of his life are really pretty. You know, like, the major points are pretty well documented in that book. And I would hope that you know, that that that'll be special to him someday. Jovi's book coming, I'm like, No, I'm so done. Do you might get an essay, like second child syndrome Yeah. You just mentioned JB, how old? Is he idea? Yeah. So he, he came to you in a slightly different way was through. Right. So we adopted tea from Ethiopia when he was 11 months old. We thought, you know, Ethiopia would be a great choice again, because there's so much you know, it's a rich culturally, and he's really into it. And, you know, there were no more adoptions happening in Ethiopia at the time. I was just going over there and doing kind of grassroots work in communities and, and, and orphanages and stuff. So, I mean, that was best I could do like to be close to his culture, but we'd have to Jovie out of the foster care system here. DCFS. And we had really, we knew that the likelihood of black boys being adopted after the age of two, I mean, the likelihood of Blackboard is being adopted at all. But after the age of two, like it's almost nothing. Percentages are so low. And we had been through so much with T. And he was really kind of out the other side of it by then. I mean, he's still like struggling attention and stuff. But you know, he wasn't. I mean, now, like I said, you you would never guess. Yeah, yep. No, it was just like, I'm like, here's the perfect. Here's the perfect example. She the minute I open Christmas ornaments for the first time. And he looked at them, he just picked one. Just a ball looks like a ball rather than the wall. Oh, yeah. goes in like tiny shards, a really thin glass all over the living room. Yeah. Joe V, we adopted to DCFS because, like, we felt really moved by that. And also, we thought like, if not us, then who? I mean, really, we've been through so much. We have these resources. You know, like, we have resources for another child. And we have resources for, you know, therapy with like, no, the best therapists we have done all this training. And, um, and it was still so scary. Yeah. You really, really scary, like Skarner those, you know, we both have, we're both prayerful people. We don't often pray together. There have been only like a handful of times in our life. And we come from different traditions. So like, pray differently. But like after the first time, we met Jovi, and we realized he couldn't really talk. You know, like, half his mouth was all rotted out. I changed his diaper stone diapers. I mean, he was wearing a size two, us three and a half. Like, there was no hand soap in the house. He was getting the shit beat out of him by older kids. And it was really scary. You know, and we pulled the car over and just like, held hands and just prayed for guidance and and, you know, and sad sat there for a minute together. And he turned and looked to me and he said, you know, someone's gotta believe in someone's on time. Live Let's believe in this kid. It's making that's yeah. Oh, yeah. Such an asshole. Sometimes she really nails it like the times that he nails it, he nails it. One of them someone's gonna believe in someone sometime. And you know, and the first months with Jovi for us were like, we would just hold him while he screamed and scream and like, sweat was covering his body. Like he was so slick. Like, we were like, human hold on to him. And you know, who's screaming cry, he would lie under the bed. Like, I would just go and kind of lie next to the bed. Like, I'm just here. You know, we're gonna talk. Like you didn't even have any words. You didn't know a cow said Moo. Yeah, and 123 or ABC, you know? So not only is he in this totally unfamiliar environment doesn't understand why. Um, he only now barely understands why. Yeah, wrap his head around what happened? You know, the events life that led us here. And he's only just starting to ask. But yeah, it was like, I mean, he was always so funny. Yeah. So funny. And so adorable. I mean, all these are survival skills, you know, the same way like a big shining bright star. Um, and you know, in, in traumatic situations for children, they'll often get really big and now there'll be the one that gets the attention. Or the one that gets more food maybe or the one that you know. Yeah, yeah, so Jovi. I'm thinking it really started to turn around for us. Like three years ago, you know, we took him to, he got an autism diagnosis, we took him to a really specialized preschool that was almost like one on one. Yeah. And there were like, only five kids in the class. And you know, it was specifically for kids with autism. For the most part, you know, or symptoms presenting that way. And we had to attend with him for like, the first six months. I know. I know. Like, you are fucking with me right now. Like, I can't even drop this kid off at autism preschool. Like, what do you do here? Please, God, someone helped me. But it was amazing. It totally changed things. He did, you know, he matriculated in kinder, and we had a really supportive school, really supportive Public Charter School, who love the kids and aren't scared. They, they're not scared of a diagnosis. They're, they do IEPs, which are individualized education programs, if your kid needs, you know, because every kid is supposed to get the education they need. And so they do their own IPs. They have great people who work with Jovi and he plays a violin and he dances and he knows how to take breaks. And I mean, he is he's brilliant. He's working at and above grade level. Yeah, like you told me the other day like I don't want to be in this baby math class anymore. failing math class. School is not necessarily separated by grade all the time. Like they'll have like a b and c mat and and like they might have kids from different grades in like who are just at that level of math right. So I you know, I called the school I was like me, can we have a meeting because Joby feels like he's in the baby math class? And they're like, Joby, you are the youngest person in your class. You're not in the baby math class, and you're not ready for the next one. But what a what a miracle. Oh, yeah. It's, it's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah, I love soccer. He loves our animals. Yeah. And the trauma stuff, it's all there. No, and for both of them, it comes out. At different times, there are different triggers, like the job aids, a lot of medical stuff, hospitals, things like that. Like we had to take them to the hospital, he had a really high fever and hell get bronchial stuff. It changed the hospital recently, and that check blood and he for two days was like, a one year old. You know, if you progress you know, and so different things would trigger it. And it'll come popping up but I mean, I don't think about it every minute of every day anymore. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. So it's I mean, you you've been through so much. And you know, I think it's like it's a credit to yourself and to Scott that, you know, you've got so much love to give your children and you know, like you said you've done certain training like you've learned how to assist them when they need it and it's just it's a joy like you're experiencing now. You know, the other side of it. It's wonderful Jovi when his soccer game, even though I had to pay I have six. You know, I'm just like, you're supposed to like it just being an all star team is just parent torture. Like I made all stars. Yay. Yeah, we have to do I have to like drive an hour 630 On a Sunday. But um, how old are your kids? So Alex, he's 14 and Digby seven. So if we ever get, but I can relate to the likes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, degrees just started playing tennis and it's the first time we've had any either child play a Saturday morning sport. So we're like, geez, we did want to get out of it for this. Now. Now I do. Yeah. Got like, I pulled the curtains at six this morning. You know what Soccer League? is what I think about you cycling Yeah. Nik, I know you've you said before we started recording, you've been talking a lot about your serial killers and things. But I sort of without talking specifically too much about that. But I want to talk about how it's affected you as a mother. It's pretty full on. It has been, it has been really hard. And I can't say I feel like I have an answer for you. That worked. Yeah, no, I was totally successful. Because everyone in my family was affected by me working on that story. You know, and it happened like that, like at the very end of it. When everyone was like, like, this is like enough of this poison in our lives, even though the work I was doing was so amazing and wonderful and gratifying in terms of the victims. Like, I was talking on speakerphone to a serial killer every single day. And then COVID hit, and everyone's in the house all the time. Yeah. And so like, it's not that big of a house. I can know and it echoes and stuff and like, and they know who they know what I do. And they know who I'm talking to it. Like, I mean team more than Jovi, you know, but T asks and I answer and I say you know, this is like, disturbing. disturbs me. And I love that you're curious because like Alaska, how they solve the case or something. Like I love that you're curious. I love talking about this stuff. But like also do you want to talk about how it makes you feel? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mama dog bite out makes me feel that, you know, he's like, he's like junior detective. So like, he'll get into the, you know, is a really good linear critical thinker. So like, he'll get into the, like, the stories leads and stuff with me, but I'm really, you know, it, it affected the most, because I wasn't around the piece that involves a lot of traveling. And it was just also present involved like me working 12 to 14 hours a day. So I wasn't around. And I was like an on hyper vigilance. Getting these calls from a serial killer every day. Yeah. Um, and you know, which was both for audio content for the documentary and stuff, but it was mostly, you know, to have a record of the kind of details I was getting from him to give to law enforcement. Because like I work very closely with law enforcement during the scene. Um, little case, because like I had his year, you know? Or he had my year end in a case. Yeah. Um, so I wasn't around a lot. I was when I look back, I can see it more than I saw then that like, my anger was coming out. Yeah. You know, because it's like they can deal with sadness. And just like if if you're crying, they don't mommy cries like that. It's like a joke. Mommy cries, right. Like, like, if there's ever a scene in a movie that's sad. Like, like, I mean, don't even talk to me about Mallanna. Okay. Ana has like four huge crime moments like to and you get over him fast, but Mallanna. So they'll be like, are you crying and crying? But I think I was. I was angry. No. And that was coming out in a way that I am from New York, I'm sarcastic. i If you have dinner with my family, you are going to have to, like raise your decibel level to get heard. Um, you know, and like, we razz each other all the time. And it just, it's an East Coast thing. It's just it's just how my family is. Oh, do I know my biggest parenting tip? Yeah. You want to know how to get your kids to not swear? Swear all the time? Really? I mean it. Yeah. And brown who's also whose parenting counselor says the same thing. She has a really filthy mouth. You know, like, Fuck was every other word. My house. So you know, I'm like, sorry, Mommy's not gonna go changing and this is parents don't talk like that do they don't? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Yeah, that's the thing is that like you? You talked about that anger. And I guess that's thing you're processing all your emotions that you're going through, and you're speaking to this man and finding out all these things and, and dealing with the families of, of people that he's harmed. And then you're trying to process that volume of it. Overwhelming. I mean, there were 93 confessions. Like it's hard enough to deal with one. That's just you can't fathom, like sort through this. I mean, I had 40 notebooks, it was glitzy making. And I think that, you know, what I didn't have was that tiny bit of extra space. Like, that was there for a really long time. That could always like make a beautiful dinner, you know, and just like reconnect, or sit and watch movie with Jovi or play cards or something. And like, you know, I wound up just like, shoveling soup into my mouth in front of the computer for you know, I mean, years. So we're just sort of trying to get a routine back here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I do want to sort of shine a light on the work that you've done. It didn't commend you for that. And thank you for that. Because it's such important work and obviously the families of the women would be incredibly grateful for the work that you've done. I mean, I I know that you know, I know them I mean, not, you know, there were a few victims into which I did a really deep dive, and then a few victims that I helped solve the cases. And when I saw it from top to bottom, I figured out it was in a different jurisdiction. Yeah. And, and with that, I was able to find some articles that look like they matched, and that I went to the place. And it was exactly what Sam described. And you know, and I was, and that was Alice. And I'm really close with Alice's family. They came to town, her sister came to town with her two nieces. You know, they, they took me out to lunch. And, you know, like, they said that until they realized, like, until I called them and told them, you know, and I do it very, very slowly, like, the Navier sisters come up in some of my research. You know, and would you like to know anything about it? And then I'll, you know, I'll give him a chance to say no, I don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's not like you just bled all. Even with Debbie with Alice's sister. You know, she asked for a couple of days. And, and as a journalist, you're like, you know, you want to like you just have this instinct and this training to like, never walk away you walk away and give someone a couple days, then they're gonna decide not to talk to you. Yeah, that's right. Then if you let anyone think about it, they're gonna do it. She actually called me back and was like, okay, like I'm ready to talk about this I talked about with my kids talked about it with my husband. Like I'd like to hear everything you have I'm a member of the military and I'm have a very strong backbone and you know Tamera thing and and she's just remarkable and then Denise brothers, I went to Odessa, Texas just like drove there on my own and you know, and her family like welcomed me into their kitchen and showed me their pictures and love letters and you know Audrey Nelson's daughter and I do