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John Cuk Father's Day Ep. - US conductor + educator S2 Ep49 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Each Father's Day I like to do a few special eps. To mark the occasion in the Northern Hemisphere my guest for this special Father’s Day Episode is John Cuk, from New York, USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist, and a dad of 2 girls. John started playing the piano at age 5, played the trumpet in a band, sang in choirs, grew up going to the theatre, opera and going to concerts, even though his parents weren’t musical he was exposed to the arts. In school he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. He went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and The Manhattan School of Music as well as post graduate work from Westminster Choir College and gained his Masters in Piano Performance. John juggled being a professional musician with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the class room brought him. John's career in academia spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, Somers High School, Middle Schools in Chappaqua, New Rochelle, Rye and at The Anglo-American School in New York. He retired from his position as the Director of Choirs at Manhattanville College in Purchase, NY in 2018 after 16 collective years there. John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor, he’s conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Alice Tully Hall, Marmorsaal, Schloss Mirabell (Salzburg, Austria), Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ (Constanța, Romania), Kennedy Library (Boston), Música Sin Edad (Buenos Aires, Argentina), Temppeliauki, (Helsinki, Finland) and The International Youth Orchestra Festival (Lucca, Italy). Active in musical theatre and opera, John has held positions with Music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, Opera Estate in Rome Italy, Utopia Opera and Dell' Arte Opera in New York, New York, Buck Hill/Skytop Festival in Pennsylvania, Westchester Conservatory's Summer Vocal Music Academy in White Plains, New York, as well as Musical Director for countless musical theatre productions both at the high school and college level. Guest conducting includes Ridgefield Symphony (CT), Chorus and Orchestra of Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ Constanța, Romania, Orchestra Sinfonica di Bacau, Romania in Italy, Moldova Radio Symphony in Chisinau Moldova, National Chorale's Annual Messiah-Sing-In at Avery Fisher Hall as well as choral festivals for Western Connecticut, Suffolk, Duchess and Westchester Counties in New York. He is active as a coach, accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. John performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians and is currently a staff pianist for The Bronx Opera. It is always interesting on these occasions to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it is something that many of us are interested in, it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with mums. I'm very grateful for John for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing and music overall. Connect with John Connect with the podcast Music throughout this episode is taken from the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I present a special Father's Day episode to mark the occasion in the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. It is always interesting on these occasions, to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it's something that many of us are interested in. And it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with moms. My guest for this special episode is Shaun cook. He's from Connecticut in the USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist and a dad of two girls. John started playing the piano at age five. He played the trumpet in a band, singing choirs grew up going to the theater, opera and to concerts. And even though his parents weren't musical, he was exposed to the arts from a young age. In school, he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. John went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and the Manhattan School of Music as well as postgraduate work from the Westminster choir college, and he gained his master's in piano performance. John juggled being a professional musician, with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the classroom brought him. John's career in academia has spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, summers high school, middle schools in Topanga, New Rochelle, right and at the Anglo American school in New York. In addition, he retired from his position as the director of choirs at Manhattanville College in purchase New York in 2018. After 16 collective years there, John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor. He's conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, and Avery Fisher Hall, as well as in Salzburg, Austria, in Romania, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Helsinki, Finland, and in Lucca, in Italy, active in musical theater and opera, John has held positions with music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, opera estate in Rome, Italy, Utopia Opera in New York, New York, among others, as well as musical director for countless musical theater productions, both at the high school and college level. John is active as a coach accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. He performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians, and is currently a staff pianist for the Bronx opera. I greatly appreciate John's openness and honesty throughout this chat. And for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing, and music in general. I hope you enjoy the music you'll hear throughout this week's episode is in the public domain and therefore is not subject to copyright. Thanks so much for joining me today, John, all the way from United States. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me inviting me. So whereabouts are you over there? I'm in the Northeast. I live in a town in the state of Connecticut about an hour's drive north of New York City. Yeah, right. Do you get to go to New York very often. Does your work take you there? Or? Yes, it's not as easy a commute as I would I would like it anyway. But I have gotten to work in New York often because it is it is the center, you know, of all musical things and theatrical things here. Yeah. So on that. So you're a conductor, a musician, yourself, you play the piano. Sorry. Can you share with us starting off with sort of how you got into what you've done with your life over the last how many years? Many years? Well, I, you know, I started playing at a very young age, I was five when I started playing piano, and was involved in a variety of musical things. I played the trumpet, in a band assigned choirs. We went to the theater, or we went to concerts. So there was, even though my parents were not musical, we were exposed to a great deal of music and the arts. I went to a sort of an academic high school that had a terrific choir. And so I latched into that as well as a good band. And going through the thought of going to music to study to be a teacher, be a music teacher. I had the experience of so many great music teachers, both in elementary school music, elementary school and high school, that I thought it was a worthy thing to do. And so I went to a small little suburban liberal arts school in New York State, got a degree in music, education, but also did a lot of playing. I had also learning Oregon, as at a young age and played in churches, and realized that, you know, the teaching piece was really important to me, but the music piece was was equally important. And so I tried to pursue both I got out of undergraduate school, took a few years off, and then decided I was going to get my Master's in piano performance at the Manhattan School of Music in New York City. And so at that point, I was kind of on the track that I wanted to be a full time performer. But there was a part of me that just couldn't accept, sitting in a practice room says for six to seven hours by yourself, I love a making music with other people, especially singers. But I also really love the classroom as well. And so I finished my masters and rather than hit the road and play, I got a teaching job and tried to maintain both professions. Good. So for many, many, many, many years, it was tough to do. You know, one of the things I think that I loved about teaching was that it really grounds zoo, you know, Monday morning comes in, the students come into your room, they don't care what performance you had on the weekend, or how great you were, they could care less. I enjoyed that the fact that I could go out and you know, and freelance and do what I thought were wonderful things but in the morning, I had to, I had to prove it to my students. They didn't want to hear about my exploits. Yeah. And so you know, maintaining a practice schedule while your your full time teaching, then apparent, you know, is is challenging. But, you know, I tried to do the best I could with it. And I have no complaints about the choices I make. I made your my life. I retired from the teaching bit I taught at a number of public secondary schools. The last one, a very, very good one in New York Scarsdale High School. And I also taught for 15 years as a was the choral director at a small liberal arts music school also in the New York metropolitan area. Because choral and vocal was also very, very big. And I love working with words. I love working with singers. And I retired and I ended up freelancing before this pandemic hit. And then what changes again? Oh, yeah, we could have a whole nother conversation about life. I've had enough I was really interested to speak to you because when I saw that you conducted not just orchestras, but also vocal groups and inquires, I spent probably 20 years of my life, singing in vocal groups and choirs, and I just absolutely loved, loved it so much. I learned so much from it. And I thought, I haven't spoken to another conductor. I don't think ever, I mean, the conductor that conducted me for all that time. And I just thought it'd be really nice. As part of this podcast to indulge myself a little bit. Game. I can do it, Carla. Yeah, so yeah, I spent years singing like that time, like Kirby Shaw was really big on these sorts of arrangements and was just a great time we saying we're all female. So we're SSA or SSI. And I was I'm an alto or second outro. And I used to just add, and I just love that feeling of blending and changing your tone to suit people around you and listening at the same time as singing. It just taught me so much about working with other people and a no compromise. You know, it's not all about me, I'm not a soloist, here, it's, we're all working together. The choral thing is just, it's an amazing bit of humanity. And I, for one, when you mentioned, you know, SSA or s a women's groups, I one of my favorite activities was to conduct women's groups. Yes, I almost felt like they invited me into their little thing. But the bonding that goes in a women's group and a sound as you say that you know, how you you really have to change a little bit of your, of your your thought process. But when it happens, the energy in a women's group is unlike any performing group I that I know of. And I, I love that I'm probably missed that the most about not conducting is conducting women's groups. But yeah, what you say is, so it's so true about choral groups. And I think when a conductor is savvy enough to to know that it's not really just about the music, but it's also about the people, because the force of the group shouldn't necessarily come from the podium, it should come from within. And if you can create that sort of atmosphere where they were the singers feeling engaged, and part of this, that they're not just being lectured. It's a it's just an amazing feeling. I missed that I miss choral groups. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, the buzz that you get, like, we were, like, I'm in my 40s. Now. So I started singing in that group when I was probably 14. And we always used to look around at each other. And just, we were just these individual kids and teenagers. And as we grew up, we kept saying, how do we sound so good? Because we'd look at each other and think, Well, we're not like that good. You know what I mean, as individuals, but then when we'd sing together, it would just be this amazing sound. And we just think, I don't know, it, just it the collective, you know, we'd just have this amazing energy and, and it was it was like you say, like a sort of a, it was a humbling experience, I think to realize that there was things you could achieve that were greater than yourself and greater than your own ego, I suppose. Yeah, it was just when I look back on it. Now, I don't think I realized at the time, how fortunate I was to have that experience and for such a long time with the same roughly the same group of people. Yeah, it was fun. The bond, that amount of bonding that happens in those groups, it's just amazing. It's like, you know, it doesn't happen in an all males group. And it doesn't, it certainly doesn't happen in a mixed group. There is some bonding and a mixed group, but it just for some reason, women are much more able and capable of loosening some of the garbage that's around all of us. And I you know, I knew I could never I could never get really that close to it because of who I am. But it just was awesome to be around and the way they treated each other though. They backed each other, you know, and and it reflects in the sound. That's why this the sum of its parts is more important than the individual. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the perfect description, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, he's just us, he said that it just reminded me of this moment, when we were recording, we recorded a couple of albums. Back in the 90s, this is going back. And we had to travel to Adelaide to record it, because our little town doesn't have any sort of capacity for recording how many people in one room at one time, and we were doing this particular song I can't make I think it was called Johnny has gone for a soldier, it's that was like, Oh, amazing, amazing song. And the soloist was having a bit of trouble, because she had to record it live while we're all recording. And so she was having a bit of trouble. I can't remember what parts or whatever. And our conductor took us aside and he said, we have to, we have to keep doing this. And I've done it a few times. But we have to keep doing it for Rene. And he basically gave us a choice. He said, we can go home now because it's the end of the day, and we come back and get it done the next day and stay an extra day. Well, we can stay here tonight, we can get it done. And we can you know, get Rene solo through and and we will get a we're gonna do it. We're gonna stay here now and get it done. And, you know, like that just support get behind each other. You know, it was just, and we wanted it to be good for her. We wanted her to have that experience as well and achieve what she wanted to, I suppose as the soloist because, you know, it's it's important when you get a solo to do it justice for yourself, you know how you want to present it. So I could totally relate to that. And that's interesting to hear that in your experience that it's not something that happens with with the men's group in the mix so. Hey, sorry, I've got a visit I forgot to say that. I'd say sorry. No, no, no, no, no, I, I had to. I had to in some of the some of the things they pulled me in concerts. Oh, yeah, my little one decided once she was going to mimic me conducting from the audience. I think she was better. That would have been lots of laughs people around, it would have enjoyed it. But did you? Did you start to realize at the time what was happening that she was doing that? Yeah, it was right behind me. You know, because we were both my wife was playing and I was conducting. Yeah, just school concert. So it wasn't, you know, it's not Carnegie Hall. But we had put them in a seat because we were sort of in the pit area. And we put them in seats right behind us. So that, you know, they wouldn't wander and they wouldn't, you know, be by themselves. And so, because we're both occupied, you know, here, I'm doing these grand gestures. And all of a sudden, I noticed that there's a mirror behind me doing. And the audience is laughing. Oh, that's so special. Isn't it? Like, Oh, I love that. That isn't? Well, I mean, you're, you know, the title. Or at least the you know, the title of the of your podcast is having to do dealing with family and being a musician. And that's a, that's a tough lift. You know, it is a tough lift. But when, when you have a moment like that, you know, then you realize that, you know, how special it is for also for the for the children, you know, my children's still sort of involved in music. So, yeah, it's sort of validating, I suppose, then you realize that they see what you're doing, like, there. And in a way, they're probably so proud of you. That's probably not the words a child would use. But, you know, to mimic you to copy what you're doing. You know, that's where they say flattery is the what's the word? Something's the biggest form of flattery. I can't actually, it's too late. You know what I mean? Like she or he, I'm sorry, what if, like, there was so. So wrapping what you were doing so? Yeah, I think that's a lovely story. I have two daughters. One is 34. And the other is third, the 231 311 lives in Northern New York State almost by the Canadian border, the city of Rochester. She, she's an opera director. And she does a freelancing and works as an adjunct in some schools. And the other is getting her master's in information in library sciences in New York. And she lives in Brooklyn. Yeah, right. Yeah, opera. That's that's a whole new world, isn't it? That's like, compared to the car. Well, like, it's different isn't? It? Isn't it isn't? You know, I, opera is a big piece of my, my background. And frankly, I got into opera as a young person and musical theater before I got into choral music. But, you know, I mean, some of the core, some of the opera choruses are amazing piece of choral work. And you're also dealing with languages, you know, you're dealing with subtexts. In some cases, you know, classic stories. I know, perhaps, maybe people think that opera is passe. I don't I mean, what's happening? I don't know what's happening there. But what's happening here is a massive revolution in librettos, and people writing operas, and not just regurgitating the same 25 year a year, but it's, I love it. You know, it's a combination really of great orchestral music, great choral music and great solo music, and theater. What more could you have? Yeah, that's it, it takes so many books, this doesn't, does and then this band is ballet. And some of them I actually had, the episode I released just this week was with a dancer from the Australian ballet. And I, I recorded with her for almost three hours, because I couldn't stop talking about the music. And thank goodness, she was kind enough to indulge me but I was just like, I don't know, that obviously, as a musician, I'm so enthralled by that part of of ballet. And I just find that just the whole world of ballet is a mystery. So it was lovely to be here to share a lot of these behind the scene things we all think it's a bit like that Black Swan movie, but she showed me that it's not all like that some parts of it. Those they had a hard they really have a hard because they have to make it early. Young. And, and I think the physical, there's a physical toll and music as well. But the physical toll on on dancers is really intense. So I think they haven't my Google, oh, the way she was describing what they do how like the days, they're doing there might be rehearsing one day and then performing that night, but they'll be doing perhaps they're not rehearsing the show they're doing that night anymore. They're learning the next one. And it's just like, not only would your brain be spinning, but your body is just under the pump, you know, sometimes six or seven days a week. And like when I was talking to us, I was trying not to be sound too daunted. But I was like, This sounds exhausting. Like how do you guys actually do it? Like, you know, and then to fit in having a family as well? Like, how how do you physically manage it all? It's just such a know, a really challenging world. Yeah. I think I think Broadway actors are similar in that, you know, I I know a few and I had a few former students and their lives aren't just it's not the rock star stuff that you think it is that we all think that media thinks it is? Yeah, no, they're working eight nights a week. They can't really take time off because you don't know if a show is going to close. They're worried about what the next show comes. There's the physicality of it they they actually have misuses and people backstage to deal with them when they were there elements. It doesn't exactly sound Like, you know, rock star movie star kind of thing we are, it's, it's such hard work and that and it makes you appreciate it, when you see it, you think of, if you can, if you have an appreciation of what they've been through, to be able to bring you what you're watching, just, you know, have such respect for these people and the work that they've done, and continue to do so. So you mentioned before that your wife is also a musician, what does what does she play? What'd she do? She, she was a pianist, also. And a choral director, she actually called her up to the schools. Most her age group was mostly here in the US grades six through eight. And sometimes a little younger. And so, you know, we, in one way, we had a one where you sort of had an advantage because we were both on a school schedule, which helps in bringing up children in another way. A disadvantage is that December, May in June, you know, like, some similarity was always out at night. And so, you know, trying to figure out who's picking the kids up who's getting dinner, who's that sort of thing, but she you know, I don't think she had I can say this, we, we've been married with a beetle before you for two years in May. But we shouldn't have that kind of burning passion to really want to play by herself. She was very comfortable and love the classroom and loved the whole element of the classroom. And she was coral. Like I said that and she was a really good teacher, she retired also, this is her first year of retirement. You know, she kind of bridged a little bit into that sort of that pandemic teaching and decided that this is not really what I signed up for Yeah, but so we did share a lot of music and a house I mean, there was always music in the house somebody was always playing and although we tried not to force our kids to be in music it you know just sort of happened sometimes you just can't help but if you if you're surrounded by it it's it just gets into you doesn't know you feel the need to go up and conduct is that that daughter that that imitated us that the daughter that is the opera director? No Actually no, no she she was the younger she's the younger daughter and she was very as a child growing up how can I say spicy monkey still is a little bit she played actually she played the viola through school and was quite good but again did not have that you know there's there's a certain there's a certain amount of mania and I might even say sickness that you need to have to, to kind of keep that thing going and neither girls although they love music, and they were quite good at it, they just didn't have that to go to go beyond that which is just fine. You know, it's not but no, she never. She played a few decent orchestras and you know, we used to play together sometimes I would accompany her if she asked me but no, never took up the baton except for that one time. Maybe she read the critics loved it. That story. That is a really good story. Hello so in that, but you've, your wife and yourself are sort of juggling the parenting role and trying to do your music was that I had an I had a weird it, was it ever sort of uh, was it? Was it hard to sort of juggle who was going to get to do certain things? Were there ever sort of clashes where it was like, we don't both try to do the same thing like that, that that experience where you had to take the girls with it? Was there a lot of that sort of stuff where you're both having to be out and bringing the children with you? I would say there was a little angst on on who's you know? And if, but I, I could, we were very good to each other and that we communicated, you know, and we knew what what needed to be done. So like, if I was doing a show, that pretty much meant, like for the last 10 days I was done. And if she was doing a show was the same thing? No, like there's any, you know, he might say chase you. But with the with the onset of digital calendars. makes things a lot easier, because now all of a sudden, everything is like in front of you. And everything has is in front of me and vice versa. Well, we didn't have that when, when our daughters were growing up, but it helped being in a school schedule, for sure. You know, they were it would sometimes be is if I had extra stuff if I was doing extra freelance things on the weekends or sometimes. You know, I did a few festivals over this festival over the summer, which took me away for a bunch of time. There were maybe there was a little friction there. But I don't you know, I think with some of that. And I know what you're driving at with the question, I think is that, you know, like sometimes well, it is, you know, somebody, somebody gives up a portion of their thing for the house, household, and the other person does it. And in a sense, I kind of did that. But not really because I still was teaching my main focus was teaching and playing in church. And my wife's focus was teaching, completely teaching. So it's not like anybody. Anybody asked somebody else to do something extraordinary. So that you could make it big at the Metropolitan Opera. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know, people were who have have had to do that. And you know, that causes great tension, and sometimes they can split up for that. But we did not have to deal with that. And I think that's part of, again, going back to our original set, the grounding that teaching gives you really negates some of that. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for indulging that question that sort of, you know, I'm appreciative of your giving me your time as, as the man in the relationship to how you deal with that, and how that makes you feel, you know, what I mean? It's like, I think on my show, we do talk a lot about how women try to cope, you know, sometimes in a man's world and depending on what sort of art circle they might be in. So I find it I just, you know, in a kind and respectful way to hear what the other side has to say, You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I, you know, and I think, I think one of the problems is that there isn't enough dialogue about that. It's something that really people don't think about when when they do get married or when they have children. Is that okay? And perhaps, perhaps, it certainly is better than what it was when I was growing up where, you know, there were, there were definitely roles carved out. You know, my father went out to work, my mother stayed home, she didn't go out to work sometimes. But the one thing I did learn from my father, because he worked in a restaurant business he cooked. And so to me, that was never something that was, well, you know, I don't want to I don't want to do that. As matter of fact that that in some ways for me, if I'm going to the market and buying stuff, and cooking it, that's a real release valve. I mean, I actually really enjoy doing that. Yeah. And so I think that the problems occur when you don't communicate and I think there are certain things that I know my wife does that other people might think are so called manly things to do. Because I don't like doing them, and I'm not very good at them. The things that I do that might some people might say, are not manly kinds of things. And I don't care. I also think that a lot of those those, those, those boundaries are changing, they certainly change, you know? And who know who would not want to be involved with rearing your children being around your children? I mean, I can't imagine why you'd want to, why would you have them anyway. So that's somebody that you used to look forward to when, when, when they were young, I do this once by accident. And I would take a day off from school in December after my concerts were done. I pull them out of school. And I take him to Manhattan. And the first my wife was out doing a concert and I was home with the girls got Chinese takeout or prices to carry out and decided to rent the film Breakfast at Tiffany's, which they've never seen before. And so they allow, I was glad that they fell in love with I hadn't seen it since I was a kid. So they wanted to go have Breakfast at Tiffany's. I took the day off, we went into Manhattan. We sent the student for a Tiffany's with a bagel or whatever it was, and then went to the tree. And it just it was such an amazing day that I ended up doing that for maybe four or five years after that, not necessarily going to Tiffany's but other parts of Manhattan at the time with the two of them. And I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet they remember those, like really special memories, too. It's part of their childhood. Yeah, they do, actually. Yeah, that's lovely. But I think you're right, though. It's like the gender stereotypes, the gender roles are being challenged, which is awesome. I don't think I could have had this conversation. You know, in my dad zero, that would have just been What are you talking about? Like, why is why is this even a question? This is, this is not what happens. You know what I mean? It's just things are changing in that that's awesome for everybody. Because that's the thing, like, just because, like I spoke to a dad for this podcast last year for the Father's Day episode, and he said this, because I'm the dad, why was it assumed that I'm the one that has to leave the house and go to work? Why can't I be the one that stays with my children? Because I love my children? Why would I want to stay with my children? So you know, everyone's the mind shift. The mindset is shifting with every generation and which is awesome. Like, it's really good. Yeah, I almost wish it was shipped a little faster here in the United States. Yeah, yes, things not shipped so fast. As I'm sure you can see. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So you talk about communication being really important. Did you at that time, when you were thinking about starting your family? Was that a discussion that your wife and yourself had? How's this going to work with our careers? And what we want to keep trying to do musically? Was that? Was that something that happened then? No. We, we were married for seven years before we had our first born and how grant time flitting around going into the city going to Europe. I I loved our lifestyle. I really didn't want it to change. And but I knew having a child was was really important in my life. And I'm not sure if it was that important to me. And I kept I wouldn't say resist, but you know, you know, the usual and we don't have my mind. We don't house you know, that sort of thing. And then finally, I would that's part that's part I assume has to be part of the package. So I didn't want to go back on my word. I was frightened. Frankly, to be really honest. I thought that my entire life would change completely. Um, and I remember, you know, both girls were C sections and my wife was in a hospital, the first one. I remember, she was in hospital and I came home from visiting. And I was by myself and I remember sitting with a very large glass of wine. Watching. It was a European cable channel that used to we used to be able to get that doesn't exist, I don't think it exists. And we're watching the Mozart Piano Concerto in D minor. And thinking, you know, I'll never play that. You know, I'm sure most of it was just the exhaustion. shock of it. But, you know, I woke up the next day, went back to the hospital, you know, and I was the first one to actually hold her, you know, she was a little thing, you know, and and that whole thought process at that point, it didn't matter anymore. You know, I, but I also to remember playing a recital, like the week after, or like 10 days after being absolutely exhausted. And that's basically that what I realized that my life was going to be as it was just going to, it wasn't going to be that sort of picture. Perfect. I can go and do a gig someplace, and I'm prepared and I'm rested. I'm fired up. It says, basically, let me stay awake long enough to finish it and then go home and crash. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I realized that my life would not change much. I mean, it does change, of course, you know, it has to change. But when it would not change, or at least what I felt was important I like she was she was an infant. And I remember watching a broadcast of a live broadcast from, I guess, the Metropolitan Opera of Mozart's Magic Flute. And Emily was on the floor with me just before bed, and it got to the point where the Queen of the Night sings this array up, up, up, up, up, up, up up a Berber put her bed, I finished watching the thing, the next morning, the next day after school, I come home and she's kind of like trying to sing it. So I went out and got a boombox. I bought the highlights CD of The Magic Flute. And now I realize she has she has the disease. Oh, one. Yeah, and they've always been, you know, we've schlepped them to so many different not only school performances, but also stuff that we aren't being close to Manhattan to New York. They've seen a lot of stuff so but you know, I think at that point, I realized that you know, this these two things can commingle? I was going to ask you, as you were talking about that was you realize that you didn't have to give up one thing to have the other it's that your music and your child, your children could actually, like you said coexist, that would have been a really relieving moment, I would have thought that you sort of would have thought I'm not going to lose it or I'm not going to have to, you know, give up something. No, no, yeah, it was, you know, the, the what it did impress upon me is that I was going to have to work harder to maintain it. Yeah. And sometimes I couldn't maintain it the way I would want to, you know, like I couldn't get to a piano to practice or I couldn't I had to turn down something. But I would have to be it would be more on my shoulders to try to balance those two things like not practicing when they're asleep and those kinds of things. I can see how it would have been a very difficult set have choices for somebody else to make. But once I saw them, as you know, once I saw them, that was not a difficult choice anymore, you know, as much as I love music they don't take that doesn't take the place of my children, you know? Yeah, and I think that's something that everyone's afraid of when, when you, you, you sort of presented with this prospect of having a child and your life completely changing, you have this fear of, what's my life gonna look like? Off you go? Go on, go see that place. You'll be asleep when I come out. That just proves it doesn't it? Just proves it. It's just an you know, sort of, I just have to go go with the flow of it all. Because in the end, to me, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he's what matters. Yeah. You know, whether I have to wait 10 minutes or not, that doesn't matter, you know, and if it doesn't, and if it did matter, then then I'm an idiot, you know, because that was more important at that, at that point, and balancing all of that, bravo, you know, that's gonna be hard for what you're doing. Because you're in your house. It's not like you can go someplace else. It is, it is challenging. But the thing that I like to remind myself is that he does have to be parents, and there's a time and place for each parent to have what they need. Because I think it's really important for you to be filled up yourself, have your cup filled up, especially if you, you know, if I think you have to be nurtured yourself before you can nurture someone else, I think it's really important to do that, and that's why I've never stopped singing never stopped creating, through having both kids through both pregnancies. It's like, I think it's just a part of who you are. And that identity doesn't change just because you become a parent, is that part of your life's not going to just, you know, go up in smoke, you're all of a sudden not going to be a creative person, just because you're a parent, you know? Yeah. And that certainly is not, you know, your parents or my parents reality, they had to give up things that they may have wanted to do. I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also what makes creative people also want to do stuff because they, it's almost I don't want to say they want to prove a point that it can be done. But it's like, you've seen how, perhaps your parent your parents gave up stuff that they wanted to do. And maybe that doesn't feel right for you, you don't. And because society's changed, you have those opportunities, so you're going to take them I suppose that's I guess that's a way of trying to describe it. Again, not to delve into the into politics, but I think one of the things that's, that's difficult here in United States is that we don't have daycare. Daycare is all private. And so, you know, there is no infrastructure for we were fortunate that we we made enough money for both of us to go out working and somebody who's watching the children, and then when they went to school, somebody wouldn't, you know, but I remember moving into this house now, where we were, the biggest issue wasn't whether we can afford this was whether we're going to be able to find daycare that was appropriate for both girls. And that that piece I think, helps to be able to share the responsibility and for people to be able to say, okay, I can keep a piece of myself and still be a parent and etc. But I feel so awful, you know, even it was highlighted here, certainly during the pandemic when daycare centers were shut down, and people who really need that, you know, the working class or the poor, have to sacrifice going to work with having their kids at home. And again, I don't want to know, I actually I don't mind delving in politics because I'm old enough to have seen the world spin a few times. And my only hope for this country, you know, we label everything is to make it easier for people to have families and to go to work and to have their dreams, then we can we could have that all. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like a lot of it comes down to circumstance, like you can have all the dreams in the world. But if you physically cannot do it, for whatever constraint that said, it has to has to stop, doesn't it? Yeah, I actually, I spent nine years working in childcare here in Australia. And I'd recently just resigned from that job a couple of weeks ago. And they desperately we need an overhaul here desperately. The same thing during COVID, we didn't get shut down. But the the limitations put on access to childcare were greatly changed. So if only if you were an essential worker, you were allowed to use childcare. So basically deciding whose job was important enough to be able to have childcare, which I thought was pretty ordinary, and a lot of parents obviously, were not happy with that they would ring us and say, Well, why isn't my job important enough? Who decides? You know, the government's decided, but obviously, the sentence the person who answers the phone is the one who's copying that question. And that's not a question they can answer. But that's how people feel. And I can understand that I don't think it's it's not a fair thing to put on people to decide. You're whether you're important enough in in this community in our country, or not, it was just a bit of a mess, to be honest, but Well, yeah, you know, there's an issue here too, about how birth rates are going down. Well, if people are worried about having children, because they can't work. Of course, birth rates are gonna go down. Well, you know, I but yeah, there's a whole thing that just reminded me I listen to a lot of BBC Radio. And they were having a big thing on there the other month about China, how they're now wanting people to have three children. And they were saying, well, there's no infrastructure set up for mums to return to work, there's no childcare, there's, you know, they don't have like nannies system, like it's not a thing over there. So how can you expect people to return to work if you don't give them the, the tools to be able to do it? It's all well and good saying have three kids, it's like, well, hang on a sec, I actually still want to work or need to work. Yeah, it's the also piggyback on your, you know, the point of our conversation, is that that's, that's a huge, a huge, huge issue for people who are in the arts, about having family, you know, and also, you know, if somebody's a freelancer, or, you know, let's say they're fortunate enough to have one of the big jobs, you know, orchestra, full time orchestra or health benefits, the whole thing. Those things happen, like you're a ballet dancer, they rehearse during the afternoon in the morning, and they play at night. And usually they stay in the same hall all day long. So somebody's got to be home. Or there has to be some some accommodation for Where do the kids go? Yeah. That's only if you're you're fortunate to be married to somebody who has that kind of a position. But most of the musicians I know, they're all you know, they're either office temping someplace, and they're they're running out to do gigs at night and taking whatever comes along. And it is certainly a lot harder for them than it ever was for us to to try to bring a family. There's this whole the gig economy, we call over here, people who are freelancers and, and that kind of stuff that they they suffered hugely through the pandemic, because they didn't get the support from the government that other people did, too. So that was a whole nother sort of cultural division of why why is some people worthy of receiving money from the government and some people aren't and the arts just suffered so much. And that's something that I think half the reason why, hopefully, we'll have a change of government because people have realized that the sports kept going and the sports were supported, and that there was all sorts of allowances made for them to travel through interstate to keep playing their football and whatever else they were playing, but the arts just stopped. And even at a local level, there was no support, so I don't I don't that frustrates me. But anyway, we've got an election coming so we can do something about you. Know, I think it's endemic in Australian culture that that of Sport comes first sport. So the bail and endo and the arts are the poor cousin. Unfortunately. But anyway, here too. Yeah. Well, we are here just even on the school's bounce, we're screaming about how their kids games were canceled and you know, the colleges wouldn't come and see them kids play and they wouldn't get into college and scholarships and and so they ended up allowing indoor games like basketball when you couldn't sing in a in a you know, you couldn't have a choir. Yeah. What's the difference? Yeah, that singing that singing thing really got us over here as well. That was just really? Yeah, it's hard. You'd have 40,000 people sitting in a stadium watching a football match, but you couldn't gather together in a room and sing together? Come on just the Yeah. Very frustrating. But anyway, hopefully that all that stuff's behind us now and when to get something else. The next variant? Yeah, oh good. Coming back to you as a conductor, I wanted to ask and I haven't I haven't asked you this previously. So I'm going to put you completely on the spot. So if you like to move on to something else and come back to this in a minute, that's fine. I wanted to ask you, what's your favorite piece to conduct? And why? Is it two out of a question? Well, it here here's my usual stock answer when people say to me, what's your favorite composer? Or what's your favorite piece of music? It's like saying, What's your favorite food? There's sometimes I like a plate of pasta. Or sometimes I like a beautiful piece of grilled fish. And there are some times that I might even like pizza. I don't really have it's like, there's a line from this show Oklahoma. When Wilbur Parker asks Adel, Annie, well, which guy do you like better? And she says, whichever one I'm with, I try in conducting and playing. To find even if it's something that I don't may not connect with initially. I tried to find something in it, that I can get my hook into it, and then expand out example, I resisted working learning conducting Carmina Burana for years and years years. I just felt like it just you know, it just seemed like some raucous pieces, you know. And then, this was my college position. They, they hired a new president, who was of German descent. And he decided he wanted the choir to sing a few movements of Carmina Burana at his installation. Interesting choice, I would think, especially with some of that text. So I felt like I really couldn't say no. Even though I didn't have the kind of forces to put that together. So I sat and I studied it. I chose some movements. I managed to get money out of them to put it together. And I did it. And frankly, I enjoy the rehearsal, and I enjoyed the performance in it. So that's an example of something that I had absolutely no, and I knew I had, I should I should do it because everybody does it. I'm more of a lyricist. I mean, I love I love. I love great text. I love melody but I also love complexity. I would say Probably my favorite thing to conduct his BA. Because I love puzzles. Yeah, those kinds of musical puzzles. But there's something there's something tremendous about conducting Verity. There's something tremendous the one guy that that scares me. Let me be honest, but it's probably not gonna be broadcast United States a little matter. Beethoven, I know, people would say, Are you crazy? That's like the pinnacle. Beethoven, to me is so dense, and is one of those composers that I have to work really hard to get at the kernel of it. It just, it's not easy for me. It's not easy for me to play. It doesn't fit my hand well. And it just I look at the score and it's almost like I look in a language that I don't understand. I like to say I probably have enjoyed it. But it's not my desert island kind of fit. I mean, I love listening to it. And obviously his place in music is amazing. To me, Mozart, Mozart operas. Mozart symphonies. CalWORKs Wow. Poulenc Gloria is one of my favorite pieces. The Dorothy Requiem is another one of my favorite pieces. I've done the for a requiem a number of times also one of my my favorites. I've tried to get my try to get my wife to sign a piece of papers to tell me that you know that it should be sung at my funeral. Very carefully choose the soloist. Pas who is just a challenge, you know, first of all first soprano that's a hard question but I don't know if I answered it fully. I also love those you know those small tacos, you know, those Renaissance music. choral music to me is just it's a ethereal I love the big British stuff, the whole host of Vaughan Williams. And again, it's it's it's sort of what what I mean at the moment. Oddly, Mozart, the Mozart Requiem is not one of my faves because it's not really Meltzer except for bits of it. I've done it I've enjoyed doing it. But it's not something that I would really doesn't have the same spot in my in my being as some of the French correlate works. symphonic li DeVore Jack but I also like to conduct contemporary music too. And I find that to be interesting. I love playing contemporary music and for that very reason is that at least the way I work is I look big first and then realize oh my god, how am I gonna redo this and then I go back and just sort of take things in small chunks. And with contemporary music there's there's no preconceived motion to fall on. You know, you can't go to a recording you can't go to you can't read about it. Especially if it's brand new. I played there's a in Hartford Connecticut there was there's a festival every November this first time I did it. It's called New New in November and they basically put on one act operas, chamber operas written for piano five or six of them in a setting and so I played one of them and it was fast it was it was based on the American young American composer from Austin, Texas, based on the Pulse nightclub shooting in Florida. Very powerful and just so much fun at practice and dig into it, you know, this is trying to get and then once you finally get together with the other artists, it just it just it's like magic and so I really that I really enjoy something that has not been done before that I have to trust my own guile and research Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you actually, because I know as, you know, doing choral music, it's sort of up to the conductor to interpret it and to present it in the way that they see fit the way that they you know, the tempo, like there's always the guide to what to do. But someone might put a pause somewhere else for dramatic effect, or, you know, there's, there's room for your own added nuances, I guess. Is that something that you find exciting or daunting, then if you know, someone else has done it? Is it hard to put out of your mind? They didn't like that. But I wanted to do it like this? Or did? Does that make sense? No, it makes great, it's a great question. For one, I'm a bit I'm a bit of a traditionalist, if it's not in the score, I am not going to muck around with the score much unless the big unless is, what can the group in front of me do? I am not a big believer on having this massive conceived idea of a work that they can't accomplish. So if it's a professional group, that's one thing, but if it's an amateur group, or it's a school group, or it's a church group, then what I do, I try to look at what the score demands in terms of sound. And if they can't do it with perhaps the way that somebody else might do it, like speed, I'll do it with articulation to create that same effect. But to me, it makes no sense to try to, to push a group to do something that you have, you know, basically an academic scholastic idea of what it should sound like, and they can't do it. Yeah, what's the sense? So, in terms of freely interpreting, I like to feel like I have some say on that. But mostly, my say on that, especially if it's a choral work has to do with punctuation, breathing, text issues, there's some composers who are very demanding in what they write, and there's others that have their own, like Vaughn Williams, or one I mean, he's, his, his writing has to sort of be interpreted because it's not, it doesn't really make any sense if you do exactly what he says. And I suspect it's because of the acoustic that he was writing for. That it was in a church and a very live acoustic. So sometimes things like the final ends of notes or phrases are kind of, you know, he puts a a quarter note with an eighth note that's tied to it, and a dot underneath that, which to me says, Get rid of the time, especially if you're in a dry acoustic. Yeah, yeah. So but I have a, I have a story that I I did the, the Verdi Requiem in Romania, about four years ago, four years ago. And quiet was quite good. soloists, we're all we're all professional, but you know, like most of these kinds of places, they're all sort of stuck, because you're not there for a long period of time. You basically float into the city, have a couple of piano rehearsals, a dress, you know, you meet the orchestra and then bang, off you go. So there's no time for me to pontificate I want I want there's a spot at the end of the very Requiem, where it is this huge crescendo and then it comes to subido piano. basically impossible to do with the way he wrote it. And it's in the middle of a word. So I scoured various recordings. And one of the recordings I got, which was a composer I conducted that was very influential in my, in my view of conducting was Robert Shaw. And I'm doing amazing pretty regularly. He actually took a little bit of a loose breath before that piano, the whole thing. And then the subido piano, perfect. So I thought it was good for Robert Shaw, if you could for me, right. Nan Romania gave me an issue with it. She said. And I said, Well, you can you make this with the piano without and it turned into this fight. So in the end, okay, it wasn't a subido piano wasn't a piano. But it wasn't worth fighting, because it just wasn't, you know. And so sometimes, you know, I think I probably if I had more time, I probably would have insisted, but my Romanian is not very good. English and I don't think she spoke English very well anyway. But that's the thing like you, you, you're challenging cultural norms that, and it's hard to break down those barriers or even question those barriers, certainly with a limited timeframe. But even at all, I guess, you know, there's 1000s of years of history, and that's what they do. And also, it's also what the what the norm is, in that particular region. Yeah. Right. So, to go back to the very Requiem, I did have an extensive choral rehearsal. To few be subject to a few areas in a very right way. And, you know, being sort of a pianist, and organist, a Bach lover, I mean, I have a certain set way about views. And they sang both views. Like, that was almost anathema to me, you know, you couldn't hear subjects, it just was like this big mush and wash of sound. And my first thought was, okay, so how far I'm gonna go with this? I tried. They were terrific. They were so receptive. Actually, those two choruses were the best things in the entire performance. Because I, they allowed me to break the paradigm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when they actually did it, it was just awesome. You know, so clean it was you could hear every entrance and everything was shaded, and, and they were a good choir to begin with. But that's the difference. And then they were the soprano was not used to that she was used to getting whatever she wanted. And so when she got it what you want, and so I think that the score, it's not a museum piece, you know, it's a guide. And if you have enough, I don't think you should sway far so far from the score that it deviates from what the composer intended. Because that I don't think is right. Yeah. So no, but to use the score, and then also to use your understanding and knowledge of what the pair the practice of the time was, what the idiosyncrasies of that particular composer was, if you know them, if it's a brand new thing, then you know, then you're going on, you're going on guesswork, sometimes you're lucky enough to have a composer there. And that's, that's a long winded way of answering your question about, you know, how do you how do you sort of attack a score like that, but I find it really daunting, but yet fascinating to get like a clean score and thinking, okay. Where are we going from here? Yeah, no, thanks. I appreciate that. But I'm throwing some questions that you that you haven't had any morning over. So I appreciate that. I'm a former teacher, I can dish it. Be surprising some of the questions would. No, I love that. Yeah, actually talking about contemporary composers. I had a guest on my show a few weeks ago, Dr. Erica ball, I'm not sure if you've come across her work. She's based in the United States. And she is on this mission, I guess to because she teaches piano and violin as well, to teach her students that they can play music by people that are alive still. That's her thing that it's like women and people that are still alive. And then like, some of his students don't even realize that people are still writing classical music. They think it's all stuff by, you know, people who died hundreds of years ago. So that was a really fun conversation. That's changing here. Mentally, yeah. And I think it's because composers are promoting their music better. I think festivals are promoting the music. And one of the one of the exciting things that I thought that happened during the pandemic here was, you know, because we were all, you know, sitting in front of our screens at home, it allowed us to sort of take some steps back and do a little research. And I was involved with a mezzo soprano friend of mine who wanted to put out a weekly A video of songs written by women composers who were not necessarily household names. And it was fast because we both researched this together. We rehearsed it using, you know, this thing here, which had its had its moments. But the fact that we, you know, we we did that I was, although I knew some names I some of the music is just a why is this buried? Why is nobody playing this? Yeah, yeah. And it's happening here. There's, there's concerts now. A great deal of concerts by African American female composer Florence Price, who wrote a tremendous that was an amazing pianist. Were big groups, symphonic groups. choral groups are starting to really dig in and not look at the same stuff that we've been playing for 300 year. That although some people do advocate that, I think that bringing this no music by living composers into the canon of what we do, is going to sustain classical music and not make it look like just some relic museum piece. Yeah, that is so true. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, because it's like, it will just stay as something that doesn't evolve, it doesn't change, it isn't challenged. And eventually, it'll just, I don't know, might even get lost somewhere because it hasn't evolved. And I don't I, I think it's awesome. It's really, really good to keep it relevant as well for new audiences. And because I think this conversation I had with with Erica was that there is a portion of the audience that desperately wants to hear a song that they know, and they recognize that there's also the people that want to challenge that. So it's also that that generational shift, you know, that that will challenge your whole Hispanic that's been going on for a long time. You know, and you mostly see it in, in orchestras, where they know that their donors, their big donors want to hear Mahler and Beethoven, Brahms, and will not will not stomach in certain places, certain cities are different, but it will not stomach an entire evening of something that they don't recognize or can't understand. Yep. So in the past, orchestras have sort of mixed the program a little bit, you know, they give the castor oil on the sugar. But that's also changing, you know, where, and they've been very smart about it, and using sometimes contemporary living composers who actually show up to these concerts, give a lecture on it. Explain it, because I think some some of that is education. Yeah. But I, it's starting to starting to veer off into the choral world and starting to veer off into the opera world. And I just in some ways, I had a conversation with a friend, we were talking about the pandemic, because let's face it, we all talked about pandemic, how they will would have been no Renaissance, if it wasn't for the Black Death. You know, I mean, the Black Death, the Renaissance was, was a direct cause of coming out of the Black Death as the, the, the pandemic of 1918, the roaring 20s was a direct cause of coming out of that in the First World War. And I maybe I'm an optimist. I am, too. But I think there's going to be a second renaissance in the arts for sure. Because, like you say, they've taken such a hit, and so they can't go back to the same way things were done before. Yeah, I would agree with that. I hope and I hope that that it challenges the norms. of all cultures, but my own I really hope because the thing that frustrates me is that creators and artists make everything that you consume, you know, you wouldn't be able to sit at home and watching Netflix during the pandemic, if somebody hadn't come up with the story and the actors, you know, everybody that goes into making that stuff and everything you touch and like everything has been created by someone and made by someone who designed by someone, but we just seem to take it for granted. I suppose. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. Then I Yeah, yeah. Until it was denied. And yes, yeah, we could argue for granted until they shut theaters down until they shut everything else down. And you had you had a search for it someplace else. And some of the arts organizations were smart enough. My follow up and for one is that then they started releasing all of their HD videos for free. Yeah, right, every week, you know. And, again, thinking of the longer the longer game, and a longer game is to, is to keep this thing going. Yeah, and perhaps not being precious about, you know, like that, that maybe giving up some income, maybe things used to have to be paid for in that way. But just because we've always done things a certain way, that doesn't mean we have to keep doing them a certain way, if we want to evolve and remain relevant and, you know, reach these audiences that are basically a candid audience. They're not doing anything else. So we pump them full of this stuff. And then they love it. And then they when they come out, they want to consume it even more. I, I, we went to the opera. In September, the Mecca opened back, you know, opened back up again. And this, they decided to open their season with a new opera. And it was written by the book was written by a columnist for the New York Times, fire shut up in my bones. If you ever have an opportunity to see the HD video, that is amazing. But the thing that was really amazing is that when this show opened, and as I said, it opened the season, which is unheard of. It was packed. And the audience was unlike any audience I've ever seen at any classical concert, anywhere. In the world, it was just like, first of all, it was an it was an event. And the age differential was huge. The the social makeup was huge. And I've seen, I saw people that I've never thought I would see at the Metropolitan Opera and a place went and it was, besides the fact that it was an amazing performance. But I thought they were going to rip down the house at the end. It was just was incredible. And that shook me. It's because when a staid institution, like the Metropolitan Opera can have the guts to say things are different. We're going to change a little bit of a the conversation here, I think there's no reason why not everyone else can also do. Yeah, that's incredible. Isn't it? Like the risk that they would take doing that, but the payoff has so many sort of flow on effects, not just for them, but for the how the culture of opera is now. You know, changing? Yeah. Incredible. The entire company, the entire production team, what's African America? Yeah. Yeah. And the dancing on stage was something that was unlike anything you would have ever seen on the Met stage. And it was just amazing. The band, the orchestra was actually a full symphony orchestra with a band in the middle of it. Playing and the music also had jazz elements, you know, symphonic elements, all sorts of just a hodgepodge of great, great stuff. I just hope they do more. Never was more of a Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I sort of feel like ballet is really good at pushing the boundaries. I know the the Australian ballet here. You know, they've they've got to get the they get the balance right from the the shows that people want to say the sleeping beauties in the swan lakes and the nutcrackers. But then they get and they've been doing this for many years, getting the people we're gonna get people from Europe over to showcase to contemporary works and to push the boundaries of what people think ballet is. And I think I feel like ballet is really good at doing that. And yeah, the I think dancers always been really good at that. Because the music is except for those those chestnuts. The music can be anything you want it to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the style could be anything you really you really want it to be there's you're not really. I mean, the people have tried to pry loose a little bit of, you know, our conceived notions of what Nutcracker and Swan Lake should look like. But for the most part, if you do a contemporary thing, you're not under any constraints to do anything except what that work demands. Yes, they I think they've been good with that. And I think belly audiences are much more receptive To that, even though, you know, I frankly used to hate going to the ballet we call them the white glove crowd here. And so you'd sit in the audience and all of a sudden they take out these little bond bonds with the rappers it's like the most sublime piece of music and the oh here. And it would take forever for that thing to get in that woman's mouth. And it was just like, irregardless of what was going on. Yeah, just so I was never a great fan of the audiences of our ballets but for sure. We have this concept of mum guilt that I talked to my guests about and I love I love to eat sounds bad rice, I love talking to people about their guilt. But I find it really fascinating because everybody has different experiences, everyone might deal with it differently. Some people don't feel it, some people feel it a lot. And I like to when I get the chance to talk about how men feel about that. Because your say your a man's role generally is perceived as different to the woman. So it is expected that you might you know, you leave the home and do what you got to do and that sort of thing. Do you? What's your take on? I guess? I don't want to call it dad guilt because I don't. I don't even like calling it mum guilt. But I call it that just for the hashtag mum guilt, you know? What's your thoughts about all that sort of stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean by it. Okay. So the way that we talk about mum guilt is that when your mom, you're supposed to do stuff for the children. And then if you do something for yourself, you should feel guilty about that. Or if you don't meet the norms of what society deems as being an I'll put in air quotes, again, a good mother, you should feel guilty for that. An example that I can give you is a guest I had on the show, went out one night to watch a classical music performance. And she was there with their friends. And one of the people she met said, Oh, it's such a shame you're missing bedtime. You know, it's good that you could come tonight, but you're missing putting the kids to bed and she's like, why is that a question? Why are you asking me about bedtime? I shouldn't say this to the person. But you know, my child has two parents that my husband is quite capable of putting the children to bed. And I'm quite capable of leaving the house and doing certainly for myself. It does. I guess I can and I probably shouldn't answer for my wife. But I but you know, certainly when we've been out and I have to admit that we did not go out much without them. Okay, that was our choice. We took them to everything, including restaurants. And some of it was because we just liked being around them. And I don't think it was guilt. I just think you know, I could probably count on one hand. Firstly, babysitters rarely had a babysitter. Now, when one of us had to do something or went out? I would say that maybe Celia would feel a little, you know, like a little bit. I shouldn't be home. But I'm sure it passed fast. Especially knowing that I was there. Yeah. If I wasn't there, then I would have been a different story. If it we were both out someplace for sure. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Guilt is a strong word. You know, I might think about you know, where I what I was doing. And I have to say I'm not I wasn't the kind of guy when the girls were young that Did you know like went out with the boys and that kind of stuff. I didn't do that at all. I had no intention to do that. I'm perfectly fine staying home with the girls. But you know, I might think oh, okay, we'd be having dinner right now or the, you know, shower time in the bath time. Yeah. But I wouldn't call it good. Yeah, you know, might as you said, you know, like our, the generation of our parents, they had to give up stuff. And I'm sure that, you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father who was in a restaurant business without every night working, and come home till two, three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them, you know? But, you know, I almost I must wonder about that. And it just, it's sort of a foreign thing. I understand why people might think that it I, it's hard for me to kind of think, put myself in there. Because, for one, we took them everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, we, the first time they went to Europe, to see my family, and she's been other places. One of them was five years old, four years old. You know, like, I mean, those kids went when traveling more than most. We went to restaurants. And so they were very, very early age. And we just, we wanted, we love being around each other. And it wasn't like to be with her mom or sisters. I'm sure maybe she felt a little, but I'm sure it passed quickly when she was with her sisters or whoever. And I never felt that, you know, I mean, I I was out a lot. You know, I was a church musician. So I never felt that. Unless I was out for an extended period of time. Like when I would do summers in Rome. I was five, five weeks, six weeks. Yeah, I did. For sure. I did. Because I knew all of it fell in unseal you know, and I wasn't there to sort of pick up the slack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for answering that. I know. It's, I feel, no, it's something that fascinates me. But again, I, I want to be respectful when I ask people about things like that, because, you know, it's a bit of a, you're asking people to tell, you know, really private things about themselves. So appreciate you indulging me. Well, I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because I think people who, who will listen to this should think there's, this is these are questions that, you know, are there and other people have coped with this before, and are coping with it now. It's not like a new thing. It's not. And, you know, like, with anything else, we, you know, like your, your story about feeling bad, because she's, you know, missing mum time. I mean, that that's something you put on yourself. That's not, that's not you create, you can create your own thing. You know, and I think in this in this age that we're in now, people respect when you create your own thing, and you're and you're strict with it, perhaps 40 years ago, no, you know, that question whether you are a good mother, if you were out, you know, but that, to me seems something that is more someone someone's demanding of themselves rather than it's coming from outside? Yeah, I think I feel like social media has had this impact of, of showing us so many different elements of people's lives, that allows us to compare elements of our own lives with them. But I think what we have to remember is that what people place on social media is very curated, and they're generally only showing the best bits. And so it's like, the advent of social media has allowed more comparison. And I think allowed more people to question themselves. I don't know, am I doing it right? Or what are people going to think if I do this, or, you know, whereas I think sometimes it's better just to do what works for your family and in stay really insular in your thoughts and not think about what's happening. You know, the last I checked, there was no manual. There's no degree on any of this. And, and there's no one way, you know, and so I, you know, we I think we all come into this thing with, obviously, what we were brought up with, knowing what worked and what didn't work, or what we want to imitate and what we certainly don't want to imitate. And then we go from there. And it's a partnership for one. It's not just one person deciding that. I know some families where it is all only one person and frankly, they're dysfunctional. And so, in some sense, you know, like to me bringing up children and also create a household idea is it's creative because it is based on the on the two of you. And it's also based on what, you know, your children's needs, etc. And there's no one way. I don't think there is no. Oh, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. definitely agree with that. If you've got anything, any projects coming up or anything you want to share about it might have in the works or anything at all? Really? Yeah. It's a little slow for me getting back right now. Because the some of the things that I was involved with, are taking your time coming back. I've been I'm playing more, which is good. The conducting is coming a little slow. Right now, I was supposed to do conduct on Giovanni in Romania before this pandemic hit. And so I'm kind of like in a in a negotiation, trying to get that either in June or possibly in September. But I don't have any pressing things at the moment. In some ways, that's good. Well, my oldest daughter is getting married in October. And so that is pressing. It's pretty important. That is pressing. But in terms of artistic stuff. I don't I don't I don't think so. I am revisiting Don Giovanni, just in case I do call to do that in June, because it's a pretty big, pretty big work. I'd like to get that off on my back and off my off the table. But that's, yeah, I mean, that's, as of right now. My, my modus operandi is the, you know, when when the things come in, jump on them. I have no real plans. You know, I hope that some of the smaller theaters that I was working in, will start coming out, you know, the problem is, is that they were unwilling to commit to performance venues, because they weren't sure they're going to get closed again. Yeah. And, you know, the beauty is living an hour outside of New York, but also the problem is, is I'm an hour outside of New York. And so anybody in New York can gobble up whatever it is very quickly. Yeah. So but that's okay. You know, I stuff, things will come back, and perhaps things will come back that where I can go back picking and choosing what I want. I'm done with just grabbing anything that comes along, no matter how miserable it is. Yeah. Yeah, you can do it because you want to do it and you're passionate about it. Yeah, it's nice to take a step back a little bit, actually. And you know, to think a little bit more about all this and study a little bit more about all this and and then we'll see. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for being a part of this special Father's Day episode. I'm very, very grateful for your time and for your candor, and your honesty, and I've really enjoyed our chat. Thank you, John. I enjoyed our tattoos. It was fun, and good luck to you and keep singing. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Monika Crowley Irish print maker, oils artist and visual artist S2 Ep27 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Monika Crowley, a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin, Ireland, and a mother of 2. Monika spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home & the changing expectations of modern motherhood. Monika uses mundane objects in a symbolic, transformative manner whereby they become totems & talismans of the past. Monika strives to capture the essence of a mothers guilt, the feeling of being torn in two and the resentment from the other self. A decade on, her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves Mother/Artist. Her work walks a line between anger & love, between despair & joy, her explorations of the everyday are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also have a little chat about the Irish horse racing industry, of which Monika's father and her family were a significant part of. **This episode contains discussions around Cancer, grief and loss of a parent** View Monika's work Space Invaders , - https://www.instagram.com/p/CPlzt6pnaCX/ Motherload - https://www.instagram.com/p/CUki0cdsH9-/ Compart Mental Isation - https://monikacrowley.com/blog/ Monika's website - https://monikacrowley.com/ instagram - https://www.instagram.com/monikacrowley/ Watch a murmuration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4f1r80RY Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. My guest on today's episode is Monica Crowley. Monica is a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin in Ireland and a mother of two. Monica has spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home and the changing expectations of modern motherhood. monarchy uses mundane objects in a symbolic transformative manner, whereby they become totems and talismans of the past. Earlier Prince had their starting point in motherhood as a rite of passage. They served as a memoir comm warning about nostalgia for retro culture at a time when mothers were not expected to juggle jobs and families. Monica strives to capture the essence of a mother's guilt, the feeling of being torn into and the resentment from the other self. A decade on her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves, mother and artist. Her work walks a line between anger and love, between despair and joy. Her explorations of the every day, are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times, finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also chat a little today about Monica's connection to the Irish racing industry. This episode contains discussion around grief and loss. Welcome along today, Monica. It's a pleasure to have you all the way from Ireland. Thank you very much for coming on. Thanks, Alison. And thanks for doing it at my local time when the kids were in schools. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have people constantly opening the door behind me. I can understand that. Now. It's pretty good here. It's almost eight o'clock at night. So it's a pretty good time for me to so the kids will be off to bed and I won't have to worry about doors at my end too. So we're about in Ireland, are you? I'm in Dublin. So it's gray and cold out my window. We had a bit of snow last week, but it seems to be hopefully brightening up this week a little bit. Oh, I'm jealous because we don't get so where I am. It just doesn't. It's not cold enough. And I've spent well I shouldn't say I'm jealous today because I've spent the day swimming and a little bit sunburn you might be able to see. But I never had the story. Like it's something I've never, never done been in the snow so well. Unfortunately, Irish snow is generally wet and sleety every now and again. We get you know decent snow but it's not. It's not a country for skiing snowmen every now and again. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Share with us. What sort of art that you make. So I suppose up to recently have been predominantly a printmaker. I used to work in advertising and design. So I think printmaking was a really natural step for me because they kind of understood, you know, color mixing and separations and plates and that kind of technical aspect of the process. So and also because I was back then, I was renting. I didn't have studio space. So being part of a print, making studio I'm a member of the Black church print studio. And it was a good way to have a place where I could go and work and keep all my stuff and keep my art practice going. While I was still working as well, so, yeah, yeah, in the last couple of years, I've, my practice has kind of changed a bit, I suppose, because of lockdown printmaking, and go into my print studio was a lot harder the studio was closed up. So I did a lot more drawing at home and painting. So I'm, I'm actually doing a lot more oil painting at the moment. Yeah, that's cool. What do you prefer to do? Do you like your, your printmaking better? Or? I don't know, are you sometimes feel like there's this hierarchy in the art world stuff. I'm like, you sometimes hit a wall and you go, you know, am I getting that response, because I'm a printmaker, and the value of printing is perceived as lower. So I, you know, I sometimes come up against it. And I find it quite frustrating that the value of a print even though it's like quite a hard technical process to do, somebody described at one says, like, totally over complicating the process of creating art is so as I think, I suppose, as well, being able to join lock downs, and all I've been able to keep my practice going and being able to draw and paint at home, made me realize, you know, sometimes, actually, that remove of going to a print studio. While it's nice, it's nice to be able to get up in the morning and sneak an hour before the kids get up in, you know, in my home studio. So, and I guess then if, if you have an idea anytime you can sort of act on it, rather than have to keep it till you can physically get to the Fluffies. Yeah, exactly. And I suppose you keep your notebooks going, although I do find myself, you know, sneaking upstairs and saying, I just have to go do something and running upstairs and getting stuck into something. Because now I can. And, you know, I, I tell the kids, I'll be back in 10 minutes, you know, do your homework, and I come back 45 minutes later, an hour later. They're watching TV and the homework isn't done. And I'm like, oh, god, okay. It's very hard to, to thread that balance. I think one of the things people have talked about on your podcast before, and it probably comes up a lot is that struggle between when you're in the mother role, you constantly you never switch off being an artist to your head, you constantly frustrated that wanting to get back to your canvas. But, you know, when you're working at your canvas, if you can hear your children in the vicinity, your mother had never switches off either. So there's just this constant struggle for space in my brain, I feel. Yeah. So you said you had the notebooks is that something a tool that you use to sort of to help, obviously, to make notes, but to bring yourself into this space and say, right, I'm gonna make a note, then I can, you know, relax my brain, because now I've got that written down. I can move on sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Because you're constantly getting distracted and interrupted, and then when I go to sit down or get my students like, Oh, my God, what, what was that? Like, I had this flash of genius. Now, I can't remember it. So, and if I don't have my notebook to hand, like, I will use my phone to document it, or I will use notes a lot on my phone as well. You know, I take photographs and and notate it and then I can come back to it. At least I've recorded it, but I do. I do think keep a notebook. So is it a good practice? So kind of, then you can make sense as you. You see things develop and you go oh, yeah, actually that came from way Back, when I actually have a note of that, it will could take months to act on something that they've actually written down. So that would be fascinating actually, at the end of a project, and then you've got this record, and you can browse back through and go, Oh, yeah, like you said, you can see where it started. Or you might even see something and go, Oh, I sort of, you know, I might have bypassed that, but now I'm interested in that, or, you know, it's, it'd be awesome to have that that record. I worked in advertising and design for about 20 years, when I, when I was a kid, I just always wanted to go to art college, I had, which I got to go to art college, but I had to persuade my parents that, you know, I would get a job at the end of this. So I studied, I actually went to art college studying Industrial Design, which is product design. Yeah. And, you know, until my mother Oh, I mean, practically engineering. She, if she did that, then I kind of segwayed and took a very, you know, a long route through art college. And I actually finally graduated in Visual Communications, which meant I went into graphic design and then into advertising from there. So, so that, but at the same time I was working, and it was creative. And it was a really good grounding. Like, I don't regret the course, or the, the journey my practice has taken because it's really good grounding in notebooks and research and because you always have sketchbooks on the go, and you're always sketching out ideas, and, you know, and having to articulate ideas and concepts. So that's, and I even, like, even when you're designing, I always felt there had to be thinking behind it and concept behind us. So and that's how my art practices as well. I find it very hard to do a picture that doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. It's just, it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe, I don't know, is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, it started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took and I think when I became pregnant with my first child, it just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished, where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit Battery tech Yeah? I wanted to ask you flooding leading to a beautifully there's there was a piece that I saw on your Instagram account that you called Space Invaders. And I won't try and describe it, I'll let you describe it. Can you just share the background for that and what the inspiration was for that for that pain? Yes. So that was a print actually, I have, I think I have a sketch up on my wall, you can kind of see up there behind me. So that actually was a project that stemmed from the initial lockdown, and I was doing a lot of work at home. And I eventually took over the children's playroom, which is where I am now. And it became my home studio. So all the shelves around me, which is now full of my stuff was was initially full of the kids toys, and it's where they came and played. So I set up a desk here and I started working here. But you know, the kids, there was this constant kind of battleground, I saw my desk as this battleground, like I would leave to go down and make dinner or whatever, and then come back and I would find some of the children's toys like propped up like, obviously, on my desk, either abandoned, or like deliberately put there as almost like, some kind of protest that you undertake, they claim back on their face. Yeah, exactly. It became this disputed territory where, you know, it's like, that's our room. No, it's my room now. So if it was this, so the print behind me there, it's, I think I call that one cutting ties. And it was I came back and my son's toy Hulk fist was balancing on top of my scissors on my desk. And I was like, on it, there's just something so aggressive, but yet so playful about it, you know, and that was you know, and I have another one that I call mother's bottle and it was my child my daughter's doll naked, because they don't know what the clothes from my children's dolls just they never seem to have them on. And, and had knocked over my water bottle and spilled water across my desk. And I just, you know that it kind of brought up so many different kinds of images and emotions like that doll very much represents my daughter, and even just the water bottle in a way kind of represents me and it's that whole being torn into of having these two cells that are constantly vying for your attention. Your art it's that struggle I mentioned earlier, where half your brain is thinking about ideas and half your brain is thinking about what's for dinner. Let's see at the exact same moment. Yeah, it never stops so going back to your early days when you say like you had to convince your mom to to let you do your study. Were you always a very creative child growing up? Yeah, I think so. Well, it's I always loved painting and always loved art and always wanted to be an artist. My family, I live in Dublin now but I grew up down in Kilkenny. And my mom always had this thing my family my dad was a racehorse trainer. And we I have five sisters. So the six girls, we all worked with horses. is all the time. But my mum was always like we're always having broken arms and broken legs and ending up in hospital. And she used to say to us, I don't care what you do when you grow up, you'll have your own jobs and your own lives. I don't want you to work in horse racing, or art of this of the six girls for have ended up in horse racing. And two, I'm an artist and my other sister has an art gallery. So I think I think she could just see the way things were going, like, really early on, and she tried to redirect us. But I think once your brain is set on something, you know, you're going to end up there. If you're driven enough, no matter how much you're kind of diverted, you're going to weave back around to what you really want. So yeah, that's it. There's there's no stopping that. That inner passion. I don't think it's just an even if you try to try and stop it. It's yeah, it still tries to creep out does that. Yeah. Do you? You mentioned your children a little bit too. Can you tell us how many children you have a little bit about your family? Yeah, I have two children, a 10 year old daughter. She's the eldest and a seven year old son. And yeah, they're, they're great. They're the at a really good age, I think. And I, I always, when I was younger, I didn't ever know. I couldn't ever imagine me with babies. Because I was the youngest of my family, I'd never even held a baby. When I was about 16. I went to France and worked as an au pair, where I looked after a baby, it was my first time ever even holding a child. Even I wasn't one of those people in school who went you know, as the younger groups came into school that I would go and oh, the new kids are in Yeah, I actually really didn't care about anybody younger than myself. I always wanted to hang out with people older than