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Mercedes Rodgers US claymaker + potter S2 Ep50 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome to Episode 50. My guest this week is Mercedes Rodgers, a clay maker and potter from Fort Walton Beach in Florida, USA. Mercedes is a mum of 3 sons. Mercedes studied a Degree in Art History and thought she would go into photography, but she was always drawn to clay, She was fascinated and influenced by a neighbour who was making tiles for her kitchen out of clay from the river bed. When she finished her degree she moved up to New York with her husband, Mercedes worked in art centre that had an amazing pottery studio where she was able to really delve in deep. She learned the craft in the traditional way of learning from others in an apprenticeship kind of way. In additional to her pottery, Mercedes also enjoys painting, photography, knitting, dying fibres and has taught pottery for many years, as well as owning a gallery, She feels deeply connected to the earth, turning to traditional methods to make charcoal from grape vines and ink from acorns and her kiln is powered by solar energy. She loves to try new things and be playful within her work. She loves how pottery has forced her to slow down and be patient, you can't rush the kiln or disaster ensues. **Please be aware this episode contains discussions around stillbirth + infant loss, PTSD, anxiety attacks + grief** Today we chat about how art and journaling helped Mercedes through the loss of her 1st son Conrad, appreciating the connection between the artist and the art they create through practical, functional objects and good old mum guilt gets a big mention. Take a look at Mercedes' marionettes Read about Ruth Duckworth 1000 Paper Cranes Mercedes - instagram / shop Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Episode 50. It's really exciting to be still hanging around after all this time, and thank you for sticking with me. My guest this week is Mercedes Rogers. Mercedes is a playmaker and a potter from Fort Walton Beach in Florida, United States and Mercedes is a mom to three boys. Mercedes studied a degree in art history and thought she would go into photography, but she was always drawn to clay. She was fascinated and influenced by a neighbor who was making tiles for her kitchen out of clay from the earth. When she finished her degree, she moved up to New York with her husband, she worked in an art center that had an amazing pottery studio, where she was really able to delve deep. She learned the craft in the traditional way, learning from others in an apprenticeship kind of way. In addition to her pottery, Mercedes also enjoys painting, photography, knitting, dyeing fibers and has taught pottery for many years. In addition to owning a gallery, she feels deeply connected to the earth, turning to traditional methods to make charcoal from grape vines and ink from acorns amongst other things, and Akun is powered by solar energy. She loves to try new things and be playful within her work. She loves her pottery has forced her to slow down and be patient. You can't rush the kiln or disaster in shoes. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around stillbirth and loss, PTSD, anxiety attacks and grief. Today we chat about how art and journaling helped Mercedes through the loss of her first son Conrad, appreciating the connection between the artist and the art they create through practical functional objects. And we give good old fashioned mum guilt. A bit of a mention music you'll hear today is from LM J, an Australian New Age ambient music trio featuring myself, my sister Emma, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy welcome to the podcast Mercedes. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Absolutely. So tell me a little bit about where you are in America. I live in Northwest Florida so the very northern western corner of Florida some people we jokingly call it La lower Alabama. So it's it's the south it's about as much southern as Florida can get not like like culturally is what I'm trying to say but it's really beautiful we I live like five minutes from the beach. It's just like crystal white sands you know the granite that's come down from the Appalachians and crystal clear water and beautiful river so it's really it's kind of like there's a place about an hour and a half down the coast from here that's called the Forgotten Coast. So I think when people think of Florida they have a very like Miami Tampa way over built up kind of vibe and yet here I think maybe because we're so close to Alabama, I don't know. It's just it's pretty like you know, Southern Sorry, sorry. What are you doing in here? Okay, well can you please go take it up with him? Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. I scheduled like this is great. We just lock it it's fine. It's not a problem it's all right. This is like so much this is so much mom life right where you're like yes, our normal routine is blah blah this should fit in perfectly and today he mapped until like five o'clock in the afternoon so of course now he's just like up rampaging my husband you know, I mean, this my husband he works remotely so he just gave it him like lock the door so hopefully we should be so good yeah, Northwest Florida. It's an OK place. I love the I love the environment here. Sometimes the politics in the southern culture is a little much and I miss the arts. I mean, there's not the biggest The Art scenes here, you know, yeah, right. Yeah. I noticed on your Instagram stories that you, you'd like to do a bit of camping and you're not very far from like woodlands and sort of really? It almost looks like you're in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, it's pretty primitive we there's a very large air force base here that has they call it the Eglin reservation. So it's like, I don't know, 1000s and 1000s of square miles of land that they don't do anything with. And it's been great on the beaches to they have huge swaths of completely undeveloped beaches because of the Air Force. So we can just go out there. Yeah, it's like 15 minute drive from our house and from you know, the relatively small city that we live in to just be in a primitive camping area. And it is, it's wonderful. I love it and being a potter. And my work is so grounded in dirt. Like I just I'm a very much I like being outside being that connection to nature really helps to fuel the work that I do. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What's the weather like there at the moment? Oh, it's so nice. It's been like in the high 60s, low 70s. That's about 20 degrees Celsius. So just beautiful weather. Yeah, I always like to gardening and yeah, I always like to ask my guests about whether I have this thing about, you know, other places in the world and what it's like and what the weather's like, I don't know, it's the environment really affects the way that we work too. That's what I thought I lived in upstate New York for a while and I didn't believe it as much then. But the transition from moving back down here, I really noticed the change in my work from the environment and just those influences. Yeah, like like in upstate New York, it gets very cold freezes intense amounts of snow. I mean, in the darkness, it's so much darker for longer and all the leaves fall off the trees and here we never even have a real winter. Right so here you know, it's never really that cold and and so the what I see every day is just it's very different because of the weather and the environment. Yeah, so I just noticed I went from carving like doing this graffito work of you know, barren trees on vessels to much more like fanciful mermaids and sea creatures and things like that. Like it was a big ship. It was no but it was it was big. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome so you mentioned there that you you're a potter, can you tell us about what you do? How you got into it? All that kind of stuff? Yeah. I feel like it just goes all the way back to the beginning. Yeah, so I'm predominantly a functional Potter. I mean, that's the way that I have made a living at this. But I love I love like the line in ceramics that line between functional and fine art. So I feel like that's something I'm always kind of playing with like putting little sculptures on my mugs are drawing or screen printing or making little sculptures that have some functional aspect to them that like maybe it's a sculpture of a mermaid but then she's like a jewel secretly a jewelry box or something like that, you know? Yeah. And so. So, the pottery, it's interesting. I got my degree was in art history. So I wasn't sure you know what I was going to do. I wasn't 100% Sure, like what medium I really thought it was good to go in to study I studied quite a bit of photography. But I was I've always been drawn to clay. Since I was young. I was always one of those kids like in the backyard digging up clay when I was an adolescent I lived near this woman who had was digging clay out of a string bed, made herself a wood fire kiln and then was making these tiles and tiling her kitchen. It was amazing. And I just remember being like as a child just in awe that you could take this dirt and make something so permanent. So I think that really stuck with me. And so then, while I was in college, I worked in an art center that had a pottery studio. And then when I got out of when I finished my degree, my husband moved up to New York to do his PhD studies and there was a amazing art center there and he you know, he was like, oh, you should go, you know, check it out and see. And I started, they had an amazing pottery studio there. And then that's when I really like, just delve in deep. So it wasn't something that I studied in university. But it was one of the things that I, I learned it more like in the old way of Craps, like through apprenticeships, and just like self driven study. Yeah. So again, going back to the old ways of, you know, the traditional ways of doing things, and which sort of ties into, I guess what you're saying before, like, you're drawn to the earth and making things it's like, the traditional pathways, I suppose, sort of ties in. Yeah. And, and I think, I mean, this is also that line between fine art and craft, right? Like, because fine art has this elevation in the history of art of like, you know, it's what's in the galleries, and it's what's possible. But the craftsmanship that's like, underneath that is the key, but you have to have the craft before you can have the fine art. You know. I'm just interested to ask you going down your art history route, I spoke to an art historian, an art historian from Adelaide on this program in season one, talk to Melanie Cooper, and she said, just what you've you've just piqued my interest, and I could be off the track here. But she said a similar thing about how fine art, you know, is the thing in the museums and whatever. And then craft got, like a really bad rap, like the women can do the craft, the arts and crafts sort of thing is that that's sort of where you're coming from. I think that yes, when I was studying art history in school, I definitely, that was one of the big things that I picked up on. And kind of just like the, like, if you if you look through our history, it is predominantly men in all of the art forms that that are the majority of the people that are in the museums that are in the galleries, right. And then the crafts, not in all cultures, but in a lot of them. It is like the women in the those once it's a utilitarian, somehow it loses its worth. And then I just personally thought that, in worst for society, it's almost the other way around, right? Like, we need well designed objects that we use every day, like, like, I always think, like my work is like, just like simple beauty for every day. Right? Like I'm a big coffee and tea drinker. Right? So that like handmade mug full of coffee or tea in the morning, it's just like, there's, there's something like so whole about that functional experience. For me, that's also beautiful. And the work of art. Absolutely, yes, I love that. It's like you can celebrate this experience and take this moment, to appreciate everything that's gone into, you know, the thing you're holding in your hand and the vessel that you're experiencing your drink from, it's like there's this massive connection with, you know, where it's coming from and how it got made. And what's the story behind the person that made it and you know, it's just this huge cultural connection. Yeah. And I think maybe our culture has got so far away from that, I think that that's also one of like, my earlier memories of like, seeing between commercially produced products and handcrafted things. My, my grandmother, I love this story, my my grandfather raised horses, and one of my grandmother's friends, her husband was a potter. And so her friend like horse riding horses, and my grandmother loved pottery, so they got the women got the husbands to trade. And so my grandmother has all these beautiful pots by this potter has been very gifted, actually, when you were talking about the influences, that people who influence me, I think his work had such a profound influence on me as a child because I could remember, you know, being with my grandmother in her kitchen, cleaning the plates and the bowls and putting them in, in you know, in the dishwasher and being very careful with them because we knew the person you know, you can feel the finger marks and like somebody that we know created these objects versus like at home, you know, with like the plastic plates or the you know, slip cast mass produce things like there was just a very different feeling in the weight in the whole act of how we use them. And I think that that just really kind of just a huge impact on my life in general. You know, I love in my home as much as I can having things that are either like, old or hands, you know, handcrafted like my, a lot of our furniture was is from my husband's ancestors were from Germany and they were all Woodworkers. So we have like this civil war and all this old like handmade, you know, like a headboard that his grandfather cut down the tree. Yeah, right. It was a wedding gift, right? In the time we like in order to like, ask the person to marry you like this is how you did it. And we're just well, with Amazon, right? We're in like such a different world now. So I think that part of what I do as an artist is like, remembering that and also trying to share that with people, you know, continue sharing the craft and teaching people and yeah, absolutely going forward. Yeah, I love that. It's so important, isn't it? Because we do we just get caught up in this fast, fast culture. Like we need things right now and everything if it doesn't, you know, if you break something, you just throw it out and get a new one because it costs more to repair something that does to buy new and like this whole consumerism is just out of control, isn't it? Yeah. And you think like, we're a potter. I mean, it takes it's such a slow process. I mean, it takes like weeks and weeks for one mug to go from like that ball of clay to something that you can drink out of, you know, it's very, and if you try to rush it, that's the best part. If you try to rush it, it just explodes in the kiln. I mean, it's one of those things like you just you can't, you can't force it to be fast, because you cannot do it yet. It's like it's forcing you to be slow and take your time and be patient. Have you ever struggled with that patients? Like are you naturally a patient person? Or is that really challenging for you? Oh, no. I mean, that's, I think, part of like, maybe the universe, like made me a product that because I'm not patient. And I come like from a long line of very impatient people. Like it's ridiculous. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm always like, Okay, if I rush this, I mean, yes, it really has helped to be, you know, like, I have to be slow or it's just not gonna work. Yeah. So cool. I love that. It's like, yeah, the universe sent you this. So you could just appreciate you know, I love that. You said before about, you could feel the finger marks in the, the plates and the cups. There's a piece of pottery that my mum brought been back from a holiday once and it's it's a fruit bowl. It's beautiful. And it's hand painted. And, and I picked it up one day and realized I'd put my thumb in the same spot as there was a thumb mark. And I just had this like shiver like, oh, like it was just this amazing moment of like, I'm touching where someone has physically made this and my hand is right where their hand was. It was just incredible. I'm getting shivers now thinking about it was just yeah, that connection. That connection is energizing. Yeah. When Yes, I 100% agree. I love Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I think that also that's part of in a way like what has always drawn me to the arcs when I think about it, like thinking about the people who influenced me. I don't know if you know the sculptor Ruth Duckworth. Have you heard of her? She did a lot of she was a ceramicist. And mostly in porcelain, and made these like very abstract sculptures. And but they so I only saw them in history books. And they were so perfect. Like I just why shiny, beautiful porcelain. And the first time I was in the Museum of Modern craft, I think in Manhattan. And they had a exhibit of her work. And I saw, I got to see some of the larger installation pieces. And as I walked up in the close, there were all these little cracks and imperfections in the pieces. And I might I was just like, it was that same moment of connection of like, here's this person that I've idolized, but also is just a human being who has the same problems in her kilns probably that I have in mind kills, right just like that. That connection of human the human struggle. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? Yeah, it's interesting that that we put, and I'm not saying this in a bad way, but we we put people up on a pedestal, it's like, we can't do that. That's unachievable. But then we realized that at the end of the day, they're still human beings. And it's like, we're all going through the same struggles. I think that that's what's great about your podcast, too, right? It's for us artists to realize, like, you know, we create these things from our heart and our soul when we put out in the world to see. But what people see is that finished product, right? They don't see the hours and hours of labor and struggle that goes into it. And I think that especially as moms that's all reminding each other of like, how many days we don't get into the studio to do the work or how many interruptions that we get, but we still somehow you know, collectively figure how to get through it, you know? Yeah, that is so tricky. Talking about your connection to the earth, I had a look on your Instagram, you've played around with making ink from acorns and making charcoal from grape vines. Tell us about that. It's really cool. Yeah, so I think when you know when people ask me, you know, what is your main medium or like, you know, what kind of artists are you? It's always hard for me because I do love to try to try new things. And so, oh, I've done a lot of work in, like fiber work, I worked on a sheep farm for a while. And so I learned some about natural dyeing there. And then that so then recently I was getting interested in sewing and trying to not spend a bunch of money on materials. So I was like buying white sheets from the secondhand stores. And then I was trying to dye them with these organic materials. And then that just like spiral, right, like into the rabbit hole of all these, so then I started looking around where I live, to figure out like, what pigments are naturally available. And the tannins in acorns, I mean, that are everywhere where I live, are very easy to you know, you just have to boil them down and boil them down. And then you're left with a really nice ink that, you know, if you leave it sitting in the sun over time it fades. But like in a sketchbook or a journal. I mean, it really is color fast, and it drives really nicely. So that's wonderful. And then yes, the great fine charcoal, that was just another it was like a recipe, I found a book and it was so easy. I just took a little altoids tin, cut the pieces of vine, put them in the tin and then put the pin in my fireplace. And then after like three hours pulled it out, and I had nice, nice piece of the charcoal. Just love that. It's again, it's just that patience waiting for things to happen. And you know, not rushing. Yeah, like just the playful nature of like, what I think that that's like what I get out of being an artist, right? It's just like that continuous curiosity. And my husband, my husband's background is a chemical engineer. So chemistry, like he's really deep into the chemistry. So it's very interesting. For us like together like, you know, when I go on these these missions to make a coordinate, you know, he's breaking it down on the molecular level and trying to figure out like, you know, the best way to get it to be the richest color. It's It's really wonderful. And exciting way to look. You know, art science and art together. Hmm, that's it, because it Yeah, it's there's so much science. That's thing my kids forget when I talk about let's do some science when we're homeschooling. So let's do some cooking. It's like, that's not science, like Yeah, it is. Because if you get your recipe wrong, it doesn't work. So yeah, that is a really cool connection to have. Yeah, do you and can also talk about your Marionette Bender that that describes my artistic and my bender. So I think that came out of COVID. And being in Northwest Florida were I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you see from the news about what life is like here. But I mean, people really just pretended like COVID wasn't a thing. It was really it was really emotionally, kind of difficult, because I just felt so gaslit a lot of the time. And so like for the first you know, like the first shutdown, things were pretty serious. And, you know, my community and friends like took it pretty seriously. But slowly as the COVID fatigue went on, like people just got less and less, I don't know what the word is, like had less and less self control, or were just more and more tired of, of the, the different waves, you know. And so, again, my husband being a scientist, like he's very much like, we're just going to follow the CDC guidelines, you know, this is how we're going to do it. So that last Omicron wave when pretty much everybody around me was just doing whatever and my little family is back in on nucular thing I was like well, I guess if I can't hang with my friends, I will just make myself some friends and so that's how I started making marionettes and entertaining the kids you know, but they're, they're less entertained by it than I am. I'm really having a lot of fun with it. It has really like it's really like I get I think this is why I love the play in art because that it's really like planted the seed for this very this next step in the sculptural pieces that I'm making that I think you probably saw those on Instagram too that it's like they're almost like I'm imagining them as like altar pieces that you hang on the wall so it's like the human form and that torso area you could put like a candle or a stone or you know leaf or something you know, whatever thing you want to be in there your rings. And then yeah, it will have like the marionette legs and I don't know I'm imagining like some wire pieces I haven't I need to fire a tail load full of stuff. But we it's spring break here right now. So I'm really just in KidZone. So but yeah, that's the marriage and I'm interested to see where it goes. I'm really hoping that that is going to be my next I haven't done any solo shows since the kids have been born. And so I'm hoping when my two year old is going to start in like a preschool next year and so I'm really good Well this year in August, so what I'm really hoping is that I will have a solid body of work I'm imagining those sculptural pieces I'm sure some kind of functional piece will come along and and then some paintings kind of around that that subject, but we'll see right now just a dream. You know, I have to I have lots of big dreams, and then we see what really manifests itself in the end. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I've got to say I'm a bit. I mean, it's one of those things that really freaked me out. I have like a, I don't say it's not a phobia. I just look at them. And I go, Oh, the same with them. You know, those dolls that people have on there when they do ventriloquist dummies. Yeah, freaked me out a lot, too. So when I saw them, I was like, I feel a bit funny, but I'm gonna watch this, because, you know, this is Mercedes work. I'm gonna get into this. But at the same time, I could just feel my skin falling just a little bit. A little bit weird, right? Because you're like making these sculptures and trying to like breathe life into these like inanimate objects. Right? So I think there isn't something like inherently kind of creepy to them. And they have a particular look about them too. Like it's that that traditional? I don't know what the word is. I don't know what I don't know what to describe them as, but they look they have these look about them. It's just me. Don't mind me. All right. I think you're probably not the only one. I'm sure that other people are very. Oh, goodness. But you know how you said about the, like, their, their bellies being like, open. I sort of when I first saw it, it reminded me like of a fireplace of like a, I don't know, that's just where my head went. When I first saw them. I was like, well, that's cool. Anyway, there you go. I can see that. Well, I definitely imagine having candles in some of them. Hmm. So I mean, that's what I love to about like that, you know, like, making functional work or making less representative work is I love like the eye of the beholder, right. I love hearing. Like, when I first when I first started my first real like selling artwork was at a farmers market I then did for like, I think four years straight, where I make my pottery, and then I would take it to the farmers market to sell it. And I always love that interaction with people like hearing what they thought something that I made was where I wouldn't like, you know, like a little tray that I'd imagine it's like a ring holder or a salt dish, you know, and they're like, Oh, my rings would look really beautiful on that, or that would be great. So you know, like they see it as something completely different than that then sparks another idea for me of like, oh, it could be a you know. Yeah, absolutely. And also want to mention that your kiln is solar powered, which is really cool. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big dream that I really never thought would, would happen. But there's been a pretty big push here in Florida. It's so weird. Again, like the politics. We only have Gulf power, which is our power comes from coal, which of course is not good for the environment. And there has been a big push from the solar companies because Florida, there's so much sun, it's a great place to harvest solar. But yeah, we went bankrupt. So we got it at a good time where it was like we could get a decent return for the solar that we produced that we don't use. And it is really exciting to know that I'm not burning coal when I fire my kilns but I am you know, harvesting the energy from the sun and, and using that because it killed I mean, it's amazing. I fire this count the 2300 degrees Fahrenheit, which I don't know what that is. And whoa, Celsius, but it's like it's like volcanic temperatures in there. That's about 1260 degrees Celsius. It's a lot of energy that it takes. Yeah, that's insane. Isn't that the sort of thing? What would something have to be to actually just disintegrate something like, because that's really hard, and your stuffs not disintegrating? Like that's amazing. Well, it depends on where you put in there. I mean, definitely can disintegrate things, but that's like where the chemistry comes in. Right? Because you have to have the right play body to fire you know, that fires at that temperature that ensures at that temperature because essentially what we're doing is we're creating a stone it's called stone layer, because you're putting it through a process that on the molecular level, it becomes a stone stone. That's really fascinating. Yeah, I think that that's what's the hook for me. You know, this idea that you pick a material that's so malleable and soft and just very easily returned. To the earth when you start out with it, and at the end, it's something that's so solid and permanent. I mean, if you think about the things that laugh through the Millennium that we dig up from other cultures often it is shards of pottery. Yes, that's so true, isn't it? You know that we're digging up plastic from from an era anyway, I'm digressing. You briefly mentioned your children there. Tell us a little bit more about your family? Well, my husband, James, we have been together. Oh my gosh, it's 20 years now a lot like our whole adult life. And so we were together for 10 years. And then we started having kids. And so we have three sons and Conrad, he would be 10 years old this year, if he was still with us, and then at Red are middle one is six. And then Arthur, the one who came charging in here earlier is two is quite a little. He is the sweetest little firecracker. They're wonderful. They really just have brought so much joy to my life. Yeah, there was a, again, on Instagram, I'm videoing, again, the Instagram store crews when I'm going to chat to people. So yeah, that was if I keep saying that, but when you're you're painting some mugs, and I'm guessing it's your two year old who's sitting next to you. And he's having a go as well. And it's in fast motion. And you can see, you know, he's painting on his little play, and then suddenly falls down and something happens. And then he paints underneath the plane. It's just such a sweet little thing to watch. It's just so busy doing his painting, it must be so nice to be able to involve them in what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's really the only way that I've been figured able to figure out how to continue working, because I do have some help. My mom just lives around the corner, and my husband's dad lives down the street. So that's really nice. But I am I am with them, you know, all the time. So and I struggle, like, you know, I go through these phases where like, Oh, I'm gonna get up before them and work. But then somehow they like, figure out that I'm awake and come in there. You know, it's like, I don't know. So yeah, so that's what I'm always trying to devise a way for them to, like, be part of be part of the process. And you know, also learning along, you know, yeah, absolutely. When they see your work, I guess they're, they're well aware that you're making. You're making things that are going to be used in homes and other people buy them. And it's sort of what I'm getting at is like, it's, it's great that they can see that you're contributing to the world, I suppose, outside of their own home. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, they're very aware. And one of the main places that I sell my artwork is a place called artist Fano here in Fort Walton, that she sells all local art and our six year old, he's actually started making beads and making necklaces, and he has a little line of stuff that he's selling in our store, too. So yeah, I mean, we really do, you know, I really do try to, you know, show them yes, the process and where the things are going. And, you know, like, let's give them their kits. I don't know if you have this experience, but they just don't want to part with anything, my children, they just want to keep everything. So trying to talk to them about like, you know, I'm making this to sell and it's going to go out into the world, and we're not going to keep everything that we make, you know, and then seeing that process, I think is really, really good for them. Hmm, that's true, isn't it? I hadn't thought of that. That's, that's cool. It's just amazing to me to how much I see them learning in the studio, for example, Everett, who's six now I think it was for his fourth birthday, which seems extremely young to me. As someone who has taught pottery throughout the years, I decided to make little sippy cups for all the kids who are coming to the birthday party to like give them as gifts and he was you know, in the studio with me one making them and then I made a bunch of extra ones, you know, just because in pottery, things break or get broken. And then I just decided I was like, you know, I think I'm going to just let him glaze these because these are his gifts to his friends. I took some videos of it I was shocked at how he there's a tool like this clamp tool that I use that you hold the pot with to dip it down into the glaze bucket. And how this four year old who had been in the studio with me for the last four years watching me could just reel that tool. He glazed all the cups. He did not break a single cup. I mean, I had to like still wipe the bottoms down and stuff, but it just it really hit me how much he had been learning and taking in that I didn't even realize he was born. If that makes sense, that's it like the first time he ever did it. He just knew how to do it because he'd watched you do it for so many years. That is awesome, awesome story you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman. Want to talk about Conrad a little bit. So you said he would have been 10 at the moment? Can you share with us a little bit about him and how he's affected your work and maybe continues to affect your work? Yes. So well, Conrad, he was our first son and he died when I was 33 weeks pregnant. So that would be turned to stillbirth. So he, I mean, he was our everything. It was one of those things. You know, I don't know, I think a lot of people of our generation go through this where James and I had like, spent a decade like, trying to build our careers and you know how to get our life together and doing air quotes there. And then we're like, okay, like, it's time to have kids. And it was just like that really easy thing where it was like, two months later, we were pregnant. I was, you know, like this just picture of health birth, there was like no signs of any problems. We were just so excited to be bringing him in the world Captain Awesome, is actually what our like nickname for him was before we had a name. And, and then and I at that time, I owned an art gallery and teaching studio. So everybody at the gallery in the studio. I mean, everybody was just so excited about this new life, you know, new life, like everybody's so excited about it. And so I think then, I'm here he was already like a big part of my creative process I was doing these watercolor is when I really started painting and watercolor. And I did this whole kind of, like creative series about a little boy and a bunny rabbit costs known as a little boy and a bunny rabbit, and they just like went on these adventures and these watercolor paintings, and I don't know, I just I kind of maybe this sounds really weird, but I felt like he was like, you know, this little life in me like, you know, I don't know, I don't know how to put it into words. But like, kind of we were co creating these things. And then yes, after he passed away, I mean, it just shattered my whole existence. There was just, it was so incredibly unexpected. I just I don't even know. Like, I it was one of those things where I didn't even really understand stillbirth was a thing. You know what I'm saying? Like living in this western culture. I just assumed like, we were gonna get pregnant, we're gonna have this baby we had. Like I said, everybody was so excited about the baby, I had three baby showers thrown for beer, like celebrations of life type of things. You know, we had like, like, I wasn't wanting to, like, need to set up a nursery or do any of that stuff. But we definitely were in that like nesting, preparing, so excited to be with this little person. And yeah, and then just one morning, I woke up and actually, at night before I went to bed, I had like, massive fetal movement. I remember because my mother lived in California at the time, and I was like, trying to video my belly. So I could like send it to her and be like, Oh, the baby's going wild, you know. And then the next morning, when I woke up, there wasn't much movement. And James who is very, like, conscious of what's going on, he's in like, in the mornings, you know, we would often like lay there and he would have his hands on my stomach and like, feel the baby moving or whatever, and even comment, he was like, oh, maybe it's really still this morning. And I was like, Yeah, Miss I just sleeping or stuff that he was really, I think even said he was like real wild last night. And then as the day progressed, I still like wasn't feeling any movement. And so didn't know I didn't want to like freak, it just didn't seem like it just didn't seem like how could this what is happening, you know, and then then by the afternoon, I just, I was actually watching one of my friends, kids, like they were at a soccer game, and I guess it was like babysitting them or whatever. And I was sitting there. And I had like, you know, they demonstrate to do the kick counts, and you know that I was like, Okay, I'll get up and I'll go watch the kids and I'll like drink a big glass of orange juice, and he'll definitely be moving around by them. And so I'm sitting like, at the soccer field, and I still didn't have the field with it. And it was so strange. It was like, right about the time that I had decided that I was going to have to call the midwife and say like, I feel like something's wrong. I need to have this checked out. James called me and he said, I feel like something's wrong. Are you okay? And I just like broke down. I was like, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Like feels really weird. I think I'm gonna go up to the office and have them check things out. And I was you know, because of that like, just Like blissful naivety I think I was like you don't have it's Friday afternoon like, you don't have to worry about coming with me. I'll just go by myself. I'm sure everything's fine. You know, he's like, No way. I'm definitely coming with you come home and pick me up. And we'll go out there. And we drove over there. And yes, she did the sonogram. And like, I don't know, if legally, she couldn't tell me or if she just didn't want to, or whatever was, but she was like, Oh, this machine isn't very good. Let's just go to the hospital. And it's just like, I knew I just knew. But like, what? I don't know. I mean, it's just like, even now like saying it's like, such as just a surreal a shocking experience. It was the day before my birthday, which even sounds like maybe selfish but weird, right? And I just remember being like, This is so weird. I have to go to my birthday party tomorrow, like how was this like that, like, out of body out of mind experience. So we got to the hospital. And they did a sonogram and you know, is just so weirdly an impersonal where they're like, Okay, that's, you know, shutting down a machine is like, there's what the baby's heartbeat supposed to be, there's no heartbeat. And I'm just like, I'm gonna do I don't know, I just like, I was like, I just was like, I gotta go to the bathroom. Like, got up in the bathroom, and just like laid on the floor and was just didn't know you know what to do. And then it was just a weird deal of like days, where they, I mean, this is why I'm so thankful for medical intervention, right? Because in the past, like, you would just have to wait. And he was a four and a half pound baby, like he was a fully full, I mean, he could have been born and lived, if we would have known whatever had like, we still don't really know for sure what happened to him. So we had to go through all of that. And induction and it took a couple days of like, I they tried to induce me and then didn't work. So I had to go home. And then I had to go back to the hospitals and find like this form. And there's just so much like, I think that like we're learning about this type of grief, because our society has gone so far away from the I mean, it's like, it feels like so unnatural, right for the children to die before the parents and things like that. But so they were they had, um, they have volunteers that will come and take photographs. So they had some A, and at the time, I'm like, I don't want any of this. I remember one nurse coming into the room and being like, she said something I can't remember verbatim, but something about, you know, what a beautifully handsome baby we had. And I just wanted to like screaming her face and be like, Yeah, except for He's not breathing. Yes. You know, he looks like baby doll. But he isn't alive, you know. And so I really thought it they are pretty adamant at least at this hospital that the parents should like see the baby and hold the baby, I guess they have figured out has something to do with you know, the way our brains process the trauma later. And I was really, I was really reluctant like I just I think I was in such deep shock right? I was still very much in the life this is a real you know, if I don't maybe if I don't see it, it will be real. But they did they got me to hold them and it was sweet. My my baby shower that the people from the Art Gallery through for me, they had made me this beautiful quilt that everybody had like drawn pieces like they had drawn on each square, and then somebody who made quilts like sewed it all together. So we had like, wrapped him up in that. And that was what he was cremated in which I think kind of helped me feel a little bit better. Like he was like, you know, like, wrapped in love. And yeah, and then. And then after we came home. I mean, I was just incapacitated, I was absolutely essential. I still don't really know how my gallery just didn't close down. And to be real honest with you. I didn't literally I mean, in retrospect, I realized, like spent the next two years like trying to burn into the ground. Like, I don't know how anybody dealt with me. I mean, I was such a like, post traumatic stress, fight or flight. Like, I just I don't even I don't even I wonder still. I mean, I have really good friends I guess. And that's why they're so my friends. But I was just like, a ball of just like fear and anger and confusion. And I just at one point, I finally realized it was like my life has become, I just want to get through the day so I could get back into my bed. And like not deal with life like that. That was like there's about a two year period. And it deeply affected my art. But at the same time, it was art that brought me through it, it was journaling. I did so much journaling, I would go to this park, which at the time I had dubbed my sadness park and I would just sit and cry and drink coffee and journal and throw watercolor paint on things and I mean, it's nothing that's profound or that I would ever want to really like show other people but for me, that journaling process really like helped me kind of move through the process. And then I think the other thing that was so incredibly difficult for me is I have been teaching art as almost as long as I've been making art in In some facet or another, like I really deeply care about that, like the transfer and passing down of the knowledge and I had such a strong aversion to being around children, I've always like I have a very childlike behavior yummy. You see with my Marionette dolls, like I just, I love hanging out with children, I love their overall just pleasantness and wildness and, and creativity and lack of self doubt. But then all of a sudden, I just, I just didn't I mean, being around children was so incredibly painful for me, I just, I couldn't do it, it was a very, very strange, difficult feeling. And I think it's something like it will never like, he will always be present. And he will always be a part of our family. And it's something that will has changed who I am, and I will always be this different version of myself now because of it. But then we had, you know, eventually we had a happy, you know, turn of events, and Everett was born. And then not really, I mean that. I think him being born as much as like no child can ever replace another child is him being born really was a lot of healing for me. And then I didn't even realize it. But then when Arthur was born, so many years later, I think even more I was able to be present and really like, come to a greater level of peace, where it's not like I don't you know, I don't know if you've ever suffered with PTSD. But it is just, I didn't even understand I had before on my diet. I never really experienced panic attacks or anxiety or anything like that. And so it was just earth shattering for me all of a sudden, to kind of have my mind just working against me all the time. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it's a heavy story. That's, but it's like in our life and death. Yeah. And I think like, like we spoke about before we started recording, I think it's, it is so valuable, if people can share their stories for other people to be able to hear it and relate to it. And, you know, maybe, I think I just think the more we talk about things more, we normalize things like the PTSD, like the grief, you know, any sort of mental illness, like, you know, I talked to a lot of moms with postnatal depression, I experienced that myself, anxiety, I think the more we just are able to talk about it, the more it becomes a part of life that is normal, like because it is a normal part of life. But then there's this part of society that makes us go, oh, no, no, no, no, you can't talk about that. We don't want to hear about that. Yeah, you just had a new baby, you should be so happy you should be. You should be having all of these experiences. Why are you not happy? What is wrong with you that you're not celebrating this? You know? And it just really, yeah, it's a horse really takes away from, like, what's really happening with us? And I think I always think of it as like, if I had my leg chopped off, people would treat me in a certain way, right? Like not like, like, like, I would no longer be able bodied. And there are things going on. And I think when people are going through extreme emotional duress and trauma, because it's not a visible thing. I mean, sometimes I wish that I had a shirt that would be like, I've been traumatized. You probably want to give me some space. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, this this thing about it being in your head, you know, is it real? Is it not real? Because people can't see it, you know, all that kind of questioning from from outsiders, instead of just trusting that we like that, that, that we're having a hard time and that it's hard. And that's okay. I think that's the other thing, too, like, I find so much now in my conversations with people like around the holidays and different times, you know, when we're supposed to feel a certain way. And I'm so much of a place is like, I hope you're happy today. And if you're not, that's okay, too. You know, these are even with the kids, you know, my two year old right now is very much into like, you hurt my feelings. I'm angry at you, you know, and then it's like, my, I feel like my mom always wants to kids like not to ever be angry and not in and I'm like, we just need to bail in my opinion. let their emotions be seen and validated. Okay, I hear that you're angry with me? Do you want to talk to me about why you're angry? Or do you want some time to think you know, like, we're all going to be angry, we're going to be sad. We're going to have these negative feelings sometimes. But also, we don't have to say that's what I feel like, for myself. Like, I was in such a horrible, dark, sad, sad place. But I didn't stay thank God. I didn't stay there forever. Right? Like I came. And I think even if I hadn't had children, eventually I would have come out of that place. But grief takes time. And people need to allow others to have the time and not be like when are you going to be better? When are you No? Yeah. Well, when are you going to be how you used to be? Well, I'm never going to be how I used to be a new version new season. No experiences, just let me you know, if you think that I need to be that same person, we probably aren't going to be that person. So now Yeah, that's so true. And there is no time limit because people experience everything so differently. You know, it's just there is no and see that 100 I feel like the, if you're not an I don't want to this is a big generalization now. But if you if you're not an artist, if you're, you know, an academic who's an accountant, or, you know, someone that thinks very rationally and straightforward about things, your PhD in chemical engineering. Yeah, yeah, this expectation that when you do this, this and this, you will get this outcome, and everything has a method that's been done before, and you know, what's going to happen? And it's like, no, all this stuff has its own way of happening in its own time. And there's no right or wrong. And I think that can be really hard for some people to, to get their heads around. Because it's so different to the way that they used to experiencing life. Yeah, they want it to be a formula. Grief isn't, you know, now? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I definitely don't wish that experience on anyone. And I still, I mean, every day, I wish that he was here. And I wonder always, you know, what, what would the other boys like? Like, what would Everett's life be like, as a middle child with an older sibling, I have a nephew who is three months older than Conrad would be. And so when and we live close to them, and so whenever I see them all together, I just, it's you know, I'm always in my peripheral kind of imagining him in those moments, you know, and how much it would change the dynamic of our of our lives. With your six year old and your two year old, being a mother has changed the way you approach your work and all your outcomes how you expect these things? Yeah. Is that is that all moms and all career things I can remember I have a really good friend too. She's a painter. And we got we we actually became friends she had to, she had two baby girls that died in utero. And so that kind of like, is like how, like, we became friends with the arts. But then when we realized we had this shared experience it like, you know, was someone to go through that hard time with that was having similar social reactions, if that makes sense. Like, like, when once we did both get pregnant again, neither of us wanted any baby things. Like I did not want any baby things in my home until there was a baby in the home, right? And I remember my mother in law was like, so distraught about this and, and but then I had Anna and she was like, no, she was having the same feelings. I'm like, this isn't irrational, right? But I can remember we got pregnant with our boys who were born three days apart. And we would go to we lived like down the road from each other. So we would go on these morning blocks a lot. And we would spend all this time talking about how when we had our children are living babies, it was not going to change the way that our careers were going. And we were definitely going to make sure that we set aside time and we had all these, you know, I always joke that, like, pregnant moms are the best moms because we're so delusional about what the reality of being a parent is really going to be like, right? We're just so dreamy about what it is. And then going through the experience. She has three boys now living and yeah, I mean, both of us. We talk she lives in Japan right now. And we we tried to Skype, you know, for awhile, it was like every week, but we you know, we tried to talk pretty regularly and we kind of already each other's like, supports system of like, you'll get back in the studio again, soon, you know, where we have a journal that we like, send back and forth to each other to just kind of like, keep it going. Because yes, having kids, it takes so much time and energy, you know, so with the other two boys and especially like over COVID When I was like the old, you know, the main person, I never imagined as a parent, that I would be with my children 24/7 I always imagined that I would have more external babysitters, and family members and people that could be there with the kids too, because I just think it's important for their development. You'll see how other people navigate the world, not just me and my husband. So yeah, it really I mean having the children well, to be honest with you. I closed the Galerie down after Edward was born, he was like, four months old. I can just remember James, I would have, you know, I would go into work and relieve him. James has always worked from home. So like at home with the baby, and then he'd be calling me at work. And I can hear ever like crying in the background, he's like, I can't get him to take this bottle. I don't know what to tell you, I don't bottle feed them, I nursed him, I don't know how to give him a Bob, you know. And I can just remember one point sitting in the gallery and just being like the two people that I love the most in the world or at home suffering. Because I want to do this thing. And maybe I'm a creative person, maybe I can just think of another way to do this, that works better for my family. And so that's when I made the decision that I would get a different house and that I would move the studio into the house and be more focused on the parenting thing for right now. I mean, my first, you know, 12 or 13 years of being an artist were very driven, eating, sleeping, dreaming about our all the time. But I think after Conrad dining, and not getting to experience his life, more than those nine months that I was pregnant with him, I just wanted to I do want to be with my kids as much as I possibly can. And especially in these little years. I mean, it gets exhausting, I'm not trying to glorify it, you know, when you're trying to go to the bathroom, and their fingers are under the door, and you're just like, you're so worn down and exhausted, I definitely have a lot of those moments too. But I just, they're not going to need me this, I already see it right, like the six year old, like he does not need me nearly as much. And there's going to be a time when they don't want to come climb in the bed with me and they don't want to snuggle me and there's gonna change. And so I think that like, I have been willing to put a lot of my studio time on hold, so that I can be with them. And that it's been a pretty conscious decision. I mean, my husband, I kind of go back and forth about it. Like if I'm going to take on a big commission like I do. Some production work for like historic Pensacola like art gallery, gift shops. And a lot of times those will be like a lot, a lot of pieces that all consistently have to be the same, like relatively same size and shape. And that is not something I'm really good at, like that type of precision. And also working on any deadline with kids is really hard. So that's when we kind of like go like now at before ever I take any larger Commission, we kind of look at both of our schedules and say like, is this something that I can realistically do? And we we definitely try to value a time over money. Like we're in a comfortable position where like, you know, our our we have a decent house, we couldn't get enough food. And so we would prefer to spend less, you know, more time family time and have less money. That'd be like rushing around and fighting the clock and, you know, making it more difficult for the kids because at the end like it just stresses us all out if we don't if we try to cram too many things in not enough time. Absolutely. And yeah, it impacts everyone then doesn't it just stay home and how everyone's feeling about life? I think that's like as a as a parent. And as an artist like that is one of the hardest things, right? Because especially I feel like a big part of my happiness is tied into my creative time. Right? So that's the mental conversation they have internally, it's not always 100% About the money either. It's about like I gain, like this is where being an artist and like the financial aspect, like all that stuff gets so intermingled and weird, right? Because there is some like, personal fulfillment that comes out of creating those things, too. And like, how do you put a value on that? Oh, yeah, that's a big one. I've found the last few people that I've spoken to, for the podcast, this, this value has come up a lot this this concept of how society values places value on something, and it's just so money driven. It's all about the money. It's like, if you can't sell that and have $1 figure attached to it, then it's less value than you know, I really frustrates me. Yeah, conversation and I think that maybe because I own the gallery, and oh my gosh, when I first opened the gallery, it was quite ridiculous. I might not have had the best business plan ever. And we had like a 200 square foot revolving gallery that changed about every other month and then like a retail space that sold all like kind of local handmade goods and then a very large art studio and like teaching studio. And I hadn't really done the math on how much money I needed the revolving gallery to make I don't know why I originally just thought about it kind of as this fun experimental art space like coming out of New York and coming back down here like I really wanted that right. But very quickly, I realized that like we have to have something that we can sell like, it's really cool for someone to like come in here and hang a bike from the ceiling and paint a mural on the wall and do like whatever the thing is that they're feeling at the time. But if we don't have something to sell, then then how am I going to keep the space open and like riding that line right between like commodification, and just expressing ourselves and being. So that's where James and I have come to a place now, where when I'm coming up with some because I've done some wild projects, like after the BP oil spill, I've made this thing called the SOS security blanket, which was like a community art project around pollution. And there's no way that's making any money, like it totally was just like a heart project that I needed to do to process what had happened to our, our land to our you know, our environment. And so that's what so that's something else that him and I look at together is like, how much time like do you think this is going to take? And like, is this something that you're doing because of your love? Or your need of expression? Or is it something that's going to make money, and it's nice to kind of have that partition, right, and it's a freedom to be able to say like, well, I'm going to do this project, even if nobody pays any attention to it. And I'm just doing it for me, I'm doing it, but I'm going to do these other things, you know, to sell in this gallery, or to sell in this gift shop or to you know, for this coffee shop, or whatever I'm doing afford, and that's where the money is going to come from. Hmm. So it's a it's a good balance. Yeah, yeah. Did you find in your previous conversations like that people are saying, like, they want to do things. And but they feel like they can't because? Because if you can't make money off of it, then it's not worth the time. Yeah, not so much they can it the judgment that other people place on them for choosing to do that. Or, you know, an example that I give, I can't remember now, and it's really bad. But one of the mums I spoke to back in season one, she had her mother in law, right was babysitting her sister in law's child, and would do that quite happily, because the mum was going to work and act like a day job, right? In an office doing whatever. But she wouldn't babysit her children, because mom was just fluffing about doing her art. Right? So that judgment that comes, you know, that's not a serious job. That's, you know, that's not a real job, you're just fluffing about it's like, is that how society really sees creatives? Like, how bad is the first you know? And I think it kind of even goes back to the early part of this conversation with like, form or function, right? Like how people view the worth of what we do. But in the end of the day, like, if it worked for us creatives, what would we have? Who would design the cars who designed the computers? Who would make the television programs and like every night clean? Everything is the world that we live in? I don't know, how has it come to this valued the thing? I have said this many times in these podcasts. So apologies if you've heard this story before, but in Australia during COVID with the lock downs, right? We had, the movement between the states was quite limited. You weren't allowed across the borders, it was really quite full on it was, you know, probably a bit much to be honest. But football teams were Australian rules football, right? They were allowed to cross borders, they were allowed to go and play football wherever they wanted. But it was ridiculous, you know, and it was all the arts was shutting down. People couldn't go on tours with their, you know, bands, music, whatever, that was all shut down. But these these footballers, could just go do whatever they liked. And it just really showed the stark division in our culture. And I've talked to other people around the world and similar things, you know, sport is way up here. And that's again here, but it's like, who's making all the shows that you're watching while you're in lockdown? Who's creating content? Who's, like you said, physically designing cars and building houses and, like everything you can touch and see and feel has been made by somebody creative. You know, I think society just just makes me like get on this bandwagon. It makes me so good. It's legitimate, right? And I mean, football is like fun or whatever, you know, like people enjoy it. It's good to be healthy. But what what is that really contributing towards society? I don't know if that sounds like a shallow unappreciative thing, but I personally am not really into sports. Like that's not something that I enjoy. But I also don't see like what service are they, you know, what, you know, what they were doing? They were making money. It was money, you know, all the, the advert the advertising, people that pay to have their, you know, on the shows, you know, all that sort of that commodity driven, that's what it was, and they had to keep that going at the expense of everything else. And, I mean, that's very much like the same COVID politics here. It's really for me, makes me think that we need to have some kind of universal income or that guaranteed income, right like if We had something that was like, you just had like a basic living wage, right where like everybody has enough to like, be close, because that's what I've noticed. Like, there was a time when James and I, like we had no money, we were living so far below the poverty line. And it was such a struggle. And we're both very creative people who are driven and want to contribute to society. And beyond all of these, all of these great ideas. I'm trying to think of, do you know the program? FreshBooks? Oh, no. Oh, it's like, it's like a, it's like a program to help you with your bookkeeping and stuff like that. So my husband before that was a program when I was like, starting my gallery, you know, he had the idea to make a program like that, but he had to, like, you know, be so driven to make money to spend so much of his like, mental bandwidth on how to make money to like, get gas in our cars, and he thinks that there was no space to do these things that could be really beneficial to society. And so that's what I keep thinking, like people like, oh, people are gonna be lazy and just hang out and do drugs and blah, blah, they have guaranteed income. And like, look, there's already people that are lazy, and do drugs and are just hanging out. So why don't you give the rest of us and the majority of people I think, want to do something to entertain themselves. I mean, I don't think people would just sit around and be so lazy, right. And the people that are creatively driven, would then be able to really manifest so much more of what they're capable of, instead of just like running in that wheel of making money. Yeah. In Ireland, I think I saw something not long ago that they, they going to have a living wage for artists. So they're going to get a certain amount of money. I don't know if it's per month, or per week. And I was like, That is amazing. Because just the creativity is just going to explode. Like, you know, people with no limitations. What are they gonna make? It's gonna be amazing, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully, we'll move there. That was one of the things I was hoping out of COVID that people would see is like, it's interesting how we can all not go to work. And that means the economy isn't what does the economy even me? Like, it's really just like a made up? Like, it's a system that human beings have made up? Who maybe we should try to make a better system that works for everybody instead of like a minority of people. Hmm, absolutely. That's getting off topic now. But my husband, my husband's a financial planner, so we are incredibly different mindsets, right, like, so different. Tonight. Yeah. And so during COVID, they all of them had to work remotely. They're all at home, whatever, if they had a conference, they do it all online, on Zoom, whatever. And then this week, they've announced that they, they want them to go like interstate to go to this big conference. And I said, why? Like, just because you can now why go back to normal like, you not only like, what does the environment, you know, the cost of plane, the plane travel? You know, like, why? We've shown that we can do it without it. What? Why are we learning from this? Yeah, I think it's some people are, you know, it's just maybe a slow transition. I don't know. I think I'm forever an optimist to like, I want to believe that we're getting we've gotten something out of out of this difficult time. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with that. You touched on earlier about your feeling when you're in the gallery and you had your husband on the phone trying to give the bottle and things weren't working. And you had that moment where you went, you know, the two most important people in my life are there and I'm here that sort of I don't want to put words in your mouth but like that, that guilt sort of creeping in trouble. Yeah, it was. Mum Mum gives us a topic that I asked all my guests about. Can you share sort of your thoughts about put it in air quotes? Monkey? Oh, cuz it's like a construct to think about? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think it doesn't matter what your career is. Right? Like as a woman, it's a strange thing like the post feminist woman like we're no we're we're still expected to be these amazing moms. Keep a good house. Not look like a big mess. Right and like show up for everybody all the time. And I think it does create a huge amount of guilt. We're like, we are never enough. There are never enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things for all the people and then I think the more than anything we don't like do There's no value on recharging for ourselves, right? Like, it's almost like a like this weird luxury like, Oh, you're gonna go have quiet time for yourself for an hour. And that's a priority for your life. What about your dishes? You know, and it doesn't create this, like, very uncomfortable level of guilt. And it's like, Well, why don't you ask my husband about the dishes? Because he's a partnership. You know, like, I mean, he is great. Like, I'm not dissing on him at all. Like, he is an amazing 100%. Like, we are partners, we both do all the things, but like, from people looking in, right, whatever that social guilt is that social structure guilt, societal guilt of like, it doesn't matter how much we do, it is never ever enough. Yeah, I think that it caused me something, there's definitely days that I like, I'm in my pottery studio, and I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna set a timer. And the kids have like, their 45 minutes of screen time that they can have. And I'm going to do X amount of projects, and then that timer goes off, and I ignore it, the kids are happily in there with their screen time. And I'm just like, in the zone, and so happy. But then I come out of the zone. And I'm so guilt ridden. I'm like, Oh, they watched an extra hour of TV, you know, and just really write myself, but then I'm like, Oh, my gosh, what's an extra hour TV to me being refreshed, and able to be more present with them? And I think that that's like how I'm trying to navigate the mom guilt. But it is. It is real, and it is hard. And it it just it makes doing everything difficult, right? Like I want to say being a creative difficult, but it's not just being a creative, right? It's just that like, constant need to make sure that your kids are in the right schools, your kids are playing the right sports or doing the right extracurricular activity, or I don't even know and I don't know what, like you were saying before about like, some people just want a formula, you know, or like a way like to know what to do. And sometimes I feel like that is a mom and like, I wish you could just I guess they do right? They say like the pediatric recommended recommendation for hours of free time, right? I don't. I don't know what the answer is. But yes, definitely. struggle with it so much. And sometimes I have a studio assistant that comes and helps me sometimes. And she also has a small child. And she came in the other day. And Arthur was like, in a diaper in my studio, sitting in a chair with the iPad, like prop of the stool in front of it. And she was like, Oh my gosh, it's so refreshing to see that this is how you get things done. And I'm like, Yeah, I guess maybe I should put more of that, like on social media. I think that that's always the hard thing, too. That creates a lot of guilt within us, right as we have these very meticulously cure. I mean, I don't, I would not, say a meticulously curate my, via social media, but like, it's not like I want it to be a snapshot of the reality of my life. But I definitely am not taking pictures of my kid in my underwear with like, boogers all over it. Watching his iPad, like eating pirate booty, you know? I mean, maybe we should do that. Maybe we should do that more. I don't know. I mean, it's not beautiful. It doesn't fit into that. It's the gram. But that's the thing, too. I think so many times. I know personally, I've taken a photo of a similar sort of situation, like I'm trying to record something. So I've got the kids doing something, whatever it is. And I'll hesitate posting because I think the amount of people that are going to judge me for that, that don't know, my, that aren't in my home. And I think for a second I think Oh, bugger. Um, and then I think, no, because how I don't know, I just can't wear it. You know what I mean? I I'm not ready for I suppose. judging me judgment is real. And it doesn't feel like I think that's it like the mom guilt is feeling like we're not adequate. Like, we're suddenly to the people that we love the most in the world. We're somehow damaging them or like not doing good enough for them. Right. And so the idea that some stranger is going to kill him, and he's going to say that to you. It's like, yeah. Oh my gosh, that just heightens that inner voice that somehow I'm not doing this, right. Absolutely. Or I'm not doing it well enough. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we need to have some kind of like, social media space. It's like, like, what was that? Oh, I think it was like a Pinterest fails or something like one of those. Like, some grandparenting disaster thing where like, we all just like put the reality. You know, here's my kid, like covered and whatever, do something crazy. We could just be honest, without fear. Yeah, without the fear of judgment. Judge freezone Yeah, yeah. Yeah. First, yeah, another thing that frustrates me and then I frustrate myself because I think why am I letting other people that I don't know. You know, I do know a lot of people that I follow but a little follow me a lot of people I don't know, why am I letting that worry me? Why don't I just like, the way I approach my music is like, I'll make my music for me, right? I don't make it for anyone in Most people are going to love it, there's people that aren't going to love it. But that doesn't affect the way that I make my music. I just do it because I want to. So why don't I have the rest of my life like that? You know, it's like, maybe because it's so? I don't know, because it affects you, like you said, it's you're talking about the people that you love the most, and you try to do the best for them. So if someone then brings to your attention that perhaps, maybe you shouldn't be doing this, you're like, oh, no, I'm ruining my children, you know, because it affects somebody else. It's harder to do. Yeah. And I feel like the way you're describing creating is also my same process, right? Like, it's this weird, like, I'll get like, the spark of an idea. And then it's like, I'm like, I want to, like, I want to see it manifested or maybe for you, like you want to hear it like in this three dimensional world. And so it's like, spending this time to, like, bring it forward from a very, from like, a complete non existence into the world, right. And I don't know what the kids is like, they're already here. And they're already like, throwing tantrums sometimes and why, like, they definitely do things that I mean, my children regularly do things that make me question like, am I somehow doing this wrong? So then I think when someone you know, when someone has the audacity to tell me that I'm doing it wrong, because they saw some picture that I thought I was funny that I put on Instagram, it really? Yeah, it makes me question more. And I think, I don't know, I'm definitely no parenting expert. But I think no matter what happens, everybody experiences some kind of trauma in their life. So it doesn't matter. Like how good of a parent we tried to be or how, you know, wonderful. We tried to make everything for our kids like they're, they're going to run into bullies or difficult times, you know, so I don't know. Yeah, somehow we have got to let go of I'm gonna think about that. More like that idea of like being the perfect parent and why? Or maybe the perfect isn't even my work. But what is it that causes that guilt? Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's something for us to think about. Yeah, to get to the root of it, because maybe if we can understand it, we can stop feeling it so much. Yeah, you know, absolutely. That's good. We've had a bit of syrup. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, there was a joke. At one point in my pottery studio, they were like, oh, pottery, Mercedes, it's cheaper than therapy. And I was like, you guys, I'm gonna have to raise my prices. Because I don't know if I could be handled via your therapist, and your pottery teacher. That's a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure. Moving back to your, your art and your work. Have you got anything coming up in the future that you want to share about or anything that you've got work you're working on now that you want to give a bit of a plug? Tell us what you're up to. Well, I don't I mean, I have a lot of ideas in the works but I don't have anything like for sure dates. Like I was saying earlier, I'm hoping that the fall of this year to have a show together a full body of work around the marionettes but I'm not 100% Sure but that like that is what's in what I'd like crafting in my mind for my next like big group work. And then I'm currently working on a series that will just go into retail shops that is something that I tend to touch on almost every spring which is kind of like botanical themed pieces. So I've been creating these I'm calling them plates but it's not like it's like a printer's plate not like a plate that you would eat off of. So I'm pushing the flowers into the clay and then I'm gonna use those to like make the plates off of I've got a few of them I think I might have posted them on my interest Instagram, but I'm going to do a whole spring collection around like that there's so it'll all be like you know, things that are in bloom right now on bowls and plates and probably some planters so usually I tried to do a spring collection in the fall collection so that and that main relief will be like online, through artists on a boutique, but I don't have a date or anything like that, that yet. And then during COVID I started folding the 1000 paper cranes. Again, it's a second time that I've done it and I'm about I think about a little over 400 in so I'm hoping I'm still not sure how what that is going to manifest into other than like I did it you know, I don't know if you know the story of the 1000s papercraft as I can ask you. Yeah, so it's a it's a Japanese tradition that I think I don't know where it really originated, but a lot of the stories that you hear revolve around the Hiroshima Like the bombing of Hiroshima, and the the people trying to heal after that. So the idea is the person that folds 1000 origami cranes, like it's like a meditation and a wish for something. And so people didn't really people that are ill, or people that are getting married, things like that the 1000 frames for them. So during COVID, I decided, I think it was like during the second wave or something like that, that I was going to fold it for, like, you know, the end of like, for a healing for our world for COVID. And also like for my COVID anxiety because I think that cry crafting a just moving my hands really helps me just deal with that like anxious energy. So anytime I would feel really overwhelmed about something to do with COVID, I would just like pull the crane pull the crane. So I'm not sure. I may do some kind of installation with that after the fact that haven't 100% decided where those credits are going to end up. But so far. So that's another project that I'm currently in the works on. But nothing was solidified. Because that's one of my things as like with the being a parent and an artist. I tried not to give myself very many deadlines. Because that that if you're stressed out, and not a very good parent, or artists. Yeah, that's it. It's hard to do anything with that sort of pressure over your head, and then you everything suffers because you like you can't stop being a parent. And you can't stop being an artist. But sometimes they can't work at the same time. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yep, I love that. This has been a nice talk. Oh, it's been awesome. I really enjoyed. I've really, really enjoyed talking to everybody, because I enjoy talking to everybody. But I've really, really enjoyed talking to you. It's been really lovely. Yeah, well, what a great job to get to talk to artists about art, you know, and that's what we love. It's so good. Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for doing this. I mean, I think it's so good for the global mom, community for all of us. You know, it really, it's, it's lovely to like be in the studio and just listening to other artists like talk about how they do it and get ideas, you know, yeah, that's it. A lot of people have said that, actually, it's really good to hear how the people are doing it. And it's just reassuring to hear that we're all in the same boat. Like it's just, we're all gone through that evacuation. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Edwina Masson Australian vocal loops artist S3 Ep88 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Edwina Masson is my guest this week, a musician and mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. Edwina was born in Brisbane and moved 5 states before she was 10 years old. She didn't have a lot of stability in her home location but her constant was the music that she listened to as a family, Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates towards music to cope with stress and emotions. She started composing music in year 5 on Garage Band, and began to develop a love for harmony. During high school she was music captain and sang, played clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family, and went on to study performing arts at university, and lectured also. Edwina describes her musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, using her voice as the instrument. and creating emotionally dense music which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021 she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and couldn't find it. Edwina began to write music that she need to get though, initially only meant for her, but on realising that others could benefit from it in 2022 Edwina released the album Birth of A Mother. It's the music she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Edwina has recently created the Live Loops Choir in the Noosa Hinterland, a non audition, any ability singing group to be able to create the music she loves in a live setting. If you are in the neighbourhood check it out, link below. This episode contains mentions of hyperemesis gravidarum, birth trauma, post natal depression, miscarriage and traumatic early childhood. Edwina - instagram / live loops choir / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Edwina throughout the episode When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. It is a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening around the world. My guest this week is Edwina Masson. a tweener is a musician and a mum of one based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. That duaner was born in Brisbane, and she moved around five states before she was 10 years old. It was these changes in location and schools that created the instability in her life. But the constant was the music that she listened to with our family. Musicians like Paul Kelly, Led Zeppelin, the WHO Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. Edwina credits this time as the reason she gravitates toward music to cope with stress and changes in emotions. She started composing music when she was in year five, using GarageBand and began to develop a love of harmony. During high school she was Music captain, and she sang play clarinet and double bass. After high school she decided she was going to be a singer, much to the surprise of her family. And she went on to study Performing Arts at uni and also became a lecturer at Duany described describes her current musical style as a vocal loops artist. She creates songs with many, many layers, sometimes up to 50, using her voice as the instrument and creating emotionally dense music, which goes on a journey and often without lyrics. While Edwina was experiencing a particularly traumatic pregnancy in 2020 and 2021, she began searching for music that would support her experiences, and she couldn't find it. So Edwina began to write music, the music that she needed to get through, initially only meant for herself, but on realizing that others could benefit from it too. In 2022, Edwina released the album, Birth of a mother, it's the music that she wishes she had accessible to her at the time of being pregnant. Dwayne has also recently created the live loops choir in the Noosa hinterland and non audition, any ability singing group to be able to perform the music she loves in a live setting. And if you're in the neighborhood, I encourage you to check it out. I've put the link in the show notes. Today's episode does get quite full on at times, just letting you know that it contains mentions of a traumatic pregnancy and birth and postnatal depression and also mentions of miscarriage. Throughout this episode, you'll hear snippets of a Dwayne his music, particularly from the album birth of a mother and I encourage you to check it out to again, the links in the show notes. It's just beautiful music and it just soothes your soul. No matter what stage you're in. Whether you are a new mother pregnant, or you've got kids that are 15 years old, it really speaks to all of us. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're gonna love this episode, and take care do doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, it's absolutely my pleasure. It's lovely to put a face to the sounds like I mean, I've seen you on Instagram, obviously, but to speak to you, after listening to, to your incredible music. It's really, really lovely to meet you. Oh, that's so that's so sweet. I get that. You know what, I actually get that more often than you think. Because other people listen to my music. And I don't actually, it's really interesting as a musician, like you put music out and you kind of think that, like, no one's listening to it. And then you just like, it's just for me. And then somebody's like, you're the person and I'm like, Yeah, my music sounds so deep. And then you meet me and you're like, you're a dork. Edwina. Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. Yes. So we're about to you at the moment. Where are you? What in the world are we has a really good question. We are currently on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland in Australia. And we've been here I think for about seven months now. Seven months we've been living here and it's just so beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. I am, we used to come up for a couple of years in a row, we came up to Caloundra for a family holidays. And I just loved it up there. I just loved it. We loved it so much. You went to exactly the same place two years in a row. We just loved it so much. It's like why do we need to go anywhere else? If it ain't broke? Don't fix it. We're in like the kind of like the Noosa hinterland. Oh, yeah. And it's just where it's so beautiful. It's like I spent years just like dreaming about living in like a rainforest. And we do now and it's just, oh, I look out my window every day. And I feel so lucky. So happy to be here yet. Do you have all those? I don't know what sort of birds they are. But I've never heard them because I'm from that Gambia right down south. And there's these birds like they made like a whipping with Yes. Yeah. Like the Lyrebirds. Like the Yeah. And they had like the rainforest bird. Yeah, yeah, that we do have them and you can go out on the balcony first thing in the morning, and you can hear them and it is just like, you are transported to deep rainforest when you hear those birds there. Yeah, we do have them and they are spectacular. Yeah. No, I love that I love. Yeah. And the other thing I remember there being up there was that it got it got light a lot earlier than what it does at home. And so like you'd be woken up with this beautiful bird song. And it was just like, oh my gosh, and then you'd see like, we're staying at the beach at the ocean. It was just like, why did we live where we live? What we need to do here? Yeah, it does. It's like both a blessing and a curse that the sunrise is so early, like the sunrises before five. At the moment, the sun is I can see the sun restarting, like it gets light at like 450. And like, I know that because my child wakes up at that time. So this is before the sun is even, like awakened. My child's like it's going to rise in the next 10 minutes, Mom, I'm ready for it. Like I'm just beating it up, they're ready to give it away when it comes. That's gorgeous. God, it's up to us to keep them I can see how close you are. So you're a singer, songwriter, performer? How did you first get into music? Wow, it's a great question. I grew up moving a lot. So I was born in Brisbane. And then we moved to states five times before I was 10. And yeah, and I didn't have a lot of stability and like the home that we were living in or the friends that I had. And so something that was always really constant in my life was the music that we listened to as a family. It was always like Paul Kelly and Led Zeppelin and the who and Ella Fitzgerald and classical music. And that was like such a core memory of stability and safety for me that I think that really had an impact on when I was getting older what I gravitated towards to cope with stress and to cope with emotion. And I think I was about I was about 10 And we had we just moved to Western Australia. And I remember going into year five and singing just like singing in class. And it was the first time that like a kid had told me that I had a good voice and I was like What do you mean, my family told me that I sound like a dying cat. Literally, they would say that and then I had all these kids being like, Oh, you can really sing. And then suddenly I was like oh that's the thing. Like in my mind. It was the thing that set me apart. So my Had I kind of developed a slightly unhealthy attachment to singing for a long time of like it was my entire self worth. Yeah. And I just kept singing. And then when I graduated high school, I was like to my parents, I'm going to be a singer. And like the shock and horror on their faces of oh, dear Lord, how is she gonna make this work? Because they barely knew that I was like a singer. I was always playing clarinet and double bass, but I never told them that I was a singer until the end of year 12, even though I was like Music captain sung in choirs as sung solo at school all the time. Like I just never told them. Oh, by the way, actually sing all the time. Yeah. So image in your head of this dying cat singer. They really had very little clue that I was as good as I was. Yeah. And I remember them. I remember singing at like the highest high school, entire school presentation that at the end of the year at this big old, like theater, and then hearing me really, for the first time seeing was like a 70 person choir behind me. And I remember afterwards and being like, Are you kidding? Like, what do you mean that you have been singing and being taught for like, what? Why didn't you want to tell us and it was like a whole thing of like me just not telling them that I was a singer, because I didn't want them to tell me that I sounded bad. Oh, yeah. So then I Yeah. And so then I went into performing arts university. And that was an experience and then I lectured and yeah, that was kind of how it all started for me. Yeah, right. Something that's really big for you is harmony, which is I love is I've spent so many years of my life two part singing, and I just adore it. When did you first sort of start to recognize harmony as an actual thing, and start to fall in love with it? Well, I started writing instrumental music before I ever started singing. So I was, I was in year five. And my family had just gotten like the first Apple Computer. And I remember GarageBand being on there, and it was free. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you mean I can put like, I can just make music. And I would spend hours on there just like bashing the typing keyboard as like a piano keyboard, just writing different parts and different. And that's when I started really, I had no idea what harmony was, I didn't know what intervals or anything like that was. But I remember, I listened to classical music growing up. And I had listened to such amazing artists that it was already like, clicking inside of my system, or this, this sounds good. And like this does not sound good. And so it was really very young that I started realizing that I loved harmonies, and then I sang in choir in school. And I always just had this obsession with like harmony was the tool that you could use to express emotion and not need words. And that to me when I was growing up was very important because I didn't necessarily want to talk about what I was feeling. Or there wasn't this wasn't necessarily a space for me to be able to talk about how I was feeling. And harmony was this tool that I was able to use to be like, I am feeling angry, or I'm feeling such pain or such joy and not have to actually with words, say those things. So it definitely was like my own form of therapy for many years. Yeah, that's it. I've never actually thought of it that way. But that is so true. It's like it evokes so much in you when you hear these particular, you know, chords and constructs of notes. That's really incredible. Thanks for Thanks for sharing that. So welcome. It was, honestly I remember being like, the melody, like in contemporary singers today. The thing I always talk to my students about is like, your Lyric should only be doing 50% of the work. Your melodies and harmonies that support the lyrics that you're using. should be doing. Like if you took away the lyrics does your melodies actually say anything? And that was the massive thing for me is like I spent so much time being like, How can I communicate how I feel, without ever having to say one word and harmony was such an amazing tool to use. So it was like a low key obsession of mine. Yeah, I'm pleased because you're very, you've got a very it's like an innate natural ability, which I love. I think that's awesome. Because I think sometimes you can't teach that stuff. I know you can. You can actually teach it but just to get it like I had no formal train Writing in harmony. My dad used to listen to a lot of country music. So Johnny Cash, John Java course all male, like male voices, and I have an alto voice, but that's not that low, you know? It's not John. Hello, thankfully. So yeah, I, I developed a way to sing along to the songs in the car, because I couldn't sing the tune in their, in their, in their what is their their vocal range, there's their register in that register, that's what I'm after. And I couldn't sing it up the octave because my voice was too low. So I started to sing harmony, harmony without knowing what it was just to be able to join in and sing the songs because I love the song so much. And that's just did that too. Oh, and it's like, I'd never been taught and I never knew the words for until years later when people started explaining to me or you're singing in thirds, or you're seeing in whatever is and I was like, Well, that's nice. Glad I know what that means. But I had that's cool. What I do, you know, yeah, and it's just it's worked really great because my sister and I have been together for years as a duo. And I just naturally take the harmonies because it's like, you know, it's just there in your body sort of thing and hear some people are much some people's ears are definitely more receptive and perceptive of harmony. And they find it a lot easier to hear for sure in like when I was lecturing, you could really tell the musicians whose ear was more sensitive to harmony. Yeah, it was yeah, it was something that it usually came down to the type of music that they'd listened to growing up. They were listening to music like country music, a lot of country music has a lot of harmony in it. Like particularly a lot of like, country groups. There's a whole bunch of there. It's so harmony dense in regards to like, there'll be three parts singing the melody like Yes, yep. So it is really interesting seeing how the music you grow up with hugely influences where your strength will lie if you are interested in being a musician. Yeah, that's really cool. That's really cool. The other thing I find I do find it frustrating though, because when you've got that ear and you're used to picking nights and hearing things, when you hear something that's not quite right, it really frustrates you are don't even honest to God. It's like it's a blessing and a curse being so trained in music. I honestly, I remember I went through a phase probably when I was at university, and I was studying it for literally like eight, nine hours a day, I was studying music. And it got to a point where I went definitely went through like a snobby snobby vase being like, What do you mean, you're singing flat? And it feels like, it's like, you know, the pee in the mattress? Yeah, like the old storytel. Yeah, yeah, it felt like that I would hear everything and hear something was flat, I would hear if it didn't match up, I would hear if the harmonies weren't falling. Like the same vibrato, like my ear was so trained that I for a while I actually couldn't enjoy a lot of music. Yeah, yeah. And I actually when I remember when I graduated, I actually had to take a step back and be like Edwina, why did you start singing in the first place? Because it wasn't about the academics. Yeah, it was, it was truly about how it made you feel. You just have the tools to express how you feel better now, but like, yeah, I definitely resonate with what you're saying. So I remember listening to other musicians and being like, they caught even saying, like no, I'm not. I don't think that at all now, but I definitely went through that phase. Oh, yeah. Because, like, I often think about the fact that like, if I wasn't as good as I was, I wouldn't be up there. Because I'm so judgmental on myself that, like, I used to have a habit of judging others with the same lens that I judged myself and because they would never level up to what the capabilities of myself I was like, Why do you think you should be up there? So definitely like to that. Yeah, it's it takes a takes a while to unpack it, for sure. So I understand that. Yes. And I personally had to let go of a lot of like jealousy, like, oh, how come they get to do it? I can do this. Why can I do it? And over the years, I've gotten very good at just going you know what, it's not nothing to do with you, Allison, this is this person. This is where they are in their life and their journey and you have no idea where they come from or what they're doing. And I've just gotten really good at like going that's good on them. I'm really pleased for them. That took a little bit. It's really hard as like a musician when for my personal experience when I was studying it was such a competitive environment that you couldn't help like that you weren't told that there was room enough for everybody. Yeah, space existed for everyone. So you would it was like inbuilt in you to become judgmental and to become competitive and to become this. This thing where you believe that you know if you didn't get that opportunity And then you like you were missing out on the break on the on the next opportunity. And I definitely went through that we will literally got ranked when I was at university. Yeah, we would end the top four singers would get all the opportunities. And I was lucky to always be in that top four. But I remember the, like, I remember the levels that I like, how much I work to be in that top four and how I had massive burnout at the end of studying because of it. Yeah. So it definitely like the music industry breeze you for competitiveness, and it actually takes active, unlike undoing to just allow someone to sing and not charge them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up doing a Stanford's. They used to put me in a sentence from a very young age. And I think it's the worst thing that ever happened to me, because I just think continued to go through life thinking I was being judged all the time all the time. Yep. Yep. Yep, I still work through that stuff. Yeah. And you have an expectation that whatever, whatever this person tells you must be right. Because they're the adjudicator, you know? And it took me took me years until someone said to me, Allison, are you going to let one person's opinion might like, change your opinion of yourself? You're gonna let that one person have that much control over you. And I just went? Yeah, no, that's what I've been doing since I was like, I don't know. Young Child. Yep. Like, and yeah, music is. So beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Every person will like a particular type of music and like a particular type of voice better. So it's really hard. I remember when I was lecturing, how hard it was to mark someone on the skill. Because it's like, I always knew that I had biases to the types of voices that I liked. So I had to really actively be like, Okay, if I take away my own bias, how do they technically like when we're looking at technique? How the technique because there are some vocal tones that I just love, and there are others that I am interested in. So it is a really, that's why studying music and it's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah, yeah, I have memories of like, but just before I set for the started, like the room is room, excuse me, the rumor mill would start up about who's the adjudicator? And what sort of voice Do they like? And then when we knew that they liked surprise all those hours ago, stuff, nice, you know, what we bother, you know, if you could get you down right from the start, you know, you'd go out there just thinking that they're not gonna like me, because they like sopranos, you know? Yeah. So that, that kills a little person's head. And, you know, it took me took me to I was certainly my young adulthood to actually say to myself, You know what, I don't need to do this anymore. Like, yeah, no one's making me do this anymore. Why am I doing this? I'm actually so thankful that I didn't do a lot of those things when I was that young singing was something that was so incredibly like, personal and like, sacred to me from a very young age. And I didn't have singing lessons until I got into performing arts university because of the fact that I was always like, I don't want someone else to take this, this thing that I have, but I was so young, and I recognize that I recognize. Yeah, and then when I started university, I was like, my song, my voice is the audible version of my soul, I will protect it with my life, because it meant so much to me. And I think that's the reason why I didn't want to have singing lessons in high school because I knew someone was going to come in. And like, I was just learning my voice. I was just like, in this point in time where I didn't want to compete for it. I didn't, I just knew, but then I went to university and it was like, wow, like whiplash? Oh, yeah. Suddenly coming into a highly competitive environment. Being so unlike I was on trained, but I was really passionate about it. So I was able to pick things up very quickly. And it went from being a therapy to being a sport. It was it was a real, a real change for me. And it took I wanted to quit so many times because I was like, I don't love this anymore. This isn't why I started singing. Yeah, and I remember just my lecturer who was spectacular, telling me you know, you have to think of these simply as tools that we're trying to teach you so that you can access your therapy even more specific specifically so I can sing with more nuance and I can have more vocal range to communicate how I'm feeling and I had to come back to that so many times because otherwise it just wasn't worth it. It just wasn't worth it. It was like could you you were you really protective of that because you thought people were going to try and change what you had. Well I would listen to people voices change like really change I was like, This is not you have any more or and I came later came to learn a lot about placement and how placement affects tone and, and I would hear singers mimic other singers. And I was like, well, that's no longer you. You're manipulating your placement to sound like someone else. And therefore it means that you're not actually authentically singing your voice and you're like your story. And that was something for really young age that I was like that's, that's I'm not I'm not willing to do that. Yeah, that's actually one of my pet peeves in in singers is people who manipulate their voice to sound a particular way. It just really makes me just, I just think, and then when they successful at that, and then I've got to finish back, you know, I think that's not even you. Yeah. Because, like we go through stages as a society as being told this is the voice like Christina Aguilera. Oh, my gosh, you had millions of young white children, young white females trying to sound black. Yeah, because of Christina Aguilera, Christina Aguilera had multiple vocal health issues because of her terrible technique in her lower part of her range. She can no longer belt as high as she could, because of how she treated her voice. Yeah. So it was definitely I remember being like, I want to be Christina Aguilera. Like when I was when I was really young. And then I was like, well, this hurts. Yes. Yes. Do this. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely. I think about that often. And I just am thankful to the younger version of myself who was really protective of it. Because I probably wouldn't still be singing if I had been in a Stanford because I cannot compete when it comes to voice like I just I can't do it. I can't do it. I used to do piano. And I did one concert and I would never do it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just, it just takes out like you said this. The soul things like it's just, I don't know. It's odd. I hate them. And I, I paint them with a passion. And I wish I mean, I guess it's taught me something. You get something out of it. But yeah, it wasn't that great. But anyway, enough of that. I know there are times when you feel like you can't do it on your own. I promise you, you're God. So tell me about your album that you released last year, which is amazing. Thank you. That was a birth of a mother. Yes. Yes. So I wrote those songs. When I was pregnant with my son in 2020s. Yeah, 2020 I, like started writing songs and 2021. And for me, they literally those songs were only ever meant for me. It was I had a really tough pregnancy. I had hyperemesis gravidarum I had every everything under the sun. When it comes to like side effects. I used to get pregnancy hives, my vocal cords was so swollen because of how much I was throwing up. Yeah, it was the like, it was so dark that period of time. And I remember being like, where is the music that is specifically for someone like myself, like, where's the music that is for someone who is terrified of becoming a mother, even though they want it so much or terrified of birth. I just needed like a, an audible birthing step. Like that's what it felt like to me, I just needed to write these songs to help me feel supported. And so that's what I did. And because I couldn't work because I couldn't. My vocal stamina was so affected by the sickness, I had a lot of time. To slowly record these songs, I listened back to the vocals, like the lead vocals on some of those songs. And I'm like, oh, man, you can hear the fatigue. Like I know my worth well enough, and I can hear the fatigue, I can hear just how hard I found that period of time in my life. And so they were just the biggest support for me. And that's why I decided after like after, I think I was pretty pregnant when I started releasing the songs, not on Spotify. And I remember other women being like, oh my gosh, thank you. Because like, I was never really into mantra music or like the, those types of things. I was like, I want it to feel contemporary enough that someone who is not spiritual at all, can listen to it and not be like what is this? Yeah. And so it was like bringing my very like specific type of writing into a space where I was like 50% of the population have mothers or mothering or parenting or birthing babies, and there was like, no music just for them. Oh my gosh, yeah. How, how? Oh, how and so I just, I just couldn't get over that. I was like, once again, there's so underrepresented as mothers in, like, I know, there were so many female mother artists, but where is the music that is actually for them. So that's why I created the music. And then last year, I was finally like, I just need these to exist in the world. I just need them to be somewhere easy, even though it doesn't make me money. Because Spotify or Spotify, but I was just like, it just has to exist somewhere. Because, like, I just got to a point where I was like, it's not just for me, it's bigger than me. It's just bigger than me. And so that's why they're on Spotify now. And I just love the album. I still go back and listen to it. I still go backwards to it. Yeah, yeah. So for for those who haven't heard it, how do you how can you describe? Because it is very unique. Yeah, the way that you put things together and you add delays? Can you just describe how you do it? Maybe a process of how you put it together? Yeah, so essentially, I'm a vocal looping artist. So I create songs 95%, just with my voice. So essentially, it is a song where every instrument that you might hear in a normal track is my voice in my music. Yeah, it's I don't know, I don't know, genre, in regards to my music, like it really is really hard to, but it definitely has influences of many different styles. And yeah, it was one of my all time favorite time to this day favorite artists and has been probably one of the biggest influences in the way that I write. But yeah, that's how I would kind of, I would say it's like a mix of ner with Gosh, I don't even know that's a really hard thing. I used to be really good at describing what I did when I wrote like, pop music. And how I'm just like, you have to hear it. Yeah, no, literally. But it is it's very vocally dense, harmonically dense music that takes you on quite the emotional journey. Hmm, absolutely. Now that's a great way of describing it. Did you make a sort of a considered decision to not include instruments in your work? Was it like, this is you're taking ownership of this yourself? Yeah, it was I, I, when I first started, like performing I had an 11 piece band, I had a big band, I had three horns, three backing vocalists, it was like the full shebang. And the first EP I ever released was, was that it was massive. And then I remember finding it so hard to ever do gigs or to ever, like it was just a really difficult thing. And I remember being like, these instruments aren't even accurately doing or playing what I exactly want in my head, because they're all bringing their own personality and their own filter to the souls. And I remember just starting to do vocal, I started vocal looping when I was 17. And I'm 29 now. So I started vocally exploring harmony and rhythm with my voice a long time ago. And I think I was 21 or 22 When I started writing, just vocal music. And it took me a really long time to accept that that's what felt most authentic for me as a musical expression. Because I was always like, this doesn't fit anywhere in music like this doesn't, it didn't fit anywhere. It was never going to end up on radio, in the radio stations that I dreamed of like I really grappled with that for a long time. Because I was like, this just isn't like anything else I've heard. And I didn't know where it would fit. So it took me a really long time to just be like, well, this is this is me like this is this is what goes on in my brain. And I just remember getting to a point where I was like this, I have to honor the fact that if I'm going to be a musician, I am going to be an authentic musician. And this is what is going to have to sound like and it might not be for everybody. But I can go back and listen to this music and know exactly how I was feeling and hear every single vocal harmony and know that It was placed there, because my brain was like it needs to be placed there. So intentional. Yeah, it is, it was really intentional. And it's like I love collaborating with others. However, I always loved being able to have a bit of a control freak, probably. I liked being able to control where everything sat and the I knew that I could sing certain things better than other singers. And when I was my song, I wanted to be able to exactly replicate my harmony, exactly replicate, like, my vibrato on certain things. So that it would wouldn't each pot Ness doesn't necessarily stand out. By itself. It kind of feels like a wall of sound. Yeah. And so I just practiced and did that and just wrote, and I look back at the first vocal looping songs that I ever recorded in my bedroom. And it's like three layers. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And now you now you look at my recorded files of my songs, and it's like, minimum 40 to 50 layers of stuff. Oh, wow. Because everything gets doubled, and we pull things to the left and pull things to the right. And there's parts that exact like work exactly, just as rhythmic stuff. And, and to me, I was just like, oh, this just feels so cool. To like, Okay, so my two biggest influences are Enya. And Bobby McFerrin. Yeah, right? Yep. I studied him when I was studying at university, and he had such a huge impact on me, because he's ranged was phenomenal. And his ability to move, I just had never heard anyone like that. And I went, so I dove so deep into his vocal past. And that's why I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to try and replicate that on a looper because I couldn't sing as low as him. And that's kind of how it really like that love affair of like being able to just be voice because his was just voice you would hear him collaborate with other musicians. And he would be singing the baseline, while the double bass player was playing, like some type of melody. It was just like, holy moly, that just blew my mind. Like it was just had such a profound impact on me. So those two together is kind of how I ended up with what I do now. Bodies Yeah, a couple of things from that. I want to mention that when you talked about having to sort of have this, I'm gonna call it an existential crisis, but literally deciding between what was genuine and authentic for you to present as your music and what I think what music industry or being in the music environment tells us, our end goal is we have to be heard we have to be on radio, we have to get our break, we have to do this, you know, it's fighting against all that. Yeah, it's, it's pretty hardcore, I really had a hard time with it. I, when I go back on my own catalogue of music, you literally see the evolution of that crisis of me starting to write with that 11 piece band and then moving into one like almost electronic music. And that was the moment where I was like, you've gotten too far off, like you've gone too far away from I was singing lead vocals on like, EDM tracks, like, like club bangers. Yeah. And I was like, you have gone so far away from where you're meant to be. And because I had health issues, I remember thinking to myself, you only can sing a certain amount of hours a day, you only have the energy to do so much creation, if you're going to do it. It needs to be something that you will love. And it needs to be something that makes you feel like truly seen and truly heard. And that was something I was so passionate about is is what I'm putting out into the world. Is that Is that me? Is that me? And the more that I practice, and that's why I always say to people, you know, your first thing doesn't have to be this thing that gets you your followers that gets your big break, whatever that means to you. Like just start because I look back and I'm like, I'm so happy I recorded that music and released it because that you can literally see the evolution of myself as an artist and trying to work hard to get to a place where the music I'm releasing most accurately reflects my internal state. And I remember when I finally got there it just like that was the vocal loop. It was just like a clip. Yeah, and it was just like, Ah, this is it. Like this is me. This is all the everything I hear in my head. I can finally create something that like that everyone else can listen to. Because even when I was with the 11 piece band, I'd be hearing so much more in my mind that was never going to be able to be played by another instrument. And other singers would were having a trouble hearing the harmonies or I couldn't have 17 singers on stage with me. So I just couldn't do that it was just, I couldn't get paid any money doing that, like I just there was no, there was no money. So if it was just me on stage with my Looper one, I would actually make money. And two, I was able to have ultimate freedom and ultimate control. Yeah, and not have to worry about someone else keeping up with me. And it was just as like, oh, that's what it felt like, it felt like such a big sigh of relief. That's what it definitely felt like, yeah, I can relate to that on a slightly different level. But same sort of thing. I do have control issues. And my sisters listening should be nodding your head right now. Because I, as I'm gonna say, I hear things, and I know how I want it to sound. And I'm getting better. I mean, I think I've, since I've totally got over it, but I don't have to do at all. Like, it doesn't have to be me. But when I spent 20 years singing in a vocal group, and towards the end, it was just, it had gone from this massive choir to like we would I was involved in like the Committee stage of things. And we, we turned it into four or five, sort of niche groups. So I was in this, this group of there were six of us. And we're, we're doing part singing. And I guess every group is going to have a leader. And it wasn't me, which was fine, because I didn't want to lead but I wanted to have my ideas heard. And I wanted to be able to say, actually, can we do it like this? Or can we try it at this tempo or whatever. But the personality clashes made it really hard to do that. So I just went, I'm not doing this anymore. And I didn't do any anything except for I turned myself into a soloist and just got mine backings got all my own gear just made it possible that I didn't have to organize rehearsals with people, I could do everything I wanted. So I basically just went, nah, this this is too much for my head anymore. And around that time. You know, my, my first son was gonna say he was about seven. Were thinking about having another one. And I was like, No, this is just too much. And so I just brought it all the way back to me and then gradually added my sister back in, because we could communicate and and do things together. But it's I don't know, you just get to that moment where you just go, This isn't me anymore. Yeah. And I think it's like, you have to give yourself permission to be okay with that. Like, I remember accepting that my music will may not live in the spaces that we are told music should live in. I remember being like, you know what, it's okay, if it doesn't end up on this radio, because I'm not the type of person that listens to the radio like that. Anyway, like, I had to really get so clear on what if I was to be a musician my whole life? If I came at the end of it, what do I want to feel like I have done for myself? And am I proud of where my music has existed? And when am I creating music that actually helps people and makes people feel things? Or am I writing music for a record label? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really came back to like, oh, I need this is I came back to that little like 10 year old girl who wrote music because it was therapy was is what I always came back to. I was like, I want to be able to look back on to her. And be like, I I kept, I kept going with that I using was first and foremost an emotional expression for me. And anyone who gets to enjoy it. It's like, you're welcome. Like, I write, I write for me, I sing for me, I perform for me. And it just happened to be the the moment I found the most authentic expression of myself at the moment where people were like that was that was a really interesting moments like when I I don't know it doesn't happen for everybody. But for me personally, it was like I just had this perfect combination of like, sound like the sound that I was producing people were looking for. Yeah, and I'm so thankful for that. But in the end, even if I didn't have that I can listen to my music and be proud that I did it for myself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The way you're listening to the odd thing. You talked about being pregnant. How wild is your little boy here? He is to in May. So yeah, he's a wild. I was gonna say fun times. My gosh, my child has been In a wild since the moment he was conceived, like home I gosh, I could not prepare myself at all for that journey like it was. It has been the baptism of fire over and over again with my beautiful beautiful son. He's just so wild. Oh man. Yeah, he's Yeah, it's been big. It's been a big, big journey from being sick. My whole pregnancy. He went to 42 weeks. Yeah. Oh, yeah, he was coming out. No, he was very happy. And I was in severe pain, like a my body it was just like, well, we're gonna, we're gonna break now. We're done. And then birth going sideways. In regards to Yeah, it didn't go to plan. And then our postpartum with Fergus was honestly I didn't think between pote like pregnancy and birth, I thought they were going to be the two hardest experience, but it was our postpartum. It was like a first eight months with Fergus was the just the worst time in our lives easily. So definitely, I felt like I had what I suppose people call like ego deaths. I just felt like I died over and over and over becoming a mother. It was just so your identity was changing so much. And yeah, because I barely could sing when I was pregnant. And then after I gave birth, my plan was to go back to work back to being an artist at like three months postpartum. And then I had to have an emergency cesarean for our for birth, after a home tried home birth for 24 hours. And then we gave birth to Fergus and Fergus was a incredibly distressed child, he had so much stress in his body. So we spent the first almost year of his life just supporting him like he would scream and cry for about nine hours a day. It was we couldn't leave the house. He never was able to go into a carrier because he hated any type of pressure on his restriction on his body. We couldn't put him in a pram until he was six months old, seven months old. And still to this day, he doesn't doesn't like being a pram and then he started walking at eight months started crawling at four months. Yeah, he was we we had the hardest time no one could like look after him for the first nine months of his life because he would he just had he had a lot of trauma in his body. He came out holding his neck up screaming bloody murder. Well, he could take a turn his head from birth like he was never a floppy head, baby Cheevers Yeah, he used to he never he hated sit like I have forgotten so much. We've definitely blacked out a lot. But he hated sitting from the moment he was born. He was like 10 days old and he was his legs were straight and they wouldn't he just wouldn't sit. Yeah. He had just so much tension in his body. So we had to do a lot of work with him to help him basically unwind his nervous system and that involved a lot of like, trauma for us parents of listening, being with him as he expressed his emotions and we would sit with him. And he was like we knew he was fed in we we'd gone every Western medicine route to see if there was anything wrong. I say that in inverted commas wrong with him. Yeah. And then we found a way of parenting. Yeah, that was the game changer. We worked with like a birth trauma aware parenting specialist, and she changed our life. It was yeah, it was fantastic. But Ferg was a really, really intense child. And for the first year and he still to this day is massive feelings. So I didn't sing for a year for the first year of Fergus his life I didn't didn't touch my Looper at all. And it was the worst time of my life. Yeah, yeah. Is it's literally your that identity that part of you is just disappeared. Yeah, and I genuinely thought I was never going to sing again. Like I really thought that this was over because, like fit I couldn't sing with Fergus because Fergus just hate like he just couldn't. He wouldn't sit like he couldn't be still. He wasn't just the baby you can put in a bouncer like ever. I couldn't just put him in a carrier when he wouldn't sleep. He was such a light sleeper for the first year and a half of his life. So I couldn't sing like I could never leave the bedroom and sing. So he was honestly he was like 16 months the first time I pulled out my looper. Yeah, right, since before giving birth. But I had honestly thought, hey, and my voice was so wrecked because my body was so exhausted. That I had such limited vocal range, my muscles were just shot to pieces. And I just have such deep set I have so sad. Like, I remember being so sad about it. Like I was just like this has been my life for a decade. And then some I would I had so much anger because I would watch other musicians who were mothers be able to balance both. Like they were able to take their children to their shows their child was able to fall asleep on their body as they practiced, I would watch them record music with their kids in the room. And I had a baby that was so angry. Just such an angry and struggling child that I couldn't we couldn't do anything like our life didn't even look remotely like it had before giving birth and so we really, we really struggled and we were in lockdown. And we had no family man. And that's the thing the thing that you had always gone to to work through stuff with your music that wasn't accessible tea. Nope. So I pretty iced I had, I did suffer from like, postnatal depression. Because I had no I had nothing no, not only because the pregnancy was traumatic, the birth was traumatic and our postpartum was just the worst thing in the world. But also because I just had no outlet like I just had the tools that I would always use to express how I was feeling I didn't have that anymore. And it was just it was such a dark time. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. Which is the it was I would wear out over here being like we're one and done because the idea of going through that again is just yeah, we couldn't we couldn't even fathom it. It's just now that focus is almost two is the first time in years that we've been like oh, hello like to my husband. Hi. I haven't. I haven't seen you for a while. I haven't seen you for a while like he slept on the couch for a whole year. It was just Yeah, it was very hard. So I remember being him being focus being 16 months old and finally dusting like dusting off my looper and being like Oh, hello old friend. Yeah, Joy Joy choice to see these moments to catch up above God it's up to us to give them that's got me I nearly started bawling then. Oh, man. That's tough that hell yeah. How did you get through it? Literally. How did you get through it? It was it was the it was the toughest thing I have honestly ever been through. I don't even know cam has my husband has pretty well blacked out the first four or five months of focus his life. Yeah, really can't remember it. Because we were in straight survival mode. Like we couldn't leave the house like I we couldn't even walk up the street without various catatonic Lee screaming. And we used to sit on a bouncing ball for hours just to her to try and keep him like, that's when we were we didn't understand birth trauma or nervous system issues. And we just It was exhausting. And I, I don't even know how we made it through. We just were like, we just have to. It was like the mantra of survive the day, survive the day survive the day. And it felt like we and it's still to this day. It's a lot easier now. But it honestly felt like we never got a break of like Fergus was then he went from being a really distressed, massive feelings child to suddenly like, crawling so early, and then walking so early. Yeah. And so it was just like, we went from one thing to the next thing. And he was such an angry, frustrated kid because he wanted to do everything on top of like, Oh, I've got so much anger and like so much feelings and you need to and we could never pacify him. Like if we even if we tried. Even if we tried. He was like, No, you will hear me. Yeah, we used to just sit there with him. And we listened. And we listened to him. And it was like, I'm glad I took videos of it because I remember like, it was so intense. And you'd watch his little nervous system unwind. And I remember thinking to myself, I was like, Okay, we're probably only going to do this once because of this, like it's going to get better. And I and that's when I started reaching out on Instagram and I found other mothers who had gone through a very had very similar babies to Fergus Yeah. And because everybody around me all of the friends that I had that had been having babies had were experiencing nothing like we were like it was just and that was made it so hard. Because the we didn't even know a baby like Fergus was possible. Because we never seen anything like him in regards to his intensity and he his stress and his body and he never sat. He was always twitching. And oh my gosh. And so we really it was just, it was survived the day like I cried a lot at nighttime. Like I cried, I cried the first year of his life. That was the only way and we went into therapy. I started going and seeing a therapist because we were doing so much listening to Fergus his feelings that we just had to get that extra support. And we didn't have family support at all. So it was just kind of like we Yeah, it was dark. Oh my gosh, it was so dark. It's just started even though Oh, man. Yeah, it was it was definitely hard. And I remember the first time I met in person, another mother who had a baby like Fergus, and I just cried to just almost a relief like it was just me it was because I only met her in the last like two months because she lives over here. And she her experience, she gave birth to her child three days after Fergus and her child, her birth mirrored our birth and their her baby mirrored Fergus, and they might turned out that Kim and her husband had actually met each other through and aware parenting men's group online. And they so it was like, just meeting someone else who could relate to so many aspects of our parenting experience was just like, incredibly healing. And I didn't know that I needed that healing before until I met her in the flesh. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, there's someone who truly understands. Yeah, yeah. And that's thing like when you said before about, sorry, I've just realized that my camera's frozen up, but I am still here. In that position, look like or it's fun. Yeah, like the people around you that have having babies that are not experiencing what Vegas is experiencing. It'd be so easy for them to place judgment on your parenting as a reason why your baby's struggling and that it would that would be tremendously unhelpful and unkind. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I was pretty I was very lucky that the everyone around me knew that what we were going through was really different to theirs and that we were doing everything I like the everything we did to support Fergus, and then I came off with first we were like, it might it was a tongue tie. So we had his tongue tie snipped, and then we took him to osteo, cranial sacral therapy, physio, Cairo, naturopath, I came off basically all foods other than roast vegetables and chicken for four or five months, I have lunch and dinner. I used to give him a naturopathic tonic to try and help we thought it was might be a stomach. Everything, I changed the way that I was breastfeeding to try and help Oh my gosh, we went we did. We knew we knew that we were doing everything possible, like within, like, anything possible to try to help him. Yeah. Until we got to a point where we were like it, none of that it's his stress, like is so much you would look at his body. And you could tell that his nervous system was so wired. And I felt so much guilt in my body for that because I was like, he became like that when he was in my womb. That was definitely the the story that I told myself for a really long time. So I definitely think that I punished myself for that. And I took on a lot more of the listening to feelings and my husband because I was like, I did this. I have to undo it. Yeah, right. Was there a point where that became, you realized that that wasn't the truth? Um, I think over time, I just was like, even if it was me, what's done is done. Like I couldn't like I couldn't go back and change my pregnancy. Also, I was like, Yeah, I was incredibly stressed. We were, it was a pandemic. There was stuff that was happening within my family on the other side of the country that I could never, I couldn't go and be with them. We were told when we were pregnant, that Forbus was going to have Down syndrome. Like our pregnancy was really stressful. Yeah. And we'd also miscarried before Fergus, and so I was really stressed. Yeah, yeah. So even if, even if, like, there's certainly so many things that I probably could have done differently, but I just got to a point where I was like, I'm doing everything within my ability now to support his nervous system so that it can relax. I can't like I can't keep beating myself up for what the experience was for him because he's thriving now. Like I was. I was like Kim and I sacrificed a lot of ourselves and our relationship in that first year for Fergus to be How he is now. Yep. And I often think to myself, I can't even imagine the type of child that he would be now, if we hadn't supported him so much releasing the tension that he had in his body then. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What does your music look like now your music practice now that Fergus is a little older? Yeah. So he goes to date a family daycare two days a week. And so that's pretty much when I get to do anything outside of mothering. Because he is a full on child, I can't just set my Looper up. And when he's around this, he was just honestly, and it would be you'd set it up so that you could have fun with your child. Yeah. Yeah. So I Tuesdays and Wednesdays are the days that I can actually create music. And that's the days that I do all of my art and all of my work. And that's really it. Like, I sometimes do it in the evenings, after he goes to bed, because our My office is down the other end of the house, but I'm so tired. By the end of the day, he he wakes up between four and 430. Every single, every single morning, and he's ready to go. He's so turbo. Yeah, he's so turbo, that by the end of the day, you are us. You just you just absolutely exhausted. So I really, I just look forward to Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and I'm like, this morning, I was like, okay, I can actually like do all the things that it's hard. And the thing that I have struggled with the most is the fact that I used to spend my entire week. If I had any creative idea, I could write that in there, stick with it, and create and that was just, oh my gosh, it was so hard for me to have to, like lock in key ideas and be like later, later, later, later, because I was that person that was like, I'd have an idea in the morning and it would be recorded in the evening. Yeah, yeah. So that's been something the the amount of creativity that I am able to do is significantly less but because I think I went from so much to nothing. I two days a week feels like absolute heaven. I'm like, take it I'll take it oh my god one hour fantastic. Like cam can take focus out for like for an afternoon on the weekend. And I just get to stay home and do like anything to do with my art and I feel like a different woman. Yes. And so it's been like hard fought to get to this and I'm I think I'm like very grateful. I'm really quick at doing stuff now. Like even quicker than I was before. Because I go okay, you have four hours and you have to get all this done. Go like yes, like I don't I don't go with this work. I trust the idea. Trust the idea. And that's been the so it's definitely gotten me really like onto it. But right now it's two days a week that I have to do everything it's art is Chris's son so what sort of things are inspiring you at the moment with your, with your music? What are you sort of creating about, I guess, I am definitely processing my postpartum period through my music at the moment. I am writing songs that allow me to make sense of the experience that we had. Because we are kind of through that dark tunnel of that first really, almost two years of his life. I'm at a point where I'm like, Okay, I need to process what we what we went through, like I really need to, because my body still shakes when I talk about it. Like yeah, my body goes into like a trauma response when when we talk about that whole experience that we had, and I recognized that for me like therapy was great. But it didn't get everything that I needed out of my system. And so right now I'm the music that I'm recording for myself is definitely postpartum music that I'm hoping one day I can release because I know that there are other mothers that really need music that like validate is the experience that they're having? Absolutely. So that's the myself right now. That's the music I'm writing. But I'm also writing, actually, I'm running choir music. Because I have started a choir. Yes, I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, well, I have been, I think most singers that love the voice fantasize about either singing in a choir or having their own choir. And I was like, I had been thinking about it for years. I was like, three years ago, it's so great to have a choir because I used to lecture. And one of the classes that I lectured in was creative arranging and voice and we do a lot of choir stuff in that. And I was always, like, I'd love to be able to transpose some of the music that I write into acquire setting, to be a hero at like, live and just to be able to have other people get the opportunity to experience singing my, my arrangements, and I was like, Okay, so we're not in lockdown anymore. I'm not in Margaret River anymore. I don't have a newborn baby anymore. Like, I think the time is now. And I was like, um, I'll probably just like, run it from my house, maybe like 10 people, that'd be great. And then I was like, I don't have space to 10 cars. And so then I had a friend that I've met who has a shop in this particular pavilion and your Monday. She was like, why don't you hold it in the pavilion? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that mean that can hold more than 10 people? I don't know. And then I, and then I was like, Okay, maybe I'll just make the first choir session free so that people can come and have an idea about like, what is the type of music that I would create, and we were like, Let's hope for 20. And then I put the signup form, we had 70 people, oh, good for you. And I and my mind was blown, my mind was blown. I was like, oh, people want to sing. And I think the thing that I can recognize is that a lot of choirs around for an older demographic. And also, a lot of the music that they're singing isn't, if you haven't sung before, or if you haven't done in a while, it's can be quite daunting for a lot of people. And so my type of music that I write is, it's pretty repetitive, it's looping. So the parts once they have them, is a very easy for them. And I wanted it to be like focused on your part. And it might not be hard. But I want you to be able to understand how it fits within the context of the whole song, so that you can actually listen to all of the other parts going on. Yeah, and I suppose after being isolated for so long, I was just desperate to create something that allowed me to be with other people in a creative setting. Yeah. So that's kind of we had our first rehearsal on Sunday. And I think there was like 4045 people came, which was just wow, that was just amazing. And damn, they could sing. I was I went into it being like, I went into being like, I don't know, like, we'll see what level they're at. And they picked up parts so fast. I was like, Okay, I now know what type of choir I'm writing for. Yeah, and so it's just like, kind of like a dream, it's the first time that I'll be able to actually make money since becoming a mum. Because I have not really been able to work because of Fergus. And then we moved across the country. And so this is like really a really exciting and fulfilling way to actually make some kind of income for myself, as well, which is just like a added bonus, to be honest. Yes. Yeah. I gotta admit, when I when I saw that your Instagram reel that you created, you're working through that process of, do you think the terms right now and then you can tell us like, Oh, my God, I want to do that. Because it's like, no one does that everyone wants to sing, like, just crap songs, and, you know, versions of pop songs. It's like, getting back to what music is, you know, at its essence. Yeah, I had an experience years and years ago. Because through our, our vocal group, we'd get like, we go to places and learn things. And people come and visit and teach us things. And this guy just broke it all down one day said, he said, we're not going to sing anything, that we're not going to sing things with words, we're not going to, you're not gonna know this song. There's no structure to it. He didn't even give us sheet music. So straightaway, people are freaking out because this is not what we do. He gave us a chord and he just said, Pick a night in this court. And then he'd go over, like we had to hold it for a long time. So it was good way to practice our, you know, control vocal, and listen to the agility X to you. When are they going to breathe, you have to not breathe at the same time, all this sort of stuff that was held, it's good, it's good things there. But then it just go over to one part and it just say, just move your note. And so people are looking at each other like, oh, how do I move my note? What do I do? Where do I put it? I don't know what to do. And he's like, just trust yourself. Just just Just move your note. And so then people would just move their note. And then he'd come up to another group and just say, now you move on. And it was just the most freeing experience. And I still couldn't let as I'm telling you, I can see it in my head, it was so wonderful. I was like, we don't need all these bells and whistles and all this stuff that goes with it. You know, it's just getting back to the essence of it. And it was amazing. And I think the thing that I recognize is that people feel so intimidated by singing, for so intimidated by singing, because, you know, the music that you hear on the radio are either very auto tuned or from trained singers. And so there aren't many spaces that exist for them to have the opportunity to actually sing. And most people can hold a note, like, even those that believe they're tone deaf, it's just the muscle of super underdeveloped, so the more you use it, the better your ear and vocal muscle gets. Yeah. And I was just like, I want people to have the opportunity to sing something that's not a radio song, that where that you're expressing an emotion, because you're part of a whole, like really having that idea that you are a really important piece of this puzzle. And it might not be a hard part. But you actually have the opportunity to develop your ears and understand how your part is, like the context of it. Yeah, where you fit in and where we fit in. You know how important your party is like, yeah, I remember at one point being in was doing an SSA arrangement, and I was first our show, and we were literally a drone. We had a drone, honestly, one of the most important ones. Yeah, God. Yes. And I said that all the time. I say that all the time. I'm like, the Jerome note is literally one of the most important notes in almost every arrangement that I do, because of how all the other notes are affected by that one note. It's like the the level of tension that you can create from a moving parts and how that one note actually influences. Yeah, yeah, I, there was a group on Sunday that for one song, their note was a drone note and I was like, I want you to take this opportunity to feel what this drone note actually is here to make you feel like why is that drone note here? Like if without it? What are the other parts sound like? Yeah, yeah, it's and I, you almost as if you listen to my music, there's almost always a drone note in the songs. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's so important. It is so important. And then, years later, obviously, years and years and years later, my son now plays the bagpipes. And when you hear it, when you hear those drones fire up, they're like, Yeah, I get this, like, they're the heart and soul. Like they're the bits that you know, the hold everything together. And I always hated how people, they played, like these jokes on our toes like this, the joke like the sopranos says to the alto, the melody and they go, Oh, I don't get it. And they're like, Yeah, course you don't get it, like you never get the tune. But it's like, the tune is the most boring part of Yeah, it's always underneath that just drives it. Well, it's like that's the when I think about harmony, it's like, it's really easy for most singers to sing a third above. The third below is the like the harmony that creates like the most important texture, but it's also the hardest for someone's ear to actually be able to hear. So it's like something that I always work on. It's like the you've got your melody and you've got your Harmony above, but that harmony below is what gives like the rich texture of your sound. So low voices are just like, so important to me, because of the impact that they have on a harmony. Because it's like I when I think of harmonies, I think of like, a really important balance. And if you have too many harmonies that sit higher in a register, your your balance is like off put and suddenly, the top harmonies are starting to really ping out rather than it being like a really perfect balance. Yeah, and I mean, the only reason I am so obsessive over those because I've spent so much time listening to harmony, and so much time listening to how harmony impacts me emotionally. And when I go into a song, I'm always like, how do I want people to feel when they hear this and being able to pick notes that I know will elicit those emotions, but that just comes with like, a lot of a lot of time. Yeah, I think a real interest in in being able to express some like something audibly with no words. It's also like it's when, when it doesn't have words, people's minds don't have to think so much. Because what I often find is people who aren't necessarily singers, they get really stressed about having to remember words if you're not using a book. And what I found is with singers that aren't, you know, choir singers, like haven't had that type of training, their head will be so down in their book trying to remember their part that they're actually missing half What's the point of singing with other people? Yeah, that's it, it becomes this insular thing that you're just focusing on yourself. Yeah, yeah. And so that's just why I do it's like, quite simply, it's for them to be up at around each other. Yeah. My God My says, the memory of my legs. When you said before, about listening to each other, I feel like that is the most underrated part of part seeing people get so focused on themselves, like, and you said about heads in books. But I could, I could literally for years seeing other people's parts, because you spent so much time working out where you fit in, and perhaps why you fit in to this where you see as part of his whole group, it's so important, and I think it teaches you so much about, like life skills, you know, listening to each other. When When do you need to back off? When is it, you know, time for you to come forward? And you're blending and listening to those around you like that? When I said before about when you take your breath like, well, we're not good at listening as a society. Yeah, absolutely. It's when like, it's really easy to see that we're not very good at listening to others, because we're always thinking about the thing that we're going to say next. And so it's like, singing in a group l gives you the opportunity to, and it kind of forces you to have to listen to others. And it's like, it's why I make it's why I do things really specifically of not having like books to read from and making parts simple and repetitive. Because I want to give people the opportunity to work on their listening skills. Because then they just have that like ability to be like, Oh, I could switch parts I could. Like I can hear their part. If someone next to me is struggling to hear their part. I can help them find their part. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it definitely definitely oh my gosh, I remember singing in choirs, and your head would be down. And you'd just be following the words. And I just be following the music writing on the page. And I wouldn't be caring if I was singing too loud. Like that's the other thing is like, yeah, everyone wants to be the soloist. Yeah, that's like you go okay, but you're part of a hole. Which means if you can't hear the Alto or you can't hear the sopranos, then you're already singing too loud. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it teaches you so much doesn't Yeah, I think it's such a beautiful opportunity. Like, I love the spaces that choirs can, like the right type of wires can create. Put that caveat in there? That's so exciting. I'm so pleased you're doing that. I think it's a wonderful expansion of your, you know, sharing your, say your wave of music, but it's like, yeah, it can't you know what I mean? It kind of like no, I do. It's like my, the way that I write like I'm giving it. And the thing that I was told over and over on Sunday was it's like, people were really looking forward to having an opportunity to sing the type of music that I write. Yes. And I was like, oh, yeah, well, that's that that meant so much to me, because it's like, as we've said, I've spent so long worrying that the type of music that I wrote wasn't didn't fit anywhere. And then to have people be like, Oh, I've seen these parts at home, or I listened. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, absolutely. I sing. I sing these harmonies by myself in the shower. I'm like, You kidding me? Like, I yeah, it's just been such a beautiful validation of what I have chosen to be as an artist. Yes, absolutely. And I would love to be able to, like, I would want to create a choir in Sunshine Coast, but I want to take like a live loops workshop and be able to take what I do to a day long workshop somewhere in other places that because other people would love the opportunity to sing these types of arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, it is really it's a really exciting project. And I'm just like, feel so fulfilled, but it feels really like in alignment with what I do. Yeah. And I think that's what I've been trying to find is like, I don't want to teach people singing how to sing well, like I don't have no interest in teaching technique. I'm like, there are so many singing teachers out there. Like I want to create spaces where people get to experience harmony, because harmony has had such a profound impact on me. And my ability to cope with life. Yeah. Oh, that's why I'm so pleased for you. Honestly, it's just sounds crisp, I can be my heart swell. You know, it's just wonderful. I really I'm really, really pleased for you. And I'm very jealous that I'm not there. I'm I just have to come down the coast. Do you come down a long way? Right to the bottom of the mainland. Sorry, just on that if there's payment listening that are in your neck of the woods So what's the best way for them to get in touch if they're interested in in a bit more, we will be social media. So my instagram handle is the dot Edwina dot Masson, Ma, Double S O n. That's where pretty much everything that I do everything that I offer, all the links to all of my work is that's kind of where I play at the moment. So that would be that that would be the spot and just message me or email me any, like, beautiful girl up? I'm pretty, I'm pretty easy to contact. That's awesome. Yep. So we're just about to start term one. So it's going to run in terms, and at the end of each term, we're going to have like a little concert. And so that's kind of where my focus is at creatively focuses. Yeah, one thing at a time choir, establish the choir. Yeah. And on that, I think it is important for people to have a goal to be to perform, because I've been at times in a group where you don't have any, you're just singing, it's like, that's lovely. We love it. But to be able to then actually put yourself up there is like a whole new kettle of fish, you know, for people to get to witness the work that they've put in, you know, I mean, I'm just like, I really believe. Yeah, and because then it gives other people permission to do the same thing. It's like, this isn't a bunch of people that have grown up to having singing, training or singing in choirs, but then when you see them sing together as a group, and they can see how they've improved from the start of the term to the end of the term. Because it's important for me to be able to teach them technique and teach them how to braid properly and teach them how to warm their voice up. It's, they would be remiss of me to like, just get them singing and not care about their vocal health. Yeah. I even heard people saying at choir, they could hear the difference in their voice from the start of that two hours to the end of the two hours, because of the muscle, like because of them actually using that muscle. Yeah. And it's like, I want to give people the opportunity one to hear the work that these people have been putting in, but to then maybe even try it themselves. Absolutely. And see that it's actually it's not this way out scary thing that's only accessible to people who've been, you know, tracing. elite group of people. Yeah, that's how it definitely can feel. Yes, yeah. And so and then when you give people the opportunity to actually sing with other people, you realize that most people can sing everybody has a voice, like, Yeah, everybody has a voice. Yeah, there's people that tell me they can't see I'm like, you just don't know how to use your instrument. Literally. That's me, you know, every muscle a thing in your body that we all have, you know, it's just like some people are born with the ability to run faster than others before they've ever been trained. And then they choose because they have, they're better at that party, that muscle is more developed, then they might choose to become a runner. Some people's vocal cords, or their ears are born more developed with more of an aptitude for music. But it just because the starting point is different doesn't mean you don't have the ability to work to be as good or whatever, it's just a muscle a muscle that can be stressing it literally and you learn that that's really obvious when when you've been a singer for a while, and you get some training and you go Holy shit, I can do this as well. I didn't know that, you know? Yeah, it's like I don't sound like I sound like I did when I was 15 You know what I mean? Like I had a good voice when I was 15. But I sound nothing like I did then because I've had training so I've just worked on the muscle and the more you do it, the more flexibility the muscle has and the more agility it has. And yeah, so I definitely believe in like just give it a shot and I want to create spaces that give the people the the opportunity to safely do that. Yeah, no, I'm good on Yeah, that's it's so inspiring. I'm really pleased for you and I'm gonna follow the journey along on your Instagram I'm really really pleased for you that's wonderful too chatting with you it's been lovely. I feel energized and light and bubbly. Now I feel like I need to go record something for how Yeah, that's what I'm gonna be doing I would be like, like, peace out. I'll get my recording studio open. Yeah, thank you so much for having me these I always value having a space opera like opportunity to share my journey and to share my story with others because I I know that my experience and what I do can hopefully make other people feel less alone. And and so I I am very thankful to to you for having a space or Thank you. Thank you and I'm frozen still, but I'm sorry. No. I know I like you face has been frozen in some great position. It's hilarious, isn't it? Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or subscribing to the pod Fast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom ee the day Hi mean I know lives for was I must was five okay I will see you God

