Dr Melanie Cooper Australian mixed media visual artist + art historian S1 Ep07 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Melanie Cooper is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide South Australia, and a mother of 2. Melanie combines painting + drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet, stitching and rug making techniques. In this episode we chat a lot about art, as Melanie’s expertise in the long 18th Century allows us to delve into the role and treatment of women artists during this era. We also discuss the importance of sharing our experiences as mothers, and the role of judgment in our current society – and how it got there. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression** Melanie website See the Queen Victoria yarn bomb here Shop art supplies that Melanie uses here Podcast instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Dr. Melanie Cooper. Melanie is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide, South Australia, and a mother of two. Melanie combines painting and drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet stitching and rug making techniques in her art. In this episode, we chat a lot about art history as Melanie's expertise in the long 18th century, allows us to delve into the role and treatment of artistic women during this era. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression. Thank you for coming on, it's an absolute pleasure to have you. And I'm excited about the different sorts of things that you might be able to share as your role as an art historian, but you're also a visual artist. So let's start with that. Why don't you tell us about your own art practice? My art practice is pretty diverse. I as with my other work as well, I kind of consider myself to be an interdisciplinary artist. So I'm primarily a painter. But I also work across textiles and drawing and, you know, just a lot of a lot of different things I've been making. For as long as I can remember, like, even as a child I was, I've always been making stuff. My work is very personal to me it's very, it's, I guess it's a way for me to articulate things that I find very difficult to communicate verbally or in written language. I'm just kind of really interested in my, I mean, of course, my own experience, but also the spaces in between thoughts and ideas and experience and memory, like, you know, the things that we can't see, I try really hard to not just document experience, and those kinds of things, but also to kind of try and make my own thoughts and feelings visible in some form. So it's kind of it's a way for me to reconcile a whole heap of thinking and a whole heap of experience, but in a way that's really tangible. And so in a lot of ways, it's all about the process. For me, the end, the end point is always a great thing, because people can actually see it, but it's kind of it feels like it's work that's never finished, because I need to keep going. And it's almost ritualistic in a way, I guess, because I'm kind of quite often repeating myself, like, for example, in textiles, I'm using lots of the same sort of stitches. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking and kind of integrating all of those ideas and thoughts and memories and, you know, and, and responses to place as well, I just kind of draw lots of connections from the outside world and sort of it kind of comes in, and then I sort of spit it back out into some sort of form. I don't I don't really, it's a really, really hard thing to explain. Like, it's just it makes sense to me anyway. And hopefully, when people when people will look at it, hopefully they kind of, you know, bring their own ideas to it as well their own responses, and there's no right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to deliver a precise message. You know, people don't have to have a perfect takeaway from it, as long as they kind of, you know, respond to it in some way. I'm happy. So. And that is the great thing about I think, too, in any of its forms that people will take what they need from I suppose in their own interpretation of what, what they're in their life or what they're going through or anything like that. So you're working with textiles, Melanie, what kind of materials are you working with? So with the with my textiles, this is a little bit confusing for people sometimes I consider that to be part of my painting practice. So I work with textiles in the same way that I mean, I know it's a different material. But the way that I you approach that practice is the same way that I approach my painting with the same ideas and the same motivations and the same kinds of thinking. But I use knitting and crochet. And I also use traditional rug making techniques and just a little bit of stitching as well, but predominantly things like punching, which is punching through a hashing surface with a needle and knitting and crocheting pieces of fabric that I sort of manipulate and stitch down and explore with that kind of material material. Process is a really good way For me to sort of like think through a whole heap of stuff, and I kind of figure it out as I go, I'm very intuitive, I don't really sort of sit down and draw up a plan or anything, I kind of work it out as I go. And product, of course, it's always really important, you know, you, you do want people to engage with something that you're really proud of. And it needs to be aesthetically appealing in some way. Whether whether that's a really positive thing, or you know, something that's a bit more challenging for people, that's cool. But it really is, like, the the, for me the whole, it's the process, you know, it's the end product is really, really important, of course, but the process? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know that I would do it. If it wasn't for the process, you know, me like, I'm not just making stuff to decorate things. We thought we've got enough decoration. It's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's something that I still need to think about putting into words, because I find it really, really difficult. Yeah, it's kind of the process of experimentation and exploring, and just finding, finding out how far you can push something is really fun and really interesting as well. Yes, I like new techniques and, and working with things in different ways. And that sort of Absolutely. Tell me about your children. So I'm very fortunate to have a son who's almost 18, and a daughter, who is almost 11. So they're quite far apart in age. But they're just incredible. Little humans, you know, with very different different needs at the moment. They're both still at school, obviously. And, you know, they're both doing their own thing. And, you know, I'm, yeah, they're both. They're both very strong personalities. And of course, that comes with its own challenges sometimes, but I'm actually really proud of the relationship that I have with them. Both. Were really good mates. So I think, yeah, I love my children very dearly as all mothers do, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You say this look seven years between your toy? I've got seven years between my two. Yeah. Some people think, wow, that's huge. And in some ways it is. But in some ways, it's not. Either. It's a funny thing is, Oh, yeah. And it's, I think, I'll be interested to see how they grow as they get older, because my oldest is 12, or 13. And my little ones about to turn six. So at the moment, they have times when they absolutely cannot stand each other. But I think as they get older, and dig becomes out of that little little person stage. They might, I mean, they get on great, don't get me wrong, but things might not be quite as explosive. Do you know, honestly, things can be quite explosive with my kids. And like, that's why I say, you know, they're both very strong personalities. They're both, they're both very, very clever. And they know how to test each other. And they do they, they do get explosive. But the funny thing is as intense as that is, sometimes they also have this really intense love for each other. It's and it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll just walk into a room and I'm like, oh my god, you guys are having a hug right now. What's going on? Is everything okay? Yes, fine. Mom is totally fine. You're sure? Yeah. And it's also because I think they're very different places in their own development. Like they have very, very different needs. Like, you know, Seth, my son, he, at the moment, he just really needs his own space. Sometimes he needs his own privacy and all those sorts of things. Like he's merely an adult. And his little sister likes to kind of walk into his room unannounced and jeans and he's just like, oh, my god, get out. And you know, he's never like, he's just playing a game or something. It's not anything major, but he's just like, leave me alone. And she Yeah, of course, you know, sometimes she just wants to be around her big brother. But and he does it to her too, though. Sometimes she'll be quiet. You know, she'll be sitting on the couch or in her room doing her own thing. And he'll come in and he'll be like, all over and, you know, just in the mood for a joke. And she's like, Oh, no. Yeah, and it all kind of kicks off and I have to Yeah, yeah. It's also really lovely though, when you find them playing, like, you know, when they they take their own initiative to get the ball guy outside and kick her around the backyard together, that kind of stuffs really lovely. Yes. Something good is here. So you said before you've been creating you pretty much your whole life. Has that sort of changed then as you had your children as they came into Your Life, we starting to find that challenge the balance between you and your role as a mother. In different times of my life, definitely. So I can't, I mean, there's a few different things I could say about this sort of stuff. Like, you know, before having kids, I really believed that I needed one full solid day to get something done, you know, I always had this kind of idea that you had to have a full day. And if you didn't have that full day, nine to five kind of idea, whatever those hours were, it really like there's no point. But I've since learned, especially with my second, with Scarlett half an hour, you can actually achieve so much in half an hour. Because sometimes that's all you get. And I mean, it kind of fluctuates, or depending on what's going on with them and where you are, in state, like the stage of their life and stuff. There's been times where I found it incredibly difficult. Like, with my painting practice, for example, I like when I had my son, Seth, I found that really difficult to get back into for a while because I had quite bad postnatal depression. So that kind of was a bit of a block for me for a while. But then after a period of time, I kind of learned when I was sort of working through that I was drawing and things but I kind of went back to knitting, which is something that I've kind of always been doing since I was like about five, but then I sort of realized, you know, this is a really portable medium, and I can just pick it up and put it down, I don't have to go out and studio. So I think that's where it kind of really started becoming this thing that I've incorporated into my practice. And over time, I kind of just kept pushing it more and developing it more. And that's so that's always been there. Like I'm always, you know, carrying around knitting or crochet because it is so portable, and I can't sit on the couch and not do things. So if I have to sit on the couch and nurse a baby or rock a baby to sleep, you know. So like there's, it's there's different ways that you can still be creative, without having to go out into the studio without having to have an entire day. And, you know, try and figure out all the other logistics around that. So I've just, I think I've always sort of looked for ways that I can still fit stuff in. And, you know, like, when they're not sleeping and stuff, that's really good thinking time. So you can use that time in the middle of the night to kind of think about what do I need to do tomorrow, and you start planning and organizing your thoughts. So that when you do have that time, you can just jump straight in, he's not kind of lost, not knowing where to go, what direction to take, or what needs to be done, you can just sort of like jump in and be productive. And I think that's that kind of motivates you and gives you the energy to keep going as well. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that mother who doesn't like I don't want to say adversity, but you know, just the challenges sometimes that you face and the things that you kind of find yourself up against, that you weren't prepared for. I think that's really taught me that yeah, actually, I'm really good at improvising. And, and that's really fun in itself too. Because sometimes you kind of you end up with outcomes you couldn't predict or better outcomes than if you planned and organized everything completely perfectly and down to the last minute. Like, sometimes you just kind of go, you know, do things by the seat of your pants, and you get up the other side of you think, wow, that's actually really great. And that could lead to something else. You know, like, never in a million years would I like when I was painting in art school, I didn't think that I would be you know, knitting in my actual painting practice. I kind of thought that's the thing that I do when I watch TV. And you know, it's not really part of my, my serious art career. But now it definitely is. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun. I think you've learned so much from being a mom. Yeah. And having to having to restructure your own thinking and just make things happen. You know, not just sit around waiting for the time, but actually just making that time you have to, otherwise it will never happen. Yeah, the thing for me as well, like, it's almost like a it's a compulsion for me to make like, it always has been even as a kid like, I just always have to make something and it doesn't always have to be like a big finished painting. Sometimes it is just, you know, something with a lump of air dry clay or, you know, a drawing in the mud out in the backyard or something like, I've just always had to do something. And yeah, it's a it's a compulsion, I think. But it's also I was thinking about this the other day, I think it's also about making a space for yourself, like making art or even just making and staff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself, even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important, as an adult, when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time or it becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an adult. Absolutely. It's like, mental health, you know, and it's, and it's so connected with looking Yeah, looking after yourself. And so, for me, it's very much part of my identity. I think, like, it's, it's not like, the job, the great job that I've got that I go to, and I'll retire from one day, so something that I think is always has always been a part of who I am. Definitely isn't. Yeah, it's one day, you just get to hang it up and go, right i that's finished now. I'm retired. What do I do? Exactly? Exactly. Yes. It's, sometimes it would be nice to sort of like bundle it up and pack it away. But it's no, that's not an option. I don't think. Wanted to ask you just you talked about your painting, how you never thought that your meeting would become part of you the way I think you said you serious art practice? How did how did it become part? Did you one day just decide to combine it like how did it physically happen? Um, it's a very, it's a very good question. So when I was in art school, I, I realized that I detested oil painting, and I. And so I couldn't do live painting anymore. And I wasn't really interested in that anyway. And so I dropped out of that subject. And I had to do another elective and sort of make that as like a, not just an elective subject, but like a major subject, and it was rug making. And I was like, Wow, this sounds really cool. And it's using wool. Awesome, I'll do that. So I learned some techniques. And, you know, just kind of played with that for a bit and then put it away. And when I thought, I just kind of, I kind of just stuffed around with it a bit and picked it up, put it down, and just put it played with those ideas for a while. And I kind of experimented without really taking it very seriously. And then, you know, fast forward a couple of years, I became a member of a studio here in Adelaide called voting booth studios. And I shared that space with several other artists. And at the time, I think there was 12 artists, but I had brought all my things from my old studio into the space and was unpacking stuff and messing around with things and just having a look at what I had. And one of the things that I had was a half finished, rogue or wallhanging, I wasn't really sure what to call it at the time. I pulled it out as looking at it. And one of my friends looked at it and said, Oh, what's this, and I was just this thing that I've just been playing with. And he's kind of like, oh, that's, that's kind of really cool. Maybe you should think about finishing it. I was really, okay. And, you know, I just wasn't at that time, I just wasn't really sure what I was doing. Because, you know, a whole heap of other stuff had just happened. And I was coming through a difficult place. But I just kind of thought, you know, this is an easy thing to pick up and just go on with, I'll maybe I'll figure out what I'm doing next. So I just kind of kept working on this thing. And then it became a finished piece. And I was like, wow. And there was just this one little engineer alpha, I don't really know what to do on this end bit. And I was mucking around with some knitting at home. And I just kind of something told me or compelled me to put that piece of knitted fabric onto the rug, and just see what it looks like. And so I was just like, wow, this is another way of combining surfaces and textures and different techniques, and actually really kind of like what's happening. And so that's what I started doing there. I sort of started messing around with it. And I was really excited by what I had discovered. And so I just kind of thought, what can I do next. And so I started making lengths of knitted fabric and started stuffing about with it in the next pieces and just kind of exploded from there. And I kind of realized, well, I can actually use knitting in the same way that I do. You know, brush strokes and different ways of applying paint, I can actually just make the paint and manipulate it and stitch it down or do something with it. And yeah, the more I do it, the more I do the more ideas or come up with and sometimes my head is just like swimming with ideas. I get really anxious because I don't know if I'm gonna get time to do it all because, you know, that's the exciting thing about knitting, sewing, and especially crochet too. It's only a couple of stitches. But the different ways that you can combine those stitches with different materials and different ways of like different combinations, you end up with so many different kinds of results. So it's exciting. And yeah, it just kind of it just kind of unraveled. And, like a very natural process. It just kind of kept expanding. From there. Yeah, really, that's really awesome story. And I think that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm really grateful for being in that studio at that time. Because, you know, if it hadn't have been for someone walking past and looking at and going, yeah, that's pretty cool. Maybe you should see what happens if you finish it. Like just that little bit of encouragement from a friend, it was like, Yeah, okay, maybe this is worth thinking about. And, you know, the same friend was really amazing, too. I credit him with encouraging me when I had my exhibition, my first solo after that, will not my first solo but my first solo for a number of years, he sort of said to me, you know, the back is the back of that piece is really cool. Maybe you should think about hanging it so people can see the back as well. And that's, that was another really important part of developing my practice as well. He sounds like a pretty useful bloke to have around. I think, yeah, he's he's very generous person. And I think that's also one of the virtues and one of the great advantages of being in a studio with other people working around you. Because sometimes, you can give each other that sort of feedback, or, you know, just the comment of someone walking past is enough to make you think twice about, yeah, actually, maybe I won't throw that in the bin, you know, maybe that is worth spending some more time on. And that's been that's been incredibly valuable to me. So I'm very, I'll always be grateful for that. So you've done also yarn bombing, create, whatever, you're gonna make your knitting or crocheting, and then you go and put it out on structures in the town, or in the city? Yes, yes, I have. And I've had a lot of fun doing that, with a group of friends. We haven't done anything for a while, that tried to make something happen just after COVID. But it kind of fell through. That's a whole other story. But yeah, that's something that I got an enormous kick out of, I have to say, because it's different. It's a bit different now. But originally, the idea was, you make something and you attach it to a public structure somewhere, but you have to do it without being caught and without anyone seeing you because it's kind of illegal. So it's kind of like, yeah, hardcore ladies hit the town. You know, so much fun. The first time the first tag I ever did was just like, this crochet length of bright blue fabric, kind of like a scarf. And I went down one of the alleyways, just for Rundle Street, and my heart was beating. So it's in the middle of the day, and I was like, whipped it on around this pole, stitching it as fast as I could. And my heart was beating so loud, it was roaring you might use skipped off down the street afterwards on such a high. It was just, it was just this simple little band of blue, but it was like yes, I have done this really cool. Outlaw thing. Yeah, that was enormously fun. And then after that, we're just, you know, I kind of need some bow ties, and I attach these bow ties on to, you know, sculptures of people's heads and stuff down North terrorists and things and in the Botanic Gardens. But the really the really cool thing was, many years ago, I can't remember exactly what year it was. But there was this sort of like a street art festival thing that was happening. A former student of mine, Peter Drew, who's now done lots of lots and lots of other things. He was organizing groups of people to paint and, you know, sort of decorate, mini skips. And so I can't I can't remember exactly where I found out about it. I think it might have been a Facebook page or something like that. There was an idea to cover it with knitting like the st. yarn bombing stuff. So I kind of just went on my own. I had no idea I didn't had I didn't know anyone who was going to this thing. I just happened to meet this bunch of gorgeous women. Very different ages, very different backgrounds, and they're all just making these squares to cover this dumpster. It was so much fun and we just got along so well and so we kind of over a period of time. found ourselves in a group that we decided to call a play on the sly. It was enormous fun. We've done so many projects we did. You know, there was a festival coId called, boy you street art festival. There was a whole exhibition in the Festival Theatre. There are a couple of bank sees and other bits and pieces in there and we were asked to cover, I think are called the Mellie tree poles outside. That's like an installation. I'm not sure if it's still there. But we covered these big long poles with, you know, different lengths of fabric and attached insects and flowers and stuff to it. That was so much fun. But one of my favorite projects was a nano nano reckless Julie Collins and I went made a dress for the statue of Queen Victoria. And we had it installed by the Adelaide City Council at like, two o'clock in the morning. They had, they had cherry pickers and council workers attaching this big knitted dress with cable ties to the statue of Queen Victoria. And it was it was so much fun. And it was part like it was around Christmas time. So it was when the whole square was decorated with different things. And just going along, to see that in the middle of the day. And seeing all these people walking past it stopping looking and taking photos of this thing that you'd made. It was just so much fun, because, you know, you're just sort of like sitting there watching everybody else getting so much joy out of this thing that we just did. Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that. We've done stuff for Matthew Flinders and Douglas Mawson, one of my friends met him at balaclava. We've done things for the Robert Burns statue at the front of the State Library. Yeah, things like that. There's been lots of stuff that the group has done, and it's just been wonderful. Yes, we haven't doing that. We're still within the group doing stuff now. Um, well, we were going to do a project for Christmas last year, back in November. And I didn't know how to say in a short way, because I don't want to sort of I don't want to sound negative. But we were asked to do a project. And then the street that we were asked to do it on. People on the the people in the street like the business owners decided no, we don't want that. And that was really, that was really sad. And I found that really upsetting because for some of the people in the group that hadn't actually been able to work on anything, as a group or for themselves for a long time, there was a one mom in there, I know that she was, you know, it was really important to her to get together and to do this thing, because she hadn't done anything for herself for a really long time. And so all of a sudden, we had this thing that was really exciting. And we were we were so excited about getting back together and doing something and it was just taken away because of mismanagement and miscommunication. You know, like the person who was organizing the thing and had asked us to do it hadn't spoken to the business owners properly. So all of a sudden, she just sort of like sent me an email one day and said, You know what, sorry, they just don't want you here anymore. And it was devastating. Actually. It was really, it was really sad. Like, I was fine with it, because I had my own stuff to go with. But as I was saying some of some of the group members hadn't hadn't been doing their own thing for a long time. And it was very important to them that we were doing it. And yeah, all of a sudden, it just wasn't there. So yeah, we do we need to get back together and do something because I think, you know, we just had so much fun together. There's no reason that we haven't done anything for a while. I think it's just like the whole COVID thing and people being busy and life getting in the way. So I think yeah, we just we just need to do it. We just, we just really need to Yeah, you know, put a date in the diary and get together and do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much fun. And we do we all work together so well. We just have very different lives in very different directions. And I think that's that's the only thing that kind of makes it a bit tricky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking about when you put your pieces up, and then you see people their reaction to that. I get so much joy and I it almost it always makes me feel like a little child even reminds me of like Easter time when when I was a kid and you'd be looking for your Easter eggs and you find them hidden in the garden and that amazing feeling of finding things. That's how I feel when I see people's creations all around the place. I just love it. It's such a beautiful I love it too, because you, I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, it is that generosity and that sharing and the joy. But it's also like, it kind of feels a little bit naughty or a little bit not naughty, but like a little bit. You know, people, people being creative outside of the prescribed conventional spaces of institutions and galleries and high end things, it's kind of making things accessible. And it's also like the random accidental thing of finding stuff as well as it's kind of, you know, I'm gonna make this thing and I'm going to put it out there because I can, I'm not going to ask anybody's permission to do it, not going to apply to do it. I'm just going to do it. And I love I love that. It's so it's so much fun. And it's, you know, of course, it's always with the best intentions, but it's also a little bit, you know, it's very empowering actually think it's really empowering. I know it is for me. Yeah, I think it's incredibly generous to because you're not, you're not creating it with any sort of expectation of, I mean, you aren't getting something back. But like, you know, it's not a monetary gain, you're doing it because you love it. And because you know, you're going to bring joy to paper, I think that's just beautiful. I wanted to utilize your expertise as an art historian throughout this discussion, could you just let us know first what the era or the period that you are really drawn to with your art history. So my area of expertise is the 18th century. So that's, that's what I know most, the deepest part of my knowledge and research has always has been the 18th century. Insane. I'm really fascinated and have a really solid understanding of the 20th century as well, because I've studied that in depth too. But also, of course, I'm interested in contemporary art, art of the art that is being made now and the very recent past to and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think researchers, like artists, they develop their interests and their ideas in lots of different directions at the moment and kind of looking more things like iconoclasm as well, which kind of stretches across all periods really iconoclasm for for those who don't know, is the destruction or accidental or intentional of artworks, or buildings and monuments and things like that, too. Yeah. So what drew you to that? It's the 1700s, isn't it? If it's the 18th century, so how it works? Yeah. No, that's cool. And to make things even more confusing, people have different definitions around time periods as well, that so for, for the 18th century, we used to say, oh, you know, that's 1700 to 1800. But the truth is, most people now call it like, referred to that period as the long 18th century. So it's sort of like, T straddles the late 70s, sort of like 1685 1690, through to about 1820. And people kind of debate those precise use, but it does kind of overlap, centuries, either side is 70. Is that because of the work? Was it was the era of that art in that time? Or is that just how historians talk about time periods? It's more around world events and things like that as well. It's not it's not a facade. I mean, the hard thing with art history, whatever period you're looking at, it's, we kind of like to think in nice sort of compartmentalized boxes with nice start and finish points. But the truth is, is that things just overlap. And, and there's not like one linear narrative or style or thing that's happening. There's lots of different things that are happening all at the same time. And we're only really starting to do a better job at recognizing that now. There's multiple histories, and multiple styles and things happening all at the same time. So really history. It's not like this one linear thing. It's like a big spiderweb of, you know, and it's really messy. And that's, that's the thing that makes it really interesting and dynamic, but we're not very good at thinking about things that way. We insist on putting things in nice, neat little categories and everything has to have a neat timeframe. Like it can't be like 1521 to 1673 because that just doesn't feel neat and contained for us. We have this need to contain things, which is crazy because that's not how time Her explore life. I must point out and acknowledge though that that's a very Western way of thinking, like, I'm sure like, I don't have the understanding to talk about this at length, but you know, other cultures and other strange other philosophies or other systems of doing things, think about things in very different ways. So what I'm referring to is, it's a Western perspective. It's not, it doesn't account for everybody, for sure. So within that time period, that long 18th century, what, what drew you to that era, I suppose, like how, why, why that period for you? This goes back to art school. My practice is very, very different to the 18th century, I my my own art practice is radically different. But the reason I was drawn to that is because when we went to when I was in art school, we had to do art history and theory. And we had this lecture in first year, who was very handsome and very charismatic. And everybody hung on every word, he said. And so we went to every lecture thinking, these lectures are amazing, and they're brilliant. And I was one of the fans. I thought he was wonderful. But there was one subject that he did. And it was kind of, I think it was called, like the history of Western art, or something like this. And he started with the caves of Lascaux. And he kind of worked his way through lecture, lecture, the lecture going through the history of Western art. And I remember this one day, he, I can't remember the name of the lecture, but he did the 18th century in one slide. Like I just like, I just have to pause there, because it still blows my mind. It totally blew me away, like, you'd gone. You know, one lecture might have been on surrealism and data, like an entire one hour lecture on surrealism and data, which is a movement in 19, the 1920s, like, you know, a response to the wars and things quite, it's quite a complex movement. But the 18th century, he kind of did this thing where he put up an image by a painter called fraggin, ah, he did a painting called the swing, a put this, this slide up, and I was fresh out of arts, I mean, fresh out of high school, too. So I was very young, I really didn't know very much. And he just put this slide up, and everyone erupted into laughter. And he said, this is like, the 18th century chocolate box fluff and nonsense. That's it. See later, let's jump into the 19th century. And I was just kind of like, I remember sitting there thinking, Why does everybody think this is funny? And why does he just wipe out an entire century with one slide, like, to me, I was like, I had no interest in painting that way, I had no interest in that style from my own work at all. But looking at that painting, I thought, wow, this is actually really, really skilled work. It's really complex. There's all these things happening in that picture. I don't understand what it is. But there's a lot more to this thing. I was just intrigued, absolutely intrigued. And then, you know, I also saw films like Amadeus, and, you know, all the all the period movies and stuff, and I just kind of developed this love for, you know, the 18th and 19th centuries. And then, when I went to study art history, I did four subjects and kept going and, you know, the my love for the 18th century grew. And I was kind of when I came to do my masters. I was like, do I do my Masters on Australian abstraction? Or do I do it on the 18th century, and then I went 18th century because I feel like I know and understand a lot about abstraction, but don't really understand the 18th century enough. So that's what took me that way. And I think it's also because images of that period of very complex nerve, very rich and iconography, which is, you know, the study of signs and symbols to kind of untangle what a pitcher is telling us. And I think that kind of tapped into my love for detective novels, and Agatha Christie and solving the clues. So I think that's what drew me in the most was just, you know, again, fun, lots of fun. And, you know, that period is fascinating, because, so, so much is happening in a very, very short timeframe. When you think about it, so much stuff for life is radically changing. And we've, we've inherited so much of that, you know, bad things as well as good things in within that period of time. There were lots of different movements, or was it the same? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll just very, very quickly tell you that the difference between the 20th century In the age of the long, 18th century, the long 18th century is kind of broken up into three major styles you could argue maybe for. But the 20th century is a very rapid succession of multiple movements. So there's lots of movements all throughout the century, and some of those overlap as well. So, you know, I'd have to sit down and write them down and can't off the top of my head, but lots and lots of movements happening very quickly. So some movements might kind of, you know, be defined by a naysayer decade, but and they resurface and influence other artists as well. So there's lots of overlap. And there's just lots of stuff happening. The 18th century is a century that has been neglected in research and scholarship until up until about the last 10 or 20 years, you know, people just didn't take it very seriously. So there's still a little bit of debate and a little bit like there's a lot of work to be done still. The start of the period, some people refer to as late Baroque, but it's really the Rococo, which is that the very highly decorative style, and then the, from the Rococo, we move into neoclassicism, which is, you know, the more classical austere kind of painting where it's all about heroic virtue, and those kinds of things leading up to the revolution. And then, around the time, like after the revolution, you have a movement called romanticism, which kind of spills over into the 19th century. And that's where you have artists like Turner doing those beautiful images of shipwrecks and storms and things like that. So we're going back to nature and the the power of nature and the sublime and those kinds of things. So it's really like, three year three movements in one century, and they do overlap in some of those artists. So for example, some of the, the artists working the Rococo style, kind of they also, you know, depending on when they were born, and who they were working for, they do kind of creep into the other styles as well. So some of the new classical artists move into romanticism, some of them don't, some of the Rococo artists move into neoclassicism, it really depends on where they are. And I guess that that notion of things have to have a start and finish, it just doesn't work like that things are all overlapping. And, yeah. And it's really formed and shaped by what's happening in the political and social cultural context as well, like, you know, so the easy thing there is like the the revolution, the French Revolution had an enormous impact on artists. So you do see a lot of things happening in the artwork that, you know, as what an art historian does is we look at works that are made in different time periods, and try and understand them in the context that they were made in as well. And that helps us understand what people were concerned by what people were thinking and how lives were lived at that period. Art historians tend to specialize. Like, for example, I specialize in the 18th century, but also look at contemporary art. Also look at modern art, sometimes I look a little bit at the 17th from the 19th. But I couldn't tell you very much about the Byzantine period, for example, there's just so much stuff out there. Art historians, we don't memorize dates and titles of paintings and things because that's connoisseurship. What we do is we look at objects and images as primary sources of material that can tell us it's kind of it's like detective work, you know, historians look at letters and documents and things and to tell the story of a person or what's happening in a period of time. And that's what we're doing with objects and images, where, you know, we're talking about the history of the work and the artist itself, but we're also recognizing it, doesn't it? Nothing is made in a vacuum, like, you know, artists are working in all different kinds of circumstances and political climates. And it really does shape what's being made. And not just visual art, but music and literature as well. Yeah. I mean, I've given very, very short, brief overviews of things. I've felt I have simplified things a lot. But I think, like, for example, when I when I say, you know, that 18th century has been a period that hasn't been as loved up until now, it's very different now. But when I started doing my Masters, people were still dismissing the Rococo, which is like the earliest period of the 18th century, there was some really groundbreaking research happening and the art historian is really fighting for the for that area of the discipline to be taken seriously, and they've done amazing work since but I think, you know, art history, it's like any other discipline, I guess, you know, it is susceptible to fashion you know, sometimes it It's hard to, you know, study an Australian colonial art, you know, I don't know, like it does go through fashion. But I think the 18th century really was quite overlooked. I'm not sure about the other disciplines, but definitely in art history, it was overlooked and not taken very seriously for a long time. That's his, like you said there was so much happening at that time, there was so much going on, and so much changing. And then it's like, oh, we're not actually going to write it. You know what I mean? Well, I can, again, I'll give you a very short answer for that, um, things like neoclassicism and romanticism, which happens later in the century were studied and taken more seriously. Like I, you know, I, like I was saying I did sort of condense what I was saying, and I simplified it a lot. They were taken seriously, much more seriously, for a long time than the first part of the century, which is that period that I refer to, or everyone refers to as the Rococo. And that is, because when we look at and this is, this is why that slide that I mentioned, was laughed at. Because it is so pretty, it is so feminine, it is so over the top decorative, it's ostentatious, it's, you know, it's just the height of frivolous for some people. And, you know, people kind of look at that, and the thing Oh, that's so ridiculously chocolate box, which is exactly what the lecturer said, like, there's, it's all feminine, decorative nonsense, there's no substance to it. And in that period of time, you know, women were powerful patrons, and they were really helping to shape fashion. And so, you know, sadly, because there were so many women involved, it was denigrated as fluff and nonsense, and it's totally not, like, once you start researching and looking at those images properly, and like looking at the culture in the social context of the period, it was enormously sophisticated and very, very progressive. Um, but, you know, historic later historians, you know, sort of later, later, from the 19th century, in particular, kind of looked back on that time and said, Oh, it's, it's all just feminine. You know, let's look at the stuff that's much more serious. And, you know, much more interesting, because, you know, it's about war. You know, the forces of nature and exploration and things, which is, of course, fascinating. But that's, that's really why people didn't take the early period of the 18th century. Seriously, for a long time. Yeah, because it was too feminine. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, it's just about flowers and puppies, you know, but there's a lot there's so much more. That's hilarious. Yeah, and it's a very simplistic view, because, of course, they're really looking at, you know, paintings and fashion and things. But, you know, the Rococo, you have to look at what was happening in, you know, maths and architecture, like there is that period of the Rococo period, and that style, that movement informed mathematics. I don't understand how that is, but it does. I'm not a mathematician, but I have read that it informed architecture and garden design and, you know, philosophy. It's incredibly rich period, the artists were talking to, you know, writers and philosophers and musicians, they were all generating and exchanging ideas and these really amazing communities. Yeah, like you said, before the community having people together, and yeah, bouncing ideas off of each other. So we briefly briefly touched on the involvement of women in that era, during that time were women painting, or were they more, like you said, the patrons of that era. So this is really this is really, really interesting. So both in that period of time, you know, the, I'm trying to think of how to make this a short story, not a very long one. So, in that period of time, women, I've got to be careful how I say this, because I'm not saying women were completely liberated from, you know, systems of patriarchal oppression because they certainly weren't. But women with money and power became very influential patrons. So one patron in particular, I'll give you one example Madame de Pompadour or was the king's favorite. She was a woman from a middle class background, she worked her way up. And she became a very, very influential patron of the arts. And she was a very good friend to artists and philosophers, musicians, scientists, she was an intellectual woman. And she held her own salons. And she, yeah, she patronized, you know, she, she commissioned artists to, and not just visual artists, but all kinds of artists to make work for her. And so that kind of patronage was really, really important to artists, you know, in sustaining their careers and their incomes, but also in shaping the visual culture of the time as well. And so yes, women with money and power and privilege, were definitely heavily involved in shaping the visual culture. For artists, female artists, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. There were some really, and I'll use the word exceptional. And some some art historians do use that term, too. There were exceptional art, women artists who had the support to train in, you know, studios that have their brothers or their fathers, for example. And at that time, women weren't allowed to go into the academies, except for a couple of women that we call the exceptional women. So for example, Angelica Kauffman, and Elizabeth Vichy LeBron, were two examples of female artists who worked in like they entered, they were permitted entry into the French Academy. And they became very successful artists. And they worked for the crown. And for example, LeBron and Kaufman, they worked for the Queen's at the time as well, for Marie Antoinette. And so they were very good friends of very powerful people. But that was quite rare. It wasn't, it wasn't as common. It was, it was much. No, I think, I think the thing about being a woman artists at that time was, you know, you really needed to have the support of men around you, like you needed to, you know, have, especially early in your life, because you sort of started training, as a child, or as a very young adult, you really needed to have access to a studio. And that was really out of the reach for females, unless you had a brother or a father, you might have been helping them make their work in the studio and have access to materials, someone might look at what you were doing, and say that's really, that's really great, we're going to try and get you some teaching, they might go and work with another artist and you know, gain some more skills. But the process is much more difficult for a female to become a professional academic painter. There were also other artists who, and this is where it gets. Again, I don't I don't want to go on and on too much, because it's not an art history lesson. But there were other artists who worked in pastels, for example, they didn't do the traditional academic painting, they use pastels to make beautiful images of flowers and portraits and things. And some of those women were working very independent of the academy. And that's how they sort of sustained their practice. But they weren't considered professional in the same way that the members of the academy and the painters to the Crown were. So you had different groups, I guess the thing was, gaining entry into the academy was that you had to, you had to sort of like, do a whole heap of training and learning first, but then to enter into the academy, you had to paint what they what we call an academy reception piece. So it was always like it had to be a grand painting. With a mythological or historical subject matter. It couldn't be a portrait or a landscape. It had to be like a religious work or something like that. And then that was judged and if that was good enough, then they could enter into the academy. But when I shouldn't say too, when I say exceptional for the women, it wasn't just that they were exceptionally talented or exceptionally good. What I mean by that is that women like Angelica Kauffman, for example, she she was very successful. She was an independent professional artist. She was considered exceptional, not just because of her talent, but the fact that she was a woman. You know, it's like, women aren't really supposed to be good at these things. Women are, you know, the too imaginative. They're too irrational and emotional to be doing work. In the same capacity as men, right? Well, because because she's a woman, she's exceptional. And it's a heartbreaking thing to say like, and I still I find that really difficult because you know, in that period women, like Pompadour, for example, she was the king's favorite she was a powerful patron she was an intellectual she, she was also a printmaker, she was doing all these amazing things. She was, she was, of course, very, very powerful and privileged because of the position she was in. But she was also someone who came from a middle class background and worked her way up. But these, these women were standout figures. And we we call them exceptional, because that's not that's not the normal life of a woman in that period like that they are elite women. And even even when you do have privilege behind you, you're still you still have to go the extra mile to, you know, advance yourself and to prove your capacity more than your male counterparts. Do, you know, you have to work harder to get there and to keep that position. As you it's really, because men and women were considered to be completely opposite, like men were the rational creatures capable of higher thinking and academic pursuit and women were nurturers and mothers and imaginative creatures prone to hysteria, things like that. Let's see exactly how they spoke about them. You know, women, women had the creative impulse, but they're also too imaginative and emotional to sort of harness those qualities into our interior rational way to make something more, more worthy of the academy, for example, I don't really know how to explain it. It's, yeah, they couldn't harness all of that stuff that creative people have, in a way that was balanced and reasoned enough to achieve, you know, a great work of art. Yes, it's like the eyes of men. Yeah, in the eyes of men. And so that's an even in art criticism, like, we do have documents where art critics are saying, oh, you know, this particular artists would be much better, you know, doing their paper flower cutouts, because they were looking at crafting. And this is where our denigration of craft comes from, too. That's associated with the feminine stuff. So they're kind of I don't know, you're not really good enough to be a professional painter, just go into your crafty stuff instead, you know, is that hierarchy? It's very gendered? Yeah. I think that we are getting better at that. But I think that kind of does still persist, sometimes. So these women that you talk about that went to the academy, where they mothers as well. This is where I'm not, I don't know a lot about their biography. I know that LeBron had one daughter, and I think her name was Xian. And she actually appears in lots of her portraits. I don't know their story very well, I think. I think this little girl was in lots of portraits. And so she would have been very close to her mother at that time. But for some reason, I think, later in life, their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm not really sure why. But you know, she was her mother was painting her, so she was subject matter. And there are, of course, other artists, especially in the 20th century, who have used and postmodern period as well, who have used their children as part of their artworks. Yeah. Is that something I'm really interested in? Is that that this challenge between their work and their role as a mother, is that something that women artists have faced in the past? I mean, I'm sure that it can you say you can you say it in the work? Or does it come out in the work or is it? Is it something that you've you can research? That makes sense? There's the Oh, wow. It's like, you know, there's so many different ways of being an artist, and there's so many different ways of being a woman in so many different ways of being a mother. So I think, like, for example, Barbara Hepworth, I'm just pulling out examples as I think of them. Barbara Hepworth was a sculptor and her work is quite abstract, but I know that she, she really considered being a mother integral to her practice. I don't know a lot about her work, but I know that she did consider her children to be as, like very influential on her like she loved being a mother and she thought that was really important to her practice, but also know that there are lots of artists like feminist artists who would have loved to have children but didn't have children because they knew having children would have a big, like a detrimental impact. on their career, so there are artists who have consciously made the choice not to have children. Louise Bush was another artist and nothing she had five children. She, again thrived on being a mother, I'm not sure how that shaped her practice for her. But there's another artists birth Maura, so an impressionist artist, and her daughter is, again, provide subject matter for her. We have lots of images where you see her daughter making an appearance. And I think she, I think her daughter was a model for other artists as well. So in, in lots of ways children have been subject matter for artists. In other ways, they've just, you know, I suppose, been around and provided their mums with energy. And, you know, I don't Yes, it's fair, it's very different for all artists, I think. I have friends who are mothers and artists now and I know, a couple of them motherhood is a very, like, it's a central theme in their practice. And their work is very specifically about motherhood and about their children. So I think I kind of get the sense that it's easier to make that kind of artwork now than it has been, like in the early modern period, for example. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say, too, is just going back to the early modern period, there's lots of artists. This is another thing that's really sad. There's lots of other artists who are very, very good painters, but a lot of their work has been lost or destroyed. So a lot of their work we just don't even know, we don't have record of and there are other artists working in the Baroque and Renaissance periods, for example, where their workers that we were starting to learn now their work has been mis attributed to male artists. Ah, so there's a lot of stuff we just don't know yet. Hopefully, we do uncover more. But, you know, there are other artists who are very prolific, and then they have children, and, you know, their career finishes, or slows down, or some artists have been fortunate enough to have husbands who were very, very supportive and have nurtured their careers, other artists. I can't remember her name. Now. I read this in passing the other day. She was a composer. She was forbidden to practice by her husband when she had children. So she just stopped. And I think I'm trying to think of her name. It's just escaped me, which is really terrible. She was associated with the Bauhaus artist. So I think what happened with her is she stopped practicing. But it took over a period of years, it took her an enormous toll on her health and well being. And for some reason, I think her husband was convinced, actually, no, you need to let her do her work again. And so she did do some work before she died. But she lost a lot of time. Yeah. Well, that's what her name was. I have, I'll have to go back through the book that I was reading the other day and find her name for you if you're interested. Because she's Yeah, composer. I think her husband, I'm not sure if he was an artist, but he was definitely associated with the Bauhaus school, which is designers and artists in Germany. Yeah, I don't. It's just something that I came across the other day. I don't know very much about that about her. But that just kind of really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. terribly sad. So I think there's a lot more we could we could say, but it hasn't been written and recorded or research yet or hasn't been found yet or it's been raised. Yeah. In terms of your identity, as a mother, I asked my guests this question about, I do the air quotes, is it important to you to be more than just a mom and I say just a mom, because I know that's not a correct statement? Is it important for you to keep that identity and not become mum? Just mum? Absolutely. Um, for me, it's vital. And I think, again, as I was saying earlier, I think that's a really big part of my mental health. You know, being an artist, I guess is at the core of my identity. And I think it always has been, but also in terms of my children looking at me, I think, you know, it's important for both of them, not just my daughter, but for my son to to see that, you know, women, even in their roles as mothers and nurtures they're multifaceted multi dimensional beings and, you know, we have our own interest, not just career or art was have our own likes and dislikes and responses to things, we have our own feelings around stuff. You know, things impact us as much as they impact someone else would we hold everything together, but we need to be looked after as well. And sometimes we need to look after ourselves. And you know, that's critical. It's absolutely critical. And, you know, one day, we're not going to be doing the, the, the intense hands on mothering where our children are so dependent on us, they're going to go and live their own lives. And, you know, they need to, they need to acknowledge that we have our own lives going on as well. And we need to acknowledge that we need to take that we need to hold on to that. Because otherwise, you know, there's so much I think there's so much potential loss, if you don't, hold on, hold on to something for yourself. And I can't imagine what that would be like. Yeah, and I also feel like, as a, as a mother, myself, I never wanted to be that authoritarian, just just mum kind of person, I want it to be a friend, I want it to be someone that they would, you know, feel comfortable coming to want to have around later on in life. And they're doing their own thing, too. You know, I don't want to just be the mum who does everything for everybody. I want to be the person who is counted on as a friend as well. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's motherhood Being a mother is a multi dimensional thing. It's not just you do the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning, taking the kids to school, changing the nappies. It's much more than that. Like, there's, there's a whole unique, amazing individual underneath all of that. And that person still needs to live. Like, you know, and they need to, they need to thrive like everybody else does. Yeah, it's important, obviously, important to you, for your children to say that in you to recognize Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, they're not getting the best of me. And I know, of course, there are days, they're not getting the best of me because I'm tired and worn out. And I haven't given myself enough time or something. But that's my responsibility. Right? Like, you know, I can't, I was saying to my cousin who's a single father the other day, he's really struggling, being a single dad in lockdown sometimes. And I said to him, like, if you don't, if you don't put self care at the top of your list, you can not be the best dad for your child. Long term. You can't sustain it like, you do have to look after yourself. Yeah, whatever. And that looks different for everybody. Yeah, no, but let's see. Yeah, absolutely. I really value the stay at home mum, as well, as much as I do the working mom, you know, I think we've got to be careful of, not sort of, I worry sometimes that we diminish the role that mums have if they choose to opt out of a career because they want to stay at home. I think that's a really powerful, meaningful, valuable thing to do. I think that's incredible. I know that I'm not capable of that. But also know that mums who are doing that, even if they're not working in a job that's paid and acknowledged, it's more important for them to maintain a sense of their identity, because, you know, otherwise, there's a danger of losing themselves in that. And then when their kids leave, like I was saying, what's left, you know, they need to have something that's just for them for themselves. Do you know what being a mum is? bloody difficult. It's probably one of the hardest jobs in the whole world. It is the hardest job in the whole world. For lots of different reasons. I think like it's, it's incredibly tough. And I think yeah, like I was saying, I think doing the stay at home mom thing is the toughest gig of all and I know that I'm not capable of that. I have an immense admiration for people who are doing that. They deserve everything, they deserve all the credit and they deserve that timeout and they deserve being looked after and acknowledged and honored and supported and I worry that they don't get that enough. I worry that even as women we don't give them that enough so I guess then that sort of leads me into the the concept of mum guilt. I think after you know, after the podcast that you're doing, I think you're becoming the expert on this. So I would love to know what you think on that. I think you know what I think I know that I've definitely suffered mother guilt for a different reason. There's a couple of strands of thinking here that I've got. So I think the whole thing with mum do I think, is reflective of a deeply patriarchal society that we live in. And what I'm going to say is I don't think that it's, and I'm trying to be careful about how I word this. I don't think it's necessarily men who are telling us to feel guilty. I feel like we're doing that to each other. I feel like I'll give you an example of this. When I, when I had my children, I was super, super lucky. I was able to breastfeed really easily, like I had absolutely no problem, I loved it. And it was, it was just like, falling away, oh, when my cousin had a child, not long after, and she found it incredibly difficult to breastfeed. She tried everything she could think of. And she was in agony. And I don't really know the particulars, but I know she really, she gave it a good crack. And she ended up having her her baby bottle fed and this nose. So this is like 18 years ago, too. It's not like yesterday. So I need to say things are changing. But, you know, the pressure and the judgment and the criticism that she got for that choice came from other women. And she really struggled with that guilt for a long time of like, I can't feed my child, the way everyone's telling me I should be. I'm not a good mom. And I'm like that, that is, to me, one of the most damaging things that we can do, is judging each other and not supporting each other. I think living in a patriarchal society means that if you're socialized as a heteronormative, woman, or girl, you're also taught that we're in competition with each other in lots of different ways. And I think that comes out in motherhood too. Like, if your child isn't sleeping all the way through at six weeks, you're doing something wrong. If you take a day home by yourself, and you're not working, you're doing something wrong. If you can't breastfeed, you're doing something wrong. If you don't give birth, naturally, you're doing something wrong. So I think I really feel like certainly for me, that's where a lot of guilt initially came from. I don't really do that anymore. Like, sometimes I kind of struggle with putting myself first like I bang on about that all the time. But I'm not always very good at doing that. But you know, my guilt, or my shame, I shouldn't say shame came from experiencing postnatal depression with my son. You know, I felt such shame for that. Because I really, at that time, I don't believe it anymore. But at that time, I really felt like I wasn't a good mom. And you know, and I think the other thing is, it's not always what we say to women is what we don't say to women, you know, we at that time, I know it's different. Now, I know it's changing. But at that time, people weren't really talking about postnatal depression, and I was terrified. I thought, you know, what, if I tell my doctor that something's not right, I think they might say that I don't deserve to have my child. Like, you know, I was honestly I was, I was petrified. And then, when things kind of settled down for me, and I was on medication, I just had that overwhelming shame. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing I'm not doing a good enough job. Like, I'm not as amazing as that lady over there with her five kids is, you know, like, was so in love with this little baby, but I couldn't get it right. And something was wrong, and I couldn't understand it. So I think, yeah, I think that's the closest that I've really had to that full on mom guilt. And I just kind of feel like, we need to do more as women to encourage and support each other. But talk about and this is why I think your podcast is so amazing. We need to share all the crap stuff because there's so much crap stuff. And I'm sorry, being a mom is amazing. And it's an honor, it's a privilege, but there is so much crap in it. There's so much stuff that there's so much stuff that hurts there's so much stuff that's ugly and demoralizing and upsetting. And so many so many things that other people just don't understand. But you know, we need to at least acknowledge it and we need to, we need to tell our own children. You know what? Childbirth isn't easy. And it's okay, if you feel like shit after you've had your child like it's okay. Like all of these things are okay. And it's normal and a million other people are doing it too. Because it's so and you know, like I I learned so much from that experience, and I think it's, it's certainly taught me things so that hopefully I can be a much more empathetic ache mother friend, whoever I need to be for someone else, you might go through that. But, you know, like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and all that. It's, I don't know, I just kind of remember how confusing it all was too, because I desperately wanted my son like, he was a baby I literally prayed for, like, you know, I wasn't interested in becoming a mother for the longest time. And all of a sudden, I desperately wanted and wanted to have this baby. And he didn't come for a while. And then when he did come, and then I had him and I was looking at his eyes, I was absolutely honestly, had never felt such love. But at the same time, I was petrified out of my mind. And I was really sad and anxious. I felt like oh, my God, I've, I'm going to break this thing, I'm going to do something wrong. And then the more I plummeted into that, anxiety and depression, I thought, if I say anything to anybody, they're gonna take my baby. Like, though, in the very, very early days before I told my doctor, I thought someone's going to take him away from me. And I think that's why I didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't want to be judged. I did talk to my parents about it. I talked to, you know, my son's grand grandmother about it as well, very early on. And they're the ones who actually kind of steered me over to the doctor to get some medication. Thank goodness, because I wasn't in a very good way. So and, you know, that, yeah, it takes a really long time to get your head around that and a really long time to, to say those words. But there's so important. And I think this is another reason why I think your podcast is so immensely valuable, because I think if someone had just said to me, 18 years ago, it will be okay. And you were going to do great. And you're going to do all these other things, too. I think they would have made a big difference. And you're not a bad mom, and you're an amazing Mum, you just need a little bit of support like everyone does. So yeah, thank goodness, I think I think things are changing. I think we are starting to talk about mental mental health in the mainstream. Much more than we did, but yeah, geez. First time mother. That's crippling. It's really crippling. But again, I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a real depth of knowledge and wisdom that comes from that experience two things. I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter at all. I had the postnatal depression with my son. And that was a very traumatic birth. And I think, yeah, maybe it was a PTSD thing. The I think the reason maybe I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter is because I said, I'm not doing that. Again, I'm having this as Aryan thanks. Because, you know, I sustained some injuries and things as well. And like that was that was quite an ordeal for me. And I think because I made that decision early that might have had a bit of an impact. But I remember with my son too, like, there were nights, but I just didn't sleep. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, that was a big thing. I just did not sleep and not not because he was a bad sleeper, but I literally couldn't sleep. And I remember one of the nurses who came to the house to check in on me and stuff. She said to me, oh, when you can't sleep, why don't you just use that time to do your painting? And I was just like, I can't because I literally was paralyzed. I felt sometimes like I was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a really hard space to be in and being creative. I couldn't read a book. Like I honestly couldn't read a book. So I think to create work when you're in that space is I think it's probably impossible. It's like you barely functioning. It's like having a shower was just like, wow, this big achievement. Yep, absolutely. When you say it now, it seems like so unreal. But well, the energy that that takes is incredible. Like, yeah, it's something that you just can't be understated how, how debilitating that is and how we really need to support people who are in that I was gonna say I've always been very opinionated. And having that experience on these kinds of issues has made me even more opinionated and more vocal. And, you know, sometimes I get quite angry. And I think because it's like, yeah, I know what that's like. But you know, that to go back to that thing about the breastfeeding thing? Yeah, I had an awesome experience, I had an awesome pregnancy. But when I hear about someone who's not having that same experience, and who's really struggling and are being judged and criticized for become equally passionate about that, because I'm like, This is not okay. Like, you know, we need to be supportive of each other, especially women, we need to be supportive of each other, whatever our experiences and choices are, whether that's around motherhood, birth career, or not, whatever that looks like, whatever our choices are, we really need to, you know, support that. I think that's the most powerful thing we can do. That's interesting, by the way, that judgment? Yeah, it's interesting. Why do we judge each other like that? Like, is it because Is it is it going back to Days of having to compete for the affections of men or something? So you put other women down? So it makes you look better? Like, is it? Why do we do? I'm not, I'm not really I don't really know. But I have, I have read that in a patriarchal culture, like a Western patriarchal culture, women are socialized to be in competition with each other. And we are kind of socialized to think that there's limitations on resources and, you know, limitations on access to men and all of these kinds of crazy things. Like if you want to, you know, I mean, it goes back into history to like, you look way back into history, like it was really important to be engaged by a particular time in your life. And if you weren't engaged and married, it was a serious problem, you know, and so people, like, even if you watch Jane Austen Oh, yeah, there's always threads, you know, women are in competition with each other, because they want to get the best pick of the of the man to have them, you know, to validate who they are, as women and people in society, it's crazy. I think we've been doing that for a very long time. And not just not just around men, I think, you know, just as we frame ourselves as women in relation to each other and our positions in society, we might not think that consciously, but I think that's embedded in our collective consciousness or something somewhere, it's like, you know, a baby cries. And we have that no one says, When your baby cries, you have to do the thing you are compelled, like, your, your urge is to go out and check your baby, pick it, pick the baby up and do particular things. Because that's what you're built to do. And I think there are, I mean, we're animals, I think these things are so deeply embedded in our primal brain and our collective consciousness and all those things that I'm not familiar, like, I don't have enough knowledge on that. But I think that's got a big part to do with it. But I think we, you know, we're acknowledging it and talking about it. So hopefully, that's a really big step in starting to dismantle some of that stuff. In all of the things that I've said, I should also, you know, definitely point out that in all the the competitiveness and things that we've been talking about, there are some amazing communities that you find that you do find for yourself, where you do get that support, and that friendship, which is absolute gold. And, you know, for me, I've found that with two, two women when my son went to kindy. So it took me took me a long time to find that, but, you know, I've maintained those friendships for the last 14 years now, and I always will, you know, it's incredible. What we've, you know, the friendship that we've given to each other this whole time, it's unconditional, you know, like, it's it. Yeah, it's really unconditional. So there is there is all of that richness and beauty there, too. But, yeah, I really like it, if that became the norm, like if that was the biggest story, and the other things that we that we've been discussing were, you know, rare incidents. We can talk about, you know, what in history that used to happen, and yeah, exactly. The you know, what you're saying now to about the competitiveness thing, I actually get such a thrill. I'm always so excited when I see anybody regardless of gender, or whether or not there a mum or dad. I get such a kick out of seeing people take their own initiative and do their own stuff and make their own things happen. And so, yeah, I'd like to tell you that You know that you're taking your own initiative to do this podcast. When I, when I first found out about it, I was so excited about it because I thought, wow, this is, this is something that you're doing. It's your own project because you care about it. And it's meaningful, and it's, you know, sustaining you, it's wonderful, but you're also giving such a gift to so many people. So well done. That is a fair, that's a very, very long way away from being competitive. That's, that's incredibly generous. And it's really wonderful to see. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Okay, it's exciting. It's wonderful. And and you know, what, it's actually a really brave thing to do to, to do a podcast and to share and, you know, to talk to people about all this kind of stuff. I'm at the moment, I'm taking some time out to experiment and explore in my practice, because this year already I've had working for exhibitions. And I've been teaching and studying as well. So I'm sort of on a little bit of a, like, I've got little bits of paid work happening. But in terms of exhibitions and stuff for the rest of the year, I don't have anything on the go. At the moment, I'm just taking this time to play with ideas and materials in my studio, and have a bit of a break to probably for exhibition. Yeah, oh my gosh, though, they were amazing. But because of COVID, it meant that some exhibitions were pushed forward. And all it was all just in the timing. So, you know, three exhibitions, were pretty much back to back. And to two exhibitions that I had opened in the one week, that was pretty intense. It was pretty intense. And so it was kind of like, Yes, I need time to recover. I also need time to just play. Like, I just need to play with my materials. And I've already I've already got ideas for my next series of work, but I just want to explore the potential of different techniques and materials at the moment. Um, to kick that off, we then just take a bit of a breather you know, Oh, tell you something really funny. I'll never forget this. When I was doing my PhD, I had to, I was doing full time study. And then I had to go down to part time and stuff. So my PhD took a little bit longer than I thought it would. And I remember my son said to me, one day, see that little girl walking around over there. And that was my daughter. He said, that's your PhD. Because I, when I was doing my PhD, six months in, I fell pregnant, I didn't realize that this was going to happen, fell pregnant, and I had my daughter and I'm still doing my PhD when she was like, three. You know, I kind of submitted not that long after but he was like, there's your PhD running around over there, mom, and I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was and it was quite startling, because you already knew like I was when he said that I was sort of like in the process of winding it all up. And you know, I was on the homestretch. But he was like, there she is. A PhD. That is gone. Yeah, it's like, making visible the the length that it has taken me to do this thing. Yeah. And all the effort that you've put into here, rather than the PhD. It's just yeah. That is hilarious. Thank you very much, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat and all the best with everything you've got coming up. Thank you so much, Alison, and congratulations on a fantastic podcast and wish you all the best for the future in this fantastic project that you have. It's been really fun talking to you today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Allison.