me. So I think that's why when I was pregnant with my first child, it was kind of traumatic of like, I don't think I can do this. I could see myself with older children, but never with babies. But obviously, like now, 10 years on, I realized that everybody's just learning as they go along. And you know, babies are quite forgiving. They love you. No matter how terrible you are as a mother. Thank goodness for that. Yeah, so do you, when you when you had your first child, your daughter, where you work while you're doing your art, like a lot at the time, and did have to sort of stop? Or did you manage to keep going? How did it sort of work? Weirdly, I think it amped up a bit at the time, because I mentioned earlier. I, my art had been about traveling and things like that. And then suddenly this fear of you know, motherhood and what was expected of me. And, you know, I worked full time and all my spare time was given to my art. And now I was going to be a mother and working. So working motherhood on art. I was like, how do the three things fit into each other. But like I said, I needed the therapy, almost of doing the art. So my first solo show is is was called domestic. And it was about when my mom found out I was pregnant. She sent me her recipe for brown bread. Actually, she ran me and said, I'll give you my recipe for gram bread now and I was like, oh my god is that who will I will become this person who makes bread. And I just couldn't get my head around it. Because I'm a terrible Baker and I still am. So I just said no, I can't even deal with you've given me this recipe over the phone. So she wrote it down and sent it to me in a letter. So I had this letter. And that was the starting point for doing this whole series. called domestic, which was about the fear of becoming a mother. But it was centered around, I always use kind of ordinary objects to kind of trigger emotion. And you know, this kind of sense of recognition yourself like, like, oh, so I use the recipe for brown bread. And I did make the brown bread once. really badly. No, it was edible. We'll just leave it at that. But isn't that interesting? That's like, your mom sort of had it was almost like this initiation. It's like, okay, now you're allowed to know these these things you weren't allowed to know before. This Fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not that I wasn't allowed to know them. It's like, she just thought I would have no interest in nowhere, which I did. I didn't have any interest in making brown bread. And then when I was told, Oh, now you'll probably want to make brown bread. I was like, oh, so me as a person, I'm going to change completely. Yeah. Okay. I had never even thought that. But actually, I didn't, I never became this person who made brown bread. So I can sort of like, if you're already feeling a little bit anxious about everything. And then to get that and to have that, that moment of going, Oh, hang on a sec, I'm going to these all these changes are going to happen. Like that would have been quite startling, like, not very reassuring. Yeah, like the whole pregnancy and your body changing and all that that's a very physical and normal and well kind of documented kind of process that you can google and go, Okay, that's totally normal. What I wasn't prepared for I think, was just the avalanche of advice, and all these conflicting things that people are telling you and telling you about the person you will become. And I was like, I don't want to change I still want to be me, you so can I not be me, an artist and a mother and still do my job. But, of course, some things do change, but some things don't. I think it's so it's so important to to keep your pre pre pray mother self, it's like, it's so important. And yeah. It's even, you know, my daughter, she keeps pointing out to me that I'm a decade now. So like, I, I can now look at the whole, the whole thing is still very fresh to me a decade later, I still very clearly remember. But the trauma of that change that was happening. And I still, I'm still struggling with my identity, like 10 years later, of how much of me is me? And how much do I give over? And even that guilt of like, am I holding myself? Too much of myself back? When I'm with my kids, I throw myself into it. And you know, I love them. And I love them, Tibet and have great fun with them. Like we have great crack, that really at a lovely age at the moment where, you know, they're interested in things and their brains are just fascinating, like, like my daughter is cleverer than I am. When we were locked down there for the last 10 days with COVID. She learned how to do a Rubik's Cube, something I have never been able to do. And I found myself last night like googling it and doing a step by step guide and I swore I wanted to throw the thing in the bin and I was like, How does she do this? She's 10 Like she has worked a site and I can't. COVID the pandemic started or whatever. I actually took a step back from work. And the work was always an important part of my identity as well. I was a creative director and an advertising agency when all this hat and I just did took a step back and needed to be with the children. And it was just this, like a one stop, it was kind of taken away, I realized how much of myself I was giving to work, actually. And when it was just divided between my art and my children, I actually saw that that's where a lot of the struggle was happening. But also, I realized how much of myself I'd been given away to work. And because I suppose also your job is creative. It sucks a lot of the creative energy out of us so, but I still, I feel like now I have a much better life balance where it's, you know, probably I was gonna say 50% Children 50% Or it's but it's probably 70% Children 30% ours if I was to be totally honest. With the guilt then, do you ever feel like the pool between, like, do you ever consciously have that thought I shouldn't be doing this art now. Because the kids are meant to be doing their homework and I need to check on it. Like, does it feel like that? That Oh, all the time, all the time. It never stops. If when I'm doing one thing, I feel like I should be doing the other. If and then, you know, then I have like a my different kind of selves start to resent each other. You know, I feel like there's a constant struggle in my head, I have to say, where if I'm in the zone painting. And I'm just thinking, Oh, I just I just need half an hour. And I hear myself saying that the children are knocking at the door. Because they're hungry, or, you know, I want to do this or can you open that for me or you know, and I'm like, Just give me 30 more minutes, I swear, I'll be done in 30 minutes. And you know, and then when I'm i if i But if I don't get that time to do my art, I find myself just being this horrible, angry person that I don't like, you know that. You know, even though my seven year old will come and hug me he really knows how to defuse my pent up frustration, he'll come and hug me and go, Oh, Mommy, Mommy, I love you. Please don't be angry mommy, which he sees as a whole other person. And it's angry mommy who comes out when I when I just feel like I haven't been able to get into my studio and do anything. I feel. Actually, I'm just a much nicer person. When I have my art practice running smoothly as well. Like some days you really feel like you're winning and oh my god, I'm totally killing this. I'm like doing everything. You know that like, yeah, I am the woman who has it all. Oh my god, this is incredible. And, unfortunately, it's where those days are rare. But for for the most part, I can resolve the fact of you know, okay, today, I didn't spend as much time in my studio or, you know, things just didn't work out when I was there. But, you know, tomorrow will be a better day, I've become a lot better. I think actually motherhood teaches you the US you know, as babies, you're always told, you know, tomorrow will be better, you know, and not pits reset on everything. So I bring that to my own life. You know, I'm just gonna sleep on this and reset and in the morning everything will be better. So yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I remember having those feelings of when like in the middle of the night I'd just be thinking that's okay. The sun will come up in the morning and we'll just start again and just see how this makes one goes and yeah, that's a really good way of looking at you know, yeah, I don't like and you and your expectations I suppose around what what you want Want to get done and what you life allows you to get done, I suppose. Yeah. And even like just looking at children and IVIG can go to bed being these like really angry and you know, you're having a big row about something. And the next morning, they've totally forgotten about it and you're like, okay, okay, I suppose I better just forget about that too. And move on. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's so true Yep. Wanted to ask you about, there's a series that you did the compact compart mental causation. So it's spilling over the three lines. All right, this was like, personally, my my pop that passed away. Just recently, he was 1994. And when I saw the things like, I just like the birds and I don't know, it's, it was like I was meant to see it because he had pigeons. And so all these all the birds that you had, sorry, I'm talking about this, people won't know what I'm talking about. So I'll put a link up. And then the window. It was just I got really like smacked in the heart by that it was just incredibly moving. Thank you again. And like, like I said earlier, a lot of my work becomes, it comes out of me working through emotions. And just at the beginning of the pandemic, my dad passed away. Again, he was 92. It was just before his birthday is 92nd birthday, actually. And he'd been sick for a while. So my six six girls and my mom, we were down there with him when he died. And there were a couple of days where we were kind of waiting for the inevitable to happen. It was really kind of torturous, long drawn out kind of fairly traumatic, actually the whole thing. And we sat in his room and the these murmurations just started in the evening, which we didn't really have grown up when I was a kid murmuration of starlings. And it became a kind of a thing that we did, we'd go out and watch the birds and then come back in. And it's funny, like you mentioned that your your dad kept pigeons. My dad actually had this like, like, because we had racehorses, he had this thing that the birds were like eating the horses feed and shipping and the horses he used to have this ongoing battle with keeping the birds away so it was just weird that all these birds like that this became a thing and Mike my childhood growing up I won't go into the graphic stories of what happens on farms when people are trying what they kind of considered to be pest control. But my dad was not very nice to birds, I think. And we lived out in the country and it was just he just wanted them away. So it just became this weird kind of thing as I watched him die to see the birds flying around. They just seem to all most come back and I don't know I don't know if it was something that I don't even think it was his Spirit coming back as birds I don't know Was there some kind of karma in but but even even just to kind of watch the birds from his room. So it became very represent representative of him and the idea of compartmentalization was I like obviously I loved my Dad, and we all idolized him for that you could in depth, we kind of put away all the things that were bad about the person, like he wasn't a saint, and he was a tough man to grow up with me. I think he made us all quite tough. But, you know, nobody talked about any of the bad stuff at the funeral. It was all very, wasn't he great? And I think that's a very Irish thing to do. Or maybe it was, it's just something we deal with. In grief, you have to put things in boxes and kind of put them away and go, do you know what, right now I'm just not going to deal with that, I'm just going to deal with this little piece of how I'm feeling. So that's, that was how that I did a window done in the black church print studio, a little display where I actually printed a murmuration on a downstairs bathroom window from my house where my dad used to watch the birds and decide to go out and kill some of them like, to be perfectly honest. And so I actually brought a new thing into my practice as well, where it was like printing on find objects and kind of moving off paper and editions and stuff like that as well. Yeah. So it'd be just like experimenting with with things. Yeah, with materials. And just, I suppose I never really felt the need to. I think that the part of me that isn't a printmaker is I don't need to do, you know, 10 perfectly executed prints in that they are absolutely identical. For me, it's the process of printing and the process of bringing to life an idea that kind of exercises, the feelings and the emotions. And that's my therapy. And once it's done, it's done. And I find it really hard to revisit, I could never reprint anything I've printed before. Once it's done, it's gone. And yeah, that emotion has left me almost Yeah. I had cancer a couple of years ago, and some of my work was was about that. Just, I suppose in terms of me using my art as a kind of a therapy to work through stuff. So that actually was, again, a huge part of recovery. From in fact that I did a show at the time called treatment, which was obviously just coming out of treatment, and it was even kind of linked to this whole desire for things that comfort you like and looking at my children and I think at the time I was constantly like, giving them treats as well. And so the again, the words often the kind of Lincoln spark things in my head and and, you know, whereas at the time when I was sick, I couldn't really stomach sweet things, but I was craving them but like I'm feeding them to my children as a way of comforting them or compensation that mommy couldn't be there because she was in hospital or whatever. So so that was just, yeah, I think I'm tired of treatment about two years and I finished in early 2018. So gosh, four years. Good for you. Do your children. That's sort of a two part question. So your children are aware of your artmaking and your tuition? And if that's the case, is it important for you that they see that they see what you're doing and what you're putting out to the world? Yeah, I certainly don't keep them away from us. Like, on occasion, I've bought them to my print studios well, and I suppose I don't sit down and explain my work to them. But they're definitely they know that they're in the work. And sometimes I kind of talked to them about it. Like the piece I mentioned earlier motherlode where I felt I came across as quite dark and negative towards parenting. It was important to me that my children knew that, like, I love them. Absolutely, wholeheartedly. And that it was about the the accumulation and the drudgery of the little small tasks that that just get on top of you that it's not the mothering part, it's the all the little things that build and build and build. That, you know, so it's important that they know how much I love them. And that if my work deals with the network and negative aspects of motherhood, that, that it's not about them. It's about the role. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's not direct reflection on them personally. Yeah, absolutely. And do you sort of feel like, it's good for them to say that, like that identity, again, that, that mums can be more than, say, just a mom, because whenever just mom, but in your children's eyes, is it? Do you feel like it's good for them to see you, you know, leaving the home and doing your thing? And, you know, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I would hate if, like, when I'm talking about my art, I refer to it as work as well, since I left advertising and leaving the house to like, earn a wage. I suppose I did kind of feel like my art isn't necessarily earning a wage. But I refer to it as my work, because I would hate my children to differentiate between the fact that my husband works. And that his work has more value and more importance, because he gets paid for it. So there's always this balance of my art definitely does come second, as work in the house, because, you know, it can get pushed and deadlines are a little bit more flexible, and we need to pay the bills. But it's important for me that they understand that my work is important to absolutely, he put that beautifully. That was very well put. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that I refer to my music now I say, I'm going to do some music work. Because it's like, I it's so important to me. And it's not just um, fluffing around and having a bit of fun. Like, I do love it. And it's fun, but it's like, I want to get something done. I'm trying to achieve something. So to me, it's like it is work. It's labor, you know? So yeah, I've started constantly calling that. I don't know, when the kids have noticed. Yeah, but I think it just it does, it reinforces something, a degree of worth on what we're doing. And that it's not like he said, just me playing and having a nice time. Like it actually it is work it is hard to it would be very easy just to sit down and do nothing when you know, the kids are in bed or distracted with something else. So it would be easy not to do work. But the fact that you compel you're compelled to go in and work out your music and I'm compelled to go work out my art. You know, it's and I think a work a work ethic is also important. So you know, I want the guys to know that I when they go to school, I get up every day and I'm like in my studio working until I become mom and have to go pick them up and do the after school activities and stuff. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, absolutely. Literally Yep. I can't let you go without asking you about your connection to your racing family, which I did Google actually. It's pretty impressive that your sister married Aiden O'Brien. And this is Joseph O'Brien, who's where to milk and converse. I do have my nephew Joseph Joseph O'Brien. He is called Joseph after my dad's. And he trains on the hill at home in Kilkenny where my dad trained his horses. So basically, my when my sister and Marie my eldest sister got married, she married Aiden, who worked for another trainer Jim Bolger. When they got married, he moved over to us in Kilkenny, and they, my dad kind of said, Okay, you can train on, you know, my gallops and gave them kind of half of the so they built their own stables and they we all trained together. So my dad was still training at the time, and he's super competitive. So he, you know, obviously Aiden is pretty competitive as well. So, actually, my dad had handed my license his license to my sister, who then gave it transferred to Aiden when she got pregnant, which was a she was pregnant, like, very young, she thinks she was 23. So, you know, I think then, my dad just couldn't, like, cope with the fact that, you know, Aiden was in a training on the hill, even though Aiden was like, he wasn't well known back then he kind of made his name then training with my dad, and well in competition to my dad. So, like, the dinner table was always, you know, quite funny. And, you know, then my next sister married a national hunt jockey, travel Oregon. Then my next sister had an art gallery and then my next sister married paths Mullen, yep. And she was well known racehorse trainer as well. And Pat was champion, flat jockey here like, God, I don't know, 10 times in a row. And then my twin sister is married to a jockeys agent and racing pundit on a racing channel here. So that's so my, my husband's like our family gatherings like people just talk core. So I like that horse racing is always on. Probably on about three different TVs in the house. You know, when when we get together like that, people just talk horses. Yeah, I can imagine it'd be bad. Like if you didn't enjoy the trophy, just to sit there and take it. Yeah. I mean, I worked with the horses myself, like up until I was about 18 or 19. I had a jockeys license I wrote as an apprentice. Oh, yeah. But I think a lot of it was just trying to prove that I could do it. I really did not have the interest or passion for horses, like I know, I loved horses. It's not something I yeah, for the industry. I didn't want to spend my life in horse racing. Yeah. Is it really scary writing, like, riding them that fast? I'm sorry, that just came in and no, yeah, it's, do you know what it's actually it's not the speed you're going us. For me? It was the sense of control I. They're, like, it's this muscle of machine that you have to be in control of, and I just never felt in control of the horse completely. And, again, it was it's kind of a battle of wills as to whether the horse is allowing you to control it and you know, I always felt like if they weren't allowing me to, so I used To get run away with all the time I was kind of small and light, so and the amount of times like the horse would just take off at me and I like that is the scary part of it of not being in control. So I it's funny I yeah, I ended up in hospital several times with head injuries and broken legs and actually one of the pieces we discussed earlier one of my art pieces, that's the water bottle knocked over with the dead baby doll. The words bottle actually is a racing term. It's like a jockeys bottle is your bravery. So I would often like have like said to my sisters, no, I've totally lost my bottle. I can't do this anymore. A year. So in a weird way, like bottle is courage and bravery. And and that was the kind of a phrase that was in my head when I was doing that art piece. And it probably comes from my racing background Yeah. Can I ask you what you've got coming up? If you're working on anything in particular? I mean, with the COVID restrictions, I don't know if that means you can't do shows or anything. But if you got anything you want to mention. Yeah, well, I was part of a group show last year that I organized with seven other artists and I did a piece called motherlode for that, which was it was again, one off piece, it was four canvases that where I repeated these three objects over and over and over again to show this kind of build of I suppose the build of the daily burden of motherhood and parenthood. Yeah, that kind of falls to us. And when I stood back and looked at it, I had the pieces quite gray and blue and dark. And it felt like, you know, that was definitely something that was coming out of the pandemic and didn't really feel like me. So I actually have made a conscious decision where I want to do something that redresses that balance of that last piece that I feel, you know, came out of me, but maybe miss represents where I am now, you know, I've been working on a body of work called the kitchen sink, which, again, sounds depressing, and was coming from waking up every morning and making coffee and looking into my sink and going, Oh, my God, you know, there was always like some kind of dirty dishes in there that never either made it into the washing machine or were put in after the washing machine was put on. And it was like building this resentment and frustration in me. And I thought, I need to redress my thinking here and start thinking, and I started seeing the kitchen sink as an art project. So I would look in the sink and see what was in there. And it would become a memory and nice memory of the meal we'd had the evening before. So I started sketching what was in the thing, or taking photographs and sketching it later. And then working out. You know, just while I was doing that, thinking about the meal we had and the conversations we had. And suddenly it became this beautiful thing where again, I use objects to kind of symbolically word these objects in a sink became this symbolic diary entry of my life almost so can't wait. Well, it's something I've been working on for the last few months. And now I'm also just about to I was supposed to move into a new studio, which I have temporarily with Randall Arts at a local arts organization that I work with. So I'm going to take the back room here. It's an it's an initiative I want to bring to other businesses that rooms that are lying empty for businesses that they could do short term art artists residencies in there. So I'm doing a kind of a pilot scheme, I'm going to be moving into the back room of this building today, and start painting from there for a month or two months or six weeks and see how it goes. So that's kind of excited. Yeah, I'm a little bit terrified of moving to somewhere a bit more public as well, you kind of have that fear of exposing yourself of like, because not every piece works actually. Okay. And you're like going, Oh, no, that's crap, I just have to put that facing the wall. So nobody ever sees that again. Or, you know, like I am used to being in my print studio, where other people are there, and you're meeting other people. So but I, I know, was part of this, moving down to this temporary art studio. At the end of this residency, I plan to do kind of an open day in the studio and invite people in and talk about my work. Because I mean, there has to be, I wanted to be of benefit to the arts organization, as well. So there has to be kind of a quid pro quo. So so I'm interested to see how how it will affect my work. And, you know, will I even be able to work there? I'm kind of slightly terrified. It's a new adventure, I have to say, well, there you go. It'll be an interesting challenge. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, it's important to keep moving forward and do stuff that terrifies you. I try to I try to not shy away from things that scare me. So I always say to my, I always say to my daughter, you know, being brave is being scared, but doing it anyway. That's so true, isn't it because you're allowed to feel scared, but then you have to do it. Anyway. That's actually a quote that one of the girls I interviewed early in season one said said the same thing. He said, You can be scared you can be terrified out of out of your mind. But you have to do it anyway. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been lovely, was great. And it's, it's fascinating. I'm really interested in the fact that, like, sometimes we don't, I think in the art world as well, like, there's this concept of, you know, I don't want to be a mommy artists kind of talking about motherhood. And I made a conscious decision not to shy away from us, because I just, I like, it's who I am. Some people do their work, and it's escapism from, you know, the drudgery and the mundane and the every day, but I I kind of my work is my life in a way. So I just, it's a record of it or so. So I feel like it's, maybe I talk about it too much. But I think I think we don't talk about it enough. Honestly, I just think I think you're right, people have this stigma that you can't have the two coexisting. It's like, if you want to be serious, you got to just put all that to one side and just, you know, pretend it's Yeah, but it's innate. It's a part of you. And it's, you can't help but have it influence what you do, whether you realize it or not, but I think but yeah, it's maths even. Yeah, like, I remember even in work in advertising, you know, some people would, it would almost be taboo to say that you had to leave work to pick up your children, like people almost pretended they weren't parents. That's scary, isn't it? And I just feel like this is like a huge part of who I am. And I can't deny it or pretend it doesn't exist and why would I want to? So I kind of make no apologies for my art dealing with motherhood and it's nice to see that there. I see different organizations around the world. I'm a member of a group in Edinburgh called Spilt Milk. And we're again, it's a support network for artists who are mothers. And not all the work deals directly with motherhood, but it's just, it's interesting. It really makes me feel part of a community. I don't have that direct support in Dublin or in Ireland. But I find the support internationally, more readily available. So that means that's fantastic. So I was delighted to when you reached out to get in touch about it. Oh, that's great. I appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Are you itching for a good story? laughter among friends maybe even a mystery or two? Well, you're in luck. Five Raven kings is a standalone Dungeons and Dragons podcast. Each episode is a separate three hour long story like a movie for your ears. So you can listen to these adventures in any order you like. So join us on a real play d&d quest as we solve mysteries attempt, comedic banter and enjoy friendship. Fiber Ethan kittens podcast, fantasy, action, mystery, friendship

