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Lisa Sugarman US writer S2 Ep57 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Lisa Sugarman, a writer and mum of 2 grown daughters from that famous town of Salem Massachusetts, USA. Before having her children Lisa was a newspaper (news and feature) reporter, writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa was a teacher for 15 years in local school system, as a class room teacher, coach administration and one-on-one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older and she working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. in 2009 her column "It Is What it Is" became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This lead her to the opportunity to write books, full of content the helps and inspires families, and in particular mothers, and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. Let the mistakes happen and embrace them. This lead her to the radio in Boston for many years. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, suicide + the death of a parent ** Lisa lost her dad to suicide when she was 10 years old, but didn’t find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later. Now, because of that life-changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention and she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQIA+ community. She lives by the motto "It’s okay that life is messy…because we're all a work in progress." Today in addition to my regular topics, we end up talking a lot about social media, and the role it has played in creating 'helicopter parenting'. and the affects of its portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and parenting expectations. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Lisa's website / The Vomit Booth Read about the Salem Witch Trials We mention the Uvalde School shooting and The Beaumont Children Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman.I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me it really is an absolute privilege and an honor that you've chosen to listen to my podcast. My guest today is Lisa Sugarman. Lisa is a writer and a mum of two grown daughters from that very famous Town of Salem, Massachusetts in the United States. Before having a children Lisa was a newspaper, news and feature reporter writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa spent 15 years working in local schools as a classroom teacher, a coach in administration, and a one on one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older, and she was working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. In 2009 Her column it is what it is, became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This led to the opportunity to write books full of the content that helps and inspires families and in particular mothers and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. This led Lisa to host her radio show in Boston for many years. This episode contains discussion around mental health and suicide and the death of a parent. Lisa lost her dad Jim to suicide when she was 10 years old. But she didn't find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later when she was 45. Now because of that life changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention. And she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQ plus community. She lives by the motto. It's okay that life is messy, because we're all a work in progress. Today amongst the usual topics I like to discuss, we end up talking a lot about social media and the role that it's played in creating helicopter parenting, and the effective it's portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and our parenting expectations. The music you'll hear today is from my trio, LM Joe, which is made up of myself, M Anderson, my sister and her husband, John, we play new age and ambient music. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page. Alison Newman dot net slash podcast. Thanks so much for coming on today. Lisa, it's a real pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So you're in America, we're about to you. So we live about 15 miles north of Boston on the east coast of the country. And we're in this cute little, semi famous city of Salem. Wherever you might be in the world, you can recognize that name, because it's got a lot of history attached to it. So we just we just moved actually from my hometown about a mile down the road. A little a little sea coast town and the birthplace of the American Navy. We just moved out maybe nine months ago, we just our girls are grown women now and we didn't need a house in any particular neighborhood anymore. And we just kind of took advantage of the crazy real estate market and sold and moved down the road. So we're in Salem. Oh, very good. So you're getting yourself set up in that special little town is it how many people live there? Is it very big Salem? In Salem? Um, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that at this point. I know the exact population but it's a pretty densely populated city and it's it's fairly Large. So there are definitely, definitely a lot of people i We live in an area of Salem that's kind of not in the hustle, we're a little bit removed from where people who are tourists would typically come to see and everything involving the witch trials. And, you know, you know all of that history you would go maybe two or three miles away from where we are, but it's a pretty it's a pretty densely populated little city. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think that pretty much everyone that's listening, probably recognize the name and the connections and the history. Yeah. I remember reading the crucible in year 11, or 12. Yeah. Yeah, that's something like we obviously have our own sort of histories here. But we've got we've got nothing sort of along those lines. So it's really fascinating to sort of, and I don't know how much of that is really true, either. Like, is there a bit of sort of folklore that goes along with? Yeah, there's, there's, there's some lore attached to it, for sure. And it's definitely I'm sure been embellished over the years, but I think, you know, so much of it, believe it or not, is, is actually very true. And it's been very well documented. And I mean, we haven't taken the tours since I was in grade school. And we would, you know, we would always, it would always be like a little junket to Salem to, you know, kind of take advantage of all that history. That's there. So I mean, I, I know that, you know, there is there's a lot of truth, kind of woven into all of those legends as well. So it's, it's a pretty deeply historical spot with so much significance. And it's neat, especially around October, Well, depends on your perspective, if you're from here, you want to be as far away from here as possible. If you're not here, like the entire world seems to converge on Salem, for the month of October. So everybody that that I know, knows to stay far away, because it's a little chaotic. Yeah. It's also kind of cool that everyone was, would be really interesting. Living in a place like that. So tell us a little bit about yourself lay. So what you do what you've done, I guess you can expand for as long or as short as you wish. So the floor is yours. Yeah, I appreciate that. So first and foremost, I mean, I'm I'm a mom, I have two very grown daughters, my youngest just turned 22. And our oldest is turning 25 in another few weeks. So I've been at it for a while that a little motherhood game. I was a teacher in our local school system for many, many years, probably close to 15 years and wore a lot of different hats in kind of in that role was a classroom teacher was a coach worked in administration was a one on one aid supporting just individual children with special needs over the years. So I had a really, really big open wide lens to really kind of view the parent child relationship, that that whole dynamic, the way the whole family system works, the way kids are, are educated and supported. So that's kind of what tracked me over toward what I've been doing most recently, in the last decade or so. I've always been a writer. So before I had children, I was a newspaper reporter for many, many years and wrote for magazines here in the US, and this way pre pre internet and that whole explosion. And we kind of took a break, or I took a break from that and stayed home and raised our daughters. And then it's just so funny how, how things happen. So unexpectedly, like you're you're tracking in one direction, and then you get an opportunity. And it kind of puts you on a on a totally different path. And that's what happened to me. I was working in the school systems. And just for fun, I started writing again, I had never written a column in my life, I was always a news and feature reporter and I just for fun started contributing to my local paper, because I had had some pretty deep connections there when I was in college. And they're always asking, you know, these these little hometown newspapers or I was desperate for people to, you know, to give them content. So I just started writing about what I was living at the time and what I was living with parenthood. So I started writing. And little by little, it just started catching on and people started responding really well to it. And it just birthed this whole brand new career. So the column was syndicated, it's called it is what it is. And it was just syndicated throughout this media organization, it was all over the country and then it kind of, you know, by virtue of the internet, it goes all over the world. So that happened for men. I've got like 12 years 11 or 12 years I was writing the column I still do and from time to time less so because I started focusing on books. And that led me to the opportunity to write books. And I've written a few of them, parenting focused all about kind of how to embrace your perfectly imperfect, this is really the easiest way to understand it. Let the mistakes happen, embrace them, and, and really kind of find the good nuggets that are within that. And then that kind of led me to the radio, and I ended up on the radio for a couple of years here in Boston. And so it's just, it's just been this, this really cool little flow of opportunities that have all kind of centered around creating content that helps support and inspire families and in particular moms. So that's, that's kind of the long answer to the How did I get to this point? And what kind of stuff do I do? So? Yeah, I still very much enjoy writing parenting content, although I've kind of shifted my focus a little bit. And I'm doing a lot of mental health advocacy, and suicide awareness and prevention and doing a lot of speaking and, and writing about that as well. So that that's, that's all interrelated, because it really, it impacts our kids an awful lot. And, you know, it's important to start and have those conversations. So that's kind of what I'm doing now. Yeah, right. So with your books, do you sort of draw on your own personal, like things that have happened to you, things that you've learned, or, I don't know, wish you'd known that kind of stuff? Yeah, that's exactly where it comes from. That's, that's where everything, just about everything that that I've done has come from, it's all anecdotally based. So it's really just either, you know, stories and experiences from my own childhood, or from, you know, the experience of raising my own children. And all of that experience being in the school system, both in the classroom and kind of in the administration role, and working with parents and kids so closely, and I just started seeing, you know, I started seeing such a pattern with parents and with children and parents were just getting so overwhelmed by this, this invisible need to be the perfect parent to have the perfect kid to make sure that they didn't make any mistakes, to make sure that their kids never fell on their face to make sure that, you know, there was no struggle. And in doing that, and it was all based from a place of love and caring for their children. But they were absolutely crushing their kids with these crazy expectations of how they should behave and what they should accomplish and how, I guess how, just how perfect they should be. And and it was it was really debilitating. And you can see the kids being affected by that and such negative ways. Kids kids couldn't couldn't build resilience, because they couldn't do things for themselves. They weren't allowed to do things for themselves. So I just started voicing my opinion, I guess, is what you could say about how counterproductive I thought that was. And that we really need to let our kids figure it out by failing by trying one way doesn't work. You go another way and, and it just really stirred up. You know a lot in me in terms of wanting to help parents understand that they don't have to be perfectly you can give yourself permission to trump the balls. And, you know, to kind of embrace that madness because parent parenthood, like if you can't laugh at parenthood, then you're in the wrong job, you know, yeah, that's it, isn't it? I've got just after you've said that, I've got that many things I want to ask you. I've got so many questions, I can take you in lots of different directions. So I'm gonna go, let's go. I'm gonna go with so talking. I mean, the phrase that sort of comes to mind when you're talking about that, that method of parenting, that helicopter parenting where you've always got to be over the top of your kids making sure things go right. Like you said, they don't. They don't get that chance to build their resilience because they don't get the opportunity to fail and experience Is that sort of emotions and that sort of stuff? I wonder, because often we talk about different generations and how they were parented and the sort of norms that were around, then, when do you think things started to really change and become this different way of parenting? Because I remember, as a kid, you know, being allowed to go out for most of the day, ride my bike around the neighborhood, do all this sort of stuff. And now it's like, oh, no, you can't do that something will happen to you like, when did that start to change? Do you think and what might have brought about that change? You know, it's funny that you should say that because I talk about that with my daughters, what we you and I have had similar experiences. The town that I grew up in this little coastal Harbor Town, just north of Boston, a mile from where I am right now is just this little peninsula town, surrounded by a harbor, four square miles, we would get on our bikes, there were train tracks, paths all around town, where you could get to and from one end and the other and that's all we did, we would be outside until Billy Fallon's mom rang the bell or blew the slide whistle and like the whole neighborhood would scatter and go home because they knew it was time to go home. But we out for like a second the sun came up. And we'd be on the path and we'd be downtown, we'd be in the harbor, and, and my kids, my kids were bike riders, not to that same degree. But they were the kids playing manhunt. I don't know if it's manhunt is a game that that, you know, it's it's tag, it's just like, all throughout the neighborhood and in the trees and in the fields and whatnot. So it still existed when my kids were young, but I feel like I can't say that there was a catalyst, like, I don't necessarily know that I can say, okay, that at that exact time, because of that exact event, everything shifted. But I do think it was somewhere in between our generation and my children's generation, where, you know, I think, I think meet the social media influence has just brought so much fear, it's done so much good. But it's also done so much damage. And I think that, with that constant connection, and that constant flood of information, and news and, and trauma, we're all living through trauma. I mean, look, no further. I don't know if the news has arrived yet. Of what happened in Texas. Okay, so, and I'm really my heartbreaks. For you guys over there. It's just shocking. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, as as someone who taught for so many years, and as the mom of two daughters, both of whom are teachers currently. You know, it's hard, I have so many teacher friends, and just a mom, and anyone who, of course, especially as a parent, can just hear that, that situation about those those poor children and those teachers who were killed. And it's just, it's devastating. And it's like, but we the reason why I'm bringing that up is because the second that happened, the world knew about it. It was everywhere. It was on, it was buzzing on every phone and every tablet on the planet. And so everyone is sharing in that trauma, everyone is experiencing that fear. Everyone is making plans because of it to protect their children. What else can I layer around my child? How else? How better Can I bubble wrap my child and my family and my world. And so we've got those influences in ways that we never had them before. So on the one hand, having something like social media or a phone or the ability to connect with your kids, when they're off in the world, is great, because it's kind of like that umbilical cord is still partially connected. And that's a comforting feeling. But I think we've leaned too heavily into that, to the point where everything is about instant gratification now. Why is my kid not texting me back? What happened to them? Did they get hit by a car? Did they get abducted? Did they I mean, like, so I think that you know, there's a there's a good side and a bad side to this whole social media phenomenon. But I think that, that right there. If I were going to point to one thing that has really done more damage, it's that because now everyone's hearing from every possible angle in the world. What could happen to your kid if you let them out the door? Yeah, you know, and so I think because of that, we've just, maybe our generation, my generation, I guess, has just clamped down an awful lot harder. Out of fear. Yeah. Yeah, it's very fear driven, isn't it? It's that need to keep people safe or stop, stop the bad thing happening or stop them from feeling upset or bad or, you know, emotions that we see as negative or that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't want to talk about bad stuff. But as an example, there was years and years ago in Australia, there was some children abducted though, called the Beaumont children. And for years and years and years. That was like the only, I guess, episode of that nature that we all knew about it. This was back in the 60s, I think. And so you know that that thing you're saying about, we're all connected now. Any everything in anything that happens? We all hear about it. So there probably was other stuff going on, but we just didn't know about it. Yeah. So once we know about it, we'll go Oh, no. And yeah, go into that fury action. I'm glad you brought up social media, because that was something I was going to ask you about this notion of perfection, the the way that now because we see this curated version of people's lives, we not everybody, but a lot of people want to present the very best of themselves on social media, you know, which is fair enough, I suppose you want to even want to look good or whatever, but unrealistic, to the point where, you know, it's really not reflective of people's lives. And so it's giving off this false sense of perfection. So then everyone else that's consuming that information, starts to think, oh, no, I must be doing something wrong. My life doesn't look like that. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of you agree with? Oh, yeah. Not only do I Gree with it, but I talk about it, often, I write about it even more often. And I really appreciate the fact that you use the word curate, because when I do talk about it, that is always my go to word. Because that is exactly what's happening. People, people are filtering or curating the best of the best of the best. And in most cases, and I mean, you know, there, I think there's now a happy to see now that there seems to be a little bit of a shift, where people are like, No, that's bullshit. Why am I doing that? Why am I why? Why are we only putting this facade out there? It's this veneer of what's you know, of what we think people want to see or what we want to project. And I think people are getting tired of it quickly, because it's sending such a, you know, such a damaging message. And it's creating, you know, we fall as parents into such a comparison trap, and I write about this, my co author and I write a lot about this, in our most recent book, we have an entire chapter devoted to not know, not falling into this comparison trap. And I think the biggest, the biggest suck into that trap, is what we're seeing on social media, and we really can't avoid it. I mean, do you know, do you honestly also know, a human being at this stage of life that does not have some kind of a device? I mean, unless it's like a newborn. And even I think the newborns, there must be like a newborn tablet or something, right? And they give you this push on. So I mean, it's like, granted, you know, people use things to different degrees. And not everybody who has social, you know, social media is on Instagram, and not everyone is part of Facebook or not, but the majority are, and, you know, when you're in that world, it's impossible to avoid seeing what's being put out there. And when you, you look at that, and you start comparing yourself to that, it's, I don't want to use the word traumatizing because I think that that might be a little bit of a strong word to use, but it's it definitely leaves a mark on you. If you're like, Well, wait a minute, like, how come that mom of 12 children is so beautifully, like she's perfect looking and dressed, you know, dressed like to the, to the nines, and she's, you know, she's she's driving her SUV and she's got her coffee in her hand and all of her children have braids. They're all wearing dresses. She's all made up, like, like, come on, like, this is crap. Like people like you know, I know so many moms who are Like, I couldn't even like, find a robe, to put on myself to get my kid to, like, conceal my, my pajamas to drive my kid to school, you know, you know, like throwing kids into into the school, like throw an apple and a handful of Cheerios at your kid and then dump them in the car. And so it's like, we need, we need that reality check. And we need to stop comparing ourselves because it's just so toxic. And it's so unfortunate because it really I think weighs heavily on people. Even though our rational brains most of us are like, okay, come on, this is dumb. Why am I trying to compare myself to that person? My situation is different. There's this different, but it's like human nature. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing you're not when you're, you know, you're scrolling through your Instagram or your Facebook feed, you're not in, you know, switched on rational mode, you're in relaxed looking at stuff mode. So you do you use, that's your first reaction is to go to that, oh, how come? I can't do that? Or how come she can do that? Or, you know, and then yeah, you might think about it later and go, Oh, this is the list of reasons why perhaps, you know, but yeah, we will we go to it? You mentioned that you're interested in mental health issues. Do you find that that a lot of issues with around people's mental mental health comes from this kind of bombardment of social media and the comparisons and that kind of stuff? I do? I absolutely do. And, you know, again, I'm the mom of two children. And I think back to that time, which was not long ago, it was in my children's lives, when they didn't have this influence, they didn't have this gateway, into a world of other kids their age doing doing all these things. And you know, they didn't have the ability to see the, the birthday party or the bar mitzvah, or the event that they weren't invited to, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can now and, you know, they couldn't get harassed. In this way. It was like, back in the day, when you went to school and you got bullied on the playground, which was bad enough. Now, it's like, there's nowhere in the world you can't get bullied, because you've got, you know, this vehicle that allows that to happen, right in your hand all the time. So I think, again, it's like, you know, I keep using social media, and technology as kind of the catch all for why so many things have escalated. But it's in all fairness, like it is it exists and, and impacting kids mental health is definitely one our mental health to forget about just kids, but it's just as bad, you know, for us to see the, you know, the the girls trip that a whole bunch of the moms, you know, went on, and you didn't go or the big garden party that someone had or, you know, day on the boat that you weren't invited to, it's, you know, it's impossible to ignore it. I think that it depends on who you are. And it depends on how seriously you take that, being bombarded with that all the time. But, I mean, look at the suicide rates in young children right now in adolescent and teenage children. And it's startling, and it's going up. And, you know, every other day, you turn on the news, and you hear about a child who was cyber bullied, and they jumped off a bridge and you hear about a child, you know, who was shamed, you know, who was shamed because of their size? Or, you know, something, you know, that it's, there's bigotry, there's, like, every negative thing in the world can flow through your phone just as easily as every positive thing, and our kids are right there on the other side of it. So I think it's, it's absolutely had a really negative impact. And it's, it's sad. It's sad, and I don't know, you know, aside from putting things like parental controls in place, and really just understanding what your kids are looking at when you're younger kids are a part of that even even as they navigate it and start to be part of it and grow into it. Like we've got to, we've got to really be super focused on what they're focused on. It's too easy to let a lot of the negativity slide Under our radar, and still reach them. And I think it's hard for some parents too, because because we didn't grow up in this world of what's happening to be actually actually aware of what is happening, because I mean, a lot of teenagers aren't, you know, super forthcoming with what's going on in their lives or what they're consuming on their phones. So yeah, to sort of, I don't know, yeah, I don't want to say educate yourselves, because that sounds really patronizing. But, you know, being aware talking to other parents and sort of finding out what sort of stuff your child could be into, or being exposed to, so you actually can help them out and put some boundaries in place, perhaps to sort of limit what they're what they're exposed to. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say to say that I don't think it's patronizing to say that at all, I think it's necessary to say that and even more necessary to act on that, because we're that line of defense, it is our job when they aren't rational enough as young people and they're developing and, you know, those connections are all being made in their brains. It's up to us to create those boundaries. And to keep talking the same talk. And I don't want to say it's rhetoric, because it's not rhetoric, it's important. But it's one of those things as parents, especially young kids, that we have to just keep saying over and over again until you want to throw up and until your kids want to throw up because they're so sick of hearing it, but we keep saying it anyway. Yeah. I want to turn to still looking at social media as a little bit. But the something I really love to talk about guests as talk about with guests on my show is mum guilt and or mommy guilt or mom guilt, whatever you want to call it. What are your thoughts about that whole topic? Oh, wow, I have a lot of thoughts about mom guilt, I also at times have had plenty of mom guilt. It, it is a toxic emotion, because it keeps us from doing the things that I think we need to do. And instead causes us to do things that we think we're supposed to do, like keep our young children busy from the second that they open their eyes in the morning, until the second thing go to bed at night. And we are so afraid of and so consumed by guilt, if we don't have, you know, a four course dinner on the table every night, if we don't have the house clean, if we don't have activities planned, if we don't have social events, if we like all all these things in that and this, this ties in all of this mom guilt ties very heavily into the whole comparison issue. Because we're all looking at everything that everybody around us is doing. And I'm not just talking about on social media, I'm talking about just like in general, we're looking at what everybody is doing around us. And we're feeling such intense feelings of guilt because we're not doing what that family is doing. Or we're that mom is doing and you know, and we're feeling guilty about things that we shouldn't feel guilty about. Like if you love your child, and you're dedicated to supporting your child and inspiring and encouraging your child and, you know, and you're not gonna let your child go hungry, like it's okay, if they have a bowl of cereal for dinner. It's okay, if the laundry is not done. It's okay. If you didn't get dressed today. It's okay. Like, that's the stuff we have to start emphasizing more than the whole idea of checking off every single box or else our day sucks, and we accomplished nothing. And we're guilt ridden because we didn't accomplish all the things that we feel like we're supposed to do. So it's a huge issue. And, and again, you know, it also is another issue similarly in the way that more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster, and I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest In the same way, I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into it, because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection, if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what yeah, it just serves no purpose to anybody does. It's such a, it's a horrible thing. I hate it. I just think it's a load of crap. It is even just makes me so cross. It's. Yeah. And I just want to hug all the moms all at once every moment, like, let go. Yes. Yep. Yeah, I had, I had some ladies on, I had like, four, four mums on at one time for a Mother's Day special few weeks ago. And they one of the ladies had written a letter to mum guilt. And it was like, Mum, guilt, you're a bitch, I need to read that it was really good. Really. And that's the thing, like, as well as like, not, like admitting that we're not going great admitting that, you know, I don't want to say a failure, I'm putting that in air quotes. But you know, that it actually is normal to not be doing everything, as well as you had hoped, like, these expectations that we feel like, we've got to do it this way. You know, for whatever reason, because we've been judged, or because someone told us, we should do that this way. Or, for whatever reason, you know, and to say, I actually, I don't buy into that stuff, you know, it's a really, it's a really powerful thing to say, and then to share with other mums. And they might go, oh, actually, I was feeling a bit like that. But I didn't know whether I should feel like that, you know, doubting yourself. And creating this whole movement of this, you know, giving the middle finger to monkeys. I know, I love that. And I appreciate and support that so much. Because I think that so much of what motivates us to, to, to, to reach a place of guilt, or to compare ourselves to other people in the first place comes from, directly from our ego, as we're doing this thing that so many millions of people before us have done and so many people alongside us are doing. And there's this internal voice that says like, Oh, of course, like, I can totally do it, like they do it, like I should be able to do that. Right? I should be able to have six kids, and also run a business and also have a like, a Better Homes and Gardens house and look amazing. And besides to and, you know, it goes on and on and on. But, and I think that when we can't, or don't do the things that, you know, we feel are the things that should be done. You know, that's, that's when it chips away at us. And, and it kind of breaks us it breaks our spirit, because then it's like, well, how come they can do it? I can't show that I'm failing at it. Yeah, that's the reason that we've we've got a hold up that, again, that perfection that everything's fine this facade of, you know, I see. Yeah. I really think people are getting more comfortable with that feeling of saying that, that they you know, not projecting the perfect world. I think I think we are getting better slowly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I've been begging people to talk about now, for? Well, well over a decade. You know, I moderate a group on Facebook that I that I started now, it's been years, it's been several years ago. And it's on Facebook, it's a public group, and it's called the vomit booth. And it's just a place that marries kind of everything that I do in terms of, you know, writing and speaking and kind of philosophies of parenthood, the humanistic common sense views of parenthood, and I brought it to this place where it could have an interactive component and people could actually come into this group and talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff and bond together and share together and the idea of it being a place where you could kind of like hurl out vomit up whatever it is, that's that's troubling you or holding you back and that people someone's there to hold your hair back while you let it out. And you can listen and vent and, and some incredible conversations over the past several years have come out because it's a place that I really encourage people to like If you're not okay, if you're struggling with XY or z, if you feel inadequate, like, let it out, share it, start that conversation, because I guarantee you that there are 10 million other people feeling the same way. But nobody wants to be like, nobody wants to be the first one to talk in the elevator. Yeah, like, just but once somebody does, everybody starts talking. So that's what we want to do. Yeah, that reminds me that analogy of the first one to talk when I in Australia, we have this thing called Moms groups where after you have your baby, they, they put you with complete strangers, they're just people that happen to have their child at the same time as you. So you put in with these people that you have nothing else in common with, apart from your baby came out at the same time you need. That's all you need. That's the common denominator. And I remember one of the first sessions we went to, and I was, you know, things were not going well. And everyone goes around the circle and says how they're going. And everyone seemed to be going really well. And I was sitting there thinking, why is everyone going so good? What is wrong with me? You know, what's wrong with my baby? Why am I struggling? And then, when it was my turn, I think I said something. I tried to make a joke like, Oh, I'm glad you're all going so great, because I'm not and then just My life sucks. Right now. I shared all the crap things about the no sleep and the sore boobs and we couldn't breastfeed. And when I broke the ice with that, that's when everyone started to be more honest. And it was like, Oh, thank God, like we can be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's just yeah. That's what it takes. And then then, then everybody comes out of the woodwork. And then everyone's like, Oh, but wait, but me, but this, but that we're outdoing each other with worse stories. Exactly. And, and you know, not not to take the focus off of parenting, which is what I know we're spending so much time talking about to circle it back for a second to mental health. That is exactly. And this applies to children. And parents, obviously, it applies to mental health in the sense that once we start vocalizing are not being okay, or our struggle, or our fear, or whatever it is, once we put it out there, there is almost always going to be someone who will then connect with that, and then we'll have some kind of a similar experience or know someone or, or understand on a deeper level, and then it just, it's like self perpetuating, then all of a sudden, that dialogue starts and it's that's why it's so important what whatever space you're in, in the world, whether it's the mental health space, or the parenting space, or the marriage space. It's not communication, that can change everything that can elevate you from a place of silently suffering or feeling shame or being stuck to it elevates you to a place where okay, I'm not alone anymore. And other people know what I feel like and other people may have done some things can suggest some things that will, that will be useful to me. And that's why this there's so much incredible power in our shared experiences. But they do no one any good if we don't share them Yeah. Yeah, that mental health is at least interesting one, I think. People are really afraid to share that. It's like, the way I sort of compare like, if you've got a broken leg, you're not going to be scared to go to the doctor to say, Hey, could you fix my leg? But for some reason, we were so worried about being judged by I don't know, it's, it seems like we've we've failed somehow, but we're not actually in control of the, you know, the chemical imbalances in our brains. But we've sort of learned, I guess, from previous generations that that's something you don't talk about. And, you know, I had an experience where I had quite bad postnatal depression with both my children. And I shared I did a podcast years ago with a mental health group in my town. And then that then snowballed into it was like a group of community people that were known in the community members that that would be identified, sort of through whether they like it as me as a singer. There was like, people that own shops like just pick faces that you know, in the community, and we ended up with these great big banners. They put us on these banners and put us all around town with the little like cute barcode scan, listen and listen to the podcast. And my dad said to me, are you sure you want everyone to know what happened to you? I said, Yes, that I do. This is exactly why I'm doing it. Because I want people to know that it is normal is nothing to be ashamed of. It's like normalizing this discussion around mental wellness or mental unwellness. And I don't know, it's like, yeah, that generation, it's like, Oh, don't don't talk about that sort of stuff, you know? Well, we had no, you're right. 1,000%. Right. And I love the fact that you did that, because that is what we should all be doing. And I know, it's a lot harder for some than others. There are a lot of people out there who are, you know, very introverted, and very uncomfortable sharing. But the fact of the matter is that there has always been such a deep dark stigma associated with mental illness. I mean, I think back to, you know, another generation before me to my parents generation, though, I lost my father to suicide when I was 10 years old, thank you. And I didn't find out about his suicide until I was in my mid 40s. So 35 years later, I found out about it. Not at all, because my mother felt like it was shameful, had nothing to do with it whatsoever, my mother was just strictly trying to protect me, I had already lost my person to have told me at that time, when I was 10 years old, that it was his decision would have shattered me beyond repair. So in that sense, I'm so grateful that she did that. But it had nothing to do with a stigma. But still, at that time, and for so many decades later, until just really in recent history, it isn't, wasn't something you talked about, it was something that automatically, by default, gave you kind of a black mark, and made you feel less than or made you appear less than even if it didn't, it did in your own head because of the narrative that was associated with it. And, you know, it's like the same reason why parents were so reluctant to say that their children had learning disabilities, or that their children had mental health issues. And same thing, they didn't, they didn't want that stigma to be attached, but it's only in doing what you did, or what I began to do, which is to talk in every space I possibly can about my father's story, to help encourage other people to share their story, or their trauma or their grief or their, their illness, because that's how we change. That's how we normalize it. And that's how we change that narrative. You know, I think of it in in so many different ways, when I think of what happened to my father, and how it's impacted me in my life. You know, there's the loss that I felt as a 10 year old, then there's the loss that I felt, so I have grieved his death now twice in my life, you know, once his child and once as a grown, married mother of two children. And, you know, I think about the power that's within that story, both as a child and a survivor of suicide loss, and someone who has had to kind of travel that arc of forgiveness. And I also think about it in terms of like, when I really found out the truth, my girls were teenagers, I had one, just entering high school, I had one who was graduating from high school, and, you know, my oldest, has, has had mental health issues and has had anxiety and some depression and is very open about it. And, you know, getting help for it has changed your life, it's changed, you know, because as you said a little while ago, these are things it's like, if you were born, if you were born with six fingers on your hand, you would be someone who was born with six fingers on your hand, and that was beyond your control. And in that same exact way, like someone's born with a heart condition or someone God forbid, has cancer. It's, it is no different. The mental health challenges, issues, diagnoses, whatever you want to call them, that we have as human beings like that is that is beyond our control. And we need to be treated in the same way that you would treat someone with heart disease or cancer or whatnot or a broken leg. Yep. So yeah, my my, my goal at that time once I kind of arrived at a place of really, truly understanding why my father, I don't know the reason why I will never know the reason why. And that haunted me for a long time. It doesn't anymore. I just know that my father had so much mental illness that was undetected by anybody in our family, but he it was not being here anymore, whether it was for our benefit or his was the only solution. And so I've come to accept that but I've also accepted the fact that my father had so much gin netic like the genetic cocktail in my poor dad's body, from where he grew up and how he grew up, and the mental illness that existed in his family, like that's in my destiny that's in my children. And what really inspired me, I think, to start talking in general about it to my children in particular, was, like, you guys may not feel this way or that way now, or have these feelings or emotions or thoughts now, maybe when you're 22, maybe when you're 26, maybe when you're 30, maybe, you know, these, these things don't always surface immediately. And I wanted them to know like, look, this is, here's your DNA. Here's, here's what could be in your DNA. And here's what it might look like in you. Because here's what it looks like in him, I have certain tendencies or issues. I'm an empath. I feel everything as though I'm grabbing on to like an electrified wire, all the good and the bad in my life house, and I feel it like I'm holding a live wire. And I know, that's how it manifested in me, but I wanted to have that conversation with my kids so that they would know and be able to have an open line of communication. Like, I'm okay, I'm feeling weird. I need to talk to someone I knew. So, yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that it's worth. It's yeah, thank you. It's really great. So that, that you're able to share it. Because like you said, there's so many people that can't for whatever reason, and that sort of reason why I feel like I sort of want to help those people in my own way by sharing my story, because maybe they can't, but that, like you said before, you know, they might take something from it, they might go, oh, I can empathize with that I, I experienced that. Or I understand what you mean by that. And that might give them the little nudge to, to reach out and do what they need to do. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Identity is another thing that I really love talking about this, you know, that we're, we're a woman, we're having this amazing life. We're doing all these things, and then we become a mother. And then it seems that our sole purpose is then to, you know, be a mother, that we might lose other components of ourselves that we had three children, or all? Yeah, yeah. So Oh, and yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people through these podcasts. And there's so many varying degrees of experience with that, which is wonderful. Because, you know, we're all different in that it's great to share. Have you got some thoughts about that? Topic? Yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of thoughts, a lot of odds, a lot of experience with it. Yeah, I mean, I was definitely lost for a period of time, for sure. In my life. Probably around the time that I chose to stay home, my husband and I agreed, you know, that, that I would stay home. He was, you know, the primary breadwinner at the time. And, and it made sense, just economically, that I would be the one. And I was in that place that you talked about, like that incredible place of, Oh, I know exactly what my purpose is. My purpose is those two little humans and, and teaching them and growing them and nurturing them and loving them and doing everything for them. And you get lost in that place. And I'm not saying that that's not a beautiful place, and you have children, and obviously you have children to be devoted to those children and raise them and whatnot. But as I think we've all realized, over the past, I would say probably five years or so 10 years or so, maybe just even five self care is something self care and preserving or creating our own identity simultaneously, is so necessary, it is imperative that we do that. And so many of us just kind of pack up our former identity, and just put it in a little box and put it in the back of the closet. And that's where it stays. And we're so you know, laser focused on our kids. That then all of a sudden, and it happens all of a sudden, you know, it is gradual, but then it's not because all of a sudden you're at that point where you're like, well, they don't need me at all, for almost anything except maybe some cash from time to time. And laundry and food. So, and then all of a sudden you're like What the hell am I What am I supposed to do now? Like, where do I go? What do I do and, and it's really hard. And I was definitely in that space. And what really did help me was kind of this organic, tripping and falling into this life within the school system that I had. And that became a path that felt right to me for so many years. And for so many reasons. You know, and then I had a chance to, you know, write books for a living and do what I'm doing now. And it evolved, but it was only because I basically, like pulled on my big girl pants and said, I, I have to have something that is for me, I have to figure out what that is, and who that is. And you know, and honor what I need for my life. Because I've just spent the last, you know, 20 something years, giving my children what they needed. And the more attention that I started paying on myself. And the more I did for the benefit of my own growth, and the more I prioritized that the healthier I was everywhere else in my life, like bottom line, and it was work. It was working, and it continues to be work. But it's such powerful, unnecessary work. Hmm. You know, so lately, That's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's something that I, I could not exist without things for myself, honestly, I just go, like, go more mental than I am now. No, I get it, I get it have to have, it's just, ah, I don't know. I, it's so it is so necessary. And you know, it's interesting, like, like, I was saying before, like, I couldn't, I couldn't be a stay at home mom, like I just, I have so much respect for for moms that do that, because I just couldn't do it. You know, and we're all different in what we need. And, and that kind of stuff. I just Yeah, I don't know. But first of all, there's nothing I love better than a good Blab. That's, you know, that's where all the best ideas and you know, and experiences come from our blabbing. But like, I just have such respect for for all the different varieties of parenting that there are out there, like you've got the stay at home mom, or you've got the mom that those the hybrid, or you've got the mom that goes into the office every day or, you know, and every thing in between. And, you know, there's, there's just so much credit, I think to be given, for people who understand, like, this is where I'm really good. This is where I'm really great. And this is where I need to make sure that a lot of my attention is focused, and but it's also over here too. So it's like, you know, it's just it, we're constantly building on ourselves. And, and, and I love that there's so much inspiration for doing it in so many different ways. And there isn't one way that's, that's better or more accomplished than any other way. They're just great examples. And that just inspires me when I see that. Yeah. And it kind of this, this, someone's going off on a tangent never it kind of makes me it makes me sad for a lot of sets the word, but it Yeah, it does. It makes me sad for for previous generations of women whose role it was exclusively to be a mother, you know, like, there wasn't a choice. It was like, when you got pregnant, you left work, because you had to give the jobs to the single women, right? When they got married, they had to quit their jobs. You know, just all the things that women would have wanted to do. You know, and if they did do it, they were judged so harshly for, you know, doing the wrong thing. And putting that in air quotes again. You know, just the opportunities that we have now, because of the work that previous generations have done to get us to this point is tremendous. Because I just think if I hadn't lived in that era of my grandmother, yeah, I would. I would know, you and I would have gone on an island somewhere. Like another community where we could do anything we wanted because i It's funny, I often think about that my daughter, my oldest and I seem to fall into this conversation all the time about different periods of time, where we felt she she would have preferred living during like, caveman era for something she's got lots of wrist very funny, lots of reasons why, but with that I don't need to go into but that was like her period of time. And I, you know, I would have loved to have lived I think during the 60s. I mean, I was a child of the 60s but I was an infant. I would have liked to have had that experience because it was such an explosive period of time in the world. But I also think that you I don't think I could have survived it just like you like, I know, like, I would have known if I was the person I am today that back then I would have been like, Oh, hell no, like, I'm gonna work. No, like equal salary equal opportunity. I'm gonna work from home, my husband's gonna raise the kid, you know, and I think I made it would have made a lot of enemies back then because I just wouldn't have tolerated it. But yeah, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those, you know, those pioneers who came before us for sure. Absolutely. stuff without them. Oh, yeah. See, even like, when I watch, I really love period dramas. I can't even think like the Jain is and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you just think those those skills there are in? What's that one that's on the British and, you know, you get a taste for it. There's one of the daughters, who just, you know, wants to do our own thing doesn't want to get married, you know, you just think how much of that would have gone on. But no one would have had a choice. It's just you had to do this, you had to marry this bloke for money, because it kept your family going, you know, all the sacrifices that women would have made to think Christ at night. Just, it's, it's really disturbing. Like, read it. i Yeah, it's disturbing. And I also feel like such deep sadness that so many generations of women had to live such a pressed lives, and we're so limited and these brilliant, capable humans, were forced to do like, one of three things. Either you were going to be a teacher, or you were, you know, a mother or a homemaker or that was it. And, um, yeah, we we've, we've definitely come a long way. And, you know, I'm excited to see how much further we can go. But like, I'm just really grateful that I'm kind of living in the period of time that I'm living right now. Yeah. I would not have made it yet. You, so you mentioned your daughter there. Briefly, I wanted to ask, as a mom of two girls, is it important for you to sort of role model the fact that as a mom, you can do anything you want? That? You can? You can? Yeah, the sky's the limit, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's always been incredibly important to me. And I think that the reason why it's, it's so deeply embedded in me is because of my own mother, and because of what my own mother has both gone through and accomplished in in her life. I mean, my mother, you talk about, like what people were supposed to do at certain times, you know, in history, my mother, when she went to school, went to high school was, was just such a strong and capable student she loved, she loved school, she loved the whole learning process. But she came from a family that was a very lower income family, everybody worked, and she wanted to go off to college, they couldn't afford college. So as soon as she graduated with honors from high school, she went to work with my grandmother. And so, you know, then my mother got married and worked a part time job in a nursing home. And my all of all of my experiences with you know, when I think of strong women, it all traces back to what my mother did. My mother was became a widow when she was 40. She had never had a college degree. She had to raise now a family by herself, a child by herself live in a home by herself. And my mother went back to school, six months after my father passed away, went back to college for five years at night, got her degree, worked, got a good job, you know, was the most present and hands on parent and it was because of that, like, I saw that. I saw that, you know, my mother and I used to do homework together in her bedroom at four and 5am in the morning, because that's the only time she could do it. She wanted to do it in a way that it wouldn't disrupt our dynamic. And so I started doing that with her and it just she and she alone was the one that that proved to me that like the sky is the limit. You can do anything that you set your mind to that women are so resilient. Humans are so resilient and I always wanted my daughters to feel that way. So it's, you know, when I started getting opportunities to do the things that I really wanted to do, like, I wanted to be on the radio, I wanted to write books, I, you know, I wanted to put myself out there, it was scary as hell, because, you know, you put content out there on a regular basis, and you know, that not everybody receives what you put out there well, and I was like, nope, gonna, gonna go gonna go ahead and do it. And as a result, you know, my, I've watched my daughters grow into their independence and want to just kind of, like, grab life by the throat and say, here I come. And it's beautiful. And it's, it's necessary, and if it doesn't come from us, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to be wired that way in their life. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah, when they get from us, and, and my husband too, is, is has always been so is, you know, inspiring in that way, and supportive and, you know, has built us up and motivated us and encouraged us to, you know, and supported us to get out there and do all the things. You know, so having those positive influences really makes a huge impact. Yeah, that's it is it? It's like they, if they grow up with that, that that positive messaging from the beginning, it's like, that's, they're gonna take that through their lives and keep passing it on. And, you know, that just keeps rolling on all that. All that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Something I've just started talking to moms about, I'm gonna make it an official topic, because I'm getting really interested in this lately. It's funny how like, like, you're talking before how you get led in certain ways, and you do different things that you might have been planning. Same happens with, like, the topics I talk about, they sort of evolve over time. And one thing that keeps coming up is this, the value, a big thing is through the pandemic, when things got shut down, as particularly in Australia, you know, we had the restriction on movements between our states, but our sports people, mainly sports men, were able to basically do whatever they liked, or the football and the soccer or continued, but the arts and anything sort of creative, like performance, you know, the shows, all that sort of stuff, that all got shut down. And that sort of is sort of sparked a bit of a, a conversation or a thoughts around the value that we place on the arts, and then that sort of snowballed into the value that we place on a mother that is a creator, you know, is it? Is it okay for her to do that? Because that's not a roll. Putting that in air quotes again. Yeah, you know, she's meant to raise children. So how do we view the mother? That is the Creator? Do you have any thoughts on that? I've just spread me sweat on you. Yeah, no, I like I like when people throw questions like that at me that I don't see coming. You know, I think that it goes back to what we talked about a little while ago, that we, we and I say we, in terms of women, mothers have had to fight for our position. And, and it's been a very challenging fight. And, you know, I think by default, we, you know, when you think of parents, you naturally just automatically assume that the mother is going to be that prime caregiver. And that that has to be kind of the ultimate responsibility that, you know, that overshadows any other thing that that woman may be that you know, that she she may be a professional, she may be an artist, she may be a creator, any of those things, like, we've got to shove all that aside for 18 or so years. And we've got to focus on on, you know, the mom being the mom. I think, I think it's trending, but I don't know what you're seeing in Australia now that we're, I don't want to say that we're out of a pandemic, because we are by no means out of it. But I think that you know, I don't want to put it in these terms, but I think it is just, it's just but in these terms by default, you talk about like, oh, well, it was okay for the footballers and the men to keep doing what they were doing. Well, they were making money. It was commercial, they were making money. And I'm not to say that artists like I know that you're a singer and a songwriter, and you know, and those who are kind of deep within the arts aren't making money but they sure as hell aren't making money on the same scale, as you know, professional teams and things like that. So I think that they just got a free pass. Yeah. And we still had to stay kind of, you know, had to be kept in this role of, Oh, you guys have to be there to take care of everything else. While you know, well, well, you know, the money is being made. And, you know, there's, you know, the energy surrounding this, these, these sports and, and what comes from them has to be supported, you guys have to do the rest because by virtue of you know, parenting, I mean, it's you know, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of caregivers are moms are women. Not that there aren't plenty of stay at home dads and caregivers who are dads, but that's our role. And we have to just keep kind of breaking out of that. That, that place of that identity. And, and I think it all goes, it travels right back to the whole, you know, self care and identity conversation that we had a few minutes ago. Where's it we can't tolerate that anymore. That's the thing. We have to say, our art or our craft or our inspiration, or our creativity is just as important. And just as as necessary, and we have to fight for it. And it sucks that we have to do so much active promoting it and fighting for it. But we do and we have to do that collectively. And that's that's how we change that tide. Yeah. You know, your thoughts about it? Yeah, the thing that, yeah, then the monetary thing is a big one, isn't it? Because we obviously live in a capitalist society. So money drives pretty much everything. And that's something that has really been annoying me lately, too. It's like, because because what you're doing doesn't have a similar monetary value to what someone else is doing. It's just automatically not given the credit that the other thing is given. And that's something that annoys me. Oh, and, and I think it annoys me too. And I'm glad that we're talking about it, because it's by virtue of conversations like this, like whoever it is, that's listening to us right now. If they share that feeling, well, then that's, then there's a domino effect there. And then this conversation extends beyond you and I and extends beyond the podcast, and then it gets other people talking and gets other people aware. And then there's, then we have to kind of collectively not tolerate it anymore, recognize it? And then start talking about it so that it can be addressed. And it can change. Absolutely, yeah. And I think an example that I always go to, with this show, whenever we start talking about value, monetary value, and how society generally, judges creativity, or the arts. There was a, I'm gonna get this story wrong every time I feel like I change it every time I tell it. But one of my guests gave me an example of how her and her sister in law both had young children that the grandma was going to be looking after, while the moms were working. The grandma would look after the sister in law's children, because she was going to a proper job in a proper office, putting their near quotes again. But she wouldn't look after the artists children, because she was just fluffing it out. She wasn't actually working. And I'm praying that air quotes get. And that's just, I mean, that's could be potentially a generational thing too. But oh, sure, for sure. Yeah, it's just that kind of view of the arts and mother's creating, it just gives me the sheets and really, you know what it is? I think it's not it's like it's there's a stigma about it, that you're like taking your one in a million shot. Like if you think of, of someone who's a singer, songwriter, you know, you're doing that as a as a child or young person, you'd come home and tell your parents I'm not going to conventional following the conventional path and going to college. I'm going to pursue my degree in acting or my my acting, passion or my music, passion or my songwriting, passion, whatever it is. And I think that because it there's such a minority of people who become successful on a level that people equate with success, like you have to have like an album out to be successful. You have to have a book out to be successful. You know what I mean? There's so much. There's so many different degrees of success within that but I think that that it's it's based on? Well, it's not really legitimate, like, you're just, you know, you're just writing, you know, some some fluffy little songs here or there or you're, you know, you're painting some pretty little pictures here and there that there's no real substance or value or, or monetary piece that you can attach. So that it's like, it's it legitimized. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think that's where a good deal of the issues come from. And, you know, you think of these proper tracks, college leads to job leads to financial security. Well, people are only now just recognizing that that is not the only way. That is not the only path that is not the only measure of success like that, that that dollar sign cannot, cannot be attached to the word success anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, it just reminded me of this conversation, my son, my oldest son's 14, and he's just having to start choose his subjects for next year school. So this, you know, the pathway to whatever job he wants to do, they're starting the subjects now. And I keeps my husband's a financial planner. So humans are completely different brains, the way we think about a thing. And I keep saying to him, just do something that you enjoy doing, you know, find the thing you're passionate about, work out, if there's job around that, you know, if there's not one, make one, you know, what I mean? Like, find something that you love to do. And then my husband's like, I'll make sure you get enough money. So it's like, yeah, covering it from both sides. Yeah, that's, it's hard. Because I mean, look, we can't ignore the fact that bills have to be paid. Our kids at some point, down the line are going to have to be self sufficient. They're going out, they're going to need to live on their own, or they're going to have to buy food and gas and, and, you know, support all the things that, you know, are involved in living independently. But it's like, it's it just bums me out, when we attach like, well, you have to do you have to have a six figure job to do that well to mean that, that you are successful. And it's, it's crap. And it's setting our kids up, to be really disillusioned about doing what they really want. It's, you know, it's setting them up to believe that they shouldn't do what they really want. They should do what they really have to do. Yeah, I mean, we do have to keep it real in the sense that our children do have to learn how to support themselves. But at the same time, too, we can't, we can't make them believe that, you know, there's only one way to do that. And there's only one level at which they should aspire to do that. Yeah, that's it, isn't it. The other thing that I think is changing when we're talking about money, and, and things, there's the whole culture, I don't know. I certainly noticed over here, but it's changing now, but this culture on social media of this hustle, and you've got to always be doing something and, you know, I can't think of any, like, Girlboss and all these sort of hashtags. And it's like, you have to be driving really hard. And it's just, it's exhausting. Like, you just think when do you have time when, like, this self care, you know, actually, resting rest is not a reward for doing rest is, you know, should be something that we do naturally, because our bodies aren't supposed to go full bore all the time. You know, that culture around that, I feel like is, is definitely shifting, which is really good. It definitely is. I mean, you know, there's definitely this population that believes, especially these millennials, who believe like, you've got to have a side hustle. And you've got to also have a side hustle. And you've got to be in constant motion, and you've got to be that much more driven and that much more successful and that much more capable. And, and I think that's just coming from a place like in particular with women, it just comes from everything that you and I have already talked about in terms of like, we're kind of fighting for a position we're fighting still, to be taken seriously to be viewed equally, to be respected to, you know, and so it's, it's almost like we just, you know, we have to just go at it a lot harder to be taken even more seriously. And that's unfortunate that we that we kind of innately feel that way Yeah, it's just, it's unfortunate. And I hope that as as time goes on, and we begin to kind of normalize success, you know, you know, across across the gender spectrum, like it's, it's, you know, be just as successful as a man or a woman anything. That's, you know, it's going to take time for, I think, us to let go of that, that internal drive. Because I think it's burning a lot of people out, it's really hurting people out. You know, and I think it's causing people to be, you know, to put themselves in positions that they might not want to put themselves in, because they, you know, or do things in terms of like, jobs and opportunities, just because they feel like they have to versus they want to. Yeah, so hopefully those two scales will eventually balance. Hmm. Yeah. composure of hustle the way we do? Oh, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, it's funny, like, all this stuff that is ingrained in us as, as kids and growing up like, you always had, like college, like we call it University over here, but it doesn't have the same I don't think has the same sort of end goal. Like for you guys, like every, I'm making an assumption, but on TV shows and movies, it's like, everyone goes to college. Over here, uni is not, we don't all go to uni, it's like, if you get a job out of school, that's almost the best thing you can do. But I remember, like, like, my dad worked really long hours. You know, I think a lot of us grew up with that, that nine to five, or, you know, eight to six sort of culture around you, your parents or your your dad working. And it's like, that's what you're supposed to do, you know, and then all of a sudden, you go, Oh, actually, I don't really like this. And it's like, you start to no question stuff and see what people around you are doing. I remember the first time I realized that, I had a friend who was only working part time. And like this was when I was, you know, just out of school working as like, how can you do that? Are you supposed to be working full time? This is like, No, it was a foreign concept. From what I'd grown up, we'd say, you know, again, these little changes. And, yeah, well, it's like the whole millennial mindset. Now. And I talk about this a lot with my older daughter in particular, because even though there's only three years in between our girls, it was a, it's a big enough gap that my oldest mindset about certain things is quite different than my youngest. And they're both very, very hard workers. You know, my oldest is in graduate school right now to be a teacher. And she's also working full time and my youngest works full time in the school system. But it's funny, like, you look at the millennial, the millennial mind nowadays, and they're all like, I don't want to be an I'm not going to be in an office, I'm not going to take that job that I'm applying for, if it means I actually have to go into an office or if it means I have to travel, they're like, no, no, I'm really focusing on my work life balance right now. Like that whole generation is not having it at all. And I think too, that you know, and this goes back to one of the, like, if you have to attach a silver lining to what's happened pandemic wise, it's allowed us to do so many things from home that we otherwise just that weren't allowed before. And so it's brought the world much closer, it's made everyone and everything much more accessible as the upside. And, you know, I just look at the way that my children are now and all of these millennials are like, yeah, um, so I've been working from home for like, the last 18 months, and I'm really not planning on continuing my company, if my company is not going to allow us to do that, you know, it's just so funny. You know, and now they're all like, converting vans, and living van life and working remotely from like, deserts and, you know, and, and beaches. And, and I absolutely know that if I had been born now, if I was my 25 year old age, I would 1,000% be working remotely, I would have like a Ford van that was converted, and I would be like on the coast of Australia somewhere down the road from you, and I take home from a van and you know, and and they're they're not settling for that so they things so I guess the reason why I'm saying all that about my own kids is because it's just proof that that that tide has changed. thing that they're prioritizing. They're worse. And they're prioritizing that, that work life balance and that self care a lot more in this generation. And they're not tolerating the idea of the whole, like, nine to five and the way that it used to be like, he's so good, it's wonderful. Yeah, that's interesting about during the pandemic, like all this stuff that people would sit on, that's never possible. You can't do this, and you can't do that. And it's like, actually, you can. It's wonderful. You know, and I don't know, we learned a lot. I mean, it was horrible, still is a horrible thing that, you know, a lot of families and people have gone through, which is been really not very nice. But there has been some positives come out for, for the whole of humanity, I think, looking at things differently and challenging. Yeah. And it's that old saying, like, you know, why do we do it this way? Because we've always done it that way, you know, that, that? And I think that's a real sort of, I don't know, almost a masculine mindset. And I want to say that it sounds nasty, but no, reminds me of something my dad would say. Yeah, no, I get it. I understand why you would say that. It's, it's just because historically, that has been the mindset. That's the way things were for generations. You know, think of the hierarchy who it was that instituted those ideas and those values and you're not wrong. Yeah, I don't want to blame all the boys but we're finger pointing at you guys history. Have you got anything you want to share that you're working on at the moment or future projects coming up? Anything you want to give a shout out to and share? Where people can find you online? And that kind of stuff? Yeah, sure. I'd love to. I think I mentioned a little earlier that one of the things that's got a lot of my focus right now is mental health, and suicide prevention and awareness. And that that actually slides right into the project that I'm working on right now, which is another book that really uses my father's story, the story of my my father suicide, as just a vehicle for starting conversations and for helping people just through my own personal experience, helping people kind of travel that that road to forgiveness, if they're a survivor of suicide loss. And so that's, that's something that I'm kind of deep in the weeds with right now, doing a ton of work on and then working to be a crisis counselor with a crisis agency here in, in the United States, that I'm actually very, very excited about because that kind of all goes hand in hand. So I'm working on that. And just continuing to do lots of speaking and writing about parenting, just the way that I'm doing now on all the outlets here in the States and around, you know, around the world that that help families be happy. So that's what I'm working on. And you can find me anywhere. I mean, you can find me, my website is Lisa sugarman.com. And everything I'm working on is kind of in that one spot. Instagram is Lisa underscore Sugarman, the Lisa Sugarman on Facebook, you can join the vomit booth if you search the vomit booth on Facebook we can I will I will let you in you can just curl it all up oh definitely going to check that out. I'm really really interested in that. That sounds really good. I want all of your moms in your in your community in your area in your part of the world I want to know what's you know, what's affecting you and bringing all this it's like a clown car you can I'll millions of moms and dads and stuff you. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on later. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a really great conversation. I I've loved I've loved every minute of it too. And it's so fun for me to just to especially to hear what's going on in places where I you know, I don't I don't frequent I don't I know know what, you know what's happening in your part of the world the way You do. And so it's it's often fun to find out, you know that some things are different and some things are similar. And at the end of the day like we still It proves my point that no matter where you are and what you're doing as a mom, it's like, we're, you know, we're all part of the same community and the same family here, and we're all dealing with the same stuff. So it's fun to be able to come together and share that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for sharing so openly. And honestly, I really appreciate it. And I know my listeners will appreciate it, too. So yeah, thanks so much. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Bio Alison Newman, hailing from Mount Gambier, South Australia, is a singer and songwriter with deeply personal music. Her journey in music has been a dynamic one, marked by a diverse range of opportunities, from small vocal ensembles to large choirs and duos, all of which have contributed to her growth and the evolution of her unique musicality. Alison's musical journey has been punctuated by significant milestones. In 2019, 2020, and 2021, she was nominated for the South Australian Music Awards Folk Artist Peoples Choice Award. She clinched the South Australian State Final of Listen Up Music's 'The Songwriting Prize' in 2021 with her original song 'Pieces of My Pain', which was performed live in Sydney in January 2022 for the national prize. Alison's musical journey began in childhood when she started singing and continued to do so throughout her life. She attributes her eclectic music taste to exposure to various music genres from her family. Her earliest formal singing lessons focused on correct diaphragmatic breathing techniques, and she often performed for her family with her sister Emma during her childhood. Noteworthy is her debut album, "Heart Songs," which was released in late July 2019. Following that, she has released three standalone singles, including "Sunshine Sundays" in November 2019, "It's Not Christmas Without You" in December 2019, and "For the Rest of My Life" on Valentine's Day 2020. During the COVID-19 lockdown of 2020, Alison shared her love of creating covers in her project "Circa Aurora," where she covered well-known songs in her unique style. Looking ahead, Alison is currently immersed in creating her next album, an EP titled 'Wolf '. This project, set to be released in June 2024, delves into her personal experience with postnatal depression, promising a deeply introspective and emotive musical journey. “The Wolf plays the role of the PND, and I am akin to Little Red Riding Hood.” Three tracks from "Wolf" have been recognised as the winner of the Australian Songwriters Association. 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category. They also won the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize and were featured in the Top 100 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize 2024. Alison is also a podcaster, producing The Art of Being A Mum, a weekly podcast where Alison enjoys honest and lively chats with artists + creators about the joys + issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum + continue to create. Themes like the mental juggle, identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", cultural norms, how they give themselves time to create within the role of mothering + the value that society gives the artistic mother. Short Bio Based in Mount Gambier, Alison Newman is a singer/songwriter known for her warm, emotive voice and story driven songwriting. Alison has been performing on Limestone Coast stages since the age of 5 and in 2025 had the honour of opening for Australian rock icon Ross Wilson. After releasing her debut album Heart Songs in 2019 Alison unveiled her powerful EP Wolf in late 2024. Whether solo or with her band, Alison’s strong vocals and genuine presence create a deeply connective live atmosphere. Approved Images Listen Spotify itunes Social / Web Links www.facebook.com/AlisonNewmanVocalist www.instagram.com/Alison_Newman_Vocalist www.youtube.com/user/AlSquared001 www.alisonnewman.net The Art of Being A Mum - www.alisonnewman.net/podcast Approved Videos