think that my kids understand that I mean, regardless of you know Sam little not being the last project of my life you know, we're gonna move on I will stay in this field continuing to find missing persons and you know just get it out there as much as I can and restore names to women who have been lost Yeah, good on you system etc. Yeah, I'm with you know, they're gonna they're gonna have to get behind. On that is it do you find that it's important that your children see you as more than a library air quotes is just mom because we're never just mom but that you're also contributing so much with your work that you're doing and your writing and your investigation. I imagine that their feelings about it are going to change over time. You know, Jovi will say things like you're always working mad like made me feel horrible. I don't know what they'll think and I don't think It's I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me. I was never gonna give up my career. You know? And, like, T asked me a few days ago, because I was like, Oh, over there baby pictures. I don't know why there was some out. Yeah. And there's, but we're both the cutest thing in the world. And, and, you know, of course, like all kids always want to hear about how cute they were when they're babies. And when the funny things they said, and they love their own mythologies. And he said, Well, you know, did you like it better? Or we got a new puppy. And he said, did you like better? Having a baby or having a teenager? And I said, How many teenager? Yeah, you know, and he was like, what? Like, how would you say like, I guess I was supposed to say, you know, I love him all like all those years. But I didn't. Like, I liked them. I mean, it's not like I liked them more. Now. I just liked my life more now. If they consider a restaurant, or I like our life as a family more now we went to a friend of mines been named spa the other day, and they were able to sit through the whole ceremony and I almost you could have knocked me over with a feather. Yeah. And and they're both like, into their things. And they're super interesting. And like, I don't have to, you know, be the party clown all day. My mother never understood, like, this parenting generation at all. She was like, What are you doing? What are you talking about? Because I was like, No, I gotta go this group and that group in this group in that group. She's like, can you just give them a choo choo? And like, put them in a play pen? What? Go home at Virginia slam and have a bottle of red wine which is just like your own nuts. You don't? Then but then again, you know, I did go and walk the route that I used to walk to school. Last time I was home and I was like, trying to get me killed. Seriously, that is a lonely path through a dark wood. Oh, no joke. It's got to be something in between, you know, but yeah, that battle, you know, now now that they're into their own things. I mean, of course, you know, I love babies and love baby smell. I love other people's babies. I love my grandbabies. Hopefully one day. But that's nice. I tell them the truth. And it was like, Oh, you're so horrible. I could do say that. Like, personnel and I really like you. Yeah. And see, that's the thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest with your children. Like, you know, we don't have to sugarcoat everything and make, you know, pleat. People please another night just can be honest with them and life's great now, you know, like, you'd be happy about that. I think that, you know, at the same time, I like to try and be conscious of, you know, I mean, maybe like the totally honest me is, is not to me, my kids need Yeah, like Vanita mitigated me, like so does everybody know I'm on to me, like full force. But, you know, they definitely bring like a consciousness to how I talk, you know, and, like, I know, I know that when I do it right. And don't like, you know, shames Graeme, all that stuff. When I do it right, and like, you know, have a conversation. I mean, there have been times like it actually worked recently. Yeah. Like, you're gonna have to learn to put your clothes away. Like, I'm not like I will, they will sit here in a pile until you do like you want to go to the Navy. By the way, get up and do some push up. Yeah. Oh, close away. So yeah, that sounds very similar to my son, he's wants to be in the army but never makes his bed fixed. Like, hang on a sec, that's not gonna cut it. You know, I, I think that he's been starting to be able to hear it. Like thinking about his future a little bit. That's been the biggest difference this year. He's 14, you know? And I've been like, Listen, I need you to hear me because you're like college, this in college, that when I'm in college, and I was like, colleges doesn't happen magically. Um, and we can't pay for a private college for two children for four years. Like, who can't who can't write. So I was like, we're gonna have to think creatively. You know, I don't want you in debt for the rest of your life, either. You know, so let's start to really think about this, you know, what scores do you need to get into what schools and and then you know, and all he wants airplanes, airplanes, air. And just like one day, I was like, What about the Air Force Academy? And he was just like, Huh. Like I was doing for ROTC program, which is like, where they start doing, like some military training when they're still in high school. Like, Yeah, boy scouts, but soldiers. Yeah, right. Yeah. And he was like, Huh. So then he got on to that. And then, you know, I started finding out about the Navy pilots, Annapolis, and then, you know, we worked up going to and we called my friend who was a pilot. And, and he said, you know, is there such a thing? Is there really such a thing as Top Gun? And my friend was like, There absolutely is. It's not called that. It's called, like, the flight defense superveloce Law, some stupid thing, like somebody in Hollywood camp, a Top Gun. But it isn't an absolutely real thing. And he said, but you're not going to get into it. It's like, the top 1% of fliers in the country. And, you know, it's like getting into Harvard, or like, you know, becoming president or something. Like, it's not quite that hard, but, you know, is, but it's like getting into Harvard. It's like, yeah, and, you know, the, the likelihood is, you won't get it. And you said, okay, you know, and they talked more and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, we were just talking I was like, so how does that make you feel? You know, when he says it's impossible? And he was like, um, I don't know. I was like, because when someone tells me something's impossible, it kind of makes me feel like proving them wrong. And I just watched his eyes light up. And oh, no, this one my friends. It's like pitching for the Dodgers. Right? Or like joining the NBA. Ya know, and I was like, you know, what, you you're 14. We know you're not pitching for the Dodgers. Sorry. You're not You're very good pitcher. But you're not pitching for the Dodgers. You know, and you're not in MBA either. That's not going to happen. I was like, but we don't know. What if you're, if you are going to be in the NBA of fliers. Pilots like you very well could be like the the amount of time he puts in on the flight simulator. And I was like, so. I mean, we could have a lot of different plans. But if that's what you want to do, let's go for it. You know, Oh yeah, that's awesome. It's so fun, you