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Amy Siegfried US podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep56 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Amy Siegfried, a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa Oklahoma, USA and a mother of 1 - AKA The Tiny Human. Originally from Las Vegas, Amy’s athletic career was short-lived, but she fell in love with the world of sports. That learned love for sports came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports, working as an intern in a Major League Baseball Club. She’s lived internationally, which provides her with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought, as women, we are constantly hurdling unrealistic expectations, but what if we could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy finally founded her company Last Night's Game with her brother. It was born out the idea of how do you go to work in a that male dominated world and converse in sports, Not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like foods, travel, celebrity gossip and music associated with significant sporting events. Think, the Super Bowl Half Time show, WAGS, sports fashions and off the field goings on. They launched their email publication and website first, then 4 years later the podcast Sports Curious was born. They believe in short and sweet, emails are about a 3-4 minute read, and podcasts max of 5 minutes, supplying interesting tid bits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing, partnerships and public relations and she has also presented a TedX speech . Today we chat about women supporting each other, celebrating your wins, and having each other's back rather than judging each other. Last Night's Game on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Watch Hoda Kotb's induction speech Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Amy Siegfried. Amy is a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa, USA. And as a mom of one originally from Las Vegas. Amy's athletic career was short lived, but she fell in love with the world of sport. That learn to love for sport came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports working as an intern in a major league baseball club. She's lived internationally, which provides him with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought as women were constantly hurdling, unrealistic expectations. But what if she could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy founded her company last night's game with her brother. It was born out of the idea of how do you go to work in a male dominated world and converse in sports, not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like food, travel, celebrity gossip, and music associated with significant sporting events. Think the Superbowl halftime show WAGs sports fashions and the off field goings ons. They launched their email, publication and website first then four years later, the podcast entitled sports curious was born. They believe in short and sweet emails are about three to four minute read and podcasts and maximum of five minutes supplying interesting tidbits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing partnerships and public relations. And she's also presented a TEDx speech. Music used in today's episode is from LM Joe, an Australian New Age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to the podcast. Amy. It's a real pleasure to meet you and to have you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So we're about to you at the moment. You're in the US. Yes, I am in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Oklahoma. For those who are not familiar, I just write about as I like to call it Texas, the Texas hat. So just because there's like a cowboy hat to Texas. That's a cool way of describing it. Right. Right. Well, I'm from Las Vegas, and most people have heard of Las Vegas. So from Yeah, so you're originally from Las Vegas. So you've lived in other places around the world to whereabouts have you? Have you been? We Well, I've lived across the couple places in the US obviously from he lived in Phoenix. And we lived in Singapore and now we live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah, that'd be pretty exciting living in Singapore. It was a it was a really exciting and someone actually asked me yesterday if I missed it, and I said, Yes. There's certainly pluses and minuses to everything being 26 hours of flying time away from your family is a little far but there's so many wonderful things. And I said to someone, like what do you miss my, the food and the diversity? I just love the mix of people and, and that's what I really learned to appreciate. And I think the more that I've traveled, the more I've understood I understand that. Basically everyone's the same we all want the same few things for ourselves for our families, and its safety, its food, and you know, we want to be happy to have good health and so I mean, that's truly what we all want and the more you travel the smaller the world becomes. Because that same it's the same inner woven vein through no matter where you live. what language you speak. Yeah, yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Like because often we say oh, we're all so different and blah blah But yeah, when it comes down to it we all we all have our needs our basic human needs for survival. Yeah, right. That's really all I mean, when it comes down to it when when all things hit the fan like that's all you really need in the in the, in the in the big pictures and so on. Think that's just really interesting part of everyone bonds over food and different things, and maybe different food and maybe different drink. But everybody bonds over food and different things. So it's really kind of fun. And that was one big thing. We traveled a lot. We always had cooking classes. Ah, that was a great way to get into learning just local food and local currency cultures. And why this ingredient versus that? And so it's kind of interesting. And like, yeah, what's important? What do they value? Why do they use what they use? And? Yeah, that's really cool. I love that insert. So you are a podcaster, amongst other things, I know you do a lot of different things. But tell us about your podcast, because it's really cool. You're very kind. Thank you. So I created a company called last night's game I brothers, also my co founder. And I'll give you a quick synopsis of it. But it was born out of the idea. I used to work in major baseball, I worked for the Arizona tax. And I had all these girlfriends who knew nothing about the world of sports. And we were in our early 20s. And I thought how do you go to work in a male dominated industry of manufacturing, or law or whatever that might be? And not have even just a baseline of what's happening? You'd have no idea. It's some big, maybe the Olympics, they might know. But I mean, it's one of those where they don't have and if there's a scoop, the Superbowl or whatever that might be. So how do you go in the office and not have just that baseline? And so I called my brother who was in high school at the time, in turn. So I was making 525 an hour. And, you know, okay, we need to figure out how we teach our friends about sort of the interesting side of sports, the not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. The interesting things about sports, why? Kind of like cooking, like, Why do you have this ingredient versus this ingredient? And, and so he was like, that's a really great idea. And me, but I'm in high school and you work 80 hours a week. So no. And so that was 14 years before we started last night's game. And when we were moving back from Singapore, I realized that no one was hiring because it was Thanksgiving in the US, and no one really hires between Thanksgiving and New Years. And so we I sort of said, Okay, well, I have about a month and a half to sort of let's give this a shot. And so we started that, and it was ugly. In the beginning. You know, we were it was not a pretty product by any stretch of the imagination. And so we rolled that out. And about, probably four years after we rolled out our email, I'll try weekly email publication and our website, we rolled out a podcast and the way we do our email publication, as well as our podcast is we believe in short and sweet. Emails are about a three minute read, you can click for more information if you want it, but just briefly, the headlines if you'd like. And then the podcast is about five minutes. And we cover sort of what's happening in the world of sports at this time. Typically, it's around that something like a five things to know about. We just did five things about the Masters was just last week, I want to talk about major league baseball season. And we'll do stuff about Earth Day, actually, this week on the podcast. And so we we sort of tried to cover things that are interesting that you might be able to start a conversation with someone who was a sports person. And well, the way I always see sports, and I use it myself this way is it's a great foray into conversation. But it also has this great plethora of roads out of the sports conversation, you can talk about food, you can talk about travel, maybe you want to tweak and fashion, celebrity gossip, I mean, you can really weave it all in together. And so that's how we kind of we talk about sports, and that's how we cover them. And because no one no one's interested in, you know, the stats, and this and that they really want to know the stories. And that's how we all talk, right? We talk about the stories of our travels or whatever that might be. So our kids, whatever that might be. So that's kind of how we cover sports. Something makes it interesting, huh? No, I love that because you're right, it can be incredibly intimidating because it isn't, it's a man's world. It you know, we're trying to make it better. And over here in Australia, we have the women's football, the AFL football league, and we have women's soccer and we have women's cricket. But, you know, we're always seen as like the poor cousin of the men's game, which is unfortunate. So in that it can feel very daunting to try and converse. Enter a sports world because you feel like you're going to be judged because you're right to start with unless you know what you're talking about. So your episodes they're short, sweet to the point how often do you bring out your episodes? Where every week? Yeah, every once in a while we'll roll out a bonus episode on something. But yes, every week so it's been it's been fun. It's just in my whole theory is or email publication. It is Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. And the podcast is once a week because I feel like if you're truly not in the ESPN Sports World, then you are. You're trying to digest what you read. And I think sometimes there's so much information coming out of you. So if you can have a day or two to digest what you read in your email, or a day or two or week to listen to that podcast, even though it's short, it gives you a chance to process and then execute it in your conversations. That's it, isn't it? You can put it put into practice test it out. Exactly. That's exactly give it a whirl Yeah. I want to ask you, what was it like being a woman working in that bus baseball environment. It was interesting. Now there my now I worked in the Community Relations Department in the foundation. So we were female, heavy in that department. But it was definitely different. It was definitely interesting, because it truly is a man's world. And you kind of have to get in there. And I probably blame them for my mouth, spews four letter words, and some of those other things. But it's it's definitely, it's an adjustment. And it's it's really interesting because you are in it even more. So in a man's world, you're in a world of men, where a lot of them were always told how great they were always built up. Because there are these athletes, there are these celebrities, if you will. And I will tell you 99.9% of them are fantastic. Their dads, their brothers, their husbands, they're great men. And so that is I mean, I don't want to give anybody a bad, a bad reputation at all. But it was definitely one of those things that you had to be mindful as a woman of what you were doing, where you were, who you were with. And so that's kind of just one of those things that you really do have to, you know, and stand your own ground when it came to things where they maybe things maybe got uncomfortable. There were comments you made. I got really good at just sort of rushing off and giving a hard time and going alright, well move along here type of thing. So it's kind of it's funny how you just, it's a life skill, though. You know, when I met my husband, my father in law has that personality where he always tries to make comments or funny things. He always tries to like get under your skin and not in like a mean way. But he wants to get your reaction. Yeah. And so I had that skill from the My Work in baseball that really turned into a benefit of giving my shit my short, witty comebacks to him where I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, well, let me get you on this one. Yeah. So yeah, it's definitely likes going out, I would just say it's one of those things that if as long as you, you respected yourself, you really were You were fine. You really had to push for what you wanted, though. And for who maybe career jobs because there were certain jobs that women just didn't do. And we have our first there's a woman who's Alyson Aiken, who's the AI. She's about a year and a half into her career as a baseball coach for Major League Baseball team. And she's the first woman to coach on the field. She's an assistant baseball coach for the San Francisco Giants. And so it's neat to see you know, baseball, we have an in football, we have quite an American football, we have quite a few female coaches, not head coaches. But they're factored in there in one way or another. So it's nice to see that these women are pushing through that boundary and saying, I don't care that this is a locker room situation. I'm a good coach, I'm really good at what I do. I'm the best you can hire. Forget that. I'm a woman. I'm the best that that's out there. And so it has been really neat and really motivating to see women step up into those roles. And and we talked a little bit about earlier about women in sports, but it's been really neat. So we have the the March Madness college basketball tournament that happens here in the US, the men's tournament in the women's tournament, and it's a whole bracket single elimination that drives the country crazy for a month, and just solid basketball. And this year, they've really built up the women's tournament. And the numbers have gone through the roof because people are watching because great basketball, great sport. They're very talented. And so that is really neat for us as a company that covers sports. You know, we cover the headlines. And so sometimes that is maybe mostly American football versus throwing in something, but it's mostly going to be men's sports. That's what people are talking about. But I really love turning on ESPN here and having the break the first story of Sports Center, a women's sports story. And that to me is really cool because where we've tried to we definitely I will say that definitely because we're women women lead that I steer the conversation toward women's sports where I can So it's really neat to not have to steer it because it's all of a sudden, it's already missing on its own. And that is a really cool thing to see even in. We've been around for about six years. And so it's been really nice to see how that has worked in covering sports in general. You know, with the beginning, it was, let's talk about so and so's wife or girlfriend. And now it's turned into Rockstar was out there taking, taking names, doing what she does best. And that's really cool, huh? Yeah, that would that would be a really interesting part of what you're doing is being able to watch that evolution. And let's hope it continues to go. I hope so, too. And I think that leaves a lot of faith and motivation for women's sports in other countries. I mean, I look we're we're heading to Australia for the Women's World Cup next year. Yeah. Right. And so we have a dear friend who lives in Perth, so we're gonna go visit him and go to some games with our kiddos. And I look forward to if it's the right season. What else can we fit in there? What else can we see? And, you know, learning for me, he also did a our friend Toby. So shout out to you, Toby. Did a whole write up for us on rugby. Yes, that's a whole thing that we're slowly with. We've kind of grown more lacrosse than rugby. But it's really a fun sport that people my brother played rugby in college. And so it's neat to learn so much about and it's fun to, for us to bring a different perspective on the world. And sports just joins, they join together. And so it's really neat to be able to share some of those insights into other sports that maybe are more much more popular in other countries. Absolutely, yeah. And then I think the closest we get to yours, your American football is obviously Super Bowl. That is like they put it on Morning, probably like 10 o'clock in the morning. And of course everyone wants to see who's like the halftime show is like the biggest thing in the world. But that in itself, you know, connects people even though a lot of us don't get what's happening, but they were involved in the spectacle, you know, they they you get caught up in the whole atmosphere of it and you can sort of, you know, relate to some aspect of it to allow you to join in and and have fun with it, I guess even if it is just the halftime show. Right? That's I think that's why Super Bowl is just our favorite because it does take into account the game itself and that's interesting because you can tell stories about the players but there's so much that happens around the Superbowl and that's, you know, once again, going back to food and I think I'm gonna screw up the numbers. I think it's like 6 billion chicken wings are eaten in the US on Super Bowl Sunday. It's obscene. And it's just so it's so neat to look at the commercials and all the other things that we see in the last Super Bowl was in LA as you have this huge celebrity presence and that's just a really like that is a perfect storm for someone like last night's game because we love the non sporting side of that and that really get does give everyone something to talk about. Yeah, that's it's like, yeah, he cares about the game but what was what a singer seeing and what were they aware about the game? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your family. You mentioned the kids, you're gonna bring them out to Australia to come to the to the soccer we call soccer Night Football. What do you call over there? Do you call it soccer or football? We call it soccer. Ecosa. Yeah, we call it soccer. And then sometimes we call it football. Depending if the if the Europeans are around it gets cold. Let's take a fusing because we've got AFL out like Australian rules football. And then we've also got Rugby League, and we've got rugby union. So there's like four different footballs. So the black and white one, that's the one we're going with. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So I have a little munchkin and he is three and a half. I affectionately refer to him as the tiny human. And, you know, he's just he's been trying to break in here for the past few minutes. And he's a he's a great little dude. And so we'll bring him on his first big trip to Australia and I think we're taking him to Singapore to figured why we're in Perth. You might as well take the five hour flight north. Oh, yeah, go check out go back to Singapore because we haven't been back since. Since we moved in 2015. So I'm really looking forward to that and it can be neat. I love I love showing him. Women who could do great things in sports and I have this big this big thought process. sense of women really need to be able to teach their children or coach their kids sports teams. And because I think that's important for them to see leadership in all facets, you know, they see they see us lead in the home, probably work or whatever else we might do. But that's one spot where you could also lead and I mean, I'm not going to coach high school football, because I know nothing about what football strategy. But you know, it's, it's really interesting, too. We're on where he's playing in his first soccer team share, and he's three and a half. And, I mean, he's mostly about digging holes in the dirt, and crying on the sideline and snacks, which is fine. All fine. We're there we try. Well, we tried to get him to go into the game. But um, you know, it's like that. So next year, I'm going to put my hand up and say, How can I? How can I help because I think it's important for them to see that leadership and, and not just the moms coaching the girls teams, but the moms coaching the boys teams. And so I think that's just, you know, it's one more step of leadership where we continue to show our children how we can lead. And when they're that little, it's, it's the time commitment is much different than obviously when they're much, much older. But I just I feel like that's just another way to, can you just show up and continue to show we're just as worthy as anybody else to lead a team, and to continue to motivate a group. So I don't know. I don't know, I can't motivate my own child to get on the field. So I'm not sure how that works for everybody else. But I can relate to that story about your son is my little fella. He's now 14. He here, like Australia is a big sporting country like clear sport culture, especially in a country town. Yeah, you know, winter is footy and netball, and summer is tennis, and cricket. Like that's it. And for a child, that's not a massive leap, interested in sport that's really challenging. And we learned pretty early on that Alex wasn't going to be a traditional sports player. We tried to get him to play soccer. And I remember he just used to run around, there was a little boy, he just used to run around with him. And they'd just be off down the end of the page, doing whatever else is concentrating really hard and take it really seriously and then just like, rolling around. Well, like, Okay, this is our Sunday morning. So yeah. So what does he do? What did he what kind of activities did he get into, he ended up he played baseball for a while, actually. Okay. And he really enjoyed that, because we worked out that he liked things that changed often. And okay, everybody got a turn, because the thing with soccer, it's unless you're very good, you're not going to get near that ball. So I think he worked out pretty quick that he wasn't at the level that perhaps some other kids were and then he was getting left out. So that led to the messing around sort of thing. But, you know, baseball is awesome, everyone lines up, everyone gets a bat, it changes quick, as often they'll get out, you know, three, three year out, and off, they go. And then you run out into the field for a while and you mess around out there for a bit and they become daisies. And so that was was perfect for him. He did that for I think probably three seasons. And now he's he's doing some music and some other things. But yeah, it was really except for you with creativity. Oh, it was just really good. My other son's gonna be completely different. It's like, we're trying to actually just wait till he gets a bit older because he will do anything. So we're sort of don't want to start just driving him around to everything. Be careful what you wish for. Yes. Yeah, he's gonna I think he will take that traditional route. But yeah, I don't know. It's an as a country town in Australia, baseball hasn't been a massive thing. You know, certainly they have the teams in, in the cities. But, you know, games like that are awesome. And I had no exposure to baseball growing up. So that was a real learning curve, for me working out how the game actually flowed. And was that was that? I don't know, the foul balls used to get me all the time. Like, why are they trying to catch it? And so they were found like, ah, you know, it's it's a learn and and that's I think that's the most interesting thing about sports is you can learning something new and like, it's like cricket. I knew nothing about cricket minus, you have the bowler and a couple of different things. And there's tiebreaks that I mean, I'm here for yes, we have. I mean, I'm here for that. It's just so funny. It's like wait, because Matt, you go to a sporting event that can last for five days, but And so but it's so neat to to continue to evolve and learn and when you can find a team or someone to get on board with so when we moved to Singapore, they have an F Formula One race there. We'd never watched Formula One. I'm a daughter of a mechanic and car guy and so I would why NASCAR and we watch all the race car stuff. Yeah, but I've never watched Formula One. And we thought, Well, my husband thought, well, we need to kind of learn this because it's happening like right in front of our house. And so it was so fun. Because once you get into it, and you start paying attention, you start learning all the little quirks, you start learning all the little things and the different characters, right, have different athletes. And so it's I wish that some of those sports were more readily available for us to see in the US. And because I do think there's just such a cool opportunity to learn and to dive in. And if you ever need a one on one on any sports, just holler because I have it. So we have a we have a bunch of them on our website, because it is it's sports, gambling, sports, betting and those kinds of things that make the game more fun or might get you involved somehow. And so it's how you make it. Once again, going back to how do you make it relatable? Yeah. interested? Just a little bit. Yep. Now I love that. Two things are just thought of when we're talking about that. I love Formula One. And we had our Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne, just last weekend, which was just so great. That I've had a friend I worked with who was watching drive to survive on Netflix, the show about the whole thing, which apparently isn't in Perth isn't perfectly true. Apparently, there's some drivers who have said that they, you know, change the plot slightly. We I mean, it's going to be interesting for television, I can understand that. Right, exactly. But since she was watching that, now, she's really interested in watching them in real life. So that is really cool. I've heard from quite a few people, actually. Yeah, and you're right, like the characters like it's literally like you have the goodie in the battery. And it can be set up any way you like to take it. But this is pretty exciting. I like I'm liking where this is going. But also what you said about over the years, like I'm a big course racing fan. And a lot of the races you'll go to around here they have a have the fashions on the field where you can get dressed up and win prizes and stuff. And I, a lot of people have come to the races with me because they want to dress up. And then when they get there, then I try and explain to them how to put a bed on or you know how to follow this particular trainer or like pick them out by the colors or, you know, you go down to the stalls and see the horses and but that's the thing that what that's what brings them in, and then they can, you know, get involved in whatever way they want. That's exactly it. Yeah, it's that little hook, just like your son. And he, once he realized that you need something that changed a little more rapidly. That got him involved. And so that's once you get that little hook, then you start to develop all that around it. And it is really neat. And it's neat to see how they've they've started. I mean, now that you have all these different TV streaming platforms that they're they're taking these stories like drive to survive and different things that they're making them interesting, where you're getting a little bit more of the behind the scenes and the human interest story of a sport versus just the stuff you see on the actual game. Yeah. And I think that's as a woman, I think it's you need to make connections with people. I think like that's what I mean. That's what certainly draws me to Formula One. Like I love hearing the drivers what they're thinking and they do have a lot of access to people these days, like people are very generous with their time. And I love watching them talk about Formula One again, but before a race didn't have me they do have the Sky News in the sky in the UK have the the rights for and they do this pit, the pit lane walk and they will walk through the actual crowd of all the drivers are actually on the grid, they're actually ready to drive. And then we'll walk through and chat to like maybe the race director or the chief engineer, whatever, and people are just, they'll just chat for like two or three seconds and off they go. And the access to people is incredible these days, which is amazing. And then like you get to know the race directors like people love toto like they people have their favorite people that they go for because they've made a connection with a person. So they go for that chain, you know. So I think that's a massive part and that's the thing that I think for so long, having been in charge and I'm putting that in inverted commas air quotes of sport only gave it was only sort of interesting from one perspective, it was interesting from what was on the field or what was on the track or whatever. But you get women involved in you get the behind the scenes and you find out that Christian Horner is married to one of the Spice Girls you know, you find out all this stuff that you wouldn't have men because men don't care about but as women we're like interested in people. So we bring so much to the sporting world. That's a really and I think that is a truly that that gives you a buy in if you will to a team or a driver because the more you I mean that's really think about it when you go to a sporting event. As a kid if you get a t shirt or you catch a ball or you get an autograph or whatever you have any sort of interaction with that team besides just showing up and eating up you know pretzel or some popcorn, it continues to get that buy in right now you have an affinity, you feel like you have an affiliation to that team. And so the more that we can buy into really learning to love a team and whoever that might be, whether it's an athlete or the story behind a team, I think it's so important. I mean, it truly is, it goes into that whole branding perspective, right of the more you can tell your story, and direct the conversation you want it to be, the more you're going to get people to buy in and get excited about it. So I think it's, I think it's awesome. And you're seeing a little bit of that here. There's still some sports that are US sports are a bit resistant to that. But you're for the most part, you're seeing a lot of them who are progressive, saying, all right, sure. Let's put a microphone on the guy and you know, in the outfield, or whatever, our preseason covered a preseason training on HBO. And so it's been it's it's neat to see. And, you know, I always talk about sports and the way I kind of rationalized because we first started last night's game, people were like, oh, it's sports for dummies and like, Well, no, because nobody's a dummy. Everyone's smart at their own thing. And so I think to me, I look at that and say, Okay, this is just another tool in your tool belt, you know, we watch the news to have information about what's going on in the world. And we whatever we're into, we might study or craft or follow people on Instagram and learn different things. And this is just one more tool in our tool belt to be successful. And I think that, to me, that's walking into a conversation being able to pull from a couple of different hats that I might have, and say, Okay, I'm talking to this guy here from Texas, I bet I could talk to him about, I don't want to talk to him about politics, because that's just messy. But you know, I could probably talk to about football, because it's football season, whatever that might be. And so it's just having that extra armor, to be able to kind of conversation, that extra tool to be able to shift a conversation into what is comfortable for you, allows you to create that someone, and hopefully a lasting relationship. Hmm, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Not? I love it. I think it's awesome. And you're right. It's not saying it for Dummies, you're not? You're not like teaching people the rules of something like you're actually you're like you said, you're relating it to, to an aspect of real life, I suppose. And so then it allows you to bring it into life without, you know, you're not memorizing stats or that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah, it's a really, what's the word? I can't think of what the word I was thinking of. But anyway, that word, this is like that. Your son is three and a half. So how do you find the time to do all this stuff? How does it work? Well, it definitely helped. So I went back to school to get my, my MBA when he was one and a half. And that happened to be about three months before everything locked down for COVID. So that was a whole perspective shift. I already knew my life was going to be busy. And busier, if you will. And so it's kind of funny how, you know, the reason I did that is I love to continue to learn, I love to continue to evolve. And I was talking to a friend who had earned her master's. And she's like, do it now. Because when they're seven or eight, you're missing birthday parties, you're missing baseball games, and they know you're gone at one and a half, they don't know you're gone. And so that was a huge, I think it took me as if people know, when you become a parent, whatever you did before, I don't know, you know, you're like you could get that everything done in two and half the time because you're just you have to consolidate your time and your work effort. And so I would say that I've just learned to work at this little more of an elevated perspective and an elevated pace. And so, you know, it's it's also for me, it's trying to figure out how to streamline things. That's a big piece of what we do because it's my brother and I and he works halftime. He's sort of my sports. He's my information cultivator. He's the one bringing in the information. Given that to me, I write it we handle all the writing I do all the editing for the podcast, social all the things. For me, it's I feel like that sorry, this is a very roundabout way to answer your question. No, no, go for it. But it It's streamlining work. And that is truly streamlining it to make sure I can get done. When I get done in my, my timeframe I've given myself, but also giving myself a little bit of a break. And that's something I didn't do during school that I've had to reteach myself is, you know, I get up early I work usually before he wakes up, I get everybody out the door that I work in, during the day, and then I pick him up from school about five o'clock. And somewhere in there, I try to get in a workout just to keep my sanity. And then we do dinner. And some days I go back to work after bedtime. And some days I don't. And that's one thing, like I said, I had to kind of retrain my brain because after, during school, after bedtime, I would get to my computer and do schoolwork, probably till midnight, one o'clock, and then get back up again at five o'clock and go all over again. And so I actually found that I'm more productive. When I give myself a break at night, I give myself time to decompress, and start over in the morning, I feel so much more mentally refreshed, I sleep better because I'm not closing my laptop at 1030 and trying to go to bed at 1045. And so it's it's it's a tough lesson to learn. But I've just learned to kind of reprioritize things and I use a project management software called Asana. And that's how I keep track of everything because it allows me to prioritize, but also see that full list that I can prioritize move things around as we need to. And so that is, to me is really important. And I'm trying to make my family a priority to and myself a priority because I believe that, you know, you truly need to put at the airplane you need put your oxygen mask on first, because if you can't breathe, nobody else is going to be able to do that. So I really do try to factor in those little things that might be a 30 minute workout. And sometimes that's in the morning, sometimes it's in lunch over the lunch hour, sometimes it's, you know what I've got, I'm going to pick them up from school sweaty, because I've just jumped I it is what it is, that keeps my sanity. And so I'm working from home too, that's any way you can get a break to just take a 10 minute walk outside around the neighborhood and come back. And especially on those big writing days where I'm trying to create a lot of content, that break is just huge. And so it's really funny to say I do less to do more. But I've kind of found attempted to find this happy medium of continuing to fuel myself and allow myself to grow, while also busting my butt while I am in front of my computer. That's that's really valuable. I think because a lot of I think there's been this culture, for a while of just going hard getting it done, you know, this hustle, I'm putting that in air quotes again, you know, you've just got to keep going and keep going and get it all done. And then at the expense of what you know, your relationships, your health, you know, everything falls apart. So it's awesome to hear that you've got that, that sort of balance that works for you. Because I'm just reminded of this, you know, when you sit, you're scrolling Instagram, and you see things come up and you just pause for a moment, then you keep going. There was there was one the other day about, we've started to see rest as well, we have been seeing rest as a reward, rather than a thing that's actually required to, to keep us sane, to keep us healthy to increase productivity. So I feel like there's, there's another little shift going on, where people are saying, hang on a minute, this isn't sustainable. We can't, we can't keep doing this. Right. And when when we're working from home, there's no separation between work and home at that point. So you might change rooms, but you're still in the same scenario. And so, you know, for for fitting for all of us it you've got to find that, that that space to just step away. And that's kind of what I've started doing at work too though, when when I first started working from home full time, you know, I'd get up and do the dishes or I'd throw it a little laundry or something like that. Yeah, now I've just said no laundry happens on Saturday. You need something watch beforehand, throw it in like it can sit there or you watch it yourself. But it's one of those where I'm not distracting myself with other tasks. Yeah, try not to distract myself with that it's focusing on when I'm at work I try to just do it like I'm at an office like I'm at work I'm working. Yeah, and so that way I'm not the dishes get done at the end of the day or when I make lunch or whatever that might be so yes, trying to define those little compartmentalize the best we can which I know that's really not our best skill as women. Yeah, but I think it's really really good what you're saying about like setting those boundaries even though we are at home and doesn't mean we have to be in like mum mode and you know, set the set the washing machine Shane and quickly go hang it out. Because it's a nice day, you know? Right. Like, yeah, you're right, keeping that the cup compartmental I can't say that we get to compartmentalize one, it's hard. I mean, you're creative as well. I mean, it's when you're in a creative space, you really do have to focus. Because if you start to think, oh, the dishes are dirty, oh, I just heard the dishwasher go off, I'll go empty that you can't you really, I mean, I work in house by myself, but I still put my headphones in. Because it just blocks out all that ancillary noise and allows me to focus because I can't write if I'm hearing the garbage truck drive by and all those things. And so it's when sometimes you just when you're in that creative headspace, you need to just just check the world out the best way you can. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's cool. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. One of the lovely topics I love to talk about with all my moms is mom guilt. And I realized that it comes in all forms, or it may not come at all. And that's great. That's one of the great things about talking about it. So what's your thoughts on mommy guilt? Amy? I think it I think it is alive and well, at least in my house. And I have, I mean, it ranges from you just lose your patience with them. And you snap and you're like, Okay, that was probably not the best move by me. But also, you were being really horrible. And I can't take it anymore to the fact that sometimes you have to say, Hey, bud, I gotta finish this, this needs to be done for work. When I'm done, I'll come play with you, whatever that might be insert activity here. And it's, but it's alive. And well. And it's really interesting. So I do a lot of chats on my Instagram stories. And I talk a little about the mom guilt and how that is tough on days when it snows it's a snow day and you're stuck at home with your kid. And they've watched three movies by 2pm. And that's it is what it is. I mean, I think we're all fine. We've probably done that somewhere along in our lives. But that that mom guilt is alive and well. And I, I've had a couple of people say, Well, you're just imagining mom guilt, it doesn't need to exist. My kids watch TV today, too. And I didn't feel bad about it. Michael, that congratulations to you. I'm really that is fantastic that that's how you can run your household. And that's how you feel. That's, that's fine. This is how I feel. And you're right that it does, you don't do give me a dose of confidence to say that I need to be easier on myself, I appreciate that. But I think that's the interesting part of being a mom. And you know, my mom, my mom, I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she went since I was little till now because a lot of the, you know, from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with the mixer and the whole nine yards and like, this is how mom does them. This is how grandma doesn't. And they're both okay. Yeah. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of the things and I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much. us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and whatever that might be. Or, you know, we see people on Instagram who, you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take to the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like, how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do. And what we just have to let go. And like when I was in school, we take away a lot because it was like, Okay, well we have peanut butter and jelly, pancakes, eggs, or we can go down the street and get a salad and that's just, that's just where we live. We lived for two years because, you know, it was that was what we had time for. And that's just how sometimes that works. And we're all going to be okay for it. You know, I joke that I never ate a blueberry that was not in a muffin until I went to college. And I still do are not okay, I varies now it's fine. I'm a reasonably healthy human. You know, it's it's one of those where we all have to just give ourselves a little bit of a break. And I don't know, what is What's your perspective on mom guilt? Because I think you said everyone's take is different. I hate it, I wish it would never existed. Because I think that I feel like I get a bit, I start to get a bit passionate about things. I'll try and curtail myself, but I feel like it's an excuse. For mums to be bashed on, basically, I feel like, I mean, I feel like it has its place in some regards. Like, it's almost like a little voice that might help you decide what's important to you, or how you're tracking in that time, like, like, if, if I don't call it the devil on your shoulder, like the little voice in your ear that might say, now, you know, you've been out four times this week, you probably should be home tonight. But then the other side says, well, actually, you've got a show on at the moment. So you rehearsing for it. So this is important to you. So you go, okay, that's fine. But then another time, the voice might go, Well, actually, you haven't put your child to bed this week, because you've been out going to the movies or catching up with friends. And then you go, Oh, actually, that's true. Maybe I should slow down a bit, you know. So situations or whatever, every, everyone's different in different things, and which is awesome. But I feel like it's an excuse for mums to get a bad deal or the roar end of the deal. It's like, you are allowed to do things for yourself. And it's very important that you do things for yourself. And it's up to you and your family to work out. Where that line is, I suppose of what's manageable for you guys, I think and that you write when you look at social media, I feel like it's, it's it's an opportunity to compare, and to feel judged, and to beat in to judge others. Because I feel like as moms, we're really, we're really bad at judging, like we judge each other. It's I'm not talking about, you know, just people that don't have children, judge us we judge each other. So that'd be good if we stopped doing that. But yeah, we compare ourselves a lot. And we've got to remember that the lives that we see on Instagram are generally a very curated version of that person's life. Absolutely. So we everyone has a different, you know, level of support lives in a different part of the world has a different cultural background, everyone has different values of what's important to them and different styles of mothering. So no, two of us are exactly the same. So we can't compare ourselves, you know? No, to an excellent perspective, really, truly. Yeah, I think it just does more more harm than good. It really does. And it makes no one feel any better. Right? I just I it always sticks in my mind when, when Roy was little he was I really didn't take any time to stop working. But I mean, I had a C section at 7pm, because I was in labor for 24 hours in a C section at 7pm. My mom stayed with me that night, because my husband had to be at a meeting with customers the next morning. And so you know, what I saw, we had a woman come in and help us help me at night for like three nights a week, just so I could sleep. Because he did it, he did not sleep at all, he was a crazy little human. But I had one of my friends from from back in Phoenix, say to me, must be really nice to have all this help. And I said, Well, you know, in all fairness, I don't have any family help. And my husband's gone 50 to 60% of the time. So I need a break. I can't I can't do it all. And so like, I appreciate you dropping that judgment on me. But I don't have any lot of a ton of support. So I have to pay for my support. So that's just, that's what I'm, that's the situation I'm in. And I would love to have a husband who is home all the time to also help and have my mom around the corner. But that just wasn't feasible. And so you're right, though, as we step back and look at what everyone does, and how we handle all the things we need to appreciate and understand that there are a lot of other pieces that we don't, that we don't see. And you know, I I say I joke that it might your children's school might be the same way we're not allowed to have. We're no longer allowed to have homemade treats brought in. So those are things we get homemade treats. Yeah. So they ought to be individually packaged and from from an external source. Yep, that is the best thing that's ever happened to me in my life. Because I'd be making the sad light blue frosting cookies. I mean, it's like the best thing that's ever happened to me because, you know, my mom talks all about how she's a working mom who had two kids in both in activities and my dad went to work at 530 in the morning and came home at seven o'clock. And she was doing homework and all the things and how it will be some sort of something and she had to make something. She was like okay, well, we're in my spare time. You know, she shows up my mom's A Fabulous Baker. But, you know, she shows up with some cookies or something and someone else shows up with his Barbie Kassala cake. She's like, well, here's here's my sad cookies, you know. And where she said it's just it, things have shifted so much. And there's certain things that have, she also didn't have Amazon were food grocery delivery. That might be the only reason I survived with a newborn was Amazon delivery because I would never remember to order diapers till 2am When you're sitting in the chair and going, oh, please just go to sleep and crap or out of diapers has changed for the better. And so we're just there, there are definitely things that make it a little bit better. So there's that when you said before you compared like that your son can go with your mom and do some baking. I feel like it's something we forget as mums, it's really important that when we're not with our children, if he's with your mum, that's a really important thing for him to be doing to, you know, we can't give them everything. And this might even sound like I'm trying to justify having other people look after my children. But it's, it's really important for them to create relationships that don't involve us. Absolutely. So good for for that other person to to have that relationship with your child. It is and it's hard, it's really hard to sometimes, and I don't know about your boys, but mine is like would be glued to my hip all day, every day. If he could be he just like always wants to be with mom, which I, I appreciate it. And one day, he's going to be 15 and want nothing to do with me, I'm going to go fishing with dad or something. But I do think I think about the times that I value where I spent time with my my grandparents and how much fun I had watching The Golden Girls and putting on a face mask with my grandma who took her dentures out in the teeth. And we sat at a great old time. And that was, I think that is so important. And I think that gives them a different perspective to you know, it's, it gives them something to come back and talk about because there are going to be things that grandmas and grandpas say or have a different perspective on or thinking in a different way. And it's a good thing to talk about, like what we what we do as a family versus all the things but it's true everyone gives everyone brings a different value to their life. And just like we can't, we can't do it all. As individuals, we can't bring all the things to them. And so for them to go learn that and just and I think I had to step back at one point. And I really hated you know, my, my mother and I was so sweet. She takes my son now to school almost every morning. And I hated feeling like I was saying, Could you do want to take him to school because like it was a favor to me and I but I had to step back and say, This is awesome for her. She's loving, she gets him by himself for 20 minutes in the car in the morning. And they talk about things from classical music to trees and things that I would probably not talk about in the car with him. And she loves it, it helps me. And so I was once again stepping way back from the mom guilt, she's so happy, she can help because she knows what it's like, she can take that piece and that's something she can do and do well. And it's just it's it is a you have to step back sometimes and say I got a I gotta give you give you the distance, right. And I had a girlfriend when when Ray was born, he said to me, if you do your job, right, at 18 years old, your child will move out of your house and never move back in. And you have to make decisions sometimes based on knowing that that is a future, a future forward thinking forward thinking where you might have to say, You know what, I'm kind of uncomfortable letting you go play in the backyard by yourself. But you know what, just go do it and say where I can hear you. But those little pieces of freedom then give them that onus to continue to grow. And I say this as a person with a three and a half year old. So people will 25 year olds don't judge me because I'm I'm you know, I have a three and a half year old and I'm just we're all doing the best we can so send pointers if your kids are still alive at 25 Because I don't know how I'm gonna make it that far. But um, you know, so it's, it's it is going back to that, letting other people teach them things and some of those things might be not what you want them to learn, right? I mean, you know, it's not ideal that, you know, Grandpa takes him for ice cream and then exam candy at the grocery store and drops them back off at home. You're like, well, thanks a lot, but yeah, it's part of it's part of the things that they do and it's part of that sort of thing that they're gonna have build a memory and maybe learn why you shouldn't eat candy and ice cream on an empty stomach and that's you don't feel so good later either. So yeah, there's always a lesson in there somewhere. There's always a lesson in there somewhere in our mothers, we're always right. That's, yeah. I love that. I've got so many oh my gosh, my dad with my children. It's like he's, I don't recognize him sometimes, because he's such a different grandparent to what he was, as a father, just so much more relaxed and easygoing, and the stuff that would have, you know, got him all riled up when we were kids is like, Ah, whatever. Like, I remember one day, my sister and I were sitting there watching going, Who is this man? Like? It's so love. It's fantastic. Yeah, it's, it's, I just want when my parents fencing like my grandchildren, keep me young and keep me alive and keep me going. Because it is, it's that whole new lease on life, that is this little ball of energy or multiple balls of energy, if you have extra more than one kiddo. And it's just so neat to see them. I mean, my mother wears wears him out. She's in she's in her mid 60s And he's he's zonked out at three and a half. And she's like, Hold on, I'm gonna keep going, let me go make dinner and we're gonna make cookies. And he's like, Oh, love that. It's super, it's awesome. I think it's so great. One of the things I really love talking to moms bear is the concept of their own identity, and how that might have been challenged and changed when you actually had a child? Did you sort of go through some shifts in pace or yourself? That's a great, that's a great question. And I think it's something that people don't talk enough about. Because I do feel like, there is this weird, there is this weird shift. And I, it's funny, because when I was when I first started telling some people I knew in a leadership program I was in there, I was pregnant. One of the guys said to me, how are you going to raise two babies at once being a business and your child? And I was like, Well, I really haven't thought about it. But to be all, in all fairness, I'll figure it out. That's what I've done with everything else in my life. I'll figure it out. And then you start to watch, as you know, people kind of talk to you about how's the baby going to impact your career. And finally, I just got tired of it. And it was just I just, I started doing my smart asset answers of what why don't you ask my husband, I was going to impact his career. Like, why are you asking me? And yes, I understand that I am the primary parent and that I am the one who does all the things. We that's just how most women handle life, right? But I was like, please stop that. That's not fair. To me. It's not fair to my child. And, and it is, it's hard. It's hard to figure out kind of where you fit in there. Because I'm not a, I'm not a mom who's probably going to wear the shirt with my kids face on it. You know, and that's just, that's just not me. There's a mom for every type of person. And I appreciate and respect all of those that do. And I really do, because I think we all own it, how we own it. And for me, it was really important to continue to work and continue to push and actually meeting with a friend last week. And she's in an investment group. And we were I was talking to her and she said, It's just she said, I'm a better mother, when I drop my child off to school when I go to work. And I said me too, that's just how I operate. And that's how I was raised, though I was I don't know anything really different. And but I said, you remember that one that first time when you got out and you went, you dropped your kid off with lifting with dad or babysit or whatever, that grandparent when they were little. And you went out and you went to a meeting or something and you got in the car and you were like, Yes, I still have it. I can still do this. She was like I do remember that moment. Yeah. So that to me was that moment of like, okay, I don't have to completely get rid of one to be the other. And you can be all the things. And what I've tried to to just step back and look at is having a child has made me a better worker. It's made me a better boss. It's made me a better investor, a better board member, all these things, because I've been able to have sympathy to a certain perspective. And I think COVID has also taught us all that in general. But it allows me to put a perspective and his spin on things that really, it puts things as we kind of talked about earlier. It puts everything in perspective. And there's something that says, you know, why is that? Why are we even arguing about this? This is silly. Let's go ahead and XYZ and so I really do feel like it's stepping back and being able to own what I'm good at, and be good at what I'm good at, and still attempt to be a good mom. And but not let any of that define me. I think it comp they all complement each other. Yeah, but I try not to let any of those pieces define me. And I think I learned that really early in my career. I had some pretty rough female bosses for a while including one who fired me and then fired the subsequent two other women she hired after me to fill my position. And I just realized that that was a huge identity loss for me because I was my job. And I think at that point, I realized that I can't ever truly make myself synonymous with anything, I want to try to be able to always be my own person. And I want to be a me but I also am happy to be worries mom, and Reagan's wife, and last night's game, co founder and sister to Scott, my last night's game, co founder and a daughter, and all those things. Because all of us have all of those facets. It's just how you own it. And it works for me, it might not work for somebody else. And I think that continues to go back to the point where we continue to be sympathetic to each other. And understand that it truly takes all of us to make the mom World Go down, go around, and the more we can support each other, the better off we can be and, and also make I don't know, to me, it's nice to hear someone say, Man, I lost I, I I lost it on my kids this morning. That drop off was rough. You're like mine to okay, I'm not the only one who's crazy. Okay, thank you. Yeah. And I think there's some sort of community and that of saying, Okay, it's hard for you to okay, I appreciate that. Because that means I'm not crazy. And I think is that continue stepping back and looking at the real life situations versus the Instagram perfect stuff. Because that is right, that's, we're really a community of like minded, same people. When it comes to motherhood, we all look a little different and one, one faster another. But ultimately, we're all still trying to do the same thing. And we're all probably feeling guilty about something similar. And we're probably getting driven crazy about something similar. And so and we all just want our kids to eat their fruit, vegetables, and grow up to be good humans, you know, like that. Get a decent job be a good human. Yep, some vegetables and some fruits. So you can you know, live a long life. I mean, you love it. I don't know, how about you like, what's your what's your take on that? I'm, from your perspective. The thing about being honest with each other is something that I find really intriguing because I'm the sort of person that I tell things how it is I'm extremely honest. You know, I've been really opening sharing different parts of my life. I've had experience with mental health issues. And I've talked about that openly a lot. And I think it's important to talk about stuff that I remember when I went to my first we have this thing over here called mothers group, when you have a baby, they put you in a group of all the people that had babies at the same time. And so you don't know these people, they're just random people. The only thing in common is that your babies were born, you know, within a day or two of each other. And I remember sitting with this bunch of women the first time and everyone had to go round and talk about their baby. And everyone seemed to be just perfect. Everything was going great for everybody. And I just thought what is going on here? Like, am I the only person whose baby wakes up after 45 minute naps? Am I the only person who's having trouble establishing breastfeeding? Right? I thought what the hell is going on here? So I did say a little bit of stuff. And when I said that, one of the other ladies sort of I could see her look at me like, Oh, thank god you said that. Because now I feel like I can say that, you know? And then the more we talked, it all came out. And I think people have this idea that you've got a nice set up your the way people see you is got to be a certain way and has to be right and you can't let any like crack show. I don't know. resets never bothered me. I think, you know, I've always thrived on like, really deep, honest relationships and really good honest talks. And that's why I love doing this too, because I get to talk to people in really good under the surface ways. Yeah. So it's like my sister at the moment like her daughter is a year almost exactly a year younger than my little fella who's six, nearly six and a half and we just compare drop off stories like you're just talking about like, Oh, I couldn't get them in the car this morning. And I told her to put her sucks And I'm like, yeah, no, I had that with the shoes, you know, and being honest with each other and not sitting there going, Oh, Everything went perfect for me and then making the other mom feel like a failure. You know, we got to know each other, support each other and have each other's back. Yeah. And I would also say on the flip side of that is to really celebrate each other. And that is something interesting. I have a group of girlfriends from my MBA class. And I should say that I traveled out of state every other week to Chicago, for my MBA, so I, I really like my husband was primary parent. And that was a whole shift for us. Luckily, it was COVID. And that doesn't sound right. Not luckily, it was because of COVID. He wasn't traveling. So he was a primary parents. So I really got a chance to actually embrace and make friends, sort of outside of my family, too, because I wasn't having to rush home to them as well. But I have a group of girlfriends that were on the same text message group. And to this day, that's the one where you go to if you have a big win, like, Hey, I got a promotion. And this group is so on board with, you know, we're I think women are so humble in the sense that we don't celebrate our own victories to someone else to celebrate others. And so but I love this group, because it's like, Hey, I got a promotion, oh, my god, you guys, I just landed this, or whatever that might be. And I love it. That group is very much you don't feel uncomfortable celebrating or telling your victories. And I think that's something you know, I really strive to do is seek out these things that my friends have done and, and celebrate them. And I'm a huge fan of snail mail. I love sending greeting cards, the more inappropriate the better. And so I have a whole entire box in my desk that's like, I don't know, probably 200 cards that when I find ones I like I buy them. Yeah, because I just I love that little act of recognition of who doesn't love to get mail. I mean, it goes back to like the day when you have a pen pal, right? Yeah. And so I just love that. And I love celebrating other people. Because everyone works really hard. I don't care if you're a mom, your dad, you don't have kids, you're a dog, Mom, I don't care. You everyone works their butts off. And so if we can celebrate even these little wins, whatever that might be, and you worked out five days in a row, you ate a carrot today. I don't whatever it sound like I'm gonna design some sort of weird Health Net, but I'm not. You finished a whole bottle of wine, let's celebrate. You know, I think there's just i just i There's life is so serious and so full. So being honest. And then then also owning your stuff that you are awesome. And it's great for you to be here to see this. And let's celebrate you and I encourage you if you haven't, there's the Today Show, which is like one of the morning TV programs here. On our one of our big networks here in the US. Two of the there's two morning anchors, they're both females. They're both just this last weekend inducted into the Hall of Fame for broadcasting. Oh, wow. And the one lady her name is Hoda copy. And she gave this speech and talked a lot about how really, everybody, these people, the celebrities that she's interviewed who are so astoundingly accomplished. Don't feel these women don't feel like they're worth it. She doesn't feel like she's worth it. And so let's talk about how we need to earn it because you're worth it. And she went through this whole format speech and it's it's quick. But it's so well done that I actually bookmarked it on my Instagram, because it's one of those things when you need a pep talk. That's that speech where you are worthy, you are worth it. And so celebrate you and that I mean really, that goes back into the mom guilt thing full circle of we have to just give ourselves a break sometimes and celebrate the little victories in our day, you know, what can add underwear on today? Some days that is harder than others. So let's just call that a when we have underwear on, we think we might have two shoes on, they may not match. They may not even be the right feet known to go out and like a rain boot and flip flops. And so, I mean, yeah, we just celebrate those victories that we have and the beauty we can find in our own little worlds of, you know, just stop and figure out what that might be. And, you know, sometimes that's a 15 minute time to 15 minutes to sit down with your kiddo and read a book. And that might be all you have that day. But it's still 15 minutes of book time and Qt so you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's so true. Over here in Australia, we have this. It's a terrible part of our culture. I feel like it is slightly getting better, but it's not really. It's the tall poppy syndrome about if anyone else is doing really good around you. You've got to cut them down and bring him back to the same level as everyone else. And that's been a massive part of Australian culture for a very long time. And I think that that's lends itself to the fact that people don't like to talk themselves out, because they don't want to be seen as being, you know, doing well and maybe being better at something than someone else, because people will pull them down and they'll say, Oh, yeah. What about this? Yeah, you know? Yeah. And I remember years ago, because I've been singing my whole life, and we have our towns only what? 30,000 people. So you're gonna get in the newspaper, at some point. If you live in Gambia, you're gonna get in there, at some point, hopefully, for something good. Yeah, not in like the court pages. But because I've been in singing for a long time, I've done a lot of public events and fundraisers and different community things. So I've been in the paper a lot. And early on. One of my singing teachers said to me, make sure you cut your cut your articles out, don't be vain in like, don't be scared to cut them out and keep them because she said, No one else is going to do that for you. And, you know, I thought, Oh, I feel a bit funny. You know, I Oh, look, this is me, this is me. But it's like, I'm so glad that I have them now, because I have them in this little folder. And every now and then if I'm looking through the cupboard to find something else, I'll see them like, Oh, look at me, and then I'll show the kids. And it's like, it's so nice to have that. So you worked hard to earn? Yeah, yeah. So let's see. Yeah, let me no one's gonna be, right. I mean, our parents can be really proud of us, if that's what the their verbage they use, but you've got to be proud of yourself. And that's something I think also comes with age. I think when I, when I hit 40, I all of a sudden just grew up here that I didn't really know I had, and just learn to be okay with stuff. And stop trying to fit in the mold of exactly what something should be, or should it be and, you know, sort of tried to just let some stuff go. And I mean, I was always envious of older like actresses, when you would hear them in interviews, say, Well, as I got older, I just learned not to give a crap. And I think that is like what a great place to be. And, and so you know, if someone's listening, and they're, they're younger, and feeling unsure, you've got this, you own it, because guess what you've what you're gonna have at 40 is what you're gonna have at 30 You're gonna be a little bit more a little bit wiser, but own it. You know, clip your clip your your write, clip your newspaper articles and save them because that's really cool. That's an awesome accomplishment to be able to do something so magnificent. And it may mean nothing to you, and may be nothing to you. But you know, you don't remember that sometimes you're low lights or someone's highlights like they really, yeah, it's always perspective. So celebrate you and put it off, blow it up and put it on the wall. If that's what you're into. Do it. Who cares? Yeah, that's what gets you out of bed. Do it? Yep. No, I definitely agree with that 40 year old thing. It's like the amount of women I've spoken to you that have said that same thing. It's it's a thing. You honestly, you just go not do not care. Do? You know? I don't know. You just time for this. I mean, we we looked at a school for the title human for starting, like pre K and kindergarten. And one of the schools is known to have sort of a bit more of a catty mom group and I was bullied in when I in all through middle school. And so I joke to my husband, like, I'm gonna need to go to therapy to send our child to that school because I'm not going to make it. Yeah. And it turned out that there were a lot of things that made that school not not work for us, but I just thought, why? I don't want anything to do with any of that. I really don't care if my husband I don't care if that's if you want to talk shit about us, then go for it. Have at it, but leave my kid alone. Yeah, and we'll be fine. But it's just it's one of those are like why? Yeah, let's this just seems like way too much work. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. So many times in my life. I've had this saying something's gone down. And I'm like, I'm not in high school anymore. Like this. I'm beyond this. This is not this is not worthy of my time. It's not something I want to spend my energy on. You guys go for it and do what you got to do. But I'm not doing your free toilet paper by house just like high school if that's what you want to do. That's fine. Whatever. Yeah, like Yeah, yeah, it's a funny thing. What I really tried to talk a lot about and where I've sort of started to try to own my own perspective, is to support young women coming up through their careers. Because, you know, I think I mentioned it earlier that I had some I had one or two great female bosses. But I really struggled with bosses and male bosses too. And so, you know, what, what I kind of tried to do myself is be a resource, and that is to the babysitter's who come and watch the Munchkin. You know, is it, one or two of them are getting married? They're like, can you look at my registry? Can I ask you this work? Question? How do I ask for a raise? I mean, whatever that might be, I just want to be that resource. Because I think far too often women are not really set up where we don't really do mentors like men do. And I think that's something that we as women who are further along in our career in our talents that we can do, we can provide some perspective. And I think that perspective might just be the same as this isn't high school, this isn't worth it type of thing to say, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because I think because the business world has been a man's world for so long, they've formalized this mentor stuff, and it's been something they do. And it's like, we've got to try and find ways to do it. Because it's so important. It is really important. And I think about me growing up, like, all I learned from my mum about my job was how to dress and how to answer the phone and how just, you know, that sort of stuff, not how to like, say, ask for a raise how to, you know, communicate with people in your workplace, it was all the how to type? How to Answer the phone, you know? So yeah, I think that is so so important. While I think the honor the honest side of things, and, you know, I think that it's giving reviews and giving honest feedback in areas where people really can work on things and, and grow and evolve. So all those things is continuing to give positive but constructive feedback, and being honest, and that's one thing that's really funny, we were kind of out of our friends, our friends here, we're sort of on the the older end and the first have children, whereas in other places, we were kind of at the tail end of it. And we've had friends who've had kids who say, can we go to dinner with the two of you, because I know you'll give us the honest feedback about parenting and pregnancy and all of that stuff. And like, sure, that's what we're here for. I'm not going to pretend that you know, pregnancy and newborns are all like puppies and babies and toilet paper commercial, like they're not all fluffy. It's not all perfect. And so here's some perspective, I want you to know that it's fantastic. But it's also tough. There's going to be tough times where, you know, my husband would say, Well, you know, took me a long time, a little while to get, like, really feel like I bonded with the baby, and all those things. But all that stuff is things I think are things that people don't talk about, once again, going back to your baby class. And it's all normal. And so maybe it won't happen to you. But if it does know that that's okay, and know that that's normal, and your hormone fluctuations, whatever that might be. So, you know, it's really truly pick up that next generation, but be honest to maybe not to, to a fault, but provide some honest feedback and constructive criticism of work if that's where that that relationship lies and, and truly being. Because I think that's going to set us all up for success when it comes down to it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good on you. So you can find last night's game at last night's game.com We are on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter as well as LinkedIn. And I run our Instagram account. So all the stories are the kind of behind the scenes of the life of another founder, a female founder. And so you'll see the tiny human running around probably with you know, his rear end hanging out on his scooter in the front yard. You start from there to a little bit of everything. So Instagram was definitely a really fun place for us to share a story. And let's say last night's game.com And then we're on our podcasts is sports curious. And we are on all major podcast platforms and we come out on that releases on Wednesdays and it's about a five minute podcast very rarely do we go over five minutes so I'm here to make sure that your life is short, sweet and out the door and you get on your way with all the other very important things you have going on in life. Oh love that. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been it's been really lovely chatting with you. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you. I look I look forward to making the visit your way here in the next year. Yeah, well, if you if you ever need boy yell out. Well, for sure. Absolutely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Dr Melanie Cooper Australian mixed media visual artist + art historian S1 Ep07 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Melanie Cooper is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide South Australia, and a mother of 2. Melanie combines painting + drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet, stitching and rug making techniques. In this episode we chat a lot about art, as Melanie’s expertise in the long 18th Century allows us to delve into the role and treatment of women artists during this era. We also discuss the importance of sharing our experiences as mothers, and the role of judgment in our current society – and how it got there. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression** Melanie website See the Queen Victoria yarn bomb here Shop art supplies that Melanie uses here Podcast instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Dr. Melanie Cooper. Melanie is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide, South Australia, and a mother of two. Melanie combines painting and drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet stitching and rug making techniques in her art. In this episode, we chat a lot about art history as Melanie's expertise in the long 18th century, allows us to delve into the role and treatment of artistic women during this era. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression. Thank you for coming on, it's an absolute pleasure to have you. And I'm excited about the different sorts of things that you might be able to share as your role as an art historian, but you're also a visual artist. So let's start with that. Why don't you tell us about your own art practice? My art practice is pretty diverse. I as with my other work as well, I kind of consider myself to be an interdisciplinary artist. So I'm primarily a painter. But I also work across textiles and drawing and, you know, just a lot of a lot of different things I've been making. For as long as I can remember, like, even as a child I was, I've always been making stuff. My work is very personal to me it's very, it's, I guess it's a way for me to articulate things that I find very difficult to communicate verbally or in written language. I'm just kind of really interested in my, I mean, of course, my own experience, but also the spaces in between thoughts and ideas and experience and memory, like, you know, the things that we can't see, I try really hard to not just document experience, and those kinds of things, but also to kind of try and make my own thoughts and feelings visible in some form. So it's kind of it's a way for me to reconcile a whole heap of thinking and a whole heap of experience, but in a way that's really tangible. And so in a lot of ways, it's all about the process. For me, the end, the end point is always a great thing, because people can actually see it, but it's kind of it feels like it's work that's never finished, because I need to keep going. And it's almost ritualistic in a way, I guess, because I'm kind of quite often repeating myself, like, for example, in textiles, I'm using lots of the same sort of stitches. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking and kind of integrating all of those ideas and thoughts and memories and, you know, and, and responses to place as well, I just kind of draw lots of connections from the outside world and sort of it kind of comes in, and then I sort of spit it back out into some sort of form. I don't I don't really, it's a really, really hard thing to explain. Like, it's just it makes sense to me anyway. And hopefully, when people when people will look at it, hopefully they kind of, you know, bring their own ideas to it as well their own responses, and there's no right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to deliver a precise message. You know, people don't have to have a perfect takeaway from it, as long as they kind of, you know, respond to it in some way. I'm happy. So. And that is the great thing about I think, too, in any of its forms that people will take what they need from I suppose in their own interpretation of what, what they're in their life or what they're going through or anything like that. So you're working with textiles, Melanie, what kind of materials are you working with? So with the with my textiles, this is a little bit confusing for people sometimes I consider that to be part of my painting practice. So I work with textiles in the same way that I mean, I know it's a different material. But the way that I you approach that practice is the same way that I approach my painting with the same ideas and the same motivations and the same kinds of thinking. But I use knitting and crochet. And I also use traditional rug making techniques and just a little bit of stitching as well, but predominantly things like punching, which is punching through a hashing surface with a needle and knitting and crocheting pieces of fabric that I sort of manipulate and stitch down and explore with that kind of material material. Process is a really good way For me to sort of like think through a whole heap of stuff, and I kind of figure it out as I go, I'm very intuitive, I don't really sort of sit down and draw up a plan or anything, I kind of work it out as I go. And product, of course, it's always really important, you know, you, you do want people to engage with something that you're really proud of. And it needs to be aesthetically appealing in some way. Whether whether that's a really positive thing, or you know, something that's a bit more challenging for people, that's cool. But it really is, like, the the, for me the whole, it's the process, you know, it's the end product is really, really important, of course, but the process? