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Mother Wild - Mother's Day Special A global group of women who believe in mothers mothering themselves. S2 Ep42 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia and many other countries around the world. I am joined by 4 creative mothers, Angeli Gunn , Tasha Miller , Karryn Miller and Carmela Fleury representing Mother Wild - a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their 2 other co-founders Anna af Jochnick and Karin Hesselvik the girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats (both virtually and in real life). 2 years ago the idea for their first book Mother Wild: A Book Of Mothers’ Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills and words to bring the book to life, together with 9 artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children, the true intention is to re-awaken the wild, adventurous spirit in mothers - and not just through the words on each page. In the first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how - by mothering them. ***This episode contains discussions around post natal anxiety*** Mother Wild website / book / instagram Podcast website / instagram The Lost Daughter movie Mercy on the Mother Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, thank you to Danni Reade for narrating. Music is from Australian new age trio Alemjo , and is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia. I'm joined by four creative mothers, Anjali Gan, Tasha Mila, Karen Mila, and Camilla Fleury representing mother wild, Mother wild are a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their two other co founders, Anna F. Chuck, Nick and Karen hustling. The girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats, both virtually and in real life. Two years ago, the idea for their first book, Mother wild, a book of mother's Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills to bring the book to life, together with nine artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children. The true intention is to reawaken the wild adventurous spirit in mothers, and not just through the words on each page. In this first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how to run retreats for mothers to Mother themselves. Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, and a big thank you to Danny Reed for narrating music used from a limb joy with permission. This episode contains discussions around postnatal anxiety is this the first time you have more than one person? It absolutely is the fifth. And you don't have just one more you have. I have triplets. Yeah. Could I just take a photo of this? Like so let's see. How's everybody going? Oh, so good. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks, ladies. Sorry, I'm trying not to seem daunted. But I'm like, This is gonna be awesome. Some giggles Yeah. Thank you so much. This is really exciting. I've not just got one but I have got four creative months with me today. Welcome along, everybody. Thank you. Yeah, this is so exciting. We're here today we're celebrating creative mothers all around the world today. Lots of special guests. And we're talking about this amazing book that I've got in my hands, Mother wild and the the amazing group of women behind. We are mother wild. So I'm going to start by talking to Camila. Camila, welcome along. Thank you. Tell us a little bit about yourself where you're from a little bit about your involvement with the book and with the project as well. So I am part French part Spanish, but I was raised moving around quite a bit just because of my father's job and after birth. I think motherhood I don't know if I think Tasha calls it a beautiful transition. It broke me but also made me go deep into I became a very inquisitive spiritual seeker and I did a bunch of things. And I believe it was iOS go I was looking at a ceiling and there were broken knees, and they were about 24. And it was like you need to work with mothers and all of you might be broken. But together, you hold a new roof or a new paradigm. And so I just sought out to work with a couple of moms through a thing called the online moment village. And it was six moms at a time. And from this village, I offered a Wildeman Mastermind course, which these beautiful ladies joined. And from there, it was just magic and predestined. And I did nothing but just show up and let magic unfold. So that's how I actually happened. Wow. So it was really quite like an organic sort of thing. It sort of came from weight. Do you have a background in art before you had your children? And I'm sure I've always been an artist, but no, I got lost in engineering for school and and then I think doing a life coaching training that Tasha and I both did, they made us do vision boards. And then that took me on a vision board journey, which I'm still on on a daily basis, which keeps me sane. So I don't think I'm an artist, per se. Although writing is an art right, so I guess I've always been a writer. Ish. A bad one, but I've always been one. Awesome. All right. Karen, let's go to you. Can you share whereabouts you are in the world? what your background is and your involvement with the book as well? Yeah, I'm, I am originally from New Zealand. I currently live in Japan, and I left New Zealand when I was 20. And I haven't really besides having my two girls there. So they had some claims in New Zealand. I haven't really spent much time living back there. But yeah, so my involvement with the book. Yeah, I mean, it's been such a collaborative process together. And Carmela came up with the beautiful idea. And then we all kind of joined together and worked on it, to bring it to life and be clear with Darren, the idea would have stayed an idea. Like there was enormous momentum behind car and in terms of writing and making it I mean, publishing, editing all of that. So that should be it. She won't say that. But we're very, you know, it's funny, cuz I could like see your face and you're like, hang on, like, What did you say? Yeah. Yeah, no, it's been a beautiful process. Like I am, I was before becoming a mum, I was working as a travel writer for many years. And then I kind of switched and I moved into PR, and part of that was also the stability of PR, when I was working in as a travel writer, it was a little bit like any kind of creative pursuit, sometimes it's the income is high, and sometimes the income is low. And so, you know, like, travel writing was always my joy. And I work with hotels now. So it's still joyful, like, it's still in the travel industry. But I think for me, this project, gave me a chance to kind of flex a different side of creativity for me, whereas, you know, like, I'd been focused on, you know, what I need to do for the clients or what I need to do for the magazine. And this was like, Well, what do I want to do? What do I want to bring into this world? And what's the kind of message that I want to share with moms? And, you know, we had a collective vision, we all wanted to share something with mums, and we all wanted to impact mums. But um, yeah, I think that's like, part of what really excited me about this project, because it was, yeah, just that pure creativity versus having to meet someone else's. And in that, also, you know, we didn't have to meet like a publishers demands, you know, we like we followed our own rulebook when it came to this. You had to leave for two years for a very, very long birthing process. That was, yeah, but yeah, having that complete creative freedom to present whatever you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, that's tremendous. All right, Tasha, over to you. Yeah, I grew up in the United States and I live back here now but I met Carmela first and Tokyo and I was living over there with my family. I became a mom there. And I remember like you might see a meet cute in a movie I remember the first time I laid eyes on her she was just all hair and legs in this big pregnant belly and I just thought I don't whatever she's got I want some of that was just so magnetic. And it's still like a pinching me listening to all of these ladies talk and just thinking this is really my wildest dreams, not just the friendship, but the fact that we get to create and collaborate and go on this wild ride together is just, it's so energizing and invigorating. And I you know, for me, I don't know that I would have ever called myself an artist. Esther before having the opportunity to work with these women, they loved to travel, but I look, you know, I loved exploring, I loved making things, but I think, you know, we talk a lot together about uncoiled potential, and that inside all of us, there's just so much wrapped up in there and particularly under, like the weight of motherhood, it's so easy to sort of shrink and putting, put that part of ourselves, you know, back on the shelf in the back burner. But what I found with working with these women and then continuing to connect with other creative women who are mothers, too, is it It not only isn't uncoiled it's just like this fire that burns now and you know, a lot of times I feel like the such a construct or an idea in our minds that you know, we need to hold on to our idea of hold on to things till the right time, you know, to be able to get out there and do that and, or keep waiting or or be afraid that life is passing a spy or somebody else is going to kind of take our whatever, seize the moment, and it can create a lot of tension, and conflict inside and what we found with them. And these are like the most generous, incredible women but also every mother we've met along the road has been the most incredible, generous creative woman is like, when you see someone burning bright, it just lights you up more. And the more it's like a generative quality so I can look at so many things in my life now go yeah, I've always been an artist actually. Like, we're all in coke, Coke co creation with our lives, you know, and and looking for ways to express express that so yeah, it is. So it's it's been really dreamy. Yeah. And I must say you're you're you've got such an infectious way of talking about it. You can't help but get like, swept up with it. It's it's awesome. It was like a stoke, right? Like, I feel like for surfers when they're on the party wave. I'm like who's joining us? This is so good. That's it. Listen, I love that. All right, and finally to Anjali, welcome. Hi, thank you for having us. This is such an honor to be here. Yes, I share a little bit about your background where you're from. Yeah, just a bit of your involvement with the book as well. Yeah, absolutely. And before I do that, I have to say about these magnificent women. Carmela is like our visionary and our connector or community builder. With current the way she was in the writing process. It was like watching magic unfold right before your eyes, she would come up with most beautiful things. And so much of this book has like her heart just stamped on these pages. And she is so beyond organized because she helps make things happen. We wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for her. And Tasha, even though she doesn't, or hadn't seen herself as an artist, she takes the most beautiful pictures. And she puts together the most incredible videos and she captures like heart and soul and spirit. And she found so many of our illustrators, and she just has this magic radar for finding talent in all its forms. And so I just wanted to give them a shout out before I dive into this because I really Yeah, I mean, it's everyone brings so many strengths and talents and gifts, that I actually think this is not just a once in a lifetime gathering, it's like a once in multiple lifetimes that you get just this beautiful confluence of talent coming together. And it's incredible that I look back on this and think, you know, during two of the hardest years of most of our lives, that we had this really incredible project we were working on. And for me, it gave me so much joy. And also it was a story of source of strength and inspiration. So I was born and raised in Canada, and I loved, loved traveling, and I still do. But once I became a mom, it became even more important to travel and see more of the world. So I was traveling in Japan, which is where I met Carmela and like Tasha said she just has this magnetic quality where it's like que you. You say the words and I will be there because we're going to make dreams come true. And the heart of this book really feels Like, we want to make sure that mothers don't get weighed down with the demands of motherhood and whatever it is that lights them up, or brings them joy, we want them to remember that. And, as well as they're reading this book, it's their children who understand the importance of their mothers having their own dreams, and finding their own joy in places outside of motherhood. And that is so important. The book I love on the back, six authors and nine artists from 13 Different countries created this book virtually while caring for 30 children during a global pandemic. That's just like, I don't know how else you could say this is amazing. No, it actually ended up being 32 children because it took so long for the book to come out to were born and the process the same mom, so there's two. So you could give them a shout out and then current who are not here. And they they helped get illustrators and help get our ducks in a row and funding for Kickstarter. And so they they're here in spirit, they can can you each share with us what what sort of your pages were in the book of what your your dreams are in the book, we really came together to to write and bounce off of each other. So now when we go through the words, like it's, it is hard to discern, oh, that was definitely you know, my thing. But I think that that has kind of been the spirit of how we've worked together the entire time. Of there's no ownership over one thing they there is not only a generosity, but a tremendous amount of trust. And we really looked like I always joke, I got my fountain of bad ideas like I like overflowing with them. But I use that term loosely because we love the idea of like nothing is off limits. You never know, you know what you say? Even if it's 50 iterations down the line, how that might have inspired somebody else's art or else's ideas in the world. And so in terms of that, but I will say the dream that I personally feel incredibly connected to is a beautiful illustration done by aura Lewis, who was our first Illustrator to jump on board and say yes. And it's mother's in a field of flowers. And it's all about mothers coming together and community and supporting each other supporting children running around wild and free. And when I look at that, I'm just like, that feels like home. Like that's the direction I'm going, you know, if only if only in my mind. Yeah. So So basically, like you're explaining not It's not each page isn't one person's it's you've all thrown your ideas together, and come up with it collectively. So Alison, if I can add, I think we've had windows of between like, because we're not, we weren't on the same plus we had the Europeans. And so it was over three, basically one of two or three were either waking up or falling asleep when we were all together. So we had maybe a window of 10 minutes when we were all clear headed. And so but just the act of showing up. And this is for mothers who are listening, just the act of I mean, I think we're just being each other's accountability. Coach, we just by showing up, we would just maximize our time together rather than like, oh, I would like to write a book. But I'll start tomorrow. And when it's just yourself, you might just put it off a little more than when you're showing up. And we're like for the next 10 minutes. We're going to brainstorm and so we would brainstorm. And what was funny and I remember Anjali, you know, when you said like watching card from a distance, like magic happened unfolding, like I feel like that happened at some point, because we sat down with, I think we had 120 dreams that we had all come up with together. And what we did is remove the location because it was like Thailand, Bali, this the other, you know, we remove the geographical location because the feeling was kind of the same, you know, dancing in the desert in Africa, you could be doing it in Australia. You know, it's just remove the geographical location and kind of bring in like, Who wants to go in the snow who wants to go in the ocean who wants to go deep sea, you know, and CDC diving who wants to, there were all these characteristics that were the same in all these different places. So we actually just collect you know, combined all of them and I think we came down to 18. And it's funny because we asked a couple of friends along the way and we all had similar daydreams or similar adventurous dreams of things that we'd like to do. So go ahead card on I was just gonna say to like, we wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And you know, we kind of say that as well, like whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And I think you know, like to just give Anjali, a little shout out as well, since she said such beautiful things about us before. Like, I think, with this process, as well, rest was also like a really important one that we wanted to you know, they think we get caught up in doing these things, big things in activity, but especially as a mom, like resting and taking that time of solitude is really important. And that was one of the things that we wanted to get across. And one of the things that throughout this whole process like Angela was really good at reminding us about, yeah. Self Care. Yeah, self care guru, for sure. So Angela has got it nailed down. She is the cream of the crop when it comes to mothers. She's one of Yeah, one in a million. Love you girls. And I love it makes me so happy to see mothers taking exquisite care of themselves. So anywhere along the way, when we can remind each other that it just feels really, really good. Yeah, for sure. I actually saw a quote the other day on Instagram, and it was something about I can't remember verbatim, but it was about we see rest as a reward for something rather than as a part of just general life. Yeah. It's so true, isn't it? It's like, we have to get all this done. And then we can take the break. But no, we have to prioritize rest. And Alison, in creating this and even just creating mother wild, we we set out to define a few things that are really important to us. And one of the things we realize is like with that grind culture and with that hustle culture, it didn't quite feel feminine. And when Carmelo was talking about the new paradigm, you know, that was something that would come up often is how can we do this in a way that maybe feels more feminine or feels more delightful, or we're not necessarily trying to get to those same goals that we've been taught to believe are markers of success. And so Karen said something really beautiful. She's like, Guys, Friendship first. And so that kind of was like set the tone for us to take care of not only these friendships, but to take care of ourselves in the process of birthing this book. And Tasha would always say, Guys, it's the journey, right? So like any hard lessons and challenges and bumps is like, okay, it's part of the journey, and even the rest and the self care that factored into so many of our meetings and moments and even our time away from one another, that it kind of has got woven into the fabric of our lives, because this is how we want to do things and approach life now. Not just Yeah, yeah, we really want to walk the walk. Yeah. Have you noticed that your lives have changed since you've done this in the way that you care for yourself? Everyone's nodding. Yeah. At the very beginning of our, you know, when we first came together, and I feel like I'd love you to explain it in more detail, but Carmela brought this analogy, she said, Okay, we're a flock of birds, you know, and if you look up in the sky, birds flying formation, and there's always one at the front, the one that has the most energy, let's say, but when that bird needs to fall back, it falls back. And without any fuss. Another one comes forward and takes that so so she's like, so when you need to fall back, fall back. And when you want to fly harder and faster and flap harder and faster. Go to the front, there's no hierarchical thing. Again, it avoids boils down really to like a tremendous amount of trust. And it's not that I just that I like, trust that these ladies are going to be brilliant in what they do and all of those things, but I also really trust that they'll respect and understand and encourage me when I'm tired and life is demanding and a kid is sick, or I just need to lay down that that's going to be okay. But we're I think it's the educational system that kind of teaches us like oh, you know, get grades don't show your neighbor like while you're doing the test. And and I think that that that sense of collaboration is lost along the way. But scientists do show and birds don't know and they're not reading the scientific facts, but they know that by flying together, they will reach they'll not only go faster, further, but they'll reach together the destination they set because I don't know how they communicate again, but they reach it. So for survival. We need to Uh, and I do think creativity is needed. It's vital, vital force for any human school, you know, just by flocking together, we're reaching a goal together. And it's more fun. It's more lucrative. It's more everything. Why don't more women do this? We thrive in community. Yeah, absolutely. In my dream, children run wild and free. Mothers thrive together in community. I like talking about mum guilt. That sounds really nice. You want to go there? Let's go there. Yeah, let's do. It was the first to take that one up. And quick question, Alison, do you steer away from profanity? Or can we just oh, gosh, no, go for it. Okay, we can talk. I thought I remembered that. Yeah. I'll figure it out. first. You first Oh, okay. So just recently, on our Instagram, we had a post with like, a whole bunch of middle fingers up saying fuck off mom guilt. So this is definitely a topic that we discuss amongst ourselves. And for me, I don't have mom guilt. As in, I don't invite mom guilt in to stay for tea. That toxic voice is so not welcome. In my mind. It's a fucking waste of space. Bravo, I believe. Thank you. Yeah, put it in a timeout or just don't like it's permanent timeout. Because I believe I'm doing the best I can at any given moment. It's a fallacy to think that we can be at all all the time. So my intention is to be present. And it comes down to this. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being. And it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working? She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? So I just think it's absolute shit. And we have the choice to value ourselves and try not to be everything to everyone all the damn time. document that. Sorry. Yeah, I was clapping I was. Luckily I was muted. So distract from your beautiful, beautiful words. Yeah. I love that. Can you send that to me, please? Because that is amazing. I feel like I need to duck up next. I actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like the thing about presence because I think that you know like, that's when Mama guilt starts to enter when you're thinking about the future or the past. But you know, like that, that one line you talked about with presents really stuck with me there. That's the key. And Carmela, I know you're itching. To hear what you have to say. You think more I think I'm so happy I'll listen that you can't you ask this in every podcast because it is what terrifies women and and mothers from moving forward and it's that I don't know if it was passed on from generations. It definitely once you you do the work on delete Justin, things unlock and you can finally walk your path. I the first piece I wrote on medium and we're happy to I'm sure we all have our own versions of our own battling that that that demon of mom guilt. But um, I wrote a piece my first piece on medium was Dear Mama guilt, your fucking pitch. And it was I just talked about how Prince Siddhartha left at 29 to renounce it. Yeah, he left his family of origin for seven years. He left his wife with a newborn son behind. And he came back from meditating under the treatment and met his seven year old child, no biggie, what else he was substances subsequently named the Buddha, the enlightened one. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curiosity seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids and who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh my gosh, he's right. Am I doing this? And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to bat away. You know, he was just asking me a normal question, but I took it really personally and I had to have that argument back. So this poor man, I think it was at a chicken boat for a boat ticket. And I was like, I've been doing this and that and he's like, Okay, give me your ticket keep going. But then that thought behind if one at once I did that, that job on Julie did a bedding her away. I mean, it was just like, Alright, let's go walk the Camino. Let's go do this. Let's go. It was just one after the other. So I recommend moms to do that work first. And then things will unfold. Hmm, huh. Well said Well said, sir. I'm just conscious that my the way I'm looking here is changing quite a bit because of my you're enlightened. My son likes it. I love it. It's a halo. I'm just gonna close my brain. Literally glowing. blinding you all in a minute. I love your background. Allison. I'm so intrigued me. We're just lose back there. There we go. Yeah, I do a lot of different things for fun. Like my my core, I'm a singer and a songwriter. But I do all sorts of things just to switch off. So there's a lot of painting stuff and that there's all my put my kids paintings up there because I find that incredibly inspiring when I'm writing and, and I've got ever up there as well, because they're pretty amazing. Yeah, I love it. It's like a living vision board. Right? We make a lot of vision board. Yeah. It's like my whole my vision wall. And then I've got you can't see it, because it's out of picture. But real, real artists work that I've framed that I've purchased. So I've got like, that really awesome stuff over here is like the seven. Love it. But it's that whole idea of like to be beautiful. You have to take in beauty. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And we just were taught to think that that's really frivolous. But that's like the thing that gives us vital energy, you know, and in a generative like reciprocal relationship, if we're going to keep creating, whether it's creating art for others, or it's creating snack boxes and creating a plan to get three kids in a minivan before 8am, whatever it is, right? We're constantly meeting some sort of need or demand or whatever. Like, we've got to fill ourself up with beauty. And I think along with rest, it's incredibly valuable. And I always love coming across a woman who's killing herself often that way. It's like striking. In my dream, the drums and my body are one. I dance wildly, under the blazing sun. Yeah, I wanted to share too, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, so maybe somebody can help me. But a quote that we talk about a lot is the Carl Jung one that one of the greatest burdens on a child is the unlived life of the mother or the parents or however it was phrased. And that's for me, and I think a lot of probably the four of us here is kind of a compass to come back to, when, you know, Mama guilt inevitably rears its head, or I'm finding that tension within just like, I, I'm not going to be perfect. I don't you know, I also have take issue with the whole construct of a good mom and a bad mom or whatever, like, you know, I think that that's really loaded as well. But basically, at the end of the day, there's so much like I, I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, they're going to experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who you know, is is yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit in life, that part I can do and my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. Thanks, amazing reactions. We love we love giggling we love having fun. We throw dance parties all the time virtual dance parties 80s Dance parties. I mean, we want to feel that pleasure and that joy in our lives and we want to share it with others. And so along with rest, that's kind of one of our core principles or beliefs, if we're gonna get kind of corporate there, you know that it's like, we like taking deep breaths, dancing together, laying down and, and really supporting each other as much as we can. And like Carmela said, showing up. But what's interesting is that when we offer resting or dancing, or move, you know, mothers and we're generalizing here, but tend to run away a little bit. Whereas we're like, we're going to do a really intense intellectual, like, professors from the University of Jerusalem are coming to talk about the taboos of motherhood, like everyone shows up. So again, I don't know if it's something to do with our educational system that values research and, and you know, have lots of slides and lots of proof over just easy, playful, joyful, fun dancing, without a mental conclusion at the end. So that's an interesting, and arrest Oh, my goodness, mothers are like, not using my time efficiently, there's no chance you're wasting in my dream, I sail across the sea. destination unknown. Adventure beckons me. Color and before we move on to the next topic, is there anything you wanted to add to the mom guilt soup mix that we've got going on? You know, it's something we've we've, we've talked about internally so much, but yeah, I think through this process of working with these amazing woman is how I've really overcome Hmong girl. And I think, you know, they kind of let talks about, like, what we've been brought up to believe and stuff. And I definitely for the longest time, and I've talked about this internally, like, had my self worth tied up with productivity, and whether that's productivity through work, or whether that's how much I'm giving something children. And, you know, I'm on this constant hamster wheel, whether it's with Yeah, with all parts of my life. But yeah, like coming together, and like exploring these topics with these woman, and, you know, through the other things that we run with other amazing woman and stuff I've really come to learn, you know, like, it's not doing anyone justice, when I feel guilty about these things. Least of all my kids, you know, and especially like, I have two young girls, and it's something I don't want to model. Like, I want them to go out there. And, you know, like, do what they want to do and do it unapologetically. So how can I expect them to do that? If I'm not doing that? Yeah, that is so important, isn't it? And I think it's it I think if we're gonna change the world, we've we've got to be able to model it for the next generation so they can continue it on. I think that's so important. Is it Yeah, residue, just stop here. Do you want to say that we have relapses we have? Oh, yes. All into mom guilt. On a daily basis, were like, Oh, my goodness, I missed this moment. Because I was doing that and, and just letting letting go of them. I do think just that introspection of like, Oh, I think I did. I overdid it, I gave to too many people at once. So we really encourage mothers to take solid, you know, solo retreats and just a little pockets of recharging, re re re evaluating the you know, adding creativity and what an arrest and play and things that recharges Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's not not dwelling on it as well. Like I think I've got better you know, when you have the relapse that you don't beat yourself up about it, you know, like, Yeah, I think yeah, we're all work in progress. Yeah, absolutely. I had a I had a therapist I started seeing this year and I, you know, finally blocked at the time and she would do telehealth, I have three really young kids and so I'm like, okay, you know, I cut this one hour right and but that hour leading up to it be so stressful because you kind of do all the things and get them so set up and you know, when I'd arrived there and be exhausted and then our be up and I'd be like Okay, I gotta jump back into it. And she said to me, she's like, whether you can schedule five extra minutes or 30 extra minutes or an hour and what it all what do you do, all you do is lay there or you score your even whatever it is. He's got to give yourself that room that pause to integrate. And it was so simple, but I literally hadn't considered that you know, it's just how much can I squeezing. And now when I look at my schedule, and I'm probably the biggest offender with relapsing in a lot of ways, but I look at how can I give that little bit of space? Or if there's a lot that I can give, that's even better, because we have to be able to integrate, otherwise, we just holding on to so much all the time. It's no release, until we explode, our body breaks down. Yep, that's so true. That's difficult physical boundaries. I remember a mom was just like, had the kids at the same age and we were meeting and hers. She had like this peaceful salt lamp and like, she was just in her place. And my kids were hanging on asking for food. And I was like, why? Like, they're the same age. Like, it's not like, why do you mind need more than yours. And she's just like, they know that this is my space. And I was like, Oh, I got the salt lamp. And it has my dream, I speed through an open space. I howl as the wind whips my face. All right, so another big topic I love to talk about with my guests is identity. So the way that the concept of your own identity changed when you became a mother? Would anyone like to start us off on that? I'll dive in. I don't know what I'm gonna say. I'll just dive in. I don't know, I want to come back to like what Camilla said in the beginning of quoting Tasha about this beautiful transformation. I think, you know, like, for me, becoming a mum, like, during the whole pregnancy process, I was so consumed with what was happening inside me that I hadn't really thought ahead to what would happen when the baby came out. And I think, you know, like, I, I really had in my head that, like, when I had this child, like, that was not that it was it for me, but I would give it everything, you know, like, I just really had that in my mind that I had to give up. It was definitely that kind of mentality. And then I think like, within a week, I'm like, Oh, I don't want to give myself up. You know, like, I'm like, I'm exhausted and everything, but I'm like, I'm like, okay, that's not the version of motherhood, that like I want to have, and then connecting with these amazing woman, you know, and like, just finding people with similar. Yeah, you know, we just, we think similarly about motherhood, you know, that it's not this martyrdom, it's, you know, they that you still want to be your own person, you know, you're not, you're expanding as a person. You're not giving up, you know, and I think it was the hugest transformation, and I don't think I would be, I think it was a good transformation for for one, you know, like, what we're doing is all about mothers and I wouldn't we wouldn't be doing any of this if we weren't mothers ourselves. Because we've gone through the whole process. But yeah, it's, uh, oh, come on. I will add, and I don't know if anyone who had more than one felt the same way. I felt like from zero to one was a massive like, whoa, tidal wave. How will my I mean, I think suffering postpartum anxiety for sure. And then the second one, didn't feel it that much. It was like, oh, no, I can I can be a human too. And I remember when I had my first one, a friend that I used to work with. She was like, What are you doing? And I was like, I'm drowning in motherhood, in the early days of motherhood. And she's like, I knew it. Like you're one of those brilliant people who like has given up everything for motherhood and like, we need you. We need you to leave. You know, she had just read Sheryl Sandberg like lean in I was like, I Ali Wong, and I was like, I don't need to lean in, I need to lay the fuck down. I'm tired. And I remember being like, I felt like I was letting her down. But I was like, there's no other thing that could be doing right now than what I'm doing and wallowing in it. Whereas for when my daughter was born, it was a very different energy. It was definitely more and I think that's probably what women have when they have multiple choices like the first one you're like, oh, and then it gets a little bit easier, but maybe not. I think I've had mom I've heard of moms who have the third child was like they it took it took them down. Tasha or Anjali, would you like to add anything to that? What can I say? I always like to tell this story. So when my daughter was about my first child was six weeks old and I motherhood and postpartum just hit me like a tidal wave. I mean, the only way I can describe the level of anxiety is I constantly felt like I was in the middle of this ocean with storm When the waves all around me just treading water and just trying to hold up my baby and keep her from drowning, it was It surprised me, because I always assumed that everything would feel so natural. And that I would, yeah, that was really kind of where my unfolding would have been there with this title of motherhood. And, you know, it was more complex than that. And I think that was my real first sort of understanding of how we can all contain multitudes that it can be the most wonderful, beautiful thing and also, it can be so incredibly painful at the same time, and is that once I could kind of allow for that, I feel like that I might, I've been able to expand so much more and allow for so many more things to be true at the same time, but it's lucky with my husband just so anxious, so exhausted all the things like you're saying Carmela with that particular that transition to being a mom. And I'm like, Oh, I just feel like I'm failing. I feel like, you know, everything I'm doing is not the right thing. I'm so worried about this. And he just looks at me and he goes, it doesn't matter. And I'm like, What the fuck do you mean? Like, this is literally the only thing that matters, like everything and I do in life is all not you like gonna be measured. It's like how well I I'm performed motherhood, basically. And he went on to say he's like, it doesn't matter. Because you're the mother, she has let go of this idea of being a good mother or a bad mother. Those are just constructs, no matter what, your her mother. So that's all you can do is just be that. And I was still quite pissed off at the moment, like feeling really misunderstood. But those were some of the like, wisest words that really took a bit to seep in, but became that place not only in motherhood, did I start to let go of this idea that I needed to perform something so well, that I could really just be me and get really curious about who I was never given any given moment. And just kind of yeah, a lot allow myself to come out a little bit more in ways that before becoming a mom, I don't think I even really had the awareness of how much I think I was holding back and meeting others validation. Hmm, it's very good. Tasha, I love it. I love when you talk about containing multitudes. Because I think it's something that we often think it's either A or B, right? And it's like, no, it's a and b, c, and d, so many. For me, my creative energy comes from dance. So I've always been a dancer, there's a running joke in my family that I can dance before I could walk. And I've always loved choreographing dances in my head, and I like to perform them because I don't have to worry about controlling other people in their tempo and anything. And for me, motherhood kind of felt like stepping into a dance in partnership with my child. And I was very lucky in the early phases of motherhood to have my husband who's had children before. And so he came with this very calm, reassuring energy. And I just remember feeling like I had no expectations about how anything was going to be or how anything was going to go or what it could look like, it could look like what it should look like. And it was the most freeing thing because it allowed me to really just step into that role with like, my whole heart, and really enjoy it. And then in the last couple of years, there's been a shift if this kind of sense of like, oh, there's this independence. And there's this growth for both of us. And now it's starting to feel like I can dance on my own again, a little bit more. And so that's been really nice is finding that rhythm in our lives, where it's like, I was there when I felt like I needed to be the most. And now I can look beyond that, and get excited about what the future holds. But being a mother now is so massively a part of my identity because of the work we do together. Yet. We never ever talk about parenting, our kids come up, but it's really about us and introspection and kind of what that looks like in this chapter of our lives. So there's been an evolution and for me, it didn't come with a sense of struggling against that. It came with kind of just saying, Okay, it's like it's a dance. And I think when you try to give it a little bit more ease a little bit more grace, and you don't try to control things as much. In my experience, that's kind of been that sweet spot and feeling like, oh, okay, there's a time for everything. There is not this sense of needing to know all the answers, which has been really, really nice, especially in the last little while, we've all dealt with a lot of uncertainty. So kind of not having to know everything right now. But knowing that we are there to get there, like we show up together, Tasha has this really beautiful phrase where she talks about companion plants? Tasha, could you elaborate on that, because I feel like that's what I'm trying to say. But you say much more eloquently. I have to give credit where credit is due, I was, like, just introduced, I've never gardened until I moved to an island where there's just people garden like crazy here. So I've been learning a lot. And there's a mother here in particular, I'm going to shout her out. Her name is Rachel Phillips. And if you live on Whidbey Island, you know her, she's just sunshine mother of three young boys. And she talked about the idea of companion plants, how there are certain plants that grow better next to each other. And so that's something that we together really talk about, and think about and really find to be true. And think of each other as our companion plants that when we're together, we just we get more of the nutrients we need. We exchange ideas, we exchange energy, and we just watch each other bloom, it's and it's incredible. I love that, I completely relate to that, because I my parents used to have a plant nursery, so I know all about companion planting and how, you know, you might put something next to something else, because that plant attracts the bugs away from this other one or, you know, that kind of stuff. And it's interesting hearing all your different views and the way you speak about things. And the same, this is the same for all mothers is it some people will find things really easy. And some other people, I guess, because of their the way they've been brought up or the way they've been parented find things really challenging. So being able to, you know, when Angela, you were talking about, you know, allowing things to happen and not control things I can see that would be very hard for someone like me, who likes to know what's happening next, and what's coming up next. So it's like you can bounce off each other and support each other. Yeah, that that analogy of the companion funding is really awesome. Love it. And it takes some of like, the pressure off to write, like, it all goes down boils down to like, I just kind of have to show up and do my thing. Like, you know, a plant isn't like, think about like, how am I going to do like, it just it just happens and and we we think about nature quite a bit when we're sort of, you know, exploring a lot of these ideas and concepts and just like how can we live life in a way that is generative, regenerative, you know, so that we can utilize our energies in the best ways and look to nature, you know, things go fallow, and they need to go fallow takes rest when it needs to blooms when it needs to. And there's just so much wisdom there to be drawn upon. And it's a huge source of inspiration. But it's hard to shift and do that by yourself. Right? It really, really helps to have other people who are not only walking the past, but who who who inspire you and remind you, you know that Tasha has coined a brilliant term per mama culture. Great work credit. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah. Play on the permaculture, that's brilliant. In my drain, I take a journey within. I meditate in a forest and a cheeky monkey swings in. So just like you guys to talk a bit more about, like, you've talked about things that you've done together the different sort of events, I suppose. That's the right word things that the group does. If there's someone out there that's listening, who thinks I need to know more about this? Can you share a bit more about the logistics, I suppose? Like, where do they go? What's the sort of things they're going to expect that kind of stuff? Everyone's looking at you. Oh, okay. All right, then. I'm like, I'm looking at everyone. Um, Okay, then there's many different ways and I think we're, if you want in a couple of hours, we're announcing the mommies, which is the Grammys for moms. So there's tons of free events that we'd like to just for moms who, who, sometimes it feels like too much like let's introspect, let's write, let's find out about ourselves. It's like, verily, just so we do things that feel a little bit easier to access. You. We have next is a monthly mother, the mother monthly, where you just get a taste of community, we're currently revamping current Do you want to say a little bit more about mother to Mother monthly? Because she, it was her I had, I had a feeling it put me on the spot with that. Yeah, I think mother, the mother monthly, we've just done one full year, and we're going to take a month break. And we're relaunching. And in the spirit, you know, one of the things that we wanted to do with mother, the mother monthly is build community. And so in this next iteration we're bringing more mothers on. And it's also the aspect of flying in a flock. So we can share the load a little bit more easier. Because we want to do other things as well. We're gonna have more mums. But with a previous version of mother, the mother monthly, we just kind of, I guess our tagline was like, we wanted to introduce mums who were doing cool shit. So each month we had a theme. And then we would bring on different mums. And they would talk about the topic and we would have like a movement session, then we would have more of the chance to talk it through. And then we would also have an open conversation, which was one of the most popular, I think sessions because it was just our chance to chat about things. And kind of going back to Tasha, how she was talking about nature and incorporating nature, like we followed the seasons in the northern hemisphere, so we kind of like have been wintering and resting and that and now we're kind of coming into spring again. But yeah, and also like our internal seasons was a big thing that we want to follow with mother, the mother monthly. So with the menstrual cycle in that so we're bringing all that kind of into it. I don't know if I really should talk too much about the next version of other than other months, because we're kind of finalizing a few of the details. Well, we there's a lot of virtual offerings, but we are also pivot towards, in we haven't actually met all together in 30 years of working together. So we're pivoting towards doing retreats, which we we did before. And now that COVID is opened up we have one coming up in Sweden, the summer, there'll be whipped be there's there's many things in the pipeline, but we really know how valuable and we get, you know, we give each other permission by showing up in person with each other to work on the things that are important. And reprioritize and get support. So that's that's the plan. Hope we get to listen. Yeah, I think the easiest thing is probably just to go to our website, and to subscribe to the newsletter as well. And our Instagram feed is the most up to date. And yeah, the brilliant Tasha and Anjali run that that social media side of things, and they're they're better at keeping things up to date than maybe we are on our website. And then, of course, as we've mentioned before, too, we also just published our book mother wild a book of mother's dreams, that we've worked in collaboration with nine incredible illustrators from all over the world. And we kind of like, gave him some words gave him carte blanche, like, like interpret this how you want and they came back with stuff beyond our wildest dreams. And we're really proud and excited. And we've come up Carmela who introduced a project initially and she said, You know, there's so many big heavy books which have which have of course incredible value as well. But we wanted to make something that was light and distilled in something that mothers could could read with their children. So we say it's a it's a bedtime book, designed to awaken mom was wild dreamer with ANSYS got that dual purpose there. And we're really excited. And it's been really fun to hearing back from people as it kind of opens the conversation because a lot of times it's hard to remember like, oh, yeah, what is my dream? You know, what? What would I like to do? What you know, if, if there were no limits and work from there, and yeah, it's really beautiful to watch that unfold and other women. Yeah, it's, it almost sounds like we're talking about the guilt before it almost sounds like a, like a selfish pursuit. It's like you're a mum now. You've got to do this stuff. There's no time to stop and think about what you want. What's the bigger picture for you? And it's just I think it's is a really clever idea that you can read this book with your child. They go to bed and then it's your time and you've already switched on. You know, this thinking, oh, yeah, that's right. I really wanted to do this or I really wanted to do that. So it's, it's like, right Oh, off you go. Like now it's your turn sort of thing. So it's really, really clever. I really love like, I'm so grateful that I've got my copy, like, thank you so much. Thank you, I just, it's on one hand, I don't and I don't want this to sound rude anyway, but it's, it's such a simple idea, right? It's a book the theory to children, but the outcome of it and what's contained in it is so immense and so limitless. It's just like Bravo ladies, it is amazing. That means that that means everything because you know, it's it's fun to do these projects, and it's fun to connect. But really at the heart of it what we want is just that little bit of space to open up inside a mother right like this is the most exciting trip will ever take is is internally getting to know ourselves, right? All of that other stuff is really just to facilitate that deep dive is Allison, can we ask you put you on the spot a bit? Like what's your dream? A dream? Maybe? Yeah, I would have to say the one the one where the the mums on stage. That is That is me when I saw that. I was like, Oh, that takes me back to when I was a kid and I used to pretend to be Madonna. And I Yes. We have Madonna fans in the group. There's a lot of enthusiasm here. Yeah. So this is my like I was born in 78. So I might be you know, a little bit older than you ladies. I'm not sure. But I used to have the old hairspray Ken and I used to pretend I was on stage and then I used to pretend I was getting an award so I'd have my my speech for collecting my Grammy or whatever. I don't think I knew about the Grammys then when I was a kid but no, that was my thing. So yeah, that's me on say doing my thing. Oh, I love it. Brilliant. Well, you're an incredible singer. I got to hear a little bit of your stuff before you're amazing. I'm glad we did. That was going to be the cut off dream we were we were on the fence on keeping it or not. So we were really lucky that you resonate. And you are invited to the to the mommies in a couple of hours you you can get your Madonna Grammy award award your mana? Madonna Madonna. Yeah. In my dream, I stand on stage. The band's lifts me up as I sing out my rage. Are you ready? Current said, because, you know, at some point, you go down this like rabbit hole of like, what makes a successful book? And do we want to go into the children's category? And then we do should we pitch it and then you know, then you go down. They're like, oh, we need this many followers. And we need to have this impact. And we need to sell this many copies. And we need to do all this promotion where like, Does this feel right to us? And we're like, no backtrack back. And Karen said a sentence she's like, we can measure our impact by how I can't remember the exact words you use car and maybe you remember better. But it was something like we can we can measure our success by the impact of like that space that mothers open up within and it can be just one mother it can be it doesn't have to be numbers. As long as we've connected with a handful of others along the way, I think that we will feel successful, quote unquote. Yeah, Karen, did you Karen sorry. Did you want to add to that, too? And I just Yeah, I guess just reiterating that. Like, I think that's a big drive. And you know, like, we yeah, we've kind of learned and I think especially through mother, the mother monthly that it feels more organic and it feels authentic. And it feels better for us when we actually have connection. And it's you know, we don't we're not so concerned about the big reach, we want it to just be meaningful. Like that. That's the bigger driver. And yeah, and I think that was really nice. Like we through this whole process. We kept coming back together and just reevaluating, and Angelique kind of briefly mentioned their core principles like you know, and one of the core principles there was the dancing the laying down and that but was keeping shit simple. And so each time we kind of get when into that masculine energy, where we really started to think about, you know, those key markers that we should hit and what we should do and how we need to get, you know, all this done. We were like, Nah, that doesn't feel good. You know, like, and it's a passion. You know, this is a big passion for all of us. And we don't want to do it, if it doesn't feel good, even though sometimes it's hard. You know, like, at the end of the day, like it brings us all joy. And yeah, we've got to do it in a way that's authentic to us. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, there's a difference. When you say it's hard. There's a difference between hard work and you know, having to get something done, then actually going against what you genuinely believe, and makes you feel uncomfortable when you start seeping into that. areas that you might think like you said, it's just doesn't feel right for us. So yeah, you've honored that which is really commendable. There's something that I've, it's really interesting, when I talk to moms, I get things tend to go in cycles. So the last thing for interviews I've had, have all talked about this concept of value, and what how society places value on things. And this monetary idea that especially with creatives, you're not creating things to go out and kill a lot of, you know, some are making their business and their livelihood to sell them. You're creating because it's something that is meaningful for you. And you're sharing, again, that connection with people. And I think what we've sort of got to what we've come to the conclusion and feel free to share your thoughts on this, that this, I guess the patriarchal world values, you know, money, if you can earn money from something, there's a higher value on that than if you can't. Everyone was nodding then so I'm really keen to hear what he's got to say. wants to jump in? Everyone's go cool. No, it's really interesting, because I'm not gonna say anything about this topic. Particularly, I'm gonna let someone else dive in. But you should see us on a call. So we're like, talking over each other. We're also excited. And it's, it's kind of interesting to watch us all be polite, and wait for the other person to go first. But I see Carmela is unmuted. So I will let her lead the way on from from a zoom out perspective, we run this Whatsapp group that's called the glow mama village. And one of the girls shared this talk that's happening, and it's all about these really smart people. Harvard educated and, and not and, and celebrities and non celebrities, but who are talking about how can we leverage compassion, humility, and connectedness in our cultures? Rather, I think we're all shifting away from the what's the word I'm you, corporation, there's a word, someone helped me out, I'm having a complete brand capitalism, capitalism. Thank you, please. But we're still we're still we're still in it. And so it does break my heart a little bit to be completely transparent. When I see moms put a lot of effort and a lot of their time and you know, at the cost of not being with their children or doing a job that would give them a high salary, when it's not financially rewarded. Because then they don't value the work. And then they'll take on jobs that might not be as fulfilling, but that will pay the bills. And so to me, there's this like, fine balance of like, how can it? How can we value what we do and put up because No, but yeah, it was interesting, when we started putting a price tag to what we were doing, people would value what we were doing more to so it's a learning experience. And I would love to do it for free for the rest of my life, if I could, but it doesn't serve anyone doing that. And so there's there's this fine line of how can we make it sustainable? And we have to feed ourselves to from it and value of what we're doing. And yet, yeah, not only not not letting that monetary value be our only sense of value. Does anyone else have something else. I also wanted to add that Tasha discovered and shared this great website, which is called bill the patriarchy.com. And it's really, really an interesting way of looking at all the things that mothers and caregivers do. And what that would be worth if you chose the hourly wage that corresponds with what you believe you should be paid for. And I will say when we started our Kickstarter campaign, we had a millionaire by the way on Julian, if I remember correctly, right. Oh, yeah. In two years, I think I made a million if I didn't have to pay taxes, so before taxes, so I know it's interesting, right? We talk about the invisible load and all the emotional labor that goes into raising our child During and I think because a lot of us do it with love. It doesn't also mean that our time isn't valuable. So that's also one of our, our things that we looked at when we were doing our Kickstarter campaign, it was really exciting to see all the support flood behind us. And for us, it wasn't necessarily, even though the Kickstarter was fundraising, it also showed us the greater interest in the project we were doing, which meant we had traction and what we were pouring our hearts into, was something that people were excited about and interested in. So I think that was probably the better payoff. At the end of the day, wasn't the financial it was the sense of like, yeah, you're on the right path. And, and there's people out there who believe in what you're doing. So we felt pretty grateful and pretty energized after that. Absolutely. Hugely validating you know, you've got that, that collective energy behind you of people mums want this, they need this, you know, I think, for me, like and that just remind me about the Kickstarter campaign, like I still and I know you ladies do to the Kickstarter video, like, it makes me cry, and the amount of people who like watched it, and well, you know, like, teared up over it, it really had, like, it hit a nerve for a lot of people. I feel like I need to go watch it. Now. I really wish I had found you guys back then. Because I would love to have contributed to it, too. It's like, and I'm so glad you found me too. Yeah, but this is like this is yeah, it has how incredible that we found each other, you know, like these, these little zeros see, to be like, Okay, I'm going to take a leap, and I'm going to start a podcast, and I'm going to kind of put myself out there. And I'm sure along the way, you've just listened to, like incredible women that you've met along the way. And you know, you can't always measure exactly the impact, right? But there's this sort of trust, knowing that if I show if you show up with integrity, and and from a place of like i Yes, it's it's incredible to build and to grow and to be validated, you know, in that sense, but really, at the end of the day, like you're having these conversations that have this rippling effect where you don't exactly know where it's going to end up. Yeah, but you also kind of like, you have to release that too, right? I think Elizabeth, is it Elizabeth Gilbert for one of one of the ones that we refer to a lot, just kind of, maybe not even her but like talks about this idea of like, you pour all of this energy into creating into making something great, but then it's kind of like birth to you know, we might have this idea before we have children that like we're gonna mold and educate and make these people but really, they, they are who they are, right, it's our job then to just kind of help support their unfolding. And I feel like with creative projects, which again, can be so many looks so many ways, right? I feel like every, every mother is creative, like it's just, it's there every Yeah. But um, it's kind of like, you have to release the attachment, you know, or I'll see we'll just eat ourselves alive. And again, same in motherhood, if I am so attached to the outcome of how what my child is going to do, I will drive myself crazy. And that doesn't belong to me. And I think there's, it can be really helpful to have people in community who can remind you that because it's quite vulnerable, right? Like we want to be accepted. I want things to have in the intended impact. We want things you know, to be well received, and it's natural to want to feel validated. But But that can't be the only currency there. Right. Is other people's validation? Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I also name and it's really nice to have the support within this group. Because I think if we were each going at a project alone, we'd probably be wandering and having doubts from time to time, like, are we going about this the right way, like you're trying your best to chart your own course. But sometimes if you don't fit in the mold that's been said, it can feel a little bit unstable. And I noticed one of your questions you had about the podcast was about support. And I think that that's been one of the best things is we all feel like we can go farther together. Because we were kind of creating this new paradigm together. We all agree on it and we're not afraid to try it out. And kind of recognize like Really what is our intention? Each step along the way, whether we're hosting a virtual retreat or whether we're launching our book? What what did these goals actually mean to us? What do we want to see come out of this and the community that we've built so far, I would venture to say, to me feels like our greatest achievement. You know, and that's not something you hear all the time. Usually, it's measured in other ways. But I think for us, genuinely, we feel like that's been one of the greatest thing. That's things that's come out of this. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Angelina, it makes me think to, you know, the idea of like, a rising tide lifts all boats. And like, yeah, the most valuable thing will be, you know, not the money that somebody might have spent to, to join our monthly community for the month. But maybe six months down the line, we're seeing all of these mothers like, like not only starting to write this incredible stuff, but share it. And that's only going to impact people in their sphere in their sphere, that there's really like this incredible expression that's coming out in different ways. And also, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Right? Like, we can be proud and excited that we're able to sustain a business that's able to, you know, receive, like, financial compensation for the hours we put in. And also hold that the most valuable thing to us is watching mother's shine, like both are both are true. And we like want it also, I think, for me is made me really value and actively seek out ways that I can support other mothers and that that pursuit as well. Yeah, when we talk about community, I write lots of notes when I've speak to my guests. And I've written intense support, and I've put it in a big circle. And that's that is the vibe that I'm getting from you ladies today. It's is that incredible support for each other, which is just awesome to see. And awesome to be in a little group with today. It's just so uplifting. Happy to be your first group interview, by the way. You've done an amazing job in my dream, I go for a deep dive. The magic of the ocean makes me feel alive but I think that's what we feel like with all the things we do as well like with mother the mother monthly, especially like because we brought we brought on other speakers in the last one year and I'm like, wow, like, they we had to meet the most amazing people we learn so much. You know, we build this community. But yeah, I yeah, I think and we all like it's a ripple. For me, it's a ripple effect. Like I feel like the core principle of really begging the shit out of each other and like absolutely adoring each other, like, just makes me want to go do that everywhere in the world. You know, like, it just kind of ripples all out. And you know, like, especially, and our focus, of course is moms but it's everyone but you know, like I really feel like that when I meet a new mom. I'm like, oh, okay, like, how can I how can I help like what can I do and it's gets me excited. But I did want to give it just a shout out that Carmela really is the the glitter we refer to her as the glitter glue that brings us all together. And just to kind of come back to that again that like none of this would have happened and I can see your grown without you guys, it would just have remained an idea that I wanted to thank you because this is officially the first podcast I'm doing. We were all on it. We had our first friend do your podcast and my battery ran out and I basically took 30 minutes to come back on and I missed the whole thing. So this is officially my first podcast. Thank you for hosting us. delightful conversation. I do have to head and help my kids with breakfast and getting them to the bus but um, thank you for having us and absolute pleasure. And you're invited to the mommy's Awesome. Thank you. We're excited Can I just ask? I watched this amazing movie yesterday. I want to know Is anyone else seen the movie called The lost daughter on Netflix exec came up on our global mama village. Yeah, it's, it's, it's good. It's It's, yeah. It's like this. It's like you're taught it's, I don't know, it's like, all of a sudden, it's like this massive taboo subject has just got a huge audience. And it's amazing. Like, when when the girl, the one that shouldn't give things away the one with the big hat. I can't remember a name now. Yeah, she said to the lake later, is it later, I couldn't remember her name was later or later. But when she said to her, how did you feel when you're away from your children? I actually said, we spoke amazing, because I knew she was just and then when she said whatever she said was fantastic. Whatever I thought I was, it's just groundbreaking, isn't it to have something like that set out in public? It's like, Ah, I was just blown away by it. I just hope that it gets so much publicity and traction, and so many people say it, I just think it's amazing. So amazing. I think it's, you know, yeah, I think it's great, because it's it shone the light on that. And but you know, of course, there are such mixed reviews, if you've kind of gone down that rabbit hole of reading what people say about it. But it's we did taboo as a topic, and other than other monthly and it was the most popular month, like people want to talk about these topics. Yeah. What do you think that says about? Society? It's just, they're not ready for stuff yet that, you know, a portion of us are ready to talk about things and other people are catching up? Or is it a divide in an unknown generations? What do you reckon? I think that we've for so long, stripped mothers of their humanity, right, and the way that they're portrayed, and also what we expect, like love is supposed to have a child is supposed to then compensate for all of these other things. And we we live in, in societies where mothers are grossly under supported and, and every sense and the demands are massive. And yeah, there's the there's no space, in a lot of instances for mothers to really feel the whole breadth of their humanity. So I think that makes people largely uncomfortable, because you have to, like, reconcile that fact that women are mothers or are humans, again, to bring up Elizabeth Gilbert, and she's not a mother herself. Maybe I'll look for this. But she wrote this Instagram or Facebook posts a couple years ago called Mercy on the mothers. And it's absolutely beautiful. And it's a, you know, a paragraph or so. And she's just basically saying, what could happen if just for one moment, we could just give mothers grace, like maybe, you know, maybe they had mental health issues, maybe they were really tired. Maybe they battled addiction, maybe they just needed time for their selves, and on and on and on. But what if just for a moment, we suspend a judgment, and we just kind of allowed for them to be human. And it was so deeply moving. And validating not only as a mother myself, but I think also for me to look at my own relation with my mom and generations and generations and generations and really sort of feel the gravity of what happens when we took this whole, essential, valuable, you know, swath of society and, and actually looked at them as real people. It's incredibly moving. It is it's so profound. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll look for it really quickly, because I think it's Yeah, go for it. And isn't that amazing, though, for not a non mother to say that like, that's like, yeah, she's got an incredible insight, obviously You know, life somewhere. That's, that's what's going on. She was also, you know, and I feel like it was an maybe an a big magic book, I can't remember which one, but she talks about how her parents went off and did their own thing. And that kind of, you know, like, her parents were busy leading their own lives. And she didn't look at that as something as a negative, but I think it's an inspiration for her, you know, pursuing what she wanted to pursue? Yeah, that's pretty powerful, isn't it? Yeah, I can't help but feel so moved by the idea that mother's living out their own lives is a healing of what we've been taught for so long, which is that you should be a martyr. And that the unsaid words are, your needs don't matter as much as your child or spouses or society's opinion of you. And so, to me, when we bring up this topic of mother's dreams, it just feels like there's something really special there that we want to hold space for. Yeah, it feels like a healing for me. Yeah, yeah. I love it through that lens. Anjali, that's really true. Because I oftentimes think of, I guess, maybe this is true of every generations, here we are living, right. We're really like the bridge between past and future. And for so many mothers, of course, fewer and fewer opportunities for them, but really fewer resources, and to be able to openly talk about these things at once we can shed light on it, and we can process it right, then we can allow for it. And of course, you know, so much of the work that we do today around this, maybe we won't feel we feel we feel benefit for sure. But really, it's going to be future generations that that, you know, really can move forward from this place. But yeah, but every time I take time for myself, every time I you know, check in with me every time my mother, the mother, really, really look at that. It's it's a healing not only for me, but for all of us. That CDs, and it's that it's that ripple in the pond. And it is, yeah, it flows out. And that's something that a lot, I would say, every mum that I talked to on my podcast, is a question that I asked them is that it isn't important to you to be. And I put this in air quotes more than a mum, because there's nothing wrong with I mean, that statement to me just sounds wrong anyway. I don't even know why I would like that. But that's the gist of it, like more than the parenting role, the mothering role, and everybody says, yes, it's so important that another way that someone described it to me recently was that they were an artist before they had children, and they were an artist, even before they met their partner. And that all of a sudden, when they actually had a child, why was that going to go away? You know? Why? Why is there an expectation that what you've been for your whole life is all of a sudden going to change in the blink of an eye? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I love that, because that's really acknowledging the fact that it's not that, you know, mothers weren't all of these other things weren't more than mothers for generations. And still today, but that they were having to basically cut themselves off of, like parts of themselves off right to suppress them to, to disengage or disconnect from them. And that it was always there. Yeah, that's, you know, what you said, you said something before, that you're expanding as a person, you're not giving something up. And I feel like, that's what has happened for moms for so long. And still does happen. But I think the way that we're talking about it now, you're sort of giving yourself that validation and permission to go, oh, hang on a sec. That's not actually what I want to do. And there's people there to support me in in the way I want to live my life, I suppose. Yeah. So good. Just as a side note, Angelique, just message to say her Internet has crashed. I wondered where she taught. All right. Well, look, I think I'll let you ladies go. Now. We've had a wonderful chat today. I've thoroughly enjoyed meeting you all and share the space this morning. It's been so much fun. It has this is why we love doing this, like energized after this. Yeah. I feel you feel like you could take on the world now. But can you imagine we always share the quote too. I think it was Jana Romer, who we heard this, like a well rested woman is a dangerous woman, right? Because we love but can you think of like, if every mother had some ounce of this every you know, in her day, not every moment is meant to feel like we're all feeling right now. And that's okay. Like we're here to invite all of the challenging difficult parts of life to there is we need those right? And also, if every woman, every mother could could could feel this, like, what you can't help but think, how the world would shift. You know? Let's with that energy, can I before we go, just to read to you because I think it's a beautiful monastery. Only two, but just that quick mercy on the mothers because I just I go back to this all the time. It says Dear ones, recently I was at a conference where the question was asked how many of you are afraid of turning into your mother, nearly everyone in the room stood up. This made my heart ache. My heart ached, not only for, for the people in the room who were all beautiful, creative, imaginative and wonderful human beings. It made my heart hurt for their mothers who will never be stopped, stopped being judged as failures. Because oh my god, we never stopped blaming the mothers do we? How many years? How many dollars? How much energy have we all spent as a culture talking about how mothers have failed us? What I want to say today is can we take a break just for one day, and show some mercy to the mothers? Because being a mother is impossible, and I don't mean that it's difficult, I mean, it is impossible. What we as a culture expect from our mothers is merely that they cannot be human. Mothers are meant to be some combination of Mother Mary, Mother, Teresa, Superwoman, and Gaia. It is merciless standard of perfection, merciless. God help your mother if she had ever fell short. God help your mother if she was exhausted and overwhelmed. God help her if she didn't understand her kids, God help her if she had no gift for raising children. God help her if she had desires and longings. God help her if she was ever terrified, suicidal, hopeless, bored, confused, furious. God help her if life had disappointed her. God help her if she had an addiction or mental illness. God help her if she ever broke down, God help her it couldn't if she couldn't control her rage. God help her because she fucked up. And if she fucked up in any way, she will forever be branded bad mother. And we will never forgive her for this. So this is my question. Can we take a break today from judging the mothers and show them mercy instead? This doesn't mean that what happened to you at the hands of your mother was okay. This doesn't mean that any pain you have is not real. It just means that maybe her pain was real, too. And if you are yourself a mother, and you never stop judging yourself for how you are failing, can you let it go for one day? Just for one day? Can you drop the knife that you're holding to your own throat? Mercy just for one day? Let us find mercy, mercy on you. Mercy on everyone mercy on the mothers? So have that same feeling to that last question. Like me? I'm like caring for right now. Oh, my God, that is so true. And I really don't and, you know, I know we're gonna call me now. But we talk about this construct of good mother bad mother. And of course, we all want to come to this as our best healthiest self. Right? And that is a practice to do and there's ingredients we need to get there. But at the same time, like this idea of a bad mother of failing our children are you know, I don't think mothers any mothers really failing, I think that they some that are more under resourced than others. I think I love I think Glennon Doyle always says, you know, there's no such thing as other people's children. And I don't just take that as a sense of like, having responsibility for the collective well being of kids everywhere, but also that society also has responsibility and benefit from seeing to the well being of my children as well. Right. Like, I don't think mothers have failed I think society's failed mothers. And there's a bit of an internet like a revolution that little ripple when we say like what I have to say no matter what I feel what I need to express what I need to create, because it makes me feel alive. Like that's not nothing, right? That's everything. That's yeah, I'll send it to you. That's my goal. I go back to that all the time. Kissing like yeah, Oh that's so powerful oh man can we do this to me continue all look Thank you I've had such a wonderful time thank you to all the best with it all and and I'll put the links in the show notes where they can find your amazing website we are mother wild and yet all the best with the book as much as I thank you so much. And by the way, Allison like congratulations and thank you for this incredible space that you've cultivated like it's amazing be able to go through you know, your list of apps, I think it was 35 I feel like I can't remember the exact numbers. And I'm just like the cloud every conversation is so rich and and that it has it means so much so to the thank you and for giving us like the space to be able to share and hopefully connect with. With more moms. It's so valuable. Oh, thank you. No, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Judy Richards Australian mixed media artist S2 Ep66 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) My guest today is Judy Richards, an artist, mother of 3 and grandmother of 8 from Mount Gambier Australia, and the first grandmother I've hosted on the podcast. Judy has been creative her whole life, she always loved to colour in and draw and learned to crochet as a 10 year old. Her mother would always buy always buy a few balls of wool for her when she did her groceries, and Judy would make blankets for everyone, brothers and for her dad's truck. As a 13 year old Judy learned to sew on her mum's old treadle sewing machine, her first major sewing project was a high school skirt, because mum couldn't afford to buy one. She used to make most of her clothes in her late teens and when she had children she would sew most of their clothes. In the late 80s and throughout the 90s Judy taught herself to paint, no social media back those days or YouTube to learn on, so Judy dove into the books. In 1995 Judy opened her own art studio called Omega Rose Crafts and Gifts, she painted, made dolls, quilts, you name it, Judy did it... she'd be up to all hours of the morning. The studio closed after 2.5 years when her husband's business circumstances changed, so Judy started selling at the local markets, and did so every Saturday for 7 years. By 2003 she was feeling so burnt out, Around 2010 Judy got back into drawing and penwork and occasionally painting, selling a bit but doing it more to keep busy and she loves giving them away. She's still very creating today, her favourites being crocheting and painting. As 40 year old Judy did some more study and became a nail technician, still utilising her creativity but on nails. After working from home for 20 years, and feeling the effects of covid on her business, Judy is now looking for her next challenge. Judy lives by the motto, If you don't know how to do something, learn it and try it, and you can't say you can't do something, until you have tried it! This episode contains discussions around suicide, depression, alcoholism, anxiety and domestic violence Judy has experienced many heartbreaks in her family, losing 2 brothers, one to suicide and the other alcoholism. Judy feared depression for a long time and used her creativity to keep her busy and would lean into it if she wasn't feeling mentally strong. Today you'll hear chatter and background noise from Judy's 3 year old grandson Leo. Follow Judy on instagram Connect with the podcast - instagram / website Christian Author Francine Rivers Judy's work in progress painting If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Judy Richards. Judy is an artist, a mother of three and a grandmother of eight from Mount Gambia in Australia. The first grandmother that I've had on the podcast, Judy has been creative her whole life. She always loved to coloring and draw, learn to crochet as a 10 year old and her mother would always buy a few balls of wool for her when she did her groceries. Judy loved making blankets for everyone in the family. As a 13 year old Judy learn to sew on her mom's old treadle sewing machine. Her first major project was a high school skirt. Because mum couldn't afford to buy one. She used to make most of her clothes in her late teens. And when she had her own children, she would say most of their clothes to in the late 80s. And throughout the 90s. Judy taught herself to paint no social media back in those days or YouTube to learn on. So Judy dove into the books. In 1995. She opened her own art studio called omega rose crafts and gifts where she taught art and painted made dolls. Quilts. You name it, Judy did it. She'd be up until all hours of the morning. The studio closed after two and a half years when her husband's business circumstances changed. So Judy started selling at the local markets and did so every Saturday. By 2003. She was feeling so burnt out. Around 2010. Judy got back into drawing and pen work and occasionally painting selling a bit but doing it more to keep busy and she loves giving them away. She's still very creative today, her favorites being crocheting and painting. As a 40 year old, Judy did some more study and became a nail technician. Still utilizing her creativity but on clients nails. After working from home for 20 years, and feeling the effects of COVID on her business. Judy is now looking for her next challenge. This episode contains discussions around suicide, depression, alcoholism, and anxiety and domestic violence. Judy has experienced many heartbreaks in her family, losing two brothers one to suicide and the other to alcoholism. Judy feared depression for a long time and uses her creativity to keep her busy. And she leans into it if she isn't feeling mentally strong. Julie lives by the motto if you don't know how to do it, learn it. Try it. You can't say you can't do something until you've tried it. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a great list of international resources can be accessed by the website, www dot Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you hear on today's podcast is from my trio, LM Joe which is myself, my sister Emma and her husband John. And we play new age and ambient music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. And throughout the podcast today. You'll hear from a little visitor Judy's three year old grandson Leo. Thank you so much for coming on duty. Yeah, it's such a pleasure to meet you again. But to be in your home today, this is the first time I've actually taking my gear out and not being in my studio. So this is very exciting. It's exciting for me to lie to you and that's funny because that's what is going on. Yeah. I've watched a couple of your things. Yes, that's what it is. And that's the truth isn't it? Like nothing ever goes perfectly how you expect it and dance and that's why I think you know, we live in a world and everybody expects everything to be perfect. Your Home has to be perfect. Life has to be perfect. You have to have the perfect job, you have to have everything perfect. That's not life. Life doesn't work like that. I didn't grow up in the most perfect environment growing up as a child. But I had a mother who loved us so much. And even though my dad left, and my mom was me and my four brothers, and it wasn't easy, because she was a very sick lady. But she taught me who I want it to be. Yeah, I wanted to be like her, or wanting to be that woman that would. I'm a very forgiving person. I don't hold grudges, because I just I think life's worth it. And she taught me about being creative. Like, you know, she, well, that's crushering at 19 years old. Yeah. It's my brother's a blanket, manner blanket. And she would do the groceries and she'd bring home a couple balls a wall, that the next one like, you know, and then by the time I was 13, I was dressmaking. So I've been creative, my whole life. Just doesn't stop. I can't sit down. That's terrible. That's part of life, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not. It's not a bad sort of habit to have really, you know, to keep yourself busy and active minds. And I believe, you know, people go, Oh, I can't do that. You haven't tried. That's the biggest thing. My whole life. I like a challenge. In my artwork, I like a challenge. I'll try something totally new. And I thought, What am I doing that, you know, I never let it get to me and, and then, you know, I've got children, so and now they're out, and now I've got grandchildren and but it's just, it's just life, you just got to make the most of it. And I guess then you would have, it would have been important for you to instill that those sort of ideals into your own children growing up. And I'm really proud of who my daughters have become, you know, life's not always easy, you know, and I and I see that in our lives. And I've watched a couple of dollars struggle here in life at times, and I just encourage them to keep going. And, and my youngest daughter, Megan, I always say to her, he remind me of my mom, you're stronger than you think. And you'll nothing will get you there now, but you'll get through it like you know, and I think that's what you've got to look at in life that you can allow things to pull you down. And that's where depression can come in. Or you can allow life just to fight for what you believe in. And I've always believed in my marriage, I've always fought through it and we've had some really tough times but and instill that into my kids it's not perfect think this is the thing these days with all the social media that's on the same now like everyone shows that you know the the perfect photos and the perfect snapshots in life and it's not reality. It's just that tiny moment. That's right, you know, but then if you're feeling a bit insecure or you know you're you're a bit down on yourself or your circumstances that can make a massively negative difference to absolutely and I think the worst part about social media is how you look. It's like if you don't look a certain way, you're not good enough for society. That's not how it is. Now I get a lot of ladies that always look nice. It's not that hard. Like I have a skirt and a jumper on today like we all dressed up. It's just who I am. I like clothing and I like to look nice, but it's not hard to actually nearly 90% of my class come out of Kmart yeah It is not hard. I used to dress Mike all the time when I had my children. We lived on one wage, so there wasn't money to spend on clothing. And so my son che was sitting on my kitchen table all the time. My husband got so sick of it that he built me around the best. We could have the kitchen table for you, especially when I was being creative. And I was doing the markets and didn't have the social media that we have today. So I when I started painting, and then I had friends asked me to teach so they're not started teaching. And then in 97, I owned art studio, and it was called omega rose crafts and gifts. And so two and a half years, I hit that studio. And you know, I dropped the kids off to school, and I'll go to the studio and spend the day there. And either I would get to pick them up, or Pete's dad would pick them up, drop them off at the studio and they would go into their classroom and do their schoolwork or that go to their grandparents, either one and but it was a really good experience. For me it was about learning how to run my own business. The goods and the bads. Yeah, because there's always that. And then my husband's business partner decided he wanted out. So we had to buy our main breadwinner. And so my studio had to close. And then I was like, What am I gonna do with all this stuff was crazy. I had so much. So I went out to Fletcher job markets for five years. And so every Saturday, I'll say every Saturday for five years. And so I kept making stuff, making stuff making stuff. And then it came to the point where I got burnt out. And I think that's why now when I come to create the creative side of things. Sometimes I'll start something and I'll go out and start selling there. But the last couple of years, I've just liked the handout, I'm not doing that anymore. Because you've burned yourself out. And if you're not careful, that desire that you enjoyed, becomes a headache. And I loved crochet, or crochet blankets, and I sell some. But if I don't, I don't care. Yeah. There's no pressure. I just finished one I thought I had a solid it's not so I'm not fast. It's in my color. So I can always keep it in the box. I love giving away stuff as presents. When the grandchildren started coming along, I started crocheting and making fresh toys. Love it. Love it might I might have made hates. And I did a couple of markets. And one market I did a couple of years ago. And people are just like, Oh no, that's to do I'm not paying that is hours and days. And I'm just like, and me. I do stuff to make money. I do stuff because I enjoy it. But if I can sell something, it's fine. But I never put a high price on something. So I just figured that's the price I've put on it. Either pay for it or go with that. Yeah, yeah, I think that that's something I'm noticing a lot on social media at the moment is that people who make pain making things are actually you know, standing up for themselves and saying this isn't mass produced in some far off country by people who don't get paid very much. You know, this is like you said, it takes so long it's you know, you've got all these years of skills behind you that you'd build up. You shouldn't feel like you have to justify what you what you're asking for. It's like Dammit, this is what it costs you know, like you said you're not putting like a tremendous mark on top of it. It's like nine manufacturing materials and just a little bit extra. Yep. Yeah, I'm happy with that. I you know, kids are all grown up and gone. Now. I've got eight grandchildren and eight grandchildren, but only have three here. And I just say I've got little Leo today and he's just he's just my baby. You just loves me. It's just my grandma but you know and the rest of the in Queensland so that's really hard because I don't get to see them that often. But we keep in contact with one another But you know, and having that enjoyment with your family is so important, because before you know I've gone yeah. And I don't have much of my family left, because my mom died a long time ago. And I've lost a couple of brothers. And so I was always I've got my girls now, because I've been 20 years. And Megan spent on four and a half years. And I'm glad parts here, she nearly left but she came back. And she's just finishing I got nowhere. So at least I have someone but you don't realize how important family is. Until you don't have it, you sort of take it for granted a little bit. Don't ever let that just there. And they'll always be there. And then when they're not. Yeah, that's it. Lot My wife has some very nice kids. But he sounds like you've got the right attitude, though to, you know, to keep going, you have to believe. And my faith in God is the biggest part of my life. And I stepped away from it for a really long time. And I watched my life full and a whole year, I watched my marriage and he broke up quite a few times. And only a few years ago, I decided it was like there was something missing. And I decided I know what's missing. That's my faith in God. And, and it's strong, and it's what has kept me going over my life. And as I shared with you, I've watched depression, destroy my family, my brothers. I had a brother, eight years ago commit suicide. And him and I were not quite twins, but near enough. We're only 10 months apart. And so him and I were extremely close. And so that just rocked my world. I thought losing my mum when she was only 48 rocked my world until my brother died. So if you just have to. And people say to me, you don't get it, dude, you've never suffered it. No, I have lived it. Yeah, I have. I've been that other person sitting there living with it with all my brothers. And I've had two to three girlfriends that I have suffered extremely, really bad. I've got a really close friend that's going through lots right now. And I'm just there for her. You know, you can't and sometimes lose people. I lost one friend. It got to the point it was destroying me. Yeah. So you have to be careful. You do have to protect yourself. When it's your family. That's a little bit hard sometimes, but you do it. You have to go. Sorry. Yeah, you know, my brother's get that one that I've got here. It's not well, and the other one needs to wait. So it's just my two baby brothers. I've got left. And they suffer really, really bad. And it's really hard watching it. It's really hard watching it. So for many years, I had a fear of depression. The fear was, am I going to come down with that to watching my dad, and all my brothers pay for all attempted suicide. And it's it's heartbreaking. And so my faith is what has kept me. I truly believe my faith has kept me strong. Because I don't have a bad day. We all have bad days. And what do I do when I have a bad day? I pick up a book or I go into my painting like pick up the chromosomes that project I focus on something totally different. Yeah, get your mindset changed around My motto in life is today my mum was because she was so sick. My mum was a chronic asthmatic. From the day she was born to the day she died. And, and she was a very sick lady, but her motto in life was tonight. She would say, Well, yesterday, it's done. What can you do about it? Yep, don't let it destroy him. So what do we all do? Everybody likes the pest, control them, destroy them. And then we all stress about tomorrow. It hasn't even happened. Like, you know, someone asked me once, but how do you make plans? Okay, I'll make plans. That's That's simple. I don't stress about God, is this gonna happen? Is that gonna happen? I don't, I don't focus on that. I focus on today, I enjoy my day. Even if I don't do anything, and I'm sharing all day doesn't matter. I enjoy my day. And having eight grandchildren. Because being a grandmother is totally different from being on with your friends. Yeah. I loved being a mom. That was that something I absolutely loved. But having grandchildren. It's Sorry. It's what's so special. So special. I was there when the first two were born. And, and not being around five of them is pretty hard sometimes. Yeah. But the three that I have here, I spend as much time as I can. And I've been looking after Leo, every fortnight since he was born. So both could have some her time. And I just love it. I'll set their places like Grandma, Grandma Grandma that's so sweet, really sweet. When the kids were growing up and you're making you're making clothes, what are the things we're doing? At that time when the kids were growing up? I had just started teaching myself to paint. I tried to cut the class and send them thinking, oh, that didn't teach me anything. So I was determined to learn and how do you learn back in the old days, we never had YouTube. books, books, books. I just had a cupboard full of books and so teach myself to paint. Yeah, it was just high time. I don't know if you've ever heard about high tide. Yeah, we used to be at a Baptist church. Yeah, that was the go to. For us mums, yes mums. And it's quite sad. That's not around anymore, because I think there'd be a lot of young mums here that would benefit from it. But it was great because they had all these different craft groups. And so each month, you'd go from one to another to another. So you're learning different techniques. So you would learn something new. And like, you know how the modeling clay earrings are really been thought yeah, yes. Do I come back then? Yeah, I still got a brooch that I made. And, you know, just learning new things. I was always wanting to learn new things. And you know, even in dressmaking, you would learn that you'd say something and I'm like, by looks interesting, or I want to have a go there. And I remember my girlfriend Tracy, she actually gets in Queensland so so we still keep in touch. But she was going as well and then we'd get asked to teach. Yes, like, Whoa, dude, you can do that really? Well. Do you want to teach for us? I suppose. And I never we did these puff paint jump or year? Yeah, I asked my girls about oh my goodness. I didn't try Cisco. So I still talk about those puff paint jumpers. But so far, I mean, but the things we used to do, yeah, but ya know, they were good. times, like, you know, and I just think today I got a lot of social media, I watch a lot of home decor shows. And what, what inspires me now I see a lot of women out there building their own furniture and doing their houses. And I think that's amazing. Because I think you've got to have the mindset. Well, I don't know how to talk, but I'm going to try. Yes. And I think that is a really important mindset. Because as I say to people, you can't say you can't do something like this, you have to. I'm teaching myself watercolor. That's a whole new kettle of fish. I had a friend round the other day, my husband was away for the weekend. And so we did a bit of watercolor. And she said, Oh, look how much you've done. Do and I'm finding it easier, the more I practice is practice it. And it's like anything you do the same. You just can't say you can't do something. Because, you know, because there's a lot of people out there today, I suppose in a kid's generation. Don't know how to sell a button. Don't know how to cook properly. Because that guy can't do it. Yeah. Get out and try. Like, I'm learning to sew, I made my school uniform. Oh, wow. Because my dad didn't want to spend the money that it was gonna cost because even if cabling just strike gambling school skirts, I went to grant was still like $70. And back then that was a lot of money. And so I had this horrible skirt that I have plastic wasted. The boys would pick on me that pull it down. It was terrible. And so my mum brought some gambling, and that's I use it in my class at school. And my school I put a zip in a pencil case when I can make a skirt law, like, you know, for asking my teacher to I have to make a pencil case. And she said yes, it's a part of the class. I said, is it about a zip? She said, Yeah, well, I'm making my skirt for school. Why can't Why didn't zip in that? And she's like, Oh, well, there's no reason why. So I went from there and from there but my dress making just yet so it was good that you your teacher recognized, you know that you have that curiosity and that interest and supportive that you know, I think that's important. Yeah, to do that. Yeah, absolutely. I've taught a lot of things or these, you know, I've helped people to paint draw, or I've tried to question in class that was not easy. Yeah. Because so many different people at different stages. And I remember one class of you I just didn't stop I was just like, you pretty full on. A lot of people say, Oh, God teach us how to make those toys. And oh, can you crochet back to me, where do you think? A few. I so it's really robust, isn't he? Yeah. He's beautiful. So I'm doing just a few plank beers at the moment. Yeah. When my youngest daughter had a baby this year and I did her HIPAA bids and triple B's and stuff like that. And because I crush it baby blankets, I'm gonna do a couple of baby funds. And hopefully I can sell those so because that Not something you can just identify isn't it? Yeah, it's like when I was a baby, like I'm in the, the era of, of all that handmade, everything was made with love and special individual pieces. And then everything's just called mass produced company, that sort of stuff. And I feel like people are craving for that. And individual saving is by this very long. Yeah, I grow up so sleazy. And I think, also, like my mum used to say, back in her day, and we were dressed like baby babies for quite a long time. Yeah, yeah. held here in the zone. Actually gorgeous close out the best unless the other day looking at something kind of like, Oh, my goodness, I need another baby. Or I often get like that with girls clothes, because I've got two boys. And I've got a nice, so if I ever see something curious, Oh, get that for Ruby, you know, like into bike? Shop for boys kids. Yeah, so, but it's just crazy. Time just flies like, kind of 60s Just like I was about to turn 40 next year. And it's like, if you're 40. I'm the late 60s. Where's that time. But I think life is special. When I turned 50 I celebrated my 50th not just for me, but for my mom who never made 50 Because I thought she never got to this momentum of turning 50 which every year is upon. And a lot of people don't like to celebrate their birthdays, but it's an important part of our life. You know, it's just, and that milestone of 50. Like you said your mom's 48 Like, did that when you turned 48? Did you sort of go? Like, yeah, I noticed when Pete turned 48 Because he's a couple of years older than me. But then when I turned 48 online and see my mom because of her next sickness looks probably 1015 years older than what she was. So I'm like, 48 so young. Like it's so young. And why was unable to me it felt like it was only just beginning. Like it Yes. I'm coming up 60 In fact, nowadays we want to put 60 was really Oh, no, no, sorry, people. It's funny because I was the same I used to think 16 was really old. And then when Mum turned 66 It's not like anything. Like literally, like you said, you said you're not even you're not even like you hopefully, you know over halfway when you're 50 But you know, it's like, I don't I it's just did you have grandmothers used to dress older or subtle? Like, what? What might you do? Really all right now. I'm in coloring my hair for probably five, six years now. I just got it every now and then in summer. I put a couple of highlights in it, but that's about it. Because the cost factor is just getting too expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to say but then when I think about it, I look at peace parents and like Pete states money coming up 94 Just to kind of just raise any still leaves home, so it's a good effort. It's mum died. I think she was 86. And yeah, I think she always looked a lot older than what she was. I think it does. I think today we dress how we feel, you know? And when they go by you can't dress like that anymore because you're like the other 60 I'm gonna wear what I want. I'm not I haven't got the skin out everywhere and you know, I'm not trying to be like on 21 But yeah, that's what I want to dress like a no way either. Yeah, yeah. I reckon you know how everyone used to keep like the old ladies used to get that blue REITs and that here that they get like set they'll get their permits. Yes. Yeah, I reckon that had something to do with it. Definitely not gonna do. I wonder if that I've just like disappear out of the world. And it's not doing When I was talking before about it's never too late to learn new things. I have a camera now ticket 14. Yeah, I was actually I was gonna ask you that, you know, text sorry. Yeah, I, like I said, my price started to burn me out because it was like, I'd be up from one o'clock, two o'clock three o'clock in the morning making stuff ready for the market and stuff like that. And I remember I was doing a big fate I did a big fair, Tennyson, when they used to have a big fairs. And we had another one come up and I was just going to do this. And it was sold out in a day. Wow. And we have two days. And I'm like, so I was up till four o'clock in the morning, trying to get more stuff done to take the next day just to look like it was something there. And I remember saying to my husband, I don't think I can do this anymore. He said, Well, I said I'm just exhausted. I just can't do it. And the joys probably tape been taken out of it. Because it became too much of a job. Not an enjoyment. And so I get Okay, guys that I'm paying my now tech, she was going overseas and she said you never thought about being an outer and I just thought, oh hell no, I'm not working like you do. Anyway, she said to me, it's not like that. She said, You don't have to OSI. I'm in Adelaide and my train. And and yeah, I've worked from home for 20. Next January 20 years. COVID actually really affected my business. Yeah. In a big why. And then Pete and I went on a holiday and that affected my business. And in the end. You know, I think I think it's time time for a change. Yeah, so Yeah, John out, I'm gonna do something. Oh, yeah, I've got my eyes out on some filling work. You know. But yeah, I've got a few clients still, and I'm happy to stick with them for a little bit longer. And I know the time will come that I'll give it up because the body My back is not the best. And from leaning over 20 isolating. So I'm quite enjoying, like this work. I've only got four clients. That's fine. Like, you know, so I just enjoy it. And that's why I've really enjoyed the last few years of not being so busy and have to spend more time with my grandchildren to help out when it's needed if she's got to go into their business and do stuff. I mean, Pete just because my hat we sold we sold our main business five years ago. And so he works for the guy that brought it but he didn't go off when every law Yeah, so you know, last year we did two months traveling Australia in front of COVID. Everywhere we were when we left and to do that, we'll get to Queensland Raquel guys, Mum. Watch you guys were in lockdown. I saw that on the news. Like we've just got out of there. And the next place Oh my goodness to get stuck in our springs for a little bit. But yeah, it was crazy. We're just in front of it. I'm glad I'm glad life is going back to a bit of normality. There was more damage done in mental health than what there was in sickness. You know? It's just crazy and mental health. There's not enough support network. My brother has shared a lot with me about his and why he has been treated at that hospital is appalling. Not not being listened to. Nobody listened. As to nobody wants to believe it is all in your head. Yes, people that's mental illness, yes, get fired and do not have the support in mental health where it is needed. Like I said, I've lost two brothers due to mental health. One was so solid, and the other one had been an alcoholic since he was in his 20s. And I watched him wither away. And it was just really, really sad. byte of memory 49 They didn't get to 50. So, you know, and watching my baby brother, who lives here who is not well, and he shared some stuff with me other day. And when he left, I cried. Because I can't do anything. It's not my place to do anything. But it is absolutely the system's place. Yeah, just putting the right systems to help these people that need that help. And we live in a world it's all about money. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's something frustrates me so much. Everything is driven by money. Every single thing is driven by money. Unless you got money, you can't do nothing do and it's like, come on up. It's just crazy. I don't ever regret staying home being a mom. I loved being a mom. And I didn't go into the workforce and to make school so she was seven. So I was taught my girls, there's two things in life, you're going to sacrifice something. And I say it's going to be your family or it's going to be finance, you cannot have both. You cannot have lots of money, and be working, working, working. And expect to have the most amazing relationship. And I know there are some families that don't. But I know there are a lot of families out there that struggle. And I know, I remember my kids growing up, and I remember hearing their friends saying to them, You guys are so lucky that your mum is home. And their parents, both their parents say they could get whatever they wanted. Their parents brought them on it. It's not about that. It's about the quality time that you have with your kids. And, and I know their families out there because of the cost of living today and the cost of houses today. It isn't the best paint Nystrom to live. We the mortgage might not have been much back then. But neither was our high factor. Yeah, that's it's all relative. It's all relative like today. The pay packets are big, but your mortgage is a big. It's all the same packing line and pizza day. Like I've been in this house for 37 years. Yeah, this is the house he built when he was 23. Like, you know, I might have a lot now. But we've been here for a long time. Yeah. Let's see. It was instant. No, yeah. Worked out and made sacrifices. When I met Kate Kate heavies house when I met him. We had two beanbags in the lounge room. Yeah, we had beanbag, a bed, and a table. And that was it. There was no extras, there was no fancy stuff. And even as we're having our kids, we brought a lot of secondhand furniture, because the money just wasn't there. So you went without. And with my creative side, and during the markets, I brought some of my furniture from my house. And that was a good feeling because I'm not working. But I brought that yeah, it's such a good feeling. And, you know, but your life's not about money. You need money to live. But we don't, you know, you can't take it when you die. Nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. And so I really feel that life. Sometimes, sometimes I believe that life needs to go back to the basics. teaching in schools need to go back to the basics. Yep. Everything needs to go technology. It has its it has its purpose in life. And it's great and lies but Perth technology has already, I've noticed has destroyed humanity in a big way. I believe that kids play and use their imaginations. It's got to have technology in their hands. You know, and it's really really, really sad. Lee Our grandson, he's just at that stage where he wants to grab the phone all the time. And he knows they're all in grandma's house. The phone's off limits. Yeah. None of my grandkids have ever touched my phone. Yeah, it is off limits. But I see what kids do with phones. And we just live in that world of that technology that they've got their faces in the phones or their tablets. Yeah, and I think, pick up a book. I love books, because they're awesome. There's some you're seeing the other day, because when I have people on the podcast that often send me their books if they're an author. And I think this is so good that bosses like I like music school online so much. But now records are coming back. You know, people still want things in the hands. You know, it's almost like projecting that so as the stage that pokes it was when the Kabu tablets come out to read books. Yeah. And I do use it at certain times, even on my phone, I use it at certain times. And that's when we're traveling. And I haven't really taken away the books. So that the purpose Yeah, but you can't read a book in your head. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. I just finished a book at the moment. And it was amazing and awesome, was away. And I was like, that's like yesterday, I was planning to do something for boys. And we went to the pub for lunch. And then I came home and I was laying down on Kashmir, and I'm like, I'm gonna have a man of that today. Don't do that. Yeah. And I laid on the couch. And I woke up at 530. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I slept through and it was crazy. So and then I didn't go to sleep till late last night. The concept of mum guilt is something that I'd like to talk to all my moms about on the show. And I guess I can throw it over to you to share your thoughts on that. We've had that before. My mum guilt has been Did I do it? Right? I say sometimes I'll say some struggles my kids go through. And I was quite a protective mum. One my five. But two because of where I came from. So I had an abusive father. So I went through a lot. So I probably tried to over protect my kids safe for a while. And, you know, I just made sure that I tried to spend as much time with my kids and do the kid things. And so most of the time my creative side didn't connect to them. Yeah, right. Yeah. So it was once they were in bed, then some shaman come out, or the paint brushes that come out. That when they were young definitely spent lots and lots of time. Because once they're at school, you have all the time in the world to do all the things that I needed. But what our little what I wanted to make sure. And then when they become teenagers, you do you have that monkey cool in the sense of Did I do it right? Did I overstep boundaries? Or, you know, I remember I have a lady asked me, What do you had three daughters? How do you do it? Like I remember, they're all different. None of them are the same. You can't treat them as the same because that individuals remember what you did. Because they're going to do it. So it doesn't matter. You can go well I did this and my kids are not going to do that. And guess what people? Yes, they are not going to tell you why girls have told me so many things now that they're adults. Am I happy about it? No. But you know it everyone's life. And yeah, we survived to house three teenage girls. Yeah, we didn't have two bathrooms. At the time. So far, my husband has been around him because he's got three sisters or goodness even the animals are females you're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was in New Haven. As a mature woman these days, when I talk to younger mums, the biggest thing I say to women off today, don't feel guilty, like the mum guilt, or you no need to spend more time with them, or I haven't done this with them or that that only pulls you down. That doesn't help them either. But I remember reading something quite a while back. And if I hadn't known this, I think things might have been different. And it's putting, putting the aspects of your life in order. And this guy said, it's, you need to put yourself first, you have to look after yourself. Because if you don't look after yourself, and you fall into a hole, everything around you falls into a hole. So you've got to and it's not about being selfish, it's about just giving yourself a little bit of quality time, go away. My quality time with the kids while I'm having a bar hump and nighttime, yeah, they knew they couldn't come into their mum's time, you know. And it's just a time for you to just chill out or whatever. They put your husband next, not your children, yeah, marriages fall apart, because the husband comes to a point where it just think he's not loved and not wanted anymore. Because we were so busy with our kids, and everything else that they become lost. And so this gentleman said it should be you put yourself first put your husband next, then your children, then everything else comes after that. And being a mature person now and I can look at that guy. And that is so true. Because I know the struggles that my marriage went through and the hardship that my marriage went through. And if things if we had a built a marriage differently on those aspects, we would have had a stronger marriage, you know, we're still together, praise God, we're still together. But um, you know, and I think that's important. And you're not to allow those self doubts to control you. Because that can happen. Big time. You know? You can look back in life, I suppose. I've been through a lot in my life. And and it's there's been doubts, in fact, did this this way. That wouldn't happen. You can't do that. Yeah, that's yesterday. You can't do in the past. You know, forgiveness, huge thing, a positive thing that everybody needs to do. I bring an outtake, you hear a lot of things. Yeah. You hear a lot of things in I've heard a lot of sad things in my life with people, the hatred that they hold towards a family member, or the, you know, a mother and daughter that hadn't spoken for 25 years. And that just rips me to pieces because my mom and I were so close. We did so much together and then losing her so young. And I always, I always come back to what I say to my girls never allow anything to come between us. Not a disagreement. Not everybody has the right to have their own personal choice of something. But if something comes between us, don't be too pigheaded to go and say I'm sorry. Even if the other person did something wrong. You'd be strong enough to go I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. I love you. I care about you. Please don't let this affect everybody. unchecked, because we allow the little things for too long to destroy and take a look at the world. It's just distracting itself in life, you know? And it's quite sad answer keys, Nurse causes sickness in the body. Yeah, it causes depression, it causes so much more. And, you know, I've seen so much through my brothers. Everything, they still hold anger and resentment against my dad, for how he treated us and what he put us through. And I got to the point, I forgave him when I was 19. I became a mom at 19. And I wanted more and better for my life, and also for her life. And at that time, I wasn't even a believer in God. I believe now that God spoke to my heart, because I made that choice to forgive him and move on. And, you know, it took a long time for me to learn to love him again. And I think deep down I always did, because he was my dad. Did I like the person he had to come? No, not at all. And sometimes you don't have to, like, who's someone that comes. But that hatred, it's not a good thing. It will disrupt everything around you, it will destroy your marriage, it will destroy your life between you and your children. And it's, it's not a good thing. And you see so much hatred in the world. And that's why there is so much destruction. And I think, living a positive life. And I know some people find that hard. But being a positive person isn't that hard. It's just looking and believing for better, you know, believing that it can get better. And yes, sometimes it doesn't. But it's having that hope. That's what God gives me that hope in life, life will be better. And I think a lot of people blame culture a lot of things. I don't and we all have free will. And it does give us that free will. He gives me hope that even if you're going through a tough time, it can't get better. You have to want it and you just have to find a way to step out or our way. I love my artwork. Sweet German Yeah, a lot of my grandkids I give me enjoyment my children give me enjoyment. You got to find something that will give you a joy instead of just holding on to the negativity Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Cuz you're right. It is incredibly disruptive and as physically you know festers in your body and comes out in illnesses and disease and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it's it's it's a pretty massive thing to be able to forgive someone. You know, like you said, you don't have to lie. No, you don't have to like who they were at the time. Yeah. Or who you know, you don't have to like the situation. Yeah. But if you have that hatred in you, I know that person I became, in my teenage life, I didn't like who I was. And even though I tried really hard to be that bubbly person and be positive. I was felt like I was dying inside. And it wasn't until I made that decision to forgive my father. And it was pretty serious. The stuff that I went through in my family that most people thought, No way. Could I do that. But I did that because I wanted to. Yeah, it wasn't about him nice about that. Yeah. And you know what forgiveness isn't about the other person. But did you know, hatred is not about the other person? Because it actually doesn't hurt them? No, that's it, isn't it? You're the one suffering, you're the one that suffered. So the hatred festers in you makes you an angry person, a wild person out of control person, and the person you're putting all that hatred to, doesn't even know what you're feeling. So you know, and I realized that 19 isn't very profound. And I always look back at that. And I remember exactly, I could see myself doing it in my bedroom, it led straight just around the corner. And recall was one years old. I was before I met. So yeah, and I just, and I think that's fine. We can have bad days, we can get upset, that's life that happens, we can die have days of crime on the couch. Been there done that too. But if you allow those situations to fully control you, and not have to step out of them, that's when the depression really comes in. And I've watched that one of my closest friends, due to a situation that have ended depression has just taken a hold of it. And it's really sad. It's sad to watch. It said, I feel helpless, because I can't help it out of it. Try. But you know, that we can do is be there for them. Yeah, that's it. Like you said, it's, you can try. But that person has had gone to do the work, which is unfortunate, but also powerful for them. If they embrace that, you know, they're in control of this situation, they can get themselves out of it. Yeah. If people can get themselves out of it. But I think if there's support networks, not out there, oh, yeah. Let's say, you can't do it on your own. You know, watching my brother became an alcoholic, his whole life, you know, bumped into him down the street was really sad, because we sci fi switch up. And that's all that would come out. And I think, you know, I didn't know who he was. But I was there for him when he was dying, because I swore that he would never suffer on his own in the end. And that was really that that was really, really tough. That wasn't easy. Sitting at a hospital watching someone's life, you know, disintegrate like that. But it also made me a stronger person. Knowing that, you know, if we've got family members that are going through the hard times. Even though we can't always change the situation. All we need to show them is that we still love them. And I think that's the important thing. Because you see some families where they go, oh, yeah, I can't be bothered dealing with her anymore. It's just too much hassle. And she's over exaggerating. And data added. I just think she's your family. Just love her. Just love her for who she is. Yeah, it's not easy, but it's not easy for them to know how to how they can even comprehend what goes through their heads. You just can't comprehend it. And and so it's just a matter of loving and caring about those people that are in your family, whether it's your children. You know, I saw a lady the other day and she came up and said hello to us at lunch yesterday in Shetland baby in arms and it's all babies it's been fostered and, and fine. I just looked at each other and it just went Oh, that is so sad. Like, you know, it's been in the foster system since he was five days old. And, you know, it's we had to help society. How do you help people to change? I think trying to teach people how to be positive how to have hope. Yeah. It's a pretty good message. I have heart. Yeah. That was a big thing that's really important. When you became a newer, like, you talked about having a bath and like this is this is your time, you know, you've got three girls in the house. Was it hard to keep your own identity? As Judy, when you was putting so much into you? I think you do focus a little bit. When when, especially when your children are really young. Because when they're really young, they totally depend on uni and everything. So you know, that might drive Yes. Oh, oh, later on, when I gotta get out, I'm going to shut off. Yeah, yeah, I do think you do lose a little bit. Like I said, giving yourself some space. And having a bit of you time is important. Going out on a date with your husband. It's important. They are important things. And I think a lot of time we get so busy with everything around us. And I know I'll definitely do. Like I said, it wasn't until way after the kids were gone that I made that bet how to put your family, you know, you, your husband, and then your children. And so a lot of time, you're so busy with your children and doing this and doing that and doing this and that you don't give yourself and so you do lose a part of yourself. My goal, it was really funny. Growing up, I wanted to be a beautician. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. A lot of fun cover a lot of fashion like that has brought right from a little girl mom was always in my mom's wardrobe. She's like, you know, so, but it didn't happen. And then I became a nya tech at 14. And I actually went and did a little bit of makeup artistry. Because I was gonna do that with the now. But now it's just too much more time. So I just ended up letting go. But it was it was a dream as a child, that's what I wanted to do. And so there for a while, I felt like I had lost a part of myself because I didn't get to do what I wanted to do. But I loved being a mum. So and I made that choice. My husband and I we sat down and we discussed I have a daughter when I met Pete she was two and I met him. And so then when we had our children we discussed and I said what do you want? If you want me to go and find a job or gone and he said no. This is it really for the girls. You know, and I think that's because we've commanded the passport mums did yeah, I can i and t they were time financially, that extra money would have been handing, but we need to go without you learned to go without you learn to just live off what they've got, you know, they still have food in their stomach and a roof over their head. You know, and at that stage that sort of opened my eyes up to my mom, because my mom bringing us five kids up on her own. But same thing we had a roof over our head, clothes on our back feed on their feeding or something. We're closed speech at night though A lot of times over secondhand clothes, mom did a bit of work in one of the secondhand shops. And she picked right through it and buy some nice things. But, you know, she did what she had to do as a single mom in the end. And I mean, in the early days, there was no pension. Yeah, she was lucky, because my mom was so sick, she couldn't actually hold a job down. But the pension had just come in and wholesome very much, but she managed. I was 16 When my dad left, so I left school to go out work to help provide for my family, you know, it wasn't well, and it wasn't easy. I didn't have the best model with work in my early days. And, and I was on the dole, well, that's fine. I handed that over to my mom, like, you know, yeah, I did what I could do. But losing a part of your identity. I think happens to all of us at some stage in our life, I think that have a life. And they should become a really big, career driven one. Do you think that helped you come back to yourself? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It was all they always say. I caught up with an old girlfriend at Christmas time. We were best friends growing up. And I hadn't seen her for a long time. And she come in and she said, Where did it come from? I said, I think it was always there. I used to draw a lot as a young girl, I'd sit my bedroom, paper and Palin. I think growing up in a house full of men. It was my only way to get away from everything. So I'm sitting in my bedroom a lot with drawing whatever car I knew I loved cars. And so I said it was always there. Just the finances weren't there for me to do it. So even being a single mom, the finances were there to do it. My creativity was really big on my dressmaking. I would go into this fabric store that we used to have in town. And and I knew Margaret quite well, because her daughter and I went to school together and I would go in and she said so what are we looking for today? Do just a bit of February. She said I function on the weekend. Okay, yep. Gotcha. Yeah, didn't have the money to go and buy a fully priced fabric. So I would go through and reminisce. And I'd say that my oldest is big enough for school. Why can I pick that? And then I'd go through. Oh, hey, this. That'll work. Yeah. Spend $5. Yeah, I think sometimes it cost me February. And I could back then because I used to write really simple basic stuff. I didn't need a pen color pattern off something that I had. So that creativity Big Time Bank as a single mum. And because I used to put my money into my daughter to buy her clothes or make some clothes for her. So I would just buy the scrap fabrics to make something for myself. Yes. So and I worked on my mom's trailside washing Peter gown. Oh, wow. And then then I met Pete and his mum gave me her old Brother Song fishing. She said you know don't use it anymore. You can have it. And I was like what Christmas is kind of what Yes, like I really miss the old treadle they are they have do French things really well. Yeah. That stitcher was also funny So, I think if you can look back at your life and, and not look at the negativity of your life, because we've all had bad stuff, a lot of us have had bad stuff in life. But look at the things that have made you who you are. You know, my mom, she was my biggest inspiration. I want it to be like her. I think she'd be proud of. So she's smarter than me. She'd be laughing at something she'd be like, Jeanne kitchen. I look at my girls. And like, I was blessed to have daughters hung up in a house for me. All I wanted was a sister. Yeah. I want a sister. That's not gonna happen. I have it all. I have my sister in law that I'm really close to. But, you know, I really believed I was blessed to be given dollars, because it was like given me something that I credit for as a child. That sister. You know, I'm the oldest in the family. And then it's boy, boy, that was five of them. Five, very close in age. My mom had six kids in five years, Holly, Molly's twins. Goodness gracious. And I used to say to her, Hey, did mom and then when the kids were growing up, she would say something like I had one you've got three teenagers and I knew what she was going oh my god. Yep, I've got three that's a challenge. whities get to teenagers. My oldest grandson just turned 16. Yeah, right. Goodness. So what's the age range of your grandchildren? So from 16 to four months? Oh, wow. Yeah, right. Yeah. Oh, lovely. So there's four boys and four girls. I have here two boys and girls just steaming. And then the other girls listen to this. Now there's no favoritism. But Stevie's here, and she's the only girl that I've got to spend time with. And so I love spending time with her. But I love going to Queensland and spending time with my other grandkids. So I've got three here and five up there. So yeah, so there's two boys and three girls. Yeah, so yeah, oldest to 16. And the youngest is five months. So and that brothers, by the way, yeah. Right. To say, to say Brooklyn, with his baby brother in his arms. And like it, he's six foot to six foot three. And he's got a photo of his brother in his arms. just melted. And honestly, when he was born, I was just like, wow. So, you know, that's pretty big age gap. And I know that gap will be there for a long time. But there will come a time where that gap will disappear. You see that with a siblings where there's, you know, ages between them. So you know, I hadn't hadn't families don't like 13 kids. So that's when the mom really would have lost her identity. She reminds me of down at Kleiner. D. There's a gravestone because my grandparents buried there. My dad saw it. And it just says, Mother, it doesn't even say good night. It was like literally that's what she was just being a mother. You know, she probably had just finished reading a novel and it was written in the times of before women could vote. Yeah, and how go home and breed. Anyway, this one woman, she was quite well to do. But she got kicked out and she ended up in a mining town. Well, she inherited a news agency from her while she thought it was her uncle, and as she found out it was actually her father. So she inherited this and everybody said now she's not gonna laugh. She's not gonna laugh. And she was determined and she changed that whole town. Yeah, aspect of that whole town. How people looked at things and how people do things. I mean, it was a Christian novel, and it was so well written. Francine rivers, she's one of my favorite horses. But he was how women were looked at. Oh, yeah. And I know we've come a long way. In that sometimes I worry about, have we taken away too much from the Ventus identity? Because there are a lot of families out there that women roam the house. And I don't know, something my husband and I have talked about that, you know. And I don't believe we have to live in a world where the husband just goes up and works all day and the woman stays home and does nothing, I don't believe in it. But I definitely believe in equal, equal equal, not. Even a woman shouldn't be higher than men. And women should be equal treat each other equally. And I know there's still men out there that are like cavemen who want to, you know, hold the roast and drag the woman by the hair, like, you know, Oh, guys, just time for a while, but the world technology has definitely changed the world. I suppose Britain and abroad changed the world to. I remember, a lady sent me a lot of print. And she separated from her husband. And like I said, pipeline, and we separate the fact that she said, How did you say that you said, because we wanted to make it work. We could have just taken the easy way out. But at the end of the day, it was only gonna hurt our kids, it's gonna hurt ourselves. And at the time, could have quite easily just walked out and started a new life. And that wasn't my that wasn't my motto. That wasn't my dream. My dream was to be with Caleb for the rest of my life. And to watch, I think, because I grew up in it. You know, my dad walked out on us. No, I did not want to do the same thing. And this made us stronger. Because we fought harder. And I think we need to fight harder for things in the world that we're living today. It's too easy just to go on. I'd love you. Anyone leaving? Yeah. Do you think that's why the the, the percentages of of divorce have skyrocketed. A couple of generations of people scattered jihad, and off they go. I know, I know a few people that said they wish that given a better chance. You know, if I only had, because it's more of my screen. Offense, that's the thing isn't? Fair, it's just go with the same thing. Yeah. Like, you know. Some, and I think that's where if we do the right balance in our lives, in our families, with you, your husband, your children, then everything else after that. If you do that right balance, then I really believe that the balance will be right in your family too. Because you're so busy with the kids, you're so busy with everything else running around, you don't give that quality time to your partner. And then what happens you drift apart. So you don't connect the way you used to. And to try and make that connection again, isn't easy. It's hard work. But you know, and then try it once your kids move away. Yeah. And you're living in a house and I know, lots of marriages that break up at that point. Because, you know, you're not even talking together. Yeah, you just live in a house together. And so, you've got to start again, to build that relationship. And some people just can't be bothered to do that. So they just think well, I'm done on on out of this. You know, my husband has his creative side. He loves work given he's done like we've renovated our house and picked it a lot of stuff in the house. The petitioner the door, he built it in my fireplace mantel piece. He built the book all over that they sit under he built um so he he has his creative side of things. And he races off road buggies and he was just a way this weekend. You got to allow them to have their space to wait Want to have our space but they've got to have their space as well. And my husband and I, we don't live in each other's pockets. Quite comfortable. Pricing, I didn't want to go this time. So I did last month I went this month I stayed on. I was quite happy to stay home. And, and sometimes I don't go away as much as I used to. I used to go away a lot as a now ticked go away with training and stuff. And he was quite happy with that. I think you just got to come to an agreement. And learn to live together in that way. And learn to work together, work together as parents for your children. Not allow one person to make all the decisions. Yeah, not to allow poor moms. I think moms get bad rap, really. Because that's a wild die and mom's busy. Gone. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do this. And then dad walks in the door and go, you can do what you like. Yes, you know, yeah. And my mom used to say that we were always really naughty girls for her all day, and the dad would come home and then we'd be on our best behavior. Daddy was bowing. It was going be too scared to be naughty. Don't try to your father ago. I remember watching Pete sit down behind Barbie dolls with the girls. You know, his role was when he walked in the door. Let me have more coffee. Stop having coffee. We I know in business. So yeah. And it's hard to switch off from that. It's like you just you're all the time because it's you. And you know, like he's loving right now being semi retired because he goes to work, he comes home for lunch. And then he comes home at the end of the day. And he has no headaches. We had a business for 36 years. So we had those headaches for 36 years. And but he always made quality time for his kids. We always made sure we weren't working on the weekends, every now and then he'd pop into the office on a Saturday morning or hid behind, I would pop into the office because I'd have to go and do a bit of work. But let's say that when we took over the business, that was something I had to step into. Yeah. Because before that we had a secretary when we had the two partners. So then when he left financially, we couldn't afford to pay anybody. So it was like I gave up my art studio to go work in the office. And that wasn't too bad because I didn't need to be there 24/7. So I would be there a couple of days a week to do or okay paydays these days, I'd go in there for two hours and leave. So being an outtake, and doing that, it was a bit of a juggle, but it worked. Because I could still do business more than myself in my own business, and juggle that, but still be there to do what I had to do with the other business. And I was so happy when that was so quiet my monthly you know, best. And I remember when it takes changing from and then the GST came in and everything and that slightly, I had to go and do training, like, and then we had to get all this special. And the technology and when you're in business and thinking of like we started, Pete started his business in the IDs. And then, you know, the technology year after year after year changing and how things were done. I remember even in the early years, he would come home with written codes. And I would sit down at the table to do them properly. Yeah, he would do the rough. Like yeah, I'd be on that boat what does this mean? And then because he wanted to go computerized and his business partner didn't want to spend the money so in the end when we brought him out we went for computerized so I'm going to type to how to work a computer. Yeah, I think we have a special program so that didn't even work anyway. So it was like my general this training all over again. Because yeah, this program it was because we had a panel breeding business was specially made for that. Yeah. And then you go from the das System to Windows system. Everything changes so off just completely changes over time. But yes, I'm so glad I've done so Want to know? What do you want to know how will sleep? Three just turn three? He just said his birthday. And his favorite thing amongst attracts nah. Yeah, I mean yet lots of them lots of of hate here. He just loves him and he gets them away. We've lined them all up around the island. Bye, guys. How about this one? Down the hallway of her house. Okay, so quiet getting busy. Kind of interesting. So I want to ask you, bear, I've been watching on your Instagram, this evolution of this painting that you're working on at the moment. I used to do a lot of fine art paperwork for probably seven years. And that's great. But a lot of hours go into it. And not because I stopped doing the paintbrush because it's just so much miss and time and being an artist. I just didn't have the time because I was pretty much working full time. And so then the payment was good, because I can't watch TV without doing something. Yeah, I could have that sitting on it. Or just don't attend to live pieces. How can you do that and watch TV at some point. I'm not watching on this thing. Yeah, yeah. If I need to look I can. I can I can teach the white crow strings crashing. I watched the video guy that Crusher Crusher Crusher really fast one Yeah. No. Why would you even do that? It's about enjoyment. Enjoy. Yeah. There's not a competition to say how quick you can crusher a blanket, right? Yeah. Anyway, I was watching this video on this boy. And he was crushing so fast. He kept me here. But anyway, so I was doing all this paperwork for a long time. And then I decided to challenge myself on watercolor. And so I enjoy that, because that's just an easy, relaxed. And what got me back into the brushes also did a painting for both her house and was huge. Yeah, absolutely. Two meters by 1.5. It was enormous. She had brought a piece of artwork for a bedroom, and she wanted to get one for a dining room and kept saying, show me like two guys go and say Ma'am, you can do that. Yeah, I can do. So I said I can do that. Anyway. So I'll jump for you if you want might as well even copy the painting that you love. And just change it up a little bit. Anyway, because it was it was pretty much block car, like there was no detailing in it. So anyway, she walked away. And she came back she was already righty. So I'll do up here for Christmas present. So it was kind of paint brush back in my hand. I'm liking this. So I'm doing at the moment is what it's going to hang out front door. I just have a picture of these big flowers, and it's gonna have a butterfly in the middle of it. So butterfly. And then I was looking at photos of butterflies and flowers. And I'm like, well I have can I do that because butterflies are actually bigger than flowers. I just don't want a butterfly on a canvas doesn't matter. It's just the concept of it. And what I'm enjoying at the moment is this no rush. It's when I'm in the mood, go up there and do a little bit more, you know, non flowers. And I like to think about what I'm doing I like to think about and I like to study flowers. So I like a bit of detail work not just a block color. And I mean, before I started I was on Pinterest looking I get lots of paintings, modern artwork and lots of stuff trying to work out what I wanted. I just wanted I just decided I wanted to pop a color in the house. As you can see, my places hasn't been of color, but not a huge amount. It's a very nice color you teach you and yeah, so when we renovated the house, we wanted everything. It used to be Craven flooring. Anyway, so when I repainted I went for that really nice. It's called like rice in the living room. And that's pretty much true the rest of the house when I come to the kitchen, I need some color in here. Because otherwise it would just look playing from the tiles and everything would have just got lost. Yeah, yeah. The paychecks I know and I painted some colors. Well, he went down and I painted my kitchen. Oh, my friends laughed about it. When he come home is like we've had this color before our bedroom yesterday this car. Okay, but it's my favorite color. So decayed blue. It's easy to live with. But yeah, I wanted to pop a color. So I've done these flowers and they're like, apricot a terracotta Yeah. And then it'll have a butterfly that I've been looking at lots of peaches, butterflies. I'll find one that really jumps at me. And she's been in the shade these first I was at the Melbourne Zoo and Melbourne Museum during the week. And the amount of dead animals that they have there are people who have like the the wooden sort of frames and then in the butterfly oh my gosh, there was some absolutely gorgeous one. Oh, that's amazing. Butterflies are like the like the the vibrancy. I can't see the reflection of the grass. But the vibrancy in these colors. I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, they exist like that. Yeah, I'll continue that one. That's it kids birdwing? Yeah, just because I've got the ICER caught on something with a bit of blue on it. Yeah. You have to have blue in it. That's a trademark is nobody goes on about my turquoise and aqua colors. But it's just an easy color to take come home. And it was great posturing, the chairs and the old Dawn swing. I had done three and I needed to do the other three. Because I finally finishing those. I said yes. And sorry. Anyway, come back and said I just need to tell you because I sit down. I'm finishing these because I've solved the tables. Why have you sold it? Because I probably knew that my girlfriends and I was showing her and she said what are you gonna do and I went by the phone technology is good sometimes. It has. So reposting so you're quite adept at that is not intricate, but the seats were just plain and I got a quote to get them down like you're not paying that. So I think I could do a count to I'd love to have my couch reupholstered in there because it's just gotten really glossy and also dependent Yeah, I'm actually tempted to make a slip cover for Yeah, so I said depends on me. I'll try and make a slip cut before I said because the cushions I can cover the cushions is enough to try and get that couch that rams Yeah, so I just thought oh, maybe a challenge for you. Yeah. Every now and then that's literally like your motto in life be seen. Give it a crack and see how it goes. I even my son little bit of money, but there's a feeling when you give something a challenge and you do it. It's like I did that. Wow, that makes me feel good. You know. I had my friend that came in the other day that did a bit of painting with me. She's looking at my artwork. She's like, No, no, we're not buying artwork. When I do artwork. I don't see the point. Yeah, and this. I have one case that I brought. I have a friend in Victoria And I was chatting with her. And she's a quirky artist. And, and obviously my early days of joining the penwork and I just fell in love with this place. And she was funny. She thinks it's one of the worst places she said I still got, you know, but I don't have the money to go out and spend 1000s of dollars on a piece of art. But I can have a painting up on a wall and I can go Yeah, I'm over that now. Yeah, can I change? I need to change and change that. Yeah. Because I've got another big canvas that's gonna get on that wall. Yeah, and that's a meter and a half by meter so it's quite few so I'd have thought about what I'm gonna do my not yet finished. Yes, it finished your flowers. So what inspires you then with you? You're painting like natural the natural world it's just anything that anything anything that bugs me yet you know, at the moment, birds have grabbed me as you can see, I've got a few birds. I follow he's a Krishna has over in Russia or somewhere over Ukraine or wherever, somewhere over that way. And he does these most amazing food paintings. And there's actually a lady in Australia. who works at Castlemaine. And she does really good ones, too. I kik messenger, so many to teach. I want to come over for a workshop. You know, it's not about if something just grabs my attention, yeah, like, you know, yeah. I've had a go at some of the really ultra modern art. Yeah, and that's easy. Five Year Old can do that. Like real abstract, sort of, yeah, splashes and things like that. Yeah. Pete's got one in the family room. I've been going to get rid of at night Smart Girls. So yeah, and I say that you know, it's like when you decorate your home if you think over the years I've been here 37 years Yes. Big coats of paint and with that cover so and right now what's coming really big apricot? Yeah, I forgot become a huge again. Well, ladies, guess what? It was really big in the 90s. So you know, you go you go through those changes and country country. Oh, my goodness. I had chickens walking around my walls. Yeah, you know, chicken phrase wallpaper and and we all have a laugh about it. Remember, mom's kitchen. Terracotta rag down the bottom and change changes, good changes. Good. You're not afraid of change. Now. You know what? I went and visited my mother the other day. And their house still looks like the way it was when they brought it. They've never done anything new to us that they did put in a new kitchen. But when you go into their lounge room, we've still got the 70s couch. But it's really clean and it's really tidy. And doesn't feel oh, yeah, right. But it's so them and they're not at 90s. And I just think what I love fresh. It's not about changing the furniture. It's about just having a fresh coat of paint or if a curtains I've just replaced my curtains do these? Yeah, it's about and I've done that expensive. Paying, you know, someone to make curtains now comes as spotlight. Yeah, it's ready to hang on. To him. Yep. But But yeah, it's, you can you can decorate your home on the smallest budget, but you can decorate your home on the biggest budget. And you know, I think it's people so you've got so much and you can do it. Oh, you see on the site in my studio. There's a lot of stuff. Like because I like things. Yeah, I'm very sentimental. Yeah, so if someone gave me something or I've got something from somewhere special, that's not going away. That's gonna, you know, I just like it's clean and tidy, but there's just a lot of stuff in there. I like a homely feel in a house of like a lift in your house that feels like someone lives in a not a house like that. Yeah, I couldn't live like that, like kitchens clean at the moment. Like, you know, it's like you said before, it's a lot of things. So Do you know when? When when you're a mum of three young children, and there's plenty of us out there that you stress yourself out because your house doesn't look a certain way. Don't worry about it. Don't let the things of what other people think, get to you. Because I remember I met a girl for the first time. Anyway, we were going to a function of something. And she said, I'll pick you up, dude. I'm not Yeah, right now. Anyway, and she knocked on the door and I yelled at come in and, and I was sitting at the fire rating the girls here and just had their boss they had their pajamas on. And I was going to be away for two nights. And so I wanted to make sure everything was right and whatnot. And when I was in her car, she goes, I owe you an apology. I say why? And she said, because I've judged you without actually getting because someone told me that you live in a pigsty. And I said to her, what, because I have three children there. Sometimes it's Washington everywhere. And this and that. And I said to her, I said, I don't judge people by their homes. If I want to be friends with someone, and things get on top of them. Who can't go and visit them for them. Don't make people because that what happens is then you stop wanting people to come to your house. Because you put yourself in a box and you go, Oh, if that's what people think I don't want them to come and listen, I'm not good enough to have people into my mind. Yeah, that's right. And it's not this not a nice feeling to have. I just laughed. I was just like, No, but I knew who it was. I was gonna say it was that first and saying things like, yeah, it was and I just thought, you know what, that's a problem. Okay. Because I have a home. Yeah. And it probably shows to, you know, some people judging people. So people can look very superficially, like, what's really important to this is worrying what people think of them. Yeah, you know, I don't care what people think, you know, I've got a brother who's really, really sick, has no energy, and his house is upside down. Now, I've lost a superficial person, I wouldn't even step into his house. I try and offer to help him because might not know. But it's not. It's not about, you know, I get a lot of comments from people come into my house, and I take that. Thank you very much. But I don't do my house up, plays out. There's yeah, I've done my house that I like. And it's like all of a sudden, a few have, because I love the Hamptons. Yeah. And on a few blocks, and I've put up a couple of photos. It was a couple of negatives. And I said, You know what, if you don't like what I've done, that's fine by me. But you can keep your opinions to this thing. And so now I don't do social media. Yeah. It's always gonna be someone, there is always someone even if, even if they don't necessarily mean what they say there's someone who wants to cause drama, you know, they want to say negative comment because they want to interaction, you know, most people that say negative comments are people that are not happy with what they've got. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a real reflection on them. You know, same thing. bullies, and bullies, because something's going on in their life. Yeah, that's, you know, that wasn't what another big thing that I taught my children was, don't judge a book by its cover, you know? And have I been guilty of it? Absolutely. I remember a person who I became really good friends with. I judged her the first few times I met her. I thought she was stuck up, really. And then I was working for Justin jeans. And we had to do an ad. And so we had to spend a bit of time together because she was one of the other models. And then I got asked to take home and she invited me in for coffee. And we got sat down and had a chat. And she told me her life story and it broke my heart. Nobody knows what's going on in somebody's life. You know, I, myself, growing up through some pretty horrific stuff always came across a bubbly person that nobody knew deep down what I was going through. I still remember the good times. Yeah, because there's probably a lot more good times and negative. And sometimes the negatives can be really strong. So it's really hard to get your eyes away from Yeah, once you start looking back in and then I just think it's all the good times that we need to remember. Think wisdom comes from age. And if we can, I've learned a lot from older women. If I can't pass a bit of wisdom on to others that are listening in, I think then what are we here for? I think I think it's really wise and sustainless when our, my girls, once they get to, you get to a certain age and you go, Wow, if I hadn't done that a little bit different. Well, they've got kids pass it on to your kids. Yeah, because things won't change. Things aren't going to change unless we pass the wisdom on to our, to our children and our grandchildren. And, you know, my biggest thing is, give it a go. Don't be scared to give anything go. You know. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like it if you like it, that's fine. This is good. This is like a different dimension, a different perspective. You know, all the things you've been able to share today is wonderful. Because yeah, there's, I think sometimes when you're down in the trenches with your little ease, or you know, your newborns or different years that you're working through, you can think, Oh, it's so bad, I'll never get better. It's like, you know, you've been through all of that you're enjoying this next phase of your life. And it's really lovely to be able to share those experiences a good spot, you might cap live and let go of all and how you said those times where we feel like, do we do the right thing? It doesn't matter? Because you can't get back? Yeah. So what you do is you just take the next step on for July, and just love on your children, because the biggest thing is just love on them. And even when they become teenagers, like driving the same. And you know, one males and 17 You just love on your kids, and that should never stop should never stop you should constantly and they will definitely do things that you might agree with. And you know, and even as adults, they will do things that you won't agree with. And at the end of the day, they're still your children. And you still should love them no matter what. Because if they're not around you, it makes you really miss them lots and I miss my girls every day. And I miss my mum every day. And I'm watching now my friends dealing with their older parents. So part of means I miss my mum but a part of me it's glad I don't have to watch her get old and wither away either. But she she suffered enough in her early years. But you know, you just got to take life as it is. Make the most of it. But you're most of it, because nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. Yeah, you know, that's why we just need to leave for today and make the most of it and don't whinge about not doing something. Yeah, just go and do it. Just do it. Yeah, that's it. Thank you for today. Oh, thank you. Thanks. So lovely. Thank you for having me. Beautiful home. Welcome. I love these blues. It's like my jury. I gotta thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Eleesa Howard Australian contemporary mixed media visual artist S1 Ep25 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts In this final regular weekly episode for 2021 and Season 1, my guest is Eleesa Howard. Eleesa is a contemporary artist from the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria and a mum of 3. She works with multiple mediums including acrylics, oil pastels and collage, and is not afraid to experiment with any materials on hand. Eleesa approaches her expressionist style in an intuitive way, using her painting and collages as a way of letting go, of not over-thinking life and instead focusing on the positive and joyous in every day. Her works are reflective, exploring relationships, emotions, and connections to her family, community, and environment. Eleesa is currently focusing on exploring sentimental childhood memories, motherhood and the everyday moments. Today we chat about being clear and communicating your art making needs, using art to move through challenging transitions in life, drawing inspiration from strong female figures in her life and the joys of raising teenagers. Eleesa website / instagram View Eleesa’s latest series Memories Are Made Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their heart. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in. In this final regular weekly episode for 2021 and Season One, my guest is Elisa Howard Elisa is a contemporary artist from the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria, and a mom of three. She works with multiple mediums including acrylics, oil, pastels and collage and is not afraid to experiment with any materials she has on hand. Elisa approaches her expressionist style in an intuitive way, using her painting and collages as a way of letting go of not overthinking life, and instead focusing on the positive and joyous in every day. Her works are reflective, exploring relationships, emotions and connections to her family, community and environment. Elisa is currently focusing on exploring sentimental childhood memories, motherhood, and the everyday moments. Today, we chat about being clear and communicating your art making needs using art to move through challenging transitions in life, drawing inspiration from strong female figures, and the joys of raising teenagers. Thank you so much for coming on today, Alisa. It's a real pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. You're a visual artist. Tell us about the mediums that you work in and the sort of style that you do. Yeah, so I'm an abstract artists, I guess sort of more expressionism might say, I work with a bit of mixed media. So I use mostly acrylic paints, and collage oil pastels, pretty much have a go with anything that is sort of laying around really. And it seems to evolve. And chop, chop and change as you go along. So yeah, that sounds like a bit of fun, actually. It's like the sort of open to any sort of anything. I said, I think if I stick with one thing all the time, I sort of start overworking it and then overthinking it. So it's good to have a few different things. So I don't like even at the moment, I'm doing some paperwork with collage on timber. But I've also got some paintings on the go as well. So just to just to mix it up. Yeah, that's cool. So how did you first get into painting and creating? Well, I like so many people as a creative kid. Always having a go with things. Drawing and you know, I remember being sort of I think Musclemania that for and draw. I was really into like Holly hobby and last in the prairie. imagining myself in what boots and frilly dresses. Yeah, a bit of a daydreamer. So and I remember drawing I had, I was drawing these profiles of these girls in bonnets and stuff. And yeah, I had friends asking me, Can you tell me mine occasionally? Well, so that was pretty cute. But you're pretty much high school, I guess where you're exposed to opportunities to have a go at different things. And different mediums and that sort of thing. My grandmother was quite always creative as well. So should there was always sort of that influence. From the beginning to Yeah, yeah. High School. Really? I guess. Yeah. And then from then you sort of did you go. Did you have a say a day job, but did you? How did you sort of progress once you left school? Did you go? Well, no, I didn't. I am. I ended up. I was really, I really loved photography. Actually. That's where I was sort of my spy doing art, but I love photography. And I sort of had a dream of being a photographer. Didn't really work how I ended up getting married very young, so about 20 and had my daughter, my first child at 23 as well. So just you know, you're busy working. You know, there's always things tinkering in the background, but nothing sort of serious. And then yeah, always sort of been. And then as I got I had kids always trying to sort of keep up with painting here and there. But then things get messy and you can't always do that. So no formal training, always just sort of trained myself to hurry. When was it? In 2018? I did do a Diploma of visual arts so when my youngest was heading into high school, it was a bit of a Oh, geez, okay, he's, this is my last one. What? Maybe it's time for me. And I was a bit lost. And so I ended up going to an open day at the local TAFE. And she's, and I just worked, I just instantly they walked into the rooms and like, this is it, I've gotta go, I've just got to do this. I've got to come here. So even though I'm still working a day job, I'm working three days and three days there, I was flat out, but I just made it happen. And I absolutely loved it. Especially like learning printmaking, and even the sculpture I had to go out and found that just really fascinating. So So that sort of kick started it back up again, really, you know, I've always done other things sewing, and I used to have market stalls and making quilts and things like that, to always have a creative outlet. Just not so much the visual art side until really then again, which was Yeah, so I took on a bit of a studio space and just dedicated time to it. And try not to feel guilty about it. Think Yeah, the age challenge for mom. Yeah, exactly. Yes. So tell us about your children. So you mentioning. Yeah. How many children do you have? I've got three children. So my oldest now, Bonnie, she's 25. She still lives at home. And then I've got my son, Finn, who's 22. And he just moved to Geelong and actually just during lockdown, like in June. So we haven't seen him for five months, which has been a bit hard. And then my youngest is Salman, and he's in New Year. 10. Next year, so yeah. And he's just about 15. Yeah, right. So we're sort of like this, you sort of used that, that creative outlet to sort of help you through a transition, I suppose, is sort of a change to the and how you looked at yourself? Yeah. I think especially my, when I had my daughter, I did stop work. And was really like a mom at home. And but I used to just go a little bit, you know, crazy. So I'd always have things on the go. Whether it was painting furniture, or you know, sewing outfits for her, just actually remember cuz she used to just cry so much. And always wanted movement, too. And so I actually remember rocking her with my right foot, like in the pram and then saw me with my left foot. By like, no kidding, I was like, I've got to get some stuff done. It sounds like you would have made a good drummer. I'm like, she was just a shocker. I didn't know how I even had any more kids after that. I'd been in the shower, and I had she'd be like in a baby rocker thing. And I have to have my foot out of the shower while showering just issues hard work. But yeah, always kept up those sort of things. You know, just I needed something. And I used to love being creative with the kids too. You know, I'd always have as I got older craft tables and try to get kind of man to which I really enjoy. Yeah. So any of them sort of continued with any sort of, like art practice or not? Well, the only one really is my middle one. He's quite creative. He's a musician. So he loves his music. He's also a chef. And he also just likes at the moment he's actually been dabbling in some painting himself so I'm keen to get over then they can have a see what he's been doing. Yeah. My daughter did do art at school. And I hope that she sort of gets back to that as she gets older maybe Yeah, but yet at the moment, no, no, yeah, my youngest sporting so completely different. The kids are also different Your collection that was called sentimental. Yeah, I was just really taken by that. Yeah, the in particular was to that I really was drawn to soft kisses. And then it was what was it just called T? Is that right? Yes, that's right. Yeah. They were actually. They're actually about my husband. Yeah, I think during lockdown last year, I was in Victoria. And, you know, we've been through quite a bit of lockdown. And last year, we were all at home a lot. And we were trying to sort of survive, we're having our own little sort of stations where we could kind of go off to, to keep everyone on saying. And he always has actually, for a very long time, as always made me a cup of tea. And I just just was really appreciating it. You know, you take these things for granted, but I did really, I just thought, you know what, I'm really lucky to have someone that does that. And just those little morning kisses. So I think I was just in that zone of feeling quite sentimental about that. Yeah, so they came out in those paintings. Yeah. So was the whole was the rest of the collection. Yeah, it was there any about your children in there? Yeah, absolutely. So my son, Solomon, he was going, we were having a pretty hard time with him just at that particular age 14 is not fun for boys, or girls. Not all of them. He was really, he's my feisty one. He was pushing pushing buttons. And I was just like, Oh, my baby's going. And I'm finding it really hard. And so I had two paintings, which was almost called Let me go. And that was him. Basically saying to me, let me go. And the other one, which I've completely forgotten what it was called now, Archie's there's another one or two very similar. And they were both about him about pushing buttons and the push and pull. Oh, that was cool. Push and Pull. And yeah, that push and pull of wanting to him pushing us away, pulling, you know, all that sort of thing and kind of find that balance of teenagers and yeah, letting them grow into their own person. But yeah, it can be hard letting letting go too. So yeah, that was definitely about that. Yeah. I really, really enjoyed them, though. Just see. Yeah. And that's the thing like your style. Abstract. What was it? What was it? Yeah, expression is, um, I guess. I'm not an art person at all my backgrounds music, so I don't Yeah, things but it's amazing that you can, you can express how you feel, just through the strokes. Like it's not an actual depiction, you know what I mean? I just found that really amazing. I was really wrapped how they resonated with people, and even my sister who's in South Australia. And I hadn't told her anything sort of about the series was about and she's, she's in the she's got the little ones at the moment. She's got like a four year old two year old. And she's one of the pictures came up on Instagram. And she said, I just really love that it reminds me of something to do with motherhood, she said, and I said, Oh, that's amazing, because it's exactly what it's about. So that was really? Yeah, that really? Yeah, felt really great about that, that someone else could see that. Yeah, that is Oh, isn't it? Oh, it was really cool. I was talking to an artist over the weekend recording. And her style was very nice now, but it's basically like, oh, hang on, I've got to find it, or find money. Because I just didn't I just find it incredible that all the different styles that you can do, it's just me, she surrealism and symbolism. So incredible, like, you can basically look at it. And like decipher, it's a story, you know what I mean? Like, there's just, it's, it's incredible. And then oh, like for because I didn't really do art at school because I had this idea in my head that art had to be. I guess what I realized now is fine art. I suppose that's what I thought that had to fit in. So I thought, well, I can't do that. So I'm not going to do it, you know? And it's now it's like, all these different things you can do. It's just amazing. I love it. Yeah. We're often told that at school, you know, like if you can't You know, draw correctly or that sort of thing. Like, I'm not the greatest of drawers at all, you know, but I just love what I do. And, you know, don't have a big background and all that sort of real fine art sort of thing. But um, but I think that doesn't matter. Like you just go for it. If you feel passionate about it, that's the main thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's amazing the things that I'm learning doing. You were saying about how the works, you sent a manual series that are some that were inspired by Solomon. Does he know you that like, and how does he feel? He that he knew that actually, afterwards, when I showed them, show them to him. And he's the most he's really not sentimental. It's very Yeah, he's my least empathetic kind of one. And he's just kind of like, Oh, really? Oh, okay. And that's probably very, yeah, maybe later, he might sort of that might just touch him. And I know, he was sort of touch but he's not want to be gushy. And yeah. He was just like, Oh, Mom. Yeah, so yeah. Not not the biggest sort of reactions on AI, but that's the thing. I've got a 13 year old. So we're sort of into that territory. And, yeah, yeah, it's just the poor kids. It's like the hormones ago now. Adjusting because here in South Australia, next year is different. But this year was the last year that year eight was the first year of high school. Next year, they're going to take them for me seven. So he's just started high school this year, and just the whole transition of that entire different world and how you move school, and it's like, it's not such a big jump. And I think that's why I'm being so nervous about him going into high school, just because I just know how much change there is. And just how much they're exposed to. You've tried to sort of keep them a little bit sort of contained. And yeah, that's it. Yeah. All of a sudden, there's just this whole world to just, you know, get them through it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's sort of it's funny, like, when, when I had them as babies, it's like you, you think this is going to be the hardest part. But then when they grow up? And I remember people saying that to me, you know, just make the most of it. And, you know, because it goes so fast. And then there's a teenage years, and I'm just thinking, oh, yeah, but I, you know, I do can't wait until they can do this and can't wait until they can do that. And then now I'm the person saying, Make the most of it goes really fast. I mean, yeah, yeah. And I wish I you know, like everyone, you do wish that you sort of could go back and sort of just really slow down. Yeah, and because, especially with my older two, I was young, I was young, I had all the energy, but I didn't have the patience as much. And then with Solomon, there was an eight year gap between the middle one and him. And I was quite, I was a lot more relaxed with him and a lot more patient, but he just wanted to grow up. And, you know, I was trying to keep him back. Like he started walking at nine months. I'm like, no, no, no, I was ready to go, ready to go. And of course, having the older siblings, he was just wanting to always be ahead. And I was, you know, so there. can't do much about that. But yeah, I did try to be a lot more relaxed and appreciating it. Definitely, especially those early months of newborn and I just tried to go really slow and enjoy it so you touched on briefly, we sort of talked about the identity shift and how you used your art to sort of work through that and I guess you've you've used it in other times, like you're talking about you your series that you've done, the new the push and the pull and letting go has it been really sort of integral to you to work through it in that way like that's been your outlet and your I don't want to say coping mechanism but you know, part of the tools that you've used to help you through different I think so and also I might own mother as well. And my own parents, I think dealing. My actually my, my new series I'm working on is sort of more about childhood as well. But you know, it's my children, I guess reminding me about things that happened to me in some way. Yeah, so I had a little bit of a, an up and down childhood, you know, parents divorcing early and to and fro and all that sort of thing. And yeah, I think it is, it is definitely a coping mechanism, I think is, again, cliche. People go, oh, when you get older, you really, when you think all the things from the past that you've pushed aside, just come out, like, whatever. I really do, and it sucks. Yeah. And I think is, as your kids get older or dear, it just reminds you of things. And maybe it's a way of holding on to them, as well. I'm not sure it's a bit confusing, really. But yeah, at the moment, it is sort of, I guess, just remembering how things were, and as a child, but also maybe appreciating how much how much what my parents would have gone through as well. So just relating it all back to that as well. So yeah, that's really interesting. Is it time you sort of you give your parents a bit of a bad rap, don't you? Sort of Yeah. And then when you experience it yourself, you sort of get ah, I can, okay. Like I had, like my stepmother. She was only in her mid 20s. And all of a sudden, she just had a one year old. And then she had three older kids like my dad. Yeah. And, you know, she just kind of the best way she could, she was quite firm, and strict, and, but that's probably the only way she could have could have done it. But I also learned so much from her. She's really industrious, and she's creative as well. We'll craft broidery, things like that. So always surrounded by she had a huge influence Actually, me on my life. This is a really industrious woman. My mother, my mother has bipolar. So she just growing up with that around to she didn't really ever get to do never worked. Because she was always really struggling. So I never had that sort of other influences. Um, woman that was working and doing things and juggling children all the time. Yeah. Huge impact on me. So yeah, so she really did. I don't think that was the question you asked. Oh, I can't really we just go off in our directions. So very, Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Other words, the was a big influence also on me. Just she was always another she was in. She didn't work. When she was younger, she did. She was a nurse and all sorts of things. But she was always creative, too. She She painted. So played the piano, cooking that certain too. So yeah, always that sort of always influenced on me as well. I wonder if women in that era would have felt the same sort of guilt that we feel now? Like, yeah, been a thing for them at all. Or it was just my grandmother's that era? Yeah. Yeah, I don't think so. I think because it was just the norm. You know, the mother stayed home. And that's just the norm. Yeah. Back then. Maybe they actually maybe it was the reverse. Maybe it was almost like if they were working. They felt the guilt of going to work. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Honestly, it's something that it's just a whole huge big thing. Like the guilt. It's just and I feel like, I don't know. I mean, everyone experiences it differently, or experiences or doesn't experience it, you know, and that's, it's so interesting. Like, no, I would I agree, man. The guilt I'm such an overthinking anyway, that I constantly analyzing everything. And motherhood and how you bring up your children. Am I doing it right the right way? And my Should I've done this and I try not to look back too much. Because really, you've got no control over that. But you just, you got to just try and do the best that you can in with what you've got, basically. But yeah, the mother guilt of putting yourself you know, ahead of you children sometimes. I've definitely learned over time not to have that quite so much. I think as the kids were younger I did. But especially that like when my youngest son in high school, I was like, No, you know what, I'm, I'm okay, I deserve to have some allocated time. And to actually let the whole family know, right, well, this is actually something that's really important to me, and I'm going to make this happen. And it was actually really nice to see the support that they gave me too. Right? Yeah, no, really, even my, my middle boyfriend, he would say he was actually said to me, I'm, I mean, really inspiring me with the work that you're doing. And, you know, that's the biggest compliment ever. And my husband's really supportive as well just, you know, constantly telling me that he's proud of me, which is really lovely. That definitely helps with not feeling guilty. Compliments. Yeah. But um, you know, especially like, I work as well. So you are juggling quite a few things. My studio is now home, which during lockdown that happened, which was really good, because I did that guilted me leaving the house. Because sometimes my son would call up my youngest and go, Oh, Mom, where are you? Have you got any food for this? And this and I'll have, can you can you give me this to eat? And you know, just you know, it was always about food? Um, yeah, so I'm at home now, which is lovely, because he can just come in coming in. And while I'm here, I can have a chip, especially during lockdown when we're all at home again. That was really important. I felt quite good doing that. Yeah, yes. That works. That's been working really? Well. Yeah, that's great. It's interesting. You say like, when you communicated that, this is what you're gonna do? It was like everyone went, Oh, good. Okay. You know, everyone's really clear on what's happening. Like you said, they can support you. I think there's a lot to be said for that, like actually articulating what you need. This is, this is what I'm going to be doing. Yeah, cuz I don't know that we do that enough. Probably years ago, I could have done it. Yeah. And I probably would have been still fine. But maybe it's just my, as a mom thinking, I shouldn't look and allow myself to or they should just know what's going on in my mind. Like, hello. What really, you know, see, I'm trying to do all these things. Doesn't Yeah. Doesn't make sense to you that that's what I want to keep doing instead of actually, like you said, articulating it and actually saying it out loud. So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a real a real woman thing. I think, I don't think anyone would ever be afraid to just come in and say, right, this is what I'm doing. Okay. I think we're concerned about other people, because we're, you know, we're looking at for the ones in our care, are they going to be okay, you know, maybe worried about offending people or, you know, our own feelings of guilt. I shouldn't be doing this, you know, just like, just take the bull by the horns and go, right, this one I'm gonna do just set it out. Exactly. Exactly. So you know, no, that's absolutely the way to go. I think. Yeah, the needs to be flexible, you know? And be available, like, especially with a teenager. Yeah, just just being available. Not even that even like my 25 year old daughter was having a moment the other day, and she just said, you know, drop things and be ready to have a chat and that sort of thing, too. So, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, you're always gonna be sort of juggling that role. You you might be doing your art or your whatever your interest. Is this at a moment's notice. quickly swap perhaps over and off you go in Monroe. It is yeah, it is. And that can be quite exhausting. It's exhausting doing that, you know, like you do. Yeah, I think you have to allow yourself rest. I think that's an important part of even the art practice. I've sort of learned that in the last year really only the last year of saying, Okay, I'm not going to feel guilty about even just resting and just thinking about At my art or just take taking some time away from it even just to refresh, refresh your brain. Yeah, that's, that's really true, isn't it? Because it would be like in any sort of creative pursuit? You're not. You're not always, you know, in that space all the time that you just, you know, it goes in, in waves, I suppose. And to recognize that and go, Okay. I'm just gonna step away for a bit. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's necessary. Yeah, for sure. So you were talking about the series that you're working on at the moment? Is that what I can see behind you? Is that the little? Yeah. Yeah. So they're all on, like, recycled upcycle bits of timber. Yeah. And this is paper. So I've done some acrylic on paper. And then I've actually added collage, and I've got all these are crayons, actually, and pasta pens. So it's all about I sort of had this. I kept thinking about all these images of sort of old buildings and the feeling of the heat in the Adelaide Hills, because that's where I grew up. We lived on a property and my my stepmother was growing lavender and all sorts of things. And we had cows and we were always sort of out and about. We made mud bricks. So lots of lots of things that you were always using your hands. So the house was all hand built. I didn't do a great deal, because I was pretty lazy. And I hated the heat. So we're always doing this stuff. And I was always really hot and but they just kept doing it. And I really, you know, looking back I saw appreciate even being whatever I was involved in, but I do know that I was constantly come on Elisa sitting around and I was just like, Oh, but I even though at the time, I didn't appreciate it. I look back now and just think, Wow, that was such a fantastic experience. I know it was a lot of hard work, having property and all the things that they did. But it's really influenced me. We had just just sheds and anything like that I've just been really attracted to we would go on family holidays, and we'd stay and we'd go to the country and stay in old like I remember saying this massive old house and Bera you know, but my fascination was the actual building. And so I've just sort of been working through what all that means. And I think it is the stability of those structures and the longevity of them. Things that are built with your hands and how you know how meaningful that is. It lasts a lifetime. And I think I had a lot of sort of up and down in my childhood. So there was a bit of to and fro with my mother back and forth with my dad and I actually lived my grandparents for a year when I was about nine. So I think all these things around me that I absorbed is, is which is what made me feel grounded. And it's just come back up again. And so that's sort of what I'm working on at the moment is just how that's all influenced me, like all the structures and even the summer heat and the gun trees. And yeah, all these memories. I've just been looking through old photographs and just working through that. So yeah, yeah. So even though I, as a child, I feel a bit unsettled. They're the things I've gravitated to. So yeah, I want to try. I want to try and make sure it's a positive way of remembering things even though there was other things going on in the background that might have been negative or hard. As a child. I'm just trying to find those little strengths of positivity. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes perfect sense. When you were just talking about that. It reminded me I'm not sure if you're into or heard of the chakras, like the chakras of the Oh my son's really into that my my finger He's just a hippie. He loves all that stuff. Yeah, he's telling he's been telling me a bit about that. So yeah, yeah, cuz when you were saying about that you needed to feel grounded. The things that you're talking about doing things with your hands, and like, the earth, and heat are all related to the base chakra, which is basically the one that keeps you grounded. That solid and all this other stuff might be going on. Yeah, and it's this, this core, this, it's basically your, it's in your, like, right down in your tailbone. So it's like, if you're seated, it's the part of your body. That's, that's touching the earth. And it just seemed to I just made that connection, as you were saying. Fascinating. Yeah. That's amazing. I have to look into that a bit more, actually. Yeah, I think it's that going into your own little bubble. Maybe that's even why I loved it as a kid, you sort of looking at everything else. And you're in your own little world. I mean, I used to even if my bedroom was my sanctuary, you know, as sort of that 12 1314. And I'd be constantly like, I painted and I'd be like, setting it all up in different ways all the time. And at one point, we lived in this little house, and I had to share a bedroom with my sister. And we're quite different bit of an age gap. And anyway, I was desperate for my own space. And we had this little hallway, like a little entryway that we never used, we would always go the back door. So I decided that I was going to set myself up in this entryway. Yes, I was so desperate for my own space. And literally, I could fit a chest of drawers. I had a hook for my school uniform, and I had a bed I posted around and that's where I slept. I don't even know how long I slept there for I think eventually they got a caravan and I slipped in the caravan. I asked permission I think I just did it. I was just so yeah, so definitely having my own space and I'd sit in there and I do whatever, you know, beading even you know necklaces and all I think I was into that at that time and yeah, so definitely, yeah, yeah, going into your own space Yeah. I remember helping my dad, Bertha lamb, you know, things like that we, you know, had animals and yeah, now I'd be like freaked out by that. But I'm really thankful for those experiences, because some are in my own kids haven't experienced things like that. So we're pretty, pretty lucky. Really? Yeah. Let's see, it's all about perspective. Yeah, yeah, just the way that you look at things. You could you could say it as negatives, but you've chosen to look at them as positives. That's yeah. And I think it is all coming out like because my kids are older. And what my youngest is. Yeah, just getting to that towards that end of high school heading towards their family a few more years left. So yeah, makes you just reassess things and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that's it isn't it? It's like the these these particular moments that adopted throughout your life we have take stock and you know, recess and yeah. Do you think you stay at keeping your studio in your home? Or I actually think I just be really nice, like, even have an evening I can just go in there whereas I wasn't taking advantage of going have an evening where I was. And I'm quite a homey person. So I do really enjoy that. Yeah, so I think it'll just make me let me use the time a bit more wisely. In your face. So you know, if you've got it, all of a sudden, you just want to come in and quickly do something you can and then got blown working on cooking. I can go in and do something. And that's, that's perfect. That's how I've always done it. I don't even know what else you know, like that is how I've always done it. It's always in between life. Yeah. Yeah. The project that you're working on at the moment, is that do you have like a end goal? You're going to exhibition? Next year? Yeah. Is it gonna be going? This one might be I haven't got anything go. It's just a little series that I just thought I'd launch all together. Okay, I just have to find a graphic. Basically, it's finished. So just that next step, and then putting it on website. And that's, that's the part it's boring. But yeah, it is. And it's called memories are made. So it's basically they're made in your mind, but they're also made with your hands. Yeah. So hopefully, yeah, in the next week, maybe I can get my act together. Though, there'll be up so yeah. And it's something I haven't done before. I've got lots of little pieces on blocks of wood. And yeah, so we'll just see, I've really enjoyed doing it. So we'll see how it all goes. I'm thinking you're probably having an open studio in a couple of weeks. So that probably pushed to finish it off. And yeah, always good to have a bit of a goal. But yeah, look next to you. Maybe I might probably like to apply to a couple of different galleries and just see, see what happens there. But yeah, I try not to think too far ahead. Otherwise, I get a bit overwhelmed. And that stops the stops the making. Yeah, so that's the plan so far. Sounds good. Yeah, I responded quite well, to the materials, I guess, too. But this will just happen because we had some all these off cuts of timber and things and our families upcycle timber, and I was like, Oh, that will really look cool with this and just just having a go. Yeah, yeah. Other ideas I've been making. I made some paper mache bowls as well, a while ago, which I again, I'd like to sort of experiment with too. So too many ideas. There are the I love all these podcasts. And it's been fantastic. Listening to two other moms and how they all do it. And it's really, really good. So Oh, thank you for coming on. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much, Alison. Thanks so much for listening today. We'll be taking a well earned rest over the festive season and be back early in the new year. Have a great Christmas if you celebrate it, and we'll see you in 2022

Rosie Rutherford British clarinettist and freelance musician S2 Ep32 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Rosie Rutherford, a clarinettist, composer, freelance musician and educator from Darby in the British Midlands, and a mum of 3 children. Rosie grew up in a musical household with her father and sisters being quite musical, she started on the keyboard at 5, piano at 6 and clarinet at 8 - after there being no flutes available at her school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire , playing in the Folk ensemble, and later met her husband Jamie. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar and violinist Ning-ning Li called Threaded. They are at their core a folk band, but take their influences from all types of music. They’ve released 3 albums- of what we spoke (2016) Fair Winds & Following Seas (2017), When The Raven Comes Calling (2019) Threaded was commissioned to create the musical score for Red Earth Deaf Accessible Theatre performances in 2018 for Soon Child. going on a live theatre tour around the UK before covid hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with Red Earth Theatre, The Red Tree. which came out virtually in January 2022. They have also created 5 music videos incorporating Sign Song for the deaf community which you can watch here - https://www.threadedmusic.com/sign-song Rosie also runs Teenie Tempos, a parent and baby/toddler music group based in Derby. Red Earth Theatre https://redearththeatre.com/ Podcast - instagram / website Threaded's music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for tuning in. My guest today is Rosie Rutherford. Rosie plays the clarinet. She is a composer, a freelance musician and an educator from Darby in the British Midlands in the UK, and a mum of three children. Rosie grew up in a very musical household with her father and sisters all playing instruments, and she started on the keyboard at age five, piano age six and clarinet at age eight. After there were no flutes available at his school. Rosie studied at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire, playing in the folk ensemble, and she later met her husband Jamie, who also attended the same Conservatoire. She formed a trio with Jamie on guitar meaningly on the violin, and herself, called threaded. They are at their core a folk band but take the influences from all types of music. They have released three albums of what we spoke in 2016, fair winds and following seas in 2017. And when the Raven comes calling in 2019. testable theaters performance of soon child in 2018 and went on a live theater tour throughout the UK with the show before COVID hit. In the past months they have been involved with another show with radio theater called the red tree, which came out virtually in January 2022. They've also created five music videos incorporating sign songs for the deaf community, which you can find through the links in the show notes if you're interested in watching. Rosie also runs teeny tempos a parent and baby toddler Music Group based in Darby. I hope you enjoy our chat. It's a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for coming on. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. So it's nice to have have a good natter isn't it about all things moms? Absolutely. It's so enjoyable. Whereabouts are you? What's What town are you? Darby? Yeah, so in East Midlands Oh, very good. Yeah. So as you mentioned, it's very misty and, you know, a bit sort of Sunday morning ish there. What, what sort of what's the weather like, there is cold and you know, horrible winter, what's what's going on there is absolutely freezing. It was funny during over the year, it was actually fairly warm. I think it's one of the most warmest years on record. And I thought oh, this will be alright. I can cope with them. And then last week, it was just like really freezing and icy. Yeah, yeah, I'm not I don't mind the cold. I like cold if it's crisp. You know, if you've got the nice bright sunshine. Yeah, but it's just a misty and you drive in and you're like, or can't actually see anything two cars in front of me. And I think the problem with weather here is it's just it changes so fast. So you can't ever you know, cold is absolutely fine. And snow is fine and hot sun is fine. I think it just always takes your body a while to acclimatized to it. So if it just happens really fast. You just feel like a sore all the time. You just like going on. It's like it's catching up with what's going on. And then it changes again and then you've got today here it's been what 30 Probably got up to 32 Today your associates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so not Yeah. summer's day here. It's been beautiful like, oh, sorry, I shouldn't say. I could just pretend although I said the other day, I spoke to a lady who was in Canada and she had snow. And I was like, so jealous because I've never skied. I've looked at I've seen snow and I've touched it, but I've never actually been to the snow. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that'd be awesome. As my sleep comes the same playing field across my chest, and the softness All right, so tell me about your music. I've discovered you as a, of course. That white thing that you're playing, it looks like a storm true for wind Institute. It's like, can you tell us about what you play with the proper names of things? Not like the Stormtrooper instrument? Yeah, no. So I'm a I'm a clarinetist is my is my main thing. And so I play clarinet, bass clarinet. But I also play all the woodwinds as, as a protective music teacher and stuff like that. So the Stormtrooper instrument, which is a discord and electronic wind instrument, which for a project that I'm working on at the moment, has to try and get my fingers around it so we can use it to because it's, it uses MIDI, so it can import into the computer. So it's the same thing. Dreams is a saxophone. It's just like electronic saxophone, but, but it has like the same functions as a keyboard. So you can you can have all these different all these different sounds. So it's proper novelty. So just for like having when I get a minute to have a little go and find another different different core sounding things. I can I can play yeah, so it is cool, but it's really it's really crazy instruments really strange. I've been enjoying watching a little Instagram, little posts you put up when you're finding all the different settings and this one sounds like like you've been sucked through vortex or something. So cool. It is. And I thought because I got it literally at the start of December just landed on my mat. And I was like, right, so I'll try and be festive. We're trying to a different Christmas carol every single day on it, then um, it gives me a chance to like play every day, but it's very, I don't have to commit much time to because that's always the problem, isn't it? Like is you want to do something every day but actually finding the time to commit that and I was like a Christmas carol. I can probably do. I still didn't manage every day, but I managed most days. Think I've got through a lot of the core settings. Yeah. It's good fun. It's like yeah, into discovering what what all the buttons do. Yeah, that's it. So how did you get into music? Have you always been musical? Did you grew up in a musical household? Yeah, I think so. So my dad plays. He's a he's a blues man. So he's a guitarist and harmonica player. But actually, when I was a child, he didn't he plays a bit of guitar but he didn't kind of gig or anything like that. So I think we just we just always got into music. me I've got two sisters. And we're always quite musical. And yeah, so I think I started playing the I think I started on the keyboard when I was about five and then did piano at six and then I picked up the clarinet when I was eight. Yeah, right. Do you remember why you went to the clarinet? Was there a sort of something that drew you to this is one of those questions that is like so so I want to play the flute but they didn't have any in school. So I want clarinet sure did around No. Oh, my second choice. Now I'm so glad I'm actually so glad because the character is like I just thought Do you love it? And it's so me. So it was meant to be there was meant to be no flutes left that was always meant to happen. Yeah. Have you ever gone back and tried to play the flute? Has that ever been something you've tried? Yeah, so what do I do now? Yeah, not not like not that well, but um, is it you know, but I can play it well enough to double on it and then I can teach it I can teach it so. Yeah, so I do play it and it is really nice as well but it isn't the current app. So it's alright. It's funny how things work out isn't it? How many other instruments do you play? Mainly so clarinet and bass clarinet kind of my main things and then I play a bit flute player play sax, and I've tried to get into the whistle so absolutely love Yeah, I love the Irish we're so big fake lover. So during the lockdown I was trying to get a little bit better at that. And but it's like everything once you start delving in a little bit, it's just becomes it's just a minefield and there's and then you want to be able to do everything and amazingly you don't you and you're like well if I'm gonna say that I'm doing this then I have to be able to do this. But it's just a complete like it's just a whole life time of musical knowledge to fit into learning a new thing so it's Work in Progress see your glances involving a Tree Yard quote. Fred is telling you say threaded is it's, I guess it's like my little baby in terms of musical stuff. So it's me my husband Jamie on guitar and then our friend lighning who plays violin. And we got together. We all studied at Birmingham, Conservatoire, Royal Birmingham Conservatoire as it is now. So and they're all and we all did classical music degrees, performance degrees on our instruments. And we played in a big, massive folk group, they're called Joe Biden's conservative folk ensemble, which is amazing. It's, I mean, it differs in numbers, but it's around 60 people. And you know, and we do the festival circuit and everything. And it's just all like, it's amazing. You should absolutely check out check out Conservatorio contemplate screen, it's still going. And every because it's a it's used. The people that are in Conservatoire, and then the personnel changes kind of, sometimes yearly, sometimes every four years, but it's, it's grown over the past 20 odd years. It's brilliant. And we and we played there and that kind of spot, I've always referred music, because like, like I said, my dad's been a blues man. And he and my mom have always been into music. So always growing up growing up around it. But funnily, in a clarinetist, I kind of thought I can't play folk music as a kid, you know, because it's such a classical. Well, I think it's either a classical or jazz journey that you take with an instrument like the clarinet because you think, Oh, the clarinet, so and because of the teachers and the era, they live and the I guess the pathways that are open to you to start studying, it was straight. Classical, is the path that I took. And so you kind of think, oh, you know, I can't really play folk music on the clarinet. It's not a folk instrument. So although I loved it, I didn't really do much on it until I got to college. And then because we had the folk ensemble, and I was like, Oh, this is great. Learn to do some tunes, and, and things. And then, and obviously, when you start then exposing yourself to this new world of all this free music, you kind of think, well, folk music actually. Like it's the music of the people. It's our music. This is what I love play. I love it. And so me and Jamie and Nunes because we love playing together anyway. We just thought we're going to create our own group and, and we're just going to play our own music. So the great thing about Fred it is that it's all devised. We generally one of us will bring a tune or a song and then we just get together. We turn it into a piece and and it's all original stuff. So it it's so it's really beautiful. Like it's beautiful for us because you know it takes that creative box because you just don't and you've got this outlet. And it's a safe place as well, because we're all, you know, we're all on the same page. So it's nice and easy. So, yeah, I feel really, really lucky to kind of have that place to just be creative with people that you can bounce off so easily. Yeah, so that's kind of where it came from. So we were like, we're not really focused. We don't really know what we are to be honest. Like, we're developing, I guess it's developing all the time, but kind of started with like, folk influence, but it's definitely like, we take influences and inspiration from everywhere and everything. So yeah, that's good. Yeah. And it must feel good to like, I've got two things I want to ask you, just from what you said, but the first thing is like to have, like you said, how it's a safe space. Like you can go there with your ideas and not feel like judged. You can play the thing you want to play and not feel like everyone's going, Oh, that's no good. You know, if you have that trust with each other, that you can play something and not feel scared or, you know, yeah, I don't know what the word is. I'm trying to intimidate. Yeah, that's what I'm going. Yeah, you feel really good to be able to share stuff and be honest with each other. And, yeah, that's it. And also, you know, that you know, that whatever you bring will, like we I don't know, it's like, because I think we do, I mean, obviously, I'm play. But recently, I've been doing a lot more composing and songwriting for various other things as well, not just threaded, but the great thing is that, whatever you see, whatever we seem to bring, we managed to make something work out. Even if it's completely different by the end of the session, then it is the start. But it's like that having everyone's kind of collective voices in there. Just always, we think, yeah, it just feels so easy. Because that it's such a positive experience. Always, you know, whatever you bring, and then you get to the end of it, you're like, oh, this, this has made this really great thing. Now that's, and you feel quite satisfied at the end. So yeah, I feel very lucky to have that place to be able to be creative. Absolutely, um, I've thought of something else to ask you. I'll come back to that. So do you guys do? Maybe COVID? You know, been annoying. But do you guys do a lot of live shows with the music? Or is it mainly recorded stuff that you chose? Um, well, pre pandemic? Yeah, so when we first started, and I guess for the first chunk of our time together, it's just kind of, we were just doing lots of like, mainly live stuff. So kind of small art centers festival type stuff, because I think that's where our musics best suited. And then in 2018, we got commissioned to work with this company called Red a theater. We do differ decibel performances. And so we wrote the score for a show with them and their show soon child, which was amazing. So that was kind of our first commission. So and then we did a live theater tour around the UK with them as onstage musicians and actors. Yeah. And then, and then it was pandemic hit. So when, but in between that we did three albums as well. So I think the first album was out in 2016, I want to say and then 27 teen and then 2019 was when we did the last album, which was the music from seeing child that we recorded. Yeah. Yeah. And then since then, since pandemic, obviously we've done a couple of live shows. But we because I mean me and Jamie are married so that's quite easy we can we can work and well I say it's easy next not easy with having we also have three children but that's another story that we can you know when we've got stuff we can create and write in evenings, but nothing slips in Birmingham. So it's not too far distance it's about four to five minutes but obviously we were all in lockdown as you guys were as well. I think we couldn't get together for quite a long time. So yeah, so we've done a lot we've tried to put a few things together last year just online just kind of over the Instagram to do some stuff but we haven't. So this year we're hoping that we're going to be able to do a lot more we did a reason we did we did something last year which we got some funding for which was turning so off the back of soon child like I said read out there to the Deaf accessible. They did deaf accessible theater so we and what we did with them with our songs is worked with science on directors and used a lot of science song in it so all of their shows is integrated in BSL to British Sign Language. So the actors are sign as well as talk so then when we did it when we put the songs in they are they were all signed in and off the back of that we kind of thought, you know, like, it gives an extra layer to our music, which we've never had before, like this visual element. And it's beautiful sign song is absolutely beautiful, because not only is it a language, and it's obviously a communication tool, but it's also just like this form of, it's just almost like dance with the performance when it's so beautiful. And so that that enhances the music so much, actually. And we kind of thought, Oh, well, we want to, once you've also kind of connected with the deaf community, we were like, We want to be doing this all the time, like the inclusion is just, it's just so important. So we've started trying to work and make find ways to make our music more accessible. So we've developed like, threaded, which is still going started the three of us, but we've kind of got a tangent as well called the threaded collective. And with that we're doing lots of different projects, working with other artists. So one of them is going to be the Deaf accessibility and music and how we can work and develop that and work with some deaf performance. It's not doing the sign song with us and things like that. So we're hopefully got a couple of festivals in the summer already. And we're going to work on developing that. So yeah, it's amazing. It's kind of all doing this. And you're just like, oh, I never expected that this would finish here. But that's where it's going. And we're just gonna go with it. Yeah, amazing. I've never heard of sign song before. Is that like, how did you said, signing? Two songs that don't have lyrics? Or like, how does it? Can you explain? Yeah, so I mean, I'm no expert. But it's mainly it's it's just Deaf, Deaf people, interpretation of the songs, so and how they sign it. So. And therefore, the beauty of it is that everyone's interpretation might be slightly different. So you can obviously some will do a literal translation. And but then sometimes, obviously, songs songs are really interesting, aren't they? Because obviously, a lot of songs are metaphors. And though you use metaphors within the songs, or the song is a metaphor for something else, or it's emotive, so when you're when we're working with them, with the science on performers, often it's talking about the context of it, what you mean by that line, and then they will interpret it, I guess, like any will, it's like any translation is if you translate in a book, but they'll work on it. So the signing that they do isn't necessarily like literal signing, it's all trying to create the metaphor. So it's so it's just this whole thing is just as beautiful performance, because it's just that everything working together. It's just amazing. That seems to be able to create music that can become a part of that. Do you know what I mean? Really, really? Absolutely. I'm gonna do some Googling when we get get off here, because that sounds amazing. Yeah, a whole new thing I've I've never known. Yeah. Yeah. Well, within theater, the accessible theater is becoming quite rightly, much bigger here. So there is a lot more access. And I think the UK really working on it. And but in music, sometimes, you know, there's been some performances, there's been some stuff that's on festivals and Glastonbury, they had a big, big thing, there was a signer with a wrap up, but still, it's not it that we've got so far. We need to go the long way to go. So yeah, it's we feel like quite strongly, it's important. And it's a way that that so many people could quite easily add this access level in a beautiful way. And then, you know, and it's just and it's just like, it's amazing to watch and it means you're including so many more people within your performance. So it's really good. Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. I love that wage, roll up your brain pole to get not far to go on what I was gonna ask before, what's it like working so closely with your husband? Basically. It's actually amazing. I think our relationship it came from being musical together I think. So. I think we're at we're often at our best as a couple when we are being creative together. I think we probably find that things are more strained when we're not getting the opportunity and it's just home after you know what I mean. So when because Because yeah, so much of it is so much of I guess why we love being together is being creative, and I definitely feel like much better music session with him. And I think because instrumentally dynamically because he's a guitarist. So any tune i i write or any kind of like songs he will be like. And then it kind of makes it like quite quickly being on that same wavelength. Whereas I didn't necessarily have the scale to be like, I know exactly how I'm going to accompany this. Jamie will be like, this sounds good. And I'm just like, yes, that is what I was aiming for. So yeah, it's actually really nice. But obviously, with having the family it has become a much bigger juggle for us to be able to work together. In terms of like childcare and other logistics, so at the moment, he's working. So the, the theatre company, Red Earth, which we did scene child with, me and Jamie, right, have worked on the music for their next show, which she is currently rehearsing called the red tree, which is a book by shot and it's beautiful picture book. And so we've written the music together, or like the main terms of music, some of it, he'll divide in the process. But originally, we were both kind of going to be on it in stage, but then I had my third little baby in August. So I haven't been able to do the tour. And that's going to be live streamed at the end of the month. So I feel like, I feel like a solo parent. Because normally you work with you're going around each other and it's like I'll do this day he does this day or this evening, and, you know, work around it. Whereas because it's every day, it's Monday to Saturday for the whole month. I'm just like, Yes, I actually have all the admiration for single parents, because I did about three days. And I was like, oh, people do that. The school run. I mean, like, I feel like the school run is harder than having a third child. Like having to be in the same place twice a day and get everyone ready to get out of the house on time. Yeah, that is just that is the kettle of fish do. I was like something. Show me what you've got something. What I can do. So you have three children. How old are your older children? So my daughter Ruby is four. My son is three. And then the little baby Louie is four months old. I love that name. Louisans says Did you meet your husband at like in a music capacity? Do you only ever known each other through music? Yeah, yeah. So we we studied at the same same Conservatoire. But we didn't know each other while we were studying. Because he was here above me. And Qataris Tantek. They kept themselves to themselves classical guitarists that come in for their things. Whereas obviously, the clarinetists you'd be in the orchestra in the band. So I was in a lot more. So I never, I didn't really know him. It wasn't until after we'd finished that through friends and stuff. We met each other. So yeah, so it's weird because we went to the same place, but we have completely different, you know, but before being together, we just have completely different experiences of being there. Which is a bit strange, but you know, it's funny, isn't it? Do you remember seeing him there? Like, did you ever seen you see each other there to remember? I don't really remember. I think I think I did go to one of his projects is major project, but um, but I didn't really know him. Just because we're friends with the painful. Yeah. And then. So it was mainly after we'd finish that we got to know each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So every since you got together, we've always played music together, or did it take a bit of time to sort of warm up to the fact that you were going to share this? It was like, instant sort of? Yeah, yeah. It was pretty instant. Pretty instant. So. So yeah, that's always been really nice. It's always been something that we've done, and we've been able to able to do together. And then it's, you know, and and then being able to kind of get together and stuff. It's really nice, because it's almost like date night. Date Night is just going and doing a gig. So it's like working day, but but it is nice. It's like a nice experience. So I feel like we get to share with each other. She's really good. Absolutely. That's lovely. So you talked briefly about how it's a bit tricky with now that you've got the kids with childcare, how to how do you manage if you've got some good support around you? For the kids? Yeah, I'm really lucky so my mum and dad live fairly Place and my sister and Jamie's parents are retired. So they've that when we did the when we did the tour they kind of came down and stayed for a chunk. So we were able to do it. So yeah, I mean we can only we've only been able to facilitate the word being able to tour and stuff because we've got like family and friends support so we are really really lucky. Yeah, it makes all the difference doesn't it really does. Like when you said before about people that do it on their own soul parents I've Yeah, I just don't understand how they do it. I go out of my brain if I was the only one doing this never made that absolutely amazing Absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will see you. When you I'm interested to ask you this because I'm a singer. That's my background. When you were pregnant with the with each child, did you find it really hard to breathe while you were playing your instrument? Yeah, I think, well, I had I had different pregnancy experiences. So and which affected which affected my play in and I think some of them are more mentally than others. But with with Ruby, my first one I had a really big bleed at 13 weeks. And they never knew why. Yeah. So they were kind of like, you know, take it easy. And I got like tours booked. And in the end, I just had to I couldn't I didn't pay because I was because you know like you have this degree. And it's all tummy muscles isn't it and I was scared to use them because it was like, because they don't know why I've had this. And then so I didn't really play for the first kind of six months. And then I've got some stuff in and I think probably felt a little bit more confident to kind of hit but I still never supported properly, often just playing from here because I was going to use my dummy. And then. And then with Arlo, I think I think I did have some bleeding again. But I think it was really early on. And then I was kind of fine for playing and stuff. So I did quite a lot of work with him. And he that was that felt like generally a much easier pregnancy. But he was got pregnant after nine months after having reap. So I think I was just such in such a sleep deprived state from her because she just didn't sleep until she was about four that I just probably didn't didn't think about I was just in autopilot. So I think I just kind of work through a bit more. And then with live, it's really similar. I had a had a really big bleed at 11 weeks, or just performance, we scan. Really, really it was on the birthday, actually, I'd had a burger were locked down. But we'd ordered this burger I was really excited. And then it started bleeding. And then I had to go to AD. But I knew that was a similar thing to read, like had that gut feeling like that he that it was fine. So I was like I knew it was but it's obviously still terrifying. And then after that, I was a bit like oh, I've been scared. I was scared to play again because I just don't want to put any pressure on you don't want to rupture anything. So yeah, and I felt really tired for a lot of that pregnancy. So that's when I did a bit more whistle playing because it's just not the same type that you just don't have to put the same type of like support on and everything. But then then you don't know whether some of it's just because you know it's their time on your body's tired it's just like you're doing this again. You've got the other two that you're actually got to look after I did lockdown because this you know, you're trying to be so positive and you know, for the kids especially. And but there isn't that much to do either. So you you know you think you're tired because you just like the whole situation is just exhausting, isn't it? The pandemic itself is just so it's exhausting. Just so yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I always like to ask musicians that are that are in that area that can relate to I had a shocking first pregnancy it was fine. I don't know why but the second one, I don't know. He sat up right on my diaphragm. It was ridiculous. I couldn't breathe to save myself. And that was starting to use up here too much putting too much strain on my on my actual, you know, in my voice and I had to give up a few gigs was like I can't actually project anymore. This is you know, there's nothing I can and the problem is you you feel really bad because you did you know Like, you don't want to cancel stuff anyway, because you know, you pregnant you're absolutely candid, but you don't know until the time d that actually this this isn't and it can change so quickly. Yeah, I was kind of Alright, doing this. And then I got to about seven months, and I was like, I literally have no space that I can do. So yeah, yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Good on him? Day to day with the kids now, do you basically set time of an evening just to work on your music with your husband? Yeah, generally, generally. I mean, when when we've had commissions, like when we were working on the theater stuff, we did block out days to do it. And, and the same when we were working on the collective stuff last year, we would we blocked out days to do it. But when we've been in lockdown, obviously, we haven't been able to use the chat we had, we couldn't use the childcare at some point of it. So then it would have to be evenings. So in the summer, it's alright, because you still feel like you have like evening time, but in the winter, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you don't end up getting very much done. The kids are in bed, and it's like half past eight, nine o'clock. And then you're like, right, we've got to have dinner. And then we've got to try. And we've got to try and create. So I think I think it depends on what we're creating for as well. Like if it's commission stuff. Because there's a brief and it's kind of got to get done, you can be a bit more pragmatic about it, it's like, well, you know, if we are doing the evenings, we'll commit three or four evenings to it. And we will get it done in that time, because that's the time. Whereas if it's our own stuff, like if it was just kind of like more. So if we take the threaded or stuff about rain, then you can be a little bit more like, well, we'll just get together in an evening and have a bit of a jam and see what happens. And that's a lot. I feel like that the winter months are never that good for that type of thing. For me, I think fat. And I don't know whether it is just because I'm so brain dead by the time it gets to the I can't I can't think and also a lot of a lot of creating on my instrument. It's just playing. So it's a lot of improvising and seeing what comes out of improvising. And the current house isn't that big. So you can't really do that. When the kids are in bed loudly. And in the winter. In the summer. We've got we've got a conservator on the back so you can kind of go in there. And it's warm. But in the winter, it's actually freezing because the Conservatives the court really typically delivery very much just ended up not doing a lot which was probably the attic. But I think if you're trying to be creative, if it's your job and you've got to write stuff on top, then it's like any job isn't it? You've got to get it done. So you will find find the time and the space. But I think if it's for me, I have to be in the right frame of mind to do it. And yeah, and in the right space for it to for it to be enjoyable. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and that's the thing, like if you're forcing it, it's you're not you're creative. tivity is not going to come you could because you're just like, Oh, I've got to do it and nothing's going to come when you put pressure on yourself like that. Like, like you said, you need the time to just fiddle about and see what comes out on. Yeah, absolutely. Oh. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I think that I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. And I think even if, from people I spoke to and friends and everything, and I think and I think it's like anything, I think it's, I think it just stems because you care, and you want to make the right choices. And I think for your children, and I think as mums. I don't know you kind of there's this thing, isn't there anything that you do for yourself? It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And that isn't, but it isn't. But I think we'd have to go through that process, don't we? And it seems, seems that lots of people have to, you know, go kind of through this process and find, find out how you're going to work and what you need to do. And what you would class is something that makes you feel bad, and something that makes you not feel bad. So I think it's different for everybody. I know, I've definitely had it, I get it a lot. I think it's, but I know I shouldn't have it. Because a lot of it is like work. It's because I've because, you know, if you're gonna go and do something for work, then you feel bad, because you're like other kids are being having to go so this person isn't going to this person, but then you need to earn a living. So yeah, then you can't have the quality of life that they're gonna have if if you don't earn any money. So yeah, I think it's really it's really interesting. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself, I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this, I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house has missed and I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair and everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Because actually, it's my choice. But it's taken, you know, it's taken a long time for me to kind of get to that point of that I will do that. I still haven't been out the house for a run yet. anyone to do anything because it because you know, it's like, well, if I've got if I have got half an hour for me, then what am I going to do with it? If I was to have if I was to probably have longer than that and start feeling a bit like, oh, I probably should be doing this and probably shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, and you know, I'm taking on gigs and things and I When Ruby was little we did a lot more gigging because it was the, you know, the other side of the pandemic. So things were actually booked in. And I didn't feel bad about that, because I didn't everything was booked beforehand. And I didn't know and I think I just struggled leaving. But I think when there are as I don't know, I think you know, like, once you've gone through it, you know, they're going to be fine as well. You know, when that it's always worth thinking of what, what's it gonna be like? Whereas, you know, it is always okay. So yeah, yeah, with that benefit of experience, then you know, that your your next two children, it's actually going to be fine. We'll be fine. Yeah. But it is hard. Because, you know, I think everyone feels guilty to some degree. I think people just have different. Some people and people feel different, like guilty about different things, don't they? And for some people, their guilt might stem from work related. So for some people, it might stem from like socializing, they feel like they shouldn't go out and have a drink because or see their friends. Because you know that because the children have their bedtime routine. And, and yeah, I think everyone will have something that they struggle with in terms of mum Gill. But, yeah, yes, finding the balance. I think that's so true. Because I think it's yeah, the balance of like, I think you still need to do something for yourself. Like, you can't just be a mum all the time, you actually still have to be yourself and especially, you know, with your husband, you still have to have that relationship. And it's a funny thing, like when you have kids, it's like, I don't know, this is expectation that your whole world has to completely stop and revolve around the kids which is fair enough for for a period of time like it has to because they're so little and they can't do anything but I think it's a no from what I'm finding talking to different mums through this. It's like well, there's a point when you actually go hang on a sec. I'm still me and I actually want to go do stuff that I did before. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important for for your children to See you? And I think them's. I mean, we notice it loads with Ruby because she, with, with coming from a very musical household, she's now like, she's so into it. And we haven't, you know, for a while, like, would you want to do this? And she'd be like, No, I don't want you to show me how to do that. I do it my way, when we can have gotten your clarinet, and I'd be like, because kids want me to, I don't want you to show me I just want to do it, which is like, you know, fair enough. But now she's gonna, which is making a pro songs, and she's doing all this stuff. And she's only four. But, but I think, for me, I want her to see me go, you know, especially for as a as a woman that I can, I can still be an artist, and I can be a performing musician, and I can do this, and I can still have a family, and be a present mom, but be still be creative. And be me because, you know, that's, you want, I don't know, like, that's, I feel, I feel proud, I guess that I'm managing to juggle these plates, because I always wanted to be be a musician. And, you know, and it's tough. There's lots of tough elements about it. And, you know, a lot of people feel that they can't balance a family and be a musician, because, because it, you know, you end up having to turn down so much work because of various things. And I think, you know, if they can still see if your kids can still see you being you that's, that's really good for them to know that or they could, you know, they can still have the life that they want to do. And, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really nice and also have an understanding that time is that their time is or that your time is split, but over things that are important, you know, and especially our, whatever your artistic discipline, that's something that you've worked at, usually your whole life, or, you know, from an age of being able to do it, you know, with dance or art or whatever, and you've committed so many hours that just because, you know, you decide to take on the responsibility in whatever capacity of being a parent, you don't stop. That doesn't stop, because that's part of who you are. And so I think it's important is for your children to see that that time still happens in time still exists, like I still have to practice because otherwise, if I get a call to go and do a gig, I can't if my lips not in I'm not going to be able to do it. So, but it's not at the expense of time with them. Yeah, it's, it's just part of our daily life and routine. And so yeah, I do think that that's important. But I'm only kind of starting to, like, put that time and now you know, it's taken me a while of not feeling bad for doing practice, even though I believe that I shouldn't feel bad for doing it. And I have to do it. It's still, you know, it's still actually doing it. But yeah, it is good. Yeah, I love that. I love the way you describe that. Because that's like, that's how I feel. It's like, I think it's wonderful. Especially, I mean, I don't have any girls, but for my boys to see, you know, the woman who if they end up with a woman that they, you know, that becomes a mother should their children, but she still does all the things that she did before she had kids, you know, it's just in your slotted into your life, like you said, you you're practicing your you know, it's part of what you do, and your children see you do that, which is just, I love that it is so wonderful. Yeah, I love it. And I think you know, like, for, for our kids as well, we're definitely noticing that they, they all seem to love. Like either whether it's performing or I think kids kids respond to what they're exposed to, don't they so but as they're always making up songs now, even though their three year old, he's really started to get into the dispersing in and they'll be they'll be doing that payment, these payments, dinosaurs and he's making up songs. And you think that's just because it's exposure, and I'm sure it's like, you know, all children or children are sponges, aren't they. So whatever you do in your house, your children will pick it up. And whatever. So I think that's the thing, whatever it is that you love, and you want for any mom, even if they're not, if it's not art, if it's you know, yoga or, or climbing, or whatever it is that you want to do is kind of your hobby, if the kids can see it, that they absorb it. It's something that that often it can be something you end up doing together because they think oh, my mom is this, I'm interested in it. mom or dad's doing this. And that's what we've kind of found with ours, whatever it is, we're kind of doing that they want to do. And then you end up still being able to do the thing that you love and you do it with them. I my husband really loves drawing. And he's always drawn and he's you know, he's really good at drawing but it's just something that he does for himself and he really enjoys it and so the kids are annual sit and draw with the kids. And so their art is amazing. Well, me I know I'm so it's my kids, but I think that there is really, it's really brilliant. But I'm just like since they've been able to hold a pen you sat there and drawn with them. And so that's something that they are really like to do. I mean so then when I I see it and if we, you know, draw it or whatever, and I'll draw, they're just like, Oh, what's that meant to be mommy? Daddy's is better, just like, I'm trying. No, but they do they just pick it up so much that I think it is important, therefore, for them to see you doing things that you enjoy. Yeah, it just becomes a part of life. It's like, it's not a sure thing. That it's like, Okay, now, we're now done going to do this, but it's just incorporated in your life. It's just what you do. Yeah, I love that. That's this beautiful, that's so good. How did you feel then this, I like this concept of identity about how we view ourselves as a woman, then we have children, you know, how do we see ourselves? Did you sort of have a concept of your own identity change when you became a mom, I don't know, you know, I don't know whether it really has. If I think about it, like, I still feel like I'm really easy. And I'm very lucky, because I've got the same friends, I haven't. And a lot of my friends from school, we all move back to the same place. So we all kind of went out to study, whatever we did at university, and then we've all kind of come back to the same place. So I've got a lot of the same friends, a few of them have also had children at the same time. And all my friends from studying at college, still fairly close with them. And I think I've still I've been very lucky that I've been able to be facilitated to still work. And so I kind of feel like I don't think I've changed. Does that make sense? It does. I don't feel any different. I think I just, I just Yeah, I think I don't feel any different. I have literally got more responsibilities, but I think I try and yeah, it's yeah, I'm not putting words in your mouth. But it's almost like, because you've got this musical practice, which is endemic to you, and you've got the relationship with your husband, who's also got the music, it's like, you're able just to bring the children into your world. And continue with that, what you had, and the children and sort of they have joined into your world, and you'll still be able to maintain who you are without any sort of like, oh, I have to give this up, or I have to do this. Now whatever. I think so. I think and I'm very lucky that I guess I'm surrounded by people that have supported that. And being with with me and my husband both being artists, you know, that has challenges, you know, it because it's not like often, often, for other friends who are artists, they're married to someone who has got a stable job. And not that not all artists are stable, but we're freelancers so it is up and down. So one of them, you know, so they can be they can kind of project work that they want, but they know if they're gonna if they're going to have a family or whatever, there's going to be a stable income coming in nine to five sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Whereas obviously, we both of us, we haven't got that. And we've always relied on because, you know, very lucky, we're very, very equal. We've always kind of both worked in both, both on whatever. So having a family for us and me being a moment. We've we've, we've kind of thought, well, we're going to do it and we'll make it work around this and Jamie chipped in just as much as me. So I don't know, I yeah, I've been able to just kind of carry on and also have things in place. For the work that I do that I will take the children if I need to. So I've been very lucky that I've been able to do it. My work that's kind of more artsadmin like I've gotten I've done, I've done like training and I've just had the baby in the sling. Because so because I'm breastfeeding and I'm gonna go to work and have to take the baby and that's just it. So and but I've been very lucky that people have been very accepting of that. Because if I was maybe in a business where that wasn't acceptable, you know, not all businesses, it isn't acceptable, you know, if you're a nurse or whatever, can't take your baby to work. So I do feel very lucky that I've been able, you know, the support network around me at work as well as home as men that I have been able to have children and still work as an artist, you know, and that so and I know not everybody does have that support. So I do feel very lucky. I think sometimes it's what it's wanting to do it though, isn't it like I think I am. I'm quite proud RTX I'm like, Well, I still want to do this, and I want to have children. So therefore I have to, I have to make it work. And so I have to put myself in positions, that I can do it. So yeah, a lot of it is setting things up that I've had to do myself. You know, a lot of my work and everything I've gone out to find and projects I do the funding applications for and everything which I have to do my own time, there's been a lot of midnight 1am is writing funding bids for you. But that means that when we've been lucky, and we've been successful, it's meant I've been able to do the work I want. And because I've been project manager, and they've been able to make things work. So yeah, it's it is. It is hard work to make it work. But it's worth it. If you want to make it if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You also teach music. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So I do peripatetic teaching. So I go around some schools, it's mainly been primary schools, and I do private teaching at home as well, which is, some kids are mainly adults that I teach privately. Yeah. Yeah. Is that changed a lot through COVID? Did you have to do lots of stuff online? Yeah, so a lot of it was online, which is tough. I think teaching online is really, there's some really good things about it, in the sense that it's actually you can fit more people in, you know, condense it. So and, and you you don't have in, yeah, you're not having to do too much traveling. So that's good. And it's convenient, especially for adults. Because often if you finish work, and then you have to go out to the clarinet lesson, you can be bothered to go and do that, you know, on a dark evening. And actually, that timelines worked quite a lot for them because they can slot in the parents with the children because they're, you know, if you've got to having to take little Germany to x and x. You know, it's tiring, isn't it after your work? So some parents are actually quite good. But but it isn't. It isn't the same. Yeah. Nothing can nothing is the same as having face to face lessons. So that was tough during the pandemic, but everyone that I teach cope so well. And it was amazing to be able to keep it going. Yeah, yeah. So your place is called Darby. That's it. Right. Yeah. And you're near Birmingham? Yeah. Are you from the North? This is one of those questions. Because, you know, I think it's because if you're from the south, everything north of Birmingham is the North. Whereas if you're from the north, then like, then it depends on where you, you know, if you were from Yorkshire, you would not pass me as a Northerner. It'd be like, Midlands, that's not enough. Whereas if you were London, you'd probably class be a Northerner. So that depends on who you talk to. Looking at the map, like there's still quite a lot of north north of you. Yeah, quite a lot going up. Yeah. To be to be safe. I'm in Midland, you're indecisive. I don't know where I am just hovering around. That's funny. It's like your relative to other people telling you where you are. That's it. That's it. Sorry, I'm scrolling now. What sort of projects? Can you share any projects that you've got on the go stuff you've got coming up that you want to share? With the list? Yes. Yes. So what am I doing? So we've got a work one of the jobs that I do I work for a hospital trusters arts coordinator on Amis music coordinator, and during the pandemic, we did some Commission's and writing some stuff. So this year, we've got We've got quite a big project coming up in the summer, which is going to be a reflection on the pandemic and stuff with the staff. And so we've written a song for that, which we'll do with the staff choir. And it's hopefully going to be a sharing a lot of the staff wrote poems and things like that as part of like reflection for them. So I'm organizing that which will be hopefully really beautiful and really reflective and really nice. And then threaded wise, we've got at the moment, putting together some for some summer festivals. And we're working with the University in Nottingham as well to develop some tech which will support the access. So that's a bit of a kind of experiment as to what they are developing and we will try will pilot is from festivals and see, see how it works. And if it works. So we're going to be doing that in the summer, as well. And that's ongoing and yes on collective performances. And we're going to try we're going to we're getting back on with some threaded stuff this year as well. So we've got some dates of the day with names and we're gonna write some new music. Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. And then, yeah, we've got the red tree, which is the the music I've written for the theatre company that's been live streamed. On Sunday, the twin, it's Sunday, the 29th of January at Wolverhampton theatre. So I mean, if it's live stream, I imagine that anybody could get one even if you're in Australia, you could watch it I imagine if it's live streamed, yeah, for sure. So that story, the red tree, I think it's aimed at children six upwards, and it's about, it's about the little girl who she wakes up in a room and she's got nothing to look forward to. And each book, each picture of the book is a different kind of scenario. And it's about anxiety, depression, really, I think the book, but then at the end, it's all hopeful. So they've been doing a lot of work. And so it's going to be live streamed into schools during the week. But anyone with children that especially after the pandemic that has that type of, you know, children, because children have experienced a lot of isolation and anxiety more than I think. I know, I know, that happens anyway. But I think just so it's just such a big thing. At the moment, I think they thought it was going to be a really great book, because it might help children reflect on their feelings a little bit. So for sure. A good one to check out if anyone wants to watch some live stream theater. So yeah, and then. Yeah, and then I think, and then apart from that, I just got to try and get some more gigs in but I am being honest, because I'm on maternity leave. So yeah, real thing, but. But I have just after LUMION and really started school in September. So that juggle, I've got on with some stuff, but I need to get back on that. And then I'm also starting my baby music classes back at the start of next month as well, because I do a little group called Ed tempos. And it's really lovely. And so because I've got Aluna, I can take him and I do that, because that's really nice. And it's really good now, because I've got the children and I've seen them go through that. So did did it with the others. It's like it actually is amazing. I know. I know, music is amazing for children's development. But I've seen firsthand that now. Like seeing it go from nought to five. Because they did all this stuff like rubes is like her ear and all those musical issues that the pianos just work like to work out tunes. And that that's just because of exposure, you know, and you don't have to come from a musical household for your children to be able to do that. I think all children can do it. It's just exposure. Yeah, that's Yeah. How long have you been doing you? Is it teeny? Temporary? Tiny? Yeah, TV tempos? So we started it when Yeah, we started it when I was little. And so when was that? 20. I think it started in 2019. And we did a bit of it before the pandemic. And then then we did it. We moved it online for a term. But it was one of those things that was just tough to do online. And then I could have gone back and started it face to face, but because of a lot of the restrictions, and the and just the risk assessments and all the cleaning and everything, I was just a bit overwhelmed. I was like, oh, you know, I'd be really stressed about under disinfect everything because I have to do that in teach with teaching in schools, but it's kind of with older kids, you can disinfect the stones you can disinfect everything I've touched, but with babies and children and putting things in their mouths and using the right cleaners and I was like Ah, there's just too much. So I thought I'll just wait until things have calmed down a little bit and find a way to make that work. So we're starting the face to face stuff, but that's really really nice and it's nice to help other parents use music as a way to communicate with their babies and be confident to do it as well because it's like you know so many people and but you find that being a vocalist as well, that we can all sing and We have different levels of as my dad always says Rosie likes to sing. Definitely doesn't mean that Gabby, I think, but I think what's really what everybody can and babies don't care about how, whether or not you're any good, they just love that sound and the connection. So, and sometimes it's just finding, it's just knowing what to do and how to do it. Give mums and dads the confidence, or grandparents or whoever it is the confidence to communicate with your baby through music and song because it just enhanced their development so much. And you know, into even intonations between words, there's some specific things that they can they latch on to, and tones of voice for positive and negative and things like that, which, once you know it, it's really nice for you to be able to use that and communicate with your baby. But a lot of it is confidence and parents not having the confidence to sing or not, not even knowing the nursery rhymes because it's been such a long time. You know, if you did it as a child, and if you don't have any other children in your family, you know, if you've not got siblings or children or cousins of children, your child could be the first one for a long time. And you just have no idea what any of these babies absorb. Yeah. Yeah, so that's really nice. Yeah, I work in childcare. That's my day job. I mainly work with what are they probably 18 months to two and a half, maybe nearly three year olds. thing I find, like, I don't care. I've been doing that job for nine years now. And I'll old and I don't sing properly. When I'm at work. I just you know, hey, you've got that proper singing voice and then you've got you this this when you sing Happy Birthday to someone in a group you just sing. You don't do your prophecy voice? You know what I mean? Yeah, I just I just crack on and sing the silly songs. And I think a lot of stuff for parents, I just get so embarrassed because they think you've got to be able to sing properly, to sing and so like, your kids just want to hear you sing like they don't they're not going to judge you. And they're not. They just and you're right. It's like the rhythms and like almost like, you know, when you read a really good book with the, like, the poetry the way, the like the rhythm of the words coming out like it just expanding on that and singing something or, you know, just I don't know, like, it's just this, this expansion of language and the kids love it so much, especially if you can throw into actions. That's always good. Yeah, I think I think parents just get embarrassed because they think, Oh, I can't do this. And who's watching me and, you know, it's yeah, it's like, Just do it. Yeah, enjoy the process. The end result doesn't matter. Yeah. And your kids just love it. They just they want to hear it. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting to you, Rosie. It's been lovely. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

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Mezz Coleman Australian indie musician S2 Ep48 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter + vocal coach Mezz Coleman, mum of 2 children, aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her. Her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business, her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age, it was quite organic that Mezz would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. Straight out of high school Mezz went to Uni to study a jazz improv course. Her son was born in her final year of Uni, so Mezz has never experienced her music career without having children. Mezz has released 3 studio albums, Parts of You, Parts of Me in 2010 , Words in 2015 and a Christmas Album in 2015 . Mezz is currently recording her third studio album, a chamber indie-pop record, produced by Rohan Sforcina (Oh Mercy, Kate Miller Heidke, Ali Barter, Ferla) Adored by folk festival audiences around the country and celebrated as “a musical treasure” ( Bendigo Blues & Roots Festival ), Mezz has a unique ability to conjure worlds, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight-to-the-heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on Carols by Candlelight , and open for the likes of Kimbra, multi-award-winning songwriter Sara Storer and iconic Australian artist Shane Howard (Goanna). When she’s not performing her own material, Mezz’s experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist, has given her the opportunity to work with many international and national artists including Nana Mouskouri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne Gospel Choir. In 2021 Mezz toured as backing vocalist and keyboard player for The Marrollo Project’s “Uninvited: The Songs of Alanis Morissette” . Mezz website / music / linktree Podcast - instagram / website Music heard on todays podcast is from Mezz, used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bandik people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. It is really great to have you here. My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter and vocal coach, Mezz Coleman, who's also amother of two children aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her, her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age. It was quite organic that Ms would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. straight out of high school Mezz. went to uni to study a jazz improv and her son was born in her final year of uni. So Ms has never experienced her music career without having children. Ms has released three studio albums, parts of you parts of me in 2010 words in 2015 and a Christmas album also in 2015. Mercy is currently recording a chamber indie pop record, adored by Folk Festival audiences around the country and celebrate it as a musical treasure. By the Bendigo blues and Roots Festival. Mays has a unique ability to conjure words, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight to the heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on carols by candlelight. And I prefer the likes of Kimbra multi award winning songwriter Sarah Stora and iconic Australian artists Shane house of Goanna fame when she's not performing her own material mess his experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist has given her the opportunity to work with many international and Australian artists such as Nana Maskuri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne gospel choir in 2021. Mears tour is backing vocalist and keyboard player for uninviting the songs of Alannis Morissette. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And thanks for your continued support. Welcome to the podcast today, mares. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to meet you. Yeah, it's nice to be able to chat to you because I've been following you for a while after I sort of connected with Georgia through the Motherlode, Georgia fields, and then I saw that you were a guest on there. So I was like, oh, because I'm a musician. So I like to follow people that I can connect with in that way. So yeah. love watching you. You're playing the piano and singing the songs. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's amazing. What Georgia has set up with the mother lode. And it's like, extra special for me, because, um, I've actually known her for a really long time. We're at the same high school together. Yeah. And it's not like we've, you know, hung out throughout all the years, but we've actually known each other for ages and to just see what she's building there. That community for mother musicians. Yeah, amazing. It is. It's so it's so valuable. And it's one of those things that like, there is no rulebook of what to do. It's like you learn from each other and trip over on the way but then you sort of go, oh, I can learn from that. Or I can Yeah, take that on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're a musician, singer and a songwriter. When did you first become interested in music? I think in many ways, I was quite lucky. I have a very musical family. So my parents It's so funny, this is a story that I've only really recently realized is quite amazing, because when it's just your normal life, you don't really think about it. But when my mum was a stay at home mum for a long time, but you know, loved singing, and my dad worked, I think, a fairly uninspiring office job somewhere. And then when we were sort of when me my brothers were sort of like, early teen years. My father's whole office got retrenched. And so he was looking for other work. And I think it was, you know, a little bit disheartening. And then just on this sort of, like, it's sort of, I think it hit him and my mum at the same time, like, we love playing music together, we should do something with this. Oh, and they ended up like, for 1015 years, like, I think they really stopped doing it maybe five or six years ago. So maybe even longer. They actually built a business playing music together. So my dad would play guitar, my mom would sing. And I guess you would say they were like music therapists, they would go into a lot of aged care places, senior citizen places, maybe I'm not sure, maybe hospitals as well, I might be wrong about that. And they would sing for people, and they would and people would join in, and they would like do the songs that would you know, maybe trigger a lot of memories for older people. And so I grew up just thinking it was totally normal to make a living, playing music. That is awesome. Yeah. And when I say totally normal, like, it was tight, sometimes, you know, like, they'd have good weeks, and then then have not such good weeks in terms of, you know, financial, so, but yeah, like I just sort of learnt from an early age that you can play music and make a living from it, and also makes such a big difference in the world with that, I think that's the other thing that they were doing was it was so much more than being like, perfect, or technically brilliant. It was about like sharing a real gift with people. And so I sort of grew up with that idea. And then on top of that, I was really lucky that both of my brothers are quite musical. So we would often just jam together and play together. And then when I went off to high school, a lot of my friends were musical and musicians. And I don't know, I I feel almost like spoiled now that I've met other people who haven't had that experience and really had to fight to kind of play music, even in terms of like, sort of going against maybe what their families, you know, would like them to do and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, very lucky that musics just been around me, and I've been immersed in it. And if anything, I probably just came to it because there wasn't much else I could do. I'm just like, quite good at this. I'm not quite not very good at much else. So. Yeah, sort of how I'm sort of, yeah, found music. It was very organic. Yeah, that is such an awesome story. I love that so much. It was so normal for us that I thought nothing of it. And if anything, I just shrugged my shot I did. And it's only been in the last year or two. That's amazing. That's a really amazing and inspiring thing to see your parents go off and do. Yeah, and that thing to that, you know, in them. I'm not sure exactly how old they were, but just say, midlife they've gone, I'm gonna totally change my career, I'm gonna take this, maybe take a risk, you know, financially, it's like, let's do this, just do something that we love. And that is so inspiring is fine. Yeah, they would have been a fair bit older than I am now. And so to think that there's, I think sometimes as an artist, and maybe especially as a female artist, I'm not sure about that. Maybe I should talk to my male friends and see if they feel the same way that you can feel like time is running out. And that clock is ticking. And oh, shit. Um, you know, I'm turning 40 Soon, and I haven't done the things I wanted to do, or a bit of probably not the same thing when I was like, in my late 20s, about turning 30. And, actually, yeah, to sort of go up, I've got plenty of time. Yes. Sort of, like, try other things. And yeah, and get this stuff done that I want to get done. You know, it's really helped me not feel like there's this mad rush. Yeah, it's really, it's almost like an empowerment that you can take the pressure off yourself. And I can sort of relate this to the kids like my son's in high school, and they start sort of on their paths of what they're going to do when they leave school. And so I keep saying to him, like I was what was I foot nearly 40 When I finally found the job that I loved, you know, you don't have to know straight away, or they do they put so much pressure on these like 1617 year olds to make these, you know, really important decisions to pick a perfect subject and your whole life will depend on it. And I just, yeah, say the same thing to my son. I'm like, whatever. You just work, you know, just do whatever you like, you know, whatever you're doing at the time, try and do your best but it's not this sort of Yeah, it's not a life or death situation. That's it, isn't it? Time to explore the world and yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You actually have to get out in the world and see how you feel in the world. And absolutely, maybe what are the things you enjoy? Right, I'm gonna leave school and go to uni and I'm gonna drop and that's it your whole life Smackdown was like, that's just so unreasonable, unreasonable and like the stories you know, just like friend after friend after friend who went and started a uni course. And within a year had gone this is so not for me. So like, you know, there's yeah, there's just no rush. It's a really nice Yeah, absolutely. Gosh. Being exposed to the music with your parents, did you start playing particular instruments? At that point? What were you playing? Yeah. So again, when I was quite young, there was this. I just feel so lucky for these rich experiences that I totally took for granted as a child, but there was a woman in my neighborhood who was she played piano? Like, I think back in Dancehall, dancehalls, back in the day, and so she just like, as a very local little business, just all the little kids in the area would go to her house and learn the piano. And you'd get your lowly and you learn your scales, and you'd go through your books, but the thing about her that really set her apart is like she was, you know, I thought of her I think she was you know, quite, she wasn't old, she's still with us. So she's not like that, you know, she was quite a lot older than say, like my parents at the time. And she was so different to so many, like, sort of music teachers in that it didn't take her long to work out that my heart wasn't in all the technical stuff. And also that, you know, I like to sing. So from a really young age, she kind of worked that out. And she was like, Well, I'm going to teach you how to like play chords and accompany yourself, and I'm going to teach you how to improvise. And like, you know, we're not just going to play fair release. And the entertainer and I did do a bit of this wonderful piano teacher who like really picked up early that I wanted to learn that kind of stuff. Maybe even before I knew that, that's what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I've played the piano forever and, and have learnt piano in a way where I've been able to accompany myself to sing since I was practically a kid. And so that's always been a part from my voice. I'm a singer first, but piano would be my secondary instrument. And that's generally the instrument that I write with. And when I'm writing music, and then, you know, just in those sort of primary school and high school years, I dabbled in the flute. And I wasn't bad at it, but my heart wasn't in it. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. The guitar. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's always time. I love that. That story about your music teacher that that is such a gift for her to give you because so many music teachers, it's like theory. You know, like I, I, my experience was with teachers that basically you had to learn your scales yet to know what all the notes were called, and how long you held them for. And I just wanted to play stuff by ear. And it was like, really, like, my, my teacher wasn't as amazing as yours. But I think back now, like, I would have loved to have just learned how to accompany myself, that would have been amazing. Well, she was yeah, she was quite an amazing woman. And actually, a few years ago, I felt really compelled to reach out and thank her and I wrote her this letter, just like, Oh, my God, you're amazing. Thank you. And I got this beautiful letter back. And I think she'd be in her like late 80s by now. The funny thing is, though, when she was teaching me what I think she must have been quite brilliant. Because while she kind of adapted the lessons to suit me and my needs, she somehow was sneaking that theory. And I actually have got a fairly good, you know, theoretical foundation, but really kind of managed to do it in a way where it was helpful or making sense to the end. Yeah, relative to what you wanted to do with your music like, yeah, she's, yeah, she whatever she was, she was working her magic. That's for sure. What a gem of a woman honestly. That's honestly, we should all have a lady like that in our lights. Just be amazing. Marge Williams is her name. Good. Good on your Marge. Give her a shout out. I wish I had met Marge when I was when I was a little girl. That would have been amazing. Yeah. So the game All right. at the moment with your music is your music your life? That's what you do you. Yeah. So, in a roundabout way, I've managed to get to a point in my life where I can sort of comfortably say that I make my living as a musician. But like, realistically, that, Oh, quite a fair percentage of that living is coming from being like, like working in the teaching field, as well as performing and recording and all of those things. I'm really fortunate to have quite a good teaching job at a university here in Melbourne, where I teach mostly singing, like a one on one singing lessons to the students that come through. But I also help, you know, work with bands, and, you know, mentor some of that, you know, mentor the students through some of those processes and classes. And then on top of that, yeah, my, so, artistically, the thing that I'm most passionate about, and I'm always working towards, sometimes slowly, but is my own music that I write. And that I really, yeah, I pour a lot of myself into. And then I guess the other thing, and obviously, work has been quite quiet in the last couple of years due to COVID. But as a singer, like, as a vocalist, I can Yeah, I often work in that field, I guess for other people. So doing session work in studios for like, people that need a, you know, a vocal line on this particular track, or a harmony or a demo and, and working as a backing vocalist for other artists as well. So through or So like most, I think, not just me, I think like most artists, you generally you don't have like that sort of nine to five, steady job, you just you have your fingers in all of the pies, and you kind of slowly build whatever it is that you're building that way, which in some ways is kind of stressful, because you can't remember what do I do on Wednesday. And, you know, there can be dips financially, of course, especially when we're in COVID. But even before that, to be honest, but I also know I wasn't built for a nine to five job. So in many ways, it's thrilling to be doing a few different things. And I get quite excited when I'm looking in my diary and I'm like, Oh, I've been booked for that session next week cool, like different people different kinds of environments. So yeah, yeah. Without the teaching work It'd be impossible Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that you but you're still so involved in music like it's not like it doesn't probably doesn't feel like a real autonomous a real job because it is a real job but you know, you're you're really enjoying what you're doing. Absolutely. I there are things about teaching that can be quite draining and you know, because I put a lot of myself into it. But there are also like yeah, I'm still like I'm surrounded by music every day many of my students inspire me I work I have amazing peers so like other teachers that I work with they're all musicians so I'm sort of like spending time in that world still yeah work yeah sounds awesome yeah day and God fashion keep it to myself most days I struggle to this crew good. Kids my thing carefree was counting on. But it's a bit of an intro into your children. I came into what were you doing at the time when you had your children? Oh, goodness, okay, so I have, my son is almost 16. And my daughter is 11. And my son in particular came along in a very interesting time. I was studying music at university. So I went straight out of high school into a music course that I studied is like a jazz kind of improv course, which was interesting. And in that final semester, of the entire course, I discovered I was pregnant. And that was quite intense. Because I was trying to like, sort of start this music, career, whatever that is. The same time, I suddenly had this, like, human being that was like, gonna need my care. So I had him when I was 21. So nearly my, so my entire music career really has coincided with raising a child, which has been, which has had some real positives, and has also obviously presented quite a few challenges. Yeah, he's sort of been with me every step of the way. And, yeah, it's been. Yeah, overall, it's been a really great thing. And yeah, I guess the main, the main thing that I now know, looking back, not that I would change a thing, but I never really got those years prior to kids to build something up first. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, like my 20s. You know, for instance, I didn't spend my 20s being able to just say yes to every opportunity, or like, just be like, yes, we'd all go on that tour. See, everyone, I had to be from sort of day one, I never stopped, like, I always like, you know, I released an EP not long after he was born, which, kind of like, Oh, my God, how did I do that. However, I probably never had quite the capacity to take things as far as I would have liked. Because like, the child comes first. Like, that's the reality. And so like, my music always played, like a really close second to my number one priority, which was, you know, raising this beautiful boy. So. Yeah, that's, that's just how that's just how it has been for me, like music and parenting have always had to coexist. I don't remember ever. Yeah, obviously, like, I've got an amazing partner. We've been together for a long time. And so I've never had to do it all alone, which is great. But like just little things, like, I don't know what it's like to book a gig without also going, who's gonna watch the kids? I actually never had that experience. It's always been those two things happening at the same time. So yeah, it's a unique perspective, isn't it? It's a little different. Yeah, and I can definitely see how it would have its positives. It does. Yeah, there have definitely been positive. So the positive that I'm feeling now and the so like, you know, the positive place that I find myself in now, is I'm currently at a place with an 11 year old and an almost 16 year old who are pretty independent. And I now have this time and space and energy to be really going for it. And so where a lot of my friends who like have done a lot of their now maybe like they've got toddlers, or they've just had a baby. And so well, while a lot of my peers are probably like slowing down a little bit, which is so fine. They should, they've got kids that need that care. I'm at a place now where I'm really like, much more sort of time rich, and kind of really go for it. And the fact is, I think my music is better now than it was when I was 2122 23. So I could have you know, the energy and the time that I could have poured into my art back then I'm sure it would have been great. But actually, I think the work I'm making is better now with maturity. And now I have this energy also to kind of Yeah, kind of play with I guess. I think the other thing that helps sort of having children along pretty much from the beginning is you. You tend to I don't want to say you use your time well, because people who know me would know that I'm not great at that. But I guess like as in I'm a terrible planner, and I can, you know, procrastinate like anybody's business. But I guess the thing that I do know when you know if you've got to babysitter, and you need to be, you know, so you've aren't, hey, I've got a rehearsal. And I've asked someone to watch the kids till you know, this time, you don't just wander into that rehearsal and blah, blah, blah and wait, like, so you have shorter pockets of time. And so you bloody well use them properly. And so what I found is like, yeah, like, so? Yeah, you it's almost like you get these pockets of time, you don't have just like this rich expanse, expensive time just before you when you can do whatever you want. And slowly, you know, kind of work on songwriting, or rehearsal or recording session, like, sometimes your time is limited, generally, always, to be honest. And as a result, you get quite good at working pretty fast. If I'm honest. Like, yeah, I'm pretty good at getting in and out of the studio, like, position work. And I reckon, part of that has just been through experience where I'm like, Well, I've got to leave it midday. So I think I've got that skill where I can be a little bit like, when I really have to focus on time, creatively, I can kind of just get it done. Same with songwriting, like I really, I mean, I don't, I'm not a prolific songwriter, like, I don't write heaps. But I do feel like when I'm like, Okay, I've got this time, I've got this energy and like, say, when the kids were younger, you know, the kids are occupied, or away or whatever, and I've got these few hours, I would generally walk out of there with a song or two, because it was like, I have to, really, ya know, so that kind of time pressure can work. to your advantage. Also, there's the flip side to that, where the time pressure can be a massive disadvantage in terms of just not having the space and the time that you would want to give to your art. Yeah, so there's like the payoff of that as well. But I think yeah, really fast. Yeah, yeah. It's it's instilled those skills in you and then you can you can take that through the rest of your life really. Because you just want to be. conscious. You mentioned because you had your son, like, you've never known your career without your son. What was that like then for you being in that world with other musicians, other women who weren't mums yet? Was that how did that feel for you being in that environment? Yeah. So there were, again, musicians, like, especially female musicians, are just beautiful people. And so while I was, for a long time, the only one in my peer group with a child, you know, I used to, like I'm thinking back two years ago, like a long time ago, when he was quite little. And I was actually in this singing group with three other singers. And one of them has gone on to just be absolutely amazing. I'm sure you've heard of it. Ainsley wills. She's like, the best. Anyway, and I remember, I would just take the baby to rehearsals, and they were so lovely. They would like hold him that because it was so cute. Get a lot of like that kind of, oh, we'll hold him and we'll look after him and using that. And so I remember back in the day, actually having a lot of support in the moment, like the other musicians were absolutely amazing. I had an I had a band at the time, and we would rehearse weekly and sometimes I just have to bring, you know, my top baby or toddler with me, and you know, and actually everyone else in that band would dudes. Yeah, some of them were my brothers. So they were like uncles to the to the baby. But you know, our guitarist wasn't and I don't know, he could have just been like, this is crap. I'm, you know, I didn't sign up to kind of come to the studio and keep climbing all over my face, so generous and so kind about it. And so musicians in general, were pretty lovely, and pretty welcoming. I think where it became a challenge was more than just the industry wasn't set up for it. So while individuals within the industry were like, so beautiful, so kind, really found Yeah, the whole situation, I'm sure they were all a bit like, Oh my God, but you know, they were like, is like, our friends got a baby. It's so weird, but um, yeah, everyone was lovely. But it was more when it came to things like geeks and knights and just being like, we can't bring him here, you know, it's dirty, there's no way to breastfeed or change a nappy. You know, I really found that within Melbourne, like, where I live, I was very active in the music scene, and, you know, still am. But if I've never really felt I had the capacity. I know, some parents do. And I'm just like, wow, they're amazing, but I never really felt like I had the capacity to tour. So I've never really even even now like, have never really too much. Or like, sort of been able to spread further than that, because I just didn't feel like there was much space or capacity there to like, take him with me, or, you know, the alternative, I guess would be to leave him for long stretches of time, which again, like, I've thrown no shade on parents who can do that. Like it's just each to their own. Just with, I guess, my parenting style and his personality and needs. That actually didn't feel like an option either. Where I could sort of almost be like, Alright, you're staying at Nando's for two weeks, I'm off. That was just, that was just not a way that we could do things for him. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. But like, no, yeah, other women and like my peers, my friends. They were so lovely. It was actually divine, like the way they kind of embraced this little baby and toddler who was sometimes at rehearsals, and sometimes it gigs. And, you know, even though none of them had kids, so they'll probably all a bit like, I don't know what to do, but they would hold him or Yeah, you know. But it was more yet the industry as a general kind of beast, I guess. Yeah, my, my, my place there felt a little. I don't know, where Be quiet anymore. Yeah. I'm going off track slightly. But do you think that is because it's mainly a male dominated industry? Or has been in the past? Yeah, I think so. Totally. And I think it's changing. And I think that's really exciting. Yeah, like men, you know, historically, can have kids, and still go off and do their own thing, you know. And, yeah, I think that's definitely, you know, how the world works, too. This is not just the music scene, it's the patriarchy and action. But I do feel like it's changing, I just think the changes are slow. And I think it's different. Now I see friends who sort of musician friends with babies now. And I think that the capacity that they have, and the understanding that they have from other people, I think, is better than probably I had at the time. Also, I've gotta remember, I was very young, I wasn't hugely educated. And so I probably didn't have the capacity personally to like, advocate for things that maybe I would now as a 37 year old woman, like, hey, use rehearsal space, I'm going to have to bring my child wet, you know, like, I'm gonna have to feed him, what are you going to do to help me like, you person to begin with, and especially when I was 21, and probably much more overwhelmed than I allowed myself to kind of think I was, I wasn't gonna ask that I was just gonna, like, yeah. Or, or, or see that as an opportunity that I couldn't have or I don't know, feed him in the car, or, you know, so I think sometimes, you know, having a little bit more, you know, a few more years behind you, and just a bit more confidence. I've advocated for myself a little bit more and being a bit more assertive, but I think the industry is changing. Like, there are so many more women speaking up in the industry, about and not just about motherhood, but just about sexism in general. And just small things like, you know, there are more I'm seeing more females working in manager, you know, like artist manager roles who are female, so they're just gonna have a, I'm sure, just more empathy for the say, their female clients around some of this stuff. I'm seeing more female sound engineers and producers, and I think that is really, really important. publicists did just seem to be a whole bunch of dudes back in the day. Doing that stuff. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's changing but I just think like anything in life changes are slow. So especially when you're trying to change Something that's been endemic since the beginning of time, but seems like we're looking at like this tiny little kind of music industry. I don't know, from my perspective in Melbourne even like, yeah, yeah, that's it. We're talking about an issue that is like, just the way humanity has been built for a very long time. So, yeah, yeah, I can see. Yeah, but I think more more and more women, a lot of performers who have children, I guess it may be being like, if I'm maybe social media, I think social media can be a bit. Yeah, um, but I think sometimes social media might be great in that way that they might post like, they're on tour, but you can see the kid in the backseat of the car, or, you know, I don't know. So maybe, maybe like, you know, female artists sharing their experiences of like, motherhood and the road or motherhood and recording or just motherhood in any sort of arts practice. Just makes it again, it just normalizes it. That's it, isn't it? And it makes it sound achievable for yourself. Because like you said, as a 21 year old, though, that that wasn't in you at that stage. But maybe if social media had been around, or if you had seen someone do it, you would have thought hang on a sec. That's, that is acceptable. I'm gonna have a crack at this sort of, sort of mentality. Yeah, yeah, just seeing some art. Okay. There are a few other artists, you know, doing this as well, because yeah, I definitely felt while everyone was so kind, you know, my other musician, friends, I think, you know, when you're in something, it's very hard to really know how you feel. Because I know when you've just had a baby, sometimes you're in survival mode to a certain extent you just like, head down doing what you got to do. And so I think now that sort of time has passed, I can be a bit more reflective. And I think I was, I think there was still a sense, even though no one overtly excluded me, ever. I do think I felt very alone. Because I didn't have other peers really having that same experience. And then the few people I would look up to and like, oh, wow, that person is a mother and a singer, songwriter, too. They wouldn't maybe I still felt alone in that a little because maybe they'd had their kids a bit later. And so they still had maybe a bit more of an established Korea. Look up to them. Okay, I'll just do what they do. And then I just almost find that really disheartening. Almost more so because I'm like, they're like, doing it all like, and they've got kids and I'm not doing it all. Yeah, so yeah, it was a bit lonely at times. Buried, you came alone with your shop, silent, said, get out, get in, just get to your beauty, your voice your take on a magic. I want to ask you about when you said before, that you you did your AP, when your son was young? And you said I don't know how I did it. Yeah. How did you actually do it? Was he? Is he coming with you a lot? Yeah. Like, how to physically manage it. The first thing to know about my son and my daughter. And it is what it is like. And again, like when it comes to parenting and how we do it. I just have no, I just people do what they've got to do. Like, I just do not care how other people like feed their kids sleep their kids like you do what you got to do. For me, personally, neither of my kids. So it wasn't because like of my own belief system around feeding, but neither of my kids would take a bottle. So the only way they were fed was via me for you know, 18 months, both of them my daughter a bit longer. So they were breastfed, which just meant they couldn't not be with me for long. So the hours so how did I do that EP, I think I had started recording it before he was born. Which helped so I think a lot of the work had been done. And then I think I did little short recording sessions in around feeds Due to finish off some of the vocal stuff, and then when it came time, I guess to like launching it, you know, like playing it playing like some shows and try to build up a bit of publicity around it, which again, like things have changed a bit, I probably would now, looking back, hire a publicist, which I didn't at the time, so it was just a lot of email, beat magazine, and whatever else it was. I just sort of it was just in snatched moments. i Yeah. And I don't know if that's the most sustainable way to do it. But I don't know any other way. I could have done it. Late nights when the babies are finally asleep. That was often when I would sit on the computer and email out my, you know, although Admony type parts of music rehearsals were Yeah, like, he'd be there. And just thankfully, my musician friends were cool with that. Yeah, the actual launch. I remember, I remember the gig, it was a great gig. It was really, you know, everyone came it was, I was so blessed. You know, like, it was a really beautiful moment. And yeah, we brought him. And so yeah, it was sort of this bar. I'm looking back, nothing was even allowed in there. I don't know. But you know, like a band room and a bar. And it was really crowded. And, you know, it was a great show. And yeah, just with this, I think by then you might have been walking, you know, like, sort of toddler age, just sort of this little toddler near the front of the stage. And it was stressful, because like, I think what we sort of had arranged was like, he'll come but people, they're sort of watching him like my mom or whatever. But no one quite watches your child the way you would. So I remember just being on stage and just being like someone grabbing plays, you know, like, he was too close. But like not like just all like I'm literally performed. Internally, almost just yelling at people like, move him grab him. He's too close to that, or whatever it was. Yeah. Looking back. That's not a way to perform. Hey, but yeah, so in hindsight, I probably would have just booked a babysitter and not had him there. at them, you know, in the moment, it felt like the right thing to do to have him there with us. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think snatches of time is probably the best way to describe, especially those early days when you know, you're fairly sleep deprived, or, you know, they're very kids are very young. Yeah. Like parenting is like a lifelong journey. Like you're never not a parent, you're always on. But those early years, that, like the time that is required of you is very demanding. Yeah, that's it, that changes when they get older, which is really great. And I'm sort of, I think, you know, enjoying the benefits of that now. But also, they become more complex human beings. So I find it emotionally more challenging now. Yeah. But I am getting sleep. And I go somewhere during the day, and my son, gets himself to school, gets himself home, if he wants to go out on the weekend, like, we're at that stage where I'm just like, Oh, my goodness, like so independent. It's brilliant. I love it. And I'm so happy for him because he's obviously enjoying that independence. And yeah, when you think back to just like, oh, you couldn't leave me for more than two hours? Because it is so nice to be in that space. But yeah, then you I don't know. Because you you said you've got a 14 year old that I worry one out or I'm not emotionally like, oh, yeah, it's a whole different ballgame. Isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, like, yeah, the emotionally draining is a good way of describing it. Because you're, yeah, you're just you're trying to solve problems for him. I help him through things and issues with mental health. And yes, yes. This Yeah. Like you become a psychologist. And yeah, my sister in law, Nicole said recently because her kids are sort of my age, but we have nephews and nieces. Who are that younger age, that sort of baby toddler. And yeah, like, she just sort of commented like in a family thread recently, like, Oh, those beautiful days. I miss them. Like, yeah, they were demanding, but they weren't complex. Like, Oh, I feel every word of that. Yeah. So it's a different type of energy that you're pouring into your children, but you never stop. And I'm sure when they're 20 3040. Like, you'll That's it, isn't it? Yeah. It'll be it'll be something it'll be different again. It'll be Yeah, another thing. seems insane to say this, but then maybe there'll be grandkids and you're like, yeah, what's my role here? But I'm gonna use to believe that I'm still way too young to even consider that. So. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I'll come back to you in like 30 is time when you're doing the grandmother artist. thing. That's awesome. Well, I won't have to worry about one of my kids, because my eldest has told me that he's never having children because it's just too hard. He's seen what we were going through. He's living with a six year old. So he's like, I'm not having kids. We're modeling like, how hard it is. Yeah. Yeah.Because you're gonna want to tow back to? So one of the questions I asked my mums is about before you had kids, what was your influences for your art? And then after you have kids? So asking you this is going to be a little bit different? Because I mean, I'm sure you're going to have some, you know, obviously, to music when you're a child, but in terms of what's influenced you, have you noticed that that has changed? Or how you look at your music? Or I don't know what what sort of changes has your own creativity gone through? As you became a mom? Yeah, I think I think the thing? That's a great question. Like, musically, my influences were pretty broad growing up, and I don't think that's changed. You know, like, one day, all I want to do is listen to Abba. And then the next thing I just want to listen to, like, you know, I actually listened to a lot of classical and choral music, and I don't make that music. But it's often what inspires me the harmony in that is so rich, I love harmony. Actually, that's like probably a big part of what I'm drawn to as a musician is harmony and melody. And so I listen to a lot of music that feels quite dense and rich in that way. As I said before, like before my son came along, I was training more in that sort of jazz wealth, and so was playing quite a lot of jazz music. And a lot of those sort of early jazz singers really inspired me in terms of their vocal sound. So like I absolutely I do absolutely love Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Billie Holiday. huge Beatles fan of course. Yes. My parents pretty much raised me on on the Beatles. And again, their harmony always three. In terms of the Yeah, what inspires me now I think the one thing I feel like my 20s were a little different, right? So a lot of music that's often about like, heartbreak and breaking up, or will we or won't we like just for whatever reason, like I kind of, I found my partner quite young. And we had quite a different experience, like in our 20s. And so I guess sometimes that music even I can really love it. It's not necessarily themes that I'm super drawn to. I guess I'm drawn to themes, like Yeah, so I really loved clear that Bowditch I've never known whether it's Bowditch about it, by the way, but you know what I mean? Yes, I do know, album that came up, actually, when my son was quite little. That was the whole theme was grief. Yeah, I, that had a huge impact on me, because I was like, Oh, you can write a whole album on grief. Like, you don't have to write a whole album on like, you broke up with me, and I'm gonna break up with you. And now we're back together. Because I guess a lot of like, songs in the popular culture are still like, some version of a love song. Yet she wrote this incredible indie pop album on grief. So do you remember what the name of that album was? I do now it was what was left. So it was. That's funny that I just said it. Yes. So she made the album in 2005. And my son was born 2006. So I really remember listening to that. I don't even remember that I was stuck in a lot of grief at the time. But it was more like there were growing up themes. You know, there were real life themes. And they were themes that I kind of that really resonated with me so that that album actually had a huge impact because it showed me that there were other things I could write about. And I could write about things that were really real to me. You know, one of the songs that is on my new album that is still you know, in we're in the process of making and releasing is actually just all without boundaries, I would not have written a song about boundaries when I was 18. Because it's not very sexy at all. I really like it. You know, like, that stuff's important to me. Yes. So, so that album had huge impacts and a huge impact on me. from more of a lyrical perspective, yeah. And then like, musically, my tastes have just never really changed because they were always broad to begin with. And they remain really broad. So I listened to a lot of music that I know I'll never make, like I listen to a lot of neo soul. I'm probably not going to make me I mean, I love it. You know, Jill Scott is one of my favorite singers. And I also just know straight up that I will never sound anything like Jill Scott or make me look like us. But I still love absolutely love her. So I don't. Yeah, don't necessarily always listen to a lot of music that's similar to the music I make. But I don't know, I think that can really make help you be really well rounded to when you're really open to all sorts of styles. And, yeah, I'm so sorry. That's my dog. Oh, hey, puppy. Sorry. I had my cat in here before and she's got a little bell on a collar. And I was like, Don't scratch your head. It's actually not much of a back and normally I think maybe another dog walk by what sort of dog is he? He's a stuffy cross. We don't know what we use in rescue dog. Yeah, and he's one my heart big. Heart. Yeah, he's funny. Yesterday, I interviewed a lady and she had a stuffy as well. Oh, really? And it my son's been on this bandwagon that he wants to get a stuffy and I was like maybe the universe is telling me something. While banjo is a real sweetheart. Yeah, like he was pretty full on when we got him because he was a rescue and hadn't. Yeah, he we pretty much were starting from scratch with him. Yeah, yeah, he's just Yeah, cuddly and but anyway, I think he's still packing now. Good job AJ. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I was a new member too. Yeah, when you saying before about influences, but they're not necessarily what you put in your music. I appreciate the Beatles so much because of what they've allowed me to understand about how you can present your music. Like, you can do whatever the hell you want. Like, honestly, I play this. And like if you want to, like play, record your guitar solo, and then play it backwards. You can do that. And then you can. But the thing that got me was like, changes of tempo within songs and different elements that go together to make the same song but it's like you're just grabbing stuff from everywhere. And I was just like, I don't have I had a poster on my wall. I've got my Abbott poster up there. And I did have one but it failed. Me Oh my God, and harmonies, harmonies just a massive thing that I love so much. Yeah, it's just like, can just be shown what's like, same thing with your example. With clear it's like, you can write an album on whatever you'd like. Like, I call it the Taylor Swift music like the we broke up and we're getting back together. And then you didn't call me about you know, all this, which I see is really frivolous now, because I'm, you know, happily married and have lots of, you know, security about my life. But I think you know, I can understand where that fits in. But yeah, there's just so much depth to stuff and a singer songwriter that I really admire. Jen lash, I'm not sure if you've heard of Jen. She's a South Australian artist. And look her up. I think you'd really like her music. She's, and she's been a guest on my podcast, and I kind of see her as a bit of a mentor. I don't know if she knows that. Hi. All my mentors have no idea that they might Yes. She inspired me to be able to write songs about really difficult subjects, but make them really listening. So the musical in her words, the musical treatment that she gives that song allows it to be like received by people sort of thing. And about a topic that's very jarring. Yeah, maybe maybe the music can be jarring, too. But maybe you're gonna let more people in if allows that. Yeah. And so yeah, she really inspired me With a song that she wrote about postnatal depression called called Wolf, and when I heard I saw she sang it live. She came down here as part of a sort of a was called Palomino nights at the wall shed it was in this old watershed down in Glencoe. And she performed in this space and when I heard that song, I just went, oh my god, like it was like someone had slapped me in the face and gone. Yeah, you can do stuff about anything. Yeah, so she's really inspired me. Jen lash. Okay. Look her up. Jen's amazing. I love Jen so much. And she's listened to her episode, because she's got such an amazing way of speaking the way she articulates things. She's just such a wordsmith like, Ah, just love. I will definitely listen. Yeah. Yeah, just knowing that you can write about anything, I think was really? Yeah, that's definitely what that clear album did for me. And then you've got that album. She bought out years later, which was the winter I chose happiness, where the theme was almost about this kind of like, so she done his album about grief. And then years later, she did this album. But it wasn't that frivolous happiness. It was, like real choice. Like it was like an oyster kind of. And so again, that another album she might use later also had huge impacts on me like, oh, you can write about happiness without being cheesy. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So yeah, just, yeah. How good is music? So lucky? This? Pretty much you will never hear it all, you know? Yeah. Yeah. People always, actually, because I work with students. They're often like, oh, have you heard blah, blah, blah. And I'll be someone a bit younger. So someone I haven't heard of. And, you know, my mind is just continually blown. Yeah. Let's see. I go through phases, like where I deliberately don't listen to current music, because I want to stay in the past in some way. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to admit that I don't know what's happening right now in music. Like I just I like to know, I like to be able to sing along and I know what's coming. But then sometimes I think I'm missing out on so much, if I don't you know it, because there's so much amazing stuff being done. Some of it's a lot of crap. But there is a lot of crap. There is a lot of crap. And I think therefore we sort of go, it's all crap. Yeah, you can kind of like wade through the crap. There is also just some amazing. Yeah, there's sort of amazing music being made at the moment. But it's also not the music that's necessarily in the top 20. So yeah, that's it is more. Yeah. And I think over the years, I've become a lot. Obviously, as you get older, you understand things, you understand how things work, and the thought the whole thing about the NSA pop, you know, in inverted commas, because it's not necessarily I don't know, any music can be popular, but I'm talking about in a commercial sense. Yeah, it is really is just a big business. You know, it's just about producers, people, finding people, people making money off those people and, and the person themselves becomes the product. And yeah, always freaks me out a bit, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've come, I've come quite jaded of that. And, and not wanting to care. Like, I know, like, commercial radio is literally commercial radio. Like, it's just people, they pay the money to have the songs on. And so I've had a bit of a wake up call, like, for many years, it's like, I just want to be, I want to be on the radio, I want my songs on the radio. And then when I understood it, I was like, no, actually, I want my songs on community radio, because that's where the relationships are. And that's where your people care about the songs they're playing. They have a choice about the songs they're playing, you know? Yeah, so that yeah, no, that's it. Yeah, you're so right. Like, I mean, yeah. Also, I think just the way music and how people listen to music is changing. So I'm not even sure anymore, that being getting on the radio isn't necessarily the golden ones. Still space for it. And especially think there's space for community radio, like here in Melbourne, we've got like PBS and triple out there, and they're huge stations, and they're amazing. And you know, to be on one of those stations. I think it's fantastic. But yeah, I don't know, you know, there are so many ways people can access music now that, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's probably one of many ways you can reach an audience, but maybe not sort of the only way. Yeah, it used to feel Yeah, absolutely. Quite, sort of, unless you were on the radio. It was like no one ever heard. You know, you can pay people to put your music on things and they were know, yeah, totally. But I mean, it's the world, isn't it? Yeah. Do you very expensive to be an independent musician, you know? Yeah, that'sthe thing. Isn't it no one tapped me on the shoulder and goes, Hi, here's heap of money to record. Yeah, women? Oh, no, I'll do this and that for you. It's very parenting into the mix. I think it's, and I think that's part of the challenge is, I really believe in my music, I really do. I really think it's pretty good. You know, like, I'm not saying I'm the best out there or anything like that. But I know I can sing. I know I can write I know, I'm making a pretty good record. But when my confidence starts to fall down big time is actually when I start realizing like the costs in like releasing it and releasing it. Well. You know, whether it's paying a publicist or making a video or whatever, yeah. And then when you have children in the mix, it can be really hard to justify those costs when, you know, you've got to buy school uniforms, and CDs in classes and soccer, you know, like, it can seem really self indulgent, that you're really selfish. Yeah. So it's so that's probably where I'm finding myself at the moment a bit like, the confidence in the music is there again, which is so nice, you know? Because obviously, we have times where it's not. Yeah, but it's that kind of this is, this is such an endeavor to embark on. And how can I justify I can totally appreciate that. Like my husband said to me, when I print because I like to print say days and albums, because I think people's people still like to put things in means. I found what I when I used to play a lot of folk festivals, and I found that the seat Yeah, you still needed CDs. So like, yeah, so obviously, they're not gone. Yeah, I don't think they're gone. For them to be gone. Yeah, people are also buying finally again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. People like a tangible thing, man. Yeah. And I think that the amount of effort that I end the people I'm, like, work with to do my artwork. I think that it deserves a bigger, you know, platform than just a tiny little square on the iPhone or whatever. You know, the actual your actual artwork. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, my husband is like, have you worked here? How many? So I should preface this, my husband's a financial planner, right? We can be really handy are really annoying. We could not be different worlds, honestly. So yeah, it's like, how many CDs do you have to sell to be able to make your money back? I'm just like, I am not thinking about this. I'm thinking about creating my music and giving it to the world. That is, I know, thinking about and I remember like me with my like pea size, math brain. first EP and sort of trying to do the maths and in the arm, like I can't do the bloody maths, I'm just going to do it like, yeah. And, you know, probably to be honest, years later, having a few boxes of CDs still stashed under a bit. Think it's the same for everybody. It's always a boxer CD so. Now I guess that this topic is sort of leading into something that I love to talk to moms about. And it sounds nasty when I say I love to talk to you about your mom guilt. But I find it such a fascinating topic. Yeah, we put ourselves aside like literally what we've just been talking about, like, we feel like we have to justify ourselves because you know, that money could be paid for the school fees, or could be for the groceries, you know, how how do you sort of approach that mom guilt thing? First of all, for years, I really resisted the term. And even with credit, I'd be like, Well, I don't have no guilt. Good on me. I don't believe in it. It's bullshit, and I don't have it. And then in the last few years, like of course I have, I experienced guilt as a human being and part of that is around my mothering. So yes, technically, I experienced mother guilt. I experience it often around time. So even though my kids are a lot older, my daughter in particular, she really misses me when I do things. And in many ways that's very sweet. And in other ways, it's really had, um, I can be like, you know, spending a fair amount of time and energy on my art, which I think is really fair, because I also give a lot of energy to other people. And she'll actually like, you know, if I'm, I don't know, maybe I was at the studio all day and all night and didn't get home like, and I try my best to like, you know, communicate that in advance that maybe once or twice where like, because they're not home like, you know Dad's home. So it's not like they're home alone. But that can be a real, like, she can be really upset with me that the next day was just like, I didn't know, I didn't know you would be out too late and well, and I feel really bad around that stuff. So I'm trying to get trying to get better at like, not changing what I do, because I think it's really reasonable that I'm sometimes busy doing stuff that almost I think I could, yeah, so I can experience guilt around that, kind of like the time away that it can be. And like I said before, I don't even know if it's guilt, but it's maybe like the justification around like, the financial side of things. Like I think the reality is, like, we sort of, we grew up in a world where the idea of being a musician, so 2025 years ago, it was like, Well, you just get good, and then you meet the right people, and then you get signed to a contract, and they'll give you lots of money, and you'll make records, and actually realizing that happens to such a small percentage of including musicians who we would consider to be quite big and successful. Like, they're still doing it in a very different way, I have friends who I would consider like, on paper to be much more successful than I am as musicians, and they're still working other jobs or, you know, looking for funding for certain things, you know, so it's a very, most of us not doing it that way. And the reality that I'm sort of facing at the moment, really, with this album that I'm making is that it's costing quite a bit to make. So not only am I not making money, at the moment, I'm actually spending money to make my own art, that's not a job. It's not like it's when you think about what a job, you go to work, and you get paid. I'm going I'm I'm doing a lot of work. And also forking out money. So so the whole kind of, what am I actually doing? And why am I doing it can kind of creep in sometimes because it's not if you're if you know, I call it work, I call it like, you know, I'm an artist, and I'm working and I'm this is my project. But if I'm really honest, right now, it's sort of not work. It's, it's not bringing in, it's not bringing home the bacon. So I think the guilt can then arise when because we live in a capitalist society, where we value money. So I find it much easier, even now, even after all these years, it's much easier for me emotionally, to ask, for instance, for someone to babysit my kids, because I'm teaching because teaching brings home money. And so there's like, this is the most important thing in the world that we all need to do, we all need to make money, because that's the society we live in. And I need to go and make that money. So I feel quite justified. There's that word again, in getting help with the kids because we've got to make that money. But then I really can struggle with the same kind of asking for help or reprioritizing things to say, like make this record because it's not bringing in the money. And I think that comes down to Yeah, like we live in a society that still doesn't value things. Paying. So I trying to really, really kind of remind myself that this is an important expression of who I am. And that's why I have to give it time, and maybe that's why I even have to give up. You know, money. Because, yeah, it's I don't know, I hate talking about money, it makes everyone feel really uncomfortable. But I think it's also really important. It's a huge part of it can be a very big barrier to making art. And, yeah, when you have a family, it can be a barrier that you put on yourself because it just doesn't feel kind of right. But I'm really sort of trying to lean into the feeling that I have that for me at the moment. It is right and it is okay. But yeah, so I think it's really interesting, I think, yeah, how what we value in this society still often comes down to like, how much money you make from it. But why not just think of all the great artists you know, like, I mean, it's such a it's such a cliched example. that Van Gogh, you know, didn't make any money and we all now know that he's just the most brilliant artist. So just trying to like remember that this art is important and to try and not feel that guilt, whether it's the financial guilt or the time away guilt, which is a big one that I tend to feel. Well, the other the other guilt that I can sometimes feel is when I'm, and I'm sure a lot of parents might relate to this is when I really go for it, like I'm diving into a really creative space, whether it's just like, oh my god, like these songs are just churning within me or like I've booked out a few days in the studio, I'm just going for it, I'm the the first thing to kind of fall apart is just all the shit at home like dishes, washing, yep, eating healthy food. And again, I think that's a very sexy thing to talk about, like it's pretty boring and unglamorous. But part of our job as parents, I guess, is to kind of keep on top of some of that stuff. And I'm very, very aware that I have a partner who does more than 50% of that stuff. So I really can't complain. Especially, you know, I speak to a lot of females with male partners and, and find out that even though it's 2022, they still seem to seem to take on a huge percentage of that, and I know that I actually don't so I'm very, very fortunate. However, yeah, I can still feel like when I'm really kind of diving into some artistic spaces, mentally or emotionally, the house just turns to absolute shit. And, and that can actually bring up a bit of guilt for me too. Like, well, we're eating takeaway again, because I don't have time to cook because I've written five songs. Yeah. Yeah, so that's just another aspect of mom guilt that I definitely feel and I try to be okay with. exists, and we just have to, like, kind of know that it exists and acknowledge it. Like, I'm feeling guilty right now. Why is that reasonable? Am I being too hard on myself? Actually, it's, it's really fine that I've done those things, and it's fine. And then, you know, the, the other thing we've got to remember is occasionally guilt is healthy, and it is telling us something. Yeah, maybe I'm feeling mom guilt, because I actually haven't spoken to my kids for days. And I need to fix that, you know, like, so actually, like, might Yeah, I just try to be aware of how I feel, and then kind of sit with it, and then work through whether it's like, you know, a feeling that I need to kind of listen to or a feeling that I can sort of go that that's just like your kind of inner critic getting pretty loud in your head. Yeah, it can really your inner critic has one or two important things to say as well. So just knowing you is unhealthy, and when it might actually be just telling you something that you better like, come on. Yeah, no, that is the fourth time this week. They've beaten junk. So maybe it's really important tomorrow to prioritize some vegetables. You know what I mean? Like, so? Absolutely. I think yeah, I think you're right, I think you can definitely serve a purpose. It's definitely not a place. Yeah. But then when it turns into this, and I, whenever I say, ma'am, you I do the air quotes, because I feel like it's just the term has been constructed by a new social media hashtag, you know, it's this theme. This this plan, and, and that's why I hate saying it, but I feel like it's when I say, Do you feel guilty? That sounds really creepy. You know? You're not really, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that guilt? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty. Can we all please feel guilty together? It's just on the women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, we'll see. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? over last year, I did a couple of Father's Day episodes, especially ones where I chatted to dads about and it's it's a different kind of guilt. Yeah, they certainly feel it. But just, I think they're not expected to feel I think that's the difference. We're the ones who are supposed to wear it. Yeah, yeah, totally. And even like, I'm, like I said before, like, we've sort of really set our lives up, in a way, you know, in our family where I guess we don't necessarily play those traditional gender roles. Like, at the moment, I work more than my husband, like an extra day, he does all the washing, because I'm really bad at it. I don't know, he's actually much better at like remembering the admin sort of stuff around, you know, our that notice needs to be handed in. And we've got to pay that, you know, I'm pretty bad at all of that. So even though I live in a relationship that has really kind of, we've really intentionally tried to not just play those roles that can fall on you, because you are male, or female or whatever. Even within that year, I think I experienced more of the emotional kind of guilt. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll ask him and find out that. Maybe, yeah, maybe. So even if within your kind of nucleus family, you've got something really going on. That's pretty kind of countercultural, or whatever. We still are in a society that puts pressure on women and mothers to do it all and be at all. Yeah. And so yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not feeling guilty about the parenting and I'm really focusing on the parenting and, you know, doing great there, then I sort of start to feel a bit guilty about, oh, I'm not really doing any art or singing. So like, it's a little. A little sometimes that's just a load of crap. Whoever said that. He was the first person that said that should just because it mean, you can't you can, I heard someone say you can do it all. But you can't do it all at the same time. You know, like you go through phases in your life where, you know, your children are young. So you're focusing on your children, then you do your art, like, you can't, you can't do it all, you physically cannot do it all and also, mentally and in your heart. You can't do it all because you're torn all over the place. You know, totally. I also think I think just the way my brain works is I'm not very good at multitasking. So I think those people like I'm really good at like, diving in deep. So if I'm so I'm writing today, I'm probably just long writing. And if I'm just like, all in with like, hey, it's my day off, and I'm going to clean the house and I'm going to cook a really nice dinner and I'm going to pick my daughter up from school and we're going to go out for a milkshake, then I'm going to do that really, really well to not very good at trying to do both of those things at once. Yeah, I've always said yeah, you can do it all if you want to do it all pretty badly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you spread yourself so thin that nothing gets done. I don't wanna say well, but to the way that you probably want it to be done. You know? Yeah. Nice myth, isn't it? It's an urban myth. So going back to your your music and your identity, how you see yourself as a mother and as a musician and an artist, is it really important to you that your children's see, and I don't want to say I'm putting it in quotes, again, that you're just a mom, because you're never just a mom, that you are contributing to the world. Your your voice is being heard what you're saying is a value. Is that something that is important to you? Yeah, I think it's extremely important to me, both of my children in very different ways, obviously, showing to me that they're very creative people. And so I we really want to nurture that in them. Like my son is an amazing writer, like really incredible writer. My daughter is a natural dancer. And actually, funnily enough, I think she's also a really good singer, too. I have to like, listen out when she doesn't know I'm hearing it. Because I'm a singer. Yeah, there's some stuff there that we'll probably have to unpack that one day because yeah, she's a really great singer. When she was really little, I'd hear her in her room, listening to music, but harmonizing Oh, what? Oh, okay. Um, but she's pretty. She's done it a bit in the past in the last few years, like, if I'm like, Hey, John is seeing this, she's actually pretty reluctant. And that's fine. Like, I'm so not gonna push that. But I think she does have some natural talent there. Anyway, they're both really creative. And I think that's so beautiful. And so I would hate to be kind of creating an environment where they don't see that that's a really normal thing that you would want to foster their dad to. He's very creative. He he like, he wouldn't call himself a professional musician, but he loves music, and he plays in the past. He hasn't done it for a while, but he used to do like, some street art. He's always building things, you know, I'll say something like, oh, we need a box to plant some daffodils in and literally the next day. He's just found some wood and made a box. So and yes, he's a good visual artist. So pink growing up. I hope seeing that art is something that nourishes you. And, and yeah, I hope I hope I'm not I hope I'm modeling to them that I really love music, I guess the one worry I have is that they might see all the stress behind it. Yeah, I think they Yeah, so I know, it's really important to me that they know that creativity in whatever way or shape, you know, like, it doesn't have to be music. But creativity is something to be that we should honor and chat and spend time on. And that doesn't have to make you money. And if you make your living, you know, my son grows up one day to be a writer, my daughter grows up Monday to be a dancer. Wow, how amazing. But that's not even what I mean. It's it's about expression and about, you know how happy they are actually, when they do those things. And actually, I think when they see me when you strip away or they're like, I'm trying to be an independent music in the world, and I'm applying for funding, and I'm very, very strict like that when they actually see me like sit at the piano and just play and just seeing this seeing me really in my most pure kind of happy state. And they see that all the time. Yeah. So. So I think I'm more I'm hope that I'm modeling to them that in whatever way it looks like for you. And it can change as you change that creativity is just a really important thing to nurture within yourself. Because I think everyone is creative. Actually. Everyone. Yeah, but not all of them have been taught that that's okay. Or it's worth fostering or looking after? Yeah, I think. And maybe this is, I think, based on my experience with some people I've met along the way that a lot of angry people I know, are people who are not allowing themselves to be very creative and switch somewhere. And they just sort of hate everyone. And I really think that if you are if you allow yourself to, you know, yeah. Be creative. However, that is. I think you just yeah, like it's a bit cliche, but you're sort of tending to your soul a little bit. And then I think you just live in the world in a more well rounded, happy away. Yeah. So yeah, put that so well. Thank you. Very important to us, actually, as a family that we yeah, we do it and therefore hopefully, they just naturally do it, too. Yeah, that's it. Like like yourself growing up in your family, you saw that that is just part of a normal, everyday existence. This is not something that's out of the ordinary. You maybe didn't realize that till later. But, you know, this is a perfectly acceptable way to live your life like you don't have to be afraid of this. Yeah. And there have been times you know, when like, the kids were little aware, I wasn't spending heaps of time on music, but I actually was always being creative. So when I wasn't making music, I was I was writing the scenes. And when I wasn't writing scenes, I was like, bought a sewing machine. And I was trying to sew think I wasn't very good. But like I was sewing. Yeah, quarter like gardening now for me is a big one, like, so it's also like music is the thing that I come back to because I think, I don't know. It's like, it's in my DNA. It's who I am. And it's how I express myself in the world. But also just there are so yeah, showing them that there's just so many ways to be creative. Yeah, they can be small. They don't have to be big. Yeah, that's it and they don't have to be for anybody else. And they don't have to be clever monetary value placed on the me that they can be something. It's something for yourself, you know, so important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Best Use of my garden and losses, concert was born? Can you share with us what you might have coming up? You mentioned about your album that you're working on? Yeah. Have you got? And also have you got? I mean, I guess shows us starting up again in the world have you got anything you want to share that you've got coming up? Oh, so that Yeah, so the big, big one for me at the moment is the album that I've been making. And it's been a really long labor of love, like I always knew it would take time. But then right in the middle of it, we had a two year pandemic, which has had so many impacts a, it has impacts on time, because you can't like get to the studio. And then the other thing, like we've talked, we've talked about money a little bit today. But one of the things I do as a singer is, you know, when I do that backing vocals gig or I go on tour with that person on BBS, or I do that session work, that all generally gets generated back into the art that I make. So I lost all of that work. So then so so it's not just the time factor has slowed the record down, but it's actually the the income coming in to generate back into it slowed down as well. So COVID has really impacted it in a really huge way. However, we're really close to finish, like we finished recording the music, we're now mixing it and mastering it. And the hope was to release it at the start of this year. And now it's like we're going to release it towards the end of this year. And again, like you can have a plan. I don't know, I'm actually feeling really good about that. Now, I'd like you to have said right at the start, like, you've got time, you don't need to rush. Yeah. And I, I had a bit of an opportunity last year where I did something on TV. And so I was like, right, I've got to release it now because I got to ride that wave I'm gonna work out and I was like, Oh, I really disheartened by that. But in hindsight, it would have been rushed. And it actually wouldn't have been very good. And, and now I feel really good about sort of almost mapping out, you know, I don't know, like a six month plan and, you know, sharing the music, my music with the world really well and properly. So I don't have any gigs booked at the moment, because I'm super focused on the album. And what like, you know, as much as I hate to say it, social media plays a really big role in building my audience. So like, if anyone listening to this wants to follow me on the socials that would really be amazing. Or even sign up to my mailing list. Yeah, yeah, definitely put all the links, I'll put all the links in for people there. Cool. That would be really great. You know, that is sort of these days, I guess how we reach to a certain extent, at least, our audience, and of course, I would like to be gigging again. But I'm also really pacing myself, I want to do things well. Yeah. I don't want to just be throwing things together and quickly hopping back on stage. So we yeah, we will definitely be playing some shows when the album comes out, or there's single release or whatever. But yeah, choosing to take my time choosing to remember. Yeah, that I've got time. Yeah, that's what I think I think we can all take something from that, that it's, you know, we have got time. We don't have to rush. It's not a race and not to do things at our own pace. Yeah, totally. And obviously, the flip side to that is like, sometimes you need to give yourself a deadline. Otherwise, maybe I'll just be doing this for the next 10 years. So I know the deadline for me is by the end of this year, but what that looks like I still don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing and yeah, maybe yeah, if people find me on social media, then yeah, if a gig pops up, and sometimes I'm doing gigs for other people, you know, like, I might be backing vocals for someone and I can share that as well. Yeah, but at the moment, I'm actually yeah, just tucked away doing all the behind the scenes work. Yeah, all the really hard work. Oh, my God, I know, right? Jumping on stage at the NCAA. Put me in front of like 1000 people or 2000 people and tell me to sing no problem. Put me in a room with like two people where I'm like asking for funding and I'll be days before Yeah. And that's the thing too, like, unless you're in that musician, where Old, or even the artists will, all you see is that in result, all we see is that in product, so you don't understand all the stuff that goes in behind the scenes to make that product, you know? True and like, you know, I think I think I read it somewhere that way, often comparing our kind of, like, we know what we're doing behind the scenes. So we know how hard it is and how messy it is and how not not ready it is yet we can get that to like what everyone else's end product that they're showing online is, and I think it's we're gonna do that too. Like, eventually, when I released this album, it's probably going to look quite nice and shiny and like, hey, look, but like, yeah, we're hearing the journey, you know, to the destination of others. And that's not a very smart thing to do. Probably not very helpful. Your, your album journey sounds like mine, mine is just taking forever. And I don't care because I hate sitting. I hate setting deadlines, because I hate that pressure. Because you know, life happens and you have children. And you know, you can't just go by, I have to do this for my 14 year old having a breakdown, like Italy's life, and it's so good. So I'm working with these producers who are overseas, and they just only because we have nothing here and that Gambia we don't have access to any sort of recording studios or anything. And again, I'm not going to tell you I know this is the world now. You know, it's amazing. And sorry, I'm just gonna blog for a sec. But yeah, they're in Spain and Argentina. So I basically send them a video of what I want, I bang out the chords on my old Casio and say, this is the idea I've got, then they send back their idea made on computer instruments. And always I say yes, that's amazing, because it always is. And so then they, they organize the musicians to play it properly. Then they send it back and I do my vocals and then they mix it. So they're doing everything apart from mastering it. So it's just like, and I can just sit here in my little room in the middle of nowhere. And this album and I'm, it's so wonderful. I think, you know, there's so much stuff around technology that can bother me and just, and then I hear a story like that. And I'm so excited. I'm like, that's now a possibility. You're working with producers saying, you know, and me years ago, to know that this was coming that this was possible, I would never have believed it. You know, I always had this idea that I live in this little town. I didn't I never wanted to leave my little town because I love it. You know, I was born here. I've got my kids here. Even Adelaide, it's only five hours away, or Melbourne five hours away. But it's a different world. So I've never wanted to pick up and go right, I'm gonna go there and make my career. It's like, No, I want to do it in my, in my own terms in my own way. And it's like, finally the time has come. I can do it. You know. I love that. Yeah. bloom where you're planted, you know? Yes. You know, other people might have a completely different, you know, they do want to move and they want. And that's great. But I agree like, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to. That's the cool thing about being an artist. You can forge your own way. There's actually no real like, we think there's a way you've got to do it. But then when you start to talk people, everyone's winging it. Yeah. That's for some people that's moving overseas for other people. It's so not that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really exciting. Well, I can't wait to hear it. You'll be waiting a bit longer. I know these things take time. Okay, with that, I think yeah, and that's thing too, if you if you're the sort of person that can be settled and go, Okay, when it's ready, that's fine. You can you can do this. But if you're the sort of person it's like, I have to do I have to get done. You could not do this. You'd be off to wherever to record but you know, that's the great thing, too. We're all so different. And that's what makes the world go yeah, we're all doing the same thing. Today, Ms. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. I really loved it. Thank you so much. You're so lovely to talk to me about music and I love talking about my kids. So it's a pretty it's a pretty nice thing to do to sit down and have a chat with you. Yeah, no, thanks. It's been great. I've loved it. Always good. Always good to get a bit of Beatles chat in there somewhere. Anytime, Ill have to tell you my Paul McCartney story another time. Oh, okay. All right, To be continued. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review Are you following or subscribing to the podcast? Or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested? If you or someone you know who'd like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Kate King US counsellor + art therapist S2 Ep60 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Kate King, a licensed professional counsellor and a certified art therapist, and a mom of of 2 based in Boulder Colorado. USA Kate grew up with a lot of art around her, her grandmother was always very creative as were her parents, her dad was a stone sculptor. Her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketch books that she would always carry around with her. Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already before knowing what it really was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver where Kate graduated with a dual Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Art. It wasn't until she completed College that she googled what to do with these studies and found art therapy. From there Kate eagerly pursued post-graduate education at Naropa University (a Buddhist-inspired school in Boulder, CO) where she earned a Master’s Degree in Transpersonal Counselling Psychology and Art Therapy. Kate is a Licensed Professional Counsellor and Board Certified and Registered Art Therapist. Her private practice is a colourful, creative, cozy space located in the Ken Caryl area of Littleton, Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, The Radiant Life Project , Kate offers a holistic, preventive health perspective which incorporates verbal, creative, and body-centred therapy skills and techniques. She operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path, and re-creating their story along the way. Kate began writing her book The Authentic Mother - Creative Art Engagement to Support the New Parent when her son was 3 months old, as she was unable to find a book that could help her in the creative way she was seeking. Kate has also created a set of oracle cards, The Ink & Wings Oracle Deck , and I was fortunate enough to receive a reading from Kate in this podcast! If you are interested you can take a look at the cards she drew for me here Connect with Kate website / instagram / facebook / youtube Connect with the podcast - website / instagram *** This episode contains discussion around mental health, anxiety, post natal depression and birth trauma. *** If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Kate King. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and a certified Art Therapist, as well as being a mom of two based in Boulder, Colorado in the United States. Kate grew up with a lot of art around her. Her grandmother was always very creative, as were her parents. Her dad was a stone sculptor, her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketchbooks that she would always carry around with her. And Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already, before really knowing what it was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver, where Kate graduated with a dual bachelor's degree in psychology and art. It wasn't until she completed college that she Googled what to do with these two modalities and found art therapy. From there, Kate eagerly pursued postgraduate education at Naropa University, a Buddhist inspired school in Boulder, Colorado, where she earned a master's degree in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and board certified and registered art therapist. Her private practice is a colorful, creative and cozy space located in the ken Carroll area of Littleton in Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, the Radiant Life Project, Kate offers a holistic preventative health perspective, which incorporates verbal, creative and body centered therapy skills and techniques. Kate operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path and recreating their story along the way. If today's episode is triggering for you at all, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I have compiled a list of great international resources on my website, Alison newman.net/podcast. This episode contains discussions around mental health, anxiety, postnatal depression and birth trauma. The music used on today's episode is from my new age, Ambient Music trio called LM Joe and is used with permission. Lm j is myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for being a part of this. It's really it's lovely to meet you. It's lovely to meet you. I'm grateful to be here. Yeah. So whereabouts are you in the US? I am in Denver, Colorado. Yeah, right. That's pretty nice there, isn't it? It's beautiful. And very close to the infamous Red Rocks. concert venue. So I don't know if you've heard of that. But it's really pretty place. Yeah, right. So what time of year is over there now? You're in your summer, aren't you? Yes. This is the hottest time of the summer for us. Yeah, right. So jealous of where you are. I would love to be winter right now. Don't be jealous. It's horrible. Here. It is just fair. I just, we've just come back from a week up in Queensland where it's like nicer. Because it's just so gray. Like I can deal with cold but I just can't deal with lack of sunshine. Like it's just just gray. And it just makes me annoyed. And yeah, you're like in Colorado. We have like 300 days of sunshine here. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Don't tempt me. That sounds really. Maybe it's time for a vacation. Yeah, I've actually never been to America. So there you go. And I've never been Where You Live either so I would love to visit. Australia is pretty good. A lot Australia. Yes, I've heard beautiful things you after your name, you've got lots of letters. Can you just just tell us what, what you what you do? Yes. So the M A is representative of my master's degree, which is in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Transpersonal Counseling Psychology is a form of psychology that considers where the psyche and the spirit meet. And so there's a lot of influences around spirituality and just kind of open mindedness and open heartedness into different traditions and modalities. So that's the MA, the LPC is my Licensed Professional Counselor certification. So that's my therapy license here in the state of Colorado. And the ATR since I wrote this book, actually, I have a new credential now it's ATR dash BC, which stands for board certified registered art therapist. And so that's a art therapy designation. Excellent. So going right back to the beginning, I guess, how did you first get interested in? Was it the art that came first? Or sort of the thinking about people? Like how did you sort of get drawn into this sort of area? Yeah, it was the art. My my family is sort of creative at the roots. My grandmother was always very creative. My dad is a stone sculptor. And so I had a lot of art surrounding me growing up, and my family really supported just expressing that way. And I used to have these black sketchbooks that I just would fill with drawings, I would carry these with me everywhere I went, I had bookshelves filled with them. And, you know, they were, I wouldn't go anywhere with them. They were always with me. And so I think I was doing art therapy on myself before I knew what it was. It wasn't until I was about to graduate from college. And I had a Bachelors of Arts Degree and a psychology degree in a double bachelor's focus that I was like, What do I do with my life? And I actually Googled, what do you do with an art degree and a psychology degree? And that's how I first learned about art therapy from Google. Yeah. And then did you sort of go, this feels very familiar to me, like, Was it something that just sat naturally with you anyway? Yes, it resonated so strongly that I just, I stopped really looking and I just started looking for a graduate program where I could really studied what I wanted to study. And I ended up at a school here in Colorado called Naropa University that was founded by a Buddhist monk. And it has a strong background of meditation and different kinds of spiritual practices. And so the coming together of science and spirituality and creativity and psychology, it was just like, everything that I was interested in. Yeah, that sounds amazing. I didn't actually know that places like that existed. That is really cool. It is very cool. I did not know either, until I plugged them into Google. So for people who aren't familiar, how would you describe art therapy? Art Therapy is it's a form of, there's actually two different schools of art therapy. One is considered art as therapy, which is that the art is inherently healing, and you don't really need to talk about it, do anything, you know, just creating heals things within us because it helps us to sublimate or move the energy through our body and out from us in a way that's productive. And the other school of art therapy is art as psychotherapy, which is more of what I do in my private practice where I would provide specific directives, kind of projects for people that are designed with the intention of helping them investigate what's going on in their lives and have sort of a visual representation of that, rather than just the talking that we normally do in therapy, which can so often, kind of people can Avoid talking about certain things, or they can hide information from themselves from their therapists that way. But art therapy is just a really gentle kind of backdoor into the psyche that allows you to work through the metaphor of color, and line and shape and image. So you see what you're ready to see in your art. And the art therapist can sort of gently reflect like, wow, it looks like you only used you know the color blue today, what does blue mean to you? And then we can sort of have a collaborative dialogue about what this symbology looks like in your life and how your art can be kind of a roadmap for your psyche? Hmm. Do you find then that people that what actually comes out of people is often it's it's things that you can't put words to generally, because it's so deep, maybe people don't even realize what they're bringing out of themselves? If that makes sense. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, people, they don't know, they don't expect the art to move through them in the way it does. But usually, once they do create something, it's easier to talk about it because it already exists in some form. Now that they've made it, it doesn't feel so pent up. And sometimes talking about things through metaphor just feels a lot safer. Instead of someone talking about their trauma, they can talk about the, you know, the lightning bolts that are in their imagery, and that holds the kind of energy of that trauma without it feeling so triggering that it shuts them down. Hmm. Yeah. So it's a really good way for people to communicate without feeling. I don't know, scared, I suppose that. Yeah, wonderful. It's like a natural titration process where they can, they can kind of go as deep or as as intensive as they want to go. And they don't have to do anything they don't want to do their art kind of helps to guide their comfort. Yeah, yeah, that is really cool. Because I've had my fair share of, of therapy over the years, but I've never done art therapy. And it's sort of a kind of wonder, it's just to see what happens. Especially as a creative person, I'm surprised that surprise, you wouldn't do that. Although, you know, you don't have to be a creative person to benefit from art therapy, I actually, I really enjoy seeing people come to art therapy, who have no art background at all, because they don't have any picture in their mind for making something beautiful or frameable. It's just expression for the sake of expression. And sometimes that takes a lot of pressure off. So for people who are already artists, sometimes we need to move through the layers of like, releasing some of the pressure. And so I'll have them make art with their nondominant hand or with their eyes closed, things like that, so that they don't have that pressure to make something beautiful. Sometimes you need to make something messy or ugly. Yeah, cuz that's the thing is in a restaurant, you're not really addressing the issues. I mean, you're showing new issues, I suppose the the lack of letting go and control and the pressure that you feel and the expectation, whatever. But yeah, perhaps not then allowing you to go into that next layer of what you kind of might need to work through, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. But it's all it's all good work. And I think whatever is ready to be worked on comes up in this session. And so we don't really have to dig too deep. It just shows up, because ultimately, our systems want to heal. Yeah, I've heard that actually like that, that I can't, I don't know how to describe it. But it's like your, your inner, whatever that is, knows where it's supposed to be. And it will do what it needs to do to try and get you there. But then the humaneness of us and the ego stops us from getting there. Right, exactly, yeah, we get in our own way, a lot of the time. Art is a really great way to help to sort of release some of those narratives and just let you connect with the part of you that knows what you need to heal and express and grow. Yeah. Coming back to your own art, what sort of style or is there a way you can describe like the mediums you like working with what what's sort of your art? Yeah, so my art has sort of changed over time. It's interesting. As an art therapist, I know now that the different kinds of art I made over time were reflective of how healed I was in my own psycho emotional process. So what I do now is I love watercolor and goulash like a like the pigmented like the tubes of watercolor, not the palette necessarily because I like it when it's really vibrant. And I also like to draw I like a lot of detail and I love just black rollerball pens, and then sort of working with them together with watercolor can be interesting. But in the beginning for the longest time, most of my life, I it was just black and white, really intense, patterned, organized drawings. And I now know that that was my way of containment and of kind of holding myself together. And as I went through my own therapeutic journey, I was able to explore more with, you know, watercolor that drips and bleeds and it's less than control. I also really liked colored pencil, just colors really vibrant colors are important to me. And lately, I've been drawing a lot of imagery about goddesses and the divine feminine and sort of the celestial. I have pictures with like a goddess with horns and wings and a sun, you know, solar systems. So it gets a little magical for me. Oh, that's so cool. It's interesting, isn't it, there's probably people out there now thinking, they're thinking about the stuff that they make, that they're starving, they're thinking, Oh, I wonder what that means. Like, we can, we can draw so much from what we're doing. And it's interesting, you say how it changes like I, I have times when and this is just me personally, and I'm sure there's people, you know, we change all the time. But there's some days I really like to draw, and I can't draw like I'm not a draw at all. But I love coloring and I love the sound that it makes. And it makes me feel really grounded. Almost like I have an urge to write in lead pencil like that kind of feeling where I don't know back to the earth where you know, it's I don't know how to describe it anyway. And then other days, like the watercolor, you happy to let things just wish wash everywhere and you don't mind if something dripped somewhere? Or well, maybe then you do. And then you go, Oh, actually, no, I don't want to do this today, I need something that's going to stay more I want it to stay. So we sort of change, even, you know, day to day of what we're using, based on how we're feeling and what we're going through, I suppose. Yes, the materials can mirror what we're feeling. And they can also be used to sort of like nudge us when we're ready for growth. So a really controlled person, when they're stable and resourced. Watercolor would be great for them, because it would sort of push them to become more comfortable with less control. And when you practice that with art, your brain starts to become more familiar with that. And then it's more likely to repeat that in other areas of your life that are not art, like maybe your relationships, you don't have as much control. And you're more okay with that. So it kind of pairs well with all of life. Yeah, that just reminded me of a lady I had on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, Fiona Valentine, and she's in Australia. And her and her husband do classes for businesses, like groups of employees, who want to try and extend their creativity. So they, they get them to draw, and it's something that's achievable. So it's not going to make people feel like alienated that they can do it. And then when they realize that they can actually draw, then it changes those neural pathways. And then like you say, it flows over to the other parts of their life. So the idea is that then it might help them in their work to think differently, or, you know, see things in a different way, I suppose. So it's absolutely a thing, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, our brains are really malleable. And so if we can find some mechanism that helps to teach our brains to think differently, it affects our whole life, it has a ripple effect that reaches really far. Now, I want to start talking about some of the things you've created. And I'm gonna start about your book fairs, which you've kindly sent me a copy of thank you so much. It's called the authentic mother, creative art engagement to support the new parent and I have read through this and it is sensational. It is really, really, like I was blown away. I really, I wish we shouldn't say things like this, but I wish I had had this when I had my first child because I think it would have made a massive difference to my mental wellness and my journey through mental illness. Can you see We've asked what the sort of impetus was to create it and telling us in your own words, rather than me, telling people what it is to share, share what it is all about. Yes, absolutely. And thank you so much for your kind words, it really, it really is a labor of love. So, I wrote this book in the very beginning stages of my motherhood journey, after I had my first child, probably when he was, I don't know, maybe three months old, I started writing it because I needed a book. And because I was feeling really, like, shocked and lost and overwhelmed by motherhood, because it was not the beautiful picture that everyone said it would be. The birth was totally traumatic, like it was very, very challenging. And so I kept trying to find a support resource. And everything I looked for it was either kind of shaming or not really validating for the truth, it really didn't give a lot of creative support, which was very important to me at that time. And so I just started to journal and write about my experience. And one day when I was journaling about it, I had left it on my computer, and a friend of mine came over. And she saw it, and she's like, What is this? And I told her and she was like, Kate, you have to publish this. This is what so many moms need. And I'm like, no, nobody wants to read this. And so ultimately, that was the beginning. And she said, Yes, moms need this, for sure. And so because it's an art therapy book, it talks a little bit about the neuroscience and kind of the psychological aspects of what happens in the brain in the body when we become mothers, fathers when we all go through this, but it felt important to have real artwork in it. And so I sent out a beacon to moms and I ended up getting over 35 Real moms who don't identify as artists. And they I sent them the directives that I write about in the book. And they made art for the book. And so I have real, real pieces of artwork for the projects and directives that I've designed to help support moms, dads, just new parents, as they're navigating everything from body image stuff to mental health challenges to issues with your family and your in laws and boundaries, cultural expectations. So it's a really wide variety of directives. And the intention here is really just to support that the motherhood experience is very vast and broad and unique for everyone. And it's important that we have a creative outlet for that, so that we don't spiral down to a place where we feel isolated, and things get worse. So literally, that was this book is what helped you and stopped you from doing just that. Man, thank you for sharing it with the world. That fringe, whoever you are, thank you. Because it is so valuable. It's I don't know, I, I, when I was flipping through it, I just kept thinking, I wish I'd known this, I wish I thought like this, I wish I'd had, I wish like literally I wish I had it would have even with my second child when I was seven years older, I had more experience in the world, I was now working in childcare. So I physically knew how to take care of a child. And I kept telling myself, it's not going to be the same, it's gonna be totally different, you know, for all these, whatever reasons, and my personnel depression was far worse than it ever was when my first child. So the talk that like, and you're saying, Hey, you talk about I guess, what's the word, the jargon? I don't know if that's the right word, but of your background, you know, the the psychology behind things, and you know, the neural pathways and what have you. But that's not overwhelming. It's not like you pick it up and you feel alienated by the words, if you know what I mean. Anyone can pick it up without having any understanding or any background or knowledge in that field. So that's really good. So you don't feel you know, you're already going through enough as a new mother. Like, I don't know this, and I don't know that. But you pick this up and it feels familiar. Which is lovely. It's like, if I'm getting really sloppy now but it literally it feels like you're right here next to me if you know what I mean. Like it feels like you're right here. So I'm getting really emotional. Really does it really feels like that and, and I love that you call it the authentic mother because it's you know, because we have all these, you know, versions of what a mom's supposed to be and the good mom and the bad mom and you're not doing this you're not doing that and you're not doing it right. It's like Get rid of all of that those labels, and you go back to who you are, in your core. You're this child's mother and how to sort of look after yourself and keep yourself well. Sorry, that was really blurry. I appreciate it. No, I It really warms my heart that the book has touched you because that was, that was what I so needed. And that was my intention. I wanted people to feel with this book, like they were talking to a friend. And I wanted it to feel accessible to people who wanted to kind of understand what was going on with them, but didn't have the psychology background. So I'm happy to hear that it doesn't feel dense and jargony accessible to you. Because that's, that was my intention. Now, it's lovely. Sorry, I've just raved on so much. But honestly, I just even as I'm sort of thinking that because I want I want to do this stuff in it, I want to use it in a way. I'm not gonna have any more children. But I feel like I could benefit from doing the the exercises and like you said, the directives in here, thinking it from looking at through another lens, perhaps as other issues going on in my life. So Oh, yes, all of legally. All of these directives are applicable outside of early motherhood as well. I mean, I couldn't really honestly flip to any of them. I just flipped to one that was about just creating this called the insecurity image. It's on page 138. And this is just about creating imagery about what you feel insecure about. A new mom to feel insecure. This could be about your workplace, your relationship, your your new gray hairs, like I don't know, it could be about anything. Yeah, let's see, I've just got glasses. I don't want to wear them. Yeah, so any of these are applicable inside of motherhood, outside of motherhood in groups. I've done a lot of these directives with my friends. I've done them with my husband. I've even done them with children because they're really fun. Yeah. So there you go, everyone, even if you're not having another child, you can definitely gain something from this. And something else you you've got that you've made, which you just shared with me before we went live is your I don't want to come to do a column tarot cards, or you call them Oracle Card, Oracle Card. Sorry, yeah, this is the ink and wings, Oracle deck, because you know, my art is magical. And it includes wings. So there you have it. So this is a deck of cards that is comprised of my artwork. And it is very, sort of spiritually rich, and it helps with insight and just gaining navigation for your for your life. I I pull cards almost every day and my kids love it. We pull cards for what you know what's gonna happen today, or what do I need to focus on right now? And it seems like it's always really spot on. I love doing my cards. I often do them overnight when about when I'm about to fall asleep. And I'll do the three card spreads. I will do like the past, present or future. And then other times just there'll be another card that's like poking its head out and like okay, yes, you obviously need to tell me something. And then I've just end up with like, all these. Oh, just one more, just one more. But yeah, I love them. We might. We might talk about them a bit later and possibly do a reading if you're up for that. Oh, yes. I would love to do a reading. That will be a first for the podcast to no one's ever done. I love it. It's always so fun when I do those because I'm like, is this gonna work? And then usually it kind of does. So we'll see if it works. We'll test it out. All right. Ready? Now you mentioned one of your children there when you said he was sorry, he or she I'm not sure was three months old when you started writing the book. Can you share a little bit more about your children? Yes. So my son is named Bridger. And he's nine. So he in this book are about the same age. I birthed them at the same time at the same time they birth myself as a new mom. So I have Bridger who's nine and I have Heidi who is six, and no more babies for me because my hands are so full with those. I can relate to that. So you said you you share your sort of experience with the oracle cards, you're obviously quite sort of open and communicative with the children and share a lot of your things you enjoy, I suppose. Are they into do some art. They do the artwork as well? Yes, yeah, we have set up a designated art space in our home. And so sometimes when it's a weekend and we have some extra time we get Really excited about having our time together. And I had a teacher in graduate school in my art therapy program that always said, you have to lay out your art materials like like you're in a candy store, so that they all just look so enticing, that you just can't wait to dive in. And so we keep our room like that in our home where everything has its place, and it's colorful, and the boxes are open, and you can see what's inside. So the kids will just go into the art space with me, and some days will paint some days will make a big mess, some days will, you know, be very, very tidy and neat. And we'll do collage, we'll do everything. And it is such amazing bonding time. Even my husband will join us sometimes. And he I don't think he identifies as being very creative. But I think he really enjoys it when he's there. What not what I would read it, yeah, and you just kind of get lost in the art process. And we do have, at the end of every year, we have a family vision board kind of ritual where we all go through collages and create imagery about what we want to bring into the next year. And so that has become something my husband has really enjoyed. And he actually invited his father to join us a couple of those years. And it was so fun just having the whole family make vision boards. And then you put up all our vision boards. And it's interesting to see what everyone wants that's similar or different and how they overlap and how they kind of coordinate. So when you had your daughter, then I don't want to say you breeze through it. But did you find it easier because you have those tools and you knew what you needed to do to incorporate your art to help you manage the transition to have? I think it was easier for me? Yes, I think having the tools was a big a big deal. And it really supported me. And also, I think it also helped me that I had already sort of stretched my life around one baby. And so I felt like, you know, there's no, there's no selfishness left, like might as well throw another one in here. While we're while we're the bottomless pit of caregiving. Yes, but it definitely was interesting to have art. When I had my daughter, my son was two and a half. And so he was active in the art process. So we would be able to make art together at that period, which was really a kind of neat thing. So that when the baby was, you know, nursing or sleeping, I had something to do with my son that actually benefited both of us. That's really important, isn't it? Because I feel like a lot of the time, pardon me, the the first child, depending on their age can sort of feel a little bit shafted, like there's a new baby here. And now I'm number two, and I don't like this, and then you can see the sort of perhaps some changes in behavior, you might not like putting it that way. But yeah, to be able to do that you keep your relationship really strong with him. And I guess to its, it allows him to realize that this new little person isn't a threat to him. So he's might be more anonymous and more accepting. But maybe I don't know, it sort of helps all of the three of you together to create, you know, a little unit as a three rather than a, it's me, it's mum time, or it's not my mom time, you know that that conflict? Right? Yes, the art can be sort of like a joining force. That's a really good word. Yes. That's really good word. I like that. I'm going to take that quote. Yes, go for it. I also think it's good with when when babies are around moms who are creative, then creativity is a normal part of life. And so it feels more accessible to the kids. It's like, if you grow up, you know, eating vegetables, then vegetables are just normal and you just eat them, right? It's the same thing with creativity and moms get to model that by their own creative process and the inclusion of their kids through that and sort of joining. Absolutely. And I think then as you as the kids get older, perhaps then realizing, seeing that deeper meaning behind the art, like sneaking into that art therapy sort of realm that it's not, I'm not just making marks on the paper. I'm not just painting I'm actually using this as a tool in my life, which is Powerful to give kids from a young age, isn't that, right? Because we all have this tool, even the people who identify as non creative, we are all creative if we tap into it, and if we allow ourselves to be and it's, it can be completely free, you can go make art with nature, it does not have to be expensive, it does not have to cost really anything. And so I think it's accessible. And a lot of us just forget, or a lot of people are really traumatized by their kindergarten art teachers. So I get a lot of clients who come in and they're like, I am not an artist, I'm not artistic. My kindergarten art teacher told me that I'm bad at art. So I haven't made art since. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's time for a corrective experience. Because art is about being expressive. It's about making, it's not about the end product. Yes, I'm really glad you said that, actually. Because as you were starting that conversation there, something came into my head and what you just said to completely confirmed it. I come from a background of working in childcare, I was in childcare for nine years. And our center had this really big philosophy about, we had this art room that was available all the time to any child of any age, or like the candy store, like everything was there, you could pick what you wanted to. And you didn't have to have an idea of what you're going to make before you went in, which I think is really important, because I think some people can be like, to the children. Now what are you going to make, it's like, well, you don't really no till you there and you're experimenting and experiencing, then something might come out. But then a lot of kindergartens and I know a lot of like early, maybe reception in new ones, teachers would have just like a cut out like a printed stencil, each child will get the exact same picture, maybe just say it's Christmas time and everyone's got to make a Christmas tree. And it all has to be green. And it all has to have the same things on it. And it all has to be folded the same way. And we used to have this poster up in our staff room, and it was like a picture of a child created a painting of whatever. And then it had this, you know, repetitive, exactly the same image. And it said, This is art, this isn't and it sort of helps you realize that it's not about the end product, it's not about having that whatever looking tree to give to Mum and Dad, it's about, you know, I always valued like you can see behind me, you might not be able to cause the sun, but I've got I put most of my kids paintings around the room. And a lot of them are just I have no idea what they are. Or they might be just some whatever's on a page, but I love them and I value them so much more than I value, you know, that stencil carbon copy, because I know that they haven't done that. That's the teacher's intention is to make everybody make the same thing. And I just think it's damaging to the little imaginations that want to run wild and be magical and be inventive. And maybe your tree has horns, maybe it's purple, maybe it has six trunks, you know, we need to be able to have that expressive freedom. Yeah, maybe it's not actually a tree, maybe it's a rocket ship. Or, again, if it was my chart, if you like you're picking up. Right. Right. And, and having a place where they can have, you know, the sky be the limit to their creative ability and capacity is so valuable for kids. Absolutely. And I think I've spoken about this with a lot of moms is that fear that we can have about and probably coming from our sort of, perhaps issues with control and having things done. Right and not having mess is it's really can be really challenging to set your children up with with paints and sit there and not freak out because it's going everywhere. And it's on them. And it might not be on the paper that can be quite challenging for for moms to get over as well. Yes, I think I tell moms who have that, that kind of issue with the messiness piece to go outside and make art in the grass or to have a designated set of clothing. That's art making clothing that we just don't worry about, or to put down a giant piece of tarp or a sheet that you don't care about so that you really you can let go of that. But it's also valuable for the mom to notice that that kind of anxiety around the mess, and to do her work around that too, because the art is actually helping her to see an area where she still needs healing. And so the art therapy is happening for her even if she's not the artist, she's the witness. But she she has a thing revealed. So it's notation back into herself. Hmm, that is so true, isn't it? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Two topics that I love to sort of delve into with my guests on this show. One is identity. And we've spoken briefly about that, but we'll talk about it more. And the other thing is mum guilt. How do you feel about that? I think mom guilt is a real thing. And I think most if not all, moms feel it. And I love that it is something that's out in the open as a real thing. So that it takes the shame out of it, if possible. And if you can name your experience of having mom guilt, I think just the power of naming it takes some of the charge out of it. But yeah, I think we, I mean, I think you're in a different culture than I am. But I think collectively, many cultures on our globe have these sort of predetermined rules and expectations and structures that mothers are supposed to fit into. And it really does us a disservice. Because it doesn't allow us to be who we are. And so that's a big reason why my jam is authenticity. Because I really, I want to see what, what is real for people. And if someone is inundated with guilt, about working a lot, or not working a lot, or not being creative or not lending baby food in their home, blender, whatever. I think it's really important that they not avoid that, and that they actually say, Gosh, I feel really ashamed and guilty that I'm feeding my kid food from a pouch instead of you know, homemade. And what's that about? Right? It's another example of how we can kind of turn the arrow back at ourselves, and really invite ourselves into inner work around. What is this guilt? What is it reflecting about me? Where did it come from? Maybe it's even a lineage pattern that has been alive for generations in my own family. And how many women in my family felt unsupported as mothers? I don't know, because they didn't talk about it until maybe this generation. That's so true, isn't it? And I feel like because we're all talking about it, it takes the sting out of it a bit. You don't have to feel guilty for feeling guilty. You know, for one of a better description, it's, you know, it exists. I hate it. I think it's a load of, I hate it so much. I wish it didn't exist, but and I think that's why I like talking about it, because the more we talk about it, you know, like I said, it, it takes a feel like it takes the power out of it. Because once it's named, it's almost like I don't know, I'm trying, I had this thought come through my head, like, you know, like, if it's a monster, it doesn't exist, but it scares you. But then you discover that it exists. And then you realize it's actually doesn't have power over you. I don't know, that's a really long pole to try. And I've been watching a lot of Avengers lately. Like you said it, you'd name it, you own it, and then you can do the work on and it doesn't hold that control power fear over you because you like facing it head on and, and doing something about it. Yes, I think even though so many moms are now talking about mom guilt in a way that's really supportive and compassionate, there still is a huge part of the world that isn't talking about it. And that's laying those old narratives on motherhood. So I think it's really important for moms to find their people who can support them, and who can align with the type of authenticity that lets you feel guilty and supports you in your guilt and helps you to not feel alone and to work through it. Because if you're an authentic person, in an inauthentic system, it's gonna feel really invalidating and it's gonna, it's gonna crush you in you're not going to continue to express that because it's, it's not being validated. You just have to feel like you're pushed down. Yeah, that's really important. Isn't it about finding, finding the people that share your views? And have that, again, that authenticity? It's keep coming back to that word, but it's so true, isn't it? Yes. And I think there's a lot there about aligned relationships. You know, people like the buzzwords like toxic relationships, or that person's a narcissist or whatever. But if you just take all the labels away, and it's just about alignment or misalignment, you know, it doesn't make anyone bad or wrong. It just makes them misaligned with you. So then you go find your people who you can be more aligned with so that you have that congruence. See and that feeling of resonance when you're with people who actually see you and support you for who you are not for some charade that you're pretending to uphold. Yeah. Pardon me? That is That is so true. What sort of role do you feel like social media has to play in all this sort of guilt driving and judgment sort of thing? I think it's kind of the both sides of the coin, I think you can find that support and that authenticity. I think there's people like you and like me who are on social media trying to spread this compassion and this authenticity. And I think you can easily get down the rabbit hole of really narrow minded, rigid thinking that is related to old narratives and a lot of guilt and shame. So I think you have to be discerning with social media. Yeah, it's that same thing, as in real life is in finding those people, finding your tribe, and following the people that you don't allied with. Right, yeah. And I also think it's important to remember that what you see on social media isn't always the truth. It's hardly ever the truth. So it's everyone that you see on social media is smiling with their new baby, and they look so happy. I think it's important to remind yourself like, maybe that's partially true. But what am I not seeing about what's hard for this person, and just know that the snapshots on Facebook or Instagram are just snapshots there, they don't have depth of reality. And if you want more depth of reality, find real live humans to go spend time with instead of social media feeds. Yeah, that's really, really good advice. Because there are a lot of rabbit holes to fall down into, on social media. I find in terms of unfollowing, I'll go through phases where I felt I'll be on a different sort of tracks or follow a lot of people in that sort of area. And then all of a sudden, one day, I'll just go, Ah, no, I don't want that anymore. And I will just go through and unfollow, unfollow, and then another day, I'll find something. It's really interesting how you like, depending how your thoughts have evolved, you know, maybe you've been surrounding yourself with people that have allowed you to see things in a different way or opens your mind to a different way of thinking and then you go, Oh, actually, that stuff doesn't feel right anymore. You know, it's there's nothing wrong with doing that. Yes, that's clearing, right? So when we grow and we learn new things, we see the world through a new way, we naturally need to let go of what no longer aligns, so that we can create space for what does align, because you can't just fill yourself and your social media feed endlessly, you have to clear to let in. I once heard, I've had a few readings with psychic mediums over the years. And one of my favorites, he told me, you only have a certain amount of room in your backpack. So you know, you have to take out things sometimes to be able to fit those new things in. So I sort of use that sort of visual analogy that, you know, you can only carry so much. I love that. And it's important to be discerning. Yeah, absolutely. The other topic about identity and you touched on it. When you were talking about writing your book when your son was three months old. Let's just talk about that a bit more. So that shift that we go through. And I everyone feels this differently, too, which is awesome. Which, you know, we talked about earlier, everyone's motherhood journey is so different. Personally, the feelings you were feeling, can you sort of share a bit more about that? About what felt hard at that time? Yeah. And I guess about how, if you felt like, you know, your previous say, your previous self, you're still the same person. But, you know, you were changing into this, this mother role. How that sort of felt that transition? Oh, yes. Well, I think what made it so hard was that it was so abrupt that you know, during pregnancy, I was so happy. I loved with both of my pregnancies. It felt like an immensely spiritual experience. I felt like a vessel I felt like oh my gosh, like if the aliens could see how we make people they would be amazed. It's just so it's incredible. So even when I felt nauseous or, you know, when I was 30 pounds heavier than I was used to being, I was like, This is amazing. Yeah, I had such a great experience. And then, right at the end of my pregnancy with my son with my firstborn, our midwife found out that he was breech. And they were like, Oh, well, we're gonna have to flip this baby. And I'm like, what is that a thing. And so I tend to get very urgent about, like, when something is abnormal, medically, I just have my own anxiety triggers around health and medical stuff. And so I was like, Okay, we gotta flip this baby. And it pregnancy stopped being enjoyable, and it started feeling stressful. And I kid you not, I read somewhere that I was supposed to do a handstand and go upside down in a swimming pool to turn my baby. So if you can imagine someone at eight months pregnant, like trying to do a handstand, in the swimming pool, in like, community swimming pool with all of these people, it was humiliating. But I was so committed, I'm like, You're gonna turn this baby. Like, it didn't work, you know, it's such a silly thing. And so I tried that I did Chinese Chinese medicine called moxibustion. And I was, it's like this little, like a charcoal lit charcoal thing that you put close to a chakra. And it energetically is supposed to help, whatever it didn't do it. But what it did do is it triggered labor. And so I went into labor, just in this really stressful state of being like, my baby's not coming out the way I want my baby to come out. So that went into a birth, that was a cesarean after I was really attached to the idea of a vaginal birth. And then my baby was born with a bilateral pneumothorax, which is a puncture in each of his lungs. And so he had to go to NICU and we didn't get to bond. And I didn't get to hold him. And I was like, strapped down on a table with a open surgical wound. And it was just so different than what I envisioned. And so I was set up for motherhood, like with this trauma. And so I think, I actually think now, you know, nine years later, I look back and I'm like, Well, I learned my first lesson of motherhood, right off the bat, that I'm not in control of everything anymore. And my rigid thinking and my attachment to what I want and how I want it needs to soften and it needs to be more flexible. And so that was probably the hardest transition for me was that it was just this very abrupt sort of message that was in my face, like you are not in control. And you have got to learn how to be more flexible. Just while you're saying that I'm getting goosebumps, because that literally feels like the message that I was given. similar sort of, you know, I had all these expectations I had my first baby was a vaginal birth, but he was very quick. So I had this idea that this time my waters would break, everything would be, you know, planned and go to nap, we had a very traumatic scenario. And same thing, he was a, he was very tiny. But he, he was fully developed. But he was very tiny. Because it turned out my placenta had stopped working after 26 weeks, and no one don't know how no one discovered it. So then he was away from me for a while. So I had this, I just kept like, right from the beginning, he had to have formula. So that control I had in my last, my last baby, that I had to feed him against all odds, I was going to feed this child that was taken away from me. So it was like, Okay, you are really not in control of this. And you you're being forced to let go of these, you know, these beliefs that you are holding on to. And then when I got him back, I just had these, I just kept hearing in my head, just keep him close, keep him close. So I would just sit and hold him and nurse him and he'd sleep and I'd miss him. And it just was completely different to my first child. And I'm so glad that I was thrown all those curveballs because it just made me completely relaxed and and go, there is no routine, there is no predictability. And I was happy with that. And it was weird because I've never been happy with that. Like when I was five years old, on my first gig performing on stage, it was just at a school Christmas concert. The teacher held the microphone for me and she wasn't holding it in the right spot. So I pulled it closer. You know, this has been me my whole life. It's good. Try it Hmm, yeah, very suddenly and violently, and traumatically. That was all taken away from me. And I'm so grateful for that. Now, you know, in hindsight, the lessons that I've learned, although at the time was pretty full on that, you know, I've always, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. It's amazing, isn't it? Because I save the children choose us for the lessons we have to learn in this life. So it's prevalent? Yeah, I think we choose our families. So talking more about yourself in the work that you're doing? Can you share what you've sort of got coming up or anything you want to share about the work that you're doing? Yes, I actually have a huge movement that I am in right now with my business, I am in the process of transforming my private therapy practice into a large scale mental health platform called the Radiant Life project. And the Radiant Life project is all about helping people find that radiance, and that glow. That is part of our human birthright. But we forget, and we get stuck in our mental illnesses, and we get stuck on autopilot. And so this is about really getting unstuck, whether you're a mother, whether you're not a mother, whether you're a man or a woman, or non binary, anyone, this is about lighting your life up from the inside out and feeling full and resourced. Not without challenges in your life, but with the challenges and feeling empowered to live as a whole person. So I have a new book that I'm working on, that's almost ready to go to publishing called the Radiant Life project. And it's a big download of my 15 plus years of clinical experience, plus some of my own personal journey. And I've also got some courses coming up that will be available on my website. And I'll be offering retreats and workshops that are all geared toward helping people build a radiant life. Wow, that sounds awesome. I'm really excited for you. That's fantastic. Thank you, I am so excited by it, I actually took a three month sabbatical from my therapy practice because I got really burned out working sort of on the frontlines as a mental health person in the pandemic. And I thought I was just going to spend my sabbatical like curled up in bed watching movies, but actually, I have felt so energized and so excited about the Radiant Life project that I am just writing, and building and creating and making art and talking to people like you and it feels, talk about alignment, it feels very aligned. That's wonderful. I can just see your face like literally radiant, as you told me about it. It's just wonderful. Thank you. So share with us, what's the name of your website where people can best find you and find out more information. Yes, the website is the Radiant Life project.com. And you can also follow me on Instagram at the Radiant Life project. I'm I'm posting reels every other day with little therapeutic tidbits and kind of helpful, helpful little gems for people. And I have a free newsletter that I'm sending out once a month that gives inspirations and little offerings and keeps people up to date with my new releases and the progress of my book. So if you want to be part of my mailing list, you can sign up for my newsletter on my website, which is the Radiant Life project.com And that's probably the best way to reach me. Awesome. I'm glad you mentioned about your Instagram because I do enjoy your reels. And there's something very soothing about your voice too. I must say when you're sharing you know little tips about I think one was how you had to give a good apology like the three steps and there was another one about boundaries that I really liked. But the way you present them is just so it makes To stop scrolling and just go, ah, like, it's just so calming. And I don't know really connective, if that's not the word, but you know what I mean? Like, it's, again, it feels like you're right there, you're talking, you're talking to me. And you're saying, Allison, this is this is a thing you should be listening to. Thank you. That is my intention. And I am trying to, I'm trying to give away free support for people and Instagram as a great resource for people. And so I really am, you know, these aren't like promotional videos that I'm trying to hook people, I'm really just trying to give away knowledge that people can use to support themselves. Because the Radiant Life project is not about using anyone else as a crutch or expecting anyone else to rescue you. It's about doing it from the inside out. And, and being so radiant, that it extends through and beyond you and affects the world. Absolutely. We need to sit there about doing the work yourself. And there's no one's going to do it for you. When I was in the real depths of my postnatal depression, with my second child, I had that exact feeling I had, and it was incredibly daunting, and scary. But on the other hand, it was so empowering, it was like, no one can help me, and a fearful thing, but then it was like, Uh, no one can help me because I'm capable of doing this, I can do this. So it was like, flicking the switch. It's, it's scary, when you know, you've got to do it yourself. And when you're not in a great place, you know, in your own head, they can feel like the worst news in the world. Like, literally, you want someone to save you, you want someone to fix you. But working with someone like yourself, you know, a trained professional, you will have assistants, but at the end of the day, it is you that goes deep inside you and changes, you know, whether it's, you know, the habits or the way you think about you yourself, think about the world, all that sort of stuff is on you. And I think I learned that during my sabbatical it, it took me 15 years of clinical practice to realize that, oh, I don't want these people to need me, I want these people to not need me. Yo, now I'll be going back to this Radiant Life project with the new perspective of I'm here as a guide and as a supportive resource. But ultimately, this is your show. This is your life. So reclaim it. Yeah, let's see. So well said I love that. And also just a point I wanted to mention, you are trained and experienced, like you said, 15 years of clinical experience, it really annoys me when I see people on Instagram sprouting out do this, do that, whatever. And they know they have none of that. So just to point out the you actually know things. Thank you. You're right, there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there. So make sure you know as people are being discerning about aligned relationships and the right resources, make sure that the support that you receive is from credible places. All right, well, I'll let you lead the way, Kate with this reading using your beautiful deck. Okay, thank you. So what I always do with this is, I just want the cards to know that this is for you and not me. So I just sort of say to the cards. This is a reading for Alison. Okay, so would you like to stick with your your three card? Pull? You do whatever feels right over there. But I'm gonna leave it up to you. Do you have any specific questions or any specific? Anything that's on your mind that you're curious about? Look, I'd like to just know that where I'm at right now I'm actually feeling because I see my full disclosure, I see my therapist monthly. So I do a lot of work. And I feel like right at this moment in time, I actually had a mental health check with my doctor this morning. And you know, we have this thing over here called a I think it's called K 10. And you check, no, based on the last four weeks, have you experienced different emotions or situations. And mine was the lowest score I think it's ever been ever so right now I'm going really good. So I guess I just like, you know, some feedback on that, I suppose. Yes, that's perfect. How about like, why are you feeling so well? What's working? Yeah, And what are some areas of? Oh, I got it. Okay, what's working? What is an area of growth that you can work through now that you have so much strength? And I'm wondering if maybe there was something to let go of now. So maybe I'll pull three. Yep, that sounds awesome. Okay, so the first one is Why are you feeling so good? Okay, and the second one is what area of growth feels accessible now that you're so resourced? Okay, and the third one is, what can you let go of? What do you no longer need? All right. So I'll give you these three. And then if we need an additional minute, sometimes we need one more card. So we'll see. So why are you feeling so good. This is the card that I pulled. And this is the card of companionship, this is a relational card. And for you, this could mean anything from like, either not being codependent, like just coexisting peacefully with people or it could mean that you have a new kind of support or a connection that's really sustaining and filling you up. But this is about kind of like peaceful coexistence and relationships. Yeah. And I'll screenshot these these cards and put them in the show notes for everyone. But it's, it's a pair of Dragon is it to dragonflies and flowers, and then color that is my color, that background? That's like that aqua, sort of It's a mixture between throat chakra and the heart chakra. It's kind of that that really beautiful Aqua. Love that. That's beautiful, by the way. Thank you. Okay, so number two, now that you're in a strong place, what work can you do? So this is the card that's about being both rooted, and also free. So the work now is kind of working with this binary that you don't have to be so grounded that you don't fly, and you don't have to be so airy, that you're ungrounded. So the work now is about having both Hmm. It's finding that balance, isn't that? Which kind of Yeah, you should, one sorry to cut you off. I'm usually one way or the other, I made the Full Tilt one way or nothing. So this card is telling you that now that you're in such a strong place in your life, it's time for you to kind of have a fusion of Mind Body Spirit, and not be only in one or the other. Yep, yeah. So where can you can you describe that? That beautiful picture? Fairly? Yes. So this is a an image of a figure that has sort of golden energy coming in through the crown chakra at the top of their head and moving through the body, and actually growing roots that reach down into the earth all the way down to sort of the molten lava core where there are pure crystalline energies and resources. And the figure also has large wings that are open and expanding and kind of taking off. Yeah, I have a thing with wings, we fly with feathers, I collect a lot of flat Earth, this flower girl articulates a lot of flowers, too. But wings is a big thing for me. Yes, I also love wings, well, then you're gonna like this one, too. So your third part, which is about what to let go of. This is an image that's about like magical thinking, this is about I think what this message is, is that you should let go of the sort of spiritual bypassing of avoiding things by being too kind of too spiritual, and not actually facing what's real. There is magic in the world. And there is spirituality in the world. And we can also use them as avoidance mechanisms. So I think that this card is asking you to release that. Hmm, that definitely makes sense. I love how you're, you're female, I guess presuming it's a female figure there has got the wing on one side. And then it's sort of like it's reality, and, and sort of the spiritual world sort of shining one figure and if that makes sense, and the columns and it's similar to your second card with sort of a feeling of grounding, but also flying at the same time. And I think that's part of the message with With when you don't want to let go of all of your magic, you don't want to let go of your spirituality that's important. You just want to let go of the parts that are keeping you from doing the work you need to do. Hmm, yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like I can use it as a justification to avoid things. I think you just said that. Yeah. Yes. John Wellwood has a term called spiritual bypassing. And it is just all about how we use spirituality to avoid things. And it's not that's not a healthy use of spirituality. Yeah. I love that. So do you need do you need another car? Do you feel like there's any anything lingering? No, I don't actually, I feel like that's, that's actually incredibly spot on. That's, and it's really not, I've always felt really reassured after having cards pulled like, it just feels like a nice warm hug from the universe. And, you know, there's, there's never, I don't know, all the all the decks I've ever read. If they want to tell you, you know, to improve on something, it's always in a kind way, you know, they're never gonna pound you on the head with a with a horrible, you know, mean thing. But you know, they're looking after. So if there's things I need to say, they'll tell us, you know? Yes, I talk about it as like the shadow side and the sunny side where everything has the shadow like Carl Jung talked about in his in his groundbreaking psychological work. But there's a dark side to everything. But there's also a bright side to everything. And if you can find the place where you can hold both and glean the gifts from both than that's like holistic, balanced living, right is not getting too lost in the shadows or too blinded by the light. It's getting that union the Yang sort of just it's balanced. Yes. Balance. Yes. Oh, look, thank you. That is just, ah, I feel very special. And everyone listening, you should feel special, because that's the very first time we've ever had a reading on the podcast. So thank you, Kate, for sharing that with us. You're welcome. And you'll be can people purchase your cards from your website as well? Yes. So at the Radiant Life project.com There's a page where you can purchase the deck, you could purchase the book, the authentic Mother, you can also purchase prints of my artwork. Oh, lovely. Excellent on thank you I have just had a such a lovely morning chatting to you. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just so welcome. I've enjoyed it as well. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Georgia Fields Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep15 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Georgia Fields is a singer, songwriter, producer and arranger from Melbourne Vic, and a mum of 2. She has been recording and releasing music as an independent artist for over 10 years. In 2010 Georgia recorded her debut self-titled album. Georgia Fields was awarded Album of the Week for ABC Radio National and Beat Magazine, and saw her perform on national television for SBS’ RocKwiz. Since then she has released Astral Debris in 2016 and Afloat, Adrift in 2017 - an EP captured live with The Andromeda String Quartet and She currently working on her next album Hiraeth, due for release 2022. She has also founded and launched The Mother Lode - a community to support and connect working mums in the Australian music industry. In this episode we chat about experiencing and dealing with 'imposter syndrome', the challenge of returning to performing after taking a maternity break, ageism in the music industry, THAT Triple J tweet and our mutual love for The Beatles. **This episode contains discussions around post natal depression and anxiety** Connect with Georgia here - https://www.georgiafields.com/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Georgia's music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Giorgio fiends. Giorgio is a singer songwriter and arranger from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two children. George has been recording and releasing music as an independent artist for over 10 years. In 2010, Georgia recorded her debut self titled album, her album, Georgia Fields was awarded album of the week for ABC Radio, national and beat magazine, and it saw her perform on national television on an episode of SPSS TV show rock quiz. Since then, she has released astral Daybreak in 2016, and afloat adrift in 2017, and AP captured live with the Andromeda String Quartet. George is currently working on her next album, entitled heroes, due for release in 2022. Amongst all this, Georgia has also founded and launched the motherlode, a community to support and connect working mums in the Australian music industry. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. Love to welcome you along today, Georgia. Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast. And thank you. Great to have you here. Thanks for having me. So I know a little bit about you. I've been listening to your music for a little while. But can you share what you do? How you got into it? And all that kind of stuff? Sure. Well, I'm, I'm a singer, songwriter, I guess. That's my main bag. And I started, I started writing songs when I was a kid. But it took me a long time to have the guts to really pursue it professionally. So I started playing and really giving it a go when I was about 25. I think. So that was writing songs and performing under my own name, Georgia fields. And so now I'm, of course 26. No, I'm going to be 78 next week, so I've been doing it a little while now. I also write for strings from time to time, either for myself or for other artists, which is a lot of fun doing string arranging. Yeah, that's in terms of what kind of music I do. I tend to just say pop music because I feel like that kind of covers a lot of bases but pops a wider genre. So delving deeper into that, I guess. I tend to have a play with a band, as I said, sometimes with strings, so more of an indie pop, modern folk type situation. I guess that sums me up. Yeah. So when you said you used to write when you were younger? Did you ever do anything with it, then? Did you ever sing it like concerts or perform you're performing music as a child? I didn't do. I didn't kind of work as a child thing. I did a few recording sessions for ads as a kid. My uncle worked in that world. So occasionally, they'd need some singers. That sounded young or were kids. So I had done a little bit of that. Before I was familiar with studios. My uncle had both of my uncles had studios and and my family from the music world as well. So it was just something that was kind of modeled to me I didn't perform really as a kid. Thankfully, because I think that is a whole other can of worms. Yeah, yeah, that's how experiences Yeah, for sure. So why did it take you till you are 24 to start sharing your music? I think I just thought I had to be perfect to get started. Probably do Just want to examine that now like, probably I heard someone say, the problem was, I think it was like probably read it on Instagram on an inspirational quote, but it was something like we compare our, our work in progress with other people's finished outputs, you know, like, big I was just looking at looking at the artist side mired and going, Oh, well, what I'm doing here, what I'm working on isn't isn't as good as that. Whereas, you know, you're kind of comparing your own bedroom, works in progress with fully finished fully supported artists that are signed to Sony and to have massive, you know, I think there's probably a bit of naivety and a bit of impostor syndrome. But when I was I was, I went overseas, I went around around the world, when back when you could do that. And I was working in London, and I remember someone I've been working with. No, thank you, my husband just brought in a little snack for me. Thank you. What a sweetheart. I was I was I was living. I was living in London, I was working in London, and one of the directors of the firm I was working at, and I was just doing administration forgot my name. And I've been working with them for setting up their breakfast meeting for a while, like a while now. And they called me sweetie. And I was like, he doesn't know my name. And it just was this moment of feeling really disrespected and feeling like I wasn't where I wanted to be. And I just thought I have to I just have to get back home to Melbourne and just get making music. So that was kind of what really spurred me on, I think, yeah, it was that that moment that sort of brought everything into clarity, I suppose. And you Right, right. None of this stuff. That's right. That's right. Yeah. You. you've recorded a few albums as I listened to you on Spotify for a while that I did a bit of research. Thanks. Tell us about your albums that you've recorded. You said you've composed for strings. I think that's what in my mind anyway, makes your stuff so different. And so beautiful that you combine your your vocals, it's like the strings aren't just there to fill in. Underneath the accompaniment, they actually have a special place. Thank you. That's a really lovely interpretation of it. And I studied cello as a kid at school, I was lucky to go to a school that had a strings program. And we had a music program and you could choose an instrument and I chose cello actually initially chose double bass, but they didn't have enough school bases for me to borrow. So I've got I've got the cello which from memory my dad was was happy about. But I was I had terrible cello. And I didn't practice enough and it just wasn't really my instrument. So I never really able to be when I played it for five years, wasn't really able to get a beautiful sound out of it. So I ended up quitting cello in high school just to focus on on singing. But it's something it's instrument that I love. I love it so much that I decided not to play it anymore because it's so terrible. And out of respect for the insurance pure respect for cello. I'm not going to do it to any more cello. But I think having that experience of knowing what it can do and what it could sound like I was able to bring that to my my songwriting. I remember my cello teacher when I was in high school, I said to her, I really want to like plug Rotella in and play like play it, like maybe put it through an app and then I could sing over the top of it and bless a shoe I think she must have been must be a very classically trained cellist and she played with the msoa. And she just kind of looked at me and was like, okay, and I think that idea was quite foreign to her. But also She's probably just thinking you could start by playing some scales and doing a practice that I have given to you that you haven't done. Anyway, I digress. Yeah, I love working with strings because I feel there's just so it's such an emotional instrument and they're very versatile. So I've I've always had strings in my releases. My first album was very kind of was very foci and orchestral kind of based. I had an old friend who I met in high school actually, who's an incredible cellist. She's now a doctor of cello and she He was really mentored me when I started writing for strings. That's a treaty. Her name is Judas Haman if Casio in case any listeners will look that up, I wanted, you know, how do you write this out. And so she kind of got me started on it and got me hooked on it. Yeah, and then a little while ago, I made a record with a quartet that I work with a lot the Andromeda String Quartet, which was really fun, because we just did it live in the studio. So it was just just string quartet and voice. Before we talk about your children, I want to talk about the amazing work that you're doing with the mother lode, the website and the Instagram. And I just commend you so much. Can you just share with the listeners about the mother lode? How it came about? You know what compelled you to create the concept? First, I want to say thanks for your kind words about it. It's relatively new project. And it's funny when I connect with other mums through this project. In other words, it's always astounding to me when they say oh, we're you know, we're really enjoying it. Oh, this is this is a really great initiative because I think oh, gosh, I have had huge impostor syndrome about launching it. Yeah, who am I? Who am I to create this space for moms? You know, what have I done? How am I you know, this, you know, Cami farm Georgia, get back in your box, but I'm glad I started it. Yeah, so motherlode is it's an online community that basically aims to support independent musicians who are mothers in their music making, and their mothering, I guess, acknowledging that there are two enormous jobs in your life roles, or, you know, not labels, but they're parts of who you are. And they're really their full time. Part like you don't clock off being an artist, you don't clock off being a mom, they're just that that's part of who you are as a person. And support is needed for boats, I guess it was, I've been thinking about it for a while. I've been thinking about, you know, I just want to get together with my as a musician, friends, and just have a big debrief on so how are you doing this? And are you putting childcare in the grant budget? And how did you get a How did you, you know, do this and how do we do that. But it was when, really, in the pandemic, in in 2020, that I thought, this is getting ridiculous, this is getting very challenging. And, you know, we see it saw that a lot of job losses, you know, across across all jobs have, we've seen that it's women bearing the brunt of that. And people have said, it's likely because they're the ones that were already working part time was a big, they've had to stop working so they can homeschool their kids. We know that the music industry has been in crisis from the pandemic. So I guess just wanting to support mothers in the music industry to stay active, stay supported to keep creating work, because if we lose those voices, we're going to lose, you know, those stories, we're going to lose that, that perspective that I think is really important. And it's perspectives that I seek out now. Yeah, it is a community. It's, it's bringing people together, it's sharing ideas, and just giving people the opportunity to share information that is going to help others you know, it builds on itself. And yeah, it's wonderful. I hope it builds on itself. I feel like we're really in early days, we've got the Instagram channel, which is at Find the mother lode and then the website which I'm building up slowly. I guess because it's just as you would know, it's it's just me behind the scenes at night when the kids are in bed furiously on my laptop, trying to you know, work and get things done, but um, I've got a lot of dreams for the project and what it could mean. But yeah, we just got to start small, don't we? It's always got to start somewhere, but the intention is there and I'm so glad that you put aside your imposter syndrome that you named it. I haven't put it aside I'm just I'm just, you know, just keeping it quiet for the time being No, thank you. I am trying to put it aside. Yeah. trees and all these gravel magic so you mentioned your kids then tell us about your family. Yeah, I'm a mum to two kids. We live in Melbourne with my husband and my daughter, Kendra, who is six and a half. And my son Marlon, who is two and a half, and we're in lockdown. 6 million points. Whatever it is, I've lost count. But yeah, we live in, in the burbs here in Melbourne, and yeah, my husband's also a musician. So we're rich. We have a lot of keyboards, we have a lot of keyboards. We don't, you know, don't have a TV. But we have a piano. So we've got our priorities, you know, order or not order. Yeah, that That basically sums up that's us. Yeah. So you met your husband? Through your music, like through performing through meeting? Yes, yeah, our bands were singing our guest spot. At a night where his band was playing. So we did a collaboration together. And then we did a live family collaboration. We'll see. With with a bit of, you know, getting to know each other in between? Yeah. Oh, do you find that because he has an insight into music, he can empathize with the space and the time that you need, and when you need it, because he's got that background in music. Definitely. There's definitely an understanding of what the creative process is and what it feels like to be a creative person, but there's also a lot of competition, because we both want that space. And there's children in the family that require our care and attention all the time, because we're doing home learning. So we have very little respite at the moment. So I'd say that, that there's the positive of Yeah, you know, he gets it. But also, we both kind of scrounging for that time, which is a challenge, I think, with families, particularly families where there's two creative people. Yeah. So how I mean, taking out the challenge right now of being in lockdown, how would you generally manage your time and then with the children? With it's changed over time. So when we when it depends really on what the teaching arrangements are. He He's teaching at the moment, I was teaching before I took maternity leave. So generally, we just kind of try and split whatever spare days were left in the week, where we weren't teaching. But this, it's been more challenging as I wasn't really able to return from maternity leave to teaching work. Because that was when the pandemic really started. So that means that he's doing the majority of the teaching work. So in general, we try to split the time when the one when we're not teaching, but at the moment, he's working essentially full time. So we both are just working in the evenings on our creative projects if and when and how we want to do that, which is pretty tiring, but yeah, absolutely. And then yeah, you have the nights when the kids are awake, and then you're up with the children and then you've got a front up the next day again, it's just Oh, yeah. Your work to you know, work on something till 1230 At night, one o'clock, and then your toddler wakes at three, and then you've got to be up at 630 for whatever. Yeah, I'm pretty shocking. I was sleeping but um, but yeah, it's challenging, but you know, we love it. And that is something that I've that I struggle with is getting that balance because and I was talking to my husband about this in the kitchen the other day, like, I'm a much happier person when I'm when I'm got when I've got things on the go when I'm working on motherlode when I'm trying to put a single out or doing some recording, whatever it is, I'm much happier. But I've got to do that, you know, in the night and then I'm freaking exhausted and I'm not as happy as it's like how do you know just kind of do it, I guess. Week by week. Yeah, you can then go here the next week. I don't know if anyone's got an answer, please. Please email in. Yeah, send me a message. But you're going to take care of ourselves too. I mean, yeah. I don't know. I don't know the answer. It's a hard one isn't it? I've really noticed since because I had I was diagnosed with postnatal depression and anxiety after my son was born. He wasn't a great sleeper. Bless him. But now I've really noticed that and I feel like I've I've received a lot of support for that and I'm kind of coming coming through that. But I do notice now when I haven't had enough sleep, like you know, if I if I pull an all nighter to get some work done that I want to do and then my kids waking and then the next day I'm like, Well, I actually I really noticed that my anxiety is really high. So yeah, it's just it is a funny dance. How do you I've got to I have to take care of that because I don't want it to kind of get away from me again. Yeah, for sure. But I don't want to give up making music so but that I think that is a very that's something that's very specific to indie musicians who perhaps are supporting their creative practice with another job as opposed to musicians who are you know, their songwriting and they're performing pays their wage because they they're not you know, having to work through the night. I don't know. I don't know I've never been one of those so yeah. So hard to change. Of all the fates. I've begged to be with you you you I read that you're a big Beatles fan. Yeah, she's awesome. Because I love the Beatles so much the same way you can see their legs. I can Yes, I can. I don't know if I'm as big a fan as my son is now he is mad for it. That's wonderful. If I say to him, Are you are you retired boy or, you know, let me give you a cuddle of my little boys. I'm not a boy. I'm Ringo. I'm mummy Ringo. And he's Marlon Ringo. He's Yes. Please support the Beatles fan here. Beatles fan for sure. What's your favorite album? Oh, that's a good question. It used to be I mean, it was it was such a purpose for a long time, but I feel like I kind of almost burnt myself out from it because it was like my favorite you know from from being a kid. Revolver is just like this really amazing. Almost like a coming of age. I can hear Sergeant Pepper's just around the corner. But you know all that kind of the close harmony. Boy group stuff is still really in there too. I find that really fascinating. Record, but they're all good. I mean, Revolver is my favorite. I tossed up for a long time between that and the White Album. But I went, I love revolver so much. I just love. Yeah, it's just building up. It's just getting like it's starting to wind up to that the psychedelic crazy. Love has a high watermark for guitar sounds, isn't it? Like oh, yeah, I love how they just did whatever they wanted. Like they just they had songs with the tempos changed. And then they had like, the three songs joined together and they just did literally anything they want to. It's like, God, you guys, like 10 years, it was only 10 years, but I know just blows too short amount of time. But I feel as though it would have been it. Yeah, that'd be the talent, the talent, the individual talents, you know, we're standing together sum of their parts situation where you know, there's a special kind of magic, having them all working together but also that imagine just being able to go into into the studio, like just imagine just just going in and not being like watching the clock going shit. How am I gonna pay for this or like we've you know, we've got to get this done because, you know, I've got to make sure I get this many streams or I don't know, just imagine going in and being like, Oh, what am You can do today like that massive amount of freedom and people would have had that confidence in you like none of the record companies would have been worried about what was coming next like they would have just, you know, just let them go and see what they do. Yeah, yeah. Unreal just unreal. You favorite they don't have to ask you for everything. Well, of course Paul for a long time in fact, forever but I feel a really big coming around to George Moore he's his songs kind of used to scare me as a child had this quite Yes. It's kind of not aggressive. But there's something about his voice it's it's almost spooky. It's hit some of his some of his songs. He's just broke me a bit as a kid. But um, but yeah, coming around to George but um, always really been a fan of the way. Paul approaches melody and any songwriting? Yeah. I'm definitely more Paul than I am. John. John. John scares me a bit in his, I think, because I, before I knew much about their lifestyles and their behaviors, I really liked John's music. And then I sort of got turned off a bit when I discovered like, I don't know if that things were true or her stories. Yeah, and it's misogyny sort of attitudes and stuff. And I thought, I'm just gonna stick with post rock and roll that's feels better. I really struggled to listen to run for your life. Oh, yeah. I've listened to the lyrics of it. And what was the other one I was listening to? Which I love no reply, which is from an older one record I can't remember which one so from please please wear his like, I saw you walk in because I've seen like basically it's just he's a stock is a stock it doesn't matter if there's a stock it's not get the message. She's not into you. Just turn the phone. back. Oh, that reminds me. I was just thinking then when you said to me, there's no time. Soon, and it's like, basically do it my way. You gotta see my way. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like do it my way because you're always wrong. And if you do it my way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. When you start thinking about in that way, like, if it creeps like anyway, I sometimes wonder what it would be like to go if you were sent back in time. And you could you could deliver all the songs, but they were fresh. I don't know if I mean, those songs are incredible songs. But they vary over time. And I don't know if you if you transported them to now, would they be successful? I pray I don't I think they actually because they defined the year that they were in because that's groundbreaking in the time that they're in. But yeah, you take them out and put them in today. And you just go What's that? Like? You wouldn't make it wouldn't might not be hit as hard I don't know. 911 Yep, well that's probably a good thing. leaving tomorrow tomorrow never know yeah with my guests, I love talking about two big the two big things I love talking about mum guilt and identity. So we've gone to mum guilt rock fest. How do you feel about I put it in the air quotes the old mum guilt? Because I feel like it's a label that's been created by someone else. But those feelings of that that guilt had had the sort of process that even before I answer that that that is a really interesting idea of what could we call it instead of mum guilt, because it is a thing that is natural. When you care about something, you want to make sure you're doing that job well. How can we re label that? You know, is it is it a pool or is it being drawn back to I definitely I definitely have mom guilt tend to have more mom guilt when I leave. Like if I have to leave the house to do work. Particularly if I go away on tour which I haven't done heaps of I did more of that when tender was little but you know pandemic times haven't really had the chance to abandon my son and hit the road yet. Yeah, it's a funny one. I mean, it's sometimes it never really, never really seems to have a rhyme or reason for me. You know, there'll be times when I can be stand quite firm in my commitment to maintain creative practice and a career and, and think, oh, you know, this is fine. And that's got him and this is great for him, it's great for them and not going to worry about this. And then there's other times, you know, I shouldn't have spent so long at the milk bar, you know, it doesn't seem to have a rhyme or reason for me, but definitely experience it. Yeah. Absolutely. And, yes, I like that, what you're saying about calling it something else, because I feel like almost like social media has created that tear, like a hashtag monkey, like, it's a throwaway sort of comment for others, but it's, it doesn't serve moms well to be labeled in that way. And sometimes, is it guilt? Or sometimes is it just actually, you know, us questioning? Is it time to bring the the is it the ledger back to towards more towards family? Or, you know, like, I think it is okay to question your involvement in in any kind of, you know, activity or, or passion, it's okay to say, Oh, am I spending too much time at work? Or am I? Or my you know, that that's okay. But whether you necessarily want to feel guilty about it? I don't know. And I guess, thinking about it now, like I haven't really thought really investigated this. And I'm glad you're asking me to but just for my own self, but I suppose it requires you two approach. I guess it's worth acknowledging that you're not going to approach parenting with a clean slate, like we all bring the wounds from our own childhood, and the wounds from the way we were parented to our own parenting. So that's something I guess that I, I find myself second guessing myself a bit on you know, do I have a reason to feel guilty about this? Or is it? Is it okay? Hmm. So I think, yeah, it's a challenging one, because no one's going to approach it. Yet, with a clean slate, everyone's going to bring their own baggage to parenting and, and that's going to inform how guilty you might be, or might feel. It's funny, there's, my friends become a mother recently, she's got a son who's nine must be nearly 10 months now maybe. And we went on tour together, we did a really big tour together when my daughter was maybe two, three. And like, that was the first time I left her and I had a lot of guilt about leaving her about being far away. And a lot of that was, I can also I could sense that there was a lot of baggage from my own childhood as well. But she was always very active about saying, you know, you are setting a great example for her, you are showing her that you there are things that in your life that you care about, you're showing her you're being entrepreneurship and you know, so she's really in my ear about that. So I feel lucky to have a friend and a musician and another like her to really help keep that in check. And if anyone is interested, her name is fear pH ia i think Instagram handle is listened to fear she's an amazing artist. So she's worth checking out and if she's your friend like she's my friend, she would tell you enjoy the music making take that time off go on to do it. So then leading into that the concept of identity that and I'm going to put this in air quotes again, because whenever I say I know it's not true. It's important to us for you to be more than just a mum and I know that's not right, because we're never just a mum, but I think you sort of touched on it earlier. When you say you don't clock off from being a mom, you don't clock off from being a musician, or an artist. How do you sort of retain your identity of, you know, you're still GA, you happen to have kids, but you've got all these other aspects of your life that are important as well. Make sense? Isn't it? It's an interesting question. I don't know if your other guests say this, but it's really interesting to have somebody asking these specific questions because often, like, I personally wouldn't think about this, in such specifically personal terms, until someone asked me a question like this, I thank you for the opportunity to, you know, do therapy. Podcast, when, when my daughter was born, I had work when I fell pregnant, I had work coming up, I had been booked to write a film school. And that started work on my second album. So I was just like, I'm just gonna keep doing like, I'm gonna start, I'm just gonna keep doing these things. And so I had these things booked in, I had to do them. Oh, my God, it was quite stressful at times, because I was frightened of letting people down. I didn't realize how sleep deprived I was going to be. So there was like, it was very challenging. But because I had the work booked in, it had to happen. Contrasting that, to the experience with my son, which is when I thought, Okay, I'm just gonna take some time off, I'm not going to book anything in. I'm not going to stress myself out, like I did the other time when I had all those commitments, so I'm just going to have nothing in the future. And then, you know, when he's one or something, I'll just start on some things. But COVID said, No, you won't. So that was interesting. Because I approach motherhood with having no, no creative projects, really happenings and no identity as, as a being a musician in that way, and it was very shocking was very challenging. To consider that those parts of myself could be gone, they might not come back. The opportunities might not be there, you know, those relationships might be lost. When you put time, why don't you go back to book a gig and that person is not there anymore? They knew you and the other person's like, oh, who are you? And how many people can you bring to the venue? And you have to go through the whole thing of selling yourself? Again, that sort of thing? Which really, yeah, I think it is really important to there's nothing wrong with being a full time mother who doesn't work outside the house. And, and is, is totally, um, enthused. And just fulfilled by that role. If you wanted to be executive, or, you know, an artist, or whatever it is, if you want to do something outside of that, it's okay to like, I think it's really important to, like, still live life on your own terms, I guess. Not feel like you have to say no to things. Because fathers aren't saying no to things. Let me tell you. Yep. Sorry, but it's true. It's true. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, if you want to say no, if you think oh, I'm just gonna be too tired. And I prefer to just spend the time with my kids then great. But you should be free to make those decisions as much as you can, I think. Yeah, because it is important, I feel from talking to other moms, that you still need to have you still use need to have that sense of self. You need to have something that you can do without your children. You know, it's so I'm just a happy mother. I'm a better mother. I'm a happier mother when I'm when I'm making things callous in its choosing. sweeping across a baby. Laughter sands on defenseless. Spock this shins have detached This is my love with your writing of your music, leaving you scoring. Have you found that that's changed at all since became a mum, like the themes that you explore that kind of thing? The themes in my writing have changed definitely. Yeah. I've I want to say finished writing but I haven't finished recording so the album so maybe I haven't finished writing it either. Maybe there'll be some new song that finds its way onto it. But I have a collection of songs I have a new body of work that I'm I've started recording and And it's it's very much inspired by motherhood and and relationships with my own mother and and grief and and yeah identity and belonging and home and I don't think I would have explored those themes pre children's pre children my songs weren't all about love and breakups you know a number that were and the number that still are you know, but I don't think I would have been inspired to explore those really personal relationships family relationships had I not experienced that imagining of your family Sandra MiFi meets your friends then words fall out like stone we carry them like it to your children they see what you're maybe not the two and a half year old but your your older daughter she knows what you're doing. She knows that you're recording she knows you're making music. She aware of that your contribution to the world. I suppose. She hasn't seen any of my music videos. Actually. I haven't showed her any of those. But she knows she knows I play she knows that. Most of the most of the time what my little one says don't go to a geek mummy. If he sees me putting lipstick on. He's like can you do any of these don't go it's sorry, some slams don't know. I find you i joking about it more because I think we've been so you know, with the lockdown. Everything's been so kind of home. Homebound, so I'm pretty keen to to get out. So I do joke more about that now. But um, but ya know, she she knows. She knows I sing and play and I don't. Yeah, time will tell whether, you know, she's on the therapist couch going my mum was so selfish or, you know, or whether she'll say I was I was proud to see her do things maybe it'd be both probably. I'm guessing. That's isn't it? Maybe it's a little little of both? do really interesting, I wonder what how music compares with other art forms? Because I'm in music as well. I feel like you know, there was that Triple J tweet fuel. You know about which I when I read it, I was like, I don't know if that's really intended for musicians. Like I saw it. And I was like, there must be something else behind that. Because that is just so insulting that I'm sure no one would be stupid. Like no one at Georgia will be stupid enough to insult that many people. Like on purpose. But it was so like, wow. quite awful to read. But, you know, I don't I don't know if there's explicit ageism. In other art forms where people aren't presenting themselves. Yeah, you know, as the work yeah, but probably another isn't dead. So I've got a friend who is a really successful ballet dancer. And, you know, there's this idea that once you get to a certain age and you like, you are not going to be as flexible as a 22 year old, you know, if, if you're in your 50s you're just not going to have the same body, but whether you know, that can still be celebrated and still be, you know, a vehicle for emotion. I mean, how could it not be if you had a dancer with like, 45 years of experience on stage is a 60 year old How could it not be incredible but yeah, I do wonder like how, as I'm getting older and I'm in a young person's industry, you shouldn't be it's I mean, it's not run by all young people. It's run by old men but but yeah, it does. Is it the same for writers who who don't have to have their It faces on the on the work. Is it the same for visual artists, video artists, as women age? Are they more respected? Or is there more pressure to have achieved things and are well, you're this age and you haven't achieved it yet? That's something that I'm would like to know more about. So tell me your findings, you should publish them. But yeah, at first, I thought that must be like a lyric for a song that I'm too old to, like. There must be reason why that that happened. And I think, you know, in the end, I'm glad because I think it it allowed it gave people the confidence to call it out. And just Yeah, I mean, a lot. I am friends with musicians who are my age, and we're just 21. And no joking about that. And be okay with it. I'm 38 Next week. But that, you know, we've all had the thing where Triple J will say, Oh, we we think you're not maybe quite right. To be fair. You know, similar to you, like, I'm not sure that my music really is Triple J music, but I know people I know women who are making Triple J type pop music. Yeah, we're being told Are we just think it's not right, like the right kind of thing for us. Let's move on to the slightly older Double J. But then I I've got a couple of friends who are men who have no problem getting played. So I might know, I don't know. Is it a coincidence? Yeah. See, I thought when the backlash came out, he was certainly I noticed more women reacting to that, quote, men were some men was supportive. But by and large I, for the people that I follow at least, that the women were the ones going hang on a second like, Yeah, I know. It really does. It troubles me. And then some of the comments, there was a really interesting tweet in reply that if you want to double j to be taken seriously, you know, create the same sort of exciting opportunities on double jayven on Triple J. So revamp that to make it something that people aren't like, Oh, great. Now my dad was like, yeah, like you've been primed off to a lesser, you know, and I do think that, that hopefully that will that will grow. Yeah, there was an artist Jack Cole, who was talking about that. He's a out and proud, gay man and a singer songwriter, beautiful singer songwriter and had a lot of wonderful success and to supporting Sarab Lesko and his recent albums received a lot of success. But he was saying that, you similarly, it's the ageism thing is, is compounded by if you're a woman, if you're non binary, if you're gay, if you're from a diverse cultural background, if you're First Nation, so and his experience was very much that, you know, you don't want to have an h you get asked to you know, why don't you send it on to Double J But Double J don't have the lack of version? They don't it's, you can't tune in in your car. It's digital radio. So it's, yeah, yeah. Yeah, hopefully that the only thing I just think it'd be better if there was more Australian, you know, national, radiant, like you've Double J get up to be more of a just a different Triple J and then we're fantastic. But someone else would made the point that Double J or Triple J really rose to cultural fame or importance before the internet. Oh, that was for me. You know, we'd listened to my cassette player ready to hit record when I hear the song that I liked, because it was no Spotify. Yeah, recorded on tape. Yeah, really old. But now that there's the internet, we can all hear about whatever music we want. You know, I still think there's a place for it. I think radio is a really powerful way to connect with people and share music but it is like maybe they're not the cultural gatekeepers that perhaps I think what we think they are because there's the thing called the internet that the kids are talking about this amazing thing I see on the outside like a size I guess it's hard to ask you when you're in lockdown what you've got coming up. Oh, that's Thanks for Thanks for being sensitive enough to kind of say that. You know, I've been around for that. What do you got coming out? Have you asked me that? Yeah. But nothing coming up? No. Thank you for asking. And thank you for putting that beautiful little disclaimer on there about lockdown and the challenges that we're facing with being able to create new works. Really, the main thing I'm focusing on the moment is building up motherlode. It's been something that I find really, I didn't think that ever be something that excited me about building as, as I've been excited about creating songs and writing songs and sharing them with the world and building that sort of the Georgia fields project. I feel really just as excited by Motherload at the moment. So almost sometimes I have to remind myself, hey, you know, have you done any GA feels? Okay, have you worked on your songs because I've just been very excited about starting that off. But I do have some songs written and I'm in the I'm basically I'm trying to get it funded. So I'm, I'm saving money, I'm doing the grants, I'm doing all the things. So that's taking up a lot of energy. But I've decided that I'm just gonna keep trying to record the songs, I've got a single coming out soon, where were worked with a with the producer for the album, which, you know, I'm really excited about sharing because we went into a lovely studio and, you know, sing it in the lovely studio, and he's mixed it and it sounds lovely, and can't wait to share that if I can't get funding together. You know, it might be more of a Lo Fi project, but I feel I won't. I will. And this is another conversation for another day maybe on creativity and, and, and motherhood. But I feel that until I've kind of recorded these songs, it's very challenging to write are the ones I don't know if you're like that, like I'm very much like, I need to record the songs now. I need to share them. It's like and then I can close the chapter. And I can Yeah, so I think I have to record them. So they will come out at some point in some way. Yeah. Now with varying sounds of maybe some of them are going to have my kids in the background. I don't know. I could send my two Nerf guns for you. Just to help you kind of really concentrate really getting my feel I do feel I heard that's not I feel like though. Now like I've done shows where something's you know, distracting or it's like nothing is is prepares you for that stage craft focus and when you're trying to practice and you've got kids running around in the lounge room like it's just such a good training man thank you so much. Yeah, I look forward to seeing how it goes. Likewise. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet My breath is my heart was

Janelle Thomas Dubai based singer + songwriter S2 Ep64 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Janelle Thomas, a singer, songwriter and performer based in Dubai, UAE. and a mum of 2 boys. Janelle begin performing at the age of 5, at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons, and played in the high school Marching Band playing clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20's deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Music at Concordia College in Montreal. Her day job wasn’t satisfying her, and fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for 4 months. Without really knowing where Oman was, she said yes! That was 16 years ago and she has performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract, when he joined the band as the guitarist and they have been together ever since. Janelle and Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015, they continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting two wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud, high-voltage 5-7 piece pop cover bands (as bandleader and musical director, respectively). Under the guise of "Lady J Duo" they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics, and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary, good-vibes-only listening experience that is elegant, yet funky. In the Autumn of 2012 they released Noise Rises (Strange Cat Records), an album of retro-inspired funky soul, featuring ten original songs they wrote together. In the spring of 2020, during the Dubai Covid-19 lockdown, Janelle and Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity, showcasing their favourite tunes, taking on-the-spot requests, and cameos by their firstborn Theo (a natural show-stealer). They continued these for 18 months. You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast today, and her music is used with permission. Connect with Janelle website / facebook / instagram Podcast - instagram / website You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast, and her music is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast this week. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Janelle Thomas, a singer songwriter and performer based in Dubai in the UAE, and a mom of two boys. Janelle began performing at the age of five at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons and played in the high school marching band on clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20s deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music at Concordia College in Montreal. her day job wasn't really satisfying. And fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for four months. without really even knowing where Oman was. She said yes, that was 16 years ago, and she's performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract when he joined the band as the guitarist. Janelle And Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015. They continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting to wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud High Voltage five to seven piece, pot cover band as bandleader and musical director respectively, under the guise of the Lady J. God, Lady J. bein Janelle, they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary good vibes only listening experience that is elegant yet funky. In the autumn of 2012. They released noise rises through strange cat records are an album of retro inspired funky soul, featuring 10 original songs that they wrote together in the spring of 2020. During the Dubai COVID-19 lockdown, Janelle And Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity showcasing their favorite chains, taking on the spot requests and featuring cameos by their firstborn Theo and natural show stealer. They continue these for 18 months. You're here Janelle is amazing vocals throughout this podcast today, and their music is used with permission. I hope you enjoy today's episode Gavin lane, got a fistful. Gonna run that bill will be the end of a long route backwards dad. No place my hands. Man and we're all gonna say welcome Janelle. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for having me. Allison. I'm excited. Yeah, so I can I can hear your lovely accent. You're from Canada. Is that right? I am. I'm from Canada, but I live in Dubai. Alright, so what how like, how long have you lived there for what sort of brought you there? So while the music Yeah. So my husband and I have been together 16 years. He's also Canadian. And we started traveling in a band. So So we were playing hotel residencies in the Middle East and throughout Asia. We did that for about eight, nine years. And then it brought us to Dubai. So we've been here since January 2015. And we're residents here now. And we've had two little boys here. So this is this is home for the time being. Yeah. So these are really hot there. Let the moment super hot. Yeah. I just got in from the pool. So I'm okay at the moment. But yeah, summers are very long they and very hot, especially with small kids. You really feel it so much more, because you're basically just inside for five months? Yeah, but it can get up to 50 degrees Celsius. Sand humid. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, the outdoors is kind of non existent, aside from if you're doing something in the water. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. With us being from Canada, we do have a bit of that experience. Because you'll have really cool times in the winter, where you don't go outside, you're not gonna go take a stroll or take your baby out or anything. But they don't tend to be constant, you know, you'll have cold days, and then it kind of warms up enough. And you pack on your layers and you go outside, whereas when it's hot, it's just hot. Yeah. Because you can't do anything you Yeah, yeah. So, um, so we used to find this. Okay. And since we had kids, we just find them brutal. So we're just counting down till October. Oh, my gosh. So what's like an average sort of when it when it's not so hot? What's the weather like, then? So lovely. You know, there's kind of six months of a year where it's gorgeous. And you kind of can't think about living anywhere else. So I would say sort of the coolest it gets probably in January, maybe days that are around 20 to 25. But Sunny, and gorgeous. It's perfect. Yeah, I mean, those are the times where I find it too cold to go swimming. I say that as a Canadian where I grew up swimming in icy lakes. But yeah, I get I get in the water now. And it's the season you sort of, you're sort of forced to do things that you wouldn't necessarily do if you had your own choice. If you lead with me. Love you. So tell me about how you got into music because it's something you've always done. Yes. And no, you know, probably like a lot of musicians always been a music lover. There was always lots of music in our house, my parents, neither of whom are musicians, but we had, you know, huge record collection. And there was always lots of singing and dancing that was encouraged. So, actually, I started performing. From age five, I lived in a really small town, and we had we had little ballet school. And that, for me was everything like those ballet recitals at the end of the year, you know, with costumes and makeup and lights. So I would say that that's where it all started was was there. So for the first few years, I danced, I took piano lessons, as you do. And then when it was time to go to high school, actually, I chose to go to high school in the big city, which was Montreal. My dad used to commute he drove back and forth. So actually I commuted with him like super early mornings and stuff like that, to go to high school. But I really wanted that school because it was the only one in the city that had a marching band. I was in the marching band and nerd for years playing the clarinet. And I played the trombone for a year. And then after that, you know sort of spent my 20s I think sort of struggling with am I going to be an artist? Can I be an artist? Or should I get a real job? You know, I did do a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music. Yeah, because when it was time for university, I thought I really like to do something I enjoy. I might spend three years enjoying myself and then need to become an accountant or something serious, but give it a go, you know? Yeah, and then just sort of bounce back and forth, did some contracts, then some admin work and then would be, you know, kind of happy with the lifestyle of neither. But it just kept pulling me back in I really was miserable when I was being an administrator even though I had some great jobs and lovely people. Have you know, and there was just a moment where I realized, like, I cry before I go to work every day at this very nice job. It's just such a nice job for somebody else. It's not for me, I can't do this. I'm only 26, whatever, to have given up. And so actually chance meeting with a musician I knew. And he said, We've just lost our singer. And we have a gig in Oman. And do you want to join our band and travel for four months? And I said, okay, and then said, Where's omen? While it's kind of next to Dubai, it was okay. But I never heard of it. So that was 16 years ago. Yeah, like when, and it was really different experience starting to travel then I mean, we had an app and there was no, YouTube, there was no Facebook, there was none of that kind of even the amount of information that you'd have was limited. It was people's blogs, and, you know, blurry photos and that kind of thing. So it was a relatively scary and endeavor to embark on. I think the thing that saved me is the four guys in the band that I went with, had all been there the year before. So they did have lots of first hand experience. But of course, coming from Canada and traveling to the Middle East for my first real big overseas adventure, let some preconceptions about how it's going to be and I thought, well, I'll just do four months, and then I'll go home. And then 16 years later. Still here. So your husband's musical as well. You guys played together? Where did you make the line? So I met him after that first contract. So actually, I did one conch. I did one more than he's done. So I joined here Monday. Oh, yes, we're totally keeping score, who's played more show? So I joined the band in January and somehow got asked to be the bandleader. I really feel it was by default, because everyone else in the band was French Canadian. And I was the only one who spoke English. And with my administrative background, I spoke good business English. So, you know, I would have the current bandleader coming to me and saying, Can you help me formulate this email? And I'm like, Yeah, you can't start it with Pedro. You know, it has to be a little more formal than that. So he kind of went, well, could you just do it? I was like, Okay, I guess so. So I certainly took on all the admin tasks, which also involves liaising with any of the agents or hotels that we were, you know, that we were dealing with, because these are five star properties, you know, the Grand Hyatt and Hilton and everything, like you needed to kind of be a little bit more on it than that it was the time. So we did the one gig. And then we went back to Montreal for this summer and made a couple of changes to the lineup, the guitars that we had was leaving. And so we went through about oh, my gosh, seven guitarists trying to find a good fit. And finally got Felix who was recommended by a friend of a friend. He was only 22. At the time, he lived in an even smaller town than the one I was from, like, 500 people. And, you know, 20,000 Cows was kind of where he was coming from. He'd never been on a plane. And so for him, it was an equally big adventure. And he, but he was kind of in a place in his life where he wasn't really happy and had just finished his musical education, you know, informally in college, and that, and he sort of same as me with, well, I'll do it for four months. And yeah, and then we got together pretty much right away. So that definitely helped us both feel like this was something that we wanted to stick with. And so yeah, so we've been together a long time. Oh, that's an awesome story. I love that. And isn't it just so typical in the music world? It's like, it's a friend of a friend or someone new this person or it's just the way it goes? Isn't it? Just this connection of people? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, we're very lucky. But that and it's also funny, too, that there's, I'm, you know, the more that I have, the longer that I am a musician, the more I'm amazed by stories of bands who have that longevity, you know, like bands like YouTube, where they have the same members forever. Because I know even in a couple, it can be really hard to have exactly the same vision for the music and the same vision for the timing of how you want things to go. You know, when we had mostly we play as a duo now, but But we spent most of our time together playing with larger groups. And there were lots of fantastic musicians we played with, who would say I'm tired of traveling, I want to go home and be with my other half, or we had someone leave to go to med school. And it was kind of doable, but you're an amazing keyboard player, he was okay. But I want to be a doctor. So, so to realize that not only does the music have to work, but where you are in your life at that time. It has to work like that for people could do that for 30 years. It is it's incredible, isn't it? When you break it down like that you think of all the things that could have changed or gone wrong, or like it's, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's still we actually liking each other and getting on like, right. I'm not saying that about you and your husband? I mean, I'm talking about you too. No, no, no, you can say it about us too. Yeah. Gosh. Adding up your misery causes in the shop, you've been dumped by text, then being slipped. You're wondering what's next, baby. Though life's looking great. You can choose not to decide. I have listened to some of your tracks online, you have got a powerhouse voice. I love your voice. It's I love a bit of built voice. It's so good. passion and energy. Yeah, so did you have like formal lessons for your voice? Or did you just sort of instinctively feel it out and work it out yourself? I've had very few, very few. So I went to university in jazz boys, but have had zero lessons. Before I started I had they went to Concordia, University of Montreal and one of the things I love about their program is they want it to be more inclusive. So unlike some of the other universities that really kind of only take you if you've been through the conservatory stream, or what have you, they just sort of said, if you want to play come audition, first, show us what you can do. And then we'll teach you all the back end, after you know, so. So I was kind of on the edge because I'd had quite a I had a fantastic teacher in high school, you know, but but wasn't quite there. So still needed to do more training, you know that you're training and theory and harmony and all of that to come. So they call that sort of like a zero level to get up to level one to be with everyone else. But but in terms of the singing, I did have contract wasn't really, it really wasn't much. There's only about two semesters of vocal lessons with Jerry Brown, who was their vocal jazz instructor. One of the things I'm really grateful to her for it is she she just gave me a lot of opportunity to get onstage, which I think I really I really needed at that time. As you can see, that's the part that I've hung on to like, gosh, don't ask me any harmony theory now that's long forgotten, but it's still performing. And, and then after that I did. I did a musical review from point and there was a really great vocal coach there as well. So she I mean, the coaching was quite specific to the songs for the show. But she was she came from a musical theater background. So that kind of helps with all that. Belting and being on stage and having to really, again, like project and in a very much like onstage performance way as opposed to recording or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it is so different, isn't it? It's yeah, two completely different things. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of the music that you do, I know, I've seen that you write your husband and yourself right together. And you do have this, but I think the way I can't remember how you worded it now on your website, but it was really clever. It's like you could take any style of song and turn it into your own basically, is that how you look at when you're, you're doing your comments. That wasn't how we started. But that's very much Where to now that we've seen too, just in general, I think I think YouTube has been great for for that for introducing the general audience to kind of the magic of reinterpreting you know, reinterpreting styles, so, especially groups like postmodern jukebox, and we're big fans of scary pockets who do funk covers of whatever, you know. So we've found in recent times, that's gotten a lot of traction for us. And it's also cool because when we spent a decade basically just playing pop music, and lots of songs that we love, and it was, you know, full on big songs, Sweet Child of Mine and Highway to Hell sometimes and all these kinds of things. And now we don't have to lose that repertoire because we can translate it. So we do funk version of sweet child of mine, we do a jazz version of, you know, you shook me all night long. And, and, and sort of, you know, all kinds of other things. And so it's a lot of fun for us, I find in that way, it's a more creative process than it used to be where we were just sort of the cover band who had to, as best as we could reproduce what was on the record. You know, that's what we kind of did for a long time trying to bring life to the album version, but but it was pretty much you know, in the box, and it's not so much now. Yeah, that is good. Because like, I don't, obviously, I don't know what the audiences are like in Dubai, I can only speak from my, my tiny little town, but my sister and I had a lot of experience singing in bands, my sister more than me, but, and I did a lot of covers as a soloist. And sometimes your audience just wants to hear the songs that they know, done in the way that they know. And it can be really challenging to get them past that, and to push them a little bit. So it sort of can be hard to know, like, unless your audience is ready for it can be really daunting to try and put in something else and even like putting in originals is like, you know, is that you can sort of relate to that very much very much. And, you know, the audiences in Dubai are high maintenance, I find that way. They're great. And they love live music. And we, I mean, we have a career as purely full time performing musicians, you know, we don't have other jobs we don't teach, we're so lucky. This is what we've been able to do for 16 years. But at the same time, I think that demands are such from us, the as you said, like if it's Hotel California, just play the solo, don't do anything else they want to sing along, maybe they know this solo, you know, they need to hear it as they know it. So there are some songs where we just kind of were like, we're not even gonna attempt that, that you guys just you need it the way you need it. So that's fine. But actually, it's been surprising that they've been as open as they, as they are to hearing different versions of things, we find there's very few opportunities where they're really open to hearing things that they don't know like in that sort of why we don't one of the reasons why we don't do more original music here. The other reason is we have two small children. We got like no time or brain space to write anything. But also there really isn't the opportunity for that you just and you know it's hard when you're playing and you see everyone's eyes kind of glazing over. Yes, I know that feels like you feel like I've got these people they go and really good and then you put in you think I'll take a chance now putting this out and then it's like dammit, I want to stop halfway through despite all the fire alarm. Oh, it's funny, isn't it it was the story that drew me in. Hell you were so inspired by the man with a Viking didn't know it was just you using views and trying to confuse So you mentioned that the two small children How old are your children? So we have two boys who is four and a half and Hendrix is two. Oh, I love it is a great night. Oh that's good. We figured we have to get away at least we're both your parents are musicians. Yeah. Do something a little little left to center it to each night. Yeah, it's almost like it'd be a shame if you did it. Right. So did they like they enjoy sort of hearing you guys playing the guitar or singing at home? You know what, it's funny actually, we don't do nearly enough playing at home. I think that that's one of the for us. One of the hard things about maybe gigging as much as we do you know, and I hate to say there's anything hard about it because I know we're very blessed but like we're we're tired during the Ha, we're good. So I know other people will say, Oh, you must just grab a guitar and sing along all the time. And I'm just, I'm just trying to keep it quiet. And I talk too much during the day, because I gotta go work tonight. You know, when we do, they love it, obviously, they're totally exposed, you know, there's instruments around, they can play what they want, they can sing a lot. We, during COVID, one of the things we did to sort of stay in touch with people is we started live streaming, it was new for us. But we were locked down here in Dubai. And like, when we had our lockdown, it was locked in a locked down, like we did not go outside of the apartment for 35 days, at one point, everything is very delivery oriented in Dubai, even before COVID. So it was quite easy. So you can still get, you know, your medication or groceries or whatever, it all came to the door. But so we were struggling with being trapped in the house at the time, I was four months pregnant and you know, being trapped together with your husband and your two year old. Boy, it was like, Okay, we were feeling really lonely. You know, so we thought, let's try live streaming. And it just got a great reaction. And we realized, actually, that we'd spent so long making music and traveling for people all over the world, but not are our families and our, our people at home because what we do go home for our one month of holiday. Most years. We're like we don't, we're on holiday, I know, I need a break. And I'm what we used to play in a band, it was always really loud music six days a week. And vocally, I needed a massage, you know, so I could do the next 11 months, that kind of thing. So, so those people just, they don't know, they don't know what we do. So our family and friends were just tuning in in droves, you know, and people also to have their own, you know, lockdown of whatever degree. So we found, especially people who are alone, so, you know, kind of in the moms category, but a lot of these are women who live alone, who were really, really isolated. So being able to come on and see us and and we started bringing Bo on and then it was like, forget it. Like we felt like we played a 55 minute, like opening act. So they didn't come on for the last five. You just have people chiming in, in the chat going to have the open arms. And other people like No, no, it hasn't come yet. Okay, like whatever, like we're just the warm up. But this was lovely. Yeah, it was great to see that, that he had fans. And it was a way to, for us to also share what we have, like it's so we kind of got released, you know, into the wild, maybe sooner than in Canada or the UK. So we were back out and doing activities. You know, before people there were. And so then actually, we sort of started this whole new feature of also just filming the activities that we did. So if we went we took to the or to the aquarium, or we went to the pizza or just rode the metro or whatever. We just filmed them. And it was just kind of, you know, life in Dubai, and he would come on and he would narrate the whole thing, which people love. So he tell him, you know, if we went to the petting zoo, and all that, so yeah, he was super into that. So it's a bit sad that now that we've gotten busier, we don't have the same kind of time to do that. Because I think it was a really special features special time that we ended up doing. Probably about 100, like full hour or hour, it became an hour and a half because an hour wasn't enough, you know. And we played games, we did like a quiz show, and we did all kinds of stuff. I'm disappointed because that would have been amazing. Our Australian friends did have trouble turning it because it was like 12 It was midnight or one in the morning for you know, maybe my nurse friend coming off shift at the hospital. So you catch a bit but that was awkward on is that oh, yeah, I could certainly relate to that. Like, you know, you're doing it for yourself because you need something to keep that creativity sort of going, you know, but yeah, like you said the the upside of that is people on the other end are getting so much out of it. So yeah, my news for Don Yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, it was good. And it's it was really nice to that over the course of the probably about 18 months that we ended up doing it You had to it was kind of starting at just about two, not even two and a half. And so that for me now has been such great memories to preserve to really see him growing. And you hear him singing, and he's singing more in tune as the time goes along, and then his baby, and I'm getting more and more pregnant, you know, and then his baby brothers, and then his baby brother is coming now and singing when we do you know, the two of them sing together and all that. So it's been, it's been really nice to be able to share that with with people for whom it's that's also really meaningful to them. Yeah, it's a very small, but very important and significant audience. Yeah. Well, that's lovely. That is, it's a lovely little snapshot to have, isn't it of that period of time in your life yeah. How did you go singing when you were pregnant? Did you find you your breath was affected, like the diaphragm and all that from having this baby? Good times. For out of breath. And super out of breath. Like, both times, actually, I think I was more out of breath in my first trimester than I was at the end, you know. So that was, so when I was pregnant with Theo, we were actually still on our hotel are the very last of our hotel residency gigs. So it was here in Dubai. But it was still three or four nights a week, nightclub Smokies still jumping up and down that kind of thing. Still being expected to do shots with people like I just had to constantly be making excuses for why more I was telling people that I was pregnant, you know. So that would be jumping up and down still having to do, you know, Highway to Hell. And whenever that was tough, that was tough in that sense. And I think once you start showing and you're pregnant, it's, then people understand, oh, yeah, okay, well, you're going to take it easy, you're not going to jump around so much. So then just my feet were killing. But with deal I performed up until so this was 2017. So I performed up until two days before he was born. Because he came three weeks early. Yeah, I was it was supposed to be my last go. And, and even had my friend, our great friend who's the drummer at the time, and he said, you know, you better take it easy, because you don't want your water to break onstage. I think it's totally said as a joke. And it didn't, but it did 20 hours later, like it nearly did. And I thought oh my gosh, it just would have ruined that status. All the cables, like I could just imagine everything's covered in like goop, you know? Yeah, so I did my last show. And then he was born less than 48 hours later. Was it supposed to be like that, but anyhow, he had other plans. So that was, it was great. Like, actually, I love being pregnant and still singing, I felt really good. I felt really healthy. My feet were sore all the time. But But aside from that, the guys I worked with, were super supportive, you know, and, and people loved it, too. You know, we like we are played at Hard Rock Cafe at that time, which is a very, very much a family venue out here. And so you just have women coming up all the time and and remembering their pregnancies. And it just felt really wholesome, kind of like family, family values sort of thing. And that was definitely my plan being pregnant with Hendrix too, but you know, COVID can kind of hit when I was about four months pregnant. So So one of the things they did here in Dubai is in addition to the lockdown then even when we were, you know, kind of free to go out again, there were still really, really tight restrictions on entertainment for quite a long time. So. So even though I was ready, I was like, you know, we've been out of work, went back at it, even though I'm seven months pregnant now or whatever. I couldn't and so, so then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gigs that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it though physically like we did you you must have Like, good birth and everything like good after, or was it like really? I did, like I really, you know, I had great pregnancies and the actual deliveries were a little bit tough at times I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like convinced showing us on this Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage, everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said Hampshire, you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby, like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit. My feet were so swollen. And I thought, you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can. Like, I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just, I couldn't even put my feet in anything. And so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is, please, everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah. But, but I got there. And I really, we, you know, we played three sets. And I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna faint. Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea. I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches. So I couldn't sit. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want a stool. I'm like, no, no, no stool, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like cling on to the mic stand for the first few sets. But you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. So everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see as you know, we've been six months since we've been there. Because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually the third set, good. The third set was better and it was kind of okay, well, this is the power of music that what it can actually do for all of us. But oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Ah, I'll take my hat off to you. Honestly, that's that is amazing. Good on you. Was there ever any question in your mind that you weren't going to do it though? Did you ever think? No, I just No, I cannot do it was like that. I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it. It's happening. And you know, I will say that, like six months of unemployment is a really good motivator for that, too. You're just like, yeah, no, no, we need to start having the ball of finances you know, ball financial ball rolling, like ASAP so, yeah, I'm gonna get on stage. Now when I look at it. I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're a crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Good. Take up drinking is Elton cloud syncing, trial fun and give thinking, wow. Get out and founded by Anna less than wrenching. You go up to your head. Do them. How long did were you away from the station before you came back? Four weeks, maybe four weeks? Five weeks? Yeah. It took it took longer. I will say at that time. But I felt good. You know, I felt like I was ready to be back. But of course the first time. I just couldn't imagine the legit sticks of having to leave him like it wasn't even necessarily that I was nervous to leave him with somebody else. Because of course, like, free COVID, right, he was kind of everyone had helped him and everybody, you know, we used to just like people cough, germs all of our babies all the time. So, you know, that was okay, I was comfortable with that. But I could barely figure out like how to get out of the house, in under four hours, you know, when we would have a doctor's appointment? Like I would literally be preparing for that. Hours and hours ahead of time and still be late all the time. You know, I think one of the the differences too is I was breastfeeding exclusively. The he didn't do any auto feeding for the first two months. So that too, I was just kind of like, how does that work? How are they gone? So actually, the first gig that I did with Theo was one that had come in, and it was in our neighborhood. So it was like 10 minutes walk from the house, it just happened. And I thought this one I can do, you know, I can live and it was one that had a kind of a strange pacing for the evening. So in the middle of the evening, there was like a one and a half hour break. And I thought I can do that. I'll just run home, like in my show clothes, and then feed my baby and then run back to the gig and then come back after. Yeah, so it just kind of worked out that that was one and then you know, quite quickly realizing I have to make a compromise somewhere like I can't just be exclusively breastfeeding. If I want to also be on stage I have to be able to be away for four gigs. So but that's a hard, a hard, you know, thing to work out in your head the first time whereas then by the second baby, I was more comfortable with the idea of bottle feeding and then it was easier to step away. Yeah. Oh, good on you. That is awesome. Like, I'm so impressed by that. I'm gonna put a round of applause sound effect through that. But I will tell you on that gig, which was a bit of a venue that anyway, I was very dark for a reason, let's just say and I was literally in the bathroom, like, you know, pumping milk at one point and watching a cockroach crawling across the wall. And I thought, Here I am making food for my baby like I'm trying like I have the hand sanitizer I'm trying to keep everything is getting there's just a cockroach crawling across in front of my eyes. I thought oh my god, what am I doing? But having said that, yeah, exactly. You know that they they survive like, I don't know, I think we get really scared that they're not going to survive without us. And then when they do you go. Oh, actually, this is great. What else can I do now? Let's meet Well, I did anyway. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Sean. Stone, opposing forces. And predictable unknown. Is you the sound? Man, I'll see you on Monday. Was it important to you that you got back to your pre I want to say you pray baby life, because it's never the same, but holding the things that are important to you. You're performing you're singing? Was that like, the top of the list? This is me. I'm going to get back to this as soon as I can. Yeah, very much. I'm, you know, I'm a relatively old mum, as they you know, as they go. So, I was 39 when I had the Oh 42 When When I had Hendrix, and one of the reasons that I hadn't started a family any earlier was that I was the bandleader like I, and the dynamic I think in the band because Felix, the musical director, and I was kind of all the admin bandleader side of things, we were very much Mom and Pop, you know, in kind of the structure of whoever we worked with. So we'd work with basically like five to seven piece bands. And for the most part, like, I felt like those people were my kids, you know, kind of dealing with the feelings and drama and scheduling and making sure everybody had clean clothes and you know, that kind of thing. Because also too, when you're traveling that as a whole other aspect of you know, there are a whole other host of issues that come up where you're kind of like living with people and they're living away from home and all of this so sometimes it was a lot to handle and I thought there's no way I could have a real baby that I need to take care of where this band is my baby, you know, and I also for myself, I If I didn't want to not be able to do everything that I was doing, and, and I knew having a baby would change my life, and I knew that there would be compromises that had to be made, and I was just not in any way ready for that. So, for that reason, too, it was really important to me to perform the whole time I was pregnant, you know, kind of up until the bitter end, it was like, I'm still, I'm still doing everything that I could do, you know, with the exception of bending to plug in cables, to a point where I just cannot get down there. I and so then after baby, it was like, Yeah, I'm back, I'm back. Nothing has changed, you know, of course, everything has changed. But that I really kind of had like a death grip, I think on that element of my identity. And that is, the thing that I think I struggle with most really, is I still get really frustrated that I'm not able to do all the things that I used to be able to do, there was a moment where I was thinking maybe that I would have to even give all this up just because of so unhappy with how that all had gone, it kind of coincided with just sort of what happened in the market here in Dubai, you know, for such a long time, Felix and I had been leading a band. And then some of the people we worked with, left the band because they wanted to move on. And also just in the market, the budgets just got a lot smaller. So all of a sudden, there weren't gigs for five or six people, it was no Oh, to Navy, we can stretch to three. And so I was left feeling. And I know it's an all makes sense, but you know, really feeling that I took my hands like off the crank to have a baby. And it all fell apart. Just like I knew it would, you know, and and it was. And so I felt like a lot of that was my fault. Like, we would have still had van and we would have still had gigs, we would have still been just as like, busy and happy had I not done this, you know. And so that took me a while to get over and to sort of you know, it's not all about me. Like there were also other factors at work just like the economy, that's not all my fault. Yeah, yeah, how you would feel like that, yeah, it's very high. And it's having to kind of work my head around to, to appreciate and, and adapted to what we do now. So. So that was a thing kind of as things shrunk, you know, we sort of went six, five, all the way down to it just being feeling SCI. And and then the gigs changed, you know, and COVID was a big part of that, too, that we've, you know, we were lucky enough for most of the last two and a half years to actually have that live entertainment has been allowed, there was about 10 months where it was, you know, kind of band completely. But because Felix and I were now a small unit, we were more affordable. And because we also moved away from playing the pop music, the B student big band. And instead, we were doing these, like, Jazzy, you know, covers but still have pop music. We found that there were a lot of and also to one of the rules that they only brought back fairly recently is that there was no dancing allowed anymore, because they didn't want people kind of like being close together mingling. So restaurants were allowed and restaurants could have music with the tables had to have social distancing, you know, and all of that. But then actually, we found ourselves really well positioned because we could just set up husband and wife like in a little corner and play these songs that would still have people sort of dancing in their seat, you know, by not getting up it was all at a quieter value. It was actually really popular, you know, and the other things that came with being in a restaurant like gigs that start at 730 I want to be in bed before midnight. Definitely. Certainly, because you know, I have to get up at six o'clock in the morning. No, and there's none of that, you know, slip until all hours so. So I've worked my way around to really appreciate it but it mentally it's there are times there has been a really hard slog you know, and it's probably been about three years of lots of talking to myself and re The assessing if I'm happy with where things are and where they're going, yeah. Well, I mean, it's not to say that there were, you know, not moments of serious self doubt. And, and us really questioning things, you know, even even at the very beginning of COVID, where they were closing the airports, right, you know, and, and gosh, our prime minister on TV, say Canadians come home, that was exactly what he said. So, of course, our parents are like, get on a plane and come and, and, you know, and we're just going well, do we, though, but we have we live here, you know what I mean, you have an apartment full of stuff. It's not just, it's not like we're on a holiday, you know. So that was a hard decision to sit tight and say, Okay, we're going to stay here. And staying in a place where, you know, there's no, kind of like social safety net for foreigners here. So there's no employment insurance, there's no child, like, kind of welfare thinks that you're on your own. So we had to just try to, you know, tighten our belts manage our savings to make them last as long as they, as they could, you know, borrow money when we had to, to get through it. And of course, the whole time, you're thinking like, is this it? Is this just the end? Because that was one of the things that was so hard about COVID to it was, maybe this is the end forever? Have in person performances, like the repairs were like, is this? Is it just all gone now? And if so, what are we hanging on for like, then we need to be pivoting and learning to be accountants, like, this is what has to happen. And so if they're, there have had so many long periods of just not knowing what the hell we're doing and what the hell's going on. Now, of course, in hindsight, like we see, okay, no, we were, we we made the right call to is to stick it out. And stay here, I think, actually, one of the big factors that, you know, factored into a stain was that I was pregnant. Because it was also I don't have a doctor in Canada, you know, my doctor is here, the quality of care is, is excellent here, and it was still really accessible, you know, whereas in Canada, they kind of like, locked everything down. And my sister was pregnant at the same time. So we really, so I have a nephew who's only three months older than Hendrix. So we really were kind of, you know, compare and contrast, like through the whole thing. And she was having tele health visits, and I'm like, no, no, I still go in for my, you know, twice a month ultrasound. Like, I'm still allowed to do that. So you know, I think that live streaming was really great to show us that we have a another way of, of reaching people. But I feel like it's not over, I feel sort of that, like our deciding is not over, you know, we really feel like we're here. We're here for the immediate future. But also, I personally know that I'm left with a lot of anxiety and kind of, like a form of, you know, PTSD, almost just the stress of the insecurity of the last two years is, is something that I really struggled to shake, to, to feel secure. Again, in as secure as you ever feel when you're a musician. I mean, I've spent the last 16 years of life on contracts and having like, zero, real financial security, you know, as many artists, you know, that's our life. Right. But this has added a whole like other layer to it, which is kind of permanently stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And that's thing. It's so it's so unknown, because it's like, I know what you mean, like, it's winter, next gig winds, you know, in normal times, but then it's like, Will there ever be gigs? Like, it totally changes the whole way? That you think about the whole thing, so yeah, I can I can empathize with you there because that's, yeah, and that's thing. It's COVID Still ticking along like things are still happening. And yeah, we just we have no idea where it's going and what's going to happen and yeah, it's full on in it's been a really, it's been a crazy time to be alive. You know what I mean? Like it's it is one of those hopefully once in a lifetime occurrences, you know, like a war like, something like that, that this is is you know, the thing we'll talk to our grandkids about, basically. Yeah, and, and, um, yeah, I'm still not sure how we're the lasting changes, you know, that this This will make like, one of the things that I was sort of surprised at is how quickly kind of the online side of things really like online performances really dissipated once in person performances were a thing again. Which is great, because I mean, hey, we're like, that's our job is to be in person performers were in the room. But, and in a way, it's fantastic. Because it thinks that it shows me that there's nothing that can replace being in the room with the people making the music, you know, it's just, you can't put that on a record, you can, you know, put that on on a screen, it just you have to be there. So good for us. Because that means people still want to see us in person, but also to is kind of stressful, because it's like, well, then, is there ever really a plan B for for us? Or is it always because certainly when we were live streaming, we made a little bit of money, but it was, you know, dribs and drabs, it was not like enough to sustain us so. So that's kind of where I am now. It's just to feel that over the long term, not sure how much longer we'll be able to kind of get away with doing what we're doing, you know, because if ever to the market changes again, and we're now not so well positioned for what people want, then that's tough. So I mean, this is like a story of all you know, performance artists also sample if you lead with me, me, me love you you know, that I find it Oh, so hard to let go. Change my mind when you say in your sweet baby one of the topics I really like to talk to guests on the show is about mom guilt. And I put I put it in air quotes because I recorded an episode with an artist this morning who had to Google what it meant because she literally did not experience it didn't know what it was. And I thought that was awesome. That's the first person I've met that hasn't known. So I'm really that was awesome. So that just goes to show the broad range of experiences that we have with this thing. What's your thoughts? Oh my gosh, I'm the polar opposite of the poster child for Mom You're getting both ends of the spectrum today. Yeah, yeah, no, mom. Definitely. I mean, I have all kinds of, you know, anguish about things. You know, I have like, bandleader guilt and all this kind of things, too. So it's just another one that I add to my my collection. The mom guilt. Yeah. Where does it hurt? Oh, my gosh. It's, you know, I was listening to to yesterday, I was listening to the podcast you done with Ms. Coleman. And she was talking about it really for her seems to revolve around time. And I think that's, that's absolutely yet you know, feeling that that I'm not giving my boys enough time or feeling that I'm not giving them quality time. That one is, you know, certainly is trouble. I see. So I kind of the logistics of it. Right? You know that our gigs do finish even getting home at midnight, but you know, you're not to bed for 130 or whatever. So when someone comes because they've wet the bed and then the other ones crying the knees. So you know, I mean, there's lots of nights where we're still, you know, maybe up three or four times. So then starting the day at seven, it's like okay, well we've had like five broken hours of sleep, you know, and my husband and I share duties and he's up, you know, with as well. But still we both just find really, really tired in the mornings a lot and That's hard. So then I think I see too that with Hendrix, I don't spend the same time there's a lot more TV. A lot more TV. Do it would be like 12 minutes, one little episode, you know that we're trying to get off and we're working on colors and stuff to with Hendrix, I'm like, Dude, how do you not know any of your colors? Like how do you not know these animals? Right, because no one has taught us that that was the kind of thing with do that I would sit and I would do. And now with two of them, I'm just kind of like, oh, the TV's just gonna have to teach you something today, because I don't go to the realities. The reality but I feel guilty about it, you know, I feel guilty that I'm not kind of there for my second one, in the same way that I was for the, you know, for the first child. And, and it's, it's hard. When we get busy with work, you know, we're lucky to have maybe six or seven gigs a week, regularly, you know. So sometimes we'll only have one night off. And that's hard, where I'm giving them their bath and putting them to bed once a week. And just the feeling that like there's another woman who I love and trust, but somebody else does this all the time, who gives you nighttime cuddles. So those periods are hard, but they're also kind of necessary, sort of the reality here, like, in general, there are summer season, which is about five months long. workwise is quite quiet, you know, there's less tourists, a lot of the families that are here, if they can, they, they'll take their holiday, so they might be gone back to Australia or Canada or UK wherever for two, perhaps two months. So then they're not here eating in restaurants and going out. So we do have a lot less gigs in summer than we do in the over the winter period. And that's hard to the the feeling that we have to take all the work that we can get, you know, when it's offered. I don't find that we have a lot of balance, like either summer, and we're kind of, you know, to in our fingernails a bit going, Okay, hope we can we make it by the end of the month, or it's winter. And we're just like, you know, out every night kind of thing, just just working all the time not feeling dizzy the kids? And if so, and then I think it translates into other ways, right? You know, maybe there's too many trips to McDonald's or too many little presents, or little, you know, ice cream or whatever, because it's like, my, I feel like I don't see you enough. So I just want to just want to treat you. And there are other options. You know, like here in Dubai, there's quite a nanny culture, they don't really do babysitters, and of course, because all of us, like kind of the entire population are away from our families, right? You know, like, everyone has come from all over the world to work here. So you don't have sisters and aunts and uncles and brothers who can watch the kids, you know, so you have a nanny, and they're with you, all the time. And for many people, it's not our situation, but many people have many live with them that and we often have people saying that, but if you had your nanny live with you, she would get up in the morning with the kids and you know, hey, we think about it, but also to the Trade Office, then then I do lose that part, I do lose that access to my, my kids. And you know, there's a part of me, which feels like, if certainly if we had kids in Canada, we'd be doing it all on our own, you know, we would be up and we would be tired. And we would be just like everybody else, you know, and so trying to still may have that kind of Canadian life, but at the same time, the reality is like, I get to bed at two o'clock in the morning when I'm tired when I wake up at 630 So there's no escaping. Yeah, but that's the thing that I like. I haven't heard you say once in this, even though there's always stuff I mean, obviously thinking about, you know, the how the market is gonna go but you're not saying that I don't want to do this anymore. Because of, you know, the sacrifices, the compromises that I might be making with my children. You know what I mean? Like it's, this is what is important to you at the end of the day, you know, this is this is you This is in in your heart and soul and yeah, I hope I'm getting Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I quite recently have asked myself, you know, if this is if this is right for if this is right for me, if this is right for us, and it's sort of that feeling of a lack of balance, you know, I would like to feel more balanced and and I mean, also to that logistically, the reality of it is just financially, it makes more sense for the two of us to be going out and gigging. And for us to then hire a nanny than for me to stay home. But that's not the whole story, too. When I see things like, Oh, my two year old doesn't know his car, you know? And I'm like, well, maybe I need to be here, and be teaching him those things. And, and is that what's right for us now? And also to in the sense that, you know, we think someday we'll move back to Canada, probably, you know, in the next five years. And we know, we can't do this, when we're there. So there's also that to have, do we need to be putting in place, whatever kind of work, things need to happen, you know, does it obviously involve some kind of retraining or something? And is that what I should be spending my time doing now? So that we're kind of ready for the next step. But, you know, as he said, it's kind of the, it has always pulled me back in like, I can't imagine not putting on the makeup and doing the hair and going out and, and making music with Felix, you know, it's the the reason that we're that we're together. You know, he'll he'll occasionally have other gigs with other people. And as much as I love it, and I'm happy for him. And he needs more variety than I do. Like, I'm like, No, I'm happy to just work with you to know exactly what I'm doing to have someone who I rely on 100% I don't need any kind of instability. In my life. I'm good. I got it. Whereas he'll go, he's happy to jam and happy to take on new projects and learn new things like No, no, I don't have any of that desire. But when he does things, I'm happy for him. But also there's part of me that, like, it really doesn't like that, you know, that he's gone off and is having a life without? Yeah, I mean, we literally in 16 years, like we pretty much, you know, kind of spent every minute together for that time. So yeah, it's if for better, it's far better for us. You know, it really it really is. No longer gonna backtrack, just exam that you chose wrong. Now you go back and get over it Yeah, was gonna ask you what you've got coming out. But I know, I've I don't know how to ask that. Because you've got gigs all the time, haven't you? Like? Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, because I had a look at your page of all your shows. It's like, oh, my gosh, you like that. And then, so like, it's just, it just flows on and on and on. Like you said, you have this portion of the year where it's full on full on full on, and then it's the little break time. So yeah, you just sort of ride the waves. And, yeah, it's like, you know, we describe it as a marathon out here. Right? You know, because it doesn't ever really stop. And which is great. Is you know, as you said, like it does have high season and low season to it. So, for us coming up we're getting into this season probably won't start really full on until October. Which is okay, because Theo is starting school in September. So he's never been to nursery, he was kind of about to go to nursery and then it was COVID. So then he stayed home for that two years with us. Which is a whole other like, Mom, thing my sister laughs at me, she's really okay with sending her eldest to school and I just choked all the time. I'm like, buying, you know, glue sticks and googly eyes, like crying in the grocery store. filling his school list. I, you know, he needs a uniform and I'm kind of dreading going to the store. I just don't I can't like deal with seeing him in that little uniform for the first time. So yeah. So I think actually, it'll be okay that he, you know, we'll start that and we're not super busy yet. So we'll have time to kind of transition him into that and transition us because he has to get up even earlier for us to drive him to school. You know, Oh, it's so I'm nervous about it. Because I think like, already, I'm tired. And already, it's not amazing for me, you know? How is that going to be when now we have to be up even earlier five days a week. And then when I have more gigs, how's it all gonna work? So I'm, I am really nervous about this fall season, coming in and figuring that we will just have to figure it out, as you know, as it goes along. But for us, musically, we have just started our first gig in like, four years with a full band. So that's been exciting for us to actually have, you know, bass, drums and keys again, because most of the time, and although we say most of the time as a duo, Felix is the band. So he is a guitarist, but he does all the drum programming, we work the drum machine that he plays Live, and then he does bass loops and guitar loops on top of that, and then he's doing back vocals, and he's saying the vocals, I'm just singing. I'm playing a little bit tambourine here and there. And then doing all though, like, admin stuff on whatever social media time. Yes, I do. That's all me. But, but so to have a full band is musically is really exciting again, logistically is difficult. It's kind of like, oh, yeah, and people's scheduling and issues and all this. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so it's great that we're working on that working in a new venue to so getting adjusted to, what did they want? What does the audience want? What do we think is going to work? We've just been asked to perhaps put together a gypsy jazz trio, which would be new for us, we do a little bit of gypsy jazz, but not like full on things. So trying to see if that's something that we can that we can manage. And aside from that, yeah, just mostly have work either as a duo or as a trio. We do have a few different keyboard players that we that we work with. And yeah, most of most of our gigs are restaurant or kind of restaurant lounge, this new full band one is the first one that we seen a long time where people really there's sort of like a dance floor space for them, you know. So that too, has meant Okay, well, we kind of need to rework and bring back in some of that repertoire that we haven't really bothered with for last few years because they weren't allowed to. Yeah. Yeah, and it'll just lead up by Christmas. Usually our week of Christmas is absolutely nuts been rammed, which is I just find crazy challenging. It's with two kids. So also trying to find time to steal like, create the magic of Christmas and, and it's Theo's birthday, he's a Christmas baby. So he's also kind of like finding a way to make him also birthday, maybe birthday party and, and playing, you know, Christmas Eve, usually we'll do two gigs. And Christmas day, we'll do two gigs. And every night of the week and everything. So it is, it's a tough, it's a tough time of year for me. I mean, you want to talk mom gills is kind of astronomical and have our nanny, you know, reading the Christmas story, and I really struggled with that this last year, you know, that we, we move Christmas as we need to, you know, like we celebrated on the day that we don't have to get up and go to a gig. So we did it on the 26th this year, but that still meant that on Christmas night, like she's putting out cookies for Santa and getting them in their pajamas. And I was just kind of all over the place that night. Like it was to the point where Felix even said to me, he said, you know, do we cancel that gig like you're this upset, you know, in the weeks leading up to it that you're not that you're not going to be able to be there and you know, it's a tough call right like these well paid holiday gigs you know, they're not at our usual rate. They're better than the usual rate and, and having to and maybe it'll be different every year. You know, maybe I won't make the same choice this year as to am I okay with her just sending photos of look, they're in their Christmas jammies. I'm sort of toggling between sets and then going okay, here we go, you know, celebrating Christmas with other people who are there with their families also too, which is just like that. You know, really hard on my heart and, and I, you know, I think maybe in later years it if we're still kicking around and doing this, it will be the kind of thing where maybe they can come and be with us, you know, on the on those occasions just be at those games. But right now there's just so little that, you know, and their bedtime is still early and all of that. So it's, it's, I know that it's better for them to be at home where they're well taken care of and she's doing as much of the tradition is as I have, like, left instructions were hard to do. But, but it's hard like Felix and I both are moms or elementary school teachers. So they had summers off, they had two weeks off at Christmas. So we both kind of have these very strong like holiday traditions of the families always did this and that and Christmas Eve was this kind of celebrating and then Christmas Day was that kind of celebrating. And for us we're just absent, you know, on those times. So find hope Yeah, find the holidays hard. But you know, in the other sense like we're still financially recovering from COVID so it's work work work, work, work work, work much as we can Yeah, you just sort of do what you can at the time that you make the decisions as you go and like you said next year you might feel different and then a year after you might feel different so it's like Yeah, going with what you need at the time. Yeah. And trying not to feel guilty I really love talking to you today. It's it's such a routine energy and I like have you got videos on YouTube where we can watch you perform, I want to watch you perform like your vibe is so welcoming and energizing is like awesome to have a say on stage. You know what I mean? What if you do want to see the videos with feel of which honestly, I swear there's like at full length shows there but they're on our Facebook page. So you can feel free to like scroll through the years. Seriously, just check the last five minutes because that's the start. You can skip ahead. It's fine. We're used to everyone else like tuning out and then coming back five minutes to the hour. I'm University thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum now tomorrow we live saw so simple if you lead with me love you used to be the one always man trying struggling still good seem so sad with you maybe. Monroe I love to also sample if you lead with me love me for me design but love you You know that I find it oh so hard to let go change when you say in your sweet baby start let's let them roll while we while we live in today in some some so simple if you learn to be with me they're gonna love you ever decide that you're gonna love you

Season 1 Special Season 1 recap Special Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts A look back at my guests during Season 1 and a reflection on the origins of the podcast. The seeds for this podcast were sown early in 2021 when I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home. I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realising that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mum who was a friend of mine and find out just how she was doing it. From them I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how other mums are doing it ! Thus the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mum, and a few dads too, over the course of these past 6 months. I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perception and shift my thinking on a number of issues, and I hope this has been the same for you. Here’s a little wrap up of some of my favourite quotes from the episodes which made up Season 1, 2021 I hope you enjoy. Connect with the podcast here https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to this special episode of The Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make that art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia, I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. The seeds for this podcast was sown early in 2021. When I had a lot of time on my hands, and more than the usual number of children in my home, I was finding it really challenging to create the ideal space which I needed to be able to make my music. Realizing that I needed a little bit of a shift in my perceptions, and perhaps a little help, I decided to reach out to an artistic mom who was a friend of mine, and find out just how she was doing it. And from then I thought, I wonder if other mums would like to hear how they're doing it. And also what other mums are doing. Thus, the podcast was born. I have thoroughly enjoyed my chats with creative mums, and a few dads too. Over the course of these past six months, I have found it incredibly interesting and insightful, having learned so many new things, about topics that I would never have learned about, and meeting some amazing people too. And I have managed to change my perceptions, and shift my thinking on a number of issues. And I hope this has been the same for you. Here's a little wrap up of some of my favorite quotes from the episodes that made up season 120 21 I hope you enjoy. What's interesting to me with hindsight, perhaps is that we'd hit this sort of point where our mothers had been the first generation of the second wave feminists. And so we'd been told a lot about what our expectations for our life could be, you know, what, that we could have it all, you know, all of those messages that that we were getting, and the sense of freedom and ambition that we all have, and should have. And then suddenly we have children and realize how compromised that can be. And that that is an age old problem and not really an easy problem to solve. So feminism or for you know, no matter how liberated you are. So the fact is we we love our children, and we want to be there for them. And our children love us and I desperately attached to us. And therefore finding space and time for something that we want to do for ourselves is incredibly difficult. Yeah, I don't know, I just it wasn't for me, not the newborn thing. I've loved their ages now, but would literally prefer to walk the depths of hell than have a newborn again. I'm not even kidding. Yeah, you can. I'd also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about. I think it's good if they can see that. Those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lining me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children. I changed I let go of it. I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So I kind of feel like you know I need with the time that I've got especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go away. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you. You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry, don't stress ratio are you here ratio me? Yeah Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before Saturday nights at shadows or little adventures I used to do back in the day you know is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mom, you have to let go of that life. Yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids law. Development and their their health and well being is above above yours Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant. You can't be unwell. You've got to be that for therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed for my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Have you feel that mum guilt? Oh, it is real is definitely I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing his job. I was like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her hour that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own. Like, where you're being critical of others, where you like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. I can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle the same time my writing have changed? Definitely. Yeah. I have a collection of songs I have a new body of work that I'm I've started recording. And it's it's very much inspired by motherhood and and relationships with my own mother and, and grief and, and yeah, identity and belonging and home. And I don't think I would have explored those themes. Pre children. I don't I don't pray children. My songs weren't all about love and breakups. You know, a number that were and then under that still I you know, but I don't think I would have been inspired to explore those really personal relationships, family relationships, had I not experienced that enlarging of your family, you know? To me, being a mum is the best thing I have ever done. It is just the biggest blessing. And I'm always it's always in the back of my head, that they're only this little months, like they're growing so fast. And it might not be everyone's cup of tea or how they want to do things. But I have just loved being there and doing that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I'd have 100 kids if I could. I'm not 100 Actually that that would. Yeah, maybe 90. If you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be Alson you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt. But I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today where I feel like I could be doing better. I should be making a different decision. I think it's I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom. Is that what they call it? Where Yeah, yeah. Are you just real? sacrifice yourself, for somebody else. And yeah, it's really interesting because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being. It's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood and, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt I just sacrificed myself. I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids, and you seem to be putting everything into the children, I know, from seeing it firsthand, through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and your wonder like, now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about, she loves, so we make time to fit her, you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life, if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion, and you've got nowhere to you know, to do it, and it builds up and you know, probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with the children and just having this double life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you. If it doesn't have you don't have an outlet. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel, some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall, he's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby, like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself, what are we going to set up so I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age, and kicking myself for not trying at least. So I said, he said, the kids, you're an amazing mum, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Because you can work in a cafe, absolutely, if that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing. Because they're learning from me, don't just stand still, because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. It's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me seeing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, and they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that, yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter, that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly, that you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around. You know, you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say I'm not a I'm not a A person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I am not that person. I work I thrive off work, I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a man is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. I mean, being a parent in general, but especially being a mom does not stop you from being an amazing musician and amazing artists and amazing teacher, whatever it is that you do. It's another thing in your life that is very, very important. And yes, your priorities change. But it doesn't stop you being amazing at what you do in that moment. And I've had people kind of, you know, second guests that I've had people be like, oh, so Oh, you're back at gigs. Oh, really? That's, that's soon? Oh, that's interesting. And you know what I just say to them, I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Actually, I think you'll find I'm playing better than I was beforehand, so that the mother guilt of putting yourself, you know, at head of your children, sometimes, I've definitely grown learned over time not to have that quite so much. I think as the kids were younger I did, but especially that like when my youngest son in high school, I was like, No, you know, what, I'm okay, I deserve to have some allocated time. And to actually let the whole family know, right? Well, this is actually something that's really important to me, and I'm going to make this happen. And it was actually really nice to see the support that they gave me to write Yeah, really, even my, my middle boyfriend, he would say, he was actually said to me, I'll be really inspiring me with the work that you're doing. And, you know, that's the biggest thing for me ever. And my husband's really supportive, as well just, you know, constantly telling me that he's proud of me, which is really lovely. That definitely helps with not feeling guilty. If I, you know, had some space and time through the week to, to focus on my artwork and to be quiet in the studio, then absolutely, that reflects in the way that I am with, with my kids in the sense that I think it helps me to be more present. When I am with them, I'm not so much thinking about that. It allows me time and space, I guess, to really focus on them. So I think they shifted from thinking that they all these different things take away from each other, but they don't they all support each other and work together. Like I said, as part of an integrated life. So that's been a big shift for me, and, and being able to shift my thinking around there. And I think it's helped me manage my expectations. I guess I have myself. And then when I found out it was twins, it was like, all the anxiety kicked in. Because I felt like, well hang on. What does that mean, for me returning to work can I return to I won't be able to return to work, you know. And then you have all the stress about how my, how's my body going to change with two it was, I felt great with one baby and I was happy with being pregnant. But then once I found out it was twins, it did really slow me and I had to really adjust to getting excited about it and not being too anxious. So I'm very lucky that I had twins. And I think that now and I love their bond and I love being a twin mom. But I didn't you know, I didn't initially I really I feel bad that I think that but I really was upset and I was really anxious. So I had pretty bad anxiety when I was pregnant actually, once I found out I think it's also about making a space for yourself. Like making art, or even just making stuff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important. As an adult when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time more. It becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an absolutely it's like mental health you know, and it's and it's so connected with looking yeah looking after yourself. And so for me it's very much part of my identity I think when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent if you are completely into the next few years being, you know, in a state of creative upheaval If you commit to that, then you know it. It changes it changes everything. You know, you can't it's not possible to to have those those sort of positive relationships without making sacrifices. How do you feel about mom guilt? I think it's very alive and well and prevalence. And I, I guess I just had to decide that I didn't care about it. I have, have actually had a lot of flack. Over the years for I think I got, I got told at one point that I was handling my children to their dad. And yeah, so there was that comment? I think I've actually been pretty heavily criticized by other local museums as being ruthless and being overly competitive and quite a lot of other things. Because it seems like a lot of people, I guess, that's not just a mum thing. That's also a an Australian thing. I think we dislike anybody that plays a big, I had had an identity, I was a health care worker. And then I became a mom, and then I wasn't that anymore. And so you know, people would be like, Oh, what do you do? And I'd be like, Oh, I'm a stay at home mom. And so they would automatically say, oh, then okay, what is your husband do? Which I'm just like, it just felt terrible. To me. It felt terrible to me. I went through an identity crisis, really where I was just like, What am I besides a mom, like, it didn't feel good to me, I felt really, really lost during that kind of transition, because I didn't really know. And like, just, I mean, I'm not saying that, like, just being a mom isn't enough. But for me, it didn't. It just didn't. I just felt lost. You know. So yeah, I mean, it is really important to me to feel like I have something that is just mine. I spend a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from families. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing with a foreign when now that I'm doing a bit more work here in that Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and can try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had and realized it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble. And, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and pay. You know, I have huge admiration for you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time. organically, disclaim all that stuff is so much different for the mother. It's just this just the ladies thing for fathers, it does change. But nowhere near as much as a mother is going through all that sort of identity is just trying to separate motherhood, you can get lost in the water murky. But it's definitely very important to have those two separate because I think you're just running yourself silly and you lose maybe a lot of that passion that you might have wither away a little bit. Because you just feel like that you've got to put family as a priority. And then this is exhausting and draining. It's easy to just go in there. One day I'll get there but I think if you can find the time to even if it's a little bit just to separate them and educate that individuality neutrality variable. It's not just that monkey. It's like, it's the wife guilt. It's the brain guilt. It's the WHEN DO WE it's very hard to make time for everybody. I think now I think more so it's important for me to realize that not to think of it as mum guilt anymore, but, but realize that I think they need to have a better version of mum. And if Mum needs to be in that creative space, then they're gonna get a better version of me.

Singer, songwriter and mum of 2 Alison Newman chats to artists, musicians, writers and other creatives about what it is like being a mother - and being an artist. Juggling the day to day, retaining your identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", the pros, the cons and everything in between Podcast Shop Here are displayed the products used by, or created by our guests. The Art of Being a Mum is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Programme. Some of the links on this site are affiliate links. If you choose to buy a product from any of our recommendations by clicking on one of those links, we stand to earn a small commission, at no extra cost to you. Books The Competition written by my Season 2 guest Katherine Collette The Mother Fault Written by my Season 1 guest Kate Mildenhall Skylarking Written by my Season 1 guest Kate Mildenhall The Helpline written by my Season 2 guest Katherine Collette Bird of Paradise written by my Season 2 guest Emily Johnson Inner Compass Mom written by my Season 2 guest Danielle Kloberdanz Life: It Is What it Is written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman How to Raise Perfectly Imperfect Kids And Be Ok With It written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman Untying Parent Anxiety written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman Art Supplies Matisse Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Liquitex Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Atelier Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Mont MarteAcrylic paints Mont MarteTable Top Easel Jo Sonja's Acrylic paints Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees and host Alison Newman Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Derwent Pencils Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Staples Matte Paper Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Micador Acrylic Paint Brushes Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Rit Dye Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Winsor + Newton Watercolour Travel Set Used by Season 2 guest Fiona Valentine Lizbeth Threads Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Legion Stonehenge Paper Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Moleskine Art A4 Watercolour Notebook, Black Used by host Alison Tech Supplies Apple iPad 10.2inch Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Apple Pencil Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Canon Pixma PRO-200 A3 Printer Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Podcast Supplies As used by host Alison Newman for producing the podcast and for vocal album recording Ambient Reflection Filter Yamaha MG10XU Mixer w/Digital FX and USB Vonyx Studio Nylon Pop Filter XLR Cable Behringer B-5 Condenser Mic Behringer C-1 Studio Condenser Mic NEEWER Microphone Suspension Boom Arm Stand, Zoom H1n Portable Recorder Hard Case for YAMAHA MG10XU

Eliza Hull Australian musician, author and disability advocate S3 Ep84 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts It is my great pleasure to welcome Eliza Hull to the podcast. Eliza is a musician, writer, speaker and disability advocate, and a mum of 2 from regional Victoria, Australia. Eliza is an award winning musician. Her music has been described as ‘stirring, captivating and heartfelt’ She is regularly played on radio nationally and internationally including on ABC, RN, BBC, double j and triple j. She recently performed her new song Running Underwater on ABC’S Q & A and performed at SXSW in Austin, Texas + Big Sound Festival. Her songs are also featured in ABC KIDS TV show ‘And Then Something Changed,’ ABC ‘The Heights’ and American TV shows ‘Awkward, ‘Teen Wolf’ and ‘Saving Hope.’ Recently Eliza was awarded the Music Victoria ‘Amplify’ Award, the APRA mentorship for women in music, the National Leadership Award from the Australia Council + Arts Access Australia + The Women In Music Award. Eliza’s debut EP, Dawn, came out in 2012, and showcased her eclectic approach to sound. Later in the year, Eliza recorded her 2nd ep, The Ghosts You Never Catch, which is full of the intensity, emotion, ad story telling which characterises her music. Eliza has her fifth studio record coming out soon, which will feature ‘Here they come’ and ‘Running Underwater.’ Eliza is making change in the music industry. The time is now for greater representation of disabled musicians, and Eliza is a huge part of this movement. As an author Eliza has been involved in 3 books, Come Over To My House is a picture book that explores the home lives of children + parents who are Deaf or disabled. Eliza is the editor and creator of ‘ We’ve Got This – Stories by Disabled Parents’ is the stories of 25 disabled parents from around Australia. The book was developed after a very successful podcast series on ABC's Radio National Eliza is a contributor to Growing Up Disabled in Australia. - One in 5 Australians has a disability, and disability presents itself in many ways. Yet disabled people are still underrepresented in the media + in literature. In the book compiled by writer + appearance activist Carly Findlay OAM, more than 40 writers with a disability or chronic illness share their stories, in their own words. Eliza is a panellist and speaker and has spoken at the Human Rights Convention ‘Free and Equal,’ for the NDIS and the Changes Music Conference. Eliza was a panellist on ABC’s Q&A. Eliza is also an access consultant for live music venues and organisations. Eliza - Website Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Eliza. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a mom would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to another episode. It really is so great to have you. Thank you for joining me. It's my great pleasure to welcome Eliza Hall to the podcast this week. Eliza is a musician, a writer, a speaker and a disability advocate and a mum of two from regional Victoria in Australia. Eliza is an award winning musician her music has been described as staring captivating and heartfelt. She's regularly played on radio around Australia and internationally, including on the ABC Radio National the BBC Double J and Triple J. She recently performed her new song running underwater on a BCS q&a TV show and performed at SX SW in Austin, Texas and big sound festival to showcase and present a panel on accessibility. Eliza songs are also featured in ABC Kids TV show, and then something changed ABCs The heights and American TV shows awkward Teen Wolf and saving hope. Recently Eliza was awarded the music Australia amplify award the AHPRA mentorship from women in music, the National Leadership Award from the Australia Council and Art Access Australia and the Women in Music Award. Eliza his debut EP dawn came out in 2012 and showcased her eclectic approach to sound. Later in that same year. Eliza recorded her second EP The ghosts you never catch which is full of the intensity, emotion and storytelling which characterizes Eliza his music. Eliza has a fifth studio record coming out very soon, which will feature here they come and running underwater. Eliza is making change in the music industry. The time is now for greater representation of disabled musicians and Eliza is a huge part of this movement. As an author Eliza has been involved in three books. Come over to my house with Australian author Sally Wilson is a picture book that explores the home lives of children and parents who are deaf or disabled. She's the editor and creator of we've got this stories by Disabled Parents. It features 25 stories from Disabled Parents from around Australia. And the book was developed after a very successful podcast series on ABCs Radio National. One in five Australians has a disability and disability presents itself in many ways. Yet disabled people are still underrepresented in the media and in literature. Eliza was a contributor to growing up disabled in Australia. The book compiled by writer and appearance activist Carly Findlay oh am and in the book more than 40 writers with a disability or chronic illness share their stories in their own words. Eliza is also a panelist and speaker and a spoken at the Human Rights Convention free and equal for the NDIS Brunswick Music Festival, the wheeler Center and the changes Music Conference. Eliza was a panelist on ABCs q&a TV show, and she's also an access consultant for live music venues and organizations. I sincerely hope you'll be inspired by Eliza to make positive changes in your own workspace, community or perhaps even your own mindset. The music you'll hear today is Eliza is owned. And you can find more by going to her website Eliza whole.com Or I've placed a link in the show notes. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and thank you again for tuning in. Oh EB legs will now move. It's just the way it's gonna be. Maybe I don't feed Why don't you want me to be all these cookie cutter version? not doing me any welcome alive. It is such a pleasure to meet you and to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. I gotta admit, I've been a fan of your music for quite a while you've got incredible voice it reminds me like of a bit like Janis Joplin with that sort of growly kind of thing you got going on. Thank you so much. He actually has a big influence in what I'm actually so nice to hear. So, we're about to you in Victoria. So I live in regional Victoria in Castlemaine. Yeah, right. Yep. How many is in Castlemaine? Is that like a big one? No, no, I don't know the exact figures. And I know that they're constantly changing. We're getting a lot of people coming to Castlemaine from Melbourne, especially during COVID, which we still are in but, you know, a little bit posted, I guess. And we're still getting that real influx of people, especially from the northern suburbs of Melbourne, moving to Castlemaine. It's about an hour and 20 minutes down the freeway and you can get an express train for an hour to Melbourne as well. So it's quite close to Melbourne, but also has the real qualities that a regional town has. So it's really beautiful. Yeah, that's nice. I just came back from a week in Ballarat. Which I don't think you're further north. I think that's right. Yes, awesome signs actually. And we have this like in South Australia, we say Castle, we don't say castle, but my mum's Victorian. So she often just reminded me straightaway when I saw this a lot. That's quite funny. So as I said, You're a singer, but you're also an author, and you're a disability advocate having disability yourself, and you do speaking. So what sort of came first for you to was it the writing or the music that that you sort of got into first. So the music came first. It was kind of the deal with my parents. So I wouldn't be able to leave the home my hometown of Albury Wodonga unless I had a uni degree to go to. And so I enrolled into a Bachelor of Communication in journalism, which I'm really glad I did. Because in the end, I've really used those skills anyhow. But I kept just deferring the course and just joining various bands and playing lots of shows, because that was really what was calling me was singing and music. I really wanted to just be a singer. And so yeah, really from the age of 18. That's what I've done. And I've done lots of various projects as a singer and performer. But now, I've gotten into more of the writing space. So I started by putting out a parenting anthology called we've got this, which is about Disabled Parenting. And I shared my own story and interviewed various other parents. And they also wrote their own stories. And then I've just completed an international version of that so with British and American and Canadian writers and interviewed those people over there, which will come out in February of this year. And then yeah, I've worked worked on a children's book, as well with Sally Ripon, who is a good friend of mine, and also lives in Castlemaine. And it was just my idea to create a book that represented various families with disability in a way that was authentic and fun and lively. And she was really on board with the idea and it was very collaborative working with Sally. I think people often question how can you co write a book with somebody but it really is a co write with Sally, because we sit around a table, we share our ideas, we go back and forth. You know, she writes a bit then I write a bit then we go, you know, so it was very collaborative and such an enjoyable process that we're working on our second book now. Oh, great. I actually had Sally on my podcast last year, and she was talking about your book, come over to my house and I thought it was great because I work in Early childhood education, and there's not very many books, I wouldn't say there's hardly any if there, if any, that use the language and make people aware of, of all the different ways families can exist and homes can exist, and to also make, to make parents aware of Yeah, of that language so that then they can educate their children, and they can be educated themselves on appropriate ways to talk about different families, which I thought was fantastic. And it's good, you know, for educators to to have the right tools to be able to communicate with children. So just find the kids kid to know everything, and they're so clever. And then then adults get their get their views into the kids heads, and they all change and it's terrible. It's so true. Can you tell us what the next book is about? Or is it a bit of a sacred at this stage? It's about the social model of disability really. So the social the social model is that the world is disabling. So that really was like a real aha moment for me when I learned the social model. So it made me think about what how is the world disabling. For instance, when I arrive at a building, and because I have a physical disability, it means if there's stairs up into that building, that's a building I can't get into. Whereas if there was a ramp up into a building, I would feel less disabled by my environment. And that really was like, Oh, wow, like, it's not up to me to change and that I don't need to be fixed. And you know, I don't have a problem and a deficit, it's actually what if we change the world to be more accessible, change the world to be more inclusive. And, you know, that can be lots of different reasons, reasons, ways. For instance, having an Auslan interpreter for people that are deaf, or having image descriptions for people that are blind, that's all the way that we can change the world to be more inclusive. So the children's book is really in a way a explainer of how we can change the world. And it's has two characters, a disabled child and a non disabled child. And it happens due to the disabled child inviting, so rather than non disabled child inviting the disabled child over for a play, and realizing that their house isn't accessible, and so feeling really bad about that, and not talking to the child for lunchtime, because they feel so embarrassed and bad about it. And then they then go to the playground, they decide that that's the best way to meet after school and the playgrounds inaccessible as well for this wheelchair, wheelchair user. And so that's when they decide that they're going to build an accessible world together. And they do that in a really beautiful way. And I guess, yeah, just to show how we can just change the world and we don't need to change the person. Hmm, that's a that's a really powerful message. That social model of disability that I had, I'd never heard it described that way. And when I've, I think it was Carly Finley that I first heard it said three and I just thought, ah, like, it's obvious, it makes so much sense. But why is our world reluctant to do this? Like, why do we have to only cater for particular people? How about okay, you know, that's fantastic. You're doing that. Because like I said, like the kids that are amazing, and get the kids keep to keep doing what they want to do, the world will change and Exactly, exactly, be fantastic. Yeah. And I think you know, the kids are the future so that I feel like it's so important that that's where we start really with changing the way the world sees disability. That brings me to a song that you performed on q&a. I'm not sure when that was actually when was that? A good question. So it's like, what year is it? It was the end of 2021. Yeah, right. And I actually watched that again this morning, because I remember when I first saw it for the first time, and it was just had me in tears, and had me in tears again this morning. But that's, that's literally, that's the description of how it feels to try and fit into a world that doesn't include you. And that sounds a horrible thing to say, but it's true, isn't it? Yeah, I feel like that that analogy of running underwater was just a way to say how heavy it can feel at times when you feel really good. A friend. But not only different when you feel like you don't belong really, and you don't feel included in a world and you feel discriminated against. And yeah, that's when it becomes really hard. I think that when I did the parenting book, we've got this it really showed that the greatest obstacles parents with disability face, it's not what happens inside the home. It's actually what happens outside the home where you face medical discrimination or people staring or inaccessible, inaccessible spaces. And yeah, so I think that it's really up to society to start in a recognizing that we are 20% of the population and that we deserve to include and be included in the world. Absolutely, yes. from you I remember when I was five, they told me the podcasts that you did, we've got this did that come after the book was that before? So it was always an idea, my idea that it should be a book, first and foremost, that was because really, it was just that I wanted a book like this to exist when I was deciding to become a parent. And I couldn't find anything out there, there was absolutely nothing. And so luckily, at that time, I saw that the ABC was offering scholarships for regional people with disability. And so I applied with the idea to make a series on parenting with disability and got chosen, which was great. And that then became, we've got this after the audio series went so well. I then pitched the idea as a book, but it was always my idea that it would be a book. So that was great. That happened. That's wonderful. Now Good on you. So you mentioned about being a parent, How many children do you have? So I've got two children. One is seven, and one is to Oh, awesome. In the midst of full on parenting, young children, yeah. Oh, that's awesome. I love that that age gap. I've got seven years between my two. Fun fun times, I've got seven and almost 15. And it's just you just feel like, I don't know, you read two worlds at once. You feel like that time is absolutely on learner and a seven year old Yeah. Have you found then that the children have fit into your career, I guess doing your music and doing your writing? Did that sort of take a break at all when you had two kids? Or was that something that you used to sort of keep going, I suppose and keep your identity while you became a mom? Yeah, I haven't. I haven't really stopped to think the first pregnancy and birth. So that was my daughter, Isabel. I think I took a bit more time off, I gave myself that break, after giving birth, I might have had nine or 10 months. I mean, there's not even that much. I've just doing absolutely nothing. But then started to make more music and released my album at that time. So that was already recorded. So record the last song when I found out I was pregnant. So I kind of felt like I needed to get that out anyway. And then with Archie who's you know, two and a half now. I took maybe six months off, and then just kept going. And I guess the way it's fitted in my life is that because I don't really worked for a person. I'm kind of freelancing with my music and my speaking engagements. And my writing. It just kind of fits around them. And that's really worked really well. So for instance, when he naps for the two hours in the day, I just get a lot done. And I think having that constraint of time has actually been really beneficial for me because it's like, Okay, two hours go. And then I took 10 I also work the other two hours of the night in the night. But yeah, sometimes it can be challenging, and we haven't used any childcare up until this point, but that's because I've got such an incredible mother in law. So at any time, I'll be able to say can you come stay we've got a really great luckily When we bought our house is a guest house at the back of the house. So she, she gets to be in her own space and come and stay. And she'll do that anytime I go away. Yeah, that's awesome having that support massive, isn't it? I wouldn't be able to do what I do without her. Yeah, yeah, I can definitely relate to that. I mean, my family here. I was thinking about that the other day, like, the times when you've got gigs on at night and or at rehearsals or anything, like, just how would you do it? If you didn't have help? Like, you just couldn't? Exactly just take for granted sometimes I think that I don't know, it's pretty important. Something I like to talk to all my guests about is this concept of mum guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because I think it's a I don't like the word, because I hate the word guilt. But have you got any thoughts about that? Well, yeah, man, it's a huge thing. For me. I think for me, it was, it's one of my way I feel it the most. So I really don't like the feeling when I'm at an airport or in a different city. And I see a mother with a child. It just like, Yeah, I'm just like, why am I not that mother? Why am I here? Why am I doing this? Like it? Just yeah, it feeds into that guilt can be really a horrible feeling. And then you kind of realize that, who knows what that mother's feeling in that moment? And maybe, No, tomorrow, she'll be going on a trip or, you know, I guess it just for some reason, you always think that you are doing the wrong thing. And I guess what I've realized is when I'm at home, I'm sometimes feeling like, Oh, I really want to do some work. And then when I'm working, I really want to be at home. I think that ultimately, being a mother makes you really feel very divided. Yeah, so it's just a constant. And I went to America in March last year, that was a big thing to go for. I went for 11 days without the kids and yeah, that was really very tricky. And only because it was such an incredible opportunity and that I had got the funding to go did I go? But they were actually fine. It was me that struggled the most. Always away. Yeah, so I'm off to the UK in May this year for a tour for the month of May and I've decided we're all going to they're gonna go as a family this time. Just make a trip of it and really enjoy it. No good on Yeah, yeah. I that it's very common thing. People talk about this. This when you when you're doing your work, or doing your art or creativity, you feel bad, because you're not with the kids. But then when you're with the kids, you think Oh geez, I really want to be guided to do that. Constantly constant battle in your head isn't absolutely yeah, thanks even half and then I say is it there's no answer to it. You just got to say different air we deal with it say call me a silver timer. Wrong. pill has becoming a meme changed? Or has it changed the way that you write your music? Approaching music? Yeah, I think that is kind of what I was saying before. The fact that when you have time constraints, you generally you cannot you can either go two ways for somebody, it could be that, that in the end is like you know, you can't be creative because you feel like you're under the pressure. But for me, it's worked really as an advantage. Because it's given me that kind of like, okay, you can't just sit here and the piano for a day anymore. And you know, maybe think of a verse, you really got to like, get it out. And so I think that that's what's helped me the most. I've also just wanted to do it really right this time. So for this next record that I'm about to put out, which has running running underwater on it, that I did on q&a, I just made sure that it was really well executed and like I looked into every lyric I can just I guess it was a bit more want to do if I'm going to be away from my kids, I'm going to leave the house and spend all that time and spend all that financial money into into my music, that I really should be putting everything into it and doing it really? Right. So I guess that's what has led to that. Whereas, perhaps before children, I just would have been like, that's fine. Like, you know, let's just experiment. Whereas now, it's very, yeah, I don't know, I guess what the word is just. It's, it's has to be a bit more professional, probably. Ultimately. I was thinking the other day, when I make my music, I always think it might be the last guy that I get to do something. Because now that I have two children, and I'm getting older, you know, so I feel like that, that I take, I have that sort of mentality, because I feel like I might not get another 10 If you know what I mean, it's good to do this, because I've always wanted to do this. I've always wanted to put this into songs I've got to do at this time, because I'll never do which sort of makes you feel old. Me I'm saying? No, I really relate to that. Absolutely. Waking up with a natural, dry yo. Promise one day do you find that you need your music and your creativity to keep you going as mum to have that outlet? is really important for you? Yeah, yeah, I think it. I mean, I feel like mothering is creative, though, as well. I think being you know, doing craft activities, or even just the way that they look at the world is really creative. And then we spent almost half the day looking at the clouds making images from the clouds the other day, and I was like, wow, we really are, they really can't be present vervain in the moment. And so I find mother mothering creative just like I find cooking creative. But I think you know, that outlet of singing for me is just something that I just always wanted to do and have always really done since I was little. And it's just an outlet. It's like a you know, if you're like, feeling like emotional or if you're feeling heightened, or you just it just expressing that enables me to feel like I'm getting it out. So what inspires you when you write your lyrics and write your songs, your obviously your, your, your disability and your place in the world do you do kids come through as well in your writing? Not Yeah, no, not really. And actually, that's a lie. The record that I released last, how we disappeared was really about moving away from Melbourne away from the city and there was one song on there that's called Valentine. And that was because my daughter was born on Valentine's Day. It actually kind of seems like a bit of a love song that you could think it was about a relationship but yeah, it's about her. So yeah, I haven't read a song about my son yet but maybe one day this particular record that's about to come out Yeah, it doesn't touch on the kids at all it's about Yeah, like unraveling my you know my true self being authentic identity my disability Yeah, just kind of things from the past as well. How old were you when you started writing? I got given a piano luckily, well, unlucky unlucky and that somebody passed away, but lucky and that they left it for me. When they did in there. They wanted somebody that was wanting to be a musician to take it. And that was I think when I was about 14, and so when the day that arrived, I sat on it and wrote my first song. It just kind of poured out of me. Yeah, and I look back at that time because I'm like, wow, the chords for that song not really quite advanced, to be honest. Maybe not so much theoretically. But it was just like, you know, angsty song that I wrote About heartbreak. Hmm, we've very close to the sinuses getting person you can you can tell me if this is appropriate, the person that passed away to have the PR, did you have a connection with them at all? No, not at all. So that's why I didn't I might have felt a bit disconnected by that. But um, it was actually just my father owned a business screen printing business and his graphic designer. That was his mother. Okay, so it was really just like a Yeah, connection to the family. And is he's a piano because your daughter is a musician. Oh, that's nice. That got got passed down. And yeah, it's still my piano. Yes. I've still got it. In the studio outside. And yeah, it's great. I still play. Well, that's nice. Do your kids play music at all really? Interested in it? Yeah. So my daughter's learning piano and we just got her a keyboard for Christmas this year. And yeah, she's absolutely loves it. So that wasn't something I pushed. Or it was like, you know, she does karate she does piano she does. So because it was like, these are this is on offer. What would you like to do? And we always check in and say, so want to go there? Because we can stop that. But not absolutely loves them. But I don't want to be one of I guess I didn't want to be the one that pushes her to do to be to do what I do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can relate to that. I tried for many years to get my son to I put didn't push him. I just say, Oh, do you want me to show you something on the piano? Or do you want me to teach your song or any my husband plays? Guitar? Do you wanna play dad's guitar? No. And then he picked up the recorder, which turned into the bagpipes. Oh, wow, there you go. And I have a feeling that he might deliberately pick something that neither myself or my husband knew anything about. So we couldn't do it. It's not like, I think as a as a you know, a musical parent you like you want your kid to experience it. Because you know how great it is, you know, you know how much you love it and how much it gives you. And you know, it's not about being good at something. I think you just want them to experience how amazing it can be. Yeah, so I was very pleased when he decided to play something. Even though it's actually, in monastery, it's one of those instruments, you just when he plays it, sometimes you will take it out in public, and people just love it. Like they just people love hearing it. You know, when it's played? Well, it's listening to the art of being a mom, with my mum, Alison Newman. So with your, with your music and your writing, do you sort of want your kids to see what you're doing? As a Liza, sort of, in addition to what they see as mum, like, is that important to you? That they they see that you? You do things other than mother? Yeah, I think so. I think that. Yeah, I think it kind of comes as a surprise in a way when they finally realize that you are an individual. I think that my son is two and a half he has no idea that I've had any individual hope for him at the moment. But yeah, it's about my daughter. I feel like she's starting to really get it. And it's yeah, it's really beautiful to for her just to witness my you know, songwriting process and the shows to come to the shows and see what I do and yeah, and in regards to your advocacy, is that important that the kids see that that you're really trying to create a world for everybody, but it's inclusive space. Yeah, I'd almost say that's more important actually. Yeah, I think that disability is is really ingrained in this home the word what it means how we treat people. So I feel really hopeful that both my kids Archie and Isabel will be just really inclusive children and I've already shown me that Yeah, I think they just like they care really ultimately about me and yeah, they just see disability as something that would have to be celebrated and not feared and yeah, I can really see that already playing. Now that's awesome. So won't do that. And I wanted to ask you do because I learned this with Sally, I must admit, I'm very naive when it comes to the world of inclusivity. And how to how to engage with people on how they like to be referred to do you like to say you have a disability or you're a person with a disability? Yeah, I mean, any, any of those. Generally say I'm a disabled person or person with disability, disabled. So that's like identity first language. So, basically, you know, for a long time, so for instance, 80s, there was a lot of words that we use instead of disability, for instance. differently, you know, I guess even just differently abled, or handicapped. There are a lot of worse terminology and some disability slurs that were used. And so people within the disability advocacy space, were fighting for people first language to remind people that disabled people were people, because we were being called so many other things. But now we're moving into a space where we don't feel we need to remind people that we're people, you don't need to say, people with disabilities just to say disabled person is that, you know, I'm proud of my disability, I'm proud of the identity. And I don't have to remind you that I'm a person. And if by, you know, saying that I'm disabled, you can see the barriers that we need to change as well. So yeah, I feel like that's, you know, it took a little while for me to say disabled person, because I just realized that I was actually holding on to a lot of ableism, around disability, I was thinking that disability was a bad word or a negative word, or that it meant that you were less than that it was something that I had really had to work through and realize that that was just because that's what I'd been shown time again, in media, or I've been taught at school, and just by people's attitudes, so it's always you know, what's wrong with you? Instead of, you know, like, can you tell me about your disability, it's always like, that kind of perceived as, as a negative, people will often say how sorry they are and how bad they feel that I, you know, I'm disabled, whereas I just feel like that actually, in the end makes me just feel worse about myself. Like, I think it's more like, I feel terrible that you live in an inclusive sorry, rather, that you live in an inaccessible world. Like I think that that's what our we need to phrase it. Like, when we really look at the world, I mean, diversity in all its forms is really what makes the world I think, a great place to live in. We wouldn't want everyone to be the same. Yeah, it's interesting that and, and this is so true in so many sectors like schooling and military, anything that I can think of right now, but everywhere in, in sort of white male culture is things have got to be the same because that's easy and you can control it, I suppose. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's very yeah my into deep, biggest Abadi projections, I'm all about sponsors, reactions and feelings this. So when you're growing up, like you said, your dad had the screen printing business, were you sort of inspired by that, to think that you could, if you want to sing, you could see, you know, people can have their own plumbing business, but you know, you don't have to work someone else or anything like that. Like was that? Um, yeah, I think maybe like seeing that. I also my mom was a drama teacher at school. So I think, you know, having her be so creative, and I was actually her student at it in year 11. So I think you're being in her classroom and seeing the way that she made art and drama, really fun and enjoyable, and you can get paid to do that. Yeah, so I think I got those kinds of skills from her. But I think they ultimately, they were being realistic as well in the way that they sort of singing for me. They saw it as something that really we're proud of It may and but but ultimately maybe something that would have to be a hobby, and I think I'll probably surprise them that as to how much I've just a kept the determination and the need going but also just how well it's done in many ways. Yeah, good on you. Because that is something that a lot of people I have on the show, they set out, like as you know, teenager, high school, they're going to make art their career. And then their parents might say, oh, you know, you know, might not pay the bills, you know, get a real job, that sort of mentality. And then in their sort of midlife of maybe after they've had kids, they go back to that creativity. And it's like, I don't care so much, you know, I mean, obviously, money is important. But, you know, enjoying yourself in your life is pretty important as well, exactly, I think, you know, you realize that as time goes on, like, how, you know, let's just be happy, instead of feeling like we have to do certain things. And I think I went to a, it was actually by a publisher, and they were looking ahead at the future generations. And I think more and more from what they're predicting, we will see young people choosing what they love instead of what they think they need to do. And it'll be workplaces that are based on what your talents are, instead of, again, what you think you need to do, or you think you should do. I love that. It gives you hope for the future, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. People. Yeah, because that's all I know, my son, yours a little bit younger, but my son's at the point where he's got to start choosing subjects for year 11 and 12, for what he wants to do when he leaves school. And I was like, might just pick stuff that you enjoy, like, know what they want to do like it until I was 40. Something to find a career that I really love. So, thankfully, I feel like we do better at the subjects that we love freely. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You got to be passionate about things. And yeah, I think that's why I didn't do very well at maps, because my brain doesn't work that way. But I just had no interest in it. That's my friend at all. Oh, god. Yeah, it's funny. Dr. B, lives one. When you go over overseas in May, is that for the international version of the book? Or is that further? Yeah, I think that's like tying that in, as well as doing a tour. So I'm doing shows. Yeah. All through much. About not much. May. Yeah. All around the UK. Yeah. So lots of different theaters and also at The Great Escape festival. Yeah, cool. But yeah, that'd be incredible. Well, I'll put some links in the show notes, because I do have international listeners. So if anyone in the neck of the woods Yeah, I'd highly recommend. Like, just say, thank you. You're pretty awesome. Is there anything else you wanted to share before I let you go? No, I think we touched on everything. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.