Hello artistic/creative mum!! Thank you so much for agreeing to be featured on the Art of Being a Mum blog. If you could please copy and paste the questions into a word doc or email, and then type your answers underneath, to send back to me. Artist Info Tell us about yourself, your art form, what you create, style, mediums you use. Let us get to know you as an artist. How did you get started, influences, why this artform, were you a creative child, what sparked your interest, any study you have done in this field, etc. Is this what you always wanted to do? Did you feel like you had to get a 'real' job and not pursue art? Family info Tell us about your family, children, ages, (names are optional) Share as much or as little detail as you wish. Day to day What does your art life look like today? Hours you are able to spend, challenges, pros and cons How do you juggle it all? How do your children fit into this? Any tips you can share or things you wish you had known? Did you need to find new ways to work so you could continue creating? Support Do you/did you have others in your art circle that have had this experience? Do you or have you had role models about how to juggle creating art and the demands of parenthood? Do you/did you have a support network around you? How did that/does that affect your work/art/creativity? Being a mum Did having a child/becoming a mother influence or inform your work? This one is not about the day to day logistics, more about the emotions that came up that might have manifested in your work "Mum guilt" Do you believe in the concept of "mum guilt"? a) when it comes to your art and b) general life. Do you feel differently about mum guilt depending on what you are doing? eg art or normal life? Yes/No/Why? Discuss - this is one of my favourite topics What triggers your mum guilt? (if you feel it) Identity How did the concept of your own identity change when you became a mum? Is it important to you to be "more than a mother"? eg - you are also your own person, artist, wife, daughter etc If so, how do you give yourself time and space to do/feel this this? What are your thoughts around this? Is it important to you to continue your art/own interests? Is it important to you that your children see that you do more than just the mothering role? Value of your art/creativity We're not talking about the monetary value of your work here, but the importance you place on your creating. If you don't bring money into your household with your creative work, does that diminish the value of it in your eyes? How do you feel about how society sees the value of (mother) artists contributions? Cultural Norms When you were growing up, what sort of a mother was your own mother expected to be? Did society expect her to focus only on her family and home roles? How did that effect you as a child and then growing up and how you approached your own parenting? I'm in Australia so Im really interested in how other cultures have expereienced this. Anything else An opportunity for you to share anything additional t hat is important to you, or to promote yourself, your business, etc Future What projects are you working on or have coming up? Shows, gigs, etc Where can people find you online? Social etc Other notes Although not a topic I ask guests directly about, the subject of mental health comes up more often than not. If you feel comfortable sharing your experience please do so. PLEASE SEND ME - promo photos that I can share. This can be of you, an example of your work, your family/children, anything that you would like to represent you. Any number from 1-5 is great, and at least one that shows your face is great. links to your website/instgram etc or any other links you wish to share a list of the materials/ equipment you use in your practice. I like to compile a list and provide links for listens to purchase or research further if they wish. an artistic bio, any special awards or upcoming events you would like mentioned in your show notes. SOCIAL MEDIA Your blog will go live on a Friday. Leading up to this I will post the following on my instagram and facebook accounts: Wednesday - Introduction using supplied photo Thursday - Quote tile Friday - Out Now image tile Sunday - Reel - supplied photos Tuesday - Quote tile for examples of these check out my instag ram I will tag you in each, feel free to share or repost on your socials, it certainly helps to spread the word. You will also have a dedicated landing page for your blog, which is a great place to direct people to, if you would like this link for your website or socials please let me know, or you can extrapolate it here: eg https://www.alisonnewman.net/written-interview-articles-1/ firstname-lastname From time to time I post previous guests’ quotes so you may notice yourself pop up again months down the track. I enjoy taking relevant quotes and sharing them around a theme on my socials. If you have any queries or questions please let me know, Alison x

More reviews Alison's kind and gentle nature made it easy to share these sometimes difficult conversations. Leah Franklin I've been listening to your podcasts and I love your interview style. You're natural, warm and have a good sense of humour! Rebeccza McMartin Congratulations on creating such a brilliant resource for creative parents!! What an honour to be a small part of it. Love what you’re building here. Georgia Fields You know, we have International Women's Day where you know, everyone posts on their social media, how good it is to support women. But you're an example of someone actually actively doing that. And I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work you're doing. Fleur Harris Powerful conversation with a healthy dose of fun. I do enjoy your style! The best! Bianca Morra Alison is a truly compassionate host who genuinely wants to have conversations that will have a positive impact on moms everywhere. She asks thought provoking and powerful questions to explore the good, bad and the ugly of motherhood, and to normalize the issues that challenge us. And she's not afraid to say that she doesn't have it all figured out, which I just LOVE! Lisa Sugarman I am so thankful for the work The Art of Being a Mum is doing for the art and parenting community. Mercedes Rodgers What you do is wonderful. I think what you're doing is so significant. And it's so important. And I'm so happy to be here and to talk to you. Shweta Bist It was such a pleasure talking with you and I would love to again anytime. You're a gem! Charlotte Condie What an absolute honour to speak with Alison, Alison has such a beautiful way of interviewing and is a beautiful soul. Carmen Bliss I have enjoyed your podcast so much. I’ve realized that unlike many other interviewers you don’t take over the interviews and make it all about yourself... you allow your guest to tell their stories. Louise Tye It was a pleasure chatting with you, you are so easy to talk to. Dr Melanie Cooper Such an amazing experience to be a part of! Thank you for allowing me to talk so openly, without judgement. It is so important to continue our creative journeys. Pariya Ziakas Thanks Alison you made that so comfortable. You are excellent at what you do. - Bianca Richardson Thank you for having me on your brilliant show. Katherine Collette I truly had a great time talking to you. You are very easy to talk to !! Daneille Kloberdanz I truly had a great time talking to you. You are very easy to talk to !! Daneille Kloberdanz

Wolf new album EP by Alison Newman Alison Newman, hailing from Mount Gambier, South Australia, is a singer and songwriter creating deeply personal music. Her journey in music has been a dynamic one, marked by a diverse range of opportunities, from small vocal ensembles to large choirs and duos, all of which have contributed to her growth and the evolution of her unique musicality. Alison's musical journey has been punctuated by significant milestones. In 2019, 2020, and 2021, she was nominated for the South Australian Music Awards Folk Artist Peoples Choice Award. She clinched the South Australian State Final of Listen Up Music's 'The Songwriting Prize' in 2021 with her original song 'Pieces of My Pain', which was performed live in Sydney in January 2022 for the national prize. Alison's musical journey began in childhood when she started singing and continued to do so throughout her life. She attributes her eclectic music taste to exposure to various music genres from her family. Her earliest formal singing lessons focused on correct diaphragmatic breathing techniques, and she often performed for her family with her sister Emma during her childhood. Noteworthy is her debut album, "Heart Songs," which was released in late July 2019. Following that, she has released three standalone singles; "Sunshine Sundays" in November 2019, "It's Not Christmas Without You" in December 2019, and "For the Rest of My Life" on Valentine's Day 2020. During the COVID-19 lockdown of 2020, Alison shared her love of creating covers in her project "Circa Aurora," where she covered well-known songs in her unique style. Looking ahead, Alison is currently immersed in creating her next album, an EP titled 'Wolf '. This project, set to be released in June 2024, delves into her personal experience with postnatal depression, promising a deeply introspective and emotive musical journey. “The Wolf plays the role of the PND, and I am akin to Little Red Riding Hood.” Three tracks from "Wolf" have been critically acclaimed; Things Are About To Get Dark won the Australian Songwriters Association. 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category. Pieces of My Pain won the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize and Free Me was featured in the Top 100 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize 2024. Alison is also a podcaster, producing The Art of Being A Mum, a weekly podcast where Alison enjoys honest and lively chats with artists + creators about the joys + issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum + continue to create. Themes like the mental juggle, identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", cultural norms, how they give themselves time to create within the role of mothering + the value that society gives the artistic mother. You can find out more here Things Are About To Get Dark Re told from the moment I experience my first PND symptoms, it is a forboding moment of realisation, it is going to happen all over again. This track won the Australian Songwriters Association 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category "What a song! It stops you in your tracks!" Nigel Loveday Radio Eastern Melbourne THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET DARK 00:00 / 03:33 Free Me My cry, in vain, to the Wolf to let me go, to free me, to free my soul and leave me. And I am left to wonder just how did this happen again, and realising that no one is in full control of themselves. FREE ME 00:00 / 03:08 Pieces of My Pain I am feeling cautiously ready to get my life back together, I am starting to feel well and I am literally picking up the pieces and beginning the steps recovering my life. Winner of the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize PIECES OF MY PAIN 00:00 / 03:30 Ready for Up I am ready to celebrate the coming out of the fog, I am feeling more like myself, adjusting to life as a new mum. "This music has helped people." Bronte Ellard - 5gtrFm READY FOR UP 00:00 / 02:58 Feel into You The final track, a song to celebrate the people that helped me through Top 100 in the 2024 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize FEEL INTO YOU 00:00 / 04:01 "I feel like Alison is one of those artists that gives pieces of herself in each song that she releases." RAG MAG radio interviews 18 June ABC Sth East 00:00 / 30:15 30 June 5gtr FM 00:00 / 15:08 1 July 88.3 Southern FM 00:00 / 10:32 9 July Bayside FM 00:00 / 25:46 10 September 5gtr FM 00:00 / 12:13 8 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:52 29 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:10 media The Border Watch - 28/6/24 Limestone Coast Community News - 31/7/24 The Border Watch - 2/8/24 The Alternative Gig Guide - 14/8/24 Media Net - 30/8/24 RAG MAG - 27/10/24 podcasts The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 395 - 23/6/24 The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 405 - 8/11/24 Photos by Renae Lowe Photography Cover designs by Alison

Wedding Reviews Alison, it was a honour and privilege to have you sing on our special day. I couldn't have imagined anyone else to share our day with us. Alison is amazing and you definitely won't be disappointed. -Jess, happy Bride Alison sang at our wedding and was it absolutely beautiful. She is very professional, organised and went above and beyond for our special day. We try and catch her when she is singing around town as it always guarantees to be a great day - Tennille, happy Bride I first heard Alison sing on the night my now husband proposed to me. She was singing for a function at the Lakes Resort Restaurant, Mt Gambier. My husband and I loved the tunes and the atmosphere and I knew this was what I wanted my guest to experience on my own wedding day. Alison has such a marvellous voice I can still hear her singing “my song” A thousand years by Christina Perri to this day. My guests were blown away with her beautiful voice and I commend her for creating a magical ceremony.I would whole heartedly recommend Alison for any function or wedding as she is the “finishing touch.” Claire & James Buckley Alison recently sang at our wedding and it was absolutely beautiful to listen to her. She is incredibly talented and so friendly and easy going. Thank you again Alison for being part of our special day - Siobhan, happy Bride Alison is a professional, fun and flexible performer, with significant experience in helping couples set the soundtrack to their special day. I've loved working with Alison and highly recommend her calm and adaptable approach to delivering a professional and entertaining service at any venue. Tim Gerritsen—Pianist/Organist Alison performed at our wedding in 2009. The addition of live music meant that our songs were arranged by Alison in styles that we loved. Alison's professionalism saw this part of the day run smoothly, and we didn't need to worry about any part of this, including the volume or the quality of the sound. We would highly recommend Alison's singing to add a personalised and special touch to your wedding day, or any event. Emma and John Anderson

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8 Britt Australian designer 8 Article # 18 August 2023 I started out lettering by accident. I was a very sporty child and genuinely believed I had not a creative bone in my body – to the point that I often got other classmates to help in art/sewing/woodwork classes because I despised what I produced. I was such a perfectionist. But I was guilty of often scribbling over my class books and diaries much to the teacher’s dismay, but if there was a sharpie around, I couldn’t help myself! In 2015 while going through a messy break up I decided to start scribbling quotes on paper, which lead to my first commissioned piece after I shared my work on social media. I was working in marketing at the time and was also responsible for a lot of the graphic design which became a big passion and the two just intertwined perfectly. This eventually led to designing logos, which lead to me now offering full blown brand identity packages. I am a sole trader working from home, which gives me the ultimate flexibility which is what I have been chasing for a long time. I never knew that scribbling with sharpies could lead me to where I am today – and I am glad I had plenty of ‘real jobs’ while I figured it out as I learnt so much from so many amazing people along the way. My mediums range and have done over the past 8 years – but when lettering I consistently use: Paint and ink markers Card or Canvas With graphic design, I rely heavily on: Illustrator Photoshop InDesign Canva I have a 2.5 year old son, Alba and an almost 1 year old daughter, Gia. After a hectic couple of years, I am really starting to find a little more rhythm and balance in work and parent life. Gia has just started two days childcare recently which has helped. Pre that, it was a lot harder to achieve much and meant I was often trying to squeeze things in at night or on the weekend when my husband was around. I genuinely didn’t mind as it was a high priority, I could keep her home as long as I could. When I was pregnant with Gia I would often wake around 2/3am and struggled to fall back to sleep so used to get up and do some work then. I’ve also done my fair share of late nights and weekends. What I do really doesn’t feel like work, so if I spent my entire weekend working, I was OK with that. However, it did eat into family time, so I would often feel guilty that the 4 of us weren’t getting chinks of time together. But then, you end up feel guilty about sending them to childcare to be able to work/create. There is no winning, I swear! Now I have 2-3 days childcare for both Alba and Gia, I have found the balance to be really good for our family. It’s much more clear cut – I work when they’re in care and when they’re home, I don’t. I had a minimum age in mind I wanted them to go to childcare which was my reasoning for holding off – and overall, I am glad I had them home with me for the period/s I did. Now I feel a lot less pressure to achieve anything while they’re home. But one challenge I still face when they are home is when I randomly come up with a new idea and I am not able to immediately execute/get the idea out. So many ideas have been lost because of this – but that’s ok, maybe they really weren’t worth executing in the first place. In regards to support – my husband is the most wonderful support, he is a very hands-on Dad and encourages me to have time away to be creative which means I am able to spend more time being creative if I choose. He is no doubt my biggest support physically and emotionally, and with him by my side I feel like I can honestly achieve anything. "I absolutely want to be more than a mother – not only for myself, my relationship with my husband but to also show my children, specifically my daughter – that you can be a loving mother that is present but also have your own interests and goals outside of raising your children. " Becoming a mother has absolutely influenced my work. I now find myself sharing quotes relating specifically to motherhood with its ups and downs. They resonate for me and often many followers who are in the same place. Sometimes I feel like it may be a detriment though, I do need to look at the bigger picture as a good chunk of my target audience is pre or post the baby days. And Mum guilt? Well, it exists whether you work full-time, part-time or not at all. Society gives us so many mixed messages. Gone are the days women stay home, and that was that. We are a generation that are choosing to live our lives how we please, instead of to please. But the comparison game is very real. We’re surrounded by all kinds of differences - there are mums choosing to work to fulfil their own needs and passions, and there are mums working because they don’t have a choice. Some mums are choosing to stay home, while others are wishing they could afford to the do the same. But it’s important to remember - just because someone is a stay-at-home mum, doesn’t mean that they are present in their role and their children are any better off. And just because someone works full-time, doesn’t mean she wants to be away from her children. I personally feel more mum guilt when I am working/creating as opposed to maybe catching up with friends – and I am not entirely sure why that is. What triggers my mum guilt specifically is usually people giving unsolicited advice. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The way our family is choosing to live our lives is about finding the right balance that works for us an entire family unit. This is why we shouldn’t judge anyone on what they choose to do. We’re all living our own lives, with our own goals and dreams, with kids that have very different needs – there is not a one size fits all approach. Less judgement, more support I say. I have a huge desire to be more than a mother – not only for myself and my relationship with my husband but to also show my children, specifically my daughter – that you can be a loving mother that is present but also have your own interests and goals outside of raising your children. But if I am honest, apart from my ‘work’, there isn’t a lot I do to try and encourage this. I know I need to get better and plan to in the coming months – starting with finally getting back to the gym (I joined today!) and also trying to arrange some kid-free catch ups with friends. It’s imperative I continue to be creative and have my own interests for numerous reasons. When you’re passionate about something, it can be very hard to just switch it off. I was raised to believe hard work and loyalty to your workplace comes first – even before your own needs. That didn’t resonate with me, and I found myself in some dark places because of it –stuck in jobs I hated or working for people I loathed. I wanted to find something I enjoyed doing, that got me excited to get out of bed and go towork for the day. Otherwise, life can become very mundane. It took me a long time to be able to follow my passion and I want my children to be able to see that work doesn’t just have to be something you do because you have to. We spend a huge portion of our lives working – I want to teach them to take the time to try many things and work out what they really love. "We’re all living our own lives, with our own goals and dreams, with kids that have different needs – there is not a one size fits all approach. Less judgement, more support I say." Another reason I have wanted to continue to work is to keep my finger on the pulse. I don’t want to fall behind in a world that’s ever evolving with technology and lose confidence to not return to the workforce because I feel out of my depth. It;s hard not to get caught up in the monetary value at times, but I for sure know what as long as I am creating – whether it be for money or joy – it’s extremely valuable to my wellbeing. But I admit I feel bad sometimes when I know I am creating for the ‘love’ and my husband has the kids, because I feel like if I am away from them then it should be to contribute financially – which even I know should not be the case! In terms of my own mother, I’ve been brought to know she was expected to be a stay-at-home mum, and it would’ve been hard for her to work even (if she wanted to) as my dad did travel a lot for work and could be away for a week or two at a time. But, it really would have benefited her to have her own financial freedom and to step away from being a mother. I often remind myself this in times of guilt. Unfortunately, society was a lot less forgiving 30 years ago. I’ll admit my childhood experience has led me to struggle in this department since becoming a mother – because I felt external expectation to also stay at home. Instead, I have chosen to follow my gut and navigate working with children home and in regular care. Admittedly, I struggled putting both into childcare for numerous reasons, but when I look at the bigger picture and the positives of me working/creating – there is no question it’s the right thing to do. I have a strong urge to feel like I am both contributing to our household financially, and also because my work also gives me so many ‘good feels’ - it makes me a better mother and gives my children a different outlook to what I had. Win, win if you ask me. Contact Britt www.wordshewrote.com.au or Instagram @wordshewrote I have a couple of branding spots open for the rest of the year and some regular client work available BACK

Simone Wise South Australian visual artist S2 Ep55 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Simone Wise, a visual artist from Adelaide and mother of 2. Simone grew up surrounded by creativity, with 2 creative sisters and a creative mum. They went to the gallery a lot, and she was never really bored as she was always making craft. She studied Art History and considered that as a career path. It wasn't until her early to mid 30s that she took the plunge and went to art school. She was determined to practice and push through in the face of challenges. Simone is heavily influenced by Dutch still life of the 17th century and the works of Turner , and interested in iconography and symbolism. She describes her artistic style as tonal realism style, She is currently studying a Fine Art Course at Adelaide Central School of Art. Today we chat about why we gather certain objects, role modelling perseverance to her son through her art and how Simone's art helped her through the loss of her first son. **This episode contains discussion around stillbirth, grief and mental health*** The Robot painting Follow Simone on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Me today, it really does mean a lot. My guest this week is Simone wise. Simone is a visual artist from Adelaide in Australia, and is a mum of two. So mine grew up surrounded by creativity with two creative sisters and a creative mum. They went to the gallery a lot, and Simone was never really bored, as she was always making craft. She studied art history and considered that as a career path. It wasn't until her mid 30s That she took the plunge and went to art school. She was determined to practice and push through in the face of challenges. Simone is heavily influenced by Dutch still life of the 17th century and the works of Turner, and she's very interested in iconography and symbolism. She describes her artistic style as tonal realism. She is currently studying your fine art course at Adelaide Central School of Art. This episode contains discussion around stillbirth, grief and mental health. Today we chat about why we gather certain objects role modeling perseverance to her son through her heart, and how Simone's art helped her through the loss of her first son. Music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM Joe, Australian New Age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome to the podcast Simone. It's really lovely to meet you and have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Allison. I'm really excited to chat about all things creative and being a mom in the world today. It's a pleasure. So we're about to you, based you in Adelaide. Australia. Yep. Yeah, based in Adelaide. I'm born here lived in Queensland for a little bit but mostly been here. All my life. So yeah, yeah. Have you ever been down to make Gambia where I am? I have. Yes. And I've actually my little boy has been asking me to go to Mount Gambia for a while because he's got friends who have been so yeah, but no, I did love it down there. It's Yeah, lovely. Yeah. Don't come in winter. Just stay away. Okay, so yeah, yeah. Wait, did the sun comes back to Yeah. So your visual artists can you share what sort of style your art is? And yeah, okay. Well, I'm I'm two years into a three year Fine Art course at Adelaide Central School of Art. And I specifically chose that school because it has really strong grounding in I guess you'd say the traditional arts foundations. Not everyone who graduates from their works in you know, old fashioned sort of art, but it has a really good foundation in a drawing and painting. And so I guess you'd say I, my paintings have been described as photorealistic. But I don't really like that description to be honest. Because while there's a skill in photo realism, there's not much in terms of interpretation. So I like to think I painting like more of a tonal realist style. And I'm really informed by still life paintings from Dutch 17th century like that real tradition of, you know, like a black background with things like grapes and setups of grapes and lemons and Silver Goblets and things like that. I love the iconography and symbolism and drama, all of all of that. And so I'm very much drawn to really detailed paintings and really detailed drawings. Yes. So, do you work in? I'm gonna ask this question. Now. It's probably a question for later but I was looking on your Instagram, as I do with all my guests. I like to have a bit of a stalk before I do But you you were you painted in? It was oils, but it was on copper. Can you explain what the relevance of that is because I don't know anything about anything. I've done one painting on copper. And it was a bit of an experiment. And I was thrilled that it got chosen to be part of an Art Prize, because I wasn't sure how it would work out. But yeah, traditionally, it's something that's been done quite a lot. But it's been in centuries past that it's been painted, like the board hasn't been able to go through, you get a piece of copper and like etching copper, and you put some just sew something to create the ground and then you paint on it like any other surface, you can paint on. Lots of things. So yeah, I didn't, I don't think I'll get back to it because I found it a little too slippery. But I did love the warmth and depth that comes from the middle, underneath. So yeah, that's cool. Yeah, like I said, I don't know anything I've got, since I've been chatting to people. Through the podcast, I've discovered that I can actually do art, like I thought it had to be, like realism sort of stuff. Like it had to look like what it looks like. And because I couldn't do that, I was like, I can't do this. And then all of a sudden, I realized there's all these things you can do. Thing is amazing chord like people. I'm not trying to do a humble brag or anything. But people often say to me, like, Oh, you're so talented. And I don't actually think I'm that talented. I think I just have perseverance and sort of a bit obsessive sometimes. I think the school that I went to teaches you like really, like we learned the most boring painting triangles in black and white ages. And you know, you can't help but develop some skill. And if you're obsessed enough with something to stay up too early in the morning to get better at it, then you will so yeah, that's it, it really is a practice isn't it? It's not like you just wake up one day and you can all of a sudden do something, you actually have to learn the skills and and that's something else I didn't understand either. I just thought because my background singing I just thought you can sing or you can't sing like he can, you can do it or you can't and that's how I felt about drawing and painting until very recently. So I'm glad I've experienced it even when, like I'm at a point where I'm happy with my skill level. But there's still heaps more that I can learn about different techniques and different ways I can push myself conceptually so yeah, I can never ending process so when did you first get interested in art and creativity. I've always been interested in art and creativity. My mom's very creative. I'm one of three girls and we all are creative in our own ways I grew up going to the gallery a lot really loving art never really been bored because we were always making something out of papers, sticky tape. I guess I was always craft II I still entered still am I still do lots of crochet and sewing and things. But I never really trusted myself as an artist because like you said, like you were saying before you cannot you can't there are always people in school who were better drawers than me. I was interested in it. But I wasn't ever, like, didn't have that natural aptitude to be like amazing. So I I studied art history interested in getting into working in art. And I love to I love art history, but it didn't quite feel right enough for me to pursue that as a career too much. And it wasn't really until about my early to mid 30s that I took the plunge and went to art school and thought you know, what the hell. You know, if I if I want to do something, I'll usually do it properly. And so going to art school was my way of like, taking the plunge and seeing whether I could do it or not. So, yeah, yeah. And I've been through to discover that. You know, I, I can't it's just a matter of perseverance. So I was terrible, terrible at first and always one of the slowest in the class. So yeah, that didn't put you off. You're determined to do it. Yeah, there was a sort of bloody mindedness about me that I was just I wasn't gonna let it let it beat me. Good Anya, that's a great energy to hear. When you're talking about your art history, background, is that weird that sort of that love and appreciation of the symbolism sort of comes from? I think so. Yeah, I think the thing about my art history studies has taught me is that art is such a reflection of the world that you live in. And so, you know, you might look at a 17th century Dutch painting of a goblet and some grapes and think, oh, that's boring. I've seen that 100 times before, but it's actually of its time it had symbolism about, you know, life and death and wealth and prosperity and, you know, eternal life or, you know, greed or yeah, there's so much symbolism so much meaning to things. And I find it really fascinating to think about the context in which it was created. Yeah, I find that really fascinating, too. I had an interview with Dr. Melanie Cooper on one of my season ones, I love her. And I just opened my eyes to this whole world. And I was so fascinated by it, because I'm, I'm one of those people that I can't just watch a movie. And just, like, watch the movie, I have to see all the little hidden messages and in the, you know, the light and shade or wherever, where the actors is placed, and all this stuff, and it drives my sister nuts. Like, I can't just watch something and just shut up and watch it. So I found that really fascinating. And ever since then, I've sort of had this newfound appreciation for pieces of art, because they can't just be viewed on their own. Like, you can't just take them they have to be viewed within a context. She that's just reminded me of something that's completely random. Have you watched that Netflix show? It's called I think it's called inventing Anna. It's just come out. It's about that, that haven't I've seen teen girl. Yeah, she it's like this. She's a con woman. And she's really into art. And there's this one scene where they're in this art gallery, and I can't remember what the who the artist was. But she basically said, someone said, Oh, that's a really crap painting or whatever it was, it was a it was a photo of this art a lady with like a, I don't know, she had, you know how they used to put like handkerchiefs over their heads to stop that when they're in the cars or something. The hair going into it. Sorry, this is really random. It just reminded me. And so the person that was looking at it was all they were seeing was this lady with a thing overhead and just got in what's why is that amazing? And, and Anna in a, you know, calmness come out with this big story about how that was the first time a woman had stepped in front of the camera. And like a photographer, had made herself the subject and because of the era that it was in, and it was like a message about patriarchy and women's rights. And it was like, that just reminded me Sorry. No, no, no thing I love about art is that there's, it can just be a pretty picture or something that you'd like to look up. But there can also be so much to it. And I sort of get discouraged when people say sort of assume like art has to be just about skill. And I guess for me, I do have obvious skill in that I can paint. You know, if I would have been an apple, it would look like an apple when people would recognize it. And so they therefore think that my art is good art, whereas not necessarily, you know, and it's there's a sort of, I guess it might be a bit of a tall poppy thing, like people not wanting to push themselves or be confused by something challenged. And I think that that's the Australian way, isn't it? Like we've always got to we've got to cut down our tall poppies because they make everyone else feel in insignificant or incompetent. Or, you know, we've always got to try and level the playing field in some way, don't we? Yeah, it's horrifying that there is that tendency to feel. Yeah, I feel like you to feel discomfort about not knowing something instead of curiosity. Yeah, that's sorry. That is that's a really well put that's that's really well said. Yeah, so you paste that page on copper that we talked about before, was actually it was off the handle of cemetery. It's called handle of cemetery summer. And it was selected by the handoff