Bethany Kingsley - Garner UK ballerina S3 Ep86 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley-Garner, a ballerina from the UK and mother to her 18 month old daughter.. Bethany was born in Devon, England and moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined Scottish Ballet in 2007, was promoted to Soloist in 2013, and to Principal in 2016. She has been there ever since. She was first drawn to dancing through the music, her mother would play Classic FM at home and she recalls as a 3 year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copy her. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the Wyre Drawer company leavers prize, as well as the April Oldrich Award for Most Dynamic Performer and receiving First Commendation and Young British Dancer of the Year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 productions, from Swan Lake to The Nutcracker, and recent performances of The Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US of The Crucible, in the role of Elizabeth Proctor. She's also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Bethany - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Throughout this episode you'll hear music from various popular ballet procductions, used with permission thanks to my APRA AMPOS licence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone take people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in today. It's such a pleasure to have you. I've been feeling a bit under the weather so I've been putting off recording this intro to haven't had much of a voice. But today, I'm feeling pretty good. My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley Garner. Bethany is a ballerina from the UK and a mother to an 18 month old daughter. Bethany was born in Devon in England and she moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined the Scottish ballet in 2007 and was promoted to soloist in 2013 and two principal dancer in 2016. She has been there ever since. Bethany was first drawn to dancing through the music. Her mother would play classic FM at home, and she recalls as a three year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copier. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the wire drawer company leaders prize as well as the APR which award for most dynamic performer and receiving first commendation and young British Dancer of the year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 Productions, from Swan Lake to the Nutcracker, and recent performances of the Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US presenting the crucible in the role of Elizabeth proctor. Bethany has also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Throughout this episode, you'll hear music from various popular ballet productions, which I can use thanks to my APRA amcos Mini online licence. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you Bethany. It's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Hi, thank you for Gabby God, I'm excited to speak to you because in in whole time I've been doing this a couple of years. I've only had one other. I'm not gonna say ballerina because I don't think that do you like to be called a ballerina? I can be called ballerina you can be okay because I had a principal dancer from the Australian ballet. And she didn't want to be called a ballerina. She just want to be called principal dancer. So I've had two ballet dancers on my podcast now which is really exciting. So we're about to you at the moment to paint a picture for the listeners. I'm currently in Scottish ballet HQ, which is in Glasgow in Scotland. And we are back in our studios. We are mid tour of the strangeling at the moment so we are leaving to Newcastle today. Oh wow. Literally in the thick of it right now. Yeah, we're nearly at the end. We started about two months ago so we are we're close to the end and we had 74 shows of The Snow Queen this year. Holy moly. Is that how many days a week he performing that so we have a performances Wednesday to Saturday and there's three double show days. Where houses Batson that I mean this is the thing I discovered. Data Stephenson who As the other ballerina I've had on the show, she blew my mind with how much work you guys do like not just the performance, but then all of the rehearsing. And then like you rehearsing probably new shows while you're performing. The show the doing it was like, blew my mind. How are we on the show on the road? We don't stop then making it better or rehearsing or keeping the stamina up. So yesterday, I still rehearsed for Newcastle this week, even though I've done how many shows? Yeah, keeping it fresh, keeping it in the body? Tell us how you first got into dancing. How did you get first into the ballet music? Yeah, it was my mom used to play classic FM at home. And I remember even from the age of about three or four. So my first memories of just feeling something in my veins in my DNA and wanting me to move almost out of my control. And that was I guess the start of me developing into the ballerina I am today. So I was had a very supportive family who supported me all the way through that journey. And I went to the Royal Ballet School in London, at 11. And now I can't even imagine being a mother. That kind of pain that my family went through, but they knew that that's what I wanted to do. And I graduated with honours in 2007. And then I came straight to Scottish ballet. But it was a really beautiful journey. I had an I had a lovely time. I had a lot of time at boarding school. I think it's when you're around people that love this art form and around people have the same interest. And that really makes it because before when you're kind of a normal primary school, you're juggling both you're doing academic you may be any two in your year group that like to dance. So all of a sudden you're put into this world of the whole year group doing all together so that was really lovely. And you wouldn't have those outside distractions to you'd be like supremely focused on that you want to attend. I mean, I'm extremely homesick especially for the first time I say three to maybe four years. But something kept me there. Something in my you know, my heart my soul. I remember counting down the days before the weekend. Every night but I once I was into it, I was fine. Yeah, so we're about the suit was you're like Where were your family in relation to where were you in in you being in London. So they are in the south country. So in Devon, so it's around a drive around three hours drive. And very different countryside beaches, very rural. And then kind of you're in the centre of what especially the Upper School of London, you're in Covent gardens, you're already in the hustle and bustle. So two very contrasting worlds. Hey, just Well, you've mentioned Devon is that I went to London many years ago and we caught a train. I'm not very good with this geography. It was a place called pool is that anywhere is that we're even further down so right at the very bottom you've got Cornwall and then Devon so it's really the bottom of Southwest. Yeah, right. Is it got like big cliffs and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I can I can visualise I reckon. I think it might be a popular place for people like making movies and stuff and TV shows because I swear I've seen I've Googled it before and I would have done yeah, did you so you live you've lived up in Scotland since you joined by going on to my my 17th season next year with squid. That's my that's awesome. Wow. And I noticed you haven't really picked up an accent. No, I really haven't. I my husband's Scottish and he's quite roared. No, I really haven't. Maybe because it's still I'm still surrounded by not, you know, in our work environment. We don't have really broad Scottish accents and maybe that's why on the webpage for the Scottish ballet, your, your your page that features you, there's this amazing photo of you, which I if you'll let me I want to share with the listeners in the in a link. You just like it's black and white. And you've like got wings as part of your costume and you're like, you look like this bird of prey, basically. And you've got these massive beautiful eyes like really dark makeup diamonds on Oh, it's just stunning. It's just like, whoa, was that for role was that for like a photoshoot? That that was for the role of the self and Matthew Barnes Highland fling. Wow, I'm gonna have to read to you. I actually made it. You know, I was jumping on a trampoline. Yeah, right? You try and just kind of using my arms like wings, and they and they got the perfect. Oh, it's just unreal. I was just, and it like, it like slaps you in the face. When you come on to your why'd you like, Wow, that's incredible. So, as part of your dancing, I guess in addition to the music and the costumes, there's quite a lot of acting. And like detail encompassing the character? Do you really enjoy that side of it as well, I love that. There's not, I don't believe there are many jobs out there where you can actually transform into someone else for you know, a few hours and become that kind of emotional connection. And emotive and then come out of it and go in character in there. And I guess be a mom. That's what makes you into your kind of your depth character as well. You keep digging deeper into roles, especially now that I'm on my, you know, going into my 17 season. There's roles that I've done before. So that's nice to keep coming back as now I feel completely different to how I felt, you know, a few years ago. Yeah, absolutely. Before we start talking about you, your transition to motherhood, I really want to ask, do you have like some particularly favourite roles that you've played over the years. So the most challenging is probably Swan Lake. And I think that dancers love a challenge and the physical challenge. But also, it's one that you just feel like you have left everything on the stage. So you could almost walk off and you could see your blood, sweat and tears line there. So you really give everything one that's very close is the Snow Queen what we're doing at the moment, I was part of the creation process three years ago. And it just has a real special place in my heart and I feel otherworldly when I perform it really, really connected to the work. Yeah, that's cool. Do you find with Swan Lake, do you feel any sort of pressure because people know it so well? Like your audience has probably seen it or heard of it before? Do you feel that pressure to? I don't know, live up to maybe people's expectations? Probably not cracker. I actually feel that everyone knows music. Yep. But no, actually, I didn't feel that was Swan Lake. I felt very much I am. This is this one I'm going to be? Yeah, I felt empowered with that. Yeah, you bring your own and your own take on I guess. I have a daughter Elizabeth, who is 18. She's 18 months where? So how did it go then? And I'm just going back to I guess the previous conversation I've had had with Jana that you can feel so much pressure as a dancer that your career is going amazing. And it's usually at that same time is when you're in your childbearing years. So it's often a real pool of what do you choose to do? I guess Did you feel anything like that when you're thinking about having your daughter? No. Maybe I'm on the I'm on the other end. I feel that I'm the it for now. So maybe I left it to a point where I felt as if I had reached a certain level in my career. There's no you never go into thinking about having a child. Knowing that you'll definitely come back? I think because you don't know. So I think that probably had more of an impact on me, then, kind of where I was. I mean, it was very quick for me to feel that I knew I wanted to come back. But I always had that had, at the back of my heart, in my mind, be prepared to have something else in your, you know, ready. If this wasn't the life you wanted with your family. Did that did that sort of bring you a lot of sadness, thinking that you might not go back to dancing was that like a really big decision to sort of, to think that that might happen? I feel that I will never not want to do it. Because it's part of who I am. It's, it's in my, you know, I've mentioned, it's in my DNA. That's how that's how I feel. But I know that I would like to do something else. And I look back, and I feel extremely proud of this length of career and what I've given it so far, there will always be sadness, because it's something that you've dedicated your life to. But now as a mother of it's, I feel it lated now and so much love for another another life also, huh? Yeah. Did you have it in your head? Right from the start that you try and come back? I guess it did things go well, then that you're able to come back when you want to I had about, I talked to my director and I had about five different scenarios. ABCD and you know, all because, you know, respectfully, they're also running a business. So for a principal dancer to dip out for a long period of time, I'd always want to let them know. Roughly when they're thinking about the planning and, and everything we actually did go with Plan A, which was very surprised. But I had, I think the smooth the birth was ever so smooth. Yeah, the recovery was very smooth. So that all went into factors. But you you know, you have no idea. You need that many different scenarios, because each step of the way something can happen. emotional implications of when you're suddenly there with your child have the thought about going back to work, huh? Yeah, yeah. All those all those things, but I, I never really stopped moving. Even when, when I was she was home and maybe two weeks, I had her in the sling rocking, I used to sign on to, you know, some ballet classes from home and just enjoy that movement. And that bonding time with her. I was sharing that world that life. She was now in it with me. And that was lovely. Now that's That is awesome. And I think like, a lot of the moms I have on the show. They like you that you have something that you love so much. Like you just think you've got to keep doing it. You know, it's just part of you and you couldn't you couldn't really imagine not doing it and you sort of find ways to keep doing it and make adjustments you know, now that you're a mother she obviously knows that. I was a dancer. Yeah, she died when she was a few weeks old in my tummy when I was doing class, but yeah, she does. Yeah, she's always by my side. So we are a touring company. So she tours with me. And it's actually quite nice because we kind of get a little bit more time on tour on my hours or less with performing so I'm kind of not in the you know, in the studio all day and she comes to the theatre she may be watching the end of class laughs I take her on stage to watch a show. And that's just things like that, you know, I was sat with her on the set of snowpine. It's got a beautiful throne. And at that moment, when you're in the performance, you're sat there looking into a piece of ice. Just about to do the last part of the really tough on your point, you're really tired. And I had her with me sat there, and we just had a picture. And I was showing her the throne. She was playing with the fare on it. And now I'm on stage and I'm sat there and that's my memory. I have almost I can smell her. And it gives me so much strength. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I got goosebumps when you talk about that. Like, it's it's beautiful. Like, she's literally part of that world. Like, yes, she's there. Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Do you feel like it's important to you that she sees what you're doing? Like, I mean, I guess at her age, she hasn't got this concept of perhaps identity, the way we construct in our minds, but she's not, you're not just her mom, you have a life where you do things just on your own. I'm always knew. And you know, very much the same path as Stewart, my husband as well, that we wanted her to come in to our life. But in a way our life is how it is. Because it's the happy it's working. It's full of love. And I was quite strong on having that connection of who I am in the ballet world in the studio, that she was also in it. I think it's not a great territory when you try and keep them to separately. Because it, I find that I have no kind of stresses or worries, because if I need to have her here, then I'll bring her if I need to step away, then I will go and I think it's taking that control and that's that's my family life and that will come first. So you're talking about you're a touring company. So how far away do you go? Like what sort of an average tour I suppose an average tour is not too far. It's about the weekend at the Scottish main cities like Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, and then we come further down south to Newcastle. But we are going to America next year where she will be coming. So that'll be fun for that flight. Yeah, so we do we tour about three times a year. So that's like kind of our main bulk everything. Yeah. And then the rest of the time you rehearsing. Always rehearsing and we're seeing ballet class. Oh, yeah. That's unreal, isn't it? Do you? Do you sometimes think about your life and think this is amazing that I get to do what I love so much. Like do you have those moments where you just, I think like when I put my bike tights on in the morning, I think this is bizarre. Like it's sometimes you know, when I look around the room at people early in the morning doing doing a play is weird but wonderful world that it's just acceptable to be wearing lycra all day. And feel comfortable in it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, there's no judgement. like to talk to all my moms on the show about this concept of mom guilt, and I put that in air quotes, because I know some people don't feel it and that's awesome. And then others have issues and struggles with it, but I wanted to know what your thoughts were about it. My first emotionals reaction to feeling that I wouldn't be with her all the time was when. I mean, we actually had to put her in her own room. We knew It was time. And it was I was by her crib, she'll bedside crib and just crying for so long. The thought of her being on her own three steps away from me was, you know, heartbreaking. And I guess that's the kind of the process isn't it of finding the independence between mother and child. But that was a huge I really was. I guess it took me a little bit of surprise how physical I reacted to that feeling of just of just pushing her having her own space to sleep. Which she absolutely loved. So it was totally on me. Nothing on her. Yeah, she was fine. Then, when I first went to the theatre I had been waiting for this moment for so long. I'm gonna be back the smell of the side stage, the laying out my changing room. And I was in the car. I left it so my husband say that she would have been asleep. It was late in the evening, we had dinner and I gave my first dress rehearsal. And out just out of nowhere in the car. The tears tears came. And it was I stopped for a minute and thought is this is this? What you want to do? Is this right for her? Is this right for the family everything. And it was just it was all our I was the only one feeling there. You know, she was touched up at home. And I knew that then when I went back the next day. Well, she would when she broke up. I would have felt so good. That I was I managed to do both in a in a way that was still no one lost out except for maybe my emotions, but I would take that for anything. Yeah, I think that's how I kind of just constantly going back thinking okay, is this life is this spy world? Is this job working for the family? Is it making us happy and, and loving? And are she getting? We're getting the most time together? And it always comes back to Yes. So the feelings I'm feeling it and you just take the brunt don't you? Just go I take it. Yeah, yeah, that's that. That's that's really good. Because I feel like there's no escaping. There's no escaping that emotional pool. There's no escaping that. And then I think it's like gorgeous. Yes. I mean, it's what makes us a mother, isn't it? You know? But then it's that next step of like, you could have turned around and gone back home that night, you know, in the car. Oh, yeah. But it's like that what we do next? That's that's our beat. Then we go ride a lot. And like you said, we were that that emotional pain. We go oh, that, you know, you're but then we go on? And we do and like you said you felt you knew you were gonna feel amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a funny old thing that that mom guilt, isn't it? Someone said, there's a lady I had on the show. I can't remember who it was now. So apologies. But she she had this idea that mom guilt was this. It was a innate ingrained thing from biological evolution that basically made us not forget the child, you know, like, it was just, you know what I mean? Like, it was just something that had to be in us to make us you know, not leave it out, where it could be endangered, you know, in, I don't know, in the caveman days or something, you know, like something like that? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. The another thing I like to really chatter about is the changes in our own identity when when we become a mom. How did you cope with that? Now, I'm a very different person, but I didn't see that I didn't feel the change, it just happened. And the differences is I definitely know who I am. I think when you go through something that's like a child. And it's you're just giving everything and you're not thinking it's not you in that moment. It's not you in that time, it's you're giving you reach a point in your life. But you know, the people which have been able to have this amazing thing happened to them. Very rarely are you at that point where you would do anything? You're doing everything to have a this dispersed. And just, I think more I use the word empowered, but not in a way of Yeah, gritty. Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's in a way of mothering, of embodied and gathering, I feel the strength from everything that I'm, I'm doing, I can arrive at work, and I've been up to six hours, just silly things, but it makes you feel like, okay, I'm a, I'm okay, today, I'm what you knows is everything settled and happy. And so that's how I feel, and nothing to lose, I now have nothing to lose. For myself for her and, yeah, no, I love that. That's really that's really cool way of putting it. So before we talked about, that, you've done a couple some roles that you've done more than once. And I wanted to take you back to that about him. You said how when you're at different stages in your life? Have you had any sort of times where you've been very conscious of the fact that now that you are a mother that you approach the rolls differently? Or is it just something that happens with time? So I didn't prep you for this one. Um, my first season back, I did the ballet called My scandal at Milan. And I play two roles. And one of the roles was a bride that actually was a you know, it was a bedroom scene, but it was extremely rough and violent. And this is my first season that year after. So I felt a lot more in tune of where I was being touched, right. And whereas pre birth, I guess, physically, I would have just ran into that not even second, and then it was cool. Oh, yeah, it was a little bit more tentative. I wasn't in my own skin yet. Now I am. But this unit, you're talking maybe seven months after? So you're really like, is my leg coming with me? Or is it still on the other side of the room? On the floor today, or are they going to be touching like it was really sort of, but I had heart and soul in it. But yeah. So physically, that's, I'm not as carefree as I was with my body. Letting maybe awesome fight or flight mode. I'm a bit nervous being lifted. Never used to. Yeah. But now I have something to seriously not get injured for. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Is it bigger? There's a bigger picture. Somebody gets scared of flying or you know, height. And it's that similar thing of, I'm a bit more careful with myself. That's a really that's a really cool observation, isn't it? Yeah. Because I guess if you weren't in the inner city ration where you were really shocked around and you might not ever notice the basic things like when you're crossing the road by yourself or when you're crossing the road with your child. You're very different. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, can I make the lights off? Nope. We're gonna wait for the Green Man. Yeah, I think it's that similar thing. But she was in me, even though she wasn't in the studio at the time, just as I was getting back. So that's the main shift I found out, huh? Yeah, I thought that's really cool. There's a lot of us that may or may not be able to relate to that. Because it's the level of physicality that some of us may or may not have. But that's a really cool observation. I really liked that. I also wanted to ask, how did you find, you know, when you're pregnant, and you get that, like, I can't think what the thing is. It's like elastin or something happens in your hormones release these. What's it called? relaxing? Relaxing? Yeah. Did that change your your body heat, and it took so long to go? Yeah, right. So where I think you just feel more gooey. But you know, you're carrying you want, you don't want the body to be whole, stiff, you want it to be looser, I felt a lot at the back of my knees. So when we straighten things, normally, they would kind of lock and I had so much still in it still, when I was back that seven months that my legs were a bit like chicken legs, they were still sort of rebounding back. Yeah. And structurally, physically, you know, my physical shape has changed, probably not to, you know, an audience member. But to my own, maybe the people closest around me. It's that hip structure. It's the the widening the ribcage, you know, when you go through something like breastfeeding. It's the more broad you get in there. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. And that's yeah, and being doing something that you you're so aware of your body, it'd be interesting to to see those little nuance changes. And yeah, I did a lot of them. I worked with my physio through the whole time. But just that was really interesting. Just working on things like my turnout. So you know, in dance, classical ballet, the main thing is we have to rotate from the tops of our legs. Well, if my pelvis changes just a tiny bit, how would that how would that tweak that? Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting, isn't it? I find it really fun. I guess Yeah. Somebody else I've started talking to moms about lately, especially moms who you know, have who work it use their art as you know, a career when you were growing up, what sort of role modelling did you have from from your own upbringing about what a mother could look like? What you sort of options were as a as a mother I guess. So my mum was so passionate, so passionate to let us fulfil our dreams and confidence building and I think I can see myself now with Elizabeth just imparting little things. I know you can do you know what walking, you can do it? No, you can. So I had that kind of structure and I had an older sister who was very fat, very musical, but very outgoing and confident. So I think those those things in your life they rub off on you. They are an upper New and then I guess in the kind of artistic world. There were just so many so many dancers from the Royal Ballet that used to watch and see teachers as he used to impart a few words of wisdom, I do a little bit of teaching now. And it can make or break students. And that's, you know, a such a powerful role of being a teacher. Especially when you're maybe more of a vulnerable age, as a giant where you hold on to every word, I think we can probably all remember, a praise. And we can all remember a negative thing that has, you know, it's so important. Definitely, you think about that when you're raising a child of the implications of words. And think of what they will pick up on. So important. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Because I think a lot of time we sort of, we might use a term as a throwaway term or say something we don't necessarily mean, but that's what your child he is. And then they hold on to that. Yeah, so yeah, it's when when you just said about you'll always remember praise and, you know, a negative comment straightaway, I just went, went back to little Alison doing singing lessons like it just straightaway, back to that space. Like it's yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It is, isn't it? Yeah. stuff. I haven't thought about it for years now. But okay. Thanks. I'll leave that bit. So, tell us where you're going. We will be going on to our spring season, which is the Tennessee Williams story of A Streetcar Named Desire. Oh, awesome. Oh, love is a ballet that we have done before we actually created it a Scottish ballet a few years ago. So I'm revisiting it, which is going to be so lovely. And I love the story ballet. And then we will be touring that in the spring, around to Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow, and the spring seasons, always the nicest because of the blossoms and blooms and the weather. Just start starting in Scotland. It's not always great, but it just starts to free up the frost. Yeah, and you get blue skies. And then we will be preparing for our American tour in May, which is to Washington, Charleston and Nashville, like so. And will that be the same show that you were to the crucible? So another story? Yeah, right. It's funny. We were just talking about that today. Sorry, on a completely different I'm just I was just talking about that today with my son. Yeah. Because it's something which Charles Yeah. Elizabeth proctor? Oh, pregnant. It's just I mean, you know, I couldn't play a more authentic role. Really? It's just lovely. Oh, how exciting. Have you done that one before? Is that a new one for you? I actually created an Elizabeth proctor around about four years ago. And I have performed it now being a man we performed it back in London. Yes, and this has been my second time now. Oh, lovely. Oh, that's exciting. So I'll put some links in the show notes where people can check out where you guys are and if you're in the neck of the woods, I say hello. All moms just sometimes just pat themselves on the back and be like You're awesome. I think to your friends, you maybe don't have children. I think it's it's a really lovely trait that they you know, they try and you keep those conversations and you try and understand and still meant bringing your children into because that's also another huge dynamic shift. I'm actually the only dancer in the company currently with a child. Yeah, right. So just just things like that, but I don't feel it's a, because she's constantly in the conversation or they ask and I think keeping things like that open is important. Yeah, she's a part of it. It's not. It's not like this this taboo subject that we don't talk about with Bethany. You know, it's, she's, she's part of it all. Yeah. All thank you so much for coming on. Like, it's just been so lovely chatting to you, and all the rest with your dancing and on your tour and everything and oh, yeah, I'll keep I'll keep my eye out for you. If you ever come to rescind your Alia, I know. Please. I mean, I will keep you know on social media with you. And if it's anything else, from a UK tie in, I'm here and I'm for you. And yeah. Oh, thank you. Appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Danielle Kloberdanz Netherlands born author S2 Ep52 Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Danielle Kloberdanz, an author based in San Diego, California and a mother of 4. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands. A child of 3, Danielle was always interested in children, and began baby sitting the neighbours children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families, and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development and went on to study Developmental Psychology at College, It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who was soon to be her husband, 9 months later in fact! They enjoyed a whirlwind romance, travelling Europe together, before being married and settling down. Her dream was to have 4 children, and Danielle was determined to make that happen, even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Danielle finally realised her lifelong dream of having 4 children, it was then that she slowly realised that she no longer existed as a person, and her idea of what being a 'good mum' meant, was challenged. Danielle released her first book Inner Compass Mom: Finding Peace and Purpose in the Midst of Motherhood in May 2021 which outlines her journey, and the life changing experience which lead to her new outlook on motherhood. **This episode contains discussions around miscarriage, premature birth, ** Connect with Danielle Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Danielle Clover Dan's an author based in San Diego, California, and a mum of four children. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands, a child of three. Danielle was always interested in children and babies, and she began babysitting the neighbor's children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development, and went on to study developmental psychology at college. It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who assumed to be your husband. Nine months later, in fact, they enjoyed a whirlwind romance traveling Europe together before being married and settling down. Her dream was always to have four children. And Danielle was determined to make that happen. Even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Daniel finally realized her lifelong dream of having those four children, it was then that she slowly realized that she no longer existed as a person. And her idea of what being a good mom meant was challenged. Danielle released her first book, inner compass mum finding peace and purpose in the midst of motherhood in May of 2021. The book outlines her journey and the life changing experience which led to her new outlook on motherhood. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and premature birth. Music you'll hear today is from Australian ambient music trio LM Joe, featuring myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John N is used with permission. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome along today, Danielle, it's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. I am intrigued by your podcasts and listened to several and Oh, thank you. I was excited to be on this one. Awesome. Wow, what time is it in your your zone? Well, we've just gone past 11:30am So it's quite a nice Sunday morning. Just nice and lazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. It looks sunny in your place. Yeah, I've had to close the blinds because the sun's coming in so much. It's like distorting, like how I look to you. Yes, I can see the glow. I have to do some artificial glow because the sun is going down here. So yeah. What's the what's the time there? It's 7pm. Right. Yeah. We just had the time change the, you know, daylight savings. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you right now. In San Diego, San Diego, San Diego, California. Right now you're in San Diego. But whereabouts did you start out in life? Well, I was born and raised in Holland, in the Netherlands. And I well, I moved to San Diego or to actually to Orange County, California, at the age of 26, barely 26. But before I met my husband, I you know, just did the normal thing and went to college to study developmental psychology in Amsterdam. And then I, I had, you know, a job for about a year it was hard to find a job in my field actually. And I worked at a temp agency for a year and that's when I met my my husband during that time. But yeah, so I just I, to be honest, I never really cared about a career. I just wanted to have a family and but what do you do? You're not just gonna sit around wait for some guy to come along. Are you, you know, you got to make some of your life and then hopefully it all happen. So I went to college, and I always loved babysitting, I loved hanging out with kids, I loved watching their, you know, development and how they think and how they would learn. So I was intrigued by children's. So developmental psychology really seemed to fit fit me. And so that's what I pursued. And yeah, until I met my husband, when I was 25. Actually, he got married when I was 26. And then I moved over to the United States. Yeah. So that that interest in wanting to become a mom, that intense drive, was that something cultural or something that you'd been exposed to growing up? Was that sort of the norm that you would grow up? Women would have children? Or was that something innate in yourself? Do you think? Well, my mom was a stay at home mom, until I was and I'm, I'm the youngest of three, I have two older sisters, and we're all a couple of years apart. And then my mom started working when I was in my mid teens, so to say, but I always just I wanted to be a mom, I wasn't sure what I would. I wasn't really sure what I was good at. Like in school, I was kind of an average student, like, nothing really stood out. The actually the best the subject that was that was easiest for me, was actually English, English is mandatory middle school and high school. And that was the only subject that was kind of came more natural to me. It turned out came in handy later, for sure. But I was intrigued by by science, but I wasn't very good at it. You know, like math, oh, my gosh, you know, just just not my thing. So I was like, What am I good at? What is my passion. And then I started babysitting the family across the street from us when I was like, 12, just an hour. So mom could do groceries, and I just loved it. And they, they had a big family, they ended up having five kids. And the parents themselves were from large families. So whenever there was a birthday party, I was invited, and the whole house was just filled with this wonderful energy. People were laughing and having wonderful comfort stations. And everybody just seemed happy. And I just wanted to create a big happy family for myself. And that's all I really wanted. I just wanted to be a stay at home mom, and I thought I would thoroughly enjoy it. Well, we'll talk about that later how to, you know, the life that I wanted happen and then, you know, it turns out isn't really as fulfilling as I had hoped it would be. talking us through, you know, you met your husband, you got married? Was it then like straight away? Right, let's do this. We're gonna have this family that I've always dreamed of. How did how did it sort of go from there? Yes. So when? So I met my husband at my sister's wedding actually, she was able, I mean, we all grew up in Holland. You know, we my sister, so but she was able to get a two year visa to work in the US. And during that time she met a guy decided to marry him. And so we went to the wedding. And that's where I met my husband. And we so we dated for a while. I mean, nothing happened at the wedding. People can read the story in my mom, they can read all the details and how all that went down. But basically, because I was living in Holland, we basically dated internationally and we traveled in Europe and we dated in you know, Belgium like Bruges and Antwerp and Barcelona and then basically, seven months, but no, it was eight months after we met he proposed to me in in Prague, so and the next month we were married so like within like nine months out After we met, we were married. And we, we read it, and then a couple months later was able to emigrate. Yeah, we were married in February. And I emigrated in April. So that all happened really fast. And so we decided to wait a little bit with having kids because also, my husband wanted to get his master's in business. So we decided to just get that out of the way before we'd have kids and enjoy a little bit more freedom before you know, babies would arrive and get to know each other even better each other nine months. But I will say, when you travel together, you get to know each other really fast. And it's either going to work or it's not. And it was going to work. So we we were just both convinced, you know, once you know, you just know. And we just celebrated our 24th wedding anniversary. Stories isn't it's a real love story. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. My husband comes from a large family. By the way, I was thrilled to find out when I met him, and we get to know each other, that my husband is one of eight children. He's number five. And I just loved it. And his older siblings already had kids. And so every family get together was just filled with, you know, that same kind of energy. The laughter everybody's talking, and just having a great time and bringing up both stories from the past. And just I don't know, there's just something about big families that I just love. And yeah, so he's like, Okay, you want to have kids? Okay, well, three, or fours. What do you have in mind? Well, first half of what I grew up with, so I guess, we'll figure out how to manage that my mum managed to, you know, raise eight children. I don't know how she did it. Anyway, yeah. So yeah, so you're pretty happy with four. Four is a good number. Well, it's an even though it I was I was the last one of three. So sometimes I did feel like, you know, my two older sisters would, would play together. And I was always a little too young or third wheel basically. So I always figured, you know, if possible, even numbers, and my husband loves numbers. He loves even numbers. He's, he's his background is in accounting. He's not he does production now. But he, he loves even balance. And it worked out well actually. Having two sets of kids basically. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. The first two are close in age. They're 19 months apart. And and then I felt tell you after the second one, because I always had complicated pregnancies. I was putting bedrest I had preterm labor with every every child. With the first one. I made it to 38 weeks, so I thought, well, maybe it wasn't that big of an issue. Maybe we'll be fine. So we tried for another one. And I, I got pregnant, fast. And so they're 90 months apart, but I was definitely put up that this again with the second one. So she was actually born five weeks, early at 35 weeks. But the fine she was in the NICU for like eight days, I think. And then she came home. So that was a bit like, oh, wow, that's, you know, you know, a second pregnancy and now you know, we are preterm here, but 90 months is is a bit challenging. I think any parent who has kids close in age knows that you probably will have to in diapers for a while. And then there's this sibling rivalry that really was an issue. And it's a lot. So I actually thought, oh, and at the time, my husband was really busy. Like he worked 60 hours a week. He traveled a lot. So I felt like I was a single mom. So after having to I thought there's no way You can have more kids, I can barely manage to what was I thinking, wanting to have all these kids, it's just no way. But as life went on, and the kids got to be a little bit older, and you know of the diaper phase and things like that, I did start secretly longing for another baby, there's just something in me that said, I don't want to be done, baby, there's something about having babies, and I don't know, I just didn't want to be done. And then actually, what happened was, I had, I had just regular you know, bloodwork done just a doctor's appointment to suit annual checkup, or whatever it was just like, hey, we haven't checked your blood. And while let's just see. And it turned out that my platelet count was really, really low. And so they sent me to a specialist. And the specialist said, this is this is not good. This is not a good situation, we got to figure out what's going on, because you could have an autoimmune disease disorder. It might be leukemia, it might be a mess. And I was just shocked. Because I mean, I did feel healthy, but you just never know what's going on, you just don't know. So I went back for several months to get checked and checked. And it turned out what probably happened was my birth control, which my naturopathic doctor said, like, why don't you stop taking birth control, because I had switched and sometimes that I guess, with some can be the cause of, you know, but the platelets start to stick anyway, not a doctor. So, but after several months, my blood started. So unlike normal levels again, and then I think it was like seven months. And my doctor said, Okay, I guess you're, you're healthy. It must have been that and, you know, you have a clean bill of health. And I remember sitting in my car after that appointment, and I just started crying like, oh my gosh, you know, like, this is like a miracle you because, you know, I had so much fear, like, what if I have a disease? What if I have something that's really life changing? Or, you know, potentially worse, so? And I remember it so well, that moment, because I think our youngest was about two or three, two years old. And I thought, Well, what do I want to do, you have a second chance of living healthy life. And I just remember, I know exactly what I want. And I want to I want to have more babies. And I want to stop living in fear. Because there are no guarantees in life. There really aren't, you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. So I figured I might as well go for my big dream and figure it out. And right at the time, I My husband was able to get the job in San Diego. And we ended up moving and everything became a lot more manageable and simple. And just a normal 40 hour workweek and a short commute. So that created space for us to have another baby and and then yeah, number girl number three came along and and then you know, I was ready like after yours ready paid. Let's do this. Let's have another one. Come on baby number four, right all in well. And then I think God or the Universe told me that so fast, not so fast. So I miscarried a couple of times, which was, which was really shocking to me that really, that really messed with me. Well woke me up actually, just to be the more I think the more grateful for how easy it was always for me to get pregnant. I would always get pregnant right away and the Healthy Kids and that's something you can never take for granted, you know. But I was going through a trying time of Wow. So I am feeling this really strong desire for a fourth child. That just felt so right to me like, No, we're gonna have four kids. This is what I wanted. This is what I'm gonna get. This is yeah, why wouldn't I Why wouldn't that happen to me or for me? And because of the two miscarriages and because I get pregnant And right away. I'm like, I need time I need to figure out, I need to get some answers. And I was already very spiritual. And what I do is I basically asked the universe guide me show me, what am I supposed to do? Give me some answers. And I knew I had to just give it some time and like, I'm not gonna, we're not going to try for a few months, several months, we're just going to wait and then try to think about it and just just give it maybe even half a year. And then we'll see if I get any signs if I changed my mind, I don't know. And then, pretty quickly after I decided actually, to just wait for a few months, I had this dream. I don't know if I should go to all these details. It's all in the book. But it basically was, I was at this convention. And there was this Native American Chief is very wise man that anybody had questions? He could answer like he was connected to God university could just channeled answers. And I was waiting patiently for my turn. And I kind of close my eyes kind of meditating is it was all in my dream. And, of course, I knew what I was going to ask like, are we meant to have a fourth child because I believe you can want something but I also believe it has to like, integrate with what maybe the universe wants for you. Or there's some mystery around that. Like, what is freewill? What is destiny? What are we meant to do here? So I just wasn't sure. Anyway, in my dream, when I finally it was my turn to ask this chief. I opened my eyes and it was kind of waiting. I had been it's gonna be kind of weird. The teeth was not there. But there was big poster that said, Yes, of course, you meant to have another child just don't wait. You need to try now. And I'm like, gosh, I woke up and I go, Oh, my gosh, it's here. This is it. And it's I don't know any any listener who who's worked with beans before and has had these guiding dreams, the energy that comes from these dreams. It's so different. You feel transformed, you wake up, and you know, this is different. This is not just oh, you're just processing your day today. Your worries, your anxieties. This is this is a lot more and you just know, this is it. I have to follow this. And yeah, sure enough, nine months later, we had our baby boy. It's like, I will live my life that way. If I if I'm stuck. I don't know. I throw my I know, there's an answer for me. And I throw it out there in the universe to God or whatever you want to call it. Just expect an answer to come and it always comes you got to learn to receive it. Yeah, that's it isn't about being open and allowing it to come and not questioning or not trying to second guess it's just what do you have to tell me and just waiting for it to come? Yeah, it does. If you Yeah, if you're open to it, you'll you'll get it? Yeah, I'm a big believer in that too. Yeah. So you hate we've got your four kids, you've got your dream. And how did things go from them? So I think moms who are listening can recognize that you know, the first couple of years the baby years toddler years, they're just intense It's physical. It's draining I mean, you don't sleep at night you're just chasing them they're starting to crawl I mean it's it's very demanding. And and then you think well, it's gonna get easier as they get a little older and it does it does get easier so that's what I thought you know, let's see had you know, first of all, after I had two kids that well it's gonna get easier it was very hard in the beginning with only 19 months apart, and then it got easier and then yeah, we added more kids so I thought okay, it's a lot I got a kid in elementary school and a preschool and then again, a toddler at home and a newborn but it's gonna get easier we're gonna get through this and many others have done this before me. And and and something Of course, they'll get easier. But there's also other things that got harder, you know, you're dealing with four kids with very different personalities, and every kid needs something else from you. And I think one of the frustrating parts is, you think you've figured something out with one kid, and you're like, Oh, this is great, it's working, this is working, my kid is actually doing what I needed to do, or everything is kind of flowing better, and you try to apply it to another kid forget, it's not going to work. Or two weeks later, a month later, the same system, same approach, it's just not working anymore. So you constantly have to, like reinvent yourself or something. And so, it, it was harder and or in different ways. And that feeling that I was looking for, and longing for, of like creating this, basically, this this house full of joy, these kids running around and being all happy and bringing me joy and liveliness, and you know, the whole purpose. It. Yeah, there were moments like that. Absolutely. You know, but not enough for me to say yes, now I have exactly what I wanted. Technically I did it looked like that on the outside, I have exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools, and something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time I would beat myself up stuffing so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy. Why are you not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. So that's when I went on my my journey of getting some answers of how I would make some changes in my life. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming four kids, you've outlined you know all the different stages. It's also demanding like weird. Did you actually fit in there? Did you feel like you were just that you existed only for your children? That was the only thing that you did was meet the needs of your children? Basically, yeah, I basically I was wanting to be moms. So now I know, the way I define being a good mom. And I'm connected to a lot of moms in especially in my neighborhood. And basically, I now know why I got so stuck and why I wasn't as fulfilled with my situations because I the way I defined what it means to be a good mom. And that's how we get stuck. That's how I got stuck. I will find being a good mom as someone who you got to give everything to your children and you just do everything, maybe not do everything for them. Because you know, they gotta learn to do things on their own. But, you know, you you create that family, you create the memories and you you know, you drop everything and you make sure to go to the birthday parties, and they go to try different sports and music and, and everything because you give give give because that's a bit mum. Because when you're a good mom, you make sure you you give them the right education and that they do really well in school. So you support all their education, their school, and if they need anything, you're right there talking to the teacher, whatever it takes to give this child and all these kids the best possible situation so that they can go to college and have a good career later on because then there'll be happy and then and I didn't realize that that's where it all came from until I had my spiritual awakening a few years ago. It was so because I thought if they did well and checked all the boxes, you know The boxes, graduating high school, going into college graduating, they're finding a good company to work for getting married, given me grandbabies, that will mean that I had done a good job as a mom. And when I had my spiritual awakening, I realized all the flaws in my thinking, because it's just not true. It's just not true. And it doesn't mean the opposite is true. Like, yeah, that. Because, yeah, we all influence our lives. Our kids, like they influence everybody that who we meet, who, whose lives we touch we do. But when I had my awakening, I saw that the picture is so much bigger than we experience in our day to day life, or at least that than what I had experienced in my day to day like, it's like, almost like I used to have tunnel vision. And then even the narrow vision I had of my life and life in general, was also tainted by this lens that was so colored by life experiences, by biases by judgments by your culture by a roll up. Yes. So when I had that, that awakening, which just basically happened in broad daylight in my kitchen, not being under the influence of anything, every reason? Why did you smoke? Me? And people can read about that in the compass. Mom, how that all went down? I won't go into details. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It shifted my perspective completely about everything that I believed was true, you know, waking up to all my false and limiting beliefs. Yeah, so when you had that, how did you then make the changes, I suppose like, it's, like you say, had this moment, and it's the sixth you've had this. I don't know what the word is epiphany, it's, you've realized how you can live your life in a different way to, to, to feel, you know, meet your needs, I guess, where you like practically, then like, how did you think, Oh, how am I actually going to do this? I suppose. That's a big question, I suppose. Yeah. Well, let me let me try to answer that. Because about a year before it had that awakening, I had already decided that I needed to make a change. I think my youngest my son was about three years old. And I already had recognized or acknowledged that. I'm not happy. Stop denying it. You need to make a change, because this is not going to get any better automatically. I have to, and I didn't know how I was going to make a change. But I realized what I was what I was craving was silence. I just needed solitude. Just silence. And not all that mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, you know, it isn't just constant. They always need as soon as they see you for a while. This has just always been fascinating to me. They're playing nicely in their room, the doors open. So you walk by often they realize, oh, we need more. I'm like, No, he didn't need me for like half an hour. You didn't need me. And I'm walking by. And it's awesome. They need you. They need you for whatever, they'll come up with something. They make it up on the spot. They just need mom. So anyway, I was really craving just solitude and I was craving reading books again. I was never a big reader. But I was always interested in spirituality and psychology. And I hadn't read a book in 10 years or so. Because if you have kids, you don't even want to I mean, I talked to a lot of moms who are going through that now. I mean, I I published my book a year ago, almost. And a lot of moms with young ones. They say, I have your book. I just I just can't get to it. I am like I hear you. I hear you. So I actually recorded the audiobook because moms can listen to audiobooks or podcasts while they're folding laundry or commuting to work or whatever. So yeah, that'll help solve that. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't read a book for like 10 years and then it was Breathing, oh, information and getting that inspiration again, about you know, so I started reading. And then what actually happened was, I was so intrigued by what I read. In these books, I started taking notes, I started journaling about all these amazing insights, it was like, it was like I had been asleep for 10 years. And also, there's a whole new world out there, that doesn't really have kids in it. And it's like, so amazing. And I was just inspired again. And so yeah, I that's how I started to come alive. Again, reading and journaling, and even doing a little bit of art, drawing a little bit of painting again, and just taking time for myself. There's a quote in the book where you say that you discovered parts of yourself that you had forgotten about. And that would have been just an incredible thing, like you say, you got back to painting and creating, did that sort of take you back to a time where you didn't have children? That? Yes, yes. And I think the biggest thing that has to do with creating art is its flow. You need and you need time to get into that flow. And it's when you have you have kids at home, forget it, every few minutes, you're going to be interrupted. And that's you just can't have that flow. So when when my youngest started going into peaceful kindergarten, I had just more time and of course, I was very realistic, I was very lucky that I was able to stay at home with my kids and that I didn't have to have a job outside of the home, a paying job outside of the home. So I could actually do that and take some time. To myself and just schedule it. I had to schedule it like schedule a block of a couple of hours a week to make sure would happen because it's still busy. You know, you're doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, just because the children aren't there. It doesn't mean everything's that long and keeps on coming somehow. Yeah. That's why it's actually funny when you say about laundry. That's like the Bane I think every mother's existence, it just doesn't stop. And one day I was complaining about it to my own mom, and she said, You know, one day you're gonna miss doing their laundry. And I was like, Okay, mom. All right. Like, I could see that that was saying, you know, you grow up and you move out and we miss it. So I thought, right, I don't take it for granted. Like you're saying before, don't take things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. It's okay. Yeah, I hear that too. From I remember people saying, well, one day you're gonna miss this man. Yeah, but I still am struggling right now. Exactly. You still got to do it deprived and still and I think it's okay. For moms who are hearing this are overwhelmed because I think all moms go through this stage, but they're just overwhelmed. And when somebody tells them one day, you're gonna miss it. So try to enjoy it and it's like, no, you're not listening to me. I'm overwhelmed. It's okay to feel overwhelmed and and don't feel guilty about it. It's it's part of the journey it's it's okay it's a lot raising kids is a lot especially in today's world it can be overwhelming Yeah. comes down to even like 20 years ago like very different worlds. Yeah, that's for sure. You briefly mentioned guilt there. I'd love to bring you to one of the topics that I chat to my mom's about on this show is mom guilt and I always put it in air quotes because I know it's it's contrived word that I feel like our our social media society has made this this special word hashtag mom guilt. Yeah. That you know that experience for you. How do you How can you sort of relate to that? That mum guilt. I have definitely had my my share of mom guilt a lot, actually. Especially when you have four different kids and some some kids just need more support than other kids and it's kids don't come with a manual for First of all, and when you really think about it, I think somebody wants told me that there are more parenting books than dieting books. And to me, that only tells you one thing, nobody has really figured it out yet either. Otherwise, there would be one book, and we'd all be reading it. And so nobody has figured it all out. We have to just keep learning as we go, you can read all the books you want before you have that baby, and you will never be prepared for what is to come. Once that baby is there, you never will be you. So you just do the best you can you figure it out. But in the meantime, we definitely go through things. I can't imagine any mom and sister in law, and like mom's figured it all out. But I think all moms go through guilt. You go to bed at night, and you're like, Why did I raise my voice? Why did I bite my tongue? Why did I say this? Why did I? Or should I should have done this or should have done that? I've done this. You're constantly doubting yourself, like wondering if you should have done this or that. And you just feel guilty? Like? Because you're not sure what to do? Because nobody? Well, nobody will tell you that's not really the right thing. Because we don't even well, sometimes we want people to tell us but on the other hand, one size does not fit all. It's a thing that I've been frustrated with before when you see titles of books. And it sounds like Oh 10 steps to raise and that begins or well adjusted kids. And for some foster kids who have well integrated brains, for example, the the like the sticker system or the reward system, you know, to get kids to maybe clean up their room and do their chores. For kids who have well integrated brains and rebalance, it works like a charm. It really does work well. But for kids who are not forget it, it's not that easy. And it's frustrating when when you have a child that is, you know, a little more complex. And I know there's a lot of moms out there who struggled with that, like, well, it doesn't work for my kid, or you need to have a lot more layers to that system of support, to have somewhat of an effect. But anyway, I kind of digress here, but back to mom guilt. So yeah, it's real because we feel we're not sure if we're doing the right thing. But when I had my awakening, instantly, it was gone, all the guilt was gone. All the guilt, it was gone, all the should haves could have they were gone, be saved did not matter at all. What mattered was what I realized, as I was showered with this incredible, unconditional love that washed away anything negative. Whether it was guilt. I mean, I felt forgiven, even though forgiveness wasn't even really needed, because we're not guilty. We we just it's not easy being a human being. It's that's just the reality that because we live in our mental world, and that's it gets very conflicted. There's a lot of conflict happening in our mental world. And then when he was in that state, the guilt was gone, because I knew, I knew with every fiber of my being that all I needed to do was the best I could and it was enough. We're here to learn to grow and to evolve as individual souls and also as a collective and, and bold influence. You know, we influence the collective and the collective influences. As it turns out, there's just no way around that. It's hand in hand. And he, yeah, I realized I had such a narrow perspective before that experience. And all of a sudden, my perspective was so big. And I realized we are not born a blank slate. You know, we carry the DNA of our ancestors. We are influenced by our culture, our families, our teachers, society. And then I also believe we we carry energies from possibly past lives. And that all of that merges into one, individual. And so now, as a parent, we are trying to guide children who come with, let's call it baggage. And some have some lighter baggage and others have navvy baggage. And we think we can fix it, we think we can, we're supposed to fix it, we think we're supposed to pull them up on that mountaintop. And it's like an uphill battle. Because we don't realize that we actually have very little control, we actually have, like, no control, we can control anybody else really not really. And the thing was, I was completely surrendering to whatever was happening. I was completely in the moment, the past was just not important at all, they would just the past was just stories that got me to where I was now. And anything that I've ever maybe felt bad about. It didn't matter, because their stories. And what mattered was now I experienced the pure moment of awareness, which is now which is really all we have, because the past is gone. And when you really think about it, the future hasn't happened, we really only have the present moment. And I live purely in the moment, I didn't worry any more about the future, because there is no use to be worrying about anything. Life just unfolds moment by moment. And I just surrendered. And I had this profound trust, that life just evolves, and unfolds mysteriously. And you don't have to understand at all, that was a big thing. You don't have to understand that though. Because you will never understand all of life, you will never understand this incredible masterpiece that we are part of the end, it was fine, I was fine with it. I just had this deep trust, that somehow life will unfold. And I will always continue to exist as a soul or whatever energy level. So I didn't have a worry in the world. And that lasted almost for a week. And it was just amazing. Oh, my problems are gone. It was it was yeah, the most incredible experience that I ever could have imagined. And to get back to the practice of wanting an answer. And throwing it out there into the universe. That Spiritual Awakening was an answer to my burning question. At the time, I had become very spiritual. And I was already was energized. I felt better about myself. But what happened was, I felt like a spiritual island in my family. I couldn't connect to my family because they were not all that spiritual. And I knew I couldn't just preach to them. Well, it's this is how it is. And because it was my truth, but it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate truth. But who knows, you know, nobody can prove anything. I can't prove God exists. And I can't prove God doesn't exist. You know, it's one of those things that you believe what you believe. And you know, what do you know? But I felt very kind of isolated. And one day I realized, I don't have to put up with that. There's got to be an answer. And so I threw it out in the US into the universe. And I I do this thing where I follow signs, you can read about it in the book. And one day I had this deeper awareness and I'm like, Okay, that's a sign I got to follow this lead. And it was leading me to a book and once I read this paragraph, it took me through this whole process, this mental process of kind of analyzing some things from my past. And also it got me into this awakening. And basically the answer to my question, how do I connect at a deeper levels, more spiritual, conscious level of my family? And it was unconditional love. It was complete acceptance of my family members. They're all flawed. We're all flawed. That that's the Oh only way we can learn and evolve. It's through our shortcomings to our flaws and the Nadeen flaws. They're just imperfections, because that comes with being a human being. And I loved my family unconditionally, I was showered with an unconditional love. And I can see, I was made whole. That was the whole thing was made whole, I felt complete. And I could see that everybody was holed. Also, I could see it in my family members, anybody who I would run into in the supermarket, like it's, it's a weird, I can't even describe it. But I knew and I could see David Hall, complete already at that soul level. But the problem is, we live in our mental world, where there's all this inner conflict and these judgments and these limiting beliefs of how we think we should live life the best way and all that. But it's so flawed in prisons as really, but it's part of the whole human journey. But that Awakening was an answer to this burning question. So you do get answers, you just need to be really eager to get the answer. So then, how did your relationships with your family change? They would have been able to notice the way that you know, Mum was now things are a bit different did that? How did that sort of go? i To be honest, I hardly even really talked about it. During those days, I talked a little bit to my husband about it bit by bit because I it was such a kind of shocking experience that like, well, not even shocking, it was actually something that I recognized like, I remembered the state of being I had just forgotten about and like, how did I forget that this is another way of being but anyway, I couldn't find the words to describe what had happened to me, it took me a long time to figure out how to talk about it, and how to write about it. But basically, what happened was, I approached my kids differently I saw because I saw motherhood through completely new lens. And the lens was our children are born with their own purpose. They have to find their own purpose, and they have their own inner compass. to guide them, I realized I have my own inner compass, it's our intuition. It's listening to that own your inner voice that will guide you to life because your soul knows what you love what you're fascinated with what and that leads you to your purpose, just follow the path of inspiration, and you will find your purpose in purposeful life. And our kids have the same and has nothing to do with us really. It's not the way I defined motherhood being a good mom was like I said, you have to check the boxes to make sure they get a good education and you just invest in your family, you give, give give. But what I had learned was we all are responsible for our own happiness, we have to find our own purpose too. And raising kids is part of our purpose. That often there's more, there's more, and I knew there was more for me. And it's our own inner compass that will guide us there. And I realized our kids have their own inner compass, even though we still have to guide them in life when they're young. They know what they want in this lifetime. It's it often gets covered up that they know what they're passionate about. If the opening is there, if you if you let them and it might not look like high school, college, whatever. Yeah. Every kid has to follow their own path. And what we have to let go of is feeling like if a kid doesn't follow that path, that we were not good parents. It is the biggest BS in the world. Our kids are meant to follow their own path. And it might look completely different than what you had in mind because what you had in mind is likely has to do with what you want for for them because then you can feel good about yourself that you did a good job. Yeah, all we really have to do is our very best and they will find their path in life. But it's important that we as parents also create our own fulfilling life if we don't feel fulfilled, if you feel completely fulfilled with raising your parents, fantastic. But if you feel something is missing, I highly encourage anyone figure out what it is and add it to your life. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I love that. So they would all be at the age where they would be aware that, you know, mums written a book mums put a book out mums or you know, published author. Yeah, how do they feel about that? They, it's kind of curious. They, they like it, they kind of accept it, or actually, for a while, because it took me six years to write it. Basically, I had, I had the funny thing is I had already started writing my book before I had this awakening, because I had done so much work, where I love myself to simply pursue what excited me. And I started thinking about, Gosh, I want to write a book, I want to integrate all these wonderful ideas about spirituality and psychology that I get from all these different books, and integrate it into my own book, and then write about my own experiences and insights and whatever. So then after you know, my ego, shut it down many times, like you're not going to write a book, forget about it, who do you think you are, you're going to be a failure, you'll never succeed. You know, one morning, I had a deeper awareness, and I knew you are going to write this book, this is what you're supposed to do. So we started slowly figuring out what I wanted to write about. And then a year later, I had the spiritual awakening. And for a while I thought there is no way I'm going to write about this, forget about it, there is no way I'm going to stick to what I wanted to write about in my book, and forget about it. This is impossible. People will think I'm crazy if I write about this stuff. And lo and behold, of course, I started realizing no, you need to find the courage to, to write about it. So the whole process basically was six years, so much of my youngest kids life is like mom is writing a book mom is writing. They were waiting and waiting. And finally the book is published and this and that. And it's kind of interesting, because we have a lot of families in our neighborhood. And then just the other day, my 13 year old, came home and she said yeah, a friend of mine. She said, Yeah, her mom had to read your book. And she really liked it and like, Oh, that's great. You know, like, it's kind of weird. It's like in our community and and yeah, so yeah, they like they just now think it's normal that Mom Mom wrote a book and doing a podcast and now she's got an audio book coming out and she's getting into life coaching which is really my passion. So yeah, it's interesting definitely. Is it important for you personally, for them to see that you're not just a mum, you're not just you don't just exist exist for them. You're capable your own passions and, you know, achievements. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And what I what I realized during that awakening, and that's what I how I approach my kids now, like, you really have to sense what are you interested in? And listen to that. No. Yeah, we have a responsibility for ourselves and our kids one day when you know, they're adults, too. You do need to find actually take care of yourself. So, you know, if something is a hobby, and you know, it's not gonna make money, it might have to stay a hobby for a while you figure out how to, you know, pay the bills. And then over time, maybe you can see how you can make a living, you know. But it's very important to, to listen to that voice. And also, if you haven't figured it out yet, which is very common for 1618 year olds, like I want to do, you just trust you keep moving forward and trust, you will figure it out, you will keep trusting, just keep moving forward and just relax, you'll be fine. You'll figure it out. It's very important. Yeah, that that kids see that mom is not just mom, especially, I think, with having three daughters. If they ever want to have their own children, I think it's important that they will allow themselves also to not just be mom. And to figure out they're more than just mom. They're whatever they want to be however they want to feel that in. And it doesn't mean it takes away from being the best mom, you want to be. I think it adds I think it makes you even well, it makes you happier mom, you might not spend as much time like I spent time away from my kids, but they're older now. So it is easier, they're very independent. But I don't feel bad about it. Because I know it's good for them to spend time on their own figuring things out on their own. And I still spent plenty of time with them. And unhappier mom for it, and more fulfilled, and therefore also renewing more fulfilled as a parent, you actually give your kids a little more space to figure it out also, on their own. And I think it also shows that, you know, we're all responsible for our unhappiness, nobody can make you happy, you can't make your kids happy. You can make a happy for a day doing something fun. But do happiness, it really does come from within itself, fulfillment and purpose and meaning and only we ourselves can configure that out. Yeah, that is so true, isn't it? When you said before about kids not knowing what they want to do. I feel like over here anyway. The kids like my son, my oldest is 14. And they're already, you know, trying to decide the pathways for their, you know, their education for the job they want to do. And it's like, how can you possibly know at that age, what you want to do for the rest of your life, that is just an unreasonable thing to put on anyone. And I say to my son, you know, I've found my dream job when I was 35. You know, there's never, you're never gonna run out of time, you know, you're gonna go through experience in life, and maybe the thing you think you want to do, you start doing it and go, actually, this is not what I thought change to something else. So that, you know, there's there's no pressure to decide right this second. And that's something I'd love to see sort of change in schooling. I really think we need to have a cultural shift, Big time, big time and education, I see some of the shifts happening already. Because there's so many parents who say, we need to bring back the trades. You know, we're like, for so long, we have been preparing all these kids for higher education. But not all kids want to do higher education, they want to work with their hands, they don't, they don't want to dive into all these, these books and read and they're not all kids are meant to do that. And we have to change as a society really, and and put the same value on on a trades education and a four year college degree. Really, that's what's got to shift. And we also tell our kids that just keep moving forward, make the best decision at that moment. And just know that allow yourself to change your mind if there's a gift you can give yourself is to allow yourself to change course. If you get stuck like well, I want to be let's say I want to be a doctor and from a young age on and then you get older and you realize the reality of it is not really what do you want to do but now you've kind of painted yourself in a corner like I have told everybody for years, I want to be a doctor and then it becomes so hard to acknowledge you want to do something else because now you have to do maybe with family that's like but he was wanting to be a doctor. No, you want to be something else. So we tell our kids always be open minded and allow yourself to change course if you really feel this is not the right direction anymore. You know, and I do think it's just need more time. And they need to have more fun too. And more hands on classes. Yeah, they gotta bring the trades back into the classroom. You know, it's sorry that I'm seeing that shift a bit, but it needs to happen more. That's the thing. Like, you're always going to need someone to fix your roof or, you know, carpentry, you're always going to need people to create with the hands, you know, someone's got the toilet or Yeah, so yeah, that is a great saying some one of the ladies I had on my podcast said, we can't all be astronauts, we have to have a balance in life. Yeah, it's bad knowledge, and I've always found it fascinating. You say you're talking about how it's a different time for the kids. But then the parents like it's really hard to parent children at the moment. Because most of us depending on our age, we didn't have social media, when we were growing up. So it's like, how do you navigate that when you've had absolutely no experience of what it's like to be a teenager? And have that whole new world that you're dealing with? So I think that's something that's, it's really challenging for a lot of parents at the moment. And yeah, I'm so glad I didn't grow up with thank God. It's just a whole, just a whole extra thing you'd have to be worried about all the time. Like life was so simple. When I think back to my childhood and my teenage years. Absolutely, yeah, I think it's, it's a very challenging time for parents to be raising kids. Life, just even just just for adults, life has become so full and fast, are nervous, as soon as actually not wired to process so much information from the 24 hour news cycle, to social media, to all the emails. I always think our parents didn't get all those emails from the schools, you know, from teachers, from the principal, from, you know, the PTA and the fundraisers, and everything that comes our way, we have to process and it is so much more intense. And that's just for the parent. And now we have to manage our children and social media, and doing homework on their computers that we can't watch every second that they're on a computer, like how do we guide I will keep them safe. It's stressful. It's a lot. And we're the first generation of parents that has to figure this out. Our kids were guinea pigs. Yeah, really? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's still developing exponentially. All the apps and all the ways that they can figure out how to get online and we won't even know about it. Yeah. And so it's, yeah, some, I don't know, ever thought that social media was a good idea for for middle schoolers. I don't know, but that it's not. Talking about your coaching that you do now, do you want to just share a little bit about that with this, if you know anyone's listening that thinks that this is something that they'd you know, benefit from? Can you share a little bit about what you do? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thanks. There's just so many moms who kind of feel stuck and it often has to do with that guilt again, they they feel guilty for not being happy because their lives are good this and that. They feel guilty if they even think about taking some time to themselves, or or pursuing something. And what I do is making people aware of all their beliefs that are tied to what it means to be a mom and kind of waking up to how they're thinking and sometimes it has to do with the culture they grew up in. Like, I remember one mom who I think Her background was Vietnamese. And she said, In my culture, the family comes first always you always give to the family, the family is the center, you give, give, give. So it, it just was conflicting with her wanting to have time to herself to pursue something. She didn't even know what it was. But she said, like, I gotta make a change, because I just, I'm just so stressed and whatever, I'm just not not happy. And I know there's she had a few ideas of what she wanted to do, but she just struggled with the guilt. And once we started talking about a different perspective, like, well, how are you now when your kids need you? When your husband needs you? Are you just happy to, you know, be there for them? Or are you like, oh, my gosh, what do they need? Now? What is it now? You know, it's like, the last I'm always like, Oh, my gosh, I never have time to myself. So I told her, Well, what if we reframe it, and you set aside some time for yourself, and then be inspired and enjoy, really be in it and enjoy what you do, guess what's gonna happen. Then when you're present with your family, you're much more present. And then you don't feel so drained. Because you know, every week, you've got this time for yourself. And it's coming every week, and you do what you love. And you keep pursuing different things that maybe it'll shift over time. And then you can just be there for your family even more and more present and more positive. And once you started seeing that, she's like, Oh, no, I get it. Okay. Okay, that's compatible, okay. I can still, like, honor my culture, and honor what I need, you know, so it's always about finding the right perspective. That is healing, because we're often just not seeing it. Right. You know, because we have ideas and beliefs and limits, limiting thoughts. It's about uncovering those. And I, yeah, that's definitely passionate mind to help moms find the right perspective, and then help them pursue what they want to pursue. Yeah, that's wonderful. Good for you. That is just Yeah, it's really wonderful that you can pass that gift on for the, you know, that amazing experience that you've had, and then you can, you know, help so many other moms and, and then that helps, you know, it goes down the line. Like you said, before, we're all connected. Yeah, no, it's further, because I had to change my perspective. I felt guilty taking time. So I know what these moms are going through. So I know, and I know how hard it is to change your perspective. And to break these patterns. I know how hard it is. But I also know the rewards are incredible, not just for yourself, but for your whole family, your whole family will benefit once you become happier. everybody around you is going to feel it. And also another thing when mom is happy, kids feel it. And now, they don't have to feel any responsibility to like, make mom happy. Some kids are sensitive that way. Yeah, they feel kind of responsible. And they don't have to worry about mom anymore, too. I've heard about that, too. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's always it's all good. You know, life might shift. Things might change. But it's always the fear of the change that holds us in place, but gradually integrate the changes. It can be so powerful. Absolutely. It's just it's finding that balance, isn't it? Like your your example of your client? You know, she's honoring what's important to her culturally, but then she's also honoring herself, which is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And getting that balance, right. And that'll be different for every single person. Exactly. That's the whole journey. But I do believe there's always a way in which we can gently integrate some changes. You don't have to make massive changes right away. You know, for some people, that's why they do or they quit their job and this and that, but most people can't do that. So I've done the way I've made it changes was gently integrating all the little changes over time and then, you know, you look back and it's it's a big shift, ultimately. Yeah, that's it. All these little, little tiny things add up to this massive, massive effect over time. Yeah. And then that makes it less daunting. Like you talk fear. Fear certainly holds us back, you know that. Oh, no, what if this doesn't happen or if this doesn't work, or you know, the what ifs that like you were talking before about, you know, we jump forward, we think about the future. But, you know, the only time we really have is, is the present. And there's, there's really no point in jumping forward. And we really only have now and, and what I also realized is, even though we want to make changes on the outside, like, we want to do something, do a hobby or start something, whatever it is, the shift always has to happen mentally, we have to shift our thinking. And sometimes it's a tiny little shift with our thinking. And you know, but then it starts to show on the outside and just a tiny little mental shift is huge, energetically you feel it, and then the world around, you starts to respond differently. It's a fascinating process, I've experienced it, all of a sudden, you need different people, you find yourself in different situations that actually support what you want to do. And it just opens everything up with just tiny little changes that you're making, basically, mentally, it's the mental shifts that you create, and then it starts showing up in your outfit and out for you know, in your world. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. Danielle, it's been so lovely to talk to you this. Wonderful, thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'll put the links for people to get in touch with you in the show notes. But do you have a website or somewhere you'd like to direct people to head to if they'd like to know more? Yes, the easiest one is inner compass. living.com. So inner compass living.com. And they can also reach me at inner compass. living@gmail.com . And if people want to know when my audiobook is coming out, it should be late April, early May. They can sign up for my newsletter that's on the website, and then they'll get my newsletters and a blog and whatever, they'll they'll be in the loop on the latest. So inner compass living.com Fantastic. Oh, wonderful. Look, good luck with it all. And I'm Yeah, excited to, to check out the audio book to because I mean, obviously I've read it on the page. But I think when you hear the person that wrote it, reading, it just adds a completely different dimension to it, you know? So yeah, I'll be excited to check that out, too. Yeah,

Carmen Bliss Australian holistic counceller S1 Ep17 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts **Please be aware this episode contains discussion about stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and procedures in the aftermath** My guest today is Carmen Bliss, holistic counsellor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counsellor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt - that we discuss in each episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business, Inspired Wellbeing Co. providing support for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion about self worth, identity, setting boundaries and the ego, where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experience with parenting, loss and finding your true calling in life. Connect with Carmen here - Connect with the podcast here - Music used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest today is Carmen bliss, holistic counselor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counselor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt that we discuss in every episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business inspired wellbeing co providing services for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experiences with parenting loss and finding your own true calling in life. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and the procedures in the aftermath. Today, I'm really excited to welcome a very special guest, a guest with a little bit of a difference. Welcome Carmen bliss, who's from inspired wellbeing code, you met Gambia thank you for coming on, Carmen, it's so lovely to have you. Thank you. It's, um, pleasure to be here. So I sort of thought I approached you because I've probably recorded 20 or so of these now, these chats with these artistic moms. And I have some particular topics that I love talking about. And they're the responses, I get a very different but quite similar in a lot of ways, but slightly different. And I thought, so I thought it was about time I spoke to someone who's got some expertise in this area, he could perhaps help shed a little bit of light on what's going on for moms when they're experiencing these things. Maybe some sort of ways we can look at it differently. To help us through before we delve into all of that nitty gritty stuff. Let's chat about you for a little while Carmen. So tell us a little bit about yourself and, and the business that you run and how you got into all that sort of stuff. Well, I probably fell into this profession, it was not a planned profession, my personality type, which you'll learn, I love all that sort of stuff. So as we go along our discussion, you'll pick up on bits and pieces that I'm really passionate about, including understanding personality types and stuff. My personality type is quite I don't want to use the word rigid, but it but it is like it's quite structured. I like structure I you know, like numbers, data, all that sort of stuff, which people who know me probably think, oh, I don't think so. But that that is the the crux of my personality. So I was never going to be a counselor. So even when I was working as a student counselor, I said I'm never training in counseling ever. It's not my thing. I don't like it, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then here I am, with my own piece was in counseling. Go figure. Um, so yeah, so I sort of got into the business because of a few personal situations that kind of changed my view on the world. Like it was like a not like a wake up moment or I suppose it was a wake up moment, but like a daunting period. And then if that's the right word, but you kind of know what I mean. And what you think okay, life's not as black and white as I've made it out to be for the last 36 years or 35 years or whatever, it was 32 years you know, I was very black and white before before that point. So yeah, here I am doing counseling which I never thought I would be doing. Yeah, so family I've got a lovely husband who we've been together nearly 20 years I think next year, which is seems like a long time. I'm still learning things about him every day. Which is probably a good thing because it keeps me interested. I've got two children. And Harrison he just turned 13 on the weekend. Lucky he's a pretty quiet child. So we haven't really hit that crazy teenage stage yet. I mean, there are, you know, the smelly bedroom and not showering and the greasy pair of the pimples and stuff. But yeah, nothing outrageous, which I'm thankful for. And then I've got my daughter Anna, who's just turned seven in August. And yeah, God help us when she turns 13. Because it's a completely different story. I've been managing her behavior since she was two. So just yeah, she she, her here as a teenager, I'm just pretty apprehensive about that. We'll deal with it when it comes. And then. So my family journey hasn't been like an easy one, obviously. So we had Harrison, he was not planned. So I was only 25 not really thinking about kids, you know? And then Oh, hello, I'm pregnant. But we owned our own house. And you know, we're in a really good position. We have jobs, and you know, everything like that. So yeah, wouldn't change it for the world. Absolutely. So then, when Harry was about three, we started trying for another baby, and had three miscarriages sort of in a row. Didn't really get to the point of testing, like, what, why there was a few things like to think it's progesterone levels, and just little things like that. But then fell pregnant with Anna after that, and she was just like, a normal, healthy kind of pregnancy. So it was, yeah, it was a bit weird. And then we lost a baby through stillbirth when Anna was two, so that that kind of put us you know, you know, the whole family situation number one, like that was unplanned. So you know, you have those freak outs, like, Oh, my God, like, Baby number three, what the hell are we gonna do? You know, I love my job, I don't think I want to take maternity leave, you know, all that sort of stuff. At the time, I was earning more than Brad. So you know, tossing up? Does he be the stay at home dad, and all of that sort of stuff. So you kind of go into this whirlwind, and I went into denial. So I think because it rocked our world so much. And because Anna was still only like one and a half to when we fell pregnant. But yeah, with the third baby. And so went into kind of like, I don't think I want this baby. Like, you know, there was all that, like self talk. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle three kids, you know, and as Harry was this perfect textbook, baby, you know, that slept through the night and his cot from day one. You know, he was just like this perfect baby. And then Anna came, and it was like, holy shit. Why don't we? why don't why did we choose to go back? No, she's got the biggest heart. But the biggest personality? So. Yeah, so she's totally and I'm trying to manage a two year old and then yeah, we bang. We're pregnant again. So yeah, I felt in those early stages, I felt like I didn't want to be pregnant, I, you know, was in a lot of denial and stuff. And then when we went to our ultrasound and at 20 weeks and found out that we lost the baby, then all the guilt started. Because you know, you think you think was that? Like, did I do this by wishing it away? Did I do this by thinking that I don't want this baby, you know, all that sort of stuff sort of starts to creep in. But luckily, I've got a really, really good support network around me. But it wasn't easy. I don't think anyone tells you about these things. So like I had to give birth. So so it's like no one tells you that. You know, do you get what I mean? Like now you think but you know, people say oh, you know, we've had a stillbirth, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But they don't actually say, Oh, you have to give birth. You know, like the follow up stuff. Yeah, so I was completely shocked by that. Because I was like, oh, like, I don't know whether I can do that. I don't know whether I can, like, you know, go into a labor room and give birth to a baby that's not alive. You know, like that. That was a really big fear. And I think that's the point where I really broke down. Like when the doctor told me that I had to give birth like I was kind of not in shock. But yeah, in I don't know. Yeah, it would be shocked, I suppose. And I hadn't showed any full on emotion yet. Obviously, it's a whirlwind. But when the doctor said, and I was so lucky, I had an amazing doctor. And it was, you know, when people were there, the right people at the right time. She was One of those people because she was literally only my doctor for six months. And it was that period where I got pregnant, and then lost the baby. And she was there through the whole thing. And then she was gone. She just left town. So it's like, so weird. She was she was obviously there for the right time, you know, the right time for me. So she was amazing. And she was really comforting and talked to me through the whole thing. And yeah, and the midwives at the hospital were also really, really amazing. So I feel like I had, like, the support that I that I needed, like, throughout that whole journey, even though it's you know, it's horrible. It's I'm probably speaking about it. Maybe some people think candidly, but I've processed a lot of that stuff. You know, I've worked very hard over the last five years to, to process, all of that. So, you know, and had intense counseling myself, and to sort of work through all of that. And but yeah, the midwives were amazing. And I just remember this, this one, there was two main midwives and there was one whose name was Gloria. Oh, yeah. You know, her. I know, Gloria. Yeah. How amazing is she? Yeah, she, she, I think she's still working up there. Like she's been. But yeah, I think she just recently retired, oh, God, cuz she was there. When we had ally eggs. She's like, like, I've got seven years between my two. So she was there when I had Alex 13 years ago, nearly 14 years ago. And then she was still there. When I had Digby, and we were just like, Oh, my God. And actually, I'm digressing now. But she was the first person I told about my, when I was up there, my postnatal depression was coming back. And so I just trusted her so much. She was just like the most like, she'd just come in. And she'd just sit down and have a chat. And my husband thought she was awesome. Like, she was just here. So like, Gloria was there for the first half of the labor. And she was just like, this guardian angel, I suppose, you know, that had been sent to nurture me in that time. And, you know, she she was telling me about how, you know, how many of the births that are not live for her, you know, in her whole career standard? Yeah. So she, she told me about, you know, all the pregnancies and births and everything that she had come across in her career and what her life was like, and, yeah, that she didn't have any children of her own. I think she was, like, am I right in saying Not, not a nun, but something similar to that, like a sister or something? Yes, she was. She was a sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she she served, you know, in that way, sort of got in that way? I suppose. So yeah. And then there was another lady Fiona, who, who actually was there when I when I birth Lucy. And she was amazing as well, like, she was just so amazing. But no one tells you about all this stuff. And you know, that I think that's the hardest thing that I found is, you know, no one tells you those steps. And I don't know, maybe it's better to be naive. Yeah, I don't know. And I think the hardest part of that, because when you're in labor, like they drug you up. Yeah. Like you can say no, obviously. But yeah, that emotional and you know, you just want to be a bit numb. Which was probably, I don't know, I don't think I would have changed that. Because you just want you don't want any pain, you know, it's not like you're going to be rewarded at the end, you know, you just want to be numbed out for a little bit. But probably the hardest part of that, of that whole process was like walking out with without a baby. So like that, like you're in the maternity ward with with everybody else, and you have to exit that maternity ward with no baby. So that was probably, I felt like I was like the walker shame almost like people were looking, you know, I don't know, it was just a really weird experience. And quite confronting, like, that was pretty, you know, because, you know, you imagine, you know, and because I've had two children, you know, I have experienced this before, you know, that feeling when you're taking your baby home, and you're like, you know, it's just such a big moment of putting the baby in the capsule and getting it in the car. And, you know, all of that. So yeah, it was like the complete opposite of that. So yeah, it was really weird. And Gloria sent me and it's like, blew me away. She sent me a postcard Exactly a year later, on the exact date that I gave birth, saying, like, how she was still thinking about me and that she was in some conferences and midwifery conference and yeah, she was thinking about the date and yeah, like I bawled my eyes out. When I received that in the post because I was like, oh, How does she have time to even remember these dates? And she said like it was on the date. So yeah, I keep that because Oh, yeah, I made you cry now. Oh my Well, sharing that yeah honestly. Bla bla bla so I lean I, it's not that. And I know people talk about grief differently. And I know that it's very different for every individual. You know, I've worked with grief in my counseling work, you know, I understand that people handle grief and loss differently. But I had a period of denial, not denial of what had happened. Denial of my feelings. You know, like, I just shut them all the way. I didn't want to process them. Yeah, so that was for about a year. Then, then it came like that, then all of the emotions came and I had to get counseling and stuff because I ended up with post traumatic stress disorder, because I had quite an invasive operation afterwards. Which looking back now I if I could preach one thing to to young women, or young mums even is make informed decisions about your, about your own body. So I was tucked into a procedure and ablation of the uterus when I didn't actually need it. And it was one of the most invasive procedures that I've had, because it was really like, extremely painful. And now I don't, and I can't have children anymore because of it. And it was quite soon after that stillbirth. So the gynecologist who I won't name shouldn't not like they shouldn't be making people who've just gone through that make those decisions. Yeah. It's not an informed decision. How can you make a decision like that when you're not in the right frame of mind? And the same as Brad, so he was booked in for a vasectomy? Already. Like before, we found out that we were pregnant with Lucy. And so then all of this happened, and it was about three months later. And he was still booked in for this discectomy. And, you know, like, we kind of discussed it and everything but looking back like you don't i don't know you can't you're not in the right frame of mind to December the never gonna have children again. I mean, I didn't find pregnancy easy. So I'm not sure that I would have gotten back for another pregnancy anyway. But it's nice to have the option, isn't it? Yeah, that's thing, isn't it? Yeah. That's that's quite appalling. Isn't it to fronted with that? It's such a when you're so vulnerable, and obviously not having the time to, like you said, to find out what you need to find out and the ramifications of this. Yeah, that's That's appalling. Yeah, so yeah, you're working through that as well. As Yeah, so yeah, yeah. So that's a grief and loss in itself. Because, you know, as a woman, we have periods, and then there was no longer so that's a that's a grief and loss in itself. And yes, it's fantastic. Not bleeding every month. But also, I feel like something's missing. Some months, you know, like, that's a process that we get used to it. It's a womanly thing. Yeah, it's spiritual and all the rest of it. So yeah, I ended up with PTSD, because that operation didn't go as planned. And a few few hiccups went wrong when I was going under, and yeah, so then I was presented with, you know, having these panic attacks, you know, multiple times a day and just felt completely out of control for probably three, three to four, three years, probably three, three solid years. Oh, wow. I didn't Yeah, I didn't want to go on medication or anything, because medication has its place. Absolutely. Like I am not anti medication, but for me and my body and knew that it wouldn't be the right choice. So and only because I'm so sensitive to all of that sort of stuff. Like I know that my body would have probably reacted, you know, unpleasant way rather than helping the situation. So yeah, I just got intensive intensive counseling and yeah, worked through it that way. And I mean, I still have anxiety a little bit and still moments. have panic every now and again. But it's pretty much under control at the moment. Yes, my family laughs and Poor Anna, she was too when all this happens. So I feel like we're having a lot of issues with her at the moment. And I feel like some of it has contributed to my probably lack of emotional availability around that time. All right, well, I'm gonna take you back right back to the start. You refer to yourself as a holistic counselor, can you share what that holistic element means? And how that changes? How you approach your work? Yeah, sure, um, I like the word holistic, because I don't believe counseling is just of the mind to holistic when when you talk about counseling is mind body spirit. So not only are we looking at what's going on in the mind, but the mind doesn't operate separately from the body, and separately from spirit, or energy, and genetics. So holistic integrates everything. So, you know, not only are we looking at what thought patterns and, you know, are detrimental to your mental health? Well, no, I don't even like the I know that the word mental health is, is recognized. And I don't know what else I would call it. But it's not just mental health. It's like Holistic Health, because every little bit contributes to the mental health. So when I practice, I look at the people's lifestyle, like are they sleeping? Because sleep has an a massive detrimental impact on mental health? Are they really low in vitamin D? I mean, I can't test that I'm not a medical doctor. But I will always suggest that they go and have a look at their blood work. Because if they're hugely low on vitamin D, or hugely, you know, they're not taking magnesium or just a really simple stuff, then that affects your mental health. You know, are they having bodily symptoms that they think are normal, but actually contributed to their mental health? Like their nervous systems on regulated? And then the energetics of it, you know, are you in a environment where there's yelling and screaming every day or, you know, that plays a part in your spirit and your energetics, which then plays a part on your mental health? You know, so that's kind of the holistic thing that we look at. It certainly is all it all. Everything affects everything else, doesn't it? It's not. Like I think the Western doctors way of treating the what do they do they treat the symptoms instead of treating the cause? It's like, they just look at one thing in isolation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's probably what spurred me on to, to look at the holistic stuff is, you know, I had like, some really significant sort of adrenal issues, that the Western doctors ah, made me feel horrible. You know, they they made me feel like I was making it up. Yeah, because they didn't have they didn't have an answer for it. So it must have been. Yeah, it must just be all in your head. You know, it takes me back to the description, when psychology was first around of hysteria. You know, like so, you know, women who are young mothers would be diagnosed with hysteria, which means, these days that they're not coping, you know, they might have postnatal depression, or they might have really bad anxiety. But back then, it was just labeled hysteria, and I feel like that has, you know, in the western Doctor world, they don't use the word hysteria, but basically, I was told that I was tired, or bored housewife. And I was working for 40 work. So yeah, that's what made me so passionate about holistic. Hmm. You'd never say that someone in a medical setting these days? No, and I think because psychology was so new. You know, like, it's such an emerging field and the I'm sorry if I bore you with the details of the history and stuff. Like that sort of stuff. but back then they didn't believe that the brain like they didn't know about neuroplasticity. So if someone was in that state, you know, quote unquote hysteria, or you know, soccer or whatever, they didn't understand that that could be changed. They just labeled that person and put them incident in, in an institution. And they never got the chance to actually heal. Yeah, so all these people who were labeled, you know, hysterical or psycho or, you know, needed to be institutionalized. And they didn't believe that the brain could change. So that's where the research is now that the brain can change. And we can mold, mold, neural pathways to be in a better shape than what they were, you know, when we were suffering from mental health or experiencing anxiety or depression or whatever. Yes, you've definitely come a very long way, very, very long. So the there's two, two topics that I love to talk about. And so they are the mum guilt, which I like to put in inverted commas because and the second one is identity. So the way that when a woman becomes a mother, how they see themselves changes. So well, let's let's do the mum guilt first. So, do you have any idea? I'm really intrigued by this? And I'll ask you this question. And you might not know and that's fine. But where did this term come from? Like, how was it created? Is it been like a social media hashtag like? Or is it like people who have to label things we have to call something we have to have a term for everything? What What's your take on that? I think it's, and I don't know, I only know I'm not an expert, or I don't know, like, this is only my opinion. One person. I feel like it's a product of social media, the media. Because when, like when I had my son, I was 25. Like social media had only just started because don't forget, I'm old. I'm, and I wasn't on social media. I didn't look at websites. I just parented from my heart, with my mom's advice, kind of like the traditional way that people would parent without all of this outside influence. And the only time I experienced mum guilt was when I put my son in childcare. And he didn't, he didn't gel with the carer for the first probably three months. But I don't, I can, I felt guilty I did, I felt guilty for dropping him off there. Because he wasn't settled. You know. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure, and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around then you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say, I'm not a I'm not a person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I'm not that person. I work I thrive off work. I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a mum is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. And I did feel guilty for for because my child was quite upset in those first three months. But you know what, once we found the right fit, once we found the right person to care for him in that childcare setting. He absolutely loved it and he thrived. So I didn't have that. That my mum guilt. So I feel like mum guilt is a product of everybody else's judgment of what society should or shouldn't do or be. And then we take that on that we take that those feelings on from externally internally And then they manifest. And I don't think that's right. Oh, yeah, I don't think it's as a man, like, you're going to be very different to me, you know, do you get what I mean? Like, we can't see a social media stereotype of a mum and say, we all have to fit in that round peg, when we're triangles square diamond. That makes sense. And I can sort of sense perhaps the connection, then you talked at the beginning briefly about the personality types. So it's like, everyone will experience things different because of the way just the way they are. Don't get me started about the patriarchal stuff that goes, get started on it. Because I would call myself like a feminist because I hate patriarchal systems, I, it actually makes me feel physically sick to my core. And I don't know whether that's, you know, from my past life, so, you know, whatever happened there, or because I've always had great men figures in my life, my husband is like, absolutely amazing. Like, honestly, like, we share hubs in everything, like, he comes in, and he does the dishes, or I'll go outside and weed the garden or, like he is, yeah, really, really amazing. I'm so blessed to have someone like that. So it's not because I haven't had these, you know, beautiful men, male figures in my life. It's just the systems. And what a mum, the word Mum, I suppose the peaks is, you stay at home, you look after the kids. And that's it. You do all the stuff around the house, you do all the washing. And I feel like that. That's society's mo of what a mother should do look like, etc. We shouldn't be going to the gym because mums shouldn't be doing that we shouldn't be spending money on ourselves because, you know, earning any money. You know, like, all of that is bullshit. Like, I really despise that patriarchal kind of thing. And that is sometimes where I think this mom guilt comes from, like it's generational trauma of having this patriarchal system. That is outdated. And really sexist. Hmm. Yep. So that's the other part of it. Yeah. So it's almost like, because women men the way that they mother is changing. They've got to be reined back in. So they've got to be made to feel guilty to pull them back to this the traditional way that they're supposed to supposed to be mothering. I've used a lot of lately. Yeah, absolutely. And why aren't we, you know, why aren't big organizations, including family daycare as part of their well being program at work? So mothers can return to work when they want to? You know, why do we have waiting lists of hundreds of children at childcare? Like, why aren't we doing something about that? You know, so women can actually get back into the workforce, and do what they love? Or, you know, you get what I mean? It's a big problem. Oh, yeah. So I guess then people experience it differently then, because of how they were parented, what their role model then was from their mother, maybe they feel guilt because they're doing something different to their mother, or what do you think about the way that perhaps the other women and other mothers? What's their role in driving this as well? Because I feel like, I know, we're getting better at it. But I feel like there's a lot of judgment, from mums to other mums and women that don't have children, they're judging mothers. We've got a lot of work to do there, too. I feel Do you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it really stems back to the basic values and beliefs. And yes, role models come into the values and beliefs of people. So we grow up with a certain set of values. So our core values pretty much don't change throughout our lives. They might change slightly. And, and if you have ever come and done any of my counseling, you know, come and done counseling with me. You know, there's a few key things that I bang on about which probably people get sick of hearing. And one of them is values and beliefs. Because values are our core values. So it might be you know, a set of values that don't change that inherently ingrained in us from from our parents or whatever. And then we have beliefs on top of that. So values are things like, like family, so like, you know, I value family a lot, because you know, I'm very close to my family, I get a lot of support from my family, I love my family dearly. So that is one of my core values is having family around me and having them support me. And, you know, if I go a month without seeing my mother, I'd probably, you know, gets a bit tense, you know, we have a really good relationship. So that's a that's like a core value. And then we have these beliefs on top of that. So beliefs are a little bit more they are what can be changed and influence. And as we grow and evolve, they change and open and all the rest of it. So I feel like everyone has that. But what we need to work on and you talk about moms being judgmental towards other moms, etc. is actually a lack of awareness for our, and I'm going to speak in riddles, probably. Yeah. So pull me up if you don't understand anything, because probably I need to explain it a bit more. But the opinions and judgments of other people towards other people, whether that be mums to mums etc, or non working or non mothers to mothers is a lack of self awareness and reflection. about unconscious bias. Yeah, explain that a little bit. Yeah. So I'll try and put it in simple terms. Okay. So if we think about a drug addict, right? Some people might think that it's their fault, that they can stop anytime that they want, that they have control over what they're doing. And they want to penalize that person. I think that, for me, is a underdeveloped opinion of a drug drug addict, because that has unconscious bias behind it. They don't know what that person has gone through in the in the startup their life, to the trauma that they've experienced, and the depth of the pain and emotional pain that they're trying to numb or, or whatever it might be. They don't need prison, they need healing. So that would be being aware of the unconscious bias, because once upon a time, I would have been the person that said, drug addicts need to go to prison, because they're just ruining life for everybody else, you know, like criminal criminal behavior, etc. But because my beliefs have evolved, I can now see a hole a picture. So instead of looking through a pinhole, we're now looking through a 20 centimeter diameter window. So it kind of makes sense. Yeah. So it's like you, maybe because of the way you grew up, or the way you your parents views where you've got that in. And so you have that until that time where you have whatever happens in your life, for whatever reason, or you start to educate yourself, whatever, you can change your opinion. So that unconscious bias is what you just have in New necessarily without realizing that's just how you see things, I guess. Is that Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah. And there's a there's a saying, and I've got to get it right. You don't know what you don't know. Until you know more. Yeah, so that information, like informed like those informed beliefs. And not everyone wants to have informed beliefs or decisions. It's hard. It's actually very challenging. And it's sometimes it's just easier not to. Yeah. Because you're not going to change somebody else to change their beliefs. Unless they're coming to you because they want to change, which is in my holistic counseling situation. They're coming because they want to be there. Yeah, they pay to be there they want they're paying me to help them to change their beliefs. But if you have someone that doesn't want to change, then there's no way that anyone else is going to check. You can argue with them until the mangoes blue, they're not going to change their beliefs because you told them to. Yeah, when you're talking about this, I'm just reminded of actually my father in law. We caught up with him on the weekend and he's in his early 80s. And we had this discussion about because I said about how childcare is really busy and we're, we're really full up at the moment. He says I do do you accept children from mums who don't work? I said, Yeah, we do. said Ah, I don't I agree with that. You said mums should be home with the children. And I went into this great big rampage about what so what's great about childcare, what's for the children and for the moms and I said, all this stuff, and you just don't know, whatever. I thought you haven't heard a single. I've said, like, literally, you have this as if you've got your beliefs, and you're not changing your beliefs. It doesn't matter how long I went on about my great, big, impassioned views of what I think so great about Chuck. That's great. Yeah, it's a prime example. And the only way that we can help people view the world differently, or view the situation differently as be a good role model. not preach, we don't, I don't preach to people, I don't, you know, lay it on the line of what they have to change. I'd be a good role model. You know, I talk about the science behind it, and you know, why things are better, you know, try and give them information, which doesn't, I don't, with no expectation information with no expectation. You couldn't have given your father in law, all of that information, and then expect it to change for him to change his belief. Because that expectation leads to disappointment on your behalf, which leads to anger on on your behalf. So we have to give people information without expectation. And I think a lot of the time people expect people to change because of their own. You know, if they've shared information, they expect that person to change straightaway. Which is just ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Cuz then they get disappointed and and then it affects relationships, then it doesn't it? It's like, yeah, absolutely. Yes, so identity, let's talk about that. The reality that when you have a child when you become a mother, that the way that you see yourself changes, and I guess that can also be influenced by society as well, about how you're supposed to see yourself. It really is the words I've heard mothers talk, like, they've experienced, like an identity crisis, basically, who am I, what am I, I only exist for this child. So what does that mean for you know, who I was before? It's in a grieving process to I suppose of the life that's, that's lost? Yeah. Share what you are how you feel about that. I definitely went through that. But probably, and a little bit when when I became a mother, like a little bit, but probably more so when I was forced to make a decision about whether to leave a job or not. And that was a important high up job. And I had this identity crisis around that. But as a mother, I think, this identity crisis, because literally, like, at the start of this year, I had an elderly couple come in, and they said we want to do couples counseling. And I said, okay, like, yeah, like, Absolutely, everyone's welcome. And I think they would have been in their late 70s. Um, he was quite active in the community. So, you know, he did lots of stuff around the, around their local community, and it's quite involved, and she just sat at home. And it just blew my mind that she had no purpose in her life. Other than being at home and doing the stuff at home. So she still hadn't found her identity from when she had kids like 50 years ago, for the last 50 years, she had not had her identity. And whether she even had that identity before she had kids, because don't forget, that was in a different era, like women, you know, to be seen and not heard, you know, married quite young, and that was their purpose, to marry to have children and to look after the house like that was their purpose. Yeah. And she spoke about being really sad and, you know, not looking forward to the future and really resentful that he was out doing things in his community. so I gently sort of spoke to her about finding her identity again. What are the things she loves to do? You know, does she love to go and have coffee with friends? Does she love to go hiking? Does she love to go dancing? And including some of those things in her life again. And she was really she really had a lot of trouble understanding that she can and has permission to to find all those things again. Yeah, that's literally give her permission to find all those things again, because she she thought that that was not okay. Yeah, when you were saying that I was the word permission was going through my mind too. It's like she was actually saying, Is it okay if I actually do this? Like? That's yeah. That's quite fun, isn't it? That's someone's Yeah. Wow. So, the back the mums that I work with, quite often who, you know, either their child's just gone to school, or they're a little bit older, and they're in childcare or the mums going back to work or whatever, is always around identity. And it's also around the self worth. So thinking of yourself as worthy. And I always say to them, Why aren't you worthy? Give me you know, give me a good reason why you aren't worthy to have two hours to yourself on a Thursday night to do whatever you want. Like, why are you not worthy of that? You know, so it's really, that identity thing is, again, I feel like it's patriarchal in society, you know, born from society. And then when social media comes along, it's like, it's amplified, like, 200% with this massive magnifying glass. I, I actually, I know, social media has its place. But it's destructive and damaging. And I can you know, in my other job, I am in high school counseling, high school students. And I just cannot even fathom why they enter into this bullshit on their phones, like I just. And these kids are, like, literally stuck to their phone and have probably the worst self esteem issues that I have ever come across. And it just blows me away. And it saddens me, It saddens me to the core, that these young girls, you know, starting at, say 1312, or 13, probably even know probably 11, they're starting at 11. Like caring so much about what other people think of them. Like, that's what they base their whole life on. And then, of course, then we have the identity stuff that comes later with with moms. And I know that, you know, it might be two different topics, but I think they're into the interplay because of the self worth stuff. Absolutely. I think it's almost scary to think how these young girls now and how they're going to cope with that motherhood. Because of the they've been in this world. I think it's interesting, like people like you and I, and probably a lot of people listening to this did live in a world before social media. So we can look at that and go, like my son, and something will happen. And I'll boost like, ah, that's no big deal. You know, because I'm not I have the hindsight and whatever I've lived that I've lived in a lot longer than him. And I can say that, obviously, that's not very helpful to him. But we know there's a world outside of social media, but for them, their whole world is that tiny, whatever exists on that phone. And it's really quite scary that absolutely, and I agree. And it leads to this identity and, and even identity, and I know, this is the probably not the identity that you're speaking about. But, um, gender identity. You know, a lot of the young people at the moment, you know, that plays into the identity because they have got so much information at their fingertips. It's like, this is like before the internet before social media, etc. You had to go and you had to look up scientific papers and encyclopedias, you know, remember those big Oh, yeah, like 100 of them? Yep. You know, it was it was qualified information. So you had to go and do research. Whereas now you can just type in Google. And it's not quantified information. It's not research backed. It's not evidence based. It's not. So I feel like the kids get overwhelmed. Like instead of just sitting with themselves sitting still within themselves or exploring the outside Oddworld all that information is just like an information superhighway. And it's just bombarding and it's confusing is honestly confusing for them. And I feel like that's the same with moms as well, you know, especially with raising babies, etc. Is that information overload. But I think the identity of mums, I hope that it's changing. And I think it is slowly but it's like, really, really slowly. It's like the snail. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hope that we can instill enough self worth in these mums to say that raising a baby is a two person job, you know, if you have got a partner, you know, that that other partner needs to step up. Or if you're a single mom, that doesn't have that partner, having that support network that they can call on, you know, to be able to take the baby for, you know, a day or a couple of hours or whatever. So the mom can actually fight, like, find herself and do things for herself. And I get it, like, when you're immersed in that newborn stage, you know, like, it's full on like that you live in breathing. Like it's, it's pretty suffocating. Like, you know, you're sleep deprived, your brains not functioning properly, you feel like, you know, you're either, you know, depending on how you feed, you either got the baby stuck to your boob or heating up bottles or sterilizing bottles. The hours on end. Yep. Okay, you do you fall into this world of just Baby, baby, baby. But I think at some point, when the baby gets out of that, being dependent on mum stage all the time, then we have to start exploring ourselves again, as Mum, you know, as as Carmen or Alison. Yeah, as a mum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And being confident enough to, like you said, ask for help. Using fit like, yeah, it really comes down to it really comes down to but the heart of this, from my perspective, anyway, the building up that self worth, so to feel like, you can ask for help, like, you're worthy enough to have that conversation with your partner and say, Can you please do this? Or I need your help, what can you help with for, you know, reaching out to people and then feeling confident enough in the way that you are parenting in the way that you are? living your own life that you don't feel so influenced by what you see around you, whether it is social media, or what were the what your best friend's doing? Or that kind of thing? Would that be? fair comment? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Um, and I feel like teaching our young girls self worth, you know, that's where it really starts doesn't, you know, teaching our young boys how to, you know, be sensitive and all the rest of it, you know, in tune with their emotions and all the all of that sort of stuff, and then with our young girls teaching themselves where. Like, I'm a huge believer of boundaries. I feel like women who don't necessarily have an identity or feel lost in their identity, don't have boundaries, because they feel like they need to please everybody else. And so that's, you know, another thing that I do harp on about is having these boundaries, you know, saying no to things, you know, not being afraid to upset people, because at the end of the day, you have to honor who you are and what resonates with you. And it is kind of like the whole the holistic picture, you know, you've I'm very introverted. So, you know, if I was to if you were to invite me to a big party, Allison, like, if I didn't have an identity, I might say yes, because I feel like I need to appease you by coming. But me as Carmen says, that environment and would really, really drain me. So it's not even about feeling uncomfortable because at this point in my life, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. I have a cold shower everyday like, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. So it's not about feeling uncomfortable in that environment. Although I would sit, you know, I would feel uncomfortable, but it's about okay, if I go to that party. So say if I go at eight, and I don't leave till 12am, Around 50 people that I don't know, I have to exchange small talk with 50 people that I don't know. That to me would take two days to recover from energetically. Yeah, be that be that draining and that, yeah. But you know, like, maybe 10 years ago, I would have gone to that party. And then and then wondered why I felt like shit for two days afterwards. But you know, like an extrovert. So my mom's really extroverted. So that would be her ideal situation to go to a party with 50 people that she didn't know. And I think that's part of our, you know, part of this identity stuff as well is learning. What gives us energy, what drains our energy, you know, what do we love? What don't we like, you know, exploring all of that stuff. Because that becomes the foundations of your identity, and being more authentic to yourself. Hmm. And actually like recognizing, because I'm, I, I'm sort of guessing, but there might be people listening today that might not have made that connection between that city save being in a situation that wasn't that great for you. And then you didn't realize why you felt pretty ordinary, you know, in the next day or the day after. So making those connections and realizing that there is more, maybe there's more to it than what we think there is if that's the way Yeah, absolutely. And also, it's about because if you have no boundaries, so say, say if I said yes to your party, then you you might feel great about that. But if I was to if I was to have the confidence to say no to your party, that takes a certain level of self worth, from me to say no, because I might think Alison won't like me anymore, because I didn't come to our party. Together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think the more you know, yourself, the more you're self aware about what what works for you, which is part of the holistic counseling process is, is rediscovering what, what works for you. And makes you and maybe for the first time actually looking at that, like, like, we talked about the lady before in your 70s that maybe wasn't even had that self awareness to actually go there. Their whole life maybe? Absolutely. And I feel like the identity comes from the seasons in our life as well. People get lost in the seasons in their life. So we give ourselves labels. So you know, mum is a label. You know, that's a season in our life where we're raising children. But then, you know, maybe after I have the stillbirth, I get, you know, rabbit holed into looking at support groups for stillbirth and everything and then I become Carmen who had a stillbirth. Does that make sense? Oh, Carmen, who works at dot, dot, dot dot, like this, this identity thing comes with these seasons in our lives. But it takes a lot to shed that ego because it is ego. Like when we identify with these things that we attached to. It takes a lot of, you know, courage and bravery to get rid of all those layers. And just be Common. Common. That's it. No labels attached. It's just me. This is who I am. You know, without all of that. Kind of makes sense. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and courageous enough to actually look at yourself. Like take away all those things that you think you are, or that you're seen to be? And just look at, actually, who is this person without? Yeah, without all that stuff? Why? Why do we have this obsession with labels? Like even when I start to speak to you, I asked you what, what do you call yourself? Like, you know, why do we have this thing that we've got to know? It's an E, it's definitely an ego thing. And it's not even like a conscious ego thing. You know, it's like when you say, when you when you meet someone for the first time, you know, say you're at a networking, lunch or whatever. And, you know, you say to people, well, Hi, I'm Carmen, and they say, Hi, I'm Allison. And then I say, what do you do? What does it matter what you do? Yeah. It's I'm here to meet Alison, you know, not Allison, who is the podcast person What do you call yourself? Podcast fears? It's not common the holistic counselor, yes, it's common. Yeah. Because there's so much. There's so much. I don't I don't know if this is the right way. So but there's so much more to pick a person and then just how they, how someone perceives them. So like, he could say, I'm Alison, that, that I, I am a mom of two and they'd go Alright, so that's what you are. You don't do anything else you have nothing else that you do. That's what you are, you know? Maybe pigeonhole. You don't mean, hmm. That's very interesting, isn't it? It is, it's very interesting. It's, and it takes guts to and vulnerability to stand there and say, I'm calm and full stop. Yeah, you're leaving yourself wide open for people to make their own opinions. Which kind of weapon enough to not care about that. Which is when you have when you have that self worth, then you can stand there and say, Hi, I'm Allison booster. And let you know and the way on the other side of things, if you know, if you are meeting someone new or whatever, and you don't want to subscribe to, you know, the labels or whatever. You can use curiosity. So, you know, Hi, I'm Carmen. I like to read, Allison. You know, you say Hi, I'm Allison. And I say, oh, Allison, what are some of your favorite things? Be curious about your person? Yeah. Tell me tell me about what you enjoy doing? Or, you know, yeah, it's not reaching for this, this label to describe someone. And it's almost like you feel when someone tells you the label, you feel like you found out all about them. It's like you've you've created that image, in your mind are what they are. And it's like, well, that's I don't need to know any more about you, you know, but then when you have that conversation, you actually, like you said, Be curious. Yeah, it's a completely different way of looking at it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if anyone will take that tip and try that at the next networking function are the x winning from a meeting some people are really. In spite of all Benko is on Instagram, we are on Facebook. And the sad thing about LinkedIn people told me that I need to know more about LinkedIn, but I'm there somewhere. I do check it occasionally. But yeah, you can just reach out and if you have any questions, you can email me and pretty responsive on on email and pretty try to be pretty responsive, responsive on social media as much as I can, at the moment. And have got one day a week where I'm canceling. Like for the full day. Again, I have to be careful with my energetic so I you know, I'm not I don't want to be a business. That's five days a week. I couldn't handle that. Unless I employ someone else. So yeah, and at the moment, I'm like, completely booked apart from one appointment for October, and which I'm truly truly grateful for. But it doesn't make it easy to get in. But what I say to people is please just always message me because if I get enough people I will open another day. It's just Yeah, balancing that. Yeah, get in touch. Like if you're if you're thinking about counseling or have any questions or just want to ask me a question, like I always am open for those questions. Yeah, that's lovely. And yeah, I think if anyone that's listening today if it's sort of sparked something in them that they think oh, I'd like to know more about that. Yeah, definitely reach out to Carmen I'll put all the links in the description so you'll be able to find it that's yeah, it's that's it you're so you're very very authentic person because you're like you said your your energy it's you have to be aware of yourself so you could go you know, like I think there's this idea in business that business has to be this great aggressive well that you know, the be all and end all everyone has to be busy, busy, busy, busy, busy at the at the expense of everything else in their life. That you're you're saying and you're you are showing that that is not how it works. And you can actually that's, again, you're setting your boundaries, you're respecting yourself your own self worth. So you're living the talk, you're literally living what you what you don't say you're practicing what you preach. You know what I mean? Like you are modeling. This is this is how I want to live my life. This is how I want to run my business. This is what's important to me. So I think that's, that's fantastic. It's, you're very, I'm not perfect. Oh, no one's perfect. Put that out there. Like, you know, I'm authentic 85% of the time, the other 15% I question myself and go, should I be, you know, aggressively marketing to you what I mean, like you always have that, those self reflection points. So, you know, we're not I'm not, you know, always. You've always got to have self reflection and awareness, I think is my point. Yeah, navel gazing. Yeah, exactly. Being still in the moment and absolutely about me waiting. Yeah. It's been a really, really enlightening episode, and I really appreciate you sharing and sharing so honestly, your own storytelling and I'm really grateful for your time calm and thank you. No, thank you, Allison. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be on here. So yeah, thank you. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben habit. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Alex Sinickas Australian engineer + designer S2 Ep76 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alex Sinickas, an engineer and designer from Bright, Victoria, and a mum of 1. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, re-creating the achievements of her childhood heroes Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond. She spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up, This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to Uni Alex studied engineering and also economics, She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects, she wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve their visions. 4 years ago Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite a shocking and painful experience, needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refused the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3D printouts of silicone cushions, which lead to Alex collaborating with a roboticist and a prototype coach, and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produced prototypes and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out, until they found the perfect fit. Thus began MilkDrop Pumps , a soft silicone pad that stretches over most brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in April 2021 and in the US in late 2022. Alex - MilkDrop Pumps Podcast - instagram / website What is STEM? ***This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, post natal depression and an IUGR pregnancy.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. This Week on the podcast. My guest is Alex cynic s. Alex is an engineer and a designer from bright in Victoria, and she's a mom of one. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, recreating the achievements of her childhood heroes, including Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond, she spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up. This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to uni, Alex studied engineering and also economics. She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects. She wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve four years ago, Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite shocking and painful experience needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refuse the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable, not just for herself. But for other mothers. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3d printouts of silicone cushions, which led Alex to collaborate with roboticists and a prototype coach and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produce prototypes, and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out until they found the perfect feet. Thus began milkdrop pumps, a soft silicone pad that stretches over many brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in 2021, and in the US in late 2022. This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, postnatal depression, and an IUGR pregnancy. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. And while you're there, please take a minute to subscribe to my new weekly email, which I'm sending out at the beginning of each week. I'm a little bit conscious that we don't actually own all the content that we post on social media. And in light of Mr. Elon Musk's recent takeover of Twitter and the changes he's made. I'm even more aware than ever that things could disappear in the blink of an eye. So I'd love to be able to keep in touch with you before that disappears. So jump on and subscribe to my weekly newsletter. The music you'll hear today, as usual is from my ambient music trio called LM Joe. We are based in Australia and it's myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome, Alex. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so you're based in your in Australia. Whereabouts are you in Australia? Yeah, I live in Brighton, which is about three and a half hours northwest of Melbourne. Yeah, I know. Right? Yeah. A lot of people when you say that, they say, Oh, I um, I went on family holidays there when I was a kid or something like that. Yeah, that's probably doesn't change that much. It's probably a little bit more popular now. And it's, you know, in winter, it's all about skiing. And in summer, it's all about mountain biking and road riding. And I remember the because I'm one of those people that not from family holidays. And the autumns are beautiful, which is stunning. Yeah, well, I'm I'm married to a Canadian and he reckons that it's the closest he can get to to Canada in Australia. So I feel like that's a nice, it's a nice compromise. We get to live here but you're Similar to Canada. Yeah, it's beautiful. It really is. And yeah, about three hours from Melbourne. Yeah, yeah. I have some great memories of that part of the world. Yes. Totally Beautiful. Very lucky. Oh, that's awesome. So you're an engineer and a designer. Can you share with us how you got into that field? I think I was just following my brother, actually, I might have a brother who's two years older than me. And through school. And growing up, he, he sort of involved me in all of his activities, really. So it was kind of just trotting around following him. And so our sort of childhood heroes were, you know, Indiana Jones and MacGyver, James Bond for that kind of stuff. So we spent a lot of time outside, digging up things and blowing things up, which is probably okay, these days. And so I just sort of learned about how to build things and curiosity about how things work from him, and probably my parents. And then I was always fairly good at maths. And so when it came time to go to, I knew I always wanted to go to uni, but not I didn't really know what I wanted to study, I thought, oh, maybe you know, medicine that's like what you do if that's what you're good at maths, which is a really strange concept, but that's kind of where it was at the time. But it just didn't really kind of make sense. And so I, yeah, I ended up doing engineering. And I did dumb economics as well, as my dad had said, like, oh, you know, I never really understood how money works and how businesses work. And I wish I'd known that. And maybe you might like that, too. So I was pretty, like, aimless. Although I was academically fairly, you know, good. But I really had no like idea about what I wanted to do. So that's how I ended up in engineering. And then, in terms of design, I got into that a bit later, one of the things you learned you do when you're engineering is you work in really big teams full of lots of different people. And I was working in structural engineering. And you end up working with architects quite a lot. And I loved what they did. Yeah, right. Grandfather was an architect. And I'd always loved design. And I'm probably not very good at it. But I know what looks good. I like being able to help people achieve that. And so I was always drawn to architecture and just, like, beautiful design, good design. Yeah. Right. So what sort of things had you been doing? Like you said, structural? Engineering, is that, like building bridges? And yeah, anything above the ground. So there's like a thing, you know, with engineering, there's lots of different kinds. My choice was, you know, electrical, chemical, environmental, and civil and so like, electrical seem too hard, I didn't really understand electricity, can't see it, you know, chemical like, I wasn't really that into chemistry, again, too hard to understand, can't see it civil, well, that's everything you can see. It's everything on the ground. So roads, rail, you know, it's water management, and then structural, which is things you can see above the ground. So buildings, bridges, anything like that. And so that kind of made the most sense to me, because I could see it, and I could understand how I, you know, I could make that. And so that's kind of where I ended up. And, yeah, luckily, I ended up working with this brilliant consulting firm called Eric, which is a, which was started by a guy who was an architect, also a philosopher, and an engineer. And he had this idea that if you worked closer with, you know, the designers at the very start, and with the people who were building it, you could create these really beautiful pieces of art. And so he started I think, in the 1960s. In the UK, he was Danish, and created this firm of engineers who were really oriented towards the dream of the architect, like, what did they want to create? And how could we bring the real world to that in a way that didn't like shut down their ideas, but was like, okay, yeah, you want to put, you know, some crazy structure up here that can't be built? Well, maybe it can be built, if we, you know, changed it like this. So use the physics in that way. And so, so he was, you know, he created this firm out of that and so I was lucky enough to fall into working for them, and that's where I learned about, you know, not necessarily being the artist yourself, but, you know, making art come alive. And I think architecture is one of those disciplines where, like, they can create some crazy stuff like, in the real world that exists, you know, and it's amazing to see what what, you know, what people can come up with. And I especially liked the kind of teamwork aspect of it, you know, you kind of needed a whole lot of things to come together to create these, you know, beautiful pieces. So, I didn't work very long in that, you know, as a structural engineer only a couple of years, but I worked in that firm for quite a while. Yeah, recently doing more research and development with them. Yeah. So up until that point, before this guy came up with this idea was this, was that a really sort of radical idea that people would work together in that way? Was it more like sheep would have an idea, and architects would just do their thing? And people wouldn't say, yeah. I mean, I don't know, there's probably historians, or people who were alive and working in that time, that would know better, it was always sort of shared with us, as part of the Kool Aid, you know, like about how it was not, you know, together. But I guess if you go back to like, you know, the idea of the Renaissance man, like art and science were very, very close, right. And I think as, possibly as you know, as society grows, and as disciplines grow you, you know, to be able to be an expert in your area, you have to get more and more narrow in your focus. And so it's very hard to be on top of everything anymore. Because it'll mean that you actually can't do that project, like you can't make it happen. So you get so individual people have to get more and more specialized. And so I wonder if like, you know, art fell off the way there. I think also, like, the economics of things changed. So the, the people with the power in the built environment now, which is what they call, you know, cities and things that get built. It's not necessarily the architect, I think it used to be that, you know, you might commission an architect to do a design, and then they might bring in like a bad engineer and some contractors to build it. And but the architect was like in control of the project, I'm not sure it's totally like that anymore. It's sort of shifted a little bit to the person who owns the property being the, you know, the person who's really making the big decisions. And so I'm not sure that we get quite as daring architecture anymore. Like, you know, would we have the Sydney Opera House? If it was 2022? Probably not. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think like that, that's probably changed. But yeah, I'm not sure what it was like, before, but in my view, it's always good to have more people earlier on working together, because often, often, you can actually make the thing happen that everybody wants, if you're there at the start. It's just Messier. It takes longer. And it's got a higher chance of failure. So it's easier to like go with what you know. Yeah, that's what you're trying to do. Yeah, that's interesting. And you've raised a point there that I'll bring you back to later won't dive into that just yet. But I've written that down for later. But I want to talk about what you're doing right now. So you have used your extensive experience in your engineering and your designing background to create a business called milkdrop. Can you tell us about that, please? Sure. So, yeah, so I was working for this company. And I went on maternity leave for my daughter, who's now three, nearly four. And I found myself on the end of a breast pump to feed her, which I found to be quite a shocking experience, I think, you know, we had trouble feeding directly at the breast. And so I was pumping on a breast pump, like six to eight times a day, just trying to express milk for her. And I ended up with really damaged nipples. And I found it really painful. And it just like, after a while, you know, I dealt with it for a bit, but after a while, it started to really annoy me that this product had been made that it wasn't clear how to use it, and it was hurting me, but I still kind of had to. And I started to think about how I could make that different. And so I had seen these experiments that people had Um, it's soft robotics are like, robotic. Yeah, like robotic creations that were made of soft silicone. So it's like hands that could pick things up. And it's like, why are breast pumps made out of robotic hands? I mean, the reason is that it's really creepy. And people just wouldn't accept that idea is super creepy. You know, like, everyone's always like, why don't you just make it well, like a baby? And like, would you put a fake baby on your breast to express milk? Like, it needs to be a little removed? Since but, so what I did was, I ordered a kit of silicone and a robotics kit. And I started trying to build something that would feel better than a breast pump, but still work. I mean, within about one hour, I ran into my own limitations of like, how to use these things, because I have no idea about robotics. So I called a friend Daniel, who is a roboticist. And he introduced me to a friend of his who worked at Swinburne University as a prototyping coach. So basically, students in any of the design subjects who have their final projects and want to create, you know, a piece of furniture or a piece of metal or whatever, he's there in the lab, helping them make it so he knows how to make stuff. And both of these guys are lovely. And so we sort of started working together on creating prototypes of breast pumps, that would feel better. I'm also married to a GP. So we had all of this like, insight into how the breast actually works, from sort of a medical perspective. And so the four of us sort of sat around and just started pumping out prototypes. And then every time I had to press pump, I would use Yep, try it out. And then we go back, 3d printed another model, pour some silicone, try it again. And so we did that, like 20 times. That was like the creative bid. And then after that, it's all just been full on, you know, manufacturing, fundraising, websites, kind of thing. But yeah, so that's where I got to. So yeah, the products called what we ended up doing was actually just creating a soft silicone pad that stretches over most breast pumps, we didn't even redesign the breast pump. Because we figured this would, you know, help more people, they've already got a breast pump. And then you just, you know, get this cushion and attach it over the top. So that's what we've been doing. And we launched that in Australia last year, and just launched in the US last month. So that's pretty exciting, helping a lot of women with pain and discomfort. And then we're still also working on other products in the background as well, because it's all good on Yeah, that is such an awesome story. Because it's like you've literally solved a problem, not just for yourself, but for everyone. Like that is so awesome that you can do that. You've got the skin. Yeah, you can. Yeah. I love. Well, I mean, it's not it's not always so straightforward. Like, the first product that we did. You know, it worked for about 75% of people, which firm in the medical world is insane, right. But about a quarter of people were finding they were collecting less milk because the cushion was kind of dulling the sensation of the pump. And so then we were like, Okay, what can we do about that? So we created a cushion that was thinner, or had less material on it, you know, sent that out to the people it wasn't working for dudes were like, yes, great, you know, and then we're like, doesn't fit everybody's nipple size, because everybody's different. So then we added more sizes. So you're like, just constantly trying to find something that works for everyone. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, yeah, you just like created this thing. And then it works for everyone is amazing. It's never quite like back lossy. Yeah, there's a lot to improve. And we, you know, we think we're sitting now at like about 90%. So we can help nine out of 10 women, and one out of 10 Unfortunately, we you know, we're still working on it. But you know, we can't help but what what we do instead is have free trial for 30 days. So you try it if it doesn't work, send it back, we'll refund you, you know, so we're not trying to add stress, but his you know, that's kind of our way of, you know, making sure that we're actually helping women rather than rather than sort of making it worse. So yes, yeah. Interesting process Yeah. When did you sort of first start this process? What year was Yeah, yeah, it took about six months to do the design, and then about 18 months to do the manufacturer. And really the holdup was not our design skill or manufacturing capability, it was money to be honest and time. So, you know, you've got jobs. Everybody's got jobs. And I feel like it's like, it was it. Who was it that said, like, you need A Room of One's Own? Is it Virginia Woolf, if I got the wrong English author, anyway, someone was like, you know, women will never be able to write until they have an income and space. And, you know, Shakespeare's sister wouldn't have become Shakespeare just by virtue of being female, right? Because women, you know, you, you don't have the luxury of being able to fail and have constant monies anyway, we all have jobs. And we had to sort of do it in our own time. So if we were employed by milkdrop, now, with funding, we probably would have only taken us sort of four weeks to do a design, and then it might have been like, nine months for manufacture. Yeah. So so we sort of had this process of like, you know, in our spare time making up these prototypes, testing them, redesigning them, you know, maybe we did like once, once a week, or once, once every two weeks or something, you know, then we'd go and try and patent that, and then take that around, apply for grants to get funding, and take that around to investors, or accelerators try and prove that there's a market without having a product to sell, you know, convincing people that this was worth investing in. And then, you know, finally, we managed to, you know, accumulate enough funding and investment to then manufacture it. So it wasn't that it took that long it was that it took that long to get them the money to pay for it. You know, the tooling just for these just for reference, it's like 40,000 bucks to make it all. Yeah, right. Like, if you're an existing company, that's fine. But if you're starting from scratch, that's a lot of money. You know, that's not, you know, you know, doesn't come pass by easily. And so yeah, so that's kind of what it took. So it was sort of two years from the idea to being in market. And then you know, it's really been a year and a half for us to even get enough traction to, for people to know about us, like the marketing is almost harder than the design. Yeah, it was like that was the I don't say that was the easy because, yeah, well, it's like, and then all this other stuff that has to happen afterwards. Yeah. Back when? And if this is appropriate question to ask. So you can you can say no, if you want, but because you've got money from other people, or then are you accountable back to them to show what you've made? And everything? And how does that feel really, like? nerve wracking? Sort of? Like, I don't know if that's the word. But yeah, I feel pressure from that. Yeah. You can make it feel like it's full of pressure. You know, like, It's always, it's always a challenge to report back. But, you know, we, we have really good investors, we, you know, we have mostly private investors, and then also the Victorian Government. And I think it's a challenge. Yeah, like, we read, like a monthly report back, right. And every time like, something doesn't quite go, right, you always find yourself wanting to put a spin on it and catching yourself being like, no, just tell it how it is. Because next month, you know, you're not going to be able to say this, I think actually, I've, I've been able to take a lot of the lessons from working in big teams on big engineering projects from that, that one of the good things about, you know, working in construction, or on big projects is that if it's a good culture, there's no blame, you just say what the situation is, you know, nobody's made a mistake on purpose, or like, you know, your prototype hasn't failed on purpose, you're not being lazy, you're not misusing money, you're trying your best to get something over the line, it's really hard to do if it was easy to be done. So you just have to kind of make sure you don't fall into that trap of like treating your investors. Like it's the media, you know, that it has to be a spin on a story or whatever. So yeah, I'm pretty blunt with where things are at. We share as much information as we can, as we have. And the usually the way it works is the investors are far less worried about the things I'm worried about than I am, you know, usually the, you know, usually they're saying things like, no, no, you got this just keep going, like, you know, tell us about your thinking about this. And then they want to talk you through it. It's not like a reprimand relationship or a bad boss. It's like a group of people who want you to succeed. You got to tell them what's going on if you if you want their help. It's kind of Yeah, it's almost that nurturing sort of environment where if you've got a problem and no, because I guess they've had many years experience in business or it'll the diary is they'd be like, well, actually, this isn't a big deal like you know, Oh, it is easy. Yeah. Have you looked at this? Like, how come you haven't looked at this? Like, oh, I didn't even know that was the thing, you know? So I think like, it's just, it depends how you frame it. And it could I think, if I was a little younger, and you know, hadn't learned all of those other lessons, it would be an easy trap to fall into, but I think, yeah, with a little bit of experience, like, oh, no, this is an asset. This is awesome. Just gonna, you know, be grateful that these people want to be involved in this project. And, you know, ask them for as much help as I can get and communicate as often as I can. So I think, yeah, we've we've been really lucky. I'm sure it's not like that with everyone. And I think also by the fact that this product is about women's health, which is, you know, notoriously under served and chronic pain for women is overlooked in or you attract, you attract a certain kind of investor, right? You know, they're already, they're already thinking differently. And they already probably really care about this. So it's a bit of a filter, as well, like, it can be frustrating, because like, oh, how come I'm not getting more investment? How can I seem like the same person as me, also called Alex, but a dude, you know, raising twice the amount and half the time kind of thing. And you can get annoyed at that. But then when you look at who you've got the quality's so good, that you think well, you know, yeah, so yeah, no complaints. Yeah. Good question. I know I sorry. That's okay. I didn't I didn't pre warn you with that. Well, I just thought of it as we're talking about, I thought, I wonder what's that? Like? Yeah, sounds like can be stressful. There's always there's always things that are going well, and things that aren't going well. And yeah, you've just got to like bite the bullet and talk about things not going well. Because if you were in that position, you'd want to know and help us. You'd want to be able to help to like having kids, right, because they don't tell you what's going on. How can you help them? Yeah, that's a whole new conversation. Oh, man. So speaking of children, you mentioned that you started this out with you when you had your daughter. So how old is your daughter now? She would be she's studying for next month or Yeah, right. Yep. And that's your only child. You've got one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had. We have tried since but I just keep having miscarriages. Which sucks. I'm so sorry. Oh, that's okay. It happens to lots of people. So, yeah, it's just it's been a fairly big gap. Maybe we'll be able to have another one. Maybe not a I've got seven years between mine Never say never. Yeah, exactly. So just sort of taking it easy with that, I think, you know, the last few years of the pandemic and also trying to grow business and life's busy my husband just is just about to sit his final exam for for, you know, final final, the last one after, you know, 15 years of study. So that's all been pretty full on like, we're just yeah, just kind of trying to take it easy. What's your sort of your days look, like you said before about how you all had jobs? And that what is your main thing now? Yeah, so about a year ago, I moved to almost be more than that. Actually. I moved into full time on milkdrop. And, but most people working with us are part time. We have a fully remote team and I call hyper or extreme flexibility with hours. So we have some people, you know, brilliant people doing marketing and content for us. And, you know, two of the three of them are mothers. And, you know, my view is like you work whatever works for you. So if you need time off, you take out if you don't, whatever, if you want to work at midnight, that's fine. If you want to work at 7am that's also fun. No rules, and no requirements, as long as you're getting the work done. And as we all know my There's a total machines when it comes to getting work time because we don't have time for bullshit. Yeah, so like, you know, for the parents, that's what we do, and then we try to make sure that, um, for people who aren't parents that, you know, they are able to use that flexibility how they want as well. So it's not just sort of something that's provided to one group of people. Because they made a choice. It's everyone gets that. And it seems to be working quite well so far. But it's super early days. Yeah. So my days, I like to have a bit of structure, actually. So I'm Monday to Thursday, you know, nine to five. My daughter has daycare here, Monday to Thursday. And then on Fridays, I'll do I'll sort of do a few hours for sort of Friday over the weekend, like customer service stuff and other things that need to happen on the weekends. So I kind of break that up. But I try not to do anything too taxing. And yeah, the days like, I work best in the morning. So I do like the hard work in the morning. And then I moved to the kind of Bitsy tasks that you have as a business in the afternoon. We have our design meetings once a week, always. And that's with those same two boys that I was working with at the start. He Yeah, we basically try to either prototype, a design that we're working on during that week. So we've got something to report back. So we sort of operate on like a weekly cycle. But both of those guys are working in other jobs as well. But yeah, we that that seems to be working quite nicely and moving fairly quickly. Yeah, and then you know, it's a total mess whenever grad is sick, or were sick, or you No, okay, closers for some reason, or they issue random public holidays, you know, which is great for people with jobs, but not if you and your business. So I sort of feel like on average, we're getting about four days a week worth of work. So I've just tried to get really, really efficient. And some days that works better than others. Most of the time, I feel like a failure. And then every time, every now and again, something good happens. And like oh, maybe I'm not such a terrible business person after all. Yeah. But I did learn one of the great things I did learn from one of our investors and mentors is to print out good reviews that you get, or comments that people send you. And when you're having a crappy day, just kind of read through those. And yeah, that does make you feel better. Because it's kind of like, you know, the whole reason I started with because I was annoyed that women weren't being you know, that the, you know, this dis product shouldn't be hurting women, and we could do a better job. And so, you know, when you hear that back that you've changed, your product has meant that someone isn't having pain anymore, and they're able to feed their baby breast milk, which is what they really wanted to do. And you know, they were feeling awful, because they felt like they might have to give up and now they don't you know, that kind of stuff like, Oh, that's really cool. You know, it's nice to have that effect. Yeah. And never underestimate that. Because that I went through an experience with my breastfeeding journey, where at one point, I was producing so much milk that my baby couldn't latch, and then they suggested that I use a shield, which was great, because he could latch but then it decreased my amount of production because the baby wasn't touching my breast. So it was an I went through a lot of issues. And when things finally were good, you know, it changes your whole world. Like it literally changed everything, you know, so I can imagine. I mean, yeah, I was lucky. I never struggled with a lot of pain. But I had other issues. So yeah, it's, it's anything about like the context that you're operating in, right? Like you've got a woman here who got pregnant, stay pregnant, managed to have a baby. And then if things aren't going super well with feeding or any other part of their babies, like it is full on, especially in that first week or two after birth. Yeah. So no matter how you had the birth, no matter how the baby is going, something is going wrong, like nobody cruises through this period. And so this is the situation that you're in. And this is like, this is the point where we're kind of trying to help and so I think like, that always makes it pretty real. Sometimes, like you you kind of wish you were involved in something more fun. Like you know, when you go to do your marketing campaigns, you're like, Oh, I'm so sick of it being such a downer all the time and Be like, No, you just feel like that because you're four years past it. But back in that moment, yeah. Any help is good to help and numb. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because yeah, like when you. I mean, I had a lot of experiences with postnatal depression and I'm sure you know, all these little things that were happening but all all combining to make this a massive oh yes that's it isn't it I remember with my my second baby because he was born, he wasn't early, he had IUGR. So in my when he was being made, my placenta sort of stopped working about 26 weeks, but no one brought that up. So he was completely formed all these organs and everything like his lungs were mature everything but he had no meat on his bones. Basically, he was in a bind. So he was four pound 14, and he come out. And it was like, you can see every breath he took, you could see his diaphragm second, like it was, it was like I couldn't I had these ideas that I you know, I exclusively breastfed my first baby. And I said, Yep, I'm going to do this with my second. But right from the very beginning, he had to be on formula because he just had to be fed straightaway through this, like the tube, the gavel into his stomach. So they had me pumping. That's all I was doing was pumping. And luckily, they had an electric pump at the hospital. The only other pump would ever use was a manual one. And that was Yeah. Oh my gosh. Just not fun at all. Yeah, and it was like, they just like just just do it. And I was like, But how, like, she was just like, we'll the TV and and show you this video. That must be like 50 years old. And I don't know. And every time I'm not, I'm not begging, you know, midwives at all. But just about every person had their own idea of how to attach and how to latch and how to hold and how to listen. Oh, man like to listen to? Exactly, yeah. Yeah. You know, I was in the public system. So every time you rang that bell, you didn't know which nurse, you're going to say, you know, it's the same in practice sounds like, you know, it was the same credit. Yeah, it was just like, my head, I want to go home. I just want to go home and just do it one way, just pick away and do it. But then it has the questioning, like well, is one way that I'm choosing the right way? And like, this is the biggest consequence decision in my life, because I've got this baby I'm responsible for now. Like, if I do it the wrong way. Will they get enough food? Like, it's just, it's just, yeah, I Your story is not unfamiliar. Like? Yeah, we've spoken with a lot of women now. And that that whole, like, conflicting information? Thing is, yeah, it's everywhere. Yeah. And not always ending up with the best outcome for the for the mom or the baby. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. They used to say to us, when we'd ask, what what do we do? What should we do with the baby? And they'd go every baby's different. And yeah, would drive us crazy. Good. We know that's true now, but at the time, when you've got no idea what you're doing, it's your first baby. And you just want someone to tell you what to do. Yeah, yeah. In the end, my husband said, If I hear every, every baby's different one more time, I'm bloody going like he was just like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, find sites beautiful thing, but gee whiz? Well, you know, like, one of the reasons why we don't know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. So there's, there's, you know, good evidence base about skin to skin and good evidence base about a whole lot of things, but not, not everything. And so quite a bit of it is kind of left up to people's individual experience with what they've seen. Or just kind of intuition about stuff, and that's fine. But if if we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, you know, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs, and you know, you wouldn't have be left feeling like that. So, you know, part of this is, is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed and it's best for baby blah, blah, blah, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? You know, where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we didn't have funding for them, like, you know, so I think a lot of this is kind of see like problems around the places like, are these problems that can feasibly be solved, you know, in science are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to put our cash in that area. It's a little cynical, but I think that's true. No, I agree with that. I disagree with that. Also something cynical, if it was a man's problem, like to put more money, we wouldn't even have to have to have babies, it will be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's another one. So what I want to ask, and I'm not asking you to give away your secrets or anything, but with the other you said you're working on some other things? Are they things that are born from that similar? Like experiencing something or seeing something that you've you've got this passion? Yeah. Yeah, it's all about breast pumps. At the moment. I'm like, we would love to do more products. Like one big area that I've been really interested in is incontinence. It's another one of these, like, everybody has it. You know, so, but, you know, what we're really good at what we've learned how to do is silicone products and, and things that have something to do with the human body. So yeah, so we're still working on breast pumps. And we're working on creating a, you know, these are just cushions at the moment, but we're working on a full breast pump. So that's what we're doing. But in terms of how that works, I'll probably keep that under wraps. It'll be a while before that. So yeah, that's what we've been working on. Which has been fun. Card. Yes. Fun slash card. Yeah. When you say about incontinence, it's really funny, all of a sudden, it's almost like it's cool to have the incontinent Sandy's and it's like, where were they 15? A woman who needed them. Right? Yeah. Another reason why we need more women in STEM, right, you know, that you have a habit of solving problems that you see if you don't see the problem, you know, and solve it. So I think, you know, the, this kind of world of these? Yeah, like, Where was that when I was, when I was pregnant or suffering from this, I think we'll see less and less of that as we go. Or, like, we'll start to see these problems solve more and more, as, you know, you start to see these professions that are in charge of designing things, start to have more women in them, or, you know, people who identify as women who are having those problems. So I think it's only gonna get better. But yeah, there's a lot once you start scratching the surface, you're like, oh, and that Oh, and that oh, you know, yeah. So on that, do you think that it's like, because I know, with the schools, they're always saying, you know, girls getting into STEM and all that sort of stuff? And at the other end of it having women who are the ones with the money, I guess, who are the investors? Is it sort of a bit of both? It's like, encouraging the girls to break through these glass ceilings, I suppose. Or the boys club or whatever. Yeah. But then at the other end, having having the women who sit who might say, Yes, I'm passionate about this, because it's a women's issue, and I want to support it. Yeah. It's like, my grandpa always used to say, like, follow the money. He was Lithuanian, adult, very thick accent and, you know, follow the money, where's the money coming from? And it kind of does make sense, like, you know, why aren't these problems solved? Because, like I said, before, you know, it could have taken us four, six weeks to make this thing and took us two years, because we had to convince people to give us the money now we were able to convince them. And that was awesome. Thank you. But there are plenty of people who aren't able to convince other people to fund to fund these sorts of things. And I think, yeah, well, you know, when you look at the proportion of startups that are led by women that are funded, it's a lot lower, like there's you can Google all of this, like it's pretty, it's pretty dire. And there's a lot of arguments why, like people say, Oh, well, there's not as many women asking and not as many women in technology. And so then you say, Yeah, but why, you know, I don't think there's anything innate about or girls and boys when they young about their problem solving abilities or their ability to design or do art or anything like that. I think it comes a bit later. Yeah. And so yeah, I think it's sort of, you know, what are we teaching them? What are we making look exciting and cool? Yeah. What? You know, you have a lot more often, people say they have more women enrolling in engineering disciplines, such as Humanitarian Engineering, and Environmental Engineering. And then we start putting all of these like stereotypes on women, like, they just want to work for their community, they want to work for environment, like, they don't want to do dirty stuff, you know, so that, that the, you know, they're a little like, flashes everywhere. I guess my point is that it's very complex. But it is, you know, multi multifactorial, which is like a fancy way of saying, we don't really know, and there's lots of things that happen. But you know, part of it is fun. Part of it is education. Part of it is society, part of it is, you know, when we're not putting enough effort into retain people, part of it is like the dropping out after having babies, because it's too hard to get back into work. Like, there's just so much stacked up. It's not really there to prevent this from happening. It's yeah, yeah, like, in a nice way, but we're living in that society, and the odds will be stacked against us, you know? Yeah. And I don't think anyone's doing it intentionally move to this new phase, where it's kind of just like, hung around. And those systems have been designed in a way that are like that, you know, no, one person in that system is like, I'm gonna push women down exam, but maybe they are, but they've never said it to me. And I haven't actually seen that. But what I have seen is, you know, maybe you go and pitch your idea. And they're like, oh, I'll just text my wife to find out how she found pumping you like, No, how about you go and investigate the market, and take a look at the opportunity. And think about this as a solution in the same way that you would investigate any other pitch or any other product, you know, maybe someone wants to auto turn petrol cars into electric cars, you wouldn't go and ask your mate who drives a car, whether or not that's a good idea, you would do your research at a, like, you know, market scale. So it's stuff like that, where, you know, it's not intended to, to be sexist, or whatever, but it kind of ends up like that way, because we have all of these biases. So I think, yeah, you know, it's hard to hard to combat but there are people who are trying to combat it, you know, there are plenty of groups where they're actively, you know, recruiting, not majority female investors, necessarily, but trying to find founders who have women, you know, running their companies or whatever, and presenting those to people who have the cash. You know, there's funds, government funds that are set up, to try to sort of make up that difference that women don't see in funding. So if they're, if they're receiving, you know, 50% of the funding or less of a man, you know, equivalent man, so like, a man is able to raise a million dollars, and the woman has to raise 500,000, or something like that, then the government's are stepping in to try to make up that gap. You know, there's plenty of people doing lots of good things. So it'll work. But, you know, sometimes it needs a bit of a kick up the bum to Yeah, but that is good that, you know, everyone's I feel like everyone's aware of, like you said, the systems that have are in place, and if we go to my hands, like, they're floating around us, it's not like someone standing there, you know, enforcing all this stuff. It's just the world we live in. It is and it doesn't make it better. And in some ways, it makes it harder, because you can't put your finger on it. Like, you know, I, I sort of, it's like, you know, back in the 60s, if you had a person who was working, you know, who happened to be a woman who's probably a secretary and, and someone hits her on the bum, like, clearly sexist harassment. Yeah, that never happens. It doesn't happen so much. These days, it's sort of all under the, you know, feels like it's more under the radar, it's not as easy to point to. Obviously, there's lots of cases where that's not the, you know, the case, and there's a spectrum and, you know, really serious stuff happening, you can see it all over the news. And not on the news. But but for the sort of like little tiny things that are happening during the day, like, you know, you can't call out all of it. But you do know, when you look at it empirically, the results are that women are getting funded, less women's problems are getting solved less. Women's pain is more overlooked. You know, all of this stuff on you know, when you look at it in the big picture is definitely happening. So, how do we go about addressing it? I'm not really sure. I'm sure there are much more experienced people who know more about what they're talking about. But you're part of what I don't see part of the solution that sounds like really And police, I think literally are you're in the trenches doing the work by creating these products. And by getting women involved in making these products funding these products. And I think that's fantastic. Because it has to start somewhere literally, like, it's what I always say, when I read things about how to make change, it's like, but where do you start? Like, really actually start, but I feel like what you're doing is, yeah, well, you start with what you can control, right? Like, you know, there are plenty of businesses that are aimed at trying to improve that postpartum experience or the fertility experience are plenty of them. You know, some of them are based on building up communities of women, you know, that's like what you're doing right? So that happens to be your skill, I'm not good at that. I'm not good at designing things. So this is the one thing I can change. So I think it's just, you just like, you know, you look at the all of the things that are in your sphere of concern, and you look at them the next ring down, which is your sphere of influence, you can't actually change it, but maybe you can influence it a bit. And then there's your sphere of control. So what can you do in that sphere of control that's going to have the biggest influence? And then maybe, over time, you can make that change? But I mean, it's hard. We've got, you know, cop 27, or whatever it is this happening while we're recording. You know, these people haven't been able to make change on like, such an obvious threat. So I think like, change is hard. Yeah, I think you've just got to kind of do what you can control. And hopefully don't go, you know, don't let it sort of derail you too much when it doesn't change as quickly as you'd like. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it Yeah. So when you work before you had your daughter, were you working? Like full time? Or? Yep. And then how did how did you sort of feel about that change of them, becoming a mom and having you focus almost solely on your daughter? Did you go through any sort of, I don't wanna say existential crises. But how was that experience for you? Um, I didn't find out too bad. My husband is really involved in daughter like, we definitely 5050 Maybe he's 6040 We will also at the time of the she was actually my second pregnancy, I had a first and it had ended in a stillbirth at like, 20 Something weeks. And so I was quite anxious throughout the pregnancy. And so that was my challenge. It was like, am I gonna get through this? And so we'd moved back in to mom and dad's house. And we were just all living as I know, it sounds very old school. But I'm European. I don't know, but we loved it. So we were living in my parents house had the baby, and everyone was there to help. So I didn't, it was a shock in that year. Now I've got this child and feeding wasn't going super well. But once we kind of got through that. actually really liked it. I didn't expect to I thought that I thought that I'd hate not working. But I was kind of working on milkdrop Like I had things to work on. And I've always have you know, as long as Yeah, and I wasn't 100% on the baby. So it was sort of quite balanced. I probably not remembering a whole lot of stuff. But yeah, I guess we had three adults before adults for one child. And and we had help and meals and time to walk outside and you know, if I needed a shower mum or dad would take Grettir if Andrew was working like it just wasn't sort of as stressful. So I think I had a lot more community. And also all of my friends had been through it too. And I'd been kind of dealt a blow beforehand. So I'd already had Add that like, oh, maybe you can't have everything you wanted. And it's not all that easy. So when I did have that, when I did have Greta, I was just thankful that, you know, I could have a baby. So, I think, yeah, it wasn't such a big deal for me. I didn't like how when, before that, when I'd said that I was getting married, how I suddenly like people were saying, like, oh, when are you going to stop working or like, you know, or when you got pregnant, the first time I was commenting about it, and feeling like I had to go into a different part of the business to keep my job because you know, engineering can be pretty full on and so like, all of that sort of stuff. I just, again, it's like the unsaid thing, but that was more about a phase in life. And, you know, I did work in a company that really wanted women to stick around, and they really supported me and I, you know, felt very loved and included and all the rest. So it wasn't sort of that much of an issue for me, maybe that's just, yeah, maybe it's, in hindsight, I did find that I wanted to get back to working within about four weeks, as in not working, but like working on something. So I didn't, I didn't like, I'm just, you know, I didn't settle in very well to just being with my baby. Like, I found myself like walking down to the cafe, getting her sleep. And then, you know, getting out my laptop and investigating something that's silicone, you know, but that's just what worked for me. And so yeah, I was lucky enough that I could do that. And, you know, for maternity leave and all these other privileges. So, yeah. But, like, something that I do talk to moms about on this show is having that outlet, because we can't, I mean, I'm sure there's somebody that can but it's not may be 24/7. Thinking about my children, like, I'd go insane. Yes. Yeah, I think that that's normal. Like, I mean, we also I think when you, you know, you have Yeah, like identity is an interesting one. Because, I mean, I had Greta at 35. So you know, you've got your life, like, I didn't change my name in marriage, because I've always been called by my last name, all the way through school and uni. So I kind of was my identity, I had already worked for a decade, like I'd, you know, felt like I'd sort of fought my way through a fairly male, I wouldn't say I don't say dominated because they weren't aggressive. But yeah, majority male environments like so I sort of felt like I had, like, gotten to this point. And then actually what, what I had trouble with was, then all of a sudden, you're sitting on the end of a pump, you're like, oh, no, wait, I'm just a mammal that's here to be milked for the benefit of my offspring. That felt like shit. Sorry, that felt terrible. No, you can say that. Yeah, I think, you know, that's why I sort of started to design that because I felt like, well, no, hang on. Women who have been through this shouldn't be feeling like this, I think I did a survey at the very start to see if anyone else had these issues. And for every 10 women, seven had nipple pain or discomfort using pumps, and eight felt like a cow. So like, I expected the physical thing. But I didn't expect everyone to feel that way emotionally about their product. And the other thing that I didn't like was that people are on pumps, because they're trying really hard to feed their baby breast milk, because that's what they want to do, if that's what they want to do. So, but then they're kind of like, given this experience where like, this thing's wheeled in at them, they're not really explained how to use it. It's sort of like a punishment, but these women should be held up, you know, like they should be, they should be held up on pedestals, these people are sitting on the end of a machine to milk their breasts to give breast milk, like they've trying really hard, really, really hard. Especially, you know, some of them pumping like 12 times a day, they're up in the middle the night turning this machine on, you know, I think so that kind of bothered me. And I think, um, yeah, I did struggle with that. And that's why I created these. But I kind of didn't necessarily see it as just motherhood or my particular reaction to it. I saw it more as, here's another case of where women's experience is overlooked. And, and I didn't want to also, you know, be too critical of these restaurant companies, because they're trying to design something that is affordable, that fits lots of people, the human race is super diverse, like, how do you get something that works for everybody's anatomy and physiology? Like it's not an easy thing to do? And people expect a lot you know, off their products for a certain price. Like I get how they've come into being and I'm glad that they exist, whatever, but I just felt like, you know, we could we could do a better job. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now that's so good. Like, I can definitely relate to this the cow feeling and that then feeling feeling like literally like an animal. Like, like you said, you're supposed to, like if you shouldn't be revered if you're feeding your child and then you go out of your way to get the milk out of your body to continue feeding your child you should you shouldn't be held up on a pedestal, you know. And just like I saw, I see it all the time on like, people I follow on Instagram, but all these particularly in America, they've got an something's going on over there. With the they don't have as much maternity leave or any maternity leave. Like it's not set up, like here in Australia. Yeah, it's tied to their employment. Yes. Yeah. And, and the fact if anyone actually wants to pump, it's like, what do you want to do? What are you talking about? Like, it's not actually something that, like employers give any credit to. And I know from myself as a, as a musician, like, I've had to pump a lot of times, like most like gigs, when you're away from the kids for, you know, more than at least three hours, you know, you're gonna have to, and being in toilets or out in the car, and it's like, you just feel like you're like shamed, shunned away from everybody? Yeah. Oh, I don't know. It's just it's pretty rough. I think. I mean, America is a fascinating place, right? Like, they, they have these conditions, but then they also have, you know, there's an entire company set up there, they're called Minerva. And they create pods for lactation. So you can pop them in stadia, or you can put them in the airport or at university campuses, or downtown or whatever. And there's another one company called Milk stock, which will collect your milk pumped milk, like say you're away for work for a couple of days. And you know, you need like, you need to pump if you're feeling you need to keep that milk supply up. So, though, pick up your milk and send it back to your baby, wherever they are, like so there's all these like, it's, it's not like, yeah, the US is a very diverse and fascinating place. But yeah, they have terrible maternity like terrible government parental leave schemes and like people that kind of on their own, but it doesn't mean they have these other services around and businesses that kind of help them sort of difficult to grasp sometimes coming from coming from Australia, we've definitely learned a lot starting to sell these cushions over there. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Something else I like to talk about is the topic of mum guilt. And I find this really fascinating one because some mums I've had on have actually had to google it to find out what it was. And I think that is brilliant. And I wish that was me. And what's your thoughts on mum guilt? What it is or how to deal with it? Like do you have you experienced it? Or did you have to Google it? Like, where are you at? Yeah, I mean, mom guilt depends how you define it. Like, do I think I'm being a good mother to my daughter? Yes. Have I felt guilty that I'm not around for her sometimes, but I'm not not around for her. Like she's, she's living her best life? For sure. Yeah. She has a lot of people looking after. So like I said, My husband is there a lot. You know, she's, she's got a lot of friends. And because we live in a small town, the community around her is quite strong. You know, she knows her friend's parents, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, she's having a good childhood, she's safe. She's learning lots. She's, you know, she's pretty lucky. So I don't feel guilty about my parenting. But I do have the mom guilt about work. So, you know, am I working fast enough? Am I working hard enough? am I delivering for these people who invested in us like do they realize that I am only working nine to five? You know, am I okay with that? Because there's this culture in that kind of startup world of, you know, working 100 hours a week, which you just can't do. You know, it also comes when And you know, my daughter is sick, and I can't work that day. So there's this like, constant feeling of never getting through the pile of stuff you got to get done. And I've had to learn ways to deal with that, and not get riled up by it so much. But yeah, I find that side of it really, really hard. But in terms of like, am I being a good enough mom compared with the moms I see on Instagram? Yeah, most of the stuff that I see on there is like material stuff. You know, like, are they dressed in the right clothes? Well, no, she's always filthy. But that's because she's been playing outside in the mud, which I think is a good thing. So I think I just, yeah, I don't really have that too much. I did feel guilty that I wasn't feeding her properly. But since she's gotten older, and, you know, we, I was sort of worried like, Oh, um, you know, breast milk is, you know, it says here that it's better for them, and you know, better for their development. And like, what if I'm stunting our growth or, or making a too big? Or like, what if, you know, she's not able to, you know, develop emotionally because she's been fed formula, all that stuff, like at four, there is nothing wrong with this kid. And it's, like, I think, I think I sort of, in the sort of emotion of that time, I think I took overall statistics, too seriously. And, you know, I'm sure there's cases where that's the truth, but you know, you're not looking at it holistically, like, you know, she's got, you know, she's lucky enough to have parents who love her and look after her and she's fine. So I think I'm, I'm much less concerned about that. And that that was like a fairly big lesson. And so, you know, when you go through all those milestones of kid hood, you know, toilet training, really, like we're going through breeding right now, like, I'm not too fussed about it, I just figure well, you know, she'll figure it out. When she's ready. We'll just keep teaching, she seems to like to learn. You know, the only time I get upset is when she's not nice to other kids. And I think I'm kind of a psychopath. But But like, you know, all of that is fixable as well. So I think like, it's not pretty age appropriate. Yeah, I just don't get too stressed about that. And I think she'll, you know, she'll be fine. She's, she's, she's not the one that, you know, we need to be improving things for. Hmm, no, that's really great answer. Yeah. And I'm wondering if I were going before when you talked about living with your parents and having perhaps that, that village that we don't sort of, say so much every day now. And you talk about coming from a European background? I wonder if that I'm not a psychologist, by the way, I'm just I have ideas and I say them out loud. I wonder if that's contributed, like that level of support has allowed you to relax and mother the way you want to mother and not feel any outside? You know, expectations from outside? Because you're really secure in the unit that you've got. Potter? Yeah, I think so. And I've never really been particularly like that concerned about peer, maybe peer pressure or like, perception of others. I think I the thing I do care about is if someone felt that I was being unkind or untruthful or mean or anything like that, I would be totally distressed. But in terms of like, someone judging me to be parenting the right way, or cool, or any of that stuff, I've never cared, and I don't think I ever will. And so, I think that really helps because going into parenthood, you're just like, well, this is, you know, this is what I think is good for my kid. And I just look around at the other parents and I see and I like, take what I like and don't do what I don't like, and, you know, every kid's different, every parent's different. Everyone's juggling their own thing. Like I actually think there's probably less judgement than we think and a lot of that actually, coming from ourselves. So yeah, I mean, I've got really supportive parents. You know, my mum's a super practical, like, pragmatic woman. And, you know, sometimes I'd go to her and say, How do you think I'm doing this? Right? She's like, after worrying about it's fine, you know? Like, she just sort of shuts it down. You're like, Alright, cool. And you're like, well, that's kind of drama. Yeah, that's, that's obvious. Yes. I think that's nice. Yeah. It's nice to have that grounding. Because I think if you're like on your phone, and you start Googling this stuff, you're like, Oh, my God, I'm doing all these terrible things. And I think, you know, you can't hear one thing that made me feel better was like, okay, You look at like Louis, for example, in those parents, like super involved in their kids lives and into their imaginations or whatever, but then you realize it's a seven minute episode. Seven minutes. So you've got like, 24 hours times, 60 minutes, whatever that is, like, you just can't perform to what's out there. So as long as you're keeping them safe, they know they can come to you, if they've got a problem. They get to try to do things and meet different people nurture their curiosity, like I just, you know, we're going to stuff them up in some way. You can't predict it. Like you just kind of wait to see what happens and try to build there. Like, I think you just got to build the sort of building blocks of coping and joy and curiosity and hope that they come to you when they have problems. That's, that's, yeah, no, I really like that. It's very, like I can, I can tell you a lot like your mom like that pragmatism and straightforward. It's like, Yep, it's fair. I mean, I'm not really Yeah, like, I still. So we live, like I said, we live in Brighton, there's a lot of people who are very good at sport here, I'm not one of them. But the kids around here are very free. You know, they're the bike track, they ski, they climb, they do all sorts of stuff. And they're very, I would say, like, physically aware, like, physically pretty good. And so, and some of the other parents are a lot better at this than I am like, they'll let their kids you know, experiment like, you know, ride down that steep slope that ends in a, you know, Cliff, and they'll be totally fine with that. And I'm like, Oh, my God, this is my group is child. I don't want to know how to self I just wanted to be competent, you know, so I definitely have issues with that. But I also know that if she learns her limits now, it'll be better for her later. So yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not perfect. No, apparently, is. It is that balance, isn't it? It's because that's the thing. We still have to sleep at night, you know, even if they want to do like, jump off the roof. It's like, well, hang on a sec. Oh, that's where I draw the line. You know? Yeah. You gotta hit boundary. Yeah. Like, my, my boys are so active in so into everything. And yeah, they're great. I just let them go to the point where I don't feel comfortable. It's like, yeah, I figure. If they think they can do it, they probably can. And if they're willing to give it a go, that probably means it will go okay. Yeah. And if they don't know, then like, I think where I draw the line is like, how they treat other people. So I think that stuff I try to come down fairly firm on. And sort of, yeah, treating other people with respect to being kind and all of that, but like in terms of everything else. Just go for it. We've met a few broken out. That's quite a lot, isn't it? Yeah. The Rite of Passage. Yeah, so I wanted to, I wanted to ask you, back in the beginning, we talked, you mentioned a little bit about how art and science used to be really close together. And you mentioned a little bit in your email that you'd send to me, and it really got me thinking, at what point did these two sort of practices for one of a better word start to go away from each other? You know what I mean? Because you're right rennet. The Renaissance period was massively, massively science, all of that. Yeah, no thinking. And then art somewhere has just floated off into this thing. That's, it's unnecessary for pretty much everything. Things need to be designed, like the designer of art, but then almost the I don't want to say the frivolous element of art, because it's not about probably seen like that, in terms of a capitalist society. So things sort of, yeah. What's your take on that? I think it's shocking that we don't fund it more like one of the sort of down point down. Down points for me, it was I don't know if it's last year, the year before when we started defunding, pure mathematics, and arts degrees and things because they don't have practical application. And as someone who is in the business of practical applications, I think that is the stupidest thing that we could do as a country. You know, our, our new ideas, the things we're going to be using in 30 years time come from people doing art, we're doing pure Mathematics or doing pure? You know, even studying history like these are these are things that, you know, don't have like a monetizable tangible outcome, yet they're absolutely critical, you know, yeah, they're so linked. The idea that universities have to beg industry to do research projects, because the only research projects that have value are ones that industry can use. I just, I just think it's disgusting. Into You know, we've, we are a country that has benefited off, you know, really strong science for such a long time. And then, I don't know, 2015 20 years ago, we started defunding it now with like, the lowest spend on research and development as a proportion of GDP in in the whole OECD, I think, you know, that is really short sighted to me, yeah, when it cut in. So that's just like the, that's just, you know, if you think about it as a spectrum from like, engineering, through mathematics, or applied mathematics, mathematics, and then you get to these humanities and art, like, you know, we're just, we're struggling in applied mathematics right now funding that. And to me, that's all wrong. In terms of, I think, you know, there are people who are mixing these together. And, but it feels more like a luxury than common place, you know, it might be like one artist in residence, might come in and do a few research projects or something like that, but it's not ever part of how we function so much. And I think that's a real shame. And I think it's going to bite us in the air soon. Maybe it already is. And I think art is really important for communicating, and exploring how we feel about things, I think that is responsible for, you know, going into the sort of imaginary world and dreaming up what things could look like. And if you can't dream up what they look like, how can you possibly make them? Yeah, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important. I used to I once had this workshop, a guy in, in our company was working with some city designers, and government, people who are in charge of designing cities. And he used to run these workshops for people. And on day two or three, he would put a creative writing piece up on the walls, like he would go home and write this story about the future of this city, from the perspective of a person, and then the whole exercise in the workshop would get these, you know, very pragmatic people to go and highlight the things in that story that kind of like, got them thinking. And then you know, and then the next the next part of it was like, Okay, well, what could we create today that would help us test whether that idea could exist? Now that whole exercise came from him being able to do some really, really beautiful creative writing that got people thinking, and so, yeah, to me, like, all of that is critical. And, you know, and yeah, just because it's not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have value. And you can argue that the case for so many other different things, like just because our ecosystem is not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have trillions of dollars of value in all of the things it does for us clean air, clean water, all of these, you know, safe climate to live in, you know, yet we devalue them because we can't monetize them straightaway. So I think that that's a real issue that we're going to have we're facing at the moment, and we're going to have to get our heads around, you know, the value of things that are intangible. Anyway, that's my rant on it. Ya know, I look honest, I don't know how to fix it. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Like it really frustrated? The hell out of me in COVID? And I know, you're probably in Victoria, you have a lot worse with the lock downs. And we did. But the thing that shocked me was that the sport kept going, like the all of the AFL footballers, could travel around Australia do what they want, but all of the arts like, at a very basic level, like I had gigs canceled, you know, and then you've got people like, more people traveling into state to do concerts, they couldn't do it. And then all sudden, you'd have 40,000 people at a football match. And I was like, What is going on? And Devin said to me, it's because it doesn't make as much money or you know, that's dumb, money stuff. But you look at this stuff that we look at the things that we identify ourselves as even as a culture like they're not, I mean, sport is a part of it, but it's there's a huge cultural value to these things. And even within the arts. Like I was listening to Richard Flanagan, the authors speak about the value of writing versus film. He's not saying that films would be de invested in, but he was just saying like, you know, Australian authors, like we have an enviable, enviable, you know, culture of writing here, which actually is a very, it sounded like it was a fairly new thing like Australia used to be looked at as like an outpost of British writing, right? Like, yeah, British authors will write, and then Australians will buy it. And then somewhere along the way, they started investing in Australian stories. And, you know, it's been remarkably successful, but we've had the any funding, and it's easier, just like, well, there's all these parts of the arts that are so critical to who we are and what we do. And I just, I think we've kind of like skewed over to this, like, you know, practical, which is great. I don't just obviously, I'm benefiting from it. But I just, it just makes me a little bit sad. And yeah, I sort of, yeah, remember this one? I had this friend at uni. Who's, who was? Who was talking to his dad? He was like, oh, yeah, I've got this friend Alex. And his dad was like, oh, yeah, what does she do? And he was like, A, she's studying engineering and commerce. And then his dad was like, oh, charming. And so my friend, my friend told me this, and I was like, super offended at the time, because like, today, you know, I'm doing all these great things. And then, as I've gotten older, I'm like, Oh, I get your point, like, things are not things are very practical things that are very useful, but like, what am I actually contributing to? Like, what am I really learning? Like, am I actually getting an education? Or am I just like, you know, learning how to get stuff done, which is a useful skill, but, you know, shouldn't be at the expense of people. You know, interpreting the world and thinking about how I'm, you know, telling stories and thinking about how things could be different imagining how things could be different, which is where I see, you know, arts or arts could be if they were funded better. Yeah, no, I totally agree with all that. It's just like, I think they cut the CSIRO. Like, they just was at the Liberal government that did that. I can't remember when it happened. Yeah, and I just think, oh, like you said, it's gonna bite us in the ass. And it might already be doing that. But there has to come a point where all of a sudden, they go off sheet. We've stuffed this up like, yeah, and this obsession with everything happening, like you said, the money, the monetization, if you can't make money out of it. It just diminishes the value of it so much. And that really, is something that really annoys me. Yeah, but I mean, I guess like the consolation is at the community level, people still love it. Like, I mean, you remember the first gig you played when you got back? Right? Where people crying, you know, like, I think, you know, it's pretty overwhelming and even even after you know, log, it's been what, a year and a half since lockdowns here. And anytime I see live music, I'm still super emotional about it. And everyone is. So I think at the community level, like people get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, I guess it's easy to get down about I'm not in that position. But yeah, yeah. I just don't like the way that you write about, like, people. It's the people in front of you that make the difference. And then the people that make the rules and tell everyone what to do, especially with all that locked down stuff, it's like it just shows you what they think of it. And it's like, even the people that aren't the performers, you know, the people that were allowed to dance but a just like everyone was frustrated at how this whole industry was being judged. I don't know just anyway, I gotta stop. No, no, I can I can unless. With when you were growing up, did you have like your mum, your mum, sort of these cultural norms that are like to sort of look at about where you learnt your stuff. I suppose you have talked about how you mum, you know that pragmatic nature to sort of? Yes, yeah, that's fine. Oh, no, that's not did she work? Like after she had you or anything like that? To sort of show you how you could do it? I guess. Yeah. Probably not at the time you realizing that, you know, you weren't taking note, but you know what I? Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I was I was I had a mom and dad. So dad is a scientist. And so he's The opposite, right? It's super intellectual, very slow pace, slow thinking, precise, like, wants to get to the bottom of everything analytical. And mom is like, on the other end of the spectrum, like, get it done, get it done quickly. 8080 20 rule, like, just come on, you know. So the balance of those, you know, I sort of feel like it's almost a superpower. Like, who am I going to channel today? Like mom or dad? Because both of them are, you know, right for the moment. Hmm. Um, so in terms of like the family balance, I guess. It like on the surface, I guess it would seem very traditional dad worked a full time job. He was like the primary breadwinner. Mum is a physio and she worked locum jobs. So she just only it was kind of like being a replacement teacher equivalent. But she was a physio. And it was with the same group every time, she was really good friends with all the people she worked with. And if someone you know, someone went away for a holiday, or whatever, she might cover them for a couple of weeks. And she actually was kind of working full time. But doing loads of work. Yeah. And what it meant. And what I've learned since is that it allowed her to like, it allowed her to work, but not be emotionally involved in it. So she loved it. She loved helping people. She loved working with those people. And then but she had no like, she didn't have to do paperwork. She didn't have to do admin, she didn't have any politics. She had no commitment. It was just like all the good parts. And I think I remember thinking like, how could you do you know, like, don't you want to like sink your teeth in a bit more. And now I'm like, Oh, I get it. This is awesome. That is fantastic. So I think that's sort of how she made that work. Whereas dad was much more like, you know, I'm, I'm here working in this job. And, you know, he loved I think he loved the job, but there was much more sort of obligation and doing the right thing and Yeah, sort of a more balanced like, you know, slog slog like, yeah, yeah, I know, he loved his work and like the the work that he was doing, and the people that he worked with, and all the rest, but it was definitely much more like, I'm going to plod through here and this is you know, I need to do this and yeah, so I think, yeah, they were different. And in terms of home life, like mum basically just made everything happen. So, you know, dad's job was pretty full on. So he, he was working and then, you know, mum looked after us. You know, all the extracurricular stuff. Got us for school organized. All it just everything for mental load. Yeah. So yeah, but I think I learned a lot from them. They had a very even sort of even decision making it home so that, you know, the power dynamic was very even. You know, I think, especially when it came to discipline. Yeah, it was it was quite even there as well. I don't know. You only kind of like, Yeah, I think they did a remarkable job. I'm grateful that I was born into the family. Yeah, can't really can't really take too much. I was lucky. Yeah. Sounds very balanced. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't perfect. No family is perfect. Like, we definitely have our flaws. I'm sure if you spoke to my husband. He really thinks I think, you know, our two families are quite different. We're definitely more argumentative. We, but it's not like a mean, argumentative. It's just a question like, What do you think about this? So you're wrong? This is how it should be that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, strong families are the way which is very lucky thing to have, I think. Yeah, that's for sure. That sounds lovely. You made the argument. My husband and I, we like to debate topics. Yes, we come from very different headspace and backgrounds. He's a financial planner. And yeah, I don't like maths at all. And we have different views when it comes to politics. So we'll often be having discussions and the little one will say, Stop arguing. And we'll both be like, but we're not talking about this and I'm getting passionate about. Yeah, yeah. So and I think that that's kind of like it's sort of like a, you know, you're not you're not gonna get in trouble. Yeah. Sometimes I find you need to sort of argue things out to understand what you think yourself as well. And so I'd agree with that. It's nice to have that space. Yeah. Less, you're less and less able to do that in public. Oh, or you basically get shut down for a while and I offending someone or saying the wrong thing or something. So yeah, you do need those safe spaces to debate things and to, to thrash out ideas and, and like my eldest child, he's 50, nearly 15. So he's asking some interesting questions and you want to be able to feel like you can ask them. You know, like I said before, you hope that your child does come to you. And he certainly comes to us with interesting things. And we're like, Yep, okay, we can talk about that, you know. It's good. I quite enjoy a conversation like that. I enjoy conversation. Can you share with us the website? Or any socials that you active on that you? Oh, yeah, sure. So, yeah, so milkdrop pumps.com. And in the new year, we'll be running a campaign. You know, I mentioned a couple times about how there's not a lot of research in women's health, or not as much as they could be. And one of the things there's not much research on is women's nipple anatomy, and lactating or otherwise. And that's a real problem, because it means when you're trying to figure out how to design products for women, you actually don't have the basics available. A lot of research on women's nipples is older research that was about nipple attractiveness. Where should the nipple be placed on the breast? How big should it be? What shape should it be? That kind of thing. Some of that was used for cosmetic surgery, some of it was used for breast reconstruction. And then, the other area of nipple research is for social media, identifying female versus male nipples to take down the female nipples, because it's illegal to post them not illegal, but against, you know, Getty policy to show a female nipple, which we could go into another podcast about that. And so what we're trying to do is ask women to measure their nipples to help us build up an understanding of what women's bodies actually look like, so that we can design things for actual women. So we've got our campaign on that. Coming up, in the New Years, watch out for that. Be on Instagram at milkdrop, underscore pumps, or tick tock, ah, your tick, DECA. I still haven't gone there. I feel like it's too much of a big rabbit hole for me to go down. It's pretty full on news. And I'll put hyperlinks in the show notes so people can find you. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been so lovely to chat with you and to you to your achievements. And thank you for for thanks for having me. I feel like a bit of an interloper in the in the art world. But who? Artists, hopefully Yeah, to hear from someone who appreciates it, but doesn't do it. No look, and I think that the things that you've shared are extremely relevant. So please don't feel like you're, you know, I don't know what the word is. But you're not. You're not and you know, you, you've seen it, you've created something amazing. I'm really, really happy that you did it. And I'm really happy for you for what you've done to say. Good on you. And stop blabbing now to say thanks very much. Okay. Awesome. All right. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parent called Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Sami Lange US mixed media paper artist S2 Ep31 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sami Lange is a mixed media paper artist living and working in Phoenix, Arizona, and she's mum of 2 children. Sami grew up in a creative home, and sees art and creativity as a fully incorporated part of family life, with her children having access to her studio. Her paper artwork is made of hundreds and sometimes thousands of paper circles and shapes stitched together. Each shape is hand-cut by Sami with scissors, dyed multiple times in water baths, and then dried, taped and stitched. Sami has worked with paper dyeing for over 14 years. She has also done furniture painting, drawing, collage and print making. After an evacuation of her hometown of Santa Rosa, California in 2017, Sami's family was blessed to have their home spared after the Tubbs fire swept through the city and burned down over 5,000 homes. This life changing event forced Sami to re-evaluate her art practice, reflect on what is truly important and what makes a thoughtful piece of art worth making. **This episode contains discussions about post natal depression and anxiety** Visit Samis website - https://www.samilangeart.com/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/samilangeart/ Frogmans http://frogmans.net/ Shop the art supplies Sami uses here Connect with the podcast - https://www.instagram.com/art_of_being_a_mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Semi Lang semi is a mixed media paper artist living and working in Phoenix, Arizona, and she's a mom of two children. Semi grew up in a creative home and sees art and creativity as a fully incorporated part of family life, with her children having access to her studio. Her paper artwork is made of hundreds and sometimes 1000s of paper circles and shapes stitched together. Each shape is hand cut by Sammy with scissors died multiple times in waterbirds. And then dried, taped and stitched Sammy has worked with paper dyeing for over 14 years. She's also done furniture painting, drawing, collage and printmaking. After an evacuation of our hometown of Santa Rosa, California in 2017 semis family was blessed to have their home spared after the Tubbs fire swept through the city, and burned down over 5000 homes. This life changing event for Sammy to reevaluate her art practice, reflect on what is truly important. And what makes a thoughtful piece of art worth making. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression and anxiety. Thank you so much for doing this. So it's just lovely to meet you and to have you on so much for having me. I'm so excited. So you're in Phoenix, Arizona. So what's it like there at the moment? Is it is it cold and snowing or anything? Live it? So Gloria, so in Phoenix, it doesn't usually snow, I mean, not really a couple hours north it will. But here it's about 65 degrees in January, that's about 18 degrees Celsius. And it's just so glorious. It's basically the perfect time and weather. We've only lived here for about a year and a half, we essentially moved the day everything shut down when the pandemic started. That's when we moved out of state. Yeah, so it was a little bit of a wild ride. And it was very, very hot, like 120 degrees for what felt like two straight months, and that's about 48 degrees Celsius. But they always joke that the whole state is air conditioned. And you know, it was a little bit better this last summer. So we transitioned really well now, I think. So where were you before? Where did you move from? We were in Northern California, and I was there for close to 20 years. So as a little bit of a change of pace, but the fires hit where we were at. And so we just we kept having to evacuate. And we knew a lot of people that were losing their houses, and we just eventually decided that we really couldn't raise our kids there. You know, we just we just was really stressful. And so I was actually a tenured librarian there. And I decided, okay, I'm giving up tenure, we're just going to start over, we'll just do whatever. And so we put our house on the market even before I had a job. And then thankfully, everything worked out because then the pandemic hit, and then the job almost didn't come through. And so it was a little wild there for a while, but we're settled. And, you know, we're grateful that we've kind of had, you know, as much luck as we've had, but I mean, you know, it's been rough for all moms everywhere. Oh, yeah, goodness. Yeah, that sounds really scary. The fire's like, we've got like, we get quite a lot of bushfires here in Australia, so I can appreciate what you say. I've never been in that position personally, but I'd certainly understand what you're saying. We had to evacuate. We actually chose to be one day and then that afternoon all of the police came around our neighborhood and told everyone to get out. Well, there was one night where we were we were thinking about if we wanted to or if our home was going to burn down we didn't know and And we're kind of reflecting like what choices we wish we'd made. You know, that was 2017. So was the Tubbs fire. So I had a lot of friends and colleagues lose their homes in that fire and it just sort of hit randomly. Yeah, I remember that night thinking about the studio and thinking about my work and be like, well, that's okay. If we lose everything, you know, that's fine. We're safe, which of course, that's, you know, the truth. And then we got back and it just was this very surreal experience. There was ash everywhere, you know, and then I went into the studio, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, it made me question everything. And of course, the whole community was in trauma, and then it just kept happening. You know, it just kept like, every year we would evacuate and then someone else we knew would lose their house. And it was a really stressful way to live. I don't know how people do that year after year, and it dangerous things like that. So you are a paper artist, I've never chatted to anybody that does your kind of art. So this is cool. Can you tell me about what you do in the process and all that kind of stuff? I would love to and I it's so funny. I have such a hard time deciding what to call myself. Occasionally, when I'll send out emails, it'll say simulating paper artists. And then next week, I'll send you mixed media, paper artists. And then I'll say print maker and mixed media artists. You know, it's just, I mean, when I think of paper artists, I don't think of my work, but I'm making work out of paper. So I'm actually a printmaker, which is kind of where the mixed media piece comes in. I I consider myself conceptually a print maker by trade. And that was what my BFA was in. That's what I went to school for. And about 15 years ago, I did some assistantships at print and press workshop called Frog man's in the US. And it's this amazing workshop. And it lasts for two weeks. And I had gotten an assistantship for three weeks. And so you go and then you kind of help run a class. Yeah, so I had been in a class with an artist, Tim high. And he does these amazing screen prints. And what's so interesting is he basically takes like a wood stipple. So it's kind of as almost a sharp as like a very sharp pencil point. And he'll block out the parts. And he basically stippled an entire scene in a gradation gradient of screen printing, which is just insane from a technical standpoint. But he would start that by dyeing the paper, which I loved, because it's like, instead of being a white printmaking paper, you just went to pastel yellow, or you just went to PDH, or, you know, and he would kind of just let the process flow. And so that was the first introduction, I got to the paper, dyeing it all. And then I sort of like did that, you know, it sort of became this tool that I would use for, I guess, about 11 years, but I kind of didn't know what to do with it. You know, it's like I do a painting. And then there would be this cut shape that I like, glued on the painting. And then I finished me like, okay, but like, why is that glued piece of paper? They're like, what is? Yeah, and so then I then we had the fires. And then I had that night where I thought, gosh, you know, what happens if the studio burns down? That would be okay, so then when I got back, I just had this sensation of thinking, Okay, well, if I was okay with it burning down, then like, what are we doing? You know, at that point, I've been an artist professionally for about 13 years, but I was working in education full time. So it's always on the side. And I just, I thought, Okay, well, maybe this isn't me, it was sort of the first time that I'd ever questioned if I was an artist, or if that was my identity or anything like that. Yeah. And so I took a break, I took like a three month break. And that was the biggest, that was probably the only break I can think of in my entire life of not making art. Yeah. And then I've always had a home studio. And so I did at the time, my kids were really little, they were like two and three. And so we had a baby gate up on that studio, which was a room and I would just I would walk by like 30 times a day because I was always chasing them. And then one day, I saw a little circle that was on the ground. And it's like something clicked and I thought, oh my gosh, the work is the paper like stop putting in a drawing, stop putting in a print, stop putting it on painting, stop doing it. It's just the paper. And so it sort of was this avalanche of creating what I call the paper quilts. I don't really know what to call them but they're basically hundreds and sometimes 1000s of cut paper that I hand cut with scissors, and then I dye them 123 times in water baths I'm just using die in like jars with the shapes put in them and then I dry them. Thankfully in Arizona they dry really quickly. And then I tape them down and then stitch them and so they just kind of become On this piece that's created from, you know, white printmaking paper to start. So that's an incredibly intense, like labor labor intensive process, that's incredible. When it comes to like, choosing your colors, is it just a really intuitive thing, like when you're mixing up your dyes, it's a really intuitive thing. I, sometimes I wish I was a more organized, you know, methodical color picker, sometimes I have this vision that I'm going to make all of these color formulas and have this book and I go through it and I, but it never works. That way, there's something that's so that is so out of my control when I do the water bath. And I feel like the process in general is so controlled, that it's this way that forces me to not have control. And so I need to keep that incorporated. And there will be sometimes I mean, I kind of learned my lesson repeatedly with this because sometimes I'll do you know, a light read or kind of a reddish orange. And then I'll do maybe a deep dark blue purple dye, I don't think this will be so beautiful. And then it comes out and it's basically mud. It's like they died over each other and it looks horrible. And it's like, oh, well, they're just hand cut 100 circles, and then I killed them and that way around. Like, I know that. But there's something kind of exhilarating even though this is not a big risk. It's like this small risk way to have fun. And so because the process and the cutting and the dying is just so a part of our daily lives, I always have a home studio. So it's always like there's something in the die pads or something that I'm cutting. I think when I didn't, didn't do as well, with my time when I was younger in the studio, that would have bothered me. But now I just sort of embrace all the failures. It's almost like I'm trying to fail a lot. Because when I, when I feel big, sometimes I fail forward. And so that really helps my practice. And so even though the work is really tight, there's a ton of play, which is refreshing and you know, uplifting. So, yeah, absolutely. I love that. So does that challenge you like your own thinking then? Like, is that been a process for you to work through of accepting? When things don't work? It's okay, that sort of stuff. Yeah, I think I've had to do that for like seven straight years. I feel like my my youngest is, or my oldest is seven. And I feel like this idea I had, what being an adult was is hysterical. I look back to being a kid and thinking, oh, when you're an adult, you can choose everything. I feel like, you know, I had really bad postpartum depression after my kids were born. And so that was a real shocker. And that lasted for several years. And then kind of right when I sort of came out of that in the fog it cleared and I was feeling good, then the fires hit, then that lasted for like four years, then we you know, we transitioned to an out of state move, I gave up a job that I thought I would basically have my whole career and then a global pandemic hits. So it's like seven years of this like straight sort of, you never know what you're gonna get. And I would say in the past couple of months, it's been sort of exhilarating because I'm just like, Okay, we never know what we're gonna get let's just go for broke in the studio you know, it's like this safe space to just go why Oh, yeah, it's almost like it's just it gives this giving you permission just to just to just take the pressure off and have no expectations because you know, the unknown is there and it could happen at any moment. So it's like well, okay, let's just go for it. Go for hot pink in the water bath. So you've always been a creative person, like as a child and growing up you've always been making? Yeah, I would say it's a it's a serious core identity. I think I mean Some of my earliest memories were like looking at art books. My mom was primarily a stay at home mom. But until I was seven, she was a graphic designer. So some of my earliest memories are going with her. And I'm at the age and she's at the age where nothing was digital. So it was all storyboard. So like, I remember going into her work office and seeing all the transparent paper and the different layers taped down, you know, like, kind of the more old school graphic design. And so she was always doing art stuff with me, and she's more of a realist er. And then I got into I mean, I took art classes all the way up through high school, then I I was doing like furniture, painting and mosaics, I mean, just something always creative. And then college is really where a printmaking head, and I sort of happened into it accidentally, I didn't, I wasn't, I was not planning on being an art major. But then you go to college and things happen, and then I got a BFA so. I was gonna ask you about your children. So you briefly mentioned your oldest is seven. So how many children have you got? I've got two, I've got a girl that seven and a boy that six. Yeah, right. And they are yet the same age as yours. They're hysterical. It's a, I have to say someone told me years ago when mine were babies that these were sort of the golden years. And they were right. I mean, I just I absolutely love, I love that they can tell me what they want. I love that we're past potty training. I love that. They can hold a pencil and a paintbrush, like in a different way. You know, because we do a ton of creative time. I get up early before I go to my librarian job. And I'm in the studio every morning. And we just, I think, I think because I grew up with such a creative mom. And in such a creative household. I never sort of questioned that as, as how you live, you know, it's like, that was how we lived. And my dad worked full time in the government and then retired and became a teacher. And he was always writing, you know, it's like creativity was just the lifestyle. And so I never, I never had any other expectation of what I would be like and how I would raise my kids. And so and we didn't have kids right away. My husband and I, we waited like 10 years not not as a plan, just, that's when we decided we were ready. And you know, and so then I had always been art making. And so then my kids always made art with me. And I remember right before I got married with my husband, we were just talking about this the other day, and I said you remember, like the week before we got married, and we got married really young. I was 21. Or I thought that was young, because I freaked out. I'm like, we're too young. I'm like, This is crazy. We should do this, what are we thinking? And then I said, you know, I just I need to tell you, I'm never going to make less art. I said, I'm not going to get married to you and you know, clean or something like that. I was like, I just need you to know, this is who I am. And you guys I know, this is who you are like, we're good. You know, and granted, I will occasionally clean now. I did go back on that. But but as far as the studio time, it has never changed, you know, and so even when they were babies, it's like they were painting with me and they were in the studio and I've always had a home studio, which I have to say is really really important. I mean, that's just a total game changer. And so there's always we've always had a room that's been my studio, the dedicated space and that it's just super important. You know, we were talking about how you have all your kids artwork. I have drawers in my flat files that are theirs. It's like they know that those are their drawers and there's their paper and there's their work and you know, so it's just kind of how we live I guess which makes it possible to make the work and also work so I'm grateful for that so you get up early, you do some in the morning. Do you do do you then go back to it at night? I do. i i This is so I have this funny story. And it has to do with me wearing a bikini to work, and it will, like we're going on a tangent, but really, it's going to come back, if I can remember to get us back, it's gonna come back. So Right. So right after my son was born as a college librarian, you do a lot of teaching. And so I had gone back, and I had both my kids at my last job when I was on the tenure track. So I had, you know, I was trying to get tenure, I was teaching or student observations. And I was teaching a class and I was wearing, I remember this beautiful blue linen dress, it was so beautiful. And underneath that I was wearing a bikini, because I had just returned to work. And I had not done laundry. And so I remember be teaching in this class, and like, you know, pointing to something on the screen. And in my mind, I'm thinking about this bikini that I'm wearing, and the fact that I have no backup bikini. And it's not like it was a bikini that fit. It was like the pre pregnancy bikini. So it's like, dire, you know, and so I'm, I'm like, Okay, what should I do? I had to stay late teaching that I'm like, should I go to Target and buy a backup backup bikini, or should I, like I because I didn't have time to do laundry, like, forget that they were the kids are gonna be up all night. At that point, my son was five months old. And my daughter was 19 months. Yeah. And I was like trying to, you know, teach and all this stuff. So then as I'm trying to teach this class, I'm like, You know what, clearly, this isn't working. Like you need to figure out a way to change your schedule, cut stuff out, do whatever it takes, so that you're not thinking about backup bikini is like is your emergency work plan. And so I ended up just getting totally into productivity research, and like trying all these different time hacks and all this stuff. It got to such a point that then I started talking about it so much at work that then one of my supervisors was like, Could you start doing some productivity trainings, then I started making videos and classes and like kind of creating these mini cohorts. And so then I started doing all these very enjoyable, small groups about productivity and how we think about our energy and what choices we make. And that how much time and energy our decisions take us and cognitive load, and like, and all that stuff. And so that kind of helped me reset everything after my kids were born. So I started just really focusing on the art making, as opposed to worrying about this idea that the dishes had to be done, or this idea that like, there was one year where one of my strategies was, I thought, I don't need matching socks, who cares if I have matching socks, so I stopped doing all map all socks hurting, like, you know, but then I realized I'm like, You know what people actually can see your socks. Like, maybe that's not the strategy that you want to do, you know, like, a snowflake sock. And like, you know, like, so. So anyways, I tried a whole bunch of stuff. And I ended up cutting a whole bunch of things out. And then kind of over the last year, I realized that I had gotten really, really good about managing the time so that I could have studio time and Eve, like in the morning and night. But then I realized I was tired at night. And I was like, alright, well, what's the deal, like, You got everything down, you need to get down and you have this time. So what's the block and so then I just sort of started paying more attention to my energy. You know, like, when we're at the park, normally I'm, you know, talking to the kids and engaging with the kids and, and then I started taking more photos, there's some really beautiful photos on my camera, things like bark, you know, things that are kind of make, they're the textures, and colors and stuff that will eventually make themselves, you know, back into the studio and back into my water baths and things like that. And so it just sort of started checking in a little bit more about how I was feeling and how my energy was, which one makes me a lot more patient. And two, I feel like then it gives me that little push so that when the kids are asleep, then I can go in and do like 30 minutes in the studio and listen to a podcast or, you know, Pandora or like just a little music, and then I can go to bed. And then when I get up early, I'm ready to roll. You know, like that early time with coffee in the studio. That's probably my favorite time of day. Aside from the hysterical jokes and questions were like, I don't know how to answer that. And I know you're six. But I don't know how to answer that was like constant skill testing as a parent, like, what's the answer here? When when Diggs asked me he asked me really wacky question the other day, and I had I could not think of a thing and I said, Well, what do you think? Because I just thought, I cannot think of anything to say, Hey, this is ridiculous. And then he came out with this great big, long winded explanation. Excellent. That sounds good on you. So we're going to use that strategy. My daughter asked me last week, how was man created? She gets one question at bedtime. And I'm like, um, what was your other question? Oh, you know, using your strategy. It's dates, definitely. Because then the main probably bedtimes not the greatest time for it because it gets them thinking again, but Why is that at bedtime? All these questions come out? It's like I wrote this ridiculous Facebook post years ago. And I don't know how I can remember exactly what it was now but Digby asked, How do you make bricks? What is this thing happened where the colors come from? He clearly thought of the language why do we talk in this accent? All this stuff just one after the other understanding going tomorrow we'll do this tomorrow so I'm guessing the the, the key dyes and stuff that you use then like non toxic and stuff like were you able to keep keep doing that while you were pregnant? Like there was no sort of worry there. So I use red dye, you know that really, really common dye that you can find with fabric and at all the craft stores and, and I've used both powder and liquid but right now I primarily use liquid. And as a printmaker, you know, I just threw down the hours in the studio, I mean, I would go to the shop and be there for like 12 hours, and I would leave with these horrible migraines. And so when I graduated college, I just decided I wanted a totally non toxic studio. So after college, I transitioned to essentially everything non toxic, non toxic print inks, acrylic paint, you know, so, and that was kind of part of the plan with having a home studio was that I wanted everything to just be comfortable. And so I've never fortunately had to transition any of the materials when I was pregnant, I could just use everything. Yeah, so that's been really, really helpful. Just having the kids around, and they use all my supplies. I ran into a photo the other day, my son when he was two, and he had, you know, those little edges, sketch those magnetic things gone. So he was too and he hadn't shirt off. And he was so proudly holding up on his little belly, that I just sketch with, like some circles cut on it. And at the time, I was excluded or drawn on it. I was exclusively doing circles. So he was like, so proud that he had his circle. And then I started finding and we got them into looking back, probably they were really little we got them into using kid scissors really young. Yeah. And so I would find these really jagged edges, like circle square shaped things in with my servers. I'm like, Oh, he was contributing to my pile, like he got on scissors. And so it's nice, because they just think they make merit. And sometimes I'll find these piles of glue and circles. And they're mine on like, something I'm like I didn't make has been in here stealing my materials. But it's pretty, that's beautiful. Isn't it like that, obviously, it's, you know, they see it, and it's made such an impact on them and that they want to they're a part of it, you know, that's their way of being a part of it. And that's lovely that they're welcomed into that space that they they can be there. And it's not like oh, you have to stay out because it's either it's not safe, or I don't want you to touch or whatever. Like it. That's lovely. It's such a beautiful environment. They're like little human bodies of glue. It's like wherever you go. They go. Attached to I had a funny conversation with my daughter the other day. We have, I have these rules. Like one rule is don't talk to mom while she's in the bathroom. So that's to me, like even if I don't need to go the bathroom. That's a safe space. So I was walking to the bathroom. I've I like announced I put my arms up and they go, I'm going to the bathroom. My arms are up. I'm like announcing to the household. And I'm walking and she's finally and I'm walking and I go I'm going to the bathroom. She's following still talking. I go I'm going to the bathroom and she goes, Yes. And she stops and she kind of puts her finger up and she goes, but you're not in the bathroom. And I go you know what? You're ready. You are so right. Okay, what do you need so that I can go to the bathroom? Oh my gosh, it was so hysterical. That's gold and not bad. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. So if you don't mind would Is it okay if we talk a little bit bit about your postpartum depression? Is that okay? Talk? Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely relate, I had had it bad with the first one, but super bad with the second one. So. So did you did you find at that point that you are either ramped up or sort of went the other way and decreased? How did that sort of impact? Ya? know, I've always been pretty consistent with the practice, I think, I honestly don't even remember. I mean, that was such a dark time, but I probably leaned into it more at that, at that time, I wasn't doing the paper quotes, I was still doing a lot of drawing and a lot of hand printed printmaking. I do remember because I had kind of tried everything for the postpartum depression, you know, it's like, everything that you were supposed to do, I just, I feel like I was in a hole. And I was like, trying to climb out of it. And, I mean, I did the journaling, and I did the exercise, and I get I got a therapist, and I, you know, I did the art and I did the walking like, I just, I tried everything and, and for me, I just kind of had to wait it out. You know, it's like, I did everything so long, and so consistently, and then one day, the fog just sort of cleared. But it wasn't like a switch, it just was like, gradually, eventually, everything sort of worked. And I had a therapist at the time. And I use this a lot. So my work is so much about color, you know, it's so much about color, and emotion and color really brings out, you know, feelings. And so she would say to me sometimes she said, we'll just sit there, you know, because we would talk about my art. And she would say what color are you? You know, and I would have to think about well, what color do I feel like? Am I read on my, you know, what color do I want to be? And so I started meditating a lot at that time, too. That was one of the strategies. And so then when the fires hit, and we came back, and everything switched to the paper quilts, I used a lot of the quilting as meditations, you know. And so a lot of those blues and most common greens, that was kind of what I hit first, because it's like, I just needed the space to sort of watch my community heal, to see what was gonna happen, you know, was such a shock. So I, I really did make a lot of art, but not necessarily that much different. I've just been this massive producer, I used to try and recycle everything because I used to make a lot of really ugly, like a really hideous work. I mean, I didn't like it, but it was like I was trying to get to something. And so I'm finally at the place where I'm making what I want to make. But I mean, it was like, it was like 12 years of just junk. And I would put it in the recycling bin and I would like tear it off and throw on the trash. Like that was nice when I transitioned to non toxic because I feel like I could recycle more stuff. But, you know, it was a real push there. And I just kind of had to wait it out. Yeah. Good on you. You obviously had a lot of support that time. Yeah. Husband helping out a lot. Yeah, I'm an only child. And my parents were, you know, in really close with them. When we moved from California to Arizona, we actually said that I'm like, Are you coming? Because you know, we kind of need you to come like are you going to come in. So now and they came. They're now neighbors. So they knew Yeah, it's just amazing. And so they knew what was going on. And I had some really close friends that knew what was going on. And then my husband, I kind of hit the jackpot. And he's the Marriage and Family Therapist. So he like kind of had this language, you know, there's a sort of a therapist language that he has never he can help me identify things or talk to things and, and you know, therapy is actually really hard. I mean, therapy is really charged to especially if you're going through something like postpartum depression. And it's funny, but like, I basically found the therapist that I needed to help me through that time. And it was so hard that she was just an amazing person. But I think sometimes people need therapy and they try a therapist, and then it's not the therapist, they should do it. So then they think therapy doesn't work. Yes, I'm grateful that I had a husband who could be like, well, you need support. And so why don't you find a therapist, but then if you don't like that person, keep looking. And so even that is a simple idea. I have no I had never heard of that. I would have never known that. You know and so, so I kind of had everything going for me as far as like the support network, which I'm super grateful for. Yeah, it's hard. Like transitioning from motherhood and having postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. It's hard. Yep, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Talking about that transition, like, did your identity or how you saw yourself did that sort of go through some some adjustment, then as well, I think mine was more of an adjustment that I will not be able to plan myself into a relaxed life. It's like I'm such a planner, in life in general, and I am one of the most efficient people. And so it's sort of like, well take that really nice attractive schedule to do you write that up, you throw it up in the air, and you see what lands a chair, and then that's what you're going to do that. So I think just that idea of being flexible, and now I've, I would say I'm very comfortable with it. I also think that now that my kids are a little bit older, and now that, you know, we do so much creative stuff that actually really helps a lot. There was so much diaper changing and breastfeeding and like, oh my gosh, what am I supposed to do with that? Oh, my gosh, what do I do with the crying or that this or that getting up, or those sort of walking zombie exhaustion in those early years. And my kids are so close that it was like, we had an under two for three straight years. I mean, they're 13 months apart. And so just the sleep deprivation, it was like a free for all, you know, it was just like, What day is it? Yeah. So I've really acclimated. And I've really, they're really good sleepers. Now, I kind of have one night owl and one early bird, which is okay. Because there's like a solid time in there to sleep. So I think just my idea of getting stuff done how to transition. But as far as the creative part, or, you know, I kind of never lost that part of the identity that just sort of carried through with me, yeah. One of the topics I really like talking about is mum guilt. And I'm going to I'm guessing that it's sort of, from who other people have talked to you from America, that it's something that's quite universal? Is that something you've ever experienced? Or sort of? What's your opinion on that? I love this question. And the reason I love it is because of course I listen to your podcast, and there's a couple artists and creatives that you've had on that say they don't have it. And then Mike, Ooh, what's that, like? Triumph on that idea. And I think no, can't even can't even put it on. It's like a try. And I just, I feel like I could sprinkle mom guilt across the world. And that's leftover like. So then after, after I hear all these other people say that they don't have it. I'm like, Okay, well, what is mom guilt to me? You know, because then it's like, kind of this really interesting question of like, well, what is that mean? And? And then when do I have it, and I never have it with the creative stuff. I think it comes back to you know, when I talked about sort of the core identity of being a creative and like, this is a lifestyle, instead of a choice. Yeah. And so I think where I have had the most trouble with mom guilt is, I feel like I always want to look at each individual kid, and try and make the best choice for that kid, you know, and in the pandemic, I feel like there were no good choices. You know, it's like we wanted to pod we moved here, one to get away from the bears, but to also to be with my grandparents and family. And, you know, we chose to pod with them during the podcast. Until then that meant online school. And we didn't want to do zoom school because we didn't think that would work for our kids. So then we didn't you know, so it's like you, you pick, you keep picking the best choice of all these choices you just don't want and so then we ended up homeschooling my six year old son in kindergarten, you know, it's like, it just gets to this point where you're like, Well, how did we get here? And it's sort of, I think that's where my mom guilt goes up, like, Okay, I want us to eat healthy, but I, I don't want to argue about this cookie or you know, it's like just those little things that then by the end of the day, you're tired. And so I'm always trying to tell myself well, that's okay. Because you're gonna refresh at night like get back, good sleep if you can, and then just start over and start fresh. So the module is more about just trying to look at every like, look at every like I have, like 10 look at each one of my kids. And just try and do the best by them. Yeah, if I had more or a dog, heaven forbid, like, I'm, I'm working on it to do. Yeah, I actually thought when I, when we talked, when I was leading up to ask the question, I thought to myself, I don't think you're gonna have any guilt related to your artwork, just because it's part of your life, your children are included in it. You're not doing your art at the detriment of anybody else. So I knew that was coming. Yeah. So it's so funny, you knew that because I had to process it. I was like, What would my answer be to this? Because in my mind, I'm like I've done so long ago. But then when I started noticing what it was, it was really those small individual things, you know, that just add up, and then you feel this collective weight? Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting, you say about, you know, resetting the next day. But this is, this is the same sort of topic that came up with another lady that I interviewed just the other day, and was saying the same thing. It's like, you when the kids were little, you always knew the sun would rise. And you could start again, and see what happens if you just wipe the slate clean and start again, the next day, and then you felt like you were doing that every day. You know, there's always hope, because you can have that time to reset and then off, you go again. Or there's a locked door to our chocolate, like whatever it takes. I'm here and yet. So have you got some projects that you're working on at the moment that anything in particular that you want to share with us about that up? Yeah, I have a magazine article that I'm working on. So I'm working on a feature article for women's artists magazine, which I'm super excited about. I just got invited last week to a local show, which I'm super excited about in Chandler, Arizona. And then last year, in the last quarter, I just got invited to practical art, which is this absolutely amazing and really neat community of artists. And it's like a gallery and a little art shop in Phoenix, Arizona, and they just love them. It's about 100 local artists. And so now I'm one of their artisans that's featured at their shop, and they're open, which is nice. And so they have like gallery exhibits all the time and sort of like wearable, livable art. So yeah. Oh, that's psycho. So you're very active in your, like, your local community with your art, getting it out there. And, yeah, I'm really trying to be you know, it was odd moving in a pandemic, and then trying to build an in person community. So we kind of, but now I feel like you know, we're almost two years and I am back physically in work at my library and job, which is just glorious. It's so nice to work with people in person. I've just been trying to make as many connections as I can in Arizona and in Phoenix, I want to start going to shows and, you know, just really trying to connect with this art community, it makes such a difference. As an artist, being a member of a community. It's so inspiring studio time can be really lonely, even if you've got kids in there. And you know, it's like, even if you have a ton of ideas, it's just so nice to see other people's work and their creative energy and support them too. So I'm looking forward to doing that more. Yes, thanks. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, someone else I spoke to talk to about how their art changes when they do when they're not in isolation, like when you're around other people. And even if you're not doing the same style of art, you can sort of feed off each other and someone might make a comment about your piece. And it's like, you can take it in another direction that you never thought of, you know, having a fresh pair of eyes look at it or someone that has no understanding of your what you do that, you know, it's can be really good thing. So 100% agree and a lot of my pushes have been based on just sort of one side comment or one observation and right now my stuff, I don't know where it's going, but it used to be behind the frame. And now it's out from behind the frame. And it's just sort of, you know, the open so you can see all the texture and nothing is protecting it. It's just hanging on the wall and then it sort of getting into these more sculptural pieces for the while and stitched in wood and so we'll see where it goes. We're still in experimental phase, but that was just kind of Based on one person's comment of how nice it was to see the texture, and sort of have more visual access to it, so it's always so interesting what creative juices are flowing from other people's comments and their minds. And yeah, absolutely, you put that very well. I couldn't find the words what I was trying to say. It's still early IV. It's not really bad. I'm, is it over there? Well, it's nearly 10 o'clock. But you know, it's early, let's do it. That's early. That first time that you saw that circle, and then you went into down that path? Is there anything you sort of find an imagery of the circle? Do you find yourself like, is there any deeper meaning in that, that circle for you? There initially was, you know, when I started doing the circles, when I started cutting the circles, it was only circles. I mean, it was only circles. And I was, in my mind, because I'm such a, I'm such a planner to the court was like, I'm going to cut circles for the rest of my life. And I will be a circle cutter. Like, I just, I go really deep in this stuff. Like, this is the plan. Yeah. And so, and I remember walking, I walk a lot with my dad. And I remember one day, he's like, Have you ever considered like, a square? And I stopped, and I looked at him, and I was like, why would I do that? Like, I cut circles. We have very funny conversations. And we're, he's a very enjoyable, and it's funny, because now I cut every shape, you know, it's like, I don't want to give him credit for that. But, you know, it's sort of like there was, there was something that was so meaningful about it never ending, you know, there was something that was very peaceful. And with all the meditation, when I first started doing all the circles and all the die, I had a totally silent studio. So I wouldn't listen to music, you know, it's like, I just used it as a full meditation. And so it's like, you could also because I was hand cutting these, and now the circles are really clean, you know, they're very circular. But when I started, I was making really bad circles, ovals. These, like lobby egg things, you know, it's like, it takes you a while to kind of clean up your, your free hand cutting. And so there was something that was so also freeing, where you could just keep editing, it's like, you just keep cutting that circle around and around and around until it looks like something that it should look like. And so I think that was really peaceful. And so it was just more sort of this personal process of meditation, and kind of getting, you know, back into the studio and back into making what I wanted to make. But there's not like a final symbol of it just being a circle. I mean, I know, there's a lot of, you know, like eternity symbols and like the circle of life and things like that, but not from a conceptual standpoint. And now I'm doing just all different shapes and trying out different dye techniques, and just sort of really experimenting with what imagery comes out. And the colors and the my palette is never consistent. I mean, it's like, it'll be hot pink and black, or you know, and I'm starting to incorporate a lot more of my printmaking. That's kind of the direction that I'm going and then doing a lot of hand printing now and then drawing the circles and then printing on top, and then taping and then stitching. And so just the processes the process, I guess that's lovely. It's quite freeing, isn't it just to be able to say, I'm going to do it this way? Or I'm going to do it that way. And that's probably probably you mean, you don't want to give the guy credit for it. But it's probably good that he said that, because it sort of gives you permission to say, well, this isn't what I'm going to do forever. I can fiddle around and and try different things and different techniques. So yeah, thanks. Thank you, Dan. So when it comes to retail, you've got all these these shapes, they're dyed, and they're ready to go. What's your sort of thinking or your process when it comes to laying them out deciding where they're going to, to lie on the paper. So there's a lot of decision, there's probably like 10 or 12 important decision points, but one of the most important is how big the final piece is going to be. Because because I don't use formulas. All the dyes are really specific. So it's like I'll die 400 things. And then okay, you have 400 things, so I didn't so I'm kind of thinking about how large I want that final piece to be before I ever even do it and then usually I'll make templates. You know, I'll cut out paper. I do a lot of drawing in my sketchbook that never makes it to Instagram because it's nothing that anybody wants to look at my guiding path and so I I kind of know all the shapes that are going to be and I Use color a lot just to think about the world. I, you know, I work in education. And sometimes education gets a little contentious people get really in, you know, rightly so about certain issues. And I've been in some very contentious meetings before and environments that are really stressful. And to try and sort of step back from some of that stress, I usually go to color. And so sometimes I'll just ask these not almost nonsensical questions of like, if that person was like, a blob of color, what would it be right now, you know, and so it's like, I'm constantly kind of drawing out these visuals or asking these questions are like relating things into shapes. And so some of that comes out into the work. Some of it is just that I'll be on a walk, and I'll see a visual or I'll see a gradation with, you know, a cactus, and then its variation with what's on the ground. And I'll take a picture of that. And then those are the two colors that end up in the work or the piece, and then part of that line, or that shape, or that feeling, then is the shape that shows up in the piece. So a lot of it is a reflection of what I'm seeing, and what photos that I'm taking or how I'm cropping things. Basically, I try and pull inspiration from everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I will say to that, even though I'm super intentional, there's always an element of surprise, because when you dye stuff, you're putting it in the full water bath. So there's always two sides. It's like, I might, you know, do a pink and around, but then I pulled the water back, I pulled it out really quickly for half of the batch, and I left it in overnight for the other half the batch. Even though the overall shape might have been a circle, what I end up with is like a really beautiful, soft brown and pink combo, and then like an almost black and pink combo. And so then I might decide when I'm laying it out, but then it's going to be striped. Yeah, it's sort of like I'm making a decision every single time even though I have the templates, and I have the overall colors. And those are fixed. Yeah, then I'm still doing a ton of experimentation. And then I actually take the back of it, flip it over, and then I obviously am stitching the top. Yeah. Ben from the top. So what sort of material do you use to stitch with? Like, whoa, you know, I have a brand. Let me look, I think it's the Lisbeth I do used a lot of different threads. And I had a quite a bit of difficulty over the pandemic, finding some of the papers and threads that I was using, like with production delays and stuff. So I ended up switching to Lisbeth thread, which I pretty much only use now it's, this will sound funny, but it's actually super important. They, they treat it in a way I think it's something called gasps injure, it's some process that they do that makes the thread rounder. So when I'm stitching with it, you know how sometimes of embroidery thread when you stitch it on paper or wood or something and you stretch it out. It's sort of like it lays flat. I know that that's a very detailed observation. But I need it to be round, because the mark making is important. I choose the colors of the thread really carefully. If I don't have a color of thread, then I die. I individually hand die the thread. And so I want that crisp color. And it just needs to pop like that, because it's sort of like I'm drawing on the paper boats, but it happens to be with thread. And so that I'm I now just exclusively use that thread. Yeah, so you want it to sort of have that three dimension where it actually sits up a bit. It's not, it doesn't fade into the work, it's sort of up on top of it. So adds that texture as well. I just hope that people keep going, I think, you know, I think I struggled for so many years making such bad work for so long. Because I could have given up like at so many points. And I'm grateful that I did it because I I honestly feel like it took me 13 or 14 years to figure out the type of work that I wanted to make. And so sometimes I just I think people really have to be in it for the long haul and just sort of the eye on the prize is that you'll find your path whenever it decides to show up. And I'm so grateful that I kind of had the practice you know, the practice of just showing up to the studio and making really bad work for many many years. So that I could kind of come into this nice space you know, now like, not the physical space but just the emotional space with my kids. You know, now we can share it and now it's kind of this enjoyable thing. That and I just I'm so enjoying your podcast. So listen to other mothers like honestly It just being a mother being a creative is so lonely sometimes. And so hearing podcasts of other women creatives, it's just awesome. You're just you're doing such a nice job. I just love it. Thank you. I appreciate that. And that's a sentiment that a lot of women have said that it's like, it's so nice to hear that other people are going through the same thing. Because it like even a lady that I spoke to the other night both in Belfast, not Belfast, Dublin, in Ireland. And she said, it's lovely to hear that everyone around the world is going through it too. You know, it's just this universal thing that we're all struggling with. And yeah, it's that support in knowing that we're not alone is just so important. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's a beautiful night to finish our phone. Thank you so much, sir. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Season 1 Special Season 1 recap Special Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts A look back at my guests during Season 1 and a reflection on the origins of the podcast. The seeds for this podcast were sown early in 2021 when I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home. I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realising that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mum who was a friend of mine and find out just how she was doing it. From them I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how other mums are doing it ! Thus the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mum, and a few dads too, over the course of these past 6 months. I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perception and shift my thinking on a number of issues, and I hope this has been the same for you. Here’s a little wrap up of some of my favourite quotes from the episodes which made up Season 1, 2021 I hope you enjoy. Connect with the podcast here https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to this special episode of The Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make that art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia, I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. The seeds for this podcast was sown early in 2021. When I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home, I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realizing that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mom who was a friend of mine, and find out just how she was doing it. And from then I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how they're doing it. And also what other mums are doing. Thus, the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mums, and a few dads too. Over the course of these past six months, I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things, about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perceptions, and shift my thinking on a number of issues. And I hope this has been the same for you. Here's a little wrap up of some of my favorite quotes from the episodes that made up season 120 21 I hope you enjoy. What's interesting to me with hindsight, perhaps is that we'd hit this sort of point where our mothers had been the first generation of the second wave feminists. And so we'd been told a lot about what our expectations for our life could be, you know, what, that we could have it all, you know, all of those messages that that we were getting, and the sense of freedom and ambition that we all have, and should have. And then suddenly we have children and realize how compromised that can be. And that that is an age old problem and not really an easy problem to solve. So feminism or for you know, no matter how liberated you are. So the fact is we we love our children, and we want to be there for them. And our children love us and I desperately attached to us. And therefore finding space and time for something that we want to do for ourselves is incredibly difficult. Yeah, I don't know, I just it wasn't for me, not the newborn thing. I've loved their ages now, but would literally prefer to walk the depths of hell than have a newborn again. I'm not even kidding. Yeah, you can. I'd also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about. I think it's good if they can see that. Those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lining me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children. I changed I let go of it. I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So I kind of feel like you know I need with the time that I've got especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go away. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you. You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry, don't stress ratio are you here ratio me? Yeah Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before Saturday nights at shadows or little adventures I used to do back in the day you know is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mom, you have to let go of that life. Yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids law. Development and their their health and well being is above above yours Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant. You can't be unwell. You've got to be that for therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed for my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Have you feel that mum guilt? Oh, it is real is definitely I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing his job. I was like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her hour that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own. Like, where you're being critical of others, where you like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. I can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle the same time my writing have changed? Definitely. Yeah. I have a collection of songs I have a new body of work that I'm I've started recording. And it's it's very much inspired by motherhood and and relationships with my own mother and, and grief and, and yeah, identity and belonging and home. And I don't think I would have explored those themes. Pre children. I don't I don't pray children. My songs weren't all about love and breakups. You know, a number that were and then under that still I you know, but I don't think I would have been inspired to explore those really personal relationships, family relationships, had I not experienced that enlarging of your family, you know? To me, being a mum is the best thing I have ever done. It is just the biggest blessing. And I'm always it's always in the back of my head, that they're only this little months, like they're growing so fast. And it might not be everyone's cup of tea or how they want to do things. But I have just loved being there and doing that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I'd have 100 kids if I could. I'm not 100 Actually that that would. Yeah, maybe 90. If you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be Alson you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt. But I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today where I feel like I could be doing better. I should be making a different decision. I think it's I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom. Is that what they call it? Where Yeah, yeah. Are you just real? sacrifice yourself, for somebody else. And yeah, it's really interesting because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being. It's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood and, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt I just sacrificed myself. I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids, and you seem to be putting everything into the children, I know, from seeing it firsthand, through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and your wonder like, now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about, she loves, so we make time to fit her, you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life, if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion, and you've got nowhere to you know, to do it, and it builds up and you know, probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with the children and just having this double life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you. If it doesn't have you don't have an outlet. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel, some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall, he's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby, like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself, what are we going to set up so I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age, and kicking myself for not trying at least. So I said, he said, the kids, you're an amazing mum, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Because you can work in a cafe, absolutely, if that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing. Because they're learning from me, don't just stand still, because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. It's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me seeing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, and they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that, yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter, that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly, that you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around. You know, you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say I'm not a I'm not a A person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I am not that person. I work I thrive off work, I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a man is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mom does not stop you from being an amazing musician and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so Oh, you're back at gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm playing better than I was beforehand, so that the mother guilt of putting yourself, you know, at head of your children, sometimes, I've definitely grown learned over time not to have that quite so much. I think as the kids were younger I did, but especially that like when my youngest son in high school, I was like, No, you know, what, I'm okay, I deserve to have some allocated time. And to actually let the whole family know, right? Well, this is actually something that's really important to me, and I'm going to make this happen. And it was actually really nice to see the support that they gave me to write Yeah, really, even my, my middle boyfriend, he would say, he was actually said to me, I'll be really inspiring me with the work that you're doing. And, you know, that's the biggest thing for me ever. And my husband's really supportive, as well just, you know, constantly telling me that he's proud of me, which is really lovely. That definitely helps with not feeling guilty. If I, you know, had some space and time through the week to, to focus on my artwork and to be quiet in the studio, then absolutely, that reflects in the way that I am with, with my kids in the sense that I think it helps me to be more present. When I am with them, I'm not so much thinking about that. It allows me time and space, I guess, to really focus on them. So I think they shifted from thinking that they all these different things take away from each other, but they don't they all support each other and work together. Like I said, as part of an integrated life. So that's been a big shift for me, and, and being able to shift my thinking around there. And I think it's helped me manage my expectations. I guess I have myself. And then when I found out it was twins, it was like, all the anxiety kicked in. Because I felt like, well hang on. What does that mean, for me returning to work can I return to I won't be able to return to work, you know. And then you have all the stress about how my, how's my body going to change with two it was, I felt great with one baby and I was happy with being pregnant. But then once I found out it was twins, it did really slow me and I had to really adjust to getting excited about it and not being too anxious. So I'm very lucky that I had twins. And I think that now and I love their bond and I love being a twin mom. But I didn't you know, I didn't initially I really I feel bad that I think that but I really was upset and I was really anxious. So I had pretty bad anxiety when I was pregnant actually, once I found out I think it's also about making a space for yourself. Like making art, or even just making stuff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important. As an adult when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time more. It becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an absolutely it's like mental health you know, and it's and it's so connected with looking yeah looking after yourself. And so for me it's very much part of my identity I think when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent if you are completely into the next few years being, you know, in a state of creative upheaval If you commit to that, then you know it. It changes it changes everything. You know, you can't it's not possible to to have those those sort of positive relationships without making sacrifices. How do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I, I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have, have actually had a lot of flack. Over the years for I think I got, I got told at one point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment? I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess, that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, I had had an identity, I was a health care worker. And then I became a mom, and then I wasn't that anymore. And so you know, people would be like, Oh, what do you do? And I'd be like, Oh, I'm a stay at home mom. And so they would automatically say, oh, then okay, what is your husband do? Which I'm just like, it just felt terrible. To me. It felt terrible to me. I went through an identity crisis, really where I was just like, What am I besides a mom, like, it didn't feel good to me, I felt really, really lost during that kind of transition, because I didn't really know. And like, just, I mean, I'm not saying that, like, just being a mom isn't enough. But for me, it didn't. It just didn't. I just felt lost. You know. So yeah, I mean, it is really important to me to feel like I have something that is just mine. I spend a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from families. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing with a foreign when now that I'm doing a bit more work here in that Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and can try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had and realized it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble. And, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and pay. You know, I have huge admiration for you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time. organically, disclaim all that stuff is so much different for the mother. It's just this just the ladies thing for fathers, it does change. But nowhere near as much as a mother is going through all that sort of identity is just trying to separate motherhood, you can get lost in the water murky. But it's definitely very important to have those two separate because I think you're just running yourself silly and you lose maybe a lot of that passion that you might have wither away a little bit. Because you just feel like that you've got to put family as a priority. And then this is exhausting and draining. It's easy to just go in there. One day I'll get there but I think if you can find the time to even if it's a little bit just to separate them and educate that individuality neutrality variable. It's not just that monkey. It's like, it's the wife guilt. It's the brain guilt. It's the WHEN DO WE it's very hard to make time for everybody. I think now I think more so it's important for me to realize that not to think of it as mum guilt anymore, but, but realize that I think they need to have a better version of mum. And if Mum needs to be in that creative space, then they're gonna get a better version of me.

Suzanne Culberg Australian writer + coach S2 Ep65 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Suzanne Culberg to the podcast. Suzanne is an author, coach and speaker from Sydney Australia, and a mum of 2 children. Suzanne is known as The ‘Nope’ Coach who helps over-givers and people pleasers learn to say ‘No’ without feeling like a Bitch. Suzanne is a memoirist, and she wrote her first book The Beginning is Shit reflecting on her experience with over eating and weight loss. The lessons she learned about why she was eating was the catalyst to drive Suzanne to help others. Suzanne’s passion for helping women is fuelled by her own experiences of over-giving, over-consuming, and over-doing everything. She’s on a mission to not only help women set boundaries for themselves but also to make boundaries normal. We should be saying ‘No’ more often. Through her signature online program Why W8? Suzanne has helped hundreds of women break the cycle of putting themselves last and instead build the confidence to set boundaries. Suzanne is a Certified Practitioner of Neuro Linguistic programming (NLP) and holds a Bachelor of Medical Science (Honours). She also has Certificates III and IV in Fitness, and is a Certified Sacred Depths Practitioner. Connect with Suzanne website / instagram / facebook Connect with the podcast website / instagram If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Suzanne Kohlberg. Suzanne is an author, coach and speaker from Sydney, Australia, and a mum of two children. Suzanne is known as the note coach who helps over givers and people pleasers Learn to say no without feeling like a beach. Suzanne is a memoirist, and she wrote her first book, The beginning is shit. Reflecting on her experience with over eating and weight loss. The lessons she learned about why she was overeating was the catalyst to Dr. Suzanne to help others. Suzanne's passion for helping women is fueled by her own experience of over giving over consuming and overdoing just about everything. She's on a mission to not only help women set boundaries for themselves, but to also make boundaries normal. We should be saying no more often through her signature online program. Why wait? Suzanne has helped hundreds of women break the cycle of putting themselves last and instead build the confidence to set boundaries. Suzanne is a certified practitioner of neuro linguistic programming, and holds a Bachelor of Medical Science. She also has certificates three and four in fitness and is a certified sacred depths practitioner. Please music you'll hear today is from my new age ambient music trio, LM Joe which is myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. And apologies for the quality of my voice at the moment. I do have a bit of a sniffle. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Lovely to meet you. It is lovely to meet you. So Mount Gambier in South Australia. Is it? Yeah, right down the bottom. We're about 20 minutes from the coast. So we're like south southeast corner really close to them. Yeah, we're about to you. I'm in Kellyville. So Western Sydney, an hour out of CBD. Okay. Yeah, right. I I've never been to Kellyville to the UK. What's funny, I only moved here three years ago, my mum grew up in Sydney. And then we moved to Tassie. My husband, I've moved around quite a bit. But anyway, mums like killer whales like farmland, and I'm like, might have been 40 years ago. But now it's very much suburbia. Right? And only 40 minutes from Sydney. So I'd like be pretty, pretty intense sort of building. Sort of, it's actually awesome. It's such a lovely kind of like suburbia plays. It's funny because I grew up in Tassie, and then we've lived in Kingaroy. So also rural. And when we first moved here, because I'm not much of a driver in traffic, and a friend invited me to drummoyne I didn't think to look where it was. And I was like, I assumed it'd be like this, but I had to end up going at the Cross city tunnel over the Harbour Bridge. And, like my anxiety was like, just not good. Yes. Welcome along. It's really lovely to have you and I I'd love you to just start by sharing about what it is that you that you do and what you create. Oh, I love this because I've never really to be honest, consider myself creative. And it was like, Yeah, but I've written a book. So I grew up in a very family that was kind of against the arts. It was like there's no money in that. And yeah, but I'm like closet creative. And I really love to journal and I write a weekly newsletter which you're technically supposed to be at my about my business, but usually it's just like a journal entry. Last week I wrote about my child's first concert in the choir. And I love the responses because like they're right there with you. It's like yeah, I am creative. All my life people said you should write a book So I eventually did and I self published that last year. And I have a few others in the works. But it's yeah, it's a it's a commitment to put a book out there. But I do. Yeah, I've written a newsletter every week now. Rain, hail or shine for five years. Oh, well done. Thank you. That's an achievement, isn't it? It's certainly yes. So you say that your sort of family were against the idea of being, you know, having making a career when you're a child, were you sort of, were you doing art and creative stuff when as you were growing up? I wanted to so I, it's funny. I'm an introvert and a socially awkward person. But at one stage, I wanted to be an actor. Yeah. My parents are like, so few people make it like, what's it's interesting, what's modeled to you. And I'm sure they had the best of intentions. But it was kind of like, if you can't do really well at something, why do it at all? So yeah, not the kind of attitude that I want to inspire in my children. But anyway, I remember at one stage, trying out for a play, and we lived really, and there was no bus service out to our house. And I got in and my parents were like, well, how are we going to? He gonna go to this? Because it was two weeks at the Playhouse Theatre in Hobart. Oh. And anyway, a friend also got in and her mom, they had four kids, what was one more, so I just lived with them for the two weeks that the show was on. And it was so fabulous for me because I'd always lived out in the country. So to live with this buses, and you can actually go to things instead of having to sit outside your parents work after school. It was just fabulous. And yeah, I loved I loved it, though, as I said, socially awkward, and that not really was ever going to be a career. But I do like to dabble. Oh, good on. Yeah. It's interesting isn't those blocks that we get from other people in our lives? And I mean, I've got a had an interesting one recently, with my husband regarding my work, and it was the same the words that just came out of your mouth literally the same as is like, well, how are we going to make that work? And it's like, well, can't we just be pleased that this is happening, you know, look at look at the achievement level of something. And then it's like, the rest can work itself out later, is interesting that like, that's the initial response. I'm always really fascinated by what's going on for that person to make them. That's the that's the first thing they say, You know what I mean? He will those his story I read once, it's like a parable. And it's about this gentleman who fishes for a living. And this like lawyer or businessman or something comes along to him and goes, well, you could, you know, get extra boats and hire a team and charter and all this sort of stuff. And he's like, to what end? And he's like, well, so then like, you know, you can retire and go fishing. And he's like, but that's what I'm doing now. So I think sometimes we get caught up in the hustle and bustle of, you know, how much is this gonna make or how's this going to support us or whatever, but we're miserable. And the thing is, we always tend to like make do not in a like, sad way. But you know, there's there's a joy that we miss when we're chasing $1 or chasing a certification or achievement of some sort. I definitely agree with that. I feel like our capitalist societies got so much to ask for in that respect is 100% D. So you mentioned that you've written a book and you've got more in the works, what does the sort of what are your books about? And then memoirs, and I laugh at when people say memoirs is in plural, and I'm like, it's never been official, but I love Glennon Doyle before she was going well, she's always been claimed or before she was famous. I came across her with her first book, which was carry on warrior. And then I read Love warrior and then obviously I've read untamed but they're all kind of memoir style, like the all little snippets of her life. And so my first book is a weight loss memoir. It's about my journey with weight and body image. And the second one will be a business memoir, like from one printer to entrepreneur, like the real thing, not the six months to six figures in six steps. Yeah, nonsense. Right. slogging the reality of final one I have in the works for now that there may be more because as I said, I've moved around a lot. So I could write about that as well. It would be a parenting one like my, I love the harasser gene and a few other people who write about like real parenting, not the thing. And my kids actually have, I think, a bigger following than I do. The number of people who like I follow you for your son. So yes, he's destined for the stage. But yeah, like, and people have said to me a number of times that I should write something like funny things my kids say, because I often put the little snippets on Facebook purely for me. So when the memories come up, I'm like, Oh, I remember that. But then they just have kind of taken off. I think the last thing I shared with him had nearly 100 likes so I was like something of mine. 10 likes something if my son 100. Let's go. Yeah, so you mentioned your son, how many children do you have? towards you? You have two children? Yep. So Xanthi is nine. She's a girl, I say because the names are unusual. And beautiful name. Thank you and Casimir. He is seven. Oh, that's a lovely name to what they like unusual names gonna say were they inspired by like literary or anything particular? Well, my husband and I both wanted unusual names. So not commonplace. So we like read through the baby book and highlighted ones and finding ones we both agreed on was the biggest challenge. And Santi We just liked them baby book. But then Casimir is also it's French was also polish. And in Poland, it's spelt Cazal own France is spelt kazimier with a K and is it spelled it with a C and S has actually been like seven King customers in Poland. But it was also a character and a couple of books that I've read. So we liked that name. And then they've both got like more traditional middle names. If for whatever reason they didn't like their first name, they could just go by their middle name. That's cool. It's funny you say I don't know how I fell upon it the other day on the net, as you do, you know, you just see these random stories, there was this lady that has changed her child's name. He's 18 months and she changed it because it didn't suit him anymore or didn't suit the child that she thought he would become. So she named him Aspen because she thought he was going to be like a outdoorsy kind of child and take after his father. And his clear opposite. So they've changed his name to Luke and sloth would like to start I don't know, I just don't I it's really weird, because I don't know I don't understand it. I think I just I don't know. James fascinate me. It's really interesting because mites of mine, I'm the youngest of four. My name is Suzanne, and my sisters all have names that start with C. And I was going to be Korean. But then my sisters are like, Oh, I know someone like that. And she's not a nice person. And every name my mum came up with one of them because they were all significantly older than me. And in the interest like, is it a boy after your father? If it's a girl after me, Don Oh, wow. So I was like, I just I know I wanted a name. But then I didn't want any of that nonsense of people telling me I didn't like it. So I didn't tell anyone. Neither my husband nor I did. And my daughter was not quite two. When Cassidy was born, she knew it. And I can still remember my family asking her but she couldn't quite pronounce it so that she was telling it was catch me. It was really funny. Oh, that's hilarious. On names, like my youngest is called DP, which is it's not unusual. It's just not very common. And I deliberately didn't test that out on anyone because I thought I might get a lot of pushback from that. And then I'll feel uncomfortable about it. So my husband and I sort of didn't say the same to anyone. But then when he was born, and we said, oh, well, it's a boy. It's Digby, the midwife said, Oh, I've got a friend with a dog called DB. And I've just got a Thanks for telling me that you know, like, it's not necessary. Listen to one of your episodes. You mentioned dig because one of my friends when we were pregnant, our children had the same due date. Her Yeah, how you give your baby a name. Fenty was just Jelly Bean. But her son was Digby while she was pregnant. And I thought that was so funny. I ended up calling him something else. Yeah, sometimes I still refer to him as Digby, the midwife he said a dog and Cassidy was born. And I said to the midwife, she's like, Oh, cashmere, like the sweater. But then I thought Oh, that'd be one. So After he gets a quite a bit actually cashmere, and he gets embarrassed about it like you can always correct somebody on the pronunciation like that is your name. So once you do it politely, yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, yeah. And giving the children that, that empowerment to set their boundaries, I think from a young age is incredibly important. That's certainly not something I had as a child. So I think it's great to be able to give them give them that as their when they're little. On your Instagram bio, you've got there that you help women say no, without feeling like a bitch. Can you expand on that for you? You're allowed to work on the show wasn't sure? Sometimes in a way that feels good. So I'm like, okay, that just sounds nicer. So it's funny, you mentioned boundaries. Because growing up and I had never made this connection. This is why I love being on podcast, because the things that come up, the only boundary that was instilled in me was my name. Because my mother had the same name as me and stuff I remember at school. This teacher always called me Susan. And I always corrected her and said it was Suzanne. And when one time she's like, Well, I'm just going to call you Susan. And I'm like we can but I'm not going to answer. She called my mom, like the only time in my school history because I was a bit of a teacher's pet. When my mum got called in. And then she came, she had to leave work. And my mum was like, Okay, well, what's this about? And a teacher told her that my mum was like, I took time off work for this. That's not cheeky, that's her name. felt like the only time in my life and I'd forgotten about like, I remember, but I've forgotten to we're having this discussion. But ya know, I wasn't conditioned to have boundaries, it was children should be seen and not heard. And always be respectful. And, and the school motto, the school I went to was others first yourself last. Oh, like that's a bit much reflect the things that you just take as a child and you don't question. Yeah. So basically, I think that by saying yes to everybody else, and no to myself, is a what have led to me over eating a lot. Because it was kind of like food doesn't talk back food doesn't care. food's always my friend. And yeah, the less space I allowed myself to take up with my personality, because I couldn't say no, and I didn't want to be an imposition. The more I took up physically, because it just had to have an outlet. So when I originally went into business, I was funny, I was an accidental entrepreneur, I basically had issues at the beginning. I'm not creative. I started a Facebook page that was just chatting about what it is that I was doing a newsletter list that's just talking about my life. And then people were like, Oh, can you work with me? Okay, and then I got certified as a coach. And I had the most fun that first year of my business in terms of what lit me up. And then I was like, well actually should like make this profession and the business coach was like, What do you Nish and what's your people don't just ask to work with you. Like you have to make offers. Like that's been my entire business. Yeah, never made an offer. Yeah, um, so then I niched into weight loss because I'd had a big weight journey, but I must admit, I've never been passionate about weight loss because it's more about what's going on internally. The weight the number the size of the clothes. Yes, that is a big deal when you're struggling with it. But you can force yourself to lose weight and still be miserable and unhappy. So anyway, I recently I'm in the process my website's still coming have at the time recording this anyway. rebranding to the nope, coach and helping people say no women say no without feeling like a bitch. Yeah. Because you know, when we say yes to others, and no to ourselves, there's that that resentment, the seed of resentment, like and I just think it's so much better to say an honest no. Then a resentful Yes. And you're baking the cookies now do it and it's about how to do that in a way you know, without feeling like a bitch and in a way that honors both of your needs. Because I'd much rather if I'm like, Hey, Alison, I'm having a Tupperware party. You want to come and you're like, Suzanne, I can't stand Tupperware but if you have a I don't know. I'm not really into the things that I've seen and you can feed me come on over like that to me so much nicer then you saying? Yeah, sure. I'm going to come canceling on the day when I've cleaned my house and made all the food. So I think sometimes we think and they ended up The example of it wasn't I can still remember when I was growing up. I thought my mum liked white linen, the perfume, I saved up for it. And for every Mother's Day and I thought I was so amazing. And I eventually found out she's like, I can't stand it. Oh, I didn't you tell me yes ago like this was money and I thought, and then when my kids, I've got my own kids now. And my daughter bought me something for Mother's Day, it was like a hand cream thing. And I said to her, I love this. Thank you so much. Please don't buy me things like this again, because I've got a sensitive smell. There's some things that I like to buy on my own. And I remember my mom like raking over the coals and saying how horrible it was. And I said no horrible is accepting something for two decades. And then telling me you didn't like it. It's that fear of offending people, isn't it? It's, we've got a hold this, this is something that's become really evident that when we're recording this, the Queen passed away in the last few days. And I feel like it's brought up all this stuff about doing the right thing and be seen to be doing the right thing. So everybody thinks you're good. And I don't I just this that English, stiff upper lip sort of behavior that, you know, keep calm and carry on. It's like, No, you can actually be honest with people, it might be a little bit uncomfortable. When you first say actually, sorry, I don't want to go out for tea with you. Because I haven't seen you in 10 years, and I don't really feel comfortable reconnecting in that way. Everyone goes, Oh, that's like, well, that avoids uncomfortableness for everybody in the future. You know, if someone says, Yeah, sure, I'll come out for tea. And then next time, they say, oh, let's all catch up next month, and it becomes this great big thing. And you're going I don't want to say these people I've moved on I've grown or whatever it might be any situation. That's Brene Brown her quote, choose discomfort over resentment. So it's uncomfortable to say in the moment, no, or no, thank you, or not right now. But then there's the you know, the resentment where you get stuck, because the thing is, so like, it's say, the movies too, if you're like, you're gonna go see this. It's like, actually, I don't like horror, or I don't like whatever it is, but if it was something else, because then it's really clear. And another thing Brene Brown says he's clear, he's kind. So I would much rather like you know, and I think it also to the thing with saying no, without feeling like a bitch, a lot of us are over givers, like we give and give and give to others. And we're unable to receive. And I think that's why we over consume over eat over, stay up late over watch Netflix. And you know, it's kind of like, well, when we can actually say no, and not over gift to others, then we can start giving to ourselves. And instead of having passion projects, littering every available space in our house that we don't actually make time to do, we can do the things that we want to do, rather than doing the things that are expected of us. Because also to sometimes say I said to you, Hey, you want to go and see a movie and I'm actually not contributing worse. I honestly would not be offended. I'd rather that's I was talking to a client recently. And sometimes it just takes someone to point it out to you. She went to a friend's house, her best friend had just bought a coffee maker, the Caribbean best friends with her best friend would know. But anyway, I digress. She's like, do you want to a coffee or whatever? My client doesn't drink coffee. And she didn't want to offend her. So she says she draw. And then she's trying to drink it. Because she was I couldn't I couldn't drink was that bad? Yeah. And the person said, Oh, what's wrong? And then she admitted, I don't actually drink coffee. And she's like, why don't you say I could have made you a hot chocolate? Like, wow, oh, anywhere. And people say hey, do you want to drink? I used to in the past always say no, because we're conditioned. Don't take anything. Don't ask for anything or whatever. I say, What have you got? Yeah, the thing is, I don't want to be demanding and say like, if I'm a you know, I only drink hot chocolate. We don't have any. What do you have? Yeah, open it up. I don't eat meat. And I used to get really nervous and uncomfortable at restaurants, asking if thing was in particular things. And I got over that pretty quickly. Because I once had an experience where I'd asked what was in a particular source or can't think what it was. Oh, it was it a Thai restaurant, it was in some sort of like a soup, like a broth. And I didn't ask and as I was eating it, it was like, I am pretty sure this is like fishing or whatever. And I thought, right, this is this is a lesson G Alison that you need to actually open your mouth and say, so now I don't care. I just say a sheltered from the roof. And if there's nothing else I say, I'll just eat a plate of vegetables so you can stay with vegetables and that'll be fun. Yeah, but being scared to actually honor yourself. Like as a kid when I grew up, I was so afraid to even you know, I'd be at the back of a line waiting and sharp and I get to the front of the line and I'd be so nervous to even just ask for what I wanted. Like, just I've got my dad he pretty sure I got it from my dad. He would walk backwards and forwards past this little deli in this small town where he lived, waiting for them to notice him. So they've let him in because he was too nervous to go in by himself. So it's like, we've all got these little things that we're carrying around. And it's great that, you know, you're offering women that opportunity to do the work to move past that. And then perhaps not pass that on to the next generation. So we're breaking those those habits that have continuously come down. I think that's been what's the most important thing for me not passing my habits on to my children, because children learn through modeling, not what we tell them. So by me modeling having really clear boundaries and me modeling, asking for things, and then also dealing with the disappointment, because just because you asked for something doesn't mean it's going to be a yes. So it's funny with both my kids and my clients, I'm like, you guys can ask me for whatever you want. Don't expect to Yes, though, like, negotiate? Absolutely. So yeah. Yeah, I love that. That's really powerful isn't it? So in your experience, and what was it? How did that sort of play out for you personally, then through it through? Or how did it start for you to sort of realize that your behaviors were connected to the way that you were eating the way you were using food? How did that sort of spark for you? It? Well, they say hindsight, life's leap forward, but understood backward. So I'd been a lifelong Dieter, my parents put me on my first diet when I was four. Oh, that's spoken about in the book. I have to send me your address later, I will not post your copy. Yes. And so I knew how to diet and I knew how to lose weight. And I'd lost and gained in excess of 500 kilograms in my life. Like, I'm, I, I'm good at it. But I was like, there must be something else going on here. Like I'm a fairly smart person. Like, what, what else is beyond? Because the thing is, so many of us know what to do, eat less, move more. It's not that hard. But we just don't do it. Like, why do we eat when we're not hungry? What are we really hungry for? And if true physical body hunger, hunger isn't the issue foods not going to solve it? Yet we we go like most of us are really good all day. And then at night, especially once you have kids and the kids go to bed, start going into town, or for me now my tell is when I buy something for the kids. It's like, yeah, that's totally for you. But it's kinda like, when we don't do anything for ourselves. So like, we make the plans. So we've got a fridge full of vegetables that are wilting, while we buy cheap and cheerful because it's just easier to keep the peace, or we've got the gym membership. But we know that kids don't want to go in the crate, or they're going to cry. So we like just don't go. And, and I believe like giving and receiving. And like inhaling and exhaling, they're paired, you can't have one without the other. So over giving, saying yes to your kids, the school, your parents, your neighbor, your husband, your friends, is paired with over consuming. So so many people think I've just got no willpower, or I can't control myself or whatever. And it's like, it's because you say no to yourself all day, every day. That in the evening, it just levels out and the body is just like nope, so this and then with that then leads into this big shame spiral. So it's really how many of us do have passion projects and love. Creativity is one of them art or things that we've been conditioned as well because you can't make a career out of it. Why bother? Or because someone else's is better than yours. Like, I have my two children they're only two years apart. But my my son's still at the age where whatever he draws he thinks is the best thing ever. And my daughter's reached that critical age where she's like, but hers is looking better or the you know, that kind of thing. And we still have the part of his inside that wants to draw a purple horse with foreheads and glitter and that's it. But we don't indulge that because we don't have time yet. But then we have time to stay up to 2am binge watching shows and eating. So so often when I say to People like the secret not so secret is to actually indulge those passions. And they're like, Well, I don't have time, or money or space, or this or that or the other. And it's like, but you've got four hours to, you know, scroll Facebook and watch cat videos and boom, scroll. It's like, yeah, you do have the time, you just not purposing it in a way. And it's not gonna be like a switch that you can understand intellectually. But it's like actually making that time in small pockets during the day. Like, it was funny. This morning, I was in a funk. And I was like, I just want to eat chocolate, like nothing else. It's like, what do I really understand son, I just say, five minutes to breathe. I'm like my husband, he take the kids. And I come back here, and I'm ready to go. But normally, we wouldn't allow ourselves that. And I think the other reason eating is so easy is because we don't have to read or create or sculpt or paint, but we got to eat. So we tend to not have as much guilt associated with that because we need to survive. So once you you developed this understanding of how your behaviors or thoughts were affecting the way you're eating, you're talking about little changes, over what sort of timeframe were you able to sort of implement this, like, I've got this, I hate these, you know, six week gym, you know, come and lose so many kilos. And we're like, I just test them. I was involved in the fitness industry for many years as an instructor, and then I took a break, and then came back and instructed in a different way, which I loved. But I'm very, very aware of the way that certain industries will latch on to people's insecurities, and will make them think that if you go hard for this short period of time, sure you, you might lose a few kilos, and you'll feel really empowered and amazing. But then you can't sustain this, you cannot go to the gym twice a day, for the rest of your life. And it's not, it's not good for you, it's not good for your family, your relationships, anything around you. So was that sort of on your mind, too, that it wasn't going to be a quick fix. It was something that implementing your life and sort of see how it changed over a period of time. 100% Someone who read my book recently and sent me a message was like, the part I loved. Whereas you're like, I'd rather be fat forever. Then keep doing this to myself. Yeah. And it's like, it's it's hilarious, because now I have a program not targeted at weight loss. It's over consuming in whatever way we do it. Because anyway, I digress. But originally, I opened that as a membership for the very reason that you just touched because six week eight week challenges, like I was already dreaming about the Mac has been John is going to have at the end, and how you lose the weight is how you keep it off. And none of these things are sustainable, and they profit and benefit from the fact that you praise them. Like this thing is the best thing ever. When I'm on it, I lose weight. And then you self blame yourself. I'm the fat lazy fuck who can't keep doing it. Yeah, yeah. So that's what I'm from. And I never wanted my business being that way. But what I found, interestingly about having a membership rather than a program, is people would get to a point where it was time for them to move on. Like they had spent enough time they kind of just slunk out like there was guilt or whatever. Like no, let's celebrate. And like you know, and also to sometimes what should have been a graduation became a divorce when people stayed too long. So I actually re adjusted my business and now it is a 10 week program. I just delivered the last call of the current round today, where the difference in the in the last week we celebrate we harvest like what have we done over these last 10 weeks? And what I love it because every time I run it, we get to that point and there's a people who are always like, cringing or shattering or feeling so guilty because I thought I was going to and I'm like no, let's nip that go hard or go home stuff in the bud. Because I believe it's like you when you're a kid you play that game warmer and colder. Someone finds something and you go What am I what my heart heart? Well, if you are used to doing this challenge type things where it's all or nothing and you get to the end and you're like I didn't go hard. It's like colder, colder, colder, freezing like you're telling the universe Like, what's the point and then you're saying to yourself, I'm just gonna binge on everything and then get so sick of myself, I start again, like, that's not good. Whereas if you get to the end of the 10 weeks and you're like, Okay, you know, I listened to two of the 10 modules was eight modules. I turned up to a call I did one action is like warmer, warmer, warmer, warmer. And that gives us the momentum. So that you asked, and I got on a whole tangent, but releasing the weight took me three years. Yeah, right. So sometimes people will be like, Oh, that's so long. But when you're there, it's like, it doesn't matter. The time is gone anyway. And it stayed off. Like I'm a little bit heavier right now. I'll be honest, COVID hasn't been the kindest, I don't want any more, because I don't want any inanimate object telling me what I should think about myself anyway. Yeah, tell him my clothes. But it's kind of like it's you only ever hear now. Whereas when you force yourself to eat miso soup in shakes and go to the gym four hours a day, yeah, you're gonna shed a lot of weight. But really, it's water and muscle as well, anyway. But as soon as you actually eat again and calm, it's all gonna come back. And that's no way to live that's on or off. So let's see, yeah, this all or nothing approach? Yeah, no, I love that. And it's not. And when you're talking about, you know, your, the content that you're presenting to people, I'm guessing this isn't, you know, go for a run or do some squats or whatever this is all what's going on in your mind and working on yourself. I don't actually give them a prescription as in, here's what you do. I help them uncover what it is for them. Because I like that saying the same water that softens a potato hardens and egg. So whenever you do a program, there'll be some people who get great results, and other people who get nothing. And then some will be like, Well, you didn't cheat it or you didn't try hard enough, we did this, but your body is just not the same as their body. So it's about finding like the habits and the things that you want to cultivate that work for you. Like one of the people in my current round is a writer, like a professional writer who publishes books, like why and to, but one, I count myself as a writer for evermore, because I've done one, she's a traditionally published body of work type person. And the penny habit that we're working on for her is just writing for. Because the thing is, you sit down, you go, Oh, I'm gonna write for an hour, and then our half an hour, and then I'll do it tomorrow. So it literally she has to open her thing and write the date. And then from there, we can keep it going. Because what we tend to do is we like set our goal exercise, writing, meditating, whatever, like 45 minutes or nothing. And then six out of seven days a week, we ended up with nothing. Yeah. Whereas if you made it really, really small, like write the date, or for my walking on its go to my mailbox, which is 12 steps from my house, you usually keep going because you've got your shows, or you've got into the rhythm. So the the work we do in the program isn't like a secret thing. It's, you know, cultivating these habits that we do consistently and persistently, and looking at our resistances because we've all joined something, this is gonna be the thing. Two weeks later, you're like, No, next thing. Exactly. And I guess that the importance that you're talking about is you make it, you tailor it to your own life. It's not like you're getting these rules shoved out, you have to do this, you have to do this. And then it's like, Whoa, it just becomes overwhelming. It's like you look at yourself, you look at your life and where those changes and adjustments can be made. And that's different. We have different numbers of kids, we have different jobs. We live in different locations the world because the thing is my pet peeve, The Biggest Loser like I was always obsessed with going on the sharks, I thought that would change my life. Why did they not all but almost all of them gain weight when they go home? Like what is with that? It's because when you go into a show, or in my book I wrote about when I went to fat camp was a health retreat, but I call it fat power. While you're there, you've got no other responsibilities. You don't have to work. You don't have to show up. You don't have family, you don't have drama, you don't have internet, you don't have anything. He's just there to focus purely on you. And then you have this wonderful time and you go home and you're like, I'm going to keep this up. And then you've got real life. So the thing about the program that I run, like every round, there'll be people who are disappointed. It always pulls on my heartstrings. But we have life stuff goes on. And I've caught my program. Why wait? Because what are we waiting for? There's never going to be the perfect time. Oh, there's people who get sick kids who get unwell. You know, some people home away from home for the first time this round. We had somebody moving out and there's empty nest and all this stuff. That's life, but not as in like, let's just wait but as in like this, we are a cog in this and how can we make these things that become part of our life rather than putting your life on hold to fix ourselves? We're not broken. Yes, yeah, no, that's really valid. I think that's that's something that I spoke about on a podcast. I was a guest on it last week about we've all got this idea that, Oh, when this happens, we'll be happier or I have to wait for this to happen. And then I can do that and then I'll be happier. It's like, there is no perfect time. It's literally life is just rolling and it just keeps going and there's always going to be something like you say the kids get sick and throw things out the window and whatever it is there's always something happening. Yeah, and I guess that's the thing you touched on earlier about that horrible motto of your primary school where, you know, putting yourself last, like, as a mother, I feel like we're conditioned to do that. It's like, everybody else has to be happy before us, and our needs come last. And I, I, I hate that so much. And I find that talking to women on this podcast, it's, it's imperative and important and almost essential that they do put themselves first and think of themselves as worthy of, of their commitment and their time and with their art practice, you know, but I feel like women who feel like they don't have that something, that passion project or that whatever, can sort of get lost then about well, how do I put myself first, what does that look like for me? Growing up, my mom never had friends. She never had hobbies. Like, I don't want to say she was just a mom. That sounds horrible. But like, I remember looking at her. And I was thinking, I don't want to become a mom. Like, honestly, if this is what it means to be. Your wife kind of ends, you don't have anything. And it was interesting. I met my husband when I was 18. And we, when we got married when I was like 22. And we were never sure on the kids thing. I could be really honest. Like, I love my kids and everything, but we weren't sure. And then we decided or wait till I was 28. And then we would decide. So we had, you know, by the time I was 2010 years together, and then we were like, Okay, we have kids got pregnant the first month, I had a very lucky journey in that respect. But it was kind of like, I remember when we got the positive pregnancy test, he was over the moon. And I was just sitting there kind of like, whoa, because I didn't think you know, it's like, this is what we wanted. And I was like, yes, but like, there was a little bit of mourning there. Oh, and, and then I was like, I don't have to be the mum. But my mum was. And yeah, like, I have friends. I have hobbies, I have a business. And I model really good boundaries to my children. And some people think that I'm too harsh, or this or that or the other. But then other people like, wow. And I'm like, Yeah, because I don't stand for anything else. But also to encouraging them that their needs and their things are important. And that we all have time. So we have different games that different ones of us like to play and we have a little chart on the fridge when we take turns about who gets to choose and all that kind of thing rather than it's just kind of like I remember the the Goldilocks story and mommy mama bears porridge was always cold. And I had a story about that with my son recently because I always say to my kids, I like porridge. And like if your breakfast takes 12 minutes before I have it, do you want anything? No, I want it later today. And I'm like You do realize mommy's making hummus. Yeah, that's fine. He was like, Oh, mommy, but it's cold porridge. I'm like, Yeah, I mean, Damn straight. It's like you had the thing. You can wait. I think it's kind of like it's just learning. And in life, we don't always get our way. And yet we say to our kids, they're first but then suddenly, when you have your own kids, you've now got to go from first to last. It's really it's kind of like an identity shift. And even with choosing TV shows, it's funny. I live away from my family, my husband and I interstate. So we don't have we see them that often. But I don't really like kids movie. So it's funny. I was on a podcast recently somebody asked me about bluey because I'm Australian. And I had to admit that that's the show my husband watches with the kids. But anyway, I hired a babysitter to take my kids to the movies and other some people will like that's the best idea ever. Because I'm an introvert. I don't want to go out. I don't want to hire a babysitter and go out. I want them to take them. But I didn't have to see the kids movies. And I could stay at home. Like that was like just groundbreaking for me. The kids get what they want. Yeah, I get what I want. And we're all winning my husband I went to Phantom of the Opera in the opera house awesome. And my kids went to see whatever the latest 3d pet movie or I don't know, some super pets or so like everybody was happy. That it's almost like it's normalizing doing things differently. It's breaking down that what we think we're supposed to do, because that's what has always been done. I love all these posts at the moment. People have like normalized naps, you know, having a nap in the middle of the day, you know, normalize something like, it's just like, Why? Why are we pretending that life has to be perfect? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was. You know, when you're talking about your porridge, and you know, the kids having to wait, there is nothing wrong with your kids having to wait, like, I have this thing that, that we've got that, you know, the kids want something. So we will have to drop everything and go do it for them. And the same with the games, like, my little one always wants to play the same board games. And like, I don't mind it so much, because I enjoy some of them. But my husband's like, I want to play this game, you know, it's like, well, let's say to him, we don't want to play this, let's pick something else, you know, they don't always have to come first. Yes, I think that's the thing, that it's been conditioned from previous generation, that the kids come first and we protect them. But then it's actually not teaching them the skills they're going to need when they're older. And that your parents are people too. And they have their own wants and needs and passions and interests that might not necessarily align with yours. And it's just yeah, it's modeling good boundary setting and the family as a cohesive unit. So we're going on a holiday for Christmas. And, you know, we each get to decide for a day what we want to do, rather than just doing stuff for the kids, because, you know, yeah, so because then it's like you're even on holiday, you're just taking your children on holiday. Yeah, I think that's the thing too, like so many times, you there's a difference between never doing anything, it's been I think so many of us are so fearful of being self centered, or self focused or selfish. And that actually, you know, self care and self first isn't bubble baths and this sort of stuff. Yeah, doing the daily things that we don't want to do. But then, you know, modeling that, you know, we all get, we all have to do things like my kids now with their chores. It's so funny. Some days, like, I just don't do this. I'm like, do you think I want to work or cook? Yeah, whatever. Like, left my own devices? Yeah, I'd sit in the backyard and sun or pay with paint or whatever. But you know, it's their life is, you know, 5050 or whatever balance it is. Yeah, you know, if we all do it, we all follow the washing or whatever, then we can go and play a game. But if it's left to mom, then you know, yeah, yeah, I love that my wonderful one. Boy can't be I don't, I'm so tired. I don't want to go to school. I said, mate, I'm tired. I don't want to go to work. But, you know, this is what we do. It's life. You know. That example of the holiday, we went to Queensland recently, and we did the same thing. We all wrote down a list of all things we wanted to do. The some of the things were aligned. So that was fine. Those days sort of suited a few people. But I desperately wanted to go away or watching and I was going to do that. No matter if no one came with me or everyone came with me. I didn't care. But in the end, we all booked a ticket. And unfortunately, my eldest son was too unwell to go. So my husband stayed with him. So I took the little taco. And he was good for a while until he just decided I just don't wanna do this anymore. And I'm like, we're in a boat in the ocean. Where would you like to go sort of thing. And I was getting pretty impatient. Because this was my thing. I was like, pumped to see these whales, and we'd already seen a few whales. So I think he was like, over the whole thing. He wanted to sit inside and I said, if we sit inside, we won't see them. And I said to him, I have waited to see these whales. I'm going to go and stand out there. And it was just, I mean, I could say, I'm just going to send out there. I'm going to look at these whales. And he huffed and puffed and he said, Well, I'm going inside. So I stood out there, took photos of the whales, and he went inside. We told this lady, this old lady that we've never met, Mom and I are having a disagreement. Dr. Leakey and I came back. I gave it five minutes. I thought I probably shouldn't even too long. But damn it, I would say my wife. And I thought we can't go anywhere. I'm not going to lose him. So I went back in and the lady said, Oh, you've got such a lovely boys come over and told me that you're having a disagreement. Thanks, Digby for sharing. But I was like, there was no, that was not the time for you to get your own way. dB. This was my thing. You know, I was letting that go. Yes. And I think sometimes to you, when we do give in and you know, put everyone else's needs first. It's another reason that we end up over eating or over shopping or over whatever, because that part of us that you know what's going on I get my way does in a way that's not nourishing for anyone. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Yeah, it's good for you. I think that's the best thing ever. I think of a few times my kids have, but I love it like on a boat. Yeah, you know, like, you're stuck here. Honestly, they went through my mind I thought, am I being a bad mother because I'm letting my kid wandered around on a boat. And I honestly, it all flashed, I thought someone's gonna think I'm bad because I've left Makita on my own. I thought, No, dammit, he's fine. He's absolutely fine. I can see him. He's safe. I mean, I couldn't see him when I was looking at the whales. But I thought what's the worst that could happen? On here? No, he's not going to jump off the boat. Yeah, and I think that's the thing, too. It's our own inner talk or our own guilt. Yeah, some people might have thought you're a bad mother. And some people would have thought Look at that. Yes, yeah, that's what I want. And then the end of it, I thought, damn it, I've come this far. I'm glad you brought up guilt, because that is a big topic that I love to talk about this whole mom guilt concept. What are your thoughts about that? Though, very significantly, because I think it's something that we can't escape we all have. But it's just like for me, you know, when it happens, it's interesting. So like, you can say something to your kid and be like, I shouldn't have said that. And apologize. I'm all for apologizing when I'm wrong. Not as a way like, whatever. But like, you know, I shouldn't have said that. I feel bad. And then the kids can move on their merry way and skipping and happy. And, and it's I'm the one. So what's that saying that? Pain is inevitable. But suffering is optional. So the pain of like, oh, I shouldn't have done that, like, you know, but then the suffering and the stuff that we tell ourselves. So I can think of examples of like, when my son has hurt himself, like he's fallen over or whatever it happens. But then I'm like, well, I should have been watching him or I shouldn't have the room arranged like that, or it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And then if I want to go to the other extreme, and I know I'm not the only one who does is a couple of 100 share this. But anyway, it's kind of like, Wolf, I really was. I'm not a bad mother, because at least I'm like, not burning them with cigarette butts or something like that. But like, it's sometimes like, yeah, if you really were a bad mother, would you be questioning? Am I a bad mother? Like, yeah, I think, yeah, you know, we all doing the best we can with what we have. And there are moments where we yell, or say something that we later like, makes us cringe. Like, you know, I open my mouth and my own mother comes. Like, I'm never gonna do this. And then you do it. You're like, Oh, yeah. And it's just kind of like, it's, yeah, it's all the skills, we want them to learn humility, you know, apologizing, being honest, sharing our feelings and not putting our stuff onto our kids. But yeah, kind of like, you know, so it's interesting. I I'm very strict in some people's rules, when I go out with my children. And I have a one warning policy. And I hold it. So we've literally gone out to dinner before ordered, and left, even though I've paid like, because the restaurants not missing out. And the kids think that they can get away with it. Because I've already paid like, No, we will leave we've left the cinema before. And it's like, I'm disappointed too. I wanted to watch this. But I would rather like take it to learn this. And anyway, some days, I'm just like, I've got nothing. So I'll be like, this is a no warning kind of day. Yes, you can go to the park or yes, we can do this, but everything is gonna go swimmingly. Or we will go home as soon as you poke prod breathe into the air. I don't know. It's like, I mean, it's just being honest with where I'm at. And also upholding that, because I think I know, my sister. She never she's like, I don't understand why my kids are so good because her kids are. Well, it's funny. She was just here this morning. Her kids are now in the 20s. And it because our age gap. But anyway, when I said if you clean your room, we can go the movies or whatever. If they didn't clean their room, we wouldn't go as as my own parent now my own children. It's like making sure I choose that not punishment, but the consequence. That's not going to be a detriment to me, because I remember a few weeks back, I was like, okay, no electronics for a week. And I was like, this was not a great idea because so it's picking up thing that but also to something because like if I sent my daughter to her room, she'd love it. Yes, like me, whereas my son, that's a punishment. He's like, I need to be around people. So it's kind of like, yes, it's gonna happen. Yes, we learn from it. And whenever we need to, like break that pattern so for me, for me, it's the cigarette butts story. It's not my finest moment, but it's just, it's just enough of ridiculousness for me to go Of course, yeah. In some out of it. That's viral. Yeah. And like you said, the mere fact that you that we are questioning if we're good enough, that's telling us that we're not good enough, you know, because we care because we're aware of stuff. Done and again, I just have all these thoughts, and I brought them down, then it's gone. All right, understand you're in the other thing I was gonna say that helps me with mum guilt, or any sort of guilt or times that I feel not enough yet, is I have a folder on my phone. It's called nice things. People say, whenever I get an email, or a text or a comment or whatever, I screenshot it, and I go and save it to that album. And when I'm having those things where I'm like, I'm the worst person in the world. And everyone hates me, because we all have that. I read back over it on my phone. Awesome. Yeah, I love that. I'm getting really used to the fact that mothering is not right or wrong, black or white? Yes or no, there's this this gray area, it's literally an entire gray area and this level of ambivalence of, yes, you can have a bad day and and yell at your kids because they misbehaved. But you can also love them so much, you would you know, throw yourself in front of a moving car for them like that. And I think some people depending with the, you know, left brain or right brain, how you your brain works need to have a yes or no, they need to have a straight answer. They need to know, was this right or wrong? And this whole motherhood conundrum just throws that completely out the window. So then I think for some people, it can be confusing. If you are and I've put this in air quotes, doing it right, from your own perspective, because there are so many gray areas. For me, there's something that another thing I think, is I always love my children without a doubt. I don't always like them. Yeah. So it's like, you know, I if something happens, like I love you, fiercely. I don't like this. So it's it's separating like the love is always, as he said, jump in front of a bus or take on a intruder or whatever. Yeah, you're not drawing on my walls. Okay, how pretty it is? No. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good one, actually. Because my background is in early childhood education. And something that I learned straight away when I started working at this particular center, about nine years ago was that we wouldn't use terms like you're a good boy, or, you know, you're being bad or whatever. Because it's the behavior that you're not happy with, not the person. Yeah. And I've been really, really, what's the word focused, or it's important to me that I talk to my kids like that, in terms of their friendships. Because there's a whole thing of kids of a certain age, I'm not your best friend, I don't like you're not my best friend, you're not coming to my birthday party, all this sort of behavior? Yeah. And it's like, yes, you you were frustrated with your mate is because he keeps your ball on the roof, it then doesn't mean that you're not friends, you know, just breaking things down separating an actual person to the behavior that you don't like, or, you know, I think that's really important to set up because that's not something I grew up with normally changing that, that thing is the way we speak to ourselves, too. And, you know, because the thing is, you can't be what you don't see. So it's like modeling it for you for your children. So my son, he sees a psychologist, he has autism. And they he calls her his emotions, doctor, which Oh, that's good. And she works a lot with him with how he speaks to himself, because he's got a very critical inner voice and anything that I think it's part of his autism to, doesn't take a joke. So like I'm very, very jovial and can take a stab, but I don't mean it, but he will take it to heart. Yeah. And it's the way he speaks to himself in any way I have. I use a Voxer voice messaging app for my business. And the other day, someone left me a message and most of the time I can listen to them in front of the kids and it's not a big deal or I don't actually I usually have my headphones, but I couldn't find him anyway, whatever happened, I press play. And the person's like, Oh, I'm such a dick. Like the message, you know, he was like, why would they talk to them about themselves like that? And I was like, see, we all do we all have our ways that I'm not good enough, or, you know, this is wrong, or I'm bad. And then it's catching that. And, you know, so it was actually such a great learning experience. I don't know, I told the person about and like, I've always wanted to be the reason somebody needed to laugh about it. But it's just kind of like our inner talk, like, you know, and distinguishing. Like, I, I made a bad decision. Not I'm a bad person. Yeah, the thing is, the message was that we're supposed to message me like two weeks ago, and I hadn't, so I've had to deconstruct sorry. And it was like, you know, life happens. I get it. But it was like, you know, I did a dick move or IV is not I am so yes, exactly. Yeah, I think that's a really important thing that self taught because Matt and I, we, we tend to beat ourselves up so much, and talk to ourselves, the way that we'd never speak to anybody else. You know, we're so so harsh and horrible to ourselves. A lot of the time. Yeah. And then who wants to hang out with somebody like that, and then we're stuck with ourselves all the time. So no wonder we end up in you know, behaviors that don't serve us because at least gives us a break or numbs it out for a short period of time. Yeah, that's so true. My website is Susanne kohlberg.com, which you'll probably spell in the show notes. Because it's an interesting I think I've ever had anybody get Kolberg. Right. Again, anything from Collberg to gold. It's about to be updated. I don't know when this show will end. So if you guys come across it as not quite yet, just put your email in there. And I'll let you know. I've been rebranding, it's been such a process, I tend to really significantly underestimate the amount of time things will take person who works long term on goals, but anywho. And it's got all about my program on there, it has the first two chapters of my book, if you do sign up for the first two chapters of my book, it doesn't automatically add you to my list. It's one of my pet peeves, so I can never get away from it because I just wanted a freebie. So it literally is just the two chapters, I send two emails, and the podcasts I've been on if you wanna listen to me anywhere else, and all that kind of thing. But my program, it's, it's 10 weeks, it's called Why wait visiting, what are you waiting for. And it's for people who are overdue us over consumers to kind of overcome our inner resistances and our all or nothing mindset and take small sustainable changes, and it runs for 10 weeks at a time. If you do at once, then you're an alumni and you get a significantly discount if you want to come back some people in my life is we come back every round, some people dropping once a year, it's you're always welcome. And it's about showing up as you actually are, there's none of this kind of pretense or whatever you can wear your pajamas, I really don't mind. Just kind of like what's actually going on, and a space to be seen and heard and witnessed. And then, you know, work through it if you want to, or just be seen because so many of us, we don't have a place where we can say what really happened. We have like the highlight role, which is Facebook or Instagram. And it's just yet about breaking these really big goals down into small ones. And, and starting out and celebrating the things we celebrate. And why won't you be humiliated to say anywhere else because it's just so small. But it's like, I'm so excited. I walk to my mailbox. Yeah, then that's that competence that's playing warm up with the universe and then that building excitement of others, rather than just kind of ho hum, I've missed my work like that. So it's about learning to witness the times that we're in struggle and struggle of others not wallow in them. Hmm. That's very important, isn't it? Like you said before about you know, we can choose to suffer or not? Yeah, pain is inevitable stuff. Stuff. Thumbs up. Like, it's interesting, every round, it's finishing now, but towards the end, we say like, you know, I have a list of things, how many of these come up that you weren't expecting? And because so often people will be like, I thought this would be the time I thought this would be the thing. And it was like, somebody's passed away. Somebody had COVID, somebody's moved, somebody's lost a job like all these stressor indicators. And then we're like beating ourselves up. And it's like, still in the room. Accounts. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Like that deserves acknowledgement and celebration. 100%. Yeah. Because I think as a society, as this capitalism come up again, but it's like, you have to meet some incredible goal, some massive thing, and then you're worthy of being celebrated. Yeah, and every quarter is going to be better than the last quarter. And that's the thing to like, because a lot of people do come back round after round for my program, and like this round might not have been a growth round. So I taught I teach it in seasons. So we start in an artificial spring, because obviously, a we're from all over the world. So some of us it is spring, and some of us isn't. But also it's the seeds. It's the planting, it's the initiation, a lot of us, especially your daughters, were really good at Spring. This is gonna be the thing. Oh, yeah. And then we move into the summer, which is the persistent and consistent action. A lot of yo yo dieters at all, and I think people were terrible at summer. This is where we go away, then we go into the autumn or fall, depending on where you are in the globe, which is the harvest of what have we done this round. And then the winter, a lot of people are really good at winter. So spring, winter, spring, winter, spring, winter, and it's like the break either between rounds or you know, a longer break the time for rejuvenation. And because we need to prune in order to grow in a capitalist linear society. We fear winter, because it's the end, like then it's over. Yeah. Whereas in a cyclical natural rhythm after every winter comes the next spring. Yeah. And I think with the power of the program, and the people who are coming back, you know, you can see like, some of it is disappointing. Sometimes you have around where everything's happening, and you're making so much progress. And other rounds, you feel like you just keep your head above water. And as a facilitator, I get it out. Because I teach the program live every time none of its pre recorded. It's like, what's going on for me shapes that as well as what's going on for the people in the container? And I think there's some power in that rather than us just pretending that everything's hunky dory all tile here. Absolutely. I was just this, this whole issue of, of being transparent and honest and sharing. When things are going bad. This is a thing that I feel like there's a movement happening. You know, and you talked about the socials where everyone just puts their highlight reel and people like, you know, people that are capable of it, I guess I able to share when things aren't going well. And then other people say that and go, ah, that makes it okay for me to say that this is normal, you know, it normalizes life. I think the big work of like, my life's work on my passion is teaching people and modeling how to sit with people when things aren't going well. Like, the first time someone told me I was a space holder. I was like, What is this space blank, and I was thinking about the hospital, bear hug up. And it's like, we aren't taught how to sit with people in their discomfort. We either taught to fix it, which is very masculine thing, what can I do? Have you tried? Have you tried keto? Have you tried paleo? Have you tried, which is like really frustrating. Or we're told to diminish? It's not that bad. It's not that bad. And people have it worse. actually sit with someone who's having a hard time and just listen. Yeah, it's the most powerful thing or normalize like, of course, this happens happens to everyone. I think, you know, the inner talk thing with my son, like he explained to him and normalizing we do all speak to ourselves in ways you know, but it's like having tools or things or just noticing it the power of noticing, rather than eating like that. For me, that's been the hardest thing becoming a mother. When my kids are struggling. I just want to throw food at them. Because that's what was done to me when I was a kid. Yeah, exactly. Same, same. Yes. Like food and alcohol were the common threads through every situation, you know? Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? But yeah, that I'm noticing a lot of posts lately about toxic positivity about calling out that behavior to say, Oh, well, at least you You should be grateful of this and blah, blah, and just that diminishes the actual problem, or the issue just skirts over it by making you feel happy. Like you know, and you complain about your kids are where you should, you know, you should be glad that you can have children. That's like that's not a helpful thing to say. No, it actually I think that that toxic positivity really increases mental struggles and depression, anxiety, because you don't have anyone to speak to. And people think that being helpful, but it's like struggle isn't a competition. Yeah. And then who do you turn to because the thing is, like, I was very fortunate that I didn't have any struggle conceiving. And it's like, oh, I can't talk about that because other people do it. But there's other things that I had struggle with that other people don't. And it's not like a tit for tat thing like, oh, well, I can't you know, it's just kind of like, that sucks. And all that's awesome. Because sometimes when you get what you want, like we were talking way back at the beginning, if this then that. So you were saying your once this, sometimes once you achieve the thing, it's not what you thought, and then you can't like so I dropped 78 kilograms. So like an entire person off my body. Yeah, the number of people who tell me how I must feel You must be confident you must be this, you must be this. And it's like, honestly, it was hard because I didn't have an identity like this. And people didn't recognize me. And I didn't recognize myself. And when nobody wants to hear that. They just want to life's perfect and you're confident. That's it. That's the headline, isn't it? That's click on on the internet, they don't click on woman loses 78 kilos and doesn't feel this way. Like, it's, that's not that's not what society is built to see here. You don't burst the bubble. And it's like, I think we should be bursting more bubbles and not. So it's not saying you don't do the thing. It's just that we don't set ourselves up. I think that's the reason so many of us want to avoid being disappointed. So we kind of live our life preemptively disappointed. But then there's other things like there's always going to be new problems. Like once you reach this goal, there's going to be another goal. So it's focusing on how much you've gained and how far you've come. But realizing there's always going to be a gap. Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? I feel like we could talk forever about this. So often not spoken off, because it's kind of you know, like, I remember when I first started coaching, I coached for an organization, they wouldn't put me on their website, because I wouldn't have my makeup done. Like, I'm always like, you know, Mumba. And this is how I am, this is who I am. And it's like, well, nobody wants to see that they want to see, you know, the after, like, you know, the fancy clothes and the makeup and hair. It's like, they don't get around like that. Like, for me, it's funny, if I see someone all done, and then I get a call with them. And you know, it's like, this is it as interesting. My first iteration of my website, it was Sue's professional. I didn't do full makeup or whatever. But I wore like nicer clothes. And I had my head straightened. But I don't look like that. So this part of my website, I showed my current clients and like what we love is you've got the ridiculous T shirts, and you haven't done your hair. Yeah, cuz that's how I am. We think, Oh, I can't go out like that. I can't be seen like that. And we kind of almost living two lives. And it's like, no, no, this, this is how I am but and then there's also with the kids like teaching them when it's appropriate to say certain things like I'm very much just very fairy, I will own that. And in the house. I don't mind so much if my kids do a little bit but in public never. And it's funny my books called the beginning you shit. And my son will either say the beginning is bad word. Or the beginning is sure. He knows as big it's kind of like, there's so much awareness there. And I remember at the therapy session thing will pint we play cards at the end and I get to come in, because we're teaching him about turn taking and whatever. And we've got this game called uno flip it. Oh, yeah, one year. Anyway, sometimes at home, I'll say let's flip this bid sheet. And pass music to the data therapist. My mommy says let's flip this bad word that starts with a beat I just think there's something about the realness as opposed to like I know growing up, it was like, This is who we are. Like when we go to church, my family's religious, or when we go here, and this is who we are at home. And I just didn't understand that. Whereas with my kids I explain you know, there are things that are allowable in the house of words, and these but not to be different. But to just be mindful of others. Yeah, that's it. Isn't it that respectful of others and other people's boundaries? I suppose. And yeah, that's good. Well, I do love playing that flip it sometimes I get confused. Because some of the things aren't really clear if it means it's going to flip Well, this summer. This one took me a while to work around the world one in five, nothing nasty, because we make it compound. So like for us one time and recently I did pick up 25 cards. Oh my goodness. I feel like we've got the core of the decade now, but he's a good guy. I really like that one. All right, well, have you got anything else you'd like to share? Sort of finishing up any sort of final thoughts that you'd like to tell everyone? For people, it's kind of you can listen to a podcast or read a book or whatever, and separate yourself into you know, me and them or I'm different because or things like that. And I encourage anybody who's listening it If that's the case for you, to look at how we're the same with the hotter and colder game of the universe, when we look at, well, she has two kids and I have four. Well, she lives here and I live, there we are, where we're making the distance greater. And it's kind of like when we look for, you know how we're similar, like, oh, wow, she was on her first diet at four, I went on my eighth or, you know, she lost and regained, like hundreds of kilos. I've done that, too. So, why not me is what I've been encouraging anybody listening to think, because we can think why me all the reasons I couldn't do this. But why not you? And I just, I really hope that that that really lands or resonates with someone because I know for me, for years, I'd be listening and reading and like I was obsessed with before and after stories, when I was losing weight, hence why I never found one like mine. They were always before my life was terrible, after my life is magical. And it was kind of like this Disney Princess story. Yeah. And I was like, whereas I felt more like the Disney movie that had multiple sequels. Something bad happened again, next book. And it's just kind of like, you know, this is life. And then also to, even within people being honest and transparent. There's the selectivity about about what we share, because sometimes to people like, oh, well, despite them having all this going on, you know, they've still had it or they've still gotten there. We all have our our dark moments are the moments that you know, we wouldn't share. And it's not that they disappear. It's that we know how to move through them. Or they go through them faster. Luckily, I still gone slammed entire packet, Tim Tams not proud of it. But less often or less amount, or I catch myself and go. This is really solving it. No, yeah. So those moments of awareness, it's, it reminds me of that. There's this model about how we learn. And it's like unconscious. Whatever, like you don't know that you don't know. So like my son. He didn't know he didn't know how to drive a car, because it wasn't his frame of reference. Yeah. And there was conscious not knowing. So like, my daughter's like, I don't know how to drive a car. And I want to. So sometimes when we go from Yeah, unconscious incompetence, to conscious incompetence. So when you first start making these changes, it's often harder, because you're aware. And that's when we can stop and quit and start and stop and whatever. But when you get through that, then you get to the conscious competence. But you have to think about it until you get to the unconscious competence, where you just do it. So like recently, I watched that. The other reason why Facebook memories instead, it comes back up my first Facebook Live. Oh my gosh, it's so bad. So often people take that stuff down. I leave it there because I watch it. And I'm like how far I've come. Yeah, literally breathe into a paper bag for nearly an hour beforehand. I couldn't go on without my own. So I had one of my kids in it. It was just, I had the dot points on the screen. And one of my friends was just like, you sound like you got to pull up your ass. But you know, it gets better. Your best gets to get better. But you've got to start to wear someone else's. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Absolutely. Because we're all in different little ways. In long the journey. You know, we're different seasons. Nobody's ahead of you. You're not behind. You're just in a different season. Yeah. Now that I love that analogy. That's really, really cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on Suzanne so much for having me. It's been such a lovely chat. And it's a pleasure to meet you. And I'm thank you for doing the work you're doing and sharing what your experiences and I'm sure it's helping. It's helping people and it will continue to do so. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Janelle Thomas Dubai based singer + songwriter S2 Ep64 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Janelle Thomas, a singer, songwriter and performer based in Dubai, UAE. and a mum of 2 boys. Janelle begin performing at the age of 5, at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons, and played in the high school Marching Band playing clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20's deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Music at Concordia College in Montreal. Her day job wasn’t satisfying her, and fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for 4 months. Without really knowing where Oman was, she said yes! That was 16 years ago and she has performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract, when he joined the band as the guitarist and they have been together ever since. Janelle and Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015, they continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting two wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud, high-voltage 5-7 piece pop cover bands (as bandleader and musical director, respectively). Under the guise of "Lady J Duo" they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics, and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary, good-vibes-only listening experience that is elegant, yet funky. In the Autumn of 2012 they released Noise Rises (Strange Cat Records), an album of retro-inspired funky soul, featuring ten original songs they wrote together. In the spring of 2020, during the Dubai Covid-19 lockdown, Janelle and Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity, showcasing their favourite tunes, taking on-the-spot requests, and cameos by their firstborn Theo (a natural show-stealer). They continued these for 18 months. You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast today, and her music is used with permission. Connect with Janelle website / facebook / instagram Podcast - instagram / website You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast, and her music is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast this week. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Janelle Thomas, a singer songwriter and performer based in Dubai in the UAE, and a mom of two boys. Janelle began performing at the age of five at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons and played in the high school marching band on clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20s deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music at Concordia College in Montreal. her day job wasn't really satisfying. And fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for four months. without really even knowing where Oman was. She said yes, that was 16 years ago, and she's performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract when he joined the band as the guitarist. Janelle And Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015. They continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting to wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud High Voltage five to seven piece, pot cover band as bandleader and musical director respectively, under the guise of the Lady J. God, Lady J. bein Janelle, they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary good vibes only listening experience that is elegant yet funky. In the autumn of 2012. They released noise rises through strange cat records are an album of retro inspired funky soul, featuring 10 original songs that they wrote together in the spring of 2020. During the Dubai COVID-19 lockdown, Janelle And Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity showcasing their favorite chains, taking on the spot requests and featuring cameos by their firstborn Theo and natural show stealer. They continue these for 18 months. You're here Janelle is amazing vocals throughout this podcast today, and their music is used with permission. I hope you enjoy today's episode Gavin lane, got a fistful. Gonna run that bill will be the end of a long route backwards dad. No place my hands. Man and we're all gonna say welcome Janelle. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for having me. Allison. I'm excited. Yeah, so I can I can hear your lovely accent. You're from Canada. Is that right? I am. I'm from Canada, but I live in Dubai. Alright, so what how like, how long have you lived there for what sort of brought you there? So while the music Yeah. So my husband and I have been together 16 years. He's also Canadian. And we started traveling in a band. So So we were playing hotel residencies in the Middle East and throughout Asia. We did that for about eight, nine years. And then it brought us to Dubai. So we've been here since January 2015. And we're residents here now. And we've had two little boys here. So this is this is home for the time being. Yeah. So these are really hot there. Let the moment super hot. Yeah. I just got in from the pool. So I'm okay at the moment. But yeah, summers are very long they and very hot, especially with small kids. You really feel it so much more, because you're basically just inside for five months? Yeah, but it can get up to 50 degrees Celsius. Sand humid. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, the outdoors is kind of non existent, aside from if you're doing something in the water. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. With us being from Canada, we do have a bit of that experience. Because you'll have really cool times in the winter, where you don't go outside, you're not gonna go take a stroll or take your baby out or anything. But they don't tend to be constant, you know, you'll have cold days, and then it kind of warms up enough. And you pack on your layers and you go outside, whereas when it's hot, it's just hot. Yeah. Because you can't do anything you Yeah, yeah. So, um, so we used to find this. Okay. And since we had kids, we just find them brutal. So we're just counting down till October. Oh, my gosh. So what's like an average sort of when it when it's not so hot? What's the weather like, then? So lovely. You know, there's kind of six months of a year where it's gorgeous. And you kind of can't think about living anywhere else. So I would say sort of the coolest it gets probably in January, maybe days that are around 20 to 25. But Sunny, and gorgeous. It's perfect. Yeah, I mean, those are the times where I find it too cold to go swimming. I say that as a Canadian where I grew up swimming in icy lakes. But yeah, I get I get in the water now. And it's the season you sort of, you're sort of forced to do things that you wouldn't necessarily do if you had your own choice. If you lead with me. Love you. So tell me about how you got into music because it's something you've always done. Yes. And no, you know, probably like a lot of musicians always been a music lover. There was always lots of music in our house, my parents, neither of whom are musicians, but we had, you know, huge record collection. And there was always lots of singing and dancing that was encouraged. So, actually, I started performing. From age five, I lived in a really small town, and we had we had little ballet school. And that, for me was everything like those ballet recitals at the end of the year, you know, with costumes and makeup and lights. So I would say that that's where it all started was was there. So for the first few years, I danced, I took piano lessons, as you do. And then when it was time to go to high school, actually, I chose to go to high school in the big city, which was Montreal. My dad used to commute he drove back and forth. So actually I commuted with him like super early mornings and stuff like that, to go to high school. But I really wanted that school because it was the only one in the city that had a marching band. I was in the marching band and nerd for years playing the clarinet. And I played the trombone for a year. And then after that, you know sort of spent my 20s I think sort of struggling with am I going to be an artist? Can I be an artist? Or should I get a real job? You know, I did do a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music. Yeah, because when it was time for university, I thought I really like to do something I enjoy. I might spend three years enjoying myself and then need to become an accountant or something serious, but give it a go, you know? Yeah, and then just sort of bounce back and forth, did some contracts, then some admin work and then would be, you know, kind of happy with the lifestyle of neither. But it just kept pulling me back in I really was miserable when I was being an administrator even though I had some great jobs and lovely people. Have you know, and there was just a moment where I realized, like, I cry before I go to work every day at this very nice job. It's just such a nice job for somebody else. It's not for me, I can't do this. I'm only 26, whatever, to have given up. And so actually chance meeting with a musician I knew. And he said, We've just lost our singer. And we have a gig in Oman. And do you want to join our band and travel for four months? And I said, okay, and then said, Where's omen? While it's kind of next to Dubai, it was okay. But I never heard of it. So that was 16 years ago. Yeah, like when, and it was really different experience starting to travel then I mean, we had an app and there was no, YouTube, there was no Facebook, there was none of that kind of even the amount of information that you'd have was limited. It was people's blogs, and, you know, blurry photos and that kind of thing. So it was a relatively scary and endeavor to embark on. I think the thing that saved me is the four guys in the band that I went with, had all been there the year before. So they did have lots of first hand experience. But of course, coming from Canada and traveling to the Middle East for my first real big overseas adventure, let some preconceptions about how it's going to be and I thought, well, I'll just do four months, and then I'll go home. And then 16 years later. Still here. So your husband's musical as well. You guys played together? Where did you make the line? So I met him after that first contract. So actually, I did one conch. I did one more than he's done. So I joined here Monday. Oh, yes, we're totally keeping score, who's played more show? So I joined the band in January and somehow got asked to be the bandleader. I really feel it was by default, because everyone else in the band was French Canadian. And I was the only one who spoke English. And with my administrative background, I spoke good business English. So, you know, I would have the current bandleader coming to me and saying, Can you help me formulate this email? And I'm like, Yeah, you can't start it with Pedro. You know, it has to be a little more formal than that. So he kind of went, well, could you just do it? I was like, Okay, I guess so. So I certainly took on all the admin tasks, which also involves liaising with any of the agents or hotels that we were, you know, that we were dealing with, because these are five star properties, you know, the Grand Hyatt and Hilton and everything, like you needed to kind of be a little bit more on it than that it was the time. So we did the one gig. And then we went back to Montreal for this summer and made a couple of changes to the lineup, the guitars that we had was leaving. And so we went through about oh, my gosh, seven guitarists trying to find a good fit. And finally got Felix who was recommended by a friend of a friend. He was only 22. At the time, he lived in an even smaller town than the one I was from, like, 500 people. And, you know, 20,000 Cows was kind of where he was coming from. He'd never been on a plane. And so for him, it was an equally big adventure. And he, but he was kind of in a place in his life where he wasn't really happy and had just finished his musical education, you know, informally in college, and that, and he sort of same as me with, well, I'll do it for four months. And yeah, and then we got together pretty much right away. So that definitely helped us both feel like this was something that we wanted to stick with. And so yeah, so we've been together a long time. Oh, that's an awesome story. I love that. And isn't it just so typical in the music world? It's like, it's a friend of a friend or someone new this person or it's just the way it goes? Isn't it? Just this connection of people? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, we're very lucky. But that and it's also funny, too, that there's, I'm, you know, the more that I have, the longer that I am a musician, the more I'm amazed by stories of bands who have that longevity, you know, like bands like YouTube, where they have the same members forever. Because I know even in a couple, it can be really hard to have exactly the same vision for the music and the same vision for the timing of how you want things to go. You know, when we had mostly we play as a duo now, but But we spent most of our time together playing with larger groups. And there were lots of fantastic musicians we played with, who would say I'm tired of traveling, I want to go home and be with my other half, or we had someone leave to go to med school. And it was kind of doable, but you're an amazing keyboard player, he was okay. But I want to be a doctor. So, so to realize that not only does the music have to work, but where you are in your life at that time. It has to work like that for people could do that for 30 years. It is it's incredible, isn't it? When you break it down like that you think of all the things that could have changed or gone wrong, or like it's, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's still we actually liking each other and getting on like, right. I'm not saying that about you and your husband? I mean, I'm talking about you too. No, no, no, you can say it about us too. Yeah. Gosh. Adding up your misery causes in the shop, you've been dumped by text, then being slipped. You're wondering what's next, baby. Though life's looking great. You can choose not to decide. I have listened to some of your tracks online, you have got a powerhouse voice. I love your voice. It's I love a bit of built voice. It's so good. passion and energy. Yeah, so did you have like formal lessons for your voice? Or did you just sort of instinctively feel it out and work it out yourself? I've had very few, very few. So I went to university in jazz boys, but have had zero lessons. Before I started I had they went to Concordia, University of Montreal and one of the things I love about their program is they want it to be more inclusive. So unlike some of the other universities that really kind of only take you if you've been through the conservatory stream, or what have you, they just sort of said, if you want to play come audition, first, show us what you can do. And then we'll teach you all the back end, after you know, so. So I was kind of on the edge because I'd had quite a I had a fantastic teacher in high school, you know, but but wasn't quite there. So still needed to do more training, you know that you're training and theory and harmony and all of that to come. So they call that sort of like a zero level to get up to level one to be with everyone else. But but in terms of the singing, I did have contract wasn't really, it really wasn't much. There's only about two semesters of vocal lessons with Jerry Brown, who was their vocal jazz instructor. One of the things I'm really grateful to her for it is she she just gave me a lot of opportunity to get onstage, which I think I really I really needed at that time. As you can see, that's the part that I've hung on to like, gosh, don't ask me any harmony theory now that's long forgotten, but it's still performing. And, and then after that I did. I did a musical review from point and there was a really great vocal coach there as well. So she I mean, the coaching was quite specific to the songs for the show. But she was she came from a musical theater background. So that kind of helps with all that. Belting and being on stage and having to really, again, like project and in a very much like onstage performance way as opposed to recording or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it is so different, isn't it? It's yeah, two completely different things. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of the music that you do, I know, I've seen that you write your husband and yourself right together. And you do have this, but I think the way I can't remember how you worded it now on your website, but it was really clever. It's like you could take any style of song and turn it into your own basically, is that how you look at when you're, you're doing your comments. That wasn't how we started. But that's very much Where to now that we've seen too, just in general, I think I think YouTube has been great for for that for introducing the general audience to kind of the magic of reinterpreting you know, reinterpreting styles, so, especially groups like postmodern jukebox, and we're big fans of scary pockets who do funk covers of whatever, you know. So we've found in recent times, that's gotten a lot of traction for us. And it's also cool because when we spent a decade basically just playing pop music, and lots of songs that we love, and it was, you know, full on big songs, Sweet Child of Mine and Highway to Hell sometimes and all these kinds of things. And now we don't have to lose that repertoire because we can translate it. So we do funk version of sweet child of mine, we do a jazz version of, you know, you shook me all night long. And, and, and sort of, you know, all kinds of other things. And so it's a lot of fun for us, I find in that way, it's a more creative process than it used to be where we were just sort of the cover band who had to, as best as we could reproduce what was on the record. You know, that's what we kind of did for a long time trying to bring life to the album version, but but it was pretty much you know, in the box, and it's not so much now. Yeah, that is good. Because like, I don't, obviously, I don't know what the audiences are like in Dubai, I can only speak from my, my tiny little town, but my sister and I had a lot of experience singing in bands, my sister more than me, but, and I did a lot of covers as a soloist. And sometimes your audience just wants to hear the songs that they know, done in the way that they know. And it can be really challenging to get them past that, and to push them a little bit. So it sort of can be hard to know, like, unless your audience is ready for it can be really daunting to try and put in something else and even like putting in originals is like, you know, is that you can sort of relate to that very much very much. And, you know, the audiences in Dubai are high maintenance, I find that way. They're great. And they love live music. And we, I mean, we have a career as purely full time performing musicians, you know, we don't have other jobs we don't teach, we're so lucky. This is what we've been able to do for 16 years. But at the same time, I think that demands are such from us, the as you said, like if it's Hotel California, just play the solo, don't do anything else they want to sing along, maybe they know this solo, you know, they need to hear it as they know it. So there are some songs where we just kind of were like, we're not even gonna attempt that, that you guys just you need it the way you need it. So that's fine. But actually, it's been surprising that they've been as open as they, as they are to hearing different versions of things, we find there's very few opportunities where they're really open to hearing things that they don't know like in that sort of why we don't one of the reasons why we don't do more original music here. The other reason is we have two small children. We got like no time or brain space to write anything. But also there really isn't the opportunity for that you just and you know it's hard when you're playing and you see everyone's eyes kind of glazing over. Yes, I know that feels like you feel like I've got these people they go and really good and then you put in you think I'll take a chance now putting this out and then it's like dammit, I want to stop halfway through despite all the fire alarm. Oh, it's funny, isn't it it was the story that drew me in. Hell you were so inspired by the man with a Viking didn't know it was just you using views and trying to confuse So you mentioned that the two small children How old are your children? So we have two boys who is four and a half and Hendrix is two. Oh, I love it is a great night. Oh that's good. We figured we have to get away at least we're both your parents are musicians. Yeah. Do something a little little left to center it to each night. Yeah, it's almost like it'd be a shame if you did it. Right. So did they like they enjoy sort of hearing you guys playing the guitar or singing at home? You know what, it's funny actually, we don't do nearly enough playing at home. I think that that's one of the for us. One of the hard things about maybe gigging as much as we do you know, and I hate to say there's anything hard about it because I know we're very blessed but like we're we're tired during the Ha, we're good. So I know other people will say, Oh, you must just grab a guitar and sing along all the time. And I'm just, I'm just trying to keep it quiet. And I talk too much during the day, because I gotta go work tonight. You know, when we do, they love it, obviously, they're totally exposed, you know, there's instruments around, they can play what they want, they can sing a lot. We, during COVID, one of the things we did to sort of stay in touch with people is we started live streaming, it was new for us. But we were locked down here in Dubai. And like, when we had our lockdown, it was locked in a locked down, like we did not go outside of the apartment for 35 days, at one point, everything is very delivery oriented in Dubai, even before COVID. So it was quite easy. So you can still get, you know, your medication or groceries or whatever, it all came to the door. But so we were struggling with being trapped in the house at the time, I was four months pregnant and you know, being trapped together with your husband and your two year old. Boy, it was like, Okay, we were feeling really lonely. You know, so we thought, let's try live streaming. And it just got a great reaction. And we realized, actually, that we'd spent so long making music and traveling for people all over the world, but not are our families and our, our people at home because what we do go home for our one month of holiday. Most years. We're like we don't, we're on holiday, I know, I need a break. And I'm what we used to play in a band, it was always really loud music six days a week. And vocally, I needed a massage, you know, so I could do the next 11 months, that kind of thing. So, so those people just, they don't know, they don't know what we do. So our family and friends were just tuning in in droves, you know, and people also to have their own, you know, lockdown of whatever degree. So we found, especially people who are alone, so, you know, kind of in the moms category, but a lot of these are women who live alone, who were really, really isolated. So being able to come on and see us and and we started bringing Bo on and then it was like, forget it. Like we felt like we played a 55 minute, like opening act. So they didn't come on for the last five. You just have people chiming in, in the chat going to have the open arms. And other people like No, no, it hasn't come yet. Okay, like whatever, like we're just the warm up. But this was lovely. Yeah, it was great to see that, that he had fans. And it was a way to, for us to also share what we have, like it's so we kind of got released, you know, into the wild, maybe sooner than in Canada or the UK. So we were back out and doing activities. You know, before people there were. And so then actually, we sort of started this whole new feature of also just filming the activities that we did. So if we went we took to the or to the aquarium, or we went to the pizza or just rode the metro or whatever. We just filmed them. And it was just kind of, you know, life in Dubai, and he would come on and he would narrate the whole thing, which people love. So he tell him, you know, if we went to the petting zoo, and all that, so yeah, he was super into that. So it's a bit sad that now that we've gotten busier, we don't have the same kind of time to do that. Because I think it was a really special features special time that we ended up doing. Probably about 100, like full hour or hour, it became an hour and a half because an hour wasn't enough, you know. And we played games, we did like a quiz show, and we did all kinds of stuff. I'm disappointed because that would have been amazing. Our Australian friends did have trouble turning it because it was like 12 It was midnight or one in the morning for you know, maybe my nurse friend coming off shift at the hospital. So you catch a bit but that was awkward on is that oh, yeah, I could certainly relate to that. Like, you know, you're doing it for yourself because you need something to keep that creativity sort of going, you know, but yeah, like you said the the upside of that is people on the other end are getting so much out of it. So yeah, my news for Don Yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, it was good. And it's it was really nice to that over the course of the probably about 18 months that we ended up doing it You had to it was kind of starting at just about two, not even two and a half. And so that for me now has been such great memories to preserve to really see him growing. And you hear him singing, and he's singing more in tune as the time goes along, and then his baby, and I'm getting more and more pregnant, you know, and then his baby brothers, and then his baby brother is coming now and singing when we do you know, the two of them sing together and all that. So it's been, it's been really nice to be able to share that with with people for whom it's that's also really meaningful to them. Yeah, it's a very small, but very important and significant audience. Yeah. Well, that's lovely. That is, it's a lovely little snapshot to have, isn't it of that period of time in your life yeah. How did you go singing when you were pregnant? Did you find you your breath was affected, like the diaphragm and all that from having this baby? Good times. For out of breath. And super out of breath. Like, both times, actually, I think I was more out of breath in my first trimester than I was at the end, you know. So that was, so when I was pregnant with Theo, we were actually still on our hotel are the very last of our hotel residency gigs. So it was here in Dubai. But it was still three or four nights a week, nightclub Smokies still jumping up and down that kind of thing. Still being expected to do shots with people like I just had to constantly be making excuses for why more I was telling people that I was pregnant, you know. So that would be jumping up and down still having to do, you know, Highway to Hell. And whenever that was tough, that was tough in that sense. And I think once you start showing and you're pregnant, it's, then people understand, oh, yeah, okay, well, you're going to take it easy, you're not going to jump around so much. So then just my feet were killing. But with deal I performed up until so this was 2017. So I performed up until two days before he was born. Because he came three weeks early. Yeah, I was it was supposed to be my last go. And, and even had my friend, our great friend who's the drummer at the time, and he said, you know, you better take it easy, because you don't want your water to break onstage. I think it's totally said as a joke. And it didn't, but it did 20 hours later, like it nearly did. And I thought oh my gosh, it just would have ruined that status. All the cables, like I could just imagine everything's covered in like goop, you know? Yeah, so I did my last show. And then he was born less than 48 hours later. Was it supposed to be like that, but anyhow, he had other plans. So that was, it was great. Like, actually, I love being pregnant and still singing, I felt really good. I felt really healthy. My feet were sore all the time. But But aside from that, the guys I worked with, were super supportive, you know, and, and people loved it, too. You know, we like we are played at Hard Rock Cafe at that time, which is a very, very much a family venue out here. And so you just have women coming up all the time and and remembering their pregnancies. And it just felt really wholesome, kind of like family, family values sort of thing. And that was definitely my plan being pregnant with Hendrix too, but you know, COVID can kind of hit when I was about four months pregnant. So So one of the things they did here in Dubai is in addition to the lockdown then even when we were, you know, kind of free to go out again, there were still really, really tight restrictions on entertainment for quite a long time. So. So even though I was ready, I was like, you know, we've been out of work, went back at it, even though I'm seven months pregnant now or whatever. I couldn't and so, so then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gigs that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it though physically like we did you you must have Like, good birth and everything like good after, or was it like really? I did, like I really, you know, I had great pregnancies and the actual deliveries were a little bit tough at times I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like convinced showing us on this Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage, everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said Hampshire, you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby, like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit. My feet were so swollen. And I thought, you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can. Like, I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just, I couldn't even put my feet in anything. And so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is, please, everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah. But, but I got there. And I really, we, you know, we played three sets. And I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna faint. Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea. I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches. So I couldn't sit. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want a stool. I'm like, no, no, no stool, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like cling on to the mic stand for the first few sets. But you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. So everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see as you know, we've been six months since we've been there. Because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually the third set, good. The third set was better and it was kind of okay, well, this is the power of music that what it can actually do for all of us. But oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Ah, I'll take my hat off to you. Honestly, that's that is amazing. Good on you. Was there ever any question in your mind that you weren't going to do it though? Did you ever think? No, I just No, I cannot do it was like that. I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it. It's happening. And you know, I will say that, like six months of unemployment is a really good motivator for that, too. You're just like, yeah, no, no, we need to start having the ball of finances you know, ball financial ball rolling, like ASAP so, yeah, I'm gonna get on stage. Now when I look at it. I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're a crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Good. Take up drinking is Elton cloud syncing, trial fun and give thinking, wow. Get out and founded by Anna less than wrenching. You go up to your head. Do them. How long did were you away from the station before you came back? Four weeks, maybe four weeks? Five weeks? Yeah. It took it took longer. I will say at that time. But I felt good. You know, I felt like I was ready to be back. But of course the first time. I just couldn't imagine the legit sticks of having to leave him like it wasn't even necessarily that I was nervous to leave him with somebody else. Because of course, like, free COVID, right, he was kind of everyone had helped him and everybody, you know, we used to just like people cough, germs all of our babies all the time. So, you know, that was okay, I was comfortable with that. But I could barely figure out like how to get out of the house, in under four hours, you know, when we would have a doctor's appointment? Like I would literally be preparing for that. Hours and hours ahead of time and still be late all the time. You know, I think one of the the differences too is I was breastfeeding exclusively. The he didn't do any auto feeding for the first two months. So that too, I was just kind of like, how does that work? How are they gone? So actually, the first gig that I did with Theo was one that had come in, and it was in our neighborhood. So it was like 10 minutes walk from the house, it just happened. And I thought this one I can do, you know, I can live and it was one that had a kind of a strange pacing for the evening. So in the middle of the evening, there was like a one and a half hour break. And I thought I can do that. I'll just run home, like in my show clothes, and then feed my baby and then run back to the gig and then come back after. Yeah, so it just kind of worked out that that was one and then you know, quite quickly realizing I have to make a compromise somewhere like I can't just be exclusively breastfeeding. If I want to also be on stage I have to be able to be away for four gigs. So but that's a hard, a hard, you know, thing to work out in your head the first time whereas then by the second baby, I was more comfortable with the idea of bottle feeding and then it was easier to step away. Yeah. Oh, good on you. That is awesome. Like, I'm so impressed by that. I'm gonna put a round of applause sound effect through that. But I will tell you on that gig, which was a bit of a venue that anyway, I was very dark for a reason, let's just say and I was literally in the bathroom, like, you know, pumping milk at one point and watching a cockroach crawling across the wall. And I thought, Here I am making food for my baby like I'm trying like I have the hand sanitizer I'm trying to keep everything is getting there's just a cockroach crawling across in front of my eyes. I thought oh my god, what am I doing? But having said that, yeah, exactly. You know that they they survive like, I don't know, I think we get really scared that they're not going to survive without us. And then when they do you go. Oh, actually, this is great. What else can I do now? Let's meet Well, I did anyway. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Sean. Stone, opposing forces. And predictable unknown. Is you the sound? Man, I'll see you on Monday. Was it important to you that you got back to your pre I want to say you pray baby life, because it's never the same, but holding the things that are important to you. You're performing you're singing? Was that like, the top of the list? This is me. I'm going to get back to this as soon as I can. Yeah, very much. I'm, you know, I'm a relatively old mum, as they you know, as they go. So, I was 39 when I had the Oh 42 When When I had Hendrix, and one of the reasons that I hadn't started a family any earlier was that I was the bandleader like I, and the dynamic I think in the band because Felix, the musical director, and I was kind of all the admin bandleader side of things, we were very much Mom and Pop, you know, in kind of the structure of whoever we worked with. So we'd work with basically like five to seven piece bands. And for the most part, like, I felt like those people were my kids, you know, kind of dealing with the feelings and drama and scheduling and making sure everybody had clean clothes and you know, that kind of thing. Because also too, when you're traveling that as a whole other aspect of you know, there are a whole other host of issues that come up where you're kind of like living with people and they're living away from home and all of this so sometimes it was a lot to handle and I thought there's no way I could have a real baby that I need to take care of where this band is my baby, you know, and I also for myself, I If I didn't want to not be able to do everything that I was doing, and, and I knew having a baby would change my life, and I knew that there would be compromises that had to be made, and I was just not in any way ready for that. So, for that reason, too, it was really important to me to perform the whole time I was pregnant, you know, kind of up until the bitter end, it was like, I'm still, I'm still doing everything that I could do, you know, with the exception of bending to plug in cables, to a point where I just cannot get down there. I and so then after baby, it was like, Yeah, I'm back, I'm back. Nothing has changed, you know, of course, everything has changed. But that I really kind of had like a death grip, I think on that element of my identity. And that is, the thing that I think I struggle with most really, is I still get really frustrated that I'm not able to do all the things that I used to be able to do, there was a moment where I was thinking maybe that I would have to even give all this up just because of so unhappy with how that all had gone, it kind of coincided with just sort of what happened in the market here in Dubai, you know, for such a long time, Felix and I had been leading a band. And then some of the people we worked with, left the band because they wanted to move on. And also just in the market, the budgets just got a lot smaller. So all of a sudden, there weren't gigs for five or six people, it was no Oh, to Navy, we can stretch to three. And so I was left feeling. And I know it's an all makes sense, but you know, really feeling that I took my hands like off the crank to have a baby. And it all fell apart. Just like I knew it would, you know, and and it was. And so I felt like a lot of that was my fault. Like, we would have still had van and we would have still had gigs, we would have still been just as like, busy and happy had I not done this, you know. And so that took me a while to get over and to sort of you know, it's not all about me. Like there were also other factors at work just like the economy, that's not all my fault. Yeah, yeah, how you would feel like that, yeah, it's very high. And it's having to kind of work my head around to, to appreciate and, and adapted to what we do now. So. So that was a thing kind of as things shrunk, you know, we sort of went six, five, all the way down to it just being feeling SCI. And and then the gigs changed, you know, and COVID was a big part of that, too, that we've, you know, we were lucky enough for most of the last two and a half years to actually have that live entertainment has been allowed, there was about 10 months where it was, you know, kind of band completely. But because Felix and I were now a small unit, we were more affordable. And because we also moved away from playing the pop music, the B student big band. And instead, we were doing these, like, Jazzy, you know, covers but still have pop music. We found that there were a lot of and also to one of the rules that they only brought back fairly recently is that there was no dancing allowed anymore, because they didn't want people kind of like being close together mingling. So restaurants were allowed and restaurants could have music with the tables had to have social distancing, you know, and all of that. But then actually, we found ourselves really well positioned because we could just set up husband and wife like in a little corner and play these songs that would still have people sort of dancing in their seat, you know, by not getting up it was all at a quieter value. It was actually really popular, you know, and the other things that came with being in a restaurant like gigs that start at 730 I want to be in bed before midnight. Definitely. Certainly, because you know, I have to get up at six o'clock in the morning. No, and there's none of that, you know, slip until all hours so. So I've worked my way around to really appreciate it but it mentally it's there are times there has been a really hard slog you know, and it's probably been about three years of lots of talking to myself and re The assessing if I'm happy with where things are and where they're going, yeah. Well, I mean, it's not to say that there were, you know, not moments of serious self doubt. And, and us really questioning things, you know, even even at the very beginning of COVID, where they were closing the airports, right, you know, and, and gosh, our prime minister on TV, say Canadians come home, that was exactly what he said. So, of course, our parents are like, get on a plane and come and, and, you know, and we're just going well, do we, though, but we have we live here, you know what I mean, you have an apartment full of stuff. It's not just, it's not like we're on a holiday, you know. So that was a hard decision to sit tight and say, Okay, we're going to stay here. And staying in a place where, you know, there's no, kind of like social safety net for foreigners here. So there's no employment insurance, there's no child, like, kind of welfare thinks that you're on your own. So we had to just try to, you know, tighten our belts manage our savings to make them last as long as they, as they could, you know, borrow money when we had to, to get through it. And of course, the whole time, you're thinking like, is this it? Is this just the end? Because that was one of the things that was so hard about COVID to it was, maybe this is the end forever? Have in person performances, like the repairs were like, is this? Is it just all gone now? And if so, what are we hanging on for like, then we need to be pivoting and learning to be accountants, like, this is what has to happen. And so if they're, there have had so many long periods of just not knowing what the hell we're doing and what the hell's going on. Now, of course, in hindsight, like we see, okay, no, we were, we we made the right call to is to stick it out. And stay here, I think, actually, one of the big factors that, you know, factored into a stain was that I was pregnant. Because it was also I don't have a doctor in Canada, you know, my doctor is here, the quality of care is, is excellent here, and it was still really accessible, you know, whereas in Canada, they kind of like, locked everything down. And my sister was pregnant at the same time. So we really, so I have a nephew who's only three months older than Hendrix. So we really were kind of, you know, compare and contrast, like through the whole thing. And she was having tele health visits, and I'm like, no, no, I still go in for my, you know, twice a month ultrasound. Like, I'm still allowed to do that. So you know, I think that live streaming was really great to show us that we have a another way of, of reaching people. But I feel like it's not over, I feel sort of that, like our deciding is not over, you know, we really feel like we're here. We're here for the immediate future. But also, I personally know that I'm left with a lot of anxiety and kind of, like a form of, you know, PTSD, almost just the stress of the insecurity of the last two years is, is something that I really struggled to shake, to, to feel secure. Again, in as secure as you ever feel when you're a musician. I mean, I've spent the last 16 years of life on contracts and having like, zero, real financial security, you know, as many artists, you know, that's our life. Right. But this has added a whole like other layer to it, which is kind of permanently stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And that's thing. It's so it's so unknown, because it's like, I know what you mean, like, it's winter, next gig winds, you know, in normal times, but then it's like, Will there ever be gigs? Like, it totally changes the whole way? That you think about the whole thing, so yeah, I can I can empathize with you there because that's, yeah, and that's thing. It's COVID Still ticking along like things are still happening. And yeah, we just we have no idea where it's going and what's going to happen and yeah, it's full on in it's been a really, it's been a crazy time to be alive. You know what I mean? Like it's it is one of those hopefully once in a lifetime occurrences, you know, like a war like, something like that, that this is is you know, the thing we'll talk to our grandkids about, basically. Yeah, and, and, um, yeah, I'm still not sure how we're the lasting changes, you know, that this This will make like, one of the things that I was sort of surprised at is how quickly kind of the online side of things really like online performances really dissipated once in person performances were a thing again. Which is great, because I mean, hey, we're like, that's our job is to be in person performers were in the room. But, and in a way, it's fantastic. Because it thinks that it shows me that there's nothing that can replace being in the room with the people making the music, you know, it's just, you can't put that on a record, you can, you know, put that on on a screen, it just you have to be there. So good for us. Because that means people still want to see us in person, but also to is kind of stressful, because it's like, well, then, is there ever really a plan B for for us? Or is it always because certainly when we were live streaming, we made a little bit of money, but it was, you know, dribs and drabs, it was not like enough to sustain us so. So that's kind of where I am now. It's just to feel that over the long term, not sure how much longer we'll be able to kind of get away with doing what we're doing, you know, because if ever to the market changes again, and we're now not so well positioned for what people want, then that's tough. So I mean, this is like a story of all you know, performance artists also sample if you lead with me, me, me love you you know, that I find it Oh, so hard to let go. Change my mind when you say in your sweet baby one of the topics I really like to talk to guests on the show is about mom guilt. And I put I put it in air quotes because I recorded an episode with an artist this morning who had to Google what it meant because she literally did not experience it didn't know what it was. And I thought that was awesome. That's the first person I've met that hasn't known. So I'm really that was awesome. So that just goes to show the broad range of experiences that we have with this thing. What's your thoughts? Oh my gosh, I'm the polar opposite of the poster child for Mom You're getting both ends of the spectrum today. Yeah, yeah, no, mom. Definitely. I mean, I have all kinds of, you know, anguish about things. You know, I have like, bandleader guilt and all this kind of things, too. So it's just another one that I add to my my collection. The mom guilt. Yeah. Where does it hurt? Oh, my gosh. It's, you know, I was listening to to yesterday, I was listening to the podcast you done with Ms. Coleman. And she was talking about it really for her seems to revolve around time. And I think that's, that's absolutely yet you know, feeling that that I'm not giving my boys enough time or feeling that I'm not giving them quality time. That one is, you know, certainly is trouble. I see. So I kind of the logistics of it. Right? You know that our gigs do finish even getting home at midnight, but you know, you're not to bed for 130 or whatever. So when someone comes because they've wet the bed and then the other ones crying the knees. So you know, I mean, there's lots of nights where we're still, you know, maybe up three or four times. So then starting the day at seven, it's like okay, well we've had like five broken hours of sleep, you know, and my husband and I share duties and he's up, you know, with as well. But still we both just find really, really tired in the mornings a lot and That's hard. So then I think I see too that with Hendrix, I don't spend the same time there's a lot more TV. A lot more TV. Do it would be like 12 minutes, one little episode, you know that we're trying to get off and we're working on colors and stuff to with Hendrix, I'm like, Dude, how do you not know any of your colors? Like how do you not know these animals? Right, because no one has taught us that that was the kind of thing with do that I would sit and I would do. And now with two of them, I'm just kind of like, oh, the TV's just gonna have to teach you something today, because I don't go to the realities. The reality but I feel guilty about it, you know, I feel guilty that I'm not kind of there for my second one, in the same way that I was for the, you know, for the first child. And, and it's, it's hard. When we get busy with work, you know, we're lucky to have maybe six or seven gigs a week, regularly, you know. So sometimes we'll only have one night off. And that's hard, where I'm giving them their bath and putting them to bed once a week. And just the feeling that like there's another woman who I love and trust, but somebody else does this all the time, who gives you nighttime cuddles. So those periods are hard, but they're also kind of necessary, sort of the reality here, like, in general, there are summer season, which is about five months long. workwise is quite quiet, you know, there's less tourists, a lot of the families that are here, if they can, they, they'll take their holiday, so they might be gone back to Australia or Canada or UK wherever for two, perhaps two months. So then they're not here eating in restaurants and going out. So we do have a lot less gigs in summer than we do in the over the winter period. And that's hard to the the feeling that we have to take all the work that we can get, you know, when it's offered. I don't find that we have a lot of balance, like either summer, and we're kind of, you know, to in our fingernails a bit going, Okay, hope we can we make it by the end of the month, or it's winter. And we're just like, you know, out every night kind of thing, just just working all the time not feeling dizzy the kids? And if so, and then I think it translates into other ways, right? You know, maybe there's too many trips to McDonald's or too many little presents, or little, you know, ice cream or whatever, because it's like, my, I feel like I don't see you enough. So I just want to just want to treat you. And there are other options. You know, like here in Dubai, there's quite a nanny culture, they don't really do babysitters, and of course, because all of us, like kind of the entire population are away from our families, right? You know, like, everyone has come from all over the world to work here. So you don't have sisters and aunts and uncles and brothers who can watch the kids, you know, so you have a nanny, and they're with you, all the time. And for many people, it's not our situation, but many people have many live with them that and we often have people saying that, but if you had your nanny live with you, she would get up in the morning with the kids and you know, hey, we think about it, but also to the Trade Office, then then I do lose that part, I do lose that access to my, my kids. And you know, there's a part of me, which feels like, if certainly if we had kids in Canada, we'd be doing it all on our own, you know, we would be up and we would be tired. And we would be just like everybody else, you know, and so trying to still may have that kind of Canadian life, but at the same time, the reality is like, I get to bed at two o'clock in the morning when I'm tired when I wake up at 630 So there's no escaping. Yeah, but that's the thing that I like. I haven't heard you say once in this, even though there's always stuff I mean, obviously thinking about, you know, the how the market is gonna go but you're not saying that I don't want to do this anymore. Because of, you know, the sacrifices, the compromises that I might be making with my children. You know what I mean? Like it's, this is what is important to you at the end of the day, you know, this is this is you This is in in your heart and soul and yeah, I hope I'm getting Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I quite recently have asked myself, you know, if this is if this is right for if this is right for me, if this is right for us, and it's sort of that feeling of a lack of balance, you know, I would like to feel more balanced and and I mean, also to that logistically, the reality of it is just financially, it makes more sense for the two of us to be going out and gigging. And for us to then hire a nanny than for me to stay home. But that's not the whole story, too. When I see things like, Oh, my two year old doesn't know his car, you know? And I'm like, well, maybe I need to be here, and be teaching him those things. And, and is that what's right for us now? And also to in the sense that, you know, we think someday we'll move back to Canada, probably, you know, in the next five years. And we know, we can't do this, when we're there. So there's also that to have, do we need to be putting in place, whatever kind of work, things need to happen, you know, does it obviously involve some kind of retraining or something? And is that what I should be spending my time doing now? So that we're kind of ready for the next step. But, you know, as he said, it's kind of the, it has always pulled me back in like, I can't imagine not putting on the makeup and doing the hair and going out and, and making music with Felix, you know, it's the the reason that we're that we're together. You know, he'll he'll occasionally have other gigs with other people. And as much as I love it, and I'm happy for him. And he needs more variety than I do. Like, I'm like, No, I'm happy to just work with you to know exactly what I'm doing to have someone who I rely on 100% I don't need any kind of instability. In my life. I'm good. I got it. Whereas he'll go, he's happy to jam and happy to take on new projects and learn new things like No, no, I don't have any of that desire. But when he does things, I'm happy for him. But also there's part of me that, like, it really doesn't like that, you know, that he's gone off and is having a life without? Yeah, I mean, we literally in 16 years, like we pretty much, you know, kind of spent every minute together for that time. So yeah, it's if for better, it's far better for us. You know, it really it really is. No longer gonna backtrack, just exam that you chose wrong. Now you go back and get over it Yeah, was gonna ask you what you've got coming out. But I know, I've I don't know how to ask that. Because you've got gigs all the time, haven't you? Like? Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, because I had a look at your page of all your shows. It's like, oh, my gosh, you like that. And then, so like, it's just, it just flows on and on and on. Like you said, you have this portion of the year where it's full on full on full on, and then it's the little break time. So yeah, you just sort of ride the waves. And, yeah, it's like, you know, we describe it as a marathon out here. Right? You know, because it doesn't ever really stop. And which is great. Is you know, as you said, like it does have high season and low season to it. So, for us coming up we're getting into this season probably won't start really full on until October. Which is okay, because Theo is starting school in September. So he's never been to nursery, he was kind of about to go to nursery and then it was COVID. So then he stayed home for that two years with us. Which is a whole other like, Mom, thing my sister laughs at me, she's really okay with sending her eldest to school and I just choked all the time. I'm like, buying, you know, glue sticks and googly eyes, like crying in the grocery store. filling his school list. I, you know, he needs a uniform and I'm kind of dreading going to the store. I just don't I can't like deal with seeing him in that little uniform for the first time. So yeah. So I think actually, it'll be okay that he, you know, we'll start that and we're not super busy yet. So we'll have time to kind of transition him into that and transition us because he has to get up even earlier for us to drive him to school. You know, Oh, it's so I'm nervous about it. Because I think like, already, I'm tired. And already, it's not amazing for me, you know? How is that going to be when now we have to be up even earlier five days a week. And then when I have more gigs, how's it all gonna work? So I'm, I am really nervous about this fall season, coming in and figuring that we will just have to figure it out, as you know, as it goes along. But for us, musically, we have just started our first gig in like, four years with a full band. So that's been exciting for us to actually have, you know, bass, drums and keys again, because most of the time, and although we say most of the time as a duo, Felix is the band. So he is a guitarist, but he does all the drum programming, we work the drum machine that he plays Live, and then he does bass loops and guitar loops on top of that, and then he's doing back vocals, and he's saying the vocals, I'm just singing. I'm playing a little bit tambourine here and there. And then doing all though, like, admin stuff on whatever social media time. Yes, I do. That's all me. But, but so to have a full band is musically is really exciting again, logistically is difficult. It's kind of like, oh, yeah, and people's scheduling and issues and all this. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so it's great that we're working on that working in a new venue to so getting adjusted to, what did they want? What does the audience want? What do we think is going to work? We've just been asked to perhaps put together a gypsy jazz trio, which would be new for us, we do a little bit of gypsy jazz, but not like full on things. So trying to see if that's something that we can that we can manage. And aside from that, yeah, just mostly have work either as a duo or as a trio. We do have a few different keyboard players that we that we work with. And yeah, most of most of our gigs are restaurant or kind of restaurant lounge, this new full band one is the first one that we seen a long time where people really there's sort of like a dance floor space for them, you know. So that too, has meant Okay, well, we kind of need to rework and bring back in some of that repertoire that we haven't really bothered with for last few years because they weren't allowed to. Yeah. Yeah, and it'll just lead up by Christmas. Usually our week of Christmas is absolutely nuts been rammed, which is I just find crazy challenging. It's with two kids. So also trying to find time to steal like, create the magic of Christmas and, and it's Theo's birthday, he's a Christmas baby. So he's also kind of like finding a way to make him also birthday, maybe birthday party and, and playing, you know, Christmas Eve, usually we'll do two gigs. And Christmas day, we'll do two gigs. And every night of the week and everything. So it is, it's a tough, it's a tough time of year for me. I mean, you want to talk mom gills is kind of astronomical and have our nanny, you know, reading the Christmas story, and I really struggled with that this last year, you know, that we, we move Christmas as we need to, you know, like we celebrated on the day that we don't have to get up and go to a gig. So we did it on the 26th this year, but that still meant that on Christmas night, like she's putting out cookies for Santa and getting them in their pajamas. And I was just kind of all over the place that night. Like it was to the point where Felix even said to me, he said, you know, do we cancel that gig like you're this upset, you know, in the weeks leading up to it that you're not that you're not going to be able to be there and you know, it's a tough call right like these well paid holiday gigs you know, they're not at our usual rate. They're better than the usual rate and, and having to and maybe it'll be different every year. You know, maybe I won't make the same choice this year as to am I okay with her just sending photos of look, they're in their Christmas jammies. I'm sort of toggling between sets and then going okay, here we go, you know, celebrating Christmas with other people who are there with their families also too, which is just like that. You know, really hard on my heart and, and I, you know, I think maybe in later years it if we're still kicking around and doing this, it will be the kind of thing where maybe they can come and be with us, you know, on the on those occasions just be at those games. But right now there's just so little that, you know, and their bedtime is still early and all of that. So it's, it's, I know that it's better for them to be at home where they're well taken care of and she's doing as much of the tradition is as I have, like, left instructions were hard to do. But, but it's hard like Felix and I both are moms or elementary school teachers. So they had summers off, they had two weeks off at Christmas. So we both kind of have these very strong like holiday traditions of the families always did this and that and Christmas Eve was this kind of celebrating and then Christmas Day was that kind of celebrating. And for us we're just absent, you know, on those times. So find hope Yeah, find the holidays hard. But you know, in the other sense like we're still financially recovering from COVID so it's work work work, work, work work, work much as we can Yeah, you just sort of do what you can at the time that you make the decisions as you go and like you said next year you might feel different and then a year after you might feel different so it's like Yeah, going with what you need at the time. Yeah. And trying not to feel guilty I really love talking to you today. It's it's such a routine energy and I like have you got videos on YouTube where we can watch you perform, I want to watch you perform like your vibe is so welcoming and energizing is like awesome to have a say on stage. You know what I mean? What if you do want to see the videos with feel of which honestly, I swear there's like at full length shows there but they're on our Facebook page. So you can feel free to like scroll through the years. Seriously, just check the last five minutes because that's the start. You can skip ahead. It's fine. We're used to everyone else like tuning out and then coming back five minutes to the hour. I'm University thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum now tomorrow we live saw so simple if you lead with me love you used to be the one always man trying struggling still good seem so sad with you maybe. Monroe I love to also sample if you lead with me love me for me design but love you You know that I find it oh so hard to let go change when you say in your sweet baby start let's let them roll while we while we live in today in some some so simple if you learn to be with me they're gonna love you ever decide that you're gonna love you

Jessica Mendes Canadian watercolourist and illustrator S2 Ep28 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I chat with Jessica Mendes, an illustrator and watercolour artist from Kitchener Canada, and a mum of 2 young children. Jessica recently got serious about her art, creating a business 6 months ago as a result of wanting to have some fun and more positivity during the pandemic. She has found her niche painting portraits of homes, cards and creating keepsake art. We chat about how being a parent has influenced the way she approaches her work, how her children motivate her, how turning her hobby into a business has legitimised it for her and how your confidence levels changes through your life. Connect with Jessica's instagram https://www.instagram.com/kwgreetings/ Website - https://kwgreetings.ca/ Connect with the podcast https://www.instagram.com/art_ of_ being_ a_ mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their hours. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the volunteer people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging eldest. Thanks so much for joining me today. On this episode, I chat with Jessica Mendez, an illustrator and watercolor artist from Kitchener in Canada and a mom of two young children. Jessica recently got serious about her art, creating a business six months ago, as a result of wanting to have some more fun and positivity during the pandemic. She has found her niche painting portraits of homes and creating keepsake. Today we chat about how being a parent has influenced the way she approaches her work. How her children motivate her how turning your hobby into a business has legitimized it for her and how your confidence levels change throughout your life. I hope you enjoy so you're in Canada that's pretty I am Yeah, I haven't spoken Canada yet. So this is really perfect. I don't have the lovely accent but all your other guests I love your I can give a town that you're in. What can you just tell me a bit about it? Because I'm really fascinated with like towns and weather and all that kind of. So I live in Kitchener, which is part of like Waterloo Region. So it's like Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge, they're all kind of connected as one big city even though they're three. So we're about an hour west of Toronto, so, okay, yep. Yeah. More of a landmark for people. So yeah, so what's the weather like there now? You got snow? Yeah, not too much. It's about today was like minus seven degrees. So not too bad. But that that's pretty cool. Yeah. We haven't had like a minus 30 yet so. Oh, is that that's what's gonna happen? No, in recent years, but it definitely can happen. Oh, wow. I can't even imagine that. Because where I live, our coldest day would be like 11 or 30. Like, we don't we don't get snow we we don't get minus if it reaches a level and people are like in T shirts, they're so happy. Love that. It's nice to have a balance of both like summer and winter though. So Oh, wow. Have you always lived? Yeah, my whole life. Yeah. Makes you I've always lived in my little town I've done some looking at your beautiful artwork on your website. It's beautiful. Can you tell our listeners what you create the style that that you make and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, so I mostly use watercolor in combination with ink and then some just straight ink illustrations. I'm fairly new. I just started doing this maybe six months ago. So that's just what I've been working with. Up until this point. I started a small business and a website. Initially I started you know, doing greeting cards. Something I figured that would be something sellable. And then after you know doing it for a bit browsing Instagram and that kind of thing. Hey, I started trying a few other ideas. And I'm mainly right now have been working on the house portraits. That was kind of my biggest, like requests leading up to Christmas. And that has been really fun. I enjoy doing those a lot. So that's what I've been leaning towards mostly now. But yeah, yeah, they fantastic. Is this so unique? Like they're just Yeah, such as a special, like, beautiful thing for people to have. So yeah. And I think it's now kind of my ideas are morphing into more like keepsake art. So, yeah, things that people will hang on to like, even like pet portraits and things like that are very popular. So yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's really neat. That's lovely. So you say you've only been doing this for six months? So how did you decide to start doing this? Are you self taught? Or have? How did you get into it? Yeah, so I was interested in art quite a bit in like when I was younger, in high school, and that kind of thing. And then when I decided to, you know, study in university, and like, pursue a career, outside of the arts, I just kind of didn't really continue with it at all, like, into adulthood. I always considered myself somewhere artistic, but I just kind of let it fall away. And I kind of went more towards the science direction. And then after having children, after my second was born, during my mat leave, which I'm still on now, I just needed something to do especially like during the pandemic is there's no socializing, like, I don't know how it is there. But here's still very much not normal. So yeah, yeah. So I just, I actually decided, more that I wanted to start a business before I decided that it would be art related. Yeah. So yeah, I just wanted like the business aspect to be more of a project for myself. And then it took me a while to decide that it would be art related. I just, I wanted it to be something enjoyable and not something that felt like work so. Funny, now thinking about it, I don't really consider myself creative. I just, I have a really good attention to detail. So to me, it's why the house the house portraits are really good for me, because it's just copying and being able to see things in and copy from a reference. So I think in the beginning, when I first started this, I kind of had a hard time deciding what my style would be and what I would focus on and when I started to do those, it just felt so easy to say, I don't really have to think about what I'm creating. It's like already on a picture and I just duplicate. So yeah, that's kind of but yeah, I was always interested in that type of thing. And I took classes relating to that stuff in school and then just wanted a different direction and didn't really like make the time for it. in young adulthood and early, apparently. I'm not artistic. I mean, I'm not I can't draw. I do. I can do watercolor because it's just so freeform. So I like that but I can't. So when I see things like yours like I just, I'm in awe of it because I can't do it. I'm like, Oh, I just love it. This is so cool. Trying to use water to erase multiple mistakes you mentioned your children there briefly. Tell us about your kids. So I have two children, a son who will be three in a couple of weeks and then a daughter who will be one in also a couple of weeks. Oh, yeah, they must keep you pretty busy. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So do they sort of join in with your beauty creativity doing? Do you let them loose with the, with the watercolors? Um, my son does enjoy painting actually. Just like children's paints so far and not watercolor, but he's pretty interested in it. And if he sees me bring out my stuff when he's heading to bed. He's he's pretty interested in what I'm doing. But yeah, for the most part, I work on things when they're sleeping. Obviously, they're just too much into everything to try to deal with it when they're I can imagine you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was the name. You say you do your when they're in bed. So you obviously have some support around you to be able to do that. Yeah, so I think as of this week, I we're kind of transitioning out of a nap, daytime nap for the oldest, so I'm going to lose that kind of hour I had there. And I'm also going back to my regular job in a couple of weeks as well. Here we have a year long maternity leave a year, 18 months. But um, so yeah, other than that, I kind of have like a 730 to 9:30pm window to get things done. So yeah, my husband is really good at locking down the bed time to like, give us our evening because that's kind of our time, the kids are old enough now that they, you know, sleep in their own rooms, you know, at seven, they're in there. And it's our time. So that's really helpful. That's good, isn't it? Yeah. And yeah, you can, if you've got any ideas during the day, you can say, right, I know that time is coming up. So I'll keep that. Keep that. So you must be pretty good at working, like efficiently then like, it's like, right? Go. Yeah, sometimes I try not to, like sacrifice my sleep because that's just not good for anyone around. So yeah, I tried to buckle down if especially during Christmas, when I had you know, house purchase that I had promised to people for gifts and things I tried not to take on too many because I didn't want to turn it into something stressful. So but yeah, it's it's definitely hard to you know, by the time you bring everything out, you know, sit down you only have an hour and it flies by so yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yep. When you use talks about going back to work what what is your day job, I suppose. What's your so if I'm a scientific writer, so I work for a research company so basically my role is writing up the final reports of the results of the research for the client. Yeah, yeah. Very specific and not related to art at all Yeah. Will they be interesting I suppose being interesting. Yeah, definitely. Not very creative. But then again, I guess it goes like the structure of like copying and like you said that attention to detail so it sort of ties in with how your brain works I suppose. is a strength in my position in my day job and I get that comment a lot so I guess it is very helpful that's cool. Two of the big topics I love talking about and I say I love not because it sounds bad when I say I love it because I love talking about mom guilt. That sounds bad. I'm not I don't like knowing about people being guilty. You know what I mean? I just I find it such a fascinating topic. I just find it so interesting. And sometimes I think I should have been a psychologist because I love knowing about why people think the way they do and so mum guilt you is I think I think from what I've discovered with talking to other mums in Australia, and then I've chatted to some in the US, it's something that is quite universal. Is that something that you've you've seen over there in Canada as well? I don't know if it's like a newer term, or I hadn't heard of it, obviously, until I was a parent. But yeah, that's definitely a daily occurrence. I feel like for me, just, I mean, I think the definition of it would just be like, feeling like you're not meeting the standards that you think you should be as a parent? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, obviously, it for the most part is silly. Because if you care that much about your children and how you're raising them, you're doing a fine job. So I, in terms of like, my artwork, and my personal projects, like I don't feel guilty, relating to that, especially because I, you know, focus on that stuff in the evening. Like, it's not taking time away from my kids. So. Yeah, so. But I think, for me, the biggest guilt I feel is, you know, after attending to their needs all day, I don't, I might not have the energy to be like, as fun as I want. Or, you know, so that's like, the main thing that I don't know, the main issue, I feel. Especially with them being so young, too. It's like you, you're giving so much of yourself to these people. And then it's like, what's left for me sort of thing. It's just, you know, cooking and changing their diapers and like them, like, have I smiled at them. And then you kind of have to, like, put in that extra energy to see, you know, yeah, I can understand. Identity is the other big topic that I love. Did you did you go through a bit of a shift when, when you did become a mum, did you see the way that you saw yourself? Changing quite dramatically or had it? I think it was a bit of a shock. How are consuming like parenthood is, like, no one can really describe it to you beforehand. So yeah, it's kind of that. I'm the type of person that when I decide I want to do something, I act on it immediately. So it's that feeling of like, although you're caring for children all day, at the end of the day, you feel like you've accomplished nothing. So it's kind of like, frustrating, it's like, what is the point of this almost, even though it's super important? Like, I don't know how to really explain that. But yeah, it's kind of like you're just floating along and your day is so boring in a way. And so monotonous. It's like the same thing. Yeah, same thing every day. So and yeah, that spontaneity of being able to do something when you whenever you wanted to, or you said, you, if you want to do something, you want to just go do it. That's all sort of taken away from you. When you have the children I suppose. A bit yeah, just to I mean, really, the art definitely I like when I get an idea to its I want to start on it, I want to, you know, improve on it right away and have to wait all day and I only have an hour and it's that is probably the most difficult part of this whole business thing and this extra work that I put on myself. Yeah, but But saying that do you feel like it's really important for you to have that that outlet for yourself? That sort of feel feels that that need for you to make make or do something for yourself? Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, prior to starting Well, I started this more like I said, when like our evenings became our own again, like when my daughter was around six months. And at that time, I was just kind of like, use the time that you need to like clean or do laundry and just boring things or if I wanted to like sit down I would just you know like scroll the news which is so negative during this time, so I just, I just wanted something that was fun and more positive. And it ended up being like a really good thing that I chose to do. And prior to this, I, I hadn't used social media for probably three or four years leading up to this. So and I wasn't a fan of it. And I that was an aspect of it that I didn't really look forward to. But there is like a really big art community on there that is really positive and supportive, which is that was like a cool thing to discover when I started that. So. Yeah, that's, it's the thing I find. I don't know about you. But I really like Instagram, as opposed to Facebook, like I love. I love looking at me versus Yeah, and I, and there's doesn't seem to be as I mean, I don't know how I might use it different to other people. But I just love looking at things like I'm really visual kind of person. And I don't, I don't really click on unless it's something I really want to read. I don't click on everyone's comments and read heaps of comments. I just I'll read the person that posted it. And then I'll sort of keep looking at pretty things. Whereas Facebook, it's just so I don't know, everyone just trashy. Yeah, that's the best. Yeah, just kind of has become. Yeah. And that was more the more used, like, platform when I left social media. And so now it's it's so interesting to see how much businesses rely on Instagram and stuff now, which I said, like when I started this, that, Oh, I wish I would have, you know, continued on with this when I was younger, it would have been, what would it have been now if I would have kept with it, you know, 10 years ago. But at that time, you know, social media wasn't really the thing it is now so I don't know if it would have been anyway, it's kind of hard to look at it. Yeah, it's hard to know, too, isn't it? Because I often think about that with my, with my singing because I put so much stuff off until I'm, you know, I'm in my 40s now, and I'm finally doing stuff with it. But then I think I wouldn't have had all the material that I have to write about now. Yeah. So I figured things do happen when they happen. Yeah, try not not even, I don't even think I would have had the confidence to like have a business when I was younger either. And when you're older, you especially when you become a parent, you don't have the energy to care about what people think of you and you just do whatever you want. I'm going to take that, and I'm going to make it quite out of that. Because that is definitely say that the new episode. I love that. In a nutshell, though, seriously, isn't it? Like you've got you put so much energy into the important stuff in your life and all this other rubbish? She's like, Yeah, whatever. Like, it's just, it's background noise, like you just don't get caught up in. I guess most of your work now is you focused on creating your, your work for clients, I suppose. But do you do your kids influence your work at all? Um, I wouldn't really say so much like the actual content. I mean, I have been thinking about since it's like keepsake art, things relating to like, you know, newborn births, or like birth announcements and that type of stuff, which you would have never considered before. Yeah, and only consider myself a kid person at all. But I will tell you just more, you know, now that I've started it, and turn this into a business and kind of have like those, oh, it'd be amazing. This could become a real job kind of thing. I think they like motivate me in that aspect. Because if that were to happen, I think it would result in a more like a better, like family work life balance for all of us. So I don't know, I think that would be really cool. If that was something I I mean, being your own boss and be. Yeah, pretty nice. I think just instead of you know, working the regular nine to five, I mean, it's not too bad now, like, we're still everyone here is pretty much working from home. So that helps. But prior to the pandemic, I also had an hour commute to work. Yeah, so that took away a lot of time and it was really stressful when my son went to daycare and I felt like I only saw him an hour a day and that Marine, you know, so it's it's much better now. You know, it's funny a lot of people I talk to, and like not saying that the pandemic is good in any way, but the silver lining of that is been fingered have been, you know, so close to their families, like physically there with their families, and giving, giving your time to sort of put in perspective, like what's really important in your life, too. I think just saying things in a different way. It's like, just because we've always done things a certain way doesn't mean that's how we have to do things going forward. So yeah, definitely, I think that will change permanently for a lot of people like for my job as well, which I'm really grateful for. Especially with the age, like our children, we've been home, we have not gone back to work in person since it started and like, they have changed so much in that time, like they would have been in daycare for the majority of it if we wouldn't, if we hadn't been home. So, yeah. Think the fact that I decided to turn my hobby into a business, like as a parent really helped me to, like justify the time I'm spending on it. And I don't know if that's good or bad, but it works for me. And so it's kind of like, I treated the same way I would, as a request from my normal job, you know, so it's like, okay, I, I can't do the dishes, I have something to do. You know. And I think that's kind of like, oh, and or, you know, I have to do this because it's, it's gonna make me a little bit of extra money. That kind of forces me to put time into it. Whereas if it was strictly a hobby, and you know, I was just throwing my artwork in the cupboard. I probably would just choose not to do it if there was so many other things to be done. So I think for me, that's just a positive thing about it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's like it gives you that that legitimacy, I suppose in your mind. It's like, this is important, too. This is this is a value and yeah, yeah. Yeah. As long as I just I don't my husband always asked me like, is this feeling like a chore at all? Is it still enjoyable as I as I guess if it becomes like, too much, then maybe I have to take a step back and look at how I'm doing things. But right now it's so okay. Yeah, good on you. Yeah, that's great. I love it. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Join Dez and Eva as to business besties. Building a global tribe having real world conversations about all things motherhood, in the mum bosses abroad Podcast, the podcast that empowers you as a boss to make confident and smart choices for you and your family. Whether you're staying at home, running your own business, pursuing a corporate career or working that side hustle, you are absolutely 100% A man boss. And if you're doing all this while living abroad, well you're simply fantabulous all the way un find the mum bosses abroad podcast, anywhere you get your podcasts

Amy Siegfried US podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep56 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Amy Siegfried, a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa Oklahoma, USA and a mother of 1 - AKA The Tiny Human. Originally from Las Vegas, Amy’s athletic career was short-lived, but she fell in love with the world of sports. That learned love for sports came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports, working as an intern in a Major League Baseball Club. She’s lived internationally, which provides her with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought, as women, we are constantly hurdling unrealistic expectations, but what if we could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy finally founded her company Last Night's Game with her brother. It was born out the idea of how do you go to work in a that male dominated world and converse in sports, Not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like foods, travel, celebrity gossip and music associated with significant sporting events. Think, the Super Bowl Half Time show, WAGS, sports fashions and off the field goings on. They launched their email publication and website first, then 4 years later the podcast Sports Curious was born. They believe in short and sweet, emails are about a 3-4 minute read, and podcasts max of 5 minutes, supplying interesting tid bits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing, partnerships and public relations and she has also presented a TedX speech . Today we chat about women supporting each other, celebrating your wins, and having each other's back rather than judging each other. Last Night's Game on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Watch Hoda Kotb's induction speech Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Amy Siegfried. Amy is a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa, USA. And as a mom of one originally from Las Vegas. Amy's athletic career was short lived, but she fell in love with the world of sport. That learn to love for sport came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports working as an intern in a major league baseball club. She's lived internationally, which provides him with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought as women were constantly hurdling, unrealistic expectations. But what if she could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy founded her company last night's game with her brother. It was born out of the idea of how do you go to work in a male dominated world and converse in sports, not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like food, travel, celebrity gossip, and music associated with significant sporting events. Think the Superbowl halftime show WAGs sports fashions and the off field goings ons. They launched their email, publication and website first then four years later, the podcast entitled sports curious was born. They believe in short and sweet emails are about three to four minute read and podcasts and maximum of five minutes supplying interesting tidbits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing partnerships and public relations. And she's also presented a TEDx speech. Music used in today's episode is from LM Joe, an Australian New Age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to the podcast. Amy. It's a real pleasure to meet you and to have you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So we're about to you at the moment. You're in the US. Yes, I am in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Oklahoma. For those who are not familiar, I just write about as I like to call it Texas, the Texas hat. So just because there's like a cowboy hat to Texas. That's a cool way of describing it. Right. Right. Well, I'm from Las Vegas, and most people have heard of Las Vegas. So from Yeah, so you're originally from Las Vegas. So you've lived in other places around the world to whereabouts have you? Have you been? We Well, I've lived across the couple places in the US obviously from he lived in Phoenix. And we lived in Singapore and now we live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah, that'd be pretty exciting living in Singapore. It was a it was a really exciting and someone actually asked me yesterday if I missed it, and I said, Yes. There's certainly pluses and minuses to everything being 26 hours of flying time away from your family is a little far but there's so many wonderful things. And I said to someone, like what do you miss my, the food and the diversity? I just love the mix of people and, and that's what I really learned to appreciate. And I think the more that I've traveled, the more I've understood I understand that. Basically everyone's the same we all want the same few things for ourselves for our families, and its safety, its food, and you know, we want to be happy to have good health and so I mean, that's truly what we all want and the more you travel the smaller the world becomes. Because that same it's the same inner woven vein through no matter where you live. what language you speak. Yeah, yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Like because often we say oh, we're all so different and blah blah But yeah, when it comes down to it we all we all have our needs our basic human needs for survival. Yeah, right. That's really all I mean, when it comes down to it when when all things hit the fan like that's all you really need in the in the, in the in the big pictures and so on. Think that's just really interesting part of everyone bonds over food and different things, and maybe different food and maybe different drink. But everybody bonds over food and different things. So it's really kind of fun. And that was one big thing. We traveled a lot. We always had cooking classes. Ah, that was a great way to get into learning just local food and local currency cultures. And why this ingredient versus that? And so it's kind of interesting. And like, yeah, what's important? What do they value? Why do they use what they use? And? Yeah, that's really cool. I love that insert. So you are a podcaster, amongst other things, I know you do a lot of different things. But tell us about your podcast, because it's really cool. You're very kind. Thank you. So I created a company called last night's game I brothers, also my co founder. And I'll give you a quick synopsis of it. But it was born out of the idea. I used to work in major baseball, I worked for the Arizona tax. And I had all these girlfriends who knew nothing about the world of sports. And we were in our early 20s. And I thought how do you go to work in a male dominated industry of manufacturing, or law or whatever that might be? And not have even just a baseline of what's happening? You'd have no idea. It's some big, maybe the Olympics, they might know. But I mean, it's one of those where they don't have and if there's a scoop, the Superbowl or whatever that might be. So how do you go in the office and not have just that baseline? And so I called my brother who was in high school at the time, in turn. So I was making 525 an hour. And, you know, okay, we need to figure out how we teach our friends about sort of the interesting side of sports, the not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. The interesting things about sports, why? Kind of like cooking, like, Why do you have this ingredient versus this ingredient? And, and so he was like, that's a really great idea. And me, but I'm in high school and you work 80 hours a week. So no. And so that was 14 years before we started last night's game. And when we were moving back from Singapore, I realized that no one was hiring because it was Thanksgiving in the US, and no one really hires between Thanksgiving and New Years. And so we I sort of said, Okay, well, I have about a month and a half to sort of let's give this a shot. And so we started that, and it was ugly. In the beginning. You know, we were it was not a pretty product by any stretch of the imagination. And so we rolled that out. And about, probably four years after we rolled out our email, I'll try weekly email publication and our website, we rolled out a podcast and the way we do our email publication, as well as our podcast is we believe in short and sweet. Emails are about a three minute read, you can click for more information if you want it, but just briefly, the headlines if you'd like. And then the podcast is about five minutes. And we cover sort of what's happening in the world of sports at this time. Typically, it's around that something like a five things to know about. We just did five things about the Masters was just last week, I want to talk about major league baseball season. And we'll do stuff about Earth Day, actually, this week on the podcast. And so we we sort of tried to cover things that are interesting that you might be able to start a conversation with someone who was a sports person. And well, the way I always see sports, and I use it myself this way is it's a great foray into conversation. But it also has this great plethora of roads out of the sports conversation, you can talk about food, you can talk about travel, maybe you want to tweak and fashion, celebrity gossip, I mean, you can really weave it all in together. And so that's how we kind of we talk about sports, and that's how we cover them. And because no one no one's interested in, you know, the stats, and this and that they really want to know the stories. And that's how we all talk, right? We talk about the stories of our travels or whatever that might be. So our kids, whatever that might be. So that's kind of how we cover sports. Something makes it interesting, huh? No, I love that because you're right, it can be incredibly intimidating because it isn't, it's a man's world. It you know, we're trying to make it better. And over here in Australia, we have the women's football, the AFL football league, and we have women's soccer and we have women's cricket. But, you know, we're always seen as like the poor cousin of the men's game, which is unfortunate. So in that it can feel very daunting to try and converse. Enter a sports world because you feel like you're going to be judged because you're right to start with unless you know what you're talking about. So your episodes they're short, sweet to the point how often do you bring out your episodes? Where every week? Yeah, every once in a while we'll roll out a bonus episode on something. But yes, every week so it's been it's been fun. It's just in my whole theory is or email publication. It is Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. And the podcast is once a week because I feel like if you're truly not in the ESPN Sports World, then you are. You're trying to digest what you read. And I think sometimes there's so much information coming out of you. So if you can have a day or two to digest what you read in your email, or a day or two or week to listen to that podcast, even though it's short, it gives you a chance to process and then execute it in your conversations. That's it, isn't it? You can put it put into practice test it out. Exactly. That's exactly give it a whirl Yeah. I want to ask you, what was it like being a woman working in that bus baseball environment. It was interesting. Now there my now I worked in the Community Relations Department in the foundation. So we were female, heavy in that department. But it was definitely different. It was definitely interesting, because it truly is a man's world. And you kind of have to get in there. And I probably blame them for my mouth, spews four letter words, and some of those other things. But it's it's definitely, it's an adjustment. And it's it's really interesting because you are in it even more. So in a man's world, you're in a world of men, where a lot of them were always told how great they were always built up. Because there are these athletes, there are these celebrities, if you will. And I will tell you 99.9% of them are fantastic. Their dads, their brothers, their husbands, they're great men. And so that is I mean, I don't want to give anybody a bad, a bad reputation at all. But it was definitely one of those things that you had to be mindful as a woman of what you were doing, where you were, who you were with. And so that's kind of just one of those things that you really do have to, you know, and stand your own ground when it came to things where they maybe things maybe got uncomfortable. There were comments you made. I got really good at just sort of rushing off and giving a hard time and going alright, well move along here type of thing. So it's kind of it's funny how you just, it's a life skill, though. You know, when I met my husband, my father in law has that personality where he always tries to make comments or funny things. He always tries to like get under your skin and not in like a mean way. But he wants to get your reaction. Yeah. And so I had that skill from the My Work in baseball that really turned into a benefit of giving my shit my short, witty comebacks to him where I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, well, let me get you on this one. Yeah. So yeah, it's definitely likes going out, I would just say it's one of those things that if as long as you, you respected yourself, you really were You were fine. You really had to push for what you wanted, though. And for who maybe career jobs because there were certain jobs that women just didn't do. And we have our first there's a woman who's Alyson Aiken, who's the AI. She's about a year and a half into her career as a baseball coach for Major League Baseball team. And she's the first woman to coach on the field. She's an assistant baseball coach for the San Francisco Giants. And so it's neat to see you know, baseball, we have an in football, we have quite an American football, we have quite a few female coaches, not head coaches. But they're factored in there in one way or another. So it's nice to see that these women are pushing through that boundary and saying, I don't care that this is a locker room situation. I'm a good coach, I'm really good at what I do. I'm the best you can hire. Forget that. I'm a woman. I'm the best that that's out there. And so it has been really neat and really motivating to see women step up into those roles. And and we talked a little bit about earlier about women in sports, but it's been really neat. So we have the the March Madness college basketball tournament that happens here in the US, the men's tournament in the women's tournament, and it's a whole bracket single elimination that drives the country crazy for a month, and just solid basketball. And this year, they've really built up the women's tournament. And the numbers have gone through the roof because people are watching because great basketball, great sport. They're very talented. And so that is really neat for us as a company that covers sports. You know, we cover the headlines. And so sometimes that is maybe mostly American football versus throwing in something, but it's mostly going to be men's sports. That's what people are talking about. But I really love turning on ESPN here and having the break the first story of Sports Center, a women's sports story. And that to me is really cool because where we've tried to we definitely I will say that definitely because we're women women lead that I steer the conversation toward women's sports where I can So it's really neat to not have to steer it because it's all of a sudden, it's already missing on its own. And that is a really cool thing to see even in. We've been around for about six years. And so it's been really nice to see how that has worked in covering sports in general. You know, with the beginning, it was, let's talk about so and so's wife or girlfriend. And now it's turned into Rockstar was out there taking, taking names, doing what she does best. And that's really cool, huh? Yeah, that would that would be a really interesting part of what you're doing is being able to watch that evolution. And let's hope it continues to go. I hope so, too. And I think that leaves a lot of faith and motivation for women's sports in other countries. I mean, I look we're we're heading to Australia for the Women's World Cup next year. Yeah. Right. And so we have a dear friend who lives in Perth, so we're gonna go visit him and go to some games with our kiddos. And I look forward to if it's the right season. What else can we fit in there? What else can we see? And, you know, learning for me, he also did a our friend Toby. So shout out to you, Toby. Did a whole write up for us on rugby. Yes, that's a whole thing that we're slowly with. We've kind of grown more lacrosse than rugby. But it's really a fun sport that people my brother played rugby in college. And so it's neat to learn so much about and it's fun to, for us to bring a different perspective on the world. And sports just joins, they join together. And so it's really neat to be able to share some of those insights into other sports that maybe are more much more popular in other countries. Absolutely, yeah. And then I think the closest we get to yours, your American football is obviously Super Bowl. That is like they put it on Morning, probably like 10 o'clock in the morning. And of course everyone wants to see who's like the halftime show is like the biggest thing in the world. But that in itself, you know, connects people even though a lot of us don't get what's happening, but they were involved in the spectacle, you know, they they you get caught up in the whole atmosphere of it and you can sort of, you know, relate to some aspect of it to allow you to join in and and have fun with it, I guess even if it is just the halftime show. Right? That's I think that's why Super Bowl is just our favorite because it does take into account the game itself and that's interesting because you can tell stories about the players but there's so much that happens around the Superbowl and that's, you know, once again, going back to food and I think I'm gonna screw up the numbers. I think it's like 6 billion chicken wings are eaten in the US on Super Bowl Sunday. It's obscene. And it's just so it's so neat to look at the commercials and all the other things that we see in the last Super Bowl was in LA as you have this huge celebrity presence and that's just a really like that is a perfect storm for someone like last night's game because we love the non sporting side of that and that really get does give everyone something to talk about. Yeah, that's it's like, yeah, he cares about the game but what was what a singer seeing and what were they aware about the game? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your family. You mentioned the kids, you're gonna bring them out to Australia to come to the to the soccer we call soccer Night Football. What do you call over there? Do you call it soccer or football? We call it soccer. Ecosa. Yeah, we call it soccer. And then sometimes we call it football. Depending if the if the Europeans are around it gets cold. Let's take a fusing because we've got AFL out like Australian rules football. And then we've also got Rugby League, and we've got rugby union. So there's like four different footballs. So the black and white one, that's the one we're going with. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So I have a little munchkin and he is three and a half. I affectionately refer to him as the tiny human. And, you know, he's just he's been trying to break in here for the past few minutes. And he's a he's a great little dude. And so we'll bring him on his first big trip to Australia and I think we're taking him to Singapore to figured why we're in Perth. You might as well take the five hour flight north. Oh, yeah, go check out go back to Singapore because we haven't been back since. Since we moved in 2015. So I'm really looking forward to that and it can be neat. I love I love showing him. Women who could do great things in sports and I have this big this big thought process. sense of women really need to be able to teach their children or coach their kids sports teams. And because I think that's important for them to see leadership in all facets, you know, they see they see us lead in the home, probably work or whatever else we might do. But that's one spot where you could also lead and I mean, I'm not going to coach high school football, because I know nothing about what football strategy. But you know, it's, it's really interesting, too. We're on where he's playing in his first soccer team share, and he's three and a half. And, I mean, he's mostly about digging holes in the dirt, and crying on the sideline and snacks, which is fine. All fine. We're there we try. Well, we tried to get him to go into the game. But um, you know, it's like that. So next year, I'm going to put my hand up and say, How can I? How can I help because I think it's important for them to see that leadership and, and not just the moms coaching the girls teams, but the moms coaching the boys teams. And so I think that's just, you know, it's one more step of leadership where we continue to show our children how we can lead. And when they're that little, it's, it's the time commitment is much different than obviously when they're much, much older. But I just I feel like that's just another way to, can you just show up and continue to show we're just as worthy as anybody else to lead a team, and to continue to motivate a group. So I don't know. I don't know, I can't motivate my own child to get on the field. So I'm not sure how that works for everybody else. But I can relate to that story about your son is my little fella. He's now 14. He here, like Australia is a big sporting country like clear sport culture, especially in a country town. Yeah, you know, winter is footy and netball, and summer is tennis, and cricket. Like that's it. And for a child, that's not a massive leap, interested in sport that's really challenging. And we learned pretty early on that Alex wasn't going to be a traditional sports player. We tried to get him to play soccer. And I remember he just used to run around, there was a little boy, he just used to run around with him. And they'd just be off down the end of the page, doing whatever else is concentrating really hard and take it really seriously and then just like, rolling around. Well, like, Okay, this is our Sunday morning. So yeah. So what does he do? What did he what kind of activities did he get into, he ended up he played baseball for a while, actually. Okay. And he really enjoyed that, because we worked out that he liked things that changed often. And okay, everybody got a turn, because the thing with soccer, it's unless you're very good, you're not going to get near that ball. So I think he worked out pretty quick that he wasn't at the level that perhaps some other kids were and then he was getting left out. So that led to the messing around sort of thing. But, you know, baseball is awesome, everyone lines up, everyone gets a bat, it changes quick, as often they'll get out, you know, three, three year out, and off, they go. And then you run out into the field for a while and you mess around out there for a bit and they become daisies. And so that was was perfect for him. He did that for I think probably three seasons. And now he's he's doing some music and some other things. But yeah, it was really except for you with creativity. Oh, it was just really good. My other son's gonna be completely different. It's like, we're trying to actually just wait till he gets a bit older because he will do anything. So we're sort of don't want to start just driving him around to everything. Be careful what you wish for. Yes. Yeah, he's gonna I think he will take that traditional route. But yeah, I don't know. It's an as a country town in Australia, baseball hasn't been a massive thing. You know, certainly they have the teams in, in the cities. But, you know, games like that are awesome. And I had no exposure to baseball growing up. So that was a real learning curve, for me working out how the game actually flowed. And was that was that? I don't know, the foul balls used to get me all the time. Like, why are they trying to catch it? And so they were found like, ah, you know, it's it's a learn and and that's I think that's the most interesting thing about sports is you can learning something new and like, it's like cricket. I knew nothing about cricket minus, you have the bowler and a couple of different things. And there's tiebreaks that I mean, I'm here for yes, we have. I mean, I'm here for that. It's just so funny. It's like wait, because Matt, you go to a sporting event that can last for five days, but And so but it's so neat to to continue to evolve and learn and when you can find a team or someone to get on board with so when we moved to Singapore, they have an F Formula One race there. We'd never watched Formula One. I'm a daughter of a mechanic and car guy and so I would why NASCAR and we watch all the race car stuff. Yeah, but I've never watched Formula One. And we thought, Well, my husband thought, well, we need to kind of learn this because it's happening like right in front of our house. And so it was so fun. Because once you get into it, and you start paying attention, you start learning all the little quirks, you start learning all the little things and the different characters, right, have different athletes. And so it's I wish that some of those sports were more readily available for us to see in the US. And because I do think there's just such a cool opportunity to learn and to dive in. And if you ever need a one on one on any sports, just holler because I have it. So we have a we have a bunch of them on our website, because it is it's sports, gambling, sports, betting and those kinds of things that make the game more fun or might get you involved somehow. And so it's how you make it. Once again, going back to how do you make it relatable? Yeah. interested? Just a little bit. Yep. Now I love that. Two things are just thought of when we're talking about that. I love Formula One. And we had our Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne, just last weekend, which was just so great. That I've had a friend I worked with who was watching drive to survive on Netflix, the show about the whole thing, which apparently isn't in Perth isn't perfectly true. Apparently, there's some drivers who have said that they, you know, change the plot slightly. We I mean, it's going to be interesting for television, I can understand that. Right, exactly. But since she was watching that, now, she's really interested in watching them in real life. So that is really cool. I've heard from quite a few people, actually. Yeah, and you're right, like the characters like it's literally like you have the goodie in the battery. And it can be set up any way you like to take it. But this is pretty exciting. I like I'm liking where this is going. But also what you said about over the years, like I'm a big course racing fan. And a lot of the races you'll go to around here they have a have the fashions on the field where you can get dressed up and win prizes and stuff. And I, a lot of people have come to the races with me because they want to dress up. And then when they get there, then I try and explain to them how to put a bed on or you know how to follow this particular trainer or like pick them out by the colors or, you know, you go down to the stalls and see the horses and but that's the thing that what that's what brings them in, and then they can, you know, get involved in whatever way they want. That's exactly it. Yeah, it's that little hook, just like your son. And he, once he realized that you need something that changed a little more rapidly. That got him involved. And so that's once you get that little hook, then you start to develop all that around it. And it is really neat. And it's neat to see how they've they've started. I mean, now that you have all these different TV streaming platforms that they're they're taking these stories like drive to survive and different things that they're making them interesting, where you're getting a little bit more of the behind the scenes and the human interest story of a sport versus just the stuff you see on the actual game. Yeah. And I think that's as a woman, I think it's you need to make connections with people. I think like that's what I mean. That's what certainly draws me to Formula One. Like I love hearing the drivers what they're thinking and they do have a lot of access to people these days, like people are very generous with their time. And I love watching them talk about Formula One again, but before a race didn't have me they do have the Sky News in the sky in the UK have the the rights for and they do this pit, the pit lane walk and they will walk through the actual crowd of all the drivers are actually on the grid, they're actually ready to drive. And then we'll walk through and chat to like maybe the race director or the chief engineer, whatever, and people are just, they'll just chat for like two or three seconds and off they go. And the access to people is incredible these days, which is amazing. And then like you get to know the race directors like people love toto like they people have their favorite people that they go for because they've made a connection with a person. So they go for that chain, you know. So I think that's a massive part and that's the thing that I think for so long, having been in charge and I'm putting that in inverted commas air quotes of sport only gave it was only sort of interesting from one perspective, it was interesting from what was on the field or what was on the track or whatever. But you get women involved in you get the behind the scenes and you find out that Christian Horner is married to one of the Spice Girls you know, you find out all this stuff that you wouldn't have men because men don't care about but as women we're like interested in people. So we bring so much to the sporting world. That's a really and I think that is a truly that that gives you a buy in if you will to a team or a driver because the more you I mean that's really think about it when you go to a sporting event. As a kid if you get a t shirt or you catch a ball or you get an autograph or whatever you have any sort of interaction with that team besides just showing up and eating up you know pretzel or some popcorn, it continues to get that buy in right now you have an affinity, you feel like you have an affiliation to that team. And so the more that we can buy into really learning to love a team and whoever that might be, whether it's an athlete or the story behind a team, I think it's so important. I mean, it truly is, it goes into that whole branding perspective, right of the more you can tell your story, and direct the conversation you want it to be, the more you're going to get people to buy in and get excited about it. So I think it's, I think it's awesome. And you're seeing a little bit of that here. There's still some sports that are US sports are a bit resistant to that. But you're for the most part, you're seeing a lot of them who are progressive, saying, all right, sure. Let's put a microphone on the guy and you know, in the outfield, or whatever, our preseason covered a preseason training on HBO. And so it's been it's it's neat to see. And, you know, I always talk about sports and the way I kind of rationalized because we first started last night's game, people were like, oh, it's sports for dummies and like, Well, no, because nobody's a dummy. Everyone's smart at their own thing. And so I think to me, I look at that and say, Okay, this is just another tool in your tool belt, you know, we watch the news to have information about what's going on in the world. And we whatever we're into, we might study or craft or follow people on Instagram and learn different things. And this is just one more tool in our tool belt to be successful. And I think that, to me, that's walking into a conversation being able to pull from a couple of different hats that I might have, and say, Okay, I'm talking to this guy here from Texas, I bet I could talk to him about, I don't want to talk to him about politics, because that's just messy. But you know, I could probably talk to about football, because it's football season, whatever that might be. And so it's just having that extra armor, to be able to kind of conversation, that extra tool to be able to shift a conversation into what is comfortable for you, allows you to create that someone, and hopefully a lasting relationship. Hmm, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Not? I love it. I think it's awesome. And you're right. It's not saying it for Dummies, you're not? You're not like teaching people the rules of something like you're actually you're like you said, you're relating it to, to an aspect of real life, I suppose. And so then it allows you to bring it into life without, you know, you're not memorizing stats or that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah, it's a really, what's the word? I can't think of what the word I was thinking of. But anyway, that word, this is like that. Your son is three and a half. So how do you find the time to do all this stuff? How does it work? Well, it definitely helped. So I went back to school to get my, my MBA when he was one and a half. And that happened to be about three months before everything locked down for COVID. So that was a whole perspective shift. I already knew my life was going to be busy. And busier, if you will. And so it's kind of funny how, you know, the reason I did that is I love to continue to learn, I love to continue to evolve. And I was talking to a friend who had earned her master's. And she's like, do it now. Because when they're seven or eight, you're missing birthday parties, you're missing baseball games, and they know you're gone at one and a half, they don't know you're gone. And so that was a huge, I think it took me as if people know, when you become a parent, whatever you did before, I don't know, you know, you're like you could get that everything done in two and half the time because you're just you have to consolidate your time and your work effort. And so I would say that I've just learned to work at this little more of an elevated perspective and an elevated pace. And so, you know, it's it's also for me, it's trying to figure out how to streamline things. That's a big piece of what we do because it's my brother and I and he works halftime. He's sort of my sports. He's my information cultivator. He's the one bringing in the information. Given that to me, I write it we handle all the writing I do all the editing for the podcast, social all the things. For me, it's I feel like that sorry, this is a very roundabout way to answer your question. No, no, go for it. But it It's streamlining work. And that is truly streamlining it to make sure I can get done. When I get done in my, my timeframe I've given myself, but also giving myself a little bit of a break. And that's something I didn't do during school that I've had to reteach myself is, you know, I get up early I work usually before he wakes up, I get everybody out the door that I work in, during the day, and then I pick him up from school about five o'clock. And somewhere in there, I try to get in a workout just to keep my sanity. And then we do dinner. And some days I go back to work after bedtime. And some days I don't. And that's one thing, like I said, I had to kind of retrain my brain because after, during school, after bedtime, I would get to my computer and do schoolwork, probably till midnight, one o'clock, and then get back up again at five o'clock and go all over again. And so I actually found that I'm more productive. When I give myself a break at night, I give myself time to decompress, and start over in the morning, I feel so much more mentally refreshed, I sleep better because I'm not closing my laptop at 1030 and trying to go to bed at 1045. And so it's it's it's a tough lesson to learn. But I've just learned to kind of reprioritize things and I use a project management software called Asana. And that's how I keep track of everything because it allows me to prioritize, but also see that full list that I can prioritize move things around as we need to. And so that is, to me is really important. And I'm trying to make my family a priority to and myself a priority because I believe that, you know, you truly need to put at the airplane you need put your oxygen mask on first, because if you can't breathe, nobody else is going to be able to do that. So I really do try to factor in those little things that might be a 30 minute workout. And sometimes that's in the morning, sometimes it's in lunch over the lunch hour, sometimes it's, you know what I've got, I'm going to pick them up from school sweaty, because I've just jumped I it is what it is, that keeps my sanity. And so I'm working from home too, that's any way you can get a break to just take a 10 minute walk outside around the neighborhood and come back. And especially on those big writing days where I'm trying to create a lot of content, that break is just huge. And so it's really funny to say I do less to do more. But I've kind of found attempted to find this happy medium of continuing to fuel myself and allow myself to grow, while also busting my butt while I am in front of my computer. That's that's really valuable. I think because a lot of I think there's been this culture, for a while of just going hard getting it done, you know, this hustle, I'm putting that in air quotes again, you know, you've just got to keep going and keep going and get it all done. And then at the expense of what you know, your relationships, your health, you know, everything falls apart. So it's awesome to hear that you've got that, that sort of balance that works for you. Because I'm just reminded of this, you know, when you sit, you're scrolling Instagram, and you see things come up and you just pause for a moment, then you keep going. There was there was one the other day about, we've started to see rest as well, we have been seeing rest as a reward, rather than a thing that's actually required to, to keep us sane, to keep us healthy to increase productivity. So I feel like there's, there's another little shift going on, where people are saying, hang on a minute, this isn't sustainable. We can't, we can't keep doing this. Right. And when when we're working from home, there's no separation between work and home at that point. So you might change rooms, but you're still in the same scenario. And so, you know, for for fitting for all of us it you've got to find that, that that space to just step away. And that's kind of what I've started doing at work too though, when when I first started working from home full time, you know, I'd get up and do the dishes or I'd throw it a little laundry or something like that. Yeah, now I've just said no laundry happens on Saturday. You need something watch beforehand, throw it in like it can sit there or you watch it yourself. But it's one of those where I'm not distracting myself with other tasks. Yeah, try not to distract myself with that it's focusing on when I'm at work I try to just do it like I'm at an office like I'm at work I'm working. Yeah, and so that way I'm not the dishes get done at the end of the day or when I make lunch or whatever that might be so yes, trying to define those little compartmentalize the best we can which I know that's really not our best skill as women. Yeah, but I think it's really really good what you're saying about like setting those boundaries even though we are at home and doesn't mean we have to be in like mum mode and you know, set the set the washing machine Shane and quickly go hang it out. Because it's a nice day, you know? Right. Like, yeah, you're right, keeping that the cup compartmental I can't say that we get to compartmentalize one, it's hard. I mean, you're creative as well. I mean, it's when you're in a creative space, you really do have to focus. Because if you start to think, oh, the dishes are dirty, oh, I just heard the dishwasher go off, I'll go empty that you can't you really, I mean, I work in house by myself, but I still put my headphones in. Because it just blocks out all that ancillary noise and allows me to focus because I can't write if I'm hearing the garbage truck drive by and all those things. And so it's when sometimes you just when you're in that creative headspace, you need to just just check the world out the best way you can. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's cool. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. One of the lovely topics I love to talk about with all my moms is mom guilt. And I realized that it comes in all forms, or it may not come at all. And that's great. That's one of the great things about talking about it. So what's your thoughts on mommy guilt? Amy? I think it I think it is alive and well, at least in my house. And I have, I mean, it ranges from you just lose your patience with them. And you snap and you're like, Okay, that was probably not the best move by me. But also, you were being really horrible. And I can't take it anymore to the fact that sometimes you have to say, Hey, bud, I gotta finish this, this needs to be done for work. When I'm done, I'll come play with you, whatever that might be insert activity here. And it's, but it's alive. And well. And it's really interesting. So I do a lot of chats on my Instagram stories. And I talk a little about the mom guilt and how that is tough on days when it snows it's a snow day and you're stuck at home with your kid. And they've watched three movies by 2pm. And that's it is what it is. I mean, I think we're all fine. We've probably done that somewhere along in our lives. But that that mom guilt is alive and well. And I, I've had a couple of people say, Well, you're just imagining mom guilt, it doesn't need to exist. My kids watch TV today, too. And I didn't feel bad about it. Michael, that congratulations to you. I'm really that is fantastic that that's how you can run your household. And that's how you feel. That's, that's fine. This is how I feel. And you're right that it does, you don't do give me a dose of confidence to say that I need to be easier on myself, I appreciate that. But I think that's the interesting part of being a mom. And you know, my mom, my mom, I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she went since I was little till now because a lot of the, you know, from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with the mixer and the whole nine yards and like, this is how mom does them. This is how grandma doesn't. And they're both okay. Yeah. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of the things and I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much. us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and whatever that might be. Or, you know, we see people on Instagram who, you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take to the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like, how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do. And what we just have to let go. And like when I was in school, we take away a lot because it was like, Okay, well we have peanut butter and jelly, pancakes, eggs, or we can go down the street and get a salad and that's just, that's just where we live. We lived for two years because, you know, it was that was what we had time for. And that's just how sometimes that works. And we're all going to be okay for it. You know, I joke that I never ate a blueberry that was not in a muffin until I went to college. And I still do are not okay, I varies now it's fine. I'm a reasonably healthy human. You know, it's it's one of those where we all have to just give ourselves a little bit of a break. And I don't know, what is What's your perspective on mom guilt? Because I think you said everyone's take is different. I hate it, I wish it would never existed. Because I think that I feel like I get a bit, I start to get a bit passionate about things. I'll try and curtail myself, but I feel like it's an excuse. For mums to be bashed on, basically, I feel like, I mean, I feel like it has its place in some regards. Like, it's almost like a little voice that might help you decide what's important to you, or how you're tracking in that time, like, like, if, if I don't call it the devil on your shoulder, like the little voice in your ear that might say, now, you know, you've been out four times this week, you probably should be home tonight. But then the other side says, well, actually, you've got a show on at the moment. So you rehearsing for it. So this is important to you. So you go, okay, that's fine. But then another time, the voice might go, Well, actually, you haven't put your child to bed this week, because you've been out going to the movies or catching up with friends. And then you go, Oh, actually, that's true. Maybe I should slow down a bit, you know. So situations or whatever, every, everyone's different in different things, and which is awesome. But I feel like it's an excuse for mums to get a bad deal or the roar end of the deal. It's like, you are allowed to do things for yourself. And it's very important that you do things for yourself. And it's up to you and your family to work out. Where that line is, I suppose of what's manageable for you guys, I think and that you write when you look at social media, I feel like it's, it's it's an opportunity to compare, and to feel judged, and to beat in to judge others. Because I feel like as moms, we're really, we're really bad at judging, like we judge each other. It's I'm not talking about, you know, just people that don't have children, judge us we judge each other. So that'd be good if we stopped doing that. But yeah, we compare ourselves a lot. And we've got to remember that the lives that we see on Instagram are generally a very curated version of that person's life. Absolutely. So we everyone has a different, you know, level of support lives in a different part of the world has a different cultural background, everyone has different values of what's important to them and different styles of mothering. So no, two of us are exactly the same. So we can't compare ourselves, you know? No, to an excellent perspective, really, truly. Yeah, I think it just does more more harm than good. It really does. And it makes no one feel any better. Right? I just I it always sticks in my mind when, when Roy was little he was I really didn't take any time to stop working. But I mean, I had a C section at 7pm, because I was in labor for 24 hours in a C section at 7pm. My mom stayed with me that night, because my husband had to be at a meeting with customers the next morning. And so you know, what I saw, we had a woman come in and help us help me at night for like three nights a week, just so I could sleep. Because he did it, he did not sleep at all, he was a crazy little human. But I had one of my friends from from back in Phoenix, say to me, must be really nice to have all this help. And I said, Well, you know, in all fairness, I don't have any family help. And my husband's gone 50 to 60% of the time. So I need a break. I can't I can't do it all. And so like, I appreciate you dropping that judgment on me. But I don't have any lot of a ton of support. So I have to pay for my support. So that's just, that's what I'm, that's the situation I'm in. And I would love to have a husband who is home all the time to also help and have my mom around the corner. But that just wasn't feasible. And so you're right, though, as we step back and look at what everyone does, and how we handle all the things we need to appreciate and understand that there are a lot of other pieces that we don't, that we don't see. And you know, I I say I joke that it might your children's school might be the same way we're not allowed to have. We're no longer allowed to have homemade treats brought in. So those are things we get homemade treats. Yeah. So they ought to be individually packaged and from from an external source. Yep, that is the best thing that's ever happened to me in my life. Because I'd be making the sad light blue frosting cookies. I mean, it's like the best thing that's ever happened to me because, you know, my mom talks all about how she's a working mom who had two kids in both in activities and my dad went to work at 530 in the morning and came home at seven o'clock. And she was doing homework and all the things and how it will be some sort of something and she had to make something. She was like okay, well, we're in my spare time. You know, she shows up my mom's A Fabulous Baker. But, you know, she shows up with some cookies or something and someone else shows up with his Barbie Kassala cake. She's like, well, here's here's my sad cookies, you know. And where she said it's just it, things have shifted so much. And there's certain things that have, she also didn't have Amazon were food grocery delivery. That might be the only reason I survived with a newborn was Amazon delivery because I would never remember to order diapers till 2am When you're sitting in the chair and going, oh, please just go to sleep and crap or out of diapers has changed for the better. And so we're just there, there are definitely things that make it a little bit better. So there's that when you said before you compared like that your son can go with your mom and do some baking. I feel like it's something we forget as mums, it's really important that when we're not with our children, if he's with your mum, that's a really important thing for him to be doing to, you know, we can't give them everything. And this might even sound like I'm trying to justify having other people look after my children. But it's, it's really important for them to create relationships that don't involve us. Absolutely. So good for for that other person to to have that relationship with your child. It is and it's hard, it's really hard to sometimes, and I don't know about your boys, but mine is like would be glued to my hip all day, every day. If he could be he just like always wants to be with mom, which I, I appreciate it. And one day, he's going to be 15 and want nothing to do with me, I'm going to go fishing with dad or something. But I do think I think about the times that I value where I spent time with my my grandparents and how much fun I had watching The Golden Girls and putting on a face mask with my grandma who took her dentures out in the teeth. And we sat at a great old time. And that was, I think that is so important. And I think that gives them a different perspective to you know, it's, it gives them something to come back and talk about because there are going to be things that grandmas and grandpas say or have a different perspective on or thinking in a different way. And it's a good thing to talk about, like what we what we do as a family versus all the things but it's true everyone gives everyone brings a different value to their life. And just like we can't, we can't do it all. As individuals, we can't bring all the things to them. And so for them to go learn that and just and I think I had to step back at one point. And I really hated you know, my, my mother and I was so sweet. She takes my son now to school almost every morning. And I hated feeling like I was saying, Could you do want to take him to school because like it was a favor to me and I but I had to step back and say, This is awesome for her. She's loving, she gets him by himself for 20 minutes in the car in the morning. And they talk about things from classical music to trees and things that I would probably not talk about in the car with him. And she loves it, it helps me. And so I was once again stepping way back from the mom guilt, she's so happy, she can help because she knows what it's like, she can take that piece and that's something she can do and do well. And it's just it's it is a you have to step back sometimes and say I got a I gotta give you give you the distance, right. And I had a girlfriend when when Ray was born, he said to me, if you do your job, right, at 18 years old, your child will move out of your house and never move back in. And you have to make decisions sometimes based on knowing that that is a future, a future forward thinking forward thinking where you might have to say, You know what, I'm kind of uncomfortable letting you go play in the backyard by yourself. But you know what, just go do it and say where I can hear you. But those little pieces of freedom then give them that onus to continue to grow. And I say this as a person with a three and a half year old. So people will 25 year olds don't judge me because I'm I'm you know, I have a three and a half year old and I'm just we're all doing the best we can so send pointers if your kids are still alive at 25 Because I don't know how I'm gonna make it that far. But um, you know, so it's, it's it is going back to that, letting other people teach them things and some of those things might be not what you want them to learn, right? I mean, you know, it's not ideal that, you know, Grandpa takes him for ice cream and then exam candy at the grocery store and drops them back off at home. You're like, well, thanks a lot, but yeah, it's part of it's part of the things that they do and it's part of that sort of thing that they're gonna have build a memory and maybe learn why you shouldn't eat candy and ice cream on an empty stomach and that's you don't feel so good later either. So yeah, there's always a lesson in there somewhere. There's always a lesson in there somewhere in our mothers, we're always right. That's, yeah. I love that. I've got so many oh my gosh, my dad with my children. It's like he's, I don't recognize him sometimes, because he's such a different grandparent to what he was, as a father, just so much more relaxed and easygoing, and the stuff that would have, you know, got him all riled up when we were kids is like, Ah, whatever. Like, I remember one day, my sister and I were sitting there watching going, Who is this man? Like? It's so love. It's fantastic. Yeah, it's, it's, I just want when my parents fencing like my grandchildren, keep me young and keep me alive and keep me going. Because it is, it's that whole new lease on life, that is this little ball of energy or multiple balls of energy, if you have extra more than one kiddo. And it's just so neat to see them. I mean, my mother wears wears him out. She's in she's in her mid 60s And he's he's zonked out at three and a half. And she's like, Hold on, I'm gonna keep going, let me go make dinner and we're gonna make cookies. And he's like, Oh, love that. It's super, it's awesome. I think it's so great. One of the things I really love talking to moms bear is the concept of their own identity, and how that might have been challenged and changed when you actually had a child? Did you sort of go through some shifts in pace or yourself? That's a great, that's a great question. And I think it's something that people don't talk enough about. Because I do feel like, there is this weird, there is this weird shift. And I, it's funny, because when I was when I first started telling some people I knew in a leadership program I was in there, I was pregnant. One of the guys said to me, how are you going to raise two babies at once being a business and your child? And I was like, Well, I really haven't thought about it. But to be all, in all fairness, I'll figure it out. That's what I've done with everything else in my life. I'll figure it out. And then you start to watch, as you know, people kind of talk to you about how's the baby going to impact your career. And finally, I just got tired of it. And it was just I just, I started doing my smart asset answers of what why don't you ask my husband, I was going to impact his career. Like, why are you asking me? And yes, I understand that I am the primary parent and that I am the one who does all the things. We that's just how most women handle life, right? But I was like, please stop that. That's not fair. To me. It's not fair to my child. And, and it is, it's hard. It's hard to figure out kind of where you fit in there. Because I'm not a, I'm not a mom who's probably going to wear the shirt with my kids face on it. You know, and that's just, that's just not me. There's a mom for every type of person. And I appreciate and respect all of those that do. And I really do, because I think we all own it, how we own it. And for me, it was really important to continue to work and continue to push and actually meeting with a friend last week. And she's in an investment group. And we were I was talking to her and she said, It's just she said, I'm a better mother, when I drop my child off to school when I go to work. And I said me too, that's just how I operate. And that's how I was raised, though I was I don't know anything really different. And but I said, you remember that one that first time when you got out and you went, you dropped your kid off with lifting with dad or babysit or whatever, that grandparent when they were little. And you went out and you went to a meeting or something and you got in the car and you were like, Yes, I still have it. I can still do this. She was like I do remember that moment. Yeah. So that to me was that moment of like, okay, I don't have to completely get rid of one to be the other. And you can be all the things. And what I've tried to to just step back and look at is having a child has made me a better worker. It's made me a better boss. It's made me a better investor, a better board member, all these things, because I've been able to have sympathy to a certain perspective. And I think COVID has also taught us all that in general. But it allows me to put a perspective and his spin on things that really, it puts things as we kind of talked about earlier. It puts everything in perspective. And there's something that says, you know, why is that? Why are we even arguing about this? This is silly. Let's go ahead and XYZ and so I really do feel like it's stepping back and being able to own what I'm good at, and be good at what I'm good at, and still attempt to be a good mom. And but not let any of that define me. I think it comp they all complement each other. Yeah, but I try not to let any of those pieces define me. And I think I learned that really early in my career. I had some pretty rough female bosses for a while including one who fired me and then fired the subsequent two other women she hired after me to fill my position. And I just realized that that was a huge identity loss for me because I was my job. And I think at that point, I realized that I can't ever truly make myself synonymous with anything, I want to try to be able to always be my own person. And I want to be a me but I also am happy to be worries mom, and Reagan's wife, and last night's game, co founder and sister to Scott, my last night's game, co founder and a daughter, and all those things. Because all of us have all of those facets. It's just how you own it. And it works for me, it might not work for somebody else. And I think that continues to go back to the point where we continue to be sympathetic to each other. And understand that it truly takes all of us to make the mom World Go down, go around, and the more we can support each other, the better off we can be and, and also make I don't know, to me, it's nice to hear someone say, Man, I lost I, I I lost it on my kids this morning. That drop off was rough. You're like mine to okay, I'm not the only one who's crazy. Okay, thank you. Yeah. And I think there's some sort of community and that of saying, Okay, it's hard for you to okay, I appreciate that. Because that means I'm not crazy. And I think is that continue stepping back and looking at the real life situations versus the Instagram perfect stuff. Because that is right, that's, we're really a community of like minded, same people. When it comes to motherhood, we all look a little different and one, one faster another. But ultimately, we're all still trying to do the same thing. And we're all probably feeling guilty about something similar. And we're probably getting driven crazy about something similar. And so and we all just want our kids to eat their fruit, vegetables, and grow up to be good humans, you know, like that. Get a decent job be a good human. Yep, some vegetables and some fruits. So you can you know, live a long life. I mean, you love it. I don't know, how about you like, what's your what's your take on that? I'm, from your perspective. The thing about being honest with each other is something that I find really intriguing because I'm the sort of person that I tell things how it is I'm extremely honest. You know, I've been really opening sharing different parts of my life. I've had experience with mental health issues. And I've talked about that openly a lot. And I think it's important to talk about stuff that I remember when I went to my first we have this thing over here called mothers group, when you have a baby, they put you in a group of all the people that had babies at the same time. And so you don't know these people, they're just random people. The only thing in common is that your babies were born, you know, within a day or two of each other. And I remember sitting with this bunch of women the first time and everyone had to go round and talk about their baby. And everyone seemed to be just perfect. Everything was going great for everybody. And I just thought what is going on here? Like, am I the only person whose baby wakes up after 45 minute naps? Am I the only person who's having trouble establishing breastfeeding? Right? I thought what the hell is going on here? So I did say a little bit of stuff. And when I said that, one of the other ladies sort of I could see her look at me like, Oh, thank god you said that. Because now I feel like I can say that, you know? And then the more we talked, it all came out. And I think people have this idea that you've got a nice set up your the way people see you is got to be a certain way and has to be right and you can't let any like crack show. I don't know. resets never bothered me. I think, you know, I've always thrived on like, really deep, honest relationships and really good honest talks. And that's why I love doing this too, because I get to talk to people in really good under the surface ways. Yeah. So it's like my sister at the moment like her daughter is a year almost exactly a year younger than my little fella who's six, nearly six and a half and we just compare drop off stories like you're just talking about like, Oh, I couldn't get them in the car this morning. And I told her to put her sucks And I'm like, yeah, no, I had that with the shoes, you know, and being honest with each other and not sitting there going, Oh, Everything went perfect for me and then making the other mom feel like a failure. You know, we got to know each other, support each other and have each other's back. Yeah. And I would also say on the flip side of that is to really celebrate each other. And that is something interesting. I have a group of girlfriends from my MBA class. And I should say that I traveled out of state every other week to Chicago, for my MBA, so I, I really like my husband was primary parent. And that was a whole shift for us. Luckily, it was COVID. And that doesn't sound right. Not luckily, it was because of COVID. He wasn't traveling. So he was a primary parents. So I really got a chance to actually embrace and make friends, sort of outside of my family, too, because I wasn't having to rush home to them as well. But I have a group of girlfriends that were on the same text message group. And to this day, that's the one where you go to if you have a big win, like, Hey, I got a promotion. And this group is so on board with, you know, we're I think women are so humble in the sense that we don't celebrate our own victories to someone else to celebrate others. And so but I love this group, because it's like, Hey, I got a promotion, oh, my god, you guys, I just landed this, or whatever that might be. And I love it. That group is very much you don't feel uncomfortable celebrating or telling your victories. And I think that's something you know, I really strive to do is seek out these things that my friends have done and, and celebrate them. And I'm a huge fan of snail mail. I love sending greeting cards, the more inappropriate the better. And so I have a whole entire box in my desk that's like, I don't know, probably 200 cards that when I find ones I like I buy them. Yeah, because I just I love that little act of recognition of who doesn't love to get mail. I mean, it goes back to like the day when you have a pen pal, right? Yeah. And so I just love that. And I love celebrating other people. Because everyone works really hard. I don't care if you're a mom, your dad, you don't have kids, you're a dog, Mom, I don't care. You everyone works their butts off. And so if we can celebrate even these little wins, whatever that might be, and you worked out five days in a row, you ate a carrot today. I don't whatever it sound like I'm gonna design some sort of weird Health Net, but I'm not. You finished a whole bottle of wine, let's celebrate. You know, I think there's just i just i There's life is so serious and so full. So being honest. And then then also owning your stuff that you are awesome. And it's great for you to be here to see this. And let's celebrate you and I encourage you if you haven't, there's the Today Show, which is like one of the morning TV programs here. On our one of our big networks here in the US. Two of the there's two morning anchors, they're both females. They're both just this last weekend inducted into the Hall of Fame for broadcasting. Oh, wow. And the one lady her name is Hoda copy. And she gave this speech and talked a lot about how really, everybody, these people, the celebrities that she's interviewed who are so astoundingly accomplished. Don't feel these women don't feel like they're worth it. She doesn't feel like she's worth it. And so let's talk about how we need to earn it because you're worth it. And she went through this whole format speech and it's it's quick. But it's so well done that I actually bookmarked it on my Instagram, because it's one of those things when you need a pep talk. That's that speech where you are worthy, you are worth it. And so celebrate you and that I mean really, that goes back into the mom guilt thing full circle of we have to just give ourselves a break sometimes and celebrate the little victories in our day, you know, what can add underwear on today? Some days that is harder than others. So let's just call that a when we have underwear on, we think we might have two shoes on, they may not match. They may not even be the right feet known to go out and like a rain boot and flip flops. And so, I mean, yeah, we just celebrate those victories that we have and the beauty we can find in our own little worlds of, you know, just stop and figure out what that might be. And, you know, sometimes that's a 15 minute time to 15 minutes to sit down with your kiddo and read a book. And that might be all you have that day. But it's still 15 minutes of book time and Qt so you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's so true. Over here in Australia, we have this. It's a terrible part of our culture. I feel like it is slightly getting better, but it's not really. It's the tall poppy syndrome about if anyone else is doing really good around you. You've got to cut them down and bring him back to the same level as everyone else. And that's been a massive part of Australian culture for a very long time. And I think that that's lends itself to the fact that people don't like to talk themselves out, because they don't want to be seen as being, you know, doing well and maybe being better at something than someone else, because people will pull them down and they'll say, Oh, yeah. What about this? Yeah, you know? Yeah. And I remember years ago, because I've been singing my whole life, and we have our towns only what? 30,000 people. So you're gonna get in the newspaper, at some point. If you live in Gambia, you're gonna get in there, at some point, hopefully, for something good. Yeah, not in like the court pages. But because I've been in singing for a long time, I've done a lot of public events and fundraisers and different community things. So I've been in the paper a lot. And early on. One of my singing teachers said to me, make sure you cut your cut your articles out, don't be vain in like, don't be scared to cut them out and keep them because she said, No one else is going to do that for you. And, you know, I thought, Oh, I feel a bit funny. You know, I Oh, look, this is me, this is me. But it's like, I'm so glad that I have them now, because I have them in this little folder. And every now and then if I'm looking through the cupboard to find something else, I'll see them like, Oh, look at me, and then I'll show the kids. And it's like, it's so nice to have that. So you worked hard to earn? Yeah, yeah. So let's see. Yeah, let me no one's gonna be, right. I mean, our parents can be really proud of us, if that's what the their verbage they use, but you've got to be proud of yourself. And that's something I think also comes with age. I think when I, when I hit 40, I all of a sudden just grew up here that I didn't really know I had, and just learn to be okay with stuff. And stop trying to fit in the mold of exactly what something should be, or should it be and, you know, sort of tried to just let some stuff go. And I mean, I was always envious of older like actresses, when you would hear them in interviews, say, Well, as I got older, I just learned not to give a crap. And I think that is like what a great place to be. And, and so you know, if someone's listening, and they're, they're younger, and feeling unsure, you've got this, you own it, because guess what you've what you're gonna have at 40 is what you're gonna have at 30 You're gonna be a little bit more a little bit wiser, but own it. You know, clip your clip your your write, clip your newspaper articles and save them because that's really cool. That's an awesome accomplishment to be able to do something so magnificent. And it may mean nothing to you, and may be nothing to you. But you know, you don't remember that sometimes you're low lights or someone's highlights like they really, yeah, it's always perspective. So celebrate you and put it off, blow it up and put it on the wall. If that's what you're into. Do it. Who cares? Yeah, that's what gets you out of bed. Do it? Yep. No, I definitely agree with that 40 year old thing. It's like the amount of women I've spoken to you that have said that same thing. It's it's a thing. You honestly, you just go not do not care. Do? You know? I don't know. You just time for this. I mean, we we looked at a school for the title human for starting, like pre K and kindergarten. And one of the schools is known to have sort of a bit more of a catty mom group and I was bullied in when I in all through middle school. And so I joke to my husband, like, I'm gonna need to go to therapy to send our child to that school because I'm not going to make it. Yeah. And it turned out that there were a lot of things that made that school not not work for us, but I just thought, why? I don't want anything to do with any of that. I really don't care if my husband I don't care if that's if you want to talk shit about us, then go for it. Have at it, but leave my kid alone. Yeah, and we'll be fine. But it's just it's one of those are like why? Yeah, let's this just seems like way too much work. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. So many times in my life. I've had this saying something's gone down. And I'm like, I'm not in high school anymore. Like this. I'm beyond this. This is not this is not worthy of my time. It's not something I want to spend my energy on. You guys go for it and do what you got to do. But I'm not doing your free toilet paper by house just like high school if that's what you want to do. That's fine. Whatever. Yeah, like Yeah, yeah, it's a funny thing. What I really tried to talk a lot about and where I've sort of started to try to own my own perspective, is to support young women coming up through their careers. Because, you know, I think I mentioned it earlier that I had some I had one or two great female bosses. But I really struggled with bosses and male bosses too. And so, you know, what, what I kind of tried to do myself is be a resource, and that is to the babysitter's who come and watch the Munchkin. You know, is it, one or two of them are getting married? They're like, can you look at my registry? Can I ask you this work? Question? How do I ask for a raise? I mean, whatever that might be, I just want to be that resource. Because I think far too often women are not really set up where we don't really do mentors like men do. And I think that's something that we as women who are further along in our career in our talents that we can do, we can provide some perspective. And I think that perspective might just be the same as this isn't high school, this isn't worth it type of thing to say, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because I think because the business world has been a man's world for so long, they've formalized this mentor stuff, and it's been something they do. And it's like, we've got to try and find ways to do it. Because it's so important. It is really important. And I think about me growing up, like, all I learned from my mum about my job was how to dress and how to answer the phone and how just, you know, that sort of stuff, not how to like, say, ask for a raise how to, you know, communicate with people in your workplace, it was all the how to type? How to Answer the phone, you know? So yeah, I think that is so so important. While I think the honor the honest side of things, and, you know, I think that it's giving reviews and giving honest feedback in areas where people really can work on things and, and grow and evolve. So all those things is continuing to give positive but constructive feedback, and being honest, and that's one thing that's really funny, we were kind of out of our friends, our friends here, we're sort of on the the older end and the first have children, whereas in other places, we were kind of at the tail end of it. And we've had friends who've had kids who say, can we go to dinner with the two of you, because I know you'll give us the honest feedback about parenting and pregnancy and all of that stuff. And like, sure, that's what we're here for. I'm not going to pretend that you know, pregnancy and newborns are all like puppies and babies and toilet paper commercial, like they're not all fluffy. It's not all perfect. And so here's some perspective, I want you to know that it's fantastic. But it's also tough. There's going to be tough times where, you know, my husband would say, Well, you know, took me a long time, a little while to get, like, really feel like I bonded with the baby, and all those things. But all that stuff is things I think are things that people don't talk about, once again, going back to your baby class. And it's all normal. And so maybe it won't happen to you. But if it does know that that's okay, and know that that's normal, and your hormone fluctuations, whatever that might be. So, you know, it's really truly pick up that next generation, but be honest to maybe not to, to a fault, but provide some honest feedback and constructive criticism of work if that's where that that relationship lies and, and truly being. Because I think that's going to set us all up for success when it comes down to it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good on you. So you can find last night's game at last night's game.com We are on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter as well as LinkedIn. And I run our Instagram account. So all the stories are the kind of behind the scenes of the life of another founder, a female founder. And so you'll see the tiny human running around probably with you know, his rear end hanging out on his scooter in the front yard. You start from there to a little bit of everything. So Instagram was definitely a really fun place for us to share a story. And let's say last night's game.com And then we're on our podcasts is sports curious. And we are on all major podcast platforms and we come out on that releases on Wednesdays and it's about a five minute podcast very rarely do we go over five minutes so I'm here to make sure that your life is short, sweet and out the door and you get on your way with all the other very important things you have going on in life. Oh love that. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been it's been really lovely chatting with you. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you. I look I look forward to making the visit your way here in the next year. Yeah, well, if you if you ever need boy yell out. Well, for sure. Absolutely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.