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4 Sarah Bailey Australian author 4 Article # 7 July 2023 By day I’m the Managing Director of a creative advertising agency called VMLY&R and in the time I have left over I’m a novelist. My role at VMLY&R sees me lead a team of 160 across our Melbourne and Sydney offices and my responsibilities centre around team performance, client relationships, commercial success and maintaining a high standard of creative excellence. I’ve been working in advertising since 2003 and I really enjoy it. I like the mix of creativity, business, and people management, and have been lucky to work on some incredible campaigns and initiatives over the course of my career. I’ve been writing seriously since 2016 and since then I’ve had five crime fiction books published, with two more contracted to delivered over the next two years. I’ve always loved to read and write and often toyed with the idea of trying to write a novel throughout my teens and twenties. I attempted starting to write a book a few times but life got in the way. It wasn’t until my early thirties that I decided that it was something I really wanted to do and so I set myself a goal to publish a book by my thirty-fifth birthday. I made a few people aware of my goal and started carving out time to write around work, on the weekends and afterhours during the week, plus I enrolled in a writing course as well as joining a few local writing organisations. Once I got started it took just over a year for me to get my first draft complete and then another year to secure an agent, a publisher and complete all of the required edits. My first novel was published the day after I turned thirty-five. I have three children, all boys. I had my first son Oxford when I was twenty-seven, my second son Linus when I was thirty and my third son Ripley five days before I turned forty-one. It’s interesting having a teenager, a tween and a newborn and I’m looking forward to navigating the full spectrum of parenting over the coming years! I’m currently on parental leave and re-adjusting to life with a newborn and two older children. I’d forgotten how primal the first few months are, and how centred on logistics. In some ways the days become smaller, and my focus feels very limited: it’s a continual loop of feeding, sleeping and admin tasks, but as was the case the last two times I was on parental leave, the creative part of my brain has kicked into overdrive, and I have a bunch of new ideas and a reinvigorated sense of ambition. I have edits due on my next book in July and another to write within the next twelve months. There are also a few other projects I’d like to explore before I return to work in 2024 so we’ll see how I go easing back into writing over the next few weeks. Typically, I write around my full-time work and whatever obligations I have with the kids. Usually this means I write on the weekends and one or two nights per week plus I try to ring-fence off at least a week over the Summer holidays. I try to use the time I have rather than bemoan the time I don’t, and consider every word I produce as progress. My full-time job is very demanding and does limit the time I have to write but I think it also provides a healthy perspective and in a counterintuitive way gives me more energy to dedicate to writing. Advertising is a very social, very inspiring fast-paced industry and I feel like being a part of it works to feed my other creative projects. Over the next few years I’d like my creative pursuits to be a bit more strategic and for the time I do have to be used more effectively so I’m working through what needs to change about my current approach to achieve this. I can’t deny that finding time to write is one of the biggest challenges in terms of my writing output, but I think that worrying about this can take on a life of its own if you let it feel like more of a blocker than it is. I’ve got to the point where I know it’s about being smart with the writing windows of time I can navigate around everything else. This might be early morning before work, in the car while I’m waiting at soccer practice, at a bar while I wait to meet a friend for a drink – anywhere I can get out my laptop really. I draw creative and time management inspiration from a lot of people, both high profile personalities and people I know in my everyday life. I love finding out how others fit in their art and I enjoy hearing about the challenges they face and what works for them. Regardless of profile, I think that most creative people juggle their projects alongside work or family responsibilities, illness or study, and while I know it’s often hard, I think this tension tends to make the end result all the more satisfying. I am lucky to have a supportive family who regularly step in to look after the kids when I’ve needed time to finish a draft or finalise edits and have looked after them when I’m at writing events, as well as a supportive manager at work who has allowed me to take the occasional day off to promote my book. The freedom this support allows is priceless and enables me to balance and enjoy the competing priorities in my life. "Having three sons I’m especially conscious of them having a healthy attitude toward working women, motherhood and fatherhood and parents making time for their art." Becoming a parent has influenced my writing in a few different ways. In practical terms I think the forced career pause of maternity leave gave me time to reflect on what I had achieved up to that point, it prompted me to think about my unrealised ambitions and to dig into what makes me happy. This self-review absolutely led to my decision to actively pursue writing. From an emotional point of view, I think that motherhood has given me an insight into the unique intimacy of a parent/child relationship and the ability to realistically bring that to life in my writing. I think parenting has also given me more scope to consider things from the perspective of a child and that also helps me to craft realistic stories and scenarios. I actively reject the concept of mother guilt and have spoken about it regularly with my older children over the years. I figured that if I openly communicated the concept with the people who were likely to make me experience the guilt, it was less likely to manifest and become insidious. As a result of these conversations my kids understand how important my work is to me, and how important my writing is to me and that I have hopes and dreams and passions, just like they do. We talk about how critical finding purpose is for everyone and that sometimes my work will mean I can’t be at a school activity or a sporting event and that’s okay. Ultimately I think that everyone is doing their best with the time and flexibility they have. I make hundreds of decisions each week about where to direct my attention and I don’t want to spend too much time fretting about the division. If I intuitively feel like one of my kids needs some extra support I lean in, but I have no qualms about letting them know if I have an important writing deadline to meet or have to travel for work. They understand I have responsibilities beyond parenting and their dad and grandparents are and we talk about what this might mean in practical terms I don’t see ‘me time’ as selfish, I see it as critical for me to be a good parent and a happy human. I felt like a fully formed person prior to becoming a parent and I don’t feel like I’ve fundamentally changed since having kids. I see having kids as a new role so in that regard I think it adds more depth but doesn’t change what was already there. It’s very important to me that I continue to work toward my goals and pursue things that I find rewarding and I feel that would be the case whether I had children or not. I ensure setting time aside for making art is never done in an apologetic way, it simply needs to be scheduled in like everything else. I talk about my interests and book ideas with my kids and encourage them to share theirs with me, I think it’s nice for family members to know what floats everyone’s’ boat and to be a part of the desire and excitement, and to share in the ups and downs, Having three sons I’m especially conscious of them having a healthy attitude toward working women, motherhood and fatherhood and parents making time for their art. I think I will always write in some capacity. I enjoy the craft and find it to be a helpful way to organise my thoughts. I particularly enjoy creating characters and stories and find the process of novel writing extremely rewarding. It’s also very time-consuming and takes me over twelve months to develop a first draft and another twelve months to get the book publishing-ready, so for this reason I’m not sure if I would write books if there was no financial payment. I’m not sure I could justify dedicating that much time to something that did not have commercial value, especially not at this stage of my writing career and considering my current financial position. "They understand I have responsibilities beyond parenting and their dad and grandparents do, and we talk about what this might mean in practical terms I don’t see ‘me time’ as selfish, I see it as critical for me to be a good parent and a happy human." My mum has always worked and only just retired this year after fifty years in the field of nursing so I’ve always been exposed to the idea that women work and can pursue a meaningful career. While my father was the primary earner it was never questioned that my mother worked. She actually completed further study and secured an additional degree in HR when I was I was young, and I remember feeling inspired by her desire to continue learning and improving her prospects in the workplace. From a young age I was aware that my dad’s job was the big job and that he was away from the home more often but I simultaneously knew that my mother was ‘needed’ at work, just like she was needed at home and the fact that she worked just like my dad did I’m sure is part of why I place a lot of value – both financial and emotional – on women being an essential part of every modern workplace. My next book, the fourth in the Detective Gemma Woodstock series, will be published in March 2024 with Allen & Unwin. I’m currently finalising the new Gemma Woodstock book and will complete various editing milestones until it’s published in March 2024. Then I’ll be working on a new manuscript, a sequel to crime thriller, The Housemate. I’m also working on a few other creative projects including a rom-com mystery concept as well as being part of a writing team on the screenplay of my first novel The Dark Lake. Contact Sarah Website: sarahbaileyauthor.com Instagram: @sarah_bailey_author BACK

Emma Stenhouse Indigenous Australian artist S4Ep100 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week on the podcast we are celebrating 100 episodes ! Hip hip horray! My guest is Emma Stenhouse, an Indigenous artisan and Ngarrindjeri Woman who is the mother of 3 children. Emma can be described as many things - indigenous artisan, Ngarrindjeri Woman, artist, weaver, printmaker, designer and sewist. Emma Stenhouse is taking the first steps on her journey in belonging and becoming connected with her Ngarrindjeri heritage. Her work is predominantly inspired by nature and connection to country using elements of contemporary art and traditional Iconography. Emma ignites the flame of love for Country in other hearts and minds. A multifaceted creative, she explores diverse practices. Each piece is braided with learning, exchange between artist and viewer, a continuation of culture - a platform for cross cultural exchange An experienced early childhood educator, Emma imparts her knowledge of culture, implementing programming including traditional indigenous creative practices guided by Gunditjmara elders. A gatherer and sharer of knowledge, she uses this to guide her own journey. She builds capacity for others to learn and develop their own connections. Emma's story spans across four decades, desert and sea; as she explores the challenges and monuments of her cultural growth, connection to Country and being an Artist. Moving through time and space, from the bush to the beach her stories are formed by her deep relationship to land and guided by strong female role models in her community. **Emma’s epiosde contains mentions of the loss of a child** Emma - website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo , my new age ambient muic trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,520 Welcome to the Art of Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:15,400 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,480 while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:25,000 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been influenced by motherhood, 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:33,440 mum guilt, cultural norms and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 6 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:39,600 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a link to the music played, 7 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:46,440 how to get in touch and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. 8 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:54,120 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at any time you're concerned about your mental health 9 00:00:54,120 --> 00:01:00,840 I urge you to talk to those around you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 10 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:08,840 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, alisonnewman.net. 11 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,400 The Art of Being a Mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water 12 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,160 which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bowendig people. 13 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:26,200 I'm working on land that was never seeded. 14 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:31,880 Hello and welcome to episode 100 of the Art of Being a Mum podcast. 15 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:37,960 It is an absolutely amazing experience to say that I have stuck with this for 100 episodes 16 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:46,600 and that I have been lucky enough to have 100 mums and a few dads hang out with me and want to share openly and honestly. 17 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:52,920 And for you guys to listen. Thank you so much for being a part of this, it is such a wonderful experience for me 18 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:59,800 and I hope it can continue. My work hours are getting a little bit more flexible so fingers crossed 19 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:06,440 there'll be more podcasts to come. But of course in the meantime please enjoy my written article series 20 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:12,120 which is pretty much the same as the podcast but it's completely answered by my guests. 21 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:19,400 So I give them the questions, they write back the answers and I collate them and put it into the website. 22 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:25,240 So you can check those out at alisonnewman.net slash articles. 23 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:32,600 My 100th guest this week is Emma Stenhouse. Emma's an Indigenous artisan and Narangjerri woman 24 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:40,200 and she's the mother of three children. Emma can be described as many things, Indigenous artist, 25 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:47,240 weaver, printmaker, designer and sewist. Emma's taking the first steps on her journey to belonging 26 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:53,800 and becoming connected with her Narangjerri heritage. Her work is predominantly inspired by nature 27 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:59,160 and her connection to country using elements of contemporary art and traditional iconography. 28 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:05,960 Emma ignites the flame of love for country in other hearts and minds. A multi-faceted creative 29 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:12,120 she explores diverse practices and each piece is braided with learning, exchange between artist 30 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:18,040 and viewer, a continuation of culture and a platform for cross-cultural exchange. 31 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:24,520 An experienced early childhood educator Emma imparts her knowledge of culture implementing 32 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,920 programming including traditional Indigenous creative practices guided by Gundurama elders. 33 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:37,000 A gatherer and share of knowledge Emma uses this to guide her own journey. She builds capacity for 34 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:44,360 others to learn and develop their own connections. Emma's story spans across four decades across 35 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:50,440 desert and sea as she explores the challenges and monuments of her cultural growth, connection to 36 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:56,840 country and being an artist. Moving through time and space from the bush to the beach her stories 37 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:03,160 are formed by her deep relationship to land and guided by strong female role models in her community. 38 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,240 Please be aware that Emma's episode contains discussions about the loss of a child. 39 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:17,000 Throughout today's episode you'll hear music from Indigenous Australians, our First Nations people 40 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,640 and this is used with permission. Thank you so much for tuning in again it is such a 41 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:29,160 such a momentous moment such a moment to be celebrating 100 episodes and I'm so thrilled 42 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:54,520 that you're here and I hope that you'll hang out with me again in the future. 43 00:04:54,520 --> 00:05:03,400 Thank you so much Emma it's a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast today thanks for coming on. 44 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:10,440 Thank you very much for having me I'm very excited. Oh awesome so you're in Western Victoria 45 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,160 in Warrnambool which isn't that far from me which is pretty exciting. I think you're the 46 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:21,000 closest person I've had on apart from people in my own town. Oh wow um yeah I've been to Warrnambool 47 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,200 I've been to Mount Gambier a couple of times um just for work so I haven't really been over there 48 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,440 to check it out too much but um I'd love to go over and have a wander around there's some lakes 49 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,640 or something close by to you guys that I want to go yeah swimming in. Yes oh yes so we've got the 50 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,320 Blue Lake which is like our water source which is like the most beautiful blue sort of November 51 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:47,160 onwards um but yes the little blue lake is that's our like local swimming spot that we love to go 52 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,840 like our family um and it's like a just a just a sinkhole in the middle of a paddock out in the 53 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:58,520 middle of nowhere and it's freezing most of the time but for a very short period of time in summer 54 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:04,120 it's really really good so it's pretty popular. I'm used to the colds um yeah I actually don't go 55 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:09,560 in the water here without a wetsuit so I'm a country kid I'm originally from Broken Hill so I 56 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:16,200 grew up um in the desert and loving the heat so it's been a real um shock to the sister moving 57 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:23,320 here and adjusting to the climate because it's always so cold. Oh yeah look I can I can relate 58 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,680 to that and you're probably even colder than what we are because you're right near the ocean like 59 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:32,760 on the ocean there aren't you? Yeah we're literally um a block back from the beach so the wind is you 60 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:39,400 know always quite strong and very chilly. Yeah now my um mum used to have a horse that used to get 61 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,280 trained over there and they'd always send us videos of the horses like paddling in the water and I 62 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:50,840 always think god that looks so cold those poor horses. I know I know I walk the beach every day 63 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:57,560 and um watch them train the horses and yeah often just shudder looking at them and the jockeys who 64 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:04,360 who do actually like get in with them and oh yeah not my not my cup of tea but it is lovely to watch. 65 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:10,280 Yeah yeah no it'd be good having that around um so do you mind me asking what what brought you to 66 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:17,480 Born & Poop? Yeah so my husband's job we um both of us are born and bred in Broken Hill um and 67 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:23,080 I guess we went on a bit of a five-week holiday along the south coast of New South Wales 68 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,600 with our two sons um in a camper trailer and kind of did the off-grid thing a little bit 69 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:35,880 and then sort of moved back to town and thought oh why are we living here like it's beautiful 70 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:45,400 um and it's home but just the opportunities um for our kids just yeah I guess it's quite isolated 71 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:53,080 to live you know um in the far west of New South Wales so yeah my husband decided to try for a 72 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,200 sea change so he applied for the job in um Warrnambool and we told everyone a big fat lie 73 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:03,080 and told them we were going to Melbourne for the weekend and we secretly came to Warrnambool and 74 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,240 spent three days here and he had his interview and we you know scoped the place out and checked out 75 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:12,280 the schools and you know wondered if it would be okay for us to live here and then yeah um 76 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,320 he sort of got the call and said you've got the job and he left within sort of two weeks and 77 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:24,040 yeah I stayed home in Broken Hill with the kids until Lucky finished high school and then we moved 78 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:31,000 yeah just before Christmas so um I haven't looked back I mean it's the complete opposite um but I 79 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,960 feel really blessed I guess to have two beautiful homes that are so different to each other 80 00:08:35,960 --> 00:09:02,200 um yeah absolutely I love that that's a great great yeah best of both worlds yeah that's it 81 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:12,360 So you're an artist can you tell everyone what sort of style of art that you make 82 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:18,520 and what sort of mediums that you use? Sure so um I'm an Indigenous artist um a contemporary 83 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:25,640 Indigenous artist so I use traditional iconography um in a contemporary way I guess and my art is 84 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:35,000 about storytelling uh and the stories that I um create I guess uh sort of speak to um my journey 85 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:40,920 um in connecting to culture but also the strong women that have um guided me through this process 86 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:49,800 um I guess I was I sort of always knew I was Aboriginal but hadn't had that really strong 87 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:55,400 guidance in my life up until I turned 40 and sort of went oh this is missing in my life so 88 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:03,240 yeah just re-established those um family connections and um yeah now really lucky 89 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:11,800 to be a full-time artist so um as far as my artwork I paint in I paint with acrylics um but 90 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:17,800 I kind of I can't limit myself I like to have a go at everything so um I've been making my own 91 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:22,200 ochre um watercolour that's sort of been happening the last couple of weeks um 92 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:33,000 with sort of guidance from lovely um Aboriginal elders and yeah I love printmaking just any 93 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,000 any sort of medium I guess um I'll have a crack at it. Well that'd keep things interesting though 94 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,120 wouldn't it like if you said I don't get bored at all. Yeah absolutely I've actually got one of your 95 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:49,880 when you said on the email that your your artwork is at Green Door here in Mount Gambier and I've 96 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:56,280 actually got um I can't remember what it was called now but it's um it's pink and it sort of 97 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:02,200 goes in an arch. Oh yep. And there was a blue one that was kind of similar and um yeah unfortunately 98 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,840 I'm not in the normal place I am for recording you'd be able to see it behind me which would 99 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:15,880 have been really cool. I'm very grateful to Annie um she's been um a wonderful support to me but 100 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:23,000 not just me I mean female artists in general she has just really helped just all I guess um 101 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,480 yeah put ourselves out there a bit more and have that sort of 102 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:34,120 just that kind support she's she's just such a lovely warm person and really genuine um so yeah 103 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,520 I do feel really lucky and I know sort of um some of the other artists who have their work there 104 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,240 feel the same so very blessed. Yeah shout out to Annie if she's listening. 105 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:56,120 Oh dear. 106 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:10,520 Were you always um into painting and creating growing up? 107 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:19,160 Absolutely I can't actually remember a time where I wasn't making something so I remember 108 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,160 being a kid and you know just doing little drawings for my aunties um 109 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:32,520 my Nan was a dressmaker so I loved to watch her sew um and that's sort of something I had to go 110 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:38,600 at I guess um in my 30s that was that became quite a passion for me learning to sew and um 111 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:46,120 getting my all my Nan's old beautiful buttons and things like that and just um developing a real 112 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:54,840 strong sort of sense of textile and pattern and surface design um and then I've yeah I've 113 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:00,120 went through another stage where it was all about screen printing so I went and you know got when 114 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:06,440 I did some courses and um yeah I had a little shop in Broken Hill where I used to run screen 115 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:14,840 printing workshops and I'd teach you know anyone I guess from sort of five years old up to 101 was 116 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,320 I went out to the nursing home and did a um we made tea towels with the residents out there and 117 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:25,000 yeah I was really lucky to I just yeah meeting people through my arts practice is like the biggest 118 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:31,160 gift ever. Yeah yeah and having that community and being able to share common a common interest 119 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:37,320 with people. Yeah absolutely yeah. So you mentioned that you're you've got your Indigenous heritage 120 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:46,120 has that always inspired what you're creating? It's always uh it's always been there in terms 121 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,800 of like I've had such a strong connection to country and nature like I think that's just an 122 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:58,680 innate thing that I've I've always had I've always been that outside kid and been fascinated in in 123 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:03,960 nature like you know just the simple things like a leaf you know the veins on a leaf they they're 124 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:10,360 captivating um you know dragonflies lizards all sorts of things I was the kid that was always 125 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,840 came home with you know a pocket full of rocks and a stick and you know a leaf or a feather 126 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:22,120 um so just having that real connection to country I think and then sort of you know in the last few 127 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:30,360 years really connecting with um with my family and learning learning about culture but on so many 128 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:37,320 different deeper levels um and just I guess allowing myself to acknowledge that knowing that 129 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:44,520 I've always had but um haven't had the guidance from family to to help me explore that. Yeah yeah 130 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:51,240 and yeah to sort of to take you into those deeper places and you talk about the um the traditional 131 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,040 imagery that you use was that something that you'd always sort of done or has that sort of come in 132 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:03,080 more since you sort of connected? I've always I've always had a like I don't know I've always had 133 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:09,400 like um like questions and are wondering like where does where do I fit in in all of this 134 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:17,320 um like growing up in Broken Hill my dad um was Aboriginal but he left so I sort of grew up um 135 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:22,280 just with my mum and my brother and we you know we lived in a commission house on the outskirts of 136 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:28,040 town um there were a lot of other Aboriginal people and families that lived in our street 137 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:33,880 but I had really fair skin compared to them so I didn't sort of feel like I fitted in there 138 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,600 and then I was sort of too dark to be you know like one of the white kids I suppose so I've 139 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,560 always had this sort of feeling that I never sort of quite fitted in and I think that's led me to 140 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:52,200 want to explore like in a lot of aspects of life just I've always had that curiosity I suppose 141 00:15:53,080 --> 00:16:04,520 and so yeah I've really um consciously been I guess just peeling back layers if you will trying 142 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:10,040 to find out as much as I can not just about my family but um you know but culture in general and 143 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:17,240 and the traditional practices and how they've um how they've evolved over the years um you know 144 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,280 things even though we're still practicing the same art forms they've obviously you know evolved and 145 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:29,080 changed so I guess celebrating that and that learning where it comes from because that's 146 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,880 I guess that's the essence of it for me like that that the traditional stuff. 147 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:42,040 Mm-hmm yeah and I think um look coming from someone that has no education sort of not a 148 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:47,000 great understanding of Indigenous culture I like I love the patterns and the colours that people 149 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:55,000 use like the contemporary Indigenous art and it's just it seems so um flippant to just say 150 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:00,040 that I like the patterns and the colours because it's such a there's so much deeper meaning in that 151 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:05,400 and the story that that that it actually tells if you know what I mean like there's just so much 152 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,360 depth in this that it's like you can't just look at it and go that looks nice you know what I mean 153 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:16,760 that would be just doing it like a disservice if that makes sense. Yeah absolutely yeah um and 154 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:23,960 that's interesting just because I don't know I think you know in the past sort of 10 years people 155 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:30,440 are becoming more aware and more connected to Aboriginal art like it's been viewed you know 156 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:37,800 around the world with such like wonder and you know the beauty of it but I guess people are 157 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,080 understanding that connection now so when we paint you know we're painting our story so um 158 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:50,920 yeah I think I think it's changing at the moment and that's really nice because that allows us to 159 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,320 connect with each other and I think you know after COVID we're all sort of like 160 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,640 leaning into that a bit more. Yeah looking for that looking for that connection and 161 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:20,920 meaning deeper meaning of life I think in general yeah people are striving for yeah. 162 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,880 So you mentioned uh your children briefly how many children you said you had two boys? 163 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:43,880 Yeah so I have um my eldest is 18 um and he's just finished high school and I feel really old but I 164 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:50,200 have an 18 year old son and can't believe it because it just happened in the blink of an eye 165 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:57,480 um and I have a 12 year old um son as well and he's just started high school so 166 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:04,680 it's that's all very new um and I just do want to acknowledge like I also have um a daughter who 167 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:11,160 would have been um 15 this year and she yeah she passed away um the day that she was born but she's 168 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:17,880 sort of been a very big part of my life and I acknowledge her I guess in all that I do um 169 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:25,400 having that experience um sort of changed me profoundly in a lot of ways but it's given me 170 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:30,360 the perspective that like life's short and if you want to do something then you just you should just 171 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:36,120 jump in and have a go like you don't really have anything to lose you like what's the worst that 172 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:40,760 can happen I feel like I've already been through the worst so yeah you know just having that 173 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,920 different perspective and and again you know that's what I guess that brings me back to like that 174 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,080 wanting to connect to family and knowing more about myself and where I've come from and 175 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:54,600 yeah I'm sorry sorry to hear about your daughter that's thank you um thank you for sharing it 176 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:01,560 with us it's a it's you know it's a heartbreaking thing to live with um 177 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,960 I guess all I can say is that I've tried to focus on the positive things that have come from that 178 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:13,000 like the beautiful relationships that I've um have with other women and families who have been 179 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:21,560 through the same thing um and just my work with Red Nose so I um I work with Red Nose 180 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:33,240 at the moment through their Reconciliation Action Plan so um their WRAP um and just anyway I 181 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,480 and anyway I can support them because that like they've been a great support to my family. 182 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:43,160 No that's not that's really lovely so for people who who might not be familiar the Red Nose um 183 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:49,800 involved with the SIDS. So they were they were they're formerly um SIDS and KIDS yeah and they 184 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:56,280 amalgamated with SANS which is a South Australian organisation as well so they provide sort of 185 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:02,760 education and support um and wonderful programs I guess for families like mine who were quite 186 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,120 isolated at that time we in Broken Hill we didn't have any like we didn't even have a grief counsellor 187 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:15,640 so um I sort of took it upon myself to um get some help not just for me there are a lot of other 188 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:21,800 women in the community as well so um I reached out to Red Nose and was lucky enough to have an 189 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,920 educator come out to Broken Hill and spend time with families but also the health professionals 190 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:32,760 as well um just giving them education on how to better support um families who have gone through 191 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:40,280 the loss of a child so yeah as much as things were you know really hard at that time I feel like I 192 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:51,560 tried to I don't know make positive choices in that situation yeah um sort of helped me 193 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:57,320 get through that time yeah and to be able to gain that help for other people and 194 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:02,760 I guess there's always a sense of you know you don't you wouldn't wish this on anyone sort of 195 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,560 feeling so you know you're giving that that help to other people in your community as well 196 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:17,720 yeah absolutely but also um I guess you know we've come a long way I have in my family I guess I 197 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:23,640 was the third generation who had like lost a child so I had an auntie who'd lost a child and my 198 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:31,000 grandmother had lost children as well so just knowing their experience and how unfortunately 199 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:37,560 how it was dealt with you know back in those days to how far we've come right now um and the work 200 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,440 that I'm doing with SIDS and Kids is now about you know getting education out to remote communities 201 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,720 as well so particularly um you know our remote Aboriginal communities all over the country who 202 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:57,160 yeah just need a bit more support and um yeah it's it's a it's a tricky thing there's a lot 203 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:04,200 sort of culturally that's you know it's hard like language you know barriers and just just distance 204 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:09,080 I guess and access to services so uh that's something I'm very passionate about as well 205 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,880 hmm yeah good on you for doing that 206 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,240 when you had you when you first became a mum did you go through like a really big sort of shift in 207 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:51,640 your identity where you sort of went who am I now you know am I still Emma I'm someone's mom like 208 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:58,680 where do where do I sort of fit in to this yeah oh and I think we all do like it's just that's just 209 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:05,720 um goes hand in hand with when you become a parent I when I had Lockie um 210 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:13,400 um oh gosh I remember just being so full of anxiety you know am I doing this right what am 211 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:18,680 I doing oh he's crying all the time he won't settle for me you know just that total lack of 212 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:25,320 confidence um that you have when you're a new mum even though like I had an amazing group of 213 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:33,320 friends and my my mum was amazing like I had lots of support um but I found like the first probably 214 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:40,200 12 months sort of quite challenging um and then I don't know has as he got older and I felt like 215 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:47,000 things got easier and I sort of found my way um I just loved every minute like him and I had such a 216 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:54,200 close um relationship you know I stayed at home until he went to school um and then I sort of I 217 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:59,800 studied early childhood education as well um because I just thought well I don't have the tools 218 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,680 so if I go and do a bit of study that's only going to help my relationship you know with my kids so 219 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:11,800 and that's been that's been a huge part of my life and still is like that the education and 220 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:18,600 that sharing with children is just I don't know they're just amazing like they just have that 221 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:24,840 joy that we sort of lose as we get older um and working with them just keeps that sort of relevant 222 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:30,120 for me it's still it's always there that joy that they have that sense of wonder at the world and 223 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:35,160 yeah I love that totally relate to that I'm an early childhood educator I work in a kindy at the 224 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:41,000 moment and it's like they just keep you so like grounded on what's actually important in life and 225 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,280 what's happening right in front of you oh absolutely you know the worst thing might have happened this 226 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,280 morning like at home if you know not the worst thing but you know the boys might have given me 227 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,200 trouble getting them up they didn't want to get up or they can't find their shoes or whatever but 228 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:59,880 at work it's like someone finds a rock and that is like the center of attention like this rock 229 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,920 where did it come from what is it what does it do you know it just brings you back to this 230 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,120 basis that sense of curiosity and I think that's why I've just been really passionate about early 231 00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:15,720 childhood education for like the best part of 15 years it's played a huge role in my life 232 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:25,000 yeah and I'm really lucky now that I get to go and work in schools sort of with my arts practice and 233 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:34,040 sharing like my art techniques and just you know general art I guess techniques and different 234 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:42,120 mediums but coupling that with culture as well and just they're like little sponges you know like 235 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:47,240 they have just you share one thing with them and you know that that's the thing that they're going 236 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,200 to go home and talk to their parents about like it's yeah it's amazing it's so much fun it is 237 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,000 isn't it I just absolutely love it I only came to the industry probably 10 years ago and I just wish 238 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:03,720 I had a founder earlier because it's just the best it just keeps you just so I don't know on this other 239 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:10,680 level of looking at life I don't know oh and they definitely keep you grounded as well like you know 240 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,520 you can't like if you haven't been to the hairdresser for a little while and you've got some 241 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,080 sparkles on the side you know first thing they point out oh geez emma you're looking a bit 242 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:24,440 your hair's looking a bit strange today or you've got sparkles in your hair oh yeah I know 243 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:40,920 oh nothing gets past them does it they're just so honest so honest 244 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,360 do you like I know I think it's formally called like artist in residence like do you go into the 245 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:04,200 schools and like work in on that sort of capacity with the children yeah well essentially yeah I've 246 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:12,760 we I do still call it like an artist in residence so um I have been who in the last little while so 247 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:19,240 I went out to work in a bill um you know again that's that like just that when you live remotely 248 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,760 you don't have the same opportunities as what you do like when you're in a more regional area so 249 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,840 I'm passionate about you know going out and sharing that with with those kids and they're like 250 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:36,360 yeah they have a completely different perspective on everything as well um last week I was over in 251 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:47,720 Camperdown and helped um Camperdown college we had six students um in the junior school and then 12 252 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:54,360 in the senior school and we created two murals so um yeah it's just expanding I guess their knowledge 253 00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:03,320 about culture but also reminding them to like not lose their wonder about how amazing nature is um 254 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:09,080 yeah and it's interesting like I present a nature collage and just you know when they come up and 255 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:14,040 grab the different uh bits and pieces of nature that I've collected you know that just that 256 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,560 oh like remember when we went to the beach and you know I went to the beach with my family and I saw a 257 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:27,160 shell like this or um you know just different bird feathers you know they'll talk about like the one 258 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:34,200 time that they got swooped by a magpie and you know just the stories and then I guess that just 259 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:41,640 reminds them to be yeah more connected to what's actually around them you know we're such a tech 260 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:48,040 a tech heavy society these days so getting back to nature is beneficial like on so you know there's 261 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:54,520 there's a gazillion studies about it but just go for a walk and yeah pick up a leaf and have a look 262 00:29:54,520 --> 00:30:00,520 at it or just go to the beach and have a wander you never know what you're going to find so um 263 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:09,480 yeah just that just that gentle reminder to be aware and um be connected. Yeah and the noticing 264 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:15,480 of things like I've like we're doing this term we're doing a book called um garden stew so it's all 265 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:21,240 the ingredients are all things we find in nature and there's this lovely little quokka that's like 266 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,360 the star of the book who's gathering all these things together so I've been asking my children 267 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,080 about just things they notice not necessarily at kindy but when they're on their way to kindy or 268 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,720 at home and some of the things that they share it's like you plant that little seed and then they 269 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,800 just start that it's like the whole world's open and like oh I noticed this and I noticed that and 270 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,160 there's a tree in my backyard I never realized it has these different color leaves and it's just so 271 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,200 I just love that it's just like boom and it all comes and seeing things in a different way and 272 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:56,840 yeah yeah I love it that just that's I guess that's the stuff that fills my cup up um yeah 273 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:04,680 so yeah I've done I did camp it down last week I'm heading into work with um two Catholic schools 274 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:13,080 in Melbourne and then I come home Friday night and then I head off to Ararat for um a week to work 275 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:21,880 with students over there again um we're creating a mural and um I guess I just sort of see my role 276 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,600 as a facilitator the work the work is like their story and their voice I just sort of give them 277 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,520 literally the tools and a bit of guidance to help create their own story because I think um 278 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,880 um it's always really important to share your own story but to hear other people's as well 279 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:47,000 yeah that's it isn't there's no point going into to a particular area um and you know putting out 280 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:52,680 what you you think or what you feel or whatever it's yeah because we are so different and you 281 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,760 talked about you know these tiny towns like this Warwick and Beale and Camberdown like they're in 282 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:02,120 the middle of like literally nowhere you know it's very different to you know say Waterville so 283 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,760 everyone's got their their own particular stories that relevant to where they are and how they 284 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,440 experience life yeah absolutely and it's interesting I guess like just going to Warwick and Beale you 285 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:18,280 know the pride that these kids have that they're farm kids and you know they grow they grow the 286 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:25,480 stuff that helps the rest of us you know each like it yeah they're so proud of that um and even you 287 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,040 know in Camberdown you know they they all have farms like they're on dairy farms you know that 288 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:37,000 they have whole industries and they know so much about it that you know I was like oh well tell me 289 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,080 you know what what happens here and what happens there and how many times a year do you guys you 290 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,680 know harvest your crops and yeah and it was just amazing and these little kids at kinder you know 291 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,200 their parents were bringing in bags of grain and um chickpeas and stuff that they'd grown at their 292 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:58,840 house and I was it was fascinating like really fascinating like just to have that okay it goes 293 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:06,840 from like a dust bowl out here in Warwick and Beale on their farm to you know like in our food it's 294 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:14,600 but kids have made that connection and it's yeah it's amazing just the pride that they have knowing 295 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:21,240 that like their family's contributing that they're literally feeding the rest of Australia yeah it's 296 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,400 pretty massive thing isn't it I guess it's easy to kind of feel forgotten about when you're you know 297 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,800 you know um living a bit more remotely than other people but yeah that was and we we really 298 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,880 celebrated that like in my time there that that um you know they they are really contributing and 299 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:46,600 like I would love to go back out there and spend some more time um I guess from me personally just 300 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:53,800 learning from them I mean I've not grown up in that environment so yeah yeah that's good isn't 301 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,520 it and I do love that they're so proud and they should be it's it's wonderful and I think actually 302 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,560 a lot of city people could kind of learn a lot from them about you know your food doesn't just 303 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,760 appear in a box or in a packet it actually comes from somewhere and from people working hard and 304 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:16,120 you know like I said she actually brought me in you know um all the different things that they 305 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,360 grow on their farm and the kids were like can you take when you go into the city can you take this 306 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:25,960 you know to show the kids and I was like yeah absolutely love that yes yeah yeah because it 307 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,720 was something I can't even remember what it was now but something's in my mind about the number 308 00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:33,960 of kids that didn't really know where milk came from I don't know if that I'm thinking of an 309 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,520 American thing or not and it kind of I thought how could you not know where your milk came from 310 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:44,280 like to out to me it's just it's obvious but you know maybe it's not that obvious and then 311 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:51,080 someone's told you or you've seen it I don't know I don't know it's like you're right and then I 312 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:57,160 guess we talked a lot about um you know they're they're growing things they're living off the 313 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:03,880 land and I guess then we link that back to you know um like Aboriginal culture like bush tucker 314 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:10,360 that we've we've had these things available to us and if we look after country then you know country 315 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:16,680 looks after us so it was really nice to explore those two things sort of side by side as well and 316 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:25,720 them then sort of understanding that I mean I grew up sort of you know in a really sort of remote 317 00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:31,560 place and you'd go out like we were on a property at times and you'd go out there and you'd think 318 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,360 there's nothing out here like nothing grows and then you know you'd go for a little drive in the 319 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,080 car and there'd be like a few kwangdong trees you know and then like say like there's food there's 320 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,360 stuff out there if you know about it so yeah you know that's been interesting for me I guess on my 321 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,880 own personal journey just um like learning about all the different sort of bush tucker and and 322 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,640 things like that I've always had that interest anyway but um yeah like digging a bit deeper into 323 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:10,520 it so it's been great 324 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:44,520 so 325 00:36:44,520 --> 00:37:00,200 yeah and you mentioned before about um your watercolors that you're making your ochre 326 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:05,480 watercolors that would be fascinating too like finding out what color what things make what color 327 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:16,600 and that sort of thing yeah and just I guess um like the fascination in how it was made traditionally 328 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,320 so you know like I go to a school and I'll say to the kids you know what what can you tell me about 329 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,640 aboriginal art and they'll say you know oh they made paint from rocks and I'm like yeah yeah 330 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,960 that happened you know so do you know how that happened like oh you know yeah they ground it 331 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:35,880 up and they add a bit of water and the second that you tell them that like it needs a binding agent 332 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,280 you know like it needs to stick together and you and you tell them that you know like traditionally 333 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:46,520 we might have used um animal blood or tree sap you know the eyes got bigger sources and you know 334 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:54,040 oh how does that happen and you know so just even in exploring like the traditional processes in my 335 00:37:54,040 --> 00:38:01,320 learning I'm able to then share that with um the kids as well and I went to the Northern Territory 336 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:07,960 last year and just was completely fascinated by the rock art and just to know that like that's been 337 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:16,440 there for 600 years and that paint that ochre has lasted you know 600 years in a cave yeah and yet 338 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,360 you know we can go and paint a house and within five years it's faded so yeah it's pretty amazing 339 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:28,520 isn't it it's pretty amazing that those just those basic you know elements of nature and you're able 340 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:35,080 to create something that lasts you know well beyond our own years and then you've yeah it's amazing 341 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:40,280 and I think you know growing up being that collector I've always like yep oh there's a red 342 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:45,720 rock or there's a you know that one's white or you know I've always I actually have a collection 343 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:54,360 of rocks um probably a bit odd for a 44 I could relate to that too yeah and when you grow up in 344 00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:00,760 a mining town it's kind of you kind of just yeah it's another it's just a thing yeah it would just 345 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:06,360 be part of your of your daily life like just finding interesting rocks it would just you know 346 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:15,960 it'd be great yeah I know it's yeah it's weird I quite often laugh that I like just 347 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:23,080 innately am like a gatherer and a collector and I think about my ancestors and the women who went 348 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:31,320 before me and that was kind of their role as well and it's comforting I guess to know that 349 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,920 like I'm still doing that and that's going to be passed on in my family as well that yeah just that 350 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:43,720 value in nature. Absolutely I love that um I've got a thing like that like with your rocks mine's 351 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:50,200 feathers I'm obsessed with feathers and I just oh my oh I just I don't know what it is about and 352 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:56,920 whether it's I don't know I like I love birds I think birds are just the most amazing things and 353 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:02,040 I have my little favorites that come around to the house and whatever and have a chat with the mag 354 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,920 pots and things and so I just I don't know it's like you've got this there's this they're so 355 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,560 unattainable because they can just go you know then they can go wherever they like and they're 356 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:16,840 free and to just have a little piece of that is I don't know maybe that's why I like I can hold it 357 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,080 close to me I don't know it's a funny thing. I know it's a treasure it's a treasure because it's 358 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:27,160 a moment in time that's just just that moment I suppose. Yeah yeah and you can't replicate it 359 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:35,960 you know as much as I try. And it's interesting like why um you know different different mobs and 360 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:43,800 stuff have different um totems and mine is a Willy Wagtail. Ah that's so interesting because 361 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:49,640 I've had a Willy Wagtail never before in the last three or four days has been at my front door with 362 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,920 his beautiful little whistle and I'm like what are you here for like it's still very interesting. 363 00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:01,800 My family have explained to me that they're messenger birds um so like black and white I 364 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,080 guess you know good messages bad messages when you when you're a Willy Wagtail you don't have a choice 365 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:13,000 to have to share the message whether it's good or bad that's that's kind of your your burden or your 366 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:20,840 your role I guess so um yeah just fascinated I love birds as well just fascinated by I guess again 367 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:28,760 that's another just a deeper learning that that I've been lucky enough to um have had shared with 368 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:34,840 me and yeah. Yeah just on birds just slightly off topic though do you get um carawongs over where 369 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:43,720 you are? No we don't we have the most amazing um superb fairy wrens you know the little good ones. 370 00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:49,880 Yes yes they're divine but it sucks out only the boys get to be beautiful don't they and the little 371 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:55,000 girls. Oh I'm just saying with peacocks it's funny oh yes that's so true. I take peacock feathers um 372 00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,360 in my little nature collage kit and I always say to the kids you know so these beautiful ones are 373 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,640 they the boy ones or the girl ones and the boy and the boys like oh no yeah they're the boy ones 374 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:11,720 because they use them to attract the girl ones like yeah they do like you know they show off for 375 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:17,720 the ladies and they just get hilarious. Yeah I always find that interesting in nature that the 376 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:23,160 boys get to be so bright and exuberant and then the girls are brown it's like hang on a sec. 377 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:30,280 I know we're too busy right we're too busy oh I don't know what it is I have to show you 378 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:40,040 while we're chatting and you know yeah um my auntie sent me these um oh they're magnificent. 379 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:46,840 Yeah are they oh treasures like they are beautiful so yeah I'll share with the listeners 380 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:52,040 they're um they're well they're red black what are they called black red black oh you say it. 381 00:42:52,040 --> 00:43:03,160 Yeah the the cockatoos you know the red tail black cockatoos yes the black ones yes oh they 382 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:10,040 are the most amazing birds but they are divine so yeah I'm like oh my god they're a treasure but 383 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:15,160 like I want to use them but then like they're too precious you don't want to use them yeah I know 384 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,040 what you mean yeah I've got one like that but it's the yellow one um we get the yellow tail ones 385 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:25,560 they fly yes between because we've got a lot of pine you know pine plantations here and they fly 386 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,640 between the plantations and every afternoon they come right over the top of my house and there's 387 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:35,080 only about four sometimes five and they just call to each other as they're going I'm like oh there 388 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:42,280 they go again it's just so special. And every crazy bird people oh I'm sure there's someone 389 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:49,160 else listening that gets this isn't there there's got to be. Well I don't know I'll own it anyway 390 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:57,320 I have no shame. I don't apologize for it I love it and I tell the kids about it at work and last 391 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:03,480 year there was one little girl who just loved cockatoos and I told her that my mum has a pet 392 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:10,440 cocky and she ended up just becoming so attached to this bird like I'd bring in photos and videos 393 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:15,720 of this bird and I said to mum do you think we could bring her in for a visit and mum's like oh 394 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:21,480 I don't think so Alison because she can be quite moody you know she's got a bit of a bite on her 395 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:28,040 yes so we decided against that but even yeah this year even though that little girl's going to school 396 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:33,720 one of her little friends often asks me how's cocky going it's like it's just so lovely that 397 00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:38,440 they remember this and because she's got such a personality and in some of the videos she'd just 398 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:46,280 do the funniest things and so oh my gosh she's just a cracker she just loves life like that bit 399 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,520 yes that's what I was about to say I think that's why I like them so much because they 400 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,960 they do have distinct personalities and they're just they're they're just like people like 401 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,480 they know what they like and what they don't like and what people they like and what people they 402 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:08,760 don't like I love emus as well I think you know growing up I was always like oh they're so 403 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:15,880 beautiful and and then you go to tower hill here which is um just outside of warnable and you know 404 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,680 they're so used to people they sort of come right up to you and you think oh god they're gonna like 405 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,600 for that second that little bit of fear creeps in and you're like okay I'll just put my hand 406 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:33,240 out so that I'm taller than them and that'll scare them away and and then at the same time I'm like 407 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:39,720 following them hoping that they might like drop a feather or something I did that recently actually 408 00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:45,880 it's my son my eldest son Alex he loves emus he's just got this thing for emus wherever we go if he 409 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:50,920 sees one he'll just go over to it and just like like obviously this isn't in the wild because 410 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:57,400 they run away from us um but yeah like where were we we're on the gold coast recently at the uh 411 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:04,200 carowar no what was it called um carumbin burn sanctuary and there was this emu up there and I 412 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:09,560 was patting him and I was hoping that one of his beautiful feathers would just fall out conveniently 413 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,880 accidentally you know I kind of got a hold one I thought no Alison don't do it 414 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:20,760 it's like my son's up up at his face and like distracting or like trying to nick 415 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:25,640 feathers no that wouldn't have been very kind so no I didn't do that but I did cross my mind 416 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:33,640 oh my gosh I'm a forager I'd be too scared I don't take yeah I only take what's what's already 417 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:40,600 dropped on the grip yes yes yes no that that's very funny um yeah thanks for indulging my bird 418 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:46,840 talk there oh that's okay that's fine I've actually like I've been painting emu feathers like just 419 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:56,200 so inspired by them um just the little detail and how fine and soft they are and yeah they're pretty 420 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:01,960 amazing like I don't know if people might have to google them but they are incredibly small like 421 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,920 when like you see this bird but then the like when you take it like they're like ostrich feathers 422 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,160 kind of where they've got like all the strings but then on the strands they're just so minute 423 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,880 I know incredible aren't they yep they make them go blind painting them like 424 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:25,080 could have picked a simpler feather so and then you know they're okay emu feathers and then dragon 425 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:37,960 fly so yeah yeah yeah all those tiny little veins detail it's all about the detail oh goodness 426 00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:03,560 did you find that after you became a mum that your painting changed like whether the way you 427 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:12,440 had to do the work or what inspired you changed after you became a mum well that's a good question 428 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:22,840 um I think I don't know my poor kids whenever I do something they're just it's just around them 429 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:31,160 like they're just yeah so at the moment like we're in a small townhouse and I've literally got you 430 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:36,760 know seven or eight canvases on the go around me so yeah they've always been surrounded by whatever 431 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,760 um whatever I'm creating so you know whether it's sewing you know when they were 432 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:48,120 younger and I was screen printing you know we'd like we would have fun doing it together like 433 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:54,920 I feel like that they've always been um involved in some way like and I've 434 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:02,280 I've really tried to nurture that in them you know and I guess they're a bit older now and it's not 435 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,400 really their their thing but that was a really strong connection for us to have like when they 436 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:15,320 were younger that we did these things together and they were a part of yeah whatever whatever I was 437 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,920 doing and even now you know like I'm making the ochre and stuff and Fraser who's 12 you know he'll 438 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:28,280 come over and like so what what are you doing you know um yeah I think I just I don't know I think 439 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:34,680 again it's that I just have the I just want to share what I'm doing with them like and so then 440 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:42,760 yeah they they are a part of it as well um and it's hard when you work from home to separate 441 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:49,080 those two things as well um and I've been lucky that I have been able to spend a lot of time in 442 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:56,520 my arts practice working at home so yeah um yeah I don't know it's I think it's an inclusive 443 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:03,320 sort of style I guess that I've wanted to include them as much as I can in whatever I'm doing 444 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:10,760 yeah and teach them as well I mean you know they've they both can sew and they probably could 445 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:17,480 whip up a screen print if you reminded them how to do it but you know that's not cool now but you 446 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:24,440 know yeah I know what you mean so they'll be able to darn their socks get hold of them 447 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:30,680 when after a lot of maybe I don't know I don't know some things might have gone in one ear and 448 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:44,440 out the other but anyway skills for life right yeah that's it yeah 449 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:07,640 So within that it was there an element of also wanting them to see that their mum can also do 450 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:13,000 things that don't involve being their mum so you can do things just for yourself? 