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Lyss Morton US event florist, podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep72 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Lyss Morton is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey USA and a mum of 2. 2 years ago Lyss and her husband began a floral design business, doing weddings and events, and floral preservation. Lyss credits her love for flowers to her grandmother. Lyss describes herself as multi passionate, and a serial entrepreneur. She produces 2 podcasts, The Making Mommy Moves podcast and The Power Couple podcast, has a digital production company called Mama Media and another florist related business. Lyss is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting, people pleasing, our old favourite mum guilt and cultural role modelling. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and birth trauma** Connect with Lyss - website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Liz Morton. Liz is an event florist and entrepreneur from New Jersey in the USA and a mom of two. Two years ago Listen, her husband began a floral design business doing weddings and events and floral preservation. Liz credits her love of flowers to her grandmother. She describes herself as multi passionate and a serial entrepreneur. This produces two podcasts, the making mommy moves podcast, and the power couple podcast with her husband. She has a digital production company called mama media, and another floral related business. Lisa is also writing her first book and has plans for more. Today we chat about boundary setting people pleasing our perennial favorite mom guilt, and cultural role modeling. This episode contains discussions around postnatal depression, and birth trauma. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which is listed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM J, which is my new age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome to the podcast. Listen, that's really lovely to have you and to meet you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I appreciate you having me on your show. Oh, no worries at all. Now, we're about to you based. I'm in New Jersey, over across the big pond. Yeah. Yeah. Whereabouts is that in America? We're on the east coast. So right around your Pennsylvania. tri state area. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I can visualize where that is. It's good. Yeah. And you're coming into what you call it fall over there. Do we call it autumn here? Yeah, it hit us in the face a couple of weeks ago. We have a garden that we grow in all the time. And we're like right on the cusp of everything dying. Yeah, that changes seasons. Always fun. Where where are the other side? We're coming into summer like we're in spring and everything starting to grow like crazy. And all the weeds are coming up because it's raining and feet of warmth. And yeah, I feel like I'm just forever picking waves out of a garden now. A good time of year though. Ah, do you see love say Oh, my roses have come out now. So it's it's good. Like, like this time of year? You do lots of different things, don't you but your use? Did you say am I right in saying you started out as a florist? Is that right? Yeah. Um, well, I'll give you a little bit of a backstory. I wasn't always a florist. I started as a medical biller in a chiropractic office for about 10 years of my life. And I was like, I hate this. So I started working with flowers. And I became an event florist and now we serve events all throughout New Jersey and the surrounding area, bringing weddings to life primarily for couples. And how long have you been doing that for about two years? Yes. So no, I'm, but we went. We grew really quickly in that time. Yeah. So do you do you source your flowers or do you grow a lot yourself? Or do both? Yeah, we started primarily growing our own flowers. And then it was time management wise. We couldn't with everything that we were doing for the events and planning and meeting send everything, we didn't have the time to commit to growing everything ourselves. So we like to say that we work some of our garden and grown blooms into their designs. But we actually are sourcing and then like in her bridal bouquet will incorporate some of our envelopes. Awesome. That'd be really fun. One of my favorites. My wedding was was picking out my flowers. I really enjoyed that part of it. And I reckon I spent, like, percentage wise, I spent a pretty high percent on my flowers because like, I just love them. I just wanted them to be like, really big. Yes. Oh, so what's, what are the flowers at the moment over there that a lot? Or do you buy them like from people that grow them all year round, like the stuff that's particularly in season at the moment. Right now we're finishing out the season locally, there are a couple of growers that have some greenhouses that were able to get stuff. But right now, like we're getting the end of the dahlia is for santha mums. And then like anything that is grown in the greenhouse is amazing. But we primarily sourced from other wholesalers that import flowers from, you know, the Ecuador and South America and other places like that some California stuff. So primarily, we're integrating the local flowers in with the overseas stuff. Yeah, cool. Oh, that's awesome. What made you go into flowers, we've been we've always been a gardener or just thought it would be fun to do for if I give a lot of the credit to my grandma, because she had the most amazing garden and she still does, it's, it takes up her entire backyard. And it's like on a nice beautiful creek. So it just looks like it's meant to be there. So I I blame her for my flower bug that I have. Um, but I really like I can't say that like, they were my go to thing. I loved getting flowers. And then when I wanted to create my own business, I was like, what brings me joy. And I love flowers. There was like, let's start that. And I just took every workshop and every course that I could find on the topic and dug in. Yeah. Well, that's great. Good news. And you say wait, I'm guessing that's your your husband and you work together? Yes. Yeah, we're we're good partnership. Okay, ego right together, you don't have to renew legally disagree with anything awesome. You also do podcasting, and lots of other different things. So can you share with us? What else do you do that keeps you busy? Yeah, I'm thinking to say that I'm multi passionate, I've got a lot of different things that I have going on. So I'm in the process of writing my first book, I've got a podcast, it's called the making mommy moves show. I've got our floral design business where we do events. And then we also preserve flowers for our couples and anywhere in the US or that they're able to ship them. We had one come from Mexico, where we encase their flowers and resin or press designs. We've got another business where it's very, very niche specific, we help other event floors, clean up their events. At the end of the wedding, we help them collect all the rental items and any other decor that they have. And then something more recently that I started was it's called mama media. It's a digital like production company where we do like podcast editing and YouTube Editing and stuff like that. Hmm. There's a lot of different things going on. And yeah, multi passionate, that's a great way of describing it. So you just really like, like, like doing things you like being busy and being creative. Like, that's, that's what drives you. Yes, very much. Yeah. Yeah. People think it's a little crazy. But you know, when you have a knack for something, and you just I'm, I say that I'm a quickstart personality. So it's like I get an idea. And I have to jump on it. My husband and I were actually just talking about that this morning, because it's actually a little overwhelming at times, trying to manage it all, especially being a mom and everything else that we have going on his family. So we're trying to be more intentional about the things that we take on and limit the project so that we're able to actually follow through on them too. Huh, yeah, cuz that overwhelm is a big thing, isn't it? And then you get all the different things thrown at you family wise and children wise things are always jumping up and surprising. It's out of the blue. Exactly. Tell me more about your book, what is the Book about? So I'm reading my book about different business processes as a wedding florist. I'm working with Jake Calper. Like he's doing a fun, like challenge. So every day for 90 days, we're working on a book together. And it's just an hour a day that I'm dedicating to the process. And it's been really enlightening, because he just wants you to just do it and get it done. So I'm following his framework in order to do it. Because you know, as moms and business owners, we have very little time, or at least it feels that way. So I'm just trying to break it down into smaller pieces. And it's nonfiction obviously. And I'm just trying to get the parts one done and out and make it mean something and also be helpful to other business owners and mompreneurs. And then I'm gonna move on to my next one. Yeah. So if you got, you've got your idea for you to explore, I've already got a couple of them. And it was like difficult for me to choose one. So this one is about business ownership. And then I have one that I want to like write about with my mom and like our relationship together. I've got a couple different ideas like it works. Well, that's great. So you say you, you can eat just an hour a day? Do you ever find that you just cannot get the hour in? Or is that something that you make sure you definitely do every day no matter what. I give myself some grace. So especially as a wedding florist, like we're just getting out of our peak wedding season, there were some weeks that we had four weddings in the weekend that we're trying to get out the door and servants. Obviously, they're our priority next to my kids. So it's like we're trying to make sure that they're taken care of that our contracts are fulfilled. And that's taken care of. So I am giving myself some grace if for some reason I am too busy dividend. What about your podcast? Tell us a little bit more about that. Yes, so it's called the making mommy move show. And it's primarily a come along with me, because we don't have it all figured out. But we want to be able to document the journey as we create our we have a lot of big goals that we're working towards. So one of them is financial freedom. Another is like fitness and health and just general wellness and happiness. So we want to be able to be an inspiration for other moms to live the life they want to live. Because I know too many of the ones that I grew up around, just sacrifice their life, to work the nine to five and for their kids. And it's like you can have it too. Like you can have your cake and eat it too in the sense that you can live the life that you want. So we created it as a come along with me. I share different stories and strategies and tips and just milestones in our life as we're learning different things through business ownership. But as a mom, I just want it to be really inspiring and helpful. And all the things. Yes. How long have you been doing that for now works? So not a long time. Yeah. And it's great. It all really heavy. I started off with a three time a week podcast schedule, and we're just now dropping down to once a week because it's a lot of demand. Yeah, as you know. Yes. Do you and you record like you visually record you a lot of things as well for Instagram I've seen. So that's another sort of element to it as well. Yeah, we set up the camera and the microphone, and I put it on YouTube, the different podcast platforms and then we use it for Instagram and Tiktok and things like that. I'm trying to make sure that it's more curated for the different platforms. I just today I recorded a whole bunch of videos for YouTube in particular so that it's because you know every platform is specific to their own. I want to say like audience and the way that that people interpret the information. So yeah, I'm trying to be more intentional about that too. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like the way people consume things on different platforms. You is very different. I actually thought it was quite funny. A comedian made a made a reel about people coming in for like a it was like an audition. And they were saying they were presenting the way they talk and they're like, right you go to YouTube and the next one coming up are your for Tik Tok. Like, it was quite funny the way it happened, but they are very different, aren't they? Yeah, like, I've been watching a lot of different content creators obviously. And like seeing the way that they put things out into the world. And it's like, third priority. So some people prioritize YouTube and some people prioritize their blogs or Tik Tok or Instagram. And I'm feeling like YouTube is actually like a good place for me. So it's like helping me to be more intentional about where I put my time and like my focus. So it's like, YouTube is growing the quickest. So it's like, oh, I need to put more of my effort there. As opposed to Instagram that's really slow. So it's like really interesting to think about that too, yeah. So you've mentioned your kids a couple of times being a mom, can you share a little bit about your children? Yeah, I've got two little girls. My oldest is two and a half. And my youngest is going to be one next week or the week after the seventh. So it's been fine with them. I had my second when I just started my business, we had a wedding do a contract. It was supposed to be two days after my due date. And I ended up like wheeling the heck out of that girl coming sooner to keep 13 days early. And tell because it's like you booked a wedding two days after your due date. And it's like, I had faith that God was gonna let me fulfill the event. He wouldn't let me book it if I couldn't do it. Oh, did say you had a 13 days early. So that means you were up and about doing this waiting? Oh, my gosh, how did that go? It worked perfectly. It was fairly small. So I had like backup plans in place, like just in case I was in the hospital or something. But it worked out? Well. I'm glad that it wasn't any bigger than it was because you know, postpartum is difficult. And fulfilling. And event after that was not not exactly fun. But it wasn't bad either. Working up to that point was difficult. I worked until 39 weeks like doing weddings and freelancing with other florists and there was one venue in particular that I was going into and big ol belly in front of me. And the chairs were like this close together. And I can't squeeze through them. It was respond. Did so it was always Daisy having fun. Doing it. Yeah. Trying to carry stuff and they don't want you to carry anything because you're nine months pregnant. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ah, hey, good. But obviously, you've got your support. If your husband in the business site, you're able to sort of be be flexible with things like that. He's such a tremendous help but everything. Lately I've been trying to teach him designing so he's able to actually jump in if I need him helping processing all over flowers to get them prepped to design. helping deliver. Yeah, they help in every way. And like not just that but also like with the kids being able to watch them when I have to go out or having some other family or friends or babysitters helped. Hmm, yeah, that's definitely the supports a massive thing, isn't it? Having people around you? Yeah, makes it really tricky. If you don't have that doesn't that I've spoken to quite a few people on the show that are just like away from their family for whatever reason, and you sort of got to create create your family then I suppose for one of a better word to find the people. Yeah. So yeah, I'm really fortunate. I still live in the town that I was born in and my sister lives around the corner. My mum lives up the road and it's like, I've got him here. If I need him. It's really, really lucky. You need it, you really can't do it without the support system. That's for sure. In terms of then sort of the juggling that goes on, how do you sort of manage? Like your children are still quite young? How do you sort of? Is it a lot of help from others to make it happen? Or how do you sort of juggle everything? Question. So during the week, they're in daycare, I can't live without daycare, it's like, every day, like, Thank goodness for it. And then a lot of late nights. So we try to prioritize and maximize or our family time that we do have. So from five to eight, we have our family time we do dinner, we do baps some quality, like book times, stuff like that, and then we put them down for bed. And then it's usually like eight to 11 is crunch time for whatever we need to make happen. So whether that's designing for an event, or working on a computer, or meetings, stuff like that. Yeah, cuz that's thing you've actually got to meet with your clients, I suppose. Do you do a lot of that? It does that work in the day or you do meet people have an evening as well. Usually, it's in the evening, because most of the people work that we're working with. So they don't typically get out of work or have the time to that they're both home until seven, you know, somewhere in there. So I'll you do accommodate the late night meetings. I prefer when they happen during the day and the girls are at school. But yeah, I'll make it happen for them. Yeah. Oh, that's good. So I want to go back to when when you first had had your first daughter, did you sort of find did you have sort of an identity shift of how you saw yourself, and how that sort of changed when you became a mom, I had a really bad postpartum depression with my first. And I actually want to call it like a disassociation, because I was not attached to her. Going through my first, like, postpartum experience, I had a really traumatic delivery with her. And after I got really fit, like in the gym, like I prioritize that, and I really went through a time that I wasn't connected to her. So I have a different experience with her than I do with my second one. So it's like hard to say like in that sense, but throughout, I want to say like the first six months of our life together, I became more attached to her. And obviously, we have a really close relationship now. But as a mom, it was interesting, because I felt unattached, like, I still felt like myself. So I can't really say I felt like I had gone through this metamorphosis of like, shifts and personality change. But with my second and getting pregnant with my second, I really felt it. Hmm. So the way that you sort of, I guess, I had postnatal depression with both my kids. So I can definitely relate to what you're saying. And I guess that's the thing, it does make it hard to sort of talk about that identity. Because you feel so different anyway, like, because you're experiencing these mental health issues. And I guess, maybe going to your second daughter, how did you sort of when you had your second daughter, did you experience the same sort of postnatal depression or was everything different that time it was really different the second time, and I kind of associated more with starting my business like I felt the build. So it was a different kind of feeling like with my first I was still working as a full time mom and working full time. So I didn't feel like I had the same flexibility I didn't work my second I was able to snuggle up with her. And I was working on my computer and breastfeeding her at the same time. So I was still able to have like that skin to skin contact and everything up until she went to daycare when she was like five months old. Whereas with my first like immediately from the get go, she was in daycare with my mom with anybody that could watch her I was working full time. So I guess I didn't have the same kind of connecting experience with her. And also that affected our relationship and the way that my mental health was and everything else. Yeah, it's interesting, like, oh, yeah, no, thank you for sharing that because it's interesting. I've spoken to some mums who had postnatal depression first or second, or both, or like it's just there doesn't seem to be any consistency to it. Like when I had mine quite bad with my fist. So then the doctors were like, sort of put like, a red flag to me, but they had on all my files, you know, watch out for this one sort of thing, you know, which was good because when it did happen, you know, the ball moves really quickly and all the care that I needed came really quickly. But then yeah, I've spoken to some people who had it with their first didn't have on their second or didn't have with their first head it was like they doesn't seem to be any, you know, rhyme or reason like it. And I sort of had talked to my I talked myself into the fact like, there's seven years between my kids. And I thought, you know, I'm seven years older, I'm more mature, I've worked in childcare. Now I know, physically how to look after a child. And I kept thinking, I'm gonna be fine. This isn't gonna happen, you know, but then actually happened worse the second time and the first time. So it's like, so bizarre. It really is. And it's like, I went through so many mental changes, just evolving as a person and a business owner and everything that I associated with that, but maybe it could just be a different experience, just hormonal wise, like you're saying, like seven years older, and it's hard to say exactly why it happens the way that it does. Oh, my gosh, it is It is bizarre. Like it's just odd. And I wish it didn't happen to any of us. But it's just one of those weird things. And I feel like I've never quite been the same sense. I don't know. Now that I'm getting older, my hormones are changing more. I don't know. I mean, I still feel like me, but I just feel like I haven't quite gotten back to how it was before. I don't know. It's really weird, but never go back, either. Like, you've got so many new experiences now, like having been through childbirth twice, and the postpartum experience twice and everything in between. You'll never go back. Which I guess is a good thing. Yeah. It's a strange thing isn't that happens to us? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was named. One of the big topics I like to talk about with my moms is this concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because I have spoken to moms who didn't even know what it was and had to google it. And I reckon that's awesome. That's how we should all be. But unfortunately, most of us, what's your sort of take on that whole topic? Oh, I feel guilty about everything that I do. I'm guilty. If I'm not being productive, I'm guilty. If I'm not spending enough time with them. I'm guilty. If I am not sleeping enough, I'm guilty. If I'm not eating right, I'm guilty of I'm prioritizing the wrong things. I'm just a big ball of guilt in every way, shape and form. So I'm curious to hear like what you have to say about it, and how you try to overcome it. Like with me, I just remind myself of what I'm working toward, and get myself grace as best as I can. Hmm. Yeah, I think that acceptance is a really big thing. And that's what I'm finding. It's interesting, the people that I've spoken to one in particular comes to mind that that did not even know what it was, which was brilliant. I think it was something to do with, she was basically in this little bubble, where she hadn't been around a lot of people with children, and wasn't sort of all over social media, looking at all things to do with children. And I think a lot of it comes what will in certainly in my experience of people I've spoken to, I'm not saying this is right for everybody, but the expectations that we feel from the outside world to behave a certain way or to do a certain thing or to not do a certain thing. And then that pressure that comes on us, is what sort of manifests neck yoke, because I don't know, there's just so many outside, outside forces with all this conflicting information, like I actually saw a really funny reel the other day about was like a new mom. And she was saying, I can't even think what they were. But it was things like don't hold your baby too much. But make sure you have a lot of skin to skin contact. But don't feed them too much. But make sure that they get enough food, like it was just this constant back and forth and the mums like what am I supposed to do? And I think you're right, that that sort of giving yourself grace and acceptance and in the moment feeling like I'm doing all that I can right now. And then try not to beat yourself up about later, which is so easier said than done, but it's just a horrible thing. And I wish it didn't exist. I wish no one had to go through it, too. I think you're right about the Instagram and like the social media aspect of it too. Because we have this new way to compare ourselves to like what other people look like they're doing as opposed to what we should be doing or comparing what they're what they have done. going on with their kids, because we don't know, we only see the highlight reel on Instagram. So it's like somebody else might look like they're in the gym all the time and spending time with their kids and having the best of everything. They probably have a nanny or somebody living in the house that's able to take care of the kids. Like you're not seeing it all. Yeah, that's so the best. You have to just give yourself grace, knowing what you're living through and your situation and the way that you're dealing with things when it's like you can do that season. We can just do that and not, and the judgment that I was talking to a mom the other day, about that mums and women were really, only if we're really good at what we're really bad at. I can't work out the way to say it, but we judge each other a lot. Like we're like the number one worst judges of each other. We need to know if we could just stop there. Yeah. But I think a lot of that also might come from guilt too, is that, you know, if you see someone doing something and you think, Oh, bloody hell, and then you think, wow, I should be doing that. You know, it's all that that internalized stuff. Again, you are you're judging them because you're not doing it or whatever it is. I'm really bad at that. I'll see something that looks like I should be doing it. And I get bad that they're doing and I'm not, or feeling like I should be further along in my journey. And it's like I just started so I can't get mad at it. Yeah, yeah. But I think you're right about this, this Instagram and the socials. It's like, people will only show you what they want you to say they're not going to show you all the bad stuff that's happened that day, or the how hard it was to get your kid to eat breakfast and then get them in the car to go wherever it like. Yes. But I feel like they're having. Yeah, yeah. It's, but yeah, I feel like people are getting better at sharing things. And I'm trying to change the people that I follow. So that the people that resonate with me more, not the people that I feel challenged by I suppose, if that makes sense. Yeah, surrounding yourself with positive, the positive stuff. I've been getting better at that, too. I've been restricting a lot of accounts that so I'm not like unfriending them or unfollowing them, but I'm not seeing their stuff purposefully. Cuz it either makes me mad or makes me feel guilty or something negative that I shouldn't be feeling. And it's just preventing me from working the way that I should be. Hmm, that's a really good point. And actually, that that point has come up, I reckon in the last two or three podcast chats that I've had that about just, you know, surrounding yourself with the people that make you feel good. Like, yeah, like, like, you know, in real life we do. So why not do it? You know, in a socialist, yeah, it's funny, because I find that even, I have to restrict, like, some friends and family because like, I'll see them and like, hold myself to like a new level of criticism, or guilts. Or, however I'm interpreting it, and then like, I can't be looking at this all the time, just because it makes me feel like I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, or it's bad or something. Yeah, those things that trigger Yeah, it's like, you know, remove them. And that's true, even if it is family, you know, or friends, it's, we're still allowed to sort of set the boundaries and say, you know, I don't need to consume this, because it's going to affect me in a certain way. I think that's really powerful. Because I feel like in the past, we sort of have felt like, because their family, we've got to accept just everything that they do to us their behaviors. I feel like people are starting to sort of go, oh, actually, that's not okay. Even though, you know, you're my sister, or you're my mom or whatever. That That doesn't work. For me. That's a pretty powerful thing, isn't it? Very, very powerful. And to have the emotional intelligence to say, You know what, this is a little toxic or a little triggering for me. So I'm just going to remove myself from the situation and go from there. Yeah, that's really good. I think. Yeah. I don't know. Certainly the people I'm following. It's like, you know, that that emotional intelligence that and feeling like you have permission to do things? Like I don't know, you've always sort of feel like, is it okay for me to say to such and such that I don't want to do that, you know, that. That people pleasing sort of got to say yes to everything. I feel like yeah, people that I follow. I do follow a lot of psychologists to actually that's where this is going rather, you know, you are allowed to say that you don't have to please everybody. Thank you say that with like, yes to everything because I'm really bad people pleaser, at least I'm getting better at it. And for the holidays all the time, everybody would want us over their house. So We'd be trying to go to four or five different houses in the course of Christmas. And it's like that's not enjoyable like to just go from house to house. Yeah. So it's like, either had them on different days, or like, Come to us, because now we have kids, and then she's difficult to go from, you know, breakfast to late breakfast to brunch, to lunch to dinner, an early dinner, late dinners next. Bedtime is somewhere in the middle. Yeah, that's the thing. And you like the age of your girl. So probably still napping is like, how do you even, you know, fit that in? Yeah, but that's the thing too, I think. Yeah, for years are a family like, I'm lucky because everyone's in the town. And we all just gather at one point. But yeah, I've heard lots of stories of people of these, because we've got lots of little towns all around our big town, like little sort of out in the countryside. And people would be going from here to there to their to their similar to your story. Now, just think, God, that wouldn't be a very nice day, you know, it wouldn't be a very enjoyable day. And they'd say things like, you know, the kids get their presents, but then they can't play with them, because they've got to rush off to the next place. And you think it sort of takes all of that? What it's supposed to be about it takes all of that away. And you're right, why can't do it on another day, like, you know, make it a boxing? Or do you have Boxing Day over there to call it that? You know, yeah, we have like the day after Christmas is like a relaxing day, you're supposed to we, most times there's a cricket match on. It's like this tradition, the Boxing Day test match. So everyone like, relaxes in front of the telly and watches the cricket and has a drink because it's summer here. So it's all very, you know, laid back. So that's thing why not doing on the next day, like, you know, why does that have to be this pressure just for this one? Day? Yeah, that's like the thing, like, both my husband and I, like both of our parents were divorced. So it's like, we were having like, four just with them. And then it was the extended family and, you know, siblings wanting to get together in the morning to open gifts and then do dinner later. It's like, we're seeing you already, like agree don't need to do it twice. You know? Yeah. So if anyone's listening to this, if this is triggering for you, this might really to say actually, no, I want to do it this way. Or, you know, have a chat here from this time to that time, and you're welcome to stop by. Yeah, that's a great way of saying it. Yeah. And it's not, it's not like you're saying, we don't want to see you like it's not a bad. You know, it's like just to shuffle things to make it work. And I mean, other people probably feeling the same way too, you know? So by starting the conversation, you might be taking the pressure off someone else to go Oh, thank God, I've been wanting to say this, you know? Yes, 100%. That's really cool. I love it that conversation with. Growing up as a kid, did you, I mean, a lot of the moms I speak to were of the same sort of age roughly. I have had a couple of grandmas on. And that's been really interesting, too. But the way that the way that we were parented has changed a lot. I feel like I mean, culturally in Australia, certainly. And I'm sort of guessing similarly, in the US. What sort of role modeling did you have for being a mum, and the way that you've decided to parent your children? Interesting? Um, I? Oh, tough question. My mom worked all the time. So I can't really say that she was like, super involved. Like when she was really like, when we were young, I guess she was a stay at home mom for a while. But when my parents and I were in a rough relationship, so she worked pretty much around the clock. And we were with my grandparents most of the time. So essentially, my grandmother raised me. I guess, as far as like parenting styles, I have a lot of the same kind of styles that they do. Some things have evolved. Like, we don't force them to eat everything on their plate, like I was forced to, because I'm like, she's a toddler and she's not hungry. She'll eat when she's hungry. So she snaps and that's the way that she eats and the pediatrician have told us the same thing like to just let her you know, she's gonna go through phases. My mom was a big fast food mom, like I don't do that. Stuff like that. Yeah, I feel like we're sort of listening to our children a bit more like, like that example of, you know, the parents saying you have to eat this. And it's like, I remember as a kid, just shoveling the ends of my tea into my mouth and just feeling like seek just so full of food. It's like, we've sort of got to the point where we Going well, actually, I think children are capable of deciding when they're full, you know, obviously you want them to try and, you know, eat more than one bead of toast or whatever, you know, you want them to, to try encourage them. But, you know, I think this that sort of, for me, at least, I don't know if it did, or it didn't, but might have been something to do with the relationship that I now have with food, that I've got to eat everything, you know, we don't know what Yes, what little seeds are being planted in little people's brains when we're doing these behaviors, and we're putting our, our judgment now behaviors onto them. 100% I'm on a similar note, like, trying to, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly like a well rounded eater, she ate a lot of SP foods, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're gonna want to eat them, too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna want to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Hmm. And that's, that's really good point. Because that's thing if they don't see things they're not, they're not even, you know, gonna, they're not gonna choose one day go, Oh, I'm just gonna eat some broccoli just for no reason. You know, it's, it's got to be a part of. Yeah, exactly. And you were talking earlier about, like, you know, eating well, and fitness. Is that something that you're you guys are conscious of. So that's really great that you're sort of encouraging that right from, you know, the beginning of their lives. Yeah, really trying. With the business and everything. It's honestly taken a bit of a back burn. But we've been recommitting ourselves. And it's really important to show them that this is a priority for us if it is for them to. Absolutely, yeah, that's so that's so important. And I think like, exercise just being a part of life, like you can just go for a walk anytime. And that's, you know, that it's not some big deal that can I just, it's just a normal part of life, that it just is what you do, you know, maybe not every day, depending how your day is going. But it's just there all the time. That makes sense. Yeah, that you don't have to make it a special. Like, you don't have to get up and go to the gym at 530 Every morning, like you could squeeze it in with a bike ride or make it fun, and a family activity or different ways to go. Do you feel like it's important to you, and I'm gonna say this in air quotes again, to be more than just a mum, because we're never just a mum, that Yeah, is that that's important to you to maintain who you are outside of your mothering role. Very important. Um, I never want to be just anybody. I want to be myself. And I, you know that I'm really ambitious. So I've got a lot of goals. So I can't imagine like just being a mom, I have to be me and fulfilling and successful. And I just have a lot of these deep rooted things that I need to fulfill myself. Where do you think that drive comes from? Is that was there anyone in your life that sort of role model that or is that just, that's just you. It's just me, it's many of you ask, like my mom or my grandma, they'll tell you that I have this number one syndrome that I have to be number one in everything. And it's funny because as a kid, it was true, I needed to be first in line, I needed to be the top of the attendance roster, I needed to be like, number one on the honor roll like all of those things. And I guess it still rings true, but in different ways like it's fueling to want to be and accomplish all of these things. So it's like I have a bucket list of stuff that I want to do before I die and set a good example for my kids and be this person. Hmm. Yeah. Can you share some of the other things that are on your bucket list? If that's appropriate? I haven't asked you this before. You Yeah, sure. Well, writing a book is obviously on the top of the list. I have places that I want to travel. I want to have some speaking opportunities, like I want to get on a TEDx stage or something fun like that, um, surround myself but some people that I consider like, I don't know if you have like bucket list people that you want to like have conversations with Yeah, couple things. Yeah, people that I keep annoying with emails to come on my podcast. And I never hear back from you, we'll keep trying. And like, that's the thing like this has got this experience, doing this sort of stuff has got me really good at just being rejected and not worrying about any more like to just go, no, oh, that's fine. Who's next on my list? You know, and not getting hung up about stuff. It's been a really good teaching experience for me to learn this stuff, you know? Well, it's like it boils down to, it's always going to be no, if you don't ask, yes, yes. Or no, like somebody might have an opening in the calendar, or they might actually be available that weekend. They, you know, whatever the situation is, like, the reason that they're saying no, probably has nothing to do with you. You know, it's probably that they have their kids baseball game that they actually are able to attend this weekend. So they want to go. And that's, I feel like that if you don't ask you don't know. And that, yeah, I've asked some awesome people that have come on, and I thought they would never come on, but it's like, Thank God ask because, you know, just, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like? And that's the thing, too, like, I think we just we never know what's going on in other people's lives, like in any in anything, you know, and I think we sometimes can be really quick to judge a person's reaction and put it back onto ourselves. Where it's probably not about us at all, like you said, it's, it's something that in their lives or whatever. Yeah, like, as we know, like all of our lives, we're bound to rob ourselves. Like, I like to think of like Jenna Kutcher, a lot. I always hear that she's just says no to everything. And it's like, it has nothing to do with anybody else. It's just that she has like three priorities. And those are the priorities. So if it's not one of those three things, it's going to be no. And I feel that way about like, when I'm even asked to, let's say, like, over a friend's house or something. If it's, if I'm not feeling up to if my kids are not feeling good, like whatever it is, it's like it's gonna be no, if it doesn't feel any of those things. Hmm, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with saying that like, again, this boundary setting, looking after ourselves, not just saying yes, because we feel we feel bad if we say no. Yeah, well, then you feel guilty or resentful, or saying yes, if you didn't say no. And that's the worst is like saying yes. And not meaning it or wishing that you said no, or being mad that somebody isn't giving you something? Because you said yes. Because you said yes. You know, exactly. Yeah. It's like watching there, isn't there? Yeah, I have a good example to go along with that. One of my girlfriends is getting married. And I told her that I would do her wedding flowers. And I wished that I didn't say, and I'm feeling resentful now. Because it's like, I would rather not commit the time and my own finances to do it. And it's like a really generous gift. And I was like, Is this really like, Why did I say yes, and I'm going back and forth with it. And it's like, I need to just commit myself and I am going to commit myself because I agreed to it. But that's like a really good example of something that you should think, before you say yes. And try not to be resentful of the fact that you did. Because that's the thing isn't like, things can seem really good at the time. And then when you think about it, and you go, oh, like I've done that with singing gigs. And I've said yes to things because I thought, oh, yeah, that'll be fun. And then I thought, ah, but I have to rehearse and I have to learn these songs. And I'm, like, I'm, in my mind. I'm thinking of the gig. I'm thinking, Oh, that'd be awesome. But then I step back and go, Ah, crap, all this stuff that needs to happen to do that. And I think, ah, like, it's not just the thing. Yeah, everything else to go with it. So it's like, my friend's wedding is like Thanksgiving weekend, it's, so it's gonna be a pain in the neck to get flowers. And for her, it's gonna be I have another wedding the next day. So it's like, I'm gonna be adding more work to my load. And it's like, all these other things that make it a lot more difficult than just doing the thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I've gotten I think, I don't know if this is a bad thing to say. But the COVID Everything that happened with COVID actually gave me a time to think about like saying no more like I really enjoyed not rushing out because everything got canceled, all the gigs got canceled, which to start with was quite bad. And then I sort of went actually I'm enjoying not going out all the time now and I'm glad the pressures off because now I don't have to do this. And I know that obviously I'm not dismissing COVID at all like it's very bad a lot of people have have suffered because of it and economies and everything. But one good thing came out of it is it made me start saying no to things because I remembered how good it felt not doing things. Yes, I agree with that. And I agree wholeheartedly with that conversation. cuz, yes, COVID was awful for many people. But there were so many good things that also came out of it like my business, like, as a floral designer took off because of COVID. Because all of the other floors were booked. And there were so many delays so that I was able to actually do 50 Weddings last year and was my first year of business. So it's like, that shouldn't have been possible. But it was because of COVID. And, like you said, like enjoying the actual time, but you had to yourself because of it, we had that same kind of situation, like in 2020, that we were able to just enjoy ourselves and our little family. I actually enjoyed being not having visitors in the hospital when I gave birth, because I had two COVID babies. So it was like I enjoyed being able to actually just be the three of us and not worry about everyone in their brother coming in while I'm breastfeeding and stuff like that. Yeah, I think there was a good stuff. Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? Because I think that can that's another whole issue about people not having boundaries, when people have babies that it's like, you just assume, Oh, you've had a baby, great, we'll go see them. And, you know, a lot of people are now saying, we'll let you know, you know, even waiting till they get home and even you know, settling in waiting till breastfeeding is established or, you know, any challenges. I've got an even, like, over here, not so much now. But a few years ago, there was a big thing with whooping cough. So people were saying until you're vaccinated, we don't want you to come to see the baby. So yeah, and I think people just getting more respectful of other people's, you know, wishes, just because it's always been done a certain way doesn't mean that that's, you know, how we should keep doing things. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Having the boundaries, and not holding it to like, the expectation that that's how things have to go, you can make it, you can make those decisions and say that this is the new way of doing things. And then actually like it better having the babies like during COVID and saying no, or at least like in the postpartum experience. I can't imagine, like, this is something that I had establishes boundaries, like if you want to come over, you have to bring dinner. Love that, that people are like, can I come over visit? Like, you know, what are you bringing for dinner? Like, are you gonna come over and do some laundry for me? Because I don't want to entertain you. Yes, that is awesome. Like, literally, what are you bringing with you? What are you going to do while you're here, you're just going to sit on your ass and hold my baby while I sit there and think of all these things I've got to do. Or I could be asleep right now. You know. I love that. So we have a digital production company that we just started. And it came to be because of all of the stuff that I've been doing with the YouTube and the podcast and all the social media management and all of that stuff because I had to put together a team to do it. I'm sure you have one too, with editing and whatnot. So I was like, Oh, my goodness, it's a game changer. I've got time, right, you know, it's this is, yeah, I've got time. I can do it. I did not time. So I was like I cannot be sitting here on my computer doing all this. So I hired a team to help me do it. And I realized I'm like, this is a need that I can fill and I need to at least monetize what I'm doing. Because at this point, I was just shelling money out trying to get everything edited and monitor my podcasts and just everything. Social media service, like let me share my team with people to see well that's where that came to be. Yep. So primarily, we help people with podcast editing and production, YouTube Editing and the SEO that goes with it, like the keywords and the titles and the thumbnails and the backlinks and all those fun things that I didn't even know was a thing until I started doing it. Yeah. And social media management. Yeah, right. So where can people find find you online with that if people want a Fievel interested in that. So it's mama media, ma ma M Ed ia.org. And that's where you could find us for those services. was cool. I'll put a link to that in the show notes if anyone wants to check that out. Yeah, it's interesting, like when you say, like, I do it myself because I can and because I really, I had all the equipment here from my singing, so I didn't have to purchase anything and got my mixer, I've got my mic and everything, and I can do all my editing myself. And I actually really love doing it. Like, that's part one of the parts that I actually I really look forward to doing because I love fiddling around doing things, you know, that's just my thing. But there'd be a lot of people that don't love that and don't have the time and don't have the equipment to do it. So I think that's a really good service and good on you for for like, being able to like you've got that team you can share with other people. It's already there. And you can go right, I mean, you can do this for other people. Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, like, it came, like I was just showing money out the door. And I'm like, I can't keep doing this. Like I need to be able to bring something in here. Somehow. I was like, How can I monetize this. And I was like that, like, you've got a perfect little formula right here, like just put it out there. And I love the name T that's a really cool name. Thank you. Just like to share with everybody that listens, that you can do whatever you want in this life, and you don't have to be defined because you're a mom or by that title, you can seriously have your cake and eat it too. And what I mean by that is you can create the businesses that you want, you can create the financial freedom, that financial security that you want, you can do the hobbies that bring you joy, you can create anything that you want in this life. So don't let being a mom define you by that. I grew up with so many people that did and they are not happy, like at the end of the day. And it just is a shame because they're meant for more than that. Hmm, yeah, that's a really, really well said, Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? We just because we have a child doesn't mean that our whole rest of our life has to stop existing. Yeah, like, there's a trend going around right now. That's mom before she was mom. And it's like, all the photos of her having fun. And then like, as a mom, it's just she's holding the kids and putting them down for bed. And it's like, you can do all those fun things with them. Like, it doesn't have to be an end to your life. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It doesn't stop. And I think that's the thing like our, my parents generation, that there was very much, it was very much of us in them. Like, obviously, we're crazy family. But, you know, parents would do so much stuff without the kids. Whereas now I feel like we're involving our kids in so much more other parts of our lives that I wasn't involved in with my parents. So that's really good change, I think. Yeah, I think it's really positive and important and impactful for them to to be part of it. You know, if I were watching my mom, like, do the things that she wanted to do, I think you'd one like have like a newfound respect for them, because you're seeing them doing what they love and happy and joyful. And it's also like setting an example for you that you can do it too, huh? Absolutely. Yeah. It's great. That's a lovely note to end on. Thank you. It's been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you so much for giving me your time today. It's not time over there, isn't it? What time is it? There? They go. It's quarter past 10 In the morning, over here. So it's really a lovely start to my day. Thank you and all the best with everything. I'm sure you're gonna keep keep ticking things off that bucket list and keep achieving things because you Yeah, very motivated, very driven. And it's it's lovely to chat with you. Thank you, Alison. It's been so fun. I hope that everybody enjoyed our chat too. If anybody wants to come over and listen to more than we've got going on come to the Mickey money moves show. I'd love to have Allison on. And you can find me on Instagram at list dot Morton. Awesome. And yes, I'll put all the links so everyone can just click away and find you and that would be awesome. Thank you again. It's been great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor and she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes Your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Danielle Kloberdanz Netherlands born author S2 Ep52 Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Danielle Kloberdanz, an author based in San Diego, California and a mother of 4. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands. A child of 3, Danielle was always interested in children, and began baby sitting the neighbours children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families, and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development and went on to study Developmental Psychology at College, It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who was soon to be her husband, 9 months later in fact! They enjoyed a whirlwind romance, travelling Europe together, before being married and settling down. Her dream was to have 4 children, and Danielle was determined to make that happen, even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Danielle finally realised her lifelong dream of having 4 children, it was then that she slowly realised that she no longer existed as a person, and her idea of what being a 'good mum' meant, was challenged. Danielle released her first book Inner Compass Mom: Finding Peace and Purpose in the Midst of Motherhood in May 2021 which outlines her journey, and the life changing experience which lead to her new outlook on motherhood. **This episode contains discussions around miscarriage, premature birth, ** Connect with Danielle Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Danielle Clover Dan's an author based in San Diego, California, and a mum of four children. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands, a child of three. Danielle was always interested in children and babies, and she began babysitting the neighbor's children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development, and went on to study developmental psychology at college. It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who assumed to be your husband. Nine months later, in fact, they enjoyed a whirlwind romance traveling Europe together before being married and settling down. Her dream was always to have four children. And Danielle was determined to make that happen. Even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Daniel finally realized her lifelong dream of having those four children, it was then that she slowly realized that she no longer existed as a person. And her idea of what being a good mom meant was challenged. Danielle released her first book, inner compass mum finding peace and purpose in the midst of motherhood in May of 2021. The book outlines her journey and the life changing experience which led to her new outlook on motherhood. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and premature birth. Music you'll hear today is from Australian ambient music trio LM Joe, featuring myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John N is used with permission. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome along today, Danielle, it's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. I am intrigued by your podcasts and listened to several and Oh, thank you. I was excited to be on this one. Awesome. Wow, what time is it in your your zone? Well, we've just gone past 11:30am So it's quite a nice Sunday morning. Just nice and lazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. It looks sunny in your place. Yeah, I've had to close the blinds because the sun's coming in so much. It's like distorting, like how I look to you. Yes, I can see the glow. I have to do some artificial glow because the sun is going down here. So yeah. What's the what's the time there? It's 7pm. Right. Yeah. We just had the time change the, you know, daylight savings. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you right now. In San Diego, San Diego, San Diego, California. Right now you're in San Diego. But whereabouts did you start out in life? Well, I was born and raised in Holland, in the Netherlands. And I well, I moved to San Diego or to actually to Orange County, California, at the age of 26, barely 26. But before I met my husband, I you know, just did the normal thing and went to college to study developmental psychology in Amsterdam. And then I, I had, you know, a job for about a year it was hard to find a job in my field actually. And I worked at a temp agency for a year and that's when I met my my husband during that time. But yeah, so I just I, to be honest, I never really cared about a career. I just wanted to have a family and but what do you do? You're not just gonna sit around wait for some guy to come along. Are you, you know, you got to make some of your life and then hopefully it all happen. So I went to college, and I always loved babysitting, I loved hanging out with kids, I loved watching their, you know, development and how they think and how they would learn. So I was intrigued by children's. So developmental psychology really seemed to fit fit me. And so that's what I pursued. And yeah, until I met my husband, when I was 25. Actually, he got married when I was 26. And then I moved over to the United States. Yeah. So that that interest in wanting to become a mom, that intense drive, was that something cultural or something that you'd been exposed to growing up? Was that sort of the norm that you would grow up? Women would have children? Or was that something innate in yourself? Do you think? Well, my mom was a stay at home mom, until I was and I'm, I'm the youngest of three, I have two older sisters, and we're all a couple of years apart. And then my mom started working when I was in my mid teens, so to say, but I always just I wanted to be a mom, I wasn't sure what I would. I wasn't really sure what I was good at. Like in school, I was kind of an average student, like, nothing really stood out. The actually the best the subject that was that was easiest for me, was actually English, English is mandatory middle school and high school. And that was the only subject that was kind of came more natural to me. It turned out came in handy later, for sure. But I was intrigued by by science, but I wasn't very good at it. You know, like math, oh, my gosh, you know, just just not my thing. So I was like, What am I good at? What is my passion. And then I started babysitting the family across the street from us when I was like, 12, just an hour. So mom could do groceries, and I just loved it. And they, they had a big family, they ended up having five kids. And the parents themselves were from large families. So whenever there was a birthday party, I was invited, and the whole house was just filled with this wonderful energy. People were laughing and having wonderful comfort stations. And everybody just seemed happy. And I just wanted to create a big happy family for myself. And that's all I really wanted. I just wanted to be a stay at home mom, and I thought I would thoroughly enjoy it. Well, we'll talk about that later how to, you know, the life that I wanted happen and then, you know, it turns out isn't really as fulfilling as I had hoped it would be. talking us through, you know, you met your husband, you got married? Was it then like straight away? Right, let's do this. We're gonna have this family that I've always dreamed of. How did how did it sort of go from there? Yes. So when? So I met my husband at my sister's wedding actually, she was able, I mean, we all grew up in Holland. You know, we my sister, so but she was able to get a two year visa to work in the US. And during that time she met a guy decided to marry him. And so we went to the wedding. And that's where I met my husband. And we so we dated for a while. I mean, nothing happened at the wedding. People can read the story in my mom, they can read all the details and how all that went down. But basically, because I was living in Holland, we basically dated internationally and we traveled in Europe and we dated in you know, Belgium like Bruges and Antwerp and Barcelona and then basically, seven months, but no, it was eight months after we met he proposed to me in in Prague, so and the next month we were married so like within like nine months out After we met, we were married. And we, we read it, and then a couple months later was able to emigrate. Yeah, we were married in February. And I emigrated in April. So that all happened really fast. And so we decided to wait a little bit with having kids because also, my husband wanted to get his master's in business. So we decided to just get that out of the way before we'd have kids and enjoy a little bit more freedom before you know, babies would arrive and get to know each other even better each other nine months. But I will say, when you travel together, you get to know each other really fast. And it's either going to work or it's not. And it was going to work. So we we were just both convinced, you know, once you know, you just know. And we just celebrated our 24th wedding anniversary. Stories isn't it's a real love story. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. My husband comes from a large family. By the way, I was thrilled to find out when I met him, and we get to know each other, that my husband is one of eight children. He's number five. And I just loved it. And his older siblings already had kids. And so every family get together was just filled with, you know, that same kind of energy. The laughter everybody's talking, and just having a great time and bringing up both stories from the past. And just I don't know, there's just something about big families that I just love. And yeah, so he's like, Okay, you want to have kids? Okay, well, three, or fours. What do you have in mind? Well, first half of what I grew up with, so I guess, we'll figure out how to manage that my mum managed to, you know, raise eight children. I don't know how she did it. Anyway, yeah. So yeah, so you're pretty happy with four. Four is a good number. Well, it's an even though it I was I was the last one of three. So sometimes I did feel like, you know, my two older sisters would, would play together. And I was always a little too young or third wheel basically. So I always figured, you know, if possible, even numbers, and my husband loves numbers. He loves even numbers. He's, he's his background is in accounting. He's not he does production now. But he, he loves even balance. And it worked out well actually. Having two sets of kids basically. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. The first two are close in age. They're 19 months apart. And and then I felt tell you after the second one, because I always had complicated pregnancies. I was putting bedrest I had preterm labor with every every child. With the first one. I made it to 38 weeks, so I thought, well, maybe it wasn't that big of an issue. Maybe we'll be fine. So we tried for another one. And I, I got pregnant, fast. And so they're 90 months apart, but I was definitely put up that this again with the second one. So she was actually born five weeks, early at 35 weeks. But the fine she was in the NICU for like eight days, I think. And then she came home. So that was a bit like, oh, wow, that's, you know, you know, a second pregnancy and now you know, we are preterm here, but 90 months is is a bit challenging. I think any parent who has kids close in age knows that you probably will have to in diapers for a while. And then there's this sibling rivalry that really was an issue. And it's a lot. So I actually thought, oh, and at the time, my husband was really busy. Like he worked 60 hours a week. He traveled a lot. So I felt like I was a single mom. So after having to I thought there's no way You can have more kids, I can barely manage to what was I thinking, wanting to have all these kids, it's just no way. But as life went on, and the kids got to be a little bit older, and you know of the diaper phase and things like that, I did start secretly longing for another baby, there's just something in me that said, I don't want to be done, baby, there's something about having babies, and I don't know, I just didn't want to be done. And then actually, what happened was, I had, I had just regular you know, bloodwork done just a doctor's appointment to suit annual checkup, or whatever it was just like, hey, we haven't checked your blood. And while let's just see. And it turned out that my platelet count was really, really low. And so they sent me to a specialist. And the specialist said, this is this is not good. This is not a good situation, we got to figure out what's going on, because you could have an autoimmune disease disorder. It might be leukemia, it might be a mess. And I was just shocked. Because I mean, I did feel healthy, but you just never know what's going on, you just don't know. So I went back for several months to get checked and checked. And it turned out what probably happened was my birth control, which my naturopathic doctor said, like, why don't you stop taking birth control, because I had switched and sometimes that I guess, with some can be the cause of, you know, but the platelets start to stick anyway, not a doctor. So, but after several months, my blood started. So unlike normal levels again, and then I think it was like seven months. And my doctor said, Okay, I guess you're, you're healthy. It must have been that and, you know, you have a clean bill of health. And I remember sitting in my car after that appointment, and I just started crying like, oh my gosh, you know, like, this is like a miracle you because, you know, I had so much fear, like, what if I have a disease? What if I have something that's really life changing? Or, you know, potentially worse, so? And I remember it so well, that moment, because I think our youngest was about two or three, two years old. And I thought, Well, what do I want to do, you have a second chance of living healthy life. And I just remember, I know exactly what I want. And I want to I want to have more babies. And I want to stop living in fear. Because there are no guarantees in life. There really aren't, you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. So I figured I might as well go for my big dream and figure it out. And right at the time, I My husband was able to get the job in San Diego. And we ended up moving and everything became a lot more manageable and simple. And just a normal 40 hour workweek and a short commute. So that created space for us to have another baby and and then yeah, number girl number three came along and and then you know, I was ready like after yours ready paid. Let's do this. Let's have another one. Come on baby number four, right all in well. And then I think God or the Universe told me that so fast, not so fast. So I miscarried a couple of times, which was, which was really shocking to me that really, that really messed with me. Well woke me up actually, just to be the more I think the more grateful for how easy it was always for me to get pregnant. I would always get pregnant right away and the Healthy Kids and that's something you can never take for granted, you know. But I was going through a trying time of Wow. So I am feeling this really strong desire for a fourth child. That just felt so right to me like, No, we're gonna have four kids. This is what I wanted. This is what I'm gonna get. This is yeah, why wouldn't I Why wouldn't that happen to me or for me? And because of the two miscarriages and because I get pregnant And right away. I'm like, I need time I need to figure out, I need to get some answers. And I was already very spiritual. And what I do is I basically asked the universe guide me show me, what am I supposed to do? Give me some answers. And I knew I had to just give it some time and like, I'm not gonna, we're not going to try for a few months, several months, we're just going to wait and then try to think about it and just just give it maybe even half a year. And then we'll see if I get any signs if I changed my mind, I don't know. And then, pretty quickly after I decided actually, to just wait for a few months, I had this dream. I don't know if I should go to all these details. It's all in the book. But it basically was, I was at this convention. And there was this Native American Chief is very wise man that anybody had questions? He could answer like he was connected to God university could just channeled answers. And I was waiting patiently for my turn. And I kind of close my eyes kind of meditating is it was all in my dream. And, of course, I knew what I was going to ask like, are we meant to have a fourth child because I believe you can want something but I also believe it has to like, integrate with what maybe the universe wants for you. Or there's some mystery around that. Like, what is freewill? What is destiny? What are we meant to do here? So I just wasn't sure. Anyway, in my dream, when I finally it was my turn to ask this chief. I opened my eyes and it was kind of waiting. I had been it's gonna be kind of weird. The teeth was not there. But there was big poster that said, Yes, of course, you meant to have another child just don't wait. You need to try now. And I'm like, gosh, I woke up and I go, Oh, my gosh, it's here. This is it. And it's I don't know any any listener who who's worked with beans before and has had these guiding dreams, the energy that comes from these dreams. It's so different. You feel transformed, you wake up, and you know, this is different. This is not just oh, you're just processing your day today. Your worries, your anxieties. This is this is a lot more and you just know, this is it. I have to follow this. And yeah, sure enough, nine months later, we had our baby boy. It's like, I will live my life that way. If I if I'm stuck. I don't know. I throw my I know, there's an answer for me. And I throw it out there in the universe to God or whatever you want to call it. Just expect an answer to come and it always comes you got to learn to receive it. Yeah, that's it isn't about being open and allowing it to come and not questioning or not trying to second guess it's just what do you have to tell me and just waiting for it to come? Yeah, it does. If you Yeah, if you're open to it, you'll you'll get it? Yeah, I'm a big believer in that too. Yeah. So you hate we've got your four kids, you've got your dream. And how did things go from them? So I think moms who are listening can recognize that you know, the first couple of years the baby years toddler years, they're just intense It's physical. It's draining I mean, you don't sleep at night you're just chasing them they're starting to crawl I mean it's it's very demanding. And and then you think well, it's gonna get easier as they get a little older and it does it does get easier so that's what I thought you know, let's see had you know, first of all, after I had two kids that well it's gonna get easier it was very hard in the beginning with only 19 months apart, and then it got easier and then yeah, we added more kids so I thought okay, it's a lot I got a kid in elementary school and a preschool and then again, a toddler at home and a newborn but it's gonna get easier we're gonna get through this and many others have done this before me. And and and something Of course, they'll get easier. But there's also other things that got harder, you know, you're dealing with four kids with very different personalities, and every kid needs something else from you. And I think one of the frustrating parts is, you think you've figured something out with one kid, and you're like, Oh, this is great, it's working, this is working, my kid is actually doing what I needed to do, or everything is kind of flowing better, and you try to apply it to another kid forget, it's not going to work. Or two weeks later, a month later, the same system, same approach, it's just not working anymore. So you constantly have to, like reinvent yourself or something. And so, it, it was harder and or in different ways. And that feeling that I was looking for, and longing for, of like creating this, basically, this this house full of joy, these kids running around and being all happy and bringing me joy and liveliness, and you know, the whole purpose. It. Yeah, there were moments like that. Absolutely. You know, but not enough for me to say yes, now I have exactly what I wanted. Technically I did it looked like that on the outside, I have exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools, and something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time I would beat myself up stuffing so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy. Why are you not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. So that's when I went on my my journey of getting some answers of how I would make some changes in my life. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming four kids, you've outlined you know all the different stages. It's also demanding like weird. Did you actually fit in there? Did you feel like you were just that you existed only for your children? That was the only thing that you did was meet the needs of your children? Basically, yeah, I basically I was wanting to be moms. So now I know, the way I define being a good mom. And I'm connected to a lot of moms in especially in my neighborhood. And basically, I now know why I got so stuck and why I wasn't as fulfilled with my situations because I the way I defined what it means to be a good mom. And that's how we get stuck. That's how I got stuck. I will find being a good mom as someone who you got to give everything to your children and you just do everything, maybe not do everything for them. Because you know, they gotta learn to do things on their own. But, you know, you you create that family, you create the memories and you you know, you drop everything and you make sure to go to the birthday parties, and they go to try different sports and music and, and everything because you give give give because that's a bit mum. Because when you're a good mom, you make sure you you give them the right education and that they do really well in school. So you support all their education, their school, and if they need anything, you're right there talking to the teacher, whatever it takes to give this child and all these kids the best possible situation so that they can go to college and have a good career later on because then there'll be happy and then and I didn't realize that that's where it all came from until I had my spiritual awakening a few years ago. It was so because I thought if they did well and checked all the boxes, you know The boxes, graduating high school, going into college graduating, they're finding a good company to work for getting married, given me grandbabies, that will mean that I had done a good job as a mom. And when I had my spiritual awakening, I realized all the flaws in my thinking, because it's just not true. It's just not true. And it doesn't mean the opposite is true. Like, yeah, that. Because, yeah, we all influence our lives. Our kids, like they influence everybody that who we meet, who, whose lives we touch we do. But when I had my awakening, I saw that the picture is so much bigger than we experience in our day to day life, or at least that than what I had experienced in my day to day like, it's like, almost like I used to have tunnel vision. And then even the narrow vision I had of my life and life in general, was also tainted by this lens that was so colored by life experiences, by biases by judgments by your culture by a roll up. Yes. So when I had that, that awakening, which just basically happened in broad daylight in my kitchen, not being under the influence of anything, every reason? Why did you smoke? Me? And people can read about that in the compass. Mom, how that all went down? I won't go into details. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It shifted my perspective completely about everything that I believed was true, you know, waking up to all my false and limiting beliefs. Yeah, so when you had that, how did you then make the changes, I suppose like, it's, like you say, had this moment, and it's the sixth you've had this. I don't know what the word is epiphany, it's, you've realized how you can live your life in a different way to, to, to feel, you know, meet your needs, I guess, where you like practically, then like, how did you think, Oh, how am I actually going to do this? I suppose. That's a big question, I suppose. Yeah. Well, let me let me try to answer that. Because about a year before it had that awakening, I had already decided that I needed to make a change. I think my youngest my son was about three years old. And I already had recognized or acknowledged that. I'm not happy. Stop denying it. You need to make a change, because this is not going to get any better automatically. I have to, and I didn't know how I was going to make a change. But I realized what I was what I was craving was silence. I just needed solitude. Just silence. And not all that mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, you know, it isn't just constant. They always need as soon as they see you for a while. This has just always been fascinating to me. They're playing nicely in their room, the doors open. So you walk by often they realize, oh, we need more. I'm like, No, he didn't need me for like half an hour. You didn't need me. And I'm walking by. And it's awesome. They need you. They need you for whatever, they'll come up with something. They make it up on the spot. They just need mom. So anyway, I was really craving just solitude and I was craving reading books again. I was never a big reader. But I was always interested in spirituality and psychology. And I hadn't read a book in 10 years or so. Because if you have kids, you don't even want to I mean, I talked to a lot of moms who are going through that now. I mean, I I published my book a year ago, almost. And a lot of moms with young ones. They say, I have your book. I just I just can't get to it. I am like I hear you. I hear you. So I actually recorded the audiobook because moms can listen to audiobooks or podcasts while they're folding laundry or commuting to work or whatever. So yeah, that'll help solve that. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't read a book for like 10 years and then it was Breathing, oh, information and getting that inspiration again, about you know, so I started reading. And then what actually happened was, I was so intrigued by what I read. In these books, I started taking notes, I started journaling about all these amazing insights, it was like, it was like I had been asleep for 10 years. And also, there's a whole new world out there, that doesn't really have kids in it. And it's like, so amazing. And I was just inspired again. And so yeah, I that's how I started to come alive. Again, reading and journaling, and even doing a little bit of art, drawing a little bit of painting again, and just taking time for myself. There's a quote in the book where you say that you discovered parts of yourself that you had forgotten about. And that would have been just an incredible thing, like you say, you got back to painting and creating, did that sort of take you back to a time where you didn't have children? That? Yes, yes. And I think the biggest thing that has to do with creating art is its flow. You need and you need time to get into that flow. And it's when you have you have kids at home, forget it, every few minutes, you're going to be interrupted. And that's you just can't have that flow. So when when my youngest started going into peaceful kindergarten, I had just more time and of course, I was very realistic, I was very lucky that I was able to stay at home with my kids and that I didn't have to have a job outside of the home, a paying job outside of the home. So I could actually do that and take some time. To myself and just schedule it. I had to schedule it like schedule a block of a couple of hours a week to make sure would happen because it's still busy. You know, you're doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, just because the children aren't there. It doesn't mean everything's that long and keeps on coming somehow. Yeah. That's why it's actually funny when you say about laundry. That's like the Bane I think every mother's existence, it just doesn't stop. And one day I was complaining about it to my own mom, and she said, You know, one day you're gonna miss doing their laundry. And I was like, Okay, mom. All right. Like, I could see that that was saying, you know, you grow up and you move out and we miss it. So I thought, right, I don't take it for granted. Like you're saying before, don't take things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. It's okay. Yeah, I hear that too. From I remember people saying, well, one day you're gonna miss this man. Yeah, but I still am struggling right now. Exactly. You still got to do it deprived and still and I think it's okay. For moms who are hearing this are overwhelmed because I think all moms go through this stage, but they're just overwhelmed. And when somebody tells them one day, you're gonna miss it. So try to enjoy it and it's like, no, you're not listening to me. I'm overwhelmed. It's okay to feel overwhelmed and and don't feel guilty about it. It's it's part of the journey it's it's okay it's a lot raising kids is a lot especially in today's world it can be overwhelming Yeah. comes down to even like 20 years ago like very different worlds. Yeah, that's for sure. You briefly mentioned guilt there. I'd love to bring you to one of the topics that I chat to my mom's about on this show is mom guilt and I always put it in air quotes because I know it's it's contrived word that I feel like our our social media society has made this this special word hashtag mom guilt. Yeah. That you know that experience for you. How do you How can you sort of relate to that? That mum guilt. I have definitely had my my share of mom guilt a lot, actually. Especially when you have four different kids and some some kids just need more support than other kids and it's kids don't come with a manual for First of all, and when you really think about it, I think somebody wants told me that there are more parenting books than dieting books. And to me, that only tells you one thing, nobody has really figured it out yet either. Otherwise, there would be one book, and we'd all be reading it. And so nobody has figured it all out. We have to just keep learning as we go, you can read all the books you want before you have that baby, and you will never be prepared for what is to come. Once that baby is there, you never will be you. So you just do the best you can you figure it out. But in the meantime, we definitely go through things. I can't imagine any mom and sister in law, and like mom's figured it all out. But I think all moms go through guilt. You go to bed at night, and you're like, Why did I raise my voice? Why did I bite my tongue? Why did I say this? Why did I? Or should I should have done this or should have done that? I've done this. You're constantly doubting yourself, like wondering if you should have done this or that. And you just feel guilty? Like? Because you're not sure what to do? Because nobody? Well, nobody will tell you that's not really the right thing. Because we don't even well, sometimes we want people to tell us but on the other hand, one size does not fit all. It's a thing that I've been frustrated with before when you see titles of books. And it sounds like Oh 10 steps to raise and that begins or well adjusted kids. And for some foster kids who have well integrated brains, for example, the the like the sticker system or the reward system, you know, to get kids to maybe clean up their room and do their chores. For kids who have well integrated brains and rebalance, it works like a charm. It really does work well. But for kids who are not forget it, it's not that easy. And it's frustrating when when you have a child that is, you know, a little more complex. And I know there's a lot of moms out there who struggled with that, like, well, it doesn't work for my kid, or you need to have a lot more layers to that system of support, to have somewhat of an effect. But anyway, I kind of digress here, but back to mom guilt. So yeah, it's real because we feel we're not sure if we're doing the right thing. But when I had my awakening, instantly, it was gone, all the guilt was gone. All the guilt, it was gone, all the should haves could have they were gone, be saved did not matter at all. What mattered was what I realized, as I was showered with this incredible, unconditional love that washed away anything negative. Whether it was guilt. I mean, I felt forgiven, even though forgiveness wasn't even really needed, because we're not guilty. We we just it's not easy being a human being. It's that's just the reality that because we live in our mental world, and that's it gets very conflicted. There's a lot of conflict happening in our mental world. And then when he was in that state, the guilt was gone, because I knew, I knew with every fiber of my being that all I needed to do was the best I could and it was enough. We're here to learn to grow and to evolve as individual souls and also as a collective and, and bold influence. You know, we influence the collective and the collective influences. As it turns out, there's just no way around that. It's hand in hand. And he, yeah, I realized I had such a narrow perspective before that experience. And all of a sudden, my perspective was so big. And I realized we are not born a blank slate. You know, we carry the DNA of our ancestors. We are influenced by our culture, our families, our teachers, society. And then I also believe we we carry energies from possibly past lives. And that all of that merges into one, individual. And so now, as a parent, we are trying to guide children who come with, let's call it baggage. And some have some lighter baggage and others have navvy baggage. And we think we can fix it, we think we can, we're supposed to fix it, we think we're supposed to pull them up on that mountaintop. And it's like an uphill battle. Because we don't realize that we actually have very little control, we actually have, like, no control, we can control anybody else really not really. And the thing was, I was completely surrendering to whatever was happening. I was completely in the moment, the past was just not important at all, they would just the past was just stories that got me to where I was now. And anything that I've ever maybe felt bad about. It didn't matter, because their stories. And what mattered was now I experienced the pure moment of awareness, which is now which is really all we have, because the past is gone. And when you really think about it, the future hasn't happened, we really only have the present moment. And I live purely in the moment, I didn't worry any more about the future, because there is no use to be worrying about anything. Life just unfolds moment by moment. And I just surrendered. And I had this profound trust, that life just evolves, and unfolds mysteriously. And you don't have to understand at all, that was a big thing. You don't have to understand that though. Because you will never understand all of life, you will never understand this incredible masterpiece that we are part of the end, it was fine, I was fine with it. I just had this deep trust, that somehow life will unfold. And I will always continue to exist as a soul or whatever energy level. So I didn't have a worry in the world. And that lasted almost for a week. And it was just amazing. Oh, my problems are gone. It was it was yeah, the most incredible experience that I ever could have imagined. And to get back to the practice of wanting an answer. And throwing it out there into the universe. That Spiritual Awakening was an answer to my burning question. At the time, I had become very spiritual. And I was already was energized. I felt better about myself. But what happened was, I felt like a spiritual island in my family. I couldn't connect to my family because they were not all that spiritual. And I knew I couldn't just preach to them. Well, it's this is how it is. And because it was my truth, but it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate truth. But who knows, you know, nobody can prove anything. I can't prove God exists. And I can't prove God doesn't exist. You know, it's one of those things that you believe what you believe. And you know, what do you know? But I felt very kind of isolated. And one day I realized, I don't have to put up with that. There's got to be an answer. And so I threw it out in the US into the universe. And I I do this thing where I follow signs, you can read about it in the book. And one day I had this deeper awareness and I'm like, Okay, that's a sign I got to follow this lead. And it was leading me to a book and once I read this paragraph, it took me through this whole process, this mental process of kind of analyzing some things from my past. And also it got me into this awakening. And basically the answer to my question, how do I connect at a deeper levels, more spiritual, conscious level of my family? And it was unconditional love. It was complete acceptance of my family members. They're all flawed. We're all flawed. That that's the Oh only way we can learn and evolve. It's through our shortcomings to our flaws and the Nadeen flaws. They're just imperfections, because that comes with being a human being. And I loved my family unconditionally, I was showered with an unconditional love. And I can see, I was made whole. That was the whole thing was made whole, I felt complete. And I could see that everybody was holed. Also, I could see it in my family members, anybody who I would run into in the supermarket, like it's, it's a weird, I can't even describe it. But I knew and I could see David Hall, complete already at that soul level. But the problem is, we live in our mental world, where there's all this inner conflict and these judgments and these limiting beliefs of how we think we should live life the best way and all that. But it's so flawed in prisons as really, but it's part of the whole human journey. But that Awakening was an answer to this burning question. So you do get answers, you just need to be really eager to get the answer. So then, how did your relationships with your family change? They would have been able to notice the way that you know, Mum was now things are a bit different did that? How did that sort of go? i To be honest, I hardly even really talked about it. During those days, I talked a little bit to my husband about it bit by bit because I it was such a kind of shocking experience that like, well, not even shocking, it was actually something that I recognized like, I remembered the state of being I had just forgotten about and like, how did I forget that this is another way of being but anyway, I couldn't find the words to describe what had happened to me, it took me a long time to figure out how to talk about it, and how to write about it. But basically, what happened was, I approached my kids differently I saw because I saw motherhood through completely new lens. And the lens was our children are born with their own purpose. They have to find their own purpose, and they have their own inner compass. to guide them, I realized I have my own inner compass, it's our intuition. It's listening to that own your inner voice that will guide you to life because your soul knows what you love what you're fascinated with what and that leads you to your purpose, just follow the path of inspiration, and you will find your purpose in purposeful life. And our kids have the same and has nothing to do with us really. It's not the way I defined motherhood being a good mom was like I said, you have to check the boxes to make sure they get a good education and you just invest in your family, you give, give give. But what I had learned was we all are responsible for our own happiness, we have to find our own purpose too. And raising kids is part of our purpose. That often there's more, there's more, and I knew there was more for me. And it's our own inner compass that will guide us there. And I realized our kids have their own inner compass, even though we still have to guide them in life when they're young. They know what they want in this lifetime. It's it often gets covered up that they know what they're passionate about. If the opening is there, if you if you let them and it might not look like high school, college, whatever. Yeah. Every kid has to follow their own path. And what we have to let go of is feeling like if a kid doesn't follow that path, that we were not good parents. It is the biggest BS in the world. Our kids are meant to follow their own path. And it might look completely different than what you had in mind because what you had in mind is likely has to do with what you want for for them because then you can feel good about yourself that you did a good job. Yeah, all we really have to do is our very best and they will find their path in life. But it's important that we as parents also create our own fulfilling life if we don't feel fulfilled, if you feel completely fulfilled with raising your parents, fantastic. But if you feel something is missing, I highly encourage anyone figure out what it is and add it to your life. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I love that. So they would all be at the age where they would be aware that, you know, mums written a book mums put a book out mums or you know, published author. Yeah, how do they feel about that? They, it's kind of curious. They, they like it, they kind of accept it, or actually, for a while, because it took me six years to write it. Basically, I had, I had the funny thing is I had already started writing my book before I had this awakening, because I had done so much work, where I love myself to simply pursue what excited me. And I started thinking about, Gosh, I want to write a book, I want to integrate all these wonderful ideas about spirituality and psychology that I get from all these different books, and integrate it into my own book, and then write about my own experiences and insights and whatever. So then after you know, my ego, shut it down many times, like you're not going to write a book, forget about it, who do you think you are, you're going to be a failure, you'll never succeed. You know, one morning, I had a deeper awareness, and I knew you are going to write this book, this is what you're supposed to do. So we started slowly figuring out what I wanted to write about. And then a year later, I had the spiritual awakening. And for a while I thought there is no way I'm going to write about this, forget about it, there is no way I'm going to stick to what I wanted to write about in my book, and forget about it. This is impossible. People will think I'm crazy if I write about this stuff. And lo and behold, of course, I started realizing no, you need to find the courage to, to write about it. So the whole process basically was six years, so much of my youngest kids life is like mom is writing a book mom is writing. They were waiting and waiting. And finally the book is published and this and that. And it's kind of interesting, because we have a lot of families in our neighborhood. And then just the other day, my 13 year old, came home and she said yeah, a friend of mine. She said, Yeah, her mom had to read your book. And she really liked it and like, Oh, that's great. You know, like, it's kind of weird. It's like in our community and and yeah, so yeah, they like they just now think it's normal that Mom Mom wrote a book and doing a podcast and now she's got an audio book coming out and she's getting into life coaching which is really my passion. So yeah, it's interesting definitely. Is it important for you personally, for them to see that you're not just a mum, you're not just you don't just exist exist for them. You're capable your own passions and, you know, achievements. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And what I what I realized during that awakening, and that's what I how I approach my kids now, like, you really have to sense what are you interested in? And listen to that. No. Yeah, we have a responsibility for ourselves and our kids one day when you know, they're adults, too. You do need to find actually take care of yourself. So, you know, if something is a hobby, and you know, it's not gonna make money, it might have to stay a hobby for a while you figure out how to, you know, pay the bills. And then over time, maybe you can see how you can make a living, you know. But it's very important to, to listen to that voice. And also, if you haven't figured it out yet, which is very common for 1618 year olds, like I want to do, you just trust you keep moving forward and trust, you will figure it out, you will keep trusting, just keep moving forward and just relax, you'll be fine. You'll figure it out. It's very important. Yeah, that that kids see that mom is not just mom, especially, I think, with having three daughters. If they ever want to have their own children, I think it's important that they will allow themselves also to not just be mom. And to figure out they're more than just mom. They're whatever they want to be however they want to feel that in. And it doesn't mean it takes away from being the best mom, you want to be. I think it adds I think it makes you even well, it makes you happier mom, you might not spend as much time like I spent time away from my kids, but they're older now. So it is easier, they're very independent. But I don't feel bad about it. Because I know it's good for them to spend time on their own figuring things out on their own. And I still spent plenty of time with them. And unhappier mom for it, and more fulfilled, and therefore also renewing more fulfilled as a parent, you actually give your kids a little more space to figure it out also, on their own. And I think it also shows that, you know, we're all responsible for our unhappiness, nobody can make you happy, you can't make your kids happy. You can make a happy for a day doing something fun. But do happiness, it really does come from within itself, fulfillment and purpose and meaning and only we ourselves can configure that out. Yeah, that is so true, isn't it? When you said before about kids not knowing what they want to do. I feel like over here anyway. The kids like my son, my oldest is 14. And they're already, you know, trying to decide the pathways for their, you know, their education for the job they want to do. And it's like, how can you possibly know at that age, what you want to do for the rest of your life, that is just an unreasonable thing to put on anyone. And I say to my son, you know, I've found my dream job when I was 35. You know, there's never, you're never gonna run out of time, you know, you're gonna go through experience in life, and maybe the thing you think you want to do, you start doing it and go, actually, this is not what I thought change to something else. So that, you know, there's there's no pressure to decide right this second. And that's something I'd love to see sort of change in schooling. I really think we need to have a cultural shift, Big time, big time and education, I see some of the shifts happening already. Because there's so many parents who say, we need to bring back the trades. You know, we're like, for so long, we have been preparing all these kids for higher education. But not all kids want to do higher education, they want to work with their hands, they don't, they don't want to dive into all these, these books and read and they're not all kids are meant to do that. And we have to change as a society really, and and put the same value on on a trades education and a four year college degree. Really, that's what's got to shift. And we also tell our kids that just keep moving forward, make the best decision at that moment. And just know that allow yourself to change your mind if there's a gift you can give yourself is to allow yourself to change course. If you get stuck like well, I want to be let's say I want to be a doctor and from a young age on and then you get older and you realize the reality of it is not really what do you want to do but now you've kind of painted yourself in a corner like I have told everybody for years, I want to be a doctor and then it becomes so hard to acknowledge you want to do something else because now you have to do maybe with family that's like but he was wanting to be a doctor. No, you want to be something else. So we tell our kids always be open minded and allow yourself to change course if you really feel this is not the right direction anymore. You know, and I do think it's just need more time. And they need to have more fun too. And more hands on classes. Yeah, they gotta bring the trades back into the classroom. You know, it's sorry that I'm seeing that shift a bit, but it needs to happen more. That's the thing. Like, you're always going to need someone to fix your roof or, you know, carpentry, you're always going to need people to create with the hands, you know, someone's got the toilet or Yeah, so yeah, that is a great saying some one of the ladies I had on my podcast said, we can't all be astronauts, we have to have a balance in life. Yeah, it's bad knowledge, and I've always found it fascinating. You say you're talking about how it's a different time for the kids. But then the parents like it's really hard to parent children at the moment. Because most of us depending on our age, we didn't have social media, when we were growing up. So it's like, how do you navigate that when you've had absolutely no experience of what it's like to be a teenager? And have that whole new world that you're dealing with? So I think that's something that's, it's really challenging for a lot of parents at the moment. And yeah, I'm so glad I didn't grow up with thank God. It's just a whole, just a whole extra thing you'd have to be worried about all the time. Like life was so simple. When I think back to my childhood and my teenage years. Absolutely, yeah, I think it's, it's a very challenging time for parents to be raising kids. Life, just even just just for adults, life has become so full and fast, are nervous, as soon as actually not wired to process so much information from the 24 hour news cycle, to social media, to all the emails. I always think our parents didn't get all those emails from the schools, you know, from teachers, from the principal, from, you know, the PTA and the fundraisers, and everything that comes our way, we have to process and it is so much more intense. And that's just for the parent. And now we have to manage our children and social media, and doing homework on their computers that we can't watch every second that they're on a computer, like how do we guide I will keep them safe. It's stressful. It's a lot. And we're the first generation of parents that has to figure this out. Our kids were guinea pigs. Yeah, really? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's still developing exponentially. All the apps and all the ways that they can figure out how to get online and we won't even know about it. Yeah. And so it's, yeah, some, I don't know, ever thought that social media was a good idea for for middle schoolers. I don't know, but that it's not. Talking about your coaching that you do now, do you want to just share a little bit about that with this, if you know anyone's listening that thinks that this is something that they'd you know, benefit from? Can you share a little bit about what you do? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thanks. There's just so many moms who kind of feel stuck and it often has to do with that guilt again, they they feel guilty for not being happy because their lives are good this and that. They feel guilty if they even think about taking some time to themselves, or or pursuing something. And what I do is making people aware of all their beliefs that are tied to what it means to be a mom and kind of waking up to how they're thinking and sometimes it has to do with the culture they grew up in. Like, I remember one mom who I think Her background was Vietnamese. And she said, In my culture, the family comes first always you always give to the family, the family is the center, you give, give, give. So it, it just was conflicting with her wanting to have time to herself to pursue something. She didn't even know what it was. But she said, like, I gotta make a change, because I just, I'm just so stressed and whatever, I'm just not not happy. And I know there's she had a few ideas of what she wanted to do, but she just struggled with the guilt. And once we started talking about a different perspective, like, well, how are you now when your kids need you? When your husband needs you? Are you just happy to, you know, be there for them? Or are you like, oh, my gosh, what do they need? Now? What is it now? You know, it's like, the last I'm always like, Oh, my gosh, I never have time to myself. So I told her, Well, what if we reframe it, and you set aside some time for yourself, and then be inspired and enjoy, really be in it and enjoy what you do, guess what's gonna happen. Then when you're present with your family, you're much more present. And then you don't feel so drained. Because you know, every week, you've got this time for yourself. And it's coming every week, and you do what you love. And you keep pursuing different things that maybe it'll shift over time. And then you can just be there for your family even more and more present and more positive. And once you started seeing that, she's like, Oh, no, I get it. Okay. Okay, that's compatible, okay. I can still, like, honor my culture, and honor what I need, you know, so it's always about finding the right perspective. That is healing, because we're often just not seeing it. Right. You know, because we have ideas and beliefs and limits, limiting thoughts. It's about uncovering those. And I, yeah, that's definitely passionate mind to help moms find the right perspective, and then help them pursue what they want to pursue. Yeah, that's wonderful. Good for you. That is just Yeah, it's really wonderful that you can pass that gift on for the, you know, that amazing experience that you've had, and then you can, you know, help so many other moms and, and then that helps, you know, it goes down the line. Like you said, before, we're all connected. Yeah, no, it's further, because I had to change my perspective. I felt guilty taking time. So I know what these moms are going through. So I know, and I know how hard it is to change your perspective. And to break these patterns. I know how hard it is. But I also know the rewards are incredible, not just for yourself, but for your whole family, your whole family will benefit once you become happier. everybody around you is going to feel it. And also another thing when mom is happy, kids feel it. And now, they don't have to feel any responsibility to like, make mom happy. Some kids are sensitive that way. Yeah, they feel kind of responsible. And they don't have to worry about mom anymore, too. I've heard about that, too. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's always it's all good. You know, life might shift. Things might change. But it's always the fear of the change that holds us in place, but gradually integrate the changes. It can be so powerful. Absolutely. It's just it's finding that balance, isn't it? Like your your example of your client? You know, she's honoring what's important to her culturally, but then she's also honoring herself, which is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And getting that balance, right. And that'll be different for every single person. Exactly. That's the whole journey. But I do believe there's always a way in which we can gently integrate some changes. You don't have to make massive changes right away. You know, for some people, that's why they do or they quit their job and this and that, but most people can't do that. So I've done the way I've made it changes was gently integrating all the little changes over time and then, you know, you look back and it's it's a big shift, ultimately. Yeah, that's it. All these little, little tiny things add up to this massive, massive effect over time. Yeah. And then that makes it less daunting. Like you talk fear. Fear certainly holds us back, you know that. Oh, no, what if this doesn't happen or if this doesn't work, or you know, the what ifs that like you were talking before about, you know, we jump forward, we think about the future. But, you know, the only time we really have is, is the present. And there's, there's really no point in jumping forward. And we really only have now and, and what I also realized is, even though we want to make changes on the outside, like, we want to do something, do a hobby or start something, whatever it is, the shift always has to happen mentally, we have to shift our thinking. And sometimes it's a tiny little shift with our thinking. And you know, but then it starts to show on the outside and just a tiny little mental shift is huge, energetically you feel it, and then the world around, you starts to respond differently. It's a fascinating process, I've experienced it, all of a sudden, you need different people, you find yourself in different situations that actually support what you want to do. And it just opens everything up with just tiny little changes that you're making, basically, mentally, it's the mental shifts that you create, and then it starts showing up in your outfit and out for you know, in your world. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. Danielle, it's been so lovely to talk to you this. Wonderful, thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'll put the links for people to get in touch with you in the show notes. But do you have a website or somewhere you'd like to direct people to head to if they'd like to know more? Yes, the easiest one is inner compass. living.com. So inner compass living.com. And they can also reach me at inner compass. living@gmail.com . And if people want to know when my audiobook is coming out, it should be late April, early May. They can sign up for my newsletter that's on the website, and then they'll get my newsletters and a blog and whatever, they'll they'll be in the loop on the latest. So inner compass living.com Fantastic. Oh, wonderful. Look, good luck with it all. And I'm Yeah, excited to, to check out the audio book to because I mean, obviously I've read it on the page. But I think when you hear the person that wrote it, reading, it just adds a completely different dimension to it, you know? So yeah, I'll be excited to check that out, too. Yeah,

Scott Maxwell Father's Day Ep - SA musician + educator S2 Ep61 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome to the first of 2 special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier South Australia and a dad of 4 boys, including a set of twins. Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band, as an 8 year old he was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran, the Shadows, surf pop and his dad taught him lead guitar. In his early high school years Scott created a band with his mates and his interest in music kept developing throughout high school. He wanted to get in the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners and wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching music and did so for years. Scott was the winner of an ARIA Award in 2018 - , The Telstra Music Teacher Award . Scott left his class room teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound, working as a mentor in a not=for=profit organisation that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambier called "Frequency Fridays" with all the incredible instruments he has collected. Connect with Scott instagram youtube Podcast - instagram / website Music you'll hear today is from Scott and is used with permission. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the first of two special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia and the dad of four boys, including a set of twins, Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band. As an eight year old Scott was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran and the shadows. His dad taught him some lead guitar, he loved surf pop music, and in early high school, Scott created a band with his mates. His interest in music just kept developing throughout high school. Scott wanted to get into the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners, and he wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching and did so for many years, and Scott was the winner of an aria award in 2018, winning the Telstra music teacher award. Scott left his classroom teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound. He works as a mentor in a not for profit organization that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job, Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambia, called frequency Friday is explored meditation, new instruments, including crystal bowls, and gongs. And this has triggered a new Sonic obsession for him. Today, we chat about the place that music and sound holds in our culture and society. A little bit about partner guilt and the way that Scott wanted to make a difference in the educational system. The music that you hear throughout this episode is from Scott on all the amazing instruments that he has collected in recent years. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming in. Scott. It's a real pleasure to welcome me and good to get the other side's perspective on the special fallacy episode. Yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome. This is a very unique opportunity. Indeed, it's actually unique that you're in my studio, because I kept many people in my studio. I spend most of my most of my my time in studios. There's nothing like being in a creative space with the Lego guy. Like I was creative. I tried to keep some of it at least nice. But it just That's not me at all. I have to have stuff around me. Like, just sort of, if there was a creative office that was clean, I'd be worried. Yeah, you know, yeah, the fact that this isn't clean, it's just staffing, stuff everywhere. Yeah. And yet most studios are saying this stuff everywhere. So yeah, that's how, you know. I mean, if you could, you know, open a door to inside my brain. That's how my brain looks as well as the stuff everywhere. I think that's most creative people have an idea there. And then there's something else there. And and I need to get to do that. And yeah, yeah. I know. That's right. And then you get so hyper focused on something that you just like, oh, well, what was I thinking? Oh, I don't even know. And then, you know, yeah, it's like, everything else just doesn't exist. And you just, yeah, I've done that many times in here. I've been editing or doing something and then I've sort of lifted my head up and gone. Ah, what are we having fatigue? You know, you just get so fixated on something. Yeah, you do. You do? What are the children doing? Yeah, it's like, I've got 15 minutes before I need to do something. I just gotta go out to my studio just to look at something. And you know, and then you look at the time and you're like, Oh, my God, where did the time go? You know, I'm five minutes late now. Yeah. It was very important is very important. Yeah. Yeah. So tell our listeners, obviously I know what you do. But I'm seeking to tell me more about what you do button, your studio. What do you do in your studio? So my studio is like it's like a rehearsal space. For me a practice space, it's a administration place for my day job. It's it's just a it's an it's like the center of my existence. Really? Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it so much. And it wasn't until I was a parent, did I feel that I needed one? Because I needed a space that that was separate from the world that I was, I was living, I guess, you know, so that I could just be there with be present with, you know, my brain and the creative force. And yeah, so otherwise, it would have just been, you know, up until that stage was just my bedroom. So, you know, because that was a space where there was no one else anyway. So. Yeah, so I think that's, that's probably, that's, that's my studio. Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a spot where it's a spot where I Yeah, where I escaped the world, and I'd be present with myself and, and whatever, whatever I feel, needs to needs to come out. So it's quite a it's quite an unstructured zone. Unless that unless things are unless there's a time when I've got a deadline coming up, then it can be quite a focus structured area, but a lot of the time, it's me researching, it's me experimenting. It's me, yeah. Finding coming down, you know, rabbit holes, and because I'm, like, I'm a, I love sound. So anything to do with sound is really excites me. And, you know, I think as a culture that we could have, we could have easily not built our culture around money and capitalism, but instead built it around sound. Ah, what a cotton said, I know. Like, honestly, this this thing of capitalism. I have been on this for the last probably half a dozen episodes with people all of a sudden it just came to the forefront. And we've been talking about how not just creating mothers but anyone who creates that doesn't receive a monetary renumeration from that, why are they less important to society as people who earn money from their creativity? Like it's just been this massive topic? And we might come into that after? Yeah, I mean, that is something that I've been worried about. Yeah, it's, well, it's, you know, like sound has been at the center of what we do. And there's a school of thought that believes that sound and music was how civilization civilizations formed. Because there was that need for a group mentality there was a need for ritual and there was a need for people to be joining in with whatever whatever it was, but sound was what brought them together. And you think about that pre language stuff as well as sound communication. So you know, anything about humans on the earth have been here for you know, for we don't even know how long but it's only in this last sort of snippet of humanity where, you know, we're pushing the cache and returning the world into a giant shopping mall. Yeah. Yep. I feel like we can talk more about the company. You said your day job do you? Are you still involved in teaching? Are we doing something? Yeah, I am. I'm, I work for an organization called Sovereign or non for profit organization come in Victoria. And I'm involved in a program called transformative learning through creativity. And my job is to mentor primary school teachers in To feel uncomfortable about teaching music in their day to day classrooms, so incorporating music into the into their work, and helping them plan for lessons and deliver and play games and all that sort of stuff with the that music focus. So that's what I get to do I work at five schools in the area. And I go out and work with these work with these amazing teachers, with their wonderful kids. And yes, it's a blast. It's, it's it. Yeah, it's a really, really cool. It's a great job. And it's one where I have a lot of, I have a lot of creative scope as well. No one really tells me what it is that I need to do. So everyone sort of trusts my my own intuition. Yeah, it's that goal to achieve. But it's up to you. How are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And there are challenges that come with the job. But you know, the, that's the challenges that come with any job, but it's usually teach teachers that move, and that sort of thing. So the teachings are very transient sort of occupation for a lot of people, some people stay in the same spot for X amount of years. But a lot of people do move over a lot of contracts going around and that sort of stuff. So yeah, that's what I get to do during the day. And, yeah, yeah, it's a pretty cool gig. So is that like, so the teachers that are sort of teaching the students they don't, it's not sort of like a formal education in music, they don't have to have like training in musical theater. It's about just as the incorporating it in sort of, I mean, I used to work in childcare. So yeah, we put music in, I'm just comparing it to that, like, yeah, anytime someone was doing something, and a child paid attention to one particular thing, or whatever you did, I know, there'd be a song that went with that, you know, like, I had a friend that used to do this, every time you'd say something, she could break out into a song lyric, it's like, you just, you just go off, you're picking up something, or let's sing the song about picking up, you know, that sort of that sort of way. It's like making it part of just everyday life sort of thing. Maybe not to that extreme, but it's probably not to that extreme, but there's no reason why it couldn't be is to sell. You know, that's because that childcare settings, is that a little bit younger? There's just, I mean, I don't have I actually don't have all those songs in those skills, but we have songs for making circles. And, you know, we do do lots of songs in class, in class time, and that sort of thing, but not necessarily those. You know, like the alphabet song, you know, only because, probably, me, you know, I could get skilled up in that area myself. You know, we used to call it the Play School. So yeah, actually, if someone was building it, start saying, build him up build anything a child? Yeah, there's a song that goes with it. And what I found really interesting was that some educators were just so natural at it, like you could tell they just grew up like that, or were really comfortable with it. Other people would get that certain level of judgment about I can't sing properly, so I won't do it or, you know, that confidence, and they feel like they're being judged by other people, not by the children, because they love it. They know, it's right. What are you saying? No, that's a very interesting sort of reflection on people's, you know, yeah. Well, you know, I tend to think the way I look at it is that you know, and you're right, that the majority of people that I teach, so no, it's best, they don't have any formal music education. Because if you did, then you should be able to teach music, you know, but, so these are people that weren't pretty much not teaching music in in their classrooms, maybe doing a few songs or doing assembly pieces or lattes sort of thing, but not really understanding. You know, I mean, most teachers don't even they can read the music curriculum. They wouldn't have ever had a clue of what some of these things are, like, the the elements of music, you know, they might not know what tambor or texture or you know, even pitch, most of them know what rhythm rhythm are. But that's pretty. That's pretty important. But coming to what you're saying. I think that's a really interesting point. Because, you know, I think you think about the education system and you think, Well, you know, it wasn't the education system that created that well. So that was it that a lot of the time when we as adults think about the education system, you know, we sort of there's a lot of trauma involved in schooling. For for all of us, as adults, we can trace that back to when we were kids. And, you know, sometimes schools are better at telling us what we feel like we're not good at and what we are good at, say, I mean, that I think the education system as a whole has a lot to answer for that. Like, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty nuts. Yeah. And certainly in Scotts perfect world, we wouldn't be doing it the way we're doing it. So that was a nice to be that little. And that's why I got into education anyways, because I knew it was broken. And I'd like to be a crack in the system. And I feel like, you know, this job gives me the opportunity to be a little bit of a crack in the system, because, you know, the kids really look forward to me coming in, even if I'm not taking a lesson to teach might be taking them because they know, this fun stuffs gonna happen, you know, they know that they're gonna have a license to be creative. They know that there's no, no, they don't have to be frightened that they're gonna get something wrong. The only time that happens is if you're playing a game, and they might get out. But that's all it is. Yeah. And they're probably not even aware that they're learning so much through the process through what you're, you know, giving Yeah, I'm thinking that it's that they've been taught to know, well, that's what learning learning should be like. Yeah. And, you know, and being a musician, it's challenging. You know, it's challenging, you've got to, you know, and you know, this yourself, there's this, there's this part, this is Part in music, where you have to grind. And if you don't grind, you don't, you don't get any better. And it's that rote repetition, which, unfortunately, the, you know, there's a lot of schools of thought that don't even, you know, right is like a dirty word universities was when I went to uni, that's for sure. However, that's the way I learned. And prep, perfect practice makes. I was interesting. I'm a great speller. So yeah, I think, I also think that one of one of our problems with people being hard on themselves, it's a cultural thing. So you know, I lived up in the ipy lands, for for a couple of years. And culturally there, you sort of, you stand out if you if you don't sing, because songs or songs are part of their daily life. That's, you know, the stories are all told through song. Like, it has been fun, you know, 10s of 1000s of years. So it's ingrained in their culture. Whereas we have, you know, flip it over to, to us, our urban culture. And, and, you know, the game shows the X factors, the voice and all that sort of thing, then all of a sudden, you know, is everyone that sings being judged, you know, by, you know, by Guy Sebastian? Yeah. That's, I think that's part of where we've got to. Also. Yeah, also, I know, through experience that, you know, kids, like kids like to sing, but sometimes, they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and that might sound like a dying dog, too. But that can really pay detrimental to that, the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids, if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good, because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. And the only way you can do it, you know, if their practice if they're a piano player, and they're practicing a piece and it sounds beautiful, then then not nothing's happening. They're rehearsing they're not practicing. Yeah, that's some of my best singers. You know, I've spoken to their parents and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot. And that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever it is. You can do your voices. That's part of what my studio is still. I'm still experimenting, you know? 50 years old, and I haven't stopped since I was like, 11 years old. I haven't stopped at all. Maybe Maybe there will still be Hi yeah, that's a that's a good question. You know, when I look back, I think, you know, definitely had something to do with my father and seeing a picture of him in his early 20s playing guitar in a band, I still remember the photo. And you know, I listened to music, but there was no, there was no depth. I did like the I did like the hooky, sort of minor stuff, you know, I knew that I liked it, because it had an emotion, like an emotional draw for me, and I knew anything and then these, these these minor keys, and this was the, you know, going to the early 80s. Here, you know, as sort of about eight, you know, 19 ADLs, I would have been eight years old. So, heading towards probably 10. Nine and 10 had some, some pretty big songs out there. I can't even think I mean, I know I used to love. Everybody Wants to Rule the world, but it is, it is. I mean, I remember that when that came out. And that was that was one of those jarring things. My first album was Duran Duran. It was an EP The wild boys EP, I'm not sure if that was my first that was my first album. And my first cassette was seven in the record, Tiger. So Duran Duran, there you go. They had some big minor hooks. And I was right into that. But yeah, my dad taught me a couple of things on the guitar and taught me some shadows. So Apache, and the benches walked around, so bit of surf, sort of style instrumental stuff. So it was the lead guitar. And I just took it from there, I just just didn't stop at a couple of mates, we got together at that transition stage from year seven to year eight, was high school for us. And we played we had this little band going on, and yeah, and then just did not stop from there. So we played those songs and then just kept developing throughout high school. And, yeah, that's how, that's how it started. You know, I can't, I can't pinpoint a particular there been moments that have completely blown my mind. But, you know, it was big becoming invested in music. And by invested in music, I mean, that, you know, when we talk about the first album, or your first cassette, like that, no longer exists. Yeah. So and that was an investment because you needed money to start off with, and however, you got your money back in the day, whether it was pocket money, or, you know, pleading to your folks or whatever it was, you had to there was something you had to do. And then you had to physically, you know, I had to walk down to Kmart, which is a couple of days down the road, go go to the local record store, look through all the staff and say, this is the one that I'm going to buy, take home, and listen to. And that investment in music was was, you know, that's what you get. You're accountable to the music, then you sit there and you look at the artwork, and yeah, play the final say, yeah, that was that was how musics sort of I got involved in music. And yeah, just on that, do you think it diminishes the importance or the value we put on music because it's so accessible now? Yeah, yeah, I do. I definitely do. So there's, there's there's positives and negatives. And, you know, it's such an exciting time for independent artists to be able to release stuff and have it so accessible and available. The I mean, the music industry's it's cutthroat you know, it's intense. And you've got artists now being able to bypass the industry. Yeah, so that's, that's amazing. So for the artists, it's, it's probably pretty cool but on a cultural level, having having that access unprecedented access to music is? Well, it's going to it's going to affect the monetization of artists. Tell me, I know. Exactly. Ah, but yeah, yeah, you've got that. If it's, you know, it's just like saying, hey, if if our roads were made of of diamonds, how precious would they be on your fingers? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, it's it's a it's an issue. It's an issue. Yeah, I can say like, I, as an independent musician, myself, like being able to release music is amazing. But then at the same time, you think, because there's so much there? It's just, you know, will it ever get listened to it? Or will anyone's ever get listened to unless you are within, you know, a big company that can provide stuff like there's just so much stuff out there? And I didn't realize. So, when I, when I did the ARIA stuff. Yes. Yeah. It was such an insight into industry that I'd never had before. And so you know, I remember I remember having a chat to this to this bloke outside outside the toilet at the areas. And he was asking me all about this staffing. I, this is at a this is sorry, at the areas I actually got presented the area at a what was the, what was it called? It was an industry meeting. So it was all the big it was all the CEOs of sonar, Warner, Music, Spotify, all that it was this, you know, huge thing Bob Geldof was there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, chatter was amazing. I said, thank you for all you've done for music. You know, he picked up the award he's going he's a very weighty you're, he's like, you get back to school, tell them all the award should be this heavy. Yeah. But anyway, I was chatting to this guy. And he was saying how, you know, he wished that he continued learning whatever instrument and now that sort of dawned on me that these people aren't musicians, you know, they're business people, and are speaking to another guy, we're sort of moving from one place to the other. And he was talking to me, and he said, Well, you know, congratulations, and all that we're hoping for our first aria for I forget which one it was, was like the big one, like, Song of the Year or something like that. And I'm like, ik you know, who, whose team you're part of, and this is a there was about nine business guys in suits. And so that was Amy sharks team. So who knows? And she actually ended up winning that, so they got it. But I don't even know what they do. What are these guys in suits, they are just like, well, this is that's how I know that this is. This is massive industry. Yeah. And there's something that happens there. I don't know. It's secret. Squirrel. Yeah. Doors, things going on. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's, that's the type of thing that I'd be bad at this. See, that's the thing that I sort of think, on one hand, having, having all the music in the world possible on a platform and letting people decide what they want to listen to, is good, because it sort of cuts that control that the commercial radio stations have because the people make deals with the execs are you give us that much. And we'll play the song four times a day, you know, takes out that like, that's why I love community radio so much because the only stipulation they have is they've got to play. I think it's only 20 something percent Australian music apart from that they can do whatever they like, you know, there's not that nice deal sort of being made. So I've just taken the conversation. I love community radio. Yeah, I think that's it's literally what it is. It's, you know, everyday ordinary people sharing their love and their community and yeah, the people think it's awesome. Yeah, no, you're right. And, you know, and today we have access to community radio from Hundreds and 1000s of community writers Yes, we would be would be ensnared. Yeah. So such an interesting, interesting concept. But yeah, so music is freely available as as we want it. But yeah, the power the Pat, the the actual power of music gets lost within within its within its easy access. You know? So getting back to your area, can you share with us that story and how you got involved and what the award was, and that kind of stuff for people who might not be aware? Yeah, so the story goes, the, there was a couple of teachers at my school who wanted to put me up for a nomination. And so they asked the kids to write some type of thing for for me, and it was voluntary, you know, kids could do it if they thought that I deserved that, blah, blah, blah. So I ended up getting nominated for this for an aria Award, which, which was really, really amazing. Yeah, it was like, awesome. And then it was up to a community vote. So the community had to get behind it. And, you know, I thought, you know, how I was, like, how I had to develop the campaign, which really helped me in my you know, because you're obviously, you know, there's five teachers, everyone's, everyone's an amazing teacher, everyone deserves the ARIA, you know, it's a, it wasn't about that it was just, for me, it was a childhood dream. You know, ever since ever since I started playing in bands and knew about what the area was. I thought, wow, you know, I'd love to win that. And there's funny stories that actually go go there now. Because so, I'm rewind, and I'm a good musician, um, you know, possibly 23 years old playing in bands. And I see some people that I was sort of involved in scene nosing. Getting this aria award? Yeah. Because their band was the super Jesus. Oh, yeah. And I remember watching it that day, and thinking, Oh, wow, maybe have made some real decisions in my musical path. Because I was playing. I was playing surf punk at the time, but I come from, you know, thrash metal. Really high energy. Yeah. angry music. Yeah. Which was, which was, which was cool. And I loved and that's why I did it. And that was the moment where I thought, Oh, maybe I should look at something else. And that was a moment where I signed up to do the stat test for uni. Yeah. And that's how I got to university. And that's how I became a teacher. So, you know, fast forward 2020 years, 25 years, or whatever it was, and there it was in front of me, like a carrot on the stick. And I'm like, Oh, yes, this is a childhood dream. I'm gonna go for it. So what I did is I recorded, I've written this song on guitar, and it was a real flashy guitar thing. And because I thought, I thought to myself, I thought, how could I? How can I get people up? I am one of those people, you know, like, I don't like asking for money, like from people, you know, or your vote. Vote for me vote for me. Yeah. So I thought, how can I do this, which isn't, you know, so I thought, well, what can I give, you know, how can I give something? And so I had this guitar thing that was really, really intense. And so I was able to just chop it up into little snippets. And as I build a Facebook page called riff of the day, yeah. And every day, I post a little bit of a riff, and with a vote for me, don't forget to vote. Yeah. And that's, that's basically, it was pretty popular. There was and that's how, that's how it works. So, you know, and that's, you know, that's how, obviously, the people, the people of this community really got behind me, and that's how I won the Aria. So, you know, it was it was a vote of confidence from the community, which was very, very humbling. Yeah, extremely humbling. So and going to the IRS was just you know a dream come true. Now I've done it now walk that red car. I've done. You know, I can cross that off my bucket list. Do you want to drop some names? Who else do you talk to? There was George Shepherd from shepherd he was he was my buddy. But who was sitting next to somebody really fast? I don't either. We're not listening. We really offended Oh, they weren't getting an hour. But yeah, I don't I don't I just I didn't speak to that many people. Like I was a little bit I say humbled by by everything. Who else did I speak to? I don't know. Yeah. Cuz it was like, everyone wanted to speak to me. Like that key rule rule is like, this was an up and coming out of spec thing. It's like 15 years into care come up to me and shake my hand and rule. I think it's a rule came out. So he shook my hand. And it was like, you know, munching on some Cheetos as you do when you're 15. Right. And he's just won an hour here as well. And, you know, there was like, you know, Troy QSI. Daily, you know, chatting to him at the end of the night, but we weren't chatting. We're chatting about school drop offs. Funny, Murray wiggle. He's gold. So yeah. And all the like, it was easy to be involved in meeting all the wiggles who were all there. So but Mary's Marisa, you know, he's a great musician. Yeah. He, he looks after these lads called the DZ death rays. I think they are. Yeah. And same sort of thing. Right. Yeah. So it was it was a it was just an amazing experience. I was. I was in the I was in the elevator. Oh, I got to sign I got to sign these posters. And, you know, my name was on with all the other ARIA award winners. It was so weird signing, you know, they took me to this vector, which is little room up, stay stays in there. Like, you get a photo. And then, which is the official RFID. And then you sign this and they follow you around with, like beers and stuff like that. Other beer said another beer. Yeah, that's what the arrows are. Like, there's like, every, every five rows, there's an esky. Oh, wow. And it's got like water and beer and champagne, whatever it is in there. And they fill it up. Just like, Whoa, yeah, there you go. This is an insight inside that. I could only because I was gonna say, like, people, I think I remember seeing the footage of you getting like the mayor with your award. And so people were so appreciative because you're literally, you know, bringing the future of musicians to life, you know, you're giving them the passion. And, you know, there's the actual skills, but you know, that love of music, and that appreciation for it is, you know, what's going to, you know, bring on the next generation of performance. So, yeah, you know, I think that's, that's important. Like, and it's, it's, it's the, for me, it's the musical experience, you know, it's the experience that you have with music. So, you know, so anyone listening out there now, you know, if you want to feel that power of the experience of music, you know, think back to think back to when you were 16. And there's some songs you're listening to, like you can you can latch on to memories, that, you know, that have been a part of the soundtrack to your life. That's how important music is. You know, there's not too many people will say, Oh, well, I wasn't really listening to music when I was whatever you know, about that. 1617 is when we start to really sort of capturing but you know, music has been, you know, think about how you felt after the last concert. You've you went to a big concert. Last because how did you feel that? That feeling stays with you for days and days, and then forever? Yeah. As you'll always remember those because there's this shared experience and that's part of the power of music is that it gives us the the the the opportunity to have amazing shared experiences. It's this real energy exchange. So and I tell students well, I used to tell the older students this, but this happens when I teach music anyway, but you I'm on stage. And you know, the energy that you give to the audience comes straight back at you, you know, and it doesn't necessarily matter how many people are in that audience. But you know, you get that energy times, whatever times whatever is close to you, you know, I don't know what it's like to pay. And like a big stadium or anything like that I think the most people ever paid to was about 4000. That's pretty rad. But it wasn't, yeah, the energy exchange was a little bit disjointed, because it was a big stage was lifted up. And it's not quite like, you know, I remember playing and I remember playing at the Tivoli in the Thrash band, and there were literally people running off the bar and jumping into the crowd. And now, we're sort of, I had to play with my back turn to the audience, so I could just push them out a little bit. So give me Oh, I was so cool. Yeah. So and that's, you know, you're in the midst of that energy. Just Just amazing. That's the power of music, you know, you know, music gives us an opportunity to express that energy. And music is energy in itself with sound energy, you know, we just can't see it. But it's, oh, it's there. You're listening to the art of being a mom, my mom, I was. Interesting story, fast forward, just passed the area. And I'm starting to think, oh, what next? You know, I've achieved this massive goal, where am I going? I don't want to go backwards. I don't want to turn into Oh, that was that guy that that was that teacher who won that area. And now, you know, now he's just like a cobweb in the corner. So really made me start to think. And then there was all this all this friction in my workplace as well. And then and say, all that all that stuff. There was a lot of stuff going on. And, and it boils down to that I felt like, you know, the arts were being attacked for being too popular. You know, yeah, it was, it was lit, it was literally, literally, kids aren't handing up their English assignments on time, because they're too involved in your musicals. And it's just like, what, and that's when it that's, and so that started to weigh real heavily on my shoulders. And, and I just went down, down with stemmer, you know, into it into, like, you know, into a really sort of horrible mental position where I wasn't sure what, where I was going, what I was doing, how I was going to combat this. And through that, I ended up I ended up looking into altered states of consciousness and, and meditation, that sort of stuff. And then I came across all these meditation instruments, I didn't even know they existed. So I came across a crystal ball. So I work a lot with digital. In the past, I've worked a lot with digital sound. And there's a thing called a VST, which is literally a virtual instrument. And so I ended up I was looking at this virtual instrument, they had all these meditation instruments. And I'm like, Well, I've never heard of these things before. And then I found this crystal ball, and it's literally a frosted crystal ball, and bigger than your normal salad bowl, and shaped a little bit differently, but it has a tone, pure tone. And I thought, Okay, what's this and I, I listened to one and it just it's one. It's like a sine. It's like a natural sine wave. And I was listening to her and it just, it was still it did not move. It was it's oscillates with itself. Yeah. That that beautiful. And I was like, oh my goodness, what, what is it and I felt I felt amazing. It was like, I'd spent my entire musical career trying to be as fast as I possibly could then never, never stopped to savor what it could be like to be still with a musical note. And it just drew me in and from that moment, Ain't unlike us hooked Yeah, absolutely hooked and two crystal balls together creating whatever how many you want in a room is yeah, it's just outstanding, you know, for me, for me and everyone, everyone would react different because everyone you know musics unique experience and listening to sound as well as a unique experience. So, you know, the person next to you would experience that sound differently. Some people those crystal balls are really activating this seat in the middle of the head, you know? And some people find them you know, they might need to move or whatever. Yeah. So that's what that's what started this journey and then it was you know, gongs, gongs are the opposite gongs are like, like opening a doorway to, you know, a million cosmic frequencies at once. Yeah, it's just like, there's they're everywhere. And, you know, the idea about I found the idea of a sound bath. And I like, I just love the term. It is sound, isn't it? It's like you luxuriating in. I mean, I've always loved I've always loved baths, myself, and sitting back and contemplating life and so forth. But to think that you could do it in sound, I'm like going, is this I'm really excited about it. And I did an online course. And, you know, which was okay, but sort of showed me the ins and outs of of what it's all about, I guess, like the practicalities, the practicalities of it, and your uses for it, and so forth. And then yeah, I just went down that rabbit hole. And I've now managed to bring my guitar into that space. And now I'm starting to, you know, do the sound baths and it's so cool. It's so cool. Like it is. It's, it's like unbridled creativity, you know, you really just you, you have to have a plan. Like, you know, like, like my life. You know, the plan is just there. It's not like, it's not like, I'm gonna, something bad's gonna happen if I don't follow up. But the plan is there that that's the, that's the plan is planned. But be. Yeah, it's so, but yeah, once you once you're in that zone, it's, it's so cool. And you know, it's such an individual experience, it can take, you know, you can take one person on this fantastic imaginative journey through time and space. And for others, it can, you know, it can give them the space to release emotions or whatever they, they need to. So, there's certainly been a lot of that at at the sound bars as well. And like I say, to people, you know, I'm going to fill this room with sound frequency, you know, the sound frequency itself is pretty neutral. You know, it's, they're just their frequencies there sound frequencies, there's research on how they affect the body. But if you want to, you can release negative thoughts outwards, into those frequencies. Or, you can allow those frequency if you are really enjoying them, and then they're, you know, they're turning you on or whatever, you can just let that evening and, and, you know, really switch on, which is, you know, it's just, it's just amazing. And you know, we've, the thing is with, that's the way that I listen to music as well, you know, that's, you know, if there's something that I let in, I'll let it in, but if the sub A lot of the time, it's letting out. Yeah, particularly. Yeah, you know, when I particularly like, you know, young kid listening to thrash music, you know, pretty, pretty upset with the state of the world. And the inequalities of the world and getting out all that angst with, with heart hard, fast, heavy music was the same type of thing. Just now, now, everything's a little bit different. And yeah, it sounds pretty cool. But, you know, along the way, I've learned so much about sound. And, you know, sound is one of those. It's one of those things, it's like, yeah, it's like gravity. It's always there. You know, very rarely do you sit in silence. And if when you are in silence, I swear you can hear something anyway, this this just the sound that's always there. Yeah, listen, that's just my brain tinnitus. But you know what I mean? Like, it's just the sound was very rarely get solid solids yet like proper silence. Yeah. And yeah, sound is Saturday, we said the weird thing about sound this is. So sound needs the human ear to be to perceive it. It's like if a tree falls in the forest. Now, is it too soon to make a sound? You know? Yeah, like I said no, because I produced it produced sound waves. And but if there's nothing to receive the sound waves, then it doesn't make a sound. So it's gonna be relative isn't it is it is really interesting. I love that one. It's like, that's, yeah, it's pretty cool every thing that I've done it always everything always comes back to music, you know? And, yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful way to live your life isn't to have that sort of piano reflect on it like that? Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, it is. It is. And, you know, it's funny, because you always ask myself, what is it about music? You know, what do what do i What is it that I want to get out? But you know, and you know, the answer I always, always came up with even at since I was a kid is that I want people to feel the way I feel when I'm listening to music. I want as many people to feel that because such a good feeling. And, you know, and it just reminds me of that. That, you know, it's like, you're holding up, like, a mirror to the universe. So that it may know itself better. But so that's that, you know, that's, that's that style of thinking? That I think that for me, you know, music. That's That's what music is? It's pretty profound isn't it is. And you sort of think something was simplified at all, but something so simple? Like I said, it's with us all the time, every day. That it's so he has so much meaning. Yeah, well, music is simple. Like, you know, and this is the thing, this is what my my job is to try and tell teachers that think that they don't know anything about music, it's like, well, you know, you only think you don't know anything about music. Because a lot there's a lot of a lot of people have hijacked music and music education. And they want to make it smarter than what it needs to be they want to make it more academic than what it needs to be. Doesn't need to be academic at all. You know, you don't need academics in music, you know, but there are people that like to what's the word? Academic, non academic, academic, I want to do that to everything. And you can, it can break something, you make it so inaccessible. To make it accessible, and I know that I know that the education departments had trouble with that, you know, trying to make the try and make your subject because music can be more complicated than physics. Yeah, of course. How complicated Do you want to it? Yeah, you can make it as complicated as you are. And this never stops. It's like a fractal. It's, you know, and it's exciting the other way it can be as simple as a drumbeat going. Yeah. Yeah, it can be as complex as the most weirdest harmonies in combination with strange texture. B, you know, there's, it's endless. It is it is it's like Yeah, yeah, find the ocean. Yeah, we've only we've only explored what is it 5% of the ocean or something like that. It's the same. It's the same with music. So I didn't and now we're finding sound. You know, I was reading an article from Stanford University the other day where you know, they're using acoustic technology and sound technology to pack heart cells into places where they can't that's the only technology that they that they can use. Yeah, they're also using sound as a deterrent for malaria carrying mosquitoes they found that there's sound that I heard Yeah, we'll send frequencies and frequencies Yeah, well, they do they use for dogs for like making them stop barking frequency collars. We can't hear it. Yeah. As you get those big, I mean, you've got those big Sonic Weapons was actually about to say yeah, see that's breaky. It's sort of freaky, it's freaky. So but, you know, people, I think people need to understand that, you know, from my understanding of what those those things are, is they're just very fucking loud speakers. Yeah, right. And this so loud that they're they are extremely and they're very focused on like, point them. So, you know, that's how they're using them and so that, you know, they can point it at you and say, Hey, you get out of it, and it will be so annoying and loud that you move. Yeah, because there's nothing else you can do. I sort of the way I mentioned, I don't know, this sounds terrible. I'm sorry to be little war. But you know, when surprised would seem really high and the glass would shatter. That's how I was imagining that like, like, just send this this frequency through and, and things would just go just like, explode. Yeah. You know, there's nothing to say that doesn't, you know, they couldn't have that power is, you know, if you could do it if the sopranos could do it. Wow. But yeah, you know, there's, there's all types of research to say that, you know, if you think about, think about things having frequency, and if you think about harmonic resonance, so for those people who don't know how might resonance is, you can take a particular notes, say, let's say for example, my crystal balls are great. So I could record a crystal bowl, and I can then apply it and record it. And if I play that, recording back to that crystal ball, it'll start making its own sound because it is resonating with the frequencies in the room. It's, it's unreal, it's unreal. It's just, well, it's just like, if you have guitars, if you have guitars, in your in your and you play the sound of a string loud enough, the strings will start to resonate. So like if I had my singing bowl? Yeah, like dinged it. Another one, if it was the same, would start to go. Possibly, possibly. Yeah. It's probably because it's because of that. Because of the bowl, it probably needs a little bit more to get it right. Like if it was bigger, it would go but it's because it's small. And it's contained. Yeah. But it might, you should try it. But that's how money, let's get this harmonic resonance. Like that's a thing. Just got a cold shiver. We go. It's amazing. So if you think about that, and if you think about everything is frequency, so my god, so people, like things can literally communicate with each other in a way? Well, that's really interesting, because I was reading an article. I was reading an article the other day, who they're looking into research saying that actually, cells communicate with each other through sound waves. Because it's the fastest way to travel through. It's not like a sound that we can hear. Yeah, it's a vibration. Yeah. So but that vibration, create contains information. There's so much we don't know, there is so much we don't know. I mean, I, I know. And you know, me, I'm sure there's people out there that don't call bullshit. But like, we don't know, we just we don't like anything, you know? And, you know, so where do you think this is gonna take you like, you're on this, this amazing sort of journey of you could go anywhere. It's really, yeah, could I sort of feel I do feel a little bit lost at the moment. Like, I want to, like, I would love to turn this type of thing into my day job, this exploration of sound because there's probably nothing that really makes me feel like I'm serving my purpose, or being me then offering that sound stuff to people. But then to do that, there's that there's that part of having the other side which is the business sense and, and you know, and looking at that, that that is as in that is like the inner wellness industry space as well so that I'm not particularly good at like, you're good at the creating stuff, so I'm not not 100% Sure, you know, of Yeah, I don't know where it's gonna take me so I'm gonna let it take me wherever it's gonna take me because I know when I started with all this stuff that that felt like that felt like home. It's like, right here we go. You know? Like, I think I've been looking for something like that ever since I started playing. Playing music and you know it was looking for something you it, I've sort of feel like I've found it. Yeah, it's almost like you had to as a, as a beam as a person had to experience something that was really going to challenge you and push up against you, for you to, to make a switch, I suppose and go nuts. This isn't right. And to go into that, like, almost like you had to come to a head. Yeah, yeah. And I'm bringing my hands together, like, you know, something had been had to happen. Yep. For that shift to take place. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, at a deep, and then there was the highs. And then there was the lows. And then there was the piecing back together. With with, with a new, a new outlook, I guess. So that's, it's been it's been such an such an interesting journey. Up to this point. And yeah, like, I'm really interested to see, you know, how well this type of this type of thing is going to be received, like, in our community, at the moment is really positive. So you know, I can see I can see it a lot of space for growth. It's such an interesting thing, you know, coming from, you know, playing in punk bands and all that sort of stuff. You know, which I'd still do if, you know if if there were the right people. But having people rock out with some blankets and pillows and beanbags. You know, maybe something that cover the eyes, and lay down and listen to music, like really listen to music is phenomenal, just like that, that concept. I love it so much. I mean, it's great to go out to venue and go and see live music and feel that high energy stuff. But it's also great to go within and to feel, you know, it's high, low energy, high energy stuff as well. And then there's also some more calming sort of energies. That yeah, so it's so amazing. And so mind blowing. It's a it's a thing, but yeah, I'm not glad that you had to go through what you had to go through to get there. But I'm very glad that you got that. Yeah, I mean, yeah. You know, I'm a very much very much, you know, you're gonna philosophize about, you know, the good and evil in the world. And you're sort of saying, Well, okay, well, there, there's, there can only be evil, if there's good, and there can only be good if there's evil. Otherwise, there's no any of that stuff. So yeah, I think that's that, that is sort of that. Yeah. You touched on earlier about having your studio. You only needed it since you became a parent. Yeah. Tell us about your your four lovely boys. Yes, sir. Thank you. I mean, incredibly exciting place to be. Yeah. Yeah. So my four boys are very energetic. They are very, very inquisitive. And they are very physical. Yeah, as well. So they can all play music. But whether they'll go down the music path, is there no, no one's chosen that as their main thing yet. That's so how do you feel about that? Well, I don't know. Well, you know, the eldest of 15. So I didn't really start playing. And, like, seriously until I was 12. My 12 year old can play as good as I could when I was 12. But, you know, whether he chooses, you have to have that. I mean, I had my friends, my friends were playing so I played, you know, so whether he can manage us to surround himself with other people that are thinking the same, which is going to be pretty difficult in the current state of music. In in the mount it's just that seems to be we were at this really high about two or three years ago, and now and now. Something's dropped out. And, and musics really taken a backseat and there's a there's a few there's definitely a few people in it in the education scene here that sort of don't see the importance of music and have seen that just sort of slip out from under us, which is quite significant. But you know, I'm not gonna blame it on the schools. You know, it's just it's just We'd have a cultural thing happening. What the way I sort of equation if you've got a town of our size, how many 1000? What are we got? 35? Last time I'll do is 2525. Okay, I'm getting excited. And we don't, yes, that's yours. We don't have a music shop anymore. You know, that just to me shows that we're the level of importance that, you know, that we play we're placing on it, you can't even go in the shop and get your guitar really strong anymore. You know, it's, it's a tough one, that one, you know, knowing the ins and outs of that business. And business business is, you know, we're talking about capitalism earlier. I know that's, you know, you can't give, give money away or, you know, lose money and just keep being a charity. But I just thought how can we not have a music show? You know, just Yeah. Really, it was it was? Yeah, it was heartbreaking for me to I mean, I remember looking at the Facebook posts and thinking, you know, it was almost like, lost, lost somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Had that had that feel about it? And because, you know, to me, the importance of, you know, a place like that is is, is for community. Yeah, but I understand, I understand. I mean, I fully understand what happened and why, you know, they had to shut up and close, but who knows. But that's not so bad community. Like we'd always put out if we had a gig, we put our posters up in there. We had our, like, my albums with Assange there. I could bring the guys when I, whenever I had trouble with our PA, I'd be like, Michael, why can't I get it to turn on? You know, they were just they're not just think. You know? Yeah, it does makes me sad. I mean, at the end there are they're all like students of mine. Yeah. Right. And yeah. You know, I've also, you know, they're not the first students to, you know, work there. So it gave them a bit of a rite of passage. I know that likes because you said like to do work experience there. And that's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a shame, but I feel I feel that, you know, there's 25,000 people here, but musics just not big enough to sustain that type of thing. You know, but it's all goes back to how much importance do we want to put on music? You know, so, you know, with, with my boys, I know, I know, it's not right, to force anything onto them, because it's nothing forced onto them by Daddy's going to be cool. Not once they like once they hit the teenage years. Yeah. So they played in a band when they were like, in year five. They did like a talent show and are really, really good. Did you watch it? Yeah, they're very good. To me when I watched I don't know if it was just like a proud parent thing. But they made it look so bloody effortless. I must say your your kids doing things? Like very natural. And like, No one. No one was there when I worked with them for, you know, maybe five weekends in a row of working on this Boulevard of Broken Dreams, whatever. Some yeah, there's Boulevard of Broken Dreams, I think it was and put the staff that like the the work and effort that went into making that look like that was huge. You know, it wasn't that that was this easy thing. It was it was difficult. There was a lot of that when we're talking before about, you know, grit, there was a lot of grit. And that was really tired, grumpy children at the end of those sessions. So, you know, I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the experience for music because they didn't get to perform and yeah, but they didn't win. Say they won. But yeah, I think they made it look so easy that it just like, Oh, these guys. They're good. But so yeah, that's it's interesting. But, you know, with anything with with kids, you've got to let them find find it themselves and find that passion rather than live out. Your passion, you know, that lands on last thing. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that parent that is living through their children. I don't want to be that person. So they can, they can do whatever they they like and do they listen to you like and value what you tell them? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I try until you know, Alex plays the bagpipes, right? Oh, yeah. And I think he chose that because neither Ben or I have any experience. Yeah. We kept doing this for years. I'd be like, Oh, do you want to play? You know, play the piano, and then be like, join play guitar? Nah, I don't want to do that. Now all of a sudden popped up the bagpipes. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny because um, You know, I've spent a fair bit of time with with the kids lately, due to COVID. And due to, we went to went to Melbourne, the other the other week, just me and the boys drive up in the morning and drove back in the evening. And it's funny, you know, when I'm with them, the conversations that we have can be quite intense, like, the other day, we were driving a football, and the conversation was about how everything came to be, you know, it was that deep. Yeah, it was, you know, okay, so science says there was a big bang, what was before the Big Bang? That's that type those types of questions. Yeah. You know, and that's the type of, I love having those conversations with the kids the whole big, expansive, mysterious, inquisitive style of conversations where we sort of just riff over things. You know, I was having having a chat to one of the elders the other day, and he was talking about and, you know, he gets through that stage where, I mean, schools always push your career path, and what do you want to be and all this sort of stuff. And he was sort of riffing riffing on that. And I said to him, do you want to do you don't want to? Because he's going to be say, said, like, you know, what? Would you rather? Would you rather me be a millionaire? Or would you rather, and be like an asshole? Or would you rather me be the guy that people come up and shake their hand says back now he's a good bloke? And I said, Well, I can't say is that clear? Cap? Yeah, you know, I can say that. You should think about, you know, what you want to do in the world by asking yourself? What type of contribution can you make to humanity? And if you can answer that question, then that's going to put you on the right path to where you want to go. Because that's sort of you know, that's what it's all about. You know, so you could, you can become a millionaire doing that, or you can become a millionaire, being self centered and thinking, it's all about me, and just wanting to climb the ladder and step on whoever I need to decline that letter, wherever I'm going, you know. But at the end of the day, you know, you got to be happy with who you are, and, and what you're doing in the world. So, yeah, they listen to that side. That's a lot. I love that sort of stuff. They may not listen to me when I say you dirty, go and have shower, please. Yeah, it's time for bed. Or we just said he's ready. You know, they might not listen as much, but they certainly listened to those big questions, but they don't. They go off and they ponder, yeah, that sort of thing. And so I'm really impressed that particularly they do that. So that's, that's really good. And, you know, even my youngest, we talk about all different types of things. He's, he's, he's into wondrous things. So you know, if there's a great sunset, I'll call him out or so we're gonna go and have a look at it. We've been what we've been looking at how, you know, I mean, I can't because, I mean, the weather's shitty, but it's rainbow season. Yeah, you know, and been looking at the angle of the eyes compared to wherever the rain might be to the sun. You can you can predict where these rainbows are gonna come and then you can see them before they even arrive. Yeah, and we've been, you know, get excited. Over there. Is that is that is that going to turn into a rainbow? Yeah, is if you can, that's that's pretty cool. So I love doing that type of thing. You know, there's really really sporty so they're, they're very focused on sport. And I think you know, my wife's very, very that was her type of upbringing as well country sport. Where I was city kid, so I was into music and then hanging out with my mates and being hoodlums. There's plenty of that going on in the country. Yeah, there is there is bad The twins have got a year before they get a license. So yeah. I'll have I'll have less to worry about if they're more like their mother. stories with you from Ben. Yeah, So is it important to you that your boys see you as more than I don't say just dad, because, you know, you're not just you do a lot of other things is important that your children say that do you feel? I think I think if we talk about, I think if we talk about contributing to society, if there's one thing that I would like them to do is to, you know, contribute to helping others. Your positive. So, that's something that's important that they see me being that, that positive change that you want from other people, you know, and doing all those those things that, you know, that you put in being like a helpful client, you know, all that sort of thing. That's important to me, they see that and they take that bet on all those positive aspects to life, I guess, not worried about, you know, often think about, you know, winning in our head is that, how does that how does that how does that impact the kids, you know, they streamed it live in their classroom and all that sort of stuff. You know, because I don't put much emphasis on on awards, you know, for them, and grades and that sort of thing, because it's not really about that. But there I am winning this big award. Yeah. How does that how does that how does that factor in NSO competitive? So I don't have the answer to that. But it is something that I have thought about, like, ah, yeah, wow. I wonder how that's going to impact them. But I guess also, if they see how you deal with that, too, like, they don't see you wandering around the streets going, Hey, look at my art, you know, what I mean? Like that you can achieve something and receive something and be rewarded for your work, but not make a, you know, a song and dance about us? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have the odd conversation about how like, it's the best qualification ever. Looks good. I thought I can I can, I can literally argue to anyone about music now. What do you have in our particularly music education? Yeah, there's all these people that are way more trained than I am in music, education. They don't have an art. Here we are saying how modest I am. So always a joke. And it's always it's always it's always good fun. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's important. You know, I want them to be I want them to be good people. And, yeah, I want to, yeah, I want them to make positive contributions, I think, you know, it's, it scares me that the world is so messed up. And that they, they are going into, they're going to grow up into a world that needs action. We've all we've all the, you know, all the crappy things that has been done to it. And, you know, it's still being done to it, you know, so, I'd love for them to be part of the solution of whatever that is. And I don't think shooting off to Mars is the solution. But yeah, but they're the types of things like humanity actually needs to look after each other and, you know, get back to relationships and don't get political. But, you know, we vote reverse voting in the Labour government and labor is for the people. I think there's this big change about, you know, looking after each other, you know, social housing and looking after elderly and childcare and like, just getting back to basics. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, there's a Yeah, yeah, there's a and there are a lot of there are just a lot of systems that, that aren't working, you know, in our society. And I think they need I think they, there's a lot of systems that need overhauls and they need to read they need rethinking? Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's so many, and, you know, if we, if we went into that mindset, you know, if of of looking after each other and humanity and relationships and not perpetuate the classes, which, you know, I believe that schools will perpetuate classes, you know, these people are going to go off and have these topics Little jobs in the majority of you probably the in the middle here, and then some of you fail and be down the bottom. And, you know, you'd be delegated to not having a job or having really low wage or whatever it is, you know, we can patch right that in the school, there's no need to do that, if we focused on relationships, and we were looking after each other, and that would be less likely to happen. Yeah, that's, that's pretty scary. That, you know, that that's literally meant probably begins before, but that's, you know, where people learn how to treat each other, and how, where they're going to be in the world. And that's a difficult thing to shake. If someone already thinks that they're wherever, you're not going to change from that. Yeah, I mean, any of us can think back to school. And, you know, like, once it's over, you've only got those, those bits and pieces that stick with you, you know, the rest of it sort of just falls away, you know, didn't matter. You know, it didn't matter. It didn't matter who was popular. It didn't matter what you learnt in geography, you know, but what mattered was how you felt. And that's what sticks with you. So oh, shoot at school. So did you have a good time? I feel good, right? Yeah, yeah. I failed. I did school at the end of year 11. First time, I went back and did the 12. But anyway, did shoot. I found music and they, they found easy. They should be telling people Yeah. Well, it's important to know, no, it's actually important. Because, like, if I had thought that, oh, my god, I gotta do music. I must be crap. If I had thought that, then I wouldn't have the life. You know, I just had the foresight to know that I was actually good at music, but I just didn't want to do what they wanted me to do. You know, I didn't. I wasn't interested in theory, because that's not what that's not what was, I was inquisitive about. I was inquisitive about the skill set. And I was inquisitive about how I could get better at playing my instrument. That's all I wanted to know. Yeah. And, you know, and I was a guitar player, so that that theory, stuff didn't have didn't bounce off me very well. And it was taught like shit, oh, my God. You know, theories theory is not very boring at all. But the teachers continue to teach it in such a boring fashion. It's actually really exciting theory is really musical theory is really, really exciting. But it's, it's, it's very, you know, you've got special teachers out there that can do it beautifully. But that's not how I was taught. So I just didn't listen and probably didn't go to class and that sort of thing. So that's how that's how it is, you know, so it was one of the, like I said, it's one of the reasons why I became a teacher to be because, like, I knew something had to be wrong with music, or I'm sorry, something had to be wrong. We let go because I was, I knew I was good at music. There was I wouldn't listen to my English class because I was too busy looking at the glossy pages of guitar magazine then again, same music and like, yeah, I just knew that that that wasn't me. That that was the system. Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah. And I was just ready to give the whole world the middle finger then. And, and I didn't went up and got an apprenticeship and yeah, it just took me a little while to get back to I just need to spend my days you know, doing stuff and dreaming about songs. Yeah. So yeah, I drink Oh my God, when I get home, I'm gonna I'm gonna write this song. It's been in my head all day. But I wouldn't do it. But it was it was in my head. Yeah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom. I also name and so when I talk to my moms on this show, we talk about this thing called mum guilt. So this idea that mums should exist for their children, and if they do something for themselves, they should feel guilty about that or they should feel bad if they don't think do things right and bring that in air quotes based on you know, society's expectations of what a mum should be when management. And I've been like asking deaths then. Do you have a Thoughts On a thing? Is there a thing of dead guilt? Do you experience those sort of emotions of You know, the pressure is on you as a dad, to whatever roles in your family, you've got to fulfill that. And if you don't, you know, how does it make you feel? Is that something that you've sort of never encountered? Um so I would say that I've never encountered dad guilt. But I've definitely encountered husband guilt. You know, it's a I know, I know, my wife is relentless in what she does around the house. You particularly washing is huge, because yeah, it was it was a big family. It's just It's endless cycle and you live in Mount Gambier, and there's no way to dry it and that sort of thing. So there's always washing hanging from the wherever, yeah, it's like a cave of washing all the time. So you know, there are times there are times where, you know, I think, oh, maybe I should pitch in there a little bit more, and that sort of thing. So that's it. But not as a parent, there's nothing, there's no, there's no, I don't feel, you know, I think I do as much as I can say, and then when I do as much as I can, as much as I think I can, that's probably a better way to explain it. So then I don't feel guilty when I'm out doing my own thing. Yeah. And also know that the important that like, see, it's a you know, you have to sacrifice your time, every now and then to do things for yourself, and you have to sacrifice time to do things for your kids. And, you know, time time is. Okay, and you're gonna get to this because you posted a really interesting post today about time or Yeah. Well, that's the time is three, but how do you spend it? Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, you talking about the quote that I posted? Yeah. Like it read that book. Yeah, the time is precious. Yes. Yeah. It's pretty cool. I love the quote from that book of the, the, the, the Emerald Tablets, and, and, you know, it's like, time does not move. But yet we move through time. It's like, whoa, that's pretty cool. You know, and, you know, we exist as events in time, our consciousness exists it as events in time. But yet, all time is at once. It's about Yeah, so it's, it's such a mind blowing time is mind blowing. And which is, this is the thing. So, you know, when we talk about music, and we talk about rhythm. So rhythm is just fractions of time divided. Okay. And then if we keep going, and we keep dividing and dividing and dividing, dividing, divided by the value, that we get pitch, and then pitch and how fast how fast, you do want to play with the sound waves, because you know, and it's like, and then you keep going, going, going, going, going, you'll get light. And so, you know, so that's, that's the thing, because quantum physics, this is a thing, like when we talk about light frequency, you know, we talk about sound frequency, we're talking about how fast things are vibrating. And, you know, so it's, that's pretty, pretty interesting. I love that sort of stuff is so cool spins. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, part of the reason why I've reposted that is is, you know, something that we really have to be mindful of, and I have to remind myself all the time, is the amount of distractions. You know, it's like, it's like, we almost live in a society that is just distractions, everything's a distraction. So you would have be, whether it be on TV or on your phone, definitely the Doom scrolling is a distraction, but it's not just the phones, it's, it's like, it's, it could be it's your job, it's whatever it is distracting you from me, you know, distract me from being present. And we're coming back to the relationship stuff before just being present with you know, and we're all guilty of, of being distracted while while a loved one wanted us. And, you know, we were so into it, we're into a rabbit hole. We're like, well, hang on, don't interrupt me because I'm so into this distraction. So, you know, I've been thinking about distractions a lot and being present and you know, and that fact that you can't, you know, you can't get you can't get that back. You can't get that time that being present with somebody. If you're fully there with somebody and you know who Oh, that person is, you know, you can, you know, that moment is going to be as precious as I said we're going to be. But if you're distracted, then you know, that moment. There's lost. Yeah. So and that's it and that you can't get that target time back. Yeah. Yeah, you can't get it back. It's gone. So, but you can be there with it when it's happening. And that's a that's a, that's such a, you know. That's they, that's what they should be teaching in schools. But instead, instead of my kid came home the other day, and he goes, Dad, that I learned something that at school, I'm like, Oh, what do you learn? He goes, if I have my left hand in my hoodie, I can actually be on my phone in the middle of the class and the teacher. Right? It was Yeah. And misaligned even sees and I'm like, Wow, you did learn something today. You know, it's like, yeah. So But isn't it great that I that now you're literally in the trenches? Now you're teaching the teacher? I'm gonna say teaching the teachers, you're sharing your experience with it? Yeah. Yeah. And allowing that to change it from the inside. Yeah, it's the ultimate sort of Gotcha. Isn't it? Like, haha, I'm right here now. Yeah, doing this, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it was, it's, it's, it's, you know, we talk about, you talk about imagination. And if you, I was reading, I heard quote, the other day of something he was about, you know, if you're imagining something, you're literally bringing it into existence. So it's like a movie for the premiere of a movie. So just like that ARIA thing came into existence, you know, me being a crack in the system, sort of manifested over time, because that was where, you know, your life had some intellect. So if you have positive thoughts about about where the future could be, you know, then most more than likely, you're gonna end up, you know, in that in that scenario, some one way or another. Yeah, it just seems to be like that. But if you're if you're always, you know, negative, and you have that negative, and I was like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna have anything after this finishes and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's the type of thing you sort of manifest and then all of a sudden, you don't have anything. Yeah, you make your reality happen. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. It is in positive ending, it is. You know? And, yeah, so yeah, that's, that's the way it is, there's always there's always someone that's going to have an easier path. There's always someone that's going to have a tougher path. Yeah, I'm going back to when you had to have the twins? And how did your sort of concept of yourself your own identity change when you became a dad? When I think back to those hazy times, it is a bit of a haze. We don't know what it was like to have one kid. So you know, it was always too. And. And, you know, it was just asking about Gambia, so there was no, there was no real like family network that was able to be here. So it was very tiring. And it was very, I don't think the concept of myself changed at all. One thing that I wasn't ready for is like, when my wife was pregnant. I remember. I mean, at first, the first looking after looking after this, this unborn baby here, scared that something was going to happen, you're scared that, you know, eat the wrong food, or whatever it was. We actually got a phone call from the doctor 20 weeks into the pregnancy, and it was something's something's happening this, we've got some results that are that don't look very, very promising. That's like the chromosome test. And so we had this conversation about, you know, what, what would happen if if this was the case, you know, and so and it was, it was quite foreign. But we hadn't had a ultrasound yet. And so when we went to the doctor, put on the ultrasound, and he goes, Well, you went for an amniocentesis that needle thing. And the doctor goes, well, here's your baby's heartbeat. It goes on. See this thing? Here's your other baby's heartbeat and he was gone. Oh my God, we've just gone from thinking something's wrong with the baby to we're having another baby. So it was in May. It was that was a roller coaster. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, really exciting. hugely exciting. I mean, I was excited to have twins. But me as a person It didn't change. I felt, I felt great because, you know, because I felt like me. I didn't feel any pressure to be a different person. I was already a teacher, so I had that experience with older kids. You know, I wasn't much of a colicky sort of guy, you know, sort of like the girls had a baby or something like that. I'd be like, Yeah, I can keep the baby. I still am that guy. I'm still around, you know. But yeah, it was different when when are my own? So you know, I guess you just have so much love for the kids that. I mean, yeah. So it was probably wasn't a thing. My identity probably wasn't much of a thing to me at that time. And that it was just his head down. You know, it was go, it was because it was go all the time. And there was no time to do anything else. But do parenting. Yeah, really. In that time there was work. And then there was parenting. And there's probably a little bit of sport that went on as well. And so there was a lot of juggling between my wife and I and all that stuff. But yeah, I think I remained reasonably intact. I still saw myself as an immature young boy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It probably wasn't until I turned 50. Where I've gone might not be that little immature like 16 year old that you've always thought you'd been even in your 40s. Again, time it's a it's an interesting concept. Like, you just think I don't feel any different to how I've always felt my whole life. But I look different. People think you'd be different because you're getting older, but you just feel exactly the same. Yeah, it's such a weird thing. Yeah, it's yeah, it's still that same inside of your consciousness, you still that same person that you were, you know, you read my report, remember, read my report, when I was in primary school, still, they still that kid, probably distract the class less. You know, I still got the if I'm in a big crowd that when we have in front of someone who is trying to do something, you know, still feel the urge to distract people because I'm distracted. You know, I talked about distractions before, but my brain is distracted all the time. With whatever. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So when did you then we were able to point to things to sort of sit down with the boys and you're able to get back into your music. So what happened was it was being organic, really. I was just thinking, what? When was it that happened? So the what happened was, it was the first time where as for sort of, we'd bought a house, we bought a cheap house was getting a pretty good wage. And I remember buying a guitar. As a first it was a guitar that I wanted ever since I was a kid. And I had the money to buy it. And it was all systems go and bang, I bought it. That really sparked my, my interest. And then what I did was, as soon as, as soon as that comes back to you, you know, after you've had your head down for so long, and the kids were still, you know, that one, the red one then, and maybe a little bit younger. But you know, but the first six months is head down and get, you know, you're doing literally everything for kids. Yeah, everything except for breathing. Yeah. And I ended up enrolling in this online course at Berklee School of Music, which is orchestrating for film and TV. And that's where I did all my theory chops and all my orchestration skills and everything like that. And I found that, you know, in in looking back on that, that kitten that certainly kept me grounded through that period of parenting with music connected with music, and ended up landing me the job because then I had some sort of qualification behind me. That wasn't just education based. So, you know, that was sort of worked in really beautifully. And then we only had two years before we got the next one. So you know, and then it was head down again. And, you know, I don't remember, like the specifics of that time. I've kept a journal of that sort of stuff. And so, you know, you can look back at those times. I know looking at the videos that our house is trashed, like, you know, as soon as, you know what we had for under four under four, definitely for under five anyway, the house, you know, and my kids always doing shows and, you know, show means that you have to have a Stage and Stage means you have to have every blanket in the house draped over chairs, and you have to buy the tickets and all that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a theatrical production. That's right. It's funny, it's funny, but it's and all the toys and you just get toys. And then they have a birthday and you get more toys. And they're like, you know, so. I know, when we had that first lockdown. Last, we decided that we tried to start to declutter, and so we had so much stuff that so much stuff. Oh, my God, particularly, particularly out toys and stuff like, that the kids really didn't really play with. There's a few toys they played with. But you know, there were there were definitely like cardboard box kids. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's something that's. Yeah, that said, you know, we talk about capitalism and consumerism. And at the end of the day, all they needed was a cardboard box. It's the old joke, isn't it? Like you give the kid for the Christmas present. And I play with the wrapping bag. Like, it's just like, the whole thing just frustrates me. I was on the airplane come back from LA the other day, and I was thinking, how did it all start? Like, how did it actually start? That that became important? And then what role is advertising played in, in that to get inside people's minds and make people think they need to have this and they have to have this? And you know, I love madmen. That's one of my favorite TV shows. Okay. Some, it's based in the 50s. In the 60s, in New York City, it's an ad agency. And like, you sort of think, when you watch it, I don't know how much of its true. But you think, well, that's why we all want such and such because somebody told us we, you know, I just, I, I wish I would understand more about it. Like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's super powerful psychology, you know? Yeah. And it's all it's all to make make people money. You know, that's, that's what it is. It's about, you know, who wins, wins, wins the most whatever, you know, but, you know, it goes that I don't know how we got how we got there, you know, you know, it's a, it's a strange thing, you can have everything you want, without having that. But, you know, I heard a good story about that the other day, you guys can't put it into context of something about this guy's fishermen. And you know, he did official day, and get all this beautiful fish and take 100 His wife and make love to his wife and his beautiful, beautiful life. And one day, this other, this other person comes along and says, Well, why don't you? Why don't you fish like this. So you can then sell, you take some of the fish, and then you can sell some of the fish. And with that money you buy given so you buy a bigger boat, and then you can do more more fishing and get more efficient, and you can buy fleet of boats, and then you know, and the guy will go, okay, and then what would I do? Yeah, you know, then you can franchise it out. And you can, you know, have an international cooperation, you want to learn what I do? Yeah. But at the end of the day, you know, he already he goes, Why would I want to do that already? Has every you know, because yeah, then what would you do? Well, you can have everything you want, because I've already got everything I want. And that's that type of thing. Yeah. Where we don't think like that, as a society. You know, there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of pressure to be thinking about, and schools do it. So let's do it right at the beginning, what are you going to be when you grow up? Yeah, you know, yeah, it's like, and the answer is, well, I'm going to be me, when I grow up. That's true. That's what I'm going to be I'm going to be me, you know, I'm not defined by what I do. You know, I'm not defined by I'm not defined by, you know, being working in a cafe or that doesn't define me, you know, not even being on stage defines me. I'm just me. You know, there's just trying to put my best self forward to the world and you know, that's, that's not what we teach. We teach, you know, you've got to get this job. If you don't do this, then your options are. Oh, you know, it's like, what complete bullshit. Actually, your options are. What Yeah, whatever you want to make them to be like and Your options can be anything you want to have to school. So that's why I keep telling Alex, like, he's at that point now, like choosing subjects for what you want to be when you grow up. And I just keep reminding him that I found the best job I'd had. Up until recently, only nine years ago. And about three months ago, I found the best job that I've ever had in my life. You know, like, you just cannot expect someone to know at that point in their life, anything about the job they're going to do? Because they haven't been in the world and experience things and seeing what they might like or might not like, yeah, how can you? How can it's all this towards this end goal? I can't, like have these experiences as they're going through, you know, each day be? What are we going to do today? That's going to be great, rather than let's look 30 years in the future and see what's gonna happen there. And you miss out on all this? What's in front of you? Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, the subject selection in my eyes should be about whatever makes you happy. You know, what, what you think you can be, you have the most fun or that sort of stuff. You know, not because all your mates are doing it. But you know, kids want to do that they want to do something, because they might spend that not might not be the best thing for them to do. Not not not in every circumstance. And I my children would literally choose something because they might so doing it. But I'd rather than that I'd rather than go or what is my interests? Yeah. Where does that lie? Like, who cares about if it's going to lead to whatever, because you can do that later anyway? No, it's not. Nothing's finite. Oh, that's it isn't? Yeah. And that's what I did. You know, I 24 years old, or whatever I was did the stat test. So instead of slugging over a year of year 12, I did a two and a half hour test. And you want to know, yeah, I'm a teacher. Yeah. Got a degree? Yeah. Yeah. Now that's like, yeah, I say now, it's just he was saying, What do you want me to do when I grow up? And I'll say the same thing, like, whatever makes you happy, you know, been to financial planner. So he brings that other side of all, we have to have enough my live on? Yes. One that I know that. But you still have to enjoy yourself every day. You know, you have you actually have to have a reason to get out of bed and think What am I going to do today? That's, you know, contribute to the world? And I don't know. Yeah, well, that means I. Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, putting through and that's that thing about being an artist, you know, I'd love to be an artist, but I can't put the food on the table, the practicalities of you have mouths to feed. You know, I could do it. I could, you know, I'd be quite happy living out of like, a tiny house and off grid or whatever, just to start and just doing sound and stuff like that. But you know, when you have responsibilities, responsibilities, when they all move out? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've kind of finished asking the main questions aren't cool. Do you have anything else you wanted to share? around this topic? That's sort of on your mind. Oh, we've been quite we've talked about life universe and everything. We have covered a lot. Yeah. I mean, it's probably important to it's probably important to note that you know, the partnership I have with with my wife is that she's, she's, she's not creative, you know, she's practical. And and that sort of makes for a you know, this stability in particularly in my sort of crazy stinking start type of thing so that's probably something that's that's worth that's worth mentioning that that sort of made it work may will gave me the the license to be creative as well. To know that that practical side of things getting looked after and you know, finances and all that little that type of thing so that's probably something that's that's helped a lot throughout the throughout the child rearing years as well and having you know, and also she's really good at this because the full boys there's so much stuff on and someone's got to be here and someone's got to be Oh, yeah, yeah. And and there's and there's excursion on this day, and then there's a carnival over here and then there's we have to go away for six hours or whatever it is all those types of things. You know, she manages all of that. I don't really want I'd just you know, it's literally Ah, you What's going what's happening? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's been an important thing that's allowed me that's, that's, you know, I'm grateful that that's allowed me to have that. That license to think think out in the clouds and out in the cosmos wherever my brain goes while I'm trying to think of new ways to explore sound and music. So, yeah. Good on it. It to me it takes a team doesn't it? Like it's you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would, you know, it's obviously much. I mean, it has its challenges as well. So you got to gotta acknowledge that it's, you know, that takes work. And it's not just something that sort of is something you just breeze through. Yeah. Conversation certainly change from talking about stuff to talking about children. Yeah. And yeah, that's it. And then you just go to sleep because it's stuffed Yeah. Plenty of times now where sleep before? Tick, they're older children. Yeah. And, you know, they're not too bad though. They're, they're pretty good at getting themselves to sleep. But they say teenagers have a completely different body clock. Yeah, they do. They designed. They're designed to, they're designed to and this is, again, you know, this SSID is strange. But yeah, teenagers are designed to get up later and go to go to sleep later and get up later. Yeah, that's what they're there's Cayden rhythms. That's what they're designed to do. Who knows what that's for? I don't know what that's for. I read any research. This is the thing, right? Like, this is the I was reading about this the other week. Because same thing, Alex is up, I go to bed, and he's up for like, 14, it was up to me. And it's like, what special pair I have these kids got that were stifling, because we're making them get up and go to school at eight in the morning. Yeah. What are they supposed to be doing with this? Well, you know, if you think about the way I like to think about these things, is that, you know, if humans have been around for like, who knows? Like, I'm gonna just pull out 100,000 years, you know, we've spent the last, you know, say 90 90,000 years in this evolving as humans like, that tribal sort of situation. And what were they what were the what were teenagers? Doing? Yeah. What is their role late at night, up until about 12 o'clock, when someone else might have taken over from whatever they were doing? Yeah, keeping the community doing something. Who knows? I'm just guessing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then we've just gone shook. Yeah, yeah. Everything we have. And we've, we've, we've, it's good. The cookie cutter, you know? And, you know, but it's funny, because, you know, we look, you look back to Pink Floyd the wall. And that's what that was all about, you know, and we're still I mean, we wrote a musical about Mark back, we wrote a musical about that, you know, and we wrote a musical about, you know, music had been ousted in society. And if you were caught playing music you'd be asked to do to wastelands. And, you know, and that all came from the psychological damage that this the leader of the community had as a child. Right. And that's pretty deep in US. Classic. It's classic. Yeah. It was, it was it was a classic show will well, quite intense about, about the system and the education system. And, you know, and the way that sometimes it gives, it also gives people interesting positions of power as well. And they might not always be the right person for that particular role that they're doing. And, you know, and everyone, everyone listening would have had that experience in schools, you know, whether, you know, whether it was a teacher, or somebody else but someone that was just abusing their, their power. And that's another interesting thing about because they're the school models in the world where the kids actually choose Is the employment that happens that that the school including the principal and everything that yeah, Sudbury schools? Yeah. And they don't have to study anything. They can spend their time playing video games if they choose where are the sky? And I don't know if there are any in Australia or not say, wow, there's interviews with schools and so some kids are works and doesn't work for all kids. But yeah, see, that's the thing isn't nothing's going to because there's not a one size fits. It's not a one size fits all. Yeah, well, you know, yeah, like, yeah, yeah. So So were you able to use your platform as like, writing these musicals to, to sort of I don't want to say we're putting ideas into children's head, but you were you were getting your ideas across of your thoughts of the schooling system and challenging and perhaps getting the kids to think about things a bit differently? Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Probably didn't think of it like that. But yeah. You know, that. What are we going to tell the kids? No, we wanted. So what we wanted, what we really wanted, when we did our musicals was that we wanted to, because I was sick of seeing these musicals that were meant for adults, you know, they were and you just see kids playing out our roles. And it's like, Well, it'd be, it'd be much more appropriate if kids could play kids roles. And what we wanted to do was empower kids in the musical. So the heroes, we're always going to be the kids, the kids save the day. And then all three musicals that we write kids save the day, because it's empowering for the kids. And they are, you know, most of them are playing kids. There's some kids that play on this, because you can't get around that. So that was the main thing. But yes, we were talking about, we're talking about issues that that we liked to talk about, that we were passionate about, you know, and the first one was the education system. The second, the second one was the earth. Yeah. And it was built around this story about some, some indigenous people were talking about the effects of uranium mining in Central Australia. So it was built around that idea. And then the third one was a multi storey development going to be built on top of this beachfront. And the kids are worried about their Lou's gonna lose their fish and chip shop. So and of course, there was a local environmental problems as well. And it was all about plastic. And that's the stuff. So we had stuff that we were sort of really passionate about, we wanted the kids to know about. And we wanted, you know, we wanted them to know that this is this is this is the world you growing up in. And there's no reason why you can't be a hero in that world. And that's sort of where we giving them the eight ships of agency that they can have an impact, even though in in the world set up of the adults are in charge, and the adults do everything. But the kids actually, they have so much power that they can, you know, bring? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, literally the kids, the kids are the future. So, I mean, you know, and we're stuffing up their world. Yeah, I mean, seeing Whitney Houston, yeah. But she was right, she was in school rock, Jack Black says that the staff, you know, teach them well and let them lead the way. Frequency Fridays, every second Friday, I'm going to be offering some type of sound bath at the inner Sanctuary Collective and be super reasonably priced. And the idea is to build a community around sound, which is when price gets so reasonably. And there'll be different things. But at the end of the day, you know, the themes are just there for a framework, you can come for any type of experience. I like that. I might have a, I might have a stillness theme where everything is going to be a bit still or might have an electric theme or everything's going to be electric. You just see where it takes you. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. That's, you know, I think that for it to happen, I need to I have some consistency. So you know, try and offer it. Yeah, every fortnight. Yeah. And yeah. And if people want to find out which fortnight so you're just hitting me up on Instagram is the best thing to do. So, yeah, I'll put the links in the show notes. Yeah. today. Thank you so much for coming on, Scott. It's been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed this chat. We've gone to some deep, interesting places, and I've really enjoyed that. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. My pleasure. Have a lovely day. You know, just have a feeling. Yeah, let the conversation sort of late itself. So yeah, very grateful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