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know that I would do it. If it wasn't for the process, you know, me like, I'm not just making stuff to decorate things. We thought we've got enough decoration. It's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's something that I still need to think about putting into words, because I find it really, really difficult. Yeah, it's kind of the process of experimentation and exploring, and just finding, finding out how far you can push something is really fun and really interesting as well. Yes, I like new techniques and, and working with things in different ways. And that sort of Absolutely. Tell me about your children. So I'm very fortunate to have a son who's almost 18, and a daughter, who is almost 11. So they're quite far apart in age. But they're just incredible. Little humans, you know, with very different different needs at the moment. They're both still at school, obviously. And, you know, they're both doing their own thing. And, you know, I'm, yeah, they're both. They're both very strong personalities. And of course, that comes with its own challenges sometimes, but I'm actually really proud of the relationship that I have with them. Both. Were really good mates. So I think, yeah, I love my children very dearly as all mothers do, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You say this look seven years between your toy? I've got seven years between my two. Yeah. Some people think, wow, that's huge. And in some ways it is. But in some ways, it's not. Either. It's a funny thing is, Oh, yeah. And it's, I think, I'll be interested to see how they grow as they get older, because my oldest is 12, or 13. And my little ones about to turn six. So at the moment, they have times when they absolutely cannot stand each other. But I think as they get older, and dig becomes out of that little little person stage. They might, I mean, they get on great, don't get me wrong, but things might not be quite as explosive. Do you know, honestly, things can be quite explosive with my kids. And like, that's why I say, you know, they're both very strong personalities. They're both, they're both very, very clever. And they know how to test each other. And they do they, they do get explosive. But the funny thing is as intense as that is, sometimes they also have this really intense love for each other. It's and it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll just walk into a room and I'm like, oh my god, you guys are having a hug right now. What's going on? Is everything okay? Yes, fine. Mom is totally fine. You're sure? Yeah. And it's also because I think they're very different places in their own development. Like they have very, very different needs. Like, you know, Seth, my son, he, at the moment, he just really needs his own space. Sometimes he needs his own privacy and all those sorts of things. Like he's merely an adult. And his little sister likes to kind of walk into his room unannounced and jeans and he's just like, oh, my god, get out. And you know, he's never like, he's just playing a game or something. It's not anything major, but he's just like, leave me alone. And she Yeah, of course, you know, sometimes she just wants to be around her big brother. But and he does it to her too, though. Sometimes she'll be quiet. You know, she'll be sitting on the couch or in her room doing her own thing. And he'll come in and he'll be like, all over and, you know, just in the mood for a joke. And she's like, Oh, no. Yeah, and it all kind of kicks off and I have to Yeah, yeah. It's also really lovely though, when you find them playing, like, you know, when they they take their own initiative to get the ball guy outside and kick her around the backyard together, that kind of stuffs really lovely. Yes. Something good is here. So you said before you've been creating you pretty much your whole life. Has that sort of changed then as you had your children as they came into Your Life, we starting to find that challenge the balance between you and your role as a mother. In different times of my life, definitely. So I can't, I mean, there's a few different things I could say about this sort of stuff. Like, you know, before having kids, I really believed that I needed one full solid day to get something done, you know, I always had this kind of idea that you had to have a full day. And if you didn't have that full day, nine to five kind of idea, whatever those hours were, it really like there's no point. But I've since learned, especially with my second, with Scarlett half an hour, you can actually achieve so much in half an hour. Because sometimes that's all you get. And I mean, it kind of fluctuates, or depending on what's going on with them and where you are, in state, like the stage of their life and stuff. There's been times where I found it incredibly difficult. Like, with my painting practice, for example, I like when I had my son, Seth, I found that really difficult to get back into for a while because I had quite bad postnatal depression. So that kind of was a bit of a block for me for a while. But then after a period of time, I kind of learned when I was sort of working through that I was drawing and things but I kind of went back to knitting, which is something that I've kind of always been doing since I was like about five, but then I sort of realized, you know, this is a really portable medium, and I can just pick it up and put it down, I don't have to go out and studio. So I think that's where it kind of really started becoming this thing that I've incorporated into my practice. And over time, I kind of just kept pushing it more and developing it more. And that's so that's always been there. Like I'm always, you know, carrying around knitting or crochet because it is so portable, and I can't sit on the couch and not do things. So if I have to sit on the couch and nurse a baby or rock a baby to sleep, you know. So like there's, it's there's different ways that you can still be creative, without having to go out into the studio without having to have an entire day. And, you know, try and figure out all the other logistics around that. So I've just, I think I've always sort of looked for ways that I can still fit stuff in. And, you know, like, when they're not sleeping and stuff, that's really good thinking time. So you can use that time in the middle of the night to kind of think about what do I need to do tomorrow, and you start planning and organizing your thoughts. So that when you do have that time, you can just jump straight in, he's not kind of lost, not knowing where to go, what direction to take, or what needs to be done, you can just sort of like jump in and be productive. And I think that's that kind of motivates you and gives you the energy to keep going as well. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that mother who doesn't like I don't want to say adversity, but you know, just the challenges sometimes that you face and the things that you kind of find yourself up against, that you weren't prepared for. I think that's really taught me that yeah, actually, I'm really good at improvising. And, and that's really fun in itself too. Because sometimes you kind of you end up with outcomes you couldn't predict or better outcomes than if you planned and organized everything completely perfectly and down to the last minute. Like, sometimes you just kind of go, you know, do things by the seat of your pants, and you get up the other side of you think, wow, that's actually really great. And that could lead to something else. You know, like, never in a million years would I like when I was painting in art school, I didn't think that I would be you know, knitting in my actual painting practice. I kind of thought that's the thing that I do when I watch TV. And you know, it's not really part of my, my serious art career. But now it definitely is. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun. I think you've learned so much from being a mom. Yeah. And having to having to restructure your own thinking and just make things happen. You know, not just sit around waiting for the time, but actually just making that time you have to, otherwise it will never happen. Yeah, the thing for me as well, like, it's almost like a it's a compulsion for me to make like, it always has been even as a kid like, I just always have to make something and it doesn't always have to be like a big finished painting. Sometimes it is just, you know, something with a lump of air dry clay or, you know, a drawing in the mud out in the backyard or something like, I've just always had to do something. And yeah, it's a it's a compulsion, I think. But it's also I was thinking about this the other day, I think it's also about making a space for yourself, like making art or even just making and staff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself, even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important, as an adult, when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time or it becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an adult. Absolutely. It's like, mental health, you know, and it's, and it's so connected with looking Yeah, looking after yourself. And so, for me, it's very much part of my identity. I think, like, it's, it's not like, the job, the great job that I've got that I go to, and I'll retire from one day, so something that I think is always has always been a part of who I am. Definitely isn't. Yeah, it's one day, you just get to hang it up and go, right i that's finished now. I'm retired. What do I do? Exactly? Exactly. Yes. It's, sometimes it would be nice to sort of like bundle it up and pack it away. But it's no, that's not an option. I don't think. Wanted to ask you just you talked about your painting, how you never thought that your meeting would become part of you the way I think you said you serious art practice? How did how did it become part? Did you one day just decide to combine it like how did it physically happen? Um, it's a very, it's a very good question. So when I was in art school, I, I realized that I detested oil painting, and I. And so I couldn't do live painting anymore. And I wasn't really interested in that anyway. And so I dropped out of that subject. And I had to do another elective and sort of make that as like a, not just an elective subject, but like a major subject, and it was rug making. And I was like, Wow, this sounds really cool. And it's using wool. Awesome, I'll do that. So I learned some techniques. And, you know, just kind of played with that for a bit and then put it away. And when I thought, I just kind of, I kind of just stuffed around with it a bit and picked it up, put it down, and just put it played with those ideas for a while. And I kind of experimented without really taking it very seriously. And then, you know, fast forward a couple of years, I became a member of a studio here in Adelaide called voting booth studios. And I shared that space with several other artists. And at the time, I think there was 12 artists, but I had brought all my things from my old studio into the space and was unpacking stuff and messing around with things and just having a look at what I had. And one of the things that I had was a half finished, rogue or wallhanging, I wasn't really sure what to call it at the time. I pulled it out as looking at it. And one of my friends looked at it and said, Oh, what's this, and I was just this thing that I've just been playing with. And he's kind of like, oh, that's, that's kind of really cool. Maybe you should think about finishing it. I was really, okay. And, you know, I just wasn't at that time, I just wasn't really sure what I was doing. Because, you know, a whole heap of other stuff had just happened. And I was coming through a difficult place. But I just kind of thought, you know, this is an easy thing to pick up and just go on with, I'll maybe I'll figure out what I'm doing next. So I just kind of kept working on this thing. And then it became a finished piece. And I was like, wow. And there was just this one little engineer alpha, I don't really know what to do on this end bit. And I was mucking around with some knitting at home. And I just kind of something told me or compelled me to put that piece of knitted fabric onto the rug, and just see what it looks like. And so I was just like, wow, this is another way of combining surfaces and textures and different techniques, and actually really kind of like what's happening. And so that's what I started doing there. I sort of started messing around with it. And I was really excited by what I had discovered. And so I just kind of thought, what can I do next. And so I started making lengths of knitted fabric and started stuffing about with it in the next pieces and just kind of exploded from there. And I kind of realized, well, I can actually use knitting in the same way that I do. You know, brush strokes and different ways of applying paint, I can actually just make the paint and manipulate it and stitch it down or do something with it. And yeah, the more I do it, the more I do the more ideas or come up with and sometimes my head is just like swimming with ideas. I get really anxious because I don't know if I'm gonna get time to do it all because, you know, that's the exciting thing about knitting, sewing, and especially crochet too. It's only a couple of stitches. But the different ways that you can combine those stitches with different materials and different ways of like different combinations, you end up with so many different kinds of results. So it's exciting. And yeah, it just kind of it just kind of unraveled. And, like a very natural process. It just kind of kept expanding. From there. Yeah, really, that's really awesome story. And I think that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm really grateful for being in that studio at that time. Because, you know, if it hadn't have been for someone walking past and looking at and going, yeah, that's pretty cool. Maybe you should see what happens if you finish it. Like just that little bit of encouragement from a friend, it was like, Yeah, okay, maybe this is worth thinking about. And, you know, the same friend was really amazing, too. I credit him with encouraging me when I had my exhibition, my first solo after that, will not my first solo but my first solo for a number of years, he sort of said to me, you know, the back is the back of that piece is really cool. Maybe you should think about hanging it so people can see the back as well. And that's, that was another really important part of developing my practice as well. He sounds like a pretty useful bloke to have around. I think, yeah, he's he's very generous person. And I think that's also one of the virtues and one of the great advantages of being in a studio with other people working around you. Because sometimes, you can give each other that sort of feedback, or, you know, just the comment of someone walking past is enough to make you think twice about, yeah, actually, maybe I won't throw that in the bin, you know, maybe that is worth spending some more time on. And that's been that's been incredibly valuable to me. So I'm very, I'll always be grateful for that. So you've done also yarn bombing, create, whatever, you're gonna make your knitting or crocheting, and then you go and put it out on structures in the town, or in the city? Yes, yes, I have. And I've had a lot of fun doing that, with a group of friends. We haven't done anything for a while, that tried to make something happen just after COVID. But it kind of fell through. That's a whole other story. But yeah, that's something that I got an enormous kick out of, I have to say, because it's different. It's a bit different now. But originally, the idea was, you make something and you attach it to a public structure somewhere, but you have to do it without being caught and without anyone seeing you because it's kind of illegal. So it's kind of like, yeah, hardcore ladies hit the town. You know, so much fun. The first time the first tag I ever did was just like, this crochet length of bright blue fabric, kind of like a scarf. And I went down one of the alleyways, just for Rundle Street, and my heart was beating. So it's in the middle of the day, and I was like, whipped it on around this pole, stitching it as fast as I could. And my heart was beating so loud, it was roaring you might use skipped off down the street afterwards on such a high. It was just, it was just this simple little band of blue, but it was like yes, I have done this really cool. Outlaw thing. Yeah, that was enormously fun. And then after that, we're just, you know, I kind of need some bow ties, and I attach these bow ties on to, you know, sculptures of people's heads and stuff down North terrorists and things and in the Botanic Gardens. But the really the really cool thing was, many years ago, I can't remember exactly what year it was. But there was this sort of like a street art festival thing that was happening. A former student of mine, Peter Drew, who's now done lots of lots and lots of other things. He was organizing groups of people to paint and, you know, sort of decorate, mini skips. And so I can't I can't remember exactly where I found out about it. I think it might have been a Facebook page or something like that. There was an idea to cover it with knitting like the st. yarn bombing stuff. So I kind of just went on my own. I had no idea I didn't had I didn't know anyone who was going to this thing. I just happened to meet this bunch of gorgeous women. Very different ages, very different backgrounds, and they're all just making these squares to cover this dumpster. It was so much fun and we just got along so well and so we kind of over a period of time. found ourselves in a group that we decided to call a play on the sly. It was enormous fun. We've done so many projects we did. You know, there was a festival coId called, boy you street art festival. There was a whole exhibition in the Festival Theatre. There are a couple of bank sees and other bits and pieces in there and we were asked to cover, I think are called the Mellie tree poles outside. That's like an installation. I'm not sure if it's still there. But we covered these big long poles with, you know, different lengths of fabric and attached insects and flowers and stuff to it. That was so much fun. But one of my favorite projects was a nano nano reckless Julie Collins and I went made a dress for the statue of Queen Victoria. And we had it installed by the Adelaide City Council at like, two o'clock in the morning. They had, they had cherry pickers and council workers attaching this big knitted dress with cable ties to the statue of Queen Victoria. And it was it was so much fun. And it was part like it was around Christmas time. So it was when the whole square was decorated with different things. And just going along, to see that in the middle of the day. And seeing all these people walking past it stopping looking and taking photos of this thing that you'd made. It was just so much fun, because, you know, you're just sort of like sitting there watching everybody else getting so much joy out of this thing that we just did. Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that. We've done stuff for Matthew Flinders and Douglas Mawson, one of my friends met him at balaclava. We've done things for the Robert Burns statue at the front of the State Library. Yeah, things like that. There's been lots of stuff that the group has done, and it's just been wonderful. Yes, we haven't doing that. We're still within the group doing stuff now. Um, well, we were going to do a project for Christmas last year, back in November. And I didn't know how to say in a short way, because I don't want to sort of I don't want to sound negative. But we were asked to do a project. And then the street that we were asked to do it on. People on the the people in the street like the business owners decided no, we don't want that. And that was really, that was really sad. And I found that really upsetting because for some of the people in the group that hadn't actually been able to work on anything, as a group or for themselves for a long time, there was a one mom in there, I know that she was, you know, it was really important to her to get together and to do this thing, because she hadn't done anything for herself for a really long time. And so all of a sudden, we had this thing that was really exciting. And we were we were so excited about getting back together and doing something and it was just taken away because of mismanagement and miscommunication. You know, like the person who was organizing the thing and had asked us to do it hadn't spoken to the business owners properly. So all of a sudden, she just sort of like sent me an email one day and said, You know what, sorry, they just don't want you here anymore. And it was devastating. Actually. It was really, it was really sad. Like, I was fine with it, because I had my own stuff to go with. But as I was saying some of some of the group members hadn't hadn't been doing their own thing for a long time. And it was very important to them that we were doing it. And yeah, all of a sudden, it just wasn't there. So yeah, we do we need to get back together and do something because I think, you know, we just had so much fun together. There's no reason that we haven't done anything for a while. I think it's just like the whole COVID thing and people being busy and life getting in the way. So I think yeah, we just we just need to do it. We just, we just really need to Yeah, you know, put a date in the diary and get together and do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much fun. And we do we all work together so well. We just have very different lives in very different directions. And I think that's that's the only thing that kind of makes it a bit tricky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking about when you put your pieces up, and then you see people their reaction to that. I get so much joy and I it almost it always makes me feel like a little child even reminds me of like Easter time when when I was a kid and you'd be looking for your Easter eggs and you find them hidden in the garden and that amazing feeling of finding things. That's how I feel when I see people's creations all around the place. I just love it. It's such a beautiful I love it too, because you, I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, it is that generosity and that sharing and the joy. But it's also like, it kind of feels a little bit naughty or a little bit not naughty, but like a little bit. You know, people, people being creative outside of the prescribed conventional spaces of institutions and galleries and high end things, it's kind of making things accessible. And it's also like the random accidental thing of finding stuff as well as it's kind of, you know, I'm gonna make this thing and I'm going to put it out there because I can, I'm not going to ask anybody's permission to do it, not going to apply to do it. I'm just going to do it. And I love I love that. It's so it's so much fun. And it's, you know, of course, it's always with the best intentions, but it's also a little bit, you know, it's very empowering actually think it's really empowering. I know it is for me. Yeah, I think it's incredibly generous to because you're not, you're not creating it with any sort of expectation of, I mean, you aren't getting something back. But like, you know, it's not a monetary gain, you're doing it because you love it. And because you know, you're going to bring joy to paper, I think that's just beautiful. I wanted to utilize your expertise as an art historian throughout this discussion, could you just let us know first what the era or the period that you are really drawn to with your art history. So my area of expertise is the 18th century. So that's, that's what I know most, the deepest part of my knowledge and research has always has been the 18th century. Insane. I'm really fascinated and have a really solid understanding of the 20th century as well, because I've studied that in depth too. But also, of course, I'm interested in contemporary art, art of the art that is being made now and the very recent past to and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think researchers, like artists, they develop their interests and their ideas in lots of different directions at the moment and kind of looking more things like iconoclasm as well, which kind of stretches across all periods really iconoclasm for for those who don't know, is the destruction or accidental or intentional of artworks, or buildings and monuments and things like that, too. Yeah. So what drew you to that? It's the 1700s, isn't it? If it's the 18th century, so how it works? Yeah. No, that's cool. And to make things even more confusing, people have different definitions around time periods as well, that so for, for the 18th century, we used to say, oh, you know, that's 1700 to 1800. But the truth is, most people now call it like, referred to that period as the long 18th century. So it's sort of like, T straddles the late 70s, sort of like 1685 1690, through to about 1820. And people kind of debate those precise use, but it does kind of overlap, centuries, either side is 70. Is that because of the work? Was it was the era of that art in that time? Or is that just how historians talk about time periods? It's more around world events and things like that as well. It's not it's not a facade. I mean, the hard thing with art history, whatever period you're looking at, it's, we kind of like to think in nice sort of compartmentalized boxes with nice start and finish points. But the truth is, is that things just overlap. And, and there's not like one linear narrative or style or thing that's happening. There's lots of different things that are happening all at the same time. And we're only really starting to do a better job at recognizing that now. There's multiple histories, and multiple styles and things happening all at the same time. So really history. It's not like this one linear thing. It's like a big spiderweb of, you know, and it's really messy. And that's, that's the thing that makes it really interesting and dynamic, but we're not very good at thinking about things that way. We insist on putting things in nice, neat little categories and everything has to have a neat timeframe. Like it can't be like 1521 to 1673 because that just doesn't feel neat and contained for us. We have this need to contain things, which is crazy because that's not how time Her explore life. I must point out and acknowledge though that that's a very Western way of thinking, like, I'm sure like, I don't have the understanding to talk about this at length, but you know, other cultures and other strange other philosophies or other systems of doing things, think about things in very different ways. So what I'm referring to is, it's a Western perspective. It's not, it doesn't account for everybody, for sure. So within that time period, that long 18th century, what, what drew you to that era, I suppose, like how, why, why that period for you? This goes back to art school. My practice is very, very different to the 18th century, I my my own art practice is radically different. But the reason I was drawn to that is because when we went to when I was in art school, we had to do art history and theory. And we had this lecture in first year, who was very handsome and very charismatic. And everybody hung on every word, he said. And so we went to every lecture thinking, these lectures are amazing, and they're brilliant. And I was one of the fans. I thought he was wonderful. But there was one subject that he did. And it was kind of, I think it was called, like the history of Western art, or something like this. And he started with the caves of Lascaux. And he kind of worked his way through lecture, lecture, the lecture going through the history of Western art. And I remember this one day, he, I can't remember the name of the lecture, but he did the 18th century in one slide. Like I just like, I just have to pause there, because it still blows my mind. It totally blew me away, like, you'd gone. You know, one lecture might have been on surrealism and data, like an entire one hour lecture on surrealism and data, which is a movement in 19, the 1920s, like, you know, a response to the wars and things quite, it's quite a complex movement. But the 18th century, he kind of did this thing where he put up an image by a painter called fraggin, ah, he did a painting called the swing, a put this, this slide up, and I was fresh out of arts, I mean, fresh out of high school, too. So I was very young, I really didn't know very much. And he just put this slide up, and everyone erupted into laughter. And he said, this is like, the 18th century chocolate box fluff and nonsense. That's it. See later, let's jump into the 19th century. And I was just kind of like, I remember sitting there thinking, Why does everybody think this is funny? And why does he just wipe out an entire century with one slide, like, to me, I was like, I had no interest in painting that way, I had no interest in that style from my own work at all. But looking at that painting, I thought, wow, this is actually really, really skilled work. It's really complex. There's all these things happening in that picture. I don't understand what it is. But there's a lot more to this thing. I was just intrigued, absolutely intrigued. And then, you know, I also saw films like Amadeus, and, you know, all the all the period movies and stuff, and I just kind of developed this love for, you know, the 18th and 19th centuries. And then, when I went to study art history, I did four subjects and kept going and, you know, the my love for the 18th century grew. And I was kind of when I came to do my masters. I was like, do I do my Masters on Australian abstraction? Or do I do it on the 18th century, and then I went 18th century because I feel like I know and understand a lot about abstraction, but don't really understand the 18th century enough. So that's what took me that way. And I think it's also because images of that period of very complex nerve, very rich and iconography, which is, you know, the study of signs and symbols to kind of untangle what a pitcher is telling us. And I think that kind of tapped into my love for detective novels, and Agatha Christie and solving the clues. So I think that's what drew me in the most was just, you know, again, fun, lots of fun. And, you know, that period is fascinating, because, so, so much is happening in a very, very short timeframe. When you think about it, so much stuff for life is radically changing. And we've, we've inherited so much of that, you know, bad things as well as good things in within that period of time. There were lots of different movements, or was it the same? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll just very, very quickly tell you that the difference between the 20th century In the age of the long, 18th century, the long 18th century is kind of broken up into three major styles you could argue maybe for. But the 20th century is a very rapid succession of multiple movements. So there's lots of movements all throughout the century, and some of those overlap as well. So, you know, I'd have to sit down and write them down and can't off the top of my head, but lots and lots of movements happening very quickly. So some movements might kind of, you know, be defined by a naysayer decade, but and they resurface and influence other artists as well. So there's lots of overlap. And there's just lots of stuff happening. The 18th century is a century that has been neglected in research and scholarship until up until about the last 10 or 20 years, you know, people just didn't take it very seriously. So there's still a little bit of debate and a little bit like there's a lot of work to be done still. The start of the period, some people refer to as late Baroque, but it's really the Rococo, which is that the very highly decorative style, and then the, from the Rococo, we move into neoclassicism, which is, you know, the more classical austere kind of painting where it's all about heroic virtue, and those kinds of things leading up to the revolution. And then, around the time, like after the revolution, you have a movement called romanticism, which kind of spills over into the 19th century. And that's where you have artists like Turner doing those beautiful images of shipwrecks and storms and things like that. So we're going back to nature and the the power of nature and the sublime and those kinds of things. So it's really like, three year three movements in one century, and they do overlap in some of those artists. So for example, some of the, the artists working the Rococo style, kind of they also, you know, depending on when they were born, and who they were working for, they do kind of creep into the other styles as well. So some of the new classical artists move into romanticism, some of them don't, some of the Rococo artists move into neoclassicism, it really depends on where they are. And I guess that that notion of things have to have a start and finish, it just doesn't work like that things are all overlapping. And, yeah. And it's really formed and shaped by what's happening in the political and social cultural context as well, like, you know, so the easy thing there is like the the revolution, the French Revolution had an enormous impact on artists. So you do see a lot of things happening in the artwork that, you know, as what an art historian does is we look at works that are made in different time periods, and try and understand them in the context that they were made in as well. And that helps us understand what people were concerned by what people were thinking and how lives were lived at that period. Art historians tend to specialize. Like, for example, I specialize in the 18th century, but also look at contemporary art. Also look at modern art, sometimes I look a little bit at the 17th from the 19th. But I couldn't tell you very much about the Byzantine period, for example, there's just so much stuff out there. Art historians, we don't memorize dates and titles of paintings and things because that's connoisseurship. What we do is we look at objects and images as primary sources of material that can tell us it's kind of it's like detective work, you know, historians look at letters and documents and things and to tell the story of a person or what's happening in a period of time. And that's what we're doing with objects and images, where, you know, we're talking about the history of the work and the artist itself, but we're also recognizing it, doesn't it? Nothing is made in a vacuum, like, you know, artists are working in all different kinds of circumstances and political climates. And it really does shape what's being made. And not just visual art, but music and literature as well. Yeah. I mean, I've given very, very short, brief overviews of things. I've felt I have simplified things a lot. But I think, like, for example, when I when I say, you know, that 18th century has been a period that hasn't been as loved up until now, it's very different now. But when I started doing my Masters, people were still dismissing the Rococo, which is like the earliest period of the 18th century, there was some really groundbreaking research happening and the art historian is really fighting for the for that area of the discipline to be taken seriously, and they've done amazing work since but I think, you know, art history, it's like any other discipline, I guess, you know, it is susceptible to fashion you know, sometimes it It's hard to, you know, study an Australian colonial art, you know, I don't know, like it does go through fashion. But I think the 18th century really was quite overlooked. I'm not sure about the other disciplines, but definitely in art history, it was overlooked and not taken very seriously for a long time. That's his, like you said there was so much happening at that time, there was so much going on, and so much changing. And then it's like, oh, we're not actually going to write it. You know what I mean? Well, I can, again, I'll give you a very short answer for that, um, things like neoclassicism and romanticism, which happens later in the century were studied and taken more seriously. Like I, you know, I, like I was saying I did sort of condense what I was saying, and I simplified it a lot. They were taken seriously, much more seriously, for a long time than the first part of the century, which is that period that I refer to, or everyone refers to as the Rococo. And that is, because when we look at and this is, this is why that slide that I mentioned, was laughed at. Because it is so pretty, it is so feminine, it is so over the top decorative, it's ostentatious, it's, you know, it's just the height of frivolous for some people. And, you know, people kind of look at that, and the thing Oh, that's so ridiculously chocolate box, which is exactly what the lecturer said, like, there's, it's all feminine, decorative nonsense, there's no substance to it. And in that period of time, you know, women were powerful patrons, and they were really helping to shape fashion. And so, you know, sadly, because there were so many women involved, it was denigrated as fluff and nonsense, and it's totally not, like, once you start researching and looking at those images properly, and like looking at the culture in the social context of the period, it was enormously sophisticated and very, very progressive. Um, but, you know, historic later historians, you know, sort of later, later, from the 19th century, in particular, kind of looked back on that time and said, Oh, it's, it's all just feminine. You know, let's look at the stuff that's much more serious. And, you know, much more interesting, because, you know, it's about war. You know, the forces of nature and exploration and things, which is, of course, fascinating. But that's, that's really why people didn't take the early period of the 18th century. Seriously, for a long time. Yeah, because it was too feminine. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, it's just about flowers and puppies, you know, but there's a lot there's so much more. That's hilarious. Yeah, and it's a very simplistic view, because, of course, they're really looking at, you know, paintings and fashion and things. But, you know, the Rococo, you have to look at what was happening in, you know, maths and architecture, like there is that period of the Rococo period, and that style, that movement informed mathematics. I don't understand how that is, but it does. I'm not a mathematician, but I have read that it informed architecture and garden design and, you know, philosophy. It's incredibly rich period, the artists were talking to, you know, writers and philosophers and musicians, they were all generating and exchanging ideas and these really amazing communities. Yeah, like you said, before the community having people together, and yeah, bouncing ideas off of each other. So we briefly briefly touched on the involvement of women in that era, during that time were women painting, or were they more, like you said, the patrons of that era. So this is really this is really, really interesting. So both in that period of time, you know, the, I'm trying to think of how to make this a short story, not a very long one. So, in that period of time, women, I've got to be careful how I say this, because I'm not saying women were completely liberated from, you know, systems of patriarchal oppression because they certainly weren't. But women with money and power became very influential patrons. So one patron in particular, I'll give you one example Madame de Pompadour or was the king's favorite. She was a woman from a middle class background, she worked her way up. And she became a very, very influential patron of the arts. And she was a very good friend to artists and philosophers, musicians, scientists, she was an intellectual woman. And she held her own salons. And she, yeah, she patronized, you know, she, she commissioned artists to, and not just visual artists, but all kinds of artists to make work for her. And so that kind of patronage was really, really important to artists, you know, in sustaining their careers and their incomes, but also in shaping the visual culture of the time as well. And so yes, women with money and power and privilege, were definitely heavily involved in shaping the visual culture. For artists, female artists, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. There were some really, and I'll use the word exceptional. And some some art historians do use that term, too. There were exceptional art, women artists who had the support to train in, you know, studios that have their brothers or their fathers, for example. And at that time, women weren't allowed to go into the academies, except for a couple of women that we call the exceptional women. So for example, Angelica Kauffman, and Elizabeth Vichy LeBron, were two examples of female artists who worked in like they entered, they were permitted entry into the French Academy. And they became very successful artists. And they worked for the crown. And for example, LeBron and Kaufman, they worked for the Queen's at the time as well, for Marie Antoinette. And so they were very good friends of very powerful people. But that was quite rare. It wasn't, it wasn't as common. It was, it was much. No, I think, I think the thing about being a woman artists at that time was, you know, you really needed to have the support of men around you, like you needed to, you know, have, especially early in your life, because you sort of started training, as a child, or as a very young adult, you really needed to have access to a studio. And that was really out of the reach for females, unless you had a brother or a father, you might have been helping them make their work in the studio and have access to materials, someone might look at what you were doing, and say that's really, that's really great, we're going to try and get you some teaching, they might go and work with another artist and you know, gain some more skills. But the process is much more difficult for a female to become a professional academic painter. There were also other artists who, and this is where it gets. Again, I don't I don't want to go on and on too much, because it's not an art history lesson. But there were other artists who worked in pastels, for example, they didn't do the traditional academic painting, they use pastels to make beautiful images of flowers and portraits and things. And some of those women were working very independent of the academy. And that's how they sort of sustained their practice. But they weren't considered professional in the same way that the members of the academy and the painters to the Crown were. So you had different groups, I guess the thing was, gaining entry into the academy was that you had to, you had to sort of like, do a whole heap of training and learning first, but then to enter into the academy, you had to paint what they what we call an academy reception piece. So it was always like it had to be a grand painting. With a mythological or historical subject matter. It couldn't be a portrait or a landscape. It had to be like a religious work or something like that. And then that was judged and if that was good enough, then they could enter into the academy. But when I shouldn't say too, when I say exceptional for the women, it wasn't just that they were exceptionally talented or exceptionally good. What I mean by that is that women like Angelica Kauffman, for example, she she was very successful. She was an independent professional artist. She was considered exceptional, not just because of her talent, but the fact that she was a woman. You know, it's like, women aren't really supposed to be good at these things. Women are, you know, the too imaginative. They're too irrational and emotional to be doing work. In the same capacity as men, right? Well, because because she's a woman, she's exceptional. And it's a heartbreaking thing to say like, and I still I find that really difficult because you know, in that period women, like Pompadour, for example, she was the king's favorite she was a powerful patron she was an intellectual she, she was also a printmaker, she was doing all these amazing things. She was, she was, of course, very, very powerful and privileged because of the position she was in. But she was also someone who came from a middle class background and worked her way up. But these, these women were standout figures. And we we call them exceptional, because that's not that's not the normal life of a woman in that period like that they are elite women. And even even when you do have privilege behind you, you're still you still have to go the extra mile to, you know, advance yourself and to prove your capacity more than your male counterparts. Do, you know, you have to work harder to get there and to keep that position. As you it's really, because men and women were considered to be completely opposite, like men were the rational creatures capable of higher thinking and academic pursuit and women were nurturers and mothers and imaginative creatures prone to hysteria, things like that. Let's see exactly how they spoke about them. You know, women, women had the creative impulse, but they're also too imaginative and emotional to sort of harness those qualities into our interior rational way to make something more, more worthy of the academy, for example, I don't really know how to explain it. It's, yeah, they couldn't harness all of that stuff that creative people have, in a way that was balanced and reasoned enough to achieve, you know, a great work of art. Yes, it's like the eyes of men. Yeah, in the eyes of men. And so that's an even in art criticism, like, we do have documents where art critics are saying, oh, you know, this particular artists would be much better, you know, doing their paper flower cutouts, because they were looking at crafting. And this is where our denigration of craft comes from, too. That's associated with the feminine stuff. So they're kind of I don't know, you're not really good enough to be a professional painter, just go into your crafty stuff instead, you know, is that hierarchy? It's very gendered? Yeah. I think that we are getting better at that. But I think that kind of does still persist, sometimes. So these women that you talk about that went to the academy, where they mothers as well. This is where I'm not, I don't know a lot about their biography. I know that LeBron had one daughter, and I think her name was Xian. And she actually appears in lots of her portraits. I don't know their story very well, I think. I think this little girl was in lots of portraits. And so she would have been very close to her mother at that time. But for some reason, I think, later in life, their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm not really sure why. But you know, she was her mother was painting her, so she was subject matter. And there are, of course, other artists, especially in the 20th century, who have used and postmodern period as well, who have used their children as part of their artworks. Yeah. Is that something I'm really interested in? Is that that this challenge between their work and their role as a mother, is that something that women artists have faced in the past? I mean, I'm sure that it can you say you can you say it in the work? Or does it come out in the work or is it? Is it something that you've you can research? That makes sense? There's the Oh, wow. It's like, you know, there's so many different ways of being an artist, and there's so many different ways of being a woman in so many different ways of being a mother. So I think, like, for example, Barbara Hepworth, I'm just pulling out examples as I think of them. Barbara Hepworth was a sculptor and her work is quite abstract, but I know that she, she really considered being a mother integral to her practice. I don't know a lot about her work, but I know that she did consider her children to be as, like very influential on her like she loved being a mother and she thought that was really important to her practice, but also know that there are lots of artists like feminist artists who would have loved to have children but didn't have children because they knew having children would have a big, like a detrimental impact. on their career, so there are artists who have consciously made the choice not to have children. Louise Bush was another artist and nothing she had five children. She, again thrived on being a mother, I'm not sure how that shaped her practice for her. But there's another artists birth Maura, so an impressionist artist, and her daughter is, again, provide subject matter for her. We have lots of images where you see her daughter making an appearance. And I think she, I think her daughter was a model for other artists as well. So in, in lots of ways children have been subject matter for artists. In other ways, they've just, you know, I suppose, been around and provided their mums with energy. And, you know, I don't Yes, it's fair, it's very different for all artists, I think. I have friends who are mothers and artists now and I know, a couple of them motherhood is a very, like, it's a central theme in their practice. And their work is very specifically about motherhood and about their children. So I think I kind of get the sense that it's easier to make that kind of artwork now than it has been, like in the early modern period, for example. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say, too, is just going back to the early modern period, there's lots of artists. This is another thing that's really sad. There's lots of other artists who are very, very good painters, but a lot of their work has been lost or destroyed. So a lot of their work we just don't even know, we don't have record of and there are other artists working in the Baroque and Renaissance periods, for example, where their workers that we were starting to learn now their work has been mis attributed to male artists. Ah, so there's a lot of stuff we just don't know yet. Hopefully, we do uncover more. But, you know, there are other artists who are very prolific, and then they have children, and, you know, their career finishes, or slows down, or some artists have been fortunate enough to have husbands who were very, very supportive and have nurtured their careers, other artists. I can't remember her name. Now. I read this in passing the other day. She was a composer. She was forbidden to practice by her husband when she had children. So she just stopped. And I think I'm trying to think of her name. It's just escaped me, which is really terrible. She was associated with the Bauhaus artist. So I think what happened with her is she stopped practicing. But it took over a period of years, it took her an enormous toll on her health and well being. And for some reason, I think her husband was convinced, actually, no, you need to let her do her work again. And so she did do some work before she died. But she lost a lot of time. Yeah. Well, that's what her name was. I have, I'll have to go back through the book that I was reading the other day and find her name for you if you're interested. Because she's Yeah, composer. I think her husband, I'm not sure if he was an artist, but he was definitely associated with the Bauhaus school, which is designers and artists in Germany. Yeah, I don't. It's just something that I came across the other day. I don't know very much about that about her. But that just kind of really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. terribly sad. So I think there's a lot more we could we could say, but it hasn't been written and recorded or research yet or hasn't been found yet or it's been raised. Yeah. In terms of your identity, as a mother, I asked my guests this question about, I do the air quotes, is it important to you to be more than just a mom and I say just a mom, because I know that's not a correct statement? Is it important for you to keep that identity and not become mum? Just mum? Absolutely. Um, for me, it's vital. And I think, again, as I was saying earlier, I think that's a really big part of my mental health. You know, being an artist, I guess is at the core of my identity. And I think it always has been, but also in terms of my children looking at me, I think, you know, it's important for both of them, not just my daughter, but for my son to to see that, you know, women, even in their roles as mothers and nurtures they're multifaceted multi dimensional beings and, you know, we have our own interest, not just career or art was have our own likes and dislikes and responses to things, we have our own feelings around stuff. You know, things impact us as much as they impact someone else would we hold everything together, but we need to be looked after as well. And sometimes we need to look after ourselves. And you know, that's critical. It's absolutely critical. And, you know, one day, we're not going to be doing the, the, the intense hands on mothering where our children are so dependent on us, they're going to go and live their own lives. And, you know, they need to, they need to acknowledge that we have our own lives going on as well. And we need to acknowledge that we need to take that we need to hold on to that. Because otherwise, you know, there's so much I think there's so much potential loss, if you don't, hold on, hold on to something for yourself. And I can't imagine what that would be like. Yeah, and I also feel like, as a, as a mother, myself, I never wanted to be that authoritarian, just just mum kind of person, I want it to be a friend, I want it to be someone that they would, you know, feel comfortable coming to want to have around later on in life. And they're doing their own thing, too. You know, I don't want to just be the mum who does everything for everybody. I want to be the person who is counted on as a friend as well. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's motherhood Being a mother is a multi dimensional thing. It's not just you do the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning, taking the kids to school, changing the nappies. It's much more than that. Like, there's, there's a whole unique, amazing individual underneath all of that. And that person still needs to live. Like, you know, and they need to, they need to thrive like everybody else does. Yeah, it's important, obviously, important to you, for your children to say that in you to recognize Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, they're not getting the best of me. And I know, of course, there are days, they're not getting the best of me because I'm tired and worn out. And I haven't given myself enough time or something. But that's my responsibility. Right? Like, you know, I can't, I was saying to my cousin who's a single father the other day, he's really struggling, being a single dad in lockdown sometimes. And I said to him, like, if you don't, if you don't put self care at the top of your list, you can not be the best dad for your child. Long term. You can't sustain it like, you do have to look after yourself. Yeah, whatever. And that looks different for everybody. Yeah, no, but let's see. Yeah, absolutely. I really value the stay at home mum, as well, as much as I do the working mom, you know, I think we've got to be careful of, not sort of, I worry sometimes that we diminish the role that mums have if they choose to opt out of a career because they want to stay at home. I think that's a really powerful, meaningful, valuable thing to do. I think that's incredible. I know that I'm not capable of that. But also know that mums who are doing that, even if they're not working in a job that's paid and acknowledged, it's more important for them to maintain a sense of their identity, because, you know, otherwise, there's a danger of losing themselves in that. And then when their kids leave, like I was saying, what's left, you know, they need to have something that's just for them for themselves. Do you know what being a mum is? bloody difficult. It's probably one of the hardest jobs in the whole world. It is the hardest job in the whole world. For lots of different reasons. I think like it's, it's incredibly tough. And I think yeah, like I was saying, I think doing the stay at home mom thing is the toughest gig of all and I know that I'm not capable of that. I have an immense admiration for people who are doing that. They deserve everything, they deserve all the credit and they deserve that timeout and they deserve being looked after and acknowledged and honored and supported and I worry that they don't get that enough. I worry that even as women we don't give them that enough so I guess then that sort of leads me into the the concept of mum guilt. I think after you know, after the podcast that you're doing, I think you're becoming the expert on this. So I would love to know what you think on that. I think you know what I think I know that I've definitely suffered mother guilt for a different reason. There's a couple of strands of thinking here that I've got. So I think the whole thing with mum do I think, is reflective of a deeply patriarchal society that we live in. And what I'm going to say is I don't think that it's, and I'm trying to be careful about how I word this. I don't think it's necessarily men who are telling us to feel guilty. I feel like we're doing that to each other. I feel like I'll give you an example of this. When I, when I had my children, I was super, super lucky. I was able to breastfeed really easily, like I had absolutely no problem, I loved it. And it was, it was just like, falling away, oh, when my cousin had a child, not long after, and she found it incredibly difficult to breastfeed. She tried everything she could think of. And she was in agony. And I don't really know the particulars, but I know she really, she gave it a good crack. And she ended up having her her baby bottle fed and this nose. So this is like 18 years ago, too. It's not like yesterday. So I need to say things are changing. But, you know, the pressure and the judgment and the criticism that she got for that choice came from other women. And she really struggled with that guilt for a long time of like, I can't feed my child, the way everyone's telling me I should be. I'm not a good mom. And I'm like that, that is, to me, one of the most damaging things that we can do, is judging each other and not supporting each other. I think living in a patriarchal society means that if you're socialized as a heteronormative, woman, or girl, you're also taught that we're in competition with each other in lots of different ways. And I think that comes out in motherhood too. Like, if your child isn't sleeping all the way through at six weeks, you're doing something wrong. If you take a day home by yourself, and you're not working, you're doing something wrong. If you can't breastfeed, you're doing something wrong. If you don't give birth, naturally, you're doing something wrong. So I think I really feel like certainly for me, that's where a lot of guilt initially came from. I don't really do that anymore. Like, sometimes I kind of struggle with putting myself first like I bang on about that all the time. But I'm not always very good at doing that. But you know, my guilt, or my shame, I shouldn't say shame came from experiencing postnatal depression with my son. You know, I felt such shame for that. Because I really, at that time, I don't believe it anymore. But at that time, I really felt like I wasn't a good mom. And you know, and I think the other thing is, it's not always what we say to women is what we don't say to women, you know, we at that time, I know it's different. Now, I know it's changing. But at that time, people weren't really talking about postnatal depression, and I was terrified. I thought, you know, what, if I tell my doctor that something's not right, I think they might say that I don't deserve to have my child. Like, you know, I was honestly I was, I was petrified. And then, when things kind of settled down for me, and I was on medication, I just had that overwhelming shame. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing I'm not doing a good enough job. Like, I'm not as amazing as that lady over there with her five kids is, you know, like, was so in love with this little baby, but I couldn't get it right. And something was wrong, and I couldn't understand it. So I think, yeah, I think that's the closest that I've really had to that full on mom guilt. And I just kind of feel like, we need to do more as women to encourage and support each other. But talk about and this is why I think your podcast is so amazing. We need to share all the crap stuff because there's so much crap stuff. And I'm sorry, being a mom is amazing. And it's an honor, it's a privilege, but there is so much crap in it. There's so much stuff that there's so much stuff that hurts there's so much stuff that's ugly and demoralizing and upsetting. And so many so many things that other people just don't understand. But you know, we need to at least acknowledge it and we need to, we need to tell our own children. You know what? Childbirth isn't easy. And it's okay, if you feel like shit after you've had your child like it's okay. Like all of these things are okay. And it's normal and a million other people are doing it too. Because it's so and you know, like I I learned so much from that experience, and I think it's, it's certainly taught me things so that hopefully I can be a much more empathetic ache mother friend, whoever I need to be for someone else, you might go through that. But, you know, like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and all that. It's, I don't know, I just kind of remember how confusing it all was too, because I desperately wanted my son like, he was a baby I literally prayed for, like, you know, I wasn't interested in becoming a mother for the longest time. And all of a sudden, I desperately wanted and wanted to have this baby. And he didn't come for a while. And then when he did come, and then I had him and I was looking at his eyes, I was absolutely honestly, had never felt such love. But at the same time, I was petrified out of my mind. And I was really sad and anxious. I felt like oh, my God, I've, I'm going to break this thing, I'm going to do something wrong. And then the more I plummeted into that, anxiety and depression, I thought, if I say anything to anybody, they're gonna take my baby. Like, though, in the very, very early days before I told my doctor, I thought someone's going to take him away from me. And I think that's why I didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't want to be judged. I did talk to my parents about it. I talked to, you know, my son's grand grandmother about it as well, very early on. And they're the ones who actually kind of steered me over to the doctor to get some medication. Thank goodness, because I wasn't in a very good way. So and, you know, that, yeah, it takes a really long time to get your head around that and a really long time to, to say those words. But there's so important. And I think this is another reason why I think your podcast is so immensely valuable, because I think if someone had just said to me, 18 years ago, it will be okay. And you were going to do great. And you're going to do all these other things, too. I think they would have made a big difference. And you're not a bad mom, and you're an amazing Mum, you just need a little bit of support like everyone does. So yeah, thank goodness, I think I think things are changing. I think we are starting to talk about mental mental health in the mainstream. Much more than we did, but yeah, geez. First time mother. That's crippling. It's really crippling. But again, I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a real depth of knowledge and wisdom that comes from that experience two things. I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter at all. I had the postnatal depression with my son. And that was a very traumatic birth. And I think, yeah, maybe it was a PTSD thing. The I think the reason maybe I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter is because I said, I'm not doing that. Again, I'm having this as Aryan thanks. Because, you know, I sustained some injuries and things as well. And like that was that was quite an ordeal for me. And I think because I made that decision early that might have had a bit of an impact. But I remember with my son too, like, there were nights, but I just didn't sleep. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, that was a big thing. I just did not sleep and not not because he was a bad sleeper, but I literally couldn't sleep. And I remember one of the nurses who came to the house to check in on me and stuff. She said to me, oh, when you can't sleep, why don't you just use that time to do your painting? And I was just like, I can't because I literally was paralyzed. I felt sometimes like I was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a really hard space to be in and being creative. I couldn't read a book. Like I honestly couldn't read a book. So I think to create work when you're in that space is I think it's probably impossible. It's like you barely functioning. It's like having a shower was just like, wow, this big achievement. Yep, absolutely. When you say it now, it seems like so unreal. But well, the energy that that takes is incredible. Like, yeah, it's something that you just can't be understated how, how debilitating that is and how we really need to support people who are in that I was gonna say I've always been very opinionated. And having that experience on these kinds of issues has made me even more opinionated and more vocal. And, you know, sometimes I get quite angry. And I think because it's like, yeah, I know what that's like. But you know, that to go back to that thing about the breastfeeding thing? Yeah, I had an awesome experience, I had an awesome pregnancy. But when I hear about someone who's not having that same experience, and who's really struggling and are being judged and criticized for become equally passionate about that, because I'm like, This is not okay. Like, you know, we need to be supportive of each other, especially women, we need to be supportive of each other, whatever our experiences and choices are, whether that's around motherhood, birth career, or not, whatever that looks like, whatever our choices are, we really need to, you know, support that. I think that's the most powerful thing we can do. That's interesting, by the way, that judgment? Yeah, it's interesting. Why do we judge each other like that? Like, is it because Is it is it going back to Days of having to compete for the affections of men or something? So you put other women down? So it makes you look better? Like, is it? Why do we do? I'm not, I'm not really I don't really know. But I have, I have read that in a patriarchal culture, like a Western patriarchal culture, women are socialized to be in competition with each other. And we are kind of socialized to think that there's limitations on resources and, you know, limitations on access to men and all of these kinds of crazy things. Like if you want to, you know, I mean, it goes back into history to like, you look way back into history, like it was really important to be engaged by a particular time in your life. And if you weren't engaged and married, it was a serious problem, you know, and so people, like, even if you watch Jane Austen Oh, yeah, there's always threads, you know, women are in competition with each other, because they want to get the best pick of the of the man to have them, you know, to validate who they are, as women and people in society, it's crazy. I think we've been doing that for a very long time. And not just not just around men, I think, you know, just as we frame ourselves as women in relation to each other and our positions in society, we might not think that consciously, but I think that's embedded in our collective consciousness or something somewhere, it's like, you know, a baby cries. And we have that no one says, When your baby cries, you have to do the thing you are compelled, like, your, your urge is to go out and check your baby, pick it, pick the baby up and do particular things. Because that's what you're built to do. And I think there are, I mean, we're animals, I think these things are so deeply embedded in our primal brain and our collective consciousness and all those things that I'm not familiar, like, I don't have enough knowledge on that. But I think that's got a big part to do with it. But I think we, you know, we're acknowledging it and talking about it. So hopefully, that's a really big step in starting to dismantle some of that stuff. In all of the things that I've said, I should also, you know, definitely point out that in all the the competitiveness and things that we've been talking about, there are some amazing communities that you find that you do find for yourself, where you do get that support, and that friendship, which is absolute gold. And, you know, for me, I've found that with two, two women when my son went to kindy. So it took me took me a long time to find that, but, you know, I've maintained those friendships for the last 14 years now, and I always will, you know, it's incredible. What we've, you know, the friendship that we've given to each other this whole time, it's unconditional, you know, like, it's it. Yeah, it's really unconditional. So there is there is all of that richness and beauty there, too. But, yeah, I really like it, if that became the norm, like if that was the biggest story, and the other things that we that we've been discussing were, you know, rare incidents. We can talk about, you know, what in history that used to happen, and yeah, exactly. The you know, what you're saying now to about the competitiveness thing, I actually get such a thrill. I'm always so excited when I see anybody regardless of gender, or whether or not there a mum or dad. I get such a kick out of seeing people take their own initiative and do their own stuff and make their own things happen. And so, yeah, I'd like to tell you that You know that you're taking your own initiative to do this podcast. When I, when I first found out about it, I was so excited about it because I thought, wow, this is, this is something that you're doing. It's your own project because you care about it. And it's meaningful, and it's, you know, sustaining you, it's wonderful, but you're also giving such a gift to so many people. So well done. That is a fair, that's a very, very long way away from being competitive. That's, that's incredibly generous. And it's really wonderful to see. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Okay, it's exciting. It's wonderful. And and you know, what, it's actually a really brave thing to do to, to do a podcast and to share and, you know, to talk to people about all this kind of stuff. I'm at the moment, I'm taking some time out to experiment and explore in my practice, because this year already I've had working for exhibitions. And I've been teaching and studying as well. So I'm sort of on a little bit of a, like, I've got little bits of paid work happening. But in terms of exhibitions and stuff for the rest of the year, I don't have anything on the go. At the moment, I'm just taking this time to play with ideas and materials in my studio, and have a bit of a break to probably for exhibition. Yeah, oh my gosh, though, they were amazing. But because of COVID, it meant that some exhibitions were pushed forward. And all it was all just in the timing. So, you know, three exhibitions, were pretty much back to back. And to two exhibitions that I had opened in the one week, that was pretty intense. It was pretty intense. And so it was kind of like, Yes, I need time to recover. I also need time to just play. Like, I just need to play with my materials. And I've already I've already got ideas for my next series of work, but I just want to explore the potential of different techniques and materials at the moment. Um, to kick that off, we then just take a bit of a breather you know, Oh, tell you something really funny. I'll never forget this. When I was doing my PhD, I had to, I was doing full time study. And then I had to go down to part time and stuff. So my PhD took a little bit longer than I thought it would. And I remember my son said to me, one day, see that little girl walking around over there. And that was my daughter. He said, that's your PhD. Because I, when I was doing my PhD, six months in, I fell pregnant, I didn't realize that this was going to happen, fell pregnant, and I had my daughter and I'm still doing my PhD when she was like, three. You know, I kind of submitted not that long after but he was like, there's your PhD running around over there, mom, and I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was and it was quite startling, because you already knew like I was when he said that I was sort of like in the process of winding it all up. And you know, I was on the homestretch. But he was like, there she is. A PhD. That is gone. Yeah, it's like, making visible the the length that it has taken me to do this thing. Yeah. And all the effort that you've put into here, rather than the PhD. It's just yeah. That is hilarious. Thank you very much, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat and all the best with everything you've got coming up. Thank you so much, Alison, and congratulations on a fantastic podcast and wish you all the best for the future in this fantastic project that you have. It's been really fun talking to you today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Allison.

