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Ayla Simone Australian fiction author S3 Ep85 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Ayla Simone is my guest this week, Ayla is a contemporary fiction author and digital copywriter and a mum of 2 from Brisbane , QLD, Australia. Ayla grew up writing, but like many creatives, couldn't see how writing was going to be full time job. She turned instead to marketing, content creation and copywriting to utilize her creativity. She began writing her debut novel Marigold Milk when her her son was a baby, he was a contact napper and she would write while he was napping on her lap, using her phone to write. Marigold Milk drops the reader into a tumultuous and trans-formative time of Mariella Gold’s life. Grief-stricken by the loss of a child, Mariella loses her floristry business and applies for a nannying position with a twist. The unusual and lucrative role sees her helping care for the baby of widowed local doctor, Dr Jamie North. The job is a welcome escape from the despair of her lifeless marriage, but Mariella is surprised to even find joy and purpose with Jamie and his son, in a way she couldn’t have expected. Ayla has 2 more books in the works and her work aims to examine themes of modern life that are often silenced within us; with a particular focus on women and motherhood. **This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss and wet nursing** Ayla - instgram / book Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered, while trying to be a mum and continue to create your hair themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you are all around the world. My guest today is ala Simone. ALA is a contemporary fiction author and digital copywriter from Brisbane in Queensland, and she's a mom of two. I grew up writing but like many creatives couldn't see her writing was going to be a full time job. She turned instead to marketing, content creation and copywriting to utilize her creativity. I began writing her debut novel marigold milk when her son was a baby. He was a contact Napper and she would write while he was napping on her lap using her fine marigold milk drops the reader into a tumultuous and transformative time have Mariela gold's life. grief stricken by the loss of a child, Mariela loses her floristry business and applies for a nanny position with a twist. The unusual and lucrative role sees her helping to care for the baby of a widowed local doctor. The job is a welcome escape from the despair of her lifeless marriage, and she is surprised to find joy and purpose with the new doctor and his son. In a way she could never have expected. Ayla has two more books in the works. And her work aims to examine themes of modern life that are often silenced within us, and a particular focus on women and motherhood. This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss and witnessing. Hi, Isla, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to welcome you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. So we're about to you leaving. I'm in Brisbane in the suburbs. Lovely. Yeah. My sister spent a bit of time up in Brisbane few years ago, and we went to visit it the first time I'd ever been up there. I just loved it. It reminded me of like, be like Adelaide with it sort of easygoing, but the weather being a lot better. I just found everyone was so friendly. And it's just a really lovely place. It is quite like a small town. Most of my family's in Melbourne. So going to Melbourne. It's like wow, this is a big city. Brisbane, you probably feel similar seems Adelaide. It's more laid back. Yeah. Very hot out here though. Yeah. Now and because you guys don't have daylight savings. Do you know? Yeah, because that was something I noticed when I was up there. How it got early. So like got bright and light so early. And it was just that okay, we're up. Yeah. On the flip side, you go to some of these daylight savings and the kids don't want to go to sleep until like nine or 10 o'clock because it's bright. Yes. That's that's us at the moment. It's like half past eight. Oh, maybe even caught nine before it gets dark. So they're just like, but it's too late outside. We don't know like I've got nothing left. You have to do it. Yeah, that was literally my last night because the bubblegum back to school today. Down here. So last night, the day please just go to sleep. I see a great day for you that it's a wonderful day is such a nice day. It's just nice to have done the school drop off and then just go do something that doesn't involve looking after other people. And the silence when you leave them and it's like I don't have to talk to anyone for a little while. Yes. Gosh, yeah, you take it for granted. You really do. Yeah, yeah. You're an author, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into writing? Is it something that you've always done? Like as a kid growing up? Yeah, writing has always sort of been my thing, I guess I remember in primary school, going to little writing camps. And in high school, I was in, you know, the kind of extension English writing thing. And that was my thing. Like, I could not do math to save my life at all. Writing has been, it's like, probably close. Next, I was like, Oh, I can do this. Yeah, and I've always loved writing, I always wanted to write a book. Yeah, and I've just finally now done it, I think some probably other people in the arts can relate to this, you have an interest in something creative. And growing up, there's a lot of noise around, okay, but you've got to kind of make that a job where you can actually make a living, you know, for the kind of consumer society you can't, you know, you can't cut off into the woods and write a book. Like, that's not what you're going to do. So yeah, I've done marketing and content creation and copywriting. So I guess that's how I kind of made it a job. And then, yeah, recently got to what I wanted to do originally, which is writing a book, congratulations. That's pretty exciting. Yeah, that that theme of, of sort of putting your passion on the back burner, or like, in your case, in many others, to finding a way to sort of slightly incorporate that into their, like, paid job. It's such a common theme, just, you know, parents will be like, oh, you know, how you're gonna pay the bills, you know, that's not a real job, all that sort of stuff. And then they find themselves coming back to it, you know, as an adult, because you just cannot you get to where we cannot not do it, you know, it's like, yeah, it just makes you do it. So, tell us about your book. Well, my food, I feel like this is a common theme with authors. Or it might just be me because I'm a shy author. But when someone asks, What's your book about? That's like the worst question. Oh, amazing. Like hard to condense? Yeah, probably. So in like internal. But basically, it's about a main character. And she's just lost a baby. And then she's lost her business, and her husband of 10 years has turned on her and become a really awful person in her life. So she's desperate to find a purpose. And she decides that she wants to donate her breast milk online after hearing about it from a friend. And then she meets with a widowed man who's just lost his wife. So he has a baby to feed, and he's desperate for help as well. And he asked her to fulfill the quite unusual position these days of being a witness for his baby. And the reason behind that is the baby has a lot of allergies, and he's really struggling, you know, to find something that will help his baby be healthy. So she's sort of propelled by her grief and wanting to escape her household situation, and she accepts it and joins his family. And she starts to find purpose and happiness again, but then sort of the truth of her own motherhood. And what has happened in her past starts to unravel slowly, she has to kind of face her demons and see if she can overcome them to find her own purpose in life again. Yeah, right. That's a really cool storyline, like, Yeah, that's really cool. I don't usual when I started writing it, I, it was kind of the whole point was, you know, I was at home with my baby nursing writing. I was just thinking, I've never read a book, really, where there's a character, even books that have mothers, there's not really a character that mentioned, you know, the breastfeeding the nursing or, you know, feeding the baby. It's not something that's mentioned that often and for me, at least, it's like a huge part of being a mum, like, I mean, no matter how you feed your baby, especially at the start, you're spending hours every day, like feeding your baby, whether it's a bottle, you're breastfeeding them to hear. So I sort of wanted to incorporate that and I started writing it as historical fiction, because, you know, witnesses that was an old time. Yeah, but then I think it was like 20,000 words, then I'll say is this isn't gonna really help Modern mothers like this is, you know, a historical story. But if I was to kind of juxtapose that with modern times, where it actually makes it something a little shocking to some people, I'm sure. I think it has more value for mothers to kind of read it in a modern setting. Yeah, cuz I was gonna ask you sort of what you said. Yeah. And for those who don't know, a witness, basically is it's a mother who's lactating who feeds another mother's child, basically. Yeah. And in my story, I've been very careful to not not to say this. It's not just, I wouldn't even say it's the central theme of the story. And I think that was important. For me, for Mother's reading it, it's not the hero of the story is not that she breastfeeds a child. And it's definitely not the villain of the story. And it doesn't ruin anything for her. It's something very special. And that's highlighted. But yeah, it's not the be all end all, she has so many other facets to her other than that she's feeding a baby. But the fact that her client kind of needed her to do that to help him. But it also very much helped her because she was grieving the loss of a child. You know, if you lose a baby quite late, you may lactate. So this is what's happening to this character. And I think it's just been a huge comfort for her that she could use that milk. For your identity was important for you to keep that writing process going when you had your children. Yes, it definitely. I mean, I write quite a lot in my job. But to have that sort of also, hobby creative writing is so important. And I feel so much better. You know, I've had a bit of time to write, and usually, actually always my writing time, like, in bed with a baby on me writing on Google docs on my phone, how I wrote this book, the whole thing. So you know, it's just fit in somewhere. But then the rest of the afternoon is like, ah, you know, I've done something for myself. Yeah, it can be a better mother for it. Definitely. And I have a, I have a baby, but I also have a seven year old. So it's been pretty cool. telling her about the book and her seeing it and see like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a book. Like she's so excited. So that yeah, that is awesome. That is really cool. Do you sort of feel like it's important that, that your seven year old sees you as something else other than as a mother? You know, you're still you're still a person that does things in the world? Yeah, definitely. And maybe that's why it was even more surprising to her. I sort of said to her while I was writing it, like, oh, I mean, writing this story. I think I might actually get it published into a book. And it's that sort of an abstract idea or seminar or like, What do you mean? Like, you know, not Roald Dahl. You can't write a book. And then when it arrived nice, she showed her Yeah, cuz you're gonna face like, wow, my mom like does stuff other than look after us? Yeah. Yeah. Especially for a little girl. Like, I don't want her to think she'll have kids one day. And that's it, like hanging off your cowboy boots. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Other aspects to a woman obviously. Didn't know that. That's really cool. I love that. And I sort of feel like that with my sons. It's like, it's for them as they grow up to be able to respect a woman as other things apart from just having children. You know, like, I feel like there's, there's certainly a, you know, that misogynistic sort of element to society that, you know, like you said, you take a few breaks, you're done. Yeah, it's really important. Yeah, absolutely. So How old's your youngest? He's 16 months. So he actually a toddler is probably my last one. So it's me. He's a baby. Yeah, love. So when did you start writing when just when he was really, when he was really a baby? Both my kids have been contacted snafus. So, you know, stuck in bed for hours. And I think he was just a few months old me scrolling Facebook, whatever. It's like why why don't I do something that's actually going to benefit my mental health and you know, if I can turn into something my future So yeah, I just started writing the story and I just loved it and every naptime occasionally after bedtime, that's just what I've done. Yeah. That's awesome. So sorry, I didn't say the book's title. It's Marik old milk. So I'm guessing marigold is the main character. Her name is Mariela gold. Right? Yeah, that's very gold comes up because she had a floristry business that gets shut down. And one of the other characters says to her, Oh, like, Why didn't you call it you know, something like marry gold, because your name makes up Mary gold. And that's sort of a pivotal moment. And then after that, marigolds kind of pop up through the story as symbolism for how her story is unfolding. So yeah, let's go. How did you come up with the idea? Was that just something that came to you? Or are you like, are you really into flowers and flowers? And I love symbolism. So I think it didn't come quite organically. I wrote her in as a florist. I think I've always been fascinated by forestry. Like, it's just such a beautiful art to work in. Yeah. And then as kind of the marigold play on words came up, it all just started unfolding. And I've planned out my next few books, and they're both flower related as well. Sort of like the same, the next two books? I mean, I don't want you to give any secrets away. Are they an extension of marigold story? Are they just brand new characters? Well, I didn't want to write a sequel. I'm not sure why I just prefer a standalone story. And it is quite closed books. And when it finishes, it's kind of like, okay, this story is done nice and late, really tied up. But I have made the next few books have a slight overlap in characters. So there's sort of like a very sideline character in Marigold, milk. And then the next book is her story. So they sort of mentioned each other, which I think is a cute little tie in. But that I mean, the stories are not related at all. The next book is actually got nothing to do with motherhood, or babies or anything, which has actually been really fun. It's like, oh, this is really an escape. I'm writing like a 30 Something single spinster with a cat and like I'm on it. Anything. It's sort of like you're living in this universe, what could have happened? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was. What's it like the process to get a book published? Well, I mean, it's different for everyone, there is the traditional publishing route, which I dabbled with. And then I think I read so much about it from other authors. I was just scared out of it. And it might be something I pursue in the future. But it's a very lengthy process, you've kind of got to find an agent. And then once you've got an agent, they contact the publishing houses and then even if you do get a deal, you usually have to wait like two or three years before your book is actually out there. Yeah, and I think because I spent just like day after day, hours and hours writing this book, when it was finished, I was like, No, I'm getting this out there. This on me anymore. I need to get it done so I can move on to the next thing. No, I ended up self publishing my book which has been really interesting and exciting thing. Yesterday it's amazing how accessible it is to publish a book now. Yeah, quite simple. This we have this topic that I love to talk about to all my guests and I put it in air quotes, the old mum guilt. What is your take on that? I do remember after I had my first baby, another mum made a throwaway comment something like Oh, yes, you'll you know, you'll have mom guilt. It's always they're always going to feel guilty, you know, doing anything, right. And I remember at the time, my baby was about six months old, and I was I really couldn't relate to what she was saying. Maybe just the naivety of it. You know, as kind of like, I know, I'm doing everything I can for this baby. I don't feel guilty. Everything's great. But sort of since I've had the second and it might be about you There's more of a juggle, because you know, especially with the age gap, I have this seven year old that wants to chat all day and make bracelets and little intricate things. And then I have this 16 month old boys just destroying everything. And I yeah, I have definitely found now a bit of mum guilt. This is like, there's not enough of you to go around at all. But I wouldn't say ever feel guilty about writing or doing things like that for myself. And it might be because it's so limited. Like, you know, I'm not going down to get a pedicure. And you know, I haven't much time. And that's my little bit of time that I do that. So I think I feel pretty good about it. Now good on Yeah, I love hearing those answers. And it's the sort of thing, everybody has a different take on it. And I think that's why I love talking about it, because I just love hearing, you know, the differences in the variances and yeah, I love that I had, I think I've had two guests that didn't even know what it was at all. And as the hell no, I can relate to that. They is sort of the age gap. You have to I've got seven years between my two. And they have their moments they they fight like cats and dogs sometimes. Yeah, they both have cute moments. They don't they? Ah, yeah. is lovely to watch it really? Yeah. I think it's nice having a child that's old enough to remember their sibling getting born and things like that. I reckon that's pretty cool is lovely. Although I don't know about your children, but my older child remembers being an only child. So she's sort of like, she brings me photos of us just my her dad and I and her together on holidays. She's like, so can we leave Leo somewhere? And like do that again? Probably not like his duty a little brother. Oh, God. That's hilarious. I love that. Yeah, that's good. I've never actually thought about that. I should ask I'll make a note to ask at least. Yeah. Yeah, it's good fun. So something else I'd like to talk about is sort of the cultural norms of, you know, the traditional roles of the mother and the father and who goes to work and who stays home? And what role modeling did you have about what a mother could look like when you were growing up? Didn't sort of inspired you to do what you're doing? Well, I would say my family unit when I was growing up is quite different to probably what my now family unit is in that it was very traditional. So my mum was basically home with us, I think, till I started primary school. So we very much had, like the mother at home and the dad, you know, that went to work. And my mom was just excellent at being you know, a stay at home mom is baking and cooking and my memory always seem to be cheery and happy to play with us, which is a hard thing to aim for. Yeah, whereas it might be a little bit because of what my job is like, I know I can do my job on my phone or on my laptop home anywhere. With both kids. I've gone back into some kind of from home work within six months to a year of having them. So although I am staying at home, just like my mom did, I think yeah, I'm I don't have the mental space to be like babe. Yeah, if anything. Yeah, I wish I was a bit more like my mum. But I think the times have very different now. You can't really you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't now, basically, you know, if I was staying at home not working, I'm sure someone would have something to say about that. Or if I was working full time putting the kids in daycare, you know, that would also be mortifying for some people. So yes, just trying to strike a balance in these crazy modern times, isn't it? Yeah, I think yeah, we're all just doing the best we can out we like have no there's so much. I think that's where a lot of people do feel the mum guilt is like the judgment of others that someone's comment will make you feel bad about yourself. But you know, deep down like you said before, about you know, you you know you're doing the best you can you know, you you're giving your children everything you can. So it's these sort of offhand flippant remarks, and really make us question ourselves and it's like social media makes it even worse when you see your people doing whatever and you think, oh, I should be doing that or I shouldn't be doing that or whatever. You know that Yeah, should Africa. Yeah. And that's a big part of, I guess why I wanted to include a little like reality about motherhood and breastfeeding, that sort of thing in my book, because also similar with that breastfeeding, sort of damned if you do damned if you don't, as well, you know, as a mother, you might feel so ashamed to try to breastfeed your kid in public. But then you'll be, like, equally ashamed to go and buy it in a formula. There's no winning in our society, you can't do the right thing. So yeah, I just wanted I guess, to include a little reality where kind of bubbles under the surface of the rest of her story. And it's not the be all end all, but it's quite, I would say, it's quite realistic for the story, which I think is helpful for young women because, like, I'm a 90s, baby my, like growing up seeing moms in media, it was like Rachel on friends. Yeah. Babies represented like they would come into the apartment and just look at this baby sleeping in the cot by itself and like, Oh, that's a cute baby. Like, that is so not what happened for me, baby. Well, why wasn't Rachel contact? Nothing? Or like having vomit all over her? Like, where was your reality? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I'm having my first baby. I just was so oblivious. I had no idea what to expect. So, yes, a bit of reality, I think is nice. Yes, I can relate to that. It's like you see people with babies and you hear you hear stories and and you just have no, you really have no idea, do you? Like even if someone tells you, you don't really even listen, because you're just not even in that headspace. Like, you just don't take it in. And that's probably how human race continues to reproduce. If you really took it in and you knew what it would be like, you might not want to do that. That's just surgery. Want to ask you just you just piqued my interest with something with marigold in the book. Does she copy any flack from other characters in the book about her choice to be the witness? Yes. So she does not actually tell her husband, her husband and her have quite a toxic relationship. So she's sort of jumped at the opportunity to move in with this doctor to help his child. But she tells her husband, she's just a live in nanny, because she knows he would be, you know, really weirded out by that. And within the actual household that she moves into. He also has a sort of housekeeper that helps with cooking and stuff while he works. And she's very judgmental of marigolds. So she's, you know, sort of like, you're getting paid, you know, this obscene amount of money to lay around breastfeeding a baby. So she thinks it's just ridiculous and thinks they should have tried harder to find the right formula and all this sort of thing. So yeah, she definitely faces quite a lot of backlash. And also sort of she has an inner dialogue going, this is just bizarre, like, what am I doing? I've just lost a baby. And now I'm in someone else's house, breastfeeding their baby who's pretty much the same age as what her baby would have been at that point. So yeah, it's a very conflicting position she's in. Yeah, that would be Yeah, like she she would she'd just think this is really weird. What am I doing and made me feel really uncomfortable physically about doing it, but then at the same time, it would just give us so much. I don't know, comfort, I guess. But at the same time, could be also then. A bit weird to that she's imagining it's her own child. I don't know. There's so many. Yeah, there, isn't it? Yeah, there are definitely little moments like that. And it's been so touching. I've had a few reviews from mothers that have read it. And you know, I've had one who is breastfeeding, I believe her toddler. And she was just like, oh my gosh, I feel so seen like, I've never read a book where that you actually, you know, the actual latching on and everything like you actually know what the baby's doing. I've never read that. And I was like, that's amazing. And I had another review, which just made me cry or mother that has two healthy kids, but she lost a baby in between them. And she was just, you know, so thankful that I included that in the story and I've been careful not to. I guess I didn't delve too deeply into it because I haven't experienced it myself. So I was really hesitant to go far into one What happened, you know, kind of doesn't really say exactly what happened. It's really in the background. But I have tried really hard to include, you know, the emotions of what she's gone through. And the most important part for me was giving her a story where she finds purpose again, she finds happiness. And although you know, the pain of that will never go away. She does continue on in her life, which hopefully is comforting for people. Because it's such such a common thing that women go through. And it's not. Isn't I've never read it in a book personally. So yeah, just think that argument is fantastic. Good. Only fintona? Did you did you feel torn at any stage about not writing it in that way? Would you think that this is I'm doing it like this? I was told there was a little while where I thought, you know, I haven't experienced this. Maybe it's the wrong thing to write about it. You know, maybe she gave her baby up for adoption or something like that. But then I thought, you know, there's, there's a lot more women that can relate to this story. And it would be I think, a lot more helpful for women, if that's just what happens. So just stuck with it. And hopefully, I've done it justice. It sounds like from the from the feedback you've had that's really positive. Well done, that's awesome. So tell us where people can get the book. Yes. So right now it's available on Amazon. So it's available as a Kindle ebook, or it's available as a paperback so you can get either format. And I'm this year, I'm getting it into a few more physical stores in Brisbane, it will be available at a little shop called marigold house coincidentally. So that was a very happy coincidence and that it'll be available from next week there that's in the gap in Brisbane. And then yeah, hopefully a few more physical bookstores as the year goes on, which is exciting. Fantastic. Marigold milk, buy a list of mine on Amazon. Yeah, that's where it is. Awesome. Well, I'll put some hyperlinks in the show notes so people can click away and Oh, great. Awesome. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. It's really lovely. It was lovely. To talk to an adult. It's really it's been a lovely experience for me just to be able to do something about my children. Happy first day of school. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Tamara Seeley Australian singer songwriter S4Ep98 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Tamara Seeley a singer and songwriter from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mum of 2. Tamara has been a singer since the age of 15, crediting her Scottish heritage as what brought her to singing as well as The Bodyguard movie. After leaving school she went to Melbourne to start her training, from then she has spent time living and performing in London, Doha and South Korea, being flown to from London to New Zealand to act in a commercial and performing on the Disney Cruise Ship in the Carribean Islands. Oh and she sang back up vocals for Right Said Fred of 90s "I'm too Sexy' fame and was an extra in a Bollywood movie too! Her philosophy at that time was to try anything she had the opportunity to. Tamara has 4 releases under her belt, her 2015 EP Gold Armour, singles Eileen and Old Skool Love, and her latest release of a 10 year special remix of her track Release Me which is out now. Even though she has seen some amazing places and travelled so widely, amongst her proudest career achievements is recording and producing her music video for her latest single in home town of Mount Gambier, a regional town of but 28000 people. Tamara - facebook / instagram / music Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it Welcome to another episode of the podcast it is so great to be back for episode 98 Lovely to welcome you from wherever you are around the world. My guest this week is Tamara Seeley. Tamara is a singer and songwriter from Matt Gambia in South Australia and she's a mom of two. Tamara has been a singer since the age of 15. crediting her Scottish heritage is what brought her to singing as well as Whitney Houston in The Bodyguard movie. After leaving school, she went to Melbourne to start her training. From there she spent time living and performing in London, Doha and South Korea. She's been flown from London to New Zealand to act in a commercial and she's performed on the Disney cruise ship in the Caribbean islands. And she sang backup vocals for right said Fred of 90s IMT sexy fame and was an extra in a Bollywood movie to her philosophy at that time was trying anything that she had the opportunity to, and she certainly did that. Tamara has four releases under her belt, her 2015 EP gold armor, singles Eileen and old school love and her latest release of a 10 year special remix of her track release me which is out now. Even though Tamara has seen some amazing places and traveled so widely. She credits amongst her proudest career achievements recording and producing her latest music video in her hometown of Mount Gambia, a regional town of about 28,000 people. Hope you enjoy today's episode. You'll hear tomorrow's music featured throughout thank you again for listening. The old tree welcome, Tamara, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on today. And thank you for asking me this is my first podcast. So very excited. Even more exciting. That's awesome. And when you say thanks for asking me I have I have had you in my mind for a very long time. So I'm glad we were able to make it work. Yeah, it's great. You're actually one of the first people I thought of when I was starting to do this. And I thought Who do I know and I wanted to go with a an industry I felt comfortable with. So I was just reaching out to musicians to start with them like yep, tomorrow, tomorrow. And it's funny because I messaged you and you're like, Yeah, I'm not right now. You know, whatever was going on. And then Thankfully, he messaged me recently because I forget what's the message so thanks. And life just gets in the way cuz I think when you first asked me, I can I just had Jasper and I was working on my 90s mixtape show. So I was a bit like, Yep, it's all happening. Juggling a few things. So yeah, that's the main thing. Yes. And it's wonderful, wonderful to speak to you even though we're in the same town with zoom in it today just because it's good with the kids and in life. So making it work. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry. I have the internet. Yes. So before we jump in talk about exciting things that are happening right now. I want to go back to how did you first get into music? So my answer used to be that I stumbled into music because I came from a sporting background. So my mom's side of the family were very sporty. I was very much a tomboy. But I used to sing with my dad and my dad is Scottish. And his mother was a beautiful singer. And he was actually in a BGS tribute band. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. So when they were living in while they did a few gigs, the karaoke machine still comes out at all of their, like family dues. And like, they're just amazing singers. So I sing because of my Scottish heritage. Like, that's just I do believe that that passes through. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a I just fell into it. Like, I think there's a deeper reason as to why I got into it. I really first connected with singing when I watched the bodyguard. Oh, yeah. Right. And I heard Whitney Houston sing. And I used to sing with that, but I never thought anything of it. And then I watched that, and I was like, singing her songs. And I was like, Yeah, this is pretty cool. But I didn't come from I don't come from like a stage school background. So I didn't do a Stanford's. I wasn't in a choir. So I just didn't, didn't even think that singing could be a possibility. So I just sort of would do it in my bedroom. I know that sounds cliche, but I would just, you know, sing along. And didn't think anything of it really, until I went to boarding school in Hamilton when I was 15. And they had, like a music and drama program, which wasn't, wasn't at Tennyson at the time. And a friend of mine overheard me sing and she's like, why didn't you audition? I'm like, Well, why are you got a really good voice? And I auditioned for it and just fell in love with it ever since then. So I think I was I think I was like, 15 or 16 when I had my first Singing Lesson. Yep. Yeah. But from then I was like, No, this is what I would like to do. Yeah. So it was like it. It was like an instant, like moment of oh my gosh, like, you can all this this singing that you've done your whole life. This can actually turn into something that you do in your future. Yeah, absolutely. And I think my family would get shocked because I was quite shy as a kid. And like I said, I came from that sporting background, though to then all of a sudden, like, you know, into year 12. I was like, Mom, I'm moving to Melbourne. I'm gonna have some singing lessons. I think that's what I want to do. And that's just how I got started. Yeah, right. This to me, led me me so I can stand Yeah, what happened when you move to Melbourne had it? Because I know you've you've been overseas, you've done things like gigs on cruise ships, like how did it sort of evolved from from that point on. So when I was 18, I moved to Melbourne had singing lessons. And I just practiced so hard. I was just like, I'm just loving this. And I'm actually wanting to get back to that point. Because I feel like the better you get, the further along in your career that you get, there's like, it feels like more of a job like and just because it's your passion doesn't mean that you'd love it all the time. So I just remember like, being right in the thick of just like singing to different styles and singing in different keys and just just showing up the craft, you know, without any sort of pressure or expectation. So I just did that solid for I reckon, two or three years. And then I had spent 12 months at dance world in Melbourne. Yeah, right. Yeah. Certificate no so random. They're like, Oh, this is a really good call. Most singers like it's dancing, but it's, you know, for singers, no, it was more the other way around. And I was like, way out of my depth, but I got so much out of it. And I think I'm comfortable on stage because I did that. Yeah, right. You know, you do notice that sometimes with singers that haven't had like a movement background that they can be, you know, a bit awkward. So even though I was never going to pursue dancing, I still, I feel like that's what you have to do is you just give things a go. And that all adds to how you're shaped as an artist. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yes. And then what happened? Then, then I moved back to Matt Gambia, actually. Yeah, so I was just like, broke all the time. Like I was in between, you know, doing shitty hospitality jobs. And also, I'm just going to move home for a bit and save some money. And I remember this clear as day I was at Holies, in Kmart, the Yes. And I've run into Dennis O'Carroll, who I hadn't seen in years and I went to went to school with his daughter, Chelsea. And he's like, oh, so he, you know, you've been doing a bit of singing. He's like, go to Dale Cleves, because Nick Aslan, who's in bariatric is looking for. They're looking for a new singer. And I'd never heard of heard of bass Rec. So I dropped in my my CD with it. I think it had a Christina Aguilera cover on there. And I auditioned to be in that band. Yeah. So that was what my first first paid gig. Yeah, right. Yes. Digging in that Gambia. Yeah. I remember those days, like go down and dance it away. So much fun. It was so and it was a thriving scene. Yeah, like you could not move in fine. Again. You could not move in shadows. The Gambia like, yeah, I was gigging a lot. And I think that was just such a huge learning curve because singing into in your bedroom. singing in a band. Yeah. And some of those songs were rock. So getting your voice to cut through but still using the right technique and then throw a few drunks in the mix. You know, like it's, it's and back then. People would have been able to smoke in pubs as well. So that would have been a horrible for your voice. Yeah, like not it's survived. Just like when he did he did get shadows. I think our set started at 1230 at night. Yeah. Three to four o'clock. Oh, god. Yeah, those days are long gone. That's okay. I'm not yearning for that time even though that was awesome. I'm like the thought of doing that and then having to you know deal with two toddlers not happening Sunday session by you know, finish. Finish by for six o'clock at night. Yeah. Back home for bedtime for the kids. witching hour started. God. Yes. So, how long did you spend doing like gigging you met Gambia before you moved away again. So that was, I reckon, two years. But whilst I was here, I went in my first trip overseas and my first overseas singing gig was in South Korea. Ah, so I reckon I was 21. Yeah, where I got a job in a trio singing covers six nights or six nights a week. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. How does your voice hold up during that? Like back to back to back to back? Not too bad. Yeah. I never really I'm lucky. I think if I tried to do it now, I think I would feel like I've because I was gigging a lot down here. And doing those like big pop rock songs as well. I felt like I was good fit for it. And not all of the songs were like, say your big, big numbers. They were like, you know, sometimes more like jazz ballads. So you could sort of go easy. Yeah. There was another singer as well. So it wasn't just all on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would have been good. Old school memories and nothing like the modern days. Yeah, move back to my Gambia for 12 months. And I moved to London. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I was in London for five years. Working, you know, various jobs. I worked for the Halifax Bank of Scotland. Yeah. Right. Which ended up giving me an awesome opportunity. So every year, the Halifax Bank of Scotland would recruit colleagues for their TV commercials. TV commercials, and it used to be used to be you know, they'd get them to sing. Yep. The year that I auditioned, we had to do these stunts. I actually probably should post this advert that I was in because it was an absolute incredible experience. For us, they were like, are you scared of heights? I'm like, no, like, you know, I was quite sporty and we grew up in the country. That's not a problem. Like that's a bit random that you're asking that. Ended up getting. Getting selected to be in this TV advert got flown from London to New Zealand to film this advert. Oh, wow. And my part of the scene was leaping over these massive human pillars to pass someone a five pound note. Oh, his cat, Paula Halifax. Bank of Scotland was you know, giving you extra type thing. Oh, my God. But I had to like train for this. I worked with the stunt team that worked on Australia. Then the movie with Nicole Kidman like it was a huge production. The director has then gone on to be the director for Lion the movie. That's one? Oh, yeah. Because I've worked with him before. Like, that's what it was. Exactly like it was such an incredible experience. Yeah, I feel like I've seen it. I've recognized sight like you have shared it. And I reckon I've seen it but I can't I'm you know, vaguely remembering. So you didn't get to singing it. But you got to like throw yourself for it. Yeah, how to harness on was flying through the air. It was pretty cool. Experience. Oh, it really was like, I feel like I went to London. And I feel like I probably always had this attitude. I'm just going to show up and give things a go. You know, I was in my 20s. I was like, This is what it's all about. This is what the traveling life's all about. So I was in a Bollywood music video as an extra. Yeah, I just literally signed up to everything. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Actually studied music there as well. Yeah. Which was an incredible experience. So I did a diploma in popular music and tech, music schools, I think it's called something different now. But they also have. So they had tech vocals, drums, bass guitar. And once a week you had to, you'd have to learn a song. So the singers would have to learn the song, the drummer would have to learn the song guitar player, bass player, and you had to learn the backing vocals and you just have to get up and do it. Yeah, right. Yeah, so it was, yeah, it was pretty intense. But what a what a great discipline to be prepared. Probably lacked some of that in my early my early career not like being prepared for auditions for getting my words get becoming like overly nervous. And that was like a huge learning curve. Like not you need to learn your shit. So that when you can get up there, you can nail it, and you can be confident and I think that's the key to confidence. And this is what I when I was was teaching singing why you have to practice this, you know, you have people like, Oh, don't be nervous. Just get up there. Just be confident. Well, that doesn't really know does that. I find if I'm overly nervous about something, I've it's not the right thing, or I'm not prepared for him. Because I've made that mistake before so like I still to this day, like if I've got something coming up. I have to be prepared. Otherwise, I'll just be be an absolute wreck. Yeah, I can. I can relate to that. Like I had someone asked me once if I get nervous, and I said, I only get nervous if I don't know exactly what I'm doing. Like I feel like if you know what you're doing, and I don't know if you do this, but I visualize myself in whatever space it's going to be even if I haven't necessarily been there. I can just imagine myself being on stage. And then I sort of just feel comfortable that I know where I'm gonna be. I know what I'm doing. And so then there's really no need to feel nervous, you know, like, and that's not a conceited or an ego thing, but it's like, you know, your voice, you know what you're doing? You know? Yeah. So, yeah, but then I've heard other people say, are you if you're not nervous, it means it's not important enough to you? And it's like, well, I don't know about that, either. Because? I don't know. So yeah, I think you can channel nerve like it. I think it's normal to be nervous, but you're excited about it. Yeah. But this my moment, because I'm prepared. I've put in the work. I love to do this. And all I have to do now is be in the moment and enjoy it. Because if I'm enjoying it, everyone else is like, there's nothing worse than seeing another performer suffer on stage. And you can see it. Oh, yeah. Yes, yeah. Horrible. Because you know what that's like, you know, so it's, um, yeah, and it doesn't. And for me, it doesn't actually matter what the size of the gig is. Yeah. Yep. It's just what I have to put in place. So I can enjoy it. So I'm not an absolute, you know, nervous wreck, yeah. I'm gonna follow the slide. So we'll come back to you. other bits and bobs that you've done. But I want to ask that putting things in place. Now, as a mom of two. That would also be who's gonna look after the kids? And how am I going to rehearse when I've got two kids? Like, all that sort of stuff? Adds a massive new element to it, doesn't it? massive new element. But I think being a musician and artists, I can practice around them. Is it easy? No, it is not. You get to grab the moments when they're there. But yeah, I just do my best to work around them. I also don't get this right all the time. But I try to not have the old tomorrow head on. Like our before kids, I was able to work at this pace. I think that's where, you know, I can become undone. I think other mums can come undone as well because they're trying to perform at a level before motherhood. And it's pretty much an impossible task because your life is different. Yeah. And I'm not saying you can't still do what you love to do. And I think you need that to be you know, a good mom. I feel like I'm a better mom when I sing when I've got like side projects. I feel like I'm and I love that I can include my kids as well. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because quite often they'll come into band practices. I remember when they I can Jasper was four months old and Marie and I were practicing my 90s mixtape and or doing the chorus medley at the end, which was like 20 courses back to back in one song. The last songs absolutely everybody by Vanessa amorosi. And yeah, singing that note at the end. I'm breastfeeding Jasper at this time, like doing all the like, oh my gosh, but I actually felt really empowered. I'm like, I can do this. Yeah, it just is showing up differently. And that's okay. And not putting those, like you said, comparing yourself to the life you had before. So I feel like that just it just makes you feel bad or guilty or something. It's like there's no point trying to drag yourself back into that space. Absolutely. There's no going back whether you decide to be a mom or not. There's no going back, but how I feel like there's so many people that are so attached to their old life. Instead of embracing what's happening now and being in the moment now. Like I'm not, I'm not, you know, 25 in London anymore. I'm not, you know, seeing on a cruise ship anymore. I don't want to do that either. Because I have done that that chapter of my life was bloody awesome. But then you tapped out you The music's different now. And I'm showing up in a different way now, but I think that's exciting instead of being a I'm not my old self wasn't a man before. Yeah, I am. That's a great way to look at it. That is a great way to look at it some holidays down by the drink and lemon jello, making promises we won't. So you mentioned the cruise ships there. Let's have a quick chat about what you were doing and how long you were doing it for. Yep. So when I was living in London, I auditioned to be a lead singer in a band on Disney for Disney Cruise Line. Yeah. So I got so I got the I got the gig. And I spent three months traveling around the Caribbean. It was terrible. Would have been raining the whole time? No sunshine. Best and after that. A bit. Mean amazing. Yeah, it really was. And that was yeah, a huge learning curve, because it was Thursday night. So sometimes it was, you know, Motown jazz. We did one set a week in front of the goofy pool, and we'd perform with the Disney characters or Magica days we die. Allison, it was like, the joy on everyone's faces. And you would you know, get lost in the moment as well. It was. Yeah, it was a really, really good gig. Yeah. Though, living on the ship is not my cup of tea. I think I always knew that. But I was like, I want to do this once. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad I did it. But now I want to be living on the land. Not mindspace. Not in a cabin right down the bottom with no windows. Oh, oh, that'd be hard. Like did you get do you get seasick or like, queasy down there did a couple of times when it was rough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But in the Caribbean are pretty calm. So it wasn't too bad. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't take a job like that if you suffered from. I can just imagine, like, I get pretty seasick as it is. But if you were down somewhere with no window, I recommended just do your heading. You just feel like you're in a box. That was the worst, I would say. Like, quite often. I'm just going up to the top deck. I just need some sunlight. Yes, not. Not great. Yeah. Oh, there you go. So sorry. How long did you do that for? You said three months? Yeah, right. Oh, that would have been amazing. Yeah. It's so good that you've got all these wonderful experiences you can look back on and just like you said, you can say that was amazing. I'm not doing that. Now. I've moved on life. But you've got all these awesome things and all these stories. I can that's so cool. Oh, love it. And I guess you would have probably learnt heaps like working with different people along the way to like picking up things from different musicians and, you know, just keeping them in your back pocket for next time sort of thing. Absolutely. I actually think it's a great masterclass for songwriting. Yeah. Right. You know, cuz you watch what the audience get into. So like, when does that when, you know, a song lifts or certain hooks and phrasing and styles, like just all those types of things? I find some, you know, in the singer songwriters really turned their nose down, you know, have a band singers, but I think, how are you meant to learn? If you don't try every flavor of ice cream, you know? And, you know, doing cover gigs? You do you have to sometimes sing songs you don't necessarily like sometimes you quite often will find songs that you really like and connect with that you didn't? Didn't think you would. So I actually think it was. Yeah, an amazing experience to do that. Yeah. Do you find that? I mean, this is my personal experience that I think the best way that I've learned my, what my voice can do and my range and what I'm capable of is singing other people's songs because I wouldn't write songs, like the other people that I sing their music, you know what I mean? So it's actually been really useful to be singing lots of songs over many years to sort of see what you can do and learn where you can push yourself and where you can learn more. Absolutely, and I I have loved doing that because I like I said, I love like Whitney, Mariah I'd never change the, like, I probably sound like a, you know, animal in the paddock that's practicing it. But how are you meant to know what you're capable of if you don't go there? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I runs Oh, how do you you know, seeing that height? Because I let myself go there and practice that. Yeah. You know, I mean, everyone's voices are different, like, I don't have a low voice. Like, I probably wouldn't ever tackle like a Tracy Chapman song in the original key because it you know, I just can't sing that low. So I think that's what makes us all you know, special and unique. That's the beauty Beauty and the voice, you know that everyone has different, you know, colors and textures and sounds and yeah, I love Yeah, absolutely. And I, I know, there's like, no, like, you talk about that sort of stigma of being a cover singer. But I don't know people. People love hearing songs that they know. And this is something I've struggled with placing original songs in sets over the years because people love and I do it too. When I go out. I love to hear some unknown, you know, tap a foot and sing along. So this this, people should stop bagging it. They probably love it too. Exactly. Like, I'm not ashamed to say that I'm, you know, my guilty pleasures are power ballads. Yeah. I went to say Celine Dion in Vegas. It was amazing. Yeah, right would have been pretty special. Do you know what you're not just one thing? Yeah. Oh, that's exciting thing, you know, with being a singer that you can decide what you want to do like you can. And I've seen that with the work that you do. You can sing on dance tracks, you can do jazz, you can do folk, you can do acoustic, you can do whatever the hell you want to do. Yep, that's it, isn't it? That's why sometimes hate that question. Who are you as an artist? Well, I don't, you're huge. I mean, yeah. Sometimes I want to sing this. And sometimes I want to sing that. And it's like, I don't like I don't think I'd put out an album that like the first song was a you know, it was death metal. And then it was a power ballad. Like, I think that would be a bit confused. But I'm just, I'm not into those labels. I've actually gotten less and less keen on, like labeling genres. And to the point where I'll start putting myself in competition. So as I want to know what your genre is, like, I can't tell you I just It depends what mood I'm in. But I feel I'm working with and you know, I know that sort of, say it's very restrictive. I wish there was less less of that sort of talk in the industry, but they've got an eye. It's like, they've got to work out how to deal with you. They've got to know what you do. And it's easy for them if they can pigeonhole you into something. And why do they need to know how old you are? Ya got you? Yes, yes. Yeah. I think the I think it's getting better. yet. I found like, you know, I when I was in Melbourne I can't remember what audition it was and I was like 18 or 19 Oh, no, you're too old for that. Oh, Lord. Oh my god. So young and I believed it for a long time. So I never really took myself like that seriously cuz I just thought like I'm never probably going to have a career in it because you clearly have to be to to get signed. It's bizarre what does it matter love has changed. Me You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I listen. I think the older you get, the more life experience you have. And I've know personally, the better songwriting I'm doing as I get older. I think even since I've had kids, it's like this whole new perspective on your life. And it's so much richer, you know, and to be able to reflect on that and but they want us all to be young and I don't know single and not have kids and but that's mainstream say Eric and the amount of people I've talked to in the indie indie world. No one gives a shit like people, people if you've got a good song and you like people like what you're what you're putting out there. That's all that matters. And I feel like a lot of people, people that I to talk to anyway I just really not even bothering with mainstream stuff not even trying to knock down those doors. Because it's just the first thing. How old are you? They see you're a woman. Have you got kids? Like, that's the interview? Yeah, it's, yeah. And there's no point even like trying to go there. Like, I'm not trying to be the next Teen sensation to appeal to a younger audience, because there's actually some really amazing young artists coming through that are tapping into that market beautifully. Let them own that. I just think there's, you know, enough room for all of us. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I need to be pegged up against each other. Yeah. We all have, you know, different stories to tell. Different songs to put out there. That can't really you can't compare it. Because they're not the same, you know? Yeah. Let's hear. So I just, yeah, I, it doesn't that doesn't bother me anymore. But it really did back then. And because I was so young when now. I don't I don't care. Yeah. Yeah, no. Heat. I think if I'm authentic to myself, and I'm proud of the work that I'm putting out there. And I get to work with all the amazing people in this community. And in you know, in the in the music world that I've connected with tech, you've already won. Could you proud of that? Yeah, that's a garment. You know, the followers the views? Yeah. Yeah. You could get 10,000 views on my YouTube. Yeah. It's it's a funny one. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. So you're talking about songwriting. I want to talk to you about when did you start start writing your own songs? When I was studying in London, yeah. Right. So you know, we would take songwriting classes there, we perform original songs. Then I sort of stopped because I was getting quite a lot of, you know, cover band work. And that's when I went, you know, on the Disney ship. And from the Disney ship. I got a job seeing in the Middle East. Ah, that's was that Doha? Yes. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yep. So I got a job seeing six nights a week with that same band that I worked with on the on the Disney cruise ship. Yeah. At the Intercontinental Hotel in in Doha. Yeah. Right. And we were one of the first western bands there. Oh, wow. So like, we were treated like rock stars. Like that was my rock star moment. Oh, cool. Yeah, it was so cool. was so two weeks into the gig. They had the Big Day Out festival. On the beach. They had like home staying top loader. Like got in like a couple of other big bands. I can't remember off the top of my head. But it was like this massive Festival on the beach and like, Oh, can you open up for them? And we're like oh my god. It was just like a scene from a movie. Like it was just like, huge budget massive stage. Big audience. Like the sound was epic. It was just hot, balmy weather on the beach. I'm like, this is a vibe. Oh, man. Come home from what you learn to being in this industry. It's not all highs. Yeah, yeah. And it's very easy to fall into the trap and I'm guilty of it. of always wanting that feeling. Always wanting that high. And it's nice not like that. And it's not all about those big gigs. You know, I've done gigs where like literally playing to nobody tables and chairs. Singing everybody oh wait, there's no one there. You know, like it's just yeah. But you know, it makes you appreciate when you do get opportunities like that because they're not all you know, The showstoppers. Yeah, let's see. And that's, and that's okay. Because it's about it. This is what I've learned since having kids is enjoying the process more. Recently, did a music video and remix of my first single release me, it's gonna ask you about that. Let's talk about that now. Yeah, so I wrote that in Doha. That's, that was my first song I'd ever written, released. I was 28. Yeah, right. I was like, I've got to push myself here. You know, I've been doing this this cover band gig for a while, which I've enjoyed, but I wanted to challenge myself and the opportunity to work with a producer there. Came up and then a friend of mine who, who is a videographer, just out of the blue said, are you working on any originals? I might well, actually, I do want to shoot a music video. Sure. Um, and I think from that moment, I'm like, Oh, I really want to explore songwriting more, I really want to, you know, go down this path. Yeah. So when you were writing at that point, what was Where were you drawing your inspiration from as compared to now? I guess. So that's that song's about that's heartbreak. It's a ballad. It's about you know, an old find having a hold on your heart. So it was sort of weird singing it now. I'm happily married. I've got two kids. Like, life's cool. Live in Gambia. Very different to, you know, what I was going through at the time. But you can always put that hat back on, even if you're in that place. I don't know if you find that, Allison. Yes. And I think there's something beautiful about that type of vulnerability like that heartbreak. I think that's why people bloody love Adele. She's willing to go there. Yeah. And it's just so beautiful to you know, hear that vulnerability in music like I really connect with, with songs like that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I wanted to strip that song back a bit more as well. Yeah, congratulations on that. When I heard it. For the first time. I just thought, Oh, this is lovely. Because I actually listened to the original few days before I was driving at drive to Rome. And I thought, let's listen to the original just to prepare myself for for the change. And it's beautiful to our congratulations. Thank you, hopefully. And yeah, you talked about your film clip. Tell us about that. Because that is amazing. I'm gonna put a link to that in your show notes because people need to see this. It's a piece of art basically. It's DEVAR. Thank you. You know, it was a team effort. Yeah. You know, like my sister in law had that beautiful Roberto Cavalli game gown hanging you know, like, you know, so lucky to that was a, you know, an art piece that suited the venue. Unlike these dress and the venue belong together. You could not have done it any more perfectly seriously. It's just incredible. Yeah, and to film it. Yeah. Have you ever been to Yellin Park? I haven't actually ever been there. No. Didn't go. So Young Park is just outside of Panola it is one of I think it's Australia's best preserved Victorian home. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Let me rephrase that mansion. Yes. Absolutely spectacular. You know, the old piano, the furniture, the original wallpaper. That staircase with the stained glass window. Like it was just you feel the magic when you when you walk in there? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, because homes aren't built like that anymore. So just to, you know, feel like you're stepping back in time and like to do that down here is really important to me, because I always thought like, I don't know if I could ever live, you know, in Mount Gambier again, is this going to fill me enough because I, you know, lived in London and traveled a lot but it's actually been the best thing for me to be able to, like work with the people that I've been been able to work with in that time. But we're so lucky down here. Like, we don't have to go to the city. Sometimes you do. And you have to source that work outside of the community. But we're just so lucky. Yeah, there are some seriously talented people you won't get. Like, just, yeah, you don't have to go far to find someone that's got a skill that can help you with something fun. Like, you know, I've worked with Katy Fox, but yes, like, she's just so beautiful. And like, she's just so much fun on set. And we just have a laugh. And yeah, it was just yeah, really special to, to do that with all my, my favorite creative. Yeah, yeah, that's really nice. I've often thought of that, like, you think are now I've got kids, I can't go away and record in Melbourne for two weeks non stop, you know, all this sort of stuff. And you sort of think, yeah, it's actually you feel really proud when you do something down here. Because it's like almost saying, you know, and up yours to people that think you have to leave a small town to achieve things. You don't? You really don't look, logistically, is it a bit challenging? Like, I'm thinking off? I'm going to do a tour at some point. What's that gonna look like? But you can still make it happen. And I think sometimes making it happen in your own small way. It's not about you trying to be the biggest and the bestest, you know? Yeah, yeah, it's like what's achievable in your world, and it may not look like what it is for somebody else. But that's another thing that I've been talking before about, as you get older, not worrying so much about stuff. And like, I used to be really competitive, like think, Oh, someone's doing that, oh, I wish I could do that. In my 20s. And now it's like, well, good on them. Like you actually look at someone and appreciate what they've done and what they're doing. And it's it's a really great way to be because you're just, I know, you're not caught up in, you know, all this, especially on this on social media with all the things you see from people. But you can sort of just, you know, I can't remember where I was going with this. I've gotten there now. And I can't remember what my point was at the start of it. Might come back to me, but yeah, basically. Oh, yeah. Ego. You see, I've got to do this, too, in this way. Because such and such did this way. And this is how people expect you to do a tour but it's like no, actually break it down. What's worked for me, my family, my location, and just don't worry about what people think. Because it matters what you think. You have to live with you at the end of the day. Yeah. And why you go down a path that's not authentic to you. That's going to actually make you probably end up hating music, because you're not staying true to who you are. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you know, we're there. You know, we live in a society that's obsessed with busy and being hustled hard and do this and you want to, you know, like pulling you in, in directions that actually, you don't want to go. But that's, you know, what I've realized, especially since having kids I'm in the driver's seat here, I get to decide not people pulling me in other directions of where I you know, want to go Yeah, that's incredibly empowering. Isn't it? Really is like, you know, you don't have to be signed anymore. We have the internet so even though that's you know, with the streaming and making money's a little bit more challenging but your reach is absolutely endless so there's so many there's so many positives Yep. Yeah stands at the desk I want to take you on down different path. about this topic we have I love to talk to my guests about the Old Faithful mum guilt, which is something that it's an interesting one because I've had I think I haven't had two guests who genuinely didn't know what it was. And I thought this is amazing actually had one had to google it. And when asked me to explain it, and that that's all well and truly in the minority but yes, it is awesome. And there should be more like it going on. But yeah, share your thoughts what you think about monkey monkey. Mom guilt is very real. I've definitely experienced it. Do I believe in it? I don't I think it's toxic. Why would we should be shaming moms for taking time away from their family? To do something that they love to do? Or to go for a walk down the street? Or where are your kids? I can have time away from my kids, you know, but you don't say that to their father. Tell me about it. Why it's such Dustin is it really is. I feel guilty. If I'm feeling stressed about something and I take it out. And my kids, if I'm a bit short with them, that's when I feel bad. I'm you let them down in that way. But I don't feel I don't feel bad about being creative. I include my kids in that. I share my music with them. How is that a bad thing? I think it's just another layer of making moms feel like shit, putting them up on this ridiculous pedestal of trying to be absolutely everything to everybody. And it's an impossible standard to keep. And men are drowning because of it. Yeah, you know, it's Yeah, so I do feel it. It is there. But I don't spend much time going down that path because I don't genuinely believe in mom guilt. It's fair on mums. Yeah, that's so well said. It's like it is it is. It's like a thing that someone came up with, just to add another layer of you know, we don't feel bad enough about things. So let's just put something else on to moms. Yeah. It's horrible. It is horrible. It really good on you for fighting against it. Because it's crap. I think a lot a lot, a lot of women and a lot of mothers are speaking out about it in that way as well. Like, this is BS, it is. Why, why should I feel bad? It doesn't make any sense now. And like you said earlier, it actually helps you be a better person. And therefore a better mother, when you are being creative and your own needs are being met. It just, it sends you out in the world in a different headspace. Absolutely, and how cool that I get to share this with my sons. You know, motherhood and being creative can exist together doesn't have to be one or the other. And our kids are here to teach us a lesson or to look at their imagination. Look at them just being present in the moment. They're not going, Ah, I've got to go the supermarket by this time, and I've got to do this, I've got to do that there's something so special about being around young children. Oh, I totally agree with that, is I spend my days working in a kindergarten and it's just, it really humbles you. It's like, all the stuff that you thought in the world was I mean, it is some stuff is bad, but you know, the stuffs on your mind, like the trivial things. And then you've got a child who's looking at a leaf, and just studying the veins on the leaf. And it's just like, Ah, okay, right, get back to basics. You know, it just really brings you back down to earth. Absolutely. And it's, you know, it's about making big things out of the small things. It's not about this, you know, unachievable goal that's put that like that we're being fed this narrative that, oh, if you wake up at this time, and if you eat this food, and if you do this, if you do that, if you do that, and it's like, by the time I get through that bloody list over the last 24 hours, yeah, yeah. And if you read another list, it would be conflicting, it'd say, Don't eat that before such and such but do this before and it's just like, hello, we have to actually live our lives. Yes, on that as well. Like it's too much. We are consuming content at a rapid rate. We need to have those output days where we're just, you know, playing around on a keyboard writing a song right, you know, playing outside with our kids without being Oh, someone so said this on Instagram and I'm just going to watch this video. I'm just going to do this. I'm just going to do that and you're just not being in the moment and I think there's a huge disconnect in society. because it is. Yeah, I can the biggest scary thing for me is the, the like this tick tock era where the what's the word concentration spans are being shortened? Because you fed this information and it turns over so quick. So I see the mind kids, it's like they'll watch half of a, there's like a big long video, maybe I'd know half an hour and they'll only watch like 10 minutes and then decide they don't like that anymore. It's like, hang on, what about the rest of it? And like, be an hour day you're watching the television. That was all you had to watch channel eight, and ABC and you create a connection? Yes, good. Oh, gotcha connection. You know, it's like, they just they expect to have more and more and different and different constantly asked them, you know, and it's like, no, no, no, we have to stop this to scary. And now you know, artists are writing songs for Tik Tok. They're not even writing whole. Bloody Kylie Minogue. Did you see what she's done? I don't think she's even released her latest song, she's just put it out on Tik Tok, and basically got people to make a dance out of it. So that's what's getting the track viral is because they're all doing this dance. It's like she knows how to run the show. You don't need a record label anymore. You just say tick tock account online. And that's why it's important. I think as an artist to like I've said before, write songs that you're proud of. That you can connect to. Because what's going to be the next trend? I can't go there. I'm not gonna write a song for Tik Tok. I'm not gonna write a song in a you know, in hoping that it's gonna go viral. I can't go there. Yeah, you know if I can be vulnerable, authentic, like, I love writing about the human experience. You know, love loss, adversity, being brave that type of thing. I know that that story, those stories connect with other people because I've been through it as well. Yeah. So you know, I'm willing to dabble production wise do something a bit different. But I'm not I think yes, you're chasing your tail if you're trying to write songs just because this is you know, tic TOCs the latest thing or Instagram or do this do that? Like I think that's not gonna that's not an enjoyable process. Yeah, I was actually going to say that it did start to feel more like a chore and a job. And it's not meeting that the need that you have to express what you need to express, you know, yeah, so yeah. I don't even have I don't even have a tic tock account. I don't even want to go there. It's just I'll just find out have you Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to use other major rookie here. Oh, goodness way. Change there was a quote that you had on your Facebook recently, and you said that, that it spoke like the process had sparked your creativity. And it was something that you thought was gone since having your kids so have you? Have you basically put this aside for How old's your oldest sorry, I haven't asked how old he So Max is three and a half and Jasper's Yeah, right. So for the past three and a half years have you done anything for yourself with your music? Not a lot. So that's why I was really nervous to put this out like I really enjoyed the process of you know, doing this remix during the video. But then when it came for the launch, I'm like I'm freaking out here. Like I haven't been in this headspace for Ohio have been you know, my mode so it was it was a challenge for me to do it. I wouldn't say that that was a walk in the park. You know because we all had plenty gastro two weeks before the release and all this shit basically literally. All this is so hard to try and do both. It's just feels like such an impossible task. But I was just had to keep reminding myself. You can only do your best you can do come and quiet the mind because there's so little but yeah, it was was a challenge. But I was also refreshing as well as well. I've needed this, huh? Yes, yeah, yeah. Because you like since you were 15 music has been pretty much your life. So then to have that big break from it that would have liked did you have times during that time where you're like, Oh, I really feel like I have to get back to it or like what was going through your mind at times. I made the point though, of always having a little project. So I'm was not back doing gigs to what I was doing previously. And at the moment, I'm not either and that is totally fine. But like always. Oh, my kids are back on that ground. Reality Check. When I fell pregnant with Max, I still had my mobile caravan business limoncello caravan bar, which was still operating. I had staff that would work in the van for me. And he was four months old. And I did the band Christmas show. I did a limoncello caravan bar cocktail Christmas party. So I I knew I could do two gigs. Right. I just made sure that I had a couple of little projects in the pipeline. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that has helped because if I didn't do that, well COVID kicked off in March. Yeah, yeah. And then I fell pregnant with Jasper in the June halfway through COVID. Yep. And then what I was working on my 90s mixtape, so we did that the part of the 2018 Matt Gander in Adelaide fringe. And we performed that again, but that I reckon that got Reese Yeah, that got rescheduled. Yeah, right. COVID. Yeah. A week. And then we finally did it again last year. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, that was a long time goes by how much time has gone by Don't ya like Oh, my God isn't work. It's so funny though. Having kids in COVID Because we're like, Oh, how's how's your child going? I'm like, which one? They're like, did you have another one? I'm like, yeah. What else? Gotta keep busy somehow. Otherwise Oh, that's classic. Oh, that's so funny each and every day the distance the time is all we need your brain makes of release me is out. What do you see the cup coming up? Have you got anything sort of happening in your brain? Like, I want to do this and what indeed there are lots of things. That's the like I've, I've always been like this, like, going back to childhood like my imagination is wild. And Nick can tell when I'm off on one because it's like I'm talking to myself is that we're used to thinking something or doing something. I'm like, Yeah, I was I just go into this. This other world? Yeah. So on. Yeah. Got a few ideas in the pipeline. Yep. But I don't want to say what I'm going to do because it's very early stage. That's okay. You don't have to tell me all your secrets. I would like to drop a single by the end of the year, but if that happened, that's okay. The songs got to be right. Anyway, so I've started you know, penning a few ideas down so yeah, we'll just see what happens. Oh, good Anya, and yet look honestly, when I saw what you were wearing, and that the location for your film clip I was like, oh my god, like you could seriously not have found two more perfect things to put together like that dress. Oh my gosh, like did you feel like like, I don't know, like a goddess or something you met Jessica is it bloody hell? You look good. Like, I felt like a million bucks because like, you know, I've been in nursing tops, sweatpants. Rock Mumbai, been for the past two years like, actually not The cameras have my hair and makeup done. I'm like is this is what I needed at this moment in time? So like kickstarted, like you said, it's kickstarted that creativity. And now it's like the balls rolling and all these things are happening in your mind. It's exciting, isn't it? It is. But then it's like I'm dealing with two toddlers at the moment. So they, yeah, that's sort of stealing the show. Might be able to feature them in the next film clip just for a second. Yeah. Well, Maxis in one of my film clips. Oh, I see. Yeah. And I was pregnant with Jasper as well. So did you see Eileen? The Tribute? I did to my grandfather? I did. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Oh, I mean, like, my kids and family are a part of my music. Sound legacy and how bloody cool is that? Yeah. I love that. Like mom said to me, probably the best thing you'll ever do is sing with the kids. And at the time, I was probably quite young. I was that. Oh, really? And then I'm like, nah, this is cool. I call that I can cue on this journey. And like Max's like, Oh, mommy, you're gonna go singing now. And I want to come and see me is that as well as being their mom? is super cool. Oh, yeah. I feel like that is for me personally. That's where I find the most pride I think that they can see that their mother is not the mother still, Allison is still their own person, like mom still May. And and my life does not exist to solely do one. You know, role. I do all these other things. And I love that the kids know that. I think it's so important for like, I say feminism moving forward. But it's, it's I think it's really important for them to get that that women just because they have children. Does it make them obsolete in our society? Absolutely. And that's inspiring. And that success. You're allowed to say that. I feel like you can't say, oh, I love I love being a mom like I really do. Like I absolutely love it. Am I perfect? No. exist. Like and you know what? I don't want my kids to think that I'm perfect. So if I'm, you know, get a bit totally at them because they've you know, spilled my my load down the wall or put a golf club through the TV, like, and I get it across about it. Yeah. I apologize and go oh, sorry, I did get a B cross. Because we're all human. We're not perfect. I don't want to be put up on that pedestal. Yeah. Yep. So feel like you're sending your kids out with unrealistic, unrealistic expectations of what you know, relationships are and what you can expect from other people. That's like, we are actually allowed to get shitty and annoyed at each other feel these emotions, you're allowed to feel this stuff? I don't know. I feel like the previous like, when I was a kid, you know, you wouldn't see your parents in these ways of expressing themselves. They were just mom and dad. And they didn't know anything else about what they did. But, you know, I want my kids to know that I'm a full whole person with all these other elements to me. And I love you, regardless of what you show me. Yeah. You're angry. That's okay. I want you to come to me. My doors always open ask me anything. Yeah, I was by far the, you know, perfect teenager. I get it. Man that got the t shirt. You know, like, I don't? Yeah, I don't want them to strive for perfection. And I, I don't either. You know, how many moms are trying to be the perfect mom? Yeah. There's a really good Carrie. Oh, it is. And I had an episode with Sophie Brock, who's a Dr. Sophie Brock, who's a motherhood sociologist. And she said, the perfect mother myth, like the perfect mother does not exist, because there's an exercise she gets you to where you write down all the things that you think makes up a perfect mother and putting that in air quotes. And you'd when you look at that, and you read that back, it, that person cannot physically exist. But you know, we're all told we're meant to do these things and be certain ways and behave this and don't do that and make sure you do that. So what the hell. Well, you know what I hate, especially from people that don't have kids. Well, you chose to be a mom, or Yeah, yeah. No. It's like you're allowed to complain about your office job. Yeah. Like, you two feelings can exist at the same time. Mike, I'm grateful but also you're doing my bloody head in I'm sick of cleaning up all this food off the floor. This mess is making me feel good. overwhelmed and overstimulated, we're allowed to have these honest conversations. Yeah, you're allowed to say that. It's hard because it bloody is. Yeah. Yeah. But also, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Like when you meet your child for the first time, like, how could I love something so much? Yeah, I experienced this before, you know. It's at all look that ambivalence that two thoughts at the same time that are both true is one something I find incredibly fascinating about being a mum. Like, I'd be like, Oh, geez, I could I could literally throw myself in front of a moving car to save your life. But could you just eat your bloody tea? Please? Stop it's you're at an eight you're totally extremes. It just it contains. It really is. Oh, man. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. The sorries we begin. Yeah, if you got anything else you wanted to share before I let you go because I'm conscious. We're rolling on to the witching hour. So screaming in the background, clearly someone's hungry. So I'm obsessed with flamingos. I love them. Ah, that's a lovely mug. And I found this amazing quote on Instagram about flamingos and I want to share with you just beautiful. So flamingos lose their pink when they're raising their babies. Because it's such an intense process. Eventually it comes back. If you're deep in postpartum motherhood right now, Mama, remember you will get your pink bag. Oh, I love that. Oh, yeah. Like, when you said that? Oh, but it's so true. Like it's actually okay. To surrender to to motherhood and being that because it is so full on you don't have to, you know, try and still have a full time career like it's, it's okay. Yeah, yes, you know, you and you will get your shine your shine back. Just to tell our listeners what you're wearing. I'm wearing a sequin bomber jacket. Yeah, that's serious. And like, yeah, being patient and knowing that time. Yeah, you know, we move through life and people get older. And I love people who say that the seasons change. You know, I'm in a different season in my life. Now. It's like, yeah, and sometimes it's hard to do that, you know, to, to go Oh, but I remember this. And I remember that. And it's okay to give yourself a break, you know, and, yeah, you Pinkel. I think art is better for it. Sometimes when you take a break. Why are we talking about this enough? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The stillness, that your priorities do change. Doesn't mean it's lost forever. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Could you say some good things. I'm gonna have sandy quotes, but that Flamingo one isn't mine. I stole that one. That's okay. But you said it today. So that's cool. Like, I feel like as a mom, we're holding on to a lot of shame that's not necessary. Like pursuing our creative dreams. We're also carrying on like, these old stories and old narratives that don't that don't serve us. I think it's, you know, when sometimes they just shatter a legacy that's holding us back. That and that that's, you know, belief system. Doesn't doesn't work for me. And it's okay for me to and what's important is to do what's right for my family. And that might not be what some someone else would do, but that's okay. And I think you have to be comfortable in that, because everyone's got an opinion. Everyone will tell you what they think. And you know, especially, you know, I look at my grandmother's generation, they lived in a different time, of course, they're gonna have a different perspective on what motherhood should be or what life should be. Some of those values are amazing, but some of them don't hold up in, in modern society. So it's really important to stay in your lane, and to be comfortable in the choices that you make as a family. Yeah. You know, my kids feel loved. They're seeing, they're heard. They're happy, my husband's happy. I'm happy. Yeah. You know, that's the main thing. Yeah. That is, that is awesome. Yeah, I saw I saw a quote the other day, sort of similar to that, like, I'm not going to get this wrong, I'm going off by heart, but I can't remember was something about how were the really the first generation of mothers who have got this, this thing coming out and saying, Oh, you can do it, or you can do this, you could do that. So that, that sort of post feminist movement of that, you can do it all. But then our mothers didn't do it all, they probably had jobs, and then stopped working to have kids. And now we're at this point where we do want to express ourselves, and we do want to do other things apart from the mothering role. So we're just caught in limbo of how like, I don't wanna say, how do you get it right? Because I don't think you ever get it. Right. But how do you make it work? You know, like you were saying, like, for your family, and it's really hard not to look around and seeing what other people are doing listening to other voices. It's like, put your blinkers on and just do what works for you. Like you said, Stay in your lane. And if you if you're all happy, then that's all that matters. Absolutely. Yeah. Because you're always gonna feel that pool. Like how often do you hear or backing, backing out? And we didn't do this? Yeah, there was a different life completely different circumstances. Absolutely. And I want to make sure that when my kids, especially when they're a bit older, that I'm up to speed with what's going on in schooling. They're living through a different time than I did as a child. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important. Not projecting your experience onto your kids. Like our parents did. Like, you know, my my parents parents did. Yeah, some of those values were good, but some of those things are not. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. That is a really good way to put it get that baby thank you so much for coming on tomorrow. I love chatting with you to save me. It's been lovely. It's nice to actually have a conversation because we always see each other in passing at gigs and shows and things. It's lovely to sit down and chat with you. And thank you for sharing on thanks for having me. Like this was such a safe space to have very, you know, a very open conversation. I've never done a podcast before, like, natural you have to do more of them. But I didn't you know you make it made me feel comfortable. Or Thank you. I appreciate that. And I do you know, follow your podcast and you've done a really good job to be proud of it. Oh, thank you. That's so nice of you to say. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes.

Damien Leith Irish Australian singer, songwriter, author and playwright S4Ep99 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts To celebrate Fathers Day in the US and northern hemisphere I am thrilled to welcome well known Irish / Australian singer Damien Leith to the show. Damien is a multi-talented artist that has made his mark in Australia as a singer/ songwriter, producer, author, playwright and tv/radio host personality and he is a dad of 3 children. Damien grew up in Ireland surroudned my music, but didnt get into singing until he was 17. He started a family band with his brother and 2 sisters and toured around Ireland. He came to Australia in 2003 after meeting his soon to be wife Eileen in Ireland, on the first leg of a round the world trip, and has never left! The talented family man first captured the attention and affection of Australians when he contested the 2006 edition of Australian Idol – a series he went on to win. Since then, his career skyrocketed, but he has remained charming, grounded and modest – securing him a place as a popular and well-loved Australian personality. Over the past 17 years Damien has enjoyed platinum-selling albums selling over 750,000 albums and won many prestigious awards including Arias, a Golden Guitar, Songwriter of the Year and many more. His Aria wins include number 1 chart awards for the albums WHERE WE LAND and THE WINNER'S JOURNEY, highest selling album, and highest selling single and number 1 chart award for the track, NIGHT OF MY LIFE. His music has been chosen to appear in commercials, movies and television shows. Damien was a celebrity contestant and finalist on the 2011 series of DANCING WITH THE STARS. Damien also loves creative writing, publishing two novels ONE MORE TIME (2007) and REMEMBER JUNE (2009). He also shares his expertise as a singer/songwriter and has created online courses to help artists improve their voice and songwriters to write, record and release their own music through his DAMIEN LEITH ACADEMY. When Damien is not touring and performing, he spends his time in his recording studio where he is a highly sought-after songwriter (published through Embassy Publishing) and producer. Writing for many artists, he won 2016 APRA/ASA songwriter of the year and 2017 APRA/AMCOS GOLDEN GUITAR winner for song of the year. This episode contains mentions of OCD Damien - website / shows Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Damien. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast today to celebrate Father's Day in the US and other countries around the world. I'm thrilled to welcome well known Irish Australian singer Damien Leith to the show. Damian is a multi talented artists that has made his mark in Australia as a singer and songwriter, a producer, author, playwright and TV and radio host and he's also the dad of three children. Damien grew up in Ireland surrounded by music, but didn't seriously get into singing until he was 17. He started a family band with his brother and two sisters and toured around Ireland. In 2003. After meeting his soon to be Wi Fi lane, he set out on the first leg of around the world trip and arrived in Australia, and he has never left. This talented family man first captured the attention and affections of Australians when he contested the 2006 edition of Australian Idol, a series that he went on to win. Since then his career has skyrocketed. But he's remained charming, grounded and modest, securing him a place as a popular and well loved Australian personality. Over the past 17 years, Damien has enjoyed platinum selling albums, and won many prestigious awards, including Arias, a golden guitar Songwriter of the Year and many more. His music has been chosen to appear in commercials, movies and TV shows. Damien was also a celebrity contestant and finalist on the 2011 series of Dancing with the Stars. He also loves Creative Writing, Publishing two novels in 2007 and 2009. He also shares his expertise as a singer songwriter, and has created online courses to help artists improve their voice and songwriters to write, record and release their own music through the Damien Leith Academy. When Damian is not touring and performing, he spends his time in his studio, where he's a highly sought after songwriter, and producer. Today's episode contains mentions of OCD. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Damian's music, which is used with permission from my APA and cost money online license. Thanks so much for tuning in. I appreciate your ongoing support due to changing work commitments, my nine to 5am I unable to keep doing the podcast every week. So over the next few weeks, please enjoy some written articles, which will be released every Friday. And you can find them on my website. Alison newman.net/articles. I got you, I got you thank you so much for coming on. Damian. It's such a pleasure to meet you. Likewise, absolute pleasure. Yeah, it's really great to have you on. I've been a really big fan of yours for a very long time. So I'm saying to go silly now. Well, that's nice. There's nothing wrong with that. I've actually seen you perform at the Irish festival. I've been croit the few years ago. I love that festival every time I've played there quite a few times now. Maybe five times and I love it. It's such a great vibe. Here. Little town as well. So, yeah. Oh, it was a real treat get down there. Yeah, yeah. Have you got it on your plans to come back anytime soon? I don't have the not for the next two years at least. Yeah. Because I observed the last time was it last year, I think, last year or the year before? Yeah. So. So we normally have a little bit of a gap. So but and it's also it's based around an invite as well. So he kind of wants to get an invite as well by the organizers. But I'll definitely be back. I love it. It is just a gorgeous vibe. And like, it feels like being back in Ireland, it's kind of a little Irish town. So there's something about that little town that just works. It's funny, because the rest of the year, it's basically just this little town that exists, and no one knows about it. And then for this one weekend of the year just explodes. And it's just, it's awesome. We just love it. So much fun. And I did enjoy the version you played last time you were there of black is the color that you sang with, I think it was a local girl that sang with you. And that, that that federal part in the middle, and then it changes. I don't know what the chords are. But it changes back from the Federal part to the like, the regular verse. And then it's one bit where it just changes. And every time I hear I just get goosebumps. It's like it just lifts and I can't describe it really. But it's it's pretty, pretty amazing. So Oh, well. That's great. That part actually, that was that was originally played by Sharon core from the course. Oh, are you kidding? Yeah. Which which was an incredible experience. I I recorded an Irish album. And the whole idea was to try and make it as authentic as possible. So I recorded it in Ireland. And and while we were there, we managed to get two major major guests. One was Sharon core. And the other one was Sharon Shannon. And Sharon Shannon has I think she played Corona as well. Incredible accordion player, but they haven't haven't Sharon core on there was a real real treat. You know, I'd been a fan of the course when I was a kid. So I happen a core actually play and so she sings on it as well. Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's pretty cool. Very cool. Very cool. Great violinist. Yeah, they're actually they're coming to Australia. Soon I think that's fine. Pretty much everyone would know you from your dates on the Australian Idol. But what did you do before then? Like, when did you come to Australia? And when did you get into singing? Was it always something that you did growing up in Ireland? Yeah, singing singles was a major part of my life. From the age of about 1617 onwards. Prior to that the only thing I ever wanted to do was be an actor. I loved acting. Yes. For years and years. And I've never sung a note until I was about, I think I will say 17. But I think it was about 16. I auditioned for a school musical. That's, that's really what got me into music, music. But music has always been in the family. My mother is a great singer. And she her whole family are all singers. So there's a long, long history of singers in the family and dad plays guitar. So music was a major part of our lives growing up. But from the age of about 17 onwards, I became obsessed with music. Absolutely, you know, totally over the top of our music, I started learning how to play the piano on the guitar and I started writing my own songs. And I convinced the rest of my family to create a family band with me. So it was my two brothers, my sister and myself. And we went from just this little band that played out in the back garden in the in the shed to a band that actually gig all over Ireland. Yeah, yeah, we absolutely loved it. So, so I was doing that. But I also studied to become a chemist. So So in the end, I actually became a chemist. And, and prior to arriving in Australia, I was a full time chemists or works as an industrial chemist. Yeah, from 995 as a chemist, and at the weekends as a musician, and it was great. Yeah, right. Just on that what's what's the difference between a compounding chemist in an industrial chemist? Well, from what you actually studied at uni, it they they kind of started the same path but one definitely branches off so I would have gone more into the to the actual lab style chemistry where an actual compound chemists or somebody who actually run runs a store works in the store. They specialize in, in knowing and understanding what medicine should be prescribed to certain person and on all the different side effects and you know, everything that is required for someone to be able to actually deal with a patient might come in off the street where I was definitely more from the research side. And I did load research. I researched for years I did. I did all sorts of different drug research trials. I did, you know, analysis on new drugs that were coming out so I did a lot of that sort of stuff. Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting sometimes you was it your chemist work deployed to Australia or your music that brought you out here? It was love that brought me out of here it was. It had nothing to do with the other two. Nothing whatsoever. My wife is Australian. I met her in Ireland. And from the moment we met, it was kind of a love at first sight. We were married within three years. Yeah, it was, you know, a whirlwind, but absolutely amazing. So I met her in Ireland. She was visiting her grandmother, so her dad's Irish, her mother's tongue. And she was obviously born in Australia. So she was over there visiting her grandmother, I happen to be working in the same place that she was working. And one thing led to another and yet Three years later, we were married and decided to go around the world on a honeymoon. So we had around the world ticket one the SLUBs happened to be in Sydney. And once we arrived in Sydney, we never left. Oh, there you go save still got that rest of that holiday to go at some point. Expired I think unfortunately, that's really the sun go down on Galway. Just stay here again, the ripple of the trout stream. Where man in the meadow is making desired a turf RM Nakaba. 17 is sort of older to come into music. So I can sort of understand how you sort of described it as being like you've really got into it all of a sudden, because it's almost like you were sort of cramming in, like 17 years worth of, of music catching up, you know, that sort of thing. Does that is that sort of how it felt like you were just sucking in everything you could and sort of soaking it all up. Yeah, it was like that. It was also such a new experience. Because once I got a taste for music, I really found that I enjoyed it in a major way. I mean, I love the feeling of singing. It was one of those sort of things I used to go into the living room back home in Ireland, we lived in a little country town called Milltown out surrounded by farm fields. So there wasn't a whole bunch of houses all around around us where, you know, if I was singing at the top of my lungs, people would be given out. But I just loved the feeling. I loved going into room and I loved challenging myself to try and sing high notes or to try and sing like Frank Sinatra or nakin core. Interestingly, when I started singing, I did not sing a lot of the songs that traditional, you know, traditionally people would start off singing and I didn't go through that, that whole you know, going through scales and all that sort of stuff because I never had lessons or was just CDs that are logged in. And like I said Nat King Cole was probably one of my major artists that I saw long term which is very strange, because that can cause quite a low singer. And I ended up with quite a high range. But I just love the emotion and the likes of Nat King Cole and and all the all crooners just to put into songs. I love that feeling of being able to tell a story. Hmm, yeah. And I guess that that sort of ties in with like, the Irish heritage of like a lot of the songs that that stories really in song format, they there's a lot like that. Yeah, oh, absolutely. All those old Irish stories, they're all the stories about losing someone or some sort of conflict or something that was really that had a major impact on someone's life. And, and the only way you can sing those songs is by putting, putting a lot of feeling into them. So I think for me starting off, being interested in all of that style of music really helped me out on that, but I've been a singer for last since I can remember. But it wasn't until I went to the Irish festival in Croydon and actually was around people singing like the crowds of people singing and realized how many like, I don't want to get political or anything, but like the passion and the struggles that, like people from Ireland had faced throughout the years like and it just, it was really overpowering at one point, I sort of found myself sort of, I don't know, in this moment where I just had this realization of what it all meant, like, it's not just a duty and a little happy tune about whatever like, it's like, the real background in some of those songs is really quite powerful. Yeah. Oh, they are. Absolutely. And it's interesting that a lot of those old Irish songs, the message is very, very strong. They, a lot of them were written, inspired by actual events that really, really moved people that influenced their entire lives. But those stories still still carry on, even now, many years later. And even though they don't always link necessarily to the political side of stuff, the sentiment is so strong that if you've got something in your own life, that means a lot to you. Like, a real common thing for anyone living in Australia from Ireland is homesickness. The the melody and melancholy of a lot of those songs, helps you sometimes with your homesickness, and there's something in the in the music that by singing it, or by listening to it, you don't know you get a kind of a way of dealing with missing home or being homesick. Yeah. hard to describe. But this is the songs are just so beautifully written that they allow you to express your emotions. Yeah, no, I can I can understand that. And yeah, like, oh, come in process saying I was there was one in particular, I thought the first time I ever heard it saying around me. That one about the Freebirds fly. What's that? Yeah, I didn't realize like, Oh, my God, this is full on like, this is people, you know, as Australians, and like most of us have never had to fight for our country or fight for our identity. And it was like, wow, this is unreal. Like, and that my friend Helen. She's from Northern Ireland. So yeah, she's got a different perspective on it, too. But yeah, interesting. I just wanted to mention that without, you know, going into things. No, no, I told you that my dad's from Belfast. So, you know, so I traveled up and down to Northern Ireland when I was a kid. And I saw different stages of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. And I mean, Arlen really was a country at war. That is something that sometimes when people refer Carlon, the kind of the make light of that, but actually, it was really serious situation really, really, truly was and, and affects so many people that see it. And I think from like, I mean, I tend to think of myself as a worldly sort of person. Like, I listened to the news, I watch things, whatever. But until I'd met someone, that it was from there and understood it, I had no concept, no concept at all, you know, like you just you just hear words like, you know, about Shin Fane and things like that. And the IRA, but you don't really get it. So yeah. Yeah. The pie, supine, soft call. From Glen to the mountains. This summer's gone. So you said before you've never had singing lessons. So were you just self taught like your falsetto. And in your range? You just worked that all out on your own? Yeah, I did. It was It's the voice that I have my the sound that I have, is a very familiar sound in amongst my mom's family. So there's definitely a history there. The sound of the voice, it's definitely traveled from through the generations, there's no question about that. So what I discovered that I could sing, I was actually very blessed, to have a voice already had a lot of the things that I would need to actually perform. Now, none of it was developed, I still had the scene and sing and sing and sing, to try and get to improve and to find my own style and find my own way around it. But yeah, but you know, I think with a voice, you're either born with a certain sound, or you work on it, it's one or the other. The voice can always be improved beyond that. But I was definitely in that category of someone who just had a voice to begin with. Yeah, like I've I've had, I can relate to that. Like, I've had a lot of coaching later in life with my singing. And it sort of comes down to literally what sort of voice box you've got, like the length of your, whatever those things are called in your throat and how thick they are, you know, you can't you can't change your genetics, but you can definitely work with what you've got to get the best out of it. For sure, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You're, you're it's, you know, Your Your makeup is all about the style, your voice, the tone, your voice comes from, you know, the space within your mouth, your approach the the air that's passing through the larynx, all of that comes into effect. So your genetics definitely come into into play with what you're going to end up having. Obviously, you can't improve it, you can widen the range. And you can try and get resonance to sit in a different place in your mouth, and all that sort of stuff as well to improve it. But you can be very fortunate just to be born with a certain sound. Yeah, that's something I've gotten really interested in the last few years is where you place the sound in your face, like where you can we can get that different sound and pushing it out through your nose or, you know, I don't know, like when you've been singing for a long time, I think you start to sort of experiment a bit more and think how you can change your tone. And I don't know. Yeah, I think I found that really interesting. Probably the last five years, getting a bit more into that will interest in last year, near the end of last year, I managed to get COVID. And I got COVID While I still had loads of shows on so I had tons of shows I had this thing, I couldn't cancel the show's canceled for many reasons. But probably the main reason was COVID had arrived, you know, three years prior to that, and I lost so many shores. And I had to reschedule them so many, many times that they eventually came about, I couldn't just cancel them again, I had this thing on it. So I did a sang on them. And while I was doing that, I also had a breakfast radio show. So I was getting up early in the morning, I was doing the radio show as well. And by the end of last year, I actually I heard my voice genuinely hurt my voice. And I ended up attending an en ti and the NT, you know, examined my throat. And so what damage was thanks, thankfully, nothing long term, but enough damage that I was actually for the first time in my life in the last two months, instructed not to sing. Well, this complete rest, complete rest and also to attend a speech pathologist and a singing teacher. So for the first time ever, I've really had for a long period of time of working with a singing teacher, and I've been really looking into your voice and then where you place things and and it's extraordinary what your voice can actually do. It really is an amazing instrument. It can do things that you just wouldn't imagine that it can actually do. And it does it all from the inside. So you you know, it's not like a guitar where you can actually touch it and you can change the strings. This is all controlled by air the whole thing all controlled by air. It's a it's an amazing instrument. Yeah, it is fascinating. When you think of it like that. Did you get nodules? Is that what happened to you? Or no, I didn't thankfully. I was worried that I did. Yeah, because I had to push so hard. I had so many shows all that some time when I was sick. Thankfully, no, no long term damage at all. Basically, it was like I sprained my throat. Like so. I just had the rest of its back. And it's working really, really well. That's good. Thank goodness. Can you imagine like, did you ever go through your mind? Like, what if I can't get back to my, you know, my previous power? What will I do with myself like, was your head yeah, yeah. Oh, no, absolutely. I was I was worried sick. And like I said, thankfully, I went to the right people and the right people pointed me in the right direction. And actually, as a result of it, I think I'm coming out of it as a better singer, which is what I'm loving the most. There's there's things that I had been doing wrong because it didn't have the experience the training, there was things that I was actually I have always done wrong, that now I've fixed for going forward and I think it's already improved in the sound of my voice and it's improving my range and what I can do with the voice, which is great. Hmm, so a little bit of a silver lining to the code. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, I had COVID this time last year, and I found it took a long time for my my power to come back that like you know, just getting the air in that that was the thing that took took a really long time. So it really messes with you. It's a horrible thing. Oh somebody's like you know? Tell us a little bit about your family. I read on the internet that you've got three children. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about them. Yeah, so I'm married to Ireland. Ireland. As I said, I've met in Ireland and she's originally from Australia. So when we moved to Australia was 20 years ago, we arrived in Australia. We were broke because we were doing a run the world trip. When we decided to get jobs, I got straight into the chemistry and Ireland got into the marketing and, and within a short space of time, Australia started to feel like home to us. So it was around that point that we got pregnant with Jarvis. Jarvis is our oldest. He's 17. fast forward another couple of years along him Jagger who's 15. And then along came little Kiki she's 11 and and the the three proudest things that I've done in my lifetime. I gotta be honest, people always say, Oh, well, what's the what's the best best memories? Or what are the best moments in your life and for me, it always revolves around Island jobs Jagger and Kiki the kids and Ireland. That's really it. They all have those moments of clips, anything else, you know, there's nothing that really compares to, to spending time with them. And with the kids watching them grow and become the people that they want to become. It's it's an amazing experience. It's challenging, of course, lots and lots of but it is great. Yeah. And yeah, now that they're getting older, like you said, they're, they're developing and turning into, you know, their own real people. It's a pretty exciting time, I've got a just turned 15 year old and a seven year old and yeah, this 15 year old watching him trying to work out what to do with school and picking subjects and just thinking about the future. Now that's it's a whole new world, isn't it? It is, and it's a strange, new, we're alive. I think. I sound like an old person here. But back in my day, it seemed a lot simpler. It, it's interesting, they have so much at their disposal now with technology and with everything else, but it seems more complicated than ever, because of all that. They're the exposure that they're dealing with and, you know, impacts on on a lot their choices and impacts about their emotions and how they feel. We're back in our day, we didn't have all that at all. So you may do with what you had. Now, I find the new generation has everything. And it's hard for them to make do with it. Because if they don't like it, they move on to something else. Yeah, that whole idea of not concentrating enough time on any particular thing. I actually think that's a real challenge for this generation coming through. Well, I'm early childhood educator in my day job. And we actually were talking about this exact subject at a training I went to on last week, that they reckon that because of like the likes of Tik Tok, and in YouTube and Instagram, where the algorithms will throw things at you to keep you on there. So you might watch a little bit of something, and then it goes, Oh, they're about to get off. So let's give them this. So our brains are changing, and are only used to concentrating for really short amounts of time now, because of what we're exposed to, which is really scary. I think it's very scary. I think, from a creative point of view. It's going to, I worry that it might impact the next generation come through from a creative point of view, you know, that that whole idea of sitting down and really concentrating and creating something that's, that's been taken away? Because technology is kind of sitting in there, you've got the AI now that can write stories for you who got Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're exposed to so many different things that they don't actually have to sit down, and really concentrate in and come up with something themselves, they can actually technology can do it for them. And while that's an amazing thing, and like I say, I sound like my day sort of person, but I do worry about it. I think on one level, it can be great. And on the flip side, it can take away that whole creative side and creative sides are really what matters most to me. I love the creative world. I love seeing what people can come up with using their their talents and their abilities. It's essentially taking away what it means to be human, isn't it? It's like, you can plug this thing into a computer, and it will be will write a story or or do a painting, you know, all this? Yeah, it's just taking away what it really means to be human. I feel like it's, it's horrible. Yeah. But what to me what may happen as a result of this is that the next generation are very creative people coming through, will have to be even more rebellious than ever before, because they'll have to stand up in the past that the creative person was was often quite, quite often the the rebellious person, the person that went against society or the person who went against the norm. They've got an even bigger challenge. They're going against the norm and they're going against simplicity. Because it's, you know, if you have a feeling about something, you could always just go oh, just chant. Type it into an AI and it'll just write it for me. So they You have to be strong willed. And they have to make that really conscious decision that says, You know what, I'm going to be an individual here entirely. So that that I create something that hasn't been created before. And I think that'll pose a lot of challenges. It's like when we're breeding a whole new range of rebels that are gonna go against this next next level of technology, you will have to be an individual. There's so much stopping them from doing that. Yeah, yeah. And things always go in cycles. That's the thing I always find, like, I'm hoping that this, this AI and stuff will, will sort of ease off because people will start to go, oh, hang on, this isn't right. And it'll, you know, hopefully go against it, and take it down a notch. But we can only hope, time will tell. But on the flip side, I will say I because I'm a real. I do like technology. Because I record in my own studio and things like that. The things that you can do with technology are incredible. So it'll be it'll be that idea of finding the right balance of knowing when to switch off and when to switch off. Yours can be. Want to ask you about your other creative talents that you've actually written some books as well. When did you get into writing? Is that something you always did? Or is that a sort of a new thing you discovered? No, I always did it. I as a kid growing up, when I was very, very young, I developed OCD. Like real OCD. As opposed to a lot of people will say, Oh, I'm an OCD because I have my house clean. This is more than just the OCD that actually impacts your day, your day to day activities, on and off light switches and all this crazy stuff. But I developed that as a young age. And one of the mechanisms for dealing with it was the right to take the thoughts that I had and put them into some sort of writing. So from a very young age, I used to write plays. I love writing plays and and I wrote them in primary school and secondary school and, and that writing eventually moved into stories. And then books. So actually the first book that I got published, I'd written before I even went on Australian Idol and I wrote it while I was traveling in the UK. I love it. I love writing, it's one of my favorite things is to just get lost in a story. Again, that's why I'm also passionate with with artistic things and doing that. It's great for the mind as well. So if you have you written anything like you talked about running plays, have you written anything that's been put on as a production. I went back years ago, again, when I was writing most of the plays, I had nearly all of them put on at different points. But it was also on an amateur level, little amateur drum societies. I've asked him to put it on the do table reads and actually, I've had it luckily I've had a few of them put on. And I love that. So it was just fantastic to see see these things coming to life, and then also gave me an opportunity to act on them. Yeah, so you got to live out that dream as well. Yeah, exactly. But I like to say I love writing plays. And I started off with plays because I wasn't much of a reader. I didn't like reading. So I didn't have the vocab to to really describe things. So I started off with plays and then as time went on, I got into reading and developed the you know, better language and better ways of describing things and and that led to the books. And you write fiction work? Yeah, I suppose the the books that are released so far, both fiction, one is a guy traveling through Nepal, backdrop of the most. The poor enforcement of Nepal, we myself, my wife, Eileen, we traveled through Nepal during our honeymoon. We saw how politically it was going through an awful tough time. And that was kind of an inspiration for the for the book. And it was about a guy with OCD traveling in that sort of environment. So it had little, little elements of being in there as well. Yeah. Essentially, it was a kind of psychological thriller. Yeah. And then the second book was, again, it was a had a psychological element to it, but it was about a father and a son growing up in the troubles of Ireland. And the two of them how they cope with grief and loss and also their own relationships. So again, it's more of a psychological story. But what I love doing, give me a chance to write about it. And then reminisce. Yeah. Oh, that's nice. You can sort of incorporate the two sort of fiction nonfiction together. Do you have any writing at the moment? Are you working on another book or anything? I actually I have a book. I was, I wrote another book. I'm trying to walk republishing. So this one is a kids book. Oh, cool. Yeah. So we the book is finished. We're now at the second stage of editing it. So hopefully, it'll be out later this year, or maybe the start of next year. Oh, fantastic. Are you allowed to share what it's about? Or is it a bit secretive at the moment, I can give a little idea. Now, it's, it's more in the style of Roald Dahl. And that's probably the audience I, I always told bedtime stories to my kids. And I have hundreds of these have also recorded them. So I've still got them on my phone. Oh, cool. Yeah. But along the way, there was one story, I started to tell the kids. And it ended up being one of those continuation stories where you say, oh, you know, to find out what happens next, in your bed this time tomorrow night. And I ended up recording, you know, chapters of this whole thing I listened back to about a year or so ago. And that's, you know, that could really lend itself to a good story. So I sat down and start writing it. But ultimately, it's about two sisters who get separated when when they're very, very young. They're in the care of a horrible, horrible lady who only wants to take them on board, as foster kids purely to use them to clean up or disgusting house and to slave them around the place. But in the midst of all that, they get separated. And then it fast forward to many years later. And these these kids have got to find each other. But the horrible lady still had to get them and you know, follows that sort of path. Oh, that sounds exciting. Oh, good luck with that, oh, we're looking for that when it comes out. That's fantastic. worrying, because that's what the old folks to say. You can always tell the beggar from the fee. But you know, that I love that about you. Today, to ask you a bit more about yourself as a as a father, have you found with your songwriting, since you had two kids that you've sort of changed how you write or what you write about, is it they sort of inspire you a little bit? It always inspires me? Yeah, for me Sunland, and has always been linked to personal things in my life. So all was personally driven. And definitely once the kids came along, all the songs came, you know, all the songs that I started writing had some sort of family influence, whether it be discovering that, you know, for instance, and could like a couple examples, not just for the weekend was on one of my first albums that that song was purely about my son Jagger getting to take him home from hospital. That's really what it's about. That moment of knowing that, hey, you actually get to take him home from hospital a lot of other people couldn't, for different reasons, premature babies and all sorts of situations why they couldn't bring their gorgeous little child home from hospital. But we did. And we got got to experience a beautiful moment. So I wrote a song about that. song Beautiful. I wrote about my wife, Eileen. There's a song that I've got coming out later on the year, which is first day of school. And that's all about dropping my daughter to school for the first time. And then my thoughts about Well, I had to give her away to school on that day, and I had the lever and then a password to actually keep it away on our wedding day. Yeah. Yeah. Together. Yeah. And then there's another son called Son for Jarvis. And like, literally, it states exactly who it's for. Yeah. Do the kids. Do they know that you're writing about them? Like, do they feel that sort of connection that this is really cool. But dad write songs for us? Oh, well, I don't know. Actually. Yeah. Yeah, I've never openly told him that the songs are for them. They just hear the songs and they're like them. It's funny. They're all at that stage where they've got their own interests, their own, what they like and what they what they don't like. So I never pushed music down their throats at all on any level. It's always there for them. And if they if they want to get involved, or if they want to sing or if they want to hear something. I'm there for them. But there's definitely no never any pressure for them even to listen to my songs. Yeah. Are they do they play? Are they musical? Yeah, they're all really musical. Yeah, they're there. They love acting. They're all in musicals as well, local musical societies. But they all play and they all sing as well. So it's great. It's seen it and it's great. Seeing that they just do it because they want to. Yeah, that's a big thing. I think like I grew up us for 20 years I sang in this vocal group. And we got to this age, we all started having kids around the same time. And some of the girls were like, really wanted their children to follow in their footsteps and seeing them, whatever. And I was like, Ah, I don't know, I don't think my kid would stand still long enough on stage to sing. So I never put any pressure on him. And, and even when he's like, playing music, like my husband and I both play, but that's our Do you want me to teach you anything? Or show you something? No, I don't want to. And now, all of a sudden, at the age of was about 13 and a half, how do you decide you want to play the bagpipes? So it definitely didn't come from us. It was. So I think I think it's good just to let them go and see where they end up. And yeah, even when you're really you're really passionate about music yourself. It's like you don't want to, you know, push them so much that they start to resent it, because you're always on their back about playing something. So, yeah, well, we're exactly the same. We're just like I said, it's there. If they want to learn something, if they just got a passion for something, and they want to get lessons, we try to provide that for them. But it's really over to them. They what is gorgeous to see is that they have shown interest anyway. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. Because you are saying to someone the other day on the on a recording that you just want your kids to experience music because it's so awesome. Like, you just, you just want them to see how amazing it isn't because you love it so much. It's like you want them to, to experience all the wonderful things about it to know what am I sort of? Yeah, and what it can do for your life. Because music. I mean, you know, so many hospitals use now musical music as a way of, of helping people through all sorts of traumas and all sorts of treatments, because music has that ability to raise spirits, or as we said earlier on with the Irish music, to allow you to talk about things or get your emotions out. So music is such an important thing. And if anyone can discover and discover Laufer can really help them in their life, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I sort of said to my son, like, he's at the age now where everyone's all his mates are getting jobs. And he's not quite ready for that yet, sort of, he hasn't sort of he's still organizing his way through school. Yeah, he's not quite ready to add anything else to it. But I said like what you're doing with your SyncML you with the music, like he paid plays in the local Pipe Band. It's like you're learning all those skills about cooperation and compromise and you're listening to others and you know, you can learn so much from playing music with other people. Yeah, absolutely. Being in a bounder being in some sort of organization is a great thing. Really is and you make great friends as well. So why not? Yeah, absolutely. Now take you home. Not just for the weekend. Jays days. Welcome in and I give you not just for this moment. Now, I want to mention and hopefully I'm not going to go on about this too long. I'm a massive Beatles fan. And I was very excited to talk to you about your show that you're doing the songs of Lennon McCartney to have Darren COVID So who's your favorite Lennon or McCartney? Oh, it's a controversial one, isn't it? Funnily enough when we do the show, so Darren, and I, you know, we don't it's like anything that I've done in the past. I never tried to mimic anyone. I just tried to pay homage to him. I just liked them. And I just sing their songs. That's really what it is. Yeah, I put me off when we do the show. I seem to do a lot more of the Lennon songs than I do the McCartney songs. Even though if I'm being totally honest, McCartney is my favorite. Yeah, candy is my favorite G and also your voice to you. You've got their higher voice which is sort of like older thought you'd do more of those high harmonies that Paul does. I do I do a lot of the when we perform together Darren and I, I'll take on the Paul McCartney harmonies a lot of the time but when we the individual songs, I seem to always end up on the Lenin songs. So just a just a wetlands. The way we do the show. We play guitar, but I also play the piano and I think you know, Lennon has some beautiful piano songs. So I think that's why I kind of landed there. Yeah, yeah, it's, I don't know, I was listening to some stuff this morning because I've got like, got them on my USB in the car. And it always blows my mind how they created so much and so such diversity and such experimentation but there are only active for 10 years together. You just think how how can you do all of that as a band in 10 years like that just blows my mind. It is it Amazing thing. But you know, it's an interesting thing you think of when you're in a band situation. It's so insular. It's your own little world. And if the band work really well together, I think back about when we had our family band, my two brothers, my sister myself, that was probably one of the most creative times I ever had was when I was writing nonstop, obviously not right, not writing classic like The Beatles, but the influence of being around people like that, and being around you know, other musicians who want the same thing. So when when you're driving each other to come up with great ideas. It's amazing how much actually happens. So each other and bouncing off each other and maybe competing with each other. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's an amazing thing. But they were they were incredible. The bagels, they it wasn't even just what the creators what they created so young as well as their insight on life was amazing for people that were essentially just kids. Yeah, like, honestly, I just think of him and I just I can't fathom how they did what they did. And then to still go on, obviously, linens no longer with us. But you know, Paul, still making music now. It's just, it's amazing. But I wanted to ask you do you have a favorite album, or I was always the White Album, where I was, and the reason being for the White Album, my brother Paul had a tape cassette of The White Album. In our little tour van. Back when we were kids gigging around Ireland. It was all stuck in there. We listened to non stop it was just so I kind of fell on that album purely because it was the only album we had in the car. I just love it and I knew every single song backwards and forwards and but I do love all the other albums rather off Sergeant Pepper's the whole the Abbey Road. They're all they're all amazing albums. Yeah, I go like White Album and revolver are my top two. They're the two that I go back and forth between the love revolver, but then they sort of there's some stuff I just think, I don't want to say they lose me on some stuff. But I just think God, they must have been having a hell of a time when they recorded some of this stuff. There is some random songs not everything was called. A lot of stuff. I mean, early albums, I think of Uber soul, but maybe not that one. The one of the the early albums where the do more of the pop songs. This, this is really only what two or three really good songs and some of those albums are for me anywhere. Yeah, I know what you mean. Like, yeah, like, was it with the Beatles, or one of those? I can see the cover of it for I can't think of what it is. But yeah, some of them you just think oh, no, I don't need to listen to this. And some of them sound so similar to it's that typical, like 12 bar blues like rock and roll sort of thing. That's just a no yeah, it was a was there was still experimenting with this sound. On the way through, yeah, but wow, they were amazing. I can't really criticize any of them. They were they were all kept with. God forbid, like Alison sits here and criticizes the betas. No, we're not gonna take no, we're not gonna do that. They knew what they were doing. Yeah, that's pretty special so one of the topics I like to talk to all my mom guest on the show, is topic of mum guilt, which we sort of say is like, you know, mums feel bad if they're not doing things for their kids or with their kids. And it's difficult to take that step away and, and do something for yourself. And I've had dads that I've chatted with on the show, it's not the same sort of thing. It's, I think, because the mother is, you know, it's ingrained in your DNA, I guess, because you, you birth for children, but I wondered if you had any thoughts on sort of yourself and I don't want to say dad guilt because I don't think it's a great term. But do you ever sort of feel that pull between wanting to be home but you know, you're doing what you love and in your career and doing whatever it? Is that something that goes on for you? Oh, absolutely. No, no, no question. I find every day is a balancing act like every single day. So it's not even just being on the road touring or anything like that. Even on a day to day basis. There's things that I would love to be doing things that I think I should be doing. But there's a lot of things that the kids need me to do as well. There's things that I need to be there for them with and it could be simple thing six months In simple things, it could be things like homework, or it could be helping them with something, it could be just listening to them. On the flip side, it could be, you know, really spending quality time with them. And you do. I think there's a point that comes in as a parent where you those sacrifices are necessary, you have to make them that it's necessary. But it's again, trying to find the balance, trying to find some way that allows you to give them as much as you can possibly give them but still be yourself and still stay intact in who you are. Because if you start losing who you are in the process, then they're not getting the full benefits of the parent that they could have. That sounds weird, but this just makes total sense. Because that's something that a lot of moms talk about, you'd feel like you literally lose yourself, because you've got to give so much to these other people. There's little, there's little people that can't do things for themselves, and they need so much support. And then your your identity literally sort of dissolves for a period of time. So yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. And sometimes your your sense of humor can disappear and things like that. And you never want that to go away. As a parent, we all fall into that role of a it's our job to guide our kids and to discipline our kids and to be the responsible person for the kids. But the kids also need that sense of humor that you have or that that childishness that you have yourself because we all still have that in us as well. Kids need that as well, then kids love that. And only we're being ourselves, do we expose the kids to those sorts of sides of our personalities? And you know, and that is, that is where the balance has to be right? You got to try and find a way to always still be you be the person that you've always been, but also been the responsible parent at the same time. Yeah, it's just a constant juggle, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And it changes nonstop. And yes, older. It's new problems, and it's new things that you got to deal with. And it doesn't get any easier. Just yeah, it gets different that CD, isn't it? Yeah. With the that's what I'm finding with my to like, with the age gap. I feel like I'm literally in two different worlds at one time, just depending on which child I'm talking to you. It's just, you know, and I guess you'd be saying, you know, 11 and 17. There's a big, big gap of life in there, isn't there? Absolutely different, different needs different, different things happening in their life? He very much she's just a young, she's 11. You know, and a lot of the things that she'll talk to me about, even though she seems sometimes I think she's a 20 year old, but yeah, but still, you know, she still has that useful way about her work. Job is on the flip side, just got his driving license to contend with, that's a whole new world that we're about to step into. Yeah, it is a new world, isn't it? Yeah. I've already told my husband that I'm not having anything to do with teaching the boys how to drive that can be his job because they just I don't think I would cope very well. No, it is nerve racking. Yeah, you know. Anyway, I'm so happy he got his license. But then on the flip side, I was only talking about earlier on this morning. The worry set in the second Oh no. Now they're driving on the road no parent around and that becomes a whole other worry. Anyway, so it works. Yes. You've just got to hope that you've instilled in them you know, the best you can to take care of themselves and others and making those good decisions and yeah, you can't you can't keep them locked up forever. So no, you can I mean back in the old days of 17 they were working at home yeah, that's so true. Yeah, absolutely no, you're just want to get the colors you borrow something the books got some big shows coming up. I I'm doing the orchestra shows. We just yeah, we just we just want to we did want to Melbourne last weekend and later on the air we're in Sydney and a camera so it's a fork so 35 people on stage with me so it's a massive massive show. So they're the big ones but I've lots of other shows coming up and and obviously the book and all the rest of there's a lot going on over the next while. Yeah. Hopefully people keep on coming to the shows and then join them. Oh, that's exciting. Now Good on you. Do you do private will you Bri The Mind if I sit here down by your graveside and rest for a while in the wound summers I've been walking no Dan, I'm nearly done. See so much for coming on Damian has been such a pleasure to chat to you and thank you for sharing all your thoughts and all the the ups and downs and ins and outs of being a dad and being a creative that yeah, thanks again. Not a problem. My pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Take care. Bye. takes 20 to say thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Breanna Churchill US author and educator S4 Ep96 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Breanna Churchill who is an educator, author and mother of 2 boys from Illinois USA. Initially Breanna thought she was going to be in the performing arts area, or journalism, however her desire to serve was overwhelming and she went into the field of early childhood education. She holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Early Childhood with a concentration in Child and Family Services. Her professional experience includes working as a teacher, child-care director, tutor, and family/community service worker. Breanna is now a full-time home educator, Sunday school teacher, author of children's books and founder of The Brown Bear Book Club. The club empowers parents/guardians and educators with book ideas, activities, tools and tips for young children. Parents/guardians and educators can stay connected with her latest book releases and early childhood resources, One of Breanna's missions in life is to empower, educate, encourage, and inspire parents and guardians and educators of young children. Breanna - instagram / website / youtube Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to another edition of the podcast. It is such a pleasure to welcome you for whatever you're listening all around the world. This week, my guest is Brianna Churchill. Brianna is an educator and author and a mother of two boys from Illinois in the USA. Initially, Brianna thought she was going to be in the performing arts area or journalism. However her desire to serve was overwhelming. And she went into the field of early childhood education. She holds a Bachelor of Science degree in early childhood with a concentration in Child and Family Services. Her professional experience includes working as a teacher, a childcare director, a tutor and a family community service worker. Breanna is now a full time home educator, Sunday school teacher, and she's an author. She's also the founder of the brown bear book club. The club empowers parents and guardians and educators with book ideas, activities and tools and tips for young children. caregivers can stay connected with her latest book releases and early childhood resources through the club. One of Brianna's missions in life is to empower, educate, encourage, and inspire parents and guardians and educators of young children. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much Brianna, for coming on. It's such a pleasure to welcome you today. Oh, I'm so glad to be here. So glad to be here. Thank you. Oh, no, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you in America. So my family and I we live in Illinois, in the Midwest of the United States. And we were just chatting before that it's it's quite nice. The weather there at the moment about you're saying like 80s Fahrenheit, so about 26 degrees in the Celsius. Yes, very nice here right now. I'm a bit jealous. I was just just saying I just been away in Queensland for a week in the sunshine every day swimming, swimming in the ocean swimming in the pool and just, I don't know, just the best and then come back here where it's today. It's 13 Celsius. So I'm just gonna look at what that is for you guys in the Fahrenheit. Yes, we're interested to see what that conversion is. About 55 Just a little cool. Yeah, I mean, we don't get like we don't get snow here. So it's not this is probably the coldest maybe 10 to 13 in winter during the day. Uh huh. But it just it just seems to last so long like it'll this will be like us now till probably October maybe September October and I just feel like half the years just like yes. I totally, totally understand I can only imagine. But no, nevermind is worse things in the world. So I should really shouldn't complain about weather. But when I used to live in Chicago, it would get below zero negative 17. Oh, yes. Free say yeah, yes. Oh my gosh. That's not that's still complaining. Yeah. Yes. So cold. You can feel the frost on your face. Oh, man. Yes. That's a whole new one. Tea All right, so now tell me about what you do. I know that you're an author. And you also run the brown bear Book Club, which is pretty cool. Share with us. Yeah. What you too? Yes. So I'm the founder of the brown bear Book Club, which is all about empowering parents and educators with resources, books and resources for young children. And through the brown bear book club, I have a YouTube channel I, I write children's books, I design, adult notebooks and journals. Because as we know, as parents and educators, we need our tools to keep us refreshed. So we can be ready for the little ones. Yeah. And yes, so your background, I was reading your you're trained as an early childhood, or I guess, early childhood educator, that's what my words over here in Australia. Yeah, it is. Yes. If you've always been interested in in children in that those early years of learning? Yes, I would definitely say I've always been interested in creating fun things with children. So I would I'm very much so hands on. Educator and so music and art, and I love the messy painting. I love creating musical instruments with recycled materials. And so I've always enjoyed. Even as a child, I was very just love writing love. Just engaging in just fun sensory activities outside. And so now, as an educator, I would say the interesting thing, though, when I was in high school, I honestly thought I was gonna go to a performing arts school. Because my passion was really in acting and journalism. But when I got to college, I do have a passion to serve and, and help children as well. And so I kind of use the creativity of being in drama club and writing. I've always I've been writing probably since I was eight years old. And I put all those things and I tried to create a fun learning environment for children and my children as well. Yeah, I love that. I'm, I'm trained as an early childhood educator to, and probably not to the same level as you. But I work in a kindergarten at the moment, like the preschool. And I can totally relate to what you're saying. Because, like, I find that my experience in performance and singing and just having that ability to share yourself really vulnerably I think is really important when you're with kids. There's a lot of yes, a lot of people I've met over the years, they get really nervous about singing in front of kids. And it's like, you don't have to put on a performance for kids. You're literally just sharing your voice. And the kids don't care what you sound like they just want you to be involved. So I sort of I can I can totally relate to what you're saying. Because I feel like kids, they see right through you if you've if you're have got a persona that's not genuine or you know, you're trying to pretend you're someone else, like you're not being true to yourself that kids will see right through you. So I feel like having that confidence in knowing yourself and feeling comfortable in your own skin, which I think comes from being a performer as well. It just works so well with your kids. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. So you have two children of your own, how old are your boys? So my oldest is four and my youngest is two. So just two boys. So we are full of lots of adventure over here. Oh, I bet. Yeah. So you will be actually starting kindergarten in the fall. Oh will be. Yeah. I love it. So do you find since you've had huge Children that you've got like a whole new level of like inspiration when it comes to what you're creating for, you know, the kids that you're serving? Absolutely, especially with children's books, all of my children's books have been inspired by my children. And so they definitely have a huge influence. And then the other half is the after becoming a mom, I wanted to be experiences that I gained classroom, and in the field of early childhood, I wanted to still share that. So that's why the brown bear book club came is using the education experience to share that with others. And then I feel like once I became a mom, I also gained another level of experience, and being able to relate with parents of young children from a parenting perspective. And so I take all that into consideration when I write children's books or any type of resource for families or educators. Hmm. Yeah, I think that's really important because some some books that you read, and I'm sure you've come across them in the past to some books you read, you can just tell, there hasn't been a lot of consideration given to, I don't know, a lot of things that you know, the person that's got to read this book, you know, they've got to, you know, get something out of it, too. And actually, I was speaking to some ladies yesterday, I was interviewing for the the episode that will come out this week, that they've written a children's book, but it's actually aimed at mothers. So you know, there's so beginning in you know, different layers of content and things to make you think. And then things that are spark conversations and that sort of stuff. So yeah, there's it's a whole, it's, it's a lot more complicated than it sounds, isn't it? Really when you think, yes, writing book kids, but there's so much goes into it? Yes. Yes. It's so many components to think about, you know, and actually, with my newest book, The little bird who wanted to fly it was my four year old who even helped me come up with the title. Yeah. Just because I mean, that's to the book is designed for young children. And I think, yeah, definitely, you want to make sure you are targeting them in a way that they can stay engaged? Oh, yeah. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. So what sort of themes do you like to explore within your books. So some of the topics that I like to explore is I try to, I always try to, when I write children's books, I always try to, number one, make sure that it's captivating. So the element of literacy, whether it's kept captivating language, whether it's colorful illustration, some of the concepts, as I'm thinking about my latest book, is life lessons. So teaching children, you know, not to give up the first time you try to be patient to persevere the challenges. But then I also tried to include, you know, interactive moments where children can move and they can dance, and there's like, the birds are singing. And so I tried to have a mix of, you know, life lessons, especially in the last book that I wrote, mixed with movement. My second book had a lot of onomatopoeia, so lots of like, expressive words, wash, and bang, and boom, and we were actually I've created my own song. So that went to my second book. And so, yeah, I'm a I'm a musical educator, so everything has a song. I sing all the time as a mommy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I noticed in one of the photos that you sent me that when you're reading the book, and it's almost like you're performing the book, you know, you're standing up, you've got your props, you know, it's a nice experience for the kids. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes, I tried to captivate and engage children, we get up, we dance, we move I have my little bird puppet. And so I think, especially with young children is super important. Absolutely. So I find that, you know, depending on the age or the experience of a child in a certain setting, it's really hard for kids to sit down and concentrate for long periods of time. And, like you like what you're talking about is amazing. And you're not only like in Australian and you've probably got you guys have it there too. But in Australia, we have all these particular things that you have to teach, you know, like curriculum based stuff so you can you can relate to see, you're covering like your movement expression and, and all that sort of stuff. So it's like, really good. Yes, yes, I try. And I think When I'm writing, I try to think about well, as a teacher and as a parent, what are some concepts that I want to put in there along with the story. And so, like the latest one, it has math, it has color recognition, it has, you know, movement, music, all the different things, anything, I can try to encompass the full package to make it easier. So yeah, that's brilliant. I love that I'm gonna have to get hold of some of your books being here. I love it. It's just like you said it. It's, it's literally you're getting all of that. All of that education, all of that knowledge and value for children into one book. And they haven't even noticed you doing it to like, they just, you know, now. It's really easy, creative ways. Yeah. It's funny. On a completely side note, my seven year old had to come with me to work the other day. And he was playing and he said, Ah, he said, it's at kindy it's different to school. They don't teach you anything. And I said, Oh, yeah, I said, you don't realize that you're learning like because you're learning through class and right away this is so important. So it took talking about when you became a mum, did you find your transition to motherhood? I don't want to say it was simple because I don't think it's ever simple. But how did you find like the change in your identity and and how you saw yourself sort of adjusted when you became a mum? What a question. Um, I feel like when I became a mom, a mother, I felt like I wanted to be present. And so that so I went from teaching full time to my last my last school year, I knew that I always wanted to be home with my kids after we had children. And so I was actually I think I was very excited to be a mom. But then, once motherhood came, I realized that it was harder than I thought. And I found myself kind of hard on myself. Because being in the early childhood field, you think about all the different things that you know, you want to expose your, your child to, and so far is my identity. I felt like I just wanted to be a I just wanted to be this great educator, mom, like I wanted to do all the things. And the idea of well, after I became a mom, maybe within later within that year, I said, Well, I want to share these activities that I'm doing with my baby. I want to share these activities with the world. And shortly after. It wasn't the brown bear book club, it actually started as our home our classroom. Yeah. And I would just share activities, whatever music or art activities we were doing. And eventually, when my son was a young toddler, we were trying to learn the alphabet. And that's when the ABC my first ABC transportation book, that was my first book, and that was born. But as far as my identity overall, I think I was just in a place of, I just want to be this great mom that educates her children. And but I think it it was lots of twists and turns and it was harder than I thought. Yeah. I often joke with people that childcare educators, early childhood educators have the worst behaved children. And I'm not saying I'm not making preservatives. It's funny, like, you know how to talk in a particular way to kids, and you do it all day long. Yeah. And then you talk to your kids like that, and they they don't listen to you. It's actually joking with the mom last night on the way after we finished work, because I couldn't get my son to open the gate. He was just being so silly. He just wanted to shut the gate, you know? And I'm like, yeah, like, I don't know. It just reminded me that when you were talking about how you want to give the kids so much, and it's like, I don't know, do you feel like oh, you've got nothing left for because you give it to? No, that is so true. I mean, and I'm all about apologizing even such hildren you know, even to my children, and I feel like I mess up every day. And I'm just like, I'm not perfect. And I apologize. And but you know, I think children need to see that because then they learn what from us and my son. Now he's heard me say, Will you forgive me? Sometimes he when he makes mistakes, he says, Mommy, do you forgive me? And I'm like, oh, so yeah, yeah, it can definitely be difficult at times. But it's so worth it's such an adventurous journey. Motherhood? Absolutely. Yes. And all the twists and turns and. So at the moment, is this something that you're you're spending all your gleichen basically a full time, sort of days on? Or you're doing some classroom teaching? Or how's it sort of look for you? Well, right now. So as an author, and an educator with a brown bear with my business at Brown Bear book club, I get up early mornings. So usually, I'm up before, up by between 430 and 5am. So I start Yeah. So I usually start my morning, I started my morning usually have a little bit of a quiet time. And then after I have some quiet time, I will. Sometimes I'll exercise just kind of depends. And then after that, I'll work for a few hours. And then usually my kids are up somewhere around 839 o'clock, and then I homeschool. So we start with, you know, our activities. And then I'll work again in the afternoon for just a couple of hours. So part time. Yeah, very flexible. This is kind of how I wanted it to be. That's lovely, isn't it, that you've got that and you've got your children with you. And you're also sharing, you know, that love that you have the passion? How awesome? Do you ever like pinch yourself like, This is amazing. My life is so good. Ah, I don't know, if I pinch myself. I think I'm always I think for me, one thing I'm learning about motherhood and being an author and an educator is I'm kind of just like children develop in each phase. I feel like I'm also developing as a mom. And so I find myself rearranging my schedule, based off of their development. And so I think that's what's been helpful, and I'm still learning, I'm learning every day. And that's the thing that children like, you know, obviously, you know, they they change so quickly, you know, they get into a video phase, and then all of a sudden, that's gone and something else is happening. So yeah, but yeah, just it's like a skill really? Yeah. Yeah. Do you find that, in addition to, you know, doing your Homeschooling with your boys, you're obviously using your creativity in that element, but do you find it, it's really important that you have something for yourself? You know, that's, honestly, it's just yours because obviously sharing it with others, is something that's yours is yours, you know? Yes, I think it's important. Honestly, I think that creativity is part of keeping a healthy mental health as a parent, as a mother, especially those who are creatives. Like if you are a creative mom, doing something creative is part of your self care. You know, it's something that fuels you it refreshes you. And so for me, like what I journal almost every day, so if I'm not writing a children's book, I'm journaling or I'm reading or music, singing or something, because I feel like that's as a mom that I feel like I thrive off creativity. I used to make jewelry, too, but I had to make a decision, either. Continue making sure We are focused on my career as an author and right now that's kind of where I'm focusing on right now. But, um, yeah, so I think it's, it fuels me as a mom, you know, refreshes me to be to have that outlet of okay, I'm just gonna write for a little while and it's so calming, it's soothing. And I love writing. Yeah. And designing to like when I designed the journals. Just yeah, it's just like, yeah, so much fun. I could absolutely relate to that. It's like, you're literally it feels like you just get this fresh energy and whatever, whatever you were doing out there. sort of disappears. And then you can get back like super refreshed and yes, you can handle anything. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yes. You talked about one of your boys helps you come up with the title for the book of Hana. They sort of feel I'm gonna say how they feel about it. But is it exciting for them? Do you think that they can see that their mom is creating these things? You know? So I think they just now realized that I'm an author. Because prior to like, my first two books, I didn't even tell them because I wanted, I wanted to see if my book was going to actually captivate them. It wasn't going to be a book that they liked, regardless if they knew that I was the author behind it. With this last one, because I'm doing more bookstores and breeding everywhere, they know, like, okay, my oldest particularly he knows that. I'm writing books, and I'm an author. And he oftentimes I bounce ideas off of him. Yeah. So but, but no, I think right now, they're still so young. I don't think that they really, totally understand the fullness and, and that's fine with me. I'm not a person that wants to be like, Hey, I'm, I'm an author, or, you know, I'm, I'm kind of fine with, you know, being behind the scenes. And yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, I haven't a lady on an author think it was last year. And when her son realized that she was writing books, he was like, telling everybody on my mom write this book, take it. My mom can come and read a book to you at school. We're like, so proud. So beautiful. I love I think it's important for children to see their mums do from you know, mothering them? Yes. Yes. And I and I, one of the things that I'm hoping to do, especially as my children get older, is invite them more into the process of like, especially like when I'm doing the story times, if they want to help me, you know, do something pass out stickers to the kids or, you know, well, in the stories, they're usually part there, they know how the story ends. So they're very interactive. They come to the storytimes. But it's, it's refreshing because it's a career that I feel like I can do with my kids because it is picture books right now. So yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. So one of the things I like to chat to my moms about on the show is this concept of mom guilt or mommy guilt or however you want to term it. Is that something that you've got some thoughts on? Is that something you've you feel or don't feel or? Yeah, what do you think about that? I feel I think in the early stages, I felt it a little bit more. Mom guilt, especially if I felt like I didn't get everything done that day, like in the house. Like if things were just kind of Yeah, No, gotta go. But the house is a wreck. Not done, but I gotta go to writers group tonight or, or if I feel like I wasn't as engaged with my kids that day. Sometimes, sometimes that can make me feel like mom heal. But here lately, especially after having my second child, I realized that when I do step away, like when I go to writers group or if I have a book interview that my kids can't come to. I have, I've learned to be okay with it. Because I'm like, I was with them. We had quality time, I will be back. I'm only gone for an hour. I'm usually most interviews are don't take very long. And so I tell myself, my children are safe, they're fine. And I don't feel guilty because I know that, well, I'm not gone every day. It's not like I'm, you know, I purposely chose to be an author so I can control my, you know, my schedule, you know, even as an educator, I'm not gone all the time. I think that if I had a more demanding career where I'm gone all the time, then I think it would be harder for me to leave. But I think because right now everything is pretty flexible. I don't feel as bad No, I don't feel bad at all anymore. Really. Because I feel like I yeah, I've given you know, mommy will be back, I'll be back in an hour. And I always tell them that I'll be back. Like when I have writer's group out, I'm going to write this group back here, or Mommy has an interview with someone, I'll be back in there with their dad, my husband is very hands on. And they love their daddy, and I don't leave them with anybody. So it's usually daddy or their aunts. And they usually have a blast with them. And that also helps me feel great knowing that they're in good hands. And you know, yeah, yeah, no, that's good to hear. I think mom guilt, just this thing that I didn't know, they could suck us down if we let it. But you know, yes, it can. It can. But we have to give ourselves grace. You have to give yourself grace to know that. When I it's kind of like when you go to create something, whether you're an artist, and you're painting or writing music, me writing stories or journaling. Knowing that when I leave and when I come back, I'm going to be refreshed and ready to be better for them. So it's not like, I'm leaving, and then I come back and I'm like, Alright, um, you know, yeah, but I think it I think when you do something that you love, and I even believe when you're doing the thing that God has called you to when you do it, you come back refreshed and refueled as opposed to you know, I'm not to say you don't feel tired, but you know, and you're in a better mood as opposed to a bad mood. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. It Like It fills you up and it lights you up so that yeah, lights you up. Yeah, yeah. So you said earlier bet that, you know you're working full time, but you knew that you wanted to be there with your kids, like when you had kids? Is that was that like a role modeling thing that you experienced? Or have seen other people do? Or like in your own family, when you were growing up? That made you sort of want to say, No, No, quite the opposite. I grew up. My mother was a single mom. And so she worked a lot. You know, she was working a lot she was going to school and so she did the best she could with being being present with my with me and my brother. So for me, it was the fact that my mom was gone a lot. And I was like, Well, I appreciate the fact that I got to learn the importance of hard work and being professional and all the things career wise. But I knew that when I had children, I wanted to be able to be there. You know, I wanted to be present and so that was actually an inner desire that I had as a before motherhood, I'm like, I want to be the I want to I want to be that mom you know they can make the games and be there for T ball practice and, and so for me that was my desire because I grew up in the opposite situation. My mom did work a lot. And I didn't get a chance. But But I think even with parents who work a lot, because I'm sure maybe some of the listeners here, I think that you know, there's still grace because I feel like when you are with your kids, it's not always the quantity of time. It's the quality. So, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And it's sometimes, you know, your circumstances don't allow you to necessarily do yes, you know, you do things that you really want to do. So, yeah, like you said, you do the best that you can with what you've got at home. Yeah, absolutely. And I wanted to ask, too, I've noticed here in Australia that homeschooling is becoming a lot more popular. And I don't know if that's because of COVID, like when we had all the shutdowns, and everyone got used to having their kids home at school. But it's pretty popular over there, isn't it? It's a it's a real thing, isn't it? I definitely think it's a growing trend, I guess you can say, I definitely did not know that I was going to be homeschooling, this was kind of something after having our children. Then this was pre pandemic. It was kind of like, we just the church that we go to a lot of the women there were already homeschooling, and I just kind of got exposed through the community. And people start telling me about it. And I'm like, Oh, I never thought you know, I always knew that I wanted my children to go to, you know, either a private school or a Christian school, but I didn't know that I would be homeschooling. So honestly, it really came through the influence of my community, as I was connecting with other moms and families. And I'm like, okay, yeah. And then also, as an educator, and as you know, Allison, I don't know what it's like in Australia, but in the in the Illinois. Um, yeah, the education system is, you know, it's some school districts are better than others. And so I think that was also a driving force, knowing that I'm not satisfied with what I'm seeing, and in the turn, and what's going on in my current, the education system here, but there are great teachers, I do want to, I know that was a big bomb, I just dropped some great teachers. There are some wonderful teachers, my friend actually teaches kindergarten and she's amazing and love her. I still teach on Sundays, and I tutor and a commute a small group learning community. But yeah, yeah, I feel like sometimes, like the overall system, and I can think of this in a number of things like over here, the healthcare system is a bit screwed and different things. But within that, there's always really good people who are just trying their best, you know, under really difficult circumstances so I can understand what you say about the teachers. Yes, and seriously, teachers have to be the most underpaid and underappreciated group of people. I feel like for what teachers do is seriously there needs to be more recognition and yeah, more monetary recognition for them. Yes, more recognition. That is so true. I don't know in Australia. Do you guys have Teacher Appreciation Week? Is that happening this week for you guys? No, I don't I think we only get a day actually. And I'm not even sure. Okay. Teacher Appreciation Week? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was actually thinking when I saw when, when Joe Biden became the president and his wife was a teacher. For many, many years, I thought, Oh, this is good. You know, having someone up there that gets what it's like to be on the ground in the rooms, you know, dealing with it day to day? Yes. So I don't know if that's been a positive or not that. Well, honestly. You know, I I think it's so many things. I think, you know, it depends on the district that you're in. I think there's a lot of great resources out there. But I think we also have a lot of children that are coming in from different backgrounds that some teachers, a lot of teachers are not prepared for, for what what types of stuff you might be dealing with. And so I think that I mean, I don't know if you've heard but in the US teacher shortage in certain in some states is worse than others people are quitting the fields. overworked, overwhelmed and underpaid. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a thing here particular year in the early childhood, that's the biggest thing. We can't get childcare workers. That is the biggest thing at the moment. Yeah. And it's just the same thing. They're just totally overworked and realistic hours and expectations. And the pay is just not reflective of the amount of effort that you're putting in. And you're literally raising people's children, you know, you're educating last generation, and I feel like it's absolutely undervalued. I don't know. Yes. start ranting. Yes, no, I agree with you. It is undervalued. I think the teachers pay should be fair with doctors and physicians pays if not higher, because you are educating the next doctors, the next lawyers, the next judges, the next teachers, the next musicians and artists you are putting into all of that, and it's definitely undervalued. But I think parents during the pandemic, I think a lot of parents appreciate teachers a lot more than what they did. Yeah. When they can say what? Yeah, let me know what they do like a tiny, tiny snapshot of what they do. Yeah, yeah, I actually had this conversation with a fellow educator, a couple of years ago, when all this pandemic stuff was happening. And we had over here, I'm not, you guys probably had something similar, where there were particular, like, workers who were considered essential, so you could still go out and work. But then there was others that had to quarantine. And, of course, you know, teachers educators, were essential. So we were out there looking at this was when I was in childcare. And I said to, I said to this fellow educator, like, we should be the highest paid people in the on the globe right now. Because if, if yes, if these people don't have anyone to look after their children, they can't go out. And you know, be a doctor, be a lawyer, be a policeman, you know, politicians running the country who's looking after the children, you know, just blew my mind to think, like, we are so essential, if you didn't have us would happen. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Parents would have to switch careers, people would have to take their children to work. I mean, there would be without teachers. Yeah, it would not be good for a lot of families. Absolutely. I mean, imagine the amount of people that probably the mums, that wouldn't be able to, you know, pursue their dreams and their careers and, and, and also within that adding, you know, contributing to society and it would become it would take a step backwards. Like that would be like, yes, tremendously damaging. So there if anyone says, that can make any changes. Yes, that's right. That's so right. That is so right. Now, within you know, I'm saying all this stuff, but it is such a it's an incredibly rewarding field. It is it is the bed really, as thing I've ever done, you know, took me till I was nearly before I discovered this, I'm not 40 I would have been 35 Maybe discovered this whole this whole new field journey. Oh, it was amazed. Yeah. And like, why didn't I discovered this when I was, you know, out of school? I think I had to go through so many things and experience all these other things to get me to where I wanted to be. Ya know, it's it's so amazing. Yeah. Not surprising, because some of the best teachers are artists. Yeah, the best teachers are creatives people who are creative. Yeah, absolutely. Ya know, it's, especially for the early childhood years. It's just so fun. I mean, it's a lot of work. Don't get me wrong, but it's so fun. Like, I I work Wednesday, Thursday, Fridays, and I find myself on Mondays and Tuesdays thinking think about the kids are what are they up to today? And what are they going to tell me? When I see them? You know, you get really you make these beautiful connections and build these relationships with the kids and it's like, Oh, I wonder what they do? Coming up in the future tell me have you got any more books in your in the works that have? I have so right. Yeah, right now I'm in a stage so right now I'm still marked up by like this book, The Little Bird one aniseh Fly, but I am drafting up a few ideas. And so I'm in the drafting brainstorming stage of it. I have a couple of stories, a few ideas that are in the brainstorming phase I, one thing I try not to do is rough the creative process. I try to I have, I have quite a few stories that I've just written and said, I don't know. And I mean, even my last this book that's out right now, I wrote it over a year ago, and I didn't touch it for a while. And it was actually a fellow educator, one of my friends and she's like, children meet this book, you need to pick that back up. And, but sometimes I just write and I'll put it aside, and I do pray about it. And I talked to friends and I talked to my children. I'm like, What do you think about this idea? And so I don't rush it. But yes, there will be more more books. I do have a blog on my website that I've been writing more on. And I do have a YouTube channel. So I try to stay engaged with the early childhood community, especially parents and educators. So I try to keep those keep it going all year round. And yeah, there'll be more books and journals as well. So awesome. So what is the best way for people to find you? What's your website. So the best way is WWE dot Brown Bear book club.com. And I always encourage parents and educators to join the club, it's totally free. And when you join the club that just keeps you in the loop of I send out early childhood activities, book ideas, encouragement, freebies, and giveaways. And so and then any book update so as I began to work on next book, or as I'm still putting up book, marketing wise, I include people part of that journey as well. But then I also want to give back so I try to you know, whatever, like right now it's May so I just talked about teachers appreciation, freebies, and Mother's Day, different things like that. And so yep, that's how people and then the brown bear book club. Pretty much on any social media, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all that you can the brown bear book club, and you can find me there too. Awesome. I'll put all the links in the show notes for people to click away and check out what thank you so much for coming on today. Brianna. It has been so lovely to chat with you. I really enjoyed it. Yes. Oh, thank you, Alison. I'm so I'm so glad to meet you as well. This has really been awesome. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Melissa Condo Francis Australian musician, singer, songwriter and educator S1 Ep13 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Melissa Condo Francis. Melissa is a singer/songwriter, collaborator, producer and performing arts teacher from Portland Victoria, and a mum of 3. Describing her genres as wide ranging as folk, electronica, jazz and alt pop, Melissa has performed as a duo, and soloist under the guise ‘ Sleuth ’, done international collaborations and released 4 albums as an independent artist, as well as producing and performing in an operetta. She talks about the way music has bonded their family, how she deals with criticism and finding 'your people', and the challenges of writing music with your significant other. **This episode contains discussions around mental health issues, loss of a parent and grief** Connect with Melissa on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sleuthmusic11/?hl=en Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Melissa's music used with permission Spotify Listen to all recent musical guests' tracks on this Spotify playlist When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Melissa Kondo France's Melissa is a singer, songwriter, collaborator, producer and a performing arts teacher from Portland, Victoria, and a mom of three, describing her genres as wide ranging as folk, electronica, jazz and old pop. Melissa has performed as a duo and a soloist under the guise of sleuth, she's done international collaborations and released four albums as an independent artist, as well as producing and performing in an operetta. On the episode she talks about the way music has gone to their family, how she deals with criticism, and finding your people and the challenges of writing music with your significant other. This episode contains discussions around mental health issues, loss of a parent and grief. Welcome, Melissa, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming on today. Thanks for having me. So, for those who aren't familiar with your music and what you do, can you give us a rundown about the style of music you create and all that kind of thing? Yeah, so I perform and right under the artist name of sleuth, which is kind of a bit of a parody harkening back to my days in the police force, actually. But I did my music style would be eclectic, really. I've done everything from sort of folk music to electronica to hardstyle, drum and bass. What else would I have done, I've got a lot of jazz elements to quite a bit of my music, as well. And probably the more prolific music or this stuff that's been out there a little bit more than the other stuff that in the back catalogue, we'd be all pop. Yeah, it's yeah, it's really, really, I have actually been openly criticized for not picking a particular genre to stick with. But I actually like it. I do a lot of international collabs with different artists. And they're all from all sorts of different genres, which is great. So keeps it interesting. And it really pushes my creativity, I think, to be able to write two different styles. Hmm, keep keeping it keeping it really interesting. Yeah. How did you first get into music? I've, I can't remember a time when I haven't been a musician. I learned piano from age three. So sort of earliest memories. Piano from age three till about, I did formal lessons till I was about 1516 years old. And yeah, I just stuck with that, really, and a lot of music theory, had a fair amount of personal family stuff go on for about a decade after that, which meant that I was sort of not playing music or writing. And I never really, in that decade, pushed myself to do anything musically. And then just found myself in a sphere, I guess, after after meeting my husband, where I could pick it up again, which was great. So from about age 26 onwards, just re fostered that, that love of music again, and threw myself into it. guns blazing, wrote four albums, did a couple of reasonably reasonably local regional tours. And yeah, I was I was probably a bit old really to be. And I say that with a big smile on my face, because I don't believe in age, defining how creative you can be. But yeah, I was probably a little bit too old to be marketed that successfully to the current pop scene, but that's okay. It doesn't. It certainly didn't stop me doing what I was doing. And I guess I was very fortunate that I could write music as a hobby, which allowed me to be a lot more authentic with what I was writing rather than try and write to a contract. To feel obligated to push out the music. I just sort of got on a creative wave, wrote it as long as the wave lasted and fortunately Um, the right the wave sort of has subsided a little bit about probably the start of 2021. I stopped, I haven't, I haven't actually released anything of my own. Since then I've released collaborations with other artists, but I haven't. I haven't written anything since Lux was finished. That was my fourth album. So just having a bit of a rest at the moment and dealing with COVID and dealing with other other scenes. I think my life at the moment that are taking a little bit more of a forefront. School I have three children, I had three under four, which was insane. So they're currently aged 10, nine and six. So my daughter is 10 and my two sons, nearly nine and six and a half. And they are in grade four, three and one. So they're, especially with remote learning in Victoria because of lockdowns, it's pretty mentally consuming to try and get them through a school day at home. Yeah, they do. Amazingly, I think we, I was fortunate enough to be blessed with a very large, extended inlaw family. And so they've had a lot of one on one time, they've had a lot of reading, they've had a lot of the early groundwork done. So they're actually, I think, probably a dream, realistically, speaking up to homeschool, but it doesn't feel like that a lot. But yeah, I think they're, they're amazing. So where did the having the children fit in with doing your music, I think the probably the scene for me to be reviving my, my musical abilities and interest really happened when I met my husband. We've been married for 13 and a half years. And that love of music has never really left me but I sort of didn't have any space to really inject any any deliberate effort into it or any sort of passion. Obviously, a piano is not that easy to transport to various different rental properties and that sort of thing. So my, my family piano stayed with my dad. And I've only just last year got got the piano. But I've been playing on since and everything since my husband actually gifted me one. My kids I had sort of I started having children about two and a half years into being married. So my husband and I were writing mainly folk music together, and just playing very sort of small, intimate Restaurant and Bar gigs in the local music scene, which, incidentally, I found super hard to get into it. There's a lot of ego I think involved in particularly the regional music scenes in Victoria, I don't know if it's like that in the rest of the country. But yeah, the covers scene is alive and well. And certainly if you if you play covers, you can get gigs just about anywhere, if you're any good. But to play original music, it's really really hard to garner a local following. So that that probably was a factor I think in in it just being sort of more smaller, intimate stuff at first. And then I had my children wrote music at home around doing all of that. But I was lucky that I never really needed to have it as a career. So I've always had a wage from another sort of job, or alongside being a musician that I think I was fortunate as well that when I did invest money into the music, I was able to do it under a performing arts business, which was one of my side jobs. So a lot of my expenses were tax deductible. And I had a very clever accountant that knew how to make it work for me. So I was able and my husband was amazingly supportive as well, which was, which was really nice. I don't think many musicians have that level of acceptance of spending 1000s of dollars on musical equipment, so that you can record an album which of course no one's paying you to record either. So then to produce CDs then costs 1000s of dollars more, and then you're really just taking a punt on whether or not there'll be enough I often local support to buy those albums just to recover your costs. So I think I've been quite lucky. That one, I have the support from him. And then secondly, I was lucky enough to have won a couple of competitions, which funded the subsequent album that I was about to release. So I released my firt, my debut album, number anima, which was very favorably received, which blew my mind, I got a five star review from a julong music publication, then independent music magazine, which just did not expect that at all, I remember getting the email with a review and just bawling my eyes out in the kitchen because it had been 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of hours of work, unpaid, nearly, like, oftentimes causing a lot of marital tension because of the amount of focus and just sheer ignorance that I had of whatever else was going on in my family scene. Because I'm pretty singularly focused like that, I often shut things out. So I've had an amazing amount of support to allow me to do that for a period of time. So those albums, were partially funded by me winning competitions, which was nice. And then also the sales of CDs, which I don't recommend doing either. Like, I must admit, I have chosen a medium to produce albums, which is not really that financially viable, but I'm lucky that at least it's paid for itself. So as far as a hobby goes, it's not costing me any more money, which is nice. That sort of takes a bit of a strain off. But yeah, it certainly is a privilege that not many, not many musicians get to get to enjoy your children into music as well. Yeah, absolutely. They don't have a choice really. Sorry. I had, as I said, I had music lessons from age three. My kids have been learning piano from or how old were they? I think I started them at age six or seven on piano. So they all play piano and they all start read music. They all play a little bit of drums. My son Austin plays guitar and Zach is learning all those a bit little. Zara plays ukulele they write songs, my daughter actually wrote a couple of songs with a girlfriend, which is super cute. I think that she was eight at the time and her friend was nine. And they put it on YouTube. So because of course they're watching mum do these music videos at home and things like that. Because obviously, I don't have a marketing budget to spend 1000s of dollars on music videos. So I just do the home job variety. I had a rude wake up call the other day actually, on a complete side tangent, I put one of my we've just recently got a pretty nice TV at our house. It was my husband's tax return present to himself. And I put one of my YouTube clips up on the TV. And on a phone or a small laptop screen, you can't see various errors. And then you put it on a massive 76 inch television. And you can see all these little blotches on the screen where I haven't edited properly and all this sort of thing i Oh my God, that's just an amateur hour. So yeah, it's it's been interesting, but I mean, unfortunately I don't have to. I don't have to answer to anyone about my my home job music videos, which is nice. But yes, in answer to your question, getting back on topic, my kids are all very musical. And it's a great way of bonding I think, particularly with my husband and the boys. They play drums and they also play like basic guitar. So they we all swap over instruments. One of our we had a we built a music studio during the first big lockdown in Victoria in the downstairs part of our house and so we have a bass rig a drum kit thing, an electric guitar rig a couple of my since the piano, the interface for recording and a big PA system down there as well. And so we'll have that family band time a lot of the time down there and the boys will they love it. It's actually really good bonding for them with with their dad and I don't think they would have been able to do it quite so early. If it wasn't for them. Piano Lessons might be at the beginning, my husband was thought I was crazy for insisting that they do theoretical piano lessons from a young age because it was quite expensive. And so, and he just didn't see the value in it initially. And now a few years in when they're playing sight reading music themselves and learning blues riffs, with their left hand and being able to have show independence on the piano between their hands and play some really cool little little jams, which he can then put bass or guitar or drums to. It's yeah, it's quite a good bonding thing for him. And for them, as well. Oh, yeah. Do you find them that because they've learned piano? Because they know the basic skills? They can transfer that then into the other instruments? Yeah. For them? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Especially with with the drums. For Austin, he, he's quite gifted at drums. He's only eight years old, nearly nine. And he, he can play with a lot of independence between his feet and his hands. Which means that he can play quite complex drum beats, compared to basic sort of four on the floor, rock ACDC type sort of stuff, which is not criticizing it. It's a fundamental part of Australian music. And there's a reason why it's so successful and accessible as well. It's because it's just so simple. There's a lot of space in the music for everybody to ramp up the vibe when I listen to it, but he can actually do quite a lot of creative fills. And different. I'm not a drummer. So I don't know the correct word, but like different textures with different different types of drums, because of it, because of that independence. And that really transcends from from playing piano, especially blues piano. He's quite lucky. I wish I'd learnt blues piano rather than just classical. But that's where I can teach myself now I've been teaching myself drums, which is pretty exciting as well. So padded, it's great. It's very therapeutic, though. I hit that the other day. Actually, I did some interviews with some dads for like the Father's Day special. And one of the dads was like, yep, Jones is very therapeutic. Yeah, yeah. That was drinking wine, as well as the other thing I've been doing. I had a conversation about that, too. I think all of Australia is actually that that could be the way to get our economy back up and running. Apparently, we had all this wine that China wasn't buying a while ago. I'm sure it's getting put to very good use right now. We won't waste it that's for sure. Did the kids come along to gigs or some of the kids I suppose with the ages? Some of them have yeah, I've done like I said, I've done quite a lot of different types of gigs. So I've put together a few years ago, an opera ready. Operator actually, I think it's a so called deal was two events. I did one in Hamilton and one in Portland and one was called Baroque on the hill and Baroque by the bay. And that was in conjunction with Hamilton and Alexandra college. So I, I put together a performance with a student ensemble where a couple of their most gifted string students were able to join in I obviously had the the core of the ensemble with a professional musicians which were the teaching staff at Hamilton and Alexandra college. And I had a singing student of mine, Medline and Meister performed the soprano to Starbuck murder and I performed the Alto part. And so that was the the settings for those two performances were in churches, one in Hamilton, one in Portland. And so the kids were able to come to that, which was really quite special for me because obviously, there's a certain amount of discipline and rigor that is involved in performing a 45 minute opera. That, like, I just rehearse, I was obsessed with it. I was obsessed with most of my projects anyway, musically, but there was I think the kids knew every single note of the opera by the time by the time I actually performed it. They had had heard it being rehearsed every hour of every waking minute of every day. So you Yeah, they, it was good for them to see that performance get put together. And then there's been a couple of other performances that they've been out. And most of them, though, are in pubs and wine bars and things like that. So it's not really suitable for the kids to attend. And I think it's certainly, because we're not famous enough to have our own roadies to do all the gigs set up for us. gigs where we're having to stuff the car with all the PA gear and transport it means that there's no room for children in the car. So those gigs I've been very fortunate to have my inlaws out at, but my kids have certainly seen me on bigger stages like the foreshore, New Year's Eve and, and that sort of thing, where I've had a proper tech crew and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, that's and they, I've talked to some parents whose children do that, do this. When you're stopped, your kids wouldn't be like that. And I think it's actually been, it's taken a long time for my daughter to decide that my music is actually okay. But there was a really special moment that I had, when my kids were doing swimming lessons at the local YMCA. And this is long time ago, right before the release of ombre anima, which was my debut album that I'd been obsessively working on the nine songs on that album. And so the kids had heard it all over the house, they'd had it in the car when I was dropping them off to school so that I could get an idea of what it sounded like on different speakers and all sorts of things. And they were very sick of it. And they were at the YMCA with school swimming lessons, and I had turned up with my laptop to sit on the side of the pool and do the good mum thing and watch my kids or pretend to watch my kids have swim lessons. And so I had my headphones in, and I had my laptop there and I was listening to music and rehashing different bars and that sort of thing to just see what what sort of mixing I'd need to adjust on it. Not an optimal mixing environment. I know. But I was. It was my first album, give me a break. And I had heard I heard over like it was so it's such a surreal moment. My kids were in the pool behind me. I was sitting was poolside and then all of a sudden on the PA system of the YMCA can blaring my song in the dark. And I didn't realize at first I was sick because I had headphones in and that was the song I was working on. I was like what's going on here. And I took my headphones out and I looked over and the local water aerobics class had chosen that song because they obviously knew I was there to do their water aerobics class. And so they just bled it at the top of their of their system through the YMCA and my kids borrow in particular was sitting in the pool doing a lesson and she's gone. That's my mom's song. And so I hear this this big, like all the water aerobics ladies started clapping me from the other side of the pool and then my daughter is gone. That's my mom's music. So I think she suddenly realized that it wasn't such an uncool thing to be like to write music and to actually have people listen to it. I think she finally realized that it was actually something that people enjoyed and that they appreciated. Even if she didn't Yeah, they often sing my stuff which is nice to hear to also realize that other people value what you're doing exactly yeah, that is the big that was the big moment but it was it was quite a special moment for me because I not only was it really quite surprising and confusing for me to have it not playing in my headphones and playing beside me. Yeah, to have just audiences from all like, in so many different ways in that moment. It was really nice. Quite a weird experience but yeah, that's the lesson story yeah I talk to all my guests about mom guilt and I put it in a quote. What how do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have have actually had a lot of flack over the years for I think I got I got told at One point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment. I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, we have to play small. Because otherwise we step on too many people's toes. And for me to sort of, and I really, it really graded with me, particularly that one, I think there was this idea that I was I was too old, or I was too, too aggressive, or I was too Ultra focused, and I needed to be sort of more. I needed to be more flexible on some things, which I actually didn't think I needed to be more flexible on because they were my standards. So I've had a lot of flack from that along the way. But I, as far as with parenting guilt and mum guilt. I think I've been amazingly lucky in that my husband not only understands music, so he had, he was a bit of a rock star before I met him. So he had been in bands for years. He plays everything. So he plays drums, bass guitar, sings writes music, and he reckons he can't play piano, but he can. He just doesn't play it as well as me. And so he considers that an abject failure because he's super competitive. But yeah, he I'm lucky that the two of us both being musicians value that highly so he could see the value in what I was doing. And I think I was kind of lucky that I could lord it over him a little bit in the beginning, because he, he had his Rockstar years when I first met him. And so that consisted of band practice two or three times a week, for hours, like come home at two in the morning. It was a bit of a boys club. They're great guys, but it was very much I was The Good Wife that just sort of let played second fiddle really to it. And I was pretty supportive, like I was I was very enthusiastic about his music, pushed his, but pushed him to really push himself with it was very supportive, most of the time of band prac. Because I had my own obsessions at the time I was writing to fitness and running and everything. So I just instead of playing music, I threw myself into that. Then we had babies. And of course I was the only way that I could really sort of have any time was with him musically, was to write softer, more folky sort of stuff that was just the two of us. So we, he, he was very present with all of that, although we we nearly ended up divorced a few times with writing music, because he's got very different writing style. To me, he's incredibly it's a, it's a good thing that we have those differences. But it took us probably about 10 years to work through it. He is very critical of everything that he does, to the point where he'll refine and refine and refine, whereas he can play a couple of notes to me, and I just see endless possibilities. And I roll with with my creative vision on it. And then he'll stop and start and go back and change. And it just pulls the rug. For me it feels like it pulls the rug out from under my feet when writing, but it's because he he doesn't have the same way of visualizing. And it was incredibly deflating to me over and over and over again, it was my fault because I didn't what was kind of that was anyone's fault. It was just a mismatch in how we wrote music together. And then when I started writing my own music, all of a sudden, we had this freedom where he would criticize what I wrote in a good way and I'll critique it, I should say, not criticize it. And I would take it on board and I would refine what I was writing and everything because it was my vision that I was working with. And because every now and then I would tell him to go shove is critiquing. And I didn't sort of compromise my what my vision for the song was. It took all the ego out of all the previous discussions and we're just suddenly like, I just I don't know, it was amazing. So he's very lucky that he's very supportive of my writing. He's not afraid to tell me if he thinks something should be made better, which is great, because a lot of my stuff on Lux is hugely involving of him. We've he's been very critical in a good way of what I've done. And then regarding the mum guilt thing. Occasionally he will be critical of how much time I have spent focusing on music instead of a family. But yeah, he's he's pretty good. With all of it. I think most of the time the criticism comes from other family members or other museums, really, that sort of don't handle my day directness, I think in my singularity of focus, which I think it is a bad thing sometimes, I think, my blinkers on with my family for a while, it definitely couldn't have endured forever. But I think I've been very lucky that I've been allowed to have a season where my dad just let me ride the creative. Talking about how you caught flack from people that had your style, I suppose. And your decisions, when you got that feedback? Does that drive you and make you? Yeah, yeah. So one of my songs on my debut album, ombre anima is entirely written because of that. It's called empty room. And I think it was, it was written in direct response to two people, I'm not going to name them because I don't think it's very nice of me. But basically, a big fu to some people that had criticize the way that I taught my performing art students, people that criticize the way that I was so uncompromising on certain things. And they, they actually saw that as a real character flaw rather than a positive thing as far as being disciplined and staying the course towards what you actually were trying to achieve. I think there are dreams where it does become a bad thing. But I don't think like I look at what I've achieved with, with, with my performing art students, and also with my music for such a, like, I've never had a grant paid to me, I've never had any sort of funding support from a label or anything like that. And I've still produced four albums, and been nominated for awards and won some awards and that sort of thing. So I think, I think considering all of that, I think I've done what I needed to do to do that. And I don't think that I've lost anything along the way, despite obviously upsetting a few people here and there that felt a bit threatened by it. Yeah, so that song that definitely inspires me to write, I wrote empty room about that, I think, would have lyrics to that song, there's little things I do, giving up of me, just to prove to you that there's somehow sunlight breaking through. So in other words, that whole verse is about me trying to prove to someone that I was a nice person inside. And giving up on what I actually wanted to do and needed to do in order just to prove to them that I was a nice person. And I just went nuts, I'm actually done with that, like, it feels like I'm living in a cage, screw all of you, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do what I need to do. And it took me I actually needed to work through it, it took probably a couple of days of being really, really like almost on the point of breakdown, I think I was really low from it, because I really felt like it was a I took it, I took it on board too much at first, and I believed them. At first I didn't instead of actually going hang on a minute, what's your motivation for having a crack at me? Instead of doing that I actually took on board what they said way too much. And then I think I think I just came to the realization that those people aren't my people. They don't get it. They don't support drive and ambition and the pursuit of making something the best that it can possibly be. And they don't take feedback very well either. Interestingly, so yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that that was where that comes from that Yeah, certainly I have been inspired by that. That's what I need. Maybe I need someone to help me and then I've run another. The other big thing that I like to explore is entity so and I'll put in air quotes again being more than just a mom, you're still listening. You're still musician. Louisa, you you have children, but you You're really strong on on maintaining your own see outside of being a mother? Yeah, definitely. I think that comes through in the themes of what I write as well, I. Yeah, my, a lot of what I've written is sort of autobiographical. Which is not to say that it's all about falling in love and having your heart broken, and that sort of thing, which is fine. Like those are, those are significant moments for a lot of people. And there's a reason why those sorts of songs resonate with so many people. But my music is often inspired by either just what I'm going through in the moment. So an example of that would be vinyl scratch on my album lacks where I was mucking around with some jazz stuff. And was really interested in just making a song entirely composed of jazz chords. And so I started mucking around with that, and I had a flashback of, because we're in lockdown, and we couldn't go anywhere. And it just sort of seemed like time was just dissolving in front of us. I wrote, I wrote about how music was timeless in that respect, like when you listen to music, you stop worrying about how long the song goes for or, or what you've what you've got going on. And so that was what vinyl scratch was about. So it's not necessarily a theme of, of a tragedy or whatever. But by contrast, as well, there's another song that I wrote, wrote on Lux, which was probably the biggest song I've ever written, maybe that's the reason why I'm not writing a lot now. It's called umbilicus. And that was probably the most autobiographical song I've ever done. It was about the death of my own mother. But in a way, the lead up to her death, as well. She had she had brain cancer. And so she was quite, quite ill for years prior to dying. And it was a very confusing time for me and my sister as teenagers trying to navigate being told that it was just us and it was just our attitude problems. And it was just, you know, what the reason we were finding life so hard was because we were teenagers. And it wasn't because we had someone who was mentally unstable, and entirely unpredictable and quite a difficult person to be around. It wasn't anything to do with that, like the outside world couldn't really didn't know a lot of what was going on. And so yeah, that was it's quite a painful song. It's called umbilicus. And so it's really about that connection between babies and mothers. And I think it's taken, it's taken me I'm 39 now it's a it took me 38 years to really be able to articulate what, what happened. Because it's not just about mom dying when I was 20. It's also to do with my identity because my my own biological father died when I was five weeks old. And so my whole life I've had questions. I found out about that when I was 11. And it kind of just erased 11 years of childhood identity for me when I found out my stepdad is an amazing man. And he was a great dad to me. He's a great dad to me still, but it was my identity that really just took a massive hit. When I learned I learned to have that And then of course mum, in the years after that was very confusing to be around. Yeah, so I think having children of my own in particular has informed a lot will have what happened with mum has informed a lot of the way that I parent with my kids, I'm unfortunately very much like my own mother. In a in a lot of firm ways with my kids I hear I hear her voice coming out of me when I tell them off with various things. And I think I have much less of a sense of humor these days, which is very much like my mum, I think she would just would have been so bloody tired. That that's where that lack of sense of humor comes along. Like my husband plays a lot better with my children than I do. Which I look at and I go, yep, that's my mum, to a tee. But yeah, that a lot of the negative things I went through with mum definitely inform the way that I parent, my kids, I've sort of don't ever want my kids to feel confused about who they are and who I am and, and what, what I really think I think my mum often toed the conservative line a lot of the time, just because that was what the neighbors would want her to do. And I don't think I'm like that at all. So those those little retaliations against, against what I've been through, I guess, coming out, and umbilicus is is a lot about, about that I sort of felt like there was a large level of deception going on, not because Mum was a liar. But because cancer and brain cancer turned her into someone that she wasn't. And she did lie when she was really ill, she would make up things and then remember things differently to how they actually happened and all sorts of really confusing stuff. And then try and tell you that you were wrong, because you're only 15? And don't answer back and that sort of thing. So it was it was a really, it was it was probably the most difficult thing that I've been through. And that comes out in that song. Do you children come out in new songs as well. That'd be quite a confronting thing to have to think about. Actually, I don't know that they do a lot. Yeah. Probably because my kids are a huge source of joy. For me. And they are, they are a joint project, I guess as well between me and my husband. And music for me is quite a selfish pursuit. So maybe I don't write them into my songs. For that reason. I certainly dedicate all the albums to them, because they have to listen to them in the car, when we're driving them to school. As I'm, as I'm writing albums, I have to listen to them over and over and over again, then they've certainly been exposed to them a lot that way. But yeah, I don't think I don't think I so much write my children into my songs. But I I am the person that I am. As the as a songwriter and an author lyrically, particularly in response to my to who I am as a mum and who my kids are. There's, there's a song I wrote called Boy Who Cried Wolf, which is quite a partly a political song. And it was written as part of the me to movement, when all these women were suddenly coming out and saying that they had been sexually assaulted or oppressed or prejudiced against because of not putting out or they've just been subjected to sexual abuse in their careers. And had we're now speaking up and I wrote that song, partly as being inspired by that movement, but also also probably as a as what I hope for my daughter, as well. I probably doesn't come across that personally in the song, but it's certainly like, I hope that my daughter never actually apologizes for who she is, and never never just submits because of who someone else is. I don't Yeah, I don't know if it comes across that personally in the song but yeah, but certainly I am I had hair in my mind when I was writing a lot of the time Jesus see graphs I'd love to write more, more jazz pieces I've been listening to. I'm sort of in that in that calm behind the wave of creativity at the moment where I'm listening to other people's music a lot. And vocally, I think there are some areas where I still need to build a bit of strength in my voice, which Yeah, I've been I've been pushing it certainly singing, singing different techniques and different types of music. So I'm really kind of focusing on all of that. So there might be some more cover. Cover work done, I think, if I can, if I can ever play again. But yeah, that maybe, maybe some more, I'll pop style music. I think I've been listening to a lot of Hayley Williams lately, just because she's got such an epic voice and trying to improve a bit of brightness at the top end of my voice, just listening to her and singing along with her stuff. And my husband has been very accommodating and playing a few few of her songs acoustically. So we've been wiling away a bit of the time, musically that way. I haven't hopped on the piano for a few weeks now, other than to play some classical stuff. I've just wanting to focus a bit on my tech, my technique. So I've been playing a bit of Mozart and a bit of yeah, there's some classical stuff. Just to try and get my speed up again. Is my fingers are actually for a pianist. I've got quite arthritic fingers. But yeah, it's alright. We'll improve again with a bit of practice. It's so lovely to see you. Thank you, sir. Likewise, I appreciate it. Thank you, given my kids an hour break from home school, which is nice as well. So yeah, they need it. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet

Dr Melanie Cooper Australian mixed media visual artist + art historian S1 Ep07 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Melanie Cooper is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide South Australia, and a mother of 2. Melanie combines painting + drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet, stitching and rug making techniques. In this episode we chat a lot about art, as Melanie’s expertise in the long 18th Century allows us to delve into the role and treatment of women artists during this era. We also discuss the importance of sharing our experiences as mothers, and the role of judgment in our current society – and how it got there. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression** Melanie website See the Queen Victoria yarn bomb here Shop art supplies that Melanie uses here Podcast instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Dr. Melanie Cooper. Melanie is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide, South Australia, and a mother of two. Melanie combines painting and drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet stitching and rug making techniques in her art. In this episode, we chat a lot about art history as Melanie's expertise in the long 18th century, allows us to delve into the role and treatment of artistic women during this era. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression. Thank you for coming on, it's an absolute pleasure to have you. And I'm excited about the different sorts of things that you might be able to share as your role as an art historian, but you're also a visual artist. So let's start with that. Why don't you tell us about your own art practice? My art practice is pretty diverse. I as with my other work as well, I kind of consider myself to be an interdisciplinary artist. So I'm primarily a painter. But I also work across textiles and drawing and, you know, just a lot of a lot of different things I've been making. For as long as I can remember, like, even as a child I was, I've always been making stuff. My work is very personal to me it's very, it's, I guess it's a way for me to articulate things that I find very difficult to communicate verbally or in written language. I'm just kind of really interested in my, I mean, of course, my own experience, but also the spaces in between thoughts and ideas and experience and memory, like, you know, the things that we can't see, I try really hard to not just document experience, and those kinds of things, but also to kind of try and make my own thoughts and feelings visible in some form. So it's kind of it's a way for me to reconcile a whole heap of thinking and a whole heap of experience, but in a way that's really tangible. And so in a lot of ways, it's all about the process. For me, the end, the end point is always a great thing, because people can actually see it, but it's kind of it feels like it's work that's never finished, because I need to keep going. And it's almost ritualistic in a way, I guess, because I'm kind of quite often repeating myself, like, for example, in textiles, I'm using lots of the same sort of stitches. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking and kind of integrating all of those ideas and thoughts and memories and, you know, and, and responses to place as well, I just kind of draw lots of connections from the outside world and sort of it kind of comes in, and then I sort of spit it back out into some sort of form. I don't I don't really, it's a really, really hard thing to explain. Like, it's just it makes sense to me anyway. And hopefully, when people when people will look at it, hopefully they kind of, you know, bring their own ideas to it as well their own responses, and there's no right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to deliver a precise message. You know, people don't have to have a perfect takeaway from it, as long as they kind of, you know, respond to it in some way. I'm happy. So. And that is the great thing about I think, too, in any of its forms that people will take what they need from I suppose in their own interpretation of what, what they're in their life or what they're going through or anything like that. So you're working with textiles, Melanie, what kind of materials are you working with? So with the with my textiles, this is a little bit confusing for people sometimes I consider that to be part of my painting practice. So I work with textiles in the same way that I mean, I know it's a different material. But the way that I you approach that practice is the same way that I approach my painting with the same ideas and the same motivations and the same kinds of thinking. But I use knitting and crochet. And I also use traditional rug making techniques and just a little bit of stitching as well, but predominantly things like punching, which is punching through a hashing surface with a needle and knitting and crocheting pieces of fabric that I sort of manipulate and stitch down and explore with that kind of material material. Process is a really good way For me to sort of like think through a whole heap of stuff, and I kind of figure it out as I go, I'm very intuitive, I don't really sort of sit down and draw up a plan or anything, I kind of work it out as I go. And product, of course, it's always really important, you know, you, you do want people to engage with something that you're really proud of. And it needs to be aesthetically appealing in some way. Whether whether that's a really positive thing, or you know, something that's a bit more challenging for people, that's cool. But it really is, like, the the, for me the whole, it's the process, you know, it's the end product is really, really important, of course, but the process? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know that I would do it. If it wasn't for the process, you know, me like, I'm not just making stuff to decorate things. We thought we've got enough decoration. It's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's something that I still need to think about putting into words, because I find it really, really difficult. Yeah, it's kind of the process of experimentation and exploring, and just finding, finding out how far you can push something is really fun and really interesting as well. Yes, I like new techniques and, and working with things in different ways. And that sort of Absolutely. Tell me about your children. So I'm very fortunate to have a son who's almost 18, and a daughter, who is almost 11. So they're quite far apart in age. But they're just incredible. Little humans, you know, with very different different needs at the moment. They're both still at school, obviously. And, you know, they're both doing their own thing. And, you know, I'm, yeah, they're both. They're both very strong personalities. And of course, that comes with its own challenges sometimes, but I'm actually really proud of the relationship that I have with them. Both. Were really good mates. So I think, yeah, I love my children very dearly as all mothers do, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You say this look seven years between your toy? I've got seven years between my two. Yeah. Some people think, wow, that's huge. And in some ways it is. But in some ways, it's not. Either. It's a funny thing is, Oh, yeah. And it's, I think, I'll be interested to see how they grow as they get older, because my oldest is 12, or 13. And my little ones about to turn six. So at the moment, they have times when they absolutely cannot stand each other. But I think as they get older, and dig becomes out of that little little person stage. They might, I mean, they get on great, don't get me wrong, but things might not be quite as explosive. Do you know, honestly, things can be quite explosive with my kids. And like, that's why I say, you know, they're both very strong personalities. They're both, they're both very, very clever. And they know how to test each other. And they do they, they do get explosive. But the funny thing is as intense as that is, sometimes they also have this really intense love for each other. It's and it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll just walk into a room and I'm like, oh my god, you guys are having a hug right now. What's going on? Is everything okay? Yes, fine. Mom is totally fine. You're sure? Yeah. And it's also because I think they're very different places in their own development. Like they have very, very different needs. Like, you know, Seth, my son, he, at the moment, he just really needs his own space. Sometimes he needs his own privacy and all those sorts of things. Like he's merely an adult. And his little sister likes to kind of walk into his room unannounced and jeans and he's just like, oh, my god, get out. And you know, he's never like, he's just playing a game or something. It's not anything major, but he's just like, leave me alone. And she Yeah, of course, you know, sometimes she just wants to be around her big brother. But and he does it to her too, though. Sometimes she'll be quiet. You know, she'll be sitting on the couch or in her room doing her own thing. And he'll come in and he'll be like, all over and, you know, just in the mood for a joke. And she's like, Oh, no. Yeah, and it all kind of kicks off and I have to Yeah, yeah. It's also really lovely though, when you find them playing, like, you know, when they they take their own initiative to get the ball guy outside and kick her around the backyard together, that kind of stuffs really lovely. Yes. Something good is here. So you said before you've been creating you pretty much your whole life. Has that sort of changed then as you had your children as they came into Your Life, we starting to find that challenge the balance between you and your role as a mother. In different times of my life, definitely. So I can't, I mean, there's a few different things I could say about this sort of stuff. Like, you know, before having kids, I really believed that I needed one full solid day to get something done, you know, I always had this kind of idea that you had to have a full day. And if you didn't have that full day, nine to five kind of idea, whatever those hours were, it really like there's no point. But I've since learned, especially with my second, with Scarlett half an hour, you can actually achieve so much in half an hour. Because sometimes that's all you get. And I mean, it kind of fluctuates, or depending on what's going on with them and where you are, in state, like the stage of their life and stuff. There's been times where I found it incredibly difficult. Like, with my painting practice, for example, I like when I had my son, Seth, I found that really difficult to get back into for a while because I had quite bad postnatal depression. So that kind of was a bit of a block for me for a while. But then after a period of time, I kind of learned when I was sort of working through that I was drawing and things but I kind of went back to knitting, which is something that I've kind of always been doing since I was like about five, but then I sort of realized, you know, this is a really portable medium, and I can just pick it up and put it down, I don't have to go out and studio. So I think that's where it kind of really started becoming this thing that I've incorporated into my practice. And over time, I kind of just kept pushing it more and developing it more. And that's so that's always been there. Like I'm always, you know, carrying around knitting or crochet because it is so portable, and I can't sit on the couch and not do things. So if I have to sit on the couch and nurse a baby or rock a baby to sleep, you know. So like there's, it's there's different ways that you can still be creative, without having to go out into the studio without having to have an entire day. And, you know, try and figure out all the other logistics around that. So I've just, I think I've always sort of looked for ways that I can still fit stuff in. And, you know, like, when they're not sleeping and stuff, that's really good thinking time. So you can use that time in the middle of the night to kind of think about what do I need to do tomorrow, and you start planning and organizing your thoughts. So that when you do have that time, you can just jump straight in, he's not kind of lost, not knowing where to go, what direction to take, or what needs to be done, you can just sort of like jump in and be productive. And I think that's that kind of motivates you and gives you the energy to keep going as well. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that mother who doesn't like I don't want to say adversity, but you know, just the challenges sometimes that you face and the things that you kind of find yourself up against, that you weren't prepared for. I think that's really taught me that yeah, actually, I'm really good at improvising. And, and that's really fun in itself too. Because sometimes you kind of you end up with outcomes you couldn't predict or better outcomes than if you planned and organized everything completely perfectly and down to the last minute. Like, sometimes you just kind of go, you know, do things by the seat of your pants, and you get up the other side of you think, wow, that's actually really great. And that could lead to something else. You know, like, never in a million years would I like when I was painting in art school, I didn't think that I would be you know, knitting in my actual painting practice. I kind of thought that's the thing that I do when I watch TV. And you know, it's not really part of my, my serious art career. But now it definitely is. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun. I think you've learned so much from being a mom. Yeah. And having to having to restructure your own thinking and just make things happen. You know, not just sit around waiting for the time, but actually just making that time you have to, otherwise it will never happen. Yeah, the thing for me as well, like, it's almost like a it's a compulsion for me to make like, it always has been even as a kid like, I just always have to make something and it doesn't always have to be like a big finished painting. Sometimes it is just, you know, something with a lump of air dry clay or, you know, a drawing in the mud out in the backyard or something like, I've just always had to do something. And yeah, it's a it's a compulsion, I think. But it's also I was thinking about this the other day, I think it's also about making a space for yourself, like making art or even just making and staff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself, even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important, as an adult, when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time or it becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an adult. Absolutely. It's like, mental health, you know, and it's, and it's so connected with looking Yeah, looking after yourself. And so, for me, it's very much part of my identity. I think, like, it's, it's not like, the job, the great job that I've got that I go to, and I'll retire from one day, so something that I think is always has always been a part of who I am. Definitely isn't. Yeah, it's one day, you just get to hang it up and go, right i that's finished now. I'm retired. What do I do? Exactly? Exactly. Yes. It's, sometimes it would be nice to sort of like bundle it up and pack it away. But it's no, that's not an option. I don't think. Wanted to ask you just you talked about your painting, how you never thought that your meeting would become part of you the way I think you said you serious art practice? How did how did it become part? Did you one day just decide to combine it like how did it physically happen? Um, it's a very, it's a very good question. So when I was in art school, I, I realized that I detested oil painting, and I. And so I couldn't do live painting anymore. And I wasn't really interested in that anyway. And so I dropped out of that subject. And I had to do another elective and sort of make that as like a, not just an elective subject, but like a major subject, and it was rug making. And I was like, Wow, this sounds really cool. And it's using wool. Awesome, I'll do that. So I learned some techniques. And, you know, just kind of played with that for a bit and then put it away. And when I thought, I just kind of, I kind of just stuffed around with it a bit and picked it up, put it down, and just put it played with those ideas for a while. And I kind of experimented without really taking it very seriously. And then, you know, fast forward a couple of years, I became a member of a studio here in Adelaide called voting booth studios. And I shared that space with several other artists. And at the time, I think there was 12 artists, but I had brought all my things from my old studio into the space and was unpacking stuff and messing around with things and just having a look at what I had. And one of the things that I had was a half finished, rogue or wallhanging, I wasn't really sure what to call it at the time. I pulled it out as looking at it. And one of my friends looked at it and said, Oh, what's this, and I was just this thing that I've just been playing with. And he's kind of like, oh, that's, that's kind of really cool. Maybe you should think about finishing it. I was really, okay. And, you know, I just wasn't at that time, I just wasn't really sure what I was doing. Because, you know, a whole heap of other stuff had just happened. And I was coming through a difficult place. But I just kind of thought, you know, this is an easy thing to pick up and just go on with, I'll maybe I'll figure out what I'm doing next. So I just kind of kept working on this thing. And then it became a finished piece. And I was like, wow. And there was just this one little engineer alpha, I don't really know what to do on this end bit. And I was mucking around with some knitting at home. And I just kind of something told me or compelled me to put that piece of knitted fabric onto the rug, and just see what it looks like. And so I was just like, wow, this is another way of combining surfaces and textures and different techniques, and actually really kind of like what's happening. And so that's what I started doing there. I sort of started messing around with it. And I was really excited by what I had discovered. And so I just kind of thought, what can I do next. And so I started making lengths of knitted fabric and started stuffing about with it in the next pieces and just kind of exploded from there. And I kind of realized, well, I can actually use knitting in the same way that I do. You know, brush strokes and different ways of applying paint, I can actually just make the paint and manipulate it and stitch it down or do something with it. And yeah, the more I do it, the more I do the more ideas or come up with and sometimes my head is just like swimming with ideas. I get really anxious because I don't know if I'm gonna get time to do it all because, you know, that's the exciting thing about knitting, sewing, and especially crochet too. It's only a couple of stitches. But the different ways that you can combine those stitches with different materials and different ways of like different combinations, you end up with so many different kinds of results. So it's exciting. And yeah, it just kind of it just kind of unraveled. And, like a very natural process. It just kind of kept expanding. From there. Yeah, really, that's really awesome story. And I think that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm really grateful for being in that studio at that time. Because, you know, if it hadn't have been for someone walking past and looking at and going, yeah, that's pretty cool. Maybe you should see what happens if you finish it. Like just that little bit of encouragement from a friend, it was like, Yeah, okay, maybe this is worth thinking about. And, you know, the same friend was really amazing, too. I credit him with encouraging me when I had my exhibition, my first solo after that, will not my first solo but my first solo for a number of years, he sort of said to me, you know, the back is the back of that piece is really cool. Maybe you should think about hanging it so people can see the back as well. And that's, that was another really important part of developing my practice as well. He sounds like a pretty useful bloke to have around. I think, yeah, he's he's very generous person. And I think that's also one of the virtues and one of the great advantages of being in a studio with other people working around you. Because sometimes, you can give each other that sort of feedback, or, you know, just the comment of someone walking past is enough to make you think twice about, yeah, actually, maybe I won't throw that in the bin, you know, maybe that is worth spending some more time on. And that's been that's been incredibly valuable to me. So I'm very, I'll always be grateful for that. So you've done also yarn bombing, create, whatever, you're gonna make your knitting or crocheting, and then you go and put it out on structures in the town, or in the city? Yes, yes, I have. And I've had a lot of fun doing that, with a group of friends. We haven't done anything for a while, that tried to make something happen just after COVID. But it kind of fell through. That's a whole other story. But yeah, that's something that I got an enormous kick out of, I have to say, because it's different. It's a bit different now. But originally, the idea was, you make something and you attach it to a public structure somewhere, but you have to do it without being caught and without anyone seeing you because it's kind of illegal. So it's kind of like, yeah, hardcore ladies hit the town. You know, so much fun. The first time the first tag I ever did was just like, this crochet length of bright blue fabric, kind of like a scarf. And I went down one of the alleyways, just for Rundle Street, and my heart was beating. So it's in the middle of the day, and I was like, whipped it on around this pole, stitching it as fast as I could. And my heart was beating so loud, it was roaring you might use skipped off down the street afterwards on such a high. It was just, it was just this simple little band of blue, but it was like yes, I have done this really cool. Outlaw thing. Yeah, that was enormously fun. And then after that, we're just, you know, I kind of need some bow ties, and I attach these bow ties on to, you know, sculptures of people's heads and stuff down North terrorists and things and in the Botanic Gardens. But the really the really cool thing was, many years ago, I can't remember exactly what year it was. But there was this sort of like a street art festival thing that was happening. A former student of mine, Peter Drew, who's now done lots of lots and lots of other things. He was organizing groups of people to paint and, you know, sort of decorate, mini skips. And so I can't I can't remember exactly where I found out about it. I think it might have been a Facebook page or something like that. There was an idea to cover it with knitting like the st. yarn bombing stuff. So I kind of just went on my own. I had no idea I didn't had I didn't know anyone who was going to this thing. I just happened to meet this bunch of gorgeous women. Very different ages, very different backgrounds, and they're all just making these squares to cover this dumpster. It was so much fun and we just got along so well and so we kind of over a period of time. found ourselves in a group that we decided to call a play on the sly. It was enormous fun. We've done so many projects we did. You know, there was a festival coId called, boy you street art festival. There was a whole exhibition in the Festival Theatre. There are a couple of bank sees and other bits and pieces in there and we were asked to cover, I think are called the Mellie tree poles outside. That's like an installation. I'm not sure if it's still there. But we covered these big long poles with, you know, different lengths of fabric and attached insects and flowers and stuff to it. That was so much fun. But one of my favorite projects was a nano nano reckless Julie Collins and I went made a dress for the statue of Queen Victoria. And we had it installed by the Adelaide City Council at like, two o'clock in the morning. They had, they had cherry pickers and council workers attaching this big knitted dress with cable ties to the statue of Queen Victoria. And it was it was so much fun. And it was part like it was around Christmas time. So it was when the whole square was decorated with different things. And just going along, to see that in the middle of the day. And seeing all these people walking past it stopping looking and taking photos of this thing that you'd made. It was just so much fun, because, you know, you're just sort of like sitting there watching everybody else getting so much joy out of this thing that we just did. Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that. We've done stuff for Matthew Flinders and Douglas Mawson, one of my friends met him at balaclava. We've done things for the Robert Burns statue at the front of the State Library. Yeah, things like that. There's been lots of stuff that the group has done, and it's just been wonderful. Yes, we haven't doing that. We're still within the group doing stuff now. Um, well, we were going to do a project for Christmas last year, back in November. And I didn't know how to say in a short way, because I don't want to sort of I don't want to sound negative. But we were asked to do a project. And then the street that we were asked to do it on. People on the the people in the street like the business owners decided no, we don't want that. And that was really, that was really sad. And I found that really upsetting because for some of the people in the group that hadn't actually been able to work on anything, as a group or for themselves for a long time, there was a one mom in there, I know that she was, you know, it was really important to her to get together and to do this thing, because she hadn't done anything for herself for a really long time. And so all of a sudden, we had this thing that was really exciting. And we were we were so excited about getting back together and doing something and it was just taken away because of mismanagement and miscommunication. You know, like the person who was organizing the thing and had asked us to do it hadn't spoken to the business owners properly. So all of a sudden, she just sort of like sent me an email one day and said, You know what, sorry, they just don't want you here anymore. And it was devastating. Actually. It was really, it was really sad. Like, I was fine with it, because I had my own stuff to go with. But as I was saying some of some of the group members hadn't hadn't been doing their own thing for a long time. And it was very important to them that we were doing it. And yeah, all of a sudden, it just wasn't there. So yeah, we do we need to get back together and do something because I think, you know, we just had so much fun together. There's no reason that we haven't done anything for a while. I think it's just like the whole COVID thing and people being busy and life getting in the way. So I think yeah, we just we just need to do it. We just, we just really need to Yeah, you know, put a date in the diary and get together and do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much fun. And we do we all work together so well. We just have very different lives in very different directions. And I think that's that's the only thing that kind of makes it a bit tricky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking about when you put your pieces up, and then you see people their reaction to that. I get so much joy and I it almost it always makes me feel like a little child even reminds me of like Easter time when when I was a kid and you'd be looking for your Easter eggs and you find them hidden in the garden and that amazing feeling of finding things. That's how I feel when I see people's creations all around the place. I just love it. It's such a beautiful I love it too, because you, I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, it is that generosity and that sharing and the joy. But it's also like, it kind of feels a little bit naughty or a little bit not naughty, but like a little bit. You know, people, people being creative outside of the prescribed conventional spaces of institutions and galleries and high end things, it's kind of making things accessible. And it's also like the random accidental thing of finding stuff as well as it's kind of, you know, I'm gonna make this thing and I'm going to put it out there because I can, I'm not going to ask anybody's permission to do it, not going to apply to do it. I'm just going to do it. And I love I love that. It's so it's so much fun. And it's, you know, of course, it's always with the best intentions, but it's also a little bit, you know, it's very empowering actually think it's really empowering. I know it is for me. Yeah, I think it's incredibly generous to because you're not, you're not creating it with any sort of expectation of, I mean, you aren't getting something back. But like, you know, it's not a monetary gain, you're doing it because you love it. And because you know, you're going to bring joy to paper, I think that's just beautiful. I wanted to utilize your expertise as an art historian throughout this discussion, could you just let us know first what the era or the period that you are really drawn to with your art history. So my area of expertise is the 18th century. So that's, that's what I know most, the deepest part of my knowledge and research has always has been the 18th century. Insane. I'm really fascinated and have a really solid understanding of the 20th century as well, because I've studied that in depth too. But also, of course, I'm interested in contemporary art, art of the art that is being made now and the very recent past to and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think researchers, like artists, they develop their interests and their ideas in lots of different directions at the moment and kind of looking more things like iconoclasm as well, which kind of stretches across all periods really iconoclasm for for those who don't know, is the destruction or accidental or intentional of artworks, or buildings and monuments and things like that, too. Yeah. So what drew you to that? It's the 1700s, isn't it? If it's the 18th century, so how it works? Yeah. No, that's cool. And to make things even more confusing, people have different definitions around time periods as well, that so for, for the 18th century, we used to say, oh, you know, that's 1700 to 1800. But the truth is, most people now call it like, referred to that period as the long 18th century. So it's sort of like, T straddles the late 70s, sort of like 1685 1690, through to about 1820. And people kind of debate those precise use, but it does kind of overlap, centuries, either side is 70. Is that because of the work? Was it was the era of that art in that time? Or is that just how historians talk about time periods? It's more around world events and things like that as well. It's not it's not a facade. I mean, the hard thing with art history, whatever period you're looking at, it's, we kind of like to think in nice sort of compartmentalized boxes with nice start and finish points. But the truth is, is that things just overlap. And, and there's not like one linear narrative or style or thing that's happening. There's lots of different things that are happening all at the same time. And we're only really starting to do a better job at recognizing that now. There's multiple histories, and multiple styles and things happening all at the same time. So really history. It's not like this one linear thing. It's like a big spiderweb of, you know, and it's really messy. And that's, that's the thing that makes it really interesting and dynamic, but we're not very good at thinking about things that way. We insist on putting things in nice, neat little categories and everything has to have a neat timeframe. Like it can't be like 1521 to 1673 because that just doesn't feel neat and contained for us. We have this need to contain things, which is crazy because that's not how time Her explore life. I must point out and acknowledge though that that's a very Western way of thinking, like, I'm sure like, I don't have the understanding to talk about this at length, but you know, other cultures and other strange other philosophies or other systems of doing things, think about things in very different ways. So what I'm referring to is, it's a Western perspective. It's not, it doesn't account for everybody, for sure. So within that time period, that long 18th century, what, what drew you to that era, I suppose, like how, why, why that period for you? This goes back to art school. My practice is very, very different to the 18th century, I my my own art practice is radically different. But the reason I was drawn to that is because when we went to when I was in art school, we had to do art history and theory. And we had this lecture in first year, who was very handsome and very charismatic. And everybody hung on every word, he said. And so we went to every lecture thinking, these lectures are amazing, and they're brilliant. And I was one of the fans. I thought he was wonderful. But there was one subject that he did. And it was kind of, I think it was called, like the history of Western art, or something like this. And he started with the caves of Lascaux. And he kind of worked his way through lecture, lecture, the lecture going through the history of Western art. And I remember this one day, he, I can't remember the name of the lecture, but he did the 18th century in one slide. Like I just like, I just have to pause there, because it still blows my mind. It totally blew me away, like, you'd gone. You know, one lecture might have been on surrealism and data, like an entire one hour lecture on surrealism and data, which is a movement in 19, the 1920s, like, you know, a response to the wars and things quite, it's quite a complex movement. But the 18th century, he kind of did this thing where he put up an image by a painter called fraggin, ah, he did a painting called the swing, a put this, this slide up, and I was fresh out of arts, I mean, fresh out of high school, too. So I was very young, I really didn't know very much. And he just put this slide up, and everyone erupted into laughter. And he said, this is like, the 18th century chocolate box fluff and nonsense. That's it. See later, let's jump into the 19th century. And I was just kind of like, I remember sitting there thinking, Why does everybody think this is funny? And why does he just wipe out an entire century with one slide, like, to me, I was like, I had no interest in painting that way, I had no interest in that style from my own work at all. But looking at that painting, I thought, wow, this is actually really, really skilled work. It's really complex. There's all these things happening in that picture. I don't understand what it is. But there's a lot more to this thing. I was just intrigued, absolutely intrigued. And then, you know, I also saw films like Amadeus, and, you know, all the all the period movies and stuff, and I just kind of developed this love for, you know, the 18th and 19th centuries. And then, when I went to study art history, I did four subjects and kept going and, you know, the my love for the 18th century grew. And I was kind of when I came to do my masters. I was like, do I do my Masters on Australian abstraction? Or do I do it on the 18th century, and then I went 18th century because I feel like I know and understand a lot about abstraction, but don't really understand the 18th century enough. So that's what took me that way. And I think it's also because images of that period of very complex nerve, very rich and iconography, which is, you know, the study of signs and symbols to kind of untangle what a pitcher is telling us. And I think that kind of tapped into my love for detective novels, and Agatha Christie and solving the clues. So I think that's what drew me in the most was just, you know, again, fun, lots of fun. And, you know, that period is fascinating, because, so, so much is happening in a very, very short timeframe. When you think about it, so much stuff for life is radically changing. And we've, we've inherited so much of that, you know, bad things as well as good things in within that period of time. There were lots of different movements, or was it the same? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll just very, very quickly tell you that the difference between the 20th century In the age of the long, 18th century, the long 18th century is kind of broken up into three major styles you could argue maybe for. But the 20th century is a very rapid succession of multiple movements. So there's lots of movements all throughout the century, and some of those overlap as well. So, you know, I'd have to sit down and write them down and can't off the top of my head, but lots and lots of movements happening very quickly. So some movements might kind of, you know, be defined by a naysayer decade, but and they resurface and influence other artists as well. So there's lots of overlap. And there's just lots of stuff happening. The 18th century is a century that has been neglected in research and scholarship until up until about the last 10 or 20 years, you know, people just didn't take it very seriously. So there's still a little bit of debate and a little bit like there's a lot of work to be done still. The start of the period, some people refer to as late Baroque, but it's really the Rococo, which is that the very highly decorative style, and then the, from the Rococo, we move into neoclassicism, which is, you know, the more classical austere kind of painting where it's all about heroic virtue, and those kinds of things leading up to the revolution. And then, around the time, like after the revolution, you have a movement called romanticism, which kind of spills over into the 19th century. And that's where you have artists like Turner doing those beautiful images of shipwrecks and storms and things like that. So we're going back to nature and the the power of nature and the sublime and those kinds of things. So it's really like, three year three movements in one century, and they do overlap in some of those artists. So for example, some of the, the artists working the Rococo style, kind of they also, you know, depending on when they were born, and who they were working for, they do kind of creep into the other styles as well. So some of the new classical artists move into romanticism, some of them don't, some of the Rococo artists move into neoclassicism, it really depends on where they are. And I guess that that notion of things have to have a start and finish, it just doesn't work like that things are all overlapping. And, yeah. And it's really formed and shaped by what's happening in the political and social cultural context as well, like, you know, so the easy thing there is like the the revolution, the French Revolution had an enormous impact on artists. So you do see a lot of things happening in the artwork that, you know, as what an art historian does is we look at works that are made in different time periods, and try and understand them in the context that they were made in as well. And that helps us understand what people were concerned by what people were thinking and how lives were lived at that period. Art historians tend to specialize. Like, for example, I specialize in the 18th century, but also look at contemporary art. Also look at modern art, sometimes I look a little bit at the 17th from the 19th. But I couldn't tell you very much about the Byzantine period, for example, there's just so much stuff out there. Art historians, we don't memorize dates and titles of paintings and things because that's connoisseurship. What we do is we look at objects and images as primary sources of material that can tell us it's kind of it's like detective work, you know, historians look at letters and documents and things and to tell the story of a person or what's happening in a period of time. And that's what we're doing with objects and images, where, you know, we're talking about the history of the work and the artist itself, but we're also recognizing it, doesn't it? Nothing is made in a vacuum, like, you know, artists are working in all different kinds of circumstances and political climates. And it really does shape what's being made. And not just visual art, but music and literature as well. Yeah. I mean, I've given very, very short, brief overviews of things. I've felt I have simplified things a lot. But I think, like, for example, when I when I say, you know, that 18th century has been a period that hasn't been as loved up until now, it's very different now. But when I started doing my Masters, people were still dismissing the Rococo, which is like the earliest period of the 18th century, there was some really groundbreaking research happening and the art historian is really fighting for the for that area of the discipline to be taken seriously, and they've done amazing work since but I think, you know, art history, it's like any other discipline, I guess, you know, it is susceptible to fashion you know, sometimes it It's hard to, you know, study an Australian colonial art, you know, I don't know, like it does go through fashion. But I think the 18th century really was quite overlooked. I'm not sure about the other disciplines, but definitely in art history, it was overlooked and not taken very seriously for a long time. That's his, like you said there was so much happening at that time, there was so much going on, and so much changing. And then it's like, oh, we're not actually going to write it. You know what I mean? Well, I can, again, I'll give you a very short answer for that, um, things like neoclassicism and romanticism, which happens later in the century were studied and taken more seriously. Like I, you know, I, like I was saying I did sort of condense what I was saying, and I simplified it a lot. They were taken seriously, much more seriously, for a long time than the first part of the century, which is that period that I refer to, or everyone refers to as the Rococo. And that is, because when we look at and this is, this is why that slide that I mentioned, was laughed at. Because it is so pretty, it is so feminine, it is so over the top decorative, it's ostentatious, it's, you know, it's just the height of frivolous for some people. And, you know, people kind of look at that, and the thing Oh, that's so ridiculously chocolate box, which is exactly what the lecturer said, like, there's, it's all feminine, decorative nonsense, there's no substance to it. And in that period of time, you know, women were powerful patrons, and they were really helping to shape fashion. And so, you know, sadly, because there were so many women involved, it was denigrated as fluff and nonsense, and it's totally not, like, once you start researching and looking at those images properly, and like looking at the culture in the social context of the period, it was enormously sophisticated and very, very progressive. Um, but, you know, historic later historians, you know, sort of later, later, from the 19th century, in particular, kind of looked back on that time and said, Oh, it's, it's all just feminine. You know, let's look at the stuff that's much more serious. And, you know, much more interesting, because, you know, it's about war. You know, the forces of nature and exploration and things, which is, of course, fascinating. But that's, that's really why people didn't take the early period of the 18th century. Seriously, for a long time. Yeah, because it was too feminine. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, it's just about flowers and puppies, you know, but there's a lot there's so much more. That's hilarious. Yeah, and it's a very simplistic view, because, of course, they're really looking at, you know, paintings and fashion and things. But, you know, the Rococo, you have to look at what was happening in, you know, maths and architecture, like there is that period of the Rococo period, and that style, that movement informed mathematics. I don't understand how that is, but it does. I'm not a mathematician, but I have read that it informed architecture and garden design and, you know, philosophy. It's incredibly rich period, the artists were talking to, you know, writers and philosophers and musicians, they were all generating and exchanging ideas and these really amazing communities. Yeah, like you said, before the community having people together, and yeah, bouncing ideas off of each other. So we briefly briefly touched on the involvement of women in that era, during that time were women painting, or were they more, like you said, the patrons of that era. So this is really this is really, really interesting. So both in that period of time, you know, the, I'm trying to think of how to make this a short story, not a very long one. So, in that period of time, women, I've got to be careful how I say this, because I'm not saying women were completely liberated from, you know, systems of patriarchal oppression because they certainly weren't. But women with money and power became very influential patrons. So one patron in particular, I'll give you one example Madame de Pompadour or was the king's favorite. She was a woman from a middle class background, she worked her way up. And she became a very, very influential patron of the arts. And she was a very good friend to artists and philosophers, musicians, scientists, she was an intellectual woman. And she held her own salons. And she, yeah, she patronized, you know, she, she commissioned artists to, and not just visual artists, but all kinds of artists to make work for her. And so that kind of patronage was really, really important to artists, you know, in sustaining their careers and their incomes, but also in shaping the visual culture of the time as well. And so yes, women with money and power and privilege, were definitely heavily involved in shaping the visual culture. For artists, female artists, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. There were some really, and I'll use the word exceptional. And some some art historians do use that term, too. There were exceptional art, women artists who had the support to train in, you know, studios that have their brothers or their fathers, for example. And at that time, women weren't allowed to go into the academies, except for a couple of women that we call the exceptional women. So for example, Angelica Kauffman, and Elizabeth Vichy LeBron, were two examples of female artists who worked in like they entered, they were permitted entry into the French Academy. And they became very successful artists. And they worked for the crown. And for example, LeBron and Kaufman, they worked for the Queen's at the time as well, for Marie Antoinette. And so they were very good friends of very powerful people. But that was quite rare. It wasn't, it wasn't as common. It was, it was much. No, I think, I think the thing about being a woman artists at that time was, you know, you really needed to have the support of men around you, like you needed to, you know, have, especially early in your life, because you sort of started training, as a child, or as a very young adult, you really needed to have access to a studio. And that was really out of the reach for females, unless you had a brother or a father, you might have been helping them make their work in the studio and have access to materials, someone might look at what you were doing, and say that's really, that's really great, we're going to try and get you some teaching, they might go and work with another artist and you know, gain some more skills. But the process is much more difficult for a female to become a professional academic painter. There were also other artists who, and this is where it gets. Again, I don't I don't want to go on and on too much, because it's not an art history lesson. But there were other artists who worked in pastels, for example, they didn't do the traditional academic painting, they use pastels to make beautiful images of flowers and portraits and things. And some of those women were working very independent of the academy. And that's how they sort of sustained their practice. But they weren't considered professional in the same way that the members of the academy and the painters to the Crown were. So you had different groups, I guess the thing was, gaining entry into the academy was that you had to, you had to sort of like, do a whole heap of training and learning first, but then to enter into the academy, you had to paint what they what we call an academy reception piece. So it was always like it had to be a grand painting. With a mythological or historical subject matter. It couldn't be a portrait or a landscape. It had to be like a religious work or something like that. And then that was judged and if that was good enough, then they could enter into the academy. But when I shouldn't say too, when I say exceptional for the women, it wasn't just that they were exceptionally talented or exceptionally good. What I mean by that is that women like Angelica Kauffman, for example, she she was very successful. She was an independent professional artist. She was considered exceptional, not just because of her talent, but the fact that she was a woman. You know, it's like, women aren't really supposed to be good at these things. Women are, you know, the too imaginative. They're too irrational and emotional to be doing work. In the same capacity as men, right? Well, because because she's a woman, she's exceptional. And it's a heartbreaking thing to say like, and I still I find that really difficult because you know, in that period women, like Pompadour, for example, she was the king's favorite she was a powerful patron she was an intellectual she, she was also a printmaker, she was doing all these amazing things. She was, she was, of course, very, very powerful and privileged because of the position she was in. But she was also someone who came from a middle class background and worked her way up. But these, these women were standout figures. And we we call them exceptional, because that's not that's not the normal life of a woman in that period like that they are elite women. And even even when you do have privilege behind you, you're still you still have to go the extra mile to, you know, advance yourself and to prove your capacity more than your male counterparts. Do, you know, you have to work harder to get there and to keep that position. As you it's really, because men and women were considered to be completely opposite, like men were the rational creatures capable of higher thinking and academic pursuit and women were nurturers and mothers and imaginative creatures prone to hysteria, things like that. Let's see exactly how they spoke about them. You know, women, women had the creative impulse, but they're also too imaginative and emotional to sort of harness those qualities into our interior rational way to make something more, more worthy of the academy, for example, I don't really know how to explain it. It's, yeah, they couldn't harness all of that stuff that creative people have, in a way that was balanced and reasoned enough to achieve, you know, a great work of art. Yes, it's like the eyes of men. Yeah, in the eyes of men. And so that's an even in art criticism, like, we do have documents where art critics are saying, oh, you know, this particular artists would be much better, you know, doing their paper flower cutouts, because they were looking at crafting. And this is where our denigration of craft comes from, too. That's associated with the feminine stuff. So they're kind of I don't know, you're not really good enough to be a professional painter, just go into your crafty stuff instead, you know, is that hierarchy? It's very gendered? Yeah. I think that we are getting better at that. But I think that kind of does still persist, sometimes. So these women that you talk about that went to the academy, where they mothers as well. This is where I'm not, I don't know a lot about their biography. I know that LeBron had one daughter, and I think her name was Xian. And she actually appears in lots of her portraits. I don't know their story very well, I think. I think this little girl was in lots of portraits. And so she would have been very close to her mother at that time. But for some reason, I think, later in life, their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm not really sure why. But you know, she was her mother was painting her, so she was subject matter. And there are, of course, other artists, especially in the 20th century, who have used and postmodern period as well, who have used their children as part of their artworks. Yeah. Is that something I'm really interested in? Is that that this challenge between their work and their role as a mother, is that something that women artists have faced in the past? I mean, I'm sure that it can you say you can you say it in the work? Or does it come out in the work or is it? Is it something that you've you can research? That makes sense? There's the Oh, wow. It's like, you know, there's so many different ways of being an artist, and there's so many different ways of being a woman in so many different ways of being a mother. So I think, like, for example, Barbara Hepworth, I'm just pulling out examples as I think of them. Barbara Hepworth was a sculptor and her work is quite abstract, but I know that she, she really considered being a mother integral to her practice. I don't know a lot about her work, but I know that she did consider her children to be as, like very influential on her like she loved being a mother and she thought that was really important to her practice, but also know that there are lots of artists like feminist artists who would have loved to have children but didn't have children because they knew having children would have a big, like a detrimental impact. on their career, so there are artists who have consciously made the choice not to have children. Louise Bush was another artist and nothing she had five children. She, again thrived on being a mother, I'm not sure how that shaped her practice for her. But there's another artists birth Maura, so an impressionist artist, and her daughter is, again, provide subject matter for her. We have lots of images where you see her daughter making an appearance. And I think she, I think her daughter was a model for other artists as well. So in, in lots of ways children have been subject matter for artists. In other ways, they've just, you know, I suppose, been around and provided their mums with energy. And, you know, I don't Yes, it's fair, it's very different for all artists, I think. I have friends who are mothers and artists now and I know, a couple of them motherhood is a very, like, it's a central theme in their practice. And their work is very specifically about motherhood and about their children. So I think I kind of get the sense that it's easier to make that kind of artwork now than it has been, like in the early modern period, for example. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say, too, is just going back to the early modern period, there's lots of artists. This is another thing that's really sad. There's lots of other artists who are very, very good painters, but a lot of their work has been lost or destroyed. So a lot of their work we just don't even know, we don't have record of and there are other artists working in the Baroque and Renaissance periods, for example, where their workers that we were starting to learn now their work has been mis attributed to male artists. Ah, so there's a lot of stuff we just don't know yet. Hopefully, we do uncover more. But, you know, there are other artists who are very prolific, and then they have children, and, you know, their career finishes, or slows down, or some artists have been fortunate enough to have husbands who were very, very supportive and have nurtured their careers, other artists. I can't remember her name. Now. I read this in passing the other day. She was a composer. She was forbidden to practice by her husband when she had children. So she just stopped. And I think I'm trying to think of her name. It's just escaped me, which is really terrible. She was associated with the Bauhaus artist. So I think what happened with her is she stopped practicing. But it took over a period of years, it took her an enormous toll on her health and well being. And for some reason, I think her husband was convinced, actually, no, you need to let her do her work again. And so she did do some work before she died. But she lost a lot of time. Yeah. Well, that's what her name was. I have, I'll have to go back through the book that I was reading the other day and find her name for you if you're interested. Because she's Yeah, composer. I think her husband, I'm not sure if he was an artist, but he was definitely associated with the Bauhaus school, which is designers and artists in Germany. Yeah, I don't. It's just something that I came across the other day. I don't know very much about that about her. But that just kind of really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. terribly sad. So I think there's a lot more we could we could say, but it hasn't been written and recorded or research yet or hasn't been found yet or it's been raised. Yeah. In terms of your identity, as a mother, I asked my guests this question about, I do the air quotes, is it important to you to be more than just a mom and I say just a mom, because I know that's not a correct statement? Is it important for you to keep that identity and not become mum? Just mum? Absolutely. Um, for me, it's vital. And I think, again, as I was saying earlier, I think that's a really big part of my mental health. You know, being an artist, I guess is at the core of my identity. And I think it always has been, but also in terms of my children looking at me, I think, you know, it's important for both of them, not just my daughter, but for my son to to see that, you know, women, even in their roles as mothers and nurtures they're multifaceted multi dimensional beings and, you know, we have our own interest, not just career or art was have our own likes and dislikes and responses to things, we have our own feelings around stuff. You know, things impact us as much as they impact someone else would we hold everything together, but we need to be looked after as well. And sometimes we need to look after ourselves. And you know, that's critical. It's absolutely critical. And, you know, one day, we're not going to be doing the, the, the intense hands on mothering where our children are so dependent on us, they're going to go and live their own lives. And, you know, they need to, they need to acknowledge that we have our own lives going on as well. And we need to acknowledge that we need to take that we need to hold on to that. Because otherwise, you know, there's so much I think there's so much potential loss, if you don't, hold on, hold on to something for yourself. And I can't imagine what that would be like. Yeah, and I also feel like, as a, as a mother, myself, I never wanted to be that authoritarian, just just mum kind of person, I want it to be a friend, I want it to be someone that they would, you know, feel comfortable coming to want to have around later on in life. And they're doing their own thing, too. You know, I don't want to just be the mum who does everything for everybody. I want to be the person who is counted on as a friend as well. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's motherhood Being a mother is a multi dimensional thing. It's not just you do the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning, taking the kids to school, changing the nappies. It's much more than that. Like, there's, there's a whole unique, amazing individual underneath all of that. And that person still needs to live. Like, you know, and they need to, they need to thrive like everybody else does. Yeah, it's important, obviously, important to you, for your children to say that in you to recognize Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, they're not getting the best of me. And I know, of course, there are days, they're not getting the best of me because I'm tired and worn out. And I haven't given myself enough time or something. But that's my responsibility. Right? Like, you know, I can't, I was saying to my cousin who's a single father the other day, he's really struggling, being a single dad in lockdown sometimes. And I said to him, like, if you don't, if you don't put self care at the top of your list, you can not be the best dad for your child. Long term. You can't sustain it like, you do have to look after yourself. Yeah, whatever. And that looks different for everybody. Yeah, no, but let's see. Yeah, absolutely. I really value the stay at home mum, as well, as much as I do the working mom, you know, I think we've got to be careful of, not sort of, I worry sometimes that we diminish the role that mums have if they choose to opt out of a career because they want to stay at home. I think that's a really powerful, meaningful, valuable thing to do. I think that's incredible. I know that I'm not capable of that. But also know that mums who are doing that, even if they're not working in a job that's paid and acknowledged, it's more important for them to maintain a sense of their identity, because, you know, otherwise, there's a danger of losing themselves in that. And then when their kids leave, like I was saying, what's left, you know, they need to have something that's just for them for themselves. Do you know what being a mum is? bloody difficult. It's probably one of the hardest jobs in the whole world. It is the hardest job in the whole world. For lots of different reasons. I think like it's, it's incredibly tough. And I think yeah, like I was saying, I think doing the stay at home mom thing is the toughest gig of all and I know that I'm not capable of that. I have an immense admiration for people who are doing that. They deserve everything, they deserve all the credit and they deserve that timeout and they deserve being looked after and acknowledged and honored and supported and I worry that they don't get that enough. I worry that even as women we don't give them that enough so I guess then that sort of leads me into the the concept of mum guilt. I think after you know, after the podcast that you're doing, I think you're becoming the expert on this. So I would love to know what you think on that. I think you know what I think I know that I've definitely suffered mother guilt for a different reason. There's a couple of strands of thinking here that I've got. So I think the whole thing with mum do I think, is reflective of a deeply patriarchal society that we live in. And what I'm going to say is I don't think that it's, and I'm trying to be careful about how I word this. I don't think it's necessarily men who are telling us to feel guilty. I feel like we're doing that to each other. I feel like I'll give you an example of this. When I, when I had my children, I was super, super lucky. I was able to breastfeed really easily, like I had absolutely no problem, I loved it. And it was, it was just like, falling away, oh, when my cousin had a child, not long after, and she found it incredibly difficult to breastfeed. She tried everything she could think of. And she was in agony. And I don't really know the particulars, but I know she really, she gave it a good crack. And she ended up having her her baby bottle fed and this nose. So this is like 18 years ago, too. It's not like yesterday. So I need to say things are changing. But, you know, the pressure and the judgment and the criticism that she got for that choice came from other women. And she really struggled with that guilt for a long time of like, I can't feed my child, the way everyone's telling me I should be. I'm not a good mom. And I'm like that, that is, to me, one of the most damaging things that we can do, is judging each other and not supporting each other. I think living in a patriarchal society means that if you're socialized as a heteronormative, woman, or girl, you're also taught that we're in competition with each other in lots of different ways. And I think that comes out in motherhood too. Like, if your child isn't sleeping all the way through at six weeks, you're doing something wrong. If you take a day home by yourself, and you're not working, you're doing something wrong. If you can't breastfeed, you're doing something wrong. If you don't give birth, naturally, you're doing something wrong. So I think I really feel like certainly for me, that's where a lot of guilt initially came from. I don't really do that anymore. Like, sometimes I kind of struggle with putting myself first like I bang on about that all the time. But I'm not always very good at doing that. But you know, my guilt, or my shame, I shouldn't say shame came from experiencing postnatal depression with my son. You know, I felt such shame for that. Because I really, at that time, I don't believe it anymore. But at that time, I really felt like I wasn't a good mom. And you know, and I think the other thing is, it's not always what we say to women is what we don't say to women, you know, we at that time, I know it's different. Now, I know it's changing. But at that time, people weren't really talking about postnatal depression, and I was terrified. I thought, you know, what, if I tell my doctor that something's not right, I think they might say that I don't deserve to have my child. Like, you know, I was honestly I was, I was petrified. And then, when things kind of settled down for me, and I was on medication, I just had that overwhelming shame. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing I'm not doing a good enough job. Like, I'm not as amazing as that lady over there with her five kids is, you know, like, was so in love with this little baby, but I couldn't get it right. And something was wrong, and I couldn't understand it. So I think, yeah, I think that's the closest that I've really had to that full on mom guilt. And I just kind of feel like, we need to do more as women to encourage and support each other. But talk about and this is why I think your podcast is so amazing. We need to share all the crap stuff because there's so much crap stuff. And I'm sorry, being a mom is amazing. And it's an honor, it's a privilege, but there is so much crap in it. There's so much stuff that there's so much stuff that hurts there's so much stuff that's ugly and demoralizing and upsetting. And so many so many things that other people just don't understand. But you know, we need to at least acknowledge it and we need to, we need to tell our own children. You know what? Childbirth isn't easy. And it's okay, if you feel like shit after you've had your child like it's okay. Like all of these things are okay. And it's normal and a million other people are doing it too. Because it's so and you know, like I I learned so much from that experience, and I think it's, it's certainly taught me things so that hopefully I can be a much more empathetic ache mother friend, whoever I need to be for someone else, you might go through that. But, you know, like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and all that. It's, I don't know, I just kind of remember how confusing it all was too, because I desperately wanted my son like, he was a baby I literally prayed for, like, you know, I wasn't interested in becoming a mother for the longest time. And all of a sudden, I desperately wanted and wanted to have this baby. And he didn't come for a while. And then when he did come, and then I had him and I was looking at his eyes, I was absolutely honestly, had never felt such love. But at the same time, I was petrified out of my mind. And I was really sad and anxious. I felt like oh, my God, I've, I'm going to break this thing, I'm going to do something wrong. And then the more I plummeted into that, anxiety and depression, I thought, if I say anything to anybody, they're gonna take my baby. Like, though, in the very, very early days before I told my doctor, I thought someone's going to take him away from me. And I think that's why I didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't want to be judged. I did talk to my parents about it. I talked to, you know, my son's grand grandmother about it as well, very early on. And they're the ones who actually kind of steered me over to the doctor to get some medication. Thank goodness, because I wasn't in a very good way. So and, you know, that, yeah, it takes a really long time to get your head around that and a really long time to, to say those words. But there's so important. And I think this is another reason why I think your podcast is so immensely valuable, because I think if someone had just said to me, 18 years ago, it will be okay. And you were going to do great. And you're going to do all these other things, too. I think they would have made a big difference. And you're not a bad mom, and you're an amazing Mum, you just need a little bit of support like everyone does. So yeah, thank goodness, I think I think things are changing. I think we are starting to talk about mental mental health in the mainstream. Much more than we did, but yeah, geez. First time mother. That's crippling. It's really crippling. But again, I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a real depth of knowledge and wisdom that comes from that experience two things. I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter at all. I had the postnatal depression with my son. And that was a very traumatic birth. And I think, yeah, maybe it was a PTSD thing. The I think the reason maybe I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter is because I said, I'm not doing that. Again, I'm having this as Aryan thanks. Because, you know, I sustained some injuries and things as well. And like that was that was quite an ordeal for me. And I think because I made that decision early that might have had a bit of an impact. But I remember with my son too, like, there were nights, but I just didn't sleep. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, that was a big thing. I just did not sleep and not not because he was a bad sleeper, but I literally couldn't sleep. And I remember one of the nurses who came to the house to check in on me and stuff. She said to me, oh, when you can't sleep, why don't you just use that time to do your painting? And I was just like, I can't because I literally was paralyzed. I felt sometimes like I was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a really hard space to be in and being creative. I couldn't read a book. Like I honestly couldn't read a book. So I think to create work when you're in that space is I think it's probably impossible. It's like you barely functioning. It's like having a shower was just like, wow, this big achievement. Yep, absolutely. When you say it now, it seems like so unreal. But well, the energy that that takes is incredible. Like, yeah, it's something that you just can't be understated how, how debilitating that is and how we really need to support people who are in that I was gonna say I've always been very opinionated. And having that experience on these kinds of issues has made me even more opinionated and more vocal. And, you know, sometimes I get quite angry. And I think because it's like, yeah, I know what that's like. But you know, that to go back to that thing about the breastfeeding thing? Yeah, I had an awesome experience, I had an awesome pregnancy. But when I hear about someone who's not having that same experience, and who's really struggling and are being judged and criticized for become equally passionate about that, because I'm like, This is not okay. Like, you know, we need to be supportive of each other, especially women, we need to be supportive of each other, whatever our experiences and choices are, whether that's around motherhood, birth career, or not, whatever that looks like, whatever our choices are, we really need to, you know, support that. I think that's the most powerful thing we can do. That's interesting, by the way, that judgment? Yeah, it's interesting. Why do we judge each other like that? Like, is it because Is it is it going back to Days of having to compete for the affections of men or something? So you put other women down? So it makes you look better? Like, is it? Why do we do? I'm not, I'm not really I don't really know. But I have, I have read that in a patriarchal culture, like a Western patriarchal culture, women are socialized to be in competition with each other. And we are kind of socialized to think that there's limitations on resources and, you know, limitations on access to men and all of these kinds of crazy things. Like if you want to, you know, I mean, it goes back into history to like, you look way back into history, like it was really important to be engaged by a particular time in your life. And if you weren't engaged and married, it was a serious problem, you know, and so people, like, even if you watch Jane Austen Oh, yeah, there's always threads, you know, women are in competition with each other, because they want to get the best pick of the of the man to have them, you know, to validate who they are, as women and people in society, it's crazy. I think we've been doing that for a very long time. And not just not just around men, I think, you know, just as we frame ourselves as women in relation to each other and our positions in society, we might not think that consciously, but I think that's embedded in our collective consciousness or something somewhere, it's like, you know, a baby cries. And we have that no one says, When your baby cries, you have to do the thing you are compelled, like, your, your urge is to go out and check your baby, pick it, pick the baby up and do particular things. Because that's what you're built to do. And I think there are, I mean, we're animals, I think these things are so deeply embedded in our primal brain and our collective consciousness and all those things that I'm not familiar, like, I don't have enough knowledge on that. But I think that's got a big part to do with it. But I think we, you know, we're acknowledging it and talking about it. So hopefully, that's a really big step in starting to dismantle some of that stuff. In all of the things that I've said, I should also, you know, definitely point out that in all the the competitiveness and things that we've been talking about, there are some amazing communities that you find that you do find for yourself, where you do get that support, and that friendship, which is absolute gold. And, you know, for me, I've found that with two, two women when my son went to kindy. So it took me took me a long time to find that, but, you know, I've maintained those friendships for the last 14 years now, and I always will, you know, it's incredible. What we've, you know, the friendship that we've given to each other this whole time, it's unconditional, you know, like, it's it. Yeah, it's really unconditional. So there is there is all of that richness and beauty there, too. But, yeah, I really like it, if that became the norm, like if that was the biggest story, and the other things that we that we've been discussing were, you know, rare incidents. We can talk about, you know, what in history that used to happen, and yeah, exactly. The you know, what you're saying now to about the competitiveness thing, I actually get such a thrill. I'm always so excited when I see anybody regardless of gender, or whether or not there a mum or dad. I get such a kick out of seeing people take their own initiative and do their own stuff and make their own things happen. And so, yeah, I'd like to tell you that You know that you're taking your own initiative to do this podcast. When I, when I first found out about it, I was so excited about it because I thought, wow, this is, this is something that you're doing. It's your own project because you care about it. And it's meaningful, and it's, you know, sustaining you, it's wonderful, but you're also giving such a gift to so many people. So well done. That is a fair, that's a very, very long way away from being competitive. That's, that's incredibly generous. And it's really wonderful to see. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Okay, it's exciting. It's wonderful. And and you know, what, it's actually a really brave thing to do to, to do a podcast and to share and, you know, to talk to people about all this kind of stuff. I'm at the moment, I'm taking some time out to experiment and explore in my practice, because this year already I've had working for exhibitions. And I've been teaching and studying as well. So I'm sort of on a little bit of a, like, I've got little bits of paid work happening. But in terms of exhibitions and stuff for the rest of the year, I don't have anything on the go. At the moment, I'm just taking this time to play with ideas and materials in my studio, and have a bit of a break to probably for exhibition. Yeah, oh my gosh, though, they were amazing. But because of COVID, it meant that some exhibitions were pushed forward. And all it was all just in the timing. So, you know, three exhibitions, were pretty much back to back. And to two exhibitions that I had opened in the one week, that was pretty intense. It was pretty intense. And so it was kind of like, Yes, I need time to recover. I also need time to just play. Like, I just need to play with my materials. And I've already I've already got ideas for my next series of work, but I just want to explore the potential of different techniques and materials at the moment. Um, to kick that off, we then just take a bit of a breather you know, Oh, tell you something really funny. I'll never forget this. When I was doing my PhD, I had to, I was doing full time study. And then I had to go down to part time and stuff. So my PhD took a little bit longer than I thought it would. And I remember my son said to me, one day, see that little girl walking around over there. And that was my daughter. He said, that's your PhD. Because I, when I was doing my PhD, six months in, I fell pregnant, I didn't realize that this was going to happen, fell pregnant, and I had my daughter and I'm still doing my PhD when she was like, three. You know, I kind of submitted not that long after but he was like, there's your PhD running around over there, mom, and I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was and it was quite startling, because you already knew like I was when he said that I was sort of like in the process of winding it all up. And you know, I was on the homestretch. But he was like, there she is. A PhD. That is gone. Yeah, it's like, making visible the the length that it has taken me to do this thing. Yeah. And all the effort that you've put into here, rather than the PhD. It's just yeah. That is hilarious. Thank you very much, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat and all the best with everything you've got coming up. Thank you so much, Alison, and congratulations on a fantastic podcast and wish you all the best for the future in this fantastic project that you have. It's been really fun talking to you today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Allison.