451 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:19,160 Oh I think we've I think my husband and I have raised our kids to 452 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,640 want to explore things like whatever it is you know whatever their passions are yep go and have 453 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:32,200 a crack you know like if you want to try karate go and go and try it like have your own identity as 454 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:38,680 well like you you know home and your family will always be your safe space but don't be scared to 455 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:45,000 go out and try other things and I and I think that probably sort of was amplified after Asher died 456 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:53,640 like Loki was three and a half when that happened you know so I guess for that that couple of years 457 00:51:53,640 --> 00:52:04,600 after that I guess like sewing became my grief work that was what I sort of used to help me through 458 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:14,760 that time and so it's always been my sort of safe place to come back to and I think my kids just see 459 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:21,080 that as my creativity is just part of my identity and you know they're kind of they're not really 460 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:30,040 separated yeah but I guess yeah it just comes back to like have a go at something if you want to 461 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,960 if you want to try it have a go like you don't have anything to lose 462 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,960 yeah it's great advice isn't it like you said life's short and you just if you want to do 463 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:46,840 something just make find a way to do it yeah I mean look I you know I probably in hindsight 464 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,960 there's probably a few things I maybe should have pondered a little bit more like um you know when 465 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,160 I had my shop in Broken Hill I started it with like 70 bucks and I was like oh yeah I'll just 466 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:03,640 have a shop and you know you know rounded up a few bits of furniture and had a friend make me a bench 467 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:09,720 and away we went we sort of you know just yeah you don't have to have the best of everything but you 468 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:16,520 you can still try things it's it's not necessarily about you know going out and buying all of the 469 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:22,600 stuff for whatever it is it's just having a little taste of everything and and sort of really finding 470 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:30,520 what makes you feel content yeah yeah and you can always build on things as you go you don't 471 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:36,680 always have to have it all ready to go right at the start yeah yeah and I think also as well just that 472 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:44,920 um that creativity is so good for like self-regulation not just for adults but 473 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:52,760 for kids as well and I think um you know maybe COVID highlighted that for all of us like we 474 00:53:52,760 --> 00:54:01,000 we did have that time to slow down and and stop and go slow and take things in um 475 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:08,040 yeah I don't know yeah just something I'm throwing out no but that's the thing isn't it when you've 476 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:13,240 got time you can actually think about what you enjoy doing and what sort of like you said fills 477 00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:19,400 you up and makes you feel good and yeah having I think in life we don't get those times unless we 478 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:25,480 truly seek them out yeah it's like life just goes and goes and goes and goes um yeah so I think 479 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:30,200 yeah it's so important to have something that's yours I really think especially as a mum and even 480 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:36,200 in a partnership you know having something that that you know you don't always have to do everything 481 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,960 with your partner you don't have to share every single interest you can have things that you want 482 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:47,640 to do that don't involve anyone else uh my husband's just um started a punk band that oh good for him 483 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:53,960 so like he's just you know that's his thing he goes off and does that um I think our kids 484 00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,640 I don't know they they always say to us you know how proud they are that you know like dad's 485 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,360 dad's got the guts to get up and sing in front of other people whereas I there's no way I 486 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:11,960 could do that um but you know being in situations I guess with my um arts practice and 487 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:18,120 you know like collabs and different things where it's been quite public my kids are really proud 488 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:24,840 of that that I've like put myself out there um and even you know when you do those things sometimes 489 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:31,400 like they can be quite challenging as well so I think modeling how you handle that's really 490 00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:38,680 important as well for your kids you know I think they're always like you know sunshine and lollipops 491 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:44,520 and you've got to learn to navigate the hard things as well yes that that's it isn't it if 492 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:49,160 they're not just seeing the outcome if it's all positive that's great but they're actually seeing 493 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:54,360 the process and you know working through things like you said if things aren't quite going how 494 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:59,080 you expect how you deal with that and that's that's so important because as we know kids 495 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:04,440 they learn from what they see you're not necessarily what you tell them so very true 496 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:27,400 a 497 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:37,480 One of the things I like to talk to all my guests about is this concept of mum guilt 498 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:42,680 and I put that in air quotes because it's such a contrived term, like it's a term that's 499 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:54,120 been made up, I think, by Western society. Do you have any thoughts on mum guilt? 500 00:56:54,120 --> 00:57:05,440 It's almost palpable at times for me, just that, I don't know, I guess in the last couple 501 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:11,760 of years I've really like travelled a lot for work and I've been away and last year 502 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,480 I was away a lot while Lockie was doing Year 12 and I sort of thought, oh I really need 503 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:24,320 to be at home more. But then I was really proud of him because he was able to achieve 504 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:29,800 great things even when I wasn't there, I mean, I wasn't physically here, I was obviously 505 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:36,240 like calling and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, I do find it really tricky to have that 506 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:44,400 balance where you're giving everyone enough of yourself and then still filling your own 507 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:51,840 cup up. So yeah, I do feel like I get pulled in a lot of different directions quite often 508 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:58,240 and I know my kids are proud of me for going out there and doing things but then I guess 509 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:03,440 it's something that I put on myself, that I have that, oh I should be at home. But then 510 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:10,320 I don't, I've never had that traditional sense that I need to be a homemaker either, that's 511 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:20,360 not part of my life that I've sort of, I don't know, wanted to explore. Like I love being 512 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:25,820 at home and I am a real homebody when I'm at home but I also love getting out and like 513 00:58:25,820 --> 00:58:32,320 experiencing new things. But even when I've been able to do that, I guess like last year 514 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,160 I said I went to the Northern Territory, I would have loved for my kids to have been 515 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:44,240 there and so yeah, I don't know, it's a tricky thing. I don't know if it's something that 516 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:50,680 I like let anyone else sort of put on me but I certainly feel a bit torn at times, you 517 00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:55,360 know, am I spending too much time away or am I home enough or yeah. 518 00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:00,920 Yeah, that is something that someone said the other day, those exact words, it's not 519 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:07,280 something anyone else is putting on me, that's me saying this stuff. And it's like then it 520 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,400 makes it tricky then because it's like it's up to you to try and not think that stuff, 521 00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,920 you know, it's challenging. 522 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:22,160 It really is but you know, we're lucky now in that you know, like our kids have phones, 523 00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:28,200 you know, you can always just give them a ring, your FaceTime or whatever and you know, 524 00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:35,160 you can maintain that connection I suppose that maybe you couldn't have a few years ago. 525 00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,680 Yeah, that's so true. 526 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:44,920 It's easier to stay in touch and I think I made a very conscious decision like this year 527 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,080 to wherever I can involve my family a bit more in, you know, if I'm travelling into 528 00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,200 Melbourne or whatever and if I'm in there for a couple of weeks like the boys come in 529 00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:59,600 and we go to the footy or something so you know, it's that balance of doing things together. 530 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:07,000 Yeah, that's it isn't it? Because it's like, I guess you probably, fair to say like it's 531 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:12,160 you couldn't give up that part of your life because then the rest of your life would suffer. 532 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,240 You know, you couldn't give up your artistic endeavours because then you wouldn't be the 533 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:17,240 person that you are. 534 01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:25,280 I'd be miserable. When we first moved here, you know, everything was in storage because 535 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:29,280 we were waiting like we had a little unit and then we were waiting to move into our 536 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:34,200 house and everything was in storage and I reckon it was about almost a year later and 537 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:40,960 I got my sewing machine out and I just had that huge like reminder of, oh, I have missed 538 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,200 this so much, you know? 539 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:51,600 And I felt like my old self again. Yeah, like, yeah, it's weird that just doing that thing 540 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:56,880 that's always been there and that creativity just made me feel like me again. I felt like 541 01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:57,880 I'd been missing. 542 01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:03,680 Yeah, yeah, absolutely can relate to that. Yeah. I think that's a pretty common thing 543 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:09,760 that people I chat to, it's like it's just an integral part of who they are. 544 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:14,200 Yeah, you can't separate. I don't think you can separate it when you're a creative. I 545 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,720 don't think there is that separation. 546 01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:22,840 Yeah, which makes mothering all the more difficult. You know, it's like you've got half your brains 547 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:27,560 in mum mode and half your brains in art mode and they cross over and then, you know, one 548 01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,560 takes over and the other one takes over. 549 01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,920 Yeah, and that takes over your whole house as well when you have no room and you're painting 550 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,400 on the kitchen floor and I can't remember the last time we actually sat around our kitchen 551 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:43,240 table. Yeah, we ate a meal together because like it's covered, like it's literally covered 552 01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:49,040 in paint brushes and paint and yeah, I've got canvases all over the place and, you know, 553 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:53,920 they just walk around stuff now. It's not even like, are you going to clean this stuff 554 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,800 up mum? It's just like, oh yeah, we'll just step over the canvas and moving right along. 555 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:00,800 Yeah, that's it. 556 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:06,200 But it's not like, you know, when Fraser gets home from school, I usually like stop 557 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:12,920 for an hour or so just to, you know, wind down with him and yeah, like Lachie's studying 558 01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:18,760 from home. So, you know, when he comes up and has lunch and stuff, you know, just yeah, 559 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:23,560 being at home and touching it, touching base and you know, checking in on how he's going 560 01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:29,800 and stuff. So yeah, it's, I'm very lucky to work from home. Yeah, I feel very lucky to 561 01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:30,800 have that experience. 562 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:36,040 Yeah, yeah. No, that is nice, isn't it? It does make it tricky that I've talked to people 563 01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:40,240 who work from home. It's like they're in the middle of painting and they might hear the 564 01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:44,680 dishwasher stop or the beef of the washing machine. They're like, oh, I better just do 565 01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:48,040 that. And then it turns into, oh, I better just do this and better just do this. And 566 01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:53,160 then it just rolls on me like, oh, that's right. I was meant to be doing my painting. 567 01:02:53,160 --> 01:03:00,320 What's the opposite in my house? I start painting, I become obsessed and then it's like, oh, 568 01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:04,960 we're out of clean undies guys. Hang on, I'll have to quickly do a couple of loads of washing 569 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:14,440 and you know, like, oh, just that tidying, you know, like I get so, I'm just so into 570 01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:18,920 like my artwork. What you're doing. Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm so lucky my husband 571 01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:23,840 does the cooking and so, you know, I don't, I kind of don't have to stop. So I guess the 572 01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:31,800 tricky thing in that really is that it's hard for me to know when to clock off and actually 573 01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:37,720 just tools down for the day and separate work from, you know, just chilling out at home. 574 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:42,320 Yeah. Just sitting here, it'll be like, oh, well, I'll just do another coat on that or, 575 01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:47,320 you know, add a little bit here and then, yeah. And it's, oh, it's time to go to bed. 576 01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:54,320 Oh, sorry. I haven't actually talked to my family tonight. Sorry guys. Oh dear. So is 577 01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:58,240 that pretty common that you'll have like so many different ones on the go at once? Is 578 01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:04,120 that sort of how you like to work? Yeah, I think that's just how my brain works. And 579 01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:14,080 also like there's so many layers to Aboriginal art. So, you know, I might have a base coat 580 01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:19,920 on this one happening and then be blocking in things on the next one. And, you know, 581 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:27,000 then you've got to wait for the things to dry in between. And like, I might have, you 582 01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:32,680 know, works happening for a show and then a commission piece as well. And then I'm like, 583 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:38,000 like I said, I'm trying out different ochre. So I'm like, I just, yeah. And then I'll have 584 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,760 a little play, like a little like reward, I suppose, you know, like I've worked really 585 01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:46,760 hard on this one and now I just want to have a play. And I think that's really important 586 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:53,760 to give myself that time to just like mess around and not, because when it's your full 587 01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:58,960 time job, I don't ever want it to feel like a job. And I'm lucky that it doesn't because 588 01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:05,360 I absolutely like, I'm just so lucky to be doing what I do every day. But then I, yeah, 589 01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:10,800 I don't want it to get stale. So yeah, yeah. It's important to have those times we almost 590 01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:15,240 like that curiosity of, well, what happens, what happens, you know, messing around, like 591 01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:20,760 you said, about all the different things you like to do. It's like, that keeps you fresh. 592 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:26,520 That keeps you going. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And just like talking to other, talking 593 01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:32,860 to people, you know, when I go and do a weaving workshop or something, like just that connection 594 01:05:32,860 --> 01:05:36,520 that you have with other people and hearing about their life experiences as well. I think 595 01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:44,160 that's like, that's amazing that I get to do that. And I, yeah, I just feel really grateful 596 01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:52,960 that people are willing to share their experiences as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's that, I guess that 597 01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:58,680 connection. Like I've grown up in a massive family and like my mum has six sisters and 598 01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:02,720 a brother, you know, so there was heaps of aunties and uncles, heaps of cousins, and 599 01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,600 you had to sort of be loud to be heard. So it's nice when you go and work in a small 600 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:12,720 group and everyone sort of, you know, gets their little moment to share and... Yeah. 601 01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:17,480 You're not competing with the airtime. I'm very, I can be very loud. I'm very aware 602 01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:22,320 that I can be very loud. So, all right. Just need to tone it down a little bit. Well, that's 603 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:52,240 funny. Yes. So you mentioned some things you're working on. Do you have anything 604 01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:57,840 specific coming up that you're working towards? Like anything you want to mention that's coming 605 01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:02,960 up in the near future? I have a few projects on the go, but I can't, I'm not allowed to 606 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:12,480 talk about them. Yeah. And they're like, they're amazing things, amazing opportunities. And 607 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:20,840 I just pinch myself, you know, I'm this chick from the bush, like just, it blows my mind 608 01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:30,080 often that I, I'm in the situation that I'm in. And so, you know, to be like working with 609 01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:36,280 companies like Maya, you know, like to have my work in their shops, like nationally, like 610 01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:45,240 that's just pinch me stuff. And like that just, yeah, it still just blows my mind. And 611 01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:51,280 working with, you know, like the South Side Flyers, the women's basketball team, you know, 612 01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:57,680 I was so grateful to go and spend a week with them in Tassie last year for the indigenous 613 01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:03,920 round, you know, design their Jersey and had such a strong connection with them. And just 614 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:11,040 spending that time, it's like, like, I never would have dreamed of this when I was a kid, 615 01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:23,240 but I could be, yeah, living this amazing life and meeting really interesting people. 616 01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:30,280 And I guess connecting with other women who are doing the same sort of thing, and then 617 01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:35,160 just the experience of the flyers, like these are young female professional athletes and 618 01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:42,400 learning that, you know, the disparity in their pay rate, what the men earn and, you 619 01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:48,680 know, I'm not a raving feminist, but, you know, just little things like that, I guess 620 01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:53,720 it's an eye opener and you don't pay much attention to it until you get to see it up 621 01:08:53,720 --> 01:09:00,520 close and personal, like how hard they work and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, I love, 622 01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:09,080 I love that there's an element of like, being able to support other women in what I do and 623 01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:17,000 being a role model for young girls as well to just to have a go at things and don't let 624 01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:25,460 your own self like hold you back because we do that all the time. And I think that's something 625 01:09:25,460 --> 01:09:32,520 that has frustrated me about myself for a lot of years, like my own insecurities, I 626 01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:38,720 don't think I can do that. So yeah, I think just, but you know, that comes with age, doesn't 627 01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:39,720 it? 628 01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,720 Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. 629 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,960 Eventually get to that stage where you're like, no, I'm just going to do what I want 630 01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:45,960 to do. 631 01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,920 Yeah, I feel like in your 40s, you literally don't give a toss. You're just going to do 632 01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,260 what you want. You don't care what people think anymore. You know, you've gone through 633 01:09:54,260 --> 01:10:00,240 those years of worrying what, what people's judgment is going to be like, nah, I'm just 634 01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:01,240 going to do stuff. 635 01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:08,600 Yeah, for sure. Yep, absolutely. That's yeah. I don't know. So I guess in terms of projects 636 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:16,320 coming up, yeah, I've got lots of schoolwork that I'm really excited about. I've got a 637 01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:24,440 trip to the Northern Territory for early childhood education, which like that's amazing just 638 01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:30,600 to connect with other educators and hear, hear about different things that they're doing. 639 01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:39,200 I've been quietly working away, I guess at some early childhood resources as well. Like 640 01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:44,800 your inner service, things that I would want to use. And I'm like, oh, they don't, it's 641 01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:50,160 not here. So, you know, how can I create something that will fill that space? 642 01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:51,160 That's exciting. 643 01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:55,360 Yeah. The other stuff I can't really talk about. 644 01:10:55,360 --> 01:11:01,280 That's all right. Damn it. We understand. You just have to keep an eye on your, on Instagram 645 01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:02,720 or Facebook. Where are you most active? 646 01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:06,560 Yeah, I'm on all of those things. On the socials. 647 01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:13,440 Yeah, beautiful. I'll put links in the show notes of your, all your socials and things 648 01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:15,120 so people can find you. 649 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:20,320 But I have got my work in some galleries around the place, which is like, I'm really lucky 650 01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:24,600 to have their support and their sort of promotion as well. And then yeah, I sort of have my 651 01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:29,000 print work and all that sort of stuff through my website. But I guess the big thing at the 652 01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:37,440 moment is yeah, launching my fabric. So I was, that's a childhood dream and that sort 653 01:11:37,440 --> 01:11:38,440 of happening and 654 01:11:38,440 --> 01:11:40,440 Yeah, that's fantastic. 655 01:11:40,440 --> 01:11:50,920 Wow, there's a lot to learn. And being, you know, very environmentally conscious and, 656 01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:54,920 you know, wanting to know the supply chain and all of that sort of stuff. So that's been 657 01:11:54,920 --> 01:12:03,080 a very steep learning curve. Just, yeah, huge loads of information that you have to try 658 01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:08,640 and absorb and then work out which direction you want to go in. But gee, it's like, it's 659 01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:13,480 a, it's a whole feeling when you wear something that you have designed yourself like that's 660 01:12:13,480 --> 01:12:14,480 just 661 01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:17,000 Yeah, that'd be, that'd just about top it off, wouldn't it? That'd just be the best. 662 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:21,680 And I think, you know, having that, like watching my nan sew with all those beautiful fabrics 663 01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:25,600 all those years ago is just kind of stuck with me that like that's something I always 664 01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:30,800 wanted to do. And now I've realised that it's like, wow, that's actually happening. 665 01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:36,560 Oh, congratulations. That is exciting. So that people can see that through your website 666 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:37,560 as well. That's all 667 01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:38,560 Yeah, yeah. 668 01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:43,360 And they're beautiful. That's awesome. No, thank you. It's been lovely to chat with you. 669 01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:44,360 Thanks for coming on. 670 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:50,400 Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love your work. 671 01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:55,480 Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving 672 01:12:55,480 --> 01:13:01,000 us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend 673 01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:07,120 you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, 674 01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:11,680 please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next 675 01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:40,240 week for another chat with an artistic mom. 676 01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:33,840 I don't know what's on the weekend, even though wanting a rebrand, kicking it up on the rampage. 677 01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:54,660 And the 678 01:14:54,660 --> 01:14:58,660 Collect all this gold energy 679 01:14:59,660 --> 01:15:05,660 Boil my energy, as I press the gold energy 680 01:15:05,660 --> 01:15:09,660 Collect all this gold energy 681 01:15:09,660 --> 01:15:13,660 Collect all this gold energy 682 01:15:13,660 --> 01:15:28,660 Collect all this gold energy 683 01:15:28,660 --> 01:15:43,660 Collect all this gold energy

Jillian Lauren US best selling author + journalist S2 Ep70 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am thrilled to welcome Jillian Lauren to the podcast this week, a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock + roll wife + mother of 2 based in Los Angeles, United States Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey and graduated from Newark Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University. Soon after, she started exotic dancing in New York at the Kit Kat Club + became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the Prince of Brunei for 18 months. When Jillian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with an Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career, with Jillian's work since appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles Magazine. Jillian is a New York Times Best Selling author of 2 memoirs Some Girls: My Life in a Harem , about her experience as The Harem Girl, and Everything You Ever Wanted about her journey of adopting her son Tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tariku came to the family as an 18 month old, and brought with him intense trauma responses and during the next few years Jillian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her instincts. Jillian and her husband Scott Shriner (bassist from Weezer) added to their family in 2015 when they adopted through the US foster system their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and has an autism diagnosis. She has also written a fiction novel entitled Pretty and has an upcoming novel based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel Little called Behold the Monster coming out in 2023 . Several of Jillian’s manuscripts are being developed into TV + Film projects the most recent being Confronting a Serial Killer released on STARZ. The five-episode series tells the story of the relationship between Jillian Lauren + the most prolific serial killer in American history Sam Little, and her work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered, before he passes away. **This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss + miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer and does contain a bit of swearing** Visit Jillian's website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age + ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Jillian Lauren. Julian is a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock and roll wife and mother of two based in Los Angeles in the United States. Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey, and graduated from New York Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University and soon after started exotic dancing at the KitKat club and became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the prince of Brunei, where she stayed for 18 months. When Julian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career with Julian's work now appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles magazine. Julian is a New York Times best selling author of two memoirs, some girls my life in a harem about her experience as the harem girl and everything you ever wanted about her journey of adopting her son tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tarik, who came to the family as an 18 month old and brought with him intense trauma responses, and during the next few years, Julian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her own instincts. Jillian and her husband, Scott Shriner, the bass player from Weezer, added to their family in 2015. When they adopted through the US foster system, their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and an autism diagnosis. She's also written a fictional novel entitled prissy, and has an upcoming novel. Based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel little called Behold The Monster coming out in 2023 Several of Julian's manuscripts are being developed into TV and film projects, the most recent being confronting a serial killer released on stars. The five episode series tells the story of the relationship between Julian and the most prolific serial killer in American history, Sam little and Julian's work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered before he passes away. This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss and miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer, and it does contain a bit of swearing. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient new age music trio, LM J, which is comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Julian. It's a real pleasure to meet you. It is so nice to be here. Yeah. And it's funny. I feel like I kind of know I don't know you but I know so much about you through the memoirs that you've written. How did you first sort of get into writing? Well, I have kept a journal since I was eight. So I always wrote always, like I had that, you know, muscle in place. But you know, I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be director I want to be anything but a writer and it really took you know, a journey through some unusual places until I landed where I belong, you know, until I I said to myself, like, what is it that has been consistent in my life for all these years? What do you think? What do you think you were sort of pushing back against the writing that you didn't sort of validate it really hard? Really hard. It's, it's, it's hard to finish. It's hard to start. It's just hard. Like, if you can possibly choose anything else choose anything else? Well, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And, and being a memoirist, it's, you're very, you're being very vulnerable, which I want to commend you for too, because the things that you're sharing, you know, people can relate to, and it opens these opportunities for conversations, which are really important. Did you find was that the first sort of style of writing that you went to? Like, I guess, because if you're journaling in your diary, no, because I couldn't sell my first novel. Yeah. That's the memoir. To tell you the truth. I wanted nothing more than to never write that memoir. Yeah. Why to never write some girls, because I knew I knew was sensational. Like that it would get bought, very likely, you know, because I'm not the only woman who was over there. But, you know, I'm also a real writer. Yes. There are so many book clubs I go to where they're like, do you write your own book? I'm like, I'm the writer. Yeah. I'm not like a celebrity with a ghostwriter. Um, yeah, that's it. But it was really scary. And I knew what I was doing. And I tried very hard to eat much more New York curry. And that's always you know, how I saw myself, you know, at the Algonquin club or something, and I'm like, okay, given the times. And, you know, and they were like, nah, nah. And I had just gotten out of graduate school, and I started librarian school, I started to get my master's in library science, because I was starting to think like, you know, I need a plan B. And my husband was like, you know, when I said, I would support you through graduate school. That wasn't like, forever of graduate school. So, like, can you tell me what the plan is here? And, and I was like, you know, what gave me three months. Give me just give me three months, I have this one card left to play. And I talked to my agent. And you know, she's like, I can't sell this. I'm sorry. I love it. I can't sell it. And I was like, Well, you know, I've been thinking writing a memoir, this really interesting thing happened to me, I was the Mistress of the principle and I when I was a teenager, and she was like, what? Job was on the table, you know, like, how have you not told me this before? And I was like, I didn't want to write about it. That's why and, you know, and she was like, Well, do you genuinely feel like you're ready to write about it now? Like, consider all the consequences? Consider, you know, what it means to become memoirist. Consider you're going to be the heroine girl for the rest of her life. When she did you get to a certain point where you're like, okay, not so bad. Not so bad harem girl but I that was actually a quote from one of the other women who was who was in printer, who I still keep in touch with and yeah, you know, she said, like, I mean, thank God, I just something crazy. That's something like that. Not many people could say that. They've had an exciting experience like that. And it's such an exciting life. There is definitely an element of, of edge pushing to my life. You know, I'm an adrenaline junkie. I'm super curious. I always want to see the things that people aren't looking at, you know, I want I want to see the man behind the curtain. Ilana, like, you know, just like I just have the urge to have that kind of bite out of life and it doesn't was winding up in the best places, you know. But it has given me some very interesting stories the next memoir that I've read that you wrote was everything you ever wanted. Can you share with the viewers the sorry, not the viewers, the listeners, what that books about? Everything You Ever Wanted is about the process of adopting my older son. He's 14 Now, his name is tariku. We call them T. And he was adopted from Ethiopia. And before that, we had an extensive history with infertility and that and miscarriages. A lot of miscarriages. We were just sort of reflecting on it the other day. Now that's so far in the past, and like, there was a minute, my period was late. And I was just like, oh, wow, like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, gosh, yeah, I do not have enough notice for this right now. And we were just laughing and you know, of course, you know, we would have just accepted it as a blessing it was but yeah, and you know, whether it was miscarriage, just like period or whatever, like it hadn't happened in years. So we were reflecting on how painful that journey was. And, you know, now we have teenage boys, and it's not painful to me anymore, but I can remember. Yeah, yeah, it felt like and also like, your concerns get so different. Yeah, yeah. You know, try like listening with a glass trying to figure out who's a girlfriend? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Any wants to go to Annapolis? He must be like a navy combat pilot. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, and like, he's a whole person. But, you know, I wrote this book every day, I sat down and people criticize, I'm sure as you know, you know, people, women who talk about parenting, right about parenting, or podcasts about parenting mate material about parenting, like, we're exploiting our children. And I'm like, you know, parenting is as valid and experience you know, motherhood is as valid and experience as climbing Mount Everest, or anything else, or bagging groceries, or, you know, might be kowski worked at the post office. So what I was going through was early motherhood. And, you know, and adoption, which was, you know, really exciting, an interesting process, and I was dying to write about that. And, and our beautiful like, we consider our family that we met during that trip who really changed our life. We were there were nine families all together. And we really went through something together and not to like give any spoilers but for instance, they did our paperwork wrong. So we went through the whole week there and Addis transitioning him out of the orphanage you know how painful and difficult that was and of course I have 1000 funny stories about like, you know, like he's not pooping die people other people in the house that were already parents so they were Yeah, lets us but um you know, I mean, we all still keep in touch. Yeah, that's from and when our they had written your, we were like, supposed to adopt a child up to four years old. Like that. You You know, except they wrote four months old. Yeah. This the paperwork. So we're standing there like at the embassy, I am like, I have like the baby, and ergo, we're like ready to get on a plane the next day. There's nowhere to sit. It's just like, there's nowhere to go. Everyone else got their stuff. And they just kind of like walked away from us. And we were like I mean, I was running around, like, it was, you know, like, like, there was like, an alarm that nuclear missiles were coming. Like, I was like, shaking people. They're like, where did that man go? That man who was right there? Where did that man go? Anyway, so the whole group had a chance to go home, you know, we would have had just stayed there. And they come back for us, obviously, we're going to stay there for a long time. And they all stayed with us. Yeah, could pay for. I mean, it was like, it was most unlikely group of friends. And we all still, you know, love each other kids still know each other's incredible process. So, you know, I wanted to write about that those friendships. And then, you know, realizing that T was, you know, had special needs. And there's been diagnosed and re diagnosed column what? calm a lot of things. You know, diagnoses aren't magic. They can just maybe help you communicate with people. Right? About what might help. You know, I mean, basically, everything. We're like, Alright, so for $5,000, you just told us exactly what we already know. Thank you so much. I'm just, you know, the screening, screening and just learning for me to settle into this, you know, acceptance, which we all do as mothers, but I'm like it, I am a very imaginative and a kind way to myself, but, you know, also sort of a controlling person, I would like to, I would like to, like, set the diorama stage and, you know, bring my baby home and have I done all the reading all the, you know, I had to like mill to do the organic baby food and shit. I was canning, I don't know what happened. I really doubt. But, you know, what, he didn't give a shit about organically milled anything. And anything, or, you know, and I was like, we're gonna make homemade bread. Um, and, you know, that wasn't what you wanted or needed. It was, you know, that was my idea. Yeah. Do you want a given what her need? Do you think that some of that is sort of brought on by what, like society expects us mothers to be and the standard that they expect us to hold ourselves to? Yeah, I mean, really, I mean, not all of it, because I'm a little hyperactive myself. So, you know, it's like, you know, Scott will say, like, you know, I'll, I'm writing an article about Tango. So I, all of a sudden, like, all do is Tango for two solid months, like, I'm out every night till two in the morning, smelling like Argentine gangsters when I come home, you know? And, and then article came out and like, I haven't dance. And so, you know, it's like, I picked up on every, every parenting trend, every one of them, you know. And in Los Angeles, it's like, I mean, I imagine like in most major cities, you find you're sort of, you know, you have to find your sort of niche. If you want community to support us. So, you know, we had friends that were into Waldorf, we had friends that were into something called dry. I don't know if you know what that is. It's basically like, put your babies in an octagon and just like, let them work it out. Let the curiosity out. Okay. It's a new one for me. I went to this Oh, I mean, and the baby yoga and ever, and all these kids are like, you now and my kid just gets in there and just wants that toy. And Bob said, Can the head and takes it. And you're supposed to sit there and watch, right? That's like the whole idea of a thing. Like you don't interfere with their their growth or their interaction during the group. And at some point, I was just looking at, I was like, Do you guys want me to get my kid because he's gonna hurt your kids. Like, this is not a principle that works for everyone. You know, but everyone thinks the thing that not everyone, there plenty of people have had multiple experiences, you know, the thing that they find that whatever methodology of parenting or schooling, works for them is the only way and it's hard for me to explain to them, like, my kid would have been kicked out of a Waldorf school and a week, you know, and, like, the French school. Like, wouldn't just already knew that we're going to kick them out. But we are going to kick them out. Yeah, you know. So it was about that journey for me. And, you know, as all my books are, and people find it hard to be written about not t he loves that book. Yeah. But he, you know, he knows, he knows what happened, you know, and he knows sort of my version of it. And he has his version of it. And he's really proud of the book. And so my No, and that was my goal. When I wrote it. I was like, This is a gift to my son. Yeah, you know, I'm talking about all this stuff, warts and all. But this is a gift to my son, ultimately, that, you know, the first, like, almost three years of his life are really pretty. You know, like, the major points are pretty well documented in that book. And I would hope that you know, that that that'll be special to him someday. Jovi's book coming, I'm like, No, I'm so done. Do you might get an essay, like second child syndrome Yeah. You just mentioned JB, how old? Is he idea? Yeah. So he, he came to you in a slightly different way was through. Right. So we adopted tea from Ethiopia when he was 11 months old. We thought, you know, Ethiopia would be a great choice again, because there's so much you know, it's a rich culturally, and he's really into it. And, you know, there were no more adoptions happening in Ethiopia at the time. I was just going over there and doing kind of grassroots work in communities and, and, and orphanages and stuff. So, I mean, that was best I could do like to be close to his culture, but we'd have to Jovie out of the foster care system here. DCFS. And we had really, we knew that the likelihood of black boys being adopted after the age of two, I mean, the likelihood of Blackboard is being adopted at all. But after the age of two, like it's almost nothing. Percentages are so low. And we had been through so much with T. And he was really kind of out the other side of it by then. I mean, he's still like struggling attention and stuff. But you know, he wasn't. I mean, now, like I said, you you would never guess. Yeah, yep. No, it was just like, I'm like, here's the perfect. Here's the perfect example. She the minute I open Christmas ornaments for the first time. And he looked at them, he just picked one. Just a ball looks like a ball rather than the wall. Oh, yeah. goes in like tiny shards, a really thin glass all over the living room. Yeah. Joe V, we adopted to DCFS because, like, we felt really moved by that. And also, we thought like, if not us, then who? I mean, really, we've been through so much. We have these resources. You know, like, we have resources for another child. And we have resources for, you know, therapy with like, no, the best therapists we have done all this training. And, um, and it was still so scary. Yeah. You really, really scary, like Skarner those, you know, we both have, we're both prayerful people. We don't often pray together. There have been only like a handful of times in our life. And we come from different traditions. So like, pray differently. But like after the first time, we met Jovi, and we realized he couldn't really talk. You know, like, half his mouth was all rotted out. I changed his diaper stone diapers. I mean, he was wearing a size two, us three and a half. Like, there was no hand soap in the house. He was getting the shit beat out of him by older kids. And it was really scary. You know, and we pulled the car over and just like, held hands and just prayed for guidance and and, you know, and sad sat there for a minute together. And he turned and looked to me and he said, you know, someone's gotta believe in someone's on time. Live Let's believe in this kid. It's making that's yeah. Oh, yeah. Such an asshole. Sometimes she really nails it like the times that he nails it, he nails it. One of them someone's gonna believe in someone sometime. And you know, and the first months with Jovi for us were like, we would just hold him while he screamed and scream and like, sweat was covering his body. Like he was so slick. Like, we were like, human hold on to him. And you know, who's screaming cry, he would lie under the bed. Like, I would just go and kind of lie next to the bed. Like, I'm just here. You know, we're gonna talk. Like you didn't even have any words. You didn't know a cow said Moo. Yeah, and 123 or ABC, you know? So not only is he in this totally unfamiliar environment doesn't understand why. Um, he only now barely understands why. Yeah, wrap his head around what happened? You know, the events life that led us here. And he's only just starting to ask. But yeah, it was like, I mean, he was always so funny. Yeah. So funny. And so adorable. I mean, all these are survival skills, you know, the same way like a big shining bright star. Um, and you know, in, in traumatic situations for children, they'll often get really big and now there'll be the one that gets the attention. Or the one that gets more food maybe or the one that you know. Yeah, yeah, so Jovi. I'm thinking it really started to turn around for us. Like three years ago, you know, we took him to, he got an autism diagnosis, we took him to a really specialized preschool that was almost like one on one. Yeah. And there were like, only five kids in the class. And you know, it was specifically for kids with autism. For the most part, you know, or symptoms presenting that way. And we had to attend with him for like, the first six months. I know. I know. Like, you are fucking with me right now. Like, I can't even drop this kid off at autism preschool. Like, what do you do here? Please, God, someone helped me. But it was amazing. It totally changed things. He did, you know, he matriculated in kinder, and we had a really supportive school, really supportive Public Charter School, who love the kids and aren't scared. They, they're not scared of a diagnosis. They're, they do IEPs, which are individualized education programs, if your kid needs, you know, because every kid is supposed to get the education they need. And so they do their own IPs. They have great people who work with Jovi and he plays a violin and he dances and he knows how to take breaks. And I mean, he is he's brilliant. He's working at and above grade level. Yeah, like you told me the other day like I don't want to be in this baby math class anymore. failing math class. School is not necessarily separated by grade all the time. Like they'll have like a b and c mat and and like they might have kids from different grades in like who are just at that level of math right. So I you know, I called the school I was like me, can we have a meeting because Joby feels like he's in the baby math class? And they're like, Joby, you are the youngest person in your class. You're not in the baby math class, and you're not ready for the next one. But what a what a miracle. Oh, yeah. It's, it's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah, I love soccer. He loves our animals. Yeah. And the trauma stuff, it's all there. No, and for both of them, it comes out. At different times, there are different triggers, like the job aids, a lot of medical stuff, hospitals, things like that. Like we had to take them to the hospital, he had a really high fever and hell get bronchial stuff. It changed the hospital recently, and that check blood and he for two days was like, a one year old. You know, if you progress you know, and so different things would trigger it. And it'll come popping up but I mean, I don't think about it every minute of every day anymore. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. So it's I mean, you you've been through so much. And you know, I think it's like it's a credit to yourself and to Scott that, you know, you've got so much love to give your children and you know, like you said you've done certain training like you've learned how to assist them when they need it and it's just it's a joy like you're experiencing now. You know, the other side of it. It's wonderful Jovi when his soccer game, even though I had to pay I have six. You know, I'm just like, you're supposed to like it just being an all star team is just parent torture. Like I made all stars. Yay. Yeah, we have to do I have to like drive an hour 630 On a Sunday. But um, how old are your kids? So Alex, he's 14 and Digby seven. So if we ever get, but I can relate to the likes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, degrees just started playing tennis and it's the first time we've had any either child play a Saturday morning sport. So we're like, geez, we did want to get out of it for this. Now. Now I do. Yeah. Got like, I pulled the curtains at six this morning. You know what Soccer League? is what I think about you cycling Yeah. Nik, I know you've you said before we started recording, you've been talking a lot about your serial killers and things. But I sort of without talking specifically too much about that. But I want to talk about how it's affected you as a mother. It's pretty full on. It has been, it has been really hard. And I can't say I feel like I have an answer for you. That worked. Yeah, no, I was totally successful. Because everyone in my family was affected by me working on that story. You know, and it happened like that, like at the very end of it. When everyone was like, like, this is like enough of this poison in our lives, even though the work I was doing was so amazing and wonderful and gratifying in terms of the victims. Like, I was talking on speakerphone to a serial killer every single day. And then COVID hit, and everyone's in the house all the time. Yeah. And so like, it's not that big of a house. I can know and it echoes and stuff and like, and they know who they know what I do. And they know who I'm talking to it. Like, I mean team more than Jovi, you know, but T asks and I answer and I say you know, this is like, disturbing. disturbs me. And I love that you're curious because like Alaska, how they solve the case or something. Like I love that you're curious. I love talking about this stuff. But like also do you want to talk about how it makes you feel? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mama dog bite out makes me feel that, you know, he's like, he's like junior detective. So like, he'll get into the, you know, is a really good linear critical thinker. So like, he'll get into the, like, the stories leads and stuff with me, but I'm really, you know, it, it affected the most, because I wasn't around the piece that involves a lot of traveling. And it was just also present involved like me working 12 to 14 hours a day. So I wasn't around. And I was like an on hyper vigilance. Getting these calls from a serial killer every day. Yeah. Um, and you know, which was both for audio content for the documentary and stuff, but it was mostly, you know, to have a record of the kind of details I was getting from him to give to law enforcement. Because like I work very closely with law enforcement during the scene. Um, little case, because like I had his year, you know? Or he had my year end in a case. Yeah. Um, so I wasn't around a lot. I was when I look back, I can see it more than I saw then that like, my anger was coming out. Yeah. You know, because it's like they can deal with sadness. And just like if if you're crying, they don't mommy cries like that. It's like a joke. Mommy cries, right. Like, like, if there's ever a scene in a movie that's sad. Like, like, I mean, don't even talk to me about Mallanna. Okay. Ana has like four huge crime moments like to and you get over him fast, but Mallanna. So they'll be like, are you crying and crying? But I think I was. I was angry. No. And that was coming out in a way that I am from New York, I'm sarcastic. i If you have dinner with my family, you are going to have to, like raise your decibel level to get heard. Um, you know, and like, we razz each other all the time. And it just, it's an East Coast thing. It's just it's just how my family is. Oh, do I know my biggest parenting tip? Yeah. You want to know how to get your kids to not swear? Swear all the time? Really? I mean it. Yeah. And brown who's also whose parenting counselor says the same thing. She has a really filthy mouth. You know, like, Fuck was every other word. My house. So you know, I'm like, sorry, Mommy's not gonna go changing and this is parents don't talk like that do they don't? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Yeah, that's the thing is that like you? You talked about that anger. And I guess that's thing you're processing all your emotions that you're going through, and you're speaking to this man and finding out all these things and, and dealing with the families of, of people that he's harmed. And then you're trying to process that volume of it. Overwhelming. I mean, there were 93 confessions. Like it's hard enough to deal with one. That's just you can't fathom, like sort through this. I mean, I had 40 notebooks, it was glitzy making. And I think that, you know, what I didn't have was that tiny bit of extra space. Like, that was there for a really long time. That could always like make a beautiful dinner, you know, and just like reconnect, or sit and watch movie with Jovi or play cards or something. And like, you know, I wound up just like, shoveling soup into my mouth in front of the computer for you know, I mean, years. So we're just sort of trying to get a routine back here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I do want to sort of shine a light on the work that you've done. It didn't commend you for that. And thank you for that. Because it's such important work and obviously the families of the women would be incredibly grateful for the work that you've done. I mean, I I know that you know, I know them I mean, not, you know, there were a few victims into which I did a really deep dive, and then a few victims that I helped solve the cases. And when I saw it from top to bottom, I figured out it was in a different jurisdiction. Yeah. And, and with that, I was able to find some articles that look like they matched, and that I went to the place. And it was exactly what Sam described. And you know, and I was, and that was Alice. And I'm really close with Alice's family. They came to town, her sister came to town with her two nieces. You know, they, they took me out to lunch. And, you know, like, they said that until they realized, like, until I called them and told them, you know, and I do it very, very slowly, like, the Navier sisters come up in some of my research. You know, and would you like to know anything about it? And then I'll, you know, I'll give him a chance to say no, I don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's not like you just bled all. Even with Debbie with Alice's sister. You know, she asked for a couple of days. And, and as a journalist, you're like, you know, you want to like you just have this instinct and this training to like, never walk away you walk away and give someone a couple days, then they're gonna decide not to talk to you. Yeah, that's right. Then if you let anyone think about it, they're gonna do it. She actually called me back and was like, okay, like I'm ready to talk about this I talked about with my kids talked about it with my husband. Like I'd like to hear everything you have I'm a member of the military and I'm have a very strong backbone and you know Tamera thing and and she's just remarkable and then Denise brothers, I went to Odessa, Texas just like drove there on my own and you know, and her family like welcomed me into their kitchen and showed me their pictures and love letters and you know Audrey Nelson's daughter and I do think that my kids understand that I mean, regardless of you know Sam little not being the last project of my life you know, we're gonna move on I will stay in this field continuing to find missing persons and you know just get it out there as much as I can and restore names to women who have been lost Yeah, good on you system etc. Yeah, I'm with you know, they're gonna they're gonna have to get behind. On that is it do you find that it's important that your children see you as more than a library air quotes is just mom because we're never just mom but that you're also contributing so much with your work that you're doing and your writing and your investigation. I imagine that their feelings about it are going to change over time. You know, Jovi will say things like you're always working mad like made me feel horrible. I don't know what they'll think and I don't think It's I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me. I was never gonna give up my career. You know? And, like, T asked me a few days ago, because I was like, Oh, over there baby pictures. I don't know why there was some out. Yeah. And there's, but we're both the cutest thing in the world. And, and, you know, of course, like all kids always want to hear about how cute they were when they're babies. And when the funny things they said, and they love their own mythologies. And he said, Well, you know, did you like it better? Or we got a new puppy. And he said, did you like better? Having a baby or having a teenager? And I said, How many teenager? Yeah, you know, and he was like, what? Like, how would you say like, I guess I was supposed to say, you know, I love him all like all those years. But I didn't. Like, I liked them. I mean, it's not like I liked them more. Now. I just liked my life more now. If they consider a restaurant, or I like our life as a family more now we went to a friend of mines been named spa the other day, and they were able to sit through the whole ceremony and I almost you could have knocked me over with a feather. Yeah. And and they're both like, into their things. And they're super interesting. And like, I don't have to, you know, be the party clown all day. My mother never understood, like, this parenting generation at all. She was like, What are you doing? What are you talking about? Because I was like, No, I gotta go this group and that group in this group in that group. She's like, can you just give them a choo choo? And like, put them in a play pen? What? Go home at Virginia slam and have a bottle of red wine which is just like your own nuts. You don't? Then but then again, you know, I did go and walk the route that I used to walk to school. Last time I was home and I was like, trying to get me killed. Seriously, that is a lonely path through a dark wood. Oh, no joke. It's got to be something in between, you know, but yeah, that battle, you know, now now that they're into their own things. I mean, of course, you know, I love babies and love baby smell. I love other people's babies. I love my grandbabies. Hopefully one day. But that's nice. I tell them the truth. And it was like, Oh, you're so horrible. I could do say that. Like, personnel and I really like you. Yeah. And see, that's the thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest with your children. Like, you know, we don't have to sugarcoat everything and make, you know, pleat. People please another night just can be honest with them and life's great now, you know, like, you'd be happy about that. I think that, you know, at the same time, I like to try and be conscious of, you know, I mean, maybe like the totally honest me is, is not to me, my kids need Yeah, like Vanita mitigated me, like so does everybody know I'm on to me, like full force. But, you know, they definitely bring like a consciousness to how I talk, you know, and, like, I know, I know that when I do it right. And don't like, you know, shames Graeme, all that stuff. When I do it right, and like, you know, have a conversation. I mean, there have been times like it actually worked recently. Yeah. Like, you're gonna have to learn to put your clothes away. Like, I'm not like I will, they will sit here in a pile until you do like you want to go to the Navy. By the way, get up and do some push up. Yeah. Oh, close away. So yeah, that sounds very similar to my son, he's wants to be in the army but never makes his bed fixed. Like, hang on a sec, that's not gonna cut it. You know, I, I think that he's been starting to be able to hear it. Like thinking about his future a little bit. That's been the biggest difference this year. He's 14, you know? And I've been like, Listen, I need you to hear me because you're like college, this in college, that when I'm in college, and I was like, colleges doesn't happen magically. Um, and we can't pay for a private college for two children for four years. Like, who can't who can't write. So I was like, we're gonna have to think creatively. You know, I don't want you in debt for the rest of your life, either. You know, so let's start to really think about this, you know, what scores do you need to get into what schools and and then you know, and all he wants airplanes, airplanes, air. And just like one day, I was like, What about the Air Force Academy? And he was just like, Huh. Like I was doing for ROTC program, which is like, where they start doing, like some military training when they're still in high school. Like, Yeah, boy scouts, but soldiers. Yeah, right. Yeah. And he was like, Huh. So then he got on to that. And then, you know, I started finding out about the Navy pilots, Annapolis, and then, you know, we worked up going to and we called my friend who was a pilot. And, and he said, you know, is there such a thing? Is there really such a thing as Top Gun? And my friend was like, There absolutely is. It's not called that. It's called, like, the flight defense superveloce Law, some stupid thing, like somebody in Hollywood camp, a Top Gun. But it isn't an absolutely real thing. And he said, but you're not going to get into it. It's like, the top 1% of fliers in the country. And, you know, it's like getting into Harvard, or like, you know, becoming president or something. Like, it's not quite that hard, but, you know, is, but it's like getting into Harvard. It's like, yeah, and, you know, the, the likelihood is, you won't get it. And you said, okay, you know, and they talked more and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, we were just talking I was like, so how does that make you feel? You know, when he says it's impossible? And he was like, um, I don't know. I was like, because when someone tells me something's impossible, it kind of makes me feel like proving them wrong. And I just watched his eyes light up. And oh, no, this one my friends. It's like pitching for the Dodgers. Right? Or like joining the NBA. Ya know, and I was like, you know, what, you you're 14. We know you're not pitching for the Dodgers. Sorry. You're not You're very good pitcher. But you're not pitching for the Dodgers. You know, and you're not in MBA either. That's not going to happen. I was like, but we don't know. What if you're, if you are going to be in the NBA of fliers. Pilots like you very well could be like the the amount of time he puts in on the flight simulator. And I was like, so. I mean, we could have a lot of different plans. But if that's what you want to do, let's go for it. You know, Oh yeah, that's awesome. It's so fun, you know, and then to have them be like, Yeah, I'm gonna be the Dodger pitchers of combat pilot. Good on him. So, it's really thrilling. It's really fun. I try not to get like, too excited though or like, show it about anything they're into. You know, because moms are not cool by their nature. Don't embarrass them. You tell me what you think, like this generation of kids are really different from me, like when my parents were 35 they were old people. Like they were total grownups. You know, who like stockbroker housewife, dinner parties, grownups and kids were like, you know, listen through from the upstairs. Um, and, like, and, and there was this combativeness between, you know, like, you make yourself like Adley and punk rock clothes are listening to punk rock music, or my parents really a hidden problem with that, like, why? Yeah, it seems like such such a tiny thing to sacrifice a relationship with your child for, um, but they were just raised by different people. But like, our friends, our group of friends and our kids, like, all hang out together. Yeah, it's definitely different. Like, I remember the same thing like Mum and Dad would have, they had, we had a passage door that sort of divided the living area and the bedrooms. And that whenever we went to bed that would always be shut, and we'd hear the, they'd be out there with their friends. And we could We'd sneak to the door and listen, you know, it's just, I feel like, like, us, our, our parenting styles have changed so much that we include our children in so much more now. And I think that also allows us to, I don't know, I don't wanna say not grow up, because we, you know, we physically grow up, but we were still ourselves. We don't have to take on this role of the big serious parents that you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, and that's also not me. You know, like, I mean, you know, entail I was doing some really serious journalism and traveling, like, the Deep South and stuff, and I took my hair back now, I had blue hair till just a few years ago. And man T would like be on the road and get our hair done together and matching blue hair. And it was just like, you know, how fun and also like, we don't listen to all that much different music than they do. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we're into superhero movies. I love Star Wars. So was his number one. Yeah. And that's driven by me. We are Marvel Universe here. Yeah. Yeah. All about Marvel. Yeah. We are like we already have tickets for Black Panther opening. Yeah, it's like, we're not that. I mean, now you know, T likes to just talk to his friends on the phone. Actually, one of his friends is going to show up any minute. But um, nice talk to his friends, you know, and just on his iPads I mean, he could do it all day long. So it's not like he wants to hang around us all the time. But like, we had a couple of nerf wars lately. Yeah. And you're my husband is veteran and a lot of our friends are also veterans. So they are extraordinarily serious about like, organizing the teams and you had to like each have a little, you know, space and you gotta go get the flag and get back and if you get hit twice, whatever. Yeah, um, you know, but like, they wanted the parents to play. Yeah. Last the last birthday party. We went to parents played kids in kickball. Yep. And great. Yeah. It's like, you know, like, parents versus kids. Like, I don't think. I mean, when I was 14, are you kidding? Like, yeah, it'd be just no way. Hey, we hated them. And we they wouldn't play kickball. Are you kidding? We're like busy smoking at the mall. Yeah, it's good. It's great. I'm so pleased. Like, I feel like I've got a really good relationship with my 14 year old like he, you know, we're very close. And it's really good. And I hope it stays that way. As he gets out of me, it goes up and down. You know, my 14 year old and I've always, we're both stubborn. And we've come to blows for sure. I'm not actual blows. But yeah. You know, we like to say lock horns. Yeah. And so, you know, it's been kind of up and down. But right now, I'm just enjoying them a lot. Yeah. So it's kind of them and they're trying, you know, we've been just sort of talking about how, you know, we all need help. And they're old enough now. To like, participate, you know, their babies, like, they don't need to be taken care of every single second of every day. And, you know, and that we're all participating in this house in this life. And we have to, like, act politely toward each other. And you know, not have to be asked seven times to put on your shoes or to go to bed or to like, it's just it's time for that all to stop now. Yeah. I can relate to that so much. Yeah. And put in the laundry away. And, you know, it's just yeah. And like we took Jovi to soccer game this morning and left to home alone. Yep. And I was just like, one. And Scott was like, He's 14. He's fine. He'll wake up, make his breakfast. He knows where we're going. You know, back in two hours. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, I guess I was babysitting when I was 12. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, so I think they're like, the kids are kind of younger now too. Yeah. I mean, little group and this little school. Very thankful for. Yeah. I told you that I I left home and went to college when I was 16. I did. And, and he's like, that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh, man, I was like, You know what, you are exactly correct. That was not a very good. I know, he said, Where was it? And I was like, it's it was in New York. It was in in Greenwich Village in New York. And he was like, you were living in New York when you were 16 That doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh. And I was like, Yeah, you know why? Because then I told him I sneak out of the house and take the bus into New York. I was like, you don't have to do that you like you're like I'm gonna go to a concert dad gets on the phone with his manager. You know, obviously if you guys have a box you know, I You really don't have any reason to get out of the house. Yeah. on that, but I can't let you go without mentioning. You've mentioned Scott a few times and his connection to music, that he's the bass player for Weezer, and full disclosure, I'm a massive what he's a fan. I've got my little ways of paying for the fair club. And I've seen him sing them twice. They've come to Australia a couple of times, but my, I've got to share with you my funniest Weezer story was when they first came out, I think it was 96 or 97. And I just started going out with, like, my husband, obviously, we weren't married then. And we were playing in Adelaide, which is five hours drive from here. And I said to him, I really want to go see this band. And my favorite band, like this sweater song was out. It was blue Album Era. And he said, Ah, you know, if they're big band, they'll they'll come back again soon, you know, we'll go next time, you know. Anyway, 14 years later, I waited 14 years to see them play in Melbourne, and I'm lying. Now I just got to the same thing that they hadn't been to us ever wanted to go so badly. And it was actually, like, one of the times that he was like, you know, I'd like to stay here a little longer. Like, there's some beach. That's supposed to be like, really cool. Is this Sydney? Or like Bondi Beach in Sydney? Maybe? Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. And he's like, I just want to go like, stay there for apps like do, please. You know, but it was like, too long of a flight for tea at that time. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. So I was gonna say I saw on your socials that he went on the last tour. With the band. Yeah. It's so great to juvie. Yeah, and it's perfect. Kind of for now. You know, like, I can go and fly to the shows in like, major cities that we want to see. Or, like, I have my own career. I've taken two kids on tour. Bus Tour, like three times, like, months of living on a bus. As just like, I'm gonna, like put out a shingle and start telling fortunes or something like, I I can't do this anymore. You've done the hard work. Laughing like, you've been less schlepping now because they're old. But the schlepping of the baby crap. Yeah, yes. It's like That's the worst part. Yeah, that's why I hate the beach. Yeah, there's so much stuff. There is so much stuff. Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, then like, you know, you've to date the car seat. The car Student Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much to consider last you are new mothers out there. That's something I don't miss. I'll tell you. Neither, but then, you know, I look at the baby pictures. And I go. I'm a monster. About these angels. Yeah. Look, I'll thank you so much for coming on. Julian. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. And you too, and we'd be happy to be in touch again. Oh, thank you. And just before you go, do you want to share is it you've got to your books coming out my book, Behold, the monster is coming out another thing next July. Um, and there is also a documentary called confronting a serial killer that's streaming on most major networks right now. That's about me. Like it's limited, you know, five one hour episodes directed by Joe burrow injure and it's just about my relationship with Sam and and solving some of the cases. And super excited for the book. I'll be around talking a lot about crime. And strangely enough, you know, even moms have interests beyond macaroni collages Yes. We were true crime fans. Um, we're just like this part is relaxing. Are you getting turned on the DOM or documentary? You know, my website, Julian lauren.com. You can find everything there. I'm on Instagram actually and Lauren I'm on Tik Tok. Don't even ask. They talked me into it. It's kind of fun. It's really fun. Yeah, I haven't gotten you don't you have to do this mom. Like you have to do this. Or you're just not anything. Get with the time. Not going anywhere. Mom's ticked off. Anyway, good. Just Julie and lauren.com. Everything's there and preorder the books. Great. Yay. Thank you so much, and all the best and yeah, I'd love to chat again one day and yeah, keep doing what you're doing and and say hi to Scott for me. Yes, and go see Weezer. It's great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Season 2 Special Recap of Season 2 Special Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts We've come to the end of another year. As we say goodbye to 2022, I thought I'd take this opportunity to relive some of my favorite moments from the podcast over the past 12 months. It goes without saying that without my amazing guests, this show would not happen. They put so much trust in me. They open themselves up, make themselves incredibly vulnerable. They hand me all of their thoughts and their feelings. And they trust me to put it together and present it to the world to complete strangers, like you, dear listener. And it goes without saying that if it was not for you, then I probably wouldn't keep doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for giving these incredible mothers your time for inviting them into your homes. And I hope that by hearing their story, it gives you courage, it gives you confidence and it sends you a big virtual hug, to know that wherever you are in the world, we're all in this together. We all feel the same way. Enjoy this special episode to round off Season 2 of The Art of Being a Mum **We discuss mental health issues, miscarriage, body image and diet culture on this recap** Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio, Georgia Fields Australian indie artist and guest in Season 1, and Scott Maxwell Father's Day episode from Season 2 Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes, together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. We've come to the end of another year. As we say goodbye to 2022, I thought I'd take this opportunity to relive some of my favorite moments from the podcast over the past 12 months. It goes without saying that without my amazing guests, this show would not happen. They put so much trust in me. They open themselves up, make themselves incredibly vulnerable. They hand me all of their thoughts and their feelings. And they trust me to put it together and present it to the world to complete strangers, like you, dear listener. And it goes without saying that if it was not for you, then I probably wouldn't keep doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for giving these incredible mothers your time for inviting them into your homes. And I hope that by hearing their story, it gives you courage, it gives you confidence and it sends you a big Virtual hug, to know that wherever you are in the world. We're all in this together. We all feel the same way. And we all at times have a lot of trouble expressing that to other members of society. Thank you again. Enjoy this special episode to round off season two of the art of being a mum Kate Mildenhall, Australian writer podcaster and educator. I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re identifying as as as a writer and well I'm a professional out in this world. But also then I just come home and back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic and the rest of it. Monica Crowley, Irish printmaker, oils, artist and visual artist, I find it very hard to do a picture doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. Which is it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe I don't know. Is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, I started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took him I think when I became pregnant with my first child, just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit better, right. Jessica Mendez, Canadian water colorist and illustrator. Well I started was more, like I said, when, like our evenings became our own again, like when my daughter was around six months. And at that time, I've just kind of like, use the time that you need to, like, clean or do laundry and just boring things. Or if I wanted to, like sit down, I would just, you know, like scrolled the news, which is so negative during this time. So I just, I just wanted something that was fun and more positive. And it ended up being like a really good thing that I chose to do. Charlotte Conde, US artist, Illustrator, and designer. You're worrying about someone else all day, and you're meeting all their needs all day long. It feels almost like you're disappearing as a human being the roughest part for me. While it was so hard when they were little, and I felt lost sometimes was when my son went to school, though. Because then I was like, What am I gonna do with my life? Like? It's not like, they don't need me now. But it's a different need, like that kind of self sufficient. And they're going to school for a good chunk of the day. Like, what am I going to do? And that is when the art got pretty intense for me, because I needed to explore that for myself. Submit the red fin, British expat mixed media visual artist, this recurring dream, where we had a house and one day just discovered this door and opened a door. And it's this whole wing, like a house. Like there's stuff that we didn't even knew we had. And it's like, Oh, my God, when did we get bought this house this week. And you just like, I had this dream so often. And then looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're, there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring, and neglecting. And it's there the whole time going, come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like, because this is I've done, I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like, just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece, it was totally neglected. Semi line, us mixed media, paper artist. Life feel like I could sprinkle mom guilt across the world. And that's leftover like so then after after I hear all these other people say that they don't have it. I'm like, Okay, well, what is mom guilt to me? You know, because then it's like, kind of this really interesting question of like, well, what does that mean? And? And then when do I have it? And I never have it with the creative stuff. I think it comes back to you know, when I talked about sort of the core identity of being a creative and like, this is a lifestyle, instead of a choice. Yeah. And so I think where I have had the most trouble with mom guilt is, I feel like I always want to look at each individual kid, and try and make the best choice for that kid, you know, and in the pandemic, I feel like there were no good choices. Rosie Rutherford, British clarinetist and freelance musician. What's your thoughts about mum guilt? I feel like we shouldn't have it. But I think so many of us do. I think it just stems because you care. And you want to make the right choices for your children. And I think as mums, there's this thing isn't in there anything that you do for yourself. It's at the expense of doing it for your children. And I feel like now my attitude towards it has developed after like being on my third child, because I know, when I just had Ruby, you know, kind of anything feel really, really bad. And I wouldn't, I'd be like, Oh, no, I can't do anything for myself. I can't go for a run because the house is a mess. And I've got to do this. I've got to do the washing and everything before I do this little thing myself. And now, I'm a bit like, well, if I want to play my bass clarinet for 10 minutes, the house isn't there, then I'm just going to do it because I only have one life and it's not fair on everyone else that I'm resentful because I don't get to do it. Then Lin, Australian pianist and influencer in China Social Media what they tried to say that woman needs to wake up. So I guess it's a bit late, but at least they asked me to have this slogan. Woman You have to wake up. You're not just a mom. You're also different. So I guess the Australia this is so natural, like, I saw my friend like yesterday, they get butts today they already you know, grabbing the baby just at the workplace. Yeah. And you cannot do that you turn up people just like what are you crazy and that's why I love Australia because I just feel like I can race and I can do whatever I want. So I know I was born in China, but there are things I don't like. And what I'm doing now is I don't judge about the things I don't like I just support the things I like and let more people know about it. And I wanted to let people know about it no matter how many children I have, I'm still a woman get and masa kindler, Hungarian born flautist, composer, and pianist people around me, reduce me from this to this biological being, you are now a mother, you have to do this, this and this and this, and you should not do more. And we don't want more from you. This is now what you have to do. This is your responsibility now, to be your biological being. Not a person, not a woman, and not an artist. And in the first few months, I felt it. I was on the road with with my baby in the pram and you know, that people seeing in you just the mother, you will not recognize. Like, like a woman. This is this is a mother with a small child. And that was Kelly knives, Australian professional stylist. And I just thought, you know what, I just I need something I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like me and I, I genuinely think you know, it was the best thing I ever did in everyone's different some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. And like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. Alex McLaughlin, Canadian acrylic and watercolor artist. So is that where the watercolor started to come in a bit. Like you're just sort of testing out what else you can do. And that does have a lot to do with just like incorporating my practice into my life and trying to be more efficient. Because I've never really been able to involve my kids in the studio too much. I have two really active boys. I tried I really did try to to just be casual about it and set them up and then but yeah, my oldest was could not sit still he'd get into the the worst things, you know, like climbing the walls. So and I didn't want to say no, I didn't want to say no all the time. Right. So we kind of avoided being in the studio too much. earlier on. Now I am learning with a prefer rose Dela Cruz, New Zealand photographer. It was important for me to have a project for myself. That is outside the routine of taking care of baby taking care of everything, you know, running the household. Yeah, you know, something that was for myself a break because then once I once I had that, it was kind of like I was able to I don't know be more relaxed. Yeah, when I take care of her and she could feel that. Dr. Erica ball, US classical music composer, violinist pianist and educator. I've been to concerts by myself and people who knew me and they would you know make remarks like oh, you're missing bedtime. I'm so glad you came to the concert. Like I'm so sorry. I'd missed bedtime and I love missing bedtime. It is my least favorite part of day. Hi, I'm so glad to be here. My husband is perfectly capable of putting our children to bed. Yeah, he does it most states even if I'm home. Isn't that it's Interesting have the judgment people just assume that it's like, that's what you should be doing your mom, that's what you should be doing. It's like, hello, they have two parents like, exactly. Ah, it really frustrates me and comments like that they just don't go very far to help Donna Stevenson, senior dancer with the Australian ballet. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new man does. And she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk in my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So long getting to know both of us. myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jessica and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last. And they're at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top and it filters down, if you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you. That's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted, so therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else wouldn't be doing this better than you. Heather McClelland, UK based singer, songwriter, musician, composer, and music educator, I'm very much someone that like feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, I've got this quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like, we're quite driven. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to like this. And I want to, you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well jamming and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever, you know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things of having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. Chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too. Because yeah, definitely. Yeah. Five days, five days. Louise Agnew, Australian photographer. A lot of people believe and I added to that, once you're a mother, then you're complete. So there's this idea, this idea that becoming a mother will solve everything. But then once you become a mother, you don't feel like you're doing that job well enough all of the time. So therefore, you're not complete. And you have to keep this cycle of Yeah, that was just a thought that popped in. Ideal that you're working towards this thing, and that's when you reach the top, but it just keeps getting higher and higher. That point. The goalposts keep shifting, I thought it was Anjali Gan, Tasha mula, Karen Mila, and Camilla flurry representing mother Wilde, a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers to Mother themselves. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being, and it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working. She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, you can experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who, you know, is, is, yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit, and life, that part I can do. And my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. We wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And, you know, we kind of say that as well, like, whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curious seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices, and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids? And who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh, my gosh, he's right, why am I doing this. And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already, through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away, and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to get away. LED Australian music publicist, if you're trying to do something, and it's not working, it's not getting to you to where you want to go. Be creative and think up a solution. Think of a different doorway. For me, you know, I could have sat here 2020 When I was like, Well, you know, being a mum is not enough for me, I want more. I've got to just wallow in self pity and feel bad for myself. And I'm the victim. You know, at the end of the day, I I've kind of rose above those thoughts and went well, Can I switch? Course you can pocket. I've got a certain amount of assertiveness within myself, I have the self belief. I feel empowered. Fuck it, I'm going to make it happen. And I'm going to keep building on my empire of creative projects. And I'm not gonna stop Catherine Colette, Australian author and podcaster I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape, on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that sort of stuff, is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship and, like a real life relationship between perception and and that that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Danny van Australian hosts presenter and Master Chef staff, like I remember dropping off Harlow to daycare when I was doing that job I was talking about earlier going and chopping veggies and making these organic meals for people. I felt so bad about doing that. Like, I light up when I got there. You know, I felt good. I was able to just go into a job that I didn't really have to think about too much. And it made me feel good. But God I felt bad about just dropping off at daycare and picking her up. Light really light. And I feel like Yeah, it's like do we carry this guilt? Like why do we carry this guilt? I don't know if fathers are carrying as much guilt. I don't know. I don't know. I don't like Yeah, it's hard. But I feel like I do I have less guilt now. I would say so I think I've, I've think I've tried to accept that, you know, things are as they are. I'm still my own person. My kids are their person. We're all just trying to do our best. But yeah, there's still guilt around. SHAN Rong Janessa Jovic tore us violinist and music educator. Also I won't let my identity that's part of me. I don't want that to go. I want my children look at me in the future, when they answer understand. I'm in their eyes, I'm not only their mom, I want them to see that. During the hardest time, I never give up what I love. Because playing a violin teaching is what I love. And making music, be able to play with people is what I love. And I want my children to see that even through the hardest time, I have to make choice to give my life my time and attention to them. But I never give up what I love. And I always come back to it. Andrea Reyes, Australian mixed media visual artist and creativity coach. Well, here I go, like I'm into the next stage of my, my life and like I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like you kind of all for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing or who I was, I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me not like I wasn't in control of it kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything and Ms. Coleman, Australian indie musician, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty, can we all please feel guilty TKF. Just on the women, John Cook Father's Day episode, US conductor and educator, but the generation of our parents. They had to give up stuff. I'm sure that you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father, who was in the restaurant business was out every night. And come home till two three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them. You know? Yeah. And that certainly is not you know, your parents or my parents reality they had to give up things that they might may have wanted to do. But I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Mercedes roaches us claim maker and Potter. As a woman, it's a strange thing like the post feminist woman like we're no, we're, we're still expected to be these amazing moms. Keep a good house not look like a big mess. Right and like, show up for everybody all the time. And I think it does create a huge amount of guilt. We're like, we are never enough. There are never enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things for all the people and then I think the more than anything, we don't like there's no value on recharging for ourselves, right? Like it's almost like a like this weird luxury like, Oh, you're gonna go have quiet time for yourself for an hour and that's a priority for your life. What about your dishes, you know, and it doesn't create this like, very uncomfortable level of guilt. And it's like, Well, why don't you ask my husband about the dishes because he's a partnership. It doesn't matter how much we do. It is never ever enough. Shweta based Indian born photographer based in the United States, even now like every day that passes I, I see it better. I I see I see myself better now than I did then. And I was lost and I was very unhappy. And only I knew that. And I was I felt guilty that I had everything that I needed. I had a I had healthy children, you know how it is like you have a you have a happy family in a sense and And saying why do I still feel so empty? And and you know, I said, I'm a thinker. So what do I like what's going on? My children are flourishing and I was diminishing. There was something wrong there. And I think I had to acknowledge that Danny Oh, covenants Netherlands born author based in the US, technically I did, it looked like that on the outside, I had exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools. And something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time, I would beat myself up. Stop being so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy, why you're not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. Emily Johnson, US author. It's hard. I mean, that's the you know, people think physically being a mother is hard. But there is a lot of emotional second gasoline. And you know, and I'm doing this correctly, what you know, am I a terrible mother? Am I a good mother? Am I you know, am I completely screwing my kit up for the future? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about that unless their moms themselves. Fiona Valentine, Melbourne artist, and artists business coach, I think we're experts at coming up with guilt, over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living, right? Have I done enough? Am I enough, and just recognizing that part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason, creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it, it's not even just internal. It's, it's something outside of ourselves, and recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. Simone wise, South Australian visual artist, I'm encouraged by there are a lot of artists, female artists who are going strong into their older years, or even like, fully come into themselves as artists later on. So while I do get frustrated that I don't have the time to dedicate that I would like I still feel like I've got the foundations of skills in who knows what will happen in the future, I might have more time to push things further. Amy Siegfried, US podcaster and entrepreneur, my mom and I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she was since I was little till now, because a lot of the, you know, in her from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so, I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we, the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with a mixer and the whole nine yards. This is how mom does them. This is how Grammy doesn't and they're both okay. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of those things. And I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and her whatever that might be or, you know, we see people on Instagram who you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So yeah, I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do and what we just have to let go. Lisa Sugarman us writer, more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster. And I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest. In the same way. I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into you because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what, yeah. Bianca, Mara, US photographer and podcaster. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scroll on my phone. I just wasn't I, how many times are they going to be in the battle, it's like, you go into the role of like, I know, I know, A, B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuff myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I've never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like, I just felt like I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to, and I close my eyes. I was like, I can't see anymore. I can't I can't take it anymore. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about, about guilt and about. It's this, it's the knowing, it's that wise, like I get it. I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not, I'm not there. And I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments, makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment, you know, that is brilliantly put, honestly. Dr. Sophie Brock, Australian motherhood studies sociologist, what I really hope to try and do in my work and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self without mothering. And how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are, and have our own authenticity in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them. Kate King, US counselor and art therapist, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. Scott Maxwell Father's Day episode, Australian musician and educator. I know through experience that, you know, kids love kids like to sing, but sometimes they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and the kid might sound like a dying dog too. But that can really pay detrimental to that the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. Some of my best singers and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot and that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever. It is part of what my studio is still, I'm still experimenting. You know? I'm 50 years old and I can't stop Since I was 11 years old, Steve Davis Father's Day episode, marketing consultant, comedian, educator, and podcaster. Alexandra was born, Nadia was taken to a room to sort of recover. And I was taken back into the room and there was AJ, in a little caught. And I was quietly getting my laptop out to do work. And just as it was about to open, I was struck by fear that the first thing AJ would hear was the Microsoft music when the computer opened, and I slammed the lid, I couldn't let that be the case. And so I reached into my bag and brought out the complete works of William Shakespeare as you do, as you do, and I went over by her, and I read a sonnet to her. So that that was the first thing they actually heard. And then I opened up and I played Alexandra leaving, which is the Leonard Cohen song that she's named after. Fleur Harris, an Australian illustrator and designer, I realized that taking taking time for myself is important. And, you know, a couple of times, I've said to my husband, you know what, I'm gonna go and get a hotel room in the city. And I'm gonna go out for dinner by myself, and I'll be home tomorrow. Look, I've only done it a couple of times. But it's been at those points where I've thought, oh, my gosh, I am. I'm really maxed out here, like, stress wise. As or, you know. And I've gone and done that. And I've thought I haven't felt guilty about actually need is for the sake of, you know, my sanity and, and also, I'll come back, you know, better. And I almost feel like not doing those sorts of things is actually would actually be remiss of me in being a good member of my family. And a good mom. Janelle Thomas, Dubai based singer and songwriter. So then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gig that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it? Like physically, like we did? You must have like, a good birth and everything like good after? Or was it like really? I did. Like, I really, you know, I had great pregnancies. And the actual deliveries were a little bit tough. At times, I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like, convinced to join us on Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage. Everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said I'm sure you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. Yeah. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit because my feet are so swollen. And I thought and you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can like I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just I couldn't even put my feet in anything and so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is please everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible footwear. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah, but, but I got there. And I really, we you know, we played three sets and I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna take Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea, I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches, so I couldn't use it. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want to steal. I'm like, no, no, no steal, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like, cling on to the mic stand for the first few seconds. But, you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. And so everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see us, you know, even six months since we'd been there, because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually, the third set, good. The third set was better, and it was kind of, okay, well, this is the power of music that, but oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Now, when I look at it, I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys, let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like, I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Suzanne Kohlberg Australian writer, and coach, my mum never had friends. She never had hobbies. I don't want to say she was just a mom. That sounds horrible. I remember looking at her. And I was thinking, I don't want to become a mom, like, honestly, your wife kind of ends, you don't have anything. And it was interesting. I met my husband, when I was 18. When we got married when I was like 22. And we were never sure on the kids thing. I could be really honest. Like, I love my kids and everything. But we weren't sure. And then we decided we wait till I was 28. And then we would decide. So we had, you know, by the time I was 2810 years together. And then we were like, Okay, we have kids got pregnant the first month, I had a very lucky journey in that respect. But it was kind of like, I remember when we got the positive pregnancy test, he was over the moon. And I was just sitting there kind of like, whoa, because I didn't think I do is like this is what we wanted. And I was like, yes, but like there was a little bit of mourning there. And then I was like, I don't have to be the mum that my mom was Judy Richards, Australian mixed media artist. When when you're a mum of three young children, there's plenty it isn't out there. That you stress yourself out, because your house doesn't move a certain way. Don't worry about it. Don't let the things of other people's things get to you. I don't judge people by their homes. If I want to be friends with someone, and things get on top of them. My CDs now and visit them for them don't make people because that what happens is then you stop wanting people to come to your house. Because you put yourself in a box and you go, Oh, if that's what people think I don't want them to come and visit you. I'm not good enough to have people into my mind. Yeah, that's right. And it's not this not a nice feeling to have. Leah Franklin, Australian plant based chef and entrepreneur member having a discussion on the humanities floor at Grant High School in year 10. And you know, you're all standing around on What's everyone doing, and you're picking your subjects and all that. And I didn't realize it was going to be such an embarrassing topic. But everyone was saying, oh, you know, what are you going to do and someone was going to be a teacher and someone was going to be a pharmacist and you did it at air and, and I set out and it came around to me and I said, I just want to be a mom. And like it was just this deathly quiet because even then, it was an unusual thing for someone in year 10 To say they wanted to just be a mum. And it was just, you know, air quotes again. Yeah, just be a man. And they said, oh, and I said yeah, I can like I just want to have the house with the fence in the whole thing. And it's it's truly all I saw for myself. Khalifa Holland, Australian entrepreneur and business owner. I've always loved working in what I do. But I made that I always knew my mom was very much there for us like even though we had coffee shops and that my mom was a sort of person. Get off the bus. We had a massive drive thru on a farm. Don't be riding with get inside and nominate harmala When somebody called me up before us, so I knew that if I was able to I wanted to have that fortune. Rachel Lawson waiver us photographer and artist educator. I thought when I didn't see people like me in TV, or movies or magazines or catalogs I didn't think that, that the problem was them and representation, I thought that the problem was me. And if I could just make myself thinner and different, then I deserved to be represented. And, like, That's bullshit. And so, now that I have like a little bit of a platform, a little bit of a way to make images, a little bit of wit, a way to share those, I'm like, and I had to start, it's one of the reasons I'm, like, pretty passionate about self portraiture, because I wanted people of different sizes, and abilities and bodies to hire me. And I felt like well, I have to start by showing mine. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that especially photographers, if you want to be telling people, like, I want you to feel comfortable in your body, you kind of have to like, walk the walk and prove it a little like they can see through your BS. And so if you haven't really done the work, to love and accept yourself, the best thing I can do is model that. And then when I show up, I kind of show up and I give people permission to be like, I get to do this to Jillian Lauren, us best selling author and journalist, I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary, you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me, I was never going to give up my career. Sally refun, Australia's highest selling female author and illustrator. In the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I've missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, Liz Morton, US event florist podcaster and entrepreneur, I've learned that my mom wasn't exactly a like well rounded eater, she ate a lot of spirits, a lot of the same things. So I'm finding like, as a mom, myself, that my kids eat everything that I eat. So if I'm showing them that I'm eating broccoli, and like home cooked meals, they're going to want to eat them too. So if I'm not giving them those options, they're not going to eat them. And they're not encouraged to because if I'm drinking soda, my daughter wants to drink soda. If I'm eating a nice polite with turkey bacon, she's gonna love to eat that too. So it's just a matter of introducing them to the right things and setting a good example. Katie Callahan, US singer, songwriter and artist, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not going to pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and, and like maybe that's a choice maybe maybe, you know, maybe you know, either other songwriters or like this is my way of reclaiming, you know, an individual identity is to write was to not write about them. Not like them. But because my, my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my you know, environment and circumstance then they show up they keep showing up those girls and maybe not like overtly like this is the song about my daughter because only country singers can get away with that but uh, Elise Adlam, Australian philosopher and feminist women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives, as long as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your, your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this bed, Steven, Australian singer and songwriter, everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year, everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful, you know, so, and that's, you know, partner, System Manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And for that to be successful. Alex cynic is an Australian designer and engineer. One of the reasons why we don't you know, know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. If we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs. And, you know, part of this is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed, and it's best for baby bla bla bla bla, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? Where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we don't have funding for them? Are these problems that can feasibly be solved? You know, in science? Are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to prepare cash in that area? It's a little cynical, but I think it's true. genogram, US clinical social worker, and photographer. Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of, you know, like I said, I had taken a little bit of a break, when my kids were babies, I was kind of trying to juggle, you know, like life as a mom working in a very clinical, you know, very kind of demanding field at the time, I was in private practice work. And, you know, so it was just kind of me servicing these clients that had a lot of needs. And you know, it was a pretty high risk population, I've always worked, treating the field of eating disorders, and you can have a lot of medical complications and a lot of extra things, you kind of have to kind of keep tabs on from a medical perspective. And so I was juggling a lot at that time when my babies were small, and, you know, was just kind of increasingly able to work less and less because of difficulty with finding the right childcare. And, you know, my husband works in a job where he travels a bit and you know, commutes into the city, and sometimes it's gone long hours. And so, you know, it became obvious to me that, I just kind of felt ready to take a little break, I felt ready to kind of be home a little more and not try to do that juggle. So I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to take a couple years, and step away from that work. And in that time, I was loving being a mom. But I think I kind of had a combination of, you know, just all of the emotions that gets stirred up when you're a mom, and you're raising kids and wanting to capture it and seeing how fast it goes. And then I think I just kind of started to get really curious about, you know, it's like that I think the expression is like the date, the years are short, but the days are long, and I had some like long days at home with two very active young boys. And I just kind of got curious about what I was interested in. That could be a part of that day that could also be kind of meaningful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll be back on the sixth of January, with a new season of The Art of Being a mum

Jedda Glynn South Australian florist, designer and small business owner S1 Ep19 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Jedda Glynn is a designer and small business owner from Burrungule, South Australia and a mother of 3. Jedda Grew up in a small country town, surrounded by a creative family. She’s been a dancer her whole life, running the Kongorong Calisthenics Club for many years, and recently starting her own small business, The Springs Creative, where Jedda arranges rustic dried flowers, with the help of her young children. We chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life, the joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children and the importance of having a supportive family around her, and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. **This episode contains discussions around domestic violence and an abusive relationship** Connect with Jedda on Instagram Find out about Squib Group Find out more about the Kongorong Calisthenics Club Connect with the podcast here Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... elcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music played, and the link to find the podcast on Instagram. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thank you for joining me. My guest today on the podcast is Jeddah clean. Jeddah is a designer and small business owner from barren gold, South Australia, and a mother of three jeder grew up in a small country town surrounded by a creative family. She's been a dancer for her whole life, running the conga and calisthenics club for many years. And recently, she started her own business, the springs created where She arranges rustic dried flowers with the help of her young children. Today, we chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life. The joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children, the importance of having a supportive family around her and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around domestic violence and abusive relationship. MUSIC Today is used with permission from Alison Newman, and LM Joe. Welcome, Jenna, thank you so much for coming on today. Thanks for having me. Your project is called the springs creative. Can you tell us about that and how you got started and what you make? Um, well, it's very, a very new business. Earlier in the, my partner took myself and our kids on a little holiday up to Victor Harbor. And I just snuck away from them for a while and went through a little market that they had along the foreshore and I noticed a lady up there was selling like bunches of dried wheat and little ponytails and things which we see on the side of the roads down here everywhere. Like it's a very rainy, a lovely little nature. I concept I guess. Yeah. And that's, I don't know identities, were something that I can do here on the farm. I can go out exploring with kids. And we can cut down the branches of trees that we like or that have flowers in the garden. And we just tried to dry some and it worked out really easy. So I decided, oh, let's sell them for Mother's Day. So I put together I think it was 30 odd little recycled jars with some bunches in them and started a little Instagram platform. And it sort of escalated from there. And I had it was messaging me for weddings coming up this season. And then I decided to create a website. And yeah, the little businesses grown and grown from there. So we called it the springs creative because that's where we are in Baringo it's called a little area code the springs and where we live runs alongside the Springs Road so it's sort of just clicked that little Yeah, idea. Yeah, that's great. And yes, have a look on on the Instagram. Anyone that's listening to this because they're just gorgeous. They're They're very, it's it's different, isn't it? They? I guess because they're dry. They're gonna last and last and last. They're not like the fresh flowers that are gonna do they're gonna wilt in and die. They just look amazing. You've got a real talent to for these. Putting them together. Have you always been sort of a creative person making things? I guess so. Even as a little girl I didn't have that many dolls I was writing to pencils and paper and drawing and in my room and making things my my mum and my And both bananas are right into quoting and making. So I've always had that, you know, a home I guess my dad's even quite creative being he's a farmer as well. Making things out of junk like building things and building machinery very clearly like that. And then when I was younger, my mum got me into calisthenics. So I've been in dance my whole life. I'm also a part of the conquering calisthenics club and running that club by myself as a coach. Yeah, so I've been into making costumes and sequencing and creating teens and yeah, smart my life I guess I love I love being a being hands in mind and in our guests during high school. I was in love with all the art subjects and design and things before before I go to maths and science like me, so yeah, it wasn't a great fan of school. But yeah. I can totally relate to that. Say you mentioned that your children help you gather and collect things for your work? Tell us about your children. I have three kids. I've got a son and two daughters. Yeah, what are they nearly nearly six nearly four and just turned one. Busy but a lot of my making and business planning I guess is done when they go to bed. So you spend all night doing your hypnosis because your daily times for your kids your day times for school drop offs in washing and housework. Yeah, it is. It is a big a big commitment to decide to open a business because you do have to give me your free time to to that. Yeah. That's it, isn't it? And especially having a little one too. I guess you're not. You're not guaranteed a full night's sleep either. So no, I am honestly very lucky. All the kids are great sleepers. They go to bed at seven and they they wake up at about seven the next day. So yeah, I am pretty strict on their routine. So I can by eight o'clock jump on in my office and get some stuff done. Yeah. Well, that's great. You mentioned about the farm. So do you do actually have a farm as well that you run? Yeah, my partner's a part of a family trust. So we're surrounded by family. There's Yeah. Every day there's something happening was sharing to be done. There's harvest and silage, there's Yeah, sheep work or whatever needs to have happen. They've also got a theory that they run as well. Yeah, so I am surrounded by a lot of business minded people. So it's been really great to bounce ideas. And they've actually shown quite a great interest in what I'm doing, which is exciting and encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have that support, isn't it? And especially with having three children, you'd sort of you'd need to have a pretty good support network around you. Yeah. And my parents lived down in Congress, they're not far away, as well. So yeah, my mom has my kids a lot for me to do my calisthenics. So yeah, go away to competitions and things like that. She Yeah, she takes all that on talking about the concept of mum guilt, you know, this idea that yeah, just supposed to be doing mum stuff all the time, and we're not supposed to do anything for ourselves and Yeah, my eldest three kids from a previous marriage. So I went through a lot of dv relationship. And I left that relationship when my daughter was only, not even one years old. So I've had them longer for a long time. I don't remember much of my daughter's life, because I was going through a lot of things behind the scenes. But I feel that the calisthenics especially, was my escape from what was going on in my home, I could go to castings, and be creative and find my happiness, then come home, and it wasn't okay. So then I moved in with my parents and I could, I could let go, I could be who I wanted to be, and find my happiness again. And I still, I still have a lot of mom guilt. Because I chose to be creative over being there for my kids. But now things are a lot different in a lot happier relationship, happier home, I can juggle both I can be creative, and I can be I can be mum, and can be present. Like it's been very different. Having my youngest and going through bringing her up and, and a little the joys of breastfeeding and things we support around me. It's been a lot. lot different. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess creating the springs creative. He's also something I can do with the kids like exploring the farm, going going out into nature, and oh, look at these wondering what that's going to look like in a couple of weeks after we've hung it up and dried it, or what color could we try and make this grass because we've been experimenting with dyes and food coloring and things to try and suck up into the stems and create new colors and things like that. So that's been fun to do with kids? Oh, yeah. It's almost like a little like, like a science project or so. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was, it was great to do through COVID as well, not their way here in South Australia had much COVID dramas, but it kept us saying that we could do a little bit of schoolwork in the morning and then get out in the garden. And we'll go for a walk around the paddock and see what we can find. Yeah, for sure. And it's like, I guess, I mean, the kids probably aren't on social media, the ages. But can they sort of delay See, they see the finished product? And they they sort of have an understanding that what they've Yeah, has made this beautiful product, I guess. Yeah, let my my daughter especially, I'll make up a bunch of flowers, and they've got to be delivered up to the hospital. Let's say this to a new baby. And she gets so excited that we're going to Yeah, make someone say brighter with something that we've made. Yeah, that's beauty. And that whole, that whole giving concept that it gives the learning that you can spoil someone without it being a toy or something materialistic it can be a bunch of flowers is enough for somebody as well. Yeah. Yeah, that's really lovely. Do you mind if we delve into this previous relationship a bit more? Is that appropriate? Obviously, if there's anything you don't want to talk about, I'm just interested this the connection that you you raised about the way that being creative was like your outlet. It was your escape. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk a bit more about that? Is that? Yeah, well, at the time, I was teaching classes at the Congress home. And, like it was a commitment, good scribble gene for classes, two or three times a week. I had to go. I couldn't be having a worse day. But at four o'clock, I had to be there to open a hole up for these kids to come in for their classes. Like when I opened that whole door and walked in. It was I'm free, like, I can do what I want to do for the next year and a half. But when I shut that door and walk out, I have to go back to reality. So I guess it was it kept my, my my I know my gears going it kept kept me alive. You could be honest that. Yeah. And then when I guess when things got to that point where I decided that enough was enough, it still was my, my my little I was my therapy, I guess I could I was going through counseling, going through mediation and things. And yeah, I can be really stressed out. And it was my Yeah. A little a little escape from what was really going on in my life. Yeah. forever grateful for those those kids. I have no idea of what they helped me through. But yeah, they got me through some of the darkest days. Yeah, yeah. And that sense of community. I suppose having having people around you that valued you. And looked up to you. Yeah, yeah. With Yeah, definitely. I love being a part of small communities, because for that reason, your next door neighbor knows what's going on in your world. And they're there for you. Yeah. Well, yeah. My parents were my brother, my sister in law. And then, after 12 months of living with my parents, I moved into a home with my kids, just me and the two kids. And we're only a few doors down for my parents and my brother like it was a little safety net. And yeah, we got we got through it. Yeah. I met my current partner and moved down to Cancun for the first time in my life. When he moved 10 minutes up the road into Boingo. Yeah. Well done. Good for you. Yeah, that's a great, it's a great outcome. You know, you hear a lot of a lot of things not going going the other way when it comes to domestic violence. And I always consider myself one of those lucky ones. Yeah, I felt I felt like I had people behind me to push me through through that mountain because a lot of girls get to that point and they turn around if you go back to like it. I totally understand why girls go back. And it's not only girls it's guys too. But when I took those steps it was crazy how many doors were open for me with counseling. Support hearing about Gambia there's a lot a lot of things I didn't even realize to exist for people ya know, I met some amazing humans who encouraged me to keep going to keep climbing Yeah, I got there in the past I guess yeah, let's go yeah you born and bred in Congo wrong. Usually I've lived here my whole life and even the ceramics which is a beautiful area. It's only what would it be from the man it's like 15 minutes would it be yeah if that Yeah. So we're right on the highway so pretty much where the Grand Council turns to what arrange Council? Yeah. And there's the old springs hole that's still there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Often drive past that and think Oh, wonder how many lovely you know, dances and parties and stuff. They have their history around this. Phenomenal No luck there. The beautiful old homes at the old Baringo homestead there on the hill. Yeah. Love beautiful properties, like the hills and green grass and the scrub lands and stuff like that. And then like then all you can see is the bluff as well. Yeah, some fucking mornings. It's really quite eerie. When you look at over. Yeah. It's a beautiful park. That's the thing. I guess. Most people would just drive straight through there. They're on their way to somewhere else. And they just, you know. Yeah. I always did like living here in Congo. He drafted like, oh, every now and then to go to football or netball. You never paid any notice to him? Yeah, yeah, that's it, isn't it? We used to spend a lot of Sunday drives driving around with mom and dad that was just sitting on a Sunday. Go for a cook For, ya know that that tracks between here and anywhere, my dad knew them. So we spent a lot of time driving around, which I probably took for granted as a as a teenage girl or even a bit younger like I was, this is so boring. And it's my going home. And now I love it. Driving around, we decided to go in a different way home every now and then. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. And like, yeah, you kids, you kids who grow up with that different sort of view on the world, too. I suppose that there's all these hidden hidden places that people don't know about and all this cool stuff. It's a great lifestyle raising kids in, in the country and on a farm that they they see and learns things so differently. My son knows about the birds and bees now like he's just worked out for himself. Like when I was pregnant with my youngest, Haney how it all happened. So the Rams in the shape have it. That's one less conversation you've got to have as anyone have to even think about it. I guess to then the concept of death to life and death. It's not a dog. Because they see it, you know, often, I guess, yeah, like that we eat our own meat off the farm like lamb and pork. You know, kids know where it comes from. They know. They know what goes into what they have to they may the hard work that goes into raising the lambs to be that to that point, and when they go on the back to the abbatoirs. Or if the when the pigs go to the piggery from the piggery to abiqua. And they know what's happening where they're going. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's a great thing to teach children. I think too, because there's no denial then. You're not hiding things and no wedding milk comes in this year. Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a that's a good one. I think. Not recently, even a couple of weeks ago, I think my pop said to me Oh, I saw this article the city kids they don't even know where milk comes from. And it's kind of like a joke but I think it's true. You know, like there's so many kids that are detached from from that they don't understand they probably think it just goes it's in a factory in squirts out of some big machine you know, it's not Yeah, connection. Yeah, yeah. But then we don't know what goes on in city life like what it's like to ram or bus or gosh, like, yeah, yeah, what it's like to drive around you around in a car park at the shopping center trying to get apart. We don't have to deal with that. Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. I've never thought of it that way that's really good. perspective or even when it's like to walk to school we drive to school or drive the bus stop or not that we're hugely remote but we are in a way Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it isn't it? All these little differences and we just I guess we take for granted what we know and don't think about what we don't know the concept of identity is something that I love to chat to moms about on the podcast. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Like is it important to you to sort of put in air quotes to be more than just a mum to have your own your own identity and your sense of self? I guess I guess I know Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before kids Saturday nights it shadows or I don't know even just little adventures I used to do back in the day is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mum you have to let go of that life yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids slow development and their their health and well being is above above yours. Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant you can't be unwell. You've got to be that for that therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed to put my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Yah, yah, yah. Yah, I love being on I probably love I love being a stay at home mom, I'm very lucky that I can have that role. But yeah, you don't can't get a break. I don't get to go to work and have seven hours without my kids. I've got to be with them. 24/7 so that so that time when they're in bed and you're doing, you're doing your thing that is that is really precious. Isn't it that time that you get? Yeah. And that that they use my time? Yeah, that's my, my. My therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess you you've got to look at look at it like that, that you can use the time that you aren't with your kids to be productive, but also using it to have your time out of work. You've got to go to trade like that, like your time and Once Upon a Time was going out for dinner with friends are going out getting your hair done, but you're going to look at it differently that that's a trait it's not your everyday. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And even even having an opportunity to go to Woolies and get some groceries without the kids such Some. Some new time. Yeah. Yeah. You're still doing your mum work. It's it's your chance to Yeah, timeout or that moment before school pick up and you see the car on your phone. But your your time? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it think things take on this new perspective? And? But yeah, you're right. Like it's in finding those little moments, and then being aware of how they're fitting in for you. And not just sort of not just sort of going through the day, like mindlessly I guess. Yeah, yeah. Really pinpointing those moments saying, right, this is my time and you know, owning it and making the most, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it could be a morning the kids sleeping that little extra 20 minutes, and you get to watch sunrise on TV and have your coffee hot? Like it's yeah, those things. Yeah. Yeah. That's your time. A little things before before the answer. It's working, really getting down to the road. It's a little five minutes of freedom. I think that that sort of shifting perspective, it's, it's challenging, but I think that looking at it that way will help a lot of people too. I think just just shifting, shifting the way because yeah, life life is not going to all of a sudden say, Hey, I'm gonna look after your kids for two weeks while you go on a holiday. You know, it's an if you've got to, you've got to sort of find those little moments in the in the mundane every day, day to day activities. Yeah, and you also got to find that. I guess in your relationship to that mum and dad can have their time out when they want to, it's okay. If dad wants to go fishing or whatever mums allowed to go, go for a walk or go do what she likes to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just all about mum. Both and the kids, the kids also need to see that. We both we both can go do what we're gonna do. We don't have to be at the same time, I guess. Like, yeah. Yeah, like, we both can go do our own things. As parents, we don't have to rely on each other. I guess. Like, yeah, you can have something for yourself. Do something by yourself. It doesn't have to always be with someone. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, like our relationship is like dunking, going go fishing, or go catch up with his mates or his brothers in so so it's okay. Like, it's not. We have to do everything all together all the time. Yeah. And if I go down to the sick, catch up with my friends, or go to dancing or whatever, that's, that's okay. It's yeah. Yeah, it's great for the kids to be able to say that it's not to stand like the strength in relationships. You know, you don't have you have to be with each other all the time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess I guess the lock the lifestyle around. Things don't stuff on the farm. You can't have Saturday and Sunday off. Things still need to be done. The weather's right after the sun been near like this weekend. We weren't planning on doing anything as such, but we ended up sharing 15 games, but yeah, the kids and I had planned to go to narracott yesterday, so we still went and yeah, we still got to do what we plan to do. Yeah. But yeah, things on the farm still have to be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And I guess that teachers, sort of models, I guess, like that adaptability and that resilience. I suppose that if whatever is thrown at you, you've you've just got to deal with it at that time. And yeah, yeah. And it teaches the kids too, that plans change, as well, that it's okay. It's not something you fit. Yeah, it can be disappointing, but you keep up and walk on. And it goes on. Yeah. Because change is a big a big thing for anyone, for adults, but for children, especially when plans change. So I think that's, that's a really valuable thing for for kids to grow up with that idea that it is okay for things to change. And, and it's not a thing to be scared of, because I think a lot of people are asking. Yes, yes. Yeah. I've never thought of this stuff before. It's really cool. It's like your children are getting this their own special brand of, of life education, I suppose. Will these these little thick tools? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I guess I was, I was brought up the same like I was brought up that you talked about what you want to talk about, get it sorted out, there's no worrying, there's no need to go round and round in circles so that you can you can find a solution to a problem. Yeah, work it out and move on. Or? Yeah, yeah. And talk it out rather than, you know, dwell on it, hide it and internalize it and go around around around forever. Sometimes I still overthink everything. It's what we do as humans. A blurry that things are the same things. And then ends and you move on you just Yeah. Yeah, I'm blown away with our area, like, how supportive other small businesses are of small business startups. Yeah, it's fantastic. That you can reach out to other little businesses and they'll give you a heads up on things or CVS, things like I had, had a couple of girls. Say, Go for it, go to the library, market, get yourself and your branding out there and see what happens. But just Instagram alone has been amazing for me. The followers and the shares. Yeah, the inquiries for weddings has been amazing and exciting. It's exciting to share that happiness with those people. Because a lot of them have had their weddings canceled because of COVID. And to be a part of that excitement for them, and then they're still worrying that things will get canceled. But yeah, yeah, that's, I'm really looking forward to got my way our first wedding coming up on the 20th of November. So yeah, I'm super excited to. Yeah, bring all those ideas out and show what we what we can do. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. And then to see where things go, like if we can get more into the wholesale of dry flowers. The boys this year have a lot of wheat crops in two of my partner's brothers own a business in Millicent called squeak group, which is a stock feed plant so they make a lot of canola meal and canola oil and other products as well, which has been super exciting watching them growing their business. Like it's a multi million dollar thesis, but my little flowers is flooding along but it's so good having family that around, like who are very business minded and say you should be doing this you should be doing that. Have you thought about this or? Yeah. How much did you make on it this week? What was your profit like? You should be looking at this. You shouldn't be doing that. Like I'm just a little, little, little check making some flowers. It's no big deal. No. It is great having having people like that to bounce off decisions, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing even though you you're the scale might be a little different, but they might, you know, have a suggestion of something and you go, Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, one night, every now and then they have a fire and catch up at our place. And I was saying how much dried wheat is on the wholesale market. And they all is what you can make a driveway in their crops and firewood with scissors, cutting down wheat. So I'll make a profit off their crop, so it shouldn't be fun. And even like, fracking, we've got all our scrub weeds that we spray for weeds. Yes. Huge, popular over in America like looking at the summer. And bouquets they've got those in there bouquets. Like that's something I've got my back door. Yeah, easily. Yeah. So it's cool watching trends from overseas that come into Australia and yeah, trying to get my head around things and what all the whatever on locks and yeah, that's, that's awesome. Again, that perspective shifts like something that that we spray we get rid of, because it takes you know, takes up room in the grazing and it's just a pest. People People love and they want in their bouquets. It's like the Pampas grass and things like that. Like it's, it's classed as a weed. Yeah. And I've been looking at, had a lot of people inquire for me to post them bouquets or post them arrangements, so looking by security in different states, and each state has a different role. It's amazing how Australia can be one country but have all these different laws in different states. Yeah, okay. Hey, Sydney. I've really liked to get into his posting them, but it's going to be very complicated to do it. Yeah. Oh, it sounds like you've got some fun coming up in the future. Yeah, hopefully, building and growing. Yeah, hopefully. I feel like I've finally found my little niche and my little, little thing and laughter run when I left high school in 2008 with no clue at all what I wanted to do following year 12. So it is nice. It's nice to finally find my my life but yeah. life a life that I can still be mom and still be there. For school pickups and drop offs or volunteering at the canteen or whatever. I can still do both. Yeah, I need to see where things go. That's for sure. Yeah, well, absolutely. I'll be I'll be watching. I'm sure a lot of people will be after this. Because yeah, it's a great story. And I'm really, yeah, and your products are beautiful. You know. I just thank you for having me. Yeah. I love listening to your thought your podcasts and very interesting guests you've had on so yeah, and it seems foreign to someone like me. I'm just a little little piece of the pie out here so young. It's nice to Yeah, listen to other people's journeys and find inspiration from what they've done. Yeah, it's good. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet. Age to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Jenn Book Haselswerdt US educator, playwright + dramaturgist S4Ep101 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week on the podcast is Jenn Book Haselswerdt, a multi passionate creative and mum of 2 from Missouri USA. Jen is an Arts integration teacher, playwright and dramaturgist , but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating, from pottery to knitting and baking. Jenn was first drawn to the theatre through 'Annie' the musical. She was a professional through College, had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she wanted to teach and write in the theatre. Jenn holds an Undergraduate Degree in Theatre, and a Masters Degree in Theatre, History and Criticism. She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of the art pieces. **Jenn's episode contains mentions of anxiety and depression** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:19,000 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:28,000 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms 4 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,000 and we also strain to territories such as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:42,000 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch 6 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,000 and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. 7 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:55,000 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at any time you're concerned about your mental health 8 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:02,000 I urge you to talk to those around you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 9 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:10,000 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:18,000 The Art of Being a Mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on as being the Boanduk people. 11 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:30,000 I'm working on land that was never seeded. 12 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Hello and welcome to another edition of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me from wherever you are in the world. 13 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,000 It is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Jen Book-Hasselswert. 14 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Jen is a multi-passionate creative and a mum of two from Baltimore in the USA. 15 00:01:48,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Jen is an arts integration teacher, a playwright and a dramaturgist but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating from pottery to knitting and baking. 16 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Jen was first drawn to the theatre through the musical Annie. 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:15,000 She was an actor through college and had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she actually wanted to teach and write in the theatre instead. 18 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Jen holds an undergraduate degree in the theatre and a masters degree in theatre, history and criticism. 19 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:30,000 She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. 20 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,000 She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of various art pieces. 21 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Please be aware today's episode contains brief mentions of anxiety and depression. 22 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:56,000 I hope you enjoy episode number 101. Thanks again for tuning in. 23 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Thank you so much, Jen. It's such a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for coming on. 24 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Thanks for having me. 25 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:09,000 Such a pleasure. And we were just chatting before we hit record that I'm in your future right now. 26 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,000 It's Saturday at 1pm in Australia and what time did you say it was over there? 27 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000 It is Friday night at 10.30pm. 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,000 There you go. Well, we're still here. The future is still guffing. 29 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000 It's so bizarre to think like that. 30 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:34,000 I always love on New Year's Eve when, because we're one of the first, apart from Auckland, Sydney is one of the main first ones to go. 31 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:40,000 And I love just sitting there through the day and just watching all the other countries go through their big fireworks. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:48,000 And it feels so weird when you're sitting in bright sunshine on a really hot day and you're watching people in the snow in the dark. 33 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,000 It is so cool. I love it. 34 00:03:50,000 --> 00:04:05,000 Well, I have to tell you, my son is 12 years old and he is really excited that I'm talking to someone in Australia right now because a video game that he was really looking forward to came out today. 35 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,000 And all the YouTubers who he knows have gone to Australia so that they could get the video game first. 36 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,000 Oh, wow. 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,000 And record all of their YouTube. 38 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Yeah, like reactions and what game is that? Do you know what it's called? 39 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,000 It is Tears of the Kingdom. 40 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Yeah, right. 41 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,000 It is the new Zelda game. 42 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,000 Oh, yes, yes. I know the one. 43 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 Yeah, yes. That is a very popular. That's been going for a long time too, hasn't it, Zelda? 44 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:45,000 I mean, yeah, I'm I'm 43. And like I remember playing a Zelda game back on 8-bit Nintendo back in the early 90s. 45 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000 Yeah, yeah. Good old Zelda. She's still going. Good on her. 46 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,000 So what part of America are you in, Jane? 47 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:05,000 I am in Missouri, which is in kind of like the middle of the country. 48 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:15,000 Kind of fraught right now. But I'm from Baltimore, which is in Maryland close to the East Coast. 49 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Oh, yes. 50 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Yeah, I was from the Atlantic Ocean. 51 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,000 You would be amazed the amount of people I've had on here from Maryland. 52 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:31,000 I can't say it right. I say Maryland. Yeah, I reckon I've had three, three episodes with people from like Baltimore or near Baltimore. 53 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000 Yeah, there's something going on in that part of the world that's just coming to me. 54 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,000 We embrace kitsch in a way in Baltimore that like no no other place does. 55 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,000 And so I think we kind of breed arts loving people. 56 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,000 Yeah, I love that. It's so cool. 57 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Yeah, and I'm starting to get better with my geography of America. 58 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So yeah, I appreciate when you say you're sort of in the middle. That's my mental thing. 59 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000 Yep. Yep. 60 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,000 So my parents live in Maryland. My brother lives in Los Angeles, California. 61 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:16,000 And so I'm about 1500 miles from each. From each of them. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful visual. That makes sense. Yes. 62 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:23,000 But I still forget which side is Seattle on the West Coast. It is. Yeah. 63 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Sometimes I get confused because New York's on the East Coast, isn't it? 64 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Yes. That's cool. 65 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,000 And Seattle's in Washington State and Washington, D.C. is on the East. 66 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,000 How did you manage that? 67 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,000 There are too many, you know, wanting to name things after the same exact people. 68 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Why there, you know, I'm in Columbia, Missouri, and there's Colombias all over the place. 69 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Everywhere. Yeah. Yep. Yep. 70 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:57,000 Oh, there you go. It's interesting. I love all these things I get to learn. It's all fun. 71 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Actually, when I was a kid, I used to play this game. It was called Where in the World is Carmen San Diego. 72 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And that was one of my favorite games. Yes. And I used to love like I liked that one more, the original more than the time travel one. 73 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,000 It was something I did like the time travel. But yeah, that just made me realize all these amazing places in the world. 74 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:21,000 And I think that was the start of me being fascinated with I had to get pen pals so I could talk to people. 75 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,000 And then my fascination with the weather, what it's like in other places like I don't know. 76 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,000 It's built from that that game. It's opening my eyes to it. Yeah. 77 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,000 It's the only way I know nation's capitals. Yes. Yeah. That's so true, isn't it? 78 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Hey, on weather, what what's it like there at the moment? What's your right now? It is humid and muggy. 79 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:53,000 Yeah, it is. We had a really cold snap and very late cold snap with the garden. 80 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Gardens kind of froze up and none of the plants knew what to do. Yeah. 81 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:05,000 But now it's 85 degrees and very, very humid. I'm just going to work that into my conversion. 82 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah, I'm still I'm still I don't have a match. Oh, yeah, that's nice. 83 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,000 Yeah, that's warm. Yeah. But muggies. Yeah. Yeah. Make it a bit uncomfortable. 84 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,000 No, not muggy. Yeah. There we go. All right. Enough of my random questions. 85 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:36,000 I have nothing to do with anything. I just indulge myself. I love it. Oh, dear. 86 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:02,000 So you're obviously a mother, Jen. And I love on your your Instagram how you say you like like the coziness of creating things that are cozy. 87 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:08,000 And so you do all sorts of different things. So, yeah, share with us what you like to create. 88 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Sure. So I stole the phrase from this influencer named Deanna Joy, which is multi-passionate creative, 89 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:25,000 which I think sounds so much better than dilettante. So I my first love is Twitter. 90 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:33,000 But when we're talking about the the creating I do with my hands, I love baking. 91 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:39,000 I love pottery. I love quilting and other sewing. 92 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:46,000 And kind of all those things that make you feel warm and cozy. Yeah. Now, I'm sorry, I cut you off. 93 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:53,000 What did you say your first love was? Well, my first love was theater and still is. Oh, magnificent. 94 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Oh, we're going to get on very well. So, yeah. So straight theater or musical theater? 95 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:15,000 Mostly straight because my voice was never well, my voice is OK, but my dance skills were never at a place where I could. 96 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Nine years of ballet didn't do anything for me. Yeah. 97 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:32,000 But yeah, so straight theater. I actually have my undergraduate degree in theater and master's degree in theater history and criticism. 98 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:44,000 And I work with companies on new play development and reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays and things like that, which is 99 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:54,000 really the most nerdy fun you can possibly have. But that just sounds so fascinating, like getting to delve into stuff in such a deep level. 100 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:03,000 And you said criticism. So that means you can be like a proper critic and give like proper critiques on plays and things. 101 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Yeah. Yeah. And my sort of my sort of outlook on things, which informs the way I teach to is, you know, saying I like or I don't like really doesn't help anyone in their creation of theater and their creation of whatever. 102 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I also work with a gallery in town to do similar work with some of their gallery shows teaching about the history of the art pieces. 103 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:53,000 But to ask questions about the creation and ask questions that might lead to more questions that might lead to playing with what answers might be is just such a fun collaborative way to work that playwriting doesn't have to be 104 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:01,000 a solo endeavor. And, you know, you can it's called a play for a reason. It should be fun. 105 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:37,000 This particular guy in Australia, his name's Peter Gers and he's very, I don't know, well known in South Australia, not probably the rest of Australia and certainly not internationally, but he's a theater critic. 106 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And over the years, he's he's he's made it. He has a radio show and he used to be an actor. And he basically I remember him saying once about critiquing theater, that there was absolutely no point in belittling people or saying, you know, they did a terrible job. 107 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:12,000 You know, it's all about recognizing the amount of effort they've gone to, what their intention was behind the piece. Maybe the delivery wasn't, you know, quite what they had hoped or, you know, beyond the level of what he might have expected or whatever. 108 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:22,000 But there's no, there's absolutely no point in just bashing people, you know, when they're having a go. Is that something you could sort of relate to? 109 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,000 Absolutely. I think I was taking a professional development one time. 110 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And there was an article that we read about the power of positivity in working with something like this with with art criticism, and I absolutely burst into tears in the middle of class, because I had always been called, I don't know if you do you know the movie 111 00:13:45,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Pollyanna? Oh yes. Kaylee Mills, like the 60s or 70s. So I'd always been called a Pollyanna because I am very positive about things. And it had never, you know, being a teenager in the 90s, when, you know, it was cool to be aloof and ironic. 112 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Yeah, but being a positive person was really difficult and being positive about things, you know, people kind of looked at it as though you didn't have a critical bone. That to be critical meant to be nasty. 113 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:34,000 And, you know, darn it, I was 15 years old, I like the Spice Girls and I wanted to be able to like the Spice Girls. Yeah, yeah, you know, but I couldn't. 114 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:55,000 You know, reading this article about the power of positivity just struck such a chord with me that it should be about buoying up what's good about things and striving to make those things that aren't at that level, to that level, rather than bringing everything down. 115 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Yes, yeah, that's a really good way of saying it, isn't it? It's like you're, I don't know what the word is, it's this constructive criticism, I guess. It's things that can help people to make changes or, you know, look at things in a different way. 116 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:21,000 It's not just a straight comment that's, you know, with no possibility for any further, anything. It's like, a statement that's not helpful at all. 117 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:37,000 I think like when we're talking about, you know, being, you know, so criticism doesn't have to be critical, right? So like, when I'm working with a playwright on developing a new script or a new piece of theater, you know, who cares what I like? 118 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:51,000 What I like isn't necessarily going to be the same thing that an artistic director is going to like, or that the lady in row six is going to like, or the man in row seven, they're all going to like different things. 119 00:15:51,000 --> 00:16:09,000 So what's the purpose of saying I like this or I don't like that? But what we can do is say, hey, I noticed that in Act One, your character says such and such, but that never comes back in Act Two. It seemed really important in Act One. 120 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:17,000 Was it important in Act One? And being able to ask those questions to help structure that piece. 121 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:26,000 And play, you know, I keep coming back to the word play. Play around with those answers and hopefully ask more questions. 122 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:41,000 You know, it's kind of like a, I guess, like, I mean, this is a person who knows nothing making this statement, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like it's like a book editor kind of like you're looking at with eyes outside of who wrote it. 123 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:54,000 And you can pick up stuff like, like you said, like, is there a theme that seemed important then didn't get continued or something come up all of a sudden or where did that come from? Like, there's no background to this, whatever. 124 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,000 That's kind of, I guess, a layman's way of describing it. 125 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:12,000 For sure. So like, so the it's called like Dramaturge, which is the same as it's the German word for playwright. 126 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:34,000 And so, but we, I mean, I do write plays, but when I'm Dramaturging, that's not being the playwright. And so I kind of, so someone who practices metallurgy shapes metal into something beautiful. So someone who practices dramaturgy helps shape drama into something beautiful. 127 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,000 There you go. 128 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 That's so cool. I love that. 129 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,000 I learned a new word today too. 130 00:17:43,000 --> 00:18:08,000 That's awesome. 131 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Do you recall being a child and just like how you got into your love of theater? Where did that come from? 132 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:39,000 I, that's a great question. I remember going to, I remember whether it was watching the movie Annie or going to see a play, but I remember that it was Annie specifically and looking at the children on stage and going, I could do that. 133 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:46,000 And so I started going to theater camps when I was five. 134 00:18:46,000 --> 00:19:06,000 And, you know, just kind of being in plays and my theater camp that I grew up with was also at a swim club and did kind of sports stuff too because it's trying to be all things to all people. 135 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 And then John Waters movie was filmed there, speaking of Baltimore. 136 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 So that was super fun. 137 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:26,000 But, you know, they were very specific that we had all of us had to take music and dance and make the sets and the props for the play. 138 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000 So kind of, kind of, you know, well rounded in that way. 139 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:48,000 And then I was in all the plays in middle school, which is sixth to eighth grade here. Yeah. And then in when I was going into ninth grade, a new school was opening up that was arts focused. 140 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 And so I went there. And so I've been a theater major since the time I was 13 years old. 141 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:03,000 And John never told us that there was anything beyond you could be an actor or you could be a director. 142 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:13,000 I mean, I guess I knew in my head that you could make scenery and things like that. But really like when you were studying, you're either going to be an actor or a director. 143 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:29,000 And I was like, you know, with acting all the way through, you know, graduating from college. And then I was a professional actor for a hot minute. 144 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:49,000 And I had always wanted to do and what I've been saying since maybe second grade was I want to teach. I want to write. I want to do theater. And when I found dramaturgy and also teaching. 145 00:20:49,000 --> 00:21:09,000 I'm an arts integration teacher for my full time job. Those things. That's what it is. It's you know, dramaturgy is using teaching to fulfill the arts and arts and teaching arts integration is using the arts to fulfill education. 146 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:21,000 And so those things really. It's what I wanted to do since I was in second grade. Yeah. And it was like, it was just. 147 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 You just hadn't discovered that that was a thing yet. 148 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:45,000 And it was actually my roommate when I was 22. She was she told us that she was leaving to move to another state because she got literary management as dramaturgy internship at a theater out of state. 149 00:21:45,000 --> 00:22:01,000 And at the same time, one of my friends from high school got a gig on Broadway in the show Mamma Mia. Oh, wow. And I was jealous of my roommate, but wanted to congratulate my friend who was going to be an actress on Broadway. 150 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:09,000 Yeah. I thought, wait a minute. Yeah, perhaps I need to examine my life. Yeah. 151 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:25,000 There you go. Oh, how cool is that? Yeah. And that's the thing. Like I found in. I don't know this all these little worlds that you have no idea about. You know, like in talking to people just through this podcast, like discovering all these other things you can do. 152 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:42,000 If you know you want to be involved in art, you know, you don't. Sorry. There's not just, you know, the actual painter. There's all these other things you can be. And one of my favorite chats I've had on here was with an art historian, which I found so fascinating. 