Alicia Lis Verso Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep01 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome to my new podcast. I am thrilled to have you here! My first guest is Alicia Lis is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter & guitarist, high school teacher, and a mum of 2 boys. We chat about how she manages the different 'compartments' in her life, how important support is from others and the importance of modelling hard work to her children. Alicia Soundcloud / Youtube / Instagram Podcast instagram / website Alicia's music used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. got a hold of me and my guest today is Alicia verso who goes by the stage name Alyssa Liz. She is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter, and guitarist. Welcome to the podcast, Alicia. Thank you so much, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here part of your podcast and your very first one too. Yeah, so exciting. This is this is great. Thank you for being here. So for those who may not be familiar with you Angel music, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, what can I say I'm mature age. And I'm just like me and I'm 40 I'm actually few days shy of 41. And I'm just after a really long break getting back into the music industry. I started studying when I was you know, sort of straight out of high school, studied music and had you know, high hopes and ambitions to to write music record it which I did start doing and gigging and I started doing that, you know, started doing both gigging with a, you know corporate duo slash trio. And also also with my original music with a with another artists that I met at, at TAFE we would do you know, our own stuff together. And she played bass I play guitar. And yes, I took a took a long break. And so really, my my music is to start off with was very contemporary, kind of, you know, sort of you think back in the early sort of 2000s It was very much like indie type bands where, you know, a lot of the music and listening to were musicians that play their own instruments that wasn't there was sort of starting to merge using electronic looping but not as much waves I love Joel are crowded house, Pete Murray, just trying to think I loved you too, back then. Yeah, just a lot of a lot of those types of that genre. And then when I started studying, it was very much a fusion of jazz and blues with a little bit of contemporary element to it. But that overdoing like going to VCA or you know, studying classical, yeah, that is, you know, you know, how can you not, you know, two years of studying that got quite influenced with jazz and blues and so there was like, one of my songs that were quite heavily influenced the shape up with that genre. And, and so, yes, I've kind of got a little bit of that influence now. But a lot of the stuff that I've written was 15 years ago, and so now I'm, you know, looking now forward to start writing some new material. So that's kind of being a bit of a challenge to find the time. So you and I first met on Instagram a few months ago, through and online Stage Door singing competition, which you won. Congratulation mask. Fantastic. And then you also had some success recently with your song shape up which won the June competition on radio Easterns Talent Search. Congratulations on that too. You've won a bit of a roll at the moment. No, absolutely. And three's a charm. I'm wondering what number three is going to be? To buy a lotto ticket maybe. So tell us a little bit about your family, then you kids and that kind of thing? Yeah, well, I've got two boys. I was actually just talking to Harvey this morning. I had I had a vivid dream, and I never have them. And I was pregnant. In my dream. So I was like, no, no. Unless, unless, you know can be I can audits a girl. But still, I'm done and dusted. So two boys, Max is going to be 11 in a bit over a week. And I've got Jackson, there's a bit of an age gap between the two who's five, almost five and a half. And so both at school, which is great. And so I've got hubby as well, who's really super supportive of my, my aspirations on on, you know, taking a leap into back into the music industry. For myself. And yeah, we've been together for over 2020 years now, I think 2322 23 years, something like that. That's great. You see music a little not at all. So I'm a bit of a lone wolf in the family. None of my boys have been really super interested in music ALA. Yeah. You never know. So that that style of competition the stage or being all online, did you find that that really suited you with the kids being at home? Or are you finding a bit easy to get out? More these days? Look, I really, I enjoyed it being at home. And like, with like me saying my husband's very supportive. He, he really, if I need to, like even just for this afternoon, if I really need them out of my hair, you'll either you know, take them out like he has today or if you know, obviously when we're in COVID We couldn't you know, he just made sure he just keep him sort of occupied. Yeah, look either ways. Fine. Like I know, I did have a gig in May. And so that was, you know, that was fine too. He's happy to stay home and look after them. He's really good. But yeah. As long as I just said right, this is what I communicate with him and say this is what's happening. This is my cut off. This is what I need to do. This is sort of roughly how much time we just kind of you no work he just helped with working around that with me. That's so good. That's so important, yeah. So obviously, you've you've talked a little bit about your life before you had children. Your music was a really big part of your life. It was you've studied your work as a music teacher delve into a little bit more about was it always your dream to do music? Sort of how many how many hours we you'd be out of the house doing your gigs? Was it it? Was it like almost a full time sort of commitment to music? Or kids? Yeah, definitely. I mean, with the study, being immersed in it. I even my part time job was at JB Hi Fi so it was a big? Yeah, I would have to say even with my spare time on weekends, I would spend that year rehearsing either for the, for my, you know, the corporate duo, or even with my friend as well. So or, you know, or weekday, because when I had time during the week when I was at uni, so yeah, it was pretty much like night and day it was yeah, all about all about music beforehand. I didn't really take music sort of seriously up until very late high school. So until I was in VCE. And it was like yeah, this is what I want to do halfway through year 11. Though I did pick up my guitar and start learning from the age of 15. But then voice came later. Yeah. Yeah. But before that I wanted to become an actress. Yeah, right. Either and all that. And I got really crappy crappy marks. And I was just absolutely shattered. I'm certain that that I can't. I'm not made for this, obviously. So enter music now that was yeah, that became my passion. Yeah, yeah. So when you were pregnant with your first child, did you sort of find performing wise was a bit more challenging obviously, as your body was changing. I know I had a lot of issues with breathing, I struggled with struggle to work out how to breathe properly, my diaphragm while I had a baby sitting on sort of find that sort of stuff, or how do you go with it, I stopped Well, before I got pregnant, because once I started teaching full time, I just thought I'll do teaching. And that can kind of be sort of, you know, something that I do while I, I, you know, try and do my music on the side. But once I started full time, forget it. Like it just really took over my life. And so about a year and a half after teaching was when I felt pregnant. And I remember when my firstborn was six months old, I was taking in that. And the guy, this guy, Chris, that we used to do the duo with him, he called me and I was in the middle of having my nap while my son was having it. And I was just completely bombed out. And he's like, Oh, hey, guy wanted to see what I was up to. And I'm just like, Oh, I've just I've had it. I'm just like, Oh, I'm so tired. I just, you know, it was just like, there was just no thought in my mind at any time soon to get back into any sort of like singing or, you know, in music, you know? Just wasn't on the radar. Not on the radar. No, hit me like a ton of bricks having the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a lot of support around you at that time? Do you have your family in in Melbourne with you or I had my mum is as well as my hobby. My mum is so super supportive, like even now. I see her every week. And even now that I'm full time work, and she's retired, she'll come, you know, one day a week and to kind of give me a hand around the house, let's say, yeah, really, really good. And yeah, she's also supportive of what I'm doing as well. So yeah, even with that support, I was just like, yeah, just exhausted. But yeah, no, it wasn't till a couple of years later that I Yeah, there was there was reasons why. I wasn't I wasn't 100% Well, I wasn't sure what was going on. Because I know I'd go to mothers groups, and, you know, the mums, you know, we all say we're tired and all that sort of stuff. But the mum still had like energy to go out for coffees and things and I just be like, Nah, I just don't have that energy. And I thought there's something a bit not right, you know, like, why am I just so exhausted at all I can be bothered to do is just take care of my kid and just not have that energy to do anything else. You know, muster the energy to go to, to mother's grief, and even that was like, a chore for me too. And so I remember going to the doctor's because I'd get quite sick quite often, and it would take a really long time to shake off at cold. He said, we'll do a bit of a test for you. Like, you know, like, I'll ask you some questions and I didn't know what he was wearing. He's getting at but he was asking me some questions and and he kind of gave me a little number out of a number. I don't know if it was at a 10 or whatever. And he said, oh look, you kind of like borderline you've got anxiety and a bit of postnatal depression, but it's not. It's not extreme, but it's you know, it's there. And sometimes that can have an impact, you know, on your well being and also your, your immune system and so, okay, so I got like, one of those those six packs, we get like the six free canceling sessions. Yeah, yep. Yeah. So I went to those and, and look, it was good. It was good to talk to someone and but I was still very tired. And then with more tests, and I don't know, there was something I read in a book. And it was cat it was about Candida and Candida albicans which is when you have Have an overgrowth of the bad bacteria in the stomach versus your good bacteria? Yeah, that can just throw everything out of whack your immune system and you're constantly tired, because I remember I would find it really difficult to, you know, to sleep as well. And it was kind of linked all the way back to also when I realized now when I had Max, my first that I was, I had an intravenous antibiotic when just before I had him and I think that that massive amount of antibiotics that was pumped into me, just completely ruined my gut bacteria. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just like in this, like, like, my head was in the clouds for like two years until I finally realized what it was because I saw so many doctors that when I went to a nap, I went to a naturopath, this time that specialized in it. Like, right, yep. did another test to confirm it. I think it was a saliva test. And that confirmed that I had really high levels of the Candida and he's like, right got me on a Candida diet, which was cutting out all sugar or dairy or weight. It was nuts. It was first month, I was even more exhausted. And I was like, what's going on? I should be feeling better. And I said know what it is. It's all the Candida that's dying off. And it's actually pouring out all the toxins in your body. It's releasing it, but your body's not obviously not getting rid of it fast enough. So yeah, this is one thing after the other. But my God probably took me about a good year. I've kind of feel like I was normal again. Yeah, right. Yeah. So there was just like, I was just in survival mode. Yes, literally living living day to day just was to do Yeah, it was a really crap. And it was like, I was back at work just two days a week because that's all I could do. And even the days I was at work, I was just in a in like, like a daydream. I don't know, I don't even know I just functioned it's and I think because of that. I've put a lot of pressure on my adrenal glands as well. So everything was just all over the place. So I think that's why I had such a big gap because my after getting over that I just My aim was if I was going to have another child, I'm going to be the healthiest that I can be so that when I do have another child, I'm not going to have to go through all that again. So after you had Jackson then how was your health then? Ah, heaps heaps better. Um, I had lost because I put on 20 kilos my first so I've lost all of that. I'd actually stayed off the wheat and the dairy and the sugar because I found when I went back on it again, I got the Candida but I knew the signs and then I was like, right, go back onto the Candida diet again. So now I don't leading up to the pregnancy and even now I don't have wheat. I don't very it's I cut back. Like I don't have sugar. It's very rare. And dairy I still have a bit of that on my health was so so good. energy levels were a lot better. Weight was a lot was better. I'd still do put weight on and just the way my body is when I'm pregnant. And I had a natural birth. I didn't have any I was like no, no, no, they wanted to pump antibiotics into me again or like not not having it. Especially after what I went through last time so yeah, it was heaps heaps better. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. Stuck between your two boys after you did start to feel better after that sort of year afterwards. Did you? Did you look back into your music? I did, actually. But it took a complete sideward turn in that when Max was about three. So when I started feeling better, I was taking him to mini maestro's. I don't know if you've you've probably have many monasteries in South Australia In Australia wide. Yeah, I have heard of it. Yeah. So it's like a little preschool music program. and fill up for toddlers. And I was typing into that. And then I was taking him to another, another mothers group that was just run by us. And so all the activities were based on, you know, whatever we sort of come up with. And so I was like, Well, how about you know, like, you know, some some days, I'd bring in my guitar, and we can sing some songs. And then I started going, Well, why don't we make something Arty, something crafty. And then we can use that in the songs and get them moving. And then with that, I kind of come up with this concept called Creative tots, Australia, which is infusing new music, movement, and crafts, and started developing lessons, creating songs on GarageBand. So, you know, using my music background, as well as my educational background, as well. And, you know, made a logo, so had a professional logo made, I had a website made, I've still got the Facebook page up, which is one of the links in my Instagram, on my Instagram, LinkedIn, bio. And, yeah, I've bought instruments and asked and, like, everything that I needed, or my materials and, and stuff to promote myself. And I started going to, to like other play groups and saying, hey, you know, I've got this, this new this program, would you like me to come in and, you know, give it a trial. And, you know, give me some feedback on what you think, went to the local library and did the same thing. And I actually repainted carpet in my garage to make it into a space and I kind of went to audit all the foundational stuff. And I fell pregnant with Jackson. So yeah, I've got puppets on this one hand puppets as well. So like, yeah, I've got all everything's in the garage. Yeah. Everything's still there. But that's something another project that I'm gonna get to. It's sort of like it's waiting. They're just ready for you to pick it up when you're ready. Yeah, when I'm ready, not ready yet. There's a few things I want to do first, before I go back to it, that thing that I want, again, I did professional development as well. So there's another program by they're very well known in Melbourne. They do educational stuff for schools, books and music for pre pre schools and primary schools. I don't know if you'd call it a hood. Susie, and Phil Davis split up. Music is their program. So yeah, so I did a couple of professional development courses with them. So I put a lot into it in that sort of, yeah, three to two to three years. But before Yeah, I fell pregnant with Jackson. Like I was even about to do another course with them. When I was probably about booked in seven months, and got to seven months, it was in January, which is really warm up and I was like, Nah, I can't do it too much. So yeah, so yeah, definitely back in the music, but more in a different different way. Yeah. Fine doing that. That you you met your own need, you know, being involved in music. Did you sort of feel like you might have been helping the mums to like, did you see it as but you were also giving something back? To your community, I suppose. And helping mums? Yeah, yeah, I did. Actually, I actually. What else did I do? I was also ending the classes with meditation because I was in into the meditation at the time to incorporated that. And yeah, one of the mums in did mention that. She's like, I've never seen my child so relaxed, like that. Good way to kind of, you know, because you've raised them up was a good way to kind of settle them down and bring them down the end of the lesson. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you're giving some of these kids might not have had any sort of exposure to music and instruments and that kind of stuff before so yes, that's fantastic, too. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We talked a bit about support early you've got your husband and your mom within your own sort of work circle at the moment or your your colleagues your music, sort of circle. Do you have any others around you that share this sort of motherhood slash music experience, or do you find It's not really that anyone, I feel very isolated actually. Yeah, that I'm in my faculty is very small. So I've only got one other colleague who teaches music and she has no children. Look, actually, my instrumental teachers are actually no, I've got two that that have got children. I don't know, of one of them, my vocal coach, she, she's got, she's got one son, a young son, I haven't actually, you know, sat down and spoken with her. So this might be a really good thing to kind of open up with them. They, you know, how they, how they cope with their creativity, and yeah, balancing that with with kids. But otherwise, you know, like, I've got the downhill performance coaching that I've been part of, since October, August, sorry, August of last year. And I'm actually the oldest, it's sort of me. And then 25 is the next eldest, and then it's like, 19, and all the way down to eight. So even the teachers, they none of them have got kids. So I feel very isolated, even within that, that sort of performance coaching family that I'm part of as well. Yeah, it's interesting isn't like, you can be a part of something and share something so strong, but then that with them lacking that experience of of being a parent, because it can create quite a separation, I guess, at different types. Have you found sort of any times where, and even through your work that people just don't get it? When you're a mom and you need, you might need to change something or do something because your kids need you? Like, people don't understand they sort of, because they don't, they don't have children? They don't get it. They're like, Oh, really? Like, have you found that happen at all? No, not really, actually. I think most people are pretty good. And if if they haven't got children, they've got you know, close family members that have got young children, and they're quite understanding of seeing how they travel, you know, and how hard it is for them. Look, it's completely different when you've got your own like, you can't compare but you know, I think most of being pretty good. Let's take six and I am not your SWANA. So we've raised the topic, this concept of mum guilt that that phrase that society is created for us. How do you feel about that? The mum guilt and Yeah, funny that because I was at a podcast, a live podcast on Thursday night. It was filmed. I don't know if you've heard of the Melbourne housewives? Sure. Have you heard of Jackie Gillies? Yeah, I actually I saw your your Instagram post and I was jealous. I was hurt because Julia Maurice was on there was interviewed a Jackie Gillies was interviewing Julia Morris and Julia Morris, who is, you know, in the show beers, and she's got two kids of her own. And Jackie was interviewing her and asking her about, you know, how do you find the balance? And she's like, hard work hard works work times work. So there's no bloody difference. And she's like, do you get guilty you know, being off working, especially with the gig she's got at the moment with I'm A Celebrity Get celebrity out of here because she she goes overseas for that down South Africa. And she said, You know what I used to she goes, I just think guilt is bullshit. And you shouldn't have to put that on yourself. And it's taken me until I'm 53 to kind of realize that so it was like for me, it was really good to hear someone else it's almost like it validates your own feelings when you hear somebody else say it. Yeah, so you know what? It goes I used to come home and go Oh, give me you know, lots of cuddles a year worth of colors that I missed. And she said I don't do that anymore. I just come in and slip into the way like as if I hadn't been away for such a long time, you know, not make such a big deal out of it. So it was really good to hear that because hoes, I do. I do feel guilty, especially, you know, when I'm out. I'm out on a Monday night. I've gotten another lesson on a Tuesday. Or, you know, if I'm doing some recording here for my, for my music, and that's like time thinking that's time precious time I could be with my kids. So I do feel guilty about that, you know? Does that come from yourself? Or do you feel judgment from society or others? Yeah, I definitely think it's from myself because I'm someone who's very have a lot of high expectations. So I kind of feel like, you know, I knit with the time that I've got, especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go to work. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you? You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry. Don't stress ratio. Are you here ratio? Me? Yeah. Do you did kids have that? Do they get into music? Like they know that you're doing music do that? Are they interested in like, do they come to gigs or anything like that? No. Look, I'd love to one day when I suppose I don't look I've asked Max and if he wanted to come to come to them and he's like, nice he's not really too interested. Like that's my eldest because he's you know, to kind of sit still and not you know, muck around and run around the room. Oh, my youngest would come in in a heartbeat. I think there's one thing that does make me guilty more so with my youngest is that he every time I'm out, he'll say I miss you mom. I miss you. I missed you all the time. It's nice a stabs I feel like I have to you know cuz I'm just like, oh, no, you poor little thing. Oh, dear. They're lovely. Identity, obviously when when you're not a mum, you can be anything you want. And then you become a mother and and do you have this? Is a this concept of being more than I don't want to say just a mum because that's not true that we are so much more than just a mum. But do you feel like it's important to you to maintain your own identity outside of being a mum, so maintain? You're a singer, you're a wife, your teacher or that kind of thing? Is that something that's important? Yeah, I'm actually really good at compartmentalizing different parts of my life. Like, you know, when I'm a mum, and a mom and sometimes even like that, I could be doing things with the boys and I'm guilty of you know, being on social media, which is really bad. And but yeah, I'm pretty good. Like when I'm at school, I'm teaching mode when I'm at home. You know, Mum, wife mode, and when I'm doing my music staff, it's yeah, it's I'm musician Alyssia. You know, the less the less so I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing? Is that why you chose to have a stage name to separate the two worlds for yourself? Yeah, yeah. Just to separate the mum, I'd know the me to yeah, having something separate, to identify as, yeah. Do you think? Do you kids sort of are they aware of what you're creating? Like they they see that, that you're making music that you know, and do you want them to, to know that to sort of show them that mums can still do things, I guess? Yeah, that's a good question. No, they definitely know for sure. And they know it's a big part of my life. Like even yesterday. I was part of the Dan Hamill performance photo shoot for their for their marketing. They do every sort of three to six months and We were out in the city and I got them to come with me, so that they could see where I'm coming everywhere I go every week. Yep. And my eldest is like, ah, kind of on the way out in the city every week, because he Yeah, I do. So it's, it's good for them to see that good for them to see. I think it's a really good lesson for them to save you, you know, that you've got to put the hard work in to you know, to get to set your rewards. That nothing comes easy. And you do what you have to do. To get, you know, what it is that you want. I think that's like really important. Like, you can be, you know, get the best grades. But really, I think when it comes down to it, it's got to do with hard work and dedication. So I hope that they they see that they see that and then one day, that kind of brushes off on them. Yeah. Yeah, but ya know, they definitely, they definitely do know what I'm doing and, you know, keep them in the loop. I don't know how much they really sort of care. But I know I've the funniest thing I'll tell you there was one of my showcases, when we're in lockdown last year, I obviously had to film it online. And I'm all done up with you know, red lipstick because I was and massive eyelashes and dressed up. And I walked out from the bathroom to my study. And past all the boys and Mexico's my eldest, Pam, you look ridiculous. And then my youngest goes for Mum, you look really beautiful mum looks like creatchi just funny the dynamics. See what I do to you know, to put on you know, dressing up or part of it to put on a you know, a show or performance. That's gorgeous. My little one he often say that and say Ma'am, you look beautiful, and just sort of put my dressing gown on and I feel like rubbish. But he's there to pump me up. He's a good little fella. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to share any sort of any further sort of thoughts on any issues that we might not have? chatted about so far. I just I don't know, I suppose it's just the creating that balance. Because for me, it's always a massive, massive struggle, especially now that I'm working full time to find that balance. I'm really, really good at multitasking, but it's forever keeping. I feel like I'm always floating above water and be a bit lovely to know what others are doing. But just floating above water, to find that balance of time for myself for my music, for work, my work demands that I have demands as a mom. And I think the one thing I've learnt is that if you can have at least one or two people like I do that are really supportive and willing to help out like that's everything, you know, like I wouldn't really be able to do all this without the small support network that I've got, which is my mom and my husband. And any for anyone listening like it doesn't have to be a partner or a mountain, it could be an auntie or could be a really good friend or, you know, as long as you've got someone that you can be there to kind of take a bit of a load off or to help out so that you've got that time. Like even last year, in lockdown what kept me sane and sort of helped with time was we had a living or pair. We had someone who lived I mean, we had less space in the house. But I had an extra hand. So that helped as well. So it could be anything really Yeah, find find what works, what works for you get that balance to find that time to do everything is being pulled in all these different directions and you've got a sort of like you said before, I think that idea of sort of putting things into little compartments and trying to keep things separate. That's that's a really good idea. Yeah. So what do you have coming up in the future Alicea in the future because I have never formally released anything. That's a plan that I've got Within the next sort of six to 868 months so working with my current vocal coach she's got a plan put in place some goals over the next six months so one is well, you know writing up the setlist bio. Also going to record some new music, which I did mention earlier and use that pack that I that I got from the stage door comm to on that and get the video to go with, with the song that I can release and some, some a couple of professional photos that I can use for the release. And do a she wants me to do a launch show as well. So if not at the end of the year, maybe early next year. That's very exciting. Yeah. So you can find this year's original music on SoundCloud and YouTube and follow her on Instagram and all the links will be in the episode description. Thank you so much for being on today. Lisa, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been a pleasure. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Danielle Kloberdanz Netherlands born author S2 Ep52 Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Danielle Kloberdanz, an author based in San Diego, California and a mother of 4. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands. A child of 3, Danielle was always interested in children, and began baby sitting the neighbours children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families, and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development and went on to study Developmental Psychology at College, It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who was soon to be her husband, 9 months later in fact! They enjoyed a whirlwind romance, travelling Europe together, before being married and settling down. Her dream was to have 4 children, and Danielle was determined to make that happen, even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Danielle finally realised her lifelong dream of having 4 children, it was then that she slowly realised that she no longer existed as a person, and her idea of what being a 'good mum' meant, was challenged. Danielle released her first book Inner Compass Mom: Finding Peace and Purpose in the Midst of Motherhood in May 2021 which outlines her journey, and the life changing experience which lead to her new outlook on motherhood. **This episode contains discussions around miscarriage, premature birth, ** Connect with Danielle Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Danielle Clover Dan's an author based in San Diego, California, and a mum of four children. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands, a child of three. Danielle was always interested in children and babies, and she began babysitting the neighbor's children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development, and went on to study developmental psychology at college. It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who assumed to be your husband. Nine months later, in fact, they enjoyed a whirlwind romance traveling Europe together before being married and settling down. Her dream was always to have four children. And Danielle was determined to make that happen. Even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Daniel finally realized her lifelong dream of having those four children, it was then that she slowly realized that she no longer existed as a person. And her idea of what being a good mom meant was challenged. Danielle released her first book, inner compass mum finding peace and purpose in the midst of motherhood in May of 2021. The book outlines her journey and the life changing experience which led to her new outlook on motherhood. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and premature birth. Music you'll hear today is from Australian ambient music trio LM Joe, featuring myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John N is used with permission. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome along today, Danielle, it's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. I am intrigued by your podcasts and listened to several and Oh, thank you. I was excited to be on this one. Awesome. Wow, what time is it in your your zone? Well, we've just gone past 11:30am So it's quite a nice Sunday morning. Just nice and lazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. It looks sunny in your place. Yeah, I've had to close the blinds because the sun's coming in so much. It's like distorting, like how I look to you. Yes, I can see the glow. I have to do some artificial glow because the sun is going down here. So yeah. What's the what's the time there? It's 7pm. Right. Yeah. We just had the time change the, you know, daylight savings. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you right now. In San Diego, San Diego, San Diego, California. Right now you're in San Diego. But whereabouts did you start out in life? Well, I was born and raised in Holland, in the Netherlands. And I well, I moved to San Diego or to actually to Orange County, California, at the age of 26, barely 26. But before I met my husband, I you know, just did the normal thing and went to college to study developmental psychology in Amsterdam. And then I, I had, you know, a job for about a year it was hard to find a job in my field actually. And I worked at a temp agency for a year and that's when I met my my husband during that time. But yeah, so I just I, to be honest, I never really cared about a career. I just wanted to have a family and but what do you do? You're not just gonna sit around wait for some guy to come along. Are you, you know, you got to make some of your life and then hopefully it all happen. So I went to college, and I always loved babysitting, I loved hanging out with kids, I loved watching their, you know, development and how they think and how they would learn. So I was intrigued by children's. So developmental psychology really seemed to fit fit me. And so that's what I pursued. And yeah, until I met my husband, when I was 25. Actually, he got married when I was 26. And then I moved over to the United States. Yeah. So that that interest in wanting to become a mom, that intense drive, was that something cultural or something that you'd been exposed to growing up? Was that sort of the norm that you would grow up? Women would have children? Or was that something innate in yourself? Do you think? Well, my mom was a stay at home mom, until I was and I'm, I'm the youngest of three, I have two older sisters, and we're all a couple of years apart. And then my mom started working when I was in my mid teens, so to say, but I always just I wanted to be a mom, I wasn't sure what I would. I wasn't really sure what I was good at. Like in school, I was kind of an average student, like, nothing really stood out. The actually the best the subject that was that was easiest for me, was actually English, English is mandatory middle school and high school. And that was the only subject that was kind of came more natural to me. It turned out came in handy later, for sure. But I was intrigued by by science, but I wasn't very good at it. You know, like math, oh, my gosh, you know, just just not my thing. So I was like, What am I good at? What is my passion. And then I started babysitting the family across the street from us when I was like, 12, just an hour. So mom could do groceries, and I just loved it. And they, they had a big family, they ended up having five kids. And the parents themselves were from large families. So whenever there was a birthday party, I was invited, and the whole house was just filled with this wonderful energy. People were laughing and having wonderful comfort stations. And everybody just seemed happy. And I just wanted to create a big happy family for myself. And that's all I really wanted. I just wanted to be a stay at home mom, and I thought I would thoroughly enjoy it. Well, we'll talk about that later how to, you know, the life that I wanted happen and then, you know, it turns out isn't really as fulfilling as I had hoped it would be. talking us through, you know, you met your husband, you got married? Was it then like straight away? Right, let's do this. We're gonna have this family that I've always dreamed of. How did how did it sort of go from there? Yes. So when? So I met my husband at my sister's wedding actually, she was able, I mean, we all grew up in Holland. You know, we my sister, so but she was able to get a two year visa to work in the US. And during that time she met a guy decided to marry him. And so we went to the wedding. And that's where I met my husband. And we so we dated for a while. I mean, nothing happened at the wedding. People can read the story in my mom, they can read all the details and how all that went down. But basically, because I was living in Holland, we basically dated internationally and we traveled in Europe and we dated in you know, Belgium like Bruges and Antwerp and Barcelona and then basically, seven months, but no, it was eight months after we met he proposed to me in in Prague, so and the next month we were married so like within like nine months out After we met, we were married. And we, we read it, and then a couple months later was able to emigrate. Yeah, we were married in February. And I emigrated in April. So that all happened really fast. And so we decided to wait a little bit with having kids because also, my husband wanted to get his master's in business. So we decided to just get that out of the way before we'd have kids and enjoy a little bit more freedom before you know, babies would arrive and get to know each other even better each other nine months. But I will say, when you travel together, you get to know each other really fast. And it's either going to work or it's not. And it was going to work. So we we were just both convinced, you know, once you know, you just know. And we just celebrated our 24th wedding anniversary. Stories isn't it's a real love story. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. My husband comes from a large family. By the way, I was thrilled to find out when I met him, and we get to know each other, that my husband is one of eight children. He's number five. And I just loved it. And his older siblings already had kids. And so every family get together was just filled with, you know, that same kind of energy. The laughter everybody's talking, and just having a great time and bringing up both stories from the past. And just I don't know, there's just something about big families that I just love. And yeah, so he's like, Okay, you want to have kids? Okay, well, three, or fours. What do you have in mind? Well, first half of what I grew up with, so I guess, we'll figure out how to manage that my mum managed to, you know, raise eight children. I don't know how she did it. Anyway, yeah. So yeah, so you're pretty happy with four. Four is a good number. Well, it's an even though it I was I was the last one of three. So sometimes I did feel like, you know, my two older sisters would, would play together. And I was always a little too young or third wheel basically. So I always figured, you know, if possible, even numbers, and my husband loves numbers. He loves even numbers. He's, he's his background is in accounting. He's not he does production now. But he, he loves even balance. And it worked out well actually. Having two sets of kids basically. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. The first two are close in age. They're 19 months apart. And and then I felt tell you after the second one, because I always had complicated pregnancies. I was putting bedrest I had preterm labor with every every child. With the first one. I made it to 38 weeks, so I thought, well, maybe it wasn't that big of an issue. Maybe we'll be fine. So we tried for another one. And I, I got pregnant, fast. And so they're 90 months apart, but I was definitely put up that this again with the second one. So she was actually born five weeks, early at 35 weeks. But the fine she was in the NICU for like eight days, I think. And then she came home. So that was a bit like, oh, wow, that's, you know, you know, a second pregnancy and now you know, we are preterm here, but 90 months is is a bit challenging. I think any parent who has kids close in age knows that you probably will have to in diapers for a while. And then there's this sibling rivalry that really was an issue. And it's a lot. So I actually thought, oh, and at the time, my husband was really busy. Like he worked 60 hours a week. He traveled a lot. So I felt like I was a single mom. So after having to I thought there's no way You can have more kids, I can barely manage to what was I thinking, wanting to have all these kids, it's just no way. But as life went on, and the kids got to be a little bit older, and you know of the diaper phase and things like that, I did start secretly longing for another baby, there's just something in me that said, I don't want to be done, baby, there's something about having babies, and I don't know, I just didn't want to be done. And then actually, what happened was, I had, I had just regular you know, bloodwork done just a doctor's appointment to suit annual checkup, or whatever it was just like, hey, we haven't checked your blood. And while let's just see. And it turned out that my platelet count was really, really low. And so they sent me to a specialist. And the specialist said, this is this is not good. This is not a good situation, we got to figure out what's going on, because you could have an autoimmune disease disorder. It might be leukemia, it might be a mess. And I was just shocked. Because I mean, I did feel healthy, but you just never know what's going on, you just don't know. So I went back for several months to get checked and checked. And it turned out what probably happened was my birth control, which my naturopathic doctor said, like, why don't you stop taking birth control, because I had switched and sometimes that I guess, with some can be the cause of, you know, but the platelets start to stick anyway, not a doctor. So, but after several months, my blood started. So unlike normal levels again, and then I think it was like seven months. And my doctor said, Okay, I guess you're, you're healthy. It must have been that and, you know, you have a clean bill of health. And I remember sitting in my car after that appointment, and I just started crying like, oh my gosh, you know, like, this is like a miracle you because, you know, I had so much fear, like, what if I have a disease? What if I have something that's really life changing? Or, you know, potentially worse, so? And I remember it so well, that moment, because I think our youngest was about two or three, two years old. And I thought, Well, what do I want to do, you have a second chance of living healthy life. And I just remember, I know exactly what I want. And I want to I want to have more babies. And I want to stop living in fear. Because there are no guarantees in life. There really aren't, you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. So I figured I might as well go for my big dream and figure it out. And right at the time, I My husband was able to get the job in San Diego. And we ended up moving and everything became a lot more manageable and simple. And just a normal 40 hour workweek and a short commute. So that created space for us to have another baby and and then yeah, number girl number three came along and and then you know, I was ready like after yours ready paid. Let's do this. Let's have another one. Come on baby number four, right all in well. And then I think God or the Universe told me that so fast, not so fast. So I miscarried a couple of times, which was, which was really shocking to me that really, that really messed with me. Well woke me up actually, just to be the more I think the more grateful for how easy it was always for me to get pregnant. I would always get pregnant right away and the Healthy Kids and that's something you can never take for granted, you know. But I was going through a trying time of Wow. So I am feeling this really strong desire for a fourth child. That just felt so right to me like, No, we're gonna have four kids. This is what I wanted. This is what I'm gonna get. This is yeah, why wouldn't I Why wouldn't that happen to me or for me? And because of the two miscarriages and because I get pregnant And right away. I'm like, I need time I need to figure out, I need to get some answers. And I was already very spiritual. And what I do is I basically asked the universe guide me show me, what am I supposed to do? Give me some answers. And I knew I had to just give it some time and like, I'm not gonna, we're not going to try for a few months, several months, we're just going to wait and then try to think about it and just just give it maybe even half a year. And then we'll see if I get any signs if I changed my mind, I don't know. And then, pretty quickly after I decided actually, to just wait for a few months, I had this dream. I don't know if I should go to all these details. It's all in the book. But it basically was, I was at this convention. And there was this Native American Chief is very wise man that anybody had questions? He could answer like he was connected to God university could just channeled answers. And I was waiting patiently for my turn. And I kind of close my eyes kind of meditating is it was all in my dream. And, of course, I knew what I was going to ask like, are we meant to have a fourth child because I believe you can want something but I also believe it has to like, integrate with what maybe the universe wants for you. Or there's some mystery around that. Like, what is freewill? What is destiny? What are we meant to do here? So I just wasn't sure. Anyway, in my dream, when I finally it was my turn to ask this chief. I opened my eyes and it was kind of waiting. I had been it's gonna be kind of weird. The teeth was not there. But there was big poster that said, Yes, of course, you meant to have another child just don't wait. You need to try now. And I'm like, gosh, I woke up and I go, Oh, my gosh, it's here. This is it. And it's I don't know any any listener who who's worked with beans before and has had these guiding dreams, the energy that comes from these dreams. It's so different. You feel transformed, you wake up, and you know, this is different. This is not just oh, you're just processing your day today. Your worries, your anxieties. This is this is a lot more and you just know, this is it. I have to follow this. And yeah, sure enough, nine months later, we had our baby boy. It's like, I will live my life that way. If I if I'm stuck. I don't know. I throw my I know, there's an answer for me. And I throw it out there in the universe to God or whatever you want to call it. Just expect an answer to come and it always comes you got to learn to receive it. Yeah, that's it isn't about being open and allowing it to come and not questioning or not trying to second guess it's just what do you have to tell me and just waiting for it to come? Yeah, it does. If you Yeah, if you're open to it, you'll you'll get it? Yeah, I'm a big believer in that too. Yeah. So you hate we've got your four kids, you've got your dream. And how did things go from them? So I think moms who are listening can recognize that you know, the first couple of years the baby years toddler years, they're just intense It's physical. It's draining I mean, you don't sleep at night you're just chasing them they're starting to crawl I mean it's it's very demanding. And and then you think well, it's gonna get easier as they get a little older and it does it does get easier so that's what I thought you know, let's see had you know, first of all, after I had two kids that well it's gonna get easier it was very hard in the beginning with only 19 months apart, and then it got easier and then yeah, we added more kids so I thought okay, it's a lot I got a kid in elementary school and a preschool and then again, a toddler at home and a newborn but it's gonna get easier we're gonna get through this and many others have done this before me. And and and something Of course, they'll get easier. But there's also other things that got harder, you know, you're dealing with four kids with very different personalities, and every kid needs something else from you. And I think one of the frustrating parts is, you think you've figured something out with one kid, and you're like, Oh, this is great, it's working, this is working, my kid is actually doing what I needed to do, or everything is kind of flowing better, and you try to apply it to another kid forget, it's not going to work. Or two weeks later, a month later, the same system, same approach, it's just not working anymore. So you constantly have to, like reinvent yourself or something. And so, it, it was harder and or in different ways. And that feeling that I was looking for, and longing for, of like creating this, basically, this this house full of joy, these kids running around and being all happy and bringing me joy and liveliness, and you know, the whole purpose. It. Yeah, there were moments like that. Absolutely. You know, but not enough for me to say yes, now I have exactly what I wanted. Technically I did it looked like that on the outside, I have exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools, and something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time I would beat myself up stuffing so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy. Why are you not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. So that's when I went on my my journey of getting some answers of how I would make some changes in my life. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming four kids, you've outlined you know all the different stages. It's also demanding like weird. Did you actually fit in there? Did you feel like you were just that you existed only for your children? That was the only thing that you did was meet the needs of your children? Basically, yeah, I basically I was wanting to be moms. So now I know, the way I define being a good mom. And I'm connected to a lot of moms in especially in my neighborhood. And basically, I now know why I got so stuck and why I wasn't as fulfilled with my situations because I the way I defined what it means to be a good mom. And that's how we get stuck. That's how I got stuck. I will find being a good mom as someone who you got to give everything to your children and you just do everything, maybe not do everything for them. Because you know, they gotta learn to do things on their own. But, you know, you you create that family, you create the memories and you you know, you drop everything and you make sure to go to the birthday parties, and they go to try different sports and music and, and everything because you give give give because that's a bit mum. Because when you're a good mom, you make sure you you give them the right education and that they do really well in school. So you support all their education, their school, and if they need anything, you're right there talking to the teacher, whatever it takes to give this child and all these kids the best possible situation so that they can go to college and have a good career later on because then there'll be happy and then and I didn't realize that that's where it all came from until I had my spiritual awakening a few years ago. It was so because I thought if they did well and checked all the boxes, you know The boxes, graduating high school, going into college graduating, they're finding a good company to work for getting married, given me grandbabies, that will mean that I had done a good job as a mom. And when I had my spiritual awakening, I realized all the flaws in my thinking, because it's just not true. It's just not true. And it doesn't mean the opposite is true. Like, yeah, that. Because, yeah, we all influence our lives. Our kids, like they influence everybody that who we meet, who, whose lives we touch we do. But when I had my awakening, I saw that the picture is so much bigger than we experience in our day to day life, or at least that than what I had experienced in my day to day like, it's like, almost like I used to have tunnel vision. And then even the narrow vision I had of my life and life in general, was also tainted by this lens that was so colored by life experiences, by biases by judgments by your culture by a roll up. Yes. So when I had that, that awakening, which just basically happened in broad daylight in my kitchen, not being under the influence of anything, every reason? Why did you smoke? Me? And people can read about that in the compass. Mom, how that all went down? I won't go into details. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It shifted my perspective completely about everything that I believed was true, you know, waking up to all my false and limiting beliefs. Yeah, so when you had that, how did you then make the changes, I suppose like, it's, like you say, had this moment, and it's the sixth you've had this. I don't know what the word is epiphany, it's, you've realized how you can live your life in a different way to, to, to feel, you know, meet your needs, I guess, where you like practically, then like, how did you think, Oh, how am I actually going to do this? I suppose. That's a big question, I suppose. Yeah. Well, let me let me try to answer that. Because about a year before it had that awakening, I had already decided that I needed to make a change. I think my youngest my son was about three years old. And I already had recognized or acknowledged that. I'm not happy. Stop denying it. You need to make a change, because this is not going to get any better automatically. I have to, and I didn't know how I was going to make a change. But I realized what I was what I was craving was silence. I just needed solitude. Just silence. And not all that mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, you know, it isn't just constant. They always need as soon as they see you for a while. This has just always been fascinating to me. They're playing nicely in their room, the doors open. So you walk by often they realize, oh, we need more. I'm like, No, he didn't need me for like half an hour. You didn't need me. And I'm walking by. And it's awesome. They need you. They need you for whatever, they'll come up with something. They make it up on the spot. They just need mom. So anyway, I was really craving just solitude and I was craving reading books again. I was never a big reader. But I was always interested in spirituality and psychology. And I hadn't read a book in 10 years or so. Because if you have kids, you don't even want to I mean, I talked to a lot of moms who are going through that now. I mean, I I published my book a year ago, almost. And a lot of moms with young ones. They say, I have your book. I just I just can't get to it. I am like I hear you. I hear you. So I actually recorded the audiobook because moms can listen to audiobooks or podcasts while they're folding laundry or commuting to work or whatever. So yeah, that'll help solve that. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't read a book for like 10 years and then it was Breathing, oh, information and getting that inspiration again, about you know, so I started reading. And then what actually happened was, I was so intrigued by what I read. In these books, I started taking notes, I started journaling about all these amazing insights, it was like, it was like I had been asleep for 10 years. And also, there's a whole new world out there, that doesn't really have kids in it. And it's like, so amazing. And I was just inspired again. And so yeah, I that's how I started to come alive. Again, reading and journaling, and even doing a little bit of art, drawing a little bit of painting again, and just taking time for myself. There's a quote in the book where you say that you discovered parts of yourself that you had forgotten about. And that would have been just an incredible thing, like you say, you got back to painting and creating, did that sort of take you back to a time where you didn't have children? That? Yes, yes. And I think the biggest thing that has to do with creating art is its flow. You need and you need time to get into that flow. And it's when you have you have kids at home, forget it, every few minutes, you're going to be interrupted. And that's you just can't have that flow. So when when my youngest started going into peaceful kindergarten, I had just more time and of course, I was very realistic, I was very lucky that I was able to stay at home with my kids and that I didn't have to have a job outside of the home, a paying job outside of the home. So I could actually do that and take some time. To myself and just schedule it. I had to schedule it like schedule a block of a couple of hours a week to make sure would happen because it's still busy. You know, you're doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, just because the children aren't there. It doesn't mean everything's that long and keeps on coming somehow. Yeah. That's why it's actually funny when you say about laundry. That's like the Bane I think every mother's existence, it just doesn't stop. And one day I was complaining about it to my own mom, and she said, You know, one day you're gonna miss doing their laundry. And I was like, Okay, mom. All right. Like, I could see that that was saying, you know, you grow up and you move out and we miss it. So I thought, right, I don't take it for granted. Like you're saying before, don't take things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. It's okay. Yeah, I hear that too. From I remember people saying, well, one day you're gonna miss this man. Yeah, but I still am struggling right now. Exactly. You still got to do it deprived and still and I think it's okay. For moms who are hearing this are overwhelmed because I think all moms go through this stage, but they're just overwhelmed. And when somebody tells them one day, you're gonna miss it. So try to enjoy it and it's like, no, you're not listening to me. I'm overwhelmed. It's okay to feel overwhelmed and and don't feel guilty about it. It's it's part of the journey it's it's okay it's a lot raising kids is a lot especially in today's world it can be overwhelming Yeah. comes down to even like 20 years ago like very different worlds. Yeah, that's for sure. You briefly mentioned guilt there. I'd love to bring you to one of the topics that I chat to my mom's about on this show is mom guilt and I always put it in air quotes because I know it's it's contrived word that I feel like our our social media society has made this this special word hashtag mom guilt. Yeah. That you know that experience for you. How do you How can you sort of relate to that? That mum guilt. I have definitely had my my share of mom guilt a lot, actually. Especially when you have four different kids and some some kids just need more support than other kids and it's kids don't come with a manual for First of all, and when you really think about it, I think somebody wants told me that there are more parenting books than dieting books. And to me, that only tells you one thing, nobody has really figured it out yet either. Otherwise, there would be one book, and we'd all be reading it. And so nobody has figured it all out. We have to just keep learning as we go, you can read all the books you want before you have that baby, and you will never be prepared for what is to come. Once that baby is there, you never will be you. So you just do the best you can you figure it out. But in the meantime, we definitely go through things. I can't imagine any mom and sister in law, and like mom's figured it all out. But I think all moms go through guilt. You go to bed at night, and you're like, Why did I raise my voice? Why did I bite my tongue? Why did I say this? Why did I? Or should I should have done this or should have done that? I've done this. You're constantly doubting yourself, like wondering if you should have done this or that. And you just feel guilty? Like? Because you're not sure what to do? Because nobody? Well, nobody will tell you that's not really the right thing. Because we don't even well, sometimes we want people to tell us but on the other hand, one size does not fit all. It's a thing that I've been frustrated with before when you see titles of books. And it sounds like Oh 10 steps to raise and that begins or well adjusted kids. And for some foster kids who have well integrated brains, for example, the the like the sticker system or the reward system, you know, to get kids to maybe clean up their room and do their chores. For kids who have well integrated brains and rebalance, it works like a charm. It really does work well. But for kids who are not forget it, it's not that easy. And it's frustrating when when you have a child that is, you know, a little more complex. And I know there's a lot of moms out there who struggled with that, like, well, it doesn't work for my kid, or you need to have a lot more layers to that system of support, to have somewhat of an effect. But anyway, I kind of digress here, but back to mom guilt. So yeah, it's real because we feel we're not sure if we're doing the right thing. But when I had my awakening, instantly, it was gone, all the guilt was gone. All the guilt, it was gone, all the should haves could have they were gone, be saved did not matter at all. What mattered was what I realized, as I was showered with this incredible, unconditional love that washed away anything negative. Whether it was guilt. I mean, I felt forgiven, even though forgiveness wasn't even really needed, because we're not guilty. We we just it's not easy being a human being. It's that's just the reality that because we live in our mental world, and that's it gets very conflicted. There's a lot of conflict happening in our mental world. And then when he was in that state, the guilt was gone, because I knew, I knew with every fiber of my being that all I needed to do was the best I could and it was enough. We're here to learn to grow and to evolve as individual souls and also as a collective and, and bold influence. You know, we influence the collective and the collective influences. As it turns out, there's just no way around that. It's hand in hand. And he, yeah, I realized I had such a narrow perspective before that experience. And all of a sudden, my perspective was so big. And I realized we are not born a blank slate. You know, we carry the DNA of our ancestors. We are influenced by our culture, our families, our teachers, society. And then I also believe we we carry energies from possibly past lives. And that all of that merges into one, individual. And so now, as a parent, we are trying to guide children who come with, let's call it baggage. And some have some lighter baggage and others have navvy baggage. And we think we can fix it, we think we can, we're supposed to fix it, we think we're supposed to pull them up on that mountaintop. And it's like an uphill battle. Because we don't realize that we actually have very little control, we actually have, like, no control, we can control anybody else really not really. And the thing was, I was completely surrendering to whatever was happening. I was completely in the moment, the past was just not important at all, they would just the past was just stories that got me to where I was now. And anything that I've ever maybe felt bad about. It didn't matter, because their stories. And what mattered was now I experienced the pure moment of awareness, which is now which is really all we have, because the past is gone. And when you really think about it, the future hasn't happened, we really only have the present moment. And I live purely in the moment, I didn't worry any more about the future, because there is no use to be worrying about anything. Life just unfolds moment by moment. And I just surrendered. And I had this profound trust, that life just evolves, and unfolds mysteriously. And you don't have to understand at all, that was a big thing. You don't have to understand that though. Because you will never understand all of life, you will never understand this incredible masterpiece that we are part of the end, it was fine, I was fine with it. I just had this deep trust, that somehow life will unfold. And I will always continue to exist as a soul or whatever energy level. So I didn't have a worry in the world. And that lasted almost for a week. And it was just amazing. Oh, my problems are gone. It was it was yeah, the most incredible experience that I ever could have imagined. And to get back to the practice of wanting an answer. And throwing it out there into the universe. That Spiritual Awakening was an answer to my burning question. At the time, I had become very spiritual. And I was already was energized. I felt better about myself. But what happened was, I felt like a spiritual island in my family. I couldn't connect to my family because they were not all that spiritual. And I knew I couldn't just preach to them. Well, it's this is how it is. And because it was my truth, but it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate truth. But who knows, you know, nobody can prove anything. I can't prove God exists. And I can't prove God doesn't exist. You know, it's one of those things that you believe what you believe. And you know, what do you know? But I felt very kind of isolated. And one day I realized, I don't have to put up with that. There's got to be an answer. And so I threw it out in the US into the universe. And I I do this thing where I follow signs, you can read about it in the book. And one day I had this deeper awareness and I'm like, Okay, that's a sign I got to follow this lead. And it was leading me to a book and once I read this paragraph, it took me through this whole process, this mental process of kind of analyzing some things from my past. And also it got me into this awakening. And basically the answer to my question, how do I connect at a deeper levels, more spiritual, conscious level of my family? And it was unconditional love. It was complete acceptance of my family members. They're all flawed. We're all flawed. That that's the Oh only way we can learn and evolve. It's through our shortcomings to our flaws and the Nadeen flaws. They're just imperfections, because that comes with being a human being. And I loved my family unconditionally, I was showered with an unconditional love. And I can see, I was made whole. That was the whole thing was made whole, I felt complete. And I could see that everybody was holed. Also, I could see it in my family members, anybody who I would run into in the supermarket, like it's, it's a weird, I can't even describe it. But I knew and I could see David Hall, complete already at that soul level. But the problem is, we live in our mental world, where there's all this inner conflict and these judgments and these limiting beliefs of how we think we should live life the best way and all that. But it's so flawed in prisons as really, but it's part of the whole human journey. But that Awakening was an answer to this burning question. So you do get answers, you just need to be really eager to get the answer. So then, how did your relationships with your family change? They would have been able to notice the way that you know, Mum was now things are a bit different did that? How did that sort of go? i To be honest, I hardly even really talked about it. During those days, I talked a little bit to my husband about it bit by bit because I it was such a kind of shocking experience that like, well, not even shocking, it was actually something that I recognized like, I remembered the state of being I had just forgotten about and like, how did I forget that this is another way of being but anyway, I couldn't find the words to describe what had happened to me, it took me a long time to figure out how to talk about it, and how to write about it. But basically, what happened was, I approached my kids differently I saw because I saw motherhood through completely new lens. And the lens was our children are born with their own purpose. They have to find their own purpose, and they have their own inner compass. to guide them, I realized I have my own inner compass, it's our intuition. It's listening to that own your inner voice that will guide you to life because your soul knows what you love what you're fascinated with what and that leads you to your purpose, just follow the path of inspiration, and you will find your purpose in purposeful life. And our kids have the same and has nothing to do with us really. It's not the way I defined motherhood being a good mom was like I said, you have to check the boxes to make sure they get a good education and you just invest in your family, you give, give give. But what I had learned was we all are responsible for our own happiness, we have to find our own purpose too. And raising kids is part of our purpose. That often there's more, there's more, and I knew there was more for me. And it's our own inner compass that will guide us there. And I realized our kids have their own inner compass, even though we still have to guide them in life when they're young. They know what they want in this lifetime. It's it often gets covered up that they know what they're passionate about. If the opening is there, if you if you let them and it might not look like high school, college, whatever. Yeah. Every kid has to follow their own path. And what we have to let go of is feeling like if a kid doesn't follow that path, that we were not good parents. It is the biggest BS in the world. Our kids are meant to follow their own path. And it might look completely different than what you had in mind because what you had in mind is likely has to do with what you want for for them because then you can feel good about yourself that you did a good job. Yeah, all we really have to do is our very best and they will find their path in life. But it's important that we as parents also create our own fulfilling life if we don't feel fulfilled, if you feel completely fulfilled with raising your parents, fantastic. But if you feel something is missing, I highly encourage anyone figure out what it is and add it to your life. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I love that. So they would all be at the age where they would be aware that, you know, mums written a book mums put a book out mums or you know, published author. Yeah, how do they feel about that? They, it's kind of curious. They, they like it, they kind of accept it, or actually, for a while, because it took me six years to write it. Basically, I had, I had the funny thing is I had already started writing my book before I had this awakening, because I had done so much work, where I love myself to simply pursue what excited me. And I started thinking about, Gosh, I want to write a book, I want to integrate all these wonderful ideas about spirituality and psychology that I get from all these different books, and integrate it into my own book, and then write about my own experiences and insights and whatever. So then after you know, my ego, shut it down many times, like you're not going to write a book, forget about it, who do you think you are, you're going to be a failure, you'll never succeed. You know, one morning, I had a deeper awareness, and I knew you are going to write this book, this is what you're supposed to do. So we started slowly figuring out what I wanted to write about. And then a year later, I had the spiritual awakening. And for a while I thought there is no way I'm going to write about this, forget about it, there is no way I'm going to stick to what I wanted to write about in my book, and forget about it. This is impossible. People will think I'm crazy if I write about this stuff. And lo and behold, of course, I started realizing no, you need to find the courage to, to write about it. So the whole process basically was six years, so much of my youngest kids life is like mom is writing a book mom is writing. They were waiting and waiting. And finally the book is published and this and that. And it's kind of interesting, because we have a lot of families in our neighborhood. And then just the other day, my 13 year old, came home and she said yeah, a friend of mine. She said, Yeah, her mom had to read your book. And she really liked it and like, Oh, that's great. You know, like, it's kind of weird. It's like in our community and and yeah, so yeah, they like they just now think it's normal that Mom Mom wrote a book and doing a podcast and now she's got an audio book coming out and she's getting into life coaching which is really my passion. So yeah, it's interesting definitely. Is it important for you personally, for them to see that you're not just a mum, you're not just you don't just exist exist for them. You're capable your own passions and, you know, achievements. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And what I what I realized during that awakening, and that's what I how I approach my kids now, like, you really have to sense what are you interested in? And listen to that. No. Yeah, we have a responsibility for ourselves and our kids one day when you know, they're adults, too. You do need to find actually take care of yourself. So, you know, if something is a hobby, and you know, it's not gonna make money, it might have to stay a hobby for a while you figure out how to, you know, pay the bills. And then over time, maybe you can see how you can make a living, you know. But it's very important to, to listen to that voice. And also, if you haven't figured it out yet, which is very common for 1618 year olds, like I want to do, you just trust you keep moving forward and trust, you will figure it out, you will keep trusting, just keep moving forward and just relax, you'll be fine. You'll figure it out. It's very important. Yeah, that that kids see that mom is not just mom, especially, I think, with having three daughters. If they ever want to have their own children, I think it's important that they will allow themselves also to not just be mom. And to figure out they're more than just mom. They're whatever they want to be however they want to feel that in. And it doesn't mean it takes away from being the best mom, you want to be. I think it adds I think it makes you even well, it makes you happier mom, you might not spend as much time like I spent time away from my kids, but they're older now. So it is easier, they're very independent. But I don't feel bad about it. Because I know it's good for them to spend time on their own figuring things out on their own. And I still spent plenty of time with them. And unhappier mom for it, and more fulfilled, and therefore also renewing more fulfilled as a parent, you actually give your kids a little more space to figure it out also, on their own. And I think it also shows that, you know, we're all responsible for our unhappiness, nobody can make you happy, you can't make your kids happy. You can make a happy for a day doing something fun. But do happiness, it really does come from within itself, fulfillment and purpose and meaning and only we ourselves can configure that out. Yeah, that is so true, isn't it? When you said before about kids not knowing what they want to do. I feel like over here anyway. The kids like my son, my oldest is 14. And they're already, you know, trying to decide the pathways for their, you know, their education for the job they want to do. And it's like, how can you possibly know at that age, what you want to do for the rest of your life, that is just an unreasonable thing to put on anyone. And I say to my son, you know, I've found my dream job when I was 35. You know, there's never, you're never gonna run out of time, you know, you're gonna go through experience in life, and maybe the thing you think you want to do, you start doing it and go, actually, this is not what I thought change to something else. So that, you know, there's there's no pressure to decide right this second. And that's something I'd love to see sort of change in schooling. I really think we need to have a cultural shift, Big time, big time and education, I see some of the shifts happening already. Because there's so many parents who say, we need to bring back the trades. You know, we're like, for so long, we have been preparing all these kids for higher education. But not all kids want to do higher education, they want to work with their hands, they don't, they don't want to dive into all these, these books and read and they're not all kids are meant to do that. And we have to change as a society really, and and put the same value on on a trades education and a four year college degree. Really, that's what's got to shift. And we also tell our kids that just keep moving forward, make the best decision at that moment. And just know that allow yourself to change your mind if there's a gift you can give yourself is to allow yourself to change course. If you get stuck like well, I want to be let's say I want to be a doctor and from a young age on and then you get older and you realize the reality of it is not really what do you want to do but now you've kind of painted yourself in a corner like I have told everybody for years, I want to be a doctor and then it becomes so hard to acknowledge you want to do something else because now you have to do maybe with family that's like but he was wanting to be a doctor. No, you want to be something else. So we tell our kids always be open minded and allow yourself to change course if you really feel this is not the right direction anymore. You know, and I do think it's just need more time. And they need to have more fun too. And more hands on classes. Yeah, they gotta bring the trades back into the classroom. You know, it's sorry that I'm seeing that shift a bit, but it needs to happen more. That's the thing. Like, you're always going to need someone to fix your roof or, you know, carpentry, you're always going to need people to create with the hands, you know, someone's got the toilet or Yeah, so yeah, that is a great saying some one of the ladies I had on my podcast said, we can't all be astronauts, we have to have a balance in life. Yeah, it's bad knowledge, and I've always found it fascinating. You say you're talking about how it's a different time for the kids. But then the parents like it's really hard to parent children at the moment. Because most of us depending on our age, we didn't have social media, when we were growing up. So it's like, how do you navigate that when you've had absolutely no experience of what it's like to be a teenager? And have that whole new world that you're dealing with? So I think that's something that's, it's really challenging for a lot of parents at the moment. And yeah, I'm so glad I didn't grow up with thank God. It's just a whole, just a whole extra thing you'd have to be worried about all the time. Like life was so simple. When I think back to my childhood and my teenage years. Absolutely, yeah, I think it's, it's a very challenging time for parents to be raising kids. Life, just even just just for adults, life has become so full and fast, are nervous, as soon as actually not wired to process so much information from the 24 hour news cycle, to social media, to all the emails. I always think our parents didn't get all those emails from the schools, you know, from teachers, from the principal, from, you know, the PTA and the fundraisers, and everything that comes our way, we have to process and it is so much more intense. And that's just for the parent. And now we have to manage our children and social media, and doing homework on their computers that we can't watch every second that they're on a computer, like how do we guide I will keep them safe. It's stressful. It's a lot. And we're the first generation of parents that has to figure this out. Our kids were guinea pigs. Yeah, really? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's still developing exponentially. All the apps and all the ways that they can figure out how to get online and we won't even know about it. Yeah. And so it's, yeah, some, I don't know, ever thought that social media was a good idea for for middle schoolers. I don't know, but that it's not. Talking about your coaching that you do now, do you want to just share a little bit about that with this, if you know anyone's listening that thinks that this is something that they'd you know, benefit from? Can you share a little bit about what you do? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thanks. There's just so many moms who kind of feel stuck and it often has to do with that guilt again, they they feel guilty for not being happy because their lives are good this and that. They feel guilty if they even think about taking some time to themselves, or or pursuing something. And what I do is making people aware of all their beliefs that are tied to what it means to be a mom and kind of waking up to how they're thinking and sometimes it has to do with the culture they grew up in. Like, I remember one mom who I think Her background was Vietnamese. And she said, In my culture, the family comes first always you always give to the family, the family is the center, you give, give, give. So it, it just was conflicting with her wanting to have time to herself to pursue something. She didn't even know what it was. But she said, like, I gotta make a change, because I just, I'm just so stressed and whatever, I'm just not not happy. And I know there's she had a few ideas of what she wanted to do, but she just struggled with the guilt. And once we started talking about a different perspective, like, well, how are you now when your kids need you? When your husband needs you? Are you just happy to, you know, be there for them? Or are you like, oh, my gosh, what do they need? Now? What is it now? You know, it's like, the last I'm always like, Oh, my gosh, I never have time to myself. So I told her, Well, what if we reframe it, and you set aside some time for yourself, and then be inspired and enjoy, really be in it and enjoy what you do, guess what's gonna happen. Then when you're present with your family, you're much more present. And then you don't feel so drained. Because you know, every week, you've got this time for yourself. And it's coming every week, and you do what you love. And you keep pursuing different things that maybe it'll shift over time. And then you can just be there for your family even more and more present and more positive. And once you started seeing that, she's like, Oh, no, I get it. Okay. Okay, that's compatible, okay. I can still, like, honor my culture, and honor what I need, you know, so it's always about finding the right perspective. That is healing, because we're often just not seeing it. Right. You know, because we have ideas and beliefs and limits, limiting thoughts. It's about uncovering those. And I, yeah, that's definitely passionate mind to help moms find the right perspective, and then help them pursue what they want to pursue. Yeah, that's wonderful. Good for you. That is just Yeah, it's really wonderful that you can pass that gift on for the, you know, that amazing experience that you've had, and then you can, you know, help so many other moms and, and then that helps, you know, it goes down the line. Like you said, before, we're all connected. Yeah, no, it's further, because I had to change my perspective. I felt guilty taking time. So I know what these moms are going through. So I know, and I know how hard it is to change your perspective. And to break these patterns. I know how hard it is. But I also know the rewards are incredible, not just for yourself, but for your whole family, your whole family will benefit once you become happier. everybody around you is going to feel it. And also another thing when mom is happy, kids feel it. And now, they don't have to feel any responsibility to like, make mom happy. Some kids are sensitive that way. Yeah, they feel kind of responsible. And they don't have to worry about mom anymore, too. I've heard about that, too. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's always it's all good. You know, life might shift. Things might change. But it's always the fear of the change that holds us in place, but gradually integrate the changes. It can be so powerful. Absolutely. It's just it's finding that balance, isn't it? Like your your example of your client? You know, she's honoring what's important to her culturally, but then she's also honoring herself, which is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And getting that balance, right. And that'll be different for every single person. Exactly. That's the whole journey. But I do believe there's always a way in which we can gently integrate some changes. You don't have to make massive changes right away. You know, for some people, that's why they do or they quit their job and this and that, but most people can't do that. So I've done the way I've made it changes was gently integrating all the little changes over time and then, you know, you look back and it's it's a big shift, ultimately. Yeah, that's it. All these little, little tiny things add up to this massive, massive effect over time. Yeah. And then that makes it less daunting. Like you talk fear. Fear certainly holds us back, you know that. Oh, no, what if this doesn't happen or if this doesn't work, or you know, the what ifs that like you were talking before about, you know, we jump forward, we think about the future. But, you know, the only time we really have is, is the present. And there's, there's really no point in jumping forward. And we really only have now and, and what I also realized is, even though we want to make changes on the outside, like, we want to do something, do a hobby or start something, whatever it is, the shift always has to happen mentally, we have to shift our thinking. And sometimes it's a tiny little shift with our thinking. And you know, but then it starts to show on the outside and just a tiny little mental shift is huge, energetically you feel it, and then the world around, you starts to respond differently. It's a fascinating process, I've experienced it, all of a sudden, you need different people, you find yourself in different situations that actually support what you want to do. And it just opens everything up with just tiny little changes that you're making, basically, mentally, it's the mental shifts that you create, and then it starts showing up in your outfit and out for you know, in your world. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. Danielle, it's been so lovely to talk to you this. Wonderful, thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'll put the links for people to get in touch with you in the show notes. But do you have a website or somewhere you'd like to direct people to head to if they'd like to know more? Yes, the easiest one is inner compass. living.com. So inner compass living.com. And they can also reach me at inner compass. living@gmail.com . And if people want to know when my audiobook is coming out, it should be late April, early May. They can sign up for my newsletter that's on the website, and then they'll get my newsletters and a blog and whatever, they'll they'll be in the loop on the latest. So inner compass living.com Fantastic. Oh, wonderful. Look, good luck with it all. And I'm Yeah, excited to, to check out the audio book to because I mean, obviously I've read it on the page. But I think when you hear the person that wrote it, reading, it just adds a completely different dimension to it, you know? So yeah, I'll be excited to check that out, too. Yeah,

Sarah Broekensha Australian actor and producer S1 Ep18 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Brokensha is an actor and producer from Eight Mile Creek, South Australia, and a mother of 2 boys. Acting since the age of 23, Sarah has performed numerous times with Patch Theatre Company , including an off-Broadway season in New York City. She performed in Mutzenball which was awarded the 2008 Green Room Theatre Award for Best Cabaret Ensemble, Other shows include Ruby Bruise , Emily Loves to Bounce , Me and My Shadow, Yo Diddle Diddle and The Girl Who Cried Wolf. ​ Her film and television credits include Wanted Season 3 , Wolf Creek 2 and Rabbit (feature film). Sarah created her own production company, Control Party Theatre , and received rave reviews for her one woman show "The World is Looking for You" in August 2021. ​ In addition to all this she runs a farm with her husband Liam, which incorporates a free range egg farm The Splendid Egg ​ We discuss how covid has levelled the playing field in the theatre industry, how important support for expectant and new mums is in the industry in keeping your sense of identity, and building resilience in her children, and herself. ​ Connect with Sarah here More info about The World is Looking For You ​ Connect with the podcast here ​ Audio of the promo video for The World is Looking for You that appears in the intro, is used with permission Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... oday on the podcast, I would like to welcome Sarah Brokenshire. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's great. So you are an actor, which is exciting. I haven't had an actor on my show yet. So, welcome. Thank you. I feel honored to be the first. Yeah. So tell us about yourself how you got into being an actor and share anything else that you'd like to around that? Yeah, okay. Well, I think I was I loved acting or the drama at school, high school, I guess. And then I didn't quite have the confidence, I don't think to audition for drama schools at that stage when I was 17. So I kind of put that aside and I went traveling, went skiing, I was kind of snow ski instructor actually, and then did like a business degree and did all sorts of other things. But really, ultimately, it got to a point where all I was thinking about was having a go having a crack at acting and, and so finally, when I was, it was it was when I was about 2024 2423 24, I finally plucked up the courage and started auditioning for drama school. So then I went to drama school. In had the best three years, I've had the best time and then as a mature age students, so everyone else was kind of 1718 and I was very old, 24 year old. I felt very old looking back now. That um, and then yeah, and then I left drama school. I finished there in 2004 and just been kind of slowly chipping away doing just getting gigs where I can and not experiencer independent theater and working with a lot of the professional theatre companies in Adelaide mainly spent a couple of years in Melbourne and then made the odd decision to move regionally. Which was really weird way has been the best thing. All my career. It's a very interesting journey for me, but to be leaving early. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. And you've brought it up. So I'll ask you now have you said it's really good for your career of being in my Gambia which is 500 kilometers away from Adelaide 500. Club. Know, but how, how is that so good? I think initially, it was actually was quite hard. But it made me become a bit more resourceful made me think about what I kind of work I wanted to make I wanted to be a part of. And when things were quite quiet, I kind of went alright, well, maybe. How can I make the work come to me? How can I get I'd made some really good I spent a good 10 years in Adelaide making a really great network of creatives and friends that were doing amazing things. And then I looked for avenues where I couldn't bring them to me or yeah, how can I open up an opportunity that maybe I'm not, you know, outside of the box, and that's kind of where that started. And and I mean, it's not it doesn't all happen really quickly. That's happened but I've been here for 11 years. And now I'm starting to get quite busy but it's taken, you know, taken it's a slow burn definitely. That's interesting, too. I guess that would also be It's really beneficial for us as audiences in regional areas to be able to maybe get shows that we wouldn't get here because the main actor is from here. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one or the other. And also, when I got invited kind of created down to me, I've also tried to have opportunities where I get them out into the community. So we, and it's also been a really good way for me to an inroad into my community in a way as well, it's been a really good way for me to kind of understand where I live and get to know the people that surround me. But, yeah, definitely, like, I think the more Yeah, I think more professional artists seem to be kind of leaving the cities. And I think that definitely draws those kind of different shows and works and performances, whatever, out of the city. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was gonna ask you to share with us some of the shows that you've been in, I know that I had a ticket to come and see you in the world is looking for you. And then my son broke his arm that night, so I couldn't. Stressful, I've actually very disappointed because I've had wonderful, wonderful feedback about that show. So I don't know how we're ever gonna get to see Do they ever? Do they record them? Like, yeah, it often doesn't translate quite as well. But we did get a really beautiful, archival recording in Adelaide, actually, an amazing filmmaker kind of came in and took a few different, got a few different cameras in there. But I think hopefully, we'll get to do it again, down here, I only got to do it three times and to very small audiences, which was intentional, to keep it very intimate. But I think I would like it just was over so quickly, in such a, I guess this work was very personal, and had a lot of my personal story in it. And then to be able to do it to my local community was was so humbling and profound for me, that I just selfishly want to have that experience again. It was just, it was really very grateful to have had that moment in time. Yeah. No, I want you to do it again. So I can say it. Yeah. So front row ticket. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you'd had some of your own personal story. So how did that come about? Were you involved in actually like brushing it? Or how how did that come about? Um, I went long story is that when I first moved back here, I was definitely a bit of a loss of what to do and thought I had isolated myself from my creative community I kind of initially I thought I possibly made a mistake in terms of career not not in terms of family because I'd moved back to be closer to family to for limb, my husband and I would start a family together. But I did feel quite isolated from Adelaide and in Melbourne and thought maybe I'd made a mistake, but in that regard, but then I just kept getting these little invitations from the regional funding body country out to say and they kind of one of them kind of heard that I had moved from Adelaide to or from and to Matt Gandy. And so he just kept sending me these little invitations to meet up with someone just to talk about this or come to Adelaide for the fringe and meet some other regional artists and so slowly, I kind of, and then I kind of got the courage, I guess, which is sounds a bit strange, but the courage to have an idea that in my mind that I kind of put out there usually I just perform other people's ideas or, and so I applied for a grant to develop a show with a director, friend of mine, Daisy Brown, she's this incredible director that we've worked together on a few shows in Adelaide. And so we applied for funding to commission, an amazing writer Finnegan Cucamonga to come and work with us. So I didn't write the show. Thank goodness. I am. So this is part of that, that process of who are the people that I'd like to sit in a room with and work with. And it was Daisy and Finn, and, and Mario, who Daisy, Mario, and I have a company to get a fairly company together. And we all want to work with those people. And I had just had an idea, which was a, an article that I'd found in a, based on an article I'd found on Facebook essentially used before. And so I got the got the funding. And I think you've got to come down here to Adelaide, Gambia, and we sat in a room for a week, and talking and talking talk. And then we did that, again, we probably had a four week rehearsal process over a year. And then we just started from there. And we it was a four year process. play that. Yeah. It was a big one. And it was meant to happen in last year, but it got postponed because COVID But there was almost a blessing. I think that yeah, and so and, and why I wasn't really sure what it was going to be none of us were when we started talking. And then it's just kind of evolved over evolved over four years and became this one woman show which wasn't my intention, either, because that's terrifying. It ended up being Yeah, this this. Yeah, this is theta work that we're very proud of. Oh, yeah. That's, that's no, I really have to say it was on stage with the composer he, he played live. And then we had this amazing vocalist as well. So she was part of the EU, I think to what maybe I can like start a petition to get it back. So other things that you've done? I know, with my connection with childcare, you've done some work with the patch theatre group, they do shows for children. Yeah, tell us the other things that you've done over? Yeah. Yeah, I've done a lot of work with patch theatre, and I actually do a lot of work with them over my presidency. Yeah, so that kind of saved me a little bit, in many ways. Like, it kept me kind of, in the, in the, with my finger, it felt like my finger was still on a pulse of some description. Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm sure you understand as well, when you when you have start having kids. It's just, it's hard to kind of, you know, still figure out who you are amongst the midst of motherhood and beautiful mess in some in some respects, I guess. But you do. It's hard to kind of, you know, there's a life that was and then you as another kind of just trying to figure it out. And somehow I got to kind of keep a little bit of my artistic identity alive at at that stage, which I think was very crucial to my feeling. Like, I could still do it. I was still an artist still. Yeah. And so I kept my head above water a little bit. So patch I did, I got a pet like 10, or maybe even more than 10 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to start working on two different pet shows. They'll call them. Emily loves to bounce, and me and my shadow, which is two beautiful, beautiful shows that just happened to have these amazing tours and I got to tour with them every you know, once or twice a year. You know, back when we could go overseas and got to go to you know, travel to New York and perform in New York with a little two year old in tow and Oh, yeah. And also while I was pregnant, they kind of would shift rehearsals so that, you know, I could still do rehearsals before my due date and because you're gonna have some times when, when you're acting you feel when you get job. You feel like what I did, I felt like when I found out I was pregnant. I felt like if I told them, you know, that might be the end of that gig, no other jobs in sight. And yeah, so there's all this. Yeah, but something you know, both times when I was pregnant I had patched up and they kind of would go out. No worries, let's just move this here and there. So you can still be, we still want you to be part of the soul and how they will kind of crash into my ceiling. valued, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a bit more than just jobs. I guess. Now that looking back on that. acting jobs hilarious. And then, yeah, so. And then I've just done a few little tiny TV roles and things like that, where, where I've been able to, and they've been amazing, and, and just basically, I'll take any job I can get. Like, I'll do whatever, I'll do anything. Identity? Yeah, so you mentioned there, how crucial and really valuable that wasn't being able to keep doing what you love doing, rather than having to stop while you're pregnant? What about when, when you first had your first child? Did you have a break at all, then? Or were you able to just sort of keep, keep going? I guess, I kept going by the day, the shows are fairly, you know, sporadic. So there was long periods of time where there wasn't much happening, or there were periods of time where I wasn't sure if there was anything in the pipeline, you know, and then something would come up, and it'd be okay. And we'd kind of boy, me, I guess for a bit and then. So it's that old kind of, you know, it's never, you never know, really what's happening and what's coming up next. And, you know, so that job insecurity that comes with being an actor or creative, probably. But, um, so it was definitely a struggle. And then I guess, you know, for me, I have to, usually for the most part, but go to Adelaide, usually to work. So there's that added kind of stress of added stress of having to figure out what to do. Whether to, yeah, how to make that work. Because I will often desperately feel like I wanted to do that job. You know, because you hardly know when you're going to get the next opportunity or, or, yeah, but also trying to look after little tiny babies or, like, some of the patch touring I did, I did these big tourism. So Liam would come with me for a few weeks, and then taking with his mum. And so my mother in law would come and tour with me for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and so it always involved having a very good support network around me. And that was kind of the part of the reason for coming home as well was because I knew that there would be that support network is when my mum lives here. My sister and her. Her husband, they moved back here about six months before I did and we're very close. So yeah, having having that support has been crucial. Absolutely. I wouldn't have been Yeah. Tell me about your children is nearly 10 Finnegan and Fergus, he is seven, seven coming up seven and a half, two and a half years apart. Of course I am very fond of them. And I think they're very amazing. And I printed in funny and, and yeah, I've luckily just been able to either bring them along on tour or have them in rehearsal rooms when required or, you know, and they, they've loved kind of growing up in that, that little world. And I'm working on a children's show just finished a little bit of a rehearsal now and we're doing a bit more rehearsal in December and we need a test audience. That six kids so they're going to come in and be our test audience. I feel very smug about that. Cool huh. So they work just as well. Do they like to have a bit of a go? Yeah, I don't know. I think it seems like to me oldest might have a guy but yeah, I don't know. This guy doesn't know, folks too keen to get up in front of people. But I think maybe maybe seen he's got a bit more of that. Or not that a lot of actors are kind of overt an extrovert. Actually, most of us aren't think but yes. Jimmy's got a bit of a flair, I think. Have you come across any other mums doing sort of similar thing to you that are able to keep working with the little ones or while they're pregnant? Um, yeah, I think it's becoming more and more. I don't know, like, commonplace. I think that your work around pregnancies and small children and it's kind of crucial now I think for theatre companies to be inclusive of mothers of tiny babies. So make those rehearsal rooms comfortable and safe for new mothers and things that I think it's becoming just normal now. Which is great. I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of friends in Adelaide that have babies that working in Adelaide. I don't know, so many regional artists, personally that don't have to leave home for you know, long stretches, which I've done a little bit of that which has been very challenging. Like I really appreciated the work and the experiences, but yeah, very, very challenging. For me and for Lee and my husband, as well. And. You also run a chicken not a chicken farm. It's an egg egg farm. Yeah. Well, I guess it's a we're trying to make it a regenerative farm basically, and so that the chickens are part of that ethos or that philosophy. So they we've only got a couple of caravans, I guess, they called but then sheds, mobile sheds, and we pull it around the paddocks. And chickens just cruise around wherever they want. And kind of basically fertilizing and sanitizing the soil in hopes that we don't have to spray and do all those kinds of things. And we have those beautiful Miranda dog Guardian dogs that look after them out in the paddock. So, you know, there's no fences or anything that I wander around and do it like that. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting been an amazing kind of little add on to the farm. So my, my family, I grew up on this farm that I'm living on now. And my husband is now running it, which is not something that we both really thought we'd be doing, like 15 years ago. We love it. And yeah, so the chickens, we've got this brand called the splendid age, and we sell these beautiful, I think it'd be passion free range eggs. And yeah, just as part of a byproduct of trying to create more diversity on the farm. So traditional farmers will like run other we run we run low prime land, we sell walls well across from that and then we have just some cattle from other neighboring kind of properties. So we look after cattle for other farms and you know trying to got a bit of a rotation of a few different animals through their property. Yeah. And I have read online that they the the chickens have so much space it's even beyond like the traditional what they classes it's like even more yeah just get back in. There's no other offenses to keep they're like Kelvin shooting but they can just walk through the under those or they can go wherever they like essentially, right at the beginning we have these kind of movable fences so we can teach them where to lay and where to sleep and things like that. But you in Yeah, and I can just walk anywhere they're like, I mean, obviously, they walk too far and then come back then it's it's on them if they caught my socks. Yeah, man, some of them just won't walk for case but um, yeah, no, no, no, we'll just kind of wander back to the caravans to roost at night. Yeah, I can go wherever you're like, really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's lovely. So you came to be easy, really? Like with a bit of a weird mix? Ah, okay. People like oh, look, that's the egg lady. I won't say. I won't say you're the egg lady. Egg lady. But it is a weird combination of kind of acting. And I quite like wearing a few different hats as long as I can have something creative in the pipeline, or yeah, just be able to kind of continue auditioning and things like that. Then I I really enjoy having such different hats. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have gone in COVID. Obviously, you've been able to put on you your big show. But like, you talked about auditioning in that? Or have you had to do lots of stuff online? Or has it sort of worked? Yeah, in a way, it's kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for people that don't live in the city. Because I mean, it was kind of hanging that way in the industry was starting to do a lot more self taping, for auditions and things like that. So it was kind of heading in that direction anyway, when rather than walking into a impersonal audition, you'd send in a tape and then go through all the tapes, and then pick the field that they want, and then get those people to come in. And now that's kind of the norm. And obviously, preferred method of auditioning is actually just sending you the tape. And because it's harder to get, you can't fly from Melbourne to Sydney, just, you know, for the day to do an audition. So it's, yeah, it kind of leveled the playing field a bit. And I kind of that isolation weirdly, for me, was minimized, I guess, or Yeah, so I felt more connected. People. I mean, and you know, it would go crazy. Like, people were zooming like crazy in the beginning, but I started connecting with all sorts of people. And creatives that were doing interesting things through zoom, and because everyone was like, well, right, well, how can we still connect with that? Yeah, that Zoom each other or? Yeah, can you send in a tape for this? And it's for me, it kind of was good in many ways. Cuz you probably you probably wonder I've got the chance to meet these people have opportunities if if it wasn't there, that like you said, it's got to tell its upside. Yeah, it definitely has its upside because I have been doing tapes for a little while. Now. I also feel quite comfortable doing that, but almost prefer going into a live or digital real audition because I get all not great. auditioning. I get nervous and you know, when you start talking in your head, like just stop talking. And you just keep going or go back. So I've had to like I have so much more control over a self tape audition, so I don't know concept of mum guilt. What how do you feel about that? Yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit. Navigating motherhood is, is tricky, that I definitely felt a lot of guilt I guess, but about starting going back to work about leaving the kids about leaving my family to go and do a theater job or, and whether it was worth it. And I think, mum got it, I feel like it implies that you've done something wrong, do like numb guilt. And I don't think that's correct. So I wonder if are thinking about it today, because I often feel guilt about not doing this because I'm doing this so you know, I'm doing an acting job. So I can't put as much energy into the farm and so it puts more pressure on them or so I'm feeling guilty all over the place. And, and that's the kind of I feel like I'm being that conditioning thing. So it's not just mom guilt, I don't think I just always felt a bit kind of like I should be in all places all the time. But I think I think I when you when I was going away a lot, I struggled with feeling guilty, feeling, I guess, stressed and stretched and, and then and just not being around. And Liam is just amazing. And being so supportive, he would say well, you know, is that I think he kind of stress to me that it's important that the boys see that you're doing what you love, I guess. And that maybe it's just about finding the right compromises. So your husband, Liam, he must be very supportive, to be encouraging you to keep keep doing what you love doing. And all my whole family right from the beginning. And I think that lame would always say look, because leading up to going away for a show, or just a couple of weeks before I just feel wretched and I feel sad, and I'd feel super guilty about leaving and that he would just remind me that it's a beautiful time for him and the boys to to have a different kind of relationship. Often leaves mum would come over with her partner while I was away to help. And then so then she'd have this different relationship with Liam and the boys than she would if I was here, which I thought was really a lovely thing to say and a lovely thing for me to be reminded of that. She Yeah, she gets to have this different relationship with with the boys while while I'm away. And that she loves that time. She because she doesn't get to see them often. She was encountering, like regional Victoria eight hours away. So and then they get to see me during my love, I guess, or they get to see me going to do that. I mean, they don't necessarily see the shows each time but they get to understand that I'm making a sacrifice to do the things that I love or making. And, and that yeah, it's just about trying to find the right kind of compromise because I think you need your own thing as a as a human and as a as a mum as a parent, but definitely as a mom you need your own whatever that is like even if it doesn't have to be work but and so to have your own thing you do need to compromise and sacrifice a little bit. That kind of relationship with your children or your husband and it's about finding the right compromise or the right balance I guess of sure feeling a bit guilty but also feeling that you Are you doing the right thing for you? I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's an that's it's always a struggle, it's never the same, it's time, it's always a different lead up to me leaving, it only happens a couple of times a year. If I have a good deal, it's, it's a couple of times a year. And the lead up is different every year as the kids get older to. Like, Finn, especially he really misses. Or he gets away, he kind of worked himself off as a lead up to me going away, but then he's finally gone. But so that anxiety, those anxieties are a bit different now for the boys leading up to because they can communicate how they're feeling. And they don't want me to go and this and that, and the other. But I guess that opens up opportunities to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that it is, although it is hard, it means I get to kind of do the thing that I love, but they also get to hang out with Liam in a different way. That's a really great way of looking at it too. It's stringer strengthening other relationships in your family unit, as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and lame. Duck put obviously, a lot of pressure on him, but and he really appreciates that kind of bond he gets with the kids that different when I'm around. This is the kind of mommy's boys a bit at the moment. And so on kind of the, you know, but when I'm out of the picture for a bit, he becomes the kind of parent I guess. Yeah, so how do you step into those different roles? And I hope it's building resilience as well, a little bit maybe what's building resilience for me? I miss them so much. And, and it's, it's tapping away, because I'm also constantly going, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing? It's only a theater show? Should I be home? Like all of that still going on? Even if I am having an amazing kind of time, you know, being in the rehearsal room, or something like that? And then do you tell yourself that it is worth it? Like, do you do it yourself? Then? Say yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that I am reminded, and my mom actually said, the last time because Oh, my God, I'm feeling really anxious about not being around. And it's just like, well, you know, if you just have to, you know, kind of weigh up. And if it's too much, like, if it's, if that's outweighing if you're, if you're miserable, and doing in a way during the show, then there's no point to doing that. So, but if you're, if you're, if you're happy, then and, yeah, then it's kind of it's worth it. I'm not like damaging my children. I just think it's wonderful though, for for boys, in particular, to say that a mother's a mother can be any, anything that they want to be to, like, the mother is the traditional role that they might sit might have seen, maybe the grandparents in a different way. But then mothers of today can can do whatever they want. And I think that's awesome for boys to say that that, you know, as they grow up their expectation of what, you know, their relationships might look like is, you know, endless. I suppose its boundless. It hasn't got these constraints that the previous generations would have had, I guess. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess when when I'm at home, I do we do tend to kind of fall into Liam's kind of out doing the labor on the farm, although I do come out and help and, and I tend to be them on that kind of nurturing and doing like book work and, and taking the score and doing those kind of almost, you know, those stereotypes, the stereotypical kind of role that we've kind of fall into which I don't sometimes I feel funny about that. I yeah, I agree with you that I think it's great for them to kind of see me Yeah. forging a bit of a path that's a bit tricky, as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just it's tricky and hard and as a performer, I think and an actor it's definitely a build resilience. Yeah. I get out pretty quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you would have to have pretty thick skin I suppose to, you've always putting yourself up for stuff. And you're at the whim of someone else to tell you whether you're good enough because or not, whether you're right for the role or not, but I don't think there'll be many people. Exactly, yeah, it's definitely pretty tricky. And I think that's part of the reason for starting to be a bit more rigorous in creating my own work is so that you can have some kind of control over what you're doing. And, and so you can still get your voice out there and your stories out there. And, and, and, you know, it's hard, like, I'm sure you probably feel the same when you like, write a song or or write an album, and then you've kind of put put your heart and soul into it. And then you just have to go, Matt, ego, what do you think? Why do you not I mean, like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's very, you're so very, very vulnerable situation to put yourself in and, and, yeah, sometimes when standing out, outside, just recently are standing out the front of the foyer after doing the show. And I'm just like, God, this is, I feel like I basically just kind of, you know, cut over my chest poured out my heart. And I just smoked it down in front of everyone for you to skate. You know, I was a bit late for a bit but like, God, it is. Yeah, it's thank God, people do it now. Like when you hear a piece of music that just like rips your heart out, or you see like, for me watching a theater show that can either punches you in the gut for the best. I love it so much. And so, you know, thank God, artists and people are creative, because for me, that's like, that's the stuff of life. But I'm not for everybody, I guess. But yeah, it does take a bit of Yeah, resilience and determination. And it's not really a choice is that you're just Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, it's just you just make you just have to. Yes, you are compelled to do it. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it's great. I have so much admiration for all of us and relishing myself. And yeah, I think it's just, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's why it's so hard for moms, you create, because of this, the sheer determination that you're going to do what you want to do, you're going to put out what you want to share, you're going to create what you want to create. But then you go, Oh, hang on a minute. There's these other people here now that I have to consider. And it's like trying to reconcile the two. Yeah, it's just, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel when you're kind of writing songs or, but I know that when I'm rehearsing or performing a show, especially leading up to opening night, or things like that, I find it very hard to be present. Because I'm always thinking about just feeling nervous, really, or you kind of consumed about the characters I'm exploring. And so it's a tricky balance to be kind of be present. With the kids walking something at the same time, but also, yeah. Enjoy the privilege. Yeah, it's, it's, that's a, it's a really hard one. There's the episode that came out today with Rachel, she said that she always tried to keep the two things really separate the, the parenting, and her art practice. And I think it's different. Because when you're actually, you know, you physically holding a paintbrush or physically holding a pen, you can go to this space and do it. But you're in this, here. And so then she she found that if she could get some time doing her art, then she could go right, that's done. Now I can go see my children, which works great, you know, for that sort of medium. But I find like, your mind can be really challenging because you've always got stuff going around in your head. Like, yeah, always there. And how do you switch that off? Well, your children have come over and said, Hey, what should we do this and you're going when I'm watching but my brains back here thinking about what I was really challenging just to but when I come in here to actually record something, that's the easy bit because I can go right I'm shutting the door. Give me 10 minutes to record. Yeah, it's all the other step the other times the hard, you know, yeah. And yeah, it's rattling around in here. And you just, you just want to grab, like, things will come to you in a second and you're like, Oh, hang on, hang on. I have to write this down. Yeah. Because the truth is Do you know? Oh, I don't know. It's just like, ah, yeah, heads looks like splitting. Yeah, I'd be I find it tricky as well. And because I, I spent a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from the family. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing. Whereas I find now that I'm doing a bit more work here and in my Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and and come try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had an realize it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble, and, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and, you know, I have huge admiration for, you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time, because that's tricky. Yeah. Just these endless challenges that we're faced with. Yeah, something comes up. Show that you've got coming up that you're working on the children show, how when's that sort of looking like it will have its opening and that sort of stuff? Yeah, so that's a company called the paper boats and theatre theater, Michael de Brown, who used to work at patch theater, so that when I was doing my shadow, and he was the artistic director there, so we've had a long kind of working relationship. He is developing a show with another creative down here called Kevin Clark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So dancer musician, I feel like it's the triple threat. And he, so I'm working on a little show called Seven little wonders that will be performed, I think, as part of the Fringe Festival Matt gave me that. March. Yeah. So we're kind of slowly kind of developing. It involves like six little six kids on stage the whole time. So I've never it'll be an interesting and interesting experience, I think and so that's why we're starting we're gonna get a few test audiences in early but hopefully the the beautiful kind of, you know, little show for for kind of four to eight year olds. Oh, wonderful. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds Yeah, gag, gag just he plays all these different instruments. And I just kind of stand there and say words every now and again. But the fairy wouldn't have the show without your words. Thank you if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman H dwellest Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Judy Richards Australian mixed media artist S2 Ep66 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) My guest today is Judy Richards, an artist, mother of 3 and grandmother of 8 from Mount Gambier Australia, and the first grandmother I've hosted on the podcast. Judy has been creative her whole life, she always loved to colour in and draw and learned to crochet as a 10 year old. Her mother would always buy always buy a few balls of wool for her when she did her groceries, and Judy would make blankets for everyone, brothers and for her dad's truck. As a 13 year old Judy learned to sew on her mum's old treadle sewing machine, her first major sewing project was a high school skirt, because mum couldn't afford to buy one. She used to make most of her clothes in her late teens and when she had children she would sew most of their clothes. In the late 80s and throughout the 90s Judy taught herself to paint, no social media back those days or YouTube to learn on, so Judy dove into the books. In 1995 Judy opened her own art studio called Omega Rose Crafts and Gifts, she painted, made dolls, quilts, you name it, Judy did it... she'd be up to all hours of the morning. The studio closed after 2.5 years when her husband's business circumstances changed, so Judy started selling at the local markets, and did so every Saturday for 7 years. By 2003 she was feeling so burnt out, Around 2010 Judy got back into drawing and penwork and occasionally painting, selling a bit but doing it more to keep busy and she loves giving them away. She's still very creating today, her favourites being crocheting and painting. As 40 year old Judy did some more study and became a nail technician, still utilising her creativity but on nails. After working from home for 20 years, and feeling the effects of covid on her business, Judy is now looking for her next challenge. Judy lives by the motto, If you don't know how to do something, learn it and try it, and you can't say you can't do something, until you have tried it! This episode contains discussions around suicide, depression, alcoholism, anxiety and domestic violence Judy has experienced many heartbreaks in her family, losing 2 brothers, one to suicide and the other alcoholism. Judy feared depression for a long time and used her creativity to keep her busy and would lean into it if she wasn't feeling mentally strong. Today you'll hear chatter and background noise from Judy's 3 year old grandson Leo. Follow Judy on instagram Connect with the podcast - instagram / website Christian Author Francine Rivers Judy's work in progress painting If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Judy Richards. Judy is an artist, a mother of three and a grandmother of eight from Mount Gambia in Australia. The first grandmother that I've had on the podcast, Judy has been creative her whole life. She always loved to coloring and draw, learn to crochet as a 10 year old and her mother would always buy a few balls of wool for her when she did her groceries. Judy loved making blankets for everyone in the family. As a 13 year old Judy learn to sew on her mom's old treadle sewing machine. Her first major project was a high school skirt. Because mum couldn't afford to buy one. She used to make most of her clothes in her late teens. And when she had her own children, she would say most of their clothes to in the late 80s. And throughout the 90s. Judy taught herself to paint no social media back in those days or YouTube to learn on. So Judy dove into the books. In 1995. She opened her own art studio called omega rose crafts and gifts where she taught art and painted made dolls. Quilts. You name it, Judy did it. She'd be up until all hours of the morning. The studio closed after two and a half years when her husband's business circumstances changed. So Judy started selling at the local markets and did so every Saturday. By 2003. She was feeling so burnt out. Around 2010. Judy got back into drawing and pen work and occasionally painting selling a bit but doing it more to keep busy and she loves giving them away. She's still very creative today, her favorites being crocheting and painting. As a 40 year old, Judy did some more study and became a nail technician. Still utilizing her creativity but on clients nails. After working from home for 20 years, and feeling the effects of COVID on her business. Judy is now looking for her next challenge. This episode contains discussions around suicide, depression, alcoholism, and anxiety and domestic violence. Judy has experienced many heartbreaks in her family, losing two brothers one to suicide and the other to alcoholism. Judy feared depression for a long time and uses her creativity to keep her busy. And she leans into it if she isn't feeling mentally strong. Julie lives by the motto if you don't know how to do it, learn it. Try it. You can't say you can't do something until you've tried it. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a great list of international resources can be accessed by the website, www dot Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you hear on today's podcast is from my trio, LM Joe which is myself, my sister Emma and her husband John. And we play new age and ambient music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. And throughout the podcast today. You'll hear from a little visitor Judy's three year old grandson Leo. Thank you so much for coming on duty. Yeah, it's such a pleasure to meet you again. But to be in your home today, this is the first time I've actually taking my gear out and not being in my studio. So this is very exciting. It's exciting for me to lie to you and that's funny because that's what is going on. Yeah. I've watched a couple of your things. Yes, that's what it is. And that's the truth isn't it? Like nothing ever goes perfectly how you expect it and dance and that's why I think you know, we live in a world and everybody expects everything to be perfect. Your Home has to be perfect. Life has to be perfect. You have to have the perfect job, you have to have everything perfect. That's not life. Life doesn't work like that. I didn't grow up in the most perfect environment growing up as a child. But I had a mother who loved us so much. And even though my dad left, and my mom was me and my four brothers, and it wasn't easy, because she was a very sick lady. But she taught me who I want it to be. Yeah, I wanted to be like her, or wanting to be that woman that would. I'm a very forgiving person. I don't hold grudges, because I just I think life's worth it. And she taught me about being creative. Like, you know, she, well, that's crushering at 19 years old. Yeah. It's my brother's a blanket, manner blanket. And she would do the groceries and she'd bring home a couple balls a wall, that the next one like, you know, and then by the time I was 13, I was dressmaking. So I've been creative, my whole life. Just doesn't stop. I can't sit down. That's terrible. That's part of life, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not. It's not a bad sort of habit to have really, you know, to keep yourself busy and active minds. And I believe, you know, people go, Oh, I can't do that. You haven't tried. That's the biggest thing. My whole life. I like a challenge. In my artwork, I like a challenge. I'll try something totally new. And I thought, What am I doing that, you know, I never let it get to me and, and then, you know, I've got children, so and now they're out, and now I've got grandchildren and but it's just, it's just life, you just got to make the most of it. And I guess then you would have, it would have been important for you to instill that those sort of ideals into your own children growing up. And I'm really proud of who my daughters have become, you know, life's not always easy, you know, and I and I see that in our lives. And I've watched a couple of dollars struggle here in life at times, and I just encourage them to keep going. And, and my youngest daughter, Megan, I always say to her, he remind me of my mom, you're stronger than you think. And you'll nothing will get you there now, but you'll get through it like you know, and I think that's what you've got to look at in life that you can allow things to pull you down. And that's where depression can come in. Or you can allow life just to fight for what you believe in. And I've always believed in my marriage, I've always fought through it and we've had some really tough times but and instill that into my kids it's not perfect think this is the thing these days with all the social media that's on the same now like everyone shows that you know the the perfect photos and the perfect snapshots in life and it's not reality. It's just that tiny moment. That's right, you know, but then if you're feeling a bit insecure or you know you're you're a bit down on yourself or your circumstances that can make a massively negative difference to absolutely and I think the worst part about social media is how you look. It's like if you don't look a certain way, you're not good enough for society. That's not how it is. Now I get a lot of ladies that always look nice. It's not that hard. Like I have a skirt and a jumper on today like we all dressed up. It's just who I am. I like clothing and I like to look nice, but it's not hard to actually nearly 90% of my class come out of Kmart yeah It is not hard. I used to dress Mike all the time when I had my children. We lived on one wage, so there wasn't money to spend on clothing. And so my son che was sitting on my kitchen table all the time. My husband got so sick of it that he built me around the best. We could have the kitchen table for you, especially when I was being creative. And I was doing the markets and didn't have the social media that we have today. So I when I started painting, and then I had friends asked me to teach so they're not started teaching. And then in 97, I owned art studio, and it was called omega rose crafts and gifts. And so two and a half years, I hit that studio. And you know, I dropped the kids off to school, and I'll go to the studio and spend the day there. And either I would get to pick them up, or Pete's dad would pick them up, drop them off at the studio and they would go into their classroom and do their schoolwork or that go to their grandparents, either one and but it was a really good experience. For me it was about learning how to run my own business. The goods and the bads. Yeah, because there's always that. And then my husband's business partner decided he wanted out. So we had to buy our main breadwinner. And so my studio had to close. And then I was like, What am I gonna do with all this stuff was crazy. I had so much. So I went out to Fletcher job markets for five years. And so every Saturday, I'll say every Saturday for five years. And so I kept making stuff, making stuff making stuff. And then it came to the point where I got burnt out. And I think that's why now when I come to create the creative side of things. Sometimes I'll start something and I'll go out and start selling there. But the last couple of years, I've just liked the handout, I'm not doing that anymore. Because you've burned yourself out. And if you're not careful, that desire that you enjoyed, becomes a headache. And I loved crochet, or crochet blankets, and I sell some. But if I don't, I don't care. Yeah. There's no pressure. I just finished one I thought I had a solid it's not so I'm not fast. It's in my color. So I can always keep it in the box. I love giving away stuff as presents. When the grandchildren started coming along, I started crocheting and making fresh toys. Love it. Love it might I might have made hates. And I did a couple of markets. And one market I did a couple of years ago. And people are just like, Oh no, that's to do I'm not paying that is hours and days. And I'm just like, and me. I do stuff to make money. I do stuff because I enjoy it. But if I can sell something, it's fine. But I never put a high price on something. So I just figured that's the price I've put on it. Either pay for it or go with that. Yeah, yeah, I think that that's something I'm noticing a lot on social media at the moment is that people who make pain making things are actually you know, standing up for themselves and saying this isn't mass produced in some far off country by people who don't get paid very much. You know, this is like you said, it takes so long it's you know, you've got all these years of skills behind you that you'd build up. You shouldn't feel like you have to justify what you what you're asking for. It's like Dammit, this is what it costs you know, like you said you're not putting like a tremendous mark on top of it. It's like nine manufacturing materials and just a little bit extra. Yep. Yeah, I'm happy with that. I you know, kids are all grown up and gone. Now. I've got eight grandchildren and eight grandchildren, but only have three here. And I just say I've got little Leo today and he's just he's just my baby. You just loves me. It's just my grandma but you know and the rest of the in Queensland so that's really hard because I don't get to see them that often. But we keep in contact with one another But you know, and having that enjoyment with your family is so important, because before you know I've gone yeah. And I don't have much of my family left, because my mom died a long time ago. And I've lost a couple of brothers. And so I was always I've got my girls now, because I've been 20 years. And Megan spent on four and a half years. And I'm glad parts here, she nearly left but she came back. And she's just finishing I got nowhere. So at least I have someone but you don't realize how important family is. Until you don't have it, you sort of take it for granted a little bit. Don't ever let that just there. And they'll always be there. And then when they're not. Yeah, that's it. Lot My wife has some very nice kids. But he sounds like you've got the right attitude, though to, you know, to keep going, you have to believe. And my faith in God is the biggest part of my life. And I stepped away from it for a really long time. And I watched my life full and a whole year, I watched my marriage and he broke up quite a few times. And only a few years ago, I decided it was like there was something missing. And I decided I know what's missing. That's my faith in God. And, and it's strong, and it's what has kept me going over my life. And as I shared with you, I've watched depression, destroy my family, my brothers. I had a brother, eight years ago commit suicide. And him and I were not quite twins, but near enough. We're only 10 months apart. And so him and I were extremely close. And so that just rocked my world. I thought losing my mum when she was only 48 rocked my world until my brother died. So if you just have to. And people say to me, you don't get it, dude, you've never suffered it. No, I have lived it. Yeah, I have. I've been that other person sitting there living with it with all my brothers. And I've had two to three girlfriends that I have suffered extremely, really bad. I've got a really close friend that's going through lots right now. And I'm just there for her. You know, you can't and sometimes lose people. I lost one friend. It got to the point it was destroying me. Yeah. So you have to be careful. You do have to protect yourself. When it's your family. That's a little bit hard sometimes, but you do it. You have to go. Sorry. Yeah, you know, my brother's get that one that I've got here. It's not well, and the other one needs to wait. So it's just my two baby brothers. I've got left. And they suffer really, really bad. And it's really hard watching it. It's really hard watching it. So for many years, I had a fear of depression. The fear was, am I going to come down with that to watching my dad, and all my brothers pay for all attempted suicide. And it's it's heartbreaking. And so my faith is what has kept me. I truly believe my faith has kept me strong. Because I don't have a bad day. We all have bad days. And what do I do when I have a bad day? I pick up a book or I go into my painting like pick up the chromosomes that project I focus on something totally different. Yeah, get your mindset changed around My motto in life is today my mum was because she was so sick. My mum was a chronic asthmatic. From the day she was born to the day she died. And, and she was a very sick lady, but her motto in life was tonight. She would say, Well, yesterday, it's done. What can you do about it? Yep, don't let it destroy him. So what do we all do? Everybody likes the pest, control them, destroy them. And then we all stress about tomorrow. It hasn't even happened. Like, you know, someone asked me once, but how do you make plans? Okay, I'll make plans. That's That's simple. I don't stress about God, is this gonna happen? Is that gonna happen? I don't, I don't focus on that. I focus on today, I enjoy my day. Even if I don't do anything, and I'm sharing all day doesn't matter. I enjoy my day. And having eight grandchildren. Because being a grandmother is totally different from being on with your friends. Yeah. I loved being a mom. That was that something I absolutely loved. But having grandchildren. It's Sorry. It's what's so special. So special. I was there when the first two were born. And, and not being around five of them is pretty hard sometimes. Yeah. But the three that I have here, I spend as much time as I can. And I've been looking after Leo, every fortnight since he was born. So both could have some her time. And I just love it. I'll set their places like Grandma, Grandma Grandma that's so sweet, really sweet. When the kids were growing up and you're making you're making clothes, what are the things we're doing? At that time when the kids were growing up? I had just started teaching myself to paint. I tried to cut the class and send them thinking, oh, that didn't teach me anything. So I was determined to learn and how do you learn back in the old days, we never had YouTube. books, books, books. I just had a cupboard full of books and so teach myself to paint. Yeah, it was just high time. I don't know if you've ever heard about high tide. Yeah, we used to be at a Baptist church. Yeah, that was the go to. For us mums, yes mums. And it's quite sad. That's not around anymore, because I think there'd be a lot of young mums here that would benefit from it. But it was great because they had all these different craft groups. And so each month, you'd go from one to another to another. So you're learning different techniques. So you would learn something new. And like, you know how the modeling clay earrings are really been thought yeah, yes. Do I come back then? Yeah, I still got a brooch that I made. And, you know, just learning new things. I was always wanting to learn new things. And you know, even in dressmaking, you would learn that you'd say something and I'm like, by looks interesting, or I want to have a go there. And I remember my girlfriend Tracy, she actually gets in Queensland so so we still keep in touch. But she was going as well and then we'd get asked to teach. Yes, like, Whoa, dude, you can do that really? Well. Do you want to teach for us? I suppose. And I never we did these puff paint jump or year? Yeah, I asked my girls about oh my goodness. I didn't try Cisco. So I still talk about those puff paint jumpers. But so far, I mean, but the things we used to do, yeah, but ya know, they were good. times, like, you know, and I just think today I got a lot of social media, I watch a lot of home decor shows. And what, what inspires me now I see a lot of women out there building their own furniture and doing their houses. And I think that's amazing. Because I think you've got to have the mindset. Well, I don't know how to talk, but I'm going to try. Yes. And I think that is a really important mindset. Because as I say to people, you can't say you can't do something like this, you have to. I'm teaching myself watercolor. That's a whole new kettle of fish. I had a friend round the other day, my husband was away for the weekend. And so we did a bit of watercolor. And she said, Oh, look how much you've done. Do and I'm finding it easier, the more I practice is practice it. And it's like anything you do the same. You just can't say you can't do something. Because, you know, because there's a lot of people out there today, I suppose in a kid's generation. Don't know how to sell a button. Don't know how to cook properly. Because that guy can't do it. Yeah. Get out and try. Like, I'm learning to sew, I made my school uniform. Oh, wow. Because my dad didn't want to spend the money that it was gonna cost because even if cabling just strike gambling school skirts, I went to grant was still like $70. And back then that was a lot of money. And so I had this horrible skirt that I have plastic wasted. The boys would pick on me that pull it down. It was terrible. And so my mum brought some gambling, and that's I use it in my class at school. And my school I put a zip in a pencil case when I can make a skirt law, like, you know, for asking my teacher to I have to make a pencil case. And she said yes, it's a part of the class. I said, is it about a zip? She said, Yeah, well, I'm making my skirt for school. Why can't Why didn't zip in that? And she's like, Oh, well, there's no reason why. So I went from there and from there but my dress making just yet so it was good that you your teacher recognized, you know that you have that curiosity and that interest and supportive that you know, I think that's important. Yeah, to do that. Yeah, absolutely. I've taught a lot of things or these, you know, I've helped people to paint draw, or I've tried to question in class that was not easy. Yeah. Because so many different people at different stages. And I remember one class of you I just didn't stop I was just like, you pretty full on. A lot of people say, Oh, God teach us how to make those toys. And oh, can you crochet back to me, where do you think? A few. I so it's really robust, isn't he? Yeah. He's beautiful. So I'm doing just a few plank beers at the moment. Yeah. When my youngest daughter had a baby this year and I did her HIPAA bids and triple B's and stuff like that. And because I crush it baby blankets, I'm gonna do a couple of baby funds. And hopefully I can sell those so because that Not something you can just identify isn't it? Yeah, it's like when I was a baby, like I'm in the, the era of, of all that handmade, everything was made with love and special individual pieces. And then everything's just called mass produced company, that sort of stuff. And I feel like people are craving for that. And individual saving is by this very long. Yeah, I grow up so sleazy. And I think, also, like my mum used to say, back in her day, and we were dressed like baby babies for quite a long time. Yeah, yeah. held here in the zone. Actually gorgeous close out the best unless the other day looking at something kind of like, Oh, my goodness, I need another baby. Or I often get like that with girls clothes, because I've got two boys. And I've got a nice, so if I ever see something curious, Oh, get that for Ruby, you know, like into bike? Shop for boys kids. Yeah, so, but it's just crazy. Time just flies like, kind of 60s Just like I was about to turn 40 next year. And it's like, if you're 40. I'm the late 60s. Where's that time. But I think life is special. When I turned 50 I celebrated my 50th not just for me, but for my mom who never made 50 Because I thought she never got to this momentum of turning 50 which every year is upon. And a lot of people don't like to celebrate their birthdays, but it's an important part of our life. You know, it's just, and that milestone of 50. Like you said your mom's 48 Like, did that when you turned 48? Did you sort of go? Like, yeah, I noticed when Pete turned 48 Because he's a couple of years older than me. But then when I turned 48 online and see my mom because of her next sickness looks probably 1015 years older than what she was. So I'm like, 48 so young. Like it's so young. And why was unable to me it felt like it was only just beginning. Like it Yes. I'm coming up 60 In fact, nowadays we want to put 60 was really Oh, no, no, sorry, people. It's funny because I was the same I used to think 16 was really old. And then when Mum turned 66 It's not like anything. Like literally, like you said, you said you're not even you're not even like you hopefully, you know over halfway when you're 50 But you know, it's like, I don't I it's just did you have grandmothers used to dress older or subtle? Like, what? What might you do? Really all right now. I'm in coloring my hair for probably five, six years now. I just got it every now and then in summer. I put a couple of highlights in it, but that's about it. Because the cost factor is just getting too expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to say but then when I think about it, I look at peace parents and like Pete states money coming up 94 Just to kind of just raise any still leaves home, so it's a good effort. It's mum died. I think she was 86. And yeah, I think she always looked a lot older than what she was. I think it does. I think today we dress how we feel, you know? And when they go by you can't dress like that anymore because you're like the other 60 I'm gonna wear what I want. I'm not I haven't got the skin out everywhere and you know, I'm not trying to be like on 21 But yeah, that's what I want to dress like a no way either. Yeah, yeah. I reckon you know how everyone used to keep like the old ladies used to get that blue REITs and that here that they get like set they'll get their permits. Yes. Yeah, I reckon that had something to do with it. Definitely not gonna do. I wonder if that I've just like disappear out of the world. And it's not doing When I was talking before about it's never too late to learn new things. I have a camera now ticket 14. Yeah, I was actually I was gonna ask you that, you know, text sorry. Yeah, I, like I said, my price started to burn me out because it was like, I'd be up from one o'clock, two o'clock three o'clock in the morning making stuff ready for the market and stuff like that. And I remember I was doing a big fate I did a big fair, Tennyson, when they used to have a big fairs. And we had another one come up and I was just going to do this. And it was sold out in a day. Wow. And we have two days. And I'm like, so I was up till four o'clock in the morning, trying to get more stuff done to take the next day just to look like it was something there. And I remember saying to my husband, I don't think I can do this anymore. He said, Well, I said I'm just exhausted. I just can't do it. And the joys probably tape been taken out of it. Because it became too much of a job. Not an enjoyment. And so I get Okay, guys that I'm paying my now tech, she was going overseas and she said you never thought about being an outer and I just thought, oh hell no, I'm not working like you do. Anyway, she said to me, it's not like that. She said, You don't have to OSI. I'm in Adelaide and my train. And and yeah, I've worked from home for 20. Next January 20 years. COVID actually really affected my business. Yeah. In a big why. And then Pete and I went on a holiday and that affected my business. And in the end. You know, I think I think it's time time for a change. Yeah, so Yeah, John out, I'm gonna do something. Oh, yeah, I've got my eyes out on some filling work. You know. But yeah, I've got a few clients still, and I'm happy to stick with them for a little bit longer. And I know the time will come that I'll give it up because the body My back is not the best. And from leaning over 20 isolating. So I'm quite enjoying, like this work. I've only got four clients. That's fine. Like, you know, so I just enjoy it. And that's why I've really enjoyed the last few years of not being so busy and have to spend more time with my grandchildren to help out when it's needed if she's got to go into their business and do stuff. I mean, Pete just because my hat we sold we sold our main business five years ago. And so he works for the guy that brought it but he didn't go off when every law Yeah, so you know, last year we did two months traveling Australia in front of COVID. Everywhere we were when we left and to do that, we'll get to Queensland Raquel guys, Mum. Watch you guys were in lockdown. I saw that on the news. Like we've just got out of there. And the next place Oh my goodness to get stuck in our springs for a little bit. But yeah, it was crazy. We're just in front of it. I'm glad I'm glad life is going back to a bit of normality. There was more damage done in mental health than what there was in sickness. You know? It's just crazy and mental health. There's not enough support network. My brother has shared a lot with me about his and why he has been treated at that hospital is appalling. Not not being listened to. Nobody listened. As to nobody wants to believe it is all in your head. Yes, people that's mental illness, yes, get fired and do not have the support in mental health where it is needed. Like I said, I've lost two brothers due to mental health. One was so solid, and the other one had been an alcoholic since he was in his 20s. And I watched him wither away. And it was just really, really sad. byte of memory 49 They didn't get to 50. So, you know, and watching my baby brother, who lives here who is not well, and he shared some stuff with me other day. And when he left, I cried. Because I can't do anything. It's not my place to do anything. But it is absolutely the system's place. Yeah, just putting the right systems to help these people that need that help. And we live in a world it's all about money. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's something frustrates me so much. Everything is driven by money. Every single thing is driven by money. Unless you got money, you can't do nothing do and it's like, come on up. It's just crazy. I don't ever regret staying home being a mom. I loved being a mom. And I didn't go into the workforce and to make school so she was seven. So I was taught my girls, there's two things in life, you're going to sacrifice something. And I say it's going to be your family or it's going to be finance, you cannot have both. You cannot have lots of money, and be working, working, working. And expect to have the most amazing relationship. And I know there are some families that don't. But I know there are a lot of families out there that struggle. And I know, I remember my kids growing up, and I remember hearing their friends saying to them, You guys are so lucky that your mum is home. And their parents, both their parents say they could get whatever they wanted. Their parents brought them on it. It's not about that. It's about the quality time that you have with your kids. And, and I know their families out there because of the cost of living today and the cost of houses today. It isn't the best paint Nystrom to live. We the mortgage might not have been much back then. But neither was our high factor. Yeah, that's it's all relative. It's all relative like today. The pay packets are big, but your mortgage is a big. It's all the same packing line and pizza day. Like I've been in this house for 37 years. Yeah, this is the house he built when he was 23. Like, you know, I might have a lot now. But we've been here for a long time. Yeah. Let's see. It was instant. No, yeah. Worked out and made sacrifices. When I met Kate Kate heavies house when I met him. We had two beanbags in the lounge room. Yeah, we had beanbag, a bed, and a table. And that was it. There was no extras, there was no fancy stuff. And even as we're having our kids, we brought a lot of secondhand furniture, because the money just wasn't there. So you went without. And with my creative side, and during the markets, I brought some of my furniture from my house. And that was a good feeling because I'm not working. But I brought that yeah, it's such a good feeling. And, you know, but your life's not about money. You need money to live. But we don't, you know, you can't take it when you die. Nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. And so I really feel that life. Sometimes, sometimes I believe that life needs to go back to the basics. teaching in schools need to go back to the basics. Yep. Everything needs to go technology. It has its it has its purpose in life. And it's great and lies but Perth technology has already, I've noticed has destroyed humanity in a big way. I believe that kids play and use their imaginations. It's got to have technology in their hands. You know, and it's really really, really sad. Lee Our grandson, he's just at that stage where he wants to grab the phone all the time. And he knows they're all in grandma's house. The phone's off limits. Yeah. None of my grandkids have ever touched my phone. Yeah, it is off limits. But I see what kids do with phones. And we just live in that world of that technology that they've got their faces in the phones or their tablets. Yeah, and I think, pick up a book. I love books, because they're awesome. There's some you're seeing the other day, because when I have people on the podcast that often send me their books if they're an author. And I think this is so good that bosses like I like music school online so much. But now records are coming back. You know, people still want things in the hands. You know, it's almost like projecting that so as the stage that pokes it was when the Kabu tablets come out to read books. Yeah. And I do use it at certain times, even on my phone, I use it at certain times. And that's when we're traveling. And I haven't really taken away the books. So that the purpose Yeah, but you can't read a book in your head. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. I just finished a book at the moment. And it was amazing and awesome, was away. And I was like, that's like yesterday, I was planning to do something for boys. And we went to the pub for lunch. And then I came home and I was laying down on Kashmir, and I'm like, I'm gonna have a man of that today. Don't do that. Yeah. And I laid on the couch. And I woke up at 530. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I slept through and it was crazy. So and then I didn't go to sleep till late last night. The concept of mum guilt is something that I'd like to talk to all my moms about on the show. And I guess I can throw it over to you to share your thoughts on that. We've had that before. My mum guilt has been Did I do it? Right? I say sometimes I'll say some struggles my kids go through. And I was quite a protective mum. One my five. But two because of where I came from. So I had an abusive father. So I went through a lot. So I probably tried to over protect my kids safe for a while. And, you know, I just made sure that I tried to spend as much time with my kids and do the kid things. And so most of the time my creative side didn't connect to them. Yeah, right. Yeah. So it was once they were in bed, then some shaman come out, or the paint brushes that come out. That when they were young definitely spent lots and lots of time. Because once they're at school, you have all the time in the world to do all the things that I needed. But what our little what I wanted to make sure. And then when they become teenagers, you do you have that monkey cool in the sense of Did I do it right? Did I overstep boundaries? Or, you know, I remember I have a lady asked me, What do you had three daughters? How do you do it? Like I remember, they're all different. None of them are the same. You can't treat them as the same because that individuals remember what you did. Because they're going to do it. So it doesn't matter. You can go well I did this and my kids are not going to do that. And guess what people? Yes, they are not going to tell you why girls have told me so many things now that they're adults. Am I happy about it? No. But you know it everyone's life. And yeah, we survived to house three teenage girls. Yeah, we didn't have two bathrooms. At the time. So far, my husband has been around him because he's got three sisters or goodness even the animals are females you're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was in New Haven. As a mature woman these days, when I talk to younger mums, the biggest thing I say to women off today, don't feel guilty, like the mum guilt, or you no need to spend more time with them, or I haven't done this with them or that that only pulls you down. That doesn't help them either. But I remember reading something quite a while back. And if I hadn't known this, I think things might have been different. And it's putting, putting the aspects of your life in order. And this guy said, it's, you need to put yourself first, you have to look after yourself. Because if you don't look after yourself, and you fall into a hole, everything around you falls into a hole. So you've got to and it's not about being selfish, it's about just giving yourself a little bit of quality time, go away. My quality time with the kids while I'm having a bar hump and nighttime, yeah, they knew they couldn't come into their mum's time, you know. And it's just a time for you to just chill out or whatever. They put your husband next, not your children, yeah, marriages fall apart, because the husband comes to a point where it just think he's not loved and not wanted anymore. Because we were so busy with our kids, and everything else that they become lost. And so this gentleman said it should be you put yourself first put your husband next, then your children, then everything else comes after that. And being a mature person now and I can look at that guy. And that is so true. Because I know the struggles that my marriage went through and the hardship that my marriage went through. And if things if we had a built a marriage differently on those aspects, we would have had a stronger marriage, you know, we're still together, praise God, we're still together. But um, you know, and I think that's important. And you're not to allow those self doubts to control you. Because that can happen. Big time. You know? You can look back in life, I suppose. I've been through a lot in my life. And and it's there's been doubts, in fact, did this this way. That wouldn't happen. You can't do that. Yeah, that's yesterday. You can't do in the past. You know, forgiveness, huge thing, a positive thing that everybody needs to do. I bring an outtake, you hear a lot of things. Yeah. You hear a lot of things in I've heard a lot of sad things in my life with people, the hatred that they hold towards a family member, or the, you know, a mother and daughter that hadn't spoken for 25 years. And that just rips me to pieces because my mom and I were so close. We did so much together and then losing her so young. And I always, I always come back to what I say to my girls never allow anything to come between us. Not a disagreement. Not everybody has the right to have their own personal choice of something. But if something comes between us, don't be too pigheaded to go and say I'm sorry. Even if the other person did something wrong. You'd be strong enough to go I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. I love you. I care about you. Please don't let this affect everybody. unchecked, because we allow the little things for too long to destroy and take a look at the world. It's just distracting itself in life, you know? And it's quite sad answer keys, Nurse causes sickness in the body. Yeah, it causes depression, it causes so much more. And, you know, I've seen so much through my brothers. Everything, they still hold anger and resentment against my dad, for how he treated us and what he put us through. And I got to the point, I forgave him when I was 19. I became a mom at 19. And I wanted more and better for my life, and also for her life. And at that time, I wasn't even a believer in God. I believe now that God spoke to my heart, because I made that choice to forgive him and move on. And, you know, it took a long time for me to learn to love him again. And I think deep down I always did, because he was my dad. Did I like the person he had to come? No, not at all. And sometimes you don't have to, like, who's someone that comes. But that hatred, it's not a good thing. It will disrupt everything around you, it will destroy your marriage, it will destroy your life between you and your children. And it's, it's not a good thing. And you see so much hatred in the world. And that's why there is so much destruction. And I think, living a positive life. And I know some people find that hard. But being a positive person isn't that hard. It's just looking and believing for better, you know, believing that it can get better. And yes, sometimes it doesn't. But it's having that hope. That's what God gives me that hope in life, life will be better. And I think a lot of people blame culture a lot of things. I don't and we all have free will. And it does give us that free will. He gives me hope that even if you're going through a tough time, it can't get better. You have to want it and you just have to find a way to step out or our way. I love my artwork. Sweet German Yeah, a lot of my grandkids I give me enjoyment my children give me enjoyment. You got to find something that will give you a joy instead of just holding on to the negativity Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Cuz you're right. It is incredibly disruptive and as physically you know festers in your body and comes out in illnesses and disease and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it's it's it's a pretty massive thing to be able to forgive someone. You know, like you said, you don't have to lie. No, you don't have to like who they were at the time. Yeah. Or who you know, you don't have to like the situation. Yeah. But if you have that hatred in you, I know that person I became, in my teenage life, I didn't like who I was. And even though I tried really hard to be that bubbly person and be positive. I was felt like I was dying inside. And it wasn't until I made that decision to forgive my father. And it was pretty serious. The stuff that I went through in my family that most people thought, No way. Could I do that. But I did that because I wanted to. Yeah, it wasn't about him nice about that. Yeah. And you know what forgiveness isn't about the other person. But did you know, hatred is not about the other person? Because it actually doesn't hurt them? No, that's it, isn't it? You're the one suffering, you're the one that suffered. So the hatred festers in you makes you an angry person, a wild person out of control person, and the person you're putting all that hatred to, doesn't even know what you're feeling. So you know, and I realized that 19 isn't very profound. And I always look back at that. And I remember exactly, I could see myself doing it in my bedroom, it led straight just around the corner. And recall was one years old. I was before I met. So yeah, and I just, and I think that's fine. We can have bad days, we can get upset, that's life that happens, we can die have days of crime on the couch. Been there done that too. But if you allow those situations to fully control you, and not have to step out of them, that's when the depression really comes in. And I've watched that one of my closest friends, due to a situation that have ended depression has just taken a hold of it. And it's really sad. It's sad to watch. It said, I feel helpless, because I can't help it out of it. Try. But you know, that we can do is be there for them. Yeah, that's it. Like you said, it's, you can try. But that person has had gone to do the work, which is unfortunate, but also powerful for them. If they embrace that, you know, they're in control of this situation, they can get themselves out of it. Yeah. If people can get themselves out of it. But I think if there's support networks, not out there, oh, yeah. Let's say, you can't do it on your own. You know, watching my brother became an alcoholic, his whole life, you know, bumped into him down the street was really sad, because we sci fi switch up. And that's all that would come out. And I think, you know, I didn't know who he was. But I was there for him when he was dying, because I swore that he would never suffer on his own in the end. And that was really that that was really, really tough. That wasn't easy. Sitting at a hospital watching someone's life, you know, disintegrate like that. But it also made me a stronger person. Knowing that, you know, if we've got family members that are going through the hard times. Even though we can't always change the situation. All we need to show them is that we still love them. And I think that's the important thing. Because you see some families where they go, oh, yeah, I can't be bothered dealing with her anymore. It's just too much hassle. And she's over exaggerating. And data added. I just think she's your family. Just love her. Just love her for who she is. Yeah, it's not easy, but it's not easy for them to know how to how they can even comprehend what goes through their heads. You just can't comprehend it. And and so it's just a matter of loving and caring about those people that are in your family, whether it's your children. You know, I saw a lady the other day and she came up and said hello to us at lunch yesterday in Shetland baby in arms and it's all babies it's been fostered and, and fine. I just looked at each other and it just went Oh, that is so sad. Like, you know, it's been in the foster system since he was five days old. And, you know, it's we had to help society. How do you help people to change? I think trying to teach people how to be positive how to have hope. Yeah. It's a pretty good message. I have heart. Yeah. That was a big thing that's really important. When you became a newer, like, you talked about having a bath and like this is this is your time, you know, you've got three girls in the house. Was it hard to keep your own identity? As Judy, when you was putting so much into you? I think you do focus a little bit. When when, especially when your children are really young. Because when they're really young, they totally depend on uni and everything. So you know, that might drive Yes. Oh, oh, later on, when I gotta get out, I'm going to shut off. Yeah, yeah, I do think you do lose a little bit. Like I said, giving yourself some space. And having a bit of you time is important. Going out on a date with your husband. It's important. They are important things. And I think a lot of time we get so busy with everything around us. And I know I'll definitely do. Like I said, it wasn't until way after the kids were gone that I made that bet how to put your family, you know, you, your husband, and then your children. And so a lot of time, you're so busy with your children and doing this and doing that and doing this and that you don't give yourself and so you do lose a part of yourself. My goal, it was really funny. Growing up, I wanted to be a beautician. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. A lot of fun cover a lot of fashion like that has brought right from a little girl mom was always in my mom's wardrobe. She's like, you know, so, but it didn't happen. And then I became a nya tech at 14. And I actually went and did a little bit of makeup artistry. Because I was gonna do that with the now. But now it's just too much more time. So I just ended up letting go. But it was it was a dream as a child, that's what I wanted to do. And so there for a while, I felt like I had lost a part of myself because I didn't get to do what I wanted to do. But I loved being a mum. So and I made that choice. My husband and I we sat down and we discussed I have a daughter when I met Pete she was two and I met him. And so then when we had our children we discussed and I said what do you want? If you want me to go and find a job or gone and he said no. This is it really for the girls. You know, and I think that's because we've commanded the passport mums did yeah, I can i and t they were time financially, that extra money would have been handing, but we need to go without you learned to go without you learn to just live off what they've got, you know, they still have food in their stomach and a roof over their head. You know, and at that stage that sort of opened my eyes up to my mom, because my mom bringing us five kids up on her own. But same thing we had a roof over our head, clothes on our back feed on their feeding or something. We're closed speech at night though A lot of times over secondhand clothes, mom did a bit of work in one of the secondhand shops. And she picked right through it and buy some nice things. But, you know, she did what she had to do as a single mom in the end. And I mean, in the early days, there was no pension. Yeah, she was lucky, because my mom was so sick, she couldn't actually hold a job down. But the pension had just come in and wholesome very much, but she managed. I was 16 When my dad left, so I left school to go out work to help provide for my family, you know, it wasn't well, and it wasn't easy. I didn't have the best model with work in my early days. And, and I was on the dole, well, that's fine. I handed that over to my mom, like, you know, yeah, I did what I could do. But losing a part of your identity. I think happens to all of us at some stage in our life, I think that have a life. And they should become a really big, career driven one. Do you think that helped you come back to yourself? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It was all they always say. I caught up with an old girlfriend at Christmas time. We were best friends growing up. And I hadn't seen her for a long time. And she come in and she said, Where did it come from? I said, I think it was always there. I used to draw a lot as a young girl, I'd sit my bedroom, paper and Palin. I think growing up in a house full of men. It was my only way to get away from everything. So I'm sitting in my bedroom a lot with drawing whatever car I knew I loved cars. And so I said it was always there. Just the finances weren't there for me to do it. So even being a single mom, the finances were there to do it. My creativity was really big on my dressmaking. I would go into this fabric store that we used to have in town. And and I knew Margaret quite well, because her daughter and I went to school together and I would go in and she said so what are we looking for today? Do just a bit of February. She said I function on the weekend. Okay, yep. Gotcha. Yeah, didn't have the money to go and buy a fully priced fabric. So I would go through and reminisce. And I'd say that my oldest is big enough for school. Why can I pick that? And then I'd go through. Oh, hey, this. That'll work. Yeah. Spend $5. Yeah, I think sometimes it cost me February. And I could back then because I used to write really simple basic stuff. I didn't need a pen color pattern off something that I had. So that creativity Big Time Bank as a single mum. And because I used to put my money into my daughter to buy her clothes or make some clothes for her. So I would just buy the scrap fabrics to make something for myself. Yes. So and I worked on my mom's trailside washing Peter gown. Oh, wow. And then then I met Pete and his mum gave me her old Brother Song fishing. She said you know don't use it anymore. You can have it. And I was like what Christmas is kind of what Yes, like I really miss the old treadle they are they have do French things really well. Yeah. That stitcher was also funny So, I think if you can look back at your life and, and not look at the negativity of your life, because we've all had bad stuff, a lot of us have had bad stuff in life. But look at the things that have made you who you are. You know, my mom, she was my biggest inspiration. I want it to be like her. I think she'd be proud of. So she's smarter than me. She'd be laughing at something she'd be like, Jeanne kitchen. I look at my girls. And like, I was blessed to have daughters hung up in a house for me. All I wanted was a sister. Yeah. I want a sister. That's not gonna happen. I have it all. I have my sister in law that I'm really close to. But, you know, I really believed I was blessed to be given dollars, because it was like given me something that I credit for as a child. That sister. You know, I'm the oldest in the family. And then it's boy, boy, that was five of them. Five, very close in age. My mom had six kids in five years, Holly, Molly's twins. Goodness gracious. And I used to say to her, Hey, did mom and then when the kids were growing up, she would say something like I had one you've got three teenagers and I knew what she was going oh my god. Yep, I've got three that's a challenge. whities get to teenagers. My oldest grandson just turned 16. Yeah, right. Goodness. So what's the age range of your grandchildren? So from 16 to four months? Oh, wow. Yeah, right. Yeah. Oh, lovely. So there's four boys and four girls. I have here two boys and girls just steaming. And then the other girls listen to this. Now there's no favoritism. But Stevie's here, and she's the only girl that I've got to spend time with. And so I love spending time with her. But I love going to Queensland and spending time with my other grandkids. So I've got three here and five up there. So yeah, so there's two boys and three girls. Yeah, so yeah, oldest to 16. And the youngest is five months. So and that brothers, by the way, yeah. Right. To say, to say Brooklyn, with his baby brother in his arms. And like it, he's six foot to six foot three. And he's got a photo of his brother in his arms. just melted. And honestly, when he was born, I was just like, wow. So, you know, that's pretty big age gap. And I know that gap will be there for a long time. But there will come a time where that gap will disappear. You see that with a siblings where there's, you know, ages between them. So you know, I hadn't hadn't families don't like 13 kids. So that's when the mom really would have lost her identity. She reminds me of down at Kleiner. D. There's a gravestone because my grandparents buried there. My dad saw it. And it just says, Mother, it doesn't even say good night. It was like literally that's what she was just being a mother. You know, she probably had just finished reading a novel and it was written in the times of before women could vote. Yeah, and how go home and breed. Anyway, this one woman, she was quite well to do. But she got kicked out and she ended up in a mining town. Well, she inherited a news agency from her while she thought it was her uncle, and as she found out it was actually her father. So she inherited this and everybody said now she's not gonna laugh. She's not gonna laugh. And she was determined and she changed that whole town. Yeah, aspect of that whole town. How people looked at things and how people do things. I mean, it was a Christian novel, and it was so well written. Francine rivers, she's one of my favorite horses. But he was how women were looked at. Oh, yeah. And I know we've come a long way. In that sometimes I worry about, have we taken away too much from the Ventus identity? Because there are a lot of families out there that women roam the house. And I don't know, something my husband and I have talked about that, you know. And I don't believe we have to live in a world where the husband just goes up and works all day and the woman stays home and does nothing, I don't believe in it. But I definitely believe in equal, equal equal, not. Even a woman shouldn't be higher than men. And women should be equal treat each other equally. And I know there's still men out there that are like cavemen who want to, you know, hold the roast and drag the woman by the hair, like, you know, Oh, guys, just time for a while, but the world technology has definitely changed the world. I suppose Britain and abroad changed the world to. I remember, a lady sent me a lot of print. And she separated from her husband. And like I said, pipeline, and we separate the fact that she said, How did you say that you said, because we wanted to make it work. We could have just taken the easy way out. But at the end of the day, it was only gonna hurt our kids, it's gonna hurt ourselves. And at the time, could have quite easily just walked out and started a new life. And that wasn't my that wasn't my motto. That wasn't my dream. My dream was to be with Caleb for the rest of my life. And to watch, I think, because I grew up in it. You know, my dad walked out on us. No, I did not want to do the same thing. And this made us stronger. Because we fought harder. And I think we need to fight harder for things in the world that we're living today. It's too easy just to go on. I'd love you. Anyone leaving? Yeah. Do you think that's why the the, the percentages of of divorce have skyrocketed. A couple of generations of people scattered jihad, and off they go. I know, I know a few people that said they wish that given a better chance. You know, if I only had, because it's more of my screen. Offense, that's the thing isn't? Fair, it's just go with the same thing. Yeah. Like, you know. Some, and I think that's where if we do the right balance in our lives, in our families, with you, your husband, your children, then everything else after that. If you do that right balance, then I really believe that the balance will be right in your family too. Because you're so busy with the kids, you're so busy with everything else running around, you don't give that quality time to your partner. And then what happens you drift apart. So you don't connect the way you used to. And to try and make that connection again, isn't easy. It's hard work. But you know, and then try it once your kids move away. Yeah. And you're living in a house and I know, lots of marriages that break up at that point. Because, you know, you're not even talking together. Yeah, you just live in a house together. And so, you've got to start again, to build that relationship. And some people just can't be bothered to do that. So they just think well, I'm done on on out of this. You know, my husband has his creative side. He loves work given he's done like we've renovated our house and picked it a lot of stuff in the house. The petitioner the door, he built it in my fireplace mantel piece. He built the book all over that they sit under he built um so he he has his creative side of things. And he races off road buggies and he was just a way this weekend. You got to allow them to have their space to wait Want to have our space but they've got to have their space as well. And my husband and I, we don't live in each other's pockets. Quite comfortable. Pricing, I didn't want to go this time. So I did last month I went this month I stayed on. I was quite happy to stay home. And, and sometimes I don't go away as much as I used to. I used to go away a lot as a now ticked go away with training and stuff. And he was quite happy with that. I think you just got to come to an agreement. And learn to live together in that way. And learn to work together, work together as parents for your children. Not allow one person to make all the decisions. Yeah, not to allow poor moms. I think moms get bad rap, really. Because that's a wild die and mom's busy. Gone. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do this. And then dad walks in the door and go, you can do what you like. Yes, you know, yeah. And my mom used to say that we were always really naughty girls for her all day, and the dad would come home and then we'd be on our best behavior. Daddy was bowing. It was going be too scared to be naughty. Don't try to your father ago. I remember watching Pete sit down behind Barbie dolls with the girls. You know, his role was when he walked in the door. Let me have more coffee. Stop having coffee. We I know in business. So yeah. And it's hard to switch off from that. It's like you just you're all the time because it's you. And you know, like he's loving right now being semi retired because he goes to work, he comes home for lunch. And then he comes home at the end of the day. And he has no headaches. We had a business for 36 years. So we had those headaches for 36 years. And but he always made quality time for his kids. We always made sure we weren't working on the weekends, every now and then he'd pop into the office on a Saturday morning or hid behind, I would pop into the office because I'd have to go and do a bit of work. But let's say that when we took over the business, that was something I had to step into. Yeah. Because before that we had a secretary when we had the two partners. So then when he left financially, we couldn't afford to pay anybody. So it was like I gave up my art studio to go work in the office. And that wasn't too bad because I didn't need to be there 24/7. So I would be there a couple of days a week to do or okay paydays these days, I'd go in there for two hours and leave. So being an outtake, and doing that, it was a bit of a juggle, but it worked. Because I could still do business more than myself in my own business, and juggle that, but still be there to do what I had to do with the other business. And I was so happy when that was so quiet my monthly you know, best. And I remember when it takes changing from and then the GST came in and everything and that slightly, I had to go and do training, like, and then we had to get all this special. And the technology and when you're in business and thinking of like we started, Pete started his business in the IDs. And then, you know, the technology year after year after year changing and how things were done. I remember even in the early years, he would come home with written codes. And I would sit down at the table to do them properly. Yeah, he would do the rough. Like yeah, I'd be on that boat what does this mean? And then because he wanted to go computerized and his business partner didn't want to spend the money so in the end when we brought him out we went for computerized so I'm going to type to how to work a computer. Yeah, I think we have a special program so that didn't even work anyway. So it was like my general this training all over again. Because yeah, this program it was because we had a panel breeding business was specially made for that. Yeah. And then you go from the das System to Windows system. Everything changes so off just completely changes over time. But yes, I'm so glad I've done so Want to know? What do you want to know how will sleep? Three just turn three? He just said his birthday. And his favorite thing amongst attracts nah. Yeah, I mean yet lots of them lots of of hate here. He just loves him and he gets them away. We've lined them all up around the island. Bye, guys. How about this one? Down the hallway of her house. Okay, so quiet getting busy. Kind of interesting. So I want to ask you, bear, I've been watching on your Instagram, this evolution of this painting that you're working on at the moment. I used to do a lot of fine art paperwork for probably seven years. And that's great. But a lot of hours go into it. And not because I stopped doing the paintbrush because it's just so much miss and time and being an artist. I just didn't have the time because I was pretty much working full time. And so then the payment was good, because I can't watch TV without doing something. Yeah, I could have that sitting on it. Or just don't attend to live pieces. How can you do that and watch TV at some point. I'm not watching on this thing. Yeah, yeah. If I need to look I can. I can I can teach the white crow strings crashing. I watched the video guy that Crusher Crusher Crusher really fast one Yeah. No. Why would you even do that? It's about enjoyment. Enjoy. Yeah. There's not a competition to say how quick you can crusher a blanket, right? Yeah. Anyway, I was watching this video on this boy. And he was crushing so fast. He kept me here. But anyway, so I was doing all this paperwork for a long time. And then I decided to challenge myself on watercolor. And so I enjoy that, because that's just an easy, relaxed. And what got me back into the brushes also did a painting for both her house and was huge. Yeah, absolutely. Two meters by 1.5. It was enormous. She had brought a piece of artwork for a bedroom, and she wanted to get one for a dining room and kept saying, show me like two guys go and say Ma'am, you can do that. Yeah, I can do. So I said I can do that. Anyway. So I'll jump for you if you want might as well even copy the painting that you love. And just change it up a little bit. Anyway, because it was it was pretty much block car, like there was no detailing in it. So anyway, she walked away. And she came back she was already righty. So I'll do up here for Christmas present. So it was kind of paint brush back in my hand. I'm liking this. So I'm doing at the moment is what it's going to hang out front door. I just have a picture of these big flowers, and it's gonna have a butterfly in the middle of it. So butterfly. And then I was looking at photos of butterflies and flowers. And I'm like, well I have can I do that because butterflies are actually bigger than flowers. I just don't want a butterfly on a canvas doesn't matter. It's just the concept of it. And what I'm enjoying at the moment is this no rush. It's when I'm in the mood, go up there and do a little bit more, you know, non flowers. And I like to think about what I'm doing I like to think about and I like to study flowers. So I like a bit of detail work not just a block color. And I mean, before I started I was on Pinterest looking I get lots of paintings, modern artwork and lots of stuff trying to work out what I wanted. I just wanted I just decided I wanted to pop a color in the house. As you can see, my places hasn't been of color, but not a huge amount. It's a very nice color you teach you and yeah, so when we renovated the house, we wanted everything. It used to be Craven flooring. Anyway, so when I repainted I went for that really nice. It's called like rice in the living room. And that's pretty much true the rest of the house when I come to the kitchen, I need some color in here. Because otherwise it would just look playing from the tiles and everything would have just got lost. Yeah, yeah. The paychecks I know and I painted some colors. Well, he went down and I painted my kitchen. Oh, my friends laughed about it. When he come home is like we've had this color before our bedroom yesterday this car. Okay, but it's my favorite color. So decayed blue. It's easy to live with. But yeah, I wanted to pop a color. So I've done these flowers and they're like, apricot a terracotta Yeah. And then it'll have a butterfly that I've been looking at lots of peaches, butterflies. I'll find one that really jumps at me. And she's been in the shade these first I was at the Melbourne Zoo and Melbourne Museum during the week. And the amount of dead animals that they have there are people who have like the the wooden sort of frames and then in the butterfly oh my gosh, there was some absolutely gorgeous one. Oh, that's amazing. Butterflies are like the like the the vibrancy. I can't see the reflection of the grass. But the vibrancy in these colors. I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, they exist like that. Yeah, I'll continue that one. That's it kids birdwing? Yeah, just because I've got the ICER caught on something with a bit of blue on it. Yeah. You have to have blue in it. That's a trademark is nobody goes on about my turquoise and aqua colors. But it's just an easy color to take come home. And it was great posturing, the chairs and the old Dawn swing. I had done three and I needed to do the other three. Because I finally finishing those. I said yes. And sorry. Anyway, come back and said I just need to tell you because I sit down. I'm finishing these because I've solved the tables. Why have you sold it? Because I probably knew that my girlfriends and I was showing her and she said what are you gonna do and I went by the phone technology is good sometimes. It has. So reposting so you're quite adept at that is not intricate, but the seats were just plain and I got a quote to get them down like you're not paying that. So I think I could do a count to I'd love to have my couch reupholstered in there because it's just gotten really glossy and also dependent Yeah, I'm actually tempted to make a slip cover for Yeah, so I said depends on me. I'll try and make a slip cut before I said because the cushions I can cover the cushions is enough to try and get that couch that rams Yeah, so I just thought oh, maybe a challenge for you. Yeah. Every now and then that's literally like your motto in life be seen. Give it a crack and see how it goes. I even my son little bit of money, but there's a feeling when you give something a challenge and you do it. It's like I did that. Wow, that makes me feel good. You know. I had my friend that came in the other day that did a bit of painting with me. She's looking at my artwork. She's like, No, no, we're not buying artwork. When I do artwork. I don't see the point. Yeah, and this. I have one case that I brought. I have a friend in Victoria And I was chatting with her. And she's a quirky artist. And, and obviously my early days of joining the penwork and I just fell in love with this place. And she was funny. She thinks it's one of the worst places she said I still got, you know, but I don't have the money to go out and spend 1000s of dollars on a piece of art. But I can have a painting up on a wall and I can go Yeah, I'm over that now. Yeah, can I change? I need to change and change that. Yeah. Because I've got another big canvas that's gonna get on that wall. Yeah, and that's a meter and a half by meter so it's quite few so I'd have thought about what I'm gonna do my not yet finished. Yes, it finished your flowers. So what inspires you then with you? You're painting like natural the natural world it's just anything that anything anything that bugs me yet you know, at the moment, birds have grabbed me as you can see, I've got a few birds. I follow he's a Krishna has over in Russia or somewhere over Ukraine or wherever, somewhere over that way. And he does these most amazing food paintings. And there's actually a lady in Australia. who works at Castlemaine. And she does really good ones, too. I kik messenger, so many to teach. I want to come over for a workshop. You know, it's not about if something just grabs my attention, yeah, like, you know, yeah. I've had a go at some of the really ultra modern art. Yeah, and that's easy. Five Year Old can do that. Like real abstract, sort of, yeah, splashes and things like that. Yeah. Pete's got one in the family room. I've been going to get rid of at night Smart Girls. So yeah, and I say that you know, it's like when you decorate your home if you think over the years I've been here 37 years Yes. Big coats of paint and with that cover so and right now what's coming really big apricot? Yeah, I forgot become a huge again. Well, ladies, guess what? It was really big in the 90s. So you know, you go you go through those changes and country country. Oh, my goodness. I had chickens walking around my walls. Yeah, you know, chicken phrase wallpaper and and we all have a laugh about it. Remember, mom's kitchen. Terracotta rag down the bottom and change changes, good changes. Good. You're not afraid of change. Now. You know what? I went and visited my mother the other day. And their house still looks like the way it was when they brought it. They've never done anything new to us that they did put in a new kitchen. But when you go into their lounge room, we've still got the 70s couch. But it's really clean and it's really tidy. And doesn't feel oh, yeah, right. But it's so them and they're not at 90s. And I just think what I love fresh. It's not about changing the furniture. It's about just having a fresh coat of paint or if a curtains I've just replaced my curtains do these? Yeah, it's about and I've done that expensive. Paying, you know, someone to make curtains now comes as spotlight. Yeah, it's ready to hang on. To him. Yep. But But yeah, it's, you can you can decorate your home on the smallest budget, but you can decorate your home on the biggest budget. And you know, I think it's people so you've got so much and you can do it. Oh, you see on the site in my studio. There's a lot of stuff. Like because I like things. Yeah, I'm very sentimental. Yeah, so if someone gave me something or I've got something from somewhere special, that's not going away. That's gonna, you know, I just like it's clean and tidy, but there's just a lot of stuff in there. I like a homely feel in a house of like a lift in your house that feels like someone lives in a not a house like that. Yeah, I couldn't live like that, like kitchens clean at the moment. Like, you know, it's like you said before, it's a lot of things. So Do you know when? When when you're a mum of three young children, and there's plenty of us out there that you stress yourself out because your house doesn't look a certain way. Don't worry about it. Don't let the things of what other people think, get to you. Because I remember I met a girl for the first time. Anyway, we were going to a function of something. And she said, I'll pick you up, dude. I'm not Yeah, right now. Anyway, and she knocked on the door and I yelled at come in and, and I was sitting at the fire rating the girls here and just had their boss they had their pajamas on. And I was going to be away for two nights. And so I wanted to make sure everything was right and whatnot. And when I was in her car, she goes, I owe you an apology. I say why? And she said, because I've judged you without actually getting because someone told me that you live in a pigsty. And I said to her, what, because I have three children there. Sometimes it's Washington everywhere. And this and that. And I said to her, I said, I don't judge people by their homes. If I want to be friends with someone, and things get on top of them. Who can't go and visit them for them. Don't make people because that what happens is then you stop wanting people to come to your house. Because you put yourself in a box and you go, Oh, if that's what people think I don't want them to come and listen, I'm not good enough to have people into my mind. Yeah, that's right. And it's not this not a nice feeling to have. I just laughed. I was just like, No, but I knew who it was. I was gonna say it was that first and saying things like, yeah, it was and I just thought, you know what, that's a problem. Okay. Because I have a home. Yeah. And it probably shows to, you know, some people judging people. So people can look very superficially, like, what's really important to this is worrying what people think of them. Yeah, you know, I don't care what people think, you know, I've got a brother who's really, really sick, has no energy, and his house is upside down. Now, I've lost a superficial person, I wouldn't even step into his house. I try and offer to help him because might not know. But it's not. It's not about, you know, I get a lot of comments from people come into my house, and I take that. Thank you very much. But I don't do my house up, plays out. There's yeah, I've done my house that I like. And it's like all of a sudden, a few have, because I love the Hamptons. Yeah. And on a few blocks, and I've put up a couple of photos. It was a couple of negatives. And I said, You know what, if you don't like what I've done, that's fine by me. But you can keep your opinions to this thing. And so now I don't do social media. Yeah. It's always gonna be someone, there is always someone even if, even if they don't necessarily mean what they say there's someone who wants to cause drama, you know, they want to say negative comment because they want to interaction, you know, most people that say negative comments are people that are not happy with what they've got. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a real reflection on them. You know, same thing. bullies, and bullies, because something's going on in their life. Yeah, that's, you know, that wasn't what another big thing that I taught my children was, don't judge a book by its cover, you know? And have I been guilty of it? Absolutely. I remember a person who I became really good friends with. I judged her the first few times I met her. I thought she was stuck up, really. And then I was working for Justin jeans. And we had to do an ad. And so we had to spend a bit of time together because she was one of the other models. And then I got asked to take home and she invited me in for coffee. And we got sat down and had a chat. And she told me her life story and it broke my heart. Nobody knows what's going on in somebody's life. You know, I, myself, growing up through some pretty horrific stuff always came across a bubbly person that nobody knew deep down what I was going through. I still remember the good times. Yeah, because there's probably a lot more good times and negative. And sometimes the negatives can be really strong. So it's really hard to get your eyes away from Yeah, once you start looking back in and then I just think it's all the good times that we need to remember. Think wisdom comes from age. And if we can, I've learned a lot from older women. If I can't pass a bit of wisdom on to others that are listening in, I think then what are we here for? I think I think it's really wise and sustainless when our, my girls, once they get to, you get to a certain age and you go, Wow, if I hadn't done that a little bit different. Well, they've got kids pass it on to your kids. Yeah, because things won't change. Things aren't going to change unless we pass the wisdom on to our, to our children and our grandchildren. And, you know, my biggest thing is, give it a go. Don't be scared to give anything go. You know. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like it if you like it, that's fine. This is good. This is like a different dimension, a different perspective. You know, all the things you've been able to share today is wonderful. Because yeah, there's, I think sometimes when you're down in the trenches with your little ease, or you know, your newborns or different years that you're working through, you can think, Oh, it's so bad, I'll never get better. It's like, you know, you've been through all of that you're enjoying this next phase of your life. And it's really lovely to be able to share those experiences a good spot, you might cap live and let go of all and how you said those times where we feel like, do we do the right thing? It doesn't matter? Because you can't get back? Yeah. So what you do is you just take the next step on for July, and just love on your children, because the biggest thing is just love on them. And even when they become teenagers, like driving the same. And you know, one males and 17 You just love on your kids, and that should never stop should never stop you should constantly and they will definitely do things that you might agree with. And you know, and even as adults, they will do things that you won't agree with. And at the end of the day, they're still your children. And you still should love them no matter what. Because if they're not around you, it makes you really miss them lots and I miss my girls every day. And I miss my mum every day. And I'm watching now my friends dealing with their older parents. So part of means I miss my mum but a part of me it's glad I don't have to watch her get old and wither away either. But she she suffered enough in her early years. But you know, you just got to take life as it is. Make the most of it. But you're most of it, because nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. Yeah, you know, that's why we just need to leave for today and make the most of it and don't whinge about not doing something. Yeah, just go and do it. Just do it. Yeah, that's it. Thank you for today. Oh, thank you. Thanks. So lovely. Thank you for having me. Beautiful home. Welcome. I love these blues. It's like my jury. I gotta thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Shanelle Franklin Australian MC, podcaster and producer S1 Ep23 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Shanelle Franklin is a presenter, producer, podcaster, voice over artist, MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and a mum of 2. ​ Shanelle has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade with brands such as Channel 9, SAFM, Fresh 927, Foxtel, Music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on Fresh 927 where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. She has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room, and she produced, directed and presented her own tv show Jam LIVE which aired on Chanel 9 Adelaide and 9NOW. She has conducted the Red Carpet Interviews and Emceed the South Australian Music Awards, along with many other MC gigs. ​ Currently Shanelle writes and presents a podcast called Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare with Tamara Linke, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants. As they discuss topics like incontinence, mumneisia and toddler tantrums, all in a fun and judgment free environment. ​ Connect with Shanelle on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shanellefranklin_/?hl=en ​ Listen to Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare ​ Find out more about Catherine House Adelaide Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Chanel Franklin. Chanel is a presenter, producer podcaster voice over artist MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and is a mum of two Chanel has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade, with brands such as Channel Nine SCFM, fresh 97 foxtail, music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on fresh nine to seven where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. Chanel has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room. And she produced directed and presented her own TV show jam Live, which aired on Channel Nine, Adelaide, and nine now. She now has conducted the red carpet interviews and emceed for the South Australian music awards, along with many other emcee gigs. Currently Chanel writes and presents a podcast called motherhood a beautiful nightmare, with Tamara link, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants as they discuss topics like incontinence, Mum, nasia, and toddler tantrums all in a fun and judgment free environment. So I came first came across you through the South Australian music awards, doing your hosting and the red carpet interviews and interviews with the winners. So you've done presenting producing voiceover work emceeing podcasting that you first got your start in community radio, which I thought was really cool, because community radio, I don't think gets enough credit. No, it doesn't. Yeah, so tell me how that sort of started and, and what made you It's again, one of those things really were community radio and the same with 3d. It gives you this my my start was fresh 97. But 3d is exactly the same radio Adelaide as well. Where you have the opportunity to learn on the job, you make mistakes, you learn from them, that's, that's the key thing. So I used to be an event coordinator before that, and events are great, but they just they they age you before your time, you have the unbelief. You look like you've been dragged through a bush backwards when you finish one of them. As much as I love it, I'm not it's not it's not in, it's not in my soul. And I think until you acknowledge something that's in your soul, and truly what your inner being is telling you that this is your purpose, you'll be met with constant things of trying to guide you in that direction. So the event coordinating was definitely not for me, but it certainly is for so many people that are excellent at it. So I remember having this moment and saying to my husband, I'm miserable. And he said quit. We will just live simply. And we did and I think sometimes the more money you've got the the more you spend I know it's very difficult to just quit your job and whatever. But we ended up living quite simply. And not lavish too in order to still keep our heads above water. We weren't going to get ahead because we were spending some of our savings but savings at what cost you know you need to be happy. Yeah, absolutely threw myself into fresh I gave it my my all and I then decided, Well if no one's going to do it for me. I've got to do it myself. So I ended up grabbing the audio breaks off of the off of the track system that got there and put a reel together and sent it to the highest person in radio Eric who happened to live in Adelaide at the time. His name's Craig Bruce. But he was like the boss of Kyle and Jackie O at the time when they're on today FM. But he loves Adelaide, and this is his home. So I thought, What's What am I going to lose? He's not going to reply. I'll give it a go. And email you can kind of hide behind you a week. Yeah, absolutely. So it was easy to kind of do it that way rather than face to face. And he wrote back and said, you sound great. Come in for a chat. So I did that. And I got on air two weeks later. And now I get up plenty of times. I remember the studio door flying over from one of the content assistants saying what was that air brake and I'm like, I was trying to put a call to air and I press the wrong button and I fired that sweeper off and I didn't really oh my god, like it was just it was stressful. And I was like, Okay, I've just got to give this a go. And then I had an opportunity to move to Hobart to be their afternoons announcer. And I was I really love Adelaide. I don't want to move at this point where I'm thinking about having children soon. Maybe I am not going to do it. So I said to them, I won't go and that was like well if you don't take this opportunity, someone else is going to take it up. So they literally said we've got no more work here in Adelaide. And there was some on my bum is what I felt like and it was a low points I thought I've worked so hard to get here and now it just stopped maybe I should have taken it but I had to consider dance job as well. So it was a tricky time. And then I got picked up by a woman that was producing a music TV show called Music Room. It was airing on Foxtel all around the country. It was low budget, but again a great experience. And she said I'm looking for a female presenter. I thought Great. Okay, audition for that got it with another guy. He was the CO presenter and we did three seasons learn an incredible amount. We filmed it here in Adelaide. And it was a music show that was just for rock and heavy artists. And I know where she was coming from she was trying to create a show because the rock and heavy artist didn't weren't getting enough air time maybe on Triple J or things like that. But then I'm thinking we'll need this the folk Carter's and neither is this and neither is that yeah, there's a lot of genres that miss out so that that for me, I was like something's missing here. So after that, I got a job opportunity to run rip it up magazine. But it was at the time where they just folded the magazine and made it online. So upset a lot of people so I'm like great I'm going to be the scapegoat for everyone being devastated when I wanted the print to stay as well but it was a question of money and who was funding it really. So they so they did that and I thought as much as I love music it's that's not what I want to do. That's not my passion or really want to do the presenting side of it. So I thought okay stuff so I'm going to have a baby this is my quick way out of out of river. And that was that was in my mind. So I was lucky enough to get pregnant quickly with summer I had summer. And then I thought what do I really want to do? Because they just made me redundant when I literally was like I have to go back there. I want to go back so I love music but it's not really what I'm passionate it was that inner being going it's not for you. It's not for you, but I'm kind of ignoring it because it was a safe job and money. I remember sitting on the couch breastfeeding and I got the phone call and they said we're making you redundant we're shutting the whole thing down. And I went right okay, that's a good thing. Maybe it is alright Clean Slate What do I want to do? Maybe I can write a TV show who who bloody nose I literally just decided that I was going to back myself which is hard to do. Because the little person on your shoulder one side Jiminy Cricket as a supporter and then this person here is a pain in the ass who says well you're not a producer you can't do this you didn't you haven't gone to film school you you know, all this self doubt. Yeah. Which can be incredibly damaging anyway because often we listen to the negative stuff more And we talk to ourselves I believe far more than what we actually speak out, huh? Yeah. You know, and and I thought, I'm just gonna do it. Okay. So I wrote wrote a show up. And it was going to be a music TV show that was inclusive of all artists. It was celebrating artists that were traveling through South Australia and playing live music venues. So it's hearing them, but also hearing a local artist every single week. From a variety of different genres. I made sure there was heavy in there, there was folk there was pot, there was soul, punk, electro electronics, I wanted to cover as much as I could. So I presented it to the to Channel Nine Adelaide, and they picked it up, but to say they picked it up, that was a year of back and forth and back and forth. And I literally I felt like I was almost due for a nervous breakdown because I signed up these sponsors to invest in this show. And because you need to pay creatives to work on it, I was 100% going to be that person that was paying people for their work, the film guy, the editor, graphic design, work, all that sort of stuff. And then from there, it literally I had sponsors it invested I had a letter from nine saying we're going to air it but they also could have gone the minute they seen it. Now we're not liable for anything. They said he puts up to our standard we'll air it. So people invested in the show. I spent that money and paid the creatives then sat in the wings and went please add this because if you just put this in the bin, I'm up ship creek without a paddle, but it was just the most terrifyingly living on the edge but so much so that of course so much anxiety. During this old time, I decided it was a wonderful idea to get pregnant with my son what plan Oh, I've got no idea. Shit. Wow. So you've got the you got the 18 month old some are running around little girl, SAS pot, and then so much morning sickness and literally crawling around on the floor trying to appease this programmer at Channel Nine and pretend everything's rosy and you know what? Pregnancy I can do this I like the phone I'm like, oh, like really good. Oh, it was this facade and that I was putting the mask on the whole time. And Lisa Bishop from the external manager from music essays said to me because they jumped on board and they were supportive and she said it's alright you know I've got kids too it's it's hard loving and unloved is really hard like Why have I done a TV show when I'm pregnant and got a baby and I just Oh my god and she wasn't a child carry that so you know you you go to the point where I remember I was on the phone to a Sony record label getting approval to have an artist on and I'd left it for a second because she was carrying on so I thought I'll just go down the hallway to have this cool conversation on the phone with the Sony rep. Having a great time I've walked past she got into the friggin manuka honey. And I took one look and I went I can't do anything about that because I've got this into something cool last yes given her yay. Three jobs she's ever no not my kids got the honey all over the floorboards and they're all floorboards so there's cracks in them on like that's going to be ants for about 100 years Yeah. Oh my gosh. These moments where I've gone oh my gosh, just that's too much. And so we finally we finally got it on so that was that was great. Yeah. And I literally when it was on TV I was hanging my head because our in some of the TV Go Mommy There you are. Like, yeah, let me but I'm hanging on a thread because I was 37 weeks pregnant. And it got on and it was received really well. And it was it was great. And I then was it was due to watch the last episode air on TV and I went into labor Oh well he was only was 37 minute labor so that was trying to get out of me no time for anything except survival is what I was feeling at the time. Yeah, it was just so anyway had him he came out not breathing. So then there's that moment of when we're nothing else matters but but life because it was just a bit quick for him. And then suddenly I had this moment and every TV went down in the hospital. And I thought, well, that's a bit ironic because I think the universe is telling me to just stop and be in this moment with my child. And don't worry about the TV because it was going to end no matter what don't do an Instagram post don't do a Facebook post, just leave it and be with your child who who that was that moment I would never forget because he finally started breathing. You know, so thankful and and then that moment of realization and my husband took a photo of me and it's the most raw photo I've got, I've got no makeup. I'm not an absolute mess. And he's just putting put on my chest and got feta cheese all over his face. And I just held him in like cried and I was like, Oh my gosh, that was just all the tears of everything. Yeah, that I was trying to be the best version of myself and honor my career so to speak and be your mum to summer and be a new mum to Ali and live in this moment and then, a week after the show, after after, I'd had Ali boobs out of control milk everywhere, not sleeping. Great. You know, as women do your bleeding a lot after you've had a baby. And the Channel Nine people say all the one guy said can you have a meeting? I mean, like Sure, sure. Sure. Well, I'll just make it happen. So suck got set summer up with a endless snacks in the back car seat. Dan was still off from work. He pulled into a loading zone, Ollie feed him one one boob was bigger than the other committed to one move. You and he was reflexes so constantly through that threw up so put him in the in the car seat. Dan was idling in the car because you know, they're like the hum of the car. Just you know, release all those emissions anyway, thanks. And then I walked in, and I sat there and had this meeting with this big rig at Channel Nine. And they said we're not going to renew it for a second season. You did great. We did awesome. But music TV is just not where we're going. People were viewing music TV very differently. It's all very online. They don't sit and watch TV like they did count. And this was a very different show to count down. It wasn't on a set it was we were in the venue's filming. And it was it was great. But he was like people aren't watching live TV like that anymore. And I actually in the one season got the same amount of viewers that the loop got on channel 10. So which had a crapload more money behind it. So I was really stoked with that. And one and the second to last week, we actually I beat the football ratings. Oh, we can't get that Kenya. I was sorry. I was like, right. So they put me on at 430 on a Saturday afternoon, which is a tricky time. And you only get the ratings of people that are physically sat there at that point. You don't get the people that catch up. And let's be honest, most of us catch up on TV. Most of us don't just sit where the TV tells us that something's on we work around what we're doing. So that was a kind of a moment. I remember walking out one big big and the other side was lopsided. And thinking to myself, Okay, this is just the different I don't know what's happening and I remember feeling excited for the future. But then two weeks later felt really low. You know, where the where you've had no sleep, and you just exhausted and I thought and now I appreciate the time I had to just be still but as a creative. It's a really restless feeling. We don't I don't think we do very well when we're told to stop. If we stop ourselves, it's fine. But if we're told to stop, and we're halted and press pause, and we can't do our art form, it feels really Yeah, it's not it's not nice feelings. It's you get filled with anxieties, frustration, quit your question, everything question everything is what have I done enough that should have taken that phone call or should have done this should have done that to push yourself more. So I did a stood still for a while. And I then a year later wrote a podcast, because podcasts. In America 80% of people listen to podcasts. But in Australia, it's about 35 to 40%. But the rate here is growing faster than it did in America. So Aussies are really getting this trajectory, because I think podcasts are the medium where it gives the listener respect, because they've actually chosen to tune into unlike radio, again, like commercial TV where it just feeds out you when you've got the car on or you're told to listen to a song or you're told, here's an ad break, or the weather break, the podcast is completely the business choice, whatever they decide to listen to, whether it's crime, whether it's your podcast, whether it's something to make them laugh, it's an active thing. And it is almost a bit of therapy, because they're escaping whatever, they're escaping for a bit and having some downtime, whatever it is, so it is so they're really powerful. When you get into them, and they can be addictive, because you go What else can I listen to and learn? It's great. Yeah. So So yeah, so that was I wrote a podcast idea. And I wrote it with a friend of mine, who is a football star. And she got picked up to do the mix Breakfast Show, and could no longer do the podcast with me. So I wrote this idea. And then it went down the Pope. I remember having a chat with her. And she's like, I'm so sorry. And when it's your friend you like don't make you you chase what's happening for you, you go like back to 100%. And I truly still mean that to this day, I was just sad for myself, that I fell on my bum again. And I remember handing the children a packet of tiny TEDx whether it was the dinner time or not, I didn't care I handed the major packet of tiny Teddy's and just said just watch the Sun TV for a minute. And I went in the pantry and had the ugliest cry. Loud real, like God again. And the end, my face was all fat and bloody puffed. And it was just I it was the release that again, I needed. But I then had this moment where I just needed to fall apart, not in front of them because they'll come over and go What's wrong mommy and white, you're iron and you crying more? starve yourself. And then you look at them. And they're so cute sat there in their Teddy's watching boy, then you cry again. Yes, you have another second wave coming. So you're in the shower, and you do that again, whatever. And then you finally get this thing where you've completely dehydrated. And you pick yourself up. And I literally was in the shower. I love a good thinking session in the shower. And I thought what podcasts do I really want to write, I want to write something that is and I always thought I would never do a career to do with my kids or motherhood. Always thought I'd be different to that. And somehow it's led me to that. So I wrote this podcast that I wanted to share a bit for the mother who's or the dad but mostly the mums flying by the seat of their pants. And for someone that just needs to listen to it and go you know what? I'm going through the same stuff. And it's hard but together we're stronger because that village doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, it really doesn't and so many feel so isolated and almost don't realize how isolated we are. Until we hear something that someone else does that's the same and we go yes my kid does that to drives me crazy or or the incessant shouting in them with a drill sergeant in the morning to get ready for school we you know, we all kind of do it or issues with the pelvic floor where we worry about doing lloween and knickers or something. All these? Yeah, yeah. So we are actually more alike than we think we are. So I wrote this podcast and I pitched it to a girl that I started off working at fresh with she was volunteering to but when she got picked up by Nova that was when I got picked up by sa femme and then we both didn't work for them anymore. I'm and I said to her, Do you want to start for coffee? And it's one of these things that I am so glad I did we sometimes second guests should I should or not? Should I ask that person for coffee? Should I make that call? Should I send that text or email? Yes. For again? Yes. Because what have you got to lose? Yeah, absolutely say no. Well, okay, it seems a bit but you the worst is the regret or not knowing that's when you feel your crappiest. And it might not be now it's often later that it rears its ugly head. So I just sent her a text and said, Do you want to go for a coffee? And she went, Hey, lady haven't seen you know, just as short. I sent my shout let me you know, halfway. So we did that. And we I pitched it to her. And she went, Ah, yeah, sounds good. I've actually got my studio. She's a voiceover artist. So she's got a little studio that she's, she's made about her husband's warehouse. And it was perfect, because you don't need to pay for studio space. So we threw ourselves into that. And then it all kind of started falling together. Apple did a feature on us early on. And then we teamed up with Katherine house and raised just over $5,000 for their helping a system, we created this chemical to help a sister out. Because again, we wanted to be this kind of help. When you went out one of our fellow sisters needs us we stand up whether whether we're a mother or not, you know, it might be if you're in a position of power to help in a position of power means do have a house and a job, or you know, something like that. So we're all most of us and the majority of us are in that position of power, who might not have a lot we might have been loaded, but we can spare 10 bucks. So we can give up one coffee. Yeah, to donate. So that was the behind that. So we did well there and then it started to creep creep up a bit. And then Apple did a big feature on us only last week. So I remember checking the dashboard of our listeners and it shot up and I went a week prior they needed so they sent us an email, sent us an email and said, Can you submit your artwork a different way? And I've just done it in Canva because it was an easy option. And they said oh, we need it in Photoshop. Fine. I'm gone. Again. I'm not a graphic designer. So I run an old friend and said, I need your help. Please. Can you help me if I send you the elements? Can you just put it in? He said sure. That's fine. He's a muse. Oh, yeah. And he's a bit he's a brilliant graphic designer. He said, Sure, send it over, it's fine. So they sent it back and then they featured us and then since then, we've started to do well with it. But the idea is just to give mums that point to have a laugh and a break and see that their journey is much the same as the rest of us. Yeah, it's almost like it's like a validation that you're not alone. You're like I mean some of these there's the episode titles I've just got to read them out because they're so good. It's a bunch of don't wait your pants which is hair I can relate to that one my you know my amnesia when you're the baby sucks your brain out and you can't think of anything ever yeah x let's talk let's talk six which is good and chic man which I really like this shit well yeah, it's like it is where you're honest it's yeah, it's it's we do get that title of being you know I remember being so caught up with it a few things and work related or pressures you put on yourself that's probably more what it is. And then someone was just not listening. Far out kids like listen, listen to us. Not listening. Actively not listening. I've had their hearing has both been checked. They exceptional here is hearing me banging on about nothing. And I lost my lost my shit. And then you feel so I was like, wow, and then ship on ship on ship on ship. And that's what you do because you go I didn't mean to but actually was your fault that I know, you don't tell them that you just You're so wound up sometimes it is like a rubber band that just goes snap when you're in that moment. Since doing the TV show music, they got me on board to do their red carpet and backstage interviews, which I loved because it was chatting to all the artists and the winners and people coming in. And that was all good fun. But since doing that one of the people that one is nameless for Hansa, and he won the Best International collaboration award last year. And someone asked him, Do you know anyone that can see? And this was at just the last few seminars and he said, Oh, yeah, Chanel, Chanel can MC had an MC the thing in my life, but and I again, there's that short shot of doing that. Figure it out later. Then I had this meeting. And it was to be the it was at the convention center to be an MC for it was the Iftar dinner, which is a Muslim Ramadan thing. So how am I going to say these words, but anyway, I practice, practice, practice, did the MC gig and I felt that I came alive in myself. I was like, I love doing this. This is great. Like I really I just I felt validated, I felt like because always, I loved music so much, but I couldn't seem couldn't play an instrument. And I always thought the presenting side was my connection to it. But now the emcee work to I felt that that was where I could bring something that is inside me rather than something that isn't like playing an instrument or whatever I will sit there and have a vino and just play all the different tunes and just love it so I'll do it on my own don't even need anyone there. So I've got such a passion for it, but I can't bring a skill set to it. Apart from the the art of the communicating and the chatting. Yeah, so once that finished I then got brought on by Flinders uni to do their bands, the MC and book their artists COVID came with everything. Thank you COVID And I was I was cursing COVID for them because it was it was squashing me I was like I've just got this opportunity. And now it's going down the beam going in the bin. And then from there a few other big events like there was a big cheer competition and a few other big things that were coming out of the entertainment center. They needed an MC a school mom put me forward she goes I think Chanel does stuff like that done at once. But who worked it out later. Yeah, I put myself forward for that. It went really well. And then I started then Live Nation contacted music essay and said we need someone to do our ones to watch launch. Who can you recommend? They put me forward. And then suddenly, it all started just the universe seem to be working in my favor for what it seemed like for once. And I said to a girlfriend of mine who did a Reiki session on me because Reiki is fantastic. And she said, Have you ever I said I'm just sick of my career being stopped start stop, start, stop start. And she said think of it as stepping stones. Not stop start one lily pad to the next rather than hold stop progression. And I think when I started thinking of it like that, I actually changed my mindset and felt a million times better. And then music essay said we can't fly over the Triple J presented Can you do it? Sure. Yeah. And then that was that and then I had I just I felt like I was living my true self being out there and I truly loved being a part of the being next to the artists that were winning being amongst the finalists, hearing the cheese being amongst the performers, the Aboriginal opening ceremony like the smoking ceremony. Yeah, that just makes you come alive. I felt really connected to it and truly grateful. So that's that's been me. That's been my my journey of motherhood career a juggle. Yeah, and I've learned as I've failed, pretty much that's been the sense of it. Day Yeah, yeah, there is hearing hearing you express all of that. There's so many common themes about, you know, you can, you can feel that little bit of the self doubt. But you've got to do it anyway. Because you're so you're very open. Like you say to the universe, which is awesome, because I'm the same and a lot of our listeners are so that is so cool. Then you mentioned the Reiki, it's like, you're willing to let go of it and say, right, Oh, am I meant to be doing this? What am I meant to be doing and allow yourself to be guided in that way? There's absolutely no hesitation in that. And that's when you know, I think when you're living the true version of yourself, when your inner being and your physical self match up, it is pure harmony. And it is it is felt you really do feel it. I read a quote in a book once that said, I lied to myself, but my heart never believes me. Yeah, so hard for me. It's basically you can tell yourself, I need to be in this lawyer job, or I need to be working for a good ship boss, but he does pay me well, or whatever, you know, to do all this sort of stuff. But really, you know, you actually know and whether or not you're going, you know, but what I really want to do doesn't bring a lot of money. Find a way to turn that into a business because my husband what he does for work, he loves his golf is obsessed with his golf, and he's obsessed with Liverpool Football Club and Port Adelaide and all that sort of stuff. That's his thing. That's his passion. Some people have a passion and have a job. And they're happy to swap the hats when needed to be and then he's got his dad hat, husband hat friend hat. That makes him happy. Because his dream was to be a professional soccer player. He's 41. So he's an bus with a busted knee. So he's like, Okay, well, I can still do the other things and live and enjoy that. When I've got my job. Me I need to my job needs to fill my soul. I'm a Pisces, I feel things real deep. And I need it to, to I can't just I don't want to switch those hats. I want them to to be in as one. But one thing I did find really important was that I had an outlet away from my kids away from my husband away from my work. Yep. Which is my presenting MC work. I needed something completely different. And I found kickboxing. So it's bloody great. Anyway. Great time. So I go there twice a week. And this is a pressure report. And so so the kids come home from school. Yep, I'm like, right, throw him in a shower, and or a bath, use your shower, because a bath means that the it's reminiscent of a raining rainforest in there after they've left. It's like a slip and slide for me. I got to tell them often I slip. Oh, good driving up. So I put them in a shower quickly. Because the those nights I need them to be doing what they're told. And then I get them dinner. And then when dad comes home, all he has to do is do readers with summer read only a book and put them to bed and have a little play. So then I'm not at the minute he's coming home shoving it all on him. And then it's he's like, I'm struggling with this. So I feel like I've ticked those boxes. Now I can do it. This is what we do. We try and get it all organized. And then I'd go there for one hour, no phone. No, I'm uncontactable for one hour of that day, and I just do my thing. And it feels good to just give it a feel that I come home and I'm in that even though they're in bed some of some time still shouting, using every excuse under the sun is why she doesn't need to go to school tomorrow. Half anyway. Oh my god. She's a teacher. And then there's money. I I love you. I love you too. Please go to sleep. So I've come in, but I'm in the best mood because I've had that release. Yeah, that's somebody who's been really powerful because if works been frustrating or tricky, and the kids you know, be it's been, it's been a day, let's just say that's my way of just forgetting about everything and having a reset whether someone chooses to meditate. Another I read in a book recently about meditating and you can literally set your phone for 10 minutes, set the alarm for 10 minutes, put it on flight mode, and just be at peace and know that you're not going to over you're not going to go into this deep state where you are going to not forget to pick up your kids from school or sorry gonna forget to pick them up. You can just have 10 minutes to yourself and that's powerful too. We need that reset away from the whole thing. Oh yeah. That Is this something that every mother that I speak to on this is exactly the same thing. And that's thing, it doesn't have to be some great big thing. It doesn't have to be that you go out, you know, for hours and do some crappy thing. It's the hour at the kickboxing or the 10 Minute Meditation, as long as it's something I think is consistent. And that you can say, Yes, I'm going to do this, it's important enough to you. And yeah, like, make, make it so it's easy for the people that you're leaving at home, you know, like what you've done, you've you've got it all prepared. And then you're like, right, I don't have to worry about anything, because I know that everything's sorted. So it's Yeah, I think it's just so important is just that the most important thing really, is because I'm a better mother and a better wife. And then absolutely say, and I think when you live with a creative when you're not, I mean, everyone's creative in their own way. But when they don't do it for a living, when they've got more of a job, that kind of makes sense, or maybe a little bit more serious in like, let's say a banking field or a law field, as opposed to being a musician or another type of creative credits can be up and down a lot. And it doesn't mean that they're manic depressant or anything like that. And some of them are, and that's absolutely fine. But that doesn't mean you need to label them. It's just it's just, they're in their head a lot. And they have moments of feeling wonderful about things. And then sometimes they're just feeling like they're plateauing a bit. And I think that that can be tricky, too. So doing that kickboxing for me, is the best way that I go and reset, you know, you could be getting, you could have got an email that just wasn't wasn't the email you're hoping to get. And then you wear that on your shoulders all day real heavy. And then the kids are at you, for whatever reason the dog has put on the lawn and you've stepped in it all the just it does. It's got it's one of these things, it's never usually one thing, usually piles of things that we don't realize are accumulating until someone puts that last little bit and then it all goes bowl. And then we wonder why we're feeling so exhausted, tired, overwhelmed. It's the stuff we didn't realize was piling up before. Yeah. Yeah, then if you can, if you can knock down that pile, just like you know, by doing these things for yourself, just not allowing it to just keep keep going and going going. Exactly. That's really good advice, yeah Absolutely. Because mental health is something that I mean, I've got my own background with mental health and a lot of people I speak to have, but I feel like it's still not something that we're really great. I mean, we're good at talking about it. But the people listening to us perhaps aren't that great at listening and accepting and going oh, yeah, that's actually normal. Yeah, it's I'm finding in this in this podcast that people are being so honest, it's actually that same thing of like, people realizing with with your podcasts with the mums, we all have these things that go crazy. And we all have the same experiences and we've mental health to it's like it's actually normal. It's actually part of life. Yeah, you know, and we throw kids in the mix too. There's a whole lot of different levels of hormones and things going on that again, it's that hat moment where you're like I don't have a minute to cry and then a banks up for the next time. So you're wondering why you crying harder the second time because it wasn't the right moment for the kids needed. You're at that point. So you kind of just pushed it to the back of your mind, but I think mental health Is, is such an umbrella term. And I think every mother at some point, several times will go through their spurts of it, whether it be good, especially because you're still trying to live that version of yourself, be there for everybody else, it is really tricky. And a lot of mine was down to my work being frustrated me and just giving me what I what I did see was roadblocks. But now I kind of look at it as a stepping stones while I was trying to be a mother. So I'm having these moments of self doubt constantly, until I finally started to put the pieces of the puzzle still coming together. And when I had that Reiki session, my friend pulled a card for me and said, keep the faith. And literally weeks later was when that second MC gig came. Yeah. And then I started getting all started getting really great feedback, which was incredibly humbling, but also nice for me to feel that what path I thought I was on is right. And I am I in a different spot to what I was, when I did the TV show, yes, but so much happier, like doing the podcasts. And during my MC work. I am so much happier than what I was on on SFM. And during the TV show. Something still wasn't right. But I felt I needed to learn. I learned so much. And I'm so grateful for those experiences. But I feel like my career's evolved, and I'm happier for it. Because where it looks now is not where I thought it would look back then. But I'm ungrateful because it was obviously the universe's plan to say, we needed to stop that season of jam live, but only one to give you one for the experience. And then you're moving on to the next journey of what that's going to be. Yeah, at that moment in time. I felt really low and really bloody sad. And I'm like, is it the breastfeeding? Is it the fact that my son has reflux? And I can't put him down? Is it the fact I've got an 18 month old who's very attached to me, mommy, mommy, mommy, or what? I didn't know why I was crying, I was just crying. But then you get to the point where you know, you give yourself more credit than probably what we've been given in the past or that we give ourselves. You take a look into the things that you have done. And you give yourself that validation that you deserve. Because there's no better thing to do than to back yourself. That's the thing everyone else validating. Yes, yes. You've got to back first. Yeah. And that's the thing to you. It's sort of reminding me of when you said right at the beginning, how you, you were doing your announcing on the radio, and you thought I'm gonna make up this little show reel of all my little grabs of stuff and just go for it, you know, like, no one's gonna mean, it will I say no one, but some people this happens, but no one's literally going to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, I want you to come and do this. Like, you actually have to be our way to go. Yeah, I was waiting for it that whole time for someone to tap me on the shoulder and say, Chanel, we're gonna plunk you here, or do this, and it didn't happen. And I that's when I was like, well, the again the age old saying that if you want something done, do it yourself. And that if you have an opportunity, you need to you need to just you need to do it if it's innate in you and your inner being is telling you this is what your purpose is. Get up, send that email, do that thing that you need to do to start that progression and Rome was not built in a day. So it won't happen overnight. You will get roadblocks but if it was easy, everyone would do it. One more saying which is my absolute favorite Oprah when you know when when you know better you do better. That's that sense of me now being so much more proud of what I've achieved as a sense of where I was on the radio and on telly going. I still didn't feel as grand as I thought it would feel I'm here now I'm doing it. I'm on SFM I'm on channel nine. This is great. And I'm like I'm still I didn't know whether I didn't have a chance to enjoy it because I was pregnant. Or I don't know or I was trying On a high debt with baggy tops who does that? Just wear your belly wet be proud of that. But I felt shamed a bit because I thought I'm not cool being pregnant on telly at a music festival. I should be home singing Kumbaya with nice tunes that were you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, place I felt really out of place until someone like Lisa Bishop who's a mum herself from from music essay said it's okay. Chanel, you can celebrate what you're doing. Show show your bumper off. And I reckon I hid my pregnancy for a good six months. And I shouldn't have Yeah, you can play play doh. Yeah. Yeah, so I shouldn't have, I really should have allowed myself to celebrate that. Yeah, again, the girls that were on TV for music were not pregnant. And they were just a bit younger than me as well. They seemed cooler. So that was what I was trying to emulate when really I wasn't being true to myself. And the better way was to just be me. Knowing this now. So when you know better you do? How's that played? Out? Right now? Oh, that's not the bag and go happy? Want to ask you. This sort of ties into was saying earlier about what we learned from our mothers and they learned from their mothers? Is it important for you, for your children to see you in your own identity as Chanel? Yeah. 100%. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel. Some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall. He's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself. What am I going to ask that? Because I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age and kicking myself for not trying at least so and he said, the kids, you're an amazing man, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Yeah. Because you can work in a cafe. Absolutely. If that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing because they're learning from me. Don't just stand still because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. So I said to him, I need them to be proud of, of what I've achieved that I was true to myself. And as I'm getting getting older and talking to different people, people's truths are different. So someone might want to be a doctor, someone might want to own their own cafe or health food store, work in childcare work in the music industry. It's also different to what makes you marched and beat of your own drum. Yeah, but is that was one of my main drivers was that my children were able to be not proud of me, but just see, because I think that when you do what's innate in you, there's a glow about you. Yeah. And I can feel that energy in that sense. And I want them to do the exact same thing with you. If my son's obsessed with Ben trucks, stinky Finn trucks. Drive a big truck for the rest of your life, mate. You ready? Go for it? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Happy. That's what that's the thing you know, like I can imagine both of them running away from the microphone. They're just not like me in that sense. Yeah. But whatever it is, it's in your soul you do it and and back yourself first and then others will back you two pages How do you feel about followers of your social media or colleagues, knowing that you do have children, you sort of happy for them to be aware of that. I often feel that it's gives a sense of who you are really, as a person when you because we, yeah, I spent time hiding them away. And not from the media spotlight, but from the fact that I was trying to have it all together and my kids, you know, you need to just thought now I just need to bring them along with the journey. And I've brought all the team meetings before and he's watched trucks and on my phone who not great, but it needed to happen. Yeah. And then you move something spilled his snacks all over the floor. And it's really embarrassing. And I was trying to scrape by he cuz yeah, that's the thing. We just need to don't worry about it, bring them with us get stuff done, because what we're doing multitasking is brilliant. And it has not been done before. Yeah, absolutely. It's like we're paving the way for the future, paving the way for fellow sisters that will come come up the ranks and need us to set the platform. Because half the time we haven't had the chance to learn off of a lot of people. Oh, yeah, it's literally like flying by the seat of your pants is a great explanation for it. Because you're you're like, is this gonna work done? I haven't done this before. Gonna give it a try. What's gonna happen? You know, you're just feeling your way as you go. Yeah, I think it's contagious because other women then in a similar position might go you know what, I'm gonna do that, because I needed that reassuring kick up the bum to do what's right for me, you know? Talking about mom guilt, oh, I had this moment recently where I was, uh, my little one kept asking me to record him doing some tricks on the trampoline. And I went out there and I was so ready to record him. And he's doing his tricks. And I realized I hadn't hit record. Because I ma are in storage is full. And you've taken too many pictures of the kids. And there's deleting them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a great topic. That one, isn't it? Isn't it? Oh, and you go through and you're like, actually take none of myself. And not that we could walk around taking selfies, but would be nice to have some, you know, inclusion on your phone. Because they're all of the kids doing their little moments of grandeur, aren't they? Oh, yeah. We're always behind the camera. We're never in front of it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's like a whole topic. That one is pretty well. I think this is innate in us, even though and this is probably applicable to a lot of women that you deal with being mothers in the arts industry. In the media industry. We're used to being on the front of things because of our art form, whether it is emceeing speaking, presenting, playing an instrument singing anything like that mentoring, when you get your children you're on the back because you push them forward to shine in whatever they're doing whether it's so summer's teacher, my five year old she's asked her to read a little sentence at the liturgy on Friday so I've literally move mountains to go and see this one sentence. I'm making a practice practice Indian getting right what one thought he said to carrying on and anyway I was because of COVID you can have that many people there. So it's just you know, a small amount so I was literally moving heaven and earth to make sure I got a spot at this liturgy so I can wave and record the whole thing on my phone. Yeah, and maybe watch it back after I've had a few videos. isn't having to. Yeah. And then so that's the thing we push them to the front of they're the kind of shines in our life. But when you put your work hat on, you are the opposite of that you're the woman that's either you know, you're playing your instrument, or you're talking on the microphone, or whatever it is. Yeah. So it's funny how we kind of wear many hats. Absolutely, and are able to just like, swap them in, in a millisecond, like it's even milli second, there's no hat stand is no time for the hat stand. Instantly, and then your friend needs your help. So you're instantly there for her or him, whatever, whatever. Whoever is needing you at that point. And then you're back on the Mon bandwagon because you've realized it's 530. And you've not sorted dinner. So then, you know, all the time. Yeah, it's so true. It's incredible. I saw a image main things on Instagram yesterday, and it was of a mom, that was, you know, how you have those plates, spinners, and you've got to keep the plates going. And it was like all the different elements of what moms and I noticed that whoever wrote it hadn't put your own. When I looked at, I think, when you're supposed to do your own thing, like your music or your you know, it was like that wasn't even on there. It was like, Oh, my God, like add that in as well. And it was just well, and that's where I think if you don't add that in, you run into trouble later on. It's a difficult task to put it in. It's, it's something we've got to be really conscious of, and really mindful of, but I think if we don't have that element of putting ourselves not before our kids, but making ourselves a priority to Yeah, or something else. You know, it's, it's really, it's, yeah, it's so important. Because then you go through something where you later on your kids don't need you as much anymore. You always need your money, but as much and then you're trying to fill that void with other things where you and then there's that regret where you missed out on doing that for yourself. And I think we're better at doing that now. I think our mom's generation, our grandmothers, I think learned the hard way. Yeah. And then some of them now at age 50, and 60 are living their best version of themselves, because they've realized they've got that freedom. Where is that? When given that, that grace or that exception? Years years ago? Because you were told to just follow what your mom did? You did what her mom? Do they do what her mom did? Yeah, you know, so now we're kind of having this awakening where we're celebrated for having children and doing this as well, because it's not just that we're able to multitask, but we're able to show that the talents that we do have in a certain area. Yeah. And it's like, I've always struggled with this, this identity thing that deep down, like, you're still the same person that you were, act, like you just happen to have a child. It's like, why should all that, you know, goodness and potential and you know, the stuff you give to the world? Why should that just go? Not finished, your mum now, doesn't matter. Yeah. And the thing is, we work so hard in our careers in our early years, you know, especially in the arts, a lot of that is volunteer work based to get base there to get your skill set up to get your name out there to get runs on the board as far as experience, because nine times out of 10 There's no better way of learning something than just doing it. You know, you study at university, and that's all great, but having actual tangible experience doing something, or you know, playing an instrument, the best way to play an instrument is to do it. Public speaking, emcee work, it's all of that. So it's, it's really, it was really something that I think once you start to get that in in a row, and really start to get some runs on the board for yourself, then you get to the point where you're clock's ticking. And you feel like you're literally two versions of yourself because you're like, I want to have children. I've got that yearning, but I'm just starting to get somewhere. And it's like, and then you finished your apple. Oh can I have the chocolate chip biscuit? I promised him a chocolate chip biscuit if he sat quietly. Oh my gosh, that was the best timing. That was amazing. 73 So sorry, no, no, no, you're fine. Honestly, it's this is being a man. Exactly. Yeah, just just say you get that moment of where you start getting some traction in your career, and then something else innate in you comes a knockin, and then that knot gets louder and louder and louder and you can't ignore it but you're torn between doing what you want. to do and what what is what your body wants you to do. And there's no shame in whether you have children or not. But if there's a desire in you, it's very, very difficult to turn that switch off possible. So when you said before, like you just said, you're choosing between what you want to do, it's literally and what you want to do, like you want to do both things. But how you actually do both things. Like it's just this constant, like the juggling out, it's just yeah. And it was interesting. You said earlier, you're doing you do what you want to do. It's not at the expense of your children. You're not saying you're not putting yourself first that's what it was. It's not like you're choosing put yourself first, but you're choosing to acknowledge that part of your life has been worth and it's important that you are going to choose to do that. Yeah, it's not at the expense of everyone, anyone else. You know what I mean? You know, I think a lot of that stigma years ago, where they would have assumed that you are just selfish, and putting yourself first couldn't be any more further from that. Because the love that a mother has for her child is something that science can't explain, the best poet can explain in words, it's felt so deeply, rather than and it can be described as best possible but it's it's so deeply felt that's where so many mothers have turned around to each other and go now, you know, that feeling? And they agree, yes, they get it. So it's not possible to for a mother that wants to be there for her children to just go, oh, well, I'm putting myself first it's not that it's acknowledging that you are a priority to and that you deserve to still be who you are. Because often we're having children at an age where we have still sick, we're not having them at 50 years of age 60 Some, some women are but very unlikely. We're mainly doing it between the ages of 25 and 45. Yeah, it's like we're still young to do what we want to do in our careers. change careers. 5060 Yeah. Yeah, whatever it is, where they go, You know what, I never did this. And I'm kicking myself, but I'm doing it now. Great. Yeah, absolutely. Motherhood and work is no mean feat. And it is incredibly challenging. But I think what's more challenging is the not doing and then not owning who you are, and then not giving yourself an opportunity to shine. Like you being a singer, an incredible singer, I might add you you get this opportunity where if you weren't using your voice and writing music, theory has the opportunity to hear you music and in itself has the opportunity is this art form really that that allows people to feel something when they hear you. And most artists are truly themselves when they are either playing that instrument or sing that song. Most often that they're most often that songs. So what if you're not using your talents that have been the universe has given to you? What a waste? You? Yeah, absolutely. Give yourself back yourself. Know that? Yes, it's it's certainly not easy, not easy at all, by any stretch of the imagination. But what I feel is worse is the lighter the not doing the regret because then you can't change it. That's it, isn't it? It's buy time back. So if there's any any kind of kick up the bum, if anyone needs anything is that moment where you said you were at your your old workplace. And you said I just had this moment of realizing that I needed to follow my passion. And the passion just came things just have a funny way of linking up. Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, you just gotta you've got to be, you've got to be open to it. You've got to be like, right, I'm willing to not be in control of this, you know, that little bit of surrender to say, right. Do with me what you will, I guess? And, you know, lately leave me where, where? Where might you know that I'm going to be happy, you know, I'm going to be fulfilled. And yeah, you know what, I also had a conversation with one of my best girlfriends the other day and she said, I'm just feeling lost. I don't want to go back to my old job. But I don't know what I want to do. And I said, the fact that you say that now and she said I'm frustrated because I need to know, I'm getting impatient. I want to know what I want to do. And I said, You got to take your foot off. For starters, take the pressure off yourself and know that if you don't want to go back to your old job, fine, that's something you definitely do know that that's not right. So sit with it for a bit, had these moments of either like meditation or just calmly thinking, I want to I am open to receiving whatever it is that's out there for me. So do some soul searching, don't get frustrated with yourself that you don't know. Just start that those moments of trying to figure it out slowly step by step, because once you've gone one step, two step three step and you've linked up those little lily pads. That's quite a journey. Hmm. And you will get Yep. But there's there needs to be that moment in time where you take the pressure off yourself and not knowing to, which is ahead. So you're so vulnerable, and you're at the whim of whatever. And if you're used to being in control, it's very confronting thing to do. Yeah, especially. And often sometimes we feel that we if things aren't going right in the workspace that we not hide behind our kids, but just throw ourselves into that role more, because we're not ready to make the decision to do a leap in our careers yet. Yeah, because what I would say to that is, that's, that's fine. If you want, if you if you all you want to do is spend all your time with your kids, that's if that's in your soul, and you go for it. But if you're using it as like a bit of a not a hide behind, but a moment to not spend time thinking about what's truly deserving of you, it's only going to fester and get more frustrating and more, you know, pent up. So that's where you go, Okay, well, I am going to spend time with my kids, I'm going to just enjoy them for a minute. But I am also going to take that time to slowly map out my next chapter. Because they will go off to school. And they will, you know, start to be a little bit more independent. When then when you have that time, then that's when maybe you can send other big seeds to things, send those emails or look to do courses, the amount of people that have gone back to do courses, you being one of the mature mature age. The amount of people that have gone back to to study later on because because what they wanted to do has made sense later, it didn't make sense to you to work in childcare. When you were 20 years old, it never entered my mind ever been to the right time. So it was that's where they said you needed to do some other things first, and you were at that prime moment where you could give your maturity you could give your your knowledge. And you could give yourself that that real sense of okay, I'm at a point now where I'm ready to learn because not a lot of us know what we want to do. The minute we finish year 12. Honestly, this is thing I'm not looking forward to my son, my oldest son's in high school is his first year. My youngest son's just 10 seats. So we're highly different ends of things with schooling. But yeah, this thing with Alex, they're saying to him, or what do you want to do start thinking about subjects and it's like, no, stop this. And I keep reminding him, I say to him, remember, I've only been doing this job for nearly nine years, you know, you don't have to decide now, like take that pressure off yourself. Like often it's there's not a lot of, of us that it makes sense. The minute we leave school, and that frustrates us because we go we need to get you know, especially as mothers, we need to get this time in before we have a baby. We need to you know this rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. And that's where I'd kind of come in and remind and say, well, there is time before, during and after. Because people can't get away this day and age just being discriminatory towards mothers and women and pregnant women. It's not allowed. It's a big fat no. And we're deserving of that, that that grace to be given to us. And that that moment of reassurance where we go, You know what, you can do this, because you are more than just who you are to your children, you are still yourself too. And if you combine those two wonderful elements, you live your best version of yourself. Like that was the second best quote. That was brilliant. On that one that is gold. That is on. Oh, please. Thank you. Shinya. That's a beautiful note to end on. Actually. Thank you. That's Oh, my pleasure. To be involved. I was as I said, I was peeling off my fake eyelashes. When your email came through, and I was thrilled to be it so I thought, what better way to start your morning then chat With a like minded sister and have a coffee. No thank you. distraction device that my son moved to biscuits. Oh, I love that. Oh, you had any of your kids come in whilst you've been doing the nasty No, I haven't got to go there even Dan will give me a hug in the kitchen. Yeah, some will be like Stop. Don't Don't don't like it. Yeah. Get your hands off mom. Y'all wanna talk? Wait, okay now from the beginning, motherhood beautiful nightmare. When your child eats something healthy that you make, and they will sit down, and you are literally strutting in the kitchen as if you are Beyonce. You are like Jamie Oliver, you've just served the queen. You know, a palm reader did tell me it looks like you've been treading water your whole life until you're 50. As in the thing you meant to do is not going to happen to you. 50 on my for another lesson that's treading water. I'm like, that's a long time to wait, lady. Yeah, some good legs. I'm gonna we're gonna do in that time. Read a book. First thing I was thinking with my vagina. Like, yeah, isn't it what you know, asking the obstetrician that couple a couple of small sutures, but we're okay. bodies just come away from the top. But it's fine. Have you ever had a push present? I got my son's weird my third ring. My vital Is it better? Yes. Tell us more about your bottle of the eternity ring. As you said Hang on. Do you say eat turd? If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Bianca Morra US photographer + podcaster S2 Ep58 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Bianca Morra, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland Ohio and a mother of 2. Throughout her schooling Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path. Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg and his series Rich and Poor, and it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than a pretty picture, it could be used to convey and tell stories. Feeling inspired, she went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography and Digital Imaging with a minor in Business Art and Design. After Bianca's employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business, She works as a professional photographer capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more, through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take photo, at any time, and for mums to get in the photos too. Bianca has created the Help Me See podcast - where she holds vulnerable, real conversations challenging the cultural norm & empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as an intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favours helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just seeing it. Above all else she believes that photographing your life is a not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now, as we take each photo. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, post natal/partum depression ** I like your work podcast / Monika Crowley's work / Grace Tame Bianca Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. My guest this week is Bianca Mora, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland, Ohio, and Bianca is a mom of two boys. throughout school, Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path, Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg, and particularly his series rich and poor. And it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than just a pretty picture. It could be used to convey and tell stories. She went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida, where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in photography and digital imaging with a minor in business, art and design. After Bianca is employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business. She works as a professional photographer, capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take that photo at any time. And for mums to get in the photos to. Bianca has created the podcast called helped me see where she hosts vulnerable, real conversations, challenging the norms and empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favors helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just saying it. Above all else. She believes that photographing your life is not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now as we take each photo. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around mental health, postnatal depression, and anxiety. Today's episode you'll hear music from my trio called LM Joe. We create ambient and new age music, myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and you can find the links to listen to more in the show notes. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you. Or from the resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be accessed by the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you for coming on, Bianca. It's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Oh, thank you so much, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. I mean, from the second I just read the title of the podcast when I first became aware of it. I was like, Well, I mean, the most perfect thing ever right up my alley. Oh, that's brilliant. So we're about to you in America. I am about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland, Ohio. Right. So where's that in relation to? I don't know. What's a big city that I know New York. Where is it new in realize now it's seven hour drive from New York? Ah, okay. So it's sort of sort of in the ballpark. there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So what's it like over there at the minute is you're coming in to use spring it was summer, spring now. It's definitely getting warm that I feel like we skipped spring and headed straight to summer for some reason. It was like blistering cold and now all of a sudden, it's like super humid. Right. So what sort of degrees like daily temps to get there? We've been around from 70s to 80s in the last few days, but I don't know it's pretty turbulent. It really wavers. Yeah, right. I'm just gonna look at what that is. is in Celsius. So fair. I have this thing where I like I have a I've always been like, are 20? About 21? Yeah, that's nice. I like to know about people's weather. I don't know, it just helps me put things in context, if I can visualize and feel myself in, is I understand what your place is like. Oh, totally sure thing I've always done. And it's, it's weird, but I don't know, it's just one of those things. Like, I just want to know, when you wake up, do you put on a sweater or shorts? Let's see these in that. Yeah, you can feel like I can. Yeah, I want to say I can make a judgment about a face because that's not really true. It's very superficial. But you know, you can get a feel for a place if you sort of get the vibes. What's happening? Yes. You're a photographer and a podcaster, can you share with us what you do how you got into it, I never in a million years planned on creating a podcast at all. It wasn't something that I had planned to do. Basically, last year, about two weeks into my maternity leave, I got laid off from my full time job. And I really didn't see coming like, at all you'd like to think that. And I was there for about six years. And you'd like to think that you would kind of get a sense for it. And when I didn't, I felt very whiplashed I felt so something changed. And I knew that for the tail end of my employment there, it had turned into something that I didn't love. And I knew I wanted to make the switch, eventually to be full time on my own. But I didn't expect the rug to be pulled out from under me. So it was like a little bit of a humbling experience, but also an experience of if I could work that hard and be that loyal, and you know, kind of put that much energy in this one life that I have into someone else's venture, then I certainly can do that for myself. So you know, by the end of it, it was like, Oh, do you would you like to reapply blah, blah, blah. And I was like, You know what? No, I'm gonna double down on myself. At the worst possible time, we had just moved into my new house, our first house ever second baby, you know, it was just of all the times to take the plunge. But you know, in some ways, I feel like it was the best possible time to take the plunge. Because if I wasn't going to do it at the most uncomfortable than what was going to make me do it, you know, otherwise. So? Yeah, that's it. Because when things are really good, you're not your brains not going there is it's Yeah, yeah. Happy. And yeah. Have you had experience in, like photography and that sort of stuff? Like growing up? Or how did you get into that? Yeah. So I was, I really got into it in high school, I was taking all of like, the advanced placement classes, and like the calculus and the English, and it was just what I was doing, but I knew that the only class that I really loved was my photography class. But for some reason, there wasn't. It just didn't occur to me, it didn't dawn on me that I could pursue that it was just like, oh, but that is just too good. This too fun. And I didn't really take it like seriously as a career path. And then I had happened upon Do you know who Jim Goldberg is? He's a documentary photographer, and I happened upon his work. And I remembered specifically because it definitely was a moment where I felt like my brain changed. Like, it was like a, you know, one of those electric moments, where and it was particularly the series he did on the rich and poor, and it were these black and white photographs. They were just very honest, looking at the camera, and then he would hand it to them and have them just write something about what they thought about the photo. So it was just this moment where I was like, oh, like photography can be more than a pretty picture. Like it was just it seems very trivial, but it was a huge moment for me and my brain. And so after that I decided to go pursue it in college. So I went to a private art school, a Ringling College of Art and Design in Sarasota, Florida, and I graduated with a BFA in photography in digital imaging with a minor in Business art and design there and so yeah, that's that's my background and I had I mean, I had been photographing since you know, I could get those digital or those disposable cameras in a very composed The way I, I say that when I was in middle school, there was this moment of me laying in my bed, looking at the ceiling about to fall asleep, where I think the concept of death just dawned on me as well. Things kind of dawn on me like a two boys. I remember thinking about, you know, just like nothing mattering. And I don't know, something just panicked in me. And I felt like, oh, I need to make things to let people understand how I feel about them, I need to make things because eventually, what I think and feel might not matter, like my favorite color, and my favorite band, like might not matter. But whatever I make, can be left behind. So I very much became a maker from that point. Do you find when you watch movies, that you can't just watch it, you have to like find the deeper meaning in everything. Like, it's just I have to I honestly, I have like two modes. I either I have to watch the very, very, like easy to watch like Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the you know, deep emotion, or I'm in the depths of No, I don't know, I I I think I'm I just this past year became familiar with the term HSP highly sensitive person, I really think that I'm like, like, medically that I can't even if I know it's not real, and it didn't happen. I carry it like an anchor on my chest for like weeks. So I have to pick and choose my intake. Yep, no, I can relate to that. It's like that empaths sort of energy where you take it in. And it's like you're experiencing spirit experiencing yourself. Like, I can't listen to like true crime or anything like that. Because I can visualize myself and feel myself in the position of that person. Both people like the victim and the perpetrator. Like, I just can't do it. It's too much. Yes, yeah. And I dropped my sister mad when we watch movies, because there's darkness and she's up there like the I don't know, I can. Yeah. Settlers my, my partner, he is a computer animator. So if we're ever like watching a Pixar movie, or something we'll be watching and be like, Do you know how hard it is for them to do those bubbles. And like a few of us it's really, it's really should be hilarious. And it's like, you're gonna give it to us about your bubbles. Like, oh, my gosh. So I heard about this exercise to like write a letter to someone that inspires you deeply. And then to someone that drives you nuts and to after you're done writing it, change the name to your own name, and then read it again. And, gosh, I want to give credit where it's due, I believe it was on a podcast called I like your work. Yeah, I believe that's what it was. And I was like, that sounds so interesting. So I was in my studio. And I just started writing a letter to this photographer that I loved so much. And I was like bawling, like by myself up and he's like, passed like he passed young. I never met him no exposure to him. But for some reason I feel this like, deep soul connection to him. Anyway, but it made me want to get a tattoo for him because I a few years ago, I purchased a book of his on eBay. And I could have gotten it brand new. But I chose to buy the one that he signed, but he labeled it to bill. And I was like how could bill sell this? He touched it. He taught like I was like, No, I want it. I don't care if it's effed up like I want to have the book that he touched in some way like that. I don't know I carry something for me. So it was like if I get like a a tattoo that said Dear Larry love Bill Oh my gosh. Oh, fat. It reminds me I had a conversation the other week with a lady who's a potter functional product, but she also does some ceramic stuff. And we're talking about how, when you pick up a piece of pie, I've got a not a sugar bowl, what's it called a fruit bowl. And when I pick it up, sometimes I put my thumb in the same spot where there's an indent of the thumb of the person who made it. And it's just that incredible connection. Like, oh, I just spins you out. Like, I just love that, that. Yeah. That just gave me goosebumps. Ah, yeah. Tell us more about your podcast, what it's called, and what you do, and all that sort of stuff. So the podcast is called helped me see. And it it's funny, because it's probably the least planned thing I've ever done in my life. And it continues to be that. And I know that it has to be that for me to continue doing it. So helped me see is all around just having very real and honest and vulnerable conversations, you know, much like you do here, you know, challenging norms. And also just trying to make sense and meaning out of these, like, these feelings that we have that we swear we know better, but we can't help but have and like the wavering of it, and the waffling of it. And so I do have guests on the show. But I also do a lot of solo episodes that are just basically like my audio diary recordings of me just talking about the things that really rev me up. And I would say that one of the, although my focus is in Photographic Arts, and I really have a strong passion point for kind of reimagining the way that we think about our photographs and the way we photographs or our lives. I would say one of the main driving forces of me, being so radically transparent with my own feelings is when I had a bout with postpartum depression. And after my first child, and I was just so taken aback and kind of mad at no one and everyone, I felt like so shocked that I could feel this bad and not have had any sort of exposure to it. Like I and I feel like it is getting better. I do feel like I maybe it's the algorithm, I don't know. But I feel like I'm seeing so much more just like honest sharing. But I think that I just felt so shocked that I was so shocked by how I felt and didn't see it coming at all that I was like, I will never, I will never hide my truth, even if it helps one person. Like I remember coming back from maternity leave. And you know, people were so innocent and welling, well intentioned, but would be like, Oh, that must have been so lovely. And I was like, No, it was really terrible. It was really terrible. And I could see them be uncomfortable. But I had to I had to just be honest, because, you know, that's how I know. That's how I got there. So you know, that person innocently having that exchange with me? If I were to have, you know, glazed by it, perhaps they might be more apt to experience that. So, you know, I love that. Yeah, because I think I have had my own experience with postnatal depression as well. And it's really important, I believe, for what you're doing and what I attempt to do as well to normalize these emotions, that it's not bad, you're not a bad mother for feeling this way. It's a society has got this, this set of expectations of how you're supposed to feel. And I just want to smash them up and say that we can feel however, we want to feel how we need to feel and the more we talk about it, the better that we're all going to be because I think that's the thing the woman that said that to you might not have been a woman sorry. That's how she's been exposed to it. And probably the same thing has had people who maybe didn't have the courage that you did to say actually, no, that's this is not how it is, this is how it is, you know, this is reality. You know, if everybody goes around pretending that it's fine, then you know, it'll continue to be the way it is. Or has been. So yeah, good on you. I mean, in that it, it those are the more acute like I'd say heightened important areas but it, it is rampant. It's like when someone just says, Well, how are you? If you ever say anything other than fine or oh, great, then it's like, okay, that's too much. I just asked because it's a social norm, you're supposed to say, you the script, the script, you know, don't deviate from the script. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like the are there's a delay, I've just started following on Instagram. Who, I mean, there's a lot of women that are doing it now, which is great, you're basically telling it like it is, you know, I'm not a bad mother, because I, I got frustrated with my children today, because they wouldn't listen to me, you know, just just calling it out and saying, This is fine. This is life, and we're allowed to feel crap. You know, the thing that I found really challenging, when I was starting to tell people about my personnel depression is that I, no one said it to me, but I had this idea in my head that I should feel grateful that I was able to have children. So I shouldn't feel this way, you know. And, honestly, it's like, you cannot control the chemicals in your brain, you cannot control that, you know, I've had actually had someone tell me once that depression wasn't real, and I thought, you've never experienced it, you've got no idea, this woman that I met, that, that was reckoned through daily affirmations, you could keep yourself well. And I said to her short, that might be able to help with a low mood, you know, a bit of exercise never hurt anyone, you know, getting outside and talking yourself up a bit. That's great for low mood, but if you use you actually, physically in your brain, the chemicals are not doing what they're supposed to do, then you're going to experience an altered sense of reality. And that's the truth of it. You know, I feel like slapping this woman when she told me that I won't speak to her anymore, because it's like, how do you know, it's scary, it's scary that those those sentences can come out of, you know, because, you know, thank goodness that you have the understanding that you do, because I mean, the last thing someone needs is to feel even more isolated. And yeah, I definitely relate to what you were saying about oh, I should, all the things you should feel it's the least amount of helpful when I was going through it. I'm like, Oh, I'm not in the NICU. I was going through all the reasons why it didn't make sense. And I, you know, should be grateful that something that I was talking about recently is, you know, this, this not only toxic positivity, because I feel like that's was a huge thing for me. But also, I feel like the more nuanced version is weaponizing gratitude with yourself. Oh, I should be grateful. I'm grateful. Why am I feeling if I was more grateful, I wouldn't feel like this. And it's just the least amount of helpful thing ever. Oh, yeah. I want to mention a quote that I found through your Instagram, which was amazing, and I want to hear more about it. So you said the photograph is not just a souvenir to help you remember? Can you share more about that? And the sort of the deeper meaning behind that? Yes, it's strange to hear me quoted. I was like, what what did I say? Say your face you like? Yeah, the photograph is not a souvenir just to help you remember, I, I truly feel that. Photographs, although that is a huge benefit of them. It's not just something to help you remember, I think that it's something that can be used to help you engage more in your life. It's an active viewing and experiencing of your life. And I also there's no notion of, you know, a moment frozen in time, although it is very much an image that stays the same. The meaning transforms and transcends like, time and space. And you know, that staying the same, but we're continuing to grow our lives are changing circumstance, everything. So you can take a photo of something and feel a certain way about it. And two weeks later, a month later, 10 years later, feel completely different about it. First photograph is semi meaningless, and then all of a sudden, it becomes the most important thing because it's the last of whatever, you know, it's just this these magical little blips, I call them breadcrumbs for your life. because not only is it something that I believe to be like a form of acknowledging and, you know, being more present in the moment. But it's also this gift that you give yourself later in life to seek comfort, understanding, healing. I mean, just so much. There's just, it's just the whole world. I mean, that can dive into every nook and cranny. And it's incredible to me, because it's, you know, and I think that it's in today's day and age, it's almost being looked at as something that's like a gluttonous act. Right? Like, whenever you feel like the impulse to take a photo, it's almost like a shameful thing. Like, why can't I just be present? And that is like, yeah, yeah, that's my soapbox. Yeah. And this this thing that oh, you've always got your phone in the in your hand, because you're always thinking about a photo. Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to Yeah, hearing that. Feeling. Yeah. But I mean, you are your own internal compass. And I think that we are super sophisticated. And we know if it's coming to enough to distinguish where that's coming from, you know, if you are feeling the pressure to take a photo because of an expectation, or because you want to post it or, and you also know if it's a very organic spark that you just, it comes out of you. And it's before you even realize that your phone is out. And it's because you have this deep inner knowing that this is a moment for you. Like we see a bajillion things a day, like 360 degrees, like, if we're blessed with eyesight we see so much in a day. And when you have that spark of like, I want a photo of this. It is like a recognizing so many more levels into a moment than we I think we're aware of in that moment. It's like we're wise beyond her years. And, you know, if we just take the photo, even if it's a super snapshot, casual, not cute, whatever, I believe that those are breadcrumbs for leave or later for reason. I was thinking about this, leading up to talking to you I have I have a thing where I have to take photos of flowers, or what I see is intensely beautiful things. And I was thinking about it as you know, as I would because I think everything is that just because I like beautiful things? Or is it is there's something deeper in there. Like that they make me feel good. Or you know what I mean? Like it's not a frivolous thing. Like I was talking to one of the ladies on the mother world episode, Tasha was saying, like I have I collected a lot of artwork of, I'm not going to show you because it's an absolute mess. But I have a corner in my room where I put the proper artwork that real artists did that I put in frames, and I just I love having them. They're just so beautiful, and I love them. And she was saying how society can view beauty as a frivolous thing. You know, what's your take on that? I believe that. And also, Tasha is like a genius. I wish. I was like, I don't even understand the magic coming out of your mouth right now. I believe that we respond to things that we don't know until we know, I think that it's with the flowers, perhaps one day, okay, like, ah, that's why I get that a lot. I get that a lot. Like, I have these moments where I feel like I've had this incredible breakthrough. And then all of a sudden, I look back and I'm like, I've been doing the same shit for 20 years. It's just a different way. So far as to like, I think that what we're recognizing, and that the same way I feel about taking pictures like of your daily life, like whether it be a flower or whether it be a moment of your kids or whatever, not knowing what exactly you're responding to, until you look back at it from your bird's eye view and find that common thread and understand what it is you're responding to. You know, I just I don't know why this is making me think it's kind of it's similar but not exactly the same. I think about that photographer. I was telling you about my favorite photographer. Ever. I had this moment of like there's this other photographer that I usually am not like the biggest fan of his work. It's beautiful, but I found this one book of his and I was like oh my goodness like I'm I just have this and I didn't understand why. Because I'm like, he's not usually my fit might you know exactly for me, but this feels like, oh, and I open it. I could cry just talking about it. It freaked me out so much. I had no idea. Apparently, my that photographer that's my favorite Larry, she mentored him. And he specifically was the thank you for that book. I was sobbing, I was like, Are you kidding? Like, you can't make that up. And it's just what is for us is for us as for us, and the more we're able to like recognize it. I feel like the more we pull it in, which is why one of in my deep dive, of course, I made I late and it's all about this and our photographic tendencies, but it's called and some people, I don't know if I should change the title, because I feel like some people get confused by it. But it feels so true to what it does. I called it manifest your memories. Because I, I desire to help you just feel more confident in your ability to recognize your right moments, not better photos, not whatever. But the photos that are meant for you. Because once you know what your right moments are, you see more of them, and you create more of them. Yeah, yep. Yeah. When you're aware. And you you've got that in your mind. You're very conscious of it. And yeah, yeah. So you mentioned your course there. Can you share more about what you do in your career? You post creation in your education? For people? Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, it's all about in uncovering of you. It really is. I know, it's, sometimes it takes me a bit to explain, because I think that because I'm a photographer, I think it's more expected that I'm helping you take better pictures, but really, it's helping you kind of understand what you're responding to, and what that process can give to you. Because it really can be depending on, you know, the emotional state you're in, you can take a snapshot, because you just want to quickly get it and just be in the moment or it could really be like inexperience, I think that we underestimate the amount of decisions we make, especially people that don't quote unquote, identify as creative, which is come on, I got a bone to pick with that everyone's creative. Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Yes. It's like all from the framing to the, you know, what, how far you're in or out, even if it's like an amateur, whatever. It's all very important, and just kind of helping us reimagine, and like gain a new respect and understanding for your unique vision of your life. Yeah, that's the thing I think you don't want to diminish, just because the photo might not be aesthetically perfect or pleasing or whatever, that does not diminish the fact that whoever took that photo was taking it for a reason that's relevant to them. Which, yeah, and I guess that's art, too. It's like, everything's subjective. You know, the person that painted something, was doing it for their benefit. They weren't doing it, to make it beautiful for you to put on your wall. Like, you know, everyone's got that meaning inside of them that comes out in their creativity. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was just talking to someone who like, just burst out crying because she was flipping through her phone and she had been somewhere and she just saw, I could cry, she saw a picture that her son had took of her that she didn't know he took, and it's just the thought of, it's enough to bring me to tears, you know, like it just everything has like boundless opportunities for like meaning and to touch you and you know, when I think about our, you know, the quality of like, professional photos or whatever I think about just the complete catalyst for my whole business, which was like the passing of my beloved dog. I say that his passing was like this completely unplanned, unintentional, like, confirmation of my whole concept of like, the work that I'm doing and everything that has come since then, because it was my first real death. It like close to me lucky enough. It was my end. It just happened last year. And it was when I went back to look through the archives of my photos of him. They it was the weirdest thing because if they function the way I thought they would, it was like Yes, this is what I encountered like this fear I carried with me for so long of losing anyone and him. I was interacting with it the way I wanted to, but something that I wasn't shocked by but I was, I was impressed by how intense this was, was my comfort and desperateness for the photos that were the worst quote, unquote, like, the blurry cellphone photos, right just happened to Cat catch, like a really funny look on his face with the jowls or like, you know, us laying in bed, it was so dark, you can barely see. But I remember I just really wanted to capture, like how he was like, nestled in me. And it wasn't the gorgeous, Regal ones, like, I'm so happy to have them. I love them. But the ones that I was yearning for, were not the most beautiful ones. You know, that's, I'm so passionate and sharing that because I would never want someone to not take the beautiful responsibility of taking the most important pictures of their lives, because they're too busy, you know, waiting for a professional to do it for them. Because that professional could never take the most important pictures of your life. It's only you. Yeah, and that's the thing, like, and I have had professional photographers on the show before. So I'm not saying this to diminish their worth, by any means. But I feel like it's something that people they put off until the time's right? Like, I will wait to get the professional shots to finish having our family or I want to lose a bit of weight first before I do it. So you're putting off capturing the moments that are happening, actually your life is happening. Until you get to a point where you feel like things are, I'm putting that in inverted quotes, air quotes, again, a right or perfect, which is the horrible word. You know, so it's like, taking the photos every single day or you know, every time the moment calls to you wildlife is happening. And you can then you can get your photos that you want to have the beautiful photos on the wall, which look amazing. You walk into people's houses. I don't have them because I don't know, I just don't like seeing my big head everywhere. But you know, and what's important to to other people, you know, we're all different, and of what you know, we want. But yeah, like not letting life slip by and not letting life happen to you. But you're actually experiencing your life as it's happening to you. Yes. And I mean, I know that what you're saying makes me think about how, I mean, it's no secret that the most important moments of our lives are the tiniest, like it's the mundane, quiet ones. And, you know, the, the times that we usually think about hiring and investing in you know, photography tends to be the events and, and, you know, for for good reason, too. It's an investment and it's a production, it is a thing, but I mean, I, I think about how funny it is that I'm the photographer of the family. And oftentimes on the holidays, it's the last time I'm pulling out my camera, like unless it's like a camcorder or something because I just, I don't there's already enough going on that day. I don't, I don't need more on the plate like I don't I know for me, those are not the moments that are the most important moments. So unless something trips up inside of me and I do take the photo, but it's kind of like inverted, like those, like those milestone moments are, are very sweet. And they're important not to diminish them. Like the celebration is always important. But I mean, not to be cliche, but it is it's like your life is like everything. And then the graduation. A wedding. It's like, those are not a moment that are like the meat of your life. Yeah, I just as we're talking about that reminds me of I had a guest on the podcast, Monica Crowley. I had her on the podcast. She's an Irish visual artist, and she's really, really passionate about recording. The moment she's a predominant oil. Artists works with oils, and one of her works is of the items in the sink. So she did this series of things that were in a sink because she was spending a lot of time at the sink. So it was like recording just these mundane, everyday ordinary moments. Yeah, because as moms, we we do a lot of repetitive tasks. There's a lot of things we do a lot every day. Yeah. And what how what do you feel about this? Moms making sure they're in photos? Is that something that you're keen about as well? Yes. I actually have a I have a I have to send you the link. It's just a free challenge. I'm so passionate about it. I made this like inbox challenge. It's brilliant. You sign up and you can just get through it's over three days three prompts. I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm saying very simple things. But the point is, my biggest point is in this topic is to not make permanent decisions off of temporary feelings. Because, listen, I'm not immune to this, like, we all know, when we feel like we're having a good day or not having a good day, or we're this or that. But not taking that moment to get in the photo regularly, is making a very strong decision for yourself leader, and not only yourself, but your kids to not, you know, not being in that frame. And also, I mean, I think about my whole life up until, like, last year, I hated my profile, I just hated the bump on my nose hated it. And then all of a sudden, I looked at this photo last year with me and my two boys, and I, it was a straight profile picture. And I was like, I don't care anymore. I was shocked. I was like, not only do I not care, but I actually quite liked that picture. And it's like, imagine if I would have been ducking from the camera, you know, we're very conscious of it. You know, I think that sometimes we can get caught up in like all of the posting in the social media, but we have to remember that, you know, not saying that, to make yourself uncomfortable, when it's not something that feels good to you. But at the same time, take comfort in not all of these photos are for anyone else to see, like your photographs, or you know, it's like your visual diary of your life, you know, so. And I think that we can underestimate our, the healing we get from that as well. I think about what my photos of me from postpartum Of course, I took the pictures of you know, I've made myself up and blah, blah, blah with the babies. But those pictures make me feel uncomfortable to look at because I see myself smiling. And I know, like, I know what it felt like. And it makes me uncomfortable to see those. And then I see the pictures that I took in my lowest hours. Because I do you have that weird thing where I'll take a selfie when I'm not well, and I find such compassion for myself that I don't know that I would have thought to even have for myself had I not seen the pain of like a previous version of myself, it's kind of like, you're looking at a picture of yourself as a little girl. Like you just have this compassion that you don't have for yourself as as naturally now, which is something that you know, I feel like also needs to be worked through and I'm working through but these photographs are openings for us, huh? Yeah, I love that. So one of your I don't know whether just call it a program or a course. Sorry, is called nostalgia now 10 member membership, can you share sharing with us what that is about? That is my newest creation. And I say that I knew that I was onto something when I had when it came to me. And I did a like a mock run of it by myself. And I was so excited that I was like panic, because if I haven't I've been doing this for myself in my life for longer. So in full transparency as as usual with me. So my course I was finding I'm like this is it's just hard to explain succinctly. Right? Like, I don't think that it's people understand it as quickly. And I think that it's it can be confusing if you're not already like a part of this world. And I was like what is a way to like, implement the theory and the function of like what I'm getting at here that in a way that's like doable, simple, sustainable, and like realistic for like busy overwhelmed moms. And this is what I thought of i It's a once a month meeting. And I also have like a portal of like different resources because we have an intention for each month. And I'll add like curated meditations in it and I'll upload the video versions of my podcast as a way to like keep momentum through the month. But at the in this meeting, it's two hours in the first hour is like coworking, so I send out these templates that are just artfully done and there's like only space for three or four photos. And I put like a vague prompts in it like something that made you feel expansive or something that you want to take with you for the rest of your life or something, whatever. And you're only allowed to look at all of the photos up on your scroll from the last month. And so you've been on your music, we are an hour your were muted on Zoom, and you're just looking at the photos that took place. Over the last month of your life, and you can only pick four, which is a weird, hard, but also fascinating thing, it's just this crazy way to get intentional. And also see the scope of what happens in a whole month, I'm shocked at what happens in a whole month. And to kind of like witness yourself from like a bird's eye view, because you know that you're the taker of these photos, and to like, look back and see, notice what you noticed, and then create this thing. So you have like this visual of the that month of your life. And then we go around, and it's like adult show and tell. And we just talk about why we chose each photo. And you know, like, what that month and that intention felt like for us. And I really feel like it's such a beautiful way to check in with yourself and make space for yourself in a in a cadence that is realistic, but also so helpful. Because how often do we look back? And we're like, it's been six months into the new year, what the fuck am I doing, like I said, I'm gonna do this, and I haven't and whatever. So it's a way to like, keep you account a gentle way to like, keep you accountable, and like connected to yourself and to your, you know, wrapping up a month and saying, Okay, this is the way this month played out. And like, this is what I'm hoping for this month, you know, and to keep you sort of anchored to the moment. So like, I know, I'm the same, like, it's June, this is insane. Like, what has happened. But yeah, and to actually take stock each month and remembering that Ah, that's right. And, and I think that's important that that why we took that photo and why we chose to include, you know, included in the prompts. In those four photos, like it gives you that time to reflect on yourself, and maybe how you feeling or things that you might like you said, things you want to do that you're putting off or, you know, it's like, I don't want this to sound rude at all. But it sounds so simple, but it's so big and meaningful. You know, like, it's just, I don't know, it's really powerful, isn't it? And as moms like we're so we are so busy, and we're always doing things for other people. And to be able to carve out time for ourselves can often feel like, you know, a luxury or guilt thing, you know, but to actually stop and take stock of ourselves, you know, instead of always saying to other people, how are you? How can I help you, you know, what does this person need? What are my children need, you know, looking at ourselves. And that can be challenging, I think for for many people would be hard to say Well hang on a minute, I'm the least person that matters here. You know that we're putting everybody else first all the time. So it would open up so many things for for everybody. Oh, it's incredible. And it's you know, right now it's a very intimate group. And I will I first to admit, I am a self proclaimed hermit introvert, like the community part of any up until a year ago, the community part of anything I was like, Okay, I mean, I'm a lone wolf. I'm the person that if I was in a group in high school working on a project, I'm like, I'll see you later I'll put your name on it fine. Like not at all, but the value of connecting with like, like feeling souls, not even like minded or like, it's just people that you just see each other. I mean, every time we like, there's almost tears, you know, and it's just so to be witnessed, to be able to like speak your truth and also be witnessed by people that you just know, get it. It's, I don't know that there are words for it really, like I feel like often people can kind of shrug it off and I know that I was one of those people before experiencing it for myself. But you know, I think that that element of it not only does it keep us accountable to actually do it, but it makes it so much more fruitful and if it gives it so much more space. Hmm. Yeah. Now I love it good on you. I think that's a wonderful thing. And I'll put all the links if anyone's interested in checking this out. I'll put all the links in the show notes and that is awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Now, let's talk about your children. Oh yeah. The D so you've got two children, boys, two boys. Oh boy. I'm hearing you in almost four year old caches, and then Silas is like 16 months. Oh, nice little boys. Yeah. And they are so different. So different. My first one. It's funny I, I have like, I really do wonder if like their births had something to do with how they are now because my first one was is a very sensitive, deep feeling intense, little boy. And like my labor was really hard. It was like a very, I got postpartum, the whole thing. And then my second son, I was like bopping on a ball Post Malone. And he is just a savage. She is like, nothing upsets them. Everything's a joke to him, like, different. You know what, there might be something in that because my first labor was very, very quick and intense and incredibly, horribly insane. And my sense, the same is a real is real impact. Everything's really deep. And he takes things in so sensitive. And the other one ah, water off a duck's back, you know, completely different. How old? So the older one, he's 14, and my little one is about to turn seven. So, so it stayed true. It stayed true to them as they grew. Oh, hey, personality? Absolutely. They're just like chalk and cheese. Unbelievable kids. Larry sees often wonder how that happens when you've got the you know, in our case, you know, the same the same parents? How are they? Ah, it's insane. How do you find then they're coming into your world, you becoming a mom, how has that affected the way you see things in your photography? I feel that they've definitely, it's like a, I don't know, it's making me think about like a magnifying glass like, wood on concrete. With the sudden I get it feels like a very acute, like heightened everything. But I definitely really didn't know I didn't understand what my transformation would be like in becoming a mother. I think I had this underlying belief that once I had children, my cup runneth over from them. And I would the emphasis like, because, you know, I'm a naturally anxious person, I get very overwhelmed, but I felt like once I have kids, like that will be my world. I will focus on that. And that will be so fulfilling and XYZ and this is how I'm going to be. That's not at all how I was like, it's just crazy to me. And it you know, it sounds so naive. But I really did think that like I had a friend who had a baby who, you know, she was very much on the fence and didn't know if she ever wanted one. And then when she did she was just on genuinely on cloud nine blissed out. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if she was blissed out, I'm gonna be like, correct because I have been wanting a baby for so long. Just not at all, how, how I felt and how I've kind of processed the change, but, you know, they are still like a boot camp for me. I mean, I am like, a they're a mirror for me in that. They intensify all of the best and worst in me. And I am so aware of when I'm at my worst in terms of what I'm feeling and what I don't want to project because I don't want to pass on the traits that I've inherited to my children. So there, they keep me honest, in not that I'm always you know, I always pass the test in, you know, not doing my natural reactions. I I have like a very overly protective worrywart, Italian New York father. And I just grew up with like, the most worry, fear consumed everything. And I'm very much trying not to pass that on. And I know that they can sense even when I'm not saying it, I know that they can sense that energy from me. So they're really helping me to become more aware and work through that. Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. That's yeah. I love that. It's interesting. I actually saw this quote, this just this morning when I was scrolling. I really want to find it now. But I don't know if I'm gonna be able to it was about the gist of it was how basically the gist of it was We're very different parents and our parents were deliberately we're trying to do things differently. We're trying to, and I'm not saying our parents did a bad job, that was the world that they lived in is a different world that we're parenting in. Yeah. What was, you know, acceptable, the norms of what you did and how you interacted with your children. So we're conscious of that. And we want to, I mean, I guess we don't, we don't want to put our kids through things that we went through, you know, being kind to our parents that are listening. And they probably say the same thing about their parents, you know, each generation learns as we go. So, it's, it's overwhelming, because it's like, it's everywhere. Like, it's in the most innocent of places, and the most normal of tongues, like, I think about something that'll fly out of my mouth. And, or I'll hear someone else say, and I'm, like, hold the phone. That is so effed up, like, so. It was, you know, if my kids no tears, be a big boy, no tears, I'm like, Just fucking terrible. But it's like, so it's so quote, unquote, innocent. But it is until it's not like, it's like, thank goodness, we're having these like, awakenings to it, but it's like, kind of, you know, if you sleepwalk through it, and if you just let it happen, because that's what has been done before. We all know how that goes, you know. So it, you know, all we can do is the best we can do, but it could drive you crazy. So I think that giving grace and being grateful for the awareness, because that is the most beautiful thing. And that, you know, I mean, it just does tie back to the way I think about photography. I the awareness and the impulse and the thought to take a photo, just the recognition of like, hey, that doesn't feel right saying that to my kid, or that is so much more powerful than any action you take. In that moment. Like, you could fuck it up. You could say you could have said that and like, then they went to school and you didn't have a moment to make it right in that moment. Or, you know, you know, you thought to take the photo, and then you did but it didn't feel right, you wish you didn't, whatever. It's, it's the awareness. It's the seeing it, that is the biggest breakthrough of all that unlocks everything that comes after and it builds from there. So I think releasing ourselves of like, doing it wrong, or like should have what occurs or regrets and just feeling gratitude for like, Hey, I saw that, like, I'm aware of that. Yeah, that was a big, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's, it's really relating to like this conversation that I'm having right now, presently, actually, ironically, about how, like presence and how this term feels like this elusive like, Yeah, can't ever grasp it. Like I, I always am hearing often that like, a lot of people, I feel this I've set it to, it's hard to be present in my life. And what really got me thinking about this in a more, like, problem solving type of way is that when I would tell people that I truly believe that you don't have to choose between being present and taking the photo, I would see their shoulders drop, like, as I was anyone to tell them give them permission how to be in their life the way they want to be. And it just made me think about how we are putting presence on this pedestal and like thinking that like, it has to be this, you know, this like come to whatever moment when really, we need to just recognize our own unique ways of being present. Because it's not just one way it's not just you know, we are when we are we are and it looks in different ways. Like sometimes I think about presence. He even when you look it up the definition is like to not have your mind stray from the current situation. And when I don't I don't even agree with that. It's like sometimes presence is like, okay, like, I'm looking at the pores on my kid's face and like, really like studying him. And I'm present and sometimes I'm present and I feel like I can see through like different lifetimes. I'm like looking at a moment. And I like zoom up and I can see like so much more and of course my brain is Going somewhere else, but like, I really feel like both versions of presence in my life like I don't Yeah, that see, I can agree with that too. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I can't even explain it but I know what you mean Yeah. Now I'll go to a subject that I really I love talking about. And I always say it sounds terrible when I say I love talking about guilt. But I just find it so fascinating. And I think that idea when you mentioned about this presents being this attainable thing, everyone's got to be present, because everyone's telling us we've got to be present. And if we're not present, we'll feel bad about it. This whole guilt laden thing, talk to me about your, your thoughts about guilt and like mum guilt, I put that in air quotes as well. It's like, it's like a magician that like keeps pulling like the flags out of his Our scars out of his bag, it just you keep peeling off the layers when you think you're clear of it. I think that guilt, mom guilt is a very specific type of guilt. And I also feel that artist, Mom yield is an even more cute version of it. Because being that intensely aware of the impermanence of something and being able to see the depths of the beauty, and so many moments of your life, can make you feel so beholden to meet that moment there. And sometimes you're just not there. Sometimes you do. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scrolling my phone. I just wasn't i How many times are they going to be in the battle? It's like you go through the Rolodex like I know, I know, a B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuffed myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I'd never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like I just felt I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to and I closed my eyes. I was like, I can't see any more. I can't I can't take in any more. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about about guilt and about it's this it's the knowing it's that wise like I get it I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not I'm not there and I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment you know, that is brilliantly put honestly, I need to put a put a hand clap that was amazing. You have literally summed up how I feel about mom guilt. Don't make me cry. Like honestly. I'm going to take this moment and frame it like that is just so good. You will hear this quote again. Love it. Yes, it is so hard to like to know it's like you know, cuz you sit there and you can be so hard on yourself and you're like I know better. I see this is incredibly How could I not want to be there but you Just there's, there's only so much going on. And that's it, isn't it? And that whole thing of that if we can't, you know, we have, we can't be this martyr, we can't be this completely selfless person that puts our needs above everybody else's. Because we won't survive. And it's not sustainable. And it's not. I don't think it's a good thing to be showing our children either that, you know, the mother is the sacrificial lamb and yes. Yeah, how would you want your child to put themselves like to prioritize themselves and in their life? You know, it's funny, I this quote, I went to an artist talk in when I was living in San Francisco, and it was it stuck with me. It's one of those things that stuck with me, there's a couple of those. And you know, sometimes something sticks with you. And you're like, I don't know that this is going to be good to be sitting in me. But I've had a couple of those moments. But this one that in particular, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of it's Francis Ford Coppola. And it was a q&a part of the lecture. And someone raised their hand and said, Well, what advice would you give a young artists director in their career? And he sat there for a moment, and he said, It was the most honest thing you could have said, you can't even get mad at him. He was like, I'd say, if you're a male, the starting your career, get married, have children. If you're a woman, don't get married, don't have children. Like that was his career advice. He's right. He was right for what he was saying, for that time. I get it. Because I feel that I'm in a very balanced relationship. And it's still not balanced. It's still there is not apples to apples. If we had the same night planned, and he was out, my my partner was out. And then I was out, we took turns. I'm not exaggerating, the night would be three times harder. For me. They're different children with me, they feel there's so much more turbulent, absolutely. It's just the way it is. And unlike the natural, and he and my partner, he is so accommodating and helpful when I need it. But this the setpoint the state that is the weight sways this way. And, you know, there has to be work done to help balance that and we have to be extra vocal, in my experience, I have to be extra vocal to speak for my needs. And that requires excavating and that requires, you know, realizing inequities where we don't even realize it's happening, but it is so deeply ingrained. We don't even identify them. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, it's funny that I feel like my children like I had a perfect example last night where my little fella was some my husband and put him to bed. And he was out. Two minutes later, he came down to me and wanted to chat and I. And I said, I said, Hang on a sec, aren't you supposed to be in bed? And he goes, Yeah. And I said, I said, I, I did hate using these words, but I do. I said, I'll tell dad. And he goes, and he races back to bed. And my, my eldest son was there. And I said, Hi, why does that happen? And he goes, he goes, Yeah, I remember when when I was little, that wasn't even home. But you pretended he was home and called out to him. And that made me get back in my bed. You know, but like, my husband is not, you know, a big domineering men. He's not like physically like, he, you know, he doesn't there's no reason for my children to fear him. It's just this whole thing or wait till your dad gets home you know, like this. This culture is you know, dead serious. Our mom you know, she might let me stay up a bit longer because she's a softy. You know, it's just this it takes me an hour to get my son in bed if I he like puts a I say it's like his physical alarm system on me. He'll swing his leg over mine. So I tried to like double Oh, seven get out of the bed and I can so I'm like, half the time I fall asleep putting him to bed because he prisoner. And, uh, he, my partner will put them take him up. He sings to lullabies to him, and he's out and that's it. I'm like, Ah. And it's like, it's beautiful. And but that's the thing too. Like, what the girl it's like, sometimes I love it. I always used to think before I had kids. I'm like, How precious is it that they only want mommy? Now I'm like, wow. Oh, no. And sometimes I love it. And sometimes I hate it and that's fine. That was like when, when the boys were little they they often they say dad dad first, like, that's easier for a child to pronounce. Oh, when's he gonna say mom? When's he gonna? Like he says, Mom, and then he never stopped saying that kid is saying, Well, that's what we feel about my, my youngest walking, everyone's like, is he walking yet and we're like, we don't want him. Like, he'll be walking the rest of his life. It's a new world for us, like we joke about like kicking his knees out from under a cake curl and maybe ctrl T. Yeah, look, I love the way that this conversation has become, I know we're being quite light hearted. But it's, it's true. Like, there is nothing wrong with saying, I need a break in this situation, whatever the situation is, and not feeling guilty about I should be doing this, I should be there, you know, this should that, you know, we put on ourselves because of the external use sort of pressures that we feel. I don't know, I keep I have this thing with social media. You know, it's great. And I utilize it a lot for, you know, my needs for my, for my podcasts and my singing and stuff. But I think it's got the way that people use it. It's got quite bad at making us feel like crap. It's got quite good at making us feel like crap questions. Yeah. You know, all these things are getting better. And like I said before, it might be the algorithms, I'm seeing a lot of good things. But I still feel like there's this, we're just, we don't want to tell it like it is. We want to keep this facade up that everything's fine and everything's good. And this may be a parent's wave, like, you don't speak about who you voted for. And you don't talk about religion, you know, that sort of that way of doing things. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think something that I heard recently brought up and like, oh, boy, yeah, it's true is it's like a a wave of curated authenticity, like, quote, unquote, real like, oh, yeah, this is this is Instagram real Instagram real. And then you don't get to see the real root. Like taking it like one step down from the manicured Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I get I get torn with thinking about it and talking about it. Because like, I I feel that just because I decide that I want to be a stand and a, like, take a stand with transparency, and realness doesn't mean that someone else should have to do that. So I, you know, people have very different levels of like, comfortability and privacy. And I totally respect that. And, you know, to be honest, I don't, I don't even quite I don't even quite know, like, what, what I want from it, because when I think about how it harmed me with the postpartum you know, anyone that I could get frustrated with, like, I would know that they also struggled, but they struggled internally, which is makes me sad, too. You know, it's not even that like, oh, you only post the highlight reel, and I know you struggle. It's like, what can we do to like, just bring these conversations up, like what you said about how we don't talk about that? Because it's like, oh, it's tacky or it's this or it's that it's like what you know, what, what is the hiding? Like, what is who by whose standards like I think it's so funny whenever my friends like planning something and she's like, well, what's the etiquette? Like, whatever the fuck you think is right like it what's the etiquette? Like, no, I don't, but we're gonna go look up whatever some woman said 200 years ago. even like the right way to be a lady, you know, just like so funny that these things, I think it's just, if nothing else, this constant questioning, it's like, let's keep asking questions like, why are we doing the things that we're doing? Why are we, you know, wanting to, you know, match our coordinator clothes for this the photos like, is it a passion point that you love? Great? Is it something that you feel beholden to? And everyone else is doing it that way? Probably not the best reason to do it, you know, it's like, it's something that's right for you are right for someone else's wrong. And I think as long as we just keep asking questions and keep having conversations like this, and you know, these platforms that we're used to just say, hey, it's been like this for this amount of time. But why, like, why, why are we doing it this way? I think that that is the most helpful thing that we can do. Oh, yeah. I completely agree with that. It's just, yeah, we had I'm not sure if it made it to the to your media over there. But we, we had a prime minister, we've changed prime ministers, thank goodness. His name was Scott Morrison and he he is a dickhead, sorry, sorry, sorry, liberal people. We have a is a young lady over here called Grace time. And she was she's an activist in the space of survivors of sexual assault. And she was named the Australian of the Year in 2021. And she's amazing. She's, she tells it like it is she gets up there. And she doesn't care who she's talking to. She's gonna tell she's gonna talk as she wants to talk. And she did amazing things. And she's do it. And at the end of her 12 months of being Australian of the Year, they have a function it was Parliament House where it was at the house of the Prime Minister. That's irrelevant, sorry. But anyway, he, they all go there, the Young Australian of the Year old Australian here, whatever. And she, we have in the Liberal government in the last three years, there's been this incredible, probably longer than three years, sorry, this incredible tone of misogyny. And there's all this stuff been coming out about sexual assaults happening in the workplace in at the Capitol. And, wow, the Liberal government sort of, I don't know, sort of tried to brush it off and hide it and support it continued to, to employ Members of Parliament while they're under investigation for for alleged sexual assault. And anyway, so she wasn't happy about that, as a lot of us weren't, and she called them out on it. So when she went to this long story short, she went to this end of the year event, and she refused to shake his hand, and she didn't look him in the eye. And all the men of Australia just went, how dare she, she shouldn't have been there if she wasn't going to smile. You know, it was just this huge moment of division, where so many women just went well, good on her, like, what is he done? He's he's trying to hide this stuff. He hasn't put things in place to sort it out, whatever. That it was this moment. And even my husband was like, Oh, she's not going to smile. She shouldn't have gone. It's like, men standards about how women have to behave in society. Like you're just saying that, you know, this etiquette. 