Zach Mander Australian comedian + announcer S4Ep103 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In the second of my Father's Day special podcast episodes. I welcome Zach Mander, a comedian, radio announcer and father of 2 from Brisbane Australia. Zach has hosted national radio shows on stations such as 2Day FM and FOX FM and specialises in clever and offbeat content. He is the self proclaimed 'Bluey detective delving in to the much loved Aussie kids show and providing witty observations. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission thanks to my APRA AMCOS mini online license. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes .....

Mary Sotiropolous and Jessie Ann Elliot Australian authors S4 Ep95 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Welcome to Season 4! To begin we have a special episode to mark Mother's Day in Australia, and many other countries including most of Europe, Canada, Brazil, China and Japan. I am thrilled to welcome two creative mothers, Mary Sotiropoulos + Jessie Ann Elliot, Mary grew up in Sydney + moved to Goulburn almost 5 years ago, and she's a mum of a 3 year old daughter. Mary went from being a Full Time teacher to a Writer, Community Builder and Unschooling Guide. Jessie has been a Hunter Valley local (NSW) for most of her life, except for a tiny quarter life crisis year in Scotland at the age of 23. She's a mum of 2 children, a boy and a girl. Jessie went from a Full time Community Planner in Local Government to a Writer, Creator, Photographer, Holistic Counsellor, Meditation Therapist and Women’s Circle Facilitator. and they have collaborated to write the book "The Mum Who Found Her Sparkle." Jessie and Mary started out as online friends, meeting in a membership facilitated by Motherhood Studies Sociologist Dr Sophie Brock. (a previous guest of the podcast) In this group they learnt not only about Matrescence, but how Motherhood is socially constructed and how far removed the act of housework is from actual Mothering. The journeys to becoming Mothers saw both women completely re-evaluate how they viewed the world, There is no mistaking that our culture glorifies being able to ‘do it all’ and that this significantly impacts on the wellbeing and mental health of Mothers and therefore families. The joy is often lost, the things that a women enjoyed pre-motherhood often put on the back burner, as she places others above her. In June 2022 Jessie had the idea to write a children's book aimed at mothers, that would explore the topic of this 'lost sparkle' that a mother can experience when she puts her needs last. The pair went on to create it in the early hours of the morning, late at night, in pockets of time between getting snacks for children or changing nappies. The story follows Te and Oscar as they support their Mum Amber, to find her Sparkle. It is a story of a Mum being just as worthy of her shiny-ness as her kids are, and everyone knowing about it. Within the story there are layers of meaning and they have intentionally designed many opportunities to spark purposeful conversation throughout its' pages. It is their hope that this book inspires not just kids, but parents to prioritise finding that lost Sparkle. The book will be available in the coming months. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety and birth trauma** Jessie and Mary - instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to welcome you back to Season Four after a short little break. And as always, on Mother's Day, I like to do a little bit of a special episode usually with more than one guest. So today I'm very excited to welcome bliss and Jessie and Elliot. Mary grew up in Sydney and moved to Goldman almost five years ago. She's a mom of a three year old daughter. She went from being a full time teacher to a writer, community builder, and unschooling guide, Jessie has been a Hunter Valley local for most of her life, except for a tiny quarterlife crisis here in Scotland at the age of 23. She's a mom of two children, a boy and a girl. Jessie went from a full time community planner in local government, to a writer, creator, photographer, holistic counselor, meditation therapist and women's circle facilitator. And they have collaborated to write the book the mum who found her sparkle. Jessie and Mary started out as online friends meeting in a membership facilitated by motherhood study sociologist Dr. Sophy Brock, who's also a previous guest of this podcast. In this group, they learned not only about muttrah essence, that how motherhood is socially constructed, and how far removed the act of housework is from actual mothering. The journeys to becoming mothers saw both women completely reevaluate how they viewed the world. There is no mistaking that our culture glorifies being able to do it all, and that this significantly impacts on the well being and mental health of mothers and therefore families, the joy is often lost, and things that a woman enjoyed pre motherhood are often put on the backburner as she places others needs above her own. In June 2022, Jessie had the idea to write a children's book aimed at mothers that would explore the topic of this last sparkle that a mother can experience when she puts her needs last. The pay went on to create it in the early hours of the morning, late at night, in pockets of time between getting snacks for children, or changing nappies. This story follows tea and Oscar as they support their mum Amber to find her sparkle. It is a story of a mum being just as worthy of his shininess as her kids and everyone knowing about it. Within the story, there are layers of meaning, and they have intentionally designed many opportunities to spark purpose or conversation throughout its pages. Their hope is that this book inspires not just kids, but parents to prioritize finding that lost sparkle, and the book will be available in the coming months. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety and birth trauma. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. It was a lot of fun to record. Joining me on this very special Mother's Day episode, I have not one but two creative mothers. I'd love to welcome Jessie and Mary to the podcast. Thank you for coming on ladies, I assume thank you so much for having us. Oh, it's my pleasure. I love it. I love it. I've only ever had one other episode where I had multiple guests at once. So it is lovely to treat for me to more than one face in the in the Zoom chat. It's lovely. Yeah. So tell me briefly before we launch into things whereabouts are you both at the moment? You're Victoria, am I right or not? You tell me I've done know where I'm going. That's all right close. So I am in Hunter Valley, so just outside of Maitland, which is sort of near Newcastle. So yeah, we're in New South Wales, being a hunter local for most of my life, except for a quarter life crisis when I moved to Scotland for a year. But other than that, I've been a hunter local. So yeah, yeah, just leave around that. So you both like you know each other in real life apart from on Instagram. Well, I was a Sydney girl grew up as a city girl, but I live about an hour and a half or two hours out of the main center of Sydney, and about half an hour from Canberra, in regional New South Wales. So we met in an online membership with Dr. Sophie Brock back in 2020. Was it? Yeah, yeah. I was 2020. And then once Jessie had her second in 2021, we sort of connected even more at that point. Because I was fascinated by how she was navigating her second postpartum fourth trimester. Yeah, and apologies. We did say this. My beautiful daughter is very much wanting to make an appearance. Wonderful. Oh, oh, good. So yes, when you said Dr. Sophy broke, I got excited because I've had Sophie on the podcast and she's amazing. I love what she's teaching. She's for those who don't know, Sophie's motherhood studies sociologist based in Australia in Sydney. I think she is. And she runs lots of things online education and even just if you just get on her Instagram, it's incredibly inspiring. And yes, so that's awesome. But yes, go on. Sorry. Lately tried. Oh, no, it's it's very any chance to pump her up? We're totally in support. It was, it was a beautiful meet you so yeah, we met in her online membership, liberate it. And as Mary said, we just sort of started chatting more and more. And after a period of time, you know, doing that Mary went on a road trip and actually came and had dinner at our house. And when we met in person, it was just it was very easy. You know, it was it wasn't it was just kind of like of course we've always known each other in person. It was just yeah, really sort of easy. I think it was a year ago if last year that I've met you in person Yeah. And then all the rest is history breadcrumbs. You lovely ladies have got a book in the works, which is pretty awesome. And it's called the mum who found her sparkle. So who would like to tell us? Maybe maybe start off by sharing how you came up with it or what compelled you to create the children's book? Yeah. Well, I guess going right back to when I became a mum, I planted load for the birth, I knew roughly how to change a nappy. I knew possibly I might need to swaddle the newborn. But I really hadn't prepared myself for that, that transition to mother for matrices properly. And I experienced postnatal depression and anxiety for probably the first you know, eight, nine months sort of severely after my son was born. And in that time, I really found that I I very much dismissed my my feelings and my emotions. And I was just doing a hell of a lot of disassociation. disassociating. And it wasn't until I started to, again sort of focus on my creativity. So my Excel The expression that I started to claw my way out of that. So that had been sort of brewing since 2020, I guess how important it is for us to focus on what brings us joy. And so I guess coming from that, slowly, slowly, slowly building that more into my life, and then leading in to when I fell pregnant with my daughter, my second pregnancy, and approaching the end of it, and I thought, okay, I know much more now about accepting all the help that I can. I know that I need to engage the support of a postpartum doula. I know I need to just let the house go in terms of the task. But I thought, What am I doing to plan for my creativity in this time in my life, because I knew that I needed that to stay really mentally well, and to to really assist in that transition. So I came up with a project to create a project. So I wish I had called it 90 Emotional days. And so each day in during my fourth trimester, I was going to take, you know, a moment or several moments to check in with myself and how I was feeling and, and really sort of it was to help myself as well name what I was feeling because as you know, growing up a good girl like we all do, we, we kind of don't really learn how to really properly honor what we're feeling, or even know what that might even be some of the time. And that creative element as well was either taking, you know, a photo or making a video and just sharing that each and every day, whenever, however, it sort of felt good. And it sort of evolved in to making funny reels doing breastfeeding inspired digital art, taking breastfeeding photos in front of wall art out in the community. And then right at the end of that my daughter, I think she was four months old. And this idea came to me. And originally, it was, I messaged Mary straightaway, originally it was the mum who lost her expression. So that was where the idea originally come from. And then it just blossomed and blossomed. So and evolved and changed as both of us were on the journey of this book together. And I think for both of us we've had we had struggles did we marry just sort of talking about at the start of both of our postpartum journeys and what that transition was actually like? Yeah, I think I'm a little different to Jessie, and that I'm not as organized as her again. She was, I think I was watching on when she was doing the 90 Emotional days and thinking, how is she doing this with a newborn. I mean, it just was so foreign to me, because I My experience was, I mean, I would have definitely been diagnosed with postnatal anxiety. I never actually went to the dopamine hit COVID locked down two weeks after I had my daughter. And it was smack bang, the time she woke up and she was an extremely vocal, unsettled little Baba. And that's kind of just She's three now. And that's, that's just kind of been our thing for three years, which is fine. But I think I just started to see that I needed to pull from different little things that brought me joy, essentially. And I kind of started to grab onto these little things that would bring me joy, because I knew that my mental health was better for it. So Jessie was like one of those people. So when she jumped into my DMs, I'm thinking she's onto something here. And I think you're originally approached me because I did say to her, You do not need me for this. Jessie, you can run with this idea. I'm happy to help assist you through the process. Like, because because I'm a primary school teacher. I've read lots of picture books to so many different kids. I love them. I think they're a beautiful way to access information and create like a depth of meaning. I think they're really underutilized resource. So yeah, and I did a few read alouds just on my Instagram, I was reading with my daughter, like some picture books that I liked. And then so she's sort of jumped into my DMs. Yes, this is great. Loving this idea. I can absolutely see where you're going with it. Or you don't actually I don't think you need me. We've yet she convinced me that it was a joint project project. And I'm incredibly grateful for that because I mean, even from last year, the message has definitely evolved. Just sort of organically as we've been going through the process. That's right, like not forced, it's just sort of it's kind of gained legs and momentum. Because I think I mean, this is what this podcast is all about two, moms are super creative. And I mean, when I would think of what creativity was, or an artist was somebody that was creative, I think, someone that could draw or paint really well. And I'm not those things I could not draw, I need a YouTube video with a step by step instructions on how to draw anything, I'm a stick person didn't progress past you, too. It was also getting my head around the fact that creativity and particularly motherboard can look like a whole bunch of different things, there's not one little narrow box that it fits into. So obviously, the picture will make sense for us both. Yeah, I love that. My my backgrounds in early childhood education, so I can relate to, I love the idea of, of, you know, it's so simple, you just think it's a it's a simple book. And but it can express and convey so much and so many, you know, you can choose what layer of meaning you take from it, you know, depending on who's reading it, and I love that it's a children's book, but someone has to read it to the children, you know, so that person is going to get so much out of it. Was that really deliberate that you wanted to? You wanted to make it like that? That was right from the start? That's how you're planning it? Absolutely. It's sort of yes, it's a picture book. And I guess yes, you could read it and think, oh, you know, he's a bit of glitter, and we're going on adventure with this letter. But for those that want to use it as a tool to have those conversations around, you know, mommy's mom's mental health and even around challenging with the caregiving role, you know, we were really strong on having dad be really involved in care work in the book, and also having extended family around. So it was a way to have that conversation around the importance of you know, mental health as in, you know, reacting to that as urgency urgently as we may have, if someone broke a leg, you know, just just, you know, really elevating that conversation, but also challenging really early some of those stereotypes that we have around around care work and the presence of a village so yes, you could read it at any layer. But it was definitely so intentional for us to sort of just yeah, really just wave some really deep meaning throughout and that is where Mary's experience you know, expertise came in to be able to you had with her experience of reading so many books just yeah, be able to make sure that we were adding so many layers and we were talking the other day, Mary and you were saying you know I even picture this hidden you know, the Self Help for moms like section of like bookshop, because we weren't for for the parent to be sitting there reading it to be getting something from it and you know, in some ways feeling you know, really important and validated that they are important. She, I'm going to refer back to a quote that I found on your Instagram, Jesse, if you don't mind, I'll quote you. Everyone does it. Whatever I say these people freak out. So don't it's not it's not bad. It's really, really good. You said I did not like who I was when I became a mum. I dismissed and invalidated my own needs. I judged myself on expectations placed on me by a society that glorifies supermoms and the myth of the perfect mother. And when I read that, I just went boom like that. I honestly, I, I related to that very much. And I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there that relate to that. And that's that thing. It's our expectations. And like you said, the, like the cultural norms that are set up, that we're not supported. We're not and it frustrates me so much I have this this conversation with just about everyone I have on here. Like we're, we're this, we basically keep life going, if it wasn't for us, if we just said not sorry, end of end of everything, we're not going to, we're not going to keep doing this, there would be no more human race. So why, like we're revered in so many senses. But then when it comes to just with just a man, you know, it's like, you lose your identity, you lose your sense of self, you're like, you know, and that is brought on by the way society sees us, and makes me really, really cross. So yes, I love that quote. Not because you went through it, though, like, I'm not saying I loved it, because we can see our experience in it. And that's something you know, Mary, and I feel so strongly about in that. Yes, the level of intensity right now can be intense, but it's very important for us to challenge this so that our children experience it less, and then their children less, we like that, I won't swear I won't like you can swear, you know, I'm just like, there's no fucking way my daughter will be going through this, my son will not be going, you know, it's just you. You can see what needs to change. And yes, it's frustrating. And you can also go, Well, what can I do in my everyday life to challenge that and change it? So it does get easier and continues to get easier? Yeah, I was gonna bounce off of that. And I think that there's a huge puzzle piece of this book, The mom who found her sparkle for us. We are not. And I mean, I had this dropping as I was driving today. And I thought, I need to say this when I'm on the podcasts later, we are not downplaying the importance of maternal mental health. Like we know, we know the statistics. And I think that's the biggest thing too, Jesse and I are well aware of the statistics, not only because the numbers are there, but because we see it, we talk to mothers, we know we hear the stories, and you would as well doing a podcast like this, it's it, there are themes across the board, what we what we're hoping to achieve with the mom who found her Spark, although is yes, there are sometimes bigger issues at play that need, you know, a lot more support. But if we can sort of start to access that sparkle every day, and just do tiny little things, even in the micro moments that we have, which because that's what we get as moms, right, we're not, we don't have an hour, we don't have an hour to get it all together. Sometimes it's that 35 second little window of time or that five minute little window of time. And our thinking behind Sparkle is it's that way, it's at those small micro moments that you can essentially take back for yourself. And spark that joy and that curiosity that we had before we became moms. I mean, we're human beings out there. We're not just moms like as in we want to be just a mom to as in I love being a mother, but I'm a mom. And yeah, I'm a mom. And and it can be all the things like those things don't just disappear, because suddenly I've got a baby that I'm breastfeeding 24/7 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Where we find our spark was been there from Well, I would argue from when we were babies ourselves. And when we're actually allowed to tap into that feeling of incredible. The way I think of Spark is it's like that feeling of incredible peace you feel when you've discarded all the shows, in your zone, whether it be with your kids there or without like, it doesn't matter. It can be at any point, but you know, that feeling where it's like your soul and heart sort of aligned beautifully. Take that big breath and be like, okay, yes, this is like right here. Like I can almost touch this. And it's trying to just encourage trying to tap into that as much as possible, even in those small pockets of time, so that you get Yeah, and I think we changed the word to sparkle. We were sort of playing around with vocab and thinking about how to make this language accessible. I kid you can imagine Oh, my game was to spark a bit today. Yeah, mom's feeling a little off what could we do to help you get it back? And you know, it can be a conversation that happens in families and like we just see it is a just a really beautiful invitation to create discussion and spark discussion. And that's what this really is for us. Yeah. I think that's really important because I couldn't hark back to the time when I was a child, I had very little understanding or knowledge about my parents goings on. Like, I knew they were my parents. I knew they went to work I needed, they did things, but I didn't know. You know, I knew my dad like sport. And like, what was going on with them? You know, they were very hiding things. I mean, not saying it was they were like, nasty people hiding things. But you know, it was that was what you did in those days, you didn't share things with your kids. And you were sort of protecting them. In a way, I suppose. That's how they saw it. But these days, like, I feel like I share so much with my kids. And sometimes I can think, Oh, should I really be burdening my kids with all this? But then I think, no, it's real life, you know, at some point, they're going to, I don't know, have relationships where it's gonna be good for them to share how they're feeling. And I think that's really great. This opportunity to actually say the words and check in with people and be like, you know, I can see that you're not feeling like your normal self. As you said, use those words, you know, you lost your sparkle, and how can we get it back? I think that's a wonderful thing. And just on a sidenote, like, with my kids at work, I work in a akindi at the moment, and, you know, teaching kids to actually feel their emotions and name their emotions. Yeah. Like you're saying earlier, Jesse about, you know, sometimes you don't even know the name of what you're experiencing. And then to then say, recognizing it in others, and say, what some ways we can help them feel better or, or however, they're feeling, changing that. And I think that's really important that it's not something that's really been done forever, you know, what I mean? I totally agree. And, you know, my, when I grew up, I don't really ever remember, you know, having any kind of conversation around emotions and feelings. And I mean, I think in myself, like, a lot of people, I grew up with a very busy mom, very, very busy mom. And she would be got, she would work full time, my dad would work full time, but he would have I could see had access to a lot more recreation time than she did. She did everything. But yes, still worked full time she would with task to task to task. And that's what I saw growing up. So obviously, that's what I internalized. But even just two or three weeks ago, we were in the car together. And I said to her, Did you do anything for you when we were little? And she said, No, there wasn't any time. And I knew that. That was that's what I witnessed. But I was sort of just wanting to ask, from her perspective, what her sort of memory of it was, and yeah, she didn't. And this is also from a woman she still had her parents, like, you know, they took care of us helped with us and my dad's parents were around so she even had access to a much bigger village then then I do and she struggled. So it's you know, it is you know, that it's things have changed in that we want our kids to we want them to see us as whole humans within reason. But as humans Yeah, and we want to help them get to know themselves. I know when it comes to feelings and emotions, I have absolutely love helping my son because he's for now tune into himself and I and this is so I never thought this would even be a parenting when moment But about six months ago, or might have been a little bit longer. He actually said to me, Mommy, I'm feeling angry. And do you know how proud I was? That he could name that and express that to me? I just thought I just won today and you know, then we actually had the ability to do some things together that helped him you know, move that emotion but yeah, that's it's a really new new thing really, in the in the scheme of sort of generations, generational parenting and stuff like that. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was a meme or something the other day sort of along the lines of now I know why my mom just wanted to sit in a bedroom alone in the dark. And I just love to hate all I want and I think back to this whole self care that we're sold, like, get the massage and your nails done. I'm like, I don't want to sit in a hairdresser. That doesn't bring me joy. I like short, someone else. That's not where I'm finding my sparkle. Let me lie down below on preferably maybe a bit of music. Stuff that suits me just fine. Because that's how my nervous system feels calm. Yeah. Yeah, we're told even Mother's Day is coming up. And I'm thinking to myself to Hobby, be happy if you just take out my beautiful toddler and it takes all gets rid of all that energy and I just sit on the couch. And yeah, absolutely nothing. You know, I don't want a fancy lunch, I don't want to be taken out. And again, I think get the sparkle side of things. Some Mama's will find it, doing those things, which is beautiful. I say power to you by tapping into what actually like how can you access your own how what's gonna make you feel better? It's not anybody else's story. And that's, that's what we love. We get moms jumping in our DMS, like, this is how I found my sparkle today. And they'll send us a little story or a video or a picture. And I said to Jesse, we just, we just pulled this idea out of thin air. And no idea yet, but it was just this little idea. And we've seen it and now we have people having conversations with us about it because it's important last, yes. Brilliant. You know, it was something what you said Mary just made me giggle because on an episode of Grayson, Frankie, they were doing a flashback to racist races Mother's Day, you know, 30 years before or something and she was away at a hotel for the weekend. And they were like, you were away for Mother's Day? And she said, Yeah, well, it's Mother's Day, not Children's Day. Legally, but it's funny, because as you said, you know, what brings each person sparkle could be very different. But that also could change, you know, day to day, minute to minute as well. But something we love to doing didn't we marry? Oh my goodness, sparkle Tober was just the most fun we have ever had. In the month formally called October. Last year, we we renamed it to sparkle Tober. Because we just wanted to, you know, just to continue that conversation that we've started having with you know, our friends and community that we're all growing on Instagram. So we sort of just invited people to share images or videos of them. Just really just doing things that made them you know, brought them sparkle. And Mary did some fabulous dancing. It was wonderful. Dancer hearts, you can take the dancer out. Not choreographed. Okay, I'd like to point this out. Freelance dancer. Yeah, I don't want to be told what to do. I just need space space on that dance floor. And that's wonderful, because we had people sharing, you know, things they were doing with their kids or just by themselves. And it was just this it was so much fun. Just yeah, to have these conversations with friends and family and just to see them so ugly up about it. So yeah, we'll definitely do that again. It was just wonderful. In your DMS Oh, great. You're a VIP, you'll be the next sparkle. Tober for sure. Thank you. Well, I'll be sure to share it with my community and get them involved. And on that note on Mother's Day, I'll be going to the races with that score. Is it is Mother's Day, not a joke when when it was Mother's Day, I distinctly remember asking her once Well, when's Children's Day? Why don't we get a day and she said to me every day is Children's Day. Now I understand time like Ha I know you like but that was interesting what you said before Jesse because that my mother was very similar. She was always busy always doing and would do it herself. We didn't have quite you know, the village that like she might she moved from Melbourne left her family over there but we had neighbors we had my my dad's parents, but I just remember always doing something unless she was sitting down with a cup of tea. You know, but Yeah, same thing i i had come in before I how I asked her but it was a similar thing. It was like I knew dad went out and played footy and he played cricket and they were his his interests. But mum didn't have anything of her own. That was just what she Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and like, I don't I just think I couldn't survive like that. I could survive. because it's not that I, I very firmly want my children to know who I am. I want my grandchildren to know who I am. And not in a context of service like whilst I am incredibly nurturing and caring and you know, all that's a very high value for me, I yes feel very strongly that they, they also need to see me as, as the whole human that I am. And just being in their life is sort of just is one part. It's a very important part, but it's just one part of who I am. Yeah, I love that. I'm gonna take that quote, but you're gonna hear that because that is that it's in a nutshell that's literally it. Like, I feel the same that my boys like I'm I'm very visual with what I like I leave the house to go sing and perform. I know I'm in my studio doing things. And it's like, this is me like like you said, Mary you don't your your passions and the things that you love and your abilities and your gifts. They don't just disappear just because you have. So yeah, I think it's very important, yeah. The saddest thing for me was how long it actually took me to acknowledge them, because all I wanted to ever be was a mom. And I thought, okay, No, Mom. Life goals achieved great, too. And that's now my role. I am secondary to my daughter, she's the most important thing. And that's what I focus on. And obviously, that's just a recipe for disaster. Like it's not going to work. It's not sustainable. And especially I had a daughter, who was for two years of her life, she was awake, constantly, she would wake up, just I would think I had five minutes and not it just wasn't going to happen. Every creak of a floorboard, she would pee. And the more I was pouring into the mothering side, the worse I was feeling, it's just inevitable. I guess that that happens if you're taking no time for yourself. But when we talk about things about what makes a good man, that's what it was. for me. I sacrificed every need every one every everything for my kids. And now that I'm unraveling all this stuff, and pulling back all the layers, I realize how incredibly damaging that is. And that's not something I want to pass to my daughter, why would I want her to think her importance on a priority list is, you know, way down the bottom. That's not That's not a lesson I want to teach. So then it became a, it became a focus to say, Okay, well, no, I am taking that time, I am taking that 10 minutes, I am taking that half an hour and I'm not going to feel incredibly guilty about it every single time I do it, you know, I'm allowed to have a shower in peace. I'm out, but I was I felt so guilty just to jump in the shower, because I knew she would be crying. But I need to show up. I mean, a basic human need. And I'm myself of that. It's, it's just horrible. And I think that and just the conditioning around it all. My mom was the same as yours. You know, same thing. It was limited hobbies. I don't even really know what they were now. Now. She's retired and kind of a bit lost of like, what am I doing for myself? I'm sort of encouraging her now. In her 60s, like Mum, you know, I'm writing this book about like, it could really benefit. Because I do I love her and I want her to see that side. And I think she I think she does and she slowly undoing stories of the 60s, you know, I don't want to be my voice start living. But that is so that's it's a really good point too. It's like it's it's not just for moms who are mothering, actively mothering roles now, is for anyone who's been a mom, or still a mom, you know what I mean? It's like that generation, it doesn't matter how old you are. That's such a good point. It seems like they like you get might get to a certain point and they sort of release I know what my sister and I worry now, probably early 20s, late teens, early 20s. And it's just it, it was like all of a sudden, right? My time and you know, she was you know, hanging out with friends a lot more and going out and doing all of these things and but then, you know, reflecting on that, that obviously that That hurts my heart that she probably wanted to be doing those things, you know, the whole time and then for all of the reasons that we've talked about she she didn't and you know, like it's I don't watch it didn't want that for her. And I've said to her so many times, you deserved more than that. You deserve to be able to do what brought you joy. And I don't know. I don't really know how she feels about hearing that from you know, like, yeah, like, Oh, what do you know? Um, but yeah, you know, like, it's she. We all deserve. We all deserve it. Yeah, that is that is so true you're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Mary, do you mind if I ask? You talked about sort of unraveling that, or changing that story for yourself about just needing to be mum, and putting yourself further down the list when you talked about it changing. But was there a sort of a moment or something that triggered you to start to see that in yourself? Oh, you know what, I'm, I've been asked this a few times. And kind of when I reflect, I realized it wasn't one big moment in time. But it was that accumulation of Well, the fact that my nervous system was rattling constantly. And with every cry with every screen with every you know, it was just I felt incredibly triggered. And so I have spoken about this in podcast before, but I experienced like intense anger and rage. I'm sorry, Bubba, Come on, honey. And I didn't know where that rage was coming from. I mean, I've always been like a passionate sort of person. Fiery, I guess it's like the great bloody me you can't get like, we have a bit of warmth and passion when we do things. But I had a temper, I would say, but not that not the level of rage that sort of was coming out of me like it was explosive. Kind of like, what is going on. I'd never experienced it that way before. And then obviously the guilt and the shame pops in. Because you're like I, I'm feeling this way towards the situation of being a mom is the one thing I wanted. And I'm not even appreciating. It's that cycle like that in a talk that, you know, that little person just sitting there talking to me in the back of my mind is horrible, would say horrible things. But it was me doing it to myself, which is the saddest part for me now. So I don't think it was one big moment it was more just recognizing, like, where is this coming from? Why am I having these feelings? I need to pull in some support here, or I need to be looking at things differently. And then it's just a very slow. It's just a very slow one day one hour at a time process. You know, I see Sophie bra. Oh, she's starting a membership. This could be interesting. And that that really was a big catalyst listening to podcasts hear the word Mitra says, Oh, what is that word? I've not heard of this before? You know, and then yeah, it was just that it was just those small, incremental moments that sort of were building and building until I just kind of went no, I this is not my reality. Now I'm not accepting this as my motherhood experience, and I'm not doing it this way anymore. And then just chlorine, chlorine back and I say chlorine, because like, it is a fight you're fighting against, like you're fighting against not only yourself and that inner chatter, but like we talked about before you're fighting against a society that is actively pushing against you and feels incredibly hard. And I guess again, this is why the picture book is just a beautiful combination of this for me, because it is fun still, like, yes, our book is for mums. But the kids are going to enjoy it as well. It's playful. And I think Jessie and I really exude that, like we enjoy that. Like we have fun when I met her in person as like, I've known him my whole life. mucking around, talking laughing like it was it was easy and easy. And yeah, but it's that that like the mom who found this path couldn't have come in 2020 Like it wasn't ready to be here in 2020 we were we were doing our own thing. Like we were battling our own stuff. We were on that journey. We knew each other but not as well then, but we all kind of like unraveling our stuff to eventually kind of joined together in this book. But yeah, it was not something that could have come in earlier. So yeah, it's it's just you just don't get told this before you become a mom, like how much you have to fight against things that you feel sometimes very much like they're set up to just make you fail. You know? You just don't know this. And I mean, I don't know I always think about how we could have done things differently. But when it's your first kid, it's what you're around and what you hear. I wasn't around Dr. Sophie Brockman, I didn't even know she existed. I didn't know people like Jessie existed. I didn't know this podcast would have been a thing like you don't know any of this stuff until you're right in it and have conversations about this a lot. Like how could we, you know, prevention over cure, essentially, like getting earlier? And some people are adamant that no, you just have to be in it to understand, but for me, the teacher salaries, I know, we can be doing better for new moms, because then they're not actively seeking out information at the most vulnerable time in their life. They're not scraping together this web, this support network when they're just sleep deprived, and like a really low point in their life. Like we shouldn't have to be waiting for that. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know then what the answer is, I guess spark was our little way of doing that. Just like the past is your little way of doing it. It's all part of the bigger puzzle, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I tell myself like, because you feel like you want to get out there and shake the chains. Like just do something on change everything. That's that's not going to happen. So it's like little bits, little bits all joined together to make hopefully the big change. Let's try we can only make change at the table we're at that's like that. That's a nice. Yeah, well, I can't take one mark. Is it Abby Wambach? Lennon, Doyle's partner said she did a beautiful big post might have been six, eight months ago. And it was just essentially about making change at the table that you're at. So you have to remember that one that's really good with it was incredibly powerful article. And it's obviously it's stuck in my mind, because you do you want to just you want to shake the chains. But like, but that can feel so overwhelming. So how can I, you know, take a step back from that. And what can I do? What can I do to to make those changes make those incremental changes? Yeah, I think the journey all moms go on isn't that we kind of like get to that point of yes, we know, there needs to be that big structural change. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it, right? But then you go, but I am one person who is at this intense period of my life, like Jesse was talking about before. And I don't have the capacity to pull down everything and start from scratch, like, do that. But maybe if I choose to go out with my feet on the grass, instead of doing the dishes today, or taking a little bit back, you know, maybe when he gets home, I feel confident enough to say, Hey, I just need half an hour in the room. I'll be back out and ready to go. I just need that time to regroup after a whole day. Perfect. So you take it back a little bit, you know, it's like taking just taking the little pieces back. And that's what I said before it's clawing it back. Feels like that's what you have to do. And again, it I don't agree with this is how it is, but it's the reality of it. So just take those little pockets of time for yourself, you know, because you do matter, we talk we are human beings. I mean, I used to teach this to my kids. A human being You're a beautiful person, we respect each other in this room because we are all human beings. And that's why there's no other reason but that because we're human beings all living on this earth and we can respect each other and like I used to teach it and then I become a mom and I show myself zero respect 00 care. Like it No, it just doesn't work again. It's not a sustainable model. It's yeah absolutely. Interesting thing isn't that, like, I was not using it to my advantage prior to becoming a mom, I was just consuming the content. Oh, yeah. You know, and obviously, what do you see of moms these perfectly color coordinated photos, everything put together, no masks, you know, all of that. And then when I started using social media differently, you made adjusted, you know, I gotta say, you start building this web, and you realize, okay, if mothers can use it in this way, perfect, really like a great tool in the toolbox. But I think and that's what we talked about before before you become a mom Um, you're not you're not looking for these words, you're not looking for these things. Because what do we get told? Have the beautiful nursery get the beautiful cost? Decorate the room? Or what? You know, what beautiful prints do you have on the wall, my daughter never went into the car, I ended up getting my friend who had just had a third baby. And I said take it, I hope it gets used somewhere else. I'm glad I'm happy to pass that on. Because we didn't use it, it became just a piece of decoration in my room. And this is a very real reality for a lot of people not to say like some kids will go in the car. That's fine. Mine just never did. And, yeah, there's so many shoulds being thrown at me like what I should be doing, Oh, I must be a bad mom. Because my daughter cries a lot. My daughter is very vocal, I must be a bad mom, because she's not sleeping. Well, I must be a bad mom. And that's why she's doing these things. And it took me so long to flip that around and go, No, it's got nothing to do, mate. She is who she is. And I am just doing the best I can with the support that I have at the time with the information I have. I'm just doing my best. And yeah, I mean, we know this as well, your kids get sent to you for a very real reason. Like, I do believe this. And I really love that you spoke about having that big gap because my daughter is three. So obviously, you know, people are already having you next. And for me, um, sometimes I sometimes find it really hard to get my head around it because I'm going to be thrown back in that am I going to be able to cope? Like I know, I have a better support network. Now I know I've resourced myself better. But I know. I know what it can be like to it anymore. And I, you know, I consider all of these things. So I find that tricky. So I love that you talked about a gap because that is something I'm seriously thinking about? Like, am I supposed to have a bigger gap? Where do I sit with that? And very much just trying to get rid of the hole what you should be doing? Because there are no rules here. Like, yeah, there are rules that we have to follow can look different for every person. Yeah, and that was something that I like, between having my kids, obviously, seven years ago and past I was a lot older, and experienced a lot more life. But I did start working in childcare. And in that time, and that was, for me, the biggest thing that I learned that every baby is different. And it really doesn't matter what you do. Like, you know, parents would have instructions of you know, feed them to sleep with a bottle, put them in the awake with a dummy, wrap them, don't wrap them, put them on their side, put them on their belly, like the nurse, like cuddle them, make sure they're asleep before you put them all this sort of stuff. And I just opened my eyes to like there really, there's no right or wrong, because that's that was in my head at that point. Like I'm quite a black and white kind of person, like very, like, I don't know, a structure routine. I like predictability. And so having a baby was like the opposite of all that, you know. And I talked myself into that I was gonna have this baby that was gonna be on this schedule, and whatever. And if not, then yeah, now that I know, this child, I've known, you know, for 15 years, he was never going to be on the schedule, like that kid does not do it. So I had this book that I'd written in, when I was sort of thinking about having another one, like, all the things that I would do different and it was like, Don't be hard on yourself. Don't be hard on your baby, you know, like, sit and cuddle them for ages, like in the books that said, No, you can't cuddle them. After so many weeks, they get used to it, and then they will want you all the time. It was ridiculous. Isn't that God, like? And I read? I think back on those times. And I think my god like that. I don't know, if there's been long term damage done to our relationship because of it. You know, we'll never know the stuff that you think God being told not to hold your child in case they might want you. That's life. People want each other, you know, we want connection we want. We want people and yeah, so I had this massive, long list of things that I would do. And it wasn't necessarily all this practical stuff. It was how I would be kinder to myself. And the expectations that I wouldn't put on myself like breastfeeding. I had to breastfeed my first child. And I went through hell, because I had this idea in my head that you had to breastfeed your child exclusively. And society thing you know, and I remember times of just being in tears, because he wouldn't latch properly. And my husband's like, ah, do you think I should go get some formula? And I was like, No, don't you dare get formula I can do this, you know, and I was sending myself insane. And the best thing that ever happened to me was that when my baby second baby was born, he was really tiny really underweight and he was in one of those little hot box things. I don't know what the directories we know what great, that's fine. But you know, they gave him formula to keep him alive to my milk came in. And it was like it was out of my hands, which was wonderful. You know, it was just taken away from me that I had to put this pressure on myself. And I noticed actually Just see if you want to talk about it or not. I'm not sure because I haven't asked yet. But in that quote that I read, there was a next bit about doing it differently the second time. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about that? Yeah, I am. As I sort of said earlier, I, I, my mental health was atrocious after Finley was born. And I remember sort of sitting in my GPS office, and she was wonderful. She was so wonderful. I was sitting there with a coffee with America's coffee. And my mom was sitting next to me, holding Finley bought me in this beautiful GP was going through the questions, you know, checking in on my mental health. And before I could really say, match my mom, because we were leaving with her at the time, because we were renovating to sell. So my partner and I became parents under her roof. We brought family home from the hospital there, like he grew up the first two and a half years of his life there. And yeah, sort of before I could answer much, my mom, you know, really reassuringly that unknown Yeah, but just as fine. You know, there's, there's not a great deal of pressure on her. I'm doing x y Zed. So, obviously, at that point, I was just like, Yeah, I'm fine. But I wasn't fine. I, you know, I'd had a very traumatic birth. And I think because of that, I had this fierce love for this little boy, my little world changer. His name is Scottish. And it means fair warrior. And I think the way he entered the world definitely, definitely reinforced that that was the correct name for him. I had this fierce love for him is protecting the small protected Mama Bear. But I was really struggling to enjoy the day, today, of you know, the changing bombs and things like and I you know, I could follow a structure, but just sort of feeling, you know, fulfilled. It just wasn't sort of there for me at first. And I was very, very disconnected, very, very disconnected. And like I said, I was very, very mentally unwell. And it wasn't. You know, as I said earlier, it wasn't until I started to actually focus on my needs. Again, I remember that particular moment, I was about Finley, who was maybe eight months old. And I said to my mom, can I go to a cafe? And so she had him. And I went to this cafe. I sat down with my laptop, I called ahead of time, I was like, Can I book a table with a PowerPoint? Because I had my videos about 20 years old. So she has to I've got a new one now. The new new laptop. Yeah. But yeah, my way I could not use it without being plugged in. So I had to call him time. Can I please have a table anyway? So booked me in had my name is I was I sat there. And I just wrote, I wrote and wrote and wrote for about two hours. And when I got back in the car, just how just, you know, sparkly, I feel I was absolutely on top of the world that I got to sit and do something that I really enjoyed. And it was, I think I I reviewed a jay Shetty podcast, and it was just, you know, trying to reflect on how it was relevant for my life and, and then just wrote a few other bits and pieces. And it just was just absolutely phenomenal. But I think as well, I did. You know, I did want to sort of come across as someone who had it all together as well, you know, I did it I very much because my mental health isolated myself from thin friends and extended family, I remember, we really didn't get out of the house very much at all. So yeah, fast forward that few years when I'd really started to get to know more about who I was as a mom and what brought me joy. That was when you're leaving into Esther, I really decided I really knew I needed to make sure that I had that creative practice, integrated and that I had spoken to people around me about what that could look like, just to Yeah, to really contribute to making sure I stayed mentally well, you know, regardless of what the birth was like that I was, you know, very sort of maintained that that wellness afterwards and I mean, SS birth was awesome. It was I felt incredibly powerful like after her birth, and I can't downplay how much of that additionally contributed to my mental health. Yeah, just not even remotely the same as the first one. But I think another really important thing was that Mitch and I So we were all we were living in our new house that he actually built, which was wonderful. So our kids get to say, Daddy built this house. So that's so lovely. But we, we let go of the things. So, you know, washing would pile up, but hey, they will clean, it was fine. I didn't need to go away. Maybe the dishwasher didn't go on, you know, toys stayed out, I let go of what we were talking before about, you know, perfectly curated Instagram feed I let go of that. I was like, that's not me. That's not gonna happen. Because we sort of stayed in our bubble a little bit. But we most definitely, we had meals already in the freezer ready to go. And, you know, I, I'd made sure that the only was still out of there, go out doing fun things with family a few days a week. So I just had that time with their star. And yeah, so I, I really intentionally looked at what state what kept me mentally well, and then incorporated that as best I could. But it didn't mean that I didn't have down moments and down days, and that's what I made sure I shared as well on on my Instagram, because I didn't want it to be this highlight reel of Yes, I'm fine all the time. I wanted it to be much more, you know, vulnerable and real. I guess. Just just more real, have that experience that? Yes, we will. We will have some incredible moments, but there will also be some challenging, challenging quotes as well. So yeah, I think those are probably the key things I did differently. But we talk about laughter and being silly. And that is something that it's, it's incredibly important to me to incorporate fun into, you know, anything that that I do and going back to Dr. Sophie Brock, remember what I did. What sort of led me to her is that a friend? Just before her membership, she had a course. And I think it was deliberate. And a lot of yes, in part of liberate was you had to write your motherhood manifesto. And for me, the top thing I wrote and I still have it was around integrating fun and silliness into my day and my parenting. So yeah, that was that's been something, I guess leading into it. I wouldn't have thought about but as Mary said, you know, these little things that continue to happen and snowball. Yeah, so I guess that's in a snapshot, you know, in a really brief way things I might I did a bit differently. No, that's awesome. And I love that, that, that fun, because I feel like you can get bogged down so much in the day to day and the grind and you can actually forget, you know, to be light hearted and enjoy yourself and and and I think that also helps your relationship to with your partner, if you can actually attorney then you're not as grumpy as always, and you can have that, you know, that fun that you would have had before you had the kids? I guess you reminded of that. Yeah, well, we actually the other week, my mom had them both of ours for the full day, a full day, which had not happened outside of you know, having to work. And I said to me it we can like look at each other, and like talk to each other. And it was so it was so funny. We watch movies, we went and had lunch and wine and then we come back and watch more movies. That is awesome. Yeah, so it was just it was wonderful because I mean we can sometimes forget in the busyness and you know the depletion sometimes of it to to nurture those relations off. Absolutely I mean I've I've done it many times so it was lovely to just go oh yes hello Yeah, it's easy to take each other for granted this for sure. Mary I want to come back to something you've said a couple of times and I've got to jump on it now about mom guilt. How do you feel about it now? After you know you shared your experience about not feeling like you could have a shower or and that sort of stuff? What What are your thoughts on it in these days? Oh, entirely, entirely different. So I mean, I still feel it occasionally. Sometimes, I think it's inevitable that we'll feel it to some extent, just the same way, I believe dads would feel guilty about something as well, just the normal sort of human experience of feeling guilt. But in terms of actually being a mom and taking that time for myself, no. So I guess it's twofold. I haven't done a lot of that conditioning around what I'm allowed to do, or whatever, you know, and what will make me feel good. And I've also communicated to hubby very explicitly. And I mean, like, very explicitly, all Mary would have been that person that sort of didn't communicate it properly, and then kind of let it fester in the background, and then went quiet or eventually flew off the handle, and he would have no idea what I was upset about, or what was going on. And so I guess the teaching skills coming up, like very explicit and direct of when you come home sometimes and I'm fed up and I've had a day, I just, I'm going to take half an hour, and I don't, I don't want to feel guilty about it. I don't want to feel bad about it. I just need you to take her and just do what you need to do. And I will repeat when I feel like I will reappear when I'm more than ready. And yeah, no, I don't feel guilty about that at all. Because I'm with my daughter still sort of 24/7 She's not in any type of care. Again, as you can hear she's back again with her animals and just wanting to make an appearance in our podcast. Because I am with her all the time. I think it goes back together those little moments that I can get and finding. Like finding things we both enjoy doing, right? Like I love going up to the lookout around my area just because it's peaceful, and I enjoy it. And she loves it. She's kind of plotted around or to the birds. And I think so make it a priority to go. Yeah, well, we can go up to the lookout and we can spend time together there. And I don't need to feel guilty about like, no, everybody's getting their needs met. Right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think a lot about how we can create Win Win situations as well. It's not always going to be the case. Of course, I go to many a library, dance class and art class and playing groups and gymnastics today. Actually, I can make it a priority to go. Yeah, I can talk to mums there. And I can still make it an enjoyable experience for me as well. Yeah, no, I don't, I don't feel as guilty. I say no, a lot more. My family lives in Sydney. So sometimes have you will want to go see in laws on like me, I'm actually not going to come today, you take it out, you take home and you're gonna have a great time. And I don't have to feel bad about that. I don't need to be everywhere, all the time. Because my risk matters. I explained it to a friend the other day as I know what it feels like to have a rattling nervous system constantly. So when it's rattling, and once you recognize how to calm that and feel at peace, you can't you can't go back I accept nothing less essentially. So the guilt kind of dissolved with that. Yeah, over time, essentially kind of dissolved, I think on its own. Because I realized I was a better mom, a better wife a better person when I was taking care of those things. So why should I feel guilty about that's a positive? Absolutely. I'm just trying to do a podcast with a three year old would have brought me incredible, like anxiety years ago, but now I find him just roll with the punches. Yeah, that's such my role model marry with that, I mean, so many times with us working together. Because I guess I feel, you know, you've got that still within me and it's dissolving, but you know, that that sort of people pleasing that, you know, validation, like and wanting to move things quickly. Yeah. Mary has been so wonderful at just helping me take a breath. And, you know, not move faster than we need to and just, you know, what, it's fine that doesn't need to be done today. And so, even though you know, I understand some of that, you know, the theory understood it theoretically, about you know, how to come on over system and, and I'm relatively okay with it. I still sometimes need that prompt of, hey, how about we just take a breath and let's just push this back. But I will say on the flip side, Jesse goes fast and I go slower, as in not fast in a bad way. But we've probably we meet beautifully in the middle so I really need her to give me a bit of a kick. It's been so perfectly. It's been very complimentary as an IT because your mirror will be like, Oh, look, how about we consider x y Zed. And that's been a very crucial element to, you know, maybe the story or what we're doing. But if I'd wanted to speed on past that, it wouldn't have been addressed in a way that gave it the most kind of meaning and impact. Yeah, so, yeah, we've needed each other. And I mean, there's been some times to when, you know, we've wanted to consider something. And I said, Oh, no, no, excellent. You know, let's go. And then we have, but we've needed both to be able to bring this project to you to where it is. So yeah, we perfectly complement each other. Really, it sounds amazing. Isn't it funny hate people, you just meet people in your life like that, like just the randomness of everything that's had to happen to get you to get the point where you're at? It's just, I love stuff like that. Yes, absolutely. I mean, yeah, within, like, straightaway, Mary and Mitch, were just, you know, giggling with each other. And because he's very cheeky, and Mary is totally on board that train. So, you know, like, they were bouncing off each other. And our kids were playing wonderfully, but because we have similar similar parenting values, like we could perfectly support them in whatever they were feeling in any moment. So it was, it was easy for that reason, as well, which is sometimes half the battle with Yeah, that's the how to search for it. parenting styles are afflicting it can be tricky. You know, like everyone's doing the best they can. So yes, I absolutely acknowledge that. But it was yes, it was very useful. But yes, it was a random series of events. Yeah. No, love it. I just love it. So where are you? At? what point are you at with the book at the moment? Oh, do you want to talk about that America? I'm being doctor at the same time because I was multitasking Mark. I'm a vet. I'm helping some animals here. Do they seem to be a yes. At all? Um, yeah. So basically, we have an illustrator over in the US who is very hard on working on our storyboard. We've sort of finalized that, essentially. And she's got sketches. So it's so interesting getting set the updates, and you realize what she's done a few more pages and the words that we've said, and the description we've given her actually come until it's real. So yeah, so we're still hoping for an end of June release. And I think we're on track with that. But also open to the fact that, you know, if it pushes out to July, we're okay with that as well. But yeah, it's just a lot of back and forth with the illustrator now. So the thing is, I sometimes feel sorry for our Illustrator, because she's incredibly patient, and we throw a lot at her, we really do. Traditionally, you know, if you were to because we're self publishing, if you were to actually get a published, you would send a manuscript, they would essentially choose an illustrator, your book would appear illustrated. But yeah, we have very big ideas of what could be on each page, we just can't actually bring it to life ourselves. So you're trying to get her to kind of understand that has been like a journey. And you know, it's hard when you got something in your head, and you're trying to really explain it, but she's, she's doing beautifully with that. So we're um, yeah, I think I feel like we're on track. She's kind of really pushing along now. Yeah. We're just sort of thinking about what the front cover should be. We're going back and forth. But that's starting to make more sense. And then, yeah, we have, we had run our Kickstarter campaign back in November to December of last year, and raise what we raised $8,000 For our book to be published. So very interesting. You Yeah, so we kind of ran this thinking, oh, yeah, we'll get some support. Like, we know, we've got some people out there that want to see this book come to life. But then we got an incredible amount of support and managed to fund it through that. So yeah, there's people with some pre orders and things like that. And we just kept sort of slowly pushing the message, but Jesse does work as well. I've got Missy with you do it in the pockets of time. Yeah. But we could be doing more maybe. But I don't know. We're just sort of doing it at our own pace, you know, and it's all sort of making sense like Jesse said, like if we had persevered and tried to get this book out like already or even last year or something. I just, it might not have had the depth and the layers to it, as it has an Yeah, so we're just we're just sort of doing our thing. And I'm excited to hold it in my hands is a big part of me that thinks is not real. It's real. It's real. It's happening. I've seen the storyboard and I think, yeah, that's us, like, this is somebody else. We, we are doing this, we just need to hold it first. Yeah. But there's been so many beautiful moments to it. Because Mary and I have spoken so much, it's, we will be so excited to hold it. But we have had so much fun, doing basically every step of the process, you know, from coming up with a manuscript to starting to share online to spark October to putting together a Kickstarter, which is a feat in itself. And then to having that actually be successful. I think we were will be one or two days out from the deadline. And we will basically refresh it. You know, I was at home for the day doing, you know, parenting, but always like refreshing it. And this donation come in, that was the exact amount we needed to kick it over. And I was like, grab the phone call Mary. She said she's looking at going, you must have fun. Anyway, it was just that in itself means. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And I love that you guys, you're not, you're not pushing it. Like, it's a thing that happens. As a you know, what's the word in conjunction with your life, like it fits into your life? So then hopefully, it doesn't cause you know, extra stress or, you know, because, yeah, we've all got that already. So, you know, it's just something enjoyable. And, you know, yeah, keeps you're gonna cut that out. But oh, no, I say, um, all the time. But yeah, it's a thing that you guys can experience and enjoy and look back on that the process was enjoyable, you know? Yeah. And that, for me, it's always it's very important. I have to, it's not just the outcome that I need to be, you know, in love with, it's the process of getting to that outcome. The act in itself has to bring me joy felt really to be to be worth it. At the other end, so, yeah, because I guess, you know, for me, it's your being able to access our creativity. You know, it is it's a stress relief. And but I think, though, too, it doesn't always owe us anything, you know, in this moment, it's bringing me joy, it doesn't necessarily have to have that tangible, tangible outcome. I don't, it's so interesting to think how many hours we would have spent on it, and I would do it again, I wouldn't get Yeah, my husband actually said that you're saying is how many hours? Do you think you spent? I said, I don't know. I mean, I was doing it with a with a tablet tucked under my arm. You know, I'm a night owl Jesse's an early riser. So I would be sending stuff in a Canva document. She'd get it at 5am and reply and that sort of that we worked it. But yeah, he asked that any any made this joke lots of you know, you can be famous with this book. I said, my intention? Yeah, sorry, guys. I have no intention of being I don't want to be famous. In fact, if I just have one man that reads it and goes, that's a little bit better. And it reminded me that, you know, I do matter now, like I can focus my thoughts on life. Like, I'm winning. And it's so cliche to say it that way, but that genuinely is how we're thinking about it. Like, we're not trying to get anything from it. It's not it's just, it's just an expression wrapped up in a picture book. For others to enjoy. And that's it. It's like a see, like, for me to him. Finley doesn't really care now too much. But one day, I'm sure both of them will know more. And I mean, for me to just be able to, you know, give that to my children. What's legacy? See, you know, so exactly what Mary said, you know, for just even if one mom reads it and resonates with it, and maybe feels empowered to make some changes in her life or ask for what she wants or needs, and then for our children to me, maybe. Yeah, you know, I will not see coming back to what I was saying before my children who know me absolutely, yes. Oh, I love it. I love it. It's so exciting. Good on you girls. I'm really excited for it. Sorry, we have to be best place for people to follow along. And you mentioned about pre orders. Can people pre order or is that was that just on the Kickstarter thing. We'll we've just got to sought that out. So yeah, we're, we're in the process of making sure that people can can do that ahead of time. But we are having the most fun over on our Instagram we marry out at the mom who found her sparkle, so it's just our joint one. We do things on our separate ones and often posted there as well. And we pop up a lot sometimes, although we might disappear for a little while, then we pop up. Again, we this is how we're rolling with it. But yeah, the mummy found a sparkle is where you find everything book related, essentially. Excellent. I'll put a hyperlink in the show notes so people can click along and follow the journey. Oh, that's right. It's so lovely to have you both on today. Thank you so much for having me. And unmuting every. It's, it's been wonderful. That's been great. And all the best with it. I really hope it's it's, I don't know that feeling when you do get it in your hands. It's like this amazing moment for you both, I think. Yeah, wonderful. And I will definitely be getting a copy of myself. So I think adding it to my collection of spoken to people on the podcast is pretty cool. You would have a wonderful collection of things based on the beautiful conversations. You've had lots of lovely books. I'm very, very fortunate actually, this feels like a sort of an off side of like an unexpected side of talking to lots of people is is I have just collected lots of amazing books. Dream actually. So yeah, so we're looking forward to add your book tour at some point in the very near future. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Lyss Morton US event florist, podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep72 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Lyss Morton is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey USA and a mum of 2. 2 years ago Lyss and her husband began a floral design business, doing weddings and events, and floral preservation. Lyss credits her love for flowers to her grandmother. Lyss describes herself as multi passionate, and a serial entrepreneur. She produces 2 podcasts, The Making Mommy Moves podcast and The Power Couple podcast, has a digital production company called Mama Media and another florist related business. Lyss is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting, people pleasing, our old favourite mum guilt and cultural role modelling. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and birth trauma** Connect with Lyss - website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Liz Morton. Liz is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey in the USA and a mom of two. Two years ago Listen, her husband began a floral design business doing weddings and events and floral preservation. Liz credits her love of flowers to her grandmother. She describes herself as multi passionate and a serial entrepreneur. This produces two podcasts, the making mommy moves podcast, and the power couple podcast with her husband. She has a digital production company called mama media, and another floral related business. Lisa is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting people pleasing our perennial favorite mom guilt, and cultural role modeling. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression, and birth trauma. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which is listed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM J, which is my new age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome to the podcast. Listen, that's really lovely to have you and to meet you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I appreciate you having me on your show. Oh, no worries at all. Now, we're about to you based. I'm in New Jersey, over across the big pond. Yeah. Yeah. Whereabouts is that in America? We're on the east coast. So right around your Pennsylvania. tri state area. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I can visualize where that is. It's good. Yeah. And you're coming into what you call it fall over there. Do we call it autumn here? Yeah, it hit us in the face a couple of weeks ago. We have a garden that we grow in all the time. And we're like right on the cusp of everything dying. Yeah, that changes seasons. Always fun. Where where are the other side? We're coming into summer like we're in spring and everything starting to grow like crazy. And all the weeds are coming up because it's raining and feet of warmth. And yeah, I feel like I'm just forever picking waves out of a garden now. A good time of year though. Ah, do you see love say Oh, my roses have come out now. So it's it's good. Like, like this time of year? You do lots of different things, don't you but your use? Did you say am I right in saying you started out as a florist? Is that right? Yeah. Um, well, I'll give you a little bit of a backstory. I wasn't always a florist. I started as a medical biller in a chiropractic office for about 10 years of my life. And I was like, I hate this. So I started working with flowers. And I became an event florist and now we serve events all throughout New Jersey and the surrounding area, bringing weddings to life primarily for couples. And how long have you been doing that for about two years? Yes. So no, I'm, but we went. We grew really quickly in that time. Yeah. So do you do you source your flowers or do you grow a lot yourself? Or do both? Yeah, we started primarily growing our own flowers. And then it was time management wise. We couldn't with everything that we were doing for the events and planning and meeting send everything, we didn't have the time to commit to growing everything ourselves. So we like to say that we work some of our garden and grown blooms into their designs. But we actually are sourcing and then like in her bridal bouquet will incorporate some of our envelopes. Awesome. That'd be really fun. One of my favorites. My wedding was was picking out my flowers. I really enjoyed that part of it. And I reckon I spent, like, percentage wise, I spent a pretty high percent on my flowers because like, I just love them. I just wanted them to be like, really big. Yes. Oh, so what's, what are the flowers at the moment over there that a lot? Or do you buy them like from people that grow them all year round, like the stuff that's particularly in season at the moment. Right now we're finishing out the season locally, there are a couple of growers that have some greenhouses that were able to get stuff. But right now, like we're getting the end of the dahlia is for santha mums. And then like anything that is grown in the greenhouse is amazing. But we primarily sourced from other wholesalers that import flowers from, you know, the Ecuador and South America and other places like that some California stuff. So primarily, we're integrating the local flowers in with the overseas stuff. Yeah, cool. Oh, that's awesome. What made you go into flowers, we've been we've always been a gardener or just thought it would be fun to do for if I give a lot of the credit to my grandma, because she had the most amazing garden and she still does, it's, it takes up her entire backyard. And it's like on a nice beautiful creek. So it just looks like it's meant to be there. So I I blame her for my flower bug that I have. Um, but I really like I can't say that like, they were my go to thing. I loved getting flowers. And then when I wanted to create my own business, I was like, what brings me joy. And I love flowers. There was like, let's start that. And I just took every workshop and every course that I could find on the topic and dug in. Yeah. Well, that's great. Good news. And you say wait, I'm guessing that's your your husband and you work together? Yes. Yeah, we're we're good partnership. Okay, ego right together, you don't have to renew legally disagree with anything awesome. You also do podcasting, and lots of other different things. So can you share with us? What else do you do that keeps you busy? Yeah, I'm thinking to say that I'm multi passionate, I've got a lot of different things that I have going on. So I'm in the process of writing my first book, I've got a podcast, it's called the making mommy moves show. I've got our floral design business where we do events. And then we also preserve flowers for our couples and anywhere in the US or that they're able to ship them. We had one come from Mexico, where we encase their flowers and resin or press designs. We've got another business where it's very, very niche specific, we help other event floors, clean up their events. At the end of the wedding, we help them collect all the rental items and any other decor that they have. And then something more recently that I started was it's called mama media. It's a digital like production company where we do like podcast editing and YouTube Editing and stuff like that. Hmm. There's a lot of different things going on. And yeah, multi passionate, that's a great way of describing it. So you just really like, like, like doing things you like being busy and being creative. Like, that's, that's what drives you. Yes, very much. Yeah. Yeah. People think it's a little crazy. But you know, when you have a knack for something, and you just I'm, I say that I'm a quickstart personality. So it's like I get an idea. And I have to jump on it. My husband and I were actually just talking about that this morning, because it's actually a little overwhelming at times, trying to manage it all, especially being a mom and everything else that we have going on his family. So we're trying to be more intentional about the things that we take on and limit the project so that we're able to actually follow through on them too. Huh, yeah, cuz that overwhelm is a big thing, isn't it? And then you get all the different things thrown at you family wise and children wise things are always jumping up and surprising. It's out of the blue. Exactly. Tell me more about your book, what is the Book about? So I'm reading my book about different business processes as a wedding florist. I'm working with Jake Calper. Like he's doing a fun, like challenge. So every day for 90 days, we're working on a book together. And it's just an hour a day that I'm dedicating to the process. And it's been really enlightening, because he just wants you to just do it and get it done. So I'm following his framework in order to do it. Because you know, as moms and business owners, we have very little time, or at least it feels that way. So I'm just trying to break it down into smaller pieces. And it's nonfiction obviously. And I'm just trying to get the parts one done and out and make it mean something and also be helpful to other business owners and mompreneurs. And then I'm gonna move on to my next one. Yeah. So if you got, you've got your idea for you to explore, I've already got a couple of them. And it was like difficult for me to choose one. So this one is about business ownership. And then I have one that I want to like write about with my mom and like our relationship together. I've got a couple different ideas like it works. Well, that's great. So you say you, you can eat just an hour a day? Do you ever find that you just cannot get the hour in? Or is that something that you make sure you definitely do every day no matter what. I give myself some grace. So especially as a wedding florist, like we're just getting out of our peak wedding season, there were some weeks that we had four weddings in the weekend that we're trying to get out the door and servants. Obviously, they're our priority next to my kids. So it's like we're trying to make sure that they're taken care of that our contracts are fulfilled. And that's taken care of. So I am giving myself some grace if for some reason I am too busy dividend. What about your podcast? Tell us a little bit more about that. Yes, so it's called the making mommy move show. And it's primarily a come along with me, because we don't have it all figured out. But we want to be able to document the journey as we create our we have a lot of big goals that we're working towards. So one of them is financial freedom. Another is like fitness and health and just general wellness and happiness. So we want to be able to be an inspiration for other moms to live the life they want to live. Because I know too many of the ones that I grew up around, just sacrifice their life, to work the nine to five and for their kids. And it's like you can have it too. Like you can have your cake and eat it too in the sense that you can live the life that you want. So we created it as a come along with me. I share different stories and strategies and tips and just milestones in our life as we're learning different things through business ownership. But as a mom, I just want it to be really inspiring and helpful. And all the things. Yes. How long have you been doing that for now works? So not a long time. Yeah. And it's great. It all really heavy. I started off with a three time a week podcast schedule, and we're just now dropping down to once a week because it's a lot of demand. Yeah, as you know. Yes. Do you and you record like you visually record you a lot of things as well for Instagram I've seen. So that's another sort of element to it as well. Yeah, we set up the camera and the microphone, and I put it on YouTube, the different podcast platforms and then we use it for Instagram and Tiktok and things like that. I'm trying to make sure that it's more curated for the different platforms. I just today I recorded a whole bunch of videos for YouTube in particular so that it's because you know every platform is specific to their own. I want to say like audience and the way that that people interpret the information. So yeah, I'm trying to be more intentional about that too. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like the way people consume things on different platforms. You is very different. I actually thought it was quite funny. A comedian made a made a reel about people coming in for like a it was like an audition. And they were saying they were presenting the way they talk and they're like, right you go to YouTube and the next one coming up are your for Tik Tok. Like, it was quite funny the way it happened, but they are very different, aren't they? Yeah, like, I've been watching a lot of different content creators obviously. And like seeing the way that they put things out into the world. And it's like, third priority. So some people prioritize YouTube and some people prioritize their blogs or Tik Tok or Instagram. And I'm feeling like YouTube is actually like a good place for me. So it's like helping me to be more intentional about where I put my time and like my focus. So it's like, YouTube is growing the quickest. So it's like, oh, I need to put more of my effort there. As opposed to Instagram that's really slow. So it's like really interesting to think about that too, yeah. So you've mentioned your kids a couple of times being a mom, can you share a little bit about your children? Yeah, I've got two little girls. My oldest is two and a half. And my youngest is going to be one next week or the week after the seventh. So it's been fine with them. I had my second when I just started my business, we had a wedding do a contract. It was supposed to be two days after my due date. And I ended up like wheeling the heck out of that girl coming sooner to keep 13 days early. And tell because it's like you booked a wedding two days after your due date. And it's like, I had faith that God was gonna let me fulfill the event. He wouldn't let me book it if I couldn't do it. Oh, did say you had a 13 days early. So that means you were up and about doing this waiting? Oh, my gosh, how did that go? It worked perfectly. It was fairly small. So I had like backup plans in place, like just in case I was in the hospital or something. But it worked out? Well. I'm glad that it wasn't any bigger than it was because you know, postpartum is difficult. And fulfilling. And event after that was not not exactly fun. But it wasn't bad either. Working up to that point was difficult. I worked until 39 weeks like doing weddings and freelancing with other florists and there was one venue in particular that I was going into and big ol belly in front of me. And the chairs were like this close together. And I can't squeeze through them. It was respond. Did so it was always Daisy having fun. Doing it. Yeah. Trying to carry stuff and they don't want you to carry anything because you're nine months pregnant. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ah, hey, good. But obviously, you've got your support. If your husband in the business site, you're able to sort of be be flexible with things like that. He's such a tremendous help but everything. Lately I've been trying to teach him designing so he's able to actually jump in if I need him helping processing all over flowers to get them prepped to design. helping deliver. Yeah, they help in every way. And like not just that but also like with the kids being able to watch them when I have to go out or having some other family or friends or babysitters helped. Hmm, yeah, that's definitely the supports a massive thing, isn't it? Having people around you? Yeah, makes it really tricky. If you don't have that doesn't that I've spoken to quite a few people on the show that are just like away from their family for whatever reason, and you sort of got to create create your family then I suppose for one of a better word to find the people. Yeah. So yeah, I'm really fortunate. I still live in the town that I was born in and my sister lives around the corner. My mum lives up the road and it's like, I've got him here. If I need him. It's really, really lucky. You need it, you really can't do it without the support system. That's for sure. In terms of then sort of the juggling that goes on, how do you sort of manage? Like your children are still quite young? How do you sort of? Is it a lot of help from others to make it happen? Or how do you sort of juggle everything? Question. So during the week, they're in daycare, I can't live without daycare, it's like, every day, like, Thank goodness for it. And then a lot of late nights. So we try to prioritize and maximize or our family time that we do have. So from five to eight, we have our family time we do dinner, we do baps some quality, like book times, stuff like that, and then we put them down for bed. And then it's usually like eight to 11 is crunch time for whatever we need to make happen. So whether that's designing for an event, or working on a computer, or meetings, stuff like that. Yeah, cuz that's thing you've actually got to meet with your clients, I suppose. Do you do a lot of that? It does that work in the day or you do meet people have an evening as well. Usually, it's in the evening, because most of the people work that we're working with. So they don't typically get out of work or have the time to that they're both home until seven, you know, somewhere in there. So I'll you do accommodate the late night meetings. I prefer when they happen during the day and the girls are at school. But yeah, I'll make it happen for them. Yeah. Oh, that's good. So I want to go back to when when you first had had your first daughter, did you sort of find did you have sort of an identity shift of how you saw yourself, and how that sort of changed when you became a mom, I had a really bad postpartum depression with my first. And I actually want to call it like a disassociation, because I was not attached to her. Going through my first, like, postpartum experience, I had a really traumatic delivery with her. And after I got really fit, like in the gym, like I prioritize that, and I really went through a time that I wasn't connected to her. So I have a different experience with her than I do with my second one. So it's like hard to say like in that sense, but throughout, I want to say like the first six months of our life together, I became more attached to her. And obviously, we have a really close relationship now. But as a mom, it was interesting, because I felt unattached, like, I still felt like myself. So I can't really say I felt like I had gone through this metamorphosis of like, shifts and personality change. But with my second and getting pregnant with my second, I really felt it. Hmm. So the way that you sort of, I guess, I had postnatal depression with both my kids. So I can definitely relate to what you're saying. And I guess that's the thing, it does make it hard to sort of talk about that identity. Because you feel so different anyway, like, because you're experiencing these mental health issues. And I guess, maybe going to your second daughter, how did you sort of when you had your second daughter, did you experience the same sort of postnatal depression or was everything different that time it was really different the second time, and I kind of associated more with starting my business like I felt the build. So it was a different kind of feeling like with my first I was still working as a full time mom and working full time. So I didn't feel like I had the same flexibility I didn't work my second I was able to snuggle up with her. And I was working on my computer and breastfeeding her at the same time. So I was still able to have like that skin to skin contact and everything up until she went to daycare when she was like five months old. Whereas with my first like immediately from the get go, she was in daycare with my mom with anybody that could watch her I was working full time. So I guess I didn't have the same kind of connecting experience with her. And also that affected our relationship and the way that my mental health was and everything else. Yeah, it's interesting, like, oh, yeah, no, thank you for sharing that because it's interesting. I've spoken to some mums who had postnatal depression first or second, or both, or like it's just there doesn't seem to be any consistency to it. Like when I had mine quite bad with my fist. So then the doctors were like, sort of put like, a red flag to me, but they had on all my files, you know, watch out for this one sort of thing, you know, which was good because when it did happen, you know, the ball moves really quickly and all the care that I needed came really quickly. But then yeah, I've spoken to some people who had it with their first didn't have on their second or didn't have with their first head it was like they doesn't seem to be any, you know, rhyme or reason like it. And I sort of had talked to my I talked myself into the fact like, there's seven years between my kids. And I thought, you know, I'm seven years older, I'm more mature, I've worked in childcare. Now I know, physically how to look after a child. And I kept thinking, I'm gonna be fine. This isn't gonna happen, you know, but then actually happened worse the second time and the first time. So it's like, so bizarre. It really is. And it's like, I went through so many mental changes, just evolving as a person and a business owner and everything that I associated with that, but maybe it could just be a different experience, just hormonal wise, like you're saying, like seven years older, and it's hard to say exactly why it happens the way that it does. Oh, my gosh, it is It is bizarre. Like it's just odd. And I wish it didn't happen to any of us. But it's just one of those weird things. And I feel like I've never quite been the same sense. I don't know. Now that I'm getting older, my hormones are changing more. I don't know. I mean, I still feel like me, but I just feel like I haven't quite gotten back to how it was before. I don't know. It's really weird, but never go back, either. Like, you've got so many new experiences now, like having been through childbirth twice, and the postpartum experience twice and everything in between. You'll never go back. Which I guess is a good thing. Yeah. It's a strange thing isn't that happens to us? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was named. One of the big topics I like to talk about with my moms is this concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because I have spoken to moms who didn't even know what it was and had to google it. And I reckon that's awesome. That's how we should all be. But unfortunately, most of us, what's your sort of take on that whole topic? Oh, I feel guilty about everything that I do. I'm guilty. If I'm not being productive, I'm guilty. If I'm not spending enough time with them. I'm guilty. If I am not sleeping enough, I'm guilty. If I'm not eating right, I'm guilty of I'm prioritizing the wrong things. I'm just a big ball of guilt in every way, shape and form. So I'm curious to hear like what you have to say about it, and how you try to overcome it. Like with me, I just remind myself of what I'm working toward, and get myself grace as best as I can. Hmm. Yeah, I think that acceptance is a really big thing. And that's what I'm finding. It's interesting, the people that I've spoken to one in particular comes to mind that that did not even know what it was, which was brilliant. I think it was something to do with, she was basically in this little bubble, where she hadn't been around a lot of people with children, and wasn't sort of all over social media, looking at all things to do with children. And I think a lot of it comes what will in certainly in my experience of people I've spoken to, I'm not saying this is right for everybody, but the expectations that we feel from the outside world to behave a certain way or to do a certain thing or to not do a certain thing. And then that pressure that comes on us, is what sort of manifests neck yoke, because I don't know, there's just so many outside, outside forces with all this conflicting information, like I actually saw a really funny reel the other day about was like a new mom. And she was saying, I can't even think what they were. But it was things like don't hold your baby too much. But make sure you have a lot of skin to skin contact. But don't feed them too much. But make sure that they get enough food, like it was just this constant back and forth and the mums like what am I supposed to do? And I think you're right, that that sort of giving yourself grace and acceptance and in the moment feeling like I'm doing all that I can right now. And then try not to beat yourself up about later, which is so easier said than done, but it's just a horrible thing. And I wish it didn't exist. I wish no one had to go through it, too. I think you're right about the Instagram and like the social media aspect of it too. Because we have this new way to compare ourselves to like what other people look like they're doing as opposed to what we should be doing or comparing what they're what they have done. going on with their kids, because we don't know, we only see the highlight reel on Instagram. So it's like somebody else might look like they're in the gym all the time and spending time with their kids and having the best of everything. They probably have a nanny or somebody living in the house that's able to take care of the kids. Like you're not seeing it all. Yeah, that's so the best. You have to just give yourself grace, knowing what you're living through and your situation and the way that you're dealing with things when it's like you can do that season. We can just do that and not, and the judgment that I was talking to a mom the other day, about that mums and women were really, only if we're really good at what we're really bad at. I can't work out the way to say it, but we judge each other a lot. Like we're like the number one worst judges of each other. We need to know if we could just stop there. Yeah. But I think a lot of that also might come from guilt too, is that, you know, if you see someone doing something and you think, Oh, bloody hell, and then you think, wow, I should be doing that. You know, it's all that that internalized stuff. Again, you are you're judging them because you're not doing it or whatever it is. I'm really bad at that. I'll see something that looks like I should be doing it. And I get bad that they're doing and I'm not, or feeling like I should be further along in my journey. And it's like I just started so I can't get mad at it. Yeah, yeah. But I think you're right about this, this Instagram and the socials. It's like, people will only show you what they want you to say they're not going to show you all the bad stuff that's happened that day, or the how hard it was to get your kid to eat breakfast and then get them in the car to go wherever it like. Yes. But I feel like they're having. Yeah, yeah. It's, but yeah, I feel like people are getting better at sharing things. And I'm trying to change the people that I follow. So that the people that resonate with me more, not the people that I feel challenged by I suppose, if that makes sense. Yeah, surrounding yourself with positive, the positive stuff. I've been getting better at that, too. I've been restricting a lot of accounts that so I'm not like unfriending them or unfollowing them, but I'm not seeing their stuff purposefully. Cuz it either makes me mad or makes me feel guilty or something negative that I shouldn't be feeling. And it's just preventing me from working the way that I should be. Hmm, that's a really good point. And actually, that that point has come up, I reckon in the last two or three podcast chats that I've had that about just, you know, surrounding yourself with the people that make you feel good. Like, yeah, like, like, you know, in real life we do. So why not do it? You know, in a socialist, yeah, it's funny, because I find that even, I have to restrict, like, some friends and family because like, I'll see them and like, hold myself to like a new level of criticism, or guilts. Or, however I'm interpreting it, and then like, I can't be looking at this all the time, just because it makes me feel like I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, or it's bad or something. Yeah, those things that trigger Yeah, it's like, you know, remove them. And that's true, even if it is family, you know, or friends, it's, we're still allowed to sort of set the boundaries and say, you know, I don't need to consume this, because it's going to affect me in a certain way. I think that's really powerful. Because I feel like in the past, we sort of have felt like, because their family, we've got to accept just everything that they do to us their behaviors. I feel like people are starting to sort of go, oh, actually, that's not okay. Even though, you know, you're my sister, or you're my mom or whatever. That That doesn't work. For me. That's a pretty powerful thing, isn't it? Very, very powerful. And to have the emotional intelligence to say, You know what, this is a little toxic or a little triggering for me. So I'm just going to remove myself from the situation and go from there. Yeah, that's really good. I think. Yeah. I don't know. Certainly the people I'm following. It's like, you know, that that emotional intelligence that and feeling like you have permission to do things? Like I don't know, you've always sort of feel like, is it okay for me to say to such and such that I don't want to do that, you know, that. That people pleasing sort of got to say yes to everything. I feel like yeah, people that I follow. I do follow a lot of psychologists to actually that's where this is going rather, you know, you are allowed to say that you don't have to please everybody. Thank you say that with like, yes to everything because I'm really bad people pleaser, at least I'm getting better at it. And for the holidays all the time, everybody would want us over their house. So We'd be trying to go to four or five different houses in the course of Christmas. And it's like that's not enjoyable like to just go from house to house. Yeah. So it's like, either had them on different days, or like, Come to us, because now we have kids, and then she's difficult to go from, you know, breakfast to late breakfast to brunch, to lunch to dinner, an early dinner, late dinners next. Bedtime is somewhere in the middle. Yeah, that's the thing. And you like the age of your girl. So probably still napping is like, how do you even, you know, fit that in? Yeah, but that's the thing too, I think. Yeah, for years are a family like, I'm lucky because everyone's in the town. And we all just gather at one point. But yeah, I've heard lots of stories of people of these, because we've got lots of little towns all around our big town, like little sort of out in the countryside. And people would be going from here to there to their to their similar to your story. Now, just think, God, that wouldn't be a very nice day, you know, it wouldn't be a very enjoyable day. And they'd say things like, you know, the kids get their presents, but then they can't play with them, because they've got to rush off to the next place. And you think it sort of takes all of that? What it's supposed to be about it takes all of that away. And you're right, why can't do it on another day, like, you know, make it a boxing? Or do you have Boxing Day over there to call it that? You know, yeah, we have like the day after Christmas is like a relaxing day, you're supposed to we, most times there's a cricket match on. It's like this tradition, the Boxing Day test match. So everyone like, relaxes in front of the telly and watches the cricket and has a drink because it's summer here. So it's all very, you know, laid back. So that's thing why not doing on the next day, like, you know, why does that have to be this pressure just for this one? Day? Yeah, that's like the thing, like, both my husband and I, like both of our parents were divorced. So it's like, we were having like, four just with them. And then it was the extended family and, you know, siblings wanting to get together in the morning to open gifts and then do dinner later. It's like, we're seeing you already, like agree don't need to do it twice. You know? Yeah. So if anyone's listening to this, if this is triggering for you, this might really to say actually, no, I want to do it this way. Or, you know, have a chat here from this time to that time, and you're welcome to stop by. Yeah, that's a great way of saying it. Yeah. And it's not, it's not like you're saying, we don't want to see you like it's not a bad. You know, it's like just to shuffle things to make it work. And I mean, other people probably feeling the same way too, you know? So by starting the conversation, you might be taking the pressure off someone else to go Oh, thank God, I've been wanting to say this, you know? Yes, 100%. That's really cool. I love it that conversation with. Growing up as a kid, did you, I mean, a lot of the moms I speak to were of the same sort of age roughly. I have had a couple of grandmas on. And that's been really interesting, too. But the way that the way that we were parented has changed a lot. I feel like I mean, culturally in Australia, certainly. And I'm sort of guessing similarly, in the US. What sort of role modeling did you have for being a mum, and the way that you've decided to parent your children? Interesting? Um, I? Oh, tough question. My mom worked all the time. So I can't really say that she was like, super involved. Like when she was really like, when we were young, I guess she was a stay at home mom for a while. But when my parents and I were in a rough relationship, so she worked pretty much around the clock. And we were with my grandparents most of the time. So essentially, my grandmother raised me. I guess, as far as like parenting styles, I have a lot of the same kind of styles that they do. Some things have evolved. Like, we don't force them to eat everything on their plate, like I was forced to, because I'm like, she's a toddler and she's not hungry. She'll eat when she's hungry. So she snaps and that's the way that she eats and the pediatrician have told us the same thing like to just let her you know, she's gonna go through phases. My mom was a big fast food mom, like I don't do that. Stuff like that. Yeah, I feel like we're sort of listening to our children a bit more like, like that example of, you know, the parents saying you have to eat this. And it's like, I remember as a kid, just shoveling the ends of my tea into my mouth and just feeling like seek just so full of food. It's like, we've sort of got to the point where we Going well, actually, I think children are capable of deciding when they're full, you know, obviously you want them to try and, you know, eat more than one bead of toast or whatever, you know, you want them to, to try encourage them. But, you know, I think this that sort of, for me, at least, I don't know if it did, or it didn't, but might have been something to do with the relationship that I now have with food, that I've got to eat everything, you know, we don't know what Yes, what little seeds are being planted in little people's brains when we're doing these behaviors, and we're putting our, our judgment now behaviors onto them. 100% I'm on a similar note, like, trying to, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly like a well rounded eater, she ate a lot of SP foods, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're gonna want to eat them, too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna want to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Hmm. And that's, that's really good point. Because that's thing if they don't see things they're not, they're not even, you know, gonna, they're not gonna choose one day go, Oh, I'm just gonna eat some broccoli just for no reason. You know, it's, it's got to be a part of. Yeah, exactly. And you were talking earlier about, like, you know, eating well, and fitness. Is that something that you're you guys are conscious of. So that's really great that you're sort of encouraging that right from, you know, the beginning of their lives. Yeah, really trying. With the business and everything. It's honestly taken a bit of a back burn. But we've been recommitting ourselves. And it's really important to show them that this is a priority for us if it is for them to. Absolutely, yeah, that's so that's so important. And I think like, exercise just being a part of life, like you can just go for a walk anytime. And that's, you know, that it's not some big deal that can I just, it's just a normal part of life, that it just is what you do, you know, maybe not every day, depending how your day is going. But it's just there all the time. That makes sense. Yeah, that you don't have to make it a special. Like, you don't have to get up and go to the gym at 530 Every morning, like you could squeeze it in with a bike ride or make it fun, and a family activity or different ways to go. Do you feel like it's important to you, and I'm gonna say this in air quotes again, to be more than just a mum, because we're never just a mum, that Yeah, is that that's important to you to maintain who you are outside of your mothering role. Very important. Um, I never want to be just anybody. I want to be myself. And I, you know that I'm really ambitious. So I've got a lot of goals. So I can't imagine like just being a mom, I have to be me and fulfilling and successful. And I just have a lot of these deep rooted things that I need to fulfill myself. Where do you think that drive comes from? Is that was there anyone in your life that sort of role model that or is that just, that's just you. It's just me, it's many of you ask, like my mom or my grandma, they'll tell you that I have this number one syndrome that I have to be number one in everything. And it's funny because as a kid, it was true, I needed to be first in line, I needed to be the top of the attendance roster, I needed to be like, number one on the honor roll like all of those things. And I guess it still rings true, but in different ways like it's fueling to want to be and accomplish all of these things. So it's like I have a bucket list of stuff that I want to do before I die and set a good example for my kids and be this person. Hmm. Yeah. Can you share some of the other things that are on your bucket list? If that's appropriate? I haven't asked you this before. You Yeah, sure. Well, writing a book is obviously on the top of the list. I have places that I want to travel. I want to have some speaking opportunities, like I want to get on a TEDx stage or something fun like that, um, surround myself but some people that I consider like, I don't know if you have like bucket list people that you want to like have conversations with Yeah, couple things. Yeah, people that I keep annoying with emails to come on my podcast. And I never hear back from you, we'll keep trying. And like, that's the thing like this has got this experience, doing this sort of stuff has got me really good at just being rejected and not worrying about any more like to just go, no, oh, that's fine. Who's next on my list? You know, and not getting hung up about stuff. It's been a really good teaching experience for me to learn this stuff, you know? Well, it's like it boils down to, it's always going to be no, if you don't ask, yes, yes. Or no, like somebody might have an opening in the calendar, or they might actually be available that weekend. They, you know, whatever the situation is, like, the reason that they're saying no, probably has nothing to do with you. You know, it's probably that they have their kids baseball game that they actually are able to attend this weekend. So they want to go. And that's, I feel like that if you don't ask you don't know. And that, yeah, I've asked some awesome people that have come on, and I thought they would never come on, but it's like, Thank God ask because, you know, just, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? And that's the thing, too, like, I think we just we never know what's going on in other people's lives, like in any in anything, you know, and I think we sometimes can be really quick to judge a person's reaction and put it back onto ourselves. Where it's probably not about us at all, like you said, it's, it's something that in their lives or whatever. Yeah, like, as we know, like all of our lives, we're bound to rob ourselves. Like, I like to think of like Jenna Kutcher, a lot. I always hear that she's just says no to everything. And it's like, it has nothing to do with anybody else. It's just that she has like three priorities. And those are the priorities. So if it's not one of those three things, it's going to be no. And I feel that way about like, when I'm even asked to, let's say, like, over a friend's house or something. If it's, if I'm not feeling up to if my kids are not feeling good, like whatever it is, it's like it's gonna be no, if it doesn't feel any of those things. Hmm, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with saying that like, again, this boundary setting, looking after ourselves, not just saying yes, because we feel we feel bad if we say no. Yeah, well, then you feel guilty or resentful, or saying yes, if you didn't say no. And that's the worst is like saying yes. And not meaning it or wishing that you said no, or being mad that somebody isn't giving you something? Because you said yes. Because you said yes. You know, exactly. Yeah. It's like watching there, isn't there? Yeah, I have a good example to go along with that. One of my girlfriends is getting married. And I told her that I would do her wedding flowers. And I wished that I didn't say, and I'm feeling resentful now. Because it's like, I would rather not commit the time and my own finances to do it. And it's like a really generous gift. And I was like, Is this really like, Why did I say yes, and I'm going back and forth with it. And it's like, I need to just commit myself and I am going to commit myself because I agreed to it. But that's like a really good example of something that you should think, before you say yes. And try not to be resentful of the fact that you did. Because that's the thing isn't like, things can seem really good at the time. And then when you think about it, and you go, oh, like I've done that with singing gigs. And I've said yes to things because I thought, oh, yeah, that'll be fun. And then I thought, ah, but I have to rehearse and I have to learn these songs. And I'm, like, I'm, in my mind. I'm thinking of the gig. I'm thinking, Oh, that'd be awesome. But then I step back and go, Ah, crap, all this stuff that needs to happen to do that. And I think, ah, like, it's not just the thing. Yeah, everything else to go with it. So it's like, my friend's wedding is like Thanksgiving weekend, it's, so it's gonna be a pain in the neck to get flowers. And for her, it's gonna be I have another wedding the next day. So it's like, I'm gonna be adding more work to my load. And it's like, all these other things that make it a lot more difficult than just doing the thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I've gotten I think, I don't know if this is a bad thing to say. But the COVID Everything that happened with COVID actually gave me a time to think about like saying no more like I really enjoyed not rushing out because everything got canceled, all the gigs got canceled, which to start with was quite bad. And then I sort of went actually I'm enjoying not going out all the time now and I'm glad the pressures off because now I don't have to do this. And I know that obviously I'm not dismissing COVID at all like it's very bad a lot of people have have suffered because of it and economies and everything. But one good thing came out of it is it made me start saying no to things because I remembered how good it felt not doing things. Yes, I agree with that. And I agree wholeheartedly with that conversation. cuz, yes, COVID was awful for many people. But there were so many good things that also came out of it like my business, like, as a floral designer took off because of COVID. Because all of the other floors were booked. And there were so many delays so that I was able to actually do 50 Weddings last year and was my first year of business. So it's like, that shouldn't have been possible. But it was because of COVID. And, like you said, like enjoying the actual time, but you had to yourself because of it, we had that same kind of situation, like in 2020, that we were able to just enjoy ourselves and our little family. I actually enjoyed being not having visitors in the hospital when I gave birth, because I had two COVID babies. So it was like I enjoyed being able to actually just be the three of us and not worry about everyone in their brother coming in while I'm breastfeeding and stuff like that. Yeah, I think there was a good stuff. Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? Because I think that can that's another whole issue about people not having boundaries, when people have babies that it's like, you just assume, Oh, you've had a baby, great, we'll go see them. And, you know, a lot of people are now saying, we'll let you know, you know, even waiting till they get home and even you know, settling in waiting till breastfeeding is established or, you know, any challenges. I've got an even, like, over here, not so much now. But a few years ago, there was a big thing with whooping cough. So people were saying until you're vaccinated, we don't want you to come to see the baby. So yeah, and I think people just getting more respectful of other people's, you know, wishes, just because it's always been done a certain way doesn't mean that that's, you know, how we should keep doing things. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Having the boundaries, and not holding it to like, the expectation that that's how things have to go, you can make it, you can make those decisions and say that this is the new way of doing things. And then actually like it better having the babies like during COVID and saying no, or at least like in the postpartum experience. I can't imagine, like, this is something that I had establishes boundaries, like if you want to come over, you have to bring dinner. Love that, that people are like, can I come over visit? Like, you know, what are you bringing for dinner? Like, are you gonna come over and do some laundry for me? Because I don't want to entertain you. Yes, that is awesome. Like, literally, what are you bringing with you? What are you going to do while you're here, you're just going to sit on your ass and hold my baby while I sit there and think of all these things I've got to do. Or I could be asleep right now. You know. I love that. So we have a digital production company that we just started. And it came to be because of all of the stuff that I've been doing with the YouTube and the podcast and all the social media management and all of that stuff because I had to put together a team to do it. I'm sure you have one too, with editing and whatnot. So I was like, Oh, my goodness, it's a game changer. I've got time, right, you know, it's this is, yeah, I've got time. I can do it. I did not time. So I was like I cannot be sitting here on my computer doing all this. So I hired a team to help me do it. And I realized I'm like, this is a need that I can fill and I need to at least monetize what I'm doing. Because at this point, I was just shelling money out trying to get everything edited and monitor my podcasts and just everything. Social media service, like let me share my team with people to see well that's where that came to be. Yep. So primarily, we help people with podcast editing and production, YouTube Editing and the SEO that goes with it, like the keywords and the titles and the thumbnails and the backlinks and all those fun things that I didn't even know was a thing until I started doing it. Yeah. And social media management. Yeah, right. So where can people find find you online with that if people want a Fievel interested in that. So it's mama media, ma ma M Ed ia.org. And that's where you could find us for those services. was cool. I'll put a link to that in the show notes if anyone wants to check that out. Yeah, it's interesting, like when you say, like, I do it myself because I can and because I really, I had all the equipment here from my singing, so I didn't have to purchase anything and got my mixer, I've got my mic and everything, and I can do all my editing myself. And I actually really love doing it. Like, that's part one of the parts that I actually I really look forward to doing because I love fiddling around doing things, you know, that's just my thing. But there'd be a lot of people that don't love that and don't have the time and don't have the equipment to do it. So I think that's a really good service and good on you for for like, being able to like you've got that team you can share with other people. It's already there. And you can go right, I mean, you can do this for other people. Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, like, it came, like I was just showing money out the door. And I'm like, I can't keep doing this. Like I need to be able to bring something in here. Somehow. I was like, How can I monetize this. And I was like that, like, you've got a perfect little formula right here, like just put it out there. And I love the name T that's a really cool name. Thank you. Just like to share with everybody that listens, that you can do whatever you want in this life, and you don't have to be defined because you're a mom or by that title, you can seriously have your cake and eat it too. And what I mean by that is you can create the businesses that you want, you can create the financial freedom, that financial security that you want, you can do the hobbies that bring you joy, you can create anything that you want in this life. So don't let being a mom define you by that. I grew up with so many people that did and they are not happy, like at the end of the day. And it just is a shame because they're meant for more than that. Hmm, yeah, that's a really, really well said, Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? We just because we have a child doesn't mean that our whole rest of our life has to stop existing. Yeah, like, there's a trend going around right now. That's mom before she was mom. And it's like, all the photos of her having fun. And then like, as a mom, it's just she's holding the kids and putting them down for bed. And it's like, you can do all those fun things with them. Like, it doesn't have to be an end to your life. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It doesn't stop. And I think that's the thing like our, my parents generation, that there was very much, it was very much of us in them. Like, obviously, we're crazy family. But, you know, parents would do so much stuff without the kids. Whereas now I feel like we're involving our kids in so much more other parts of our lives that I wasn't involved in with my parents. So that's really good change, I think. Yeah, I think it's really positive and important and impactful for them to to be part of it. You know, if I were watching my mom, like, do the things that she wanted to do, I think you'd one like have like a newfound respect for them, because you're seeing them doing what they love and happy and joyful. And it's also like setting an example for you that you can do it too, huh? Absolutely. Yeah. It's great. That's a lovely note to end on. Thank you. It's been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you so much for giving me your time today. It's not time over there, isn't it? What time is it? There? They go. It's quarter past 10 In the morning, over here. So it's really a lovely start to my day. Thank you and all the best with everything. I'm sure you're gonna keep keep ticking things off that bucket list and keep achieving things because you Yeah, very motivated, very driven. And it's it's lovely to chat with you. Thank you, Alison. It's been so fun. I hope that everybody enjoyed our chat too. If anybody wants to come over and listen to more than we've got going on come to the Mickey money moves show. I'd love to have Allison on. And you can find me on Instagram at list dot Morton. Awesome. And yes, I'll put all the links so everyone can just click away and find you and that would be awesome. Thank you again. It's been great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor and she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes Your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Gerda Moser - Kindler Hungarian born flautist, composer and pianist S2 Ep34 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Gerda Moser-Kindler is a flutist, pianist, composer, producer and mother of 1 based in Saltzburg, Austria. Gerda was born and raised in Hungary where music came naturally to her as both of her grandparents from her mother’s side were classical musicians and music was all around her during childhood. Gerda decided very early on in her life that she was going to be a professional musician. She moved to Austria to study Flute at the Mozarteum University and fell in love with the city. After playing classical, jazz and even flute beatbox concerts for many years, she started to produce music for theatre and film. In 2020 she released her debut album “The Fragrance Of Memories”, which is a genre-bending experience between neo-classical, folk and new age, and 2 singles Deceptive Lights released in 2021 and Prayer for a Child in 2020 under the guise of Szintra Gerda enjoys playing instruments from all around the world including the Hungarian Water Reed Pipe, Native American flute , and Dizi Bamboo Flute from China . She creates music from the Hungarian folk, new age, mediation, fantasy and neo classical genres, and describes her core genre as melancholic neoclassical. **This episode contains discussion about premature birth** Gerda website / Instagram Listen to her music Spotify and itunes ArtFeeders Podcast - instagram / website Gerda’s music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in. My guest today is guelder masa Kindler. ganda is a flutist pianist, composer, producer, and a mother of one based in Salzburg in Austria. Ghana was born and raised in Hungary where music came naturally to her as both for grandparents from my mother's side were classical musicians and music was all around her during her childhood. gelded aside decided very early on her life as she was going to be a professional musician. She moved to Austria to study flute at the Mozarteum University and fell in love with the city. After playing classical jazz, and even flute beatbox concerts for many years, she started to produce music for theatre and film. In 2020, she released her debut album, The fragrance of memories, which is a genre bendy experience between neoclassical folk and new age, and she since released two singles, deceptive lights in 2021, and prayer for a child. In 2020. She releases her music under the name of Sintra gather enjoys playing instruments from all around the world, including the Hungarian WaterAid pipe, Native American flute, and the ditzy bamboo flute from China. She creates music from the Hungarian folk, New Age, meditation, fantasy, and neoclassical genres, and describes her core genre as melancholic neoclassical. This episode contains discussion around premature birth. Good, good evening. To you and good morning for me. We have 9am Wow. And it is cold and a little bit also dark so. Oh, you're in Austria. Now. We born in Hungary? Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. I'm here still. 