3 Elena Zima Russian painter 3 Article # 30 June 2023 My name is Elena Zima. I'm an artist. I live in Moscow. My mother dreamed that I would learn to draw. So through me she tried to realize what she herself was not available in childhood. She sent me to an art studio at the age of 6. I was good at it. Perhaps painting is the only thing that I was good at as a child and brought only positive emotions. As a teenager, I studied with the best artists. But at the same time, it was considered impossible to "become an artist" in the family and in society. This is not a profession, but condemning yourself to a poor life. So I went to study and work in a completely different direction. I graduated from the Faculty of History and Philology and went to work in the media. But wherever I was, I was always drawing. People noticed this and often asked to draw something for them. Orders began to appear, then I realized that I could earn more by painting than by working in a magazine. As a result, I quit and began to look for my own style in painting and develop as an artist. I paint in the classical realism and in the style of magical realism. I use magical realism to show the secret life of nature and objects. Every painting has an additional artistic layer: different reality, other life of objects and their history. Just like in childhood, looking at clouds, we saw different shapes. The same way the shadows in the foliage of the trees could fold into a shape of a person. The purpose of my art is not just to depict the outer shell of things but to reveal the inner world and personal history of objects. I have not big family: myself, my husband, our ten-year-old daughter Anna and a cat. My family is my main characters in my paintings and they often serve as models for my future artworks. They help me and inspire me. Well, except for those moments when they complain that I like painting more than them. My workday at the moment looks like this: I get up at 6:30 in the morning, see my daughter off to school, spend about an hour on myself (breakfast, checking email and social media), then I go up to my studio (I'm lucky - my studio is on the third floor of my house) and work on a painting until about 2 pm. I have lunch. If it;s not a busy day, I might go out for a walk. Then my students come into the studio and I give lessons. In the evening I help my daughter with her homework; we talk, do something about house, and have dinner as a family. Of course, this is an example of a perfect schedule where everything goes according to plan. But quite often the schedule changes: we have to take a painting to an exhibition or go to a colleague's exhibition opening in the evening, the child or I may fall ill and then the whole routine changes. To be honest, I have a hard time dealing with the sudden change in schedule. If I don't get to work on a painting in a day, I get very anxious. I'm just learning to let myself rest from the daily grind. And of course it wasn't always like this. I was able to work fully only when Anna went to kindergarten. Now my daughter is big enough to go to exhibitions with me. Of course, she does not always have the patience to endure a long event, but at least she is very interested in what her mother does. My husband helps me build an optimal daily routine - he often picks up my daughter from school, helps me prepare lunch or dinner, and I have extra time to work or rest. "I believe that my art will teach my daughter humanism, a humanistic view of the world. It will teach her to respect her vocation and her interests, regardless of finances or society's opinion. It is important to be yourself and to love yourself." I have many artist friends who also have to combine art and family. Some of them had to stop their creative work for a long time and work at another job to raise a child. But then they came back to art anyway. It helped me to stop being afraid that if I interrupted my artistic work for a while, I wouldnt be able to go back. I realized that sometimes artists (both men and women) can pause to solve their problems and then paint again and be fully in the art profession. Being a mum The birth of my daughter played a huge role in my development as an artist. If before the birth of Anna painting was more of a hobby for me (I did not participate in exhibitions, I painted mostly only to order), then after the birth of daughter, I realized that I need to find my own style of painting, to formulate what I want to convey to the viewer through my art. I must take part in exhibitions. I need to evolve. To become better and cooler, to make my daughter proud of her mother. While my daughter was baby and couldn't get along without me, I felt terrible because I really wanted to get myself back as a person as soon as possible, to stop being an "app"; to serving the child and to get back to being creative as soon as possible. I was in a big hurry and felt guilty that I was a bad mother and could not fully immerse myself in my child's life. When Anna was about two years old, we had a babysitter come over three times a week for three hours at a time. Those nine hours a week became my salvation. I was slowly getting myself back on track. I realized that I would only be a good mom if I had the opportunity to do what I loved. I learned how to leave for a few hours without “mum guilt”, to completely immerse myself in my world for that time, and then return to my child energized and ready to spend full and sincere time with my daughter. Probably the hardest situation was when my husband and I had to fly out to another country for a week for an exhibition, and left my daughter with her grandmother. She was too small to take with us. But my priority at the time was to develop my career as an artist. I don’t regret that I didn’t give up this trip, because then a year later there was a pandemic, problems with flights, obtaining visas, etc. And if I hadn’t taken advantage of this opportunity then, I still wouldn’t have had the experience of a foreign exhibition. What about Anna - she had a wonderful time with her beloved grandmother. There were no tears or heartache. She knows that her mum goes to exhibitions, it’s her job. And she always proudly tells her friends about me. I feel much more “mum guilt” when I do chores (washing dishes, cooking, cleaning) instead of spending time with my daughter. It really is a waste of time - no fun for me and no attention for the child! Fortunately, she;s old enough now that we can, for example, cook something delicious together. When a baby is first born, the first year (and more) a woman is completely devoted to her baby. Breastfeeding, caring for the baby, walking, sleeping - all this fills a woman's life completely. It is really hard to find time for yourself. And it's hard to believe that there will ever be time for yourself. You don't feel like a separate person, but like an infant's attendant. It was a really difficult period for me. I was used to a multi-faceted life - painting, equestrian, work, meeting with friends. All that had to be forgotten for a while. And then to return slowly back into my life. To choose what is most important and what to wait for, or what to give up. Of course, with the baby, life will never be the same again. Now there was the most important thing in it - a new life, for which you are responsible. But my life has not become more boring or monotonous. Now, 10 years later, I can definitely say that with the birth of a child, I have more things in my life, I just learned how to combine them all. And I also realized that only by my own example I can show my daughter what it means to live a full life. Do I want Anna, when she grows up, to devote her life to housekeeping? Absolutely not. I want my daughter to live an interesting and fulfilling life. And only from me she can learn how multifaceted a woman's life is. Not from my stories, but from the way I live. Because children are educated not by words, but by what happens before their eyes. "While my daughter was baby and couldn't get along without me, I felt terrible because I really wanted to get myself back as a person as soon as possible, to stop serving the child and to get back to being creative as soon as possible. I was in a big hurry and felt guilty that I was a bad mother and could not fully immerse myself in my child's life. " To be an artist is not to have a steady income. Of course, this is very damaging to one;s ego. When there are a lot of successful, well earning peers around, and your sales are down, or your online account is closed because of the political situation, you feel worthless, as if you've achieved nothing in life. Every time you fall down, you have to get back up and move on. But I believe that my art will teach my daughter humanism, a humanistic view of the world. It will teach her to respect her vocation and her interests, regardless of finances or society's opinion. It is important to be yourself and to love yourself. My mother's fate and her actions greatly influenced my character and attitudes. In my childhood in Russia it was not customary to divorce, it was considered shameful. But a man could simply leave a woman with children and not help them. But for a woman to file for divorce herself - that was rare. So my mother divorced twice, ecause she did not agree to tolerate bad treatment of herself. She was always very different from ordinary people. She was able to build a brilliant career as a lawyer on her own and she is still working today. Everyone admires her now, but few people shared her views then. She is strong and independent. Apparently that;s why it's important for me to be financially independent, too. It;s true that with the profession of an artist, this is hard to achieve in my country. Now I started two new series of artworks. The first is portraits painted on uncoated canvas. The lack of a background allows focusing as much attention as possible on the subject of the image. The hero of painting is captured in the process of working or interacting with the world around him. It is important to catch the character, or rather, one important detail through which the whole image is revealed. And the second is about the inner world of man. This inner world is not constant. It changes depending on our moods and the moods of the people around us. A person;s inner space can be very different from the outer space. This resonance of the internal feeling and the external environment is the main theme of the new series of paintings, in which silhouettes of people are filled by the second background, reflecting the general mood. Contact Elena My Instagram accounts: @elena_zima_artist – about art and life @elena_zima_art – only art BACK

Emily Johnson US author S2 Ep53 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome! Today's guest is Emily Johnson, an author and mother of 1 from Raleigh, North Carolina, USA. Emily grew up with a creative mother, she spent many years dancing ballet and golf. Emily has a background in journalism and marketing, When Emily was 13 her mum was diagnosed with advanced stage Ovarian Cancer. Statistically, she had very little time left and shortly after, she began writing a novel entitled Bird of Paradise , She lived for another 17 years. Shortly after her mum's passing, Emily opened her mums laptop and found her unfinished novel, and a letter from her mother requesting that Emily finish the novel for her. It took Emily 8 years to complete this epic task, and along the way the process took her through emotional ups and downs, processing grief, learning more about her mother and creating a legacy for her family. Bird of Paradise was finally published on what would have been her mother's 71st birthday. **This episode contains discussions around grief and the loss of a parent, having a baby without your mother in your life and anxiety.** Purchase the book - Bird of Paradise Read the article by Rachel Harris that inspired Emily Connect with Emily Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. It really does mean so much. My guest today is Emily Johnson, an author and mother of one from rally in North Carolina in the United States. Emily grew up with a creative mother. She spent many years dancing ballet and golf, and she enjoyed many trips to say The Phantom of the Opera. Emily has a background in journalism and marketing. When Emily was 13, her mom was diagnosed with advanced stage ovarian cancer. Statistically she had very little time left and shortly after she began writing a novel entitled bird of paradise. Emily's mom lived for another 17 years. Shortly after her passing, Emily opened her mom's laptop and found her unfinished novel. Together with a letter from her mother requesting that Emily finished the novel. He took Emily eight years to complete this epic task along the way, processing her grief, through emotional ups and downs, learning more about her mother and creating a legacy for her family. Bird of Paradise was finally published on what would have been her mother's 71st birthday. This episode contains discussions around grief and the loss of a parent, having a baby without your mother in your life and anxiety. The music you'll hear today is from Australia New Age ambient music trio LM job, which features myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Emily. It's a real pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. So you're in North Carolina in the US. So what's it like there at the moment? What's your weather doing? It's doing the typical North Carolina spring. So one day it's winter and the next day it is oppressively hot and humid. So I believe today is supposed to be warm tomorrow. Thunderstorms tornadoes last week, and who knows? Maybe snow by the end of the week. Oh, wow. I'm joking about the snow. We're over that. But it's a funky time of year here. Yeah. Right. And like tornadoes. Like that doesn't sound that fun. Is that? No, no, it's not. I mean, we're not not like the tornadoes they get in the Midwest, but a tornado is a tornado as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Oh, goodness. Well, that's one thing I have never had to come across here. So that's, you know, I have no experience on that. But and you said just while we're chatting that you're not originally from North Carolina. Where are you from? Originally? I am originally from Aspen, Colorado. Ah, yep. Yeah. They were born there. Yeah. I was there for 13 years before my family moved to North Carolina. Yep. Oh, beautiful. That's, that is a beautiful part of the world. I kind of think of my creativity as being two folds. By Day and profession. I'm in marketing and advertising, which is certainly creative. I call it box creativity because you can only go so far. You've got clients and, you know, length. Regulations. And you know, I mean, a tagline can only be so creative. And then unexpectedly, I just published a book, while I guess just is a year ago. And it's a work of fiction. So a lot of creativity. It was actually originally begun by my mom when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. And she passed away leaving it unfinished and a couple weeks after she passed away I found a letter from her that had her unfinished manuscript And she asked me to finish it for her. So, yeah, it was a Titanic, you know, trying to do that. But after eight years, I finally finished it. And I am still shocked and surprised that it's published. Congratulations. That's an epic, epic story. So you had no idea that Did you know that she was working on it? And you just assumed that it it sort of just been left to one side until you read the letter? Yes, I did. I mean, I knew for years she was writing it. And I knew she'd spent hours doing it. And I'd always ask what she was writing about. And she told me I'd find out eventually, and then I'd asked, Can I read it? And she said, you'll find out about it eventually. You know, and said, I had no idea what it was about. I mean, the first time I sat down to read it, after she passed it, I was just, I was blown away. I was shocked. Never in a million years could I have I imagined my mom writing something like this. And she's a brilliant woman. But it was just amazing to me. And so yeah, it was shocking. Oh, goodness. So I'm gonna go I'm gonna leave that story there. For sake just leave everybody on the tip of the chairs waiting. But I want to go back to, to you as a as growing up. And as a child, I guess. Were you creative? Then? Were you interested in the arts or music or things like that when you're growing up? Yeah, I mean, I loved it. I danced ballet for years and years and years. Certainly not professionally. But it was something that I really enjoyed doing. And so I had an appreciation for the classical arts. I've always been a big fan of musical theater. When I was in fourth grade, my parents took me to go see Phantom of the Opera. And I was pretty much hooked since then, I think I've seen at about 14 times, all over the world, which is kind of, I don't know, crazy, maybe fanatical. But I just I love going to the Broadway shows. And I've just always loved the symphony. And you know, any of the arts has just been a huge part of my life. I even wrote grants for the professional ballet company here for several years. Yeah. Anytime I get a chance to go and see anything in the theater on there. Yeah, that's interesting. You say about the Phantom. That was the first show that I ever saw. The town that I live in, were sort of 500 kilometers between. I don't know what that is in miles, sorry. But we're like halfway between these two major cities in Australia, Adelaide and Melbourne. So we don't have we don't have big things come here. But this one time, I don't know how maybe I was 11 or 12. And mum took myself and my sister on the bus to go over and say it. And then as soon as it finished, we got on the bus and drove back home again. Like it was just this quick trip. But that was ah, yeah, I can definitely relate to you about that. That being the first show that you see. It just it's incredible shows and it's just I love it. I mean, I when I was a kid, I even put on a one woman show the Phantom of the Opera in my living room from my parents so that they were chandelier falling and everything. Fabulous. I play the piano, you know, just for fun and kind of stress release and things like that. And I'm a golfer I played competitive golf throughout my high school years. I still play not competitively, but there's some creativity to that. And when you end up in the woods, you got to figure out how to get yourself out of their vision what could be I never thought about golf that way actually, my husband used to play and I never thought he was very creative. But you know, that's a good point. If you're hitting it straight, it's not creative. But if you're all over the place, you gotta get yourself over to that green. I love that. That's awesome so, your mum, she said You said she was you know, a brilliant person in your words was Was she always sort of creative and doing things and and you're exposed to that when you were growing up? Yeah, I mean, she was very artistic. Her art did not pass down to me at all. She never really did anything, you know, other than just for pure joy of it. She used to love doing paper cuttings, and I still remember her doing Apple birds and grapefruit roses for dinner parties. Oh, you know, she she just loved that kind of creativity. She was a school teacher. She taught elementary school. She was actually my teacher in second and third grade is the only teacher ever sent me to the principal's office she Yeah, that was embarrassing. But, you know, after she retired when we move North Carolina, she did a lot of work with curriculum and she worked for I can't think it's the American Curriculum Development Society, I think is what it was called, don't quote me on that. And so she did a lot of talks around the country about developing curriculum for elementary school level. But I just I always enjoyed watching her create things. Yeah, that would have been like a really awesome sort of environment to grow up with having that, like encouragement. And, yeah, yeah, it was, she's, she's like, every year, we used to go to New York and go to some Broadway shows. And that was kind of our celebration of our birthdays. And it always would be fast with the opera would be number one, and then we'd go see a couple others as well. So I have a lot of memories of that. So that's it. Like that's a really good setup for you, regardless of whether then you actually have this incredible task given to you by your mom to, to complete the book, what what was your first thoughts? I mean, you have shared that you couldn't believe that she had written it, when you had to think about you then writing it, how did you feel about taking on that task? You know, it's really funny writing, it was the easy part for me. I think I just I knew my mom's so well, that once I read through this and got to know her characters and, and their motivations and who they were, I actually the story came to me fairly quickly, I wrote the end before anything else, and then backtracked my way to that black and white line of where she ended. And then, you know, when I, when I created the ending of the story and the story arc, I had to complete it. So I had to go back to what she had written, and add in events and some conversations just to make it cohesive. But it, you know, it and so I guess, in part, it was almost therapy for me, because so much of her even though it's fictional, is in this book that I was able to, you know, really continue a conversation with my mom, for nearly eight years after she passed away. And in that immediate moment, after her passing is, is very difficult. You know, and everyone has a different way of grieving. And this helped me through it enormously. Because it just felt like I could talk to her. Yeah. So how did it feel then when you're coming up to finish it? Did that feel like you didn't really want to finish it? Like you knew that would be the end? You know, of the? Yeah, I, I think part of the eight years of me trying to write this, yeah, I changed careers, I had a child, which I know we'll probably be talking about. So I had a lot of distractions. But part of me also thinks I never really wanted to finish it. Because I knew that would close a chapter on my life with my mom. And I could have gone over and over and over this, you know, indefinitely, but just decided I have to stop at some point. And just type the end. And I really thought that was it. I mean, I never really intended to publish it. And then I just happened to know someone that knew someone who was in publishing and got my manuscript to them. And all of a sudden, they wanted to publish it. So it was amazing, but I just, you know, and now I can look back on it. It's been 10 years since my mom passed away. So now I can kind of look back on it. And it's a new way of connecting with my mom, you know, our words are gonna be forever intertwined in this book. And so, you know, I can kind of think to that as well. Yeah, that's such a beautiful story. Like, yeah, and um, yeah, sorry, I'm getting emotional. That's just so special, isn't it? Like, you're right forever. You're in your mom's words and your ideas and concepts and everything will be together in this one document. That's pretty massive, isn't it? Yes. I mean, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. It was so much fun getting to do it. And just knowing that that her dream of being published was was going to be fulfilled Yeah. Like on one hand, it's like, I want to say it's a lot of pressure to put on you because she obviously knew you're capable. She wouldn't have done it, I guess. But yeah, that achieving it is just, you know, like you said, it's, it's meeting that dream that your mom had. And that's pretty special, isn't it to be added, I think she always intended me to be the one to finish really put the letter in the copy of the unfinished manuscript somewhere, which she knew I would find it. It was in her closet under her computer. And she, I think she knew I'd go snooping for it because I wanted, I knew it was on her computer, I knew her password. And I think she just knew, you know, I was gonna go try and find this. And So lo and behold, there it was. And yeah, I am I, my mother never did anything, unintentionally. That just wasn't her way. And I really think that she, she knew how much I'd need this, she knew that I'd be capable of finishing it, even if I didn't think I was gonna be. And so I think she really, this was her way of, of making sure I was going to be able to make it through the next few years, until I got to that point in my grieving period, where I knew that I was going to make it through versus this is where I'm going to be forever in this empty space, you know, without my mom. So you know, and I and the way with the story goes, I don't want to give anything away. But there's a ton of me in this, I mean, you can, you can almost in a sense, feel my emotional growth throughout, you know, the book as well. And because the book follows a young girl who starts out at the age of 17, at the beginning, which is in 1967, in San Francisco, which is when my mom was in San Francisco, that's where she grew up. So the 60s in San Francisco, she's got some had some great stories. But you know, the in the book follows a decade long journey of this girl, as she, you know, learns to find her place in the world and who she is and, and learns that you have to overcome things in order to find the beauty in life. And so it it there's a very strong central family in it. That is very much like what my family was. And so I can see little bits and pieces and the characters and the stories and things. And I think she you know, she knew I'd need that there's a lot of life lessons that you really hope you can pass on to your children, but she didn't know if she'd be there. She had terminal cancer. I mean, I was 15 She got diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She had had breast cancer before that. And they told her, you know, statistically, people don't survive this. And she made it nearly 17 years past that. She wished she told her doctors, you know, you, you better make sure on there to see my daughter walked down the aisle. That was her ultimate goal. And I put, you know, like I said, I was 15. That was a long ask for terminal cancer. But she was there, she saw me get married, to have her doctors that were with her the whole time. Also, were there to see me get married, which was really special to me. And you know, she just she wasn't going to take no for an answer. She was just, that was it. She wasn't going until she was ready to go. And that's I think what? What made her the survivor? She was. Yeah, well, that is just an inspiration in itself, really, isn't it? Yeah. All right, well, let's talk about your family that you mentioned that you had a child during this process. And yeah, share us share with us about your family. Well, I have one son, he's seven and a half now, which is absolutely unbelievable to me. And my husband and the three of us live in Raleigh, North Carolina. My husband's an engineer. And like I said, I do marketing advertising. And my son his full time profession is to be crazy. I joke that he's solar powered, going and going and going to use the joy of my life. Yeah, I can relate. I've got a six and a half year old. So you know, around that time? They are they like the Energizer Bunny, they just go and keep going and going and go and they just don't stop. Do they know they never do. So how was that like then trying to write and then, you know, raise a little ball of energy. Yeah, well, I mean, I, you know, I started, I started writing, I got pregnant, I guess a year and a few months after my mom passed away. And so I I had already started writing this a little bit prior to getting pregnant. And then during the pregnancy process, I was actually I feel like my creativity went up tenfold. I don't know why. Once I got past that third trimester that or the first trimester that was a little rough week. We could do it without that. But you know, I had this time I slowed down my my actual profession quite a bit during my pregnancy, it was kind of a rough one. So I spent a lot of time at home. And this is how I filled my time. And then once he was born, I put it down, I almost forgot about it. It was it was a couple years. I mean, it wasn't until he went to preschool that I was able to pick it up again. And he was in preschool for about six hours a day. So I dropped them off. And then I'd go to a local coffee shop with my computer and just sit and write. And that's kind of how I went about and then we, you know, when he went immediately, well, not immediately, he actually ended preschool early because of COVID. And did virtual kindergarten. So that was a bit rough. And I did not, you know, it's during that virtual kindergarten is when I was able to get this published. So he'd be sitting there and I'd be editing it and listening to him on the computer as well. So so it was definitely on and off. And that's I think, why it took me eight years to bash hmm, yeah. Well, I was gonna ask you about your identity when, when you became a mom, did you have the sort of shift in? I don't know, we sort of joked that feels like we've been hit by a truck. And, you know, we don't know, if we're up the right way or the wrong way, whatever. Did you sort of experience that sort of emotions when you had yourself? I did. I mean, it was funny. I was, you know, it was very hard for me giving birth without my mom. My dad's older sister actually came out for several weeks to be there with me. And then I was so late in my delivery that she left a couple days after, because she, she needed to get back to our family. But you know, so I think for the you know, it's just such a shock. It's like hitting a brick wall, where you have those moments of pure joy. And then all of a sudden, you think, Oh, my gosh, I'm responsible for another life. And I don't know what I'm doing. And, you know, it was, you know, my son sneezed. And I immediately wanted to call my mom and ask if I needed to take him to the hospital or not. But she wasn't there, you know, and my dad was completely overwhelmed as well, I don't know, what do you do? You know, and it was, you know, so for the first few years, it was really difficult. Not that it's not still difficult, but it was just kind of, I really just became Nate's mom. That's what I did. And then I ended up going back to work. I'll be it a little differently. It wasn't in the ad agency, or nonprofit world. But I ended up going back to work and did that for several years, my college roommate, who I was still really good friends with, actually ended up watching my son while I was at work, which was, you know, I had someone to trust. But I just got to that point where I felt like I was missing him, I felt guilty that he was away from me. And so I stopped working, which I never thought I do. I always intended to be that career person that would have a family and juggle their full time career and figure it out. And then all of a sudden, that wasn't important to me. I just, you know, I lost that, that drive to have that type of career. And in advertising, it is very difficult not to be 100% committed to the career if you want to move up. It's just it's a cutthroat business. And so yeah, my my identity as a career woman completely went out the window. And I became a full, you know, full time mom. And now I'm able to do freelance marketing advertising. So I have my own clients, I can work from home on my own schedule. And I've built a business that way, which has been fabulous, but I still remember hitting that moment where I I looked in the mirror and I was like, I don't even know who I am. I mean, I've I've everything is now revolved around my family, which is great. But I saw myself starting to go downhill because I had lost who I was. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? If you if you don't sort of look after yourself and know who yourself is, I suppose you do. You do risk just sort of dis dissipating. I suppose just like you said, just being nice mum. And, and that's all you exist for. And then that can be I don't know, I actually spoke to a lady a couple of days ago when I was recording. And she had the same experience. She always wanted to have four children. That was her dream was just to have four children. And she had to and realize how hard it was but she just kept pushing on and she got the four and then she thought she'd be happy. They she thought Once I've met my goals, this is what I want. Now I should be happy. And then she couldn't work out why she wasn't happy anymore. And it was because she'd lost sight of who she was. Like she was just existing for her children, basically. So, yeah, it's scary when you get to that point. I mean, there's a lot of feelings that go into that. And I actually, you know, I had started to try and find my point of passion, again, that fit into, you know, that circle of family, I mean, there's things that I would love to be going to do. But you just can't, as a mom, I mean, there's, you know, the logistics of babysitting, and school and things like that. But I needed to find that thing that was just mine. And I started to do it, I got really into kickboxing, and I went to the gym. I had a trainer who had I've known for years, because I broke my back when I when I think from years of playing competitive golf, I had fractured my back unknowingly, but it came to a head in 2011, and I had to get surgery. And so he was my physical therapist when I was able to kind of start getting back to it. So, you know, I'd always been working out, but it really became a central focus for me, when I found out that I had completely lost who I was. And, you know, I obviously, you know, if some, my son needed something, I had to put the working out on the back burner for a little bit. But, you know, I tried very hard to protect that hour of my day. And but then, you know, you kind of start losing it a little bit when when something happens, or your son goes to school, or, you know, there's a life change. And then I read an article in a magazine that Rachel Harris wrote, she's an actress, and you know, about her becoming a mom in in the acting world, and what she learned about it, and she got really into fitness as well. You know, and she just, she realized that being a happy mother made you a good mother, you know, and that, so I didn't feel the guilt anymore about really taking that time for myself, because I realized what I was doing was actually helping my son and not harming him. So, absolutely, yeah, that's something that really common theme on the podcast is people talk about having their own needs met, so then they're able to meet the needs of others. And I think that's, you know, as a mom, who's there for everybody, not, you know, you're not just there for the children, but you know, your, for your partner and your job. Or if you've got, you know, pets, you've got to look after, like, you're there for everybody, like, there's so hard, you know, and I suffer from anxiety, I was always a type A personality, and then the older I got, and then having a child, I took my anxiety up to a huge level, and that would interfere with my ability to do things. And so, you know, working out came became the way to combat it. I took it a bit too far, not that long ago and broke my ankle doing it. But you know, you have to be, you know, a little careful. You know, I really did. I mean, if I'm happier, my family's going to be happier, I'm going to be more present in the moment, which is so important. Rather than thinking of the what if this happens, or I didn't do this, right, or, you know, it, it's so important, I think, to do that. And I I fall, you know, off the wagon every once in a while and have a moment of complete, you know, panic about things, but I think I'm getting better. I'm a work in progress. I think we all love to be honest, everyone has their moments. And then, but I think it's having that goal, like you said that, that point of passion, which I think is awesome, saying I'm going to start using that is, is really does, you know, even if you, you're conscious that you haven't done it for a couple of days, whatever, it's always in your mind now because you've got something that you know, makes you feel amazing. And, and that in turn, you know, helps you, you know, be the mom that you want to be I suppose for one, it's very much. That's a lot of my mom, my mom, because it's a theme throughout the whole book is finding that thing that you're passionate about and finding your sanctuary, which she always said was you know, finding who you are and knowing you know, knowing who you are and liking who you are. And once you find that place, you know, things the good will come. But she was always one to live passionately, you know, she had to face her mortality. So she lives you saying she lives every day to the fullest. It's kind of weird because someday she just you know, throw up her hands and you know shout and yell and say things I can't say on a podcast. But everyone's allowed to do that. You know, I mean if you don't if you're perpetually perky, it's you're hiding things that's just not human nature. She was a big proponent of of Never Letting Go Have passion in your life. And unfortunately I did. And you know, since that's a theme throughout the book, I mean, this, this book is really almost a guide for me at various stages of my life, and I'm forever thankful for that. Yeah. It's awesome. It's like, you've got your own personal little, you know, I don't want to call them a self help book, because it's not, but you know what I mean? Like, it's a, it's a little, little reminder for certainly self help, you know, it's not what to expect when expecting, but it is definitely self help. For me. I mean, I just, there's little reminders in there, where I just have to say, oh, yeah, you know, I forgot to do that I forgot, I forgot me, I forgot to hold on to that passion. And I really, it has changed my life to remember to go back and take care of myself. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. That's an incredible gift for your mom to give you to like to raise you in that way. And to, to actually role model that for you for you. And then, you know, I'm sure as your son grows up, like, he's going to have the same sort of mentality, because that's how you're authentically living your life in that way. It's just I hope so. I mean, it's, you know, I can see a lot of meat in him with his personality, you know, he looks just like my husband, except for his hair, his hair is as wild as mine is. But, you know, he, he's very type A, I can see the anxiety in him. You know, and I'm hoping that I can combat that. You know, from being on the other side, I know what it's like to have that anxiety, you know, in college, sometimes it can be, you know, detrimental. It can, it can make things very difficult sometimes, you know, particularly with exams. And so I'm hoping, you know, that I can I can impart that wisdom on him, like my mom did to me, or tried to do to me. But it took me to getting an adult in my mother myself to understand exactly what my mom was trying to say to me the whole time. And you know, and this book is his grandmother's legacy, and his mom's legacy. I did very similar to my mom, I tried to put in, you know, like I said, it's a fiction, but there's some very deep, you know, things for me, not only, you know, with the storyline and places that the book goes that I wrote from experience. I mean, he'll get to, you know, see some of my experiences in life. But it's also I tried to put in, in those lessons that I want to pass on to him as well. Yeah, you know, and it's, it's, he's very proud of it, which just makes me feel warm and fuzzy. He drew an art in art class, he drew a picture of the cover. And I just, you know, I went to tears when I saw that. Oh, that's beard focus. Yeah, that's, that's was something I was going to ask you is like, how does you know? Does he know that his mom's an author? And obviously he does and yeah, like, very proud of it. I mean, to hear him talk you think I was like a best selling you know, New York Times famous author. So yeah, it's great to see I mean, you you hope that your children see you as this hero figure in your life. Y'all not so I saw my parents I was very close to my parents. I was an only child just like my son is going to be because I was after his birth I was one and done. It was not gonna happen again. Oh, I was yeah, that was not I'm so thrilled with the way it turned out but it was not pleasant. Yeah, but it's just you know, that's just it makes it worth it. Yeah, I nearly I nearly only had one because I had a very terrible delivery and then a very challenging baby. So my kids have got seven nearly seven half years between them. It took a while to get back on the wagon. I understand that I just never got back on the wagon Yeah, no good on you. will get a dog that's all. Yeah, now I could have easily have done that. was at the point where I was either going to get a hysterectomy or have another child like that's how my brain was like flip flopping between the two options. You know, it was my husband it was not was not not in the cards. Tell us the name of the book called Bird of Paradise. Can you share what it's called that? Or is that sort of comes out in the book more? Would you rather know? Yeah, it's funny, I don't, you know, my mom titled it. And I found out from the very little notes that she left that at one point, she was gonna call it letters to my daughter, which just gives me the warm fuzzies. Because a lot of it is kind of have that relationship between the mom and the daughter. It's it's a lot of that. But she her favorite flower in the world was bird of paradise, she had one in the room that she did the majority of her writing. So it does, you know, for her it, there was a bird of paradise flower that the mother took everywhere the family went, because the father's job takes them to all these different exotic locations like London and Paris and Hong Kong and Jakarta and all these amazing places. And so she always brings the bird of paradise with her. But that's where it ended with my mom. It's part of the story. And because I knew how important it was, I carried it into a much larger theme where it became symbolic and not necessarily just the flower. So there's it's twofold. You know, and there's bird of paradise all over the cover. There's a there's an island in the book, which is the family's true home, even though they live all over the world. And that island is, is the one place in the book that doesn't really exist. It was all made up in my mom's mind. I've had so many people ask me, you know, where is it and I have no earthly idea. But it is this beautiful idea like tropical islands that I would love to find Sunday. And of course there's bird of paradise on. So just coming back to how you approached writing the book, did you have to? Did you find that your style of writing was already, like similar to the way that your mom had written? Because you've been reading? Or did you have to make a real conscious effort to try and make the way that you're writing blending with your mom's? It was a very conscious effort, because just my background is in journalism and marketing, which is not descriptive and poetic. I mean, you have to say what you want to say and get out of there. And so, you know, for me, it was I wrote very black and white. My mom was very descriptive. You know, very, I've had people compare it to a movie in the mind. So there was no little detail she left you know, hidden and you know, so my first draft of this, you could tell it was two different writers. It was my draft was very, you know, just this is what happened. These are the facts. And here's the story and, and I knew that was going to happen. So I had to go back over, you know, my my sections of it. And just I've said several times, and I hold true to it that it was like an oil painting, where you just add layer upon layer of description until I got to that level of what my mom's writing was. And that took you know, it took a massive amount of some of it was evaluating my internal feelings and using that to get to that level. A lot of it was finding Google Images that spoke to me that made sense within the story and just scribing them, or finding, you know, this book goes somewhere, and I don't want to reveal where it is, but this book does go to a location that is one of the most special places in the world to me. And so I was able to pull out old family photos and, and the feelings I had of seeing these things in person and, and use that, to really describe it, I'm still shocked that I was able to do it. I'm shocked that nobody really knows the true line of where I took over 100% Not even my publisher. You know, it's just my father is the only one that knows, and I hope it stays that way. I've had people guess, and you know, and things like that. But I don't want really any I don't want to reveal that. No, I Yeah, even if they guess, right, you're not going to tell it because it's gonna smile and say, you know, no. Yeah, that's true. No, but that's the thing, too. It's, it's part of this incredible story. It's the joining together. But at the same time, it's the same. It's one in the same if you know what I mean. Like, yeah, you you wouldn't want people to to like to tell people because I don't know. It just doesn't it wouldn't feel right, wouldn't it? I know. And it was very important to me, you know that I stay true to my mom's story. This was her story. You know, I, I made sure her name was listed first on the cover. That was really, really important to me. For some reason, it's small, little detail. But that was that was essential that that happened because it is hers. These characters are hers. Just because I completed their story art doesn't mean I took them over. And I didn't want to take away from her writing, you know, I could have easily gone in here and just stripped her writing down to match more my writing style. The book is over 550 pages long. It's a saga of a book. But and I could have certainly done that. But then I would have it wouldn't have been hers anymore. And that's what's so special about it. And she didn't leave any notes. For me whatsoever. There was no outline, she created every character with the exception of one I just had a name and knew who that character was supposed to be in the story. And that was a lot of fun for me to create that particular character. I have a feeling she did that on purpose. I don't think she wanted to box me in. I think she wanted me to be able to take the story where I wanted to take it. I actually don't even remember her writing for the last year of her life. Granted, I didn't live at home, but I think she stopped intentionally. I mean, I just I I don't know why I just have this feeling. But I think she, she did not want me to feel like I had to stick to one particular story. I like to think where I took it is exactly where she would have. Because I knew her like that. I knew that the way she thought, you know, this is this book starts as a coming of age family saga. And then as the main character gets older and more experienced, it works its way into a romance. And you know, I think you know, and I just think that's something she wanted me to experience as well. This is such an awesome story. Honestly, how many people can say that they've done what you've done. Like, it's just you must feel like incredibly, like proud and privileged. And, you know, all the all the big words and emotions like to have been able to do it. I'm so honored by the fact that she entrusted me with something that she had worked so hard on and, and I am very proud of it. I'm blown away by the reception. It's gotten the things that people have said, I mean, I've been compared to famous authors that I never had a million a barber freebie, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so cool. And, you know, and then you know, so it's just been absolutely incredible, you know, the experience and the almost the confidence that has given me again, I mean, that's something as a mother, I don't know, if it's just me or a lot of mothers, you start losing your confidence in your ability to do things. Am I ever gonna be able to do this again? Or is this any good? Or am I any good? You know, and I think a lot of that comes down to a first time Mother, you don't know what you're doing. So there is not a lot of confidence in that and you carry that through other aspects of your life. Because that's just the mode you get into is you just don't know if you're, if what you're doing is right. And that's the thought patterns you have. And I've always had a bit of a confidence issue anyways, so it just amplified itself. But you know, and then the thing that's really been special is the people that have reached out to me less about the book and more about the fat They've experienced losing a parent or they grew up with a parent that was facing a terminal illness and what that was like for them, or somebody that I hadn't even spoken to, since middle school reached out because his mother had just been diagnosed with cancer. And, and that has, where things have so surprised me. Because I've done a lot of podcasts that have been more grief based podcasts than writing technique. And that's, I think, a gifts, my mom left as well, she was, you know, she'd be in the chemo treatment room in the middle of eight hours of chemo, talking to the person next to them and encouraging them and getting them talking about things that were not cancer related. And that was just the person she was she was this larger than life personality that put so many people and so much ahead of her, not to her detriment, but I think it was part of what kept her going as well. You know, and now I'm getting to do that and carry that legacy on. Everyone talks about the seven stages of grief for what it is which, which to me is a bunch of hooey because nobody goes through grief the same way. You know, you might feel the guilt, which for me was the hardest part, you know, and obviously, you're going to fill that empty void and things and, and I'm still 10 years out grieving. But I think I've hit this point where it's, it's therapeutic to me to now talk about it, I spent years where I could not talk about it. It just was something. You know, I wasn't in denial, but I didn't want to bring up the memories. And that last few days, because she, despite the fact that she fought cancer for 17 years. The end was very quick. She was there one day and on life support the next day, and she passed away the day after Christmas in 2012. And, you know, in a sense, you know, you never want to lose someone, you kind of hope it goes that way. You don't want to see them with a slow decline. We were lucky I got a chance to say goodbye because she knew where things were going. I knew where things were going. And she had prepared me very well for it. You know, not that you can really say you're prepared for that. But I was lucky I got a chance. The last thing I ever said to her was I love you. And she said that back and that was it. And I was I just that's a gift that I will have forever. But, you know, I'm still I'm still like I said I'm still grieving and being able to now talk about it from a way of maybe helping other people is my new stage of getting through this. Yeah. You know, so it's not just helping, you know, it's helping me talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. And like you say, you can feel like you're prepared. I mean, yeah, there's you can do some preparation, I guess. But when that actually happens, it's like yeah, it's I got that closure that that conversation actually she was fine the night before she went on life support, she's in the hospital, but she was fine. And she and I stayed up almost all night with that, that conversation of closure where you you know you talk about things I mean, when I was a brat as a teenager you know when I got a chance to apologize or I got a chance to tell her you know, hey, I'm gonna be okay you know, I've married this wonderful man I've I've got this in store for me, you know, be comfortable with the fact that I've gotten to that place in my life where I'm I'm happy where I am you know and and I didn't need to apologize for that stuff. But it's you say everything you need to stay knowing that that's the conversation you're having. Yeah, yeah. Just take a moment and have a drink of water. Gonna have some coffee but you're right about grief. I mean, gosh, there is no there is no linear checklist of all the things that you go through in In this particular order, and, you know, my Nana passed away when I was 10. So that's like 40, sorry, 3034 years ago, and I still have moments where I just burst into tears because something's reminded me of a smell something, usually it's a smell. That's me, or I see a particular bird. Pardon me? And I just like, oh, no, I used to love those bits. And then off I go, you know, it's like, you're never, you never stopped grieving someone. I don't think it's just in different ways as time. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I've told you know, there's a lot of people that say, Hey, it'll be okay. But you know, it's not, you know, I used to hate it, when people would tell me that, because it's never going to be okay, that I lost my mom, but it's going to be different. I'm gonna get to that point where I can look back at the gift of the time I had, and not at what I've, what's been taken from me. Because it would be, you know, it's in times like that, it's very easy to get angry and, and resent, you know, whoever or whatever, you know, it's not fair. You know, all this sort of emotion, did you sort of go through that, as well. I didn't go through the it's not fair kind of stage. I remember the first few weeks afterward, you know, you're you're calling the banks and taking care of the credit card from the medical bills and things and I had my dad to go through all of it with but you're very, you know, systematic once you right away, which I think is a blessing, because you're you're not I don't think at least for me, I was not capable of facing the fact that she was gone. And those first few weeks, it was just not going to happen. It was actually the day I found the letter about the book that I finally realized, you know, it's the casseroles have stopped coming, the family's gone, people have gone back to their lives, and mine will never be the same again. And that's the first day that I really let myself go. And, you know, but I think for me, this, the place I stayed the longest, is also the place, that's the most detrimental, and that's the guilt. The guilt that, you know, things you said the smallest little things, you know, teeny tiny little things that the person probably had didn't even remember. And all of a sudden, they come flooding back and you just feel so guilty about the things you've said and, and certain things and the fear that, you know, I had, I went into an instant state of fear with my dad, I wasn't I couldn't lose my dad, I every little thing you know, don't get in a car dad, or make sure you're taking your medicine or so all this kind of stuff. And I stayed down with my dad for a couple months afterward. Because I was able, you know, thank God, I was able to do that. But you know, and so it's those two feelings that really were hard for me. And that guilt took a lot of time to get over, I did go see a therapist. I am not despite the fact that I talked about it on podcast. Now. At that point, I was not someone that would share my emotions. I don't cry in front of people. It's just not, not me. You know, I don't want to I don't want to show it's not a weakness whatsoever to express your emotions. But to me, I felt like it was showing a weakness. And I couldn't do that. I also wanted to be strong for my dad, he'd lost someone he'd been married to for 43 years. And, you know, it's it's and he was young. I mean, my mom was only 63 when she passed away. You know, and so my dad was in his mid 60s as well. And you just don't expect something like that. And, you know, but instead I let myself stay, you know, and it was it was not a therapist that got me there. She said something about guilt. And I all of a sudden realize that's what's preventing me from moving forward. I have got to get this guilt. I've got to work through it. I have got to let it go. And and so that was the biggest part for me. But you know, I never went through the anger. I never went through the denial. I think I just let myself be overcome with the guilt. Yeah, my dad sold their house and moved into another house. And that was a hard thing to say goodbye to and then you know, going through clothes. And you know, my mom had a lot of beautiful jewelry. So I've gotten to keep that and you know, but I did get rid of clothes except for the few that I will never wear. But they just hold special memories for me. I mean, one of them was this, you know, duster jacket she used to wear to fan with the opera every time it was her thing that's not going anywhere. And there's pieces of furniture that are memories of my childhood, which are completely not my style, but I can't give them up. So they're in my you know, guest room, which is the collective room of things that I don't know what to do with. You know, it's the memory room. Yeah. But it's a difficult thing. I think with every little thing. I've been able to let go I've healed a little bit. Knowing that, you know, it's, it's just a process. Yeah, yeah. And it will just take as long as it takes to go through different motions at different times. And it's just It's an ongoing thing, isn't it? It doesn't have an ingress. No, it never has an end, but it gets better. Just going back to you to what you said earlier, you said about how you've gained confidence. Do you think you write another book? I have another book idea. It's actually related to birth paradise. And it's the story of the parents that are in it. I see a lot of my parents and those two characters. And it's funny, because there's a little bit of everybody and all the characters. I mean, there's a lot of my dad and the little brother, my mom, you know, clearly didn't like my high school boyfriend. And I didn't know that until I read the character, the high school boyfriend, I was like, Oh, okay. I know who that is. And the, the way the parents met in this book, is the way my parent my parents actually met, they met at UC Berkeley. And so it would be really neat for me to go back, I'd have to go back much further. In time, since this book starts in 1967, which was a whole nother issue with turning to write it was that it happened during time period, I wasn't alive. That was, that was a lot of research going into that. But yes, I'd have to go back quite a bit. But it would be it would almost start the connection again. And it would give me a chance to go to my dad and find out about his life and use that to put into it. So it's, it's there, it's in my mind, I've tried to start it and it's I just can't get past the first sentence. You know, and I think that's an important thing for a writer to recognize when you've hit that writer's block and just walk away for a while. I've got too much going on with my clients and, and keeping up with my seven year old. Ish, just not right now. It's more of a stress than it is of a way to relieve stress. And that's, you know, writing Berta paradise was very stressed, you know, a way for me to escape the world, a way for me to let go of some stress and get that emotion out. It's, and it went in very positive way, this new book trying to write it, I just felt this is a negative thing for me. And it's time to walk away. So I don't know, is really the answer to the question. I hope so. Yeah, I hope you dig through it when the time's right. You know, when, when life when life gives you that little nod and says, Okay, now it's your turn. And I'm a big believer in that, that, you know, things happen for a reason. And there's little, you know, I, I always my mom always kind of taught me that, you know, you can't control what happens in life, but you can control how you respond to it. And that there's moments where you're given gifts, but whether or not you choose to take them is completely your choice, and you're the one that writes your own story. And that actually, is heavily put into bird of paradise, because it's something that my mom and I had talked about so many times that you know, nothing, nothing is going to be, you know, necessarily given to you, you have you're presented with these gifts, and then it's your choice whether or not you go with it, and they can they can come to you at any moment. But they'll come to you at the right moment when you need it the most. And so hopefully that that gift of writing a new book will present itself at some point and then I will jump on it that is so good. Can you share with us how readers can get a hold of your book? Yeah, it's sold exclusively on Amazon. It is theirs Believe it or not a lot of books called Bird of Paradise. Most of them are nonfiction about the actual flower and bird. So be careful there. But it's a yes. So it's it's by Maryland and Hughes and Emily HUGHES JOHNSON. And it's on Kindle Unlimited. There's a paperback Kindle itself. So yeah, I would love people to read it. I mean, sharing my mom's work with the world has just been incredible. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you like it, review it because it's really important. Read these reviews make the world go round. I do. And unfortunately, I mean, it's something I find myself doing more since having published a book as an unknown author. I mean, I'm completely no one knows who I am. My goal was to sell one book to someone that wasn't related to me. Yeah. And, you know, it's happened, it's been great. But, you know, I find, you know, reviews are so difficult, particularly with Kindle Unlimited, you know, people aren't going to go back and take the time, because we're all busy to go write a review, even though you know, I know what the sales are and things like that. And so, I've tried to find, you know, books that don't have a lot of reviews, because I think a lot of incredible books are missed, because people look at that, and not the book. Yeah. And I have found some incredible books that don't have that many reviews that I just wish, you know, I hope I don't, you know, I don't want to miss out on something from these authors. I'm not trying to tell people to get well, yes, go buy my book. But I'm not trying to say, don't miss it because of reviews. But you know, and I think that's something the publishing industry is so incredible now that they have opened up smaller hybrid publishers, self publishing, you know, things like that, that you have this option for really talented writers who, for one reason or another, can't get in with the top five publishers, and a lot of that is money. It takes a lot of, you know, money and time to go query and get an agent and then get into these publishing companies, and they're so rigid about what they will and will not, you know, published and I follow a lot of writers on Instagram and Twitter, and one of the things from the smaller writers is they get turned down, you know, they get these letters say, it's an incredible story, we love it, but you don't have enough social media followers. You know, and that's, that's, that is so limited. Just you have to wonder how many incredible stories are out there that will never be seen, because of something so unrelated. It's not about you know, in I'm sure, you know, the top five publishers are wonderful, but, you know, you almost concerned about sales more than getting a beautifully written story out there. And that's a real shame, because, I don't know, I have this feeling that, you know, social media exists now. But will it be around forever, you know, like, these, the stories and, and books will probably outlive all of this stuff, you know, and that would be a shame for something to have, just because it was in this time period, when social media was around. And it's being judged by that, for that not to be shared. It's a it shine. Social media is great, and being able to connect, you know, this huge world, but it is also so detrimental to society. And I use it I have to, I mean, that's one of the ways that I market the book, I don't have a choice. But if it wasn't for that, I would start giving up social media, because I just, you know, it's just not it can be you can go down the rabbit hole very quickly. And it's not necessarily a good thing. Oh, I basically got I ended up getting off Facebook for my own personal stuff, because I just, I just couldn't put up with the rubbish anymore. I just thought, like rabbit hole stuff, I just get dragged into things and think why am I caring about this, you know? So now I just go on Instagram, and then I just link it to go on my Facebook. So I never have to go into Facebook. But then I miss a lot of things. If people tag me and stuff or invite me to things. I'm like, oh, sorry, I missed your best friend's having a baby and you don't know about it? Exactly, yeah, put it on Instagram, then Oh, no. Share it with everybody. And then I'll be able to, you know, call and say, Hey, congratulations. But it is funny, like this whole thing that's meant to bring us closer, like we know what people are doing. So we feel like we know what they're doing. But we're not really knowing what they're doing. Because we're just seeing all these little tiny curated aspects of their lives. And it's, it's sort of pushing us apart more in a way. Well, and I think you try and present your best self on social media. I mean, who doesn't you know, you don't you want to make sure you're presenting the the highlights and so many people forget that. It doesn't matter who you are, life is dirty. I mean, it's there's going to be moments where you don't want to present yourself to the world. And so you don't and I think it gives a false sense of who people are, unfortunately, unless you're one of those people that is blatantly you know, getting yourself out there to just showing all the aspects of your life and there are some people out there and I appreciate you know, the people that do that. I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to put Good, the Bad and the Ugly out there. But I think that's something a lot of people unfortunately forget that this isn't showing the whole story. And I think it it negatively influences a lot of people. It's happened to me, I've looked at things and I'm like, gosh, you know, it's it's that that big, ugly, jealous. forbear, yeah. You're like, why can't I be doing the ad? Or or you know, and it's, it's not necessarily happening that way few you know, mom is like that too, you start comparing yourself to other mothers. And you know, every mom is different, every situation is different. And, and you know, you, you want this pride and you're your child and you want your child to excel and exceed, but if you're not careful, you're starting to compare them to others, and not to their best self. And, you know, and I've had to pull myself back from that every once in a while. Question, am I being a good mom? You know, and but it's, it's, am I being a good mom, for my son? Not for the kids of the entire world? Yeah, yeah. It's hard. I mean, that's the you know, people think physically being a mother is hard. But there is a lot of emotional second guessing. And, you know, and I'm doing this correctly. What, you know, am I a terrible mother? Am I a good mother? Am I you know, am I completely screwing my kid up for the future? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about that unless they're moms themselves. Oh, yeah. That's the thing like this, the mom guilt, that sort of label that we've got, I call it a hashtag mom guilt, because it's like, it's just been created for, for social media, but it's huge, like the way that we're forced to judge ourselves. Because I don't know what I find mostly. Is it? Other mums too, but mostly people that don't have children? Or like, or how come she's doing that? Why isn't she with a child? Or? Oh, she, she's going out again that night? You know, like, they're just always making judgments upon you, which makes, then you question yourself, like you said, you, you know, you don't have that self confidence. So you're like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I don't know is this, I get sick of this whole guilt guilt trip that moms feel like they have to go on? Well, I think just you know, societal norms, I think a bulk of society hasn't gotten past the 1950s. Mom, you know, where the mother is 100% The mother, you know, and that's your focus. And that's what you do. And you You know, I don't want to say you give up life, because that is wrong to any mother and the 1950s. It's not that but there's this almost, you know, it's almost Hollywood created view of what a mother should be. And that hasn't, that hasn't morphed to match the sign of the times, you know, we're way past the 1950s. Now, things are different. Women can be more independent, and they can start putting themselves you know, ahead of things because it's the healthy thing to do. And I think when someone sees a mother that does that doesn't understand that, that that is not being a bad mother is being a good mother. That is That is how, you know, we we deserve to be able to do stuff like that, so that we can come home and then put 100% focus into our families again, because it's impossible. i It's exhausting. And I don't think I've seen my friends that are moms that have just stopped everything to be a mother, which you know, when you have a newborn, you kind of have to do that you don't really have a choice. But if you never change as your child grows older, either. It's very detrimental. And it was for me, I mean, I've learned to start going out with my friends a little bit, not to date the podcast, but COVID put a stop on that one pretty good. But I'm really excited to start doing that again. You know, it's funny because I, during the last few years with everything that's been going on, I have found myself going back to that time where I'm not able to go to the gym, I'm, you know, my son's home, I don't have that that time to myself while he's at school. And I've I've relapsed into that forgetting about myself every once in a while. And when I do that, I go back to that article I talked about from Rachael Harris and reread it gives myself a little bit of a kick in the rear like oops, give yourself a pep talk and then off you go again. To find that letter, it would just be like, oh, man, like, I don't know. It's just It's huge, isn't it? I'm gonna go on the tie at the time, I didn't realize just how big it was. Yeah. You know, you kind of don't you're not thinking so much at that point. Yeah, yeah. Like you said, you going through the motions and doing all the practical stuff that it's got to be done and good on you. I'm really glad my curiosity got the better of me and I tried to get to her computer. I mean, she's, I'm sure she's you mile and down. She knew I would try and do that. Good on it. I really loved having a chat with you today, Emily and hearing your story. It's such a unique story. I'm sure I'll never speak to anyone again in my life who has done what you've done. Congratulations. It's a massive undertaking, and it's it's incredible. And I'm really looking forward to reading in. Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah. It's been crazy. Yeah. Wow. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Melissa Condo Francis Australian musician, singer, songwriter and educator S1 Ep13 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Melissa Condo Francis. Melissa is a singer/songwriter, collaborator, producer and performing arts teacher from Portland Victoria, and a mum of 3. Describing her genres as wide ranging as folk, electronica, jazz and alt pop, Melissa has performed as a duo, and soloist under the guise ‘ Sleuth ’, done international collaborations and released 4 albums as an independent artist, as well as producing and performing in an operetta. She talks about the way music has bonded their family, how she deals with criticism and finding 'your people', and the challenges of writing music with your significant other. **This episode contains discussions around mental health issues, loss of a parent and grief** Connect with Melissa on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sleuthmusic11/?hl=en Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Melissa's music used with permission Spotify Listen to all recent musical guests' tracks on this Spotify playlist When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Melissa Kondo France's Melissa is a singer, songwriter, collaborator, producer and a performing arts teacher from Portland, Victoria, and a mom of three, describing her genres as wide ranging as folk, electronica, jazz and old pop. Melissa has performed as a duo and a soloist under the guise of sleuth, she's done international collaborations and released four albums as an independent artist, as well as producing and performing in an operetta. On the episode she talks about the way music has gone to their family, how she deals with criticism, and finding your people and the challenges of writing music with your significant other. This episode contains discussions around mental health issues, loss of a parent and grief. Welcome, Melissa, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming on today. Thanks for having me. So, for those who aren't familiar with your music and what you do, can you give us a rundown about the style of music you create and all that kind of thing? Yeah, so I perform and right under the artist name of sleuth, which is kind of a bit of a parody harkening back to my days in the police force, actually. But I did my music style would be eclectic, really. I've done everything from sort of folk music to electronica to hardstyle, drum and bass. What else would I have done, I've got a lot of jazz elements to quite a bit of my music, as well. And probably the more prolific music or this stuff that's been out there a little bit more than the other stuff that in the back catalogue, we'd be all pop. Yeah, it's yeah, it's really, really, I have actually been openly criticized for not picking a particular genre to stick with. But I actually like it. I do a lot of international collabs with different artists. And they're all from all sorts of different genres, which is great. So keeps it interesting. And it really pushes my creativity, I think, to be able to write two different styles. Hmm, keep keeping it keeping it really interesting. Yeah. How did you first get into music? I've, I can't remember a time when I haven't been a musician. I learned piano from age three. So sort of earliest memories. Piano from age three till about, I did formal lessons till I was about 1516 years old. And yeah, I just stuck with that, really, and a lot of music theory, had a fair amount of personal family stuff go on for about a decade after that, which meant that I was sort of not playing music or writing. And I never really, in that decade, pushed myself to do anything musically. And then just found myself in a sphere, I guess, after after meeting my husband, where I could pick it up again, which was great. So from about age 26 onwards, just re fostered that, that love of music again, and threw myself into it. guns blazing, wrote four albums, did a couple of reasonably reasonably local regional tours. And yeah, I was I was probably a bit old really to be. And I say that with a big smile on my face, because I don't believe in age, defining how creative you can be. But yeah, I was probably a little bit too old to be marketed that successfully to the current pop scene, but that's okay. It doesn't. It certainly didn't stop me doing what I was doing. And I guess I was very fortunate that I could write music as a hobby, which allowed me to be a lot more authentic with what I was writing rather than try and write to a contract. To feel obligated to push out the music. I just sort of got on a creative wave, wrote it as long as the wave lasted and fortunately Um, the right the wave sort of has subsided a little bit about probably the start of 2021. I stopped, I haven't, I haven't actually released anything of my own. Since then I've released collaborations with other artists, but I haven't. I haven't written anything since Lux was finished. That was my fourth album. So just having a bit of a rest at the moment and dealing with COVID and dealing with other other scenes. I think my life at the moment that are taking a little bit more of a forefront. School I have three children, I had three under four, which was insane. So they're currently aged 10, nine and six. So my daughter is 10 and my two sons, nearly nine and six and a half. And they are in grade four, three and one. So they're, especially with remote learning in Victoria because of lockdowns, it's pretty mentally consuming to try and get them through a school day at home. Yeah, they do. Amazingly, I think we, I was fortunate enough to be blessed with a very large, extended inlaw family. And so they've had a lot of one on one time, they've had a lot of reading, they've had a lot of the early groundwork done. So they're actually, I think, probably a dream, realistically, speaking up to homeschool, but it doesn't feel like that a lot. But yeah, I think they're, they're amazing. So where did the having the children fit in with doing your music, I think the probably the scene for me to be reviving my, my musical abilities and interest really happened when I met my husband. We've been married for 13 and a half years. And that love of music has never really left me but I sort of didn't have any space to really inject any any deliberate effort into it or any sort of passion. Obviously, a piano is not that easy to transport to various different rental properties and that sort of thing. So my, my family piano stayed with my dad. And I've only just last year got got the piano. But I've been playing on since and everything since my husband actually gifted me one. My kids I had sort of I started having children about two and a half years into being married. So my husband and I were writing mainly folk music together, and just playing very sort of small, intimate Restaurant and Bar gigs in the local music scene, which, incidentally, I found super hard to get into it. There's a lot of ego I think involved in particularly the regional music scenes in Victoria, I don't know if it's like that in the rest of the country. But yeah, the covers scene is alive and well. And certainly if you if you play covers, you can get gigs just about anywhere, if you're any good. But to play original music, it's really really hard to garner a local following. So that that probably was a factor I think in in it just being sort of more smaller, intimate stuff at first. And then I had my children wrote music at home around doing all of that. But I was lucky that I never really needed to have it as a career. So I've always had a wage from another sort of job, or alongside being a musician that I think I was fortunate as well that when I did invest money into the music, I was able to do it under a performing arts business, which was one of my side jobs. So a lot of my expenses were tax deductible. And I had a very clever accountant that knew how to make it work for me. So I was able and my husband was amazingly supportive as well, which was, which was really nice. I don't think many musicians have that level of acceptance of spending 1000s of dollars on musical equipment, so that you can record an album which of course no one's paying you to record either. So then to produce CDs then costs 1000s of dollars more, and then you're really just taking a punt on whether or not there'll be enough I often local support to buy those albums just to recover your costs. So I think I've been quite lucky. That one, I have the support from him. And then secondly, I was lucky enough to have won a couple of competitions, which funded the subsequent album that I was about to release. So I released my firt, my debut album, number anima, which was very favorably received, which blew my mind, I got a five star review from a julong music publication, then independent music magazine, which just did not expect that at all, I remember getting the email with a review and just bawling my eyes out in the kitchen because it had been 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of hours of work, unpaid, nearly, like, oftentimes causing a lot of marital tension because of the amount of focus and just sheer ignorance that I had of whatever else was going on in my family scene. Because I'm pretty singularly focused like that, I often shut things out. So I've had an amazing amount of support to allow me to do that for a period of time. So those albums, were partially funded by me winning competitions, which was nice. And then also the sales of CDs, which I don't recommend doing either. Like, I must admit, I have chosen a medium to produce albums, which is not really that financially viable, but I'm lucky that at least it's paid for itself. So as far as a hobby goes, it's not costing me any more money, which is nice. That sort of takes a bit of a strain off. But yeah, it certainly is a privilege that not many, not many musicians get to get to enjoy your children into music as well. Yeah, absolutely. They don't have a choice really. Sorry. I had, as I said, I had music lessons from age three. My kids have been learning piano from or how old were they? I think I started them at age six or seven on piano. So they all play piano and they all start read music. They all play a little bit of drums. My son Austin plays guitar and Zach is learning all those a bit little. Zara plays ukulele they write songs, my daughter actually wrote a couple of songs with a girlfriend, which is super cute. I think that she was eight at the time and her friend was nine. And they put it on YouTube. So because of course they're watching mum do these music videos at home and things like that. Because obviously, I don't have a marketing budget to spend 1000s of dollars on music videos. So I just do the home job variety. I had a rude wake up call the other day actually, on a complete side tangent, I put one of my we've just recently got a pretty nice TV at our house. It was my husband's tax return present to himself. And I put one of my YouTube clips up on the TV. And on a phone or a small laptop screen, you can't see various errors. And then you put it on a massive 76 inch television. And you can see all these little blotches on the screen where I haven't edited properly and all this sort of thing i Oh my God, that's just an amateur hour. So yeah, it's it's been interesting, but I mean, unfortunately I don't have to. I don't have to answer to anyone about my my home job music videos, which is nice. But yes, in answer to your question, getting back on topic, my kids are all very musical. And it's a great way of bonding I think, particularly with my husband and the boys. They play drums and they also play like basic guitar. So they we all swap over instruments. One of our we had a we built a music studio during the first big lockdown in Victoria in the downstairs part of our house and so we have a bass rig a drum kit thing, an electric guitar rig a couple of my since the piano, the interface for recording and a big PA system down there as well. And so we'll have that family band time a lot of the time down there and the boys will they love it. It's actually really good bonding for them with with their dad and I don't think they would have been able to do it quite so early. If it wasn't for them. Piano Lessons might be at the beginning, my husband was thought I was crazy for insisting that they do theoretical piano lessons from a young age because it was quite expensive. And so, and he just didn't see the value in it initially. And now a few years in when they're playing sight reading music themselves and learning blues riffs, with their left hand and being able to have show independence on the piano between their hands and play some really cool little little jams, which he can then put bass or guitar or drums to. It's yeah, it's quite a good bonding thing for him. And for them, as well. Oh, yeah. Do you find them that because they've learned piano? Because they know the basic skills? They can transfer that then into the other instruments? Yeah. For them? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Especially with with the drums. For Austin, he, he's quite gifted at drums. He's only eight years old, nearly nine. And he, he can play with a lot of independence between his feet and his hands. Which means that he can play quite complex drum beats, compared to basic sort of four on the floor, rock ACDC type sort of stuff, which is not criticizing it. It's a fundamental part of Australian music. And there's a reason why it's so successful and accessible as well. It's because it's just so simple. There's a lot of space in the music for everybody to ramp up the vibe when I listen to it, but he can actually do quite a lot of creative fills. And different. I'm not a drummer. So I don't know the correct word, but like different textures with different different types of drums, because of it, because of that independence. And that really transcends from from playing piano, especially blues piano. He's quite lucky. I wish I'd learnt blues piano rather than just classical. But that's where I can teach myself now I've been teaching myself drums, which is pretty exciting as well. So padded, it's great. It's very therapeutic, though. I hit that the other day. Actually, I did some interviews with some dads for like the Father's Day special. And one of the dads was like, yep, Jones is very therapeutic. Yeah, yeah. That was drinking wine, as well as the other thing I've been doing. I had a conversation about that, too. I think all of Australia is actually that that could be the way to get our economy back up and running. Apparently, we had all this wine that China wasn't buying a while ago. I'm sure it's getting put to very good use right now. We won't waste it that's for sure. Did the kids come along to gigs or some of the kids I suppose with the ages? Some of them have yeah, I've done like I said, I've done quite a lot of different types of gigs. So I've put together a few years ago, an opera ready. Operator actually, I think it's a so called deal was two events. I did one in Hamilton and one in Portland and one was called Baroque on the hill and Baroque by the bay. And that was in conjunction with Hamilton and Alexandra college. So I, I put together a performance with a student ensemble where a couple of their most gifted string students were able to join in I obviously had the the core of the ensemble with a professional musicians which were the teaching staff at Hamilton and Alexandra college. And I had a singing student of mine, Medline and Meister performed the soprano to Starbuck murder and I performed the Alto part. And so that was the the settings for those two performances were in churches, one in Hamilton, one in Portland. And so the kids were able to come to that, which was really quite special for me because obviously, there's a certain amount of discipline and rigor that is involved in performing a 45 minute opera. That, like, I just rehearse, I was obsessed with it. I was obsessed with most of my projects anyway, musically, but there was I think the kids knew every single note of the opera by the time by the time I actually performed it. They had had heard it being rehearsed every hour of every waking minute of every day. So you Yeah, they, it was good for them to see that performance get put together. And then there's been a couple of other performances that they've been out. And most of them, though, are in pubs and wine bars and things like that. So it's not really suitable for the kids to attend. And I think it's certainly, because we're not famous enough to have our own roadies to do all the gigs set up for us. gigs where we're having to stuff the car with all the PA gear and transport it means that there's no room for children in the car. So those gigs I've been very fortunate to have my inlaws out at, but my kids have certainly seen me on bigger stages like the foreshore, New Year's Eve and, and that sort of thing, where I've had a proper tech crew and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, that's and they, I've talked to some parents whose children do that, do this. When you're stopped, your kids wouldn't be like that. And I think it's actually been, it's taken a long time for my daughter to decide that my music is actually okay. But there was a really special moment that I had, when my kids were doing swimming lessons at the local YMCA. And this is long time ago, right before the release of ombre anima, which was my debut album that I'd been obsessively working on the nine songs on that album. And so the kids had heard it all over the house, they'd had it in the car when I was dropping them off to school so that I could get an idea of what it sounded like on different speakers and all sorts of things. And they were very sick of it. And they were at the YMCA with school swimming lessons, and I had turned up with my laptop to sit on the side of the pool and do the good mum thing and watch my kids or pretend to watch my kids have swim lessons. And so I had my headphones in, and I had my laptop there and I was listening to music and rehashing different bars and that sort of thing to just see what what sort of mixing I'd need to adjust on it. Not an optimal mixing environment. I know. But I was. It was my first album, give me a break. And I had heard I heard over like it was so it's such a surreal moment. My kids were in the pool behind me. I was sitting was poolside and then all of a sudden on the PA system of the YMCA can blaring my song in the dark. And I didn't realize at first I was sick because I had headphones in and that was the song I was working on. I was like what's going on here. And I took my headphones out and I looked over and the local water aerobics class had chosen that song because they obviously knew I was there to do their water aerobics class. And so they just bled it at the top of their of their system through the YMCA and my kids borrow in particular was sitting in the pool doing a lesson and she's gone. That's my mom's song. And so I hear this this big, like all the water aerobics ladies started clapping me from the other side of the pool and then my daughter is gone. That's my mom's music. So I think she suddenly realized that it wasn't such an uncool thing to be like to write music and to actually have people listen to it. I think she finally realized that it was actually something that people enjoyed and that they appreciated. Even if she didn't Yeah, they often sing my stuff which is nice to hear to also realize that other people value what you're doing exactly yeah, that is the big that was the big moment but it was it was quite a special moment for me because I not only was it really quite surprising and confusing for me to have it not playing in my headphones and playing beside me. Yeah, to have just audiences from all like, in so many different ways in that moment. It was really nice. Quite a weird experience but yeah, that's the lesson story yeah I talk to all my guests about mom guilt and I put it in a quote. What how do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have have actually had a lot of flack over the years for I think I got I got told at One point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment. I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, we have to play small. Because otherwise we step on too many people's toes. And for me to sort of, and I really, it really graded with me, particularly that one, I think there was this idea that I was I was too old, or I was too, too aggressive, or I was too Ultra focused, and I needed to be sort of more. I needed to be more flexible on some things, which I actually didn't think I needed to be more flexible on because they were my standards. So I've had a lot of flack from that along the way. But I, as far as with parenting guilt and mum guilt. I think I've been amazingly lucky in that my husband not only understands music, so he had, he was a bit of a rock star before I met him. So he had been in bands for years. He plays everything. So he plays drums, bass guitar, sings writes music, and he reckons he can't play piano, but he can. He just doesn't play it as well as me. And so he considers that an abject failure because he's super competitive. But yeah, he I'm lucky that the two of us both being musicians value that highly so he could see the value in what I was doing. And I think I was kind of lucky that I could lord it over him a little bit in the beginning, because he, he had his Rockstar years when I first met him. And so that consisted of band practice two or three times a week, for hours, like come home at two in the morning. It was a bit of a boys club. They're great guys, but it was very much I was The Good Wife that just sort of let played second fiddle really to it. And I was pretty supportive, like I was I was very enthusiastic about his music, pushed his, but pushed him to really push himself with it was very supportive, most of the time of band prac. Because I had my own obsessions at the time I was writing to fitness and running and everything. So I just instead of playing music, I threw myself into that. Then we had babies. And of course I was the only way that I could really sort of have any time was with him musically, was to write softer, more folky sort of stuff that was just the two of us. So we, he, he was very present with all of that, although we we nearly ended up divorced a few times with writing music, because he's got very different writing style. To me, he's incredibly it's a, it's a good thing that we have those differences. But it took us probably about 10 years to work through it. He is very critical of everything that he does, to the point where he'll refine and refine and refine, whereas he can play a couple of notes to me, and I just see endless possibilities. And I roll with with my creative vision on it. And then he'll stop and start and go back and change. And it just pulls the rug. For me it feels like it pulls the rug out from under my feet when writing, but it's because he he doesn't have the same way of visualizing. And it was incredibly deflating to me over and over and over again, it was my fault because I didn't what was kind of that was anyone's fault. It was just a mismatch in how we wrote music together. And then when I started writing my own music, all of a sudden, we had this freedom where he would criticize what I wrote in a good way and I'll critique it, I should say, not criticize it. And I would take it on board and I would refine what I was writing and everything because it was my vision that I was working with. And because every now and then I would tell him to go shove is critiquing. And I didn't sort of compromise my what my vision for the song was. It took all the ego out of all the previous discussions and we're just suddenly like, I just I don't know, it was amazing. So he's very lucky that he's very supportive of my writing. He's not afraid to tell me if he thinks something should be made better, which is great, because a lot of my stuff on Lux is hugely involving of him. We've he's been very critical in a good way of what I've done. And then regarding the mum guilt thing. Occasionally he will be critical of how much time I have spent focusing on music instead of a family. But yeah, he's he's pretty good. With all of it. I think most of the time the criticism comes from other family members or other museums, really, that sort of don't handle my day directness, I think in my singularity of focus, which I think it is a bad thing sometimes, I think, my blinkers on with my family for a while, it definitely couldn't have endured forever. But I think I've been very lucky that I've been allowed to have a season where my dad just let me ride the creative. Talking about how you caught flack from people that had your style, I suppose. And your decisions, when you got that feedback? Does that drive you and make you? Yeah, yeah. So one of my songs on my debut album, ombre anima is entirely written because of that. It's called empty room. And I think it was, it was written in direct response to two people, I'm not going to name them because I don't think it's very nice of me. But basically, a big fu to some people that had criticize the way that I taught my performing art students, people that criticize the way that I was so uncompromising on certain things. And they, they actually saw that as a real character flaw rather than a positive thing as far as being disciplined and staying the course towards what you actually were trying to achieve. I think there are dreams where it does become a bad thing. But I don't think like I look at what I've achieved with, with, with my performing art students, and also with my music for such a, like, I've never had a grant paid to me, I've never had any sort of funding support from a label or anything like that. And I've still produced four albums, and been nominated for awards and won some awards and that sort of thing. So I think, I think considering all of that, I think I've done what I needed to do to do that. And I don't think that I've lost anything along the way, despite obviously upsetting a few people here and there that felt a bit threatened by it. Yeah, so that song that definitely inspires me to write, I wrote empty room about that, I think, would have lyrics to that song, there's little things I do, giving up of me, just to prove to you that there's somehow sunlight breaking through. So in other words, that whole verse is about me trying to prove to someone that I was a nice person inside. And giving up on what I actually wanted to do and needed to do in order just to prove to them that I was a nice person. And I just went nuts, I'm actually done with that, like, it feels like I'm living in a cage, screw all of you, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do what I need to do. And it took me I actually needed to work through it, it took probably a couple of days of being really, really like almost on the point of breakdown, I think I was really low from it, because I really felt like it was a I took it, I took it on board too much at first, and I believed them. At first I didn't instead of actually going hang on a minute, what's your motivation for having a crack at me? Instead of doing that I actually took on board what they said way too much. And then I think I think I just came to the realization that those people aren't my people. They don't get it. They don't support drive and ambition and the pursuit of making something the best that it can possibly be. And they don't take feedback very well either. Interestingly, so yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that that was where that comes from that Yeah, certainly I have been inspired by that. That's what I need. Maybe I need someone to help me and then I've run another. The other big thing that I like to explore is entity so and I'll put in air quotes again being more than just a mom, you're still listening. You're still musician. Louisa, you you have children, but you You're really strong on on maintaining your own see outside of being a mother? Yeah, definitely. I think that comes through in the themes of what I write as well, I. Yeah, my, a lot of what I've written is sort of autobiographical. Which is not to say that it's all about falling in love and having your heart broken, and that sort of thing, which is fine. Like those are, those are significant moments for a lot of people. And there's a reason why those sorts of songs resonate with so many people. But my music is often inspired by either just what I'm going through in the moment. So an example of that would be vinyl scratch on my album lacks where I was mucking around with some jazz stuff. And was really interested in just making a song entirely composed of jazz chords. And so I started mucking around with that, and I had a flashback of, because we're in lockdown, and we couldn't go anywhere. And it just sort of seemed like time was just dissolving in front of us. I wrote, I wrote about how music was timeless in that respect, like when you listen to music, you stop worrying about how long the song goes for or, or what you've what you've got going on. And so that was what vinyl scratch was about. So it's not necessarily a theme of, of a tragedy or whatever. But by contrast, as well, there's another song that I wrote, wrote on Lux, which was probably the biggest song I've ever written, maybe that's the reason why I'm not writing a lot now. It's called umbilicus. And that was probably the most autobiographical song I've ever done. It was about the death of my own mother. But in a way, the lead up to her death, as well. She had she had brain cancer. And so she was quite, quite ill for years prior to dying. And it was a very confusing time for me and my sister as teenagers trying to navigate being told that it was just us and it was just our attitude problems. And it was just, you know, what the reason we were finding life so hard was because we were teenagers. And it wasn't because we had someone who was mentally unstable, and entirely unpredictable and quite a difficult person to be around. It wasn't anything to do with that, like the outside world couldn't really didn't know a lot of what was going on. And so yeah, that was it's quite a painful song. It's called umbilicus. And so it's really about that connection between babies and mothers. And I think it's taken, it's taken me I'm 39 now it's a it took me 38 years to really be able to articulate what, what happened. Because it's not just about mom dying when I was 20. It's also to do with my identity because my my own biological father died when I was five weeks old. And so my whole life I've had questions. I found out about that when I was 11. And it kind of just erased 11 years of childhood identity for me when I found out my stepdad is an amazing man. And he was a great dad to me. He's a great dad to me still, but it was my identity that really just took a massive hit. When I learned I learned to have that And then of course mum, in the years after that was very confusing to be around. Yeah, so I think having children of my own in particular has informed a lot will have what happened with mum has informed a lot of the way that I parent with my kids, I'm unfortunately very much like my own mother. In a in a lot of firm ways with my kids I hear I hear her voice coming out of me when I tell them off with various things. And I think I have much less of a sense of humor these days, which is very much like my mum, I think she would just would have been so bloody tired. That that's where that lack of sense of humor comes along. Like my husband plays a lot better with my children than I do. Which I look at and I go, yep, that's my mum, to a tee. But yeah, that a lot of the negative things I went through with mum definitely inform the way that I parent, my kids, I've sort of don't ever want my kids to feel confused about who they are and who I am and, and what, what I really think I think my mum often toed the conservative line a lot of the time, just because that was what the neighbors would want her to do. And I don't think I'm like that at all. So those those little retaliations against, against what I've been through, I guess, coming out, and umbilicus is is a lot about, about that I sort of felt like there was a large level of deception going on, not because Mum was a liar. But because cancer and brain cancer turned her into someone that she wasn't. And she did lie when she was really ill, she would make up things and then remember things differently to how they actually happened and all sorts of really confusing stuff. And then try and tell you that you were wrong, because you're only 15? And don't answer back and that sort of thing. So it was it was a really, it was it was probably the most difficult thing that I've been through. And that comes out in that song. Do you children come out in new songs as well. That'd be quite a confronting thing to have to think about. Actually, I don't know that they do a lot. Yeah. Probably because my kids are a huge source of joy. For me. And they are, they are a joint project, I guess as well between me and my husband. And music for me is quite a selfish pursuit. So maybe I don't write them into my songs. For that reason. I certainly dedicate all the albums to them, because they have to listen to them in the car, when we're driving them to school. As I'm, as I'm writing albums, I have to listen to them over and over and over again, then they've certainly been exposed to them a lot that way. But yeah, I don't think I don't think I so much write my children into my songs. But I I am the person that I am. As the as a songwriter and an author lyrically, particularly in response to my to who I am as a mum and who my kids are. There's, there's a song I wrote called Boy Who Cried Wolf, which is quite a partly a political song. And it was written as part of the me to movement, when all these women were suddenly coming out and saying that they had been sexually assaulted or oppressed or prejudiced against because of not putting out or they've just been subjected to sexual abuse in their careers. And had we're now speaking up and I wrote that song, partly as being inspired by that movement, but also also probably as a as what I hope for my daughter, as well. I probably doesn't come across that personally in the song, but it's certainly like, I hope that my daughter never actually apologizes for who she is, and never never just submits because of who someone else is. I don't Yeah, I don't know if it comes across that personally in the song but yeah, but certainly I am I had hair in my mind when I was writing a lot of the time Jesus see graphs I'd love to write more, more jazz pieces I've been listening to. I'm sort of in that in that calm behind the wave of creativity at the moment where I'm listening to other people's music a lot. And vocally, I think there are some areas where I still need to build a bit of strength in my voice, which Yeah, I've been I've been pushing it certainly singing, singing different techniques and different types of music. So I'm really kind of focusing on all of that. So there might be some more cover. Cover work done, I think, if I can, if I can ever play again. But yeah, that maybe, maybe some more, I'll pop style music. I think I've been listening to a lot of Hayley Williams lately, just because she's got such an epic voice and trying to improve a bit of brightness at the top end of my voice, just listening to her and singing along with her stuff. And my husband has been very accommodating and playing a few few of her songs acoustically. So we've been wiling away a bit of the time, musically that way. I haven't hopped on the piano for a few weeks now, other than to play some classical stuff. I've just wanting to focus a bit on my tech, my technique. So I've been playing a bit of Mozart and a bit of yeah, there's some classical stuff. Just to try and get my speed up again. Is my fingers are actually for a pianist. I've got quite arthritic fingers. But yeah, it's alright. We'll improve again with a bit of practice. It's so lovely to see you. Thank you, sir. Likewise, I appreciate it. Thank you, given my kids an hour break from home school, which is nice as well. So yeah, they need it. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet

Bianca Richardson Australian illustrator, watercolourist and graphic designer S1 Ep22 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Bianca Richardson is an illustrator, watercolour artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier South Australia and mum of 2. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business, creating websites, logos and branding for clients, Bianca has maintained her own art practice, her favourite mediums being watercolour, ink and pencils as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog "Just Draw More Bianca" was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself, to just keep drawing! Her fun spark and humour shines through to this day with this name remaining as her online identity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety** Connect with Bianca on her website and instagram Follow along with The Portrait Project Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity for day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram and to get in touch with the podcast. All music used on this podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respect to the relationship that traditional owners have with this land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. My guest today is Bianca Richardson. Bianca is an illustrator, watercolor artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business creating websites logos and branding for her clients. Bianca has maintained her own art practice over the years, her favorite mediums being watercolor, ink, and paint shows as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog, just draw more Bianca was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself to just keep drawing her fun spark and humor shines through to this day, with this name remaining as her online identity. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast. Bianca Richardson. Thank you so much for coming on, Bianca. Thanks for having me, Alison. It's a pleasure. You're an illustrator and a graphic designer. How did you first get into that sort of creativity? When I was in high school, I guess I always loved drawing illustrating, and I, you know, ideally, I think I wanted to always be an illustrator, but I found that graphic design was the career I could follow up with those kinds of skills, and then maybe potentially look at illustration later on like I am. Now. I studied multimedia. So that was like a mix of like websites and a bit of animation and video and design work as well. So that's fell into that kind of career path. Like I had a few mentors in that field that, you know, inspired me and I took that on. And I've loved it, like graphic design has been great. But I've always had that urge to draw, like, I really enjoy drawing, I get a lot of satisfaction out of people enjoying my drawing. And I think the big turning point was in 2010 I started a blog just to keep myself going it was like a Blogspot blog just drove all the anchor I called it just to keep myself going. They had there's a project called illustration Friday that every Friday they'll bring out a topic and you draw anything based on that topic it was a really cool community. So I got into I get into that and then just sort of snowballed from it like I had I sort of have graphic design and separate am I drawing blog was separate two separate things. And then I think more so about four or five years ago clients started seeing my drawing work and wanting that included in the designers that kind of merged more there so slowly happened like it was a real slow burn it still isn't slaving but people wanting my art more than my graphic design lately is that that's that's really cool. Yeah. Touching on your the name that you that you give yourself just your more Bianca is that sort of like a message to yourself like I can't let it go now. I love it. Like I kept thinking I'll change my name because gone to my own name, but I'm like, I just love this. It's just so honest. Like that's what it was for me in 2010. And it still is now so just drum all the anchor. Did that sort of tie into any particular period in your life? Where was it around being a mum or? Yeah, was there any trigger for that that you you wanted to encourage yourself to draw more? No, it was pretty kids. My husband was mad about triathlons and Ironman at the time. So we started to blogs he was because because everyone kept asking us like how is Toby going with this training? So I had a blog how is Toby going? And it's brilliant. That's true. We go let's just check that little life stock of personality and humor like that, that interests me like I'm very I'm not. I'm not clean cut professional. Or be dork. I love that. I'm sure they'd be Yeah, there'd be plenty of people out there. You know that want you services that would be the same that bit of quirkiness that you know bit of fun and yeah, yeah, so really, yeah. relate to a lot of people I think what sort of mediums do you work in with you? I like good. pencils like regular pencils. Ink I love kind of ink. I love watercolor. More so the last few years I've really gotten into using procreate on my iPad. Like it's it's been convenient because I can take it anywhere. And it's lit up so I can do it at night. Once the kids go to bed. I can sit on the couch and coloring I can it's yeah, it's been really good for my lifestyle at the moment. I still like hand drawn with I love to actually draw on paper first and then transfer it across the iPad. And then color so it's a meet it's mixed radio, I guess is the classic term for let's launch it and talk about your family then you mentioned you you're able to do your procreate when the kids are in bed. How many children do you have? So I have two kids. I've got an eight year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. So bit of a gap between the two. I don't sleep that great. I don't really do that much work at night. But I like the idea of it. I think I use my iPad more driving around town for a daytime nap with my son out of pocket around the lake and get it out and do some coloring in. Yeah. My siblings were all five to six years apart. And like, I'm someone that needs my own space a lot. So I found like, I love the time my kids but I could my brain would explode if I had kids too close. I think I just I really Yeah, I I need my own time and I need sleep to be a better person. So yeah, please to the beautiful kids. I love them. It's a perfect fit for me. Yeah, good. Yeah. No sleep sleeps good sleeps important. So were you able to keep up with that after the birth of your first child? I was a bit of an idiot when I was lecturing at TAFE when I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was doing a semester so I decided to do one term before I had her and a term after thinking well, I'll be able to balance this out. I've done it. There's only six hours a week but my gosh, I went back when she was five or six weeks old. Three hour sessions and it was so hard like you know you breastfeeding so it's painful words your brain you have no brain it's just the mashed potato like it was just it was madness but in my head I had this idea that I've read all the books I'm at a pretty stable point in my life I'll be I'll be able to do all this and yeah, it was a massive Eye Opener it's one of those things you can't you can't really prepare yourself for Isn't it like like I said you can read the books but when you're actually in it, it's like it no one can even warn you about it because you take relief those books are a waste of time what those are very good burst skills or something. I had all these ideas like I'll take my stressful when I would take all these little things like I just lost. After you did that the summit stir when you returned back to TAFE were you sort of were you working on your own art as well at that time, or just focusing on your teaching? I did, I actually produced the calendar, like I was doing little desktop calendars. So I've managed to she was born in September, so I managed to get one out for Christmas time, which was pretty amazing. I had her laying on the floor in the office. I tried to do a little bit so I just think it helped my brain even though coming back from having a kid or having both times to get a computer and like, I don't know what to do anything anymore. Like, you know what form I can't remember anything like it takes me way longer than what it should it's just like becoming a new person again, it's really it's a really weird feeling. Just feel brand new. So did you run it? Sort of important then to get back into doing stuff for yourself? Was that something that that you wanted to do? You were focusing on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess growing up like I drew that was my thing, just my time out my relaxing thing to do. So I need it in my life. Like I find if I don't even just a little quick sketching session. It's just something to get out. If I really feel wound up or don't move away. I need I need to use it like it's it's just my my time. And as clearly that my daughter is quite creative. So when she was young, she was always wanting to do stuff with me would collaborate and paint paper and collage stuff. And so fun. And like even now, Ultra, I'll be doing a client job. Normally, I've left it out on the table, and she'll come by and draw a picture next to me. Just this is excellent. Oh, God. Actually, I think I saw that on Instagram the other day that you posted something you're working on. And then there was your daughter's picture. That's wonderful, isn't it? And it's like she's seeking it out from you. It's like you're not. I mean, I know you would do it. But you're not saying Come on, come and do this. It's like she's actually you know, she's the one instigating it. So that's really lovely. Yeah. What about sorry, God. But I was glad to have a creative kid. Yeah. What about your other little one? Hey, likes to join in. So we'll get the day we painted baubles for the Christmas tree. We do a lot of bits and pieces. But I remember a few a few months ago my daughter had gone to the dentist has had a procedure coming up she was nervous about so she ended up drawing a picture of her mouth that was open with teeth and other dentists instruments just for her to cope with it. Oh, no, that was really clever way about using art to deal with feelings. And then my son comes along and he liked it it was a dental instruments that she designed just you know, his mouth just seemed great. But how mature is that though? Like she's got a real gift, hasn't she? That's what she does. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty special to you what is your day to day sort of art life or artwork? Clients? How does that sort of look today? As you as you move through each day, I majority of my work at the moment is my design work. I have a couple of days of daycare. So that was really good. I was really funny about daycare. My first I just found I was scared of the germs. I was scared of everything. So she did family daycare this time around. I was working in that and it was just mental because I still have to do school pickup. So there was like I had to have a nap by certain time to get working. And it was very, very, very, just it was silly, but I've had my son in daycare or childcare this year, and it's for two days. Wagan it's been so helpful. Like, even though today I left him and he's upset, which is sucky, but it just helps. I don't know like I've got a block of time now to work. So I do majority graphic design work. I still try and fit in my illustrations at the moment, the Christmas coming up and doing a lot of help home portrait commissions. That's my little outlet, the art is good. And I get enough satisfaction by doing people's memories at the moment that I've built. I've got a fix in my illustration fix going on. Yeah, I got like some other projects in line with April, Hague set up this portrait project that I'm part of, for the next six months with a group of like, 10 other women and I just signed up to that I thought, you know, I need just good to learn new things and meet new people. And yeah, out of my comfort zone. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I was actually chatting to Julia, yesterday, we recorded her podcast, and she was telling me about it. And I thought that sounds amazing. Because it's gonna be, it's gonna be incredible for people like Julia said, she doesn't paint portrait, so it's going to be challenging for her put her out of her comfort zone. And it's okay, it's going to be amazing to see everyone's different styles and everyone's take everybody's take on on everybody else as well. But I did put out to receive how you're gonna feel about having your head out in the world. Yeah. That's a bit confronting, sort of, do you feel better? Are you okay with that? I do. I'm very, I wasn't very self conscious person. I guess I'm working on it. So I'm trying to be like, oh, like I'm choosing I think, to do myself. So it'd be an exploration of myself. So I can just extract as I want. Yeah, I'm looking like you might look like nothing. Someone completely did. The back of my head. Hey, that's cool. Yeah, there you go. We find it's really it's really out of the comfort zone. But there's no undo button when I'm, I don't just do a painting. So it's gonna be fun. That's really exciting. It was amazing models in the group to like, it's yeah, you're working alongside some really, really talented people. So there's heaps to learn? Yeah. Do you get daunted at all by that? Or do you just straight out see it as just an email? I was like, I went and spoke to Juliana, like, I don't know, like, I'm not an artist. I felt like she was like your dig? For me, and I'm like, what about that to lose? Like, she's asked me, I'm just like, yeah, that's, you know, I've always just downplaying myself, I was like, Oh, you just do you know, but I enjoy that that sort of is a fine artists all look good for you. I'm, that's, I'm really pleased you're doing it. Because like, personally, I like I love your style of drawing. And I think that's the thing with that, like, there's so many different styles and so many different ways of representing things. And like, this is something I'm learning to, as I go go through this project, just sit, you can do whatever you want. You know, like, there's no, there's no limits on stuff. And it's so liberating and, and amazing. So yeah, no, I'm glad you're doing it. Like I like to say I can't wait to see everybody's it's gonna be awesome. Because I do follow you on Instagram, I see the houses pop up. When someone gives you a photo of a house, it's obviously special to them. Do you sort of take that take that on board? You know, when you're, when you're illustrating? Does that sort of seep into you a bit that emotion and the connection? Yeah, absolutely. And I try and ask them things that make that home the home. Like, if you're taking a photo that's recent, it won't have things that they you know, the special flower or there was a special chair at the front or you know, there's a bird that regularly visits like all those things. Make it the home. Yeah, so I'm doing now at the moment, there's heaps of like, I'm actually doing one that's the 70s home in Queensland. So they're going back over old photos and doing the home back in the day and it's really cool. I just, I love hearing people's memories. Like I don't know, I really it's fulfilling so I'm, yeah, I'm gonna really focus next year on pushing it a bit more on getting a website that's up just years kind of fell in my lap at the moment. We're not feeling like I've worked for it, but it's like I haven't quite streamlined yet, but I will focus on that next year. Yeah, really? really love it like a lot of sense that satisfaction out of it. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally relate to that. I think it's it's really special and then I guess the people couldn't appreciate that the amount of work that's gone in not just the the physical drawing of the work but you know the effort that you've put into it to find out these other details and yeah, it's really special. Yeah, make sure no one requests horses in this table over this just have to like swishing that's really cool Do you have family around you in the mail? Like, do you have support, you know, down at Millison, or, you know, people around you that can can help you when you, you're trying to get work done. And, you know, you just need the kids out to be here. My family, my parents are still in Millison. And my in laws live in medical area, and my sister lives in the area. So I call on all them a lot. And lately, I've got a lot to just because it's coming close to the deadline time for the year. But they're all really helpful. But I'm very, very lucky to have a support network like I do. And I've got a good relationship with my mom and sister that I you know, I asked them everything, anything, you know, it's, it's good, it's really helpful. And my sister actually, she had her first child 13 days after I had my second and we've like, got, you know what it's like we forget everything about having a baby, that she's been really helpful, which is actually a good I didn't have a mother's group again, the second time around, she was a good friendship for me to have because you just become lost again, like you're going back. You're my other friends have all had their second kid or whatever, or no kids and they're just, you know, at that level, we're all going back to newborn land. They're having my sister was so helpful. Celia, she's still reminds me of things. I just overlooked, I guess. That's about 10 of us, we still catch up where we can like they really were just good people. You're like me because I would wrap up to a mother's group. And I had to go to TAFE after the lecture, so I'd be all dressed up ready to go to TAFE which is like you just looked like you had your life so together like that's funny that's heavy and honestly I just shit scared like what am I doing? What am I do we have perception of me or these new mom who just had a life all sorted and was able to like rocked going to the work and it was not like that. That perceptions and interesting thing, isn't it? It's it's just you see this little snippet of someone and you think you've, you've got it all worked out. Because you only told me like a year or so ago. What that is so funny. So like, if what do you think that's the same with social media, like people say people's posts, and think, oh, wow, their life must be perfect. They look like they've got their life together. Yeah. Me when I'm feeling not great. I can't handle it. I have to go on big following moments. I just can't like I know. I know that. It's all a glossy highlight reel. But just when you're not feeling level, it's not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah, it's gonna be more. Hey, people have to be more real, like. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's like, it's like, what? What's the words? Like? It's like, Who are you trying to impress? Why do you think you have to do this? Why do you think you can be honest, and, you know, just show life as it is. And we all can go? Yeah, we agree with that. You know, it's weird. It's very odd these days anyway, because people were trying to get the most likes, so comments, so you know, views it's all about that now. It's very it's a very weird place. Like it's not just, I'm just here doing my thing. But most artists I follow are just like, I'm just gonna keep posting as I do. And it's awesome because their work is just wicked and it's normal. It's not trying to get it's not trying to you know, be viral out there for that little minute of fame like it's Yeah, download my group I think yeah, it's very genuine. Like yeah, yeah. Creating like you're not always it's not like you can have something to show every week or twice a week like they sort of want you to do is ridiculous like, you know at the moment all these homes I can't show you because their Christmas presents. Yeah have upgraded stolen I can't show because they you know early days of like some really cool stuff out because I have nothing really to show, but I'm just, you know, do what I can. Oh, yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure, I think that some people probably have to put on themselves to just be noticed. And yeah, everyone works in peaks and troughs, you'll have your moment. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? It's like some days and eight when, like, you know, goes hand in hand with your creativity, I suppose. Like, I mean, different for your situation where you actually got to work, you're doing a job. It's like, some days you would go, I don't want to do this today. I don't feel in the headspace. There's nothing creatively coming out of me. What do you do then on those days when when you do have a like a deadline? How does that sort of work? Created deadlines? Or crap? Oh, okay. Well, go go graphic designs. You just go play out for my first job out of study was working at a local magazine. So let to work really quickly. So even if i I hate being rushed, I you know, if someone says to me a sap that was like, serious, like, just, it's the worst thing to do, because you just, I can't do it quickly. But I hate that pressure. But I can do this. I just think I can do it. But you just don't get the best result. Because you can't have it all. You can't have the best product ASAP. So I still I get it done. I meet deadlines. I just might not be as satisfied as I could be. You've got to think about it a bit more. But with my permission deadlines, I've I've padded them out so much. Because you know like when you're a parent, your life's not just about you. It's about like to other people in the family, your husband as well. So it's up to you know, if one of them falls sick, that throws the whole balance out of my life, because that's what it is. So I've had it out heaps of time in between everything to make sure I can still reach the printer deadline for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. It's just yeah, you have to plan because I don't know like, so far so good. We're all healthy. But I'm always worried about sending him into Chipotle, like, oh, my gosh we're just getting tired, like the weekends are getting a bit busier. And I think last week, he just started slowly getting a bit more sad than today actually cried as I was leaving, not usually it's a bit after I leave. I know. I'll check soon on the app, and he'll be playing and hopefully okay, but yeah, it's it's hard to clear that headspace to get to work. And I find that's the hardest part, I'll feel in a slump, you'll get a copy. And then I might just try and ease into it. Like I just I lose productivity because I feel trapped for doing it. But yeah, that that's leading into the sort of mum guilt topic. How do you feel about mum guilt? Oh, it is real. It is definitely, I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing this blah, blah. And it's like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her out a lot that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own, like, where you're being critical of others, where you're like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. You can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle. to juggle isn't it? It's a constant juggle. That is, I guess that ties into the identity topic that I that I talked about, too is that you do have to have something for yourself that you're going you do. And I do like I think I worked out like I my time out when I was younger was drawing and just I was a pretty like hit in the clouds kind of kid I must always had like a little bit of anxiety. So I'll draw and chill out. Until once I became a parent and had a few other triggers in my life and I wasn't drawing as much I realized, Oh, I do carry anxiety. I just have to find my way of dealing with it because I was guest I was always able to do it myself before without having a distraction of a kid. So to me it's just a like a peaceful, peaceful place to go like I you know, I've had a pretty you know, come by in life but it just it's my little. I overthink I'm a big worrier. Like, you know, I'm petrified of my kids getting sick. I know. It's not a big deal, but for me taking my son to childcare is a sign that I can do it. So I How much of both like, yes, you can do these? Like, you know, like, there's germs, but there's not always germs. You know? Yeah, it's all those things to make me get over my fears. Yeah, I think you know, and like drawing, I don't think you could, you know, people who don't feel creative understand, but we need these don't worry, like it's just a little, you know, you need that time to just, yeah, it's good. It's like you've got, you've got yourself medicated, you know, this is your therapy to work through, you know, like you said, you know, your life, your life's great, you know, but whatever goes on between the ears is like, you have to deal with that in some way. It might not be affecting, you know, what's going on outside, in your home, everything's going great. But you've still got to sort this out for yourself. So yeah, using that as your therapy, to sort of, to give yourself a break to work through things, and then you come back fresh and ready to go again, you know, for the onslaught. Yeah. I was thinking, my major feeling sometimes of working, and art and kids. Feeling is frustration. And that's how we're thinking about it. Like, I think I was, because I get ideas and I want to act on them. Like, I'm not gonna go do this thing. You can have a whole weekend of just having an art retreat, frickin awesome. But I could ask and get that and get the sitter's and do it. But at the moment, I don't feel like I'm ready to do it. But yeah, this is finally I'm starting to do something like oh, you know, someone needs you know, it's just that flow. You don't quite get that stage as much anymore. But it's that point in my life. And I know that things change. And they'll be time and the kids don't want to talk to me for a week so we to call for me so my dad always said to me, like don't wish your life away because when we're second was a newborn. I was just like, let's just get 12 weeks. I know the first four weeks the hardest. I've countdown like eight weeks. Yeah, we're nearly there over halfway. Like, I was kind of, I was kind of wishing it away. Then I looked at my daughter because she was in reception at the time. And I'd look at it and like she has grown so much in this face. Like oh, here I am wishing this time away because I'm like, This is so hard. I just feel like a zombie then I look at her and I'm like she's changed so much like just slow down. So now I'm sort of got that you know, it's all phase I can I break it down to this is what it is like, I still am frustrated quite a lot, but I just have to Yeah. Isn't it it's like Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know how we do it. Honestly. It's just a It's screwing with your head every single day. Yeah. Sad you how you carry their sadness that you carry. Everything that's really it's really intense. Sometimes. You have a good run, you're like this is great. This is good. Yeah, to just get up and to go somewhere would be such a privilege. Like you know, I can't I get I think it was employment, that's for sure. Like my husband wanders while we get out when the dishwasher has been stacked so shapely because in the morning, then I have to then reclaim them. And I'm like, Well, this is time like in the morning. It's just like, bing bing, bing, bing. Have you brushed your teeth? You don't need any like, it's just you just the robot. I try like I try and get up earlier. I still get woken up for the night so I maximize my sleep like yeah, that's my that's what I need. Yeah, it's just it's a different life. Like as soon as you become a mom, it's just I don't know like it's a massive, massive shift in your life. You're so responsible for other people and still yourself you know, because you don't want to let yourself go when you have kids. I love how you put that I love seeing the kids be close to their family because I grew up like one side of my family's Italians is a quite a big family caught up all the time like Sunday lunches every Sunday. It was you know they did my grandparents, those family that were important to them. So yeah, I've always grown up with lots of cousins and the other side to like always close cousins as well. There had heaps of cousins and my poor kids. They've got one cousin he might give you because the rest of the Victoria is still walk away FaceTime, but it's you know, I was so grateful for the dynamic they get they get to the grandparents here at least which is good because it helps. I don't know, it's family and friends are different. It's yeah, they're very lucky. Yeah, yeah. And it's lovely to see your own parents, as grandparents. I love that. Watching my dad with my kids and thinking oh, he would have told me off for that but he's laughing Do your children influence your work at all? Yeah, they do. So when my eldest, I would always do a lot of things based on what she was learning. So I observed her in the, in the yard and she'd be wearing her like hooded towels and kids were just speaking on the painted stick. Like, we were painting the sticks. And she was like a little saucer. And it made me laugh so much. If you're a picture of her, then I'd draw a picture of her. And that point of time, we like all the questions you'd ask like, little picture, there's always speech bubbles, like we're going to Bunnings and all the random stuff. I always say. I'll just call it old memories for me. So I kind of I'm not very good at their photo albums. I've got them but I don't I find during a memory for me makes it more fun. So I'm actually my little nieces and nephews, etc. I've been drawing them at this point in their life for their birthdays. Oh, that's a little like keepsake of time for them. Yeah, that's so special. Yeah. So hope I've been, I would have to get a bit better at making people look like the people will be more I can see your real future for that. If you put that out into the world. There'll be so many people that would would pay for that for their kid. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, I find it hard because I cannot unless I know the person to helps me work out how to draw them. I find it tricky. Like I did my brother recently. And I found that hard, and he's someone that should really know how to draw. But I think about the life was pretty close. Yeah, I find that Yeah. I was like a certain kind of character. I draw like really, like long, tall, you know, big round heads. So I've got off sort of, you know, keep working on my character developments. Practicing just drawable. Do your children I mean, your daughter, does she? How does she feel about seeing yourself in those drawings? Is she get super excited? And yeah, she laughs Yeah. He or she regularly draws family pictures like and, you know, she goes through and changes their hair every year. She's a certain hairstyle. She'll draw characters like her or her makeup. She does. Yeah, it's a sort of a self. Kind of funny word. You know, that is like an exploration of yourself that you'll hear that point in time with who you are. So yeah, I think she doesn't find it embarrassing at the moment. So that's good. Yeah. That journey with a boyfriend and Darcy moon. Yeah. loves that. He loves seeing that too. Like he, he loves the art side of things like seeing the family pointing everyone out. And yeah, yeah. So hopefully I've just I'm not giving him a nod to just saying I got to be creative. So yeah, let's see, just find that see what happens. So I was doing my design work. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all very, like, clean, you know, as design is like, clean vektory style. And I had a client, male at the old jail. And she's, I was doing their branding. And then she goes to me at one point, she's like, Oh, we want to have an illustrated map down of the jail and like, okay, cool. But I kept the first few designs I was doing was just much you know, I was doing it very graphic designer, like straight lines. Is that like the ad and make it more like you're like, we love it, but we want it to be like your style. Yeah. Okay, so that make it a little bit looser, which is like no, no, no, like, oh, you watercolor stuff you do on Instagram. We love that. So next minute, I just did inky watercolor. And it's exactly what she wanted. So she sort of made me realize that it doesn't have to be two separate entities anymore. Like it's not just design and illustration that can combine. It was realized really thankful to that because I just kept sort of thinking I'll just keep drawing for my own fun. And it's not going to cross over but majority of my work now They were going off. They want the illustrative aspect in their design. So, yes, she was the defining moment, that's for sure. I think it was about four or five years ago. And grateful because he sort of pushed me. Yeah. And a lot push because males are so odd, which is awesome. Oh, yeah. She kept she kept prodding, like, Oh, like this, you know, I like to try to wake up and I'm like, yeah, right, like people want this as cool. I have a project that I can't really say much about yet. Which is very exciting, because it's something will be super interesting, a massive learning curve for me. And yeah, I'm excited about doing it and lots of fun work. So that's happening next year, I was in the early early stages of planning now, I always have side projects going on, because that's a sound my brain rolls. Like, plans one day to do some project about the buildings. I love drawing as well. So I'm just slowly working out a project plan on that and how to attack that in the future. But I just keep that to the side, just slowly chipping away while I do my design work. Excellent. And always, always drawing. Just draw more Bianca. And every time I write that I have a little I have a little moment of like, oh, you know, yes, I can't let it go. I was like, Oh, I changed it to be accurate, just boring. But I just, I can't let go of that because it's exactly how I talk and how I've talked to myself like it's, it's me, so it makes me laugh. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us at the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Lisa Sugarman US writer S2 Ep57 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Lisa Sugarman, a writer and mum of 2 grown daughters from that famous town of Salem Massachusetts, USA. Before having her children Lisa was a newspaper (news and feature) reporter, writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa was a teacher for 15 years in local school system, as a class room teacher, coach administration and one-on-one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older and she working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. in 2009 her column "It Is What it Is" became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This lead her to the opportunity to write books, full of content the helps and inspires families, and in particular mothers, and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. Let the mistakes happen and embrace them. This lead her to the radio in Boston for many years. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, suicide + the death of a parent ** Lisa lost her dad to suicide when she was 10 years old, but didn’t find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later. Now, because of that life-changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention and she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQIA+ community. She lives by the motto "It’s okay that life is messy…because we're all a work in progress." Today in addition to my regular topics, we end up talking a lot about social media, and the role it has played in creating 'helicopter parenting'. and the affects of its portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and parenting expectations. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Lisa's website / The Vomit Booth Read about the Salem Witch Trials We mention the Uvalde School shooting and The Beaumont Children Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman.I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me it really is an absolute privilege and an honor that you've chosen to listen to my podcast. My guest today is Lisa Sugarman. Lisa is a writer and a mum of two grown daughters from that very famous Town of Salem, Massachusetts in the United States. Before having a children Lisa was a newspaper, news and feature reporter writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa spent 15 years working in local schools as a classroom teacher, a coach in administration, and a one on one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older, and she was working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. In 2009 Her column it is what it is, became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This led to the opportunity to write books full of the content that helps and inspires families and in particular mothers and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. This led Lisa to host her radio show in Boston for many years. This episode contains discussion around mental health and suicide and the death of a parent. Lisa lost her dad Jim to suicide when she was 10 years old. But she didn't find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later when she was 45. Now because of that life changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention. And she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQ plus community. She lives by the motto. It's okay that life is messy, because we're all a work in progress. Today amongst the usual topics I like to discuss, we end up talking a lot about social media and the role that it's played in creating helicopter parenting, and the effective it's portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and our parenting expectations. The music you'll hear today is from my trio, LM Joe, which is made up of myself, M Anderson, my sister and her husband, John, we play new age and ambient music. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page. Alison Newman dot net slash podcast. Thanks so much for coming on today. Lisa, it's a real pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So you're in America, we're about to you. So we live about 15 miles north of Boston on the east coast of the country. And we're in this cute little, semi famous city of Salem. Wherever you might be in the world, you can recognize that name, because it's got a lot of history attached to it. So we just we just moved actually from my hometown about a mile down the road. A little a little sea coast town and the birthplace of the American Navy. We just moved out maybe nine months ago, we just our girls are grown women now and we didn't need a house in any particular neighborhood anymore. And we just kind of took advantage of the crazy real estate market and sold and moved down the road. So we're in Salem. Oh, very good. So you're getting yourself set up in that special little town is it how many people live there? Is it very big Salem? In Salem? Um, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that at this point. I know the exact population but it's a pretty densely populated city and it's it's fairly Large. So there are definitely, definitely a lot of people i We live in an area of Salem that's kind of not in the hustle, we're a little bit removed from where people who are tourists would typically come to see and everything involving the witch trials. And, you know, you know all of that history you would go maybe two or three miles away from where we are, but it's a pretty it's a pretty densely populated little city. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think that pretty much everyone that's listening, probably recognize the name and the connections and the history. Yeah. I remember reading the crucible in year 11, or 12. Yeah. Yeah, that's something like we obviously have our own sort of histories here. But we've got we've got nothing sort of along those lines. So it's really fascinating to sort of, and I don't know how much of that is really true, either. Like, is there a bit of sort of folklore that goes along with? Yeah, there's, there's, there's some lore attached to it, for sure. And it's definitely I'm sure been embellished over the years, but I think, you know, so much of it, believe it or not, is, is actually very true. And it's been very well documented. And I mean, we haven't taken the tours since I was in grade school. And we would, you know, we would always, it would always be like a little junket to Salem to, you know, kind of take advantage of all that history. That's there. So I mean, I, I know that, you know, there is there's a lot of truth, kind of woven into all of those legends as well. So it's, it's a pretty deeply historical spot with so much significance. And it's neat, especially around October, Well, depends on your perspective, if you're from here, you want to be as far away from here as possible. If you're not here, like the entire world seems to converge on Salem, for the month of October. So everybody that that I know, knows to stay far away, because it's a little chaotic. Yeah. It's also kind of cool that everyone was, would be really interesting. Living in a place like that. So tell us a little bit about yourself lay. So what you do what you've done, I guess you can expand for as long or as short as you wish. So the floor is yours. Yeah, I appreciate that. So first and foremost, I mean, I'm I'm a mom, I have two very grown daughters, my youngest just turned 22. And our oldest is turning 25 in another few weeks. So I've been at it for a while that a little motherhood game. I was a teacher in our local school system for many, many years, probably close to 15 years and wore a lot of different hats in kind of in that role was a classroom teacher was a coach worked in administration was a one on one aid supporting just individual children with special needs over the years. So I had a really, really big open wide lens to really kind of view the parent child relationship, that that whole dynamic, the way the whole family system works, the way kids are, are educated and supported. So that's kind of what tracked me over toward what I've been doing most recently, in the last decade or so. I've always been a writer. So before I had children, I was a newspaper reporter for many, many years and wrote for magazines here in the US, and this way pre pre internet and that whole explosion. And we kind of took a break, or I took a break from that and stayed home and raised our daughters. And then it's just so funny how, how things happen. So unexpectedly, like you're you're tracking in one direction, and then you get an opportunity. And it kind of puts you on a on a totally different path. And that's what happened to me. I was working in the school systems. And just for fun, I started writing again, I had never written a column in my life, I was always a news and feature reporter and I just for fun started contributing to my local paper, because I had had some pretty deep connections there when I was in college. And they're always asking, you know, these these little hometown newspapers or I was desperate for people to, you know, to give them content. So I just started writing about what I was living at the time and what I was living with parenthood. So I started writing. And little by little, it just started catching on and people started responding really well to it. And it just birthed this whole brand new career. So the column was syndicated, it's called it is what it is. And it was just syndicated throughout this media organization, it was all over the country and then it kind of, you know, by virtue of the internet, it goes all over the world. So that happened for men. I've got like 12 years 11 or 12 years I was writing the column I still do and from time to time less so because I started focusing on books. And that led me to the opportunity to write books. And I've written a few of them, parenting focused all about kind of how to embrace your perfectly imperfect, this is really the easiest way to understand it. Let the mistakes happen, embrace them, and, and really kind of find the good nuggets that are within that. And then that kind of led me to the radio, and I ended up on the radio for a couple of years here in Boston. And so it's just, it's just been this, this really cool little flow of opportunities that have all kind of centered around creating content that helps support and inspire families and in particular moms. So that's, that's kind of the long answer to the How did I get to this point? And what kind of stuff do I do? So? Yeah, I still very much enjoy writing parenting content, although I've kind of shifted my focus a little bit. And I'm doing a lot of mental health advocacy, and suicide awareness and prevention and doing a lot of speaking and, and writing about that as well. So that that's, that's all interrelated, because it really, it impacts our kids an awful lot. And, you know, it's important to start and have those conversations. So that's kind of what I'm doing now. Yeah, right. So with your books, do you sort of draw on your own personal, like things that have happened to you, things that you've learned, or, I don't know, wish you'd known that kind of stuff? Yeah, that's exactly where it comes from. That's, that's where everything, just about everything that that I've done has come from, it's all anecdotally based. So it's really just either, you know, stories and experiences from my own childhood, or from, you know, the experience of raising my own children. And all of that experience being in the school system, both in the classroom and kind of in the administration role, and working with parents and kids so closely, and I just started seeing, you know, I started seeing such a pattern with parents and with children and parents were just getting so overwhelmed by this, this invisible need to be the perfect parent to have the perfect kid to make sure that they didn't make any mistakes, to make sure that their kids never fell on their face to make sure that, you know, there was no struggle. And in doing that, and it was all based from a place of love and caring for their children. But they were absolutely crushing their kids with these crazy expectations of how they should behave and what they should accomplish and how, I guess how, just how perfect they should be. And and it was it was really debilitating. And you can see the kids being affected by that and such negative ways. Kids kids couldn't couldn't build resilience, because they couldn't do things for themselves. They weren't allowed to do things for themselves. So I just started voicing my opinion, I guess, is what you could say about how counterproductive I thought that was. And that we really need to let our kids figure it out by failing by trying one way doesn't work. You go another way and, and it just really stirred up. You know a lot in me in terms of wanting to help parents understand that they don't have to be perfectly you can give yourself permission to trump the balls. And, you know, to kind of embrace that madness because parent parenthood, like if you can't laugh at parenthood, then you're in the wrong job, you know, yeah, that's it, isn't it? I've got just after you've said that, I've got that many things I want to ask you. I've got so many questions, I can take you in lots of different directions. So I'm gonna go, let's go. I'm gonna go with so talking. I mean, the phrase that sort of comes to mind when you're talking about that, that method of parenting, that helicopter parenting where you've always got to be over the top of your kids making sure things go right. Like you said, they don't. They don't get that chance to build their resilience because they don't get the opportunity to fail and experience Is that sort of emotions and that sort of stuff? I wonder, because often we talk about different generations and how they were parented and the sort of norms that were around, then, when do you think things started to really change and become this different way of parenting? Because I remember, as a kid, you know, being allowed to go out for most of the day, ride my bike around the neighborhood, do all this sort of stuff. And now it's like, oh, no, you can't do that something will happen to you like, when did that start to change? Do you think and what might have brought about that change? You know, it's funny that you should say that because I talk about that with my daughters, what we you and I have had similar experiences. The town that I grew up in this little coastal Harbor Town, just north of Boston, a mile from where I am right now is just this little peninsula town, surrounded by a harbor, four square miles, we would get on our bikes, there were train tracks, paths all around town, where you could get to and from one end and the other and that's all we did, we would be outside until Billy Fallon's mom rang the bell or blew the slide whistle and like the whole neighborhood would scatter and go home because they knew it was time to go home. But we out for like a second the sun came up. And we'd be on the path and we'd be downtown, we'd be in the harbor, and, and my kids, my kids were bike riders, not to that same degree. But they were the kids playing manhunt. I don't know if it's manhunt is a game that that, you know, it's it's tag, it's just like, all throughout the neighborhood and in the trees and in the fields and whatnot. So it still existed when my kids were young, but I feel like I can't say that there was a catalyst, like, I don't necessarily know that I can say, okay, that at that exact time, because of that exact event, everything shifted. But I do think it was somewhere in between our generation and my children's generation, where, you know, I think, I think meet the social media influence has just brought so much fear, it's done so much good. But it's also done so much damage. And I think that, with that constant connection, and that constant flood of information, and news and, and trauma, we're all living through trauma. I mean, look, no further. I don't know if the news has arrived yet. Of what happened in Texas. Okay, so, and I'm really my heartbreaks. For you guys over there. It's just shocking. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, as as someone who taught for so many years, and as the mom of two daughters, both of whom are teachers currently. You know, it's hard, I have so many teacher friends, and just a mom, and anyone who, of course, especially as a parent, can just hear that, that situation about those those poor children and those teachers who were killed. And it's just, it's devastating. And it's like, but we the reason why I'm bringing that up is because the second that happened, the world knew about it. It was everywhere. It was on, it was buzzing on every phone and every tablet on the planet. And so everyone is sharing in that trauma, everyone is experiencing that fear. Everyone is making plans because of it to protect their children. What else can I layer around my child? How else? How better Can I bubble wrap my child and my family and my world. And so we've got those influences in ways that we never had them before. So on the one hand, having something like social media or a phone or the ability to connect with your kids, when they're off in the world, is great, because it's kind of like that umbilical cord is still partially connected. And that's a comforting feeling. But I think we've leaned too heavily into that, to the point where everything is about instant gratification now. Why is my kid not texting me back? What happened to them? Did they get hit by a car? Did they get abducted? Did they I mean, like, so I think that you know, there's a there's a good side and a bad side to this whole social media phenomenon. But I think that, that right there. If I were going to point to one thing that has really done more damage, it's that because now everyone's hearing from every possible angle in the world. What could happen to your kid if you let them out the door? Yeah, you know, and so I think because of that, we've just, maybe our generation, my generation, I guess, has just clamped down an awful lot harder. Out of fear. Yeah. Yeah, it's very fear driven, isn't it? It's that need to keep people safe or stop, stop the bad thing happening or stop them from feeling upset or bad or, you know, emotions that we see as negative or that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't want to talk about bad stuff. But as an example, there was years and years ago in Australia, there was some children abducted though, called the Beaumont children. And for years and years and years. That was like the only, I guess, episode of that nature that we all knew about it. This was back in the 60s, I think. And so you know that that thing you're saying about, we're all connected now. Any everything in anything that happens? We all hear about it. So there probably was other stuff going on, but we just didn't know about it. Yeah. So once we know about it, we'll go Oh, no. And yeah, go into that fury action. I'm glad you brought up social media, because that was something I was going to ask you about this notion of perfection, the the way that now because we see this curated version of people's lives, we not everybody, but a lot of people want to present the very best of themselves on social media, you know, which is fair enough, I suppose you want to even want to look good or whatever, but unrealistic, to the point where, you know, it's really not reflective of people's lives. And so it's giving off this false sense of perfection. So then everyone else that's consuming that information, starts to think, oh, no, I must be doing something wrong. My life doesn't look like that. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of you agree with? Oh, yeah. Not only do I Gree with it, but I talk about it, often, I write about it even more often. And I really appreciate the fact that you use the word curate, because when I do talk about it, that is always my go to word. Because that is exactly what's happening. People, people are filtering or curating the best of the best of the best. And in most cases, and I mean, you know, there, I think there's now a happy to see now that there seems to be a little bit of a shift, where people are like, No, that's bullshit. Why am I doing that? Why am I why? Why are we only putting this facade out there? It's this veneer of what's you know, of what we think people want to see or what we want to project. And I think people are getting tired of it quickly, because it's sending such a, you know, such a damaging message. And it's creating, you know, we fall as parents into such a comparison trap, and I write about this, my co author and I write a lot about this, in our most recent book, we have an entire chapter devoted to not know, not falling into this comparison trap. And I think the biggest, the biggest suck into that trap, is what we're seeing on social media, and we really can't avoid it. I mean, do you know, do you honestly also know, a human being at this stage of life that does not have some kind of a device? I mean, unless it's like a newborn. And even I think the newborns, there must be like a newborn tablet or something, right? And they give you this push on. So I mean, it's like, granted, you know, people use things to different degrees. And not everybody who has social, you know, social media is on Instagram, and not everyone is part of Facebook or not, but the majority are, and, you know, when you're in that world, it's impossible to avoid seeing what's being put out there. And when you, you look at that, and you start comparing yourself to that, it's, I don't want to use the word traumatizing because I think that that might be a little bit of a strong word to use, but it's it definitely leaves a mark on you. If you're like, Well, wait a minute, like, how come that mom of 12 children is so beautifully, like she's perfect looking and dressed, you know, dressed like to the, to the nines, and she's, you know, she's she's driving her SUV and she's got her coffee in her hand and all of her children have braids. They're all wearing dresses. She's all made up, like, like, come on, like, this is crap. Like people like you know, I know so many moms who are Like, I couldn't even like, find a robe, to put on myself to get my kid to, like, conceal my, my pajamas to drive my kid to school, you know, you know, like throwing kids into into the school, like throw an apple and a handful of Cheerios at your kid and then dump them in the car. And so it's like, we need, we need that reality check. And we need to stop comparing ourselves because it's just so toxic. And it's so unfortunate because it really I think weighs heavily on people. Even though our rational brains most of us are like, okay, come on, this is dumb. Why am I trying to compare myself to that person? My situation is different. There's this different, but it's like human nature. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing you're not when you're, you know, you're scrolling through your Instagram or your Facebook feed, you're not in, you know, switched on rational mode, you're in relaxed looking at stuff mode. So you do you use, that's your first reaction is to go to that, oh, how come? I can't do that? Or how come she can do that? Or, you know, and then yeah, you might think about it later and go, Oh, this is the list of reasons why perhaps, you know, but yeah, we will we go to it? You mentioned that you're interested in mental health issues. Do you find that that a lot of issues with around people's mental mental health comes from this kind of bombardment of social media and the comparisons and that kind of stuff? I do? I absolutely do. And, you know, again, I'm the mom of two children. And I think back to that time, which was not long ago, it was in my children's lives, when they didn't have this influence, they didn't have this gateway, into a world of other kids their age doing doing all these things. And you know, they didn't have the ability to see the, the birthday party or the bar mitzvah, or the event that they weren't invited to, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can now and, you know, they couldn't get harassed. In this way. It was like, back in the day, when you went to school and you got bullied on the playground, which was bad enough. Now, it's like, there's nowhere in the world you can't get bullied, because you've got, you know, this vehicle that allows that to happen, right in your hand all the time. So I think, again, it's like, you know, I keep using social media, and technology as kind of the catch all for why so many things have escalated. But it's in all fairness, like it is it exists and, and impacting kids mental health is definitely one our mental health to forget about just kids, but it's just as bad, you know, for us to see the, you know, the the girls trip that a whole bunch of the moms, you know, went on, and you didn't go or the big garden party that someone had or, you know, day on the boat that you weren't invited to, it's, you know, it's impossible to ignore it. I think that it depends on who you are. And it depends on how seriously you take that, being bombarded with that all the time. But, I mean, look at the suicide rates in young children right now in adolescent and teenage children. And it's startling, and it's going up. And, you know, every other day, you turn on the news, and you hear about a child who was cyber bullied, and they jumped off a bridge and you hear about a child, you know, who was shamed, you know, who was shamed because of their size? Or, you know, something, you know, that it's, there's bigotry, there's, like, every negative thing in the world can flow through your phone just as easily as every positive thing, and our kids are right there on the other side of it. So I think it's, it's absolutely had a really negative impact. And it's, it's sad. It's sad, and I don't know, you know, aside from putting things like parental controls in place, and really just understanding what your kids are looking at when you're younger kids are a part of that even even as they navigate it and start to be part of it and grow into it. Like we've got to, we've got to really be super focused on what they're focused on. It's too easy to let a lot of the negativity slide Under our radar, and still reach them. And I think it's hard for some parents too, because because we didn't grow up in this world of what's happening to be actually actually aware of what is happening, because I mean, a lot of teenagers aren't, you know, super forthcoming with what's going on in their lives or what they're consuming on their phones. So yeah, to sort of, I don't know, yeah, I don't want to say educate yourselves, because that sounds really patronizing. But, you know, being aware talking to other parents and sort of finding out what sort of stuff your child could be into, or being exposed to, so you actually can help them out and put some boundaries in place, perhaps to sort of limit what they're what they're exposed to. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say to say that I don't think it's patronizing to say that at all, I think it's necessary to say that and even more necessary to act on that, because we're that line of defense, it is our job when they aren't rational enough as young people and they're developing and, you know, those connections are all being made in their brains. It's up to us to create those boundaries. And to keep talking the same talk. And I don't want to say it's rhetoric, because it's not rhetoric, it's important. But it's one of those things as parents, especially young kids, that we have to just keep saying over and over again until you want to throw up and until your kids want to throw up because they're so sick of hearing it, but we keep saying it anyway. Yeah. I want to turn to still looking at social media as a little bit. But the something I really love to talk about guests as talk about with guests on my show is mum guilt and or mommy guilt or mom guilt, whatever you want to call it. What are your thoughts about that whole topic? Oh, wow, I have a lot of thoughts about mom guilt, I also at times have had plenty of mom guilt. It, it is a toxic emotion, because it keeps us from doing the things that I think we need to do. And instead causes us to do things that we think we're supposed to do, like keep our young children busy from the second that they open their eyes in the morning, until the second thing go to bed at night. And we are so afraid of and so consumed by guilt, if we don't have, you know, a four course dinner on the table every night, if we don't have the house clean, if we don't have activities planned, if we don't have social events, if we like all all these things in that and this, this ties in all of this mom guilt ties very heavily into the whole comparison issue. Because we're all looking at everything that everybody around us is doing. And I'm not just talking about on social media, I'm talking about just like in general, we're looking at what everybody is doing around us. And we're feeling such intense feelings of guilt because we're not doing what that family is doing. Or we're that mom is doing and you know, and we're feeling guilty about things that we shouldn't feel guilty about. Like if you love your child, and you're dedicated to supporting your child and inspiring and encouraging your child and, you know, and you're not gonna let your child go hungry, like it's okay, if they have a bowl of cereal for dinner. It's okay, if the laundry is not done. It's okay. If you didn't get dressed today. It's okay. Like, that's the stuff we have to start emphasizing more than the whole idea of checking off every single box or else our day sucks, and we accomplished nothing. And we're guilt ridden because we didn't accomplish all the things that we feel like we're supposed to do. So it's a huge issue. And, and again, you know, it also is another issue similarly in the way that more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster, and I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest In the same way, I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into it, because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection, if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what yeah, it just serves no purpose to anybody does. It's such a, it's a horrible thing. I hate it. I just think it's a load of crap. It is even just makes me so cross. It's. Yeah. And I just want to hug all the moms all at once every moment, like, let go. Yes. Yep. Yeah, I had, I had some ladies on, I had like, four, four mums on at one time for a Mother's Day special few weeks ago. And they one of the ladies had written a letter to mum guilt. And it was like, Mum, guilt, you're a bitch, I need to read that it was really good. Really. And that's the thing, like, as well as like, not, like admitting that we're not going great admitting that, you know, I don't want to say a failure, I'm putting that in air quotes. But you know, that it actually is normal to not be doing everything, as well as you had hoped, like, these expectations that we feel like, we've got to do it this way. You know, for whatever reason, because we've been judged, or because someone told us, we should do that this way. Or, for whatever reason, you know, and to say, I actually, I don't buy into that stuff, you know, it's a really, it's a really powerful thing to say, and then to share with other mums. And they might go, oh, actually, I was feeling a bit like that. But I didn't know whether I should feel like that, you know, doubting yourself. And creating this whole movement of this, you know, giving the middle finger to monkeys. I know, I love that. And I appreciate and support that so much. Because I think that so much of what motivates us to, to, to, to reach a place of guilt, or to compare ourselves to other people in the first place comes from, directly from our ego, as we're doing this thing that so many millions of people before us have done and so many people alongside us are doing. And there's this internal voice that says like, Oh, of course, like, I can totally do it, like they do it, like I should be able to do that. Right? I should be able to have six kids, and also run a business and also have a like, a Better Homes and Gardens house and look amazing. And besides to and, you know, it goes on and on and on. But, and I think that when we can't, or don't do the things that, you know, we feel are the things that should be done. You know, that's, that's when it chips away at us. And, and it kind of breaks us it breaks our spirit, because then it's like, well, how come they can do it? I can't show that I'm failing at it. Yeah, that's the reason that we've we've got a hold up that, again, that perfection that everything's fine this facade of, you know, I see. Yeah. I really think people are getting more comfortable with that feeling of saying that, that they you know, not projecting the perfect world. I think I think we are getting better slowly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I've been begging people to talk about now, for? Well, well over a decade. You know, I moderate a group on Facebook that I that I started now, it's been years, it's been several years ago. And it's on Facebook, it's a public group, and it's called the vomit booth. And it's just a place that marries kind of everything that I do in terms of, you know, writing and speaking and kind of philosophies of parenthood, the humanistic common sense views of parenthood, and I brought it to this place where it could have an interactive component and people could actually come into this group and talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff and bond together and share together and the idea of it being a place where you could kind of like hurl out vomit up whatever it is, that's that's troubling you or holding you back and that people someone's there to hold your hair back while you let it out. And you can listen and vent and, and some incredible conversations over the past several years have come out because it's a place that I really encourage people to like If you're not okay, if you're struggling with XY or z, if you feel inadequate, like, let it out, share it, start that conversation, because I guarantee you that there are 10 million other people feeling the same way. But nobody wants to be like, nobody wants to be the first one to talk in the elevator. Yeah, like, just but once somebody does, everybody starts talking. So that's what we want to do. Yeah, that reminds me that analogy of the first one to talk when I in Australia, we have this thing called Moms groups where after you have your baby, they, they put you with complete strangers, they're just people that happen to have their child at the same time as you. So you put in with these people that you have nothing else in common with, apart from your baby came out at the same time you need. That's all you need. That's the common denominator. And I remember one of the first sessions we went to, and I was, you know, things were not going well. And everyone goes around the circle and says how they're going. And everyone seemed to be going really well. And I was sitting there thinking, why is everyone going so good? What is wrong with me? You know, what's wrong with my baby? Why am I struggling? And then, when it was my turn, I think I said something. I tried to make a joke like, Oh, I'm glad you're all going so great, because I'm not and then just My life sucks. Right now. I shared all the crap things about the no sleep and the sore boobs and we couldn't breastfeed. And when I broke the ice with that, that's when everyone started to be more honest. And it was like, Oh, thank God, like we can be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's just yeah. That's what it takes. And then then, then everybody comes out of the woodwork. And then everyone's like, Oh, but wait, but me, but this, but that we're outdoing each other with worse stories. Exactly. And, and you know, not not to take the focus off of parenting, which is what I know we're spending so much time talking about to circle it back for a second to mental health. That is exactly. And this applies to children. And parents, obviously, it applies to mental health in the sense that once we start vocalizing are not being okay, or our struggle, or our fear, or whatever it is, once we put it out there, there is almost always going to be someone who will then connect with that, and then we'll have some kind of a similar experience or know someone or, or understand on a deeper level, and then it just, it's like self perpetuating, then all of a sudden, that dialogue starts and it's that's why it's so important what whatever space you're in, in the world, whether it's the mental health space, or the parenting space, or the marriage space. It's not communication, that can change everything that can elevate you from a place of silently suffering or feeling shame or being stuck to it elevates you to a place where okay, I'm not alone anymore. And other people know what I feel like and other people may have done some things can suggest some things that will, that will be useful to me. And that's why this there's so much incredible power in our shared experiences. But they do no one any good if we don't share them Yeah. Yeah, that mental health is at least interesting one, I think. People are really afraid to share that. It's like, the way I sort of compare like, if you've got a broken leg, you're not going to be scared to go to the doctor to say, Hey, could you fix my leg? But for some reason, we were so worried about being judged by I don't know, it's, it seems like we've we've failed somehow, but we're not actually in control of the, you know, the chemical imbalances in our brains. But we've sort of learned, I guess, from previous generations that that's something you don't talk about. And, you know, I had an experience where I had quite bad postnatal depression with both my children. And I shared I did a podcast years ago with a mental health group in my town. And then that then snowballed into it was like a group of community people that were known in the community members that that would be identified, sort of through whether they like it as me as a singer. There was like, people that own shops like just pick faces that you know, in the community, and we ended up with these great big banners. They put us on these banners and put us all around town with the little like cute barcode scan, listen and listen to the podcast. And my dad said to me, are you sure you want everyone to know what happened to you? I said, Yes, that I do. This is exactly why I'm doing it. Because I want people to know that it is normal is nothing to be ashamed of. It's like normalizing this discussion around mental wellness or mental unwellness. And I don't know, it's like, yeah, that generation, it's like, Oh, don't don't talk about that sort of stuff, you know? Well, we had no, you're right. 1,000%. Right. And I love the fact that you did that, because that is what we should all be doing. And I know, it's a lot harder for some than others. There are a lot of people out there who are, you know, very introverted, and very uncomfortable sharing. But the fact of the matter is that there has always been such a deep dark stigma associated with mental illness. I mean, I think back to, you know, another generation before me to my parents generation, though, I lost my father to suicide when I was 10 years old, thank you. And I didn't find out about his suicide until I was in my mid 40s. So 35 years later, I found out about it. Not at all, because my mother felt like it was shameful, had nothing to do with it whatsoever, my mother was just strictly trying to protect me, I had already lost my person to have told me at that time, when I was 10 years old, that it was his decision would have shattered me beyond repair. So in that sense, I'm so grateful that she did that. But it had nothing to do with a stigma. But still, at that time, and for so many decades later, until just really in recent history, it isn't, wasn't something you talked about, it was something that automatically, by default, gave you kind of a black mark, and made you feel less than or made you appear less than even if it didn't, it did in your own head because of the narrative that was associated with it. And, you know, it's like the same reason why parents were so reluctant to say that their children had learning disabilities, or that their children had mental health issues. And same thing, they didn't, they didn't want that stigma to be attached, but it's only in doing what you did, or what I began to do, which is to talk in every space I possibly can about my father's story, to help encourage other people to share their story, or their trauma or their grief or their, their illness, because that's how we change. That's how we normalize it. And that's how we change that narrative. You know, I think of it in in so many different ways, when I think of what happened to my father, and how it's impacted me in my life. You know, there's the loss that I felt as a 10 year old, then there's the loss that I felt, so I have grieved his death now twice in my life, you know, once his child and once as a grown, married mother of two children. And, you know, I think about the power that's within that story, both as a child and a survivor of suicide loss, and someone who has had to kind of travel that arc of forgiveness. And I also think about it in terms of like, when I really found out the truth, my girls were teenagers, I had one, just entering high school, I had one who was graduating from high school, and, you know, my oldest, has, has had mental health issues and has had anxiety and some depression and is very open about it. And, you know, getting help for it has changed your life, it's changed, you know, because as you said a little while ago, these are things it's like, if you were born, if you were born with six fingers on your hand, you would be someone who was born with six fingers on your hand, and that was beyond your control. And in that same exact way, like someone's born with a heart condition or someone God forbid, has cancer. It's, it is no different. The mental health challenges, issues, diagnoses, whatever you want to call them, that we have as human beings like that is that is beyond our control. And we need to be treated in the same way that you would treat someone with heart disease or cancer or whatnot or a broken leg. Yep. So yeah, my my, my goal at that time once I kind of arrived at a place of really, truly understanding why my father, I don't know the reason why I will never know the reason why. And that haunted me for a long time. It doesn't anymore. I just know that my father had so much mental illness that was undetected by anybody in our family, but he it was not being here anymore, whether it was for our benefit or his was the only solution. And so I've come to accept that but I've also accepted the fact that my father had so much gin netic like the genetic cocktail in my poor dad's body, from where he grew up and how he grew up, and the mental illness that existed in his family, like that's in my destiny that's in my children. And what really inspired me, I think, to start talking in general about it to my children in particular, was, like, you guys may not feel this way or that way now, or have these feelings or emotions or thoughts now, maybe when you're 22, maybe when you're 26, maybe when you're 30, maybe, you know, these, these things don't always surface immediately. And I wanted them to know like, look, this is, here's your DNA. Here's, here's what could be in your DNA. And here's what it might look like in you. Because here's what it looks like in him, I have certain tendencies or issues. I'm an empath. I feel everything as though I'm grabbing on to like an electrified wire, all the good and the bad in my life house, and I feel it like I'm holding a live wire. And I know, that's how it manifested in me, but I wanted to have that conversation with my kids so that they would know and be able to have an open line of communication. Like, I'm okay, I'm feeling weird. I need to talk to someone I knew. So, yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that it's worth. It's yeah, thank you. It's really great. So that, that you're able to share it. Because like you said, there's so many people that can't for whatever reason, and that sort of reason why I feel like I sort of want to help those people in my own way by sharing my story, because maybe they can't, but that, like you said before, you know, they might take something from it, they might go, oh, I can empathize with that I, I experienced that. Or I understand what you mean by that. And that might give them the little nudge to, to reach out and do what they need to do. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Identity is another thing that I really love talking about this, you know, that we're, we're a woman, we're having this amazing life. We're doing all these things, and then we become a mother. And then it seems that our sole purpose is then to, you know, be a mother, that we might lose other components of ourselves that we had three children, or all? Yeah, yeah. So Oh, and yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people through these podcasts. And there's so many varying degrees of experience with that, which is wonderful. Because, you know, we're all different in that it's great to share. Have you got some thoughts about that? Topic? Yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of thoughts, a lot of odds, a lot of experience with it. Yeah, I mean, I was definitely lost for a period of time, for sure. In my life. Probably around the time that I chose to stay home, my husband and I agreed, you know, that, that I would stay home. He was, you know, the primary breadwinner at the time. And, and it made sense, just economically, that I would be the one. And I was in that place that you talked about, like that incredible place of, Oh, I know exactly what my purpose is. My purpose is those two little humans and, and teaching them and growing them and nurturing them and loving them and doing everything for them. And you get lost in that place. And I'm not saying that that's not a beautiful place, and you have children, and obviously you have children to be devoted to those children and raise them and whatnot. But as I think we've all realized, over the past, I would say probably five years or so 10 years or so, maybe just even five self care is something self care and preserving or creating our own identity simultaneously, is so necessary, it is imperative that we do that. And so many of us just kind of pack up our former identity, and just put it in a little box and put it in the back of the closet. And that's where it stays. And we're so you know, laser focused on our kids. That then all of a sudden, and it happens all of a sudden, you know, it is gradual, but then it's not because all of a sudden you're at that point where you're like, well, they don't need me at all, for almost anything except maybe some cash from time to time. And laundry and food. So, and then all of a sudden you're like What the hell am I What am I supposed to do now? Like, where do I go? What do I do and, and it's really hard. And I was definitely in that space. And what really did help me was kind of this organic, tripping and falling into this life within the school system that I had. And that became a path that felt right to me for so many years. And for so many reasons. You know, and then I had a chance to, you know, write books for a living and do what I'm doing now. And it evolved, but it was only because I basically, like pulled on my big girl pants and said, I, I have to have something that is for me, I have to figure out what that is, and who that is. And you know, and honor what I need for my life. Because I've just spent the last, you know, 20 something years, giving my children what they needed. And the more attention that I started paying on myself. And the more I did for the benefit of my own growth, and the more I prioritized that the healthier I was everywhere else in my life, like bottom line, and it was work. It was working, and it continues to be work. But it's such powerful, unnecessary work. Hmm. You know, so lately, That's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's something that I, I could not exist without things for myself, honestly, I just go, like, go more mental than I am now. No, I get it, I get it have to have, it's just, ah, I don't know. I, it's so it is so necessary. And you know, it's interesting, like, like, I was saying before, like, I couldn't, I couldn't be a stay at home mom, like I just, I have so much respect for for moms that do that, because I just couldn't do it. You know, and we're all different in what we need. And, and that kind of stuff. I just Yeah, I don't know. But first of all, there's nothing I love better than a good Blab. That's, you know, that's where all the best ideas and you know, and experiences come from our blabbing. But like, I just have such respect for for all the different varieties of parenting that there are out there, like you've got the stay at home mom, or you've got the mom that those the hybrid, or you've got the mom that goes into the office every day or, you know, and every thing in between. And, you know, there's, there's just so much credit, I think to be given, for people who understand, like, this is where I'm really good. This is where I'm really great. And this is where I need to make sure that a lot of my attention is focused, and but it's also over here too. So it's like, you know, it's just it, we're constantly building on ourselves. And, and, and I love that there's so much inspiration for doing it in so many different ways. And there isn't one way that's, that's better or more accomplished than any other way. They're just great examples. And that just inspires me when I see that. Yeah. And it kind of this, this, someone's going off on a tangent never it kind of makes me it makes me sad for a lot of sets the word, but it Yeah, it does. It makes me sad for for previous generations of women whose role it was exclusively to be a mother, you know, like, there wasn't a choice. It was like, when you got pregnant, you left work, because you had to give the jobs to the single women, right? When they got married, they had to quit their jobs. You know, just all the things that women would have wanted to do. You know, and if they did do it, they were judged so harshly for, you know, doing the wrong thing. And putting that in air quotes again. You know, just the opportunities that we have now, because of the work that previous generations have done to get us to this point is tremendous. Because I just think if I hadn't lived in that era of my grandmother, yeah, I would. I would know, you and I would have gone on an island somewhere. Like another community where we could do anything we wanted because i It's funny, I often think about that my daughter, my oldest and I seem to fall into this conversation all the time about different periods of time, where we felt she she would have preferred living during like, caveman era for something she's got lots of wrist very funny, lots of reasons why, but with that I don't need to go into but that was like her period of time. And I, you know, I would have loved to have lived I think during the 60s. I mean, I was a child of the 60s but I was an infant. I would have liked to have had that experience because it was such an explosive period of time in the world. But I also think that you I don't think I could have survived it just like you like, I know, like, I would have known if I was the person I am today that back then I would have been like, Oh, hell no, like, I'm gonna work. No, like equal salary equal opportunity. I'm gonna work from home, my husband's gonna raise the kid, you know, and I think I made it would have made a lot of enemies back then because I just wouldn't have tolerated it. But yeah, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those, you know, those pioneers who came before us for sure. Absolutely. stuff without them. Oh, yeah. See, even like, when I watch, I really love period dramas. I can't even think like the Jain is and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you just think those those skills there are in? What's that one that's on the British and, you know, you get a taste for it. There's one of the daughters, who just, you know, wants to do our own thing doesn't want to get married, you know, you just think how much of that would have gone on. But no one would have had a choice. It's just you had to do this, you had to marry this bloke for money, because it kept your family going, you know, all the sacrifices that women would have made to think Christ at night. Just, it's, it's really disturbing. Like, read it. i Yeah, it's disturbing. And I also feel like such deep sadness that so many generations of women had to live such a pressed lives, and we're so limited and these brilliant, capable humans, were forced to do like, one of three things. Either you were going to be a teacher, or you were, you know, a mother or a homemaker or that was it. And, um, yeah, we we've, we've definitely come a long way. And, you know, I'm excited to see how much further we can go. But like, I'm just really grateful that I'm kind of living in the period of time that I'm living right now. Yeah. I would not have made it yet. You, so you mentioned your daughter there. Briefly, I wanted to ask, as a mom of two girls, is it important for you to sort of role model the fact that as a mom, you can do anything you want? That? You can? You can? Yeah, the sky's the limit, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's always been incredibly important to me. And I think that the reason why it's, it's so deeply embedded in me is because of my own mother, and because of what my own mother has both gone through and accomplished in in her life. I mean, my mother, you talk about, like what people were supposed to do at certain times, you know, in history, my mother, when she went to school, went to high school was, was just such a strong and capable student she loved, she loved school, she loved the whole learning process. But she came from a family that was a very lower income family, everybody worked, and she wanted to go off to college, they couldn't afford college. So as soon as she graduated with honors from high school, she went to work with my grandmother. And so, you know, then my mother got married and worked a part time job in a nursing home. And my all of all of my experiences with you know, when I think of strong women, it all traces back to what my mother did. My mother was became a widow when she was 40. She had never had a college degree. She had to raise now a family by herself, a child by herself live in a home by herself. And my mother went back to school, six months after my father passed away, went back to college for five years at night, got her degree, worked, got a good job, you know, was the most present and hands on parent and it was because of that, like, I saw that. I saw that, you know, my mother and I used to do homework together in her bedroom at four and 5am in the morning, because that's the only time she could do it. She wanted to do it in a way that it wouldn't disrupt our dynamic. And so I started doing that with her and it just she and she alone was the one that that proved to me that like the sky is the limit. You can do anything that you set your mind to that women are so resilient. Humans are so resilient and I always wanted my daughters to feel that way. So it's, you know, when I started getting opportunities to do the things that I really wanted to do, like, I wanted to be on the radio, I wanted to write books, I, you know, I wanted to put myself out there, it was scary as hell, because, you know, you put content out there on a regular basis, and you know, that not everybody receives what you put out there well, and I was like, nope, gonna, gonna go gonna go ahead and do it. And as a result, you know, my, I've watched my daughters grow into their independence and want to just kind of, like, grab life by the throat and say, here I come. And it's beautiful. And it's, it's necessary, and if it doesn't come from us, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to be wired that way in their life. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah, when they get from us, and, and my husband too, is, is has always been so is, you know, inspiring in that way, and supportive and, you know, has built us up and motivated us and encouraged us to, you know, and supported us to get out there and do all the things. You know, so having those positive influences really makes a huge impact. Yeah, that's it is it? It's like they, if they grow up with that, that that positive messaging from the beginning, it's like, that's, they're gonna take that through their lives and keep passing it on. And, you know, that just keeps rolling on all that. All that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Something I've just started talking to moms about, I'm gonna make it an official topic, because I'm getting really interested in this lately. It's funny how like, like, you're talking before how you get led in certain ways, and you do different things that you might have been planning. Same happens with, like, the topics I talk about, they sort of evolve over time. And one thing that keeps coming up is this, the value, a big thing is through the pandemic, when things got shut down, as particularly in Australia, you know, we had the restriction on movements between our states, but our sports people, mainly sports men, were able to basically do whatever they liked, or the football and the soccer or continued, but the arts and anything sort of creative, like performance, you know, the shows, all that sort of stuff, that all got shut down. And that sort of is sort of sparked a bit of a, a conversation or a thoughts around the value that we place on the arts, and then that sort of snowballed into the value that we place on a mother that is a creator, you know, is it? Is it okay for her to do that? Because that's not a roll. Putting that in air quotes again. Yeah, you know, she's meant to raise children. So how do we view the mother? That is the Creator? Do you have any thoughts on that? I've just spread me sweat on you. Yeah, no, I like I like when people throw questions like that at me that I don't see coming. You know, I think that it goes back to what we talked about a little while ago, that we, we and I say we, in terms of women, mothers have had to fight for our position. And, and it's been a very challenging fight. And, you know, I think by default, we, you know, when you think of parents, you naturally just automatically assume that the mother is going to be that prime caregiver. And that that has to be kind of the ultimate responsibility that, you know, that overshadows any other thing that that woman may be that you know, that she she may be a professional, she may be an artist, she may be a creator, any of those things, like, we've got to shove all that aside for 18 or so years. And we've got to focus on on, you know, the mom being the mom. I think, I think it's trending, but I don't know what you're seeing in Australia now that we're, I don't want to say that we're out of a pandemic, because we are by no means out of it. But I think that you know, I don't want to put it in these terms, but I think it is just, it's just but in these terms by default, you talk about like, oh, well, it was okay for the footballers and the men to keep doing what they were doing. Well, they were making money. It was commercial, they were making money. And I'm not to say that artists like I know that you're a singer and a songwriter, and you know, and those who are kind of deep within the arts aren't making money but they sure as hell aren't making money on the same scale, as you know, professional teams and things like that. So I think that they just got a free pass. Yeah. And we still had to stay kind of, you know, had to be kept in this role of, Oh, you guys have to be there to take care of everything else. While you know, well, well, you know, the money is being made. And, you know, there's, you know, the energy surrounding this, these, these sports and, and what comes from them has to be supported, you guys have to do the rest because by virtue of you know, parenting, I mean, it's you know, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of caregivers are moms are women. Not that there aren't plenty of stay at home dads and caregivers who are dads, but that's our role. And we have to just keep kind of breaking out of that. That, that place of that identity. And, and I think it all goes, it travels right back to the whole, you know, self care and identity conversation that we had a few minutes ago. Where's it we can't tolerate that anymore. That's the thing. We have to say, our art or our craft or our inspiration, or our creativity is just as important. And just as as necessary, and we have to fight for it. And it sucks that we have to do so much active promoting it and fighting for it. But we do and we have to do that collectively. And that's that's how we change that tide. Yeah. You know, your thoughts about it? Yeah, the thing that, yeah, then the monetary thing is a big one, isn't it? Because we obviously live in a capitalist society. So money drives pretty much everything. And that's something that has really been annoying me lately, too. It's like, because because what you're doing doesn't have a similar monetary value to what someone else is doing. It's just automatically not given the credit that the other thing is given. And that's something that annoys me. Oh, and, and I think it annoys me too. And I'm glad that we're talking about it, because it's by virtue of conversations like this, like whoever it is, that's listening to us right now. If they share that feeling, well, then that's, then there's a domino effect there. And then this conversation extends beyond you and I and extends beyond the podcast, and then it gets other people talking and gets other people aware. And then there's, then we have to kind of collectively not tolerate it anymore, recognize it? And then start talking about it so that it can be addressed. And it can change. Absolutely, yeah. And I think an example that I always go to, with this show, whenever we start talking about value, monetary value, and how society generally, judges creativity, or the arts. There was a, I'm gonna get this story wrong every time I feel like I change it every time I tell it. But one of my guests gave me an example of how her and her sister in law both had young children that the grandma was going to be looking after, while the moms were working. The grandma would look after the sister in law's children, because she was going to a proper job in a proper office, putting their near quotes again. But she wouldn't look after the artists children, because she was just fluffing it out. She wasn't actually working. And I'm praying that air quotes get. And that's just, I mean, that's could be potentially a generational thing too. But oh, sure, for sure. Yeah, it's just that kind of view of the arts and mother's creating, it just gives me the sheets and really, you know what it is? I think it's not it's like it's there's a stigma about it, that you're like taking your one in a million shot. Like if you think of, of someone who's a singer, songwriter, you know, you're doing that as a as a child or young person, you'd come home and tell your parents I'm not going to conventional following the conventional path and going to college. I'm going to pursue my degree in acting or my my acting, passion or my music, passion or my songwriting, passion, whatever it is. And I think that because it there's such a minority of people who become successful on a level that people equate with success, like you have to have like an album out to be successful. You have to have a book out to be successful. You know what I mean? There's so much. There's so many different degrees of success within that but I think that that it's it's based on? Well, it's not really legitimate, like, you're just, you know, you're just writing, you know, some some fluffy little songs here or there or you're, you know, you're painting some pretty little pictures here and there that there's no real substance or value or, or monetary piece that you can attach. So that it's like, it's it legitimized. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think that's where a good deal of the issues come from. And, you know, you think of these proper tracks, college leads to job leads to financial security. Well, people are only now just recognizing that that is not the only way. That is not the only path that is not the only measure of success like that, that that dollar sign cannot, cannot be attached to the word success anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, it just reminded me of this conversation, my son, my oldest son's 14, and he's just having to start choose his subjects for next year school. So this, you know, the pathway to whatever job he wants to do, they're starting the subjects now. And I keeps my husband's a financial planner. So humans are completely different brains, the way we think about a thing. And I keep saying to him, just do something that you enjoy doing, you know, find the thing you're passionate about, work out, if there's job around that, you know, if there's not one, make one, you know, what I mean? Like, find something that you love to do. And then my husband's like, I'll make sure you get enough money. So it's like, yeah, covering it from both sides. Yeah, that's, it's hard. Because I mean, look, we can't ignore the fact that bills have to be paid. Our kids at some point, down the line are going to have to be self sufficient. They're going out, they're going to need to live on their own, or they're going to have to buy food and gas and, and, you know, support all the things that, you know, are involved in living independently. But it's like, it's it just bums me out, when we attach like, well, you have to do you have to have a six figure job to do that well to mean that, that you are successful. And it's, it's crap. And it's setting our kids up, to be really disillusioned about doing what they really want. It's, you know, it's setting them up to believe that they shouldn't do what they really want. They should do what they really have to do. Yeah, I mean, we do have to keep it real in the sense that our children do have to learn how to support themselves. But at the same time, too, we can't, we can't make them believe that, you know, there's only one way to do that. And there's only one level at which they should aspire to do that. Yeah, that's it, isn't it. The other thing that I think is changing when we're talking about money, and, and things, there's the whole culture, I don't know. I certainly noticed over here, but it's changing now, but this culture on social media of this hustle, and you've got to always be doing something and, you know, I can't think of any, like, Girlboss and all these sort of hashtags. And it's like, you have to be driving really hard. And it's just, it's exhausting. Like, you just think when do you have time when, like, this self care, you know, actually, resting rest is not a reward for doing rest is, you know, should be something that we do naturally, because our bodies aren't supposed to go full bore all the time. You know, that culture around that, I feel like is, is definitely shifting, which is really good. It definitely is. I mean, you know, there's definitely this population that believes, especially these millennials, who believe like, you've got to have a side hustle. And you've got to also have a side hustle. And you've got to be in constant motion, and you've got to be that much more driven and that much more successful and that much more capable. And, and I think that's just coming from a place like in particular with women, it just comes from everything that you and I have already talked about in terms of like, we're kind of fighting for a position we're fighting still, to be taken seriously to be viewed equally, to be respected to, you know, and so it's, it's almost like we just, you know, we have to just go at it a lot harder to be taken even more seriously. And that's unfortunate that we that we kind of innately feel that way Yeah, it's just, it's unfortunate. And I hope that as as time goes on, and we begin to kind of normalize success, you know, you know, across across the gender spectrum, like it's, it's, you know, be just as successful as a man or a woman anything. That's, you know, it's going to take time for, I think, us to let go of that, that internal drive. Because I think it's burning a lot of people out, it's really hurting people out. You know, and I think it's causing people to be, you know, to put themselves in positions that they might not want to put themselves in, because they, you know, or do things in terms of like, jobs and opportunities, just because they feel like they have to versus they want to. Yeah, so hopefully those two scales will eventually balance. Hmm. Yeah. composure of hustle the way we do? Oh, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, it's funny, like, all this stuff that is ingrained in us as, as kids and growing up like, you always had, like college, like we call it University over here, but it doesn't have the same I don't think has the same sort of end goal. Like for you guys, like every, I'm making an assumption, but on TV shows and movies, it's like, everyone goes to college. Over here, uni is not, we don't all go to uni, it's like, if you get a job out of school, that's almost the best thing you can do. But I remember, like, like, my dad worked really long hours. You know, I think a lot of us grew up with that, that nine to five, or, you know, eight to six sort of culture around you, your parents or your your dad working. And it's like, that's what you're supposed to do, you know, and then all of a sudden, you go, Oh, actually, I don't really like this. And it's like, you start to no question stuff and see what people around you are doing. I remember the first time I realized that, I had a friend who was only working part time. And like this was when I was, you know, just out of school working as like, how can you do that? Are you supposed to be working full time? This is like, No, it was a foreign concept. From what I'd grown up, we'd say, you know, again, these little changes. And, yeah, well, it's like the whole millennial mindset. Now. And I talk about this a lot with my older daughter in particular, because even though there's only three years in between our girls, it was a, it's a big enough gap that my oldest mindset about certain things is quite different than my youngest. And they're both very, very hard workers. You know, my oldest is in graduate school right now to be a teacher. And she's also working full time and my youngest works full time in the school system. But it's funny, like, you look at the millennial, the millennial mind nowadays, and they're all like, I don't want to be an I'm not going to be in an office, I'm not going to take that job that I'm applying for, if it means I actually have to go into an office or if it means I have to travel, they're like, no, no, I'm really focusing on my work life balance right now. Like that whole generation is not having it at all. And I think too, that you know, and this goes back to one of the, like, if you have to attach a silver lining to what's happened pandemic wise, it's allowed us to do so many things from home that we otherwise just that weren't allowed before. And so it's brought the world much closer, it's made everyone and everything much more accessible as the upside. And, you know, I just look at the way that my children are now and all of these millennials are like, yeah, um, so I've been working from home for like, the last 18 months, and I'm really not planning on continuing my company, if my company is not going to allow us to do that, you know, it's just so funny. You know, and now they're all like, converting vans, and living van life and working remotely from like, deserts and, you know, and, and beaches. And, and I absolutely know that if I had been born now, if I was my 25 year old age, I would 1,000% be working remotely, I would have like a Ford van that was converted, and I would be like on the coast of Australia somewhere down the road from you, and I take home from a van and you know, and and they're they're not settling for that so they things so I guess the reason why I'm saying all that about my own kids is because it's just proof that that that tide has changed. thing that they're prioritizing. They're worse. And they're prioritizing that, that work life balance and that self care a lot more in this generation. And they're not tolerating the idea of the whole, like, nine to five and the way that it used to be like, he's so good, it's wonderful. Yeah, that's interesting about during the pandemic, like all this stuff that people would sit on, that's never possible. You can't do this, and you can't do that. And it's like, actually, you can. It's wonderful. You know, and I don't know, we learned a lot. I mean, it was horrible, still is a horrible thing that, you know, a lot of families and people have gone through, which is been really not very nice. But there has been some positives come out for, for the whole of humanity, I think, looking at things differently and challenging. Yeah. And it's that old saying, like, you know, why do we do it this way? Because we've always done it that way, you know, that, that? And I think that's a real sort of, I don't know, almost a masculine mindset. And I want to say that it sounds nasty, but no, reminds me of something my dad would say. Yeah, no, I get it. I understand why you would say that. It's, it's just because historically, that has been the mindset. That's the way things were for generations. You know, think of the hierarchy who it was that instituted those ideas and those values and you're not wrong. Yeah, I don't want to blame all the boys but we're finger pointing at you guys history. Have you got anything you want to share that you're working on at the moment or future projects coming up? Anything you want to give a shout out to and share? Where people can find you online? And that kind of stuff? Yeah, sure. I'd love to. I think I mentioned a little earlier that one of the things that's got a lot of my focus right now is mental health, and suicide prevention and awareness. And that that actually slides right into the project that I'm working on right now, which is another book that really uses my father's story, the story of my my father suicide, as just a vehicle for starting conversations and for helping people just through my own personal experience, helping people kind of travel that that road to forgiveness, if they're a survivor of suicide loss. And so that's, that's something that I'm kind of deep in the weeds with right now, doing a ton of work on and then working to be a crisis counselor with a crisis agency here in, in the United States, that I'm actually very, very excited about because that kind of all goes hand in hand. So I'm working on that. And just continuing to do lots of speaking and writing about parenting, just the way that I'm doing now on all the outlets here in the States and around, you know, around the world that that help families be happy. So that's what I'm working on. And you can find me anywhere. I mean, you can find me, my website is Lisa sugarman.com. And everything I'm working on is kind of in that one spot. Instagram is Lisa underscore Sugarman, the Lisa Sugarman on Facebook, you can join the vomit booth if you search the vomit booth on Facebook we can I will I will let you in you can just curl it all up oh definitely going to check that out. I'm really really interested in that. That sounds really good. I want all of your moms in your in your community in your area in your part of the world I want to know what's you know, what's affecting you and bringing all this it's like a clown car you can I'll millions of moms and dads and stuff you. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on later. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a really great conversation. I I've loved I've loved every minute of it too. And it's so fun for me to just to especially to hear what's going on in places where I you know, I don't I don't frequent I don't I know know what, you know what's happening in your part of the world the way You do. And so it's it's often fun to find out, you know that some things are different and some things are similar. And at the end of the day like we still It proves my point that no matter where you are and what you're doing as a mom, it's like, we're, you know, we're all part of the same community and the same family here, and we're all dealing with the same stuff. So it's fun to be able to come together and share that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for sharing so openly. And honestly, I really appreciate it. And I know my listeners will appreciate it, too. So yeah, thanks so much. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.