153 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:59,000 I was like, I feel like I've missed my calling because I love art. I don't make it very well, but I'm really fascinated in the history behind things and the symbolism and the imagery and how they, I don't know, express their ideas through different ways and all the different styles of art. 154 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Yeah. So this is really cool that I'm learning something. I bet you there's no one listening that has ever heard the word dramaturgy before. So, hey, and if you have, send me a message on my Instagram and I'll give you a prize or something because this is cool. 155 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:40,000 Yeah. 156 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:59,000 I'm going completely off path now that I know this stuff. Whoa, that I love it. I love it. What are your like favorite plays or things that have influenced you the most like actors or themes or anything? Just share with me things that you love about theater. 157 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:15,000 Well, I always, I think about musicals. I always think about musicals first because they are musicals are what I don't know captures everything. I don't know. I love Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim's work. 158 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Into the Woods is my favorite. 159 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000 The first act of Sunday in the Park with George. 160 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 The second act is not my favorite. 161 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,000 The first act is great. 162 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:41,000 I think that there is something in the way that he works his lyrics and music together. 163 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Being the person who who is able to do both. 164 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:57,000 And I think his command of rhythms are are amazing. I felt very 165 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:10,000 content is not the right word, vindicated I felt vindicated when I was listening to an interview with him and the interviewer asked, you know, how do you come up with your rhymes and he said I use a rhyming dictionary. 166 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,000 I was like oh me too. I felt I was so excited. 167 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,000 So he's, he's wonderful. 168 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000 His work is wonderful. 169 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Little Shop of Horrors is another favorite of mine, Howard Ashman and Alan Menken. 170 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 You know before they ever wrote the Little Mermaid. 171 00:25:32,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Their work adapting and when I write plays I do adaptations, mostly their work adapting just this weird little B horror movie into this amazing, kitschy work of musical theater is incredible and there's a moment in the movie where Rick Moranis, 172 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:21,000 he does a little riff, because he's you know very nerdy, the character, and he goes, I don't know, I don't know, and his voice just changes into this amazing passionate singer. 173 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,000 And being able to pull that out is is wild. 174 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:34,000 I am a big, I've always been a big fan of Wendy Wasserstein, who passed away. 175 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:49,000 Oh gosh, probably almost 20 years ago now but her work was one of the first, her, she and Carol Churchill I think were the first two sort of feminist playwrights that I had read. 176 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,000 And so their work was really influential on me. 177 00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:14,000 And there's some fantastic stuff going on in small theaters. Nowadays I really wish that Broadway would go back to championing new works and not reviving the old ones I will die on the hill that Oklahoma is a subversive piece of theater. 178 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,000 It really is. 179 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,000 But we don't need to revive it every two minutes. 180 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:35,000 It's interesting you say that I had a conversation with, back in season two, Dr. Erica Ball, who writes contemporary classical music in the US. 181 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:49,000 And we were having this conversation about that, why people keep putting on all these shows of Mozart and Tchaikovsky and when there's all these people that are alive today, and a lot of women too, 182 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:56,000 and people of color that are writing new music and why aren't we listening to that and why aren't they being put on. 183 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:12,000 And, yeah, it was this sort of this push and pull between the audience that wants to hear something familiar, because I think they will enjoy themselves more if they know what they, you know, they know it and they feel familiar with it, or the audience that wants to feel challenged 184 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:23,000 and wants to be pushed out of their comfort zone and it's a real quandary. And I guess it probably is a similar thing because at the end of the day, these things have got to make money. 185 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Absolutely. 186 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:47,000 Yes, and there's this whole conversation about how like the older people have more of the money. And so if we want to make money, we have to do what the older people quotes. Yeah, what they want to see is what they're comfortable with but what we're forgetting is that younger 187 00:28:47,000 --> 00:29:06,000 people want to be part of these conversations they want to support the arts people who, you know, can't necessarily afford, you know, to, you know, wear a suit to an evening of $500 theater. 188 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:23,000 They, they also deserve the arts they also deserve to see themselves on stage, be exposed to these different worlds and so there's, you know, yes, the arts need to make money. 189 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:40,000 And we need to, you know, keep bringing in the people who are going to pay for the things, but also not forget that there's a new and diverse audience out there who also needs to see this work. 190 00:29:40,000 --> 00:30:07,000 And there's a theater company in town here that does incredibly avant garde fantastic works and I've worked with them with dramaturgy a few times, kicking myself that I wasn't able to work on their new play, which is up this weekend, but they do these 191 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:28,000 quite specific works, and, you know, both that theater and the community theaters in town and the other professional theaters in town, make things very accessible to a diversity of audiences which I think is a really wonderful thing about our local 192 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:44,000 community here that you know yes you can go and see ragtime and Susickle, and also an immersive Frankenstein, you know, really fantastic. 193 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:52,000 Yeah, it's interesting isn't it's like the bigger things get the more mainstream they have to get to have an audience. 194 00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:20,000 And it is kind of disappointing. 195 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:28,000 So, thanks to the purpose of our discussion today, which I'm not apologizing at all for going off track and I'll probably do it again. 196 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,000 Thank you for having a grown up arts conversation with me. 197 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,000 I love it. I do love it. 198 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Yeah, so how many kids have you got Jen. 199 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:49,000 I have to. I have Mickey who is 12 and Eloise who's 15 months. Oh, gorgeous. I love that name Eloise that is such a sweet little name. 200 00:31:49,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Oh, that's beautiful. So, two kids at completely different stages of their, of their growing up, how, how you finding that the gap and I'm asking that because I've got seven years between my two. 201 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:08,000 And at times it can be very challenging, but how do you sort of navigate that the differences I suppose the challenges of that. 202 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:23,000 Yeah, we were very wishy washy for 10 years about whether or not we wanted to have another baby. And all of our friends were having pandemic baby so we thought let's have a pandemic baby and so we had a pandemic baby. 203 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:38,000 And, you know, we were really, you know, honestly nervous about how Mickey was going to handle, you know, not being an only child anymore after being an only child for 10 years. 204 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000 And their relationship is so sweet. 205 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000 She started giving real hugs, just a couple of weeks ago. 206 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:59,000 And she loves they they run at each other and he picks her up and she hugs him around the neck and it's, it's super sweet. 207 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:08,000 And I really like that you know there are things that you know that we do with Mickey that Eloise can't be involved with. 208 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:19,000 You know I took him to see wicked at a theater where two hours in either direction from the closest like big city. 209 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:27,000 So I took him to one of the big cities to see the tour of wicked, and she can't come. 210 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:38,000 Or, we're taking him on a behind the scenes tour of the zoo because he wants to, he wants to be a zookeeper. 211 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,000 And you have to be. 212 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:53,000 He is, we're specifically taking him behind the scenes of the reptile house. And you have to be over eight to come to go to the reptile house so there are these things that we only do with him. 213 00:33:53,000 --> 00:34:04,000 And I think that really helps, you know, strengthen that relationship, since, you know, a lot of attention has to be on her. 214 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:17,000 You know we can't do the same nighttime routine with Mickey anymore that we used to do because Eloise has an earlier bedtime and honestly, I fall asleep with her, a lot of the time. 215 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:24,000 And, but yeah, their, their relationship is really fantastic. I was just thinking the other day that when she graduates from high school. 216 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000 I'm going to be 60, which is very old. 217 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,000 You know, it'll be fine. Yeah, I've done that actually maintain that. 218 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:48,000 Yeah, yeah, that's love. That's really nice. And when you talk about that thinking to the future. I remember one day I was sitting in the car waiting at school pickup, and I worked out how many more years I'll be sitting in the car at this spot for school. 219 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000 I was like, Oh my god, like, it freaked me out for a second, but you don't think about that every day. 220 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:08,000 Yeah, you just, you just get on with your life but yeah I think the saddest moment for me though like I'd never had sort of any, like, sort of regrets or anything about the age gap because it just literally it happened how it had to happen, you know, it couldn't have happened any 221 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:22,000 other way. And, but then when I realized they'll never actually go to school together. I thought, Oh, that's a shame because I really liked, you know, having my sister at school and, you know, just, I think the ease of the drop offs and the pickups you know, one location. 222 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:31,000 But I was like, Oh, and that was really the only time I sort of had a bit of a moment but apart from that. Yeah, but how did you feel. Oh sorry you gone. 223 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:38,000 It's interesting to I work at, at a small private arts based school. 224 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:58,000 And there's a preschool and I work at the elementary I used to work at the preschool. And Mickey was already in elementary school when I started working at this school so we've kept him in public school and he's really thriving in public school. 225 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:08,000 And, Eloise is already registered at the preschool for when she turns to. So for all it's 2024. 226 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:29,000 And it's just a very different, you know, kind of, kind of thing I know from being an extracurricular teacher of Mickey's he's taken some of my theater camps and I used to teach an artful yoga class where you, the kiddos do yoga and then they do an art project that gets 227 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,000 into the creative space. 228 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:39,000 And it's just it does not always work out for me to be Mickey's teacher. 229 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:55,000 And, you know, it might be completely different with Eloise that you know she might be able to be my student and so just kind of thinking about the differences between having a child in public school and having a child in private school. 230 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,000 I mean I don't I don't know how she'll be, but you know, 231 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:08,000 Yeah, no, it's, and I've noticed the differences in how children are educated in the gap. 232 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Like, I don't know just the things that Alex used to bring home the eldest about how he was taught to read and particular things around maths and then Digby the little one, it's like they use completely different jargon about talking about things and sometimes I'll 233 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:34,000 find myself saying a thing that Alex used to do like with these called chunk it up when you had a really big, really big word, and you break it into two and it did be looking at what are you talking about. 234 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:51,000 I'm like, Oh, sorry, you don't say that you say something else now. And just get just these all these little differences. It's like, it's been quite interesting because I have my backgrounds in early childhood education so I found it really interesting to see how, you know, these new, I guess new 235 00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:04,000 research has been done and things like that over the years about how you deliver your content or whatever and all the all the new technology that's around now which wasn't around when Alex was a little tucker. 236 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Yeah, Mickey, Mickey asked the other day. He was like, Why do you keep changing my rules about how much screen time I'm allowed to have, like how much time on the switch and how much time on the iPad. 237 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:26,000 Because we don't know what we're doing. No one has ever had to do this before. Yeah, we have no idea. 238 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:45,000 I love that. Oh, I love that so much. Yeah, I'll try to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, we're the guinea pig generation when it comes to this. Oh my gosh, it's funny. 239 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:13,000 Talking about differences, I want to chat about when you when you had Mickey and your transition to becoming a mother, compared to when you had Eloise. 240 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:22,000 How, how did you go with your own identity, I guess and the adjustments in changing from Jen to somebody's mother. 241 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:33,000 Yeah, that's great. That's a great question. Um, when I had Mickey, it was you know it's 31. 242 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:39,000 And most of my friends hadn't yet had children. 243 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Being in the Washington DC area at that time people have children, very late. 244 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:56,000 So, I think I knew one couple who had a baby. And so kind of being like you said the guinea pigs. 245 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:02,000 At the time, and kind of having to figure this all out. 246 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:14,000 My parents were relatively close by about 45 minutes away at that time and my mom was one of Mickey's primary caregivers. While I was at work she came three days a week. 247 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:22,000 And he had sitters the other two days, or with my husband, and being able to have my mom there. 248 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:38,000 Being supportive and being really my role model of being a parent because I didn't have well because she's awesome but also because I didn't have any real peers to look at as role models. 249 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:44,000 And just kind of trying to figure it all out at that time. 250 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:53,000 Between when we had Mickey in the Washington DC area, and having Eloise here. 251 00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:03,000 You know we lived, we've kind of slowly gone halfway across the country we made a stop in Michigan which is the little mitten shaped. 252 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:15,000 Up by Canada. And so we made a stop there for two years, and then moved here. And within that 10 years in between Eloise and Mickey. 253 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,000 You know now that I'm in my 40s my husband's in his 40s now. 254 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:31,000 Most of our friends are finished having babies. Yeah. And so, you know, we don't feel like we're starting from scratch we don't feel like we're starting. 255 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:43,000 Not knowing anything and in fact, our friends are very thankful that we're helping them clean out their basements and garages and giving us all the things. 256 00:41:43,000 --> 00:42:02,000 But it feels. Even with all the changes you know there there are apps for everything now and, you know, having online communities now that didn't exist back in 2011. 257 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:13,000 Feels less like we're reinventing ourselves and more like yeah this is just how this is. 258 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,000 Yeah, that makes sense. 259 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,000 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I could kind of relate to that and the way you've heard that that kind of makes sense. 260 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,000 Yeah, because it's new, but it's not new in a way, you know, it's, yeah, it's familiar at the same time. 261 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:40,000 Did you have children. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, Mickey was sleeping in his own room at two months and sleeping through the night at four months. 262 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:48,000 Eloise moved out of our room at six months, and still isn't sleeping through the night. Yeah. 263 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:58,000 And never got the crib transfer and so we're using a floor bed with her instead of a crib and things like that. There are definitely new things to learn but it's not a complete reinvent. 264 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:09,000 Yeah, see that's interesting isn't it like my two are completely different, same sort of thing like, I know what you said then just, yeah, sounds very similar. 265 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:25,000 And it's like, you're getting to know the child, like you sort of you know the ups you know the, the physical, the caring role the routine, but it's getting to know this little person and that's something I found really actually quite exciting about having another child. 266 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:39,000 I love to putting it off for so long was that it's like, oh, I get to meet a new person and find out what they're like and what they like and what they don't like and all this sort of stuff. It was actually something I hadn't really thought of when I'm, when I, you know, the 267 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,000 overwhelm of having your first child. 268 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:52,000 It's just like, and you stop to think, yeah, when and being older to, did you find that like have physically being older yourself being older like I had digs. 269 00:43:52,000 --> 00:44:00,000 I was 29 I reckon I had him a few months before I turned 30 and digs. What's that seven years after that. 270 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:12,000 I just felt like so much more content in myself as a person, you know, especially moving quite close to 40s when I think that's the time when you literally decide you don't give a shit about anything. 271 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:32,000 Absolutely and feeling so much like, like I don't have to prove anything to anybody that I was when I was pregnant with Mickey, I was, I was the education program manager of a regional children's theater, and I was teaching theater classes, five days a week, 272 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:47,000 and I would still, you know, eight months pregnant squat down on the floor and things like this is what I do for my job and I'm with Eloise, I was at like six months I was like I can't walk up the hill to the playground anymore. 273 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,000 Get me a chair. 274 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,000 What else is going to happen that sorry. 275 00:44:53,000 --> 00:45:02,000 Yeah, just like, I'm going to ask for what I need and people are going to understand and that's going to be okay. Yeah, yes, that's okay. 276 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,000 Now go and you go. 277 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:09,000 Yeah, I think like a big thing for me though is that I wish. 278 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:27,000 I think this is this is always the case with people who have second children, third children, fourth children, whatever, I'm not going there. 279 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:41,000 I'm not going to be the living part, but I wish that, you know, in between the time that I had Mickey and the time that I had Eloise, my understanding of early childhood education fine motor skills gross motor skills. 280 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,000 The arts. 281 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,000 How to provide experiences to children. 282 00:45:47,000 --> 00:46:02,000 And the physical location that we're in has changed so much that like now, you know we go on nature walks, and there wasn't that in. 283 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:19,000 That I knew of in Washington DC, or, you know, we, you know, have these, you know, tactile experiences and toys that, you know, are more open ended and things like that. 284 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:29,000 You know I know how to create things for Eloise that I know how to create for Mickey. And so I wish that he had been able to have those experiences as well. 285 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:50,000 Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that too. 286 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:58,000 You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was a human. 287 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:04,000 Do you, I guess, this mom guilt thing it's a big one that I like to talk about. 288 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,000 What's your thoughts about that whole thing. 289 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Oh it absolutely exists, at least for me, I can't speak for anybody else but so I'm Jewish. 290 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:21,000 And we have lots of guilt everywhere all the time. 291 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,000 generational trauma. 292 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:39,000 But I think it comes from so many different places that you just internalize it without meaning to. 293 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,000 I have my husband is incredibly supportive. 294 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:58,000 He's a wonderful dad, a wonderful partner, and I still feel bad telling him that I want to take a pottery class, because it's going to take me away from the family. 295 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:16,000 It is absolutely nothing that he has done or expressed or would do or express in fact when I tell him, hey, I really want to take this pottery class he goes, good. You should in that tone of voice. 296 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:23,000 But I feel guilty about taking that time away. 297 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:29,000 I was just talking about the positive influences of having online communities. 298 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:47,000 But there's absolutely negatives with that as well. It's, you know, I found some wonderful supportive communities but, you know, I still feel the need to say like, oh we watch such and such. 299 00:48:47,000 --> 00:49:01,000 We're not a no screen time family. Like I feel like we're not no screen time or, oh, Eloise had, oh she had a peanut M&M the other day. 300 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:10,000 And I watched her like a hawk. I mean like, yeah, it's like this caveat. Yeah. Yeah. 301 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:23,000 And so there are wonderful things about that online community and then just things that make you stop for a second, not that anyone is necessarily actually judging you. 302 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:40,000 Yeah. The assumption that someone will. Yeah, that culture that we've sort of become familiar with I suppose that that's what we should expect to happen when we share things like that. Yeah. 303 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:53,000 I found I've deliberately stopped following people that make me feel challenged like that. I feel like, oh, if such and such read this or somebody saw this, I'd feel uncomfortable. So I've really done. 304 00:49:53,000 --> 00:50:07,000 I do it every now and then. Just go through the list and go, no, actually not feeling it. And try to try to have on my feed people that I don't know, are very similar to me in their values, I guess. 305 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:13,000 It's a good way to put it. Yeah. We just started with a new sitter. 306 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:25,000 And she has a reggio Emilia background. I have a reggio Emilia background. And, you know, that can go a couple of different ways. 307 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:42,000 You could be super crunchy, you know, all the super crunchy things. Or you could potentially be, I call myself crunchy but realistic. Yeah. I exist in this world and this is where I am. 308 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:56,000 So we were interviewing, I would say, oh, you know, we're not no screen time. And she goes, you watch Bluey? Oh yeah, we watch Bluey. Oh, love Bluey. Oh, love. 309 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:15,000 Bluey is not as into it yet as I am. But oh, it's the best. These parents. Yes. I'll tell you, last night we were watching, we had Bluey on and everyone else left the room but me. And I just sat there and watched it. I watched it for about two hours by myself laughing my head off. 310 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:23,000 Can I ask though, do you guys get the humor, the Australian humor, like that, because Bandit can be quite colloquial. 311 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:36,000 I don't think we get all of it. But I think like what goes over our heads, just like we don't know. You don't know that you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to be a chilly healer when I grow up. 312 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,000 You know. She's awesome. Good old chilly. 313 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:54,000 I love the stickers in her car and like it's just feels very real. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that her car is so messy. The messy car is what I can relate to. And there was a joke in one of the episodes where her sister comes to visit and the kids have never met the sister. 314 00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:10,000 And somebody, I think it was Bingo, had a onesie on that turned her into a cheater or something. Anyway, they were hiding in the car. That's where I'm going with this. And chilly said, that's okay. We won't die because there's food under the seats. 315 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:19,000 And I was like, yes, you can see it in my car. Like, I feel really validated right now. Not judged. 316 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:27,000 Absolutely. Oh, dear. Yeah. Sorry. I hijacked. You were talking about Bluey and then you were going to say something else and I just jumped in. Sorry. 317 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:39,000 And I have to tell you that this is the way that parents in America also respond when I say Bluey. Everyone always goes do do do do do do do do. And like everybody does it. 318 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:53,000 Yeah. Yeah. This woman. I say, yeah, she goes, you watch Miss Rachel. I'm like, yeah, we watch Bluey and Miss Rachel and Sesame Street. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 319 00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:12,000 And then there was something else. We're talking about food and how we both have the same. We have the same kind of outlook on food for our kids where we like, you know, we try to be nutritious, but also where everything in moderation. 320 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:27,000 People set the kids up for positive associations with food and positive relationships with their bodies. And so it just made me feel real good that like, here's this person with this background in early childhood education and the arts. 321 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:36,000 And we have the same kind of outlook on on things and that she's not going to make me feel like I should have cloth diapers. You know? 322 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:50,000 Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And when like when you go, she does all this different stuff. It's like, oh, I'll do this while she's not here. And when she gets back, it'll be like, you know, yeah. And I don't know, like, I've been looking after kids for a long time in my job. 323 00:53:50,000 --> 00:54:14,000 And I don't know, I feel like most people are, I don't know what the word is, they are the screen time parents, they are the snack parents. Most people like that. Like that's what we are. But then the voices in the not that section are really loud and then they make us feel bad about our choices or what we do with our kids. 324 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:26,000 So I don't know how you block out the noise, but yeah, it's a hard one. It is a tough one. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that about that. I find it really interesting. 325 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:43,000 I shouldn't say I feel it. It's interesting talking to people about their guilt. I sound like I'm like some sort of creeper. But I just find it fascinating how, you know, people's, their cultural background, the location, their upbringing and everything that goes into creating a person. 326 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:51,000 How that affects how your parent and I just find it so fascinating. So yeah, thanks for indulging me there. 327 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:39,000 Do you find that for you to create, to continue to create and not just in, you know, your profession, but also the things you do at home, like you're talking about all the things you like to do. Do you feel like that's really important for you to maintain for you, for yourself? 328 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:53,000 Yeah, I think a big thing for me, I'm a person with anxiety and depression. And I think, and I know that that's something that comes up a lot in these conversations. Yeah, it's very common. Yeah. 329 00:55:53,000 --> 00:56:11,000 I, when I found pottery, you know, I'm a perfectionist. That's part of how my anxiety manifests in perfectionism and then procrastination. Because if things can't be perfect, then why do them? 330 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:30,000 When I found pottery, you can't be perfect with it, especially when you're first starting out. And if you make something that's awful, and you fire it, then your mom will want it. And that's great. 331 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:42,000 And your mom always, my mom, I don't know about other people, but my mom always makes me feel good about stuff. So she's got a couple of really terrible things that I've made. 332 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:49,000 My dad also, my dad is also very excellent. They share the bathroom, but I give them to my mom. 333 00:56:49,000 --> 00:57:03,000 And if something flops on the wheel, or it doesn't work out when you're hand building it, you squish it, and you let it dry out a little bit, so it's not completely full of water. 334 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:20,000 And then you do something else, and you try again. And just knowing that it's not going to be perfect, it can't be perfect. And that is okay. And then you can squish it. 335 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:36,000 It was just so, like my very first class, it was so just affirming. And now I can make things that you can use, and I made this mug that I'm drinking out of. 336 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,000 It's gorgeous. Is that blue? Is it blue and brown? 337 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,000 It's like a Tiffany blue. 338 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,000 Yeah, it's gorgeous. 339 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:56,000 And then brown and I, you know, and I thank you. And I keep learning things and you can hold it and put something in it that will nourish your body. 340 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:03,000 And, you know, I keep learning new techniques and I learned how to facet. 341 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:18,000 I found that I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. I want to make everything. And right now I'm taking a class about surface decoration and I'm learning how to scratch away colors and how to do lino prints and things like that and clay. 342 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:28,000 And it's, it's just fun. And if it doesn't work out, the stakes are so low. 343 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,000 Yeah. 344 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:34,000 But if you make something beautiful or something useful. 345 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:51,000 Those stakes are super high and like you've you've done this thing that can help nourish your body or your, your home. I find that the things that I like to do. I was thinking about this today. 346 00:58:51,000 --> 00:59:05,000 The things that I like to do theater, pottery, quilting, baking, require other people's active participation. 347 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:22,000 And so it's this nurturing instinct. These are things that sometimes maybe I do them by myself, but the people, the other people involved aren't passive participants. 348 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:36,000 And so I find that, you know, maybe I read somewhere someone said, you know, people think I like embroidery because it's soothing and meditative but really I just get to stab something over and over again. 349 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,000 And I felt that very deeply in my soul. 350 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000 I've never thought of it that way. 351 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:55,000 Me either until I read that and I was like, yes, that is exactly. Yes. And when I make my quilts, it's I completely hand piece and hand quilt. 352 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,000 I can't be bothered to load a Bob and I don't know how to do it. It's fine. 353 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,000 It's more trouble than it's worth. 354 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:14,000 You know, I really feel that. Yeah, I am looking at my sewing machine right now. I don't use it right there. I'm not even sewing by hand. 355 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:39,000 But I can take it with me to a waiting room and do that there. But then when I finished a quilt, you know, you can you can snuggle or you can say, where's Eloise, or you can, you know, take it to a picnic and sit. 356 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:50,000 And so there are these. And then with baking you eat it. That's better than having to bake. My husband does baking most of the time. 357 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:55,000 But I, making a cake, man, that's the best. 358 01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:11,000 Oh, yes. My, my little one. He loves making cakes because he gets to lick the beaters. And that is, oh yeah, that's it. He doesn't eat it afterwards. So we make these cakes and they're sitting there like, oh, better eat this cake as I can't let it go to waste. 359 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,000 You know, damn. Yeah. 360 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:26,000 But yeah, it's and then we may. Yeah. And if we make something else with the batter is not that consistency. He's not interested in helping me at all. Like, it's like he just has to lick the beaters. And it's like this ritual. 361 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:39,000 I remember as a kid, like getting to lick the beaters when, when we'd, Mum had finished her cooking and, you know, I probably always wanted the one with the most on it. So, you know, I always make sure I give him the one that he wants. 362 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:53,000 I think the one that whatever I get, you know, I don't know. It's just creating those, the traditions, I suppose that, you know, to teach him how to do it properly too. Cause you don't, you got to not waste any of it. So, you know. 363 01:01:53,000 --> 01:02:06,000 So Mickey knows when I'm baking, if he's not involved and I go, Hey, Mickey, I have a really important job. He knows that means he gets to lick the beaters. Like that's the, he knows what his important job is. 364 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:23,000 I love that. Cause that's the thing when your kids get older, like things that they were quite happy to do when they're starting to be on a teenager, it's like, Oh, I'm actually not interested in that anymore. But that's a lovely way that he'll probably always continue to be involved. Cause who can say no to licking the beaters? 365 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,000 Right? Right? 366 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:54,000 That's so lovely. That's really nice. I love that. 367 01:02:54,000 --> 01:03:21,000 So with that, I mean, this next question probably won't apply so much to Eloise at this stage of her life, but with Mickey, do you find it important that he sees you as someone who's not just there? And I say just, I shouldn't say just not there only to be in a mothering role for his benefit or for the household's benefit, but you're also your own person and you do things that don't involve anybody else sometimes. 368 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:41,000 Absolutely. I think my mom is the most incredible role model in a lot of ways. But one of those is that she, you know, she was a stay at home mom. And then when I was 10 years old, she went to college. She hadn't gone to college. 369 01:03:41,000 --> 01:04:03,000 So this wasn't going back to school. This was her first go. And so seeing that she was going and getting a degree and doing that set that as a role model for me. I mean, also partly that like, I would be struggling with my homework at the same time that she was struggling with her homework. 370 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:20,000 And so that was a really great. It wasn't great that she was struggling. It was a great thing, a great thing to see that she was, you know, making these efforts to do something that she really wanted to do. 371 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:42,000 And so that was sort of my role model in that way that, you know, you can be a mom, which is really awesome and also be your own person. And I always kind of struggle a little bit when I'm writing like the Instagram tagline or an artist statement. 372 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:56,000 What do I put first? And if I don't put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? But if I do put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? 373 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,000 Yeah, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. 374 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:16,000 Yeah. Do I want to be in an outward facing way? 375 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:35,000 Can I get a little bit political? Of course you can. Absolutely. I'd welcome that. Yes. 376 01:05:35,000 --> 01:06:01,000 So Missouri has been making some laws that are against what my family and I personally believe about the right for every human being to be a human being. And there was a trans rights rally in the state capitol, which is just about a half hour away from where we live. 377 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:15,000 And it happened to be a day that neither Mickey nor I had school. And I asked him, I was like, hey, but do you want to, neither of us have school. Do you want to go to the trans rights rally? And he was like, yes, absolutely. 378 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:34,000 Oh, good on him. And Eloise came too, but didn't have a choice. So, you know, but it's, you know, important. I think, you know, he can be whoever he is, whoever he wants to be. 379 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:50,000 But I think it's important that he knows, you know, that we are all political beings and that we make choices in this world to speak up for ourselves and to speak up for other people. 380 01:06:50,000 --> 01:07:08,000 So, you know, talk about like life is politics. You can't leave politics out of a conversation. I actually just commented that on a parenting message board where they were like, oh, shouldn't, you know, can't we just have one space where we can keep politics out of it? 381 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:20,000 I don't understand why. I just, life is politics. My body is political. My parenting is political. My teaching is political. Like life is politics. 382 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:28,000 Yeah, literally. It's all, it all overlaps. Like we can't be who we are. We couldn't be who we are if it wasn't for the political environment that we're in. 383 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:39,000 So absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. My parents were protesters in the 60s. So I found my dad's conscientious objector card from the Vietnam War. 384 01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,000 Beautiful. Yes. 385 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,000 Which is pretty rad. 386 01:07:45,000 --> 01:08:00,000 But, but yeah, I think that for, for kids to know that their parents are caregivers and also that it's important for them to take care of themselves. 387 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,000 Never thought about it that way until it just came out of my mouth. That's what it is. 388 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:15,000 It's amazing in a nutshell, literally, isn't it? Like that's it. Because if you don't look after yourself, you don't care for yourself, you can't look after anybody else. 389 01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:21,000 And going back to what you're saying about involving your son in the politics, I think it's really important to do that. 390 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:33,000 And I was having this conversation with someone, I can't remember, a while ago maybe, about the way the generation's, certainly in Australia, I'm not, you know, obviously familiar with, with how it's been going over there. 391 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:42,000 My parents and my grandparents would never tell me who they voted for. Like they wouldn't, we have the, we have the two parties here, the main parties, you've got the Liberal and Labour. 392 01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:54,000 And Liberal is meant to be Liberal, but it's not the right word to describe that party because they're not, they're not modern, they're not progressive, they're not for the people, they're sort of the opposite. 393 01:08:54,000 --> 01:09:05,000 They're the right wingers. And the left wing is the Labour Party, which is, you know, for the working man and for the arts and for all the good things that I believe in. 394 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:20,000 Yes. And yeah, so yeah, I didn't find out who my family voted for for a very long time. And there's also this culture over here, and I guess it's the same everywhere, that you sort of, you don't necessarily vote for who your parents voted for, because they voted for that. 395 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:26,000 But you're brought up in that particular way that it's more likely you're going to vote that way, I guess. 396 01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:34,000 It'd be pretty radical if you sort of went off the other way, I guess. So yeah, I sort of worked it out just by accident as I got older. 397 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:42,000 And I remember asking my Nana once, like, because it was voting day and they went off and voted. And I said, who do you vote for? She goes, oh, no, you don't ask people that. You can't, you can't ask people that. 398 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:52,000 And I'm really glad now that the politics is such an open conversation, because, you know, my son's almost 16. We voted 18 over here. 399 01:09:52,000 --> 01:10:00,000 And it's, I don't want him walking into a polling booth one day just going, oh, OK, so what's this all about? What do I do here? 400 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:09,000 You know, like, I want him to grow up understanding the culture that we live in and how the politics obviously, as we said before, it's a fundamental part of our lives. 401 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:18,000 And we often joke, you know, my husband has been a Liberal voter for a long time and I've been a Labor voter forever. 402 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:32,000 And we chat to my son about the differences and why, you know, a political in a certain circumstance or over a particular issue, why I feel the way I do and why the way dad feels the way he does, you know. 403 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:49,000 So I'm not telling him he has to vote for either or whatever. I simply want him to have an understanding of how these parties and what they believe in will affect him as a person and the decisions that he'll make in his life moving forward and in his children's life if he has them. 404 01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:57,000 So, yeah, I'm I'm all for it. I think it's wonderful to get kids involved as early as you can, as early as is appropriate or as you believe. 405 01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:05,000 And I think it's also for your child and your family, because like you said, it's it's all intertwined. You can't have one without the other. 406 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:13,000 My husband is actually a professor of political science. That's what brought us to Missouri. Awesome. 407 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:31,000 And his father is also a professor of political science. Yeah. And so like he knows who his father and whose parents had voted for because, you know, he was out on campaign trails and, you know, doing research and things like that. 408 01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:46,000 With Do you know the American sitcom from the 80s? Family Ties? Oh, yes, very much. Yes. Yes. Yes. So with Alex P Keaton, who was a Reagan Republican, while his parents were hippies. 409 01:11:46,000 --> 01:12:02,000 And so I think about that pretty frequently that like, you know, you can be anything you want to be, but like, don't don't do that. It's been over the last several very scary years. 410 01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:17,000 Yes. With, you know, people are changing from what, you know, they had traditionally been voting either for better or for worse. 411 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:32,000 And people have started having these conversations more and more frequently as, you know, you become empowered to tell, you know, especially older relatives like, hey, it's not okay that you talk that way. 412 01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:37,000 Yes, we had a member of our family come out as transgender. 413 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:52,000 And, you know, a couple, was it just last year? I think it was just last year. And, you know, having to, you know, teach their 90 something year old grandmother. 414 01:12:52,000 --> 01:13:12,000 You know, the other relatives who are of our parents generation, you know, what that means and that they are still the same person. They just, you know, have a name and a, you know, and other stuff that fits them better now. 415 01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:22,000 And, you know, we, plus this current generation that like, we, we told Mickey, we're like, hey, here's, here's what's going on with this member of our family. 416 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,000 Do you have any questions? And he's like, no. 417 01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:30,000 And we like randomly ran into this family member. 418 01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:44,000 We knew that we were going to the same place on a family vacation, but we didn't know we look around into them on the beach. Yeah, and we hung out with them for a while and then they went their way and we went our way. 419 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:49,000 And we looked at Mickey we're like so see same same exact person. 420 01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:54,000 He looks at me he goes, I know. 421 01:13:54,000 --> 01:14:04,000 Yeah, no, like, no, like nerves or anything. It's like, yes. No. Yeah. Yeah, it's wonderful. Isn't it. 422 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:10,000 We are, you know, of minority religion. 423 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:15,000 But we don't wear our minority on the outside. 424 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:19,000 I am also of a minority gender, I am a woman. 425 01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:29,000 But, you know, for all intents and purposes, at least as far as we know now, Mickey is cisgender straight white male. 426 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:41,000 And we have spoken pretty frequently about, you know that, you know, he's got a responsibility to speak up for people who don't have those appearances. 427 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,000 Yeah, yeah. 428 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:49,000 And, you know, I'm sorry that we've had to have those conversations. 429 01:14:49,000 --> 01:15:11,000 My husband, but I'm glad that we have had them. My husband is not Jewish. And when, you know conversations about, you know, there was a right wing awful protests where they were chanting the Jews will not replace us. 430 01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:18,000 And things like that. And he was like, well, you know, conversations about the Holocaust and things like that. 431 01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,000 He's like, well, isn't Mickey too young to hear about these things? 432 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,000 And I'm like, I don't ever remember not knowing. Yeah. 433 01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:29,000 Like, I don't remember a time in my life when I didn't know what the Holocaust was. 434 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 435 01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:44,000 It wasn't like this moment where you remember getting sat down and told it was like part of your culture, part of your, it was there. A very visible part of, of, yeah, knowing. Yeah. 436 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:57,000 Yeah, yeah. It's an important part of being a human being. And, you know, when people talk about bringing it back to the arts, you know, when people talk about the arts, well can't they just not be political. 437 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:04,000 Why do actors have to talk about politics? Why do the arts are political? The arts have always been political. 438 01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:15,000 When we read Richard the third, we have to remember that, you know, Shakespeare's patron was Queen Elizabeth the first. 439 01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:23,000 And her, now I'm going to get the lineage wrong. It was either her grandfather or her father. No, it wasn't her father. It was her grandfather. 440 01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:33,000 Her father was Henry the eighth. It was her grandfather, who is the hero who slays Richard at the end of the play. Richard the third is political propaganda. 441 01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 442 01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:42,000 Theatre is always political. Art is always political. Period. Yeah. 443 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:54,000 We actually had this big thing happen in Australia recently, or not recently now, a few, few months ago. Was it last year? I can't remember now. Time's just a construct really. 444 01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:01,000 As we were saying before. But yeah, there was this lady. She's the richest person in Australia. 445 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:09,000 I'm not going to honour her by saying her name because I don't believe in her beliefs and her thoughts and her things. So, 446 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:14,000 she won't be listening, so it doesn't matter. But Australians will know who I'm talking about. 447 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,000 She has a lot of minds that she inherited from her father. 448 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:24,000 And anyway, she was sponsoring one of the netball teams. 449 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:31,000 And one of the netball players is an Indigenous Australian First Nations person. 450 01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:40,000 And she made a comment that she wasn't really impressed by the comments that this rich person's father had said about Aboriginal people. 451 01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:46,000 He'd said it back in the 80s. And it wasn't appropriate then, but never obviously got called out then. 452 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:58,000 But so this woman's sort of response to that was to take all the money away from them, took all of their funding away so they didn't have a sponsor. 453 01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:05,000 And most women in Australia that play professional sport, they have a day job because they can't get sponsorship. 454 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:11,000 So they're not full-time professional athletes, unlike the men who get a lot of money. 455 01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:21,000 Anyway, this rich person made the comment that sport and politics should never mix. 456 01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:31,000 And it just reminded me when you said about the arts, it's like, particularly in a country like Australia where sport is like a religion, it is like a way of life for people. 457 01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:38,000 And politics overlaps everything, like we've said. It just reminded me of that. And I thought, I'll mention it. 458 01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:43,000 I don't know why it's taken me so long to get it out. But that was my point. 459 01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:55,000 Yes, absolutely. No, I totally and I have all of these thoughts spinning in my head about like, it's the same thing has happened in America. 460 01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:01,000 We play the national anthem before all of our sporting events, which, yeah, let's take politics out of it. 461 01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:06,000 Why do we play the national anthem before all of our sporting events? Yeah, whatever. Yeah. 462 01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:14,000 But then a few years ago, people started kneeling during the national anthem. 463 01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:27,000 They don't really stand for what the national anthem stands for and got kicked off of teams and their sponsors taken away and things like that. 464 01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:39,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. That really annoyed me. That did that whole the taking the knee, like, honestly, it's a wonderful thing to do. 465 01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:48,000 And then it just got turned into this, I don't know, white persons again, taking over and saying what everybody can do or can't do. 466 01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:55,000 It's like back to the colonial days. Sorry, that's not a very nice thing to say. But that's what it reminded me of. 467 01:19:55,000 --> 01:20:01,000 You are absolutely I 100% agree with you. Yes. Yeah, it's horrible. 468 01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:07,000 Well, thank you. No, thanks for talking about that stuff. I like a good chat about politics. 469 01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:20,000 And I do. Yeah, it's and it's I do like to hear about other countries, how they're going with stuff too, because I mean, I, I consume a lot of media, particularly independent media, but there's nothing like hearing it. 470 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:33,000 Not from the horse's mouth. I'm sorry. You know what I mean? Getting a person's perspective, living it right now. Yeah. But Jesus, some stuff going on over there. 471 01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:42,000 I watch what's happening in America and Jesus, I feel sorry for you guys. I just think, oh, can you imagine do you think one day it will actually become two countries? 472 01:20:42,000 --> 01:21:00,000 Like, is it that bad that people just have to not be near each other? And that's a really simplistic thing to say. But yeah, it's wild because like where I live would absolutely be the part of the country that I don't agree with. 473 01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:18,000 Because that's, yeah, that's who I am. And it's so interesting because the two major cities, St. Louis and Kansas City, St. Louis, in particular, is so much more liberal, liberal, like actual liberal. 474 01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:31,000 Than the rest of Missouri. But just the way that political lines are drawn. That's the thing. Our political lines are drawn just horribly. Yeah, right. 475 01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:54,000 And you know, there's, you know, Missouri is one of nine states in the country that has a compulsory Holocaust education. Right. Which is wild to me. Like, it's amazing. Yeah. But that's 100% because of lobbyists in St. Louis. Yeah, okay. 476 01:21:54,000 --> 01:22:12,000 And, you know, where I live right now in Columbia is this like, so the left is blue and the right is red. So we're in this tiny little blue dot in the sea of red. Yeah, right. 477 01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:32,000 And apparently, you know, for a major part because the university is here. But yeah, it's wild. Like it is. Yeah. It's, and like I don't, you know, people say like, well, if you don't like it, go someplace else. 478 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:45,000 So well, you know, but then I couldn't make change happen. Not that I one person I'm going to make change happen. I know what you mean though. It's like you're abandoning the opportunity to be involved in challenging what they're happening. What's happening here, I guess. 479 01:22:45,000 --> 01:23:00,000 Yeah. But at the same time, like I know families with transgender children who are leaving the state because they have. Oh, you'd fear, you'd fear for your safety. Like, from what I've seen over here. Yeah, if that's accurate. Yeah, it's pretty appalling. 480 01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:04,000 It's really, it's really appalling. Reproductive rates as well. It's. Oh, yes. 481 01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:21,000 Oh man. All the things. Yeah. Yeah, jeepers. And it's funny though. I would say, oh, this is a reasonable guess. Almost 100% of people I've talked to on this show. I don't know if it's an arts thing, but they're always left leaning voters. 482 01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:39,000 If it's a thing about compassion and, you know, listening to people emotion sharing, supporting each other. It's always the arts people. It's just an inherent thing. Yeah. Well, it's interesting reading or I was wearing. 483 01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:55,000 I have a shirt that says I'm with the band, but it's B-A-N-N-E-D. I love that. Band books. I wore it to work the other day and one of the fifth graders said to me, you know, is that about band books? And I said, yeah. 484 01:23:55,000 --> 01:24:05,000 And she said, why do people ban books? And I said, because they don't want to ask questions about things. They just want to get rid of things that they don't understand. 485 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:33,000 And then she gave me a big high five. But I think that that brings it all back to the power of positivity and asking questions. And I think that artists are in a specifically a uniquely appropriate place to be able to ask those questions and try to understand things that aren't necessarily part of their world. 486 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:59,000 We talk about in education, we talk about providing children with windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors in our libraries. So the books that we have on our shelves should give a mirror so that they see themselves windows so that they can see other people's experiences and sliding glass doors so they can walk through and experience themselves with empathy. 487 01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:10,000 And I think that that is something that left leaning people are more willing to do than right leaning people are. 488 01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:37,000 Yeah, yeah, that was very well said. I love that. 489 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:52,000 I actually have we have a family from Australia in our school. Yeah, and students because we have an emerging curriculum. We get to just answer the questions that the kiddos are interested in exploring. Yeah, give them education. 490 01:25:52,000 --> 01:26:09,000 And we were talking about, try to remember what exactly we were talking about. Oh, we were talking about if cultures all over the world celebrate things in December in exactly the same ways. 491 01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:22,000 Yeah, and so they understand their celebrate, you know, we don't celebrate holidays at work, but obviously like most of the kiddos in our school celebrate Christmas. So we talked about Christmas a lot. Yeah. 492 01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:33,000 And so they're like, well, Christmas is snowmen and reindeer. And so we talked about how reindeer are from Lapland and where Lapland is. 493 01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:44,000 And then I asked Karen, who's the mom from Australia, I was like, Can you come in and talk to my class? 494 01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:55,000 How you celebrate Christmas in Australia? Yeah, absolutely. So she brought like Christmas crackers and stuff and it was super fun. They were all like, wait, there's no snow. 495 01:26:55,000 --> 01:27:05,000 And he's like, no, it's summer. It's super hot. We're sweltering. But we wish there was snow. Yeah, it's fascinating. 496 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:34,000 Fantastic conversation. 497 01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:43,000 So one of your questions that you had on your website was me to find new ways to work so you could continue creating. Yes. Yes. 498 01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:52,000 I thought that was super interesting because I actually didn't start doing any of this until I had kids. Yeah, right. 499 01:27:52,000 --> 01:28:16,000 So I was a theater, so I was doing all the theater stuff, which has definitely changed since I had kids. Yeah. But I didn't discover the visual stuff until when I was teaching in the theater and realized, 500 01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:27,000 Oh, if I was going to teach theater to kindergartners and first graders, I was going to need to learn how to teach visual arts. Yeah, because I was going to have to have them sit down and draw things. 501 01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:38,000 And I was going to have to, you know, have them create things. And so it wasn't until I was in my late 20s that I started doing those things. 502 01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:53,000 And that was completely inspired by my students I was teaching. And just having discovered I didn't pick up a ukulele until I was pregnant with Mickey because I wanted to have an instrument that I could play for and with my child. 503 01:28:53,000 --> 01:29:17,000 Yeah. And so, you know, baking came about after I had Mickey really because I wanted that sensory thing to do with him. And all of these things have come about relatively recently quilting in December 2020 because I wanted something that I could do during the 504 01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:32,000 pandemic. Yeah, at my house. And so I knew myself as a theater creative, but I didn't know myself with these other things until I was already a mom. 505 01:29:32,000 --> 01:30:00,000 Oh, hey, that's really cool. Yeah. 506 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:12,000 It's been so lovely chatting with you Jen. I've really really enjoyed it. It's been great. And yeah, again, thank you for indulging me in the political side of things because that is one of my favorite things to talk about. 507 01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:22,000 But it's been fascinating and learning all about the dramaturgy which I didn't even know was a thing. And I just yeah it's it thank you for sharing so much I really appreciate it. 508 01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:28,000 Absolutely. Thank you for having grown up conversations with me they can be few and far between. 509 01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:35,000 I'm happy to indulge anytime you need one just let me know. 510 01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:48,000 Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. 511 01:30:48,000 --> 01:31:00,000 The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. 512 01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:05,000 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. 513 01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:12,000 If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. 514 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:18,000 I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. 515 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,000 Yeah. 516 01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:13,000 Yeah. 517 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,000 Yeah. 518 01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,000 Yeah. 519 01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:43,000 Yeah. 520 01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:13,000 Yeah. 521 01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:43,000 Yeah.