9099 it's, this is 21 years ago. I moved here to study. And since I'm living here, and it wasn't planned to stay here, but I met my husband and I also got easier job here. So I stayed. And I love to live in Zionsville This is a very special unique city, you know, Mozart, really old houses from 1412. Something like this. In light of nature, a lot of nature. A lot of culture. A lot of shops. Munich, just two hours from here, Vienna just three hours from here. So it's also really good. Good to live. Very expensive. Very, very expensive to live. Yes, it's for artists, not maybe the best city. But well, I am here and I stay here I think yeah. Oh, that's lovely. So tell us about all the different instruments you can play. I've been following your, your stories on your Instagram account with all the instruments. Well, basically, I'm playing the flute. I will start if I was nine years old, and I got really classical normal musical education. And I wanted to play the oboe. Yeah. And in the country side in the small town. Yes, we are sorry, we don't have the teacher for this. And then I had to change my mind. Okay, what can I play? Okay, woodwind. It's cool. Because after that you can play in the, in the brass band for children. And then I started to play the flute. But if I was, I was 13, I think I decided to be a professional musician. I want to make this and then you have to play the piano, of course. And then I started to get piano lessons. And I really loved it. And I I had a great teacher at the university too. So I made I was I made the education for being a flute teacher. And then it's also important that you can company your students a little bit. Yeah, so I had the piano lessons. And I was really, really good in piano and my teacher asked me, don't you want to make also piano teaching education? And I said, Okay, I would really love it. But I know have time to practice both instruments. Yeah, in that high level, it's not possible so I didn't do it. And well, I have different fluids of course, I bought in China Aditi This is a Chinese a Chinese bamboo flute. And I I bought a bass TT from sandalwood. And they send me to Australia. Yes, please track your order and say Welcome Hi. So great. Your fluid is arrived in Sydney and I oh gosh, know what, it's Austria and Australia. Story I never thought but this is a real story. It happens it happens. So I got the flute three I think three or four months later later and I had to write to the shop and they know this is not true. They are not key or DC surely the delivery post office is somewhere else. And then I got the packet and there was the address. They send it really to Australia. So it was from so this is why special connection to Australia. And and yes I also have a Hungarian wood flute from Plum. Oh wow. So this this is a folk instrument. And the newest baby is an American Native flute. This is a double barrel shortcut and yeah, it was cool. I always try to buy a flute this is not so high. I love this sound from bass. But I have two small hands and two small fingers and the most of the flutes are too big and the holes are too wide. And so I have two problems with this Chinese based easy to play I get to appear it's it's not really good to play for me. And this Native American flute has an accompany just a drone sound always the same. And the other side with your fingers. You can also play the melody and yes, this is a daughter spirit to sound I really Love and I get a lot of great feedbacks. So I think I have to buy another flute also the same it is on 4032 Hertz. Yeah this is the resonance from the earth. Yes, yes. Yes. So this is the the next plan the wider next Instagram it sounds like perfect you know it just has that beautiful you can just close your eyes and it is it's a connection to the earth. It's just amazing. I just love it. Yes, the sacred is reverb. Yeah, yeah speed out. It's true. I got the booklet to it and also a DVD. Really high professional. It's a great shop and in the big booklet you can read it it is highly recommended to put a reverb because without it's just a little bit I don't know the word in English not wet dry. It is so dry and you cannot feel this flying away and all this thing and and I make my experiences the last video was too much reward. I played next video with that it was a little bit too much but you can play with it and and change then the the whole sound from it. Yeah. And yes, meditation music. Yes, I think it's also I think for my future for my nearly future yet I'm really interested in Yeah, I listened to some of you your music and your name of Sintra, Sintra, Sintra, Roma, Sintra, it is maybe an English Sintra? I have a very hot air like a pair. Yeah. Okay. I really enjoyed listening to that to do so you, you play all the instruments yourself, you play your piano and then you do layer on top of your with your other instruments. Yes, I always play the piano. I always play the piano. It is never computer made something. It is a computer sound. And I have a Clavinova an electric piano I can control with. I can connect with my computer. But I always play by myself. And the rest is of course this is an an instrumental music orchestra music. I'm trying now for my second album to make a chamber orchestra not this always this really big thing. And these instruments are usually computer instruments are not not not a real violin. I know some of the people for example, in Bogota in Colombia, Colombia, you could play for me and send the audio but then you have lots of people and you have to to have a budget for this and I don't have the money to pay a whole orchestral base. So this is difficult and I had an opera singer yeah at the first album in the Peace friends a know her and she was coming to us from grads This is another city to us desire to work and be paid the travel coast and and and everything for her and of course Gaza but what does it mean the money if you get the boat The payment for the test. Yeah, you know. And she was really singing live we had a studio for this we paid for the studio with the audio engineers. And and she was really singing. And I had a guitarist. He's teaching at them your motorhome at the university. This was live and a contra bass. Because I also wanted something really warm, natural, basic. But it was it was the last order or rest is too much money. Yeah. Not still I don't have it. Maybe in the future. I can say yes. I would like to have this orchestra or this. Yeah. Yes. To have dreams and goals. Like, you know, in the future. It might happen. But you know, it's good. Yes, yes, yes. You can think about it and meditation and to manifest it in your mind. And yep, it will, it will happen. Absolutely. You got to put it out there. You've got to you've got to make it feel like it's real. And then it can come to yours. Yeah, for sure. So you decided very early on when you were 13 that you were going to do music as your career, you were pretty sure that music was going to be a big part of your life from a very, I had the problem that I was interested in several things. I loved sport and I wanted to be a karate master with six. And my parents said no, you have to learn German. Okay. Okay. I started to learn in kindergarten with three years because the half of my family, the family from my father. The roots are German. And I was really interested in drawing and painting. Literature, write stories. And then yes, of course music too. And in half in Hungary, we have a system you have to decide really early. But you would be like in the future and you are 14 and this is too early, I think. But you have to decide to change to the gym, to a higher school, from primary school with 12. And then if you if I was 14, I, I changed for the special school for music. And I think I'm not sure my grandparents from mother's side were musicians too. And they died both if I was in the primary school. My grandfather if I was nine, when I was nine and my grandmother I think I was 11 and before she died, she sent me a message. Please never stopped to make newzik Also if is just the whole pay for you. Because newzik makes life beautiful. And I didn't understand it really as a child but I knew that this is something really important. It has to be important if she won to say to me before she died, and I think it was just the strongest feeling inside the strongest connection from all the other things I like and and history and I don't know, yes. But music was always next to me and inside of me and and I decided to me, for me, and not everybody was really happy musician's life is really hard. And my mom also knew it from from the parents. Yeah. But they always supported me. And then I jumped in and I, I had to swim from that was no stopping. Yeah, yes. Yeah, that's a beautiful memory to have with your grandmother with that message that she gave to you to hold on to and, you know, if you're ever I don't know, if you're ever having moments where you're, you're sort of not sure what to do or you know, you're struggling you can you always have that just to fall back on not always keeps you going. Yes, yes, yes. I didn't have a lot of time with them. I was a small kid. And I just started to play the flute. And my grandfather died. And my grandmother lived in the capitol in Budapest, and we, the countryside, but I had the opportunity to visit her sometimes. And then I had to take the flute and stand in the living room, and you're playing now and what you have to do on stage and how you have to say it, and what's right, what's not how you have to communicate with your audience. I could learn a little bit from her. And it was it was not, not a long time. Not much time with her but really significant. She was a singer. And she had this holding your body proud. You are a woman, you are an artist. You go outside, and you do this now. Perfect. Not somehow you do it. Perfect. So again and again. And again. It's not enough. Not Not it's not good. Again, please. I stood there. Oh, Gosh, gosh, so serious. Okay, now I have to do it. I can do it. And this few times with her. It helped me so much. So locked in after that. And I really not recognized that. It was inside planned inside and I had it. I had it. So it was really important. Yeah, that's wonderful. I lost my grandma. We called her Nana when I was 10. So around the same age. Yes. And she was the first one that bought us our first we used to play the organ. So like the two two keyboard organ she was the first one that bought bought it for my sister and when we when we were kids, so yeah, I've got that similar connection where she she didn't play. But she was sort of recognized that, you know, we had we had an interest in music and sort of helped her to foster that. So yeah, I remember hearing when many I like I write songs about her and you know, she's influenced me even though she's been gone for so long. But yeah, yes, it can hold really long. Yes. And maybe it's it's too early. The information is too early maybe now. But you can you can save it somewhere and if the time now, right? Yeah, okay. It comes out and you have it and you feel it and you know it. Oh my gosh, it was because of this now I understand. And Thank you grandma. System message from the past. Yes. That's lovely. I love that. How many children do you have? I have one a daughter. She's four years old. And her name is Camilla. That's a beautiful name. Yes, I slept for a very long time. No, I, I wanted a name for her. You can speak out in Hungarian and also in German too, and you don't get troubles because a lot of Hungarian names are complicated to speak in German. And you change the letters and it sounds totally different and this is not the Hungarian name. And I also wanted that you can write it in Hungarian. And you are able to read it right in German. So a key usually you you you you use C for Camilla but I've write with write her name with Hungarian with key so ca Mila so it was not easy to find like this. But it was a it was a really interesting talk on the TV a Hungarian talk with different woman's women I don't know psychologic and and issues about how to work and being woman something like this. And one of the guests had this name Camilla. And it was written then underline and I read it and yes, yes. I have it. It was also a bit strange but I thought okay, Camilla Moser Kindler This has also a read and everybody can speak it out and write it and yes yes, this was the story. Oh, I love that. So Did you know Did you know you were having a girl or did you have a boy's name picked out as well just in case you had a boy and the first few months I thought to get a boy and I started also to search but because I have a chore German last name Kindler and my husband has has an Austrian name Moser I, I wanted to have a Hungarian name for the first name and it it was not possible to find a boy name. You can spell it the same and speak out in the same way in in German. So I was okay this is a covey law. Yes. Thank you. It worked out perfect goodness. Yes, it was a problematic parts to find a name for a boy Yeah. When you were pregnant with Camilla we're still playing? Yes, yes. I had a really comfortable unproblematic pregnancy i i made sporty Lian with her so just pregnancy program. And she also liked it. I felt inside that she she liked to move and have extra and I also was teaching till the end. It was a little bit difficult in the sevens moms to lie laying down on the floor, for example, and to show some of the brief exercises for flute Yes, something like this, it was not really possible to breathe. So you know, as a singer Well, where are my volume? And I headed it? No, it's the baby inside. And that was a at the time. I didn't play concerts anymore. So I didn't have these gigs and concerts, but I was teaching and yes, it was not a problem for me. Yeah, great. Yeah. I like to whenever I get in a musician, a singer or you know, like in your case with the woodwind I love to talk about hey, how you went when you're pregnant? It's just it's just so funny. Like you try and breathe and there's like no room to breathe like your diaphragm is hiding under this somewhere you can't access the breath. Yes, you are used to have this speak for human you know you this take you for seven liters in the lung and then what what I can can do it. Oh my gosh, so it was uncomfortable. It was it was nerve racking too. And I started to eat something really stupid things I really don't like you know and then you think oh my gosh, why I like to eat this now. I hated my whole life. And I have to eat this now and it is delicious. It's so crazy. Is the cravings after my pregnancy I stopped to eat this different stretch legs so that that was that was it was not a problem? After you had Camila How long was it before you're able to start playing again we you obviously you might not have been go out and do shows or gigs. But were you able to to use your music as sort of a way to transition yourself I suppose into that change of life. At the first time. I wasn't able to make music. I had to stop with everything. Camila came also two months earlier. Oh, she was she was a preemie. And we had to stay with her in the intensive care unit for two months. And we had a totally different start after that at home. Yeah. And where the flute is a really loud instrument. So if you are practicing like a typical classical musician, it will be loud. And it was not possible with a baby. Yeah, it were too loud for her. So I I kept just one student a week at certain malls I think. Yeah, from November so the first three months really nothing. Not to touch the piano not to see not to find my flute. Where is my flute? What is a flute? Let's let me sleep please. Where is the bed? Where is my coffee? Oh my gosh, three days over. I have to take a shower and wash my hair. And each second hour you have to feed your baby and take the change the nappies and this this was the program and and I think after the after three months at home at home. Camilla came in summer, and we were able to go home at the end of August. So at the beginning of of autumn and then I think just before we Before winter, I started to play again a little bit piano because I I had this problem, I lost connection to music fully. And it was totally important to me to keep somehow the connection. And then I, I pushed the baby bed from the sleeping room to the living room. There was my piano at the really very early morning at five e when everybody is sleeping, and everything, just quiet, and peace. And she was next to my piano. So I had the control what's happening, but she she was slipping. And I took my headphones and turn on my piano and just tried to play something. Yeah, to close my eyes and Okay. Oh, nice. This is F sharp. Okay, nice. Maybe I would like to play more. You know? And these were the magical moments for me to feel okay, it's not everything lost. Yeah, yeah, music is here for you. And you, you can you can take the hand from music and, and she or he is here. And and then I started to compose, but it was not not planned that I will write pieces and I will release my first album. Not at all, it was really just trying to stay somehow inside of my own very special word. And to play the flute and teach more, it's still a problem. Yeah, problem. So I had sometimes shortcakes for example, a request, please, I composed a cool piece in medieval style, with hand pants and guitar, and you could play something with the flute, just an improvising. And it's free and cool. And you can create something without this pressure from classical. You have to play the Mozart exactly like this. And you will have to practice three weeks before each day four hours. So I was really happy to get these opportunities from some of the musician friends. But it was it was so regulary continuous to have concerts. It's it's still not not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you sort of feel like that. That's sort of on hold at the moment until Camila gets a bit older, and then you might be able to go back into it. Do that a little bit more. Hopefully, yes, I'm trying. I mean, she will be five in summer. So she's not a small child. She She is really active and and a really hard character, you know, from the beginning, from the beginning, from the first week after her birth. And I think I have also give her the freedom to be a free child and not just always you have to stay next to me and I have to save you because you were a preemie on oh my gosh, you are a small child. No. Yeah. She is a strong personality and she she has a small body She's a child but but the mind and the soul. She is an own being. And I think this is also really important. And I'm trying now to look that we can live longer in the kindergarten a little bit longer, that I can also have more time in the morning next to household washing Cool, okay, go to the post and older things I really hate. Yeah. So, so much time, I could compose, I could practice, I could have a meditation, I could create something really cool, you know, and oldest things, I hate it, it is just a lot of rat of really good time is over, and I'm cooking for two hours, you know, really good, delicious two hours in the kitchen, then your family come and eat it in 10 minutes. And they say thanks, bye. Yeah, everything leaves there, you have to clean. I have to put the rest in the fridge. And in 10 minutes to two hours work in 10 minutes is everything over and the next day you can start again. So I hate it. And I am struggling with it all the time. I know it is. It's important. You have to do it. And I love to have order everywhere, then I am. I'm calm and I'm feeling well, is everything order. So with a four years old child is not so easy. So I'm just put here and put there and I come back to the living room and oh my gosh, I can't start again. And yeah, so this is this, this is still the problem. But if she can say longer in the kindergarten, then I have also more time. So I can organize from eight or half past eight to practice the flute till the till 10 Then make a short break and then compose for example, then to cook and then I can pick up my, my daughter and afternoon. Yeah, it's no stress anymore to think oh my god, I have to do this and this and this and this and this. Because we don't have food in the fridge. I would like to have something to dinner for my daughter one but nah, son without Banaras. And yes, we are on it with my husband to to organize it again, and start to build it with the time that we both have more time for working. It's also a financial question. So you cannot stay for four long years. With two hours work a day. It is not possible. Yeah, it's tricky balance, isn't it? It's Yes, yes, yes, these elements have to come together. That it's that you, you're still making music a priority in your life. Like it's so important to that you're you're trying to make it work. And that's fantastic. You know, I think that's because I decided to be a musician to become a musician. I did it my whole life. So this is the normal situation for me and for my mind and for my body. So I miss it. I think something is wrong. Yeah, you know, and, and this is also the way who I can how I can show my feelings, and also how I can work with it. It's it happened something sad or some something wrong. I can write it out. And I can send it also to other people also on Instagram. I have a great community from a lot of really excellent musicians and such lovely people. They say thank you, you write this song realize and yes, I'm feeling some of the stupid person did something really wrong to you? And yes, I had the same experience with somebody else. Yeah. And it's cool that you can show show this in your music and thank you for this. And it's such a good feeling. Yeah, it's really it's amazing. The connection That music creates between people like it's just, it's just amazing. That's one of my favorite things about music, all sorts of music is just the relationship builds and the connections you create with people. It's just it's wonderful. I love it. Yes, and you don't have to speak the accent. Make language so you can just sing and I can play the flute. And other can play the piano and we don't need the sheets and everything. And and we have fun, we have fun and we have immediately the connection and everybody around us can feel this positive energy and this one. So music is magic and I'm really, really thankful that I was able to learn music and and also a lot of thank you to my parents. They said, You go now that a music school, my child point. So I was too young, to SD I would like to end the no I don't like and next week, oh, maybe I would like you know, you are too young to decide. So significant things. And it was also a big part from my parents. Also, if I was I think 1010 or in or 12 I had this teenager week. I don't like to make music anymore. And I'd finished and I want to go out and have party be the others and like this. I had to practice inside and the other children was outside and had had fun and played. And my mother said, Hey, know, if you started something, you have to finish it. And if you finished it, you can start something new. I was totally angry, you know, I pushed it or something like well, I hate you all. And after a week, I was so thankful because I went again to this brass orchestra for children is breast band. And there were my friends and and the whole community. And I was so thankful that my parents didn't allow me just because I have now they think my hormones are good for them. Does your daughter Camila? Is she musical boy? Yeah, yes. My husband is hip hop and breakdancer. Oh right? Yes. And if she was small like one years, two years old. We visited a lot of hip hop events or soul break events open air with circa and jazz to showcase from others and after the workshop and she was always there and she could look and she could try so it was new music and dance immediately connected. And of course I played the piano and it was allowed always it is always allowed to go to the piano turn on and play if she want and she could play with me together we have a beautiful fruit photo from her I think she was maybe two years old with this small legs you know the short hair the little finger and sit on the piano and just push you know and she's such a happy girl and you think yes this this is a good way but I'm not pushing. Yeah, she's also have a simple flute. You know this? Yes, yes. And it's almost broken because she did it with the t zero. This is from vote. Nevermind I can buy another fluid but She played it just the one, the one, sour, something like this, and running in the room from other side with the flute, and play the piano. And we bought a sono tram. This is a beautiful small instrument you can also have also with fingers, and also with the stakes in C major and you can play the pentatonic, so it is really harmonique or so forth Chai for children, and you don't have to, to be able to read the sheet or something like this. She's She really like it. And I have a loop machine yet. And yesterday, my daughter asked, Hey, what is this, I want to try this now. And I said, Oh my gosh, this is technique. And it's really a long time ago, I used it I don't remember. So you have to ask your daddy. And they played it here in the living room. And she hold the microphone, and just saying some of the children from kindergarten. This mouse really Mouse voice, but totally serious standing with the microphone. And then of course loop you can hear it again but today and try it. And I tried to make a small recording and the photo and she told me Hey, mom go away. This is just a geek from Darien May. No photos, no videos, just leave. This is a geek from Darien five. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry to disturb you. And yes, sometimes I also start to say, Come on, we do something. But usually she can do it free if she want. And it is also important to give her the possibility to try things. And to see new music is something really natural and normal. And also so important. And if she if she would like in the future, she can play an instrument. Or she can dance. But it's not important to me that she will be also a professional. Yeah. Yeah. You want to you wanted to come to it, because she wants to come to it not because you feel like you're forcing her and then you know, she might not enjoy it, then she feels like she has Yes, I know this, this situation from from this Western musical culture is really strong and hard. I had the same you you have to practice and you have to play all the things exactly like this. And it's also important to learn how you can work effective and really, really learn things and not just oh, I don't like it today. I don't don't do it today and three weeks away and you never touch it fluid. So it won't be work. But I think it's more important for all at the beginning to wake up the love for this. And and to check. Oh, it can make me so much fun. I can have fun with it. And this is not something I have to do because my mom wanted but I don't want it so I had more students, pupils in the in the music school. Kids from the primary school. So from from six to 1214 they really liked me. Yeah. But they, they didn't want to learn flute. They wanted to be in a soccer club for years, or be an artist in circles, you know, something totally different, but the parents wanted it. Yeah. And this is I think this is not the good way. So I definitely agree with that. Definitely You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I was singing. With your composing, does Camilla influence the work that you make? Oh, well, at the end now, I think yes, but at the time I start to compose my own stuff. It was 2017 it was just the board to keep connection. Yeah. And in my music, it wasn't really message inside it, it was just the feeling just a moment just lie, it's just colors. And I named it the fragrance of memories. So of course, there were a lot of memories in this music. But it didn't recognize really what I'm doing. And it was not yes, I want to say this and this and this with my music. In a certain year, if, when she was three years old, I, I felt this it became everything so clear. I turned also 40 Maybe it is significant here in lot of in the life from lots of woman, I don't know. But for me, it was I was before from the beginning, Camila was born, I felt in such a monotone spirit, what a desert. You know, it was everything monotone. Without art without imposes, it's just baby and you and you have to do this and this and all the time the circle. And and repeat and repeat repeat. And 2020 It was 2020 it was for a lot of people a terrible year. But for me personally, it was one of the best years because my mind opened it to the universe. And I got a lot of input it was just if your mind is standby, you know it's nothing happen. And to get the USB inside and the good Digga Digga, digga, Digga, digga Digga Digga informations you get it now. And you'll have it now on your computer. And and then I felt I'm on a new higher level, my personality and I am a new person now. And I know what I want and feeling everything much stronger and clearer. Also the people around me and also the energy from the people. So I could decide much faster. It is a person it's good for me. Or please leave. It's not good. And it's star that then we did that the second variable I started to compose new pieces. And it happened the first time to that I am sit down and wrote the whole thing. Yeah, in in 20 minutes or 10 minutes from the beginning to the end. And then I could stand up and say okay, it's finished. I said what I want okay, I know this is just a skeleton. Yes, I know. I have to write the harmony and orange more and blah blah blah, blah, blah. But this the strong feelings. Exactly. Yes. I don't know. Lies or true. Reflections self reflection for example, this feelings became really present and this is influenced in the next album is each each piece has exactly demotic and it is an exact story but happened to me and from about I'm speaking or I'm playing in this space yes yeah well have you got other people around you over there in Salzburg sort of going through the same thing having children and trying to keep creating their music not really. Unfortunately not. I had a friend she plays the piano, but she is furious older than me and she got married and got her children much earlier than me. And then we lost connection she became a mom from two children and I just lived my life and my concepts and oldest stuff and I I was an old mom because I became 37 When my daughter was born and other musicians with children the children are already in the primary school their seventh or eighth is not a not a shoe anymore. And some of the other are still not married and don't have children so they are working a lot and maybe they also don't want to have this family life just to create and make and the weekends are free and we can go out to make party also during the week isn't a problem or to have a trip somewhere. So for me it was not easy and I didn't know who I could manage how can things work? The only way for me was to stop totally everything and wait a few years. A few more years I hope just a few years yes that it work again. Yes. What how you said that Camilla is in she in preschool? Is what year do they how old are the kids when they start primary school over there a prime primary school she can start when she's six when she's six. Yeah. When she's six. So I think one and a half years one or two years on then then she can start yes but I hope I get it earlier I hope I got it earlier because I I'm feeling from time to time to go crazy. You know this this this just sitting and and not to create and not to do what what is inside and I have to give it out and it's really important to me from for my mental health and my physical health to Yeah, that that that I can do it? Yes. Yeah. I don't know about you when I when I don't get to create what I want. If I don't get the time. I get really impatient. And I just start to get like like, Don't poke the beer like yes. Is The topic of mum guilt I'm not sure if that's a term that you familiar with, or if you use that term in Austria, or Germany I, I Googled it. I had to look for it. I asked my husband because he has a really good English but he was looking like mama wat Yes, I understand it. We don't use this this in German and also not in Hungarian. But yes, this is a very important, a very important topic. Yes. And I have my problems too with it, of course. So it is. Well, I told already, in the first two years, it was not a problem because I didn't work. So it was yes, okay. This is my responsibility. Now I have a child and I decided to have a child, it was a really hard decision to be a mom. But after that, I started to teach a little bit more and bid my first album and compose and recording something all this stuff then I felt and still now often under under a lot of pressure and a lot of pressure. How can I manage this i Okay, I have to prepare for this lesson. Because I have a new student and I have to practice because I have to play something with the student. But my daughter comes to me and say Please, mom, I would like to draw with you. Or we build something with Lego. And it is really hard for me to to keep the balance who I can manage everything on the day. It is it is necessary to do for the household that our family can rums Yeah, yeah. Then what the what is necessary that I can work, I can make my job. And then I would love to make Oh, something with my daughter because I wanted to have her. So it is not about Yes. Okay. I have now child and and outside, you know, for the social life? Yes, she is married and she has a child everything. Okay. You know, I wanted to have a child and then I would like to take also the time to visit her. It's still a big problem. It's still a big problem. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's one of those things, everyone that I speak to, on these podcasts and everyone I speak to in life, it's the same thing. It's the same stories that are how do we balance it? How do we get how do we get it right? And it's just a constant, constant struggle, I think is the best way to describe. I think if you are a woman, your goal was to build a family and to to get children then this is for you to paradise. This is your life and your whole thing and I respect all the woman they they are able to do it. Yeah, this is a huge word. And it's so much energy and always be there for everything. But I think if if you are an artist, artists are usually free souls. So you need I need a lot of time alone for myself in quietness. If nobody speaks, and I can hear the silence, and then I can start to hear inside my own thoughts and ideas, and it takes time, it takes time. And I think then you get this problems and this struggling, because you, you don't want to lose the connection. Also not to yourself, This is you, you are an artist, you have such of ideas. And like a butterfly, you know, oh my gosh, I have this idea. And now and, and. And then you have to push it down and say no, stop. This is not the time for this. But it should have this time time now to do this. And usually you do it also before. And now this is a new situation. And yes, then you have to fight each time with yourself and say no, please. You have to responsibility. And your child needs you. And she she she she needs the time and the love. You have to give it and not just to think ego and me and me and me and my friend. Yes. Belongs to find blondes. This is the biggest thing I think yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you put that very well. Yeah. I hope, very well. Identity is something I like to talk about, too, about how you feel like yourself has changed since you became a mother. Do you have any thoughts on that topic? Yes, yes. It changed really a lot for me. At the time, Camilla was born. And we landed in this intensive care unit with her. And she was just too small and too weak. But she was healthy. And she was fighting she wanted to leave. And you know, it was beautiful and great to see her grow and and be stronger with each day. But we had a lot of doctors and a lot of nurses 24 hours around us, no private life, no private moment. It was necessary to control for Camila, it was really necessary, but it was totally different. So you don't know the situation that you are no, never alone. Never. It's in each moment, a nurse can go in your room and check something with the computer for breathing. Or something like like as. And there were also a lot of other young parents with also with the cremains. And after these two moms, we were able to go home with our hair so little girl and start almost normally live. But not all the parents had this luck. Yeah, and this was something for me personally. It changed the whole thinking about life, about problems, and also about people. So before I had problems oh my gosh, I cannot go make this trip to Vienna before Christmas to shopping. Why? I don't know. Or oh my gosh, I would like to have this makeup product and this is sold out. Yeah. And after that I had to say Hello, this is a problem, it was a problem for you. Hello, wake up, there is a totally different, really real alive with real problems. So stop to yelling and make a small thing like a big elephant. So hello, this life is over, if you had your time, but now it is the time to three to to see the reality and, and think everything over and make a new thinking from everything. And this was the most significant experience for me. And after that it changed everything. Also my connection to people. So I have really not enough free time, I don't know what is free time. If if I have a little bit time, I think in really exactly which person I would like to meet and take my time. So it is it is a good time with good energy. And I'm feeling well after that. And I can take something for me and I can give you something. Do you need me really? Do you are really interested for me? Or it is just you know, usually we do it and okay, we do it again and again. And so this was the identity change in me. And also, after this moment, I realized that after that also the influence in my music. Yes. Yes. That's massive, isn't it? It's like your whole perspective. The way you saw everything just changed completely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. This was really like, clap, you know. Yeah. And you make just a few minutes and you are in a totally new world. And you you can see so much more things and other things our way and you're not even recognized because this is not important anymore. So it was also for me personally, it was a level up. It was a very hard level up. I have to say I had to work a lot with myself to handle it. From that really negative feelings to the passivity. And to check what what I'm winning with this. But but it was it was the most significant experience in the last few years. Yeah, yes. Yes. That's huge, isn't it? Yes. Well, it's funny how things happen, isn't it? Like if Camila had have been born full term gone home? You wouldn't have had that access to that like the neonatal unit you wouldn't have seen that other parents you wouldn't have had that. So you would never have maybe come to that realization that you've come to that changed everything for you. It's funny Yes. I don't think things happen just by accident. Yeah, I believe that too. i I'm sure I'm sure. Sometimes things happens if you are not ready for it but usually thinks happened if you are ready and it's so new that you you can check it wow this is not a new opportunity to make the level up and wow this is something I have to learn something now it happening something you know and a lot of people just ignore and just yelling and say oh my gosh me poor and my daughter My God Dineo natural gas a preemie but but for me I I'd say thanks God, I catch this moment and and I had all So enough energy enough power and enough courage, yeah. To say, Okay, this is a new path and please go you have to go now and don't be afraid you will alive it's it after that story with you and your daughter and his oldest this this experiences you are stronger than ever and you you will get it but if you would like to change something if you would like the true life goes on and not just the stay and stop for long years always on the same place. You have to have the courage to try these things. And I was able I tried it and I did it and I'm really happy about it Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. That's such a great story. Night the time that you keep yourself zintro Did I say that right? Yes, Sidra Sintra. Yeah, he's that. Is that a particular word in another language? Like does that mean something? In Yes, yeah. Yes, yes. cinta Cinta. It's the meaning in old Hungarian Hungarian. The beautiful goes on. This is from the time before the country was filled Hungary. Before there were a lot of more who I can say it in English. Hungarian folks, but each part had the emperor or from that, and the 777 persons. And this is from one of this time this world and I wanted to have a deep connection to my Hungarian roots, because I also have German roots, but the Hungarian is much much stronger. So I could say I'm in 98 or 99 persons I'm feeling Hungarian. And the end of the word Thrive This is from Gare de Sosin cinta and Gerda was mixed together. And I'm I'm Ryan did get on Hungarian. So Sintra. This is also a city in Spain, for example. But I'm writing it in a Hungarian way. And this is the story behind my artist name. Oh, love that. That's very creative. I tried to do my best. Well, my sister, Alfa Allison. Yes. M for my sister, Emma. And John, the Joe. So that is like, Oh, that is no. So it's not like your story is really awesome as it's designed. This is totally cool. sounds it sounds nice. Joe. Joe says it sounds great. I love it. So I didn't want to have to artists name Gerda because this is also the problem it is then Jerrica or chair there or you know you can spell it in different way and it sounds not really like for my years Yeah, no, no please I'm searching for something they've read you are a painter as well I've seen some of your lovely paintings that you've put on your Instagram. So, is that just a hobby? Or do Do you paint and sell your work as this is just a hobby I started to draw when I was four in the kindergarten so it is really early love and I did eat through my whole life till Camila came then I had to stop the and I also visited some of the workshops for aquarelle for example, but you can say on Instagram these are paint by numbers. The picture is yes it is a ready picture and you can paint it with all so this is a new thing for me I never paint it before with oil and this is also just to trying to go back and have connection again and have to be fit again with my hands and my fingers to paint something Yeah. But I I'm drawing by myself this is I could say I have to influence a little bit from Frida Kahlo. Oh yeah, this is this self portray in some way with a message inside you can read it done and you can recognize my face or yes it could be maybe yes this is scared or this is Sintra, I know this picture maybe from from Instagram, you know and I'm working on it now. And in my free time if I have time, I really like to make copy from from pictures so I see it and I try to draw it on the paper and then also usually I make something more in my style I don't like the colors and okay the eyes are too small or something like this. But I have to say I cannot really paint by myself so maybe it is also a story for the future. Yeah, I can really paint with brushes and and with oil but to draw and and then then to use colors with it. I already on and maybe I can connect it with my second album. Sounds for a booklet or for the cover. Yeah, I was already asked from some of the people oh wow, cool. What you are doing? It is it is cool for your next time, you know, okay. I can recognize and maybe think about it. Yes. Yeah, it's lovely. Can you describe the style of music sutra music? I'm making a neo classical instrumental music with a touch of melancholy it is really important for me to say it is a melancholic music. So if, if you ask me and I don't have to name a genre, and I always say I make melancholic music usually I compose it in more and also if I have a nice melody in do I change it in more because this is this is my color, brown, dark red, warm colors deep inside, inside errs, you know, not depressive, or not negative, but always with with with the soft lights, and that you can go inside and, and and I don't make happy funny music. This is really not my style. Once I did I composed music for for dance movies. Yeah, I started 2010. And after that we made with with my husband, under the name art feeders, three short movies, dance movies. And there were some of the scenes so situations for example, at the end that was needed up happily, you know, happy and music. I was also able to write it and it sounds cool. It sounds nice. But it's not the real me the real me it is always take time. Think and and go inside and search this positive darkness and warmth inside you yourself. This is this is my music and instrumental basically because I cannot sing I tried. I learned one year just singing well, yes. I loved it. But my my voice is not cool for chairs. So I have really small and thin a sound. It's nice, but I don't know, to sing all the great tests on the arts you know Ella Fitzgerald or Sarah Warren. Sarah. Yes. is my favorite. Nina Simone, you know, you need also power in your voice and I don't have it. So I stopped to sing. I'm singing just here at home with Camilla something like this. And sometimes if I have to say something I tried to write also lyrics for this in English. Yeah, then I have to have somebody they can correct that and say okay, I I understand what you would like to say but this is sorry. Nobody else will understand you. I hear my husband to say okay, I check it but nobody else will check it but you want to save it this English so and then I try to find a singer. She or he could sing it for me. Yes, yes. This is and I would like to make a meditative music. Yes, this is this is for the future. Yeah, fantastic. Yes, yes lately. Is it important to you to be more than a mother? Yeah, it is, for me personally, really important. Before I decided to be a mom, I had to think really a lot about I really want to have this now, I am sure that I'm ready to stop everything and give up for for, for a few years, my whole artistic life, and I was really afraid that I will lost everything, hmm. And also that, that people around me, reduce me from this, to this biological being, you are now a mother, you have to do this, this and this, and this, and you should not do more. And we don't want more from you. This is now what you have to do. This is your responsibility now, to be a biological being not a person, not a woman, and not an artist. And in the first few months, I felt it, I was on the road with with my baby in the pram, and you know, that people seeing in you just the mother, you will not recognize, like, like a woman. This is this is a mother with a small child. And that was and I was sure that I can hold it for a long time. This is not not a situation for me. What I want and what I like, for me was really important that people are not just saying in me, Ah, nice Barbie doll you know, with big guys and small noses and blondie. But to say okay, this girl has a brain in the head and she can use this brain and Okay, she is more than just like, like a doll we see maybe in her and I worked really hard, a lot and a long time for this. And I was afraid to lose this. And I think it's really important also to show my child and she's a girl, she will a woman should be will be a woman that she can also learn this that you are not just a female, you are a person, you are a human, you can think you can make huge, amazing beautiful things you can build everything that you want, you can be the director from the Mozart day or if you would like or you can go outside and and and work in the industry what you want. And this is really important to show. Yes, of course we have to do the household and this is usually a work for woman and and so on and so on. But also to show outside to other people. Okay, I am a mother but my life is don't go to to the end with this. Hmm so I had my life before and yes, I'm export again and I can take really cool maybe sexy clothes again. Yes, I'm not an old grandma. I'm sorry. I like makeup and I like to dress my hair and take my jewelleries and I'm back Hey, come on. I was just pregnant. I'm back here know. Yes, yes. This is important for me personally. And I have to say that I I had to fight for this. Yeah, for me and also for for the others in my nearness that they can recognize Hey, okay, she's wake up again. Ganga is back again. He's back. You Nah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. That's awesome. That is so good. And you write, like showing showing your daughter, you know, that she's got so many options in the world, you know, the world's changing and she can do you know, compared to her, her grandmother, you know or your grandmother like the things are changing as the generations? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, Austria is in several ways traditional and of thinking, also, in the path from the woman, a lot of women are able to stay at home and be a household and housewife, and stay for a longer time with children at home. But this is not my style, and nobody my family from the woman is like this, we are all strong, loud woman, and we say I want this and I do this now. And the man can say, okay, honey, you know, this is okay, how do we use to, to fight for things we want. And also in my family, I have an older sister, and no brothers, and also my father, my parents. They give me this, this education, you know, I raised up you are democratic, you are a person, you are not the girl, you are one of the family. And you can say what you would like, and please, you have to fight for your things and go for it. And go for it. And if you would like to build a house from from what command I show you here, you can do you can do it. This is the hammer and do it. Not oh my gosh, no, you are a girl go to the kitchen, you know. So this is for me a pretty normal life. That's wonderful. It's interesting. I spoke to a lady yesterday. She's She was born in China. And she's lived in Australia for a long time. And when she was talking about the same kind of thing that her mother was very different to the traditional Chinese mother. Because the Chinese mother has to do everything. Like they basically forget about who they are let go of themselves and they just do everything for everybody. And her mother wasn't like that her mother was was also an artist. So she basically she got her daughter to walk to school. That wasn't the damn thing you used to have to drive your children to school but she's like no, you can do it you're capable you can walk to school and she learned all this from her mom. So now she's like it with her children as well. And she you know, she's got this empowering sort of, you know, coming through the generations which is yeah, the same as you like this. You know, I keep going like this with my hands and how that's come down. You know? It's wonderful, so good. Yes, I mean, I don't have problem with it. If if if this is a family and this is a tradition, and as a woman, you can you can have this comfortable situation that your husband or your families read and you have enough money and you can stay at home. And you can take from everybody and you are happy with this. Then you should do it. Then you should do it. Because since I am a mom too, and I have to do all the things the same things. I know what a huge job this is, from day by day to organize and and to keep running everything that your family can have the normal day and I think it it would be really important that all these woman get paid pro moms for this job. Because you are you are a nurse you are a babysitter you are a cook, you are a cleaning person and you have four or five jobs in one and you don't get paid for this. And usually your work one scene, you know you make you clean the kitchen and after an hour is a bomb inside bang and nobody will say oh thank you mom, you clean the kitchen. So beautiful. Thank you so much you do Wait. It's normal that you do. And it's normal that it's everything in order. And I think it would be also important to show women, we recognize what you are doing all day. And we know if we don't have you, the family of your broken family won't work without a woman and without somebody who has to do who who does all the things. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, you have your children too. And they come and say, Mom, where is my pants? And I don't fight. And you go inside the room and this is everything coated, but you know where in this shelf? Here your beds darlin. And everybody's just studying my daughter's stunning my husband is stunning, huh? The tired your depends. Is there inside your cupboard? Yes, I show I searched it, but I didn't find you know, yeah, these are the small small things. But you have a lot of from the small things during the day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you have to save everything in your mind. And you have to keep in mind this and this and this and this and we have not asked to do and so and also for your partner lot of situations you met men thinking others and and then you have to try to create art too. So I think it's amazing, multitasking magic that we women can do. Yes, we can be proud, I think we can be proud if we get it if we get it. What have you got coming up in the future things that you're working on or the projects or ideas that you've got, where now I think that it's a good time to start with a little bit more gigs. Practicing and you know, after one or two months, we have spring. So newborn and wake up and start again with new fresh energy. I think this is a really good time to try it. And I met an excellent oboe player. And we started to play jazz together. I studied at the University of Mozart to my emphasis was jazz and popular music. And in that time, I played also in the jazz band from the University and we had okay and I really loved it to be free and improvise and and to practice jazz because you have to practice just to a lot of people thinking okay, just play something. This is jazz. No jazz is really complicated and you have to check it and we plan to have duo concert in March on maybe a prayer so this is this is fix and I love it to have a project I can see now and no okay. In that time I will play this. So I'm really excited and happy about this. I'm working on my second album. I have a lot of pieces each with a Vera specialist story. And we have to to make another post production of course audio engineering, mixing and mastering. This is a huge part. It is an important part and I will Like to compose more pieces because I think I have five or six, this is not enough. And I would like to really start with meditative music with my Native American flute. And also maybe write some of the meditative lyrics, I can speak to, to the, our, the, to the, to the audience, in a small circle, not of course, 100 people or 50 people. And I like to make also the music for this of course, so I would like to compose something also in that style. And, and improvise. So this is my plan that I, I, I would like to to make more free things free improvising and, and more connecting with people again, I was so long just inside the room and flat and no connections and no concerts. Also, if you are playing classical concert, it's often really official, you know, you are on the stage and you have this big hole. And after that the hours in sitting really brave and beautiful dressed and nothing is allowed to sit and listen. And after that, please clap your hands. This was never my style. I was often stressed from that. And jazz is the best way this is more relaxed and be cool. And oh my gosh, you had a no it's not exactly the most beautiful nevermind this the moment and this happening at the moment. And people want to have you in your moment. Really? authentical Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I think that the that these these forms, these are the shapes from from make new music, meditative music, improvising, jazz. Give me more from this freedom, what I would like to have and what I would like to give to the people. Yes, these are my future plans. Fantastic. Sounds wonderful. Thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate it. It's lovely to meet you. And I was so happy that you make this project. I never ever heard before this and I thought, wow, this is so important. I think a lot of lot of women are outside. They have these problems. They have these issues. And I also say see that in my nearness. Nobody asked me about this. Yeah, nobody asked me about this. Yes. Okay. You are at home now. And yeah, okay. Nobody asked me. Hey, come on. When do you have your next concert? Or what are you doing? Some of the person say, wow, it's great. You got an eyeball during this. This is this is a huge thing that it's cool. But but not so much of feedback from this and not so much interesting. Because a lot of people also are not inside from this. Yeah. Cannot they cannot imagine. Yeah, this is your normal life now. Yeah, yes. People ask us still. Oh, at the weekend we make a big parties somewhere in the countryside in a nice house from 6pm to the next morning. And we would like that you are there and I say this is totally nice. Thank you so much, but I have a small child. So she she goes to bed at 7pm. And I'm sorry. Is not they forget, they forget it, that we are now parents and have a small child. So I think you have to the same or really the same situations. Yeah, also the auditors. Yes, absolutely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Mercedes Rodgers US claymaker + potter S2 Ep50 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome to Episode 50. My guest this week is Mercedes Rodgers, a clay maker and potter from Fort Walton Beach in Florida, USA. Mercedes is a mum of 3 sons. Mercedes studied a Degree in Art History and thought she would go into photography, but she was always drawn to clay, She was fascinated and influenced by a neighbour who was making tiles for her kitchen out of clay from the river bed. When she finished her degree she moved up to New York with her husband, Mercedes worked in art centre that had an amazing pottery studio where she was able to really delve in deep. She learned the craft in the traditional way of learning from others in an apprenticeship kind of way. In additional to her pottery, Mercedes also enjoys painting, photography, knitting, dying fibres and has taught pottery for many years, as well as owning a gallery, She feels deeply connected to the earth, turning to traditional methods to make charcoal from grape vines and ink from acorns and her kiln is powered by solar energy. She loves to try new things and be playful within her work. She loves how pottery has forced her to slow down and be patient, you can't rush the kiln or disaster ensues. **Please be aware this episode contains discussions around stillbirth + infant loss, PTSD, anxiety attacks + grief** Today we chat about how art and journaling helped Mercedes through the loss of her 1st son Conrad, appreciating the connection between the artist and the art they create through practical, functional objects and good old mum guilt gets a big mention. Take a look at Mercedes' marionettes Read about Ruth Duckworth 1000 Paper Cranes Mercedes - instagram / shop Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Episode 50. It's really exciting to be still hanging around after all this time, and thank you for sticking with me. My guest this week is Mercedes Rogers. Mercedes is a playmaker and a potter from Fort Walton Beach in Florida, United States and Mercedes is a mom to three boys. Mercedes studied a degree in art history and thought she would go into photography, but she was always drawn to clay. She was fascinated and influenced by a neighbor who was making tiles for her kitchen out of clay from the earth. When she finished her degree, she moved up to New York with her husband, she worked in an art center that had an amazing pottery studio, where she was really able to delve deep. She learned the craft in the traditional way, learning from others in an apprenticeship kind of way. In addition to her pottery, Mercedes also enjoys painting, photography, knitting, dyeing fibers and has taught pottery for many years. In addition to owning a gallery, she feels deeply connected to the earth, turning to traditional methods to make charcoal from grape vines and ink from acorns amongst other things, and Akun is powered by solar energy. She loves to try new things and be playful within her work. She loves her pottery has forced her to slow down and be patient. You can't rush the kiln or disaster in shoes. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around stillbirth and loss, PTSD, anxiety attacks and grief. Today we chat about how art and journaling helped Mercedes through the loss of her first son Conrad, appreciating the connection between the artist and the art they create through practical functional objects. And we give good old fashioned mum guilt. A bit of a mention music you'll hear today is from LM J, an Australian New Age ambient music trio featuring myself, my sister Emma, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy welcome to the podcast Mercedes. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Absolutely. So tell me a little bit about where you are in America. I live in Northwest Florida so the very northern western corner of Florida some people we jokingly call it La lower Alabama. So it's it's the south it's about as much southern as Florida can get not like like culturally is what I'm trying to say but it's really beautiful we I live like five minutes from the beach. It's just like crystal white sands you know the granite that's come down from the Appalachians and crystal clear water and beautiful river so it's really it's kind of like there's a place about an hour and a half down the coast from here that's called the Forgotten Coast. So I think when people think of Florida they have a very like Miami Tampa way over built up kind of vibe and yet here I think maybe because we're so close to Alabama, I don't know. It's just it's pretty like you know, Southern Sorry, sorry. What are you doing in here? Okay, well can you please go take it up with him? Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. I scheduled like this is great. We just lock it it's fine. It's not a problem it's all right. This is like so much this is so much mom life right where you're like yes, our normal routine is blah blah this should fit in perfectly and today he mapped until like five o'clock in the afternoon so of course now he's just like up rampaging my husband you know, I mean, this my husband he works remotely so he just gave it him like lock the door so hopefully we should be so good yeah, Northwest Florida. It's an OK place. I love the I love the environment here. Sometimes the politics in the southern culture is a little much and I miss the arts. I mean, there's not the biggest The Art scenes here, you know, yeah, right. Yeah. I noticed on your Instagram stories that you, you'd like to do a bit of camping and you're not very far from like woodlands and sort of really? It almost looks like you're in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, it's pretty primitive we there's a very large air force base here that has they call it the Eglin reservation. So it's like, I don't know, 1000s and 1000s of square miles of land that they don't do anything with. And it's been great on the beaches to they have huge swaths of completely undeveloped beaches because of the Air Force. So we can just go out there. Yeah, it's like 15 minute drive from our house and from you know, the relatively small city that we live in to just be in a primitive camping area. And it is, it's wonderful. I love it and being a potter. And my work is so grounded in dirt. Like I just I'm a very much I like being outside being that connection to nature really helps to fuel the work that I do. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What's the weather like there at the moment? Oh, it's so nice. It's been like in the high 60s, low 70s. That's about 20 degrees Celsius. So just beautiful weather. Yeah, I always like to gardening and yeah, I always like to ask my guests about whether I have this thing about, you know, other places in the world and what it's like and what the weather's like, I don't know, it's the environment really affects the way that we work too. That's what I thought I lived in upstate New York for a while and I didn't believe it as much then. But the transition from moving back down here, I really noticed the change in my work from the environment and just those influences. Yeah, like like in upstate New York, it gets very cold freezes intense amounts of snow. I mean, in the darkness, it's so much darker for longer and all the leaves fall off the trees and here we never even have a real winter. Right so here you know, it's never really that cold and and so the what I see every day is just it's very different because of the weather and the environment. Yeah, so I just noticed I went from carving like doing this graffito work of you know, barren trees on vessels to much more like fanciful mermaids and sea creatures and things like that. Like it was a big ship. It was no but it was it was big. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome so you mentioned there that you you're a potter, can you tell us about what you do? How you got into it? All that kind of stuff? Yeah. I feel like it just goes all the way back to the beginning. Yeah, so I'm predominantly a functional Potter. I mean, that's the way that I have made a living at this. But I love I love like the line in ceramics that line between functional and fine art. So I feel like that's something I'm always kind of playing with like putting little sculptures on my mugs are drawing or screen printing or making little sculptures that have some functional aspect to them that like maybe it's a sculpture of a mermaid but then she's like a jewel secretly a jewelry box or something like that, you know? Yeah. And so. So, the pottery, it's interesting. I got my degree was in art history. So I wasn't sure you know what I was going to do. I wasn't 100% Sure, like what medium I really thought it was good to go in to study I studied quite a bit of photography. But I was I've always been drawn to clay. Since I was young. I was always one of those kids like in the backyard digging up clay when I was an adolescent I lived near this woman who had was digging clay out of a string bed, made herself a wood fire kiln and then was making these tiles and tiling her kitchen. It was amazing. And I just remember being like as a child just in awe that you could take this dirt and make something so permanent. So I think that really stuck with me. And so then, while I was in college, I worked in an art center that had a pottery studio. And then when I got out of when I finished my degree, my husband moved up to New York to do his PhD studies and there was a amazing art center there and he you know, he was like, oh, you should go, you know, check it out and see. And I started, they had an amazing pottery studio there. And then that's when I really like, just delve in deep. So it wasn't something that I studied in university. But it was one of the things that I, I learned it more like in the old way of Craps, like through apprenticeships, and just like self driven study. Yeah. So again, going back to the old ways of, you know, the traditional ways of doing things, and which sort of ties into, I guess what you're saying before, like, you're drawn to the earth and making things it's like, the traditional pathways, I suppose, sort of ties in. Yeah. And, and I think, I mean, this is also that line between fine art and craft, right? Like, because fine art has this elevation in the history of art of like, you know, it's what's in the galleries, and it's what's possible. But the craftsmanship that's like, underneath that is the key, but you have to have the craft before you can have the fine art. You know. I'm just interested to ask you going down your art history route, I spoke to an art historian, an art historian from Adelaide on this program in season one, talk to Melanie Cooper, and she said, just what you've you've just piqued my interest, and I could be off the track here. But she said a similar thing about how fine art, you know, is the thing in the museums and whatever. And then craft got, like a really bad rap, like the women can do the craft, the arts and crafts sort of thing is that that's sort of where you're coming from. I think that yes, when I was studying art history in school, I definitely, that was one of the big things that I picked up on. And kind of just like the, like, if you if you look through our history, it is predominantly men in all of the art forms that that are the majority of the people that are in the museums that are in the galleries, right. And then the crafts, not in all cultures, but in a lot of them. It is like the women in the those once it's a utilitarian, somehow it loses its worth. And then I just personally thought that, in worst for society, it's almost the other way around, right? Like, we need well designed objects that we use every day, like, like, I always think, like my work is like, just like simple beauty for every day. Right? Like I'm a big coffee and tea drinker. Right? So that like handmade mug full of coffee or tea in the morning, it's just like, there's, there's something like so whole about that functional experience. For me, that's also beautiful. And the work of art. Absolutely, yes, I love that. It's like you can celebrate this experience and take this moment, to appreciate everything that's gone into, you know, the thing you're holding in your hand and the vessel that you're experiencing your drink from, it's like there's this massive connection with, you know, where it's coming from and how it got made. And what's the story behind the person that made it and you know, it's just this huge cultural connection. Yeah. And I think maybe our culture has got so far away from that, I think that that's also one of like, my earlier memories of like, seeing between commercially produced products and handcrafted things. My, my grandmother, I love this story, my my grandfather raised horses, and one of my grandmother's friends, her husband was a potter. And so her friend like horse riding horses, and my grandmother loved pottery, so they got the women got the husbands to trade. And so my grandmother has all these beautiful pots by this potter has been very gifted, actually, when you were talking about the influences, that people who influence me, I think his work had such a profound influence on me as a child because I could remember, you know, being with my grandmother in her kitchen, cleaning the plates and the bowls and putting them in, in you know, in the dishwasher and being very careful with them because we knew the person you know, you can feel the finger marks and like somebody that we know created these objects versus like at home, you know, with like the plastic plates or the you know, slip cast mass produce things like there was just a very different feeling in the weight in the whole act of how we use them. And I think that that just really kind of just a huge impact on my life in general. You know, I love in my home as much as I can having things that are either like, old or hands, you know, handcrafted like my, a lot of our furniture was is from my husband's ancestors were from Germany and they were all Woodworkers. So we have like this civil war and all this old like handmade, you know, like a headboard that his grandfather cut down the tree. Yeah, right. It was a wedding gift, right? In the time we like in order to like, ask the person to marry you like this is how you did it. And we're just well, with Amazon, right? We're in like such a different world now. So I think that part of what I do as an artist is like, remembering that and also trying to share that with people, you know, continue sharing the craft and teaching people and yeah, absolutely going forward. Yeah, I love that. It's so important, isn't it? Because we do we just get caught up in this fast, fast culture. Like we need things right now and everything if it doesn't, you know, if you break something, you just throw it out and get a new one because it costs more to repair something that does to buy new and like this whole consumerism is just out of control, isn't it? Yeah. And you think like, we're a potter. I mean, it takes it's such a slow process. I mean, it takes like weeks and weeks for one mug to go from like that ball of clay to something that you can drink out of, you know, it's very, and if you try to rush it, that's the best part. If you try to rush it, it just explodes in the kiln. I mean, it's one of those things like you just you can't, you can't force it to be fast, because you cannot do it yet. It's like it's forcing you to be slow and take your time and be patient. Have you ever struggled with that patients? Like are you naturally a patient person? Or is that really challenging for you? Oh, no. I mean, that's, I think, part of like, maybe the universe, like made me a product that because I'm not patient. And I come like from a long line of very impatient people. Like it's ridiculous. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm always like, Okay, if I rush this, I mean, yes, it really has helped to be, you know, like, I have to be slow or it's just not gonna work. Yeah. So cool. I love that. It's like, yeah, the universe sent you this. So you could just appreciate you know, I love that. You said before about, you could feel the finger marks in the, the plates and the cups. There's a piece of pottery that my mum brought been back from a holiday once and it's it's a fruit bowl. It's beautiful. And it's hand painted. And, and I picked it up one day and realized I'd put my thumb in the same spot as there was a thumb mark. And I just had this like shiver like, oh, like it was just this amazing moment of like, I'm touching where someone has physically made this and my hand is right where their hand was. It was just incredible. I'm getting shivers now thinking about it was just yeah, that connection. That connection is energizing. Yeah. When Yes, I 100% agree. I love Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I think that also that's part of in a way like what has always drawn me to the arcs when I think about it, like thinking about the people who influenced me. I don't know if you know the sculptor Ruth Duckworth. Have you heard of her? She did a lot of she was a ceramicist. And mostly in porcelain, and made these like very abstract sculptures. And but they so I only saw them in history books. And they were so perfect. Like I just why shiny, beautiful porcelain. And the first time I was in the Museum of Modern craft, I think in Manhattan. And they had a exhibit of her work. And I saw, I got to see some of the larger installation pieces. And as I walked up in the close, there were all these little cracks and imperfections in the pieces. And I might I was just like, it was that same moment of connection of like, here's this person that I've idolized, but also is just a human being who has the same problems in her kilns probably that I have in mind kills, right just like that. That connection of human the human struggle. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? Yeah, it's interesting that that we put, and I'm not saying this in a bad way, but we we put people up on a pedestal, it's like, we can't do that. That's unachievable. But then we realized that at the end of the day, they're still human beings. And it's like, we're all going through the same struggles. I think that that's what's great about your podcast, too, right? It's for us artists to realize, like, you know, we create these things from our heart and our soul when we put out in the world to see. But what people see is that finished product, right? They don't see the hours and hours of labor and struggle that goes into it. And I think that especially as moms that's all reminding each other of like, how many days we don't get into the studio to do the work or how many interruptions that we get, but we still somehow you know, collectively figure how to get through it, you know? Yeah, that is so tricky. Talking about your connection to the earth, I had a look on your Instagram, you've played around with making ink from acorns and making charcoal from grape vines. Tell us about that. It's really cool. Yeah, so I think when you know when people ask me, you know, what is your main medium or like, you know, what kind of artists are you? It's always hard for me because I do love to try to try new things. And so, oh, I've done a lot of work in, like fiber work, I worked on a sheep farm for a while. And so I learned some about natural dyeing there. And then that so then recently I was getting interested in sewing and trying to not spend a bunch of money on materials. So I was like buying white sheets from the secondhand stores. And then I was trying to dye them with these organic materials. And then that just like spiral, right, like into the rabbit hole of all these, so then I started looking around where I live, to figure out like, what pigments are naturally available. And the tannins in acorns, I mean, that are everywhere where I live, are very easy to you know, you just have to boil them down and boil them down. And then you're left with a really nice ink that, you know, if you leave it sitting in the sun over time it fades. But like in a sketchbook or a journal. I mean, it really is color fast, and it drives really nicely. So that's wonderful. And then yes, the great fine charcoal, that was just another it was like a recipe, I found a book and it was so easy. I just took a little altoids tin, cut the pieces of vine, put them in the tin and then put the pin in my fireplace. And then after like three hours pulled it out, and I had nice, nice piece of the charcoal. Just love that. It's again, it's just that patience waiting for things to happen. And you know, not rushing. Yeah, like just the playful nature of like, what I think that that's like what I get out of being an artist, right? It's just like that continuous curiosity. And my husband, my husband's background is a chemical engineer. So chemistry, like he's really deep into the chemistry. So it's very interesting. For us like together like, you know, when I go on these these missions to make a coordinate, you know, he's breaking it down on the molecular level and trying to figure out like, you know, the best way to get it to be the richest color. It's It's really wonderful. And exciting way to look. You know, art science and art together. Hmm, that's it, because it Yeah, it's there's so much science. That's thing my kids forget when I talk about let's do some science when we're homeschooling. So let's do some cooking. It's like, that's not science, like Yeah, it is. Because if you get your recipe wrong, it doesn't work. So yeah, that is a really cool connection to have. Yeah, do you and can also talk about your Marionette Bender that that describes my artistic and my bender. So I think that came out of COVID. And being in Northwest Florida were I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you see from the news about what life is like here. But I mean, people really just pretended like COVID wasn't a thing. It was really it was really emotionally, kind of difficult, because I just felt so gaslit a lot of the time. And so like for the first you know, like the first shutdown, things were pretty serious. And, you know, my community and friends like took it pretty seriously. But slowly as the COVID fatigue went on, like people just got less and less, I don't know what the word is, like had less and less self control, or were just more and more tired of, of the, the different waves, you know. And so, again, my husband being a scientist, like he's very much like, we're just going to follow the CDC guidelines, you know, this is how we're going to do it. So that last Omicron wave when pretty much everybody around me was just doing whatever and my little family is back in on nucular thing I was like well, I guess if I can't hang with my friends, I will just make myself some friends and so that's how I started making marionettes and entertaining the kids you know, but they're, they're less entertained by it than I am. I'm really having a lot of fun with it. It has really like it's really like I get I think this is why I love the play in art because that it's really like planted the seed for this very this next step in the sculptural pieces that I'm making that I think you probably saw those on Instagram too that it's like they're almost like I'm imagining them as like altar pieces that you hang on the wall so it's like the human form and that torso area you could put like a candle or a stone or you know leaf or something you know, whatever thing you want to be in there your rings. And then yeah, it will have like the marionette legs and I don't know I'm imagining like some wire pieces I haven't I need to fire a tail load full of stuff. But we it's spring break here right now. So I'm really just in KidZone. So but yeah, that's the marriage and I'm interested to see where it goes. I'm really hoping that that is going to be my next I haven't done any solo shows since the kids have been born. And so I'm hoping when my two year old is going to start in like a preschool next year and so I'm really good Well this year in August, so what I'm really hoping is that I will have a solid body of work I'm imagining those sculptural pieces I'm sure some kind of functional piece will come along and and then some paintings kind of around that that subject, but we'll see right now just a dream. You know, I have to I have lots of big dreams, and then we see what really manifests itself in the end. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I've got to say I'm a bit. I mean, it's one of those things that really freaked me out. I have like a, I don't say it's not a phobia. I just look at them. And I go, Oh, the same with them. You know, those dolls that people have on there when they do ventriloquist dummies. Yeah, freaked me out a lot, too. So when I saw them, I was like, I feel a bit funny, but I'm gonna watch this, because, you know, this is Mercedes work. I'm gonna get into this. But at the same time, I could just feel my skin falling just a little bit. A little bit weird, right? Because you're like making these sculptures and trying to like breathe life into these like inanimate objects. Right? So I think there isn't something like inherently kind of creepy to them. And they have a particular look about them too. Like it's that that traditional? I don't know what the word is. I don't know what I don't know what to describe them as, but they look they have these look about them. It's just me. Don't mind me. All right. I think you're probably not the only one. I'm sure that other people are very. Oh, goodness. But you know how you said about the, like, their, their bellies being like, open. I sort of when I first saw it, it reminded me like of a fireplace of like a, I don't know, that's just where my head went. When I first saw them. I was like, well, that's cool. Anyway, there you go. I can see that. Well, I definitely imagine having candles in some of them. Hmm. So I mean, that's what I love to about like that, you know, like, making functional work or making less representative work is I love like the eye of the beholder, right. I love hearing. Like, when I first when I first started my first real like selling artwork was at a farmers market I then did for like, I think four years straight, where I make my pottery, and then I would take it to the farmers market to sell it. And I always love that interaction with people like hearing what they thought something that I made was where I wouldn't like, you know, like a little tray that I'd imagine it's like a ring holder or a salt dish, you know, and they're like, Oh, my rings would look really beautiful on that, or that would be great. So you know, like they see it as something completely different than that then sparks another idea for me of like, oh, it could be a you know. Yeah, absolutely. And also want to mention that your kiln is solar powered, which is really cool. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big dream that I really never thought would, would happen. But there's been a pretty big push here in Florida. It's so weird. Again, like the politics. We only have Gulf power, which is our power comes from coal, which of course is not good for the environment. And there has been a big push from the solar companies because Florida, there's so much sun, it's a great place to harvest solar. But yeah, we went bankrupt. So we got it at a good time where it was like we could get a decent return for the solar that we produced that we don't use. And it is really exciting to know that I'm not burning coal when I fire my kilns but I am you know, harvesting the energy from the sun and, and using that because it killed I mean, it's amazing. I fire this count the 2300 degrees Fahrenheit, which I don't know what that is. And whoa, Celsius, but it's like it's like volcanic temperatures in there. That's about 1260 degrees Celsius. It's a lot of energy that it takes. Yeah, that's insane. Isn't that the sort of thing? What would something have to be to actually just disintegrate something like, because that's really hard, and your stuffs not disintegrating? Like that's amazing. Well, it depends on where you put in there. I mean, definitely can disintegrate things, but that's like where the chemistry comes in. Right? Because you have to have the right play body to fire you know, that fires at that temperature that ensures at that temperature because essentially what we're doing is we're creating a stone it's called stone layer, because you're putting it through a process that on the molecular level, it becomes a stone stone. That's really fascinating. Yeah, I think that that's what's the hook for me. You know, this idea that you pick a material that's so malleable and soft and just very easily returned. To the earth when you start out with it, and at the end, it's something that's so solid and permanent. I mean, if you think about the things that laugh through the Millennium that we dig up from other cultures often it is shards of pottery. Yes, that's so true, isn't it? You know that we're digging up plastic from from an era anyway, I'm digressing. You briefly mentioned your children there. Tell us a little bit more about your family? Well, my husband, James, we have been together. Oh my gosh, it's 20 years now a lot like our whole adult life. And so we were together for 10 years. And then we started having kids. And so we have three sons and Conrad, he would be 10 years old this year, if he was still with us, and then at Red are middle one is six. And then Arthur, the one who came charging in here earlier is two is quite a little. He is the sweetest little firecracker. They're wonderful. They really just have brought so much joy to my life. Yeah, there was a, again, on Instagram, I'm videoing, again, the Instagram store crews when I'm going to chat to people. So yeah, that was if I keep saying that, but when you're you're painting some mugs, and I'm guessing it's your two year old who's sitting next to you. And he's having a go as well. And it's in fast motion. And you can see, you know, he's painting on his little play, and then suddenly falls down and something happens. And then he paints underneath the plane. It's just such a sweet little thing to watch. It's just so busy doing his painting, it must be so nice to be able to involve them in what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's really the only way that I've been figured able to figure out how to continue working, because I do have some help. My mom just lives around the corner, and my husband's dad lives down the street. So that's really nice. But I am I am with them, you know, all the time. So and I struggle, like, you know, I go through these phases where like, Oh, I'm gonna get up before them and work. But then somehow they like, figure out that I'm awake and come in there. You know, it's like, I don't know. So yeah, so that's what I'm always trying to devise a way for them to, like, be part of be part of the process. And you know, also learning along, you know, yeah, absolutely. When they see your work, I guess they're, they're well aware that you're making. You're making things that are going to be used in homes and other people buy them. And it's sort of what I'm getting at is like, it's, it's great that they can see that you're contributing to the world, I suppose, outside of their own home. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, they're very aware. And one of the main places that I sell my artwork is a place called artist Fano here in Fort Walton, that she sells all local art and our six year old, he's actually started making beads and making necklaces, and he has a little line of stuff that he's selling in our store, too. So yeah, I mean, we really do, you know, I really do try to, you know, show them yes, the process and where the things are going. And, you know, like, let's give them their kits. I don't know if you have this experience, but they just don't want to part with anything, my children, they just want to keep everything. So trying to talk to them about like, you know, I'm making this to sell and it's going to go out into the world, and we're not going to keep everything that we make, you know, and then seeing that process, I think is really, really good for them. Hmm, that's true, isn't it? I hadn't thought of that. That's, that's cool. It's just amazing to me to how much I see them learning in the studio, for example, Everett, who's six now I think it was for his fourth birthday, which seems extremely young to me. As someone who has taught pottery throughout the years, I decided to make little sippy cups for all the kids who are coming to the birthday party to like give them as gifts and he was you know, in the studio with me one making them and then I made a bunch of extra ones, you know, just because in pottery, things break or get broken. And then I just decided I was like, you know, I think I'm going to just let him glaze these because these are his gifts to his friends. I took some videos of it I was shocked at how he there's a tool like this clamp tool that I use that you hold the pot with to dip it down into the glaze bucket. And how this four year old who had been in the studio with me for the last four years watching me could just reel that tool. He glazed all the cups. He did not break a single cup. I mean, I had to like still wipe the bottoms down and stuff, but it just it really hit me how much he had been learning and taking in that I didn't even realize he was born. If that makes sense, that's it like the first time he ever did it. He just knew how to do it because he'd watched you do it for so many years. That is awesome, awesome story you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman. Want to talk about Conrad a little bit. So you said he would have been 10 at the moment? Can you share with us a little bit about him and how he's affected your work and maybe continues to affect your work? Yes. So well, Conrad, he was our first son and he died when I was 33 weeks pregnant. So that would be turned to stillbirth. So he, I mean, he was our everything. It was one of those things. You know, I don't know, I think a lot of people of our generation go through this where James and I had like, spent a decade like, trying to build our careers and you know how to get our life together and doing air quotes there. And then we're like, okay, like, it's time to have kids. And it was just like that really easy thing where it was like, two months later, we were pregnant. I was, you know, like this just picture of health birth, there was like no signs of any problems. We were just so excited to be bringing him in the world Captain Awesome, is actually what our like nickname for him was before we had a name. And, and then and I at that time, I owned an art gallery and teaching studio. So everybody at the gallery in the studio. I mean, everybody was just so excited about this new life, you know, new life, like everybody's so excited about it. And so I think then, I'm here he was already like a big part of my creative process I was doing these watercolor is when I really started painting and watercolor. And I did this whole kind of, like creative series about a little boy and a bunny rabbit costs known as a little boy and a bunny rabbit, and they just like went on these adventures and these watercolor paintings, and I don't know, I just I kind of maybe this sounds really weird, but I felt like he was like, you know, this little life in me like, you know, I don't know, I don't know how to put it into words. But like, kind of we were co creating these things. And then yes, after he passed away, I mean, it just shattered my whole existence. There was just, it was so incredibly unexpected. I just I don't even know. Like, I it was one of those things where I didn't even really understand stillbirth was a thing. You know what I'm saying? Like living in this western culture. I just assumed like, we were gonna get pregnant, we're gonna have this baby we had. Like I said, everybody was so excited about the baby, I had three baby showers thrown for beer, like celebrations of life type of things. You know, we had like, like, I wasn't wanting to, like, need to set up a nursery or do any of that stuff. But we definitely were in that like nesting, preparing, so excited to be with this little person. And yeah, and then just one morning, I woke up and actually, at night before I went to bed, I had like, massive fetal movement. I remember because my mother lived in California at the time, and I was like, trying to video my belly. So I could like send it to her and be like, Oh, the baby's going wild, you know. And then the next morning, when I woke up, there wasn't much movement. And James who is very, like, conscious of what's going on, he's in like, in the mornings, you know, we would often like lay there and he would have his hands on my stomach and like, feel the baby moving or whatever, and even comment, he was like, oh, maybe it's really still this morning. And I was like, Yeah, Miss I just sleeping or stuff that he was really, I think even said he was like real wild last night. And then as the day progressed, I still like wasn't feeling any movement. And so didn't know I didn't want to like freak, it just didn't seem like it just didn't seem like how could this what is happening, you know, and then then by the afternoon, I just, I was actually watching one of my friends, kids, like they were at a soccer game, and I guess it was like babysitting them or whatever. And I was sitting there. And I had like, you know, they demonstrate to do the kick counts, and you know that I was like, Okay, I'll get up and I'll go watch the kids and I'll like drink a big glass of orange juice, and he'll definitely be moving around by them. And so I'm sitting like, at the soccer field, and I still didn't have the field with it. And it was so strange. It was like, right about the time that I had decided that I was going to have to call the midwife and say like, I feel like something's wrong. I need to have this checked out. James called me and he said, I feel like something's wrong. Are you okay? And I just like broke down. I was like, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Like feels really weird. I think I'm gonna go up to the office and have them check things out. And I was you know, because of that like, just Like blissful naivety I think I was like you don't have it's Friday afternoon like, you don't have to worry about coming with me. I'll just go by myself. I'm sure everything's fine. You know, he's like, No way. I'm definitely coming with you come home and pick me up. And we'll go out there. And we drove over there. And yes, she did the sonogram. And like, I don't know, if legally, she couldn't tell me or if she just didn't want to, or whatever was, but she was like, Oh, this machine isn't very good. Let's just go to the hospital. And it's just like, I knew I just knew. But like, what? I don't know. I mean, it's just like, even now like saying it's like, such as just a surreal a shocking experience. It was the day before my birthday, which even sounds like maybe selfish but weird, right? And I just remember being like, This is so weird. I have to go to my birthday party tomorrow, like how was this like that, like, out of body out of mind experience. So we got to the hospital. And they did a sonogram and you know, is just so weirdly an impersonal where they're like, Okay, that's, you know, shutting down a machine is like, there's what the baby's heartbeat supposed to be, there's no heartbeat. And I'm just like, I'm gonna do I don't know, I just like, I was like, I just was like, I gotta go to the bathroom. Like, got up in the bathroom, and just like laid on the floor and was just didn't know you know what to do. And then it was just a weird deal of like days, where they, I mean, this is why I'm so thankful for medical intervention, right? Because in the past, like, you would just have to wait. And he was a four and a half pound baby, like he was a fully full, I mean, he could have been born and lived, if we would have known whatever had like, we still don't really know for sure what happened to him. So we had to go through all of that. And induction and it took a couple days of like, I they tried to induce me and then didn't work. So I had to go home. And then I had to go back to the hospitals and find like this form. And there's just so much like, I think that like we're learning about this type of grief, because our society has gone so far away from the I mean, it's like, it feels like so unnatural, right for the children to die before the parents and things like that. But so they were they had, um, they have volunteers that will come and take photographs. So they had some A, and at the time, I'm like, I don't want any of this. I remember one nurse coming into the room and being like, she said something I can't remember verbatim, but something about, you know, what a beautifully handsome baby we had. And I just wanted to like screaming her face and be like, Yeah, except for He's not breathing. Yes. You know, he looks like baby doll. But he isn't alive, you know. And so I really thought it they are pretty adamant at least at this hospital that the parents should like see the baby and hold the baby, I guess they have figured out has something to do with you know, the way our brains process the trauma later. And I was really, I was really reluctant like I just I think I was in such deep shock right? I was still very much in the life this is a real you know, if I don't maybe if I don't see it, it will be real. But they did they got me to hold them and it was sweet. My my baby shower that the people from the Art Gallery through for me, they had made me this beautiful quilt that everybody had like drawn pieces like they had drawn on each square, and then somebody who made quilts like sewed it all together. So we had like, wrapped him up in that. And that was what he was cremated in which I think kind of helped me feel a little bit better. Like he was like, you know, like, wrapped in love. And yeah, and then. And then after we came home. I mean, I was just incapacitated, I was absolutely essential. I still don't really know how my gallery just didn't close down. And to be real honest with you. I didn't literally I mean, in retrospect, I realized, like spent the next two years like trying to burn into the ground. Like, I don't know how anybody dealt with me. I mean, I was such a like, post traumatic stress, fight or flight. Like, I just I don't even I don't even I wonder still. I mean, I have really good friends I guess. And that's why they're so my friends. But I was just like, a ball of just like fear and anger and confusion. And I just at one point, I finally realized it was like my life has become, I just want to get through the day so I could get back into my bed. And like not deal with life like that. That was like there's about a two year period. And it deeply affected my art. But at the same time, it was art that brought me through it, it was journaling. I did so much journaling, I would go to this park, which at the time I had dubbed my sadness park and I would just sit and cry and drink coffee and journal and throw watercolor paint on things and I mean, it's nothing that's profound or that I would ever want to really like show other people but for me, that journaling process really like helped me kind of move through the process. And then I think the other thing that was so incredibly difficult for me is I have been teaching art as almost as long as I've been making art in In some facet or another, like I really deeply care about that, like the transfer and passing down of the knowledge and I had such a strong aversion to being around children, I've always like I have a very childlike behavior yummy. You see with my Marionette dolls, like I just, I love hanging out with children, I love their overall just pleasantness and wildness and, and creativity and lack of self doubt. But then all of a sudden, I just, I just didn't I mean, being around children was so incredibly painful for me, I just, I couldn't do it, it was a very, very strange, difficult feeling. And I think it's something like it will never like, he will always be present. And he will always be a part of our family. And it's something that will has changed who I am, and I will always be this different version of myself now because of it. But then we had, you know, eventually we had a happy, you know, turn of events, and Everett was born. And then not really, I mean that. I think him being born as much as like no child can ever replace another child is him being born really was a lot of healing for me. And then I didn't even realize it. But then when Arthur was born, so many years later, I think even more I was able to be present and really like, come to a greater level of peace, where it's not like I don't you know, I don't know if you've ever suffered with PTSD. But it is just, I didn't even understand I had before on my diet. I never really experienced panic attacks or anxiety or anything like that. And so it was just earth shattering for me all of a sudden, to kind of have my mind just working against me all the time. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it's a heavy story. That's, but it's like in our life and death. Yeah. And I think like, like we spoke about before we started recording, I think it's, it is so valuable, if people can share their stories for other people to be able to hear it and relate to it. And, you know, maybe, I think I just think the more we talk about things more, we normalize things like the PTSD, like the grief, you know, any sort of mental illness, like, you know, I talked to a lot of moms with postnatal depression, I experienced that myself, anxiety, I think the more we just are able to talk about it, the more it becomes a part of life that is normal, like because it is a normal part of life. But then there's this part of society that makes us go, oh, no, no, no, no, you can't talk about that. We don't want to hear about that. Yeah, you just had a new baby, you should be so happy you should be. You should be having all of these experiences. Why are you not happy? What is wrong with you that you're not celebrating this? You know? And it just really, yeah, it's a horse really takes away from, like, what's really happening with us? And I think I always think of it as like, if I had my leg chopped off, people would treat me in a certain way, right? Like not like, like, like, I would no longer be able bodied. And there are things going on. And I think when people are going through extreme emotional duress and trauma, because it's not a visible thing. I mean, sometimes I wish that I had a shirt that would be like, I've been traumatized. You probably want to give me some space. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, this this thing about it being in your head, you know, is it real? Is it not real? Because people can't see it, you know, all that kind of questioning from from outsiders, instead of just trusting that we like that, that, that we're having a hard time and that it's hard. And that's okay. I think that's the other thing, too, like, I find so much now in my conversations with people like around the holidays and different times, you know, when we're supposed to feel a certain way. And I'm so much of a place is like, I hope you're happy today. And if you're not, that's okay, too. You know, these are even with the kids, you know, my two year old right now is very much into like, you hurt my feelings. I'm angry at you, you know, and then it's like, my, I feel like my mom always wants to kids like not to ever be angry and not in and I'm like, we just need to bail in my opinion. let their emotions be seen and validated. Okay, I hear that you're angry with me? Do you want to talk to me about why you're angry? Or do you want some time to think you know, like, we're all going to be angry, we're going to be sad. We're going to have these negative feelings sometimes. But also, we don't have to say that's what I feel like, for myself. Like, I was in such a horrible, dark, sad, sad place. But I didn't stay thank God. I didn't stay there forever. Right? Like I came. And I think even if I hadn't had children, eventually I would have come out of that place. But grief takes time. And people need to allow others to have the time and not be like when are you going to be better? When are you No? Yeah. Well, when are you going to be how you used to be? Well, I'm never going to be how I used to be a new version new season. No experiences, just let me you know, if you think that I need to be that same person, we probably aren't going to be that person. So now Yeah, that's so true. And there is no time limit because people experience everything so differently. You know, it's just there is no and see that 100 I feel like the, if you're not an I don't want to this is a big generalization now. But if you if you're not an artist, if you're, you know, an academic who's an accountant, or, you know, someone that thinks very rationally and straightforward about things, your PhD in chemical engineering. Yeah, yeah, this expectation that when you do this, this and this, you will get this outcome, and everything has a method that's been done before, and you know, what's going to happen? And it's like, no, all this stuff has its own way of happening in its own time. And there's no right or wrong. And I think that can be really hard for some people to, to get their heads around. Because it's so different to the way that they used to experiencing life. Yeah, they want it to be a formula. Grief isn't, you know, now? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I definitely don't wish that experience on anyone. And I still, I mean, every day, I wish that he was here. And I wonder always, you know, what, what would the other boys like? Like, what would Everett's life be like, as a middle child with an older sibling, I have a nephew who is three months older than Conrad would be. And so when and we live close to them, and so whenever I see them all together, I just, it's you know, I'm always in my peripheral kind of imagining him in those moments, you know, and how much it would change the dynamic of our of our lives. With your six year old and your two year old, being a mother has changed the way you approach your work and all your outcomes how you expect these things? Yeah. Is that is that all moms and all career things I can remember I have a really good friend too. She's a painter. And we got we we actually became friends she had to, she had two baby girls that died in utero. And so that kind of like, is like how, like, we became friends with the arts. But then when we realized we had this shared experience it like, you know, was someone to go through that hard time with that was having similar social reactions, if that makes sense. Like, like, when once we did both get pregnant again, neither of us wanted any baby things. Like I did not want any baby things in my home until there was a baby in the home, right? And I remember my mother in law was like, so distraught about this and, and but then I had Anna and she was like, no, she was having the same feelings. I'm like, this isn't irrational, right? But I can remember we got pregnant with our boys who were born three days apart. And we would go to we lived like down the road from each other. So we would go on these morning blocks a lot. And we would spend all this time talking about how when we had our children are living babies, it was not going to change the way that our careers were going. And we were definitely going to make sure that we set aside time and we had all these, you know, I always joke that, like, pregnant moms are the best moms because we're so delusional about what the reality of being a parent is really going to be like, right? We're just so dreamy about what it is. And then going through the experience. She has three boys now living and yeah, I mean, both of us. We talk she lives in Japan right now. And we we tried to Skype, you know, for awhile, it was like every week, but we you know, we tried to talk pretty regularly and we kind of already each other's like, supports system of like, you'll get back in the studio again, soon, you know, where we have a journal that we like, send back and forth to each other to just kind of like, keep it going. Because yes, having kids, it takes so much time and energy, you know, so with the other two boys and especially like over COVID When I was like the old, you know, the main person, I never imagined as a parent, that I would be with my children 24/7 I always imagined that I would have more external babysitters, and family members and people that could be there with the kids too, because I just think it's important for their development. You'll see how other people navigate the world, not just me and my husband. So yeah, it really I mean having the children well, to be honest with you. I closed the Galerie down after Edward was born, he was like, four months old. I can just remember James, I would have, you know, I would go into work and relieve him. James has always worked from home. So like at home with the baby, and then he'd be calling me at work. And I can hear ever like crying in the background, he's like, I can't get him to take this bottle. I don't know what to tell you, I don't bottle feed them, I nursed him, I don't know how to give him a Bob, you know. And I can just remember one point sitting in the gallery and just being like the two people that I love the most in the world or at home suffering. Because I want to do this thing. And maybe I'm a creative person, maybe I can just think of another way to do this, that works better for my family. And so that's when I made the decision that I would get a different house and that I would move the studio into the house and be more focused on the parenting thing for right now. I mean, my first, you know, 12 or 13 years of being an artist were very driven, eating, sleeping, dreaming about our all the time. But I think after Conrad dining, and not getting to experience his life, more than those nine months that I was pregnant with him, I just wanted to I do want to be with my kids as much as I possibly can. And especially in these little years. I mean, it gets exhausting, I'm not trying to glorify it, you know, when you're trying to go to the bathroom, and their fingers are under the door, and you're just like, you're so worn down and exhausted, I definitely have a lot of those moments too. But I just, they're not going to need me this, I already see it right, like the six year old, like he does not need me nearly as much. And there's going to be a time when they don't want to come climb in the bed with me and they don't want to snuggle me and there's gonna change. And so I think that like, I have been willing to put a lot of my studio time on hold, so that I can be with them. And that it's been a pretty conscious decision. I mean, my husband, I kind of go back and forth about it. Like if I'm going to take on a big commission like I do. Some production work for like historic Pensacola like art gallery, gift shops. And a lot of times those will be like a lot, a lot of pieces that all consistently have to be the same, like relatively same size and shape. And that is not something I'm really good at, like that type of precision. And also working on any deadline with kids is really hard. So that's when we kind of like go like now at before ever I take any larger Commission, we kind of look at both of our schedules and say like, is this something that I can realistically do? And we we definitely try to value a time over money. Like we're in a comfortable position where like, you know, our our we have a decent house, we couldn't get enough food. And so we would prefer to spend less, you know, more time family time and have less money. That'd be like rushing around and fighting the clock and, you know, making it more difficult for the kids because at the end like it just stresses us all out if we don't if we try to cram too many things in not enough time. Absolutely. And yeah, it impacts everyone then doesn't it just stay home and how everyone's feeling about life? I think that's like as a as a parent. And as an artist like that is one of the hardest things, right? Because especially I feel like a big part of my happiness is tied into my creative time. Right? So that's the mental conversation they have internally, it's not always 100% About the money either. It's about like I gain, like this is where being an artist and like the financial aspect, like all that stuff gets so intermingled and weird, right? Because there is some like, personal fulfillment that comes out of creating those things, too. And like, how do you put a value on that? Oh, yeah, that's a big one. I've found the last few people that I've spoken to, for the podcast, this, this value has come up a lot this this concept of how society values places value on something, and it's just so money driven. It's all about the money. It's like, if you can't sell that and have $1 figure attached to it, then it's less value than you know, I really frustrates me. Yeah, conversation and I think that maybe because I own the gallery, and oh my gosh, when I first opened the gallery, it was quite ridiculous. I might not have had the best business plan ever. And we had like a 200 square foot revolving gallery that changed about every other month and then like a retail space that sold all like kind of local handmade goods and then a very large art studio and like teaching studio. And I hadn't really done the math on how much money I needed the revolving gallery to make I don't know why I originally just thought about it kind of as this fun experimental art space like coming out of New York and coming back down here like I really wanted that right. But very quickly, I realized that like we have to have something that we can sell like, it's really cool for someone to like come in here and hang a bike from the ceiling and paint a mural on the wall and do like whatever the thing is that they're feeling at the time. But if we don't have something to sell, then then how am I going to keep the space open and like riding that line right between like commodification, and just expressing ourselves and being. So that's where James and I have come to a place now, where when I'm coming up with some because I've done some wild projects, like after the BP oil spill, I've made this thing called the SOS security blanket, which was like a community art project around pollution. And there's no way that's making any money, like it totally was just like a heart project that I needed to do to process what had happened to our, our land to our you know, our environment. And so that's what so that's something else that him and I look at together is like, how much time like do you think this is going to take? And like, is this something that you're doing because of your love? Or your need of expression? Or is it something that's going to make money, and it's nice to kind of have that partition, right, and it's a freedom to be able to say like, well, I'm going to do this project, even if nobody pays any attention to it. And I'm just doing it for me, I'm doing it, but I'm going to do these other things, you know, to sell in this gallery, or to sell in this gift shop or to you know, for this coffee shop, or whatever I'm doing afford, and that's where the money is going to come from. Hmm. So it's a it's a good balance. Yeah, yeah. Did you find in your previous conversations like that people are saying, like, they want to do things. And but they feel like they can't because? Because if you can't make money off of it, then it's not worth the time. Yeah, not so much they can it the judgment that other people place on them for choosing to do that. Or, you know, an example that I give, I can't remember now, and it's really bad. But one of the mums I spoke to back in season one, she had her mother in law, right was babysitting her sister in law's child, and would do that quite happily, because the mum was going to work and act like a day job, right? In an office doing whatever. But she wouldn't babysit her children, because mom was just fluffing about doing her art. Right? So that judgment that comes, you know, that's not a serious job. That's, you know, that's not a real job, you're just fluffing about it's like, is that how society really sees creatives? Like, how bad is the first you know? And I think it kind of even goes back to the early part of this conversation with like, form or function, right? Like how people view the worth of what we do. But in the end of the day, like, if it worked for us creatives, what would we have? Who would design the cars who designed the computers? Who would make the television programs and like every night clean? Everything is the world that we live in? I don't know, how has it come to this valued the thing? I have said this many times in these podcasts. So apologies if you've heard this story before, but in Australia during COVID with the lock downs, right? We had, the movement between the states was quite limited. You weren't allowed across the borders, it was really quite full on it was, you know, probably a bit much to be honest. But football teams were Australian rules football, right? They were allowed to cross borders, they were allowed to go and play football wherever they wanted. But it was ridiculous, you know, and it was all the arts was shutting down. People couldn't go on tours with their, you know, bands, music, whatever, that was all shut down. But these these footballers, could just go do whatever they liked. And it just really showed the stark division in our culture. And I've talked to other people around the world and similar things, you know, sport is way up here. And that's again here, but it's like, who's making all the shows that you're watching while you're in lockdown? Who's creating content? Who's, like you said, physically designing cars and building houses and, like everything you can touch and see and feel has been made by somebody creative. You know, I think society just just makes me like get on this bandwagon. It makes me so good. It's legitimate, right? And I mean, football is like fun or whatever, you know, like people enjoy it. It's good to be healthy. But what what is that really contributing towards society? I don't know if that sounds like a shallow unappreciative thing, but I personally am not really into sports. Like that's not something that I enjoy. But I also don't see like what service are they, you know, what, you know, what they were doing? They were making money. It was money, you know, all the, the advert the advertising, people that pay to have their, you know, on the shows, you know, all that sort of that commodity driven, that's what it was, and they had to keep that going at the expense of everything else. And, I mean, that's very much like the same COVID politics here. It's really for me, makes me think that we need to have some kind of universal income or that guaranteed income, right like if We had something that was like, you just had like a basic living wage, right where like everybody has enough to like, be close, because that's what I've noticed. Like, there was a time when James and I, like we had no money, we were living so far below the poverty line. And it was such a struggle. And we're both very creative people who are driven and want to contribute to society. And beyond all of these, all of these great ideas. I'm trying to think of, do you know the program? FreshBooks? Oh, no. Oh, it's like, it's like a, it's like a program to help you with your bookkeeping and stuff like that. So my husband before that was a program when I was like, starting my gallery, you know, he had the idea to make a program like that, but he had to, like, you know, be so driven to make money to spend so much of his like, mental bandwidth on how to make money to like, get gas in our cars, and he thinks that there was no space to do these things that could be really beneficial to society. And so that's what I keep thinking, like people like, oh, people are gonna be lazy and just hang out and do drugs and blah, blah, they have guaranteed income. And like, look, there's already people that are lazy, and do drugs and are just hanging out. So why don't you give the rest of us and the majority of people I think, want to do something to entertain themselves. I mean, I don't think people would just sit around and be so lazy, right. And the people that are creatively driven, would then be able to really manifest so much more of what they're capable of, instead of just like running in that wheel of making money. Yeah. In Ireland, I think I saw something not long ago that they, they going to have a living wage for artists. So they're going to get a certain amount of money. I don't know if it's per month, or per week. And I was like, That is amazing. Because just the creativity is just going to explode. Like, you know, people with no limitations. What are they gonna make? It's gonna be amazing, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully, we'll move there. That was one of the things I was hoping out of COVID that people would see is like, it's interesting how we can all not go to work. And that means the economy isn't what does the economy even me? Like, it's really just like a made up? Like, it's a system that human beings have made up? Who maybe we should try to make a better system that works for everybody instead of like a minority of people. Hmm, absolutely. That's getting off topic now. But my husband, my husband's a financial planner, so we are incredibly different mindsets, right, like, so different. Tonight. Yeah. And so during COVID, they all of them had to work remotely. They're all at home, whatever, if they had a conference, they do it all online, on Zoom, whatever. And then this week, they've announced that they, they want them to go like interstate to go to this big conference. And I said, why? Like, just because you can now why go back to normal like, you not only like, what does the environment, you know, the cost of plane, the plane travel? You know, like, why? We've shown that we can do it without it. What? Why are we learning from this? Yeah, I think it's some people are, you know, it's just maybe a slow transition. I don't know. I think I'm forever an optimist to like, I want to believe that we're getting we've gotten something out of out of this difficult time. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with that. You touched on earlier about your feeling when you're in the gallery and you had your husband on the phone trying to give the bottle and things weren't working. And you had that moment where you went, you know, the two most important people in my life are there and I'm here that sort of I don't want to put words in your mouth but like that, that guilt sort of creeping in trouble. Yeah, it was. Mum Mum gives us a topic that I asked all my guests about. Can you share sort of your thoughts about put it in air quotes? Monkey? Oh, cuz it's like a construct to think about? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think it doesn't matter what your career is. Right? Like as a woman, it's a strange thing like the post feminist woman like we're no we're we're still expected to be these amazing moms. Keep a good house. Not look like a big mess. Right and like show up for everybody all the time. And I think it does create a huge amount of guilt. We're like, we are never enough. There are never enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things for all the people and then I think the more than anything we don't like do There's no value on recharging for ourselves, right? Like, it's almost like a like this weird luxury like, Oh, you're gonna go have quiet time for yourself for an hour. And that's a priority for your life. What about your dishes? You know, and it doesn't create this, like, very uncomfortable level of guilt. And it's like, Well, why don't you ask my husband about the dishes? Because he's a partnership. You know, like, I mean, he is great. Like, I'm not dissing on him at all. Like, he is an amazing 100%. Like, we are partners, we both do all the things, but like, from people looking in, right, whatever that social guilt is that social structure guilt, societal guilt of like, it doesn't matter how much we do, it is never ever enough. Yeah, I think that it caused me something, there's definitely days that I like, I'm in my pottery studio, and I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna set a timer. And the kids have like, their 45 minutes of screen time that they can have. And I'm going to do X amount of projects, and then that timer goes off, and I ignore it, the kids are happily in there with their screen time. And I'm just like, in the zone, and so happy. But then I come out of the zone. And I'm so guilt ridden. I'm like, Oh, they watched an extra hour of TV, you know, and just really write myself, but then I'm like, Oh, my gosh, what's an extra hour TV to me being refreshed, and able to be more present with them? And I think that that's like how I'm trying to navigate the mom guilt. But it is. It is real, and it is hard. And it it just it makes doing everything difficult, right? Like I want to say being a creative difficult, but it's not just being a creative, right? It's just that like, constant need to make sure that your kids are in the right schools, your kids are playing the right sports or doing the right extracurricular activity, or I don't even know and I don't know what, like you were saying before about like, some people just want a formula, you know, or like a way like to know what to do. And sometimes I feel like that is a mom and like, I wish you could just I guess they do right? They say like the pediatric recommended recommendation for hours of free time, right? I don't. I don't know what the answer is. But yes, definitely. struggle with it so much. And sometimes I have a studio assistant that comes and helps me sometimes. And she also has a small child. And she came in the other day. And Arthur was like, in a diaper in my studio, sitting in a chair with the iPad, like prop of the stool in front of it. And she was like, Oh my gosh, it's so refreshing to see that this is how you get things done. And I'm like, Yeah, I guess maybe I should put more of that, like on social media. I think that that's always the hard thing, too. That creates a lot of guilt within us, right as we have these very meticulously cure. I mean, I don't, I would not, say a meticulously curate my, via social media, but like, it's not like I want it to be a snapshot of the reality of my life. But I definitely am not taking pictures of my kid in my underwear with like, boogers all over it. Watching his iPad, like eating pirate booty, you know? I mean, maybe we should do that. Maybe we should do that more. I don't know. I mean, it's not beautiful. It doesn't fit into that. It's the gram. But that's the thing, too. I think so many times. I know personally, I've taken a photo of a similar sort of situation, like I'm trying to record something. So I've got the kids doing something, whatever it is. And I'll hesitate posting because I think the amount of people that are going to judge me for that, that don't know, my, that aren't in my home. And I think for a second I think Oh, bugger. Um, and then I think, no, because how I don't know, I just can't wear it. You know what I mean? I I'm not ready for I suppose. judging me judgment is real. And it doesn't feel like I think that's it like the mom guilt is feeling like we're not adequate. Like, we're suddenly to the people that we love the most in the world. We're somehow damaging them or like not doing good enough for them. Right. And so the idea that some stranger is going to kill him, and he's going to say that to you. It's like, yeah. Oh my gosh, that just heightens that inner voice that somehow I'm not doing this, right. Absolutely. Or I'm not doing it well enough. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we need to have some kind of like, social media space. It's like, like, what was that? Oh, I think it was like a Pinterest fails or something like one of those. Like, some grandparenting disaster thing where like, we all just like put the reality. You know, here's my kid, like covered and whatever, do something crazy. We could just be honest, without fear. Yeah, without the fear of judgment. Judge freezone Yeah, yeah. Yeah. First, yeah, another thing that frustrates me and then I frustrate myself because I think why am I letting other people that I don't know. You know, I do know a lot of people that I follow but a little follow me a lot of people I don't know, why am I letting that worry me? Why don't I just like, the way I approach my music is like, I'll make my music for me, right? I don't make it for anyone in Most people are going to love it, there's people that aren't going to love it. But that doesn't affect the way that I make my music. I just do it because I want to. So why don't I have the rest of my life like that? You know, it's like, maybe because it's so? I don't know, because it affects you, like you said, it's you're talking about the people that you love the most, and you try to do the best for them. So if someone then brings to your attention that perhaps, maybe you shouldn't be doing this, you're like, oh, no, I'm ruining my children, you know, because it affects somebody else. It's harder to do. Yeah. And I feel like the way you're describing creating is also my same process, right? Like, it's this weird, like, I'll get like, the spark of an idea. And then it's like, I'm like, I want to, like, I want to see it manifested or maybe for you, like you want to hear it like in this three dimensional world. And so it's like, spending this time to, like, bring it forward from a very, from like, a complete non existence into the world, right. And I don't know what the kids is like, they're already here. And they're already like, throwing tantrums sometimes and why, like, they definitely do things that I mean, my children regularly do things that make me question like, am I somehow doing this wrong? So then I think when someone you know, when someone has the audacity to tell me that I'm doing it wrong, because they saw some picture that I thought I was funny that I put on Instagram, it really? Yeah, it makes me question more. And I think, I don't know, I'm definitely no parenting expert. But I think no matter what happens, everybody experiences some kind of trauma in their life. So it doesn't matter. Like how good of a parent we tried to be or how, you know, wonderful. We tried to make everything for our kids like they're, they're going to run into bullies or difficult times, you know, so I don't know. Yeah, somehow we have got to let go of I'm gonna think about that. More like that idea of like being the perfect parent and why? Or maybe the perfect isn't even my work. But what is it that causes that guilt? Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's something for us to think about. Yeah, to get to the root of it, because maybe if we can understand it, we can stop feeling it so much. Yeah, you know, absolutely. That's good. We've had a bit of syrup. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, there was a joke. At one point in my pottery studio, they were like, oh, pottery, Mercedes, it's cheaper than therapy. And I was like, you guys, I'm gonna have to raise my prices. Because I don't know if I could be handled via your therapist, and your pottery teacher. That's a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure. Moving back to your, your art and your work. Have you got anything coming up in the future that you want to share about or anything that you've got work you're working on now that you want to give a bit of a plug? Tell us what you're up to. Well, I don't I mean, I have a lot of ideas in the works but I don't have anything like for sure dates. Like I was saying earlier, I'm hoping that the fall of this year to have a show together a full body of work around the marionettes but I'm not 100% Sure but that like that is what's in what I'd like crafting in my mind for my next like big group work. And then I'm currently working on a series that will just go into retail shops that is something that I tend to touch on almost every spring which is kind of like botanical themed pieces. So I've been creating these I'm calling them plates but it's not like it's like a printer's plate not like a plate that you would eat off of. So I'm pushing the flowers into the clay and then I'm gonna use those to like make the plates off of I've got a few of them I think I might have posted them on my interest Instagram, but I'm going to do a whole spring collection around like that there's so it'll all be like you know, things that are in bloom right now on bowls and plates and probably some planters so usually I tried to do a spring collection in the fall collection so that and that main relief will be like online, through artists on a boutique, but I don't have a date or anything like that, that yet. And then during COVID I started folding the 1000 paper cranes. Again, it's a second time that I've done it and I'm about I think about a little over 400 in so I'm hoping I'm still not sure how what that is going to manifest into other than like I did it you know, I don't know if you know the story of the 1000s papercraft as I can ask you. Yeah, so it's a it's a Japanese tradition that I think I don't know where it really originated, but a lot of the stories that you hear revolve around the Hiroshima Like the bombing of Hiroshima, and the the people trying to heal after that. So the idea is the person that folds 1000 origami cranes, like it's like a meditation and a wish for something. And so people didn't really people that are ill, or people that are getting married, things like that the 1000 frames for them. So during COVID, I decided, I think it was like during the second wave or something like that, that I was going to fold it for, like, you know, the end of like, for a healing for our world for COVID. And also like for my COVID anxiety because I think that cry crafting a just moving my hands really helps me just deal with that like anxious energy. So anytime I would feel really overwhelmed about something to do with COVID, I would just like pull the crane pull the crane. So I'm not sure. I may do some kind of installation with that after the fact that haven't 100% decided where those credits are going to end up. But so far. So that's another project that I'm currently in the works on. But nothing was solidified. Because that's one of my things as like with the being a parent and an artist. I tried not to give myself very many deadlines. Because that that if you're stressed out, and not a very good parent, or artists. Yeah, that's it. It's hard to do anything with that sort of pressure over your head, and then you everything suffers because you like you can't stop being a parent. And you can't stop being an artist. But sometimes they can't work at the same time. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yep, I love that. This has been a nice talk. Oh, it's been awesome. I really enjoyed. I've really, really enjoyed talking to everybody, because I enjoy talking to everybody. But I've really, really enjoyed talking to you. It's been really lovely. Yeah, well, what a great job to get to talk to artists about art, you know, and that's what we love. It's so good. Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for doing this. I mean, I think it's so good for the global mom, community for all of us. You know, it really, it's, it's lovely to like be in the studio and just listening to other artists like talk about how they do it and get ideas, you know, yeah, that's it. A lot of people have said that, actually, it's really good to hear how the people are doing it. And it's just reassuring to hear that we're all in the same boat. Like it's just, we're all gone through that evacuation. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom