Elise Addlem Australian philosopher + feminist S2 Ep75 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I am very pleased to welcome Elise Addlem to the podcast, a philosopher and feminist based in Europe, and a mum of 1. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy (MA) and Early Childhood Education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she is developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism and general philosophy for parents. She believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday, lived experience. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas and encouraging others to challenge norms and think critically, and putting ideas into practise in realistic and achievable ways ... and bring to the public the academic ideas without the condescension and jargon. Connect with Elise Instagram / YouTube / Website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for tuning in. It's a pleasure to have you back if you're a regular listener. And if this is your first time, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Today I'm pleased to welcome Elise Adlam to the podcast. Elise is a philosopher, and a feminist based in Europe, and she's a mom of one. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy, and early childhood education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level, and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she's developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism, and general philosophy, parents, she believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday lived experiences. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas, and encouraging others to challenge the norms and to think critically. And to put those ideas into practice in realistic and achievable ways. And to bring to the public the academic ideas. Without the condescension and jargon. I discovered Elise by Instagram. And I really resonate with her thoughts, and her opinions and also the ways that she shares these. And I really hope you enjoy hearing from her today. And I encourage you to check her out on Instagram, her YouTube and her website. The music used on today's podcast is from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, M Anderson, and her husband, John, thanks so much for tuning in. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks so much for coming on. At least it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you today. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on your Instagram. I'm sure you might be on other platforms. But I've come across you on Instagram. Yeah, what you're doing is awesome. And I just had to have you on the show. We're not going to spin it that you're an artist of any kind. Yeah, because you do creative to get your point across. But I just wanted to have you on because you're one of those people I really resonate with. I really love what you're sharing. And the way you share it too. It's very concise and straightforward. So without me blabbing on can you tell us what your sort of pedagogy and childcare? Your your? Yeah, like your one on one? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, my background is in childcare, I worked with kids for quite a long time. I studied it a little bit. And then I worked as a nanny for a long time. And that was at the same time as studying for a lot of years, I was studying philosophy. So I did my undergrad degree, that took me a long time, then I did my honours that we have in Australia. And then I did my masters overseas. And so yes, I was really interested in academia. But as I went on, I really came to become more interested in what I like to call public philosophy. So basically bringing philosophical ideas to the public. And I thought it was really important to do that in a way that's digestible in a way that people can understand. Because often it seems like philosophy is something that's really removed from society and people will purposely or not be talking about things in a way that's really hard for people to understand. I think that it doesn't need to be that way. And I really wanted to try and communicate things to people in a way that makes sense. Because why do we have all these big ideas, these ideas about society if we can't communicate them, as well as that? When I worked with kids, and then when I became a mother, I really got focused on this idea of how we can communicate these ideas to children and to parents because I think the children have these amazing minds where they're so so open minded. They don't have these constructs in their minds yet, like we come to Have which societally given to us, and which we are given through certain binary ideas through the schooling system, and just through the progression of, I guess how our, how our minds grow. So, yeah, that came to be really interesting to me. As well as that, obviously, the as well as that political philosophy and ethics is really important to me. And, obviously, so many problems with the capitalist system with patriarchy, and things like that affects parents, particularly mothers. And so all of that I kind of try and bring together in this way that I can, yeah, I can share with people on social media. What sort of got you first got, and it's interesting. I didn't realize you're in childcare before. That's my I was in childcare for nine years. Now, I'm in the kindy system. So I'm sort of switched into. Yeah, it's very interesting. But what got you interested in philosophy? Do you remember sort of what was the Yeah, I do. I do. So yeah, the childcare thing. I mean, to be honest, that was a way for me, because I always love kids. That was a way for me to work while studying because I mean, to be honest, I just didn't want to do retail or something like that. For years. I loved working with kids. And I thought, why not do that at the same time. And it's such meaningful work. It's really difficult work. But it's so meaningful, and impactful with the philosophy, so I grew up in a working class background, and I didn't even know philosophy existed until I went to uni. I was the first one to go to uni, my family. I'm the oldest of my siblings, my sister also ended up going. But yeah, I discovered it before that I was really interested in literature and writing. And they're really linked, I think, because it's both to do with ideas. So yeah, I took that first philosophy class in first year, and I kind of had my mind blown. I thought, well, you can talk about all these ideas and think about things. And then it took me a few years to sort of realize, yeah, this is something I'm really interested in and want to do. But it is quite a, it's quite a tough area to be in, in the, in the sense that I mean, you probably know, within neoliberalization of education, all levels of education, higher education, really, the number of positions in the humanities departments is very, very low. And like, the grind for academics is really, really hard. And so yeah, so actually, I'm completely obsessed with it. But I'm still wondering, Am I going to go on and do my PhD? I think I have this pardon me, you know, this academic part of me that really wants that, because that's like, you know, like to have that recognition from academia that I was trying so hard in. On the other hand, after I had my daughter, I really, you know, I thought, I don't want that life. I don't want the life where I'm just grinding away, barely seeing my daughter. And if we have more kids having to move everywhere, just for these jobs where you barely get paid anything. You don't have job security. So yeah. I think that I kind of had to work through my ideas of what it means to do philosophy. And and yeah, and I think this idea of public philosophy is kind of a white assault that I like that it's like, yeah, you're not completely consumed by that. Academia world where at night, it's almost like the outside world doesn't exist. You go to high school, you go to in you go to uni, and you stay in this system forever. You've come. Like, honestly, I had a few years out of it anyway. Because I, I went, I went straight from school to uni. And then I kind of had, I realized that because I initially thought I wanted to the journalism then I kind of dropped out ahead a few years and then I went back. And I kind of did it a slow way. Just because I had to work and things like this as well, you know, like, and then yeah, I, but what I've observed and experience with people, there's this there's a really insular quality to academia. I don't know about other departments, but particularly in philosophy, maybe because it's to do with ideas. It can become really abstract. And sometimes the things you hear are just not related to people's real lives, you know, like, there will be people should do this, or people should behave this way. It's just not recognizing the real nature of life, the real struggles people go through, you know, like, because there is a elitist quality to university, and there are still a lot of privileged people there. Mostly, of course, white men, especially philosophy has mostly white men. And I mean, I'm a white woman, you know, I'm not, I'm not a black or brown woman, I'm, I live in a smaller body. So I also don't experience I'm able bodied. So you know, even having said all of that, I feel like I experienced a lot of I don't know whether I would call, I wouldn't call it discrimination, but just little microaggressions and things like that, you know, you feel it, you feel that you're not the main type of person. So, yeah, so that's another one of the reasons why I think I maybe don't suit that, huh. Yeah. And like you said before, there can be this sort of particular way of speaking, like you said, whether it's deliberate or not, it's almost like a condescending way that like, you don't know this. So I'm going to say, I really, really dislike this. And I admit that I drank the Kool Aid as an undergrad. Because I think because when you're learning and you're thinking, wow, this is so exciting, I need to be, I need to be that person that I admire you who can talk in this way. So using all these neologisms, all the all these new words that have been made up? And, yes, sometimes, for sure, that can be helpful for the theory. But if you've made up a term, you can also then explain what that term means. And yeah, I just think, I guess that some, some people are, you know, really made for theorizing, and some people are made for teaching. And I feel like maybe teaching is my, my thing. You've got a very sort of down to earth approach with that, like, you can see that it's an important thing. And we've all got to, you know, challenge these, the norms, and this critical thinking is really important. But then you actually have to be able to put into practicing in your life in a realistic way. You can't just be barking theories and ideas at people. To be honest, yeah, I mean, some people do do that. And it frustrates me a lot. This is one gripe I have, of course, it's not everyone. There are some fantastic people there. And, you know, some just amazing people that are so down to earth, and that really are fantastic teachers and are able to communicate things in a really clear way. But there are also a lot of people that just aren't interested in doing that, to be honest. They're not interested in the real world in there. Yeah, exactly. Well, to be honest, the all the ones you know that the other ones they've never been in the real world things you hear from people, you know, these older men who their father was in academia, then they were in academia, and they literally maybe have never caught public transport. Or they've never, you know, they've never done a job, they've never had to, you know, serve someone at a takeaway plate, or MCAS or something, or they've never had to, you know, get yelled at by a boss in retail, or you know, just those everyday things that are part of life for most people. And so then to then theorize what a good life is, or what we need to fix in the world. Wanted to ask you about you mentioned Neo liberalism, and that's something that you do know about a lot on your Instagram. Can you explain to people who might not be familiar with what it's about? Of course, yeah. So I think it's important first to talk about what liberalism liberalism is, and then neoliberalism came after. So liberalism, generally came from the enlightenment. So this was a movement in France, in Germany in the UK, in the 17th century, that focused on the liberation of people from a kind of, I guess, cloud of closed thinking now. The idea was that we should be free to To govern our own lives. So, thinkers like Immanuel Kant, John Jacques Rousseau, who some people might have heard of, they had these ideas that people should be able to govern their own lives, they should be able to choose what they do insofar as it doesn't hurt, but as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And importantly, they should be free to think, in a free way, not restrained by outside ideas. Importantly, at this time, their context was a religious society. So it's important to mention that we're still religious men. And this is the interesting thing, perhaps because of the times, but they, they believe that these rules shouldn't govern all of society. So that was super important to be. So to have your thoughts led by reasoning, by thinking does this make sense? Instead of buy doctrine from the church. So this was an enormous moment, because really, at the time, you know, people still couldn't read. So a lot of people still couldn't read, only the elite could read. So that means that if you were told something by a religious leader, that is the truth, you didn't come to truth, by some sort of scientific process or some process of reasoning, it was just what you were told. So this was a huge, huge moment. Then we also have lived in come to have liberalism as a political system. So this is a system in which in which people should be free to do what, sorry, people should be free to do what they want. Or sorry, I'll say it again, people should be free to do what they want, insofar as it doesn't hurt other people. And people should have their rights protected to be free. Now, neoliberalism then, is a political system that began in the 1980s. So in America, you had Ronald Reagan in the UK had Margaret Thatcher, who people probably might have heard of these people's names, because they're pretty important. Australia, I don't remember who we had. So basically, they were really pushing for everything to be privatized. The idea of near liberalisation is that anything that is owned by the government, any sort of welfare state, so a welfare state is like, where the where the government will give people a pension, where they'll give people disability payment, they'll give people payment, if they are without a job, they will give and all these other things like they will fund the schooling system fund, hospitals, even some things we don't even think about, like the Postal Service, ambulances, everything that is public. The neoliberal process, made all of these things private. So that means that companies, some, some rich person bought it. And then that is now owned by a private person. That means that there's no longer this sort of idea that it's a public good, or it's something that everyone should be able to use just because they live in this society. Rather, it will be something that you have to pay for, and that will be based on whatever the company decides. So this process was a really ideological one. And it meant that so many things were privatized, to varying extents. So we've seen the we see in the UK, and particularly in America that so so many things have been privatized, that society comes to disintegrate. So in Australia as well, we had it. But America is really kind of the hallmark of this because in America, even things like the Postal Service has started to be privatized, we see that the schooling system has just been absolutely gutted. And you know, teachers even have to pay for their own resources and things like this sometimes. The other important thing that I do talk about a lot. I hope I'm not explaining in too much detail. No, this is great. Okay, so the other thing that's really central to this that I love talking about is the idea of the neoliberal individual. So going back to the enlightenment, the idea of individualism is really invented, at least in Western thought. So like I said before, enlightenment thinking and liberalism was based on this idea that we should be able to be free as individuals. So then we start to have this idea of an individual, I think that now we probably don't even think about it because, you know, we just think we're all people. We're all separated. But this is actually a really cultural thing and a really I really within our historical context, some societies today don't have this idea, you know, they're more collective societies they don't think always i. So this was brought to light through this enlightenment process. And this kind of shows how these ideas do affect real life, because first of all these thinkers came up with them, then they come to be proliferated, or, or they reach the world, through governments and through leaders through schooling. And eventually, it becomes common sense thinking that we are just all these individuals who are separated from one another. And the most important thing is that I get to choose what I do, and I am in competition with you. In neoliberalism, this becomes even harsher. So like, like I said, before, under neoliberalism, there's really this idea that the government should not infringe upon our rights. Because if the government is doing anything to it, if the government is telling us anything to do, then that is immediately an infringement upon our rights. And it's interesting, because in philosophy, we have these two ideas. They're called positive and negative freedom. So positive freedom is my ability to act. So I am free to do, I'm free to do something. Negative freedom is something that was completely forgotten in neoliberalism. But it's something that's also really important, it's when you are given some restrictions that allow you to be more free. So for example, they protect you. So for example, you can really think about it, I think, a really easy way is when you think about a toddler, right? With a toddler we're always trying to do, we were always having to protect them from doing certain things, or we're always having to sort of given the conditions in which they can flourish. Because if that if they are just if they're just allowed to do anything ever actually, they can't develop and they can't become self governing people. Because they can't become people that can look after themselves as human beings that you need these restrictions on yourself. So other ways. Other things that would be examples of negative freedoms are like a schooling system, you have to, you have to learn this in this, these in these things, mathematics, reading, and things like that. So that you will actually be able to be more free in the world, because you have then have this logical understanding of how things work. You can read and write, and so you can manage yourself in the world. Neoliberalism kind of completely did away with this idea. And I think that that's a real detriment. So everything is rather just seen as a intervening on an individual who, who really needs to be deciding 100% for themselves all the time, what they should do. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's also Yeah, it's also a huge mistake, because of course, we are still living in a society and we, everyone has roads, right? There's still a push for good. There's still a social thing, we still always have stuff that is part of society that actually taxes and the government has given us. So I think it's kind of misunderstanding the world. But yeah, this is so important to me, because I just think that this really impacts every everything we do, really every part of our lives. It seems to me, sorry, that's not a way to start a sentence that sounds like I'm gonna say something really profound, but I'm not. I've never really learned about this in like a steady kind of way like I'm aware of. But I sort of find it so interesting that it seemed to start out as a good idea that you question things and you learn things, but then at some point, it's just gone to the extreme kind of like, when did it become a good idea not to support people in our society that need help, like, yeah, it just and that's, I think worth, like Thatcher has got such a poor reputation in a lot of cultures. Yeah, in a lot of circles, because she just, it was like, I don't know if I enjoyed watching her portrayal on the crown on that series. Yeah, it was fantastic. Ryan, I really liked it. If anyone wants to learn about Aaron in an accessible way, that's a really good introduction. It's not all true, obviously. But I also I also really enjoyed that because I think they did portray really well. How Yeah, kind of the her really special nature because she was a very special person, I think an interesting political figure, not one that I agree with a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting path for now. And it was interesting to see the conflict between, you know, two women I'm taking this in a different direction now. But in the term feminism, something that I'm really all over I love the other day, it seems like the other day because I happen so quickly. But when, when Liz truss became prime minister in the Yeah. And everyone was like, Oh, it's so it's a woman, we should all be so happy. And I felt like saying, but will we all happy with, you know, Thatcher? And she was yeah, you know, this this? I don't know. Absolutely universal. I mean, just because it's a woman. You know, it's really a simplification, I think. And yeah, I really agree with you. I'm exactly the same. I think just because it's a woman, it doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be fantastic. And I we still have, and this is the importance of I think when when feminists are being intersectional, which has, you know, this idea that we look at all these different ways that people are disempowered, different power structures. So yeah, she's a woman. But she's already within this power system. You know, so she and she already has these values. So, you know, she just because she's a woman, doesn't mean that she's immediately going to stand up for women stand up for black and brown women stand up for trans women, you know, urge poor women? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I thought, yeah, there was a lot of that. That was funny. That was a funny, funny few weeks in the UK, wasn't it? My gosh, I listen to BBC Radio, like at night. Overnight, I have an EN. And gee whiz, even they were just, you know, for country that everything's meant to be proper and seem to be right from the Yeah, I? Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I think my husband and I were talking about a lot. And we, I don't know, I kind of have an idea that it's like a bit of a falling empire. Like in the, in the past, you know, it was this world empire that really, obviously colonized everywhere, you know, an empire and in a terrible sense, usually empires a lack of that they do a lot of colonizing and all these terrible things. But yeah, it was an empire. And you know, they thought, the leader of progression and it's not that anymore, and it's interesting. Yeah, it's not in a very good situation. So nearly realism, bad putting it? We don't like it. We don't like it. Yeah. What, what's the opposite to that? Is there a term that Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that. Look, I never, I never like to just prescribe and say, Look, this is 100%, what we should do, we always say, to look at the individual conditions of a particular society. So every society is different. But in general, I argue that a social welfare system would be much better for a system of government where there are these basic protections for everyone. So all these things we talked about. So you know, childcare would be affordable, the minimum wage would be really high so that everyone can afford to live. Health care would be really accessible to everyone, there'll be a universal health care system. They wouldn't schooling wouldn't have public and private schooling, you would just have a schooling system that was accessible to everyone. There would be less of a gap between rich and poor. And at the level of decide ideology, or the idea of the individual, there would be less of a sense that we all need to be completely separate from one another, and more of a sense that we do live in a collective and that we are as human beings, in our very nature. We are collective beings and that we do flourish, we live better lives when we're more connected to one another. So there would also be these grassroots and bigger level structures that really facilitate us always connecting with people. I think that then people would also be flourishing, they'd be leading better lives, but they would also hopefully be less lonely and less isolated. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, this sort of it's such a weird Student thing, isn't it that we've all got to be in tune, we've lost this sense of, you know, it takes a village, you know, that still rings dry. So many countries, it literally does take a village because you've got everyone around you look at even in even my husband's culture, he's not Australian. I just see how people behave. And it's so different. You know, like in Australia, we kind of have this idea that we'll all help each other. And it's kind of true. But when I see it in these small collective cultures, it's just a totally different thing. Like you don't even I don't know you, you don't people don't even think about it. It's just part of life, you know, that you everyone's always helping one another. You never really feel alone. Sometimes it's the opposite, you know, you feel feel smothered by people. But I don't know, even things like, look, I think when it comes to being a mother, which is obviously something that both you and I are really interested in being a mother, you know, mothers are so isolated. In Australia, America, Canada, these so called Western countries, because we've been told we have to do it all alone, it doesn't make any sense. Even. You know, we have that these ideas that grandparents, you know, they shouldn't be around the family all the time. And I'm not I'm not saying that they have to have to be some slave to their grandchild or something. You know, everyone has their individual circumstances. But but you know, that other cultures do have a different idea of family where, where you're just always together and you're, you're coming popping in and out. It's not the scheduled thing where you know, you're like, Okay, well, Grandma will look after you on set at Saturday from two to four. And then I don't know, it's more just like, more of a floor. Yeah. So yeah, I think we've kind of gone wrong in that way. It's really, it's really sad thing. Yeah, I can, I mean, people are becoming more aware. And I think it's something we can change, you know, you know, if we, if we recognize a problem, I think we can start to change it. Absolutely. And that's what I love about this, like, you know, so many people on social media, and through podcasts, and all sorts of things that are saying how they feel about things, and questioning, you know, just because we've always done this a certain way. Why do we have to keep doing it this way, is really important. The really important thing is we haven't always done it this way. And this is something that is really, really what happens with ideology, you know, an idea becomes the main idea about something. And then the best the way it works, the best is that everyone thinks, well, we've always done this, you know, I've heard people say, like, with capitalism, a woman and older woman said to me, we've always done it this way. University has always been, you know, really expensive. And I said to her in your life, it was free. Like, in your own life, not not only so it's amazing in the cultural imagination, how we can forget. Yes, that is very true. That is a good point. Yeah. And it's almost like, whatever idea is at the forefront of the time, that that idea wants us to forget everything else. Sort of going down. Yeah. Yeah. No. with critical thinking, because you know, this idea of thinking about things and picking apart why something is the way it is, particularly Yeah, for kids because I think that you know, if they grow up always picking things apart. I hope that then there'll be a little bit less, like you said, brainwashed or a little bit less accepting of everything. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Talk about this idea of introducing children to these to the, to the notion of critical thinking and to social what is you had something really good on your Instagram? Social justice? Oh, social justice concepts? Yeah. I said, You should introduce them from the very beginning, rather than sort of when they're old enough to what we think old enough to understand them. Yeah, I guess my big thing for me is that we can really break this down into ways that kids can understand whether because, yeah, I worked with kids a lot. I have my own kid. And I think it's really fun to think about for me as a challenge. Think about how we can break them down into things Kids will understand. So you really got to bring them to their level. So, yeah, if we're going to talk about social justice concepts with little kids say toddlers, we got to think, what are we really talking about with social justice? You know, we're talking about inequalities in the world and the way that some people are prejudiced against other people. Some people don't get as good a life as other people. We're really talking about what's fair, aren't we, that's the basis and you know, actually, we talk all the time to kids about what's fair, anyway, because we're really, we're teaching them this, they don't sort of come out and have an idea we anyway, we have to teach them. So why not then bring it up already, you know, in ways, you know, when I've talked to people, um, for example, on my Instagram, I've collaborated a bit with this wonderful woman Kinesia, and she does work on anti racism. And she says that, you, you, you need to actually name the things you like pretending, not saying black, not saying that kid is black, that's not going to help anyone, if they are black. And there are differences, we need to point them out and point out how they're beautiful. And point out how they're great and interesting. So you know, from the very beginning, when we're reading books with kids, make sure that they're diverse books and say, Look, you know, that mommy has white skin, that Daddy has black skin, that mommy has red hair, that day has brown hair, it's sort of you know, everyone's different. And that's what's special about us. And that's what's beautiful. And then you can point out instances, you know, in the playground of like, people being, I don't know, maybe, you know, that kid was being mean to that other kid, because they're smaller than them. That's not nice. Because just because they're bigger than them, that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to push the person around. And they you're talking about power structures? Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, I think I'm not being naive when I say that all these things are connected, I think that you're, you're setting them up to think about these things. And I just think that children are so so capable of thinking, you know, the questions they come up with are just the most amazing questions. So we should just really kind of feed into that. Yeah. And, and you're right, like kids, they don't come out. Like, we were the same, you know, we were little the world has formed us into who we are by, you know, the concepts in the world about racism, and, you know, all those sorts of negative judgment of other people. Yeah. And if we can sort of be aware of that, and I don't know, not to that to our kids like, exactly, putting it. Yeah, like, Yeah, I think we can never be, you know, part of human nature is to group ourselves. That is something which, you know, I think there's always going to be, it's always going to be a process of learning and unlearning, and it's never going to be a thing where I'm like, now I don't, now I'm not prejudiced against anyone. I like to kind of pull myself I mean, take it that I'm always racist, you know, I have internally not on purpose, but I'm always gonna have inside me, or I'm always I always have misogynistic ideas. So I always have ideas about men and women that are based on their gender that I've learned, because these are internal, we're always going to kind of have them to a certain extent. And as much as we try for our kids, they will have different prejudices, or the same ones that continue. So it's also teaching them to constantly question those as well. And to say, it's not that not to feel guilty not to say that I'm a bad person, because of this, that doesn't help anyone. But just to say, look, I'm not perfect, no one is perfect, but we're trying to build a better world. And let's kind of all be vulnerable in saying that none of us you know, none of us have pure thoughts or something like this, you know, but we're all we're trying. Yeah, we were all doing our best. Exactly. We're all doing our best, be realistic and just try our best. Yeah, I think that children are capable of, you know, of taking on the complexity of the world. And you know, like, yeah, you're not gonna say, you're not gonna make it kids obsess about it, or something. You're not gonna be like, but also we, you know, and this is something that it's hard for all of us. It's hard for me, children are people and they're, you know, they have all different emotions, like everyone, they can't be happy all the time. And, you know, so it's not a bad thing that they feel sad. And I think when when we grew up often, there was this idea that you just shouldn't point these things out. You shouldn't talk about it. Yeah, at least where I grew up, and yeah, and yeah, but If you didn't see it, right, like, as a kid, you're kind of confused because you're like, why someone talking about this stuff? And then you think it's a bad thing to even address or talk about, I kind of feel like we're living in a different context now, because we live in a much more global society. And, you know, we have access, and our kids have access to people from all over the world via the internet, and, and I kind of knew that they might grow up having a more global sense. And having said that, yeah, I think the only way things really change in the end is kind of at a smaller level. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But I was gonna rely on it today, we decided it was a good idea not to use plastic straws. And on the, you know, it's just one straw said, you know, 13 million people, you know, so it's like, every single person and do something. And yeah, you know, it does start with little actions. And I don't think exactly, the value of those. Exactly. I'm always kind of the arguing that the minute that it needs to be we need to as individuals push for structural change, we need to stop, you know, governments and big companies from doing the things that they are because often with this, with our society being so focused on individuals, they, the dialogue on purpose is pushed towards these individual changes. So yeah, for us are important, but as long as they speak, all companies is still mining. And still, you know, as long as governments are still in Australia, you know, the government is heavily heavily embedded with a big mining companies. As long as this is the case, then, if we recycle, that's only going to do so much that's going to be both. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I want to read out one of the quotes that you have on your Instagram, completely relate to and I love it so much, I want to frame it and put on my wall, a mother's identity and sense of self is tied to the and then in brackets, lack of social recognition she receives for her labor. Now that basically in a nutshell, is how I felt. After I had my child, my identity went down the drain, because all I was expected to do was look after a child and I kept thinking, I'm so capable. I've worked full time I've done all this stuff. But now all society wants me to do is sit on the floor and play with this baby. And it just felt so weird. And I was challenged very much. So yes, yeah, that's, that's, um, yeah, I think so many of us go through this. And you know, on the one hand it is there are two sides to it. On the one hand, you have that. For some, for some women, this is so monotonous. And this is just, you know, women are told that they need to absolutely love being a mother every single moment. And this is a this is a patriarchal idea, because it's based on the idea that women are just naturally made to be nurturers. This is your God given role. And some women simply don't feel that and that's totally okay. And, you know, one person isn't meant to completely bring up a child. On the other hand, I think that capitalism really puts this emphasis on our job, and our identity is totally tied to our job. And I talked about that a little bit in the in the Instagram post. So identity is so tied to our job that when we go on maternity leave, have this complete identity crisis. You know, it's an existential crisis, that just means crisis related to our understanding of the meaning of life existentialism, yeah, meaning of life. So yeah, whole idea is what does my life actually mean? I'm not doing anything, and that's because doing is always within capitalism producing. Yeah, and also, I'm not earning a wage for this. And so therefore, this is meaningless. When actually what you are doing is you're contributing to society by bringing human beings into it. You know, you this is a huge part of it. I mean, this is one of the biggest ways that you are contributing to society, like babies fundamentally cannot look after themselves. So Yeah, so I think that we're kind of women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives. So as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this literally cannot win. I'm just looking for this quote, I had a guest last the last year or this year, I can't remember now. Charlotte Conde who's an an artist from the US, and she had a quote that I love, and I'm finding it because I've got to say it right? I can't, I can't not say it right, because it's awesome. Where is it? Hello, Charlotte, if you're listening, alright, here we go. This is it says, as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. It's exactly what's so well, what's because society somehow under capitalism has become the economic world. Yeah, it, it has become just that and not all these other aspects of society. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes the word care economy is used to talk about how this is that, you know, is also a sort of economy where we're producing but I think even we don't even need to use those terms. It's just the fact that nurturing one another is one of the main human acts in the way that we, you know, part of being human and living a good life. Not to mention that we, there's no way around it like either way. Either way, look after our children at home or other people look after children in a childcare center. It is still this care, right? Yeah. Yeah, people need that. So yeah, we is really the fact that they consider different things as a real problem. Hmm. And again, I think that's, yeah, this one off, like I sometimes bash men too much. But this whole it's not individual men. It's the snobbery. It's been going for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's not a new thing. But here's an interesting post. I can't remember who wrote it. Just last night, I was reading that. The whole idea of being a natural mother. Nurture is a concept that was created by men by the patriarchy. Exactly, I'm sure. Because that's yeah, I felt that when I was first giving my baby his very first bath, and did not know what to do. I thought, how, like, I remember saying to the nurse, I was verbally like, how do I push with the facewash? Like all these? You don't know, just your instincts. I'm like yeah, you got this tiny, tiny little, little alien looking thing. That's the funny thing. Yes. Somehow, when actually moms and dads Oh, parents, just learning the same as one another, you know, like, what? Yeah, when, when my daughter was born, my husband and I were both equally terrified of giving her a bath. Because you know this. So like, how do I hold them? What do I do? And it's like, yes, you're all learning together? Yeah. absolutely absurd. This idea. And you're right, it, of course, does come from patriarchy. Because there's this thing called Gender essentialism. I'm sure you kind of know the idea, or at least maybe not the term. So I was gonna say not probably not in those words, but I know, you would know it for sure. Yeah. So gender essentialism is basically just saying that certain qualities are inherently female, and certain qualities are inherently male. So the female ones would be nurturing, soft, emotional, kind of soft, and all these things and then the male ones would be hard reasoning. unemotional because of anger isn't an emotion in this context. And kind of separated from other people. And these ideas, yeah, are really fundamental to the way that we think about people of different genders and then yeah, becoming a mother. You're just so pushed into this. Because I guess in the workforce, you know, you can kind of there are a lot of still a lot of limits on women, but you can kind of go into a field that you're interested in that but with mothering, you're really, really pushed into that. I am a nurturer. I have to be a nurturer. And it's done. You know, like like with any things some people take more than that. And some people don't. And that's totally okay. And also, we're all learning mums and dads we all learn when none of us are just just born to be parents. Yeah, that's so true. And like, even with my two kids, like, I've adjusted the way I've parented them, because they're different people. So I'm learning as I go. Yeah, because not every child is the same everywhere, like every person is different. So it's an interesting concept, isn't it? I love all this creep. I love this stuff like this. Just why? Why do we think like this? When we started, get addicted to it, and sometimes people are, my friends are annoyed at me, because you know, you kind of have a normal conversation. You're like, Oh, I love that. Other things that you've sort of delved into, on your page? Obviously, politics, but diet culture? is a good one. Can you share some of your interesting thoughts about that about? Oh, yeah. And I noticed earlier, when you described yourself, you said, I've got a smaller body. Yeah, I live in a smaller body. Yeah, sorry, are you live in a smaller body? I'm not an expert on this whatsoever. The with this, just like, you know that I would never say that I am the person that everyone should be listening to about racism. I'm not the person that people should be fundamentally listening to about diet culture. But I do think that it's a really important thing to talk about. But look, it's women that are people that are living in larger bodies, that really the ones we should be listening to, because they're the ones that experience, the experience, prejudice, and fat shaming and all these things. So I'm trying, I'm really in the process of learning as well, I think. Because, you know, this idea that to be thin is good. And to be bigger is bad. This is something that's so deeply ingrained, you know, that like, somehow these are moral things. And also, somehow these are things that we can totally control. And, and if you're not, then you just need to try harder with them. So, yeah, so yeah, I like all of us, I grew up, just hearing from everyone around me, people are constantly criticizing themselves about their body, you know, and especially women, not only women, but especially women is such a collective thing we do you know. And then, of course, after you have a baby, it's the thing we do, and we just waste so much time focusing on our bodies, how much were the things we want to change and what we paid about our bodies and things like this. But the reason why I think it's important to talk about it as a diet culture, like as an ideology we have in societies because what we learn from fat people are people that are living in larger bodies. So I purposely use the word fat because, you know, when we grew up, we're taught you shouldn't use the word fat. It's like an insult to someone. And there are some activists like Aubrey Gooden who I don't know whether, you know, the podcast maintenance phase, it's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, yeah. You know, she, she kind of says this, this is a descriptive term. I believe that different people kind of have different ideas like about this. But what I've learned is that, yeah, it's just a descriptive term. And as well as that to say things like I'm living in a smaller body, I'm or someone who's living in a larger body with saying that this is just the body we live in. We're not. We kind of haven't chosen this. And we know, it's just based on genetics. It's based on, you know, our stress levels. It's based on what our social context is, you know, how much money we have the availability of food, how much time we have to prepare food or exercise, what sort of weather conditions, we have just so many things we cannot control, we fundamentally cannot control it. And so I think it's so important to talk about how there's so much prejudice against people who are not thin, just fundamentally and this is quite a new thing that is being talked about now. And there's so much pushback against it because we have so much obsession with thinness and, you know, the things that people talk about that they you know, the prejudice that they face, even just simple things like to get medical care you would know, from listening to maintenance phase, you know, the stuff that Aubrey Gordon talks about and how people you know, as kids, they will be put on diets. And everyone says that, well, that's okay. Because they just, you know, we just want them to be healthy. And the psychological effects of that are just terrible. So I think it's so important to talk about. So while Yeah, you know, while I, as a person, of course, have gone through a process of, you know, learning to have more neutrality toward my body, and things like this, and I am really trying to teach my kid to have a positive relationship with food. So for nothing, this is good food. This is bad food. Often Intuitive Eating is a term that's caught that's used around this. I think, really, though, the fundamental thing is that we need to think about these power structures and how fat people are just completely completely, you know, they really suffer from inequality in so many ways, because of this prejudice. And someone pointed out to me correctly that, you know, on social media on Instagram, so many people talking about intuitive eating and talking about diet culture, are people living in smaller bodies, and often white women, you know, so. So we, you know, I, we can only say so much about this, it's not really our authority, I think we need to really have a lot more diverse people talking about this, and, you know, to really listen to them. Yeah, I think that's really true. Similarly, with, like, we're talking about before about how I sort of speak to my children about things, we found weight, like I I'm a fat person, I'm not ashamed to say that because there it's like saying, I'm, I'm tall, and I'm fat. You know, they're descriptive. Exactly. This. Yeah, this is the thing. I think, also, it's like about everyone's own relationship with themselves, like, whatever, I guess whatever you choose to identify with. Yeah, is important. Yeah. But like, I explained to my kids that, you know, I showed my, my youngest son's never seen me, in a thin body, I was, I have a different time in my life. My weights fluctuated. But I showed him a picture the other day of when I was my lightest, and he couldn't believe it was me. And I said, I'm exactly the same person that I am, as I was, then like, I'm actually a happier and more settled person now. It doesn't change, like, you know, whether I'm good at something or bad at something, maybe, you know, Netflix is different. But you know, I'm still, but it's not like a moral a moral thing. It doesn't say that. Because, like, Okay, I live in a smaller body, but I'm not good, athletic, you know? And I'm not my diet isn't the best, you know, that's the other thing that like, no one ever is sort of looking at me eating pancakes or something and being like, oh, you know, gee, you should pick a healthier option or something. I mean, of course, like, maybe my grandma did, because, you know, like, that's that generation. And that was like, you know, just so ingrained for them that they're always kind of policing and worrying, maybe you will get bigger, maybe we'll you know, like as it but you know, no one, you know, for fat people that it's a public thing that can go in, you can go in public without being harassed in this way. And this constant microaggressions. And yeah, so I just don't think it makes sense. Because, yeah, people don't know what anyone's diet is. And also, it's irrelevant. totally irrelevant to other people what someone eats. I mean, I just think tying the moral thing as if it makes you a good or bad person is absolutely absurd. Like, how is it got to do with anyone else? Or whether you're a good person? Because like I said, it also depends on so many factors like, like, ultra if you're, you know, if you're tired parent, if you don't have much money, or so many things, and even if you even if you do have the ability to eat healthier and choose Not, not the word health isn't very good to eat more whole foods or something. If you don't, it's your own choice. You know, like, just like people choose to do different jobs, people choose to have leisure time doing different things. And it's funny, though, like, we talked before about this, neoliberalism is all about the self, but we're so obsessed with everybody else. It's like, yeah, there's you so big, like, has it always been? Yeah. People always. I think, I think it has, yeah, I don't like this something about, you know, like, I don't agree with the idea that, you know, society is worse than ever, in that sense. Because, you know, also even when we talk about neoliberalism, look, there were periods where we had greater social welfare and things like that, but fundamentally looking back In history, it was much worse, you know, because we were like, kings and staffs. We were there was just slaves and slave owners, you know. So that was funneling until there are still slaves in the world. You know, there are a lot. So, yeah, we have to put it in context like that. And when it comes to beat judging each other. Yeah, I think that now we just, it's more public because we have these avenues. But look, when we, I mean, I don't really know what happened before writing was a thing. But you know, you look at these old publications from few 100 years ago, newspapers, that it's all gossip there, it just does seem to be this human thing. to gossip about each other, and to compare and to judge. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, we, we kind of do do that. Yeah. And, but the difference is with this constant, it's more constant now. Because we just can't, I mean, think about the amount of different opinions and messages we're reading a day, or we're listening to a day, it's just so much. So I think that's why it can feel so overwhelming. Now, I'm gonna lead this into something that I talked to all my guests about, is this concept of, of guilt, or particularly mom guilt. Yeah. And the more that we talk about it, the more I believe that the whole culprit of it is this, what society expects us to be as mothers, so that we think we've got to do so we put these on ourselves, and when we don't meet them, then we feel bad about it. So it's an external construct. It's a thing that's coming at us. And I feel like, because of social media, it's just heightened the whole thing, because we can see so much more, you know, before we heard that, such and such down the road was doing such and we go, oh, shouldn't do that. Blah, blah, blah. There's she might not have known that. But now, it's, you know, people can tell each other what they think of them all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're right. It's, it's just constant. And also, it's, it's really difficult, because I think as well, we seek out connection on social media. And I think, and I think that, you know, for isolated mothers, we do kind of want to see others that are in the position like us that are also mothers at home with their kids, especially when they're little you know, when you're on maternity leave, or when you're in that really difficult phase, then you really want to think like, and you and like you said before, you're thinking what is my life, all I'm doing is Baby Alive. So on the way Yeah, and that is kind of maybe part of the reason why we do also we're so vulnerable. And then, and then we look to these images of other people and social media. And I think that there is just there are parts that are really positive, and I kind of try and stay stick to them. There are parts that are really saying that, you know, we just need to be good enough parents, and you know, we're all doing our best. And then there are parts that you know, they'll have this really nicely curated feed where it just shows them doing this lovely activity with the kids and they're all wearing matching outfits, their hair is washed, and they're like, there's no mess. There's no crumbs on the ground. There's no like, and you know that it's not real. It's not real. It's not real. But on the other hand, like when you're in this vulnerable mental position, you kind of can think how can how can I live that way? And how come I don't? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, for me personally, I don't know. I think in those early days of being a mom, like in the newborn phase, I never I never thought that you know that that was real. I never thought I want it to be like that. But at the same time I I definitely did. And I still do experience mom guilt just thinking because we have these were socially conditioned, like you said, to have certain ideas about what a mom should do. We have. I think that this is ideal of a mother that it's not even it's not a person. It's like this thought, you know, that we all have in our cultural thinking. And we compare everything according to that. And it's this idea that's been perpetuated by patriarchy so not by men, but by this idea that women are a certain way and that women are meant to do this. And women play a big part in perpetuating it as well. You know, women also perpetuate patriarchy we all we all do. But because this is they are ingrained thinking. And yeah, so I, I would think, you know, I think I would compare a bit more with like other mothers I saw around, you know, like, why does she look so well dressed and I'm wearing trackies and haven't washed my hair and have stressed pimples or whatever, you know, like, or why do I feel? Yeah, or I don't know, when my daughter started becoming an older baby. You know, my daughter is on super energetic side is she's amazing. She, I mean, she's just full of life and ready to go all the time. And it's completely amazing. Like, people always comment on it, but it's tiring. Yeah. Like, I mean, even. And so once she started, I don't know, I was so obsessed in love with her and still am. But as a baby, I sort of said to my husband, like, do you think? What would you think if I took longer maternity leave? So I am in a really lucky position that we've sort of could choose how long I would stay home with it. I don't get paid for any of that. And we're not like, in a insanely good financial position. Like we sort of said, Then during this time, we won't save. But of course, having said that, compared to most women in the world, that's a hugely privileged position. Like for me, for us to even say that. So yeah, and he was like, Yeah, of course. But you can, however long you want, you know, maybe till two or whatever. And then she got close to one. And I was like, starting to think, Oh, my God, I cannot handle these days of constant energy, like, because it would just be like, if we were at home, she'd be running around, and she would be kind of annoyed. And it makes sense, because she's, like, pent up, she needs to get this energy out. There's not enough to do in it. We live in an apartment. That's not enough. You know, in Australia, houses are super common. And a lot of the world people live in apartments, and it's fine. But um, yeah, and we would, I would take it apart twice a day, and it wasn't enough. And I felt really guilty because I was, like, I love my daughter. I should be loving this, when actually it doesn't make sense. But just because I love her doesn't mean I need to love every second of it. Yeah, yeah, we ended up sending out a daycare. And we're all she asked if she is thriving, you know, I, and I'm a much better parent for that. Sometimes I do still feel guilty. You know, my husband has to remind me. And it's interesting that he reminds me, he's, he's a very good feminist. You know, he, he understands why he wouldn't say that, because I think he always he doesn't like to say, you know, like, as a man, he doesn't want to say that. But I think he is aware of all these things and sort of tries to think critically about it. But anyway, he says to me why you feel guilty? You know, she loves it. She wants to be there. But then I don't know just decide. I guess it is just this cultural ideas of like, oh, but she should be with me, even though it doesn't make sense. If she was like, the other day she was home sick with me. And we're both are not in. Too much. You know, she wants to be there playing with other friends and doing the million activities they do at daycare. Yeah, I can't provide her with like, 10 activities a day. Yeah. Yeah, look, what you're saying is so, so true, and so relatable. It's that notion that, like you said, we love our children, but we don't have to love every second of this mothering roles that were you know, an expectation. We love every moment. We don't love every moment of anything, but yet, but then he was coming back. We're hauled over the coals if we say, if we publicly you know, say, Oh, gee, this was really hard today. Well, you want to become a parent. Yeah. Many people whinge about their job. Like they love their job. But jeez, I had a hard day. Oh, well, you shouldn't winter is reserved for us. Of a year, this is our natural role. That's what we're supposed to be doing it. Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. And I think that, yeah, like, like, we really need this outlet to just say this is hard, sometimes just like everything, and also fundamentally that, like, society doesn't really support mothers. And so because we don't have that village, because we don't have the it makes it that much harder. That's for sure. I don't know how many of us do it, to be honest, when you think about everything we've got going against us. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I'm, you know, in such a privileged position, and I'm really tired all the time. And like, you know, people do that so much harder, you know, and I had to know, it's, I'm just in awe, really, but they shouldn't have to, they shouldn't have to, you know, yeah, that's so true. It's frustrating, isn't it? Now I want to ask you, there's a great reel that you made a few weeks ago. It's great. I'm really that bad. This is a big thing for me, because I actually want to, I want to talk about this again, because this is like this obsession, absolute obsession with AD generation. I feel like all parents at the moment, and yeah, look, if you look at it, if you look at it in a historical context, like I say, I'll just kind of repeat what I said in the real because I mean, it's true that every generation has this crisis about some new technology that's going to destroy young people in the time of the ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, so this is like, about 2000 years ago, they thought that writing was going to destroy everyone, because the oral tradition was how we, how they communicated. And you know, through memorizing, that was a huge thing. Because of course, if you didn't memorize, then how were you going to ever remember anything? And how would ideas ever be passed on so that I will now we write it down, now the kids aren't going to remember anything, how, you know, this is going to be a catastrophe. And then, of course, then the printing press, we have books proliferated, that was a crisis. And then of course, the ones we know, which are like, radio, radio was a disaster. Now, of course, it's funny, because people think the radio is like a good alternative to screen time. Not watching. People just gonna be listening all the time. And then they're sitting there listening, and they're not moving around. And then TV, of course, which still goes on, and then the internet, you know, so I just think that yes, there are these recommendations that we have. But when we obsess over them, we're just really not thinking in context. Because we're, we're not thinking about the fact that, like, the alternative, we think that the alternative to screentime is like this, this 100% quality time with a parent or with some other caregiver, where they're just flourishing, and they're, you know, they're just absolutely taking everything in and learning. And, you know, for like, in the past, the alternative was probably working for a lot of children in the world. Now. The alternative is working, bored, either working in paid labor or working at home helping with the helping maintain the home. Or if it's not that, you know, it won't necessarily be this quality one on one time, all the time. And even if we talk about, even if we don't talk about that, we just talked about our own context. Then it, I just don't think it's the worst thing in the whole world. They don't. Kids don't need 100% quality time, all the time. It's impossible. And you're also going to have parents who are kind of regulated and feeling okay, and, and I really think it's part of this mom guilt, it feeds into this mom guilt thing again, because realistically, how are you going to cook dinner? With, you know, a few kids around you, especially if they're young? Or how are you gonna, you know, get all chores done? Or how are you audits? Maybe you just need to relax. It doesn't even need me that, you know, maybe you just need a minute. Yeah. You know, without them doing this. And I think that often the people that do do no screen time ever, at least the ones that I've heard are in a really privileged position, you know. And so then for people who have juggling so many things just feel so bad that their kids watching TV. I just think it just, I don't know, it's just guilt for nothing. And also, I just think that when we look back historically, like, maybe we won't be like, Oh, my God, look, they were staring at screens all the time. Maybe because that's just part of our world. Yeah, like springs are part of our world. Yeah. And the truth is, I think if you don't give your child a little bit of access to that technology, they're gonna get left behind at school. That's the other thing. Yeah. Because Because actually, they need to learn these skills. And that's kind of the approach we're taking that we're going to try and as soon as we can I don't know what age they started at, like four or five or I haven't looked into it yet, but it tries to do like kids coding for. Yeah, yeah. because, I mean, that's kind of gonna be really important. And yeah, that's the future. That's the world now, and I don't know anything about coding. And so I'm kind of like, in the dark already, you know. And so I just don't think that, yeah, that track, we're trying to protect our kids from things. I think rather, we just need to think how we can nurture them to safely and, and in a nice way, use those things. This is a really long bow to draw. But it's like, in the times when you'd say to teenagers don't have sex, it's like, well, they're gonna have sex, so teach them how to use a condom. Right? So Right, exactly, you just say just don't use it. And then they're gonna go on the internet themselves. Or watch shows? Well, anyway, they watch shows on the internet, go on social media, whatever themselves, and they're gonna have no understanding if you don't teach them, like how to tell if something is factually based How to tell if something is safe, you know, or something that is comfortable for them, you know? Or how to ask you if it's something uncomfortable on the internet happens to them to tell you and yeah, exactly like this creepy purple, they're selling to me or something. Instead, they'll just hide it. And then they're getting more on. Yeah, yeah. So I'd say waiting until they're teenagers to talk about their safety on the internet, and to let them have access. I think it doesn't make sense. That's not to say that I'm gonna let my kid sit there and do anything on the internet. Yeah, of course not. But but you got to, you've got to give them I think, begin was small levels of freedom and make it bigger and bigger in ways that they can cope with. Yeah, and it's no different to like, if you sent your kid out a little, a little toddler out into a big kid's playground, or, you know, just gonna go get run over and go sit and drink your coffee and not watch you know, it's, it's a part of life and trying to do it in a safe way. So your child's protected and, and if that's important, that communication to like, to bid for them to come to you and say, Hey, this happened, what do I do? Or how do I navigate this? Or, you know, it's so important that they keep talking to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you, of course, would have so much more experience with this. For me, this is all theoretical, and just thinking about it. Because I know it's so hard for parents to work, navigate this whole online thing. But like you said, we just got to, we got to acknowledge this is the world this is the world they live in. They don't, you know, they don't remember a world before the internet. You know, we, you and I remember when it shows our age, but we remember, you know, I had the time before the internet. And so I really think of it as something that happened. They don't think like that. They're just like, yeah, that's the world like when I my toddler she has she's on a tablet. And I don't think that it's some huge disaster that she knows how to, like change the video or something. You know, she can press it as like, yeah, like, because that's just like she's learning all these other skills in the world. Yeah, just letting her do that. Yeah, of course. It's so much easier for her. Yeah. And yeah, it's a story I often reflect on my seven year old we were talking once about how we used to have our phones on the wall so you remember to pick up the phone it only went a certain distance like the cord was stuck to the curly cord Yeah, and he said how did you play your games while it was stuck on the wall? I'm like what? Because had it because he's imagining I've got my phone stuck on the game's amazing I love it. It's not normal world that didn't have this stuff in it and it got it blows my mind like how different because especially because we live in a time when technology progressed so rapidly and now it's kind of seems like it's a little bit plateauing again, like we haven't you know they're trying to do like VR and things like that now but but you know, within the last kind of 20 years it's just been massive with the smartphones and with how fast the internet is and things like this. But yeah, it's so funny. This is really good channel on YouTube, which is something like teenagers try out old technology or something. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're a funny how like they're trying to use a video player and they're trying to work out like how you would put it in. And the funniest thing is when you know that cord comes out, you know the tape or whatever. The real inside it comes out and every one of our generation discuss art because then you have to fix it with a pen. I love that. There's a post it's like what's the relationship and they show? Only certain faithful over certain days you'll know what you find mental part of our life and now like, yeah, they just have no idea what it is. And yeah, it's okay to because, you know, things change and we don't need to, like be romantic about it, but I think you know, because but yeah, it is funny. It is quite incredible, but I think that they're gonna be, you know, do amazing things with this technology is such capability. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And again, I think if your kids not aware of it or understands or knows what even what it is like that is the future they will they will get left behind that's not present. It's literally sorry. Yes, it is. It's the present. It's happening right now. And if you can't engage in that way, you are just not going to be involved in the conversation, which is Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Bla bla what what platforms are you on? I know you're on Instagram. Are you on? Yeah. Yes, I'm on Instagram. I've just started a YouTube as well, because I wanted to do longer videos. Because obviously, all of these concepts. I think it's really fun. And I really like it that I can communicate things to people in a really short way on Instagram, but I'm, yeah, I'm on YouTube. So I'm, I'm, yeah, so you can find me there. And I'm on Twitter as well, if you use Twitter, and I'm just, I'm just developing my website, I hope that it will be out soon. And my kind of hope with this whole project is and this is why I started this whole thing is I wanted to move toward or incorporate doing courses for parents and really for people in general, but focusing on parents like feminism for parents and different critical thinking for parents things like that, and provide different resources. So yeah, I'm really working a lot on that at the moment. Yeah, excellent. I love that. I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people if they want to find you. I've just found that I mean, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. It's good fun. My. Yeah, it's good, fun. Look, thank you so much for sharing your ideas with the world and for communicating in a very non condescending manner. It's really lovely. Honestly, I think if there's one thing like, we're all learning, and I just, I don't know, we're all learning and yeah, and the more we can all talk about things, the better, I think but it's been so nice. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, no worries at all. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for mums of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Mezz Coleman Australian indie musician S2 Ep48 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter + vocal coach Mezz Coleman, mum of 2 children, aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her. Her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business, her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age, it was quite organic that Mezz would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. Straight out of high school Mezz went to Uni to study a jazz improv course. Her son was born in her final year of Uni, so Mezz has never experienced her music career without having children. Mezz has released 3 studio albums, Parts of You, Parts of Me in 2010 , Words in 2015 and a Christmas Album in 2015 . Mezz is currently recording her third studio album, a chamber indie-pop record, produced by Rohan Sforcina (Oh Mercy, Kate Miller Heidke, Ali Barter, Ferla) Adored by folk festival audiences around the country and celebrated as “a musical treasure” ( Bendigo Blues & Roots Festival ), Mezz has a unique ability to conjure worlds, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight-to-the-heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on Carols by Candlelight , and open for the likes of Kimbra, multi-award-winning songwriter Sara Storer and iconic Australian artist Shane Howard (Goanna). When she’s not performing her own material, Mezz’s experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist, has given her the opportunity to work with many international and national artists including Nana Mouskouri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne Gospel Choir. In 2021 Mezz toured as backing vocalist and keyboard player for The Marrollo Project’s “Uninvited: The Songs of Alanis Morissette” . Mezz website / music / linktree Podcast - instagram / website Music heard on todays podcast is from Mezz, used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bandik people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. It is really great to have you here. My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter and vocal coach, Mezz Coleman, who's also amother of two children aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her, her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age. It was quite organic that Ms would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. straight out of high school Mezz. went to uni to study a jazz improv and her son was born in her final year of uni. So Ms has never experienced her music career without having children. Ms has released three studio albums, parts of you parts of me in 2010 words in 2015 and a Christmas album also in 2015. Mercy is currently recording a chamber indie pop record, adored by Folk Festival audiences around the country and celebrate it as a musical treasure. By the Bendigo blues and Roots Festival. Mays has a unique ability to conjure words, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight to the heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on carols by candlelight. And I prefer the likes of Kimbra multi award winning songwriter Sarah Stora and iconic Australian artists Shane house of Goanna fame when she's not performing her own material mess his experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist has given her the opportunity to work with many international and Australian artists such as Nana Maskuri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne gospel choir in 2021. Mears tour is backing vocalist and keyboard player for uninviting the songs of Alannis Morissette. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And thanks for your continued support. Welcome to the podcast today, mares. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to meet you. Yeah, it's nice to be able to chat to you because I've been following you for a while after I sort of connected with Georgia through the Motherlode, Georgia fields, and then I saw that you were a guest on there. So I was like, oh, because I'm a musician. So I like to follow people that I can connect with in that way. So yeah. love watching you. You're playing the piano and singing the songs. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's amazing. What Georgia has set up with the mother lode. And it's like, extra special for me, because, um, I've actually known her for a really long time. We're at the same high school together. Yeah. And it's not like we've, you know, hung out throughout all the years, but we've actually known each other for ages and to just see what she's building there. That community for mother musicians. Yeah, amazing. It is. It's so it's so valuable. And it's one of those things that like, there is no rulebook of what to do. It's like you learn from each other and trip over on the way but then you sort of go, oh, I can learn from that. Or I can Yeah, take that on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're a musician, singer and a songwriter. When did you first become interested in music? I think in many ways, I was quite lucky. I have a very musical family. So my parents It's so funny, this is a story that I've only really recently realized is quite amazing, because when it's just your normal life, you don't really think about it. But when my mum was a stay at home mum for a long time, but you know, loved singing, and my dad worked, I think, a fairly uninspiring office job somewhere. And then when we were sort of when me my brothers were sort of like, early teen years. My father's whole office got retrenched. And so he was looking for other work. And I think it was, you know, a little bit disheartening. And then just on this sort of, like, it's sort of, I think it hit him and my mum at the same time, like, we love playing music together, we should do something with this. Oh, and they ended up like, for 1015 years, like, I think they really stopped doing it maybe five or six years ago. So maybe even longer. They actually built a business playing music together. So my dad would play guitar, my mom would sing. And I guess you would say they were like music therapists, they would go into a lot of aged care places, senior citizen places, maybe I'm not sure, maybe hospitals as well, I might be wrong about that. And they would sing for people, and they would and people would join in, and they would like do the songs that would you know, maybe trigger a lot of memories for older people. And so I grew up just thinking it was totally normal to make a living, playing music. That is awesome. Yeah. And when I say totally normal, like, it was tight, sometimes, you know, like, they'd have good weeks, and then then have not such good weeks in terms of, you know, financial, so, but yeah, like I just sort of learnt from an early age that you can play music and make a living from it, and also makes such a big difference in the world with that, I think that's the other thing that they were doing was it was so much more than being like, perfect, or technically brilliant. It was about like sharing a real gift with people. And so I sort of grew up with that idea. And then on top of that, I was really lucky that both of my brothers are quite musical. So we would often just jam together and play together. And then when I went off to high school, a lot of my friends were musical and musicians. And I don't know, I I feel almost like spoiled now that I've met other people who haven't had that experience and really had to fight to kind of play music, even in terms of like, sort of going against maybe what their families, you know, would like them to do and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, very lucky that musics just been around me, and I've been immersed in it. And if anything, I probably just came to it because there wasn't much else I could do. I'm just like, quite good at this. I'm not quite not very good at much else. So. Yeah, sort of how I'm sort of, yeah, found music. It was very organic. Yeah, that is such an awesome story. I love that so much. It was so normal for us that I thought nothing of it. And if anything, I just shrugged my shot I did. And it's only been in the last year or two. That's amazing. That's a really amazing and inspiring thing to see your parents go off and do. Yeah, and that thing to that, you know, in them. I'm not sure exactly how old they were, but just say, midlife they've gone, I'm gonna totally change my career, I'm gonna take this, maybe take a risk, you know, financially, it's like, let's do this, just do something that we love. And that is so inspiring is fine. Yeah, they would have been a fair bit older than I am now. And so to think that there's, I think sometimes as an artist, and maybe especially as a female artist, I'm not sure about that. Maybe I should talk to my male friends and see if they feel the same way that you can feel like time is running out. And that clock is ticking. And oh, shit. Um, you know, I'm turning 40 Soon, and I haven't done the things I wanted to do, or a bit of probably not the same thing when I was like, in my late 20s, about turning 30. And, actually, yeah, to sort of go up, I've got plenty of time. Yes. Sort of, like, try other things. And yeah, and get this stuff done that I want to get done. You know, it's really helped me not feel like there's this mad rush. Yeah, it's really, it's almost like an empowerment that you can take the pressure off yourself. And I can sort of relate this to the kids like my son's in high school, and they start sort of on their paths of what they're going to do when they leave school. And so I keep saying to him, like I was what was I foot nearly 40 When I finally found the job that I loved, you know, you don't have to know straight away, or they do they put so much pressure on these like 1617 year olds to make these, you know, really important decisions to pick a perfect subject and your whole life will depend on it. And I just, yeah, say the same thing to my son. I'm like, whatever. You just work, you know, just do whatever you like, you know, whatever you're doing at the time, try and do your best but it's not this sort of Yeah, it's not a life or death situation. That's it, isn't it? Time to explore the world and yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You actually have to get out in the world and see how you feel in the world. And absolutely, maybe what are the things you enjoy? Right, I'm gonna leave school and go to uni and I'm gonna drop and that's it your whole life Smackdown was like, that's just so unreasonable, unreasonable and like the stories you know, just like friend after friend after friend who went and started a uni course. And within a year had gone this is so not for me. So like, you know, there's yeah, there's just no rush. It's a really nice Yeah, absolutely. Gosh. Being exposed to the music with your parents, did you start playing particular instruments? At that point? What were you playing? Yeah. So again, when I was quite young, there was this. I just feel so lucky for these rich experiences that I totally took for granted as a child, but there was a woman in my neighborhood who was she played piano? Like, I think back in Dancehall, dancehalls, back in the day, and so she just like, as a very local little business, just all the little kids in the area would go to her house and learn the piano. And you'd get your lowly and you learn your scales, and you'd go through your books, but the thing about her that really set her apart is like she was, you know, I thought of her I think she was you know, quite, she wasn't old, she's still with us. So she's not like that, you know, she was quite a lot older than say, like my parents at the time. And she was so different to so many, like, sort of music teachers in that it didn't take her long to work out that my heart wasn't in all the technical stuff. And also that, you know, I like to sing. So from a really young age, she kind of worked that out. And she was like, Well, I'm going to teach you how to like play chords and accompany yourself, and I'm going to teach you how to improvise. And like, you know, we're not just going to play fair release. And the entertainer and I did do a bit of this wonderful piano teacher who like really picked up early that I wanted to learn that kind of stuff. Maybe even before I knew that, that's what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I've played the piano forever and, and have learnt piano in a way where I've been able to accompany myself to sing since I was practically a kid. And so that's always been a part from my voice. I'm a singer first, but piano would be my secondary instrument. And that's generally the instrument that I write with. And when I'm writing music, and then, you know, just in those sort of primary school and high school years, I dabbled in the flute. And I wasn't bad at it, but my heart wasn't in it. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. The guitar. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's always time. I love that. That story about your music teacher that that is such a gift for her to give you because so many music teachers, it's like theory. You know, like I, I, my experience was with teachers that basically you had to learn your scales yet to know what all the notes were called, and how long you held them for. And I just wanted to play stuff by ear. And it was like, really, like, my, my teacher wasn't as amazing as yours. But I think back now, like, I would have loved to have just learned how to accompany myself, that would have been amazing. Well, she was yeah, she was quite an amazing woman. And actually, a few years ago, I felt really compelled to reach out and thank her and I wrote her this letter, just like, Oh, my God, you're amazing. Thank you. And I got this beautiful letter back. And I think she'd be in her like late 80s by now. The funny thing is, though, when she was teaching me what I think she must have been quite brilliant. Because while she kind of adapted the lessons to suit me and my needs, she somehow was sneaking that theory. And I actually have got a fairly good, you know, theoretical foundation, but really kind of managed to do it in a way where it was helpful or making sense to the end. Yeah, relative to what you wanted to do with your music like, yeah, she's, yeah, she whatever she was, she was working her magic. That's for sure. What a gem of a woman honestly. That's honestly, we should all have a lady like that in our lights. Just be amazing. Marge Williams is her name. Good. Good on your Marge. Give her a shout out. I wish I had met Marge when I was when I was a little girl. That would have been amazing. Yeah. So the game All right. at the moment with your music is your music your life? That's what you do you. Yeah. So, in a roundabout way, I've managed to get to a point in my life where I can sort of comfortably say that I make my living as a musician. But like, realistically, that, Oh, quite a fair percentage of that living is coming from being like, like working in the teaching field, as well as performing and recording and all of those things. I'm really fortunate to have quite a good teaching job at a university here in Melbourne, where I teach mostly singing, like a one on one singing lessons to the students that come through. But I also help, you know, work with bands, and, you know, mentor some of that, you know, mentor the students through some of those processes and classes. And then on top of that, yeah, my, so, artistically, the thing that I'm most passionate about, and I'm always working towards, sometimes slowly, but is my own music that I write. And that I really, yeah, I pour a lot of myself into. And then I guess the other thing, and obviously, work has been quite quiet in the last couple of years due to COVID. But as a singer, like, as a vocalist, I can Yeah, I often work in that field, I guess for other people. So doing session work in studios for like, people that need a, you know, a vocal line on this particular track, or a harmony or a demo and, and working as a backing vocalist for other artists as well. So through or So like most, I think, not just me, I think like most artists, you generally you don't have like that sort of nine to five, steady job, you just you have your fingers in all of the pies, and you kind of slowly build whatever it is that you're building that way, which in some ways is kind of stressful, because you can't remember what do I do on Wednesday. And, you know, there can be dips financially, of course, especially when we're in COVID. But even before that, to be honest, but I also know I wasn't built for a nine to five job. So in many ways, it's thrilling to be doing a few different things. And I get quite excited when I'm looking in my diary and I'm like, Oh, I've been booked for that session next week cool, like different people different kinds of environments. So yeah, yeah. Without the teaching work It'd be impossible Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that you but you're still so involved in music like it's not like it doesn't probably doesn't feel like a real autonomous a real job because it is a real job but you know, you're you're really enjoying what you're doing. Absolutely. I there are things about teaching that can be quite draining and you know, because I put a lot of myself into it. But there are also like yeah, I'm still like I'm surrounded by music every day many of my students inspire me I work I have amazing peers so like other teachers that I work with they're all musicians so I'm sort of like spending time in that world still yeah work yeah sounds awesome yeah day and God fashion keep it to myself most days I struggle to this crew good. Kids my thing carefree was counting on. But it's a bit of an intro into your children. I came into what were you doing at the time when you had your children? Oh, goodness, okay, so I have, my son is almost 16. And my daughter is 11. And my son in particular came along in a very interesting time. I was studying music at university. So I went straight out of high school into a music course that I studied is like a jazz kind of improv course, which was interesting. And in that final semester, of the entire course, I discovered I was pregnant. And that was quite intense. Because I was trying to like, sort of start this music, career, whatever that is. The same time, I suddenly had this, like, human being that was like, gonna need my care. So I had him when I was 21. So nearly my, so my entire music career really has coincided with raising a child, which has been, which has had some real positives, and has also obviously presented quite a few challenges. Yeah, he's sort of been with me every step of the way. And, yeah, it's been. Yeah, overall, it's been a really great thing. And yeah, I guess the main, the main thing that I now know, looking back, not that I would change a thing, but I never really got those years prior to kids to build something up first. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, like my 20s. You know, for instance, I didn't spend my 20s being able to just say yes to every opportunity, or like, just be like, yes, we'd all go on that tour. See, everyone, I had to be from sort of day one, I never stopped, like, I always like, you know, I released an EP not long after he was born, which, kind of like, Oh, my God, how did I do that. However, I probably never had quite the capacity to take things as far as I would have liked. Because like, the child comes first. Like, that's the reality. And so like, my music always played, like a really close second to my number one priority, which was, you know, raising this beautiful boy. So. Yeah, that's, that's just how that's just how it has been for me, like music and parenting have always had to coexist. I don't remember ever. Yeah, obviously, like, I've got an amazing partner. We've been together for a long time. And so I've never had to do it all alone, which is great. But like just little things, like, I don't know what it's like to book a gig without also going, who's gonna watch the kids? I actually never had that experience. It's always been those two things happening at the same time. So yeah, it's a unique perspective, isn't it? It's a little different. Yeah, and I can definitely see how it would have its positives. It does. Yeah, there have definitely been positive. So the positive that I'm feeling now and the so like, you know, the positive place that I find myself in now, is I'm currently at a place with an 11 year old and an almost 16 year old who are pretty independent. And I now have this time and space and energy to be really going for it. And so where a lot of my friends who like have done a lot of their now maybe like they've got toddlers, or they've just had a baby. And so well, while a lot of my peers are probably like slowing down a little bit, which is so fine. They should, they've got kids that need that care. I'm at a place now where I'm really like, much more sort of time rich, and kind of really go for it. And the fact is, I think my music is better now than it was when I was 2122 23. So I could have you know, the energy and the time that I could have poured into my art back then I'm sure it would have been great. But actually, I think the work I'm making is better now with maturity. And now I have this energy also to kind of Yeah, kind of play with I guess. I think the other thing that helps sort of having children along pretty much from the beginning is you. You tend to I don't want to say you use your time well, because people who know me would know that I'm not great at that. But I guess like as in I'm a terrible planner, and I can, you know, procrastinate like anybody's business. But I guess the thing that I do know when you know if you've got to babysitter, and you need to be, you know, so you've aren't, hey, I've got a rehearsal. And I've asked someone to watch the kids till you know, this time, you don't just wander into that rehearsal and blah, blah, blah and wait, like, so you have shorter pockets of time. And so you bloody well use them properly. And so what I found is like, yeah, like, so? Yeah, you it's almost like you get these pockets of time, you don't have just like this rich expanse, expensive time just before you when you can do whatever you want. And slowly, you know, kind of work on songwriting, or rehearsal or recording session, like, sometimes your time is limited, generally, always, to be honest. And as a result, you get quite good at working pretty fast. If I'm honest. Like, yeah, I'm pretty good at getting in and out of the studio, like, position work. And I reckon, part of that has just been through experience where I'm like, Well, I've got to leave it midday. So I think I've got that skill where I can be a little bit like, when I really have to focus on time, creatively, I can kind of just get it done. Same with songwriting, like I really, I mean, I don't, I'm not a prolific songwriter, like, I don't write heaps. But I do feel like when I'm like, Okay, I've got this time, I've got this energy and like, say, when the kids were younger, you know, the kids are occupied, or away or whatever, and I've got these few hours, I would generally walk out of there with a song or two, because it was like, I have to, really, ya know, so that kind of time pressure can work. to your advantage. Also, there's the flip side to that, where the time pressure can be a massive disadvantage in terms of just not having the space and the time that you would want to give to your art. Yeah, so there's like the payoff of that as well. But I think yeah, really fast. Yeah, yeah. It's it's instilled those skills in you and then you can you can take that through the rest of your life really. Because you just want to be. conscious. You mentioned because you had your son, like, you've never known your career without your son. What was that like then for you being in that world with other musicians, other women who weren't mums yet? Was that how did that feel for you being in that environment? Yeah. So there were, again, musicians, like, especially female musicians, are just beautiful people. And so while I was, for a long time, the only one in my peer group with a child, you know, I used to, like I'm thinking back two years ago, like a long time ago, when he was quite little. And I was actually in this singing group with three other singers. And one of them has gone on to just be absolutely amazing. I'm sure you've heard of it. Ainsley wills. She's like, the best. Anyway, and I remember, I would just take the baby to rehearsals, and they were so lovely. They would like hold him that because it was so cute. Get a lot of like that kind of, oh, we'll hold him and we'll look after him and using that. And so I remember back in the day, actually having a lot of support in the moment, like the other musicians were absolutely amazing. I had an I had a band at the time, and we would rehearse weekly and sometimes I just have to bring, you know, my top baby or toddler with me, and you know, and actually everyone else in that band would dudes. Yeah, some of them were my brothers. So they were like uncles to the to the baby. But you know, our guitarist wasn't and I don't know, he could have just been like, this is crap. I'm, you know, I didn't sign up to kind of come to the studio and keep climbing all over my face, so generous and so kind about it. And so musicians in general, were pretty lovely, and pretty welcoming. I think where it became a challenge was more than just the industry wasn't set up for it. So while individuals within the industry were like, so beautiful, so kind, really found Yeah, the whole situation, I'm sure they were all a bit like, Oh my God, but you know, they were like, is like, our friends got a baby. It's so weird, but um, yeah, everyone was lovely. But it was more when it came to things like geeks and knights and just being like, we can't bring him here, you know, it's dirty, there's no way to breastfeed or change a nappy. You know, I really found that within Melbourne, like, where I live, I was very active in the music scene, and, you know, still am. But if I've never really felt I had the capacity. I know, some parents do. And I'm just like, wow, they're amazing, but I never really felt like I had the capacity to tour. So I've never really even even now like, have never really too much. Or like, sort of been able to spread further than that, because I just didn't feel like there was much space or capacity there to like, take him with me, or, you know, the alternative, I guess would be to leave him for long stretches of time, which again, like, I've thrown no shade on parents who can do that. Like it's just each to their own. Just with, I guess, my parenting style and his personality and needs. That actually didn't feel like an option either. Where I could sort of almost be like, Alright, you're staying at Nando's for two weeks, I'm off. That was just, that was just not a way that we could do things for him. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. But like, no, yeah, other women and like my peers, my friends. They were so lovely. It was actually divine, like the way they kind of embraced this little baby and toddler who was sometimes at rehearsals, and sometimes it gigs. And, you know, even though none of them had kids, so they'll probably all a bit like, I don't know what to do, but they would hold him or Yeah, you know. But it was more yet the industry as a general kind of beast, I guess. Yeah, my, my, my place there felt a little. I don't know, where Be quiet anymore. Yeah. I'm going off track slightly. But do you think that is because it's mainly a male dominated industry? Or has been in the past? Yeah, I think so. Totally. And I think it's changing. And I think that's really exciting. Yeah, like men, you know, historically, can have kids, and still go off and do their own thing, you know. And, yeah, I think that's definitely, you know, how the world works, too. This is not just the music scene, it's the patriarchy and action. But I do feel like it's changing, I just think the changes are slow. And I think it's different. Now I see friends who sort of musician friends with babies now. And I think that the capacity that they have, and the understanding that they have from other people, I think, is better than probably I had at the time. Also, I've gotta remember, I was very young, I wasn't hugely educated. And so I probably didn't have the capacity personally to like, advocate for things that maybe I would now as a 37 year old woman, like, hey, use rehearsal space, I'm going to have to bring my child wet, you know, like, I'm gonna have to feed him, what are you going to do to help me like, you person to begin with, and especially when I was 21, and probably much more overwhelmed than I allowed myself to kind of think I was, I wasn't gonna ask that I was just gonna, like, yeah. Or, or, or see that as an opportunity that I couldn't have or I don't know, feed him in the car, or, you know, so I think sometimes, you know, having a little bit more, you know, a few more years behind you, and just a bit more confidence. I've advocated for myself a little bit more and being a bit more assertive, but I think the industry is changing. Like, there are so many more women speaking up in the industry, about and not just about motherhood, but just about sexism in general. And just small things like, you know, there are more I'm seeing more females working in manager, you know, like artist manager roles who are female, so they're just gonna have a, I'm sure, just more empathy for the say, their female clients around some of this stuff. I'm seeing more female sound engineers and producers, and I think that is really, really important. publicists did just seem to be a whole bunch of dudes back in the day. Doing that stuff. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's changing but I just think like anything in life changes are slow. So especially when you're trying to change Something that's been endemic since the beginning of time, but seems like we're looking at like this tiny little kind of music industry. I don't know, from my perspective in Melbourne even like, yeah, yeah, that's it. We're talking about an issue that is like, just the way humanity has been built for a very long time. So, yeah, yeah, I can see. Yeah, but I think more more and more women, a lot of performers who have children, I guess it may be being like, if I'm maybe social media, I think social media can be a bit. Yeah, um, but I think sometimes social media might be great in that way that they might post like, they're on tour, but you can see the kid in the backseat of the car, or, you know, I don't know. So maybe, maybe like, you know, female artists sharing their experiences of like, motherhood and the road or motherhood and recording or just motherhood in any sort of arts practice. Just makes it again, it just normalizes it. That's it, isn't it? And it makes it sound achievable for yourself. Because like you said, as a 21 year old, though, that that wasn't in you at that stage. But maybe if social media had been around, or if you had seen someone do it, you would have thought hang on a sec. That's, that is acceptable. I'm gonna have a crack at this sort of, sort of mentality. Yeah, yeah, just seeing some art. Okay. There are a few other artists, you know, doing this as well, because yeah, I definitely felt while everyone was so kind, you know, my other musician, friends, I think, you know, when you're in something, it's very hard to really know how you feel. Because I know when you've just had a baby, sometimes you're in survival mode to a certain extent you just like, head down doing what you got to do. And so I think now that sort of time has passed, I can be a bit more reflective. And I think I was, I think there was still a sense, even though no one overtly excluded me, ever. I do think I felt very alone. Because I didn't have other peers really having that same experience. And then the few people I would look up to and like, oh, wow, that person is a mother and a singer, songwriter, too. They wouldn't maybe I still felt alone in that a little because maybe they'd had their kids a bit later. And so they still had maybe a bit more of an established Korea. Look up to them. Okay, I'll just do what they do. And then I just almost find that really disheartening. Almost more so because I'm like, they're like, doing it all like, and they've got kids and I'm not doing it all. Yeah, so yeah, it was a bit lonely at times. Buried, you came alone with your shop, silent, said, get out, get in, just get to your beauty, your voice your take on a magic. I want to ask you about when you said before, that you you did your AP, when your son was young? And you said I don't know how I did it. Yeah. How did you actually do it? Was he? Is he coming with you a lot? Yeah. Like, how to physically manage it. The first thing to know about my son and my daughter. And it is what it is like. And again, like when it comes to parenting and how we do it. I just have no, I just people do what they've got to do. Like, I just do not care how other people like feed their kids sleep their kids like you do what you got to do. For me, personally, neither of my kids. So it wasn't because like of my own belief system around feeding, but neither of my kids would take a bottle. So the only way they were fed was via me for you know, 18 months, both of them my daughter a bit longer. So they were breastfed, which just meant they couldn't not be with me for long. So the hours so how did I do that EP, I think I had started recording it before he was born. Which helped so I think a lot of the work had been done. And then I think I did little short recording sessions in around feeds Due to finish off some of the vocal stuff, and then when it came time, I guess to like launching it, you know, like playing it playing like some shows and try to build up a bit of publicity around it, which again, like things have changed a bit, I probably would now, looking back, hire a publicist, which I didn't at the time, so it was just a lot of email, beat magazine, and whatever else it was. I just sort of it was just in snatched moments. i Yeah. And I don't know if that's the most sustainable way to do it. But I don't know any other way. I could have done it. Late nights when the babies are finally asleep. That was often when I would sit on the computer and email out my, you know, although Admony type parts of music rehearsals were Yeah, like, he'd be there. And just thankfully, my musician friends were cool with that. Yeah, the actual launch. I remember, I remember the gig, it was a great gig. It was really, you know, everyone came it was, I was so blessed. You know, like, it was a really beautiful moment. And yeah, we brought him. And so yeah, it was sort of this bar. I'm looking back, nothing was even allowed in there. I don't know. But you know, like a band room and a bar. And it was really crowded. And, you know, it was a great show. And yeah, just with this, I think by then you might have been walking, you know, like, sort of toddler age, just sort of this little toddler near the front of the stage. And it was stressful, because like, I think what we sort of had arranged was like, he'll come but people, they're sort of watching him like my mom or whatever. But no one quite watches your child the way you would. So I remember just being on stage and just being like someone grabbing plays, you know, like, he was too close. But like not like just all like I'm literally performed. Internally, almost just yelling at people like, move him grab him. He's too close to that, or whatever it was. Yeah. Looking back. That's not a way to perform. Hey, but yeah, so in hindsight, I probably would have just booked a babysitter and not had him there. at them, you know, in the moment, it felt like the right thing to do to have him there with us. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think snatches of time is probably the best way to describe, especially those early days when you know, you're fairly sleep deprived, or, you know, they're very kids are very young. Yeah. Like parenting is like a lifelong journey. Like you're never not a parent, you're always on. But those early years, that, like the time that is required of you is very demanding. Yeah, that's it, that changes when they get older, which is really great. And I'm sort of, I think, you know, enjoying the benefits of that now. But also, they become more complex human beings. So I find it emotionally more challenging now. Yeah. But I am getting sleep. And I go somewhere during the day, and my son, gets himself to school, gets himself home, if he wants to go out on the weekend, like, we're at that stage where I'm just like, Oh, my goodness, like so independent. It's brilliant. I love it. And I'm so happy for him because he's obviously enjoying that independence. And yeah, when you think back to just like, oh, you couldn't leave me for more than two hours? Because it is so nice to be in that space. But yeah, then you I don't know. Because you you said you've got a 14 year old that I worry one out or I'm not emotionally like, oh, yeah, it's a whole different ballgame. Isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, like, yeah, the emotionally draining is a good way of describing it. Because you're, yeah, you're just you're trying to solve problems for him. I help him through things and issues with mental health. And yes, yes. This Yeah. Like you become a psychologist. And yeah, my sister in law, Nicole said recently because her kids are sort of my age, but we have nephews and nieces. Who are that younger age, that sort of baby toddler. And yeah, like, she just sort of commented like in a family thread recently, like, Oh, those beautiful days. I miss them. Like, yeah, they were demanding, but they weren't complex. Like, Oh, I feel every word of that. Yeah. So it's a different type of energy that you're pouring into your children, but you never stop. And I'm sure when they're 20 3040. Like, you'll That's it, isn't it? Yeah. It'll be it'll be something it'll be different again. It'll be Yeah, another thing. seems insane to say this, but then maybe there'll be grandkids and you're like, yeah, what's my role here? But I'm gonna use to believe that I'm still way too young to even consider that. So. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I'll come back to you in like 30 is time when you're doing the grandmother artist. thing. That's awesome. Well, I won't have to worry about one of my kids, because my eldest has told me that he's never having children because it's just too hard. He's seen what we were going through. He's living with a six year old. So he's like, I'm not having kids. We're modeling like, how hard it is. Yeah. Yeah.Because you're gonna want to tow back to? So one of the questions I asked my mums is about before you had kids, what was your influences for your art? And then after you have kids? So asking you this is going to be a little bit different? Because I mean, I'm sure you're going to have some, you know, obviously, to music when you're a child, but in terms of what's influenced you, have you noticed that that has changed? Or how you look at your music? Or I don't know what what sort of changes has your own creativity gone through? As you became a mom? Yeah, I think I think the thing? That's a great question. Like, musically, my influences were pretty broad growing up, and I don't think that's changed. You know, like, one day, all I want to do is listen to Abba. And then the next thing I just want to listen to, like, you know, I actually listened to a lot of classical and choral music, and I don't make that music. But it's often what inspires me the harmony in that is so rich, I love harmony. Actually, that's like probably a big part of what I'm drawn to as a musician is harmony and melody. And so I listen to a lot of music that feels quite dense and rich in that way. As I said before, like before my son came along, I was training more in that sort of jazz wealth, and so was playing quite a lot of jazz music. And a lot of those sort of early jazz singers really inspired me in terms of their vocal sound. So like I absolutely I do absolutely love Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Billie Holiday. huge Beatles fan of course. Yes. My parents pretty much raised me on on the Beatles. And again, their harmony always three. In terms of the Yeah, what inspires me now I think the one thing I feel like my 20s were a little different, right? So a lot of music that's often about like, heartbreak and breaking up, or will we or won't we like just for whatever reason, like I kind of, I found my partner quite young. And we had quite a different experience, like in our 20s. And so I guess sometimes that music even I can really love it. It's not necessarily themes that I'm super drawn to. I guess I'm drawn to themes, like Yeah, so I really loved clear that Bowditch I've never known whether it's Bowditch about it, by the way, but you know what I mean? Yes, I do know, album that came up, actually, when my son was quite little. That was the whole theme was grief. Yeah, I, that had a huge impact on me, because I was like, Oh, you can write a whole album on grief. Like, you don't have to write a whole album on like, you broke up with me, and I'm gonna break up with you. And now we're back together. Because I guess a lot of like, songs in the popular culture are still like, some version of a love song. Yet she wrote this incredible indie pop album on grief. So do you remember what the name of that album was? I do now it was what was left. So it was. That's funny that I just said it. Yes. So she made the album in 2005. And my son was born 2006. So I really remember listening to that. I don't even remember that I was stuck in a lot of grief at the time. But it was more like there were growing up themes. You know, there were real life themes. And they were themes that I kind of that really resonated with me so that that album actually had a huge impact because it showed me that there were other things I could write about. And I could write about things that were really real to me. You know, one of the songs that is on my new album that is still you know, in we're in the process of making and releasing is actually just all without boundaries, I would not have written a song about boundaries when I was 18. Because it's not very sexy at all. I really like it. You know, like, that stuff's important to me. Yes. So, so that album had huge impacts and a huge impact on me. from more of a lyrical perspective, yeah. And then like, musically, my tastes have just never really changed because they were always broad to begin with. And they remain really broad. So I listened to a lot of music that I know I'll never make, like I listen to a lot of neo soul. I'm probably not going to make me I mean, I love it. You know, Jill Scott is one of my favorite singers. And I also just know straight up that I will never sound anything like Jill Scott or make me look like us. But I still love absolutely love her. So I don't. Yeah, don't necessarily always listen to a lot of music that's similar to the music I make. But I don't know, I think that can really make help you be really well rounded to when you're really open to all sorts of styles. And, yeah, I'm so sorry. That's my dog. Oh, hey, puppy. Sorry. I had my cat in here before and she's got a little bell on a collar. And I was like, Don't scratch your head. It's actually not much of a back and normally I think maybe another dog walk by what sort of dog is he? He's a stuffy cross. We don't know what we use in rescue dog. Yeah, and he's one my heart big. Heart. Yeah, he's funny. Yesterday, I interviewed a lady and she had a stuffy as well. Oh, really? And it my son's been on this bandwagon that he wants to get a stuffy and I was like maybe the universe is telling me something. While banjo is a real sweetheart. Yeah, like he was pretty full on when we got him because he was a rescue and hadn't. Yeah, he we pretty much were starting from scratch with him. Yeah, yeah, he's just Yeah, cuddly and but anyway, I think he's still packing now. Good job AJ. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I was a new member too. Yeah, when you saying before about influences, but they're not necessarily what you put in your music. I appreciate the Beatles so much because of what they've allowed me to understand about how you can present your music. Like, you can do whatever the hell you want. Like, honestly, I play this. And like if you want to, like play, record your guitar solo, and then play it backwards. You can do that. And then you can. But the thing that got me was like, changes of tempo within songs and different elements that go together to make the same song but it's like you're just grabbing stuff from everywhere. And I was just like, I don't have I had a poster on my wall. I've got my Abbott poster up there. And I did have one but it failed. Me Oh my God, and harmonies, harmonies just a massive thing that I love so much. Yeah, it's just like, can just be shown what's like, same thing with your example. With clear it's like, you can write an album on whatever you'd like. Like, I call it the Taylor Swift music like the we broke up and we're getting back together. And then you didn't call me about you know, all this, which I see is really frivolous now, because I'm, you know, happily married and have lots of, you know, security about my life. But I think you know, I can understand where that fits in. But yeah, there's just so much depth to stuff and a singer songwriter that I really admire. Jen lash, I'm not sure if you've heard of Jen. She's a South Australian artist. And look her up. I think you'd really like her music. She's, and she's been a guest on my podcast, and I kind of see her as a bit of a mentor. I don't know if she knows that. Hi. All my mentors have no idea that they might Yes. She inspired me to be able to write songs about really difficult subjects, but make them really listening. So the musical in her words, the musical treatment that she gives that song allows it to be like received by people sort of thing. And about a topic that's very jarring. Yeah, maybe maybe the music can be jarring, too. But maybe you're gonna let more people in if allows that. Yeah. And so yeah, she really inspired me With a song that she wrote about postnatal depression called called Wolf, and when I heard I saw she sang it live. She came down here as part of a sort of a was called Palomino nights at the wall shed it was in this old watershed down in Glencoe. And she performed in this space and when I heard that song, I just went, oh my god, like it was like someone had slapped me in the face and gone. Yeah, you can do stuff about anything. Yeah, so she's really inspired me. Jen lash. Okay. Look her up. Jen's amazing. I love Jen so much. And she's listened to her episode, because she's got such an amazing way of speaking the way she articulates things. She's just such a wordsmith like, Ah, just love. I will definitely listen. Yeah. Yeah, just knowing that you can write about anything, I think was really? Yeah, that's definitely what that clear album did for me. And then you've got that album. She bought out years later, which was the winter I chose happiness, where the theme was almost about this kind of like, so she done his album about grief. And then years later, she did this album. But it wasn't that frivolous happiness. It was, like real choice. Like it was like an oyster kind of. And so again, that another album she might use later also had huge impacts on me like, oh, you can write about happiness without being cheesy. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So yeah, just, yeah. How good is music? So lucky? This? Pretty much you will never hear it all, you know? Yeah. Yeah. People always, actually, because I work with students. They're often like, oh, have you heard blah, blah, blah. And I'll be someone a bit younger. So someone I haven't heard of. And, you know, my mind is just continually blown. Yeah. Let's see. I go through phases, like where I deliberately don't listen to current music, because I want to stay in the past in some way. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to admit that I don't know what's happening right now in music. Like I just I like to know, I like to be able to sing along and I know what's coming. But then sometimes I think I'm missing out on so much, if I don't you know it, because there's so much amazing stuff being done. Some of it's a lot of crap. But there is a lot of crap. There is a lot of crap. And I think therefore we sort of go, it's all crap. Yeah, you can kind of like wade through the crap. There is also just some amazing. Yeah, there's sort of amazing music being made at the moment. But it's also not the music that's necessarily in the top 20. So yeah, that's it is more. Yeah. And I think over the years, I've become a lot. Obviously, as you get older, you understand things, you understand how things work, and the thought the whole thing about the NSA pop, you know, in inverted commas, because it's not necessarily I don't know, any music can be popular, but I'm talking about in a commercial sense. Yeah, it is really is just a big business. You know, it's just about producers, people, finding people, people making money off those people and, and the person themselves becomes the product. And yeah, always freaks me out a bit, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've come, I've come quite jaded of that. And, and not wanting to care. Like, I know, like, commercial radio is literally commercial radio. Like, it's just people, they pay the money to have the songs on. And so I've had a bit of a wake up call, like, for many years, it's like, I just want to be, I want to be on the radio, I want my songs on the radio. And then when I understood it, I was like, no, actually, I want my songs on community radio, because that's where the relationships are. And that's where your people care about the songs they're playing. They have a choice about the songs they're playing, you know? Yeah, so that yeah, no, that's it. Yeah, you're so right. Like, I mean, yeah. Also, I think just the way music and how people listen to music is changing. So I'm not even sure anymore, that being getting on the radio isn't necessarily the golden ones. Still space for it. And especially think there's space for community radio, like here in Melbourne, we've got like PBS and triple out there, and they're huge stations, and they're amazing. And you know, to be on one of those stations. I think it's fantastic. But yeah, I don't know, you know, there are so many ways people can access music now that, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's probably one of many ways you can reach an audience, but maybe not sort of the only way. Yeah, it used to feel Yeah, absolutely. Quite, sort of, unless you were on the radio. It was like no one ever heard. You know, you can pay people to put your music on things and they were know, yeah, totally. But I mean, it's the world, isn't it? Yeah. Do you very expensive to be an independent musician, you know? Yeah, that'sthe thing. Isn't it no one tapped me on the shoulder and goes, Hi, here's heap of money to record. Yeah, women? Oh, no, I'll do this and that for you. It's very parenting into the mix. I think it's, and I think that's part of the challenge is, I really believe in my music, I really do. I really think it's pretty good. You know, like, I'm not saying I'm the best out there or anything like that. But I know I can sing. I know I can write I know, I'm making a pretty good record. But when my confidence starts to fall down big time is actually when I start realizing like the costs in like releasing it and releasing it. Well. You know, whether it's paying a publicist or making a video or whatever, yeah. And then when you have children in the mix, it can be really hard to justify those costs when, you know, you've got to buy school uniforms, and CDs in classes and soccer, you know, like, it can seem really self indulgent, that you're really selfish. Yeah. So it's so that's probably where I'm finding myself at the moment a bit like, the confidence in the music is there again, which is so nice, you know? Because obviously, we have times where it's not. Yeah, but it's that kind of this is, this is such an endeavor to embark on. And how can I justify I can totally appreciate that. Like my husband said to me, when I print because I like to print say days and albums, because I think people's people still like to put things in means. I found what I when I used to play a lot of folk festivals, and I found that the seat Yeah, you still needed CDs. So like, yeah, so obviously, they're not gone. Yeah, I don't think they're gone. For them to be gone. Yeah, people are also buying finally again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. People like a tangible thing, man. Yeah. And I think that the amount of effort that I end the people I'm, like, work with to do my artwork. I think that it deserves a bigger, you know, platform than just a tiny little square on the iPhone or whatever. You know, the actual your actual artwork. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, my husband is like, have you worked here? How many? So I should preface this, my husband's a financial planner, right? We can be really handy are really annoying. We could not be different worlds, honestly. So yeah, it's like, how many CDs do you have to sell to be able to make your money back? I'm just like, I am not thinking about this. I'm thinking about creating my music and giving it to the world. That is, I know, thinking about and I remember like me with my like pea size, math brain. first EP and sort of trying to do the maths and in the arm, like I can't do the bloody maths, I'm just going to do it like, yeah. And, you know, probably to be honest, years later, having a few boxes of CDs still stashed under a bit. Think it's the same for everybody. It's always a boxer CD so. Now I guess that this topic is sort of leading into something that I love to talk to moms about. And it sounds nasty when I say I love to talk to you about your mom guilt. But I find it such a fascinating topic. Yeah, we put ourselves aside like literally what we've just been talking about, like, we feel like we have to justify ourselves because you know, that money could be paid for the school fees, or could be for the groceries, you know, how how do you sort of approach that mom guilt thing? First of all, for years, I really resisted the term. And even with credit, I'd be like, Well, I don't have no guilt. Good on me. I don't believe in it. It's bullshit, and I don't have it. And then in the last few years, like of course I have, I experienced guilt as a human being and part of that is around my mothering. So yes, technically, I experienced mother guilt. I experience it often around time. So even though my kids are a lot older, my daughter in particular, she really misses me when I do things. And in many ways that's very sweet. And in other ways, it's really had, um, I can be like, you know, spending a fair amount of time and energy on my art, which I think is really fair, because I also give a lot of energy to other people. And she'll actually like, you know, if I'm, I don't know, maybe I was at the studio all day and all night and didn't get home like, and I try my best to like, you know, communicate that in advance that maybe once or twice where like, because they're not home like, you know Dad's home. So it's not like they're home alone. But that can be a real, like, she can be really upset with me that the next day was just like, I didn't know, I didn't know you would be out too late and well, and I feel really bad around that stuff. So I'm trying to get trying to get better at like, not changing what I do, because I think it's really reasonable that I'm sometimes busy doing stuff that almost I think I could, yeah, so I can experience guilt around that, kind of like the time away that it can be. And like I said before, I don't even know if it's guilt, but it's maybe like the justification around like, the financial side of things. Like I think the reality is, like, we sort of, we grew up in a world where the idea of being a musician, so 2025 years ago, it was like, Well, you just get good, and then you meet the right people, and then you get signed to a contract, and they'll give you lots of money, and you'll make records, and actually realizing that happens to such a small percentage of including musicians who we would consider to be quite big and successful. Like, they're still doing it in a very different way, I have friends who I would consider like, on paper to be much more successful than I am as musicians, and they're still working other jobs or, you know, looking for funding for certain things, you know, so it's a very, most of us not doing it that way. And the reality that I'm sort of facing at the moment, really, with this album that I'm making is that it's costing quite a bit to make. So not only am I not making money, at the moment, I'm actually spending money to make my own art, that's not a job. It's not like it's when you think about what a job, you go to work, and you get paid. I'm going I'm I'm doing a lot of work. And also forking out money. So so the whole kind of, what am I actually doing? And why am I doing it can kind of creep in sometimes because it's not if you're if you know, I call it work, I call it like, you know, I'm an artist, and I'm working and I'm this is my project. But if I'm really honest, right now, it's sort of not work. It's, it's not bringing in, it's not bringing home the bacon. So I think the guilt can then arise when because we live in a capitalist society, where we value money. So I find it much easier, even now, even after all these years, it's much easier for me emotionally, to ask, for instance, for someone to babysit my kids, because I'm teaching because teaching brings home money. And so there's like, this is the most important thing in the world that we all need to do, we all need to make money, because that's the society we live in. And I need to go and make that money. So I feel quite justified. There's that word again, in getting help with the kids because we've got to make that money. But then I really can struggle with the same kind of asking for help or reprioritizing things to say, like make this record because it's not bringing in the money. And I think that comes down to Yeah, like we live in a society that still doesn't value things. Paying. So I trying to really, really kind of remind myself that this is an important expression of who I am. And that's why I have to give it time, and maybe that's why I even have to give up. You know, money. Because, yeah, it's I don't know, I hate talking about money, it makes everyone feel really uncomfortable. But I think it's also really important. It's a huge part of it can be a very big barrier to making art. And, yeah, when you have a family, it can be a barrier that you put on yourself because it just doesn't feel kind of right. But I'm really sort of trying to lean into the feeling that I have that for me at the moment. It is right and it is okay. But yeah, so I think it's really interesting, I think, yeah, how what we value in this society still often comes down to like, how much money you make from it. But why not just think of all the great artists you know, like, I mean, it's such a it's such a cliched example. that Van Gogh, you know, didn't make any money and we all now know that he's just the most brilliant artist. So just trying to like remember that this art is important and to try and not feel that guilt, whether it's the financial guilt or the time away guilt, which is a big one that I tend to feel. Well, the other the other guilt that I can sometimes feel is when I'm, and I'm sure a lot of parents might relate to this is when I really go for it, like I'm diving into a really creative space, whether it's just like, oh my god, like these songs are just churning within me or like I've booked out a few days in the studio, I'm just going for it, I'm the the first thing to kind of fall apart is just all the shit at home like dishes, washing, yep, eating healthy food. And again, I think that's a very sexy thing to talk about, like it's pretty boring and unglamorous. But part of our job as parents, I guess, is to kind of keep on top of some of that stuff. And I'm very, very aware that I have a partner who does more than 50% of that stuff. So I really can't complain. Especially, you know, I speak to a lot of females with male partners and, and find out that even though it's 2022, they still seem to seem to take on a huge percentage of that, and I know that I actually don't so I'm very, very fortunate. However, yeah, I can still feel like when I'm really kind of diving into some artistic spaces, mentally or emotionally, the house just turns to absolute shit. And, and that can actually bring up a bit of guilt for me too. Like, well, we're eating takeaway again, because I don't have time to cook because I've written five songs. Yeah. Yeah, so that's just another aspect of mom guilt that I definitely feel and I try to be okay with. exists, and we just have to, like, kind of know that it exists and acknowledge it. Like, I'm feeling guilty right now. Why is that reasonable? Am I being too hard on myself? Actually, it's, it's really fine that I've done those things, and it's fine. And then, you know, the, the other thing we've got to remember is occasionally guilt is healthy, and it is telling us something. Yeah, maybe I'm feeling mom guilt, because I actually haven't spoken to my kids for days. And I need to fix that, you know, like, so actually, like, might Yeah, I just try to be aware of how I feel, and then kind of sit with it, and then work through whether it's like, you know, a feeling that I need to kind of listen to or a feeling that I can sort of go that that's just like your kind of inner critic getting pretty loud in your head. Yeah, it can really your inner critic has one or two important things to say as well. So just knowing you is unhealthy, and when it might actually be just telling you something that you better like, come on. Yeah, no, that is the fourth time this week. They've beaten junk. So maybe it's really important tomorrow to prioritize some vegetables. You know what I mean? Like, so? Absolutely. I think yeah, I think you're right, I think you can definitely serve a purpose. It's definitely not a place. Yeah. But then when it turns into this, and I, whenever I say, ma'am, you I do the air quotes, because I feel like it's just the term has been constructed by a new social media hashtag, you know, it's this theme. This this plan, and, and that's why I hate saying it, but I feel like it's when I say, Do you feel guilty? That sounds really creepy. You know? You're not really, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that guilt? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty. Can we all please feel guilty together? It's just on the women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, we'll see. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? over last year, I did a couple of Father's Day episodes, especially ones where I chatted to dads about and it's it's a different kind of guilt. Yeah, they certainly feel it. But just, I think they're not expected to feel I think that's the difference. We're the ones who are supposed to wear it. Yeah, yeah, totally. And even like, I'm, like I said before, like, we've sort of really set our lives up, in a way, you know, in our family where I guess we don't necessarily play those traditional gender roles. Like, at the moment, I work more than my husband, like an extra day, he does all the washing, because I'm really bad at it. I don't know, he's actually much better at like remembering the admin sort of stuff around, you know, our that notice needs to be handed in. And we've got to pay that, you know, I'm pretty bad at all of that. So even though I live in a relationship that has really kind of, we've really intentionally tried to not just play those roles that can fall on you, because you are male, or female or whatever. Even within that year, I think I experienced more of the emotional kind of guilt. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll ask him and find out that. Maybe, yeah, maybe. So even if within your kind of nucleus family, you've got something really going on. That's pretty kind of countercultural, or whatever. We still are in a society that puts pressure on women and mothers to do it all and be at all. Yeah. And so yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not feeling guilty about the parenting and I'm really focusing on the parenting and, you know, doing great there, then I sort of start to feel a bit guilty about, oh, I'm not really doing any art or singing. So like, it's a little. A little sometimes that's just a load of crap. Whoever said that. He was the first person that said that should just because it mean, you can't you can, I heard someone say you can do it all. But you can't do it all at the same time. You know, like you go through phases in your life where, you know, your children are young. So you're focusing on your children, then you do your art, like, you can't, you can't do it all, you physically cannot do it all and also, mentally and in your heart. You can't do it all because you're torn all over the place. You know, totally. I also think I think just the way my brain works is I'm not very good at multitasking. So I think those people like I'm really good at like, diving in deep. So if I'm so I'm writing today, I'm probably just long writing. And if I'm just like, all in with like, hey, it's my day off, and I'm going to clean the house and I'm going to cook a really nice dinner and I'm going to pick my daughter up from school and we're going to go out for a milkshake, then I'm going to do that really, really well to not very good at trying to do both of those things at once. Yeah, I've always said yeah, you can do it all if you want to do it all pretty badly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you spread yourself so thin that nothing gets done. I don't wanna say well, but to the way that you probably want it to be done. You know? Yeah. Nice myth, isn't it? It's an urban myth. So going back to your your music and your identity, how you see yourself as a mother and as a musician and an artist, is it really important to you that your children's see, and I don't want to say I'm putting it in quotes, again, that you're just a mom, because you're never just a mom, that you are contributing to the world. Your your voice is being heard what you're saying is a value. Is that something that is important to you? Yeah, I think it's extremely important to me, both of my children in very different ways, obviously, showing to me that they're very creative people. And so I we really want to nurture that in them. Like my son is an amazing writer, like really incredible writer. My daughter is a natural dancer. And actually, funnily enough, I think she's also a really good singer, too. I have to like, listen out when she doesn't know I'm hearing it. Because I'm a singer. Yeah, there's some stuff there that we'll probably have to unpack that one day because yeah, she's a really great singer. When she was really little, I'd hear her in her room, listening to music, but harmonizing Oh, what? Oh, okay. Um, but she's pretty. She's done it a bit in the past in the last few years, like, if I'm like, Hey, John is seeing this, she's actually pretty reluctant. And that's fine. Like, I'm so not gonna push that. But I think she does have some natural talent there. Anyway, they're both really creative. And I think that's so beautiful. And so I would hate to be kind of creating an environment where they don't see that that's a really normal thing that you would want to foster their dad to. He's very creative. He he like, he wouldn't call himself a professional musician, but he loves music, and he plays in the past. He hasn't done it for a while, but he used to do like, some street art. He's always building things, you know, I'll say something like, oh, we need a box to plant some daffodils in and literally the next day. He's just found some wood and made a box. So and yes, he's a good visual artist. So pink growing up. I hope seeing that art is something that nourishes you. And, and yeah, I hope I hope I'm not I hope I'm modeling to them that I really love music, I guess the one worry I have is that they might see all the stress behind it. Yeah, I think they Yeah, so I know, it's really important to me that they know that creativity in whatever way or shape, you know, like, it doesn't have to be music. But creativity is something to be that we should honor and chat and spend time on. And that doesn't have to make you money. And if you make your living, you know, my son grows up one day to be a writer, my daughter grows up Monday to be a dancer. Wow, how amazing. But that's not even what I mean. It's it's about expression and about, you know how happy they are actually, when they do those things. And actually, I think when they see me when you strip away or they're like, I'm trying to be an independent music in the world, and I'm applying for funding, and I'm very, very strict like that when they actually see me like sit at the piano and just play and just seeing this seeing me really in my most pure kind of happy state. And they see that all the time. Yeah. So. So I think I'm more I'm hope that I'm modeling to them that in whatever way it looks like for you. And it can change as you change that creativity is just a really important thing to nurture within yourself. Because I think everyone is creative. Actually. Everyone. Yeah, but not all of them have been taught that that's okay. Or it's worth fostering or looking after? Yeah, I think. And maybe this is, I think, based on my experience with some people I've met along the way that a lot of angry people I know, are people who are not allowing themselves to be very creative and switch somewhere. And they just sort of hate everyone. And I really think that if you are if you allow yourself to, you know, yeah. Be creative. However, that is. I think you just yeah, like it's a bit cliche, but you're sort of tending to your soul a little bit. And then I think you just live in the world in a more well rounded, happy away. Yeah. So yeah, put that so well. Thank you. Very important to us, actually, as a family that we yeah, we do it and therefore hopefully, they just naturally do it, too. Yeah, that's it. Like like yourself growing up in your family, you saw that that is just part of a normal, everyday existence. This is not something that's out of the ordinary. You maybe didn't realize that till later. But, you know, this is a perfectly acceptable way to live your life like you don't have to be afraid of this. Yeah. And there have been times you know, when like, the kids were little aware, I wasn't spending heaps of time on music, but I actually was always being creative. So when I wasn't making music, I was I was writing the scenes. And when I wasn't writing scenes, I was like, bought a sewing machine. And I was trying to sew think I wasn't very good. But like I was sewing. Yeah, quarter like gardening now for me is a big one, like, so it's also like music is the thing that I come back to because I think, I don't know. It's like, it's in my DNA. It's who I am. And it's how I express myself in the world. But also just there are so yeah, showing them that there's just so many ways to be creative. Yeah, they can be small. They don't have to be big. Yeah, that's it and they don't have to be for anybody else. And they don't have to be clever monetary value placed on the me that they can be something. It's something for yourself, you know, so important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Best Use of my garden and losses, concert was born? Can you share with us what you might have coming up? You mentioned about your album that you're working on? Yeah. Have you got? And also have you got? I mean, I guess shows us starting up again in the world have you got anything you want to share that you've got coming up? Oh, so that Yeah, so the big, big one for me at the moment is the album that I've been making. And it's been a really long labor of love, like I always knew it would take time. But then right in the middle of it, we had a two year pandemic, which has had so many impacts a, it has impacts on time, because you can't like get to the studio. And then the other thing, like we've talked, we've talked about money a little bit today. But one of the things I do as a singer is, you know, when I do that backing vocals gig or I go on tour with that person on BBS, or I do that session work, that all generally gets generated back into the art that I make. So I lost all of that work. So then so so it's not just the time factor has slowed the record down, but it's actually the the income coming in to generate back into it slowed down as well. So COVID has really impacted it in a really huge way. However, we're really close to finish, like we finished recording the music, we're now mixing it and mastering it. And the hope was to release it at the start of this year. And now it's like we're going to release it towards the end of this year. And again, like you can have a plan. I don't know, I'm actually feeling really good about that. Now, I'd like you to have said right at the start, like, you've got time, you don't need to rush. Yeah. And I, I had a bit of an opportunity last year where I did something on TV. And so I was like, right, I've got to release it now because I got to ride that wave I'm gonna work out and I was like, Oh, I really disheartened by that. But in hindsight, it would have been rushed. And it actually wouldn't have been very good. And, and now I feel really good about sort of almost mapping out, you know, I don't know, like a six month plan and, you know, sharing the music, my music with the world really well and properly. So I don't have any gigs booked at the moment, because I'm super focused on the album. And what like, you know, as much as I hate to say it, social media plays a really big role in building my audience. So like, if anyone listening to this wants to follow me on the socials that would really be amazing. Or even sign up to my mailing list. Yeah, yeah, definitely put all the links, I'll put all the links in for people there. Cool. That would be really great. You know, that is sort of these days, I guess how we reach to a certain extent, at least, our audience, and of course, I would like to be gigging again. But I'm also really pacing myself, I want to do things well. Yeah. I don't want to just be throwing things together and quickly hopping back on stage. So we yeah, we will definitely be playing some shows when the album comes out, or there's single release or whatever. But yeah, choosing to take my time choosing to remember. Yeah, that I've got time. Yeah, that's what I think I think we can all take something from that, that it's, you know, we have got time. We don't have to rush. It's not a race and not to do things at our own pace. Yeah, totally. And obviously, the flip side to that is like, sometimes you need to give yourself a deadline. Otherwise, maybe I'll just be doing this for the next 10 years. So I know the deadline for me is by the end of this year, but what that looks like I still don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing and yeah, maybe yeah, if people find me on social media, then yeah, if a gig pops up, and sometimes I'm doing gigs for other people, you know, like, I might be backing vocals for someone and I can share that as well. Yeah, but at the moment, I'm actually yeah, just tucked away doing all the behind the scenes work. Yeah, all the really hard work. Oh, my God, I know, right? Jumping on stage at the NCAA. Put me in front of like 1000 people or 2000 people and tell me to sing no problem. Put me in a room with like two people where I'm like asking for funding and I'll be days before Yeah. And that's the thing too, like, unless you're in that musician, where Old, or even the artists will, all you see is that in result, all we see is that in product, so you don't understand all the stuff that goes in behind the scenes to make that product, you know? True and like, you know, I think I think I read it somewhere that way, often comparing our kind of, like, we know what we're doing behind the scenes. So we know how hard it is and how messy it is and how not not ready it is yet we can get that to like what everyone else's end product that they're showing online is, and I think it's we're gonna do that too. Like, eventually, when I released this album, it's probably going to look quite nice and shiny and like, hey, look, but like, yeah, we're hearing the journey, you know, to the destination of others. And that's not a very smart thing to do. Probably not very helpful. Your, your album journey sounds like mine, mine is just taking forever. And I don't care because I hate sitting. I hate setting deadlines, because I hate that pressure. Because you know, life happens and you have children. And you know, you can't just go by, I have to do this for my 14 year old having a breakdown, like Italy's life, and it's so good. So I'm working with these producers who are overseas, and they just only because we have nothing here and that Gambia we don't have access to any sort of recording studios or anything. And again, I'm not going to tell you I know this is the world now. You know, it's amazing. And sorry, I'm just gonna blog for a sec. But yeah, they're in Spain and Argentina. So I basically send them a video of what I want, I bang out the chords on my old Casio and say, this is the idea I've got, then they send back their idea made on computer instruments. And always I say yes, that's amazing, because it always is. And so then they, they organize the musicians to play it properly. Then they send it back and I do my vocals and then they mix it. So they're doing everything apart from mastering it. So it's just like, and I can just sit here in my little room in the middle of nowhere. And this album and I'm, it's so wonderful. I think, you know, there's so much stuff around technology that can bother me and just, and then I hear a story like that. And I'm so excited. I'm like, that's now a possibility. You're working with producers saying, you know, and me years ago, to know that this was coming that this was possible, I would never have believed it. You know, I always had this idea that I live in this little town. I didn't I never wanted to leave my little town because I love it. You know, I was born here. I've got my kids here. Even Adelaide, it's only five hours away, or Melbourne five hours away. But it's a different world. So I've never wanted to pick up and go right, I'm gonna go there and make my career. It's like, No, I want to do it in my, in my own terms in my own way. And it's like, finally the time has come. I can do it. You know. I love that. Yeah. bloom where you're planted, you know? Yes. You know, other people might have a completely different, you know, they do want to move and they want. And that's great. But I agree like, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to. That's the cool thing about being an artist. You can forge your own way. There's actually no real like, we think there's a way you've got to do it. But then when you start to talk people, everyone's winging it. Yeah. That's for some people that's moving overseas for other people. It's so not that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really exciting. Well, I can't wait to hear it. You'll be waiting a bit longer. I know these things take time. Okay, with that, I think yeah, and that's thing too, if you if you're the sort of person that can be settled and go, Okay, when it's ready, that's fine. You can you can do this. But if you're the sort of person it's like, I have to do I have to get done. You could not do this. You'd be off to wherever to record but you know, that's the great thing, too. We're all so different. And that's what makes the world go yeah, we're all doing the same thing. Today, Ms. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. I really loved it. Thank you so much. You're so lovely to talk to me about music and I love talking about my kids. So it's a pretty it's a pretty nice thing to do to sit down and have a chat with you. Yeah, no, thanks. It's been great. I've loved it. Always good. Always good to get a bit of Beatles chat in there somewhere. Anytime, Ill have to tell you my Paul McCartney story another time. Oh, okay. All right, To be continued. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review Are you following or subscribing to the podcast? Or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested? If you or someone you know who'd like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Jillian Lauren US best selling author + journalist S2 Ep70 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am thrilled to welcome Jillian Lauren to the podcast this week, a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock + roll wife + mother of 2 based in Los Angeles, United States Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey and graduated from Newark Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University. Soon after, she started exotic dancing in New York at the Kit Kat Club + became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the Prince of Brunei for 18 months. When Jillian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with an Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career, with Jillian's work since appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles Magazine. Jillian is a New York Times Best Selling author of 2 memoirs Some Girls: My Life in a Harem , about her experience as The Harem Girl, and Everything You Ever Wanted about her journey of adopting her son Tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tariku came to the family as an 18 month old, and brought with him intense trauma responses and during the next few years Jillian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her instincts. Jillian and her husband Scott Shriner (bassist from Weezer) added to their family in 2015 when they adopted through the US foster system their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and has an autism diagnosis. She has also written a fiction novel entitled Pretty and has an upcoming novel based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel Little called Behold the Monster coming out in 2023 . Several of Jillian’s manuscripts are being developed into TV + Film projects the most recent being Confronting a Serial Killer released on STARZ. The five-episode series tells the story of the relationship between Jillian Lauren + the most prolific serial killer in American history Sam Little, and her work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered, before he passes away. **This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss + miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer and does contain a bit of swearing** Visit Jillian's website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age + ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Jillian Lauren. Julian is a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock and roll wife and mother of two based in Los Angeles in the United States. Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey, and graduated from New York Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University and soon after started exotic dancing at the KitKat club and became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the prince of Brunei, where she stayed for 18 months. When Julian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career with Julian's work now appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles magazine. Julian is a New York Times best selling author of two memoirs, some girls my life in a harem about her experience as the harem girl and everything you ever wanted about her journey of adopting her son tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tarik, who came to the family as an 18 month old and brought with him intense trauma responses, and during the next few years, Julian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her own instincts. Jillian and her husband, Scott Shriner, the bass player from Weezer, added to their family in 2015. When they adopted through the US foster system, their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and an autism diagnosis. She's also written a fictional novel entitled prissy, and has an upcoming novel. Based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel little called Behold The Monster coming out in 2023 Several of Julian's manuscripts are being developed into TV and film projects, the most recent being confronting a serial killer released on stars. The five episode series tells the story of the relationship between Julian and the most prolific serial killer in American history, Sam little and Julian's work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered before he passes away. This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss and miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer, and it does contain a bit of swearing. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient new age music trio, LM J, which is comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Julian. It's a real pleasure to meet you. It is so nice to be here. Yeah. And it's funny. I feel like I kind of know I don't know you but I know so much about you through the memoirs that you've written. How did you first sort of get into writing? Well, I have kept a journal since I was eight. So I always wrote always, like I had that, you know, muscle in place. But you know, I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be director I want to be anything but a writer and it really took you know, a journey through some unusual places until I landed where I belong, you know, until I I said to myself, like, what is it that has been consistent in my life for all these years? What do you think? What do you think you were sort of pushing back against the writing that you didn't sort of validate it really hard? Really hard. It's, it's, it's hard to finish. It's hard to start. It's just hard. Like, if you can possibly choose anything else choose anything else? Well, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And, and being a memoirist, it's, you're very, you're being very vulnerable, which I want to commend you for too, because the things that you're sharing, you know, people can relate to, and it opens these opportunities for conversations, which are really important. Did you find was that the first sort of style of writing that you went to? Like, I guess, because if you're journaling in your diary, no, because I couldn't sell my first novel. Yeah. That's the memoir. To tell you the truth. I wanted nothing more than to never write that memoir. Yeah. Why to never write some girls, because I knew I knew was sensational. Like that it would get bought, very likely, you know, because I'm not the only woman who was over there. But, you know, I'm also a real writer. Yes. There are so many book clubs I go to where they're like, do you write your own book? I'm like, I'm the writer. Yeah. I'm not like a celebrity with a ghostwriter. Um, yeah, that's it. But it was really scary. And I knew what I was doing. And I tried very hard to eat much more New York curry. And that's always you know, how I saw myself, you know, at the Algonquin club or something, and I'm like, okay, given the times. And, you know, and they were like, nah, nah. And I had just gotten out of graduate school, and I started librarian school, I started to get my master's in library science, because I was starting to think like, you know, I need a plan B. And my husband was like, you know, when I said, I would support you through graduate school. That wasn't like, forever of graduate school. So, like, can you tell me what the plan is here? And, and I was like, you know, what gave me three months. Give me just give me three months, I have this one card left to play. And I talked to my agent. And you know, she's like, I can't sell this. I'm sorry. I love it. I can't sell it. And I was like, Well, you know, I've been thinking writing a memoir, this really interesting thing happened to me, I was the Mistress of the principle and I when I was a teenager, and she was like, what? Job was on the table, you know, like, how have you not told me this before? And I was like, I didn't want to write about it. That's why and, you know, and she was like, Well, do you genuinely feel like you're ready to write about it now? Like, consider all the consequences? Consider, you know, what it means to become memoirist. Consider you're going to be the heroine girl for the rest of her life. When she did you get to a certain point where you're like, okay, not so bad. Not so bad harem girl but I that was actually a quote from one of the other women who was who was in printer, who I still keep in touch with and yeah, you know, she said, like, I mean, thank God, I just something crazy. That's something like that. Not many people could say that. They've had an exciting experience like that. And it's such an exciting life. There is definitely an element of, of edge pushing to my life. You know, I'm an adrenaline junkie. I'm super curious. I always want to see the things that people aren't looking at, you know, I want I want to see the man behind the curtain. Ilana, like, you know, just like I just have the urge to have that kind of bite out of life and it doesn't was winding up in the best places, you know. But it has given me some very interesting stories the next memoir that I've read that you wrote was everything you ever wanted. Can you share with the viewers the sorry, not the viewers, the listeners, what that books about? Everything You Ever Wanted is about the process of adopting my older son. He's 14 Now, his name is tariku. We call them T. And he was adopted from Ethiopia. And before that, we had an extensive history with infertility and that and miscarriages. A lot of miscarriages. We were just sort of reflecting on it the other day. Now that's so far in the past, and like, there was a minute, my period was late. And I was just like, oh, wow, like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, gosh, yeah, I do not have enough notice for this right now. And we were just laughing and you know, of course, you know, we would have just accepted it as a blessing it was but yeah, and you know, whether it was miscarriage, just like period or whatever, like it hadn't happened in years. So we were reflecting on how painful that journey was. And, you know, now we have teenage boys, and it's not painful to me anymore, but I can remember. Yeah, yeah, it felt like and also like, your concerns get so different. Yeah, yeah. You know, try like listening with a glass trying to figure out who's a girlfriend? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Any wants to go to Annapolis? He must be like a navy combat pilot. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, and like, he's a whole person. But, you know, I wrote this book every day, I sat down and people criticize, I'm sure as you know, you know, people, women who talk about parenting, right about parenting, or podcasts about parenting mate material about parenting, like, we're exploiting our children. And I'm like, you know, parenting is as valid and experience you know, motherhood is as valid and experience as climbing Mount Everest, or anything else, or bagging groceries, or, you know, might be kowski worked at the post office. So what I was going through was early motherhood. And, you know, and adoption, which was, you know, really exciting, an interesting process, and I was dying to write about that. And, and our beautiful like, we consider our family that we met during that trip who really changed our life. We were there were nine families all together. And we really went through something together and not to like give any spoilers but for instance, they did our paperwork wrong. So we went through the whole week there and Addis transitioning him out of the orphanage you know how painful and difficult that was and of course I have 1000 funny stories about like, you know, like he's not pooping die people other people in the house that were already parents so they were Yeah, lets us but um you know, I mean, we all still keep in touch. Yeah, that's from and when our they had written your, we were like, supposed to adopt a child up to four years old. Like that. You You know, except they wrote four months old. Yeah. This the paperwork. So we're standing there like at the embassy, I am like, I have like the baby, and ergo, we're like ready to get on a plane the next day. There's nowhere to sit. It's just like, there's nowhere to go. Everyone else got their stuff. And they just kind of like walked away from us. And we were like I mean, I was running around, like, it was, you know, like, like, there was like, an alarm that nuclear missiles were coming. Like, I was like, shaking people. They're like, where did that man go? That man who was right there? Where did that man go? Anyway, so the whole group had a chance to go home, you know, we would have had just stayed there. And they come back for us, obviously, we're going to stay there for a long time. And they all stayed with us. Yeah, could pay for. I mean, it was like, it was most unlikely group of friends. And we all still, you know, love each other kids still know each other's incredible process. So, you know, I wanted to write about that those friendships. And then, you know, realizing that T was, you know, had special needs. And there's been diagnosed and re diagnosed column what? calm a lot of things. You know, diagnoses aren't magic. They can just maybe help you communicate with people. Right? About what might help. You know, I mean, basically, everything. We're like, Alright, so for $5,000, you just told us exactly what we already know. Thank you so much. I'm just, you know, the screening, screening and just learning for me to settle into this, you know, acceptance, which we all do as mothers, but I'm like it, I am a very imaginative and a kind way to myself, but, you know, also sort of a controlling person, I would like to, I would like to, like, set the diorama stage and, you know, bring my baby home and have I done all the reading all the, you know, I had to like mill to do the organic baby food and shit. I was canning, I don't know what happened. I really doubt. But, you know, what, he didn't give a shit about organically milled anything. And anything, or, you know, and I was like, we're gonna make homemade bread. Um, and, you know, that wasn't what you wanted or needed. It was, you know, that was my idea. Yeah. Do you want a given what her need? Do you think that some of that is sort of brought on by what, like society expects us mothers to be and the standard that they expect us to hold ourselves to? Yeah, I mean, really, I mean, not all of it, because I'm a little hyperactive myself. So, you know, it's like, you know, Scott will say, like, you know, I'll, I'm writing an article about Tango. So I, all of a sudden, like, all do is Tango for two solid months, like, I'm out every night till two in the morning, smelling like Argentine gangsters when I come home, you know? And, and then article came out and like, I haven't dance. And so, you know, it's like, I picked up on every, every parenting trend, every one of them, you know. And in Los Angeles, it's like, I mean, I imagine like in most major cities, you find you're sort of, you know, you have to find your sort of niche. If you want community to support us. So, you know, we had friends that were into Waldorf, we had friends that were into something called dry. I don't know if you know what that is. It's basically like, put your babies in an octagon and just like, let them work it out. Let the curiosity out. Okay. It's a new one for me. I went to this Oh, I mean, and the baby yoga and ever, and all these kids are like, you now and my kid just gets in there and just wants that toy. And Bob said, Can the head and takes it. And you're supposed to sit there and watch, right? That's like the whole idea of a thing. Like you don't interfere with their their growth or their interaction during the group. And at some point, I was just looking at, I was like, Do you guys want me to get my kid because he's gonna hurt your kids. Like, this is not a principle that works for everyone. You know, but everyone thinks the thing that not everyone, there plenty of people have had multiple experiences, you know, the thing that they find that whatever methodology of parenting or schooling, works for them is the only way and it's hard for me to explain to them, like, my kid would have been kicked out of a Waldorf school and a week, you know, and, like, the French school. Like, wouldn't just already knew that we're going to kick them out. But we are going to kick them out. Yeah, you know. So it was about that journey for me. And, you know, as all my books are, and people find it hard to be written about not t he loves that book. Yeah. But he, you know, he knows, he knows what happened, you know, and he knows sort of my version of it. And he has his version of it. And he's really proud of the book. And so my No, and that was my goal. When I wrote it. I was like, This is a gift to my son. Yeah, you know, I'm talking about all this stuff, warts and all. But this is a gift to my son, ultimately, that, you know, the first, like, almost three years of his life are really pretty. You know, like, the major points are pretty well documented in that book. And I would hope that you know, that that that'll be special to him someday. Jovi's book coming, I'm like, No, I'm so done. Do you might get an essay, like second child syndrome Yeah. You just mentioned JB, how old? Is he idea? Yeah. So he, he came to you in a slightly different way was through. Right. So we adopted tea from Ethiopia when he was 11 months old. We thought, you know, Ethiopia would be a great choice again, because there's so much you know, it's a rich culturally, and he's really into it. And, you know, there were no more adoptions happening in Ethiopia at the time. I was just going over there and doing kind of grassroots work in communities and, and, and orphanages and stuff. So, I mean, that was best I could do like to be close to his culture, but we'd have to Jovie out of the foster care system here. DCFS. And we had really, we knew that the likelihood of black boys being adopted after the age of two, I mean, the likelihood of Blackboard is being adopted at all. But after the age of two, like it's almost nothing. Percentages are so low. And we had been through so much with T. And he was really kind of out the other side of it by then. I mean, he's still like struggling attention and stuff. But you know, he wasn't. I mean, now, like I said, you you would never guess. Yeah, yep. No, it was just like, I'm like, here's the perfect. Here's the perfect example. She the minute I open Christmas ornaments for the first time. And he looked at them, he just picked one. Just a ball looks like a ball rather than the wall. Oh, yeah. goes in like tiny shards, a really thin glass all over the living room. Yeah. Joe V, we adopted to DCFS because, like, we felt really moved by that. And also, we thought like, if not us, then who? I mean, really, we've been through so much. We have these resources. You know, like, we have resources for another child. And we have resources for, you know, therapy with like, no, the best therapists we have done all this training. And, um, and it was still so scary. Yeah. You really, really scary, like Skarner those, you know, we both have, we're both prayerful people. We don't often pray together. There have been only like a handful of times in our life. And we come from different traditions. So like, pray differently. But like after the first time, we met Jovi, and we realized he couldn't really talk. You know, like, half his mouth was all rotted out. I changed his diaper stone diapers. I mean, he was wearing a size two, us three and a half. Like, there was no hand soap in the house. He was getting the shit beat out of him by older kids. And it was really scary. You know, and we pulled the car over and just like, held hands and just prayed for guidance and and, you know, and sad sat there for a minute together. And he turned and looked to me and he said, you know, someone's gotta believe in someone's on time. Live Let's believe in this kid. It's making that's yeah. Oh, yeah. Such an asshole. Sometimes she really nails it like the times that he nails it, he nails it. One of them someone's gonna believe in someone sometime. And you know, and the first months with Jovi for us were like, we would just hold him while he screamed and scream and like, sweat was covering his body. Like he was so slick. Like, we were like, human hold on to him. And you know, who's screaming cry, he would lie under the bed. Like, I would just go and kind of lie next to the bed. Like, I'm just here. You know, we're gonna talk. Like you didn't even have any words. You didn't know a cow said Moo. Yeah, and 123 or ABC, you know? So not only is he in this totally unfamiliar environment doesn't understand why. Um, he only now barely understands why. Yeah, wrap his head around what happened? You know, the events life that led us here. And he's only just starting to ask. But yeah, it was like, I mean, he was always so funny. Yeah. So funny. And so adorable. I mean, all these are survival skills, you know, the same way like a big shining bright star. Um, and you know, in, in traumatic situations for children, they'll often get really big and now there'll be the one that gets the attention. Or the one that gets more food maybe or the one that you know. Yeah, yeah, so Jovi. I'm thinking it really started to turn around for us. Like three years ago, you know, we took him to, he got an autism diagnosis, we took him to a really specialized preschool that was almost like one on one. Yeah. And there were like, only five kids in the class. And you know, it was specifically for kids with autism. For the most part, you know, or symptoms presenting that way. And we had to attend with him for like, the first six months. I know. I know. Like, you are fucking with me right now. Like, I can't even drop this kid off at autism preschool. Like, what do you do here? Please, God, someone helped me. But it was amazing. It totally changed things. He did, you know, he matriculated in kinder, and we had a really supportive school, really supportive Public Charter School, who love the kids and aren't scared. They, they're not scared of a diagnosis. They're, they do IEPs, which are individualized education programs, if your kid needs, you know, because every kid is supposed to get the education they need. And so they do their own IPs. They have great people who work with Jovi and he plays a violin and he dances and he knows how to take breaks. And I mean, he is he's brilliant. He's working at and above grade level. Yeah, like you told me the other day like I don't want to be in this baby math class anymore. failing math class. School is not necessarily separated by grade all the time. Like they'll have like a b and c mat and and like they might have kids from different grades in like who are just at that level of math right. So I you know, I called the school I was like me, can we have a meeting because Joby feels like he's in the baby math class? And they're like, Joby, you are the youngest person in your class. You're not in the baby math class, and you're not ready for the next one. But what a what a miracle. Oh, yeah. It's, it's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah, I love soccer. He loves our animals. Yeah. And the trauma stuff, it's all there. No, and for both of them, it comes out. At different times, there are different triggers, like the job aids, a lot of medical stuff, hospitals, things like that. Like we had to take them to the hospital, he had a really high fever and hell get bronchial stuff. It changed the hospital recently, and that check blood and he for two days was like, a one year old. You know, if you progress you know, and so different things would trigger it. And it'll come popping up but I mean, I don't think about it every minute of every day anymore. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. So it's I mean, you you've been through so much. And you know, I think it's like it's a credit to yourself and to Scott that, you know, you've got so much love to give your children and you know, like you said you've done certain training like you've learned how to assist them when they need it and it's just it's a joy like you're experiencing now. You know, the other side of it. It's wonderful Jovi when his soccer game, even though I had to pay I have six. You know, I'm just like, you're supposed to like it just being an all star team is just parent torture. Like I made all stars. Yay. Yeah, we have to do I have to like drive an hour 630 On a Sunday. But um, how old are your kids? So Alex, he's 14 and Digby seven. So if we ever get, but I can relate to the likes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, degrees just started playing tennis and it's the first time we've had any either child play a Saturday morning sport. So we're like, geez, we did want to get out of it for this. Now. Now I do. Yeah. Got like, I pulled the curtains at six this morning. You know what Soccer League? is what I think about you cycling Yeah. Nik, I know you've you said before we started recording, you've been talking a lot about your serial killers and things. But I sort of without talking specifically too much about that. But I want to talk about how it's affected you as a mother. It's pretty full on. It has been, it has been really hard. And I can't say I feel like I have an answer for you. That worked. Yeah, no, I was totally successful. Because everyone in my family was affected by me working on that story. You know, and it happened like that, like at the very end of it. When everyone was like, like, this is like enough of this poison in our lives, even though the work I was doing was so amazing and wonderful and gratifying in terms of the victims. Like, I was talking on speakerphone to a serial killer every single day. And then COVID hit, and everyone's in the house all the time. Yeah. And so like, it's not that big of a house. I can know and it echoes and stuff and like, and they know who they know what I do. And they know who I'm talking to it. Like, I mean team more than Jovi, you know, but T asks and I answer and I say you know, this is like, disturbing. disturbs me. And I love that you're curious because like Alaska, how they solve the case or something. Like I love that you're curious. I love talking about this stuff. But like also do you want to talk about how it makes you feel? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mama dog bite out makes me feel that, you know, he's like, he's like junior detective. So like, he'll get into the, you know, is a really good linear critical thinker. So like, he'll get into the, like, the stories leads and stuff with me, but I'm really, you know, it, it affected the most, because I wasn't around the piece that involves a lot of traveling. And it was just also present involved like me working 12 to 14 hours a day. So I wasn't around. And I was like an on hyper vigilance. Getting these calls from a serial killer every day. Yeah. Um, and you know, which was both for audio content for the documentary and stuff, but it was mostly, you know, to have a record of the kind of details I was getting from him to give to law enforcement. Because like I work very closely with law enforcement during the scene. Um, little case, because like I had his year, you know? Or he had my year end in a case. Yeah. Um, so I wasn't around a lot. I was when I look back, I can see it more than I saw then that like, my anger was coming out. Yeah. You know, because it's like they can deal with sadness. And just like if if you're crying, they don't mommy cries like that. It's like a joke. Mommy cries, right. Like, like, if there's ever a scene in a movie that's sad. Like, like, I mean, don't even talk to me about Mallanna. Okay. Ana has like four huge crime moments like to and you get over him fast, but Mallanna. So they'll be like, are you crying and crying? But I think I was. I was angry. No. And that was coming out in a way that I am from New York, I'm sarcastic. i If you have dinner with my family, you are going to have to, like raise your decibel level to get heard. Um, you know, and like, we razz each other all the time. And it just, it's an East Coast thing. It's just it's just how my family is. Oh, do I know my biggest parenting tip? Yeah. You want to know how to get your kids to not swear? Swear all the time? Really? I mean it. Yeah. And brown who's also whose parenting counselor says the same thing. She has a really filthy mouth. You know, like, Fuck was every other word. My house. So you know, I'm like, sorry, Mommy's not gonna go changing and this is parents don't talk like that do they don't? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Yeah, that's the thing is that like you? You talked about that anger. And I guess that's thing you're processing all your emotions that you're going through, and you're speaking to this man and finding out all these things and, and dealing with the families of, of people that he's harmed. And then you're trying to process that volume of it. Overwhelming. I mean, there were 93 confessions. Like it's hard enough to deal with one. That's just you can't fathom, like sort through this. I mean, I had 40 notebooks, it was glitzy making. And I think that, you know, what I didn't have was that tiny bit of extra space. Like, that was there for a really long time. That could always like make a beautiful dinner, you know, and just like reconnect, or sit and watch movie with Jovi or play cards or something. And like, you know, I wound up just like, shoveling soup into my mouth in front of the computer for you know, I mean, years. So we're just sort of trying to get a routine back here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I do want to sort of shine a light on the work that you've done. It didn't commend you for that. And thank you for that. Because it's such important work and obviously the families of the women would be incredibly grateful for the work that you've done. I mean, I I know that you know, I know them I mean, not, you know, there were a few victims into which I did a really deep dive, and then a few victims that I helped solve the cases. And when I saw it from top to bottom, I figured out it was in a different jurisdiction. Yeah. And, and with that, I was able to find some articles that look like they matched, and that I went to the place. And it was exactly what Sam described. And you know, and I was, and that was Alice. And I'm really close with Alice's family. They came to town, her sister came to town with her two nieces. You know, they, they took me out to lunch. And, you know, like, they said that until they realized, like, until I called them and told them, you know, and I do it very, very slowly, like, the Navier sisters come up in some of my research. You know, and would you like to know anything about it? And then I'll, you know, I'll give him a chance to say no, I don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's not like you just bled all. Even with Debbie with Alice's sister. You know, she asked for a couple of days. And, and as a journalist, you're like, you know, you want to like you just have this instinct and this training to like, never walk away you walk away and give someone a couple days, then they're gonna decide not to talk to you. Yeah, that's right. Then if you let anyone think about it, they're gonna do it. She actually called me back and was like, okay, like I'm ready to talk about this I talked about with my kids talked about it with my husband. Like I'd like to hear everything you have I'm a member of the military and I'm have a very strong backbone and you know Tamera thing and and she's just remarkable and then Denise brothers, I went to Odessa, Texas just like drove there on my own and you know, and her family like welcomed me into their kitchen and showed me their pictures and love letters and you know Audrey Nelson's daughter and I do think that my kids understand that I mean, regardless of you know Sam little not being the last project of my life you know, we're gonna move on I will stay in this field continuing to find missing persons and you know just get it out there as much as I can and restore names to women who have been lost Yeah, good on you system etc. Yeah, I'm with you know, they're gonna they're gonna have to get behind. On that is it do you find that it's important that your children see you as more than a library air quotes is just mom because we're never just mom but that you're also contributing so much with your work that you're doing and your writing and your investigation. I imagine that their feelings about it are going to change over time. You know, Jovi will say things like you're always working mad like made me feel horrible. I don't know what they'll think and I don't think It's I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me. I was never gonna give up my career. You know? And, like, T asked me a few days ago, because I was like, Oh, over there baby pictures. I don't know why there was some out. Yeah. And there's, but we're both the cutest thing in the world. And, and, you know, of course, like all kids always want to hear about how cute they were when they're babies. And when the funny things they said, and they love their own mythologies. And he said, Well, you know, did you like it better? Or we got a new puppy. And he said, did you like better? Having a baby or having a teenager? And I said, How many teenager? Yeah, you know, and he was like, what? Like, how would you say like, I guess I was supposed to say, you know, I love him all like all those years. But I didn't. Like, I liked them. I mean, it's not like I liked them more. Now. I just liked my life more now. If they consider a restaurant, or I like our life as a family more now we went to a friend of mines been named spa the other day, and they were able to sit through the whole ceremony and I almost you could have knocked me over with a feather. Yeah. And and they're both like, into their things. And they're super interesting. And like, I don't have to, you know, be the party clown all day. My mother never understood, like, this parenting generation at all. She was like, What are you doing? What are you talking about? Because I was like, No, I gotta go this group and that group in this group in that group. She's like, can you just give them a choo choo? And like, put them in a play pen? What? Go home at Virginia slam and have a bottle of red wine which is just like your own nuts. You don't? Then but then again, you know, I did go and walk the route that I used to walk to school. Last time I was home and I was like, trying to get me killed. Seriously, that is a lonely path through a dark wood. Oh, no joke. It's got to be something in between, you know, but yeah, that battle, you know, now now that they're into their own things. I mean, of course, you know, I love babies and love baby smell. I love other people's babies. I love my grandbabies. Hopefully one day. But that's nice. I tell them the truth. And it was like, Oh, you're so horrible. I could do say that. Like, personnel and I really like you. Yeah. And see, that's the thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest with your children. Like, you know, we don't have to sugarcoat everything and make, you know, pleat. People please another night just can be honest with them and life's great now, you know, like, you'd be happy about that. I think that, you know, at the same time, I like to try and be conscious of, you know, I mean, maybe like the totally honest me is, is not to me, my kids need Yeah, like Vanita mitigated me, like so does everybody know I'm on to me, like full force. But, you know, they definitely bring like a consciousness to how I talk, you know, and, like, I know, I know that when I do it right. And don't like, you know, shames Graeme, all that stuff. When I do it right, and like, you know, have a conversation. I mean, there have been times like it actually worked recently. Yeah. Like, you're gonna have to learn to put your clothes away. Like, I'm not like I will, they will sit here in a pile until you do like you want to go to the Navy. By the way, get up and do some push up. Yeah. Oh, close away. So yeah, that sounds very similar to my son, he's wants to be in the army but never makes his bed fixed. Like, hang on a sec, that's not gonna cut it. You know, I, I think that he's been starting to be able to hear it. Like thinking about his future a little bit. That's been the biggest difference this year. He's 14, you know? And I've been like, Listen, I need you to hear me because you're like college, this in college, that when I'm in college, and I was like, colleges doesn't happen magically. Um, and we can't pay for a private college for two children for four years. Like, who can't who can't write. So I was like, we're gonna have to think creatively. You know, I don't want you in debt for the rest of your life, either. You know, so let's start to really think about this, you know, what scores do you need to get into what schools and and then you know, and all he wants airplanes, airplanes, air. And just like one day, I was like, What about the Air Force Academy? And he was just like, Huh. Like I was doing for ROTC program, which is like, where they start doing, like some military training when they're still in high school. Like, Yeah, boy scouts, but soldiers. Yeah, right. Yeah. And he was like, Huh. So then he got on to that. And then, you know, I started finding out about the Navy pilots, Annapolis, and then, you know, we worked up going to and we called my friend who was a pilot. And, and he said, you know, is there such a thing? Is there really such a thing as Top Gun? And my friend was like, There absolutely is. It's not called that. It's called, like, the flight defense superveloce Law, some stupid thing, like somebody in Hollywood camp, a Top Gun. But it isn't an absolutely real thing. And he said, but you're not going to get into it. It's like, the top 1% of fliers in the country. And, you know, it's like getting into Harvard, or like, you know, becoming president or something. Like, it's not quite that hard, but, you know, is, but it's like getting into Harvard. It's like, yeah, and, you know, the, the likelihood is, you won't get it. And you said, okay, you know, and they talked more and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, we were just talking I was like, so how does that make you feel? You know, when he says it's impossible? And he was like, um, I don't know. I was like, because when someone tells me something's impossible, it kind of makes me feel like proving them wrong. And I just watched his eyes light up. And oh, no, this one my friends. It's like pitching for the Dodgers. Right? Or like joining the NBA. Ya know, and I was like, you know, what, you you're 14. We know you're not pitching for the Dodgers. Sorry. You're not You're very good pitcher. But you're not pitching for the Dodgers. You know, and you're not in MBA either. That's not going to happen. I was like, but we don't know. What if you're, if you are going to be in the NBA of fliers. Pilots like you very well could be like the the amount of time he puts in on the flight simulator. And I was like, so. I mean, we could have a lot of different plans. But if that's what you want to do, let's go for it. You know, Oh yeah, that's awesome. It's so fun, you know, and then to have them be like, Yeah, I'm gonna be the Dodger pitchers of combat pilot. Good on him. So, it's really thrilling. It's really fun. I try not to get like, too excited though or like, show it about anything they're into. You know, because moms are not cool by their nature. Don't embarrass them. You tell me what you think, like this generation of kids are really different from me, like when my parents were 35 they were old people. Like they were total grownups. You know, who like stockbroker housewife, dinner parties, grownups and kids were like, you know, listen through from the upstairs. Um, and, like, and, and there was this combativeness between, you know, like, you make yourself like Adley and punk rock clothes are listening to punk rock music, or my parents really a hidden problem with that, like, why? Yeah, it seems like such such a tiny thing to sacrifice a relationship with your child for, um, but they were just raised by different people. But like, our friends, our group of friends and our kids, like, all hang out together. Yeah, it's definitely different. Like, I remember the same thing like Mum and Dad would have, they had, we had a passage door that sort of divided the living area and the bedrooms. And that whenever we went to bed that would always be shut, and we'd hear the, they'd be out there with their friends. And we could We'd sneak to the door and listen, you know, it's just, I feel like, like, us, our, our parenting styles have changed so much that we include our children in so much more now. And I think that also allows us to, I don't know, I don't wanna say not grow up, because we, you know, we physically grow up, but we were still ourselves. We don't have to take on this role of the big serious parents that you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, and that's also not me. You know, like, I mean, you know, entail I was doing some really serious journalism and traveling, like, the Deep South and stuff, and I took my hair back now, I had blue hair till just a few years ago. And man T would like be on the road and get our hair done together and matching blue hair. And it was just like, you know, how fun and also like, we don't listen to all that much different music than they do. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we're into superhero movies. I love Star Wars. So was his number one. Yeah. And that's driven by me. We are Marvel Universe here. Yeah. Yeah. All about Marvel. Yeah. We are like we already have tickets for Black Panther opening. Yeah, it's like, we're not that. I mean, now you know, T likes to just talk to his friends on the phone. Actually, one of his friends is going to show up any minute. But um, nice talk to his friends, you know, and just on his iPads I mean, he could do it all day long. So it's not like he wants to hang around us all the time. But like, we had a couple of nerf wars lately. Yeah. And you're my husband is veteran and a lot of our friends are also veterans. So they are extraordinarily serious about like, organizing the teams and you had to like each have a little, you know, space and you gotta go get the flag and get back and if you get hit twice, whatever. Yeah, um, you know, but like, they wanted the parents to play. Yeah. Last the last birthday party. We went to parents played kids in kickball. Yep. And great. Yeah. It's like, you know, like, parents versus kids. Like, I don't think. I mean, when I was 14, are you kidding? Like, yeah, it'd be just no way. Hey, we hated them. And we they wouldn't play kickball. Are you kidding? We're like busy smoking at the mall. Yeah, it's good. It's great. I'm so pleased. Like, I feel like I've got a really good relationship with my 14 year old like he, you know, we're very close. And it's really good. And I hope it stays that way. As he gets out of me, it goes up and down. You know, my 14 year old and I've always, we're both stubborn. And we've come to blows for sure. I'm not actual blows. But yeah. You know, we like to say lock horns. Yeah. And so, you know, it's been kind of up and down. But right now, I'm just enjoying them a lot. Yeah. So it's kind of them and they're trying, you know, we've been just sort of talking about how, you know, we all need help. And they're old enough now. To like, participate, you know, their babies, like, they don't need to be taken care of every single second of every day. And, you know, and that we're all participating in this house in this life. And we have to, like, act politely toward each other. And you know, not have to be asked seven times to put on your shoes or to go to bed or to like, it's just it's time for that all to stop now. Yeah. I can relate to that so much. Yeah. And put in the laundry away. And, you know, it's just yeah. And like we took Jovi to soccer game this morning and left to home alone. Yep. And I was just like, one. And Scott was like, He's 14. He's fine. He'll wake up, make his breakfast. He knows where we're going. You know, back in two hours. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, I guess I was babysitting when I was 12. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, so I think they're like, the kids are kind of younger now too. Yeah. I mean, little group and this little school. Very thankful for. Yeah. I told you that I I left home and went to college when I was 16. I did. And, and he's like, that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh, man, I was like, You know what, you are exactly correct. That was not a very good. I know, he said, Where was it? And I was like, it's it was in New York. It was in in Greenwich Village in New York. And he was like, you were living in New York when you were 16 That doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh. And I was like, Yeah, you know why? Because then I told him I sneak out of the house and take the bus into New York. I was like, you don't have to do that you like you're like I'm gonna go to a concert dad gets on the phone with his manager. You know, obviously if you guys have a box you know, I You really don't have any reason to get out of the house. Yeah. on that, but I can't let you go without mentioning. You've mentioned Scott a few times and his connection to music, that he's the bass player for Weezer, and full disclosure, I'm a massive what he's a fan. I've got my little ways of paying for the fair club. And I've seen him sing them twice. They've come to Australia a couple of times, but my, I've got to share with you my funniest Weezer story was when they first came out, I think it was 96 or 97. And I just started going out with, like, my husband, obviously, we weren't married then. And we were playing in Adelaide, which is five hours drive from here. And I said to him, I really want to go see this band. And my favorite band, like this sweater song was out. It was blue Album Era. And he said, Ah, you know, if they're big band, they'll they'll come back again soon, you know, we'll go next time, you know. Anyway, 14 years later, I waited 14 years to see them play in Melbourne, and I'm lying. Now I just got to the same thing that they hadn't been to us ever wanted to go so badly. And it was actually, like, one of the times that he was like, you know, I'd like to stay here a little longer. Like, there's some beach. That's supposed to be like, really cool. Is this Sydney? Or like Bondi Beach in Sydney? Maybe? Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. And he's like, I just want to go like, stay there for apps like do, please. You know, but it was like, too long of a flight for tea at that time. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. So I was gonna say I saw on your socials that he went on the last tour. With the band. Yeah. It's so great to juvie. Yeah, and it's perfect. Kind of for now. You know, like, I can go and fly to the shows in like, major cities that we want to see. Or, like, I have my own career. I've taken two kids on tour. Bus Tour, like three times, like, months of living on a bus. As just like, I'm gonna, like put out a shingle and start telling fortunes or something like, I I can't do this anymore. You've done the hard work. Laughing like, you've been less schlepping now because they're old. But the schlepping of the baby crap. Yeah, yes. It's like That's the worst part. Yeah, that's why I hate the beach. Yeah, there's so much stuff. There is so much stuff. Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, then like, you know, you've to date the car seat. The car Student Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much to consider last you are new mothers out there. That's something I don't miss. I'll tell you. Neither, but then, you know, I look at the baby pictures. And I go. I'm a monster. About these angels. Yeah. Look, I'll thank you so much for coming on. Julian. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. And you too, and we'd be happy to be in touch again. Oh, thank you. And just before you go, do you want to share is it you've got to your books coming out my book, Behold, the monster is coming out another thing next July. Um, and there is also a documentary called confronting a serial killer that's streaming on most major networks right now. That's about me. Like it's limited, you know, five one hour episodes directed by Joe burrow injure and it's just about my relationship with Sam and and solving some of the cases. And super excited for the book. I'll be around talking a lot about crime. And strangely enough, you know, even moms have interests beyond macaroni collages Yes. We were true crime fans. Um, we're just like this part is relaxing. Are you getting turned on the DOM or documentary? You know, my website, Julian lauren.com. You can find everything there. I'm on Instagram actually and Lauren I'm on Tik Tok. Don't even ask. They talked me into it. It's kind of fun. It's really fun. Yeah, I haven't gotten you don't you have to do this mom. Like you have to do this. Or you're just not anything. Get with the time. Not going anywhere. Mom's ticked off. Anyway, good. Just Julie and lauren.com. Everything's there and preorder the books. Great. Yay. Thank you so much, and all the best and yeah, I'd love to chat again one day and yeah, keep doing what you're doing and and say hi to Scott for me. Yes, and go see Weezer. It's great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Dr Sophie Brock Motherhood studies sociologist S2 Ep59 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Dr Sophie Brock, a Motherhood Studies Sociologist (a Social Scientist) and Mother of 1 living in Sydney, Australia. She provides analysis of Motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences of Mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. I first found out about Sophie's amazing work while recording a podcast with Louise Agnew in S2Ep41 and I am so glad I did, what she is doing really resonates with me and it is so valuable. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what Motherhood means in our society, and how individual Mothers are supported and understood. This has been her of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in Sociology from The University of Sydney, her own experiences as a Mother, and her own ongoing learning from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for a Motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where Mothers have agency, support, and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of Motherhood, including ‘the perfect mother myth’, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom-motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, (re)claim, explore, and connect to a version of Motherhood that sees women who mother as valued, powerful and whole. Sophie’s offerings include self-study courses for Mothers and practitioners, her podcast The Good Enough Mother , and her Motherhood Studies Practitioner Certification program. In todays chat with Sophie we discuss the movie The Lost Daughter , which may be triggering. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Connect with Sophie website / facebook / instagram email - info@drsophiebrock.com Podcast - instagram / website Maternal Scholars Australia Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Sophie Brock to the podcast this week. Sophie is a motherhood studies sociologist, also known as a social scientist, and a mother herself living in Sydney Australia. Sophie provides analysis of motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences and mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what motherhood means in our society, and how individual mothers are supported and understood. I first found out about Sophie and her incredible work through a previous guest of this podcast. Louise Agnew, a photographer from Matt Gambia, South Australia, and I'm so glad I did. Motherhood studies has been Sophie's field of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in sociology from the University of Sydney, her own experiences as a mother and her own ongoing learnings from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where mothers have agency support and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of motherhood, including the perfect mother myth, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, claim or reclaim, explore and connect to a version of motherhood that sees women who mother as valued powerful and how, and personally I could not agree more. Sophie's offerings include self study courses for mothers and practitioners, her podcast, the good enough mother, and her motherhood studies practitioner certification program. In today's chat with Sophie, we discussed the movie The lost daughter, which may be triggering to some. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you or from resources online. I have compiled a list of international resources on my website landing page. That is Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear in today's episode is used with permission and it's from my new age at ambient music trio called LM Joe. It's made up of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I'm so delighted to have Sophia on an episode of my podcast. It really is an honor. And I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed chatting with Sophie. Thanks so much for coming on today. Sophie, it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me, Alison. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Yeah, so I've been following you on Instagram for a little while I came across you. I can't remember how but I'm really glad I did. Because what you're doing is really of interest to me, and I think will be of interest to a lot of people that listen to the podcast as well. Can you explain to us what you do? And the sort of thing that you're really interested in with your area of work? Yeah, sure. So I have a pretty unusual job title, which is a motherhood studies sociologist. And what that actually means is I'm a social scientist, and I focus on the experiences of mothers and motherhood in our society and culture and how that shaped and what that means. And so sometimes I describe it, if you imagine, like a scientist with their white lab coat walking into a lab and looking at a specimen under their microscope to examine and ask questions and post hypotheses and think about well, what can I learn and what can I find out from studying and observing this phenomenon? I do the same thing but in our social world. So we step out and we look at how mothers experience their daily lives and what the cultural messages are around what it means to be a mother in Our society and culture. And so that's what I'm really interested in. How did you get into this area? What was sort of the trigger that that drew you into it? Yeah, I did my Bachelor of Arts degree and I majored in sociology. And through the course of one of my essay topics, I stumbled across motherhood studies as a term. And I was really surprised that we hadn't learned about motherhood studies formally in the course of my degree. And so I kind of went down the rabbit hole of lots of reading. And I discovered a whole network of incredible maternal scholars at the time, mostly based in North America. But there was an organization here in Australia, two that was focused on maternal researchers scholarship, and that led me down the path of them pursuing a PhD focused on that area of study. And it's kind of just sort of blossomed since then I've just been really passionate about the topic. And this was long before I became a mum myself. So yeah, it's been an interest for mine ever since. Yeah, it's interesting you say about not many people, I guess, in Australia, I don't know about now. But I've noticed that there it is a really strong sort of topic in North America. And there's people in England doing the same sort of thing. But I haven't come across many other people sort of diving in, in Australia. So it's a nice to have that perspective over here. Because I think, you know, culturally, you know, we are so different to other countries, and different sort of setups that our government has, like with health care, and childcare and things like that. So it is a unique sort of, I guess, every country is unique. So yeah, it's nice to have that that perspective. There's actually a fair a fair few people now in Australia, which is wonderful. And there's an organization maternal scholars, Australia, and but the, I suppose the challenges too, it's like, how, where are you placed in order to be able to do this work? And so are you working at a university? Do you have funding, like, all of those sorts of questions come into play with how much focus were sort of able to facilitate on this topic? But yeah, absolutely. There's a really strong pool throughout, throughout, you know, the UK and North America and Australia for this interest. So can you explain to us, and I'll probably stuff this up. So take this way, you need to the sort of the way you describe the difference between motherhood, mothering, like the actual act of mothering within you describe it, like the fishbowl? Can you? Can you talk about that? Explain? Yeah, no, you didn't start that up at all? Naughty that I use. And it's really about making some distinctions in language to make it easier for us to describe accurately what we're experiencing and what we're talking about in motherhood. So there are three distinctions to help us do that. And one is, the word mother can be referring to our individual selves, so the individual mother, or a social role, so the role of the mother, and then there's mothering, which is an act, it's a practice, it's like the doing work of mothering and their caregiving, the actual acting out of what it means to engage in mothering work. And then there's the motherhood. And so the Motherhood is the social and cultural context, that way, the mother's mother with him. So I used the fish tank analogy to describe that to think about around glass bowl, which is like the fish tank, and that represents our society and culture. And this can be applied to lots of different areas, not just motherhood, but we're talking about the hood here. And so that represents all of the stuff that we actually find really hard to see. Because it's easy for someone to point at something and say, Oh, here's a rulebook and look at all of those rules contained within it. That's the law, but the social customs and the social rules and the social norms that we all live within, we know them because we've been socialized into them, but they're invisible. It happens through a process of socialization. So this analogy is really there to help us make a little bit more tangible, what we're kind of talking about here. But we're living within a society and culture that has certain ideas around what it means to be a mother. And that impacts not only how we see ourselves, but that impacts how we carry out our mother in how we actually care for our children. And it also impacts how the world sees us. So that's the kind of analogy that I use to help open up that conversation. Yeah, that's, that's really good. I think that that's a really relatable description, like and I think it's Yeah, because people see things in so many different ways and learning different ways. So, you know, being able to visualize that, you know, vessel that we're within, as this as the social constructs. When I checked Imams on this podcast, a lot of them bring up the topic. Well, I bring up the topic and it's a big one for people about the identity shift that happens when you become a mother. And what actually happens to yourself the sense that you might lose your own identity, you'd become somebody's mum. And you'd lose that. Everything you've ever had, in the eyes of society is diminished, because you you exist to keep this little person alive. That I noticed on your your stories and your your Instagram, that it seems that something that's important that you talk about is maintaining that identity as the person that you are within the role of mothering. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure, yeah, identity is such a complex topic, and we all relate to it, probably understandably, so in different ways. So it is a really common theme to come out when we're talking about who we are as mothers, for mothers to say they feel they've lost themselves as mothers or they've lost themselves in motherhood, or that they may have a really strong sense of their self and identity. But to everyone else, now they've shifted and changed. And as you say, you're, you know, you're Jessica's mum, you're you don't have your even your name anymore. And I think that often coincides with a shift in Korea, because so often, there's such a cemented sense of identity with what we do. So what work we carry out, if there are shifts that go on there in terms of shifting the the amount that we are engaged in paid work, or shifting career, that can also really accentuate a sense of loss of self, because we don't have that to identify with as strongly anymore. Although it can also be the other way, for a lot of women who become mothers, as well, some describe, finding themselves in motherhood or, I know focuses around creativity and saying, actually, this experience that I've had, through becoming a mother can also be a portal and a catalyst for incredible self transformation and coming to know myself in a new way. And, and and what I try and talk about is highlighting the nuance and saying, We don't actually have to have a simple story here. And it can be a bit of both. And it'll change according to who you're speaking with. But I suppose what can be helpful for us is making the distinction between who the world sees us as who the world expects us to be, and who it is that we are. And so I find that useful to come back to to say that we're more than our labels, and our roles, and that it's really important for us, as women, as individuals, as mothers to be able to find a sense of grounding and anchoring into who we are, that feels true for us and feels connected for us rather than who were perceived as being by everyone else. Yeah, that's a big one isn't it is this. And I think the social media makes it even more challenging, because there's so many ways you can experience other people's views. Now, it's not like, you could just hear the neighbors saying something or, you know, a friend made a comment. It's like, it's all around us all the time. So it can become really challenging to sort of find yourself amongst everybody else's opinions of who you should be. Is that something that you you sort of noticed as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't find yourself when you're swimming through everyone else's opinions of who you should be, um, anything that you try on won't be your own, it'll be someone else's, and social media is makes that particularly challenging, because it's really easy to curate an identity on there. And so talking about topics like this, you know, and we're having this dialogue about identity, and we have the capacity to add in the complexity and the nuance. But that's really hard to do on an Instagram post or in a 32nd Instagram reel. And you know, you have the filters and you have your your light ring, and you set yourself up and you know, you can really portray a certain version of who you are. And that's not to say that that's all constructed and false. And, you know, everyone on there, it's just performing, not at all, I mean, we're all performing to some degree wherever we are, whether it's on social media or not. It's just a shade. It's a shade, and it's a part of who we are. But I think where we can become lost is when, as individuals, we identify with that shade or that version or that facade, and we take that on as meaning. That is everything of who I am. And why that can be risky and challenging for us is that when we anchor him to a version of ourselves that exists outside of us, so when we curate an identity as I'm the mother or whatever, right I'm, I'm the the worried over protective mom. That's just how I'll always be all out, you know, and we really identify with that label. We can get kind of at first we can find meaning from it, but then we can get stuck and trapped within it and it can place these bigger expectations on ourselves and that goes for any identity that we try on. And we need we need some flexibility to to change our minds. And I don't think that were kind of allowed that enough in motherhood were kind of put into these boxes quite early on when we first become mothers and then it can feel really hard to find any movement within there. Hmm. Yeah, it's it's such a big thing is in it. It's like the the way that society wants us to be. Have you noticed throughout your period of time, I didn't ask you how long you've been doing this for But have you noticed shifts generally in the, in the cultural norms of what society is expecting of mothers? Yeah, I have. And I suppose my observations wouldn't be as clear as others who have worked in the field for decades and decades, I've been doing this for about 10 years. But it also impacts your perspective as to whether you're in the cultural soup or not. So whether you are a mother or not. So my perceptions of the cultural construction of motherhood also change according to my experience of motherhood as well. But in a broader sense, in terms of the literature and research around motherhood, there's definitely been a shift more recently in the context of the pandemic, and the kind of off shifts, that has been picked up by by mothers and mothers as another version of frontline workers who are kind of holding down the fort and taking on and engaging in more emotional labor as well as more physical labor in order to care for families and other members of their community. And so absolutely, I think there have been shifts that have been precipitated most strongly through the pandemic. But on top of that, as well, though, there certainly has been an intensification of the expectations on Mother's Day. And I think that's a mix of kind of social media pressures and the online world and a mix of social and cultural factors as well when it comes to even economics and costs of living and different kinds of economic shifts that can happen that then impact how we live our everyday lives. And what that can look like culture to culture as well. Yeah, it makes a difference where we're located and where you're listening to this podcast from will probably change how motherhood looks for you in your society. Yeah, absolutely yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. Something that really fascinates me is this idea that not only mothers work, the unpaid work that is so essential to make society work. But also the, with the people I chat to that are artists and creators, that the work that we do, maybe we aren't renumerated for in a monetary sense, it makes society has this thing that will our society in us in Australia capitalist Western society that unless you're paid for what you do, there is this diminished worth placed on it? And I can see you nodding, so can you share me share with me your your opinions on that? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I think anybody who is engaged in any form of unpaid labor that they find valuable, meaningful, purposeful, and important, we'll be able to intuitively have a sense of what we're talking about here, right? And you're asked, well, what is it that you do and oh, that or, Oh, you're just a mother? Or oh, that's in some sort of patronizing way? Oh, that's a nice little hobby you have or what are your plans for afterwards? Or what are you how are you going to support your family? Or what contribution Are you making? Like there are veiled ways that we're asked questions that remind us how little value our culture places on what we do? And so I think the first and foremost, for us individually, regardless of whether you're an artist or creator, a mother who is engaged primarily in work, raising her child, rather than paid work outside of the home, is valuing what we do for ourselves. Because even though I would like to say that we need a cultural revolution, so that everyone else sees the value in what we do, so that we can feel better about ourselves, that's probably not going to happen, at least until we individually value what we do so almost forever on this I mean, like, remove the word just from your vocabulary. So when you describe yourself, it's not just anything, it's this is what I do and feeling into the discomfort sometimes that comes with first stating that but knowing truth, every time you do, opens up a pathway for others to be able to do the same. But as you mentioned, we live within a capitalist society where value literally equals dollar. And, and so it can make it really difficult for mothers, when so much of mothering is not only devalued socially, but you're not paid for it. So it's not seen as being economically contributing, although we know that it is, you know, your if you want to look at it, in economic terms, you're raising human capital, you're raising taxpayers. So I mean, you know, we can talk about it from all sorts of different angles. But in order to start to create shifts, I think that we need to start valuing what we do and, and sit with the discomfort that others won't, you know, we can ultimately make them either. So where, yeah, where it's countercultural, some of this of what we're doing in holding on to the meaning of what we do. Finally, I want to talk to you about the movie, the lost daughter, which I absolutely loved. I loved it so much. And I related to it so much. And I don't want that to say I'm bad that I really loved it because it's a heavy, it's a heavy movie with a lot of heavy, heavy topics. And you had a wonderful podcast that you released recently with Julianne, where you talked about in sort of unpacked it. can briefly, can you sort of outline a little bit of that, for people that haven't watched it? This will make no sense whatsoever? So I apologize. But if you have watched it, hopefully this, you'll enjoy this next little bit of the chat. Yeah, yeah. So I had a conversation with Julian bridge lamp from Parenthood in mind about the lost daughter film, it's out on Netflix. And the film is one that explores lots of different aspects of motherhood in a really, as you say, kind of confronting and deep and for some quite dark way. And some people love the film, others hated it. Others found that resonant but difficult to watch, and so had to watch it in different sections. But the film, as Julian and I discussed, it explores maternal transgressions. So a sense of when you kind of break those rules of what it means to be a good mother. But in a way that is really kind of complex and fraught, we look at the kind of bad mother archetype. So ultimately, in the film, not as a spoiler alert for those who may not have watched it, but the main character leader, she leaves her children, when they are young. And she we sort of get flashbacks throughout the film of her now in her later life with adult children, and then flashing back to when she had her children when she was younger. And there's all sorts of different storylines in there around her career, her aspirations with her work, I think she has a sort of an affair, and you look at the complex relationship with her partner and the father of her children. And we've kind of have an example of the trope of the selfish woman, you know, the selfish mother, the mother, who is self interested, and who focuses on on her needs and wants and desires and who fails in many ways to live up to this idealized image of who the perfect mother is. And why I think it can be confronting for a lot of mothers to watch is because you can recognize parts of yourself within her character. And it may not be that you are her completely and that you have left your children or decided to, or thought about it, although I would argue probably most mothers have had that thought at one stage or another. But it's that actually, she she crosses those boundaries. But she you can see she also holds love and tenderness for her children. And there are times that which, you know, we've all been there when we have young children where we're, there's a scene where she's trying to I think she's trying to study or focus on something and her daughter is just at her and athearn at her and asking her questions, then I think her daughter kind of hits her. And she's sort of shocked. And it's like, don't hit me and she's trying to contain her anger. And then it kind of unravels. And we identify with that sense of being pushed to our limits as mothers and the power that we have, and that we hold the responsibility that we hold for our children's care and love and nurturance and their safety, but the ways in which we're so often left to do that on our own and we have we then have such harsh critique and self judgment when we can't live up to the idealized image of who the perfect mother is because none of us can and importantly in the film, she's mothering alone. Ultimately, she's not surrounded by community she's she doesn't have people who come in and share the load with her mentally and physically In adequate way, and so it's it's complex, but I think we can recognize parts of ourselves within a character or notice within us. What are the things that we're most repulsed by? and exploring that? And being curious about what that means about what we've internalized about motherhood? Hmm. Yeah, just a massive movie. I'm so glad that, that it's out there. And for people to be challenged by that to actually, to see somebody, like you say, crossed the line. Like, we've all probably thought about it, but we don't actually do it. And to see someone do it is massive. And it's, it's a fantastic. Like, it's like a breakthrough sort of movie. You know, like, it's probably the first time that we've seen this stuff on film. Yeah, it's fascinating. And that was thing I was really, really interested, I was thinking about how later would have survived how our experience would have been different, like you say, with the support of others, living in a different time, or different culture where she had support or, you know, mother's home to say, we're allowed to, but, you know, could do other things apart from being somebody's mother, you know, I just, I felt really felt sorry for her, I felt really like, yeah, film presented in a complex way, it's not a simple narrative. And what I really hope to try and do in my work, and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother, and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self, there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like, actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self with our mothering and how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are and of our own authenticity, in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them so. So kind of breaking is open it and which is what the film has helped us doing in conversation is to see the complexity of the mothering role, I think that actually can offer a gifts to our children and can pave the way for deeper connection with our children true, particularly in adulthood. And it's interesting that we didn't really see later and her adult children, but we had some interactions with them on the phone that we missed. But yeah, it certainly opens a lot of different threads for discussion, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. It's wonderful, so good. Thank you so much for being a part of this. And I urge anybody who's interested in this topic at all to follow Sophie, on your socials, I'll put all the links to that in the show notes. And keep up the good work. Because honestly, you're what you're doing is amazing. And it's it's so important. And thank you, thank you, thank you for having me and for the work that you're doing as well and, and opening them holding these types of conversations to really give us space to talk about a name our experiences and for mothers to reflect on what they do and who they are and to have openings for that rather than closed little containers that you know, ultimately gives us more freedom to be able to do so. So thank you for having me on. I've really enjoyed this. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom doo doo doo ah doo doo doo doo

Lena George US author S3 Ep79 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Lena George, an author from Baltimore USA and mom of one son. Lena has been creative her whole life, growing up in Pennsylvania she played guitar, violin and flute, as a youngster she would dictate books and stories for her mom to write and Lena would illustrate them. When she was 14 she started a Zine and published that for a while, and when In college studying visual arts Lena wrote a live journal blog. She moved to Baltimore in 2008. Lena was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager, She began a blog in 2014 and from this released her fiction work in 2019 under her own name Jaclyn Paul around this topic called Order from Chaos - The Everyday Grind of Staying Organised with Adult ADHD . Her writing about ADHD has appeared in ADDResources , ADHD Roller Coaster with Gina Pera and Houston Family Magazine . Lena's debut non fiction novel She's Not Home will be released in April this year, It explores the relationship between a mother and her daughter. shared grief and coming of age. She started writing the book in 2009, before she had a child, and put it away for a long time. When Lena came back to it, she wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective, after becoming a mother herself. The book is available for pre order now here Lena's website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Fair Play - Eve Rodsky This episode contains discussions around ADHD and road accident fatalities. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I, Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy love to enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creatives about the joys and issues they've encountered. Trying to be a mum and continue to create. You hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how they works, being influenced by mother, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the basic place, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Allison dotnet slash podcast, the blog, the traditional islands of the land and water, which his podcast is recorded on has been abandoned in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is George Lincoln is an author from Baltimore. And a mom of one son. Lena has been creative her whole life. Growing up in Pennsylvania. She played guitar, violin and flute. As a youngster she would dictate books and stories for him to write, and Lena would illustrate them. When she was 14 she started a zine and published that for a while. When in college while studying visual arts. Lena wrote a Live Journal blog. She moved to Baltimore in 2008 Lena was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager, she began a blog in 2014 and from base released her fiction in 2019. Under her own name, Jacqueline Lena George is in pain for nonfiction book is called the everyday grind of staying organized with adult ADHD, providing a sense of add resources, ADHD roller coaster, genius hero and Houston family medicine. Lane his debut nonfiction, she's not fine will be released in April this year. It explores the relationship between a mother and her daughter shared grief and coming of age. Lena started writing the book in 2009, before she had her son, and she put it away for a long time. When Lena came back to it, she wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective after becoming a mother herself. The book is available for pre order now. Links are in the show. This episode contains discussion around ADHD, and Brode accident fatalities. I hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks again for tuning in. Hi, Lena, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to welcome you. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I know. This is I'm excited. Well, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you based in America. So I'm in Baltimore. That's I mean, I've learned after moving here, that's the Mid Atlantic region. So just I'm originally from Pennsylvania, and associated more with the Northeast that way, but yeah, kind of in the middle of the right smack in the middle of the East Coast. Yeah, right. What state is that in? Maryland? Ah, you're the third person I've had on from Maryland. There's something Maryland. Sorry, I gotta say it right. Something going on with it part of the world at the wire. It's pretty cool. That's very funny, because it's not a big state. Yeah, there you go. Because yeah, I'm getting better with my geography. I know which side of the like the east or west of the big cities are on, but I'm getting better with my little other places. Oh, even people who live here are not so good at outside of their region. i It's very funny because when I meet people who are from the Western United States, I, I just I obviously know where the states are, but the size of them is they scale up as you as you go out there. And just sort of what's close to what and and I've been laughed at many times Such a big country. I mean, it's Yeah. It couldn't be blind for not knowing every inch of it. Yeah, it's impractical on many levels. Yeah. So what what brought you to that part of the world? You said you're from Pennsylvania originally? I am. So we came down here. So Pennsylvania and Maryland Shara border. And I live about two and a half, three hours away from most of my extended family. So we're not super far away. My husband got a job down here in 2007. And I was a little bit adrift. So I just came along. And now here we are quite some time later. Yeah. Oh, very good. So you're a writer. And I'm gonna ask you this name, you have a pen name of Lena George, how can we do that? So I just started that pen name for my fiction work. Because I am already a published nonfiction author. And I am somewhat widely known for my niche nonfiction work. And even though I always tell people do, do not order your books on Amazon, go to your local bookstore. The reality of it is, as a writer, you do have to think about the Amazon algorithm. And I created a pen name for my fiction. So I could keep things kind of cleanly delineated that I have to, you know, I'll have two catalogs of work nonfiction under my given name and fiction under my pen name, and there will be audience crossover. But I didn't want to him myself into kind of needing to have the same audience for both. And that's why I went back and forth on it a lot whether I should do the pen name. And eventually I just decided to do that and keep things simple. But yeah, so it's a little weird. I, it's my first book under that name is coming out in the spring. And I'm just starting to try to figure out oh, okay, so when I'm interacting with people in person, like how do I introduce myself, it's very especially locally here in Baltimore, because it is a small town. And I know a lot of people at this point, and they recognize me by my given name, so it gets a little bit more muddled around here then out in the wide world where no one Yeah. Oh, do you? Oh, yeah. It's it's makes sense, doesn't it to do it like that? And just iron out the little details of how you deal with certain people face to face. Yeah. Oh, yeah. How long have you been writing your whole life? Are you doing that as a kid, you're really creative. I think writing is the thing I've done the longest I have had many creative pursuits in my life. But even before I was a great like physically at writing, I, before I went to elementary school, even I remember sitting and I would dictate book your quote unquote, books, and stories to my mom, and she would write them into these construction paper books, and then I would illustrate them. Yeah, so I went to kindergarten having, you know, written some weird one page story about a toy ghost I had, and it escalated from from there. And I went through phases, I really thought my pursuit in life would be music, and then it wasn't and then I went to school for visual art. And that wasn't it either. And then I came back to writing so so you got back into writing. Can you tell us a little bit about the books that you've written? So I have one published book that has been out for a few years and it's called order from chaos. The everyday grind of staying organized with adult ADHD. So I started writing a blog years ago 20 In 2014 And I sort of spun what I had the work I had done there into the book. And now most I feel like a lot of people encounter me now via the book, the book is more popular than the blog ever was. And so Oh, I didn't know you also had a blog. Yeah, that's kind of where it started. But I yeah, that's been ironically, my my most full focus nonfiction work I've done when I was in ninth grade. So yeah, when I was 14, I started a zine. Which is maybe dating, dating myself a little bit. But I published that for a while and then went to college. And then we had Live Journal and I, you know, wrote a Live Journal blog. So I did a lot of like, personal experience writing. For myself, and then pretending it was for other people, too. But then I tried a few like more adult blogs, when I was out of college, and this is the one that stuck and really like it. My work started resonating with people. And that made it easier to stick to because I felt some, you know, accountability there to a community that I had built. And so that's, that's where my nonfiction writing mostly has been. For the past, I guess it's almost nine years now. Yeah. Right. So, obviously, based on your own experiences of having ADHD, so when were you diagnosed with ADHD? Um, well, so I, I guess I figured it out on my own when I was in high school. I, when I was 17, I asked a therapist to, like, do she did some sort of evaluation on the computer. And then she was like, Alright, so what do you want to do with this. And here, if you are a minor, to get a diagnosis and evaluation, it, you have to involve your teachers and your parents. And they have to fill out these questionnaires. And I had kind of hidden all of that away. And so at some point, if you are good enough at hiding your struggles, or if you are in an environment where there's a certain ethos around, like, what kind of struggles are okay? Or, or expected, or like everyone deals with that, or you just have to do this try harder. I just didn't want to involve anybody, because I was terrified of them. Just saying, There's nothing actually wrong with you. You just can't deal with your life like, but that's you. That's not something that we need to fill out a questionnaire about. And it wasn't until I was in my mid 20s, that I kind of hit a rock bottom point and pursued it again. So it was I was like, what the classic late diagnosis? You know. Looking back at my elementary school paperwork, like Yeah, okay, like one of the professionals in the room should have probably noticed this, but I was the gifted student. And I think it just slips by, if you're the gifted student, you then if you have behavioral or social problems, or if schoolwork is extra super hard, it can really mask the true struggle. And it's like, well, you need to learn how to control your behavior or, you know, apply yourself and your schoolwork. And, yeah, yeah, so it's it. That was kind of a long journey. That I guess it started in high school that I like, asked for something. But then it wasn't until I was like, well into homeownership and adulthood that came to a head. Yeah, right. It's almost like like I've had, I work in the early childhood education sector. So I've come across a lot of children with ADHD, and my own son has had some issues as well. So I can relate to what you're saying, from an educators point of view. So almost like they said, that, that you weren't a problem for them. Right. Your behavior was, you know, everything was they didn't have to do anything. You know, if it had been a child that was having issues with behavior or couldn't get their work done, then they would have had to do something, you know what I mean? Like it's, that's a horrible thing to say. They didn't think like that. But yeah, yeah, but it's like if you don't have to try I in school, then it masks a lot because I wasn't failing school because I could coast. And I certainly didn't challenge myself as much as I could have. But because I was very selective about where I was comfortable being challenged, my academics were always okay. And then the behavior stuff was just like, well, we need to address this as a behavior issue. But even I mean, that's 30 years ago, and even now I know, educators who say, Oh, yeah, we can't really do anything, intervention wise, if the academics aren't being affected, which I think is terrible, because I'm like, Oh, I wish that things would have gotten better. Because, I mean, because my son is the same way that his not he's not failing, grades wise, but in terms of his own, like, like mental health and happiness. If I hadn't known what to look for, then his teachers might have been in a position where, like, the academics aren't being affected. So we really can't push this with the parents. And, you know, it's, yeah, it makes me sad, because I'm like, a bunch of kids are still being like, left behind and thinking that they are just a problem. Yeah, and yeah, that's really horrible to hear, isn't it? Hmm. Because there's so many other things in life that are important, other than just having good schoolwork results, you know, like you said, the social Yeah. Yeah. There's more beyond school and work that makes us happy. And, yeah, with ADHD, it's that a lot of the focus is on. Well, how are you doing at work? How you doing at school by the numbers? And, you know, if that doesn't look terrible, then what are you complaining about? And well, okay, but yeah, it does make me sad that like things haven't come a little further than that, since I was, you know, my son's age for sure. So, tell me about this new book you've got coming out in your fiction section. Yeah. Lena, George, how'd you come up with that name, by the way? If you don't, sorry. Sorry, I'm, I have known people who have renamed themselves and adulthood. And I just didn't appreciate how hard it is to come up with a new name for oneself. So my maternal, paternal great grandfather, I guess. He wrote a novel that was never published. He died in 1941. So I absolutely never crossed paths with him. And also, it was not spoken about that he wrote fiction. I think my great grandmother, were very German in that way that she just did not speak about him. Really, I think it is, it was a painful topic. And she had really had to, like, get up by her bootstraps and be a single parent at a time when that was not the norm. And yeah, she did not like sit around and share reminiscing about him. But after my grandmother died in 2020, I was given this box that had this the hovel manuscript in it, and I was like, Oh, that's funny. He played the violin. And now I learned that he's a novelist. This is the person I apparently have the most in common with and I never knew but his first name was George so that's where the the last name is a is a nod to him and then I eventually I was trying to do to family names and it just wasn't working. So I just found I just like okay, well what's like a what's a German first name with a nice ring to it? And I came up with Lena and so that's yeah, Lina George, but it's a kind of an A in honor of For the family that I writers on both sides who like did not share their work. That's interesting, isn't it? Do you think it's like, sort of, of the time that they were just too busy working and having, you know, their life that you couldn't indulge in these other sort of things? I don't know. I don't maybe because my great grandfather, George, he worked in finance. And I, I get the idea that that kept him rather busy. So he didn't probably feel like he had a lot of time to sit around and dilly dally with this. But he also he did share his work with other people for feedback. There's like someone he wrote to who gave him you know, some very critical feedback in a letter, which is really funny to read. But then my grandmother on my mom's side, apparently wrote stories as well. And she would submit them. But then when she got rejection letters, she would just get rid of the stories. And she was like, oh, no, but do you know how many rejections some very, very famous authors got before? They made it? Don't throw it away? Yeah. But yeah, apparently she didn't keep her stories. And it was at the time typewriter. So you threw it out? It was just gone. Yeah. Which, you know, my mom is like, I can't believe she did that. Because she would love to be able to read them. But um, yeah. Hey, guy. I'm glad I asked you that question. The weird, the weird family history. Our. Yeah, but my grandmother. I mean, she wrote stories, but she also was, you know, she had four children. So that's another another person who probably did not have oodles of free time to write stories. And maybe that's what I don't know. I guess we'll never know why she got rid of them. But as you know, is it was it a perfectionistic thing? Or just a? Well, you know, I guess it's a waste of time, then. Yeah, there you go. So your walk is called? She's not home? Can you? I mean, obviously, don't give us any spoilers, because we want everyone to read it. How does what's the GST? So the gist is the so it's told from two perspectives. A mother and a daughter, and the daughter is 17. And it's, the book starts just before her senior homecoming dance in the fall at her high school. And 10 years prior to this, her older sister, her only sibling had died in a car accident on the night of Homecoming. So in the intervening years, her mother sort of transformed from, you know, the kind of the fun parent into this, she just did not address her grief around this and instead just became very controlling of the surviving child because she was terrified of experiencing a loss like this again. And so the fun carefree lifestyle didn't do it. Okay, you know, I need to become a different parent to this child, so that I like, there will never be an opportunity for her to be in a situation where something like this would occur. And part of that is her envisioning of how this accident happened. And the daughter is obviously feeling a bit suffocated by this at this point, and everything kind of comes to a head for them around this homecoming night. And the daughter discovers how things actually transpired for her sister. And she ends up running away from home. And the to the story is her running away and having to deal with this. Even though it's you can understand in the moment, the impulse to run away, it's still like the people left behind. She being a kid and rather impulsive, did not fully comprehend how many people would be deeply affected by this and that it actually is kind of a terrible thing to do, even if it's understandable. So it's, we see her kind of coping with the fallout from her choices. and having to decide like, well, then I thought that a fresh start would be so clean. It's not, but how do I rebuild my life and become a whole person again? And does that in any way include like reestablishing contact with my family? Like, can I do that? Do I have the courage to do that. And then meanwhile, the mom is is left to to reckon with, like, not only losing another child, but losing another child in a way that feels like very much on her. Yeah. Like, after all these years of trying so hard to insulate herself from this trauma recurring is like that. Those efforts have then, like, in a way brought it about the thing that she most feared. And you know, how, how can she actually like heal from that and figure out like, who she is in the world? It's almost like, the mother sort of had a self fulfilling prophecy that she sort of created this. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So is that just complete fiction? Or have you sort of, is your own your own influences? In there since you became a mother? It definitely I don't I don't know if I could have written. I don't know if i. So this story has been around quite a while I wrote the first draft of it in 2009. Before I had a child. Yeah. And I, you know, I shelved it for a long time. And when I came back to it, I actually wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective. And the issue had always been that she was a little bit two dimensional. And we didn't get to, like meet her early enough in the story, like from her in, in her own words. And once I wrote that, I mean, the book is a lot better now than I think I could have written it when I was younger. But the inspiration for it actually came from a what if line of thought involving my sister, because I have a sister who's significantly younger, and we grew up in a rural area with like, lots of hills and winding roads. And at least when I was a teenager, everybody drove all the time. And looking back on it as an adult, I'm like that was outlandish ly dangerous. How did our parents bear to let us drive around in cars that did not have safety features, like we have now. It just, it's mind boggling. But I you know, I know, several, former, you know, high school classmates who did not see their 21st birthday, who did not see their 18th birthday, you know, because of car accidents. So it's a very present thing. And I just went back to visit my dad recently. And it was the first time that I really thought about, like, what does it mean to grow up, surrounded by like, roadside memorials to people who have died very young. But my inspiration for writing this book in the first place was actually thinking about my sister and how, you know, I had a friend who died when we were 17 in a car accident, and it seemed very chancy to me that I was a good driver for a teenager. I was careful for a teenager. But even so, I mean, it's still a lot of it as fate. And you know, what would have happened if something had happened to me and like, how would my sisters growing up experience have been changed by that? And how would like she as a person be different if my absence had loomed so large? In our family? And yeah, but the family does not resemble my family at all. Yeah, I can relate to what you're saying about these roadside memorials. I live in this I was born in this area, I've always lived here and it's it's a rural slash sort of mean whether they say the way the biggest city and city are putting in quotes because we're not a city. We're a big town, outside of Adelaide, in my State of South Australia, and a lot of kids like there's not a lot to do so the kids go driving, right? And yeah, there's been a lot of accidents over the years use particularly boys, they seem to the boys getting the cars together and to know if they get each other on to take risks or whatever, but Oh, yeah, well, I think if you get the more young boys you get in a group. It's the collective decision making ability goes down. It's Yes, the boys are are. I've warned my he's nine. And I've worn my son about this already. I said, Look, if you're in a group, and it's all young boys, just bad decisions can happen. Be careful. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a lot of driving. And it's not all sober driving. Yeah, they, I mean, they say that kids aren't getting into as much old fashioned trouble anymore. Because they went to computers to when they fly. Yeah. Which is its own kind of risk factor. You know? Yeah. If I remember growing up, dad would always he was my dad's from this area, too. He's from an even smaller town. And he would like say, don't ever get in the car with anyone don't get in the car with boys like because I think he knew, because they've done it himself. But yeah, there's a real Yeah, sure of it. But you're right. I think yeah, it's definitely it's shifting because yeah, of this online world. They're, they're sitting at home playing fortnight or something instead of being together, but I don't know. Different. Yeah. But ya know, I can definitely relate to that. Yeah. So you're talking about your son, if you've just got the one child? Yeah, it was just just him. Yep. So he's nine. Now. The? Yeah. So you started the first draft before he was born. And then you kept writing? In my face, you know, there's additions. So how we, when it came time to write, were you just like up all night? Or like, early in the morning? Like, how did you physically fit in your time to write. So I'm not so good at that there are people who will get up at five o'clock in the morning, there's on Twitter, I think for a while there was a 5am writers club hashtag that a lot of and a lot of them are parents who get up in for the hour before their kids woke up, they would write. And there I have a author friend who is a real night owl, and always up until you know, midnight or whatever, writing. And I just am not good at that at all. I'm like an after lunch writer. So that definitely became very challenging when I especially when he was much smaller. And now. I mean, he's, sometimes he wants to hang out with me, but like, often not really. He has his own stuff he wants to do. But, you know, yeah, like naptime. I would get a little bit in. And then at the time, my husband had a job, where he was gone for like the whole day, he would leave after breakfast and come home after I went to bed. But then he would like build up extra Lake comp hours at work and have to take some time off eventually. So my dad's family has this little beach bungalow, and I would go and just hang out there for a few days and just, you know, write a lot and make a lot of progress. And then that makes it easier to do the like naptime segments. But yeah, I'm still that way. I'm still an after lunch writer. That's like when my brain does it best. But it did. Like when he was smaller, it made it a little bit challenging. And I don't know if there had been more than one of him. I might have had to I might have had to learn how to write earlier late. If I want to get it done. Yeah. So were you after he was born? Like in those early stages, we were you able to write them? Like did you find that that was important for you to still have something for yourself? Or was it just like, not even on your radar? I was I think even from the beginning I was thinking, okay, when am I going to phase it back in before he was born? So I quit my job like a couple months before he was born to finish the book that I was working on and you know, get do things for myself because I knew that that was going to be more difficult, but I also remember saying to someone, yeah, I'm thinking I'll take Get a couple of weeks totally off. And then, you know, I'll like get get back into it. And now I tell people, if they're expecting their first I'm like, Alright, so this is what I thought was gonna happen. And it is so absurd, I feel embarrassed even saying it now, don't expect that of yourself at all, like the first three months are like, just don't even, it's, it'll just be a black hole in your memory. And then the first year actually is like really hard. And then it starts to get a little easier. But it's so the first year was that was a tricky negotiation. Because and I was I was kind of, like full time, parent, but I was still trying to, like wedge the writing work in. And it sometimes was not successful. And it's just, as soon as I guess, when my son was two, he started going to preschool two days a week. And then three, he went three days a week, and now he's in school five days a week. And I can have a much more like, adult schedule. But ya know, but it was hard. Because I was home, I wasn't making money off of my writing, but I was still doing it. And so the the really like full time stay at home parents in my circle, would always have stuff going on, like, Oh, we're going to the storytime today. You know, there'd be something on the agenda every single day. And I just really could not manage that. Because I wouldn't have had any time to like, do work on my stuff. Yep. And so I kind of felt bad a little bit and, you know, caught between two worlds because I wasn't like, I didn't fit in with the working parents and I did not fit in necessarily the like, full time. stay at home parents. Yeah, and I still don't but that's all right. All right, differently prepared. Yeah, exactly. But the at the time when he was in the first and second years of his life, it was kind of a weird landscape. Because I yeah, I felt kind of alone in that. No Man's Land. of you know, I wasn't Yeah, I wasn't beholden to clients or an employer. But I was still trying to, like, keep momentum on my own projects, because I felt like I needed to do them. And so I just like, No, I can't, I can't go to a different storytime every day. I can't just drop everything and go to the aquarium. And know if my kid would have wanted that but. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. You mentioned there about the writing. And at that point, not making money from it? Was that something that sort of was a bit of an internal conflict for you at that stage? Yeah, I, I, I definitely grew up with and still kind of have to do battle with in my head the idea that if, if you're going to demand time and space for something that you're doing like that, the money kind of legitimizes it. And, you know, my book has been pretty successful. And I've tried to be careful with the way I think about that, because it's like, well, no, but it's not. It's not worthwhile because it it made me a certain level of income. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's worthwhile because it it had an impact on people's lives. And it's important and I thought it was necessary for me personally to do. But it's yeah, it has been challenging. And I think it's over the years to I think my husband and I have under like had much more of an understanding than we had at the beginning about why it is important for me to do my work. And, and I've also tried not to put pressure on myself. have to, like make money with it because that's when I start get tempted to, oh, maybe I should like get some extra like freelance work or this that and like pad my income a little bit. But that's taking time away from the sort of career projects that I shouldn't be working on. And there's no reason that I need to be making, like, X number of dollars every month, it just is not even before. Before kids, my husband was complaining about my job. And he said, you know, you don't have to work like, we could survive if you didn't work. So if you want to just like if the job is bothering you that much, like just just quit and like work on your writing, and do that, and see where that takes you. And I was like, No, I need to have a job. What are you talking about? Looking back, I'm like, why? Like I was being underpaid at that job. And I should have just quit and like, pursued my writing earlier. I didn't feel like I had to, I didn't feel like I had the freedom to do that until I became a parent. And that was kind of my reason, like, oh, well, I don't have to have a job. Because, you know, economically, it makes sense for me not to have a job. While you know, the baby is small, and then I can like also work on my writing that I wanted to do. And oh, but if I would have done it sooner, like that kind of thing. But ya know, it is it's tricky. And it's, yeah, we don't live a lavish lifestyle. So I have as I have a lot of leeway with my work, and I don't have a huge amount of pressure to hit, like an income target. And so, you know, whatever I can pay myself is good. But I think the pressure is like all from me. It's not from Yeah, so I feel like that was my music because I don't earn very much at all for my music, and it cost me a lot to make something that I really, really love doing. I wouldn't be able to not do it. So it's like I don't know, my husband's a financial advisor. So it makes life a bit tricky. Sometimes he reminds me What's ironically, I'm, I've been our homes like financial manager for as long as we've been a household because my husband has no, he has no interest in any of that. And so he just, you know, it's, it's funny, and but like, wow, you know, I'm earning my keep by just me like making sure the money goes where it's supposed to win. But it's, yeah, it is. It's not always practical. But I was just reading this book called fair play by Yves Brodsky. And I got to this chapter that was, I think the title, the chapter was reclaim your right to be interesting. And it was all about how, you know, when women become mothers, they often just allow that to like subsume their whole identity. And whoever is expecting us to do that, no one is happy with the results when we are not doing the things anymore that like make us interesting to ourselves, let alone anyone else and that she had asked all these men, you know, can you say, Can you name something? A way that you are proud of your wife. And a lot of them would say, wish she's a wonderful mother or he I don't know what we would do without her. She keeps everything together? And she said no, no, no. But something about her that you are proud of external to what she's doing for you. And then so many of them had nothing. They couldn't name anything that they were proud of their partner for. That didn't revolve around domestic responsibilities. And I say oh, that's That's so sad. And I realized you it hasn't always we haven't always been in complete agreement about how each of our time should be divvied up here, but I know you know, my husband says all the all the time is, uh, you know, Oh, I'm so proud of you. Like you're doing these like really impressive things. And, you know, I feel like what am it I'm just going and like by I'm writing, as I know, that's cool too. But you know that, that it's, I didn't mean to do do it for that reason. But I, as I read that chapter, I was like, oh, that's what we did, though, is that we made room for me to keep doing my creative work. But that's the thing that sort of makes me who I am and makes my my life interesting. And, you know, if I'm not, if I'm not doing it, I'm not really showing up as an ideal person to live with. I can relate to that. Yeah, that's what I'm, I don't think of it as like taking resources away from your family, because you need to invest some resources in your own, you know, intellectual sustenance, or else, it's just, you're not going to be showing up as the person that you want to be eventually. I couldn't agree with that more. That's, that's, that has put it so well, I'm taking that quote. And you're gonna hear that quote, In your introduction? Because that is spot on. Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel that way with your son? I mean, he's nine. So he, you know, he'd be aware of what mom does. Do you feel like that's important that he sees you as more than just want to say just mum, because we never just mom, but you know what I mean? Yeah, no, that's very important to me. And even before he was born, I, I wrote down somewhere, I would say, I want him. I want him to see me, as you know, a parent who does who like achieves things. And who wants things for themselves and who does something. And I, yeah, and I, even when he was very small, and I was doing less of my own work, I started to realize how important to me it was for, for him to see that. And not just see me like keeping the house and my husband going out and doing things and having an interesting job that he went to. And then I don't know, I would, I was a child of two working parents. And I just remember seeing my mom worked so hard, and she still does, like where she's like, one of the hardest working people I know. And she, you know, she would dabble in things, you know, crafts and stuff that she did just for herself. But I remember as a kid, you know, wishing that she had like, there was more space for her to do things like that, or what? Even when I was a kid, obviously no kid ever asked to say, Mom, what did you actually want to do? Before you had a child, or, you know if you could have had any career because she I mean, she worked at this store. And you know, did I think that her dream in life was to like work at the store. Yeah, that's what she ended up doing. And like, we all have something we ended up doing. Like I didn't become like a famous musician as I planned, either. But yeah, it's interesting, even as a kid, and especially after my sister was born, and she was working like an overnight shift, and she would come home and like, take a little like, hour nap and then take my sister to preschool and like, go back to work. And even as a selfish teenager, I was like, how is she doing this? Like, how does she how is this like, survivable for her? And I mean, I think Mountain Dew was the answer. When I asked her she's like I drink a lot of Mountain Dew. but I just I wanted, because I had the privilege to do so. And I was aware even as a young person that my own mother did not have as much privilege as I have to pursue something that like, I alone could not live off of my, like, my contributions to our household are not like, paying the mortgage and buying the groceries. But I, yeah, I like I wanted my son to see that. I have, you know, an identity, and aspirations and things that I am doing. Because I think it's a lot also to put on a child. If they are, like, everything you have going on. It's just, it just feels like maybe that's a maybe that's a like a heavy thing. Like, if, if I am the thing that my parents is like living through, you know, what does that what expectations does that put on me and like, how I enjoy and experience my life? And yeah, you know, as opposed to if we are to humans who are very much enmeshed in each and each other's existence. But also, like, it's, yeah, when I, when I was younger, I had some relationships where I just did not realize that you should always have something else going for your own, like mental stability, like you shouldn't put all of your eggs in one relational basket, you know, because stuff falls apart. And you know, it's, if your kid is having a hard time. And that's hard time for you, like, having something to turn to. Hmm. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So that if, if I'm having a big parenting struggle, you know, hopefully, I'm not also having a big riding struggle. But even if I am, it's the way out of those struggles is very different. And the amount of control I have over the resolution of those struggles is very different. So it's definitely a little bit of a balancing thing. Yeah, I think even Yeah, even before kids are involved, or even if they're not involved, I think it's so important for, for couples to have something that that isn't each other. Something they can go and do by themselves. Because we all need space, you know, we all have to Oh, yeah, have to have time align and do things we enjoy and reset, spend time with other people, and then we can come back fresh and, you know, give each other time to miss each other. You know, we're not in each other's pockets all day long. Oh, we are, especially now that I mean, we've been both working from home since 2020. So if you don't have something else going on, I feel like that's a that's a problem. But yeah, my mom always told me that when I was I was as a child very a I get very attached to like one best friend. And then, you know, I when I was in high school, I had, you know, boyfriend and so then like, I focused all my energy on that. And my mom always told me, she's like, Yeah, this is you. You never know what's going to happen. And you should never like, just have one person. Because what if you get into a fight, then you're just alone, you know? And, but it's, it's very true that it's, yeah, like, even without kids. It's too it's too much on one person to make you know, this relationship, like the thing I have going on. Yeah, it's, yeah, the ability to like leave and come back. And, you know, my, I guess my parents set an example of that, for me, because they like their extracurricular activities outside the house. We're, I'm trying to think if any of them were like things they did together. I'm not sure they were. Yeah. That, you know, my mom had stuff that she did. She like, did bowling and you know, my dad would go on golf trips with his friends. But yeah, it's, you know, they didn't. They didn't feel like oh, boy, I have to include you. Yes. So, yeah, that's awesome. That's it. It's very important. We call it mum guilt, mom guilt, mommy guilt, whatever you want to call it. How do you feel about that? Do you? Do you resonate with that at all? Or something you don't even? Not even on your radar? Oh, it's definitely on the radar. Yeah, so when my son was very small, he did not really get upset when I would leave to go, you know, if I went to the beach for three, four days to write, he was fine. And I, I'm trying to think when it was it, it's like the, just the past maybe two years, I feel like he's become much more attached to me. And started to develop a very different relationship with his dad than he has with me, which makes sense because like, we're very different people that he gets very different things from. But he it also means that he like actively, like, vocally misses me when I go away. And he'll send me messages from his iPad. It's like, I miss you so much with like, the crying face emoji and like, and he'll, you know, he'll be really sad. And I've, like, I feel, you know, what, it's hard. Because then even before when he wouldn't get that sad, even though you know, right before, it was like, the day that I was leaving, I would always feel guilty. Like, is this? Like, should I really be doing this? You know, is it really worth all this to like, leave my kid behind. And now, you know, now that he's older as I go, I'll miss you so much. And it's very sweet. But it's also it plays into that guilt of, like, is this like, really? Okay, for and in logically, I'm like, of course it is. Because he needs to learn how to, this is like a human experiences, like people go away, and we miss them, and they come back, and we're happy to see them. And that's a very normal and healthy part of existence. And someone should have told me that and said, Please, like, don't miss out on the opportunity to study abroad in college, just because you don't want to, like, miss someone that you're dating. Like. That's, that's not acceptable. But, um, yeah, so of course, I know that it's like a developmental thing. That's good, you know, for him to learn that I will leave and then also come back. And that is, that is okay. And we can all survive. But yeah, it is, especially if he's like, going through a tough time. Where, you know, maybe he's been like arguing with his dad, or like, he got in trouble in school or something. And he's feeling extra, like needy of the, like, emotional, like, sit around and talk support that he comes to me for, you know, then I feel extra because I'm like, Oh, this is a terrible time to be leaving him. Like, why am I leaving him now? But, yeah, it's so it's hard. And then when, at the beginning of at the beginning of this year, I worked a lot to do developmental editing on this book that's coming out in the spring, and I didn't pay attention to my own social life or my family or anything. It was it was attractive as a dark time. But he like basically organized his own birthday party and like, set everything up outside and I felt a little bad because I was like, oh, no, you know, I didn't even like, I didn't even get it together to help my child. Like, just put tape on me. He's like, carrying the folding chairs outside. Yeah, so it definitely I adapt honestly feel it. And even though he like, thinks it's very cool that I'm an author, I think he thinks that authors are like, famous and make a lot of money. Yes, I want to be a writer when I grow up too. And I was like, Well, if you're doing it for the money, I'm, I'll tell you right now. That's, that's not the way but yeah, so like he thinks it's very, very cool. But I still do like, especially when I go away. Yeah, if I travel to like, I do a writing retreat with a friend every year, even if I just go for a couple days to the beach to to catch up. Yeah, it's like, it's like, right before I leave is when it's the worst. Yes. And I just have that like, avalanche of self doubt. That's like, but like, I should be here for him. And, you know, always sad and. But and then do you tell yourself that's not true? Yeah, I just tried to tell myself. No, that's, and of course, my husband says he'll be fine. It's fine. Like, he'll like when you leave, then he'll just like, you're gone. So it's not like you're leaving. It's you're already gone. And then he just will find others. He'll find stuff to do. And I'll be fine. Sorry. Okay. Usually, yeah. Oh, yeah. What sort of music are you doing? So my, when I was a kid, I was involved in a lot of community groups, my favorite was pit orchestra for musicals, operas, and stuff. That was a lot of fun. And I did some chamber music, which was also fun. And I plan to go to school for it until I didn't. And then was that violin or cello what we've learned. So I started on the violin, and I picked up the flute in fourth grade. And that was where I had the most aptitude. It's hard to find a place for yourself as a flute player sometimes. So I played violin, in some groups that were looking to fill in a big violin section, and if I actually had to be really good, that's when I got the flute I, you know, for orchestra or band or something needed someone to fill in for a concert, I would just like kind of drop in for the dress rehearsal and play the concert the next day and have a good time. I could do that on the flute. I could not do that on any other instrument for sure. Yeah. But it was it was a ton of fun. I miss it a lot. Doing that stuff. But yeah, do you play it oh, now just for fun. I haven't in a while because it's a the flute is really a group instrument as far as I'm concerned. And when I moved down here, I did not have a group I didn't I wasn't plugged into all the music community people. I no longer had a community where people would just kind of call me and say that they needed someone. And I didn't know quite how to find that. I'm not the most outgoing person anyone has ever met. So I kind of fell out of it. And then I got a little rusty and I got sad about that. And so now I sort of dabble with the piano and the guitar because they're solitary, more so or they can be but I would love to get back into it. I'm actually looking to scale back some of my other volunteer responsibilities so that I can go back to that again, because it was something that was very nourishing to me at one point in my life and it feels wasteful. It feels wasteful to have a like an outsize ability with something thing and then just to not do anything with it. And I know that's not always the best way to think about stuff but it you know, it's in the back of my head sometimes. Yeah, that was the thing that was the thing you were really good at and be it just didn't do it anymore. Why not? Well, like Yeah, yeah, but no. Yeah, you never do you know, and I I did you know post something online in the spring just to see if anybody had suggestions and I got a whole list. And so I figure when I'm feeling bold and brave, and I've, you know, quit a couple of other things that I need to pass on so you said your books coming out in spring? So what month what month? Is that? So it's April 25. Is the launch date? Yep. April 20. We have that's like our, you know, how you have like Veterans Day or something like that. What do you have? Not Memorial Day? What's your memorial Days in May? Yeah. Veterans Day is in November. Yeah. Okay, we have this that our Anzac days kind of version of that we remember the people that went to war in the First World War. So yeah, 25th. There you go. I won't forget that date. That's important that whereabouts will people be able to get your book from when it comes out? Well, so it's actually, I'm just about to launch into the shameless self promotion phase of things. That's going to be really hitting in January. That's the most uncomfortable part, I think of being an introverted artist of any kind. But it is actually available for preorder now. Yeah, so it's on Amazon. And there's your if you go on indie bound, you can get it I always tell people to get it from the independent bookstore. I know some people buy it on Amazon anyway. But the the local bookstore is where it's at. But then it'll be Yeah, it'll it should be available in ebook to Apple books and can and Kindle. But yeah, I can, I can give a link that has all of that in there. That'd be great. Even though it's the the really like heavy duty promotion is still you know, few weeks, maybe a month away the the preorder links are up and an active and testing. So I hesitate to ask then is there another book in your, in your future? So that's, yeah, there is there's more than one actually. And that's been my big struggle. This year, is getting this one is done. And I now have two or three books that are waiting to be drafted and unfinished. And I don't have anything in between. And it's like having children with a huge age gap. Between them, it's, it's a little disorienting, and you know, it's because 2020 everything shut down. And we had a year and a half I think of virtual school. You know, for which I was the point person. Yeah, so I really like the deep dark days of the pandemic and virtual school time. I did not do intensive like writing projects at all. And because it just was not it wasn't possible. Yeah, I know it was for some people it was was not for me. And I did you know my little podcast for my Patreon people and I did blog posts. But you know, I books were not getting written during like virtual school and trying to figure out how to get like canola oil on toilet paper, it just the in terms of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we were really stuck at the base for a long time. But now this year, I have come out of that I've had a lot more time to work. And it's but it is very difficult to come to terms with the work that didn't happen during that time. Because that work that didn't happen means that I don't have books that are well into the editing phase now that I've I'm like, Ah, I have to you know, really kick it into high gear and draft up these books and get them you know, somewhere. But yeah, but it was a little demoralizing for a moment. And it still is sometimes. Just just how much time I lost. And I'm sure many, many parents in my similar situation. Have that. Yeah, it's like, your, your thing had to just completely stop so that your children's things could happen. Yeah. And just that we were all all of us here all the time. Yeah, yeah. So the books, you've got your, in your head that are going to happen, are they fiction or nonfiction ones? So I have my next novel, pretty well planned out. And it's just a matter of drafting it. I've never had quite so much a plan before. I mean, it's a very loose plan, because I don't, I'm not a heavy outliner or planner for fiction. And nonfiction, I have an essay collection that I've been working on. That's my, my next two nonfiction books are going to be much less prescriptive than, than the first and much more like personal experience writing like memoir style. Because that's a lot of people seem to have connected with my writing makes you feel seen. Yeah. And to have an experience similar to their own, like, articulated in a certain way. And so I'm excited to really, like lean into that. Yeah. It sounds good, to be very valuable, you know, people feel like what they're going through is legitimate, I guess. And you talked about that community that you've sort of built around your first book. Yeah, yeah. So important. A lot of people have written and said, you know, thank you for putting this out there. And I thought that I was the only one who had this experience. And, you know, it's reassuring to know that it's not just me. So good on Yeah. Because it can be quite daunting to sort of share like that, to put it all out there. And did you have moments like that when you're writing the book, you're thinking or do I? How much of this do I want to share? I suppose, or are you just passionate about getting it all out there. So as a nonfiction writer, I, I don't have a whole lot of a filter. I although I will say some of my most successful writing has been the stuff I was most afraid to put out there. So that kind of says something. I actually feel a lot more anxious about putting my not my fiction out into the world, which is an interesting thing. I think it's just because I know not everyone's gonna like me. And so as a nonfiction writer, you know, if people don't, this is who I am. And if it doesn't resonate with people, or they, they don't like, they don't like me or my take on the world, then it's, in some ways easier for me to just be like, okay, like, really, I've, I've never been for everyone. And I don't need to be the likeable character in your story, either. So that's okay. A lot of people are responding to it. Yeah, but fiction and something that's entirely your own creation. It's, it does feel very different. Because it's, yeah, it's something that I created specifically to resonate with the most people possible. But even so, if you've ever been in a book club, it no book is for everyone. Yeah, I kind of feel like that. Like, we've, in general, like, I mean, I love I love and respect every artist that I meet because of what they're doing, just because they're doing the thing that they love, and they getting it out there. But I don't necessarily resonate with every kind of art, you know, and same with music, ya know? And I think that's fine. That's what makes us human and different. We're all different. And that's fine either. That's, yeah, that's completely normal. Yeah, that's resonating with someone it's, you know, it's and but it is interesting because I it occurred to me at some point this year, so I'm a lot more nervous about this book launch earlier on, than I was with the last one. The last one was like on launch day, I kind of had a little bit of a panic. Just like what if this is actually terrible, and no one told me but You know, which this book is not self published. So it's I mean, I, I've had like a whole team behind it. It's not terrible and no one said anything. It's still like, I know, because I just know people, you know, people are gonna get on Good Reads and write some scathing criticism. And it's just it's going to happen and it's why they tell you don't read your don't read your own reviews. Yeah, it's better not to know. You just gotta be what you've done. And if people message and say how much they loved it, that's what you hold on to. Yeah, no, I have a whole folder of those like, I never get rid of those. Those reader emails, I just drag them all into the into the little folder. Alright, whenever I need this. Yes, that is awesome. Yep. Good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. I really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a pleasure to meet you. All the best with the with the release that's coming out in April, and with your future work, and I'll definitely share anything I say because I just think what you're doing is awesome. And yeah. Thanks again. Oh, thank you. Yeah, no, this is nice. I appreciate it. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim, Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Janelle Thomas Dubai based singer + songwriter S2 Ep64 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Janelle Thomas, a singer, songwriter and performer based in Dubai, UAE. and a mum of 2 boys. Janelle begin performing at the age of 5, at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons, and played in the high school Marching Band playing clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20's deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Music at Concordia College in Montreal. Her day job wasn’t satisfying her, and fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for 4 months. Without really knowing where Oman was, she said yes! That was 16 years ago and she has performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract, when he joined the band as the guitarist and they have been together ever since. Janelle and Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015, they continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting two wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud, high-voltage 5-7 piece pop cover bands (as bandleader and musical director, respectively). Under the guise of "Lady J Duo" they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics, and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary, good-vibes-only listening experience that is elegant, yet funky. In the Autumn of 2012 they released Noise Rises (Strange Cat Records), an album of retro-inspired funky soul, featuring ten original songs they wrote together. In the spring of 2020, during the Dubai Covid-19 lockdown, Janelle and Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity, showcasing their favourite tunes, taking on-the-spot requests, and cameos by their firstborn Theo (a natural show-stealer). They continued these for 18 months. You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast today, and her music is used with permission. Connect with Janelle website / facebook / instagram Podcast - instagram / website You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast, and her music is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast this week. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Janelle Thomas, a singer songwriter and performer based in Dubai in the UAE, and a mom of two boys. Janelle began performing at the age of five at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons and played in the high school marching band on clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20s deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music at Concordia College in Montreal. her day job wasn't really satisfying. And fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for four months. without really even knowing where Oman was. She said yes, that was 16 years ago, and she's performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract when he joined the band as the guitarist. Janelle And Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015. They continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting to wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud High Voltage five to seven piece, pot cover band as bandleader and musical director respectively, under the guise of the Lady J. God, Lady J. bein Janelle, they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary good vibes only listening experience that is elegant yet funky. In the autumn of 2012. They released noise rises through strange cat records are an album of retro inspired funky soul, featuring 10 original songs that they wrote together in the spring of 2020. During the Dubai COVID-19 lockdown, Janelle And Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity showcasing their favorite chains, taking on the spot requests and featuring cameos by their firstborn Theo and natural show stealer. They continue these for 18 months. You're here Janelle is amazing vocals throughout this podcast today, and their music is used with permission. I hope you enjoy today's episode Gavin lane, got a fistful. Gonna run that bill will be the end of a long route backwards dad. No place my hands. Man and we're all gonna say welcome Janelle. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for having me. Allison. I'm excited. Yeah, so I can I can hear your lovely accent. You're from Canada. Is that right? I am. I'm from Canada, but I live in Dubai. Alright, so what how like, how long have you lived there for what sort of brought you there? So while the music Yeah. So my husband and I have been together 16 years. He's also Canadian. And we started traveling in a band. So So we were playing hotel residencies in the Middle East and throughout Asia. We did that for about eight, nine years. And then it brought us to Dubai. So we've been here since January 2015. And we're residents here now. And we've had two little boys here. So this is this is home for the time being. Yeah. So these are really hot there. Let the moment super hot. Yeah. I just got in from the pool. So I'm okay at the moment. But yeah, summers are very long they and very hot, especially with small kids. You really feel it so much more, because you're basically just inside for five months? Yeah, but it can get up to 50 degrees Celsius. Sand humid. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, the outdoors is kind of non existent, aside from if you're doing something in the water. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. With us being from Canada, we do have a bit of that experience. Because you'll have really cool times in the winter, where you don't go outside, you're not gonna go take a stroll or take your baby out or anything. But they don't tend to be constant, you know, you'll have cold days, and then it kind of warms up enough. And you pack on your layers and you go outside, whereas when it's hot, it's just hot. Yeah. Because you can't do anything you Yeah, yeah. So, um, so we used to find this. Okay. And since we had kids, we just find them brutal. So we're just counting down till October. Oh, my gosh. So what's like an average sort of when it when it's not so hot? What's the weather like, then? So lovely. You know, there's kind of six months of a year where it's gorgeous. And you kind of can't think about living anywhere else. So I would say sort of the coolest it gets probably in January, maybe days that are around 20 to 25. But Sunny, and gorgeous. It's perfect. Yeah, I mean, those are the times where I find it too cold to go swimming. I say that as a Canadian where I grew up swimming in icy lakes. But yeah, I get I get in the water now. And it's the season you sort of, you're sort of forced to do things that you wouldn't necessarily do if you had your own choice. If you lead with me. Love you. So tell me about how you got into music because it's something you've always done. Yes. And no, you know, probably like a lot of musicians always been a music lover. There was always lots of music in our house, my parents, neither of whom are musicians, but we had, you know, huge record collection. And there was always lots of singing and dancing that was encouraged. So, actually, I started performing. From age five, I lived in a really small town, and we had we had little ballet school. And that, for me was everything like those ballet recitals at the end of the year, you know, with costumes and makeup and lights. So I would say that that's where it all started was was there. So for the first few years, I danced, I took piano lessons, as you do. And then when it was time to go to high school, actually, I chose to go to high school in the big city, which was Montreal. My dad used to commute he drove back and forth. So actually I commuted with him like super early mornings and stuff like that, to go to high school. But I really wanted that school because it was the only one in the city that had a marching band. I was in the marching band and nerd for years playing the clarinet. And I played the trombone for a year. And then after that, you know sort of spent my 20s I think sort of struggling with am I going to be an artist? Can I be an artist? Or should I get a real job? You know, I did do a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music. Yeah, because when it was time for university, I thought I really like to do something I enjoy. I might spend three years enjoying myself and then need to become an accountant or something serious, but give it a go, you know? Yeah, and then just sort of bounce back and forth, did some contracts, then some admin work and then would be, you know, kind of happy with the lifestyle of neither. But it just kept pulling me back in I really was miserable when I was being an administrator even though I had some great jobs and lovely people. Have you know, and there was just a moment where I realized, like, I cry before I go to work every day at this very nice job. It's just such a nice job for somebody else. It's not for me, I can't do this. I'm only 26, whatever, to have given up. And so actually chance meeting with a musician I knew. And he said, We've just lost our singer. And we have a gig in Oman. And do you want to join our band and travel for four months? And I said, okay, and then said, Where's omen? While it's kind of next to Dubai, it was okay. But I never heard of it. So that was 16 years ago. Yeah, like when, and it was really different experience starting to travel then I mean, we had an app and there was no, YouTube, there was no Facebook, there was none of that kind of even the amount of information that you'd have was limited. It was people's blogs, and, you know, blurry photos and that kind of thing. So it was a relatively scary and endeavor to embark on. I think the thing that saved me is the four guys in the band that I went with, had all been there the year before. So they did have lots of first hand experience. But of course, coming from Canada and traveling to the Middle East for my first real big overseas adventure, let some preconceptions about how it's going to be and I thought, well, I'll just do four months, and then I'll go home. And then 16 years later. Still here. So your husband's musical as well. You guys played together? Where did you make the line? So I met him after that first contract. So actually, I did one conch. I did one more than he's done. So I joined here Monday. Oh, yes, we're totally keeping score, who's played more show? So I joined the band in January and somehow got asked to be the bandleader. I really feel it was by default, because everyone else in the band was French Canadian. And I was the only one who spoke English. And with my administrative background, I spoke good business English. So, you know, I would have the current bandleader coming to me and saying, Can you help me formulate this email? And I'm like, Yeah, you can't start it with Pedro. You know, it has to be a little more formal than that. So he kind of went, well, could you just do it? I was like, Okay, I guess so. So I certainly took on all the admin tasks, which also involves liaising with any of the agents or hotels that we were, you know, that we were dealing with, because these are five star properties, you know, the Grand Hyatt and Hilton and everything, like you needed to kind of be a little bit more on it than that it was the time. So we did the one gig. And then we went back to Montreal for this summer and made a couple of changes to the lineup, the guitars that we had was leaving. And so we went through about oh, my gosh, seven guitarists trying to find a good fit. And finally got Felix who was recommended by a friend of a friend. He was only 22. At the time, he lived in an even smaller town than the one I was from, like, 500 people. And, you know, 20,000 Cows was kind of where he was coming from. He'd never been on a plane. And so for him, it was an equally big adventure. And he, but he was kind of in a place in his life where he wasn't really happy and had just finished his musical education, you know, informally in college, and that, and he sort of same as me with, well, I'll do it for four months. And yeah, and then we got together pretty much right away. So that definitely helped us both feel like this was something that we wanted to stick with. And so yeah, so we've been together a long time. Oh, that's an awesome story. I love that. And isn't it just so typical in the music world? It's like, it's a friend of a friend or someone new this person or it's just the way it goes? Isn't it? Just this connection of people? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, we're very lucky. But that and it's also funny, too, that there's, I'm, you know, the more that I have, the longer that I am a musician, the more I'm amazed by stories of bands who have that longevity, you know, like bands like YouTube, where they have the same members forever. Because I know even in a couple, it can be really hard to have exactly the same vision for the music and the same vision for the timing of how you want things to go. You know, when we had mostly we play as a duo now, but But we spent most of our time together playing with larger groups. And there were lots of fantastic musicians we played with, who would say I'm tired of traveling, I want to go home and be with my other half, or we had someone leave to go to med school. And it was kind of doable, but you're an amazing keyboard player, he was okay. But I want to be a doctor. So, so to realize that not only does the music have to work, but where you are in your life at that time. It has to work like that for people could do that for 30 years. It is it's incredible, isn't it? When you break it down like that you think of all the things that could have changed or gone wrong, or like it's, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's still we actually liking each other and getting on like, right. I'm not saying that about you and your husband? I mean, I'm talking about you too. No, no, no, you can say it about us too. Yeah. Gosh. Adding up your misery causes in the shop, you've been dumped by text, then being slipped. You're wondering what's next, baby. Though life's looking great. You can choose not to decide. I have listened to some of your tracks online, you have got a powerhouse voice. I love your voice. It's I love a bit of built voice. It's so good. passion and energy. Yeah, so did you have like formal lessons for your voice? Or did you just sort of instinctively feel it out and work it out yourself? I've had very few, very few. So I went to university in jazz boys, but have had zero lessons. Before I started I had they went to Concordia, University of Montreal and one of the things I love about their program is they want it to be more inclusive. So unlike some of the other universities that really kind of only take you if you've been through the conservatory stream, or what have you, they just sort of said, if you want to play come audition, first, show us what you can do. And then we'll teach you all the back end, after you know, so. So I was kind of on the edge because I'd had quite a I had a fantastic teacher in high school, you know, but but wasn't quite there. So still needed to do more training, you know that you're training and theory and harmony and all of that to come. So they call that sort of like a zero level to get up to level one to be with everyone else. But but in terms of the singing, I did have contract wasn't really, it really wasn't much. There's only about two semesters of vocal lessons with Jerry Brown, who was their vocal jazz instructor. One of the things I'm really grateful to her for it is she she just gave me a lot of opportunity to get onstage, which I think I really I really needed at that time. As you can see, that's the part that I've hung on to like, gosh, don't ask me any harmony theory now that's long forgotten, but it's still performing. And, and then after that I did. I did a musical review from point and there was a really great vocal coach there as well. So she I mean, the coaching was quite specific to the songs for the show. But she was she came from a musical theater background. So that kind of helps with all that. Belting and being on stage and having to really, again, like project and in a very much like onstage performance way as opposed to recording or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it is so different, isn't it? It's yeah, two completely different things. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of the music that you do, I know, I've seen that you write your husband and yourself right together. And you do have this, but I think the way I can't remember how you worded it now on your website, but it was really clever. It's like you could take any style of song and turn it into your own basically, is that how you look at when you're, you're doing your comments. That wasn't how we started. But that's very much Where to now that we've seen too, just in general, I think I think YouTube has been great for for that for introducing the general audience to kind of the magic of reinterpreting you know, reinterpreting styles, so, especially groups like postmodern jukebox, and we're big fans of scary pockets who do funk covers of whatever, you know. So we've found in recent times, that's gotten a lot of traction for us. And it's also cool because when we spent a decade basically just playing pop music, and lots of songs that we love, and it was, you know, full on big songs, Sweet Child of Mine and Highway to Hell sometimes and all these kinds of things. And now we don't have to lose that repertoire because we can translate it. So we do funk version of sweet child of mine, we do a jazz version of, you know, you shook me all night long. And, and, and sort of, you know, all kinds of other things. And so it's a lot of fun for us, I find in that way, it's a more creative process than it used to be where we were just sort of the cover band who had to, as best as we could reproduce what was on the record. You know, that's what we kind of did for a long time trying to bring life to the album version, but but it was pretty much you know, in the box, and it's not so much now. Yeah, that is good. Because like, I don't, obviously, I don't know what the audiences are like in Dubai, I can only speak from my, my tiny little town, but my sister and I had a lot of experience singing in bands, my sister more than me, but, and I did a lot of covers as a soloist. And sometimes your audience just wants to hear the songs that they know, done in the way that they know. And it can be really challenging to get them past that, and to push them a little bit. So it sort of can be hard to know, like, unless your audience is ready for it can be really daunting to try and put in something else and even like putting in originals is like, you know, is that you can sort of relate to that very much very much. And, you know, the audiences in Dubai are high maintenance, I find that way. They're great. And they love live music. And we, I mean, we have a career as purely full time performing musicians, you know, we don't have other jobs we don't teach, we're so lucky. This is what we've been able to do for 16 years. But at the same time, I think that demands are such from us, the as you said, like if it's Hotel California, just play the solo, don't do anything else they want to sing along, maybe they know this solo, you know, they need to hear it as they know it. So there are some songs where we just kind of were like, we're not even gonna attempt that, that you guys just you need it the way you need it. So that's fine. But actually, it's been surprising that they've been as open as they, as they are to hearing different versions of things, we find there's very few opportunities where they're really open to hearing things that they don't know like in that sort of why we don't one of the reasons why we don't do more original music here. The other reason is we have two small children. We got like no time or brain space to write anything. But also there really isn't the opportunity for that you just and you know it's hard when you're playing and you see everyone's eyes kind of glazing over. Yes, I know that feels like you feel like I've got these people they go and really good and then you put in you think I'll take a chance now putting this out and then it's like dammit, I want to stop halfway through despite all the fire alarm. Oh, it's funny, isn't it it was the story that drew me in. Hell you were so inspired by the man with a Viking didn't know it was just you using views and trying to confuse So you mentioned that the two small children How old are your children? So we have two boys who is four and a half and Hendrix is two. Oh, I love it is a great night. Oh that's good. We figured we have to get away at least we're both your parents are musicians. Yeah. Do something a little little left to center it to each night. Yeah, it's almost like it'd be a shame if you did it. Right. So did they like they enjoy sort of hearing you guys playing the guitar or singing at home? You know what, it's funny actually, we don't do nearly enough playing at home. I think that that's one of the for us. One of the hard things about maybe gigging as much as we do you know, and I hate to say there's anything hard about it because I know we're very blessed but like we're we're tired during the Ha, we're good. So I know other people will say, Oh, you must just grab a guitar and sing along all the time. And I'm just, I'm just trying to keep it quiet. And I talk too much during the day, because I gotta go work tonight. You know, when we do, they love it, obviously, they're totally exposed, you know, there's instruments around, they can play what they want, they can sing a lot. We, during COVID, one of the things we did to sort of stay in touch with people is we started live streaming, it was new for us. But we were locked down here in Dubai. And like, when we had our lockdown, it was locked in a locked down, like we did not go outside of the apartment for 35 days, at one point, everything is very delivery oriented in Dubai, even before COVID. So it was quite easy. So you can still get, you know, your medication or groceries or whatever, it all came to the door. But so we were struggling with being trapped in the house at the time, I was four months pregnant and you know, being trapped together with your husband and your two year old. Boy, it was like, Okay, we were feeling really lonely. You know, so we thought, let's try live streaming. And it just got a great reaction. And we realized, actually, that we'd spent so long making music and traveling for people all over the world, but not are our families and our, our people at home because what we do go home for our one month of holiday. Most years. We're like we don't, we're on holiday, I know, I need a break. And I'm what we used to play in a band, it was always really loud music six days a week. And vocally, I needed a massage, you know, so I could do the next 11 months, that kind of thing. So, so those people just, they don't know, they don't know what we do. So our family and friends were just tuning in in droves, you know, and people also to have their own, you know, lockdown of whatever degree. So we found, especially people who are alone, so, you know, kind of in the moms category, but a lot of these are women who live alone, who were really, really isolated. So being able to come on and see us and and we started bringing Bo on and then it was like, forget it. Like we felt like we played a 55 minute, like opening act. So they didn't come on for the last five. You just have people chiming in, in the chat going to have the open arms. And other people like No, no, it hasn't come yet. Okay, like whatever, like we're just the warm up. But this was lovely. Yeah, it was great to see that, that he had fans. And it was a way to, for us to also share what we have, like it's so we kind of got released, you know, into the wild, maybe sooner than in Canada or the UK. So we were back out and doing activities. You know, before people there were. And so then actually, we sort of started this whole new feature of also just filming the activities that we did. So if we went we took to the or to the aquarium, or we went to the pizza or just rode the metro or whatever. We just filmed them. And it was just kind of, you know, life in Dubai, and he would come on and he would narrate the whole thing, which people love. So he tell him, you know, if we went to the petting zoo, and all that, so yeah, he was super into that. So it's a bit sad that now that we've gotten busier, we don't have the same kind of time to do that. Because I think it was a really special features special time that we ended up doing. Probably about 100, like full hour or hour, it became an hour and a half because an hour wasn't enough, you know. And we played games, we did like a quiz show, and we did all kinds of stuff. I'm disappointed because that would have been amazing. Our Australian friends did have trouble turning it because it was like 12 It was midnight or one in the morning for you know, maybe my nurse friend coming off shift at the hospital. So you catch a bit but that was awkward on is that oh, yeah, I could certainly relate to that. Like, you know, you're doing it for yourself because you need something to keep that creativity sort of going, you know, but yeah, like you said the the upside of that is people on the other end are getting so much out of it. So yeah, my news for Don Yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, it was good. And it's it was really nice to that over the course of the probably about 18 months that we ended up doing it You had to it was kind of starting at just about two, not even two and a half. And so that for me now has been such great memories to preserve to really see him growing. And you hear him singing, and he's singing more in tune as the time goes along, and then his baby, and I'm getting more and more pregnant, you know, and then his baby brothers, and then his baby brother is coming now and singing when we do you know, the two of them sing together and all that. So it's been, it's been really nice to be able to share that with with people for whom it's that's also really meaningful to them. Yeah, it's a very small, but very important and significant audience. Yeah. Well, that's lovely. That is, it's a lovely little snapshot to have, isn't it of that period of time in your life yeah. How did you go singing when you were pregnant? Did you find you your breath was affected, like the diaphragm and all that from having this baby? Good times. For out of breath. And super out of breath. Like, both times, actually, I think I was more out of breath in my first trimester than I was at the end, you know. So that was, so when I was pregnant with Theo, we were actually still on our hotel are the very last of our hotel residency gigs. So it was here in Dubai. But it was still three or four nights a week, nightclub Smokies still jumping up and down that kind of thing. Still being expected to do shots with people like I just had to constantly be making excuses for why more I was telling people that I was pregnant, you know. So that would be jumping up and down still having to do, you know, Highway to Hell. And whenever that was tough, that was tough in that sense. And I think once you start showing and you're pregnant, it's, then people understand, oh, yeah, okay, well, you're going to take it easy, you're not going to jump around so much. So then just my feet were killing. But with deal I performed up until so this was 2017. So I performed up until two days before he was born. Because he came three weeks early. Yeah, I was it was supposed to be my last go. And, and even had my friend, our great friend who's the drummer at the time, and he said, you know, you better take it easy, because you don't want your water to break onstage. I think it's totally said as a joke. And it didn't, but it did 20 hours later, like it nearly did. And I thought oh my gosh, it just would have ruined that status. All the cables, like I could just imagine everything's covered in like goop, you know? Yeah, so I did my last show. And then he was born less than 48 hours later. Was it supposed to be like that, but anyhow, he had other plans. So that was, it was great. Like, actually, I love being pregnant and still singing, I felt really good. I felt really healthy. My feet were sore all the time. But But aside from that, the guys I worked with, were super supportive, you know, and, and people loved it, too. You know, we like we are played at Hard Rock Cafe at that time, which is a very, very much a family venue out here. And so you just have women coming up all the time and and remembering their pregnancies. And it just felt really wholesome, kind of like family, family values sort of thing. And that was definitely my plan being pregnant with Hendrix too, but you know, COVID can kind of hit when I was about four months pregnant. So So one of the things they did here in Dubai is in addition to the lockdown then even when we were, you know, kind of free to go out again, there were still really, really tight restrictions on entertainment for quite a long time. So. So even though I was ready, I was like, you know, we've been out of work, went back at it, even though I'm seven months pregnant now or whatever. I couldn't and so, so then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gigs that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it though physically like we did you you must have Like, good birth and everything like good after, or was it like really? I did, like I really, you know, I had great pregnancies and the actual deliveries were a little bit tough at times I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like convinced showing us on this Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage, everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said Hampshire, you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby, like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit. My feet were so swollen. And I thought, you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can. Like, I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just, I couldn't even put my feet in anything. And so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is, please, everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah. But, but I got there. And I really, we, you know, we played three sets. And I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna faint. Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea. I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches. So I couldn't sit. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want a stool. I'm like, no, no, no stool, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like cling on to the mic stand for the first few sets. But you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. So everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see as you know, we've been six months since we've been there. Because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually the third set, good. The third set was better and it was kind of okay, well, this is the power of music that what it can actually do for all of us. But oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Ah, I'll take my hat off to you. Honestly, that's that is amazing. Good on you. Was there ever any question in your mind that you weren't going to do it though? Did you ever think? No, I just No, I cannot do it was like that. I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it. It's happening. And you know, I will say that, like six months of unemployment is a really good motivator for that, too. You're just like, yeah, no, no, we need to start having the ball of finances you know, ball financial ball rolling, like ASAP so, yeah, I'm gonna get on stage. Now when I look at it. I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're a crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Good. Take up drinking is Elton cloud syncing, trial fun and give thinking, wow. Get out and founded by Anna less than wrenching. You go up to your head. Do them. How long did were you away from the station before you came back? Four weeks, maybe four weeks? Five weeks? Yeah. It took it took longer. I will say at that time. But I felt good. You know, I felt like I was ready to be back. But of course the first time. I just couldn't imagine the legit sticks of having to leave him like it wasn't even necessarily that I was nervous to leave him with somebody else. Because of course, like, free COVID, right, he was kind of everyone had helped him and everybody, you know, we used to just like people cough, germs all of our babies all the time. So, you know, that was okay, I was comfortable with that. But I could barely figure out like how to get out of the house, in under four hours, you know, when we would have a doctor's appointment? Like I would literally be preparing for that. Hours and hours ahead of time and still be late all the time. You know, I think one of the the differences too is I was breastfeeding exclusively. The he didn't do any auto feeding for the first two months. So that too, I was just kind of like, how does that work? How are they gone? So actually, the first gig that I did with Theo was one that had come in, and it was in our neighborhood. So it was like 10 minutes walk from the house, it just happened. And I thought this one I can do, you know, I can live and it was one that had a kind of a strange pacing for the evening. So in the middle of the evening, there was like a one and a half hour break. And I thought I can do that. I'll just run home, like in my show clothes, and then feed my baby and then run back to the gig and then come back after. Yeah, so it just kind of worked out that that was one and then you know, quite quickly realizing I have to make a compromise somewhere like I can't just be exclusively breastfeeding. If I want to also be on stage I have to be able to be away for four gigs. So but that's a hard, a hard, you know, thing to work out in your head the first time whereas then by the second baby, I was more comfortable with the idea of bottle feeding and then it was easier to step away. Yeah. Oh, good on you. That is awesome. Like, I'm so impressed by that. I'm gonna put a round of applause sound effect through that. But I will tell you on that gig, which was a bit of a venue that anyway, I was very dark for a reason, let's just say and I was literally in the bathroom, like, you know, pumping milk at one point and watching a cockroach crawling across the wall. And I thought, Here I am making food for my baby like I'm trying like I have the hand sanitizer I'm trying to keep everything is getting there's just a cockroach crawling across in front of my eyes. I thought oh my god, what am I doing? But having said that, yeah, exactly. You know that they they survive like, I don't know, I think we get really scared that they're not going to survive without us. And then when they do you go. Oh, actually, this is great. What else can I do now? Let's meet Well, I did anyway. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Sean. Stone, opposing forces. And predictable unknown. Is you the sound? Man, I'll see you on Monday. Was it important to you that you got back to your pre I want to say you pray baby life, because it's never the same, but holding the things that are important to you. You're performing you're singing? Was that like, the top of the list? This is me. I'm going to get back to this as soon as I can. Yeah, very much. I'm, you know, I'm a relatively old mum, as they you know, as they go. So, I was 39 when I had the Oh 42 When When I had Hendrix, and one of the reasons that I hadn't started a family any earlier was that I was the bandleader like I, and the dynamic I think in the band because Felix, the musical director, and I was kind of all the admin bandleader side of things, we were very much Mom and Pop, you know, in kind of the structure of whoever we worked with. So we'd work with basically like five to seven piece bands. And for the most part, like, I felt like those people were my kids, you know, kind of dealing with the feelings and drama and scheduling and making sure everybody had clean clothes and you know, that kind of thing. Because also too, when you're traveling that as a whole other aspect of you know, there are a whole other host of issues that come up where you're kind of like living with people and they're living away from home and all of this so sometimes it was a lot to handle and I thought there's no way I could have a real baby that I need to take care of where this band is my baby, you know, and I also for myself, I If I didn't want to not be able to do everything that I was doing, and, and I knew having a baby would change my life, and I knew that there would be compromises that had to be made, and I was just not in any way ready for that. So, for that reason, too, it was really important to me to perform the whole time I was pregnant, you know, kind of up until the bitter end, it was like, I'm still, I'm still doing everything that I could do, you know, with the exception of bending to plug in cables, to a point where I just cannot get down there. I and so then after baby, it was like, Yeah, I'm back, I'm back. Nothing has changed, you know, of course, everything has changed. But that I really kind of had like a death grip, I think on that element of my identity. And that is, the thing that I think I struggle with most really, is I still get really frustrated that I'm not able to do all the things that I used to be able to do, there was a moment where I was thinking maybe that I would have to even give all this up just because of so unhappy with how that all had gone, it kind of coincided with just sort of what happened in the market here in Dubai, you know, for such a long time, Felix and I had been leading a band. And then some of the people we worked with, left the band because they wanted to move on. And also just in the market, the budgets just got a lot smaller. So all of a sudden, there weren't gigs for five or six people, it was no Oh, to Navy, we can stretch to three. And so I was left feeling. And I know it's an all makes sense, but you know, really feeling that I took my hands like off the crank to have a baby. And it all fell apart. Just like I knew it would, you know, and and it was. And so I felt like a lot of that was my fault. Like, we would have still had van and we would have still had gigs, we would have still been just as like, busy and happy had I not done this, you know. And so that took me a while to get over and to sort of you know, it's not all about me. Like there were also other factors at work just like the economy, that's not all my fault. Yeah, yeah, how you would feel like that, yeah, it's very high. And it's having to kind of work my head around to, to appreciate and, and adapted to what we do now. So. So that was a thing kind of as things shrunk, you know, we sort of went six, five, all the way down to it just being feeling SCI. And and then the gigs changed, you know, and COVID was a big part of that, too, that we've, you know, we were lucky enough for most of the last two and a half years to actually have that live entertainment has been allowed, there was about 10 months where it was, you know, kind of band completely. But because Felix and I were now a small unit, we were more affordable. And because we also moved away from playing the pop music, the B student big band. And instead, we were doing these, like, Jazzy, you know, covers but still have pop music. We found that there were a lot of and also to one of the rules that they only brought back fairly recently is that there was no dancing allowed anymore, because they didn't want people kind of like being close together mingling. So restaurants were allowed and restaurants could have music with the tables had to have social distancing, you know, and all of that. But then actually, we found ourselves really well positioned because we could just set up husband and wife like in a little corner and play these songs that would still have people sort of dancing in their seat, you know, by not getting up it was all at a quieter value. It was actually really popular, you know, and the other things that came with being in a restaurant like gigs that start at 730 I want to be in bed before midnight. Definitely. Certainly, because you know, I have to get up at six o'clock in the morning. No, and there's none of that, you know, slip until all hours so. So I've worked my way around to really appreciate it but it mentally it's there are times there has been a really hard slog you know, and it's probably been about three years of lots of talking to myself and re The assessing if I'm happy with where things are and where they're going, yeah. Well, I mean, it's not to say that there were, you know, not moments of serious self doubt. And, and us really questioning things, you know, even even at the very beginning of COVID, where they were closing the airports, right, you know, and, and gosh, our prime minister on TV, say Canadians come home, that was exactly what he said. So, of course, our parents are like, get on a plane and come and, and, you know, and we're just going well, do we, though, but we have we live here, you know what I mean, you have an apartment full of stuff. It's not just, it's not like we're on a holiday, you know. So that was a hard decision to sit tight and say, Okay, we're going to stay here. And staying in a place where, you know, there's no, kind of like social safety net for foreigners here. So there's no employment insurance, there's no child, like, kind of welfare thinks that you're on your own. So we had to just try to, you know, tighten our belts manage our savings to make them last as long as they, as they could, you know, borrow money when we had to, to get through it. And of course, the whole time, you're thinking like, is this it? Is this just the end? Because that was one of the things that was so hard about COVID to it was, maybe this is the end forever? Have in person performances, like the repairs were like, is this? Is it just all gone now? And if so, what are we hanging on for like, then we need to be pivoting and learning to be accountants, like, this is what has to happen. And so if they're, there have had so many long periods of just not knowing what the hell we're doing and what the hell's going on. Now, of course, in hindsight, like we see, okay, no, we were, we we made the right call to is to stick it out. And stay here, I think, actually, one of the big factors that, you know, factored into a stain was that I was pregnant. Because it was also I don't have a doctor in Canada, you know, my doctor is here, the quality of care is, is excellent here, and it was still really accessible, you know, whereas in Canada, they kind of like, locked everything down. And my sister was pregnant at the same time. So we really, so I have a nephew who's only three months older than Hendrix. So we really were kind of, you know, compare and contrast, like through the whole thing. And she was having tele health visits, and I'm like, no, no, I still go in for my, you know, twice a month ultrasound. Like, I'm still allowed to do that. So you know, I think that live streaming was really great to show us that we have a another way of, of reaching people. But I feel like it's not over, I feel sort of that, like our deciding is not over, you know, we really feel like we're here. We're here for the immediate future. But also, I personally know that I'm left with a lot of anxiety and kind of, like a form of, you know, PTSD, almost just the stress of the insecurity of the last two years is, is something that I really struggled to shake, to, to feel secure. Again, in as secure as you ever feel when you're a musician. I mean, I've spent the last 16 years of life on contracts and having like, zero, real financial security, you know, as many artists, you know, that's our life. Right. But this has added a whole like other layer to it, which is kind of permanently stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And that's thing. It's so it's so unknown, because it's like, I know what you mean, like, it's winter, next gig winds, you know, in normal times, but then it's like, Will there ever be gigs? Like, it totally changes the whole way? That you think about the whole thing, so yeah, I can I can empathize with you there because that's, yeah, and that's thing. It's COVID Still ticking along like things are still happening. And yeah, we just we have no idea where it's going and what's going to happen and yeah, it's full on in it's been a really, it's been a crazy time to be alive. You know what I mean? Like it's it is one of those hopefully once in a lifetime occurrences, you know, like a war like, something like that, that this is is you know, the thing we'll talk to our grandkids about, basically. Yeah, and, and, um, yeah, I'm still not sure how we're the lasting changes, you know, that this This will make like, one of the things that I was sort of surprised at is how quickly kind of the online side of things really like online performances really dissipated once in person performances were a thing again. Which is great, because I mean, hey, we're like, that's our job is to be in person performers were in the room. But, and in a way, it's fantastic. Because it thinks that it shows me that there's nothing that can replace being in the room with the people making the music, you know, it's just, you can't put that on a record, you can, you know, put that on on a screen, it just you have to be there. So good for us. Because that means people still want to see us in person, but also to is kind of stressful, because it's like, well, then, is there ever really a plan B for for us? Or is it always because certainly when we were live streaming, we made a little bit of money, but it was, you know, dribs and drabs, it was not like enough to sustain us so. So that's kind of where I am now. It's just to feel that over the long term, not sure how much longer we'll be able to kind of get away with doing what we're doing, you know, because if ever to the market changes again, and we're now not so well positioned for what people want, then that's tough. So I mean, this is like a story of all you know, performance artists also sample if you lead with me, me, me love you you know, that I find it Oh, so hard to let go. Change my mind when you say in your sweet baby one of the topics I really like to talk to guests on the show is about mom guilt. And I put I put it in air quotes because I recorded an episode with an artist this morning who had to Google what it meant because she literally did not experience it didn't know what it was. And I thought that was awesome. That's the first person I've met that hasn't known. So I'm really that was awesome. So that just goes to show the broad range of experiences that we have with this thing. What's your thoughts? Oh my gosh, I'm the polar opposite of the poster child for Mom You're getting both ends of the spectrum today. Yeah, yeah, no, mom. Definitely. I mean, I have all kinds of, you know, anguish about things. You know, I have like, bandleader guilt and all this kind of things, too. So it's just another one that I add to my my collection. The mom guilt. Yeah. Where does it hurt? Oh, my gosh. It's, you know, I was listening to to yesterday, I was listening to the podcast you done with Ms. Coleman. And she was talking about it really for her seems to revolve around time. And I think that's, that's absolutely yet you know, feeling that that I'm not giving my boys enough time or feeling that I'm not giving them quality time. That one is, you know, certainly is trouble. I see. So I kind of the logistics of it. Right? You know that our gigs do finish even getting home at midnight, but you know, you're not to bed for 130 or whatever. So when someone comes because they've wet the bed and then the other ones crying the knees. So you know, I mean, there's lots of nights where we're still, you know, maybe up three or four times. So then starting the day at seven, it's like okay, well we've had like five broken hours of sleep, you know, and my husband and I share duties and he's up, you know, with as well. But still we both just find really, really tired in the mornings a lot and That's hard. So then I think I see too that with Hendrix, I don't spend the same time there's a lot more TV. A lot more TV. Do it would be like 12 minutes, one little episode, you know that we're trying to get off and we're working on colors and stuff to with Hendrix, I'm like, Dude, how do you not know any of your colors? Like how do you not know these animals? Right, because no one has taught us that that was the kind of thing with do that I would sit and I would do. And now with two of them, I'm just kind of like, oh, the TV's just gonna have to teach you something today, because I don't go to the realities. The reality but I feel guilty about it, you know, I feel guilty that I'm not kind of there for my second one, in the same way that I was for the, you know, for the first child. And, and it's, it's hard. When we get busy with work, you know, we're lucky to have maybe six or seven gigs a week, regularly, you know. So sometimes we'll only have one night off. And that's hard, where I'm giving them their bath and putting them to bed once a week. And just the feeling that like there's another woman who I love and trust, but somebody else does this all the time, who gives you nighttime cuddles. So those periods are hard, but they're also kind of necessary, sort of the reality here, like, in general, there are summer season, which is about five months long. workwise is quite quiet, you know, there's less tourists, a lot of the families that are here, if they can, they, they'll take their holiday, so they might be gone back to Australia or Canada or UK wherever for two, perhaps two months. So then they're not here eating in restaurants and going out. So we do have a lot less gigs in summer than we do in the over the winter period. And that's hard to the the feeling that we have to take all the work that we can get, you know, when it's offered. I don't find that we have a lot of balance, like either summer, and we're kind of, you know, to in our fingernails a bit going, Okay, hope we can we make it by the end of the month, or it's winter. And we're just like, you know, out every night kind of thing, just just working all the time not feeling dizzy the kids? And if so, and then I think it translates into other ways, right? You know, maybe there's too many trips to McDonald's or too many little presents, or little, you know, ice cream or whatever, because it's like, my, I feel like I don't see you enough. So I just want to just want to treat you. And there are other options. You know, like here in Dubai, there's quite a nanny culture, they don't really do babysitters, and of course, because all of us, like kind of the entire population are away from our families, right? You know, like, everyone has come from all over the world to work here. So you don't have sisters and aunts and uncles and brothers who can watch the kids, you know, so you have a nanny, and they're with you, all the time. And for many people, it's not our situation, but many people have many live with them that and we often have people saying that, but if you had your nanny live with you, she would get up in the morning with the kids and you know, hey, we think about it, but also to the Trade Office, then then I do lose that part, I do lose that access to my, my kids. And you know, there's a part of me, which feels like, if certainly if we had kids in Canada, we'd be doing it all on our own, you know, we would be up and we would be tired. And we would be just like everybody else, you know, and so trying to still may have that kind of Canadian life, but at the same time, the reality is like, I get to bed at two o'clock in the morning when I'm tired when I wake up at 630 So there's no escaping. Yeah, but that's the thing that I like. I haven't heard you say once in this, even though there's always stuff I mean, obviously thinking about, you know, the how the market is gonna go but you're not saying that I don't want to do this anymore. Because of, you know, the sacrifices, the compromises that I might be making with my children. You know what I mean? Like it's, this is what is important to you at the end of the day, you know, this is this is you This is in in your heart and soul and yeah, I hope I'm getting Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I quite recently have asked myself, you know, if this is if this is right for if this is right for me, if this is right for us, and it's sort of that feeling of a lack of balance, you know, I would like to feel more balanced and and I mean, also to that logistically, the reality of it is just financially, it makes more sense for the two of us to be going out and gigging. And for us to then hire a nanny than for me to stay home. But that's not the whole story, too. When I see things like, Oh, my two year old doesn't know his car, you know? And I'm like, well, maybe I need to be here, and be teaching him those things. And, and is that what's right for us now? And also to in the sense that, you know, we think someday we'll move back to Canada, probably, you know, in the next five years. And we know, we can't do this, when we're there. So there's also that to have, do we need to be putting in place, whatever kind of work, things need to happen, you know, does it obviously involve some kind of retraining or something? And is that what I should be spending my time doing now? So that we're kind of ready for the next step. But, you know, as he said, it's kind of the, it has always pulled me back in like, I can't imagine not putting on the makeup and doing the hair and going out and, and making music with Felix, you know, it's the the reason that we're that we're together. You know, he'll he'll occasionally have other gigs with other people. And as much as I love it, and I'm happy for him. And he needs more variety than I do. Like, I'm like, No, I'm happy to just work with you to know exactly what I'm doing to have someone who I rely on 100% I don't need any kind of instability. In my life. I'm good. I got it. Whereas he'll go, he's happy to jam and happy to take on new projects and learn new things like No, no, I don't have any of that desire. But when he does things, I'm happy for him. But also there's part of me that, like, it really doesn't like that, you know, that he's gone off and is having a life without? Yeah, I mean, we literally in 16 years, like we pretty much, you know, kind of spent every minute together for that time. So yeah, it's if for better, it's far better for us. You know, it really it really is. No longer gonna backtrack, just exam that you chose wrong. Now you go back and get over it Yeah, was gonna ask you what you've got coming out. But I know, I've I don't know how to ask that. Because you've got gigs all the time, haven't you? Like? Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, because I had a look at your page of all your shows. It's like, oh, my gosh, you like that. And then, so like, it's just, it just flows on and on and on. Like you said, you have this portion of the year where it's full on full on full on, and then it's the little break time. So yeah, you just sort of ride the waves. And, yeah, it's like, you know, we describe it as a marathon out here. Right? You know, because it doesn't ever really stop. And which is great. Is you know, as you said, like it does have high season and low season to it. So, for us coming up we're getting into this season probably won't start really full on until October. Which is okay, because Theo is starting school in September. So he's never been to nursery, he was kind of about to go to nursery and then it was COVID. So then he stayed home for that two years with us. Which is a whole other like, Mom, thing my sister laughs at me, she's really okay with sending her eldest to school and I just choked all the time. I'm like, buying, you know, glue sticks and googly eyes, like crying in the grocery store. filling his school list. I, you know, he needs a uniform and I'm kind of dreading going to the store. I just don't I can't like deal with seeing him in that little uniform for the first time. So yeah. So I think actually, it'll be okay that he, you know, we'll start that and we're not super busy yet. So we'll have time to kind of transition him into that and transition us because he has to get up even earlier for us to drive him to school. You know, Oh, it's so I'm nervous about it. Because I think like, already, I'm tired. And already, it's not amazing for me, you know? How is that going to be when now we have to be up even earlier five days a week. And then when I have more gigs, how's it all gonna work? So I'm, I am really nervous about this fall season, coming in and figuring that we will just have to figure it out, as you know, as it goes along. But for us, musically, we have just started our first gig in like, four years with a full band. So that's been exciting for us to actually have, you know, bass, drums and keys again, because most of the time, and although we say most of the time as a duo, Felix is the band. So he is a guitarist, but he does all the drum programming, we work the drum machine that he plays Live, and then he does bass loops and guitar loops on top of that, and then he's doing back vocals, and he's saying the vocals, I'm just singing. I'm playing a little bit tambourine here and there. And then doing all though, like, admin stuff on whatever social media time. Yes, I do. That's all me. But, but so to have a full band is musically is really exciting again, logistically is difficult. It's kind of like, oh, yeah, and people's scheduling and issues and all this. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so it's great that we're working on that working in a new venue to so getting adjusted to, what did they want? What does the audience want? What do we think is going to work? We've just been asked to perhaps put together a gypsy jazz trio, which would be new for us, we do a little bit of gypsy jazz, but not like full on things. So trying to see if that's something that we can that we can manage. And aside from that, yeah, just mostly have work either as a duo or as a trio. We do have a few different keyboard players that we that we work with. And yeah, most of most of our gigs are restaurant or kind of restaurant lounge, this new full band one is the first one that we seen a long time where people really there's sort of like a dance floor space for them, you know. So that too, has meant Okay, well, we kind of need to rework and bring back in some of that repertoire that we haven't really bothered with for last few years because they weren't allowed to. Yeah. Yeah, and it'll just lead up by Christmas. Usually our week of Christmas is absolutely nuts been rammed, which is I just find crazy challenging. It's with two kids. So also trying to find time to steal like, create the magic of Christmas and, and it's Theo's birthday, he's a Christmas baby. So he's also kind of like finding a way to make him also birthday, maybe birthday party and, and playing, you know, Christmas Eve, usually we'll do two gigs. And Christmas day, we'll do two gigs. And every night of the week and everything. So it is, it's a tough, it's a tough time of year for me. I mean, you want to talk mom gills is kind of astronomical and have our nanny, you know, reading the Christmas story, and I really struggled with that this last year, you know, that we, we move Christmas as we need to, you know, like we celebrated on the day that we don't have to get up and go to a gig. So we did it on the 26th this year, but that still meant that on Christmas night, like she's putting out cookies for Santa and getting them in their pajamas. And I was just kind of all over the place that night. Like it was to the point where Felix even said to me, he said, you know, do we cancel that gig like you're this upset, you know, in the weeks leading up to it that you're not that you're not going to be able to be there and you know, it's a tough call right like these well paid holiday gigs you know, they're not at our usual rate. They're better than the usual rate and, and having to and maybe it'll be different every year. You know, maybe I won't make the same choice this year as to am I okay with her just sending photos of look, they're in their Christmas jammies. I'm sort of toggling between sets and then going okay, here we go, you know, celebrating Christmas with other people who are there with their families also too, which is just like that. You know, really hard on my heart and, and I, you know, I think maybe in later years it if we're still kicking around and doing this, it will be the kind of thing where maybe they can come and be with us, you know, on the on those occasions just be at those games. But right now there's just so little that, you know, and their bedtime is still early and all of that. So it's, it's, I know that it's better for them to be at home where they're well taken care of and she's doing as much of the tradition is as I have, like, left instructions were hard to do. But, but it's hard like Felix and I both are moms or elementary school teachers. So they had summers off, they had two weeks off at Christmas. So we both kind of have these very strong like holiday traditions of the families always did this and that and Christmas Eve was this kind of celebrating and then Christmas Day was that kind of celebrating. And for us we're just absent, you know, on those times. So find hope Yeah, find the holidays hard. But you know, in the other sense like we're still financially recovering from COVID so it's work work work, work, work work, work much as we can Yeah, you just sort of do what you can at the time that you make the decisions as you go and like you said next year you might feel different and then a year after you might feel different so it's like Yeah, going with what you need at the time. Yeah. And trying not to feel guilty I really love talking to you today. It's it's such a routine energy and I like have you got videos on YouTube where we can watch you perform, I want to watch you perform like your vibe is so welcoming and energizing is like awesome to have a say on stage. You know what I mean? What if you do want to see the videos with feel of which honestly, I swear there's like at full length shows there but they're on our Facebook page. So you can feel free to like scroll through the years. Seriously, just check the last five minutes because that's the start. You can skip ahead. It's fine. We're used to everyone else like tuning out and then coming back five minutes to the hour. I'm University thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum now tomorrow we live saw so simple if you lead with me love you used to be the one always man trying struggling still good seem so sad with you maybe. Monroe I love to also sample if you lead with me love me for me design but love you You know that I find it oh so hard to let go change when you say in your sweet baby start let's let them roll while we while we live in today in some some so simple if you learn to be with me they're gonna love you ever decide that you're gonna love you

Georgia Fields Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep15 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Georgia Fields is a singer, songwriter, producer and arranger from Melbourne Vic, and a mum of 2. She has been recording and releasing music as an independent artist for over 10 years. In 2010 Georgia recorded her debut self-titled album. Georgia Fields was awarded Album of the Week for ABC Radio National and Beat Magazine, and saw her perform on national television for SBS’ RocKwiz. Since then she has released Astral Debris in 2016 and Afloat, Adrift in 2017 - an EP captured live with The Andromeda String Quartet and She currently working on her next album Hiraeth, due for release 2022. She has also founded and launched The Mother Lode - a community to support and connect working mums in the Australian music industry. In this episode we chat about experiencing and dealing with 'imposter syndrome', the challenge of returning to performing after taking a maternity break, ageism in the music industry, THAT Triple J tweet and our mutual love for The Beatles. **This episode contains discussions around post natal depression and anxiety** Connect with Georgia here - https://www.georgiafields.com/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Georgia's music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Giorgio fiends. Giorgio is a singer songwriter and arranger from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two children. George has been recording and releasing music as an independent artist for over 10 years. In 2010, Georgia recorded her debut self titled album, her album, Georgia Fields was awarded album of the week for ABC Radio, national and beat magazine, and it saw her perform on national television on an episode of SPSS TV show rock quiz. Since then, she has released astral Daybreak in 2016, and afloat adrift in 2017, and AP captured live with the Andromeda String Quartet. George is currently working on her next album, entitled heroes, due for release in 2022. Amongst all this, Georgia has also founded and launched the motherlode, a community to support and connect working mums in the Australian music industry. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. Love to welcome you along today, Georgia. Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast. And thank you. Great to have you here. Thanks for having me. So I know a little bit about you. I've been listening to your music for a little while. But can you share what you do? How you got into it? And all that kind of stuff? Sure. Well, I'm, I'm a singer, songwriter, I guess. That's my main bag. And I started, I started writing songs when I was a kid. But it took me a long time to have the guts to really pursue it professionally. So I started playing and really giving it a go when I was about 25. I think. So that was writing songs and performing under my own name, Georgia fields. And so now I'm, of course 26. No, I'm going to be 78 next week, so I've been doing it a little while now. I also write for strings from time to time, either for myself or for other artists, which is a lot of fun doing string arranging. Yeah, that's in terms of what kind of music I do. I tend to just say pop music because I feel like that kind of covers a lot of bases but pops a wider genre. So delving deeper into that, I guess. I tend to have a play with a band, as I said, sometimes with strings, so more of an indie pop, modern folk type situation. I guess that sums me up. Yeah. So when you said you used to write when you were younger? Did you ever do anything with it, then? Did you ever sing it like concerts or perform you're performing music as a child? I didn't do. I didn't kind of work as a child thing. I did a few recording sessions for ads as a kid. My uncle worked in that world. So occasionally, they'd need some singers. That sounded young or were kids. So I had done a little bit of that. Before I was familiar with studios. My uncle had both of my uncles had studios and and my family from the music world as well. So it was just something that was kind of modeled to me I didn't perform really as a kid. Thankfully, because I think that is a whole other can of worms. Yeah, yeah, that's how experiences Yeah, for sure. So why did it take you till you are 24 to start sharing your music? I think I just thought I had to be perfect to get started. Probably do Just want to examine that now like, probably I heard someone say, the problem was, I think it was like probably read it on Instagram on an inspirational quote, but it was something like we compare our, our work in progress with other people's finished outputs, you know, like, big I was just looking at looking at the artist side mired and going, Oh, well, what I'm doing here, what I'm working on isn't isn't as good as that. Whereas, you know, you're kind of comparing your own bedroom, works in progress with fully finished fully supported artists that are signed to Sony and to have massive, you know, I think there's probably a bit of naivety and a bit of impostor syndrome. But when I was I was, I went overseas, I went around around the world, when back when you could do that. And I was working in London, and I remember someone I've been working with. No, thank you, my husband just brought in a little snack for me. Thank you. What a sweetheart. I was I was I was living. I was living in London, I was working in London, and one of the directors of the firm I was working at, and I was just doing administration forgot my name. And I've been working with them for setting up their breakfast meeting for a while, like a while now. And they called me sweetie. And I was like, he doesn't know my name. And it just was this moment of feeling really disrespected and feeling like I wasn't where I wanted to be. And I just thought I have to I just have to get back home to Melbourne and just get making music. So that was kind of what really spurred me on, I think, yeah, it was that that moment that sort of brought everything into clarity, I suppose. And you Right, right. None of this stuff. That's right. That's right. Yeah. You. you've recorded a few albums as I listened to you on Spotify for a while that I did a bit of research. Thanks. Tell us about your albums that you've recorded. You said you've composed for strings. I think that's what in my mind anyway, makes your stuff so different. And so beautiful that you combine your your vocals, it's like the strings aren't just there to fill in. Underneath the accompaniment, they actually have a special place. Thank you. That's a really lovely interpretation of it. And I studied cello as a kid at school, I was lucky to go to a school that had a strings program. And we had a music program and you could choose an instrument and I chose cello actually initially chose double bass, but they didn't have enough school bases for me to borrow. So I've got I've got the cello which from memory my dad was was happy about. But I was I had terrible cello. And I didn't practice enough and it just wasn't really my instrument. So I never really able to be when I played it for five years, wasn't really able to get a beautiful sound out of it. So I ended up quitting cello in high school just to focus on on singing. But it's something it's instrument that I love. I love it so much that I decided not to play it anymore because it's so terrible. And out of respect for the insurance pure respect for cello. I'm not going to do it to any more cello. But I think having that experience of knowing what it can do and what it could sound like I was able to bring that to my my songwriting. I remember my cello teacher when I was in high school, I said to her, I really want to like plug Rotella in and play like play it, like maybe put it through an app and then I could sing over the top of it and bless a shoe I think she must have been must be a very classically trained cellist and she played with the msoa. And she just kind of looked at me and was like, okay, and I think that idea was quite foreign to her. But also She's probably just thinking you could start by playing some scales and doing a practice that I have given to you that you haven't done. Anyway, I digress. Yeah, I love working with strings because I feel there's just so it's such an emotional instrument and they're very versatile. So I've I've always had strings in my releases. My first album was very kind of was very foci and orchestral kind of based. I had an old friend who I met in high school actually, who's an incredible cellist. She's now a doctor of cello and she He was really mentored me when I started writing for strings. That's a treaty. Her name is Judas Haman if Casio in case any listeners will look that up, I wanted, you know, how do you write this out. And so she kind of got me started on it and got me hooked on it. Yeah, and then a little while ago, I made a record with a quartet that I work with a lot the Andromeda String Quartet, which was really fun, because we just did it live in the studio. So it was just just string quartet and voice. Before we talk about your children, I want to talk about the amazing work that you're doing with the mother lode, the website and the Instagram. And I just commend you so much. Can you just share with the listeners about the mother lode? How it came about? You know what compelled you to create the concept? First, I want to say thanks for your kind words about it. It's relatively new project. And it's funny when I connect with other mums through this project. In other words, it's always astounding to me when they say oh, we're you know, we're really enjoying it. Oh, this is this is a really great initiative because I think oh, gosh, I have had huge impostor syndrome about launching it. Yeah, who am I? Who am I to create this space for moms? You know, what have I done? How am I you know, this, you know, Cami farm Georgia, get back in your box, but I'm glad I started it. Yeah, so motherlode is it's an online community that basically aims to support independent musicians who are mothers in their music making, and their mothering, I guess, acknowledging that there are two enormous jobs in your life roles, or, you know, not labels, but they're parts of who you are. And they're really their full time. Part like you don't clock off being an artist, you don't clock off being a mom, they're just that that's part of who you are as a person. And support is needed for boats, I guess it was, I've been thinking about it for a while. I've been thinking about, you know, I just want to get together with my as a musician, friends, and just have a big debrief on so how are you doing this? And are you putting childcare in the grant budget? And how did you get a How did you, you know, do this and how do we do that. But it was when, really, in the pandemic, in in 2020, that I thought, this is getting ridiculous, this is getting very challenging. And, you know, we see it saw that a lot of job losses, you know, across across all jobs have, we've seen that it's women bearing the brunt of that. And people have said, it's likely because they're the ones that were already working part time was a big, they've had to stop working so they can homeschool their kids. We know that the music industry has been in crisis from the pandemic. So I guess just wanting to support mothers in the music industry to stay active, stay supported to keep creating work, because if we lose those voices, we're going to lose, you know, those stories, we're going to lose that, that perspective that I think is really important. And it's perspectives that I seek out now. Yeah, it is a community. It's, it's bringing people together, it's sharing ideas, and just giving people the opportunity to share information that is going to help others you know, it builds on itself. And yeah, it's wonderful. I hope it builds on itself. I feel like we're really in early days, we've got the Instagram channel, which is at Find the mother lode and then the website which I'm building up slowly. I guess because it's just as you would know, it's it's just me behind the scenes at night when the kids are in bed furiously on my laptop, trying to you know, work and get things done, but um, I've got a lot of dreams for the project and what it could mean. But yeah, we just got to start small, don't we? It's always got to start somewhere, but the intention is there and I'm so glad that you put aside your imposter syndrome that you named it. I haven't put it aside I'm just I'm just, you know, just keeping it quiet for the time being No, thank you. I am trying to put it aside. Yeah. trees and all these gravel magic so you mentioned your kids then tell us about your family. Yeah, I'm a mum to two kids. We live in Melbourne with my husband and my daughter, Kendra, who is six and a half. And my son Marlon, who is two and a half, and we're in lockdown. 6 million points. Whatever it is, I've lost count. But yeah, we live in, in the burbs here in Melbourne, and yeah, my husband's also a musician. So we're rich. We have a lot of keyboards, we have a lot of keyboards. We don't, you know, don't have a TV. But we have a piano. So we've got our priorities, you know, order or not order. Yeah, that That basically sums up that's us. Yeah. So you met your husband? Through your music, like through performing through meeting? Yes, yeah, our bands were singing our guest spot. At a night where his band was playing. So we did a collaboration together. And then we did a live family collaboration. We'll see. With with a bit of, you know, getting to know each other in between? Yeah. Oh, do you find that because he has an insight into music, he can empathize with the space and the time that you need, and when you need it, because he's got that background in music. Definitely. There's definitely an understanding of what the creative process is and what it feels like to be a creative person, but there's also a lot of competition, because we both want that space. And there's children in the family that require our care and attention all the time, because we're doing home learning. So we have very little respite at the moment. So I'd say that, that there's the positive of Yeah, you know, he gets it. But also, we both kind of scrounging for that time, which is a challenge, I think, with families, particularly families where there's two creative people. Yeah. So how I mean, taking out the challenge right now of being in lockdown, how would you generally manage your time and then with the children? With it's changed over time. So when we when it depends really on what the teaching arrangements are. He He's teaching at the moment, I was teaching before I took maternity leave. So generally, we just kind of try and split whatever spare days were left in the week, where we weren't teaching. But this, it's been more challenging as I wasn't really able to return from maternity leave to teaching work. Because that was when the pandemic really started. So that means that he's doing the majority of the teaching work. So in general, we try to split the time when the one when we're not teaching, but at the moment, he's working essentially full time. So we both are just working in the evenings on our creative projects if and when and how we want to do that, which is pretty tiring, but yeah, absolutely. And then yeah, you have the nights when the kids are awake, and then you're up with the children and then you've got a front up the next day again, it's just Oh, yeah. Your work to you know, work on something till 1230 At night, one o'clock, and then your toddler wakes at three, and then you've got to be up at 630 for whatever. Yeah, I'm pretty shocking. I was sleeping but um, but yeah, it's challenging, but you know, we love it. And that is something that I've that I struggle with is getting that balance because and I was talking to my husband about this in the kitchen the other day, like, I'm a much happier person when I'm when I'm got when I've got things on the go when I'm working on motherlode when I'm trying to put a single out or doing some recording, whatever it is, I'm much happier. But I've got to do that, you know, in the night and then I'm freaking exhausted and I'm not as happy as it's like how do you know just kind of do it, I guess. Week by week. Yeah, you can then go here the next week. I don't know if anyone's got an answer, please. Please email in. Yeah, send me a message. But you're going to take care of ourselves too. I mean, yeah. I don't know. I don't know the answer. It's a hard one isn't it? I've really noticed since because I had I was diagnosed with postnatal depression and anxiety after my son was born. He wasn't a great sleeper. Bless him. But now I've really noticed that and I feel like I've I've received a lot of support for that and I'm kind of coming coming through that. But I do notice now when I haven't had enough sleep, like you know, if I if I pull an all nighter to get some work done that I want to do and then my kids waking and then the next day I'm like, Well, I actually I really noticed that my anxiety is really high. So yeah, it's just it is a funny dance. How do you I've got to I have to take care of that because I don't want it to kind of get away from me again. Yeah, for sure. But I don't want to give up making music so but that I think that is a very that's something that's very specific to indie musicians who perhaps are supporting their creative practice with another job as opposed to musicians who are you know, their songwriting and they're performing pays their wage because they they're not you know, having to work through the night. I don't know. I don't know I've never been one of those so yeah. So hard to change. Of all the fates. I've begged to be with you you you I read that you're a big Beatles fan. Yeah, she's awesome. Because I love the Beatles so much the same way you can see their legs. I can Yes, I can. I don't know if I'm as big a fan as my son is now he is mad for it. That's wonderful. If I say to him, Are you are you retired boy or, you know, let me give you a cuddle of my little boys. I'm not a boy. I'm Ringo. I'm mummy Ringo. And he's Marlon Ringo. He's Yes. Please support the Beatles fan here. Beatles fan for sure. What's your favorite album? Oh, that's a good question. It used to be I mean, it was it was such a purpose for a long time, but I feel like I kind of almost burnt myself out from it because it was like my favorite you know from from being a kid. Revolver is just like this really amazing. Almost like a coming of age. I can hear Sergeant Pepper's just around the corner. But you know all that kind of the close harmony. Boy group stuff is still really in there too. I find that really fascinating. Record, but they're all good. I mean, Revolver is my favorite. I tossed up for a long time between that and the White Album. But I went, I love revolver so much. I just love. Yeah, it's just building up. It's just getting like it's starting to wind up to that the psychedelic crazy. Love has a high watermark for guitar sounds, isn't it? Like oh, yeah, I love how they just did whatever they wanted. Like they just they had songs with the tempos changed. And then they had like, the three songs joined together and they just did literally anything they want to. It's like, God, you guys, like 10 years, it was only 10 years, but I know just blows too short amount of time. But I feel as though it would have been it. Yeah, that'd be the talent, the talent, the individual talents, you know, we're standing together sum of their parts situation where you know, there's a special kind of magic, having them all working together but also that imagine just being able to go into into the studio, like just imagine just just going in and not being like watching the clock going shit. How am I gonna pay for this or like we've you know, we've got to get this done because, you know, I've got to make sure I get this many streams or I don't know, just imagine going in and being like, Oh, what am You can do today like that massive amount of freedom and people would have had that confidence in you like none of the record companies would have been worried about what was coming next like they would have just, you know, just let them go and see what they do. Yeah, yeah. Unreal just unreal. You favorite they don't have to ask you for everything. Well, of course Paul for a long time in fact, forever but I feel a really big coming around to George Moore he's his songs kind of used to scare me as a child had this quite Yes. It's kind of not aggressive. But there's something about his voice it's it's almost spooky. It's hit some of his some of his songs. He's just broke me a bit as a kid. But um, but yeah, coming around to George but um, always really been a fan of the way. Paul approaches melody and any songwriting? Yeah. I'm definitely more Paul than I am. John. John. John scares me a bit in his, I think, because I, before I knew much about their lifestyles and their behaviors, I really liked John's music. And then I sort of got turned off a bit when I discovered like, I don't know if that things were true or her stories. Yeah, and it's misogyny sort of attitudes and stuff. And I thought, I'm just gonna stick with post rock and roll that's feels better. I really struggled to listen to run for your life. Oh, yeah. I've listened to the lyrics of it. And what was the other one I was listening to? Which I love no reply, which is from an older one record I can't remember which one so from please please wear his like, I saw you walk in because I've seen like basically it's just he's a stock is a stock it doesn't matter if there's a stock it's not get the message. She's not into you. Just turn the phone. back. Oh, that reminds me. I was just thinking then when you said to me, there's no time. Soon, and it's like, basically do it my way. You gotta see my way. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like do it my way because you're always wrong. And if you do it my way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. When you start thinking about in that way, like, if it creeps like anyway, I sometimes wonder what it would be like to go if you were sent back in time. And you could you could deliver all the songs, but they were fresh. I don't know if I mean, those songs are incredible songs. But they vary over time. And I don't know if you if you transported them to now, would they be successful? I pray I don't I think they actually because they defined the year that they were in because that's groundbreaking in the time that they're in. But yeah, you take them out and put them in today. And you just go What's that? Like? You wouldn't make it wouldn't might not be hit as hard I don't know. 911 Yep, well that's probably a good thing. leaving tomorrow tomorrow never know yeah with my guests, I love talking about two big the two big things I love talking about mum guilt and identity. So we've gone to mum guilt rock fest. How do you feel about I put it in the air quotes the old mum guilt? Because I feel like it's a label that's been created by someone else. But those feelings of that that guilt had had the sort of process that even before I answer that that that is a really interesting idea of what could we call it instead of mum guilt, because it is a thing that is natural. When you care about something, you want to make sure you're doing that job well. How can we re label that? You know, is it is it a pool or is it being drawn back to I definitely I definitely have mom guilt tend to have more mom guilt when I leave. Like if I have to leave the house to do work. Particularly if I go away on tour which I haven't done heaps of I did more of that when tender was little but you know pandemic times haven't really had the chance to abandon my son and hit the road yet. Yeah, it's a funny one. I mean, it's sometimes it never really, never really seems to have a rhyme or reason for me. You know, there'll be times when I can be stand quite firm in my commitment to maintain creative practice and a career and, and think, oh, you know, this is fine. And that's got him and this is great for him, it's great for them and not going to worry about this. And then there's other times, you know, I shouldn't have spent so long at the milk bar, you know, it doesn't seem to have a rhyme or reason for me, but definitely experience it. Yeah. Absolutely. And, yes, I like that, what you're saying about calling it something else, because I feel like almost like social media has created that tear, like a hashtag monkey, like, it's a throwaway sort of comment for others, but it's, it doesn't serve moms well to be labeled in that way. And sometimes, is it guilt? Or sometimes is it just actually, you know, us questioning? Is it time to bring the the is it the ledger back to towards more towards family? Or, you know, like, I think it is okay to question your involvement in in any kind of, you know, activity or, or passion, it's okay to say, Oh, am I spending too much time at work? Or am I? Or my you know, that that's okay. But whether you necessarily want to feel guilty about it? I don't know. And I guess, thinking about it now, like I haven't really thought really investigated this. And I'm glad you're asking me to but just for my own self, but I suppose it requires you two approach. I guess it's worth acknowledging that you're not going to approach parenting with a clean slate, like we all bring the wounds from our own childhood, and the wounds from the way we were parented to our own parenting. So that's something I guess that I, I find myself second guessing myself a bit on you know, do I have a reason to feel guilty about this? Or is it? Is it okay? Hmm. So I think, yeah, it's a challenging one, because no one's going to approach it. Yet, with a clean slate, everyone's going to bring their own baggage to parenting and, and that's going to inform how guilty you might be, or might feel. It's funny, there's, my friends become a mother recently, she's got a son who's nine must be nearly 10 months now maybe. And we went on tour together, we did a really big tour together when my daughter was maybe two, three. And like, that was the first time I left her and I had a lot of guilt about leaving her about being far away. And a lot of that was, I can also I could sense that there was a lot of baggage from my own childhood as well. But she was always very active about saying, you know, you are setting a great example for her, you are showing her that you there are things that in your life that you care about, you're showing her you're being entrepreneurship and you know, so she's really in my ear about that. So I feel lucky to have a friend and a musician and another like her to really help keep that in check. And if anyone is interested, her name is fear pH ia i think Instagram handle is listened to fear she's an amazing artist. So she's worth checking out and if she's your friend like she's my friend, she would tell you enjoy the music making take that time off go on to do it. So then leading into that the concept of identity that and I'm going to put this in air quotes again, because whenever I say I know it's not true. It's important to us for you to be more than just a mum and I know that's not right, because we're never just a mum, but I think you sort of touched on it earlier. When you say you don't clock off from being a mom, you don't clock off from being a musician, or an artist. How do you sort of retain your identity of, you know, you're still GA, you happen to have kids, but you've got all these other aspects of your life that are important as well. Make sense? Isn't it? It's an interesting question. I don't know if your other guests say this, but it's really interesting to have somebody asking these specific questions because often, like, I personally wouldn't think about this, in such specifically personal terms, until someone asked me a question like this, I thank you for the opportunity to, you know, do therapy. Podcast, when, when my daughter was born, I had work when I fell pregnant, I had work coming up, I had been booked to write a film school. And that started work on my second album. So I was just like, I'm just gonna keep doing like, I'm gonna start, I'm just gonna keep doing these things. And so I had these things booked in, I had to do them. Oh, my God, it was quite stressful at times, because I was frightened of letting people down. I didn't realize how sleep deprived I was going to be. So there was like, it was very challenging. But because I had the work booked in, it had to happen. Contrasting that, to the experience with my son, which is when I thought, Okay, I'm just gonna take some time off, I'm not going to book anything in. I'm not going to stress myself out, like I did the other time when I had all those commitments, so I'm just going to have nothing in the future. And then, you know, when he's one or something, I'll just start on some things. But COVID said, No, you won't. So that was interesting. Because I approach motherhood with having no, no creative projects, really happenings and no identity as, as a being a musician in that way, and it was very shocking was very challenging. To consider that those parts of myself could be gone, they might not come back. The opportunities might not be there, you know, those relationships might be lost. When you put time, why don't you go back to book a gig and that person is not there anymore? They knew you and the other person's like, oh, who are you? And how many people can you bring to the venue? And you have to go through the whole thing of selling yourself? Again, that sort of thing? Which really, yeah, I think it is really important to there's nothing wrong with being a full time mother who doesn't work outside the house. And, and is, is totally, um, enthused. And just fulfilled by that role. If you wanted to be executive, or, you know, an artist, or whatever it is, if you want to do something outside of that, it's okay to like, I think it's really important to, like, still live life on your own terms, I guess. Not feel like you have to say no to things. Because fathers aren't saying no to things. Let me tell you. Yep. Sorry, but it's true. It's true. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, if you want to say no, if you think oh, I'm just gonna be too tired. And I prefer to just spend the time with my kids then great. But you should be free to make those decisions as much as you can, I think. Yeah, because it is important, I feel from talking to other moms, that you still need to have you still use need to have that sense of self. You need to have something that you can do without your children. You know, it's so I'm just a happy mother. I'm a better mother. I'm a happier mother when I'm when I'm making things callous in its choosing. sweeping across a baby. Laughter sands on defenseless. Spock this shins have detached This is my love with your writing of your music, leaving you scoring. Have you found that that's changed at all since became a mum, like the themes that you explore that kind of thing? The themes in my writing have changed definitely. Yeah. I've I want to say finished writing but I haven't finished recording so the album so maybe I haven't finished writing it either. Maybe there'll be some new song that finds its way onto it. But I have a collection of songs I have a new body of work that I'm I've started recording and And it's it's very much inspired by motherhood and and relationships with my own mother and and grief and and yeah identity and belonging and home and I don't think I would have explored those themes pre children's pre children my songs weren't all about love and breakups you know a number that were and the number that still are you know, but I don't think I would have been inspired to explore those really personal relationships family relationships had I not experienced that imagining of your family Sandra MiFi meets your friends then words fall out like stone we carry them like it to your children they see what you're maybe not the two and a half year old but your your older daughter she knows what you're doing. She knows that you're recording she knows you're making music. She aware of that your contribution to the world. I suppose. She hasn't seen any of my music videos. Actually. I haven't showed her any of those. But she knows she knows I play she knows that. Most of the most of the time what my little one says don't go to a geek mummy. If he sees me putting lipstick on. He's like can you do any of these don't go it's sorry, some slams don't know. I find you i joking about it more because I think we've been so you know, with the lockdown. Everything's been so kind of home. Homebound, so I'm pretty keen to to get out. So I do joke more about that now. But um, but ya know, she she knows. She knows I sing and play and I don't. Yeah, time will tell whether, you know, she's on the therapist couch going my mum was so selfish or, you know, or whether she'll say I was I was proud to see her do things maybe it'd be both probably. I'm guessing. That's isn't it? Maybe it's a little little of both? do really interesting, I wonder what how music compares with other art forms? Because I'm in music as well. I feel like you know, there was that Triple J tweet fuel. You know about which I when I read it, I was like, I don't know if that's really intended for musicians. Like I saw it. And I was like, there must be something else behind that. Because that is just so insulting that I'm sure no one would be stupid. Like no one at Georgia will be stupid enough to insult that many people. Like on purpose. But it was so like, wow. quite awful to read. But, you know, I don't I don't know if there's explicit ageism. In other art forms where people aren't presenting themselves. Yeah, you know, as the work yeah, but probably another isn't dead. So I've got a friend who is a really successful ballet dancer. And, you know, there's this idea that once you get to a certain age and you like, you are not going to be as flexible as a 22 year old, you know, if, if you're in your 50s you're just not going to have the same body, but whether you know, that can still be celebrated and still be, you know, a vehicle for emotion. I mean, how could it not be if you had a dancer with like, 45 years of experience on stage is a 60 year old How could it not be incredible but yeah, I do wonder like how, as I'm getting older and I'm in a young person's industry, you shouldn't be it's I mean, it's not run by all young people. It's run by old men but but yeah, it does. Is it the same for writers who who don't have to have their It faces on the on the work. Is it the same for visual artists, video artists, as women age? Are they more respected? Or is there more pressure to have achieved things and are well, you're this age and you haven't achieved it yet? That's something that I'm would like to know more about. So tell me your findings, you should publish them. But yeah, at first, I thought that must be like a lyric for a song that I'm too old to, like. There must be reason why that that happened. And I think, you know, in the end, I'm glad because I think it it allowed it gave people the confidence to call it out. And just Yeah, I mean, a lot. I am friends with musicians who are my age, and we're just 21. And no joking about that. And be okay with it. I'm 38 Next week. But that, you know, we've all had the thing where Triple J will say, Oh, we we think you're not maybe quite right. To be fair. You know, similar to you, like, I'm not sure that my music really is Triple J music, but I know people I know women who are making Triple J type pop music. Yeah, we're being told Are we just think it's not right, like the right kind of thing for us. Let's move on to the slightly older Double J. But then I I've got a couple of friends who are men who have no problem getting played. So I might know, I don't know. Is it a coincidence? Yeah. See, I thought when the backlash came out, he was certainly I noticed more women reacting to that, quote, men were some men was supportive. But by and large I, for the people that I follow at least, that the women were the ones going hang on a second like, Yeah, I know. It really does. It troubles me. And then some of the comments, there was a really interesting tweet in reply that if you want to double j to be taken seriously, you know, create the same sort of exciting opportunities on double jayven on Triple J. So revamp that to make it something that people aren't like, Oh, great. Now my dad was like, yeah, like you've been primed off to a lesser, you know, and I do think that, that hopefully that will that will grow. Yeah, there was an artist Jack Cole, who was talking about that. He's a out and proud, gay man and a singer songwriter, beautiful singer songwriter and had a lot of wonderful success and to supporting Sarab Lesko and his recent albums received a lot of success. But he was saying that, you similarly, it's the ageism thing is, is compounded by if you're a woman, if you're non binary, if you're gay, if you're from a diverse cultural background, if you're First Nation, so and his experience was very much that, you know, you don't want to have an h you get asked to you know, why don't you send it on to Double J But Double J don't have the lack of version? They don't it's, you can't tune in in your car. It's digital radio. So it's, yeah, yeah. Yeah, hopefully that the only thing I just think it'd be better if there was more Australian, you know, national, radiant, like you've Double J get up to be more of a just a different Triple J and then we're fantastic. But someone else would made the point that Double J or Triple J really rose to cultural fame or importance before the internet. Oh, that was for me. You know, we'd listened to my cassette player ready to hit record when I hear the song that I liked, because it was no Spotify. Yeah, recorded on tape. Yeah, really old. But now that there's the internet, we can all hear about whatever music we want. You know, I still think there's a place for it. I think radio is a really powerful way to connect with people and share music but it is like maybe they're not the cultural gatekeepers that perhaps I think what we think they are because there's the thing called the internet that the kids are talking about this amazing thing I see on the outside like a size I guess it's hard to ask you when you're in lockdown what you've got coming up. Oh, that's Thanks for Thanks for being sensitive enough to kind of say that. You know, I've been around for that. What do you got coming out? Have you asked me that? Yeah. But nothing coming up? No. Thank you for asking. And thank you for putting that beautiful little disclaimer on there about lockdown and the challenges that we're facing with being able to create new works. Really, the main thing I'm focusing on the moment is building up motherlode. It's been something that I find really, I didn't think that ever be something that excited me about building as, as I've been excited about creating songs and writing songs and sharing them with the world and building that sort of the Georgia fields project. I feel really just as excited by Motherload at the moment. So almost sometimes I have to remind myself, hey, you know, have you done any GA feels? Okay, have you worked on your songs because I've just been very excited about starting that off. But I do have some songs written and I'm in the I'm basically I'm trying to get it funded. So I'm, I'm saving money, I'm doing the grants, I'm doing all the things. So that's taking up a lot of energy. But I've decided that I'm just gonna keep trying to record the songs, I've got a single coming out soon, where were worked with a with the producer for the album, which, you know, I'm really excited about sharing because we went into a lovely studio and, you know, sing it in the lovely studio, and he's mixed it and it sounds lovely, and can't wait to share that if I can't get funding together. You know, it might be more of a Lo Fi project, but I feel I won't. I will. And this is another conversation for another day maybe on creativity and, and, and motherhood. But I feel that until I've kind of recorded these songs, it's very challenging to write are the ones I don't know if you're like that, like I'm very much like, I need to record the songs now. I need to share them. It's like and then I can close the chapter. And I can Yeah, so I think I have to record them. So they will come out at some point in some way. Yeah. Now with varying sounds of maybe some of them are going to have my kids in the background. I don't know. I could send my two Nerf guns for you. Just to help you kind of really concentrate really getting my feel I do feel I heard that's not I feel like though. Now like I've done shows where something's you know, distracting or it's like nothing is is prepares you for that stage craft focus and when you're trying to practice and you've got kids running around in the lounge room like it's just such a good training man thank you so much. Yeah, I look forward to seeing how it goes. Likewise. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet My breath is my heart was

Kellie Nobes Australian professional stylist S2 Ep35 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Kellie Nobes, who is a professional stylist and mum of 2 from Mount Gambier , Australia. Kellie knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. Through her blog What Kel Wore , and support from her local community, Kellie began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. Her big break came when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand Ashlee Lauren’ s New York Fashion Week Runway Show in 2017, dropping everything, including her job, to travel to New York for the event. Since then Kellie has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow Medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. Kellie's services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots, to the recent launch of her wedding & bridal styling & planning service. We chat about self confidence, self care and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mum. ***This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum*** Connect with Kellie on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kellienobes/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kelly nopes. Kelly is a professional stylist and mum of two from Matt Gambia in South Australia. Kelly knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. Through her blog what care wore and support from her local community. Kelly began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. her big break came in 2017 when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand, Ashley Lauren, and their New York Fashion Week runway show, dropping everything including her job to travel to New York for the event. Since then, Kelly has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. Kelly Services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots to the recent launch of her new wedding and bridal styling and planning service. Today, we chat about self confidence, self care, and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mom. This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum Well, welcome to the podcast today. Kelly, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on today. Yeah, absolutely. You call yourself a professional stylist? Can you share with us what that sort of means and what that entails? Yeah, sure. So originally, when I started my business five years ago, it was specifically fashion styling. So my correct title is fashion stylist and image consultant. But over the progress of the last I guess Yeah, five years I've sort of branched out into lots of different creative avenues and now doing weddings and bridal stuff as well as business styling and social media stuff for businesses so basically kind of Yeah, anything creative or anything visual so I decided to retweet the name and say professional stylist because I felt like that was a bit more of a sort of umbrella that all the categories fell into rather than just Yes specific fashion styling. So yeah, it's been a bit of a crazy ride but now five years later here we are. So going right back to the beginning, have you always been really interested in clothes and you know, fashion and dressing up and that kind of thing? Yeah, so I guess anyone that has been following my business for a while now probably knows the ins and outs that I was always into clothes and dress ups I had a big Dress Up Box loved Yeah, anything fashion based. And it just kind of progressed from a really a really young age. I shared a photo on Instagram not long ago of me that my mom said to me, she was like who would have thought and it was just yeah, the writing was written on the wall. I was there in my dress ups with the these fake nails on and the the neck lace on and yeah, and that was me, I think when I was like, oh gosh, very young, maybe like three or four. So it started from kind of progressed to be something that I didn't really envision but in saying that too, I was never always the best dressed kid or anything like that. It just kind of stemmed from I guess a passion for creative elements and design and all that sort of thing. And yeah, so but it definitely stemmed from a young age and was always something that I was very, very interested in. Yeah, was there any particular sort of trigger for that? Like, were you surrounded by, you know, with your mom or, you know, other women in your life into that kind of thing? Or was it just coming out of a balloon? Yes, and no, I mean, um, you know, like mom always presented herself quite well and that sort of thing. But I someone asked me that. Yeah. Before it was like when was the kind of key moment that stood out in time and I don't think that there's necessarily one but I do have a really early memory of mum bringing in. It was a black painted box with bright colored flowers on it and it had all her old earrings and dress ups. And pretty much from then on that was that was the main main part of my childhood. So I'd say that it stemmed from that blackbox there wasn't necessarily I guess a key person or individual that kind of standard. It was just Yeah, I don't know, I just sort of started from that. And it just kind of grew and grew and grew. And as I got older, I found that I was getting more enjoyment out of it and started taking I guess a bit more of a an interest in a curious curiosity in the business side of things, too. So yeah, I'd say that was probably the key standout memory that I have was definitely that Black Dress Up Box. That's I guess what what started started the journey. Oh, that's cool did you go on to do some formal study in the in that area? Yeah. So originally, when I was in primary school, I wanted to be a fashion designer towards the end of primary school and early high school. And then total honesty, I realized how hard that was going to be and decided that that was not the avenue that I wanted to take. But I originally really enjoyed the retail side of it. So enjoyed the business and retail, learned a lot about that gained a little bit of experience in that. And when I left high school, I knew that uni was never really for me. But I decided to go and study an Advanced Diploma in Fashion and Retail Management in Adelaide. So still moved away started that study. And when I was there doing that there was also a stylist course. And so that really took my fiancee. And at the time I was working at Marian in a retail store. And they were doing shoots and different bits and pieces and stylists were kind of coming and going and that for me it was really quite fascinating that people get a job going and helping people shopping and photo shoots and all that sort of thing. And it just sounded amazing to me. So I kind of first got the idea there. But around that time I was moving home back to Gambia we had a bit of a rough time, we had some health issues with my mom and we we lost a friend and it was just kind of a Yeah, turbulent sort of period. And so they didn't actually offer that offline. So I kind of just gave up there for a little while came home, still worked in the fashion business side of things. And then a couple years later, I found a online course for Yeah, fashion styling and Image Consulting. So I did it offline through an institute in Sydney. And yeah, progressed from there. Yeah, great. How would you describe your own personal style? Really, I always get. I'm always really interested by this question, because I feel like no matter who asks me, and when asks me it changes. But someone asked me, yeah, probably over 12 months ago now. And to me, there was three words that came to mind and it was feminine, edgy and changing. And for me, I guess changing was the standout because for me, it depends on my mood depends on my personal life, it depends on I guess what I'm doing, who I'm with at the time, especially since becoming a mum, my style has changed completely again. Some of it was obviously depending on what was accessible for breastfeeding depending on, you know, what I was going to be doing with the kids that day depended on what my style was like. So I'd say it sort of changes sometimes it's bold and eclectic. And then other times it's quite plain and quite basic. And then there's other times where you'll see me down the street and people will wonder how I got into this job or how I do this job. Because if you can see me some of the time, even at home when I've answered the Dometic Gosh, some people must just be like, Whoa, and I think that's yeah, a big part of my job is like, you know, giving women and understanding that you don't have to look your best all the time and it's not about that it's about learning how to when you want to and building some of that self esteem and confidence because I know for me when I when I look good I feel good and that's just how I feel some people are completely different. But I just Yeah, I guess coming into my business too and learning about my personal style and learning how to, I guess dress to that and as well as learn like the the art of actually styling and how different things create different looks. In the illusions of some things in the ratios and drawing the eye to where I want people to be looking and that sort of thing, so it's quite fascinating. There is quite a lot of education and knowledge that goes behind it. But um, yeah, I think it really depends day to day. My, my style, it changes all the time. So that one that's that's a good answer that makes that makes perfect sense. And I'm also wanted to ask, is there any sort of like, well known people like celebrities or public figures style that you really admire, that you think is really awesome. Yeah. So there's a couple of standout ones. I'm not sure how well that well known there'll be to some people but I know like anyone that knows me or follows me knows I'm obsessed with a lady named Sophie Bell who goes by the Instagram Peppa heart. And I just yeah, love her style. Love her vibe, I guess. Yeah, she's definitely someone that I source a lot of inspiration from. There's a couple of other stylists who I really enjoy their style. And that is Elise Greer in Melbourne and Lauren dimenna in Marion. So I think she's now Lauren Willis. She just got married recently. But it's quite fascinating because she was actually one of the stylists when I was working at General Kenton, Marian. And so I knew her from Marian and I remembered her face. I remembered what she was doing. And then years later, I went to Adelaide fashion festival with ash from a last day or Ashley Lauren, who's my sister in law that does obviously all those amazing headpieces and her brand is amazing. And yeah, we went to a live fashion festival and I saw Lauren, and I was like, You know what, I'm gonna go up and tell her that she was actually yeah, like a bit of the reasoning behind why I got into doing what I was doing. And I'm went up to her and yeah, introduce myself. And she remembered me and now we actually yeah, have quite a bit of contact. And yeah, so she's definitely someone that I sought inspiration from and I just think to like Carrie Bickmore I don't know there's something about her. She can just wear anything ever. And she just always looks amazing. So yeah, that'll be that'll that'll be my life and that's cool. Read your work. You mentioned Ashley, Lauren, you've done. You went to New York for her runway in 2017. That's pretty. That's a pretty big highlight. It's not massive. I don't I don't know how I'll probably ever top that. That was just a bucket list item from Yeah, just way back. And so at the time, when Ash got that opportunity, I'd obviously been involved a little bit in her business. And you know, we helped on photo shoots and bits and pieces. But at the time that she got the invite to New York, I was actually managing Smeagol. So a children's stationery store, like completely total opposite genres in every way. But at the time, I was looking to travel and that was you provide, getting the opportunities to do that. And so yeah, I was doing that. And I'd started my styling business on the side and was just kind of getting it up and running and seeing how I felt about it and learning all about it. And yeah, Ash rang me one night when I was working Thursday, late night shopping at Smeagol, which was I think I just got invited to New York Fashion Week. So I was like, well, let's just like definitely kind of knock out those details and find out if it's real, because it's like, Oh, my God. And then yeah, sure me back. She's like, I think it's legit. And so she was like, oh, like you have to come and she's like, well, you quit your job and come with me. I was like, Um, let me think about that. I rang my boss the next day, I was like, I'm sorry about this opportunity has, you know, popped up and even my boss was like, she's like, look, I don't I don't want to see you go. But absolutely, she's like, you would be stupid to turn that down. So I went on packing lunch boxes one night to a few months later going to New York Fashion Week and styling the models there. So I just always believe that yeah, life always has a path for us when we when we need it or Yeah, believe everything happens for a reason. And that was obviously a big a huge starting point in my business to considering I hadn't been up and running for very long. So that kind of Yeah, snowballed into something. Yeah. Even more amazing as well. So yeah, So, yeah. And I mean, I don't expect you to name drop, but you can if you are you with your style some of the WAGs for the AFL Brownlow, which is pretty. Yeah, yeah. I was actually looking at the photos you sent me today. And I also hadn't thought about it. Do you tell the hair and makeup? How you want? Like it's the whole package? Do you describe everything how you want it done? Like, yeah, you do. Like, it's the whole look sort of thing. Yeah. So it isn't the whole look. So I think that's one thing that people think this styling too is that I just pick the garments or the outfit, but I am involved in the whole process. And that's not just with the brand new clients that's with every client, especially if they're doing event styling and stuff like that, at the end of the day, obviously, it comes down to their preference, they're the one that has to wear it, not me, but I definitely put my kind of spin on it or vision and say, This is what I think that we should go with. And they kind of take it from there. And then it's also about, I guess why using with the hair and makeup artists to, to make sure that they're comfortable in showcasing what they want to showcase because it's about them showing their art to so the styling is my part, the designer is there, part three, they've got to be happy with what they're putting out there. Same with hair and makeup, they're not going to do something that they're not comfortable with doing or they don't like because it's their name on it too. So it really is a whole kind of team effort. There are a lot of people involved. But yeah, with the brand loads too. It's it's, again, there's so much that goes into it that people don't see behind the scenes. It's not just go there on the day, and it's an hour to get like this is like months worth of work in the lead up and you know, picking designs and contacting designers and yeah, working out looks and then like yeah, hair and makeup and accessories sort of thing. So for me to obviously don't live in a major city. So I'm doing all of this via email and phone. When I originally started Kelly beams who was my first ever Brownlow client, I actually flew to Brisbane. And she just had a baby. So originally, we were kind of looking for off the rack because fittings and appointments and all that were quite hard to manage. But then in the end, we ended up securing a designer and getting custom in the end, which turned out amazing. But yeah, it's it's just like a whirlwind. And I don't think I'll ever be able to describe that feeling of hearing my name on the red carpet or, like especially with them. Yeah. Julie Neil, on the second year, like Lucky Neil has obviously become quite well known in the year after he actually won, which is, you know, getting the weight in like riding COVID time. And I just had Yeah, a young, a young baby at home and was in the thick of that. And it's just yeah, I guess sometimes I just thought that's one of those moments where I feel like I'm on the outside looking in and I'm like, wow, that's just little me just would have been like yay. Like, that's, that's always something that I've wanted. So I'm really hoping to get back into a bit of that again this year. And now that I'm back sort of Yeah, working in being involved. I'm really hoping that I can secure some of those red carpet moments again, because they are Yeah, so so much fun and yeah, really amazing to be a part of. You're based in Munich, Gambia. So for those who don't know my Gambia is basically halfway between Adelaide and Melbourne. So we're only like, what do we got 30,000 people, not a huge, huge town. So how do you go there? Like you mentioned the, the phone calls in the Skype and stuff like Do you ever feel like it's a drawback being here? Or do you just think no, but this is where my life is. And you just make it work? It really, it really does go both ways. I mean, I won't lie there would definitely be way more opportunities for me in this city with what I do. And you know, I've kind of made my peace with the fact that that that is how it is. On the other hand, I don't think my business would have become anywhere near as successful if I had launched it in the city. I think watching it here. There wasn't a whole heap of competition at the time when I started. There, I guess. Word of mouth in a small town. I was a really big thing too. And I had already known a lot of people, I come from a big family. My partner or my now husband knows a lot of people in his family and through ash and all of her connections and the people that I've met along the way in my network and friends, that in itself was advertising for me. So had I started in the city, I might not necessarily have had that. So I think it's definitely helped my business and is the benefit. And currently to, although there's not as many opportunities as what there are in the city, there are still ample opportunities, because I am here doing it. And again, I still have those networks and those resources. So it can be a little bit challenging, I guess, especially for some of the clients that I have worked with or want to work with the time and the travel. And now with young kids, it makes it a little bit harder to manage some of those things. But yeah, I mean, at the same time, I've just kind of ran with it. And for now, this is this is where I am, and this is where I want to be. And I'm not ruling out of move in the future. Because I believe, you know, when opportunities arise, you got to go to assess, and I am one of those, I say yes. And I figured the rest out later. So I'm not ruling it out. But at the same time, if I was to be here forever, then that's yeah, that's how it is. And I think that's been part of, especially through COVID, and stuff like that to adapting my business to not just be tunnel in what I offer. I can't just offer one thing. It's about learning. What are the things am I good at? What are my strengths? What other things can I offer? I think there's an opening in the market for different things that I'm kind of working on behind the scenes at the moment. So things like that, I think, yeah, it is in my benefit to be in Merritt, Gambia. It just makes it a little bit more work. Yes, sometimes when working with the people from away or, you know, to we have amazing stores here in Mount Gambia with a lot of amazing local businesses. But sometimes, you know, I don't have a Rundle Mall at my back door, or I don't have a Chadstone shopping center. So sorting things for clients can sometimes be a little bit challenging, too. So like I said, there are pros and cons. Either way, it's hard, but at the same time, yeah, I think it has made my business to be what it is today being in Mount Gambia. Yeah. And I think there's a tremendous amount of like, you talked about the word of mouth that community support, I think people here really get behind each other. Like if someone's gonna crack, they really support and share and tell people and social media, all that sort of stuff. It's a really good community. Yes. Yeah. It's great. We are very lucky to have that community. And And as I've said it like 1000 times, and I say, you know, I'm so grateful for the support that the community has shown, but I don't think I'll ever Yeah, ever get over that. Because to take an idea and run with it is nerve racking. And it's like daunting, and you know, it can be quite challenging. But when you get that bit of a support, I think, too, makes you want to support others in the community as well or their businesses because you know what it's like to get that sorry. I think it's yeah, it's great for everyone. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So turning over to your family side, you've mentioned your children, just in passing a couple of times. Tell us a little bit more about your kids. Yes. So I have Vance, who will be eight months old this week. And I have Ziggy who is turning three in May. So there's 10 days between their birthdays. So two years apart. My Yeah. Crazy boy. I say crazy boys. It's crazy. Crazy. He is He is my whirlwind and Vince is my little chiller so we'll see if it changes but yeah, it's it's been a roller coaster the last couple of years. It's and it's so true. People say it is the hardest thing that you will ever do, but definitely worth it. There are some days I want to pull my hair out by like breakfast time. And then there are other days where you're just like I'm smashing this I've got to get it down. Pardon. Yes. So but it's great. I love it. And I love being a boy mom and yeah, they they definitely keep me entertained, that's for sure. It's funny when I had I've got two boys and I like when I had my second boy Like everyone knew that will be my last child. I remember my, my pop said to me Oh, sorry, you didn't get your girl and I was like, but it's actually okay because I actually love having boys. I never had a brother. So I was totally new to this whole boy world. But it's so I just love it. It's just I know. And I was the same like 100% like total honesty, I was a little bit disappointed when we found out that the second was going to be another boy, I think just because the pregnancy for me was quite different. And I don't know, we both my husband and I had a strong feeling it was going to be a girl. And we never found out the sex was easy, but I was 100% locked in that it was a boy from the get go. And so yeah, I think this time, we were really 5050 on whether we were going to find out or not. And then we decided to, and then that little bit of disappointment lasted and then like for maybe a day and then the next day I was like this is so how it's meant to be. And I'm like it's so true when people say you just grateful to have a happy, healthy baby. And that's exactly what I was happy to have. And I was yeah, I felt very lucky. And now it's like dance was just always meant to meant to be mine. So I can't imagine life without him now. So I'm so glad it turned out the way that it did. Yeah, that's so sweet. I just got goosebumps when you said that. Because we say the same thing. Sorry. I'm getting emotional. We say the same thing available filler. It's like you just can't you just can't imagine not having him. No, you just, you were meant to be in our family law. 100%. That's I know, unlike even with the you like I say, you know, he's he's my crazy one. But I think they are very different personality wise and like, oh my gosh, I'd love to gamble with anything in this world. But he was a hard newborn. And we I don't think I slept for like, it felt like eternity. He wasn't a great sleeper. Wasn't a great feeder. Very busy, but, you know, like, he's still very affectionate at the same time. And now with events, he seems to have, I was worried us like if I'm gonna do that, on top of having a two year old I don't I don't know how things are gonna go. But now like Vince is you know, he sleeps quite well. And he's he's quite relaxed and quite chilled and just happy to take it all in. So I think Yeah, it's true that you just, you know, you deal with it, what you dealt with, but I think Vance knew that I needed a, I needed a good sleep at this time round. To be mine is delivered, delivered the good. I mean, apart from teething, that's to you better in the work yeah. In terms of your work, then were you able to keep working? I guess three pregnancies and like after you had I know you're sort of starting to get back in but after your head Ziggy where you were getting back into work? How that sort of go for you. Yeah, so when I was pregnant with Ziggy, I was diagnosed with hyperemesis. So that is like extreme nausea and vomiting, like, a lot. So it definitely threw a little bit of a spanner in the works. But I was really lucky at that time. Majority of my work was through ash, I was working with ash. So I was very lucky that you know, the days that it was really bad, I was able to head home or work from home and that sort of thing. And we're still doing my business, but I was mindful not to kind of overexert myself. And yeah, he's just kind of monitor but um, it was really funny, because the week before I went to the brown loads, the first time I actually found out I was pregnant that week with Ziggy and I had severe morning sickness. So I was actually styling the girls and want to get the brown light at the crown. I had five girls to do that year, and I was vomiting like, in their rooms. And so I had kind of blinded on nerves at the start. And then in the end, I had to tell them because I was like, they're gonna be like, What is going on with this chair? Because I had like, I'm really sorry, I'm actually pregnant and like violently ill. So that was a journey in itself. But then yeah, that had had that up until about halfway and then had a really enjoyable pregnancy busy, and then had probably about four or five months off when I had zeggen loved that time. You know, adjusting to motherhood. But for me, I love my kids that I know that they're not just me, I need to have a creative outlet and do a bit of work to make me I guess not lose that sense of self identity that was really important to me. I feel like I'd worked so hard to get to that point, I didn't want to then just, you know, lose it all. And that I just felt like it wasn't really in me to do that. So yeah, got back into a bit of work just part time. And then yeah, if anything, business just started booming, which was amazing, but was a bit of an adjustment after, you know, learning how to go back into the workforce as a mom and learning to do things on no sleep and learning about daycare and babysitters and routines and time management, I think was a big one. And then, yeah, when he was about 18 months old, we decided to start trying again. And yeah, I was like really quite lucky that we can say vets, but unfortunately, with his pregnancy came hyperemesis again, and, like double as intense, like, I was so sick it like, Oh, I get emotional talking about it, because I just don't know how I ever function through that. And I don't know, if people really understood how bad it was like mentally and physically. So I ended up before anyone knew I had to take six weeks off of work, because I was just struggling so bad. And it was at the time that I had just opened a new studio and was working out of that. So it was quite challenging. And that lasted the whole pregnancy. So I ended up having to start my maternity leave a lot earlier. And yeah, it just, I don't know, it was just just threw a massive spanner in the works, I think because physique, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have it to halfway and then I'm going to be fine. And it's going to be smooth sailing. And then when I kind of got to the halfway, I was like, why am I not feeling better yet? Like, this is not kind of what I what I had signed up for. As always, I had amazing clients who were very understanding and who was so good, but it was a real eye opener to me to take care of myself and and look after myself. And unfortunately, that just meant, yeah, putting everything on hold for for quite some time. So yeah, yeah, it was a bit of a learning experience. But just one of those things. You just got to ride ride the waves. And yeah, I've come out the other side. And maybe that's why I got a really good baby, because I had a really bad pregnancy. Maybe that's how it was. Yeah, you are that after all Yeah. I was reading one of your blogs on your website. When you were talking about that early phase after you you had ZTE. And one of the one of the things I wanted to ask you about you, you said that you were eager to have some time off and enjoy the phase. But you also you'd struggle to be fully detached from it all. So was that on your mind already? When you were pregnant? And going into having the baby we thinking, how's this gonna go for me? I'm used to being so creative. You know? How am I gonna feel? You know, it was and it was, it was really quite interesting. Because obviously, I guess until you're in that situation, and you are pregnant, and you are thinking you don't for me, I hadn't really thought about it. Like when we talked about having a baby and starting a family and all of that. It wasn't really something that I considered at that time. But then definitely as the pregnancy kind of Yeah, progressed, and I was sick, and it was changing my plans that was kind of that eye opener to Oh, that's right, like everything is going to change, you know, and how am I going to manage this? And I think for me, and I know like ash can vouch for this. I really did struggle with the thought of being put on hold again because I felt like I'd had to work so hard to get to that point. And those first couple of years were full of such highlights. You know, things like New York and the brown noise and Adelaide fashion festival and, you know, I went to Melbourne fashion festival and that was amazing. And there was all these things that I felt like was such huge highlights to me and then how thing that bit of I guess, I guess a little bit of worry to that, because I'm not relevant at the time or I'm kind of taking that time off. I didn't want to then lose all the business that I'd worked so hard to create and having to put myself out there again and starting started again. And, yeah, yeah, it was, and it was rebuilding, and it was quite challenging to, I guess, yeah, to switch off, but I know, definitely at the start, I did, because I didn't have a choice, I was literally so focused on that baby. And, you know, dealing with the sleep, and like learning how to mother and all of that, and I was really enjoying it too, like I, you know, was definitely had in the back of my mind, you know, a bit of work here, and there would be amazing, but I was really soaked into enjoying that time, because I know that you just don't get that time back. And especially with finance, that was one thing that I work this time around is that I'm not going to have that time back again. And they grow so fast, and just to enjoy it. So I had a lot longer off with Vance and what I did with Ziggy, I think two because I was much busier with the two than what I was just with the one it relearn how to parent again, but this time to two people at once. And yeah, it was definitely something that I Yeah, started, I guess struggling with throughout the pregnancy. But when I felt ready to and I knew that it was manageable. And I think for me, I kind of went into a bit of a downward spiral there. During the pregnancy, you know, we went into just a bit of, like chaos kind of around that time. And I just thought, you know what, I just, I need something, I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like Nana, I genuinely think, you know, it was the best thing I ever did. And everyone's different. Some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason. Other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what, what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. I'm like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish, because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. But I read this thing ages ago, and it's always stuck with me. And it's, we expect women to be mothers. And I can't I can't think how it goes. But it's like we want others to be, you know, mothers without working. But then we want like women to be working, you know, not mothering too. So it's, I'll have to find the quote. And it's something you know, and it was just so no matter what we're going to be judged whether we are working mothers, or whether we're stay at home mothers, either way, we're going to be judged. So I think it's about realizing that you just have to brush those those opinions off and just through Yeah, really what is right for you. And I know, I've received comments from both and some people like oh my god, it's amazing that you're getting back into work, and you're doing this and you're doing doing that. And then I've had the reverse it. Oh, but like do you do you think you should spend some more time at home with the kids and all this too? So I'm like, you know, you just take it with a grain of salt and you just got to really do what? What's right for you? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm gonna Yeah, go back. Go back to I've actually printed out your blog post. Yeah, it's actually very inspiring. It's, it's, we expect women to work like they don't have children and to raise children as if they don't work. And it's like, a nutshell. I loved that. You you basically said, I feared if I wanted to work as soon as soon after having a baby I'd be seen as a bad mom. And then I realized something amazing, I can actually do whatever the hell I want. And it doesn't make me a bad person, let alone a bad mom. So I'm actually going to stick that on my little quote. Well, because that honestly you're right, it doesn't who gives a shit? Anybody else thinks because I can make Greg moments I like but no one is in your shoes. No one is in your home. No one is in your hair. Like yeah, yeah. I was just saying this to Josh, my husband the other day, I was like, you know, isn't it funny? All the pressures that we put on ourselves, especially I think it's first time moms. You know, all these expectations that we have of ourselves and have How things are gonna go. And, you know, like, it's, it's so funny because I think of myself as a cool, calm collected person. I know there's definitely times where I'm a stress head, or you know, I won't, I won't say that I'm always cool, calm and collected. But I think going into the pregnancy and into the having a baby. I felt like I was like that. And in some ways, I think that I was and then But then looking back on it now, especially since having Vance, I'm like, Gosh, I wish I knew with my first what I know with my second and all these things that I was stressing about with Ziggy. But now this time around, I'm like, I don't even have time to stress about that. Because it's when you've got the next one, you're just thinking about completely different things. And I was only we've just started like, a few months ago started solids with the answers and example. And I remember thinking, you know, I had this book was again, it was an A, this amount of grain per day and this amount of protein and this amount of fruit veg. Now I'm like with Vance, I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't know any of that. I'm like, if he's hungry, he's hungry. If he wants to worry once more, and yeah, he's fine. If you look at him, he is massive, like, any of that stuff. So yeah, even I think that's why probably too, he's sleeping a bit better. Because I'm like, rat, you're getting wrapped up and you're getting put down. And just all the things that I second guessed myself is, uh, you know, this time around, and I said, you know, I could have been like that was to get the first time around, and it wouldn't have made me a bad mother. But at the time, I kept thinking on, is this how I'm supposed to be doing it? Or? Yeah, and I think because putting that pressure on myself through that time, I just got to a point of, I can't do this to myself anymore. And this is not me. And this is not who I am. And this is not my personality to be that way. And I think once I kind of through some of those, I guess, expectations of myself out the window, I definitely had a lot more of an enjoyable experience of motherhood. So yeah, it's good advice. Honestly, my story's very similar. I will my first I was just always stressed, always worried was, Is this right? How long should he sleep for? Is he getting enough milk, rara and the same thing? Like Alex was really full on like, didn't sleep, well didn't feed. And then there's seven years between my two kids, because I just couldn't be. Me and my siblings, actually their seven year. Yeah, yeah. So when I went back and got digs, I was like cheese. I hope I get a good kid this time. But I did, thank God, but I'm such a different person now. Like, I'm so much more relaxed. And because I've got that perspective, like you said, things that you were really worried about, you're like now or it's just, you know, things are just got to happen, because there's two of them now, and life's busy. I kind of wish this will sound really silly. But I almost wish I had I had twins, because then I wouldn't have had time to stress over all these little things I would have just doing stuff all the time. And just. And I have a really close, beautiful friend who has twins. And they were born like just before. So their birthdays. I think you're covering coming up soon. So they're like, Yeah, five months ahead of Ziggy. And I just remember thinking like when I was pregnant with him being like, and they already had another child. And I was like, oh my god, twins. And I was just like, Oh my God, and then watching her with hundreds. I was like, Oh, my God, like she just made it look so easy. And was so like, again, I felt like there wasn't it could have been different behind the scenes that she wasn't putting that pressure on herself. And it wasn't this and I learned a lot from her. And she was so helpful with with Ziggy when I was like pregnant with dance, and she was like, Oh, I'll take you for a few hours. And like, you're gonna take my child on top of your twins and your other child like a woman and I have to give her a shout out. And thanks, Candace. And she's just like, oh my god, I remember picking it up one day, and she barked at Him and given Him dinner. And he came around and I was just like, oh my god, like if she can do that, and she's I was like, then what am I even worried about? Like, oh, these things I'm like, I think it was the same. She just didn't have time. And she just did what she did. And honestly, they're the most beautiful little boys and I just say idolize Excellent guys. They just absolutely nailing parenthood. Oh, it's lovely to have those people around you, isn't it and select Edit. And for her to have done that. Like, it's like she knows what mums need. She knows the things that a yes, no, you know, yeah, that's awesome. Something for me. After having like, you know, until until you have a baby, you just don't know. You really don't know, unlike I mean, I've got lots of different friendship groups. In my sort of high school friends, I was only the second or third to sort of have have a baby. And then in other groups, you know, there was only a couple that that sort of had their first baby or young kids and when I had to get I remember messaging some of them and being like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like, I just I did not know what was involved and like I get it now I get it. And if anything, I think when my friends had babies, it almost gave me that little bit of confidence to be like okay, now I know that this is what they're going through at the same time and you know, hopefully I can drop a meal off here or there, or I can, you know, just send a text and see how they're going or be that ask questions. And I think, yeah, until you've done it, you just you just don't know, like he would eat. And I just instantly I remember like in the first few weeks after having Ziggy, but thinking of all of the people that I knew that had kids and just like having a newfound respect for them and being like, wow, like, I just yeah, it's just a crazy journey. And no one I don't think no matter what anyone says, either or just will not prepare you for what you're in for, especially in those first, you know, especially with the first time around and in those first few months of learning. And, you know, and dealing with the emotions, I think was a big one like God, like how can you love something so much? And yeah, I felt like I was not an emotional person. And then I think since having kids that's just gone out the window. And now I'm just emotional over everything. I'm not emotional, and I will just cry over something so stupid, and I'm okay. Yeah, cuz it definitely changed have changed that personality trait in me. Oh, sweet. But you're right. It wouldn't. It doesn't matter how much how many people try and prepare you for being a mother or a father. It's like, because your brain doesn't even go there. Like you don't believe them. Like, don't believe them when they say you won't get sleep. Yeah. Okay, that's nice. Like you just don't believe. I remember specifically one night with ZTE. I don't even know at the surface. I slept on the couch for six weeks when I had ZTE. Like I couldn't even sleep in the same room as my husband cuz he was getting up and going to work and like, we were just up all night. So it was trying to make sure that he got rest. And I remember sitting out on the couch one night and just like, I remember patting again, I was so delirious, I think I'd slept like an hour in like, it felt like a week. But it was probably like a day or two. I remember having him and being like, Oh, I remember when people said that I would be tired. But like I didn't understand to the extent of lack Watch out. And I remember that patting him on the back as I was half like micro sleeping like, this isn't tired. This like, this is not even tired. This is like pure exhaustion and like delirium. And until you know, I pick up people tried to warn me when I was like, yeah, no lesson until you're going through it. You just or when people say that you Yeah, that intense love or like imagining that God forbid anything happened to them. And I just remember there's been times where I've worked myself to tears, thinking, oh my gosh, if anything ever happened, like, I hope they know how much I love them. And you know, it's just, it's just a whirlwind, all the emotions, all the feelings, it's incredible. So you touched briefly on they talked about identity. So it's obviously very important to you to see that you're not just and I don't want to say just a man because you never, I'm doing air quotes. But it's yeah, it's important to you to be Kelly to be a wife to be the sister or, you know, a daughter that it's like, mum doesn't consume everything of your being. Yeah, it can't be just just me, I think, I think too, because part of that probably stemmed from, in, in my, I guess, business or my job, working with women and trying to push them to understand the same thing. And even before I had kids, a lot of the clients that I had were young mothers. And so you know, I was understanding but again until I'd been through it myself, I wasn't you know, I didn't understand fully what what they were experiencing what I was trying to teach them about their self worth and self esteem. And a lot of them were coming to me being like well, you know, we just We've just lost our way and we just don't have that confidence that about ourselves and we're just yeah, like a little bit lost and I was I guess for me it was good because I was an outside source. I wasn't you know, a sister or a friend or I was someone completely disconnected coming in and teaching them like you know, you are valuable and you know, it doesn't make you shallow to make you want to sell feel good and why not find this self identity and learn that it doesn't make them a bad person to yet take care of yourself. doing things for yourself or to re learn that for myself and I became a mom, it was like, I've done this for years. And now I'm doing it's like, I need to remember to hang on a minute. Yeah, it's okay for me to do things. And yeah, I think it was a really kind of useful tool, entering motherhood, after learning about all of this stuff. Because it kind of Yeah, gave me the stepping stones to learn for myself on that journey. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I think what I'm finding talking to moms throughout this project is everyone needs something to fill them up. Like everyone needs something that meets their needs. Because mums are so busy looking after everybody else all day long. And, you know, fixing this and doing that and finding socks and cooking meals, that's fine. But then at the end of the day, there has to be something just for you. You know, it's just Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you shouldn't feel guilty for that. Like, there's no reason to, to feel bad for that, you know? Yeah. And I remember Yeah, I think I said in that blog, I was like, you know, I was worried about, you know, being perceived as a bad mother. And I was like, if anything, it made me a better mother. It made me more patient and tolerant when I was had that bit of something for me, and I knew it made me a better parent to do that, then not to have that. So, yeah, for me, yeah. They've made me feel better within myself, which in turn, are good. I project that onto my kids in feeling good at second. And you know, it is a prime example today. You know, boy jumped on this. And you know, this. I have one of these days, I think the heat has just gotten to everyone I know, it's gotten to me, and we've had a stressful couple of days with everything that's been going on. And the kids haven't been sleeping super amazing. So I think after having such a good run, and then having sleep problems week or so, patient is not where where is I'm like, Ziggy's having meltdowns, university being and I started noticing all of this, and I had yesterday I was like, Alright, I've got to go and do something like for me or do something that I think it's going to make me feel better. And I am working with a brighter moment. And so for me, it created a bit of that stuff. So sometimes, you know, self care isn't just going and taking 20 minutes alone, sometimes it can come in many different forms. It could be surgically, you know, a walk or something like that. But for me, that creative outlet is almost a bit of my self care. Yeah. So I think it's about learning to Yes, what it is that makes you feel better, or what you get enjoyment out of and making time for that, because I'm definitely a candidate that in the last few days, you know, it's a domino effect when I'm stressed it shows in my children. Yeah, absolutely. I can definitely relate to that. It's just, yeah. When Mom's not happy, no one's happy. Exactly. My husband watch for that, too. I see him he's a he's been very patient. Tonight, I ask what sort of, if you've got anything coming up, you want to share about things you're working on? Or? I mean, I'm not asking you to, you know, give away any secret stuff. But have you got anything you wanted to share with the listeners? So when I was introduced, last year, I was so sorry, yeah, last year, in the year before, gosh, it feels like it's almost like a lifetime ago now. I started watching weddings, and like wedding planning and brides. I've worked on a few weddings since then. But I'm actually currently in the process of a complete rebrand and overhaul to focus a lot more on that. So that'll be a complete separate side my business now, which is really exciting. And I'm also currently in the process of creating a new little workspace. So that's been Yeah, a little bit exciting. And it's a slow process, but where we're getting there. So even though Brendan started one of those things, like I have an idea and kind of find time to make that idea work and put the things into that idea can sometimes take a little while. But yeah, definitely. There's a lot of things at the moment. So yeah, if anyone that follows my page or you know, keeps up to date, just stay tuned, because it's all coming about very soon. Well, that's so exciting. That's it So it's like, it's been a real sort of, you know, the, over the last few years like this growth and development for you that you've sort of found things that you love doing. And it's like you've realized there doesn't have to be limits to what you can offer people, like it's just kept building and building. That's so great. learning on the job, you know, I originally started out just making wardrobe audits for people. And as much as I love that my business has progressed a lot more on top of that, and, you know, just I really, it was, was really quite interesting, because last year, I hit, you know, a milestone of how many clients I'd had, and going back through those clients, and actually looking at the different things that I had done in that time. And, you know, I'll always remember those first few clients that I work with, and the things that I'm working on now. It just, yeah, it's it really has evolved into something a lot more than I ever envisioned, and the things that I was doing then to what I'm doing now, you know, working with businesses for their uniforms, and like family shoots, and maternity shoots and stuff like that, what I was doing was event based, as well. And I think it's, you know, even things now that I'm offering digitally that I wasn't able to do beforehand. So it is nice to kind of, I think it keeps exciting to I'm one of those I like a bit of a challenge. And I like you know, having having things happening. So it is really good. There's a lot of, you know, different avenues, you know, in the short term, but again, that doesn't necessarily what I can do in a long term. I'm, you know, it's one of those things, I have all these grand ideas that just believe in the time everything, so I'll be, you know, styling the Oscars or something like that in no time. So stay tuned for that. We'll make sure that we're when we hear your name on the road. We can manifest it out there. Oh, absolutely. That's it. Thanks so much for coming on. Kelly. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for being a part of it. Thank you for having me. Having a chat. Yeah, it's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Tamara Seeley Australian singer songwriter S4Ep98 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Tamara Seeley a singer and songwriter from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mum of 2. Tamara has been a singer since the age of 15, crediting her Scottish heritage as what brought her to singing as well as The Bodyguard movie. After leaving school she went to Melbourne to start her training, from then she has spent time living and performing in London, Doha and South Korea, being flown to from London to New Zealand to act in a commercial and performing on the Disney Cruise Ship in the Carribean Islands. Oh and she sang back up vocals for Right Said Fred of 90s "I'm too Sexy' fame and was an extra in a Bollywood movie too! Her philosophy at that time was to try anything she had the opportunity to. Tamara has 4 releases under her belt, her 2015 EP Gold Armour, singles Eileen and Old Skool Love, and her latest release of a 10 year special remix of her track Release Me which is out now. Even though she has seen some amazing places and travelled so widely, amongst her proudest career achievements is recording and producing her music video for her latest single in home town of Mount Gambier, a regional town of but 28000 people. Tamara - facebook / instagram / music Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it Welcome to another episode of the podcast it is so great to be back for episode 98 Lovely to welcome you from wherever you are around the world. My guest this week is Tamara Seeley. Tamara is a singer and songwriter from Matt Gambia in South Australia and she's a mom of two. Tamara has been a singer since the age of 15. crediting her Scottish heritage is what brought her to singing as well as Whitney Houston in The Bodyguard movie. After leaving school, she went to Melbourne to start her training. From there she spent time living and performing in London, Doha and South Korea. She's been flown from London to New Zealand to act in a commercial and she's performed on the Disney cruise ship in the Caribbean islands. And she sang backup vocals for right said Fred of 90s IMT sexy fame and was an extra in a Bollywood movie to her philosophy at that time was trying anything that she had the opportunity to, and she certainly did that. Tamara has four releases under her belt, her 2015 EP gold armor, singles Eileen and old school love and her latest release of a 10 year special remix of her track release me which is out now. Even though Tamara has seen some amazing places and traveled so widely. She credits amongst her proudest career achievements recording and producing her latest music video in her hometown of Mount Gambia, a regional town of about 28,000 people. Hope you enjoy today's episode. You'll hear tomorrow's music featured throughout thank you again for listening. The old tree welcome, Tamara, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on today. And thank you for asking me this is my first podcast. So very excited. Even more exciting. That's awesome. And when you say thanks for asking me I have I have had you in my mind for a very long time. So I'm glad we were able to make it work. Yeah, it's great. You're actually one of the first people I thought of when I was starting to do this. And I thought Who do I know and I wanted to go with a an industry I felt comfortable with. So I was just reaching out to musicians to start with them like yep, tomorrow, tomorrow. And it's funny because I messaged you and you're like, Yeah, I'm not right now. You know, whatever was going on. And then Thankfully, he messaged me recently because I forget what's the message so thanks. And life just gets in the way cuz I think when you first asked me, I can I just had Jasper and I was working on my 90s mixtape show. So I was a bit like, Yep, it's all happening. Juggling a few things. So yeah, that's the main thing. Yes. And it's wonderful, wonderful to speak to you even though we're in the same town with zoom in it today just because it's good with the kids and in life. So making it work. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry. I have the internet. Yes. So before we jump in talk about exciting things that are happening right now. I want to go back to how did you first get into music? So my answer used to be that I stumbled into music because I came from a sporting background. So my mom's side of the family were very sporty. I was very much a tomboy. But I used to sing with my dad and my dad is Scottish. And his mother was a beautiful singer. And he was actually in a BGS tribute band. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. So when they were living in while they did a few gigs, the karaoke machine still comes out at all of their, like family dues. And like, they're just amazing singers. So I sing because of my Scottish heritage. Like, that's just I do believe that that passes through. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a I just fell into it. Like, I think there's a deeper reason as to why I got into it. I really first connected with singing when I watched the bodyguard. Oh, yeah. Right. And I heard Whitney Houston sing. And I used to sing with that, but I never thought anything of it. And then I watched that, and I was like, singing her songs. And I was like, Yeah, this is pretty cool. But I didn't come from I don't come from like a stage school background. So I didn't do a Stanford's. I wasn't in a choir. So I just didn't, didn't even think that singing could be a possibility. So I just sort of would do it in my bedroom. I know that sounds cliche, but I would just, you know, sing along. And didn't think anything of it really, until I went to boarding school in Hamilton when I was 15. And they had, like a music and drama program, which wasn't, wasn't at Tennyson at the time. And a friend of mine overheard me sing and she's like, why didn't you audition? I'm like, Well, why are you got a really good voice? And I auditioned for it and just fell in love with it ever since then. So I think I was I think I was like, 15 or 16 when I had my first Singing Lesson. Yep. Yeah. But from then I was like, No, this is what I would like to do. Yeah. So it was like it. It was like an instant, like moment of oh my gosh, like, you can all this this singing that you've done your whole life. This can actually turn into something that you do in your future. Yeah, absolutely. And I think my family would get shocked because I was quite shy as a kid. And like I said, I came from that sporting background, though to then all of a sudden, like, you know, into year 12. I was like, Mom, I'm moving to Melbourne. I'm gonna have some singing lessons. I think that's what I want to do. And that's just how I got started. Yeah, right. This to me, led me me so I can stand Yeah, what happened when you move to Melbourne had it? Because I know you've you've been overseas, you've done things like gigs on cruise ships, like how did it sort of evolved from from that point on. So when I was 18, I moved to Melbourne had singing lessons. And I just practiced so hard. I was just like, I'm just loving this. And I'm actually wanting to get back to that point. Because I feel like the better you get, the further along in your career that you get, there's like, it feels like more of a job like and just because it's your passion doesn't mean that you'd love it all the time. So I just remember like, being right in the thick of just like singing to different styles and singing in different keys and just just showing up the craft, you know, without any sort of pressure or expectation. So I just did that solid for I reckon, two or three years. And then I had spent 12 months at dance world in Melbourne. Yeah, right. Yeah. Certificate no so random. They're like, Oh, this is a really good call. Most singers like it's dancing, but it's, you know, for singers, no, it was more the other way around. And I was like, way out of my depth, but I got so much out of it. And I think I'm comfortable on stage because I did that. Yeah, right. You know, you do notice that sometimes with singers that haven't had like a movement background that they can be, you know, a bit awkward. So even though I was never going to pursue dancing, I still, I feel like that's what you have to do is you just give things a go. And that all adds to how you're shaped as an artist. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yes. And then what happened? Then, then I moved back to Matt Gambia, actually. Yeah, so I was just like, broke all the time. Like I was in between, you know, doing shitty hospitality jobs. And also, I'm just going to move home for a bit and save some money. And I remember this clear as day I was at Holies, in Kmart, the Yes. And I've run into Dennis O'Carroll, who I hadn't seen in years and I went to went to school with his daughter, Chelsea. And he's like, oh, so he, you know, you've been doing a bit of singing. He's like, go to Dale Cleves, because Nick Aslan, who's in bariatric is looking for. They're looking for a new singer. And I'd never heard of heard of bass Rec. So I dropped in my my CD with it. I think it had a Christina Aguilera cover on there. And I auditioned to be in that band. Yeah. So that was what my first first paid gig. Yeah, right. Yes. Digging in that Gambia. Yeah. I remember those days, like go down and dance it away. So much fun. It was so and it was a thriving scene. Yeah, like you could not move in fine. Again. You could not move in shadows. The Gambia like, yeah, I was gigging a lot. And I think that was just such a huge learning curve because singing into in your bedroom. singing in a band. Yeah. And some of those songs were rock. So getting your voice to cut through but still using the right technique and then throw a few drunks in the mix. You know, like it's, it's and back then. People would have been able to smoke in pubs as well. So that would have been a horrible for your voice. Yeah, like not it's survived. Just like when he did he did get shadows. I think our set started at 1230 at night. Yeah. Three to four o'clock. Oh, god. Yeah, those days are long gone. That's okay. I'm not yearning for that time even though that was awesome. I'm like the thought of doing that and then having to you know deal with two toddlers not happening Sunday session by you know, finish. Finish by for six o'clock at night. Yeah. Back home for bedtime for the kids. witching hour started. God. Yes. So, how long did you spend doing like gigging you met Gambia before you moved away again. So that was, I reckon, two years. But whilst I was here, I went in my first trip overseas and my first overseas singing gig was in South Korea. Ah, so I reckon I was 21. Yeah, where I got a job in a trio singing covers six nights or six nights a week. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. How does your voice hold up during that? Like back to back to back to back? Not too bad. Yeah. I never really I'm lucky. I think if I tried to do it now, I think I would feel like I've because I was gigging a lot down here. And doing those like big pop rock songs as well. I felt like I was good fit for it. And not all of the songs were like, say your big, big numbers. They were like, you know, sometimes more like jazz ballads. So you could sort of go easy. Yeah. There was another singer as well. So it wasn't just all on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would have been good. Old school memories and nothing like the modern days. Yeah, move back to my Gambia for 12 months. And I moved to London. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I was in London for five years. Working, you know, various jobs. I worked for the Halifax Bank of Scotland. Yeah. Right. Which ended up giving me an awesome opportunity. So every year, the Halifax Bank of Scotland would recruit colleagues for their TV commercials. TV commercials, and it used to be used to be you know, they'd get them to sing. Yep. The year that I auditioned, we had to do these stunts. I actually probably should post this advert that I was in because it was an absolute incredible experience. For us, they were like, are you scared of heights? I'm like, no, like, you know, I was quite sporty and we grew up in the country. That's not a problem. Like that's a bit random that you're asking that. Ended up getting. Getting selected to be in this TV advert got flown from London to New Zealand to film this advert. Oh, wow. And my part of the scene was leaping over these massive human pillars to pass someone a five pound note. Oh, his cat, Paula Halifax. Bank of Scotland was you know, giving you extra type thing. Oh, my God. But I had to like train for this. I worked with the stunt team that worked on Australia. Then the movie with Nicole Kidman like it was a huge production. The director has then gone on to be the director for Lion the movie. That's one? Oh, yeah. Because I've worked with him before. Like, that's what it was. Exactly like it was such an incredible experience. Yeah, I feel like I've seen it. I've recognized sight like you have shared it. And I reckon I've seen it but I can't I'm you know, vaguely remembering. So you didn't get to singing it. But you got to like throw yourself for it. Yeah, how to harness on was flying through the air. It was pretty cool. Experience. Oh, it really was like, I feel like I went to London. And I feel like I probably always had this attitude. I'm just going to show up and give things a go. You know, I was in my 20s. I was like, This is what it's all about. This is what the traveling life's all about. So I was in a Bollywood music video as an extra. Yeah, I just literally signed up to everything. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Actually studied music there as well. Yeah. Which was an incredible experience. So I did a diploma in popular music and tech, music schools, I think it's called something different now. But they also have. So they had tech vocals, drums, bass guitar. And once a week you had to, you'd have to learn a song. So the singers would have to learn the song, the drummer would have to learn the song guitar player, bass player, and you had to learn the backing vocals and you just have to get up and do it. Yeah, right. Yeah, so it was, yeah, it was pretty intense. But what a what a great discipline to be prepared. Probably lacked some of that in my early my early career not like being prepared for auditions for getting my words get becoming like overly nervous. And that was like a huge learning curve. Like not you need to learn your shit. So that when you can get up there, you can nail it, and you can be confident and I think that's the key to confidence. And this is what I when I was was teaching singing why you have to practice this, you know, you have people like, Oh, don't be nervous. Just get up there. Just be confident. Well, that doesn't really know does that. I find if I'm overly nervous about something, I've it's not the right thing, or I'm not prepared for him. Because I've made that mistake before so like I still to this day, like if I've got something coming up. I have to be prepared. Otherwise, I'll just be be an absolute wreck. Yeah, I can. I can relate to that. Like I had someone asked me once if I get nervous, and I said, I only get nervous if I don't know exactly what I'm doing. Like I feel like if you know what you're doing, and I don't know if you do this, but I visualize myself in whatever space it's going to be even if I haven't necessarily been there. I can just imagine myself being on stage. And then I sort of just feel comfortable that I know where I'm gonna be. I know what I'm doing. And so then there's really no need to feel nervous, you know, like, and that's not a conceited or an ego thing, but it's like, you know, your voice, you know what you're doing? You know? Yeah. So, yeah, but then I've heard other people say, are you if you're not nervous, it means it's not important enough to you? And it's like, well, I don't know about that, either. Because? I don't know. So yeah, I think you can channel nerve like it. I think it's normal to be nervous, but you're excited about it. Yeah. But this my moment, because I'm prepared. I've put in the work. I love to do this. And all I have to do now is be in the moment and enjoy it. Because if I'm enjoying it, everyone else is like, there's nothing worse than seeing another performer suffer on stage. And you can see it. Oh, yeah. Yes, yeah. Horrible. Because you know what that's like, you know, so it's, um, yeah, and it doesn't. And for me, it doesn't actually matter what the size of the gig is. Yeah. Yep. It's just what I have to put in place. So I can enjoy it. So I'm not an absolute, you know, nervous wreck, yeah. I'm gonna follow the slide. So we'll come back to you. other bits and bobs that you've done. But I want to ask that putting things in place. Now, as a mom of two. That would also be who's gonna look after the kids? And how am I going to rehearse when I've got two kids? Like, all that sort of stuff? Adds a massive new element to it, doesn't it? massive new element. But I think being a musician and artists, I can practice around them. Is it easy? No, it is not. You get to grab the moments when they're there. But yeah, I just do my best to work around them. I also don't get this right all the time. But I try to not have the old tomorrow head on. Like our before kids, I was able to work at this pace. I think that's where, you know, I can become undone. I think other mums can come undone as well because they're trying to perform at a level before motherhood. And it's pretty much an impossible task because your life is different. Yeah. And I'm not saying you can't still do what you love to do. And I think you need that to be you know, a good mom. I feel like I'm a better mom when I sing when I've got like side projects. I feel like I'm and I love that I can include my kids as well. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because quite often they'll come into band practices. I remember when they I can Jasper was four months old and Marie and I were practicing my 90s mixtape and or doing the chorus medley at the end, which was like 20 courses back to back in one song. The last songs absolutely everybody by Vanessa amorosi. And yeah, singing that note at the end. I'm breastfeeding Jasper at this time, like doing all the like, oh my gosh, but I actually felt really empowered. I'm like, I can do this. Yeah, it just is showing up differently. And that's okay. And not putting those, like you said, comparing yourself to the life you had before. So I feel like that just it just makes you feel bad or guilty or something. It's like there's no point trying to drag yourself back into that space. Absolutely. There's no going back whether you decide to be a mom or not. There's no going back, but how I feel like there's so many people that are so attached to their old life. Instead of embracing what's happening now and being in the moment now. Like I'm not, I'm not, you know, 25 in London anymore. I'm not, you know, seeing on a cruise ship anymore. I don't want to do that either. Because I have done that that chapter of my life was bloody awesome. But then you tapped out you The music's different now. And I'm showing up in a different way now, but I think that's exciting instead of being a I'm not my old self wasn't a man before. Yeah, I am. That's a great way to look at it. That is a great way to look at it some holidays down by the drink and lemon jello, making promises we won't. So you mentioned the cruise ships there. Let's have a quick chat about what you were doing and how long you were doing it for. Yep. So when I was living in London, I auditioned to be a lead singer in a band on Disney for Disney Cruise Line. Yeah. So I got so I got the I got the gig. And I spent three months traveling around the Caribbean. It was terrible. Would have been raining the whole time? No sunshine. Best and after that. A bit. Mean amazing. Yeah, it really was. And that was yeah, a huge learning curve, because it was Thursday night. So sometimes it was, you know, Motown jazz. We did one set a week in front of the goofy pool, and we'd perform with the Disney characters or Magica days we die. Allison, it was like, the joy on everyone's faces. And you would you know, get lost in the moment as well. It was. Yeah, it was a really, really good gig. Yeah. Though, living on the ship is not my cup of tea. I think I always knew that. But I was like, I want to do this once. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad I did it. But now I want to be living on the land. Not mindspace. Not in a cabin right down the bottom with no windows. Oh, oh, that'd be hard. Like did you get do you get seasick or like, queasy down there did a couple of times when it was rough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But in the Caribbean are pretty calm. So it wasn't too bad. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't take a job like that if you suffered from. I can just imagine, like, I get pretty seasick as it is. But if you were down somewhere with no window, I recommended just do your heading. You just feel like you're in a box. That was the worst, I would say. Like, quite often. I'm just going up to the top deck. I just need some sunlight. Yes, not. Not great. Yeah. Oh, there you go. So sorry. How long did you do that for? You said three months? Yeah, right. Oh, that would have been amazing. Yeah. It's so good that you've got all these wonderful experiences you can look back on and just like you said, you can say that was amazing. I'm not doing that. Now. I've moved on life. But you've got all these awesome things and all these stories. I can that's so cool. Oh, love it. And I guess you would have probably learnt heaps like working with different people along the way to like picking up things from different musicians and, you know, just keeping them in your back pocket for next time sort of thing. Absolutely. I actually think it's a great masterclass for songwriting. Yeah. Right. You know, cuz you watch what the audience get into. So like, when does that when, you know, a song lifts or certain hooks and phrasing and styles, like just all those types of things? I find some, you know, in the singer songwriters really turned their nose down, you know, have a band singers, but I think, how are you meant to learn? If you don't try every flavor of ice cream, you know? And, you know, doing cover gigs? You do you have to sometimes sing songs you don't necessarily like sometimes you quite often will find songs that you really like and connect with that you didn't? Didn't think you would. So I actually think it was. Yeah, an amazing experience to do that. Yeah. Do you find that? I mean, this is my personal experience that I think the best way that I've learned my, what my voice can do and my range and what I'm capable of is singing other people's songs because I wouldn't write songs, like the other people that I sing their music, you know what I mean? So it's actually been really useful to be singing lots of songs over many years to sort of see what you can do and learn where you can push yourself and where you can learn more. Absolutely, and I I have loved doing that because I like I said, I love like Whitney, Mariah I'd never change the, like, I probably sound like a, you know, animal in the paddock that's practicing it. But how are you meant to know what you're capable of if you don't go there? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I runs Oh, how do you you know, seeing that height? Because I let myself go there and practice that. Yeah. You know, I mean, everyone's voices are different, like, I don't have a low voice. Like, I probably wouldn't ever tackle like a Tracy Chapman song in the original key because it you know, I just can't sing that low. So I think that's what makes us all you know, special and unique. That's the beauty Beauty and the voice, you know that everyone has different, you know, colors and textures and sounds and yeah, I love Yeah, absolutely. And I, I know, there's like, no, like, you talk about that sort of stigma of being a cover singer. But I don't know people. People love hearing songs that they know. And this is something I've struggled with placing original songs in sets over the years because people love and I do it too. When I go out. I love to hear some unknown, you know, tap a foot and sing along. So this this, people should stop bagging it. They probably love it too. Exactly. Like, I'm not ashamed to say that I'm, you know, my guilty pleasures are power ballads. Yeah. I went to say Celine Dion in Vegas. It was amazing. Yeah, right would have been pretty special. Do you know what you're not just one thing? Yeah. Oh, that's exciting thing, you know, with being a singer that you can decide what you want to do like you can. And I've seen that with the work that you do. You can sing on dance tracks, you can do jazz, you can do folk, you can do acoustic, you can do whatever the hell you want to do. Yep, that's it, isn't it? That's why sometimes hate that question. Who are you as an artist? Well, I don't, you're huge. I mean, yeah. Sometimes I want to sing this. And sometimes I want to sing that. And it's like, I don't like I don't think I'd put out an album that like the first song was a you know, it was death metal. And then it was a power ballad. Like, I think that would be a bit confused. But I'm just, I'm not into those labels. I've actually gotten less and less keen on, like labeling genres. And to the point where I'll start putting myself in competition. So as I want to know what your genre is, like, I can't tell you I just It depends what mood I'm in. But I feel I'm working with and you know, I know that sort of, say it's very restrictive. I wish there was less less of that sort of talk in the industry, but they've got an eye. It's like, they've got to work out how to deal with you. They've got to know what you do. And it's easy for them if they can pigeonhole you into something. And why do they need to know how old you are? Ya got you? Yes, yes. Yeah. I think the I think it's getting better. yet. I found like, you know, I when I was in Melbourne I can't remember what audition it was and I was like 18 or 19 Oh, no, you're too old for that. Oh, Lord. Oh my god. So young and I believed it for a long time. So I never really took myself like that seriously cuz I just thought like I'm never probably going to have a career in it because you clearly have to be to to get signed. It's bizarre what does it matter love has changed. Me You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I listen. I think the older you get, the more life experience you have. And I've know personally, the better songwriting I'm doing as I get older. I think even since I've had kids, it's like this whole new perspective on your life. And it's so much richer, you know, and to be able to reflect on that and but they want us all to be young and I don't know single and not have kids and but that's mainstream say Eric and the amount of people I've talked to in the indie indie world. No one gives a shit like people, people if you've got a good song and you like people like what you're what you're putting out there. That's all that matters. And I feel like a lot of people, people that I to talk to anyway I just really not even bothering with mainstream stuff not even trying to knock down those doors. Because it's just the first thing. How old are you? They see you're a woman. Have you got kids? Like, that's the interview? Yeah, it's, yeah. And there's no point even like trying to go there. Like, I'm not trying to be the next Teen sensation to appeal to a younger audience, because there's actually some really amazing young artists coming through that are tapping into that market beautifully. Let them own that. I just think there's, you know, enough room for all of us. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I need to be pegged up against each other. Yeah. We all have, you know, different stories to tell. Different songs to put out there. That can't really you can't compare it. Because they're not the same, you know? Yeah. Let's hear. So I just, yeah, I, it doesn't that doesn't bother me anymore. But it really did back then. And because I was so young when now. I don't I don't care. Yeah. Yeah, no. Heat. I think if I'm authentic to myself, and I'm proud of the work that I'm putting out there. And I get to work with all the amazing people in this community. And in you know, in the in the music world that I've connected with tech, you've already won. Could you proud of that? Yeah, that's a garment. You know, the followers the views? Yeah. Yeah. You could get 10,000 views on my YouTube. Yeah. It's it's a funny one. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. So you're talking about songwriting. I want to talk to you about when did you start start writing your own songs? When I was studying in London, yeah. Right. So you know, we would take songwriting classes there, we perform original songs. Then I sort of stopped because I was getting quite a lot of, you know, cover band work. And that's when I went, you know, on the Disney ship. And from the Disney ship. I got a job seeing in the Middle East. Ah, that's was that Doha? Yes. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yep. So I got a job seeing six nights a week with that same band that I worked with on the on the Disney cruise ship. Yeah. At the Intercontinental Hotel in in Doha. Yeah. Right. And we were one of the first western bands there. Oh, wow. So like, we were treated like rock stars. Like that was my rock star moment. Oh, cool. Yeah, it was so cool. was so two weeks into the gig. They had the Big Day Out festival. On the beach. They had like home staying top loader. Like got in like a couple of other big bands. I can't remember off the top of my head. But it was like this massive Festival on the beach and like, Oh, can you open up for them? And we're like oh my god. It was just like a scene from a movie. Like it was just like, huge budget massive stage. Big audience. Like the sound was epic. It was just hot, balmy weather on the beach. I'm like, this is a vibe. Oh, man. Come home from what you learn to being in this industry. It's not all highs. Yeah, yeah. And it's very easy to fall into the trap and I'm guilty of it. of always wanting that feeling. Always wanting that high. And it's nice not like that. And it's not all about those big gigs. You know, I've done gigs where like literally playing to nobody tables and chairs. Singing everybody oh wait, there's no one there. You know, like it's just yeah. But you know, it makes you appreciate when you do get opportunities like that because they're not all you know, The showstoppers. Yeah, let's see. And that's, and that's okay. Because it's about it. This is what I've learned since having kids is enjoying the process more. Recently, did a music video and remix of my first single release me, it's gonna ask you about that. Let's talk about that now. Yeah, so I wrote that in Doha. That's, that was my first song I'd ever written, released. I was 28. Yeah, right. I was like, I've got to push myself here. You know, I've been doing this this cover band gig for a while, which I've enjoyed, but I wanted to challenge myself and the opportunity to work with a producer there. Came up and then a friend of mine who, who is a videographer, just out of the blue said, are you working on any originals? I might well, actually, I do want to shoot a music video. Sure. Um, and I think from that moment, I'm like, Oh, I really want to explore songwriting more, I really want to, you know, go down this path. Yeah. So when you were writing at that point, what was Where were you drawing your inspiration from as compared to now? I guess. So that's that song's about that's heartbreak. It's a ballad. It's about you know, an old find having a hold on your heart. So it was sort of weird singing it now. I'm happily married. I've got two kids. Like, life's cool. Live in Gambia. Very different to, you know, what I was going through at the time. But you can always put that hat back on, even if you're in that place. I don't know if you find that, Allison. Yes. And I think there's something beautiful about that type of vulnerability like that heartbreak. I think that's why people bloody love Adele. She's willing to go there. Yeah. And it's just so beautiful to you know, hear that vulnerability in music like I really connect with, with songs like that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I wanted to strip that song back a bit more as well. Yeah, congratulations on that. When I heard it. For the first time. I just thought, Oh, this is lovely. Because I actually listened to the original few days before I was driving at drive to Rome. And I thought, let's listen to the original just to prepare myself for for the change. And it's beautiful to our congratulations. Thank you, hopefully. And yeah, you talked about your film clip. Tell us about that. Because that is amazing. I'm gonna put a link to that in your show notes because people need to see this. It's a piece of art basically. It's DEVAR. Thank you. You know, it was a team effort. Yeah. You know, like my sister in law had that beautiful Roberto Cavalli game gown hanging you know, like, you know, so lucky to that was a, you know, an art piece that suited the venue. Unlike these dress and the venue belong together. You could not have done it any more perfectly seriously. It's just incredible. Yeah, and to film it. Yeah. Have you ever been to Yellin Park? I haven't actually ever been there. No. Didn't go. So Young Park is just outside of Panola it is one of I think it's Australia's best preserved Victorian home. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Let me rephrase that mansion. Yes. Absolutely spectacular. You know, the old piano, the furniture, the original wallpaper. That staircase with the stained glass window. Like it was just you feel the magic when you when you walk in there? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, because homes aren't built like that anymore. So just to, you know, feel like you're stepping back in time and like to do that down here is really important to me, because I always thought like, I don't know if I could ever live, you know, in Mount Gambier again, is this going to fill me enough because I, you know, lived in London and traveled a lot but it's actually been the best thing for me to be able to, like work with the people that I've been been able to work with in that time. But we're so lucky down here. Like, we don't have to go to the city. Sometimes you do. And you have to source that work outside of the community. But we're just so lucky. Yeah, there are some seriously talented people you won't get. Like, just, yeah, you don't have to go far to find someone that's got a skill that can help you with something fun. Like, you know, I've worked with Katy Fox, but yes, like, she's just so beautiful. And like, she's just so much fun on set. And we just have a laugh. And yeah, it was just yeah, really special to, to do that with all my, my favorite creative. Yeah, yeah, that's really nice. I've often thought of that, like, you think are now I've got kids, I can't go away and record in Melbourne for two weeks non stop, you know, all this sort of stuff. And you sort of think, yeah, it's actually you feel really proud when you do something down here. Because it's like almost saying, you know, and up yours to people that think you have to leave a small town to achieve things. You don't? You really don't look, logistically, is it a bit challenging? Like, I'm thinking off? I'm going to do a tour at some point. What's that gonna look like? But you can still make it happen. And I think sometimes making it happen in your own small way. It's not about you trying to be the biggest and the bestest, you know? Yeah, yeah, it's like what's achievable in your world, and it may not look like what it is for somebody else. But that's another thing that I've been talking before about, as you get older, not worrying so much about stuff. And like, I used to be really competitive, like think, Oh, someone's doing that, oh, I wish I could do that. In my 20s. And now it's like, well, good on them. Like you actually look at someone and appreciate what they've done and what they're doing. And it's it's a really great way to be because you're just, I know, you're not caught up in, you know, all this, especially on this on social media with all the things you see from people. But you can sort of just, you know, I can't remember where I was going with this. I've gotten there now. And I can't remember what my point was at the start of it. Might come back to me, but yeah, basically. Oh, yeah. Ego. You see, I've got to do this, too, in this way. Because such and such did this way. And this is how people expect you to do a tour but it's like no, actually break it down. What's worked for me, my family, my location, and just don't worry about what people think. Because it matters what you think. You have to live with you at the end of the day. Yeah. And why you go down a path that's not authentic to you. That's going to actually make you probably end up hating music, because you're not staying true to who you are. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you know, we're there. You know, we live in a society that's obsessed with busy and being hustled hard and do this and you want to, you know, like pulling you in, in directions that actually, you don't want to go. But that's, you know, what I've realized, especially since having kids I'm in the driver's seat here, I get to decide not people pulling me in other directions of where I you know, want to go Yeah, that's incredibly empowering. Isn't it? Really is like, you know, you don't have to be signed anymore. We have the internet so even though that's you know, with the streaming and making money's a little bit more challenging but your reach is absolutely endless so there's so many there's so many positives Yep. Yeah stands at the desk I want to take you on down different path. about this topic we have I love to talk to my guests about the Old Faithful mum guilt, which is something that it's an interesting one because I've had I think I haven't had two guests who genuinely didn't know what it was. And I thought this is amazing actually had one had to google it. And when asked me to explain it, and that that's all well and truly in the minority but yes, it is awesome. And there should be more like it going on. But yeah, share your thoughts what you think about monkey monkey. Mom guilt is very real. I've definitely experienced it. Do I believe in it? I don't I think it's toxic. Why would we should be shaming moms for taking time away from their family? To do something that they love to do? Or to go for a walk down the street? Or where are your kids? I can have time away from my kids, you know, but you don't say that to their father. Tell me about it. Why it's such Dustin is it really is. I feel guilty. If I'm feeling stressed about something and I take it out. And my kids, if I'm a bit short with them, that's when I feel bad. I'm you let them down in that way. But I don't feel I don't feel bad about being creative. I include my kids in that. I share my music with them. How is that a bad thing? I think it's just another layer of making moms feel like shit, putting them up on this ridiculous pedestal of trying to be absolutely everything to everybody. And it's an impossible standard to keep. And men are drowning because of it. Yeah, you know, it's Yeah, so I do feel it. It is there. But I don't spend much time going down that path because I don't genuinely believe in mom guilt. It's fair on mums. Yeah, that's so well said. It's like it is it is. It's like a thing that someone came up with, just to add another layer of you know, we don't feel bad enough about things. So let's just put something else on to moms. Yeah. It's horrible. It is horrible. It really good on you for fighting against it. Because it's crap. I think a lot a lot, a lot of women and a lot of mothers are speaking out about it in that way as well. Like, this is BS, it is. Why, why should I feel bad? It doesn't make any sense now. And like you said earlier, it actually helps you be a better person. And therefore a better mother, when you are being creative and your own needs are being met. It just, it sends you out in the world in a different headspace. Absolutely, and how cool that I get to share this with my sons. You know, motherhood and being creative can exist together doesn't have to be one or the other. And our kids are here to teach us a lesson or to look at their imagination. Look at them just being present in the moment. They're not going, Ah, I've got to go the supermarket by this time, and I've got to do this, I've got to do that there's something so special about being around young children. Oh, I totally agree with that, is I spend my days working in a kindergarten and it's just, it really humbles you. It's like, all the stuff that you thought in the world was I mean, it is some stuff is bad, but you know, the stuffs on your mind, like the trivial things. And then you've got a child who's looking at a leaf, and just studying the veins on the leaf. And it's just like, Ah, okay, right, get back to basics. You know, it just really brings you back down to earth. Absolutely. And it's, you know, it's about making big things out of the small things. It's not about this, you know, unachievable goal that's put that like that we're being fed this narrative that, oh, if you wake up at this time, and if you eat this food, and if you do this, if you do that, if you do that, and it's like, by the time I get through that bloody list over the last 24 hours, yeah, yeah. And if you read another list, it would be conflicting, it'd say, Don't eat that before such and such but do this before and it's just like, hello, we have to actually live our lives. Yes, on that as well. Like it's too much. We are consuming content at a rapid rate. We need to have those output days where we're just, you know, playing around on a keyboard writing a song right, you know, playing outside with our kids without being Oh, someone so said this on Instagram and I'm just going to watch this video. I'm just going to do this. I'm just going to do that and you're just not being in the moment and I think there's a huge disconnect in society. because it is. Yeah, I can the biggest scary thing for me is the, the like this tick tock era where the what's the word concentration spans are being shortened? Because you fed this information and it turns over so quick. So I see the mind kids, it's like they'll watch half of a, there's like a big long video, maybe I'd know half an hour and they'll only watch like 10 minutes and then decide they don't like that anymore. It's like, hang on, what about the rest of it? And like, be an hour day you're watching the television. That was all you had to watch channel eight, and ABC and you create a connection? Yes, good. Oh, gotcha connection. You know, it's like, they just they expect to have more and more and different and different constantly asked them, you know, and it's like, no, no, no, we have to stop this to scary. And now you know, artists are writing songs for Tik Tok. They're not even writing whole. Bloody Kylie Minogue. Did you see what she's done? I don't think she's even released her latest song, she's just put it out on Tik Tok, and basically got people to make a dance out of it. So that's what's getting the track viral is because they're all doing this dance. It's like she knows how to run the show. You don't need a record label anymore. You just say tick tock account online. And that's why it's important. I think as an artist to like I've said before, write songs that you're proud of. That you can connect to. Because what's going to be the next trend? I can't go there. I'm not gonna write a song for Tik Tok. I'm not gonna write a song in a you know, in hoping that it's gonna go viral. I can't go there. Yeah, you know if I can be vulnerable, authentic, like, I love writing about the human experience. You know, love loss, adversity, being brave that type of thing. I know that that story, those stories connect with other people because I've been through it as well. Yeah. So you know, I'm willing to dabble production wise do something a bit different. But I'm not I think yes, you're chasing your tail if you're trying to write songs just because this is you know, tic TOCs the latest thing or Instagram or do this do that? Like I think that's not gonna that's not an enjoyable process. Yeah, I was actually going to say that it did start to feel more like a chore and a job. And it's not meeting that the need that you have to express what you need to express, you know, yeah, so yeah. I don't even have I don't even have a tic tock account. I don't even want to go there. It's just I'll just find out have you Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to use other major rookie here. Oh, goodness way. Change there was a quote that you had on your Facebook recently, and you said that, that it spoke like the process had sparked your creativity. And it was something that you thought was gone since having your kids so have you? Have you basically put this aside for How old's your oldest sorry, I haven't asked how old he So Max is three and a half and Jasper's Yeah, right. So for the past three and a half years have you done anything for yourself with your music? Not a lot. So that's why I was really nervous to put this out like I really enjoyed the process of you know, doing this remix during the video. But then when it came for the launch, I'm like I'm freaking out here. Like I haven't been in this headspace for Ohio have been you know, my mode so it was it was a challenge for me to do it. I wouldn't say that that was a walk in the park. You know because we all had plenty gastro two weeks before the release and all this shit basically literally. All this is so hard to try and do both. It's just feels like such an impossible task. But I was just had to keep reminding myself. You can only do your best you can do come and quiet the mind because there's so little but yeah, it was was a challenge. But I was also refreshing as well as well. I've needed this, huh? Yes, yeah, yeah. Because you like since you were 15 music has been pretty much your life. So then to have that big break from it that would have liked did you have times during that time where you're like, Oh, I really feel like I have to get back to it or like what was going through your mind at times. I made the point though, of always having a little project. So I'm was not back doing gigs to what I was doing previously. And at the moment, I'm not either and that is totally fine. But like always. Oh, my kids are back on that ground. Reality Check. When I fell pregnant with Max, I still had my mobile caravan business limoncello caravan bar, which was still operating. I had staff that would work in the van for me. And he was four months old. And I did the band Christmas show. I did a limoncello caravan bar cocktail Christmas party. So I I knew I could do two gigs. Right. I just made sure that I had a couple of little projects in the pipeline. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that has helped because if I didn't do that, well COVID kicked off in March. Yeah, yeah. And then I fell pregnant with Jasper in the June halfway through COVID. Yep. And then what I was working on my 90s mixtape, so we did that the part of the 2018 Matt Gander in Adelaide fringe. And we performed that again, but that I reckon that got Reese Yeah, that got rescheduled. Yeah, right. COVID. Yeah. A week. And then we finally did it again last year. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, that was a long time goes by how much time has gone by Don't ya like Oh, my God isn't work. It's so funny though. Having kids in COVID Because we're like, Oh, how's how's your child going? I'm like, which one? They're like, did you have another one? I'm like, yeah. What else? Gotta keep busy somehow. Otherwise Oh, that's classic. Oh, that's so funny each and every day the distance the time is all we need your brain makes of release me is out. What do you see the cup coming up? Have you got anything sort of happening in your brain? Like, I want to do this and what indeed there are lots of things. That's the like I've, I've always been like this, like, going back to childhood like my imagination is wild. And Nick can tell when I'm off on one because it's like I'm talking to myself is that we're used to thinking something or doing something. I'm like, Yeah, I was I just go into this. This other world? Yeah. So on. Yeah. Got a few ideas in the pipeline. Yep. But I don't want to say what I'm going to do because it's very early stage. That's okay. You don't have to tell me all your secrets. I would like to drop a single by the end of the year, but if that happened, that's okay. The songs got to be right. Anyway, so I've started you know, penning a few ideas down so yeah, we'll just see what happens. Oh, good Anya, and yet look honestly, when I saw what you were wearing, and that the location for your film clip I was like, oh my god, like you could seriously not have found two more perfect things to put together like that dress. Oh my gosh, like did you feel like like, I don't know, like a goddess or something you met Jessica is it bloody hell? You look good. Like, I felt like a million bucks because like, you know, I've been in nursing tops, sweatpants. Rock Mumbai, been for the past two years like, actually not The cameras have my hair and makeup done. I'm like is this is what I needed at this moment in time? So like kickstarted, like you said, it's kickstarted that creativity. And now it's like the balls rolling and all these things are happening in your mind. It's exciting, isn't it? It is. But then it's like I'm dealing with two toddlers at the moment. So they, yeah, that's sort of stealing the show. Might be able to feature them in the next film clip just for a second. Yeah. Well, Maxis in one of my film clips. Oh, I see. Yeah. And I was pregnant with Jasper as well. So did you see Eileen? The Tribute? I did to my grandfather? I did. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Oh, I mean, like, my kids and family are a part of my music. Sound legacy and how bloody cool is that? Yeah. I love that. Like mom said to me, probably the best thing you'll ever do is sing with the kids. And at the time, I was probably quite young. I was that. Oh, really? And then I'm like, nah, this is cool. I call that I can cue on this journey. And like Max's like, Oh, mommy, you're gonna go singing now. And I want to come and see me is that as well as being their mom? is super cool. Oh, yeah. I feel like that is for me personally. That's where I find the most pride I think that they can see that their mother is not the mother still, Allison is still their own person, like mom still May. And and my life does not exist to solely do one. You know, role. I do all these other things. And I love that the kids know that. I think it's so important for like, I say feminism moving forward. But it's, it's I think it's really important for them to get that that women just because they have children. Does it make them obsolete in our society? Absolutely. And that's inspiring. And that success. You're allowed to say that. I feel like you can't say, oh, I love I love being a mom like I really do. Like I absolutely love it. Am I perfect? No. exist. Like and you know what? I don't want my kids to think that I'm perfect. So if I'm, you know, get a bit totally at them because they've you know, spilled my my load down the wall or put a golf club through the TV, like, and I get it across about it. Yeah. I apologize and go oh, sorry, I did get a B cross. Because we're all human. We're not perfect. I don't want to be put up on that pedestal. Yeah. Yep. So feel like you're sending your kids out with unrealistic, unrealistic expectations of what you know, relationships are and what you can expect from other people. That's like, we are actually allowed to get shitty and annoyed at each other feel these emotions, you're allowed to feel this stuff? I don't know. I feel like the previous like, when I was a kid, you know, you wouldn't see your parents in these ways of expressing themselves. They were just mom and dad. And they didn't know anything else about what they did. But, you know, I want my kids to know that I'm a full whole person with all these other elements to me. And I love you, regardless of what you show me. Yeah. You're angry. That's okay. I want you to come to me. My doors always open ask me anything. Yeah, I was by far the, you know, perfect teenager. I get it. Man that got the t shirt. You know, like, I don't? Yeah, I don't want them to strive for perfection. And I, I don't either. You know, how many moms are trying to be the perfect mom? Yeah. There's a really good Carrie. Oh, it is. And I had an episode with Sophie Brock, who's a Dr. Sophie Brock, who's a motherhood sociologist. And she said, the perfect mother myth, like the perfect mother does not exist, because there's an exercise she gets you to where you write down all the things that you think makes up a perfect mother and putting that in air quotes. And you'd when you look at that, and you read that back, it, that person cannot physically exist. But you know, we're all told we're meant to do these things and be certain ways and behave this and don't do that and make sure you do that. So what the hell. Well, you know what I hate, especially from people that don't have kids. Well, you chose to be a mom, or Yeah, yeah. No. It's like you're allowed to complain about your office job. Yeah. Like, you two feelings can exist at the same time. Mike, I'm grateful but also you're doing my bloody head in I'm sick of cleaning up all this food off the floor. This mess is making me feel good. overwhelmed and overstimulated, we're allowed to have these honest conversations. Yeah, you're allowed to say that. It's hard because it bloody is. Yeah. Yeah. But also, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Like when you meet your child for the first time, like, how could I love something so much? Yeah, I experienced this before, you know. It's at all look that ambivalence that two thoughts at the same time that are both true is one something I find incredibly fascinating about being a mum. Like, I'd be like, Oh, geez, I could I could literally throw myself in front of a moving car to save your life. But could you just eat your bloody tea? Please? Stop it's you're at an eight you're totally extremes. It just it contains. It really is. Oh, man. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. The sorries we begin. Yeah, if you got anything else you wanted to share before I let you go because I'm conscious. We're rolling on to the witching hour. So screaming in the background, clearly someone's hungry. So I'm obsessed with flamingos. I love them. Ah, that's a lovely mug. And I found this amazing quote on Instagram about flamingos and I want to share with you just beautiful. So flamingos lose their pink when they're raising their babies. Because it's such an intense process. Eventually it comes back. If you're deep in postpartum motherhood right now, Mama, remember you will get your pink bag. Oh, I love that. Oh, yeah. Like, when you said that? Oh, but it's so true. Like it's actually okay. To surrender to to motherhood and being that because it is so full on you don't have to, you know, try and still have a full time career like it's, it's okay. Yeah, yes, you know, you and you will get your shine your shine back. Just to tell our listeners what you're wearing. I'm wearing a sequin bomber jacket. Yeah, that's serious. And like, yeah, being patient and knowing that time. Yeah, you know, we move through life and people get older. And I love people who say that the seasons change. You know, I'm in a different season in my life. Now. It's like, yeah, and sometimes it's hard to do that, you know, to, to go Oh, but I remember this. And I remember that. And it's okay to give yourself a break, you know, and, yeah, you Pinkel. I think art is better for it. Sometimes when you take a break. Why are we talking about this enough? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The stillness, that your priorities do change. Doesn't mean it's lost forever. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Could you say some good things. I'm gonna have sandy quotes, but that Flamingo one isn't mine. I stole that one. That's okay. But you said it today. So that's cool. Like, I feel like as a mom, we're holding on to a lot of shame that's not necessary. Like pursuing our creative dreams. We're also carrying on like, these old stories and old narratives that don't that don't serve us. I think it's, you know, when sometimes they just shatter a legacy that's holding us back. That and that that's, you know, belief system. Doesn't doesn't work for me. And it's okay for me to and what's important is to do what's right for my family. And that might not be what some someone else would do, but that's okay. And I think you have to be comfortable in that, because everyone's got an opinion. Everyone will tell you what they think. And you know, especially, you know, I look at my grandmother's generation, they lived in a different time, of course, they're gonna have a different perspective on what motherhood should be or what life should be. Some of those values are amazing, but some of them don't hold up in, in modern society. So it's really important to stay in your lane, and to be comfortable in the choices that you make as a family. Yeah. You know, my kids feel loved. They're seeing, they're heard. They're happy, my husband's happy. I'm happy. Yeah. You know, that's the main thing. Yeah. That is, that is awesome. Yeah, I saw I saw a quote the other day, sort of similar to that, like, I'm not going to get this wrong, I'm going off by heart, but I can't remember was something about how were the really the first generation of mothers who have got this, this thing coming out and saying, Oh, you can do it, or you can do this, you could do that. So that, that sort of post feminist movement of that, you can do it all. But then our mothers didn't do it all, they probably had jobs, and then stopped working to have kids. And now we're at this point where we do want to express ourselves, and we do want to do other things apart from the mothering role. So we're just caught in limbo of how like, I don't wanna say, how do you get it right? Because I don't think you ever get it. Right. But how do you make it work? You know, like you were saying, like, for your family, and it's really hard not to look around and seeing what other people are doing listening to other voices. It's like, put your blinkers on and just do what works for you. Like you said, Stay in your lane. And if you if you're all happy, then that's all that matters. Absolutely. Yeah. Because you're always gonna feel that pool. Like how often do you hear or backing, backing out? And we didn't do this? Yeah, there was a different life completely different circumstances. Absolutely. And I want to make sure that when my kids, especially when they're a bit older, that I'm up to speed with what's going on in schooling. They're living through a different time than I did as a child. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important. Not projecting your experience onto your kids. Like our parents did. Like, you know, my my parents parents did. Yeah, some of those values were good, but some of those things are not. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. That is a really good way to put it get that baby thank you so much for coming on tomorrow. I love chatting with you to save me. It's been lovely. It's nice to actually have a conversation because we always see each other in passing at gigs and shows and things. It's lovely to sit down and chat with you. And thank you for sharing on thanks for having me. Like this was such a safe space to have very, you know, a very open conversation. I've never done a podcast before, like, natural you have to do more of them. But I didn't you know you make it made me feel comfortable. Or Thank you. I appreciate that. And I do you know, follow your podcast and you've done a really good job to be proud of it. Oh, thank you. That's so nice of you to say. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes.

Jennifer Donohue Irish painter and writer S3 Ep92 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week Im pleased to welcome Jennifer Donohue to the podcast, Jennifer is an painter and writer from County Clare in Ireland and a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid-20s working in print journalism before returning to college to get a degree in Marketing and Management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created art. Although she loved the act of painting, loved trying to create pretty work and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness, it was lacking in something and it wasn’t until she started back writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. Once she began writing more often, a funny thing happened – she began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there, emerged the new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in paint - and a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poem/prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood - the love, the grief, the loss, the happiness, and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through land and seascapes, botanical art and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked deeper meaning in her art and she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. **This episode contains discussion around pregnancy loss, miscarriage and grief** Jennifer - Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Apologies for my voice at the moment. I'm just cut recovering from a bout of pneumonia coupled with COVID-19 diagnosis. So things have been fun lately, but I am getting there. And I'm pleased to be able to bring this episode to you today. This week. I welcome Jennifer Donahue to the podcast. Jennifer is a painter and a writer from County Clare in Ireland and she's a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid 20s working in print journalism, before returning to college to get a degree in marketing and management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created her art. Although she loves the act of painting, love trying to create pretty work, and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness. It was lacking in something. It wasn't until she started writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. When she began writing more often a funny thing happened. She began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there emerged a new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to Canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in the paint. And a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poems and prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood, the love, the grief, the loss, and the happiness and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through landscapes, and seascapes, botanical art, and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked a deeper meaning in her art. And she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. Please be aware that this episode today contains discussion around pregnancy loss and miscarriage and grief. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Jennifer. It's really lovely to meet you. Yes, and thanks so much for having me. I'm very excited. It's my pleasure. And I've got to say I'm very very grateful of all the sharing of posts and and things that you do with my podcast on Instagram. I really appreciate it very much. Oh, no budget at all, I think well, I look as I said at dinner I love listen to podcasts and you know, some of the guests you've had on are absolutely amazing, amazing women. I mean, you know, these are definitely stories, you know, you want to share out and the little share on Instagram, you know when you can I mean? All of it helps as much ya know. And honestly, it means so much like I don't know, I think yeah, I don't know. It can seem so simple but it makes such a difference and I'm really appreciate it so thank you for that. So we were just I was just saying before I hit record how much I love your your Irish accent. Thanks very much. Tell me about where you're from in Ireland. Yeah, so I live in County Clare. So a little town called Ennis though it's about 10 Tails. It's the biggest town and clear but it's only about 10 15,000 people. So by Australian Standard is Like teeny teeny tiny place. But so if anybody you know, maybe your side of the world might be familiar with like the Cliffs of Moher, maybe you might have heard of that. Yeah, glyphs. Evolver is in County Clare. So that's maybe about 30 minutes from where I live. And originally, Originally, I'm from West Limerick, which is about an hour's drive south of here. Yeah, right. I've been in this for 10 years. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's actually there was a horse that came out here for the Melbourne Cup one year called cliffs have more. I'm saying it right. But yeah, so yeah, I said that. I just went, Oh, yeah, I know that name. Yeah. So yeah, a lot. A lot of people who don't? They've heard it before. So it's kind of a good landmark to give people an idea. It's, it's on the west coast of the country. Yeah. Right. Are you very north, or we're about sort of a year. So no, were very kind of nearly middle of the country. And kind of the rest of us. Yeah, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I'm getting getting good visual. Somewhere. I'd really love to go. I think I watched a lot of Father Ted many years. Oh, yeah. And I just did you get did you get? Did you get to did you get to humor? Oh, you've watched? I've watched five to 10 Australians and you're like, watch this. No, I loved it. I absolute because I was a fan of auto auto handling and been a fan of him for a while. And just like anything he does, I just I just laugh at him. I just think he's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's that other show I did was like Inferno man or third semi man or something. And it was just so ridiculous. But so funny. But now we've got this running joke. Now. You know, the episode where the heat. Ted has to keep Bishop Brennan up the ass. Oh, yeah. Bridget printed up the arse. And we have this joke. Now, if anyone gets kicked on the bottom, my little son who's seven you go, Oh, he's Bishop Brennan is good or bad. But it's very funny. hilarious. Hilarious. So yeah. Anyway, enough of that I could go on and on, but I'm not going to All right, so tell me how you got into your art form. And tell us about what you're doing what you create. So yeah, sure. So I suppose look, I suppose like a lot of people kind of being creative was really important to me, kind of growing up, we were always in really encouraged. You know, like drawing art. I remember one year, Santa Claus bought me this fantastic V tech digital art team. And it was just kind of, you know, you know, sometimes presence just kind of stand out, you're grateful and doing doing it. And, and then when I was a teenager, I did work experience in my local newspaper. And I was like, hang on a minute, people get paid to write. So I just, I just fell in love with the idea of journalism and writing because I loved English and, you know, typical teenager, you know, trying to write stories and novels and all this, you know, wishing for it was actually finished. But you know, you kind of keep writing away, you know, and so I actually did journalism was my first career. And so it was an I did journalism for a couple of years. And I just loved it. I just love being able to write I love to creativity, I love meeting people I loved, you know, just a whole, just the whole idea of it, that you could kind of come up with these ideas and get them on paper and, you know, influence people and people would, you know, read them and, you know, be inspired by them. And, yeah, it was fantastic. It was fantastic. And then in my early 20s, I did a lot of Irish people do and I would love to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Australia, realized that, okay, I don't have a degree. If I want to get back to Australia for longer, you know, you need to have a degree. So I came back to Ireland, and I said, I do a degree in marketing management. You know, I said, marketing is creative. You don't you do something in business. Yeah. And so I did that kind of my mid 20s. And then of course, by the time I'd have three years done, I was like, Oh, come back to Australia. I loved it, but you know, you're kind of starting again. And so it was like, okay, look, I'll get some experience here. So then I kind of fell into kind of marketing and kind of sales roles and the creativity went out the door. Like, you know, the writing, I had been dabbling in bit of art and do a bit of art, like, I don't art in school, I loved art, you know, these are all true, you know, kind of primary and secondary schools. So up to the age of 18, you know, loved it kind of dabbled in art and a little bit afterwards, but it kind of went to the wayside. And then, in 2018, I did an art class, just in the local when it local colleges here, you know, so it was just, you know, it was just a temporary course. And I was like, Oh, God, I really liked this. So, you know, so did I started kind of going back into it, and, you know, just just doing just tried to create, but I suppose, like, a lot of people, you know, I was forcing myself into doing what I thought was, you know, good, Eric, you know, like, if it wasn't detailed, or if it wasn't, blah, blah, blah, you know, didn't wasn't kind of good art. So I just didn't have an understanding of me as a creative as an artist as a visual creative. So, you know, so I was trying to do a lot of things that were completely out of my range, you know, skill level wise, and that kind of thing. But I kept doing because I was getting, I suppose, emotional fulfillment out of it, you know, it was a nice pastime. And, you know, it was kind of getting back their creative, creative spark again, you know, and then we had our Kate Connor in 2019. So, you know, so I was still kind of doing like, little bit of art kind of here and there. And I started doing things like hashtag challenges. So I set up an Instagram page for my art. And, you know, it wasn't that my art was brilliant. But I liked sharing with it, I like connecting with other artists with other creatives and that kind of thing. So it gave me this kind of outlet to kind of appreciate life and art and, you know, just having something I suppose for myself as well, you know, that kind of thing, you know, and so, yeah, so I was doing kind of hashtag challenges. And then I was finding this, you know, teams were starting to, you know, my act was kind of improving, and that kind of thing. And I was like, brilliant. But I still had no kind of, I suppose, connection with my art. And I suppose that's what kind of motherhood has in a roundabout way given me is my connection to my art, especially in the last year. The real value of my art I found over the last couple of years. Now, I know you mentioned trigger warnings. So I suppose I can do trigger warning here. Yeah, so miscarry, though, I'm bringing it up, because it's a definite part of my kind of creative kind of journey. Yeah. So I had my first miscarriage in August 2020. So it's 11 weeks, everything had been fine. Until it wasn't. And so I kind of turned to her again. And, you know, it was kind of giving me that little bit of hockey meat, I you know, I could just do something for myself. And decorating. And a dead saw. got pregnant again. And 22, early 2021 turned round, you know, and I started, you know, I'm just doing some hashtag challenges. And, unfortunately, I had another miscarriage. So go ahead. It's okay. Well, look, I look, I suppose. And look, if you do want to ask questions, I'm happy to answer questions. I bring this up, because it is part of my journey. And it's important to talk about these things, because I don't know, if it's the same in Australia and Ireland. We don't really talk about these things. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, you know, as women as creatives as moderators, you know, these are all part of our journeys. This, you know, you don't you don't talk about, you know, it's kind of, certainly in Ireland, you know, we're like, don't tell anybody, you're pregnant for the first 12 weeks in case something happens. And then you're like, well, if something happens, how are you supposed to bring it up with a woman? Well, I was pregnant, and now I'm not, you know, it's very difficult. It's very difficult, you know, when trying to find a way of dealing with that, you know, especially when you're dealing with didn't know your own, you know, like, you can tell, suppose your friends and obviously your partner and that kind of thing, but it is difficult and you're like trying to find reasons, you know, working through the motions, and I suppose that's very my kind of art and so I've kind of committed as well, you know, it's just helping me discover To me, you don't like kind of just end. But, um, but give yourself something of your own as well, you know, that wasn't, you know, so I currently don't sell my art. So it's like, it's just something for me to enjoy and something to do and that kind of thing. And then. So yeah, so I actually did a core stem with lower heart. So she's an Australian artist over in Adelaide. Yeah. And so So yeah, so I did one of her courses, and you know, and it was just so nice and gentle. And, you know, just had a little community was really nice. You know, it was just like, oh, and it kind of started to open up my eyes, in terms of what my art was doing and what my art could be. So I was like, okay, so we started on that path. And then I had a turd miscarriage. Oh, gosh, in April in April of 2021. All these years just kind of rolling together. Yeah. And, and that was, that was a chemical pregnancy. And that went on for about three months, dealing with the kind of physical repercussions of that. And I was just like, footsy, like, you know, so but, you know, I started doing 100 Edge challenge. So I was like, Okay, I have something to focus on. You know, I was kind of doing away doing the art way. And then it's only been kind of, I suppose, in the last year, then that I've kind of made the actual true connection between motherhood and my art. And suppose this what all the rigmarole stories kind of leading up to? It started 2022 as like, okay, no, I'm just giving myself permission. Okay, we are, you know, we decided, okay, we're not going to try for more kids are done, we're going to, you know, we have one, we're very blessed, very happy. And, you know, I put decided, okay, look, physically, emotionally, spiritually, it's okay to see we're done. And again, I again, I think that's another message that I want to kind of portray in my act and share out in general, because, you know, we're always like, Oh, no, you know, your mother, you should suffer or your whatever, and you should push past your own emotions and your own needs and wants, because, you know, obviously, you know, like, I know, you talk about mom guilt, obviously, wrongly consented to, you're like, Oh, my God, you know, it's going to be an only child. What does that mean? You know, should I just, you know, push myself aside and blah, blah, blah. But I think we have to say, okay, you know, fight sometimes it's okay to say enough. Yes, say, you know, what we're doing. And I suppose giving myself permission to, you know, really listen to myself and my needs, yeah, suddenly opened up things in my art that I had absolutely no awareness of no concept of No, even now, I'm still trying to figure out what it all means. I started back writing, and I started a blog. And then I started writing poems. I don't write poems. But I started writing poems, I started writing prose about motherhood, about, you know, the joy of finding out about you're pregnant. And, you know, the excitement of, you know, you know, giving birth and saying hello to your new child about things like being nap trapped, you know, you're stuck on your baby, and you just absolutely can't move, you know? So I started writing about all this stuff. And I don't know where it came from. Would it just, it was like, everything that I've been kind of doing belong had kind of mashed together, and just suddenly was like, oh, here because I gave myself permission to, you know, listen to myself more just on the argument. And I started, you know, creating different artwork and pieces, based on the poems and prose. Yeah, so I just, yeah, so it's just been, it's just kind of been crazy, as well as try to understand that over the last kind of couple of months, it's only been maybe within the last year. I've really kind of been able to gather the pieces and kind of put them all together and it's been really fun and exciting and it's also helped Me, you know, understand other areas of my life and kind of get centered in other areas of my life. And also, I suppose, you know, like the value of art and creativity in that sense, you know, it can't be underestimated. And I think that's what I really, really fell with that is just kind of like, you know, I feel understood, I feel heard and seen. And it's so funny, like, when I share, you know, it's really hard, it's easier to share the artwork than it is to share the kind of pools and pools and liquidity, but I find that when I share board together, that people are like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've, like felt like that, or, you know, I know where you're coming from, or definitely, you know, so it's that kind of sharing of experiences and decorating that, sometimes, we are always happy to talk about the happy stuff, you know, finding out you're pregnant, it's like, you know, sharing the new baby that can take you on, but the harder stuff is not really shared. And it's really sad. And just, you know, it's just part of the human experience. It is what it is. And, you know, so I kind of tried to share a little bit of everything. Well, I love that look. Honestly, I think that's so it's so important to, for us to be able to talk about the stuff that doesn't go so well, like, for so long. And like previous generations, it's like, oh, no, you know, don't talk about that. We don't talk about that everything's got to be seen to be, you know, just fine. Everyone's got to be, you know, they try this image that we're all coping and everything's great. And it's like, no, enough is enough. Like, I think that's half the reason people have so much trouble with, like mental illness or issues with their, with their health is that they, they feel stifled that they can't talk about things. And it's so important. And thank you so much for sharing so openly. Something I really believe in is that any, like, we could share one thing, and we have no concept of how many people that could make a difference for. So I think you can like never underestimate the power of, of sharing your story. And yeah, thank you for I really appreciate your honesty, like you are starting to get really emotional, when you're talking about how everything came together, when you just said, Enough is enough. It's time literally to listen to yourself. And then it all just came together. And it's like this, this whole thing has opened up, I don't even know how to describe it. But like a thing has opened up. And it's all this amazingness is happening. I don't know how to describe it. And this is one of the moments I'm probably headed out. But you know what I mean? Like, nobody would know, I do know what you mean, and it is important. But you know, sometimes I feel a bit weird sharing it and being open about it. Because, like, for so long, I didn't talk about it. So I didn't. So the first miscarriage happened in August 2020. And I didn't tell anybody about anything that was going on, you know, bear my immediate family, you know, my husband's immediate family. And like one or two friends. I eventually shared a post on my personal Instagram in October 2021. And like this was after we'd met, I met a consultant. So we've got miscarriage clinic and med consultant, you know, to kind of see if we can kind of figure out what was going on. And it was after that ended, I just shared and you know, like, one of my friends was like, we're like, you know, over the course of a year, like you were, you know, you were pregnant for six months, which you were, you know, physical miscarriage, you know, for about three, four months of it. And did you know, and you didn't share anything? And I was like, Yeah, you know, so many women do that. And the minute I shared the post, the amount of women that I was friends with, you know, either on Instagram or Facebook, private message me she's like, Oh, Jen, yeah, you know, I had the same experience, or, you know, I just after having one, or, you know, that kind of thing did happen a couple of years ago when they hadn't shared anything, really. And it's really sad because it is currently you know, it's one in four. We you know, and it is difficult, it is difficult to talk about, and some people can't talk about it, and that's fine. But if you can talk about it. I think sharing your experience and saying that you know what, look, it's shit. But you you will be okay. You know, it kind of helps people who can talk about it maybe so. Yeah, now Good Feet on Reddit look, honestly, I'm I don't want to sound condescending. But what you're doing is fantastic. Really? Good. No, I'm really yeah. Sorry. Like, nice feel like you're awesome. I love it. Yeah, but, but like, in general. It's just and it was, you know, I mean, it was giving that myself that permission to be like, okay, They will look. You know, it is it is what it is like, we can keep going. But, you know, we have happy situation, you know, we have a great kid. I mean, he's absolutely amazing. It's just turned four. Yeah. And he's better look for, you know, and we're like, look, sometimes, you know, it's important more, you know, it's just as important to have happy healthy parents for kids. Yes. You know, that kind of thing. And it's like, and it's very easy to feel like you need to martyr yourself. You know, yeah. And maybe marriage was too strong word, you know, post, you know, it's like, it's important in the Ford picture, and it's all key to take into a picture. You know, I think I think we need you know, so I think it was it was giving myself that permission and didn't suddenly, because I'd been kind of doing the art all along. It just suddenly, like, you know, it just exploded, and it's just, it's just so nice. And it's just, like, it's an outlet for me, it's, you know? Yeah, look, it's just it is, it's a beautiful outlet. You know, you can connect with amazing people like you, like, you know, all people, women, amazing women that you've had on the podcast, you know, I mean, listening to their stories, you know, it's, it's really inspiring, you know, and you know, that you're not alone. And in order to have this thing that you could share with the world, and it's, it's fun, it's fun. After a long day, it's fun to be able to pick pick up paint brush, you know, I work primarily in, like acrylics at the moment, I'm doing most of my stuff on canvas. And it's fun, it's fun, just to see where things go. And you can just, you know, I do like, it's funny, because every, you know, like, so I started off with the kind of poem and prose, and then it just kind of turns into something, you know, I have no idea what is going on, you know, I kind of started to see pictures and stuff in my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, and it kind of, kind of take it in certain directions. And from there, you know, says, interesting, it's, you know, when it's yeah, it's, it's colorful, and it's you look, it's, it's important to use the right side of our brain and to kind of user behind us and, you know, our, you know, our voices or whatever, whatever, it's up to you. You're, you know, this, it's bringing forward and just go with it, you know, Oh, absolutely. I think it's it, like any sort of creativity, I think is just vital for human beings to have something, you know, like you said that, that other side of your brain, and, you know, I like, like you say, like, it is fun, it's a, it's a switch off. Like, it allows us to process things like you've talked about, but the act of, you know, we think I work in childcare, and or not anymore. Sorry, I work in kindy. I worked in childcare for nine years. So I mean, early childhood education, and like, the kids love to paint. And it's like, when, why do we stop this stuff? You know, I know, most, like most adults don't paint unless they, you know, artists, they'll call themselves out. So they're like, Yeah, we don't draw, you know, most of us stop running around and being silly or whatever, it's like, you get to this point, you're an adult, now you have to grow up and act or serious. Like, you're fine. And we have. Yeah, like, I think if I working with kids is so good from for me and my mental health, because it is so fun, and it's so enjoyable, and you get your true authentic self, you know, you can't hide behind, like the kids will see right through you, if you've got some sort of a laugh, and you get to joke around and be silly and engage. It's just so it is so much fun. Like, it's an it's important for adults to play. Yeah. And to kind of, you know, like, you know, for whatever format that comes out, and, and, you know, what I think it's, I think nowadays is more kind of acceptable, you know, like, you know, people do art, you know, if the computer games, if it's music, if it's seeing if it's, you know, reading and that kind of thing, it's, you know, I think it's starting to become more acceptable to have a range of, you know, hobbies or that kind of thing, you all so you have work and so if you're not, but it's important, it's important to our sense, our sanity. Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. To be able to switch off to have something for yourself to have something that you can you know, kind of just relax into and you know, you can enjoy. Yeah, yeah, and like, I guess people, you know, have really stressful jobs or as, as moms it can get quite overwhelming sometimes and That level of stress gets to have something that's not stressful. And that is just really enjoyable and fun is, yeah, it's so important, so important for us. Like, for me, it's just having to have it if I, if I can switch off, you know, my, like, every other modern day, you know, your brain is going 100 miles an hour, you're taking this and that and, you know, you're trying to organize, and you're trying to be 10 steps ahead of yourself. And you're also trying to remember the stuff that you were supposed to do, when did you do all this stuff? And so you're just like, Okay, no, you know, it's just have some time to switch off, have some time for yourself, and be able to give yourself permission to enjoy it and just be like, oh, you know, what? Happier parents, you know, doing whatever little thing did you like to do for you just doesn't have to contribute in any way to anything. Auditing yourself is also important. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Your son, you said he's four. Does he like to come in? And do painting with you as well? Yeah, yeah. So what we do is, we alternate bedtime routines, because my son has like a to our bedtime routine, where he's like, you know, you have to play and read and do this, and then you eventually get him to do his teeth, you know, put on his pajamas and that kind of thing. So we moved him into his big room last year, so I took over a little box room for my art space. Yeah. You know, so like, he came in, he's a box of stuff now, you know, of his own teams, and he'd come in, and we'll do a bit of art, you know, or we do some at the weekend, you know, he loves, you know, he just loves to crack, he loves, you know, kind of painting and that kind of stuff, you know, so it's, and it's great fun, and it's nice, quality time that I can spend with them. You know, sometimes, sometimes we just take over the whole kitchen table, you know, the pages they refer, and we're mixing up paint, and, you know, he's learning about the primary colors, and he's talking about this, that, you know, oftentimes, it's important for our kids to, you know, because they're learning, they're learning to create, they're, you know, they're learning stuff, you know, certain language documents associated with, you know, art and creativity, and they're tapping into that, and they're, like, they're naturally in tune with, you know, they enjoy certain things, you know, that kind of thing. And it's just their imagination, they're playing events, you know, it's, and it's a nice way for us as, as adults to connect with them. Via that, you know, so yeah, like, he'll come in even, you know, he'll come in and do a bit or, you know, if I'm just starting on the canvas, you know, I get him to help me, you know, get all lit up, and, you know, put some colors. And, you know, and he's like, when you're Kansas Mama's like, Yeah, but you're alone? No, you know, so you have to set the rooms, you know, if I'm working on the canvas, you know, there's some canvases you can touch with some of them something that you've kind of nearly finished, and you're like, Oh, no. No, that wouldn't be good for anyone. But that's true that, you know, setting boundaries, that's an important thing to do with kids. You know, I feel like, sometimes parents are scared to say no to their children, or to say no, actually, this is my you can't do this. It's so important for kids to learn that and for them, for them to then know that it's okay for them to have things that other people don't do, or you know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, but that's it, but input and they understand, if you explain to them understand they understand more than we give them credit for? Absolutely, yes. You know, like, if you, if you say to them, Look, no, you know, notice this one is mom's but this one is yours. And you you know, you can do what you want to do so, and I've given him like, there's a couple of my kind of old small canvases that I've given him. So he's delighted with that, and he can paint over them, and he could do this and that, you know, so he has his box itself. And, you know, like, sometimes I let him use some of my paints and He's pure, happy, you know. And it's kind of, you know, it encourages that bond between you and you can also Like you say, it's, you know, you can create your boundaries within this and, you know, and it's good for both of you, you know, I can now having my little fella come in and paint with me, was so good for me to learn to like, just relax a bit and not be so stressed about certain things being perfect. Or, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, oh, no, don't touch that one. Don't and it was like, actually, what does it mean? If he uses that pain, like it was sort of getting things into perspective for me, so it's definitely helped him that way to not stress so and then, once you learned, like you say about different things like, you can paint on this, but don't paint on that. Or if you're going to use these paints, make sure you've got something under it, or whatever it is, once you have that set up, it's like, you can sort of relax a bit and go, Okay, that's cool. He knows not to put that one on the carpet or something, you know? Is that initial setting up? Yes. I can now can relax. Yeah, yeah. But but but that's it. And you know, like, and we can learn from kidssoup when it comes to art, you know, I mean, like, like, you see, you know, they might pull out a painted, you're like, oh, no, that's a good paint. No, I can't use that, you know, might have satin, you might have said practically on us for last three years. It's like, don't use paint, yes to paint. Like, buy more if you you know, use it or, you know, yeah. You know, and just and just go for it and just kind of let yourself loose and let your you know, let yourself imagine and, you know, go with this, you know, that's it. Yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's is definitely lesson we've learned from our kids and just go for it. And just enjoy and just, you know, it's the only boundaries in your art are created by you. Yeah, you know, when you think about it, we are where it wants to set the boundaries, you know, and the limitations. So, you know, we don't have to stay in sight lines if we don't want to, Hmm, let's see, isn't it? Yeah, that's one of the things that took me a long time to get over. But even just making like the choices that I make, when I'm painting, if I can think more like my son, when he paints and not overthink everything so much, like, that's been a good lesson for me to just, yeah, I don't know, I think you can be in your head so much questioning yourself. And like the self doubt and the imposter syndrome, all this stuff, that's all in your mind. And it's like, if you just if you switch off and be like a kid would be, they don't think about all that stuff. They don't think Oh, is someone going to like this, or if I'd done this bit rash, or, you know, we could learn so much from them? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. That's what I found to put, you know, when I started kind of going back painting, what I found was just, I was like, Oh my God, if I don't make this, you know, kind of really realistic looking, or really intricate, looking, you know, are really perfect looking, you know, people aren't gonna like it. And I was trying to force myself into skill level for I was definitely not at, you know, that kind of thing. It didn't it was like, it got really frustrating. So, why can't I do this? Yes, yeah. You know, when I, when I decided to let it go, like I am, you know, I don't paint realistically, if, you know, if you love photo, realistically, you know, if you look at my painting, you know, you know, it's, you know, it's a painting, you're not going to think that you're looking at a photograph, you know, you're not only Samaritan's Purse, like Amazingly, the detail and, you know, the texture and everything they achieve, you know, so once they kind of accepted it, no look, just go and play. And I found this things like the hashtag challenges. And kinda you know, it really, like, it opened up, you know, my eyes kind of flat you could do and just kind of let go of this perfectionism and try to just start to listen, just listen to what's in me, because, you know, we all connect with other people, you know, different things about everybody's work, we'll connect with other people. So you know, my arch with, you know, a Pete some people and other people will be like, that isn't dirt. What are you talking about? You know, that kind of thing, you know? So, so yeah, but, you know, it's all open to interpretation. And, you know, nobody's necessarily right or wrong, but it's, you know, it's, as long as it's making you happy, you know, and like, obviously, you know, I mean, I don't currently send my work. So it's funny, when I got a message from you on Instagram, I was like, imposter syndrome. No, I can't talk about Oh, my God. I was just like, as like, oh, no, she might take the day. She said, My work is so my, this just, you know, like, something that I'm not and I was just like, Well, no, look, you know, I call myself narratives. So I create our own, you know, you know, regular basis, you know, I mean, I Yes, the ultimate team is I would love to start selling my work. Maybe I went this year, maybe I get over myself and for that impostor syndrome to decide and be like, no, okay, you know, I kind of ready but, you know, I've viewed it like, I'm in art school. I'm sad. Tod artists, I'm currently in our school of life. And, you know, and I'm just enjoying it a lot. You know, I think when you give yourself space and to explore and that kind of thing, you know, you do find your kind of truer, authentic voice. And kind of, I feel like I've kind of started to tap into that, but it's only because I've given myself space. And obviously, it's easy for me to say, because, you know, I mean, I worked full time in a non articulated, you know, area. So, you know, I don't have to worry about that. So it's like, I can play, I can give myself space, and that kind of thing, energy isn't so important. And, you know, it doesn't matter whether whether it's your full time job, or a part time job, or, you know, your hobby, can give your space set space to be creative to, you know, do what you want to do. And it's all valid. Yeah, that's it, that's so true. We sort of mentioned the monkey earlier in regards to having one child, how do you feel about it? When it comes to art? Do you feel any of that? Sort of those emotions? And that time? No, no, I think because, okay, because I work full time anyway. Like, demand guilt is, you know, kept from my full time job, you know, because, you know, it's like, you know, you know, so, you know, like, there are like, cases, you know, where you're just like, you feel so bad, you know, leaving, like I kind of went through a phase last year. Where he because I started work at 10, seven, and morning. So you know, so I start really early, and I finished in at, you know, have three, so I have to be awkward, I kind of have five quarter to six American, he started, he was having a face where he get up with me and didn't want to leave, he bought his eyes out. And my poor husband didn't know, I'll be dealing with this. And, you know, I feel so guilty, you know, going out to work and him crying, and you're leaving for me hard to deal with this. And you're just like, Oh my God. You know, like, look, it was a face you got over it, it's fine. You know, you know, that kind of thing. But they're like, look, you can see Mom relatable, so much. So much different things. And it's so hard, you know, and I suppose you know, it might, you know, it'll show up differently for me to new and, you know, that kind of thing. But there's always I feel like there's always something to feel guilty about you like, Oh, God, am I doing enough? I mean, you know, this mother is doing this, or, you know, you're you're looking at social media, like, Oh, my God, you're doing like, you know, these fantastic, you know, things and they're going out every weekend and look at, look at how they're living life. And we're like, you know, I'm sitting on the floor playing Duplo instead of, you know, taking out some fancy, whatever, you know, adventure park or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. What is it but it doesn't matter, as long as you're happy lungs, your family or, you know, happy you know, you have to you have to let go of that. And it's really, really hard sometimes, you know, because you're just like, Oh, God, you know, I should be doing more. But no, I think once you let go of kind of that, and do your best as all you can do. And you're always going to feel guilty about sorting, because there's always something that you could probably be doing a bit better. Yeah. You know, you're only human, you can only do so often. It's like, it's I think manga is just it just goes with the territory, you know? Yes. I don't know if you ever get over it at all. Maybe Maybe you do eventually, hopefully. Get that's the thing like is if you're not doing one thing, you think I should be doing that. And then if you're doing that thing, you think I should be doing that. And it's just this constant thing that plays out in your mind. Yeah. And I get I get points where I'm like, No, don't think that. Like, don't don't worry about that, you know, but then you find like, 10 minutes later, something else will happen. And you'll be like, Oh, it's just so yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. But that's it. And it's hard and it doesn't matter. It's just, it's just constant. So you just you do you have to let it go with you came and I wrote this poem. Just about just literally, literally, it was about debt. I actually probably should have brought it down. So I was like, the last line was like, Don't give me your shoots because they're not going to carry and it's true. And it's like, you know, what's, you know? Like, what's valid for you and your family? Your kids? You know, isn't that sincerity was going to be valid for mine and this kind of entity is hard because you're you are seeing people do you know XY and Z? And you're like, oh, maybe I should maybe I should do that. Or, you know, society you feel like society's expecting certain things from you. There's maybe you're not. Maybe you know, it's not suitable for your family and you just do what's right for you what's right for your family and trust yourself this, you're doing the best you can. That's it, isn't it? Having that confidence in yourself to say actually, no, I don't need to be going and doing x y Zed that such and such. Oh, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like at the moment here at home. Much to my disgust my loungeroom my good Landrieu is being taken over by a big game of monopoly that seems to be never ending. Like monopoly and we just got home this morning. We played my son plays tennis my little little work. And they had a social day for like parents or family or whoever to play. And they put us in all in teams, this mixed doubles teams. I haven't played tennis I think properly for like, I don't know. Honestly, 15 years like a long time, but it was great fun. I really enjoyed it. And we had a great heat and everything and then I got home. All I do is sit on the couch and have wrist. Yes, this monopoly game just looking at me like ah, should be playing this game. I wanted gone out of my of my lounge. I want to finish this guy. And then degree my little fella comes, Hi, Joe. I'm playing Monopoly. I'm like, if I can lay down on the floor, I'll play. But you know what I mean? Like there's always something out and I and it's like, sometimes you just gotta put your blinkers on and go No, I actually, this is where my focus is. This is what I want to be thinking of now and the rest can just disappear. That's it, but let's put guaranteed, right? It's the things we're like, oh, God, we shouldn't be doing that. So your game of monopoly is something that your kids are going to remember to be bringing in open if you remember when we played that monopoly game that lasted for like 10 weeks, and we just take every single day. And you know, and it was probably you know, it's best for you know, so it's just yeah, it's just you know, for kids just wanted to keep just want you to connect with them. Kids want you to play with them, you know, again on the floor, you know, do you know connect with them? Forever. We do like to be connected with you know, like mean, Connor, you know, we pay so much to glow and he's big into Ghostbusters. Now we're not sure if we're to Ghostbusters thing came from but like he's like, you know, like, literally like Ghostbusters, and it's old school Ghostbusters from like, our childhood, you know, the 90s Like, you know that Ghostbusters? Yeah. And that's all he does all he wants to do. He just wants you just just sit down play with him. And, you know, it's just, you know, and those are the things that they remember. They don't necessarily, you know, to be to be crazy things. It's like the small connections that you can make the on day, you know, whether it's true play or creativity or music or, you know, that kind of thing, though, those are the things that they remember. And you remember and you know, so it's kind of Yeah, but it's hard because you're trying to you know, you're like oh my god the kitchen the state and obtained loads of laundry. And that's exactly, you know, you're trying to you're trying to find the balance someplace between all of us. And sometimes it works sometimes, you know, so some weeks, some weeks I know I fight even though I'm like, I'm totally on top of this, you know, papers and started you know, we're playing and then the next week is just an absolute shit show. And you're like, what? Yeah, no balance. I find that it does go it goes in flows. Like it's never like, I don't know if sometimes, like a clean up. And I think I'm gonna keep this really clean. Like what? Lately I've been doing my cupboard. Make sure I put everything back away after I finished wearing it or put the line the shoes back up. So like, how long is this going to last for your record? It's not going too bad. But yeah, nothing are fine with me anyway, it's always it ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You do. You just have to go with it. And you just have to just try to give yourself a bit of grace and say, Okay, well, look, it is what it is. Let's just, you know, make the best. That's it. Isn't it being kind to ourselves? I think that's yeah, that's sort of the underlying thing that I think always get back to in these conversations is just, we've just got to be kinder to ourselves, you know, give us a carousel some slack and yeah, not be so quick. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cuz there's, like, there's always this weight of expectation of, you know, you could have how you can do doing things differently. But I suppose like that you just have to try and connect with yourself and You know, with your partner and with your kids and pots, rice, what's right for you? You know, and just go from there. It's really all you can do is, yeah, that's it easy so with your artwork at the moment, what sort of what? Where do you gather your inspiration from at the moment? Is it still working through the emotions of of losing the babies? Or is it more day to day? Things that you feel? It's, it's mostly, it's mostly day to day, like, you know, I mean, I like as I say, like, I think it's important to address all the emotions. So, you know, motherhood isn't, you know, just joy, it is grief, there is loss, whether whether you've lost pregnancies or lost, or, you know, I mean, there's a sense of, you know, like, you lose yourself a little bit, you know, because you gain a new you, you know, and push, like, like I was saying, you know, so like I did want about being that tract, and, you know, to painting does emerge from it is this big, massive waterfall basin, because we were in Iceland last year, so space and one of the waterfalls there, it's this big, massive waterfall, and two big rocks, and loads of flowers, and this really colorful in this light, you know, so you're not trapped. So you're stuck, you know, between a rock and a hard place, and just like the end of the end of the team, you know, the whole poem is like, you know, do I need to pee, you know, but I'm not trapped. So I can't, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, and you're trying to kind of go through all the emotions, you know, so you're, like, oh, there's somebody at the door, but I'm not trapped, I can't get up to or, you know, watch for the TV, because, you know, I'm not trapped. I can't, you know, I should really shower, eat or do laundry, but I'm not trapped. And in the end of it is like, what's that? What's my bladder, you know, like, I do need to pee. So that's what kind of waterfall came from, it's like, oh, waterfall, you know, what you're, you know, kind of just making, you know, it's just, it's about fun that I did like another one. Like, my favorite moment, you know, so it's about your favorite moment with your kids, you know, so it's, you know, I taking this photo of Connor who's walking off the field. And so you've just been blue sky, and you know, the field. And so, instead of the sky, I did all these, like, little postcards of moments did you have with your kids. So you know, so, you know, like, one was, you know, in playing in a puddle, or, you know, Bubbles, or you know, what kind of reading or, you know, like, all of these little, you know, to talk to small moments, we remember, okay, they might necessarily remember, but we remember, you know, leading to them not watching their favorite TV show. And, you know, how all of those are kind of, you know, your favorite moments that you kind of gather up along the years, you know, once saw another, you know, painting was inspired by that, and I did this big sunflower, I don't know, if I'll ever be able to sell it. I think he's probably talking a bit too much. You know, so it's about love first, sort of, like finding out, you know, when you find out, you're pregnant, and you're like, Oh, my God, it's a you know, it's an amazing feeling. And, you know, you can kind of go through it, and then you're just, you know, you're waiting, you know, you've all these emotions and everything, you know, so it's just just be happy. So clarity, and all that have layers, you know, I've worked, I've worked with a lot of layers and, you know, bright colors, and, you know, so, yeah, it's like, it's, there's so many emotions, you know, but I do feel this, you know, it's important to talk about my journey, because, you know, that is very came from, you know, there is, there is, you know, loss and grief and stuff associated with, you know, being a parent being a martyr. But there's so many happy moments, there's so many nice moments, and it's just, you know, I'm working on what never diminished and just, it's all flowers, it's like, you know, it's based on I can't wait to meet you. So, you know, all these, like, new moments that you have with your kids. So, you know, obviously, the first moment of scene opened or a newborn and, you know, just arrived, you know, but, you know, each step each, you know, step into child's life is kind of a new step for you in your relationship with your kids, you know, and it's, it's amazing so you can celebrate the kid, you know, as a war as the higher you know, each step that they kind of come along and they're kind of like blossoming entities, you know, Hmm, amazing, amazing flora, you know, so So yeah, so I tried to, I tried to cover, you know, a range of softens, you know, like, it's funny because, you know, the writing would contribute or strange times like I mean, I might because like, remember once I was walking so we dropped kind of off to crash so, you know, I was walking on to Greyhound so I was walking, you know, when a trike with my two greyhounds, and you know, these lines were coming to me, so I had to stop after decided or put into the footpath after, you know, and I was on my phone type annoyed. Because if I don't write it down, I'm not going to remember it. I'll be kicking myself because I believe that was perfect. Why did you write it down? Yes, yeah, I'm doing that. And it's just and you just, you know, and it's, you know, so you have to just kind of go with it. And, you know, write your dough, and, you know, the note app, you know, I've got, you know, all these lines and an otter, you know, and, and sometimes, like things will just come like just randomly, you know, and it's all the like, little moments, you know, it's kind of I was driving home one evening with Connor, and it was hard to keep them a week, because it was Derrick girls, it was kind of around five o'clock, or halfway or something. And, you know, I was trying to get Louie. He's a big fan of boys. Yeah, we love Louie, this house is great. So trying to get that on, you know, and that, you know, that kind of inspired another poem. You know, it's just like, just, you know, there's so many things, you know, that you kind of go just day to day that you can kind of think about and remember, and I like to kind of make the connections of Dash, you know, so it's not like, so it's not just the big moments is the small moments, you know, kind of, yeah, that you kind of remember and you take on board, you know, so it's kind of it's, it's interesting, just to see how things translate first of all into words and did bring it out into, you know, a painting and so, so yeah, so it's kind of it's been a journey for me didn't try to relay that, you know, how to share data with other people. So it's like, in my head, I'm like, Oh, this makes perfect sense. You know? And then you're trying to explain to somebody else, you're like, oh, okay, yeah. That's something cool. Yeah. So just, it's, it's just, you know, a journey of exploration. And I think, again, it's going back to that giving myself permission to explore, to learn, to identify, you know, kind of how I can kind of best communicate all of this stuff out of my hand, you know, and onto, you know, paper or canvas, you know, whatever. And it's so it's yeah, it's interesting, it's fun, and it's, you know, and, and as I say, you know, like, when I start sharing is, start sharing the meaning behind the paintings. And people are like, Oh, okay, yeah, you know, they kind of get it more so, like, what I'd love to do is have an exhibition, you know, prehab, the paintings, and you have the pros kind of behind it. So people can kind of make that connection, and you're like, Okay, you know, so they can kind of see where everything comes from. And, you know, that kind of thing. Because, you know, when you start sharing that the amount of people who'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, that's, that makes sense. Or I felt that or, you know, so yeah. Like, as, as artists as creatives, you know, we can put into, you know, words or, you know, visual effects, what other people can't necessarily, you know, so you can kind of make that connection, you know, with, you know, with the motions with that kind of thing. And, you know, that's how you can build your connection, build your community, and then go from there. And that's, you know, that's where I'm aiming for, you know, to share these experiences with older people. Because, you know, a guarantee, like, every single model has had this kind of story. We're trying to keep their kid awake in the car. Oh, yeah. If you see, though, you're not going to sleep until midnight tonight. Exactly. So you do whatever you can to, you know, try to keep the kid awake or keep the kid entertained. And definitely, you know, so it's like, we have all these shared experiences that, you know, they might be slightly different to each other, but, you know, they're, you know, the same you know, so you know, oh, sorry. No, no, no, I was just gonna say, I've got a funny story when it comes to trying to keep a child awake. My my first son, who's now 15. I had to try and keep him awake while I was, you know, there's sort of seats you get put on the back of your bicycle. And yeah. And so we're coming back from a friend's house and I could feel his head pushing into my bag. Like, trying to steer like really safe, trying to lift your colleagues, LAX, I'm particularly under the chin and the kid who just fell asleep on the back of the bike. And I swear, they sleep for 10 minutes. And that adds like four or five hours on to how it's like this recharge nap. Oh my gosh, yeah, amount of times we've done on the trip, just to get, you know, somewhere, boom, off, he goes, like, oh, no, no, he's gonna be up all night. Yeah, that's it, you're like, can you teach me how to do that, because that would be very useful. 10 minute nap and just have to be rising, it will ask you. Want to ask that when you're talking about you, being able to express your emotions and your ideas through prose and through physically painting, do you find one is easier or harder than the other or that you find comes more naturally? Because I'm asking this because I once had Katie Callahan on the podcast, and she's a singer songwriter, and she also heights and we had this conversation about how different or I can't remember what it was, but how she approaches each sort of medium in a different way. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on that. So yeah, it's, it's funny, I find with the writing, it just comes out in spurts. So it just like, literally, I can just No, I can't and poems and prose, okay. They're very rough. You know, I mean, I don't want reIated them, necessarily. Some of them, you know, I might kind of horn but I just, I just let them go. And they're just, you know, that's, that's what they are, you know, and some of some of them are nice, you know, nicer, you know, better put together than others. You know, what I just I just kind of, it just flows I find, or else sometimes I kind of get a couple of lines. You know, as a character ended up, I go back to the couple of weeks later and be like, Okay, no, this is what I need to say, here, you know. And, with the paintings, I like to have a couple of paintings going at the same time. So sometimes, it might be that I do, like, I like to work in there. So sometimes, I might do a couple of layers, and I might have no idea what's going to happen under the canvas. But then it's like something in my head, it's like, oh, no, you need to kind of try to do this, you know, and then other times, it's like, this is what this canvas is going to say, I know exactly what's gonna go on. And I can just, you know, kind of go into. And so it varies, it varies. You know, I don't have any set process. It's, you know, sometimes it comes to the sparks, sometimes, like, I find them like, really, really creative. And I suppose that's another thing that I'm trying to kind of figure out for myself as well. In terms of my process and my cycles, you know, they go find, sometimes enough very creative and I find, you know, to, you know, around kind of November and into December, no, no interest in creating at all, and, you know, and, and then after Christmas, like, oh my god, I have so many ideas, I've got to get everything down and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, you know, you know, so far I kind of before Christmas, I was doing a little bit of writing and that kind of stuff, you know, but then suddenly, like the art was like, Oh my God, I need to paint the need to paint and you know, so it's so yeah, so it's kind of it does come in cycles, it does, you know, and bought it and kind of present a little bit differently I find for myself, you know, I'm currently in a position where that's fine. You know, I'm sure did if I was a commercial artist, if I was trying to you know if this was my livelihood. Yep, you know, that kind of thing. So I do think I'm kind of luckier that way because I can just lettings. lettings, you know, calm and I'm enjoying that process at the moment. And you know, without the pressure. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So, so yeah, I do. I do. I do think if I was like you know if this was if this was my job and I needed to finish X number of paintings in the month, you know, that kind of thing to pay my rent. You know, it might be I suppose was, well, you know what, that pressure is good too, because you kind of it forces you to sit down, say, Okay, well, no, look, you know, what am I doing here? You know, I try to resolve and try to resolve stuff. But certainly at the minute, it's, it's very much intuitive, it's very kind of like, okay, and I do try to work with like a limited palette. I did, I got a book about color mixing, to Christmas before last, and I was like, oh my god, this is brilliant. Because this was like, a lot of like, you know, artists, when it first started off, you know, you want a tube of every color, you don't have to have a tumor, you have to have a tumor that, Oh, that's such a pretty color rubbish that, but I've kind of tried to pare it down note about like, maybe 10, you know, 10 colors, and I love blue. Like, there's so much blue, in my, you know, in my work Bush, I find like pink and green sofas actually come into a lot more, you know, kind of different variations, you know, now, so it's just, yeah, I find I find there's no set way. But at least if you leave yourself kind of open, you'd be surprised what comes through, you know, entity entities. Yeah, as I said, writing is definitely large refer in how it comes through soldiers, and I just let her just let her just let her come through, you know, and just like I'm writing blogs and stuff as well, at the minute, I'm doing 100 Day project at the moment. So I kind of tried to be kind of vigilant and writing blogs and that kind of thing, you know, kind of so I suppose all the dashes kind of helping things as well, and just kind of making things make more sense, you know, do you find do you do? Well, when you set yourself a task like that they you know, like, everyday, I'm going to do this, like it's do sort of stick to it pretty well. No? I, let's be honest. I, you know, if I set myself for, like, Oh, when I have to do blah, blah, blah, every single day, you know, I'm just like, Oh, really? No. But if I allow myself Okay, so look, this is the general schedule, this is my general idea. This is what I'm working towards. And if I can do a little bit every day, it didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I can, I can work towards it, and it works out, you know, but, you know, like, I wouldn't be like, my 100 Day project, it's about systems and sharing. So it's kind of, like, sharing on social media sharing, sharing, and podcasts. You know, and just kind of understanding, you know, about my connection, and you know, how to how to connect better with people, you know, that kind of thing and just trying to, you know, see what works better, you know, try to get regular racing, you know, and that kind of thing, you know, so it's, it's just, it's about building consistency, and connecting with the community and that kind of thing. So I find that there's a lot of value indoors. You know, some people are fantastic, and they paint every single day, you know, they might do like a mini painting every day. And it's just, it just wouldn't fit in my schedule. Like, I mean, there's some days where I just don't want to paint, there's some days where I just can't create, because it's been a long day, I've been up since whatever hour, you know, just work, you know, family life, you're doing dinner, you're doing this, you're doing that and you just want to sit down and watch Netflix, you know, you know, you have to you have to allow yourself that time as well and kind of try not to punish yourself for being human, you know, so like, like, from for me to undertake a project is very much, you know, trying to connect with the community trying to build consistency and work towards a greater goal. And by doing that, you know, it kind of works. It works better for me. Hmm, yeah, that's yeah, it's good. i If someone says to me, I have to do like a thing every day. I just shut down. I'm like, no, no, that's it. It feels so overwhelming, right from the start, you know, but yeah, but it does. Yeah, it does. Like I love to hashtag challenges. So there's a couple of hashtag challenges that I tried to kind of follow along with loosely every year. So in January, there's so the nerd paint podcast, they do 20 For 20 Day Challenge in January, you know, sort of painted or do something every day for 20 minutes, you can do that. Yeah, that's the TiVo. And there's a couple of artists that I follow that do hashtag challenges, especially at the start of the year. So Phoebe Gander, She's based in New Zealand. She does a 31 day challenge in January. And then Susan net of course, is in she's over in Ballarat actually puja. So yeah. It's really cool to see him extremely close to you. I'll say a few weeks ago, actually. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So yeah, yes, it's He does painting as a practice challenge in February. You know, so so like, there's various kind of hashtag challenges and stuff that you can follow this literally, like, there's a starting in the end, it's like, you know, one month, you know, you can, you can kind of achieve that, you know, and it's kind of I like to I like to follow along with those and, you know, it's, it's fun, I think it's good for you, because you kind of build, you build some consistency you build, you know, you can connect with people, you know, who are also doing it, that kind of thing. You know, so it's, it's, it's fun, but yeah, like that, you know, I mean, if I, you know, to take with the 100 day challenge, if I had to do something every day for 100 days. I feel like I was a failure. If I miss one day, you know, that can do it. Yeah. Yeah. So by giving myself Okay, 200 days, and I have, you know, kind of goals, kind of weekly goals that can change and try to hit and if I don't hate him, Okay, well, look, you know, do better next week. Yeah. Yeah. I always find it's nice to always to see what other people are doing as well, like I can, I can't get very inspired. There's so many screenshots I kept on my phone of people painting because they think, Oh, I love how they've done that. And I might not be like, I don't want to replicate their work. But there's an idea of how they used something to make a texture or they, you know, just some color combinations. Oh, wow. So I like I take a lot of inspiration from others. I don't end up necessarily always attempting it, but I like looking at it, you know? Yeah, but, but I think that's important to be able to sit back and relax and kind of take it in and think about stuff and look about look at things what you like what you don't like, do you do much painting? Yeah, I love I it's just a bit of fun. Just it's like my, just haven't done any for a while at the moment. And same thing, I've got to be right in the mood for or need to do it. But I just I just love messing around with it. Really? I enjoy. Yeah, enjoy. Yeah. Yeah, but it's fun. It's just I think it's, you know, what, it's just getting letting loose and, you know, trying out new things. And yeah, like that, you know, I think it's, it is important to sit down and look at, you know, consider your work, you know, that kind of thing and allow yourself time to sit with it and see, okay, well look, you know, whether it's writing, whether it's visual, you know, sitting down and taking it in and saying, okay, is this is this doing what I wanted to do? Or, you know, is there something else that it's, you know, trying to see, or that I need to see and darkening and also entities and we don't get enough time. You know, we're just very busy. We don't necessarily give ourselves enough time to kind of just sit back and say, you know, what, look, I just entered I do I like to do that sometimes, you know, even if I don't feel like creating, sometimes if you just go and sit with, you know, sit with yourself or look through your sketchbooks or through, you know, whatever, you know, or just play, you know, if you play an instrument, just, you know, clean, easy sound Did you like to play you know, and just, you know, just sit with that and enjoy it? And you know, there's so much value in that. And we don't we don't put enough emphasis on it. Yeah, I think yeah, this is this whole idea that something's got to have an outcome, like there has to be a result to something it can't just be for the sake of whatever, it has to have this outcome, this capitalist ideal that our society seen that, you know, and that's, that's why I like to talk about the value of art, you know, like, just because, like you talked about not selling it. That's, that's insignificant, I think, next to either the gain that you receive from your art and then others do by you sharing it, you know, it doesn't have to have this this end outcome. Would that look, that's a debt. Exactly, yes. You know, what I mean, I'm a better person, I'm a better person, I'm a better mother a better partner. Because it creates because I have that space to do something that I want to do. And, you know, and I can give myself permission, I don't have to answer to anyone else. I do what I want to do, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, and like, I mean, look, if you can make money from your art or you know, creating courses, you know about your art and that kind of thing. Fantastic. That's amazing. That is amazing. But, you know, creating for creating sake for yourself is valuable, too, you know, and we have an You know, and it's good, it's good to just be able to sit back and just relax and just look, look at what you've done. And just, you know, even if it's big, messy, you know, muddy, you know, Ting under, you know, an A pit and some paper and you're just like, 40s, this, if you enjoy the process, if you're, if you've after having a long day, if you just need to just just do something, there's value in it, because it's helped your mood, it's relaxed, you it's, you know, you process whatever you need to process and now you can say, okay, okay, read, you know, and you go from there. And that's, that's hugely valuable. And we need to do that, and we need to do have more times and, you know, why not allow ourselves to enjoy things that we enjoy? You know, yeah, that's so true. I know that I, I have times when I just think I, you just get so overwhelmed, like you were saying before, like the stuff in your head, and then physical stuff you've got to do, and you just go. And it's like, you have to reset yourself, it's like you have to recalibrate and having that timeout, like he said, where you're in charge of it, no one's telling you what to do. It's like your theme. It's, I couldn't live without it. Like, honestly, I would not be a sane person. If I couldn't do. That's exactly it. And, and that's, and that's where that's where the value is in it. You know, I mean, you know, we're humans are born to create, you know, I mean, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, inverted commas. Good. You know, I mean, 14 pot is good anyway, like, you know, I mean, I said already, you know, when somebody will look at my art to be like, Well, no, that's, that's not art, you know, that kind of thing. It's like, well, actually, yeah, yeah, she is, you know, okay, you have your opinion that that's fine. No water. But, you know, everybody's interpretation is different. You know, I mean, somebody might look at a photorealistic painting be like, that's beautiful. That's art. Whereas it might look at an abstract piece of like, what is this? You know, so it's so it's like, everybody's interpretation is different. And, you know, that doesn't diminish, you know, yeah, the value value of essence, you know, yeah. I think there's art to creativity is, like, hugely important. And, you know, for people who don't do it, or haven't given themselves permission to do it, you need to, you need to for you, it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter what it is, you know, if it's reading books, if it's playing computer games, if it's, you know, writing in a journal, if it's doodling on, you know, paper, if it's writing songs, if it's playing music, if it's listening to music, it was dancing in your kitchen, you know, if it's creating art, like creativity, and knowing yourself to tap into, you know, you know, your creative side, you know, kind of relax it, do it, do it, you know what I mean to work, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be good, you don't have to share it with anyone, like, you can create art, and not share it with anyone. And it can be just for you, or you can write and it can be just for you. And it's still valid. You know, it doesn't have to be seen to be valid, it doesn't have to have a monetary value to be valid. And, you know, I mean, if you can, and want to create, you know, an income from your art, or your creativity, or your creative practice, whatever it is, that's fantastic, too. I mean, that that should be celebrated. But I think we just need to celebrate, giving ourselves permission to do what we want, you know, and just go create and just, you know, use their hands, user minds user, you know, creative voice, whatever it is inside you and just let it out. And just Yeah, and just go for it. Yeah, that's so well said. Good on you, Jennifer. Honestly, it's been lovely chatting with you today. Thank you so much for having me on SSH and open I got your message and Instagram. I was like, this woman has been hacked. She wants to talk to me. Why? Because what you've, what you've shared today has been so valuable, and I appreciate it so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or so subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Carmen Bliss Australian holistic counceller S1 Ep17 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts **Please be aware this episode contains discussion about stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and procedures in the aftermath** My guest today is Carmen Bliss, holistic counsellor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counsellor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt - that we discuss in each episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business, Inspired Wellbeing Co. providing support for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion about self worth, identity, setting boundaries and the ego, where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experience with parenting, loss and finding your true calling in life. Connect with Carmen here - Connect with the podcast here - Music used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest today is Carmen bliss, holistic counselor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counselor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt that we discuss in every episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business inspired wellbeing co providing services for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experiences with parenting loss and finding your own true calling in life. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and the procedures in the aftermath. Today, I'm really excited to welcome a very special guest, a guest with a little bit of a difference. Welcome Carmen bliss, who's from inspired wellbeing code, you met Gambia thank you for coming on, Carmen, it's so lovely to have you. Thank you. It's, um, pleasure to be here. So I sort of thought I approached you because I've probably recorded 20 or so of these now, these chats with these artistic moms. And I have some particular topics that I love talking about. And they're the responses, I get a very different but quite similar in a lot of ways, but slightly different. And I thought, so I thought it was about time I spoke to someone who's got some expertise in this area, he could perhaps help shed a little bit of light on what's going on for moms when they're experiencing these things. Maybe some sort of ways we can look at it differently. To help us through before we delve into all of that nitty gritty stuff. Let's chat about you for a little while Carmen. So tell us a little bit about yourself and, and the business that you run and how you got into all that sort of stuff. Well, I probably fell into this profession, it was not a planned profession, my personality type, which you'll learn, I love all that sort of stuff. So as we go along our discussion, you'll pick up on bits and pieces that I'm really passionate about, including understanding personality types and stuff. My personality type is quite I don't want to use the word rigid, but it but it is like it's quite structured. I like structure I you know, like numbers, data, all that sort of stuff, which people who know me probably think, oh, I don't think so. But that that is the the crux of my personality. So I was never going to be a counselor. So even when I was working as a student counselor, I said I'm never training in counseling ever. It's not my thing. I don't like it, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then here I am, with my own piece was in counseling. Go figure. Um, so yeah, so I sort of got into the business because of a few personal situations that kind of changed my view on the world. Like it was like a not like a wake up moment or I suppose it was a wake up moment, but like a daunting period. And then if that's the right word, but you kind of know what I mean. And what you think okay, life's not as black and white as I've made it out to be for the last 36 years or 35 years or whatever, it was 32 years you know, I was very black and white before before that point. So yeah, here I am doing counseling which I never thought I would be doing. Yeah, so family I've got a lovely husband who we've been together nearly 20 years I think next year, which is seems like a long time. I'm still learning things about him every day. Which is probably a good thing because it keeps me interested. I've got two children. And Harrison he just turned 13 on the weekend. Lucky he's a pretty quiet child. So we haven't really hit that crazy teenage stage yet. I mean, there are, you know, the smelly bedroom and not showering and the greasy pair of the pimples and stuff. But yeah, nothing outrageous, which I'm thankful for. And then I've got my daughter Anna, who's just turned seven in August. And yeah, God help us when she turns 13. Because it's a completely different story. I've been managing her behavior since she was two. So just yeah, she she, her here as a teenager, I'm just pretty apprehensive about that. We'll deal with it when it comes. And then. So my family journey hasn't been like an easy one, obviously. So we had Harrison, he was not planned. So I was only 25 not really thinking about kids, you know? And then Oh, hello, I'm pregnant. But we owned our own house. And you know, we're in a really good position. We have jobs, and you know, everything like that. So yeah, wouldn't change it for the world. Absolutely. So then, when Harry was about three, we started trying for another baby, and had three miscarriages sort of in a row. Didn't really get to the point of testing, like, what, why there was a few things like to think it's progesterone levels, and just little things like that. But then fell pregnant with Anna after that, and she was just like, a normal, healthy kind of pregnancy. So it was, yeah, it was a bit weird. And then we lost a baby through stillbirth when Anna was two, so that that kind of put us you know, you know, the whole family situation number one, like that was unplanned. So you know, you have those freak outs, like, Oh, my God, like, Baby number three, what the hell are we gonna do? You know, I love my job, I don't think I want to take maternity leave, you know, all that sort of stuff. At the time, I was earning more than Brad. So you know, tossing up? Does he be the stay at home dad, and all of that sort of stuff. So you kind of go into this whirlwind, and I went into denial. So I think because it rocked our world so much. And because Anna was still only like one and a half to when we fell pregnant. But yeah, with the third baby. And so went into kind of like, I don't think I want this baby. Like, you know, there was all that, like self talk. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle three kids, you know, and as Harry was this perfect textbook, baby, you know, that slept through the night and his cot from day one. You know, he was just like this perfect baby. And then Anna came, and it was like, holy shit. Why don't we? why don't why did we choose to go back? No, she's got the biggest heart. But the biggest personality? So. Yeah, so she's totally and I'm trying to manage a two year old and then yeah, we bang. We're pregnant again. So yeah, I felt in those early stages, I felt like I didn't want to be pregnant, I, you know, was in a lot of denial and stuff. And then when we went to our ultrasound and at 20 weeks and found out that we lost the baby, then all the guilt started. Because you know, you think you think was that? Like, did I do this by wishing it away? Did I do this by thinking that I don't want this baby, you know, all that sort of stuff sort of starts to creep in. But luckily, I've got a really, really good support network around me. But it wasn't easy. I don't think anyone tells you about these things. So like I had to give birth. So so it's like no one tells you that. You know, do you get what I mean? Like now you think but you know, people say oh, you know, we've had a stillbirth, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But they don't actually say, Oh, you have to give birth. You know, like the follow up stuff. Yeah, so I was completely shocked by that. Because I was like, oh, like, I don't know whether I can do that. I don't know whether I can, like, you know, go into a labor room and give birth to a baby that's not alive. You know, like that. That was a really big fear. And I think that's the point where I really broke down. Like when the doctor told me that I had to give birth like I was kind of not in shock. But yeah, in I don't know. Yeah, it would be shocked, I suppose. And I hadn't showed any full on emotion yet. Obviously, it's a whirlwind. But when the doctor said, and I was so lucky, I had an amazing doctor. And it was, you know, when people were there, the right people at the right time. She was One of those people because she was literally only my doctor for six months. And it was that period where I got pregnant, and then lost the baby. And she was there through the whole thing. And then she was gone. She just left town. So it's like, so weird. She was she was obviously there for the right time, you know, the right time for me. So she was amazing. And she was really comforting and talked to me through the whole thing. And yeah, and the midwives at the hospital were also really, really amazing. So I feel like I had, like, the support that I that I needed, like, throughout that whole journey, even though it's you know, it's horrible. It's I'm probably speaking about it. Maybe some people think candidly, but I've processed a lot of that stuff. You know, I've worked very hard over the last five years to, to process, all of that. So, you know, and had intense counseling myself, and to sort of work through all of that. And but yeah, the midwives were amazing. And I just remember this, this one, there was two main midwives and there was one whose name was Gloria. Oh, yeah. You know, her. I know, Gloria. Yeah. How amazing is she? Yeah, she, she, I think she's still working up there. Like she's been. But yeah, I think she just recently retired, oh, God, cuz she was there. When we had ally eggs. She's like, like, I've got seven years between my two. So she was there when I had Alex 13 years ago, nearly 14 years ago. And then she was still there. When I had Digby, and we were just like, Oh, my God. And actually, I'm digressing now. But she was the first person I told about my, when I was up there, my postnatal depression was coming back. And so I just trusted her so much. She was just like the most like, she'd just come in. And she'd just sit down and have a chat. And my husband thought she was awesome. Like, she was just here. So like, Gloria was there for the first half of the labor. And she was just like, this guardian angel, I suppose, you know, that had been sent to nurture me in that time. And, you know, she she was telling me about how, you know, how many of the births that are not live for her, you know, in her whole career standard? Yeah. So she, she told me about, you know, all the pregnancies and births and everything that she had come across in her career and what her life was like, and, yeah, that she didn't have any children of her own. I think she was, like, am I right in saying Not, not a nun, but something similar to that, like a sister or something? Yes, she was. She was a sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she she served, you know, in that way, sort of got in that way? I suppose. So yeah. And then there was another lady Fiona, who, who actually was there when I when I birth Lucy. And she was amazing as well, like, she was just so amazing. But no one tells you about all this stuff. And you know, that I think that's the hardest thing that I found is, you know, no one tells you those steps. And I don't know, maybe it's better to be naive. Yeah, I don't know. And I think the hardest part of that, because when you're in labor, like they drug you up. Yeah. Like you can say no, obviously. But yeah, that emotional and you know, you just want to be a bit numb. Which was probably, I don't know, I don't think I would have changed that. Because you just want you don't want any pain, you know, it's not like you're going to be rewarded at the end, you know, you just want to be numbed out for a little bit. But probably the hardest part of that, of that whole process was like walking out with without a baby. So like that, like you're in the maternity ward with with everybody else, and you have to exit that maternity ward with no baby. So that was probably, I felt like I was like the walker shame almost like people were looking, you know, I don't know, it was just a really weird experience. And quite confronting, like, that was pretty, you know, because, you know, you imagine, you know, and because I've had two children, you know, I have experienced this before, you know, that feeling when you're taking your baby home, and you're like, you know, it's just such a big moment of putting the baby in the capsule and getting it in the car. And, you know, all of that. So yeah, it was like the complete opposite of that. So yeah, it was really weird. And Gloria sent me and it's like, blew me away. She sent me a postcard Exactly a year later, on the exact date that I gave birth, saying, like, how she was still thinking about me and that she was in some conferences and midwifery conference and yeah, she was thinking about the date and yeah, like I bawled my eyes out. When I received that in the post because I was like, oh, How does she have time to even remember these dates? And she said like it was on the date. So yeah, I keep that because Oh, yeah, I made you cry now. Oh my Well, sharing that yeah honestly. Bla bla bla so I lean I, it's not that. And I know people talk about grief differently. And I know that it's very different for every individual. You know, I've worked with grief in my counseling work, you know, I understand that people handle grief and loss differently. But I had a period of denial, not denial of what had happened. Denial of my feelings. You know, like, I just shut them all the way. I didn't want to process them. Yeah, so that was for about a year. Then, then it came like that, then all of the emotions came and I had to get counseling and stuff because I ended up with post traumatic stress disorder, because I had quite an invasive operation afterwards. Which looking back now I if I could preach one thing to to young women, or young mums even is make informed decisions about your, about your own body. So I was tucked into a procedure and ablation of the uterus when I didn't actually need it. And it was one of the most invasive procedures that I've had, because it was really like, extremely painful. And now I don't, and I can't have children anymore because of it. And it was quite soon after that stillbirth. So the gynecologist who I won't name shouldn't not like they shouldn't be making people who've just gone through that make those decisions. Yeah. It's not an informed decision. How can you make a decision like that when you're not in the right frame of mind? And the same as Brad, so he was booked in for a vasectomy? Already. Like before, we found out that we were pregnant with Lucy. And so then all of this happened, and it was about three months later. And he was still booked in for this discectomy. And, you know, like, we kind of discussed it and everything but looking back like you don't i don't know you can't you're not in the right frame of mind to December the never gonna have children again. I mean, I didn't find pregnancy easy. So I'm not sure that I would have gotten back for another pregnancy anyway. But it's nice to have the option, isn't it? Yeah, that's thing, isn't it? Yeah. That's that's quite appalling. Isn't it to fronted with that? It's such a when you're so vulnerable, and obviously not having the time to, like you said, to find out what you need to find out and the ramifications of this. Yeah, that's That's appalling. Yeah, so yeah, you're working through that as well. As Yeah, so yeah, yeah. So that's a grief and loss in itself. Because, you know, as a woman, we have periods, and then there was no longer so that's a that's a grief and loss in itself. And yes, it's fantastic. Not bleeding every month. But also, I feel like something's missing. Some months, you know, like, that's a process that we get used to it. It's a womanly thing. Yeah, it's spiritual and all the rest of it. So yeah, I ended up with PTSD, because that operation didn't go as planned. And a few few hiccups went wrong when I was going under, and yeah, so then I was presented with, you know, having these panic attacks, you know, multiple times a day and just felt completely out of control for probably three, three to four, three years, probably three, three solid years. Oh, wow. I didn't Yeah, I didn't want to go on medication or anything, because medication has its place. Absolutely. Like I am not anti medication, but for me and my body and knew that it wouldn't be the right choice. So and only because I'm so sensitive to all of that sort of stuff. Like I know that my body would have probably reacted, you know, unpleasant way rather than helping the situation. So yeah, I just got intensive intensive counseling and yeah, worked through it that way. And I mean, I still have anxiety a little bit and still moments. have panic every now and again. But it's pretty much under control at the moment. Yes, my family laughs and Poor Anna, she was too when all this happens. So I feel like we're having a lot of issues with her at the moment. And I feel like some of it has contributed to my probably lack of emotional availability around that time. All right, well, I'm gonna take you back right back to the start. You refer to yourself as a holistic counselor, can you share what that holistic element means? And how that changes? How you approach your work? Yeah, sure, um, I like the word holistic, because I don't believe counseling is just of the mind to holistic when when you talk about counseling is mind body spirit. So not only are we looking at what's going on in the mind, but the mind doesn't operate separately from the body, and separately from spirit, or energy, and genetics. So holistic integrates everything. So, you know, not only are we looking at what thought patterns and, you know, are detrimental to your mental health? Well, no, I don't even like the I know that the word mental health is, is recognized. And I don't know what else I would call it. But it's not just mental health. It's like Holistic Health, because every little bit contributes to the mental health. So when I practice, I look at the people's lifestyle, like are they sleeping? Because sleep has an a massive detrimental impact on mental health? Are they really low in vitamin D? I mean, I can't test that I'm not a medical doctor. But I will always suggest that they go and have a look at their blood work. Because if they're hugely low on vitamin D, or hugely, you know, they're not taking magnesium or just a really simple stuff, then that affects your mental health. You know, are they having bodily symptoms that they think are normal, but actually contributed to their mental health? Like their nervous systems on regulated? And then the energetics of it, you know, are you in a environment where there's yelling and screaming every day or, you know, that plays a part in your spirit and your energetics, which then plays a part on your mental health? You know, so that's kind of the holistic thing that we look at. It certainly is all it all. Everything affects everything else, doesn't it? It's not. Like I think the Western doctors way of treating the what do they do they treat the symptoms instead of treating the cause? It's like, they just look at one thing in isolation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's probably what spurred me on to, to look at the holistic stuff is, you know, I had like, some really significant sort of adrenal issues, that the Western doctors ah, made me feel horrible. You know, they they made me feel like I was making it up. Yeah, because they didn't have they didn't have an answer for it. So it must have been. Yeah, it must just be all in your head. You know, it takes me back to the description, when psychology was first around of hysteria. You know, like so, you know, women who are young mothers would be diagnosed with hysteria, which means, these days that they're not coping, you know, they might have postnatal depression, or they might have really bad anxiety. But back then, it was just labeled hysteria, and I feel like that has, you know, in the western Doctor world, they don't use the word hysteria, but basically, I was told that I was tired, or bored housewife. And I was working for 40 work. So yeah, that's what made me so passionate about holistic. Hmm. You'd never say that someone in a medical setting these days? No, and I think because psychology was so new. You know, like, it's such an emerging field and the I'm sorry if I bore you with the details of the history and stuff. Like that sort of stuff. but back then they didn't believe that the brain like they didn't know about neuroplasticity. So if someone was in that state, you know, quote unquote hysteria, or you know, soccer or whatever, they didn't understand that that could be changed. They just labeled that person and put them incident in, in an institution. And they never got the chance to actually heal. Yeah, so all these people who were labeled, you know, hysterical or psycho or, you know, needed to be institutionalized. And they didn't believe that the brain could change. So that's where the research is now that the brain can change. And we can mold, mold, neural pathways to be in a better shape than what they were, you know, when we were suffering from mental health or experiencing anxiety or depression or whatever. Yes, you've definitely come a very long way, very, very long. So the there's two, two topics that I love to talk about. And so they are the mum guilt, which I like to put in inverted commas because and the second one is identity. So the way that when a woman becomes a mother, how they see themselves changes. So well, let's let's do the mum guilt first. So, do you have any idea? I'm really intrigued by this? And I'll ask you this question. And you might not know and that's fine. But where did this term come from? Like, how was it created? Is it been like a social media hashtag like? Or is it like people who have to label things we have to call something we have to have a term for everything? What What's your take on that? I think it's, and I don't know, I only know I'm not an expert, or I don't know, like, this is only my opinion. One person. I feel like it's a product of social media, the media. Because when, like when I had my son, I was 25. Like social media had only just started because don't forget, I'm old. I'm, and I wasn't on social media. I didn't look at websites. I just parented from my heart, with my mom's advice, kind of like the traditional way that people would parent without all of this outside influence. And the only time I experienced mum guilt was when I put my son in childcare. And he didn't, he didn't gel with the carer for the first probably three months. But I don't, I can, I felt guilty I did, I felt guilty for dropping him off there. Because he wasn't settled. You know. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure, and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around then you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say, I'm not a I'm not a person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I'm not that person. I work I thrive off work. I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a mum is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. And I did feel guilty for for because my child was quite upset in those first three months. But you know what, once we found the right fit, once we found the right person to care for him in that childcare setting. He absolutely loved it and he thrived. So I didn't have that. That my mum guilt. So I feel like mum guilt is a product of everybody else's judgment of what society should or shouldn't do or be. And then we take that on that we take that those feelings on from externally internally And then they manifest. And I don't think that's right. Oh, yeah, I don't think it's as a man, like, you're going to be very different to me, you know, do you get what I mean? Like, we can't see a social media stereotype of a mum and say, we all have to fit in that round peg, when we're triangles square diamond. That makes sense. And I can sort of sense perhaps the connection, then you talked at the beginning briefly about the personality types. So it's like, everyone will experience things different because of the way just the way they are. Don't get me started about the patriarchal stuff that goes, get started on it. Because I would call myself like a feminist because I hate patriarchal systems, I, it actually makes me feel physically sick to my core. And I don't know whether that's, you know, from my past life, so, you know, whatever happened there, or because I've always had great men figures in my life, my husband is like, absolutely amazing. Like, honestly, like, we share hubs in everything, like, he comes in, and he does the dishes, or I'll go outside and weed the garden or, like he is, yeah, really, really amazing. I'm so blessed to have someone like that. So it's not because I haven't had these, you know, beautiful men, male figures in my life. It's just the systems. And what a mum, the word Mum, I suppose the peaks is, you stay at home, you look after the kids. And that's it. You do all the stuff around the house, you do all the washing. And I feel like that. That's society's mo of what a mother should do look like, etc. We shouldn't be going to the gym because mums shouldn't be doing that we shouldn't be spending money on ourselves because, you know, earning any money. You know, like, all of that is bullshit. Like, I really despise that patriarchal kind of thing. And that is sometimes where I think this mom guilt comes from, like it's generational trauma of having this patriarchal system. That is outdated. And really sexist. Hmm. Yep. So that's the other part of it. Yeah. So it's almost like, because women men the way that they mother is changing. They've got to be reined back in. So they've got to be made to feel guilty to pull them back to this the traditional way that they're supposed to supposed to be mothering. I've used a lot of lately. Yeah, absolutely. And why aren't we, you know, why aren't big organizations, including family daycare as part of their well being program at work? So mothers can return to work when they want to? You know, why do we have waiting lists of hundreds of children at childcare? Like, why aren't we doing something about that? You know, so women can actually get back into the workforce, and do what they love? Or, you know, you get what I mean? It's a big problem. Oh, yeah. So I guess then people experience it differently then, because of how they were parented, what their role model then was from their mother, maybe they feel guilt because they're doing something different to their mother, or what do you think about the way that perhaps the other women and other mothers? What's their role in driving this as well? Because I feel like, I know, we're getting better at it. But I feel like there's a lot of judgment, from mums to other mums and women that don't have children, they're judging mothers. We've got a lot of work to do there, too. I feel Do you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it really stems back to the basic values and beliefs. And yes, role models come into the values and beliefs of people. So we grow up with a certain set of values. So our core values pretty much don't change throughout our lives. They might change slightly. And, and if you have ever come and done any of my counseling, you know, come and done counseling with me. You know, there's a few key things that I bang on about which probably people get sick of hearing. And one of them is values and beliefs. Because values are our core values. So it might be you know, a set of values that don't change that inherently ingrained in us from from our parents or whatever. And then we have beliefs on top of that. So values are things like, like family, so like, you know, I value family a lot, because you know, I'm very close to my family, I get a lot of support from my family, I love my family dearly. So that is one of my core values is having family around me and having them support me. And, you know, if I go a month without seeing my mother, I'd probably, you know, gets a bit tense, you know, we have a really good relationship. So that's a that's like a core value. And then we have these beliefs on top of that. So beliefs are a little bit more they are what can be changed and influence. And as we grow and evolve, they change and open and all the rest of it. So I feel like everyone has that. But what we need to work on and you talk about moms being judgmental towards other moms, etc. is actually a lack of awareness for our, and I'm going to speak in riddles, probably. Yeah. So pull me up if you don't understand anything, because probably I need to explain it a bit more. But the opinions and judgments of other people towards other people, whether that be mums to mums etc, or non working or non mothers to mothers is a lack of self awareness and reflection. about unconscious bias. Yeah, explain that a little bit. Yeah. So I'll try and put it in simple terms. Okay. So if we think about a drug addict, right? Some people might think that it's their fault, that they can stop anytime that they want, that they have control over what they're doing. And they want to penalize that person. I think that, for me, is a underdeveloped opinion of a drug drug addict, because that has unconscious bias behind it. They don't know what that person has gone through in the in the startup their life, to the trauma that they've experienced, and the depth of the pain and emotional pain that they're trying to numb or, or whatever it might be. They don't need prison, they need healing. So that would be being aware of the unconscious bias, because once upon a time, I would have been the person that said, drug addicts need to go to prison, because they're just ruining life for everybody else, you know, like criminal criminal behavior, etc. But because my beliefs have evolved, I can now see a hole a picture. So instead of looking through a pinhole, we're now looking through a 20 centimeter diameter window. So it kind of makes sense. Yeah. So it's like you, maybe because of the way you grew up, or the way you your parents views where you've got that in. And so you have that until that time where you have whatever happens in your life, for whatever reason, or you start to educate yourself, whatever, you can change your opinion. So that unconscious bias is what you just have in New necessarily without realizing that's just how you see things, I guess. Is that Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah. And there's a there's a saying, and I've got to get it right. You don't know what you don't know. Until you know more. Yeah, so that information, like informed like those informed beliefs. And not everyone wants to have informed beliefs or decisions. It's hard. It's actually very challenging. And it's sometimes it's just easier not to. Yeah. Because you're not going to change somebody else to change their beliefs. Unless they're coming to you because they want to change, which is in my holistic counseling situation. They're coming because they want to be there. Yeah, they pay to be there they want they're paying me to help them to change their beliefs. But if you have someone that doesn't want to change, then there's no way that anyone else is going to check. You can argue with them until the mangoes blue, they're not going to change their beliefs because you told them to. Yeah, when you're talking about this, I'm just reminded of actually my father in law. We caught up with him on the weekend and he's in his early 80s. And we had this discussion about because I said about how childcare is really busy and we're, we're really full up at the moment. He says I do do you accept children from mums who don't work? I said, Yeah, we do. said Ah, I don't I agree with that. You said mums should be home with the children. And I went into this great big rampage about what so what's great about childcare, what's for the children and for the moms and I said, all this stuff, and you just don't know, whatever. I thought you haven't heard a single. I've said, like, literally, you have this as if you've got your beliefs, and you're not changing your beliefs. It doesn't matter how long I went on about my great, big, impassioned views of what I think so great about Chuck. That's great. Yeah, it's a prime example. And the only way that we can help people view the world differently, or view the situation differently as be a good role model. not preach, we don't, I don't preach to people, I don't, you know, lay it on the line of what they have to change. I'd be a good role model. You know, I talk about the science behind it, and you know, why things are better, you know, try and give them information, which doesn't, I don't, with no expectation information with no expectation. You couldn't have given your father in law, all of that information, and then expect it to change for him to change his belief. Because that expectation leads to disappointment on your behalf, which leads to anger on on your behalf. So we have to give people information without expectation. And I think a lot of the time people expect people to change because of their own. You know, if they've shared information, they expect that person to change straightaway. Which is just ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Cuz then they get disappointed and and then it affects relationships, then it doesn't it? It's like, yeah, absolutely. Yes, so identity, let's talk about that. The reality that when you have a child when you become a mother, that the way that you see yourself changes, and I guess that can also be influenced by society as well, about how you're supposed to see yourself. It really is the words I've heard mothers talk, like, they've experienced, like an identity crisis, basically, who am I, what am I, I only exist for this child. So what does that mean for you know, who I was before? It's in a grieving process to I suppose of the life that's, that's lost? Yeah. Share what you are how you feel about that. I definitely went through that. But probably, and a little bit when when I became a mother, like a little bit, but probably more so when I was forced to make a decision about whether to leave a job or not. And that was a important high up job. And I had this identity crisis around that. But as a mother, I think, this identity crisis, because literally, like, at the start of this year, I had an elderly couple come in, and they said we want to do couples counseling. And I said, okay, like, yeah, like, Absolutely, everyone's welcome. And I think they would have been in their late 70s. Um, he was quite active in the community. So, you know, he did lots of stuff around the, around their local community, and it's quite involved, and she just sat at home. And it just blew my mind that she had no purpose in her life. Other than being at home and doing the stuff at home. So she still hadn't found her identity from when she had kids like 50 years ago, for the last 50 years, she had not had her identity. And whether she even had that identity before she had kids, because don't forget, that was in a different era, like women, you know, to be seen and not heard, you know, married quite young, and that was their purpose, to marry to have children and to look after the house like that was their purpose. Yeah. And she spoke about being really sad and, you know, not looking forward to the future and really resentful that he was out doing things in his community. so I gently sort of spoke to her about finding her identity again. What are the things she loves to do? You know, does she love to go and have coffee with friends? Does she love to go hiking? Does she love to go dancing? And including some of those things in her life again. And she was really she really had a lot of trouble understanding that she can and has permission to to find all those things again. Yeah, that's literally give her permission to find all those things again, because she she thought that that was not okay. Yeah, when you were saying that I was the word permission was going through my mind too. It's like she was actually saying, Is it okay if I actually do this? Like? That's yeah. That's quite fun, isn't it? That's someone's Yeah. Wow. So, the back the mums that I work with, quite often who, you know, either their child's just gone to school, or they're a little bit older, and they're in childcare or the mums going back to work or whatever, is always around identity. And it's also around the self worth. So thinking of yourself as worthy. And I always say to them, Why aren't you worthy? Give me you know, give me a good reason why you aren't worthy to have two hours to yourself on a Thursday night to do whatever you want. Like, why are you not worthy of that? You know, so it's really, that identity thing is, again, I feel like it's patriarchal in society, you know, born from society. And then when social media comes along, it's like, it's amplified, like, 200% with this massive magnifying glass. I, I actually, I know, social media has its place. But it's destructive and damaging. And I can you know, in my other job, I am in high school counseling, high school students. And I just cannot even fathom why they enter into this bullshit on their phones, like I just. And these kids are, like, literally stuck to their phone and have probably the worst self esteem issues that I have ever come across. And it just blows me away. And it saddens me, It saddens me to the core, that these young girls, you know, starting at, say 1312, or 13, probably even know probably 11, they're starting at 11. Like caring so much about what other people think of them. Like, that's what they base their whole life on. And then, of course, then we have the identity stuff that comes later with with moms. And I know that, you know, it might be two different topics, but I think they're into the interplay because of the self worth stuff. Absolutely. I think it's almost scary to think how these young girls now and how they're going to cope with that motherhood. Because of the they've been in this world. I think it's interesting, like people like you and I, and probably a lot of people listening to this did live in a world before social media. So we can look at that and go, like my son, and something will happen. And I'll boost like, ah, that's no big deal. You know, because I'm not I have the hindsight and whatever I've lived that I've lived in a lot longer than him. And I can say that, obviously, that's not very helpful to him. But we know there's a world outside of social media, but for them, their whole world is that tiny, whatever exists on that phone. And it's really quite scary that absolutely, and I agree. And it leads to this identity and, and even identity, and I know, this is the probably not the identity that you're speaking about. But, um, gender identity. You know, a lot of the young people at the moment, you know, that plays into the identity because they have got so much information at their fingertips. It's like, this is like before the internet before social media, etc. You had to go and you had to look up scientific papers and encyclopedias, you know, remember those big Oh, yeah, like 100 of them? Yep. You know, it was it was qualified information. So you had to go and do research. Whereas now you can just type in Google. And it's not quantified information. It's not research backed. It's not evidence based. It's not. So I feel like the kids get overwhelmed. Like instead of just sitting with themselves sitting still within themselves or exploring the outside Oddworld all that information is just like an information superhighway. And it's just bombarding and it's confusing is honestly confusing for them. And I feel like that's the same with moms as well, you know, especially with raising babies, etc. Is that information overload. But I think the identity of mums, I hope that it's changing. And I think it is slowly but it's like, really, really slowly. It's like the snail. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hope that we can instill enough self worth in these mums to say that raising a baby is a two person job, you know, if you have got a partner, you know, that that other partner needs to step up. Or if you're a single mom, that doesn't have that partner, having that support network that they can call on, you know, to be able to take the baby for, you know, a day or a couple of hours or whatever. So the mom can actually fight, like, find herself and do things for herself. And I get it, like, when you're immersed in that newborn stage, you know, like, it's full on like that you live in breathing. Like it's, it's pretty suffocating. Like, you know, you're sleep deprived, your brains not functioning properly, you feel like, you know, you're either, you know, depending on how you feed, you either got the baby stuck to your boob or heating up bottles or sterilizing bottles. The hours on end. Yep. Okay, you do you fall into this world of just Baby, baby, baby. But I think at some point, when the baby gets out of that, being dependent on mum stage all the time, then we have to start exploring ourselves again, as Mum, you know, as as Carmen or Alison. Yeah, as a mum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And being confident enough to, like you said, ask for help. Using fit like, yeah, it really comes down to it really comes down to but the heart of this, from my perspective, anyway, the building up that self worth, so to feel like, you can ask for help, like, you're worthy enough to have that conversation with your partner and say, Can you please do this? Or I need your help, what can you help with for, you know, reaching out to people and then feeling confident enough in the way that you are parenting in the way that you are? living your own life that you don't feel so influenced by what you see around you, whether it is social media, or what were the what your best friend's doing? Or that kind of thing? Would that be? fair comment? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Um, and I feel like teaching our young girls self worth, you know, that's where it really starts doesn't, you know, teaching our young boys how to, you know, be sensitive and all the rest of it, you know, in tune with their emotions and all the all of that sort of stuff, and then with our young girls teaching themselves where. Like, I'm a huge believer of boundaries. I feel like women who don't necessarily have an identity or feel lost in their identity, don't have boundaries, because they feel like they need to please everybody else. And so that's, you know, another thing that I do harp on about is having these boundaries, you know, saying no to things, you know, not being afraid to upset people, because at the end of the day, you have to honor who you are and what resonates with you. And it is kind of like the whole the holistic picture, you know, you've I'm very introverted. So, you know, if I was to if you were to invite me to a big party, Allison, like, if I didn't have an identity, I might say yes, because I feel like I need to appease you by coming. But me as Carmen says, that environment and would really, really drain me. So it's not even about feeling uncomfortable because at this point in my life, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. I have a cold shower everyday like, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. So it's not about feeling uncomfortable in that environment. Although I would sit, you know, I would feel uncomfortable, but it's about okay, if I go to that party. So say if I go at eight, and I don't leave till 12am, Around 50 people that I don't know, I have to exchange small talk with 50 people that I don't know. That to me would take two days to recover from energetically. Yeah, be that be that draining and that, yeah. But you know, like, maybe 10 years ago, I would have gone to that party. And then and then wondered why I felt like shit for two days afterwards. But you know, like an extrovert. So my mom's really extroverted. So that would be her ideal situation to go to a party with 50 people that she didn't know. And I think that's part of our, you know, part of this identity stuff as well is learning. What gives us energy, what drains our energy, you know, what do we love? What don't we like, you know, exploring all of that stuff. Because that becomes the foundations of your identity, and being more authentic to yourself. Hmm. And actually like recognizing, because I'm, I, I'm sort of guessing, but there might be people listening today that might not have made that connection between that city save being in a situation that wasn't that great for you. And then you didn't realize why you felt pretty ordinary, you know, in the next day or the day after. So making those connections and realizing that there is more, maybe there's more to it than what we think there is if that's the way Yeah, absolutely. And also, it's about because if you have no boundaries, so say, say if I said yes to your party, then you you might feel great about that. But if I was to if I was to have the confidence to say no to your party, that takes a certain level of self worth, from me to say no, because I might think Alison won't like me anymore, because I didn't come to our party. Together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think the more you know, yourself, the more you're self aware about what what works for you, which is part of the holistic counseling process is, is rediscovering what, what works for you. And makes you and maybe for the first time actually looking at that, like, like, we talked about the lady before in your 70s that maybe wasn't even had that self awareness to actually go there. Their whole life maybe? Absolutely. And I feel like the identity comes from the seasons in our life as well. People get lost in the seasons in their life. So we give ourselves labels. So you know, mum is a label. You know, that's a season in our life where we're raising children. But then, you know, maybe after I have the stillbirth, I get, you know, rabbit holed into looking at support groups for stillbirth and everything and then I become Carmen who had a stillbirth. Does that make sense? Oh, Carmen, who works at dot, dot, dot dot, like this, this identity thing comes with these seasons in our lives. But it takes a lot to shed that ego because it is ego. Like when we identify with these things that we attached to. It takes a lot of, you know, courage and bravery to get rid of all those layers. And just be Common. Common. That's it. No labels attached. It's just me. This is who I am. You know, without all of that. Kind of makes sense. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and courageous enough to actually look at yourself. Like take away all those things that you think you are, or that you're seen to be? And just look at, actually, who is this person without? Yeah, without all that stuff? Why? Why do we have this obsession with labels? Like even when I start to speak to you, I asked you what, what do you call yourself? Like, you know, why do we have this thing that we've got to know? It's an E, it's definitely an ego thing. And it's not even like a conscious ego thing. You know, it's like when you say, when you when you meet someone for the first time, you know, say you're at a networking, lunch or whatever. And, you know, you say to people, well, Hi, I'm Carmen, and they say, Hi, I'm Allison. And then I say, what do you do? What does it matter what you do? Yeah. It's I'm here to meet Alison, you know, not Allison, who is the podcast person What do you call yourself? Podcast fears? It's not common the holistic counselor, yes, it's common. Yeah. Because there's so much. There's so much. I don't I don't know if this is the right way. So but there's so much more to pick a person and then just how they, how someone perceives them. So like, he could say, I'm Alison, that, that I, I am a mom of two and they'd go Alright, so that's what you are. You don't do anything else you have nothing else that you do. That's what you are, you know? Maybe pigeonhole. You don't mean, hmm. That's very interesting, isn't it? It is, it's very interesting. It's, and it takes guts to and vulnerability to stand there and say, I'm calm and full stop. Yeah, you're leaving yourself wide open for people to make their own opinions. Which kind of weapon enough to not care about that. Which is when you have when you have that self worth, then you can stand there and say, Hi, I'm Allison booster. And let you know and the way on the other side of things, if you know, if you are meeting someone new or whatever, and you don't want to subscribe to, you know, the labels or whatever. You can use curiosity. So, you know, Hi, I'm Carmen. I like to read, Allison. You know, you say Hi, I'm Allison. And I say, oh, Allison, what are some of your favorite things? Be curious about your person? Yeah. Tell me tell me about what you enjoy doing? Or, you know, yeah, it's not reaching for this, this label to describe someone. And it's almost like you feel when someone tells you the label, you feel like you found out all about them. It's like you've you've created that image, in your mind are what they are. And it's like, well, that's I don't need to know any more about you, you know, but then when you have that conversation, you actually, like you said, Be curious. Yeah, it's a completely different way of looking at it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if anyone will take that tip and try that at the next networking function are the x winning from a meeting some people are really. In spite of all Benko is on Instagram, we are on Facebook. And the sad thing about LinkedIn people told me that I need to know more about LinkedIn, but I'm there somewhere. I do check it occasionally. But yeah, you can just reach out and if you have any questions, you can email me and pretty responsive on on email and pretty try to be pretty responsive, responsive on social media as much as I can, at the moment. And have got one day a week where I'm canceling. Like for the full day. Again, I have to be careful with my energetic so I you know, I'm not I don't want to be a business. That's five days a week. I couldn't handle that. Unless I employ someone else. So yeah, and at the moment, I'm like, completely booked apart from one appointment for October, and which I'm truly truly grateful for. But it doesn't make it easy to get in. But what I say to people is please just always message me because if I get enough people I will open another day. It's just Yeah, balancing that. Yeah, get in touch. Like if you're if you're thinking about counseling or have any questions or just want to ask me a question, like I always am open for those questions. Yeah, that's lovely. And yeah, I think if anyone that's listening today if it's sort of sparked something in them that they think oh, I'd like to know more about that. Yeah, definitely reach out to Carmen I'll put all the links in the description so you'll be able to find it that's yeah, it's that's it you're so you're very very authentic person because you're like you said your your energy it's you have to be aware of yourself so you could go you know, like I think there's this idea in business that business has to be this great aggressive well that you know, the be all and end all everyone has to be busy, busy, busy, busy, busy at the at the expense of everything else in their life. That you're you're saying and you're you are showing that that is not how it works. And you can actually that's, again, you're setting your boundaries, you're respecting yourself your own self worth. So you're living the talk, you're literally living what you what you don't say you're practicing what you preach. You know what I mean? Like you are modeling. This is this is how I want to live my life. This is how I want to run my business. This is what's important to me. So I think that's, that's fantastic. It's, you're very, I'm not perfect. Oh, no one's perfect. Put that out there. Like, you know, I'm authentic 85% of the time, the other 15% I question myself and go, should I be, you know, aggressively marketing to you what I mean, like you always have that, those self reflection points. So, you know, we're not I'm not, you know, always. You've always got to have self reflection and awareness, I think is my point. Yeah, navel gazing. Yeah, exactly. Being still in the moment and absolutely about me waiting. Yeah. It's been a really, really enlightening episode, and I really appreciate you sharing and sharing so honestly, your own storytelling and I'm really grateful for your time calm and thank you. No, thank you, Allison. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be on here. So yeah, thank you. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben habit. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Bianca Morra US photographer + podcaster S2 Ep58 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Bianca Morra, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland Ohio and a mother of 2. Throughout her schooling Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path. Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg and his series Rich and Poor, and it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than a pretty picture, it could be used to convey and tell stories. Feeling inspired, she went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography and Digital Imaging with a minor in Business Art and Design. After Bianca's employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business, She works as a professional photographer capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more, through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take photo, at any time, and for mums to get in the photos too. Bianca has created the Help Me See podcast - where she holds vulnerable, real conversations challenging the cultural norm & empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as an intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favours helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just seeing it. Above all else she believes that photographing your life is a not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now, as we take each photo. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, post natal/partum depression ** I like your work podcast / Monika Crowley's work / Grace Tame Bianca Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. My guest this week is Bianca Mora, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland, Ohio, and Bianca is a mom of two boys. throughout school, Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path, Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg, and particularly his series rich and poor. And it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than just a pretty picture. It could be used to convey and tell stories. She went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida, where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in photography and digital imaging with a minor in business, art and design. After Bianca is employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business. She works as a professional photographer, capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take that photo at any time. And for mums to get in the photos to. Bianca has created the podcast called helped me see where she hosts vulnerable, real conversations, challenging the norms and empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favors helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just saying it. Above all else. She believes that photographing your life is not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now as we take each photo. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around mental health, postnatal depression, and anxiety. Today's episode you'll hear music from my trio called LM Joe. We create ambient and new age music, myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and you can find the links to listen to more in the show notes. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you. Or from the resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be accessed by the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you for coming on, Bianca. It's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Oh, thank you so much, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. I mean, from the second I just read the title of the podcast when I first became aware of it. I was like, Well, I mean, the most perfect thing ever right up my alley. Oh, that's brilliant. So we're about to you in America. I am about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland, Ohio. Right. So where's that in relation to? I don't know. What's a big city that I know New York. Where is it new in realize now it's seven hour drive from New York? Ah, okay. So it's sort of sort of in the ballpark. there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So what's it like over there at the minute is you're coming in to use spring it was summer, spring now. It's definitely getting warm that I feel like we skipped spring and headed straight to summer for some reason. It was like blistering cold and now all of a sudden, it's like super humid. Right. So what sort of degrees like daily temps to get there? We've been around from 70s to 80s in the last few days, but I don't know it's pretty turbulent. It really wavers. Yeah, right. I'm just gonna look at what that is. is in Celsius. So fair. I have this thing where I like I have a I've always been like, are 20? About 21? Yeah, that's nice. I like to know about people's weather. I don't know, it just helps me put things in context, if I can visualize and feel myself in, is I understand what your place is like. Oh, totally sure thing I've always done. And it's, it's weird, but I don't know, it's just one of those things. Like, I just want to know, when you wake up, do you put on a sweater or shorts? Let's see these in that. Yeah, you can feel like I can. Yeah, I want to say I can make a judgment about a face because that's not really true. It's very superficial. But you know, you can get a feel for a place if you sort of get the vibes. What's happening? Yes. You're a photographer and a podcaster, can you share with us what you do how you got into it, I never in a million years planned on creating a podcast at all. It wasn't something that I had planned to do. Basically, last year, about two weeks into my maternity leave, I got laid off from my full time job. And I really didn't see coming like, at all you'd like to think that. And I was there for about six years. And you'd like to think that you would kind of get a sense for it. And when I didn't, I felt very whiplashed I felt so something changed. And I knew that for the tail end of my employment there, it had turned into something that I didn't love. And I knew I wanted to make the switch, eventually to be full time on my own. But I didn't expect the rug to be pulled out from under me. So it was like a little bit of a humbling experience, but also an experience of if I could work that hard and be that loyal, and you know, kind of put that much energy in this one life that I have into someone else's venture, then I certainly can do that for myself. So you know, by the end of it, it was like, Oh, do you would you like to reapply blah, blah, blah. And I was like, You know what? No, I'm gonna double down on myself. At the worst possible time, we had just moved into my new house, our first house ever second baby, you know, it was just of all the times to take the plunge. But you know, in some ways, I feel like it was the best possible time to take the plunge. Because if I wasn't going to do it at the most uncomfortable than what was going to make me do it, you know, otherwise. So? Yeah, that's it. Because when things are really good, you're not your brains not going there is it's Yeah, yeah. Happy. And yeah. Have you had experience in, like photography and that sort of stuff? Like growing up? Or how did you get into that? Yeah. So I was, I really got into it in high school, I was taking all of like, the advanced placement classes, and like the calculus and the English, and it was just what I was doing, but I knew that the only class that I really loved was my photography class. But for some reason, there wasn't. It just didn't occur to me, it didn't dawn on me that I could pursue that it was just like, oh, but that is just too good. This too fun. And I didn't really take it like seriously as a career path. And then I had happened upon Do you know who Jim Goldberg is? He's a documentary photographer, and I happened upon his work. And I remembered specifically because it definitely was a moment where I felt like my brain changed. Like, it was like a, you know, one of those electric moments, where and it was particularly the series he did on the rich and poor, and it were these black and white photographs. They were just very honest, looking at the camera, and then he would hand it to them and have them just write something about what they thought about the photo. So it was just this moment where I was like, oh, like photography can be more than a pretty picture. Like it was just it seems very trivial, but it was a huge moment for me and my brain. And so after that I decided to go pursue it in college. So I went to a private art school, a Ringling College of Art and Design in Sarasota, Florida, and I graduated with a BFA in photography in digital imaging with a minor in Business art and design there and so yeah, that's that's my background and I had I mean, I had been photographing since you know, I could get those digital or those disposable cameras in a very composed The way I, I say that when I was in middle school, there was this moment of me laying in my bed, looking at the ceiling about to fall asleep, where I think the concept of death just dawned on me as well. Things kind of dawn on me like a two boys. I remember thinking about, you know, just like nothing mattering. And I don't know, something just panicked in me. And I felt like, oh, I need to make things to let people understand how I feel about them, I need to make things because eventually, what I think and feel might not matter, like my favorite color, and my favorite band, like might not matter. But whatever I make, can be left behind. So I very much became a maker from that point. Do you find when you watch movies, that you can't just watch it, you have to like find the deeper meaning in everything. Like, it's just I have to I honestly, I have like two modes. I either I have to watch the very, very, like easy to watch like Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the you know, deep emotion, or I'm in the depths of No, I don't know, I I I think I'm I just this past year became familiar with the term HSP highly sensitive person, I really think that I'm like, like, medically that I can't even if I know it's not real, and it didn't happen. I carry it like an anchor on my chest for like weeks. So I have to pick and choose my intake. Yep, no, I can relate to that. It's like that empaths sort of energy where you take it in. And it's like you're experiencing spirit experiencing yourself. Like, I can't listen to like true crime or anything like that. Because I can visualize myself and feel myself in the position of that person. Both people like the victim and the perpetrator. Like, I just can't do it. It's too much. Yes, yeah. And I dropped my sister mad when we watch movies, because there's darkness and she's up there like the I don't know, I can. Yeah. Settlers my, my partner, he is a computer animator. So if we're ever like watching a Pixar movie, or something we'll be watching and be like, Do you know how hard it is for them to do those bubbles. And like a few of us it's really, it's really should be hilarious. And it's like, you're gonna give it to us about your bubbles. Like, oh, my gosh. So I heard about this exercise to like write a letter to someone that inspires you deeply. And then to someone that drives you nuts and to after you're done writing it, change the name to your own name, and then read it again. And, gosh, I want to give credit where it's due, I believe it was on a podcast called I like your work. Yeah, I believe that's what it was. And I was like, that sounds so interesting. So I was in my studio. And I just started writing a letter to this photographer that I loved so much. And I was like bawling, like by myself up and he's like, passed like he passed young. I never met him no exposure to him. But for some reason I feel this like, deep soul connection to him. Anyway, but it made me want to get a tattoo for him because I a few years ago, I purchased a book of his on eBay. And I could have gotten it brand new. But I chose to buy the one that he signed, but he labeled it to bill. And I was like how could bill sell this? He touched it. He taught like I was like, No, I want it. I don't care if it's effed up like I want to have the book that he touched in some way like that. I don't know I carry something for me. So it was like if I get like a a tattoo that said Dear Larry love Bill Oh my gosh. Oh, fat. It reminds me I had a conversation the other week with a lady who's a potter functional product, but she also does some ceramic stuff. And we're talking about how, when you pick up a piece of pie, I've got a not a sugar bowl, what's it called a fruit bowl. And when I pick it up, sometimes I put my thumb in the same spot where there's an indent of the thumb of the person who made it. And it's just that incredible connection. Like, oh, I just spins you out. Like, I just love that, that. Yeah. That just gave me goosebumps. Ah, yeah. Tell us more about your podcast, what it's called, and what you do, and all that sort of stuff. So the podcast is called helped me see. And it it's funny, because it's probably the least planned thing I've ever done in my life. And it continues to be that. And I know that it has to be that for me to continue doing it. So helped me see is all around just having very real and honest and vulnerable conversations, you know, much like you do here, you know, challenging norms. And also just trying to make sense and meaning out of these, like, these feelings that we have that we swear we know better, but we can't help but have and like the wavering of it, and the waffling of it. And so I do have guests on the show. But I also do a lot of solo episodes that are just basically like my audio diary recordings of me just talking about the things that really rev me up. And I would say that one of the, although my focus is in Photographic Arts, and I really have a strong passion point for kind of reimagining the way that we think about our photographs and the way we photographs or our lives. I would say one of the main driving forces of me, being so radically transparent with my own feelings is when I had a bout with postpartum depression. And after my first child, and I was just so taken aback and kind of mad at no one and everyone, I felt like so shocked that I could feel this bad and not have had any sort of exposure to it. Like I and I feel like it is getting better. I do feel like I maybe it's the algorithm, I don't know. But I feel like I'm seeing so much more just like honest sharing. But I think that I just felt so shocked that I was so shocked by how I felt and didn't see it coming at all that I was like, I will never, I will never hide my truth, even if it helps one person. Like I remember coming back from maternity leave. And you know, people were so innocent and welling, well intentioned, but would be like, Oh, that must have been so lovely. And I was like, No, it was really terrible. It was really terrible. And I could see them be uncomfortable. But I had to I had to just be honest, because, you know, that's how I know. That's how I got there. So you know, that person innocently having that exchange with me? If I were to have, you know, glazed by it, perhaps they might be more apt to experience that. So, you know, I love that. Yeah, because I think I have had my own experience with postnatal depression as well. And it's really important, I believe, for what you're doing and what I attempt to do as well to normalize these emotions, that it's not bad, you're not a bad mother for feeling this way. It's a society has got this, this set of expectations of how you're supposed to feel. And I just want to smash them up and say that we can feel however, we want to feel how we need to feel and the more we talk about it, the better that we're all going to be because I think that's the thing the woman that said that to you might not have been a woman sorry. That's how she's been exposed to it. And probably the same thing has had people who maybe didn't have the courage that you did to say actually, no, that's this is not how it is, this is how it is, you know, this is reality. You know, if everybody goes around pretending that it's fine, then you know, it'll continue to be the way it is. Or has been. So yeah, good on you. I mean, in that it, it those are the more acute like I'd say heightened important areas but it, it is rampant. It's like when someone just says, Well, how are you? If you ever say anything other than fine or oh, great, then it's like, okay, that's too much. I just asked because it's a social norm, you're supposed to say, you the script, the script, you know, don't deviate from the script. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like the are there's a delay, I've just started following on Instagram. Who, I mean, there's a lot of women that are doing it now, which is great, you're basically telling it like it is, you know, I'm not a bad mother, because I, I got frustrated with my children today, because they wouldn't listen to me, you know, just just calling it out and saying, This is fine. This is life, and we're allowed to feel crap. You know, the thing that I found really challenging, when I was starting to tell people about my personnel depression is that I, no one said it to me, but I had this idea in my head that I should feel grateful that I was able to have children. So I shouldn't feel this way, you know. And, honestly, it's like, you cannot control the chemicals in your brain, you cannot control that, you know, I've had actually had someone tell me once that depression wasn't real, and I thought, you've never experienced it, you've got no idea, this woman that I met, that, that was reckoned through daily affirmations, you could keep yourself well. And I said to her short, that might be able to help with a low mood, you know, a bit of exercise never hurt anyone, you know, getting outside and talking yourself up a bit. That's great for low mood, but if you use you actually, physically in your brain, the chemicals are not doing what they're supposed to do, then you're going to experience an altered sense of reality. And that's the truth of it. You know, I feel like slapping this woman when she told me that I won't speak to her anymore, because it's like, how do you know, it's scary, it's scary that those those sentences can come out of, you know, because, you know, thank goodness that you have the understanding that you do, because I mean, the last thing someone needs is to feel even more isolated. And yeah, I definitely relate to what you were saying about oh, I should, all the things you should feel it's the least amount of helpful when I was going through it. I'm like, Oh, I'm not in the NICU. I was going through all the reasons why it didn't make sense. And I, you know, should be grateful that something that I was talking about recently is, you know, this, this not only toxic positivity, because I feel like that's was a huge thing for me. But also, I feel like the more nuanced version is weaponizing gratitude with yourself. Oh, I should be grateful. I'm grateful. Why am I feeling if I was more grateful, I wouldn't feel like this. And it's just the least amount of helpful thing ever. Oh, yeah. I want to mention a quote that I found through your Instagram, which was amazing, and I want to hear more about it. So you said the photograph is not just a souvenir to help you remember? Can you share more about that? And the sort of the deeper meaning behind that? Yes, it's strange to hear me quoted. I was like, what what did I say? Say your face you like? Yeah, the photograph is not a souvenir just to help you remember, I, I truly feel that. Photographs, although that is a huge benefit of them. It's not just something to help you remember, I think that it's something that can be used to help you engage more in your life. It's an active viewing and experiencing of your life. And I also there's no notion of, you know, a moment frozen in time, although it is very much an image that stays the same. The meaning transforms and transcends like, time and space. And you know, that staying the same, but we're continuing to grow our lives are changing circumstance, everything. So you can take a photo of something and feel a certain way about it. And two weeks later, a month later, 10 years later, feel completely different about it. First photograph is semi meaningless, and then all of a sudden, it becomes the most important thing because it's the last of whatever, you know, it's just this these magical little blips, I call them breadcrumbs for your life. because not only is it something that I believe to be like a form of acknowledging and, you know, being more present in the moment. But it's also this gift that you give yourself later in life to seek comfort, understanding, healing. I mean, just so much. There's just, it's just the whole world. I mean, that can dive into every nook and cranny. And it's incredible to me, because it's, you know, and I think that it's in today's day and age, it's almost being looked at as something that's like a gluttonous act. Right? Like, whenever you feel like the impulse to take a photo, it's almost like a shameful thing. Like, why can't I just be present? And that is like, yeah, yeah, that's my soapbox. Yeah. And this this thing that oh, you've always got your phone in the in your hand, because you're always thinking about a photo. Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to Yeah, hearing that. Feeling. Yeah. But I mean, you are your own internal compass. And I think that we are super sophisticated. And we know if it's coming to enough to distinguish where that's coming from, you know, if you are feeling the pressure to take a photo because of an expectation, or because you want to post it or, and you also know if it's a very organic spark that you just, it comes out of you. And it's before you even realize that your phone is out. And it's because you have this deep inner knowing that this is a moment for you. Like we see a bajillion things a day, like 360 degrees, like, if we're blessed with eyesight we see so much in a day. And when you have that spark of like, I want a photo of this. It is like a recognizing so many more levels into a moment than we I think we're aware of in that moment. It's like we're wise beyond her years. And, you know, if we just take the photo, even if it's a super snapshot, casual, not cute, whatever, I believe that those are breadcrumbs for leave or later for reason. I was thinking about this, leading up to talking to you I have I have a thing where I have to take photos of flowers, or what I see is intensely beautiful things. And I was thinking about it as you know, as I would because I think everything is that just because I like beautiful things? Or is it is there's something deeper in there. Like that they make me feel good. Or you know what I mean? Like it's not a frivolous thing. Like I was talking to one of the ladies on the mother world episode, Tasha was saying, like I have I collected a lot of artwork of, I'm not going to show you because it's an absolute mess. But I have a corner in my room where I put the proper artwork that real artists did that I put in frames, and I just I love having them. They're just so beautiful, and I love them. And she was saying how society can view beauty as a frivolous thing. You know, what's your take on that? I believe that. And also, Tasha is like a genius. I wish. I was like, I don't even understand the magic coming out of your mouth right now. I believe that we respond to things that we don't know until we know, I think that it's with the flowers, perhaps one day, okay, like, ah, that's why I get that a lot. I get that a lot. Like, I have these moments where I feel like I've had this incredible breakthrough. And then all of a sudden, I look back and I'm like, I've been doing the same shit for 20 years. It's just a different way. So far as to like, I think that what we're recognizing, and that the same way I feel about taking pictures like of your daily life, like whether it be a flower or whether it be a moment of your kids or whatever, not knowing what exactly you're responding to, until you look back at it from your bird's eye view and find that common thread and understand what it is you're responding to. You know, I just I don't know why this is making me think it's kind of it's similar but not exactly the same. I think about that photographer. I was telling you about my favorite photographer. Ever. I had this moment of like there's this other photographer that I usually am not like the biggest fan of his work. It's beautiful, but I found this one book of his and I was like oh my goodness like I'm I just have this and I didn't understand why. Because I'm like, he's not usually my fit might you know exactly for me, but this feels like, oh, and I open it. I could cry just talking about it. It freaked me out so much. I had no idea. Apparently, my that photographer that's my favorite Larry, she mentored him. And he specifically was the thank you for that book. I was sobbing, I was like, Are you kidding? Like, you can't make that up. And it's just what is for us is for us as for us, and the more we're able to like recognize it. I feel like the more we pull it in, which is why one of in my deep dive, of course, I made I late and it's all about this and our photographic tendencies, but it's called and some people, I don't know if I should change the title, because I feel like some people get confused by it. But it feels so true to what it does. I called it manifest your memories. Because I, I desire to help you just feel more confident in your ability to recognize your right moments, not better photos, not whatever. But the photos that are meant for you. Because once you know what your right moments are, you see more of them, and you create more of them. Yeah, yep. Yeah. When you're aware. And you you've got that in your mind. You're very conscious of it. And yeah, yeah. So you mentioned your course there. Can you share more about what you do in your career? You post creation in your education? For people? Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, it's all about in uncovering of you. It really is. I know, it's, sometimes it takes me a bit to explain, because I think that because I'm a photographer, I think it's more expected that I'm helping you take better pictures, but really, it's helping you kind of understand what you're responding to, and what that process can give to you. Because it really can be depending on, you know, the emotional state you're in, you can take a snapshot, because you just want to quickly get it and just be in the moment or it could really be like inexperience, I think that we underestimate the amount of decisions we make, especially people that don't quote unquote, identify as creative, which is come on, I got a bone to pick with that everyone's creative. Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Yes. It's like all from the framing to the, you know, what, how far you're in or out, even if it's like an amateur, whatever. It's all very important, and just kind of helping us reimagine, and like gain a new respect and understanding for your unique vision of your life. Yeah, that's the thing I think you don't want to diminish, just because the photo might not be aesthetically perfect or pleasing or whatever, that does not diminish the fact that whoever took that photo was taking it for a reason that's relevant to them. Which, yeah, and I guess that's art, too. It's like, everything's subjective. You know, the person that painted something, was doing it for their benefit. They weren't doing it, to make it beautiful for you to put on your wall. Like, you know, everyone's got that meaning inside of them that comes out in their creativity. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was just talking to someone who like, just burst out crying because she was flipping through her phone and she had been somewhere and she just saw, I could cry, she saw a picture that her son had took of her that she didn't know he took, and it's just the thought of, it's enough to bring me to tears, you know, like it just everything has like boundless opportunities for like meaning and to touch you and you know, when I think about our, you know, the quality of like, professional photos or whatever I think about just the complete catalyst for my whole business, which was like the passing of my beloved dog. I say that his passing was like this completely unplanned, unintentional, like, confirmation of my whole concept of like, the work that I'm doing and everything that has come since then, because it was my first real death. It like close to me lucky enough. It was my end. It just happened last year. And it was when I went back to look through the archives of my photos of him. They it was the weirdest thing because if they function the way I thought they would, it was like Yes, this is what I encountered like this fear I carried with me for so long of losing anyone and him. I was interacting with it the way I wanted to, but something that I wasn't shocked by but I was, I was impressed by how intense this was, was my comfort and desperateness for the photos that were the worst quote, unquote, like, the blurry cellphone photos, right just happened to Cat catch, like a really funny look on his face with the jowls or like, you know, us laying in bed, it was so dark, you can barely see. But I remember I just really wanted to capture, like how he was like, nestled in me. And it wasn't the gorgeous, Regal ones, like, I'm so happy to have them. I love them. But the ones that I was yearning for, were not the most beautiful ones. You know, that's, I'm so passionate and sharing that because I would never want someone to not take the beautiful responsibility of taking the most important pictures of their lives, because they're too busy, you know, waiting for a professional to do it for them. Because that professional could never take the most important pictures of your life. It's only you. Yeah, and that's the thing, like, and I have had professional photographers on the show before. So I'm not saying this to diminish their worth, by any means. But I feel like it's something that people they put off until the time's right? Like, I will wait to get the professional shots to finish having our family or I want to lose a bit of weight first before I do it. So you're putting off capturing the moments that are happening, actually your life is happening. Until you get to a point where you feel like things are, I'm putting that in inverted quotes, air quotes, again, a right or perfect, which is the horrible word. You know, so it's like, taking the photos every single day or you know, every time the moment calls to you wildlife is happening. And you can then you can get your photos that you want to have the beautiful photos on the wall, which look amazing. You walk into people's houses. I don't have them because I don't know, I just don't like seeing my big head everywhere. But you know, and what's important to to other people, you know, we're all different, and of what you know, we want. But yeah, like not letting life slip by and not letting life happen to you. But you're actually experiencing your life as it's happening to you. Yes. And I mean, I know that what you're saying makes me think about how, I mean, it's no secret that the most important moments of our lives are the tiniest, like it's the mundane, quiet ones. And, you know, the, the times that we usually think about hiring and investing in you know, photography tends to be the events and, and, you know, for for good reason, too. It's an investment and it's a production, it is a thing, but I mean, I, I think about how funny it is that I'm the photographer of the family. And oftentimes on the holidays, it's the last time I'm pulling out my camera, like unless it's like a camcorder or something because I just, I don't there's already enough going on that day. I don't, I don't need more on the plate like I don't I know for me, those are not the moments that are the most important moments. So unless something trips up inside of me and I do take the photo, but it's kind of like inverted, like those, like those milestone moments are, are very sweet. And they're important not to diminish them. Like the celebration is always important. But I mean, not to be cliche, but it is it's like your life is like everything. And then the graduation. A wedding. It's like, those are not a moment that are like the meat of your life. Yeah, I just as we're talking about that reminds me of I had a guest on the podcast, Monica Crowley. I had her on the podcast. She's an Irish visual artist, and she's really, really passionate about recording. The moment she's a predominant oil. Artists works with oils, and one of her works is of the items in the sink. So she did this series of things that were in a sink because she was spending a lot of time at the sink. So it was like recording just these mundane, everyday ordinary moments. Yeah, because as moms, we we do a lot of repetitive tasks. There's a lot of things we do a lot every day. Yeah. And what how what do you feel about this? Moms making sure they're in photos? Is that something that you're keen about as well? Yes. I actually have a I have a I have to send you the link. It's just a free challenge. I'm so passionate about it. I made this like inbox challenge. It's brilliant. You sign up and you can just get through it's over three days three prompts. I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm saying very simple things. But the point is, my biggest point is in this topic is to not make permanent decisions off of temporary feelings. Because, listen, I'm not immune to this, like, we all know, when we feel like we're having a good day or not having a good day, or we're this or that. But not taking that moment to get in the photo regularly, is making a very strong decision for yourself leader, and not only yourself, but your kids to not, you know, not being in that frame. And also, I mean, I think about my whole life up until, like, last year, I hated my profile, I just hated the bump on my nose hated it. And then all of a sudden, I looked at this photo last year with me and my two boys, and I, it was a straight profile picture. And I was like, I don't care anymore. I was shocked. I was like, not only do I not care, but I actually quite liked that picture. And it's like, imagine if I would have been ducking from the camera, you know, we're very conscious of it. You know, I think that sometimes we can get caught up in like all of the posting in the social media, but we have to remember that, you know, not saying that, to make yourself uncomfortable, when it's not something that feels good to you. But at the same time, take comfort in not all of these photos are for anyone else to see, like your photographs, or you know, it's like your visual diary of your life, you know, so. And I think that we can underestimate our, the healing we get from that as well. I think about what my photos of me from postpartum Of course, I took the pictures of you know, I've made myself up and blah, blah, blah with the babies. But those pictures make me feel uncomfortable to look at because I see myself smiling. And I know, like, I know what it felt like. And it makes me uncomfortable to see those. And then I see the pictures that I took in my lowest hours. Because I do you have that weird thing where I'll take a selfie when I'm not well, and I find such compassion for myself that I don't know that I would have thought to even have for myself had I not seen the pain of like a previous version of myself, it's kind of like, you're looking at a picture of yourself as a little girl. Like you just have this compassion that you don't have for yourself as as naturally now, which is something that you know, I feel like also needs to be worked through and I'm working through but these photographs are openings for us, huh? Yeah, I love that. So one of your I don't know whether just call it a program or a course. Sorry, is called nostalgia now 10 member membership, can you share sharing with us what that is about? That is my newest creation. And I say that I knew that I was onto something when I had when it came to me. And I did a like a mock run of it by myself. And I was so excited that I was like panic, because if I haven't I've been doing this for myself in my life for longer. So in full transparency as as usual with me. So my course I was finding I'm like this is it's just hard to explain succinctly. Right? Like, I don't think that it's people understand it as quickly. And I think that it's it can be confusing if you're not already like a part of this world. And I was like what is a way to like, implement the theory and the function of like what I'm getting at here that in a way that's like doable, simple, sustainable, and like realistic for like busy overwhelmed moms. And this is what I thought of i It's a once a month meeting. And I also have like a portal of like different resources because we have an intention for each month. And I'll add like curated meditations in it and I'll upload the video versions of my podcast as a way to like keep momentum through the month. But at the in this meeting, it's two hours in the first hour is like coworking, so I send out these templates that are just artfully done and there's like only space for three or four photos. And I put like a vague prompts in it like something that made you feel expansive or something that you want to take with you for the rest of your life or something, whatever. And you're only allowed to look at all of the photos up on your scroll from the last month. And so you've been on your music, we are an hour your were muted on Zoom, and you're just looking at the photos that took place. Over the last month of your life, and you can only pick four, which is a weird, hard, but also fascinating thing, it's just this crazy way to get intentional. And also see the scope of what happens in a whole month, I'm shocked at what happens in a whole month. And to kind of like witness yourself from like a bird's eye view, because you know that you're the taker of these photos, and to like, look back and see, notice what you noticed, and then create this thing. So you have like this visual of the that month of your life. And then we go around, and it's like adult show and tell. And we just talk about why we chose each photo. And you know, like, what that month and that intention felt like for us. And I really feel like it's such a beautiful way to check in with yourself and make space for yourself in a in a cadence that is realistic, but also so helpful. Because how often do we look back? And we're like, it's been six months into the new year, what the fuck am I doing, like I said, I'm gonna do this, and I haven't and whatever. So it's a way to like, keep you account a gentle way to like, keep you accountable, and like connected to yourself and to your, you know, wrapping up a month and saying, Okay, this is the way this month played out. And like, this is what I'm hoping for this month, you know, and to keep you sort of anchored to the moment. So like, I know, I'm the same, like, it's June, this is insane. Like, what has happened. But yeah, and to actually take stock each month and remembering that Ah, that's right. And, and I think that's important that that why we took that photo and why we chose to include, you know, included in the prompts. In those four photos, like it gives you that time to reflect on yourself, and maybe how you feeling or things that you might like you said, things you want to do that you're putting off or, you know, it's like, I don't want this to sound rude at all. But it sounds so simple, but it's so big and meaningful. You know, like, it's just, I don't know, it's really powerful, isn't it? And as moms like we're so we are so busy, and we're always doing things for other people. And to be able to carve out time for ourselves can often feel like, you know, a luxury or guilt thing, you know, but to actually stop and take stock of ourselves, you know, instead of always saying to other people, how are you? How can I help you, you know, what does this person need? What are my children need, you know, looking at ourselves. And that can be challenging, I think for for many people would be hard to say Well hang on a minute, I'm the least person that matters here. You know that we're putting everybody else first all the time. So it would open up so many things for for everybody. Oh, it's incredible. And it's you know, right now it's a very intimate group. And I will I first to admit, I am a self proclaimed hermit introvert, like the community part of any up until a year ago, the community part of anything I was like, Okay, I mean, I'm a lone wolf. I'm the person that if I was in a group in high school working on a project, I'm like, I'll see you later I'll put your name on it fine. Like not at all, but the value of connecting with like, like feeling souls, not even like minded or like, it's just people that you just see each other. I mean, every time we like, there's almost tears, you know, and it's just so to be witnessed, to be able to like speak your truth and also be witnessed by people that you just know, get it. It's, I don't know that there are words for it really, like I feel like often people can kind of shrug it off and I know that I was one of those people before experiencing it for myself. But you know, I think that that element of it not only does it keep us accountable to actually do it, but it makes it so much more fruitful and if it gives it so much more space. Hmm. Yeah. Now I love it good on you. I think that's a wonderful thing. And I'll put all the links if anyone's interested in checking this out. I'll put all the links in the show notes and that is awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Now, let's talk about your children. Oh yeah. The D so you've got two children, boys, two boys. Oh boy. I'm hearing you in almost four year old caches, and then Silas is like 16 months. Oh, nice little boys. Yeah. And they are so different. So different. My first one. It's funny I, I have like, I really do wonder if like their births had something to do with how they are now because my first one was is a very sensitive, deep feeling intense, little boy. And like my labor was really hard. It was like a very, I got postpartum, the whole thing. And then my second son, I was like bopping on a ball Post Malone. And he is just a savage. She is like, nothing upsets them. Everything's a joke to him, like, different. You know what, there might be something in that because my first labor was very, very quick and intense and incredibly, horribly insane. And my sense, the same is a real is real impact. Everything's really deep. And he takes things in so sensitive. And the other one ah, water off a duck's back, you know, completely different. How old? So the older one, he's 14, and my little one is about to turn seven. So, so it stayed true. It stayed true to them as they grew. Oh, hey, personality? Absolutely. They're just like chalk and cheese. Unbelievable kids. Larry sees often wonder how that happens when you've got the you know, in our case, you know, the same the same parents? How are they? Ah, it's insane. How do you find then they're coming into your world, you becoming a mom, how has that affected the way you see things in your photography? I feel that they've definitely, it's like a, I don't know, it's making me think about like a magnifying glass like, wood on concrete. With the sudden I get it feels like a very acute, like heightened everything. But I definitely really didn't know I didn't understand what my transformation would be like in becoming a mother. I think I had this underlying belief that once I had children, my cup runneth over from them. And I would the emphasis like, because, you know, I'm a naturally anxious person, I get very overwhelmed, but I felt like once I have kids, like that will be my world. I will focus on that. And that will be so fulfilling and XYZ and this is how I'm going to be. That's not at all how I was like, it's just crazy to me. And it you know, it sounds so naive. But I really did think that like I had a friend who had a baby who, you know, she was very much on the fence and didn't know if she ever wanted one. And then when she did she was just on genuinely on cloud nine blissed out. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if she was blissed out, I'm gonna be like, correct because I have been wanting a baby for so long. Just not at all, how, how I felt and how I've kind of processed the change, but, you know, they are still like a boot camp for me. I mean, I am like, a they're a mirror for me in that. They intensify all of the best and worst in me. And I am so aware of when I'm at my worst in terms of what I'm feeling and what I don't want to project because I don't want to pass on the traits that I've inherited to my children. So there, they keep me honest, in not that I'm always you know, I always pass the test in, you know, not doing my natural reactions. I I have like a very overly protective worrywart, Italian New York father. And I just grew up with like, the most worry, fear consumed everything. And I'm very much trying not to pass that on. And I know that they can sense even when I'm not saying it, I know that they can sense that energy from me. So they're really helping me to become more aware and work through that. Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. That's yeah. I love that. It's interesting. I actually saw this quote, this just this morning when I was scrolling. I really want to find it now. But I don't know if I'm gonna be able to it was about the gist of it was how basically the gist of it was We're very different parents and our parents were deliberately we're trying to do things differently. We're trying to, and I'm not saying our parents did a bad job, that was the world that they lived in is a different world that we're parenting in. Yeah. What was, you know, acceptable, the norms of what you did and how you interacted with your children. So we're conscious of that. And we want to, I mean, I guess we don't, we don't want to put our kids through things that we went through, you know, being kind to our parents that are listening. And they probably say the same thing about their parents, you know, each generation learns as we go. So, it's, it's overwhelming, because it's like, it's everywhere. Like, it's in the most innocent of places, and the most normal of tongues, like, I think about something that'll fly out of my mouth. And, or I'll hear someone else say, and I'm, like, hold the phone. That is so effed up, like, so. It was, you know, if my kids no tears, be a big boy, no tears, I'm like, Just fucking terrible. But it's like, so it's so quote, unquote, innocent. But it is until it's not like, it's like, thank goodness, we're having these like, awakenings to it, but it's like, kind of, you know, if you sleepwalk through it, and if you just let it happen, because that's what has been done before. We all know how that goes, you know. So it, you know, all we can do is the best we can do, but it could drive you crazy. So I think that giving grace and being grateful for the awareness, because that is the most beautiful thing. And that, you know, I mean, it just does tie back to the way I think about photography. I the awareness and the impulse and the thought to take a photo, just the recognition of like, hey, that doesn't feel right saying that to my kid, or that is so much more powerful than any action you take. In that moment. Like, you could fuck it up. You could say you could have said that and like, then they went to school and you didn't have a moment to make it right in that moment. Or, you know, you know, you thought to take the photo, and then you did but it didn't feel right, you wish you didn't, whatever. It's, it's the awareness. It's the seeing it, that is the biggest breakthrough of all that unlocks everything that comes after and it builds from there. So I think releasing ourselves of like, doing it wrong, or like should have what occurs or regrets and just feeling gratitude for like, Hey, I saw that, like, I'm aware of that. Yeah, that was a big, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's, it's really relating to like this conversation that I'm having right now, presently, actually, ironically, about how, like presence and how this term feels like this elusive like, Yeah, can't ever grasp it. Like I, I always am hearing often that like, a lot of people, I feel this I've set it to, it's hard to be present in my life. And what really got me thinking about this in a more, like, problem solving type of way is that when I would tell people that I truly believe that you don't have to choose between being present and taking the photo, I would see their shoulders drop, like, as I was anyone to tell them give them permission how to be in their life the way they want to be. And it just made me think about how we are putting presence on this pedestal and like thinking that like, it has to be this, you know, this like come to whatever moment when really, we need to just recognize our own unique ways of being present. Because it's not just one way it's not just you know, we are when we are we are and it looks in different ways. Like sometimes I think about presence. He even when you look it up the definition is like to not have your mind stray from the current situation. And when I don't I don't even agree with that. It's like sometimes presence is like, okay, like, I'm looking at the pores on my kid's face and like, really like studying him. And I'm present and sometimes I'm present and I feel like I can see through like different lifetimes. I'm like looking at a moment. And I like zoom up and I can see like so much more and of course my brain is Going somewhere else, but like, I really feel like both versions of presence in my life like I don't Yeah, that see, I can agree with that too. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I can't even explain it but I know what you mean Yeah. Now I'll go to a subject that I really I love talking about. And I always say it sounds terrible when I say I love talking about guilt. But I just find it so fascinating. And I think that idea when you mentioned about this presents being this attainable thing, everyone's got to be present, because everyone's telling us we've got to be present. And if we're not present, we'll feel bad about it. This whole guilt laden thing, talk to me about your, your thoughts about guilt and like mum guilt, I put that in air quotes as well. It's like, it's like a magician that like keeps pulling like the flags out of his Our scars out of his bag, it just you keep peeling off the layers when you think you're clear of it. I think that guilt, mom guilt is a very specific type of guilt. And I also feel that artist, Mom yield is an even more cute version of it. Because being that intensely aware of the impermanence of something and being able to see the depths of the beauty, and so many moments of your life, can make you feel so beholden to meet that moment there. And sometimes you're just not there. Sometimes you do. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scrolling my phone. I just wasn't i How many times are they going to be in the battle? It's like you go through the Rolodex like I know, I know, a B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuffed myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I'd never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like I just felt I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to and I closed my eyes. I was like, I can't see any more. I can't I can't take in any more. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about about guilt and about it's this it's the knowing it's that wise like I get it I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not I'm not there and I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment you know, that is brilliantly put honestly, I need to put a put a hand clap that was amazing. You have literally summed up how I feel about mom guilt. Don't make me cry. Like honestly. I'm going to take this moment and frame it like that is just so good. You will hear this quote again. Love it. Yes, it is so hard to like to know it's like you know, cuz you sit there and you can be so hard on yourself and you're like I know better. I see this is incredibly How could I not want to be there but you Just there's, there's only so much going on. And that's it, isn't it? And that whole thing of that if we can't, you know, we have, we can't be this martyr, we can't be this completely selfless person that puts our needs above everybody else's. Because we won't survive. And it's not sustainable. And it's not. I don't think it's a good thing to be showing our children either that, you know, the mother is the sacrificial lamb and yes. Yeah, how would you want your child to put themselves like to prioritize themselves and in their life? You know, it's funny, I this quote, I went to an artist talk in when I was living in San Francisco, and it was it stuck with me. It's one of those things that stuck with me, there's a couple of those. And you know, sometimes something sticks with you. And you're like, I don't know that this is going to be good to be sitting in me. But I've had a couple of those moments. But this one that in particular, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of it's Francis Ford Coppola. And it was a q&a part of the lecture. And someone raised their hand and said, Well, what advice would you give a young artists director in their career? And he sat there for a moment, and he said, It was the most honest thing you could have said, you can't even get mad at him. He was like, I'd say, if you're a male, the starting your career, get married, have children. If you're a woman, don't get married, don't have children. Like that was his career advice. He's right. He was right for what he was saying, for that time. I get it. Because I feel that I'm in a very balanced relationship. And it's still not balanced. It's still there is not apples to apples. If we had the same night planned, and he was out, my my partner was out. And then I was out, we took turns. I'm not exaggerating, the night would be three times harder. For me. They're different children with me, they feel there's so much more turbulent, absolutely. It's just the way it is. And unlike the natural, and he and my partner, he is so accommodating and helpful when I need it. But this the setpoint the state that is the weight sways this way. And, you know, there has to be work done to help balance that and we have to be extra vocal, in my experience, I have to be extra vocal to speak for my needs. And that requires excavating and that requires, you know, realizing inequities where we don't even realize it's happening, but it is so deeply ingrained. We don't even identify them. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, it's funny that I feel like my children like I had a perfect example last night where my little fella was some my husband and put him to bed. And he was out. Two minutes later, he came down to me and wanted to chat and I. And I said, I said, Hang on a sec, aren't you supposed to be in bed? And he goes, Yeah. And I said, I said, I, I did hate using these words, but I do. I said, I'll tell dad. And he goes, and he races back to bed. And my, my eldest son was there. And I said, Hi, why does that happen? And he goes, he goes, Yeah, I remember when when I was little, that wasn't even home. But you pretended he was home and called out to him. And that made me get back in my bed. You know, but like, my husband is not, you know, a big domineering men. He's not like physically like, he, you know, he doesn't there's no reason for my children to fear him. It's just this whole thing or wait till your dad gets home you know, like this. This culture is you know, dead serious. Our mom you know, she might let me stay up a bit longer because she's a softy. You know, it's just this it takes me an hour to get my son in bed if I he like puts a I say it's like his physical alarm system on me. He'll swing his leg over mine. So I tried to like double Oh, seven get out of the bed and I can so I'm like, half the time I fall asleep putting him to bed because he prisoner. And, uh, he, my partner will put them take him up. He sings to lullabies to him, and he's out and that's it. I'm like, Ah. And it's like, it's beautiful. And but that's the thing too. Like, what the girl it's like, sometimes I love it. I always used to think before I had kids. I'm like, How precious is it that they only want mommy? Now I'm like, wow. Oh, no. And sometimes I love it. And sometimes I hate it and that's fine. That was like when, when the boys were little they they often they say dad dad first, like, that's easier for a child to pronounce. Oh, when's he gonna say mom? When's he gonna? Like he says, Mom, and then he never stopped saying that kid is saying, Well, that's what we feel about my, my youngest walking, everyone's like, is he walking yet and we're like, we don't want him. Like, he'll be walking the rest of his life. It's a new world for us, like we joke about like kicking his knees out from under a cake curl and maybe ctrl T. Yeah, look, I love the way that this conversation has become, I know we're being quite light hearted. But it's, it's true. Like, there is nothing wrong with saying, I need a break in this situation, whatever the situation is, and not feeling guilty about I should be doing this, I should be there, you know, this should that, you know, we put on ourselves because of the external use sort of pressures that we feel. I don't know, I keep I have this thing with social media. You know, it's great. And I utilize it a lot for, you know, my needs for my, for my podcasts and my singing and stuff. But I think it's got the way that people use it. It's got quite bad at making us feel like crap. It's got quite good at making us feel like crap questions. Yeah. You know, all these things are getting better. And like I said before, it might be the algorithms, I'm seeing a lot of good things. But I still feel like there's this, we're just, we don't want to tell it like it is. We want to keep this facade up that everything's fine and everything's good. And this may be a parent's wave, like, you don't speak about who you voted for. And you don't talk about religion, you know, that sort of that way of doing things. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think something that I heard recently brought up and like, oh, boy, yeah, it's true is it's like a a wave of curated authenticity, like, quote, unquote, real like, oh, yeah, this is this is Instagram real Instagram real. And then you don't get to see the real root. Like taking it like one step down from the manicured Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I get I get torn with thinking about it and talking about it. Because like, I I feel that just because I decide that I want to be a stand and a, like, take a stand with transparency, and realness doesn't mean that someone else should have to do that. So I, you know, people have very different levels of like, comfortability and privacy. And I totally respect that. And, you know, to be honest, I don't, I don't even quite I don't even quite know, like, what, what I want from it, because when I think about how it harmed me with the postpartum you know, anyone that I could get frustrated with, like, I would know that they also struggled, but they struggled internally, which is makes me sad, too. You know, it's not even that like, oh, you only post the highlight reel, and I know you struggle. It's like, what can we do to like, just bring these conversations up, like what you said about how we don't talk about that? Because it's like, oh, it's tacky or it's this or it's that it's like what you know, what, what is the hiding? Like, what is who by whose standards like I think it's so funny whenever my friends like planning something and she's like, well, what's the etiquette? Like, whatever the fuck you think is right like it what's the etiquette? Like, no, I don't, but we're gonna go look up whatever some woman said 200 years ago. even like the right way to be a lady, you know, just like so funny that these things, I think it's just, if nothing else, this constant questioning, it's like, let's keep asking questions like, why are we doing the things that we're doing? Why are we, you know, wanting to, you know, match our coordinator clothes for this the photos like, is it a passion point that you love? Great? Is it something that you feel beholden to? And everyone else is doing it that way? Probably not the best reason to do it, you know, it's like, it's something that's right for you are right for someone else's wrong. And I think as long as we just keep asking questions and keep having conversations like this, and you know, these platforms that we're used to just say, hey, it's been like this for this amount of time. But why, like, why, why are we doing it this way? I think that that is the most helpful thing that we can do. Oh, yeah. I completely agree with that. It's just, yeah, we had I'm not sure if it made it to the to your media over there. But we, we had a prime minister, we've changed prime ministers, thank goodness. His name was Scott Morrison and he he is a dickhead, sorry, sorry, sorry, liberal people. We have a is a young lady over here called Grace time. And she was she's an activist in the space of survivors of sexual assault. And she was named the Australian of the Year in 2021. And she's amazing. She's, she tells it like it is she gets up there. And she doesn't care who she's talking to. She's gonna tell she's gonna talk as she wants to talk. And she did amazing things. And she's do it. And at the end of her 12 months of being Australian of the Year, they have a function it was Parliament House where it was at the house of the Prime Minister. That's irrelevant, sorry. But anyway, he, they all go there, the Young Australian of the Year old Australian here, whatever. And she, we have in the Liberal government in the last three years, there's been this incredible, probably longer than three years, sorry, this incredible tone of misogyny. And there's all this stuff been coming out about sexual assaults happening in the workplace in at the Capitol. And, wow, the Liberal government sort of, I don't know, sort of tried to brush it off and hide it and support it continued to, to employ Members of Parliament while they're under investigation for for alleged sexual assault. And anyway, so she wasn't happy about that, as a lot of us weren't, and she called them out on it. So when she went to this long story short, she went to this end of the year event, and she refused to shake his hand, and she didn't look him in the eye. And all the men of Australia just went, how dare she, she shouldn't have been there if she wasn't going to smile. You know, it was just this huge moment of division, where so many women just went well, good on her, like, what is he done? He's he's trying to hide this stuff. He hasn't put things in place to sort it out, whatever. That it was this moment. And even my husband was like, Oh, she's not going to smile. She shouldn't have gone. It's like, men standards about how women have to behave in society. Like you're just saying that, you know, this etiquette. 200 years ago, this woman says you have to put your fork on you on the right, and the spine goes there. And then you have these cups for dessert, like, oh, just makes my blood boil. Yeah, like, yeah, and her and by her behaving in that way, it's caused this huge arrow, and it's done exactly what the women needed and wanted and it's brought it into the forefront. You know, she was so brave to do that, you know, just don't play Happy Families and don't think that everything's fine. And just smile and get on with life, like women have had to do for hundreds and hundreds of years. And, you know, oh, sorry. No, I think incredible to me, even if, even if he didn't have this huge scandal out and all of these very valid reasons. Even if it was something private that happened that no one else knew about. You don't want to shake someone's hand. You know what the funniest thing was? Probably 12 months before that. We had, we had a lot of big fires over here. We had a really bad fire season. And the prime minister went to okay, this how much of a decrease bloke was while the big fires were happening? He went on a holiday to Hawaii with his family. So everyone was like, He's not present. He's not here and his comment his comeback when he was questioned about he said, I don't hold the hose. Right. That was his comment. He doesn't need to be in Australia while this is happening because he's physically not there putting out the fire and everyone was like, you idiot. So he went in visited the fire grounds and went and visited the where it was all happening and he went up to this fire man put his hand out to shake his hand. And this man said, I don't want to shake your hand right? Everyone in Australia we could on your mate Good on you for not shaking his hand. Right but when when a woman does it for different reasons, but it's still women doing the men went apeshit and all we were Yes. Grown Your Grace. Just it's just incredible. I can't it's like you can't make this stuff up. You can't? Oh, yeah. Want to believe that? It's still like, I know sometimes you feel like you're like am I 100 years ago? Like what is that? What it but it is? It is? Yeah, sometimes you think the only things missing is our corsets in the big skirts, like we're still living in that world. Now I want to ask you about your it to do with that concept of identity about being a mother and, and your children? Do you feel like it's important for your children to know what you're doing and as they grow up to see that their mum is contributing to the world in other ways other than meeting their own needs. I think when I think about what I want my children to know, about me. I think first and foremost, I think about wanting them to feel fully seen. And although I mean, there is a child and you know parent relationship. i i I want them to feel like they I want to prioritize them knowing me like I don't want to have a shield them from the real me in many senses. Like something I heard one said that I thought was beautiful. And it's very simple. It it was actually do you know Dax Shepard is he's an actor. Yes. And Kristen. I forget. Anyway, Kristen Bell, and Dax Shepard. podcast as well. I was on one of his podcast episodes that they were talking about how if they have a fight, and if it's not like they go out of their way to fight in front of their kids, but like, if they have a fight, and they witness in any way or arguing or whatever, they make sure that they also witnessed the resolution and the working through it. It's just like this level of transparency of like, and just knowing like, knowing having my kids know who I really am is important to me, way more than them feeling like that their mom contributed, like whatever I end up doing. That is not as important to me as like, feeling them feeling like they knew who I was, and not having them like discover things about me that you know, and, and that's always kind of been even outside of like being a mother. I've always felt like that, like, one time was a maybe a spicy but whatever. I really like, you know, someone asked me once, how do you feel about being a woman? In a, in a industry where, you know, historically ABCD and bubbeleh have? How is it? How do you feel about your feminine perspective? And I was like, I don't want to sound ignorant and I so I'm grateful to the trailblazers and I you know, there's a wealth of history and there's so much to be said but also, I am not. That is not the lens that I choose to hold with me and frame. What I do and My life and what I put in the world. And I'm grateful that like, I don't have to feel like I'm like, That is a torch that I'm carrying now. And I understand, like, what came before me to enable that. But I'm here and I'm now and that is not something that I'm prioritizing. I'm not thinking about that in that way. So I don't, you know, I don't feel that, you know, being can, beholding myself to contributing in any sort of specific way is something that resonates with me, it's more this like, need of feeling truly seen and being able to say the things that I struggle to say, but I find the words for like, the other day, I was thinking about how, after one of my podcast episodes, I felt like a vulnerability hangover. And it was weird, because I'm always like, I always nothing different about that episode than all the others. But for some reason, I feel like maybe I said something for myself, like more strongly than I usually did. And I was like, you know, why? Why do I feel like that? And it's this idea that I'm growing so much, and, you know, sometimes our perspectives change, but like, if we're too afraid to say something, because we might change our mind will see nothing ever, you know, so yeah. And to be able to say, I actually actually have changed my mind about this, you know, yeah, to not feel afraid. Oh, well, there you go. Haha. You know, people Yeah, and it's like, actually, I've done the work, and I've gone through things, and I've experienced life. And now actually, I feel like this, there's, again, no shame in saying stuff like that. Exactly. And having your children bear witness to that, like, could enable them to, you know, maybe not have such a go with their, with their pride and being able to do the same. So, yeah, so that is like, my number one priority for for whatever my kids can see or think of me is just to see the wholeness of, of what I am. Yeah, I really love that. Baby's really, really lovely. I really love that. So that's the thing, like, I feel like, it's sort of related to times when you'd go to funerals for older relatives, and you discover that they did this, that and the other and, like, Ah, I wish I'd have known that. So I could have asked them about it, you know, saying like, I don't know, I, in my eye, again, challenging the cultural norms, this is what it was at the time, you know, my parents, they would hide, you know, certain conversations from us, and probably for good reason, you know, your child, you don't need to know things, but then that still happens a lot in my life now. And I think that's because of the way my parents were raised, to keep things hidden, you know, children are seen and not heard all this sort of, like I said before, about, you know, you don't talk about your political choices. I could not like my dad and I have the best talk about politics. You know, I could not imagine going through my life not having a sounding board for talking about politics, you know, and for my children to, you know, to grow up understanding about the world, you know, there's things that you do want to talk to them about, you know, and not just hideaway or don't talk about that, you know, again, I respect you know, people were living in different times you know, I'm not I'm not bragging that that was the way it was then. But yeah, and I think that's a really powerful thing to say that you want your children to to really see you and to know you as a person and I think that's that's awesome. Yeah. Thank you Do you have anything else that you want to share that maybe you haven't brought up or anything else that's on your mind? You want to know it's just this has been a very juicy conversation. It's been great. It's just so it's so incredible to me. I mean, that I'm able to connect with you on the other side of the world you know, and like we have, we have a lot in common tell you when in a short time, like I feel like we have more in common than we've even uncovered. Just how important this all is. And I think that, you know, something that I saw today, and it makes me think about, right, I'm just thinking about it now. And I'll just say it, I'm, I, I'm in a mastermind with Amber Lee strim. She's a, she's a business coach. And she's really incredible. And she, she said something, she posted something in one of the captions, and it was like, talking about how she put on this, this in person events, when she was going through a time in her business, and, you know, and she was brave enough to do it. And then she did it year after year, and it grew and grew. But at the end, she was saying that, like, even if you're not in the place to, you know, put on inventory, you don't have the resources to XYZ, like, we have such a powerful stage, like every post, every podcast episode, every thing you create has such a world of opportunity attached to it and like could really be the thing that like, helps, and changes and does whatever we just did, and like. And even if it's a needle at a time, it's like the compounding effects of this work is incredible. I mean, it's just like, I've been at this for a year. And you know, I can say that it's been a very slow burn, but at the same time, like the, the consistency and being like this tapped into myself, and the work I'm putting out and being able to make these connections has, you know, I can feel like, oh, you know, look at the numbers and think one thing, but then if I really pull myself up and look back and understand like the body of work, and the connections and the discoveries and the transformations I've gone through, it's it's really incredible. So I just want to thank you for being being a stand for this as well. And like creating the work that you do and connecting with all the incredible artists, I'm honored to be a part of your show. Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you to say and yeah, likewise, yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like I feel the same way. We're all collectively contributing, contributing to a movement, I feel like things are really happening. And this is the time we'll look back on this time and go, you know, this was a significant period of our lives and, you know, society, Western society, in generals life, and we're a part of it, I feel like, you know, and I think that's the thing, because, perhaps previously, because of the work, the way the world was set up, there wasn't the internet or whatever, when someone did something, it was a big deal. Now, because we've all collectively got this access to, you know, the internet, we can do podcasts, we can do blogs, all this stuff, because there are so many people doing it. The reach might not be as broad. But that's the difference. There are so many people doing it now. You know, I feel like, you know, there's momentum in this and I just got goose bumps. If I get like, we are a ship, we are the ship, like you know, a thing isn't a thing until it's a thing. And then enough people I was just listening to. I think he's so cool. His name is Jeff Goins. He's a writer, and he has a podcast called he creator. And he was just talking about how you know, a thing isn't even a thing until someone comes up with it. And it's really weird at first because it's not an a thing. And then enough people believe it, and all of a sudden, that's the norm. And then, you know, and it's like, it's so true. And that's what, you know, all of these norms that we're combating through, like pulling the veil off, you know, that we are not separate from that we are we are doing the work on the ground floor of that. And I think it's so important. It's so incredible. And also, you know, even though it definitely is a, you know, the big pond a bunch, a little fish type of thing in some way, you know, leaning into who we truly are and like own the more we own ourselves, the more powerful we can be for whoever does find us and all of a sudden binge, like, oh my gosh, you were the vehicle that I needed this to come through, like kids. We've all been there where we hear something, and we know that we've heard that same sentiment a bajillion times before but there was something about the way this person said it in this moment that just was the thing you needed and unlocked you and you can never tell we know when that's going to happen but also there probably are no accidents right so yeah. I think you know, this divine timing like when you're ready for this message like yeah, I could tell you a million examples of Napoleon but you know, so many examples of you know, you're saying So you hear this and then one time you hear it, it's might not be delivered any differently, but it sticks in your right eye for you. Exactly. It's hilarious isn't it thank you so much for coming on Bianca. It just has been a really lovely conversation. I've just loved it so much. Thank you. And good luck with the rest of your endeavors doing your podcast and and yeah, just keep doing it. Because it's so good. So thank you so much, and I would be so honored and cannot wait to have you have you as a guest on my show as well. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.