Beck Feiner Australian illustrator S3 Ep78 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Welcome to the new season, season 3! It's so great to have you here, from wherever you are in the world My guest to start the year is Beck Feiner, Beck is an Aussie illustrator and designer based in Sydney, and a mum of 2. When Beck was growing up she was an avid drawer, keenly supported by her mum. Like many artists and creative people, when it came time to decide what career to pursue, Beck didn't think that being a working artist was possible, and turned to study design and became a graphic designer. After being inspired to create her own alphabet poster when her first child was young 8 years ago, she created her Aussie Legends Alphabet poster , this was subsequently turned into a book and from this she signed a publishing deal. Beck co-creates books with her husband Robin. With Beck illustrating and Robin writing. they have created 6 books together, Beck describes her style as vector-based conceptual illustrative art, embodying bold colours and punchy graphics. Beck uses her art to provide commentary on current social and political issues.. She is passionate about breaking down stereotypes and including children in the breaking down of cultural norms and encouraging kids to become more involved in political and leadership issues at a young age. Connect with Beck - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, then we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone take people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to season three. It's great to have you here from wherever you are in the world. I hope you are able to have a restful and loving holiday season. Whatever you celebrate, what do I celebrate? My guest to start the year is BEC finer. Beck is in Australian illustrator and designer based in Sydney, and she's a mother of two that speck was growing up. She was an avid drawer. Like many artists and creatives, when it came time to decide what career to pursue. Beck didn't think that being a working artist was possible and turned to study design and instead became a graphic designer after being inspired to create her own alphabet poster when her first child was young. Eight years ago, she created her Ozzie Legend's alphabet poster. This was subsequently turned into a book and from there she signed a publishing deal that CO creates books with her husband Robin, with Beck illustrating and Robin writing, and they have done six books together. Beck describes her style as vector based conceptual illustrative art, embodying bold colors, sharp lines, and back uses her art to provide commentary on current social and political issues. She's passionate about breaking down stereotypes, and including children in the breaking down of cultural norms, and encouraging kids to become more involved in political and leadership issues at a young age. Thank you for being here. And I hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome to the podcast Beck it's absolute pleasure to welcome you and to have you today. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's a pleasure. So you're and Ozzy is lovely to hear a fellow Australian accent I've been talking to a lot of people from overseas. Really? Nice. We're about to you based in Sydney, right in the middle of Sydney. Oh, I always have to live in the hustle and bustle of everything everywhere. I mean, I've lived in London and few other places but I like to be in the grip of things. holding me gritty. I know it's very pretty but you know where the action is where exactly Yeah, that's exactly the opposite to me into CDs that Oh, really? It's so funny. I love to have a break but I can't have a Yeah, I'm either gonna be right in the action or like somewhere quite removed from it, you know, one or the other? I think because I grew up in the burbs the burbs kind of kills me a little bit No offense to anyone living in the burbs, but just for me, it was slightly boring. Oh, that's funny. Oh, good on Yes. So you're an illustrator. And how did you first get into drawing? Have you always been a draw as you grew up? Yeah, it was one of those things where, you know, right from when I was super young, I was just constantly drawing drawing drawing, illustrating, my parents had to ban me from I used to draw on the walls. I remember drawing on all the photographs and being utterly dismayed when I got into trouble. I remember thinking I just made it all better. And yeah, and it was interesting though, and I often reflect upon this as though as I got older, I still did loads of art, but I kind of got a bit. And I think this happens with a lot of people, you get a bit shy about your work, I remember signing to hide my drawings and just being a bit self conscious about it. And I always knew I wanted to be creative and in the arts and my parents really let me do that. But I stepped away from illustration, because I thought, being a traditional artist or an illustrator wasn't a job. Yeah. Yeah. So I did, I went to university and I did graphic design, because, you know, I thought, well, that's a can pay the bills kind of things. And I loved University, I did a Bachelor of design, I absolutely loved it. And I went into graphic design, which is, you know, a lot of my work is quite graphic and has a typographic influence on it. So I went into that. And, but when I got into being an actual graphic designer, I found it. I mean, I was working at a great agency, you know, one of the top agencies, but I just found it a bit. Like, I liked it, but I knew it wasn't me. I was always very conceptual. So I actually stepped into and then I went into art direction and advertising for a long time. Yeah. You know, ads, and, and again, I loved it. And I love the creative side, but I just knew something was missing. So it was actually it took to having my first child. And going freelance, because advertising doesn't sometimes know where to put. This was, it was about 10 years ago, but it's so funny. It's come a long way since then, but I had no idea what to do with. And I think I was one of the only women in the creative department. I had a baby. And I kind of stopped being on the the top projects because I couldn't do the pictures overnight. Yeah. You know, all that kind of stuff. And so when I started freelancing, I just started thinking, There's got to be more to life. And I've always been illustrating, so it was kind of in the back of my mind. Yeah. So yeah. So was it like your needs weren't being met in terms of you expressing yourself? Is that sort of you were doing it for someone else in their ideas? Yeah, I started getting really disillusioned with advertising. I loved it at first, like I was, and then I suddenly it was like, I'd taken off the rose colored glasses, maybe childbirth does that to you? I don't know. And yeah, and I just, I started thinking I needed to work for myself, because I, when you have a kid, you almost like apologize for leaving to go to daycare to get them or them being sick. And I hated apologizing for that. And being almost embarrassed about having a kid and I was like, Why do I need to do that? And, and what happened was, I was actually teaching my son that the alphabet and I, this idea popped into my head. What a like, it was all such boring stuff. And I was like, I could make my own illustrative alphabet, you know, and why don't I merge? Legends of Australia, like, you know, all these incredible characters, diverse characters and put them on the heads of all these alphabets. And I opened an Instagram account that was actually I know, we all put people on social media, but it was actually the start of me kind of coming out as an illustrator. You know, like my, my little sneaky side that no one knew about. So I learned a launch this, this alphabet series. I did one a night, because it was you know, there's 26 letters in the alphabet. So I needed to give myself a goal, you know, with two by then I had another baby and I thought, I'm going to do one legend at night. So he was that a good day, it was for Bob Hawke, you know of morphing them, and I started releasing them on my Instagram account and getting this really amazing feed that. Yeah, that's awesome. Because we don't get a lot of like that Australian, sort of that route cloak you stuff. It's not Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's like the animals or the birds or I don't know, but that and that's something that I've really enjoyed looking on your account is the way that you do bring to the fore these these Australian icons, and you say diverse, which is awesome. Like, you've got, like, at the moment, I saw you had a post about Costa, the garden, Australia, man, and you've done the caffeine came in and dealing all caught like, yes, it's great. And I guess that's why it would have resonated with people because it was different and traditionally Australian, you know, I know and again, it was, I think about what happened. Okay, so it was about eight years ago when I released this poster series, and Australia has come and you know, I go to the bookstore now and I see so many multicultural books out there, especially for First Nation people, which it was so lacking before, it was only in the last. It's crazy to think that because now I think people are far more aware of it. But but even like 10 years ago, there wasn't a lot of stuff out there. So especially with Yeah, it was kind of when celebrating people's. It was just happening more for kids and that was my whole life. aim was to show kids that no matter where you come from your background, your ethnicity, religion, you know, abilities you can do, you can be anything you want to be. Yeah. And that kind of led to the book deal the publishing deal. So I made this poster. And that's kind of it was really funny I was. It all went a bit viral. And I remember kind of putting down my advertising pin. It's an advertising ban, but I just was like, I quit. And I didn't do any more freelance. I was like, I'm out. Yeah, yeah. And it's to and to have, like, your passion. And you're the thing you're excited about to be recognized and rewarded and saying, We, you know, someone else validating that. Yeah, be tremendous. You go right. This is it. This is what I've been sort of wanting, you know, that. express your creativity outlet. Yeah. And to all the parents out there, like, I thought that by the time I was quite when I got when I first got pregnant. And I was I mean, I was young, I was 30, which is young male by today's parenting. I just thought my life I hadn't reached my potential. And it was too late now that I was becoming a parent. I remember feeling like so sad about that. And I only really came into I found my purpose at about 35. And I think that's quite young doing now that I think of it. But at the time, I thought, if I didn't hit my stride when I was like, 25, then I hadn't made it successfully. And it was just such a nice feeling to know that you don't have to, like with maturity comes so many more insights into the world. They've allowed me to be to create this poster, my kids, you know, that was great. Yeah, no, that's good advice. I think, yeah, we can get a bit hung up when we're younger, looking at the future thinking, Oh, we've got to get this done. We've got to get this done. And I think that, that notion of when you have a child, then everything you've ever done, or everything you are just has to go out the window, because now you're a mother, it's like, oh, I can't do this anymore. And that's actual bullshit. I know you've actually it. I think the maternity leave actually gave me the time. And when with the first one, I was so exhausted, you know, first baby, but the second baby, I wasn't so over, whelmed by motherhood. And I did actually use that time to do my creative pursuits, which I know doesn't happen for lots of people. But for me, it was kind of what it allowed me to take some time off and figure out what I wanted to do. Now it's really important. I think that's yeah, it's really good to share that with others. That season, it's never too late. No, you can make it look like people. You know, you can see actors coming into the full bloom in their 60s and 70s. And it took me Yeah, I just feel like this whole pressure to achieve so young is total bullshit. Yeah. And unfortunately, it's not until you get older that you realize, yeah. I mean, it was hard. It has always been quite hard. I mean, I work for myself now. And I did that to allow myself to have that flexibility to not have to apologize for getting my kid early. From work, but I mean, I probably work a lot harder. And and there's a lot of juggling going on. So yeah, that's it isn't it? So tell me about your children. You have two children. Yeah. Is my labor i 10. And seven, and, and my third child, my sport is charged with it. loves getting a dog is probably harder than having a newborn as I worked out. Yeah. So they Yeah, they're in school. But you know, school finishes. It's a short period. It's a short day. They're great. They're really great. And they always inspire me to do you know, a lot of our kids books have come again, from our inspiration of from our kids, which has been great work and my husband and I co create a lot of the content out there. So we come up with book ideas together. And then I illustrate and he writes it, so it's quite a good team. Oh, that's pretty cool. Do you? Is it a bit if I was doing with husband or wife is it like me? I always say to everyone, you know, you've got to maintain a very healthy relationship. So we work together collaborate on the ideas for the ball, and then we go out several ways. You can't be on top of each other too much. Yeah, yeah. And I guess that's thing you need. You've got your own, you know, creative and aspects that you're capable of doing. You don't need someone looking over your shoulder Oh, no that that differently or yeah, whatever. Well, we do critique each other's work at times, but like, it's in a very kind of small window. And then we have space. Yeah. If you're working, and he also works in, you know, he's in an out, he's doing other stuff too. So I just, I always tell people, it's really wonderful because you have, you can relate to each other. And you have these common projects that you're building together, which is amazing, but it's always good to also have your own space. I think that's very important. Oh, my God, don't get me started about that. How many books have you done together? Um, we've done. So I did all the legends myself. And then and then we've done about seven mod six, six, we've done together yet. So the next one we did off. So as the legend alphabet, which was my post that got turned into a book, which was amazing. And then we got an app. So we got a bit of a publishing deal, which was, you know, a lifelong dream of mine. And the second book we actually came up with, was called if I was Prime Minister. And it was all about what kids would do if they were Prime Minister of the country. They lead the country, sorry. And it was amazing. Because, yeah, my son, we were on a trip to Canberra and he started coming up with all the things he would do if he was Prime Minister. And we were like, Oh, we're going to unique that idea of you. So we've added support to loads of kids and their ideas were incredible. And it just kind of took shape. And it's, it's, it's I think it's my favorite book, it's, it just shows that the world is going to be okay. Because kids have the most incredible, thoughtful, caring ideas that unfortunately, get a bit watered down as they get older. But it's, it's really inspirational. And I think people and we wanted to encourage kids to become more involved with politics and leadership at a young age. I don't know about you, but I didn't really understand what was going on when I was young. Oh, no, it took me a while because my parents were very, and my, my Nana, who was very close to us in the family. They were very secretive about like, who they'd vote for, like, Oh, yeah. Never tell anyone who you voted for. And it wasn't till I got older. And I realized, you know, they were working class, you know, blue collar workers that they will ever voted. And luckily, I sort of, I resonated with that. But yeah, but now like, I talk to my kids about all about politics, like they know who everyone is, and I tell them about, like, I want to understand stuff. So they don't just all of a sudden get thrust into the world of voting and have to go, oh, my gosh, what is this? Who do I vote? Yes, you know, I know, I think they need to be more educated. But But and again, they are planning to teach it more at school, which I think is fantastic. I don't think we ever got taught it at school. We got taught about the history of other countries and French Revolution. We don't learn Australian history. Yeah, so that thing, goodness, that's all changing. But yeah, I'm really hot on that. And actually, I had a guest on last week's episode that, well, this, I was talking the wrong tense because your episode will come out at one point, and the other person's. So a few weeks ago, I had Elise Adlam on the podcast, and she's an Australian philosopher, and feminist. And she was talking about how you can include your children in these big ideas in a childlike way. But right from the start, you know, including them in discussions about social justice, and, you know, this sort of stuff, which I thought was amazing. I think a lot of us do it in some way anyway. But it's really nice to know that it's actually a thing and you feel like you're validated a little bit to go, oh, yeah, we're actually doing the right thing, which is a bad thing to say because, you know, that whole sort of, you know, not mum guilt, but the sort of doubting yourself. But yeah, politics love politics. And I don't know, I think that's really important because I think I mean, I've been involved in this project that's not come out yet. So I'm not going to say what it is, but it is about breaking down stereotypes. And I think that that on a really basic level, you can start with kids I've been just exploring what a child looks like. Like on a very basic level like not what does it look like like a girl that a boy that likes to dress up as a girl, you know, like a nun address of his girl but you know, put on girls clothes and all those things. I've just breaking down what we're just taught and you can teach kids at such a young age, you know, Oh, yeah. And like he was saying before about the the ideas that these kids have Like, unfortunately, us as adults put so much of our own beliefs and mis judgments and all this sort of stuff on the kids, and if they just had the chance to just keep believing what they believe, Yeah, amazing to see, I know, someone actually put when we, these books, we talked to a lot of kids, and we and there was some hilarious ideas about what they would do if they were Prime Minister, like, come up with an extra day of the week called yum day, you know, like, so it wasn't all like, Oh, we're gonna, you know, change the world it was. But there was amazing stuff about, you know, giving to the homeless and all those kinds of things. And, um, and so that's it to us. It's a very lifting book, isn't it? I said, most kids aren't quite that way until? I think so too, because they do have that natural sort of here for others, you know? Yeah, I don't I think all of us are that way to start with. And then for some reason, capitalism, and yes, the world gets involved. And people start to pick whatever they want, if they want to go down, I think my son's a bit of a capitalist doesn't naturally some kids gravitate towards something one way or the other, and just, you know, teaching them to have all these these ideas. You know, look at the kids protesting about climate change. These are getting involved. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, that's the thing that their parents aren't telling him to do this. That's, that's something that they've, I mean, the parents have done an amazing job to allow them to keep thinking that way, yeah. I think um, yeah, and all I want my work to do, and I think I just naturally gravitate towards, you know, trying to shine a spotlight on these messages. I do it on my Instagram and my illustrations in my book, and I just want to look at those, you know, I like to keep current, what's going on? I'm always illustrating kind of as things happen around me, because it just interests me. And hopefully, you know, and people are hopefully able to relate to it, which is, is great. Yeah. political cartoonists. Yeah, it's common, the commentary on on, you know, relevant issues. I was actually, I was gonna ask you, what, what is your sort of inspiration? Yeah, I just get so inspired by what's going on in the news in the world? How are people reacting to things, and it's always excites me to draw something really quickly about it. You know, I just kind of, and I guess, you know, again, I don't regret any of my advertising background, because it actually teaches me to conceptually come up with something interesting on the spot quite quickly, you know, we're used to having to write down these ideas or get these ads out there. So none of the stuff that I've done before it's been a waste it all. So I always Yeah, and I kind of use all those skills. And when I see something come up, I go, Oh, I'd love to do an illustration about this, about that. You know, something that's just happened on the news. So I kind of jump on that. Yeah, no, that's, that's really cool. And you said, like your children, obviously influenced your books. Do you look at things differently now that you have children in terms of what is happening in the world? Yes. Yeah. I think just just constantly Oh, can you just hold on one second? The dog walkers? Yeah, no worries. One second. I'll be one word. Let's hear me. Oh, my God is so funny. They're like, they're going in the round. They all love each other. They just had a bit of a fight. Is that uh, is that like, they pick up lots of dogs and take them all at once? Oh, favorite thing like, I can't he can't even he gets so excited when he hears like a voice isn't the dog or the dog Olga says that I know and Clyde actually, you know, speak. We were talking about my children and firing our book and then our latest book. It's about a rescue Greyhound and my dog inspired me for that book. We always think he's got a bit of Greyhound in him and yeah, and it's it we just launched it. It's called got Clyde the greyhound. Clyde doesn't realize I've named the book after him. But um, yeah. Really beautiful story about a risky gram that doesn't know how to fit into inner city lifestyle. It's so funny. I had so much fun I mean, if you want to think about my day, it was really funny. I spoke to my sister in law who's a doctor, you know? And she was talking about these life saving operations. And she said, What did you do today? And I said, I drew a dog party. It took me that whole day. It's just so much joy to meet kids. You know, this whole world? Oh, yes. Yes, I work in, in early childhood education. So I'm, I love going into work and just immersing myself in a different world of fun and just Yeah. And you can truly be yourself like you can't, you know, there's no hiding yourself straight through you like, it's wonderful to be able to just truly be yourself. And yeah, yeah, a lot of my illustrations too. I actually also add lazing because I want when the parent reads the book, or you have the childcare to also get, you know, like, I like kind of feeding in different messages, some to the kid some to the adult for the adults will have a laugh about it, too. So I think that's really important. Yeah, I love books like that. It's like it goes straight over the kid's head for the parents to say. I'm in the Prime Minister. But we've got this, we talk about what a prime minister does. So we show a picture of the PMs office. And then so on all the spines. I've just written really funny names of books that adults would laugh at. But there's one that's called that's not my PM. And there's another one. There's another book called How to be a pm for dummies. Being just like, really funny. All the all the leaders of the world in one phone book, like a little phone book section, and he had so much fun, right? Yeah, but I've got to say, too, with the book, that's the my favorite teacher. I I like the neutral nod to the, to the Beatles in the music teacher. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Because one of my favorite pages. Thank you so much. Yeah, it was. And, um, and the line was, you know, my favorite teacher is I can't remember the teacher's name, but it's we love seeing getting better all the time, because he thinks we're getting better. You know, parent would like that. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I definitely appreciate the effort that you put into that. Oh, my God, I think I put in too much effort. Sometimes I just sweat over these little these pages on thing. Does anyone notice but I love hearing that type. Yeah. And that's really cool. Like to ask all my mums about this concept of mum guilt, and it's something that you've touched on a little bit when you were talking about having to feel sorry, like saying, Sorry, you'll feel bad because you had to leave when you're working in advertising, you know, for pickups, or whatever. Have you found that that's changed the way you think about that sort of stuff? Since you're, you're doing what you love? And you know what I mean? Yeah, that's a great question. I think that might now my mum guilt comes to you know, I do have that mum guilt towards my kids because I don't have that straightforward job. So I am often working in the evening. And I find that I have to be a bit more put my tools down when they're home because I could just work work quite a lot. Even what you know, when they're at home, which is not you know, sometimes, you know, you're gonna have to work it at nighttime or around but I do think they're aware of me constantly not being focused on them because my job doesn't have a nine to five. Always, uh, you know, get random emails and all that so I'm getting better at it. I think I was shocking at the beginning. And it depends, like if I hadn't been a really intense period where actually during COVID It was actually quite busy for me because a lot of people couldn't do photo shoots. So they would need illustrators and then you had kids homeschool. Are we saying to someone, what did you call the people that had to go to work? They were called essential work. Essential illustrator, I said to a friend. So that was really hard. Because yeah, I and I also saw I had that mum guilt, but I also know that I'm a happier person when I'm enjoying my work. So with that, you know, being balanced. We're never gonna get it right. Are we? Ah, I don't know if there is a right you know what I mean? Like, you feel bad no matter what you do too much time with the kids, and then you go on, I've been neglecting a lot of things. And then I think that I'm a good role model in terms of doing something that I think they can look at and go okay, so she's really loves what she does. So that's a really great thing. And, you know, I have toned back, you know, mealtimes and everything answering my phones and stuff, but I don't think I'm ever gonna get that perfect to be fair. So I yeah, I know. It's different that guilt because yeah, I think I do work harder now than I don't. I run it, you know, work in advertising. Because it for my business, and I want to be really successful. I think it's funny, when you go out and work for yourself, you kind of need to prove it so much that you are doing the right thing that I think sometimes you tend to actually go a bit too far. Like you're actually too, you know, you have to tick so many things off the list, yet. You feel accomplished. So I struggle with that a bit. Yeah, yeah, I can understand that. When you said before about doing something that you love, I think that is so important. And I feel like, because this society we're in is so driven by making money. It's like, a lot of people have lost that sort of, you know, in I don't know who said this quote, but you know, if you do, do something, if you work in something you love, you'll never work a day in your life. Like, I don't know that there'd be, you know, so many people out of 10 that could truly say, I know, and I can't be grateful that I you know, there's lots of people all around the world that have to go work in terrible work conditions. And how lucky am I that I get to? Yeah, I try and be grateful about that. It's funny being it's actually funny working from home, because I have this beautiful studio that I've kind of set up for myself, but then at the same time, I think I kind of do myself, I'm constantly putting the washing on or, yeah, you know, my day, sometimes I have really productive moments, and then I'm just around the house kind of trying to do both. It's we're in such a funny time period, as a woman, as women, you know, we are expected that whole, you can do it all. By us in the face a lot of the time, I think, yeah, because I am picking the kids up from school and not putting them in after school care, or anything like that. So I haven't really quite crazy a lot of the time. Both be there for them and also work and run a household. Yeah, and let alone you know, that's the physical stuff, but the mental, like, as an artist, like your brain doesn't stop in no creative mode, too. So you know, if you see something like especially you say you're inspired by current events, and what's happening, you know, you're taking that in, and then you might go, Oh, I've got this idea. It's like that little what's name needs something and you're like, oh, you know, it's this constant pool, constant push and pull from all sides. That's what I struggle with. Like, if I've got an idea, I need to write something down. But I'm in the middle of, I don't know, making lunches or something, you know, it's just like, how do you physically and mentally can do all this stuff. So true. And I also think that I've had a few when things are really truly gone a little sour is when I've, it's wet when everything is running perfectly, and there's no kids sick, there's nothing goes wrong with work, but if something say something happens during my work, we had something go wrong with one of our books. And so all those all those plates and I'm speeding, if one light, then everything can actually fall down. And so it's you have to be easier on yourself. And I think yeah, and be prepared for those moments. And I've had to learn how to rebound and not take all those moments to personally you know, my ego takes a bashing or any of those things and it sounds and I was yay if it's nice and calm, everything is fine but if things get hectic like a job I have to get out instantly things I mean it can go quite chaotic and I'm trying to learn you know through meditation a few other things I actually yeah, I've I've stopped drinking alcohol I was finding that too hard to balance with kids and locked down and all those kinds of things and it just I wasn't creatively feeling as well. You know, agile. So I've done a couple of things to actually be more present. And because it's you that was, yes, something I think was pulling me back a little bit and not and yeah, keeping all those plates spinning was hard work do you have like external support? And you have family around or Yeah, I can help. Yeah, yeah, I've got parents and I've got beautiful community around me and everything like that. So yeah, I do. And I'm learning to lean on everyone a bit more. Yeah. See, that's what I find that hard. Like, I've got people, but sometimes you feel bad for asking, because you think I should be able to do this myself. And, you know, and my ego, like, I can do this, I don't need to ask for help. But then it's like, Oh, my God, if I don't ask for help, like you said, the plates are gonna fall off, and then all the plates fall off and crash on the floor. And yeah, I know. And I also feel like having that time to myself to like, you know, I'll do exercise or something like I try and be quite rigid with when you work from home, you have to be quite rigid with your day, will fit in that exercise I have to in the morning or do meditate, because otherwise, I know, I've got to put the work in to kind of, you know, feel productive on those other sides of the equation here. Yeah, it's a common thing. A lot of moms I've spoken to that work from home, it's just there'll be, you know, doing something in their studio, and then they'll hear the, the, the dishwasher before the washing machine beeps or like, oh, just go do that, you know, and then you just, I don't know, if you think of, and I don't need to make the place perfect during the morning. Like, I can leave it a bit chaotic. And that's okay. Like, I don't have to clean up, you know, everything. So I'm trying to get better at doing things like that, I guess. Yeah. And just, and also leaving when you're in the creative world, it's, there's this time also, I just want to create for not for any commercial purposes, and just for myself, so I try and those times and then I try and be quite rigid with that other type of, you know, in the one that I still need to make money. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because it's almost like going back to the advertising days where you had that conflict between, you know, creating for someone else. And then your own, your own needs to come out. Sort of wasn't getting met. Yeah. I don't mind creating, I do a lot of freelance projects and actually, like, doing things with a purpose that are not just art for for, so I don't I don't mind working on briefs. And I love that side. I just need to know that I can balance that out with some other stuff for that. But you know, what? When do you ever get it perfectly? I think that weight exists. overthinking everything too much. Like just going just going with the flow of it like a kid is gonna get sick and lie next to you while you work is not the end of the world. That's That's it? Isn't it, like these expectations, letting go of what you think it's supposed to be like, or what society is supposed to be and looking on Instagram? Well, I mean, as I said, like when I started social media, for me has been such an amazing outlet, but it also makes me think everyone's doing a lot better than I am. Yes, yeah. And that's something we talk about a lot on this podcast, actually. And the best advice someone gave me was, if someone if someone's feed makes you feel triggered or uncomfortable, just just unfollow them, like, yeah. Oh, it's so amazing doing that, isn't it? It is a great feeling. But that's the thing like most people will only show the best bits, right? You only seeing the best bits and you can't compare your entire life to their best bit. It's like it's just not I think it's not healthy hunterson And you know, what's actually really good is that instead of being like, so we're stuck in these little was we're often quite isolated, especially as moms if you're working from home, you're quite isolated. If you're working in the studio, but actually to get and talk to other people in your creative industry, and talk and not be scared or jealous about them and actually try to learn from each other, and you'll see also that they're also going through their own struggles. I mean, not that you want to or complain, but it's nice to talk to people, rather than just seeing them as a competition. Yeah. And I think that comes from from age as well. Like, I feel like myself as a younger singer, was very competitive and would get jealous of people. And now, I just think, oh, good on. Yeah. Like, everyone, you for doing that. Yeah, I might think, oh, jeez, I wish I could do that. But then I think, well, I'm doing this. So that's like, you know what I mean, like, you don't lose sight of what journey you're on? Yes, you're able to have that maturity to celebrate someone else's success. And that's actually brought me a lot of joy. I know. And people are so generous when it comes to like giving me beautiful feedback. I was like, just kind of work myself to give other people like not think about yourself so much like get out of your own. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, what's interesting, too, is like you constantly creating for that kind of to get that positive feedback. And if you get too addicted to that it's actually really negative. And it's something I have to fight all the time. Yeah, I don't need everyone giving me compliments to feel better as a person. Yeah, see, I'm the same. I'm the same, this is going off on a tangent now. But when I was younger, in my relationship, like my husband, I'm married. Now before we were married, my husband doesn't do public displays of affection. He's not big on the art, you look beautiful sort of thing. And he's really good in a crisis, like he's, you know, really steady level raising. And so when I was younger, and all my girlfriends were with these blokes that had always have their arm around them when they're fatigued, telling them how beautiful they are, think we should do that. I wish she did. And then at some point in my life, I realized that I could actually say that to myself, I could actually say, Allison, you're amazing, you look really great, or you've done a really good job. I didn't have to wait for someone else to give me that validation. And that was tremendously, like freeing, because now I don't give a shit. You know, me, like, I don't need someone else to make me feel good about myself. And that felt really nice, because I think my dad was the same. He'd never give you like, I worked with my dad for a long time. You'd never get any sort of real positive feedback. You'd never get those comments. And my mum used to say, Oh, he never tells you done a good job. And it's like, I just have to tell myself, I've done a good job. Yeah. Because the same comes from their upbringing about what their parents are actually said it to me. And I know. And it's really funny though. Now my dad if he ever does say like, Wow, he's really proud. Both moments means so much. Yes, absolutely. Because they say no. Yes. But then at the same time, though, I've got to say, my mom was so positive, this is actually goes back to my creativity. And I have to she was so encouraging about it. And it was really important. Yeah, I needed that. Like, I always used to laugh before I even showed my mom and our network. She would gasp being like, oh my god, it's amazing. I was like, I haven't even showed it to you. I need someone in your life though. As long as you've got some sort of that kind of person just in those early stages to give you that confidence in Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's it because he's like, you might not have ever gone down that path if he didn't have that. That encouragement, ality and now I'm with my kids, although I always laugh that I don't want them to go into the creative world. I was like, I just wanted to be a chartered accountant. Something really boring and regular. But I know it's so funny. But i my i was always allowed to kind of do my thing and go into my creative choices. I was never stopped. Yeah, and art classes in the afternoon, all those things that are really important to work to making sure that your kid is well rounded in life. And it really gave me the tools to I think just be able to kind of go for it. Even though it took me a few years to get back to like my initial that kid drawing on the walls and she had to go, she had to go a few years, making $1 or two out and actually not just being a pure artist. I think it was important. I kind of know how the world works a little bit more now. Yeah, yeah. And like you said, you picked up those skills of being able to like get an idea and really quickly and you know, turn things around like from the advertising. Gonna Yeah, I think that that it all it Yeah, it all helped Are you kids creative as well they drawing and it's so funny. I didn't see early on the same obsession as I did, but now it's kind of coming a bit later. I don't know. And it's funny. I don't know if I I push it as much as I should or, but this just naturally coming out in in interesting ways like drama and and all those things it's so funny you see them, um constantly growing. You just you can't ever peek what they're gonna become. And for my son is 10 now it's really exciting thing I'm kind of on the verge of going into teenagehood and who is going to be? Yeah. Oh no. Yeah, I feel like it's I'm on the cusp before they go into like really negative space. How old are you? Well, I've got a seven year old and a 14 year old. Oh, so you're a bit older. So I've got a seven or 10 year old. Yeah, well over the shop. But yeah, gosh, it's just odd. And I that before Alex, like Alex is my eldest before he became a teenager, I just didn't know what to expect. I thought because I hadn't I've had no brothers with a sister. So I didn't know what the boys were going to be like. But he's just, I don't know, just the most straightforward, logical, well adjusted, settled child. It's just a miracle. It's just lovely. And I like you talking about like pushing the drawing or the creativity. I both my husband and I play instruments in a musical. But Alex, I always said to him, do you wanna? You want me to teach you something? Do you want to know I don't wanna do not he's not a really sporty kid. But all of a sudden, about 12 months ago, he decided he wanted to play the recorder. Just out of nowhere. I'm like, great. The recorder I had to pick something out. And then it was a bit much for me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle because I had a nicer sound. And then he decides he wants to play the bagpipes. Oh, my now but he's so he's actually he's picked it up so quickly. Like for kid that's done nothing musical. I think it was just any, you know, they just get get it through. The Jains picked it up so quick. And he's he's actually good at it. So it actually sounds nice. Coming through the house with four doors shut between him and us. It sounds lovely. I love that you didn't push anything on him too much. Like I think we pushed the piano on my oldest to he hated it in the classic thing of pushing it and then being able to step back and just letting him naturally. It scared me though, because people around me like I was singing in a vocal group when he was born and other mums were getting their kids to join this junior group that we had. And I was like, Oh, maybe I should be doing this. And I actually got him to come to a Christmas carol gig, just real casual just to sing Christmas carols with us. And he just said, I didn't really I don't want to do that again. I'll say okay, that's fine. Like you've had a go, you know, and I just I've just really had to step back, which was hard for me. Because I'm, you know, do you want to do this? Do you want to do that? Yeah, that can. It's also like you, you want to make sure. Just because, you know, you've got all that experience in the music world, but and you don't and then you're like, Oh, have I deprived them? Should I have pushed harder? Yeah, yeah. And all these mums are doing it. Should I be on that? Was that felt like I was? Yeah. Am I doing the right thing. And in the end, it's just happened the way it's happened. So it's lovely. But my other ones completely different. He just wants to do everything he wants to. Like he's really sporty. He's trying out all different things. So they're very different children. And I don't think we'll ever play a musical instrument. He's just too sporty. But that's fine. I've got my bag. Oh my god, amazing. I'll talk to you and like, you know, 10 years from now and you'll be like he's a professional bagpipe. I've always had one of my good friend of mine from down here. She's Scottish and she wants him to play at a wedding. Oh, there you go, mate. That'd be your first professional gig. Oh my god. You gotta get into the wedding circuit. Wedding weddings and funerals Oh my god. I JC a poor boy that I think has been exiled to the park up the road from us playing the bag Oh God I had just so loud and he hasn't even got all the stops out of all of these things yet like they can get louder sunlight. Oh god help is when he loves that he really loves it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison. Wanted to ask to your children obviously must be aware that mom and dad are creators and make does that make you like excited and play? They know that you do stuff apart from being their parents. Yeah, it's so funny though I talk about this quite a bit. So I, you know, at their local school, we just got to a really lovely public school, I do a lot of reading and, you know, kids are aware, and it's just so I think they before they discover influences, they're really love our books, and they're always coming up to us to the playground and talking to us and just being amazing. And my kids are really proud of that. Like, it's almost like this. They get a bit of fame out of us, but they're like, I mean, yeah, as I said, you know, like a five year old then, before they've discovered YouTube. But they, ah, I laugh. If I go, I've done a new book, you know, it's pretty amazing to get a book published, and they don't even my kid. My son's read a latest book. And I go to a, I'm going to stop did I dedicate the books to them? I go, I'm gonna stop dedicating these books to you. This is the last one. I don't know. Look. He's, he kind of get some bit embarrassed now and all that kind of stuff. But I know he loves it. But then they're really not that excited whenever we got a new board is that she's done another one. Oh, I know. I know. And it's so funny. Because when sometimes when their friends come over, they want to watch me draw thing and they don't really know underneath. Yeah. Would you like me to come in and do a reading of my new book? No, no. Okay. That's fine. I'm not coming in. But yeah, it's funny. But yeah, as I said, and then then they'll do beautiful things like make their own books. Both things. It's just not a constant, because I think it's it's everywhere around them. I think that must be that must happen for a lot of parents who are doing these interesting vacations, like kids just kind of it kind of becomes quite normal, doesn't it? Hmm, yeah. And the excitement of it, like has gone out? Because I see it every day. And I see it. I know. I know. So but yeah, I'm sure later in life, they'll be really proud. Hopefully. I tell you funny. And then I dedicated another book, I think to my siblings. I don't think they got that excited. Maybe that's my big hint that I think it's so wonderful to dedicate a wall. But it's not actually to animate. Oh, yeah, that's quite funny. I when I did my first album, I did it. I have so many dedications on it. And I think the most excited with the ladies because I have the I used to teach Aqua classes at my local church. And it was beautiful bunch of of elderly ladies. And they were just like, like I had 20 Nana's like they were just beautiful. And so and they'd always be like, Oh, when's your next gig because none of them were online. So they had to work out how they were going to get their tickets and all this sort of stuff. But they'd come I had, you know, a table of them come to I put them in my dedications. And they were, I think, the most excited. None amazing partners, the charity sort of thing. Yeah. And that support and you know, what's amazing? Is those those type of people, you know, when I've had book launches, and the most interesting people that I never would have thought come more than your close friends come to these things. And it's just good to have those type of people in your life. Oh, yeah. It's very, it's very, I don't know what the word is. It's validating but it's lovely as well, like going past the ego. It's yeah. It's just to see you meet in your journey. You know, in the creative world, you meet so many interesting characters. And some people are just more attracted to what you do than others. I think that's just, yeah, I'm sure one of my kids is going to follow me more than my other kid. And then I might get an accountant if dreams do come true. Just a regular paycheck. attracted to that stability, because there's no stability in the work we do. At the same time, I'm so addicted to like, you know, the highs and the, you know, that an email can avail like, you know, the other day we were on the news, and Anthony Albanese was reading our prime minister, but yeah, I mean, that just does not happen. That's on the news. And you're like, Wow, this is just so crazy. So the other day we had on and someone read our book on Play Store, which was just, yeah, that's almost like the peak, isn't it? That's like the summer. Right. You know, what's interesting, though, is sorry, I always go you know, what's interesting to me, um, you have these new summers and you think, Well, that's it. I'm retiring that I mean, how can you get better and then this little thing called ambition? Get in or are you going comes in your head and guess what are you going to do next? It was like when I got my first book published, I was like, Oh, well, I've done it. I've achieved what I wanted to because that was always my greatest ambition was to do that. And then like, what about that next book, Becky? Oh, that's funny. I love that now. Good idea. But thank you so much for chatting with me today. It's so lovely. I've just enjoyed meeting you know me too and it's so nice talking to someone in the creative field but on a different spin on you know, I love talking to people like that I've got to I yeah reminds me not just talking to people in the book world or the the art world music or anything. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Mother Wild - Mother's Day Special A global group of women who believe in mothers mothering themselves. S2 Ep42 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia and many other countries around the world. I am joined by 4 creative mothers, Angeli Gunn , Tasha Miller , Karryn Miller and Carmela Fleury representing Mother Wild - a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their 2 other co-founders Anna af Jochnick and Karin Hesselvik the girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats (both virtually and in real life). 2 years ago the idea for their first book Mother Wild: A Book Of Mothers’ Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills and words to bring the book to life, together with 9 artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children, the true intention is to re-awaken the wild, adventurous spirit in mothers - and not just through the words on each page. In the first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how - by mothering them. ***This episode contains discussions around post natal anxiety*** Mother Wild website / book / instagram Podcast website / instagram The Lost Daughter movie Mercy on the Mother Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, thank you to Danni Reade for narrating. Music is from Australian new age trio Alemjo , and is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia. I'm joined by four creative mothers, Anjali Gan, Tasha Mila, Karen Mila, and Camilla Fleury representing mother wild, Mother wild are a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their two other co founders, Anna F. Chuck, Nick and Karen hustling. The girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats, both virtually and in real life. Two years ago, the idea for their first book, Mother wild, a book of mother's Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills to bring the book to life, together with nine artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children. The true intention is to reawaken the wild adventurous spirit in mothers, and not just through the words on each page. In this first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how to run retreats for mothers to Mother themselves. Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, and a big thank you to Danny Reed for narrating music used from a limb joy with permission. This episode contains discussions around postnatal anxiety is this the first time you have more than one person? It absolutely is the fifth. And you don't have just one more you have. I have triplets. Yeah. Could I just take a photo of this? Like so let's see. How's everybody going? Oh, so good. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks, ladies. Sorry, I'm trying not to seem daunted. But I'm like, This is gonna be awesome. Some giggles Yeah. Thank you so much. This is really exciting. I've not just got one but I have got four creative months with me today. Welcome along, everybody. Thank you. Yeah, this is so exciting. We're here today we're celebrating creative mothers all around the world today. Lots of special guests. And we're talking about this amazing book that I've got in my hands, Mother wild and the the amazing group of women behind. We are mother wild. So I'm going to start by talking to Camila. Camila, welcome along. Thank you. Tell us a little bit about yourself where you're from a little bit about your involvement with the book and with the project as well. So I am part French part Spanish, but I was raised moving around quite a bit just because of my father's job and after birth. I think motherhood I don't know if I think Tasha calls it a beautiful transition. It broke me but also made me go deep into I became a very inquisitive spiritual seeker and I did a bunch of things. And I believe it was iOS go I was looking at a ceiling and there were broken knees, and they were about 24. And it was like you need to work with mothers and all of you might be broken. But together, you hold a new roof or a new paradigm. And so I just sought out to work with a couple of moms through a thing called the online moment village. And it was six moms at a time. And from this village, I offered a Wildeman Mastermind course, which these beautiful ladies joined. And from there, it was just magic and predestined. And I did nothing but just show up and let magic unfold. So that's how I actually happened. Wow. So it was really quite like an organic sort of thing. It sort of came from weight. Do you have a background in art before you had your children? And I'm sure I've always been an artist, but no, I got lost in engineering for school and and then I think doing a life coaching training that Tasha and I both did, they made us do vision boards. And then that took me on a vision board journey, which I'm still on on a daily basis, which keeps me sane. So I don't think I'm an artist, per se. Although writing is an art right, so I guess I've always been a writer. Ish. A bad one, but I've always been one. Awesome. All right. Karen, let's go to you. Can you share whereabouts you are in the world? what your background is and your involvement with the book as well? Yeah, I'm, I am originally from New Zealand. I currently live in Japan, and I left New Zealand when I was 20. And I haven't really besides having my two girls there. So they had some claims in New Zealand. I haven't really spent much time living back there. But yeah, so my involvement with the book. Yeah, I mean, it's been such a collaborative process together. And Carmela came up with the beautiful idea. And then we all kind of joined together and worked on it, to bring it to life and be clear with Darren, the idea would have stayed an idea. Like there was enormous momentum behind car and in terms of writing and making it I mean, publishing, editing all of that. So that should be it. She won't say that. But we're very, you know, it's funny, cuz I could like see your face and you're like, hang on, like, What did you say? Yeah. Yeah, no, it's been a beautiful process. Like I am, I was before becoming a mum, I was working as a travel writer for many years. And then I kind of switched and I moved into PR, and part of that was also the stability of PR, when I was working in as a travel writer, it was a little bit like any kind of creative pursuit, sometimes it's the income is high, and sometimes the income is low. And so, you know, like, travel writing was always my joy. And I work with hotels now. So it's still joyful, like, it's still in the travel industry. But I think for me, this project, gave me a chance to kind of flex a different side of creativity for me, whereas, you know, like, I'd been focused on, you know, what I need to do for the clients or what I need to do for the magazine. And this was like, Well, what do I want to do? What do I want to bring into this world? And what's the kind of message that I want to share with moms? And, you know, we had a collective vision, we all wanted to share something with mums, and we all wanted to impact mums. But um, yeah, I think that's like, part of what really excited me about this project, because it was, yeah, just that pure creativity versus having to meet someone else's. And in that, also, you know, we didn't have to meet like a publishers demands, you know, we like we followed our own rulebook when it came to this. You had to leave for two years for a very, very long birthing process. That was, yeah, but yeah, having that complete creative freedom to present whatever you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, that's tremendous. All right, Tasha, over to you. Yeah, I grew up in the United States and I live back here now but I met Carmela first and Tokyo and I was living over there with my family. I became a mom there. And I remember like you might see a meet cute in a movie I remember the first time I laid eyes on her she was just all hair and legs in this big pregnant belly and I just thought I don't whatever she's got I want some of that was just so magnetic. And it's still like a pinching me listening to all of these ladies talk and just thinking this is really my wildest dreams, not just the friendship, but the fact that we get to create and collaborate and go on this wild ride together is just, it's so energizing and invigorating. And I you know, for me, I don't know that I would have ever called myself an artist. Esther before having the opportunity to work with these women, they loved to travel, but I look, you know, I loved exploring, I loved making things, but I think, you know, we talk a lot together about uncoiled potential, and that inside all of us, there's just so much wrapped up in there and particularly under, like the weight of motherhood, it's so easy to sort of shrink and putting, put that part of ourselves, you know, back on the shelf in the back burner. But what I found with working with these women and then continuing to connect with other creative women who are mothers, too, is it It not only isn't uncoiled it's just like this fire that burns now and you know, a lot of times I feel like the such a construct or an idea in our minds that you know, we need to hold on to our idea of hold on to things till the right time, you know, to be able to get out there and do that and, or keep waiting or or be afraid that life is passing a spy or somebody else is going to kind of take our whatever, seize the moment, and it can create a lot of tension, and conflict inside and what we found with them. And these are like the most generous, incredible women but also every mother we've met along the road has been the most incredible, generous creative woman is like, when you see someone burning bright, it just lights you up more. And the more it's like a generative quality so I can look at so many things in my life now go yeah, I've always been an artist actually. Like, we're all in coke, Coke co creation with our lives, you know, and and looking for ways to express express that so yeah, it is. So it's it's been really dreamy. Yeah. And I must say you're you're you've got such an infectious way of talking about it. You can't help but get like, swept up with it. It's it's awesome. It was like a stoke, right? Like, I feel like for surfers when they're on the party wave. I'm like who's joining us? This is so good. That's it. Listen, I love that. All right, and finally to Anjali, welcome. Hi, thank you for having us. This is such an honor to be here. Yes, I share a little bit about your background where you're from. Yeah, just a bit of your involvement with the book as well. Yeah, absolutely. And before I do that, I have to say about these magnificent women. Carmela is like our visionary and our connector or community builder. With current the way she was in the writing process. It was like watching magic unfold right before your eyes, she would come up with most beautiful things. And so much of this book has like her heart just stamped on these pages. And she is so beyond organized because she helps make things happen. We wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for her. And Tasha, even though she doesn't, or hadn't seen herself as an artist, she takes the most beautiful pictures. And she puts together the most incredible videos and she captures like heart and soul and spirit. And she found so many of our illustrators, and she just has this magic radar for finding talent in all its forms. And so I just wanted to give them a shout out before I dive into this because I really Yeah, I mean, it's everyone brings so many strengths and talents and gifts, that I actually think this is not just a once in a lifetime gathering, it's like a once in multiple lifetimes that you get just this beautiful confluence of talent coming together. And it's incredible that I look back on this and think, you know, during two of the hardest years of most of our lives, that we had this really incredible project we were working on. And for me, it gave me so much joy. And also it was a story of source of strength and inspiration. So I was born and raised in Canada, and I loved, loved traveling, and I still do. But once I became a mom, it became even more important to travel and see more of the world. So I was traveling in Japan, which is where I met Carmela and like Tasha said she just has this magnetic quality where it's like que you. You say the words and I will be there because we're going to make dreams come true. And the heart of this book really feels Like, we want to make sure that mothers don't get weighed down with the demands of motherhood and whatever it is that lights them up, or brings them joy, we want them to remember that. And, as well as they're reading this book, it's their children who understand the importance of their mothers having their own dreams, and finding their own joy in places outside of motherhood. And that is so important. The book I love on the back, six authors and nine artists from 13 Different countries created this book virtually while caring for 30 children during a global pandemic. That's just like, I don't know how else you could say this is amazing. No, it actually ended up being 32 children because it took so long for the book to come out to were born and the process the same mom, so there's two. So you could give them a shout out and then current who are not here. And they they helped get illustrators and help get our ducks in a row and funding for Kickstarter. And so they they're here in spirit, they can can you each share with us what what sort of your pages were in the book of what your your dreams are in the book, we really came together to to write and bounce off of each other. So now when we go through the words, like it's, it is hard to discern, oh, that was definitely you know, my thing. But I think that that has kind of been the spirit of how we've worked together the entire time. Of there's no ownership over one thing they there is not only a generosity, but a tremendous amount of trust. And we really looked like I always joke, I got my fountain of bad ideas like I like overflowing with them. But I use that term loosely because we love the idea of like nothing is off limits. You never know, you know what you say? Even if it's 50 iterations down the line, how that might have inspired somebody else's art or else's ideas in the world. And so in terms of that, but I will say the dream that I personally feel incredibly connected to is a beautiful illustration done by aura Lewis, who was our first Illustrator to jump on board and say yes. And it's mother's in a field of flowers. And it's all about mothers coming together and community and supporting each other supporting children running around wild and free. And when I look at that, I'm just like, that feels like home. Like that's the direction I'm going, you know, if only if only in my mind. Yeah. So So basically, like you're explaining not It's not each page isn't one person's it's you've all thrown your ideas together, and come up with it collectively. So Alison, if I can add, I think we've had windows of between like, because we're not, we weren't on the same plus we had the Europeans. And so it was over three, basically one of two or three were either waking up or falling asleep when we were all together. So we had maybe a window of 10 minutes when we were all clear headed. And so but just the act of showing up. And this is for mothers who are listening, just the act of I mean, I think we're just being each other's accountability. Coach, we just by showing up, we would just maximize our time together rather than like, oh, I would like to write a book. But I'll start tomorrow. And when it's just yourself, you might just put it off a little more than when you're showing up. And we're like for the next 10 minutes. We're going to brainstorm and so we would brainstorm. And what was funny and I remember Anjali, you know, when you said like watching card from a distance, like magic happened unfolding, like I feel like that happened at some point, because we sat down with, I think we had 120 dreams that we had all come up with together. And what we did is remove the location because it was like Thailand, Bali, this the other, you know, we remove the geographical location because the feeling was kind of the same, you know, dancing in the desert in Africa, you could be doing it in Australia. You know, it's just remove the geographical location and kind of bring in like, Who wants to go in the snow who wants to go in the ocean who wants to go deep sea, you know, and CDC diving who wants to, there were all these characteristics that were the same in all these different places. So we actually just collect you know, combined all of them and I think we came down to 18. And it's funny because we asked a couple of friends along the way and we all had similar daydreams or similar adventurous dreams of things that we'd like to do. So go ahead card on I was just gonna say to like, we wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And you know, we kind of say that as well, like whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And I think you know, like to just give Anjali, a little shout out as well, since she said such beautiful things about us before. Like, I think, with this process, as well, rest was also like a really important one that we wanted to you know, they think we get caught up in doing these things, big things in activity, but especially as a mom, like resting and taking that time of solitude is really important. And that was one of the things that we wanted to get across. And one of the things that throughout this whole process like Angela was really good at reminding us about, yeah. Self Care. Yeah, self care guru, for sure. So Angela has got it nailed down. She is the cream of the crop when it comes to mothers. She's one of Yeah, one in a million. Love you girls. And I love it makes me so happy to see mothers taking exquisite care of themselves. So anywhere along the way, when we can remind each other that it just feels really, really good. Yeah, for sure. I actually saw a quote the other day on Instagram, and it was something about I can't remember verbatim, but it was about we see rest as a reward for something rather than as a part of just general life. Yeah. It's so true, isn't it? It's like, we have to get all this done. And then we can take the break. But no, we have to prioritize rest. And Alison, in creating this and even just creating mother wild, we we set out to define a few things that are really important to us. And one of the things we realize is like with that grind culture and with that hustle culture, it didn't quite feel feminine. And when Carmelo was talking about the new paradigm, you know, that was something that would come up often is how can we do this in a way that maybe feels more feminine or feels more delightful, or we're not necessarily trying to get to those same goals that we've been taught to believe are markers of success. And so Karen said something really beautiful. She's like, Guys, Friendship first. And so that kind of was like set the tone for us to take care of not only these friendships, but to take care of ourselves in the process of birthing this book. And Tasha would always say, Guys, it's the journey, right? So like any hard lessons and challenges and bumps is like, okay, it's part of the journey, and even the rest and the self care that factored into so many of our meetings and moments and even our time away from one another, that it kind of has got woven into the fabric of our lives, because this is how we want to do things and approach life now. Not just Yeah, yeah, we really want to walk the walk. Yeah. Have you noticed that your lives have changed since you've done this in the way that you care for yourself? Everyone's nodding. Yeah. At the very beginning of our, you know, when we first came together, and I feel like I'd love you to explain it in more detail, but Carmela brought this analogy, she said, Okay, we're a flock of birds, you know, and if you look up in the sky, birds flying formation, and there's always one at the front, the one that has the most energy, let's say, but when that bird needs to fall back, it falls back. And without any fuss. Another one comes forward and takes that so so she's like, so when you need to fall back, fall back. And when you want to fly harder and faster and flap harder and faster. Go to the front, there's no hierarchical thing. Again, it avoids boils down really to like a tremendous amount of trust. And it's not that I just that I like, trust that these ladies are going to be brilliant in what they do and all of those things, but I also really trust that they'll respect and understand and encourage me when I'm tired and life is demanding and a kid is sick, or I just need to lay down that that's going to be okay. But we're I think it's the educational system that kind of teaches us like oh, you know, get grades don't show your neighbor like while you're doing the test. And and I think that that that sense of collaboration is lost along the way. But scientists do show and birds don't know and they're not reading the scientific facts, but they know that by flying together, they will reach they'll not only go faster, further, but they'll reach together the destination they set because I don't know how they communicate again, but they reach it. So for survival. We need to Uh, and I do think creativity is needed. It's vital, vital force for any human school, you know, just by flocking together, we're reaching a goal together. And it's more fun. It's more lucrative. It's more everything. Why don't more women do this? We thrive in community. Yeah, absolutely. In my dream, children run wild and free. Mothers thrive together in community. I like talking about mum guilt. That sounds really nice. You want to go there? Let's go there. Yeah, let's do. It was the first to take that one up. And quick question, Alison, do you steer away from profanity? Or can we just oh, gosh, no, go for it. Okay, we can talk. I thought I remembered that. Yeah. I'll figure it out. first. You first Oh, okay. So just recently, on our Instagram, we had a post with like, a whole bunch of middle fingers up saying fuck off mom guilt. So this is definitely a topic that we discuss amongst ourselves. And for me, I don't have mom guilt. As in, I don't invite mom guilt in to stay for tea. That toxic voice is so not welcome. In my mind. It's a fucking waste of space. Bravo, I believe. Thank you. Yeah, put it in a timeout or just don't like it's permanent timeout. Because I believe I'm doing the best I can at any given moment. It's a fallacy to think that we can be at all all the time. So my intention is to be present. And it comes down to this. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being. And it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working? She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? So I just think it's absolute shit. And we have the choice to value ourselves and try not to be everything to everyone all the damn time. document that. Sorry. Yeah, I was clapping I was. Luckily I was muted. So distract from your beautiful, beautiful words. Yeah. I love that. Can you send that to me, please? Because that is amazing. I feel like I need to duck up next. I actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like the thing about presence because I think that you know like, that's when Mama guilt starts to enter when you're thinking about the future or the past. But you know, like that, that one line you talked about with presents really stuck with me there. That's the key. And Carmela, I know you're itching. To hear what you have to say. You think more I think I'm so happy I'll listen that you can't you ask this in every podcast because it is what terrifies women and and mothers from moving forward and it's that I don't know if it was passed on from generations. It definitely once you you do the work on delete Justin, things unlock and you can finally walk your path. I the first piece I wrote on medium and we're happy to I'm sure we all have our own versions of our own battling that that that demon of mom guilt. But um, I wrote a piece my first piece on medium was Dear Mama guilt, your fucking pitch. And it was I just talked about how Prince Siddhartha left at 29 to renounce it. Yeah, he left his family of origin for seven years. He left his wife with a newborn son behind. And he came back from meditating under the treatment and met his seven year old child, no biggie, what else he was substances subsequently named the Buddha, the enlightened one. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curiosity seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids and who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh my gosh, he's right. Am I doing this? And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to bat away. You know, he was just asking me a normal question, but I took it really personally and I had to have that argument back. So this poor man, I think it was at a chicken boat for a boat ticket. And I was like, I've been doing this and that and he's like, Okay, give me your ticket keep going. But then that thought behind if one at once I did that, that job on Julie did a bedding her away. I mean, it was just like, Alright, let's go walk the Camino. Let's go do this. Let's go. It was just one after the other. So I recommend moms to do that work first. And then things will unfold. Hmm, huh. Well said Well said, sir. I'm just conscious that my the way I'm looking here is changing quite a bit because of my you're enlightened. My son likes it. I love it. It's a halo. I'm just gonna close my brain. Literally glowing. blinding you all in a minute. I love your background. Allison. I'm so intrigued me. We're just lose back there. There we go. Yeah, I do a lot of different things for fun. Like my my core, I'm a singer and a songwriter. But I do all sorts of things just to switch off. So there's a lot of painting stuff and that there's all my put my kids paintings up there because I find that incredibly inspiring when I'm writing and, and I've got ever up there as well, because they're pretty amazing. Yeah, I love it. It's like a living vision board. Right? We make a lot of vision board. Yeah. It's like my whole my vision wall. And then I've got you can't see it, because it's out of picture. But real, real artists work that I've framed that I've purchased. So I've got like, that really awesome stuff over here is like the seven. Love it. But it's that whole idea of like to be beautiful. You have to take in beauty. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And we just were taught to think that that's really frivolous. But that's like the thing that gives us vital energy, you know, and in a generative like reciprocal relationship, if we're going to keep creating, whether it's creating art for others, or it's creating snack boxes and creating a plan to get three kids in a minivan before 8am, whatever it is, right? We're constantly meeting some sort of need or demand or whatever. Like, we've got to fill ourself up with beauty. And I think along with rest, it's incredibly valuable. And I always love coming across a woman who's killing herself often that way. It's like striking. In my dream, the drums and my body are one. I dance wildly, under the blazing sun. Yeah, I wanted to share too, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, so maybe somebody can help me. But a quote that we talk about a lot is the Carl Jung one that one of the greatest burdens on a child is the unlived life of the mother or the parents or however it was phrased. And that's for me, and I think a lot of probably the four of us here is kind of a compass to come back to, when, you know, Mama guilt inevitably rears its head, or I'm finding that tension within just like, I, I'm not going to be perfect. I don't you know, I also have take issue with the whole construct of a good mom and a bad mom or whatever, like, you know, I think that that's really loaded as well. But basically, at the end of the day, there's so much like I, I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, they're going to experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who you know, is is yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit in life, that part I can do and my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. Thanks, amazing reactions. We love we love giggling we love having fun. We throw dance parties all the time virtual dance parties 80s Dance parties. I mean, we want to feel that pleasure and that joy in our lives and we want to share it with others. And so along with rest, that's kind of one of our core principles or beliefs, if we're gonna get kind of corporate there, you know that it's like, we like taking deep breaths, dancing together, laying down and, and really supporting each other as much as we can. And like Carmela said, showing up. But what's interesting is that when we offer resting or dancing, or move, you know, mothers and we're generalizing here, but tend to run away a little bit. Whereas we're like, we're going to do a really intense intellectual, like, professors from the University of Jerusalem are coming to talk about the taboos of motherhood, like everyone shows up. So again, I don't know if it's something to do with our educational system that values research and, and you know, have lots of slides and lots of proof over just easy, playful, joyful, fun dancing, without a mental conclusion at the end. So that's an interesting, and arrest Oh, my goodness, mothers are like, not using my time efficiently, there's no chance you're wasting in my dream, I sail across the sea. destination unknown. Adventure beckons me. Color and before we move on to the next topic, is there anything you wanted to add to the mom guilt soup mix that we've got going on? You know, it's something we've we've, we've talked about internally so much, but yeah, I think through this process of working with these amazing woman is how I've really overcome Hmong girl. And I think, you know, they kind of let talks about, like, what we've been brought up to believe and stuff. And I definitely for the longest time, and I've talked about this internally, like, had my self worth tied up with productivity, and whether that's productivity through work, or whether that's how much I'm giving something children. And, you know, I'm on this constant hamster wheel, whether it's with Yeah, with all parts of my life. But yeah, like coming together, and like exploring these topics with these woman, and, you know, through the other things that we run with other amazing woman and stuff I've really come to learn, you know, like, it's not doing anyone justice, when I feel guilty about these things. Least of all my kids, you know, and especially like, I have two young girls, and it's something I don't want to model. Like, I want them to go out there. And, you know, like, do what they want to do and do it unapologetically. So how can I expect them to do that? If I'm not doing that? Yeah, that is so important, isn't it? And I think it's it I think if we're gonna change the world, we've we've got to be able to model it for the next generation so they can continue it on. I think that's so important. Is it Yeah, residue, just stop here. Do you want to say that we have relapses we have? Oh, yes. All into mom guilt. On a daily basis, were like, Oh, my goodness, I missed this moment. Because I was doing that and, and just letting letting go of them. I do think just that introspection of like, Oh, I think I did. I overdid it, I gave to too many people at once. So we really encourage mothers to take solid, you know, solo retreats and just a little pockets of recharging, re re re evaluating the you know, adding creativity and what an arrest and play and things that recharges Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's not not dwelling on it as well. Like I think I've got better you know, when you have the relapse that you don't beat yourself up about it, you know, like, Yeah, I think yeah, we're all work in progress. Yeah, absolutely. I had a I had a therapist I started seeing this year and I, you know, finally blocked at the time and she would do telehealth, I have three really young kids and so I'm like, okay, you know, I cut this one hour right and but that hour leading up to it be so stressful because you kind of do all the things and get them so set up and you know, when I'd arrived there and be exhausted and then our be up and I'd be like Okay, I gotta jump back into it. And she said to me, she's like, whether you can schedule five extra minutes or 30 extra minutes or an hour and what it all what do you do, all you do is lay there or you score your even whatever it is. He's got to give yourself that room that pause to integrate. And it was so simple, but I literally hadn't considered that you know, it's just how much can I squeezing. And now when I look at my schedule, and I'm probably the biggest offender with relapsing in a lot of ways, but I look at how can I give that little bit of space? Or if there's a lot that I can give, that's even better, because we have to be able to integrate, otherwise, we just holding on to so much all the time. It's no release, until we explode, our body breaks down. Yep, that's so true. That's difficult physical boundaries. I remember a mom was just like, had the kids at the same age and we were meeting and hers. She had like this peaceful salt lamp and like, she was just in her place. And my kids were hanging on asking for food. And I was like, why? Like, they're the same age. Like, it's not like, why do you mind need more than yours. And she's just like, they know that this is my space. And I was like, Oh, I got the salt lamp. And it has my dream, I speed through an open space. I howl as the wind whips my face. All right, so another big topic I love to talk about with my guests is identity. So the way that the concept of your own identity changed when you became a mother? Would anyone like to start us off on that? I'll dive in. I don't know what I'm gonna say. I'll just dive in. I don't know, I want to come back to like what Camilla said in the beginning of quoting Tasha about this beautiful transformation. I think, you know, like, for me, becoming a mum, like, during the whole pregnancy process, I was so consumed with what was happening inside me that I hadn't really thought ahead to what would happen when the baby came out. And I think, you know, like, I, I really had in my head that, like, when I had this child, like, that was not that it was it for me, but I would give it everything, you know, like, I just really had that in my mind that I had to give up. It was definitely that kind of mentality. And then I think like, within a week, I'm like, Oh, I don't want to give myself up. You know, like, I'm like, I'm exhausted and everything, but I'm like, I'm like, okay, that's not the version of motherhood, that like I want to have, and then connecting with these amazing woman, you know, and like, just finding people with similar. Yeah, you know, we just, we think similarly about motherhood, you know, that it's not this martyrdom, it's, you know, they that you still want to be your own person, you know, you're not, you're expanding as a person. You're not giving up, you know, and I think it was the hugest transformation, and I don't think I would be, I think it was a good transformation for for one, you know, like, what we're doing is all about mothers and I wouldn't we wouldn't be doing any of this if we weren't mothers ourselves. Because we've gone through the whole process. But yeah, it's, uh, oh, come on. I will add, and I don't know if anyone who had more than one felt the same way. I felt like from zero to one was a massive like, whoa, tidal wave. How will my I mean, I think suffering postpartum anxiety for sure. And then the second one, didn't feel it that much. It was like, oh, no, I can I can be a human too. And I remember when I had my first one, a friend that I used to work with. She was like, What are you doing? And I was like, I'm drowning in motherhood, in the early days of motherhood. And she's like, I knew it. Like you're one of those brilliant people who like has given up everything for motherhood and like, we need you. We need you to leave. You know, she had just read Sheryl Sandberg like lean in I was like, I Ali Wong, and I was like, I don't need to lean in, I need to lay the fuck down. I'm tired. And I remember being like, I felt like I was letting her down. But I was like, there's no other thing that could be doing right now than what I'm doing and wallowing in it. Whereas for when my daughter was born, it was a very different energy. It was definitely more and I think that's probably what women have when they have multiple choices like the first one you're like, oh, and then it gets a little bit easier, but maybe not. I think I've had mom I've heard of moms who have the third child was like they it took it took them down. Tasha or Anjali, would you like to add anything to that? What can I say? I always like to tell this story. So when my daughter was about my first child was six weeks old and I motherhood and postpartum just hit me like a tidal wave. I mean, the only way I can describe the level of anxiety is I constantly felt like I was in the middle of this ocean with storm When the waves all around me just treading water and just trying to hold up my baby and keep her from drowning, it was It surprised me, because I always assumed that everything would feel so natural. And that I would, yeah, that was really kind of where my unfolding would have been there with this title of motherhood. And, you know, it was more complex than that. And I think that was my real first sort of understanding of how we can all contain multitudes that it can be the most wonderful, beautiful thing and also, it can be so incredibly painful at the same time, and is that once I could kind of allow for that, I feel like that I might, I've been able to expand so much more and allow for so many more things to be true at the same time, but it's lucky with my husband just so anxious, so exhausted all the things like you're saying Carmela with that particular that transition to being a mom. And I'm like, Oh, I just feel like I'm failing. I feel like, you know, everything I'm doing is not the right thing. I'm so worried about this. And he just looks at me and he goes, it doesn't matter. And I'm like, What the fuck do you mean? Like, this is literally the only thing that matters, like everything and I do in life is all not you like gonna be measured. It's like how well I I'm performed motherhood, basically. And he went on to say he's like, it doesn't matter. Because you're the mother, she has let go of this idea of being a good mother or a bad mother. Those are just constructs, no matter what, your her mother. So that's all you can do is just be that. And I was still quite pissed off at the moment, like feeling really misunderstood. But those were some of the like, wisest words that really took a bit to seep in, but became that place not only in motherhood, did I start to let go of this idea that I needed to perform something so well, that I could really just be me and get really curious about who I was never given any given moment. And just kind of yeah, a lot allow myself to come out a little bit more in ways that before becoming a mom, I don't think I even really had the awareness of how much I think I was holding back and meeting others validation. Hmm, it's very good. Tasha, I love it. I love when you talk about containing multitudes. Because I think it's something that we often think it's either A or B, right? And it's like, no, it's a and b, c, and d, so many. For me, my creative energy comes from dance. So I've always been a dancer, there's a running joke in my family that I can dance before I could walk. And I've always loved choreographing dances in my head, and I like to perform them because I don't have to worry about controlling other people in their tempo and anything. And for me, motherhood kind of felt like stepping into a dance in partnership with my child. And I was very lucky in the early phases of motherhood to have my husband who's had children before. And so he came with this very calm, reassuring energy. And I just remember feeling like I had no expectations about how anything was going to be or how anything was going to go or what it could look like, it could look like what it should look like. And it was the most freeing thing because it allowed me to really just step into that role with like, my whole heart, and really enjoy it. And then in the last couple of years, there's been a shift if this kind of sense of like, oh, there's this independence. And there's this growth for both of us. And now it's starting to feel like I can dance on my own again, a little bit more. And so that's been really nice is finding that rhythm in our lives, where it's like, I was there when I felt like I needed to be the most. And now I can look beyond that, and get excited about what the future holds. But being a mother now is so massively a part of my identity because of the work we do together. Yet. We never ever talk about parenting, our kids come up, but it's really about us and introspection and kind of what that looks like in this chapter of our lives. So there's been an evolution and for me, it didn't come with a sense of struggling against that. It came with kind of just saying, Okay, it's like it's a dance. And I think when you try to give it a little bit more ease a little bit more grace, and you don't try to control things as much. In my experience, that's kind of been that sweet spot and feeling like, oh, okay, there's a time for everything. There is not this sense of needing to know all the answers, which has been really, really nice, especially in the last little while, we've all dealt with a lot of uncertainty. So kind of not having to know everything right now. But knowing that we are there to get there, like we show up together, Tasha has this really beautiful phrase where she talks about companion plants? Tasha, could you elaborate on that, because I feel like that's what I'm trying to say. But you say much more eloquently. I have to give credit where credit is due, I was, like, just introduced, I've never gardened until I moved to an island where there's just people garden like crazy here. So I've been learning a lot. And there's a mother here in particular, I'm going to shout her out. Her name is Rachel Phillips. And if you live on Whidbey Island, you know her, she's just sunshine mother of three young boys. And she talked about the idea of companion plants, how there are certain plants that grow better next to each other. And so that's something that we together really talk about, and think about and really find to be true. And think of each other as our companion plants that when we're together, we just we get more of the nutrients we need. We exchange ideas, we exchange energy, and we just watch each other bloom, it's and it's incredible. I love that, I completely relate to that, because I my parents used to have a plant nursery, so I know all about companion planting and how, you know, you might put something next to something else, because that plant attracts the bugs away from this other one or, you know, that kind of stuff. And it's interesting hearing all your different views and the way you speak about things. And the same, this is the same for all mothers is it some people will find things really easy. And some other people, I guess, because of their the way they've been brought up or the way they've been parented find things really challenging. So being able to, you know, when Angela, you were talking about, you know, allowing things to happen and not control things I can see that would be very hard for someone like me, who likes to know what's happening next, and what's coming up next. So it's like you can bounce off each other and support each other. Yeah, that that analogy of the companion funding is really awesome. Love it. And it takes some of like, the pressure off to write, like, it all goes down boils down to like, I just kind of have to show up and do my thing. Like, you know, a plant isn't like, think about like, how am I going to do like, it just it just happens and and we we think about nature quite a bit when we're sort of, you know, exploring a lot of these ideas and concepts and just like how can we live life in a way that is generative, regenerative, you know, so that we can utilize our energies in the best ways and look to nature, you know, things go fallow, and they need to go fallow takes rest when it needs to blooms when it needs to. And there's just so much wisdom there to be drawn upon. And it's a huge source of inspiration. But it's hard to shift and do that by yourself. Right? It really, really helps to have other people who are not only walking the past, but who who who inspire you and remind you, you know that Tasha has coined a brilliant term per mama culture. Great work credit. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah. Play on the permaculture, that's brilliant. In my drain, I take a journey within. I meditate in a forest and a cheeky monkey swings in. So just like you guys to talk a bit more about, like, you've talked about things that you've done together the different sort of events, I suppose. That's the right word things that the group does. If there's someone out there that's listening, who thinks I need to know more about this? Can you share a bit more about the logistics, I suppose? Like, where do they go? What's the sort of things they're going to expect that kind of stuff? Everyone's looking at you. Oh, okay. All right, then. I'm like, I'm looking at everyone. Um, Okay, then there's many different ways and I think we're, if you want in a couple of hours, we're announcing the mommies, which is the Grammys for moms. So there's tons of free events that we'd like to just for moms who, who, sometimes it feels like too much like let's introspect, let's write, let's find out about ourselves. It's like, verily, just so we do things that feel a little bit easier to access. You. We have next is a monthly mother, the mother monthly, where you just get a taste of community, we're currently revamping current Do you want to say a little bit more about mother to Mother monthly? Because she, it was her I had, I had a feeling it put me on the spot with that. Yeah, I think mother, the mother monthly, we've just done one full year, and we're going to take a month break. And we're relaunching. And in the spirit, you know, one of the things that we wanted to do with mother, the mother monthly is build community. And so in this next iteration we're bringing more mothers on. And it's also the aspect of flying in a flock. So we can share the load a little bit more easier. Because we want to do other things as well. We're gonna have more mums. But with a previous version of mother, the mother monthly, we just kind of, I guess our tagline was like, we wanted to introduce mums who were doing cool shit. So each month we had a theme. And then we would bring on different mums. And they would talk about the topic and we would have like a movement session, then we would have more of the chance to talk it through. And then we would also have an open conversation, which was one of the most popular, I think sessions because it was just our chance to chat about things. And kind of going back to Tasha, how she was talking about nature and incorporating nature, like we followed the seasons in the northern hemisphere, so we kind of like have been wintering and resting and that and now we're kind of coming into spring again. But yeah, and also like our internal seasons was a big thing that we want to follow with mother, the mother monthly. So with the menstrual cycle in that so we're bringing all that kind of into it. I don't know if I really should talk too much about the next version of other than other months, because we're kind of finalizing a few of the details. Well, we there's a lot of virtual offerings, but we are also pivot towards, in we haven't actually met all together in 30 years of working together. So we're pivoting towards doing retreats, which we we did before. And now that COVID is opened up we have one coming up in Sweden, the summer, there'll be whipped be there's there's many things in the pipeline, but we really know how valuable and we get, you know, we give each other permission by showing up in person with each other to work on the things that are important. And reprioritize and get support. So that's that's the plan. Hope we get to listen. Yeah, I think the easiest thing is probably just to go to our website, and to subscribe to the newsletter as well. And our Instagram feed is the most up to date. And yeah, the brilliant Tasha and Anjali run that that social media side of things, and they're they're better at keeping things up to date than maybe we are on our website. And then, of course, as we've mentioned before, too, we also just published our book mother wild a book of mother's dreams, that we've worked in collaboration with nine incredible illustrators from all over the world. And we kind of like, gave him some words gave him carte blanche, like, like interpret this how you want and they came back with stuff beyond our wildest dreams. And we're really proud and excited. And we've come up Carmela who introduced a project initially and she said, You know, there's so many big heavy books which have which have of course incredible value as well. But we wanted to make something that was light and distilled in something that mothers could could read with their children. So we say it's a it's a bedtime book, designed to awaken mom was wild dreamer with ANSYS got that dual purpose there. And we're really excited. And it's been really fun to hearing back from people as it kind of opens the conversation because a lot of times it's hard to remember like, oh, yeah, what is my dream? You know, what? What would I like to do? What you know, if, if there were no limits and work from there, and yeah, it's really beautiful to watch that unfold and other women. Yeah, it's, it almost sounds like we're talking about the guilt before it almost sounds like a, like a selfish pursuit. It's like you're a mum now. You've got to do this stuff. There's no time to stop and think about what you want. What's the bigger picture for you? And it's just I think it's is a really clever idea that you can read this book with your child. They go to bed and then it's your time and you've already switched on. You know, this thinking, oh, yeah, that's right. I really wanted to do this or I really wanted to do that. So it's, it's like, right Oh, off you go. Like now it's your turn sort of thing. So it's really, really clever. I really love like, I'm so grateful that I've got my copy, like, thank you so much. Thank you, I just, it's on one hand, I don't and I don't want this to sound rude anyway, but it's, it's such a simple idea, right? It's a book the theory to children, but the outcome of it and what's contained in it is so immense and so limitless. It's just like Bravo ladies, it is amazing. That means that that means everything because you know, it's it's fun to do these projects, and it's fun to connect. But really at the heart of it what we want is just that little bit of space to open up inside a mother right like this is the most exciting trip will ever take is is internally getting to know ourselves, right? All of that other stuff is really just to facilitate that deep dive is Allison, can we ask you put you on the spot a bit? Like what's your dream? A dream? Maybe? Yeah, I would have to say the one the one where the the mums on stage. That is That is me when I saw that. I was like, Oh, that takes me back to when I was a kid and I used to pretend to be Madonna. And I Yes. We have Madonna fans in the group. There's a lot of enthusiasm here. Yeah. So this is my like I was born in 78. So I might be you know, a little bit older than you ladies. I'm not sure. But I used to have the old hairspray Ken and I used to pretend I was on stage and then I used to pretend I was getting an award so I'd have my my speech for collecting my Grammy or whatever. I don't think I knew about the Grammys then when I was a kid but no, that was my thing. So yeah, that's me on say doing my thing. Oh, I love it. Brilliant. Well, you're an incredible singer. I got to hear a little bit of your stuff before you're amazing. I'm glad we did. That was going to be the cut off dream we were we were on the fence on keeping it or not. So we were really lucky that you resonate. And you are invited to the to the mommies in a couple of hours you you can get your Madonna Grammy award award your mana? Madonna Madonna. Yeah. In my dream, I stand on stage. The band's lifts me up as I sing out my rage. Are you ready? Current said, because, you know, at some point, you go down this like rabbit hole of like, what makes a successful book? And do we want to go into the children's category? And then we do should we pitch it and then you know, then you go down. They're like, oh, we need this many followers. And we need to have this impact. And we need to sell this many copies. And we need to do all this promotion where like, Does this feel right to us? And we're like, no backtrack back. And Karen said a sentence she's like, we can measure our impact by how I can't remember the exact words you use car and maybe you remember better. But it was something like we can we can measure our success by the impact of like that space that mothers open up within and it can be just one mother it can be it doesn't have to be numbers. As long as we've connected with a handful of others along the way, I think that we will feel successful, quote unquote. Yeah, Karen, did you Karen sorry. Did you want to add to that, too? And I just Yeah, I guess just reiterating that. Like, I think that's a big drive. And you know, like, we yeah, we've kind of learned and I think especially through mother, the mother monthly that it feels more organic and it feels authentic. And it feels better for us when we actually have connection. And it's you know, we don't we're not so concerned about the big reach, we want it to just be meaningful. Like that. That's the bigger driver. And yeah, and I think that was really nice. Like we through this whole process. We kept coming back together and just reevaluating, and Angelique kind of briefly mentioned their core principles like you know, and one of the core principles there was the dancing the laying down and that but was keeping shit simple. And so each time we kind of get when into that masculine energy, where we really started to think about, you know, those key markers that we should hit and what we should do and how we need to get, you know, all this done. We were like, Nah, that doesn't feel good. You know, like, and it's a passion. You know, this is a big passion for all of us. And we don't want to do it, if it doesn't feel good, even though sometimes it's hard. You know, like, at the end of the day, like it brings us all joy. And yeah, we've got to do it in a way that's authentic to us. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, there's a difference. When you say it's hard. There's a difference between hard work and you know, having to get something done, then actually going against what you genuinely believe, and makes you feel uncomfortable when you start seeping into that. areas that you might think like you said, it's just doesn't feel right for us. So yeah, you've honored that which is really commendable. There's something that I've, it's really interesting, when I talk to moms, I get things tend to go in cycles. So the last thing for interviews I've had, have all talked about this concept of value, and what how society places value on things. And this monetary idea that especially with creatives, you're not creating things to go out and kill a lot of, you know, some are making their business and their livelihood to sell them. You're creating because it's something that is meaningful for you. And you're sharing, again, that connection with people. And I think what we've sort of got to what we've come to the conclusion and feel free to share your thoughts on this, that this, I guess the patriarchal world values, you know, money, if you can earn money from something, there's a higher value on that than if you can't. Everyone was nodding then so I'm really keen to hear what he's got to say. wants to jump in? Everyone's go cool. No, it's really interesting, because I'm not gonna say anything about this topic. Particularly, I'm gonna let someone else dive in. But you should see us on a call. So we're like, talking over each other. We're also excited. And it's, it's kind of interesting to watch us all be polite, and wait for the other person to go first. But I see Carmela is unmuted. So I will let her lead the way on from from a zoom out perspective, we run this Whatsapp group that's called the glow mama village. And one of the girls shared this talk that's happening, and it's all about these really smart people. Harvard educated and, and not and, and celebrities and non celebrities, but who are talking about how can we leverage compassion, humility, and connectedness in our cultures? Rather, I think we're all shifting away from the what's the word I'm you, corporation, there's a word, someone helped me out, I'm having a complete brand capitalism, capitalism. Thank you, please. But we're still we're still we're still in it. And so it does break my heart a little bit to be completely transparent. When I see moms put a lot of effort and a lot of their time and you know, at the cost of not being with their children or doing a job that would give them a high salary, when it's not financially rewarded. Because then they don't value the work. And then they'll take on jobs that might not be as fulfilling, but that will pay the bills. And so to me, there's this like, fine balance of like, how can it? How can we value what we do and put up because No, but yeah, it was interesting, when we started putting a price tag to what we were doing, people would value what we were doing more to so it's a learning experience. And I would love to do it for free for the rest of my life, if I could, but it doesn't serve anyone doing that. And so there's there's this fine line of how can we make it sustainable? And we have to feed ourselves to from it and value of what we're doing. And yet, yeah, not only not not letting that monetary value be our only sense of value. Does anyone else have something else. I also wanted to add that Tasha discovered and shared this great website, which is called bill the patriarchy.com. And it's really, really an interesting way of looking at all the things that mothers and caregivers do. And what that would be worth if you chose the hourly wage that corresponds with what you believe you should be paid for. And I will say when we started our Kickstarter campaign, we had a millionaire by the way on Julian, if I remember correctly, right. Oh, yeah. In two years, I think I made a million if I didn't have to pay taxes, so before taxes, so I know it's interesting, right? We talk about the invisible load and all the emotional labor that goes into raising our child During and I think because a lot of us do it with love. It doesn't also mean that our time isn't valuable. So that's also one of our, our things that we looked at when we were doing our Kickstarter campaign, it was really exciting to see all the support flood behind us. And for us, it wasn't necessarily, even though the Kickstarter was fundraising, it also showed us the greater interest in the project we were doing, which meant we had traction and what we were pouring our hearts into, was something that people were excited about and interested in. So I think that was probably the better payoff. At the end of the day, wasn't the financial it was the sense of like, yeah, you're on the right path. And, and there's people out there who believe in what you're doing. So we felt pretty grateful and pretty energized after that. Absolutely. Hugely validating you know, you've got that, that collective energy behind you of people mums want this, they need this, you know, I think, for me, like and that just remind me about the Kickstarter campaign, like I still and I know you ladies do to the Kickstarter video, like, it makes me cry, and the amount of people who like watched it, and well, you know, like, teared up over it, it really had, like, it hit a nerve for a lot of people. I feel like I need to go watch it. Now. I really wish I had found you guys back then. Because I would love to have contributed to it, too. It's like, and I'm so glad you found me too. Yeah, but this is like this is yeah, it has how incredible that we found each other, you know, like these, these little zeros see, to be like, Okay, I'm going to take a leap, and I'm going to start a podcast, and I'm going to kind of put myself out there. And I'm sure along the way, you've just listened to, like incredible women that you've met along the way. And you know, you can't always measure exactly the impact, right? But there's this sort of trust, knowing that if I show if you show up with integrity, and and from a place of like i Yes, it's it's incredible to build and to grow and to be validated, you know, in that sense, but really, at the end of the day, like you're having these conversations that have this rippling effect where you don't exactly know where it's going to end up. Yeah, but you also kind of like, you have to release that too, right? I think Elizabeth, is it Elizabeth Gilbert for one of one of the ones that we refer to a lot, just kind of, maybe not even her but like talks about this idea of like, you pour all of this energy into creating into making something great, but then it's kind of like birth to you know, we might have this idea before we have children that like we're gonna mold and educate and make these people but really, they, they are who they are, right, it's our job then to just kind of help support their unfolding. And I feel like with creative projects, which again, can be so many looks so many ways, right? I feel like every, every mother is creative, like it's just, it's there every Yeah. But um, it's kind of like, you have to release the attachment, you know, or I'll see we'll just eat ourselves alive. And again, same in motherhood, if I am so attached to the outcome of how what my child is going to do, I will drive myself crazy. And that doesn't belong to me. And I think there's, it can be really helpful to have people in community who can remind you that because it's quite vulnerable, right? Like we want to be accepted. I want things to have in the intended impact. We want things you know, to be well received, and it's natural to want to feel validated. But But that can't be the only currency there. Right. Is other people's validation? Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I also name and it's really nice to have the support within this group. Because I think if we were each going at a project alone, we'd probably be wandering and having doubts from time to time, like, are we going about this the right way, like you're trying your best to chart your own course. But sometimes if you don't fit in the mold that's been said, it can feel a little bit unstable. And I noticed one of your questions you had about the podcast was about support. And I think that that's been one of the best things is we all feel like we can go farther together. Because we were kind of creating this new paradigm together. We all agree on it and we're not afraid to try it out. And kind of recognize like Really what is our intention? Each step along the way, whether we're hosting a virtual retreat or whether we're launching our book? What what did these goals actually mean to us? What do we want to see come out of this and the community that we've built so far, I would venture to say, to me feels like our greatest achievement. You know, and that's not something you hear all the time. Usually, it's measured in other ways. But I think for us, genuinely, we feel like that's been one of the greatest thing. That's things that's come out of this. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Angelina, it makes me think to, you know, the idea of like, a rising tide lifts all boats. And like, yeah, the most valuable thing will be, you know, not the money that somebody might have spent to, to join our monthly community for the month. But maybe six months down the line, we're seeing all of these mothers like, like not only starting to write this incredible stuff, but share it. And that's only going to impact people in their sphere in their sphere, that there's really like this incredible expression that's coming out in different ways. And also, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Right? Like, we can be proud and excited that we're able to sustain a business that's able to, you know, receive, like, financial compensation for the hours we put in. And also hold that the most valuable thing to us is watching mother's shine, like both are both are true. And we like want it also, I think, for me is made me really value and actively seek out ways that I can support other mothers and that that pursuit as well. Yeah, when we talk about community, I write lots of notes when I've speak to my guests. And I've written intense support, and I've put it in a big circle. And that's that is the vibe that I'm getting from you ladies today. It's is that incredible support for each other, which is just awesome to see. And awesome to be in a little group with today. It's just so uplifting. Happy to be your first group interview, by the way. You've done an amazing job in my dream, I go for a deep dive. The magic of the ocean makes me feel alive but I think that's what we feel like with all the things we do as well like with mother the mother monthly, especially like because we brought we brought on other speakers in the last one year and I'm like, wow, like, they we had to meet the most amazing people we learn so much. You know, we build this community. But yeah, I yeah, I think and we all like it's a ripple. For me, it's a ripple effect. Like I feel like the core principle of really begging the shit out of each other and like absolutely adoring each other, like, just makes me want to go do that everywhere in the world. You know, like, it just kind of ripples all out. And you know, like, especially, and our focus, of course is moms but it's everyone but you know, like I really feel like that when I meet a new mom. I'm like, oh, okay, like, how can I how can I help like what can I do and it's gets me excited. But I did want to give it just a shout out that Carmela really is the the glitter we refer to her as the glitter glue that brings us all together. And just to kind of come back to that again that like none of this would have happened and I can see your grown without you guys, it would just have remained an idea that I wanted to thank you because this is officially the first podcast I'm doing. We were all on it. We had our first friend do your podcast and my battery ran out and I basically took 30 minutes to come back on and I missed the whole thing. So this is officially my first podcast. Thank you for hosting us. delightful conversation. I do have to head and help my kids with breakfast and getting them to the bus but um, thank you for having us and absolute pleasure. And you're invited to the mommy's Awesome. Thank you. We're excited Can I just ask? I watched this amazing movie yesterday. I want to know Is anyone else seen the movie called The lost daughter on Netflix exec came up on our global mama village. Yeah, it's, it's, it's good. It's It's, yeah. It's like this. It's like you're taught it's, I don't know, it's like, all of a sudden, it's like this massive taboo subject has just got a huge audience. And it's amazing. Like, when when the girl, the one that shouldn't give things away the one with the big hat. I can't remember a name now. Yeah, she said to the lake later, is it later, I couldn't remember her name was later or later. But when she said to her, how did you feel when you're away from your children? I actually said, we spoke amazing, because I knew she was just and then when she said whatever she said was fantastic. Whatever I thought I was, it's just groundbreaking, isn't it to have something like that set out in public? It's like, Ah, I was just blown away by it. I just hope that it gets so much publicity and traction, and so many people say it, I just think it's amazing. So amazing. I think it's, you know, yeah, I think it's great, because it's it shone the light on that. And but you know, of course, there are such mixed reviews, if you've kind of gone down that rabbit hole of reading what people say about it. But it's we did taboo as a topic, and other than other monthly and it was the most popular month, like people want to talk about these topics. Yeah. What do you think that says about? Society? It's just, they're not ready for stuff yet that, you know, a portion of us are ready to talk about things and other people are catching up? Or is it a divide in an unknown generations? What do you reckon? I think that we've for so long, stripped mothers of their humanity, right, and the way that they're portrayed, and also what we expect, like love is supposed to have a child is supposed to then compensate for all of these other things. And we we live in, in societies where mothers are grossly under supported and, and every sense and the demands are massive. And yeah, there's the there's no space, in a lot of instances for mothers to really feel the whole breadth of their humanity. So I think that makes people largely uncomfortable, because you have to, like, reconcile that fact that women are mothers or are humans, again, to bring up Elizabeth Gilbert, and she's not a mother herself. Maybe I'll look for this. But she wrote this Instagram or Facebook posts a couple years ago called Mercy on the mothers. And it's absolutely beautiful. And it's a, you know, a paragraph or so. And she's just basically saying, what could happen if just for one moment, we could just give mothers grace, like maybe, you know, maybe they had mental health issues, maybe they were really tired. Maybe they battled addiction, maybe they just needed time for their selves, and on and on and on. But what if just for a moment, we suspend a judgment, and we just kind of allowed for them to be human. And it was so deeply moving. And validating not only as a mother myself, but I think also for me to look at my own relation with my mom and generations and generations and generations and really sort of feel the gravity of what happens when we took this whole, essential, valuable, you know, swath of society and, and actually looked at them as real people. It's incredibly moving. It is it's so profound. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll look for it really quickly, because I think it's Yeah, go for it. And isn't that amazing, though, for not a non mother to say that like, that's like, yeah, she's got an incredible insight, obviously You know, life somewhere. That's, that's what's going on. She was also, you know, and I feel like it was an maybe an a big magic book, I can't remember which one, but she talks about how her parents went off and did their own thing. And that kind of, you know, like, her parents were busy leading their own lives. And she didn't look at that as something as a negative, but I think it's an inspiration for her, you know, pursuing what she wanted to pursue? Yeah, that's pretty powerful, isn't it? Yeah, I can't help but feel so moved by the idea that mother's living out their own lives is a healing of what we've been taught for so long, which is that you should be a martyr. And that the unsaid words are, your needs don't matter as much as your child or spouses or society's opinion of you. And so, to me, when we bring up this topic of mother's dreams, it just feels like there's something really special there that we want to hold space for. Yeah, it feels like a healing for me. Yeah, yeah. I love it through that lens. Anjali, that's really true. Because I oftentimes think of, I guess, maybe this is true of every generations, here we are living, right. We're really like the bridge between past and future. And for so many mothers, of course, fewer and fewer opportunities for them, but really fewer resources, and to be able to openly talk about these things at once we can shed light on it, and we can process it right, then we can allow for it. And of course, you know, so much of the work that we do today around this, maybe we won't feel we feel we feel benefit for sure. But really, it's going to be future generations that that, you know, really can move forward from this place. But yeah, but every time I take time for myself, every time I you know, check in with me every time my mother, the mother, really, really look at that. It's it's a healing not only for me, but for all of us. That CDs, and it's that it's that ripple in the pond. And it is, yeah, it flows out. And that's something that a lot, I would say, every mum that I talked to on my podcast, is a question that I asked them is that it isn't important to you to be. And I put this in air quotes more than a mum, because there's nothing wrong with I mean, that statement to me just sounds wrong anyway. I don't even know why I would like that. But that's the gist of it, like more than the parenting role, the mothering role, and everybody says, yes, it's so important that another way that someone described it to me recently was that they were an artist before they had children, and they were an artist, even before they met their partner. And that all of a sudden, when they actually had a child, why was that going to go away? You know? Why? Why is there an expectation that what you've been for your whole life is all of a sudden going to change in the blink of an eye? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I love that, because that's really acknowledging the fact that it's not that, you know, mothers weren't all of these other things weren't more than mothers for generations. And still today, but that they were having to basically cut themselves off of, like parts of themselves off right to suppress them to, to disengage or disconnect from them. And that it was always there. Yeah, that's, you know, what you said, you said something before, that you're expanding as a person, you're not giving something up. And I feel like, that's what has happened for moms for so long. And still does happen. But I think the way that we're talking about it now, you're sort of giving yourself that validation and permission to go, oh, hang on a sec. That's not actually what I want to do. And there's people there to support me in in the way I want to live my life, I suppose. Yeah. So good. Just as a side note, Angelique, just message to say her Internet has crashed. I wondered where she taught. All right. Well, look, I think I'll let you ladies go. Now. We've had a wonderful chat today. I've thoroughly enjoyed meeting you all and share the space this morning. It's been so much fun. It has this is why we love doing this, like energized after this. Yeah. I feel you feel like you could take on the world now. But can you imagine we always share the quote too. I think it was Jana Romer, who we heard this, like a well rested woman is a dangerous woman, right? Because we love but can you think of like, if every mother had some ounce of this every you know, in her day, not every moment is meant to feel like we're all feeling right now. And that's okay. Like we're here to invite all of the challenging difficult parts of life to there is we need those right? And also, if every woman, every mother could could could feel this, like, what you can't help but think, how the world would shift. You know? Let's with that energy, can I before we go, just to read to you because I think it's a beautiful monastery. Only two, but just that quick mercy on the mothers because I just I go back to this all the time. It says Dear ones, recently I was at a conference where the question was asked how many of you are afraid of turning into your mother, nearly everyone in the room stood up. This made my heart ache. My heart ached, not only for, for the people in the room who were all beautiful, creative, imaginative and wonderful human beings. It made my heart hurt for their mothers who will never be stopped, stopped being judged as failures. Because oh my god, we never stopped blaming the mothers do we? How many years? How many dollars? How much energy have we all spent as a culture talking about how mothers have failed us? What I want to say today is can we take a break just for one day, and show some mercy to the mothers? Because being a mother is impossible, and I don't mean that it's difficult, I mean, it is impossible. What we as a culture expect from our mothers is merely that they cannot be human. Mothers are meant to be some combination of Mother Mary, Mother, Teresa, Superwoman, and Gaia. It is merciless standard of perfection, merciless. God help your mother if she had ever fell short. God help your mother if she was exhausted and overwhelmed. God help her if she didn't understand her kids, God help her if she had no gift for raising children. God help her if she had desires and longings. God help her if she was ever terrified, suicidal, hopeless, bored, confused, furious. God help her if life had disappointed her. God help her if she had an addiction or mental illness. God help her if she ever broke down, God help her it couldn't if she couldn't control her rage. God help her because she fucked up. And if she fucked up in any way, she will forever be branded bad mother. And we will never forgive her for this. So this is my question. Can we take a break today from judging the mothers and show them mercy instead? This doesn't mean that what happened to you at the hands of your mother was okay. This doesn't mean that any pain you have is not real. It just means that maybe her pain was real, too. And if you are yourself a mother, and you never stop judging yourself for how you are failing, can you let it go for one day? Just for one day? Can you drop the knife that you're holding to your own throat? Mercy just for one day? Let us find mercy, mercy on you. Mercy on everyone mercy on the mothers? So have that same feeling to that last question. Like me? I'm like caring for right now. Oh, my God, that is so true. And I really don't and, you know, I know we're gonna call me now. But we talk about this construct of good mother bad mother. And of course, we all want to come to this as our best healthiest self. Right? And that is a practice to do and there's ingredients we need to get there. But at the same time, like this idea of a bad mother of failing our children are you know, I don't think mothers any mothers really failing, I think that they some that are more under resourced than others. I think I love I think Glennon Doyle always says, you know, there's no such thing as other people's children. And I don't just take that as a sense of like, having responsibility for the collective well being of kids everywhere, but also that society also has responsibility and benefit from seeing to the well being of my children as well. Right. Like, I don't think mothers have failed I think society's failed mothers. And there's a bit of an internet like a revolution that little ripple when we say like what I have to say no matter what I feel what I need to express what I need to create, because it makes me feel alive. Like that's not nothing, right? That's everything. That's yeah, I'll send it to you. That's my goal. I go back to that all the time. Kissing like yeah, Oh that's so powerful oh man can we do this to me continue all look Thank you I've had such a wonderful time thank you to all the best with it all and and I'll put the links in the show notes where they can find your amazing website we are mother wild and yet all the best with the book as much as I thank you so much. And by the way, Allison like congratulations and thank you for this incredible space that you've cultivated like it's amazing be able to go through you know, your list of apps, I think it was 35 I feel like I can't remember the exact numbers. And I'm just like the cloud every conversation is so rich and and that it has it means so much so to the thank you and for giving us like the space to be able to share and hopefully connect with. With more moms. It's so valuable. Oh, thank you. No, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Bianca Richardson Australian illustrator, watercolourist and graphic designer S1 Ep22 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Bianca Richardson is an illustrator, watercolour artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier South Australia and mum of 2. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business, creating websites, logos and branding for clients, Bianca has maintained her own art practice, her favourite mediums being watercolour, ink and pencils as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog "Just Draw More Bianca" was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself, to just keep drawing! Her fun spark and humour shines through to this day with this name remaining as her online identity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety** Connect with Bianca on her website and instagram Follow along with The Portrait Project Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity for day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram and to get in touch with the podcast. All music used on this podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respect to the relationship that traditional owners have with this land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. My guest today is Bianca Richardson. Bianca is an illustrator, watercolor artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business creating websites logos and branding for her clients. Bianca has maintained her own art practice over the years, her favorite mediums being watercolor, ink, and paint shows as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog, just draw more Bianca was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself to just keep drawing her fun spark and humor shines through to this day, with this name remaining as her online identity. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast. Bianca Richardson. Thank you so much for coming on, Bianca. Thanks for having me, Alison. It's a pleasure. You're an illustrator and a graphic designer. How did you first get into that sort of creativity? When I was in high school, I guess I always loved drawing illustrating, and I, you know, ideally, I think I wanted to always be an illustrator, but I found that graphic design was the career I could follow up with those kinds of skills, and then maybe potentially look at illustration later on like I am. Now. I studied multimedia. So that was like a mix of like websites and a bit of animation and video and design work as well. So that's fell into that kind of career path. Like I had a few mentors in that field that, you know, inspired me and I took that on. And I've loved it, like graphic design has been great. But I've always had that urge to draw, like, I really enjoy drawing, I get a lot of satisfaction out of people enjoying my drawing. And I think the big turning point was in 2010 I started a blog just to keep myself going it was like a Blogspot blog just drove all the anchor I called it just to keep myself going. They had there's a project called illustration Friday that every Friday they'll bring out a topic and you draw anything based on that topic it was a really cool community. So I got into I get into that and then just sort of snowballed from it like I had I sort of have graphic design and separate am I drawing blog was separate two separate things. And then I think more so about four or five years ago clients started seeing my drawing work and wanting that included in the designers that kind of merged more there so slowly happened like it was a real slow burn it still isn't slaving but people wanting my art more than my graphic design lately is that that's that's really cool. Yeah. Touching on your the name that you that you give yourself just your more Bianca is that sort of like a message to yourself like I can't let it go now. I love it. Like I kept thinking I'll change my name because gone to my own name, but I'm like, I just love this. It's just so honest. Like that's what it was for me in 2010. And it still is now so just drum all the anchor. Did that sort of tie into any particular period in your life? Where was it around being a mum or? Yeah, was there any trigger for that that you you wanted to encourage yourself to draw more? No, it was pretty kids. My husband was mad about triathlons and Ironman at the time. So we started to blogs he was because because everyone kept asking us like how is Toby going with this training? So I had a blog how is Toby going? And it's brilliant. That's true. We go let's just check that little life stock of personality and humor like that, that interests me like I'm very I'm not. I'm not clean cut professional. Or be dork. I love that. I'm sure they'd be Yeah, there'd be plenty of people out there. You know that want you services that would be the same that bit of quirkiness that you know bit of fun and yeah, yeah, so really, yeah. relate to a lot of people I think what sort of mediums do you work in with you? I like good. pencils like regular pencils. Ink I love kind of ink. I love watercolor. More so the last few years I've really gotten into using procreate on my iPad. Like it's it's been convenient because I can take it anywhere. And it's lit up so I can do it at night. Once the kids go to bed. I can sit on the couch and coloring I can it's yeah, it's been really good for my lifestyle at the moment. I still like hand drawn with I love to actually draw on paper first and then transfer it across the iPad. And then color so it's a meet it's mixed radio, I guess is the classic term for let's launch it and talk about your family then you mentioned you you're able to do your procreate when the kids are in bed. How many children do you have? So I have two kids. I've got an eight year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. So bit of a gap between the two. I don't sleep that great. I don't really do that much work at night. But I like the idea of it. I think I use my iPad more driving around town for a daytime nap with my son out of pocket around the lake and get it out and do some coloring in. Yeah. My siblings were all five to six years apart. And like, I'm someone that needs my own space a lot. So I found like, I love the time my kids but I could my brain would explode if I had kids too close. I think I just I really Yeah, I I need my own time and I need sleep to be a better person. So yeah, please to the beautiful kids. I love them. It's a perfect fit for me. Yeah, good. Yeah. No sleep sleeps good sleeps important. So were you able to keep up with that after the birth of your first child? I was a bit of an idiot when I was lecturing at TAFE when I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was doing a semester so I decided to do one term before I had her and a term after thinking well, I'll be able to balance this out. I've done it. There's only six hours a week but my gosh, I went back when she was five or six weeks old. Three hour sessions and it was so hard like you know you breastfeeding so it's painful words your brain you have no brain it's just the mashed potato like it was just it was madness but in my head I had this idea that I've read all the books I'm at a pretty stable point in my life I'll be I'll be able to do all this and yeah, it was a massive Eye Opener it's one of those things you can't you can't really prepare yourself for Isn't it like like I said you can read the books but when you're actually in it, it's like it no one can even warn you about it because you take relief those books are a waste of time what those are very good burst skills or something. I had all these ideas like I'll take my stressful when I would take all these little things like I just lost. After you did that the summit stir when you returned back to TAFE were you sort of were you working on your own art as well at that time, or just focusing on your teaching? I did, I actually produced the calendar, like I was doing little desktop calendars. So I've managed to she was born in September, so I managed to get one out for Christmas time, which was pretty amazing. I had her laying on the floor in the office. I tried to do a little bit so I just think it helped my brain even though coming back from having a kid or having both times to get a computer and like, I don't know what to do anything anymore. Like, you know what form I can't remember anything like it takes me way longer than what it should it's just like becoming a new person again, it's really it's a really weird feeling. Just feel brand new. So did you run it? Sort of important then to get back into doing stuff for yourself? Was that something that that you wanted to do? You were focusing on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess growing up like I drew that was my thing, just my time out my relaxing thing to do. So I need it in my life. Like I find if I don't even just a little quick sketching session. It's just something to get out. If I really feel wound up or don't move away. I need I need to use it like it's it's just my my time. And as clearly that my daughter is quite creative. So when she was young, she was always wanting to do stuff with me would collaborate and paint paper and collage stuff. And so fun. And like even now, Ultra, I'll be doing a client job. Normally, I've left it out on the table, and she'll come by and draw a picture next to me. Just this is excellent. Oh, God. Actually, I think I saw that on Instagram the other day that you posted something you're working on. And then there was your daughter's picture. That's wonderful, isn't it? And it's like she's seeking it out from you. It's like you're not. I mean, I know you would do it. But you're not saying Come on, come and do this. It's like she's actually you know, she's the one instigating it. So that's really lovely. Yeah. What about sorry, God. But I was glad to have a creative kid. Yeah. What about your other little one? Hey, likes to join in. So we'll get the day we painted baubles for the Christmas tree. We do a lot of bits and pieces. But I remember a few a few months ago my daughter had gone to the dentist has had a procedure coming up she was nervous about so she ended up drawing a picture of her mouth that was open with teeth and other dentists instruments just for her to cope with it. Oh, no, that was really clever way about using art to deal with feelings. And then my son comes along and he liked it it was a dental instruments that she designed just you know, his mouth just seemed great. But how mature is that though? Like she's got a real gift, hasn't she? That's what she does. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty special to you what is your day to day sort of art life or artwork? Clients? How does that sort of look today? As you as you move through each day, I majority of my work at the moment is my design work. I have a couple of days of daycare. So that was really good. I was really funny about daycare. My first I just found I was scared of the germs. I was scared of everything. So she did family daycare this time around. I was working in that and it was just mental because I still have to do school pickup. So there was like I had to have a nap by certain time to get working. And it was very, very, very, just it was silly, but I've had my son in daycare or childcare this year, and it's for two days. Wagan it's been so helpful. Like, even though today I left him and he's upset, which is sucky, but it just helps. I don't know like I've got a block of time now to work. So I do majority graphic design work. I still try and fit in my illustrations at the moment, the Christmas coming up and doing a lot of help home portrait commissions. That's my little outlet, the art is good. And I get enough satisfaction by doing people's memories at the moment that I've built. I've got a fix in my illustration fix going on. Yeah, I got like some other projects in line with April, Hague set up this portrait project that I'm part of, for the next six months with a group of like, 10 other women and I just signed up to that I thought, you know, I need just good to learn new things and meet new people. And yeah, out of my comfort zone. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I was actually chatting to Julia, yesterday, we recorded her podcast, and she was telling me about it. And I thought that sounds amazing. Because it's gonna be, it's gonna be incredible for people like Julia said, she doesn't paint portrait, so it's going to be challenging for her put her out of her comfort zone. And it's okay, it's going to be amazing to see everyone's different styles and everyone's take everybody's take on on everybody else as well. But I did put out to receive how you're gonna feel about having your head out in the world. Yeah. That's a bit confronting, sort of, do you feel better? Are you okay with that? I do. I'm very, I wasn't very self conscious person. I guess I'm working on it. So I'm trying to be like, oh, like I'm choosing I think, to do myself. So it'd be an exploration of myself. So I can just extract as I want. Yeah, I'm looking like you might look like nothing. Someone completely did. The back of my head. Hey, that's cool. Yeah, there you go. We find it's really it's really out of the comfort zone. But there's no undo button when I'm, I don't just do a painting. So it's gonna be fun. That's really exciting. It was amazing models in the group to like, it's yeah, you're working alongside some really, really talented people. So there's heaps to learn? Yeah. Do you get daunted at all by that? Or do you just straight out see it as just an email? I was like, I went and spoke to Juliana, like, I don't know, like, I'm not an artist. I felt like she was like your dig? For me, and I'm like, what about that to lose? Like, she's asked me, I'm just like, yeah, that's, you know, I've always just downplaying myself, I was like, Oh, you just do you know, but I enjoy that that sort of is a fine artists all look good for you. I'm, that's, I'm really pleased you're doing it. Because like, personally, I like I love your style of drawing. And I think that's the thing with that, like, there's so many different styles and so many different ways of representing things. And like, this is something I'm learning to, as I go go through this project, just sit, you can do whatever you want. You know, like, there's no, there's no limits on stuff. And it's so liberating and, and amazing. So yeah, no, I'm glad you're doing it. Like I like to say I can't wait to see everybody's it's gonna be awesome. Because I do follow you on Instagram, I see the houses pop up. When someone gives you a photo of a house, it's obviously special to them. Do you sort of take that take that on board? You know, when you're, when you're illustrating? Does that sort of seep into you a bit that emotion and the connection? Yeah, absolutely. And I try and ask them things that make that home the home. Like, if you're taking a photo that's recent, it won't have things that they you know, the special flower or there was a special chair at the front or you know, there's a bird that regularly visits like all those things. Make it the home. Yeah, so I'm doing now at the moment, there's heaps of like, I'm actually doing one that's the 70s home in Queensland. So they're going back over old photos and doing the home back in the day and it's really cool. I just, I love hearing people's memories. Like I don't know, I really it's fulfilling so I'm, yeah, I'm gonna really focus next year on pushing it a bit more on getting a website that's up just years kind of fell in my lap at the moment. We're not feeling like I've worked for it, but it's like I haven't quite streamlined yet, but I will focus on that next year. Yeah, really? really love it like a lot of sense that satisfaction out of it. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally relate to that. I think it's it's really special and then I guess the people couldn't appreciate that the amount of work that's gone in not just the the physical drawing of the work but you know the effort that you've put into it to find out these other details and yeah, it's really special. Yeah, make sure no one requests horses in this table over this just have to like swishing that's really cool Do you have family around you in the mail? Like, do you have support, you know, down at Millison, or, you know, people around you that can can help you when you, you're trying to get work done. And, you know, you just need the kids out to be here. My family, my parents are still in Millison. And my in laws live in medical area, and my sister lives in the area. So I call on all them a lot. And lately, I've got a lot to just because it's coming close to the deadline time for the year. But they're all really helpful. But I'm very, very lucky to have a support network like I do. And I've got a good relationship with my mom and sister that I you know, I asked them everything, anything, you know, it's, it's good, it's really helpful. And my sister actually, she had her first child 13 days after I had my second and we've like, got, you know what it's like we forget everything about having a baby, that she's been really helpful, which is actually a good I didn't have a mother's group again, the second time around, she was a good friendship for me to have because you just become lost again, like you're going back. You're my other friends have all had their second kid or whatever, or no kids and they're just, you know, at that level, we're all going back to newborn land. They're having my sister was so helpful. Celia, she's still reminds me of things. I just overlooked, I guess. That's about 10 of us, we still catch up where we can like they really were just good people. You're like me because I would wrap up to a mother's group. And I had to go to TAFE after the lecture, so I'd be all dressed up ready to go to TAFE which is like you just looked like you had your life so together like that's funny that's heavy and honestly I just shit scared like what am I doing? What am I do we have perception of me or these new mom who just had a life all sorted and was able to like rocked going to the work and it was not like that. That perceptions and interesting thing, isn't it? It's it's just you see this little snippet of someone and you think you've, you've got it all worked out. Because you only told me like a year or so ago. What that is so funny. So like, if what do you think that's the same with social media, like people say people's posts, and think, oh, wow, their life must be perfect. They look like they've got their life together. Yeah. Me when I'm feeling not great. I can't handle it. I have to go on big following moments. I just can't like I know. I know that. It's all a glossy highlight reel. But just when you're not feeling level, it's not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah, it's gonna be more. Hey, people have to be more real, like. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's like, it's like, what? What's the words? Like? It's like, Who are you trying to impress? Why do you think you have to do this? Why do you think you can be honest, and, you know, just show life as it is. And we all can go? Yeah, we agree with that. You know, it's weird. It's very odd these days anyway, because people were trying to get the most likes, so comments, so you know, views it's all about that now. It's very it's a very weird place. Like it's not just, I'm just here doing my thing. But most artists I follow are just like, I'm just gonna keep posting as I do. And it's awesome because their work is just wicked and it's normal. It's not trying to get it's not trying to you know, be viral out there for that little minute of fame like it's Yeah, download my group I think yeah, it's very genuine. Like yeah, yeah. Creating like you're not always it's not like you can have something to show every week or twice a week like they sort of want you to do is ridiculous like, you know at the moment all these homes I can't show you because their Christmas presents. Yeah have upgraded stolen I can't show because they you know early days of like some really cool stuff out because I have nothing really to show, but I'm just, you know, do what I can. Oh, yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure, I think that some people probably have to put on themselves to just be noticed. And yeah, everyone works in peaks and troughs, you'll have your moment. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? It's like some days and eight when, like, you know, goes hand in hand with your creativity, I suppose. Like, I mean, different for your situation where you actually got to work, you're doing a job. It's like, some days you would go, I don't want to do this today. I don't feel in the headspace. There's nothing creatively coming out of me. What do you do then on those days when when you do have a like a deadline? How does that sort of work? Created deadlines? Or crap? Oh, okay. Well, go go graphic designs. You just go play out for my first job out of study was working at a local magazine. So let to work really quickly. So even if i I hate being rushed, I you know, if someone says to me a sap that was like, serious, like, just, it's the worst thing to do, because you just, I can't do it quickly. But I hate that pressure. But I can do this. I just think I can do it. But you just don't get the best result. Because you can't have it all. You can't have the best product ASAP. So I still I get it done. I meet deadlines. I just might not be as satisfied as I could be. You've got to think about it a bit more. But with my permission deadlines, I've I've padded them out so much. Because you know like when you're a parent, your life's not just about you. It's about like to other people in the family, your husband as well. So it's up to you know, if one of them falls sick, that throws the whole balance out of my life, because that's what it is. So I've had it out heaps of time in between everything to make sure I can still reach the printer deadline for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. It's just yeah, you have to plan because I don't know like, so far so good. We're all healthy. But I'm always worried about sending him into Chipotle, like, oh, my gosh we're just getting tired, like the weekends are getting a bit busier. And I think last week, he just started slowly getting a bit more sad than today actually cried as I was leaving, not usually it's a bit after I leave. I know. I'll check soon on the app, and he'll be playing and hopefully okay, but yeah, it's it's hard to clear that headspace to get to work. And I find that's the hardest part, I'll feel in a slump, you'll get a copy. And then I might just try and ease into it. Like I just I lose productivity because I feel trapped for doing it. But yeah, that that's leading into the sort of mum guilt topic. How do you feel about mum guilt? Oh, it is real. It is definitely, I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing this blah, blah. And it's like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her out a lot that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own, like, where you're being critical of others, where you're like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. You can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle. to juggle isn't it? It's a constant juggle. That is, I guess that ties into the identity topic that I that I talked about, too is that you do have to have something for yourself that you're going you do. And I do like I think I worked out like I my time out when I was younger was drawing and just I was a pretty like hit in the clouds kind of kid I must always had like a little bit of anxiety. So I'll draw and chill out. Until once I became a parent and had a few other triggers in my life and I wasn't drawing as much I realized, Oh, I do carry anxiety. I just have to find my way of dealing with it because I was guest I was always able to do it myself before without having a distraction of a kid. So to me it's just a like a peaceful, peaceful place to go like I you know, I've had a pretty you know, come by in life but it just it's my little. I overthink I'm a big worrier. Like, you know, I'm petrified of my kids getting sick. I know. It's not a big deal, but for me taking my son to childcare is a sign that I can do it. So I How much of both like, yes, you can do these? Like, you know, like, there's germs, but there's not always germs. You know? Yeah, it's all those things to make me get over my fears. Yeah, I think you know, and like drawing, I don't think you could, you know, people who don't feel creative understand, but we need these don't worry, like it's just a little, you know, you need that time to just, yeah, it's good. It's like you've got, you've got yourself medicated, you know, this is your therapy to work through, you know, like you said, you know, your life, your life's great, you know, but whatever goes on between the ears is like, you have to deal with that in some way. It might not be affecting, you know, what's going on outside, in your home, everything's going great. But you've still got to sort this out for yourself. So yeah, using that as your therapy, to sort of, to give yourself a break to work through things, and then you come back fresh and ready to go again, you know, for the onslaught. Yeah. I was thinking, my major feeling sometimes of working, and art and kids. Feeling is frustration. And that's how we're thinking about it. Like, I think I was, because I get ideas and I want to act on them. Like, I'm not gonna go do this thing. You can have a whole weekend of just having an art retreat, frickin awesome. But I could ask and get that and get the sitter's and do it. But at the moment, I don't feel like I'm ready to do it. But yeah, this is finally I'm starting to do something like oh, you know, someone needs you know, it's just that flow. You don't quite get that stage as much anymore. But it's that point in my life. And I know that things change. And they'll be time and the kids don't want to talk to me for a week so we to call for me so my dad always said to me, like don't wish your life away because when we're second was a newborn. I was just like, let's just get 12 weeks. I know the first four weeks the hardest. I've countdown like eight weeks. Yeah, we're nearly there over halfway. Like, I was kind of, I was kind of wishing it away. Then I looked at my daughter because she was in reception at the time. And I'd look at it and like she has grown so much in this face. Like oh, here I am wishing this time away because I'm like, This is so hard. I just feel like a zombie then I look at her and I'm like she's changed so much like just slow down. So now I'm sort of got that you know, it's all phase I can I break it down to this is what it is like, I still am frustrated quite a lot, but I just have to Yeah. Isn't it it's like Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know how we do it. Honestly. It's just a It's screwing with your head every single day. Yeah. Sad you how you carry their sadness that you carry. Everything that's really it's really intense. Sometimes. You have a good run, you're like this is great. This is good. Yeah, to just get up and to go somewhere would be such a privilege. Like you know, I can't I get I think it was employment, that's for sure. Like my husband wanders while we get out when the dishwasher has been stacked so shapely because in the morning, then I have to then reclaim them. And I'm like, Well, this is time like in the morning. It's just like, bing bing, bing, bing. Have you brushed your teeth? You don't need any like, it's just you just the robot. I try like I try and get up earlier. I still get woken up for the night so I maximize my sleep like yeah, that's my that's what I need. Yeah, it's just it's a different life. Like as soon as you become a mom, it's just I don't know like it's a massive, massive shift in your life. You're so responsible for other people and still yourself you know, because you don't want to let yourself go when you have kids. I love how you put that I love seeing the kids be close to their family because I grew up like one side of my family's Italians is a quite a big family caught up all the time like Sunday lunches every Sunday. It was you know they did my grandparents, those family that were important to them. So yeah, I've always grown up with lots of cousins and the other side to like always close cousins as well. There had heaps of cousins and my poor kids. They've got one cousin he might give you because the rest of the Victoria is still walk away FaceTime, but it's you know, I was so grateful for the dynamic they get they get to the grandparents here at least which is good because it helps. I don't know, it's family and friends are different. It's yeah, they're very lucky. Yeah, yeah. And it's lovely to see your own parents, as grandparents. I love that. Watching my dad with my kids and thinking oh, he would have told me off for that but he's laughing Do your children influence your work at all? Yeah, they do. So when my eldest, I would always do a lot of things based on what she was learning. So I observed her in the, in the yard and she'd be wearing her like hooded towels and kids were just speaking on the painted stick. Like, we were painting the sticks. And she was like a little saucer. And it made me laugh so much. If you're a picture of her, then I'd draw a picture of her. And that point of time, we like all the questions you'd ask like, little picture, there's always speech bubbles, like we're going to Bunnings and all the random stuff. I always say. I'll just call it old memories for me. So I kind of I'm not very good at their photo albums. I've got them but I don't I find during a memory for me makes it more fun. So I'm actually my little nieces and nephews, etc. I've been drawing them at this point in their life for their birthdays. Oh, that's a little like keepsake of time for them. Yeah, that's so special. Yeah. So hope I've been, I would have to get a bit better at making people look like the people will be more I can see your real future for that. If you put that out into the world. There'll be so many people that would would pay for that for their kid. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, I find it hard because I cannot unless I know the person to helps me work out how to draw them. I find it tricky. Like I did my brother recently. And I found that hard, and he's someone that should really know how to draw. But I think about the life was pretty close. Yeah, I find that Yeah. I was like a certain kind of character. I draw like really, like long, tall, you know, big round heads. So I've got off sort of, you know, keep working on my character developments. Practicing just drawable. Do your children I mean, your daughter, does she? How does she feel about seeing yourself in those drawings? Is she get super excited? And yeah, she laughs Yeah. He or she regularly draws family pictures like and, you know, she goes through and changes their hair every year. She's a certain hairstyle. She'll draw characters like her or her makeup. She does. Yeah, it's a sort of a self. Kind of funny word. You know, that is like an exploration of yourself that you'll hear that point in time with who you are. So yeah, I think she doesn't find it embarrassing at the moment. So that's good. Yeah. That journey with a boyfriend and Darcy moon. Yeah. loves that. He loves seeing that too. Like he, he loves the art side of things like seeing the family pointing everyone out. And yeah, yeah. So hopefully I've just I'm not giving him a nod to just saying I got to be creative. So yeah, let's see, just find that see what happens. So I was doing my design work. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all very, like, clean, you know, as design is like, clean vektory style. And I had a client, male at the old jail. And she's, I was doing their branding. And then she goes to me at one point, she's like, Oh, we want to have an illustrated map down of the jail and like, okay, cool. But I kept the first few designs I was doing was just much you know, I was doing it very graphic designer, like straight lines. Is that like the ad and make it more like you're like, we love it, but we want it to be like your style. Yeah. Okay, so that make it a little bit looser, which is like no, no, no, like, oh, you watercolor stuff you do on Instagram. We love that. So next minute, I just did inky watercolor. And it's exactly what she wanted. So she sort of made me realize that it doesn't have to be two separate entities anymore. Like it's not just design and illustration that can combine. It was realized really thankful to that because I just kept sort of thinking I'll just keep drawing for my own fun. And it's not going to cross over but majority of my work now They were going off. They want the illustrative aspect in their design. So, yes, she was the defining moment, that's for sure. I think it was about four or five years ago. And grateful because he sort of pushed me. Yeah. And a lot push because males are so odd, which is awesome. Oh, yeah. She kept she kept prodding, like, Oh, like this, you know, I like to try to wake up and I'm like, yeah, right, like people want this as cool. I have a project that I can't really say much about yet. Which is very exciting, because it's something will be super interesting, a massive learning curve for me. And yeah, I'm excited about doing it and lots of fun work. So that's happening next year, I was in the early early stages of planning now, I always have side projects going on, because that's a sound my brain rolls. Like, plans one day to do some project about the buildings. I love drawing as well. So I'm just slowly working out a project plan on that and how to attack that in the future. But I just keep that to the side, just slowly chipping away while I do my design work. Excellent. And always, always drawing. Just draw more Bianca. And every time I write that I have a little I have a little moment of like, oh, you know, yes, I can't let it go. I was like, Oh, I changed it to be accurate, just boring. But I just, I can't let go of that because it's exactly how I talk and how I've talked to myself like it's, it's me, so it makes me laugh. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us at the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Lisa Sugarman US writer S2 Ep57 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Lisa Sugarman, a writer and mum of 2 grown daughters from that famous town of Salem Massachusetts, USA. Before having her children Lisa was a newspaper (news and feature) reporter, writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa was a teacher for 15 years in local school system, as a class room teacher, coach administration and one-on-one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older and she working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. in 2009 her column "It Is What it Is" became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This lead her to the opportunity to write books, full of content the helps and inspires families, and in particular mothers, and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. Let the mistakes happen and embrace them. This lead her to the radio in Boston for many years. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, suicide + the death of a parent ** Lisa lost her dad to suicide when she was 10 years old, but didn’t find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later. Now, because of that life-changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention and she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQIA+ community. She lives by the motto "It’s okay that life is messy…because we're all a work in progress." Today in addition to my regular topics, we end up talking a lot about social media, and the role it has played in creating 'helicopter parenting'. and the affects of its portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and parenting expectations. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Lisa's website / The Vomit Booth Read about the Salem Witch Trials We mention the Uvalde School shooting and The Beaumont Children Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman.I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me it really is an absolute privilege and an honor that you've chosen to listen to my podcast. My guest today is Lisa Sugarman. Lisa is a writer and a mum of two grown daughters from that very famous Town of Salem, Massachusetts in the United States. Before having a children Lisa was a newspaper, news and feature reporter writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa spent 15 years working in local schools as a classroom teacher, a coach in administration, and a one on one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older, and she was working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. In 2009 Her column it is what it is, became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This led to the opportunity to write books full of the content that helps and inspires families and in particular mothers and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. This led Lisa to host her radio show in Boston for many years. This episode contains discussion around mental health and suicide and the death of a parent. Lisa lost her dad Jim to suicide when she was 10 years old. But she didn't find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later when she was 45. Now because of that life changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention. And she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQ plus community. She lives by the motto. It's okay that life is messy, because we're all a work in progress. Today amongst the usual topics I like to discuss, we end up talking a lot about social media and the role that it's played in creating helicopter parenting, and the effective it's portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and our parenting expectations. The music you'll hear today is from my trio, LM Joe, which is made up of myself, M Anderson, my sister and her husband, John, we play new age and ambient music. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page. Alison Newman dot net slash podcast. Thanks so much for coming on today. Lisa, it's a real pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So you're in America, we're about to you. So we live about 15 miles north of Boston on the east coast of the country. And we're in this cute little, semi famous city of Salem. Wherever you might be in the world, you can recognize that name, because it's got a lot of history attached to it. So we just we just moved actually from my hometown about a mile down the road. A little a little sea coast town and the birthplace of the American Navy. We just moved out maybe nine months ago, we just our girls are grown women now and we didn't need a house in any particular neighborhood anymore. And we just kind of took advantage of the crazy real estate market and sold and moved down the road. So we're in Salem. Oh, very good. So you're getting yourself set up in that special little town is it how many people live there? Is it very big Salem? In Salem? Um, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that at this point. I know the exact population but it's a pretty densely populated city and it's it's fairly Large. So there are definitely, definitely a lot of people i We live in an area of Salem that's kind of not in the hustle, we're a little bit removed from where people who are tourists would typically come to see and everything involving the witch trials. And, you know, you know all of that history you would go maybe two or three miles away from where we are, but it's a pretty it's a pretty densely populated little city. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think that pretty much everyone that's listening, probably recognize the name and the connections and the history. Yeah. I remember reading the crucible in year 11, or 12. Yeah. Yeah, that's something like we obviously have our own sort of histories here. But we've got we've got nothing sort of along those lines. So it's really fascinating to sort of, and I don't know how much of that is really true, either. Like, is there a bit of sort of folklore that goes along with? Yeah, there's, there's, there's some lore attached to it, for sure. And it's definitely I'm sure been embellished over the years, but I think, you know, so much of it, believe it or not, is, is actually very true. And it's been very well documented. And I mean, we haven't taken the tours since I was in grade school. And we would, you know, we would always, it would always be like a little junket to Salem to, you know, kind of take advantage of all that history. That's there. So I mean, I, I know that, you know, there is there's a lot of truth, kind of woven into all of those legends as well. So it's, it's a pretty deeply historical spot with so much significance. And it's neat, especially around October, Well, depends on your perspective, if you're from here, you want to be as far away from here as possible. If you're not here, like the entire world seems to converge on Salem, for the month of October. So everybody that that I know, knows to stay far away, because it's a little chaotic. Yeah. It's also kind of cool that everyone was, would be really interesting. Living in a place like that. So tell us a little bit about yourself lay. So what you do what you've done, I guess you can expand for as long or as short as you wish. So the floor is yours. Yeah, I appreciate that. So first and foremost, I mean, I'm I'm a mom, I have two very grown daughters, my youngest just turned 22. And our oldest is turning 25 in another few weeks. So I've been at it for a while that a little motherhood game. I was a teacher in our local school system for many, many years, probably close to 15 years and wore a lot of different hats in kind of in that role was a classroom teacher was a coach worked in administration was a one on one aid supporting just individual children with special needs over the years. So I had a really, really big open wide lens to really kind of view the parent child relationship, that that whole dynamic, the way the whole family system works, the way kids are, are educated and supported. So that's kind of what tracked me over toward what I've been doing most recently, in the last decade or so. I've always been a writer. So before I had children, I was a newspaper reporter for many, many years and wrote for magazines here in the US, and this way pre pre internet and that whole explosion. And we kind of took a break, or I took a break from that and stayed home and raised our daughters. And then it's just so funny how, how things happen. So unexpectedly, like you're you're tracking in one direction, and then you get an opportunity. And it kind of puts you on a on a totally different path. And that's what happened to me. I was working in the school systems. And just for fun, I started writing again, I had never written a column in my life, I was always a news and feature reporter and I just for fun started contributing to my local paper, because I had had some pretty deep connections there when I was in college. And they're always asking, you know, these these little hometown newspapers or I was desperate for people to, you know, to give them content. So I just started writing about what I was living at the time and what I was living with parenthood. So I started writing. And little by little, it just started catching on and people started responding really well to it. And it just birthed this whole brand new career. So the column was syndicated, it's called it is what it is. And it was just syndicated throughout this media organization, it was all over the country and then it kind of, you know, by virtue of the internet, it goes all over the world. So that happened for men. I've got like 12 years 11 or 12 years I was writing the column I still do and from time to time less so because I started focusing on books. And that led me to the opportunity to write books. And I've written a few of them, parenting focused all about kind of how to embrace your perfectly imperfect, this is really the easiest way to understand it. Let the mistakes happen, embrace them, and, and really kind of find the good nuggets that are within that. And then that kind of led me to the radio, and I ended up on the radio for a couple of years here in Boston. And so it's just, it's just been this, this really cool little flow of opportunities that have all kind of centered around creating content that helps support and inspire families and in particular moms. So that's, that's kind of the long answer to the How did I get to this point? And what kind of stuff do I do? So? Yeah, I still very much enjoy writing parenting content, although I've kind of shifted my focus a little bit. And I'm doing a lot of mental health advocacy, and suicide awareness and prevention and doing a lot of speaking and, and writing about that as well. So that that's, that's all interrelated, because it really, it impacts our kids an awful lot. And, you know, it's important to start and have those conversations. So that's kind of what I'm doing now. Yeah, right. So with your books, do you sort of draw on your own personal, like things that have happened to you, things that you've learned, or, I don't know, wish you'd known that kind of stuff? Yeah, that's exactly where it comes from. That's, that's where everything, just about everything that that I've done has come from, it's all anecdotally based. So it's really just either, you know, stories and experiences from my own childhood, or from, you know, the experience of raising my own children. And all of that experience being in the school system, both in the classroom and kind of in the administration role, and working with parents and kids so closely, and I just started seeing, you know, I started seeing such a pattern with parents and with children and parents were just getting so overwhelmed by this, this invisible need to be the perfect parent to have the perfect kid to make sure that they didn't make any mistakes, to make sure that their kids never fell on their face to make sure that, you know, there was no struggle. And in doing that, and it was all based from a place of love and caring for their children. But they were absolutely crushing their kids with these crazy expectations of how they should behave and what they should accomplish and how, I guess how, just how perfect they should be. And and it was it was really debilitating. And you can see the kids being affected by that and such negative ways. Kids kids couldn't couldn't build resilience, because they couldn't do things for themselves. They weren't allowed to do things for themselves. So I just started voicing my opinion, I guess, is what you could say about how counterproductive I thought that was. And that we really need to let our kids figure it out by failing by trying one way doesn't work. You go another way and, and it just really stirred up. You know a lot in me in terms of wanting to help parents understand that they don't have to be perfectly you can give yourself permission to trump the balls. And, you know, to kind of embrace that madness because parent parenthood, like if you can't laugh at parenthood, then you're in the wrong job, you know, yeah, that's it, isn't it? I've got just after you've said that, I've got that many things I want to ask you. I've got so many questions, I can take you in lots of different directions. So I'm gonna go, let's go. I'm gonna go with so talking. I mean, the phrase that sort of comes to mind when you're talking about that, that method of parenting, that helicopter parenting where you've always got to be over the top of your kids making sure things go right. Like you said, they don't. They don't get that chance to build their resilience because they don't get the opportunity to fail and experience Is that sort of emotions and that sort of stuff? I wonder, because often we talk about different generations and how they were parented and the sort of norms that were around, then, when do you think things started to really change and become this different way of parenting? Because I remember, as a kid, you know, being allowed to go out for most of the day, ride my bike around the neighborhood, do all this sort of stuff. And now it's like, oh, no, you can't do that something will happen to you like, when did that start to change? Do you think and what might have brought about that change? You know, it's funny that you should say that because I talk about that with my daughters, what we you and I have had similar experiences. The town that I grew up in this little coastal Harbor Town, just north of Boston, a mile from where I am right now is just this little peninsula town, surrounded by a harbor, four square miles, we would get on our bikes, there were train tracks, paths all around town, where you could get to and from one end and the other and that's all we did, we would be outside until Billy Fallon's mom rang the bell or blew the slide whistle and like the whole neighborhood would scatter and go home because they knew it was time to go home. But we out for like a second the sun came up. And we'd be on the path and we'd be downtown, we'd be in the harbor, and, and my kids, my kids were bike riders, not to that same degree. But they were the kids playing manhunt. I don't know if it's manhunt is a game that that, you know, it's it's tag, it's just like, all throughout the neighborhood and in the trees and in the fields and whatnot. So it still existed when my kids were young, but I feel like I can't say that there was a catalyst, like, I don't necessarily know that I can say, okay, that at that exact time, because of that exact event, everything shifted. But I do think it was somewhere in between our generation and my children's generation, where, you know, I think, I think meet the social media influence has just brought so much fear, it's done so much good. But it's also done so much damage. And I think that, with that constant connection, and that constant flood of information, and news and, and trauma, we're all living through trauma. I mean, look, no further. I don't know if the news has arrived yet. Of what happened in Texas. Okay, so, and I'm really my heartbreaks. For you guys over there. It's just shocking. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, as as someone who taught for so many years, and as the mom of two daughters, both of whom are teachers currently. You know, it's hard, I have so many teacher friends, and just a mom, and anyone who, of course, especially as a parent, can just hear that, that situation about those those poor children and those teachers who were killed. And it's just, it's devastating. And it's like, but we the reason why I'm bringing that up is because the second that happened, the world knew about it. It was everywhere. It was on, it was buzzing on every phone and every tablet on the planet. And so everyone is sharing in that trauma, everyone is experiencing that fear. Everyone is making plans because of it to protect their children. What else can I layer around my child? How else? How better Can I bubble wrap my child and my family and my world. And so we've got those influences in ways that we never had them before. So on the one hand, having something like social media or a phone or the ability to connect with your kids, when they're off in the world, is great, because it's kind of like that umbilical cord is still partially connected. And that's a comforting feeling. But I think we've leaned too heavily into that, to the point where everything is about instant gratification now. Why is my kid not texting me back? What happened to them? Did they get hit by a car? Did they get abducted? Did they I mean, like, so I think that you know, there's a there's a good side and a bad side to this whole social media phenomenon. But I think that, that right there. If I were going to point to one thing that has really done more damage, it's that because now everyone's hearing from every possible angle in the world. What could happen to your kid if you let them out the door? Yeah, you know, and so I think because of that, we've just, maybe our generation, my generation, I guess, has just clamped down an awful lot harder. Out of fear. Yeah. Yeah, it's very fear driven, isn't it? It's that need to keep people safe or stop, stop the bad thing happening or stop them from feeling upset or bad or, you know, emotions that we see as negative or that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't want to talk about bad stuff. But as an example, there was years and years ago in Australia, there was some children abducted though, called the Beaumont children. And for years and years and years. That was like the only, I guess, episode of that nature that we all knew about it. This was back in the 60s, I think. And so you know that that thing you're saying about, we're all connected now. Any everything in anything that happens? We all hear about it. So there probably was other stuff going on, but we just didn't know about it. Yeah. So once we know about it, we'll go Oh, no. And yeah, go into that fury action. I'm glad you brought up social media, because that was something I was going to ask you about this notion of perfection, the the way that now because we see this curated version of people's lives, we not everybody, but a lot of people want to present the very best of themselves on social media, you know, which is fair enough, I suppose you want to even want to look good or whatever, but unrealistic, to the point where, you know, it's really not reflective of people's lives. And so it's giving off this false sense of perfection. So then everyone else that's consuming that information, starts to think, oh, no, I must be doing something wrong. My life doesn't look like that. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of you agree with? Oh, yeah. Not only do I Gree with it, but I talk about it, often, I write about it even more often. And I really appreciate the fact that you use the word curate, because when I do talk about it, that is always my go to word. Because that is exactly what's happening. People, people are filtering or curating the best of the best of the best. And in most cases, and I mean, you know, there, I think there's now a happy to see now that there seems to be a little bit of a shift, where people are like, No, that's bullshit. Why am I doing that? Why am I why? Why are we only putting this facade out there? It's this veneer of what's you know, of what we think people want to see or what we want to project. And I think people are getting tired of it quickly, because it's sending such a, you know, such a damaging message. And it's creating, you know, we fall as parents into such a comparison trap, and I write about this, my co author and I write a lot about this, in our most recent book, we have an entire chapter devoted to not know, not falling into this comparison trap. And I think the biggest, the biggest suck into that trap, is what we're seeing on social media, and we really can't avoid it. I mean, do you know, do you honestly also know, a human being at this stage of life that does not have some kind of a device? I mean, unless it's like a newborn. And even I think the newborns, there must be like a newborn tablet or something, right? And they give you this push on. So I mean, it's like, granted, you know, people use things to different degrees. And not everybody who has social, you know, social media is on Instagram, and not everyone is part of Facebook or not, but the majority are, and, you know, when you're in that world, it's impossible to avoid seeing what's being put out there. And when you, you look at that, and you start comparing yourself to that, it's, I don't want to use the word traumatizing because I think that that might be a little bit of a strong word to use, but it's it definitely leaves a mark on you. If you're like, Well, wait a minute, like, how come that mom of 12 children is so beautifully, like she's perfect looking and dressed, you know, dressed like to the, to the nines, and she's, you know, she's she's driving her SUV and she's got her coffee in her hand and all of her children have braids. They're all wearing dresses. She's all made up, like, like, come on, like, this is crap. Like people like you know, I know so many moms who are Like, I couldn't even like, find a robe, to put on myself to get my kid to, like, conceal my, my pajamas to drive my kid to school, you know, you know, like throwing kids into into the school, like throw an apple and a handful of Cheerios at your kid and then dump them in the car. And so it's like, we need, we need that reality check. And we need to stop comparing ourselves because it's just so toxic. And it's so unfortunate because it really I think weighs heavily on people. Even though our rational brains most of us are like, okay, come on, this is dumb. Why am I trying to compare myself to that person? My situation is different. There's this different, but it's like human nature. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing you're not when you're, you know, you're scrolling through your Instagram or your Facebook feed, you're not in, you know, switched on rational mode, you're in relaxed looking at stuff mode. So you do you use, that's your first reaction is to go to that, oh, how come? I can't do that? Or how come she can do that? Or, you know, and then yeah, you might think about it later and go, Oh, this is the list of reasons why perhaps, you know, but yeah, we will we go to it? You mentioned that you're interested in mental health issues. Do you find that that a lot of issues with around people's mental mental health comes from this kind of bombardment of social media and the comparisons and that kind of stuff? I do? I absolutely do. And, you know, again, I'm the mom of two children. And I think back to that time, which was not long ago, it was in my children's lives, when they didn't have this influence, they didn't have this gateway, into a world of other kids their age doing doing all these things. And you know, they didn't have the ability to see the, the birthday party or the bar mitzvah, or the event that they weren't invited to, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can now and, you know, they couldn't get harassed. In this way. It was like, back in the day, when you went to school and you got bullied on the playground, which was bad enough. Now, it's like, there's nowhere in the world you can't get bullied, because you've got, you know, this vehicle that allows that to happen, right in your hand all the time. So I think, again, it's like, you know, I keep using social media, and technology as kind of the catch all for why so many things have escalated. But it's in all fairness, like it is it exists and, and impacting kids mental health is definitely one our mental health to forget about just kids, but it's just as bad, you know, for us to see the, you know, the the girls trip that a whole bunch of the moms, you know, went on, and you didn't go or the big garden party that someone had or, you know, day on the boat that you weren't invited to, it's, you know, it's impossible to ignore it. I think that it depends on who you are. And it depends on how seriously you take that, being bombarded with that all the time. But, I mean, look at the suicide rates in young children right now in adolescent and teenage children. And it's startling, and it's going up. And, you know, every other day, you turn on the news, and you hear about a child who was cyber bullied, and they jumped off a bridge and you hear about a child, you know, who was shamed, you know, who was shamed because of their size? Or, you know, something, you know, that it's, there's bigotry, there's, like, every negative thing in the world can flow through your phone just as easily as every positive thing, and our kids are right there on the other side of it. So I think it's, it's absolutely had a really negative impact. And it's, it's sad. It's sad, and I don't know, you know, aside from putting things like parental controls in place, and really just understanding what your kids are looking at when you're younger kids are a part of that even even as they navigate it and start to be part of it and grow into it. Like we've got to, we've got to really be super focused on what they're focused on. It's too easy to let a lot of the negativity slide Under our radar, and still reach them. And I think it's hard for some parents too, because because we didn't grow up in this world of what's happening to be actually actually aware of what is happening, because I mean, a lot of teenagers aren't, you know, super forthcoming with what's going on in their lives or what they're consuming on their phones. So yeah, to sort of, I don't know, yeah, I don't want to say educate yourselves, because that sounds really patronizing. But, you know, being aware talking to other parents and sort of finding out what sort of stuff your child could be into, or being exposed to, so you actually can help them out and put some boundaries in place, perhaps to sort of limit what they're what they're exposed to. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say to say that I don't think it's patronizing to say that at all, I think it's necessary to say that and even more necessary to act on that, because we're that line of defense, it is our job when they aren't rational enough as young people and they're developing and, you know, those connections are all being made in their brains. It's up to us to create those boundaries. And to keep talking the same talk. And I don't want to say it's rhetoric, because it's not rhetoric, it's important. But it's one of those things as parents, especially young kids, that we have to just keep saying over and over again until you want to throw up and until your kids want to throw up because they're so sick of hearing it, but we keep saying it anyway. Yeah. I want to turn to still looking at social media as a little bit. But the something I really love to talk about guests as talk about with guests on my show is mum guilt and or mommy guilt or mom guilt, whatever you want to call it. What are your thoughts about that whole topic? Oh, wow, I have a lot of thoughts about mom guilt, I also at times have had plenty of mom guilt. It, it is a toxic emotion, because it keeps us from doing the things that I think we need to do. And instead causes us to do things that we think we're supposed to do, like keep our young children busy from the second that they open their eyes in the morning, until the second thing go to bed at night. And we are so afraid of and so consumed by guilt, if we don't have, you know, a four course dinner on the table every night, if we don't have the house clean, if we don't have activities planned, if we don't have social events, if we like all all these things in that and this, this ties in all of this mom guilt ties very heavily into the whole comparison issue. Because we're all looking at everything that everybody around us is doing. And I'm not just talking about on social media, I'm talking about just like in general, we're looking at what everybody is doing around us. And we're feeling such intense feelings of guilt because we're not doing what that family is doing. Or we're that mom is doing and you know, and we're feeling guilty about things that we shouldn't feel guilty about. Like if you love your child, and you're dedicated to supporting your child and inspiring and encouraging your child and, you know, and you're not gonna let your child go hungry, like it's okay, if they have a bowl of cereal for dinner. It's okay, if the laundry is not done. It's okay. If you didn't get dressed today. It's okay. Like, that's the stuff we have to start emphasizing more than the whole idea of checking off every single box or else our day sucks, and we accomplished nothing. And we're guilt ridden because we didn't accomplish all the things that we feel like we're supposed to do. So it's a huge issue. And, and again, you know, it also is another issue similarly in the way that more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster, and I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest In the same way, I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into it, because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection, if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what yeah, it just serves no purpose to anybody does. It's such a, it's a horrible thing. I hate it. I just think it's a load of crap. It is even just makes me so cross. It's. Yeah. And I just want to hug all the moms all at once every moment, like, let go. Yes. Yep. Yeah, I had, I had some ladies on, I had like, four, four mums on at one time for a Mother's Day special few weeks ago. And they one of the ladies had written a letter to mum guilt. And it was like, Mum, guilt, you're a bitch, I need to read that it was really good. Really. And that's the thing, like, as well as like, not, like admitting that we're not going great admitting that, you know, I don't want to say a failure, I'm putting that in air quotes. But you know, that it actually is normal to not be doing everything, as well as you had hoped, like, these expectations that we feel like, we've got to do it this way. You know, for whatever reason, because we've been judged, or because someone told us, we should do that this way. Or, for whatever reason, you know, and to say, I actually, I don't buy into that stuff, you know, it's a really, it's a really powerful thing to say, and then to share with other mums. And they might go, oh, actually, I was feeling a bit like that. But I didn't know whether I should feel like that, you know, doubting yourself. And creating this whole movement of this, you know, giving the middle finger to monkeys. I know, I love that. And I appreciate and support that so much. Because I think that so much of what motivates us to, to, to, to reach a place of guilt, or to compare ourselves to other people in the first place comes from, directly from our ego, as we're doing this thing that so many millions of people before us have done and so many people alongside us are doing. And there's this internal voice that says like, Oh, of course, like, I can totally do it, like they do it, like I should be able to do that. Right? I should be able to have six kids, and also run a business and also have a like, a Better Homes and Gardens house and look amazing. And besides to and, you know, it goes on and on and on. But, and I think that when we can't, or don't do the things that, you know, we feel are the things that should be done. You know, that's, that's when it chips away at us. And, and it kind of breaks us it breaks our spirit, because then it's like, well, how come they can do it? I can't show that I'm failing at it. Yeah, that's the reason that we've we've got a hold up that, again, that perfection that everything's fine this facade of, you know, I see. Yeah. I really think people are getting more comfortable with that feeling of saying that, that they you know, not projecting the perfect world. I think I think we are getting better slowly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I've been begging people to talk about now, for? Well, well over a decade. You know, I moderate a group on Facebook that I that I started now, it's been years, it's been several years ago. And it's on Facebook, it's a public group, and it's called the vomit booth. And it's just a place that marries kind of everything that I do in terms of, you know, writing and speaking and kind of philosophies of parenthood, the humanistic common sense views of parenthood, and I brought it to this place where it could have an interactive component and people could actually come into this group and talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff and bond together and share together and the idea of it being a place where you could kind of like hurl out vomit up whatever it is, that's that's troubling you or holding you back and that people someone's there to hold your hair back while you let it out. And you can listen and vent and, and some incredible conversations over the past several years have come out because it's a place that I really encourage people to like If you're not okay, if you're struggling with XY or z, if you feel inadequate, like, let it out, share it, start that conversation, because I guarantee you that there are 10 million other people feeling the same way. But nobody wants to be like, nobody wants to be the first one to talk in the elevator. Yeah, like, just but once somebody does, everybody starts talking. So that's what we want to do. Yeah, that reminds me that analogy of the first one to talk when I in Australia, we have this thing called Moms groups where after you have your baby, they, they put you with complete strangers, they're just people that happen to have their child at the same time as you. So you put in with these people that you have nothing else in common with, apart from your baby came out at the same time you need. That's all you need. That's the common denominator. And I remember one of the first sessions we went to, and I was, you know, things were not going well. And everyone goes around the circle and says how they're going. And everyone seemed to be going really well. And I was sitting there thinking, why is everyone going so good? What is wrong with me? You know, what's wrong with my baby? Why am I struggling? And then, when it was my turn, I think I said something. I tried to make a joke like, Oh, I'm glad you're all going so great, because I'm not and then just My life sucks. Right now. I shared all the crap things about the no sleep and the sore boobs and we couldn't breastfeed. And when I broke the ice with that, that's when everyone started to be more honest. And it was like, Oh, thank God, like we can be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's just yeah. That's what it takes. And then then, then everybody comes out of the woodwork. And then everyone's like, Oh, but wait, but me, but this, but that we're outdoing each other with worse stories. Exactly. And, and you know, not not to take the focus off of parenting, which is what I know we're spending so much time talking about to circle it back for a second to mental health. That is exactly. And this applies to children. And parents, obviously, it applies to mental health in the sense that once we start vocalizing are not being okay, or our struggle, or our fear, or whatever it is, once we put it out there, there is almost always going to be someone who will then connect with that, and then we'll have some kind of a similar experience or know someone or, or understand on a deeper level, and then it just, it's like self perpetuating, then all of a sudden, that dialogue starts and it's that's why it's so important what whatever space you're in, in the world, whether it's the mental health space, or the parenting space, or the marriage space. It's not communication, that can change everything that can elevate you from a place of silently suffering or feeling shame or being stuck to it elevates you to a place where okay, I'm not alone anymore. And other people know what I feel like and other people may have done some things can suggest some things that will, that will be useful to me. And that's why this there's so much incredible power in our shared experiences. But they do no one any good if we don't share them Yeah. Yeah, that mental health is at least interesting one, I think. People are really afraid to share that. It's like, the way I sort of compare like, if you've got a broken leg, you're not going to be scared to go to the doctor to say, Hey, could you fix my leg? But for some reason, we were so worried about being judged by I don't know, it's, it seems like we've we've failed somehow, but we're not actually in control of the, you know, the chemical imbalances in our brains. But we've sort of learned, I guess, from previous generations that that's something you don't talk about. And, you know, I had an experience where I had quite bad postnatal depression with both my children. And I shared I did a podcast years ago with a mental health group in my town. And then that then snowballed into it was like a group of community people that were known in the community members that that would be identified, sort of through whether they like it as me as a singer. There was like, people that own shops like just pick faces that you know, in the community, and we ended up with these great big banners. They put us on these banners and put us all around town with the little like cute barcode scan, listen and listen to the podcast. And my dad said to me, are you sure you want everyone to know what happened to you? I said, Yes, that I do. This is exactly why I'm doing it. Because I want people to know that it is normal is nothing to be ashamed of. It's like normalizing this discussion around mental wellness or mental unwellness. And I don't know, it's like, yeah, that generation, it's like, Oh, don't don't talk about that sort of stuff, you know? Well, we had no, you're right. 1,000%. Right. And I love the fact that you did that, because that is what we should all be doing. And I know, it's a lot harder for some than others. There are a lot of people out there who are, you know, very introverted, and very uncomfortable sharing. But the fact of the matter is that there has always been such a deep dark stigma associated with mental illness. I mean, I think back to, you know, another generation before me to my parents generation, though, I lost my father to suicide when I was 10 years old, thank you. And I didn't find out about his suicide until I was in my mid 40s. So 35 years later, I found out about it. Not at all, because my mother felt like it was shameful, had nothing to do with it whatsoever, my mother was just strictly trying to protect me, I had already lost my person to have told me at that time, when I was 10 years old, that it was his decision would have shattered me beyond repair. So in that sense, I'm so grateful that she did that. But it had nothing to do with a stigma. But still, at that time, and for so many decades later, until just really in recent history, it isn't, wasn't something you talked about, it was something that automatically, by default, gave you kind of a black mark, and made you feel less than or made you appear less than even if it didn't, it did in your own head because of the narrative that was associated with it. And, you know, it's like the same reason why parents were so reluctant to say that their children had learning disabilities, or that their children had mental health issues. And same thing, they didn't, they didn't want that stigma to be attached, but it's only in doing what you did, or what I began to do, which is to talk in every space I possibly can about my father's story, to help encourage other people to share their story, or their trauma or their grief or their, their illness, because that's how we change. That's how we normalize it. And that's how we change that narrative. You know, I think of it in in so many different ways, when I think of what happened to my father, and how it's impacted me in my life. You know, there's the loss that I felt as a 10 year old, then there's the loss that I felt, so I have grieved his death now twice in my life, you know, once his child and once as a grown, married mother of two children. And, you know, I think about the power that's within that story, both as a child and a survivor of suicide loss, and someone who has had to kind of travel that arc of forgiveness. And I also think about it in terms of like, when I really found out the truth, my girls were teenagers, I had one, just entering high school, I had one who was graduating from high school, and, you know, my oldest, has, has had mental health issues and has had anxiety and some depression and is very open about it. And, you know, getting help for it has changed your life, it's changed, you know, because as you said a little while ago, these are things it's like, if you were born, if you were born with six fingers on your hand, you would be someone who was born with six fingers on your hand, and that was beyond your control. And in that same exact way, like someone's born with a heart condition or someone God forbid, has cancer. It's, it is no different. The mental health challenges, issues, diagnoses, whatever you want to call them, that we have as human beings like that is that is beyond our control. And we need to be treated in the same way that you would treat someone with heart disease or cancer or whatnot or a broken leg. Yep. So yeah, my my, my goal at that time once I kind of arrived at a place of really, truly understanding why my father, I don't know the reason why I will never know the reason why. And that haunted me for a long time. It doesn't anymore. I just know that my father had so much mental illness that was undetected by anybody in our family, but he it was not being here anymore, whether it was for our benefit or his was the only solution. And so I've come to accept that but I've also accepted the fact that my father had so much gin netic like the genetic cocktail in my poor dad's body, from where he grew up and how he grew up, and the mental illness that existed in his family, like that's in my destiny that's in my children. And what really inspired me, I think, to start talking in general about it to my children in particular, was, like, you guys may not feel this way or that way now, or have these feelings or emotions or thoughts now, maybe when you're 22, maybe when you're 26, maybe when you're 30, maybe, you know, these, these things don't always surface immediately. And I wanted them to know like, look, this is, here's your DNA. Here's, here's what could be in your DNA. And here's what it might look like in you. Because here's what it looks like in him, I have certain tendencies or issues. I'm an empath. I feel everything as though I'm grabbing on to like an electrified wire, all the good and the bad in my life house, and I feel it like I'm holding a live wire. And I know, that's how it manifested in me, but I wanted to have that conversation with my kids so that they would know and be able to have an open line of communication. Like, I'm okay, I'm feeling weird. I need to talk to someone I knew. So, yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that it's worth. It's yeah, thank you. It's really great. So that, that you're able to share it. Because like you said, there's so many people that can't for whatever reason, and that sort of reason why I feel like I sort of want to help those people in my own way by sharing my story, because maybe they can't, but that, like you said before, you know, they might take something from it, they might go, oh, I can empathize with that I, I experienced that. Or I understand what you mean by that. And that might give them the little nudge to, to reach out and do what they need to do. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Identity is another thing that I really love talking about this, you know, that we're, we're a woman, we're having this amazing life. We're doing all these things, and then we become a mother. And then it seems that our sole purpose is then to, you know, be a mother, that we might lose other components of ourselves that we had three children, or all? Yeah, yeah. So Oh, and yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people through these podcasts. And there's so many varying degrees of experience with that, which is wonderful. Because, you know, we're all different in that it's great to share. Have you got some thoughts about that? Topic? Yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of thoughts, a lot of odds, a lot of experience with it. Yeah, I mean, I was definitely lost for a period of time, for sure. In my life. Probably around the time that I chose to stay home, my husband and I agreed, you know, that, that I would stay home. He was, you know, the primary breadwinner at the time. And, and it made sense, just economically, that I would be the one. And I was in that place that you talked about, like that incredible place of, Oh, I know exactly what my purpose is. My purpose is those two little humans and, and teaching them and growing them and nurturing them and loving them and doing everything for them. And you get lost in that place. And I'm not saying that that's not a beautiful place, and you have children, and obviously you have children to be devoted to those children and raise them and whatnot. But as I think we've all realized, over the past, I would say probably five years or so 10 years or so, maybe just even five self care is something self care and preserving or creating our own identity simultaneously, is so necessary, it is imperative that we do that. And so many of us just kind of pack up our former identity, and just put it in a little box and put it in the back of the closet. And that's where it stays. And we're so you know, laser focused on our kids. That then all of a sudden, and it happens all of a sudden, you know, it is gradual, but then it's not because all of a sudden you're at that point where you're like, well, they don't need me at all, for almost anything except maybe some cash from time to time. And laundry and food. So, and then all of a sudden you're like What the hell am I What am I supposed to do now? Like, where do I go? What do I do and, and it's really hard. And I was definitely in that space. And what really did help me was kind of this organic, tripping and falling into this life within the school system that I had. And that became a path that felt right to me for so many years. And for so many reasons. You know, and then I had a chance to, you know, write books for a living and do what I'm doing now. And it evolved, but it was only because I basically, like pulled on my big girl pants and said, I, I have to have something that is for me, I have to figure out what that is, and who that is. And you know, and honor what I need for my life. Because I've just spent the last, you know, 20 something years, giving my children what they needed. And the more attention that I started paying on myself. And the more I did for the benefit of my own growth, and the more I prioritized that the healthier I was everywhere else in my life, like bottom line, and it was work. It was working, and it continues to be work. But it's such powerful, unnecessary work. Hmm. You know, so lately, That's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's something that I, I could not exist without things for myself, honestly, I just go, like, go more mental than I am now. No, I get it, I get it have to have, it's just, ah, I don't know. I, it's so it is so necessary. And you know, it's interesting, like, like, I was saying before, like, I couldn't, I couldn't be a stay at home mom, like I just, I have so much respect for for moms that do that, because I just couldn't do it. You know, and we're all different in what we need. And, and that kind of stuff. I just Yeah, I don't know. But first of all, there's nothing I love better than a good Blab. That's, you know, that's where all the best ideas and you know, and experiences come from our blabbing. But like, I just have such respect for for all the different varieties of parenting that there are out there, like you've got the stay at home mom, or you've got the mom that those the hybrid, or you've got the mom that goes into the office every day or, you know, and every thing in between. And, you know, there's, there's just so much credit, I think to be given, for people who understand, like, this is where I'm really good. This is where I'm really great. And this is where I need to make sure that a lot of my attention is focused, and but it's also over here too. So it's like, you know, it's just it, we're constantly building on ourselves. And, and, and I love that there's so much inspiration for doing it in so many different ways. And there isn't one way that's, that's better or more accomplished than any other way. They're just great examples. And that just inspires me when I see that. Yeah. And it kind of this, this, someone's going off on a tangent never it kind of makes me it makes me sad for a lot of sets the word, but it Yeah, it does. It makes me sad for for previous generations of women whose role it was exclusively to be a mother, you know, like, there wasn't a choice. It was like, when you got pregnant, you left work, because you had to give the jobs to the single women, right? When they got married, they had to quit their jobs. You know, just all the things that women would have wanted to do. You know, and if they did do it, they were judged so harshly for, you know, doing the wrong thing. And putting that in air quotes again. You know, just the opportunities that we have now, because of the work that previous generations have done to get us to this point is tremendous. Because I just think if I hadn't lived in that era of my grandmother, yeah, I would. I would know, you and I would have gone on an island somewhere. Like another community where we could do anything we wanted because i It's funny, I often think about that my daughter, my oldest and I seem to fall into this conversation all the time about different periods of time, where we felt she she would have preferred living during like, caveman era for something she's got lots of wrist very funny, lots of reasons why, but with that I don't need to go into but that was like her period of time. And I, you know, I would have loved to have lived I think during the 60s. I mean, I was a child of the 60s but I was an infant. I would have liked to have had that experience because it was such an explosive period of time in the world. But I also think that you I don't think I could have survived it just like you like, I know, like, I would have known if I was the person I am today that back then I would have been like, Oh, hell no, like, I'm gonna work. No, like equal salary equal opportunity. I'm gonna work from home, my husband's gonna raise the kid, you know, and I think I made it would have made a lot of enemies back then because I just wouldn't have tolerated it. But yeah, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those, you know, those pioneers who came before us for sure. Absolutely. stuff without them. Oh, yeah. See, even like, when I watch, I really love period dramas. I can't even think like the Jain is and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you just think those those skills there are in? What's that one that's on the British and, you know, you get a taste for it. There's one of the daughters, who just, you know, wants to do our own thing doesn't want to get married, you know, you just think how much of that would have gone on. But no one would have had a choice. It's just you had to do this, you had to marry this bloke for money, because it kept your family going, you know, all the sacrifices that women would have made to think Christ at night. Just, it's, it's really disturbing. Like, read it. i Yeah, it's disturbing. And I also feel like such deep sadness that so many generations of women had to live such a pressed lives, and we're so limited and these brilliant, capable humans, were forced to do like, one of three things. Either you were going to be a teacher, or you were, you know, a mother or a homemaker or that was it. And, um, yeah, we we've, we've definitely come a long way. And, you know, I'm excited to see how much further we can go. But like, I'm just really grateful that I'm kind of living in the period of time that I'm living right now. Yeah. I would not have made it yet. You, so you mentioned your daughter there. Briefly, I wanted to ask, as a mom of two girls, is it important for you to sort of role model the fact that as a mom, you can do anything you want? That? You can? You can? Yeah, the sky's the limit, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's always been incredibly important to me. And I think that the reason why it's, it's so deeply embedded in me is because of my own mother, and because of what my own mother has both gone through and accomplished in in her life. I mean, my mother, you talk about, like what people were supposed to do at certain times, you know, in history, my mother, when she went to school, went to high school was, was just such a strong and capable student she loved, she loved school, she loved the whole learning process. But she came from a family that was a very lower income family, everybody worked, and she wanted to go off to college, they couldn't afford college. So as soon as she graduated with honors from high school, she went to work with my grandmother. And so, you know, then my mother got married and worked a part time job in a nursing home. And my all of all of my experiences with you know, when I think of strong women, it all traces back to what my mother did. My mother was became a widow when she was 40. She had never had a college degree. She had to raise now a family by herself, a child by herself live in a home by herself. And my mother went back to school, six months after my father passed away, went back to college for five years at night, got her degree, worked, got a good job, you know, was the most present and hands on parent and it was because of that, like, I saw that. I saw that, you know, my mother and I used to do homework together in her bedroom at four and 5am in the morning, because that's the only time she could do it. She wanted to do it in a way that it wouldn't disrupt our dynamic. And so I started doing that with her and it just she and she alone was the one that that proved to me that like the sky is the limit. You can do anything that you set your mind to that women are so resilient. Humans are so resilient and I always wanted my daughters to feel that way. So it's, you know, when I started getting opportunities to do the things that I really wanted to do, like, I wanted to be on the radio, I wanted to write books, I, you know, I wanted to put myself out there, it was scary as hell, because, you know, you put content out there on a regular basis, and you know, that not everybody receives what you put out there well, and I was like, nope, gonna, gonna go gonna go ahead and do it. And as a result, you know, my, I've watched my daughters grow into their independence and want to just kind of, like, grab life by the throat and say, here I come. And it's beautiful. And it's, it's necessary, and if it doesn't come from us, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to be wired that way in their life. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah, when they get from us, and, and my husband too, is, is has always been so is, you know, inspiring in that way, and supportive and, you know, has built us up and motivated us and encouraged us to, you know, and supported us to get out there and do all the things. You know, so having those positive influences really makes a huge impact. Yeah, that's it is it? It's like they, if they grow up with that, that that positive messaging from the beginning, it's like, that's, they're gonna take that through their lives and keep passing it on. And, you know, that just keeps rolling on all that. All that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Something I've just started talking to moms about, I'm gonna make it an official topic, because I'm getting really interested in this lately. It's funny how like, like, you're talking before how you get led in certain ways, and you do different things that you might have been planning. Same happens with, like, the topics I talk about, they sort of evolve over time. And one thing that keeps coming up is this, the value, a big thing is through the pandemic, when things got shut down, as particularly in Australia, you know, we had the restriction on movements between our states, but our sports people, mainly sports men, were able to basically do whatever they liked, or the football and the soccer or continued, but the arts and anything sort of creative, like performance, you know, the shows, all that sort of stuff, that all got shut down. And that sort of is sort of sparked a bit of a, a conversation or a thoughts around the value that we place on the arts, and then that sort of snowballed into the value that we place on a mother that is a creator, you know, is it? Is it okay for her to do that? Because that's not a roll. Putting that in air quotes again. Yeah, you know, she's meant to raise children. So how do we view the mother? That is the Creator? Do you have any thoughts on that? I've just spread me sweat on you. Yeah, no, I like I like when people throw questions like that at me that I don't see coming. You know, I think that it goes back to what we talked about a little while ago, that we, we and I say we, in terms of women, mothers have had to fight for our position. And, and it's been a very challenging fight. And, you know, I think by default, we, you know, when you think of parents, you naturally just automatically assume that the mother is going to be that prime caregiver. And that that has to be kind of the ultimate responsibility that, you know, that overshadows any other thing that that woman may be that you know, that she she may be a professional, she may be an artist, she may be a creator, any of those things, like, we've got to shove all that aside for 18 or so years. And we've got to focus on on, you know, the mom being the mom. I think, I think it's trending, but I don't know what you're seeing in Australia now that we're, I don't want to say that we're out of a pandemic, because we are by no means out of it. But I think that you know, I don't want to put it in these terms, but I think it is just, it's just but in these terms by default, you talk about like, oh, well, it was okay for the footballers and the men to keep doing what they were doing. Well, they were making money. It was commercial, they were making money. And I'm not to say that artists like I know that you're a singer and a songwriter, and you know, and those who are kind of deep within the arts aren't making money but they sure as hell aren't making money on the same scale, as you know, professional teams and things like that. So I think that they just got a free pass. Yeah. And we still had to stay kind of, you know, had to be kept in this role of, Oh, you guys have to be there to take care of everything else. While you know, well, well, you know, the money is being made. And, you know, there's, you know, the energy surrounding this, these, these sports and, and what comes from them has to be supported, you guys have to do the rest because by virtue of you know, parenting, I mean, it's you know, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of caregivers are moms are women. Not that there aren't plenty of stay at home dads and caregivers who are dads, but that's our role. And we have to just keep kind of breaking out of that. That, that place of that identity. And, and I think it all goes, it travels right back to the whole, you know, self care and identity conversation that we had a few minutes ago. Where's it we can't tolerate that anymore. That's the thing. We have to say, our art or our craft or our inspiration, or our creativity is just as important. And just as as necessary, and we have to fight for it. And it sucks that we have to do so much active promoting it and fighting for it. But we do and we have to do that collectively. And that's that's how we change that tide. Yeah. You know, your thoughts about it? Yeah, the thing that, yeah, then the monetary thing is a big one, isn't it? Because we obviously live in a capitalist society. So money drives pretty much everything. And that's something that has really been annoying me lately, too. It's like, because because what you're doing doesn't have a similar monetary value to what someone else is doing. It's just automatically not given the credit that the other thing is given. And that's something that annoys me. Oh, and, and I think it annoys me too. And I'm glad that we're talking about it, because it's by virtue of conversations like this, like whoever it is, that's listening to us right now. If they share that feeling, well, then that's, then there's a domino effect there. And then this conversation extends beyond you and I and extends beyond the podcast, and then it gets other people talking and gets other people aware. And then there's, then we have to kind of collectively not tolerate it anymore, recognize it? And then start talking about it so that it can be addressed. And it can change. Absolutely, yeah. And I think an example that I always go to, with this show, whenever we start talking about value, monetary value, and how society generally, judges creativity, or the arts. There was a, I'm gonna get this story wrong every time I feel like I change it every time I tell it. But one of my guests gave me an example of how her and her sister in law both had young children that the grandma was going to be looking after, while the moms were working. The grandma would look after the sister in law's children, because she was going to a proper job in a proper office, putting their near quotes again. But she wouldn't look after the artists children, because she was just fluffing it out. She wasn't actually working. And I'm praying that air quotes get. And that's just, I mean, that's could be potentially a generational thing too. But oh, sure, for sure. Yeah, it's just that kind of view of the arts and mother's creating, it just gives me the sheets and really, you know what it is? I think it's not it's like it's there's a stigma about it, that you're like taking your one in a million shot. Like if you think of, of someone who's a singer, songwriter, you know, you're doing that as a as a child or young person, you'd come home and tell your parents I'm not going to conventional following the conventional path and going to college. I'm going to pursue my degree in acting or my my acting, passion or my music, passion or my songwriting, passion, whatever it is. And I think that because it there's such a minority of people who become successful on a level that people equate with success, like you have to have like an album out to be successful. You have to have a book out to be successful. You know what I mean? There's so much. There's so many different degrees of success within that but I think that that it's it's based on? Well, it's not really legitimate, like, you're just, you know, you're just writing, you know, some some fluffy little songs here or there or you're, you know, you're painting some pretty little pictures here and there that there's no real substance or value or, or monetary piece that you can attach. So that it's like, it's it legitimized. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think that's where a good deal of the issues come from. And, you know, you think of these proper tracks, college leads to job leads to financial security. Well, people are only now just recognizing that that is not the only way. That is not the only path that is not the only measure of success like that, that that dollar sign cannot, cannot be attached to the word success anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, it just reminded me of this conversation, my son, my oldest son's 14, and he's just having to start choose his subjects for next year school. So this, you know, the pathway to whatever job he wants to do, they're starting the subjects now. And I keeps my husband's a financial planner. So humans are completely different brains, the way we think about a thing. And I keep saying to him, just do something that you enjoy doing, you know, find the thing you're passionate about, work out, if there's job around that, you know, if there's not one, make one, you know, what I mean? Like, find something that you love to do. And then my husband's like, I'll make sure you get enough money. So it's like, yeah, covering it from both sides. Yeah, that's, it's hard. Because I mean, look, we can't ignore the fact that bills have to be paid. Our kids at some point, down the line are going to have to be self sufficient. They're going out, they're going to need to live on their own, or they're going to have to buy food and gas and, and, you know, support all the things that, you know, are involved in living independently. But it's like, it's it just bums me out, when we attach like, well, you have to do you have to have a six figure job to do that well to mean that, that you are successful. And it's, it's crap. And it's setting our kids up, to be really disillusioned about doing what they really want. It's, you know, it's setting them up to believe that they shouldn't do what they really want. They should do what they really have to do. Yeah, I mean, we do have to keep it real in the sense that our children do have to learn how to support themselves. But at the same time, too, we can't, we can't make them believe that, you know, there's only one way to do that. And there's only one level at which they should aspire to do that. Yeah, that's it, isn't it. The other thing that I think is changing when we're talking about money, and, and things, there's the whole culture, I don't know. I certainly noticed over here, but it's changing now, but this culture on social media of this hustle, and you've got to always be doing something and, you know, I can't think of any, like, Girlboss and all these sort of hashtags. And it's like, you have to be driving really hard. And it's just, it's exhausting. Like, you just think when do you have time when, like, this self care, you know, actually, resting rest is not a reward for doing rest is, you know, should be something that we do naturally, because our bodies aren't supposed to go full bore all the time. You know, that culture around that, I feel like is, is definitely shifting, which is really good. It definitely is. I mean, you know, there's definitely this population that believes, especially these millennials, who believe like, you've got to have a side hustle. And you've got to also have a side hustle. And you've got to be in constant motion, and you've got to be that much more driven and that much more successful and that much more capable. And, and I think that's just coming from a place like in particular with women, it just comes from everything that you and I have already talked about in terms of like, we're kind of fighting for a position we're fighting still, to be taken seriously to be viewed equally, to be respected to, you know, and so it's, it's almost like we just, you know, we have to just go at it a lot harder to be taken even more seriously. And that's unfortunate that we that we kind of innately feel that way Yeah, it's just, it's unfortunate. And I hope that as as time goes on, and we begin to kind of normalize success, you know, you know, across across the gender spectrum, like it's, it's, you know, be just as successful as a man or a woman anything. That's, you know, it's going to take time for, I think, us to let go of that, that internal drive. Because I think it's burning a lot of people out, it's really hurting people out. You know, and I think it's causing people to be, you know, to put themselves in positions that they might not want to put themselves in, because they, you know, or do things in terms of like, jobs and opportunities, just because they feel like they have to versus they want to. Yeah, so hopefully those two scales will eventually balance. Hmm. Yeah. composure of hustle the way we do? Oh, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, it's funny, like, all this stuff that is ingrained in us as, as kids and growing up like, you always had, like college, like we call it University over here, but it doesn't have the same I don't think has the same sort of end goal. Like for you guys, like every, I'm making an assumption, but on TV shows and movies, it's like, everyone goes to college. Over here, uni is not, we don't all go to uni, it's like, if you get a job out of school, that's almost the best thing you can do. But I remember, like, like, my dad worked really long hours. You know, I think a lot of us grew up with that, that nine to five, or, you know, eight to six sort of culture around you, your parents or your your dad working. And it's like, that's what you're supposed to do, you know, and then all of a sudden, you go, Oh, actually, I don't really like this. And it's like, you start to no question stuff and see what people around you are doing. I remember the first time I realized that, I had a friend who was only working part time. And like this was when I was, you know, just out of school working as like, how can you do that? Are you supposed to be working full time? This is like, No, it was a foreign concept. From what I'd grown up, we'd say, you know, again, these little changes. And, yeah, well, it's like the whole millennial mindset. Now. And I talk about this a lot with my older daughter in particular, because even though there's only three years in between our girls, it was a, it's a big enough gap that my oldest mindset about certain things is quite different than my youngest. And they're both very, very hard workers. You know, my oldest is in graduate school right now to be a teacher. And she's also working full time and my youngest works full time in the school system. But it's funny, like, you look at the millennial, the millennial mind nowadays, and they're all like, I don't want to be an I'm not going to be in an office, I'm not going to take that job that I'm applying for, if it means I actually have to go into an office or if it means I have to travel, they're like, no, no, I'm really focusing on my work life balance right now. Like that whole generation is not having it at all. And I think too, that you know, and this goes back to one of the, like, if you have to attach a silver lining to what's happened pandemic wise, it's allowed us to do so many things from home that we otherwise just that weren't allowed before. And so it's brought the world much closer, it's made everyone and everything much more accessible as the upside. And, you know, I just look at the way that my children are now and all of these millennials are like, yeah, um, so I've been working from home for like, the last 18 months, and I'm really not planning on continuing my company, if my company is not going to allow us to do that, you know, it's just so funny. You know, and now they're all like, converting vans, and living van life and working remotely from like, deserts and, you know, and, and beaches. And, and I absolutely know that if I had been born now, if I was my 25 year old age, I would 1,000% be working remotely, I would have like a Ford van that was converted, and I would be like on the coast of Australia somewhere down the road from you, and I take home from a van and you know, and and they're they're not settling for that so they things so I guess the reason why I'm saying all that about my own kids is because it's just proof that that that tide has changed. thing that they're prioritizing. They're worse. And they're prioritizing that, that work life balance and that self care a lot more in this generation. And they're not tolerating the idea of the whole, like, nine to five and the way that it used to be like, he's so good, it's wonderful. Yeah, that's interesting about during the pandemic, like all this stuff that people would sit on, that's never possible. You can't do this, and you can't do that. And it's like, actually, you can. It's wonderful. You know, and I don't know, we learned a lot. I mean, it was horrible, still is a horrible thing that, you know, a lot of families and people have gone through, which is been really not very nice. But there has been some positives come out for, for the whole of humanity, I think, looking at things differently and challenging. Yeah. And it's that old saying, like, you know, why do we do it this way? Because we've always done it that way, you know, that, that? And I think that's a real sort of, I don't know, almost a masculine mindset. And I want to say that it sounds nasty, but no, reminds me of something my dad would say. Yeah, no, I get it. I understand why you would say that. It's, it's just because historically, that has been the mindset. That's the way things were for generations. You know, think of the hierarchy who it was that instituted those ideas and those values and you're not wrong. Yeah, I don't want to blame all the boys but we're finger pointing at you guys history. Have you got anything you want to share that you're working on at the moment or future projects coming up? Anything you want to give a shout out to and share? Where people can find you online? And that kind of stuff? Yeah, sure. I'd love to. I think I mentioned a little earlier that one of the things that's got a lot of my focus right now is mental health, and suicide prevention and awareness. And that that actually slides right into the project that I'm working on right now, which is another book that really uses my father's story, the story of my my father suicide, as just a vehicle for starting conversations and for helping people just through my own personal experience, helping people kind of travel that that road to forgiveness, if they're a survivor of suicide loss. And so that's, that's something that I'm kind of deep in the weeds with right now, doing a ton of work on and then working to be a crisis counselor with a crisis agency here in, in the United States, that I'm actually very, very excited about because that kind of all goes hand in hand. So I'm working on that. And just continuing to do lots of speaking and writing about parenting, just the way that I'm doing now on all the outlets here in the States and around, you know, around the world that that help families be happy. So that's what I'm working on. And you can find me anywhere. I mean, you can find me, my website is Lisa sugarman.com. And everything I'm working on is kind of in that one spot. Instagram is Lisa underscore Sugarman, the Lisa Sugarman on Facebook, you can join the vomit booth if you search the vomit booth on Facebook we can I will I will let you in you can just curl it all up oh definitely going to check that out. I'm really really interested in that. That sounds really good. I want all of your moms in your in your community in your area in your part of the world I want to know what's you know, what's affecting you and bringing all this it's like a clown car you can I'll millions of moms and dads and stuff you. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on later. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a really great conversation. I I've loved I've loved every minute of it too. And it's so fun for me to just to especially to hear what's going on in places where I you know, I don't I don't frequent I don't I know know what, you know what's happening in your part of the world the way You do. And so it's it's often fun to find out, you know that some things are different and some things are similar. And at the end of the day like we still It proves my point that no matter where you are and what you're doing as a mom, it's like, we're, you know, we're all part of the same community and the same family here, and we're all dealing with the same stuff. So it's fun to be able to come together and share that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for sharing so openly. And honestly, I really appreciate it. And I know my listeners will appreciate it, too. So yeah, thanks so much. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Rose Dela Cruz New Zealand photographer S2 Ep37 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rose Dela Cruz is a photographer from Auckland New Zealand and a mum of 1 daughter. Rose moved from her home country of the Philippines when she was 11 years old with her mum. Rose began her photography life in 2012 as a second shooter assisting at weddings as a bit of a hobby. At that time, she had no plans to peruse it as a career, just enjoying taking photos when her and her husband travelled. But when her daughter was born in 2020 she fell in love with capturing her. The seeds were sown and Rose began her photographic business, specializing in relaxed, candid and un-posed outdoor shoots, utilizing the surrounding beaches and “the golden hour” (about an hour before the sunset). Her favourite subjects are couples, expectant mothers and families. And she loves to make connections with her subjects and take time observing them, particularly the children. Rose also has a background in dancing, music, playing the guitar. She has an intense desire to create, in whatever form that my take. Rose's instagram https://www.instagram.com/journeybyrosephotography/ and new website www.journeybyrosephotography.com Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=yJPCGKTpSqyXh_l3zQfvDQ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health and how children manifest in their hours. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowhunting people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Rose Dela Cruz. Rose is a photographer from Auckland in New Zealand, and a mother of one daughter. Rose moved from her home country of the Philippines when she was 11 years old with her mum. She began her photography life in 2012 as a second shooter, assisting at weddings as a bit of a hobby. At that time, she had no plans to pursue it as a career, just enjoying taking photos when her and her husband traveled. But when her daughter was born in 2020, she fell in love with capturing her and the seeds were sown. Rose began her photographic business specializing in relaxed, candid and unposed outdoor shoots, utilizing the surrounding beaches and the golden hour, that hour before the sunset. Her favorite subjects are couples expectant mothers and families and she loves to make connections with her clients and take the time to observe them, particularly the children. Rose also has a background in dancing, music and playing the guitar. She has an intense desire to create in whatever form that may take. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome along raise. Thanks so much for coming on today. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah, so you're over in New Zealand. In Auckland. Yeah. So what's your weather like there at the moment? Are you your summer is still in summer? Yes. Summer It's so hot. So humid. Reminds me of Philippines when when we were living there. Didn't you step out outside of the mall or somewhere cool. And it's just it hits here, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You came out of that air conditioned and you're like, Oh, yeah. Oh, dear. So how long have you been in New Zealand for you mentioned during the Philippines? Oh, we I came here when we came here. My mum and I when I was 11. So not really long time ago. And now I'm I'm 31. So 2020 years? Yeah. 20 years? Yep. Yeah. Pretty much pretty much grew up here. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. So tell me about your work. You're a photographer over there in New Zealand. Yeah. How long have you been out for? Um, I started back in 2012. But that was mostly as a hobby. I used to do, I used to be a second shooter for my friend down from 323 photography, and he does wedding photography. And I used to be a second shooter for him. So but it was mostly like I said, as a hobby. So I didn't really, you know, I, I didn't think I was gonna pursue it as a business. And so I had my baby. So for a long time, it was mostly you know, my when I got married my husband when we would travel. I will he would be the subject my photography, and then came along my baby. So she became the subject of my photography and I just fell in love with, you know, capturing her and I think I speak for most moms. When I say that once you have a baby, your cameras, your vet your videos are filled with that of your your children. Oh, absolutely. Do you so How old's your daughter? She's two. Yeah, right. Oh, fun time. So just trying to actually I know Oh, very talkative now. Yeah. It's a good age, though, isn't it when they can sort of they can, they can express their feelings to you a bit more. Yeah, there's a lot more. Yeah. Communications. Communication. Yeah. Which is, which is a relief because then, you know, she's able to she's not just crying all the time. And the more she's able to actually tell me what's bothering her or what she needs. So and as a mom, you know, you it's a relief to be able to provide exactly what you know. She's wanting and yeah, yeah, absolutely. So were you always sort of interested in photography? Like, did you grow up? Sort of surrounded? Yeah, artistic people or not? Well, I've always had the creative side, I've always loved like, dancing. Dancing is like, a part of me also. But right now, it's just not something that, you know, I've, I could, you know, spend time doing so growing up, like even art and stuff I've always loved creating. So in photography, you know, growing up with my friends, they we love taking photos of each other. But nothing like I said, growing up, nothing too serious. It was more of a hobby, but the more I, you know, I think it started when I first bought my DSLR which is, you know, like the, the big camera that I have, and it's, it's when I started to really, like started to learn about photography about composition. And like I said, doubt, my friend was a big part of that. He taught me a lot about photography. And being because I started in the wedding industry, it's there's a lot of detail to capture a lot of emotion, a lot of you know, it's, it's, there's a lot to learn from it. So it was a really huge part of my, how I develop my photography now. But now I I focus more on like families, expecting mums expecting parents, couples, and babies and toddlers. So that's where I kind of yeah, my passion grew into that. And yeah, I just love like watching the dynamics among families. Yeah, and children how they play and how they have so there's just so much joy like they find joy and everything and anything. So it's lovely to be able to capture that that innocence and just pure joy. Hmm. Yeah, that's it isn't like something we see is really mundane, or we take for granted. They're really drawn to something and they're like, fascinated by like tiny details. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. It's super interesting. Yeah. And I noticed I was looking on your Instagram feed you use the ocean a lot in your photos. Is that something that are connected to as well? Yeah, just the beach of I love the beach. I love going to the beach. My toddler loves the beach. I mean, if she while she sees the water she just kind of goes for it you know? And I had to kind of hold her in because otherwise she'll just keep going she loves so she it's there's just something about out another water that really calms me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I guess you to your your subjects like you people that you've photography you're photographing, they probably quite relaxed too because it's you know, it's a space Yeah, most people feel comfortable in. They can just be themselves. Yeah, exactly. And that's it helps because because my style is more natural, more relaxed, it helps that ambience it helps set that tone. And I love doing it during sunset so I love I really love Golden Hour, which is about an hour before the sunset. That lighting is just because I use natural lighting in my in my photography. Even if I do indoors, I utilize natural lighting. So it's it's just there's something about that lighting during sunset. That's just so beautiful. Oh yeah, absolutely. And the funny thing is like, every, every time I do a sunset session, it's never the same. You think, you know, like, oh, the sunsets, you know, as the sunsets is the same lighting, but it's not it's just it's different. And it's that uniqueness. It's so beautiful. Yes, I love it. So even if two people have got like this roughly the same time, they're gonna look different then the same. Yeah, even the same place, same place, same time. Different, just different lighting. Yeah, it's cool, isn't it? It's really fascinating that people would love that too. Like, no one really wants to have exactly the same photos have a vision of what they what they'd like. And, but it turns out, not exactly the same. Even if it's similar. It's not exactly the same, which is, you know, it's lovely to see the differences sorry, forgive my lack of geographical knowledge. These are Auckland on the coasts. Now, well, we're kind of I have to, to be able to get to like the beaches. I have to drive quite a bit because we're like, I'm right. We're right in the center. I live in South Auckland, which the nearby beach like actual beach that I go to the west along the west coast is about maybe 15 minutes from here. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. And even the east coast beaches. It's about a safe half an hour. Yeah, right. Yeah. So your your though, hang on while I'm talking to you. I'm just going to bring him back up. Sorry. I'm really interested in when I talk to people I love to know them when the weather and all of a live. I'm like, I find it really fascinating. I see. So you're right up you're like right in. I say Oh, that would be cool place to be because you kind of like like you said you have access to Yeah, we're surrounded by beaches north. But yeah, in South Auckland, it's most like you have to do a better driving to get to. To the beaches. Yeah. But still, it's no it's not like, I don't know. It's not. It's not unaccessible you know, no, you can do it and it's not enraged. Yeah, that's the word. And like when when we were in Philippines, you have to drive six hours to a beach to make a trip out of it. It's not just and I think we're so blessed to be I were so blessed to be in New Zealand now where you know, you get to you could drive half an hour and get to a a wonderful beach, you know, a safe beach where the kids could play you know? Yeah, because not all people could have that. Oh, absolutely. I think I think when you're in a place like that you sort of take it for granted a little bit because he like it's so easy. But yeah, where I live I live well we're Brett 2530 minutes from the beach. But I also there's a really amazing swimming place about 20 minutes like on the way to the beach 20 minutes there. And it's called the little blue lake and it's this this naturally occurring like big like hole basically it's all got eight meter cliffs all around it and it's just this stunning place and we go there lately because it's been really hot we've been going there like every day I was just there last night for you. How lucky are we like we're in this amazing place it's 20 minutes down the road from our house like Yeah. Pretty special Yeah. So when you were pregnant were you still working doing your use second? What was sorry? What did you call it? Second cam second shooter. second shooter. Yeah, shooter. Yeah, we used to active taking photos but not so much. I think I stopped doing second shooting for weddings when I got married. It just after that things just got busy. You know, you adjust like with life as a wife, you know from being Single and and then you focus on much with work and because that was about around the time where I started working as well as you know, full time. So no, it's I kind of stopped and it became a hobby of whenever we would travel especially so my husband and I love traveling, especially during our, our, our anniversary, so we would go down to South Island, and we love to explore, you know, the different parts of South Island, and we would just do a lot of road trips. And I would do a lot of photography then like when we would travel. But other than that there was little or no time to actually pick up my camera. Yeah, yeah. So when you're when you had your daughter, and you and you sort of you, this renewed sort of passion for your photography came back, how long did it take you to decide to make a business out of it? I guess. It took me like, a solid year and a half. Yeah, I've been thinking about it. Like when my baby, when maybe we came along, you know, it's I had more more time being at home. And when she was a baby, you know, like I would hold her, I would hold her when she naps, she was a bit huge and settled that she didn't want to sleep in on her on her bassinet. And so there's a lot of time where I would hold her and so I would have a lot of ideas. You know, and if I decided that every time she would turn every month when it was on the 29th which is her birthday is 29th of January. So on the 29th Every month we would capture I do it like a photo shoot for her. So and I managed to get getting my husband to come do the photo shoot as well with us. He Yeah, so every month I would do that. And it became I just became like, my passion grew, you know, like you, you just I loved it. I was able to edit her photos, you know, as she was sleeping, I would do a lot of editing. So it really I think it became a good platform. For what I do now, if I didn't have that I don't think I would have had the same passion and same kind of standards with my work. Yeah, so that was a big part of it. When she was born. I had that though. It became like a project for me. Something that I had going for me, you know. So that was nice. And looking back, you know, now she has these photos, and I could look back on them and see how much she grew. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's really special. I'm gonna ask how did you go on the 29th of February when it wasn't a leap year? Actually, there was a leap year on where she was born. Oh, me. 20 Was it? Oh, I remember I think I think there was. And then the following year, there wasn't. So after she turned one year, I kind of stopped doing it, you know? Yeah. It became too much, you know, like, she would start to move around. And it was it became impossible to kind of have her stay still. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but added the added element then of movement, even when she was about nine months old when she was searching. Yes, exactly. I had to have the most ridiculous props, like I would get socks in front of the camera and just to try and entertain her better to look at the camera. So I've done it all like moms would say, you know, my clients would say I don't know how you would able to get my capture my my baby or my little one because they're so you know, they're, they want to explore, they can't just sit in front of the camera. And I tell them it's that's not my style. I my my two year old is loves to explore, she would not sit still. And I don't believe in kind of forcing, you know the kids to kind of sit there and stare at the camera and look at look at the camera to smile because the more they explore the more happy they are, the more natural they are. And then you don't need to guide them you just follow them around and kind of be ready when that when that moments there. And that's the thing. That's the challenge for me as a photographer is to catch those moments without them having to be conscious of the camera. Yeah, absolutely. And you'll see like their true personalities comes out because they're not they're not thinking about the camera in their face. They're just exploring and being living their life like normal. No, because when when you ask people to pose or when you ask people to smile, they kind of they post but they once you say okay, we'll take a five min. In a break, they relaxed. They tend to like that. And it's the most candid posts. And I like to. I like to take snaps of that too. Yeah. Yeah. When I say you know, it will take a five minute break. I don't actually mean that. I just wanted to relax and then I snapped them photos. But you know, you get a lot of you get a lot of good photos out of us. Oh, yeah, I bet. Yeah. Cuz we might see it like, as soon as, as soon as you're conscious of the camera is you do you tense up? And then you, you think, or how do I have to look? So you're thinking, you're trying to change how you look? You're not just being itself. So yeah, I have that. That's really, that's a great idea. When you're talking about doing your photos with your daughter, you said you had to have something going on for you. Was it important for you at that point to have something for yourself? Yeah, it was, I think, because especially when COVID hit, you know, and we were doing a lot of lockdown. It was important for me to have a project for myself. That is outside the routine of taking care of baby taking care of everything, you know, running the household. Yeah, you know, something that was for myself. A break? Because then once I, once I had that, it was kind of like I was able to, I don't know, be more relaxed. Yeah, when I take care of her, and she could feel that. Yeah, that's really that's a very common thing that moms talk about. If they've got something for themselves, then when they when they return to their parenting. They are, they're relaxed, they're less stressed. They've got more patients like all this, you know, you feel you feel like yourself, your needs have been met, so then it's easier to sort of meet other people's needs, I suppose. That makes Yeah, yeah. And you also mentioned dancing before, what style of dancing, like I used to help cop was because I was in the wedding industry. And I have a lot of friends during you know, that time. My age, it was the marrying age. Like, you know, 22 So I had a lot of friends. They're like 20s and 30s. So I would help them choreograph their first dance. But it was like a mixture. It was really a mixture. I did interpretive dancing. I at some point did hip hop, but now something like that, but it was a crucial part of me like growing up. I dance since I was able to walk. Yeah, right. Yeah, so it was it's kind of just been but I never turned that into a business. It was it was it was basically I'm I have this creativity that I need to kind of express and whether that be in dancing or music, because I play the guitar also, or just anything but the photography, I think that was really something where I could it worked a lot for our schedule. Because with my photography, I could whenever I have to drive out to the beaches to meet my clients and do a photo photo shoot there. I get time for myself, you know, when you drive out there when you drive back that hour of session where you're just you're not thinking about anything else. But you're, you know, the people in front of you their story there, you're able to share life with them in that hour that you meet them and get to know their family a little bit more. I think that's so special, but that time away from my family enables me to come back and sorry, that's okay. That's okay. enables me to come back home and just, I missed them. I missed them so much. And I'm excited to see them. Yeah. So it's like, you have this renewed energy when you come back. Yeah, brand new energy. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. You mentioned about what works for your schedule. So how do you how do you schedule your clients around? Yes, so I do photoshoots and the weekends or at night, because sunset right now it's not until 845. So usually I come out at seven 730, something like that. So it works so well. And on weekends as my husband can watch her, and it's good time for them to bond. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm not at all worried. Yeah, you can relax and do your thing. You said you're not thinking about what's happening back at home. You're you're concentrating on in front of you. Yeah. Your mom still with you in in New Zealand? Yeah, she is. Yeah. Yeah. So she's for sometimes she would she would be with them. Yeah, she would be with her. We call her. Lola. Lola. Is grandma in Tagalog? Oh, that's special should be to have it with these two. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And obviously, she's I'm an I'm an only child. So she's, she loves spending time with her only granddaughter. Yeah. And you mentioned you've got your husband, obviously, you've got you've got some good support around you to be able to, to make it work. Yeah. I definitely, I don't think I'll be able, because my husband is my biggest support when it comes to my photography. He just pushes me to, you know, keep going and just encourages me, you know, and he loves that I do this. So it helps a lot when you have huge support like that. Because when you start a business, it's there's a lot of hurdles that come along the way. And it will really kind of question why would you do if you still want to keep going with what you're doing? But having support from your family from your friends it? Yeah. It's a big thing. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you ever sort of experience mum guilt or have any thoughts about mum guilt? That topic at all? Yeah, I, if, if we did, you know, I had a look at like, the definition of mom guilt. Because I've heard you know, you you hear once you become a mom, you hear you hear that term. It was a foreign concept to me before I had my baby, you know, and I looked it up answers, you know, where is that feeling when you feel like you haven't done enough or you're not doing? You think you're not doing everything? Right? Like there's something that that needs? That you're not? You, you feel like you're not doing everything right, that there's something missing? Yeah. So you have that feeling? And if by that definition, yes, I there, there have been moments, of course, where you feel like you you're not doing the right thing, because there's no manual that comes with, you know, being a first time parent. Everything is you to you. And even before when when I was pregnant, you know, you have friends, families, and they mean well, they give you advice, but you don't know exactly what it's like until the baby comes. And some things apply to you. That don't apply to other moms. Yeah, no, you do. Yeah. You deal with what comes in your child. Your children have different personalities as well. So you adapt to that. So yeah, there have been moments where I feel like oh, you don't know what I'm doing. But a big part of of the way we cope with that is our faith in God like my husband, I have such strong faith in God and it's it's a big part of how we parent and how we cope with the struggles and the challenges that come with it. I think all of us have. You know, we all have our different challenges when it comes to parenting with every stage. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then in terms of your work, do you sort of feel like I shouldn't be doing this? I should be home with my daughter, like, Does that ever crossed your mind? Or you're like, No, this is my thing. I know she's fine. It not at the moment, because of the schedule. With my photography, I think it's a nice balance. And that was one of the reasons why I'm not going to wedding photography. Just yet anyway, I'm not sure if I ever will. But with my with a solid photography, with my niche with families, and you know, maternity sessions, even like newborn and couples, like engagements I can I can do engagements that the type of sessions I do allows me to just be away from my family for a little bit of time. Majority of the work I do for my photography is actually either the editing or the admin around it. And I can do that at home. I can do the editing when she's napping when she's asleep at night. Yeah, I do the admin around the clock kind of around her schedule, basically. So it works well, because I have time away for a little bit from them. And I'm also able to do a little bit of work around her schedule. So right now it went because I'm not doing wedding photography, it works so well. But if I do, it's going to change a lot because wedding photography is a whole different ballgame where you're away for like the entire day. But even as I think about how I'm going to do that I need to prepare you know, food for her before I go out for the day. And then you don't come back until very late at night. Once the wedding has finished. And then even after the event, you have to backup the file. So if even as I do sessions now, after I come back, I always do backup. So you have to backup the raw files, save them in multiple storage, because the worst thing that can happen is have your photos deleted. You can't get back in time. But yeah, no film, there's no way to I mean, with digital files. Now, you know, there's some way to kind of retrieve some if you've lost them. But I don't ever want to go down that path because I have lost files before not for photography. But when I was studying, I would lose like reports and essays when my USB or laptop crashes. And it's not a good feeling. Oh, no, it is. It is the worst feeling in the world. I did it the other day. Actually, I was I don't know how I did. I was writing on a website. And then somehow I clicked back on my mouse and was like, how did I do that? And then it went back and everything just disappeared. So I thought I'll go forward and it'll be there. And it wasn't I was like, Oh, I just do it again. Anyway, I'm digressing. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. So the other thing I'd like to chat to moms about is identity. So how the concept of themselves might have changed when they became a mum. And you've sort of talked a little bit about it was really important for you to have that creative outlet, doing doing your photography when your daughter was younger, how did you sort of feel about that? That concept of identity change? It's, I mentioned before that like, my husband and I have such strong faith in God and my identity is also rooted on that. And yes, I'm a wife, I'm a mom. I'm a friend, I'm a daughter, but first and foremost, I'm a child of God. And when when I my beliefs, my belief system, my my faith in God, the truth, his truth from from the word it fuels everything that I do in fuel was how I I take care of my husband. It fuels how I become a mom For my two year old, it was how I do my craft, how I take care of the clients that I have in the work the standard of work that I do. So my identity because my identity is secure, and that it helps kind of it helps me figure out all the you know, the challenges, the how I navigate the different parts of my life? And, yeah, it's, it's definitely I would definitely say, you know, I have this thing, when I talk to my friends, where they asked, you know, you, you go from here to here, when you're engaged and from your from being engaged to being married, you go from here to there, it's like a step up. In terms of like, you know, more responsibilities, the different changes, you have to adapt to live a different lifestyle. And then when you become a parent, it's more like, there's this whole 360 Yeah, or one AB, just a huge turn of your life, that lifestyle is completely changed your your, so your identity definitely changes. Having a kid changes you, you know? Because suddenly, you don't look at everything the same way. Hmm. Even as you go. In every decisions that you make, you now have a little one to think of you now when you go to with my husband, I used to go to mall to, you know, around the malls in shopping. And we never really noticed parent rooms. When he became a parent. Yes. Like, where is the best parents? That kind of when, when you didn't have a kid kind of bypass you. Yeah. You just know about those things, right? No, it's not. And now when you go to when you travel somewhere, you used to just think about where you where your destination is. But now, as a mom, you think about all the different. Is there a playground nearby? Is there is it somewhere accessible? You know? Can I take my Prime Day? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you're Yeah, you're definitely your identity definitely changes in terms of you don't think the same way. You have somebody that you care for now, it's not just about you. It's not just about your husband or your comfort. It's, it changes completely changes. So yeah, yeah, it's about navigating those identities, you know? Yeah. I like the way you put that, that your faith helps you. Helps you position like helps you navigate that you've always got some solid that you can come back to. Yeah, that's always there. Yeah, that's really nice. I love that. Yeah. That's because it's it's so it's so hard. It's all the changes that you have to go through it's hard enough as it is, it will definitely challenge like the way you think it helps you, man the learning. I mean, how much have I grown in the two years that I've had, you know, my toddler Yeah, it's it's just and the learning curve is like dude, like straight up in the air like you don't even get a warm up to it. It's just like, No when the during the day we when you chatting or you know, you you obviously have a connection to your clients, you don't just, you know, you don't just go snap, snap snap. You've talked about how you like to chat with them and get to know them a bit. Do you sort of find just say you've taken a photo of like a couple, like a pregnancy shot. And then you make them when they're, when they've got their baby? Do you find that people sort of share how they're going and how like the adjustments like do you do come across this sort of identity shift or change when you're chatting to your clients as well? Yeah, definitely. And because the you know, you I don't like to pry. I kind of they when they ask me a question about my life, or you know, I tell them about my kid I share stories about My baby and and they in turn share stories, you know how they're able to relate to that? And yeah, you see how it changes, it changed them. There's this connection also when you both know your parents, there's this kind of mutual understanding. And you know, you don't need to kind of say it, it's their fat connection where you know, you understand you understand exactly, you know, it might not be exactly the same story. Again, different babies different style of parenting, different exposures, different kinds of help that they get, or I get, but I think the main, the main thing that I always hear is the complete change of lifestyle. You know, it definitely changes you as a person. Yeah. Oh, gosh, it does. Amazing. It's hilarious. When you think back on what you used to do. I always say to people, I feel like I wasted so much time. Because when you have a child, it's like, any little bit you can get for yourself. Like, what can I do with my time? I still think that also I say I say to myself, I had so much time on my hand before I didn't even realize it. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You just you didn't realize that? Nothing's free life, like, and then all of a sudden is like, oh, yeah, and now now it's not your schedule anymore. Yeah. Especially when you have little ones you know, it's definitely not your, like, time anymore. It's just you have to you cater, you cater first for your child, what do they need? How can I work around around this? So yeah, that's been, that's been an adjustment also, especially now that that pursued, you know, my photography, you do, you do need to. You can't just pick up your camera up and go and come back and then do all the other work that you need to do. Right. When you want to do them. You have to work around your baby schedule, because there he's she's still my priority. She's, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's not like she can wait, like, you know, you just stay there while I do my thing. You'll be like, this doesn't sit there. Okay. I just need to backup my files. And then add that Do you understand this? You'll just look at me and say, milk come on priorities from priority. She'll point at the cupboards and say, yum, yeah. Which is food. And, okay, I'm gonna have to do this later because she's a sweetheart Can I ask you a little bit about having grown up in the Philippines will only listen to you were a little bit. What's the culture there like in terms of mothering? I was speaking to a lady the other day, who's from her, she's from China. And she said, mums in China, maybe not so much these days, but certainly in like her mum's era, their job was just to look after the children and look after the family, they didn't have any sort of interests for themselves. They weren't pursuing, you know, art or music. Their job was just to look after the family. Is there any sort of anything you can share around that in relation to the Philippines? What sort of culturally like mother's roles would have been? Yeah, we are very communal people like we we a lot you would see when you go to the Philippines, you will see a lot of families like living together with their in laws, or even even if they're not living together in the same house. Their houses are pretty much nearby. Like right next to each other. Yeah. So not all, but there's a lot like that. And you know how there's that saying, you know, you you raise your kid. What is that saying? Makes you feel a village? Yeah, it takes a village to raise this kid. Yes. That's exactly like Philippines. Yeah, you have that village. Everyone kind of helps out. Um, and they the concept of, you know, sleeping in a separate room is very, it's not popular there. One because sometimes the circumstances don't allow you it's Philippines is is not like New Zealand where you you have the luxury sometimes of having multiple rooms in the house sometimes, you know, you go into provinces and there's just one room and all of the families stay there. And that's the kind of, you know, for a lot of families that's the reality that they have to deal with. So yeah, co sleeping is not an option. I mean, you know, it's it's the only option. Yeah. And then so the kind of parenting that they have it's a lot of a lot of people help out which is a good thing which you get a mums get a lot of support in that sense. They can also have help you know, they can they sometimes have their their animals or their their own moms that come like almost every day that helped you know, who can help them out? Yes. How am I just making sure that we know he's still there. And this is kind of like it I mean, this this type of I guess, as as we talk and she's in the background, that's kind of how our community that's that's it. So you can't you engage them in every activity. They are they socialize like that there. They grew up there with their cousins and their their siblings together. They go out of the house and all the kids are on the street. Yeah, even even now, even at the age of having cell phones and, you know, computers, you still I love that about the Philippines, you go out of the house, and they're still there playing. Yeah, you see the neighbors kids? And yeah, because it's the kind of environment it's the kind of community that they have. Probably not right now with COVID, though. No. Oh, different story, hi, all different stories, or when the pandemic there and it's completely and completely changed the world. And on that to your daughters, too. So you've basically she the only life that she's known is during a pandemic, like that would have been challenging for you. I mean, you did mention before about having your, you know, your photography is sort of your outlet, during the pandemic, but literally her life has only existed during the pandemic, like that's extraordinary thing to think of, isn't it? Yeah. It's yeah, let's put it this way. We had so many lock downs. And then the last lap locked down and it's the, the longest to my husband for a year he's been telling me you know, I think we should we should build the deck, you know, just for the little one. I keep saying no, I'm not back at work. Yeah, it's a huge investment. I don't think we should go for it. And then after that locked down, I said to him, let's contact somebody to build the deck, because this is to go out and expel all that energy. She just needs to be out out of the house. Let's build that back. Oh, yeah. That's it in a nutshell. Isn't it? Really? Yeah. They need to you need she needs to explore she needs to play with other kids. And yeah, they need that stimulation. Otherwise you as a mom go crazy. Oh, yeah. It's like cabin fever. You're just trapped Correct. Right now I've got a list of all they'll be nice to do, you know, list for my photography. One of the main thing that I want to I want to launch go for it to go live is my website. I mean, I've been wanting to have a website to showcase all of my work there, you know, in one place, because right now I have my Instagram and I have my Facebook page, but I'm working on my website. Yeah, but I'm gonna throw in that maybe podcast in the future. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So this is the thing, isn't it? Like, I've no, there's no, when you're in your creative person, like, you've talked about your dancing and guitar and photography, like, there's no limits to it, you know, if you want something, just do it, you know? Oh, great. Yeah, absolutely. And I think creative people are really good at doing that. Just giving things a try, you know? Yeah. And mostly without expectation, you can just try something because you think you want to try it, you know? And if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. And it's like, oh, I tried. You know, yeah, you can't you don't look back and say, what if? You know, the what ifs? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's another thing with now I'm a mom, I'm able to stay at home with my that's another thing why I decided to pursue my photography is i, it enables me to stay with her. Yeah, you know, it's not it's, I don't do it only for the financial reasons. But I can't ignore the fact that it also helps. So it's, you know, this is the timeout I have when I was working before my photography, I always wondered, oh, what would it be like to you know, have my own photography business, but like I said to you, it was more of a hobby thing, I was never going to turn this into a business one because I was too scared to I was more comfortable with just shooting for myself, then also providing it, you know, professionally asked for clients to have that expectations. But now I'm in the season of my life where if I have the courage, you can actually you're able to do it. You know, it gives me that platform, because now I have the time. Whereas before, it's mostly Oh, one day, maybe? Yeah. Whereas now, I'm in it, you know? Yeah. That's awesome. Good on. Yeah. That's good. You gave me opportunities they gave me you know, the opportunity to come meet you and talk to you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I tend to, you know, meet a lot of people that I wouldn't have met through my photography, and that alone is a blessing to me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I feel like that with this podcast, like, I'm talking to people that I would have had no reason to talk to you ever before. And it's wonderful meeting such amazing women, and learning so much. Like I love learning, particularly about, like, I love photography, I used to, I never did it professionally. But I used to take, do photos for weddings and stuff back in the day where it was on film. And I love the details of stuff like I was really drawn to, you know, like, the photos of the, you know, rings and like people's expressions, watching the wedding and things like that. I loved that. But it was just, you know, a hobby that I did a couple for friends, but my main thing is easic. So, when I talked to artists, it's so inspiring for me, because I'm like, Oh, I could give that. Like it's just, it's opened up all these new new ideas for me, and just fun things I can try for myself and learning. I really, really enjoy it. It's so much fun. That's good, because you need you do need that outlet. Hmm, absolutely. Yeah. Even if it's, I mean, some people resort to like cooking or baking and other people and to trying out different things that they've never tried before, or like me something that they've always wanted to try but they have been so afraid to try but also don't have the time nor enough motivation to actually pursue it. Yeah, and now and now that I do you know, I find and and my husband said you know, because I've been going back and forth on deciding whether to pursue you know, to pursue this business or not. And he said to me, you know, at least you won't have to look back and said you didn't try if it didn't work out then didn't work out it was a time in your life where you had you know, you were able to just try something new and just try and enjoy it just try enjoy the process all the things that you learn from it and I have been learning so much so much and I'm sure you have to as you started this journey Yeah. Oh, that's great. And like having the support like you said before, that's just you know, you can't you can't do things without having someone like that. Yeah, yeah, no, you can. Yeah, I put on him. You, thanks so much for coming on. It's been such a lovely chat this morning. And it's lovely to have some of your daughter's energies with Jana, thank you for having us. I'm sorry, I couldn't stay in just the one room and oh my lord, in order to oh, I mean, this is thing that we need people to. It's mum life, isn't it? It's what we do. The realities of being having to try and work. That's it, isn't it? But we make it work, don't make it work, whatever works. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Elise Addlem Australian philosopher + feminist S2 Ep75 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I am very pleased to welcome Elise Addlem to the podcast, a philosopher and feminist based in Europe, and a mum of 1. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy (MA) and Early Childhood Education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she is developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism and general philosophy for parents. She believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday, lived experience. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas and encouraging others to challenge norms and think critically, and putting ideas into practise in realistic and achievable ways ... and bring to the public the academic ideas without the condescension and jargon. Connect with Elise Instagram / YouTube / Website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for tuning in. It's a pleasure to have you back if you're a regular listener. And if this is your first time, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Today I'm pleased to welcome Elise Adlam to the podcast. Elise is a philosopher, and a feminist based in Europe, and she's a mom of one. Elise is an Australian philosophy educator with a background in academic philosophy, and early childhood education. After teaching philosophy at an academic level, and to the public, and working with kids, Elise became passionate about public philosophy. In particular, she's developing resources and courses on feminism, neoliberalism, and general philosophy, parents, she believes that philosophical and intersectional feminism connects directly to our everyday lived experiences. Elise is passionate about sharing her ideas, and encouraging others to challenge the norms and to think critically. And to put those ideas into practice in realistic and achievable ways. And to bring to the public the academic ideas. Without the condescension and jargon. I discovered Elise by Instagram. And I really resonate with her thoughts, and her opinions and also the ways that she shares these. And I really hope you enjoy hearing from her today. And I encourage you to check her out on Instagram, her YouTube and her website. The music used on today's podcast is from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, M Anderson, and her husband, John, thanks so much for tuning in. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks so much for coming on. At least it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you today. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on your Instagram. I'm sure you might be on other platforms. But I've come across you on Instagram. Yeah, what you're doing is awesome. And I just had to have you on the show. We're not going to spin it that you're an artist of any kind. Yeah, because you do creative to get your point across. But I just wanted to have you on because you're one of those people I really resonate with. I really love what you're sharing. And the way you share it too. It's very concise and straightforward. So without me blabbing on can you tell us what your sort of pedagogy and childcare? Your your? Yeah, like your one on one? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, my background is in childcare, I worked with kids for quite a long time. I studied it a little bit. And then I worked as a nanny for a long time. And that was at the same time as studying for a lot of years, I was studying philosophy. So I did my undergrad degree, that took me a long time, then I did my honours that we have in Australia. And then I did my masters overseas. And so yes, I was really interested in academia. But as I went on, I really came to become more interested in what I like to call public philosophy. So basically bringing philosophical ideas to the public. And I thought it was really important to do that in a way that's digestible in a way that people can understand. Because often it seems like philosophy is something that's really removed from society and people will purposely or not be talking about things in a way that's really hard for people to understand. I think that it doesn't need to be that way. And I really wanted to try and communicate things to people in a way that makes sense. Because why do we have all these big ideas, these ideas about society if we can't communicate them, as well as that? When I worked with kids, and then when I became a mother, I really got focused on this idea of how we can communicate these ideas to children and to parents because I think the children have these amazing minds where they're so so open minded. They don't have these constructs in their minds yet, like we come to Have which societally given to us, and which we are given through certain binary ideas through the schooling system, and just through the progression of, I guess how our, how our minds grow. So, yeah, that came to be really interesting to me. As well as that, obviously, the as well as that political philosophy and ethics is really important to me. And, obviously, so many problems with the capitalist system with patriarchy, and things like that affects parents, particularly mothers. And so all of that I kind of try and bring together in this way that I can, yeah, I can share with people on social media. What sort of got you first got, and it's interesting. I didn't realize you're in childcare before. That's my I was in childcare for nine years. Now, I'm in the kindy system. So I'm sort of switched into. Yeah, it's very interesting. But what got you interested in philosophy? Do you remember sort of what was the Yeah, I do. I do. So yeah, the childcare thing. I mean, to be honest, that was a way for me, because I always love kids. That was a way for me to work while studying because I mean, to be honest, I just didn't want to do retail or something like that. For years. I loved working with kids. And I thought, why not do that at the same time. And it's such meaningful work. It's really difficult work. But it's so meaningful, and impactful with the philosophy, so I grew up in a working class background, and I didn't even know philosophy existed until I went to uni. I was the first one to go to uni, my family. I'm the oldest of my siblings, my sister also ended up going. But yeah, I discovered it before that I was really interested in literature and writing. And they're really linked, I think, because it's both to do with ideas. So yeah, I took that first philosophy class in first year, and I kind of had my mind blown. I thought, well, you can talk about all these ideas and think about things. And then it took me a few years to sort of realize, yeah, this is something I'm really interested in and want to do. But it is quite a, it's quite a tough area to be in, in the, in the sense that I mean, you probably know, within neoliberalization of education, all levels of education, higher education, really, the number of positions in the humanities departments is very, very low. And like, the grind for academics is really, really hard. And so yeah, so actually, I'm completely obsessed with it. But I'm still wondering, Am I going to go on and do my PhD? I think I have this pardon me, you know, this academic part of me that really wants that, because that's like, you know, like to have that recognition from academia that I was trying so hard in. On the other hand, after I had my daughter, I really, you know, I thought, I don't want that life. I don't want the life where I'm just grinding away, barely seeing my daughter. And if we have more kids having to move everywhere, just for these jobs where you barely get paid anything. You don't have job security. So yeah. I think that I kind of had to work through my ideas of what it means to do philosophy. And and yeah, and I think this idea of public philosophy is kind of a white assault that I like that it's like, yeah, you're not completely consumed by that. Academia world where at night, it's almost like the outside world doesn't exist. You go to high school, you go to in you go to uni, and you stay in this system forever. You've come. Like, honestly, I had a few years out of it anyway. Because I, I went, I went straight from school to uni. And then I kind of had, I realized that because I initially thought I wanted to the journalism then I kind of dropped out ahead a few years and then I went back. And I kind of did it a slow way. Just because I had to work and things like this as well, you know, like, and then yeah, I, but what I've observed and experience with people, there's this there's a really insular quality to academia. I don't know about other departments, but particularly in philosophy, maybe because it's to do with ideas. It can become really abstract. And sometimes the things you hear are just not related to people's real lives, you know, like, there will be people should do this, or people should behave this way. It's just not recognizing the real nature of life, the real struggles people go through, you know, like, because there is a elitist quality to university, and there are still a lot of privileged people there. Mostly, of course, white men, especially philosophy has mostly white men. And I mean, I'm a white woman, you know, I'm not, I'm not a black or brown woman, I'm, I live in a smaller body. So I also don't experience I'm able bodied. So you know, even having said all of that, I feel like I experienced a lot of I don't know whether I would call, I wouldn't call it discrimination, but just little microaggressions and things like that, you know, you feel it, you feel that you're not the main type of person. So, yeah, so that's another one of the reasons why I think I maybe don't suit that, huh. Yeah. And like you said before, there can be this sort of particular way of speaking, like you said, whether it's deliberate or not, it's almost like a condescending way that like, you don't know this. So I'm going to say, I really, really dislike this. And I admit that I drank the Kool Aid as an undergrad. Because I think because when you're learning and you're thinking, wow, this is so exciting, I need to be, I need to be that person that I admire you who can talk in this way. So using all these neologisms, all the all these new words that have been made up? And, yes, sometimes, for sure, that can be helpful for the theory. But if you've made up a term, you can also then explain what that term means. And yeah, I just think, I guess that some, some people are, you know, really made for theorizing, and some people are made for teaching. And I feel like maybe teaching is my, my thing. You've got a very sort of down to earth approach with that, like, you can see that it's an important thing. And we've all got to, you know, challenge these, the norms, and this critical thinking is really important. But then you actually have to be able to put into practicing in your life in a realistic way. You can't just be barking theories and ideas at people. To be honest, yeah, I mean, some people do do that. And it frustrates me a lot. This is one gripe I have, of course, it's not everyone. There are some fantastic people there. And, you know, some just amazing people that are so down to earth, and that really are fantastic teachers and are able to communicate things in a really clear way. But there are also a lot of people that just aren't interested in doing that, to be honest. They're not interested in the real world in there. Yeah, exactly. Well, to be honest, the all the ones you know that the other ones they've never been in the real world things you hear from people, you know, these older men who their father was in academia, then they were in academia, and they literally maybe have never caught public transport. Or they've never, you know, they've never done a job, they've never had to, you know, serve someone at a takeaway plate, or MCAS or something, or they've never had to, you know, get yelled at by a boss in retail, or you know, just those everyday things that are part of life for most people. And so then to then theorize what a good life is, or what we need to fix in the world. Wanted to ask you about you mentioned Neo liberalism, and that's something that you do know about a lot on your Instagram. Can you explain to people who might not be familiar with what it's about? Of course, yeah. So I think it's important first to talk about what liberalism liberalism is, and then neoliberalism came after. So liberalism, generally came from the enlightenment. So this was a movement in France, in Germany in the UK, in the 17th century, that focused on the liberation of people from a kind of, I guess, cloud of closed thinking now. The idea was that we should be free to To govern our own lives. So, thinkers like Immanuel Kant, John Jacques Rousseau, who some people might have heard of, they had these ideas that people should be able to govern their own lives, they should be able to choose what they do insofar as it doesn't hurt, but as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And importantly, they should be free to think, in a free way, not restrained by outside ideas. Importantly, at this time, their context was a religious society. So it's important to mention that we're still religious men. And this is the interesting thing, perhaps because of the times, but they, they believe that these rules shouldn't govern all of society. So that was super important to be. So to have your thoughts led by reasoning, by thinking does this make sense? Instead of buy doctrine from the church. So this was an enormous moment, because really, at the time, you know, people still couldn't read. So a lot of people still couldn't read, only the elite could read. So that means that if you were told something by a religious leader, that is the truth, you didn't come to truth, by some sort of scientific process or some process of reasoning, it was just what you were told. So this was a huge, huge moment. Then we also have lived in come to have liberalism as a political system. So this is a system in which in which people should be free to do what, sorry, people should be free to do what they want. Or sorry, I'll say it again, people should be free to do what they want, insofar as it doesn't hurt other people. And people should have their rights protected to be free. Now, neoliberalism then, is a political system that began in the 1980s. So in America, you had Ronald Reagan in the UK had Margaret Thatcher, who people probably might have heard of these people's names, because they're pretty important. Australia, I don't remember who we had. So basically, they were really pushing for everything to be privatized. The idea of near liberalisation is that anything that is owned by the government, any sort of welfare state, so a welfare state is like, where the where the government will give people a pension, where they'll give people disability payment, they'll give people payment, if they are without a job, they will give and all these other things like they will fund the schooling system fund, hospitals, even some things we don't even think about, like the Postal Service, ambulances, everything that is public. The neoliberal process, made all of these things private. So that means that companies, some, some rich person bought it. And then that is now owned by a private person. That means that there's no longer this sort of idea that it's a public good, or it's something that everyone should be able to use just because they live in this society. Rather, it will be something that you have to pay for, and that will be based on whatever the company decides. So this process was a really ideological one. And it meant that so many things were privatized, to varying extents. So we've seen the we see in the UK, and particularly in America that so so many things have been privatized, that society comes to disintegrate. So in Australia as well, we had it. But America is really kind of the hallmark of this because in America, even things like the Postal Service has started to be privatized, we see that the schooling system has just been absolutely gutted. And you know, teachers even have to pay for their own resources and things like this sometimes. The other important thing that I do talk about a lot. I hope I'm not explaining in too much detail. No, this is great. Okay, so the other thing that's really central to this that I love talking about is the idea of the neoliberal individual. So going back to the enlightenment, the idea of individualism is really invented, at least in Western thought. So like I said before, enlightenment thinking and liberalism was based on this idea that we should be able to be free as individuals. So then we start to have this idea of an individual, I think that now we probably don't even think about it because, you know, we just think we're all people. We're all separated. But this is actually a really cultural thing and a really I really within our historical context, some societies today don't have this idea, you know, they're more collective societies they don't think always i. So this was brought to light through this enlightenment process. And this kind of shows how these ideas do affect real life, because first of all these thinkers came up with them, then they come to be proliferated, or, or they reach the world, through governments and through leaders through schooling. And eventually, it becomes common sense thinking that we are just all these individuals who are separated from one another. And the most important thing is that I get to choose what I do, and I am in competition with you. In neoliberalism, this becomes even harsher. So like, like I said, before, under neoliberalism, there's really this idea that the government should not infringe upon our rights. Because if the government is doing anything to it, if the government is telling us anything to do, then that is immediately an infringement upon our rights. And it's interesting, because in philosophy, we have these two ideas. They're called positive and negative freedom. So positive freedom is my ability to act. So I am free to do, I'm free to do something. Negative freedom is something that was completely forgotten in neoliberalism. But it's something that's also really important, it's when you are given some restrictions that allow you to be more free. So for example, they protect you. So for example, you can really think about it, I think, a really easy way is when you think about a toddler, right? With a toddler we're always trying to do, we were always having to protect them from doing certain things, or we're always having to sort of given the conditions in which they can flourish. Because if that if they are just if they're just allowed to do anything ever actually, they can't develop and they can't become self governing people. Because they can't become people that can look after themselves as human beings that you need these restrictions on yourself. So other ways. Other things that would be examples of negative freedoms are like a schooling system, you have to, you have to learn this in this, these in these things, mathematics, reading, and things like that. So that you will actually be able to be more free in the world, because you have then have this logical understanding of how things work. You can read and write, and so you can manage yourself in the world. Neoliberalism kind of completely did away with this idea. And I think that that's a real detriment. So everything is rather just seen as a intervening on an individual who, who really needs to be deciding 100% for themselves all the time, what they should do. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's also Yeah, it's also a huge mistake, because of course, we are still living in a society and we, everyone has roads, right? There's still a push for good. There's still a social thing, we still always have stuff that is part of society that actually taxes and the government has given us. So I think it's kind of misunderstanding the world. But yeah, this is so important to me, because I just think that this really impacts every everything we do, really every part of our lives. It seems to me, sorry, that's not a way to start a sentence that sounds like I'm gonna say something really profound, but I'm not. I've never really learned about this in like a steady kind of way like I'm aware of. But I sort of find it so interesting that it seemed to start out as a good idea that you question things and you learn things, but then at some point, it's just gone to the extreme kind of like, when did it become a good idea not to support people in our society that need help, like, yeah, it just and that's, I think worth, like Thatcher has got such a poor reputation in a lot of cultures. Yeah, in a lot of circles, because she just, it was like, I don't know if I enjoyed watching her portrayal on the crown on that series. Yeah, it was fantastic. Ryan, I really liked it. If anyone wants to learn about Aaron in an accessible way, that's a really good introduction. It's not all true, obviously. But I also I also really enjoyed that because I think they did portray really well. How Yeah, kind of the her really special nature because she was a very special person, I think an interesting political figure, not one that I agree with a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting path for now. And it was interesting to see the conflict between, you know, two women I'm taking this in a different direction now. But in the term feminism, something that I'm really all over I love the other day, it seems like the other day because I happen so quickly. But when, when Liz truss became prime minister in the Yeah. And everyone was like, Oh, it's so it's a woman, we should all be so happy. And I felt like saying, but will we all happy with, you know, Thatcher? And she was yeah, you know, this this? I don't know. Absolutely universal. I mean, just because it's a woman. You know, it's really a simplification, I think. And yeah, I really agree with you. I'm exactly the same. I think just because it's a woman, it doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be fantastic. And I we still have, and this is the importance of I think when when feminists are being intersectional, which has, you know, this idea that we look at all these different ways that people are disempowered, different power structures. So yeah, she's a woman. But she's already within this power system. You know, so she and she already has these values. So, you know, she just because she's a woman, doesn't mean that she's immediately going to stand up for women stand up for black and brown women stand up for trans women, you know, urge poor women? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I thought, yeah, there was a lot of that. That was funny. That was a funny, funny few weeks in the UK, wasn't it? My gosh, I listen to BBC Radio, like at night. Overnight, I have an EN. And gee whiz, even they were just, you know, for country that everything's meant to be proper and seem to be right from the Yeah, I? Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I think my husband and I were talking about a lot. And we, I don't know, I kind of have an idea that it's like a bit of a falling empire. Like in the, in the past, you know, it was this world empire that really, obviously colonized everywhere, you know, an empire and in a terrible sense, usually empires a lack of that they do a lot of colonizing and all these terrible things. But yeah, it was an empire. And you know, they thought, the leader of progression and it's not that anymore, and it's interesting. Yeah, it's not in a very good situation. So nearly realism, bad putting it? We don't like it. We don't like it. Yeah. What, what's the opposite to that? Is there a term that Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that. Look, I never, I never like to just prescribe and say, Look, this is 100%, what we should do, we always say, to look at the individual conditions of a particular society. So every society is different. But in general, I argue that a social welfare system would be much better for a system of government where there are these basic protections for everyone. So all these things we talked about. So you know, childcare would be affordable, the minimum wage would be really high so that everyone can afford to live. Health care would be really accessible to everyone, there'll be a universal health care system. They wouldn't schooling wouldn't have public and private schooling, you would just have a schooling system that was accessible to everyone. There would be less of a gap between rich and poor. And at the level of decide ideology, or the idea of the individual, there would be less of a sense that we all need to be completely separate from one another, and more of a sense that we do live in a collective and that we are as human beings, in our very nature. We are collective beings and that we do flourish, we live better lives when we're more connected to one another. So there would also be these grassroots and bigger level structures that really facilitate us always connecting with people. I think that then people would also be flourishing, they'd be leading better lives, but they would also hopefully be less lonely and less isolated. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, this sort of it's such a weird Student thing, isn't it that we've all got to be in tune, we've lost this sense of, you know, it takes a village, you know, that still rings dry. So many countries, it literally does take a village because you've got everyone around you look at even in even my husband's culture, he's not Australian. I just see how people behave. And it's so different. You know, like in Australia, we kind of have this idea that we'll all help each other. And it's kind of true. But when I see it in these small collective cultures, it's just a totally different thing. Like you don't even I don't know you, you don't people don't even think about it. It's just part of life, you know, that you everyone's always helping one another. You never really feel alone. Sometimes it's the opposite, you know, you feel feel smothered by people. But I don't know, even things like, look, I think when it comes to being a mother, which is obviously something that both you and I are really interested in being a mother, you know, mothers are so isolated. In Australia, America, Canada, these so called Western countries, because we've been told we have to do it all alone, it doesn't make any sense. Even. You know, we have that these ideas that grandparents, you know, they shouldn't be around the family all the time. And I'm not I'm not saying that they have to have to be some slave to their grandchild or something. You know, everyone has their individual circumstances. But but you know, that other cultures do have a different idea of family where, where you're just always together and you're, you're coming popping in and out. It's not the scheduled thing where you know, you're like, Okay, well, Grandma will look after you on set at Saturday from two to four. And then I don't know, it's more just like, more of a floor. Yeah. So yeah, I think we've kind of gone wrong in that way. It's really, it's really sad thing. Yeah, I can, I mean, people are becoming more aware. And I think it's something we can change, you know, you know, if we, if we recognize a problem, I think we can start to change it. Absolutely. And that's what I love about this, like, you know, so many people on social media, and through podcasts, and all sorts of things that are saying how they feel about things, and questioning, you know, just because we've always done this a certain way. Why do we have to keep doing it this way, is really important. The really important thing is we haven't always done it this way. And this is something that is really, really what happens with ideology, you know, an idea becomes the main idea about something. And then the best the way it works, the best is that everyone thinks, well, we've always done this, you know, I've heard people say, like, with capitalism, a woman and older woman said to me, we've always done it this way. University has always been, you know, really expensive. And I said to her in your life, it was free. Like, in your own life, not not only so it's amazing in the cultural imagination, how we can forget. Yes, that is very true. That is a good point. Yeah. And it's almost like, whatever idea is at the forefront of the time, that that idea wants us to forget everything else. Sort of going down. Yeah. Yeah. No. with critical thinking, because you know, this idea of thinking about things and picking apart why something is the way it is, particularly Yeah, for kids because I think that you know, if they grow up always picking things apart. I hope that then there'll be a little bit less, like you said, brainwashed or a little bit less accepting of everything. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Talk about this idea of introducing children to these to the, to the notion of critical thinking and to social what is you had something really good on your Instagram? Social justice? Oh, social justice concepts? Yeah. I said, You should introduce them from the very beginning, rather than sort of when they're old enough to what we think old enough to understand them. Yeah, I guess my big thing for me is that we can really break this down into ways that kids can understand whether because, yeah, I worked with kids a lot. I have my own kid. And I think it's really fun to think about for me as a challenge. Think about how we can break them down into things Kids will understand. So you really got to bring them to their level. So, yeah, if we're going to talk about social justice concepts with little kids say toddlers, we got to think, what are we really talking about with social justice? You know, we're talking about inequalities in the world and the way that some people are prejudiced against other people. Some people don't get as good a life as other people. We're really talking about what's fair, aren't we, that's the basis and you know, actually, we talk all the time to kids about what's fair, anyway, because we're really, we're teaching them this, they don't sort of come out and have an idea we anyway, we have to teach them. So why not then bring it up already, you know, in ways, you know, when I've talked to people, um, for example, on my Instagram, I've collaborated a bit with this wonderful woman Kinesia, and she does work on anti racism. And she says that, you, you, you need to actually name the things you like pretending, not saying black, not saying that kid is black, that's not going to help anyone, if they are black. And there are differences, we need to point them out and point out how they're beautiful. And point out how they're great and interesting. So you know, from the very beginning, when we're reading books with kids, make sure that they're diverse books and say, Look, you know, that mommy has white skin, that Daddy has black skin, that mommy has red hair, that day has brown hair, it's sort of you know, everyone's different. And that's what's special about us. And that's what's beautiful. And then you can point out instances, you know, in the playground of like, people being, I don't know, maybe, you know, that kid was being mean to that other kid, because they're smaller than them. That's not nice. Because just because they're bigger than them, that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to push the person around. And they you're talking about power structures? Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, I think I'm not being naive when I say that all these things are connected, I think that you're, you're setting them up to think about these things. And I just think that children are so so capable of thinking, you know, the questions they come up with are just the most amazing questions. So we should just really kind of feed into that. Yeah. And, and you're right, like kids, they don't come out. Like, we were the same, you know, we were little the world has formed us into who we are by, you know, the concepts in the world about racism, and, you know, all those sorts of negative judgment of other people. Yeah. And if we can sort of be aware of that, and I don't know, not to that to our kids like, exactly, putting it. Yeah, like, Yeah, I think we can never be, you know, part of human nature is to group ourselves. That is something which, you know, I think there's always going to be, it's always going to be a process of learning and unlearning, and it's never going to be a thing where I'm like, now I don't, now I'm not prejudiced against anyone. I like to kind of pull myself I mean, take it that I'm always racist, you know, I have internally not on purpose, but I'm always gonna have inside me, or I'm always I always have misogynistic ideas. So I always have ideas about men and women that are based on their gender that I've learned, because these are internal, we're always going to kind of have them to a certain extent. And as much as we try for our kids, they will have different prejudices, or the same ones that continue. So it's also teaching them to constantly question those as well. And to say, it's not that not to feel guilty not to say that I'm a bad person, because of this, that doesn't help anyone. But just to say, look, I'm not perfect, no one is perfect, but we're trying to build a better world. And let's kind of all be vulnerable in saying that none of us you know, none of us have pure thoughts or something like this, you know, but we're all we're trying. Yeah, we were all doing our best. Exactly. We're all doing our best, be realistic and just try our best. Yeah, I think that children are capable of, you know, of taking on the complexity of the world. And you know, like, yeah, you're not gonna say, you're not gonna make it kids obsess about it, or something. You're not gonna be like, but also we, you know, and this is something that it's hard for all of us. It's hard for me, children are people and they're, you know, they have all different emotions, like everyone, they can't be happy all the time. And, you know, so it's not a bad thing that they feel sad. And I think when when we grew up often, there was this idea that you just shouldn't point these things out. You shouldn't talk about it. Yeah, at least where I grew up, and yeah, and yeah, but If you didn't see it, right, like, as a kid, you're kind of confused because you're like, why someone talking about this stuff? And then you think it's a bad thing to even address or talk about, I kind of feel like we're living in a different context now, because we live in a much more global society. And, you know, we have access, and our kids have access to people from all over the world via the internet, and, and I kind of knew that they might grow up having a more global sense. And having said that, yeah, I think the only way things really change in the end is kind of at a smaller level. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But I was gonna rely on it today, we decided it was a good idea not to use plastic straws. And on the, you know, it's just one straw said, you know, 13 million people, you know, so it's like, every single person and do something. And yeah, you know, it does start with little actions. And I don't think exactly, the value of those. Exactly. I'm always kind of the arguing that the minute that it needs to be we need to as individuals push for structural change, we need to stop, you know, governments and big companies from doing the things that they are because often with this, with our society being so focused on individuals, they, the dialogue on purpose is pushed towards these individual changes. So yeah, for us are important, but as long as they speak, all companies is still mining. And still, you know, as long as governments are still in Australia, you know, the government is heavily heavily embedded with a big mining companies. As long as this is the case, then, if we recycle, that's only going to do so much that's going to be both. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I want to read out one of the quotes that you have on your Instagram, completely relate to and I love it so much, I want to frame it and put on my wall, a mother's identity and sense of self is tied to the and then in brackets, lack of social recognition she receives for her labor. Now that basically in a nutshell, is how I felt. After I had my child, my identity went down the drain, because all I was expected to do was look after a child and I kept thinking, I'm so capable. I've worked full time I've done all this stuff. But now all society wants me to do is sit on the floor and play with this baby. And it just felt so weird. And I was challenged very much. So yes, yeah, that's, that's, um, yeah, I think so many of us go through this. And you know, on the one hand it is there are two sides to it. On the one hand, you have that. For some, for some women, this is so monotonous. And this is just, you know, women are told that they need to absolutely love being a mother every single moment. And this is a this is a patriarchal idea, because it's based on the idea that women are just naturally made to be nurturers. This is your God given role. And some women simply don't feel that and that's totally okay. And, you know, one person isn't meant to completely bring up a child. On the other hand, I think that capitalism really puts this emphasis on our job, and our identity is totally tied to our job. And I talked about that a little bit in the in the Instagram post. So identity is so tied to our job that when we go on maternity leave, have this complete identity crisis. You know, it's an existential crisis, that just means crisis related to our understanding of the meaning of life existentialism, yeah, meaning of life. So yeah, whole idea is what does my life actually mean? I'm not doing anything, and that's because doing is always within capitalism producing. Yeah, and also, I'm not earning a wage for this. And so therefore, this is meaningless. When actually what you are doing is you're contributing to society by bringing human beings into it. You know, you this is a huge part of it. I mean, this is one of the biggest ways that you are contributing to society, like babies fundamentally cannot look after themselves. So Yeah, so I think that we're kind of women and mothers are really put in this catch 22 situation you can't win either way, right? If you stay home, you want to be a stay at home mom, no, you're not doing anything meaningful, you're not producing. And then you're in your, you know, even some people will say, Are your bad feminists, which is completely not true, because feminism should be about women choosing what they do with their lives. So as they're not harming anyone else. And then on the other hand, you have, if you want to go back to work, you're abandoning your child, your your role as a woman is to look after your child. So yeah, women really can't win in this literally cannot win. I'm just looking for this quote, I had a guest last the last year or this year, I can't remember now. Charlotte Conde who's an an artist from the US, and she had a quote that I love, and I'm finding it because I've got to say it right? I can't, I can't not say it right, because it's awesome. Where is it? Hello, Charlotte, if you're listening, alright, here we go. This is it says, as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. It's exactly what's so well, what's because society somehow under capitalism has become the economic world. Yeah, it, it has become just that and not all these other aspects of society. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes the word care economy is used to talk about how this is that, you know, is also a sort of economy where we're producing but I think even we don't even need to use those terms. It's just the fact that nurturing one another is one of the main human acts in the way that we, you know, part of being human and living a good life. Not to mention that we, there's no way around it like either way. Either way, look after our children at home or other people look after children in a childcare center. It is still this care, right? Yeah. Yeah, people need that. So yeah, we is really the fact that they consider different things as a real problem. Hmm. And again, I think that's, yeah, this one off, like I sometimes bash men too much. But this whole it's not individual men. It's the snobbery. It's been going for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's not a new thing. But here's an interesting post. I can't remember who wrote it. Just last night, I was reading that. The whole idea of being a natural mother. Nurture is a concept that was created by men by the patriarchy. Exactly, I'm sure. Because that's yeah, I felt that when I was first giving my baby his very first bath, and did not know what to do. I thought, how, like, I remember saying to the nurse, I was verbally like, how do I push with the facewash? Like all these? You don't know, just your instincts. I'm like yeah, you got this tiny, tiny little, little alien looking thing. That's the funny thing. Yes. Somehow, when actually moms and dads Oh, parents, just learning the same as one another, you know, like, what? Yeah, when, when my daughter was born, my husband and I were both equally terrified of giving her a bath. Because you know this. So like, how do I hold them? What do I do? And it's like, yes, you're all learning together? Yeah. absolutely absurd. This idea. And you're right, it, of course, does come from patriarchy. Because there's this thing called Gender essentialism. I'm sure you kind of know the idea, or at least maybe not the term. So I was gonna say not probably not in those words, but I know, you would know it for sure. Yeah. So gender essentialism is basically just saying that certain qualities are inherently female, and certain qualities are inherently male. So the female ones would be nurturing, soft, emotional, kind of soft, and all these things and then the male ones would be hard reasoning. unemotional because of anger isn't an emotion in this context. And kind of separated from other people. And these ideas, yeah, are really fundamental to the way that we think about people of different genders and then yeah, becoming a mother. You're just so pushed into this. Because I guess in the workforce, you know, you can kind of there are a lot of still a lot of limits on women, but you can kind of go into a field that you're interested in that but with mothering, you're really, really pushed into that. I am a nurturer. I have to be a nurturer. And it's done. You know, like like with any things some people take more than that. And some people don't. And that's totally okay. And also, we're all learning mums and dads we all learn when none of us are just just born to be parents. Yeah, that's so true. And like, even with my two kids, like, I've adjusted the way I've parented them, because they're different people. So I'm learning as I go. Yeah, because not every child is the same everywhere, like every person is different. So it's an interesting concept, isn't it? I love all this creep. I love this stuff like this. Just why? Why do we think like this? When we started, get addicted to it, and sometimes people are, my friends are annoyed at me, because you know, you kind of have a normal conversation. You're like, Oh, I love that. Other things that you've sort of delved into, on your page? Obviously, politics, but diet culture? is a good one. Can you share some of your interesting thoughts about that about? Oh, yeah. And I noticed earlier, when you described yourself, you said, I've got a smaller body. Yeah, I live in a smaller body. Yeah, sorry, are you live in a smaller body? I'm not an expert on this whatsoever. The with this, just like, you know that I would never say that I am the person that everyone should be listening to about racism. I'm not the person that people should be fundamentally listening to about diet culture. But I do think that it's a really important thing to talk about. But look, it's women that are people that are living in larger bodies, that really the ones we should be listening to, because they're the ones that experience, the experience, prejudice, and fat shaming and all these things. So I'm trying, I'm really in the process of learning as well, I think. Because, you know, this idea that to be thin is good. And to be bigger is bad. This is something that's so deeply ingrained, you know, that like, somehow these are moral things. And also, somehow these are things that we can totally control. And, and if you're not, then you just need to try harder with them. So, yeah, so yeah, I like all of us, I grew up, just hearing from everyone around me, people are constantly criticizing themselves about their body, you know, and especially women, not only women, but especially women is such a collective thing we do you know. And then, of course, after you have a baby, it's the thing we do, and we just waste so much time focusing on our bodies, how much were the things we want to change and what we paid about our bodies and things like this. But the reason why I think it's important to talk about it as a diet culture, like as an ideology we have in societies because what we learn from fat people are people that are living in larger bodies. So I purposely use the word fat because, you know, when we grew up, we're taught you shouldn't use the word fat. It's like an insult to someone. And there are some activists like Aubrey Gooden who I don't know whether, you know, the podcast maintenance phase, it's one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah, yeah. You know, she, she kind of says this, this is a descriptive term. I believe that different people kind of have different ideas like about this. But what I've learned is that, yeah, it's just a descriptive term. And as well as that to say things like I'm living in a smaller body, I'm or someone who's living in a larger body with saying that this is just the body we live in. We're not. We kind of haven't chosen this. And we know, it's just based on genetics. It's based on, you know, our stress levels. It's based on what our social context is, you know, how much money we have the availability of food, how much time we have to prepare food or exercise, what sort of weather conditions, we have just so many things we cannot control, we fundamentally cannot control it. And so I think it's so important to talk about how there's so much prejudice against people who are not thin, just fundamentally and this is quite a new thing that is being talked about now. And there's so much pushback against it because we have so much obsession with thinness and, you know, the things that people talk about that they you know, the prejudice that they face, even just simple things like to get medical care you would know, from listening to maintenance phase, you know, the stuff that Aubrey Gordon talks about and how people you know, as kids, they will be put on diets. And everyone says that, well, that's okay. Because they just, you know, we just want them to be healthy. And the psychological effects of that are just terrible. So I think it's so important to talk about. So while Yeah, you know, while I, as a person, of course, have gone through a process of, you know, learning to have more neutrality toward my body, and things like this, and I am really trying to teach my kid to have a positive relationship with food. So for nothing, this is good food. This is bad food. Often Intuitive Eating is a term that's caught that's used around this. I think, really, though, the fundamental thing is that we need to think about these power structures and how fat people are just completely completely, you know, they really suffer from inequality in so many ways, because of this prejudice. And someone pointed out to me correctly that, you know, on social media on Instagram, so many people talking about intuitive eating and talking about diet culture, are people living in smaller bodies, and often white women, you know, so. So we, you know, I, we can only say so much about this, it's not really our authority, I think we need to really have a lot more diverse people talking about this, and, you know, to really listen to them. Yeah, I think that's really true. Similarly, with, like, we're talking about before about how I sort of speak to my children about things, we found weight, like I I'm a fat person, I'm not ashamed to say that because there it's like saying, I'm, I'm tall, and I'm fat. You know, they're descriptive. Exactly. This. Yeah, this is the thing. I think, also, it's like about everyone's own relationship with themselves, like, whatever, I guess whatever you choose to identify with. Yeah, is important. Yeah. But like, I explained to my kids that, you know, I showed my, my youngest son's never seen me, in a thin body, I was, I have a different time in my life. My weights fluctuated. But I showed him a picture the other day of when I was my lightest, and he couldn't believe it was me. And I said, I'm exactly the same person that I am, as I was, then like, I'm actually a happier and more settled person now. It doesn't change, like, you know, whether I'm good at something or bad at something, maybe, you know, Netflix is different. But you know, I'm still, but it's not like a moral a moral thing. It doesn't say that. Because, like, Okay, I live in a smaller body, but I'm not good, athletic, you know? And I'm not my diet isn't the best, you know, that's the other thing that like, no one ever is sort of looking at me eating pancakes or something and being like, oh, you know, gee, you should pick a healthier option or something. I mean, of course, like, maybe my grandma did, because, you know, like, that's that generation. And that was like, you know, just so ingrained for them that they're always kind of policing and worrying, maybe you will get bigger, maybe we'll you know, like as it but you know, no one, you know, for fat people that it's a public thing that can go in, you can go in public without being harassed in this way. And this constant microaggressions. And yeah, so I just don't think it makes sense. Because, yeah, people don't know what anyone's diet is. And also, it's irrelevant. totally irrelevant to other people what someone eats. I mean, I just think tying the moral thing as if it makes you a good or bad person is absolutely absurd. Like, how is it got to do with anyone else? Or whether you're a good person? Because like I said, it also depends on so many factors like, like, ultra if you're, you know, if you're tired parent, if you don't have much money, or so many things, and even if you even if you do have the ability to eat healthier and choose Not, not the word health isn't very good to eat more whole foods or something. If you don't, it's your own choice. You know, like, just like people choose to do different jobs, people choose to have leisure time doing different things. And it's funny, though, like, we talked before about this, neoliberalism is all about the self, but we're so obsessed with everybody else. It's like, yeah, there's you so big, like, has it always been? Yeah. People always. I think, I think it has, yeah, I don't like this something about, you know, like, I don't agree with the idea that, you know, society is worse than ever, in that sense. Because, you know, also even when we talk about neoliberalism, look, there were periods where we had greater social welfare and things like that, but fundamentally looking back In history, it was much worse, you know, because we were like, kings and staffs. We were there was just slaves and slave owners, you know. So that was funneling until there are still slaves in the world. You know, there are a lot. So, yeah, we have to put it in context like that. And when it comes to beat judging each other. Yeah, I think that now we just, it's more public because we have these avenues. But look, when we, I mean, I don't really know what happened before writing was a thing. But you know, you look at these old publications from few 100 years ago, newspapers, that it's all gossip there, it just does seem to be this human thing. to gossip about each other, and to compare and to judge. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, we, we kind of do do that. Yeah. And, but the difference is with this constant, it's more constant now. Because we just can't, I mean, think about the amount of different opinions and messages we're reading a day, or we're listening to a day, it's just so much. So I think that's why it can feel so overwhelming. Now, I'm gonna lead this into something that I talked to all my guests about, is this concept of, of guilt, or particularly mom guilt. Yeah. And the more that we talk about it, the more I believe that the whole culprit of it is this, what society expects us to be as mothers, so that we think we've got to do so we put these on ourselves, and when we don't meet them, then we feel bad about it. So it's an external construct. It's a thing that's coming at us. And I feel like, because of social media, it's just heightened the whole thing, because we can see so much more, you know, before we heard that, such and such down the road was doing such and we go, oh, shouldn't do that. Blah, blah, blah. There's she might not have known that. But now, it's, you know, people can tell each other what they think of them all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're right. It's, it's just constant. And also, it's, it's really difficult, because I think as well, we seek out connection on social media. And I think, and I think that, you know, for isolated mothers, we do kind of want to see others that are in the position like us that are also mothers at home with their kids, especially when they're little you know, when you're on maternity leave, or when you're in that really difficult phase, then you really want to think like, and you and like you said before, you're thinking what is my life, all I'm doing is Baby Alive. So on the way Yeah, and that is kind of maybe part of the reason why we do also we're so vulnerable. And then, and then we look to these images of other people and social media. And I think that there is just there are parts that are really positive, and I kind of try and stay stick to them. There are parts that are really saying that, you know, we just need to be good enough parents, and you know, we're all doing our best. And then there are parts that you know, they'll have this really nicely curated feed where it just shows them doing this lovely activity with the kids and they're all wearing matching outfits, their hair is washed, and they're like, there's no mess. There's no crumbs on the ground. There's no like, and you know that it's not real. It's not real. It's not real. But on the other hand, like when you're in this vulnerable mental position, you kind of can think how can how can I live that way? And how come I don't? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, for me personally, I don't know. I think in those early days of being a mom, like in the newborn phase, I never I never thought that you know that that was real. I never thought I want it to be like that. But at the same time I I definitely did. And I still do experience mom guilt just thinking because we have these were socially conditioned, like you said, to have certain ideas about what a mom should do. We have. I think that this is ideal of a mother that it's not even it's not a person. It's like this thought, you know, that we all have in our cultural thinking. And we compare everything according to that. And it's this idea that's been perpetuated by patriarchy so not by men, but by this idea that women are a certain way and that women are meant to do this. And women play a big part in perpetuating it as well. You know, women also perpetuate patriarchy we all we all do. But because this is they are ingrained thinking. And yeah, so I, I would think, you know, I think I would compare a bit more with like other mothers I saw around, you know, like, why does she look so well dressed and I'm wearing trackies and haven't washed my hair and have stressed pimples or whatever, you know, like, or why do I feel? Yeah, or I don't know, when my daughter started becoming an older baby. You know, my daughter is on super energetic side is she's amazing. She, I mean, she's just full of life and ready to go all the time. And it's completely amazing. Like, people always comment on it, but it's tiring. Yeah. Like, I mean, even. And so once she started, I don't know, I was so obsessed in love with her and still am. But as a baby, I sort of said to my husband, like, do you think? What would you think if I took longer maternity leave? So I am in a really lucky position that we've sort of could choose how long I would stay home with it. I don't get paid for any of that. And we're not like, in a insanely good financial position. Like we sort of said, Then during this time, we won't save. But of course, having said that, compared to most women in the world, that's a hugely privileged position. Like for me, for us to even say that. So yeah, and he was like, Yeah, of course. But you can, however long you want, you know, maybe till two or whatever. And then she got close to one. And I was like, starting to think, Oh, my God, I cannot handle these days of constant energy, like, because it would just be like, if we were at home, she'd be running around, and she would be kind of annoyed. And it makes sense, because she's, like, pent up, she needs to get this energy out. There's not enough to do in it. We live in an apartment. That's not enough. You know, in Australia, houses are super common. And a lot of the world people live in apartments, and it's fine. But um, yeah, and we would, I would take it apart twice a day, and it wasn't enough. And I felt really guilty because I was, like, I love my daughter. I should be loving this, when actually it doesn't make sense. But just because I love her doesn't mean I need to love every second of it. Yeah, yeah, we ended up sending out a daycare. And we're all she asked if she is thriving, you know, I, and I'm a much better parent for that. Sometimes I do still feel guilty. You know, my husband has to remind me. And it's interesting that he reminds me, he's, he's a very good feminist. You know, he, he understands why he wouldn't say that, because I think he always he doesn't like to say, you know, like, as a man, he doesn't want to say that. But I think he is aware of all these things and sort of tries to think critically about it. But anyway, he says to me why you feel guilty? You know, she loves it. She wants to be there. But then I don't know just decide. I guess it is just this cultural ideas of like, oh, but she should be with me, even though it doesn't make sense. If she was like, the other day she was home sick with me. And we're both are not in. Too much. You know, she wants to be there playing with other friends and doing the million activities they do at daycare. Yeah, I can't provide her with like, 10 activities a day. Yeah. Yeah, look, what you're saying is so, so true, and so relatable. It's that notion that, like you said, we love our children, but we don't have to love every second of this mothering roles that were you know, an expectation. We love every moment. We don't love every moment of anything, but yet, but then he was coming back. We're hauled over the coals if we say, if we publicly you know, say, Oh, gee, this was really hard today. Well, you want to become a parent. Yeah. Many people whinge about their job. Like they love their job. But jeez, I had a hard day. Oh, well, you shouldn't winter is reserved for us. Of a year, this is our natural role. That's what we're supposed to be doing it. Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. And I think that, yeah, like, like, we really need this outlet to just say this is hard, sometimes just like everything, and also fundamentally that, like, society doesn't really support mothers. And so because we don't have that village, because we don't have the it makes it that much harder. That's for sure. I don't know how many of us do it, to be honest, when you think about everything we've got going against us. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I'm, you know, in such a privileged position, and I'm really tired all the time. And like, you know, people do that so much harder, you know, and I had to know, it's, I'm just in awe, really, but they shouldn't have to, they shouldn't have to, you know, yeah, that's so true. It's frustrating, isn't it? Now I want to ask you, there's a great reel that you made a few weeks ago. It's great. I'm really that bad. This is a big thing for me, because I actually want to, I want to talk about this again, because this is like this obsession, absolute obsession with AD generation. I feel like all parents at the moment, and yeah, look, if you look at it, if you look at it in a historical context, like I say, I'll just kind of repeat what I said in the real because I mean, it's true that every generation has this crisis about some new technology that's going to destroy young people in the time of the ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, so this is like, about 2000 years ago, they thought that writing was going to destroy everyone, because the oral tradition was how we, how they communicated. And you know, through memorizing, that was a huge thing. Because of course, if you didn't memorize, then how were you going to ever remember anything? And how would ideas ever be passed on so that I will now we write it down, now the kids aren't going to remember anything, how, you know, this is going to be a catastrophe. And then, of course, then the printing press, we have books proliferated, that was a crisis. And then of course, the ones we know, which are like, radio, radio was a disaster. Now, of course, it's funny, because people think the radio is like a good alternative to screen time. Not watching. People just gonna be listening all the time. And then they're sitting there listening, and they're not moving around. And then TV, of course, which still goes on, and then the internet, you know, so I just think that yes, there are these recommendations that we have. But when we obsess over them, we're just really not thinking in context. Because we're, we're not thinking about the fact that, like, the alternative, we think that the alternative to screentime is like this, this 100% quality time with a parent or with some other caregiver, where they're just flourishing, and they're, you know, they're just absolutely taking everything in and learning. And, you know, for like, in the past, the alternative was probably working for a lot of children in the world. Now. The alternative is working, bored, either working in paid labor or working at home helping with the helping maintain the home. Or if it's not that, you know, it won't necessarily be this quality one on one time, all the time. And even if we talk about, even if we don't talk about that, we just talked about our own context. Then it, I just don't think it's the worst thing in the whole world. They don't. Kids don't need 100% quality time, all the time. It's impossible. And you're also going to have parents who are kind of regulated and feeling okay, and, and I really think it's part of this mom guilt, it feeds into this mom guilt thing again, because realistically, how are you going to cook dinner? With, you know, a few kids around you, especially if they're young? Or how are you gonna, you know, get all chores done? Or how are you audits? Maybe you just need to relax. It doesn't even need me that, you know, maybe you just need a minute. Yeah. You know, without them doing this. And I think that often the people that do do no screen time ever, at least the ones that I've heard are in a really privileged position, you know. And so then for people who have juggling so many things just feel so bad that their kids watching TV. I just think it just, I don't know, it's just guilt for nothing. And also, I just think that when we look back historically, like, maybe we won't be like, Oh, my God, look, they were staring at screens all the time. Maybe because that's just part of our world. Yeah, like springs are part of our world. Yeah. And the truth is, I think if you don't give your child a little bit of access to that technology, they're gonna get left behind at school. That's the other thing. Yeah. Because Because actually, they need to learn these skills. And that's kind of the approach we're taking that we're going to try and as soon as we can I don't know what age they started at, like four or five or I haven't looked into it yet, but it tries to do like kids coding for. Yeah, yeah. because, I mean, that's kind of gonna be really important. And yeah, that's the future. That's the world now, and I don't know anything about coding. And so I'm kind of like, in the dark already, you know. And so I just don't think that, yeah, that track, we're trying to protect our kids from things. I think rather, we just need to think how we can nurture them to safely and, and in a nice way, use those things. This is a really long bow to draw. But it's like, in the times when you'd say to teenagers don't have sex, it's like, well, they're gonna have sex, so teach them how to use a condom. Right? So Right, exactly, you just say just don't use it. And then they're gonna go on the internet themselves. Or watch shows? Well, anyway, they watch shows on the internet, go on social media, whatever themselves, and they're gonna have no understanding if you don't teach them, like how to tell if something is factually based How to tell if something is safe, you know, or something that is comfortable for them, you know? Or how to ask you if it's something uncomfortable on the internet happens to them to tell you and yeah, exactly like this creepy purple, they're selling to me or something. Instead, they'll just hide it. And then they're getting more on. Yeah, yeah. So I'd say waiting until they're teenagers to talk about their safety on the internet, and to let them have access. I think it doesn't make sense. That's not to say that I'm gonna let my kid sit there and do anything on the internet. Yeah, of course not. But but you got to, you've got to give them I think, begin was small levels of freedom and make it bigger and bigger in ways that they can cope with. Yeah, and it's no different to like, if you sent your kid out a little, a little toddler out into a big kid's playground, or, you know, just gonna go get run over and go sit and drink your coffee and not watch you know, it's, it's a part of life and trying to do it in a safe way. So your child's protected and, and if that's important, that communication to like, to bid for them to come to you and say, Hey, this happened, what do I do? Or how do I navigate this? Or, you know, it's so important that they keep talking to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you, of course, would have so much more experience with this. For me, this is all theoretical, and just thinking about it. Because I know it's so hard for parents to work, navigate this whole online thing. But like you said, we just got to, we got to acknowledge this is the world this is the world they live in. They don't, you know, they don't remember a world before the internet. You know, we, you and I remember when it shows our age, but we remember, you know, I had the time before the internet. And so I really think of it as something that happened. They don't think like that. They're just like, yeah, that's the world like when I my toddler she has she's on a tablet. And I don't think that it's some huge disaster that she knows how to, like change the video or something. You know, she can press it as like, yeah, like, because that's just like she's learning all these other skills in the world. Yeah, just letting her do that. Yeah, of course. It's so much easier for her. Yeah. And yeah, it's a story I often reflect on my seven year old we were talking once about how we used to have our phones on the wall so you remember to pick up the phone it only went a certain distance like the cord was stuck to the curly cord Yeah, and he said how did you play your games while it was stuck on the wall? I'm like what? Because had it because he's imagining I've got my phone stuck on the game's amazing I love it. It's not normal world that didn't have this stuff in it and it got it blows my mind like how different because especially because we live in a time when technology progressed so rapidly and now it's kind of seems like it's a little bit plateauing again, like we haven't you know they're trying to do like VR and things like that now but but you know, within the last kind of 20 years it's just been massive with the smartphones and with how fast the internet is and things like this. But yeah, it's so funny. This is really good channel on YouTube, which is something like teenagers try out old technology or something. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're a funny how like they're trying to use a video player and they're trying to work out like how you would put it in. And the funniest thing is when you know that cord comes out, you know the tape or whatever. The real inside it comes out and every one of our generation discuss art because then you have to fix it with a pen. I love that. There's a post it's like what's the relationship and they show? Only certain faithful over certain days you'll know what you find mental part of our life and now like, yeah, they just have no idea what it is. And yeah, it's okay to because, you know, things change and we don't need to, like be romantic about it, but I think you know, because but yeah, it is funny. It is quite incredible, but I think that they're gonna be, you know, do amazing things with this technology is such capability. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And again, I think if your kids not aware of it or understands or knows what even what it is like that is the future they will they will get left behind that's not present. It's literally sorry. Yes, it is. It's the present. It's happening right now. And if you can't engage in that way, you are just not going to be involved in the conversation, which is Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Bla bla what what platforms are you on? I know you're on Instagram. Are you on? Yeah. Yes, I'm on Instagram. I've just started a YouTube as well, because I wanted to do longer videos. Because obviously, all of these concepts. I think it's really fun. And I really like it that I can communicate things to people in a really short way on Instagram, but I'm, yeah, I'm on YouTube. So I'm, I'm, yeah, so you can find me there. And I'm on Twitter as well, if you use Twitter, and I'm just, I'm just developing my website, I hope that it will be out soon. And my kind of hope with this whole project is and this is why I started this whole thing is I wanted to move toward or incorporate doing courses for parents and really for people in general, but focusing on parents like feminism for parents and different critical thinking for parents things like that, and provide different resources. So yeah, I'm really working a lot on that at the moment. Yeah, excellent. I love that. I'll put all the links in the shownotes for people if they want to find you. I've just found that I mean, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. It's good fun. My. Yeah, it's good, fun. Look, thank you so much for sharing your ideas with the world and for communicating in a very non condescending manner. It's really lovely. Honestly, I think if there's one thing like, we're all learning, and I just, I don't know, we're all learning and yeah, and the more we can all talk about things, the better, I think but it's been so nice. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, no worries at all. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for mums of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast