Monika Crowley Irish print maker, oils artist and visual artist S2 Ep27 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Monika Crowley, a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin, Ireland, and a mother of 2. Monika spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home & the changing expectations of modern motherhood. Monika uses mundane objects in a symbolic, transformative manner whereby they become totems & talismans of the past. Monika strives to capture the essence of a mothers guilt, the feeling of being torn in two and the resentment from the other self. A decade on, her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves Mother/Artist. Her work walks a line between anger & love, between despair & joy, her explorations of the everyday are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also have a little chat about the Irish horse racing industry, of which Monika's father and her family were a significant part of. **This episode contains discussions around Cancer, grief and loss of a parent** View Monika's work Space Invaders , - https://www.instagram.com/p/CPlzt6pnaCX/ Motherload - https://www.instagram.com/p/CUki0cdsH9-/ Compart Mental Isation - https://monikacrowley.com/blog/ Monika's website - https://monikacrowley.com/ instagram - https://www.instagram.com/monikacrowley/ Watch a murmuration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4f1r80RY Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. My guest on today's episode is Monica Crowley. Monica is a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin in Ireland and a mother of two. Monica has spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home and the changing expectations of modern motherhood. monarchy uses mundane objects in a symbolic transformative manner, whereby they become totems and talismans of the past. Earlier Prince had their starting point in motherhood as a rite of passage. They served as a memoir comm warning about nostalgia for retro culture at a time when mothers were not expected to juggle jobs and families. Monica strives to capture the essence of a mother's guilt, the feeling of being torn into and the resentment from the other self. A decade on her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves, mother and artist. Her work walks a line between anger and love, between despair and joy. Her explorations of the every day, are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times, finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also chat a little today about Monica's connection to the Irish racing industry. This episode contains discussion around grief and loss. Welcome along today, Monica. It's a pleasure to have you all the way from Ireland. Thank you very much for coming on. Thanks, Alison. And thanks for doing it at my local time when the kids were in schools. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have people constantly opening the door behind me. I can understand that. Now. It's pretty good here. It's almost eight o'clock at night. So it's a pretty good time for me to so the kids will be off to bed and I won't have to worry about doors at my end too. So we're about in Ireland, are you? I'm in Dublin. So it's gray and cold out my window. We had a bit of snow last week, but it seems to be hopefully brightening up this week a little bit. Oh, I'm jealous because we don't get so where I am. It just doesn't. It's not cold enough. And I've spent well I shouldn't say I'm jealous today because I've spent the day swimming and a little bit sunburn you might be able to see. But I never had the story. Like it's something I've never, never done been in the snow so well. Unfortunately, Irish snow is generally wet and sleety every now and again. We get you know decent snow but it's not. It's not a country for skiing snowmen every now and again. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Share with us. What sort of art that you make. So I suppose up to recently have been predominantly a printmaker. I used to work in advertising and design. So I think printmaking was a really natural step for me because they kind of understood, you know, color mixing and separations and plates and that kind of technical aspect of the process. So and also because I was back then, I was renting. I didn't have studio space. So being part of a print, making studio I'm a member of the Black church print studio. And it was a good way to have a place where I could go and work and keep all my stuff and keep my art practice going. While I was still working as well, so, yeah, yeah, in the last couple of years, I've, my practice has kind of changed a bit, I suppose, because of lockdown printmaking, and go into my print studio was a lot harder the studio was closed up. So I did a lot more drawing at home and painting. So I'm, I'm actually doing a lot more oil painting at the moment. Yeah, that's cool. What do you prefer to do? Do you like your, your printmaking better? Or? I don't know, are you sometimes feel like there's this hierarchy in the art world stuff. I'm like, you sometimes hit a wall and you go, you know, am I getting that response, because I'm a printmaker, and the value of printing is perceived as lower. So I, you know, I sometimes come up against it. And I find it quite frustrating that the value of a print even though it's like quite a hard technical process to do, somebody described at one says, like, totally over complicating the process of creating art is so as I think, I suppose, as well, being able to join lock downs, and all I've been able to keep my practice going and being able to draw and paint at home, made me realize, you know, sometimes, actually, that remove of going to a print studio. While it's nice, it's nice to be able to get up in the morning and sneak an hour before the kids get up in, you know, in my home studio. So, and I guess then if, if you have an idea anytime you can sort of act on it, rather than have to keep it till you can physically get to the Fluffies. Yeah, exactly. And I suppose you keep your notebooks going, although I do find myself, you know, sneaking upstairs and saying, I just have to go do something and running upstairs and getting stuck into something. Because now I can. And, you know, I, I tell the kids, I'll be back in 10 minutes, you know, do your homework, and I come back 45 minutes later, an hour later. They're watching TV and the homework isn't done. And I'm like, oh, god, okay. It's very hard to, to thread that balance. I think one of the things people have talked about on your podcast before, and it probably comes up a lot is that struggle between when you're in the mother role, you constantly you never switch off being an artist to your head, you constantly frustrated that wanting to get back to your canvas. But, you know, when you're working at your canvas, if you can hear your children in the vicinity, your mother had never switches off either. So there's just this constant struggle for space in my brain, I feel. Yeah. So you said you had the notebooks is that something a tool that you use to sort of to help, obviously, to make notes, but to bring yourself into this space and say, right, I'm gonna make a note, then I can, you know, relax my brain, because now I've got that written down. I can move on sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Because you're constantly getting distracted and interrupted, and then when I go to sit down or get my students like, Oh, my God, what, what was that? Like, I had this flash of genius. Now, I can't remember it. So, and if I don't have my notebook to hand, like, I will use my phone to document it, or I will use notes a lot on my phone as well. You know, I take photographs and and notate it and then I can come back to it. At least I've recorded it, but I do. I do think keep a notebook. So is it a good practice? So kind of, then you can make sense as you. You see things develop and you go oh, yeah, actually that came from way Back, when I actually have a note of that, it will could take months to act on something that they've actually written down. So that would be fascinating actually, at the end of a project, and then you've got this record, and you can browse back through and go, Oh, yeah, like you said, you can see where it started. Or you might even see something and go, Oh, I sort of, you know, I might have bypassed that, but now I'm interested in that, or, you know, it's, it'd be awesome to have that that record. I worked in advertising and design for about 20 years, when I, when I was a kid, I just always wanted to go to art college, I had, which I got to go to art college, but I had to persuade my parents that, you know, I would get a job at the end of this. So I studied, I actually went to art college studying Industrial Design, which is product design. Yeah. And, you know, until my mother Oh, I mean, practically engineering. She, if she did that, then I kind of segwayed and took a very, you know, a long route through art college. And I actually finally graduated in Visual Communications, which meant I went into graphic design and then into advertising from there. So, so that, but at the same time I was working, and it was creative. And it was a really good grounding. Like, I don't regret the course, or the, the journey my practice has taken because it's really good grounding in notebooks and research and because you always have sketchbooks on the go, and you're always sketching out ideas, and, you know, and having to articulate ideas and concepts. So that's, and I even, like, even when you're designing, I always felt there had to be thinking behind it and concept behind us. So and that's how my art practices as well. I find it very hard to do a picture that doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. It's just, it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe, I don't know, is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, it started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took and I think when I became pregnant with my first child, it just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished, where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit Battery tech Yeah? I wanted to ask you flooding leading to a beautifully there's there was a piece that I saw on your Instagram account that you called Space Invaders. And I won't try and describe it, I'll let you describe it. Can you just share the background for that and what the inspiration was for that for that pain? Yes. So that was a print actually, I have, I think I have a sketch up on my wall, you can kind of see up there behind me. So that actually was a project that stemmed from the initial lockdown, and I was doing a lot of work at home. And I eventually took over the children's playroom, which is where I am now. And it became my home studio. So all the shelves around me, which is now full of my stuff was was initially full of the kids toys, and it's where they came and played. So I set up a desk here and I started working here. But you know, the kids, there was this constant kind of battleground, I saw my desk as this battleground, like I would leave to go down and make dinner or whatever, and then come back and I would find some of the children's toys like propped up like, obviously, on my desk, either abandoned, or like deliberately put there as almost like, some kind of protest that you undertake, they claim back on their face. Yeah, exactly. It became this disputed territory where, you know, it's like, that's our room. No, it's my room now. So if it was this, so the print behind me there, it's, I think I call that one cutting ties. And it was I came back and my son's toy Hulk fist was balancing on top of my scissors on my desk. And I was like, on it, there's just something so aggressive, but yet so playful about it, you know, and that was you know, and I have another one that I call mother's bottle and it was my child my daughter's doll naked, because they don't know what the clothes from my children's dolls just they never seem to have them on. And, and had knocked over my water bottle and spilled water across my desk. And I just, you know that it kind of brought up so many different kinds of images and emotions like that doll very much represents my daughter, and even just the water bottle in a way kind of represents me and it's that whole being torn into of having these two cells that are constantly vying for your attention. Your art it's that struggle I mentioned earlier, where half your brain is thinking about ideas and half your brain is thinking about what's for dinner. Let's see at the exact same moment. Yeah, it never stops so going back to your early days when you say like you had to convince your mom to to let you do your study. Were you always a very creative child growing up? Yeah, I think so. Well, it's I always loved painting and always loved art and always wanted to be an artist. My family, I live in Dublin now but I grew up down in Kilkenny. And my mom always had this thing my family my dad was a racehorse trainer. And we I have five sisters. So the six girls, we all worked with horses. is all the time. But my mum was always like we're always having broken arms and broken legs and ending up in hospital. And she used to say to us, I don't care what you do when you grow up, you'll have your own jobs and your own lives. I don't want you to work in horse racing, or art of this of the six girls for have ended up in horse racing. And two, I'm an artist and my other sister has an art gallery. So I think I think she could just see the way things were going, like, really early on, and she tried to redirect us. But I think once your brain is set on something, you know, you're going to end up there. If you're driven enough, no matter how much you're kind of diverted, you're going to weave back around to what you really want. So yeah, that's it. There's there's no stopping that. That inner passion. I don't think it's just an even if you try to try and stop it. It's yeah, it still tries to creep out does that. Yeah. Do you? You mentioned your children a little bit too. Can you tell us how many children you have a little bit about your family? Yeah, I have two children, a 10 year old daughter. She's the eldest and a seven year old son. And yeah, they're, they're great. They're the at a really good age, I think. And I, I always, when I was younger, I didn't ever know. I couldn't ever imagine me with babies. Because I was the youngest of my family, I'd never even held a baby. When I was about 16. I went to France and worked as an au pair, where I looked after a baby, it was my first time ever even holding a child. Even I wasn't one of those people in school who went you know, as the younger groups came into school that I would go and oh, the new kids are in Yeah, I actually really didn't care about anybody younger than myself. I always wanted to hang out with people older than me. So I think that's why when I was pregnant with my first child, it was kind of traumatic of like, I don't think I can do this. I could see myself with older children, but never with babies. But obviously, like now, 10 years on, I realized that everybody's just learning as they go along. And you know, babies are quite forgiving. They love you. No matter how terrible you are as a mother. Thank goodness for that. Yeah, so do you, when you when you had your first child, your daughter, where you work while you're doing your art, like a lot at the time, and did have to sort of stop? Or did you manage to keep going? How did it sort of work? Weirdly, I think it amped up a bit at the time, because I mentioned earlier. I, my art had been about traveling and things like that. And then suddenly this fear of you know, motherhood and what was expected of me. And, you know, I worked full time and all my spare time was given to my art. And now I was going to be a mother and working. So working motherhood on art. I was like, how do the three things fit into each other. But like I said, I needed the therapy, almost of doing the art. So my first solo show is is was called domestic. And it was about when my mom found out I was pregnant. She sent me her recipe for brown bread. Actually, she ran me and said, I'll give you my recipe for gram bread now and I was like, oh my god is that who will I will become this person who makes bread. And I just couldn't get my head around it. Because I'm a terrible Baker and I still am. So I just said no, I can't even deal with you've given me this recipe over the phone. So she wrote it down and sent it to me in a letter. So I had this letter. And that was the starting point for doing this whole series. called domestic, which was about the fear of becoming a mother. But it was centered around, I always use kind of ordinary objects to kind of trigger emotion. And you know, this kind of sense of recognition yourself like, like, oh, so I use the recipe for brown bread. And I did make the brown bread once. really badly. No, it was edible. We'll just leave it at that. But isn't that interesting? That's like, your mom sort of had it was almost like this initiation. It's like, okay, now you're allowed to know these these things you weren't allowed to know before. This Fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not that I wasn't allowed to know them. It's like, she just thought I would have no interest in nowhere, which I did. I didn't have any interest in making brown bread. And then when I was told, Oh, now you'll probably want to make brown bread. I was like, oh, so me as a person, I'm going to change completely. Yeah. Okay. I had never even thought that. But actually, I didn't, I never became this person who made brown bread. So I can sort of like, if you're already feeling a little bit anxious about everything. And then to get that and to have that, that moment of going, Oh, hang on a sec, I'm going to these all these changes are going to happen. Like that would have been quite startling, like, not very reassuring. Yeah, like the whole pregnancy and your body changing and all that that's a very physical and normal and well kind of documented kind of process that you can google and go, Okay, that's totally normal. What I wasn't prepared for I think, was just the avalanche of advice, and all these conflicting things that people are telling you and telling you about the person you will become. And I was like, I don't want to change I still want to be me, you so can I not be me, an artist and a mother and still do my job. But, of course, some things do change, but some things don't. I think it's so it's so important to to keep your pre pre pray mother self, it's like, it's so important. And yeah. It's even, you know, my daughter, she keeps pointing out to me that I'm a decade now. So like, I, I can now look at the whole, the whole thing is still very fresh to me a decade later, I still very clearly remember. But the trauma of that change that was happening. And I still, I'm still struggling with my identity, like 10 years later, of how much of me is me? And how much do I give over? And even that guilt of like, am I holding myself? Too much of myself back? When I'm with my kids, I throw myself into it. And you know, I love them. And I love them, Tibet and have great fun with them. Like we have great crack, that really at a lovely age at the moment where, you know, they're interested in things and their brains are just fascinating, like, like my daughter is cleverer than I am. When we were locked down there for the last 10 days with COVID. She learned how to do a Rubik's Cube, something I have never been able to do. And I found myself last night like googling it and doing a step by step guide and I swore I wanted to throw the thing in the bin and I was like, How does she do this? She's 10 Like she has worked a site and I can't. COVID the pandemic started or whatever. I actually took a step back from work. And the work was always an important part of my identity as well. I was a creative director and an advertising agency when all this hat and I just did took a step back and needed to be with the children. And it was just this, like a one stop, it was kind of taken away, I realized how much of myself I was giving to work, actually. And when it was just divided between my art and my children, I actually saw that that's where a lot of the struggle was happening. But also, I realized how much of myself I'd been given away to work. And because I suppose also your job is creative. It sucks a lot of the creative energy out of us so, but I still, I feel like now I have a much better life balance where it's, you know, probably I was gonna say 50% Children 50% Or it's but it's probably 70% Children 30% ours if I was to be totally honest. With the guilt then, do you ever feel like the pool between, like, do you ever consciously have that thought I shouldn't be doing this art now. Because the kids are meant to be doing their homework and I need to check on it. Like, does it feel like that? That Oh, all the time, all the time. It never stops. If when I'm doing one thing, I feel like I should be doing the other. If and then, you know, then I have like a my different kind of selves start to resent each other. You know, I feel like there's a constant struggle in my head, I have to say, where if I'm in the zone painting. And I'm just thinking, Oh, I just I just need half an hour. And I hear myself saying that the children are knocking at the door. Because they're hungry, or, you know, I want to do this or can you open that for me or you know, and I'm like, Just give me 30 more minutes, I swear, I'll be done in 30 minutes. And you know, and then when I'm i if i But if I don't get that time to do my art, I find myself just being this horrible, angry person that I don't like, you know that. You know, even though my seven year old will come and hug me he really knows how to defuse my pent up frustration, he'll come and hug me and go, Oh, Mommy, Mommy, I love you. Please don't be angry mommy, which he sees as a whole other person. And it's angry mommy who comes out when I when I just feel like I haven't been able to get into my studio and do anything. I feel. Actually, I'm just a much nicer person. When I have my art practice running smoothly as well. Like some days you really feel like you're winning and oh my god, I'm totally killing this. I'm like doing everything. You know that like, yeah, I am the woman who has it all. Oh my god, this is incredible. And, unfortunately, it's where those days are rare. But for for the most part, I can resolve the fact of you know, okay, today, I didn't spend as much time in my studio or, you know, things just didn't work out when I was there. But, you know, tomorrow will be a better day, I've become a lot better. I think actually motherhood teaches you the US you know, as babies, you're always told, you know, tomorrow will be better, you know, and not pits reset on everything. So I bring that to my own life. You know, I'm just gonna sleep on this and reset and in the morning everything will be better. So yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I remember having those feelings of when like in the middle of the night I'd just be thinking that's okay. The sun will come up in the morning and we'll just start again and just see how this makes one goes and yeah, that's a really good way of looking at you know, yeah, I don't like and you and your expectations I suppose around what what you want Want to get done and what you life allows you to get done, I suppose. Yeah. And even like just looking at children and IVIG can go to bed being these like really angry and you know, you're having a big row about something. And the next morning, they've totally forgotten about it and you're like, okay, okay, I suppose I better just forget about that too. And move on. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's so true Yep. Wanted to ask you about, there's a series that you did the compact compart mental causation. So it's spilling over the three lines. All right, this was like, personally, my my pop that passed away. Just recently, he was 1994. And when I saw the things like, I just like the birds and I don't know, it's, it was like I was meant to see it because he had pigeons. And so all these all the birds that you had, sorry, I'm talking about this, people won't know what I'm talking about. So I'll put a link up. And then the window. It was just I got really like smacked in the heart by that it was just incredibly moving. Thank you again. And like, like I said earlier, a lot of my work becomes, it comes out of me working through emotions. And just at the beginning of the pandemic, my dad passed away. Again, he was 92. It was just before his birthday is 92nd birthday, actually. And he'd been sick for a while. So my six six girls and my mom, we were down there with him when he died. And there were a couple of days where we were kind of waiting for the inevitable to happen. It was really kind of torturous, long drawn out kind of fairly traumatic, actually the whole thing. And we sat in his room and the these murmurations just started in the evening, which we didn't really have grown up when I was a kid murmuration of starlings. And it became a kind of a thing that we did, we'd go out and watch the birds and then come back in. And it's funny, like you mentioned that your your dad kept pigeons. My dad actually had this like, like, because we had racehorses, he had this thing that the birds were like eating the horses feed and shipping and the horses he used to have this ongoing battle with keeping the birds away so it was just weird that all these birds like that this became a thing and Mike my childhood growing up I won't go into the graphic stories of what happens on farms when people are trying what they kind of considered to be pest control. But my dad was not very nice to birds, I think. And we lived out in the country and it was just he just wanted them away. So it just became this weird kind of thing as I watched him die to see the birds flying around. They just seem to all most come back and I don't know I don't know if it was something that I don't even think it was his Spirit coming back as birds I don't know Was there some kind of karma in but but even even just to kind of watch the birds from his room. So it became very represent representative of him and the idea of compartmentalization was I like obviously I loved my Dad, and we all idolized him for that you could in depth, we kind of put away all the things that were bad about the person, like he wasn't a saint, and he was a tough man to grow up with me. I think he made us all quite tough. But, you know, nobody talked about any of the bad stuff at the funeral. It was all very, wasn't he great? And I think that's a very Irish thing to do. Or maybe it was, it's just something we deal with. In grief, you have to put things in boxes and kind of put them away and go, do you know what, right now I'm just not going to deal with that, I'm just going to deal with this little piece of how I'm feeling. So that's, that was how that I did a window done in the black church print studio, a little display where I actually printed a murmuration on a downstairs bathroom window from my house where my dad used to watch the birds and decide to go out and kill some of them like, to be perfectly honest. And so I actually brought a new thing into my practice as well, where it was like printing on find objects and kind of moving off paper and editions and stuff like that as well. Yeah. So it'd be just like experimenting with with things. Yeah, with materials. And just, I suppose I never really felt the need to. I think that the part of me that isn't a printmaker is I don't need to do, you know, 10 perfectly executed prints in that they are absolutely identical. For me, it's the process of printing and the process of bringing to life an idea that kind of exercises, the feelings and the emotions. And that's my therapy. And once it's done, it's done. And I find it really hard to revisit, I could never reprint anything I've printed before. Once it's done, it's gone. And yeah, that emotion has left me almost Yeah. I had cancer a couple of years ago, and some of my work was was about that. Just, I suppose in terms of me using my art as a kind of a therapy to work through stuff. So that actually was, again, a huge part of recovery. From in fact that I did a show at the time called treatment, which was obviously just coming out of treatment, and it was even kind of linked to this whole desire for things that comfort you like and looking at my children and I think at the time I was constantly like, giving them treats as well. And so the again, the words often the kind of Lincoln spark things in my head and and, you know, whereas at the time when I was sick, I couldn't really stomach sweet things, but I was craving them but like I'm feeding them to my children as a way of comforting them or compensation that mommy couldn't be there because she was in hospital or whatever. So so that was just, yeah, I think I'm tired of treatment about two years and I finished in early 2018. So gosh, four years. Good for you. Do your children. That's sort of a two part question. So your children are aware of your artmaking and your tuition? And if that's the case, is it important for you that they see that they see what you're doing and what you're putting out to the world? Yeah, I certainly don't keep them away from us. Like, on occasion, I've bought them to my print studios well, and I suppose I don't sit down and explain my work to them. But they're definitely they know that they're in the work. And sometimes I kind of talked to them about it. Like the piece I mentioned earlier motherlode where I felt I came across as quite dark and negative towards parenting. It was important to me that my children knew that, like, I love them. Absolutely, wholeheartedly. And that it was about the the accumulation and the drudgery of the little small tasks that that just get on top of you that it's not the mothering part, it's the all the little things that build and build and build. That, you know, so it's important that they know how much I love them. And that if my work deals with the network and negative aspects of motherhood, that, that it's not about them. It's about the role. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's not direct reflection on them personally. Yeah, absolutely. And do you sort of feel like, it's good for them to say that, like that identity, again, that, that mums can be more than, say, just a mom, because whenever just mom, but in your children's eyes, is it? Do you feel like it's good for them to see you, you know, leaving the home and doing your thing? And, you know, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I would hate if, like, when I'm talking about my art, I refer to it as work as well, since I left advertising and leaving the house to like, earn a wage. I suppose I did kind of feel like my art isn't necessarily earning a wage. But I refer to it as my work, because I would hate my children to differentiate between the fact that my husband works. And that his work has more value and more importance, because he gets paid for it. So there's always this balance of my art definitely does come second, as work in the house, because, you know, it can get pushed and deadlines are a little bit more flexible, and we need to pay the bills. But it's important for me that they understand that my work is important to absolutely, he put that beautifully. That was very well put. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that I refer to my music now I say, I'm going to do some music work. Because it's like, I it's so important to me. And it's not just um, fluffing around and having a bit of fun. Like, I do love it. And it's fun, but it's like, I want to get something done. I'm trying to achieve something. So to me, it's like it is work. It's labor, you know? So yeah, I've started constantly calling that. I don't know, when the kids have noticed. Yeah, but I think it just it does, it reinforces something, a degree of worth on what we're doing. And that it's not like he said, just me playing and having a nice time. Like it actually it is work it is hard to it would be very easy just to sit down and do nothing when you know, the kids are in bed or distracted with something else. So it would be easy not to do work. But the fact that you compel you're compelled to go in and work out your music and I'm compelled to go work out my art. You know, it's and I think a work a work ethic is also important. So you know, I want the guys to know that I when they go to school, I get up every day and I'm like in my studio working until I become mom and have to go pick them up and do the after school activities and stuff. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, absolutely. Literally Yep. I can't let you go without asking you about your connection to your racing family, which I did Google actually. It's pretty impressive that your sister married Aiden O'Brien. And this is Joseph O'Brien, who's where to milk and converse. I do have my nephew Joseph Joseph O'Brien. He is called Joseph after my dad's. And he trains on the hill at home in Kilkenny where my dad trained his horses. So basically, my when my sister and Marie my eldest sister got married, she married Aiden, who worked for another trainer Jim Bolger. When they got married, he moved over to us in Kilkenny, and they, my dad kind of said, Okay, you can train on, you know, my gallops and gave them kind of half of the so they built their own stables and they we all trained together. So my dad was still training at the time, and he's super competitive. So he, you know, obviously Aiden is pretty competitive as well. So, actually, my dad had handed my license his license to my sister, who then gave it transferred to Aiden when she got pregnant, which was a she was pregnant, like, very young, she thinks she was 23. So, you know, I think then, my dad just couldn't, like, cope with the fact that, you know, Aiden was in a training on the hill, even though Aiden was like, he wasn't well known back then he kind of made his name then training with my dad, and well in competition to my dad. So, like, the dinner table was always, you know, quite funny. And, you know, then my next sister married a national hunt jockey, travel Oregon. Then my next sister had an art gallery and then my next sister married paths Mullen, yep. And she was well known racehorse trainer as well. And Pat was champion, flat jockey here like, God, I don't know, 10 times in a row. And then my twin sister is married to a jockeys agent and racing pundit on a racing channel here. So that's so my, my husband's like our family gatherings like people just talk core. So I like that horse racing is always on. Probably on about three different TVs in the house. You know, when when we get together like that, people just talk horses. Yeah, I can imagine it'd be bad. Like if you didn't enjoy the trophy, just to sit there and take it. Yeah. I mean, I worked with the horses myself, like up until I was about 18 or 19. I had a jockeys license I wrote as an apprentice. Oh, yeah. But I think a lot of it was just trying to prove that I could do it. I really did not have the interest or passion for horses, like I know, I loved horses. It's not something I yeah, for the industry. I didn't want to spend my life in horse racing. Yeah. Is it really scary writing, like, riding them that fast? I'm sorry, that just came in and no, yeah, it's, do you know what it's actually it's not the speed you're going us. For me? It was the sense of control I. They're, like, it's this muscle of machine that you have to be in control of, and I just never felt in control of the horse completely. And, again, it was it's kind of a battle of wills as to whether the horse is allowing you to control it and you know, I always felt like if they weren't allowing me to, so I used To get run away with all the time I was kind of small and light, so and the amount of times like the horse would just take off at me and I like that is the scary part of it of not being in control. So I it's funny I yeah, I ended up in hospital several times with head injuries and broken legs and actually one of the pieces we discussed earlier one of my art pieces, that's the water bottle knocked over with the dead baby doll. The words bottle actually is a racing term. It's like a jockeys bottle is your bravery. So I would often like have like said to my sisters, no, I've totally lost my bottle. I can't do this anymore. A year. So in a weird way, like bottle is courage and bravery. And and that was the kind of a phrase that was in my head when I was doing that art piece. And it probably comes from my racing background Yeah. Can I ask you what you've got coming up? If you're working on anything in particular? I mean, with the COVID restrictions, I don't know if that means you can't do shows or anything. But if you got anything you want to mention. Yeah, well, I was part of a group show last year that I organized with seven other artists and I did a piece called motherlode for that, which was it was again, one off piece, it was four canvases that where I repeated these three objects over and over and over again to show this kind of build of I suppose the build of the daily burden of motherhood and parenthood. Yeah, that kind of falls to us. And when I stood back and looked at it, I had the pieces quite gray and blue and dark. And it felt like, you know, that was definitely something that was coming out of the pandemic and didn't really feel like me. So I actually have made a conscious decision where I want to do something that redresses that balance of that last piece that I feel, you know, came out of me, but maybe miss represents where I am now, you know, I've been working on a body of work called the kitchen sink, which, again, sounds depressing, and was coming from waking up every morning and making coffee and looking into my sink and going, Oh, my God, you know, there was always like some kind of dirty dishes in there that never either made it into the washing machine or were put in after the washing machine was put on. And it was like building this resentment and frustration in me. And I thought, I need to redress my thinking here and start thinking, and I started seeing the kitchen sink as an art project. So I would look in the sink and see what was in there. And it would become a memory and nice memory of the meal we'd had the evening before. So I started sketching what was in the thing, or taking photographs and sketching it later. And then working out. You know, just while I was doing that, thinking about the meal we had and the conversations we had. And suddenly it became this beautiful thing where again, I use objects to kind of symbolically word these objects in a sink became this symbolic diary entry of my life almost so can't wait. Well, it's something I've been working on for the last few months. And now I'm also just about to I was supposed to move into a new studio, which I have temporarily with Randall Arts at a local arts organization that I work with. So I'm going to take the back room here. It's an it's an initiative I want to bring to other businesses that rooms that are lying empty for businesses that they could do short term art artists residencies in there. So I'm doing a kind of a pilot scheme, I'm going to be moving into the back room of this building today, and start painting from there for a month or two months or six weeks and see how it goes. So that's kind of excited. Yeah, I'm a little bit terrified of moving to somewhere a bit more public as well, you kind of have that fear of exposing yourself of like, because not every piece works actually. Okay. And you're like going, Oh, no, that's crap, I just have to put that facing the wall. So nobody ever sees that again. Or, you know, like I am used to being in my print studio, where other people are there, and you're meeting other people. So but I, I know, was part of this, moving down to this temporary art studio. At the end of this residency, I plan to do kind of an open day in the studio and invite people in and talk about my work. Because I mean, there has to be, I wanted to be of benefit to the arts organization, as well. So there has to be kind of a quid pro quo. So so I'm interested to see how how it will affect my work. And, you know, will I even be able to work there? I'm kind of slightly terrified. It's a new adventure, I have to say, well, there you go. It'll be an interesting challenge. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, it's important to keep moving forward and do stuff that terrifies you. I try to I try to not shy away from things that scare me. So I always say to my, I always say to my daughter, you know, being brave is being scared, but doing it anyway. That's so true, isn't it because you're allowed to feel scared, but then you have to do it. Anyway. That's actually a quote that one of the girls I interviewed early in season one said said the same thing. He said, You can be scared you can be terrified out of out of your mind. But you have to do it anyway. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been lovely, was great. And it's, it's fascinating. I'm really interested in the fact that, like, sometimes we don't, I think in the art world as well, like, there's this concept of, you know, I don't want to be a mommy artists kind of talking about motherhood. And I made a conscious decision not to shy away from us, because I just, I like, it's who I am. Some people do their work, and it's escapism from, you know, the drudgery and the mundane and the every day, but I I kind of my work is my life in a way. So I just, it's a record of it or so. So I feel like it's, maybe I talk about it too much. But I think I think we don't talk about it enough. Honestly, I just think I think you're right, people have this stigma that you can't have the two coexisting. It's like, if you want to be serious, you got to just put all that to one side and just, you know, pretend it's Yeah, but it's innate. It's a part of you. And it's, you can't help but have it influence what you do, whether you realize it or not, but I think but yeah, it's maths even. Yeah, like, I remember even in work in advertising, you know, some people would, it would almost be taboo to say that you had to leave work to pick up your children, like people almost pretended they weren't parents. That's scary, isn't it? And I just feel like this is like a huge part of who I am. And I can't deny it or pretend it doesn't exist and why would I want to? So I kind of make no apologies for my art dealing with motherhood and it's nice to see that there. I see different organizations around the world. I'm a member of a group in Edinburgh called Spilt Milk. And we're again, it's a support network for artists who are mothers. And not all the work deals directly with motherhood, but it's just, it's interesting. It really makes me feel part of a community. I don't have that direct support in Dublin or in Ireland. But I find the support internationally, more readily available. So that means that's fantastic. So I was delighted to when you reached out to get in touch about it. Oh, that's great. I appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Are you itching for a good story? laughter among friends maybe even a mystery or two? Well, you're in luck. Five Raven kings is a standalone Dungeons and Dragons podcast. Each episode is a separate three hour long story like a movie for your ears. So you can listen to these adventures in any order you like. So join us on a real play d&d quest as we solve mysteries attempt, comedic banter and enjoy friendship. Fiber Ethan kittens podcast, fantasy, action, mystery, friendship

Vian Lin Australian pianist and influencer S2 Ep33 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Vian Lin is a pianist, educator, businesswoman and influencer based in Brisbane QLD, and a mum of 4 children. Vian was born in Shanghai China and lived in Paris before arriving in Brisbane in 2002 to pursue her music studies. Vian started her piano journey at Shanghai Conservatory of Music when she was just 3 years old. She went on to win the Australian Yamaha Piano Competition at the age of 17 and performed at the Sydney Opera House. That same year Vian received a scholarship from University of Queensland, and went on to tour more than 10 countries, and performed a piano solo with her own piece – “Two Cities” at the 2014 G20 Summit in Brisbane. In the past decade, Vian has worked with lots of world class artists and musicians, including Dami Im, the Queensland and Sydney Symphony Orchestras, Yo-Yo Ma, and so many more. Vian has performed for Queensland Performing Arts Centre Brisbane Festival and other major festivals in Australia, and around the world. In 2011, Vian created Harmonie Music Centre and Harmonie International and started her new business chapter with a group of young Australian musicians who share the same goals. Vian is now the director and owner of these businesses. Over the past 11 years, Harmonie has brought household names from China, Japan, Korea, Hungary and Croatia, in over 300 performances to over 200,000 patrons in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and Auckland. Her goal is to share Asian culture with every resident in Australia and all over the world. Vian is also an educator who has students over all over the world. Through her social media handle 'Not Just a Pianist' Vian shares her love of music, collaborates with fashions houses such as Burberry and seeks to change long held stereotypes about China and pianists. Vian facebook / Instagram / youtube Podcast - instagram / website Vian’s music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowl antic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for your company. Today my guest is vn Lin. Vn is a pianist, educator, businesswoman and influencer based in Brisbane, Queensland, and a mum of four children, then was born in Shanghai, China, and lived in Paris before arriving in Brisbane in 2002. To pursue her musical studies. Vn started her piano journey at Shanghai Conservatory of Music when she was just three years old. She went on to win the Australian Yamaha piano competition at the age of 17 and performed at the Sydney Opera House. That same year vn received a scholarship from the University of Queensland, and went on to tour more than 10 countries and performed a piano solo with our own piece two cities at the 2014 G 20. Summit held in Brisbane. In the past decade, vn has worked with lots of world class artists and musicians, including Dami in the Queensland and Sydney Symphony orchestras, Yo Yo Ma, and so many more. In 2011 vn created harmony Music Center, and how many international and started her new business chapter with a group of other young Australian musicians who shared the same goals. The end is now the director and owner of both these businesses. Over the past 11 years harmony has bought household names from China, Japan, Korea, Hungary and Croatia to Australia in over 300 performances and to over 200,000 patrons in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and in Auckland, New Zealand. Her goal is to share Asian culture with every resident in Australia and all over the world. Vn is also an educator, and she has students from all across the world. Through her social media handle, not just a pianist vn shares her love of music collaborates with fashion houses such as Burberry and seeks to change long held stereotypes about China and pianists. I hope you enjoy our chat. Welcome, VN, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's my pleasure. I really like your Instagram accounts. Yes, it's quite inspiring. That's great to hear. Thank you. So you're up in Brisbane? Yes, I am. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Must be nice and warm up there this time here. And this is Clay warm today. Yes. So on your social media is your handle is not just a pianist. So can you tell me how you came up with that? And what are the things that you do in addition to play? Obviously, piano is this my career? And but, you know, I was thinking I should actually label myself not just the pianist because I'm also a mom, and also influenced. And also, you know, I'm still studying lots of things. So that's why I came up with some idea that I'm not just the pianist. Yeah. So that's cool. And it sort of makes people intrigued and sort of wonder, what are the things that you do? So that's really cool. Yeah, yeah. So tell me how did you get into playing the piano if you've been playing for a long time? Yeah, I've been playing for already, I think 35 years. I have to say, yes. 35 people are known. I've been playing for years. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you started when you're quite young. I started when I was three. So it was like many many, many years ago and I've been playing and I was studying You know at the Conservatorium University of Queensland and I've been traveling from Australia to Austria and many different countries and you know, sharing music and learning from this person to the other. So music is basically the blood, you know? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did you grew up in a family that that played music as well. Surprisingly, actually, my dad is a businessman, and my mom is an author. So if and I don't have any family influence, but my mom is very, very supportive. When I was young, I remember because, you know, when you were young, you have no idea why you need to learn the music. So I always wanted to quit. And I always wanted to do something silly, but my mom always support me. And you know, call me back to the music and piano lesson and stuff. So yeah. So it's good that she did. Isn't it kept you going? Yeah, yeah. So did you grow up in Australia or we born overseas? I came here in the year of 2000. So that was 22 years ago, I believe. And I think I came here. even earlier than that, maybe 2018 Just for the exchange program as music students, so from China, so I've been in Brisbane. Quite a few years already. Yeah. And whereabouts in China. Are you from? Shanghai? Oh, yeah. That's a name that most people will recognize that. Yeah, that's right yeah. Tell us about your family. You have some children. I have four children. Yeah, I got Doremi. Far. You're not going to complete the scale. Hey, yeah, but that's already a lot. I come anymore. That's it. Yeah. So how What's the age range of view up children? Oh, my youngest just turned one. Oh, wow. And my oldest is 27. In April. So I basically had four children in five years. Well, already. Yeah. Yeah. And guess what? I didn't start my performance as well. So I was basically, you know, giving birth and having babies in a plane and he's fine. Oh, wow. So was obviously like, important to you to keep keep playing your music. You weren't going to stop that for anything. I think it's very difficult to you know, like, not stop. I mean, it's very difficult for women. I think parenting and pregnancy is very, such a big challenge. I have to say, it's a biggest challenge in my life, but I still wanted to do music. So this drives me to see balance. You know, being a mom and being a pianist, I have to say, so did you have, like some support, like family support? Or, you know, someone to help out? You know, with the practicalities of looking after the kids while you're able to perform? Um, yes, I do. I do. I do. But just during the pregnancy, it wasn't that pleasant because, you know, my third and fourth child, they are quite young, and they they around the COVID period. My first child is a call the baby basically. So no one help you. We don't have any any parents. We don't have anybody. You just have to rely on yourself and your family just to get through this. Yeah. Oh, good on you. Yeah, made it. Yeah. Congratulations. So do you do write your own music? As well as playing other people? I do write my own music on the piano. Yes, I do. Yeah. Great. I was gonna ask whether Have you noticed after you've had the children that you might have sort of, are you influenced by the kids like as being becoming a mother changed the way you write? Just in music, particularly before I become a mom, my music is always driven and I always wanted to challenge the speed and to showing off how fast I can play. Giving birth and having your child understand life is not about speed. It's about how relaxed you can be to handle all This scenario, so, email me so you can hear all this settled for flow. So I have changed a lot because of this parenting thing I have to say, Hmm, that's very interesting. Yeah, like that. So it kind of helps you helps you to slow down as well. And keep Yes. If you're sort of in that, that mood. Yeah. So in addition to doing your piano, you you do your influencing you do some modeling as well. Can you tell us about that? I started to do lots of collaborations with it was different brands from 2021. Um, before that, I do perform a lot and you know, friends and different brands, they didn't really, you know, push me to label as an influencer, because I think I was mainly focusing on the performance, then COVID hits. So obviously, your performance, opportunity or time everything else very, very limited, right? So as to think maybe I should do something different. So I start to do YouTube videos kind of became a YouTuber. Also, Instagram and Facebook. Plus, there is some very new Chinese channel called the Red Book. So I am professional Korea, music and also parenting. So I started to have more fans and audiences, then I start to do collaborations with different brands. So that must be fun, like getting to, to wear different clothes. And I've noticed in the campaign you did for Westfield, that you've got your family involved as well. Yes, that's right. We did a campaign was February. And it was kind of fun, because I get to choose the color combinations and my hair and everything. I really liked those kinds of things. Because I think I'm a I'm a canvas, which is very arty, you know, like how I want it to be creative. So I really enjoyed doing what I love. I have to say, this is really a blessing. Yeah. And it's good to be able to step away from the piano too. And show maybe a different side of your creativity because it can be really, yeah, yeah. And that everyone you did like having your hair in that the two little buttons and the bra was written was just very eye catching. Looks awesome. Thank you for your feedback. I love it, too. I recently had a hair cut so I can't go that up anymore. But they will grow to low bars boss who knows? Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I was I had a look at your YouTube, you've got some really fun things on YouTube, like you do the unboxing of your products. That the music side of things, which is really cool. Like, you actually explain the stories behind particular songs sort of educate, as well. Yeah, so you obviously enjoy sharing your knowledge that you have about music as well. Yeah, yeah. And also a fun one was when your husband did you make up that was a good one. Yeah, I have to say that. I think being America. But you know what? I'm so curious. If you look at all those top beauty cosmetic brands, you know, in that in nowadays, you know, all the top makeup artists, they're all male. You're interested. And you know, for this gender thing. Male nowadays they were makeups huh? Yeah, they can kiss and they are so conscious about how they look and how they can improve their appearance and stuff. So yeah, it's interesting so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. has been having good had a good go. I didn't think he did a very bad job actually didn't do that. Very honest, because I like you very much. So it wasn't a good well, yeah, but you got to have fun. Don't Yeah, you've got to you got to have fun in life. Yeah, absolutely. Do your children play music as well? So actually my oldest daughter harmony, she's doing four instruments. Oh, well, he is doing three instruments. So they, they, they are lucky because they born in a musical family, you know, and I guess they're influenced by what we're doing. Because we also have our education institute, which operates and actually have music education, sort of program and stuff. So they basically when they were just six months, they start to grab, you know, triangle, bongo drums and anything you can think about. So they they love music. Yeah, absolutely. And do they enjoy watching you play or hearing you play? Yeah, especially how many because every time I go to a concert, she, she, she did attend. And I think for the reason why she even became my special guests. So she played the cello and we collaborate one song from the north cello exam syllabus, and I really enjoy it, you know, the opportunity to share the stage, not with five musicians, but also with fellow musicians, such as my daughter, this is not only the proud mom moment, it's just the moment that you understand. I am giving my child you know, a musically environment. And she enjoys it, and she's able to stand up and share the stage because I think at such a young age and then standing up on stage to play in front of so many people. It is a very frightening, you know, sort of experience. Absolutely. Yes. Because, you know, even even when I was 17, I came to a piano competition, I can tell that I was so shaky, and I was so nervous, you know, but what I saw my daughter's she's okay, actually, she's only six that time. So I'm so proud. I have to say, oh, yeah, absolutely. I can completely relate to that. Do you think though, because maybe because you've made music, such a normal thing in your life, and she's probably seen you perform. So she thinks it's not scary. It's not not that it's not a big deal. Like she understands that it's important, but it's sort of normalized it a bit for that. And she's sad for me to say. Yeah, because for me on the stage, she knows that our mommy is doing this when I'm going to do something similar to what my mom does. So she, Ellie she has got like, some like security, you know, font there. So she does feel like okay, I can do it. So even if she can't do perfectly it doesn't matter, right? Yeah, absolutely. That's I think that's a wonderful gift to be able to pass on to children that's really lovely. One thing I love to talk to my guests about is the concept of mum guilt. So this idea that mums should just be mums and then if you do anything else apart from being a mum, you should you should feel bad about it or that you know, society makes you feel bad about it. How do you feel about mongoose? I have to say I'm I'm a selfish I'm how to say it. I love my children, right? And I go for it. That's a lot of workload. You can you can't you can't imagine how much you have to do. But for example, now it is the cola period. I don't know about other city but but in particularly in Queensland. It's getting worse. So every bit every day there will be like an increased amount of ls 10,000 cases Imagine that. And if you any group chat, you will notice all the months or so panic, they will be like, I'm not going to send my kids to childcare. I'm not gonna write and this and that. But what I did, but I'm not saying that I'm putting my kids into risk, because they are in a very good school, which I attended when I was young, you know, and all of my four children, two of them are in primary school, one is seeing how to have the IERC, which is the Early Learning Center. So what I did is, every morning, I do send them to there. All right, I trust the teacher, I trust the facility will be able to give my child a healthy and safe environment. All right, because every, every institution, they have a call of a safe plan. So but you know, because some moms are so panicked, they don't believe they don't transmit So, but I'm the one who may be a bit selfish that I trust the institution. And I decided to leave my kids there. Because if they go the whole day, I'll be able to work. Hmm, do my own thing. All right. This is one thing. The other thing is, no matter what every week, I need to do do my yoga. Is this my relaxation moment? So if you want to sacrifice, I'm not going to sacrifice. If my daughter says that, Oh, Mommy, can you do this for me? I will say no, no, I so you can do that with Melody, or you can do that with you know, there are many people in our family. We are big family, you can do that with this or that I gave her options. But the option is not me. Because I told her mommy needs mommy's can. Yeah, yeah, I guess I'm very different. Especially in Asian culture. Because the Asian culture, I think, especially my mom's generation, family, kids, parenting is always the first priority. You never think about yourself. You just have to give everything to your family is a culture you know, huh? Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But it's good that, like, you've recognized that you need particular things in your life, so that you feel good. You know, it's not all about pleasing everyone else all the time. Or maybe you've already passed to that stage because I'm, I'm turning 36 This year, so I don't feel like I wanted to please everybody anymore. Do you get what I'm saying? I do. Yeah. I always wanted to do my best. I want to show maybe my in laws how good I am in i and show my friends or show my kids. Kids. You know, Friends, Mom, you know, like how good I am stuff. I don't want to do that anymore. I just want to be happy. Yeah, that is so. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. The other a few weeks ago, I had a chat with an author. And she said, It's like when you get to 40 You just think I just don't care about any of that other rubbish anymore. Like you just you get over the fact of, you know, comparison and judgment of other people. And like you said, you just want to be happy and yeah, I think that there's something that comes with with age, you sort of get this perspective of what's important in your life maybe. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was when you had two children, how did the identity of yourself change? Did you sort of feel that that was challenged at all becoming a mother did you feel like you were losing part of yourself or if I look back, all of my, you know, for children and they gave birth and everything, I think that pregnancy is the most difficult part for me. I don't know about other women, but it wasn't a pleasant journey for me for each pregnancy. Maybe because of I push myself to be able to handle work and other men, as well as you know, having getting through this pregnancy. But I had lots of issues and lots of you know, problem problems and call the baby as well. No one helped and physically I was facing a lot of difficulties and also mentally when the baby was born, you know, I think it's all good. Like I don't you're tired anyway but I guess because the natural of myself I'm a very energetic person. Always uplifting you know, I'm just some people think that how come via you know, so always like So up in that high, I said, I'm not on drugs, I just I don't know I don't I don't drink. I can't get drunk. Because if you can one, one cup of anything, I just draw. And I don't smoke. So anything, the only cheat I get myself is maybe just Pepsi or some kids. I'm just having some kids. I'm very happy. So I guess my energy level is always very high. That's maybe why I have four children or because sometimes can I my phone company? Oh, I had one already had enough. Yeah. Oh, that's good. I have three more. If you got three more, you will be fine. I just, I think your energy level is very important. So when you asked me that question, when I look back to that question, I have to say pregnancy is really really bad. This is, this is something that I think every woman is really struggling with pregnancy because the baby is not out yet. You have to always check in you're not sure. And you know, the mom, really nice in your process and everything. You just have to wait. I think that's a period of time for a woman to get through. Both mentally and physically. Hmm, yeah, that's a really good point. So then when you actually had the childhood sort of already prepared yourself had gone through those changes. So then when you had your baby, you were sort of already at that point. I was so lucky. I had the best oil be so what happened is, you know, I my delivery was just so smooth, like didn't feel anything you know, at all, like no pain and no anything just like right hand right? Everything. So maybe because of my case, getting busted didn't really cost me any, you know, attention at all. So my attention Oh, jaws to the pregnancy. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I want to say that I really like your channel, because you're trying to do something I think the society really needs. I think there will be no model about a month. Everyone is different, right? And yeah, I don't know how you feel about Australia. But I came here 2000. So it's already 22 years, it's already half passed off my entire life up to now. So I literally I spent more time in Australia than China. I think the Chinese social media recently really raised me up. Recently, there is a very famous Chinese pop sinner called Lee home, a Taiwanese scene, all right, and, and he betrayed his wife. And the wife gave birth three times and gave everything to the family and basically the popstar just betrayed and it became black and white in the society, they start to get to the court, things get very messy and stuff. And you can imagine, you know, the lady would know that the female the mom started to cry and, you know, mentally break down. It's just, I just feel that, when I look back, I have a very different perspective was that I just feel like everybody has a choice. If they don't want to be like that, you know, dependent on your husband, or you don't want to be betrayed by your husband, and think woman, you know, what do you want? Like, you need to really have a strong thing in yourself, then no matter people betray you or not no matter people, you know, do some bad thing or not, he still can move on. So I guess the social media label that women are in a very bad position and men always you know, money and they are they have, you know, strong ego in China. I'm not saying in Australia. You know, women, they need to depend on a man because they are the one who make money. You know that like, yeah, you know what? Yeah, so China In China Social Media, were they trying to say that woman needs to wake up, so I guess it's a bit late, but at least they are starting to have this slogan. Woman You have to wake up. You are not just a mom. You're also so I guess in Australia, this is so natural. Like I saw my friend like yesterday they gave us today they already you know, grabbing the baby just you know, like, at the workplace. Yeah, you cannot do that. You try not people are just like what are you crazy? And that's why I love Australia because I just feel like I can breathe and I can do whatever I want even have to rely on the Chinese social media and society Australia because I am influenced. I know I was born in China, but there are things I don't like. And what I'm doing now is I don't charge about the things I don't like I just support the things I like, and let more people know about it. And I want them to know that people may not know about it, no matter how many children I have. I'm still a woman. So the most important thing is yourself. That's it. Yeah. Children can wait no matter how many children because every time I find a lesson, yeah, you have four children as you saw what Josh's point if you want to have any more Yeah, that's that's really, really I love that no matter how many children I have. I'm still a woman. That's just really powerful. Yeah, yeah. Good for you. Yeah, I really like your channel because I think society needs this kind of thing rather than just label what is good mom. What is bad mom? And yeah, they need something like this. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for being a part of it. It's wonderful to have you on. Have you got anything coming up that you want to let us know? Maybe anyone that you're working with or anything musical that you've got coming? I do have something I got two things to share with everybody. So in Brisbane, from February the first where are we standing a festival called bris Asia festival. And I'm so honored to be able to work with very, very famous producer Anthony and I'm going to do lots of music making with different cultures and sound and, and one of the main theme of it is improvisations. And you can feel the music in the space with different instrumental player and a musician. So it's just going to be so beautiful. I'm so thrilled to share with you about February and one for the festival will go for a month. Yes, sir. Yes. Yes. And my show will be an awful amount. So I will put on my socials. Yeah. And also apart from that I'm working with Japanese jazz scene called Lisa Oh no, she's very famous in the jest field. And I'm going to host her international tour in Taiwan in May. So I'm going to flew sorry I'm going to fly down to Taiwan. Hopefully April and I'm going to do four shows with hiding different cities and this is the part I really looking forward to things called always stop all the international shows. And I can't wait to be physically in that theater the big you know, call with International Jazz Singer Lisa or not. So yes, that sounds fantastic. That is great. Good Anya. So you leave the like the kids will stay in Australia you won't take the kids with you nothing. Because I think they are doing a very good routine. I think consistency is very important for children's development. am I building harmony, my oldest child for her to explore because she's started aware of everything. But obviously though the other three younger ones. They will definitely stick with their daily routine. Yeah. Right. Your parents are still there in China. My dad passed away five years ago in Australia, and my mom is still in China. She's in Shanghai at the moment. We used to live in In Brisbane occasionally because she's that type. She wants her own life. Yeah, she told me. I'm your mom. But I don't have responsibility to take care of your daughter's he's done it hard work. Yes. He told me that she says she needs a life. So I guess that's something that, you know, she passed up to me. So, you know, the beginning, I can't understand that. But now I really enjoyed the distance because she's having her own life and I'm having my life. She's right. I chose to have four children. I have a big family, I've got responsibilities, then I will take care of everything. So you learn from it. Right? No one is perfect. So yeah. Yeah. So my mom is not here. Yep. Yep. So how does you talked before about in the Asian culture that it's sort of like the mums got to do everything and not do anything for herself? How does your mom feel about how you're not in a judgmental way? But just she sort of she recognized because you're in Australia, it's a bit different that you can do yoga and I guess there's reason my mom is not that kind of like sacrificing everything for her child type. Yeah, sure. Example, she decided to send me to Australia when I was very young because she's Spacey. I remember when I was six or seven. Everyone else like dad or mom or grandma, grandpa. They waited at the front of the school in China. They always pick up their kids like in front of it and all line up three o'clock. No one picked me up. My mom pulled a key just Oh, my neck. You go home yourself. I was raised up in that kind of family. You understand what I'm saying? Like? Yeah, yeah. Do you think my mom is even worse? No one can take care of me. I still remember when I was six or seven. I don't remember exactly what she right. There was one time my mom was sick. I was so shocked because my dad was interstate for something business. I don't know. You know what happened to me? I actually we have a lunch break. Every school eat China. You have lunch break. So I remember it's 45 minutes. I ran back home cook instant noodle for my mom. Because I was too young that time. I think if people don't eat, they would die. Oh. This is a no, no. I cooked it and leave it to mom. I said mommy to eat. Okay, then I ran back to school. I was only six or seven. raised up by a family that everybody sacrificed for me. It was well, it was offset, then that's what I'm in Brisbane. You know, in Queensland when I was a teenager. I dive into the culture quite quickly, because I think my family's belief is quite matching was, you know, Western culture a little bit. Not not 100% but majority of Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. Yes. So in a way your mom was kind of not doing the normal trend for an Asian family. Yeah. Yeah. Did so when you when you sort of started to realize that. Did you think that was a really good thing. Like, did you think my mom was really cool? Because she's just doing whatever she wants. So was it the opposite? My mom is really cool. You know? And I tell her tonight, she's really cool. Because I think I still I see, I don't know, I think you have that kind of friends around you. I don't know if you know, that. Every day. If you send your kids to school, right? You bring lunch. And some moms, they are just amazing. Like everything you just opened their lunchbox like they can do the sushi like Panda. And you know, like, yeah, yeah, they can just talk like, oh, like a mastership Yeah, I can't. I can't it's basically that I don't have the time and I'd be honest, I don't have effort to really learn that then there will be people saying the odd vn doesn't love techies. Yeah, there will be like, because I'm an influencer. So people sometimes judge about me. Oh, she never cooks. Oh, she doesn't know how to cook. She doesn't feed her child. But they still eat so mom, you know, raised me and then my mom was just so cool. Do you know why? I'm still working and I'm working like so busy. You know, it's from my social media. So for example, reason why I had a shooting with Ross Ross. You know the conduct recap. Yeah, he's helped me with the scripts, scripts. And it seemed Mandarin English. Obviously. My mom is author. She's so cool. She can help my scripts. Yeah, yeah. Just imagine if my mom choose to be, you know, giving her Everything just raised me pick me up from school, cook about those food for me and give up her career. She won't be so good. I mean, I, I think I think when you just, I mean it's not yes or no right or wrong, but at the end of the day, you just have to ask yourself, what do you really want? Like a mom like, Oh, come on, can you bring me to your family? Can I live with you? I don't want to be like that kind of mom. I want them have their own life. So do I want to have my own life? So I guess maybe the best way is we do have a bit of boundaries. We do have the lines and to let my children know what does not mean. Like what does money don't like and what what moms can do well, mom want to so let's see. I'm not 100% Mom, you know what I mean? Like? Yeah, absolutely. No, that's wonderful. I really love that good on you. Because I think, I think a lot of moms feel like they have to do everything. And if you don't do it, then you're a bad mom, you know, but it's like yeah, no, that's not true. Yeah, absolutely. And this, this makes people sometimes a bit panic as well. I think this is a peer pressures as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The sort of competition of like you said about the lunch boxes, like, you know, and then you see things. And you know, how neat and tidy your uniform is, your hair is all sort of mark your child gets, you know, you know, that kind of things. Yeah. And then And then, with social media, too, there's all this, you know, you see what other mums doing and all the competition there. It's like you forever feel like you've been judged by somebody else. And yeah, gets a bit much. So your your story is very refreshing. I think a lot of people are going to be very inspired to hear to hear that. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So honestly. I really, really love chatting to you. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Edwina Masson Australian vocal loops artist S3 Ep88 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Edwina Masson is my guest this week, a musician and mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. Edwina was born in Brisbane and moved 5 states before she was 10 years old. She didn't have a lot of stability in her home location but her constant was the music that she listened to as a family, Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates towards music to cope with stress and emotions. She started composing music in year 5 on Garage Band, and began to develop a love for harmony. During high school she was music captain and sang, played clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family, and went on to study performing arts at university, and lectured also. Edwina describes her musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, using her voice as the instrument. and creating emotionally dense music which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021 she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and couldn't find it. Edwina began to write music that she need to get though, initially only meant for her, but on realising that others could benefit from it in 2022 Edwina released the album Birth of A Mother. It's the music she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Edwina has recently created the Live Loops Choir in the Noosa Hinterland, a non audition, any ability singing group to be able to create the music she loves in a live setting. If you are in the neighbourhood check it out, link below. This episode contains mentions of hyperemesis gravidarum, birth trauma, post natal depression, miscarriage and traumatic early childhood. Edwina - instagram / live loops choir / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Edwina throughout the episode When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening around the world. My guest this week is Edwina Masson. a tweener is a musician and a mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. That duaner was born in Brisbane, and she moved around five states before she was 10 years old. It was these changes in location and schools that created the instability in her life. But the constant was the music that she listened to with our family. Musicians like Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, the WHO Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates toward music to cope with stress and changes in emotions. She started composing music when she was in year five, using GarageBand and began to develop a love of harmony. During high school she was Music captain, and she sang play clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family. And she went on to study Performing Arts at uni and also became a lecturer at Duany described describes her current musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, sometimes up to 50, using her voice as the instrument and creating emotionally dense music, which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a particularly traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021, she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and she couldn't find it. So Edwina began to write music, the music that she needed to get through, initially only meant for herself, but on realizing that others could benefit from it too. In 2022, Edwina released the album, Birth of a mother, it's the music that she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Dwayne has also recently created the live loops choir in the Noosa hinterland and non audition, any ability singing group to be able to perform the music she loves in a live setting. And if you're in the neighborhood, I encourage you to check it out. I've put the link in the show notes. Today's episode does get quite full on at times, just letting you know that it contains mentions of a traumatic pregnancy and birth and postnatal depression and also mentions of miscarriage. Throughout this episode, you'll hear snippets of a Dwayne his music, particularly from the album birth of a mother and I encourage you to check it out to again, the links in the show notes. It's just beautiful music and it just soothes your soul. No matter what stage you're in. Whether you are a new mother pregnant, or you've got kids that are 15 years old, it really speaks to all of us. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're gonna love this episode, and take care do doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, it's absolutely my pleasure. It's lovely to put a face to the sounds like I mean, I've seen you on Instagram, obviously, but to speak to you, after listening to, to your incredible music. It's really, really lovely to meet you. Oh, that's so that's so sweet. I get that. You know what, I actually get that more often than you think. Because other people listen to my music. And I don't actually, it's really interesting as a musician, like you put music out and you kind of think that, like, no one's listening to it. And then you just like, it's just for me. And then somebody's like, you're the person and I'm like, Yeah, my music sounds so deep. And then you meet me and you're like, you're a dork. Edwina. Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. Yes. So we're about to you at the moment. Where are you? What in the world are we has a really good question. We are currently on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland in Australia. And we've been here I think for about seven months now. Seven months we've been living here and it's just so beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. I am, we used to come up for a couple of years in a row, we came up to Caloundra for a family holidays. And I just loved it up there. I just loved it. We loved it so much. You went to exactly the same place two years in a row. We just loved it so much. It's like why do we need to go anywhere else? If it ain't broke? Don't fix it. We're in like the kind of like the Noosa hinterland. Oh, yeah. And it's just where it's so beautiful. It's like I spent years just like dreaming about living in like a rainforest. And we do now and it's just, oh, I look out my window every day. And I feel so lucky. So happy to be here yet. Do you have all those? I don't know what sort of birds they are. But I've never heard them because I'm from that Gambia right down south. And there's these birds like they made like a whipping with Yes. Yeah. Like the Lyrebirds. Like the Yeah. And they had like the rainforest bird. Yeah, yeah, that we do have them and you can go out on the balcony first thing in the morning, and you can hear them and it is just like, you are transported to deep rainforest when you hear those birds there. Yeah, we do have them and they are spectacular. Yeah. No, I love that I love. Yeah. And the other thing I remember there being up there was that it got it got light a lot earlier than what it does at home. And so like you'd be woken up with this beautiful bird song. And it was just like, oh my gosh, and then you'd see like, we're staying at the beach at the ocean. It was just like, why did we live where we live? What we need to do here? Yeah, it does. It's like both a blessing and a curse that the sunrise is so early, like the sunrises before five. At the moment, the sun is I can see the sun restarting, like it gets light at like 450. And like, I know that because my child wakes up at that time. So this is before the sun is even, like awakened. My child's like it's going to rise in the next 10 minutes, Mom, I'm ready for it. Like I'm just beating it up, they're ready to give it away when it comes. That's gorgeous. God, it's up to us to keep them I can see how close you are. So you're a singer, songwriter, performer? How did you first get into music? Wow, it's a great question. I grew up moving a lot. So I was born in Brisbane. And then we moved to states five times before I was 10. And yeah, and I didn't have a lot of stability and like the home that we were living in or the friends that I had. And so something that was always really constant in my life was the music that we listened to as a family. It was always like Paul Kelly and Led Zeppelin and the who and Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. And that was like such a core memory of stability and safety for me that I think that really had an impact on when I was getting older what I gravitated towards to cope with stress and to cope with emotion. And I think I was about I was about 10 And we had we just moved to Western Australia. And I remember going into year five and singing just like singing in class. And it was the first time that like a kid had told me that I had a good voice and I was like What do you mean, my family told me that I sound like a dying cat. Literally, they would say that and then I had all these kids being like, Oh, you can really sing. And then suddenly I was like oh that's the thing. Like in my mind. It was the thing that set me apart. So my Had I kind of developed a slightly unhealthy attachment to singing for a long time of like it was my entire self worth. Yeah. And I just kept singing. And then when I graduated high school, I was like to my parents, I'm going to be a singer. And like the shock and horror on their faces of oh, dear Lord, how is she gonna make this work? Because they barely knew that I was like a singer. I was always playing clarinet and double bass, but I never told them that I was a singer until the end of year 12, even though I was like Music captain sung in choirs as sung solo at school all the time. Like I just never told them. Oh, by the way, actually sing all the time. Yeah. So image in your head of this dying cat singer. They really had very little clue that I was as good as I was. Yeah. And I remember them. I remember singing at like the highest high school, entire school presentation that at the end of the year at this big old, like theater, and then hearing me really, for the first time seeing was like a 70 person choir behind me. And I remember afterwards and being like, Are you kidding? Like, what do you mean that you have been singing and being taught for like, what? Why didn't you want to tell us and it was like a whole thing of like me just not telling them that I was a singer, because I didn't want them to tell me that I sounded bad. Oh, yeah. So then I Yeah. And so then I went into performing arts university. And that was an experience and then I lectured and yeah, that was kind of how it all started for me. Yeah, right. Something that's really big for you is harmony, which is I love is I've spent so many years of my life two part singing, and I just adore it. When did you first sort of start to recognize harmony as an actual thing, and start to fall in love with it? Well, I started writing instrumental music before I ever started singing. So I was, I was in year five. And my family had just gotten like the first Apple Computer. And I remember GarageBand being on there, and it was free. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you mean I can put like, I can just make music. And I would spend hours on there just like bashing the typing keyboard as like a piano keyboard, just writing different parts and different. And that's when I started really, I had no idea what harmony was, I didn't know what intervals or anything like that was. But I remember, I listened to classical music growing up. And I had listened to such amazing artists that it was already like, clicking inside of my system, or this, this sounds good. And like this does not sound good. And so it was really very young that I started realizing that I loved harmonies, and then I sang in choir in school. And I always just had this obsession with like harmony was the tool that you could use to express emotion and not need words. And that to me when I was growing up was very important because I didn't necessarily want to talk about what I was feeling. Or there wasn't this wasn't necessarily a space for me to be able to talk about how I was feeling. And harmony was this tool that I was able to use to be like, I am feeling angry, or I'm feeling such pain or such joy and not have to actually with words, say those things. So it definitely was like my own form of therapy for many years. Yeah, that's it. I've never actually thought of it that way. But that is so true. It's like it evokes so much in you when you hear these particular, you know, chords and constructs of notes. That's really incredible. Thanks for Thanks for sharing that. So welcome. It was, honestly I remember being like, the melody, like in contemporary singers today. The thing I always talk to my students about is like, your Lyric should only be doing 50% of the work. Your melodies and harmonies that support the lyrics that you're using. should be doing. Like if you took away the lyrics does your melodies actually say anything? And that was the massive thing for me is like I spent so much time being like, How can I communicate how I feel, without ever having to say one word and harmony was such an amazing tool to use. So it was like a low key obsession of mine. Yeah, I'm pleased because you're very, you've got a very it's like an innate natural ability, which I love. I think that's awesome. Because I think sometimes you can't teach that stuff. I know you can. You can actually teach it but just to get it like I had no formal train Writing in harmony. My dad used to listen to a lot of country music. So Johnny Cash, John Java course all male, like male voices, and I have an alto voice, but that's not that low, you know? It's not John. Hello, thankfully. So yeah, I, I developed a way to sing along to the songs in the car, because I couldn't sing the tune in their, in their, in their what is their their vocal range, there's their register in that register, that's what I'm after. And I couldn't sing it up the octave because my voice was too low. So I started to sing harmony, harmony without knowing what it was just to be able to join in and sing the songs because I love the song so much. And that's just did that too. Oh, and it's like, I'd never been taught and I never knew the words for until years later when people started explaining to me or you're singing in thirds, or you're seeing in whatever is and I was like, Well, that's nice. Glad I know what that means. But I had that's cool. What I do, you know, yeah, and it's just it's worked really great because my sister and I have been together for years as a duo. And I just naturally take the harmonies because it's like, you know, it's just there in your body sort of thing and hear some people are much some people's ears are definitely more receptive and perceptive of harmony. And they find it a lot easier to hear for sure in like when I was lecturing, you could really tell the musicians whose ear was more sensitive to harmony. Yeah, it was yeah, it was something that it usually came down to the type of music that they'd listened to growing up. They were listening to music like country music, a lot of country music has a lot of harmony in it. Like particularly a lot of like, country groups. There's a whole bunch of there. It's so harmony dense in regards to like, there'll be three parts singing the melody like Yes, yep. So it is really interesting seeing how the music you grow up with hugely influences where your strength will lie if you are interested in being a musician. Yeah, that's really cool. That's really cool. The other thing I find I do find it frustrating though, because when you've got that ear and you're used to picking nights and hearing things, when you hear something that's not quite right, it really frustrates you are don't even honest to God. It's like it's a blessing and a curse being so trained in music. I honestly, I remember I went through a phase probably when I was at university, and I was studying it for literally like eight, nine hours a day, I was studying music. And it got to a point where I went definitely went through like a snobby snobby vase being like, What do you mean, you're singing flat? And it feels like, it's like, you know, the pee in the mattress? Yeah, like the old storytel. Yeah, yeah, it felt like that I would hear everything and hear something was flat, I would hear if it didn't match up, I would hear if the harmonies weren't falling. Like the same vibrato, like my ear was so trained that I for a while I actually couldn't enjoy a lot of music. Yeah, yeah. And I actually when I remember when I graduated, I actually had to take a step back and be like Edwina, why did you start singing in the first place? Because it wasn't about the academics. Yeah, it was, it was truly about how it made you feel. You just have the tools to express how you feel better now, but like, yeah, I definitely resonate with what you're saying. So I remember listening to other musicians and being like, they caught even saying, like no, I'm not. I don't think that at all now, but I definitely went through that phase. Oh, yeah. Because, like, I often think about the fact that like, if I wasn't as good as I was, I wouldn't be up there. Because I'm so judgmental on myself that, like, I used to have a habit of judging others with the same lens that I judged myself and because they would never level up to what the capabilities of myself I was like, Why do you think you should be up there? So definitely like to that. Yeah, it's it takes a takes a while to unpack it, for sure. So I understand that. Yes. And I personally had to let go of a lot of like jealousy, like, oh, how come they get to do it? I can do this. Why can I do it? And over the years, I've gotten very good at just going you know what, it's not nothing to do with you, Allison, this is this person. This is where they are in their life and their journey and you have no idea where they come from or what they're doing. And I've just gotten really good at like going that's good on them. I'm really pleased for them. That took a little bit. It's really hard as like a musician when for my personal experience when I was studying it was such a competitive environment that you couldn't help like that you weren't told that there was room enough for everybody. Yeah, space existed for everyone. So you would it was like inbuilt in you to become judgmental and to become competitive and to become this. This thing where you believe that you know if you didn't get that opportunity And then you like you were missing out on the break on the on the next opportunity. And I definitely went through that we will literally got ranked when I was at university. Yeah, we would end the top four singers would get all the opportunities. And I was lucky to always be in that top four. But I remember the, like, I remember the levels that I like, how much I work to be in that top four and how I had massive burnout at the end of studying because of it. Yeah. So it definitely like the music industry breeze you for competitiveness, and it actually takes active, unlike undoing to just allow someone to sing and not charge them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up doing a Stanford's. They used to put me in a sentence from a very young age. And I think it's the worst thing that ever happened to me, because I just think continued to go through life thinking I was being judged all the time all the time. Yep. Yep. Yep, I still work through that stuff. Yeah. And you have an expectation that whatever, whatever this person tells you must be right. Because they're the adjudicator, you know? And it took me took me years until someone said to me, Allison, are you going to let one person's opinion might like, change your opinion of yourself? You're gonna let that one person have that much control over you. And I just went? Yeah, no, that's what I've been doing since I was like, I don't know. Young Child. Yep. Like, and yeah, music is. So beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Every person will like a particular type of music and like a particular type of voice better. So it's really hard. I remember when I was lecturing, how hard it was to mark someone on the skill. Because it's like, I always knew that I had biases to the types of voices that I liked. So I had to really actively be like, Okay, if I take away my own bias, how do they technically like when we're looking at technique? How the technique because there are some vocal tones that I just love, and there are others that I am interested in. So it is a really, that's why studying music and it's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah, yeah, I have memories of like, but just before I set for the started, like the room is room, excuse me, the rumor mill would start up about who's the adjudicator? And what sort of voice Do they like? And then when we knew that they liked surprise all those hours ago, stuff, nice, you know, what we bother, you know, if you could get you down right from the start, you know, you'd go out there just thinking that they're not gonna like me, because they like sopranos, you know? Yeah. So that, that kills a little person's head. And, you know, it took me took me to I was certainly my young adulthood to actually say to myself, You know what, I don't need to do this anymore. Like, yeah, no one's making me do this anymore. Why am I doing this? I'm actually so thankful that I didn't do a lot of those things when I was that young singing was something that was so incredibly like, personal and like, sacred to me from a very young age. And I didn't have singing lessons until I got into performing arts university because of the fact that I was always like, I don't want someone else to take this, this thing that I have, but I was so young, and I recognize that I recognize. Yeah, and then when I started university, I was like, my song, my voice is the audible version of my soul, I will protect it with my life, because it meant so much to me. And I think that's the reason why I didn't want to have singing lessons in high school because I knew someone was going to come in. And like, I was just learning my voice. I was just like, in this point in time where I didn't want to compete for it. I didn't, I just knew, but then I went to university and it was like, wow, like whiplash? Oh, yeah. Suddenly coming into a highly competitive environment. Being so unlike I was on trained, but I was really passionate about it. So I was able to pick things up very quickly. And it went from being a therapy to being a sport. It was it was a real, a real change for me. And it took I wanted to quit so many times because I was like, I don't love this anymore. This isn't why I started singing. Yeah, and I remember just my lecturer who was spectacular, telling me you know, you have to think of these simply as tools that we're trying to teach you so that you can access your therapy even more specific specifically so I can sing with more nuance and I can have more vocal range to communicate how I'm feeling and I had to come back to that so many times because otherwise it just wasn't worth it. It just wasn't worth it. It was like could you you were you really protective of that because you thought people were going to try and change what you had. Well I would listen to people voices change like really change I was like, This is not you have any more or and I came later came to learn a lot about placement and how placement affects tone and, and I would hear singers mimic other singers. And I was like, well, that's no longer you. You're manipulating your placement to sound like someone else. And therefore it means that you're not actually authentically singing your voice and you're like your story. And that was something for really young age that I was like that's, that's I'm not I'm not willing to do that. Yeah, that's actually one of my pet peeves in in singers is people who manipulate their voice to sound a particular way. It just really makes me just, I just think, and then when they successful at that, and then I've got to finish back, you know, I think that's not even you. Yeah. Because, like we go through stages as a society as being told this is the voice like Christina Aguilera. Oh, my gosh, you had millions of young white children, young white females trying to sound black. Yeah, because of Christina Aguilera, Christina Aguilera had multiple vocal health issues because of her terrible technique in her lower part of her range. She can no longer belt as high as she could, because of how she treated her voice. Yeah. So it was definitely I remember being like, I want to be Christina Aguilera. Like when I was when I was really young. And then I was like, well, this hurts. Yes. Yes. Do this. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely. I think about that often. And I just am thankful to the younger version of myself who was really protective of it. Because I probably wouldn't still be singing if I had been in a Stanford because I cannot compete when it comes to voice like I just I can't do it. I can't do it. I used to do piano. And I did one concert and I would never do it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just, it just takes out like you said this. The soul things like it's just, I don't know. It's odd. I hate them. And I, I paint them with a passion. And I wish I mean, I guess it's taught me something. You get something out of it. But yeah, it wasn't that great. But anyway, enough of that. I know there are times when you feel like you can't do it on your own. I promise you, you're God. So tell me about your album that you released last year, which is amazing. Thank you. That was a birth of a mother. Yes. Yes. So I wrote those songs. When I was pregnant with my son in 2020s. Yeah, 2020 I, like started writing songs and 2021. And for me, they literally those songs were only ever meant for me. It was I had a really tough pregnancy. I had hyperemesis gravidarum I had every everything under the sun. When it comes to like side effects. I used to get pregnancy hives, my vocal cords was so swollen because of how much I was throwing up. Yeah, it was the like, it was so dark that period of time. And I remember being like, where is the music that is specifically for someone like myself, like, where's the music that is for someone who is terrified of becoming a mother, even though they want it so much or terrified of birth. I just needed like a, an audible birthing step. Like that's what it felt like to me, I just needed to write these songs to help me feel supported. And so that's what I did. And because I couldn't work because I couldn't. My vocal stamina was so affected by the sickness, I had a lot of time. To slowly record these songs, I listened back to the vocals, like the lead vocals on some of those songs. And I'm like, oh, man, you can hear the fatigue. Like I know my worth well enough, and I can hear the fatigue, I can hear just how hard I found that period of time in my life. And so they were just the biggest support for me. And that's why I decided after like after, I think I was pretty pregnant when I started releasing the songs, not on Spotify. And I remember other women being like, oh my gosh, thank you. Because like, I was never really into mantra music or like the, those types of things. I was like, I want it to feel contemporary enough that someone who is not spiritual at all, can listen to it and not be like what is this? Yeah. And so it was like bringing my very like specific type of writing into a space where I was like 50% of the population have mothers or mothering or parenting or birthing babies, and there was like, no music just for them. Oh my gosh, yeah. How, how? Oh, how and so I just, I just couldn't get over that. I was like, once again, there's so underrepresented as mothers in, like, I know, there were so many female mother artists, but where is the music that is actually for them. So that's why I created the music. And then last year, I was finally like, I just need these to exist in the world. I just need them to be somewhere easy, even though it doesn't make me money. Because Spotify or Spotify, but I was just like, it just has to exist somewhere. Because, like, I just got to a point where I was like, it's not just for me, it's bigger than me. It's just bigger than me. And so that's why they're on Spotify now. And I just love the album. I still go back and listen to it. I still go backwards to it. Yeah, yeah. So for for those who haven't heard it, how do you how can you describe? Because it is very unique. Yeah, the way that you put things together and you add delays? Can you just describe how you do it? Maybe a process of how you put it together? Yeah, so essentially, I'm a vocal looping artist. So I create songs 95%, just with my voice. So essentially, it is a song where every instrument that you might hear in a normal track is my voice in my music. Yeah, it's I don't know, I don't know, genre, in regards to my music, like it really is really hard to, but it definitely has influences of many different styles. And yeah, it was one of my all time favorite time to this day favorite artists and has been probably one of the biggest influences in the way that I write. But yeah, that's how I would kind of, I would say it's like a mix of ner with Gosh, I don't even know that's a really hard thing. I used to be really good at describing what I did when I wrote like, pop music. And how I'm just like, you have to hear it. Yeah, no, literally. But it is it's very vocally dense, harmonically dense music that takes you on quite the emotional journey. Hmm, absolutely. Now that's a great way of describing it. Did you make a sort of a considered decision to not include instruments in your work? Was it like, this is you're taking ownership of this yourself? Yeah, it was I, I, when I first started, like performing I had an 11 piece band, I had a big band, I had three horns, three backing vocalists, it was like the full shebang. And the first EP I ever released was, was that it was massive. And then I remember finding it so hard to ever do gigs or to ever, like it was just a really difficult thing. And I remember being like, these instruments aren't even accurately doing or playing what I exactly want in my head, because they're all bringing their own personality and their own filter to the souls. And I remember just starting to do vocal, I started vocal looping when I was 17. And I'm 29 now. So I started vocally exploring harmony and rhythm with my voice a long time ago. And I think I was 21 or 22 When I started writing, just vocal music. And it took me a really long time to accept that that's what felt most authentic for me as a musical expression. Because I was always like, this doesn't fit anywhere in music like this doesn't, it didn't fit anywhere. It was never going to end up on radio, in the radio stations that I dreamed of like I really grappled with that for a long time. Because I was like, this just isn't like anything else I've heard. And I didn't know where it would fit. So it took me a really long time to just be like, well, this is this is me like this is this is what goes on in my brain. And I just remember getting to a point where I was like this, I have to honor the fact that if I'm going to be a musician, I am going to be an authentic musician. And this is what is going to have to sound like and it might not be for everybody. But I can go back and listen to this music and know exactly how I was feeling and hear every single vocal harmony and know that It was placed there, because my brain was like it needs to be placed there. So intentional. Yeah, it is, it was really intentional. And it's like I love collaborating with others. However, I always loved being able to have a bit of a control freak, probably. I liked being able to control where everything sat and the I knew that I could sing certain things better than other singers. And when I was my song, I wanted to be able to exactly replicate my harmony, exactly replicate, like, my vibrato on certain things. So that it would wouldn't each pot Ness doesn't necessarily stand out. By itself. It kind of feels like a wall of sound. Yeah. And so I just practiced and did that and just wrote, and I look back at the first vocal looping songs that I ever recorded in my bedroom. And it's like three layers. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And now you now you look at my recorded files of my songs, and it's like, minimum 40 to 50 layers of stuff. Oh, wow. Because everything gets doubled, and we pull things to the left and pull things to the right. And there's parts that exact like work exactly, just as rhythmic stuff. And, and to me, I was just like, oh, this just feels so cool. To like, Okay, so my two biggest influences are Enya. And Bobby McFerrin. Yeah, right? Yep. I studied him when I was studying at university, and he had such a huge impact on me, because he's ranged was phenomenal. And his ability to move, I just had never heard anyone like that. And I went, so I dove so deep into his vocal past. And that's why I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to try and replicate that on a looper because I couldn't sing as low as him. And that's kind of how it really like that love affair of like being able to just be voice because his was just voice you would hear him collaborate with other musicians. And he would be singing the baseline, while the double bass player was playing, like some type of melody. It was just like, holy moly, that just blew my mind. Like it was just had such a profound impact on me. So those two together is kind of how I ended up with what I do now. Bodies Yeah, a couple of things from that. I want to mention that when you talked about having to sort of have this, I'm gonna call it an existential crisis, but literally deciding between what was genuine and authentic for you to present as your music and what I think what music industry or being in the music environment tells us, our end goal is we have to be heard we have to be on radio, we have to get our break, we have to do this, you know, it's fighting against all that. Yeah, it's, it's pretty hardcore, I really had a hard time with it. I, when I go back on my own catalogue of music, you literally see the evolution of that crisis of me starting to write with that 11 piece band and then moving into one like almost electronic music. And that was the moment where I was like, you've gotten too far off, like you've gone too far away from I was singing lead vocals on like, EDM tracks, like, like club bangers. Yeah. And I was like, you have gone so far away from where you're meant to be. And because I had health issues, I remember thinking to myself, you only can sing a certain amount of hours a day, you only have the energy to do so much creation, if you're going to do it. It needs to be something that you will love. And it needs to be something that makes you feel like truly seen and truly heard. And that was something I was so passionate about is is what I'm putting out into the world. Is that Is that me? Is that me? And the more that I practice, and that's why I always say to people, you know, your first thing doesn't have to be this thing that gets you your followers that gets your big break, whatever that means to you. Like just start because I look back and I'm like, I'm so happy I recorded that music and released it because that you can literally see the evolution of myself as an artist and trying to work hard to get to a place where the music I'm releasing most accurately reflects my internal state. And I remember when I finally got there it just like that was the vocal loop. It was just like a clip. Yeah, and it was just like, Ah, this is it. Like this is me. This is all the everything I hear in my head. I can finally create something that like that everyone else can listen to. Because even when I was with the 11 piece band, I'd be hearing so much more in my mind that was never going to be able to be played by another instrument. And other singers would were having a trouble hearing the harmonies or I couldn't have 17 singers on stage with me. So I just couldn't do that it was just, I couldn't get paid any money doing that, like I just there was no, there was no money. So if it was just me on stage with my Looper one, I would actually make money. And two, I was able to have ultimate freedom and ultimate control. Yeah, and not have to worry about someone else keeping up with me. And it was just as like, oh, that's what it felt like, it felt like such a big sigh of relief. That's what it definitely felt like, yeah, I can relate to that on a slightly different level. But same sort of thing. I do have control issues. And my sisters listening should be nodding your head right now. Because I, as I'm gonna say, I hear things, and I know how I want it to sound. And I'm getting better. I mean, I think I've, since I've totally got over it, but I don't have to do at all. Like, it doesn't have to be me. But when I spent 20 years singing in a vocal group, and towards the end, it was just, it had gone from this massive choir to like we would I was involved in like the Committee stage of things. And we, we turned it into four or five, sort of niche groups. So I was in this, this group of there were six of us. And we're, we're doing part singing. And I guess every group is going to have a leader. And it wasn't me, which was fine, because I didn't want to lead but I wanted to have my ideas heard. And I wanted to be able to say, actually, can we do it like this? Or can we try it at this tempo or whatever. But the personality clashes made it really hard to do that. So I just went, I'm not doing this anymore. And I didn't do any anything except for I turned myself into a soloist and just got mine backings got all my own gear just made it possible that I didn't have to organize rehearsals with people, I could do everything I wanted. So I basically just went, nah, this this is too much for my head anymore. And around that time. You know, my, my first son was gonna say he was about seven. Were thinking about having another one. And I was like, No, this is just too much. And so I just brought it all the way back to me and then gradually added my sister back in, because we could communicate and and do things together. But it's I don't know, you just get to that moment where you just go, This isn't me anymore. Yeah. And I think it's like, you have to give yourself permission to be okay with that. Like, I remember accepting that my music will may not live in the spaces that we are told music should live in. I remember being like, you know what, it's okay, if it doesn't end up on this radio, because I'm not the type of person that listens to the radio like that. Anyway, like, I had to really get so clear on what if I was to be a musician my whole life? If I came at the end of it, what do I want to feel like I have done for myself? And am I proud of where my music has existed? And when am I creating music that actually helps people and makes people feel things? Or am I writing music for a record label? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really came back to like, oh, I need this is I came back to that little like 10 year old girl who wrote music because it was therapy was is what I always came back to. I was like, I want to be able to look back on to her. And be like, I I kept, I kept going with that I using was first and foremost an emotional expression for me. And anyone who gets to enjoy it. It's like, you're welcome. Like, I write, I write for me, I sing for me, I perform for me. And it just happened to be the the moment I found the most authentic expression of myself at the moment where people were like that was that was a really interesting moments like when I I don't know it doesn't happen for everybody. But for me personally, it was like I just had this perfect combination of like, sound like the sound that I was producing people were looking for. Yeah, and I'm so thankful for that. But in the end, even if I didn't have that I can listen to my music and be proud that I did it for myself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The way you're listening to the odd thing. You talked about being pregnant. How wild is your little boy here? He is to in May. So yeah, he's a wild. I was gonna say fun times. My gosh, my child has been In a wild since the moment he was conceived, like home I gosh, I could not prepare myself at all for that journey like it was. It has been the baptism of fire over and over again with my beautiful beautiful son. He's just so wild. Oh man. Yeah, he's Yeah, it's been big. It's been a big, big journey from being sick. My whole pregnancy. He went to 42 weeks. Yeah. Oh, yeah, he was coming out. No, he was very happy. And I was in severe pain, like a my body it was just like, well, we're gonna, we're gonna break now. We're done. And then birth going sideways. In regards to Yeah, it didn't go to plan. And then our postpartum with Fergus was honestly I didn't think between pote like pregnancy and birth, I thought they were going to be the two hardest experience, but it was our postpartum. It was like a first eight months with Fergus was the just the worst time in our lives easily. So definitely, I felt like I had what I suppose people call like ego deaths. I just felt like I died over and over and over becoming a mother. It was just so your identity was changing so much. And yeah, because I barely could sing when I was pregnant. And then after I gave birth, my plan was to go back to work back to being an artist at like three months postpartum. And then I had to have an emergency cesarean for our for birth, after a home tried home birth for 24 hours. And then we gave birth to Fergus and Fergus was a incredibly distressed child, he had so much stress in his body. So we spent the first almost year of his life just supporting him like he would scream and cry for about nine hours a day. It was we couldn't leave the house. He never was able to go into a carrier because he hated any type of pressure on his restriction on his body. We couldn't put him in a pram until he was six months old, seven months old. And still to this day, he doesn't doesn't like being a pram and then he started walking at eight months started crawling at four months. Yeah, he was we we had the hardest time no one could like look after him for the first nine months of his life because he would he just had he had a lot of trauma in his body. He came out holding his neck up screaming bloody murder. Well, he could take a turn his head from birth like he was never a floppy head, baby Cheevers Yeah, he used to he never he hated sit like I have forgotten so much. We've definitely blacked out a lot. But he hated sitting from the moment he was born. He was like 10 days old and he was his legs were straight and they wouldn't he just wouldn't sit. Yeah. He had just so much tension in his body. So we had to do a lot of work with him to help him basically unwind his nervous system and that involved a lot of like, trauma for us parents of listening, being with him as he expressed his emotions and we would sit with him. And he was like we knew he was fed in we we'd gone every Western medicine route to see if there was anything wrong. I say that in inverted commas wrong with him. Yeah. And then we found a way of parenting. Yeah, that was the game changer. We worked with like a birth trauma aware parenting specialist, and she changed our life. It was yeah, it was fantastic. But Ferg was a really, really intense child. And for the first year and he still to this day is massive feelings. So I didn't sing for a year for the first year of Fergus his life I didn't didn't touch my Looper at all. And it was the worst time of my life. Yeah, yeah. Is it's literally your that identity that part of you is just disappeared. Yeah, and I genuinely thought I was never going to sing again. Like I really thought that this was over because, like fit I couldn't sing with Fergus because Fergus just hate like he just couldn't. He wouldn't sit like he couldn't be still. He wasn't just the baby you can put in a bouncer like ever. I couldn't just put him in a carrier when he wouldn't sleep. He was such a light sleeper for the first year and a half of his life. So I couldn't sing like I could never leave the bedroom and sing. So he was honestly he was like 16 months the first time I pulled out my looper. Yeah, right, since before giving birth. But I had honestly thought, hey, and my voice was so wrecked because my body was so exhausted. That I had such limited vocal range, my muscles were just shot to pieces. And I just have such deep set I have so sad. Like, I remember being so sad about it. Like I was just like this has been my life for a decade. And then some I would I had so much anger because I would watch other musicians who were mothers be able to balance both. Like they were able to take their children to their shows their child was able to fall asleep on their body as they practiced, I would watch them record music with their kids in the room. And I had a baby that was so angry. Just such an angry and struggling child that I couldn't we couldn't do anything like our life didn't even look remotely like it had before giving birth and so we really, we really struggled and we were in lockdown. And we had no family man. And that's the thing the thing that you had always gone to to work through stuff with your music that wasn't accessible tea. Nope. So I pretty iced I had, I did suffer from like, postnatal depression. Because I had no I had nothing no, not only because the pregnancy was traumatic, the birth was traumatic and our postpartum was just the worst thing in the world. But also because I just had no outlet like I just had the tools that I would always use to express how I was feeling I didn't have that anymore. And it was just it was such a dark time. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. Which is the it was I would wear out over here being like we're one and done because the idea of going through that again is just yeah, we couldn't we couldn't even fathom it. It's just now that focus is almost two is the first time in years that we've been like oh, hello like to my husband. Hi. I haven't. I haven't seen you for a while. I haven't seen you for a while like he slept on the couch for a whole year. It was just Yeah, it was very hard. So I remember being him being focus being 16 months old and finally dusting like dusting off my looper and being like Oh, hello old friend. Yeah, Joy Joy choice to see these moments to catch up above God it's up to us to give them that's got me I nearly started bawling then. Oh, man. That's tough that hell yeah. How did you get through it? Literally. How did you get through it? It was it was the it was the toughest thing I have honestly ever been through. I don't even know cam has my husband has pretty well blacked out the first four or five months of focus his life. Yeah, really can't remember it. Because we were in straight survival mode. Like we couldn't leave the house like I we couldn't even walk up the street without various catatonic Lee screaming. And we used to sit on a bouncing ball for hours just to her to try and keep him like, that's when we were we didn't understand birth trauma or nervous system issues. And we just It was exhausting. And I, I don't even know how we made it through. We just were like, we just have to. It was like the mantra of survive the day, survive the day survive the day. And it felt like we and it's still to this day. It's a lot easier now. But it honestly felt like we never got a break of like Fergus was then he went from being a really distressed, massive feelings child to suddenly like, crawling so early, and then walking so early. Yeah. And so it was just like, we went from one thing to the next thing. And he was such an angry, frustrated kid because he wanted to do everything on top of like, Oh, I've got so much anger and like so much feelings and you need to and we could never pacify him. Like if we even if we tried. Even if we tried. He was like, No, you will hear me. Yeah, we used to just sit there with him. And we listened. And we listened to him. And it was like, I'm glad I took videos of it because I remember like, it was so intense. And you'd watch his little nervous system unwind. And I remember thinking to myself, I was like, Okay, we're probably only going to do this once because of this, like it's going to get better. And I and that's when I started reaching out on Instagram and I found other mothers who had gone through a very had very similar babies to Fergus Yeah. And because everybody around me all of the friends that I had that had been having babies had were experiencing nothing like we were like it was just and that was made it so hard. Because the we didn't even know a baby like Fergus was possible. Because we never seen anything like him in regards to his intensity and he his stress and his body and he never sat. He was always twitching. And oh my gosh. And so we really it was just, it was survived the day like I cried a lot at nighttime. Like I cried, I cried the first year of his life. That was the only way and we went into therapy. I started going and seeing a therapist because we were doing so much listening to Fergus his feelings that we just had to get that extra support. And we didn't have family support at all. So it was just kind of like we Yeah, it was dark. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. It's just started even though Oh, man. Yeah, it was it was definitely hard. And I remember the first time I met in person, another mother who had a baby like Fergus, and I just cried to just almost a relief like it was just me it was because I only met her in the last like two months because she lives over here. And she her experience, she gave birth to her child three days after Fergus and her child, her birth mirrored our birth and their her baby mirrored Fergus, and they might turned out that Kim and her husband had actually met each other through and aware parenting men's group online. And they so it was like, just meeting someone else who could relate to so many aspects of our parenting experience was just like, incredibly healing. And I didn't know that I needed that healing before until I met her in the flesh. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, there's someone who truly understands. Yeah, yeah. And that's thing like when you said before about, sorry, I've just realized that my camera's frozen up, but I am still here. In that position, look like or it's fun. Yeah, like the people around you that have having babies that are not experiencing what Vegas is experiencing. It'd be so easy for them to place judgment on your parenting as a reason why your baby's struggling and that it would that would be tremendously unhelpful and unkind. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I was pretty I was very lucky that the everyone around me knew that what we were going through was really different to theirs and that we were doing everything I like the everything we did to support Fergus, and then I came off with first we were like, it might it was a tongue tie. So we had his tongue tie snipped, and then we took him to osteo, cranial sacral therapy, physio, Cairo, naturopath, I came off basically all foods other than roast vegetables and chicken for four or five months, I have lunch and dinner. I used to give him a naturopathic tonic to try and help we thought it was might be a stomach. Everything, I changed the way that I was breastfeeding to try and help Oh my gosh, we went we did. We knew we knew that we were doing everything possible, like within, like, anything possible to try to help him. Yeah. Until we got to a point where we were like it, none of that it's his stress, like is so much you would look at his body. And you could tell that his nervous system was so wired. And I felt so much guilt in my body for that because I was like, he became like that when he was in my womb. That was definitely the the story that I told myself for a really long time. So I definitely think that I punished myself for that. And I took on a lot more of the listening to feelings and my husband because I was like, I did this. I have to undo it. Yeah, right. Was there a point where that became, you realized that that wasn't the truth? Um, I think over time, I just was like, even if it was me, what's done is done. Like I couldn't like I couldn't go back and change my pregnancy. Also, I was like, Yeah, I was incredibly stressed. We were, it was a pandemic. There was stuff that was happening within my family on the other side of the country that I could never, I couldn't go and be with them. We were told when we were pregnant, that Forbus was going to have Down syndrome. Like our pregnancy was really stressful. Yeah. And we'd also miscarried before Fergus, and so I was really stressed. Yeah, yeah. So even if, even if, like, there's certainly so many things that I probably could have done differently, but I just got to a point where I was like, I'm doing everything within my ability now to support his nervous system so that it can relax. I can't like I can't keep beating myself up for what the experience was for him because he's thriving now. Like I was. I was like Kim and I sacrificed a lot of ourselves and our relationship in that first year for Fergus to be How he is now. Yep. And I often think to myself, I can't even imagine the type of child that he would be now, if we hadn't supported him so much releasing the tension that he had in his body then. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What does your music look like now your music practice now that Fergus is a little older? Yeah. So he goes to date a family daycare two days a week. And so that's pretty much when I get to do anything outside of mothering. Because he is a full on child, I can't just set my Looper up. And when he's around this, he was just honestly, and it would be you'd set it up so that you could have fun with your child. Yeah. Yeah. So I Tuesdays and Wednesdays are the days that I can actually create music. And that's the days that I do all of my art and all of my work. And that's really it. Like, I sometimes do it in the evenings, after he goes to bed, because our My office is down the other end of the house, but I'm so tired. By the end of the day, he he wakes up between four and 430. Every single, every single morning, and he's ready to go. He's so turbo. Yeah, he's so turbo, that by the end of the day, you are us. You just you just absolutely exhausted. So I really, I just look forward to Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and I'm like, this morning, I was like, okay, I can actually like do all the things that it's hard. And the thing that I have struggled with the most is the fact that I used to spend my entire week. If I had any creative idea, I could write that in there, stick with it, and create and that was just, oh my gosh, it was so hard for me to have to, like lock in key ideas and be like later, later, later, later, because I was that person that was like, I'd have an idea in the morning and it would be recorded in the evening. Yeah, yeah. So that's been something the the amount of creativity that I am able to do is significantly less but because I think I went from so much to nothing. I two days a week feels like absolute heaven. I'm like, take it I'll take it oh my god one hour fantastic. Like cam can take focus out for like for an afternoon on the weekend. And I just get to stay home and do like anything to do with my art and I feel like a different woman. Yes. And so it's been like hard fought to get to this and I'm I think I'm like very grateful. I'm really quick at doing stuff now. Like even quicker than I was before. Because I go okay, you have four hours and you have to get all this done. Go like yes, like I don't I don't go with this work. I trust the idea. Trust the idea. And that's been the so it's definitely gotten me really like onto it. But right now it's two days a week that I have to do everything it's art is Chris's son so what sort of things are inspiring you at the moment with your, with your music? What are you sort of creating about, I guess, I am definitely processing my postpartum period through my music at the moment. I am writing songs that allow me to make sense of the experience that we had. Because we are kind of through that dark tunnel of that first really, almost two years of his life. I'm at a point where I'm like, Okay, I need to process what we what we went through, like I really need to, because my body still shakes when I talk about it. Like yeah, my body goes into like a trauma response when when we talk about that whole experience that we had, and I recognized that for me like therapy was great. But it didn't get everything that I needed out of my system. And so right now I'm the music that I'm recording for myself is definitely postpartum music that I'm hoping one day I can release because I know that there are other mothers that really need music that like validate is the experience that they're having? Absolutely. So that's the myself right now. That's the music I'm writing. But I'm also writing, actually, I'm running choir music. Because I have started a choir. Yes, I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, well, I have been, I think most singers that love the voice fantasize about either singing in a choir or having their own choir. And I was like, I had been thinking about it for years. I was like, three years ago, it's so great to have a choir because I used to lecture. And one of the classes that I lectured in was creative arranging and voice and we do a lot of choir stuff in that. And I was always, like, I'd love to be able to transpose some of the music that I write into acquire setting, to be a hero at like, live and just to be able to have other people get the opportunity to experience singing my, my arrangements, and I was like, Okay, so we're not in lockdown anymore. I'm not in Margaret River anymore. I don't have a newborn baby anymore. Like, I think the time is now. And I was like, um, I'll probably just like, run it from my house, maybe like 10 people, that'd be great. And then I was like, I don't have space to 10 cars. And so then I had a friend that I've met who has a shop in this particular pavilion and your Monday. She was like, why don't you hold it in the pavilion? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that mean that can hold more than 10 people? I don't know. And then I, and then I was like, Okay, maybe I'll just make the first choir session free so that people can come and have an idea about like, what is the type of music that I would create, and we were like, Let's hope for 20. And then I put the signup form, we had 70 people, oh, good for you. And I and my mind was blown, my mind was blown. I was like, oh, people want to sing. And I think the thing that I can recognize is that a lot of choirs around for an older demographic. And also, a lot of the music that they're singing isn't, if you haven't sung before, or if you haven't done in a while, it's can be quite daunting for a lot of people. And so my type of music that I write is, it's pretty repetitive, it's looping. So the parts once they have them, is a very easy for them. And I wanted it to be like focused on your part. And it might not be hard. But I want you to be able to understand how it fits within the context of the whole song, so that you can actually listen to all of the other parts going on. Yeah, and I suppose after being isolated for so long, I was just desperate to create something that allowed me to be with other people in a creative setting. Yeah. So that's kind of we had our first rehearsal on Sunday. And I think there was like 4045 people came, which was just wow, that was just amazing. And damn, they could sing. I was I went into it being like, I went into being like, I don't know, like, we'll see what level they're at. And they picked up parts so fast. I was like, Okay, I now know what type of choir I'm writing for. Yeah, and so it's just like, kind of like a dream, it's the first time that I'll be able to actually make money since becoming a mum. Because I have not really been able to work because of Fergus. And then we moved across the country. And so this is like really a really exciting and fulfilling way to actually make some kind of income for myself, as well, which is just like a added bonus, to be honest. Yes. Yeah. I gotta admit, when I when I saw that your Instagram reel that you created, you're working through that process of, do you think the terms right now and then you can tell us like, Oh, my God, I want to do that. Because it's like, no one does that everyone wants to sing, like, just crap songs, and, you know, versions of pop songs. It's like, getting back to what music is, you know, at its essence. Yeah, I had an experience years and years ago. Because through our, our vocal group, we'd get like, we go to places and learn things. And people come and visit and teach us things. And this guy just broke it all down one day said, he said, we're not going to sing anything, that we're not going to sing things with words, we're not going to, you're not gonna know this song. There's no structure to it. He didn't even give us sheet music. So straightaway, people are freaking out because this is not what we do. He gave us a chord and he just said, Pick a night in this court. And then he'd go over, like we had to hold it for a long time. So it was good way to practice our, you know, control vocal, and listen to the agility X to you. When are they going to breathe, you have to not breathe at the same time, all this sort of stuff that was held, it's good, it's good things there. But then it just go over to one part and it just say, just move your note. And so people are looking at each other like, oh, how do I move my note? What do I do? Where do I put it? I don't know what to do. And he's like, just trust yourself. Just just Just move your note. And so then people would just move their note. And then he'd come up to another group and just say, now you move on. And it was just the most freeing experience. And I still couldn't let as I'm telling you, I can see it in my head, it was so wonderful. I was like, we don't need all these bells and whistles and all this stuff that goes with it. You know, it's just getting back to the essence of it. And it was amazing. And I think the thing that I recognize is that people feel so intimidated by singing, for so intimidated by singing, because, you know, the music that you hear on the radio are either very auto tuned or from trained singers. And so there aren't many spaces that exist for them to have the opportunity to actually sing. And most people can hold a note, like, even those that believe they're tone deaf, it's just the muscle of super underdeveloped, so the more you use it, the better your ear and vocal muscle gets. Yeah. And I was just like, I want people to have the opportunity to sing something that's not a radio song, that where that you're expressing an emotion, because you're part of a whole, like really having that idea that you are a really important piece of this puzzle. And it might not be a hard part. But you actually have the opportunity to develop your ears and understand how your part is, like the context of it. Yeah, where you fit in and where we fit in. You know how important your party is like, yeah, I remember at one point being in was doing an SSA arrangement, and I was first our show, and we were literally a drone. We had a drone, honestly, one of the most important ones. Yeah, God. Yes. And I said that all the time. I say that all the time. I'm like, the Jerome note is literally one of the most important notes in almost every arrangement that I do, because of how all the other notes are affected by that one note. It's like the the level of tension that you can create from a moving parts and how that one note actually influences. Yeah, yeah, I, there was a group on Sunday that for one song, their note was a drone note and I was like, I want you to take this opportunity to feel what this drone note actually is here to make you feel like why is that drone note here? Like if without it? What are the other parts sound like? Yeah, yeah, it's and I, you almost as if you listen to my music, there's almost always a drone note in the songs. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's so important. It is so important. And then, years later, obviously, years and years and years later, my son now plays the bagpipes. And when you hear it, when you hear those drones fire up, they're like, Yeah, I get this, like, they're the heart and soul. Like they're the bits that you know, the hold everything together. And I always hated how people, they played, like these jokes on our toes like this, the joke like the sopranos says to the alto, the melody and they go, Oh, I don't get it. And they're like, Yeah, course you don't get it, like you never get the tune. But it's like, the tune is the most boring part of Yeah, it's always underneath that just drives it. Well, it's like that's the when I think about harmony, it's like, it's really easy for most singers to sing a third above. The third below is the like the harmony that creates like the most important texture, but it's also the hardest for someone's ear to actually be able to hear. So it's like something that I always work on. It's like the you've got your melody and you've got your Harmony above, but that harmony below is what gives like the rich texture of your sound. So low voices are just like, so important to me, because of the impact that they have on a harmony. Because it's like I when I think of harmonies, I think of like, a really important balance. And if you have too many harmonies that sit higher in a register, your your balance is like off put and suddenly, the top harmonies are starting to really ping out rather than it being like a really perfect balance. Yeah, and I mean, the only reason I am so obsessive over those because I've spent so much time listening to harmony, and so much time listening to how harmony impacts me emotionally. And when I go into a song, I'm always like, how do I want people to feel when they hear this and being able to pick notes that I know will elicit those emotions, but that just comes with like, a lot of a lot of time. Yeah, I think a real interest in in being able to express some like something audibly with no words. It's also like it's when, when it doesn't have words, people's minds don't have to think so much. Because what I often find is people who aren't necessarily singers, they get really stressed about having to remember words if you're not using a book. And what I found is with singers that aren't, you know, choir singers, like haven't had that type of training, their head will be so down in their book trying to remember their part that they're actually missing half What's the point of singing with other people? Yeah, that's it, it becomes this insular thing that you're just focusing on yourself. Yeah, yeah. And so that's just why I do it's like, quite simply, it's for them to be up at around each other. Yeah. My God My says, the memory of my legs. When you said before, about listening to each other, I feel like that is the most underrated part of part seeing people get so focused on themselves, like, and you said about heads in books. But I could, I could literally for years seeing other people's parts, because you spent so much time working out where you fit in, and perhaps why you fit in to this where you see as part of his whole group, it's so important, and I think it teaches you so much about, like life skills, you know, listening to each other. When When do you need to back off? When is it, you know, time for you to come forward? And you're blending and listening to those around you like that? When I said before about when you take your breath like, well, we're not good at listening as a society. Yeah, absolutely. It's when like, it's really easy to see that we're not very good at listening to others, because we're always thinking about the thing that we're going to say next. And so it's like, singing in a group l gives you the opportunity to, and it kind of forces you to have to listen to others. And it's like, it's why I make it's why I do things really specifically of not having like books to read from and making parts simple and repetitive. Because I want to give people the opportunity to work on their listening skills. Because then they just have that like ability to be like, Oh, I could switch parts I could. Like I can hear their part. If someone next to me is struggling to hear their part. I can help them find their part. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it definitely definitely oh my gosh, I remember singing in choirs, and your head would be down. And you'd just be following the words. And I just be following the music writing on the page. And I wouldn't be caring if I was singing too loud. Like that's the other thing is like, yeah, everyone wants to be the soloist. Yeah, that's like you go okay, but you're part of a hole. Which means if you can't hear the Alto or you can't hear the sopranos, then you're already singing too loud. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it teaches you so much doesn't Yeah, I think it's such a beautiful opportunity. Like, I love the spaces that choirs can, like the right type of wires can create. Put that caveat in there? That's so exciting. I'm so pleased you're doing that. I think it's a wonderful expansion of your, you know, sharing your, say your wave of music, but it's like, yeah, it can't you know what I mean? It kind of like no, I do. It's like my, the way that I write like I'm giving it. And the thing that I was told over and over on Sunday was it's like, people were really looking forward to having an opportunity to sing the type of music that I write. Yes. And I was like, oh, yeah, well, that's that that meant so much to me, because it's like, as we've said, I've spent so long worrying that the type of music that I wrote wasn't didn't fit anywhere. And then to have people be like, Oh, I've seen these parts at home, or I listened. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, absolutely. I sing. I sing these harmonies by myself in the shower. I'm like, You kidding me? Like, I yeah, it's just been such a beautiful validation of what I have chosen to be as an artist. Yes, absolutely. And I would love to be able to, like, I would want to create a choir in Sunshine Coast, but I want to take like a live loops workshop and be able to take what I do to a day long workshop somewhere in other places that because other people would love the opportunity to sing these types of arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, it is really it's a really exciting project. And I'm just like, feel so fulfilled, but it feels really like in alignment with what I do. Yeah. And I think that's what I've been trying to find is like, I don't want to teach people singing how to sing well, like I don't have no interest in teaching technique. I'm like, there are so many singing teachers out there. Like I want to create spaces where people get to experience harmony, because harmony has had such a profound impact on me. And my ability to cope with life. Yeah. Oh, that's why I'm so pleased for you. Honestly, it's just sounds crisp, I can be my heart swell. You know, it's just wonderful. I really I'm really, really pleased for you. And I'm very jealous that I'm not there. I'm I just have to come down the coast. Do you come down a long way? Right to the bottom of the mainland. Sorry, just on that if there's payment listening that are in your neck of the woods So what's the best way for them to get in touch if they're interested in in a bit more, we will be social media. So my instagram handle is the dot Edwina dot Masson, Ma, Double S O n. That's where pretty much everything that I do everything that I offer, all the links to all of my work is that's kind of where I play at the moment. So that would be that that would be the spot and just message me or email me any, like, beautiful girl up? I'm pretty, I'm pretty easy to contact. That's awesome. Yep. So we're just about to start term one. So it's going to run in terms, and at the end of each term, we're going to have like a little concert. And so that's kind of where my focus is at creatively focuses. Yeah, one thing at a time choir, establish the choir. Yeah. And on that, I think it is important for people to have a goal to be to perform, because I've been at times in a group where you don't have any, you're just singing, it's like, that's lovely. We love it. But to be able to then actually put yourself up there is like a whole new kettle of fish, you know, for people to get to witness the work that they've put in, you know, I mean, I'm just like, I really believe. Yeah, and because then it gives other people permission to do the same thing. It's like, this isn't a bunch of people that have grown up to having singing, training or singing in choirs, but then when you see them sing together as a group, and they can see how they've improved from the start of the term to the end of the term. Because it's important for me to be able to teach them technique and teach them how to braid properly and teach them how to warm their voice up. It's, they would be remiss of me to like, just get them singing and not care about their vocal health. Yeah. I even heard people saying at choir, they could hear the difference in their voice from the start of that two hours to the end of the two hours, because of the muscle, like because of them actually using that muscle. Yeah. And it's like, I want to give people the opportunity one to hear the work that these people have been putting in, but to then maybe even try it themselves. Absolutely. And see that it's actually it's not this way out scary thing that's only accessible to people who've been, you know, tracing. elite group of people. Yeah, that's how it definitely can feel. Yes, yeah. And so and then when you give people the opportunity to actually sing with other people, you realize that most people can sing everybody has a voice, like, Yeah, everybody has a voice. Yeah, there's people that tell me they can't see I'm like, you just don't know how to use your instrument. Literally. That's me, you know, every muscle a thing in your body that we all have, you know, it's just like some people are born with the ability to run faster than others before they've ever been trained. And then they choose because they have, they're better at that party, that muscle is more developed, then they might choose to become a runner. Some people's vocal cords, or their ears are born more developed with more of an aptitude for music. But it just because the starting point is different doesn't mean you don't have the ability to work to be as good or whatever, it's just a muscle a muscle that can be stressing it literally and you learn that that's really obvious when when you've been a singer for a while, and you get some training and you go Holy shit, I can do this as well. I didn't know that, you know? Yeah, it's like I don't sound like I sound like I did when I was 15 You know what I mean? Like I had a good voice when I was 15. But I sound nothing like I did then because I've had training so I've just worked on the muscle and the more you do it, the more flexibility the muscle has and the more agility it has. And yeah, so I definitely believe in like just give it a shot and I want to create spaces that give the people the the opportunity to safely do that. Yeah, no, I'm good on Yeah, that's it's so inspiring. I'm really pleased for you and I'm gonna follow the journey along on your Instagram I'm really really pleased for you that's wonderful too chatting with you it's been lovely. I feel energized and light and bubbly. Now I feel like I need to go record something for how Yeah, that's what I'm gonna be doing I would be like, like, peace out. I'll get my recording studio open. Yeah, thank you so much for having me these I always value having a space opera like opportunity to share my journey and to share my story with others because I I know that my experience and what I do can hopefully make other people feel less alone. And and so I I am very thankful to to you for having a space or Thank you. Thank you and I'm frozen still, but I'm sorry. No. I know I like you face has been frozen in some great position. It's hilarious, isn't it? Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or subscribing to the pod Fast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom ee the day Hi mean I know lives for was I must was five okay I will see you God

Alex McLaughlin Canadian acrylic and watercolour artist, S2 Ep36 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I welcome Alex McLaughlin to the podcast, Canadian acrylic and watercolour artist and mum of 2 boys from Midland Ontario. Raised in Honey Harbour on Georgian Bay , Alex was fortunate enough to have a childhood full of love and opportunity. Her summers can be best characterized by exploration, swimming, boating, and working for the family business. Having the opportunity to be on the water nearly every day since she was born has never been something she has never taken for granted. After working as a paramedic on the streets of Toronto for many years, Alex felt the pull to return to her childhood home, and now lives there with her husband and 2 boys. She now focuses solely on her art, working out of her home studio which allows her to to maximize precious painting time and be the present mother she has always wanted to be. Put simply, Alex feels like she is now doing what she was always meant to be doing. Ever since Alex was little, her grandmother encouraged her to practice and appreciate the arts as a way to document her life. Alex is a predominately self taught artist, but after taking a watercolour course by local Canadian artist John Hartman everything seemed to make sense for her and allowed her to explore her local area with a new set of eyes. Recently, Alex created her first-ever painting series that is very close to her heart: Georgian Bay Reflections . Using vibrant colour and layered brush strokes, Alex feels her way through each piece until its depth and composition are reminiscent of this special place that was, is and always will be home. Through the power of her expressionism artform, Alex's hope for us is to be reminded of how the simple and natural things in life are the most beautiful. In a world that seems to be evolving faster than ever before, Most of all her wish is to have us stop and experience, even just for a moment, the beauty of life translated through art. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety, OCD and depression** Visit Alex's website The Massasauga Rattler Snake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGW3MSt8nJI Beam Paints https://www.beampaints.com/ is the paint company Alex mentioned who she found making water colour paints locally. Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I welcome Alex McLaughlin to the podcast. Alex is a Canadian acrylic and watercolor artist and a mum of two boys from Midland Ontario. Raised in honey Harbor on Georgian Bay, Alex was fortunate enough to have a childhood full of love and opportunity. His summers can be best described by exploration, swimming, boating, and working for the family business. Having the opportunity to be on the water nearly every day since she was born has never been something she's taken for granted. After working as a paramedic on the streets of Toronto for many years, Alex felt the pull to return to her childhood home and now lives there with her husband and two boys. She focuses solely on her art working out of her home studio, which allows her to maximize precious painting time and be the present mother she's always wanted to be. Put simply, Alex feels like she's now doing what she was always meant to be doing. Ever since Alex was little, her grandmother encouraged her to practice and appreciate the arts as a way to document her life. Alex is a predominantly self taught artist. But after taking a watercolor course by local Canadian artists, John Hartman, everything seemed to make sense for her and allowed her to explore her local area with a new set of eyes. Recently, Alex created her first ever painting series that is very close to her heart, entitled Georgian Bay reflections. Using vibrant color and layered brushstrokes. Alex feels her way through each piece until its depth and composition are reminiscent of the special place that was is and always will be her home through the power of her expressionist art form. Alex's hope for us is to be reminded of how the simple and natural things in life are the most beautiful in a world that seems to be evolving faster than ever before. Most of all, her wish is to have a stop and experience even for just a moment. The beauty of life translated through art. This episode contains discussion around anxiety, OCD, and depression. Thanks so much for coming on today. Alex. It's such a pleasure to meet you all the way from Canada today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. Absolutely. It's such a pleasure. So tell us whereabouts you are in Canada. So I live in Midland, Ontario on Georgian Bay. It's a it's a massive Bay off of Lake Huron, one of the Great Lakes. And we're about an hour and a half an hour and a half north of Toronto. People call it cottage country, cottage country, what's the meaning behind that? Um, most people from the city that own cottages will head north pretty much every weekend. I know that people call it something different in many parts of the world. But yeah, it's called a cottage here. And most of them in my area are not tiny little cabins, a lot of them are are very extravagant. They're not exactly cottages they like made quite a bit of money has moved up here in the past, like 20 years so and then we're pretty close to Muskoka right next to us as well, which is can be kind of fancy, like major wakeboarding culture. And, ah, yeah, it's a pretty amazing place to have grown up and to live now. I left her about 12 years with school and my previous career and then moved back up here five years ago, so we're nice and settled in again. Yeah, yeah. So what's the weather like there? Now I have this real obsession with finding out temperatures and weather around the world, people I chat to were pretty extreme. Which I like So it's it's warming up a little bit now like today was gray and cloudy and and it was still cold it was I think minus seven or minus six Celsius. Yeah. Because you're in your Celsius so today was like warm compared to what it's been. It's been minus 20 to minus 30. Recently. Yeah, we were ice fishing this morning. Oh, my parents this and there was 20 inches of ice. Oh, wow. We don't seem to say you get that much ice. It's it's a good winter for ice and like people snowmobile all over the lake. Yeah, nice. Good. So, yeah, we have a very extreme weather we have like the lake effect. So we get tons and tons of snow. You have to. Some people don't have one, but it's very helpful to have a snowblower here. Like your full time job would be shoveling throughout the winter if you didn't have a snowblower so well, yeah, it's very extreme in the winter. And then we have pretty awesome warm, humid summers, so Oh, well. Yeah, the best of both worlds. So what's your sort of average champion Summer? Summer, like we we truly do have spring we have all all the seasons. So the spring can seem very, very long when we're anxious for the summer to come. But pretty reliably June, like through September now, anywhere from, like 18 degrees to it can be extreme heat warnings of you know, 40 degrees, sometimes, well, for about two months, we get between, I guess 25 And like 32, something like that. So that is amazing. It is that is truly amazing that you can have like zero like monastery up to like 40. That is incredible. Yeah. And we don't always have like a cold winter like this. I prefer it because then you can do stuff on the ice. And you can go skiing and snowboarding and all of that stuff. Like we are only 20 minutes from a hill. Not a big hill. It's not I wouldn't call it a mountain. But we have a few options here. And and then we have an ice rink in our backyard as well. We started that last year because of the pandemic and not being able to really go out right so yeah, yeah, no, I absolutely love it. The winters can be tough for sure. And most people will fly south during the winter for at least one trip. And and we're making the best of all the winter activities now. So yeah, that sounds amazing. I haven't I didn't realize places like that existed where you could have like a normal summer basically, and then have massive, massive winter. Yeah, it's really, for a lot of people. It's all about the summer here because the summers are really incredible. I've actually traveled in Australia and quite a few places. And the one thing I really missed while traveling was having my own boat because I don't live on an ocean and I'm so used to being able to boat like there's actually 30,000 islands in my area. All you kidding. It's the largest freshwater are archipelago. I think I said that right. archipelago, sorry. Which means just like the largest cluster of islands in freshwater in the world. It's yeah, so very interesting boating culture here. Yeah, right. Actually, that reminds me is it like, this is like a real left of field but the Ozarks TV show where they take boats everywhere. Is that kind of like? Totally. I would I would call the Ozarks a little bit more like Muskoka because there's a whole bunch of, they call them Muskoka lakes. So there's great lakes, where it's a lot more sheltered. Georgian Bay has much more open water in certain areas. So you can have all those, like nooks where it's protected if you stay in, like honey harbor is where I grew up. It's just a small drag from here. But then you can go to open water where you can't see anything and you feel like you're on the ocean. So yeah, we actually traveled to an island and a lighthouse on an island called the Western islands. And it takes about two to two and a half hours of driving fast, like straight in one direction not being able to see any thing, and then the island emerges out of nowhere. You post stuff like that with friends and get just like for safety but pretty wild. That sounds like an incredible place to leave. That's just wow. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. That's lovely I was reading on your website, you talked about honey Harbor, how you were so deeply connected to that Georgian Bay Area. And I love that your quote with the way that you describe things, its life translated through art in love that I'm primarily a self taught painter. I have been mostly doing acrylic paintings and, and mostly large scale, I really like to paint large, starting to mix in some smaller stuff, because painting large all the time is difficult with time management. But yeah, so that's mostly what I've focused on. And I've and I've recently been mixing in using watercolors as well, as more of like a daily paint. I was always super creative as a kid. Like I really took every project to the creative extreme in high school, stuff like that. But I didn't really sorry. And I was also very involved in the arts, just not fine art. So I was a competitive dancer for many years. And I played classical guitar until the end of high school. It's like I was always very involved in something that was really creative, but didn't really stumble upon painting until university actually. I had taken one elective course throughout my psychology degree, and got to do art. And we did two weeks of painting. So I just learned the basics. And I honestly didn't really I wasn't very proud of any any of the projects that we had in that class. But then beyond that year of taking that class, it stuck with me and I did a lot of paintings like for gifts for family and did a few commission jobs. And throughout the years, I kept coming back to it so and then I didn't get really serious about it until 2018 When I moved back here to Midland I was living closer to the city to Toronto, for my husband, because I was actually a paramedic in Toronto for eight years before diving into the art full time. You said that the painting you first like you discovered that at uni? Was there anyone else like in your family like growing up was painting ever exposed to earlier than that? So not necessarily painting. But I was gonna mention my grandmother I called her only because she she was German. She's passed now but so my mother's mother took care of us a lot. She helped out a lot with babysitting. A lot of my memories are with her. And she was super interested in art. She painted herself as well. But mainly she was a photographer. Yeah, right. Yeah, she didn't consider herself professional by any means. She struggled financially a lot of the time. But yeah, she was the one that really encouraged me would sit me down with all the materials for drawing. I remember her teaching me sort of like a just the way to draw certain things like a barn and she had a way to instruct me how to do that. And then it also remember doing a lot of like still life like vases with flowers in them and stuff with very special markers that she would get me. Yeah, somehow I never really got into painting with like professional paints. It's funny that I don't remember touching that until university. Yeah, she was the early influence. My parents were always super supportive. But they. And my mom is very creative herself with like interior design. And my dad is a builder. And so yeah, like, it's in the family. But yeah, she was my push for sure. And like she is one of the reasons. I do it today. And I sort of had the confidence to go for it. And I know, even though she's not here physically, yeah, I know. I hope that she knows what I'm doing. Yeah. Be proud. So yeah, that's really special. Oh, that's lovely. Growing up, so. Oh, so she didn't she wasn't alive, to see change careers and come back to Oh, yeah, she met my first son, who he's seven now. But she found out she was sick, like within that first year that he was born. So yeah, it's really kind of tragic, but but she clearly lives on through a lot of us. My aunt who's like her other daughter, is also an artist, and like, has been pursuing it more seriously as well. So yeah. Oh, that's lovely. It's like the legacy that's carried on through the family. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love the quote that you've got on your website, when you said I'm finally doing what I was meant to do. Yes, like you had to go through all this other stuff and maybe discover what you didn't want to do before you went? Actually I want to do was that was that an easy decision? Or hard in some ways to just give up, I want to say a nine to five like, solid job. I had worked really hard to be a paramedic. You so yeah, that was the part that was really hard for me was I've always been very introspective. And trying to balance what was going to make me the happiest I was, I was so lucky to have like an upbringing with all these opportunities, right. So I was trying to figure out a path that would make me super happy, but also seemed like a smart, logical path. Which led me to do this, like psychology degree, and I was considering business and all these other things. But I guess deep down inside, like, I was always very creative. And then, and I loved my career as a paramedic, super competitive, to get into school to get hired right out of school. And then it takes about five years of doing that job to start to feel settled and comfortable and not just freaked out and in a few of the situations, right. Yeah, it takes a long time to build that confidence. And then when we started having a family, it's like I knew we were going to have to make some tough decisions. Financially, you know, mortgage was going to become difficult. My husband is also a paramedic in Toronto, and he's he's still doing it there. And I just couldn't imagine doing the double shiftworker family with children, you basically have to hire a live in nanny to make it work. And then I just be working to pay for somebody else to take care of my children. And yeah, so I was starting to feel like a little bit. I was frustrated for sure, like knowing that these big changes were coming. But it's funny because now I'm happier than ever. And I really do think that just trusting the process not only like in my art but in life is super important. I have always been when not to make too many strict plans. I know that things can change. I especially learned that as a paramedic, right and just to really not take anything for granted and and try and appreciate every day as it comes and then know that they're the changes will come and I just tried to roll with it the best I can. So that's what we did. And I knew I needed to have something of my own. Like something really exciting to look forward to. As I was approaching that moment of officially quitting my paramedic career and moving on so yeah, I, I took a year leave of absence when we moved up north, away from the city, which it also that provided some major financial relief, by the way. So like all these changes were to set us up so that I could be at home with the kids and not worry as much about money, because leaving that Job was was a big paycheck as well. Yeah. So yeah, we moved north, and we're actually mortgage free because of the move, because we moved really like from very close to the city to two hours north where most people wouldn't, wouldn't go that far, right. And it was, it was tough. Like it was, even though I had grown up here, it didn't have too many strong friendships remaining like in that immediate area. So I really had to start over. Build those new connections and, and it eventually happened. But yeah, for a few years, it was tough. And so yeah, when we moved up, I took the year leave of absence. And then for about four months, I just was trying to, I was stressing over what to paint, I knew I was going to try and pursue painting. I just didn't know what I should paint because I wanted it to be successful. So I put a lot of pressure on that. But I just started painting all kinds of different things, different themes. You and and then enough work to sort of build a cohesive series, because A, in my research, I realized that was very important to make it as an artist or to get, you know, just to be successful, like to sell work and be represented or whatever. So yeah, just worked really hard to build a cohesive body of work. And then I launched my website, as soon as I had officially quit the paramedic job. And the response was amazing. I sold two original pieces, I think within the first two weeks, which is a nice boost of confidence. Yeah. And then yeah, it was a bit of a whirlwind, like lots, lots of cool opportunities. But then I got into the the fun, like figuring out the balance of trying to run my own business and be the full time mom and having a shiftworker husband, who's gone a week at a time kind of thing. So yeah, that was like a new area that you were like trying to work out the balance. Yeah. Well, you know, thankfully, it was busy and I wasn't bored. And I think that keeps you happier. Right. Especially when you're in a new place and and away from your, you know, the friendships I had established in the city and stuff, huh? Yeah. Yeah, just just an interesting, a lot of changes. But we we believed that that was the best thing to do for our family. And I feel like it all worked out. Really did. And I do feel like I am exactly where I should be because being back home has informed my art greatly. Like when I was saying I didn't know what to paint. Eventually, I figured it out because I just started painting what I know best. Yeah. Yeah, that was the water that I had grown up on. And it's just mean like the response I've had from people. They really love that series. Oh, yeah. Now I'm at a point where I've done I don't know how many of them I've done. It's it's around 25 of them. And I'm ready to I'm ready to mix it up a bit. So yeah, it's kind of cool to be successful in something like that and then know that I sort of have that as my fallback but and then but I'm always wanting to try new things. So yeah, and I'm at right now yeah. So is that where the water colors start to come in a bit like you're just sort of testing out what else he can do and yes, so I'm trying to figure wrote that does have a lot to do with just like incorporating my practice into my life and trying to be more efficient. Because I've never really been able to involve my kids in the studio too much. I have two really active boys. I tried I really did try to to just be casual about it and set them up and but yeah, my oldest was could not sit still he'd get into the the worst things, you know, like climbing the walls. So and I didn't want to say no, I didn't want to say no all the time, right. So we kind of avoided being in the studio too much. earlier on. Now I am learning what they prefer. I have to set my my oldest seven year old he has to be set up with an easel and he takes my light and he sets it up. But he's he's very short lived though. Like he'll pay it for about maybe 10 minutes and then that's it. And then he's gone and he hasn't cleaned up and and then my five year old is on the floor like still like rubbing the paint into the broken paper. Like he gets really into it. Yeah. And then everyone's gone. And it just gets busy. So yeah. Lots of having boys Hey, yeah. The the watercolor like that medium. It was sort of a magical thing. I took a water color course, online during the pandemic from John Hartman, who is a huge artists here in Canada. And luckily, he's local. Yeah, I actually know his his niece's here, I played volleyball with them growing up. And so there's like a bit of a connection there. He had never met me though. And I took this class online, and I've taken many, like several art classes, this one was just different. And it something clicked. And he, I think grew up similar to me, has like, a very special appreciation for the land, and just just this unique corner of the world, right. And he's he's obviously very into nature and all of the animals and all of the patterns and and he's been very, very successful here. So the local gallery got him to teach this class. I took it from him. And it just seemed to make sense for me as well, the way that he was taking his watercolor kit out to the islands if he would go like by canoe or kayak or whatever. And so I decided to prepare like a waterproof backpack, prep all of the paper and, and then I discovered these incredible, this incredible paint company where the paints made on Manitoulin Island. It's actually five hours north of us. Yeah, but it just felt so right because they're very focused on producing plastic free. Like the pigments are almost a lot of them are sourced locally on Manitoulin Island, and then they use tree sap, local honey, all of these things as like their binders, and it's just completely natural paints. So I feel good about going out and like washing my brush in the lake. Yes, water and then using the natural paints that she's made, and it's just amazing. So that's such an incredible connection isn't a lot. That's just amazing. Beautiful. Yeah, because they really do care about that as well. Like I am painting about my connection with the bay and then using things that are made here to create the work is yeah, it just feels really right. So I was really excited about that. And I'm getting better at being more consistent and remembering that backpack it was just always ready to go. Yeah, I'm not the most organized person so it's taken a few years for me to get myself sorted like that and know that I have to prep a few things to sit to enable myself to create in those busy situations and our children are old enough now that it's not so crazy to have my husband watch them while I take half an hour to paint so yeah, yeah. Good day The pandemic really pushed me to want to explore locally more, as it I'm sure has for many people, I love traveling, my husband loves traveling, we really miss it. And so this island hopping culture that exists here, I didn't do that growing up, my parents were always working. And I was always boating and working at marinas and like very familiar on a boat, but not really exploring. There's a lot of public islands that you can, that you can go and have a picnic for the day and, and they're really amazing and really rugged and picturesque and challenging. A lot of people don't do it because there's you could hit rocks everywhere where your boat here, like, just beneath the surface. So for some people, it's a bit too risky, or expensive to be hitting rocks with your boat. Oh, yeah, I have this level of comfort with the bay and boating. I used to to live and work on the water for many years. So yeah, it's a really. Yeah. That's incredible. Oh, just hearing your story. It just I don't want to say it sounds perfect, because nothing's perfect. But just the way things have come together for you just sounds just ideal to so. Yeah. And I, I knew that there was just something about this place when I traveled because when I, when I first traveled after university, I went on my own, I did a solo backpacking trip in Australia. And that led to many other trips to different countries until I went back to college for paramedics, and then it kind of halted the traveling and the art and everything. But now yeah, I'm coming back to it. And I didn't know how much I missed it here until I returned with my kids. And I felt like I could almost breathe easier just being surrounded by nature and the trees and I honestly didn't know how much I missed it though. Because I'm pretty happy wherever I go. I truly appreciate the city. I loved living downtown Toronto. The excitement of being a paramedic downtown was amazing. You know, I was happy I thought but I think I am much happier here. So but yeah, we also don't know, I guess we never really think in forever. My husband and I are adventurous. And he's from the east coast of Canada. So we we go there often and that's pretty amazing out there too. But when he talks about it, I I don't know if I could move there. Right. It's mostly just leaving Georgia and bay that would stress me out. So yeah. Anyway, I'm really enjoying being here right now. And it's yeah, it's inspired me so much. And gotten me on a pretty amazing foot with my art career so far. I wanted to mention, I'll put a link for people to have a look at the way that you paint the water. Right. It's just It looks like a photo. Like it looks so real. And I actually paint properly. I just mess around with painting. So I'm really interested in painting because I can't do it. I love like zooming in like how do you do that? Like it just looks real? Just beautiful. And yeah, that series that you mentioned before. Just all those pieces that just like you feel like you could literally dive into the paintings. They're just so real. So yeah, I just love them. Yeah, all right. First of all, I think that anybody can paint. It's, it is a practice, right? You just, you get better as you do it more or not necessarily even better, because I'm trying to get back to like a loose lit a looseness actually, that I had before I did these water pieces, and they have progressively gotten more realistic. Which wasn't really my intention. It's just I seem to be getting pickier with it right. And I, I can't leave it alone, like I just go further and further and further with them as I do more of those pieces. So yeah, I get very intense about them. So I honestly just think it's the amount of layers. And I will just keep painting until I'm happy with it right. And, and I do paint from a photo for the water pieces, because they wanted, it's just something I always wanted to try. I had tried painting several things. And it's interesting, because when I look back at my early paintings, like way before I knew I would pursue this as a career, the water element was there. And a lot of a lot of my pieces not not in exactly the same style, but it was there. And yeah, there's just something about it that feels like home to me and nostalgic. And I feel like the water here is very unique to other places in the world I've been. It's beautiful in all of these different places, too. But there's something very special to me about it here. And I think just with the response I've had, it seems like people that are cottagers here really identify with it too. Yeah, they're really drawn to it. Yeah, there's something about when you walk down on the dock, because we have a floating dock. And which is different from a lot of places in the world. We don't have tides. So yeah, when you go down to the dock, you feel like you're so surrounded by water in a in a really unique way to it's different from working on a beach, or Yeah. I don't know, you know, all the different ways that you can be next to the water. There's something very unique about floating on air. Like you're connected to it straight away, like you're already part of it. You can feel the move, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and I don't get that feeling all the time. It's usually when I've been away for a while and then I go down. You're standing there and it's kind of overwhelming. I remember coming back after being away for almost a year, right. So yeah, it's pretty cool. I'm very lucky. You've mentioned the children a little bit in passing. Tell us a little bit more a bit about your boys. Yeah, they're loved them. Um, so my oldest is Charlie, he's seven. And then my younger boy is five and his name is Van. And I also have a Newfoundland puppy as well. Oh. He, we had we had another one before him and unfortunately lost him through the pandemic. So this is a COVID puppy. Do it again. And yeah, very, very active household. It always has been. But it suits it suits myself and my husband. We are not good at sitting at home. We're extremely adventurous. So and now we're taking our kids along with us on those adventures. They are learning to drive the boat. They are there in Forest School as well once a week, which I love. So they're just they're super resilient kids like they go out in that minus 20 degree weather the entire day at school. And then I'll pick them up and I was so you know, I'm always a little worried about their hands and feet. And then they'll tell me that they were too hot. So because I put a sweater on them very particular layering system Man, you, you know, the types of clothes you have to put on the kids to do that sort of thing but love it. And yeah, we're outdoors, hours and hours a day like, we don't stay indoors very much. And that was I always wanted to raise them like that. But then the pandemic pushed me to turn to nature even more way to deal with the anxieties and stuff that would come up with all of this. My oldest son got very anxious with like the first sort of flip flopping locked down back to school, that kind of stuff. It was really hard on him, but at the time, he was five years old. So yeah, I find five is a really interesting age to be dealing with complicated things like that. So yeah, it's like the brains not quite developed enough to make sense of it, but they can understand quite a lot. So it's really hard for them to, you know, comprehend things and deal with them. Yeah. So he definitely has some OCD. Which, you know, we we haven't taken them to get diagnosed, because we were a little bit worried about that, at that age to like, what the effect of actually going and getting a diagnosis. Just, we just wanted to see if we could deal with it on our own first, and it did get a bit scary, for sure. But he's doing amazing now and we've figured out some coping strategies. We're lucky with the internet, right? You can do so much research on your own. Yeah, we were open to if we felt like we couldn't handle it, I had the name and number of someone to call, but got through it. And you just never know when it's when things like that are gonna creep up on you with the kids. Challenging, challenging time. Yeah, that's for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. Ellie, you mentioned that being a paramedic was good at sort of allowing you just to go with the flow and things are unexpected things change? Do you think that's sort of helped you being a parent in the way that things are always changing unexpected things? And for sure, yeah, absolutely. I think that was sort of in my personality anyway, and, and why I enjoyed being a paramedic so much. And, but yeah, like that experience, I knew that I would never regret becoming a paramedic, even if it was not the be all end all of what I was going to do, you know, having those skills, I would never regret it. It's pretty cool. And I my style, honestly, was to not worry about the call details. Because you get when you get a call, you get a bunch of details. And most of the time, it's completely different. When Yeah, when you arrive. Yeah. Somebody on the phone? Yeah, people in emergencies can't describe. Can't describe what's going on accurately most of the time. Yeah. So you'd like to discard that. Basically, when you get there you make your own assessments and work from that sort of thing. Yeah, I just tried to always have a really open mind. Honestly, though, my husband is an incredible paramedic, and he has a completely different approach. He actually goes through all of the possibilities, and all of the protocol protocols for all of those possibilities. So he's the one practicing it all in his mind before he walks in. So he knows the dosage and everything medications, whereas I I was different in that. Yeah, I would more roll with it. Because it's it's dangerous to get tunnel visioned. Especially in that job, right. Yeah. So yeah. And I think that has reflected In my life as a parent, for sure, you learn pretty quickly that as soon as you get the routine going, it changes. Prizes and, and your, your children usually turn out very, very to be very different personalities. So yeah, it's it's pretty cool. Something really neat about my oldest son, the one that had all of that anxiety. He's I think it's because he's such an empath we've learned, he picks up on everything right, no matter how much we were trying to keep our cool at the beginning of all of it. Everybody was holding their breath and watching the news too much. And yeah, it was. It was terrifying. So And I honestly just snapped back into paramedic mode. I was not thinking about art at all. Yeah, yeah. And I was almost feeling guilty that I got out of that profession. Like before this happened. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because this is just so huge. It's like something that you prepare for, and you hope never happens. But yeah, it was happening. And my son, yeah, he just picks up on everything. Even when you don't know that. It's like that you're stressed out or you're depressed, or whatever it is. So yeah, things kind of fall apart when I get when mom gets super stressed or overwhelmed. And then I start seeing issues in my kids with their anxiety. So he keeps me in check. I have to take care of myself and keep a balance and not forget to get back to exercising when I can and all of those things. Or yeah, I find we have issues. So huh. That's it if mom's not happy. It's challenging, but I really appreciate that about him. So I'm super lucky, right? I'm at home with him. I don't have to leave the house to go to work. We made some tough decisions to put me in this position. But so I know I'm very very lucky. Some people aren't as fortunate right. And life is tough. It's sometimes impossible to get out of debt for a lot of people now so that's easy. Yeah, so I really just appreciate Yeah, I'm able to do and be at home with them and be super in tune with my kids absolutely YEAH. I just wanted to ask just on that when you're talking about the, the pandemic Did you ever consider thinking I need to go back and help like, did you ever think or I'm I'm a paramedic? I can I can help with it's yeah, um, um, I think it crossed my mind. But so yeah, I was feeling guilty, but I know I didn't have the urge to walk away from the art that I had yet into and protecting my family. I sure applied it in all of my conversations with friends. You know, like talking through it with people. Then like new connections that I made helping friends with anxiety The stuff like that. And just like explaining things in like a medical way was really helpful. Like we we obviously could grasp what was going on in a different way from a lot of other people, which was scary actually. It's like you knew you knew exactly what was happening. And that was a little bit too much. Honestly sitting there thinking, why aren't we doing what New Zealand is doing? Like, why are we not locking everything down right away? Like what is taking so long? And there were real repercussions because of that, but but nobody really knows. Right? So. Yeah, it's yeah, that's the thing. They're all making decisions. On the fly. Basically, there's no book about how to deal with this. It's never really happened. Before your best. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But on that, New Zealand's done amazing. They're still not letting Australians back in. Like, that's how good they're going. They're awesome. I know. It's a different way. And yeah, it's hard to say what's best. But yeah, that's the thing. And every country is like, obviously, geographically different challenges, whatever. But yeah, I do have a lot of respect for New Zealand and the wonderful Prime Minister, she's pretty cool. changing tack slightly, in terms of there's a topic that I love to talk about two mums about mum guilt. And I'm not sure if that's a term that. I mean, I find the Australians know what I'm talking about. Is that something that you're familiar with over there in Canada, the mum guilt? Yeah. I definitely believe that it exists for sure. And, as I've explained the way, the changes we've made in our life, and the fact that I can work from home and pivot whenever needed to put my children first. That sort of like mitigates that a lot, right? I think I've experienced mom guilt in small doses, and then almost used it to help guide my decisions with my life. Because I want to avoid feeling like that, of course. And I'm lucky that I was able to find a way to avoid it a lot, right? Yeah. Yeah, the first time I think I felt it was honestly when I was pregnant. I was nesting and working on the house, and I fell off of a ladder when I was seven months pregnant, I think, yeah. I just remember sitting in the bathtub after feeling like horrible. I had a very hard time adjusting while being pregnant, to not being able to do certain things. Just because I really independent I pride myself on being a very strong woman that way, you know, yeah, ask for help. to a fault. Yeah, so that was the first time I felt really horrible. Like, that was a dumb decision to be doing that in the first place. And then, and then I'm trying to think, oh, so I had my first child. And then we did have a plan. Like, I didn't think I was going to continue doing the shift work. We sort of knew there was going to be an end eventually. But I did go back to work when my son was one year old, but I went back pregnant because they're only they're 19 months apart. Yep. So I went back wasn't going back to the road. I luckily got to go back to modify duties. So much safer, safer environment. A little more mundane and not the type of stuff I like to do. But yeah, so it was like an eight hour day instead of the 12 to 15 hour days that I would normally work. And that was really tough. I finding a nanny that I felt comfortable with, and then leaving my child with the nanny, even though I had put a lot of effort in had, I think I fired two before we settled on the one that we kept. Yeah. And yeah, it was really tough to leave him with her. But eventually, we got used to it. And I knew there was an end in sight. And then I went off the road again, you know, when I was, I can't remember how many weeks. But I just didn't want to go back to that. I didn't like that feeling. I personally didn't see the point of having kids if I couldn't be with them all the time. Right. So. But, yeah, I'm so fortunate that we could make it work that way. Right? It's not that way for everybody. So sometimes there, those opportunities don't exist. And my husband, I was able to really lean on him for a couple years to support us while I was not making any money as an artist. So I just started making more financial goals and wanting to relieve him a little bit. But we made it a good couple of years without too much pressure on it. Yeah, pretty hard to create meaningful art. If you're worried about the money. Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? You just, you'd be really constrained and like, I've got to, I've got to do this. So I can sell it. And I've got to, you know, you'd have all this pressure on yourself. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how I would do that. Yeah, it would be such a distraction. Right. Hmm. Let's see. Yeah, it's almost like it wouldn't feel like a creative space. It just feel like a job like you had you just have to. Yeah, produce stuff. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Yeah, no good. The other thing I love to chat to moms about is identity, like how you how you see yourself shifts in as you become a mother and from what you just mentioned, is that like, you're started when you were pregnant. You know, you're the challenge of having to adjust how you do things. So then when you actually had your children, did that change? Did the shift keep? Was the shift already made sort of thing, like we able then to adjust into motherhood? Because you've already sort of started to change. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. I think the shift so I physically, like I was always very athletic and doing kind of adventurous things like that, you know, like when I traveled a, I did the skydiving in the bungee, and the the only thing I I was too nervous to do is hang gliding and Brazil. myself with run off a cliff like that. So yeah, I've always been a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and I've had a lot of injuries, or my last major injury was while I was in paramedic College, and that scared me because it threatened my career. So I I I've shifted big time just being more careful with my body. And then yes, as as I was pregnant that was really difficult. Adjusting just asking for help with anything lifting wise was I left the hardware store falling once because I lifted a how many gallons is that? I think it's like 18 liters. Yeah, like the big thing of primer I lifted into into the cart and then felt obviously some major pain. And then I had to ask somebody to put that into my vehicle at the end. And and they were like, how did you get it in the car? So just stuff like that was so hard on me. But yeah, I'm so obviously I adjusted and it's okay, and I realized I needed to be careful. And just not taking as many risks right like you have kids to protect you Yeah, I find her a lot more careful like that. I'm always wanting to do the adventurous stuff and my husband. It makes him a little more nervous with kids around water and things like that. So we're good balance. Yeah, yeah. Yep. But I feel like I really worked on like figuring out who I was. Before kids, I was really lucky to do the traveling and several jobs, right. I really played around and tried to figure it out. And I thought I had figured it out with the paramedic thing and. And then, yeah, leaving that behind was a huge, felt like a sacrifice. Being a mother, it felt like I was giving up something that I had worked so hard for. And I didn't really see that coming. I did, but it didn't, you know, it didn't actually happen yet. So I was a little upset for sure. But, ya know, like, I think when things get tough like that, I think just thinking about what will be best for your kids always helps make the decision a little easier, like what direction to go. That's the way that we approach it. And I have never regretted making a decision based on that. Yeah, that's really well said, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You always have to think about yourself, too. But I'm personally happier when I put my kids first. So. And I'm getting better at balancing those things. But when they're really, really young, yeah, I was. All over it all, I was pretty crazy with all the homemade food and schedule and trying to mix it up enough that when we do mess with their schedule, they're not devastated. And, you know, trying to just do everything as responsibly as possible. Give him a sort of taste of life, I suppose that things don't always go to plan. And, you know, you can be adaptable. And mean, you can you can, you're allowed to get annoyed if things don't work out. But it's not like the end of the world. Like he can give back things. And that's really important. Sorry, sorry, I think kids in general have just proven how much they can handle and how resilient they are through this pandemic, right? It's just crazy. Yeah, depends on what country you're in, I think but we have done the online schooling I think four times. It has gotten easier, but which is amazing. That the last time it was kind of knew the routine and I wasn't as upset, right? Like I was really hard on myself with the online school. First, or Yeah, the first time it was very stressful. And I felt very down on myself. That's I guess that could be slotted in as mom guilt, right? Like not I eventually learned that I had to decide when we just had to call it quits for the day and to not allow myself to feel guilty that it wasn't working on the computer and we're just going outside and blowing it off because it was easier because they're in kindergarten at the time. So junior and senior kindergarten so like, I don't I didn't believe they should be on the computer anyway, but I also didn't want them to fall too far behind. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. More reasonable commitments. In my mind, I was like if we do it three days a week out of the five then I'm happy or if it's a bad day just just stopped right so yeah. hoping it's over, gosh, I know. In terms if you're making and I know your children, age wise, this might not apply but is it important for you, for them to see what you're doing and how you contribute? doing? Absolutely, it's important to me that they see what I'm doing and my process. Actually, just recently, I've had a lot of really awesome opportunities landed in my lap. And and I'm just trying to figure out how I'm going to do it all, because I think they're gonna stay in school. And I think we can plan for this right. So I've actually just turned my dining room wall into my new studio, so that I cannot get away from the project that I'm working on. Because when I'm walking by it constantly, I'm just subconsciously like working on it in my head. Right? Yeah. And I think it's really cool and exciting for them to go to school and come home and then see what it has changed. Yeah, it's, and it does inspire them. And I am seeing them try to copy things that I paint, it took, it took a while, like, you have to know that you have to be patient with some kids, like they're not going to just show interest in. And Charlie, my oldest showed so much resistance at first, so I just didn't push it. And then all of a sudden, in the last year, he is a big drawer, like an amazing drawer. And like his composition is on point. It's crazy. And he would draw his emotions through the panoramic. That's kind of home with these drawings. And with very, like, all different emotions on all of the people's faces, and it was a little bit sad. Of course. Yeah. His anxiety. But yeah, so his drawing skills have are just amazing. And then he has recently been trying to like copy certain pieces that he sees of mine. Yeah. And then they're both really giving their opinions on, on art. Like, yeah, on like, which paintings they like, and my little one van will always he's really into the water paintings and Hill. Yeah, he just offers his opinion on his favorites. And, and I have two really great friends I met online in the last year as well. And we're always sharing our work and critiquing each other and pushing each other along. Yeah. And sometimes, like, they'll see the little video clip and, and, you know, chime in on what they think of their work as well. It's really well, that's lovely. I love I love involving them in the process. Yeah. So even though we are just starting to do some collaborative, like paint, paint days and stuff and trying to do like Saturday mornings, there's a little online class that I'm trying to get all of us set up and I set them up exactly with all the things that I have. And I think that's really cool. But mostly, I think that they are part of my process. Not in the physical art making but like the inspiration side. Because reliving my childhood with my kids has been amazing. And definitely coming home and the nostalgia of like this place was sort of the initial inspiration and it's and yeah, now experiencing it alongside my kids and having all these adventures it's really special. So I'm trying to capture that in some of my future paintings. Yes, yeah, I really like to to give them that freedom in nature like as long as they're safe to explore and like I find they're just so confident because of it. You know? Yeah, it's really cool to see Yeah, absolutely. I love the way you describe though you really reliving your childhood three children. That's just Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, it reminds me when you say reminds me of my oh me when I when I describe that because I actually think I'm trying to provide them with sort of the same experience that that she provided with me. I purposely avoid driving anywhere I make them walk incredible distances. You know, we're like always picking flowers and, and just really getting into things like that. And that's that's what she did with me. And I remember sometimes finding it annoying, you know, when I was an older child care thing, stopping at the side of the road to pick flowers and stuff and she's taking like photos of my brother sister and I and I And now we appreciate it so much and, and all of those flowers and stuff remind me of her. So yeah, I'm just hoping that they remember that when they're an adult as well, right? I just, yeah. That's just beautiful. I'll go tingly now. Lovely. Similarly, like I had my, my Nana was real, it was very, very close to her. And she wasn't musical, but she was the one that bought us. My sister and I are first like organ like the double keyboard organ is fun to sort of encourage us to play and she passed away when I was 10. So and she's never met, obviously never met my children, but she inspires so much of my music and decisions that I make. And, you know, it's just incredible that someone who's not here has just informed our lives so much. It's just lovely. And yeah, it's the people that are really present with you. Not just going through the motions there. They put in sort of the hard work and, and, and the tough love. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. You say that. I interviewed a lady from she's Hungarian. But she now she lives in Austria. And it's, this is really funny. I have these runs of people that I talk about the same things with like, it goes through phases. And so the last thing I spoke to, and you have talked about the same thing about a significant grandmother, who had such an impact on them, and the same thing that that tough love like this, this grandma would be like, you're not playing that right. Like she's a flute played, played again. Not like that, play it again, play it again. And at the time, she's like, Oh, come on, like this is, you know, you felt like she was she was punishing her. But she's like, now I understand why she was doing it. And it's made me who I am and all this sort of stuff. And yeah, she passed away early as well. So all these people that is mighty Yeah. You talked about your watercolor that you you sort of adventuring into and including your children in your work. What sort of other thoughts have you got about the future for your art practice? Was it sort of hinting? Yeah, I have a lot of really exciting projects that I can't even really, they're not, you know, developed enough that I can talk about them yet. Yes, you're sort of man, it's only February. And the year is planned. Well for commissions, and it's just amazing. But there is one really big exciting thing that I'm starting, that I haven't talked about yet, but I do feel ready. And it is about everything in my life. It's just all making sense and coming together. And I guess I've always been waiting for the right idea like business, I always consider different business ideas. And so yeah, the last two years, we did a lot of the adventure, boating, checking out all these islands that I didn't even know existed. It's just crazy that it was like a 20 minute boat ride away and I had never discovered that. And we ended up purchasing a new boat in November. That would be suitable for this idea that I have. I'm going to start what's going to be called compete with me excursions. And I'm going to invite small groups of artists to go out with me on the boat, and I'm going to take them to paint plein air, meaning outdoor painting I'm just because a lot of people that live in this area actually don't have access to the water and the islands, and it's right there. But they've either never been on a boat or never really been on a tour in the area. Because there aren't a lot of there's just no businesses that enable that. Like there was one cruise boat from Midland that takes you on a couple hour cruise or whatever. But yeah, so this is going to be more of a, like a private tour, and we're going to select a destination based on the weather just like I always do, we really have to pay attention to weather. Yeah, because it can, if there's any chance of a major storm, I don't want to risk it. Even though I, I enjoy it. But yeah, so I have to upgrade my certification to be able to take this boats gonna be able to take 10 people. But for now, I'll be limited to a group of six people, which will be really nice. Yeah, I'm just trying to get the business end of all of that organized so that I can start advertising and start booking some dates. Trying to involve that in my my summer schedule with my, you know, my husband's schedule, the kids being home, all of that stuff. But I what I wanted is just to be on the water more, as much as possible, because for many years, I worked for my dad doing marine contracting. So like a lot of barging and doing the building of those cottages on these Rock Islands. And I just loved working on the water, you know, boating to work. And then it was very physical work. But it was amazing to be outside all day on the water. And then when you're on the water every day like that, like you experience, the different weather and kind of like magical things in nature, the wildlife that you see, sometimes it's just amazing. And you don't, you don't get as many opportunities like that if you're not consistently out there. So I feel like it's going to really support my own art practice. Yeah, I'm gonna get to do my little daily painting, even if I'm trying to instruct others and not really doing my own work. I'm just out there and fired. i It's like my favorite place to be. So I'm trying to position myself there. You know, while supporting myself financially, it'll support. it'll inspire my work, I'm sure. And we need a little more like community with the there's a lot of artists in the area. But it's a small town. Yep. You know, and so these kinds of things are needed. And I did one test run with a group of friends. Yeah. And it just, it was amazing. And like, just listening to everyone the ideas that were flowing and the chatter it was a group of women and they were just loving it right. It was very cool. And I've actually seen sort of the inspiration from that day in a in most of them like a lot of them started these new projects and stuff and I think I think a day like that can just give somebody an extra nudge something new so yeah, just and then my, my paramedic background makes me feel confident to like take care of people. Yeah, in you know, a wild terrain. There's going I actually did a photo shoot on one of the islands I'm going to use and we pulled up with the photographer and there was a bear on the island to eating berries. And I was like are you serious? The time is right we need to do this photo shoot and there was a bear there and we just sort of paused for a couple of minutes and I checked with sorry there's major stomping upstairs Yeah, I just checked in with my friend and the photographer like are you guys still into this because I definitely was and the bear took off to the other end of the island is very small island and they were they were game and we went on the island we we obviously didn't go to the other end where the bear went. But we still did it because I don't know I know there's no for sure but there you could just tell we weren't bothering the bear. The bear didn't want anything to do with us. Yeah, it just eaten some berries. He was full. We didn't need to eat some kind of crazy so yeah, I would never, I, you know, if I see the group, I'm not going to go on the island. But personally, I take some more risks I think than other people would be willing to take. Just when I have those kinds of experiences, I feel I feel like it's like, a good omen or it's like good luck. It's like a sign from the universe. Right? So Oh, yeah. And it really made it memorable. Yeah. You couldn't like try and position the bear in the background? So a couple of shots of it, I'll definitely post them at some point. Oh, that's so cool. I love that. It was neat. Excited to start that, a lot of organization, obviously, but yeah, like, you know, paperwork, kind of, yeah. booking system, all of those things, but I'm just going to try and take it easy for the first year and, and just see the interest and stuff. I'm feel very confident about it, because there aren't many things available like this here. But yeah. And then, and then I've offered to be like a volunteer steward to keep an eye on some of these islands for conservation purposes. And oh, cool. Because they get a lot of people to just do that people that are cottagers to keep an eye on a particular island. And yeah, make sure people aren't leaving garbage behind and things like that. And, and it can extend into a major educational opportunity. Yeah, just to educate people how to enjoy it, but like in a zero footprint way. And yeah, be respectful of the Yeah, because yeah, that's the thing you said, there's like 3000 islands, like there'd be so many where no one would be able to actually, like people can't be everywhere. So that's a great thing to do. Yeah, so I just feel like tourism is going to become more of a thing up here. We're seeing some major booming with housing and stuff like that, right, as there is everywhere. But I yeah, I feel good about doing it in a responsible way. And I have a ton of experience here. And I just, I want people to respect it the same way that we do. We're out there all the time. But yeah. I would probably, you know, report to whoever is whoever owns the island or is responsible for the wildlife conservation. Like if we ever noticed an issue or something like that. So yeah, that's wonderful. And it's like you're you're you're passing on like you've got such a connection such a love the area and you're sort of ensuring that it's cared for and looked after for for the next generations. You know, yeah, it's, it's super important, right? Because I have been in those places in the world that the water is just almost and swimmable, it's so polluted. The microplastics in our lakes are actually are at a very high level. If you're paying attention to that kind of stuff, yeah, it's, it's already really bad. So hopefully, we can find a way to reverse some of that stuff. When you're talking about the wildlife before? What sort of other animals do you get up there? Yeah, so it's super unique here because of all of the rocks like the landscape and all of the islands. So there are I think there's a lot of I don't know enough about birds, but there are a lot of unique birds. There's a lot of marshland as well. And then we have very unique reptile aisles and master set a Massasauga rattler snake that is poisonous. So, like I grew up watching where you're walking for snakes just like in Australia. Oh, yeah, well, either that one. Yeah. So that's just normal to us it Yeah, it's hard for someone to get used to if that if they haven't grown up that way. But that's just part of it and you learn about them and they're not. They're not out like looking for you. They're very frightened of humans have. Absolutely yes. It's just something to be really careful of. And I think if you're educated on like, how to coexist with wildlife, then that's, that's the best way to be the rattlesnakes. Something super interesting is they actually protect the blueberry bushes. Oh, yeah. From being over picked and stuff. Like a lot of people won't go to the areas where there are all the wild blueberries because there are so many rattlesnakes there. I think originally it was to protect the berries from being over eaten by animals. But yeah, yeah. So um, but there are so many other types of snakes as well. Just that that is our only poisonous snake. Lots of birds of prey. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, you don't want to mess with an angry owl or something. Right. end We have pretty bad mosquitoes and things like that. But But yeah, it's it's pretty beautiful. I love very into nature. I that's what I focused on when I was a kid. Yeah. Sounds wonderful. I have a lot of fun with the kids with that stuff. We raised butterflies last summer. Yeah, right. Yeah, just stuff like that. So gosh, you're making me jealous. I want to go then. You'll have to come visit. I honestly have been inviting people to come visit my whole life. Right. And I have hosted a couple of friends like I drove to Toronto and, and brought them up for the day and took them on a boat ride just to show them. And I just Yeah, I love that. I'm actually going to start a business like this. And can invite especially I've made a lot of artists friends. I'm a part of a few communities online now. Yeah, took me a while I was too shy to like officially join any of them for many years. And then I felt ready and it's been amazing. Yeah, the connections I've made and I know some of them will come visit eventually. Paint together. Oh, that's awesome. Geez. I love that. Yeah, that's that's wonderful I was gonna ask you whereabouts Did you like do a big lap of Australia? Like where did you go to when you're over here? I started in Melbourne. I didn't I didn't go to where you live yet, but I Yeah, Melbourne. I went all the way up the coast, the East Coast. I was really lucky when I started. I stayed for two weeks with a friend. So we have friends here. She's Australian. He's Canadian. They ended up living here. And they are the ones that pushed me when I was considering it. I think I was thinking maybe three weeks. No. You need to go at least for three months. Yeah. It's turned into I think I booked an open ended ticket. Right. And it lasted eight months. Yeah. All the way up the East Coast. I did Fraser Island, you know through Whitsundays. I went all the way up to Cape Tribulation. Yeah. I never did the like the interior. Yeah, I didn't get to do that trip. But I flew over to Darwin, just there was just a layover. I didn't actually spend much time there. Although I really wish I could have and then I even did some of the West Coast. I stayed in Perth for a little while. And then I did more of a an organised tour of the West Coast, southwest coast. And in between there I also went to New Zealand and Southeast Asia and I did tomato planting. Do you know where Boeing is? Boeing? Which was typesetting? Um, it is. I'm trying to think if it's north of New South, I think it's near North. Oh boy. It's near Airlie Beach. Oh, yeah, yeah, Queensland. Yeah. It's where the film Australia was filmed. Yeah, right. Yeah. Here and they were looking for extras. Ah, yeah. And I it was, oh boy. It was a, I guess a bit of a risky situation. Like, somebody asked me if I'd ever Oh no, the guy that picked me up for the farm. asked me if I had ever seen Wolf Creek. Oh, God. That's a great that's a great stuff. Uh, he ended up being Canadian, which was great. Oh, and they had bought this hostile to ours. inland. I'm trying to think of Bowen was. I think Bowens coastal. Right. And then, yeah, so yeah, it is. It's right on the coast. Yeah. So two hours into the Outback, Bowen, and I worked on a tomato farm for five weeks. And it was called the bogey river Busch house. And such an amazing group of people that I met there. together first, most people were very broke. I spent every night at the bonfire on the like, dry riverbed. It was amazing. And I'm sure I will connect with some of those people. Eventually. They're all over the world. But yeah, it was a really cool experience. And we were all dreaming of going to Thailand because it was cheaper and, like, blew up into this massive trip. But yeah, that was one of the coolest experiences. And I got to see, like a true Aboriginal ceremony as well. Like, I didn't pay for it. We had a barbecue and oh, man, it was really amazing. Oh, that's so cool. You've seen more of Australia than what I have. I I haven't traveled enough of Canada, to be honest. So yeah. It's funny how that happens. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was the best place to start. Like traveling alone. It was it was awesome. Yeah. Did you sort of feel comfortable because we all spoke English. You know, English is our language. And we're in a court. We're a Commonwealth country. So you know, yeah. sort of feels really familiar. Pretty easy. That way, you know, not overly dangerous. Yeah. And you use the snake, so that's okay. Yeah. And I Yeah, exactly. If the watch for the spiders on the farms especially. Yes, that stuff didn't freak me out. Maybe because of where I'm from. Yeah. But oh, it was so beautiful. And I met the best people. And I was very lucky to have I don't know if they finished explaining that I stayed with the friend for two weeks initially, just outside of Melbourne. And then I just remember being ready to go on my own and the city and stayed in a hostel for the first time and, and I very quickly met a friend from Ottawa, Canadian. And he ended up being my travel partner through Thailand and stuff too. So yeah, I just made incredible friends. I was really lucky. I had a great time. And I don't know it's always timing, right? Oh, yeah. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Has my cat. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thanks again. It's been great. Yeah, I had so much fun. And thanks, sir. I'm just glad you found me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Samantha Redfern British expat mixed media visual artist S2 Ep30 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Samantha Redfern is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and 3 children. Incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti, Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colour, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. Samantha studied fine art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolours, spray painting, and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging, on swimwear and she sells and exhibits her artwork all around the world. Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in lockdown, patriarchy in art and the economics of a working artist, We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. **This episode contains discussions around low mood + miscarriage*** Connect with Samantha on instagram - https://www.instagram.com/samantharedfern.fineart/ and her website - https://samantharedfern.com/ Connect with the podcast https://www.instagram.com/art_ of_ being_ a_ mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on today's episode is Samantha red fan. Samantha is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and three children incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti. Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colors, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. Samantha studied Fine Art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolors, spray painting and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging on swimwear, and she sells it exhibits her artwork all around the world. Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in locked down the patriarchy in art, and the economics of a working artist. We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. I hope you enjoy. This episode contains discussions around low mood and miscarriage. Welcome to the podcast, Samantha. It's so lovely to meet you today. Thank you, thank you so much for inviting me on. How did you end up in Singapore? So we so me and my husband we met at university, so I did a fine art degree. And he did maths. So you know, leads make sense? are really bad maps. What do you do? I do maps? Oh, it's perfect pairing. So yeah, we've been together since we were 18. We've been together for a really long time, had three kids. But the third one we had out here. So we I don't know. I think we were just stuck in this. This routine, like, particularly me because my husband was working in London, he only saw the kids on weekends. I was just in this, this routine of just housework, like housework and childcare. And it left me no room to even do anything. Like there was no one to look after the kids. So even in the evening, I couldn't go out anywhere or do even do like a Zumba class or something like that, because I couldn't leave the kids husband wasn't till about you know 1010 at night so really, really long days. Didn't have Netflix or anything like that. So you just end up surfing video chat, just bored. I was just really really bored and frustrated because I felt like I loved to keep part playing with the kids but actually lost who I was or any kind of ambition or motivation to seem to be non stop washing, you know folding clothes. Like all that kind of thing. Which if you are someone who loves homemaking, then yeah, sure. That's that's that's great. But for me, I never loved housework. never loved that. Yeah, you know what was it like for you as a kid? I guess not damn I've always been a massive animal lovers always had a lot of pets and have dogs and you know, love being out walking with them taking the kids for days out. But then this opportunity came along. My husband was offered a potential role overseas and it never happened. And at first I said No, good. No, I'm not moving. I'm not moving. Like what? Like, and then I just thought Why Why am I adamantly saying? No, like if opportunities come along, like, should we have that knee jerk reaction to just deny it and that I stopped thinking I thought wouldn't that be an you know, an experience or an adventure or something that opens up loads of possibility? He's we lived in a small village and Dave Days were quite similar. And then weekends was like, where do we go local garden center? b&q which is homeware store, you know, mowing the grass? I thought, why not? So we, yeah, we found an opportunity. And we moved over here, the dogs and the kids and just uprooted. And it was just the best decision. It was honestly the best decision. Yeah, wow. That's it's daunting, but exciting. You know, like, it's, you don't know what it's gonna be like when you get there. But you just go on for it. Yeah, I honestly, I just thought, I don't know, like, I will hate it, maybe will hate it. And I told everybody, we'll be back, we'll be back into the years, two years, we'll be back, we're just doing this for a little bit. And then it's six years now. You probably can't see yourself going back, probably no lifestyle who's so different, like, you know, I can run my business, I can see friends, I can do this stuff I can, if we moved back, everyone else's life would kind of be the same. The mind would change, if that's the thing in mind that would be negatively impacted the most. And I don't want to give that up. But I've been working for my business. So hard, put so much into it. And if I had to go back, and then not have time for again, and not, I just I just couldn't get couldn't literally kill part of myself off because I would desperately even feel like, yeah, fight this period of my life. And I don't want I don't want to, and everybody's so happy here. The kids are happy. And husbands super happy here. And it is hard because with COVID We've been separated. So never in a million years that I wouldn't see my parents for two years. Yeah, but life. Life happens. And it's been really tough. But it's still the right decision. A lot of expats move back home because of this because it couldn't be separated. But from a family perspective, we feel like it's the best thing to be to be out here and just hoping this goes away. Please go away Yes, I tell tell me all about your art. I know I've looked at it. I've looked at it on you online, and it's so bright and vibrant. And, and what you said, just through this conversation about you just want people to feel good and make people feel happy. And yeah, tell us all about it. I actually didn't start off by doing kind of like bright happy artwork. You know, it just kind of evolved. And I realized when we moved to Singapore, and like, there seems to be a gap in the market for abstract art for the older white walls, because most people here you're renting. This is expatriates. Or like you know, not to say most people I'm sure lots of locals but for expats and things most people are renting out here and and you get the bog standard white walls, you know, everything is white. And then people have bought stuff from home or they've left from home ash. So actually, I want something for my wars. Like you know, and I don't want something mass produced and when we're not in a position where we can just go and buy something that's like, you know, 30k or whatever. So I was like, Maybe I should do something. It's been such a while since I actually tried to paint because I'd been doing photography and I've been doing pastoral pastoral drawings and watercolors for you know, just people or myself or like my kids or pets or whatever. But I'm actually really got some paints out since university or other than getting a finger painting with the kids but in that kind of more like guess Okay, let's let's make something Yeah. And first it was like, What do I paint you know when people like can't go out and and go what Okay, so I just thought what, what do I see? And then I I walk a lot and you know, I was going out I've taken all my photos of all the tropical plants and things like that, of course color inspiration. So I was doing maybe plants and flowers, and then it evolved into my city scape series which is the combination of that Uh, the architecture here surrounded by this kind of lush tropical rainforest, the foliage. And then it evolved more into the abstract expressionists pieces with the graffiti style and the colors. So it's very much evolution, but everything kind of spins back, you know, to the beginning with the flowers and the nature and the shapes. So a lot of the shapes I use in my work, and they represent things like they still represent the buildings like a you squares a lot, which represents like humanity and a lot of ways. I've started incorporating crowns and things that was quite a recent thing. I did a breast cancer painting. It's called yas queen, and it was pink. And it's like, it's because it had boobs in their crowns in that and it's like a real like, empowering like piece. And I liked that. And that's how painting makes me feel so empowered. It's like, makes you stand out from the crowd. Like you're not just anybody. You're an artist and you're expressing yourself and that does make me feel confident. I like the reaction. You know, when people said what do you do? And you're like, Ah, I'm an artist. And I love that it makes me feel really really empowered. So the Crown's come in as that kind of symbol of like, Yeah, I'm, I'm doing my thing and I feel positive. Yeah, so that's really cool. I love that so you talked about photography in your past was have you always done a bit of art throughout your whole life? Yeah, literally, I did. From the my one of my earliest memories of preschool is one of my teacher saying, Oh, well done smells. Really, you know, you've done a good job on this. And I think, you know what, when you have positive affirmation from teachers is so important. Not all teachers are good. And not all teachers are encouraging. But when you have that it makes such a difference for a child. I've been lucky. I've had some teachers that totally dismissed me as nothing, you know, like I wasn't sporty. So the PE teachers and things they were like I always liked English. So my English teachers were always very good with me, and I like creative writing or write poems and little kids stories and things that Lance anything created for me. Yep, not sporty, crap at maths, like terrible maths, I think because it's so it's either right or it's wrong. And I don't like that. I like things that are open for interpretation. And I think with artworks, people see different things evokes different emotions in people, whereas Yes, some I'm sure it does, because for some people who love math, they get very excited about equations. But for me, like, No, I don't have a massive brain. Just honestly awful. And then I did it for my GCSE. So I did art design. And then I went on to college. And I did basically a double A level in art and design, which is great, because basically spent most of the time doing art. I did English as well. So I did a level English and I did this double. A level. I loved it, because I think this is what made my practice kind of what it is now because I'm really experimental. I like to try different things. So people were like, Okay, you're doing this now, or you're done this, but for me, that's what should be. It shouldn't be like, Oh, I've nailed something, someone's bought it. I'll just do 1000 of these until I die. It's more. Okay, what else can we do? And I had this teacher called Yuna, and she was always like grass. Nice. Happens If you stick this on it, you know? And that was her attitude. It's like yes, that's a nice painting. What can we do to really make it not just a nice painting but as something, you know, elevated somehow. And that's exactly how I've approached my my work and I started doing the mixed media staff and I love it now. I find it really hard not to stick stuff on my work when I'm painting through this across so spray paint Tanner just just cover it in it. You know, I think when you're not scared of ruining a piece, it enables you to really kind of like, let let go and I think that society can be so so rigid and we're doing our same routine means and for me, it's like this, this big release of energy and everything is just getting a canvas, big canvas, like working big and then just going to town on it, you know, it's so releasing, and anybody can do it. Anybody can do, it doesn't have to be something that's gonna go and hang in the Tate Modern or whatever. It's just part of tapping into yourself and that primitive urge that so many of us have, like with singing or music or dancing, or, you know, whatever, we have this urge to express ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. So you've mentioned just in passing just a little bit about your kids and their ages. Can you tell us a bit more about about your kids? Yeah, so I've got a 12 year old daughter, and yeah, I was 20. I was 26, when I had her. So that's actually like, quite young by today's standards. I didn't, I didn't feel overly young. And in fact, I'm glad I had event because I had a kid later as well. So I've got a four year old. And, wow, your bodies are so much more tired, so much more time in your 30s then it is in your 20s Now, I don't think everybody has to like make decisions based on you know, where they are in their life and like, you know, the situations and circumstances. And for us, we got married quite young. So we were married at 24 I think we just kind of thought, shall we, you know, as so many people do, when you think about having a family kind of tends to be a bit you know, can be a bit of a like a showy, and, you know, worked out everything you don't expect it not to though, with your first you don't expect it you don't have any decent day you don't know any different you don't know about troubles with conception or miscarriages or things like that. You just expect you're pregnant. And it'll go it'll be fine. It's quite a nice easy breezy pregnancy. But with with her like I was working so I had a sales job. And I wanted to make a lot of money so that I could have comfortable maternity leave. So I basically had loads of orders coming in and coming through get the Commission's that in my head, I was like if I go for coffee and a cake or like, you know, want to treat myself to something that's all on I'm paid for it. So I'm not going to be like a financial burden by not, you know, not working and then costing extra. Yeah. But then I wanted to go back and I tried to get that but our company was bought out by someone else. And then my job wasn't there anymore. And they said you just keep applying, like through the portal. And so I was applying for jobs. I mean, I probably shouldn't have to apply for finance director, you know, didn't really have that that credentials, but the salary looks really attractive. It's like sure, I'll go back to 90k. But I tried anyway, I did. I did try. And then we got pregnant with my middle child, my son. So there's literally one month off three years between them. And yeah, I had a miscarriage in between two, I think two in between. You know, so I know then when you have that, that other pregnancies you learn that it's not always plain sailing, and it's not always, you know, given that you just get pregnant and then just have babies. But yeah, so having having taken this when I had a call from a company, it's like coming back to work. I was like, Well, you know, I'm kind of pregnant and they're gonna have another baby, baby. And then with with him, I did the maths of what I would go back to salary wise, what it would cost me to commute to work what it would cost me to have lunch or coffees or get binding work. rope, you know, and then car petrol maintenance childcare. Yeah, I would have made literally like a couple of grand like once you subtract it or taking home that 2000 pounds. That looks so good. You know, that's not like a month. Yeah. I just don't, actually we're okay. Without my salary. We've managed, you know, we've managed voluntary redundancy, which helped and, and then, so we're okay, we just keep living the way we're living. And then I stay at home with the kids and my husband, you know, he was working long hours. And of course, he would have encouraged me to go back to work, or he would have supported me like, whatever, it was very much my decision. But he did like that I'm there. For the day taking photos, I'm there firsthand with the kids, I can tell him, you know, the little stories or showing the little video clips of what the kids did during the day, rather than coming back, you know, knackered in the evening, and then just hearing it from the childcare. So we were very privileged and very fortunate that could have done that. But everything is positive always has a negative because of course, I stepped away from the corporate world. So I could been climbing and carried on climbing the ladder. Do you take that sacrifice in a lot of ways to spend time with the kids? And then also, remember it you know, it did benefit them hugely. If they don't remember those years, then you get those comments, but daddy works really hard, you know, and that was kind of really annoying. Yeah. You just you just do this. I mean, you just, you know, get the Hoover out. And it's like, okay, okay, you know, you get the credit. You don't get the credit and you feel like you should, you should be like I'm doing everything you know, and I'm not getting paid. I'm like free. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I actually had my I was putting away some washing the other night, my eldest? No, my little one, I've got a I've got a 13 year old and a six year old. My little one says, Mum, why are you always the one that does the washing? And I said, that's a very good question. Digby, why is that? And he goes, cuz, cuz you just have time. And I said, Well, maybe I don't have time. Maybe this is something I have to fit in amongst everything else I'm doing. So why should I be the one that and it got me thinking. And I thought, this is the first time in all these years anyone's actually said that, you know, like, I had this conversation with a, a mum through this podcast. And she said, I don't remember having the conversation with my husband, when I decided I would do everything with the children said, it's just a thing that that society expects, you know, it was like, I'm expected to give up my job. I'm expected to give up my art, my body, my life, you know? And it's like, well, you wanted kids. So there you go. Like, it's just this, this thing that happens to us. And there's what besides? society isn't very sympathetic. I see this when I read comments. I never read comments, don't read comments. It's like a horrible rabbit hole where you just think oh, my God. Yeah. The age old debate about parent child spaces. Yeah. Can I ask them in Australia, right. So I didn't realize the importance until I had kids. And you realize that actually, and even being pregnant as well, because it was a situation I couldn't get into my car. Because somebody parked and I had this massive bump, I couldn't actually get into my car. But then with kids getting them out, but then you understand that you need to open your doors wider to be able to get car seats in and out and strap your kids you need to get right in there struggling and then people like you asked you to have kids. It's not our fault if you shouldn't get special treatment. And it's like, oh my god, do you not understand how society carries on? So what if we all just went on strike? Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah. Then what? Then society collapses? Yeah, the, you know, no one said to pay, who pays people's pensions? We're doing this a good job, we're doing a service. And if we do a good job raising our kids, those better it all in and raise these nice people to nice people that are going to society. And that that isn't just done to me, and it's not like, well, then I've had you, I can just leave you alone. And then you'll grow up to be an outstanding member of society. It takes a huge amount of work. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing of that. Yeah. Someone else said said the words that, that people forget that we are literally raising the next generation like we are. We are, whatever we do, and how we do it affects how society is going to be, you know, 2030 years down the track. You know, so what we do has so much value, but because it's not a monetary and monetized thing, that value just disappears or dissipates. It's just not valued. I know I don't I don't I'll be back on tick tock This is an interesting topic, this, the last three mums that I've spoken to have, we've all gotten to this, this topic about the way that the mums have been shafted, basically through through COVID. It's yeah, we're the first ones to go and the least appreciated, but, you know, doing the the really hard emotional work, but, you know, that's just what you got to do. Society just expects that and one of the mums said, because she was selling her artwork, it made her and her husband as wealth feel like it was a legitimate job. She said, if I was just doing my art, for me, just as a, you know, something fun, or something I enjoy to do, it wouldn't have been important enough to keep doing, you know, so it's also that monetary value that we have to play some things important. Yeah, that's what he does. Because it says that you're, you know, if you're a big roller, then you're successful. And it doesn't eat. I mean, success is totally subjective, anyway, because Am I successful? Only if I earn crazy amounts of money, like, you know, and these artists are doing credibly? Well, not definitely not the, the the rule, they're the exception to the rule and female artists to get to that point. It's pretty much impossible, because society still banks on the male artists, so can we go to auction? It's always the male artists, these their works are going off for billions. You know, women tend to get that that look in. And until society changes if it ever changes. Because every time we go in the right direction, something comes along and it sets us back. Yeah, thank you. With COVID Set women back climate change the people, they said the people that suffer, suffer the most with that will be women so so we keep we keep bouncing back. And we try and we don't we don't give up. Keep keep going. And but yeah, it's I don't know what your success I feel successful. Because I'm doing something that I that I enjoy, I want to make money from it. And I need to really, because otherwise, how am I going to pay for my materials or whatever. That's what we do is this kind of unpaid work. Because when you're self employed, everything that you're doing your your Instagram, and then people who will say, Oh, you're just messing around on Instagram, it's like, I'm actually not like, I'm a marketing, you know, professional. You know, it and to be that person I looked into, like, how much it costs to get someone involved in all that kind of stuff. It's expensive. So doing all this stuff myself to cut cut costs. And yeah, when people like somebody laughed, I said, I was expensive to be an artist and somebody laughed. I went, No, it really is. Yeah, and that's the mentality isn't it? That's how they that's what they think it's like, what what you're just you're just fluffing around, doing whatever. Yeah. That people have in their minds. Yeah. And they don't realize when they see something sell and they go whoa, money bags, and like you don't realize how many cameras I've bought, how much paint I've bought, you know, my studio I rent it's like these these things that I'm putting in and I still not I'm still not making huge profits or no I'm keeping enough and making enough so that I can my business going. Like if for whatever reason, I suddenly had to be the main breadwinner. I couldn't do this full time you know, I'm not making enough that I can be like sure guys are pay the rent our payment, you know, our buy the food shopping. Honestly, I couldn't I want to get points and that's what I'm working towards. So that's my goal. Like, okay, I can keep my business going now. But I want to get to the point and I think I'm entitled to get to the point of doing this that I can be like I'll pay the bills you know, I'll put food on the table like yeah, you know yeah won't be good on Yeah. I don't think it's like unrealistic or like, you know, unjust a one. Be saying and kind of have that motivation to try you know, try to do it. Yeah, absolutely not good for you Yeah, I think everyone's really had enough of this pandemic. Oh, God, just so depressed. I think it stems my work through through the pieces. Like I then kind of went through this rebellion, because it's so like, you know, unhappy like, I'm not really I'm not a really upbeat person all the time. Like, I'm a Pisces, so I am like, one minute I'm like, I love everybody. I've already is amazing. And next is just like, oh my god, yoga new Mommy, you know, is this changes like, I do get bouts of like feeling low and feeling down and things like that. But I'm, I'm, I'm an optimist. So my husband's like, the more pessimistic and I'm always like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Let's do it. But I do get down, not just constantly high on life. And I did find it really hard. Because so many of my plans were canceled as well. And I didn't want to feel down because I was like, How dare I, you know, people are really suffering. Yeah. And I kind of thought, actually, I am entitled to acknowledge that I feel down, like, singing from the rooftops. And like, you know, so Oh, woe is me. But like, just to allow myself to actually acknowledge I feel a bit a bit low and a bit disappointed. And I think disappointment is the hardest emotion to deal with. But as a kid as well, like kids, yeah, you're going to Disneyland all of a sudden, you're not going to do that. That is such a hard that's such a hard emotion and it doesn't get any easier as you're an adult. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And you tell yourself, you should deal with this. You're grown up, you know, but you still like things you just say actually disappointed. You flying to all these places, or these countries and doing these shows, and they're like, Wow, this is gonna launch me I'm gonna be there. And the same goes to me, who am I gonna meet different artists, galleries, different whatever. And it's like, knowing you're not going anywhere. You're staying in Singapore for two years. But I guess the The upside to that is no one else is going anywhere. So it's not exactly and I just channeled it or reversed it. And I went through Blue periods. I did people who followed them for a while remember, I just like non stop blue stuff. This has been locked down to begin with, as I blue blue, like depressed blue. And then I just like no, do you know what I can't if I'm not dealing with it? Color. And that's when like, I just believe she rebelled. And I made these like, obnoxiously cheerful, like pieces. It's a kind of like fingers up to like that kind of down feeling. I was like, No, I'm gonna surround myself with these joyful colors and joyful things. And we were in our house right in our house can't leave anywhere. It's had all these paintings all over the walls that hung everywhere. And it was so nice having that I realized people realize being at home, they should have more art. You know, when you're stuck. Actually having just some piece, it makes you feel cheerful and makes you feel good, honestly, does change your space. And if you wake up to that and see if it doesn't lift you as well, you feel like calm surrounded by something beautiful, something positive. And it has that effect on your mood instantly, instantly. Yeah, absolutely. It's like you've decided that the outside world's going to hell, but that's fine. Because in my space, everything's lovely food and I'm creating, you're making, you're making it what you want it to be control. I think a lot of people when you feel out of control, you want to harness some control, right. And this happens a lot of the time, there was a period of time where we were all just completely out of control. And I think when you can control some element of your life, it brings you some kind of relaxation, some kind of safety as well, so I can't control this. And particularly as we were we're a family of five and the rules were all like, you know groups of two, so you'd get out or you know, or one and I had a toddler so my youngest is four. So in the height of Dan, who's two years old, like so full of energy and take him to his little preschool will take Come to like, all these indoor playgrounds, you can run around and just burn off that energy. All of a sudden, he can't leave the house and it's like, wow, the odor to them all right, they were already into like gaming and that kind of thing. They could entertain themselves pretty much. Having having a toddler is like a whole new. Yeah. You want to go out you want to let them run out. And they're also worried about like them not getting any vitamin D or anything. Yeah, we've had a balcony we weren't even allowed outside. So this is how bad it was. And we don't have a garden because we're in a like a what they call here Cluster House, which is like multiple units with shared you know, shared pool shared shared gardens. So because you don't own it we weren't even allowed to go outside like no remaining your property no bounce no balcony. No you know anything so it was really tough. Oh, that's horrible. Well, we because we were in what they call a condo before and I'm so glad at least we moved to this house because now we're kind of more separated and then my husband could still work without everybody being in basically one room because how stressful is that? Because if you've got some need some new trying to do a job and then you've got shouting kids and then you're the one that can also I didn't want to because women really suffered during this because awesome their work if it what weren't paid enough, you know, you're not the breadwinner, your your job has to take that slip, you know, and this was what happens how we ever supposed to catch up if we can't do it, you know, who keeps in cold all yours is just a sideline, yours is a hobby, yours is, you know, doesn't in the big bucks was never going to bring the big bucks is it it's always a sideline exam. You never get the chance to know exactly, it's always that whole first sign of trouble. You've got to, you've got to look after the kids but my husband, he's, he's very, he's very good, strangely FC, or he's very good. You know, he, he doesn't ever try and dismiss my, my job what I do as a sideline or hobby. And, yeah, he's really supportive. And he's got a huge amount of belief in me. And I think that makes such a difference or in a partnership. And it works both ways. Because I've always supported him, you know, as well. So it goes it goes both ways. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman. You talked about doing your pastels and your watercolors and stuff. Were you doing that while the kids were little like we able to do any of this for when my daughter was born. And the first like year of life, I think for maybe my son, I didn't do anything. Honestly, I took photos always had like an SLR camera. And I just like to go out and do that. I took loads of pictures and kids and all that stuff. But I literally had no time. And I told me about your recurrent dream where we we had a house. And one day I just discovered this door. I opened the door. And it's this whole wing like of a house like this stuff that we didn't even know we had. And it's like, oh my god, wow, when did we get ballroom? This house, this house was so important. And you just like I had this dream so often. And I'm looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring and neglecting and it's there the whole time going. Come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like because this is I've done I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece. It was totally neglected. And then I took a picture of the kids and I thought just to make such a nice drawing makes it such a nice truck. And I just got pastels and I drew it. And what's really nice, like, it's really nice, I haven't done anything so long. That's really pretty. We framed it and, and then it's kind of just started me doing that. So I use my daughter all the time as like my muse and I did little drawings and then other people in the village was like, Oh, can you do my kids? Can you do my dog? And can you, you know, deal with this. And then that started the business in its early infancy. So that when I came to Singapore, I registered business care, because I was enjoying doing that it wasn't bringing in much money, because it's, it doesn't at that point. And I did it for again, businesses, friends, people, paying you to do the other kids, family, whatever. And that gave me some confidence. And also, yeah, like a little bit of extra income, like, you know, but it wasn't really ticking the boxes in terms of letting loose creatively, because when you're doing someone's kid, you can't suddenly be like, Oh, I'm gonna stick. Goodbye row on there. Doesn't look like my child. And so you it's very much formulated, you've got to grid it out, you've got to play it, it's got to look like the person you're drawing because that's the whole point of those kinds of paintings. Okay, but does it really identify? Like me as well? Just like, is it stand out? Is it recognizable? Because the next part of being an artist is, is developing a style and your style can change. It doesn't have to be this is my style. Now I'm good. I'm staying with this stuff ever. You look at the Masters look at the artists and history with their work isn't the same thing replicated? Like basically carbon copy for that wherever you've artists that do everything like installations. Her like your customer, right? So she's, she's got photo photo, she's got installations, she's got painting she's got, but you don't have to pay for your creativity. You can really, yeah, like circumnavigate the whole, the whole spectrum and, and just give things a go. I've done pottery. I've never done that. late, so I was like, Yes, I'm gonna sign up for a pottery course. Like, you know, why not? What things can you learn? You just learned different, different things about your, you know, your capability. I mean, I'm, I'm not going to do pottery going forward. I think at first I thought I was had this romanticized idea that it'd be super easy, like just throwing pots. And then I imagined painting them in these colors. And I just kind of thought, Yes, I'm going to do this, this is going to be my thing. And it's like, I didn't really shit I still carried on, because I'm a truck. And I've got some nice pieces around the house. But yeah, it's not. It's not for me, I find it to just like what painting gives me which is the freedom that desperately I don't like being restricted or following a formula, which is, you know, pottery and things like that. It's, it's an exact kind of science. And there's a, there's an exact kind of way to do it. And I've got a huge respect for them. But also, it just takes so long. Needed clay out, then you could, you know, you'd roll in spinning it and pull it and then you've got to wait for it to bisque and then you've got to glaze it and you've got to fire it. So takes weeks to get one piece you know, can roll out a massive canvas, like huge canvas, and just spend the day slapping paint on it and like, you know, building the app and in terms of maybe, I mean, I'm an instant gratification person to work on this that's it, I need to take my time. Rather than expect to come out at the end of the day with something workable, you know, that's very interesting. In practice a lot of yoga and one of the terms they they say, if you hate a particular pose, and that's the one you need to work on, because that's the one that's challenging you might not be physically but mentally so there you go. Yeah. Might be that might be your, your thing. Impatient as far as like, I've got no patience at all I hate queuing. Like, you know, I hate that kind of thing. I'm really, really patient like as a person. So yeah, but I've started doing yoga as well. Have I need it because I'm so I'm so uptight. I'm like the real kind of wound, tightly wound kind of person. And I've got issues with this because it causes me physical pain, like I clench my teeth, or Yeah, yeah. And just my neck pain is awful. I've been having physiotherapy for it for ages. And some days, it's so bad, it just gets me really, really down because it's horrible living in constant like constant pain. And then it puts me off going to the studio, because when I go to the studio, I spend a lot of time on like Cantonese, I do that and then when you're scaring in one position a lot of time as well. And then, you know, I ended up putting my neck more sometimes after a lengthy day, in this year, so I'm like, Okay, well, I've got yeah, I've got my mouth God, now we're running out of time, this and that. And now I'm like, Brad, I need to do yoga, I need to find that harmony, that relaxation and just learn to focus on doing that. And not constantly Oh, I better check Instagram, Oh, I better do this. I'm going to upload to this I'm gonna do that already should be painting or I should do this or I should do some exercise you just little you know, there's so many things. I can just sit in my head. I'm like, promotional guy. I love it. And I started doing outdoor yoga. Last year, I've had a number of health problems, which has stopped me from getting into into it, I want to and I think the motivations there. So just just life keeps getting in the way. But they do the outdoor class at the botanical gardens. And I'd say I love walking. So for me that is my exercise. I don't like the gym, I don't enjoy any of that. I like just walking, taking photographs, like just getting out in nature, quite often on my own, just just the solitary you know, stop, I'll have a coffee on my own like love it, I find that really, really relaxing. So I started doing this outdoor yoga class outside. And the rigor itself was fun, like it's nice. My favorite bit was last bit when they get you to lie. And maybe had these like ice cold flannels that you put maybe your face and you just lay there, like totally exposed because there's there's everything there like, you know, otters and monitors are watching over you. You're like you don't get attacked. And it just that was just the best moment like that because people don't find that cyclic, quiet, solace, just pure relaxation in our day to day lives. Really? We don't really Yeah, that's it my daughter is 12 and she's not allowed Instagram. And the reason I say that is because for me my my algorithm knows I'm only interested in art accounts. So my home my home page and my explorer page is like just basically ours. They do still sneak in some celebrities you know I've heard is that you know the Spider Man guy and stuff like that I'm showing an interest in in that but it seems to be really really pushing that I should be interested in Yeah, I'm sure there's like the big companies must pay to be able to get their stuff on that that Explore page because this stuff comes up about like to say I've because I'm I love Star Wars. So Adam Driver, like from the actor from Star Wars. Any movie that he then is in it comes up with the trailers of that and I'm like, like, I love Star Wars. I don't necessarily love this guy, but I like to tell but they're trying to like, you know, Lady Gaga or come up because he was in a movie with her. She's that's it, her and the guy from Star Wars. You're right, that he's all over my school page. I've got like three stars, but I don't mind because I do actually watch the hairstyle stuff. So I'm like, Yeah, fine, like I do. I do like his posts. I'm like, It's fine. I don't I'll watch them because I'm quite happy to have art and Harry Styles on my school page nine with my daughter when my daughter borrowed my phone. She started looking at this was like about a year ago. I think she was a kid these row, you know, row bucks, whatever. It's all very robust. Alright. And she was looking at some room examples or something. And then I looked at my Explore page, and then all of a sudden, it's full of women. We mean, you know, little clothes and things like this acid, this is the problem. Like, you've looked at that and it's gone. What does the person who's looking at this want to look at? Or if they don't wanna look at but what you know, and then it's such a unrealistic female body types and things like this, and I use it as a, as a way to have a discussion, you know, with her about these filters, because I'm guilty of doing it too, right? Yeah, not every like, not every post I put on my feed is, is 100% natural with no no lighting tweaks or something like that. But like, Come on, we live in a day and age and there's nothing wrong with trying to show your flattering, you know, more flashy stuff. Some of them are just want to say then there's nothing on there. There's no filter. It's just done straight from my thing. Because, yeah, I'm not trying to sell cosmetics or whatever. It's my artwork. Yeah. But then, hopefully, if I'm doing a real or something, then what? Yeah, I'm guilty. Yeah, that's the thing, too. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look the way that you want to present yourself, either. Like, I had some photos done recently, because I'm releasing a new album next year, or hopefully this year. And I got some photos done and, and the lady that did them is like a proper portrait photographer. So she's telling me like, put your chin out and drop it down, and then lean forward and all this. And I'm like, I know, I'm going to look, I'm going to look better, because my double chin is not going to come out. Like this is okay. Because this is I mean, it's a it's a technique, I suppose to make you look more appealing, I don't know. And I thought when I was doing it, I thought is this bad, but I'm not just standing like a normal person. And he said, we get shamed into doing this. This is the thing that you say you're guilty if and Badgett and I always if someone says, You look great, I'm the first one to say it's a filter, you know, and I think we've got to stop doing that. Because the the celebrities or whatever the Instagram influencers, they're not being forthcoming with that information. Yeah. And that's the thing, like, even the amount of airbrushing, like I didn't realize too, I don't know how long ago when, maybe 10 years ago when all this big thing come out about the airbrushing that we're using in magazines and all that I was just like, Ah, so they're not that perfect. Like, you know, you have this moment of you think that because you cuz I don't know, they there's these these people that exist in the world that are absolutely flawless, you know, but maybe, maybe they're pretty good, but no one's absolutely perfect. You know, when you zoom right into your pores like no one is that perfect. That's the thing with the models and things like that in your teen magazines and we didn't have internet when I was little we had all these teen magazines are just 17 all that kind of stuff right? Read that but they would airbrush all the girls have these flawless skin and now you're like 1415 with a breakout and you know with a Tash? And it's like, well, where's, you know, where are these people and I just an anomaly, but then you're looking around your friends at school and you're like, yeah. But I'm saying that too. Like when I had these photos time, the photographer asked me if she wanted, she said, Do you want me to airbrush out some of you? You know, yeah, it's close feed or whatever. And I was like, no, because that's me, you know, like, I don't know, I just felt like, okay, you can make me look more flattering. Physically, that's fine, but don't take away my character. You know, like, that's, you know, all these guys into my art and my creating, like, if I hadn't experienced life, I wouldn't have these lines to show it and I wouldn't have the story. I know it is. It is hard. And when you put your face on something, say like your music, it's a bit like a book cover. In a way, you know, somebody's gonna look at your album. And now the first thing they'll judge you on isn't by the contents because they can't see it. They can't hear it. You know, they don't know. They might not know your backstory There literally is like taking that first image of you and making that decision if they want to press play on the you know, on a thing or I don't know Do people CDs anymore? I don't know. I still get them printed. But yeah, I mean, this is the thing like that's, this is the photo, right? So that's it. That's what they see. From that they have to decide if they like my music or not. Yeah, likely they have bad luck like it though. I like that. It's really nice. It's really approachable. It's an approachable photo, you know? And if that I don't, I haven't listened to music, but Um, now I would get that it was more uplifting so you're not like a sole key like I don't know you might be but from that Yeah, I think it's like kind of more like uplifting rather than yeah depressing doom and gloom that's that's you look at you go you're like the Analyze of this and that's it think as a woman we are totally judged on more of our appearance and like you can't win because honestly, if you show too much flesh, you're told that you're selling out or you're doing this. If you're too conservative, then you frumpy and, and, you know, I had a negative I don't get trolled, like I might do after this. But I don't get out. You know. I think and I'm not controversial. I don't have like, I don't share strong opinions or strong views. I keep it like, no politics, no religion. No, you know, because it's not, that's not what my my painting is about. It's about making people happy rather than provoking or, you know, any kind of I got trolled. A while ago, the photo was new. And I live in Singapore, right? It's hot, it's sweaty. I live in shorts. And like needle, I have a little you know, singlet tops or little T shirts. Because it's boiling. It's like 33 degrees. And hardly anybody wears anything. It's just day to day. And the photo I was in, I was just wearing what I was wearing that day. So I haven't got changed or done anything special for it. Just what this is what I've been wearing. While I've been painting, I'll just sit in front of it and take picture. Somebody wrote, Wow, good job setting back women painters, 50 years. But the thing is, didn't realize their comment is setting. That is not me, because there's a word entitled to wear whatever I want. But also wearing Sports Shorts. You go to a fitness page, like are these women getting like, you know, they're wearing a sports bra? I wasn't wearing a sports bra. But if I was, you know, I'm allowed to. And I think a comment like that just shows where that person is in their mentality. Like this, they are in this in their being they are the ones holding it back because they continue to think like that, you know, they made a decision to see you like that because that's how they're feeling about it. You know, I was strange because it wasn't it wasn't a sexual but even if it was, but it wasn't. But you know, it's like still like, it's my prerogative. I mean, if a woman wants to show her body, it's like it's up. It's up to them. I'm not going to go through and the Internet, I'd be there for weeks. You know, just being negative comments on anybody who's scantily clad for for male, female, or transgender whatever, there's so much flesh on display on Instagram. But if you're looking for that, I wouldn't say Come to My Account changing tack just slightly I want to ask you about the concept of mum guilt. I mean, we call it mum guilt here. I don't know if you have the official hashtag mum guilt over there. But yeah, have you come across that sort of interview with your art like that taking that time for yourself? Do you have those feelings of I should I should be with the kids or that kind of stuff? Yeah, actually, when I started painting that property painting, I waited until the kids were in bed. It's like, you know, painting till like midnight. Because I was high choir. I don't want it to take away my time with the kids. So I was Yeah, I was doing it cramming in. So instead of time where I should have been probably relaxing. It was like now I've got to gotta create content. Keep going in on these things, it's quite good in a way because you know, you have to create content. So it pushes you to make that schedule and make sure you're showing up so it stops you kind of slipping away and think, Oh, I'm a bit busy at the moment. It's just taking some time finding some time because you don't even have to do anything massive or spectacular. Honestly, like I do. arted this year doing abstract faces, right and small with a three paper. And I'm just doing them as this busy extended visit this year, I got lots of stuff coming up and government wisdom teeth out this week I know I'm going to be, you know, I'm not going to be able to go into the studio and do massive pieces and things that I'm gonna have to take easy. So, I mean, my three paper and some paints here, I can find some time to do something. Small, and weed. Now the kids are older, and so they're all at school and stuff. So it don't feel the guilt. But when I was in traveling, this has nothing to do with guilt. Right? So he's kind of all but if I do this show, and I go, Well, I'm gonna be way I'm gonna be in a different country away from my kids. Whereas Yeah, if you're, if you're a man, that's your job, you just travel a lot. I'm not saying they don't also, you know, don't feel guilty, because it'll be a lot of men that travel and they don't want to, you know, they didn't want to, but you know, whatever to go wherever the money is, and whatever. But yeah, you do feel that, oh, I'm away from my kids, I'm gonna rush back and get back, you know, get back to the kids and, like, whatever. But what makes it all worth it, it will not be worth it. It's like how, when they're over it now. But when I first started when I started selling, they were so proud. And they're so excited. And they only tell the teachers on my mom's and our tears. There's a middle son's was asking me if I'm famous yet. Many YouTube subscribers, you know, people have an audience. I'm like, No, I don't have that. I'm not I'm not famous. You know, it's different, different measurements, but I like that now they have that. But now if I sell it, okay to my daughter, I'm still going to be like yeah, it's good. That's something you know, and, and inspiring debt to, to be more creative. And I think then growing up in a household that has a lot of art is a really nice, really nice way to grow up like books as well. It's shocking how many, how many houses don't have any books, we have loads of books and art, I think, super important. None of us are that musical. I wish we were I wish we were I never learned an instrument. I feel like probably not going to now. The ship has sailed. Kids do music at school. And apparently, my daughter's quite promising. Her teacher was saying that she's you know, she's just showing some, some promise and music. Because it would be nice if one of them did something musical, you know, just got the clarinet out or something that's like just careful what you wish for my son is learning the bagpipes. So yeah, at the moment, he doesn't have a bag at home, but he has the charter. So we'll be watching the television. And he will just walk down the passage and just stand there in the lounge. Like I'm putting on a show right now. And my husband, I'll just be like, Hi. But yeah, sort of saying careful what you wish for because you end up with that clarinet in your head at four o'clock. Who isn't gonna change things? We're not like, Wait, we're not really really super pushy parents either. Because my mom and dad are so laid back like so laid back. They never pushed us to do anything. Yeah, he's on with it. And I think it's quite good. Because I think self motivation is really important. And if you're having every aspect of your life and managed, you don't have that it's like oh, now it's guitar lessons. Now it's Chinese now. It's extra maps. It's like, yeah, you're not allowing yourself to ever have a moment of what shall I do with my life? Like what should i How should I entertain myself? There's always things that you think you should be doing, like you know, I joined Tik Tok and YouTube and then and Twitter and then there's just not enough minutes in the day to do them to just do them all. We just never do anything. Yeah, I basically I stick to I love eating grant, that's my favorite social medium. And I did, I looked at tick tock and I thought, Oh God, I could spend all day just looking at stuff on here and not do anything else. So you do, obviously, I stopped, I've stopped looking at it. Because the algorithms, they know what you kind of want to look at. And then if you look at a few videos, then it was just showing me non stop videos that were making me kind of angry. And it's like, Oh, this isn't this is what the problem was some social media is that it does that doesn't it? And it can make you kind of feel angry about something. And I'm like, I don't want to be watching this and feeling angry chick leaves, you tend to scroll just before you go to sleep. Yeah, and then filed up, you know about issues to do with women, because he knows it's like, it's like, oh, she's got some feminist, you know, feminist views. So give her like, non stop feminist stuff. And then I'm just getting really angry and like, you know, the damn The thing is like, with kids, like no one really prepares you either for what your support is like, and I really struggled. I'm somebody who really enjoys alone time, like, you know, very comfortable in my own time and my own space. And if I'm with people all the time, drives me just insane. I just need some time to just be away for people not talk. And like a very social antisocial person. But then all of a sudden, you've got something with you 24 hours a day. And, and you know, I've never had a baby, I remember them sending me home with her. And I was like, hey, what, you know, I've never had one. All right. Me, me. What happens, you know, needs medical attention. And is that feeling was like, well done. Good job. Off you go. Yes, your person to take home. It's so crazy. And you're going from being able to go to the loo and have a shower and a coffee or just whatever, go to Sainsbury's or you know, a supermarket and just browse the home, or items or whatever. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, my god, get in there now get go, go, go, go go grab the essentials, and cheese screen read off because she's suddenly decided she's starving. Then you've got to drop the trolley and then run off to find somewhere. It's like, your bow. I mean, it's just completely different. Just just just like that overnight. Yes, completely. Yep. It's like, Yeah, I had this feeling when I when I left hospital. I thought you saw that I can? Am I Am I okay, doing this? Like, do you don't want to like vet me to make sure it's okay that I can actually do this. Like, if you were adopting, you'd have to add it. So assumption that you'll know what to do. I'm in with this woman. I was because I was very. Yeah, I hadn't been around a lot of kids. When I had my first child. I didn't really know what I was mean, no one knows what they're doing. But I literally didn't know what to do. And I was barfing give gave the baby's first bath. And I was like, have like, how do I wash him? Like, what? Like, how hard do I press? Like, what do I do? And this nurses, just listen to your intuition. You'll know what to do. And I thought, no, but I actually don't know what to do. With you, they're meant to show you in the hospital was like, Oh, no. And there was this, oh, my God, this thing, this sign? Because like, I'm a very, like, I like to know, structure. And like, I'm not as bad now. But when I had when I had Alex, it was like, I wanted to know what was going to happen. Like, what might what to expect with this kid? Like, how's it going to work? How often do I feed him? How long is he going to be sleeping for? And this nurse said to me off every baby's different? And I thought, well, that's a great answer, isn't it? That tells me nothing. And then it's true. Is true, because some of them sleep. Some of them don't. Some of them get colleagues, some of them. It wasn't until I started to work, I work start to work in childcare when Alex went back to school. And I just went, Oh my gosh, now I understand that. She told me but at that time, I just wanted someone to tell me what to do. And of course, no one can tell you what to do. Because no one knows what your kid's gonna be like. I didn't read any of them books either. You know, I just I'm just like, Jenny, what? They don't want to be stressed out by schedule. I'm not somebody who's a brace schedule. I'm totally unscheduled, you know, into the point where it's like, I forget what my schedule is all the time. So I get phone calls. Aren't you supposed to be here now? I'm like shared So I didn't want to be worried about like, Fiji, which I'm Devon and then this time, and it wouldn't have worked with Isla anyway, because I pretty much gaffer taped her onto my chest all day, because that is just what where she wanted to be, and I just didn't do anything else. And my husband would take her so I could just get a break. Yeah, it's like, because as soon as she's on me, she was just routing routing routes all the time. Like, me, basically, is that like a giant passerby? Yeah. Like, it's like, can you have it for a bit and he was so good in the way that he would always as soon as he was there, we would take her and, and it always allowed me to get some rest. I mean, he couldn't do the night feeds. They just refuse. We tried. We tried. I tried, like, you know, the bottles and things just so I could. I was woken up anyway. And I'm somebody, I'm awake. It takes me a really, really long time to get to sleep. So I could then hear him struggling to try and get her to have it and I'm just not it's just not worth it actually, because it's not it's not getting anywhere. I'm not getting any more rest and it's just as as a mommy, you have that. It's a horrible trigger, isn't it? That when you feel hear your baby crying is a primitive, primordial like anxiety that you just triggers like now I can hear a newborn baby crying I'm like Oh, my God, my God. It's just really good. Set all your instincts like heightened alert. Yep, absolutely. And then the physical like your body starts to you start to leap because it's like, right, yeah. I happened in I was in target one time. Alex mom was looking after him when he was a baby. And I heard this baby cry two hours across next minute. My boobs when I'm just like, that's not even my kid. Crying in the shower, and it wasn't even then like you're right. It's like, no, no, no. You know, there's no no, but we have with with my kids. My husband wasn't there. Showering becomes a real luxury. And I remember being trying to shower like a lightning speed. Tape my middle son in a baby bouncer like literally facing me while I'm in the shower. And I'm trying to sing to him. And I'd be like, you know, keeping really happy. It's just like puce in the face. Just so angry to hear you out. So you can see me and obviously can see the boobs. outraged. But little things like that showering, saving yourself. Honestly, either yourself, like, just Adam, my husband would take island just so I could have my food. Yeah, this little things like that. You can't even eat shower, go to the loo like, it's just so relentless. And it's just not prepared for it. Nothing, nothing can prepay for it now. And that's the thing to even if people do try and prepare you for it, you just dismiss it because you get a heart. It can't be that they're not you know, because you've got no idea. wouldn't matter what anybody told you. I remember reading a book and it said about what to do if your baby's fussy or whatever. And I was like, I didn't need to read this, my baby's gonna be perfect. You know, like, just total blissful denial what's about to happen to me, You do kind of think to yourself why like, mostly, this one's gonna love it to none of mine slept No, they were over to just is, it just is what it is, is what it is. I mean, you hear, I've got friends who've got kids that were like five and didn't, you know, didn't sleep through. So you just got to be grateful with your, you know, but my middle, my middle son, he used to get colic and stuff. And that was really horrible. So I was trying to feed him that, you know, the great water and in for coal and all that stuff. Because the worst thing was, even when he was asleep, he would make these noises. So I'd be trying to sleep and I've got this kind of like, you know, little rising thing, and he never wanted to not be close to you. So there was none of this sleeping, you know, in a Bayes net, like, there or like in a car, so I didn't feel comfortable having him in my bed, either. Because I'm worried about suffocating him, especially when you're so tired, that he's just exhausted, I worried like, What if I fall asleep in that role on him or something? So what we did is we took the side of his car and now you can buy these, you know, great inventions, we can actually stick them up at the side of the car and just put it right up against my bed and I had to sleep half hidden his cot half in my bed. And as soon as he was asleep I try and retract you know so like this like a ninja trying to take my spike, but he just sensed it. They sent it like just no longer. Yeah. And I'd wake up and I could barely move my neck and my arm be like dad like pins and needles. Yeah, the things we have to do Hey. Yeah, and they won't remember any of it. Probably for the best to be honest. What those early years, early months or so, so fundamental in a kid's development, like, if you don't do the right things, then never those connections are never formed. And that person never developed the way they're supposed to. So all those little things that you did like all the silly talk, and all the you know, the smiles and all that it's so authentic, and all the code and I think that's it you feel stressed by? Because you feel like you should be doing so many things. Like you know, when you've got a new phone, especially if you've got a toddler as well, it's really it's really difficult. That those cuddles in those first district so quick, like six weeks and it's different, right? Yeah. When tiny, tiny, tiny, and just having those moments like cherish but this snuggled up on you and they smell nice. There. And, you know, it goes so fast. He really does it, really. But my daughter now she's 12 she's gonna be 13 this year, she's the same height as me. She's gonna be taller than me. I'm not I'm not that tall, though. So it's not that hard. But, you know, she's already so grown up. Like, I think people always say, oh, kids are so grown up these days. I think probably, I don't think I think that's probably the same. They just have access to more information these days. That's the best the difference. We didn't have it connected to the world. Yeah, yeah, we just didn't have that. The big piece of me looking at it in my sport shorts. It's, it's called Making my claim. And that was the whole the whole thing about like ties into the feminism and just saying, like, I'm here, like, I'm a woman, I'm here. I'm a mother. You know, I'm of a certain age, society kind of discards you, when you reach a certain age. In a way, it's the same that I'm making my claim. I'm here. I want to be a contender. And have the ambitions is something that's often you know, it's kind of, oh, she's ambitious, too. You know, it's like in negativity. When it comes to a woman. They say, It's okay to be ambitious. Like, it's okay. You should be good. And it's okay to put your own your own needs. Not above everybody. I don't believe that. It's like, oh, my needs first because I'm a mother and No, but my needs are there, though. They're there. And then we met, it shouldn't be the chocolate into this because that's just not how it's just not how any family. Yeah, it's the same with like, you know, a kid you can't get your needs matter above everybody else's, like all the time, because you're gonna grow up with this kind of little dictator. Compromising like compromising just so everybody's living, you know, nice, happy, happy. Exactly. Everyone's getting their needs met, but no one to the detriment of anyone else. And it's, you're not setting Anyone up for, you know, failure through their life by think making them think that they they're up here and everyone else is down here. And, you know, ya know, it's like about going to what you want everything as well. And that understanding that not everybody's on the same, you know, not everyone's running the same race, as well as there's things that you can be a really hard worker, but you'll never get to the point that somebody else will be more privileged perspective will reach it's just not it's just not how the world works. And that's, that's just it. It's horrible. And we're fighting for change. We're fighting for, you know, saying just by being present on social media and having a platform being a woman and showing our faces and showing our art and encouraging other women to do the same then at least we're doing a little bit to get it in the right direction. Absolutely. And the more more people that do it, it just, you know, it just builds on itself and just keeps keeps going and going to one day it happens yeah. Somebody said to me recently who's your main competitor, like in Singapore and tell me I'm touched is because he can't, if someone likes a piece you can't go up while they're in the process of buying someone else's piece and be like, weather my mind they just see, there's no such thing as competitors, you can be like, better known, so you'll fight for your spec market, because we have to, you know, it's like that. But you can't, you can't fight to be, you know, for somebody to buy a piece that they're going to buy someone else's. And it's like, actually, this is quite unique in that way. This what we're doing as artists, we really, really support each other. Yeah, yeah. And learn from each other as well. There's so much learning and I say, actually, I learned so much from Instagram, like, full of inspiration, getting inspired all the time. So I did a post recently, I have to say, like, you know, massive props to all the artists that are doing that stuff together and giving it to us for free. You know, it's, it's free, and we can see not just a couple of paintings a year a show. Yeah, you know what I wish we would have done 10 years ago, whatever. Yeah. thing that you'd be posts from people's people's practice. It's, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. And it's been such a pleasure chatting with you squint so lovely. We could chat all day. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Rebecca McMartin Australian podcaster + mental health advocate S3 Ep80 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I welcome Rebecca McMartin to the podcast, Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia, but sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller and mum of a little boy, nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet, and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being 'creative' or good enough. Following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling and start Perinatal Stories Australia - a podcast, blog, and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations, Rebecca hopes to increase awareness, to advocate for maternal mental health causes, to reduce stigma, to inform listeners about the support services available, to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. This episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders including anxiety, depression, PTSD, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Connect with Rebecca website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website Gidget House Subscribe to the podcast weekly email here - never miss an episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today. It is lovely to welcome you into my studio here in Mount Gambier in South Australia. As I'm recording this today, it's a beautiful 22 degrees Celsius outside. That's about 70 and Fahrenheit. If the sun is shining, there's a light breeze, there's not a cloud in the sky. And you can probably hear the birds are singing. I thought I'd leave my window open and give you a little taste what it feels like to be in my part of the world. Today I'm welcoming Rebecca McMahon to the podcast. Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia. But she sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller, and mom of a little boy nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being creative, or being good enough, following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling, and start perinatal stories Australia, a podcast blog and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations. Rebecca hopes to increase awareness to advocate for maternal mental health causes to reduce stigma to inform listeners about the support services available to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. Please be aware this episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders, including anxiety, depression, post traumatic stress disorder, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Thanks again for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for coming on. Rebecca. This is a real pleasure to meet you and to speak to you today. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. I think I followed your podcast for a while now. So I felt very like privileged Whitney, like sent me a message saying if I'd like to come on, and I was like, Yes, please. It's lovely to hear. Thank you. So you're in Sydney. Yeah. What's it like up there today? Is it is it? It's disgustingly hot. But I mean, I can't complain. It's been terrible weather all year up until about a week ago started to feel like summer finally. So I guess, you know, you get what you wish for and like we've been the same. It's just we've had no sort of just nice average weather. It's been raining extremely cold. Yep. Or then we get 39. So it's like I said, I can't wait till it gets hot and then we can start whinging about how to exactly, exactly. I need something new to whinge about you know? Yeah, so your mom and Your Podcast, you've been very active on your social media, sharing your your story and your journey with your perinatal stories Australia, can you can you tell us all about that and what inspired you to start that whole experience for people? I mean, you know, perinatal stories Australia, it's it's a platform really to share stories about perinatal mental health, you know, what we go through? I mean, yes, there's contentious arguments in the community about whether perinatal anxiety or depression are actually different from non perinatal anxiety, depression, I feel like it is. And I felt like we needed a space to talk about that to share stories about that, because going through mental illness itself is hard enough, going through it as a mom during pregnancy and or postpartum is just on another level. And that all came about, you know, I've had a history with anxiety, I've had a history with depression. And I, you know, naively thought that, you know, if this does happen to me postcard, and then you know, I've gone through it before I'll get through it again, it'll be right. But you know, as we learn, it doesn't discriminate. You can be a psychologist or social worker, you could be a doctor, you could have all this experience and personal history or knowledge of mental health or mental ill health, and it can still hit us like a ton of bricks. And that's what happened to me, I, I guess I was in denial about how anxious I was during my pregnancy. And, you know, I was so focused on postpartum and wanting to control my postpartum in order to protect myself from depression, or anxiety, or psychosis, which I'd learned about during pregnancy, and it scared the absolute shit out of me. But yeah, I was in denial about the fact that my anxiety was really there in pregnancy, and it was getting worse and worse and worse, at the start, I kind of kind of brushed it off, because, you know, I could still go to work, I was still functioning. So therefore, it was okay. You know, we tell ourselves those things, and you know, it's fine. And it'll be fine. When he you know, my baby's here, it's just hormones, you know, we go through that we dismiss ourselves. And my anxiety just got worse and worse, to the point that I wasn't leaving the house. And I know, that's such a stereotype. But I was having panic attacks every day. And I, I developed this fear of birth, which became pathological and even I was just missing myself, like, all everyone's scared of birth, and I'd taken all the classes, you know, all the calmbirth classes and wanting to be prepared, and I was originally feeling confident about birth. And then I wasn't, then I was just convinced I was going to die. And so that anxiety just took hold, I couldn't move, I couldn't go to work without bursting into tears couldn't leave the house couldn't make decisions. And it just the closer and closer it got to birth, the more and more it felt like I'm getting closer and closer to death. So that just became obviously a very horrible, horrible experience. But again, I just kept thinking, oh, when he's here, when the bus over, it will be fine. Obviously doesn't happen. You know, we I mean, mental illness in pregnancy is so under diagnosed, and so brushed off because we're so focused on postpartum. Yeah, and, you know, unfortunately, if you don't treat it in pregnancy, it actually gets us into a spot of like, you know, though, shocked to me, but I'm sure a shock to a lot of people I've spoken to a lot of mothers who said the same thing, you know, it popped up in pregnancy, but all hormones, it'll get better. And it doesn't because you're then thrown into this whole new situation with a whole new human who you have to, you know, you have to look after them so that they can survive and Yeah, unfortunately for me, I will, unfortunately but I I ended up booking a planned cesarean because I just the thought of going through labor and not panicking. I just couldn't see myself doing that. And you know, I guess the C section wasn't exactly a walk in the park I wasn't looking forward to that either. But there was a bit more certainty and a bit more control and the thought of going through labor and ending up in an emergency sixth section anyway because I wasn't able to control my anxiety. I made that decision and you know, it may have been me and you know, your coping skills you think okay, if that's something that you're scared, okay, just kind of tune it out a little bit. And so I was in the surgery and I I was in the room, my mind wasn't in the room. And you know, that led to something that I wasn't expecting, which was actually birth trauma. I did get diagnosed with postpartum PTSD and from that, I think that dissociation So yeah, that took me by surprise because in theory On paper, I had a very textbook birth, I lost minimal blood, everything was okay. Everyone was so lovely to my obstetrician, the midwives, I was even allowed my social worker in that room because everyone in that room knew how anxious I was. And they were doing everything to make sure I was comfortable and safe and okay. But I was still scared. And that anxiety in late pregnancy just obviously manifested and became crisis point within a few days of my son's birth. So I couldn't sleep. Anytime I tried to close my eyes, I would, I would have nightmares. And it would just jolt me, you know. So for days, I was having like red flashing firework scary images in front of my eyes, and I was petrified. So I was already anxious in pregnancy, this then just scared the shit. Obviously, you know, and then you've got a baby to look after. And I developed well, I learned that I had OCD my whole life, but it was very mild. It then obviously became a bit more acute. At this point in time, everything just kind of bubbled up. It was, you know, the anxiety were full crisis mode, there was the PTSD, there was rapid onset of OCD, there was a lot going on. And within a few days of my son's birth, we were admitted to a mother and baby psychiatric hospital because I was so distressed and I wasn't sleeping. And yeah, that's obviously not the story, I thought I'd tell about my own motherhood, that's not the story. You know, here I am thinking, Oh, I've had experience with mental ill health. You know, I can see my psychologist, you know, I've got skills, all of that went out the window. And I was absolutely at rock bottom. And, you know, this is someone me who is comfortable talking about my mental health who's had that experience. I can only imagine going through that. And you haven't seen a psychologist before. You haven't. I didn't even know that there was such a choice was and I especially didn't know that there were any for mothers and babies. This was all intimidating as well. So I mean, that turned out to be the best thing I've ever done in my life. Obviously, at the time, I didn't think that I was, I was terrified. Because this just felt like another thing I'd failed, or, you know, I was crazy. I was broken, I had no reason to be there. You know, there are women who are single parents, or they've gone through a very traumatic birth, or they've, you know, they're victims of domestic violence, or for whatever reason, I thought, You know what, I'm coming from a place of privilege. I shouldn't be feeling this, I must be broken. I must be crazy. You know, you, you kind of say things to yourself, like, Well, someone else has a better reason for this. It's clearly I'm just broken. No, and yeah, yeah, we look for those reasons. And when we can't find it, we then blame ourselves even more. Which is ridiculous, isn't it? Because there's we have absolutely no control, no control whatsoever on how on all of this stuff. Yeah. And yeah, sure, you know, maybe if my anxiety had been managed, better in pregnancy, and you know, the hormones, you know, maybe there was something more we could do. But at the end of the day, it doesn't discriminate. It's in my psychopathy, or my psychology, or, you know, it just it was going to happen. And I think a lot of people had to validate that for me is that, you know, with your history, something like this was going to happen, maybe not 16, and it obviously just snowballed out of control. But, you know, and how lucky am I that I was able to go to that Mother Baby Unit, I say this a lot, but I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that, you know, my son and I were allowed to be admitted together. That's the whole point. You know, the mother gets treated, while still prioritizing that mother baby diet, making sure you know, mom and Baba together and i My heart breaks for women who have to go to, you know, the emergency department and they're separated from their Bob for days or weeks. And you know, they're in a place where they can't have visitors. And I mean, this was in the middle of COVID lockdown in Sydney as well. So I was lucky my husband was able to stay as well because you know, they prioritize that family unit. We were locked in this little hospital. But again, being a mum in a general, you know, a public hospital or whatever with an emergency department in that psych unit not being allowed visitors your phone's taken off, you kind of thing I just My heart breaks and like I said, I am so lucky, so fortunate that I was able to attend the only one in New South Wales at that time. Know, I guess that's to answer your question. That's where perinatal stories Australia came out because like I said, this wasn't the story of motherhood. I was excited acting. And despite my knowledge and my experience, this all took me by surprise. And there was so much that I learned about mental health, specifically maternal mental health. And I just thought we don't talk about this. You know, it wasn't until I started talking to, you know, family extended friends, that people were like, Yeah, my sister's been there, or you're my auntie went to that hospital. People knew about it, but we don't talk. And what a disservice we're doing to mothers, by not talking openly about this by maybe, you know, they will then feel ashamed. Like, I'm clearly broken, I had to go to a psychiatric hospital, I'll never talk about this in my life. And I thought, I don't, I don't want that I don't want this to just be a bad memory, I want to do something with it. I want to tell these stories, my own and other women's so that there are mums out there potentially going through this who don't think they're broken, they don't think they're alone, and that they can potentially learn about some of the options available. You know, when you're in that moment, or that moment that, you know, crisis point, you feel like there is no help hope there is no help. There is nothing that will save you. And to know that, you know, it's not just necessarily going to a counselor, it could be antidepressants, it could be a psychiatric hospital, it could be seeing a social worker, it could be there's an occupational therapist, there are so many different pathways to receiving help are a combination of all of these, you know, whether you go down the line of potentially doing therapy like the eye movement, desensitization reprocessing, so EMDR whether you do that, or whether you go down the line of TMS, so the transcranial magnetic? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know the acronym at the top of my head. But there's so many options, and they sound scary. But then when you actually talk to women and hear their experience of it, it becomes less and less foreign. And you start to feel a little bit more of that hope. So that was my goal. That was my goal with the podcast. And it took me it's taken me a year now to actually release the episodes. I only released my first episode six weeks ago, but I've been thinking about it and working on the social media stuff, and just trying to, I guess, build that community, but also feel a little bit more confident, because I have no idea I'm doing, let's be honest, I'm not a podcast, I still don't see myself as that. I don't see myself as a creative. So that in itself is something I'm still trying to negotiate with myself. So yeah, me being me, I want to be great at what I do. So I didn't want to release an episode. Like, you know, I had to build it up and had to learn and I had to teach myself because I didn't want to get too excited. I wanted to make sure I did it. Right. Yeah, I worked on the social media stuff just as a little as a starting point. So that was a space. And it still is, you know, for advocacy for raising awareness for education for sharing some parts of my story, some of those personal bits and pieces. And now obviously, that the podcasts been released, I'm sharing the stories of those moms who've gone through that, which is phenomenal. And I'm so grateful that they've been open and honest about those experiences, because the amount of women who have messaged saying, you know, I didn't know that this was an option I or I've gone and booked in to see my doctor, I'm actually going to ask for help now. Yeah, sorry. I just get shivers that it's yes, I can totally resonate with that. I think that's just the way I sort of see it is like not everybody is capable of sharing. And that's fine. So it's, it's totally okay. The people that are I sort of feel like it's it's your I don't know what the word is. You're not obliged to do it. But if you know how to do it, do it because it just helps so many people and you have no idea like you said until people talk about it you don't know who in your life you already know or I've met that has had experiences similar or can learn from your experiences like you were saying about people go oh Jeepers, that's raise something in May. I'm going to do something about it. It's so powerful and I just think like Good on you because it's it is vulnerable to share. What is the definition of the perinatal time period so perinatal is pregnancy to a year postpartum technically that is the medical definition, I'm of the opinion and with some other people I've met on Instagram, but you know, it could also be preconception, you know, if you're going through infertility or loss, that doesn't discount, it's not that you shouldn't be included because you don't technically meet that pregnancy and postpartum one definition, I still include it. But I mean, on a technicality, it is that time period between pregnancy and one year postpartum. And that's when you are most vulnerable to a mental illness as a woman, you are never more vulnerable than in that time period in your life yes. When you talked about having been able to go to the hospital to admit yourself and your baby, I didn't know those plates existed either. When I went through my experience with my second child, I was offered to be admitted to hospital, but it would have meant that it was only for me and not baby. So I chose not to. Because I felt that it was more important for me to be with my child, because I actually had this feeling that he was going to help me heal. I just had this really, I don't know what it was a feeling that I had to keep him close to me. And I think that's what deep helped me get through it. Whereas with my first child, I was always pushing him away and pushing him away. And that's the thing too, I think, even though we do have these, these mental health issues, it can be so different with the each child that you have. Exactly. Which is was my experience. Yeah, it's it's a weird, weird thing, the brain and the way our bodies work. So when I want to go back to when you were pregnant? Yeah. And you talked about having your you said it was your social worker, I think, yeah. So you had support during your pregnancy. And so me being me and wanting to be in control and prepare for postpartum, I did go through a very informal postpartum planning, it was my way of being in control. And really, it was just a symptom of my anxiety. But it worked out well in the sense that I had, I had reached out to Gidget foundation, so digit house, they have their free talk therapy, during pregnancy and postpartum. So I reached out and I got on the waitlist for that. And I was able to speak to a psychologist throughout my pregnancy and postpartum one who was obviously well versed in maternal mental health. And through my obstetrician, she was phenomenal. I know so many people have not so great experiences I had, I had a wonderful one who was constantly checking in on my mental health and, okay, so at the hospital, I gave birth, she referred me to the social worker. So it's an obstetric social worker who's part of the hospital, my OB referred me through there, just just to make sure that I had like a safety net, just in case. And so I went to speak to that social worker just once give her a rundown of my history. It wasn't until we got closer to birth, that I was scared of the birth that my OB coordinated with her to be present at the time of the birth. And then obviously, she became such a key part in my postpartum my early postpartum while I was in hospital having that acute episode, she was the one who got me into the mother and baby unit, which I didn't even know existed. So I'm, I had that safety net in a way, which, you know, again, I cannot imagine where I would be. I know where I'd be. I don't want to imagine it. If it weren't for her, or even my OB to actually put me in contact with her, someone who knows maternal mental health and knows the services and support systems that are available to catch you when you fall. So, yeah, it's when I was saying before, I'm from Gambia, we're a small town. They say we're, we're the second largest city, and I say city in inverted commas. Because we're not a city. We're we're a large country. 10 second largest outside of Adelaide, like in Australia, which is quite scary. I mean, it is. Yeah. Got it. You can't compare the City of South Australia today via the capital city. Which is kind of nice to do. But yeah, I had no idea what's Ever since we had or didn't have, I just presumed we really didn't have anything down here. And it wasn't until that I needed them that all of a sudden you discover all this stuff. And I sort of I didn't have when, when my first child, I was sort of diagnosed after the fact, a few years later of having personnel depression, because I basically slipped through the cracks, because I wasn't giving them the answers that they needed for the takeoff checklist. Basically, I didn't fit the criteria. And unfortunately, there was wasn't the, you know, the services or the right people at the right time to ask questions, always really struggling. And it's not just because basically, I was trying to justify it. I was like, Oh, I'm just having a bad day. You know, I just haven't had a lot of sleep. I was in complete denial, and was my husband that said to me, I think you've got that thing that they talked about it. Any NATO class, I'm like, No, I don't I've just, you know, it's just a crap day. But it wasn't just a crap day. And it was really funny A Few Years Later. Not funny, but, you know, ironic using my gynecologist who was I kept saying, you know, between my babies, because I was having my Rainer, and then having that removed and all that and, and he said, Oh, yeah, sounds like you had some postnatal depression, or that's something that could have been solved with one, one tablet a day. And I just went off for God's sake. Just the other night, it was not that he was belittling, it was basically saying we could have fixed that we could have. Actually, nobody realized, you know? Yeah, and so then it was really good. When I had my second child. Like you were saying about having things in place, mine was a little different. Because I don't know, it was seven years between my children. And I had this idea that I was going to be fine. Yeah, it's like denial again. And when I was pregnant, because I don't know, my pregnancy hormones kept me right up here. I was cracking along, everything was great. I was journaling about all the things I do differently, and everything was gonna be different. And when I got into the hospital, they, they've sort of red flag to my file. You know, watch out for this one, sort of, which was the best thing they ever do. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. When it happened, things moved really quickly. And really, in the right, you know, everyone knew what had to be done. Because it did happen to have even made it to three days after I heard you, it just went back. And I, I also had a very traumatic birth and, and got diagnosed with PTSD from the birth. But the whole birth trauma thing was a new thing. Because it wasn't two years after that, I actually realized that that's what it was. And that was just through social media, following particular people and just went, Oh, I think that's what happened to me. And then I'd been vaccine was my counselor. Like for therapy and stuff, and I talked to her about it. And when I was really telling her my birth story, and she said, Oh, yeah, I don't want to diagnose you with something else. But yeah, you've got PTSD. And that's birth trauma and understood a lot. Like, oh, wow, just add it to the list. Just another thing to add Yeah. It's the weirdest thing. You just, some people just, you know, breeze through it, everything's great. Everything's fine. And you sort of think, like, I don't know, did you have an experience where you talked about not having the ideal birth? And do you ever feel like you've missed out? Did you ever feel completely, like almost jealous of other people that have got to have certain things, I went through a grieving process. And that grieving process actually lasted longer than that acute episode, I was in hospital. So I was in hospital until my son was six weeks old. That's when we were discharged the day after he turned six weeks old. And obviously, things weren't great, but I wasn't in that acute crisis state. I was back to maybe mild, moderate. And then, you know, once you're out of that distressed state, you can then work on therapy and all the skills that you had, that then starts to kick in. But then the grief hit until maybe my son was about six months old. And you know, I would my one of my friends had her baby boy. So I have a son. So she had a baby boy about three months after I did. And, you know, she had the vaginal birth she had the breastfeeding journey that I didn't. And yes, that's not to dismiss how hard motherhood is, but she had that newborn bubble. And I, I cried it. To put it bluntly, it felt like my heart broke into a million and pieces, because I just thought how much mental illness took away. You know, not just what I wanted, but it took away that newborn bubble, that breastfeeding experience, you know, the bonding that we're told, breastfeeding provides us it took away moments that I would never ever get back those first six weeks of my son's life, I would never get those back. And it took up until he was six months old for me to reconcile with that, and to Yeah, come to a place where I, you know, no matter how much I wanted to, I couldn't change what had happened. So in that up until he was six months old, that grieving process, I then reached stuck. I then wanted to reestablish breastfeeding and try re lactating. So I tried so hard at that I, you know, had the approval of, you know, the community nurse, and my psychologists, psychiatrists, because they said, Okay, you're in a different headspace, but I was still grieving. And in my head, reestablishing breastfeeding was my way of wanting to get back the time that I had lost, because if I just clung to breastfeeding as the answer to my problems, and it didn't work, which I knew it wouldn't work, probably for a few. I was, you know, you have to pump like seven times a day, 10 minutes each. So you know, it is just not happening when you've got a an infant and you're speeding, you know, playing, changing body, all of this, you know, and you need to eat yourself. And so it just wasn't happening, but I clung to it. And it wasn't until six months postpartum, that I just realized that even if it did work, even if I was able to reestablish breastfeeding, there was nothing that would change what had happened, there was nothing I could do to get that time back, even if it magically worked. And I was breastfeeding and we could enjoy this current time in this sense through breastfeeding. Those six weeks weren't coming back. And I needed to make peace with that and that grief was that like I said, it lasted a lot longer than even the acute episode and it was consuming it did a grief made me you know, suffer more than I already was. But yeah, there was that jealousy and there was that just I mean, I call it grief because it just I wanted so badly what they had not that I wanted to take it away from them, but I just wish I got Yeah. And no, I mean it's still even with me. One of my other friends had her beautiful baby girl about six weeks ago and you know, I didn't cry for a solid two months straight this time. I cried for a couple of hours but that just yeah, it it still hits you and you still think what did I miss out? You know, the last bit of my pregnancy that you know, you convince yourself you're not capable or you can't function and your anxiety is just in control. And you know, you just wish you was strong enough I guess I'm gonna use that in quotes to overcome your anxiety and be brave you know all that positivity. So you know, you wish you could just think it think your way out of it and have some positive affirmation. And it doesn't but you still hold on to that you know, you still think God I wish I could have just I wish I wasn't controlled by my anxiety or I wish I wasn't controlled by my mental health and because of that I missed out on some of the experience I wanted and it's not my fault it is an illness. But it still hurts it hurts like hell. And yeah, like I said I didn't like with my friend who had her boy at three months when I was three months postpartum I cried every single day for hours and hours and hours a day for maybe two three months. This time it was only a few hours but you know it that grief is mental illness takes away a lot from us you know and especially as a mom you miss out on on so much and your kids grow so quickly and in that six weeks I wasn't getting that time back you know and that's still something that eats away and sits with you and I don't know if I deliver not eat away at me but yeah, you know and that's okay. That's okay. I'm allowed to grieve that you know it's getting easier but yeah absolutely. You said how mental illness take so much away is that what's makes you really passionate about sharing your story. It's like you can, you can take this thing that's been so destroying and turn it into something. I don't want to say positive because it sounds cliche, but you know me like to sort of say, okay, so this has happened, this has been really shit really, really bad. But the silver lining is that maybe I can help someone else. Maybe I can, you know, has that been a factor in think so. But I think this was also my way of processing the grief and owning my story. You know, this was a strict like I said, I this is not the story, I want to be telling you about motherhood, I wish I had a very different story to be sharing. I wish I had the stories that my friends were sharing about their births and their newborn bubbles. And, yeah, I wish I had that. But this is my way of owning it. This is my way of acknowledging that I can't change those six weeks. And that's in it's hard. But I'm owning it. And by doing this by sharing my story, it's actually my way of processing my own bullshit. Processing my own grief and actually acknowledging, well this did happen. And I can, you know, try to sweep it under the rug, and, you know, pretend it didn't happen and just have it eat up my worth for the rest of my life, or I can own it. I can own that this was my experience, acknowledge that it wasn't what I wanted. And I can potentially do something with it that hopefully make someone else feel less alone so that they don't have to sit there in silence. Yes, they don't have to share their story with the world. But they can sit there and know that they aren't alone. And that this is shit, but that it does get better. Like I promise it gets better. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's what kept me going with my second child is because I had that perspective of having one already and going. I know they grow. I know, it changes. I know, this isn't forever. That was a pretty important thing for me being stuck in that. Because the first time it was just like, oh my god, is this ever going to end? This is? Assuming Yeah, yeah. So hearing that is pretty important, I think to know that it's not always going to feel and you're not always going to have these emotions. You're not always. And it's okay. Like, even if you don't have mental ill health, it is okay to acknowledge that motherhood and especially that newborn stage can be shaped Yes, it can be awesome. It can also be really, really hot. And I think it's so important that we talk about that because there are mothers out there who feel alone, like yes, they might not have a mental illness, but they still feel like they're suffering on their own. We don't want anyone to feel like that. And that whole sort of pressure that society has on us that it's like we've touched on, it's got to be a certain way, mothers should be able to do it. And if you ever complain about how hard it is, oh, well, you wanted to have children, you know, this way that society just shuts lately completely, like, oh, but you wanted to have a job? Why are you complaining about your job? Like, it's the same bullshit, but we don't say that to someone who got a nine to five and is complaining in nine to five, you know, we, it is ridiculous, but I mean, that experience Yes, it you know, was a way to process my own stuff, but it also motherhood and the experience I went through helped me I guess, figure out my own values or the values will already there, but it was the way I it was kind of pushing me that I had to start to actually live by my values, which obviously influenced the work that I'm doing. Yes, I am doing podcasting now, but I've always been a writer. Yeah, I've always been into creative writing and storytelling, and, you know, I always wanted to write a book, but on no way that doesn't pay the bills. I need a nine to five. So you know, it's this third podcasting. It's actually my way of sharing stories like that journalism, that storytelling that interviewee you know, that's coming back to those values. And yes, you know, we don't want to sit here and say, Oh, you've gone through should experience Um, here's the silver lining, but my silver lining is that, you know, going through what I went through, I realize just how important it is to. Yeah, not to shut ourselves down and to just go through. Yeah, to prioritize what we feel is important. And yes, it doesn't bring in the bills. But it's still important that that doesn't make it any less important. Hmm, but mental health advocacy is something I've always wanted to do long before I became a mom. Yeah, storytelling was something I always wanted to do. So this platform has allowed me to do both. And that that's why I don't feel like I'm working like I mean, I can't even call it a job. Like I said, I don't get paid. But it feels it's work. But it doesn't feel like work to me. I wake up in the morning, and I want to do it, and go to sleep at night thinking about it again. And it feels important, and so I wouldn't. Yeah, the experience of what I went through, made me realize just yeah, that that direct show that purpose, that meaningfulness I guess, came through all of the shitty stuff. Yeah. Tell me about your writing. So, like I said, I only started to kind of see myself as a creative person recently. I've always been a creative child, though, like the witch. Yeah, I, I guess I forgot about that. You know, I was always doing drawing or cross writing. I'm always trying to make something. I mean, it would could be terrible, but I was doing it anyway. Yeah, you know. But then, you know, as you get older, and me being who I am, you need that praise that validation. And so you lose touch with that creativity, because it doesn't get you got a pluses or the ticks or the, you know, you don't get a job out of it, really. And so that led me down the path of, you know, wanting to pursue things that did get me that praise that did get me that a plus and that validation. So you think that you're not good at creativity, because you're not getting that. That to me, being me, I'm a perfectionist as well. But in my spare time I wrote, I wrote a lot. So outside of school or doing homework, that was my outlet to understand the world or whatever I was going through. But again, I never got that success. I can remember, like, as one of our school English teachers, she was an actual author. And she'd set up a book club at school. And I was so excited because I thought I just want to be part of this. And I'd written a novel when I was like, 13, or something. And so I submitted it to her. And she said, Rick, I'm not going to read it, because that wouldn't be fair. And I'm glad she did it. In hindsight, because it was absolute trash. I, you know, it kind of broke my heart a little because I saw I wanted her to read it. And I'd be famous author. And anyway, so she said, Why don't you submit a smaller piece of work? And you know, if it's good, we'll go into the book club, because I think you'll be great in the book club. So I submitted this piece of work to her and I didn't get into the book. So you know, it just, I guess all of that either. Just reinforces that I wasn't very good. You know, you don't get that praise, you don't get the you think you're not good at it. So you don't want to pursue it. Right. Like it's very discouraging. So yeah, I spent those teenage years telling myself I was so creative, I wasn't good at that. So I needed to be I needed to do things I was good at. I was good at I was actually very good at writing essays, probably the story writing helped with that. But, you know, I was excellent at writing essays, I'll toot my own horn there. Even at uni, I would get the high distinctions and things. So I pursued those lines of study and work because that's what got me the, the tick of approval, like, then that you know, if other people are telling me I'm good at it, then that's what I have to pursue. So I would always come back to writing though, you know, after school, I'd take little short courses or creative writing courses, certificates, or whatever. And I did so many of them because I just loved telling stories. And I thought the more courses I do, the better I'll get at it. You know, you want to be the best at it. You don't want to do it. Unless you're good at it. Yeah, yeah. It's that whole, I guess that's a societal thing. But yeah, that need for a job would just come and swallow up any creativity. So I shifted the focus from maybe writing to becoming a book editor, because that in my mind would be the closest I'd get to being in that field. And, you know, potentially could hypothetically do some writing around the nine to five kind of thing I even did. My university degree was in English Literature writing, linguistics, journalism edit, you know, I did all of that. And I loved it. Don't get me wrong, but of course, it was the essays and the, you know, the linguistics that got me. You know, the top of the class and the high distinctions but not the creative stuff. This is horrible. story. I did a writing work At university, it was the one creative writing unit I did. And I never did another one, we had to write a short story, bring it to class, and the class would workshop, the story with you, you know, provide feedback, potentially structure or character development. Anyway, I wrote a story about my own experience with mental illness. So in my early 20s, right. And it was received very simply. So, you know, I got told by one person that I was perpetuating the stereotypes of depression, because the character I had in the story was sobbing all day, and couldn't get up and work and go to, you know, what, couldn't get up and go to work. But at the time, that's what I was experiencing. In my early 20s, there was a point where my husband who was, who was my boyfriend at the time, he would have to help me leave the bed carrying me while I was sobbing to the shower, because I couldn't physically get up and go to work, you know, he would be there, he would help me wash my hair, he would dry my hair with the hairdryer because I just, I couldn't function, you know, and that was my experience. And so I thought I'd write about that. And that would be my, that was me processing my experience. And yeah, I I know, it's a cliche. And I know, that's not depression for everyone. Believe me, I've had the opposite end of depression, where you're just so numb, that there's no tears believe that I've had. But that was my experience. And I wanted to write about that short period of my life. And you know, I had the lecturer and tutor tell me, well, I shouldn't write about things I don't know about clearly, I didn't know what I was writing about. Obviously, this is just reinforcing that I shouldn't be a writer, I shouldn't be, you know, creative, I shouldn't be doing anything that I'm not good at, quote, unquote. I shouldn't write about things I clearly don't know anything. It was, it was my own personal. I mean, obviously, it wasn't very good. Clearly, everyone was telling me it wasn't very good, which is fine. But you know, as to maybe they weren't very good. Meeting me, I just, you know, unless I was getting that recognition that what I was doing was good and worthwhile and helping someone else or whatever, I didn't want to do it. So that then, you know, reinforced that I shouldn't be doing writing or anything creative. So that really pushed me into the editing and publishing. And I didn't do any more creative writing units, because I just thought, I'm not good at it. I'm, yeah, this isn't for me, I thought I want to do it. But if I'm not getting that feedback, then not this isn't for me, I'm not good at it, I'll do something I'm good at, which is the things that get you the a plus and the tickets. And you know, and I did don't get me wrong, I love editing, and publishing, I did a few courses around that as well. I have this fascination with the English language or with language in general. So I ended up getting a job at my university. I'm on Matt Lee from an hour, but I was an English language specialist. And I would edit documents and write glossary definitions. And I'd work in the data team and analyze data from that language point of view, rather than number seven. It was meaningful and fulfilling. And that was as close to creativity as I was gonna get. But it was still a real job in quote, marks, and I was enjoying it, potentially, because I was being praised for it, because I was good at it. And then obviously, becoming a mom, you know, your whole world and identity and opinion of yourself and values change. And, you know, I'm sitting here and it's like, yes, I would love that nine to five, but I want to do something that makes me excited to wake up in the morning that I'm doing something meaningful that I'm living to my values. So and again, I still don't see myself as a podcaster. Deep down my little my, my inner self still says sees myself Oh wants to see myself as a writer. Because that's how I've always wanted to see myself. Yeah. So you know, telling stories is a big part of what I do on Instagram, not just others, but my own and just little snippets here and there. And that that provides me the most. It's cathartic in a way for me, but yeah, that provides me the most meaningful and purposeful, you know, activity anyway, that's like I said, it's the I still don't see myself as a podcaster because I'm still figuring out but yeah, I guess now I I'm learning that I don't have to be great at something to enjoy doing it. And that's taking what don't get me wrong. I'm not 100% there yet, they'll still be a part of me that wants to be the best at everything and wants to know what I'm doing before actually do it. I don't want to learn by doing it because I don't want to be you know, it's that mentality that takes a while to get out of to break out. Oh, so like I said, I spent the last year just trying to figure out how to actually podcast and I would do so much and I do so much on the back end. So that actually now that I'm starting to podcast, it's coming easy, because I invested so much time into the back end But there was no way I was going to do it. At the start, at this time last year was actually when I set up my ABN and stuff. And anyway, but yeah, it. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. But that's no. That's the thing that you're conscious of things that you want to improve or change. You know, that's, you know, a step ahead of most people, I think a lot of people go through life just oblivious to their behaviors or the way their behaviors affect others or things that they could, you know, change in their lives that would make life better for them. So, you know, good on Yeah, I know where I need to improve. Am I getting there slowly? Well, I get there, 100%, maybe not, I'm still, you know, those perfectionist tendencies that, you know that you hold on to that criticism, slowly unlearning that, but you know, and that's okay. I don't have to be perfect at not being. Yeah, a lot of what you're saying I can really resonate with. I mean, I think I'm a little bit older than you, I'm in my 40s. And I've got to a place now where I just don't give a shit of what people think anymore. And that is so different to the person I was growing up. I was so with what people thought that feedback was so important to me. You know, I, like you've said about situations where people have given you feedback that, you know, it wasn't what you wanted to hear, and it stopped you from doing things I've done that. And at this point in my life, I just think if I want to do something, I'll do it. And I don't care. So yeah, it's possible. It's possible and it's so freeing when you start caring what other people think it's a wonderful feeling it like you're just living your life the way you want to live it and, like, God, I would be, I'd be walking down the street as a teenager. And I would, I would tell myself, the stories in my head that are that person that just drove past in that car, they were judging my genes that they weren't the right. Like I would create all these things in my head. And then yeah, as you grew up, we just go, no, that didn't happen because people don't give a shit. Everyone's worried about themselves. Everyone's even if they were judging my genes. That's their problem. Yeah, exactly. Good. Yeah. No, it is. It's an amazing feeling. And you just think, My God, why couldn't I be like this when I was young? How much suffering did we have to go? To learn what we've learned? Now? You know that? Yeah. But the good side is that, you know, it's gonna be, you know, God willing, I live that long, but it's gonna be good next half of my life. Totally. And what a good example to set for your kids. Really? Oh, yes. Yeah, teaching them that it's okay to not actually care that other people will let you have to bend yourself over backwards to accommodate other people's. Whatever. Yeah, I think that that's a huge thing that we're unlearning and that we get to teach our children. Hmm. Yeah, I'm, I'm excited, I guess, for the future to see and hope that our kids don't carry that bullshit with them until they're in their 30s or 40s. Or whatever, that they can maybe live a little without that fear of judgment, or fear of upsetting someone else. Dramatic, you know, just by being themselves. Yeah, exactly. And making no apologies for how, how they want to dress and what music they want to listen to me. Ah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I talk to all my moms about this, this topic of mom guilt. And I find it really interesting. It's something that I'm, I don't know why I'm so interested in it. Because I hate it so much. And I wish you're allowed to be you just but yeah, what's your take on it? I mean, I do believe mom guilt is real. I haven't quite decided if it's based on you know, the way we compare ourselves or our unrealistic expectations that we have of motherhood, although unrealistic expectations society gives us about another. I don't know if it's that or if there is some intrinsic component to mom guilt, but it's definitely real and it does. rear its ugly head, I guess, in so many contexts. You know, there's so many shorts, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And I, I'm guilty of it. I'm guilty of Mongo, I still feel like I should be doing more or spending more time with my son and you know, potentially if I wasn't working a little bit on the podcast, and maybe I could cook a better meal for him more, you know, whatever it is, but I'm also Learning. And again, this is a slow process, I'm learning to be self compassionate Sure, I could push myself beyond my, you know, human limits him to be better. But what would that wouldn't actually make the guilt go away or just make it appear in another way or in another form? Yeah, the context, there's no winning, you know, there's always going to be something better. There's always something going to be more you could be doing and then there's more sacrifices you make on yourself, and what's the cost? So I'm trying to learn to just, it's there, and it sucks. But I'm trying to keep it as background noise and trying not to let it control me because I don't think it would benefit myself or my son, or myself to be a mother who sacrifices 100% of my own wants and needs to be better, right? I don't think it's benefiting either of us. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So in one go, it's there and it sucks. But yeah, it's just learning to, I don't know, I don't like I said, I don't know where it comes from, or if it can ever go away, but I'm learning that if it's there, it can stay there, but I'm just gonna not try to feed into it or let it control my motherhood or my human experience, really, ya know, that it's so true. It's like when you say, you know, if you did do something, then something else would suffer. And then you feel guilty about that. And then if you do, then you feel guilty about that. It's like, it's just this constant juggling thing, you know, especially in motherhood, we talk about this work life balance, and I don't know if it actually exists, I think we're all just struggling to find that balance, or that ideal balance and really just doesn't exist, because you could be at work, you're feeling guilty, you're not at home, you're at home, you're feeling guilty, you're not working and there is or I could be exercise, or I should be doing this, I should be doing that. And there is no winning, there is no balance, because to have that balance, you've made that piece. And you know that you're doing 100% Yeah, do that. Is it possible? Yeah, it's impossible. So I'm, yeah, it's there. And it sucks. And I'm learning just to let it sit there and to just sit in that discomfort that it will exist, and I'm doing my best. And it will tell me, I could be doing more or I could be doing better, or that there is a different definition of best. Just trying to Yeah, let it just be let it lets myself sit with it and just do what I'm doing anyway. Yeah. Now, that's really good advice. I think that thing of being kind to ourselves, and not making ourselves feel guilty for feeling guilty, you know, just, you know, had an eye as long as you you'd like someone to put a post up the other day. And I just thought this is the epitome of life, you know, if you can take your child into bed, who's fed and loved. And, you know, I just think that we've made it you know, if your child wakes up in the morning with a smile on his face, and I don't know, I agree, because like you said, there are so many shoulds. And so social media just feeds into that or you should be bottle feeding or co sleeping or not put you shouldn't use a dummy you shouldn't use you shouldn't that and you get so caught up in doing it right and feeling like you're doing it wrong. But as you said, if your kids alive, if they're happy, you've got a roof over your head, you're doing everything bloody right? There is no wrong in that situation. And I wish we could say that more, we get so caught up on what we should or shouldn't be doing. And everyone's got a different opinion. And really, as you said, or as that quote said, I think I saw it yesterday on your stories, but you kids fed, they're happy there's a roof over your head, they're in a warm bed. You're the best mother for them, you're doing everything right, drown out everything else, because it's not doing any favors. Really. Hmm. Absolutely. And you also touched on that, that sort of context that that idea of martyrdom about giving up everything of yourself, that it's just like you just think I'd be crazy than what I am. To do. Every single moment of my time to my children. I just think, I don't know, a lot of people I talk to through the podcast, you know, creative women who weren't doing something before they had a child. And just because they happen to have a child doesn't mean that that creativity and that need to create and the outlet and the release and the regulation that they get from creating just dissipates you know, it's it's it's such a i don't i It's a ridiculous notion. For some women. Being a mother 100% of the time actually is fulfilling and meaningful to them and hats off to them. For other women. That's not the case. And we need to make space for both. There's no right or wrong, that you know, if you are 100% fulfilled in motherhood and you know, meeting the needs of your children, then go for it. No one is stopping you for other months. I know for me, I'm I don't know, if it's an only child thing, I'm an only child, I need my space. I don't care if it's to do nothing, I need my space from other people. And that includes my son, I love the kid, I love being able to see him smile and try new foods or play with him. Love him. I need my space. Yeah, one of your questions on the page was in terms of identity. And yes, I mean, I don't know if it's necessarily important for me to see myself as being more than just a mother. There's nothing wrong with being just a mother. But I always wanted to be a mother. But I think it's important for me to be someone who lives according to her values. And someone who acknowledges that I do have my own needs and my own wants, and that's okay. That's actually okay. I'd never really wanted to be a crew person. But I also didn't want to be a stay at home mom, I guess. And trying to find that balance between the two extremes was important, I guess. And I'm still trying to figure that out. I want to work but I also want to raise my son, but I also want to meet my own needs and live by my values and explore my own interests. And whether those changes, I just want to be able to do that. I don't know if I'll ever find that balance. But it's important to me that, you know, I meet my own needs. And it's important that my son can see that I am my own person. And, you know, if one day I want to be just a mother, or I'll devote 100% My time to them, I'll go with that, if that's intrinsically what I want to be doing. But I guess for me, it's important that I'm doing what intrinsically feels right. And just trying to balance being a mum, figuring out my own sheep, you know, healing and pursuing my own interests and giving myself the opportunity to do that without labeling it as good or bad. Without being able to judge myself or say, Well, I'm not good at it, I shouldn't do it, or it's not bringing in, you know, it's not paying the bills, therefore, I shouldn't even try, you know, it's just trying to fit it in, around all the other shit. You know, and I guess that probably goes to your other question about day to day. Creativity, like, how does that work? I mean, there is no structure to my day, it just whatever feels right. Like, if I feel like playing with my son, I'm gonna play with him. Or if I feel like doing podcast stuff, I'll work around his schedule. So for some background information here, my my husband's in the military. So up until two weeks ago, he was deployed for the whole year. So when my son, yeah, sorry, when my son was six months old, my husband got deployed out of Sydney. So he was still in Australia. But he was in intensive training, he was allowed to come home every blue moon for 24 hours. But then he had to go back. So yeah, I was solo parenting my son for a whole year up until two weeks ago. And I mean, I didn't go back to a, you know, my office job because with, I mean, I've been sick as well. I've had glandular fever for the last six months. So you know, everything that could happen could go wrong. This has but insane that I'm surprised myself with I guess, growing up, I always had that narrative in my head that I was not capable. I'm not capable of coping. I'm not an independent person. I need to rely on other people. I'm not an adult, you know, you tell yourself that stuff. And then you're thrown into the deep end and you're like, oh, shit, I can actually cope. Well, yes, we're not in Thrive mode. We're definitely in survival mode this year. But I did it. I actually did it. And I raised my son and not just that, I also got to work on something I was really, really passionate about. Yeah, in the background. Yeah. So in terms of day to day stuff with me and my son, it was just when he was having a nap, I would quickly try to do some podcasting stuff or when he'd go to bed at night. I'm I'm such a night owl. I get so much done. Night. But that was my me time I could, you know, sit down and figure out okay, what podcasting platform do I want to use or what's my calendar system that people can book through and I'll do my website. You know, I was just working on it piece by piece by piece and it's hard when you're in that moment because you think I'm not getting anywhere. But when you look back and it's like it she'd look at all this stuff that I've done, like, look, oh my god, it's actually I actually did all of that. And it was just little moments, little moments that I could just slowly build. And again, I wasn't getting feedback from that this was me doing something that felt right. And that was all the feedback or motivation that I needed is that it just felt purposeful. It felt meaningful. But yeah, I mean, that's not to say it was easy. My son, at eight months old, decided he didn't like sleeping in the car anymore. This was a kid who slept in a car. From the moment he was born, he was such a chill, calm, baby, all of a sudden, he wants to co sleep. So you know, there I am. Nine o'clock at night rocking him to sleep in my house, because he wouldn't sleep in the car, he wouldn't sleep alone, he had to be on me or near me. And then I was finally going to eat dinner once I was able to feel confident enough to you know, roll him off me. Then I could go be a human, have a shower, have dinner, and then I could go potty. And that's hard. It's hard solo parenting. And I'm so you know, lucky, my husband, I didn't have to go back to a nine to five job because you don't we could financially afford for me to be at home with our son, you know, working on my mental health, my physical health looking after my son who brought home every day care illness. He was there three days a week. And I swear this year, he was home more than he was actually at daycare because he'd been so sick. And then I'd catch whatever he caught. And it was just, we're definitely surviving. But just any moment that I could just do something for myself on top of, you know, having a shower or brushing my teeth and eating. Like, it was a hard game. It's a very hard. I've got so much respect for you seriously. Because what are my Lord days is my nightmare. Seriously, I just, I just I feel I always feel so incapable. When I when I had my first, like, real episode, I suppose. After my son was born, the thought in my head was, I can't do this. I can't do this. I don't know what to do. Which was ridiculous. Because I worked in childcare for years before I had him. So I knew how to look after children. You know, but it was just this irrational. I can't do this. And it took me a long, long time to even after I was, you know, medicated and things were honestly getting back to normal. Yeah, I was like, Ah, I can't know what I'm doing what's, you know, just this doubt, serious self doubt. And similar thing when my husband got COVID, earlier in the year, and so we're really trying to isolate him away from the rest of us. And my first thought was, oh, shit, I'm gonna say, How am I going to do it all myself, but then I actually did do it. And I was actually fine. And I think because, because I knew that there was no other option. It was like, I just had to do it. And so I actually didn't struggle that much. Because I was really accepting of the situation I was in and was like, okay, not saying, you know, it wasn't hard. And everything was wonderful. But I didn't let myself get to those extremes where I'd get to a complete meltdown. Because I knew that there was no saving me like, there was nothing. I mean, you know, and I think as well, we tell ourselves these stories that we can't do it. And yet when we're actually in a situation, yes, it's hard. But we've hate hearing I am like, what actually surviving and it's that build up? You know, I think a big part of my episode was, obviously I was in the hospital and all I could keep thinking was, how the fuck am I going to do this? When my husband's away next year? You know, this last? How the hell am I going to get through this? How am I going to cope? I can't even look after myself. How the hell am I going to look after the sun? I'm in this hospital. There's mothercraft nurses and pediatricians and psychologists around me all day was great. Am I gonna do this? Yeah, but I did. Yeah, I did. And we just figured it out. And it was hard. But we did it. But it's that build up and mental illnesses is mean, it is so mean to us. It tells us we can't do anything. It tells us we can't cope. It tells us we're incompetent. And that, you know, then you play into the other kids deserve better and Oh, but other people can cope. Why can't I? Yeah. And it's a bully. And really, the reality is we can actually do hard things and it sucks. Do not get me wrong. It sucks. But we can do it. And when you're in those moments, you just do it. There's no doubting yourself because you are actually doing it. Yeah, yeah, that was that was one of the words that I tell myself to help myself out of things when I'd get this. I can't do it. And I'd say no, but I am actually doing it right now. When I am doing it, you know, just to tell myself a different story and to trick my brain. Yes, we have to trick our brain because it's tricking us. Yes, yes. Yeah, it is. It's it is tricking us. And I know I, with my music I've, I've given my list posole depression, this persona of the wolf, I call it I've written I'm working on an album at the moment where the whole the whole album is about, it's called Wolf. And it's about the whole journey. And it's each song is a is a tiny little time frame of how I felt at different times. And it literally, that's how it felt it was consuming me it was this thing that wasn't me. Even though it was existing within me, and it was attacking me it was taking all the good things away, and it was making me scared and vulnerable. Sorry, I'm getting goose bumps. It's like, it's just this thing that inhabits you, you know, like people called the, the, you know, the black dog, you know, it's just, it's just this thing. And yeah, we can we can tell a different story. You know, it's, I mean, I don't That sounds so simplistic, but when you're in like you said before, when you're in the wind, it's really happening when you're in these episodes, you can't do anything, there is no, there is no rational thought there's no way of controlling but when you start to come out in the help of, you know, professionals and what have you, and then you can start to sort of rewire and, and what do they call that cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever it is, like telling yourself a different story, taking out the shirts, oh, we should do this, we should do. You know, that was one of the things someone said to me at one stage, take out the shirts, there's no shirt, it's you might do this or you might think about doing this or you know, just change the way around things simple things like that can make a massive difference. Going back to identity, not just motherhood, but mental illness, it feels like a part of you, it feels like who you are, it feels like your identity. So being able to separate yourself from those thoughts from that experiences is very hard to do. As you said, coming out of that you're able to look at it as something different, you're able to look at it as a wolf or whatever personification you give it. Because you're able to see that it's happening to you, but it's not you. And that's very, very powerful. And for me, that was where storytelling came in. The more I wrote about it, the more I tried to be poetic about my experience, or to just even just journal it I started to see it as not me, not my identity. And that's when your that's when you're healing. I know firsthand how easy it is to feel like this is who you are, and therefore it's you that's broken or it's it's never gonna get better because you're not getting better. You know, you you tell yourself these things that yeah, in terms of identity it Yeah, it's all consuming. Yeah. And that's the thing. There was no way when I was in the throes of the real depths. There was no way I was separating it out. I was there it was me you know, and it was the same gynecologist that I you know made the off the cuff comment Well, you could have just fixed it with one pill a day yes I pragmatic. He's he's an awesome bike and I have a great relationship with Him any he said he said you know, it's it's a chemical imbalance in your brain. That's what it is. It's a chemical imbalance in your brain. Yeah, and it was like right there you go. It's not me it's no it's I night and that really gave me the power to say I am not in control of this. I physically cannot. So I had this horrible experience between I had between having my two children where am I safe a friend I put the quotes because I don't see this person anymore or associated with it because of this next told me that that mental illness and depression don't exist because you should be able to keep yourself well by affirmations positive affirmations like that before. And I just You have no idea you have not experienced what I've experienced like and that was even before I had the big episode. The second child it's like Sure. I'm not dismissing the fact that you know if you're a generally well person, if you don't have massive chemical imbalances in your brain, sure keeping yourself you know, mentally well through positive thinking and eating well and exercising that that's great, but when you actually are so unwell severely unwell It's no amount of putting positive affirmations, it's good to save it. Like, it's not even on the radar night. And I think like you said, it's not to just dismiss the importance of that stuff eating well exercising, it is important. And it's very useful. Potentially, when you are in that mild category, you know, or if you had a bad experience, you know, and we're not even talking trauma, we're just talking something negative has happened in your life, going and doing those things. Even just a little talk therapy affirmation, they're so helpful, there's no doubting it. But there is a difference between, you know, feeling a little depressed, or a little anxious or depressed or a little anxious versus having the illness, there's a big difference. And again, it's not to invalidate those feelings, but the illness is something entirely different. And I'm, I'm with you, I see a lot of that on social media, I see a lot of all mental illness isn't real, or it's just a societal problem. And if we fix society would don't get me wrong. There are societal factors that do impact our mental health. It is an illness, like for God's sake, we need to stop invalidating it. Because this is the reason people don't get help. This is the reason stigma exists. There's so much so much misinformation about it. And sadly, this is the reason some people die. You're made to feel like it's your fault, you're positive. If you didn't do enough to prevent it, you didn't do enough to think positively, you didn't do enough to exercise. I was exercising four or five times a week during my pregnancy, I was eating well, pregnancy was physically the healthiest time in my entire life. I was also the most mentally unwell I ever was in my entire life. You know, we can throw these things out. And so you could just join I was journaling like we can do. I was seeing a psychologist, I was doing everything right, ticking all the boxes. It doesn't matter. It does not discriminate. And it is an illness. You know, give yourself some grace for that. Like it. Like I said before, I blamed myself a lot. I thought I'm doing everything right. I should have prevented this. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. How much more suffering Do we go through? Because we think of it they fought their way out of it all, but they just exercised and felt better. They went for a walk. Why isn't that fixing me? We suffer so much more because of this misinformation because of I don't know people, people aren't like this with physical illness. It's not like I'm gonna yell at my kidney for not producing enough insulin if I had diabetes. But we we dismiss anything in our mind because we think we have control over it. Really, we're only cognizant of what 10% Of our brain like it just does my head in that we still have these attitudes. It's 2022. Like, come on. But yeah, you still see it on social media, if you just take these vitamins, if you just work on your, you know, oh, you're clearly deficient in this might joke at me. Yes, having a balanced diet, having our, you know, vitamins and nutrients all important, but that is not the cure. Like we need to stop pushing it as the cure. Because it's not. Yeah, and yeah, I whenever I say stuff like that, I just think they that person who's wearing it, they have no idea. They actually have no idea. And they're seeing life in this fanciful sort of rose colored glasses sort of way. They've never suffered. No one ever struggled in that from actual mental illness, you know, and I just, I get so mad. I just have to unfollow people or block people. I just think there's no, there's no debating with people like that. They've got their heart ingrained views, they're not gonna listen to, you know, make writing a comment. But I do think sometimes when there's a big backlash to something in the media, like a celebrity said something, and everyone jumps on him. They're the times when people with these, you know, perhaps don't understand, have this glimpse into maybe understanding I don't know, like, I remember years ago, this has gone back ages Belkin was one of our killers, friends passed away through suicide. And he wrote this big thing on his Facebook. I'm sorry, you couldn't hold on for us. I'm sorry. It's like this had nothing to do with you. It had nothing to do with anybody else. And people jumped on him. And he and he was writing it from a point of view that he'd experienced seeing someone with depression. Right. And so people were saying, you obviously have never experienced this yourself. And it was a real big thing. And he kept turned around and said, I'm really sorry, didn't say, you know, and so moments like that, I sort of hold on to hope that other people will see that and go Oh, actually, maybe I don't understand this. Yeah, but yeah, in everyday stuff you There's no, there's no debating with these people that that's what they believe. And you're never going to change them. But I just hope, yeah, society. Yet it really pisses me off like it's done someone with a broken leg, you're not going to go along and kick their crutches away and say, Come on, you can control yourself fix your leg, you know? Yeah, I feel like sometimes going around with a T shirt. Like, I haven't been to where it's like, okay, so like, do I need a sign saying like, Be nicer to me? Like, I don't know, it just it shouldn't be that way. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I wouldn't wish it on those people. Because unfortunately, sometimes the only way you know is if you have gone through it personally. Yeah. But I mean, I wouldn't wish on them to know it. But yeah, unfortunately, there is still so much misinformation about mental health and so much bullshit, really so much that people don't know well, that they think they know. Yes, they think they know because they might have seen it, or they've had it or they felt a little bit depressed about something. One point in time, but it's very different from the illness, like very different. And I wish Yeah, I wish we didn't have to justify the illness. No one with diabetes has to I mean, sometimes people, you know, they weighed shame or whatever, oh, it's your own fault. It's not your fault. Like for God's sake, whether it's a physical illness or mental illness, we need to stop this shaming of people who aren't 100% Well, all the time, you know, it's not their own fault. It has is it something like gestational diabetes as well during pregnancy? There's so much blame and this mis misinformation that you caused it yourself. You weren't eating right enough. You weren't, you know, exercising, and it's nothing to do with that for God's sake. In terms of your support network, what does that look like for you? I mean, one of the best support networks if I can be honest, is the fact my son went to daycare like three days. That helped. You know, my mom and my dad have been an enormous help like practically, especially with my husband being away so they come help look after Pejic sorry, for my son punchy is what it is. nickname. Well, when I was pregnant, my bump we called it my punch. So it just the poor kid the name has just stuck. And even all my friends and family has punched doing my budget like the politics of tour. It stuck with him. But yeah, they all come over look after pajetta Yeah, I'm all look after some of the practical stuff around the house, especially when I was in the real real pits of glandular and I couldn't move, I was sleeping all day. And no matter how much I slept, I was still tired. You know, I was lucky my parents, they yesterday like an hour away in traffic, but they were still able to come over every now and then and help out and stay. And especially with both of us, me and being sick. Like, that was such a big help. I still have a psychologist. I still say my psychiatrist through the mother and baby unit Hospital, which is phenomenal. And yeah, obviously I had my husband via FaceTime and stuff, which I get a you know, it's not the same, but thank God for technology. Yeah, thank God, we have that stuff. So yeah, in a way I was. I was supported in that aspect. Maybe more. So for the practical stuff and the mental health stuff in terms of the artistic work creative stuff. And I still don't quite see myself as that just yet. We're working on that. I really don't think I had anyone to draw on. I don't have friends who really I don't know anyone who has their own business or who, you know, made a living out of something creative. So this is like I said, it's all very, very new to me, I'm still figuring this out. As I go. I'm teaching myself I'm learning. I mean, social media has been good in that sense that you create that community and you then are in touch with a lot of other women who are trying to be creative or they're trying to make a business out of something that they're passionate about. And so you do have that solidarity. Um, I guess none of us have it completely figured out but yeah, just doing the best we can and learning as we go. I like I said the support I've had has been very good I don't know, I've been very self taught. I guess I wish I wish I had someone to say how do I actually do this? So what the hell is an ABN? Like, either I'm really going from scratch. Yeah, yeah. I like that on social media. Like if I see if I see something, I think only 61 day. One of you think is like, how did you do that? I want to do that. Literally, my son's asleep in my arms, and I'm sitting there, whether it's two hours, however long he's having a nap, he won't move from my arms. I'll sit there on camera and just have a play, you know, and it's not perfect, but I'm just Oh, this looks good. I'm trying to do everything free, right? Like, I'm sure I could pay for extra or I could pay someone to do it for me, but I'm trying to do it all myself. I'm trying to do it as cheaply and freely as possible. So I'll just have a play. And if it looks alright, if I feel happy with it, then I'll post it. And yeah, I like I said, I wish I had someone just I just use this template or make my life a bit easier. But yeah, it's just figuring it out as I go. And if I'm playing while he's asleep, then I might learn something, or I might learn how not to do. I'm still learning either way. Really? Yeah. No, I love that. I think that's, that's awesome. I part of my experience of not wearing what people thought, I basically just jumped in and did it, because I had all my software from singing. So and I love editing. So there's that. But then same thing, like the things that you spent time on beforehand. I literally just did it by the seat of my pants, because I'm like, I really want to do this. And I'm going to do it right now. Yeah, so it's like, it can work either way you can make it work, however, it suits your personality. And I think for myself, I had to justify that, okay, if I want this to be real, then I have to know what I'm doing. And I have to do it. Like I have to put all the pieces together in the right order and do it slowly so that I can justify that this is going to be a valid thing. Not that I'm just I don't know, I mean, going to identity. I know this is such a stereotype. But you know, the whole the stereotype of Oh, you're just a mum, and you're working on a passion project while you're on maternity leave. I didn't want it to be just that I wanted to work against that narrative that, Oh, I get to, you know, play around with this passion project while my husband works a nine to five to financially support me so that I can work on this passion project. I really wanted to work against that narrative. And I wanted to be against that stereotype. And I wanted to be able to monetize and make it legit and real, not just something I'm slapping to get. I don't know, I wanted to be able to work against the stereotype and contribute to the family. I mean, I haven't done that yet. You know, not I haven't really challenged the stereotype, but in a way as well, sorry. You've mentioned on them the question she like the values we have as a society, on art and on creativity. And that narrative works against it. Right. Like we so I wanted to work against that stereotype. But I guess in doing so I'm just perpetuating the stereotype that creativity or women's work just doesn't matter unless it brings in money, you know? Yeah. And I think it is safe to say we just don't value art in society, which is ironic because we, we consume so much of it, whether it's art, whether it's listening to podcasts, or music, or watching movies, TV shows, even the design that goes into advertising, we consume so much of it, and yet we don't value the work behind it. Because it doesn't pay the bills. We are in a capitalist society unless they you know, we value competition, we value activities that can be monetized. But because it doesn't pay the bills, even I don't see myself as a creative person. Like I said, because I'm not really I'm not a real Podcast. I'm not a real writer, because that avenue of work is not bringing in money for me. At this point in time. As much as you know, somebody wants to sponsor me, I'll take it. Meaning to mean on the list and I'm doing it because it feels right. And I will go back to my job next month. But my nine to five job I should say, but I'm still going to be doing this and I've told my husband this is still a priority for me around mothering around my nine to five. Being able to share these stories and tell stories and advocate and educate about maternal mental health is something I hope to be doing. For the rest of my life. I will advocate for more mother and baby psychiatric hospitals. I think to the day I die because I don't think a lot unless something else happens in my life and that becomes the focus of my attention. That's my passion. You know, and I want I want to keep doing that. And I don't think if I stopped doing that, I don't think I'd be living authentically. As much as it doesn't bring in the bills. You know, I don't see it as real or important or valuable. Because it's not seen that way by other people because it's not bringing in money. And that's that's just what Yeah, so I'm yeah, I'm in this weird space of you know, not wanting to be the stereotypical mom on maternity leave just doing a passion project while hobbies at nine to five and then. But yeah, I'm, I guess in a way I'm perpetuating that because I'm because it's not bringing in money. I'm. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a minefield. Bullshit. Yeah, it's a frustrating one, that it's something that I've gotten more and more annoyed about. More I talk to people, and I've particularly on I've told this story a million times. So I'm sorry, if you've already heard this story. The, during the lockdown. And I say that I didn't really suffer too much. I wasn't like Melbourne was like, you know, the most lockdown city in the world or something. But we, we saw the sport continue. Yeah. All these these these AFL football as we're moving around the country continuing to play sport, and then money and for all the the TV companies with the right so you know, that was really important, apparently. So they kept going. But you know, all of the art stopped all of the gigs, all of the music, all that stuff. And it really annoyed me because like you said, we consume so much art and the the result of creativity of people. We're all sitting on our asses watching Netflix. I mean, who do you think made that? You know, like, it just really annoyed me. But that's how society views art and creativity. And like, ironically, to get through the lockdown, a lot of us turned to not necessarily creating but consuming at all. Yeah, like schools, like teachers would just say, Look, don't don't do all this maths homework, go paint a picture, go read a book, go do something creative and meaningful. And that was therapeutic. And we turned to that in those times when it was hard. And we know the value of it, we know how valuable it is on paper for our own therapy for our own meaningfulness for our own values and purpose. We know how valuable it is. But because there's not that monetary benefit, we don't value it as a society. So once locked down lifts, okay, we can all go back to normal and West, we're not going to prioritize art as therapy, or we're not going to, you know, look after our creative, you know, ourselves, there's so many different parts of ourselves that are practical self, our physical self, our creative stuff, when we're going to prioritize that part of ourselves. Because we just need to resume our, you know, nine to five activities, we need to contribute to the economy. Like, that's all that's seen as important. And I believe me, I understand why we have to go into lockdown to protect all of us, you know, I get it. It's still just, it's upsetting that there was some things that were prioritized over others. And you know, you do see society through a clear lens when you are in those situations where you see what we value. And ironically, we do value because that's what we were consuming. Yeah. That's not what society or our economy per se values. Because it's not got $1 attached to really, yeah, really frustrates me when you were growing up your mum, what sort of sort of role modeling did you get from your mom in terms of what a mother could look like? I suppose. I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up my grandmother here as well because I was very largely raised by my grandma. So my grandparents migrated from Italy in their 20s, I guess, they set up shop, they had kids. So in terms of mothering, from my grandmother's point of view, mothering was her whole life. Yeah. You know, you did everything for your children. You cooked for them, you cleaned for them. That was your Go. And I think as well, having that migrant background, you know, you do that for your kids so that they can go and succeed. So I guess mothering was her identity, or being a domestic worker, I guess, was the identity, that was her only role in life. But that's also a cultural thing, you know. And then, from my mother's perspective, my mother, you know, did go study and become that career woman. Because I guess, and I mean, maybe this is just my interpretation of it. But growing up with the migrant family, and that expectation that you have to do something with your life, they didn't suffer, they didn't sacrifice all of this for you to just not do it, you know, you want to succeed, you want to be good at what you're doing. And my mom was an excellent career woman. And I guess, as a mother was, I had those two extremes I had Korean woman and then I had the domestic and I'm, I guess, I don't know, where I see myself. Like I said, I'm trying to find that middle ground. That's not to say my mother wasn't mothering, or that my grandmother didn't have a job because she did have a job at some point. But in terms of the priorities, my own mother then carried the, I think, again, this is just my interpretation she carried that maybe the migrant mentality of you need to do everything for your children, my mother just did it in the sense of providing financially. Yeah, you know, it's you, she wanted me to go to a good school and to study and to work, you know, in order to do that it wasn't to stay at home, it was to go out and work and work her ass off, to be able to put me into private school or put, you know, just have that bit of life or have provide things that maybe she didn't have, you know, it's it's that cycle. And I don't know if it's a, I don't know, if it's a cultural thing, or a migrant thing, I don't know. But yeah, in terms of motherhood, I guess I had both examples of wanting to do everything for your child, but either way, whether it was through the home or through work, it was doing everything for your children, that was nice for you. And, yeah, I guess that that's something I'm trying to navigate, you know, I'm, I can genuinely say, I'm sorry, to my son, I'm not the mother, that's gonna do everything for him. You know, whether that's a good or bad thing I don't, I know that if I go down that road, that pressure will eat at me, I will not be an authentic person, and I will not be a healthy person. Because you know, even before I became a mother, you know, wanting to emulate that and have a career and push myself to my extremes. That's when the mental illness creeps in. Right? So I'm trying to find this balance between wanting to be the best mom I can for my son versus not sacrificing my sanity, or my passions, or my my soul. You know, I want to find that balance where, yes, my son is important. And I want him to feel important, and that I will do anything for him. But not at the cost of I don't know, I don't want to work until nine o'clock at night, or I don't want to just focus on the housework all day, every day. Like I want to find that balance. You're and I don't know what that looks like. I'm I'm figuring that out as I go. But yeah, yeah, I guess not. Motherhood was modeled like that. There was no creativity. There wasn't and, yeah, but that's okay. That was their experience. And that's what they did to survive. And, you know, obviously, I respect the work that they did, and how hard they worked for their children. You know, that's, that's the cultural attitude that I do want to take, I want my son to know, I worked hard so that he can have a roof of recital that, you know, we can then go out and play it, but I want also to enjoy the time with him. And not? Yeah, I don't know, I think this was probably the question that I struggled the most trying to think about. From your navigate that, do you think also in that you're, you're in context of working hard, is that working, and I feel like this, I feel like this for myself. So you may or may not feel like working hard on your own mental wellness, so you can be there for your child and you can meet their needs, in a way that you're happy with. And that, you know, is good for your child. I mean, that's a big priority for me. And it always has been before I became a mother, you know, with my prior experiences of mental health, I took my mental health very seriously. You know, I had been in therapy, probably since I was 16. Like just being able to work through that stuff. And I'd always said I didn't want to take it into motherhood. I didn't want my son to bear that burden. You Hmm. So I really focused on the skills and the therapy and the healing during my 20s. But I guess that kind of worked in a backwards way for me because it became that fixation. Like I said, at the start, pregnancy, I was consumed with planning for postpartum. And a big part of that was that first of all, I didn't want mental illness to get in the way of the earth or my parenting. But I also didn't want it to be something that my son inherited, I guess, by having that fixation it inevitably. Yeah, it worked against me, because I was, I was mentally ill. And I just didn't see it. I was so focused on postpartum that I just, I was really in denial about what I was going through through pregnancy. And, you know, it wasn't until I got to postpartum that I had that acute crisis episode that I was, you know, admitted to hospital that I was doing the best I could. And there's no such thing as 100% perfectly healed or recovered as much as I would like to think that or, as much as I held on to that belief that I could be cured and would never ever impact my son. I know now that healing, being imperfect, but still working on my healing is the best thing I can do for myself. It is absolutely best thing I can do for him in that working on myself acknowledging my own bullshit, being self aware, that is the best thing I can do for him not being perfect, like that perfectionism, or holding on to being perfect or cured or happy all the time would actually be more damaging to him. Then a mother who acknowledges her own shit, and is trying to work on it and apologizes. And like, that's what's gonna help him in the long run. Yeah. Yeah. And like, that's always been a priority, clearly, but now I'm approaching it from a different perspective. Yeah, no, I think like my eldest son's 14, and has his own issues with mental health. And I think it's really important to role model as a parent, that, you know, things are really hard. But if you're, if you put in the work, and you utilize the tools around you, and the things that you have access to, then that's really it is really important to it is you can't just sweep it under the rug, and you can't think everything's going to be fine. It's like you, you have to do the work. And it's as shitty as it is. And as horrible as it is. And he's had times where he's, he's hidden particular things from me, because he was like, Oh, I know, if I told you, I would have had to go back and talk to, like his counselor, he just didn't want to have to start the whole cycle. Again, it's like, this is what it is, it'll always be this, there'll be times in your life, where it will you rise up again, and you'll have to address it. You know, and I know, I've had times where I've finally found it very difficult to hide, you know, emotions, or episodes or things that I'm going through. And I sort of feel bad for that, because I sort of think my kids shouldn't have to bear the burden of, of, of my illness. At the same time, I sort of think this is our reality. And this is what would have happened, you know, 50 6070 years ago, everything was hidden. And that's probably why we have these issues with stigma and, and not understanding because it was so hidden away. So yeah, there's a balance there that I struggle with at times, but I think it is important that people know, and your kids know, maybe not to see it in all its glory. But you know, it's finding that balance between, you know, wanting to show, okay, this is, this is what it is, this is the reality versus making it their problem to solve, you know, we definitely don't want to do that. But we don't want to pretend that these things don't exist. But, you know, you're modeling to your son that if this does happen, you know, he knows where to turn, you are a safe place to turn to he will and He knows that you will understand. And you know, he's obviously seen you work on your mental health, so he knows, okay, I can do it too. And that, that is the best thing you can give to your kids. Honestly, it really is. And you know, it's not perfect, or it's not ideal, but you're not making it your son's problem. But you're showing him that it's okay to have mental ill health and that it's okay to talk about mental health and that we should be doing that. That's the only shot I'll ever say in my life is that we should be talking about mental health. Yes. Should be more of it. Yes. Yeah. And I think like, teenage teenage years, you know, through Tori, ously difficult to navigate regardless of any Other issues you've got. So it's like a no just talking, keeping the communication. Absolutely any kid will benefit from skills to help their emotional and mental health, even if they haven't, no mental illness, any of those skills are so valuable to any teenager because yeah, it's that hormonal thing. We want to sit there and say, Oh, it all has a reason. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just our hormones go in flux. And that's what had happened to me as a kid. I had, you know, the, the anxiety as you know, as a child, but then when you get to your teenage years, hormones really kick in. And if he takes it to another level, you know, and it's all that's when, you know, the OCD and things really set in all those intrusive thoughts. You can't really ignore them anymore. Yeah. And it can be such a scary time because you're dealing with physical changes to your body, and then, you know, emotional and then mental and it's like, what's going on? And who can you talk to? And all this sort of stuff comes up? It's just here. And then social media, I guess these days? Oh, yeah. I got out of AZ without having phones and technology back in the day. I mean, I, I don't understand. I mean, this is probably going off topic. But there is such an attitude in society that what teenagers go through isn't real, or it's not important. And but you know, you'll get over it. It's, you know, and that attitude is so damaging. Yeah, I don't get it. Like we so quick to the little kid. And yes, you know, they might have their heart broken for the first time. And it's, you know, yes, it's different to, you know, something else you might go through as an adult, but that doesn't make it any less. You know, it's important for them. And, yeah, time in their life. That is the biggest thing. That's all I can think about. To shut that down. Yeah, I really dislike that. That attitude that a lot of people have, and you see it a lot on social media that all teenage. But anyway, that's going off topic. But yeah, that's frustrating. Yeah. And that that will contribute to mental unwellness. So of course, and then you get some motherboard and you're not meant to complain, because everyone's a mother and everyone does it and blah, blah, blah, like either we if we can actually support our kids when they're going through that hard stuff as kids as teenagers. Just yeah, it might not prevent a mental health episode, but it might just make it less severe. might make it easier to get through might make it quicker for them to you know, overcome. I guess it Yeah. Anyway, I'm yeah. My first degree was actually originally in early childhood. Ah, right. Yep. So yeah, that was yeah, it's always been important to me to see kids to see teenagers as people as valid. They have emotions, and that's okay. They're not Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's, that's important. Yeah. And I'm sure there's a lot of moms listening that have, you know, children of different age. So, you know, it's good to share what you know, actually, speaking of this, I'm going off topic again. But my my, Alex, my 14 year old, the other day, I made a decision. That wasn't what we would have agreed with. And, and I said to my husband, we can't, we can't punish him too much for this because his brain physically hasn't evolved to the point where you can make decisions the same way we can. And I just thought, gee, we as a society, we've come a long way, because that's not how my parents would have traded. No, you should have known better. What were you thinking? Well, my frontal prefrontal cortex hasn't evolved yet. So. Yeah, and I mean, you know, we're trying to negotiate. I mean, our parents probably did the same. You know, it's either you, you treat us as kids all throughout, no, you're just a kid, you can't make a decision. Or, on the other extreme, you know, you want to be treated like an adult, why aren't you acting like an adult? You know, those two extremes that, you know, you're either treating them like a kid or you're expecting them to behave like an adult. We need to do better at treating them, or meeting them where they're at. Yeah, and I think we are getting better. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, there's so much science out there. Now, that tells us this stuff. Like the reason I it's in front of front of my mind. It's in your frontal lobe. Pardon. I was listening to the radio last night, and there was this, this. I don't know what they were talking about to start with. But then they got on to the brain and they said that your brain evolves or matures from the back to the front. Like it's that's what we know. And it's like, Oh, my God, no wonder I made foolish decisions as a teenager. Like it just it there. The science is there to back it, you know, and you know, it's you can't argue with that. I feel like You know, we've got all these other tools in these, this information at our disposal now to be able to treat, you know, people of different ages with appropriate, you know, responses, you know? And that's why I'm mixed. I'm excited to see the next generation grow up. Oh, yes, they'll have been parented very differently. And I'm actually looking for I'm hoping I'm hopeful for them that they don't know that things are better for them that they're easier for them. That's all you want for your kids you want. What's better for them either. Anyway? Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Can you just give me a sec? I've just heard a knock on my door. Oh, sure. Please. Come nice. Hello, Dolly. I'm going really good to come say hello. Yeah. This is Rebecca. You've said a little bit. Nice to meet you. degree. This is my little. Oh, he's a champ. He's so funny. He often does call in and say hello to people. Yes, shut the door. He's gone yeah. And thank you for this space, I think it's so important we talk about, you know, not just creativity, but as a mother, you know, being able to because that's, you know, that's the job being a mom, we're meant to do that. 100% of the time, and yet, where people? Yeah, so being able to talk about, you know, how we find that balance, or whether we can actually find that balance or how we do it, you know, being able to talk about that I think is so important, because there is still so much guilt, there is still so much shame. If you're, you know, I could be doing more, I should be doing more. But that person's doing that, why aren't I you know, and we beat ourselves up and at what cost? You know, so I got on you for doing this and encouraging all of us really to keep doing what feels right. Yeah, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or share and you did say about, you're heading back to work, but this isn't going to stop for you. This is a, this is your passion, and you're going to keep doing this, which is I want to I want to get to a point obviously, where I can phase out of, you know, the nine to five, and I can work on this, I guess full time and you know, get paid two. That would be the goal. And I mean, I've got my little it's like a mini vision board. I'd say like it's got all my plans. Like I want to write a book, you know, finally, one that's not crap. I want to Yeah, I want to keep working in this field, whatever that looks like, whether it's also pumping out workbooks, like coming from my background with journaling or storytelling and being able to you know, facilitate. Yes, it's not a cure and God I would never market it as a cure but okay, he's something that we can maybe work on that might it helped me hopefully it helps you a little bit to like that's the stuff I would love to be doing doing the podcast doing the social media stuff. Yeah, just those kind of digital work you know, he's some journaling prompts was that like something like, you know, I'd love to just phase out of the nine to five and be able to focus on this because I I love sharing these stories. You know, I I was really worried when I started podcasting and interviewing people but the more I'm doing it, the more I realize. Yeah, like as much it's it's sad and it's confronting, like just hearing those stories and knowing that someone out there is actually trusting me with their story with their vulnerable experience just means the world and I don't take that lightly. Yeah, and I want to be able to do that justice and I want to be able to help them, you know, be able to facilitate the sharing of that story because I know that's not easy. But also help out The people that they're not alone. So if I can somehow figure out a way to make this work, you know, make this an actual job, so to say, then I'll do it. And hopefully one day I'll see myself as a creative. I still see myself as that organized planner, because that's, that was so indoctrinated in me. It's what I did to function in this world, I guess up until this point. Maybe I'll just have to find a balance between the two parts of myself. But yeah, one day. I'm hoping that that'll be what I can do. I can work in order to facilitate that right. Now, good on you. I really hope you do. That would be so awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been so lovely to talk to you and to meet you. And to talk face to face. Yeah. And I mean, I saw your story submission for my podcast. I was like, When can I message her to say she can come on my plane? I feel like I have to go on yours first. Because we've been trying to organize it. Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'd love to share your story too. If you're comfortable. Absolutely. It'll be pleasure. I'd be honored to actually be Yeah, thank you. We can we can negotiate. That good audio. Thank you. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Dr Melanie Cooper Australian mixed media visual artist + art historian S1 Ep07 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Melanie Cooper is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide South Australia, and a mother of 2. Melanie combines painting + drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet, stitching and rug making techniques. In this episode we chat a lot about art, as Melanie’s expertise in the long 18th Century allows us to delve into the role and treatment of women artists during this era. We also discuss the importance of sharing our experiences as mothers, and the role of judgment in our current society – and how it got there. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression** Melanie website See the Queen Victoria yarn bomb here Shop art supplies that Melanie uses here Podcast instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Dr. Melanie Cooper. Melanie is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide, South Australia, and a mother of two. Melanie combines painting and drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet stitching and rug making techniques in her art. In this episode, we chat a lot about art history as Melanie's expertise in the long 18th century, allows us to delve into the role and treatment of artistic women during this era. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression. Thank you for coming on, it's an absolute pleasure to have you. And I'm excited about the different sorts of things that you might be able to share as your role as an art historian, but you're also a visual artist. So let's start with that. Why don't you tell us about your own art practice? My art practice is pretty diverse. I as with my other work as well, I kind of consider myself to be an interdisciplinary artist. So I'm primarily a painter. But I also work across textiles and drawing and, you know, just a lot of a lot of different things I've been making. For as long as I can remember, like, even as a child I was, I've always been making stuff. My work is very personal to me it's very, it's, I guess it's a way for me to articulate things that I find very difficult to communicate verbally or in written language. I'm just kind of really interested in my, I mean, of course, my own experience, but also the spaces in between thoughts and ideas and experience and memory, like, you know, the things that we can't see, I try really hard to not just document experience, and those kinds of things, but also to kind of try and make my own thoughts and feelings visible in some form. So it's kind of it's a way for me to reconcile a whole heap of thinking and a whole heap of experience, but in a way that's really tangible. And so in a lot of ways, it's all about the process. For me, the end, the end point is always a great thing, because people can actually see it, but it's kind of it feels like it's work that's never finished, because I need to keep going. And it's almost ritualistic in a way, I guess, because I'm kind of quite often repeating myself, like, for example, in textiles, I'm using lots of the same sort of stitches. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking and kind of integrating all of those ideas and thoughts and memories and, you know, and, and responses to place as well, I just kind of draw lots of connections from the outside world and sort of it kind of comes in, and then I sort of spit it back out into some sort of form. I don't I don't really, it's a really, really hard thing to explain. Like, it's just it makes sense to me anyway. And hopefully, when people when people will look at it, hopefully they kind of, you know, bring their own ideas to it as well their own responses, and there's no right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to deliver a precise message. You know, people don't have to have a perfect takeaway from it, as long as they kind of, you know, respond to it in some way. I'm happy. So. And that is the great thing about I think, too, in any of its forms that people will take what they need from I suppose in their own interpretation of what, what they're in their life or what they're going through or anything like that. So you're working with textiles, Melanie, what kind of materials are you working with? So with the with my textiles, this is a little bit confusing for people sometimes I consider that to be part of my painting practice. So I work with textiles in the same way that I mean, I know it's a different material. But the way that I you approach that practice is the same way that I approach my painting with the same ideas and the same motivations and the same kinds of thinking. But I use knitting and crochet. And I also use traditional rug making techniques and just a little bit of stitching as well, but predominantly things like punching, which is punching through a hashing surface with a needle and knitting and crocheting pieces of fabric that I sort of manipulate and stitch down and explore with that kind of material material. Process is a really good way For me to sort of like think through a whole heap of stuff, and I kind of figure it out as I go, I'm very intuitive, I don't really sort of sit down and draw up a plan or anything, I kind of work it out as I go. And product, of course, it's always really important, you know, you, you do want people to engage with something that you're really proud of. And it needs to be aesthetically appealing in some way. Whether whether that's a really positive thing, or you know, something that's a bit more challenging for people, that's cool. But it really is, like, the the, for me the whole, it's the process, you know, it's the end product is really, really important, of course, but the process? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know that I would do it. If it wasn't for the process, you know, me like, I'm not just making stuff to decorate things. We thought we've got enough decoration. It's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's something that I still need to think about putting into words, because I find it really, really difficult. Yeah, it's kind of the process of experimentation and exploring, and just finding, finding out how far you can push something is really fun and really interesting as well. Yes, I like new techniques and, and working with things in different ways. And that sort of Absolutely. Tell me about your children. So I'm very fortunate to have a son who's almost 18, and a daughter, who is almost 11. So they're quite far apart in age. But they're just incredible. Little humans, you know, with very different different needs at the moment. They're both still at school, obviously. And, you know, they're both doing their own thing. And, you know, I'm, yeah, they're both. They're both very strong personalities. And of course, that comes with its own challenges sometimes, but I'm actually really proud of the relationship that I have with them. Both. Were really good mates. So I think, yeah, I love my children very dearly as all mothers do, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You say this look seven years between your toy? I've got seven years between my two. Yeah. Some people think, wow, that's huge. And in some ways it is. But in some ways, it's not. Either. It's a funny thing is, Oh, yeah. And it's, I think, I'll be interested to see how they grow as they get older, because my oldest is 12, or 13. And my little ones about to turn six. So at the moment, they have times when they absolutely cannot stand each other. But I think as they get older, and dig becomes out of that little little person stage. They might, I mean, they get on great, don't get me wrong, but things might not be quite as explosive. Do you know, honestly, things can be quite explosive with my kids. And like, that's why I say, you know, they're both very strong personalities. They're both, they're both very, very clever. And they know how to test each other. And they do they, they do get explosive. But the funny thing is as intense as that is, sometimes they also have this really intense love for each other. It's and it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll just walk into a room and I'm like, oh my god, you guys are having a hug right now. What's going on? Is everything okay? Yes, fine. Mom is totally fine. You're sure? Yeah. And it's also because I think they're very different places in their own development. Like they have very, very different needs. Like, you know, Seth, my son, he, at the moment, he just really needs his own space. Sometimes he needs his own privacy and all those sorts of things. Like he's merely an adult. And his little sister likes to kind of walk into his room unannounced and jeans and he's just like, oh, my god, get out. And you know, he's never like, he's just playing a game or something. It's not anything major, but he's just like, leave me alone. And she Yeah, of course, you know, sometimes she just wants to be around her big brother. But and he does it to her too, though. Sometimes she'll be quiet. You know, she'll be sitting on the couch or in her room doing her own thing. And he'll come in and he'll be like, all over and, you know, just in the mood for a joke. And she's like, Oh, no. Yeah, and it all kind of kicks off and I have to Yeah, yeah. It's also really lovely though, when you find them playing, like, you know, when they they take their own initiative to get the ball guy outside and kick her around the backyard together, that kind of stuffs really lovely. Yes. Something good is here. So you said before you've been creating you pretty much your whole life. Has that sort of changed then as you had your children as they came into Your Life, we starting to find that challenge the balance between you and your role as a mother. In different times of my life, definitely. So I can't, I mean, there's a few different things I could say about this sort of stuff. Like, you know, before having kids, I really believed that I needed one full solid day to get something done, you know, I always had this kind of idea that you had to have a full day. And if you didn't have that full day, nine to five kind of idea, whatever those hours were, it really like there's no point. But I've since learned, especially with my second, with Scarlett half an hour, you can actually achieve so much in half an hour. Because sometimes that's all you get. And I mean, it kind of fluctuates, or depending on what's going on with them and where you are, in state, like the stage of their life and stuff. There's been times where I found it incredibly difficult. Like, with my painting practice, for example, I like when I had my son, Seth, I found that really difficult to get back into for a while because I had quite bad postnatal depression. So that kind of was a bit of a block for me for a while. But then after a period of time, I kind of learned when I was sort of working through that I was drawing and things but I kind of went back to knitting, which is something that I've kind of always been doing since I was like about five, but then I sort of realized, you know, this is a really portable medium, and I can just pick it up and put it down, I don't have to go out and studio. So I think that's where it kind of really started becoming this thing that I've incorporated into my practice. And over time, I kind of just kept pushing it more and developing it more. And that's so that's always been there. Like I'm always, you know, carrying around knitting or crochet because it is so portable, and I can't sit on the couch and not do things. So if I have to sit on the couch and nurse a baby or rock a baby to sleep, you know. So like there's, it's there's different ways that you can still be creative, without having to go out into the studio without having to have an entire day. And, you know, try and figure out all the other logistics around that. So I've just, I think I've always sort of looked for ways that I can still fit stuff in. And, you know, like, when they're not sleeping and stuff, that's really good thinking time. So you can use that time in the middle of the night to kind of think about what do I need to do tomorrow, and you start planning and organizing your thoughts. So that when you do have that time, you can just jump straight in, he's not kind of lost, not knowing where to go, what direction to take, or what needs to be done, you can just sort of like jump in and be productive. And I think that's that kind of motivates you and gives you the energy to keep going as well. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that mother who doesn't like I don't want to say adversity, but you know, just the challenges sometimes that you face and the things that you kind of find yourself up against, that you weren't prepared for. I think that's really taught me that yeah, actually, I'm really good at improvising. And, and that's really fun in itself too. Because sometimes you kind of you end up with outcomes you couldn't predict or better outcomes than if you planned and organized everything completely perfectly and down to the last minute. Like, sometimes you just kind of go, you know, do things by the seat of your pants, and you get up the other side of you think, wow, that's actually really great. And that could lead to something else. You know, like, never in a million years would I like when I was painting in art school, I didn't think that I would be you know, knitting in my actual painting practice. I kind of thought that's the thing that I do when I watch TV. And you know, it's not really part of my, my serious art career. But now it definitely is. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun. I think you've learned so much from being a mom. Yeah. And having to having to restructure your own thinking and just make things happen. You know, not just sit around waiting for the time, but actually just making that time you have to, otherwise it will never happen. Yeah, the thing for me as well, like, it's almost like a it's a compulsion for me to make like, it always has been even as a kid like, I just always have to make something and it doesn't always have to be like a big finished painting. Sometimes it is just, you know, something with a lump of air dry clay or, you know, a drawing in the mud out in the backyard or something like, I've just always had to do something. And yeah, it's a it's a compulsion, I think. But it's also I was thinking about this the other day, I think it's also about making a space for yourself, like making art or even just making and staff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself, even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important, as an adult, when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time or it becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an adult. Absolutely. It's like, mental health, you know, and it's, and it's so connected with looking Yeah, looking after yourself. And so, for me, it's very much part of my identity. I think, like, it's, it's not like, the job, the great job that I've got that I go to, and I'll retire from one day, so something that I think is always has always been a part of who I am. Definitely isn't. Yeah, it's one day, you just get to hang it up and go, right i that's finished now. I'm retired. What do I do? Exactly? Exactly. Yes. It's, sometimes it would be nice to sort of like bundle it up and pack it away. But it's no, that's not an option. I don't think. Wanted to ask you just you talked about your painting, how you never thought that your meeting would become part of you the way I think you said you serious art practice? How did how did it become part? Did you one day just decide to combine it like how did it physically happen? Um, it's a very, it's a very good question. So when I was in art school, I, I realized that I detested oil painting, and I. And so I couldn't do live painting anymore. And I wasn't really interested in that anyway. And so I dropped out of that subject. And I had to do another elective and sort of make that as like a, not just an elective subject, but like a major subject, and it was rug making. And I was like, Wow, this sounds really cool. And it's using wool. Awesome, I'll do that. So I learned some techniques. And, you know, just kind of played with that for a bit and then put it away. And when I thought, I just kind of, I kind of just stuffed around with it a bit and picked it up, put it down, and just put it played with those ideas for a while. And I kind of experimented without really taking it very seriously. And then, you know, fast forward a couple of years, I became a member of a studio here in Adelaide called voting booth studios. And I shared that space with several other artists. And at the time, I think there was 12 artists, but I had brought all my things from my old studio into the space and was unpacking stuff and messing around with things and just having a look at what I had. And one of the things that I had was a half finished, rogue or wallhanging, I wasn't really sure what to call it at the time. I pulled it out as looking at it. And one of my friends looked at it and said, Oh, what's this, and I was just this thing that I've just been playing with. And he's kind of like, oh, that's, that's kind of really cool. Maybe you should think about finishing it. I was really, okay. And, you know, I just wasn't at that time, I just wasn't really sure what I was doing. Because, you know, a whole heap of other stuff had just happened. And I was coming through a difficult place. But I just kind of thought, you know, this is an easy thing to pick up and just go on with, I'll maybe I'll figure out what I'm doing next. So I just kind of kept working on this thing. And then it became a finished piece. And I was like, wow. And there was just this one little engineer alpha, I don't really know what to do on this end bit. And I was mucking around with some knitting at home. And I just kind of something told me or compelled me to put that piece of knitted fabric onto the rug, and just see what it looks like. And so I was just like, wow, this is another way of combining surfaces and textures and different techniques, and actually really kind of like what's happening. And so that's what I started doing there. I sort of started messing around with it. And I was really excited by what I had discovered. And so I just kind of thought, what can I do next. And so I started making lengths of knitted fabric and started stuffing about with it in the next pieces and just kind of exploded from there. And I kind of realized, well, I can actually use knitting in the same way that I do. You know, brush strokes and different ways of applying paint, I can actually just make the paint and manipulate it and stitch it down or do something with it. And yeah, the more I do it, the more I do the more ideas or come up with and sometimes my head is just like swimming with ideas. I get really anxious because I don't know if I'm gonna get time to do it all because, you know, that's the exciting thing about knitting, sewing, and especially crochet too. It's only a couple of stitches. But the different ways that you can combine those stitches with different materials and different ways of like different combinations, you end up with so many different kinds of results. So it's exciting. And yeah, it just kind of it just kind of unraveled. And, like a very natural process. It just kind of kept expanding. From there. Yeah, really, that's really awesome story. And I think that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm really grateful for being in that studio at that time. Because, you know, if it hadn't have been for someone walking past and looking at and going, yeah, that's pretty cool. Maybe you should see what happens if you finish it. Like just that little bit of encouragement from a friend, it was like, Yeah, okay, maybe this is worth thinking about. And, you know, the same friend was really amazing, too. I credit him with encouraging me when I had my exhibition, my first solo after that, will not my first solo but my first solo for a number of years, he sort of said to me, you know, the back is the back of that piece is really cool. Maybe you should think about hanging it so people can see the back as well. And that's, that was another really important part of developing my practice as well. He sounds like a pretty useful bloke to have around. I think, yeah, he's he's very generous person. And I think that's also one of the virtues and one of the great advantages of being in a studio with other people working around you. Because sometimes, you can give each other that sort of feedback, or, you know, just the comment of someone walking past is enough to make you think twice about, yeah, actually, maybe I won't throw that in the bin, you know, maybe that is worth spending some more time on. And that's been that's been incredibly valuable to me. So I'm very, I'll always be grateful for that. So you've done also yarn bombing, create, whatever, you're gonna make your knitting or crocheting, and then you go and put it out on structures in the town, or in the city? Yes, yes, I have. And I've had a lot of fun doing that, with a group of friends. We haven't done anything for a while, that tried to make something happen just after COVID. But it kind of fell through. That's a whole other story. But yeah, that's something that I got an enormous kick out of, I have to say, because it's different. It's a bit different now. But originally, the idea was, you make something and you attach it to a public structure somewhere, but you have to do it without being caught and without anyone seeing you because it's kind of illegal. So it's kind of like, yeah, hardcore ladies hit the town. You know, so much fun. The first time the first tag I ever did was just like, this crochet length of bright blue fabric, kind of like a scarf. And I went down one of the alleyways, just for Rundle Street, and my heart was beating. So it's in the middle of the day, and I was like, whipped it on around this pole, stitching it as fast as I could. And my heart was beating so loud, it was roaring you might use skipped off down the street afterwards on such a high. It was just, it was just this simple little band of blue, but it was like yes, I have done this really cool. Outlaw thing. Yeah, that was enormously fun. And then after that, we're just, you know, I kind of need some bow ties, and I attach these bow ties on to, you know, sculptures of people's heads and stuff down North terrorists and things and in the Botanic Gardens. But the really the really cool thing was, many years ago, I can't remember exactly what year it was. But there was this sort of like a street art festival thing that was happening. A former student of mine, Peter Drew, who's now done lots of lots and lots of other things. He was organizing groups of people to paint and, you know, sort of decorate, mini skips. And so I can't I can't remember exactly where I found out about it. I think it might have been a Facebook page or something like that. There was an idea to cover it with knitting like the st. yarn bombing stuff. So I kind of just went on my own. I had no idea I didn't had I didn't know anyone who was going to this thing. I just happened to meet this bunch of gorgeous women. Very different ages, very different backgrounds, and they're all just making these squares to cover this dumpster. It was so much fun and we just got along so well and so we kind of over a period of time. found ourselves in a group that we decided to call a play on the sly. It was enormous fun. We've done so many projects we did. You know, there was a festival coId called, boy you street art festival. There was a whole exhibition in the Festival Theatre. There are a couple of bank sees and other bits and pieces in there and we were asked to cover, I think are called the Mellie tree poles outside. That's like an installation. I'm not sure if it's still there. But we covered these big long poles with, you know, different lengths of fabric and attached insects and flowers and stuff to it. That was so much fun. But one of my favorite projects was a nano nano reckless Julie Collins and I went made a dress for the statue of Queen Victoria. And we had it installed by the Adelaide City Council at like, two o'clock in the morning. They had, they had cherry pickers and council workers attaching this big knitted dress with cable ties to the statue of Queen Victoria. And it was it was so much fun. And it was part like it was around Christmas time. So it was when the whole square was decorated with different things. And just going along, to see that in the middle of the day. And seeing all these people walking past it stopping looking and taking photos of this thing that you'd made. It was just so much fun, because, you know, you're just sort of like sitting there watching everybody else getting so much joy out of this thing that we just did. Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that. We've done stuff for Matthew Flinders and Douglas Mawson, one of my friends met him at balaclava. We've done things for the Robert Burns statue at the front of the State Library. Yeah, things like that. There's been lots of stuff that the group has done, and it's just been wonderful. Yes, we haven't doing that. We're still within the group doing stuff now. Um, well, we were going to do a project for Christmas last year, back in November. And I didn't know how to say in a short way, because I don't want to sort of I don't want to sound negative. But we were asked to do a project. And then the street that we were asked to do it on. People on the the people in the street like the business owners decided no, we don't want that. And that was really, that was really sad. And I found that really upsetting because for some of the people in the group that hadn't actually been able to work on anything, as a group or for themselves for a long time, there was a one mom in there, I know that she was, you know, it was really important to her to get together and to do this thing, because she hadn't done anything for herself for a really long time. And so all of a sudden, we had this thing that was really exciting. And we were we were so excited about getting back together and doing something and it was just taken away because of mismanagement and miscommunication. You know, like the person who was organizing the thing and had asked us to do it hadn't spoken to the business owners properly. So all of a sudden, she just sort of like sent me an email one day and said, You know what, sorry, they just don't want you here anymore. And it was devastating. Actually. It was really, it was really sad. Like, I was fine with it, because I had my own stuff to go with. But as I was saying some of some of the group members hadn't hadn't been doing their own thing for a long time. And it was very important to them that we were doing it. And yeah, all of a sudden, it just wasn't there. So yeah, we do we need to get back together and do something because I think, you know, we just had so much fun together. There's no reason that we haven't done anything for a while. I think it's just like the whole COVID thing and people being busy and life getting in the way. So I think yeah, we just we just need to do it. We just, we just really need to Yeah, you know, put a date in the diary and get together and do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much fun. And we do we all work together so well. We just have very different lives in very different directions. And I think that's that's the only thing that kind of makes it a bit tricky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking about when you put your pieces up, and then you see people their reaction to that. I get so much joy and I it almost it always makes me feel like a little child even reminds me of like Easter time when when I was a kid and you'd be looking for your Easter eggs and you find them hidden in the garden and that amazing feeling of finding things. That's how I feel when I see people's creations all around the place. I just love it. It's such a beautiful I love it too, because you, I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, it is that generosity and that sharing and the joy. But it's also like, it kind of feels a little bit naughty or a little bit not naughty, but like a little bit. You know, people, people being creative outside of the prescribed conventional spaces of institutions and galleries and high end things, it's kind of making things accessible. And it's also like the random accidental thing of finding stuff as well as it's kind of, you know, I'm gonna make this thing and I'm going to put it out there because I can, I'm not going to ask anybody's permission to do it, not going to apply to do it. I'm just going to do it. And I love I love that. It's so it's so much fun. And it's, you know, of course, it's always with the best intentions, but it's also a little bit, you know, it's very empowering actually think it's really empowering. I know it is for me. Yeah, I think it's incredibly generous to because you're not, you're not creating it with any sort of expectation of, I mean, you aren't getting something back. But like, you know, it's not a monetary gain, you're doing it because you love it. And because you know, you're going to bring joy to paper, I think that's just beautiful. I wanted to utilize your expertise as an art historian throughout this discussion, could you just let us know first what the era or the period that you are really drawn to with your art history. So my area of expertise is the 18th century. So that's, that's what I know most, the deepest part of my knowledge and research has always has been the 18th century. Insane. I'm really fascinated and have a really solid understanding of the 20th century as well, because I've studied that in depth too. But also, of course, I'm interested in contemporary art, art of the art that is being made now and the very recent past to and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think researchers, like artists, they develop their interests and their ideas in lots of different directions at the moment and kind of looking more things like iconoclasm as well, which kind of stretches across all periods really iconoclasm for for those who don't know, is the destruction or accidental or intentional of artworks, or buildings and monuments and things like that, too. Yeah. So what drew you to that? It's the 1700s, isn't it? If it's the 18th century, so how it works? Yeah. No, that's cool. And to make things even more confusing, people have different definitions around time periods as well, that so for, for the 18th century, we used to say, oh, you know, that's 1700 to 1800. But the truth is, most people now call it like, referred to that period as the long 18th century. So it's sort of like, T straddles the late 70s, sort of like 1685 1690, through to about 1820. And people kind of debate those precise use, but it does kind of overlap, centuries, either side is 70. Is that because of the work? Was it was the era of that art in that time? Or is that just how historians talk about time periods? It's more around world events and things like that as well. It's not it's not a facade. I mean, the hard thing with art history, whatever period you're looking at, it's, we kind of like to think in nice sort of compartmentalized boxes with nice start and finish points. But the truth is, is that things just overlap. And, and there's not like one linear narrative or style or thing that's happening. There's lots of different things that are happening all at the same time. And we're only really starting to do a better job at recognizing that now. There's multiple histories, and multiple styles and things happening all at the same time. So really history. It's not like this one linear thing. It's like a big spiderweb of, you know, and it's really messy. And that's, that's the thing that makes it really interesting and dynamic, but we're not very good at thinking about things that way. We insist on putting things in nice, neat little categories and everything has to have a neat timeframe. Like it can't be like 1521 to 1673 because that just doesn't feel neat and contained for us. We have this need to contain things, which is crazy because that's not how time Her explore life. I must point out and acknowledge though that that's a very Western way of thinking, like, I'm sure like, I don't have the understanding to talk about this at length, but you know, other cultures and other strange other philosophies or other systems of doing things, think about things in very different ways. So what I'm referring to is, it's a Western perspective. It's not, it doesn't account for everybody, for sure. So within that time period, that long 18th century, what, what drew you to that era, I suppose, like how, why, why that period for you? This goes back to art school. My practice is very, very different to the 18th century, I my my own art practice is radically different. But the reason I was drawn to that is because when we went to when I was in art school, we had to do art history and theory. And we had this lecture in first year, who was very handsome and very charismatic. And everybody hung on every word, he said. And so we went to every lecture thinking, these lectures are amazing, and they're brilliant. And I was one of the fans. I thought he was wonderful. But there was one subject that he did. And it was kind of, I think it was called, like the history of Western art, or something like this. And he started with the caves of Lascaux. And he kind of worked his way through lecture, lecture, the lecture going through the history of Western art. And I remember this one day, he, I can't remember the name of the lecture, but he did the 18th century in one slide. Like I just like, I just have to pause there, because it still blows my mind. It totally blew me away, like, you'd gone. You know, one lecture might have been on surrealism and data, like an entire one hour lecture on surrealism and data, which is a movement in 19, the 1920s, like, you know, a response to the wars and things quite, it's quite a complex movement. But the 18th century, he kind of did this thing where he put up an image by a painter called fraggin, ah, he did a painting called the swing, a put this, this slide up, and I was fresh out of arts, I mean, fresh out of high school, too. So I was very young, I really didn't know very much. And he just put this slide up, and everyone erupted into laughter. And he said, this is like, the 18th century chocolate box fluff and nonsense. That's it. See later, let's jump into the 19th century. And I was just kind of like, I remember sitting there thinking, Why does everybody think this is funny? And why does he just wipe out an entire century with one slide, like, to me, I was like, I had no interest in painting that way, I had no interest in that style from my own work at all. But looking at that painting, I thought, wow, this is actually really, really skilled work. It's really complex. There's all these things happening in that picture. I don't understand what it is. But there's a lot more to this thing. I was just intrigued, absolutely intrigued. And then, you know, I also saw films like Amadeus, and, you know, all the all the period movies and stuff, and I just kind of developed this love for, you know, the 18th and 19th centuries. And then, when I went to study art history, I did four subjects and kept going and, you know, the my love for the 18th century grew. And I was kind of when I came to do my masters. I was like, do I do my Masters on Australian abstraction? Or do I do it on the 18th century, and then I went 18th century because I feel like I know and understand a lot about abstraction, but don't really understand the 18th century enough. So that's what took me that way. And I think it's also because images of that period of very complex nerve, very rich and iconography, which is, you know, the study of signs and symbols to kind of untangle what a pitcher is telling us. And I think that kind of tapped into my love for detective novels, and Agatha Christie and solving the clues. So I think that's what drew me in the most was just, you know, again, fun, lots of fun. And, you know, that period is fascinating, because, so, so much is happening in a very, very short timeframe. When you think about it, so much stuff for life is radically changing. And we've, we've inherited so much of that, you know, bad things as well as good things in within that period of time. There were lots of different movements, or was it the same? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll just very, very quickly tell you that the difference between the 20th century In the age of the long, 18th century, the long 18th century is kind of broken up into three major styles you could argue maybe for. But the 20th century is a very rapid succession of multiple movements. So there's lots of movements all throughout the century, and some of those overlap as well. So, you know, I'd have to sit down and write them down and can't off the top of my head, but lots and lots of movements happening very quickly. So some movements might kind of, you know, be defined by a naysayer decade, but and they resurface and influence other artists as well. So there's lots of overlap. And there's just lots of stuff happening. The 18th century is a century that has been neglected in research and scholarship until up until about the last 10 or 20 years, you know, people just didn't take it very seriously. So there's still a little bit of debate and a little bit like there's a lot of work to be done still. The start of the period, some people refer to as late Baroque, but it's really the Rococo, which is that the very highly decorative style, and then the, from the Rococo, we move into neoclassicism, which is, you know, the more classical austere kind of painting where it's all about heroic virtue, and those kinds of things leading up to the revolution. And then, around the time, like after the revolution, you have a movement called romanticism, which kind of spills over into the 19th century. And that's where you have artists like Turner doing those beautiful images of shipwrecks and storms and things like that. So we're going back to nature and the the power of nature and the sublime and those kinds of things. So it's really like, three year three movements in one century, and they do overlap in some of those artists. So for example, some of the, the artists working the Rococo style, kind of they also, you know, depending on when they were born, and who they were working for, they do kind of creep into the other styles as well. So some of the new classical artists move into romanticism, some of them don't, some of the Rococo artists move into neoclassicism, it really depends on where they are. And I guess that that notion of things have to have a start and finish, it just doesn't work like that things are all overlapping. And, yeah. And it's really formed and shaped by what's happening in the political and social cultural context as well, like, you know, so the easy thing there is like the the revolution, the French Revolution had an enormous impact on artists. So you do see a lot of things happening in the artwork that, you know, as what an art historian does is we look at works that are made in different time periods, and try and understand them in the context that they were made in as well. And that helps us understand what people were concerned by what people were thinking and how lives were lived at that period. Art historians tend to specialize. Like, for example, I specialize in the 18th century, but also look at contemporary art. Also look at modern art, sometimes I look a little bit at the 17th from the 19th. But I couldn't tell you very much about the Byzantine period, for example, there's just so much stuff out there. Art historians, we don't memorize dates and titles of paintings and things because that's connoisseurship. What we do is we look at objects and images as primary sources of material that can tell us it's kind of it's like detective work, you know, historians look at letters and documents and things and to tell the story of a person or what's happening in a period of time. And that's what we're doing with objects and images, where, you know, we're talking about the history of the work and the artist itself, but we're also recognizing it, doesn't it? Nothing is made in a vacuum, like, you know, artists are working in all different kinds of circumstances and political climates. And it really does shape what's being made. And not just visual art, but music and literature as well. Yeah. I mean, I've given very, very short, brief overviews of things. I've felt I have simplified things a lot. But I think, like, for example, when I when I say, you know, that 18th century has been a period that hasn't been as loved up until now, it's very different now. But when I started doing my Masters, people were still dismissing the Rococo, which is like the earliest period of the 18th century, there was some really groundbreaking research happening and the art historian is really fighting for the for that area of the discipline to be taken seriously, and they've done amazing work since but I think, you know, art history, it's like any other discipline, I guess, you know, it is susceptible to fashion you know, sometimes it It's hard to, you know, study an Australian colonial art, you know, I don't know, like it does go through fashion. But I think the 18th century really was quite overlooked. I'm not sure about the other disciplines, but definitely in art history, it was overlooked and not taken very seriously for a long time. That's his, like you said there was so much happening at that time, there was so much going on, and so much changing. And then it's like, oh, we're not actually going to write it. You know what I mean? Well, I can, again, I'll give you a very short answer for that, um, things like neoclassicism and romanticism, which happens later in the century were studied and taken more seriously. Like I, you know, I, like I was saying I did sort of condense what I was saying, and I simplified it a lot. They were taken seriously, much more seriously, for a long time than the first part of the century, which is that period that I refer to, or everyone refers to as the Rococo. And that is, because when we look at and this is, this is why that slide that I mentioned, was laughed at. Because it is so pretty, it is so feminine, it is so over the top decorative, it's ostentatious, it's, you know, it's just the height of frivolous for some people. And, you know, people kind of look at that, and the thing Oh, that's so ridiculously chocolate box, which is exactly what the lecturer said, like, there's, it's all feminine, decorative nonsense, there's no substance to it. And in that period of time, you know, women were powerful patrons, and they were really helping to shape fashion. And so, you know, sadly, because there were so many women involved, it was denigrated as fluff and nonsense, and it's totally not, like, once you start researching and looking at those images properly, and like looking at the culture in the social context of the period, it was enormously sophisticated and very, very progressive. Um, but, you know, historic later historians, you know, sort of later, later, from the 19th century, in particular, kind of looked back on that time and said, Oh, it's, it's all just feminine. You know, let's look at the stuff that's much more serious. And, you know, much more interesting, because, you know, it's about war. You know, the forces of nature and exploration and things, which is, of course, fascinating. But that's, that's really why people didn't take the early period of the 18th century. Seriously, for a long time. Yeah, because it was too feminine. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, it's just about flowers and puppies, you know, but there's a lot there's so much more. That's hilarious. Yeah, and it's a very simplistic view, because, of course, they're really looking at, you know, paintings and fashion and things. But, you know, the Rococo, you have to look at what was happening in, you know, maths and architecture, like there is that period of the Rococo period, and that style, that movement informed mathematics. I don't understand how that is, but it does. I'm not a mathematician, but I have read that it informed architecture and garden design and, you know, philosophy. It's incredibly rich period, the artists were talking to, you know, writers and philosophers and musicians, they were all generating and exchanging ideas and these really amazing communities. Yeah, like you said, before the community having people together, and yeah, bouncing ideas off of each other. So we briefly briefly touched on the involvement of women in that era, during that time were women painting, or were they more, like you said, the patrons of that era. So this is really this is really, really interesting. So both in that period of time, you know, the, I'm trying to think of how to make this a short story, not a very long one. So, in that period of time, women, I've got to be careful how I say this, because I'm not saying women were completely liberated from, you know, systems of patriarchal oppression because they certainly weren't. But women with money and power became very influential patrons. So one patron in particular, I'll give you one example Madame de Pompadour or was the king's favorite. She was a woman from a middle class background, she worked her way up. And she became a very, very influential patron of the arts. And she was a very good friend to artists and philosophers, musicians, scientists, she was an intellectual woman. And she held her own salons. And she, yeah, she patronized, you know, she, she commissioned artists to, and not just visual artists, but all kinds of artists to make work for her. And so that kind of patronage was really, really important to artists, you know, in sustaining their careers and their incomes, but also in shaping the visual culture of the time as well. And so yes, women with money and power and privilege, were definitely heavily involved in shaping the visual culture. For artists, female artists, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. There were some really, and I'll use the word exceptional. And some some art historians do use that term, too. There were exceptional art, women artists who had the support to train in, you know, studios that have their brothers or their fathers, for example. And at that time, women weren't allowed to go into the academies, except for a couple of women that we call the exceptional women. So for example, Angelica Kauffman, and Elizabeth Vichy LeBron, were two examples of female artists who worked in like they entered, they were permitted entry into the French Academy. And they became very successful artists. And they worked for the crown. And for example, LeBron and Kaufman, they worked for the Queen's at the time as well, for Marie Antoinette. And so they were very good friends of very powerful people. But that was quite rare. It wasn't, it wasn't as common. It was, it was much. No, I think, I think the thing about being a woman artists at that time was, you know, you really needed to have the support of men around you, like you needed to, you know, have, especially early in your life, because you sort of started training, as a child, or as a very young adult, you really needed to have access to a studio. And that was really out of the reach for females, unless you had a brother or a father, you might have been helping them make their work in the studio and have access to materials, someone might look at what you were doing, and say that's really, that's really great, we're going to try and get you some teaching, they might go and work with another artist and you know, gain some more skills. But the process is much more difficult for a female to become a professional academic painter. There were also other artists who, and this is where it gets. Again, I don't I don't want to go on and on too much, because it's not an art history lesson. But there were other artists who worked in pastels, for example, they didn't do the traditional academic painting, they use pastels to make beautiful images of flowers and portraits and things. And some of those women were working very independent of the academy. And that's how they sort of sustained their practice. But they weren't considered professional in the same way that the members of the academy and the painters to the Crown were. So you had different groups, I guess the thing was, gaining entry into the academy was that you had to, you had to sort of like, do a whole heap of training and learning first, but then to enter into the academy, you had to paint what they what we call an academy reception piece. So it was always like it had to be a grand painting. With a mythological or historical subject matter. It couldn't be a portrait or a landscape. It had to be like a religious work or something like that. And then that was judged and if that was good enough, then they could enter into the academy. But when I shouldn't say too, when I say exceptional for the women, it wasn't just that they were exceptionally talented or exceptionally good. What I mean by that is that women like Angelica Kauffman, for example, she she was very successful. She was an independent professional artist. She was considered exceptional, not just because of her talent, but the fact that she was a woman. You know, it's like, women aren't really supposed to be good at these things. Women are, you know, the too imaginative. They're too irrational and emotional to be doing work. In the same capacity as men, right? Well, because because she's a woman, she's exceptional. And it's a heartbreaking thing to say like, and I still I find that really difficult because you know, in that period women, like Pompadour, for example, she was the king's favorite she was a powerful patron she was an intellectual she, she was also a printmaker, she was doing all these amazing things. She was, she was, of course, very, very powerful and privileged because of the position she was in. But she was also someone who came from a middle class background and worked her way up. But these, these women were standout figures. And we we call them exceptional, because that's not that's not the normal life of a woman in that period like that they are elite women. And even even when you do have privilege behind you, you're still you still have to go the extra mile to, you know, advance yourself and to prove your capacity more than your male counterparts. Do, you know, you have to work harder to get there and to keep that position. As you it's really, because men and women were considered to be completely opposite, like men were the rational creatures capable of higher thinking and academic pursuit and women were nurturers and mothers and imaginative creatures prone to hysteria, things like that. Let's see exactly how they spoke about them. You know, women, women had the creative impulse, but they're also too imaginative and emotional to sort of harness those qualities into our interior rational way to make something more, more worthy of the academy, for example, I don't really know how to explain it. It's, yeah, they couldn't harness all of that stuff that creative people have, in a way that was balanced and reasoned enough to achieve, you know, a great work of art. Yes, it's like the eyes of men. Yeah, in the eyes of men. And so that's an even in art criticism, like, we do have documents where art critics are saying, oh, you know, this particular artists would be much better, you know, doing their paper flower cutouts, because they were looking at crafting. And this is where our denigration of craft comes from, too. That's associated with the feminine stuff. So they're kind of I don't know, you're not really good enough to be a professional painter, just go into your crafty stuff instead, you know, is that hierarchy? It's very gendered? Yeah. I think that we are getting better at that. But I think that kind of does still persist, sometimes. So these women that you talk about that went to the academy, where they mothers as well. This is where I'm not, I don't know a lot about their biography. I know that LeBron had one daughter, and I think her name was Xian. And she actually appears in lots of her portraits. I don't know their story very well, I think. I think this little girl was in lots of portraits. And so she would have been very close to her mother at that time. But for some reason, I think, later in life, their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm not really sure why. But you know, she was her mother was painting her, so she was subject matter. And there are, of course, other artists, especially in the 20th century, who have used and postmodern period as well, who have used their children as part of their artworks. Yeah. Is that something I'm really interested in? Is that that this challenge between their work and their role as a mother, is that something that women artists have faced in the past? I mean, I'm sure that it can you say you can you say it in the work? Or does it come out in the work or is it? Is it something that you've you can research? That makes sense? There's the Oh, wow. It's like, you know, there's so many different ways of being an artist, and there's so many different ways of being a woman in so many different ways of being a mother. So I think, like, for example, Barbara Hepworth, I'm just pulling out examples as I think of them. Barbara Hepworth was a sculptor and her work is quite abstract, but I know that she, she really considered being a mother integral to her practice. I don't know a lot about her work, but I know that she did consider her children to be as, like very influential on her like she loved being a mother and she thought that was really important to her practice, but also know that there are lots of artists like feminist artists who would have loved to have children but didn't have children because they knew having children would have a big, like a detrimental impact. on their career, so there are artists who have consciously made the choice not to have children. Louise Bush was another artist and nothing she had five children. She, again thrived on being a mother, I'm not sure how that shaped her practice for her. But there's another artists birth Maura, so an impressionist artist, and her daughter is, again, provide subject matter for her. We have lots of images where you see her daughter making an appearance. And I think she, I think her daughter was a model for other artists as well. So in, in lots of ways children have been subject matter for artists. In other ways, they've just, you know, I suppose, been around and provided their mums with energy. And, you know, I don't Yes, it's fair, it's very different for all artists, I think. I have friends who are mothers and artists now and I know, a couple of them motherhood is a very, like, it's a central theme in their practice. And their work is very specifically about motherhood and about their children. So I think I kind of get the sense that it's easier to make that kind of artwork now than it has been, like in the early modern period, for example. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say, too, is just going back to the early modern period, there's lots of artists. This is another thing that's really sad. There's lots of other artists who are very, very good painters, but a lot of their work has been lost or destroyed. So a lot of their work we just don't even know, we don't have record of and there are other artists working in the Baroque and Renaissance periods, for example, where their workers that we were starting to learn now their work has been mis attributed to male artists. Ah, so there's a lot of stuff we just don't know yet. Hopefully, we do uncover more. But, you know, there are other artists who are very prolific, and then they have children, and, you know, their career finishes, or slows down, or some artists have been fortunate enough to have husbands who were very, very supportive and have nurtured their careers, other artists. I can't remember her name. Now. I read this in passing the other day. She was a composer. She was forbidden to practice by her husband when she had children. So she just stopped. And I think I'm trying to think of her name. It's just escaped me, which is really terrible. She was associated with the Bauhaus artist. So I think what happened with her is she stopped practicing. But it took over a period of years, it took her an enormous toll on her health and well being. And for some reason, I think her husband was convinced, actually, no, you need to let her do her work again. And so she did do some work before she died. But she lost a lot of time. Yeah. Well, that's what her name was. I have, I'll have to go back through the book that I was reading the other day and find her name for you if you're interested. Because she's Yeah, composer. I think her husband, I'm not sure if he was an artist, but he was definitely associated with the Bauhaus school, which is designers and artists in Germany. Yeah, I don't. It's just something that I came across the other day. I don't know very much about that about her. But that just kind of really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. terribly sad. So I think there's a lot more we could we could say, but it hasn't been written and recorded or research yet or hasn't been found yet or it's been raised. Yeah. In terms of your identity, as a mother, I asked my guests this question about, I do the air quotes, is it important to you to be more than just a mom and I say just a mom, because I know that's not a correct statement? Is it important for you to keep that identity and not become mum? Just mum? Absolutely. Um, for me, it's vital. And I think, again, as I was saying earlier, I think that's a really big part of my mental health. You know, being an artist, I guess is at the core of my identity. And I think it always has been, but also in terms of my children looking at me, I think, you know, it's important for both of them, not just my daughter, but for my son to to see that, you know, women, even in their roles as mothers and nurtures they're multifaceted multi dimensional beings and, you know, we have our own interest, not just career or art was have our own likes and dislikes and responses to things, we have our own feelings around stuff. You know, things impact us as much as they impact someone else would we hold everything together, but we need to be looked after as well. And sometimes we need to look after ourselves. And you know, that's critical. It's absolutely critical. And, you know, one day, we're not going to be doing the, the, the intense hands on mothering where our children are so dependent on us, they're going to go and live their own lives. And, you know, they need to, they need to acknowledge that we have our own lives going on as well. And we need to acknowledge that we need to take that we need to hold on to that. Because otherwise, you know, there's so much I think there's so much potential loss, if you don't, hold on, hold on to something for yourself. And I can't imagine what that would be like. Yeah, and I also feel like, as a, as a mother, myself, I never wanted to be that authoritarian, just just mum kind of person, I want it to be a friend, I want it to be someone that they would, you know, feel comfortable coming to want to have around later on in life. And they're doing their own thing, too. You know, I don't want to just be the mum who does everything for everybody. I want to be the person who is counted on as a friend as well. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's motherhood Being a mother is a multi dimensional thing. It's not just you do the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning, taking the kids to school, changing the nappies. It's much more than that. Like, there's, there's a whole unique, amazing individual underneath all of that. And that person still needs to live. Like, you know, and they need to, they need to thrive like everybody else does. Yeah, it's important, obviously, important to you, for your children to say that in you to recognize Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, they're not getting the best of me. And I know, of course, there are days, they're not getting the best of me because I'm tired and worn out. And I haven't given myself enough time or something. But that's my responsibility. Right? Like, you know, I can't, I was saying to my cousin who's a single father the other day, he's really struggling, being a single dad in lockdown sometimes. And I said to him, like, if you don't, if you don't put self care at the top of your list, you can not be the best dad for your child. Long term. You can't sustain it like, you do have to look after yourself. Yeah, whatever. And that looks different for everybody. Yeah, no, but let's see. Yeah, absolutely. I really value the stay at home mum, as well, as much as I do the working mom, you know, I think we've got to be careful of, not sort of, I worry sometimes that we diminish the role that mums have if they choose to opt out of a career because they want to stay at home. I think that's a really powerful, meaningful, valuable thing to do. I think that's incredible. I know that I'm not capable of that. But also know that mums who are doing that, even if they're not working in a job that's paid and acknowledged, it's more important for them to maintain a sense of their identity, because, you know, otherwise, there's a danger of losing themselves in that. And then when their kids leave, like I was saying, what's left, you know, they need to have something that's just for them for themselves. Do you know what being a mum is? bloody difficult. It's probably one of the hardest jobs in the whole world. It is the hardest job in the whole world. For lots of different reasons. I think like it's, it's incredibly tough. And I think yeah, like I was saying, I think doing the stay at home mom thing is the toughest gig of all and I know that I'm not capable of that. I have an immense admiration for people who are doing that. They deserve everything, they deserve all the credit and they deserve that timeout and they deserve being looked after and acknowledged and honored and supported and I worry that they don't get that enough. I worry that even as women we don't give them that enough so I guess then that sort of leads me into the the concept of mum guilt. I think after you know, after the podcast that you're doing, I think you're becoming the expert on this. So I would love to know what you think on that. I think you know what I think I know that I've definitely suffered mother guilt for a different reason. There's a couple of strands of thinking here that I've got. So I think the whole thing with mum do I think, is reflective of a deeply patriarchal society that we live in. And what I'm going to say is I don't think that it's, and I'm trying to be careful about how I word this. I don't think it's necessarily men who are telling us to feel guilty. I feel like we're doing that to each other. I feel like I'll give you an example of this. When I, when I had my children, I was super, super lucky. I was able to breastfeed really easily, like I had absolutely no problem, I loved it. And it was, it was just like, falling away, oh, when my cousin had a child, not long after, and she found it incredibly difficult to breastfeed. She tried everything she could think of. And she was in agony. And I don't really know the particulars, but I know she really, she gave it a good crack. And she ended up having her her baby bottle fed and this nose. So this is like 18 years ago, too. It's not like yesterday. So I need to say things are changing. But, you know, the pressure and the judgment and the criticism that she got for that choice came from other women. And she really struggled with that guilt for a long time of like, I can't feed my child, the way everyone's telling me I should be. I'm not a good mom. And I'm like that, that is, to me, one of the most damaging things that we can do, is judging each other and not supporting each other. I think living in a patriarchal society means that if you're socialized as a heteronormative, woman, or girl, you're also taught that we're in competition with each other in lots of different ways. And I think that comes out in motherhood too. Like, if your child isn't sleeping all the way through at six weeks, you're doing something wrong. If you take a day home by yourself, and you're not working, you're doing something wrong. If you can't breastfeed, you're doing something wrong. If you don't give birth, naturally, you're doing something wrong. So I think I really feel like certainly for me, that's where a lot of guilt initially came from. I don't really do that anymore. Like, sometimes I kind of struggle with putting myself first like I bang on about that all the time. But I'm not always very good at doing that. But you know, my guilt, or my shame, I shouldn't say shame came from experiencing postnatal depression with my son. You know, I felt such shame for that. Because I really, at that time, I don't believe it anymore. But at that time, I really felt like I wasn't a good mom. And you know, and I think the other thing is, it's not always what we say to women is what we don't say to women, you know, we at that time, I know it's different. Now, I know it's changing. But at that time, people weren't really talking about postnatal depression, and I was terrified. I thought, you know, what, if I tell my doctor that something's not right, I think they might say that I don't deserve to have my child. Like, you know, I was honestly I was, I was petrified. And then, when things kind of settled down for me, and I was on medication, I just had that overwhelming shame. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing I'm not doing a good enough job. Like, I'm not as amazing as that lady over there with her five kids is, you know, like, was so in love with this little baby, but I couldn't get it right. And something was wrong, and I couldn't understand it. So I think, yeah, I think that's the closest that I've really had to that full on mom guilt. And I just kind of feel like, we need to do more as women to encourage and support each other. But talk about and this is why I think your podcast is so amazing. We need to share all the crap stuff because there's so much crap stuff. And I'm sorry, being a mom is amazing. And it's an honor, it's a privilege, but there is so much crap in it. There's so much stuff that there's so much stuff that hurts there's so much stuff that's ugly and demoralizing and upsetting. And so many so many things that other people just don't understand. But you know, we need to at least acknowledge it and we need to, we need to tell our own children. You know what? Childbirth isn't easy. And it's okay, if you feel like shit after you've had your child like it's okay. Like all of these things are okay. And it's normal and a million other people are doing it too. Because it's so and you know, like I I learned so much from that experience, and I think it's, it's certainly taught me things so that hopefully I can be a much more empathetic ache mother friend, whoever I need to be for someone else, you might go through that. But, you know, like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and all that. It's, I don't know, I just kind of remember how confusing it all was too, because I desperately wanted my son like, he was a baby I literally prayed for, like, you know, I wasn't interested in becoming a mother for the longest time. And all of a sudden, I desperately wanted and wanted to have this baby. And he didn't come for a while. And then when he did come, and then I had him and I was looking at his eyes, I was absolutely honestly, had never felt such love. But at the same time, I was petrified out of my mind. And I was really sad and anxious. I felt like oh, my God, I've, I'm going to break this thing, I'm going to do something wrong. And then the more I plummeted into that, anxiety and depression, I thought, if I say anything to anybody, they're gonna take my baby. Like, though, in the very, very early days before I told my doctor, I thought someone's going to take him away from me. And I think that's why I didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't want to be judged. I did talk to my parents about it. I talked to, you know, my son's grand grandmother about it as well, very early on. And they're the ones who actually kind of steered me over to the doctor to get some medication. Thank goodness, because I wasn't in a very good way. So and, you know, that, yeah, it takes a really long time to get your head around that and a really long time to, to say those words. But there's so important. And I think this is another reason why I think your podcast is so immensely valuable, because I think if someone had just said to me, 18 years ago, it will be okay. And you were going to do great. And you're going to do all these other things, too. I think they would have made a big difference. And you're not a bad mom, and you're an amazing Mum, you just need a little bit of support like everyone does. So yeah, thank goodness, I think I think things are changing. I think we are starting to talk about mental mental health in the mainstream. Much more than we did, but yeah, geez. First time mother. That's crippling. It's really crippling. But again, I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a real depth of knowledge and wisdom that comes from that experience two things. I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter at all. I had the postnatal depression with my son. And that was a very traumatic birth. And I think, yeah, maybe it was a PTSD thing. The I think the reason maybe I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter is because I said, I'm not doing that. Again, I'm having this as Aryan thanks. Because, you know, I sustained some injuries and things as well. And like that was that was quite an ordeal for me. And I think because I made that decision early that might have had a bit of an impact. But I remember with my son too, like, there were nights, but I just didn't sleep. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, that was a big thing. I just did not sleep and not not because he was a bad sleeper, but I literally couldn't sleep. And I remember one of the nurses who came to the house to check in on me and stuff. She said to me, oh, when you can't sleep, why don't you just use that time to do your painting? And I was just like, I can't because I literally was paralyzed. I felt sometimes like I was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a really hard space to be in and being creative. I couldn't read a book. Like I honestly couldn't read a book. So I think to create work when you're in that space is I think it's probably impossible. It's like you barely functioning. It's like having a shower was just like, wow, this big achievement. Yep, absolutely. When you say it now, it seems like so unreal. But well, the energy that that takes is incredible. Like, yeah, it's something that you just can't be understated how, how debilitating that is and how we really need to support people who are in that I was gonna say I've always been very opinionated. And having that experience on these kinds of issues has made me even more opinionated and more vocal. And, you know, sometimes I get quite angry. And I think because it's like, yeah, I know what that's like. But you know, that to go back to that thing about the breastfeeding thing? Yeah, I had an awesome experience, I had an awesome pregnancy. But when I hear about someone who's not having that same experience, and who's really struggling and are being judged and criticized for become equally passionate about that, because I'm like, This is not okay. Like, you know, we need to be supportive of each other, especially women, we need to be supportive of each other, whatever our experiences and choices are, whether that's around motherhood, birth career, or not, whatever that looks like, whatever our choices are, we really need to, you know, support that. I think that's the most powerful thing we can do. That's interesting, by the way, that judgment? Yeah, it's interesting. Why do we judge each other like that? Like, is it because Is it is it going back to Days of having to compete for the affections of men or something? So you put other women down? So it makes you look better? Like, is it? Why do we do? I'm not, I'm not really I don't really know. But I have, I have read that in a patriarchal culture, like a Western patriarchal culture, women are socialized to be in competition with each other. And we are kind of socialized to think that there's limitations on resources and, you know, limitations on access to men and all of these kinds of crazy things. Like if you want to, you know, I mean, it goes back into history to like, you look way back into history, like it was really important to be engaged by a particular time in your life. And if you weren't engaged and married, it was a serious problem, you know, and so people, like, even if you watch Jane Austen Oh, yeah, there's always threads, you know, women are in competition with each other, because they want to get the best pick of the of the man to have them, you know, to validate who they are, as women and people in society, it's crazy. I think we've been doing that for a very long time. And not just not just around men, I think, you know, just as we frame ourselves as women in relation to each other and our positions in society, we might not think that consciously, but I think that's embedded in our collective consciousness or something somewhere, it's like, you know, a baby cries. And we have that no one says, When your baby cries, you have to do the thing you are compelled, like, your, your urge is to go out and check your baby, pick it, pick the baby up and do particular things. Because that's what you're built to do. And I think there are, I mean, we're animals, I think these things are so deeply embedded in our primal brain and our collective consciousness and all those things that I'm not familiar, like, I don't have enough knowledge on that. But I think that's got a big part to do with it. But I think we, you know, we're acknowledging it and talking about it. So hopefully, that's a really big step in starting to dismantle some of that stuff. In all of the things that I've said, I should also, you know, definitely point out that in all the the competitiveness and things that we've been talking about, there are some amazing communities that you find that you do find for yourself, where you do get that support, and that friendship, which is absolute gold. And, you know, for me, I've found that with two, two women when my son went to kindy. So it took me took me a long time to find that, but, you know, I've maintained those friendships for the last 14 years now, and I always will, you know, it's incredible. What we've, you know, the friendship that we've given to each other this whole time, it's unconditional, you know, like, it's it. Yeah, it's really unconditional. So there is there is all of that richness and beauty there, too. But, yeah, I really like it, if that became the norm, like if that was the biggest story, and the other things that we that we've been discussing were, you know, rare incidents. We can talk about, you know, what in history that used to happen, and yeah, exactly. The you know, what you're saying now to about the competitiveness thing, I actually get such a thrill. I'm always so excited when I see anybody regardless of gender, or whether or not there a mum or dad. I get such a kick out of seeing people take their own initiative and do their own stuff and make their own things happen. And so, yeah, I'd like to tell you that You know that you're taking your own initiative to do this podcast. When I, when I first found out about it, I was so excited about it because I thought, wow, this is, this is something that you're doing. It's your own project because you care about it. And it's meaningful, and it's, you know, sustaining you, it's wonderful, but you're also giving such a gift to so many people. So well done. That is a fair, that's a very, very long way away from being competitive. That's, that's incredibly generous. And it's really wonderful to see. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Okay, it's exciting. It's wonderful. And and you know, what, it's actually a really brave thing to do to, to do a podcast and to share and, you know, to talk to people about all this kind of stuff. I'm at the moment, I'm taking some time out to experiment and explore in my practice, because this year already I've had working for exhibitions. And I've been teaching and studying as well. So I'm sort of on a little bit of a, like, I've got little bits of paid work happening. But in terms of exhibitions and stuff for the rest of the year, I don't have anything on the go. At the moment, I'm just taking this time to play with ideas and materials in my studio, and have a bit of a break to probably for exhibition. Yeah, oh my gosh, though, they were amazing. But because of COVID, it meant that some exhibitions were pushed forward. And all it was all just in the timing. So, you know, three exhibitions, were pretty much back to back. And to two exhibitions that I had opened in the one week, that was pretty intense. It was pretty intense. And so it was kind of like, Yes, I need time to recover. I also need time to just play. Like, I just need to play with my materials. And I've already I've already got ideas for my next series of work, but I just want to explore the potential of different techniques and materials at the moment. Um, to kick that off, we then just take a bit of a breather you know, Oh, tell you something really funny. I'll never forget this. When I was doing my PhD, I had to, I was doing full time study. And then I had to go down to part time and stuff. So my PhD took a little bit longer than I thought it would. And I remember my son said to me, one day, see that little girl walking around over there. And that was my daughter. He said, that's your PhD. Because I, when I was doing my PhD, six months in, I fell pregnant, I didn't realize that this was going to happen, fell pregnant, and I had my daughter and I'm still doing my PhD when she was like, three. You know, I kind of submitted not that long after but he was like, there's your PhD running around over there, mom, and I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was and it was quite startling, because you already knew like I was when he said that I was sort of like in the process of winding it all up. And you know, I was on the homestretch. But he was like, there she is. A PhD. That is gone. Yeah, it's like, making visible the the length that it has taken me to do this thing. Yeah. And all the effort that you've put into here, rather than the PhD. It's just yeah. That is hilarious. Thank you very much, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat and all the best with everything you've got coming up. Thank you so much, Alison, and congratulations on a fantastic podcast and wish you all the best for the future in this fantastic project that you have. It's been really fun talking to you today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Allison.

Hello artistic/creative mum!! Thank you so much for agreeing to be featured on the Art of Being a Mum blog. If you could please copy and paste the questions into a word doc or email, and then type your answers underneath, to send back to me. Artist Info Tell us about yourself, your art form, what you create, style, mediums you use. Let us get to know you as an artist. How did you get started, influences, why this artform, were you a creative child, what sparked your interest, any study you have done in this field, etc. Is this what you always wanted to do? Did you feel like you had to get a 'real' job and not pursue art? Family info Tell us about your family, children, ages, (names are optional) Share as much or as little detail as you wish. Day to day What does your art life look like today? Hours you are able to spend, challenges, pros and cons How do you juggle it all? How do your children fit into this? Any tips you can share or things you wish you had known? Did you need to find new ways to work so you could continue creating? Support Do you/did you have others in your art circle that have had this experience? Do you or have you had role models about how to juggle creating art and the demands of parenthood? Do you/did you have a support network around you? How did that/does that affect your work/art/creativity? Being a mum Did having a child/becoming a mother influence or inform your work? This one is not about the day to day logistics, more about the emotions that came up that might have manifested in your work "Mum guilt" Do you believe in the concept of "mum guilt"? a) when it comes to your art and b) general life. Do you feel differently about mum guilt depending on what you are doing? eg art or normal life? Yes/No/Why? Discuss - this is one of my favourite topics What triggers your mum guilt? (if you feel it) Identity How did the concept of your own identity change when you became a mum? Is it important to you to be "more than a mother"? eg - you are also your own person, artist, wife, daughter etc If so, how do you give yourself time and space to do/feel this this? What are your thoughts around this? Is it important to you to continue your art/own interests? Is it important to you that your children see that you do more than just the mothering role? Value of your art/creativity We're not talking about the monetary value of your work here, but the importance you place on your creating. If you don't bring money into your household with your creative work, does that diminish the value of it in your eyes? How do you feel about how society sees the value of (mother) artists contributions? Cultural Norms When you were growing up, what sort of a mother was your own mother expected to be? Did society expect her to focus only on her family and home roles? How did that effect you as a child and then growing up and how you approached your own parenting? I'm in Australia so Im really interested in how other cultures have expereienced this. Anything else An opportunity for you to share anything additional t hat is important to you, or to promote yourself, your business, etc Future What projects are you working on or have coming up? Shows, gigs, etc Where can people find you online? Social etc Other notes Although not a topic I ask guests directly about, the subject of mental health comes up more often than not. If you feel comfortable sharing your experience please do so. PLEASE SEND ME - promo photos that I can share. This can be of you, an example of your work, your family/children, anything that you would like to represent you. Any number from 1-5 is great, and at least one that shows your face is great. links to your website/instgram etc or any other links you wish to share a list of the materials/ equipment you use in your practice. I like to compile a list and provide links for listens to purchase or research further if they wish. an artistic bio, any special awards or upcoming events you would like mentioned in your show notes. SOCIAL MEDIA Your blog will go live on a Friday. Leading up to this I will post the following on my instagram and facebook accounts: Wednesday - Introduction using supplied photo Thursday - Quote tile Friday - Out Now image tile Sunday - Reel - supplied photos Tuesday - Quote tile for examples of these check out my instag ram I will tag you in each, feel free to share or repost on your socials, it certainly helps to spread the word. You will also have a dedicated landing page for your blog, which is a great place to direct people to, if you would like this link for your website or socials please let me know, or you can extrapolate it here: eg https://www.alisonnewman.net/written-interview-articles-1/ firstname-lastname From time to time I post previous guests’ quotes so you may notice yourself pop up again months down the track. I enjoy taking relevant quotes and sharing them around a theme on my socials. If you have any queries or questions please let me know, Alison x

More reviews Alison's kind and gentle nature made it easy to share these sometimes difficult conversations. Leah Franklin I've been listening to your podcasts and I love your interview style. You're natural, warm and have a good sense of humour! Rebeccza McMartin Congratulations on creating such a brilliant resource for creative parents!! What an honour to be a small part of it. Love what you’re building here. Georgia Fields You know, we have International Women's Day where you know, everyone posts on their social media, how good it is to support women. But you're an example of someone actually actively doing that. And I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work you're doing. Fleur Harris Powerful conversation with a healthy dose of fun. I do enjoy your style! The best! Bianca Morra Alison is a truly compassionate host who genuinely wants to have conversations that will have a positive impact on moms everywhere. She asks thought provoking and powerful questions to explore the good, bad and the ugly of motherhood, and to normalize the issues that challenge us. And she's not afraid to say that she doesn't have it all figured out, which I just LOVE! Lisa Sugarman I am so thankful for the work The Art of Being a Mum is doing for the art and parenting community. Mercedes Rodgers What you do is wonderful. I think what you're doing is so significant. And it's so important. And I'm so happy to be here and to talk to you. Shweta Bist It was such a pleasure talking with you and I would love to again anytime. You're a gem! Charlotte Condie What an absolute honour to speak with Alison, Alison has such a beautiful way of interviewing and is a beautiful soul. Carmen Bliss I have enjoyed your podcast so much. I’ve realized that unlike many other interviewers you don’t take over the interviews and make it all about yourself... you allow your guest to tell their stories. Louise Tye It was a pleasure chatting with you, you are so easy to talk to. Dr Melanie Cooper Such an amazing experience to be a part of! Thank you for allowing me to talk so openly, without judgement. It is so important to continue our creative journeys. Pariya Ziakas Thanks Alison you made that so comfortable. You are excellent at what you do. - Bianca Richardson Thank you for having me on your brilliant show. Katherine Collette I truly had a great time talking to you. You are very easy to talk to !! Daneille Kloberdanz I truly had a great time talking to you. You are very easy to talk to !! Daneille Kloberdanz

Wolf new album EP by Alison Newman Alison Newman, hailing from Mount Gambier, South Australia, is a singer and songwriter creating deeply personal music. Her journey in music has been a dynamic one, marked by a diverse range of opportunities, from small vocal ensembles to large choirs and duos, all of which have contributed to her growth and the evolution of her unique musicality. Alison's musical journey has been punctuated by significant milestones. In 2019, 2020, and 2021, she was nominated for the South Australian Music Awards Folk Artist Peoples Choice Award. She clinched the South Australian State Final of Listen Up Music's 'The Songwriting Prize' in 2021 with her original song 'Pieces of My Pain', which was performed live in Sydney in January 2022 for the national prize. Alison's musical journey began in childhood when she started singing and continued to do so throughout her life. She attributes her eclectic music taste to exposure to various music genres from her family. Her earliest formal singing lessons focused on correct diaphragmatic breathing techniques, and she often performed for her family with her sister Emma during her childhood. Noteworthy is her debut album, "Heart Songs," which was released in late July 2019. Following that, she has released three standalone singles; "Sunshine Sundays" in November 2019, "It's Not Christmas Without You" in December 2019, and "For the Rest of My Life" on Valentine's Day 2020. During the COVID-19 lockdown of 2020, Alison shared her love of creating covers in her project "Circa Aurora," where she covered well-known songs in her unique style. Looking ahead, Alison is currently immersed in creating her next album, an EP titled 'Wolf '. This project, set to be released in June 2024, delves into her personal experience with postnatal depression, promising a deeply introspective and emotive musical journey. “The Wolf plays the role of the PND, and I am akin to Little Red Riding Hood.” Three tracks from "Wolf" have been critically acclaimed; Things Are About To Get Dark won the Australian Songwriters Association. 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category. Pieces of My Pain won the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize and Free Me was featured in the Top 100 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize 2024. Alison is also a podcaster, producing The Art of Being A Mum, a weekly podcast where Alison enjoys honest and lively chats with artists + creators about the joys + issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum + continue to create. Themes like the mental juggle, identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", cultural norms, how they give themselves time to create within the role of mothering + the value that society gives the artistic mother. You can find out more here Things Are About To Get Dark Re told from the moment I experience my first PND symptoms, it is a forboding moment of realisation, it is going to happen all over again. This track won the Australian Songwriters Association 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category "What a song! It stops you in your tracks!" Nigel Loveday Radio Eastern Melbourne THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET DARK 00:00 / 03:33 Free Me My cry, in vain, to the Wolf to let me go, to free me, to free my soul and leave me. And I am left to wonder just how did this happen again, and realising that no one is in full control of themselves. FREE ME 00:00 / 03:08 Pieces of My Pain I am feeling cautiously ready to get my life back together, I am starting to feel well and I am literally picking up the pieces and beginning the steps recovering my life. Winner of the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize PIECES OF MY PAIN 00:00 / 03:30 Ready for Up I am ready to celebrate the coming out of the fog, I am feeling more like myself, adjusting to life as a new mum. "This music has helped people." Bronte Ellard - 5gtrFm READY FOR UP 00:00 / 02:58 Feel into You The final track, a song to celebrate the people that helped me through Top 100 in the 2024 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize FEEL INTO YOU 00:00 / 04:01 "I feel like Alison is one of those artists that gives pieces of herself in each song that she releases." RAG MAG radio interviews 18 June ABC Sth East 00:00 / 30:15 30 June 5gtr FM 00:00 / 15:08 1 July 88.3 Southern FM 00:00 / 10:32 9 July Bayside FM 00:00 / 25:46 10 September 5gtr FM 00:00 / 12:13 8 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:52 29 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:10 media The Border Watch - 28/6/24 Limestone Coast Community News - 31/7/24 The Border Watch - 2/8/24 The Alternative Gig Guide - 14/8/24 Media Net - 30/8/24 RAG MAG - 27/10/24 podcasts The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 395 - 23/6/24 The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 405 - 8/11/24 Photos by Renae Lowe Photography Cover designs by Alison

Wedding Reviews Alison, it was a honour and privilege to have you sing on our special day. I couldn't have imagined anyone else to share our day with us. Alison is amazing and you definitely won't be disappointed. -Jess, happy Bride Alison sang at our wedding and was it absolutely beautiful. She is very professional, organised and went above and beyond for our special day. We try and catch her when she is singing around town as it always guarantees to be a great day - Tennille, happy Bride I first heard Alison sing on the night my now husband proposed to me. She was singing for a function at the Lakes Resort Restaurant, Mt Gambier. My husband and I loved the tunes and the atmosphere and I knew this was what I wanted my guest to experience on my own wedding day. Alison has such a marvellous voice I can still hear her singing “my song” A thousand years by Christina Perri to this day. My guests were blown away with her beautiful voice and I commend her for creating a magical ceremony.I would whole heartedly recommend Alison for any function or wedding as she is the “finishing touch.” Claire & James Buckley Alison recently sang at our wedding and it was absolutely beautiful to listen to her. She is incredibly talented and so friendly and easy going. Thank you again Alison for being part of our special day - Siobhan, happy Bride Alison is a professional, fun and flexible performer, with significant experience in helping couples set the soundtrack to their special day. I've loved working with Alison and highly recommend her calm and adaptable approach to delivering a professional and entertaining service at any venue. Tim Gerritsen—Pianist/Organist Alison performed at our wedding in 2009. The addition of live music meant that our songs were arranged by Alison in styles that we loved. Alison's professionalism saw this part of the day run smoothly, and we didn't need to worry about any part of this, including the volume or the quality of the sound. We would highly recommend Alison's singing to add a personalised and special touch to your wedding day, or any event. Emma and John Anderson