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Singer, songwriter and mum of 2 Alison Newman chats to artists, musicians, writers and other creatives about what it is like being a mother - and being an artist. Juggling the day to day, retaining your identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", the pros, the cons and everything in between Be inspired by artistic + creative mothers who are passionate about continuting their work, no matter what. Latest Article READ HERE About Me ... and the changes Hi there I'm Alison, its so great to have you here! I'm a mum of 2 boys and a singer/ songwriter, so I know first hand how challenging it can be to balance your role as a mother with the intense need to create. I started this podcast to reach out to other creative mums, in a time of my own crisis, to see how they were handling things, but since then it has turned into so much more. The aim now being - to encourage mothers to see the value in their creating and to try to support them to know that they are not alone - challenge cultural norms and break down a few patriarchal stereotypes along the way. Recently, in May 2023 I my work hours changed, and I knew I wouldn't have the time or the capacity to continue the podcast each week as I have since July 2021, Instead of giving up my labour of love, I looked at how else I could do things, and I started a written interview series in June 2023. From time to time you will still see podcasts pop up, Id o have time to do a couple every month, but you'll enjoy reading about the amazing creative mothers we have in our societies, all around the world. Never miss an episode - SUBSCRIBE to my newsletter Email First Name Last Name Join Our Mailing List Thanks for subscribing! Would you like to be a guest? Email Your name Tell me a bit about yourself and what you create, ages of children, etc ... Send Thanks for submitting! I will be in touch soon x Get a taste of Alison's new album WOLF which she is currently working on. Branding + logo design by “This feels like the podcast version of Rachel Power’s book The Divided Heart and I think it’s what we need.” Katherine Collette - author and podcaster "We have International Women's Day where everyone posts on their social media how good it is to support women. But Alison is example of someone actually actively doing that. And I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work she's doing." Fleur Harris - illustrator and designer "Alison has a charming and disarming interview style. This makes for a podcast that proves to be a great companion, throughout its entended library of interviews." Steve Davis - podcaster, critic, comedian and educa tor.

Mary Sotiropolous and Jessie Ann Elliot Australian authors S4 Ep95 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Welcome to Season 4! To begin we have a special episode to mark Mother's Day in Australia, and many other countries including most of Europe, Canada, Brazil, China and Japan. I am thrilled to welcome two creative mothers, Mary Sotiropoulos + Jessie Ann Elliot, Mary grew up in Sydney + moved to Goulburn almost 5 years ago, and she's a mum of a 3 year old daughter. Mary went from being a Full Time teacher to a Writer, Community Builder and Unschooling Guide. Jessie has been a Hunter Valley local (NSW) for most of her life, except for a tiny quarter life crisis year in Scotland at the age of 23. She's a mum of 2 children, a boy and a girl. Jessie went from a Full time Community Planner in Local Government to a Writer, Creator, Photographer, Holistic Counsellor, Meditation Therapist and Women’s Circle Facilitator. and they have collaborated to write the book "The Mum Who Found Her Sparkle." Jessie and Mary started out as online friends, meeting in a membership facilitated by Motherhood Studies Sociologist Dr Sophie Brock. (a previous guest of the podcast) In this group they learnt not only about Matrescence, but how Motherhood is socially constructed and how far removed the act of housework is from actual Mothering. The journeys to becoming Mothers saw both women completely re-evaluate how they viewed the world, There is no mistaking that our culture glorifies being able to ‘do it all’ and that this significantly impacts on the wellbeing and mental health of Mothers and therefore families. The joy is often lost, the things that a women enjoyed pre-motherhood often put on the back burner, as she places others above her. In June 2022 Jessie had the idea to write a children's book aimed at mothers, that would explore the topic of this 'lost sparkle' that a mother can experience when she puts her needs last. The pair went on to create it in the early hours of the morning, late at night, in pockets of time between getting snacks for children or changing nappies. The story follows Te and Oscar as they support their Mum Amber, to find her Sparkle. It is a story of a Mum being just as worthy of her shiny-ness as her kids are, and everyone knowing about it. Within the story there are layers of meaning and they have intentionally designed many opportunities to spark purposeful conversation throughout its' pages. It is their hope that this book inspires not just kids, but parents to prioritise finding that lost Sparkle. The book will be available in the coming months. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety and birth trauma** Jessie and Mary - instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to welcome you back to Season Four after a short little break. And as always, on Mother's Day, I like to do a little bit of a special episode usually with more than one guest. So today I'm very excited to welcome bliss and Jessie and Elliot. Mary grew up in Sydney and moved to Goldman almost five years ago. She's a mom of a three year old daughter. She went from being a full time teacher to a writer, community builder, and unschooling guide, Jessie has been a Hunter Valley local for most of her life, except for a tiny quarterlife crisis here in Scotland at the age of 23. She's a mom of two children, a boy and a girl. Jessie went from a full time community planner in local government, to a writer, creator, photographer, holistic counselor, meditation therapist and women's circle facilitator. And they have collaborated to write the book the mum who found her sparkle. Jessie and Mary started out as online friends meeting in a membership facilitated by motherhood study sociologist Dr. Sophy Brock, who's also a previous guest of this podcast. In this group, they learned not only about muttrah essence, that how motherhood is socially constructed, and how far removed the act of housework is from actual mothering. The journeys to becoming mothers saw both women completely reevaluate how they viewed the world. There is no mistaking that our culture glorifies being able to do it all, and that this significantly impacts on the well being and mental health of mothers and therefore families, the joy is often lost, and things that a woman enjoyed pre motherhood are often put on the backburner as she places others needs above her own. In June 2022, Jessie had the idea to write a children's book aimed at mothers that would explore the topic of this last sparkle that a mother can experience when she puts her needs last. The pay went on to create it in the early hours of the morning, late at night, in pockets of time between getting snacks for children, or changing nappies. This story follows tea and Oscar as they support their mum Amber to find her sparkle. It is a story of a mum being just as worthy of his shininess as her kids and everyone knowing about it. Within the story, there are layers of meaning, and they have intentionally designed many opportunities to spark purpose or conversation throughout its pages. Their hope is that this book inspires not just kids, but parents to prioritize finding that lost sparkle, and the book will be available in the coming months. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety and birth trauma. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. It was a lot of fun to record. Joining me on this very special Mother's Day episode, I have not one but two creative mothers. I'd love to welcome Jessie and Mary to the podcast. Thank you for coming on ladies, I assume thank you so much for having us. Oh, it's my pleasure. I love it. I love it. I've only ever had one other episode where I had multiple guests at once. So it is lovely to treat for me to more than one face in the in the Zoom chat. It's lovely. Yeah. So tell me briefly before we launch into things whereabouts are you both at the moment? You're Victoria, am I right or not? You tell me I've done know where I'm going. That's all right close. So I am in Hunter Valley, so just outside of Maitland, which is sort of near Newcastle. So yeah, we're in New South Wales, being a hunter local for most of my life, except for a quarter life crisis when I moved to Scotland for a year. But other than that, I've been a hunter local. So yeah, yeah, just leave around that. So you both like you know each other in real life apart from on Instagram. Well, I was a Sydney girl grew up as a city girl, but I live about an hour and a half or two hours out of the main center of Sydney, and about half an hour from Canberra, in regional New South Wales. So we met in an online membership with Dr. Sophie Brock back in 2020. Was it? Yeah, yeah. I was 2020. And then once Jessie had her second in 2021, we sort of connected even more at that point. Because I was fascinated by how she was navigating her second postpartum fourth trimester. Yeah, and apologies. We did say this. My beautiful daughter is very much wanting to make an appearance. Wonderful. Oh, oh, good. So yes, when you said Dr. Sophy broke, I got excited because I've had Sophie on the podcast and she's amazing. I love what she's teaching. She's for those who don't know, Sophie's motherhood studies sociologist based in Australia in Sydney. I think she is. And she runs lots of things online education and even just if you just get on her Instagram, it's incredibly inspiring. And yes, so that's awesome. But yes, go on. Sorry. Lately tried. Oh, no, it's it's very any chance to pump her up? We're totally in support. It was, it was a beautiful meet you so yeah, we met in her online membership, liberate it. And as Mary said, we just sort of started chatting more and more. And after a period of time, you know, doing that Mary went on a road trip and actually came and had dinner at our house. And when we met in person, it was just it was very easy. You know, it was it wasn't it was just kind of like of course we've always known each other in person. It was just yeah, really sort of easy. I think it was a year ago if last year that I've met you in person Yeah. And then all the rest is history breadcrumbs. You lovely ladies have got a book in the works, which is pretty awesome. And it's called the mum who found her sparkle. So who would like to tell us? Maybe maybe start off by sharing how you came up with it or what compelled you to create the children's book? Yeah. Well, I guess going right back to when I became a mum, I planted load for the birth, I knew roughly how to change a nappy. I knew possibly I might need to swaddle the newborn. But I really hadn't prepared myself for that, that transition to mother for matrices properly. And I experienced postnatal depression and anxiety for probably the first you know, eight, nine months sort of severely after my son was born. And in that time, I really found that I I very much dismissed my my feelings and my emotions. And I was just doing a hell of a lot of disassociation. disassociating. And it wasn't until I started to, again sort of focus on my creativity. So my Excel The expression that I started to claw my way out of that. So that had been sort of brewing since 2020, I guess how important it is for us to focus on what brings us joy. And so I guess coming from that, slowly, slowly, slowly building that more into my life, and then leading in to when I fell pregnant with my daughter, my second pregnancy, and approaching the end of it, and I thought, okay, I know much more now about accepting all the help that I can. I know that I need to engage the support of a postpartum doula. I know I need to just let the house go in terms of the task. But I thought, What am I doing to plan for my creativity in this time in my life, because I knew that I needed that to stay really mentally well, and to to really assist in that transition. So I came up with a project to create a project. So I wish I had called it 90 Emotional days. And so each day in during my fourth trimester, I was going to take, you know, a moment or several moments to check in with myself and how I was feeling and, and really sort of it was to help myself as well name what I was feeling because as you know, growing up a good girl like we all do, we, we kind of don't really learn how to really properly honor what we're feeling, or even know what that might even be some of the time. And that creative element as well was either taking, you know, a photo or making a video and just sharing that each and every day, whenever, however, it sort of felt good. And it sort of evolved in to making funny reels doing breastfeeding inspired digital art, taking breastfeeding photos in front of wall art out in the community. And then right at the end of that my daughter, I think she was four months old. And this idea came to me. And originally, it was, I messaged Mary straightaway, originally it was the mum who lost her expression. So that was where the idea originally come from. And then it just blossomed and blossomed. So and evolved and changed as both of us were on the journey of this book together. And I think for both of us we've had we had struggles did we marry just sort of talking about at the start of both of our postpartum journeys and what that transition was actually like? Yeah, I think I'm a little different to Jessie, and that I'm not as organized as her again. She was, I think I was watching on when she was doing the 90 Emotional days and thinking, how is she doing this with a newborn. I mean, it just was so foreign to me, because I My experience was, I mean, I would have definitely been diagnosed with postnatal anxiety. I never actually went to the dopamine hit COVID locked down two weeks after I had my daughter. And it was smack bang, the time she woke up and she was an extremely vocal, unsettled little Baba. And that's kind of just She's three now. And that's, that's just kind of been our thing for three years, which is fine. But I think I just started to see that I needed to pull from different little things that brought me joy, essentially. And I kind of started to grab onto these little things that would bring me joy, because I knew that my mental health was better for it. So Jessie was like one of those people. So when she jumped into my DMs, I'm thinking she's onto something here. And I think you're originally approached me because I did say to her, You do not need me for this. Jessie, you can run with this idea. I'm happy to help assist you through the process. Like, because because I'm a primary school teacher. I've read lots of picture books to so many different kids. I love them. I think they're a beautiful way to access information and create like a depth of meaning. I think they're really underutilized resource. So yeah, and I did a few read alouds just on my Instagram, I was reading with my daughter, like some picture books that I liked. And then so she's sort of jumped into my DMs. Yes, this is great. Loving this idea. I can absolutely see where you're going with it. Or you don't actually I don't think you need me. We've yet she convinced me that it was a joint project project. And I'm incredibly grateful for that because I mean, even from last year, the message has definitely evolved. Just sort of organically as we've been going through the process. That's right, like not forced, it's just sort of it's kind of gained legs and momentum. Because I think I mean, this is what this podcast is all about two, moms are super creative. And I mean, when I would think of what creativity was, or an artist was somebody that was creative, I think, someone that could draw or paint really well. And I'm not those things I could not draw, I need a YouTube video with a step by step instructions on how to draw anything, I'm a stick person didn't progress past you, too. It was also getting my head around the fact that creativity and particularly motherboard can look like a whole bunch of different things, there's not one little narrow box that it fits into. So obviously, the picture will make sense for us both. Yeah, I love that. My my backgrounds in early childhood education, so I can relate to, I love the idea of, of, you know, it's so simple, you just think it's a it's a simple book. And but it can express and convey so much and so many, you know, you can choose what layer of meaning you take from it, you know, depending on who's reading it, and I love that it's a children's book, but someone has to read it to the children, you know, so that person is going to get so much out of it. Was that really deliberate that you wanted to? You wanted to make it like that? That was right from the start? That's how you're planning it? Absolutely. It's sort of yes, it's a picture book. And I guess yes, you could read it and think, oh, you know, he's a bit of glitter, and we're going on adventure with this letter. But for those that want to use it as a tool to have those conversations around, you know, mommy's mom's mental health and even around challenging with the caregiving role, you know, we were really strong on having dad be really involved in care work in the book, and also having extended family around. So it was a way to have that conversation around the importance of you know, mental health as in, you know, reacting to that as urgency urgently as we may have, if someone broke a leg, you know, just just, you know, really elevating that conversation, but also challenging really early some of those stereotypes that we have around around care work and the presence of a village so yes, you could read it at any layer. But it was definitely so intentional for us to sort of just yeah, really just wave some really deep meaning throughout and that is where Mary's experience you know, expertise came in to be able to you had with her experience of reading so many books just yeah, be able to make sure that we were adding so many layers and we were talking the other day, Mary and you were saying you know I even picture this hidden you know, the Self Help for moms like section of like bookshop, because we weren't for for the parent to be sitting there reading it to be getting something from it and you know, in some ways feeling you know, really important and validated that they are important. She, I'm going to refer back to a quote that I found on your Instagram, Jesse, if you don't mind, I'll quote you. Everyone does it. Whatever I say these people freak out. So don't it's not it's not bad. It's really, really good. You said I did not like who I was when I became a mum. I dismissed and invalidated my own needs. I judged myself on expectations placed on me by a society that glorifies supermoms and the myth of the perfect mother. And when I read that, I just went boom like that. I honestly, I, I related to that very much. And I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there that relate to that. And that's that thing. It's our expectations. And like you said, the, like the cultural norms that are set up, that we're not supported. We're not and it frustrates me so much I have this this conversation with just about everyone I have on here. Like we're, we're this, we basically keep life going, if it wasn't for us, if we just said not sorry, end of end of everything, we're not going to, we're not going to keep doing this, there would be no more human race. So why, like we're revered in so many senses. But then when it comes to just with just a man, you know, it's like, you lose your identity, you lose your sense of self, you're like, you know, and that is brought on by the way society sees us, and makes me really, really cross. So yes, I love that quote. Not because you went through it, though, like, I'm not saying I loved it, because we can see our experience in it. And that's something you know, Mary, and I feel so strongly about in that. Yes, the level of intensity right now can be intense, but it's very important for us to challenge this so that our children experience it less, and then their children less, we like that, I won't swear I won't like you can swear, you know, I'm just like, there's no fucking way my daughter will be going through this, my son will not be going, you know, it's just you. You can see what needs to change. And yes, it's frustrating. And you can also go, Well, what can I do in my everyday life to challenge that and change it? So it does get easier and continues to get easier? Yeah, I was gonna bounce off of that. And I think that there's a huge puzzle piece of this book, The mom who found her sparkle for us. We are not. And I mean, I had this dropping as I was driving today. And I thought, I need to say this when I'm on the podcasts later, we are not downplaying the importance of maternal mental health. Like we know, we know the statistics. And I think that's the biggest thing too, Jesse and I are well aware of the statistics, not only because the numbers are there, but because we see it, we talk to mothers, we know we hear the stories, and you would as well doing a podcast like this, it's it, there are themes across the board, what we what we're hoping to achieve with the mom who found her Spark, although is yes, there are sometimes bigger issues at play that need, you know, a lot more support. But if we can sort of start to access that sparkle every day, and just do tiny little things, even in the micro moments that we have, which because that's what we get as moms, right, we're not, we don't have an hour, we don't have an hour to get it all together. Sometimes it's that 35 second little window of time or that five minute little window of time. And our thinking behind Sparkle is it's that way, it's at those small micro moments that you can essentially take back for yourself. And spark that joy and that curiosity that we had before we became moms. I mean, we're human beings out there. We're not just moms like as in we want to be just a mom to as in I love being a mother, but I'm a mom. And yeah, I'm a mom. And and it can be all the things like those things don't just disappear, because suddenly I've got a baby that I'm breastfeeding 24/7 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Where we find our spark was been there from Well, I would argue from when we were babies ourselves. And when we're actually allowed to tap into that feeling of incredible. The way I think of Spark is it's like that feeling of incredible peace you feel when you've discarded all the shows, in your zone, whether it be with your kids there or without like, it doesn't matter. It can be at any point, but you know, that feeling where it's like your soul and heart sort of aligned beautifully. Take that big breath and be like, okay, yes, this is like right here. Like I can almost touch this. And it's trying to just encourage trying to tap into that as much as possible, even in those small pockets of time, so that you get Yeah, and I think we changed the word to sparkle. We were sort of playing around with vocab and thinking about how to make this language accessible. I kid you can imagine Oh, my game was to spark a bit today. Yeah, mom's feeling a little off what could we do to help you get it back? And you know, it can be a conversation that happens in families and like we just see it is a just a really beautiful invitation to create discussion and spark discussion. And that's what this really is for us. Yeah. I think that's really important because I couldn't hark back to the time when I was a child, I had very little understanding or knowledge about my parents goings on. Like, I knew they were my parents. I knew they went to work I needed, they did things, but I didn't know. You know, I knew my dad like sport. And like, what was going on with them? You know, they were very hiding things. I mean, not saying it was they were like, nasty people hiding things. But you know, it was that was what you did in those days, you didn't share things with your kids. And you were sort of protecting them. In a way, I suppose. That's how they saw it. But these days, like, I feel like I share so much with my kids. And sometimes I can think, Oh, should I really be burdening my kids with all this? But then I think, no, it's real life, you know, at some point, they're going to, I don't know, have relationships where it's gonna be good for them to share how they're feeling. And I think that's really great. This opportunity to actually say the words and check in with people and be like, you know, I can see that you're not feeling like your normal self. As you said, use those words, you know, you lost your sparkle, and how can we get it back? I think that's a wonderful thing. And just on a sidenote, like, with my kids at work, I work in a akindi at the moment, and, you know, teaching kids to actually feel their emotions and name their emotions. Yeah. Like you're saying earlier, Jesse about, you know, sometimes you don't even know the name of what you're experiencing. And then to then say, recognizing it in others, and say, what some ways we can help them feel better or, or however, they're feeling, changing that. And I think that's really important that it's not something that's really been done forever, you know, what I mean? I totally agree. And, you know, my, when I grew up, I don't really ever remember, you know, having any kind of conversation around emotions and feelings. And I mean, I think in myself, like, a lot of people, I grew up with a very busy mom, very, very busy mom. And she would be got, she would work full time, my dad would work full time, but he would have I could see had access to a lot more recreation time than she did. She did everything. But yes, still worked full time she would with task to task to task. And that's what I saw growing up. So obviously, that's what I internalized. But even just two or three weeks ago, we were in the car together. And I said to her, Did you do anything for you when we were little? And she said, No, there wasn't any time. And I knew that. That was that's what I witnessed. But I was sort of just wanting to ask, from her perspective, what her sort of memory of it was, and yeah, she didn't. And this is also from a woman she still had her parents, like, you know, they took care of us helped with us and my dad's parents were around so she even had access to a much bigger village then then I do and she struggled. So it's you know, it is you know, that it's things have changed in that we want our kids to we want them to see us as whole humans within reason. But as humans Yeah, and we want to help them get to know themselves. I know when it comes to feelings and emotions, I have absolutely love helping my son because he's for now tune into himself and I and this is so I never thought this would even be a parenting when moment But about six months ago, or might have been a little bit longer. He actually said to me, Mommy, I'm feeling angry. And do you know how proud I was? That he could name that and express that to me? I just thought I just won today and you know, then we actually had the ability to do some things together that helped him you know, move that emotion but yeah, that's it's a really new new thing really, in the in the scheme of sort of generations, generational parenting and stuff like that. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was a meme or something the other day sort of along the lines of now I know why my mom just wanted to sit in a bedroom alone in the dark. And I just love to hate all I want and I think back to this whole self care that we're sold, like, get the massage and your nails done. I'm like, I don't want to sit in a hairdresser. That doesn't bring me joy. I like short, someone else. That's not where I'm finding my sparkle. Let me lie down below on preferably maybe a bit of music. Stuff that suits me just fine. Because that's how my nervous system feels calm. Yeah. Yeah, we're told even Mother's Day is coming up. And I'm thinking to myself to Hobby, be happy if you just take out my beautiful toddler and it takes all gets rid of all that energy and I just sit on the couch. And yeah, absolutely nothing. You know, I don't want a fancy lunch, I don't want to be taken out. And again, I think get the sparkle side of things. Some Mama's will find it, doing those things, which is beautiful. I say power to you by tapping into what actually like how can you access your own how what's gonna make you feel better? It's not anybody else's story. And that's, that's what we love. We get moms jumping in our DMS, like, this is how I found my sparkle today. And they'll send us a little story or a video or a picture. And I said to Jesse, we just, we just pulled this idea out of thin air. And no idea yet, but it was just this little idea. And we've seen it and now we have people having conversations with us about it because it's important last, yes. Brilliant. You know, it was something what you said Mary just made me giggle because on an episode of Grayson, Frankie, they were doing a flashback to racist races Mother's Day, you know, 30 years before or something and she was away at a hotel for the weekend. And they were like, you were away for Mother's Day? And she said, Yeah, well, it's Mother's Day, not Children's Day. Legally, but it's funny, because as you said, you know, what brings each person sparkle could be very different. But that also could change, you know, day to day, minute to minute as well. But something we love to doing didn't we marry? Oh my goodness, sparkle Tober was just the most fun we have ever had. In the month formally called October. Last year, we we renamed it to sparkle Tober. Because we just wanted to, you know, just to continue that conversation that we've started having with you know, our friends and community that we're all growing on Instagram. So we sort of just invited people to share images or videos of them. Just really just doing things that made them you know, brought them sparkle. And Mary did some fabulous dancing. It was wonderful. Dancer hearts, you can take the dancer out. Not choreographed. Okay, I'd like to point this out. Freelance dancer. Yeah, I don't want to be told what to do. I just need space space on that dance floor. And that's wonderful, because we had people sharing, you know, things they were doing with their kids or just by themselves. And it was just this it was so much fun. Just yeah, to have these conversations with friends and family and just to see them so ugly up about it. So yeah, we'll definitely do that again. It was just wonderful. In your DMS Oh, great. You're a VIP, you'll be the next sparkle. Tober for sure. Thank you. Well, I'll be sure to share it with my community and get them involved. And on that note on Mother's Day, I'll be going to the races with that score. Is it is Mother's Day, not a joke when when it was Mother's Day, I distinctly remember asking her once Well, when's Children's Day? Why don't we get a day and she said to me every day is Children's Day. Now I understand time like Ha I know you like but that was interesting what you said before Jesse because that my mother was very similar. She was always busy always doing and would do it herself. We didn't have quite you know, the village that like she might she moved from Melbourne left her family over there but we had neighbors we had my my dad's parents, but I just remember always doing something unless she was sitting down with a cup of tea. You know, but Yeah, same thing i i had come in before I how I asked her but it was a similar thing. It was like I knew dad went out and played footy and he played cricket and they were his his interests. But mum didn't have anything of her own. That was just what she Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and like, I don't I just think I couldn't survive like that. I could survive. because it's not that I, I very firmly want my children to know who I am. I want my grandchildren to know who I am. And not in a context of service like whilst I am incredibly nurturing and caring and you know, all that's a very high value for me, I yes feel very strongly that they, they also need to see me as, as the whole human that I am. And just being in their life is sort of just is one part. It's a very important part, but it's just one part of who I am. Yeah, I love that. I'm gonna take that quote, but you're gonna hear that because that is that it's in a nutshell that's literally it. Like, I feel the same that my boys like I'm I'm very visual with what I like I leave the house to go sing and perform. I know I'm in my studio doing things. And it's like, this is me like like you said, Mary you don't your your passions and the things that you love and your abilities and your gifts. They don't just disappear just because you have. So yeah, I think it's very important, yeah. The saddest thing for me was how long it actually took me to acknowledge them, because all I wanted to ever be was a mom. And I thought, okay, No, Mom. Life goals achieved great, too. And that's now my role. I am secondary to my daughter, she's the most important thing. And that's what I focus on. And obviously, that's just a recipe for disaster. Like it's not going to work. It's not sustainable. And especially I had a daughter, who was for two years of her life, she was awake, constantly, she would wake up, just I would think I had five minutes and not it just wasn't going to happen. Every creak of a floorboard, she would pee. And the more I was pouring into the mothering side, the worse I was feeling, it's just inevitable. I guess that that happens if you're taking no time for yourself. But when we talk about things about what makes a good man, that's what it was. for me. I sacrificed every need every one every everything for my kids. And now that I'm unraveling all this stuff, and pulling back all the layers, I realize how incredibly damaging that is. And that's not something I want to pass to my daughter, why would I want her to think her importance on a priority list is, you know, way down the bottom. That's not That's not a lesson I want to teach. So then it became a, it became a focus to say, Okay, well, no, I am taking that time, I am taking that 10 minutes, I am taking that half an hour and I'm not going to feel incredibly guilty about it every single time I do it, you know, I'm allowed to have a shower in peace. I'm out, but I was I felt so guilty just to jump in the shower, because I knew she would be crying. But I need to show up. I mean, a basic human need. And I'm myself of that. It's, it's just horrible. And I think that and just the conditioning around it all. My mom was the same as yours. You know, same thing. It was limited hobbies. I don't even really know what they were now. Now. She's retired and kind of a bit lost of like, what am I doing for myself? I'm sort of encouraging her now. In her 60s, like Mum, you know, I'm writing this book about like, it could really benefit. Because I do I love her and I want her to see that side. And I think she I think she does and she slowly undoing stories of the 60s, you know, I don't want to be my voice start living. But that is so that's it's a really good point too. It's like it's it's not just for moms who are mothering, actively mothering roles now, is for anyone who's been a mom, or still a mom, you know what I mean? It's like that generation, it doesn't matter how old you are. That's such a good point. It seems like they like you get might get to a certain point and they sort of release I know what my sister and I worry now, probably early 20s, late teens, early 20s. And it's just it, it was like all of a sudden, right? My time and you know, she was you know, hanging out with friends a lot more and going out and doing all of these things and but then, you know, reflecting on that, that obviously that That hurts my heart that she probably wanted to be doing those things, you know, the whole time and then for all of the reasons that we've talked about she she didn't and you know, like it's I don't watch it didn't want that for her. And I've said to her so many times, you deserved more than that. You deserve to be able to do what brought you joy. And I don't know. I don't really know how she feels about hearing that from you know, like, yeah, like, Oh, what do you know? Um, but yeah, you know, like, it's she. We all deserve. We all deserve it. Yeah, that is that is so true you're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Mary, do you mind if I ask? You talked about sort of unraveling that, or changing that story for yourself about just needing to be mum, and putting yourself further down the list when you talked about it changing. But was there a sort of a moment or something that triggered you to start to see that in yourself? Oh, you know what, I'm, I've been asked this a few times. And kind of when I reflect, I realized it wasn't one big moment in time. But it was that accumulation of Well, the fact that my nervous system was rattling constantly. And with every cry with every screen with every you know, it was just I felt incredibly triggered. And so I have spoken about this in podcast before, but I experienced like intense anger and rage. I'm sorry, Bubba, Come on, honey. And I didn't know where that rage was coming from. I mean, I've always been like a passionate sort of person. Fiery, I guess it's like the great bloody me you can't get like, we have a bit of warmth and passion when we do things. But I had a temper, I would say, but not that not the level of rage that sort of was coming out of me like it was explosive. Kind of like, what is going on. I'd never experienced it that way before. And then obviously the guilt and the shame pops in. Because you're like I, I'm feeling this way towards the situation of being a mom is the one thing I wanted. And I'm not even appreciating. It's that cycle like that in a talk that, you know, that little person just sitting there talking to me in the back of my mind is horrible, would say horrible things. But it was me doing it to myself, which is the saddest part for me now. So I don't think it was one big moment it was more just recognizing, like, where is this coming from? Why am I having these feelings? I need to pull in some support here, or I need to be looking at things differently. And then it's just a very slow. It's just a very slow one day one hour at a time process. You know, I see Sophie bra. Oh, she's starting a membership. This could be interesting. And that that really was a big catalyst listening to podcasts hear the word Mitra says, Oh, what is that word? I've not heard of this before? You know, and then yeah, it was just that it was just those small, incremental moments that sort of were building and building until I just kind of went no, I this is not my reality. Now I'm not accepting this as my motherhood experience, and I'm not doing it this way anymore. And then just chlorine, chlorine back and I say chlorine, because like, it is a fight you're fighting against, like you're fighting against not only yourself and that inner chatter, but like we talked about before you're fighting against a society that is actively pushing against you and feels incredibly hard. And I guess again, this is why the picture book is just a beautiful combination of this for me, because it is fun still, like, yes, our book is for mums. But the kids are going to enjoy it as well. It's playful. And I think Jessie and I really exude that, like we enjoy that. Like we have fun when I met her in person as like, I've known him my whole life. mucking around, talking laughing like it was it was easy and easy. And yeah, but it's that that like the mom who found this path couldn't have come in 2020 Like it wasn't ready to be here in 2020 we were we were doing our own thing. Like we were battling our own stuff. We were on that journey. We knew each other but not as well then, but we all kind of like unraveling our stuff to eventually kind of joined together in this book. But yeah, it was not something that could have come in earlier. So yeah, it's it's just you just don't get told this before you become a mom, like how much you have to fight against things that you feel sometimes very much like they're set up to just make you fail. You know? You just don't know this. And I mean, I don't know I always think about how we could have done things differently. But when it's your first kid, it's what you're around and what you hear. I wasn't around Dr. Sophie Brockman, I didn't even know she existed. I didn't know people like Jessie existed. I didn't know this podcast would have been a thing like you don't know any of this stuff until you're right in it and have conversations about this a lot. Like how could we, you know, prevention over cure, essentially, like getting earlier? And some people are adamant that no, you just have to be in it to understand, but for me, the teacher salaries, I know, we can be doing better for new moms, because then they're not actively seeking out information at the most vulnerable time in their life. They're not scraping together this web, this support network when they're just sleep deprived, and like a really low point in their life. Like we shouldn't have to be waiting for that. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know then what the answer is, I guess spark was our little way of doing that. Just like the past is your little way of doing it. It's all part of the bigger puzzle, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I tell myself like, because you feel like you want to get out there and shake the chains. Like just do something on change everything. That's that's not going to happen. So it's like little bits, little bits all joined together to make hopefully the big change. Let's try we can only make change at the table we're at that's like that. That's a nice. Yeah, well, I can't take one mark. Is it Abby Wambach? Lennon, Doyle's partner said she did a beautiful big post might have been six, eight months ago. And it was just essentially about making change at the table that you're at. So you have to remember that one that's really good with it was incredibly powerful article. And it's obviously it's stuck in my mind, because you do you want to just you want to shake the chains. But like, but that can feel so overwhelming. So how can I, you know, take a step back from that. And what can I do? What can I do to to make those changes make those incremental changes? Yeah, I think the journey all moms go on isn't that we kind of like get to that point of yes, we know, there needs to be that big structural change. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it, right? But then you go, but I am one person who is at this intense period of my life, like Jesse was talking about before. And I don't have the capacity to pull down everything and start from scratch, like, do that. But maybe if I choose to go out with my feet on the grass, instead of doing the dishes today, or taking a little bit back, you know, maybe when he gets home, I feel confident enough to say, Hey, I just need half an hour in the room. I'll be back out and ready to go. I just need that time to regroup after a whole day. Perfect. So you take it back a little bit, you know, it's like taking just taking the little pieces back. And that's what I said before it's clawing it back. Feels like that's what you have to do. And again, it I don't agree with this is how it is, but it's the reality of it. So just take those little pockets of time for yourself, you know, because you do matter, we talk we are human beings. I mean, I used to teach this to my kids. A human being You're a beautiful person, we respect each other in this room because we are all human beings. And that's why there's no other reason but that because we're human beings all living on this earth and we can respect each other and like I used to teach it and then I become a mom and I show myself zero respect 00 care. Like it No, it just doesn't work again. It's not a sustainable model. It's yeah absolutely. Interesting thing isn't that, like, I was not using it to my advantage prior to becoming a mom, I was just consuming the content. Oh, yeah. You know, and obviously, what do you see of moms these perfectly color coordinated photos, everything put together, no masks, you know, all of that. And then when I started using social media differently, you made adjusted, you know, I gotta say, you start building this web, and you realize, okay, if mothers can use it in this way, perfect, really like a great tool in the toolbox. But I think and that's what we talked about before before you become a mom Um, you're not you're not looking for these words, you're not looking for these things. Because what do we get told? Have the beautiful nursery get the beautiful cost? Decorate the room? Or what? You know, what beautiful prints do you have on the wall, my daughter never went into the car, I ended up getting my friend who had just had a third baby. And I said take it, I hope it gets used somewhere else. I'm glad I'm happy to pass that on. Because we didn't use it, it became just a piece of decoration in my room. And this is a very real reality for a lot of people not to say like some kids will go in the car. That's fine. Mine just never did. And, yeah, there's so many shoulds being thrown at me like what I should be doing, Oh, I must be a bad mom. Because my daughter cries a lot. My daughter is very vocal, I must be a bad mom, because she's not sleeping. Well, I must be a bad mom. And that's why she's doing these things. And it took me so long to flip that around and go, No, it's got nothing to do, mate. She is who she is. And I am just doing the best I can with the support that I have at the time with the information I have. I'm just doing my best. And yeah, I mean, we know this as well, your kids get sent to you for a very real reason. Like, I do believe this. And I really love that you spoke about having that big gap because my daughter is three. So obviously, you know, people are already having you next. And for me, um, sometimes I sometimes find it really hard to get my head around it because I'm going to be thrown back in that am I going to be able to cope? Like I know, I have a better support network. Now I know I've resourced myself better. But I know. I know what it can be like to it anymore. And I, you know, I consider all of these things. So I find that tricky. So I love that you talked about a gap because that is something I'm seriously thinking about? Like, am I supposed to have a bigger gap? Where do I sit with that? And very much just trying to get rid of the hole what you should be doing? Because there are no rules here. Like, yeah, there are rules that we have to follow can look different for every person. Yeah, and that was something that I like, between having my kids, obviously, seven years ago and past I was a lot older, and experienced a lot more life. But I did start working in childcare. And in that time, and that was, for me, the biggest thing that I learned that every baby is different. And it really doesn't matter what you do. Like, you know, parents would have instructions of you know, feed them to sleep with a bottle, put them in the awake with a dummy, wrap them, don't wrap them, put them on their side, put them on their belly, like the nurse, like cuddle them, make sure they're asleep before you put them all this sort of stuff. And I just opened my eyes to like there really, there's no right or wrong, because that's that was in my head at that point. Like I'm quite a black and white kind of person, like very, like, I don't know, a structure routine. I like predictability. And so having a baby was like the opposite of all that, you know. And I talked myself into that I was gonna have this baby that was gonna be on this schedule, and whatever. And if not, then yeah, now that I know, this child, I've known, you know, for 15 years, he was never going to be on the schedule, like that kid does not do it. So I had this book that I'd written in, when I was sort of thinking about having another one, like, all the things that I would do different and it was like, Don't be hard on yourself. Don't be hard on your baby, you know, like, sit and cuddle them for ages, like in the books that said, No, you can't cuddle them. After so many weeks, they get used to it, and then they will want you all the time. It was ridiculous. Isn't that God, like? And I read? I think back on those times. And I think my god like that. I don't know, if there's been long term damage done to our relationship because of it. You know, we'll never know the stuff that you think God being told not to hold your child in case they might want you. That's life. People want each other, you know, we want connection we want. We want people and yeah, so I had this massive, long list of things that I would do. And it wasn't necessarily all this practical stuff. It was how I would be kinder to myself. And the expectations that I wouldn't put on myself like breastfeeding. I had to breastfeed my first child. And I went through hell, because I had this idea in my head that you had to breastfeed your child exclusively. And society thing you know, and I remember times of just being in tears, because he wouldn't latch properly. And my husband's like, ah, do you think I should go get some formula? And I was like, No, don't you dare get formula I can do this, you know, and I was sending myself insane. And the best thing that ever happened to me was that when my baby second baby was born, he was really tiny really underweight and he was in one of those little hot box things. I don't know what the directories we know what great, that's fine. But you know, they gave him formula to keep him alive to my milk came in. And it was like it was out of my hands, which was wonderful. You know, it was just taken away from me that I had to put this pressure on myself. And I noticed actually Just see if you want to talk about it or not. I'm not sure because I haven't asked yet. But in that quote that I read, there was a next bit about doing it differently the second time. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about that? Yeah, I am. As I sort of said earlier, I, I, my mental health was atrocious after Finley was born. And I remember sort of sitting in my GPS office, and she was wonderful. She was so wonderful. I was sitting there with a coffee with America's coffee. And my mom was sitting next to me, holding Finley bought me in this beautiful GP was going through the questions, you know, checking in on my mental health. And before I could really say, match my mom, because we were leaving with her at the time, because we were renovating to sell. So my partner and I became parents under her roof. We brought family home from the hospital there, like he grew up the first two and a half years of his life there. And yeah, sort of before I could answer much, my mom, you know, really reassuringly that unknown Yeah, but just as fine. You know, there's, there's not a great deal of pressure on her. I'm doing x y Zed. So, obviously, at that point, I was just like, Yeah, I'm fine. But I wasn't fine. I, you know, I'd had a very traumatic birth. And I think because of that, I had this fierce love for this little boy, my little world changer. His name is Scottish. And it means fair warrior. And I think the way he entered the world definitely, definitely reinforced that that was the correct name for him. I had this fierce love for him is protecting the small protected Mama Bear. But I was really struggling to enjoy the day, today, of you know, the changing bombs and things like and I you know, I could follow a structure, but just sort of feeling, you know, fulfilled. It just wasn't sort of there for me at first. And I was very, very disconnected, very, very disconnected. And like I said, I was very, very mentally unwell. And it wasn't. You know, as I said earlier, it wasn't until I started to actually focus on my needs. Again, I remember that particular moment, I was about Finley, who was maybe eight months old. And I said to my mom, can I go to a cafe? And so she had him. And I went to this cafe. I sat down with my laptop, I called ahead of time, I was like, Can I book a table with a PowerPoint? Because I had my videos about 20 years old. So she has to I've got a new one now. The new new laptop. Yeah. But yeah, my way I could not use it without being plugged in. So I had to call him time. Can I please have a table anyway? So booked me in had my name is I was I sat there. And I just wrote, I wrote and wrote and wrote for about two hours. And when I got back in the car, just how just, you know, sparkly, I feel I was absolutely on top of the world that I got to sit and do something that I really enjoyed. And it was, I think I I reviewed a jay Shetty podcast, and it was just, you know, trying to reflect on how it was relevant for my life and, and then just wrote a few other bits and pieces. And it just was just absolutely phenomenal. But I think as well, I did. You know, I did want to sort of come across as someone who had it all together as well, you know, I did it I very much because my mental health isolated myself from thin friends and extended family, I remember, we really didn't get out of the house very much at all. So yeah, fast forward that few years when I'd really started to get to know more about who I was as a mom and what brought me joy. That was when you're leaving into Esther, I really decided I really knew I needed to make sure that I had that creative practice, integrated and that I had spoken to people around me about what that could look like, just to Yeah, to really contribute to making sure I stayed mentally well, you know, regardless of what the birth was like that I was, you know, very sort of maintained that that wellness afterwards and I mean, SS birth was awesome. It was I felt incredibly powerful like after her birth, and I can't downplay how much of that additionally contributed to my mental health. Yeah, just not even remotely the same as the first one. But I think another really important thing was that Mitch and I So we were all we were living in our new house that he actually built, which was wonderful. So our kids get to say, Daddy built this house. So that's so lovely. But we, we let go of the things. So, you know, washing would pile up, but hey, they will clean, it was fine. I didn't need to go away. Maybe the dishwasher didn't go on, you know, toys stayed out, I let go of what we were talking before about, you know, perfectly curated Instagram feed I let go of that. I was like, that's not me. That's not gonna happen. Because we sort of stayed in our bubble a little bit. But we most definitely, we had meals already in the freezer ready to go. And, you know, I, I'd made sure that the only was still out of there, go out doing fun things with family a few days a week. So I just had that time with their star. And yeah, so I, I really intentionally looked at what state what kept me mentally well, and then incorporated that as best I could. But it didn't mean that I didn't have down moments and down days, and that's what I made sure I shared as well on on my Instagram, because I didn't want it to be this highlight reel of Yes, I'm fine all the time. I wanted it to be much more, you know, vulnerable and real. I guess. Just just more real, have that experience that? Yes, we will. We will have some incredible moments, but there will also be some challenging, challenging quotes as well. So yeah, I think those are probably the key things I did differently. But we talk about laughter and being silly. And that is something that it's, it's incredibly important to me to incorporate fun into, you know, anything that that I do and going back to Dr. Sophie Brock, remember what I did. What sort of led me to her is that a friend? Just before her membership, she had a course. And I think it was deliberate. And a lot of yes, in part of liberate was you had to write your motherhood manifesto. And for me, the top thing I wrote and I still have it was around integrating fun and silliness into my day and my parenting. So yeah, that was that's been something, I guess leading into it. I wouldn't have thought about but as Mary said, you know, these little things that continue to happen and snowball. Yeah, so I guess that's in a snapshot, you know, in a really brief way things I might I did a bit differently. No, that's awesome. And I love that, that, that fun, because I feel like you can get bogged down so much in the day to day and the grind and you can actually forget, you know, to be light hearted and enjoy yourself and and and I think that also helps your relationship to with your partner, if you can actually attorney then you're not as grumpy as always, and you can have that, you know, that fun that you would have had before you had the kids? I guess you reminded of that. Yeah, well, we actually the other week, my mom had them both of ours for the full day, a full day, which had not happened outside of you know, having to work. And I said to me it we can like look at each other, and like talk to each other. And it was so it was so funny. We watch movies, we went and had lunch and wine and then we come back and watch more movies. That is awesome. Yeah, so it was just it was wonderful because I mean we can sometimes forget in the busyness and you know the depletion sometimes of it to to nurture those relations off. Absolutely I mean I've I've done it many times so it was lovely to just go oh yes hello Yeah, it's easy to take each other for granted this for sure. Mary I want to come back to something you've said a couple of times and I've got to jump on it now about mom guilt. How do you feel about it now? After you know you shared your experience about not feeling like you could have a shower or and that sort of stuff? What What are your thoughts on it in these days? Oh, entirely, entirely different. So I mean, I still feel it occasionally. Sometimes, I think it's inevitable that we'll feel it to some extent, just the same way, I believe dads would feel guilty about something as well, just the normal sort of human experience of feeling guilt. But in terms of actually being a mom and taking that time for myself, no. So I guess it's twofold. I haven't done a lot of that conditioning around what I'm allowed to do, or whatever, you know, and what will make me feel good. And I've also communicated to hubby very explicitly. And I mean, like, very explicitly, all Mary would have been that person that sort of didn't communicate it properly, and then kind of let it fester in the background, and then went quiet or eventually flew off the handle, and he would have no idea what I was upset about, or what was going on. And so I guess the teaching skills coming up, like very explicit and direct of when you come home sometimes and I'm fed up and I've had a day, I just, I'm going to take half an hour, and I don't, I don't want to feel guilty about it. I don't want to feel bad about it. I just need you to take her and just do what you need to do. And I will repeat when I feel like I will reappear when I'm more than ready. And yeah, no, I don't feel guilty about that at all. Because I'm with my daughter still sort of 24/7 She's not in any type of care. Again, as you can hear she's back again with her animals and just wanting to make an appearance in our podcast. Because I am with her all the time. I think it goes back together those little moments that I can get and finding. Like finding things we both enjoy doing, right? Like I love going up to the lookout around my area just because it's peaceful, and I enjoy it. And she loves it. She's kind of plotted around or to the birds. And I think so make it a priority to go. Yeah, well, we can go up to the lookout and we can spend time together there. And I don't need to feel guilty about like, no, everybody's getting their needs met. Right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think a lot about how we can create Win Win situations as well. It's not always going to be the case. Of course, I go to many a library, dance class and art class and playing groups and gymnastics today. Actually, I can make it a priority to go. Yeah, I can talk to mums there. And I can still make it an enjoyable experience for me as well. Yeah, no, I don't, I don't feel as guilty. I say no, a lot more. My family lives in Sydney. So sometimes have you will want to go see in laws on like me, I'm actually not going to come today, you take it out, you take home and you're gonna have a great time. And I don't have to feel bad about that. I don't need to be everywhere, all the time. Because my risk matters. I explained it to a friend the other day as I know what it feels like to have a rattling nervous system constantly. So when it's rattling, and once you recognize how to calm that and feel at peace, you can't you can't go back I accept nothing less essentially. So the guilt kind of dissolved with that. Yeah, over time, essentially kind of dissolved, I think on its own. Because I realized I was a better mom, a better wife a better person when I was taking care of those things. So why should I feel guilty about that's a positive? Absolutely. I'm just trying to do a podcast with a three year old would have brought me incredible, like anxiety years ago, but now I find him just roll with the punches. Yeah, that's such my role model marry with that, I mean, so many times with us working together. Because I guess I feel, you know, you've got that still within me and it's dissolving, but you know, that that sort of people pleasing that, you know, validation, like and wanting to move things quickly. Yeah. Mary has been so wonderful at just helping me take a breath. And, you know, not move faster than we need to and just, you know, what, it's fine that doesn't need to be done today. And so, even though you know, I understand some of that, you know, the theory understood it theoretically, about you know, how to come on over system and, and I'm relatively okay with it. I still sometimes need that prompt of, hey, how about we just take a breath and let's just push this back. But I will say on the flip side, Jesse goes fast and I go slower, as in not fast in a bad way. But we've probably we meet beautifully in the middle so I really need her to give me a bit of a kick. It's been so perfectly. It's been very complimentary as an IT because your mirror will be like, Oh, look, how about we consider x y Zed. And that's been a very crucial element to, you know, maybe the story or what we're doing. But if I'd wanted to speed on past that, it wouldn't have been addressed in a way that gave it the most kind of meaning and impact. Yeah, so, yeah, we've needed each other. And I mean, there's been some times to when, you know, we've wanted to consider something. And I said, Oh, no, no, excellent. You know, let's go. And then we have, but we've needed both to be able to bring this project to you to where it is. So yeah, we perfectly complement each other. Really, it sounds amazing. Isn't it funny hate people, you just meet people in your life like that, like just the randomness of everything that's had to happen to get you to get the point where you're at? It's just, I love stuff like that. Yes, absolutely. I mean, yeah, within, like, straightaway, Mary and Mitch, were just, you know, giggling with each other. And because he's very cheeky, and Mary is totally on board that train. So, you know, like, they were bouncing off each other. And our kids were playing wonderfully, but because we have similar similar parenting values, like we could perfectly support them in whatever they were feeling in any moment. So it was, it was easy for that reason, as well, which is sometimes half the battle with Yeah, that's the how to search for it. parenting styles are afflicting it can be tricky. You know, like everyone's doing the best they can. So yes, I absolutely acknowledge that. But it was yes, it was very useful. But yes, it was a random series of events. Yeah. No, love it. I just love it. So where are you? At? what point are you at with the book at the moment? Oh, do you want to talk about that America? I'm being doctor at the same time because I was multitasking Mark. I'm a vet. I'm helping some animals here. Do they seem to be a yes. At all? Um, yeah. So basically, we have an illustrator over in the US who is very hard on working on our storyboard. We've sort of finalized that, essentially. And she's got sketches. So it's so interesting getting set the updates, and you realize what she's done a few more pages and the words that we've said, and the description we've given her actually come until it's real. So yeah, so we're still hoping for an end of June release. And I think we're on track with that. But also open to the fact that, you know, if it pushes out to July, we're okay with that as well. But yeah, it's just a lot of back and forth with the illustrator now. So the thing is, I sometimes feel sorry for our Illustrator, because she's incredibly patient, and we throw a lot at her, we really do. Traditionally, you know, if you were to because we're self publishing, if you were to actually get a published, you would send a manuscript, they would essentially choose an illustrator, your book would appear illustrated. But yeah, we have very big ideas of what could be on each page, we just can't actually bring it to life ourselves. So you're trying to get her to kind of understand that has been like a journey. And you know, it's hard when you got something in your head, and you're trying to really explain it, but she's, she's doing beautifully with that. So we're um, yeah, I think I feel like we're on track. She's kind of really pushing along now. Yeah. We're just sort of thinking about what the front cover should be. We're going back and forth. But that's starting to make more sense. And then, yeah, we have, we had run our Kickstarter campaign back in November to December of last year, and raise what we raised $8,000 For our book to be published. So very interesting. You Yeah, so we kind of ran this thinking, oh, yeah, we'll get some support. Like, we know, we've got some people out there that want to see this book come to life. But then we got an incredible amount of support and managed to fund it through that. So yeah, there's people with some pre orders and things like that. And we just kept sort of slowly pushing the message, but Jesse does work as well. I've got Missy with you do it in the pockets of time. Yeah. But we could be doing more maybe. But I don't know. We're just sort of doing it at our own pace, you know, and it's all sort of making sense like Jesse said, like if we had persevered and tried to get this book out like already or even last year or something. I just, it might not have had the depth and the layers to it, as it has an Yeah, so we're just we're just sort of doing our thing. And I'm excited to hold it in my hands is a big part of me that thinks is not real. It's real. It's real. It's happening. I've seen the storyboard and I think, yeah, that's us, like, this is somebody else. We, we are doing this, we just need to hold it first. Yeah. But there's been so many beautiful moments to it. Because Mary and I have spoken so much, it's, we will be so excited to hold it. But we have had so much fun, doing basically every step of the process, you know, from coming up with a manuscript to starting to share online to spark October to putting together a Kickstarter, which is a feat in itself. And then to having that actually be successful. I think we were will be one or two days out from the deadline. And we will basically refresh it. You know, I was at home for the day doing, you know, parenting, but always like refreshing it. And this donation come in, that was the exact amount we needed to kick it over. And I was like, grab the phone call Mary. She said she's looking at going, you must have fun. Anyway, it was just that in itself means. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And I love that you guys, you're not, you're not pushing it. Like, it's a thing that happens. As a you know, what's the word in conjunction with your life, like it fits into your life? So then hopefully, it doesn't cause you know, extra stress or, you know, because, yeah, we've all got that already. So, you know, it's just something enjoyable. And, you know, yeah, keeps you're gonna cut that out. But oh, no, I say, um, all the time. But yeah, it's a thing that you guys can experience and enjoy and look back on that the process was enjoyable, you know? Yeah. And that, for me, it's always it's very important. I have to, it's not just the outcome that I need to be, you know, in love with, it's the process of getting to that outcome. The act in itself has to bring me joy felt really to be to be worth it. At the other end, so, yeah, because I guess, you know, for me, it's your being able to access our creativity. You know, it is it's a stress relief. And but I think, though, too, it doesn't always owe us anything, you know, in this moment, it's bringing me joy, it doesn't necessarily have to have that tangible, tangible outcome. I don't, it's so interesting to think how many hours we would have spent on it, and I would do it again, I wouldn't get Yeah, my husband actually said that you're saying is how many hours? Do you think you spent? I said, I don't know. I mean, I was doing it with a with a tablet tucked under my arm. You know, I'm a night owl Jesse's an early riser. So I would be sending stuff in a Canva document. She'd get it at 5am and reply and that sort of that we worked it. But yeah, he asked that any any made this joke lots of you know, you can be famous with this book. I said, my intention? Yeah, sorry, guys. I have no intention of being I don't want to be famous. In fact, if I just have one man that reads it and goes, that's a little bit better. And it reminded me that, you know, I do matter now, like I can focus my thoughts on life. Like, I'm winning. And it's so cliche to say it that way, but that genuinely is how we're thinking about it. Like, we're not trying to get anything from it. It's not it's just, it's just an expression wrapped up in a picture book. For others to enjoy. And that's it. It's like a see, like, for me to him. Finley doesn't really care now too much. But one day, I'm sure both of them will know more. And I mean, for me to just be able to, you know, give that to my children. What's legacy? See, you know, so exactly what Mary said, you know, for just even if one mom reads it and resonates with it, and maybe feels empowered to make some changes in her life or ask for what she wants or needs, and then for our children to me, maybe. Yeah, you know, I will not see coming back to what I was saying before my children who know me absolutely, yes. Oh, I love it. I love it. It's so exciting. Good on you girls. I'm really excited for it. Sorry, we have to be best place for people to follow along. And you mentioned about pre orders. Can people pre order or is that was that just on the Kickstarter thing. We'll we've just got to sought that out. So yeah, we're, we're in the process of making sure that people can can do that ahead of time. But we are having the most fun over on our Instagram we marry out at the mom who found her sparkle, so it's just our joint one. We do things on our separate ones and often posted there as well. And we pop up a lot sometimes, although we might disappear for a little while, then we pop up. Again, we this is how we're rolling with it. But yeah, the mummy found a sparkle is where you find everything book related, essentially. Excellent. I'll put a hyperlink in the show notes so people can click along and follow the journey. Oh, that's right. It's so lovely to have you both on today. Thank you so much for having me. And unmuting every. It's, it's been wonderful. That's been great. And all the best with it. I really hope it's it's, I don't know that feeling when you do get it in your hands. It's like this amazing moment for you both, I think. Yeah, wonderful. And I will definitely be getting a copy of myself. So I think adding it to my collection of spoken to people on the podcast is pretty cool. You would have a wonderful collection of things based on the beautiful conversations. You've had lots of lovely books. I'm very, very fortunate actually, this feels like a sort of an off side of like an unexpected side of talking to lots of people is is I have just collected lots of amazing books. Dream actually. So yeah, so we're looking forward to add your book tour at some point in the very near future. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

(Subscribe on iTunes, Spotify , Amazon , Audible , Google podcasts ) Jedda Glynn is a designer and small business owner from Burrungule, South Australia and a mother of 3. Jedda Grew up in a small country town, surrounded by a creative family. She’s been a dancer her whole life, running the Kongorong Calisthenics Club for many years, and recently starting her own small business, The Springs Creative, where Jedda arranges rustic dried flowers, with the help of her young children. We chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life, the joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children and the importance of having a supportive family around her, and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. **This episode contains discussions around domestic violence and an abusive relationship** Connect with Jedda on Instagram Find out about Squib Group Find out more about the Kongorong Calisthenics Club Connect with the podcast here Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Thank you! Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I’m beyond honoured that you’re here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast – can’t wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Ch eck out more episodes .....

Jillian Lauren US best selling author + journalist S2 Ep70 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am thrilled to welcome Jillian Lauren to the podcast this week, a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock + roll wife + mother of 2 based in Los Angeles, United States Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey and graduated from Newark Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University. Soon after, she started exotic dancing in New York at the Kit Kat Club + became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the Prince of Brunei for 18 months. When Jillian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with an Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career, with Jillian's work since appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles Magazine. Jillian is a New York Times Best Selling author of 2 memoirs Some Girls: My Life in a Harem , about her experience as The Harem Girl, and Everything You Ever Wanted about her journey of adopting her son Tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tariku came to the family as an 18 month old, and brought with him intense trauma responses and during the next few years Jillian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her instincts. Jillian and her husband Scott Shriner (bassist from Weezer) added to their family in 2015 when they adopted through the US foster system their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and has an autism diagnosis. She has also written a fiction novel entitled Pretty and has an upcoming novel based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel Little called Behold the Monster coming out in 2023 . Several of Jillian’s manuscripts are being developed into TV + Film projects the most recent being Confronting a Serial Killer released on STARZ. The five-episode series tells the story of the relationship between Jillian Lauren + the most prolific serial killer in American history Sam Little, and her work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered, before he passes away. **This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss + miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer and does contain a bit of swearing** Visit Jillian's website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age + ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Jillian Lauren. Julian is a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock and roll wife and mother of two based in Los Angeles in the United States. Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey, and graduated from New York Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University and soon after started exotic dancing at the KitKat club and became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the prince of Brunei, where she stayed for 18 months. When Julian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career with Julian's work now appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles magazine. Julian is a New York Times best selling author of two memoirs, some girls my life in a harem about her experience as the harem girl and everything you ever wanted about her journey of adopting her son tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tarik, who came to the family as an 18 month old and brought with him intense trauma responses, and during the next few years, Julian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her own instincts. Jillian and her husband, Scott Shriner, the bass player from Weezer, added to their family in 2015. When they adopted through the US foster system, their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and an autism diagnosis. She's also written a fictional novel entitled prissy, and has an upcoming novel. Based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel little called Behold The Monster coming out in 2023 Several of Julian's manuscripts are being developed into TV and film projects, the most recent being confronting a serial killer released on stars. The five episode series tells the story of the relationship between Julian and the most prolific serial killer in American history, Sam little and Julian's work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered before he passes away. This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss and miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer, and it does contain a bit of swearing. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient new age music trio, LM J, which is comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Julian. It's a real pleasure to meet you. It is so nice to be here. Yeah. And it's funny. I feel like I kind of know I don't know you but I know so much about you through the memoirs that you've written. How did you first sort of get into writing? Well, I have kept a journal since I was eight. So I always wrote always, like I had that, you know, muscle in place. But you know, I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be director I want to be anything but a writer and it really took you know, a journey through some unusual places until I landed where I belong, you know, until I I said to myself, like, what is it that has been consistent in my life for all these years? What do you think? What do you think you were sort of pushing back against the writing that you didn't sort of validate it really hard? Really hard. It's, it's, it's hard to finish. It's hard to start. It's just hard. Like, if you can possibly choose anything else choose anything else? Well, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And, and being a memoirist, it's, you're very, you're being very vulnerable, which I want to commend you for too, because the things that you're sharing, you know, people can relate to, and it opens these opportunities for conversations, which are really important. Did you find was that the first sort of style of writing that you went to? Like, I guess, because if you're journaling in your diary, no, because I couldn't sell my first novel. Yeah. That's the memoir. To tell you the truth. I wanted nothing more than to never write that memoir. Yeah. Why to never write some girls, because I knew I knew was sensational. Like that it would get bought, very likely, you know, because I'm not the only woman who was over there. But, you know, I'm also a real writer. Yes. There are so many book clubs I go to where they're like, do you write your own book? I'm like, I'm the writer. Yeah. I'm not like a celebrity with a ghostwriter. Um, yeah, that's it. But it was really scary. And I knew what I was doing. And I tried very hard to eat much more New York curry. And that's always you know, how I saw myself, you know, at the Algonquin club or something, and I'm like, okay, given the times. And, you know, and they were like, nah, nah. And I had just gotten out of graduate school, and I started librarian school, I started to get my master's in library science, because I was starting to think like, you know, I need a plan B. And my husband was like, you know, when I said, I would support you through graduate school. That wasn't like, forever of graduate school. So, like, can you tell me what the plan is here? And, and I was like, you know, what gave me three months. Give me just give me three months, I have this one card left to play. And I talked to my agent. And you know, she's like, I can't sell this. I'm sorry. I love it. I can't sell it. And I was like, Well, you know, I've been thinking writing a memoir, this really interesting thing happened to me, I was the Mistress of the principle and I when I was a teenager, and she was like, what? Job was on the table, you know, like, how have you not told me this before? And I was like, I didn't want to write about it. That's why and, you know, and she was like, Well, do you genuinely feel like you're ready to write about it now? Like, consider all the consequences? Consider, you know, what it means to become memoirist. Consider you're going to be the heroine girl for the rest of her life. When she did you get to a certain point where you're like, okay, not so bad. Not so bad harem girl but I that was actually a quote from one of the other women who was who was in printer, who I still keep in touch with and yeah, you know, she said, like, I mean, thank God, I just something crazy. That's something like that. Not many people could say that. They've had an exciting experience like that. And it's such an exciting life. There is definitely an element of, of edge pushing to my life. You know, I'm an adrenaline junkie. I'm super curious. I always want to see the things that people aren't looking at, you know, I want I want to see the man behind the curtain. Ilana, like, you know, just like I just have the urge to have that kind of bite out of life and it doesn't was winding up in the best places, you know. But it has given me some very interesting stories the next memoir that I've read that you wrote was everything you ever wanted. Can you share with the viewers the sorry, not the viewers, the listeners, what that books about? Everything You Ever Wanted is about the process of adopting my older son. He's 14 Now, his name is tariku. We call them T. And he was adopted from Ethiopia. And before that, we had an extensive history with infertility and that and miscarriages. A lot of miscarriages. We were just sort of reflecting on it the other day. Now that's so far in the past, and like, there was a minute, my period was late. And I was just like, oh, wow, like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, gosh, yeah, I do not have enough notice for this right now. And we were just laughing and you know, of course, you know, we would have just accepted it as a blessing it was but yeah, and you know, whether it was miscarriage, just like period or whatever, like it hadn't happened in years. So we were reflecting on how painful that journey was. And, you know, now we have teenage boys, and it's not painful to me anymore, but I can remember. Yeah, yeah, it felt like and also like, your concerns get so different. Yeah, yeah. You know, try like listening with a glass trying to figure out who's a girlfriend? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Any wants to go to Annapolis? He must be like a navy combat pilot. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, and like, he's a whole person. But, you know, I wrote this book every day, I sat down and people criticize, I'm sure as you know, you know, people, women who talk about parenting, right about parenting, or podcasts about parenting mate material about parenting, like, we're exploiting our children. And I'm like, you know, parenting is as valid and experience you know, motherhood is as valid and experience as climbing Mount Everest, or anything else, or bagging groceries, or, you know, might be kowski worked at the post office. So what I was going through was early motherhood. And, you know, and adoption, which was, you know, really exciting, an interesting process, and I was dying to write about that. And, and our beautiful like, we consider our family that we met during that trip who really changed our life. We were there were nine families all together. And we really went through something together and not to like give any spoilers but for instance, they did our paperwork wrong. So we went through the whole week there and Addis transitioning him out of the orphanage you know how painful and difficult that was and of course I have 1000 funny stories about like, you know, like he's not pooping die people other people in the house that were already parents so they were Yeah, lets us but um you know, I mean, we all still keep in touch. Yeah, that's from and when our they had written your, we were like, supposed to adopt a child up to four years old. Like that. You You know, except they wrote four months old. Yeah. This the paperwork. So we're standing there like at the embassy, I am like, I have like the baby, and ergo, we're like ready to get on a plane the next day. There's nowhere to sit. It's just like, there's nowhere to go. Everyone else got their stuff. And they just kind of like walked away from us. And we were like I mean, I was running around, like, it was, you know, like, like, there was like, an alarm that nuclear missiles were coming. Like, I was like, shaking people. They're like, where did that man go? That man who was right there? Where did that man go? Anyway, so the whole group had a chance to go home, you know, we would have had just stayed there. And they come back for us, obviously, we're going to stay there for a long time. And they all stayed with us. Yeah, could pay for. I mean, it was like, it was most unlikely group of friends. And we all still, you know, love each other kids still know each other's incredible process. So, you know, I wanted to write about that those friendships. And then, you know, realizing that T was, you know, had special needs. And there's been diagnosed and re diagnosed column what? calm a lot of things. You know, diagnoses aren't magic. They can just maybe help you communicate with people. Right? About what might help. You know, I mean, basically, everything. We're like, Alright, so for $5,000, you just told us exactly what we already know. Thank you so much. I'm just, you know, the screening, screening and just learning for me to settle into this, you know, acceptance, which we all do as mothers, but I'm like it, I am a very imaginative and a kind way to myself, but, you know, also sort of a controlling person, I would like to, I would like to, like, set the diorama stage and, you know, bring my baby home and have I done all the reading all the, you know, I had to like mill to do the organic baby food and shit. I was canning, I don't know what happened. I really doubt. But, you know, what, he didn't give a shit about organically milled anything. And anything, or, you know, and I was like, we're gonna make homemade bread. Um, and, you know, that wasn't what you wanted or needed. It was, you know, that was my idea. Yeah. Do you want a given what her need? Do you think that some of that is sort of brought on by what, like society expects us mothers to be and the standard that they expect us to hold ourselves to? Yeah, I mean, really, I mean, not all of it, because I'm a little hyperactive myself. So, you know, it's like, you know, Scott will say, like, you know, I'll, I'm writing an article about Tango. So I, all of a sudden, like, all do is Tango for two solid months, like, I'm out every night till two in the morning, smelling like Argentine gangsters when I come home, you know? And, and then article came out and like, I haven't dance. And so, you know, it's like, I picked up on every, every parenting trend, every one of them, you know. And in Los Angeles, it's like, I mean, I imagine like in most major cities, you find you're sort of, you know, you have to find your sort of niche. If you want community to support us. So, you know, we had friends that were into Waldorf, we had friends that were into something called dry. I don't know if you know what that is. It's basically like, put your babies in an octagon and just like, let them work it out. Let the curiosity out. Okay. It's a new one for me. I went to this Oh, I mean, and the baby yoga and ever, and all these kids are like, you now and my kid just gets in there and just wants that toy. And Bob said, Can the head and takes it. And you're supposed to sit there and watch, right? That's like the whole idea of a thing. Like you don't interfere with their their growth or their interaction during the group. And at some point, I was just looking at, I was like, Do you guys want me to get my kid because he's gonna hurt your kids. Like, this is not a principle that works for everyone. You know, but everyone thinks the thing that not everyone, there plenty of people have had multiple experiences, you know, the thing that they find that whatever methodology of parenting or schooling, works for them is the only way and it's hard for me to explain to them, like, my kid would have been kicked out of a Waldorf school and a week, you know, and, like, the French school. Like, wouldn't just already knew that we're going to kick them out. But we are going to kick them out. Yeah, you know. So it was about that journey for me. And, you know, as all my books are, and people find it hard to be written about not t he loves that book. Yeah. But he, you know, he knows, he knows what happened, you know, and he knows sort of my version of it. And he has his version of it. And he's really proud of the book. And so my No, and that was my goal. When I wrote it. I was like, This is a gift to my son. Yeah, you know, I'm talking about all this stuff, warts and all. But this is a gift to my son, ultimately, that, you know, the first, like, almost three years of his life are really pretty. You know, like, the major points are pretty well documented in that book. And I would hope that you know, that that that'll be special to him someday. Jovi's book coming, I'm like, No, I'm so done. Do you might get an essay, like second child syndrome Yeah. You just mentioned JB, how old? Is he idea? Yeah. So he, he came to you in a slightly different way was through. Right. So we adopted tea from Ethiopia when he was 11 months old. We thought, you know, Ethiopia would be a great choice again, because there's so much you know, it's a rich culturally, and he's really into it. And, you know, there were no more adoptions happening in Ethiopia at the time. I was just going over there and doing kind of grassroots work in communities and, and, and orphanages and stuff. So, I mean, that was best I could do like to be close to his culture, but we'd have to Jovie out of the foster care system here. DCFS. And we had really, we knew that the likelihood of black boys being adopted after the age of two, I mean, the likelihood of Blackboard is being adopted at all. But after the age of two, like it's almost nothing. Percentages are so low. And we had been through so much with T. And he was really kind of out the other side of it by then. I mean, he's still like struggling attention and stuff. But you know, he wasn't. I mean, now, like I said, you you would never guess. Yeah, yep. No, it was just like, I'm like, here's the perfect. Here's the perfect example. She the minute I open Christmas ornaments for the first time. And he looked at them, he just picked one. Just a ball looks like a ball rather than the wall. Oh, yeah. goes in like tiny shards, a really thin glass all over the living room. Yeah. Joe V, we adopted to DCFS because, like, we felt really moved by that. And also, we thought like, if not us, then who? I mean, really, we've been through so much. We have these resources. You know, like, we have resources for another child. And we have resources for, you know, therapy with like, no, the best therapists we have done all this training. And, um, and it was still so scary. Yeah. You really, really scary, like Skarner those, you know, we both have, we're both prayerful people. We don't often pray together. There have been only like a handful of times in our life. And we come from different traditions. So like, pray differently. But like after the first time, we met Jovi, and we realized he couldn't really talk. You know, like, half his mouth was all rotted out. I changed his diaper stone diapers. I mean, he was wearing a size two, us three and a half. Like, there was no hand soap in the house. He was getting the shit beat out of him by older kids. And it was really scary. You know, and we pulled the car over and just like, held hands and just prayed for guidance and and, you know, and sad sat there for a minute together. And he turned and looked to me and he said, you know, someone's gotta believe in someone's on time. Live Let's believe in this kid. It's making that's yeah. Oh, yeah. Such an asshole. Sometimes she really nails it like the times that he nails it, he nails it. One of them someone's gonna believe in someone sometime. And you know, and the first months with Jovi for us were like, we would just hold him while he screamed and scream and like, sweat was covering his body. Like he was so slick. Like, we were like, human hold on to him. And you know, who's screaming cry, he would lie under the bed. Like, I would just go and kind of lie next to the bed. Like, I'm just here. You know, we're gonna talk. Like you didn't even have any words. You didn't know a cow said Moo. Yeah, and 123 or ABC, you know? So not only is he in this totally unfamiliar environment doesn't understand why. Um, he only now barely understands why. Yeah, wrap his head around what happened? You know, the events life that led us here. And he's only just starting to ask. But yeah, it was like, I mean, he was always so funny. Yeah. So funny. And so adorable. I mean, all these are survival skills, you know, the same way like a big shining bright star. Um, and you know, in, in traumatic situations for children, they'll often get really big and now there'll be the one that gets the attention. Or the one that gets more food maybe or the one that you know. Yeah, yeah, so Jovi. I'm thinking it really started to turn around for us. Like three years ago, you know, we took him to, he got an autism diagnosis, we took him to a really specialized preschool that was almost like one on one. Yeah. And there were like, only five kids in the class. And you know, it was specifically for kids with autism. For the most part, you know, or symptoms presenting that way. And we had to attend with him for like, the first six months. I know. I know. Like, you are fucking with me right now. Like, I can't even drop this kid off at autism preschool. Like, what do you do here? Please, God, someone helped me. But it was amazing. It totally changed things. He did, you know, he matriculated in kinder, and we had a really supportive school, really supportive Public Charter School, who love the kids and aren't scared. They, they're not scared of a diagnosis. They're, they do IEPs, which are individualized education programs, if your kid needs, you know, because every kid is supposed to get the education they need. And so they do their own IPs. They have great people who work with Jovi and he plays a violin and he dances and he knows how to take breaks. And I mean, he is he's brilliant. He's working at and above grade level. Yeah, like you told me the other day like I don't want to be in this baby math class anymore. failing math class. School is not necessarily separated by grade all the time. Like they'll have like a b and c mat and and like they might have kids from different grades in like who are just at that level of math right. So I you know, I called the school I was like me, can we have a meeting because Joby feels like he's in the baby math class? And they're like, Joby, you are the youngest person in your class. You're not in the baby math class, and you're not ready for the next one. But what a what a miracle. Oh, yeah. It's, it's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah, I love soccer. He loves our animals. Yeah. And the trauma stuff, it's all there. No, and for both of them, it comes out. At different times, there are different triggers, like the job aids, a lot of medical stuff, hospitals, things like that. Like we had to take them to the hospital, he had a really high fever and hell get bronchial stuff. It changed the hospital recently, and that check blood and he for two days was like, a one year old. You know, if you progress you know, and so different things would trigger it. And it'll come popping up but I mean, I don't think about it every minute of every day anymore. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. So it's I mean, you you've been through so much. And you know, I think it's like it's a credit to yourself and to Scott that, you know, you've got so much love to give your children and you know, like you said you've done certain training like you've learned how to assist them when they need it and it's just it's a joy like you're experiencing now. You know, the other side of it. It's wonderful Jovi when his soccer game, even though I had to pay I have six. You know, I'm just like, you're supposed to like it just being an all star team is just parent torture. Like I made all stars. Yay. Yeah, we have to do I have to like drive an hour 630 On a Sunday. But um, how old are your kids? So Alex, he's 14 and Digby seven. So if we ever get, but I can relate to the likes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, degrees just started playing tennis and it's the first time we've had any either child play a Saturday morning sport. So we're like, geez, we did want to get out of it for this. Now. Now I do. Yeah. Got like, I pulled the curtains at six this morning. You know what Soccer League? is what I think about you cycling Yeah. Nik, I know you've you said before we started recording, you've been talking a lot about your serial killers and things. But I sort of without talking specifically too much about that. But I want to talk about how it's affected you as a mother. It's pretty full on. It has been, it has been really hard. And I can't say I feel like I have an answer for you. That worked. Yeah, no, I was totally successful. Because everyone in my family was affected by me working on that story. You know, and it happened like that, like at the very end of it. When everyone was like, like, this is like enough of this poison in our lives, even though the work I was doing was so amazing and wonderful and gratifying in terms of the victims. Like, I was talking on speakerphone to a serial killer every single day. And then COVID hit, and everyone's in the house all the time. Yeah. And so like, it's not that big of a house. I can know and it echoes and stuff and like, and they know who they know what I do. And they know who I'm talking to it. Like, I mean team more than Jovi, you know, but T asks and I answer and I say you know, this is like, disturbing. disturbs me. And I love that you're curious because like Alaska, how they solve the case or something. Like I love that you're curious. I love talking about this stuff. But like also do you want to talk about how it makes you feel? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mama dog bite out makes me feel that, you know, he's like, he's like junior detective. So like, he'll get into the, you know, is a really good linear critical thinker. So like, he'll get into the, like, the stories leads and stuff with me, but I'm really, you know, it, it affected the most, because I wasn't around the piece that involves a lot of traveling. And it was just also present involved like me working 12 to 14 hours a day. So I wasn't around. And I was like an on hyper vigilance. Getting these calls from a serial killer every day. Yeah. Um, and you know, which was both for audio content for the documentary and stuff, but it was mostly, you know, to have a record of the kind of details I was getting from him to give to law enforcement. Because like I work very closely with law enforcement during the scene. Um, little case, because like I had his year, you know? Or he had my year end in a case. Yeah. Um, so I wasn't around a lot. I was when I look back, I can see it more than I saw then that like, my anger was coming out. Yeah. You know, because it's like they can deal with sadness. And just like if if you're crying, they don't mommy cries like that. It's like a joke. Mommy cries, right. Like, like, if there's ever a scene in a movie that's sad. Like, like, I mean, don't even talk to me about Mallanna. Okay. Ana has like four huge crime moments like to and you get over him fast, but Mallanna. So they'll be like, are you crying and crying? But I think I was. I was angry. No. And that was coming out in a way that I am from New York, I'm sarcastic. i If you have dinner with my family, you are going to have to, like raise your decibel level to get heard. Um, you know, and like, we razz each other all the time. And it just, it's an East Coast thing. It's just it's just how my family is. Oh, do I know my biggest parenting tip? Yeah. You want to know how to get your kids to not swear? Swear all the time? Really? I mean it. Yeah. And brown who's also whose parenting counselor says the same thing. She has a really filthy mouth. You know, like, Fuck was every other word. My house. So you know, I'm like, sorry, Mommy's not gonna go changing and this is parents don't talk like that do they don't? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Yeah, that's the thing is that like you? You talked about that anger. And I guess that's thing you're processing all your emotions that you're going through, and you're speaking to this man and finding out all these things and, and dealing with the families of, of people that he's harmed. And then you're trying to process that volume of it. Overwhelming. I mean, there were 93 confessions. Like it's hard enough to deal with one. That's just you can't fathom, like sort through this. I mean, I had 40 notebooks, it was glitzy making. And I think that, you know, what I didn't have was that tiny bit of extra space. Like, that was there for a really long time. That could always like make a beautiful dinner, you know, and just like reconnect, or sit and watch movie with Jovi or play cards or something. And like, you know, I wound up just like, shoveling soup into my mouth in front of the computer for you know, I mean, years. So we're just sort of trying to get a routine back here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I do want to sort of shine a light on the work that you've done. It didn't commend you for that. And thank you for that. Because it's such important work and obviously the families of the women would be incredibly grateful for the work that you've done. I mean, I I know that you know, I know them I mean, not, you know, there were a few victims into which I did a really deep dive, and then a few victims that I helped solve the cases. And when I saw it from top to bottom, I figured out it was in a different jurisdiction. Yeah. And, and with that, I was able to find some articles that look like they matched, and that I went to the place. And it was exactly what Sam described. And you know, and I was, and that was Alice. And I'm really close with Alice's family. They came to town, her sister came to town with her two nieces. You know, they, they took me out to lunch. And, you know, like, they said that until they realized, like, until I called them and told them, you know, and I do it very, very slowly, like, the Navier sisters come up in some of my research. You know, and would you like to know anything about it? And then I'll, you know, I'll give him a chance to say no, I don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's not like you just bled all. Even with Debbie with Alice's sister. You know, she asked for a couple of days. And, and as a journalist, you're like, you know, you want to like you just have this instinct and this training to like, never walk away you walk away and give someone a couple days, then they're gonna decide not to talk to you. Yeah, that's right. Then if you let anyone think about it, they're gonna do it. She actually called me back and was like, okay, like I'm ready to talk about this I talked about with my kids talked about it with my husband. Like I'd like to hear everything you have I'm a member of the military and I'm have a very strong backbone and you know Tamera thing and and she's just remarkable and then Denise brothers, I went to Odessa, Texas just like drove there on my own and you know, and her family like welcomed me into their kitchen and showed me their pictures and love letters and you know Audrey Nelson's daughter and I do think that my kids understand that I mean, regardless of you know Sam little not being the last project of my life you know, we're gonna move on I will stay in this field continuing to find missing persons and you know just get it out there as much as I can and restore names to women who have been lost Yeah, good on you system etc. Yeah, I'm with you know, they're gonna they're gonna have to get behind. On that is it do you find that it's important that your children see you as more than a library air quotes is just mom because we're never just mom but that you're also contributing so much with your work that you're doing and your writing and your investigation. I imagine that their feelings about it are going to change over time. You know, Jovi will say things like you're always working mad like made me feel horrible. I don't know what they'll think and I don't think It's I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me. I was never gonna give up my career. You know? And, like, T asked me a few days ago, because I was like, Oh, over there baby pictures. I don't know why there was some out. Yeah. And there's, but we're both the cutest thing in the world. And, and, you know, of course, like all kids always want to hear about how cute they were when they're babies. And when the funny things they said, and they love their own mythologies. And he said, Well, you know, did you like it better? Or we got a new puppy. And he said, did you like better? Having a baby or having a teenager? And I said, How many teenager? Yeah, you know, and he was like, what? Like, how would you say like, I guess I was supposed to say, you know, I love him all like all those years. But I didn't. Like, I liked them. I mean, it's not like I liked them more. Now. I just liked my life more now. If they consider a restaurant, or I like our life as a family more now we went to a friend of mines been named spa the other day, and they were able to sit through the whole ceremony and I almost you could have knocked me over with a feather. Yeah. And and they're both like, into their things. And they're super interesting. And like, I don't have to, you know, be the party clown all day. My mother never understood, like, this parenting generation at all. She was like, What are you doing? What are you talking about? Because I was like, No, I gotta go this group and that group in this group in that group. She's like, can you just give them a choo choo? And like, put them in a play pen? What? Go home at Virginia slam and have a bottle of red wine which is just like your own nuts. You don't? Then but then again, you know, I did go and walk the route that I used to walk to school. Last time I was home and I was like, trying to get me killed. Seriously, that is a lonely path through a dark wood. Oh, no joke. It's got to be something in between, you know, but yeah, that battle, you know, now now that they're into their own things. I mean, of course, you know, I love babies and love baby smell. I love other people's babies. I love my grandbabies. Hopefully one day. But that's nice. I tell them the truth. And it was like, Oh, you're so horrible. I could do say that. Like, personnel and I really like you. Yeah. And see, that's the thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest with your children. Like, you know, we don't have to sugarcoat everything and make, you know, pleat. People please another night just can be honest with them and life's great now, you know, like, you'd be happy about that. I think that, you know, at the same time, I like to try and be conscious of, you know, I mean, maybe like the totally honest me is, is not to me, my kids need Yeah, like Vanita mitigated me, like so does everybody know I'm on to me, like full force. But, you know, they definitely bring like a consciousness to how I talk, you know, and, like, I know, I know that when I do it right. And don't like, you know, shames Graeme, all that stuff. When I do it right, and like, you know, have a conversation. I mean, there have been times like it actually worked recently. Yeah. Like, you're gonna have to learn to put your clothes away. Like, I'm not like I will, they will sit here in a pile until you do like you want to go to the Navy. By the way, get up and do some push up. Yeah. Oh, close away. So yeah, that sounds very similar to my son, he's wants to be in the army but never makes his bed fixed. Like, hang on a sec, that's not gonna cut it. You know, I, I think that he's been starting to be able to hear it. Like thinking about his future a little bit. That's been the biggest difference this year. He's 14, you know? And I've been like, Listen, I need you to hear me because you're like college, this in college, that when I'm in college, and I was like, colleges doesn't happen magically. Um, and we can't pay for a private college for two children for four years. Like, who can't who can't write. So I was like, we're gonna have to think creatively. You know, I don't want you in debt for the rest of your life, either. You know, so let's start to really think about this, you know, what scores do you need to get into what schools and and then you know, and all he wants airplanes, airplanes, air. And just like one day, I was like, What about the Air Force Academy? And he was just like, Huh. Like I was doing for ROTC program, which is like, where they start doing, like some military training when they're still in high school. Like, Yeah, boy scouts, but soldiers. Yeah, right. Yeah. And he was like, Huh. So then he got on to that. And then, you know, I started finding out about the Navy pilots, Annapolis, and then, you know, we worked up going to and we called my friend who was a pilot. And, and he said, you know, is there such a thing? Is there really such a thing as Top Gun? And my friend was like, There absolutely is. It's not called that. It's called, like, the flight defense superveloce Law, some stupid thing, like somebody in Hollywood camp, a Top Gun. But it isn't an absolutely real thing. And he said, but you're not going to get into it. It's like, the top 1% of fliers in the country. And, you know, it's like getting into Harvard, or like, you know, becoming president or something. Like, it's not quite that hard, but, you know, is, but it's like getting into Harvard. It's like, yeah, and, you know, the, the likelihood is, you won't get it. And you said, okay, you know, and they talked more and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, we were just talking I was like, so how does that make you feel? You know, when he says it's impossible? And he was like, um, I don't know. I was like, because when someone tells me something's impossible, it kind of makes me feel like proving them wrong. And I just watched his eyes light up. And oh, no, this one my friends. It's like pitching for the Dodgers. Right? Or like joining the NBA. Ya know, and I was like, you know, what, you you're 14. We know you're not pitching for the Dodgers. Sorry. You're not You're very good pitcher. But you're not pitching for the Dodgers. You know, and you're not in MBA either. That's not going to happen. I was like, but we don't know. What if you're, if you are going to be in the NBA of fliers. Pilots like you very well could be like the the amount of time he puts in on the flight simulator. And I was like, so. I mean, we could have a lot of different plans. But if that's what you want to do, let's go for it. You know, Oh yeah, that's awesome. It's so fun, you know, and then to have them be like, Yeah, I'm gonna be the Dodger pitchers of combat pilot. Good on him. So, it's really thrilling. It's really fun. I try not to get like, too excited though or like, show it about anything they're into. You know, because moms are not cool by their nature. Don't embarrass them. You tell me what you think, like this generation of kids are really different from me, like when my parents were 35 they were old people. Like they were total grownups. You know, who like stockbroker housewife, dinner parties, grownups and kids were like, you know, listen through from the upstairs. Um, and, like, and, and there was this combativeness between, you know, like, you make yourself like Adley and punk rock clothes are listening to punk rock music, or my parents really a hidden problem with that, like, why? Yeah, it seems like such such a tiny thing to sacrifice a relationship with your child for, um, but they were just raised by different people. But like, our friends, our group of friends and our kids, like, all hang out together. Yeah, it's definitely different. Like, I remember the same thing like Mum and Dad would have, they had, we had a passage door that sort of divided the living area and the bedrooms. And that whenever we went to bed that would always be shut, and we'd hear the, they'd be out there with their friends. And we could We'd sneak to the door and listen, you know, it's just, I feel like, like, us, our, our parenting styles have changed so much that we include our children in so much more now. And I think that also allows us to, I don't know, I don't wanna say not grow up, because we, you know, we physically grow up, but we were still ourselves. We don't have to take on this role of the big serious parents that you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, and that's also not me. You know, like, I mean, you know, entail I was doing some really serious journalism and traveling, like, the Deep South and stuff, and I took my hair back now, I had blue hair till just a few years ago. And man T would like be on the road and get our hair done together and matching blue hair. And it was just like, you know, how fun and also like, we don't listen to all that much different music than they do. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we're into superhero movies. I love Star Wars. So was his number one. Yeah. And that's driven by me. We are Marvel Universe here. Yeah. Yeah. All about Marvel. Yeah. We are like we already have tickets for Black Panther opening. Yeah, it's like, we're not that. I mean, now you know, T likes to just talk to his friends on the phone. Actually, one of his friends is going to show up any minute. But um, nice talk to his friends, you know, and just on his iPads I mean, he could do it all day long. So it's not like he wants to hang around us all the time. But like, we had a couple of nerf wars lately. Yeah. And you're my husband is veteran and a lot of our friends are also veterans. So they are extraordinarily serious about like, organizing the teams and you had to like each have a little, you know, space and you gotta go get the flag and get back and if you get hit twice, whatever. Yeah, um, you know, but like, they wanted the parents to play. Yeah. Last the last birthday party. We went to parents played kids in kickball. Yep. And great. Yeah. It's like, you know, like, parents versus kids. Like, I don't think. I mean, when I was 14, are you kidding? Like, yeah, it'd be just no way. Hey, we hated them. And we they wouldn't play kickball. Are you kidding? We're like busy smoking at the mall. Yeah, it's good. It's great. I'm so pleased. Like, I feel like I've got a really good relationship with my 14 year old like he, you know, we're very close. And it's really good. And I hope it stays that way. As he gets out of me, it goes up and down. You know, my 14 year old and I've always, we're both stubborn. And we've come to blows for sure. I'm not actual blows. But yeah. You know, we like to say lock horns. Yeah. And so, you know, it's been kind of up and down. But right now, I'm just enjoying them a lot. Yeah. So it's kind of them and they're trying, you know, we've been just sort of talking about how, you know, we all need help. And they're old enough now. To like, participate, you know, their babies, like, they don't need to be taken care of every single second of every day. And, you know, and that we're all participating in this house in this life. And we have to, like, act politely toward each other. And you know, not have to be asked seven times to put on your shoes or to go to bed or to like, it's just it's time for that all to stop now. Yeah. I can relate to that so much. Yeah. And put in the laundry away. And, you know, it's just yeah. And like we took Jovi to soccer game this morning and left to home alone. Yep. And I was just like, one. And Scott was like, He's 14. He's fine. He'll wake up, make his breakfast. He knows where we're going. You know, back in two hours. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, I guess I was babysitting when I was 12. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, so I think they're like, the kids are kind of younger now too. Yeah. I mean, little group and this little school. Very thankful for. Yeah. I told you that I I left home and went to college when I was 16. I did. And, and he's like, that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh, man, I was like, You know what, you are exactly correct. That was not a very good. I know, he said, Where was it? And I was like, it's it was in New York. It was in in Greenwich Village in New York. And he was like, you were living in New York when you were 16 That doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh. And I was like, Yeah, you know why? Because then I told him I sneak out of the house and take the bus into New York. I was like, you don't have to do that you like you're like I'm gonna go to a concert dad gets on the phone with his manager. You know, obviously if you guys have a box you know, I You really don't have any reason to get out of the house. Yeah. on that, but I can't let you go without mentioning. You've mentioned Scott a few times and his connection to music, that he's the bass player for Weezer, and full disclosure, I'm a massive what he's a fan. I've got my little ways of paying for the fair club. And I've seen him sing them twice. They've come to Australia a couple of times, but my, I've got to share with you my funniest Weezer story was when they first came out, I think it was 96 or 97. And I just started going out with, like, my husband, obviously, we weren't married then. And we were playing in Adelaide, which is five hours drive from here. And I said to him, I really want to go see this band. And my favorite band, like this sweater song was out. It was blue Album Era. And he said, Ah, you know, if they're big band, they'll they'll come back again soon, you know, we'll go next time, you know. Anyway, 14 years later, I waited 14 years to see them play in Melbourne, and I'm lying. Now I just got to the same thing that they hadn't been to us ever wanted to go so badly. And it was actually, like, one of the times that he was like, you know, I'd like to stay here a little longer. Like, there's some beach. That's supposed to be like, really cool. Is this Sydney? Or like Bondi Beach in Sydney? Maybe? Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. And he's like, I just want to go like, stay there for apps like do, please. You know, but it was like, too long of a flight for tea at that time. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. So I was gonna say I saw on your socials that he went on the last tour. With the band. Yeah. It's so great to juvie. Yeah, and it's perfect. Kind of for now. You know, like, I can go and fly to the shows in like, major cities that we want to see. Or, like, I have my own career. I've taken two kids on tour. Bus Tour, like three times, like, months of living on a bus. As just like, I'm gonna, like put out a shingle and start telling fortunes or something like, I I can't do this anymore. You've done the hard work. Laughing like, you've been less schlepping now because they're old. But the schlepping of the baby crap. Yeah, yes. It's like That's the worst part. Yeah, that's why I hate the beach. Yeah, there's so much stuff. There is so much stuff. Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, then like, you know, you've to date the car seat. The car Student Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much to consider last you are new mothers out there. That's something I don't miss. I'll tell you. Neither, but then, you know, I look at the baby pictures. And I go. I'm a monster. About these angels. Yeah. Look, I'll thank you so much for coming on. Julian. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. And you too, and we'd be happy to be in touch again. Oh, thank you. And just before you go, do you want to share is it you've got to your books coming out my book, Behold, the monster is coming out another thing next July. Um, and there is also a documentary called confronting a serial killer that's streaming on most major networks right now. That's about me. Like it's limited, you know, five one hour episodes directed by Joe burrow injure and it's just about my relationship with Sam and and solving some of the cases. And super excited for the book. I'll be around talking a lot about crime. And strangely enough, you know, even moms have interests beyond macaroni collages Yes. We were true crime fans. Um, we're just like this part is relaxing. Are you getting turned on the DOM or documentary? You know, my website, Julian lauren.com. You can find everything there. I'm on Instagram actually and Lauren I'm on Tik Tok. Don't even ask. They talked me into it. It's kind of fun. It's really fun. Yeah, I haven't gotten you don't you have to do this mom. Like you have to do this. Or you're just not anything. Get with the time. Not going anywhere. Mom's ticked off. Anyway, good. Just Julie and lauren.com. Everything's there and preorder the books. Great. Yay. Thank you so much, and all the best and yeah, I'd love to chat again one day and yeah, keep doing what you're doing and and say hi to Scott for me. Yes, and go see Weezer. It's great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

WOLF is a 5 track EP, a deep dive into the uncomfortable subject of post natal depression. The Wolf plays the role of the PND and I am akin to Little Red Riding Hood. I am taken over by the Wolf, consumed and destroyed. After the birth of my 1st child in 2008 I knew I was experiencing PND but never acknowledged it and never sought help. I was diagnosed after the fact. Fast forward 7 years later when I had my 2nd child, I experienced an incredibly traumatic birth, culminating in an emergency C section, which almost claimed my child's life and left me with PTSD. The Wolf really came to get me, and I suffered severe PND. This time I sought help and with that help from many health professionals, medication and family support. was able to recover over time. Each track covers a different element or experience in my journey of my PND. The tracks run chronologically, so listening to the EP from start to finish will tell the entire story, from first realising it was back to returning to a normal life. My production team was based in Spain and Argentina, with my vocals recorded at home in Mt Gambier. The songs are in the style of a dark pop, full of melodramatic sounds, using effects to create the scene and tell the story, and layered vocals and harmonies to add more drama. I am a big believer in talking about mental health and breaking the stigma that goes along with it. I recorded a podcast with local mental health help group Lifeboat SE , in April 2019, I am also proud to be a community ambassador for the group. I am so passionate about sharing stories of creative mothers and the intersection of creativity and the mothering role. I do so through my podcast The Art of Being a Mum , which has been out since June 2021. Things Are About To Get Dark THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET DARK 00:00 / 03:33 Re told from the moment I experience my first PND symptoms, it is a forboding moment of realisation, it is going to happen all over again. MUSIC VIDEO This track won the Australian Songwriters Association 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category "What a song! It stops you in your tracks! Nigel Loveday Eastern FM Melbourne Free Me FREE ME 00:00 / 03:08 My cry, in vain, to the Wolf to let me go, to free me, to free my soul and leave me. And I am left to wonder just how did this happen again, and realising that no one is in full control of themselves. Pieces of My Pain MUSIC VIDEO PIECES OF MY PAIN 00:00 / 03:30 I am at the cross roads - do I fight or allow the Wolf to completely take me over? Winner of the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize and National Finalist Ready for Up MUSIC VIDEO READY FOR UP 00:00 / 02:58 I am ready to celebrate the coming out of the fog, I am feeling more like myself, adjusting to life as a new mum. "This music has helped people." Bronte Ellis 5GTR Fm Feel into You FEEL INTO YOU 00:00 / 04:01 MUSIC VIDEO The final track, a song to celebrate the people that helped me through This trackmade the Top 100 in the 2024 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize "I feel like Alison is one of those artists that give pieces of herself in each song that she releases." RAG MAG RADIO 18 June ABC Sth East 00:00 / 30:15 30 June 5gtr FM 00:00 / 15:08 1 July 88.3 Southern FM 00:00 / 10:32 9 July Bayside FM 00:00 / 25:46 10 September 5gtr FM 00:00 / 12:13 8 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:52 29 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:10 PRINT MEDIA The Border Watch - 28/6/24 Limestone Coast Community News - 31/7/24 The Border Watch - 2/8/24 The Alternative Gig Guide - 14/8/24 Media Net - 30/8/24 RAG MAG - 27/10/24 PODCASTS The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 395 - 23/6/24 The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 405 - 8/11/24 Enquiries to Elena Di Fiore - Maestro Media PR/Publicist contactus@maestromedia.com.au +61 420 221 773

Rebecca Smith Australian content creator and brand ambassador S1 Ep20 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rebecca Smith is a brand ambassador and content creator from the Central Coast of NSW and a mum of twin boys. Rebecca has a background as a copy writer, writing for Mindful Parenting Magazine and freelance model , and started her personal blog @ThatAchellesGir l (pronounced: A-KILL-EES) on Instagram, which has since morphed into a boutique content creation service for small businesses, most of them being in the fashion industry. We chat about how becoming a mother lead to her current work role, the need for mums to be honest and ask for help and support when they need it, and why she is an advocate for sharing your mental health struggles and reaching out for support. ** This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety ** Rebecca's website and instagram Read more about Monti and Me toys Find out more about LifeBoat SE and Alison's podcast .Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo- https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle, mental health and how children manifest in there. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music play, and a link to buy the podcast on Instagram. All music used on the podcast is done so with the art of being a mom acknowledges the volunteer as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is reported on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with their lending, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thanks for your company today. My guest today is Rebecca. Rebecca is a brand ambassador and content creator from the Central Coast of New South Wales and a mom of two printing. Rebecca has a background as a copywriter, writing for magazines such as mindful parenting, and has worked as a freelance model. She started her personal blog, that Achilles girl on Instagram, which has since morphed into a boutique content creation service for small businesses, most of them being in the fashion industry. Today, we chat about how becoming a mother led to your current work role. The need for moms to be honest and ask for help and support when they need it. And why she's an advocate for sharing your mental health struggles and reaching out for support. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety. So today, I'd love to welcome Rebecca Smith to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on, Rebecca. Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to chat. So I've been following you on Instagram. That's where I first came across you on Instagram, at that Achilli scale is the name of your site. So is there a bit of a story how you came up with that Achilles girl? Is that like, is there a story that you're saying it probably that's so music to my ears? Yeah, so Achilles is my maiden name. So I started doing all the work that I've been doing years before I got married, obviously. And I just kept that Achilles girl, as my instagram name, for two reasons. One was I just wanted to continue, I didn't want to lose all the work that I'd done. So I figured if I changed my name to that Smith Bell, who's that I had to start all over again, with all the stuff that I'd written online for publications, like I'd have no Google anymore, like, you know, history. And also, I did go to checks I felt guilty about not when I got married, I did become Smith. I took my husband's last name, but then I felt guilty for not using it on social media or all that crap. And some of our friends would say, I use Smith or Achilles. So I did go and check is that Smith girl available and it was not so even if I wanted to change it. I couldn't have so I just kept going with that Achilles girl. Yeah, yeah, she's just my family name. Yeah. And it's a memorable name, too. Like that Achilles girl, like you sort of, you know, sticks in people's minds, too. It's a good, good. Well, yeah, yeah, I hope so. I don't know. It's more it just feels like it's me. Whereas that Smith girl is a new Smith is a new identity for me. It doesn't feel like me. So, yeah, that's where the name came from. Anyway. Yeah, for sure. So, on your Instagram, you sort of brand yourself as a content creator, a brand ambassador. You haven't been doing that forever. What did you sort of start off with? Yeah, so I started off with creative writing and copywriting so copywriting is like a form of advertising and marketing. You know, copywriters, they they write thing not everyone knows it's not anything to do with legal stuff. Like copyright law. It's actually a form of writing that encourages someone to buy a product or booking your service. So it's salesy. I mean, that's like, that you might hear on Yeah. Yachty Yes. Yeah, I did a little website copy. So I started my own business as a copywriter while I was working as a PA for like a criminal lawyer. So I did both jobs for a long time. And I loved copywriting and then basically, to summarize what happened, I got pregnant, and was I had really severe fatigue. So I couldn't really just do anything and couldn't make my brain work. I just decided to just throw in the towel and relax and enjoy being pregnant. So I stopped Everything for a couple of years. And then it wasn't till I came back. After giving birth and becoming a mother that I tried copywriting again, it still didn't really my brain was just not there. I couldn't get myself to write like I used to. And that's when I went into content creation. Yeah, right. So like social media. Yeah. It's interesting. You talk about that sort of brain fog. That's a big thing is when you're pregnant, it's like the baby's supposed to suck out. Part of your Yeah, you're cognitively, not only not only when I was pregnant, but then after I gave birth, it's still lingered with me and only lifted lack. When we started sleeping properly, again, and the boys, our boys didn't really start sleeping properly until they were two and a half. Yeah. So now I feel like I'm getting my brain back a little bit. But it's crazy how much sleep deprivation affects everything. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I remember when I had had my first and someone made a joke that remember, sleep deprivation is a form of torture. That's where all my problems started. Honestly, the sleep deprivation. decline from there on once once I realized we weren't sleep, like gonna get any more sleep so you have twin boys, yes, be full on job. They're very full on. So they're turning three next month. So they arrived like a couple days before Christmas. So they're almost three. In a lot of ways, it's easier now that they are toddlers, and they're speaking a little bit. They can get snacks for themselves, you know, I found the newborn stage really hard. So I'm really loving the toddler stage, actually. But they still Yeah, they're just really high energy, really high energy and want your attention all the time. So it's, I find it very difficult to sort of try to get any work done. If I'm home alone with them, I pretty much just have to give up on getting anything done, which I really struggled with for a long time. Yeah. So in a practical sense, how do you manage your day to day trying to achieve what you want to achieve with your worksite? Yeah, well, I just make sure that I save my work for the middle of the day, when I know they're going to have about a two hour sleep. I actually work first thing in the morning at like 5:36am for an hour while my husband is home, and I'll have a coffee and I'll be in bed doing whatever emails or something just for an hour and then I wait until midday and do some more two hour in the two hour window. That's just pretty much how I do it. I've got two jobs. So one I need to be out of the house. And I'm you know what I mean? I'm not actually it's not a freelance job. I work in the salon doing beauty services twice a week. So you know, that's easy. My kids are either at daycare or with my parents, so they're not there. But the other freelancing stuff like content creation with brands, it is pretty tricky to there's so many things I want to do and I have to remind myself to you know, go slow and also not ignore the kids make sure that I'm spending quality time with them and stuff like that. So for that it's mostly when my husband's home or when they're napping any little minute I get I just sort of Yeah, I work actually. Try not great. You do you do what works you do you do what works. You touched on briefly there. Sort of I guess the the shift in identity from being able to do the things how you wanted whenever you wanted and then you've got these two little children and how to sort of adjust your thinking I suppose of this new life that you had. Yeah, how did you sort of approach that that change in identity? Not very elegantly, I found it really, really difficult. And I think because we had the twins it was like even more of an adjustment like it's not just one baby that you need someone to help you look after it's two seni two adults I'm still I honestly to this day, I still struggle with trying to work it out. And this is my new life and I just have to like, you know, do both but I'm very adamant to make it work to do both. I got as in I don't think that I would be happy being a stay at home mom, because I often think to myself like Even last week when I get really anxious if I'm really busy, and I go along, and I think, look, you can stop anytime No one's forcing you to do all this work. But then I think, well, I don't want to be a stay at home mom, I like having projects I like I like, you know, having that side of my life. So it's just a matter of taking the anxious days when they come and trying to be patient with myself and moving my work to another day, if it's all just not working out. It's yeah, I still sort of, I still struggle with it today, basically. Okay, you're not the only one that's that's a really common theme that comes up in these chats is that, and mums, I think it's so important to not forget that mums are still an actual person, we're not just a mum that exists just for children. So yeah, a lot of mums talk about having something that they need for themselves to keep themselves you know, fill up your cup and make yourself feel really fulfilled and excited about doing something for yourself. And then that sort of thing, obviously, helps you then go on with the other part of your life. Feeling, you know, feeling good about yourself, I suppose. If that makes sense. We'll say yes. Say my mom always told me. She didn't make time for herself. She didn't insist that she wanted to return to work when me and my brother were toddlers, my dad and her had an arrangement that she would be a stay at home mom and just focus on us kids. And my mom said to me later, when I was going through all this with my kids, I said to I just can't Mom, I'm like, I feel bad that I can't be a stay at home mom, but I just can't. I want to do the things that I want to do. And she said, You know, I support you because I really wish I'd done that. And that was really, I think she probably doesn't even remember that she said it to me. But it was it. I remembered it. And it was really special. That she did say that to me. And it made me feel better. And I thought it's not weird that I it's not weird that I want these things. And I you know, because I thought is am I Does anyone else feel like this? Like I no one just sort of bounce off because a lot of my friends were not having babies at the time. So I had to make new friends. Yeah. And then I learned that it was normal. But you know, in the beginning, I was just like, wow, what is this? Yeah, that's the thing. No one sort of sets you up in, you know, you do your prenatal class, and you learn all about baby stuff. But you never know and actually says to you, this is what you'll do. And this is normal. And you know, yeah, yes. You mentioned you, Mama, do you have people close by you to be able to help with the boys so that you can, you know, have some time to yourself? Yes, I do. I literally have my entire family helping me and my husband. And we're so lucky. I've got his parents that help every week, my parents and then my husband also is he's really good with the boys. He's super patient. He's like a swim teacher. So he, he's around kids all day, every day, you know what I mean? So it was less of a shock for him than me was never around children. So he's patient and he knows what to do when they tantrum and scream and he's just great. And he always wants to help me. You know, he does things he would get up in the night and bottle feed one twin while I said the other one, you know, when he still had to go to work the next day and stuff and didn't complain about it. So everyone helps me. Really lucky. That's yeah, that is so good. Yeah, yeah. I have a couple of friends who are like from the UK and they just have no family here. And no help. And I just think Well, I don't know how they do it. Yeah, honestly, I I'm the same as you. I've got my family. Sort of Yeah, you do. And I yeah, my mum. She moved from Melbourne to Matt Gambia. We're in this little town halfway between Adelaide, Melbourne. She moved over here, and had no one knew nobody apart from my dad, and then had these two children as a How the hell did you do that? Yeah, I take it for granted, I think because they're here that they're always able to help. But I think my goodness, you know, I take my hat off to people that that don't have help. Because that's, you know, yeah, it's important for the kids too, though. Like they it's nice for them to grow up with. You know, it helps you as the mom but it's nice for them to have, you know, other people around as well that they know, love them and are there for them. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a big it's a big commitment to help with grandkids and things I guess for some people but it's also a pleasure. So on both sides. Oh yeah. And it's interesting to see to see your own parents in this completely different relationship with the child. Totally. I don't even it funny. Yeah, treat like my dad especially. It's like who is this man? He's not. He wouldn't talk to me like that. Like he's just this different. Yeah, until the soft side comes out. Yeah, I mean saying that my dad always says I he's never changed and happy of me and my brother I don't think and then he will not change my son's either. I think he would get a hose out if he had to do anything when my mom wasn't there he's just hopeless with vomiting poo anything like that? Runny nose. least he knows his limitations. And you know he's prepared. Yeah. And with it. Do you agree entertainer? Switching back to the identity topic we were talking about when you were pregnant? Did you sort of have that in your mind? Like you were thinking at all? How life was going to change? Like Were you conscious of? I mean, I guess no one prepares you when it's different when the babies come out. But did you sort of start to think anything about you know what, how your life would be, or I totally pictured one thing. And I we decided to serve as my partner like 10 years. We got married when we were six or seven years into dating or something. And so it wasn't until we were married that I thought okay, yeah, I think we, I think I'd like to have a baby. And then so I pictured One thing, though. And then when I found out it was twins, it was like, all the anxiety kicked in. Because I felt like, well hang on. What does that mean? To me returning to work can I return to I won't be able to return to work, you know. And then you have all the stress about how's my how's my body going to change with two it was I felt great with one baby and I was happy with being pregnant. But then once I found out it was twins, it did really slow me and I had to really adjust to getting excited about it and not being too anxious. So I'm very lucky that I had twins and I think that now and I love their bond and I love being twin moms. But I didn't. You know I didn't initially I really I feel bad that I think that but I really was upset and I was really anxious. I had pretty bad anxiety when I was pregnant. Actually, once I found out. Look, that's understandable. I'd be exactly the same. So we've got we've got twin, my husband's family's got twins. His dad's okay. And then his brother had twins. So I was like, Oh, sweetie, but Yeah, same thing. Of course. In the end, I would have been, you know, delighted to have my children. But if Yeah, you have that that is that anxiety like, oh my gosh, like, I guess you're thinking how am I going to manage? You know, what's it going to be like? Double the work? And of course already, how's your body going to, you know, manage having two babies? Like it's huge. Yeah. It Yeah, it Yeah, it was really I had to get used to it. But I remember when we were having the scanned on the eight week mark and she said that there's two heartbeats. I like was trying really hard to not cry because I was so upset and my husband was like laughing and clapping his hands and he was so excited. And I was just thinking like, Oh, what are you excited about? But at the same time, I thought maybe this is okay. Because he's excited it would have been terrible if he was you know, reacting like I was so I'm very glad looking back that he was very positive about it. Because I was freaking out. Oh, my goodness. Talking about body and you do like modeling with for your brand work that you do now? Is that right? I do now? Yeah, I do now, but that's a new thing. I guess when I was a teen like 16. I did model and I was with an agency and I modeled for a few years. But I left the industry because I was very, I had really bad shyness and I wasn't very confident. My mom suggested I try modeling and sort of put me out there and I did work but I would just be so anxious and I did not like it if I left and I've only sort of found that confidence. Now that I'm like, nearly 30, so I'm happy to do it, but I'm only doing it on my own terms. So I don't I you know, I work with a photographer who is my contact and I know him and we work together for brands and I pick what I do. I don't do swimwear, I don't do laundry. You know what I mean? I do things that I find fun and they're gonna make me stressy or, yeah, that are not too out of my comfort zone. Yeah, for sure. The concept of mum guilt is something that I love to talk to my guests about too, is this whole idea. And, and it does tie in a fair bit with identity. But yeah, how do you feel about this? This mum guilt term and how it makes us feel, I suppose. Yes. I actually, I wrote an article on this. I used to write for mindful parenting magazine, you know, love at love. It's media. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No. And I wrote an article about having mum guilt, but doing something anyway, that I had to guilt about. And it was basically you know, I, to answer your question, I do experience it all the time. And this particular time, our twins were teething, and they were just waking every hour overnight, and we had not slept for, I think, like, two weeks straight. And I was just like, on the verge of break down like I was, you know what I mean? You know, when you're so tired, it's just like, I can't do anything anymore. I need to just go. So I said to my husband, like, this is how I'm feeling he knew I had postnatal depression and anxiety at the time. So he was very supportive with helping me. And I know that he would have been exhausted too. And I had to just say to him, like, I know that you're tired. And I'm sorry to ask, but I need to just go sleep somewhere else for just one night. And I said, when I get back, you can go and do the same thing. But can I just go and I need to go now. And he was just like, yep. And so yeah, I wrote this article. It was, it was funny, though, like, I tried to make a lot hot, like, you know, a lot of it and I ordered a pizza and I had a bath and put my feet up and ate pizza in the bath. At this Airbnb that I stayed at, like, only 10 minutes away from our house. And just sort of in trying to encourage other mums to ask for help if you are experiencing something like that, and not feel guilty about it, but everyone does. So it's it's a constant thing. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I think that the thing you say about how you feel it, but you do it anyway, I think that's really important. Because we are allowed to feel emotions, you're allowed to feel we are allowed to feel guilt. But yeah, unless it's something, you know, really bad. Why should we let that stop you from doing so if it's something like I feel bad about working and not being at home with my kids, or I feel bad about going and having a night away? Because I'm so sleep deprived? It's like, you've got to tell yourself, yes, but doing that? Well, I knew at the time, I'm going to come back as a better mother to be able to focus on my kids, if I can have a night off or, for me, I'm like, I'd be way happier way, way more present parent, if I can have my two, three days a week working. And, you know, focus on new kids the other days. So you know, things like that. You just got to have a little pep talk with yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And if it is really bad, you wouldn't do it anyway. Because you know that that maternal instinct is so strong, you know? Exactly, you know, it's not that bad drive down to the bottle shop and get a bottle of wine. Come back, you know, I like stuff like that and you said, as well about encouraging other moms to be able to be honest and open and ask for help. I think that's something that we don't do enough of because, I mean, I know I do. And I'm not sure if this is because I'm overthinker I'm a cancer so I tend to anticipate what other husbands are cancer. Oh, I love kids. Yeah, we're good. We're good sometimes when we're not being moody. Scorpio I'm apparently moody all the time, too. Yeah, right. I know. Everyone says that qualities too. My downfall is I tend to anticipate or make up a story in my mind, of, of what the other person's thinking. So instead of just I Once again, I'll go through this great big thing. Oh, they should know. You know, just Oh, yeah. Instead of just saying, Hey, can you put the kids to bed tonight? Because I really needed an early night, you know, as we would go, Yeah, no worries. And be like, yes. Why did I turn that into such a great thing? You know, we had so many of those arguments. So my husband said to me, I'm not a mind reader. Can you please tell me? Tell me this? Oh, tell me that. And I'd say you should know. And he'd be like, No, but like, I don't I'm sorry, but I don't. So can you just tell me next time? And I was like, office groundbreaking to me, like, ask I mean, sorry to tell you exactly what I'm thinking or I want and I was like, Oh, I can do that. Okay. Yeah. Like I just hadn't. I'd be sitting there like rooting like, oh, like Khan hate. I don't know, whatever it was at the time. Everything's a big deal when you got a newborn and you're tired? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's groundbreaking, isn't it? You can actually open your mouth and ask. I know, that's how I feel. Right? I just, I don't naturally do that. You know, I learned I'm learning to sort of do that more. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a that's a woman thing. I think. I mean, I'm not speaking. I think so too. It's like, you feel like you should be able to do everything you should, you know, you're the mom, you should have everything under control. And you should be able to do it, but and then to ask for help is some sort of sign of weakness. So you don't you just suffer through and get all shitty and, you know, yell at everyone and just keep doing it funny because my mom does the exact same thing with my dad, and my mom will complain to me about this, that or whatever. Every now and then. And I will sit there thinking like, actually say to her now I just, you just got to speak your mind more Mom, you've got to tell him if you don't want there. So you don't want that? Or, you know, and she's just like, oh, yeah, she does exactly what I do. Yeah, it's interesting. Maybe this this generation of arrows because we've, we've seen our moms, perhaps be that final generation that doesn't speak their mind doesn't speak up. Maybe. I mean, I'm generalizing again. I know every relationship is different. But you know, the women that that may be, you know, got told that you meant to be a good wife, and you do the right things. You look after the kids and look after your husband, and then you keep everything happy. And an on the live. Yeah, you don't ever question before like 1950s housewife? Yeah, yeah. So maybe, because we're starting to break the mold that will help, you know, the generations coming after us? Well, we're seeing like, we're seeing the aftermath. Okay, that this is what it looks like he is on after you've done what our mothers have done and sort of just, you know, make everything look nice. And just make it comfortable for this, that and the other but not yourself. And yeah, maybe yeah, I don't know. The instead of sacrificing yourself for everyone else's happiness. You're actually Yeah, our lab to say, hey, come and do something. But we have social media too. So like, everyone's screaming about this on social media, and I think other women are reading and watching on going, oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't have social media back then. And wouldn't have known what other women was thinking. Because now we, we we do wherever and so much more connected through that. Absolutely. I mean, that can go both ways to being a positive and, and a drawback. I think, too, and especially with this mum view, I think a lot of the judgment that we place on each other, can manifest itself in that social media, because you're sharing so much of your life. And people are going, oh, oh, she's gone and done this again. Well, who's looking after the kids, you know, or someone might look at and go, oh, good for her. She's gone. And done this again. You know? Yeah, because we say that. Funny you say that? Because I was where was I was somewhere a couple weeks ago with family and some friends were there as well. And we're all having drinks. And they'd had these particular friends and had a few more drinks. And I'd had and so they one of them made a comment, like, I'm talking about how often I make reels on Instagram, and I'm showing up on social media. And like, so how do you, you know, how do you get that? How do you get that done? I remember thinking like, oh my gosh, I thought you were my friend. And really, people are watching what I'm doing and sort of thinking, you must not be a very good mother because you're just, you know, making reels all the time. And you're always on social media. And I'm like, Well, it's my job now. So yeah, I'm sure if you're getting paid to do reels and do you know, show up every day on social media. I'm sure you, you do it too. That's my job. Yeah, but your job is, you know, Office admin or whatever it is you're doing or work In a cafe making coffee like this is my job. Yeah. And I don't know shows that that judgment people, people will make make assumptions about people without actually knowing. You know everything. Yeah. Particularly when you're a mom. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and yeah, you get a tiny glimpse into someone's life through social media and then that can, you can No, no, build a whole idea in your head about what this person's life is like, without knowing anything. So, yeah, that side of things I find interesting. Yes. Certainly the positives, you know, sharing, sharing things like this, you know, when, you know, the topic about, you know, asking for help, you know, if enough people talk about it, it builds on itself. And, you know, people can share, share that just just an example, I suppose, you know, a positive of this social network, I suppose. I like several mum mums sort of personalities on Instagram, who do talk candidly about being a mum and, and nothing, you know, it's not all rosy. And, you know, that makes it like that. It's more relatable. It's not the fake, like, beautiful selfies with your child in a beautiful seat outfit. You know what I mean? Like, oh, yeah, I don't know, I just surround my page with people that I want to follow. I'm very big on, there might be a feed that's really curated and beautiful. But if they sort of aren't being real, and I won't follow them, and I try my best to be real online as well. Yeah. Yeah. Being genuine. goes a long way, I think. And you're actually building a connection, then you're not just, you know, yes. Putting up a shiny pretty trying to model or sell something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think yeah, in this day and age people, people will buy or connect with people who they have some sort of relationship, they feel something about someone. Totally, whereas, you know, my dad would go to the person with the best price. So you know, that sort of thing. But I think now so with my dad. Yeah. Yeah, different. Yeah. So that's Yeah, that's really interesting. I want to link that into, I guess, your the work that you're doing. So do you sort of do you kind of vet the people you're going to work with to make sure they're, they're the right fit for you. You're there. Does that make sense afterwards? I do. Yeah, I do. Yeah. 100%, I have had a couple of people who I feel just maybe when I was new I and my prices were quite reasonable. I feel like they were just trying to squeeze every, you know, worth, you know, every cent worth out of me and want a million things in return demanding. And you can sort of, you can sort of see now pick and choose who you want to work with, on their vibe, because we have like zoom meetings with businesses before we start working with them to ask what they want. And so you can it's like a half an hour chat, but you can sort of see what kind of person they are through that chat. And I also like to I don't like to work for like fast fashion brands, I prefer to work for designers who have actually, you know, Australian designers who put their heart and soul into the designs and like this one I'm wearing, you know, that's a local designer, and she designs all of these herself in Australia, and it's her brand. So I do pick and choose things like sustainable and ethical fashion brands. Australian, I prioritize as well, just because I want to support Aziz. Yeah, so yeah, I do. I do pick and choose. And I also don't have heaps of time. I only can work part time. So naturally, I do pick and choose who or who I take on. Yeah, even not being that big or that busy right now. I still have the opportunity to pick and choose so I do. Yeah, now that's good. I mean, you're picking the people that align with your own belief so yeah, I'm not trying not to be a bitch about it. I just I do I pick people who align with what I'm doing and yeah, I'm not gonna go work for a fast fashion brand whose stuff comes from China and just has you know, this just imported from them. They're not you know, yeah. Yeah, there's no carpet so it's not Yeah, it's it's that connection thing again, isn't it? It's like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So sorry, I'm just gonna I'm skipping back again. We were getting through it but we're doing it in really? Your mind what what? You just you do you and I'll just answer whatever you want. Oh, good. No pressure. No. Good. I wanted to go back to when we talked much early hear about the support that you had. And you mentioned that you had you don't you didn't have any friends who were at the same sort of time in their life having babies at the same time when you did. And you sent us the words, I had to find new friends. Yeah. How was that? Like? I mean, you you expressed that you had postnatal depression and anxiety was that? Was that really a challenging? Sorry, I don't want to bring up things. If you're not, you know, I want to make you make you feel sad. Like, I'm not gonna say to you that I don't already write about us say to other people. So like, I don't care. Look, I did have friends who had babies, but they weren't close friends that I had, like, everyday contact with him feel like they were close friends that I could talk to them about how I was feeling. But also I didn't, I didn't know anyone that had had twins. And most, most women and most of my friends were really excited had a joyful pregnancy. Positive positive, you know, and I just didn't really I was careful with who I spoke to. Because I didn't feel like that for most of the pregnancy. Yeah. But what I did do is join a facebook group for moms that moms of multiples and parents of multiples. And so I got my feel from that, to be honest, rather than you know, and to maybe real life best friends who's who I've known forever. And were there for me with whatever I was feeling. So I did have them with my husband, my family. But yeah, I also use these online groups to sort of see how other mothers were feeling. And they were all very honest. So I realized it was normal and okay to be feeling anxious. Yeah, that's very important, isn't it? Because you'd be, you'd sort of be really questioning each question yourself to start with, but then you'd be like, Oh, hang on a second. Everyone else around me is all happy. Is this okay? You know, like we touched on earlier, like, yeah, no, that's really good. That's great. So another good social media positive connecting? Yeah, it's very important to me at that time, and I still check in on it every now and then, you know, like googling how to toddler had toilet trained toddlers, and it's like, oh, that group will know. They'll have some tips. I just, you know, yeah. That's it. Because it's not just that, you know, baby, the baby part. But then as they grow up, it's like, you're gonna have these different questions. Other things? Yes. Do you put twins in the same class at school? Like, you know, little things like that. When you go to a birthday party with your twins? Do you take two presents or one? Like silly little things, but it's nice to have somewhere that you can look? Yeah, slowly? That's so true. Yeah. Do you work with any, like children's brands? Like, are you drawn to doing things with children? Because you know, you've got your children? Yes. So like, basically, I got the job that I got working for that magazine for the parenting mag, the parenting magazine, I got that job because I was a mom, and I wouldn't have otherwise gone for it, or probably even been considered. So that was the first thing that sort of changed. I wanted to find a way to keep writing and blogging because like, I'd write articles and blogs, right. And so that was a way for me to continue writing, but still, in this new part of my life, and now with content creation, and working for brands and things. There has been several baby boutiques who have reached out and so I will incorporate the boys into photos and videos. I prefer to do toys. So there's one brand Mantine me and they have like, Montessori type. What's it called interactive toys and educational toys, and activities you can do so that's fun. And I enjoyed filming stuff like that, because I get to play with the kids with the activities and the tripods just holding my phone recording stuff. And then I edit it later. You know, I like that. Yeah, other than the fashion stuff, that's me. I'm not sure like, I love doing it. So it's so it's so cute, but it's harder. I prefer to do the playing activity things with them. And then I'm sort of doing stuff with them as well. That's it's a spontaneous, spontaneous reaction to like, they're going to be asked about the toy so much, and I have all those videos as as the boys grow up, and I have all those videos now. Like, it's like memories that I'm recording as well, to me. It's not just about work, and I get paid for that. And this and that, you know, I like having those memories that I'm sort of recording to Yeah, that's that's such a good point is that look, that's very cool. Well, yeah, I just thought about it the other day when I was on my phone, just you know, scrolling through stuff, and I was like, Oh, I remember that. Caleb and I remember this and that and it's nice to have those in my phone. You know that you otherwise probably wouldn't make the time to like, do Oh, yeah, that's, that's so true I like parents and working mothers following me. And I like connecting with them on Instagram as much as they don't have brands. So maybe I can't create content for them. I like having them in my feed and reading about their motherhood journey. And I hope that they like reading about mine. So I do try to like 30% of the time talk about motherhood and kids stuff on my Instagram, and then you know, 50%, I talk about work stuff and whatever else, but I like to sort of keep that open as a pillar or whatever you want to say, for my social media stuff. So yeah, well, you know, I actually predominantly work with fashion brands with the content creation business that I have. You know, handbags, clothes, even baby products, they'll send me stuff, and I'll photograph it or make reels, whatever they ask of me. So while that doesn't necessarily matter, to some mothers who are listening to this, yeah, I do like to talk very openly about being a mom and working while being a mom. And also I'm honest about trying to overcome, you know, postnatal depression and anxiety and have medication for it. And I'm very pro, like, if you need to have medication and you feel the same. That's okay. You know, things like that. Yeah, there's people, a lot of people have said to me, why weren't you nervous about starting medication and not being able to come off it? Or some people actually said, like, I heard that any depressants can make you like, put on heaps of weight. So I don't want to and, you know, I just sort of had all those kinds of conversations with people and what what medication do you take because all the ones I taught made me feel sick. And so I like to just sort of be encouraging with that stuff, too. Yeah. Without saying too much. Because I know it's not spoken about a lot either. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I have had quite bad personal repression. And I take Feistel take my own. Now, am I Yeah, six now, but honestly, I, my daughter in a pandemic at the moment to like, seriously, but that's the thing. Like, I think people are scared of medication. And I know it's not for everybody. Yeah, that's fine. But I don't, yeah. I'm not scared people knowing that I take medication, because I think that helps to normalize the stigma around mental illness and, and how to work through it's like a tool to help you get through. Yeah, so but some people also describe how they feel to me, I think, because they know that I have experienced it, maybe. And I can see from what they described to me that they it's quite alarming, like they're quite anxious, or they are feeling really low. And it's like, wouldn't you rather just feel better? And if you have to have some medication temporarily. Why don't you just try it like? Yeah, it's a tough one. It is. Yeah, yeah. Because that's thing you don't know. Who in their life is maybe giving them their own opinion? You know, like people? Yeah, you may be someone's going on. You don't need that. Yeah, right. Oh, I had that. Yeah, I ended up just not saying anything to anyone and going to the doctor and getting it myself and taking it and seeing then I'd started to tell family afterwards after I was already on it, so that they couldn't try and talk me out of it again. But yeah, I just think it's Yeah, important to talk about normalize, like you said, not not be judgmental, if other people want to have medication or need it, and be encouraging about, it's okay, if you do need it, you know, things like that. Yeah, absolutely. I think we'd be in a lot better place as in as, as a society if we were just so much more open and accepting of other people's, you know, issues and problems and just being supportive of people is even, even my dad like I, I work with a, there's a local group there called lifeboat and it's basically they gathered up a lot of sort of people in the community that people recognize, like, not fake, I want to say famous, but you know, we're a small town. Most people know everyone. So they gathered up a heap of people and said, Let's do some podcasts to talk about your experience with mental health. And, and my dad said, Are you sure you want people to know what happened to you? And I said, Yes, that's why I'm doing it because I want people to know that average, ordinary everyday people, everybody has issues, you know, and yeah, don't be scared to talk about because there are people out there to help you. And you'll get you'll get the support you need. You know, instead of just being scared of what people think of you, so that said that I reckon that's the generational difference, because my parents are very private like that, too. And they, I don't know how they feel about what I say, and things like that. But I think it's courageous to just be brave and just say how you're feeling. I mean, doesn't help anyone just doing what maybe our parents think we should do? Which is just, you know, suffer in silence Be quiet. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Another way we can sort of help. The shift in the thinking, I think moving forward on new cost sharing. Yeah. Thank you. And you too. Yeah. Nah, thanks. So it is it is good. I mean, it's hard, but it's good. You know, after that, after I did that podcast, I got so many messages from people just saying, yeah, thank you for sharing that. I this is what makes it worth it, you know, and that that was the That's what I said to the host. I said, you know, if if one person gets something out of this, it's been in here, you had people message him saying, you know, my wife had this. This was like, 60 year olds, right, saying my wife had this, but nobody knew what it was. We didn't know what to do with it. You know, this, this, this whole shift that's happening in caring for for mental unwellness you know, it's just amazing. So yeah, I was really pleased that they asked me to do this. I really Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but that's the thing, the more we can talk the better. Absolutely. I agree. Yeah. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge dwellers Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge. We've been had it. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate, and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Alison Newman, Emma Anderson and Emma's husband John Anderson make up the trio Alemjo. T hey create new age / meditation/relaxation music. Alemjo was born in early 2015 when they were approached to create a live musical experience for a meditation class. Their debut album Music for Meditation was released in August 2015. This album was created to accompany a chakra themed Yoga class, and they have performed it live twice since the launch. John plays and produces the layered instrumental sounds through the use of guitars, keyboard and effects. Emma and Alison bring their gentle and intuitive vocals, together with percussive instruments and Tibetan singing bowls. Alison and Emma have been singing together with whole lives and have relished the unique creative process that this project has brought them. John has been creating and playing music since his teens and enjoys a range of music from relaxation to extreme metal. The Alemjo project shows the endless bounds of his creativity.

Hello artistic/creative mum!! Thank you so much for agreeing to be a guest on the podcast. I cant wait to meet you and chat. Here are the general talking points for each episode. As my chats are quite organic, we may not end up talking about every one of these, and some may not apply to you or your art form. Most of these topics will come up just while we are chatting and I will ask specific questions when needed. Of course I am more than happy to chat about your own business and any other topics you wish. Artist Info Tell us about yourself, your art form, what you create, style, mediums you use. I am really interested to get to you as an artist, before we start talking about your children. How did you get started, influences, why this artform, were you a creative child, what sparked your interest, any study you have done in art etc. Family info Tell us about your family, children, ages, (names are optional) Share as much or as little as you wish. Day to day What does your art life look like today? Hours you are able to spend, challenges, pros and cons How do you juggle it all? How do your children fit into this? Any tips you can share or things you wish you had known? Did you need to find new ways to work so you could continue creating? Support Do you/did you have others in your art circle that have had this experience? Do you or have you had role models about how to juggle creating art and the demands of parenthood? Do you/did you have a support network around you? How did that/does that affect your work/art/creativity? Being a mum Did having a child/becoming a mother influence or inform your work? This one is not about the day to day logistics, more about the emotions that came up that might have manifested in your work "Mum guilt" Do you believe in the concept of "mum guilt"? a) when it comes to your art and b) general life. Do you feel differently about mum guilt depending on what you are doing? eg art or normal life? Yes/No/Why? Discuss - this is one of my favourite topics What triggers your mum guilt? (if you feel it) Identity How did the concept of your own identity change when you became a mum? Is it important to you to be "more than a mother"? eg - you are also your own person, artist, wife, daughter etc If so, how do you give yourself time and space to do/feel this this? What are your thoughts around this? Is it important to you to continue your art/own interests? Is it important to you that your children see that you do more than just the mothering role? Value of your art/creativity We're not talking about the monetary value of your work here, but the importance you place on your creating. If you don't bring money into your household with your creative work, does that diminish the value of it in your eyes? How do you feel about how society sees the value of (mother) artists contributions? Cultural Norms When you were growing up, what sort of a mother was your own mother expected to be? Did society expect her to focus only on her family and home roles? How did that effect you as a child and then growing up and how you approached your own parenting? I'm in Australia so Im really interested in how other cultures have expereienced this. Anything else An opportunity for you to share anything additional t hat is important to you, or to promote yourself. Future What projects are you working on or have coming up? Where can people find you online? Social etc Other notes You can be as honest as you want on my podcast, swearing is okay too. If any conversations arise that may trigger others I will put a warning on the episode. Conversely, you don’t have to be honest, please don’t feel that you have to share anything that you don’t feel comfortable sharing. You will have approx 3-4 days before I finalise editing of your episode. If you recall anything that you would like removed please let me know before this time and I will be happy to do so. Before chatting, if you have any topics that are definitely off limits, please let me know and I will be happy to oblige Please allow 1.5 to 2 hours to record. It might not take that long, but just in case! I like to chat ;) You don't need any fancy recording gear, just a webcam and its built in mic is enough. You can use headphones if you wish. If you do have fancy gear, that's awesome! I take snippets of video to make short promo vides. If you would prefer me not to do this for your episode please let me know. Feeling nervous is natural, just approach it like we are having a nice relaxed chat - because that is exactly what we are doing :) Although not a topic I ask guests directly about, the subject of mental health comes up more often than not. If you feel comfortable talking about your experience please do so. I have had my own personal experience with post natal depression and anxiety, and feel comfortable talking about the subject, PLEASE SEND ME - promo photos that I can share. This can be of you, an example of your work, your family/children, anything that you would like to represent you. Any number from 1-5 is great, and at least one that shows your face is awesome. a list of the materials/ equipment you use in your practice. I like to compile a list and provide links for listens to purchase or research further if they wish. an artistic bio, any special awards or upcoming events you would like mentioned in your show notes. You can send these before or after your episode is recorded. SOCIAL MEDIA Your episode will go live on a Friday. Leading up to this I will post the following on my instagram and facebook accounts: Wednesday - Introduction using supplied photo + audio Thursday - Quote tile Friday - Out Now image tile / audio Sunday - Reel - supplied photos + audio Tuesday - Quote tile for examples of these check out my instag ram I will tag you in each, feel free to share or repost on your socials, it certainly helps to spread the word to new listene rs. I will also make a short video using raw footage from our recorded interview, to share with exclusive content subscibers on my email list. (if you dont want this please let me know) You will also have a dedicated landing page for your episode, which is a great place to direct listeners to, if you would like this link for your website or socials please let me know, or you can extrapolate it here: eg www.alisonnewman.net/podcast-eps/ firstname-lastname From time to time I post previous guests’ quotes so you may notice yourself pop up again months down the track. I enjoy taking relevant quotes and sharing them around a theme on my socials. FOR MUSICIANS I break the interview into ‘chapters’ separated by a short 10-15 seconds music grab. I have an APRA AMCOS licence to use copy righted music on the podcast. If you are happy for me to use yours please send me the links where I can purchase or download. If you know of anyone who would like to be a guest on the show, please let me know. I love chatting to mums I have never met, from all creative backgrounds and from all around the world. Thank you for being involved in my podcast, I can’t wait to chat. If you have any queries or questions please let me know, I want you to feel comfortable and happy with your involvement. Alison x alsone765@gmail.com www.alisonnewman.net 0422 458 336 Take a listen to the podcast here

Jade Thompson Australian crochetter and designer S1 Ep11 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Jade Thompson AKA The Crotchet Mama from Mt Gambier, South Australia. She is a mum of 2 girls. Jade has been a creator her whole life in many different ways, inspired by the women around her. She has come into her own over the past year, creating and sharing her crochet animals and creations, and has been blown away by the popularity of them. We chat about how she identifies a feminist stay-at-home mum, finding a Doctor who will listen to your mental health concerns and setting boundaries around your self care and creative needs. **This episode contains discussions/mentions of OCD, post-natal anxiety, an abusive relationship and anxiety.** Connect with Jade here - https://www.instagram.com/the.crochet.mama/ Find Jade's work featured in online Christmas magazine here Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies.. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Jade Thompson, aka the crochet mama Jade is from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two girls. Today we chatted about how she identifies as a feminist stay at home mom, finding a doctor who will listen to your mental health concerns and setting boundaries around your self care and creative needs. This episode contains discussions and mentions of OCD, postnatal anxiety, abusive relationships and anxiety. Welcome Jade, it's lovely to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me. I follow you on Instagram, the crochet mama, which I think is a really cute name. Tell us about what you do and how you got into it. I make little crochet animals I got into it are probably about eight or nine years ago, my eldest didn't like sleeping ever. So there was a lot of late nights up on Pinterest, just trying to keep myself awake. And yeah, I came across these little animals, I thought, well, I'm so cute. And then I sort of thought, oh, actually, my mom knows how to crochet maybe I can learn and do that. I like the, like 20 different, you know, like, I don't like this whole, traditional, you know, like the 70s type crochet and all that. Like I wanted something that was modern and fun. And it just sort of, I just love making them in the position sort of grew to a point where my kids had too many toys. And a few people said you should sell these and I'm like, I don't think people are gonna want to buy them like, but they did. And here we are. Yeah. So yeah, when you say that sort of crochet, previous eras, you'd sort of think of Nana's making doilies, or you know, that kind of stuff. Occasionally, those crocheting pants and ties and you're like, ah, what is that? Definitely none of that happening at the crochet right. Tell us about your children. You mentioned your eldest that didn't sleep. Tell us about your kids. Yeah, I've got two girls. They are nine about to turn 10 and four turning five at the end of the year. Yeah, they're both. They're great. I've been at home with them since I had my oldest, which has been to be really cool. Yeah. And they're both at school and kindy. And gives me just a little bit of time to try and, you know, get the house clean for a minute before I come home and trash it. My toys and catch my breath for a minute. But yeah. You said that you started when your eldest was not sleeping about that period. What what did you use it as sort of a way to cope? Or was it purely something to just entertain you looking at your phone while they were sleeping? I guess it was. She just she always had to be on me. So I'd get asleep but I couldn't put it down because she'd wake up again. So just sort of sitting up trying not to move. So yeah, initially when I started it was just because I just wanted to make things for her. I had all these ideas of things that looked so cute, and I thought she would love them. Yeah, it was for her really and then through doing it I found that it helped me with all my thoughts and calming things and I just really enjoyed it like it was always there for me to pick up. It never changed it was always the same and I could just make these things and have a minute of just creating something I've always loved creating things and it's something I just love to do. Yeah, almost here before you got into crochet what others ways of creating were you doing? Well, ever since I was a little kid actually I can remember back as far as when I was little I was always into just pushing things up. I guess like I I would my bedroom was like this highly decorated thing. I mean, obviously kids don't have money. So you make, do you make something new? I would. I went through a stage I remember when I was a little girl, I would cut out little pictures in magazines that I loved and stick them all over boxes and containers and use them to store my craft stuff in I would paint everything like, yeah, and then close it. I do. I've always loved drawing, sketching bit of painting. There was a time when I was maybe a teenager, I sort of always had to create. And then when I was a teenager, I ended up in a abusive relationship. And that sort of, I didn't create for such a long time. there because I guess, anytime I did something like that it was tucked down onto so I sort of stopped doing that. Which Yeah, I'm not if I can't create on your need to be able to create, it makes me happy. And then after that, when I live by myself for a while, I got back into painting a bit and just doing my own plates. That was just mine. But I didn't really share with people because I thought that people think that that was stupid or not like it used to be not a positive thing. So then it wasn't really until I got together with my husband. And he just liked me for who I was whether I was a giant nerd or anything like that. He just like me. And his mom is like this person who she can quilt, she can make clothes, she can knit, she can crochet she can paint, she does everything. And I would go to their house and there's this obvious craft I was like, like, and then that sort of started me off again. I got into scrapbooking for a little while and I do my wedding album. And bit more painting and sketching then, yeah, and then I ended up with I did sewing, I bought a sewing machine and I've made lots of things and made some clothes and baby stuff. And then it went into crochet and always need to be using my hands kids enjoy seeing you do it. Oh, yeah, they love it. They always saying what are you up to? And can I see the face and that will help me my eldest is really good with helping me out colors. And sometimes like, I'll be like I said, my husband, I should have puppies, but here or here and he will look at me like, What are you asking me for? I'm useless at this stuff. But my eldest she's really although both are really quite arty kids. And they'll say, oh, no, mom that should play like this. Okay, all right. And yeah. Yeah, my pattern books, they go through them because I make them some every year for birthdays and Christmas and stuff. And it's a big exciting thing to get my pattern books down and to go through and pick them out. There's little loan, like post it note cans in there saying I want this one. This one's for my birthday. This one's for Christmas. And that's beautiful. So you've like created this tradition, I suppose. It's like, when I was a kid, we'd look through the woman's weekly cake each year to see what it's like a similar thing to each year. And you know, it's actually going to turn out good. Where's the cake? Cake stressing me out. I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's never gonna look like this. What am I doing? So really, you created your whole life, it's almost like you needed to feel the confidence to share with others. I suppose. I started posting it. I don't really do Facebook, it stresses me out. But I mainly go on Instagram. So I would put up little things that aren't made on my private page and people say, Oh, this is really cool. And I'm like, Oh, thanks, but I'm sure you're just saying it to be nice, you know? And then I had a few people say, oh, you should sell these. I'm like, no one's gonna buy this. Like, you know, it's just what people say to people. I was surprised that people liked them as much as they do. You know, honestly A lot my mommy's always say I was like, Chris, highly sensitive person, that sort of thing. So I like creating and things like that has always been, like making my space comfortable. And like the OCD and all that. And I guess how I just switches me off. Because I did find, like my mental health, I was always not great when I was a kid. Like the anxiety and the worries and all that, but it did get better for a while. And then something I just remember when I was pregnant with my eldest, something, I could feel this. Like this shift, like something just wasn't right. And I was just so anxious all the time, I was terrified that something was wrong with the pregnancy. And I go to the doctors all the time and be like, no, no, she's fine. She's fine. It's a textbook pregnancy. I'm like, There's something wrong, there's something wrong. And my husband was sort of like, and even my parents, I think we're starting to maybe wonder if there was something else happening. And then she, I was terrified, she would come early, and no one would like the doctors didn't believe me. And then she did, she was pregnant. And that sort of set me off a bit afterwards, especially with the nice sleep and everything. I was like, Well, if I think there's something wrong with her, and they say she's fine, if she really, you know. So that really freaked me out. And then that sort of started up, like the OCD got really bad, then constantly checking and stuff. And yeah, it sort of never really went away. I sort of got, I lived with it really, for a long time, just these things that I would do to try and make things easier, I guess, and the constant worry. And I would try and go to doctors about it. And they'd say, Oh, and always try and say, Oh, you're not depressed. And I definitely wasn't depressed because I love my life. And I was so hopeful and excited. But I just had this feeling that there was something horrible about to happen, and I didn't know when it was going to happen, but I was sure it was going to happen. So they'd say, Oh, we'll put you in a group with postnatal depression. I was like, but I'm not depressed. And it's only been in the last few years I've seen that they've just discovered that. As well as postnatal depression there is postnatal anxiety and postnatal OCD. I don't really the postnatal OCD the symptoms that I've read a different to what I experience with my OCD. But definitely the postnatal anxiety, I would say I definitely at least got. So then all that with the anxiety about having another Prem led to us having a five year gap between our gills. And I thought, I'm going to do it properly this time. You know, I went and got hit the tires, then all this other stuff. And yeah, I was I was okay for a bit, but I just went back to how I was. And you just learned to live with it. Like you sort of think it's just always under the surface. And it's always there. And you're doing all these things. And she's so tired and exhausted. And it wasn't until really at the start of this year. I don't know if I had like a breakdown of sorts, or whatever. But normally I have these anxious times where I find it hard to stop worrying about something. And it might last a little while but it goes away. But this was just full on for Halloween for six weeks or more like I was I was hardly wanting to leave the house. I would in school drop off and pick up and did the groceries. And that was enough to stress me out like I was not good. So then I thought I think I need more help. Like I've tried three psychologists. Yeah. And then when I spoke to my doctor, he was like, well, medication response. OCD is the one thing that actually responds amazingly to medication. He said we can actually almost cure with medication and then you can come off it and it should it can go somewhat. Oh, okay. So it still took me three months. Or was it three months, maybe two months of having the script and thinking, Oh, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. You're like Ross and Prince. I'm fine. Yeah. But yeah, so then I finally did it. And I wish I had some a couple of friends who had been through a similar thing and they were like, it's okay, you can try Because I was terrified, because I overthink I thought something horrible was gonna happen when I took these tablets. But yeah, I actually I started taking them on after oversight effects where I was like, Oh, is this what it's like to be normal? Like, is this how people live their lives? Because even and I thought that always times I thought I was okay. I was managing it like, I wasn't, I was so yeah, my head was so busy. Yeah, but now I'm like, oh, okay, we'll go do this thing. Okay. There's no hang on, let me think of every single scenario versus like, Oh, okay. And I'm like, Oh, I feel like I feel like a better mom a better wife. And I'm more relaxed. Sorry, huh? You're free of that worry. That was consuming you and yeah, over your life. Yeah, I see. I got to I mean, a lot of the things that I have that I used to got rituals and things like oh, it's so much rituals, it was more like I was never someone like I have to do risk X amount of times or things have to be done in these are sometimes things do have to be done in order. But not everything like it was all stuff that when I sat down and talk to my husband better even he didn't know like it's all stuff that was so like no one else would know unless I told them and a lot of it was just obsessive thoughts like that you try and fix in your head and you're just so worn out you're constantly thinking like and it is tiring. So I do need to have some a doctor said that with some therapy while you medicated you can push past the OCD tendencies without it being a stressful and then once you get past them you can come off for meds you mentioned with ICD do you find then that constructing like in crocheting is is that good for that to keep you focused at district distracts me it's crochet has so many different stitches and so many things you can do. But when I make a toy, I use only one type of stitch. But there's increases in decreases in shaping that goes into it. So it's the same stitch over and over and over again, with color changes or patterns in it. And I just find that so calming, like is this repetitive, it doesn't change, that's just stays the same. You know how it's gonna go? It's certainly, I think, probably reassuring. And it gives you that space where you know, everything's gonna go, probably the way you want it to go to, you're in control of how it goes. It's almost a therapy. I suppose I'll put that in the comments. But yeah, it's sort of a healing thing that you can do for yourself. Really is Yeah, yeah. And then it makes me feel good to make something to you. So it's and we. When my eldest was about, or 18 months or two years old, I changed doctors because I just I was I didn't feel like I was being listened to. And I started seeing a doctor that I'd seen once while I was pregnant with her I had this day where my heart had just felt like it was going so fast out of my chest like it was like it was so fast and having to see a doctor that was on duty and he was so helpful like he actually sat and listened to me and I didn't make me feel like I was imagining things or anything so I thought I wonder if I can get an appointment with him. I've been seeing that doctor ever since and he's absolutely brilliant. Just yeah. Listens doesn't rush me. And yeah, he's the one that's been patient with me and got me all the right help. So there are good doctors and I found one that listens. Oh, good now Yeah, yeah, but yeah, back then. Yeah, it was it was just like are you like especially with my daughter being promos? I always read think like I got to a point where I was thinking about it so much. I just because when you're having your first baby, I'm gonna read all the books and stuff. I could not read any books. I was like, that was what my anxiety was. It was like, Oh my gosh, this is you know, scary. What if that happens sort of thing. So I just stopped reading Doing anything I just Yeah. And then I saw enough, I did see enough missing something not right. Everyone's like, no, no. It's a good pregnancy like she's fine. I'm like why don't I feel fine? Like it's just yeah How do you feel about this, this concept of putting in a quitsies mum guilt that sort of society's throws around at us. Do you have any thoughts about that? That topic? It's funny, like, I listened to your podcast who Julie Denton and she explained it so beautifully. And I thought, Ah, I should think like I am. I'm just the walking mom guilt is just. I've always or I've had, I've always been an anxious person, even as a kid, very anxious, kid. I mean, I overthink everything. So I'm always thinking, Ah, did I do enough with them today? Did? Did they feel love today? Did you know it's just so like, my husband will say you're overthinking it again. It's you know, you did a good job. It's fine. You know, I'm always thinking that I'm falling short somewhere. But that's probably because of me. I think more than anything, but yeah, I'm always thinking that I must be doing something. Not quite right. I'm getting better. But yeah. It sounds like your husband has good support, then to remind you that you are doing a great job. Yeah. Yeah, he is. He's, he's like, he's the solid stable line and I'm just the over thinker and the emotional person. Talking about identity, that's something I also really like to go into with my guests about is it important for you to feel like you're not just someone's mountain, you're still died, you're still the creator, you still you still who you are, even though you happen to have children. To me being a mum is the best thing I have ever done. It is just the biggest blessing. And I'm always always in the back of my head, that there are only this little months like they're growing so fast. And it may not be everyone's cup of tea or how they want to do things, but I have just loved being there and doing that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I'd have 100 kids if I could. I'm normally not 100 Actually that yeah, maybe not. Maybe three or four but no I love being a mom. But I guess I have liked just only just this last little bit having my page and having that little bit of space where I make my toys and I guess no one on there asked me to you know, make them tea or clean up their mess. mom helped me by my nose and what Oh, no. I have like that. And little things like my pages. One page is going to be in a like an online Christmas magazine. And I went and got photos taken for it and my makeup done. And I have not done that. I got married 15 years ago and that was the last time I had proper photos taken and my makeup done. Like it was like, Who is this person? But yeah, I'm interested to see where it goes. It's like it's kind of it's fun having something that I've made and that I'm doing. Being a stay at home mom is something I have always wanted to be often people just assume like, Oh, just a stay at home mom, like you know, I've got no drive or you know, you sitting at home eating biscuits and watching telly or which Oh, like as someone who has had like I said, I've got my first job at 13 and I always worked full time up until the pointy end of my pregnancy with my eldest. I physically couldn't. But you know, I've always worked and but I can tell you that being at home is just I have ever worked it It is unrelenting. Yes. And it's it's an equal house like, it's not like I'm expected to put on lipstick and look nice for my husband and, you know, have a hot meal and a foot rub waiting for him when he gets home. That's not happening. I would say that I'm a feminist, and all that sort of thing. And you get the impression from some people that they think that you can't be a feminist, you know, you're at home, you're like a housewife type thing. But when it's your choice, and it's what you want to do something that I've always wanted to do. And I had always assumed that when I had kids, this is what I wanted to do. And my husband was happy for me to do what I was happy to do, he would have supported me either way, and we've been lucky that we've been able to do so. So I mean, I realized that some people, it's not an option, not ungrateful, but for me, it is an option and to have that choice to have not have it forced on you. Or I think that's the type of feminism to like, it doesn't affect my girls like neither them like, Oh, this is all we can achieve in our lives sort of thing. Neither of them are overly maternal kids. Like in a you have some little girls who just love their babies and their dollars. Neither one are like that. They just they will always told like, you know, the world is your oyster, you can do what you want doesn't matter. Yeah, I've instilled that in them. It's so important to make to instill that just because you're a girl doesn't mean anything. You are strong, you are fierce. If you want to do something, you can do it like yeah, sometimes I think Did I sort of take on my, a bit more of my personality, because I'm home all the time, like my husband's very sports orientated and really into fitness and stuff like that. And they both love getting outside and playing stuff with him and all that, but they're both super creative as well. My eldest is I don't know where she gets it from, but she's got this insane musical talent. Neither of us are musical but she has talent. My youngest can draw like amazing roaring and yeah, I just I'll do their own thing. They're not just because I'm at home. They're not made their own people. And I think to like always been creative since I was little. For me, creativity has always been based around making like was always around doing that my bedroom and making this homely place and I am a homebody and I think for me, I just love being able to provide this home you know, this cozy bit they can come to mom's here. It's just I realize not for everyone but I love that I can do that. When I found out I was pregnant with my youngest, I was making like a full size blanket for my eldest so I did that through pregnancy. I don't handle being pregnant very well. So it was very slow. I was not it was I was not well and then I started making my youngest a blanket for when she was born. It did slow down a lot being pregnant and then afterwards where he just saw exhausted and fading all the time so it did slow down a bit of time probably picked up a bit again maybe when she was around one will be before she turned one when they can sort of sit next to you maybe your your hands are a bit more free to things rather than maybe all the time. Is it important to you that each of your, your designs that you make, that they're different that you're not making the same color? are, you know, if someone orders something, you make sure you don't do it in the same color as you've done something else? Yeah, very important. Yeah, I want every light because that's the, when I think of handmade and all the time and effort that goes into it, you're going to spend more than you would if you were buying something from a shopping town. So I want to make sure that when you get that, that it is special and unique. And you're the only person with that, that's just yours. I have had a few people say, Oh, can you make me this dislike this and I'm like, I can make you that animal. But we've got to change the colors. Next year, I'll have two kids at school. So that's where I'm sort of hoping to see where this goes, I guess, obviously, there will still be days when they need mum. And I'm not going to be able to do anything like every mum has been trying to fight this anxiety and OCD for so long. And I did just start some medication about three months ago, which has helped me immensely just to be able to do things. And yeah, like there's been times where, like, before, I wouldn't have gotten I got photos done, I wouldn't have not when I first made my page, I was never going to show my face on it. I was never going to do anything like it always just going to be these faceless pages with my creations. But I sort of made some friends on there, like local people, and they're like, who are you? Who is this person? I'm like, Oh, hi. Yeah, so sort of, it's been nice to sort of Yeah, meet some people through here and see what I can make. I guess I just want to see, I have plans to or now I mean, thinking about it, I have plans to make lots of my own patterns and steal patterns as well. So that that's another way that people don't have to wait for me to make something people that can already make can do that one day I'd love to write a pattern book. Just have my own book made it make it like a storybook you know, with these creatures in the story. And I've always wanted to add a book. That's another thing I want to look into. And yeah, I guess I'm just seeing where it goes Yeah. When I go places, so if I've got a doctor's appointment or a dentist appointment, yes. Something that the kids, you know, just go into the shops, whatever. And I go kid us. The first question I always get to ask is, where are the kids? But my husband, he doesn't ever get asked, Where are the kids? You know? Is it just because, and what oh, sorry, I didn't realize I needed an audience for a pap smear. And even if I bump into someone down the street, like I might have just nicked in after school, drop, pick up a job offer something to grab something from the shops. It's like, oh, you keep lists today. I'm like, school, sometimes I feel like saying, I'm at home alone, but it's fine. I've put TV on and the pantries open so they'll be right. With my anxiety and stuff, like things like that really used to really upset me, I'd be like, Oh, I must think I'm a terrible mom, you know, like, stuff like that. And now I'm just like, No, you know, they have another parent, they have a dad who's more than capable. Or you know, he's at work. My mother in law comes and helps out like, it's yeah, I'm not gonna leave my kids at home alone. And that's important, too. I think people who make those off the cuff comments that make them mean nothing to them, but they don't think about the impact that they have on other people. You know, like that, like you said that that sort of comments would have really heightened your anxiety and, you know, made you question yourself, but some persons just flippantly made a remark and yeah, I think it's important for people to realize that you don't know what other people are going through I have started like because I'm not someone who, like I said, I'm a homebody and I do actually genuinely love being around my family, even When the kids are driving me crazy, I simply want to be away from for too long. So I started doing things like, it was really hard at first, but sometimes just saying, No, like my mom do this, do this, do this. I actually say, oh, no, I'm going to finish making this Christmas ball. Now, at first I like, oh, but in our, you know, mom can do other things, too. She's not just the thing we go to when we're bored. And I started. I love bass, if I'm stressed or frustrated, just put me in water or near the beach, and I'm all good. So I've been sitting in the bar, like, I'll get tea on early, I get the gills or really my husband cleans up the kitchen. And then I go and sit in the bathroom bar. So until it gets cold. I just say now what actually makes me it's just a little bit of something that I do. And I would never have done that before. Because I would have felt guilty that I wasn't being available and being all these things. I'm like, No, actually, I need to go and just sit in the bath too much and into a prune and yeah, doing things like that. So small steps but yeah. You're always lived in at Gambia. I have. Yeah. So I was born or I lived out of town, I went to OB flat primary school, which doesn't even exist anymore. And then my, where we lived way out at cave to whichever one goes where I know where there was like always, there's always this tiny little group of houses. So I live there. That's what I grew up. And the is probably closer to Grant High. But the school bus for Allendale came to serve and I thought my daughter was trying to get in the room. The school bus came to the end of our street. So I went to Allendale. And that's actually where I met my husband. So we weren't together until we've been friends for about five years and he'd been overseas and then we got together but yeah, that's where I'm at human. Yeah. So always local but sort of out of town until I became an adult really can you tell us about what you've got coming up? I know I saw on your Instagram page. You're working on some Christmas decorations. I'm trying to get through them at the moment. So I've got the Christmas decorations. I want to make 12 I don't know why I had to throw in my head. Maybe I had the 12 days of Christmas or whatever. Suddenly my head but I'd hoped to make 12 If I can. I have a lot of orders to get through. It was one of them. It's going to be another one that I'm going to be designing myself which I'm really excited about. I've got the magazine Christmas thing coming up, too. Yeah, just orders like the other weekend. I had so many people message me for orders. I'm like, I'm booked out till next year. Like it's just it's just like, oh, wow, okay. I need to buy a diary. Because I've just got this notepad in my phone this is like Okay, I think we need to do something a bit more proper here but yeah thanks so much Jane. It's been lovely chatting with you and all the best with your Christmas range and, and getting your book going. I'd be really excited to hear about that in the future. Thank you