know, and then to have them be like, Yeah, I'm gonna be the Dodger pitchers of combat pilot. Good on him. So, it's really thrilling. It's really fun. I try not to get like, too excited though or like, show it about anything they're into. You know, because moms are not cool by their nature. Don't embarrass them. You tell me what you think, like this generation of kids are really different from me, like when my parents were 35 they were old people. Like they were total grownups. You know, who like stockbroker housewife, dinner parties, grownups and kids were like, you know, listen through from the upstairs. Um, and, like, and, and there was this combativeness between, you know, like, you make yourself like Adley and punk rock clothes are listening to punk rock music, or my parents really a hidden problem with that, like, why? Yeah, it seems like such such a tiny thing to sacrifice a relationship with your child for, um, but they were just raised by different people. But like, our friends, our group of friends and our kids, like, all hang out together. Yeah, it's definitely different. Like, I remember the same thing like Mum and Dad would have, they had, we had a passage door that sort of divided the living area and the bedrooms. And that whenever we went to bed that would always be shut, and we'd hear the, they'd be out there with their friends. And we could We'd sneak to the door and listen, you know, it's just, I feel like, like, us, our, our parenting styles have changed so much that we include our children in so much more now. And I think that also allows us to, I don't know, I don't wanna say not grow up, because we, you know, we physically grow up, but we were still ourselves. We don't have to take on this role of the big serious parents that you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, and that's also not me. You know, like, I mean, you know, entail I was doing some really serious journalism and traveling, like, the Deep South and stuff, and I took my hair back now, I had blue hair till just a few years ago. And man T would like be on the road and get our hair done together and matching blue hair. And it was just like, you know, how fun and also like, we don't listen to all that much different music than they do. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we're into superhero movies. I love Star Wars. So was his number one. Yeah. And that's driven by me. We are Marvel Universe here. Yeah. Yeah. All about Marvel. Yeah. We are like we already have tickets for Black Panther opening. Yeah, it's like, we're not that. I mean, now you know, T likes to just talk to his friends on the phone. Actually, one of his friends is going to show up any minute. But um, nice talk to his friends, you know, and just on his iPads I mean, he could do it all day long. So it's not like he wants to hang around us all the time. But like, we had a couple of nerf wars lately. Yeah. And you're my husband is veteran and a lot of our friends are also veterans. So they are extraordinarily serious about like, organizing the teams and you had to like each have a little, you know, space and you gotta go get the flag and get back and if you get hit twice, whatever. Yeah, um, you know, but like, they wanted the parents to play. Yeah. Last the last birthday party. We went to parents played kids in kickball. Yep. And great. Yeah. It's like, you know, like, parents versus kids. Like, I don't think. I mean, when I was 14, are you kidding? Like, yeah, it'd be just no way. Hey, we hated them. And we they wouldn't play kickball. Are you kidding? We're like busy smoking at the mall. Yeah, it's good. It's great. I'm so pleased. Like, I feel like I've got a really good relationship with my 14 year old like he, you know, we're very close. And it's really good. And I hope it stays that way. As he gets out of me, it goes up and down. You know, my 14 year old and I've always, we're both stubborn. And we've come to blows for sure. I'm not actual blows. But yeah. You know, we like to say lock horns. Yeah. And so, you know, it's been kind of up and down. But right now, I'm just enjoying them a lot. Yeah. So it's kind of them and they're trying, you know, we've been just sort of talking about how, you know, we all need help. And they're old enough now. To like, participate, you know, their babies, like, they don't need to be taken care of every single second of every day. And, you know, and that we're all participating in this house in this life. And we have to, like, act politely toward each other. And you know, not have to be asked seven times to put on your shoes or to go to bed or to like, it's just it's time for that all to stop now. Yeah. I can relate to that so much. Yeah. And put in the laundry away. And, you know, it's just yeah. And like we took Jovi to soccer game this morning and left to home alone. Yep. And I was just like, one. And Scott was like, He's 14. He's fine. He'll wake up, make his breakfast. He knows where we're going. You know, back in two hours. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, I guess I was babysitting when I was 12. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, so I think they're like, the kids are kind of younger now too. Yeah. I mean, little group and this little school. Very thankful for. Yeah. I told you that I I left home and went to college when I was 16. I did. And, and he's like, that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh, man, I was like, You know what, you are exactly correct. That was not a very good. I know, he said, Where was it? And I was like, it's it was in New York. It was in in Greenwich Village in New York. And he was like, you were living in New York when you were 16 That doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh. And I was like, Yeah, you know why? Because then I told him I sneak out of the house and take the bus into New York. I was like, you don't have to do that you like you're like I'm gonna go to a concert dad gets on the phone with his manager. You know, obviously if you guys have a box you know, I You really don't have any reason to get out of the house. Yeah. on that, but I can't let you go without mentioning. You've mentioned Scott a few times and his connection to music, that he's the bass player for Weezer, and full disclosure, I'm a massive what he's a fan. I've got my little ways of paying for the fair club. And I've seen him sing them twice. They've come to Australia a couple of times, but my, I've got to share with you my funniest Weezer story was when they first came out, I think it was 96 or 97. And I just started going out with, like, my husband, obviously, we weren't married then. And we were playing in Adelaide, which is five hours drive from here. And I said to him, I really want to go see this band. And my favorite band, like this sweater song was out. It was blue Album Era. And he said, Ah, you know, if they're big band, they'll they'll come back again soon, you know, we'll go next time, you know. Anyway, 14 years later, I waited 14 years to see them play in Melbourne, and I'm lying. Now I just got to the same thing that they hadn't been to us ever wanted to go so badly. And it was actually, like, one of the times that he was like, you know, I'd like to stay here a little longer. Like, there's some beach. That's supposed to be like, really cool. Is this Sydney? Or like Bondi Beach in Sydney? Maybe? Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. And he's like, I just want to go like, stay there for apps like do, please. You know, but it was like, too long of a flight for tea at that time. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. So I was gonna say I saw on your socials that he went on the last tour. With the band. Yeah. It's so great to juvie. Yeah, and it's perfect. Kind of for now. You know, like, I can go and fly to the shows in like, major cities that we want to see. Or, like, I have my own career. I've taken two kids on tour. Bus Tour, like three times, like, months of living on a bus. As just like, I'm gonna, like put out a shingle and start telling fortunes or something like, I I can't do this anymore. You've done the hard work. Laughing like, you've been less schlepping now because they're old. But the schlepping of the baby crap. Yeah, yes. It's like That's the worst part. Yeah, that's why I hate the beach. Yeah, there's so much stuff. There is so much stuff. Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, then like, you know, you've to date the car seat. The car Student Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much to consider last you are new mothers out there. That's something I don't miss. I'll tell you. Neither, but then, you know, I look at the baby pictures. And I go. I'm a monster. About these angels. Yeah. Look, I'll thank you so much for coming on. Julian. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. And you too, and we'd be happy to be in touch again. Oh, thank you. And just before you go, do you want to share is it you've got to your books coming out my book, Behold, the monster is coming out another thing next July. Um, and there is also a documentary called confronting a serial killer that's streaming on most major networks right now. That's about me. Like it's limited, you know, five one hour episodes directed by Joe burrow injure and it's just about my relationship with Sam and and solving some of the cases. And super excited for the book. I'll be around talking a lot about crime. And strangely enough, you know, even moms have interests beyond macaroni collages Yes. We were true crime fans. Um, we're just like this part is relaxing. Are you getting turned on the DOM or documentary? You know, my website, Julian lauren.com. You can find everything there. I'm on Instagram actually and Lauren I'm on Tik Tok. Don't even ask. They talked me into it. It's kind of fun. It's really fun. Yeah, I haven't gotten you don't you have to do this mom. Like you have to do this. Or you're just not anything. Get with the time. Not going anywhere. Mom's ticked off. Anyway, good. Just Julie and lauren.com. Everything's there and preorder the books. Great. Yay. Thank you so much, and all the best and yeah, I'd love to chat again one day and yeah, keep doing what you're doing and and say hi to Scott for me. Yes, and go see Weezer. It's great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Dr Sophie Brock Motherhood studies sociologist S2 Ep59 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Dr Sophie Brock, a Motherhood Studies Sociologist (a Social Scientist) and Mother of 1 living in Sydney, Australia. She provides analysis of Motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences of Mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. I first found out about Sophie's amazing work while recording a podcast with Louise Agnew in S2Ep41 and I am so glad I did, what she is doing really resonates with me and it is so valuable. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what Motherhood means in our society, and how individual Mothers are supported and understood. This has been her of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in Sociology from The University of Sydney, her own experiences as a Mother, and her own ongoing learning from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for a Motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where Mothers have agency, support, and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of Motherhood, including ‘the perfect mother myth’, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom-motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, (re)claim, explore, and connect to a version of Motherhood that sees women who mother as valued, powerful and whole. Sophie’s offerings include self-study courses for Mothers and practitioners, her podcast The Good Enough Mother , and her Motherhood Studies Practitioner Certification program. In todays chat with Sophie we discuss the movie The Lost Daughter , which may be triggering. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Connect with Sophie website / facebook / instagram email - info@drsophiebrock.com Podcast - instagram / website Maternal Scholars Australia Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Sophie Brock to the podcast this week. Sophie is a motherhood studies sociologist, also known as a social scientist, and a mother herself living in Sydney Australia. Sophie provides analysis of motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences and mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what motherhood means in our society, and how individual mothers are supported and understood. I first found out about Sophie and her incredible work through a previous guest of this podcast. Louise Agnew, a photographer from Matt Gambia, South Australia, and I'm so glad I did. Motherhood studies has been Sophie's field of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in sociology from the University of Sydney, her own experiences as a mother and her own ongoing learnings from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where mothers have agency support and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of motherhood, including the perfect mother myth, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, claim or reclaim, explore and connect to a version of motherhood that sees women who mother as valued powerful and how, and personally I could not agree more. Sophie's offerings include self study courses for mothers and practitioners, her podcast, the good enough mother, and her motherhood studies practitioner certification program. In today's chat with Sophie, we discussed the movie The lost daughter, which may be triggering to some. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you or from resources online. I have compiled a list of international resources on my website landing page. That is Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear in today's episode is used with permission and it's from my new age at ambient music trio called LM Joe. It's made up of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I'm so delighted to have Sophia on an episode of my podcast. It really is an honor. And I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed chatting with Sophie. Thanks so much for coming on today. Sophie, it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me, Alison. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Yeah, so I've been following you on Instagram for a little while I came across you. I can't remember how but I'm really glad I did. Because what you're doing is really of interest to me, and I think will be of interest to a lot of people that listen to the podcast as well. Can you explain to us what you do? And the sort of thing that you're really interested in with your area of work? Yeah, sure. So I have a pretty unusual job title, which is a motherhood studies sociologist. And what that actually means is I'm a social scientist, and I focus on the experiences of mothers and motherhood in our society and culture and how that shaped and what that means. And so sometimes I describe it, if you imagine, like a scientist with their white lab coat walking into a lab and looking at a specimen under their microscope to examine and ask questions and post hypotheses and think about well, what can I learn and what can I find out from studying and observing this phenomenon? I do the same thing but in our social world. So we step out and we look at how mothers experience their daily lives and what the cultural messages are around what it means to be a mother in Our society and culture. And so that's what I'm really interested in. How did you get into this area? What was sort of the trigger that that drew you into it? Yeah, I did my Bachelor of Arts degree and I majored in sociology. And through the course of one of my essay topics, I stumbled across motherhood studies as a term. And I was really surprised that we hadn't learned about motherhood studies formally in the course of my degree. And so I kind of went down the rabbit hole of lots of reading. And I discovered a whole network of incredible maternal scholars at the time, mostly based in North America. But there was an organization here in Australia, two that was focused on maternal researchers scholarship, and that led me down the path of them pursuing a PhD focused on that area of study. And it's kind of just sort of blossomed since then I've just been really passionate about the topic. And this was long before I became a mum myself. So yeah, it's been an interest for mine ever since. Yeah, it's interesting you say about not many people, I guess, in Australia, I don't know about now. But I've noticed that there it is a really strong sort of topic in North America. And there's people in England doing the same sort of thing. But I haven't come across many other people sort of diving in, in Australia. So it's a nice to have that perspective over here. Because I think, you know, culturally, you know, we are so different to other countries, and different sort of setups that our government has, like with health care, and childcare and things like that. So it is a unique sort of, I guess, every country is unique. So yeah, it's nice to have that that perspective. There's actually a fair a fair few people now in Australia, which is wonderful. And there's an organization maternal scholars, Australia, and but the, I suppose the challenges too, it's like, how, where are you placed in order to be able to do this work? And so are you working at a university? Do you have funding, like, all of those sorts of questions come into play with how much focus were sort of able to facilitate on this topic? But yeah, absolutely. There's a really strong pool throughout, throughout, you know, the UK and North America and Australia for this interest. So can you explain to us, and I'll probably stuff this up. So take this way, you need to the sort of the way you describe the difference between motherhood, mothering, like the actual act of mothering within you describe it, like the fishbowl? Can you? Can you talk about that? Explain? Yeah, no, you didn't start that up at all? Naughty that I use. And it's really about making some distinctions in language to make it easier for us to describe accurately what we're experiencing and what we're talking about in motherhood. So there are three distinctions to help us do that. And one is, the word mother can be referring to our individual selves, so the individual mother, or a social role, so the role of the mother, and then there's mothering, which is an act, it's a practice, it's like the doing work of mothering and their caregiving, the actual acting out of what it means to engage in mothering work. And then there's the motherhood. And so the Motherhood is the social and cultural context, that way, the mother's mother with him. So I used the fish tank analogy to describe that to think about around glass bowl, which is like the fish tank, and that represents our society and culture. And this can be applied to lots of different areas, not just motherhood, but we're talking about the hood here. And so that represents all of the stuff that we actually find really hard to see. Because it's easy for someone to point at something and say, Oh, here's a rulebook and look at all of those rules contained within it. That's the law, but the social customs and the social rules and the social norms that we all live within, we know them because we've been socialized into them, but they're invisible. It happens through a process of socialization. So this analogy is really there to help us make a little bit more tangible, what we're kind of talking about here. But we're living within a society and culture that has certain ideas around what it means to be a mother. And that impacts not only how we see ourselves, but that impacts how we carry out our mother in how we actually care for our children. And it also impacts how the world sees us. So that's the kind of analogy that I use to help open up that conversation. Yeah, that's, that's really good. I think that that's a really relatable description, like and I think it's Yeah, because people see things in so many different ways and learning different ways. So, you know, being able to visualize that, you know, vessel that we're within, as this as the social constructs. When I checked Imams on this podcast, a lot of them bring up the topic. Well, I bring up the topic and it's a big one for people about the identity shift that happens when you become a mother. And what actually happens to yourself the sense that you might lose your own identity, you'd become somebody's mum. And you'd lose that. Everything you've ever had, in the eyes of society is diminished, because you you exist to keep this little person alive. That I noticed on your your stories and your your Instagram, that it seems that something that's important that you talk about is maintaining that identity as the person that you are within the role of mothering. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure, yeah, identity is such a complex topic, and we all relate to it, probably understandably, so in different ways. So it is a really common theme to come out when we're talking about who we are as mothers, for mothers to say they feel they've lost themselves as mothers or they've lost themselves in motherhood, or that they may have a really strong sense of their self and identity. But to everyone else, now they've shifted and changed. And as you say, you're, you know, you're Jessica's mum, you're you don't have your even your name anymore. And I think that often coincides with a shift in Korea, because so often, there's such a cemented sense of identity with what we do. So what work we carry out, if there are shifts that go on there in terms of shifting the the amount that we are engaged in paid work, or shifting career, that can also really accentuate a sense of loss of self, because we don't have that to identify with as strongly anymore. Although it can also be the other way, for a lot of women who become mothers, as well, some describe, finding themselves in motherhood or, I know focuses around creativity and saying, actually, this experience that I've had, through becoming a mother can also be a portal and a catalyst for incredible self transformation and coming to know myself in a new way. And, and and what I try and talk about is highlighting the nuance and saying, We don't actually have to have a simple story here. And it can be a bit of both. And it'll change according to who you're speaking with. But I suppose what can be helpful for us is making the distinction between who the world sees us as who the world expects us to be, and who it is that we are. And so I find that useful to come back to to say that we're more than our labels, and our roles, and that it's really important for us, as women, as individuals, as mothers to be able to find a sense of grounding and anchoring into who we are, that feels true for us and feels connected for us rather than who were perceived as being by everyone else. Yeah, that's a big one isn't it is this. And I think the social media makes it even more challenging, because there's so many ways you can experience other people's views. Now, it's not like, you could just hear the neighbors saying something or, you know, a friend made a comment. It's like, it's all around us all the time. So it can become really challenging to sort of find yourself amongst everybody else's opinions of who you should be. Is that something that you you sort of noticed as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't find yourself when you're swimming through everyone else's opinions of who you should be, um, anything that you try on won't be your own, it'll be someone else's, and social media is makes that particularly challenging, because it's really easy to curate an identity on there. And so talking about topics like this, you know, and we're having this dialogue about identity, and we have the capacity to add in the complexity and the nuance. But that's really hard to do on an Instagram post or in a 32nd Instagram reel. And you know, you have the filters and you have your your light ring, and you set yourself up and you know, you can really portray a certain version of who you are. And that's not to say that that's all constructed and false. And, you know, everyone on there, it's just performing, not at all, I mean, we're all performing to some degree wherever we are, whether it's on social media or not. It's just a shade. It's a shade, and it's a part of who we are. But I think where we can become lost is when, as individuals, we identify with that shade or that version or that facade, and we take that on as meaning. That is everything of who I am. And why that can be risky and challenging for us is that when we anchor him to a version of ourselves that exists outside of us, so when we curate an identity as I'm the mother or whatever, right I'm, I'm the the worried over protective mom. That's just how I'll always be all out, you know, and we really identify with that label. We can get kind of at first we can find meaning from it, but then we can get stuck and trapped within it and it can place these bigger expectations on ourselves and that goes for any identity that we try on. And we need we need some flexibility to to change our minds. And I don't think that were kind of allowed that enough in motherhood were kind of put into these boxes quite early on when we first become mothers and then it can feel really hard to find any movement within there. Hmm. Yeah, it's it's such a big thing is in it. It's like the the way that society wants us to be. Have you noticed throughout your period of time, I didn't ask you how long you've been doing this for But have you noticed shifts generally in the, in the cultural norms of what society is expecting of mothers? Yeah, I have. And I suppose my observations wouldn't be as clear as others who have worked in the field for decades and decades, I've been doing this for about 10 years. But it also impacts your perspective as to whether you're in the cultural soup or not. So whether you are a mother or not. So my perceptions of the cultural construction of motherhood also change according to my experience of motherhood as well. But in a broader sense, in terms of the literature and research around motherhood, there's definitely been a shift more recently in the context of the pandemic, and the kind of off shifts, that has been picked up by by mothers and mothers as another version of frontline workers who are kind of holding down the fort and taking on and engaging in more emotional labor as well as more physical labor in order to care for families and other members of their community. And so absolutely, I think there have been shifts that have been precipitated most strongly through the pandemic. But on top of that, as well, though, there certainly has been an intensification of the expectations on Mother's Day. And I think that's a mix of kind of social media pressures and the online world and a mix of social and cultural factors as well when it comes to even economics and costs of living and different kinds of economic shifts that can happen that then impact how we live our everyday lives. And what that can look like culture to culture as well. Yeah, it makes a difference where we're located and where you're listening to this podcast from will probably change how motherhood looks for you in your society. Yeah, absolutely yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. Something that really fascinates me is this idea that not only mothers work, the unpaid work that is so essential to make society work. But also the, with the people I chat to that are artists and creators, that the work that we do, maybe we aren't renumerated for in a monetary sense, it makes society has this thing that will our society in us in Australia capitalist Western society that unless you're paid for what you do, there is this diminished worth placed on it? And I can see you nodding, so can you share me share with me your your opinions on that? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I think anybody who is engaged in any form of unpaid labor that they find valuable, meaningful, purposeful, and important, we'll be able to intuitively have a sense of what we're talking about here, right? And you're asked, well, what is it that you do and oh, that or, Oh, you're just a mother? Or oh, that's in some sort of patronizing way? Oh, that's a nice little hobby you have or what are your plans for afterwards? Or what are you how are you going to support your family? Or what contribution Are you making? Like there are veiled ways that we're asked questions that remind us how little value our culture places on what we do? And so I think the first and foremost, for us individually, regardless of whether you're an artist or creator, a mother who is engaged primarily in work, raising her child, rather than paid work outside of the home, is valuing what we do for ourselves. Because even though I would like to say that we need a cultural revolution, so that everyone else sees the value in what we do, so that we can feel better about ourselves, that's probably not going to happen, at least until we individually value what we do so almost forever on this I mean, like, remove the word just from your vocabulary. So when you describe yourself, it's not just anything, it's this is what I do and feeling into the discomfort sometimes that comes with first stating that but knowing truth, every time you do, opens up a pathway for others to be able to do the same. But as you mentioned, we live within a capitalist society where value literally equals dollar. And, and so it can make it really difficult for mothers, when so much of mothering is not only devalued socially, but you're not paid for it. So it's not seen as being economically contributing, although we know that it is, you know, your if you want to look at it, in economic terms, you're raising human capital, you're raising taxpayers. So I mean, you know, we can talk about it from all sorts of different angles. But in order to start to create shifts, I think that we need to start valuing what we do and, and sit with the discomfort that others won't, you know, we can ultimately make them either. So where, yeah, where it's countercultural, some of this of what we're doing in holding on to the meaning of what we do. Finally, I want to talk to you about the movie, the lost daughter, which I absolutely loved. I loved it so much. And I related to it so much. And I don't want that to say I'm bad that I really loved it because it's a heavy, it's a heavy movie with a lot of heavy, heavy topics. And you had a wonderful podcast that you released recently with Julianne, where you talked about in sort of unpacked it. can briefly, can you sort of outline a little bit of that, for people that haven't watched it? This will make no sense whatsoever? So I apologize. But if you have watched it, hopefully this, you'll enjoy this next little bit of the chat. Yeah, yeah. So I had a conversation with Julian bridge lamp from Parenthood in mind about the lost daughter film, it's out on Netflix. And the film is one that explores lots of different aspects of motherhood in a really, as you say, kind of confronting and deep and for some quite dark way. And some people love the film, others hated it. Others found that resonant but difficult to watch, and so had to watch it in different sections. But the film, as Julian and I discussed, it explores maternal transgressions. So a sense of when you kind of break those rules of what it means to be a good mother. But in a way that is really kind of complex and fraught, we look at the kind of bad mother archetype. So ultimately, in the film, not as a spoiler alert for those who may not have watched it, but the main character leader, she leaves her children, when they are young. And she we sort of get flashbacks throughout the film of her now in her later life with adult children, and then flashing back to when she had her children when she was younger. And there's all sorts of different storylines in there around her career, her aspirations with her work, I think she has a sort of an affair, and you look at the complex relationship with her partner and the father of her children. And we've kind of have an example of the trope of the selfish woman, you know, the selfish mother, the mother, who is self interested, and who focuses on on her needs and wants and desires and who fails in many ways to live up to this idealized image of who the perfect mother is. And why I think it can be confronting for a lot of mothers to watch is because you can recognize parts of yourself within her character. And it may not be that you are her completely and that you have left your children or decided to, or thought about it, although I would argue probably most mothers have had that thought at one stage or another. But it's that actually, she she crosses those boundaries. But she you can see she also holds love and tenderness for her children. And there are times that which, you know, we've all been there when we have young children where we're, there's a scene where she's trying to I think she's trying to study or focus on something and her daughter is just at her and athearn at her and asking her questions, then I think her daughter kind of hits her. And she's sort of shocked. And it's like, don't hit me and she's trying to contain her anger. And then it kind of unravels. And we identify with that sense of being pushed to our limits as mothers and the power that we have, and that we hold the responsibility that we hold for our children's care and love and nurturance and their safety, but the ways in which we're so often left to do that on our own and we have we then have such harsh critique and self judgment when we can't live up to the idealized image of who the perfect mother is because none of us can and importantly in the film, she's mothering alone. Ultimately, she's not surrounded by community she's she doesn't have people who come in and share the load with her mentally and physically In adequate way, and so it's it's complex, but I think we can recognize parts of ourselves within a character or notice within us. What are the things that we're most repulsed by? and exploring that? And being curious about what that means about what we've internalized about motherhood? Hmm. Yeah, just a massive movie. I'm so glad that, that it's out there. And for people to be challenged by that to actually, to see somebody, like you say, crossed the line. Like, we've all probably thought about it, but we don't actually do it. And to see someone do it is massive. And it's, it's a fantastic. Like, it's like a breakthrough sort of movie. You know, like, it's probably the first time that we've seen this stuff on film. Yeah, it's fascinating. And that was thing I was really, really interested, I was thinking about how later would have survived how our experience would have been different, like you say, with the support of others, living in a different time, or different culture where she had support or, you know, mother's home to say, we're allowed to, but, you know, could do other things apart from being somebody's mother, you know, I just, I felt really felt sorry for her, I felt really like, yeah, film presented in a complex way, it's not a simple narrative. And what I really hope to try and do in my work, and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother, and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self, there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like, actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self with our mothering and how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are and of our own authenticity, in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them so. So kind of breaking is open it and which is what the film has helped us doing in conversation is to see the complexity of the mothering role, I think that actually can offer a gifts to our children and can pave the way for deeper connection with our children true, particularly in adulthood. And it's interesting that we didn't really see later and her adult children, but we had some interactions with them on the phone that we missed. But yeah, it certainly opens a lot of different threads for discussion, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. It's wonderful, so good. Thank you so much for being a part of this. And I urge anybody who's interested in this topic at all to follow Sophie, on your socials, I'll put all the links to that in the show notes. And keep up the good work. Because honestly, you're what you're doing is amazing. And it's it's so important. And thank you, thank you, thank you for having me and for the work that you're doing as well and, and opening them holding these types of conversations to really give us space to talk about a name our experiences and for mothers to reflect on what they do and who they are and to have openings for that rather than closed little containers that you know, ultimately gives us more freedom to be able to do so. So thank you for having me on. I've really enjoyed this. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom doo doo doo ah doo doo doo doo