200 years ago, this woman says you have to put your fork on you on the right, and the spine goes there. And then you have these cups for dessert, like, oh, just makes my blood boil. Yeah, like, yeah, and her and by her behaving in that way, it's caused this huge arrow, and it's done exactly what the women needed and wanted and it's brought it into the forefront. You know, she was so brave to do that, you know, just don't play Happy Families and don't think that everything's fine. And just smile and get on with life, like women have had to do for hundreds and hundreds of years. And, you know, oh, sorry. No, I think incredible to me, even if, even if he didn't have this huge scandal out and all of these very valid reasons. Even if it was something private that happened that no one else knew about. You don't want to shake someone's hand. You know what the funniest thing was? Probably 12 months before that. We had, we had a lot of big fires over here. We had a really bad fire season. And the prime minister went to okay, this how much of a decrease bloke was while the big fires were happening? He went on a holiday to Hawaii with his family. So everyone was like, He's not present. He's not here and his comment his comeback when he was questioned about he said, I don't hold the hose. Right. That was his comment. He doesn't need to be in Australia while this is happening because he's physically not there putting out the fire and everyone was like, you idiot. So he went in visited the fire grounds and went and visited the where it was all happening and he went up to this fire man put his hand out to shake his hand. And this man said, I don't want to shake your hand right? Everyone in Australia we could on your mate Good on you for not shaking his hand. Right but when when a woman does it for different reasons, but it's still women doing the men went apeshit and all we were Yes. Grown Your Grace. Just it's just incredible. I can't it's like you can't make this stuff up. You can't? Oh, yeah. Want to believe that? It's still like, I know sometimes you feel like you're like am I 100 years ago? Like what is that? What it but it is? It is? Yeah, sometimes you think the only things missing is our corsets in the big skirts, like we're still living in that world. Now I want to ask you about your it to do with that concept of identity about being a mother and, and your children? Do you feel like it's important for your children to know what you're doing and as they grow up to see that their mum is contributing to the world in other ways other than meeting their own needs. I think when I think about what I want my children to know, about me. I think first and foremost, I think about wanting them to feel fully seen. And although I mean, there is a child and you know parent relationship. i i I want them to feel like they I want to prioritize them knowing me like I don't want to have a shield them from the real me in many senses. Like something I heard one said that I thought was beautiful. And it's very simple. It it was actually do you know Dax Shepard is he's an actor. Yes. And Kristen. I forget. Anyway, Kristen Bell, and Dax Shepard. podcast as well. I was on one of his podcast episodes that they were talking about how if they have a fight, and if it's not like they go out of their way to fight in front of their kids, but like, if they have a fight, and they witness in any way or arguing or whatever, they make sure that they also witnessed the resolution and the working through it. It's just like this level of transparency of like, and just knowing like, knowing having my kids know who I really am is important to me, way more than them feeling like that their mom contributed, like whatever I end up doing. That is not as important to me as like, feeling them feeling like they knew who I was, and not having them like discover things about me that you know, and, and that's always kind of been even outside of like being a mother. I've always felt like that, like, one time was a maybe a spicy but whatever. I really like, you know, someone asked me once, how do you feel about being a woman? In a, in a industry where, you know, historically ABCD and bubbeleh have? How is it? How do you feel about your feminine perspective? And I was like, I don't want to sound ignorant and I so I'm grateful to the trailblazers and I you know, there's a wealth of history and there's so much to be said but also, I am not. That is not the lens that I choose to hold with me and frame. What I do and My life and what I put in the world. And I'm grateful that like, I don't have to feel like I'm like, That is a torch that I'm carrying now. And I understand, like, what came before me to enable that. But I'm here and I'm now and that is not something that I'm prioritizing. I'm not thinking about that in that way. So I don't, you know, I don't feel that, you know, being can, beholding myself to contributing in any sort of specific way is something that resonates with me, it's more this like, need of feeling truly seen and being able to say the things that I struggle to say, but I find the words for like, the other day, I was thinking about how, after one of my podcast episodes, I felt like a vulnerability hangover. And it was weird, because I'm always like, I always nothing different about that episode than all the others. But for some reason, I feel like maybe I said something for myself, like more strongly than I usually did. And I was like, you know, why? Why do I feel like that? And it's this idea that I'm growing so much, and, you know, sometimes our perspectives change, but like, if we're too afraid to say something, because we might change our mind will see nothing ever, you know, so yeah. And to be able to say, I actually actually have changed my mind about this, you know, yeah, to not feel afraid. Oh, well, there you go. Haha. You know, people Yeah, and it's like, actually, I've done the work, and I've gone through things, and I've experienced life. And now actually, I feel like this, there's, again, no shame in saying stuff like that. Exactly. And having your children bear witness to that, like, could enable them to, you know, maybe not have such a go with their, with their pride and being able to do the same. So, yeah, so that is like, my number one priority for for whatever my kids can see or think of me is just to see the wholeness of, of what I am. Yeah, I really love that. Baby's really, really lovely. I really love that. So that's the thing, like, I feel like, it's sort of related to times when you'd go to funerals for older relatives, and you discover that they did this, that and the other and, like, Ah, I wish I'd have known that. So I could have asked them about it, you know, saying like, I don't know, I, in my eye, again, challenging the cultural norms, this is what it was at the time, you know, my parents, they would hide, you know, certain conversations from us, and probably for good reason, you know, your child, you don't need to know things, but then that still happens a lot in my life now. And I think that's because of the way my parents were raised, to keep things hidden, you know, children are seen and not heard all this sort of, like I said before, about, you know, you don't talk about your political choices. I could not like my dad and I have the best talk about politics. You know, I could not imagine going through my life not having a sounding board for talking about politics, you know, and for my children to, you know, to grow up understanding about the world, you know, there's things that you do want to talk to them about, you know, and not just hideaway or don't talk about that, you know, again, I respect you know, people were living in different times you know, I'm not I'm not bragging that that was the way it was then. But yeah, and I think that's a really powerful thing to say that you want your children to to really see you and to know you as a person and I think that's that's awesome. Yeah. Thank you Do you have anything else that you want to share that maybe you haven't brought up or anything else that's on your mind? You want to know it's just this has been a very juicy conversation. It's been great. It's just so it's so incredible to me. I mean, that I'm able to connect with you on the other side of the world you know, and like we have, we have a lot in common tell you when in a short time, like I feel like we have more in common than we've even uncovered. Just how important this all is. And I think that, you know, something that I saw today, and it makes me think about, right, I'm just thinking about it now. And I'll just say it, I'm, I, I'm in a mastermind with Amber Lee strim. She's a, she's a business coach. And she's really incredible. And she, she said something, she posted something in one of the captions, and it was like, talking about how she put on this, this in person events, when she was going through a time in her business, and, you know, and she was brave enough to do it. And then she did it year after year, and it grew and grew. But at the end, she was saying that, like, even if you're not in the place to, you know, put on inventory, you don't have the resources to XYZ, like, we have such a powerful stage, like every post, every podcast episode, every thing you create has such a world of opportunity attached to it and like could really be the thing that like, helps, and changes and does whatever we just did, and like. And even if it's a needle at a time, it's like the compounding effects of this work is incredible. I mean, it's just like, I've been at this for a year. And you know, I can say that it's been a very slow burn, but at the same time, like the, the consistency and being like this tapped into myself, and the work I'm putting out and being able to make these connections has, you know, I can feel like, oh, you know, look at the numbers and think one thing, but then if I really pull myself up and look back and understand like the body of work, and the connections and the discoveries and the transformations I've gone through, it's it's really incredible. So I just want to thank you for being being a stand for this as well. And like creating the work that you do and connecting with all the incredible artists, I'm honored to be a part of your show. Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you to say and yeah, likewise, yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like I feel the same way. We're all collectively contributing, contributing to a movement, I feel like things are really happening. And this is the time we'll look back on this time and go, you know, this was a significant period of our lives and, you know, society, Western society, in generals life, and we're a part of it, I feel like, you know, and I think that's the thing, because, perhaps previously, because of the work, the way the world was set up, there wasn't the internet or whatever, when someone did something, it was a big deal. Now, because we've all collectively got this access to, you know, the internet, we can do podcasts, we can do blogs, all this stuff, because there are so many people doing it. The reach might not be as broad. But that's the difference. There are so many people doing it now. You know, I feel like, you know, there's momentum in this and I just got goose bumps. If I get like, we are a ship, we are the ship, like you know, a thing isn't a thing until it's a thing. And then enough people I was just listening to. I think he's so cool. His name is Jeff Goins. He's a writer, and he has a podcast called he creator. And he was just talking about how you know, a thing isn't even a thing until someone comes up with it. And it's really weird at first because it's not an a thing. And then enough people believe it, and all of a sudden, that's the norm. And then, you know, and it's like, it's so true. And that's what, you know, all of these norms that we're combating through, like pulling the veil off, you know, that we are not separate from that we are we are doing the work on the ground floor of that. And I think it's so important. It's so incredible. And also, you know, even though it definitely is a, you know, the big pond a bunch, a little fish type of thing in some way, you know, leaning into who we truly are and like own the more we own ourselves, the more powerful we can be for whoever does find us and all of a sudden binge, like, oh my gosh, you were the vehicle that I needed this to come through, like kids. We've all been there where we hear something, and we know that we've heard that same sentiment a bajillion times before but there was something about the way this person said it in this moment that just was the thing you needed and unlocked you and you can never tell we know when that's going to happen but also there probably are no accidents right so yeah. I think you know, this divine timing like when you're ready for this message like yeah, I could tell you a million examples of Napoleon but you know, so many examples of you know, you're saying So you hear this and then one time you hear it, it's might not be delivered any differently, but it sticks in your right eye for you. Exactly. It's hilarious isn't it thank you so much for coming on Bianca. It just has been a really lovely conversation. I've just loved it so much. Thank you. And good luck with the rest of your endeavors doing your podcast and and yeah, just keep doing it. Because it's so good. So thank you so much, and I would be so honored and cannot wait to have you have you as a guest on my show as well. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Madison Foley Australian trumpet player S1 Ep12 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Madison Foley is one of Melbourne’s most sought-after trumpet players. Madison began performing professionally from the age of 16 and Madison was a long-time touring member of alt-pop outfit Architecture in Helsinki and has worked with many of Australia’s greats such as Ash Grunwald, Jazzlab Orchestra and Big Scary . Upon returning to gig life after the birth of her son, Madison faced the pressures of not only performing as a new mum but the pressures of pumping breast milk during gigs. The immense challenges she faced were evident with Madison pumping in some thoroughly unsuitable locations and experiencing a lack of support from venues and organisers. She realised the best way to engage venues and fellow musicians was to create an infographic that highlighted the challenges. We also discuss the challenges of being pregnant and having a baby in the midst of the covid-19 pandemic, and the judgement faced by gigging mums - that dads don't have to contend with, and why she doesn't get caught up in "mum guilt" Connect with Madison on facebook and instagram Read Madison's The Mother Lode article and infographic here Find out more about Madison's bands Fools and JazzLab Orchestra Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Madison Foley. Madison is one of Melbourne's most sought after trumpet players. She started performing professionally at the age of 16 and has been a longtime touring member of alt pop outfit architecture in Helsinki. She's worked with many of Australia's greats such as Ashkelon world, jazz lab orchestra, and big scary. After returning to gig life after the birth of her son, Madison faced the pressures of not only performing as a new mum, but the pressure of pumping breast milk during gigs. The immense challenges she faced were evident with Madison pumping in some thoroughly unsuitable locations, and experiencing a lack of support from venues and organizers. She realized the best way to engage venues and fellow musicians was to create an infographic that highlighted the challenges. We chat not only about this infographic, but we also discussed the challenges of being pregnant and having a baby in the midst of the COVID 19 epidemic. The judgment faced by gigging mums that dads just don't have to contend with and why she doesn't get caught up in mum guilt. Welcome to the podcast Madison, it's lovely to have you today. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be very excited. So you played the trumpet. Tell us how you got into playing the trumpet. So my, my dad was a brass band still is a brass band leader in the community and Tom music at school. And so he came around to our primary school actually. And they had all the instruments out so they were starting a primary school band program. I was all of five years old at the time, I think maybe six. And I walk up to the guy, I'm precocious little six year old and I go hi, I want to know, which is the loudest instrument I want to play that one and so they had me a corner the rest is history. You know so going up through you know, started in primary school went through the local community bands and into high school played the whole way through. You know, I ended up doing it at university and you know, just never put it down again since I was five years old, basically from a couple of small breaks but yeah, that's pretty confident in my life. So what how many instruments do you play? Well look, well I played the trumpet Well, poorly a lot of them I can play very bad keyboard and very very bad bass. Nearly no mostly bad drums can play a little bit of trouble I can play most of the brass instruments I can play a bit of trombone a bit tube or a bit of French on although my trombone playing sisters would probably beg to differ. But you know, they've not none of them really get a lot of love. Now it's mostly just the trumpet. Because at some stage in your life, you kind of have to focus in on one thing which has never been my strong point. I've always been someone who does everything so well I can play the trumpet so I read that you started playing professionally when you were 16 So what sort of gigs we did you start off with what was sort of the stuff you were doing at that age. Um, so at 16 I was my mom would take me down to the pub to go and watch Friends of mine Johnny wonder Pat, who I still play with now all of what that 16 years later so that was they were some of my first gigs I go down to the pub and just sit in with them. I learned a few horn lines to some tunes. They just played covers on a Sunday afternoon and they you know, they thought it was great there was this you know little 16 year old super key and little Maddie going Hi, will you let me play with you. And then I also at school we formed a little jazz group and did you know gigs for like 50 bucks each or whatever, just whoever would hire us just playing some jazz standard. So which that group actually have gone on to all be quite prolific muses themselves. There's Cleo Rana, who now plays rock winds and tours around the world with Angus and Julia Stone as Nick Abbey who's over in mapa. Now and I think he teaches there and will Morrissey, who played He's with Vance Joy, and it's all just, you know, everyone from that little group just ended up going on to do amazing things. It's pretty cool to look back on that now. But you know, there those were mostly my 16 year old gigs either at the pub or at random corporate events that wanted to hire some kids really cheap, basically. Do you so what did that sort of been leading to? You mentioned other people that you've you were with did certain things What have you done then since since those 16 year old days. So since then, I, I studied at the VCA. So I did the improvisation course there, which is jazz. And, look, I'm basically, I'm a freelance music. So I will do literally anything that anyone calls me up to do so long as it sounds like a bit of fun, but there's a bit of money in it. So I've, you know, I've done small, small group jazz, I've done plenty of big bands. So currently play with the jazz live orchestra, and helped organize that one as well. Both Dan McKenzie big band, and a few others around the place. I was in the touring band for architecture in Helsinki for years and years, which was really, really fun, we got to play some amazing concerts to 1000s of people. And, you know, I've done plenty of corporate gigs, or a lot of corporate gigs. Plenty of them going around. My current my current project, which is probably the thing I'm most excited about, in all of my music career so far is a band called falls. And it's a 13 piece, Americana, pop, rock, everything. So extravaganza, it's just the most joyful band I've ever played in without any offense to any of the other major bands are playing. It's just, it's a, we call it the love cult, because everyone just loves each other and loves making music together. So that's been that's been getting really big and going really well. But of course, with COVID, a lot of our grand plans of keep falling away, we're supposed to be touring in about six weeks time, up to New South Wales and Queensland, to do Caloundra and, and a blues fest, and Nashville, but all of those things are not looking super likely. But hopefully, hopefully fools keeps getting out there and keeps getting some of those very cool gigs and planning tours overseas and everything. So it's exciting times for that. And that's nice, because that's something I get to be really creative with as well, all the other, you know, pop groups I've been in have been more, you know, this is the song, this is your home lines, play them now kind of thing. Whereas this one, I'm helping to write all the phone lines, we're writing songs off together. So it's a real kind of combined effort with 13 people, it's very, that'd be like controlled chaos, almost 13 People input. absolute chaos. It's hilarious, but it's just the most fun I have doing anything musically. It's so great. Oh, that's awesome. Because I guess you're doing a lot of corporate gigs, you'd sort of be doing the songs that people know you'd stick to your standards. And, you know, you'd be limited, I guess to what you could do. So this would just be like, you know, open the floodgates off you go have fun with that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the jazz stuff is really creative as well. And, you know, if, if I was so inclined, you know, there's, there's plenty of creativity, I could follow in there, but I just don't have I don't have the focus to kind of sit down and write a whole set of tunes myself and you know, kind of get that all together. It just takes so much work. So it's something that I have done in the past, something I maybe would do in the future. But for now I'm kind of letting that one, you know, the the jazz side of things. I'm just doing the big bands and then letting the creativity come out in falls. Wow, that sounds awesome. So I've got to ask you, did you ever come to Mount Gambia for generations in jazz? Yes. As Gambia tragic I still am I've you know, I forced my school to let me take my big band there. That was like, now Gambia was a life that was I lived for me, you know, that early weekend, in May, every year, I went to Wellesley College, which was you know, a big kind of big band school, my dad actually took the band there. So it was all we ever talked about from like, you know, about October through to May everything was about generations in jazz and you know, going into there and getting like just getting exposed to all those amazing music shows on the stage was amazing. And then going back as an as an adult and as a teacher has been really lovely as well and kind of seeing it change and into something completely different now. It's been really nice to be part of that and share that with my students now and see them experience that joy. Pretty cool. It's growing so much. I remember mom taking me when we were kids, when they used to be Girl, I think her name was Kelly. And she played saxophone on on her head Sunday. And I remember seeing her play. We're only at this Robert Hillman Theatre, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but it's basically your normal size data. Yeah. And now it's grown to I don't know how many 1000s people, it's the biggest tent in the southern hemisphere. Like all this, it's gone bonkers. And it's so wonderful. We've missed a couple of years. I remember seeing Kelly early as well, I've played in a lot of women's section with her since she's one of the ways to play with the mice. So if you ever see her, tell her I remember seeing it when I was a little girl, I would have only been probably, I don't know, to 1213, maybe maybe a bit older. But yeah. It's such a generational thing. And my whole family are involved, you know, because my dad took the Wesley guy and now takes the St. Leonard's band, my sister was taking the law, the whole band, to just schools in Melbourne, my younger sister was taking the band from Caulfield, like it was you know, we had all of us there, my uncle was volunteering there. So when you you know, every year we get a family photo at generations in jazz, and just all have a laugh about the fact that the whole family is still there, we just can't get away from it. Just let me speak for union come together in my life, it's a real shame that hasn't been able to happen the past couple of years you been able to do any teaching during COVID, like you're you locked down in, in Melbourne, it's great. Because I've been basically I've been filling in for the girl that was filling in for me at the school, so I I've been able to, you know, do my teaching, go back look, after Sam come back, you know, do another class go back and kind of share those duties, which has been really nice. It's actually been quite handy for me in terms of the thing locked in. And, you know, I've got all my resources from last year. And I'm probably one of the few teachers who actually quite enjoys online teaching, I love the challenge of it, you know, having to find different ways to present it and different ways to engage students using the technology. And it's just incredible how much we can do from home, you know? Yeah, I've been doing a fair bit of teaching from there. And then all these other little bits and pieces of you know, everyone's getting into the lockdown recordings again. So I did one last week, I think, for all day for it, which is like a kid's band slash jazz band, which is pretty fun. Falls, we're doing another one this week. We were doing one every couple of weeks back last year, which was very fun. So you know, it's, it's kind of, it's nice to do things in a different way and just change it up a bit. So I like looking at the positives here. And you know, just different sets a different way of living, but I kind of like it. My partner and I were supposed to get married last year, and then we're going we're gonna go on a great European adventure. We put all this cash aside, we've been saving our butts off to, to do all of that. And none of it happened. So and then I was getting maternity leave. And he's, he's kind of back at work now. So we've been lucky throughout all of it that we haven't had to struggle with gigs being canceled and stuff. I mean, we've lost plenty of money. But yeah, it's we've been thought more fortunate than others. So you mentioned Sam then so tell me about your little person. Sorry, my little person he's about is just about 10 months old. He is the absolute life of my life is the best thing that's ever happened. You know, I was very happy and very fulfilled person before having a kid. But I always knew I wanted a baby. I always not always know so I was terrified of children until I was about 23. And then I actually looked after one of my trumpet idols Ingrid Jensen in New York. I actually helped babysit her baby a few times just through you know, mutual friends and I was there and I didn't have a job and ended up kind of nannying for a couple of weeks. And I was like, actually, I love children. This is amazing. And from then on, it was like, Alright, this is something I want to do in life. So then, yeah, being with my wonderful partner, Carlo. I mean, we knew each other back when I was probably 1718 Just hanging out in the music crowds because he's a saxophone and woodwind player. He does all the jazz gigs and stuff but more so now he does in musical theater. So he plays for all Big shows. So we just knew each other through mutual friends for years and years, and then actually, jokingly got engaged about 10 years ago, I called the bouquet and I said, I'll call I don't have anyone to marry. And he said, Don't worry about it, I'll marry you. And I know, okay, and then, you know, like another, like, five or so years down the track. We ended up, you know, finding each other and going, Oh, this is a pretty cool little thing. And, you know, as things went along, and you know, from the start, I was like, I want to have kids just so, you know, this is a thing, and we were both very, you know, by very happy with that path. And then yeah, we kind of decided to, you know, not stop trying, but you know, not prevent anything and just see what happens, just throw caution to the wind. And, you know, lo and behold it a year and a half later, little Sam came into the world. So we found out we were pregnant, just at the very start of COVID. So it was kind of pretty scary times. And, you know, it was a bit of a surprise, because like, yeah, we've been going along for however long and going okay, like, you know, it's not gonna happen yet. That's all right. And we've been planning our wedding. So at the start of last year, we actually went, you know, what, maybe this year isn't a good time, maybe we should like, wait a little bit longer. And you know, until the timings a bit better. And as soon as we said that, of course. They got me pregnant. And yeah, then had, you know, nine months later, we had little Sam and so he's, you know, he's crawling now he's walking. Now he talks a lot like his mum. And like his dad, really. But he looks like me. So he's, he's good. Because of the pregnancy found out on the first of March, which, you know, thinking back to the timeline, that was kind of when things were starting to creep out of China and into other countries. It hadn't quite come to Australia yet. There was only maybe a couple weeks shy of that. But it was on its way. I remember coming out of staff briefing in the morning. So I was working. At the time, I was working full time as a head of Performing Arts. And I was also studying part time, 20 hours a week and doing gigs as well. So I was pretty busy. And I just I just handed in an assignment on the day, we found out I'd handed in my second last assignment, so I was exhausted. And we came out of a briefing like the next day and, you know, our, our principal and said to us, Look, we have to start being really careful, this thing is going to come to us, it's going to get very serious. And I was walking with a colleague and she said, Oh man, my my sister in law's pregnant, how much would it suck to be pregnant right now, and I just started bawling my eyes out on my way to my house drove off is just cry. Because I just thought, this is such an unknown. We don't know what this thing is. We don't know what it means for pregnancy for you know, an unborn baby, for a young baby, we just don't know. And so it was a pretty challenging time, mentally and emotionally. You know, and then in the weeks to come, you know, I had a lot of gigs that I just, I was so scared of what would happen if I got COVID. And it turned into almost like an anxiety about you know, if I get COVID The baby's not going to be okay. So I had to cancel geeks, but I couldn't tell anyone I had to I was working from home for school well before anybody else was, but I couldn't tell anyone why I couldn't come in from meetings. I couldn't come in, you know, it was all very, like, keep me away from everyone. And my principal was really supportive of that. But I think my pregnancy was probably the worst kept secret in Melbourne. Everyone just just looked at me when I okay. Yeah, we figure why you can't come in, but nobody can say anything. Yeah, so it was tricky, because we had to like, you know, keep up pretenses of I've just got a pre existing condition, but everyone knew exactly what was going on. So yeah, you know, then moving along, it was it was tricky, kind of going through and not being able to have family around during the lock downs. I mean, my My poor mom, you know, didn't really get to see me pregnant very much. I just send her photos all the time. And that was that was really tough for her as well to because she lives all the way over the other side of town. There was no way we could even catch up for walks or anything like my sisters live close, Carlos family live close, but my parents live quite far away. And so just not getting to see them. I think I didn't see my dad through the whole or maybe once through the whole pregnancy. It was really tough and definitely took it out. I'll emotionally and in, played on those anxieties a lot. And then I've got a bit sick later on in the pregnancy I got had gestational diabetes, which was an it was a late diagnosis, and I had to be admitted to hospital. And it was all of these things, and it kind of all just snowballed. And, you know, it was, yeah, by the time he came, I was ready to not be pregnant anymore. But then at the same time, you kind of look back and you go, you get to those last few days, and you go, Oh, I kind of like him being in there. And like feeling the cakes, and I like, you know, not having a baby to look after 24 hours a day just yet, you know. But yeah, we ended up ended up getting induced because of the gestational diabetes. And they thought that he was already four kilos at 36 weeks old, or 36 weeks gestation. So they were like, We need to get this child out. Otherwise, he's going to destroy, he did anything. He destroyed me coming out, they had to use the forceps. And, you know, he was he was in all kinds of all kinds of stress and whatnot, but still managed to have a vaginal delivery, which was wonderful. And had the epidural already. So I was having an absolute ball in that room. I just like, I got in there. And I was like, put this thing in my back auto kit as early as possible. I just don't want to feel a thing. And I'll tell you what, we were sitting there. We had disco lights going. We had like people on FaceTime. We were playing games, we're watching TV, we're hanging out chatting a few naps, by the time you just like, ah, be cool, that's fine. It's great, I would highly recommend doing it. I want to ask you, I have never played a winning strip. I'm a singer. So I struggled a lot when I was pregnant, breathing and getting the air in the diaphragm. Really? Was that an issue for you like physically being able to play? Absolutely. I mean, I think in some ways, I'm kind of grateful for having been in lockdown for a lot of the pregnancy, especially the lighter part for that reason, because I didn't ever have to push myself to a point where I went, No, I can't do this anymore. Because all I was doing was, like I said, like ISO recording, it's kind of thing. And so I could do as many tapes of them as I needed, I could do them in a few shots. And I was like if you say that the law schools recording, I had call it pregnant Tammy and continue to be like I mean, it was hard enough, just going for a walk around the block, let alone getting enough air to play the trumpet. So I think if if I hadn't been in normal life trying to do that, I think there probably would have come a point where I just would have had to go no more. So it's kind of nice that I never had to make that decision and and push it to that point. I just got to maybe 30 about 34 weeks and I just mind you this column I can't do anymore. That's fine. I've gotten up I don't need to I was still playing for work up until that stage just playing along with my students and whatnot. But yeah, definitely the breathing thing is hard. Luckily, you know, as soon as the baby's gone, like that all goes you know, your organs move back into place, and it's like they're so similar singing and brass playing. It's all about the diaphragm and all about the, you know, the way that you use it air and the speed of the air and everything just would be really hard. But I've read about people playing trumpet up until 3839 weeks, you know, I think it can happen, but I think those people are very special. I first came across you on the motherlode website. And you've done this amazing article and infographic about the challenges of pumping while you're digging, and I just related to that instantly, and I was like, oh my god, I get this totally I understand. I've pumped in some wacky places and some weed times and I thought, This is wonderful. Someone's actually done something about it. So tell us how that came about. Well, I'm trying to do something about it. You know, it's it's such it's probably the biggest challenge I've faced as a parent. Which sounds like it sounds so trivial, but people don't understand how hard it is and how demoralizing it is to spend all of your break sitting in dingy toilet stall, trying to keep all your beautifully sterilized equipment still sterile when you know the pits all over the floor. And it's like, it's really tough. It kind of came about I have when so when I was pregnant through lockdown, I had to really seek out some opportunities to talk to people who are also pregnant. And it just so happened that there were seven other female users in Melbourne, who I knew who were also pregnant. And like so one kind of emailed me and then said, Hey, Maddie, I saw you're expecting a baby. So a week. And then another one that hey, Maddie, yeah, we're also pregnant. All right, like, and so it just kind of, they all started writing to me, and I went, Wait a second, maybe we could turn this into a group. So we started our, our, what do we call it music moms group. And it was a, like a Facebook Messenger group, pregnancy support group, we do zooms kind of every week or two, and just talk about what was going on how we were feeling shared, you know, experiences of pregnancy, all of our fears about, you know, post, you know, giving birth and what that would look like, how we were going, you know, everything and it was just the most beautiful group, and they still are the most beautiful group of humans who just kind of pump each other up and keep each other going. And so now it's turned into from a pregnancy group, everyone's now had their babies, and it's a, it's a, you know, parents group, and we catch up, you know, pretty locked down, we we catch up every so often we get our Barb's together, they have a play, we have a talk or a drink, or beer or whatever we can do. All the guys come along, as well. They're mostly musicians, as well. And so it's turned into this amazing kind of support group. So when I was, you know, early on, when doing lots of gigs, through that kind of, you know, summer, you know, February, March, April, May season when things were really busy. And I was going out, you know, two, maybe three nights a week, and, you know, pumping in all kinds of places. And it was just feeling so hard. I mean, I got to the point of wanting to either give up and just, you know, go with formula, or, you know, if I'm doing it felt overwhelming, you know, having to take all of the equipment, you know, you're in these, you know, you're in a nice dress for the gig and you have to get the whole dress off, you have to put everything on you have to strap the things in, you have to plug them in, you have to turn the thing on, then you have to sit there for 15 minutes, then you have to wash everything. And then you have to get all back into your little box and into the bag. And the whole process takes the entire break if not longer. And I just so I'd be writing to my news. Oman's groups just being like, guys, is anyone else finding this really hard? And it was it was a shared experience that we were all going? How, like, how can we make this any better? How can we then it's so hard to, you know, keep pumping and keep doing this in the way that we're doing it. Some of the mums are amazing. And they will just like pull out all their gear and pump in front of anyone and sit there in the front row during the set break or whatever, and do it for me. I couldn't I couldn't get across. I ran having like literally having my nipples out in front of people. I'm very happy breastfeeding in front of people because there's a baby's head there, you know, but pumping feels a lot more exposed. And so I tried to think about how we could possibly just inform people of what you know what, what it is why it's important how they can make it easier. I was inspired by a Linda chintzy, who's in our museum moms group. She's going back. She's the leading Moulin Rouge. And she was saying you know that the the company have made all these amazing accommodations. She's got a five month old, I think I'm really sorry, forgot that wrong. But she's got a little Holly rose. And they've made all of these accommodations to make sure that she can keep pumping and have Holly there to feed and have her partner there to bring her in and all of that. And I thought, you know if they can make those accommodations, maybe other people can do. So I was doing I did three gigs for four gigs for the mid summer festival in Melbourne. And I just put it out there and I just wrote to the people who are organizing the gig and said, Hey, I'm a breastfeeding mom. Here's some things that would be really good if I could have my own room to pump in or just a private room with a door that I could just say to people hey, I'm going into pump right now. You know if I could have a fridge to store the milk in if I could have access to a sink so these are just all the things that the the IDA or the you know, Fair Work actually say that you need to have in your workplace, but obviously it's harder when your work pace changes every week. And you know what? They came back and they said yes, and they they gave me those things and I went ah But this is possible. It's not always possible. But it is possible a lot of the time for people to actually organize these things. And they were beautiful about it. They had my name on the door and they have my partner's name. They'd put everything in there that I could possibly need. And I just, I thought, let's try and make this people know that they can ask for these things. And so I started to become more vocal about it. And then, using those new moms groups, I actually workshopped and found out what they were finding hard, what their suggestions are that we could put into it and came up with this infographic that basically just says, Here, here's a bunch of things you can do. Firstly, here's why it's important, we need to keep our milk supply up. And to do that, you have to pump every three to four hours, we need to be able to have a space to do it, it takes 25 minutes, at least, you know. And so here's a list of things that you can do as a bandleader, as a venue manager, to make sure that people who are pumping or breastfeeding can feel comfortable to do it at your venue or at your gig. And the the response when I put it out to Facebook was just amazing. Like I was overwhelmed, I thought a few people would sit and be like, oh, cool, that's great. I might borrow that and show it to some people like it got shared over to New Zealand, it got shared all around Melbourne and, and a bunch of different places. And I think people have really taken it on board. I know a lot of people that I work with have been like, you know, we're going into a set and the set time has been changed. They've been like, hey, Maddie, if you need to leave early to go and pump, you know, that's fine, but set time has changed. Just leave whenever you have to. So they're making those accommodations. I mean, I really do, but it's nice to just be considered in that way and know that we have the option to like, hey, if I really need to park right now I can just walk off and go kind of thing. So it's it's been quite a journey and then during the motherlode motherlode interview was amazing as well, Georgia fields is incredible. And you know, made it all sounds so lovely and succinct or my you know, ramblings but it's, it's been a real journey. And I kind of coming over the other side of it now, you know, being 10 months old. You know, he's he's getting to the stage where he only has like, a few feeds a day. And it's like, wow, I survived that I survived that having to pump and having to feed every three hours, when those days where I was out at a gig out of town, and I was, you know, out of the house for 12 hours. It's like, it's a lot. And I feel quite, I feel quite proud of myself and all the other moms that have done that and been through it and made it you know, made it work. Yeah, absolutely. No good on you. I was so impressed when I saw it. And it probably I can think of times when it would have come in really handy because I, I guess I never thought to ask it was never it never occurred to me that that I could ask it was just like, well, this is your thing. So you need to sort it out. I never sort of thought I never Yeah, it just never occurred to me. So well done you round of applause. On the interview with the motherlode, you said something like times when you've been pumping in a really yucky toilet stall and, you know, close to tears, and you wondered, was it worth it? Probably not at that moment, but later did you sort of you obviously thought that it was because you kept going it was really important to you to be able to maintain that milk supply for your baby. But also, you know, it was important for you to keep playing and to to keep that part of your life really active as well. Absolutely. I, I, I know that I'm a better mom, because I have my music as well. I really feel that deep down in my soul that they're having the music especially, you know, and like doing the corporate gigs and everything, it's a bit of fun, you get a bit of money, it's pretty good. But they're things like falls and those jazz gigs that really feed my soul. I come back home and I'm completely revitalized as a parent, you know, getting that time away from Sam, who is the most important and the most beautiful thing in my whole entire world. But getting the time away from him, actually makes me appreciate him so much more. I mean, I was he was six weeks old when I did my first recording session back. And they were I was out of the house for maybe eight hours. I mean, I hadn't been away from him for that long, obviously. And it was you know, I thought I would really struggle. But it was it was an amazing recording session, syncing south with falls and I came home and I just felt I felt like myself again. After six weeks of being completely attached to this small human and just being at his whim, whatever he needed. He needed. Get on that moment. And, you know, I got to go away, step away from it and come back. And I was so grateful for that time. And I'm also so grateful that my amazing partner Carlo, you know, does everything he's, he's not scared and looking after the baby out or you know, and he's been hands on from the very start. I mean, because there was no theater, you know, for the first eight months of Sam's life Carlo has been with us, aside from his teaching pretty much full time. So we've been able to really manage that between the two of us. But yeah, they're having the gigs to go to, I think keeps me sane. You know, before I went back to teaching, it was the thing that kind of made me feel like me again. And I think that's so important for, for creative parents to still have those things I, I was never going to put down my trumpet and not play as a parent. And also, I'm a really stubborn human being. And if someone tells me like, Oh, you're not going to want to play much once here, once you have your baby, you're going to want to just stay home. I was like, I heard shorts your show. Cool. Cool. Cool. All right, watch me go. And so now I'm gonna be a bit more determined than before, I think I've been practicing even more than I was, before I had a baby, because I'm just like, You know what, I want to go out there and show people that being a mum. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mum does not stop you from being an amazing musician, and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so all your backup gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm paying better than I was beforehand, so that you've put so much effort into, like all the background, they just see you at the gig, they haven't seen you prepare everything at home, have the milk ready, you know, do everything you need to do to make sure you can do this gig, because the similar thing happened to me. I did my first gig that we did the when he was seven weeks old. And same thing someone said to me, oh, where's your baby? And I was just like, if you knew what I have, I've moved heaven and earth to make this day possible. So I was playing up at Coonawarra, which is about an hour away. And I was there for about five hours. So I was away from him for a while. thought you've got no idea. I That's my that is my pet peeve. And people ask it in a nice way. And they ask it with the most like sincerity and they go, oh, where's the baby? And that's one question that I just can't stand because it just kind of grates on me because it makes you feel like, oh, I should be looking after, should I be looking after the baby, we're like, you know, it's like the babies with his dad, he's fine. You've done so much to be able to, you know, go into a gig now isn't just like you know, or you've done your practice on the days before you just you know, get your tribe and walk out the door. Going to a gig now means scheduling time in for practice every day leading up to it to make sure that you're on top of it, which I reckon I'm more on top of my gigs now because I have to schedule things I have to make that time doing all the pumping, getting the bottles ready, getting the food ready, making sure the babysitters sorted, making sure everyone knows where everything is, you know, what's the bedtime routine? You know, have I fed the kid now? Should I feed him right before I go? It's such a different thing now. And, and for people to be questioning that and be like, oh, where's the baby? It's something that really great for me. Maybe I should make another infographic about not asking that question. I think I just I'm very passionate about you know, I am you know, Loki quite a feminist. And one of the things that really bugs me is, you know, when I think about would people ask a dad about that? Would they say do you know, is their dad guilt? Or, you know, Dad comes into a gig gig or goes to work and someone says, oh, where's your baby? That doesn't happen, you know? Or someone says, Oh, you're back getting already Wow, that's amazing, like, hold on you. That just doesn't happen. And so you know, the mom guilt thing. I think dad should be feeling it just as much and I'm lucky enough that my partner feels a lot of dad guilt. He comes home, you know, when he goes out to work and he calls me and he says, Can you send me a photo? I miss him? You know? And I think that the the feeling that it should be all on mums to be there and to be looking after everything. It's not fair. It's not equitable. Having said that, you know, we do of course, we miss our kids. Like, I miss Sam so much when I go out to a gig, I do miss him and I look at photos and I show everyone photos. You know, I miss him and I go, Oh, but no part of me ever feels like oh, I should be at home. It's not fair to him, because it wouldn't be fair to him if I was at home all the time, and I was a sad person because of it. And so that's why I just think you've got to look at the balance of things. Yeah, he's gonna miss me for a few hours, but I'm going to be a better mom because of it. And I really, truly believe that making, like doing the work that we do anything that makes you feel happy and passionate, you know, that makes you a better person and a better parent. And so you can't feel guilty for taking that time. And I really do I look at music completely differently. Now, you know, when I go out to do my gigs, it's not like, we're gonna go do a gig. Now it's like, this is my time, this is my time to do something that makes me feel really good, and nourishes my soul. And that's going to make me feel better about being at home. So, I don't know, if I answered the question at all, but my take on mom guilt, you know, don't feel it just don't cuz we're allowed to go out and do these things to our souls to, it's so important. I think moms often get put in until a man box. And people go, you should be looking after your kid, you know, you shouldn't be doing things for yourself. And that's that, that kind of thrown on my heart, like, you know, we completely surrender were expected to completely surrender everything about ourselves to be apparent. But it's just not feasible in the long run, if you want to be a happy and whole person. I am a trumpet player. And I'm passionate about that. I'm a music teacher. And I'm very passionate about that, too. And I'm a mom, and I'm very passionate about that. And I can still be all of those three things. And they don't have to, I mean, they're going to impact each other. Of course they are, but they don't have to cancel each other out. You can't only be one of those. I mean, you don't have to just be one of those things. And, you know, I think keeping my identity has, like I said earlier, it's kept me sane, it's it kept me feeling like parenting is the most amazing thing on earth. And it truly is. Because I've been able to keep that part of myself and share with Sam to like, he's coming out to a bunch of gigs. He's got his little headphones on. I think the first thing the first gig he came out to potentially was New Year's Eve, and myself and Carlo were playing together. So my mom and my stepdad came along and held sat there, and he watched us play. And he of course, would have had no idea was going on because he was only like eight weeks old. But playing for Sam felt amazing. It just felt like a completely different experience to be able to share my craft with him, you know. And so I want that I want him to grow up knowing that that's a part of me, and also having that be a part of him and want him to be proud of me to I want him to see me on stage and see his dad on stage and go, Hey, that's, that's my mom. That's my dad, how cool is that? I just really want him to think I'm cool. That's what? Well, my musicians as well. So you know, I always saw them on stage. And it was just, I was so proud. I thought they were the coolest people ever. I was like, Oh my gosh, look at that singing and dancing around. It's so cool. And, you know, I just think it's such an amazing thing for kids to grow up seeing their parents, you know, pursuing their like, the things that make them happy and doing it publicly as well as even better. Did it surprise you? You know, there's been so much change in terms of how breastfeeding has been accepted over the years. It's taken, you know, it's taken a while. But breastfeeding is commonly accepted pretty much everywhere now. Even if it might annoy someone. But Did it surprise you then that the pumping of the breast milk was just no one had any idea about it? It? It surprised me because I didn't know anything about it. Yeah. So I had Sam and I like I knew about breast pumps. And I knew that you you could pump milk so that you can feed them from a bottle. That's all I knew. I didn't know about maintaining supply I didn't know about you know the supply and demand part of breastfeeding. I just thought the milk was always there and you just get it out when you want it kind of thing. And so finding out that this would be part of you know, leaving the house and leaving Sam alone was that I'd have to be doing this pumping. It was actually quite upsetting. Because you know, when I started the pump, I was like wow, this is pretty intense. It takes a lot of effort to Get everything on. And then you know, when I first started pumping, nothing was coming out. And so I really had to work on relaxing and you know, looking at pictures of Sam to try and you know, get the letdown happening. And then getting out and talking to people and finding out then that they knew nothing about it too, I actually wasn't surprised that they knew nothing, because I knew nothing about it. I'd never seen somebody pump before. I'd never talked to people about pumping before. So me being the loudmouth. I am, I went out and started telling everyone all about it, I get to a gig and be like, right, guys, I need to pump it this time. I need to pump it this time. Here's why I need to do it. You want to see the equipment? Look, here's some of my milk. Isn't this amazing? Like, how cool was the human body? And you know, a lot of people just said, Wow, I had no idea. But it didn't surprise me because neither did I. It's not really talked about everyone knows about breastfeeding. But not everyone knows about the pumping side of it. You know, or Yeah, it's, it's kind of it almost feels like it's a bit taboo. It's in the background, it's things that people don't see. And, you know, I've got a great friend of mine who had to exclusively pump for six months. And she said, by the end, she'd just walk around wearing a pumpkin no matter who was around because you just have to when you when you're exclusively pumping every three hours, it just takes up so much of your time and so much of your life. So it'd be great for that to become a little bit more visible. And that was part of you know, me getting this out there was trying to help people make it feel more normal. Hmm. Yeah, that's great. When you did find out about the effort that was involved, did you ever have a moment where you just thought, Oh, it's just it's too much. I just did you ever have that moment where you thought now I can't do it. Like, it would have only been fleeting moments, I think, once I was pumping at and no human being to this venue in Melbourne, the night cat, it's known as one of like, the dingy highest venues, but also super fun. But you know, those are the nightcap toilets. So the way I used to go as a 17 year old when I was too drunk to like, you know, open a door and be like, you know, and I was pumping in there and sitting on the thing and just going, Oh, I can't touch anything. And I was like, this sucks. This sucks. Like, should I just do formula, but I really, I really just wanted to, and it was almost like a challenge within myself. I just wanted to see how long I could exclusively feed for and, you know, I just felt I feel so privileged that I was able to breastfeed, and not everyone can, you know, for medical reasons for you know, mental reasons, mental health reasons, there are so many people that just can't do it. And I you know, it came so easy to me, I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to take this for granted. It's amazing that I can give my kid the very best nutrition in the whole world. For him. There's nothing better than breast milk. I'm gonna make the most of this. And so I you know, I had my moments of wanting to give up, but they were fleeting. And you know, I kept going with it. And I'm still going with it now I still periods about, Gosh, about six times a day at 10 months old, which is a lot. But you know, we just do it. And it's, I've not ever been, you know, some people. You know, they say I love breastfeeding so much like it's a really beautiful bond between me and my baby. I'm not one of those people. I don't know why I didn't get that gene that was like, Oh, this is so beautiful and loving. I do it because it's easy and because it nourishes him and you know there are bits of it that I like it's just a lot easier mostly. You know, but we've we've kept going and I'm really glad that I did. Like you don't yeah. There's a Fire Island article on the motherlode of he's sitting on your lap, got the trumpet and it's absolutely beautiful. Well, my partner's in that photo as well. He was he was filling in with full so the two of us were at rehearsal. We were like What are we going to do we take the kid with us we put on his little headphones and he came into rehearsal. It was actually it was a pretty special moment for him to be you know, for my my whole family to be there with my full family. It was it was really lovely. And that's that photo is actually you know, the first one on social media of him is we haven't put any photos on but that just felt so special. We need it to share it. It is lovely to be able to continue that family tradition like your parents involved in their you and involving your son I think that's just beautiful, musics awesome. Always been such a such a positive thing in my world in every way possible that it just it feels like something that I want him to experience as well not necessarily to become a, you know, not to become a professional musician, but just to be able to have all of those amazing social skills that come from working in a team, you know, the the cognitive skills that come from learning music, and just the joy that comes from making music. I mean, if if you can, if you can do it, why wouldn't you? Why would you share that with your family around the piano when we were kids and dad would be playing, playing songs to us. And we just thought it was the most amazing thing ever. And I looked back at that, and I go, I'm so glad that we were introduced to music at such a young age and given the option and it was always an option, but we were given the option to pursue it in whatever way we wanted to. And we all ended up as brass players doing music degrees. Sorry, dad, he wanted doctors and lawyers. So he started the the trend of the brass in your family. Then my oldest sister started on the trombone. And then I did the trumpet. I'm the middle one. And then the younger one started on the corner as well. But I actually when I was in about year seven, I got the album's which is like the trumpet book. It's the book, you know. And I sat down and tried to play some of it with my poor little sister who was only in grade four at the time going, oh my god, I can't play there's nothing you just gotta you just play it you just do it like that. I wasn't a very good teacher then clearly. And the next day she put down a trumpet never picked it up again and picked up the trombone instead. I'm not playing the trumpet anymore, but it made me feel bad about it. Find matches a trombone player. Scottish philosopher have a lot of guilt about that. You talked about mom guilt. I've got sister guilt. Very good at the trombone now though, so it's okay. Maybe it was meant to be maybe that was her path in life you just had to guide her slightly she doesn't usually follow in my footsteps so you had to try other ones. Also want to ask you you said before about you, your muse Imams? Did you find because you were friends before you had children? Did you find them? Did you find that that there was little comparison with your muse? Oh mums group. Absolutely like that the museum moms group is super supportive. Everyone, you know, it's very real, we write about all of our challenges, you know, we write about all the really bad things, and we tell each other about the good things too. And everybody is like, there's no comparison, there's no, you know, oh, my, my child seems better than yours. Otherwise, I'd be losing pretty bad. I'm very, very high, you like it, you're right, like being already being friends. I mean, some of the a couple of the girls in the group, you know, I didn't know so well beforehand. And now we're also close, we, you know, text pretty much daily and just build each other up and just make each other feel like everything's okay. And everything's going to be okay. And I'm really lucky. Absolutely. My local parents group, there's a couple of girls in there who have become, you know, some of my closest friends, you know, and we, we really look after each other as well, you know, or living on the same street and, you know, supporting each other in that way too. So I think you can get lucky with the people you end up with, you can get unlucky, it just really depends. And I've had absolutely lucked out in finding, I even have a third mother's group. Another one. Everyone's just really amazing and supportive, and no one ever makes me feel like what my child is doing isn't okay. And I think that's such an important part of being, I think, especially among, you know, because we tend to be the ones kind of, you know, and this is generalizing, and it's not in every situation depends on your circumstances and the set of parents and whatnot. But we do tend to be the ones who kind of know where the milestones are meant to be. And we're the ones waking up generally every night if we're breastfeeding all through the night to feed the baby. So we tend to be the ones that end up getting sucked into those comparisons and those kind of competitions. And I think just being really mindful of making other people a never feel bad about what their child can or can't do. That be not, you know, not saying my child can do this to try and you know, show off but to be like, Hey, let's all rejoice in this together, my child can do this what new, you know, what is your child during this week that's really amazing and really special. Because I think it can turn into a bit of a competition. And that's, that makes me sad. But I'm so grateful that I ended up with all people around me who are just beautiful, and supportive and amazing, and I love them all so much. Life after baby really has made me kind of consider how much free time I had beforehand, even though I was working, like I was doing like 70 hour weeks, and still getting to the gym three or four times a week and still had free time outside of that. And now it's kind of like, probably the biggest surprise has been just how time consuming a child is, you know, I kind of thought you put them down for a nap. And then they'd sleep for a couple of hours and you get stuff done. And then you come back to them. And my child, beautiful Sam, he is the most incredible child on the world does not like sleep, I think he's allergic to sleep. So you know, his naps are sometimes only 15 minutes. You know, if we get really lucky, it's an hour, it really, really lucky. I think once or twice, he's done an hour and a half on his own. And I think, you know, the big thing as a musician has had to be prioritizing and scheduling. So sometimes now I have to practice the trumpet with a mute in at 11:30pm. Because that's the only time I get to do it. And I think, you know, everyone said to me beforehand, like you, you you weren't even know what you used to do with all your free time. And I was like, Dude, I'm pretty busy. Like, I know what it feels like to not have free time. Now after having a kid it's like, I know what it feels like to never have a moment to yourself. Because literally now any. And I say literally in the actual way it was meant to be used. If I have free time I'm off into the studio to practice. If he actually goes down for a nap, it's practice time. And so now I pretty much don't ever have any time to myself without the horn on my face. And that's been that's been a bit of a shock to me. I think, you know, I would I would have loved to know that beforehand that it really is that intense. And I'm sure it will get easier as we go along. And as he gets older, you know that then if we add another one to the mix, we go through the whole thing again, and then it's even more chaotic, I'm sure. But yeah, I think that's probably been one of the most surprising things as a as an artist and a mum, kind of just how much I need to use any little scrap of free time to make sure that I can still maintain my craft. Yeah, when I used to sit down and do half an hour of practice, I reckon probably 20 minutes of that was like looking on Facebook or, you know, rearranging my books or, you know, playing with a little thing on the trumpet. Now, if I sit down to practice for half an hour, I am practicing hard for half an hour, because I know that there's not going to be another half hour or if there is that I've got to use that half hour really well, you know. So it really does change the way you kind of focus and knuckle down things because there's just no, there's no room for faffing. You just can't. Alright, yeah, laughing is faffing is canceled the moment that child comes out of you. Sometimes my sisters come over to look after Sam just so I can go and practice if I'm having a particularly hard day they live close, which is lucky. But I'll just be like, Hey, guys, I haven't been able to get anything done today. And they will just come over, they'll sit with them. You know, for an hour or two, I'll get some washing done, I'll jump in the studio or have a shower or whatever it is and, and having that support has made it all possible. You know, you just need people you need, you know, you need a village to make it all work. I'm so lucky that I have an amazing village around me. You know, and I know it would be harder for people that don't and I know of people who don't have family here and it's bloody hard. And I just I don't know how they do it. You know, single parents, I am absolutely in awe of anybody who raises a child alone. I can't even fathom how hard that would be. You know, so I'm very privileged to be able to make it work. And I feel I feel very lucky for that. So there's some really exciting stuff coming up with falls. Hopefully we'll be doing a little mini east coast to the start of October may or may not happen. But then also we've got a gig in Maine in in mid October and another one in Brunswick, I think in November. So that will be very fun. Jazz lab orchestra is about to do recording for a new album, and they play at the jazz lab every month as well. COVID permitting. We've lost our first yard originally our last few unfortunately. But yeah, that's the main things coming up. They get on board. Madison, I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you. It has been so much fun. You've given me lots of laughs today. All the best with your full ski and well done again for opening people's eyes to the challenges of pumping and returning to gigs. So yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been an absolute pleasure to be on the show. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet

Julia Reader South Australian water colour and acrylic artist and art educator S1 Ep21 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Julia Reader is a watercolour and acrylic artist, an art educator from Mount Gambier South Australia, and a mum of one. ​ Coming from a background in graphic design, Julia is a firm believer in following your heart, being open to new opportunities and that everything happens at the right time. ​ We chat about how her perfectionist trait stifled her creativity, how she used her art as a therapy tool to work through her control issues, letting go of your expectations, not just in art but in life, and allowing mums feel all the feelings they are experiencing, good and bad, without judgement. ​ **This episode contains discussion around infertility, post natal depression and panic attacks** ​ Connect with Julia on her website and instagram Julia's December Workshop details Follow along with The Portrait Project here ​ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ ​ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health and how children manifest in their heart. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music played, and a link to find the podcast on Instagram. Following music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone dig people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Julia reader. Julia is a watercolor and acrylic artist, graphic designer and art educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia, and a mom of one. Julia is a firm believer in following your heart being open to new opportunities, and that everything happens at the right time. We chat today about how her perfectionist traits stifled her creativity, how she used her art as a therapy tool to work through her control issues. Letting go of your expectations, not just in art, but in life, and allowing mums to feel all the feelings they're experiencing good and bad without judgment. This episode contains discussions around infertility, postnatal depression and panic attacks. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast Julia reader. Thanks so much for coming on, Julia. Thanks for having me, Allison. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Another hometown assets, which I'm really excited to chat to you. You you're a painter, and do drawing as well. What what sort of mediums do you work with mainly? So I primarily work with watercolor? I have been dabbling in a bit of acrylic. They're the main things that I use. Yeah. Obviously, watercolor for most, I think that's probably what I'm probably most known for. But yeah, like, I really love acrylic, too, because it's sort of like the polar opposite to watercolor, you can paint over things if you stuff them up. But with watercolor, it's not so much the same. So in that respect there, like almost two completely different ways of working. And I like to challenge myself sort of at both ends of the spectrum. Yeah, right. So how did you first get into painting? That's a really good question. I teach watercolor classes. And I say to people that I can never actually remember the first day, or the first time that I picked up a paintbrush with watercolor and started painting. Yeah, I do remember doing a like a little watercolor painting for an exhibition. And I was invited to be part of an exhibition for a local group called the soul sisters collective, which is actually a group that I'm now a part of. But I yeah, I remember doing this little watercolor painting, I remember thinking that it was absolutely terrible. But it was what I did. And I was willing to frame it and put it up on the wall. And then there was probably like, a few years after that, that I didn't touch anything watercolor related. And then yeah, somehow I fell back into it. And I really have no idea how it started. I'd like I can't even tell you whether I was at home or sitting at my office. But it was just something that really just evolved very naturally. You know, there was a lot of practicing a lot of watching YouTube, because I am self taught. So there was just really lots of watching videos, looking at how people used it. And then from there it was, I guess. Consistency is what I always say is like, it's the game changer for I think anything if we're consistent with something, then we will see the results. But yeah, it was just a case of yeah, just painting, you know, you might want to make just once a week and then as I started to sort of see an improvement and maybe had a little bit more time. I would paint a couple of times a week and then there was a couple of points where I was doing like a painting a day. And I think I think I started doing that when Jack was about Eating. No, he wasn't he, he was only 10 months old. And I looked back on it. And I just think like, that was just such a crazy thing for me to commit to. Actually, it was actually not a painting a day, it was a project called the 100 Day project. So it was 100 days of painting. And obviously, I didn't do it over 100 days, it probably went to like 150 days, I did 100 paintings. And I think I bombed out at about 75 with Jack, because it was just too much. And I was starting to get to a point where I was really not enjoying it as much. Because there was a lot of pressure for me to sort of put something out on my social media. But yeah, yeah, just a natural level of illusion, evolution sorry, where I just went from not really touching it to wanting to play paint with it all the time. Developing a really a real love for it. And I think that's just sort of where it's that love has led me to where I am today with watercolor in particular. Yeah. So you said what's kind of happening at the moment with you with the acrylics, you sort of discovered this new thing? And you're sort of learning and similar kind of, sort of pricing? So yeah, I think I mean, look, I've still got a huge amount to learn with watercolor like, I would never like, yeah, I guess I know that I've got so much to develop as far as watercolor goes, it's such a technical medium. But yeah, I found acrylic and acrylics, almost like the sort of playful thing that I can do on the side that still creative. And if, if I don't do it very well, I can literally paint over it. And I can start again. And let me tell you, I have got canvases here that have got like about five or six paintings that have been painted over, you know, so many times, and like there's even paintings that people have purchased from me recently. And they would have no idea that there's actually three paintings that they've actually purchased. Maybe one day if I ever get rich and famous, which is really not the intention. Maybe maybe those people one day will discover that there's like all these hidden artworks underneath the one that they purchased maybe acrylic is I just find it like it's sort of like reversible. So like if I if I do something wrong, I can literally let it dry and come back and paint over that section. watercolors just not you can't do that. So yeah, it's a little bit strange, I guess that you've got like these two different mediums that that work in two completely different ways. Yeah, I'm drawn to how each of them work individually. And I think there's some days where I feel like I want that challenge of watercolor. And then there's days when I feel like I just need the ease of acrylic. So but yeah, look, acrylics, definitely something that I enjoy. So I can see that that's probably something that I'll continue to do. And for me, the moment is just working out how I bring the two together. So that my body of work looks, I guess cohesive, obviously, because they're two different things. They look different. I can achieve different things with each medium. So I can do things with perhaps acrylic that I couldn't do with watercolor. So they sort of take on a life of their own. Yeah, that mentally for me at the moment is just working out how I can sort of bring the three together. And when somebody sees that particular work, they can say, oh, yeah, that's Julia's work. Whereas at the moment, I feel like there's probably a bit of a divide. So I'm just going through that at the moment trying to work out how to sort of gel the two. So yeah, when you say that, I think yeah, you've got definitely a recognizable watercolor style, like I think, certainly anyone local. And I mean, I'm not in the art world at all. So I'm not sure how, yeah, white things spread, but certainly anyone in the mound that would see that would go oh, that's Julius, which is really cool. Then quite a few of my walk can't quite get it around for it. So I've got my little collection of things. And then I've got my kids stuff behind me, which is, you know, a mishmash of stuff, but I love and don't look, I'm not showing you the other side because that's absolutely love because I can't draw I can't do that. I love having those sort of things around me. They sort of inspire me creatively create creatively and the other the other things that I do so yeah, thanks. You for being awesome at supporting me so going back to the beginning, you talked about the soul sisters collective when you created your first watercolor. So what sort of creating or work were you doing at that stage? So back then, and I'm just going to pull a year out, I think that was about 2015. It could have been it could have been a year earlier or so. So back then, my creativity was my graphic design. Right, that was really all it was at that point. I wasn't painting. Like I wasn't, yeah, I just wasn't doing anything other than graphic design at that point. And I was actually quite at that point, I was really fulfilled in my graphic design career, which is something that I'm like, I'm still doing it today. It's still of my business. But I think, yeah, I was just in need of something else. And that's sort of when the painting started to happen. But yeah, back in 2015, it was just, I was a graphic designer, I was friends with a lot of the people that were in the soul sisters collective, which are all born at the time were all, like, sole traders working for themselves all female in, in our Gambia. So yeah, it was a real honor to be able to join their exhibition, because like, I was really quiet. sort of been aware of all of those people, because they were all sort of doing this business for themselves. And at that point in time, I never saw myself owning my own business. So yeah, it was really lovely to be able to join them. But like I was highly critical of the work that I put out. Obviously, I wasn't, I wouldn't have called myself a painter or anything at that point. I was literally just dabbling in this watercolor that I must have found somewhere because I can't even I don't even think I probably have the original watercolor that I was using on that particular painting. And yeah, just really highly critical of what I did. I've still got hanging on my wall here, so it can't be that bad. Yeah, at the time, I was just really honored to be a part of the exhibition. But I was also like, yeah, not not loving anything that I did at that point. So yeah. Sort of reaching back in your graphic design, how did you get into that? Was that something you've did at school, or you've always been sort of into that sort of stuff? Yeah, I've always been quite creative. Even as a child. I, I've always gravitated towards the arts. I remember having a science teacher who just used to tell me that I was not going to get anywhere with art. And I should just apply myself in his science lessons, because this is where it was at. I know, like, you know, as a kid, I think I when I say a kid, I was probably like, 1616 when he was saying this? Yeah, I always just, I just never wanted to apply myself in math, science or anything. And I really do believe that we've got like a brain for creativity. And we've got a brain for all those really sort of technical subjects. I really enjoyed English, I loved creative writing. So anything that had an element of creativity where I could explore, like, my ideas, and I could express myself in some way. Were the subjects that I was drawn to, in saying that I was never like, into drama or anything like that. But um, yeah, I was very much into art. I did art I did design, I had a very supportive design teacher. And when I first started design, like he really liked, fostered an interest in my work. And I think from there I think I always knew that I was going to be a graphic designer. I had a period where I thought I would be an architect. But yeah, I got into sort of my, my later years of secondary school and I knew that graphic design was where I was headed. I got to year 11 Sorry, year 12 And the workload was just like intense. And I decided to split my YouTube up over two years. So I could really focus on my design. And I can't remember what my final grade was in design that I think it was like nine out of 20 or something. There was some like, technical thing that stopped me from getting the 20. But anyway, doesn't really got moderated down because the state wasn't good. Yeah, that's right. And so from there, I actually studied through TAFE. And it was such a fantastic. It was such a fantastic way to learn because it was so hands on. And so I did my first year in Mount Gambia, I did my second year in Adelaide, and I lived with a couple of girls who one I'm still very good friends with today are actually friends with both of them today. But one, like our friendship has just continued on. And we both have very similar interests, even today. And we're all two of us are still graphic designers. The other isn't. But yeah, it was such a great experience. I lived with some people that were studying graphic design through university. And so I got to see how the two courses compared and I was just really happy with choosing that one. Because I think if I was sitting in a lecture theatre learning these things day in and day out, it would I would have lost interest I needed to like, see how it worked practically in a, like a specific setting. And I got to do that. So yeah, I still very much love graphic design. But I'm just understanding that there's so much more to what I can offer. Yeah, and yeah, I totally recommend graphic design to anyone out there is still I think it's still a fairly popular sort of choice for younger people. Yeah, that especially today, this always social media, and everyone's creating images for promotion. And these little, little, what do they call tiles? You know, on the Instagram? Oh, yeah. Like, it's Yeah, Canvas, definitely. Like, I think it's definitely got a place. And yeah, like just having the skills of graphic design is like really helpful for me, even in my art business, and being able to promote myself and keep sort of a consistent theme amongst my look and creating that brand. So there's like huge benefits to having that knowledge behind me. And I can see that it's probably something that I'll eat depending on, you know, how my career plays out. And, you know, I don't tie myself down to anything. I feel like my options are always open with what I could be. But I can see that that skill set that I've developed as a graphic designer will certainly carry through I think probably every job that I do. You've got that understanding of it is yeah, yeah, for sure. There's so much there's so much to it. It's such a broad, broad job. And every time people say to me, or what do you do? And it's like, oh, gosh, where do I start? Like, really varied? Which I love so much. Like, there's someone like me that felt like I can't I always thought to be good at art, you had to be able to draw something that looked like the thing you were drawing. That was my thing in my head. And because I couldn't do that. I thought I can't do it. But then when I I knew nothing about mediums, different texts, different. Whatever's paints, when I did that watercolor, I was like, Oh, well, you can do whatever you want. Like it just I just I had no boundaries, no barriers. It just became this amazing. I don't know, just even the way you got us to practice doing circles and learning. Like you said before, it's so technical, how different like amounts of water on your brush, create different things and just completely opened my eyes. I'd never looked at things that way. I didn't understand things. So I highly recommend it to anybody that doesn't know anything. I say joy because it's amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's, um, I think like, in most things in our lives, we probably like have a set of expectations on how we need to do that thing. and like, that includes everything from parenting down to like, I don't know how you hang your washing on the line. You know, like, we've got a set way we think things need to be done. And what I love about teaching watercolor is just giving people an opportunity to use creativity. And a lot of the times it's creativity that people didn't think they ever had. So I really believe that every person on this earth has got an element of creativity in them, I don't think we can survive if we don't. So, you know, it's just giving yourself permission to be able to, to use it. giving yourself time and also taking away the the expectation that you need to be good at it. Because it's unrealistic. So I think that if, if I had picked up watercolor on that first day that I did, and I expected to paint this amazing painting, and I didn't achieve it, I would never have picked it up again. But I gave myself some grace. And you know, whether I did that, I probably did it subconsciously, I probably didn't make the decision to go easy on yourself, Julia. But I just, I just went with almost like a childlike playful, you know, just go and see what it can do. And then, you know, I obviously enjoyed it. I didn't have I didn't feel like I failed. And then I could come back again and try again and then come back again and try again. And and then would you believe it? I've liked building this skill set, that's actually starting to make sense. And I'm getting a better understanding of the medium. So in the workshops, that's like, one of the first things I say is, and I had a workshop, like literally on Friday night, and I said to the girls there if if you have like any degree of OCD, like trying to like perfectionism control issues, watercolor watercolor will let you know, you'll, you'll get to a point where you just like the frustration will be there and it will test you. So like, you know what I was totally in that category. I was. Yeah, like, probably my, my need to control things was like, super highlighted when I when I had a newborn, because my control was, I couldn't control this little human. And, you know, it was months and months of me. You know, just trying to trying to get into trying to create a routine that fit in with me. And it all went terribly pear shaped like Christmas have must have been 2017 Duck was six months old. And like I literally had a meltdown on Christmas Day, because I think it was just I put such huge expectations on myself for that whole six months. And then Christmas day came and I knew that I had to be here and I had to be there and then had to fit in a sleep here. And I was very like, and I still I still am today. I'm still quite routine base. And like I think my son actually needs that sort of routine too. But certainly like that first six months was just a complete undoing. And I got to Christmas day and I just literally had actually call it a panic attack. When I look back now I really found it very hard to read. And my thoughts were like, I could not like line up. The first thing I should do the next thing to the next thing. And I just remember feeling like I was just losing my mind. And so Christmas Day was like a massive unraveling for me. And it also was the biggest highlight of I actually have to surrender, like and surrender was like the biggest word. It's probably the biggest word that I've adopted or a principle that I've adopted through my whole parenthood so Jack's only for now. And I'm still learning how to surrender like, I still I think I've I think I was like, almost forced to do it back at that six month point on Christmas Day. But then I still have these moments where I'm like, surrender Juliet. Like you can't control everything. You know, everything will happen as it's meant to. It's a trust. It's just having faith that it's all you You know, evolving as it's meant to. But yeah, but just going back to the board call workshops, the control. Yeah, it's definitely something that watercolor will highlight did a couple of like painting a day for I think I've done it like two or three months now, where I've just picked a month, and then I've painted something like maybe one particular subject, or I've just painted anything I want one day each month. And I did a lot of that because, yeah, I had this like perfectionist trait, which really stifled my creativity. And it was just really good to be able to commit to something and like, let everybody know that this was this thing that I was going to do. So I was being held accountable by people, because I literally would have people message me and say, Oh, hi, I didn't see your painting today. Which is great, because like, this is what I this is what I needed. Painting every day meant that I didn't actually have time to be perfect. Sometimes I only had five minutes. Yep, some days, I might have had a couple of hours. And so it was a really great way of like breaking that that thought pattern of you have to get this right, because I could I could see that that was an issue. And I think just flicking right back to that day that I had a meltdown. It was you know, it was highlighted to me back then that I had this tendency to want to get everything right and have everything work perfectly in this certain way. And so then, as I was becoming more and more aware of that, as I parented as I painted, I was putting myself in positions that I could really like challenge that way of thinking. And so these these months that I would paint every day really sort of reversed my thinking around that. And so now when I go and teach watercolor, it's the probably the main thing that I try and get across is, like, let go of your expectations. And like this is not just painting, I think this can just go right across the board. We we really are super hard on ourselves. And I think let me know, I'm talking about my experience here. But I have spoken to so many other mothers and we all fall in this trap of you know, we've just got to get it right. And you know, we need to have control. And I just don't think it's fair on ourselves. I don't think it's reasonable. And it's not fair on our children either. Because they're their own little people. And they're not supposed to be controlled to the nth degree like, so. Yeah, what a journey it's been. Let me tell you, it's like you created your own form of therapy. Like you worked out. Yeah, you needed to do you used your art as that, that tool? Yeah, that's quite incredible. I think, um, I think, like, I'm such a believer in, you know, people come into our lives as they're supposed to experiences come in, I think children come into our lives when they're supposed to. And, like, I've always had a real trust that I would be given the things that I need to get me through at the time. And painting, especially watercolor is like highly therapeutic. And I had a girl sitting next to me on Friday night. And she said I would pay to just come here and watch you put the paint on the paper. Because it's like she said I'm mesmerized by it. As and I've heard this by so many people and I even do this when I watch other people painting. So it's not just the people who have never seen watercolor be used before get like in a trance. Yeah, watching being painted. It's me watching and I know I've painted enough now to like, yeah, if I watch somebody painting, I can get really just really sucked in and just watch it. There's a huge therapeutic benefit to I'll just say watercolor because that's what I know. And it's it's also just like sort of that flowing sort of medium. So I think, yeah, certainly something that I've considered is like, actually studying art therapy, because I think, yeah, we're gonna die in an age where I think it's probably needed. Like, don't don't probably think it's needed. It's needed. So, yeah, yeah, you bring up about watching people, I love watching people on Instagram, I'll just watch people paint. Like, I love it so much. It's like, it started started off. I think it's an interesting to work out how people make things from not having any understanding of, of how people create art, and really, the processes. And then yeah, like, I love it, when people post their actual videos of them painting. It's like a, like a meditation, I suppose you just get lost in it. And it's just, it gives you something. It's just incredible. I don't quite know how to explain it. But I don't know. It's just a beautiful thing to witness. And then I'll like write a comment on someone's Oh, I love love watching you pay. And there'll be like, Oh, I wasn't sure if I should share it or not. You know, people feel that. I don't know that nervousness about putting it out there because I suppose they feel judged. I don't know if that's the right word. But there. Yeah, but that I don't think they realize how much people get out of it, you know, tiny, tiny little thing that they share, like 30 seconds or a minute or whatever. Yeah, it's awesome. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that I've noticed anytime I paint, post anything live, like, on live, but you know, if I do like a time lapse of a painting or something, I can always guarantee that someone will say, I just loved watching that. And it might not be that they loved the actual painting or Yeah, the subject or whatever, they just love watching the paint go on the paper. So yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty special actually feel quite privileged to be able to one sort of have an understanding of watercolor, because it is something that takes me to time. And I'm also very privileged to be able to pass that on to people. And I just love the fact that I have people that come back, and come back and come back to these workshops. So if there was any sort of, if I needed any sign that I was sort of doing the right thing, it's just that people come back and they want to keep learning and, you know, putting themselves in a position where they can try this out so. With your teaching, did you find any sort of challenges in that? Or did you sort of jump into it like yet? I'm really, I want to share I don't have any sort of hang ups about, you know, being in front of a crowd? Like, did it come to you really naturally? Or did you have any sort of challenges? Um, I think like, probably just nervousness, but I think that would be pretty normal. Next, anyone? The actual teaching side of it was so just, I'll just take one step backwards. I'm an I'm one of these people that overthink everything. I am super analytical. So I can almost talk myself into something and out of something in the same flight thought, yeah, yeah. And so the way that the workshops came about was I think I might have put up a video of me planning something. And someone said, Oh, I'd love for you to teach me how to do that. And then I put up a story on Instagram that just said, is there anyone out there who would like to learn watercolor? And it was like one of those questions, yes or no? And then I got lots of yeses. Yeah. And literally, it all happened within like, a few hours. I think like, this is the beauty of like, when you when you when you sort of done something over and over again, like I've done, I can't count probably how many workshops I've done now. When you look back to like, what was the first like, when did you start doing this? And it's like, oh, it was this. It was just this really flippant decision to put up an Instagram story. And like, that's where it started. It wasn't over thought it wasn't something that I planned for months or years or anything like that. It was just this one really defining moment that was just very organic. Yep. And and it all started from there. And, like, yeah, I just love the fact that I'm here I am, like, a few years down the track still teaching these workshops, still getting people coming to my classes. And yeah, it was just this. Just this really, like, fleeting moment where I was almost like just this change in my direction. Yeah. Yeah. So grateful for that. Yeah. It sort of links in what you were saying before about, you know, believing that things happen at the right time, things will happen. Yeah, you know, it's like, you made that decision. And instantly, it was all opened up for you, because it was like, it's almost like when you manifest something, you know, that. Obviously, you hadn't thought about that for a while. But it's like, it was like, you're ready. It's gonna happen. Now, you know what I mean? It just off it went, it's like, yeah, I love that, too. And I think, you know, you just you follow the things that feel right and good. And I think a lot of that's intuition, which is something that I've, like, worked on for a long, long time. So like, I really do, try and listen to my gut. And I really do try and yeah, just just follow the things that really light me up. You know, I hopefully, like, whether I even listen back to this podcast, my own voice, I don't know. But if I do, I would love to be able to hear the excitement in my voice around watercolor. Because if I was talking about cooking, like it would be different, you wouldn't, you wouldn't pick it up. But I was like, really enjoying this thing. So I'm pretty sure if I could compare the two, you know, and it's that it's that excitement and that joy that comes through in the way you deliver something or the way you talk about it that? Like, they're the things that I want in my life. Yeah. And like I said to you at the start, I don't rule anything out. I don't know where I'll be in five or 10 years time, maybe I won't be teaching watercolor, but maybe I'll like, maybe I'll have an art school. Or maybe I'll be an art therapist, or I just always want to keep chasing the thing that lights me up. Because I think that's when you're really on path. That's when you're really doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing in this lifetime. So yeah, I'll just keep tracing. I love that. It's like you're so open to whatever can come in. And yeah, listening to your intuition and going yeah, actually, I feel like doing that. I'm gonna do that, you know? Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, don't get me wrong, there are days when my head definitely talked a lot and you still have to pay bills, Julio, and you can't do that. You know, it's a slow burn, I think if you just give yourself the the space to entertain the idea at least, then you've sort of like planted a seed and, and whether it grows into something or not, is probably just a matter of time so. So let's talk about Jack. So Jack, please board now. And you mentioned that when he was 10 months old, you made the decision to do your your picture your painting your day. Yes. So how does Jack sort of fit in with your, with your art? Are you able to create while he's there or sort of how does that sort of look on a day to day basis? Yeah. So first six months of, of Jack was pretty much like Groundhog Day. Like I'm not gonna lie, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat parenting. It was bloody hard. Yeah, and I'm very, very self aware person. I didn't go into parenting thinking that was going to be easy but like He literally cracked me open. And like, I'm grateful for that now, but back at the time, I think if I was going to really be completely honest, I probably had postnatal depression and found it very hard asking for help. And I've always been very proud and very independent sort of person. So I felt like I should be able to do this. And if I asked to help others be judged. So the first six months, not a lot, but about 10 months, I think he was probably getting into a routine of better sleep. And I'll just say here that he's like four years old, and still wakes up in the middle of the night. So I'm okay with that. Now, I'm totally okay with that now, because I've surrendered to it. But yeah, like, by 10 months, I think I felt like I needed to, I was trying to claim a piece of myself back. I felt like a given and given and given and it was, it was a real slog. And I wasn't getting a lot of sleep still at 10 months, not getting a lot of sleep. But I think I just needed to try, I knew that I needed to give myself something. But I didn't know. I think it was just the thing that I could see myself able to do at a kitchen table at nighttime. So it was still in my house, I didn't have to go anywhere to do it. And it was therapeutic, like I did enjoy the actual painting side of it. So I definitely, definitely tried it, I got all I did pretty well, I got to 75 days, and then decided I actually made it quite clear. I said to everyone on social media, I can't actually I just can't do this anymore. Like, I actually I'm really proud of the fact that I've got to 75 days, but I can't, like I just can't keep doing it. And it was great, I got a good response. It's like, you know, you've done amazing, we can't believe you've done that with a timer, or baby or whatever. So, after that point, like creating with Jack was just very, very intermittent. It was just, you know, most of the time, if I had a spare couple of hours while he was sleeping, you know, I was actually working like souls back doing my graphic design trying to work within sleep time. So I really wasn't creating a lot at all. Still, like biggest being creative with my, what I call my real job graphic design. But like I wasn't painting, I wasn't like I wasn't, yeah, doing it consistently by any means. Today, as well, I guess, you know, jumping to today's probably cutting out a huge portion of his life. But I think just as he got older, I was able to do a little bit more with him around. But generally now I try and carve out time when I haven't got him or when it might be a weekend and he can be out playing with his dad. And you know, I can sort of just get a mental run on. Like, it's quite hard to explain. I mean, I'm not sure whether it's the same fee, Allison, whether you're writing music, or like producing it or however you do it. But when you're in the zone, you're in the zone, and when you get snapped out like it's very hard to be pulled out of it and then come back in it like and that might just be even like him Jack sticking his head in the door and saying, Hey, Mom, I'm hungry. That can really like snap you out of your like your train of thought. And yeah, like I think that's probably been the trickiest part is when you've got that real creative urge that you just you know that you need to just go in and paint something and you can't do it. So you feeling you get very frustrated and feel a little bit creatively stifled when you can't use that creative energy. And then when you're able to use the creative energy, but you're getting into interrupted. And yeah, and so I think the way that works best for us now is if I just on my own, and I can just do it, and I don't get bothered. And like this is not happening all the time, let me tell you like, but it's amazing. I think it's amazing what you can achieve in a short amount of time when you do have children. Something that might have taken me a few days to achieve like I can literally like do it in a couple like couple of hours. Yeah. So you Learn to use your time very wisely. And you learn to be very intentional with the time that you have. I think so. Yeah, look, it's very much I grab what I can get when I can get it at the moment. Yeah, the time that I can get to create, that's what that's how it works at the moment. But I know down the track, you know, two years time, or kindy, next year, and then school the year after. And I know that a lot of things will open up for me in that in that period of Jack's life. And I don't want to lose sight of like what I've got with him at the moment and the time that I have with him at the moment. So I don't wish I had more time. I'm just taking the time that I've got. Because I know that this is just, this is the season of my life at the moment, and it will change and then it will change again, and it'll all change again. So we'll just continue to do Yeah. Yeah, and you're you're good with change you you like, you know, you're obviously sound like you're accepting that. Do you think that ties into your connection with nature that you, you spend a lot of time, you know, seeing things change? Seeing the leaves change? Seeing, you know? Yeah, I think that that helps. Yeah, I think. I think by nature I like. Yeah, it's probably a little odd really like, because I do like, I do like to know, I do like to know what's in store for me? Yeah, actually, it's really interesting. Yeah, I guess I like an element of control. But for the most part, I'm happy to I'm happy to just move in the direction that feels right. So I think, yeah, yeah, it's a really interesting question. Because I feel like I've probably got a little bit of, like, I've still got an element of control. I think I've probably always had that. But yeah, I'm just, I'm just very trusting of, like, I'm trusting that I'm going to be, I'm going to end up doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing. Have a real fight around it. But yeah, I mean, like, I literally love being out amongst the natural world. Like, it's so grounding for me. And, yeah, I think that probably does play a part in that, like, I see. Like I even said before, it's the season of my life, like, you know, I think I can see that. Like, we're all not meant to be doing the same things. Like every day, I go through phases where I want to be really, really creative. And then I go through like, a social media hiatus where I do not post anything, and like, I'm sure the algorithm hates me for it. But you know, like, I was on holidays recently. And the last thing I wanted to do was even look at social media, let alone post something. So no one heard from me for like, probably 10 days. But yeah, I go, I go through ways of, you know, wanting to be seen and heard. Sometimes I go through phases where I really feel like the thing that I'm thinking about needs to be heard by someone. So I like to like, you know, put it into words or whatever. And then I go through phases where I just literally want to withdraw from it all. And I honor that, like I don't, I'm not going to post just because I want to see me, you know, because the algorithm won't like me I really couldn't care less about but yeah, I think I definitely like to just go with the flow. And I think you're right, probably tying that back into like the nature side of things is probably perfect. Let's delve into the two topics that I particularly like to talk about. First one's mum guilt and put that in air quotes. How do you feel about mum guilt? How do I feel about it? Okay, so if you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be, Alison, you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt, but I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today, where I feel like I could be doing better, should be making a different decision. I think it's, I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't, but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom? Is that what they call it? Where you? Yeah. Or you just really sacrifice yourself? For somebody else? And yeah, it's really interesting, because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being it's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood. And, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt like, I just sacrificed myself, I literally did. And I think when it came to that Christmas Day, when I, you know, everything fell apart. You know, it really highlighted to me that I needed to take better care of myself, like I was not eating well, I literally just ate the scraps. And that's not to say that I didn't have like, my partner, cooking me meals and stuff, like I still ate, you know, well, but you know, just just eating toast on the go. And, you know, not just making decision that actually had to look after myself. So, yeah, it took a while to get my head around that. But um, I think, yeah, just getting back to what you said, Mom, Gil is, it's alive. It's happening, it happens. And I think what we all we can do is really like support, especially new moms. To understand, uh, give, give them give them the the ability to be able to, you know, spend time on themselves, you know, going there helping them. But you know, it's not just new moms as well, it's, it's, I think it's mums in general. Yeah. Just yeah. All have kids of all ages. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really important point. Because, I mean, I'm not obviously I'm not begrudging the newborn stage, because I know that it's hell, I've done it twice. And it's really hard. That's the thing like, it's, it's almost like, well, you're over this hard stage, you'll be fine. Now off you go. You know, it's like, the Thank you, right. Looking out for mums of, of children at any stage in any age is really important. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I can only speak of, you know, the first four years. But I know that it's like, it's still things that you know, an example is, you know, I've got work that I have to get done. I've got deadlines, I, I work well, at the moment, I'm not working from home, but I'll likely be back working from home soon. And you know, if there's a time that I need to jump on my computer and finish something off, and Jack comes up to me and says, Mom, can you come play with me? And I have to say, Nobody, I've got to get something done for work, you know, there's an element of guilt in that. But the reality is that that's life. You know, I do have to get this thing done. And so I can I can reflect on that and say, Well, you know, you did have to do the thing that you did earlier. But it doesn't mean that I don't have that moment where I think, you know, I should be playing with him, because this is what he wants. Yeah, so yeah, it's a tricky one, the whole manual situation, but I totally believe it's there. Yeah. It's an endless thing isn't it's like, one day, you might feel like, yeah, you got it. Right. And then the next day, you feel like you're the worst moment? Absolutely. Yeah. It's a constant thing. You mentioned briefly their ties into my second point about identity, where you said, you're still the same person you were before you had children. Obviously, it's a belief that you hold. So one of my friends had a baby, years before I had Jack. And I watched her go through. I watched her lose. I've watched her. I didn't watch her lose her identity. But I watched her. Talk about losing her identity, and then trying to reclaim it back. And I remember saying to her, you're still a person you were before you had your baby. Like, you're still my friend, I still remember you when I like, studied with you live with you. So like, that hasn't changed for me. But she had lost sight of that. And I couldn't quite get my head around it at the time. And I was really trying to explain it to her. And it wasn't until I had Jack that I understood what happens. And you do lose yourself. Like, I don't think it matters how? Well I don't know, I can't speak for everyone, but certainly for me. Like I totally lost myself. I didn't know who I was, I knew that I knew what I enjoyed doing before I had Jack. And I knew that I now had a baby. Obviously couldn't make them both work at the same time. So I felt like I was in this like limbo state. And it took, it took a while for me to work out. Actually, it was sort of like a process of rent reinventing myself. That's how I felt it. It played out. I started trying to paint again, it obviously didn't like go, how I planned. And it was still very hit and miss as far as when I could actually be creative and when I couldn't. But I think what it did was it made me realize what I actually wanted to do. I started to get really clear on the direction that I wanted to take. And I sort of think I had a friend say to me, I think Jack was only quite young, he might have been six months old. And I have a friend or she actually a client as well, who said to me, Julia, when you become a mom, she said you've only got a certain amount of like bullshit that you can tolerate in a day. So when you've reached your threshold, you know you're done. And I I always remember that because I just remember thinking like it. Like I just didn't have time for a lot of stuff that I didn't have any interest in. So I think I just I just I started to become really clear on the direction I wanted to take. I became very clear on the people that I wanted around me and the people I didn't need around me. A lot of things just started to To like very much very slowly, but over time, making more and more sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I started to reinvent myself. And yeah, I honestly believe that's why I'm where I am today, because I just didn't have I just didn't have the energy for meaningless things. And so I was just trying to follow the things that felt right and felt good. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like this, this new perspective of, like, I only have this amount of time. And I'm not going to give this time to stuff that that doesn't feel good for me or is, you know, feels like it's being wasted on stuff. That's irrelevant. And, yeah, I think naturally, you know, when your life changes that much, I think naturally, things just drop away. And like that, that goes for friendships, jobs, beliefs, I think just the things that don't serve you anymore, or perhaps were not really sustaining in the first place. You just don't have time for them. Or they don't have time for you anymore. So I think. Yeah, look, I think you get like, I think motherhood is just such a pivotal point in a woman's life, I don't think you can, you can ever expect that you're going to be the person that you were before. I think is so unrealistic. But you don't know that until you doing it. Yeah. Let's see, it's very much it's very much a learned and learned experience or a learning lesson. So you have you have to experience it together. It's like that joke if you had to be there. When you said before about control with, with Jack, when I had Digby, sorry, when I had Alex, I was exactly the same. I just wanted everything to go, how I needed it to go. Like, I remember one day, I had a similar experience to you, but perhaps not on the same scale that I wanted to go and watch Ben, he was cycling at that stage. So what I'm watching, right, so I'd worked out the whole day of when he had to get out when he had to sleep all this stuff to say that I could go watch. And it didn't work. And I just lost it. I was like, I can't do anything anymore. Because I've got this kid and blah, blah. And I remember my mother in law said he's not going to be this young forever is going to change. And I was like, we're like, I didn't hear that. You know, it didn't mean anything at the time. And then when he did start to change as of this morning period of Oh, no, he's not a baby anymore. But you know, like, Mr. Graham said, we don't wish it away. Don't Don't wish him to be older. So yeah, when I had D, I was the complete opposite. And I think it helped because I had been working in childcare for quite a while. And I had to excite, I saw all the myriads of ways that children could be raised and how their routines could be. And I had this whole new outlook on on parenting. And also there were seven years between them, so I hadn't quite grown up as the two and eggs. I just let it happen as it happened. And I was just such a more relaxed mother. Yeah, just I could completely, completely relate to that. Your experience. When you said, like, you know, you had this thing you wanted to be doing at the end of the day, so like, you will try and organize wake sleep. lunch late, you know, and I did the same thing. It was like, yeah, the pressure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I didn't really touch too much on the spiritual side of things. But like, yeah, like, it's, maybe it's not the same for everyone. But for me, it was like a very, very, like it was it was an awakening of sorts, it was sort of like, you know, you you can't control everything. Like, you're not meant to control everything. So I just feel like I've been cracked open multiple times through this parenting experience. And it's been, it's been like, I would never ever trade it for anything in the world. But I'm also not going to gloss over it and pretend that it was easy because I think we say so much of that. And I feel like people go into parenting with this like me, you don't want to make them feel like it's going to be doom and gloom otherwise You know, the Human Rights Code at the end? You know, like, but you want to give them some honest, like, give them some honest accounts of what you've been through. Because then it also validates the people that are in it doing it, thinking that life is just like, yeah, it is hard and to have people come along and say, like, even when you're in your depths, and someone comes along and says, this won't last forever, don't wish this away. It's like, no, but can you just like, can you just sit with me in this place that I'm in at the moment and actually validate that I'm, it's okay for me to be thinking this thing at the moment. Like, yeah, yeah, it's valid. Yeah, yeah. I don't think enough of that goes on, that you're actually you're allowed to feel what you're feeling. It's okay to fear feeling. And let yourself feel that way. You know, when one comes along and says, you know, Julia, this might be forever, and then you get that element of guilt. You know, like I should be, I should be more thankful and grateful. Yeah, like, I went through an infertility journey leading up to having Jack and that was four years. And then when I had him to have all these feelings of like, you know, like my life, I remember feeling trapped. I remember sitting on the toilet one day, just thinking, I'm just trapped. And like, I'm just, I can't get out of this. Yep. I remember having thoughts of blackjack not being able to sleep. So. So when when I was trying to put him to bed because this was bedtime, trying to get him to sleep, persisting, persisting, persisting, almost going insane. When really, I should have just got him up. Got Back Up. He's not ready to sleep yet. Put him back down later, but no, in my head. This was bedtime. Yeah. And I so I drove myself like, crazy. And I remember thinking, I wish he had a reset button that I could like, I remember having those thoughts of like, I wish I could literally just press a button that turned him off. And he went to sleep. Yeah. So like, I look back on my sports now. And I'm like, God, that was crazy. But you're in the depths of it like, and when you're having that little thought to yourself in that dark room, and no one else is seeing or hearing it. You know, you nobody knows what you're going through. Do that. Like nobody. Nobody hears that little thought that you have? No. Yeah. So yeah. All right, it was bloody hard. You didn't know any better. And I think that's where you need to give yourself grace. You just you didn't know any better. And if you did it all again, and you have you do it differently, because you've learned and you're easier on yourself. And, you know, I hope that I get to do it again. But I know that if I do it would be totally different. I'll have a different perspective. And you know, Jack's four years old, maybe I'll have a seven year gap to you know, like, and I'm actually okay with that. Because I think I don't think I could have done it any other way. Oh, yeah, I don't think but I don't think I could back up children like you know, and I'm not no disrespect to anyone who like wants the two year gap or the whatever. But I don't personally think that I could have ever achieved it. If I had a fallen pregnant when Jack was two years old, I would have cried myself to sleep every night like I just don't believe that I was meant to have you know, yeah, so Oh, you know, the beauty of hindsight Hey, sort of look back and yeah, but it is what it is. And you know, we just did the best we could really so which wasn't really that bad? So you've recently set up a space outside your home for your work? Yeah, yeah. Is that going going good? No, it's going really well. I'm I'm probably there for a little bit longer as in maybe a month to six weeks, something like that. But I yeah, I was offered a Be the back section of a coffee shop in Mount Gambia called confession. Who does delicious coffee by the way? That's been the downfall. So much caffeine. But yeah, look, I got to a point where I needed a I just wanted a space that wasn't at home. I could see that. Like, I wasn't getting a lot done here. So I felt like I needed like some way that I could actually go to work. I've been working from home for I think, eight years, actually not nine years. And for the most part, it's been fantastic. But yeah, I actually put something up on Instagram one day. And it was just like, does anybody have a place? I'm sort of in need of a space to work from can be, can be formal, it can be informal, I'm not going to rule out what it is where it is. Yeah, so I just sort of, you know, put it out to the universe and. And then, like, I was probably buying copies everyday from confession at that point. Yeah. And then I got a message from Don on on a Thursday night to say, you know, we've got this space, businesses moved out of it, and they've found their own short brand. Do you have any interest in maybe working from there for a few months, and really, just to fill a hole? So it was going to be just an empty room? And they didn't want that? So without even thinking? I just thought, yeah, absolutely. Like, what is the worst that can come of this, I am either incredibly unproductive there. And I can work, I can just bring my stuff home and work from here if I need to. But I had this whole room that I could hang up my artwork, which has been leaning up against walls in my office for ages. So I just really saw it as an opportunity and a bit of an experiment. I still see it as an experiment. Yeah, I just couldn't see any negatives to it. So it's been fantastic. I have spoken to people that call, like it's a bit of a thoroughfare the room that I'm in. But like I get to chat to people that I've never met before, I've had some amazing encounters and conversations with people that have like, furthered me in some way, whether it's the way I think about something or, you know, just conversations with people who are trying to create art groups or other artists, or yeah, I've had the ability to work with alongside a couple of artists, and it's just fabulous being in that really sort of creative space with other people. Oh, yeah, I've had my artwork up on walls, I've been able to sell a couple of paintings, just expose myself to a group of people that I wouldn't normally come across. And it's been absolutely fantastic. And what I've learned from it is, as much as I classify myself as an introvert, I do need interaction with people. But I need it, I sort of need it on my terms, too. So I get a lot from working with other creative people. Just it doesn't, I don't have to be working on a project with them. But just being in their creative space is very important. And that I get a lot more done working from somewhere than working from home. Like it's amazing. How many times I probably catch myself underneath my clothesline hanging out washing. How did I even get here? You know, it's just like, I think you hear the washing machine go off. And before you know it, you you're hanging up the washing and it's like, Joey, you're working like so, yeah, I'm realizing now that there is a benefit to me not working from home. And I love the fact that I can go to work. And I come home and I feel like there's a division between the tote. Yep. And I feel like when I'm home, I'm home and I'm present. And these are just all things that I have haven't. I just haven't noticed because I haven't been able to work away from my office that is in my house. And now that I've had that opportunity on I think like from here and I'll be looking for somewhere that I can actually call my work space or my studio where I can be I just productive and have my own my own area. And I also know that I want to be able to work amongst other people. So, yeah, it's been fantastic. It's been so good for that. Yeah, absolutely. It's given you these, like, like we said before you don't you don't know. I guess you don't know what you don't know. So by experiencing things you've gone, yeah, this is good. Yeah. I think it's great to for people that, like, follow you on social media, they can actually go and meet you face to face to, which is, like, so important, I think to like, it's great that people build relationships online, but it's, I think it's, it's, especially with art, like you actually want to see and I don't want to say touch the person, but you want to be more of the the person that's making this. So yeah, to you know, you get the energy and pick up on the vibes and that sort of stuff, too. So, definitely, definitely the benefits that way as well. And for people to be able to, you know, touch and feel and you know, see work and yeah, it's great I'll just check ever get involved with you just say do painting or anything like that? Do you do it together? Yeah, definitely does. And Jack is like, he's he hasn't shown a huge interest in like art and stuff at the moment. There's also an element of me like, not wanting him to get pain everywhere. I was gonna I would definitely had died outside where he's unleashed his creative, his creative desires. But yeah, he's, yeah, like, he's definitely got creative creativity in him. But at the moment, he's just very much into anything with wheels. That makes noise. Yeah. He was funny, he was playing in doing some coloring in only a couple of days ago. And like, he colored outside of the line, okay, so He's four years old, colored outside of the line, and he colored over the top of the yellow headlight on the car. And he was he hated it. He told me, he was never going to pick up another colored pencil. And here I am, like, deciding going, you have done an amazing job Jack, like, you know, you're practicing, you're not you can't coloring in the lines, you know, you're not going to be able to do it properly for a little while. So I'm encouraging you, meanwhile, really saying a portion of myself inside of him, like, you know, trying to control things. But yeah, he, I don't think he doesn't really influence my work. The way that he does influence, I guess the way that he does influence my creativity in some way is that, you know, I want I want him to do the things that he loves to do. And I want him to explore the things that he loves to do. And I think, like, I can only lead by example, in that, in that respect. So I want him to know that, you know, I've had a lot of people say to me, Oh, you're you're the rd type. And, oh, what does it mean? Like I like to, I'd like to just get you to explain that to me. But um, you know, a lot of a lot of a lot of people think artists can't make money. But artists can make money. There's plenty of artists that make money there. us in this town making a lot of money by selling their stuff online. And yeah, to not sort of pigeonhole anything into you know, just give, give, just entertain the idea that you could be, you know, good at this thing. If it's not today, it could be, you know, in a month's time, or maybe it'll be 10 years time, but like, just persistence is the key. So, he influences me in that respect, but he doesn't necessarily influenced the things that I paint. That's very much a personal thing for me, so Yeah, but he's certainly part of the process. I guess. You can't he can't not be Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the Yeah. So I've got one more workshop left for the year. And that is on the fourth of December, that's a Saturday at the apple farm. That's a two hour workshop. And it includes sexually over three hours, there's a two hour workshop. And then there's an hour for lunch. And there'll be a delicious pizza and sort of shared platter lunch. And that's a very festive theme. So there'll be the opportunity to paint some, you know, gift tags and cards and stuff like that. It's quite a social, a social sort of afternoon. So it's not so much about learning a lot about how to paint watercolor is just giving you sort of the tools, the materials to be able to just have a bit of fun. And I'm sort of really like envisioning, you know, especially moms, I'm very, very feminine audience. And I just sort of want people to be able to say, oh, you know, we haven't worked with our friends for ages. Why don't we do this thing that's like our little Christmas catch up? Because we all know what sort of December looks like in most people's calendars. Yeah. Well, like a staff show or something like that. So it's such a beautiful venue, and I'm hoping that the weather is amazing. And, you know, good food, good company. You know, a bit of like, creativity, I think it's perfect. So yeah, that's, that's the workshop that I've got coming up. I've just launched my website. Congratulation one. Now, there's still a lot to go on there. But like, once again, something is better than nothing. And it's, it's an evolution at all, like, it'll just continue to evolve. But yeah, so I've got my website up. So my web address is Julia Rita creates.com. And I'm just about to kick off on a project run by April Hague, and Jane Van Eaton. So to like amazing artists in our Gambia, who were doing like fabulous things with regard to, like art education. And they, they just recently won a grant. And they've launching a project called The Portrait Project. And it's, I believe, it's 10 artists, we all have our photo taken. And then we all paint a portrait of either ourself or one other person in the group based on the portrait photo that was taken of us. And it's a project that will span over six months, and we get to spend time with like these 10 artists, and we get to sort of collaborate and discuss and just learn different techniques and styles. And I think it's just fantastic to sort of submerge yourself in a group of women that all have like a similar interest. And so yeah, I was so thrilled to be invited to do that. And it was, again, like one of those no brainer moment moments where I knew this was sort of like another experience that would like enhance the direction that I'm going in. And so eventually, once that project is tied up, our portraits will be printed on a large scale and actually put up in a public space. So yeah, like really confronting, because portraits are obviously not something that I paint, and let's face it, like I think everyone a, whether you're artistically minded, or not, like painting a face is actually quite, you know, stretching the skill set. And you guys to having your face out there, like that something to, you know, consider if there's any sort of, you know, well, I've got a big chin or you know, that sort of stuff, you know, it's Yeah, that's me. I've, I've I have fast forwarded my thoughts to that moment. But no, look, it's it's gonna be fantastic. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's only really just kicking off at the moment. But I think if you were interested in more on that particular project, you could go to if you look up April Hague haitch ag UAE on Instagram. She's got some information on there. But yeah, perhaps if they If I do set up a specific social media page, I'll let you know Alison so you can be on it to the specific Yes, Lily kids. Yeah, I'd love to keep keep her eye on that. And I'm sure a lot of people would be really interested in that too. Yeah. Seeing the progression of that. Oh, that sounds so great. Julie. A good one. Yeah. Lots of cool stuff happening. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I should also say that I am going to be at a market on the 10th of December. Yeah, at the city hall and that Gambia there's an artisans market there. So yeah, it was quite popular last time. So hopefully this time as well. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Eleesa Howard Australian contemporary mixed media visual artist S1 Ep25 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts In this final regular weekly episode for 2021 and Season 1, my guest is Eleesa Howard. Eleesa is a contemporary artist from the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria and a mum of 3. She works with multiple mediums including acrylics, oil pastels and collage, and is not afraid to experiment with any materials on hand. ​ Eleesa approaches her expressionist style in an intuitive way, using her painting and collages as a way of letting go, of not over-thinking life and instead focusing on the positive and joyous in every day. Her works are reflective, exploring relationships, emotions, and connections to her family, community, and environment. Eleesa is currently focusing on exploring sentimental childhood memories, motherhood and the everyday moments. ​ Today we chat about being clear and communicating your art making needs, using art to move through challenging transitions in life, drawing inspiration from strong female figures in her life and the joys of raising teenagers. ​ Eleesa website / instagram View Eleesa’s latest series Memories Are Made Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their heart. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in. In this final regular weekly episode for 2021 and Season One, my guest is Elisa Howard Elisa is a contemporary artist from the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria, and a mom of three. She works with multiple mediums including acrylics, oil, pastels and collage and is not afraid to experiment with any materials she has on hand. Elisa approaches her expressionist style in an intuitive way, using her painting and collages as a way of letting go of not overthinking life, and instead focusing on the positive and joyous in every day. Her works are reflective, exploring relationships, emotions and connections to her family, community and environment. Elisa is currently focusing on exploring sentimental childhood memories, motherhood, and the everyday moments. Today, we chat about being clear and communicating your art making needs using art to move through challenging transitions in life, drawing inspiration from strong female figures, and the joys of raising teenagers. Thank you so much for coming on today, Alisa. It's a real pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. You're a visual artist. Tell us about the mediums that you work in and the sort of style that you do. Yeah, so I'm an abstract artists, I guess sort of more expressionism might say, I work with a bit of mixed media. So I use mostly acrylic paints, and collage oil pastels, pretty much have a go with anything that is sort of laying around really. And it seems to evolve. And chop, chop and change as you go along. So yeah, that sounds like a bit of fun, actually. It's like the sort of open to any sort of anything. I said, I think if I stick with one thing all the time, I sort of start overworking it and then overthinking it. So it's good to have a few different things. So I don't like even at the moment, I'm doing some paperwork with collage on timber. But I've also got some paintings on the go as well. So just to just to mix it up. Yeah, that's cool. So how did you first get into painting and creating? Well, I like so many people as a creative kid. Always having a go with things. Drawing and you know, I remember being sort of I think Musclemania that for and draw. I was really into like Holly hobby and last in the prairie. imagining myself in what boots and frilly dresses. Yeah, a bit of a daydreamer. So and I remember drawing I had, I was drawing these profiles of these girls in bonnets and stuff. And yeah, I had friends asking me, Can you tell me mine occasionally? Well, so that was pretty cute. But you're pretty much high school, I guess where you're exposed to opportunities to have a go at different things. And different mediums and that sort of thing. My grandmother was quite always creative as well. So should there was always sort of that influence. From the beginning to Yeah, yeah. High School. Really? I guess. Yeah. And then from then you sort of did you go. Did you have a say a day job, but did you? How did you sort of progress once you left school? Did you go? Well, no, I didn't. I am. I ended up. I was really, I really loved photography. Actually. That's where I was sort of my spy doing art, but I love photography. And I sort of had a dream of being a photographer. Didn't really work how I ended up getting married very young, so about 20 and had my daughter, my first child at 23 as well. So just you know, you're busy working. You know, there's always things tinkering in the background, but nothing sort of serious. And then yeah, always sort of been. And then as I got I had kids always trying to sort of keep up with painting here and there. But then things get messy and you can't always do that. So no formal training, always just sort of trained myself to hurry. When was it? In 2018? I did do a Diploma of visual arts so when my youngest was heading into high school, it was a bit of a Oh, geez, okay, he's, this is my last one. What? Maybe it's time for me. And I was a bit lost. And so I ended up going to an open day at the local TAFE. And she's, and I just worked, I just instantly they walked into the rooms and like, this is it, I've gotta go, I've just got to do this. I've got to come here. So even though I'm still working a day job, I'm working three days and three days there, I was flat out, but I just made it happen. And I absolutely loved it. Especially like learning printmaking, and even the sculpture I had to go out and found that just really fascinating. So So that sort of kick started it back up again, really, you know, I've always done other things sewing, and I used to have market stalls and making quilts and things like that, to always have a creative outlet. Just not so much the visual art side until really then again, which was Yeah, so I took on a bit of a studio space and just dedicated time to it. And try not to feel guilty about it. Think Yeah, the age challenge for mom. Yeah, exactly. Yes. So tell us about your children. So you mentioning. Yeah. How many children do you have? I've got three children. So my oldest now, Bonnie, she's 25. She still lives at home. And then I've got my son, Finn, who's 22. And he just moved to Geelong and actually just during lockdown, like in June. So we haven't seen him for five months, which has been a bit hard. And then my youngest is Salman, and he's in New Year. 10. Next year, so yeah. And he's just about 15. Yeah, right. So we're sort of like this, you sort of used that, that creative outlet to sort of help you through a transition, I suppose, is sort of a change to the and how you looked at yourself? Yeah. I think especially my, when I had my daughter, I did stop work. And was really like a mom at home. And but I used to just go a little bit, you know, crazy. So I'd always have things on the go. Whether it was painting furniture, or you know, sewing outfits for her, just actually remember cuz she used to just cry so much. And always wanted movement, too. And so I actually remember rocking her with my right foot, like in the pram and then saw me with my left foot. By like, no kidding, I was like, I've got to get some stuff done. It sounds like you would have made a good drummer. I'm like, she was just a shocker. I didn't know how I even had any more kids after that. I'd been in the shower, and I had she'd be like in a baby rocker thing. And I have to have my foot out of the shower while showering just issues hard work. But yeah, always kept up those sort of things. You know, just I needed something. And I used to love being creative with the kids too. You know, I'd always have as I got older craft tables and try to get kind of man to which I really enjoy. Yeah. So any of them sort of continued with any sort of, like art practice or not? Well, the only one really is my middle one. He's quite creative. He's a musician. So he loves his music. He's also a chef. And he also just likes at the moment he's actually been dabbling in some painting himself so I'm keen to get over then they can have a see what he's been doing. Yeah. My daughter did do art at school. And I hope that she sort of gets back to that as she gets older maybe Yeah, but yet at the moment, no, no, yeah, my youngest sporting so completely different. The kids are also different Your collection that was called sentimental. Yeah, I was just really taken by that. Yeah, the in particular was to that I really was drawn to soft kisses. And then it was what was it just called T? Is that right? Yes, that's right. Yeah. They were actually. They're actually about my husband. Yeah, I think during lockdown last year, I was in Victoria. And, you know, we've been through quite a bit of lockdown. And last year, we were all at home a lot. And we were trying to sort of survive, we're having our own little sort of stations where we could kind of go off to, to keep everyone on saying. And he always has actually, for a very long time, as always made me a cup of tea. And I just just was really appreciating it. You know, you take these things for granted, but I did really, I just thought, you know what, I'm really lucky to have someone that does that. And just those little morning kisses. So I think I was just in that zone of feeling quite sentimental about that. Yeah, so they came out in those paintings. Yeah. So was the whole was the rest of the collection. Yeah, it was there any about your children in there? Yeah, absolutely. So my son, Solomon, he was going, we were having a pretty hard time with him just at that particular age 14 is not fun for boys, or girls. Not all of them. He was really, he's my feisty one. He was pushing pushing buttons. And I was just like, Oh, my baby's going. And I'm finding it really hard. And so I had two paintings, which was almost called Let me go. And that was him. Basically saying to me, let me go. And the other one, which I've completely forgotten what it was called now, Archie's there's another one or two very similar. And they were both about him about pushing buttons and the push and pull. Oh, that was cool. Push and Pull. And yeah, that push and pull of wanting to him pushing us away, pulling, you know, all that sort of thing and kind of find that balance of teenagers and yeah, letting them grow into their own person. But yeah, it can be hard letting letting go too. So yeah, that was definitely about that. Yeah. I really, really enjoyed them, though. Just see. Yeah. And that's the thing like your style. Abstract. What was it? What was it? Yeah, expression is, um, I guess. I'm not an art person at all my backgrounds music, so I don't Yeah, things but it's amazing that you can, you can express how you feel, just through the strokes. Like it's not an actual depiction, you know what I mean? I just found that really amazing. I was really wrapped how they resonated with people, and even my sister who's in South Australia. And I hadn't told her anything sort of about the series was about and she's, she's in the she's got the little ones at the moment. She's got like a four year old two year old. And she's one of the pictures came up on Instagram. And she said, I just really love that it reminds me of something to do with motherhood, she said, and I said, Oh, that's amazing, because it's exactly what it's about. So that was really? Yeah, that really? Yeah, felt really great about that, that someone else could see that. Yeah, that is Oh, isn't it? Oh, it was really cool. I was talking to an artist over the weekend recording. And her style was very nice now, but it's basically like, oh, hang on, I've got to find it, or find money. Because I just didn't I just find it incredible that all the different styles that you can do, it's just me, she surrealism and symbolism. So incredible, like, you can basically look at it. And like decipher, it's a story, you know what I mean? Like, there's just, it's, it's incredible. And then oh, like for because I didn't really do art at school because I had this idea in my head that art had to be. I guess what I realized now is fine art. I suppose that's what I thought that had to fit in. So I thought, well, I can't do that. So I'm not going to do it, you know? And it's now it's like, all these different things you can do. It's just amazing. I love it. Yeah. We're often told that at school, you know, like if you can't You know, draw correctly or that sort of thing. Like, I'm not the greatest of drawers at all, you know, but I just love what I do. And, you know, don't have a big background and all that sort of real fine art sort of thing. But um, but I think that doesn't matter. Like you just go for it. If you feel passionate about it, that's the main thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's amazing the things that I'm learning doing. You were saying about how the works, you sent a manual series that are some that were inspired by Solomon. Does he know you that like, and how does he feel? He that he knew that actually, afterwards, when I showed them, show them to him. And he's the most he's really not sentimental. It's very Yeah, he's my least empathetic kind of one. And he's just kind of like, Oh, really? Oh, okay. And that's probably very, yeah, maybe later, he might sort of that might just touch him. And I know, he was sort of touch but he's not want to be gushy. And yeah. He was just like, Oh, Mom. Yeah, so yeah. Not not the biggest sort of reactions on AI, but that's the thing. I've got a 13 year old. So we're sort of into that territory. And, yeah, yeah, it's just the poor kids. It's like the hormones ago now. Adjusting because here in South Australia, next year is different. But this year was the last year that year eight was the first year of high school. Next year, they're going to take them for me seven. So he's just started high school this year, and just the whole transition of that entire different world and how you move school, and it's like, it's not such a big jump. And I think that's why I'm being so nervous about him going into high school, just because I just know how much change there is. And just how much they're exposed to. You've tried to sort of keep them a little bit sort of contained. And yeah, that's it. Yeah. All of a sudden, there's just this whole world to just, you know, get them through it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's sort of it's funny, like, when, when I had them as babies, it's like you, you think this is going to be the hardest part. But then when they grow up? And I remember people saying that to me, you know, just make the most of it. And, you know, because it goes so fast. And then there's a teenage years, and I'm just thinking, oh, yeah, but I, you know, I do can't wait until they can do this and can't wait until they can do that. And then now I'm the person saying, Make the most of it goes really fast. I mean, yeah, yeah. And I wish I you know, like everyone, you do wish that you sort of could go back and sort of just really slow down. Yeah, and because, especially with my older two, I was young, I was young, I had all the energy, but I didn't have the patience as much. And then with Solomon, there was an eight year gap between the middle one and him. And I was quite, I was a lot more relaxed with him and a lot more patient, but he just wanted to grow up. And, you know, I was trying to keep him back. Like he started walking at nine months. I'm like, no, no, no, I was ready to go, ready to go. And of course, having the older siblings, he was just wanting to always be ahead. And I was, you know, so there. can't do much about that. But yeah, I did try to be a lot more relaxed and appreciating it. Definitely, especially those early months of newborn and I just tried to go really slow and enjoy it so you touched on briefly, we sort of talked about the identity shift and how you used your art to sort of work through that and I guess you've you've used it in other times, like you're talking about you your series that you've done, the new the push and the pull and letting go has it been really sort of integral to you to work through it in that way like that's been your outlet and your I don't want to say coping mechanism but you know, part of the tools that you've used to help you through different I think so and also I might own mother as well. And my own parents, I think dealing. My actually my, my new series I'm working on is sort of more about childhood as well. But you know, it's my children, I guess reminding me about things that happened to me in some way. Yeah, so I had a little bit of a, an up and down childhood, you know, parents divorcing early and to and fro and all that sort of thing. And yeah, I think it is, it is definitely a coping mechanism, I think is, again, cliche. People go, oh, when you get older, you really, when you think all the things from the past that you've pushed aside, just come out, like, whatever. I really do, and it sucks. Yeah. And I think is, as your kids get older or dear, it just reminds you of things. And maybe it's a way of holding on to them, as well. I'm not sure it's a bit confusing, really. But yeah, at the moment, it is sort of, I guess, just remembering how things were, and as a child, but also maybe appreciating how much how much what my parents would have gone through as well. So just relating it all back to that as well. So yeah, that's really interesting. Is it time you sort of you give your parents a bit of a bad rap, don't you? Sort of Yeah. And then when you experience it yourself, you sort of get ah, I can, okay. Like I had, like my stepmother. She was only in her mid 20s. And all of a sudden, she just had a one year old. And then she had three older kids like my dad. Yeah. And, you know, she just kind of the best way she could, she was quite firm, and strict, and, but that's probably the only way she could have could have done it. But I also learned so much from her. She's really industrious, and she's creative as well. We'll craft broidery, things like that. So always surrounded by she had a huge influence Actually, me on my life. This is a really industrious woman. My mother, my mother has bipolar. So she just growing up with that around to she didn't really ever get to do never worked. Because she was always really struggling. So I never had that sort of other influences. Um, woman that was working and doing things and juggling children all the time. Yeah. Huge impact on me. So yeah, so she really did. I don't think that was the question you asked. Oh, I can't really we just go off in our directions. So very, Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Other words, the was a big influence also on me. Just she was always another she was in. She didn't work. When she was younger, she did. She was a nurse and all sorts of things. But she was always creative, too. She She painted. So played the piano, cooking that certain too. So yeah, always that sort of always influenced on me as well. I wonder if women in that era would have felt the same sort of guilt that we feel now? Like, yeah, been a thing for them at all. Or it was just my grandmother's that era? Yeah. Yeah, I don't think so. I think because it was just the norm. You know, the mother stayed home. And that's just the norm. Yeah. Back then. Maybe they actually maybe it was the reverse. Maybe it was almost like if they were working. They felt the guilt of going to work. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Honestly, it's something that it's just a whole huge big thing. Like the guilt. It's just and I feel like, I don't know. I mean, everyone experiences it differently, or experiences or doesn't experience it, you know, and that's, it's so interesting. Like, no, I would I agree, man. The guilt I'm such an overthinking anyway, that I constantly analyzing everything. And motherhood and how you bring up your children. Am I doing it right the right way? And my Should I've done this and I try not to look back too much. Because really, you've got no control over that. But you just, you got to just try and do the best that you can in with what you've got, basically. But yeah, the mother guilt of putting yourself you know, ahead of you children sometimes. I've definitely learned over time not to have that quite so much. I think as the kids were younger I did. But especially that like when my youngest son in high school, I was like, No, you know what, I'm, I'm okay, I deserve to have some allocated time. And to actually let the whole family know, right, well, this is actually something that's really important to me, and I'm going to make this happen. And it was actually really nice to see the support that they gave me too. Right? Yeah, no, really, even my, my middle boyfriend, he would say he was actually said to me, I'm, I mean, really inspiring me with the work that you're doing. And, you know, that's the biggest compliment ever. And my husband's really supportive as well just, you know, constantly telling me that he's proud of me, which is really lovely. That definitely helps with not feeling guilty. Compliments. Yeah. But um, you know, especially like, I work as well. So you are juggling quite a few things. My studio is now home, which during lockdown that happened, which was really good, because I did that guilted me leaving the house. Because sometimes my son would call up my youngest and go, Oh, Mom, where are you? Have you got any food for this? And this and I'll have, can you can you give me this to eat? And you know, just you know, it was always about food? Um, yeah, so I'm at home now, which is lovely, because he can just come in coming in. And while I'm here, I can have a chip, especially during lockdown when we're all at home again. That was really important. I felt quite good doing that. Yeah, yes. That works. That's been working really? Well. Yeah, that's great. It's interesting. You say like, when you communicated that, this is what you're gonna do? It was like everyone went, Oh, good. Okay. You know, everyone's really clear on what's happening. Like you said, they can support you. I think there's a lot to be said for that, like actually articulating what you need. This is, this is what I'm going to be doing. Yeah, cuz I don't know that we do that enough. Probably years ago, I could have done it. Yeah. And I probably would have been still fine. But maybe it's just my, as a mom thinking, I shouldn't look and allow myself to or they should just know what's going on in my mind. Like, hello. What really, you know, see, I'm trying to do all these things. Doesn't Yeah. Doesn't make sense to you that that's what I want to keep doing instead of actually, like you said, articulating it and actually saying it out loud. So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a real a real woman thing. I think, I don't think anyone would ever be afraid to just come in and say, right, this is what I'm doing. Okay. I think we're concerned about other people, because we're, you know, we're looking at for the ones in our care, are they going to be okay, you know, maybe worried about offending people or, you know, our own feelings of guilt. I shouldn't be doing this, you know, just like, just take the bull by the horns and go, right, this one I'm gonna do just set it out. Exactly. Exactly. So you know, no, that's absolutely the way to go. I think. Yeah, the needs to be flexible, you know? And be available, like, especially with a teenager. Yeah, just just being available. Not even that even like my 25 year old daughter was having a moment the other day, and she just said, you know, drop things and be ready to have a chat and that sort of thing, too. So, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, you're always gonna be sort of juggling that role. You you might be doing your art or your whatever your interest. Is this at a moment's notice. quickly swap perhaps over and off you go in Monroe. It is yeah, it is. And that can be quite exhausting. It's exhausting doing that, you know, like you do. Yeah, I think you have to allow yourself rest. I think that's an important part of even the art practice. I've sort of learned that in the last year really only the last year of saying, Okay, I'm not going to feel guilty about even just resting and just thinking about At my art or just take taking some time away from it even just to refresh, refresh your brain. Yeah, that's, that's really true, isn't it? Because it would be like in any sort of creative pursuit? You're not. You're not always, you know, in that space all the time that you just, you know, it goes in, in waves, I suppose. And to recognize that and go, Okay. I'm just gonna step away for a bit. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's necessary. Yeah, for sure. So you were talking about the series that you're working on at the moment? Is that what I can see behind you? Is that the little? Yeah. Yeah. So they're all on, like, recycled upcycle bits of timber. Yeah. And this is paper. So I've done some acrylic on paper. And then I've actually added collage, and I've got all these are crayons, actually, and pasta pens. So it's all about I sort of had this. I kept thinking about all these images of sort of old buildings and the feeling of the heat in the Adelaide Hills, because that's where I grew up. We lived on a property and my my stepmother was growing lavender and all sorts of things. And we had cows and we were always sort of out and about. We made mud bricks. So lots of lots of things that you were always using your hands. So the house was all hand built. I didn't do a great deal, because I was pretty lazy. And I hated the heat. So we're always doing this stuff. And I was always really hot and but they just kept doing it. And I really, you know, looking back I saw appreciate even being whatever I was involved in, but I do know that I was constantly come on Elisa sitting around and I was just like, Oh, but I even though at the time, I didn't appreciate it. I look back now and just think, Wow, that was such a fantastic experience. I know it was a lot of hard work, having property and all the things that they did. But it's really influenced me. We had just just sheds and anything like that I've just been really attracted to we would go on family holidays, and we'd stay and we'd go to the country and stay in old like I remember saying this massive old house and Bera you know, but my fascination was the actual building. And so I've just sort of been working through what all that means. And I think it is the stability of those structures and the longevity of them. Things that are built with your hands and how you know how meaningful that is. It lasts a lifetime. And I think I had a lot of sort of up and down in my childhood. So there was a bit of to and fro with my mother back and forth with my dad and I actually lived my grandparents for a year when I was about nine. So I think all these things around me that I absorbed is, is which is what made me feel grounded. And it's just come back up again. And so that's sort of what I'm working on at the moment is just how that's all influenced me, like all the structures and even the summer heat and the gun trees. And yeah, all these memories. I've just been looking through old photographs and just working through that. So yeah, yeah. So even though I, as a child, I feel a bit unsettled. They're the things I've gravitated to. So yeah, I want to try. I want to try and make sure it's a positive way of remembering things even though there was other things going on in the background that might have been negative or hard. As a child. I'm just trying to find those little strengths of positivity. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes perfect sense. When you were just talking about that. It reminded me I'm not sure if you're into or heard of the chakras, like the chakras of the Oh my son's really into that my my finger He's just a hippie. He loves all that stuff. Yeah, he's telling he's been telling me a bit about that. So yeah, yeah, cuz when you were saying about that you needed to feel grounded. The things that you're talking about doing things with your hands, and like, the earth, and heat are all related to the base chakra, which is basically the one that keeps you grounded. That solid and all this other stuff might be going on. Yeah, and it's this, this core, this, it's basically your, it's in your, like, right down in your tailbone. So it's like, if you're seated, it's the part of your body. That's, that's touching the earth. And it just seemed to I just made that connection, as you were saying. Fascinating. Yeah. That's amazing. I have to look into that a bit more, actually. Yeah, I think it's that going into your own little bubble. Maybe that's even why I loved it as a kid, you sort of looking at everything else. And you're in your own little world. I mean, I used to even if my bedroom was my sanctuary, you know, as sort of that 12 1314. And I'd be constantly like, I painted and I'd be like, setting it all up in different ways all the time. And at one point, we lived in this little house, and I had to share a bedroom with my sister. And we're quite different bit of an age gap. And anyway, I was desperate for my own space. And we had this little hallway, like a little entryway that we never used, we would always go the back door. So I decided that I was going to set myself up in this entryway. Yes, I was so desperate for my own space. And literally, I could fit a chest of drawers. I had a hook for my school uniform, and I had a bed I posted around and that's where I slept. I don't even know how long I slept there for I think eventually they got a caravan and I slipped in the caravan. I asked permission I think I just did it. I was just so yeah, so definitely having my own space and I'd sit in there and I do whatever, you know, beading even you know necklaces and all I think I was into that at that time and yeah, so definitely, yeah, yeah, going into your own space Yeah. I remember helping my dad, Bertha lamb, you know, things like that we, you know, had animals and yeah, now I'd be like freaked out by that. But I'm really thankful for those experiences, because some are in my own kids haven't experienced things like that. So we're pretty, pretty lucky. Really? Yeah. Let's see, it's all about perspective. Yeah, yeah, just the way that you look at things. You could you could say it as negatives, but you've chosen to look at them as positives. That's yeah. And I think it is all coming out like because my kids are older. And what my youngest is. Yeah, just getting to that towards that end of high school heading towards their family a few more years left. So yeah, makes you just reassess things and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that's it isn't it? It's like the these these particular moments that adopted throughout your life we have take stock and you know, recess and yeah. Do you think you stay at keeping your studio in your home? Or I actually think I just be really nice, like, even have an evening I can just go in there whereas I wasn't taking advantage of going have an evening where I was. And I'm quite a homey person. So I do really enjoy that. Yeah, so I think it'll just make me let me use the time a bit more wisely. In your face. So you know, if you've got it, all of a sudden, you just want to come in and quickly do something you can and then got blown working on cooking. I can go in and do something. And that's, that's perfect. That's how I've always done it. I don't even know what else you know, like that is how I've always done it. It's always in between life. Yeah. Yeah. The project that you're working on at the moment, is that do you have like a end goal? You're going to exhibition? Next year? Yeah. Is it gonna be going? This one might be I haven't got anything go. It's just a little series that I just thought I'd launch all together. Okay, I just have to find a graphic. Basically, it's finished. So just that next step, and then putting it on website. And that's, that's the part it's boring. But yeah, it is. And it's called memories are made. So it's basically they're made in your mind, but they're also made with your hands. Yeah. So hopefully, yeah, in the next week, maybe I can get my act together. Though, there'll be up so yeah. And it's something I haven't done before. I've got lots of little pieces on blocks of wood. And yeah, so we'll just see, I've really enjoyed doing it. So we'll see how it all goes. I'm thinking you're probably having an open studio in a couple of weeks. So that probably pushed to finish it off. And yeah, always good to have a bit of a goal. But yeah, look next to you. Maybe I might probably like to apply to a couple of different galleries and just see, see what happens there. But yeah, I try not to think too far ahead. Otherwise, I get a bit overwhelmed. And that stops the stops the making. Yeah, so that's the plan so far. Sounds good. Yeah, I responded quite well, to the materials, I guess, too. But this will just happen because we had some all these off cuts of timber and things and our families upcycle timber, and I was like, Oh, that will really look cool with this and just just having a go. Yeah, yeah. Other ideas I've been making. I made some paper mache bowls as well, a while ago, which I again, I'd like to sort of experiment with too. So too many ideas. There are the I love all these podcasts. And it's been fantastic. Listening to two other moms and how they all do it. And it's really, really good. So Oh, thank you for coming on. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much, Alison. Thanks so much for listening today. We'll be taking a well earned rest over the festive season and be back early in the new year. Have a great Christmas if you celebrate it, and we'll see you in 2022