Dr Erica Ball US classical music composer, violinist, pianist and educator S2 Ep38 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Erica Ball is a contemporary classical music composer, violinist, pianist and educator from Portland Maine, USA and a mother of 2 boys. Erica received her PhD in music composition from the University of Pennsylvania where she studied with Anna Weesner , Jim Primosch, and Jay Reise. Translating everyday life into music is at the heart of Erica whimsical and playful works. Inspired by the natural world, a childhood spent dreaming of becoming a ballerina, and studies of 20th-century American avant-garde music, Erica is equally at home writing lyrical melodies that sweep across an orchestra and collaborating with animators and circus dancers. With an affinity for layered complexity, Erica’s music portrays clouds building up on the horizon as a summer thunderstorm approaches or the busy sounds of passengers in a subway station. Erica's music has been performed by numerous ensembles including the Da Capo Chamber Players , the Daedalus Quartet , pianist Blair McMillen , the International Contemporary Ensemble , Network for New Music , and the American Symphony Orchestra . Her works have been heard across the country in Chicago, Boston, New York and Philadelphia, and internationally in Germany and New Zealand. Recent commissions include Riding the EL and The Spotted Lanternfly for Relâche, and a thread run through which was commissioned by a consortium of advanced youth orchestras to be premiered in spring 2020, and now postponed to 2022. In addition to her work as a composer, Erica remains active as a violinist, pianist, and educator with a special interest in bringing contemporary music to new audiences. Today we chat about the lack of representation of women in the classical music canon, the way that arts are undervalued in our culture and how amazing it is to have an artist mother who gets what you do. Connect with Erica Erica's music used throughout the episode with permission: war no more commissioned by Network for New Music 9 lives - performed by Daedalus Quartet révérence Let's Be Spoken mentorship Read about Irelands basic wage for artists Podcast - instagram / website When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to today's episode. Thanks for joining us. My guest today is Dr. Erica ball. Erica is a classical music composer, violinist pianist and educator from Portland, Maine in the USA, and a mother of two boys. Erica received her PhD in music composition from the University of Pennsylvania, where she studied with Anna Wizner Jim pre mush and J res. Translating everyday life into music is at the heart of Eric is whimsical and playful works. Inspired by the natural world, a childhood spent dreaming of becoming a ballerina, and studies of 20th century American avant garde music. Erica is equally at home writing lyrical melodies that sweep across an orchestra and collaborating with animators and circumstances. With an affinity for layered complexity. Eric is music portrays clouds building up on the horizon as a summer thunderstorm approaches or the busy sounds of passengers on a subway station. Eric is music has been performed by numerous ensembles including the capo Chamber Players, pianos, Blair McMillan, the International Contemporary ensemble, and the American Symphony Orchestra. Her works have been heard across the country in Chicago, Boston, New York and Philadelphia, and around the world in Germany and New Zealand. Today, we chat about the lack of representation of women in the classical music canon, the way that the arts are undervalued and underfunded in our culture, and how amazing it is to have an artist mother who just gets what you're doing. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Hello, Oh, yay. Good. It's nice to meet you, Alison. Lovely to meet you, too. Eric. It's lovely to have you on. Yeah. It's been it's been really interesting to listen to like past episodes. And like, there's definitely like common threads no matter where, like artists, moms are in the world. We're all kind of dealing with these same things. It's been really, it's been reassuring to know. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you're not the first person to say that that reassurance it's Yeah, certainly something that people gain from it. Sorry. That is really good. I'm really pleased that it's helpful and makes people feel like they're doing okay. You know, like, what they're going through is completely normal and they're not alone. So yeah, it's a good feeling. But yeah, so you're in Portland in my set right? It's Portland mean not Portland, Oregon. Yeah. I mean, there's another Portland Okay. I've got a Portland an hour down the road from us here and Oh, really? It's not very big though. It's not like hardly anyone lives there. But so what's the weather been like over there at the moment? We just got a big snowstorm. We got like six or seven inches on Friday. So this morning I was out cross country skiing with my kids in the woods and just got back from from a run on our icy roads. That's why I'm a little flush still. Yeah, definitely the middle of winter here. Yeah, cool. Oh, that's awesome. We don't get anywhere near that here. We don't get we don't get cold. It's just Yeah, that's what I love. I love asking people from around the world what the weather's like, because? Like you, you're a composer. Erica, how did you get into music when you first started out, I started playing instruments. And then I didn't get into composing until kind of late in the game. So in high school, I went to a wonderful program called the Walden school for young musicians. And it's a five week long program in New Hampshire, and it's specifically for young composers. So they were teaching a variety of things, musicianship music theory, but ultimately composing, and I had never really written a piece before. And I wanted to try it out. So one school gave me this opportunity. And then at the end of the five week program, your music is performed by like, some of the best musicians in from New York City often, and what a thrill to like, have written something as like a 16 year old and then to hear these like hot shots, play it on stage. It's like wow. And, and that's kind of what hooked me. And I, I kind of already had the realization that I was not going to have a career as like a performing musician, that just wasn't a thing for me. But I loved music so much, and composition seemed like, well, this is something that I can do that I also really love that I don't have to spend, you know, those like agonizing hours in the practice rooms, and like the audition circuit, and all that. Yeah. And then I went to college, and I was really fortunate that I studied with Joan tower, who's probably at least in the stage, she's one of the leading women composers. She's in her 80s. Now. So she's been doing it a long time, certainly one of the trailblazers for, for women in the classical music industry. And I was very fortunate, she kind of took me under her wing, and I was the only woman in the department writing music when I was there. So so that was really special. And then, after undergrad, I kind of decided that I was going to take one chance. And I said, I'll apply to one graduate school for composition. And then I applied to like, law schools as well. A totally different career path. And, and I got in, and I was like, well, the worst thing that happens is I waste four years of my life, doing something that I love, right? And then I can always still decide to go to law school. And I was very fortunate that the program that I got into at the University of Pennsylvania was a free ride. So like you, you do have to work you be a TA and all that jazz, but it wouldn't put me into debt to go to grad school. So So I went and then I've been composing ever since. So that's kind of my route into it. Yeah, yeah. It's funny how things work out. Isn't it? Like you had that law thing? I bet you would have been disappointed if you had to do law though. Like you would have been? Yeah, probably. So What instruments do you play? So I play piano, as you can see here with my giant baby grand that takes up half the room. So I play piano and violin. I started piano when I was like, two or three years old and violin shortly thereafter. And I still am very active playing I don't really love to perform. But I do a lot of studio teaching. So besides composing, teach a lot of kids and adults piano and violin as well. Yeah. So you're very busy. Music is your is your whole life, basically. Yeah. That's so good. I love it was looking on your website and all the different sort of styles of music that you've composed for. Which is really cool. I used to be in I used to do a vocal group. So I'm used to like SSA and SSAA because I was with with females, and every now and then we'd get to do an essay T Baker's, we'd join up with a with a men's group and it was so exciting. So I was looking at you like you do vocal, which is really cool. And chamber music and orchestral music and also Are for individual instruments as well. So you basically do everything really. Yeah, as I mean, a lot of composers, you know, kind of write for all different types of instrumentations. There's, there's some that have managed to kind of find their niche and like just write vocal music or just write opera or the rare composer these days that can kind of make a living just reading orchestral pieces. But for most of us, it's kind of you just got to write for whoever's willing to play your music, and sometimes it's an orchestra, and sometimes it's a solo performer. So really doing everything. Yeah. Do you have a favorite like a preference that you like to write for? It's a good question. I love writing for strings. As a violinist, myself, so strings is probably one of my favorites. piano is even the less the other instrument that I play is very intimidating. Because there's, there's so many possibilities with it. And there's so much repertoire, right. So there's, there's so much history of the instrument. But I did just finish up a suite of piano preludes. And I got, I got pretty excited once I was into them, and writing them. And then right now, I'm going to be getting started on a piece for string quartet and piano. So piano quintet. So that'll that'll be an interesting challenge. I love writing for strings. I've written a couple of string quartets before, but now I'm going to have that challenge of integrating the piano into the ensemble. So do you get your work from people that commissioned you to do work? Is that part of what you do? Yeah, so right now, I've been able to sort of cobbled together a bunch of consortium Commission's. So I kind of asked people I know, friends, colleagues, friends of friends, would you be interested in joining this consortium, and basically, it's a way of sort of having these performers pool their resources to pay me to write for them. So it's not so much of a big ask for them, but I still get paid fairly for my work. So the first time I did this was with three different youth orchestras in the Philadelphia area, which is where I was originally from and up until a year ago. And we had three years of youth orchestras to in Philadelphia when Houston, Texas, just sort of people that I knew, and they pooled their resources together, I wrote a piece for them. And so since then, I've sort of developed this consortium model. And I did that with the piano preludes that I just finished up writing and the piano quintet that I'm about to get started on is also a consortium commission. Yeah, cool. That's a great idea. I love that idea. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of came up with yourself? Or is that something that sort of is fairly recognized that goes on? I think it's it's becoming more of a thing. There are definitely some other composers who are doing it and certainly, like at the orchestral level, you know, if an orchestra is going to commission a composer, oftentimes they do consortiums, so that way that composer gets like an East Coast premiere and a West Coast premiere so you try to make sure that your players are not all in New York City and kind of stepping on each other's toes when they premiere the piece. But I think it's becoming a more common model which is great because otherwise the only way you get your music played is if you win these competitions and they're they're really hard to get and you know, there's lots of problems with the competitions themselves way they're organized, are they equitable? Are they are they discriminatory against certain groups of people so yes model is really working for me the concessions Yeah good. Listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I wanted to ask about the protect some of the titles of your pieces. There's a couple that have sort of got like two meanings or hidden meanings in them. We're example this one. It's called the resilient sound but then through the use of brackets says the silence sound is that if I got that, right, I interpreted that right. Yeah, so I love word games. I love anagrams and Scrabble and all that kind of stuff and um, I've always been really interested in the poetry of E. Cummings and the interesting things that he does like with the shapes of the words on the page, and just the way that you can can play with words and like you said, create sort of double meanings using parentheses or brackets. So, yeah, I have played around with some interesting titles of my own. And that one was sort of like playing around with the word resilient, but yet there's the word silent in it. And those two can kind of go against each other in terms of their meaning. So playing around with the dualities contained within those words. Yeah. So it's like you can send your own sort of message through the music, but then also through that title, you sort of get people thinking about the deeper meaning behind things. I suppose it's not just, you know, it's not just maybe as they expect it is. There's more going on. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, and with, with contemporary classical music, you know, most people if they're, if they're going to a chamber music concert, and they see like, a composer on the piece that they don't composer on the program, they don't recognize, like, Oh, what is this is it going to be weird sounds that I don't understand. And so anything that I as a composer can give them to sort of latch on to to help them derive meaning from the piece, I find helps with the overall reception of the work. So if it's if it's an intriguing title, if it's a title that has some scene depicted in it, or has some emotional content it gives, it sort of sets the stage for them when they're listening. And I also I don't know, if you saw some of the artwork that's on my website, like the colors of my pieces. My My mother is an artist, and she is always graciously donated her art or some sometimes I've been fortunate enough to be able to, to pay her for her artwork. But it graces the covers of my scores. And I think that that visual element is really important for the performers as well, because they're playing it for the first time. Yep. And to have like a visual representation of the piece as a way into the interpretation of IQ be really helpful. Yeah, helps just to sort of set the mood for them of where this is, where this is coming from, and how it's to be sort of interpreted and presented, I guess. Yeah, I love that. And also, I think it's cool that it's sort of like you've got your own sort of niche in that way that people will remember. Like you said, people that might not know you, or they'll go oh, that's that. That's that lady that makes the call, like titles and like, you know what I mean? Like people connect to that with you and remember will remember you for that. I don't know I just thought that as you were saying. Yeah, I love on your website, your sort of motto, like translating everyday life into music. I think it's just such a I know it sounds simplistic, but it's such a it's a huge way of describing music, isn't it? It's like, it's, it's just that normal everyday things that happened to us, but they can be turned into this incredible piece or incredible painting or incredible body of work. It's just, I really love that analogy. Yeah, thanks. It took me a long time to figure that out that that's what a lot of my music is about. Because in when you think of like the Canon, and like Bach and Beethoven and all these, like great composers that we hold up as like genius, white European men, and we put them on a pedestal. And like, that's, that's not what my music is about. And, you know, it's me going on a run and hearing the sound of water as it hits like ice in a stream and makes this like really interesting tinkly kind of sound that's not quite pitched, but has some pitch to it and has an irregularity and then going to the piano and seeing if I can recreate that like that. That's what the music is about to me. Or it's about. I have a string quartet that's kind of about different episodes and a cat's life. Yeah, and yeah, and one of them. A couple of the movements are about napping because cats nap all the time. And, and they all are derived from children's lullaby eyes. So there's one that centers on Twinkle, twinkle, and there's a different napping movement that centers on taps. And you know, they don't, they're not going to hear them that way. But those are like the bits of material that I pulled from them. Because I was, you know, getting ready to have my own kids and thinking a lot about what it would mean to be a mom, and you know, what songs I was going to sing to my children. And, and that's where the music came from. It wasn't some like grand idea about what it means to be a sleeping cat. It was just sort of banal kind of inspiration. Yeah. Yeah. I think at some level, I think. I don't know. It's like that. I don't know how to word it now. People like because I write my rap music, just like as a song singer, songwriter, and people like, how did you get that idea? What did you do? And most of my stuff comes like, similarly, like, I'd be out for a walk. And I just, I don't know, just get a tune in my head or, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot simpler than what people think. I think, like, I don't want to make it seem that it's super easy. But inspiration comes from everywhere. Like it's all around us all the time. And it's just, it is part of, like, life just comes into you what you're creating. I know that sounds like I really dumbed it down and really simplified it, but I don't know that's exactly what it is. Yeah, it's just always there for us if we can be open to it, I suppose. And look at things through different eyes and for years and, you know, interpret things differently. I loved how you just said genius, white European men. It's I feel like there's there's there's more of a conversation to be had. Yes. Is it? I'm not in the I'm not in the classical world is that is that still what people want is that what they're drawn to? Is that what people are still sort of holding us that? I don't know, the marker of unfortunately, the classical music industry is decades, if not hundreds of years behind the rest of the world. And, and it's, it's in recent years, probably within like the last in the last two years, especially with the pandemic but also within like the last five to 10 years, there has been a real awakening and a real beginning to reckon with the past of the history of classical music and how you know, history is always written written by the winners, but people who have the power by the people who are in charge and so we have Bach, we have Beethoven, we have Debussy, we have Revell, we are missing all the women, not to mention all the musics from different cultures, or the musics that, you know, were were popular but weren't part of like the religious order. Because a lot of classical music comes out of the church music and comes from that patronage model. And so it's a real problem within the classical music industry. And thankfully, the industry is starting to recognize it as a problem and starting to change. But there's, we're kind of straddling, at least I'm finding straddling these generations of, you know, there's some older musicians who don't want to change and don't want the industry to change. And then there's a really strong cohort of younger musicians who want to be the solution and want to make real fundamental changes, to make things more equitable, to be rewriting history to include composers like Amy beach like Florence price, like Margaret bonds. And it's it's really important to me that that is also a part of my work as a living female composer. So in my own studio, when I'm teaching students, I make sure that everyone's always playing a piece by woman composer, not allowed to just play music that's by Bach and Beethoven. Yeah, it's it's a real problem. And, and I think it's for people who aren't in the industry, it can kind of come as a shock, because so much of the world has become accustomed to sort of recognizing talent wherever it exists, and not just sort of in these siloed areas. But it's a it's a big problem in our industry. Hmm. Is the audience sort of driving change as well? Did they want it? Are they wanting to hear new things? Is that are they sort of hungry for that? I don't know modernization of the of the what's the word I don't know, relation of the canon. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I? That's a really interesting question because I think it depends on which part of the audience we're talking about. Yeah. And I have found that, that older generations off often are a little bit more resistant to this change or to, to hearing pieces that are new or being premiered. But I think there's, if you present new music in the right way, if you kind of set it up, if you give people information if you play a piece more than once, because you might not like Beethoven the first time you hear it, but because it's played so often, it's a part of our popular culture we hear in Looney Tunes, because it's sort of everywhere we end up gravitating towards it. And I think there's a lot to be said for how new music is presented to an audience that can then make them fall in love with it. And I think I think audiences are more and more becoming interested in hearing new music by hearing music by people who are living now and music that responds to our times. Absolutely. Just on that, too, I noticed there was a piece that you've written, it was like a, sorry, I can't remember exactly what context it was in. But it was a retelling I suppose re imagining of Down by the riverside of war no more, which I thought was really cool. Knowing the words to and everything else. Oh, that is really cool. I just thought then, as we're talking about current stuff, like that's, I don't know, I mean, what's going on right now, with Russia and Ukraine? It's like, there could be, there's so many pieces that could be like people could hear now that relate to what's happening now. You know, why do we have to keep listening to stuff that doesn't sort of align with our current political climate or social climate? Like, doesn't sound familiar chain? Why does that mean, we have to keep hearing it over and over again, and like we hear it when we're on hold on the phone or hear it on a background of a commercial? Like, why? Why is that so important to us to keep hearing it? You know? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. It's a definite thing. I mean, you think of like popular music, they they move on, right, that was popular last year is not popular this year. And that's kind of part of the excitement of it. And in the classical music world, we like haven't moved on from like, the past 200 years, yet. We're still trying to make progress. It's very interesting. Yeah. Says it's very interesting. I wonder if it's other night, I'm gonna draw a long bow here. The amount of money that people make out of the pop music industry, is it because it's driven? It's a It's, what's the word? It's a commercialized entity. So they're always trying to pump out new things and make more money? I don't know. Is that Is that a fair thing to say? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe? Maybe it's part of it. I mean, if you think classical music at one point for certain populations was the popular music of the time. Yeah. And it's just kind of become this like, niche tiny little corner of the music industry now. But you're, you're changing that. So that is awesome. I love that. So you mentioned so we are gonna get your children at some point. You mentioned that you're you're a teacher as well. That I love how you said you make sure there's some feet, there's always like a female composers work that people are working on. Do you find that? The I guess it's gonna be the same as the last question about the audience depending on age. But are your students wanting new pieces? Are they looking for the stuff they've never heard before to play? Or are they still going back to the old, faithful sort of? Yeah. Most of my students don't realize before they come to me that there is new music out there. They just want to learn how to play the piano or the violin, and usually that's through some exposure that they've had to classical music in general. And I think it's when they encounter me and I'm like, I write music. I am a composer. Oh, what is that? What does that sound like? And you know, I've I've yet have a student who doesn't like that, about me as a teacher that I'm that I'm actively creating music, and I will frequently play my own music for my students. So when I was working on the piano preludes, I actually played some rough drafts for students. And I asked them like, well, what descriptive word comes to mind, because I can't figure it out. And it was kind of helping them, helping them give me some ideas for the piece. And they loved that to sort of have a window into the process and to know what was going on. And as far as exposing them to different types of music, I still am very much like a classical Lee trained musician. So that's, that's what I teach. I don't teach jazz improvisation because that's not my thing. I don't know how to do it. But I am very careful that I'm incorporating music from outside the traditional canon. So, for example, female composers, not just current female composers, but historical female composers that aren't sort of in most of the anthologies that we find when we're teaching sort of graded piano studies. Yes, that's another way to expose them to it. Yeah, fantastic. Oh, good for you. That's so awesome to hear. Alright, let's get to your family then. How many children do you have? Tell me a little bit? I have two little boys. I have a almost six year old and a three year old. Yeah, cool. I've got a six year old. It's a good time a life Baby six, zero. It is it so they into your meeting, they play music, they sort of come in and hang on your beautiful piano. They do like to bang on the piano. I also have you can't see it. It's off screen here. But I have a cupboard filled with like hand percussion different things. Boomwhackers which are these like big plastic tubes that you whack on the ground and it makes up a rough sounding pitch. tambourine, tambourines, maracas, egg shakers, they love going in there and having family band time. And it's quite amazing the amount of cacophony that they can create. And I can actually sit at my desk and tune it all out and do work. And they'll be sitting here on the floor, just making a racket, but it keeps them busy for a good 20 minutes. So if I have to deal with the noise, I will Oh, JC do well. And it's sort of I think, like, energetically, it's sort of, you know, it's, it's getting so much energy through their body as well. Like, I don't know, I work in childcare. So I'm used to seeing children go completely bonkers. And then completely flat. So just massive buildup of energy. There's like, oh, no, do your kids do the same sort of thing? Oh, yes. All of the day is always like, get them as tired as possible. So they sleep, and they go to bed early and stay asleep. So with those ages of, of your boys, when do you do your work? Is it sort of an evening thing? Or are they in care, so you can actually do what you need to do. So right now, I also so I do all different things. So I'm currently working a full time job as an arts administrator. So I'm sort of running all the administrative stuff for a professional string quartet here in Maine. So that's what I am doing roughly like the nine to five hours. So I have fortunately a lot of flexibility because I'm working from home for that. And then I teach about eight hours of studio a week so that students who come come to my home and I teach them piano and violin. And then somewhere in there I squeezed in my composition, often times, it's like really early in the morning, or it's late at night. Or the nice thing about composing as opposed to practicing an instrument is that I don't have to be physically at my instrument to do it. So like I'll be out in a run and I'll be thinking about the music and kind of testing out ideas in my head. So so I'm able to do it kind of squeezed in there. I'm also really fortunate that my partner is very supportive of my creativity and he'll take the kids out of the house on the weekend for a cup have hours and I'll get like a big chunk of time where I can really work. But no set schedule unfortunately, just happens when it happens. Do you find that happen after you come back from your run, and you've got these ideas to actually come back in and either notated or recorded onto something, because you're coming back into the like mum role is that you find that it's so hard to switch between the different roles and to be constantly interrupted. I think that's probably what drives me more nights is when I'm in the middle of composing, you know, maybe I'm like writing something at the piano while they're eating breakfast. Because they, most of the time, can eat peacefully. And one of them will come running in here, I need some more milk or whatever the problem happens to be. And it's like, oh, there goes the idea. It's just gone. Poof out of my head. But I've gotten into the habit of leaving myself video recordings as little messages. So if I'm going to sit down at the piano, and I know there's even a chance I might get interrupted, I'll just hit record. And that way, anything that I play anything that I've been kind of talking to myself out loud through giving myself ideas, at least I have a record of it, and I can kind of get back into that moment via the video recording. Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's Oh, my gosh, I'm feeling the pain there. i Yeah, I think interruptions is probably the thing that frustrates me the most really, it's just, you're on a roll. And then it's like, I need some cheese, oh. You're saying earlier about when you were writing the cat piece, when you were thinking about what it would be like to be mother? Can you expand on that a little bit more about sort of how you were feeling when you knew your life was about to change completely. So I, we very sort of deliberately made the decision like, Okay, we're going to have kids. And it came apart mostly because I so after grad school, I went on the job market for one year. And I got I got a couple of interviews, I got to the final round for when an interview offers sort of tenure track composition or theory professors in the university and went through that whole process and realize that it was either going to take a really long time and multiple years of doing this whole kind of circus to find the right position for me. Or I would have to do a series of visiting assistant professorships, where you get hired for one year, maybe two years at an institution, and then you leave and you go somewhere else. Or I would never get a position. And none of those options really sounded good to me. They don't have stability, it's a lot of sort of giving up a lot of your life for these academic institutions that who knows how they're going to treat you. And then then you also have the tenure clock, right. So even if you did land, a tenure track position, you're on the tenure clock, not a great time to be having kids, it's already stressful enough. And I made the decision that that wasn't the life for me. And I would rather have my kids young and maybe give up that dream of teaching in a university and have my kids young and get them out of the house while I'm young too. Because, you know, the composing if I had to stop for a couple of years, which I did when my kids were were very young, I didn't there were a couple of years, but I just didn't write a single note. I'd rather do that then and then have the rest of my life to do the creative stuff. It will always be there. So yeah, yeah, it was like an actual decision of how I want my life to be. Yeah, so when you said how you didn't write a note were you playing it all was like music still a part of your life during the very much so playing that I found that so i i graduated grad school and had a couple months off, and then ended up pregnant with number one. And I was teaching as an adjunct during the pregnancy and we had just bought a house and moved in. So there was like a lot of stuff going on. Being homeowners fixing up the house and dealing with morning sickness adjunctive and a couple of classes dealing with that still kind of trying to apply to some jobs and, and composition just kind of fell by the wayside. And I think part of that was also related to how intense graduate school is. is just the amount of work and the amount of pressure that you're under. And I really rushed to finish my dissertation as quickly as possible because I didn't want to. I didn't want to be in the position where I would lose my funding, but still have to finish my dissertation. Yeah. So I really pushed to finish it while I still had funding. And I was just kind of burnt out. I was, yeah, it was done for a little while. And, and I was being creative. And other things, I found that, you know, learning, there's so much education that you have to do when you're pregnant, just learning about what's going on with your body learning about okay, what is it going to be like to be a mom? How am I going to prepare myself for this? So there were other things going on, that felt somewhat creative, and I was still constantly playing music, and I was playing the community orchestra and playing with friends and still teaching a lot. So music has always been there, just the composition stop for a few years? Yeah, that's understandable. It's like you just can't do everything. Exactly. And even if you know, you have the time to do it, it'd be like, we actually need to rest at some point, don't you like you just can't, I mean, some people probably do, but I know myself, you just cannot push through because you just need to fill up at some point yes. When you are writing your pieces, you talked about getting influence from everywhere? Do you find that your children influence your composing? Sometimes, I think more than anything, it's their curiosity and watching them, watching them learn watching how they interact with the world that has, in some ways given me permission to do the same. And like that moment that I was describing earlier, whereas on a run, I heard the water stream and the ice, I don't think I would have necessarily noticed that before kids. I think I think parts of me have always been in tune with just sort of listening in a way that maybe non musicians don't, because music is such a part of my life. But I'm not sure if I would have stopped. And I literally stopped on the side of the trail, and just kind of stood there listening to it. And then I was playing with a stick in the stream. And I don't know that I would have done that if I didn't have kids just sort of this permission to engage with the world in a more childlike sense of curiosity. I think that's more than anything, how they've sort of inspired and worked their way into my music. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I feel like as adults, we sort of feel like we have to behave in a certain way. And like, when you were talking there about stopping, I remember one day I'd stopped while it was walking, and I stopped to look at these flowers. And someone drove personnel like, what do you do? Like, you know, yeah, you know, I had a sledge at me. And I was like, I'm looking at the flowers, like, you know, what's the big? You know, I think, I don't know, somewhere in adult life. It's sort of like, No, you're not allowed to be playful, and you know, that anymore. It's like, you have to be serious and grown up now. I feel like being an artist or a creative person, you sort of have to have that in a real what would you be inspired by it? Like, you know, that just you have to be curious and, and stop and play with sticks. You know? Just, it's just part of life. I don't know. It's it's a very interesting thing. And the more I talk to artistic moms, it's like, there's this thread that goes through that you you are different in a really good way like you you don't necessarily have these hang ups about what people that judge you or people can worry about things and I don't know it's just a different way of looking at life. I don't know maybe I'm speaking for myself, but I don't know I just think I don't know I'm going off on babbling Vietnam so there was there was sort of a in the back of my head when I stopped on the trail. This is like busy trails through our woods were in the city so people are walking their dogs and stuff. There was a part of me that that kind of said, what if someone comes down the trail you're gonna be the adult on the side of the trail playing with sticks in the stream and like tapping the ice to see what kind of sound it makes. Like so what Yeah, so what they see me like it drag myself and like experimenting and being curious. And they'll probably just walk right past me. Yeah, maybe though maybe they'll be curious and ask what I'm doing. But probably they'll just walk right past. Yeah, there you go. I love it so there's a thing that we talk about in Australia a lot. And I'm finding that it's it is quite a worldwide phenomenon, this mum guilt. And I put that in inverted commas. What's your thoughts on mum guilt? Oh, boy. I think it it's a very real thing. And I think it's, it's something that's been constructed by our culture's and by our society, I don't think it's a, an innate part of being a human mother. But I think at this point, it is because of the culture and the societies that we're in. And it's, it's torturous, and it's, it's not something that I that I think, a lot of men experience. And I'm sure there are some that experience, you know, some version of this, like parental parental guilt, but I think there's something there's something special about being a mom experiencing it, just because of all of the different expectations that are put on women. And, and it's definitely something that I've wrestled with, and within the classical music industry, you know, there's, it's taken a long time for orchestras to accept women as violinists and their sections. So, you know, within my lifetime, the Vienna Philharmonic, for example, like wouldn't allow women to play in the ensemble. Oh, and so, you know, there's sort of discrimination writ large against women, let alone women who might be mothers like that full embodiment of being a woman. And so there's sort of the industry and women's place within it. But then there's also like, the family and the home life and that feeling like if you're, if you have any spare moment that's free. It should be like devoted to your kids and your family. And it's really hard to then say, No, I don't have to go and do that thing. Or it's okay for me to miss bedtime and be composing because that is also important to me. Yeah, I mean, for example, I've, I've been to concerts, and by myself and people who knew me, and they would sit, you know, make remarks like, Oh, you're missing bedtime. I'm so glad you came to the concert. Like, I'm so sorry. You had to miss bedtime. And like, I love missing bedtime. It is my least favorite part of day. I am so glad to be here. My husband is perfectly capable of putting our children to bed. Yeah, he does it most days, even if I'm home. Yeah, isn't that it's just interesting. Have the judgment. People just assume that it's like, that's what you should be doing your mom, that's what you should be doing. Like, hello, they have two parents like, exactly. Ah, it really frustrates me. And comments like that. They just don't go very far to help. You know, it's like, it sets you back. If you've if you've got if you were feeling a little bit funny, like, ah, you know, I probably wanted to do this or that or the other. And you got no, I'm going to do this. It's okay. And then someone makes a comment. And it just drags you straight back into that. Oh, no, I should have done that. Because now everyone thinks I'm a bad mother and bla bla bla. You know, exactly. There's a lot to be said for, for how other people's comments. How much of an impact it makes on moms. And yeah, I don't know. Yes, it's a big frustrating topic. That one really has really struggled with them. But I'd love to hear you say it's okay for me, for me to miss bedtime. Because there's other things that are important to you. It's like, I don't know. And you're right. It's hard to like even if you've made yourself a priority, and you've kind of laid aside the mom guilt and you've been able to engage with the activity. Those comments are so hurtful, because they regenerate that guilt with inside yourself, even if you've been able to successfully overcome it. And it's sort of like always lurking there in the background just like I am, I should be with my kids. or more, you know, like sort of the more simple guilt that's not even directly pertaining to your craft as an artist. Things like, Oh, I didn't pack them a perfect lunch, like I just threw stuff in their lunchbox, and I didn't write them a note on Valentine's Day. I just like, you know, that kind of thing. And there are these ridiculous expectations that moms are held up to. And I think it also helps to kind of find your tribe of moms, I have a couple of good mom, friends who they know that my house is a mess. They know that my laundry lives on my bedroom floor for a couple of days before it ever gets put away. And they're cool with it, because they also do the same thing. And it's about sort of letting down that facade of being like this perfect woman and just saying, like, No, I fail all the time in my household duties and taking care of my kids and my professional line, like I am not perfect, and have other women who can be comfortable with you and say the same thing is really, it's really heartening. And it it really helps the overall situation. Oh, yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. It's like, you just don't feel you feel quite comfortable just to be yourself and to you don't have to feel like you're gonna be judged by them. Like, you're all in it together. It's not a competition, exactly. And the other thing I love to talk about is identity about how your own identity changed. When you had your children when you became a mum, did you sort of go through a shift in that regard? Yes, because the composition kind of stopped for a good three years in there. And, and it was something I worried about, like am I ever gonna be able to write again, and maybe all my creative energy is just going into raising my kids. And that's where it's going to be. And I felt kind of lost. And I felt like I lost a part of myself for a while. And even even though I was making music and teaching and still engaged with the music community, it didn't feel the same, it didn't feel the same as creating myself and as actually composing. And it it took a lot of a lot of work to get back into composing a lot of fear a lot of judging myself, like, what if you were never any good at this to begin with, and it's gonna be so hard. And it actually the so the first piece I think I wrote after the birth of my second was a piece of music that my grandfather asked me to write. So my grandfather, had studied piano with me for a couple of years, when I was in Philadelphia, and that was, it was always really special to have these lessons with him. And he, he had this passage from a song that he wanted me to set to music. And and I took I took on the challenge didn't have anyone prepared to sing it. I was like, Okay, I'll just, this is an exercise for me. And I'll see if I can do this again. And I wrote this piece and ended up ended up getting performed at St. Davids church in Baltimore. But that was sort of the the baby step that I took back into composition. And I was also really fortunate that my, my mom is an artist. And I think there's something really special about having a mom who's an artist who is so supportive of my own creativity. And I'm sure that moms are supportive of creative daughters in all sorts of ways. But to have someone who's lived it themselves, is it's probably one of the best things that I have going for me because she knows how important it is. She knows how hard it is to place the priority on my creative work. And sort of right when I started getting back into composing, she would take my kids for a couple of hours during the week and she would say you are not allowed to clean your house hours, you are not allowed to go grocery shopping. I want to hear what you have done for you during those few hours. And to have to have that sort of account forced accountability. Really sort of got me back on the track of composing Again, and to test someone to see the value in what you're doing as well. So I've talked to some mums who have their their in laws, or even their own parents have sort of seen it as fluffing about, like, you're just, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's like, there's a lot of emphasis emphasis placed on the monetary value of what you're doing. And it's like, well, you're not really, you're not really working. So it's not that important. You know what I mean? Like, it's a real, it's a real, whole new ballgame when people don't see the value in what you're actually creating and adding to society and culture. And, you know, yeah, yeah, that that is a huge problem. And I mean, I don't know what it's like in Australia for how like arts funding works. But here in the States, it is, it is a mess in the United States. I know a couple of the countries in Europe have slightly better models and a little bit more support for musicians in the classical industry, but the way that arts are undervalued in our culture, and yet, so much money is made off of them, like in the pop music, industry, streaming services and all of the sort of exploitation that goes on. Yeah, absolutely. We have a big issue in Australia that that was certainly brought out through the whole pandemic situation that the sport, the sport side of Australia kept going, they made allowances for, like the footy teams to travel interstate, even though people weren't supposed to be traveling and everything kept going, except the arts. And people were just, you know, obviously losing their incomes, everything was falling to pieces. And it still hasn't been fully addressed that what happened to like, literally, arts are everywhere, like television, and radio, and everything that we pick up and use is being created by someone in some way. And it's like, we just don't value it. We just don't see the importance of it in our culture. And it's really, this is me off. Sorry. All this time, the free like people had concert scheduled to travel around Australia, but they couldn't because the the borders were closed. But yet hundreds of football players were traveling wherever they wanted to, and just like come on, really, really show the huge divide between what what are our culture values? incredibly disappointing. Yeah, it was interesting. You said about the different places in Europe I saw on the telly the other day that island might be might be introducing just like a universal income for artists. Yeah. God, how amazing would that be like, it would just you would just have the freedom to create, you wouldn't have to worry about how you're going to, you know, pay the bills or whatever, you can just imagine the explosion that's going to happen creativity in that area, just be amazing. mentioned all the people who leave the arts, so many talented, amazing artists, musicians, dancers, playwrights, they leave the arts because you can't make a living in it. And they're, you know, there's a point in your life where you have to decide, do I want to start a family and if I'm going to start a family, I want to be financially stable, and what does that mean for my creative practice? And I was really fortunate that, you know, my, my partner is a public school teacher, you know, neither of us are ever going to be no wealthy in our lifetime, but he has a stable job, he has really good health insurance. And so like the pressure was thankfully never on me to provide, you know, the big income and health insurance for our family. But, you know, I know I know plenty of couples who both of them are musicians and that is it's an incredibly hard life just because there's no stability within our industry. Yeah. Yep. And I've seen lots of people leave as a result which is you know, it's it's detrimental to all of us because we're losing out on on their talents and what talents they could pass on to students. You Yeah, yeah. The whole the whole industry is just poor for unfortunately. Yeah. I'm getting wound up just so frustrating to you Well, I have had some some interesting experiences recently with other women, composers reaching out to me primarily, you know, people who are like out of undergrad not necessarily in graduate school or, or are coming back to music after leaving a different career path behind. And I think there's a lack of meant During in our industry, women mentoring other women. And like I was very fortunate, I studied with John Tower. And when I went to graduate school I studied with Anna Wiesner. So you know, I've studied with these other women composers, but there's a lack of community. And I think it's important for for young women in particular, to be able to have conversations with, with someone and be able to talk about things like, you know, if I take this job overseas and move to, you know, move to a different country for a couple of years, because I'm following my boyfriend and I want to be with him. What does that mean for my career as a musician, and that's probably a conversation that a young woman might not be comfortable having with a male figure. They might be, you know, concerned whether they're going to be judged for that decision or whatnot. So, so that's been kind of interesting. And I definitely don't have the bandwidth for it right now. But I think in the in the future, I would, I would love to start some type of mentorship program specifically for for women, composers who are kind of like on the cusp of that sort of professional becoming a professional composer, they've left school behind. They've done all that all that hard work. And now it's how do I make this into a living for myself? How do I, if I'm going to start a family? How do I navigate that and my career at the same time? That's yeah, that is so great, you should definitely do that. I got I gotta wait a couple more years, I gotta get both kids in grade school. I have a few more hours in the day. But eventually, eventually, that's so valuable. That's just incredible. On that, though, did you have anyone around you that you could sort of lead off with the children side of things was there anyone in your sort of circle that was doing the same sort of thing as you, um, none of my musician friends had kids when I started having kids. So I was definitely kind of the odd one out there. And, and in grad school, I was the only woman in the program for quite some time. So there wasn't even someone going through grad school at the same time as me who was dealing with these issues. I have plenty of women friends outside of music, who have kids and families. But I think I think a lot of musicians wait until later on to start families because of that lack of financial stability. And I had a lot of help when our kids were young. My parents were in the same town as us. And as I mentioned before, my mom really recognized the need for me to still have some space to myself, even if my primary role at the time was staying home and taking care of the kids. So I've always had lots of family support with child care. Because that's the other thing in the United States, there's no child care via the government. You gotta wait until your kids are public school age, and then you can get rid of them for nine months of the year. Did I really just say get rid of them. I meant we can overlay save them goodbye, tearfully at the bus stop and welcome them home with a hug. You know, there's, there's no, there's no support for for families and for kids when they're preschool age. So thankfully, I've had family because sending my kids to daycare or childcare would have been a sort of a reckless financial decision to make because any money that I would have made, would have been completely negated by paying for childcare. So yeah, so that's kind of how I've had navigated the young, the young children thing and dealing with that and being creative at the same time. Yeah, I can definitely imagine people are gonna hear this and definitely get some take something from it. And I, I really hope that you do do your mentoring, because that's just so valuable. We'll just keep it'll keep the creative, everything going and people won't have to. And I think when you said about before about asking a man, a man's got such different opinions on that stuff, like they're not going to get, they're just going to get told some rubbish, you know, sorry. Yeah. It's not to say it's not and, and I'm sure there are wonderful, you know, male composers out there who would be great mentors for a young woman. But, you know, at least in my experience, there's something different about, you know, women's speaking to other women. And I just, well, I haven't quite finished up this program yet, but I've been fortunate to be mentored myself by it. To wonderful men as part of let's be spoken, which is a mentorship program specifically for women in the classical and jazz industry. And that that was really key in sort of getting my composing and my professional career back on track. And to realize in these big group sessions that we would have with all of us and the two leaders, Gina, and I wouldn't be, we would kind of come to these realizations that we're all struggling with these same things like, Oh, I have to do publicity photos. And I like how do I want those to look and it's so hard as a woman versus like, a man just throws on a suit and take some photos, and he's good to go. Women were like, is this going to be sexy? Is this going to make me appear sweet? Is this going to influence how people hear my music because it's just different as a woman. And And that program was really helpful. So there definitely are mentorship programs for women in the industry. But I am excited to eventually start something specifically for, for women to talk one on one with someone who's like cobbled together a career in composition, because it's so different than being a performer. Because that the model for how you create your income is just not there. 30 there's very little institutional support for it. Versus a performer, you can join an ensemble, you can be part of an orchestra, you can you can create your own tours, right? You don't even have to have management to do that. Whereas a composer, if my musics going to have a life, other people are going to be playing it. And that takes a lot of behind the scenes effort to make happen. Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's like there's not there's not a model that says, This is how you do it. You do this and then you do that. And then it's done. Like it's just yeah. Yeah, there you go. Now Good on you. I really enjoyed chatting with you, Eric. It's been a real pleasure talking with you. And I have missed bedtime. So thanks for your company today. 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4 Sarah Bailey Australian author 4 Article # 7 July 2023 By day I’m the Managing Director of a creative advertising agency called VMLY&R and in the time I have left over I’m a novelist. My role at VMLY&R sees me lead a team of 160 across our Melbourne and Sydney offices and my responsibilities centre around team performance, client relationships, commercial success and maintaining a high standard of creative excellence. I’ve been working in advertising since 2003 and I really enjoy it. I like the mix of creativity, business, and people management, and have been lucky to work on some incredible campaigns and initiatives over the course of my career. I’ve been writing seriously since 2016 and since then I’ve had five crime fiction books published, with two more contracted to delivered over the next two years. I’ve always loved to read and write and often toyed with the idea of trying to write a novel throughout my teens and twenties. I attempted starting to write a book a few times but life got in the way. It wasn’t until my early thirties that I decided that it was something I really wanted to do and so I set myself a goal to publish a book by my thirty-fifth birthday. I made a few people aware of my goal and started carving out time to write around work, on the weekends and afterhours during the week, plus I enrolled in a writing course as well as joining a few local writing organisations. Once I got started it took just over a year for me to get my first draft complete and then another year to secure an agent, a publisher and complete all of the required edits. My first novel was published the day after I turned thirty-five. I have three children, all boys. I had my first son Oxford when I was twenty-seven, my second son Linus when I was thirty and my third son Ripley five days before I turned forty-one. It’s interesting having a teenager, a tween and a newborn and I’m looking forward to navigating the full spectrum of parenting over the coming years! I’m currently on parental leave and re-adjusting to life with a newborn and two older children. I’d forgotten how primal the first few months are, and how centred on logistics. In some ways the days become smaller, and my focus feels very limited: it’s a continual loop of feeding, sleeping and admin tasks, but as was the case the last two times I was on parental leave, the creative part of my brain has kicked into overdrive, and I have a bunch of new ideas and a reinvigorated sense of ambition. I have edits due on my next book in July and another to write within the next twelve months. There are also a few other projects I’d like to explore before I return to work in 2024 so we’ll see how I go easing back into writing over the next few weeks. Typically, I write around my full-time work and whatever obligations I have with the kids. Usually this means I write on the weekends and one or two nights per week plus I try to ring-fence off at least a week over the Summer holidays. I try to use the time I have rather than bemoan the time I don’t, and consider every word I produce as progress. My full-time job is very demanding and does limit the time I have to write but I think it also provides a healthy perspective and in a counterintuitive way gives me more energy to dedicate to writing. Advertising is a very social, very inspiring fast-paced industry and I feel like being a part of it works to feed my other creative projects. Over the next few years I’d like my creative pursuits to be a bit more strategic and for the time I do have to be used more effectively so I’m working through what needs to change about my current approach to achieve this. I can’t deny that finding time to write is one of the biggest challenges in terms of my writing output, but I think that worrying about this can take on a life of its own if you let it feel like more of a blocker than it is. I’ve got to the point where I know it’s about being smart with the writing windows of time I can navigate around everything else. This might be early morning before work, in the car while I’m waiting at soccer practice, at a bar while I wait to meet a friend for a drink – anywhere I can get out my laptop really. I draw creative and time management inspiration from a lot of people, both high profile personalities and people I know in my everyday life. I love finding out how others fit in their art and I enjoy hearing about the challenges they face and what works for them. Regardless of profile, I think that most creative people juggle their projects alongside work or family responsibilities, illness or study, and while I know it’s often hard, I think this tension tends to make the end result all the more satisfying. I am lucky to have a supportive family who regularly step in to look after the kids when I’ve needed time to finish a draft or finalise edits and have looked after them when I’m at writing events, as well as a supportive manager at work who has allowed me to take the occasional day off to promote my book. The freedom this support allows is priceless and enables me to balance and enjoy the competing priorities in my life. "Having three sons I’m especially conscious of them having a healthy attitude toward working women, motherhood and fatherhood and parents making time for their art." Becoming a parent has influenced my writing in a few different ways. In practical terms I think the forced career pause of maternity leave gave me time to reflect on what I had achieved up to that point, it prompted me to think about my unrealised ambitions and to dig into what makes me happy. This self-review absolutely led to my decision to actively pursue writing. From an emotional point of view, I think that motherhood has given me an insight into the unique intimacy of a parent/child relationship and the ability to realistically bring that to life in my writing. I think parenting has also given me more scope to consider things from the perspective of a child and that also helps me to craft realistic stories and scenarios. I actively reject the concept of mother guilt and have spoken about it regularly with my older children over the years. I figured that if I openly communicated the concept with the people who were likely to make me experience the guilt, it was less likely to manifest and become insidious. As a result of these conversations my kids understand how important my work is to me, and how important my writing is to me and that I have hopes and dreams and passions, just like they do. We talk about how critical finding purpose is for everyone and that sometimes my work will mean I can’t be at a school activity or a sporting event and that’s okay. Ultimately I think that everyone is doing their best with the time and flexibility they have. I make hundreds of decisions each week about where to direct my attention and I don’t want to spend too much time fretting about the division. If I intuitively feel like one of my kids needs some extra support I lean in, but I have no qualms about letting them know if I have an important writing deadline to meet or have to travel for work. They understand I have responsibilities beyond parenting and their dad and grandparents are and we talk about what this might mean in practical terms I don’t see ‘me time’ as selfish, I see it as critical for me to be a good parent and a happy human. I felt like a fully formed person prior to becoming a parent and I don’t feel like I’ve fundamentally changed since having kids. I see having kids as a new role so in that regard I think it adds more depth but doesn’t change what was already there. It’s very important to me that I continue to work toward my goals and pursue things that I find rewarding and I feel that would be the case whether I had children or not. I ensure setting time aside for making art is never done in an apologetic way, it simply needs to be scheduled in like everything else. I talk about my interests and book ideas with my kids and encourage them to share theirs with me, I think it’s nice for family members to know what floats everyone’s’ boat and to be a part of the desire and excitement, and to share in the ups and downs, Having three sons I’m especially conscious of them having a healthy attitude toward working women, motherhood and fatherhood and parents making time for their art. I think I will always write in some capacity. I enjoy the craft and find it to be a helpful way to organise my thoughts. I particularly enjoy creating characters and stories and find the process of novel writing extremely rewarding. It’s also very time-consuming and takes me over twelve months to develop a first draft and another twelve months to get the book publishing-ready, so for this reason I’m not sure if I would write books if there was no financial payment. I’m not sure I could justify dedicating that much time to something that did not have commercial value, especially not at this stage of my writing career and considering my current financial position. "They understand I have responsibilities beyond parenting and their dad and grandparents do, and we talk about what this might mean in practical terms I don’t see ‘me time’ as selfish, I see it as critical for me to be a good parent and a happy human." My mum has always worked and only just retired this year after fifty years in the field of nursing so I’ve always been exposed to the idea that women work and can pursue a meaningful career. While my father was the primary earner it was never questioned that my mother worked. She actually completed further study and secured an additional degree in HR when I was I was young, and I remember feeling inspired by her desire to continue learning and improving her prospects in the workplace. From a young age I was aware that my dad’s job was the big job and that he was away from the home more often but I simultaneously knew that my mother was ‘needed’ at work, just like she was needed at home and the fact that she worked just like my dad did I’m sure is part of why I place a lot of value – both financial and emotional – on women being an essential part of every modern workplace. My next book, the fourth in the Detective Gemma Woodstock series, will be published in March 2024 with Allen & Unwin. I’m currently finalising the new Gemma Woodstock book and will complete various editing milestones until it’s published in March 2024. Then I’ll be working on a new manuscript, a sequel to crime thriller, The Housemate. I’m also working on a few other creative projects including a rom-com mystery concept as well as being part of a writing team on the screenplay of my first novel The Dark Lake. Contact Sarah Website: sarahbaileyauthor.com Instagram: @sarah_bailey_author BACK