Academy in the Adelaide Hills landscape arts prize. And that's pretty special. Yeah, I was thrilled, especially as I was saying before, it's the first time I painted on copper, and I saw that painting is a bit of an experiment. And I was also trying to push myself in that painting to leave things more unfinished. There's a tendency me to be a perfectionist and just paint everything to a fine detail. And that was quite inspired by an artist. Turner, and he has these beautiful paintings of weather and landscape that are just sort of half finished. They're just so coarse in some areas. And so I was just really trying to get get to that. Yeah, it's It actually reminds me of paintings that my Nana, not my Nana, sorry, my grandma had on her wall. She lived in clango, which is a little place near Mount Gambia. And just the color of the sky like that really burnt orange. I don't know I just when I looked at this, it just there's a I don't know there's a famous painting that used to be in her lounge. And it just came into my head. I thought gosh, Is that? I'm not saying it's the same, it's nowhere near the same. But that that color, that color just got me and I had that, you know that nostalgic Pang that you get. Then you go. Oh, yeah, yeah. So can you share with the listeners about the story about that? How that painting came to be? Yeah, well, I I specifically painted that painting and took the photograph that I painted that painting from with the Adelaide Hills landscape prize in mind. So that's why I was so stoked I got it. I guess like a lot of people I struggle with procrastination and fitting things in. So I will often choose an Art Prize and paint something for it. And whether or not I get it in is not the ultimate outcome. It's just to have something to do and to have a deadline. So and I don't do landscapes and but I thought I was quite interested to try. So I went for a drive up to hand off with my son one day and we had a lovely walk around. And I'm quite interested in cemeteries so may sound morbid taking your he was then four, I believe. Yeah. Taking a four year old to the cemetery. But um, yeah, I just love those. Love the area. And it's such a traditional old cemetery with so many old German names there. Yeah, yeah. Definite face for the eyes and lots of areas to paints. Yeah. Yeah, no, I can appreciate that interest in cemetery skill. I think it's, it's such a can obviously, it's a connection to the past. And often, like, we've got two cemeteries here, we've got like the new the newer one, and then we've got this really, really old one. And it's so nice to walk around and see. Like that. I don't know, it's just, it feels weird that you will somewhere with someone that that has was existed so many, like maybe 100 years before you, and you're at the same place at the same time with this person. Like it feels really unlikely. And there's one in the old kalangan Do you see reentry? In one of them? It doesn't even say this lady's name. It just says mother. And couldn't she even got a name on it? Like that one just really sticks in my mind. And I find that interesting to to see how people are remembered by other people the words they used to describe them and all that sort of stuff. I find that really fascinating. Yeah, for sure. Day. Now, you said there that you're not you don't usually do the landscapes? No. So what's your sort of? I mean, again, I've stalked you on Instagram. No, there was a picture that sorry. Yeah, a photo that you posted of painting that you've done of your son's robot that he made? Oh, yes. Which is always a beautiful picture. Like, it's just, I look at it. And I think like you could put your hand in and pick it up. Like it's just so it's really stick but without being, like I said before, like it's not an exact copy. It's got like, I don't know, it feels like it's looked through through a filter or a lens or something like an old. I don't know, rambling again. But I really liked that. So yeah, so share with us, what's the sort of things that you usually paint? What are you sort of influenced by mostly? Yeah, I usually paint objects. I don't generally tend to paint, paint or draw people and just not that I have anything against people who do or paintings that are of people are portraits, but I'm more interested in objects and what our objects say about us. So it's almost like I believe the objects that we find special to us are more of a portrait in some ways. And so that painting, it's lovely to hear that you love it, because that was very dear to me. It sold which was very flattering as well. It's amazing to think that someone wanted to pay money for that. So yeah, the I guess the story behind that one is my mum was looking after my son while I was at work, and my son is very, very into making and creating things too. And he just got it in his head that he had to make me a robot and he and my mom made it robot and he was just so his dear little face when he gave it to me. He was just so thrilled. And yeah, and I was yeah, it was just one of those lovely moments of being a mom where you're like your kids made you something really gorgeous and it's this really sweet and there was just a way to sort of capture that and I entered it into a Portrait Prize because um I see it as a portrait. Even though it's not a traditional portrait, it's almost like a double portrait because it's sort of triple portrait even because it's like, the title is me as a smart and pretty robot, which my son made a robot version of me being smart and pretty, which is what you'd want to be functioning well as well. And so he made it, and then I painted it. And so yeah, it was like a double, you know, his creativity, my creativity and our relationship. And so there are a lot of objects that have a real lot of meaning and tell a lot of story and I love I really like the ambiguity of painting something that might be a bit confusing, like, why would you paint? You know, I spent hours and hours and hours painting this particular thing and plunking it in the middle of something and making it look like this amazing, grand thing like they did with the, you know, Dutch still lives of these amazing goblets. You know, you can understand why paint something that was like beautiful fruit and silverware. But why would you paint some sort of cardboard thing? I quite liked the ambiguity of that. So yeah, that raises a real question. I think of like, what is valuable? And what, you know, just because something doesn't have a price tag. It's important to someone it has that value that that person places on it. Yeah, yeah, the sort of thing that you might grab, if they were a fire would not necessarily be the most money stuff at the most monetary things that are a link to another relationship. Yeah. Two things I want to ask you about this conversation. What did you send? Think about the fact that you then painted a picture of the robot? What was his impression of that? It's funny. He's very blase. Most kids who grew up their parents, whatever their parents is, like, oh, yeah, you know, you know, I asked him about the progress as I went on. I was like, What do you think about that color background? He's like, Yeah, it's good. Yeah. He was. Yeah, he was, I think it was he was quietly chuffed, but not amazingly. So just like yet. He was, he was annoyed when it got into the exhibition. And I haven't told him that it's sold yet he's forgotten about it. He sort of was a bit annoyed that it got in like, as if I hadn't consulted him. He's, I guess it was his intellectual property. So that's funny. Yeah. It's interesting, you say about objects that people might collect or be given, or you know, what they place their value on, I suppose. And you were saying how that can sometimes tell you more about someone than, you know, a portrait. Or maybe that's what I was thinking. Maybe they weren't your words, but I was thinking like, you can find out so much more about someone by looking at the things that they hold dearest. It's so interesting, because there's a friend of mine who is a watercolor artist, and Julia, Rita, hello, shout out to you. She collects when she goes on a walk, she collects pieces of nature. So it might be leaves, or gum nuts, or just anything that she finds. And she always posts on Instagram of the things that she's found. And I always find it so fascinating, because I'm like that with feathers, feathers. I always click those. And if there's an interesting leave, it's got to be very interesting. Yeah. And it's just like, why do we do this? Like, what are we, you know, this connection that we want to have to things surrounded by so many things and so many objects, which are the ones that stand out and become special? I just, I just find it really interesting. Yeah, so I was gonna ask you about your son. So he's, he's grown up. Like you said, he's a bit sort of blase, but the whole thing, because he's seen the paint he's grown up in, in the family of a painter and artist. Can you tell us a little bit more about him? Yeah, his name is Emmanuel. He's five started school this year. He's, he's lovely. He's amazing. He's He's very funny. Very energetic and hyper. He teaches me a lot about the world actually, he sort of I've often said he, he approaches everyone as if they're going to be fit be his friend. And mostly they are and I think that's a such a lovely way whereas I'm a lot more introverted and shy than him and it's just lovely to see him approach people with faith and excitement and enthusiasm and response. So yeah, that's, that's really interesting way you've described it, because it sounds like you're describing my child, but I haven't quite put the words together he seeks and he's the same he just now that you've said it in those words, it makes perfect sense. It's like he thinks everybody in the world is pretty ain't your friend like a kind person? And? Yeah, sort of thing. There's the time gonna come when you realize that's not really true. But for now it's lovely. Yes. There is that. Yeah. Yeah. Being five, he's very hyperactive and energetic. And yeah, it's an interesting age, he's learning to read and all that sort of things. So I think I'm getting to the point where I can sometimes have an hour off, or something to myself, but it's still very much that full on, you know, like food and drink. And this and that the whole time. Very demanding little things. Yeah. It's funny, because like, they grow up, and they're capable of more stuff. But it's like, the more capable they get. It's almost like the more they want you to do for them. Like, hi, like, right? They sort of revert and they want. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I want you to still be there every second. Yeah, exactly. You, you're actually a mother of two. Which I appreciate that. You feel comfortable talking about your son. Can you share with us about Louis? Yeah, so Emanuel has an older brother, Louis, who was born eight years ago. He died as a baby, he was. He was I was 39 weeks pregnant, about to set for an induction and I went to the doctors for the appointment ahead of that. And they were doing the ultrasound and couldn't find a heartbeat. And I was just really, like, what I felt the doctor was like, well, the baby's there. And it just hadn't occurred to me that anything would happen and, and so close to the birth. Yeah, so Louis was stillborn. Yeah, at 39 weeks. So that was, it was horrible, because not that it would necessarily be easier if you knew it was going to happen. But the idea that you could lose a child at that point, was just like, yeah, had not even occurred to me. And it just, I just couldn't quite comprehend it. So and when he was born, he was a perfectly formed, baby, like, he was my child, and he was beautiful. And he but he just wasn't alive. And it was just baffling. Like how it could happen. And yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting, you say that, I think there's so much emphasis placed on you know, the first three months, you know, those first 12 weeks, get through the first 12 weeks, and then no one ever talks about anything happening later on. And I think you're right, you just you just flow through and you just expected that that's what's going to happen. And so when it doesn't, it's just incredibly shocking and confusing. And yeah, yeah, it's almost like you breathe a sigh of relief after those first three months. And you can tell people and yeah, so yeah, it was it was horrible. And I think the fact that he was stillborn I didn't even get to see him breathe. I've always mourned. Well, I've known the whole thing, but I've definitely mourned. Not being able to tell him that I love him and see his eyes open. And so yeah, yeah, it's been um, you know? Yeah, it was was definitely the worst thing that happened. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry to mine. That's yeah. And thank you for sharing it too. I think, like a lot of things in, in this world. There's so much taboo stuff that we never talk about. Yeah. And I feel like the more conversations we have about that stuff, the more we're actually helping each other. He's you know, on this on this podcast before we've talked about miscarriages, stillbirths, we've talked about mental health issues, death of a parent grateful, that sort of stuff. And I think it's important not only for the people that are sharing it, to have a platform to be able to share it if they want. But people who might have experienced something like that, and haven't had anyone around them talk about it. You know, this might be the first time someone's heard someone else say that and think, oh, wow, I am allowed to talk about that or you know, and encourages people to reach out to other people and and get conversation started. Yeah, and you're very alone. I mean, I guess no one can ever be inside your head with you. But it is a particular type of grief because, you know, you might meet someone new, you might be in the shops and someone could just assume that you're fine. You know, it's one of those. I'm sure everyone going through grief feels like you know, you should have this big red splash on your face or something. Like, to show that things aren't fine and normal and it's with being a mum, and having had a child but not having the child to raise. It complicates things so much like, you know, you'll meet someone, you know, go to the hairdresser, and they'll say, Have you got any kids? And in the early days, I would say yes, because I, it pains me to say no, because it was a definite was like a denial of his existence. And then people would that would raise people be uncomfortable and not know what to say and be awkward. And these days, I'll I'll choose whether I say or not. And most times, I'll actually just say, I've got the one kid because I just don't feel the need to get into conversation with acquaintances. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my friends and family obviously all know about it. But I feel more comfortable not talking about Louis as much as I used to. I think in the early days, it was important for me to I was always angry it No, it wasn't almost, I was very angry. I felt angry that he wasn't there. I felt angry that people didn't know about him. And I Yeah, yeah. It's like, you wanted to tell them because it was, I guess, validating the fact that he actually did exist he, you know, yeah, that would feel like you weren't doing the right thing by him, I guess to say, you know, to acknowledges that he was there. Yeah. And people were well, meaning that there are some platitudes that come out. And people would say something like, Oh, he's, he's in heaven. Now he's with the angels or something that people don't say that about grown. People that have died, it's almost like because he was a baby wasn't, you know, he gets those throwaway little comments. It's almost like it's not valuing the life as much. Yeah, no, that's a good is a good point. So throughout that experience that you had, was there any place for your art there? Was that sort of, did you use that as a tool to heal? Or was it was it tucked away for a while? Like how did that sort of play out? Oh, actually played a huge role. And I feel like, without wanting to sound, you know, melodramatic, it made me the person that I am now and might be, not get over it, get the get through it. Because I'd been in art school while I was pregnant with Lewis and had teamed during the break. And then I went back to the next semester, art classes and, you know, family sort of question, like, Maybe you should take a break from art school. But I did take a little bit of a break from work, but it was important for me to go back to art school, and I really just became obsessed with painting then. And like I said, at first, I was terrible. But I, you know, not having a new baby, like, all my preparations had gone into having this new child to look after. And suddenly, there was a quiet house, and I was on maternity leave, and there was not a child to look after. So it was actually quite good to be able to, you know, I'd stay up to like three or four or five in the morning painting assignments, because I could, you know, it was a way for me to sort of do something that was doing something. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was, it was a way to, like hold on to something that I think at the time, I wouldn't even say I was enjoying the painting wasn't about enjoying, it was just about doing it, it was almost like a chore or a challenge or something. So in the early days, it was something to do to get better at it. And further on, it was like a way to something to hold on to something good in life, because it it's funny with with grief, you know, it's quite circular, and you can feel like, I think the worst time for me was about a year after it had happened, because I felt like by that point, I should possibly be pregnant again, and things should be back to normal and things should be fine. But in any in many ways, I think I'd had quite a naive optimistic view of the world and that view had gone down and a year later I just felt like life was just like, trudging through you know, it was all very gray and bleak and art was the one thing I could like make a decision to hold on to and make life good. Yeah, like in some ways, you know that that saying fake it till you make it like it was my thing to hold on to as something good in the world to get enthusiastic about even though I didn't feel enthusiastic I sort of gradually made myself force myself to be so yeah, yeah. So it was this is hate describing like this, but it was sort of like a form of therapy. I suppose. That helped you? Oh, definitely process and work through thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a my ex partner at the time Probably not fair on him to go into too much information about him, but seeing him NOT have a channel to express himself or spend time on doing anything productive, I saw that I was definitely the better off by having a way to spend my time improving on something I'm getting better at it. Yeah. And I think yeah, for yourself to, to feel productive and feel like, you know, there's, there's something like said there's something good in the world. And it might have also been like, a consistent thing that you knew, was probably, you know, it was up to you whether it was there. It wasn't, so it was gonna be there as long as you wanted it to, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And I think being in art school at the time I had, you know, there was deadlines, things had to be done on a certain time. So, yeah, there was. Yeah, it was definitely a type of therapy. Yeah. I think I think sometimes when the world feels a bit bleak, I've had my own mental health, not so much postnatal depression, but other types of mental health issues. Art is a good way to sort of keep busy doing something that feels worthwhile. Yeah, absolutely. As a mother, have you noticed that what you're influenced by has changed, or the way that you look at things have has changed in terms of your art? Yeah, yeah, I would say that. Um, I mean, I was still in the early days of my artists being an artist before I became a mom. But since then, I've found it's yeah, definitely informs my art and the way I see things, because everything that happened with my first son, and my second son, you sort of realize what's important in life and what sort of things are meaningful, and you look for meaning how you can display that meaning visually, so yeah. Yeah, nice. And that's something I, I like about my own art, which sounds a bit vague. I like that, um, I've got the skill to show something, you know how it is, I can paint something and people can appreciate like, Oh, that's a painting of a, whatever it is. And leave it at that. But then there is also that other element, like, for example, the robot painting we were talking about before, you could look at that and say, Oh, it's a child's piece of craft, but then there is also that further element. Like the layering that you get. Oh, yeah, it's so fascinating. I really wish I had gotten done this earlier in my life. Really? I mean, I know I'm only 40 but after long hopefully I've got a long time to do this stuff is so interesting. I just love it. Well, I'm 42 I turned 40 A couple of weeks ago and um, yeah, I guess I'm, I'm encouraged by there are a lot of artists, female artists who are going strong into their older years or even like fully come into themselves as artists later on. So while I do get frustrated that I don't have the time to dedicate that I would like I still feel like I've got the foundations of skills and who knows what will happen in the future I might have more time to push things further Yeah. Two really interesting topics I like to talk to all of my guests about is mum guilt and identity so we'll launch into monk your first because that's always a bit of fun. It's everyone's concept of Aries is different in which I love to to say interesting. What's your take on mum guilt? What's your thoughts around that? I'm, I've been thinking about that since you asked me for the interview and I'm undecided about mum guilt because I feel like it definitely exists. I do feel guilty about things whether or not that guilt is fair on myself or other people well I think it comes from wanting to do the best you can by the by your child and feeling like you're perhaps letting them down. So I do believe in mum guilt that way, but then I also feel like perhaps or maybe I'm just I'm just lucky and privileged in that I haven't felt as judged from people. It's the people I surround myself with. supportive of the things I do so I don't feel that sense of mom guilt socially. If you're not, I mean like I, I work and my son's in child in school and childcare, but OSH if if things could be different they would be but I don't feel guilty about the fact that I am not a traditional mum, and that we don't, you know, bake together very often or do a lot of things I'd like I say, while I do feel regret that there's not as much time together as I would like, I don't feel guilty about that, because that's where we live in. You know, it's if I were not working, then there'd be other problems that we'd have. Yeah. Sorry. Yes, I'm undecided. I definitely do feel guilty mom guilt about not doing everything and definitely times when I haven't done my best as a mom and being a single mom. There are times when I'm just so exhausted. And I've completely I've got nothing left. And I know that at times I could have done better and I lose it a bit and I do feel guilt then, but I wouldn't describe that as your what most people might call mum guilt i i describe that more as just like, general, you know, feeling like I did a shit job of parenting that. Yeah, hats off to you. By the way, anyone that's out there as a single moms listing. I've got so much respect for you guys. Man. Well, I'm lucky compared to some of my friends who are doing it all alone. I do have a you know, my son still got a great dad who's a big part of his life. So I don't have my son 100% of the time. So I do get time to you know, have a bit of mental space and not Yeah, so I think it would be much harder if you're that the sole custody parent for sure. Oh, yeah. I don't know how he's doing honestly. I'm just really weak and pathetic. You get surprised by what you're capable of. I never intended to be a single parent. It was not what you know. I went into a marriage and motherhood thinking but it is what it happened. Did you know it happened and managed somehow whether or not undoing all right I assume I am. I think I am still alive and healthy and a nice person. Yeah. Yeah, he's still out there making these friends with everyone. So you know he you know you're doing a good job yeah, this concept of identity that when when you're a mom, you just you don't want to say you're just a mom, because we're never just a mom. That's not the the right words, but you can be so much more than the mothering role, I suppose. What What's your thoughts on that as well? Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I do see myself as as a mom as a huge part of my identity. Especially I think having feeling like angry and bitter that my first son was taken away from me. I've held on to that identity of myself as a mother quite strongly like yes, I Yeah, definitely. That's a big part of my identity. Almost like the core really like is when you have a child, they're sort of even if they're not physically with you, they're there somewhere else. People I've heard all sorts of cheesy phrases like having a child is like having your heart out in the world or something that there is a trick to that in that you there's always a part of you that you're thinking about them and hoping they're okay and yeah, it's not the only part of me but it's it's the major part of me you know, I think being an artist and my job and my family and friends form a part of that as well but yeah, it's definitely sort of feels like the central part of my identity especially in this stage of my son's life where that five he still very much needs me a lot and it's quite physical you know, a lot of cuddles and other physical things cleaning up getting food and that seems to be the biggest thing and I they're always want something that feeds things to be excited come on you how much you eat. Oh my God. It's not seasonal. So I've got two boys and it's like my oldest ones because he 14 now and he'll the years he's been eating the same amount of tea is my husband think they'd like sticks. There's nothing off them. It's insane. Yeah, really? Yeah. Always growing boys. No Are you? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman is it important to you to continue to have your own interests? Outside of being a mum? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think having my own interests outside of being a mum, I feel like is a good part of being a mum. Without wanting to speak ill of my own mum, I think growing up in a very creative family and she was very creative and loved doing art, but she didn't pursue it outside of, you know, craft things for herself. And not that everything has to be pursued to a high level, but it did seem to me as a, something that she could have pursued and didn't different times different means that sort of thing. But um, yeah, I think my son, he's definitely interested in my art. And he gets to see that and something that I really, really, really want him to grow up with is a sense of perseverance. And the idea that if you want something, you have to try really hard to make it happen. And I think he's in in a small way, my art shows in that because he sees something from a small, you know, nothing Canvas to become something that I choose it to be, and he sees me spending a lot of time on it. So the idea of time, putting time into something and sticking to it, not that instant gratification. Yeah, and the idea that if, if you want to be good at something you can be, but you just have to try. So I do talk about even though I'm not studying, right at the moment, I do talk about art school, and how you can get, you can learn things and get better at them with practice. And so that idea of practice I talk to him a lot about and I think it's, it's an interesting thing as well, art, like there's so much so much art that you can go and take kids to, and it's something that we really do a lot together of so it's a big part of our lives together. And I think he's, we go to a lot of gallery openings and things together. And so yeah, in a way, it is a part of my identity as a mother with the art and having that it's important because it informs me as a mother to him, but it's also good for him to see me pushing myself, I think in spending my time doing something that I'm interested in, because not that there's anything wrong with sitting in binging TV show. I've, I've definitely done that. But I think in life, you'd want to have, you know, big things that you go after. And I think it's good for him to see that. Yeah, I love that. Because it reminds me of this, this saying what society says to kids that are you can be anything you want to be. But then it doesn't follow up with if you work really, really hard at it and persevere at it. You know, it's I think sometimes kids can have this sense of entitlement, I can be whatever I want, you know. And also that, that idea that that two things you said then sort of got me going this, this way that society is seems to be going about, everything's got to be supplied in an instant, you know, like this, I want something so I'm going to order it and get it in two days, or I've broken something that I'm not going to repair it because it's cost more to repair than to buy a new one and this instant gratification. Like I don't know, that I think for him to be able to get that understanding that, you know, a painting does not just appear on the wall of the gallery. There's, you know, all these hours and efforts and decisions to be made and all the stuff that goes into making that pace. I think that's a really valuable thing to teach your child. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's a very peaceful activity. So I don't paint a lot when he's around because occasionally he'll see me painting and all who see the progress is quite slow. And I think that peacefulness is something that's missing in life. So a lot for me It plays. So the sense of something being slow and peaceful, certainly doesn't hurt. Yeah, I spoke to a, an artist the other day who was a posture, like did this do clay took the clay out the earth, made it into shapes into whatever. And then you have to take a really long time for to fire it, you can't just put it in and expect it to be done in, you know, five minutes because it will actually wreck it and exploded, you know, everything takes time. And we're talking about how you know that. That forces her to slow down, it forces it to take time and to be patient and to appreciate the process. And you know, there's just Yeah, and she also makes mistake Mercedes she's going to be here episode will be out soon. I actually know her episode would have been on by the time yours comes out. Sorry. I'm getting okay. Okay, Visa the timeline. But yeah, she made ink out of acorns, some like, and then she was making charcoal out of like, vines, sticks of like vines, putting them in little tin and putting them in the fire. And, you know, filling up the tin and drawing with each other. It's like, we don't do that anymore. We just go and order stuff. And it arrives and no one knows what happened. It's just getting back in touch with the earth. And I don't know, we're getting away from that stuff. And that raises an important idea about when you're creative, like the process of it, like, it's good to have something to show at the end. And I wouldn't paint if you know, everything I painted, got chucked in the bin at the end of the night. But the process is really meaningful is really important as well, like, for me the mixing of the color colors that I need and the application. It's something that's real, it feels really vital to me like the process of going through painting, you know, if I could, if I could speed up my process, I don't think I would, because I really enjoy the whole. I'm very slow and take a long time. But I really enjoy every aspect of it and the different phases of a painting. Yeah, yeah. And again, yeah, it's not all about the end product. It's yeah, I like that do you mainly paint in oils or do acrylic painting as well? I don't paint with acrylic. I don't really have any acrylic paint. Aside from like, I'll start. I won't ever start with a white surface. So I'll start with them easily Burnt Umber I'll do in acrylic, just because it's cheaper to cover a board in acrylic than oil dries quicker as well, which is good. But um, no, I just really love the way that oil, you can sort of push and pull it in. It's so pliable and it takes longer to dry, so you feel less pressure to get it perfect. I do some I do do a little bit of watercolor here and there. Like if I'll do a little sketch or something like that I'll do some watercolors are from sort of autism instant gratification. You know, I'll work with watercolor, but I like watercolor has a sort of you don't really know exactly how it's going to turn out. I mean, you do but I get what you mean. Yeah, yeah, if you go with that unexpected side, you can get some really beautiful stuff. And I've I don't know enough about acrylic, and I haven't painted in it enough to either be able to control it or enjoy that unexpected element that I enjoy from watercolor. Yeah, I guess it depends what you can, what results you want. And I don't I don't think I could get what I want with acrylics. Whereas if I were painting something different and what after a different look. And if I could get that from acrylics I'm, I'm sure I would because it would be cheaper and easier to clean up. Paintings are a real pain in the bum. You know, at the end of the night when you finished having to clean your brushes. Yeah. You can't just do what I do and just leave it in the water till the next day or longer. Think got any sort of things that you're working on at the moment, like any particular sort of train of thought for your work or anything coming up, like entering competitions or anything like that? Yeah, I hate to say it but I've had a bit of a lull at the moment. I've had a lot going on On family wise, with my dad being in hospital now, and my son starting school, so I feel like this whole year has been quite overwhelming to begin with. So I haven't done a lot of art. I've done a lot of crafts that sort of like my comfort blanket, a bit of crochet. But I've always been in that space of time, I've been going to galleries and looking through art books. So it's always been a part of my life. And I've just been doing more practical things like getting boards ready, because I love to paint on linen on board. So I've been doing things like getting some wooden boards ready for painting for when I'm ready. And I've taken photographs of things because I work from photographs, and I have started a painting, which is sitting up on the kitchen table now. So it feels good to have something out and ready. So yeah, yeah, I sort of had a bit of a flurry towards the end of last year. And I think yeah, that's from working. Not quite full time. But you know, four days a week and having I have to be really self disciplined to do art, and I haven't been that soft. So yeah, but I've, I'm working on a painting at the moment with no, not for any particular competition or anything, but just a lot of things. The work I do can fit slot into competitions. So when it's done, so yeah, I'm actually painting seafood. At the moment, I did a painting of an oyster a year or two ago, and I loved it. And it's a Sargent painting of squeed that I just adore. And it's a lot I'm really attracted to the sort of disgustingness and the beauty of it at the same time. Yeah. So I'm doing a painting of a oyster and a crab and just the sort of the beauty of these, and also the repellent nature of these things as well. That's an interesting juxtaposition, isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing about still life painting as you can, what you choose to paint, obviously, you're putting it at the forefront and making people pay attention to this thing. And, yeah, what you choose to paint can be interesting. When you go to art shows, do they have like an explanation of what they're trying to say in in it? Or is that do you? Is it up to the viewer to work to make what they want from it? Yes or no? Yeah, there's often sometimes you go to an exhibition, and it'll just be the title and the medium. And that's all there is other times you'll go to an exhibition. And there'll be a catalogue essay that you can read, which is definitely worth reading, because that is generally written by someone other than the artists, but they'll have had a good conversation with the artist and really understand their concepts. So yeah. And then sometimes if you go, like, for example, at the art gallery, they'll put a small blurb around things, explaining them a little more. So yeah, I think I really do appreciate those catalog essays and the descriptions of them as long as they're written in plain English. And I think with a lot of professions, there's jargon, but there is a real history in writing things more complicated than they need to be. I find it really disheartening, when you'll, I'll go to an exhibition and I love it, and I buy the catalog or take the free catalog and read the essay, and it would just be like, feel really dense. And it just, it's almost like someone's trying to prove that they went to uni. And yeah, it's really alienating, like, creates that boundary between the clever person and the Navy's reading. For sure. And I mean, it's good to be challenged and to find things that you don't know about and try and learn about them. But I think in the writing of it, you need to be out, you can still write beautifully. And write in a way that's easy to understand. Yeah, I had an artist on from Ireland few months ago, and she said the same thing. She said, she said, there's all these blank speak. She tries to stay out of it. Yeah. And I feel like I know it. I can. I can speak that language because I've been school, but I feel like you have to have been to art school to be able to understand something. So yeah, it's an it's interesting, like, maybe that's why, I don't know people gets I sort of liken it to when you go wine tasting, and they'll talk in this special language of I've got I can spell tones of this and notes of that and you just think it's just why like it's just, you know, it's like why, you know, this world has to have The special thing and I like sit in alienates people. And then like, normal everyday people are so off put from, you know, entering this world because they feel so dumb, like, you know, like if you could if going to using the art analogy if people could describe it, like, describe it better and say when I taste this makes me feel this or that or something in a way that was more engaging and not like, made you feel stupid for not getting the exact same thing when you took that see if you know if Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? It's like this elitist. I wonder if that comes from. I'm gonna draw a very long bow here. Because when I spoke to Melanie, that all this stuff about patriarchy came up about how women have always been excluded from art. You know, traditionally, the women did the arts and crafts, like the craft stuff, and that was like, the crap stuff that wasn't valued by the Yeah, like things like waving that was just a correct Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, is that is all that weird talking language world been created by men to try and keep women out of it? Because they can talk in this fancy way. But women wouldn't understand it. Yeah, that's sort of that. Yeah, I think it's dangerous for any field, to spend, to not be open up to new voices and ideas, I think you can be quite, you can become quite insular in any field. And now mean, if you're talking, or your friends know what you're talking about, or your friends and colleagues, you're talking about, you're talking the same way, then it's all going to start sounding the same and becoming some little in, in joke. And, you know, if other people aren't open to that, then it becomes a bit closed off, doesn't it? Yeah. Did you ever paint with other people, or you always paint by yourself? Yeah, I do always paint by myself, I would love the idea of painting with other people. And I love the idea of having a studio space and being able to bounce ideas off other people. And just sharing the space because you are, it is a very solo practice painting and drawing. So I really love the idea of having a studio and one day I would love to but just at the moment. With work and finances and things, it's just not something that I can do. So I sort of artists, something that I more just grab where I can whereas I think you have a studio, you're paying to rent that space, you sort of want to make the most of it. And I mean, I was sort of hoping once my son went to school, I have Friday's off but hasn't worked out yet, but I think yeah, I'm definitely loved the idea of a studio but um, at the moment it's more just you know what I can get done at home and I'm lucky in that the medium that I love painting and drawing I can do from home I can. I've got a very small place I live in a unit and my artists spread out all over the table at the moment I can do that at home other artists, I guess need that studio space because it's the work that they do isn't practical or feasible to do at home. So yeah, yeah. Before when you're talking about your mom, did that experience of watching her not pursue? Perhaps what she might have been able to do? Did that make you want to do it more? Was that sort of a driving thing? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because, I mean, it may sound melodramatic. People talk about things on your deathbed that you would regret. But it would definitely be something if I got to old age and hadn't become an artist. I would definitely regret that because even though I didn't know that I had the potential, what I mean, I was interested in art and I suspected I could become an artist but I was so unsure of myself for so long. I wasn't sure if I have the ideas and be able to develop the skill. But I think not pursuing that I would have been disappointed in myself. Yeah, and I just I think I'm sound sounding very melodramatic again. But I think life is quite boring a lot of the time. Like, there's so much drudgery and so much routine, that you just really, really need a I mean, relationships make life worthwhile, but you also really, really need a big, huge ongoing project to be able to, to get excited about otherwise. Yeah. You know, like, the days yeah, that's it. There's everything said repetitive it just flies by before you've even realized. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That Is that is good. We should all live like that. Yeah, I'm saying that sounding Oh, you know, Oprah Winfrey, but not that I haven't been doing much at all. But it's been in my mind. So yeah, see, that's the thing. It makes you see the world a different way. Like I imagined yourself being a musician, you would hear things and think of that. Think of things differently. Whereas I'll look at certain colors or compositions, and it'll get me excited about things or make me think about things a certain way. So it's something that you always carry with you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you, sir. Right. It's been a real pleasure to meet you and to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. I really loved talking about, about everything we talked about tonight. It's been all very deep and meaningful. And, yeah, it's good to talk about the things that are important in life, like art and family because, yeah, it really is what makes life worthwhile. So yeah, to have the chance to articulate all the thoughts in my head. Listen to them. Thanks for sharing. It's been really nice. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Shanelle Franklin Australian MC, podcaster and producer S1 Ep23 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Shanelle Franklin is a presenter, producer, podcaster, voice over artist, MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and a mum of 2. Shanelle has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade with brands such as Channel 9, SAFM, Fresh 927, Foxtel, Music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on Fresh 927 where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. She has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room, and she produced, directed and presented her own tv show Jam LIVE which aired on Chanel 9 Adelaide and 9NOW. She has conducted the Red Carpet Interviews and Emceed the South Australian Music Awards, along with many other MC gigs. Currently Shanelle writes and presents a podcast called Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare with Tamara Linke, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants. As they discuss topics like incontinence, mumneisia and toddler tantrums, all in a fun and judgment free environment. Connect with Shanelle on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shanellefranklin_/?hl=en Listen to Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare Find out more about Catherine House Adelaide Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Chanel Franklin. Chanel is a presenter, producer podcaster voice over artist MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and is a mum of two Chanel has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade, with brands such as Channel Nine SCFM, fresh 97 foxtail, music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on fresh nine to seven where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. Chanel has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room. And she produced directed and presented her own TV show jam Live, which aired on Channel Nine, Adelaide, and nine now. She now has conducted the red carpet interviews and emceed for the South Australian music awards, along with many other emcee gigs. Currently Chanel writes and presents a podcast called motherhood a beautiful nightmare, with Tamara link, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants as they discuss topics like incontinence, Mum, nasia, and toddler tantrums all in a fun and judgment free environment. So I came first came across you through the South Australian music awards, doing your hosting and the red carpet interviews and interviews with the winners. So you've done presenting producing voiceover work emceeing podcasting that you first got your start in community radio, which I thought was really cool, because community radio, I don't think gets enough credit. No, it doesn't. Yeah, so tell me how that sort of started and, and what made you It's again, one of those things really were community radio and the same with 3d. It gives you this my my start was fresh 97. But 3d is exactly the same radio Adelaide as well. Where you have the opportunity to learn on the job, you make mistakes, you learn from them, that's, that's the key thing. So I used to be an event coordinator before that, and events are great, but they just they they age you before your time, you have the unbelief. You look like you've been dragged through a bush backwards when you finish one of them. As much as I love it, I'm not it's not it's not in, it's not in my soul. And I think until you acknowledge something that's in your soul, and truly what your inner being is telling you that this is your purpose, you'll be met with constant things of trying to guide you in that direction. So the event coordinating was definitely not for me, but it certainly is for so many people that are excellent at it. So I remember having this moment and saying to my husband, I'm miserable. And he said quit. We will just live simply. And we did and I think sometimes the more money you've got the the more you spend I know it's very difficult to just quit your job and whatever. But we ended up living quite simply. And not lavish too in order to still keep our heads above water. We weren't going to get ahead because we were spending some of our savings but savings at what cost you know you need to be happy. Yeah, absolutely threw myself into fresh I gave it my my all and I then decided, Well if no one's going to do it for me. I've got to do it myself. So I ended up grabbing the audio breaks off of the off of the track system that got there and put a reel together and sent it to the highest person in radio Eric who happened to live in Adelaide at the time. His name's Craig Bruce. But he was like the boss of Kyle and Jackie O at the time when they're on today FM. But he loves Adelaide, and this is his home. So I thought, What's What am I going to lose? He's not going to reply. I'll give it a go. And email you can kind of hide behind you a week. Yeah, absolutely. So it was easy to kind of do it that way rather than face to face. And he wrote back and said, you sound great. Come in for a chat. So I did that. And I got on air two weeks later. And now I get up plenty of times. I remember the studio door flying over from one of the content assistants saying what was that air brake and I'm like, I was trying to put a call to air and I press the wrong button and I fired that sweeper off and I didn't really oh my god, like it was just it was stressful. And I was like, Okay, I've just got to give this a go. And then I had an opportunity to move to Hobart to be their afternoons announcer. And I was I really love Adelaide. I don't want to move at this point where I'm thinking about having children soon. Maybe I am not going to do it. So I said to them, I won't go and that was like well if you don't take this opportunity, someone else is going to take it up. So they literally said we've got no more work here in Adelaide. And there was some on my bum is what I felt like and it was a low points I thought I've worked so hard to get here and now it just stopped maybe I should have taken it but I had to consider dance job as well. So it was a tricky time. And then I got picked up by a woman that was producing a music TV show called Music Room. It was airing on Foxtel all around the country. It was low budget, but again a great experience. And she said I'm looking for a female presenter. I thought Great. Okay, audition for that got it with another guy. He was the CO presenter and we did three seasons learn an incredible amount. We filmed it here in Adelaide. And it was a music show that was just for rock and heavy artists. And I know where she was coming from she was trying to create a show because the rock and heavy artist didn't weren't getting enough air time maybe on Triple J or things like that. But then I'm thinking we'll need this the folk Carter's and neither is this and neither is that yeah, there's a lot of genres that miss out so that that for me, I was like something's missing here. So after that, I got a job opportunity to run rip it up magazine. But it was at the time where they just folded the magazine and made it online. So upset a lot of people so I'm like great I'm going to be the scapegoat for everyone being devastated when I wanted the print to stay as well but it was a question of money and who was funding it really. So they so they did that and I thought as much as I love music it's that's not what I want to do. That's not my passion or really want to do the presenting side of it. So I thought okay stuff so I'm going to have a baby this is my quick way out of out of river. And that was that was in my mind. So I was lucky enough to get pregnant quickly with summer I had summer. And then I thought what do I really want to do? Because they just made me redundant when I literally was like I have to go back there. I want to go back so I love music but it's not really what I'm passionate it was that inner being going it's not for you. It's not for you, but I'm kind of ignoring it because it was a safe job and money. I remember sitting on the couch breastfeeding and I got the phone call and they said we're making you redundant we're shutting the whole thing down. And I went right okay, that's a good thing. Maybe it is alright Clean Slate What do I want to do? Maybe I can write a TV show who who bloody nose I literally just decided that I was going to back myself which is hard to do. Because the little person on your shoulder one side Jiminy Cricket as a supporter and then this person here is a pain in the ass who says well you're not a producer you can't do this you didn't you haven't gone to film school you you know, all this self doubt. Yeah. Which can be incredibly damaging anyway because often we listen to the negative stuff more And we talk to ourselves I believe far more than what we actually speak out, huh? Yeah. You know, and and I thought, I'm just gonna do it. Okay. So I wrote wrote a show up. And it was going to be a music TV show that was inclusive of all artists. It was celebrating artists that were traveling through South Australia and playing live music venues. So it's hearing them, but also hearing a local artist every single week. From a variety of different genres. I made sure there was heavy in there, there was folk there was pot, there was soul, punk, electro electronics, I wanted to cover as much as I could. So I presented it to the to Channel Nine Adelaide, and they picked it up, but to say they picked it up, that was a year of back and forth and back and forth. And I literally I felt like I was almost due for a nervous breakdown because I signed up these sponsors to invest in this show. And because you need to pay creatives to work on it, I was 100% going to be that person that was paying people for their work, the film guy, the editor, graphic design, work, all that sort of stuff. And then from there, it literally I had sponsors it invested I had a letter from nine saying we're going to air it but they also could have gone the minute they seen it. Now we're not liable for anything. They said he puts up to our standard we'll air it. So people invested in the show. I spent that money and paid the creatives then sat in the wings and went please add this because if you just put this in the bin, I'm up ship creek without a paddle, but it was just the most terrifyingly living on the edge but so much so that of course so much anxiety. During this old time, I decided it was a wonderful idea to get pregnant with my son what plan Oh, I've got no idea. Shit. Wow. So you've got the you got the 18 month old some are running around little girl, SAS pot, and then so much morning sickness and literally crawling around on the floor trying to appease this programmer at Channel Nine and pretend everything's rosy and you know what? Pregnancy I can do this I like the phone I'm like, oh, like really good. Oh, it was this facade and that I was putting the mask on the whole time. And Lisa Bishop from the external manager from music essays said to me because they jumped on board and they were supportive and she said it's alright you know I've got kids too it's it's hard loving and unloved is really hard like Why have I done a TV show when I'm pregnant and got a baby and I just Oh my god and she wasn't a child carry that so you know you you go to the point where I remember I was on the phone to a Sony record label getting approval to have an artist on and I'd left it for a second because she was carrying on so I thought I'll just go down the hallway to have this cool conversation on the phone with the Sony rep. Having a great time I've walked past she got into the friggin manuka honey. And I took one look and I went I can't do anything about that because I've got this into something cool last yes given her yay. Three jobs she's ever no not my kids got the honey all over the floorboards and they're all floorboards so there's cracks in them on like that's going to be ants for about 100 years Yeah. Oh my gosh. These moments where I've gone oh my gosh, just that's too much. And so we finally we finally got it on so that was that was great. Yeah. And I literally when it was on TV I was hanging my head because our in some of the TV Go Mommy There you are. Like, yeah, let me but I'm hanging on a thread because I was 37 weeks pregnant. And it got on and it was received really well. And it was it was great. And I then was it was due to watch the last episode air on TV and I went into labor Oh well he was only was 37 minute labor so that was trying to get out of me no time for anything except survival is what I was feeling at the time. Yeah, it was just so anyway had him he came out not breathing. So then there's that moment of when we're nothing else matters but but life because it was just a bit quick for him. And then suddenly I had this moment and every TV went down in the hospital. And I thought, well, that's a bit ironic because I think the universe is telling me to just stop and be in this moment with my child. And don't worry about the TV because it was going to end no matter what don't do an Instagram post don't do a Facebook post, just leave it and be with your child who who that was that moment I would never forget because he finally started breathing. You know, so thankful and and then that moment of realization and my husband took a photo of me and it's the most raw photo I've got, I've got no makeup. I'm not an absolute mess. And he's just putting put on my chest and got feta cheese all over his face. And I just held him in like cried and I was like, Oh my gosh, that was just all the tears of everything. Yeah, that I was trying to be the best version of myself and honor my career so to speak and be your mum to summer and be a new mum to Ali and live in this moment and then, a week after the show, after after, I'd had Ali boobs out of control milk everywhere, not sleeping. Great. You know, as women do your bleeding a lot after you've had a baby. And the Channel Nine people say all the one guy said can you have a meeting? I mean, like Sure, sure. Sure. Well, I'll just make it happen. So suck got set summer up with a endless snacks in the back car seat. Dan was still off from work. He pulled into a loading zone, Ollie feed him one one boob was bigger than the other committed to one move. You and he was reflexes so constantly through that threw up so put him in the in the car seat. Dan was idling in the car because you know, they're like the hum of the car. Just you know, release all those emissions anyway, thanks. And then I walked in, and I sat there and had this meeting with this big rig at Channel Nine. And they said we're not going to renew it for a second season. You did great. We did awesome. But music TV is just not where we're going. People were viewing music TV very differently. It's all very online. They don't sit and watch TV like they did count. And this was a very different show to count down. It wasn't on a set it was we were in the venue's filming. And it was it was great. But he was like people aren't watching live TV like that anymore. And I actually in the one season got the same amount of viewers that the loop got on channel 10. So which had a crapload more money behind it. So I was really stoked with that. And one and the second to last week, we actually I beat the football ratings. Oh, we can't get that Kenya. I was sorry. I was like, right. So they put me on at 430 on a Saturday afternoon, which is a tricky time. And you only get the ratings of people that are physically sat there at that point. You don't get the people that catch up. And let's be honest, most of us catch up on TV. Most of us don't just sit where the TV tells us that something's on we work around what we're doing. So that was a kind of a moment. I remember walking out one big big and the other side was lopsided. And thinking to myself, Okay, this is just the different I don't know what's happening and I remember feeling excited for the future. But then two weeks later felt really low. You know, where the where you've had no sleep, and you just exhausted and I thought and now I appreciate the time I had to just be still but as a creative. It's a really restless feeling. We don't I don't think we do very well when we're told to stop. If we stop ourselves, it's fine. But if we're told to stop, and we're halted and press pause, and we can't do our art form, it feels really Yeah, it's not it's not nice feelings. It's you get filled with anxieties, frustration, quit your question, everything question everything is what have I done enough that should have taken that phone call or should have done this should have done that to push yourself more. So I did a stood still for a while. And I then a year later wrote a podcast, because podcasts. In America 80% of people listen to podcasts. But in Australia, it's about 35 to 40%. But the rate here is growing faster than it did in America. So Aussies are really getting this trajectory, because I think podcasts are the medium where it gives the listener respect, because they've actually chosen to tune into unlike radio, again, like commercial TV where it just feeds out you when you've got the car on or you're told to listen to a song or you're told, here's an ad break, or the weather break, the podcast is completely the business choice, whatever they decide to listen to, whether it's crime, whether it's your podcast, whether it's something to make them laugh, it's an active thing. And it is almost a bit of therapy, because they're escaping whatever, they're escaping for a bit and having some downtime, whatever it is, so it is so they're really powerful. When you get into them, and they can be addictive, because you go What else can I listen to and learn? It's great. Yeah. So So yeah, so that was I wrote a podcast idea. And I wrote it with a friend of mine, who is a football star. And she got picked up to do the mix Breakfast Show, and could no longer do the podcast with me. So I wrote this idea. And then it went down the Pope. I remember having a chat with her. And she's like, I'm so sorry. And when it's your friend you like don't make you you chase what's happening for you, you go like back to 100%. And I truly still mean that to this day, I was just sad for myself, that I fell on my bum again. And I remember handing the children a packet of tiny TEDx whether it was the dinner time or not, I didn't care I handed the major packet of tiny Teddy's and just said just watch the Sun TV for a minute. And I went in the pantry and had the ugliest cry. Loud real, like God again. And the end, my face was all fat and bloody puffed. And it was just I it was the release that again, I needed. But I then had this moment where I just needed to fall apart, not in front of them because they'll come over and go What's wrong mommy and white, you're iron and you crying more? starve yourself. And then you look at them. And they're so cute sat there in their Teddy's watching boy, then you cry again. Yes, you have another second wave coming. So you're in the shower, and you do that again, whatever. And then you finally get this thing where you've completely dehydrated. And you pick yourself up. And I literally was in the shower. I love a good thinking session in the shower. And I thought what podcasts do I really want to write, I want to write something that is and I always thought I would never do a career to do with my kids or motherhood. Always thought I'd be different to that. And somehow it's led me to that. So I wrote this podcast that I wanted to share a bit for the mother who's or the dad but mostly the mums flying by the seat of their pants. And for someone that just needs to listen to it and go you know what? I'm going through the same stuff. And it's hard but together we're stronger because that village doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, it really doesn't and so many feel so isolated and almost don't realize how isolated we are. Until we hear something that someone else does that's the same and we go yes my kid does that to drives me crazy or or the incessant shouting in them with a drill sergeant in the morning to get ready for school we you know, we all kind of do it or issues with the pelvic floor where we worry about doing lloween and knickers or something. All these? Yeah, yeah. So we are actually more alike than we think we are. So I wrote this podcast and I pitched it to a girl that I started off working at fresh with she was volunteering to but when she got picked up by Nova that was when I got picked up by sa femme and then we both didn't work for them anymore. I'm and I said to her, Do you want to start for coffee? And it's one of these things that I am so glad I did we sometimes second guests should I should or not? Should I ask that person for coffee? Should I make that call? Should I send that text or email? Yes. For again? Yes. Because what have you got to lose? Yeah, absolutely say no. Well, okay, it seems a bit but you the worst is the regret or not knowing that's when you feel your crappiest. And it might not be now it's often later that it rears its ugly head. So I just sent her a text and said, Do you want to go for a coffee? And she went, Hey, lady haven't seen you know, just as short. I sent my shout let me you know, halfway. So we did that. And we I pitched it to her. And she went, Ah, yeah, sounds good. I've actually got my studio. She's a voiceover artist. So she's got a little studio that she's, she's made about her husband's warehouse. And it was perfect, because you don't need to pay for studio space. So we threw ourselves into that. And then it all kind of started falling together. Apple did a feature on us early on. And then we teamed up with Katherine house and raised just over $5,000 for their helping a system, we created this chemical to help a sister out. Because again, we wanted to be this kind of help. When you went out one of our fellow sisters needs us we stand up whether whether we're a mother or not, you know, it might be if you're in a position of power to help in a position of power means do have a house and a job, or you know, something like that. So we're all most of us and the majority of us are in that position of power, who might not have a lot we might have been loaded, but we can spare 10 bucks. So we can give up one coffee. Yeah, to donate. So that was the behind that. So we did well there and then it started to creep creep up a bit. And then Apple did a big feature on us only last week. So I remember checking the dashboard of our listeners and it shot up and I went a week prior they needed so they sent us an email, sent us an email and said, Can you submit your artwork a different way? And I've just done it in Canva because it was an easy option. And they said oh, we need it in Photoshop. Fine. I'm gone. Again. I'm not a graphic designer. So I run an old friend and said, I need your help. Please. Can you help me if I send you the elements? Can you just put it in? He said sure. That's fine. He's a muse. Oh, yeah. And he's a bit he's a brilliant graphic designer. He said, Sure, send it over, it's fine. So they sent it back and then they featured us and then since then, we've started to do well with it. But the idea is just to give mums that point to have a laugh and a break and see that their journey is much the same as the rest of us. Yeah, it's almost like it's like a validation that you're not alone. You're like I mean some of these there's the episode titles I've just got to read them out because they're so good. It's a bunch of don't wait your pants which is hair I can relate to that one my you know my amnesia when you're the baby sucks your brain out and you can't think of anything ever yeah x let's talk let's talk six which is good and chic man which I really like this shit well yeah, it's like it is where you're honest it's yeah, it's it's we do get that title of being you know I remember being so caught up with it a few things and work related or pressures you put on yourself that's probably more what it is. And then someone was just not listening. Far out kids like listen, listen to us. Not listening. Actively not listening. I've had their hearing has both been checked. They exceptional here is hearing me banging on about nothing. And I lost my lost my shit. And then you feel so I was like, wow, and then ship on ship on ship on ship. And that's what you do because you go I didn't mean to but actually was your fault that I know, you don't tell them that you just You're so wound up sometimes it is like a rubber band that just goes snap when you're in that moment. Since doing the TV show music, they got me on board to do their red carpet and backstage interviews, which I loved because it was chatting to all the artists and the winners and people coming in. And that was all good fun. But since doing that one of the people that one is nameless for Hansa, and he won the Best International collaboration award last year. And someone asked him, Do you know anyone that can see? And this was at just the last few seminars and he said, Oh, yeah, Chanel, Chanel can MC had an MC the thing in my life, but and I again, there's that short shot of doing that. Figure it out later. Then I had this meeting. And it was to be the it was at the convention center to be an MC for it was the Iftar dinner, which is a Muslim Ramadan thing. So how am I going to say these words, but anyway, I practice, practice, practice, did the MC gig and I felt that I came alive in myself. I was like, I love doing this. This is great. Like I really I just I felt validated, I felt like because always, I loved music so much, but I couldn't seem couldn't play an instrument. And I always thought the presenting side was my connection to it. But now the emcee work to I felt that that was where I could bring something that is inside me rather than something that isn't like playing an instrument or whatever I will sit there and have a vino and just play all the different tunes and just love it so I'll do it on my own don't even need anyone there. So I've got such a passion for it, but I can't bring a skill set to it. Apart from the the art of the communicating and the chatting. Yeah, so once that finished I then got brought on by Flinders uni to do their bands, the MC and book their artists COVID came with everything. Thank you COVID And I was I was cursing COVID for them because it was it was squashing me I was like I've just got this opportunity. And now it's going down the beam going in the bin. And then from there a few other big events like there was a big cheer competition and a few other big things that were coming out of the entertainment center. They needed an MC a school mom put me forward she goes I think Chanel does stuff like that done at once. But who worked it out later. Yeah, I put myself forward for that. It went really well. And then I started then Live Nation contacted music essay and said we need someone to do our ones to watch launch. Who can you recommend? They put me forward. And then suddenly, it all started just the universe seem to be working in my favor for what it seemed like for once. And I said to a girlfriend of mine who did a Reiki session on me because Reiki is fantastic. And she said, Have you ever I said I'm just sick of my career being stopped start stop, start, stop start. And she said think of it as stepping stones. Not stop start one lily pad to the next rather than hold stop progression. And I think when I started thinking of it like that, I actually changed my mindset and felt a million times better. And then music essay said we can't fly over the Triple J presented Can you do it? Sure. Yeah. And then that was that and then I had I just I felt like I was living my true self being out there and I truly loved being a part of the being next to the artists that were winning being amongst the finalists, hearing the cheese being amongst the performers, the Aboriginal opening ceremony like the smoking ceremony. Yeah, that just makes you come alive. I felt really connected to it and truly grateful. So that's that's been me. That's been my my journey of motherhood career a juggle. Yeah, and I've learned as I've failed, pretty much that's been the sense of it. Day Yeah, yeah, there is hearing hearing you express all of that. There's so many common themes about, you know, you can, you can feel that little bit of the self doubt. But you've got to do it anyway. Because you're so you're very open. Like you say to the universe, which is awesome, because I'm the same and a lot of our listeners are so that is so cool. Then you mentioned the Reiki, it's like, you're willing to let go of it and say, right, Oh, am I meant to be doing this? What am I meant to be doing and allow yourself to be guided in that way? There's absolutely no hesitation in that. And that's when you know, I think when you're living the true version of yourself, when your inner being and your physical self match up, it is pure harmony. And it is it is felt you really do feel it. I read a quote in a book once that said, I lied to myself, but my heart never believes me. Yeah, so hard for me. It's basically you can tell yourself, I need to be in this lawyer job, or I need to be working for a good ship boss, but he does pay me well, or whatever, you know, to do all this sort of stuff. But really, you know, you actually know and whether or not you're going, you know, but what I really want to do doesn't bring a lot of money. Find a way to turn that into a business because my husband what he does for work, he loves his golf is obsessed with his golf, and he's obsessed with Liverpool Football Club and Port Adelaide and all that sort of stuff. That's his thing. That's his passion. Some people have a passion and have a job. And they're happy to swap the hats when needed to be and then he's got his dad hat, husband hat friend hat. That makes him happy. Because his dream was to be a professional soccer player. He's 41. So he's an bus with a busted knee. So he's like, Okay, well, I can still do the other things and live and enjoy that. When I've got my job. Me I need to my job needs to fill my soul. I'm a Pisces, I feel things real deep. And I need it to, to I can't just I don't want to switch those hats. I want them to to be in as one. But one thing I did find really important was that I had an outlet away from my kids away from my husband away from my work. Yep. Which is my presenting MC work. I needed something completely different. And I found kickboxing. So it's bloody great. Anyway. Great time. So I go there twice a week. And this is a pressure report. And so so the kids come home from school. Yep, I'm like, right, throw him in a shower, and or a bath, use your shower, because a bath means that the it's reminiscent of a raining rainforest in there after they've left. It's like a slip and slide for me. I got to tell them often I slip. Oh, good driving up. So I put them in a shower quickly. Because the those nights I need them to be doing what they're told. And then I get them dinner. And then when dad comes home, all he has to do is do readers with summer read only a book and put them to bed and have a little play. So then I'm not at the minute he's coming home shoving it all on him. And then it's he's like, I'm struggling with this. So I feel like I've ticked those boxes. Now I can do it. This is what we do. We try and get it all organized. And then I'd go there for one hour, no phone. No, I'm uncontactable for one hour of that day, and I just do my thing. And it feels good to just give it a feel that I come home and I'm in that even though they're in bed some of some time still shouting, using every excuse under the sun is why she doesn't need to go to school tomorrow. Half anyway. Oh my god. She's a teacher. And then there's money. I I love you. I love you too. Please go to sleep. So I've come in, but I'm in the best mood because I've had that release. Yeah, that's somebody who's been really powerful because if works been frustrating or tricky, and the kids you know, be it's been, it's been a day, let's just say that's my way of just forgetting about everything and having a reset whether someone chooses to meditate. Another I read in a book recently about meditating and you can literally set your phone for 10 minutes, set the alarm for 10 minutes, put it on flight mode, and just be at peace and know that you're not going to over you're not going to go into this deep state where you are going to not forget to pick up your kids from school or sorry gonna forget to pick them up. You can just have 10 minutes to yourself and that's powerful too. We need that reset away from the whole thing. Oh yeah. That Is this something that every mother that I speak to on this is exactly the same thing. And that's thing, it doesn't have to be some great big thing. It doesn't have to be that you go out, you know, for hours and do some crappy thing. It's the hour at the kickboxing or the 10 Minute Meditation, as long as it's something I think is consistent. And that you can say, Yes, I'm going to do this, it's important enough to you. And yeah, like, make, make it so it's easy for the people that you're leaving at home, you know, like what you've done, you've you've got it all prepared. And then you're like, right, I don't have to worry about anything, because I know that everything's sorted. So it's Yeah, I think it's just so important is just that the most important thing really, is because I'm a better mother and a better wife. And then absolutely say, and I think when you live with a creative when you're not, I mean, everyone's creative in their own way. But when they don't do it for a living, when they've got more of a job, that kind of makes sense, or maybe a little bit more serious in like, let's say a banking field or a law field, as opposed to being a musician or another type of creative credits can be up and down a lot. And it doesn't mean that they're manic depressant or anything like that. And some of them are, and that's absolutely fine. But that doesn't mean you need to label them. It's just it's just, they're in their head a lot. And they have moments of feeling wonderful about things. And then sometimes they're just feeling like they're plateauing a bit. And I think that that can be tricky, too. So doing that kickboxing for me, is the best way that I go and reset, you know, you could be getting, you could have got an email that just wasn't wasn't the email you're hoping to get. And then you wear that on your shoulders all day real heavy. And then the kids are at you, for whatever reason the dog has put on the lawn and you've stepped in it all the just it does. It's got it's one of these things, it's never usually one thing, usually piles of things that we don't realize are accumulating until someone puts that last little bit and then it all goes bowl. And then we wonder why we're feeling so exhausted, tired, overwhelmed. It's the stuff we didn't realize was piling up before. Yeah. Yeah, then if you can, if you can knock down that pile, just like you know, by doing these things for yourself, just not allowing it to just keep keep going and going going. Exactly. That's really good advice, yeah Absolutely. Because mental health is something that I mean, I've got my own background with mental health and a lot of people I speak to have, but I feel like it's still not something that we're really great. I mean, we're good at talking about it. But the people listening to us perhaps aren't that great at listening and accepting and going oh, yeah, that's actually normal. Yeah, it's I'm finding in this in this podcast that people are being so honest, it's actually that same thing of like, people realizing with with your podcasts with the mums, we all have these things that go crazy. And we all have the same experiences and we've mental health to it's like it's actually normal. It's actually part of life. Yeah, you know, and we throw kids in the mix too. There's a whole lot of different levels of hormones and things going on that again, it's that hat moment where you're like I don't have a minute to cry and then a banks up for the next time. So you're wondering why you crying harder the second time because it wasn't the right moment for the kids needed. You're at that point. So you kind of just pushed it to the back of your mind, but I think mental health Is, is such an umbrella term. And I think every mother at some point, several times will go through their spurts of it, whether it be good, especially because you're still trying to live that version of yourself, be there for everybody else, it is really tricky. And a lot of mine was down to my work being frustrated me and just giving me what I what I did see was roadblocks. But now I kind of look at it as a stepping stones while I was trying to be a mother. So I'm having these moments of self doubt constantly, until I finally started to put the pieces of the puzzle still coming together. And when I had that Reiki session, my friend pulled a card for me and said, keep the faith. And literally weeks later was when that second MC gig came. Yeah. And then I started getting all started getting really great feedback, which was incredibly humbling, but also nice for me to feel that what path I thought I was on is right. And I am I in a different spot to what I was, when I did the TV show, yes, but so much happier, like doing the podcasts. And during my MC work. I am so much happier than what I was on on SFM. And during the TV show. Something still wasn't right. But I felt I needed to learn. I learned so much. And I'm so grateful for those experiences. But I feel like my career's evolved, and I'm happier for it. Because where it looks now is not where I thought it would look back then. But I'm ungrateful because it was obviously the universe's plan to say, we needed to stop that season of jam live, but only one to give you one for the experience. And then you're moving on to the next journey of what that's going to be. Yeah, at that moment in time. I felt really low and really bloody sad. And I'm like, is it the breastfeeding? Is it the fact that my son has reflux? And I can't put him down? Is it the fact I've got an 18 month old who's very attached to me, mommy, mommy, mommy, or what? I didn't know why I was crying, I was just crying. But then you get to the point where you know, you give yourself more credit than probably what we've been given in the past or that we give ourselves. You take a look into the things that you have done. And you give yourself that validation that you deserve. Because there's no better thing to do than to back yourself. That's the thing everyone else validating. Yes, yes. You've got to back first. Yeah. And that's the thing to you. It's sort of reminding me of when you said right at the beginning, how you, you were doing your announcing on the radio, and you thought I'm gonna make up this little show reel of all my little grabs of stuff and just go for it, you know, like, no one's gonna mean, it will I say no one, but some people this happens, but no one's literally going to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, I want you to come and do this. Like, you actually have to be our way to go. Yeah, I was waiting for it that whole time for someone to tap me on the shoulder and say, Chanel, we're gonna plunk you here, or do this, and it didn't happen. And I that's when I was like, well, the again the age old saying that if you want something done, do it yourself. And that if you have an opportunity, you need to you need to just you need to do it if it's innate in you and your inner being is telling you this is what your purpose is. Get up, send that email, do that thing that you need to do to start that progression and Rome was not built in a day. So it won't happen overnight. You will get roadblocks but if it was easy, everyone would do it. One more saying which is my absolute favorite Oprah when you know when when you know better you do better. That's that sense of me now being so much more proud of what I've achieved as a sense of where I was on the radio and on telly going. I still didn't feel as grand as I thought it would feel I'm here now I'm doing it. I'm on SFM I'm on channel nine. This is great. And I'm like I'm still I didn't know whether I didn't have a chance to enjoy it because I was pregnant. Or I don't know or I was trying On a high debt with baggy tops who does that? Just wear your belly wet be proud of that. But I felt shamed a bit because I thought I'm not cool being pregnant on telly at a music festival. I should be home singing Kumbaya with nice tunes that were you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, place I felt really out of place until someone like Lisa Bishop who's a mum herself from from music essay said it's okay. Chanel, you can celebrate what you're doing. Show show your bumper off. And I reckon I hid my pregnancy for a good six months. And I shouldn't have Yeah, you can play play doh. Yeah. Yeah, so I shouldn't have, I really should have allowed myself to celebrate that. Yeah, again, the girls that were on TV for music were not pregnant. And they were just a bit younger than me as well. They seemed cooler. So that was what I was trying to emulate when really I wasn't being true to myself. And the better way was to just be me. Knowing this now. So when you know better you do? How's that played? Out? Right now? Oh, that's not the bag and go happy? Want to ask you. This sort of ties into was saying earlier about what we learned from our mothers and they learned from their mothers? Is it important for you, for your children to see you in your own identity as Chanel? Yeah. 100%. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel. Some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall. He's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself. What am I going to ask that? Because I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age and kicking myself for not trying at least so and he said, the kids, you're an amazing man, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Yeah. Because you can work in a cafe. Absolutely. If that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing because they're learning from me. Don't just stand still because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. So I said to him, I need them to be proud of, of what I've achieved that I was true to myself. And as I'm getting getting older and talking to different people, people's truths are different. So someone might want to be a doctor, someone might want to own their own cafe or health food store, work in childcare work in the music industry. It's also different to what makes you marched and beat of your own drum. Yeah, but is that was one of my main drivers was that my children were able to be not proud of me, but just see, because I think that when you do what's innate in you, there's a glow about you. Yeah. And I can feel that energy in that sense. And I want them to do the exact same thing with you. If my son's obsessed with Ben trucks, stinky Finn trucks. Drive a big truck for the rest of your life, mate. You ready? Go for it? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Happy. That's what that's the thing you know, like I can imagine both of them running away from the microphone. They're just not like me in that sense. Yeah. But whatever it is, it's in your soul you do it and and back yourself first and then others will back you two pages How do you feel about followers of your social media or colleagues, knowing that you do have children, you sort of happy for them to be aware of that. I often feel that it's gives a sense of who you are really, as a person when you because we, yeah, I spent time hiding them away. And not from the media spotlight, but from the fact that I was trying to have it all together and my kids, you know, you need to just thought now I just need to bring them along with the journey. And I've brought all the team meetings before and he's watched trucks and on my phone who not great, but it needed to happen. Yeah. And then you move something spilled his snacks all over the floor. And it's really embarrassing. And I was trying to scrape by he cuz yeah, that's the thing. We just need to don't worry about it, bring them with us get stuff done, because what we're doing multitasking is brilliant. And it has not been done before. Yeah, absolutely. It's like we're paving the way for the future, paving the way for fellow sisters that will come come up the ranks and need us to set the platform. Because half the time we haven't had the chance to learn off of a lot of people. Oh, yeah, it's literally like flying by the seat of your pants is a great explanation for it. Because you're you're like, is this gonna work done? I haven't done this before. Gonna give it a try. What's gonna happen? You know, you're just feeling your way as you go. Yeah, I think it's contagious because other women then in a similar position might go you know what, I'm gonna do that, because I needed that reassuring kick up the bum to do what's right for me, you know? Talking about mom guilt, oh, I had this moment recently where I was, uh, my little one kept asking me to record him doing some tricks on the trampoline. And I went out there and I was so ready to record him. And he's doing his tricks. And I realized I hadn't hit record. Because I ma are in storage is full. And you've taken too many pictures of the kids. And there's deleting them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a great topic. That one, isn't it? Isn't it? Oh, and you go through and you're like, actually take none of myself. And not that we could walk around taking selfies, but would be nice to have some, you know, inclusion on your phone. Because they're all of the kids doing their little moments of grandeur, aren't they? Oh, yeah. We're always behind the camera. We're never in front of it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's like a whole topic. That one is pretty well. I think this is innate in us, even though and this is probably applicable to a lot of women that you deal with being mothers in the arts industry. In the media industry. We're used to being on the front of things because of our art form, whether it is emceeing speaking, presenting, playing an instrument singing anything like that mentoring, when you get your children you're on the back because you push them forward to shine in whatever they're doing whether it's so summer's teacher, my five year old she's asked her to read a little sentence at the liturgy on Friday so I've literally move mountains to go and see this one sentence. I'm making a practice practice Indian getting right what one thought he said to carrying on and anyway I was because of COVID you can have that many people there. So it's just you know, a small amount so I was literally moving heaven and earth to make sure I got a spot at this liturgy so I can wave and record the whole thing on my phone. Yeah, and maybe watch it back after I've had a few videos. isn't having to. Yeah. And then so that's the thing we push them to the front of they're the kind of shines in our life. But when you put your work hat on, you are the opposite of that you're the woman that's either you know, you're playing your instrument, or you're talking on the microphone, or whatever it is. Yeah. So it's funny how we kind of wear many hats. Absolutely, and are able to just like, swap them in, in a millisecond, like it's even milli second, there's no hat stand is no time for the hat stand. Instantly, and then your friend needs your help. So you're instantly there for her or him, whatever, whatever. Whoever is needing you at that point. And then you're back on the Mon bandwagon because you've realized it's 530. And you've not sorted dinner. So then, you know, all the time. Yeah, it's so true. It's incredible. I saw a image main things on Instagram yesterday, and it was of a mom, that was, you know, how you have those plates, spinners, and you've got to keep the plates going. And it was like all the different elements of what moms and I noticed that whoever wrote it hadn't put your own. When I looked at, I think, when you're supposed to do your own thing, like your music or your you know, it was like that wasn't even on there. It was like, Oh, my God, like add that in as well. And it was just well, and that's where I think if you don't add that in, you run into trouble later on. It's a difficult task to put it in. It's, it's something we've got to be really conscious of, and really mindful of, but I think if we don't have that element of putting ourselves not before our kids, but making ourselves a priority to Yeah, or something else. You know, it's, it's really, it's, yeah, it's so important. Because then you go through something where you later on your kids don't need you as much anymore. You always need your money, but as much and then you're trying to fill that void with other things where you and then there's that regret where you missed out on doing that for yourself. And I think we're better at doing that now. I think our mom's generation, our grandmothers, I think learned the hard way. Yeah. And then some of them now at age 50, and 60 are living their best version of themselves, because they've realized they've got that freedom. Where is that? When given that, that grace or that exception? Years years ago? Because you were told to just follow what your mom did? You did what her mom? Do they do what her mom did? Yeah, you know, so now we're kind of having this awakening where we're celebrated for having children and doing this as well, because it's not just that we're able to multitask, but we're able to show that the talents that we do have in a certain area. Yeah. And it's like, I've always struggled with this, this identity thing that deep down, like, you're still the same person that you were, act, like you just happen to have a child. It's like, why should all that, you know, goodness and potential and you know, the stuff you give to the world? Why should that just go? Not finished, your mum now, doesn't matter. Yeah. And the thing is, we work so hard in our careers in our early years, you know, especially in the arts, a lot of that is volunteer work based to get base there to get your skill set up to get your name out there to get runs on the board as far as experience, because nine times out of 10 There's no better way of learning something than just doing it. You know, you study at university, and that's all great, but having actual tangible experience doing something, or you know, playing an instrument, the best way to play an instrument is to do it. Public speaking, emcee work, it's all of that. So it's, it's really, it was really something that I think once you start to get that in in a row, and really start to get some runs on the board for yourself, then you get to the point where you're clock's ticking. And you feel like you're literally two versions of yourself because you're like, I want to have children. I've got that yearning, but I'm just starting to get somewhere. And it's like, and then you finished your apple. Oh can I have the chocolate chip biscuit? I promised him a chocolate chip biscuit if he sat quietly. Oh my gosh, that was the best timing. That was amazing. 73 So sorry, no, no, no, you're fine. Honestly, it's this is being a man. Exactly. Yeah, just just say you get that moment of where you start getting some traction in your career, and then something else innate in you comes a knockin, and then that knot gets louder and louder and louder and you can't ignore it but you're torn between doing what you want. to do and what what is what your body wants you to do. And there's no shame in whether you have children or not. But if there's a desire in you, it's very, very difficult to turn that switch off possible. So when you said before, like you just said, you're choosing between what you want to do, it's literally and what you want to do, like you want to do both things. But how you actually do both things. Like it's just this constant, like the juggling out, it's just yeah. And it was interesting. You said earlier, you're doing you do what you want to do. It's not at the expense of your children. You're not saying you're not putting yourself first that's what it was. It's not like you're choosing put yourself first, but you're choosing to acknowledge that part of your life has been worth and it's important that you are going to choose to do that. Yeah, it's not at the expense of everyone, anyone else. You know what I mean? You know, I think a lot of that stigma years ago, where they would have assumed that you are just selfish, and putting yourself first couldn't be any more further from that. Because the love that a mother has for her child is something that science can't explain, the best poet can explain in words, it's felt so deeply, rather than and it can be described as best possible but it's it's so deeply felt that's where so many mothers have turned around to each other and go now, you know, that feeling? And they agree, yes, they get it. So it's not possible to for a mother that wants to be there for her children to just go, oh, well, I'm putting myself first it's not that it's acknowledging that you are a priority to and that you deserve to still be who you are. Because often we're having children at an age where we have still sick, we're not having them at 50 years of age 60 Some, some women are but very unlikely. We're mainly doing it between the ages of 25 and 45. Yeah, it's like we're still young to do what we want to do in our careers. change careers. 5060 Yeah. Yeah, whatever it is, where they go, You know what, I never did this. And I'm kicking myself, but I'm doing it now. Great. Yeah, absolutely. Motherhood and work is no mean feat. And it is incredibly challenging. But I think what's more challenging is the not doing and then not owning who you are, and then not giving yourself an opportunity to shine. Like you being a singer, an incredible singer, I might add you you get this opportunity where if you weren't using your voice and writing music, theory has the opportunity to hear you music and in itself has the opportunity is this art form really that that allows people to feel something when they hear you. And most artists are truly themselves when they are either playing that instrument or sing that song. Most often that they're most often that songs. So what if you're not using your talents that have been the universe has given to you? What a waste? You? Yeah, absolutely. Give yourself back yourself. Know that? Yes, it's it's certainly not easy, not easy at all, by any stretch of the imagination. But what I feel is worse is the lighter the not doing the regret because then you can't change it. That's it, isn't it? It's buy time back. So if there's any any kind of kick up the bum, if anyone needs anything is that moment where you said you were at your your old workplace. And you said I just had this moment of realizing that I needed to follow my passion. And the passion just came things just have a funny way of linking up. Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, you just gotta you've got to be, you've got to be open to it. You've got to be like, right, I'm willing to not be in control of this, you know, that little bit of surrender to say, right. Do with me what you will, I guess? And, you know, lately leave me where, where? Where might you know that I'm going to be happy, you know, I'm going to be fulfilled. And yeah, you know what, I also had a conversation with one of my best girlfriends the other day and she said, I'm just feeling lost. I don't want to go back to my old job. But I don't know what I want to do. And I said, the fact that you say that now and she said I'm frustrated because I need to know, I'm getting impatient. I want to know what I want to do. And I said, You got to take your foot off. For starters, take the pressure off yourself and know that if you don't want to go back to your old job, fine, that's something you definitely do know that that's not right. So sit with it for a bit, had these moments of either like meditation or just calmly thinking, I want to I am open to receiving whatever it is that's out there for me. So do some soul searching, don't get frustrated with yourself that you don't know. Just start that those moments of trying to figure it out slowly step by step, because once you've gone one step, two step three step and you've linked up those little lily pads. That's quite a journey. Hmm. And you will get Yep. But there's there needs to be that moment in time where you take the pressure off yourself and not knowing to, which is ahead. So you're so vulnerable, and you're at the whim of whatever. And if you're used to being in control, it's very confronting thing to do. Yeah, especially. And often sometimes we feel that we if things aren't going right in the workspace that we not hide behind our kids, but just throw ourselves into that role more, because we're not ready to make the decision to do a leap in our careers yet. Yeah, because what I would say to that is, that's, that's fine. If you want, if you if you all you want to do is spend all your time with your kids, that's if that's in your soul, and you go for it. But if you're using it as like a bit of a not a hide behind, but a moment to not spend time thinking about what's truly deserving of you, it's only going to fester and get more frustrating and more, you know, pent up. So that's where you go, Okay, well, I am going to spend time with my kids, I'm going to just enjoy them for a minute. But I am also going to take that time to slowly map out my next chapter. Because they will go off to school. And they will, you know, start to be a little bit more independent. When then when you have that time, then that's when maybe you can send other big seeds to things, send those emails or look to do courses, the amount of people that have gone back to do courses, you being one of the mature mature age. The amount of people that have gone back to to study later on because because what they wanted to do has made sense later, it didn't make sense to you to work in childcare. When you were 20 years old, it never entered my mind ever been to the right time. So it was that's where they said you needed to do some other things first, and you were at that prime moment where you could give your maturity you could give your your knowledge. And you could give yourself that that real sense of okay, I'm at a point now where I'm ready to learn because not a lot of us know what we want to do. The minute we finish year 12. Honestly, this is thing I'm not looking forward to my son, my oldest son's in high school is his first year. My youngest son's just 10 seats. So we're highly different ends of things with schooling. But yeah, this thing with Alex, they're saying to him, or what do you want to do start thinking about subjects and it's like, no, stop this. And I keep reminding him, I say to him, remember, I've only been doing this job for nearly nine years, you know, you don't have to decide now, like take that pressure off yourself. Like often it's there's not a lot of, of us that it makes sense. The minute we leave school, and that frustrates us because we go we need to get you know, especially as mothers, we need to get this time in before we have a baby. We need to you know this rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. And that's where I'd kind of come in and remind and say, well, there is time before, during and after. Because people can't get away this day and age just being discriminatory towards mothers and women and pregnant women. It's not allowed. It's a big fat no. And we're deserving of that, that that grace to be given to us. And that that moment of reassurance where we go, You know what, you can do this, because you are more than just who you are to your children, you are still yourself too. And if you combine those two wonderful elements, you live your best version of yourself. Like that was the second best quote. That was brilliant. On that one that is gold. That is on. Oh, please. Thank you. Shinya. That's a beautiful note to end on. Actually. Thank you. That's Oh, my pleasure. To be involved. I was as I said, I was peeling off my fake eyelashes. When your email came through, and I was thrilled to be it so I thought, what better way to start your morning then chat With a like minded sister and have a coffee. No thank you. distraction device that my son moved to biscuits. Oh, I love that. Oh, you had any of your kids come in whilst you've been doing the nasty No, I haven't got to go there even Dan will give me a hug in the kitchen. Yeah, some will be like Stop. Don't Don't don't like it. Yeah. Get your hands off mom. Y'all wanna talk? Wait, okay now from the beginning, motherhood beautiful nightmare. When your child eats something healthy that you make, and they will sit down, and you are literally strutting in the kitchen as if you are Beyonce. You are like Jamie Oliver, you've just served the queen. You know, a palm reader did tell me it looks like you've been treading water your whole life until you're 50. As in the thing you meant to do is not going to happen to you. 50 on my for another lesson that's treading water. I'm like, that's a long time to wait, lady. Yeah, some good legs. I'm gonna we're gonna do in that time. Read a book. First thing I was thinking with my vagina. Like, yeah, isn't it what you know, asking the obstetrician that couple a couple of small sutures, but we're okay. bodies just come away from the top. But it's fine. Have you ever had a push present? I got my son's weird my third ring. My vital Is it better? Yes. Tell us more about your bottle of the eternity ring. As you said Hang on. Do you say eat turd? If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Gina Graham US photographer + social worker S2 Ep77 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In this final regular episode for the year I welcome Gina Graham to the podcast. Gina is a clinical social worker and a photographer based in Chicago USA and a mother of 2 boys. Growing up Gina was inspired by her photographer dad to experiment with taking photos, but didn't think that she could do it seriously. She dabbled with it in high school and fell in love with it, but put it aside to pursue a career in mental health . Gina studied and became a certified clinical social worker and specialised in treating patients with eating disorders and disordered eating. During a break from her clinical work after having her children Gina rediscovered her love for photography. Her style is very natural, soulful, emotive and raw. When it came time for her to return to her 'day job' she was looking for a way to blend her two passions, she wanted her photography to be a real and true representation and celebration of the unique and diverse feminine beauty in the world. Her two passions collided in her recent book Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World which is a collection of conversations and photos of women and girls, around the topic of body image and self acceptance. ***This episode contains discussion around body image, diet culture + eating disorders.*** Gina - website / instagram / buy her book Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. In this final regular episode for the year I welcome Gina Graham to the podcast. Gina is a clinical social worker and a photographer based in Chicago USA and a mother of 2 boys. Growing up Gina was inspired by her photographer dad to experiment with taking photos, but didn't think that she could do it seriously. She dabbled with it in high school and fell in love with it, but put it aside to pursue a career in mental health . Gina studied and became a certified clinical social worker and specialised in treating patients with eating disorders and disordered eating. During a break from her clinical work after having her children Gina rediscovered her love for photography. Her style is very natural, soulful, emotive and raw. When it came time for her to return to her 'day job' she was looking for a way to blend her two passions, she wanted her photography to be a real and true representation and celebration of the unique and diverse feminine beauty in the world. Her two passions collided in her recent book Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World which is a collection of conversations and photos of women and girls, around the topic of body image and self acceptance. ***This episode contains discussion around body image, diet culture + eating disorders.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. thank you so much for coming on, Gina. It's absolute pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me out. And I'm excited to be here. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So you're in the United States in Chicago. Is that right? I am. I am. I'm actually in the suburb of Chicago. Yeah. So totally different day than your night actually, in your Yeah, well, in the next day at this point, so. Oh, it's cool. It's one of the fun things about doing these podcasts is talking to people from all around the world. It's just, I love knowing about what time it is and what your worth is, like. That's like, the two things that I find really fascinating. Right, right. Right. Well, our weather actually, we just finished up the most gorgeous fall, I think in the history of, you know, on record, it was like the most stunning beautiful change of colors. We had amazing warm temperatures. I mean, we were really very spoiled. And then you know, the frost always comes eventually. So we're definitely kind of hitting our cold time of year and it'll be it's you know, the temperatures have dropped and it'll stay cold in Chicago most likely until well into spring. So we're kind of hunkering down and getting out our winter coats and know that we you know, got away with longer weather much longer than we typically do so yeah, do you guys get snowed in um yeah we do we do we get a good bit of snow and we also get you know, typically in January and February like really brutal cold temperatures you know, high winds brutal cold you're probably are you on Celsius? Yeah with Celsius but like Yeah, yeah, I know we sometimes get temperatures that are you know, like single digits and Fahrenheit. So you're gonna be like, You know what in the in the negatives and we can even have wind chills below you know, below zero and Fahrenheit, which is really cool. Yeah, like minus 17. That is in Celsius. Yeah, that sounds Holy moly. Yeah, it gets it gets brutal. Gosh, we're already sometimes grumpy bunch that time of year I always tell friends you know, friends and family that live all around the country and in other in other parts of the world like Chicago is a great city to come visit but you may not want to come in January or February. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's see I went when it gets wet our daytime here in winters probably. Hang on. I'm gonna say 13 Celsius. But what would that be for you guys? Probably like mid 40s. Right? Hanging? Fahrenheit? Yes, I 55 Roughly. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm whinge about that being cold. But I can clearly have nothing to do I think I would do well. I think I would do well in Australia. I think that sounds about right. Like once you get below 55. Why? Why go outside? That sounds about right. Yeah. Why I chose to live here is a whole long other funny story. But yeah. Good times, hey. So you're a clinical social worker, and also a photographer. So I, what sort of came first for you? What was the interest that grabbed you sort of first? Yeah. So that it's a it's a really great question. Because I would have to say that photography grabbed me first, when I was in high school, I actually, my dad, back in the 80s, actually, you know, did a lot of photography. So he was always kind of lugging his Nikon in his tripod, and, sorry, I have a dog that has to be by my side at all times. Hear him barking or whatever he is, he does not leave my side. So So anyway, my Dad Yeah, just was always doing photography when I was a kid. And I was kind of exposed to all of that. And then when I was in high school, I did take a photography class, and I just really fell in love with it. And it's interesting, because I think, you know, looking back on it now, you know, my, my teacher was very complimentary about, you know, just kind of the natural composition and kind of my eye for photography. But I think I just always thought maybe creative endeavors weren't really my thing. I have an a brother, who's one year older, who is an incredibly creative person. And so I think I always thought he was like the creative one in the family. Like there's only allowed to be one and it was him and so it couldn't be me and I had to find something else. So as much as I loved it at that time, it kind of fell by the wayside even though I was always the girl at the party that was like, you know, taking pictures on my camera at the time and And, you know, spent some time doing photography, but not really, even in college did some but, but not really seriously until later. So I actually, you know, had kind of some experiences that led me to, you know, the mental health world at an early and an earlier time in my life. And I just was so kind of blown away by the transformational kind of capacity and experience that can be therapy for people in mental health. And I kind of took a few different roads, when I was in college trying to decide, you know, what my major was going to be bounced around a little bit, and then settled on being kind of in the space of physical education and wellness and health, and then kind of stumbled into mental health and clinical psychology from there. So, in 2002, I graduated with my master's degree and as a licensed clinical social worker, and I've been doing clinical social work ever since then. So. So that was definitely, you know, kind of became my bread and butter career, you know, as a young adult very early on. And, and I've, and I've, you know, I took a short break, when my kids were kind of growing up for a couple years, I stepped away from a practice that I was in, but for the most part, I've been doing that ever since. And photography is kind of, then had a fun resurgence in my life a little bit later, which was kind of an exciting rediscovery of that medium. Hmm. Can you tell us a bit of how that did happen? How that sort of came back in? Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of, you know, like I said, I had taken a little bit of a break, when my kids were babies, I was kind of trying to juggle, you know, like life as a mom working in a very clinical, you know, very kind of demanding field at the time, I was in private practice work. And, you know, so it was just kind of me servicing these clients that had a lot of needs. And you know, it was a pretty high risk population, I've always worked, treating the field of eating disorders, and you can have a lot of medical complications and a lot of extra things, you kind of have to kind of keep tabs on from a medical perspective. And so I was juggling a lot at that time when my babies were small, and, you know, was just kind of increasingly able to work less and less because of difficulty with finding the right childcare. And, you know, my husband works in a job where he travels a bit and you know, commutes into the city, and sometimes it's gone long hours. And so, you know, it became obvious to me that, I just kind of felt ready to take a little break, I felt ready to kind of be home a little more and not try to do that juggle. So I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to take a couple years, and step away from that work. And in that time, I was loving being a mom. But I think I kind of had a combination of, you know, just all of the emotions that gets stirred up when you're a mom, and you're raising kids and wanting to capture it and seeing how fast it goes. And then I think I just kind of started to get really curious about, you know, it's like, I think the expression is like the date, the years are short, but the days are long. And I had some like long days at home with two very active young boys. And I just kind of got curious about what I was interested in, that could be a part of that day, that could also be kind of meaningful. And so I decided to get a camera and just kind of, you know, play around a little bit, I kind of just point and shoot camera. And every time I would try to take pictures on my boys, everything was blurry, and I just couldn't get an image that I liked. And so I thought, you know, what, I'm going to just kind of get an official, you know, digital camera, and kind of teach myself how to use it so that I'm not always frustrated with the pictures that I'm getting. So you know, in that time, I just kind of started to explore it kind of really retaught myself the things that I learned about, you know, the basics of photography when I was in high school, except at that time, it was film and I was, you know, rolling film in the dark and learning that medium, that type of photography, and I had to kind of relearn how to, you know, be a digital photographer and the digital age. So, you know, it was just a lot of trial and error and playing around and getting excited when I started doing things that I thought, you know, were fun to look at or meaningful for me. And then over time, had friends kind of start to notice or other people would say, Oh, would you just come over and quickly take a picture of like, you know us for our Christmas card, and then it kind of turned into this sort of side hustle family photography gig that I never in a million years would have thought I was doing while I was on hiatus from this very clinical demanding kind of mental health role. So it was a really odd time for me because I was really all of a sudden introduced to this whole side of myself that I not only never knew that I had but was actually convinced that I didn't have and so it actually was really meaningful and beautiful in a lot of ways because I got to all of a sudden kind of blossom in an area of my life that now I just can't imagine not, you know, being a photographer and seeing the world the way that I've kind of taught myself to see the world. So, um, yeah, so that's so the photography kind of got rolled into all of it, then, you know, that's a great story. I'm glad you came back to it. Thank you with your photography, how would you describe the style of photos that you like to take? Yeah, um, I think that over time, um, I would say I definitely really wanted my photography to be emotive, I wanted people to look at a photo and, you know, feel something, I wanted it to sometimes be maybe even like, a little bit like raw or true to real life. And, you know, I kind of always felt like, if people kind of came away from something feeling like, you know, a photoshoot that I did in any way sort of offered a little glimpse into their soul or made them feel something in their soul, like the word soulful, just kind of kept coming up, when I wouldn't think about the type of work that I always aspire to me, right. Whether or not I land on that is a different story. But it's definitely always in my mind that, you know, something emotive. And, and I think that's, you know, kind of where I've landed in terms of photographing women, you know, I was doing some family photography for a while and sort of was doing a little bit of everything, right? Like, hey, you need headshots, I'll do it, you need family photos for a Christmas card, I'll do it you need, you know, pictures of your new baby, I'll do it. And so I was kind of like the jack of all trades photographer, which I think a lot of photographers start out doing that. But you know, I started to feel this tug, and this pole to go back into my clinical practice at the time. And so I was just kind of trying to figure out, you know, how do I juggle it all? I can't, the reality is that I can't. So how do I take the work that I love to do in the world, which is, you know, working with young girls and women and helping people recover from, you know, eating disorders, and body image and self competence and self esteem issues? And how do I also kind of have my photography still be a part of my life. And so, you know, I think I've kind of definitely moved towards blending the two of them together. You know, we can talk a little bit about the book that I published earlier this year, that is definitely kind of a blending of all of the things that I've done up to this point in my life. But I think I finally kind of came into this realization that I wanted my photography to really be a real and true representation of, you know, and celebration of the unique and diverse, feminine beauty that is in the world all around us all the time, that is each and every one of us, right. And so, you know, it became really important for me to not be photoshopping bodies, or having people look overly perfect. I just kind of wanted it to be real girls, real women just being themselves and for people to kind of look at those images and say, Gosh, that's so beautiful. And don't they have all of their own unique kind of ways of manifesting beauty in the world? So, yeah, I'd love that. Because, yes, there's a whole a whole element of particularly on social media these days that says that we have to be a certain size and look a certain way before we can be deemed and I'm putting air quotes beautiful. Yeah, that's something that you're really passionate about. Yeah, yeah, that's what a lot of my work has really been. I think, you know, when you look at my clinical practice working within the field of eating disorders, it's an incredibly complex mental health issue. And I think part of what you know, is hard about it, is this this reality that, you know, I think we can kind of think, oh, it's, you know, just kind of predominantly young, white affluent girls that want to be thin for social media or for their appearance sake, that end up having eating disorders, and that's not true. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But what we do know in terms of how the eating disorder pathology really can take root is that, you know, body image can be a huge trigger for that. And I think even outside of having a clinical eating disorder or disordered eating or eating issues, the React alidium, unfortunately, is that most girls and women who have been raised in sort of, you know, kind of modern cultures where we have any type of advertising media, you know, products that are sold to us marketing, social media, you know, most of us are walking around, just no matter how we look, no matter how much we weigh, no matter how, what are ages, you know, most of us are walking around, just not feeling beautiful, not feeling good enough feeling like there's something wrong with us or our bodies are things that we wish we could change. And, you know, having spent the better part of 20 years working with people who feel that way. But seeing all of their gifts and strengths and talents and things that they're doing in the world, and then not being able to kind of reconcile those things, it just always really broke my heart. And I thought, gosh, if I can just, you know, put a drop in the bucket of, you know, girls and women's seeing themselves more, you know, in a way that celebrates who they really are, and kind of try to have this conversation about why are we all buying into this culture that convinces us of all of these things that just simply are tearing us down and not having us, you know, feeling like we're, you know, comfortable living in our own skin? So you mentioned your book there. So you bought your book came out recently? And can you tell us or I can read the title, it's called body beautiful, how changing the conversation about our bodies has the power to change the world? Tell us about it. Yeah, so So the book really came about because, you know, like I said, I've got this clinical background, I've been doing this for a long time. And everyone that comes to see me their story is also unique. And everything that you know, that they kind of bring to the table has their own kind of personal struggle, too. But I found over the years in doing this work, there were there were kind of themes in tools and discussion points that I was hitting on time and time again, right, with girls and women around this issue. And so I kind of felt after 20 years of doing this, like I had a couple of things, maybe just share a couple of things that might hopefully be helpful, right? I mean, that's the beauty of being at something for so long, and hopefully accruing some type of knowledge base that you can hopefully share. And I really felt called to do that. I think, you know, one of the things that's started to get really exciting for me in my photography work was the fact that I could bring clients in that trusted me and knew me. And I could say, let's do a fun portrait session, and I'm going to show you that you're not as big as you think you are, you're not as ugly as you think you are, you're actually beautiful, and you actually, you know, have so many unique and special qualities that you can focus on instead of all of those perceived flaws that you're looking at in the mirror. So I would bring clients into my office, we would do a photo shoot. And then we would in therapy, go through the images together and talk about what they were seeing and have an experience of them. And then they could kind of take the images as a tool to remind themselves later of how they felt in doing that work, or what they have learned from those sessions. And I really just loved from a photography and artistic creative standpoint, the idea as a photographer of putting someone just one individual in the frame and capturing, you know, the real beauty to that person. And so the whole book project kind of started out because, you know, it was COVID at the time, and I was really, really busy with my clinical practice, you know, in the, in the States, as I'm sure you know, all around the world that need for mental health services just skyrocketed, and we were all just kind of home. So I was home, you know, seeing servicing quite a few more clients than I typically would on my caseload, and just in front of the computer on Zoom meetings all day long. And, you know, no one was hiring me for photography. And I was really missing my photography work, I was really missing the work that I do as a creative person in that space in my life. And I just kind of got this idea of you know, I love coffee table books, and I love art books, and I love anything that is kind of like a photo book. And so I thought, well, what if I just put together a book of images of just as many girls and women that I can photograph and, you know, maybe I would like throw in some quotes and make it really artsy. And it was really important for me that the book itself be kind of like art, right? is a testament to like, aren't we all our own unique version of art, like, you know, and so I have this like really kind of creative, artistic way that I even just wanted the book to be represented. And, you know, and so I would kind of talk to all of these girls and women that I was photographing, and I would say, Hey, listen, I'm primarily going to take Your photograph for this book that I'm doing, but in order to really get some like quotes and kind of have us both feel uncomfortable about what we're doing, I just want to ask you some questions about your relationship to your body, or your body image, or what do you think about the cultural pressures for girls and women, and they would sit down and tell me like an hour, or twos worth of a story. And, and there would be tears. And there would be so much that came out of these girls and women that I was so blown away at what they were telling me just freely needing to talk about with this. And I was recording those conversations hoping to get like a quote, right, yeah. And I came away from it, like, wow, I have like this whole story of this person. And yes, I have photographs of them. But the things that they would say I felt were so relatable, or so empowering, or so inspiring or impactful that I was like, gosh, this is what this book really needs to be about. So the whole project really took a pivot, and it became kind of a collection of art, and stories and quotes and information. And I do share some things about navigating the world with, you know, hopefully navigating with better body image and some things to think about, or some, you know, kind of some tips and some things I've learned over the years and during the work that I do, but it really is designed to be written not necessarily even by me, but by all of these brave and courageous women that shared with me, their experience of living in their bodies, in the hopes that no matter where someone's living, in what culture in what body size, and what, at what age, there's something there that they might be able to think about their own experience, because the book is really designed to kind of go through the lifespan, you know, as we get older, and our bodies change, and we age are all kinds of things are happening to our bodies that we have to navigate. And, you know, this issue of body image, or how we feel in our skin doesn't go away after a certain age. And, you know, I would talk to women who were in their 60s and 70s, you know, who were struggling with, the way that they looked or their bodies or their aging bodies. And, you know, I just thought it was really important to tell that story so that we could all kind of just start to get curious and ask ourselves like, Okay, what does this mean for me? And how am I doing with this issue? And what still impacts me? And is there anything I could start to take like little baby steps towards changing my relationship with myself and my body? And is there anything I can do? Maybe to change this conversation culturally? Is there anything I can do maybe to be a role model to younger generations of girls and women, whether I'm a mom or an aunt, or you know, a family friend of a young girl or whatever, just to kind of have everyone questioning? You know, what does it mean for them personally to be living in their bodies in our culture? And what could they do to hopefully feel a little more at home in their own skin? Huh? Yeah. And I mean, I don't want without giving away too many secrets in your book. What are some ways we can start to do that? Yeah, yeah, it's such a great question. I think first and foremost, I think we have to just kind of create some awareness for ourselves of like, where did we learn this? Right? What are the seeds that were kind of planted that took root for to this belief system that I do not live in a body that is good enough, or I need to change and I think everybody kind of has this mix of, you know, things that they've been handed by culture, and things that they've been handed by their family of origin or their story growing up, you know, whether it was being teased or being bullied. So I think some of it is kind of just really starting to parcel out, what were those influences? And what do you think about that? Now, you know, I think I think people can kind of really start to ask the question of, okay, culture handed me all of these ideals and beliefs and shoulds, and rules and thoughts and pictures and images. But do I actually agree with that? Do I actually accept that is that something that I would want for my daughter, or, you know, someone that I love and care about? Is that the same expectation that I put on my friend? I think really trying to find little ways of standing up to diet culture is really important. I think there's a lot of chatter, you know, about just kind of all of this stuff that we've come to accept as part of our life and diet culture, right. Like we talk about our but we women sit around and we talk about our bodies, we talk about what we're eating, we talk about what we don't like, and we talk about what diets we're on and we talk about what exercise we're doing, and we talk about whose bodies we think are better than ours and we're so self deprecating and I just want us to just if nothing else, stop ourselves from having those conversations. You know, out and kind of start to think, Wow, this is not really positive or empowering for me to be talking this way about my body. And it's probably not helping the people that I'm talking to feel better about their bodies, and anyone that's overhearing it probably might also not feel good about their bodies, right. So, you know, the whole, the whole. The whole, like, genesis of the book really kind of came from the fact that I was at this photography conference, and I was having the most amazing weekend, the most amazing, I was so inspired. I was on cloud nine, I was thinking all these creative thoughts, and I was in this quiet, you know, cafe in the morning, and these two women came in with the only other two women in the in the room at the time, they were having this really, you know, kind of toxic, nasty conversation about their bodies at the table next to me. And we were the only ones in the whole place. And so I kind of heard the whole thing. I was like, Oh, bummer to hear that. Right? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Why do we do this? Yeah, yeah. Can we start? Yeah, it seems when you say that it reminds me of a conversation, I've got some people, some people that I know in my life. So I'd say we're in my life, but they are at the moment, doing challenges, like for the gym, to only eat a certain amount of calories, and they have to exercise this much. And when they talk about it, I just have to switch off because I came through a period where I worked in a gym and went through in, you know, treating my body not very well not eating properly. And so that's very triggering for me. But now, and but it actually also makes me want to say to him, why bother? Because if you're treating yourself like this limiting, restricting yourself for eight weeks, in eight weeks time, you're gonna go back to how you were and then you're going to get cross with yourself, because we can't sustain that. You know, and that's very toxic. The gym is an incredibly toxic environment. Yeah. And so when they talk about it now, I just think, Oh, God, gills, like, I want to say to them, like, like one of them said to me the other day, how many calories do you think's in a mandarin? You probably say Mandarin over there. And it was like, who cares? Like it's a piece of fruit like, this is where people's heads are at. And it just, I think that's how I used to be I used to have my little app, and I'll be counting calories. And I'd be out for tea. When I when we didn't have smartphones. I didn't, I was just a normal phone. And I had to message my husband and say, Can you look up on this calorie app, which dessert has the least calories so I can choose which one to have, you know, that incredible culture of not just enjoying yourself, but being so so preoccupied with it. And it's a horrible place to be it really it? It is a horrible place to be. And I think so many girls and women are tortured by this way of life in and I use that word very intentionally. You know, and, and I am not against health. I am very clear in the book, you know, I actually interview and talk to a health expert who had her own really incredible story of like, kind of like crushing it at the gym, right? Like she was like the most successful person at the gym, because like on paper and her weight and her weight loss and her metrics and what she was lifting and what she was eating. She was like crushing it. And everybody was like just putting her up on this pedestal. Meanwhile, she was depleted, she was in adrenal fatigue, she was miserable. She was hungry all the time. She was exhausted. Yeah, right. And so you know, I make it really very clear to anyone who was listening and who, you know, gives a fig about what I have to say that I think health is incredibly important. And so when you kind of look at that example, it's like, no, we actually need to be eating more fruits and vegetables. So if you're eating a fruit, let's kind of first of all, like, let's talk about do you have, you know, like, like, do you get enough of the right behaviors to promote health and wellness? And if you're making healthy choices, your body's going to go where it naturally is designed to go at that stage in your life? You know, given all of the other factors and can we be okay with it? Because it's actually a far more freeing enjoyable place to live. Like, I think if you were to ask most women, here's all the list of desserts, which one is the least calorie? Like and then to ask them, Is that also the one that you would enjoy? Or is that the one you actually want? Most? saying no. Right? Yeah. Honestly, like, I'm 46 years old. I don't know where it's going. I feel like I should still be 27 like life is moving. It's too short, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think we all kind of have these reminders, if we're looking for them that like, hey, life is short. It's okay. It's also hard. like Life is short, and it's hard. So can you give yourself a break, and let yourself enjoy the dessert that you want to enjoy. You don't have to eat all of it. If your body's telling you, if you're eating intuitively, you might not even want all of it, or slowing down and being mindful and eating intuitively, you might get halfway through that desert and say, I'm actually full. And I really enjoyed that. Right? Um, or you might eat it on say, That was lovely, and then move on with your life. Right? Yeah. And I think I think the diet culture will tell you, if you do that, you're going to be so overweight, you're going to be so unhealthy and all these terrible things are going to happen. And the reality is diet culture kind of sets us up for the opposite, right? deprivation, deprivation, deprivation, to your point, things we can't maintain and sustain. And then we drop it. And then we don't persist in asking ourselves like, what are the health promoting behaviors that might actually get me closer to where I want to be? Right. So from a medical standpoint, we mess up our metabolism. So that's why most diets fail metabolically, we throw ourselves you know, this you worked in gym you Oh, you know, like, we throw our saw our bodies into chaos and disarray, because we're not taking care of it. But culture was a Oh, good job, you lost weight. You said, I lost it by being miserable, and depriving myself and it's going to come back on because I'm not changing my behaviors. I'm focusing on the number. Right, yeah, it's that external validation. Like you said about that lady. That was she was the best at the gym and going awesome. It looks great from the outside. But yeah, the inside wasn't going so great. And I think that's yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that can relate to this. Because there's, I feel like, at the moment, there's a really big movement on social media to destroy this dark culture and to change the way that we think about food. And I don't know, the other day, so we're recording this in the middle of November, the heroin chic sort of things, this through the media now. It's like, oh, really, are we really going to go there? Again, like these people that don't eat, they have like cigarettes for lunch? And, you know, to look a certain way, because one particular industry wants, you know, them to, like, it's just so damaging. I know. And that actually, I mean, look, I I've been doing this for a lot of years. And I mean, I came up in that generation. So I'm very familiar with that body type in that messaging. And not a lot shocks me, I have to say when it comes to the things that we see in media, but that actually took my breath away for a minute when I was seeing that there was a particular publication that had posted, you know, this article that was saying, like, curves are dead and heroin chic is back. And I thought, you know, I actually had a couple of people messaged me, because I reposted kind of in shock and horror and outrage, and I had a couple of people messaged me, like, is that even real? And I'm thinking I agree, right? Like, in this day and age did did a journalist in a in a fairly sizable publication, actually, seriously post that I mean, in the midst of the opioid crisis that we're having, right. And in the midst of, you know, everything that we are really coming to understand about the importance of size, inclusion and diversity and all of the things that we've been working so hard for, are we now going to have a couple of news outlets post a trend about heroin chic for our bodies and get it like status back and I just was like, heartbroken. So yeah. If anything, it just kind of galvanized me even more about this book, and the messaging behind it. And the work that I do with my photography to say, you know, enough is enough, enough is enough. You know, because eating disorders, you know, outside of, you know, suicide do have the highest mortality rate of psychiatric illnesses and they are very dangerous and I think just even outside of that women walking around depriving their bodies and not taking care of their health is a crisis. So yeah, yeah. Totally crazy. Yeah, just shifting tech slightly. You mentioned before that your two boys and only boys now, so I have a 13 year old and a 15 year old. Yep. I'm in a house full of boys. I don't Muay Thai, clinical practice for you too. Oh, my gosh. We could talk all day about that. Yeah, I kind of joke in my clinic. Got practice I've raised you know, I raised a lot of girls over the years, but technically I am a boy mom, even my dog is a boy. It's all boys. Oh, do you? Did you have brothers growing up? Or you? Yeah, so I actually have one brother. He is one year older. Yes. You did say that earlier. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're kind of I think, I think, you know, here in the States, I think that's referred to as being the Irish twins, because we are literally one year apart almost to the day. So that's interesting. But, but it's funny, because when I was in high school, I mean, I had like, some really amazing girlfriends and close girlfriends. My whole life, I've always, you know, been lucky to have some very special girlfriends in my life. But I just, like, always felt really comfortable hanging out with the guys, you know, I had a ton of guy friends. So I think having a brother and like, you know, just kind of in a lot of ways throughout high school and college being kind of like one of the guys or that girl that was just always like friends with all the guys that had the girlfriends that the guys all wanted to go out with, like, that was me, right? Like, I was like the net friends. And like, I had all the really cute blonde girlfriends that everyone wanted to date. And that was like, that was like my life. And so I just was always really comfortable around, you know, the guy. So now I'm like, move with me and the guys, you know. And so as you know, the World Cup is coming up. So that's what we're starting to go how like, it's all of a sudden going to be like soccer locked down. And this is just all we do is watch sports and soccer and talk about soccer. So I have to kind of sometimes get my head in the game and be like, Yes, I have to pretend to know who these players are and all these things. Yeah, on that I'm gonna dampen the mood a bit on the soccer. How do you feel about where it's being held? And, you know, the ramifications of being in a country that doesn't treat women very well? Yeah, that's a yes, I know. And honestly, I, I, I feel like I've, I've not been following closely along with it. So I do kind of want to, you know, reserve too much comment. I think that I know, there's been a lot of controversy. I know, there's been a lot of, you know, just questions as to what's really going on, you know, in the inner workings of FIFA and so, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's gonna be really interesting to watch and to kind of see, but yeah, I think I think that we are definitely at a time historically, where I think it's really important for women to kind of champion other women all across the globe in any way possible. Right. And I just, you know, I know there's all parts of the world where there are things happening against women and for women that is not honoring the dignity and the spirit of women and it's truly heartbreaking. And I think it's really doing a disservice to our planet. I think that you know, women have such a incredible nurturing you know, kind of differently creative way of being in the world and I think I think kind of the the, the surgence of women to kind of come out and say, you know, we really need to kind of fight up and stand for you know, stand up and fight for you know, our rights and the rights of other women is really important right now. Absolutely. Because yes, there is a lot there's a lot of going on particularly like you know Iran and Afghanistan off the top of my head but I'm sure there's a lot going on in a lot of other places that we don't see on the New Zealand day too so yeah. question that I like to talk to all my moms about is the concept of mum guilt. Or Mum Mum guilt so that was a really bad attempt. Mom guilt minute. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Concept and the topic? Yeah, my mom guilt so mum guilt. Um, yeah, it's interesting. I, I mean, find me the mom that doesn't, you know, experienced this to some degree. I just, it's interesting because in my mental health work, I talk a lot with my clients about how the interesting thing is that we're truly like cave for If cave people living in this modern world, right, like our world has evolved in this incredible way, but like our bodies, and our brains have not caught up with it and have not kept pace. So there's a lot of things that I think happened psychologically, for the human race right now in modern culture that actually is kind of like trying to reconcile sort of these primitive parts of the brain are these primitive ways that the brain operates. And then like our kind of modern culture, and I think, mom guilt is kind of an interesting one, because I sort of wonder if that isn't a part of that, right? It's like, if you think about how the survival of our species literally is dependent on Mothers not only giving birth to the babies, but nursing them, nurturing them, feeding them caring for them, so that they can go on and propagate the species forward. So it's interesting when you think about like, Is mom guilt, almost one of these things that is hardwired into us that we're like, supposed to feel so that the species doesn't die out? Right? Yeah. And so I think so I think that, you know, it's interesting, like, it's so primal and primitive, like if we didn't have mom guilt, and we didn't feel tethered to our kids, no matter where we were, like, who would be taking care of the kids, you know, what I mean? So, I mean, really, because if you look at, you know, culturally, at least in sort of modern Western culture, you know, my generation is the first generation where I feel like, dads kind of have a very active part in sort of the upbringing and the rearing of their kids, right, the generations prior to us that were very well delineated gender roles. And so up until very, very, very recently, like right now in human history, if moms weren't feeling mom guilt, the children wouldn't be thriving. Right? Yeah. And that's a biological thing. So I think that we're just kind of trying to figure it out of women, right? It's like, I biologically primally primitively feel so tethered and kind of needed by my kids, and I want to be there. And I feel like I'm needing to be there. And I'm reconciling the fact that maybe I can't, I can't be there all the time. Right? Like, I literally don't have live in a village with my children around me all the time. And we don't go any farther than like these five huts. Yeah. So we have to as modern moms, we have to venture away from our kids. Some of us are in situations where financially we have to work, we have to be in the workforce, right? Some of us want to be in the workforce, some of us choose to stay at home, and raise our children and have the financial, you know, kind of benefits and wherewithal to be able to make that choice. But it still might not be good for us to be there all the time. Because we still might need to go out and pursue our own, you know, our own endeavors, our own, you know, friendship circles, our own things. And so I think it's really interesting when you kind of look at this idea of mom guilt, because, you know, I know, I know, everybody kind of grappled with it to some degree and struggles with it. But I do think it's kind of rooted in something very primitive that we need to kind of, just try to understand from the perspective of, you know, maybe looking through that lens, looking at it through that lens, but also giving ourselves permission to, you know, continue to kind of pursue whatever it is we need to pursue, or we want to pursue in the world with with maybe a little less guilt, you know, because, yeah, guilt is such a heavy emotion, you know? Absolutely. And I think you're definitely right. We do need something else other than our role as mothers and fathers. Because I'm pretty sure we did lots of things before we had children, we felt we fit lots into that time, you know, now we've got the children, but we still probably have things that we want to do. And, you know, some of us are fortunate enough to be able to do that, like whether it's, you know, we've got the time, we've got the resources or the way, just the way, our you know, our circumstances are, but I'm sure there's a lot of people that do want to do things and can't quite make it work, which would be very frustrating. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you know, I was I was, you know, like I said earlier, I was lucky that I, you know, was able to kind of take a few years off from my clinical practice when I needed to, I was kind of doing that juggle, and that hustle of all the things when my kids were babies and trying to figure out that stage of life with working. When I did take time off. I was, you know, such a, I was so kind of kind of fortunate to be able to be a very present mom. You know, and involved mom and in those years and so, now that I've shifted to being more involved with my work writing this book having different, you know, interests and passions outside of raising my kids, I would say that I personally am not in a season of my life, where I'm feeling an excessive amount of mom guilt, it's a little bit different. I think with teenagers, it's, you know, they have just very different needs of your, your, your presence and your focus and your your time and your energy. And so that's, I'm at a season of life where I'm just trying to figure out the trickiness of that, right, you know, and so, if I like, miss that little window, and then it's gone, you know, because we're on the same room for a while, or, you know, they're kind of out doing something or whatever, you know, I'm kind of at this stage of life, where I see how quickly it's all going and I can count, you know, with, with both my kids the number of years, they'll still be in this house on one hand with less thing you know, and so to me, that's, I think it's less about guilt, and just more about really wanting to double down on making the most of the time that we do have, because, you know, from from from my kids, it's a very busy stage of life, and everybody's going in lots of different directions. And the time that we do have all together that's kind of meaningful quality of time, just feels like it's constantly slipping through my fingers. So it's less of a guilt and more of kind of a melancholy a little bit and sort of a bittersweet, you know, reckoning of the reality of time. So, yeah, now I can definitely relate to that. I've got a almost 15 year old and a seven year old, so Oh, yeah. It's interesting. I want one to Well, I want them both to stop growing up, that would be nice. But the needs, the needs that they require are incredibly different. And it's, it's sometimes a very tricky juggle. Because yeah, you're right, when with those teenagers, you only get a limited time when they're available to you, I suppose. So. Be ready at the same time as gratiae with their presence. Okay, in Australia, what age do kids learn how to drive a car? I think we do come up if it's 16 or 17, six, okay. So you're not quite there yet. In the states where I live in Illinois, when you're 15. You can be learning to drive a car. Yeah. And you get your license when you're 16. So so I'm teaching my 15 year old how to drive right now. Which is, so I think, for me, the predominant emotion, going back to the question about manga isn't guilt, it's fear, right? It's like straight up anxiety and fear. Like my kids about to be on the road, he's on the road with friends who already have their license. They're out in the world, you know, when they kind of talk about like, bigger kids bigger problems, and having worked in mental health for teenagers for 20 years. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I think the predominant mental health issue for myself is less about guilt and worry about anxiety. Just straight up, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that stage. I'm really not. I'm really not. Because there's, there's a bit of a culture. We live in a country, sort of country area. And there's a bit of a culture about boys in cars, and, you know, driving fast and challenging each other and taking risks and all that sort of thing. So definitely not looking forward to that phase. But I think Alex is he's got his head screwed on right he's gonna be pretty right I think. I'm sure yes. Yeah, so the other thing that I really liked to talk about is this identity, so the way that we see ourselves and perhaps how that might have changed when you became a mother, did you sort of go through any sort of big shifts? Yeah, um, I mean, definitely, I think there were, like, right off the bat. So many events and things that just felt so deeply powerful for me that it you know, you just don't know to expect it you just think oh, I'm going to be a mom and you know, it's going to be great or it's going to be whatever it's gonna be, but like, you know, the things that really kind of knock your socks off, right? That just completely make you be like, Wow, I can't even believe I just experienced this or I experienced that feeling or whatever. So I definitely think, you know, becoming a mom really changed me in a lot of ways. It's, it's interesting because, you know, I think I am a bit of a kind of, naturally sort of perfectionistic sort of controlling type of person, and personality. And so, being a mom has really forced me to look at, you know, some of the things kind of in that shadow for me that I needed to kind of continue even, you know, 15 years later to just try every day, to kind of grow up myself a little bit like, my kids are kind of growing me up a bit too, in terms of like, faith and patience and things that you know, I'm trying to learn, I think that it is easy to feel that mothering and motherhood is so all consuming in so many ways, right? You have like the all consuming emotion you have the all consuming, especially when they're little all consuming need of like, literally your body in every last ounce of your energy and your whole kind of world does, especially in those early years get gets so caught up in the the role of mom or mum. And you know, and I think that it is it was interesting, I'll say, for me personally, it was interesting for me to kind of start to get curious about like, Okay, I love this, but like what else? You know, I love this, but who else? What, where else do I need to grow as a person? You know, I, I was kind of thrilled to get back into my work as a clinical therapist, because I think it just really drove home for me that we're all kind of like these little pie charts, right. And that was a big part of my pie chart was, you know that I'm a helping person and I have this skill set. And I have these kind of natural inclinations to help people in this way. And then photography became this other part of my pie chart, right. And then I've had other life experiences outside of being a mom that just happened in my 40s That made me really need to grow in my faith and my spiritual relationship and kind of caused me to really stop and question, you know, what do I really believe? And how do I want to live? And what are the areas of my life where I want to continue to grow just as a person outside of being a mom, just to be a, you know, a person who is constantly evolving and learning and growing and changing and not stagnating? Right. So I think, you know, there's been a little bit of all of that, for me, I think, you know, the, the fun surprising piece for me was that I think it was through becoming a mom that I was finally able to realize that I was a creative person. And that's just been the most beautiful gift in my life, right to kind of go through life with young boys doing creative things with them. I mean, we used to, like, you know, paint all the time. And we you know, we're redoing our basement one year, so we just kind of had like, you know, unfinished walls, and we just, like started painting big murals on the walls. And I just really got so into creative thinking, creative, living, creative being and of course, my photography was a part of that, but it's bigger than that, for me now, and I just love living life through that lens. And I think motherhood kind of birthed that for me. You know? It's interesting, you say that I was talking to someone the other day for a podcast, it said almost the same thing. was almost like having children gave them permission to let that creative side come out of them that they might have been holding in. Yeah, yeah. It's really good. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it for sure. Did that for me. And I think, you know, part of the thing that's hard, you know, and being a mom and being an or being a parent, or just being a busy person who is also a creative is like kind of finding time for all of that, you know, and so I think you know, really kind of reminding myself that you know, it's okay to make that a priority and it's okay to set aside some time for that. And if there isn't time for that in certain seasons for whatever reason, how can you still be a creative being in the world right? I mean, as mothers we are inherently creative, we created babies we created life. Yeah, we are all we are all creative beings. So so that very much kind of got switched on. All those lights got switched on for me. Wow, that's awesome. That's really good. With your creativity and in your book that you've made in the work that you do, is it important to you that your boys see that and see that you are capable of creativity outside of what you do with them as a mother? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I think I think they are probably constantly underwhelmed by me, and there's like, not a thing I could do that would be interesting or noteworthy. I mean, actually, I think they would go like the other way and say that, like, everything I do is actually cringy. And embarrassing. And I stop just even being in the room. Because it's so embarrassing. But but it but it really is important to me, I think, first and foremost, you know, like I said, we're kind of, you know, I have two boys that are kind of naturally athletically inclined, and, you know, my husband was an athlete. And so I kind of always want to remind them, like, hey, you know, we all have all five to Earth. And even though you're so aligned with, you know, your athletics and the sports that you love to do, like, don't forget that you used to really love to draw, don't forget that you used to actually really love to paint or you like, picked up musical instruments, when you were little or learn to, you know, play something for a time. And so, I think having my life having lived really well into my 30s, not thinking I was creative, it was almost, I felt like, you know, I kind of looking back on that just sort of feel sad at the thought that like, I wouldn't have been able to kind of be in touch with those parts of myself that now give me so much incredible, like inspiration and motivation and, and are such a part of my day to day life that I do want them to kind of see, hey, you know, you can have lots of different sides. And creativity is something that, you know, maybe mom does from time to time, or we do as a family or whatever, and like, you know, that they can always come back to those things or explore those things. You know, I'm a big believer that, you know, as you go through life, it is important to keep kind of growing and changing and learning new things. And it's kind of that, you know, fixed mindset, or open mindset or growth mindset type of thing, where it's like, you know, I think, you know, showing them like to just kind of always be open and have a growth mindset that, hey, you might not know how to do watercolours, but if you're interested in it, like you can certainly, you know, give it a try. In terms of the book, you know, it was really interesting, I do feel like, I was kind of able to recognize that the boys were kind of putting that together a little bit at the time that that book was launched, and we did a local launch, and it had a really good turnout. And it was kind of neat to see them be able to recognize that I had done something that hopefully is meaningful and kind of giving back. And it was very important for me to role model that for them, you know, I dedicated the book to my boys, even though it's a book about women's body image issues. And then I did that very intentionally, because I just really, so deeply want them to know, if you feel called or pulled in any direction to do anything. Go for it and do it and don't hold back. And you know, they, they did kind of see the blood, sweat and tears that went into that. And they did kind of get the behind the scenes of kind of what it took out of me and where I had to sacrifice in my life to make that happen. And all of the steps that I had to take to get there. And I was really proud that they were able to kind of see that model through the work that I had done. So yeah. Now that's really important. And I think when you're talking about including boys in things, like there's two points to that, I think it's important to note that any sort of eating disorder or disordered eating can happen to anybody. It doesn't just fit. Absolutely. But also I think it's really important that possibly the the hand that men have had, in creating this world, that women are so judgmental of themselves. And perhaps if they weren't doing that he might help us a little bit. Yeah, putting that in a nice way. But you know what I'm absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I do think there are, you know, it was hard for me to kind of look at that project through, you know, the lens of just kind of one gender, because I don't believe that my overall messaging is just about one gender, right. And in treating eating disorders, I certainly have seen and treated my fair share of boys and men with eating disorders and body image issues and their issues are just a little bit different. It's like, you know, there's kind of a different approach that you know, I would take or a different way that we kind of spin it I did think it was important to just kind of speak to the very specific cultural experience of God. Throwing up female. Yeah, yeah. And where that landed, but yeah, for sure. It can, you know, the insecurities or the the kind of Hey culture handed me this and, you know, now I don't know if that's really working for me can apply to all of us in some way, shape or form so yeah, cultural norms, that's something that I find interesting, I sort of, as I do this, I've been doing this podcast for 18 months, roughly. And as I've gone through, I sort of find these interesting threads that often come up. So then I add them into, like, the permanent thing that I like to talk about. And the cultural norms is something that I find really interesting. And we did talk briefly, we did sort of mentioned about, you know, this is the first generation where the dads are really involved, was your mum of that era, were mums had to just be at home, look after the family, or was your mum able to, you know, get her own interest and do our own interests and have our own outlet as well? Yeah, so my, my upbringing, I think I kind of have a, you know, generation that can kind of take the best of, you know, kind of both sides of that equation. In terms of my upbringing, you know, my mom was very much of the generation where, at least where I grew up, you know, most of the moms were stay at home moms. My mom was a teacher before, you know, my brother and I were born and when we were little, and she, you know, kind of did some work when we were little, but she's a very, she's, she is a very gifted writer, you know, but my mom, my mom is just so great. And that she has, you know, she, she has this spirit about her, she has this very kind of feisty spirit about her. And so when we were growing up, she was very involved, she was incredibly nurturing, she was always, you know, kind of helping us with whatever we needed and involved with our sports in school and all that. But she also, you know, kind of modeled that, hey, I'm gonna go out with my friends. And we're gonna go, you know, for doughnuts every Friday morning, or we're gonna go out and play golf, and she used to kind of go play rounds of golf. And, you know, I'd be, you know, we'd all be at the pool with our moms all off playing golf, like the whole day. No, so she definitely and you know, she always love to have a good party and have lots of great friends. And, you know, so my mom, I think very much, you know, kind of modeled for me, hey, you know, just because, you know, I'm here at home, you know, most of the day, and I don't work outside of the home right now, there are all these things that I want to go and do an experience. And, you know, my dad actually was, in the medical field, my dad was a dentist, and he had his own practice. And so I, I was kind of able to also have modeled for me through my dad, the importance of, you know, the importance and the challenges of being self employed. So I think that always really impacted me, you know, I would kind of see the benefits of him being self employed and being his own boss, but I certainly would see, like, the hard work and like that, the harder aspects of that, I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, I kind of very early on, even when I knew I wanted to work in mental health knew I wanted to be in private practice, because I kind of knew I wanted to, you know, kind of call the shots and have, you know, be self employed if, if at all possible. So, so I kind of had that, you know, modeled for me on both sides. And I think, you know, my family is very kind of, you know, my family of origin. My parents and my brother are very supportive of like, you know, hey, like, if you got a dream or something, go for it, you know, like, don't let life kind of pass you by without, you know, kind of pouring yourself into something creatively or something that you feel called to do. I mean, my dad is, you know, 75 in two weeks and up in like, you know, last month he was on a on a racetrack in Texas for the support races for the IndyCar Series and he loves like racing karts, so he's still at 75 out chasing his dream of being a racecar driver. So in my family, there's no shortage of hey, you know, if you want to make something happen, do everything in your power to try to make a go of it. So, you know, but also from my mom very much like the loving nurturing support side of that, too, so, hmm, it sounds pretty ideal. Yeah, thank you gave you that. That awesome start. That's great. Good luck. Dad, I hope he keeps doing it. I love that so you've got the book yet now, we I'm really excited about the book, I hope that, you know, there's something in there that speaks to girls and women, you know, at some level in some way, I just hope it's kind of inspirational and meaningful. Yeah, but the launch of it's been really exciting. Now I'm kind of in this place where I get to go and just kind of enjoy it being done, because it wasn't you forever, but also just enjoy being out in the world, right. So I'm kind of doing some local book events, or, you know, I may kind of plan some things for 2020, we're 2023 Sorry, where I, you know, I'm kind of partnering up partnering up with different female local businesses or different bookstores are different things just to kind of talk to people about the book and its contents and, you know, share a little bit more about it. You know, one of the things that's been really fun for me, and having done the book is this idea that I really want to kind of double down on, you know, through my clinical work helping girls and women specifically with their body image issues. So I'm kind of really have been kind of crafting and creating what I'm calling the body beautiful set series or sessions, and they're really just going to be kind of time limited therapy sessions with me, where we're going to set aside a certain number of sessions. And we're going to just kind of go through the nuts and bolts and nuggets of trying to live in the world with more positive body image. And some of that can kind of track off of the book, I've almost created kind of like a workbook or sort of PDF that, you know, if people are working with me in these series, they can kind of go through and even if they have an outside therapist, or they circle back to it later, you know that it just kind of reminds them of you know, some of this work that they want to do to have a better relationship to their bodies. And those sessions will include a photo shoot, which I'm super excited to do, and then we therapeutically can kind of walk through the images and what they're seeing and, and make sure that they can kind of resonate with something about it being beautiful or positive. And then in addition to that, I'm just really excited to get back into doing some more of my photography. You know, I think it's really important that we debunk the myth for women that we can like do it all simultaneously. I think it's really toxic for women to just kind of look and be like, Oh, look at her, she did the same, she did this thing. She's doing this, she's doing that, like she must be able to have this magic secret sauce that, you know, she can credit juggle all of these things. And, you know, the reality for me in the last, you know, now, you know, two over two years is that I had to backburner a lot of things in my life in order to still be a mom and still have my clinical practice and write this book. And so there are areas of my life that I've kind of missed out on a little bit that I'm really wanting to get back to. And my deep love of photography is one of those things, you know, my my kind of side hustle of photography business, you know, I was writing the book and I was like flexing all these new muscles as an author and writing this book and working on this project. And even though there's photography in the book, my actual photography, business muscles kind of atrophied a bit and so, you know, I really am excited to hopefully continue to grow my photography work I really want to specialize specifically in portraiture, celebrating anything having to do with female beauty and empowerment. So I call these sessions portrait her and they are just custom special photo shoots. It's really it could be like milestone, it could be maternity motherhood, you know, so the last year of high school here in America is like senior year so senior portraits are things that we do in the States, you know, when it's your last year of high school before you maybe go away to school or go to your job or whatever you're going to do so senior portraits, empowerment, you know, sessions, you know, so I just really want to kind of be able to focus in on my photography, I found myself drawn back into those photography books that first inspired me to write the books to begin with, I'm kind of playing around with you know, different cameras that I haven't had a chance to play with in a while different lenses and I just some really feeling hungry to be an artist in that way again, and kind of have a fresh body of work there. So I'm hoping that in 2023 that kind of takes back off and I can be creating more work there. But you know, it's always a juggling act. I mean, I definitely feel like you know, time is always what is in the Most short of supply for any and all of us, right so you know, I certainly wish I had more time to devote to you know, the creative artistic pursuits. Well, you never know. I'm sure we all do you awesome, so your website is life lens and love.com Yeah, awesome. And you're active on Instagram. That's where I found you. You're on. Are you on Facebook or any other of the social medias? I'm I am on Facebook. Not that well. On I have a I have a page on Facebook it primarily Mitch matriculates from my Instagram feed. I've not been very good about checking it on Facebook for quite some time now. But I've gotten off the off the chair off the rails on Facebook. It's just like, I'm like you, I link my Instagram. So anything that goes on Instagram is on Facebook. And then I just don't go on it. I just I've just really dropped off. I really have no desire to be on it to me. And I and honestly like sometimes it confuses me like I was on there after a long time and realizing that there were messages for me hidden in there for people that literally were very old. And I was like, I didn't even know where to find these. But they popped up and now I feel terrible that I never responded to these messages that people sent me on this separate messenger thing of Facebook that I somehow missed. So yeah, I've done that, too. I've done that too. It's NBA anyway, I could talk all about how much I don't love Facebook anymore. Me too. Me too. Me too. Instagram, like is making me kind of sad these days, you know, I feel like just this algorithm is really tricky. And I think there's a lot of people whose pages in work I love but I'm not seeing and you know, you really have to play the game. And I, you know, think if you if you want to jump on and make a real and be dancing and doing something fun and free spirited and I think that's amazing. But I just really want to see like photography, I want to see stills I want to see, you know, I want to see things that like I can kind of really, you know, kind of take away from and I don't know, I think it's kind of gotten a little too tick talky and I jump on Tik Tok, and it makes my head want to explode. And I don't know why he would want to spend any time there. It's, yeah, goldfish with a three second, you know, attention span. And so I just feel like, oh, I kind of hope that Instagram can kind of revert back to the original spirit of the app, because I really loved it. And it's early days. And now I feel like we're kind of getting in a space where I don't know how much longer I'll be, you know, trying to play that game. But we'll see. Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people. I say a lot of people, not a lot of people. A few people I've noticed lately have been getting completely off everything and just saying this is my email, but this go on my email list or visit my webpage. That's how I'm going to talk to people now. Because I think people are worried that if the like, we don't own our content that we put out. Like, if Instagram goes down, there goes all our stuff, you know. And so I think some people are starting to get a bit worried specifically with the way that Twitter has just been desecrated for one word, but knew who knows what could happen to anything at any time. So I don't know, if people get a bit worried. But you're also on YouTube, I saw you've got some content on YouTube as well, what sort of, to share on on YouTube? You know, it's that is an evolving bag of tricks. I don't know what's going on on YouTube. I still sometimes like why did I build this channel. But I know part of it was that I last year around the holidays, I felt like I was kind of seeing some just trends in my clinical practice that I thought a lot of people could really kind of relate to in terms of like different issues that come up with the holidays or stress at the holidays or whatever. And I just felt compelled to like make some short video clips or content and I just didn't really know like, where those should live and where to put those and, you know whether or not it's even helpful or meaningful so I just I've started to kind of say like, alright, if I ever do anything, you know, that is video related, certainly with a book launch, there were a few things that were, you know, kind of a few interviews that I did, and a few things with the publication of the book that were more video content, my publisher wanted me to kind of post a video of me like seeing the book for the first time. So that's on there, you know? And I thought, gosh, where does one go to post random video clips of themselves promoting their work in the world? I guess it's YouTube. Oh, you know, I was traveling with my kids, like, hey, Mom's got her sights set on being a YouTuber. A couple of subscribers. So if you're listening, and you are at all interested, you can join the other couple of people. But yeah, I don't know. You know, I mean, I very much relate to what you were saying that you were kind of hearing, I think I am in very many areas of my life feeling old to more of a just kind of an old school way of doing things. And technology's kind of shaping me a little bit in some ways, and kind of the modern pace. And the ways we're supposed to do everything is kind of grinding on me a little bit. Maybe it's just the time of year and coming to kind of coming off of this big year professionally. But I don't know what next year is going to hold for me in terms of how much I'm pumping all this stuff out there with the content and kind of trying to, you know, maybe have a presence on YouTube or social media, whatever we'll see. I mean, certainly with Instagram, I find it's just crazy. I do love the creative aspect of it. You know, I mean, I just feel like I share the music that I like, and I share the some of the stuff with different artists that I like and whatever else and some of it's super random, and I just feel like if anyone cares, they can check it out. Maybe, then I don't I don't know. But, you know, we'll see. We'll do we'll see. I mean, I certainly understand that bowl of you know, like, let's just kind of get back to like, meaningful relationships with the small circle of people and just kind of spend our time less on technology. Maybe. Yeah, see how that feels. They can get actually get bored again, like, remember what that feeling felt like? Like that? Yeah, fit nowadays. It feels like a rest. You're not bored. You're actually just having a rest from everything. That's overwhelming. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, if you can get that, that's awesome. We have to actively hunt for that. Right? I mean, I really look for pockets where we can create, we have to create that we won't get it right. That's so true. That is so true. Yeah, well, I'll put all the links, I'll put some hyperlinks in the show notes, so people can click away and find you and the link to purchase your book, which is pretty important. You're selling that through Amazon exclusively for Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. There's, there's a couple of other places you can find it in the States. I don't know if it would translate, you know, kind of, you know, outside of the states. It's like, yeah, there's a couple of other But Amazon is the best one to kind of go and find I feel like that's kind of the pipeline for all the books in the world is through their platform for just about everything, isn't it? Yeah, I haven't really, I have been really pleased that some of like, my local boutiques have picked it up and some other local businesses, which has been really nice to kind of see local places showing interest. It's good. I know. Some people have strong feelings about Amazon. Oh, that's great. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Gina. I've really loved meeting you and chatting with you. And thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences and all the best with everything I love. I love what you're doing. I love how you've combined these two completely different elements of your life into this. This book is amazing. And I love I love the ideas you've got coming up for the future. So yeah, thanks again. Thank you so much. And can I just say I am so in awe and inspired by your vocal talents and your singing and I love honestly I mean, I when I found out you were a musician, I was like, Oh, can I just tell you that that is like the the thing that I want to come back in my next life and be because I love music. I have a terrible singing voice. If I do anything it would be to sing. So I'm just like, I'm so in awe of what you do. And I Oh, thank you. That's lovely. We just say but I do have a belief a very long held belief that everybody can sing. We just not everyone knows how to use their instrument. So you never know if you're a good teacher. You might be right. That I don't know here's what I will tell you about that when my kids were babies like before they could even string together sentences you I would like because I always have music going I love to sing. I always had lullabies for them like, like hand like curated CD mixes of lullabies for like babies. Right? But But I would be in the car and I would be singing and they would quit like they were strapped in their little car seats. They couldn't even say sentences, but they will be like, Mommy, No, mommy, stop. Mommy, no. Mommy stop. So I did feel like you know, out of the mouth of babes confirmation that I am not a vocal talent. I got one the other day. I was singing along to a song and my seven year old said Ma'am, can you stop singing? You're wrecking the song. I pick your pardon. I said yes. Sure, mate. No worries. Right, right. I know. Yes. There's nothing honest. Yes. Why would she want about two and I love that you're doing this because I think really, you know, just introducing women to things that other women are doing and you know, just everyone kind of I think we learn through stories and relating. Absolutely no, and I think it's so powerful. I just love that you're doing this. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for coming on. That's my always think people thank me, but I got to thank you because you're the people that make it without you guys. There wouldn't be a podcast. Right. Thank you. Good on you. Thanks so much. I've had I've had lovely time to