Jennifer Donohue Irish painter and writer S3 Ep92 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week Im pleased to welcome Jennifer Donohue to the podcast, Jennifer is an painter and writer from County Clare in Ireland and a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid-20s working in print journalism before returning to college to get a degree in Marketing and Management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created art. Although she loved the act of painting, loved trying to create pretty work and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness, it was lacking in something and it wasn’t until she started back writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. Once she began writing more often, a funny thing happened – she began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there, emerged the new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in paint - and a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poem/prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood - the love, the grief, the loss, the happiness, and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through land and seascapes, botanical art and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked deeper meaning in her art and she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. **This episode contains discussion around pregnancy loss, miscarriage and grief** Jennifer - Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Apologies for my voice at the moment. I'm just cut recovering from a bout of pneumonia coupled with COVID-19 diagnosis. So things have been fun lately, but I am getting there. And I'm pleased to be able to bring this episode to you today. This week. I welcome Jennifer Donahue to the podcast. Jennifer is a painter and a writer from County Clare in Ireland and she's a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid 20s working in print journalism, before returning to college to get a degree in marketing and management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created her art. Although she loves the act of painting, love trying to create pretty work, and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness. It was lacking in something. It wasn't until she started writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. When she began writing more often a funny thing happened. She began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there emerged a new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to Canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in the paint. And a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poems and prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood, the love, the grief, the loss, and the happiness and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through landscapes, and seascapes, botanical art, and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked a deeper meaning in her art. And she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. Please be aware that this episode today contains discussion around pregnancy loss and miscarriage and grief. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Jennifer. It's really lovely to meet you. Yes, and thanks so much for having me. I'm very excited. It's my pleasure. And I've got to say I'm very very grateful of all the sharing of posts and and things that you do with my podcast on Instagram. I really appreciate it very much. Oh, no budget at all, I think well, I look as I said at dinner I love listen to podcasts and you know, some of the guests you've had on are absolutely amazing, amazing women. I mean, you know, these are definitely stories, you know, you want to share out and the little share on Instagram, you know when you can I mean? All of it helps as much ya know. And honestly, it means so much like I don't know, I think yeah, I don't know. It can seem so simple but it makes such a difference and I'm really appreciate it so thank you for that. So we were just I was just saying before I hit record how much I love your your Irish accent. Thanks very much. Tell me about where you're from in Ireland. Yeah, so I live in County Clare. So a little town called Ennis though it's about 10 Tails. It's the biggest town and clear but it's only about 10 15,000 people. So by Australian Standard is Like teeny teeny tiny place. But so if anybody you know, maybe your side of the world might be familiar with like the Cliffs of Moher, maybe you might have heard of that. Yeah, glyphs. Evolver is in County Clare. So that's maybe about 30 minutes from where I live. And originally, Originally, I'm from West Limerick, which is about an hour's drive south of here. Yeah, right. I've been in this for 10 years. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's actually there was a horse that came out here for the Melbourne Cup one year called cliffs have more. I'm saying it right. But yeah, so yeah, I said that. I just went, Oh, yeah, I know that name. Yeah. So yeah, a lot. A lot of people who don't? They've heard it before. So it's kind of a good landmark to give people an idea. It's, it's on the west coast of the country. Yeah. Right. Are you very north, or we're about sort of a year. So no, were very kind of nearly middle of the country. And kind of the rest of us. Yeah, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I'm getting getting good visual. Somewhere. I'd really love to go. I think I watched a lot of Father Ted many years. Oh, yeah. And I just did you get did you get? Did you get to did you get to humor? Oh, you've watched? I've watched five to 10 Australians and you're like, watch this. No, I loved it. I absolute because I was a fan of auto auto handling and been a fan of him for a while. And just like anything he does, I just I just laugh at him. I just think he's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's that other show I did was like Inferno man or third semi man or something. And it was just so ridiculous. But so funny. But now we've got this running joke. Now. You know, the episode where the heat. Ted has to keep Bishop Brennan up the ass. Oh, yeah. Bridget printed up the arse. And we have this joke. Now, if anyone gets kicked on the bottom, my little son who's seven you go, Oh, he's Bishop Brennan is good or bad. But it's very funny. hilarious. Hilarious. So yeah. Anyway, enough of that I could go on and on, but I'm not going to All right, so tell me how you got into your art form. And tell us about what you're doing what you create. So yeah, sure. So I suppose look, I suppose like a lot of people kind of being creative was really important to me, kind of growing up, we were always in really encouraged. You know, like drawing art. I remember one year, Santa Claus bought me this fantastic V tech digital art team. And it was just kind of, you know, you know, sometimes presence just kind of stand out, you're grateful and doing doing it. And, and then when I was a teenager, I did work experience in my local newspaper. And I was like, hang on a minute, people get paid to write. So I just, I just fell in love with the idea of journalism and writing because I loved English and, you know, typical teenager, you know, trying to write stories and novels and all this, you know, wishing for it was actually finished. But you know, you kind of keep writing away, you know, and so I actually did journalism was my first career. And so it was an I did journalism for a couple of years. And I just loved it. I just love being able to write I love to creativity, I love meeting people I loved, you know, just a whole, just the whole idea of it, that you could kind of come up with these ideas and get them on paper and, you know, influence people and people would, you know, read them and, you know, be inspired by them. And, yeah, it was fantastic. It was fantastic. And then in my early 20s, I did a lot of Irish people do and I would love to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Australia, realized that, okay, I don't have a degree. If I want to get back to Australia for longer, you know, you need to have a degree. So I came back to Ireland, and I said, I do a degree in marketing management. You know, I said, marketing is creative. You don't you do something in business. Yeah. And so I did that kind of my mid 20s. And then of course, by the time I'd have three years done, I was like, Oh, come back to Australia. I loved it, but you know, you're kind of starting again. And so it was like, okay, look, I'll get some experience here. So then I kind of fell into kind of marketing and kind of sales roles and the creativity went out the door. Like, you know, the writing, I had been dabbling in bit of art and do a bit of art, like, I don't art in school, I loved art, you know, these are all true, you know, kind of primary and secondary schools. So up to the age of 18, you know, loved it kind of dabbled in art and a little bit afterwards, but it kind of went to the wayside. And then, in 2018, I did an art class, just in the local when it local colleges here, you know, so it was just, you know, it was just a temporary course. And I was like, Oh, God, I really liked this. So, you know, so did I started kind of going back into it, and, you know, just just doing just tried to create, but I suppose, like, a lot of people, you know, I was forcing myself into doing what I thought was, you know, good, Eric, you know, like, if it wasn't detailed, or if it wasn't, blah, blah, blah, you know, didn't wasn't kind of good art. So I just didn't have an understanding of me as a creative as an artist as a visual creative. So, you know, so I was trying to do a lot of things that were completely out of my range, you know, skill level wise, and that kind of thing. But I kept doing because I was getting, I suppose, emotional fulfillment out of it, you know, it was a nice pastime. And, you know, it was kind of getting back their creative, creative spark again, you know, and then we had our Kate Connor in 2019. So, you know, so I was still kind of doing like, little bit of art kind of here and there. And I started doing things like hashtag challenges. So I set up an Instagram page for my art. And, you know, it wasn't that my art was brilliant. But I liked sharing with it, I like connecting with other artists with other creatives and that kind of thing. So it gave me this kind of outlet to kind of appreciate life and art and, you know, just having something I suppose for myself as well, you know, that kind of thing, you know, and so, yeah, so I was doing kind of hashtag challenges. And then I was finding this, you know, teams were starting to, you know, my act was kind of improving, and that kind of thing. And I was like, brilliant. But I still had no kind of, I suppose, connection with my art. And I suppose that's what kind of motherhood has in a roundabout way given me is my connection to my art, especially in the last year. The real value of my art I found over the last couple of years. Now, I know you mentioned trigger warnings. So I suppose I can do trigger warning here. Yeah, so miscarry, though, I'm bringing it up, because it's a definite part of my kind of creative kind of journey. Yeah. So I had my first miscarriage in August 2020. So it's 11 weeks, everything had been fine. Until it wasn't. And so I kind of turned to her again. And, you know, it was kind of giving me that little bit of hockey meat, I you know, I could just do something for myself. And decorating. And a dead saw. got pregnant again. And 22, early 2021 turned round, you know, and I started, you know, I'm just doing some hashtag challenges. And, unfortunately, I had another miscarriage. So go ahead. It's okay. Well, look, I look, I suppose. And look, if you do want to ask questions, I'm happy to answer questions. I bring this up, because it is part of my journey. And it's important to talk about these things, because I don't know, if it's the same in Australia and Ireland. We don't really talk about these things. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, you know, as women as creatives as moderators, you know, these are all part of our journeys. This, you know, you don't you don't talk about, you know, it's kind of, certainly in Ireland, you know, we're like, don't tell anybody, you're pregnant for the first 12 weeks in case something happens. And then you're like, well, if something happens, how are you supposed to bring it up with a woman? Well, I was pregnant, and now I'm not, you know, it's very difficult. It's very difficult, you know, when trying to find a way of dealing with that, you know, especially when you're dealing with didn't know your own, you know, like, you can tell, suppose your friends and obviously your partner and that kind of thing, but it is difficult and you're like trying to find reasons, you know, working through the motions, and I suppose that's very my kind of art and so I've kind of committed as well, you know, it's just helping me discover To me, you don't like kind of just end. But, um, but give yourself something of your own as well, you know, that wasn't, you know, so I currently don't sell my art. So it's like, it's just something for me to enjoy and something to do and that kind of thing. And then. So yeah, so I actually did a core stem with lower heart. So she's an Australian artist over in Adelaide. Yeah. And so So yeah, so I did one of her courses, and you know, and it was just so nice and gentle. And, you know, just had a little community was really nice. You know, it was just like, oh, and it kind of started to open up my eyes, in terms of what my art was doing and what my art could be. So I was like, okay, so we started on that path. And then I had a turd miscarriage. Oh, gosh, in April in April of 2021. All these years just kind of rolling together. Yeah. And, and that was, that was a chemical pregnancy. And that went on for about three months, dealing with the kind of physical repercussions of that. And I was just like, footsy, like, you know, so but, you know, I started doing 100 Edge challenge. So I was like, Okay, I have something to focus on. You know, I was kind of doing away doing the art way. And then it's only been kind of, I suppose, in the last year, then that I've kind of made the actual true connection between motherhood and my art. And suppose this what all the rigmarole stories kind of leading up to? It started 2022 as like, okay, no, I'm just giving myself permission. Okay, we are, you know, we decided, okay, we're not going to try for more kids are done, we're going to, you know, we have one, we're very blessed, very happy. And, you know, I put decided, okay, look, physically, emotionally, spiritually, it's okay to see we're done. And again, I again, I think that's another message that I want to kind of portray in my act and share out in general, because, you know, we're always like, Oh, no, you know, your mother, you should suffer or your whatever, and you should push past your own emotions and your own needs and wants, because, you know, obviously, you know, like, I know, you talk about mom guilt, obviously, wrongly consented to, you're like, Oh, my God, you know, it's going to be an only child. What does that mean? You know, should I just, you know, push myself aside and blah, blah, blah. But I think we have to say, okay, you know, fight sometimes it's okay to say enough. Yes, say, you know, what we're doing. And I suppose giving myself permission to, you know, really listen to myself and my needs, yeah, suddenly opened up things in my art that I had absolutely no awareness of no concept of No, even now, I'm still trying to figure out what it all means. I started back writing, and I started a blog. And then I started writing poems. I don't write poems. But I started writing poems, I started writing prose about motherhood, about, you know, the joy of finding out about you're pregnant. And, you know, the excitement of, you know, you know, giving birth and saying hello to your new child about things like being nap trapped, you know, you're stuck on your baby, and you just absolutely can't move, you know? So I started writing about all this stuff. And I don't know where it came from. Would it just, it was like, everything that I've been kind of doing belong had kind of mashed together, and just suddenly was like, oh, here because I gave myself permission to, you know, listen to myself more just on the argument. And I started, you know, creating different artwork and pieces, based on the poems and prose. Yeah, so I just, yeah, so it's just been, it's just kind of been crazy, as well as try to understand that over the last kind of couple of months, it's only been maybe within the last year. I've really kind of been able to gather the pieces and kind of put them all together and it's been really fun and exciting and it's also helped Me, you know, understand other areas of my life and kind of get centered in other areas of my life. And also, I suppose, you know, like the value of art and creativity in that sense, you know, it can't be underestimated. And I think that's what I really, really fell with that is just kind of like, you know, I feel understood, I feel heard and seen. And it's so funny, like, when I share, you know, it's really hard, it's easier to share the artwork than it is to share the kind of pools and pools and liquidity, but I find that when I share board together, that people are like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've, like felt like that, or, you know, I know where you're coming from, or definitely, you know, so it's that kind of sharing of experiences and decorating that, sometimes, we are always happy to talk about the happy stuff, you know, finding out you're pregnant, it's like, you know, sharing the new baby that can take you on, but the harder stuff is not really shared. And it's really sad. And just, you know, it's just part of the human experience. It is what it is. And, you know, so I kind of tried to share a little bit of everything. Well, I love that look. Honestly, I think that's so it's so important to, for us to be able to talk about the stuff that doesn't go so well, like, for so long. And like previous generations, it's like, oh, no, you know, don't talk about that. We don't talk about that everything's got to be seen to be, you know, just fine. Everyone's got to be, you know, they try this image that we're all coping and everything's great. And it's like, no, enough is enough. Like, I think that's half the reason people have so much trouble with, like mental illness or issues with their, with their health is that they, they feel stifled that they can't talk about things. And it's so important. And thank you so much for sharing so openly. Something I really believe in is that any, like, we could share one thing, and we have no concept of how many people that could make a difference for. So I think you can like never underestimate the power of, of sharing your story. And yeah, thank you for I really appreciate your honesty, like you are starting to get really emotional, when you're talking about how everything came together, when you just said, Enough is enough. It's time literally to listen to yourself. And then it all just came together. And it's like this, this whole thing has opened up, I don't even know how to describe it. But like a thing has opened up. And it's all this amazingness is happening. I don't know how to describe it. And this is one of the moments I'm probably headed out. But you know what I mean? Like, nobody would know, I do know what you mean, and it is important. But you know, sometimes I feel a bit weird sharing it and being open about it. Because, like, for so long, I didn't talk about it. So I didn't. So the first miscarriage happened in August 2020. And I didn't tell anybody about anything that was going on, you know, bear my immediate family, you know, my husband's immediate family. And like one or two friends. I eventually shared a post on my personal Instagram in October 2021. And like this was after we'd met, I met a consultant. So we've got miscarriage clinic and med consultant, you know, to kind of see if we can kind of figure out what was going on. And it was after that ended, I just shared and you know, like, one of my friends was like, we're like, you know, over the course of a year, like you were, you know, you were pregnant for six months, which you were, you know, physical miscarriage, you know, for about three, four months of it. And did you know, and you didn't share anything? And I was like, Yeah, you know, so many women do that. And the minute I shared the post, the amount of women that I was friends with, you know, either on Instagram or Facebook, private message me she's like, Oh, Jen, yeah, you know, I had the same experience, or, you know, I just after having one, or, you know, that kind of thing did happen a couple of years ago when they hadn't shared anything, really. And it's really sad because it is currently you know, it's one in four. We you know, and it is difficult, it is difficult to talk about, and some people can't talk about it, and that's fine. But if you can talk about it. I think sharing your experience and saying that you know what, look, it's shit. But you you will be okay. You know, it kind of helps people who can talk about it maybe so. Yeah, now Good Feet on Reddit look, honestly, I'm I don't want to sound condescending. But what you're doing is fantastic. Really? Good. No, I'm really yeah. Sorry. Like, nice feel like you're awesome. I love it. Yeah, but, but like, in general. It's just and it was, you know, I mean, it was giving that myself that permission to be like, okay, They will look. You know, it is it is what it is like, we can keep going. But, you know, we have happy situation, you know, we have a great kid. I mean, he's absolutely amazing. It's just turned four. Yeah. And he's better look for, you know, and we're like, look, sometimes, you know, it's important more, you know, it's just as important to have happy healthy parents for kids. Yes. You know, that kind of thing. And it's like, and it's very easy to feel like you need to martyr yourself. You know, yeah. And maybe marriage was too strong word, you know, post, you know, it's like, it's important in the Ford picture, and it's all key to take into a picture. You know, I think I think we need you know, so I think it was it was giving myself that permission and didn't suddenly, because I'd been kind of doing the art all along. It just suddenly, like, you know, it just exploded, and it's just, it's just so nice. And it's just, like, it's an outlet for me, it's, you know? Yeah, look, it's just it is, it's a beautiful outlet. You know, you can connect with amazing people like you, like, you know, all people, women, amazing women that you've had on the podcast, you know, I mean, listening to their stories, you know, it's, it's really inspiring, you know, and you know, that you're not alone. And in order to have this thing that you could share with the world, and it's, it's fun, it's fun. After a long day, it's fun to be able to pick pick up paint brush, you know, I work primarily in, like acrylics at the moment, I'm doing most of my stuff on canvas. And it's fun, it's fun, just to see where things go. And you can just, you know, I do like, it's funny, because every, you know, like, so I started off with the kind of poem and prose, and then it just kind of turns into something, you know, I have no idea what is going on, you know, I kind of started to see pictures and stuff in my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, and it kind of, kind of take it in certain directions. And from there, you know, says, interesting, it's, you know, when it's yeah, it's, it's colorful, and it's you look, it's, it's important to use the right side of our brain and to kind of user behind us and, you know, our, you know, our voices or whatever, whatever, it's up to you. You're, you know, this, it's bringing forward and just go with it, you know, Oh, absolutely. I think it's it, like any sort of creativity, I think is just vital for human beings to have something, you know, like you said that, that other side of your brain, and, you know, I like, like you say, like, it is fun, it's a, it's a switch off. Like, it allows us to process things like you've talked about, but the act of, you know, we think I work in childcare, and or not anymore. Sorry, I work in kindy. I worked in childcare for nine years. So I mean, early childhood education, and like, the kids love to paint. And it's like, when, why do we stop this stuff? You know, I know, most, like most adults don't paint unless they, you know, artists, they'll call themselves out. So they're like, Yeah, we don't draw, you know, most of us stop running around and being silly or whatever, it's like, you get to this point, you're an adult, now you have to grow up and act or serious. Like, you're fine. And we have. Yeah, like, I think if I working with kids is so good from for me and my mental health, because it is so fun, and it's so enjoyable, and you get your true authentic self, you know, you can't hide behind, like the kids will see right through you, if you've got some sort of a laugh, and you get to joke around and be silly and engage. It's just so it is so much fun. Like, it's an it's important for adults to play. Yeah. And to kind of, you know, like, you know, for whatever format that comes out, and, and, you know, what I think it's, I think nowadays is more kind of acceptable, you know, like, you know, people do art, you know, if the computer games, if it's music, if it's seeing if it's, you know, reading and that kind of thing, it's, you know, I think it's starting to become more acceptable to have a range of, you know, hobbies or that kind of thing, you all so you have work and so if you're not, but it's important, it's important to our sense, our sanity. Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. To be able to switch off to have something for yourself to have something that you can you know, kind of just relax into and you know, you can enjoy. Yeah, yeah, and like, I guess people, you know, have really stressful jobs or as, as moms it can get quite overwhelming sometimes and That level of stress gets to have something that's not stressful. And that is just really enjoyable and fun is, yeah, it's so important, so important for us. Like, for me, it's just having to have it if I, if I can switch off, you know, my, like, every other modern day, you know, your brain is going 100 miles an hour, you're taking this and that and, you know, you're trying to organize, and you're trying to be 10 steps ahead of yourself. And you're also trying to remember the stuff that you were supposed to do, when did you do all this stuff? And so you're just like, Okay, no, you know, it's just have some time to switch off, have some time for yourself, and be able to give yourself permission to enjoy it and just be like, oh, you know, what? Happier parents, you know, doing whatever little thing did you like to do for you just doesn't have to contribute in any way to anything. Auditing yourself is also important. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Your son, you said he's four. Does he like to come in? And do painting with you as well? Yeah, yeah. So what we do is, we alternate bedtime routines, because my son has like a to our bedtime routine, where he's like, you know, you have to play and read and do this, and then you eventually get him to do his teeth, you know, put on his pajamas and that kind of thing. So we moved him into his big room last year, so I took over a little box room for my art space. Yeah. You know, so like, he came in, he's a box of stuff now, you know, of his own teams, and he'd come in, and we'll do a bit of art, you know, or we do some at the weekend, you know, he loves, you know, he just loves to crack, he loves, you know, kind of painting and that kind of stuff, you know, so it's, and it's great fun, and it's nice, quality time that I can spend with them. You know, sometimes, sometimes we just take over the whole kitchen table, you know, the pages they refer, and we're mixing up paint, and, you know, he's learning about the primary colors, and he's talking about this, that, you know, oftentimes, it's important for our kids to, you know, because they're learning, they're learning to create, they're, you know, they're learning stuff, you know, certain language documents associated with, you know, art and creativity, and they're tapping into that, and they're, like, they're naturally in tune with, you know, they enjoy certain things, you know, that kind of thing. And it's just their imagination, they're playing events, you know, it's, and it's a nice way for us as, as adults to connect with them. Via that, you know, so yeah, like, he'll come in even, you know, he'll come in and do a bit or, you know, if I'm just starting on the canvas, you know, I get him to help me, you know, get all lit up, and, you know, put some colors. And, you know, and he's like, when you're Kansas Mama's like, Yeah, but you're alone? No, you know, so you have to set the rooms, you know, if I'm working on the canvas, you know, there's some canvases you can touch with some of them something that you've kind of nearly finished, and you're like, Oh, no. No, that wouldn't be good for anyone. But that's true that, you know, setting boundaries, that's an important thing to do with kids. You know, I feel like, sometimes parents are scared to say no to their children, or to say no, actually, this is my you can't do this. It's so important for kids to learn that and for them, for them to then know that it's okay for them to have things that other people don't do, or you know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, but that's it, but input and they understand, if you explain to them understand they understand more than we give them credit for? Absolutely, yes. You know, like, if you, if you say to them, Look, no, you know, notice this one is mom's but this one is yours. And you you know, you can do what you want to do so, and I've given him like, there's a couple of my kind of old small canvases that I've given him. So he's delighted with that, and he can paint over them, and he could do this and that, you know, so he has his box itself. And, you know, like, sometimes I let him use some of my paints and He's pure, happy, you know. And it's kind of, you know, it encourages that bond between you and you can also Like you say, it's, you know, you can create your boundaries within this and, you know, and it's good for both of you, you know, I can now having my little fella come in and paint with me, was so good for me to learn to like, just relax a bit and not be so stressed about certain things being perfect. Or, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, oh, no, don't touch that one. Don't and it was like, actually, what does it mean? If he uses that pain, like it was sort of getting things into perspective for me, so it's definitely helped him that way to not stress so and then, once you learned, like you say about different things like, you can paint on this, but don't paint on that. Or if you're going to use these paints, make sure you've got something under it, or whatever it is, once you have that set up, it's like, you can sort of relax a bit and go, Okay, that's cool. He knows not to put that one on the carpet or something, you know? Is that initial setting up? Yes. I can now can relax. Yeah, yeah. But but but that's it. And you know, like, and we can learn from kidssoup when it comes to art, you know, I mean, like, like, you see, you know, they might pull out a painted, you're like, oh, no, that's a good paint. No, I can't use that, you know, might have satin, you might have said practically on us for last three years. It's like, don't use paint, yes to paint. Like, buy more if you you know, use it or, you know, yeah. You know, and just and just go for it and just kind of let yourself loose and let your you know, let yourself imagine and, you know, go with this, you know, that's it. Yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's is definitely lesson we've learned from our kids and just go for it. And just enjoy and just, you know, it's the only boundaries in your art are created by you. Yeah, you know, when you think about it, we are where it wants to set the boundaries, you know, and the limitations. So, you know, we don't have to stay in sight lines if we don't want to, Hmm, let's see, isn't it? Yeah, that's one of the things that took me a long time to get over. But even just making like the choices that I make, when I'm painting, if I can think more like my son, when he paints and not overthink everything so much, like, that's been a good lesson for me to just, yeah, I don't know, I think you can be in your head so much questioning yourself. And like the self doubt and the imposter syndrome, all this stuff, that's all in your mind. And it's like, if you just if you switch off and be like a kid would be, they don't think about all that stuff. They don't think Oh, is someone going to like this, or if I'd done this bit rash, or, you know, we could learn so much from them? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. That's what I found to put, you know, when I started kind of going back painting, what I found was just, I was like, Oh my God, if I don't make this, you know, kind of really realistic looking, or really intricate, looking, you know, are really perfect looking, you know, people aren't gonna like it. And I was trying to force myself into skill level for I was definitely not at, you know, that kind of thing. It didn't it was like, it got really frustrating. So, why can't I do this? Yes, yeah. You know, when I, when I decided to let it go, like I am, you know, I don't paint realistically, if, you know, if you love photo, realistically, you know, if you look at my painting, you know, you know, it's, you know, it's a painting, you're not going to think that you're looking at a photograph, you know, you're not only Samaritan's Purse, like Amazingly, the detail and, you know, the texture and everything they achieve, you know, so once they kind of accepted it, no look, just go and play. And I found this things like the hashtag challenges. And kinda you know, it really, like, it opened up, you know, my eyes kind of flat you could do and just kind of let go of this perfectionism and try to just start to listen, just listen to what's in me, because, you know, we all connect with other people, you know, different things about everybody's work, we'll connect with other people. So you know, my arch with, you know, a Pete some people and other people will be like, that isn't dirt. What are you talking about? You know, that kind of thing, you know? So, so yeah, but, you know, it's all open to interpretation. And, you know, nobody's necessarily right or wrong, but it's, you know, it's, as long as it's making you happy, you know, and like, obviously, you know, I mean, I don't currently send my work. So it's funny, when I got a message from you on Instagram, I was like, imposter syndrome. No, I can't talk about Oh, my God. I was just like, as like, oh, no, she might take the day. She said, My work is so my, this just, you know, like, something that I'm not and I was just like, Well, no, look, you know, I call myself narratives. So I create our own, you know, you know, regular basis, you know, I mean, I Yes, the ultimate team is I would love to start selling my work. Maybe I went this year, maybe I get over myself and for that impostor syndrome to decide and be like, no, okay, you know, I kind of ready but, you know, I've viewed it like, I'm in art school. I'm sad. Tod artists, I'm currently in our school of life. And, you know, and I'm just enjoying it a lot. You know, I think when you give yourself space and to explore and that kind of thing, you know, you do find your kind of truer, authentic voice. And kind of, I feel like I've kind of started to tap into that, but it's only because I've given myself space. And obviously, it's easy for me to say, because, you know, I mean, I worked full time in a non articulated, you know, area. So, you know, I don't have to worry about that. So it's like, I can play, I can give myself space, and that kind of thing, energy isn't so important. And, you know, it doesn't matter whether whether it's your full time job, or a part time job, or, you know, your hobby, can give your space set space to be creative to, you know, do what you want to do. And it's all valid. Yeah, that's it, that's so true. We sort of mentioned the monkey earlier in regards to having one child, how do you feel about it? When it comes to art? Do you feel any of that? Sort of those emotions? And that time? No, no, I think because, okay, because I work full time anyway. Like, demand guilt is, you know, kept from my full time job, you know, because, you know, it's like, you know, you know, so, you know, like, there are like, cases, you know, where you're just like, you feel so bad, you know, leaving, like I kind of went through a phase last year. Where he because I started work at 10, seven, and morning. So you know, so I start really early, and I finished in at, you know, have three, so I have to be awkward, I kind of have five quarter to six American, he started, he was having a face where he get up with me and didn't want to leave, he bought his eyes out. And my poor husband didn't know, I'll be dealing with this. And, you know, I feel so guilty, you know, going out to work and him crying, and you're leaving for me hard to deal with this. And you're just like, Oh my God. You know, like, look, it was a face you got over it, it's fine. You know, you know, that kind of thing. But they're like, look, you can see Mom relatable, so much. So much different things. And it's so hard, you know, and I suppose you know, it might, you know, it'll show up differently for me to new and, you know, that kind of thing. But there's always I feel like there's always something to feel guilty about you like, Oh, God, am I doing enough? I mean, you know, this mother is doing this, or, you know, you're you're looking at social media, like, Oh, my God, you're doing like, you know, these fantastic, you know, things and they're going out every weekend and look at, look at how they're living life. And we're like, you know, I'm sitting on the floor playing Duplo instead of, you know, taking out some fancy, whatever, you know, adventure park or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. What is it but it doesn't matter, as long as you're happy lungs, your family or, you know, happy you know, you have to you have to let go of that. And it's really, really hard sometimes, you know, because you're just like, Oh, God, you know, I should be doing more. But no, I think once you let go of kind of that, and do your best as all you can do. And you're always going to feel guilty about sorting, because there's always something that you could probably be doing a bit better. Yeah. You know, you're only human, you can only do so often. It's like, it's I think manga is just it just goes with the territory, you know? Yes. I don't know if you ever get over it at all. Maybe Maybe you do eventually, hopefully. Get that's the thing like is if you're not doing one thing, you think I should be doing that. And then if you're doing that thing, you think I should be doing that. And it's just this constant thing that plays out in your mind. Yeah. And I get I get points where I'm like, No, don't think that. Like, don't don't worry about that, you know, but then you find like, 10 minutes later, something else will happen. And you'll be like, Oh, it's just so yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. But that's it. And it's hard and it doesn't matter. It's just, it's just constant. So you just you do you have to let it go with you came and I wrote this poem. Just about just literally, literally, it was about debt. I actually probably should have brought it down. So I was like, the last line was like, Don't give me your shoots because they're not going to carry and it's true. And it's like, you know, what's, you know? Like, what's valid for you and your family? Your kids? You know, isn't that sincerity was going to be valid for mine and this kind of entity is hard because you're you are seeing people do you know XY and Z? And you're like, oh, maybe I should maybe I should do that. Or, you know, society you feel like society's expecting certain things from you. There's maybe you're not. Maybe you know, it's not suitable for your family and you just do what's right for you what's right for your family and trust yourself this, you're doing the best you can. That's it, isn't it? Having that confidence in yourself to say actually, no, I don't need to be going and doing x y Zed that such and such. Oh, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like at the moment here at home. Much to my disgust my loungeroom my good Landrieu is being taken over by a big game of monopoly that seems to be never ending. Like monopoly and we just got home this morning. We played my son plays tennis my little little work. And they had a social day for like parents or family or whoever to play. And they put us in all in teams, this mixed doubles teams. I haven't played tennis I think properly for like, I don't know. Honestly, 15 years like a long time, but it was great fun. I really enjoyed it. And we had a great heat and everything and then I got home. All I do is sit on the couch and have wrist. Yes, this monopoly game just looking at me like ah, should be playing this game. I wanted gone out of my of my lounge. I want to finish this guy. And then degree my little fella comes, Hi, Joe. I'm playing Monopoly. I'm like, if I can lay down on the floor, I'll play. But you know what I mean? Like there's always something out and I and it's like, sometimes you just gotta put your blinkers on and go No, I actually, this is where my focus is. This is what I want to be thinking of now and the rest can just disappear. That's it, but let's put guaranteed, right? It's the things we're like, oh, God, we shouldn't be doing that. So your game of monopoly is something that your kids are going to remember to be bringing in open if you remember when we played that monopoly game that lasted for like 10 weeks, and we just take every single day. And you know, and it was probably you know, it's best for you know, so it's just yeah, it's just you know, for kids just wanted to keep just want you to connect with them. Kids want you to play with them, you know, again on the floor, you know, do you know connect with them? Forever. We do like to be connected with you know, like mean, Connor, you know, we pay so much to glow and he's big into Ghostbusters. Now we're not sure if we're to Ghostbusters thing came from but like he's like, you know, like, literally like Ghostbusters, and it's old school Ghostbusters from like, our childhood, you know, the 90s Like, you know that Ghostbusters? Yeah. And that's all he does all he wants to do. He just wants you just just sit down play with him. And, you know, it's just, you know, and those are the things that they remember. They don't necessarily, you know, to be to be crazy things. It's like the small connections that you can make the on day, you know, whether it's true play or creativity or music or, you know, that kind of thing, though, those are the things that they remember. And you remember and you know, so it's kind of Yeah, but it's hard because you're trying to you know, you're like oh my god the kitchen the state and obtained loads of laundry. And that's exactly, you know, you're trying to you're trying to find the balance someplace between all of us. And sometimes it works sometimes, you know, so some weeks, some weeks I know I fight even though I'm like, I'm totally on top of this, you know, papers and started you know, we're playing and then the next week is just an absolute shit show. And you're like, what? Yeah, no balance. I find that it does go it goes in flows. Like it's never like, I don't know if sometimes, like a clean up. And I think I'm gonna keep this really clean. Like what? Lately I've been doing my cupboard. Make sure I put everything back away after I finished wearing it or put the line the shoes back up. So like, how long is this going to last for your record? It's not going too bad. But yeah, nothing are fine with me anyway, it's always it ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You do. You just have to go with it. And you just have to just try to give yourself a bit of grace and say, Okay, well, look, it is what it is. Let's just, you know, make the best. That's it. Isn't it being kind to ourselves? I think that's yeah, that's sort of the underlying thing that I think always get back to in these conversations is just, we've just got to be kinder to ourselves, you know, give us a carousel some slack and yeah, not be so quick. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cuz there's, like, there's always this weight of expectation of, you know, you could have how you can do doing things differently. But I suppose like that you just have to try and connect with yourself and You know, with your partner and with your kids and pots, rice, what's right for you? You know, and just go from there. It's really all you can do is, yeah, that's it easy so with your artwork at the moment, what sort of what? Where do you gather your inspiration from at the moment? Is it still working through the emotions of of losing the babies? Or is it more day to day? Things that you feel? It's, it's mostly, it's mostly day to day, like, you know, I mean, I like as I say, like, I think it's important to address all the emotions. So, you know, motherhood isn't, you know, just joy, it is grief, there is loss, whether whether you've lost pregnancies or lost, or, you know, I mean, there's a sense of, you know, like, you lose yourself a little bit, you know, because you gain a new you, you know, and push, like, like I was saying, you know, so like I did want about being that tract, and, you know, to painting does emerge from it is this big, massive waterfall basin, because we were in Iceland last year, so space and one of the waterfalls there, it's this big, massive waterfall, and two big rocks, and loads of flowers, and this really colorful in this light, you know, so you're not trapped. So you're stuck, you know, between a rock and a hard place, and just like the end of the end of the team, you know, the whole poem is like, you know, do I need to pee, you know, but I'm not trapped. So I can't, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, and you're trying to kind of go through all the emotions, you know, so you're, like, oh, there's somebody at the door, but I'm not trapped, I can't get up to or, you know, watch for the TV, because, you know, I'm not trapped. I can't, you know, I should really shower, eat or do laundry, but I'm not trapped. And in the end of it is like, what's that? What's my bladder, you know, like, I do need to pee. So that's what kind of waterfall came from, it's like, oh, waterfall, you know, what you're, you know, kind of just making, you know, it's just, it's about fun that I did like another one. Like, my favorite moment, you know, so it's about your favorite moment with your kids, you know, so it's, you know, I taking this photo of Connor who's walking off the field. And so you've just been blue sky, and you know, the field. And so, instead of the sky, I did all these, like, little postcards of moments did you have with your kids. So you know, so, you know, like, one was, you know, in playing in a puddle, or, you know, Bubbles, or you know, what kind of reading or, you know, like, all of these little, you know, to talk to small moments, we remember, okay, they might necessarily remember, but we remember, you know, leading to them not watching their favorite TV show. And, you know, how all of those are kind of, you know, your favorite moments that you kind of gather up along the years, you know, once saw another, you know, painting was inspired by that, and I did this big sunflower, I don't know, if I'll ever be able to sell it. I think he's probably talking a bit too much. You know, so it's about love first, sort of, like finding out, you know, when you find out, you're pregnant, and you're like, Oh, my God, it's a you know, it's an amazing feeling. And, you know, you can kind of go through it, and then you're just, you know, you're waiting, you know, you've all these emotions and everything, you know, so it's just just be happy. So clarity, and all that have layers, you know, I've worked, I've worked with a lot of layers and, you know, bright colors, and, you know, so, yeah, it's like, it's, there's so many emotions, you know, but I do feel this, you know, it's important to talk about my journey, because, you know, that is very came from, you know, there is, there is, you know, loss and grief and stuff associated with, you know, being a parent being a martyr. But there's so many happy moments, there's so many nice moments, and it's just, you know, I'm working on what never diminished and just, it's all flowers, it's like, you know, it's based on I can't wait to meet you. So, you know, all these, like, new moments that you have with your kids. So, you know, obviously, the first moment of scene opened or a newborn and, you know, just arrived, you know, but, you know, each step each, you know, step into child's life is kind of a new step for you in your relationship with your kids, you know, and it's, it's amazing so you can celebrate the kid, you know, as a war as the higher you know, each step that they kind of come along and they're kind of like blossoming entities, you know, Hmm, amazing, amazing flora, you know, so So yeah, so I tried to, I tried to cover, you know, a range of softens, you know, like, it's funny because, you know, the writing would contribute or strange times like I mean, I might because like, remember once I was walking so we dropped kind of off to crash so, you know, I was walking on to Greyhound so I was walking, you know, when a trike with my two greyhounds, and you know, these lines were coming to me, so I had to stop after decided or put into the footpath after, you know, and I was on my phone type annoyed. Because if I don't write it down, I'm not going to remember it. I'll be kicking myself because I believe that was perfect. Why did you write it down? Yes, yeah, I'm doing that. And it's just and you just, you know, and it's, you know, so you have to just kind of go with it. And, you know, write your dough, and, you know, the note app, you know, I've got, you know, all these lines and an otter, you know, and, and sometimes, like things will just come like just randomly, you know, and it's all the like, little moments, you know, it's kind of I was driving home one evening with Connor, and it was hard to keep them a week, because it was Derrick girls, it was kind of around five o'clock, or halfway or something. And, you know, I was trying to get Louie. He's a big fan of boys. Yeah, we love Louie, this house is great. So trying to get that on, you know, and that, you know, that kind of inspired another poem. You know, it's just like, just, you know, there's so many things, you know, that you kind of go just day to day that you can kind of think about and remember, and I like to kind of make the connections of Dash, you know, so it's not like, so it's not just the big moments is the small moments, you know, kind of, yeah, that you kind of remember and you take on board, you know, so it's kind of it's, it's interesting, just to see how things translate first of all into words and did bring it out into, you know, a painting and so, so yeah, so it's kind of it's been a journey for me didn't try to relay that, you know, how to share data with other people. So it's like, in my head, I'm like, Oh, this makes perfect sense. You know? And then you're trying to explain to somebody else, you're like, oh, okay, yeah. That's something cool. Yeah. So just, it's, it's just, you know, a journey of exploration. And I think, again, it's going back to that giving myself permission to explore, to learn, to identify, you know, kind of how I can kind of best communicate all of this stuff out of my hand, you know, and onto, you know, paper or canvas, you know, whatever. And it's so it's yeah, it's interesting, it's fun, and it's, you know, and, and as I say, you know, like, when I start sharing is, start sharing the meaning behind the paintings. And people are like, Oh, okay, yeah, you know, they kind of get it more so, like, what I'd love to do is have an exhibition, you know, prehab, the paintings, and you have the pros kind of behind it. So people can kind of make that connection, and you're like, Okay, you know, so they can kind of see where everything comes from. And, you know, that kind of thing. Because, you know, when you start sharing that the amount of people who'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, that's, that makes sense. Or I felt that or, you know, so yeah. Like, as, as artists as creatives, you know, we can put into, you know, words or, you know, visual effects, what other people can't necessarily, you know, so you can kind of make that connection, you know, with, you know, with the motions with that kind of thing. And, you know, that's how you can build your connection, build your community, and then go from there. And that's, you know, that's where I'm aiming for, you know, to share these experiences with older people. Because, you know, a guarantee, like, every single model has had this kind of story. We're trying to keep their kid awake in the car. Oh, yeah. If you see, though, you're not going to sleep until midnight tonight. Exactly. So you do whatever you can to, you know, try to keep the kid awake or keep the kid entertained. And definitely, you know, so it's like, we have all these shared experiences that, you know, they might be slightly different to each other, but, you know, they're, you know, the same you know, so you know, oh, sorry. No, no, no, I was just gonna say, I've got a funny story when it comes to trying to keep a child awake. My my first son, who's now 15. I had to try and keep him awake while I was, you know, there's sort of seats you get put on the back of your bicycle. And yeah. And so we're coming back from a friend's house and I could feel his head pushing into my bag. Like, trying to steer like really safe, trying to lift your colleagues, LAX, I'm particularly under the chin and the kid who just fell asleep on the back of the bike. And I swear, they sleep for 10 minutes. And that adds like four or five hours on to how it's like this recharge nap. Oh my gosh, yeah, amount of times we've done on the trip, just to get, you know, somewhere, boom, off, he goes, like, oh, no, no, he's gonna be up all night. Yeah, that's it, you're like, can you teach me how to do that, because that would be very useful. 10 minute nap and just have to be rising, it will ask you. Want to ask that when you're talking about you, being able to express your emotions and your ideas through prose and through physically painting, do you find one is easier or harder than the other or that you find comes more naturally? Because I'm asking this because I once had Katie Callahan on the podcast, and she's a singer songwriter, and she also heights and we had this conversation about how different or I can't remember what it was, but how she approaches each sort of medium in a different way. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on that. So yeah, it's, it's funny, I find with the writing, it just comes out in spurts. So it just like, literally, I can just No, I can't and poems and prose, okay. They're very rough. You know, I mean, I don't want reIated them, necessarily. Some of them, you know, I might kind of horn but I just, I just let them go. And they're just, you know, that's, that's what they are, you know, and some of some of them are nice, you know, nicer, you know, better put together than others. You know, what I just I just kind of, it just flows I find, or else sometimes I kind of get a couple of lines. You know, as a character ended up, I go back to the couple of weeks later and be like, Okay, no, this is what I need to say, here, you know. And, with the paintings, I like to have a couple of paintings going at the same time. So sometimes, it might be that I do, like, I like to work in there. So sometimes, I might do a couple of layers, and I might have no idea what's going to happen under the canvas. But then it's like something in my head, it's like, oh, no, you need to kind of try to do this, you know, and then other times, it's like, this is what this canvas is going to say, I know exactly what's gonna go on. And I can just, you know, kind of go into. And so it varies, it varies. You know, I don't have any set process. It's, you know, sometimes it comes to the sparks, sometimes, like, I find them like, really, really creative. And I suppose that's another thing that I'm trying to kind of figure out for myself as well. In terms of my process and my cycles, you know, they go find, sometimes enough very creative and I find, you know, to, you know, around kind of November and into December, no, no interest in creating at all, and, you know, and, and then after Christmas, like, oh my god, I have so many ideas, I've got to get everything down and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, you know, you know, so far I kind of before Christmas, I was doing a little bit of writing and that kind of stuff, you know, but then suddenly, like the art was like, Oh my God, I need to paint the need to paint and you know, so it's so yeah, so it's kind of it does come in cycles, it does, you know, and bought it and kind of present a little bit differently I find for myself, you know, I'm currently in a position where that's fine. You know, I'm sure did if I was a commercial artist, if I was trying to you know if this was my livelihood. Yep, you know, that kind of thing. So I do think I'm kind of luckier that way because I can just lettings. lettings, you know, calm and I'm enjoying that process at the moment. And you know, without the pressure. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So, so yeah, I do. I do. I do think if I was like you know if this was if this was my job and I needed to finish X number of paintings in the month, you know, that kind of thing to pay my rent. You know, it might be I suppose was, well, you know what, that pressure is good too, because you kind of it forces you to sit down, say, Okay, well, no, look, you know, what am I doing here? You know, I try to resolve and try to resolve stuff. But certainly at the minute, it's, it's very much intuitive, it's very kind of like, okay, and I do try to work with like a limited palette. I did, I got a book about color mixing, to Christmas before last, and I was like, oh my god, this is brilliant. Because this was like, a lot of like, you know, artists, when it first started off, you know, you want a tube of every color, you don't have to have a tumor, you have to have a tumor that, Oh, that's such a pretty color rubbish that, but I've kind of tried to pare it down note about like, maybe 10, you know, 10 colors, and I love blue. Like, there's so much blue, in my, you know, in my work Bush, I find like pink and green sofas actually come into a lot more, you know, kind of different variations, you know, now, so it's just, yeah, I find I find there's no set way. But at least if you leave yourself kind of open, you'd be surprised what comes through, you know, entity entities. Yeah, as I said, writing is definitely large refer in how it comes through soldiers, and I just let her just let her just let her come through, you know, and just like I'm writing blogs and stuff as well, at the minute, I'm doing 100 Day project at the moment. So I kind of tried to be kind of vigilant and writing blogs and that kind of thing, you know, kind of so I suppose all the dashes kind of helping things as well, and just kind of making things make more sense, you know, do you find do you do? Well, when you set yourself a task like that they you know, like, everyday, I'm going to do this, like it's do sort of stick to it pretty well. No? I, let's be honest. I, you know, if I set myself for, like, Oh, when I have to do blah, blah, blah, every single day, you know, I'm just like, Oh, really? No. But if I allow myself Okay, so look, this is the general schedule, this is my general idea. This is what I'm working towards. And if I can do a little bit every day, it didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I can, I can work towards it, and it works out, you know, but, you know, like, I wouldn't be like, my 100 Day project, it's about systems and sharing. So it's kind of, like, sharing on social media sharing, sharing, and podcasts. You know, and just kind of understanding, you know, about my connection, and you know, how to how to connect better with people, you know, that kind of thing and just trying to, you know, see what works better, you know, try to get regular racing, you know, and that kind of thing, you know, so it's, it's just, it's about building consistency, and connecting with the community and that kind of thing. So I find that there's a lot of value indoors. You know, some people are fantastic, and they paint every single day, you know, they might do like a mini painting every day. And it's just, it just wouldn't fit in my schedule. Like, I mean, there's some days where I just don't want to paint, there's some days where I just can't create, because it's been a long day, I've been up since whatever hour, you know, just work, you know, family life, you're doing dinner, you're doing this, you're doing that and you just want to sit down and watch Netflix, you know, you know, you have to you have to allow yourself that time as well and kind of try not to punish yourself for being human, you know, so like, like, from for me to undertake a project is very much, you know, trying to connect with the community trying to build consistency and work towards a greater goal. And by doing that, you know, it kind of works. It works better for me. Hmm, yeah, that's yeah, it's good. i If someone says to me, I have to do like a thing every day. I just shut down. I'm like, no, no, that's it. It feels so overwhelming, right from the start, you know, but yeah, but it does. Yeah, it does. Like I love to hashtag challenges. So there's a couple of hashtag challenges that I tried to kind of follow along with loosely every year. So in January, there's so the nerd paint podcast, they do 20 For 20 Day Challenge in January, you know, sort of painted or do something every day for 20 minutes, you can do that. Yeah, that's the TiVo. And there's a couple of artists that I follow that do hashtag challenges, especially at the start of the year. So Phoebe Gander, She's based in New Zealand. She does a 31 day challenge in January. And then Susan net of course, is in she's over in Ballarat actually puja. So yeah. It's really cool to see him extremely close to you. I'll say a few weeks ago, actually. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So yeah, yes, it's He does painting as a practice challenge in February. You know, so so like, there's various kind of hashtag challenges and stuff that you can follow this literally, like, there's a starting in the end, it's like, you know, one month, you know, you can, you can kind of achieve that, you know, and it's kind of I like to I like to follow along with those and, you know, it's, it's fun, I think it's good for you, because you kind of build, you build some consistency you build, you know, you can connect with people, you know, who are also doing it, that kind of thing. You know, so it's, it's, it's fun, but yeah, like that, you know, I mean, if I, you know, to take with the 100 day challenge, if I had to do something every day for 100 days. I feel like I was a failure. If I miss one day, you know, that can do it. Yeah. Yeah. So by giving myself Okay, 200 days, and I have, you know, kind of goals, kind of weekly goals that can change and try to hit and if I don't hate him, Okay, well, look, you know, do better next week. Yeah. Yeah. I always find it's nice to always to see what other people are doing as well, like I can, I can't get very inspired. There's so many screenshots I kept on my phone of people painting because they think, Oh, I love how they've done that. And I might not be like, I don't want to replicate their work. But there's an idea of how they used something to make a texture or they, you know, just some color combinations. Oh, wow. So I like I take a lot of inspiration from others. I don't end up necessarily always attempting it, but I like looking at it, you know? Yeah, but, but I think that's important to be able to sit back and relax and kind of take it in and think about stuff and look about look at things what you like what you don't like, do you do much painting? Yeah, I love I it's just a bit of fun. Just it's like my, just haven't done any for a while at the moment. And same thing, I've got to be right in the mood for or need to do it. But I just I just love messing around with it. Really? I enjoy. Yeah, enjoy. Yeah. Yeah, but it's fun. It's just I think it's, you know, what, it's just getting letting loose and, you know, trying out new things. And yeah, like that, you know, I think it's, it is important to sit down and look at, you know, consider your work, you know, that kind of thing and allow yourself time to sit with it and see, okay, well look, you know, whether it's writing, whether it's visual, you know, sitting down and taking it in and saying, okay, is this is this doing what I wanted to do? Or, you know, is there something else that it's, you know, trying to see, or that I need to see and darkening and also entities and we don't get enough time. You know, we're just very busy. We don't necessarily give ourselves enough time to kind of just sit back and say, you know, what, look, I just entered I do I like to do that sometimes, you know, even if I don't feel like creating, sometimes if you just go and sit with, you know, sit with yourself or look through your sketchbooks or through, you know, whatever, you know, or just play, you know, if you play an instrument, just, you know, clean, easy sound Did you like to play you know, and just, you know, just sit with that and enjoy it? And you know, there's so much value in that. And we don't we don't put enough emphasis on it. Yeah, I think yeah, this is this whole idea that something's got to have an outcome, like there has to be a result to something it can't just be for the sake of whatever, it has to have this outcome, this capitalist ideal that our society seen that, you know, and that's, that's why I like to talk about the value of art, you know, like, just because, like you talked about not selling it. That's, that's insignificant, I think, next to either the gain that you receive from your art and then others do by you sharing it, you know, it doesn't have to have this this end outcome. Would that look, that's a debt. Exactly, yes. You know, what I mean, I'm a better person, I'm a better person, I'm a better mother a better partner. Because it creates because I have that space to do something that I want to do. And, you know, and I can give myself permission, I don't have to answer to anyone else. I do what I want to do, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, and like, I mean, look, if you can make money from your art or you know, creating courses, you know about your art and that kind of thing. Fantastic. That's amazing. That is amazing. But, you know, creating for creating sake for yourself is valuable, too, you know, and we have an You know, and it's good, it's good to just be able to sit back and just relax and just look, look at what you've done. And just, you know, even if it's big, messy, you know, muddy, you know, Ting under, you know, an A pit and some paper and you're just like, 40s, this, if you enjoy the process, if you're, if you've after having a long day, if you just need to just just do something, there's value in it, because it's helped your mood, it's relaxed, you it's, you know, you process whatever you need to process and now you can say, okay, okay, read, you know, and you go from there. And that's, that's hugely valuable. And we need to do that, and we need to do have more times and, you know, why not allow ourselves to enjoy things that we enjoy? You know, yeah, that's so true. I know that I, I have times when I just think I, you just get so overwhelmed, like you were saying before, like the stuff in your head, and then physical stuff you've got to do, and you just go. And it's like, you have to reset yourself, it's like you have to recalibrate and having that timeout, like he said, where you're in charge of it, no one's telling you what to do. It's like your theme. It's, I couldn't live without it. Like, honestly, I would not be a sane person. If I couldn't do. That's exactly it. And, and that's, and that's where that's where the value is in it. You know, I mean, you know, we're humans are born to create, you know, I mean, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, inverted commas. Good. You know, I mean, 14 pot is good anyway, like, you know, I mean, I said already, you know, when somebody will look at my art to be like, Well, no, that's, that's not art, you know, that kind of thing. It's like, well, actually, yeah, yeah, she is, you know, okay, you have your opinion that that's fine. No water. But, you know, everybody's interpretation is different. You know, I mean, somebody might look at a photorealistic painting be like, that's beautiful. That's art. Whereas it might look at an abstract piece of like, what is this? You know, so it's so it's like, everybody's interpretation is different. And, you know, that doesn't diminish, you know, yeah, the value value of essence, you know, yeah. I think there's art to creativity is, like, hugely important. And, you know, for people who don't do it, or haven't given themselves permission to do it, you need to, you need to for you, it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter what it is, you know, if it's reading books, if it's playing computer games, if it's, you know, writing in a journal, if it's doodling on, you know, paper, if it's writing songs, if it's playing music, if it's listening to music, it was dancing in your kitchen, you know, if it's creating art, like creativity, and knowing yourself to tap into, you know, you know, your creative side, you know, kind of relax it, do it, do it, you know what I mean to work, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be good, you don't have to share it with anyone, like, you can create art, and not share it with anyone. And it can be just for you, or you can write and it can be just for you. And it's still valid. You know, it doesn't have to be seen to be valid, it doesn't have to have a monetary value to be valid. And, you know, I mean, if you can, and want to create, you know, an income from your art, or your creativity, or your creative practice, whatever it is, that's fantastic, too. I mean, that that should be celebrated. But I think we just need to celebrate, giving ourselves permission to do what we want, you know, and just go create and just, you know, use their hands, user minds user, you know, creative voice, whatever it is inside you and just let it out. And just Yeah, and just go for it. Yeah, that's so well said. Good on you, Jennifer. Honestly, it's been lovely chatting with you today. Thank you so much for having me on SSH and open I got your message and Instagram. I was like, this woman has been hacked. She wants to talk to me. Why? Because what you've, what you've shared today has been so valuable, and I appreciate it so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or so subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Jen Lush South Australian singer/songwriter S1 Ep02 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Jen Lush is a singer, songwriter and passionate performer from Adelaide, South Australia, A mum of 3, we chat about the shock of becoming a mother in a way she never expected, how her children inspire her and manifest in her art, and how guilt can serve a purpose. **This episode contains discussions about birth trauma, infant illness, grief and postnatal depression** Jen - website Podcast - instagram / website Read The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood by Rachel Power Music used by permission from Jen Lush , Suvome and Cat Bird Dog When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Today, my guest is Jen Lush. She's a singer, songwriter and passionate performer from Adelaide, South Australia. Much later, it seemed Welcome to the show. Jen, thank you so much for coming on today. It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. It's really good to be on the couch having a Yak, I'm obviously quite familiar with you and your work, would you give us a bit of a rundown on who you are, what you do, what you've done in the past, for those who might not be familiar with you and your work? Okay, um, well, I've been practicing some form of art. I feel like probably for most of my life, but I started off in dance and theater. That was the degree that I did at university, and then kind of moved into music at random at the same time as I was at uni, was in my first band before that I'd been singing with my dad and his folk band, ended up touring with that and playing music all over the place for quite a few years. And sort of gradually phased out dance and theater and focus more on music and more in the more recent years. So I kind of do, I suppose, I went from doing electronic music to gradually drifting into more acoustic and folk related stuff that kind of changed sort of ties back into more of the music that I was probably raised listening to. And now I have a band that I'm about to release my second studio album with. But prior to that I've been in various other bands and Duo's and trios and various manifestations over the last 20 years or so. Awesome. I would love to ask you more about your trip hop trio that you were in. Can you first of all save a name? And because I don't want to say it because you get it wrong. And no. Well, it's called survival it was called survive home. A lot of people call it servo may or Salome and weren't really sure. So one of those reasons why you should never call a bear name is a word that actually doesn't exist in your life because people have no idea it's like some travel. You're in Japan and London with you group. Yeah, so we made two albums. We and a couple of singles and things outside of those albums. We we launched those albums in Adelaide, made them in Adelaide and launched them in Adelaide. And then we traveled to by way of Japan. I think we went to live in England at that time. And so we lived and played in England for a few years. And then yeah, and then we kind of gradually brought it to a halt but I think that must have gone on for about maybe 10 years. That was we were heavily inspired by listening a lot to say Portishead Massive Attack. Loads of electronica you know, lamb, you name it all those 90s selectronic Patriot pop stuff, and tricky. There were lots and and so that's kind of where that kind of sprung out of, I suppose. I really love the idea of having very minimal musical back grounds to like in terms of the like, it was often just a drum sample and like a little bass line really. And I love creating music just to those very simple elements. I feel like you know, just making up a song around those things that you're handed, it's pretty fun. Still do a little bit of that with some German dance music producers in Frankfurt, I think they are at the moment I did that when I was in England, and I'm still doing a little bit of it. Now, they still call me up and want me to want me to lay down some ideas. I don't actually perform the final cut of the vocals I get, you know, young, spunky, German people to do that. But I still like to change. So yeah, I like like crossing over with different genres, I think. I think it's kind of a cool thing to, you know, I don't really have a favorite genre, really. So whatever, whatever comes out at the time. So you were in that band with typing lunch, when you guys were obviously married. So how did you guys meet? Was it through music that you met? Initially? No, we met we're not we're pretty young. I was still in school when I met Tobin down at Yankalilla. So his, my parents were I was living at the time was in Yankalilla, and grew up there and went to school there. His parents live out at wiping a beach or on a farm out there. And they're farmers. And he went to school at Victor and then herb ray in town. And we crossed paths at the local drop in center, which was run by the United church youth group. And they would have Friday night and Saturday night activities for wayward young people with nothing to do in a place like Yankalilla and Normanville, where the only thing to do is go and jump off a jetty or sit under the jetty or walk along the jetty or catch them Tommy's off the jetty. Now, there wasn't a lot to do in Yankalilla for young people at that time. And so the church were pretty proactive about getting some activities going. So we'd, you know, I'd meet down there with my friends. And, you know, in between games of table tennis and having a crack on the drum kit, you'd make pancakes or go on an excursion to a local bowling place or something like that. And it was at that place that I met Tobin, who was helping to run it with taking over from his brother at the time, who was getting some training interstate and Tobin took over one time, and he just wandered in. And it was the only person I'd seen in a long time that I didn't know because in small towns like Yankalilla, NAMA Ville, everybody knows everybody. And I decided quite some time before that, that I wasn't going to go out with anyone from my local town. Not just because I was an arrogant I don't know. Aspirational young lady, but also, that I think everyone knows everyone. And I pretty much decided that, that they probably wouldn't like me, and I certainly didn't think I had any kind of future with anybody at my school. And so yeah, he walked in, and I thought, holy crap, who's this? I don't know you. That's an unusual thing in itself. And also, he was incredibly dashing, and kind of dressed like a bit of a punk with these ripped up jeans with the Union Jack sign up behind and these, you know, really high, high laced up docks and messy hair and stuff. And he was working as a farmer on his parents farm for a bit while he was trying to work out what to do. And so we started hanging out. And I think the first thing he said to me was, you want to come and see my skateboard. And you said, that's good. And I spent a lot of time sitting around in car parks watching him do skating while I sort of sat there with my book and had a read and hung out. Yeah. And then he was interested in arts things. And I've always always been interested in arts things. So we spend our weekends, taking photos of crazy stuff, setting up these weird scenarios and taking photos of him and stuff. He got into photography, and then filmmaking and finance so a lot of painting as well. Where I went down the performing arts road that I was already well and truly doing by that stage. Lots and lots of ballet and, and dance and theater and stuff. So I went down that road and he went down he is and we've we've pretty much got together when I was 17. So we've been together a long time. So awesome. That is so great. So you've like you've you've these Two Worlds came together over the skateboard. And then you sort of blossomed with sharing all this art together. Overnight, I thought I was going to be a farmer's wife, I really didn't expect that it was going to end up in this in this very much art driven world that we're both in. So it was lovely, a lovely thing in the end. So when did you sort of start to think, well, we're going to start a family? And did you sort of think then what's going to happen to your music and your art? Like, was that sort of a conscious sort of thing to think, well, how's this gonna fit in? See, yeah, um, we were in England at the time, and I got pregnant without actually realizing I was pregnant. So it wasn't really super planned it was, we had this long view plan that we'd be married for 10 years, and then get home and then start having babies. So it was around about bang on that when we when we did start having babies, but it wasn't because it was through any great planning. It was really just that I had, well, there's a long health kind of scenario. But I was diagnosed with polycystic ovaries some time before this, so maybe six years or five years before I was pregnant. And so I was told that I probably wouldn't find it easy to be pregnant. So I wasn't on any kind of contraception anyway, hadn't been getting periods or anything like that. And then I decided to because I didn't really want to go down the road of fertility treatment eventually, or anything, I thought I'll do some research and through my own, you know, layman's, slightly ignorant researching tactics, I found it, you could buy going on a diabetic diet, a diet that specifically important for people with diabetes is a similar chemistry thing that's going on with insulin hormones and stuff. And so I went on this, I took I put myself on this very strict kind of low GI diet thing. And, and adhere to that for two years. And then my period started all by themselves, and everything seemed to be clockwork. And it was by the second period, I got pregnant. So all by myself. So it was nice to, to try and remedy some of those things going on in my body without real medical intervention, just by trying to change what my habits were around food and stuff. So that was good. So long story short, I was pregnant and not realizing it. My first I thought I was just sick. I just thought I was had the flu, and was constantly throwing up and I thought, I've just got some kind of food poisoning first. And then I thought I had the flu. And then my boobs were getting kind of bigger. And I was like, this is weird. And I took a pregnancy test and, and it came out positive and I was at least 10 weeks pregnant by them. So by the time I had my first scan, I was 15 weeks pregnant. I'd already passed in the first trimester without even realizing. Okay, if you just breeze through it, no worries. Yeah. And so And during that time, I was heavily involved in a theater working in theater and music. I was doing some music stuff as a acoustic duo in England with another guy and also some more electronic music stuff as well. I don't think we're doing survive anymore by that stage. And I was doing a lot of theater work with local theater people in involved in shows and things like that. And I thought that in my in my wisdom that nothing much would change once I'd had a baby I thought I'll just have the baby and then he or she will will be backstage with me while I do this show that I was committed to doing and I'll just feed in between scenes or interval or before and after the show. And then I jumped back on I had this I really did have this as as a as an idea. And no one seems to tell me any any otherwise because no one else I knew was had had babies really I wasn't around a lot of people that had children at that time. I even had agents who were gearing up for me to be cast in roles that needed a mother with a brand new newborn baby so scenes in TV and stuff like that, but I was doing little bits of so I was ready with agents, you know, at my beck and call ready for whenever I was ready to show up and do some baby and mummy kind of things on TV. So it was with a great big shock to me to my system when that went completely Yeah, yeah. And all of my expectations for for myself and my art and my work were utterly changed. The minute he was born. Yep. Did you have him in your in the UK when he hadn't? Are you back in Australia? Yeah, so I was in the UK and he was born at St. Mary's Hospital as Orlando, who's now 16. So 16 years ago, I went into labor, but much like all the women in my, my family, my sister and my mom, turns out that we're not able to deliver babies vaginally, it needs to be a cesarean or nothing. There is no option there need to be less than five pounds in size. But if we're if we're going to do that has something to do with our anatomy. We're all the same. But unfortunately, they like you to go through the process of labor first, just so you can be sure that that's the case. And Orlando was stuck. And I was in pretty dire situation where I nearly didn't make it and neither did he. And there was an emergency and it was it was a mess. It was a complete disaster. To the point where he was diagnosed at six months with cerebral palsy, right hemiplegic cerebral palsy and and was not in an excellent way for quite a while the first year of his life. He was very ill a lot of the time. And we came home. By the time he was three months old. Back to Australia. So we've been here since. So that was a really different different way into motherhood. That's probably what I was hoping. What I expected. And certainly those agents that were calling me soon after he'd been born were given short shrift. And there was no longer going to be any swanning into any kind of TV studios with my new one. Yeah, we're gonna say, Yeah, you did. It wasn't just the change of life for you immediately in terms of your, your art and your work. But also the the challenges involved with Orlando with the, with the issues you were faced with him. So it was this double whammy that you got? Yeah, it was it was terrifying. Never before have I ever since have I been through anything that traumatic. And certainly for him, going through it himself. He was a baby experiencing trauma as well, because that was a very traumatic way for him to start with seizures. And with a range of medical things going on when he was first born. I don't think he was breathing when he was born, either. So there were all kinds of weird things going on in that hospital that night. I remember John Howard just been reelected and watching that on the screen. And I was in this ward with all of these other women who had just had babies and everyone had their babies. And I didn't know he was in intensive care. And I didn't know at that stage what was wrong. I thought that we're going to bring him back down to me in the night because it was very early days. So I'm watching John Howard get reelected. And he wasn't my first choice for for reelection. So I was thinking that's a bit crap. And then about I don't know, two in the morning, maybe a nurse came down and said, I'm really sorry, but we're not going to be able to bring your baby down. He's had a seizure and and he won't be joining you right now. And it was brutal. It was actually brutal the way that I was told that and I couldn't move because I'd had a cesarean and I was unable to actually get out of bed. Oh is when you've had as Aryan that's an emergency. You might have been through this. But it's, it's no joke, is it and you can't move your body is bruised and battered. And it's takes quite some time to heal. So I couldn't Yeah, and that was before the time of me having mobile phone or anything like that. So I couldn't contact over and I couldn't you know, I was just stuck in this room in my babies like three floors above and I just thought this is the pets. So it took about our content minutes for me to maneuver myself gradually to get some help in the morning and get a message to Tobin so it was just a really weird start to motherhood actually. Yeah, absolutely. So I can understand you came back to Australia, you would have had a lot more support here. Your family's here Yeah. Which obviously you needed around you at that time. Yeah. So we did, we came back Tobin's work finished house that we were leasing was over the lease and Orlando was born and not well, so yeah, all the pointers, were saying, go home, go back to Adelaide. And we're all the family was. And and that was the best thing we ever did. It was a wonderful decision. But at the time, it felt really hard, because we invade our life for five years in London. And it was a really strange thing to do, to be unemployed and to be drifting and a bit anxious. But, but, of course, with all the support that we needed here, as new parents, so that was good. And Lando needed to have the services, and it has needed the services that Adelaide can offer. And he's, he's been very well looked after, by by Nobita Children's Services and a range of other therapies that the that are here, and that certainly wouldn't have been able to be accessed in London. So yeah, it was a decision. But it did change everything in terms of art. For me, I stopped everything I did actually try at one point, I vaguely remember contacting an agent here to try and maybe do some part time bits and pieces, which was a folly, it was a folly of an idea, there was no way that I was going to be able to rock up to a casting at six in the morning, or even a shoot at six in the morning, after dropping my child at childcare with people who wouldn't know what to do around his specific needs at that time. None of that was possible anymore. And in the end, I didn't want to anyway, I needed to be at home. And my my job became being a therapist for at least the next full time, or at least the next five years. You know, it was spent doing that. Yeah. So throughout this time, did you find that you you got the support that you needed yourself? Like you talked about Orlando having the support with the different services? Did you? Did you find that you were supported? In all the ways that you needed to be? That's a good question, Allison, I I have to admit that. Probably not. So fortunately, you know, I'd had 10 years of relationship with Tobin that was solid. And if that hadn't been the case, I think we would have been in a bit of trouble, I recommend that part of it saved me. And the family around us was also vitally important at that time. I've got sister and brother and Tobin's got a brother here too. So it was very much a family. thing, but there was a lot of grief going on at the time. And I think that psychologically, I probably could have done with some outside help. Now, if that had happened, I think I'd be calling up the closest counselor and getting because I've since had counseling and found it to be incredibly useful for other things, you know, at that time, for some reason, it just wasn't. So something that came up. I remember having a massage though, back in England, before we even made it back here I had a massage with a friend who's a therapist, and she said, I think you're I think you need to have a massage and I'm going to I'm going to get stuck in. So lie down on the bed and get going. And so she started and and this is probably one of the single most revealing things to me about where I was at at the time, and probably where I was still at for quite a while. And she started to massage me and there's something about trauma being sort of locked in the body. It's a visceral, physical thing. It's not just the heart thing or head thing or whatever. And this became really clear to me she started messaging me and I started to feel nauseous. I thought I was going to vomit through the hole that my face was in. I thought oh, I'm in danger of being sick, I'm going to be sick and I started to sort of shake and I thought no, I can't be here anymore. I can't be here and I started to have a bit of a panic because I think she was starting to kind of get into some spaces and unlocked some things and and I said I've got to go I've got to go and I could feel my it'll kind of building up behind my eyes and my head this force that I didn't know what was going to happen. And she said okay, and I just ran off and I ran into the bathroom and I fell on the floor and I'm not one for sitting on floors of bathrooms even the cleanest and it was a clean bathroom. But it's not really my my game But I remember falling on the ground. And I remember, the noise that came out to me was like an animal. And it was kind of like a, like a scream, roar. thing. And I wanted to be quiet because I didn't want to hurt it, you know, here in the household to be disturbed where I was, but um, yeah, out it came this great, great big noise. Yeah. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of grief. You know, I've, I've since read lots of things about this. And I remember one at the time reading, when I learned it was about one. And I'm reading this thing about the analogy of somebody going on a plane to go on a holiday in your pack, and you're preparing, you get organized. And you know, where you're going, and you're excited, you look forward to the food that you're going to try. And you think about the weather that you're going to get there. And you maybe you've booked a beautiful place to stay, and there might be a pool, and you know, and you're planning all of these lovely experiences. And then halfway through the trip, the pilot says I'm sorry, but we're actually going to be landing in somewhere else, maybe, you know, as Becca Stan, or something like this, where you've never been in certainly wasn't what you were planning on. And you land and everyone's in shock. And they're saying, When are we going to leave? When are we going to leave? You know, we should be able to make an X flight out of here, you know, but then they say, No, I'm afraid this is this is actually where you are. And you need to look around and find somewhere to eat and find some accommodation and get sorted. And, you know, the analogy is clear, you know, you you end up in another country. That's what it was like. And you think this is not what I it's not what I planned, and it's not what I wanted, and it's it's scary. And it's strange, and I don't I don't know the language. And I was out I was without all the resources. I haven't had anything to do with disability before this happened. And I was terrified of it. What it did do, you know, inevitably, is that once you look around the country, and you actually start meeting some amazing people, and you think, Gosh, these people are incredible. And this has been here all along. And you know, why didn't I think of coming here before and the food's not so bad. And you know, and that's exactly what happened to the community of people in the disability sector are incredible. And I met many other children who are going through far more than Orlando who's actually got quite a mild disability with his CP. And I have enormous respect and compassion and joy when I'm around those people. And I didn't believe that I would ever experience such an incredible level of, of admiration and love for this world that I'm in now, and we have been for a long time. And yeah, I wouldn't actually want it to be any different. I would like it to be different for him, because he experiences hardship. But I, I, for myself, I'm a very different person. And the person that I was where I was up to my eyeballs in my own performing, singing, dancing world of, of what can be a very consuming and very narcissistic environment, sometimes in the performing arts changed everything. It changed everything. Yeah, you can't be the same person. Yeah, absolutely. That's so profound. So honest, and sharing that so so eloquently Janet's incredible period of your life, as the years sort of went on. Did you find yourself then perhaps thinking about maybe returning to performing or did you even start writing or journaling or anything? To even to help cope with things? I don't know? Did you return to art new music? Yeah, yeah, I did. And the only thing that kind of was able to be like that held on I suppose throughout all of that stuff was music. Because I was able to write words. In the evening or at night, I was able to, by the time Orlando was about one and a half I was probably meeting up with a friend who had recorded some of the earliest survive stuff as a as an engineer. I knew he played guitar and I had really lost a lot of contacts in this town, as far as music goes. And so I just called him up and said, Do you want to jam on some of the stuff I'm writing? I've been I've been writing. So I did so probably once a week or once a fortnight I'd I'd do just go around to his house and we'd muck around on some songs. It eventually became the band, cat dog bird, which I was doing for 10 years. really, from beginning to end, it was about 10 years where we were pretty regularly rehearsing and performing various venues and festivals around South Australia. And that was the thread. That was the thing that kind of got me back in. And it was it was a bit of a turnaround for writing, as well, because I hadn't really been writing my lyrics at the time. When we were in survival. It was it was Tobin writing the words, I didn't do any of the writing, even though Creative Writing was always my favorite thing. At school, and whatever it wasn't, I didn't have the confidence or something. And I didn't feel I had anything much to say maybe as well. But certainly, and I know, one of your questions probably pertains to one of your questions anyway. But I think I think I suddenly had a lot to say about a lot of things actually not just about mothering or the issues of the heart. But just about the environment I was in and as soon as you bring somebody into the world, you're very, very aware of the world that they're going into, in its really acutely different way, I think. Yeah, absolutely. You safely say things in in different ways. You never realized things with whether you were looking at something but you never saw it in that way. Then all of a sudden, you put on a different pair of sunglasses, and you know, everything looks different and feels different. And yeah, absolutely. When you when you got back into doing the work with cat dog good, how old was all end up at that stage? I think I think it was about one and a half when I started venturing out into that. Yeah, I guess. Obviously Tobin would have been, would have taken the lead with caring for Orlando when you were doing this, and that must work always. Always in the night. So I was he was asleep. I'd go off and I'll come back, you know, after a couple of hours. And and that carried on for for many, for years, really? And yeah, if there was any performances and things and yes, Tobin was always the person that would hold the fort for everybody, particularly as more children came along, that became obviously more of a thing. Yeah. So tell me about your, the rest of your family. So I've got a rider who's now 14. And he. He's a very dedicated artist himself. They all are actually all three of them. They're very much into their own things, mainly writing and drawing. And making, but also some music as well. And I've got IV as well, who was born in 2009. So she's 12. And she's, yeah, she's great. She's right into piano, playing really, and a lot of crafty Makey things. She's She's into that and creative writing as well. So, yeah, they're all busy little boards. Now. They're all busy doing their own lovely making, and brings me a lot of joy to and actually inspires me a lot. They're very disciplined. Yeah. And you're not I wouldn't have been at their age No way. Better now, but not not. Let's go so may have mentioned or your children, I want to bring in the question that I always like to ask my interviewees about, do you feel that it's important for you, for your children to say what you're doing yourself away from being the mum, but also being Jen, the performer, the singer? Is that important for you for your kids to recognize that and to, I guess, value that and see the importance of what you're doing? Yeah, I think so. I think I think it's good if as a as a parent, that you can reveal something about your world that that makes you passionate. You know, I think it's important that children can see their parents in, in many colors as many colors as possible. Because you're the real people, you know, and I think children are necessarily self involved, they have to be that's exactly what they need to be and they are until they're 20, I guess around that round about that 20 age, you know, where we're actually be a bit younger than that, but around 20 is when they, their brains are really finished knitting together and and then looking out wood and separately, you know, forging their identities very much separately to the family. But certainly up until about be and I think it's important if they if they know that there are other things going on, not just what we are doing as parents to support them in their work. holds in making sure they're comfortable and safe and loved. But if they can see that there's other things that they need to be mindful of, and I think it's in everybody's best interest, I think there would possibly have been plenty of occasions where I may have really struggled, I think, to parent the way I want to parent to be the person I want to be for them, if I didn't have other things going on. And I think it is a benefit to them to know that those things are there. They can be mindful of them, they can try and understand them. It's not something to talk about. It's something that's that it's that connects to their world, and is intrinsic to their development, too. But I also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about, I think it's good if they can see that those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are, because I do believe everyone has an artist within them. Somewhere, you know, someone who wants to express themselves in some way or another creatively, because I believe we're all creative. Everyone is what people think they're not. But I think that's just because they haven't understood how they connect to that part of themselves. And it doesn't need to be something that I do for work, but but just the way that they live, the choices that they make and the way that they execute their ordinary day. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen. So my husband, who still paints, still makes films and still is involved in art in many, in many ways, musically, as well, still, that I think they have from an early age our kids anyway have have cottoned on to the idea that it's not only such an option, it's, you know, it's not just a boredom, filler, it's, it could be something that keeps you steady for the whole of your life. It's a mental health issue, actually. Yeah, that's so true. And I think when you talk about the options, like I think the kids are so drilled into them, they've got to you've got to go get a job you got to do you need got to do this and that and by showing them that you can actually your passion can actually be the thing that you do every day of your life is funny, that's an awesome thing to show them. And your children are quite involved in your art you've had I think it was in a film clip, was she sure. What's the word mind? You're sort of one of your songs? Yes, she she was given at the time. Yeah, and you've also had your latest track it's just come out you've got I think it'd be for all the children in the music video will just run just for one year his his friends, The Seagull and the seagull which is a beautiful beautiful track I'm gonna put a link to that if you don't mind in the stunning it is just beautiful. And the film the music video is just a beautiful sensation. So much you know, we worked we worked hard on many of those elements but some of those things we weren't really sure how they were going to marry together until until you actually start to build it so there's a number of chance elements that kind of come into making something like that but I feel like the video does a lot of justice to the to the music in this case. So that was Ryder involved in that but Orlando's now set to somehow appear in one of the future videos he's got ideas about what that should look like. Where we're negotiating at the moment that's exciting busy drawing a lot of he's doing a lot of illustrations for merch that will be coming out soon so he's he's right drawing is one of his his favorite skills and so he's he's busy working on some merch for us which will be fun. Oh, that's awesome, man. It's so lovely to get the stone on today this concept that the media and social media throws around of the Mum guilt? I'll put it in inverted commas. What's your take on that? How do you feel about that whole concept? It's an interesting one. And isn't it? I think I think that perhaps the minute you have a newborn baby in your arms, I think there's a certain instinctive kind of guilt that weaves itself to you. At the same time, I feel like along with responsibility and needing to give yourself fully to another being in a way that you've never had to before. I think that is one of the flip sides of that. I don't know that it's easy to escape that feeling of whatever you like, I feel like, you know, it's so easy for me to tap into, it's one of those scarily close things that keeps company with me, the idea that I could let someone down so easily, that my choices might impact on somebody so easily and so deeply. Without me even trying, it's because we're human, where we're built to not, not win all the time, we're often going to fail, we're going to make the wrong decisions, we're going to hurt people, I think its inherent in the human condition, we're imperfect. And so depending on what level of expectation you put on upon yourself, would sort of correspond to the amount of guilt you feel around, around around those things. And a lot of that's perceived stuff, some of it's not even true or real, what we think we might be doing to damage our children, you know, possibly isn't even isn't even there in the first place, we have massive capacity as humans to invent, you know, scenarios that we can feel guilty about, I think the Catholic Church did a really good job of harvesting the, the natural tendencies that humans have, and providing them with a place that they can discuss this alleviate their this guilt that they have. And as a mother, I think, you know, it's in tenfold, because I think you're constantly faced with choices and decisions to make that are going to, either positively or negatively impact the balance of the family of one child and or another or, you know, and I feel like you're constantly weighing those things up. And for me, guilt is a very present thing, I, I struggle with that a bit. So now than I did, when I was first a parent, I feel like I don't feel like guilty is a very useful space to be in, I feel like it. It informs things and I think it serves a purpose, often to make you consider and weigh up what's going on, perhaps if you didn't have that you just go full throttle into whatever it was that hedonistic desires, it's sort of it holds you up for a moment just to check yourself, I suppose just give you that little in the ear, like, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And perhaps the the point of that is then to listen to what that is saying and decide whether that is real, a real concern or whether it is coming from somewhere else. And when I say coming from somewhere else, I mean, the voices in your ears that to other people, or other sort of societal things, saying, oh, you know, women have got many of them, many more than men, I would say about why we should be doing this or that or the other. We have, you know, other generations of women who, you know, well, meaning as they might be, might say things like, oh, but you know, wouldn't, wouldn't it be better if it was the mum, you know, staying with them? Or Wouldn't it be better if, you know, it's, you know, really your job to do that not the babysitter or not the husband or, or there might be other well meaning voices that you know, say are but you can go back to work, but really, it's, you know, it's better to be at home or, you know, you've only got a few years and, you know, so you've got a lot of those voices, I think and depending on what your own mother did, well, your own grandmother's did around mothering there's there's no shortage of voices that might speak into what you feel you'd like to do. And so I've had plenty of guilt laid on me externally, for choosing to go and perform or staying up late at night doing a show and coming back, possibly tired the next day or things like that. Or even just pursuing, you know, something that you're passionate about. So pursuing doggedly, this vision to communicate through music, you know, what a thing. You know, there's such a lot of beauty around that, but, but strangely, it can be twisted to make it seem like the most selfish pursuits. You know, what are you doing that for? What's the point in that? And I do have a few voices that come to me from that direction as well. And over the years have have made me you know, pull up short, hang on what it what is that about? What does that mean? Is it something to listen to? Or is it just that person's own experience of life and, you know, being imposed upon me, my own mum has never made me feel anything other than supported for making art. She's been incredible in that way. And I think if that hadn't been the case, I might have drowned in I might have, like, a lot of women of my age, who suddenly dropped off the face of the earth as far as music and making and other art forms can go, if I didn't have such a supportive mum, who has never, to my memory made me feel at all, like I should be doing something else, even making money or something like that. She's never made me feel less for choosing those things. And she's just been happy to jump in and babysit or offer, you know, she's even offered to support me financially, you know, at different times when, when there's just no money coming in. Not that I've taken her up on those things, I think we've always sort of managed somehow. But I think that I think that was a really important part of it. Absolutely, because you could, you could see how differently it could have been, if we didn't have that spot in there, like you said, you know, just yet, Jen lash would have wandered off into the nevernever. And, yeah, that's so important. I want to bring in now, this this amazing book that you recommended to me, by North col Rachel power, and it's called the divided heart, art and motherhood. And it's like someone has FM's everything that you've ever thought in your whole life about creating and being a mother. It's like, the feelings and the emotions associated. But no one really talks about it, no one makes you feel okay about feeling the way that you do. And there's a quote that I just want to read from her that really stuck with me. It's, it's she's written that writing became his single act of independence. And when I read that, I just went, Oh, you're not kidding. Like, it's like, your whole life and your whole world exists for this one being. And yeah, you grapple with the things that you still had left from your previous life, it seemed perfectly to you for what you're interested in pursuing and talking about with people, it seemed like a perfect document. Absolutely insane. And I'll put a link to that book in the description, too. For anyone else who's interested. I agree that it's an extremely affirming thing to read it as a person who's doing I think it's important to note that making a choice to be an artist, anyway, is a really difficult decision to make in a way, but it's one that doesn't feel like a choice as well, like I don't actually feel compelled to do many other things I've always been compelled to do to make and I will, I will continue to do that. Even when, you know, I'm not putting anything out publicly, if ever, you know, it comes up, I'll still be compelled to make I'm sure of it. There's just totally there has always been there. And so it's that to make a choice to to be an artist. Whatever gender you identify as, I think it's a difficult decision. It's a road that is not well traveled, it's often fraught with issues don't really get a lot of financial reward necessarily for it. So you sometimes have to balance other work and other things with it trying to make it work. As a woman, I think it's it's another whole layer of of complexity. And I love that these women who are speaking in this book, are acknowledging that difficulty, you know, the fact that they are compelled to do this, this is the vocation they've chosen this is that this is what they're doing, whether they're making money from it or not. but also trying to do all the other things that they're trying to do as well, which don't necessarily enter into the complexity around being a male artist is a really interesting thing to read about. And as a woman who's also going through similar things, I found it an incredibly affirming document. And, like you said, spoke to things that might be considered negative emotions or whatever, as well as positive things in a way that was so real, and you can just identify with it. There's a wonderful poem by Kate Kennedy. And she, she's in the book as well. She's one of my favorite writers. And she, she wrote a poem, which I now can't think of the name of right now. I'll have a little Google and I'll let you know in a minute. It's in her book, the taste of river water. And she writes, a lot of that poetry collection is around motherhood, and being a writer. And I, oh, no, it's called it's called the Zen master have to suddenly remembered and I read that poem, that she thing and also her writing about what it is to try and write while you've got a toddler underneath trying to drag you to come outside and play and do these things. You're like, No, I just need to finish this. I've got to get this finish. And I just, yeah, it just had a real emotional impact upon me reading that. So Jen, do you find that your children pop up in your work at current work, or you're really influenced by them at the moment that the kids your kids actually end up featuring in quite a lot of the songs? And on this new album? I reckon they're probably in two or three of the songs, actually. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because that's a big part of, of my life, and they are a massive part of it. And you know, not necessarily talking directly about them, but about, you know, the impact that they have on, on me or on a situation or seen there's one about glass where, you know, I feel like I want to, it's called Glass and I feel like I often look at them at every stage that they've been at, and want to kind of shrink wrap them as they are, they're hilarious, or that little jumper that you never, ever want them to grow out, or, you know, all the funny things they say, or the little list they speak with, or, you know, just the interactions that they have, or that kind of thing, but each stage is is unique and special and funny and beautiful in its own regard. And also hard and challenging, too. But, um, you know, and so, this song is about impermanence. It's about that shifting, that constant shifting, that I noticed daily as a mother, and there's nothing more evident than the shifting of time is when you're looking at your children, because they're the ones that are constantly changing. You know, I think I've got lots of friends who don't have children. And I think for me, they almost remain ageless. Because I don't notice time passing when I'm with them. But when I'm around, like, my friends with children, we're like, holy crap, look at these kids. They used to be this small and now they try it, you know, and it's, it's a it's a real thing, you know, and I and I do, I do love the different stages, but I do I'm a very aware of the impermanence of this, of that shift of things that are that are not going to remain. So yeah, there's, there's a, there's a bunch of references in his new work that come come from them and actually directly so I did want to say that because when we talk about the impact of motherhood on art, probably what I wasn't expecting was was how much of an inspiration or you know, around content, the things that I feel like I want to write about, is quite frequently inspired by by them too, so far from being a pull on, on my creative processes there actually end up being integral to it in many ways. Hi, remember when you came down and you played at the watershed in Glencoe a couple of years ago? Yeah. And you played a song called Wolf? Yeah. And that song has, it's like it's set off this little. It planted a seed in my mind. The song it's about postnatal depression, and added a seed in my mind, which has now turned into I'm making an album. Um, I'm halfway, probably halfway through it. Yeah. And it's cold war. And it's about my post now depression, say, oh my never told you that. Oh, that's, that's really incredible and very moving to here and a very exciting to hear as well, I'd been wanting to write about it for so long, but I didn't quite know how it would sound. And then when I heard that song, and I thought I can I can share these songs in a way that our listeners will I suppose it's my pleasure, that's what, that's what the power of of sharing your work is about? I think you know, because quite often you could I could happily sit in my bedroom and just write and write and write and make and make and make and there's a part of me that doesn't feel necessarily compelled to share, share it, because I'm already doing the thing that I'm happy with. But there is there is a part of me that that says, Well, you know, this is this is also for sharing this is also for communicating with others something there's a desire within within us all, I think is to be understood and to communicate and is a brilliant conduit for communication. And even I studied dance and theater and I carried on doing that for quite a long time, I found that music was the most direct form of communication that I ended up wanting to settle into, even though it wasn't really my training area at all. And I think with with making songs like Wolf, there is a desire to capture something about the real stories, the real stories that are happening, you know, in motherhood, and it's not always, not always the Easy, easy ones to ride. I remember thinking that that one, I wanted to try and understand it for, you know, somebody close to me who was going through that, and, and trying to find ways of doing it. And then I remember thinking that a lighter musical treatment, over quite heavy words, was probably going to be the best conduit for this particular song. And I've actually use that a lot in my music, this idea of a lighter musical treatment, something that doesn't necessarily mirror the seriousness of the of the lyric can sometimes be that juxtaposition that's needed other times No, but certainly with some songs, I think that's, that can be a nice trick to get people to, to not be too bogged down in and yet still hear, you know, because you want to be heard. That's the thing that's most important, I think. Absolutely. I love how you articulate that. I guess I can ask you Is there anything else that you'd like to share around this topic that you feel like we might not have covered that's important to you, I think this is a really important subject, it doesn't ever become less important because we need to be talking about how it is to be women in art, and the layer extra layer of mothering in art, and making time carving out space for that very, very special and important part of your life, as an artist, as a woman is, is vital. And my when I'm thinking of a tune, and I'm working on a piece of song, and I use that voice memo in my iPhone, it is probably 60% of it. Now back when I was smaller, it would have been 99% of it is full of them bursting into the space with a question or something that was needed the wear of the washing machine in the background. And I'd be sending bits of samples of songs that I was writing to the rest of the band and I've been, you know, littered with interruptions and, and funny little squeaking voices coming out. I can remember wanting to spend maybe 20 minutes and I got very good at being efficient with my time. That's one thing I will say is that as a mother, I think you know, this idea that you need to be inspired and wait for the muse to come and sit on your shoulder or you need to sit in some beautiful, picturesque, you know, space in the studio in the middle of a field until you know, and that's the conditions that you can write under. No, no. I think I would never have made a single thing you know. So I'm excited much because I can just totally relate to what you saved in. I would say I'm going just for 20 minutes into my room. I had a sliding door so it wasn't even a door I could shoot a lot. It was a sliding door. And I said I'm just gonna go in this was when I made the night's insomnia. I said I'm just going to go in there I need to work on something 20 minutes I've got something in my head I need to resolve and I just need to record it and then I'll be able to remember it and then I'll be able to get back to whatever it was I was doing with you. So I'm just gonna go for 20 minutes And I know just the timing is perfect, seriously? Yeah. The little dot, the hands I've worked out could slide that door open, and then in a trot, and I'd be in the middle of recording and you know, I'm just wondering, I'm just wondering, and why they'd go and it would be short. And I'd be answering questions while still singing. It was just, it was remarkable. I still have some of those on my phone. And another thing that happened was when I was recording the cat dog bird album back in 2000. Well, forever, really, but it was released around 2014. And 15. IV was a baby, when we were recording some of the tracks. I remember her being six months old and sitting in a bouncer thing. And I was in the studio recording. And I remember her crying, and then I needed to breastfeed, and you know, and it was. And I remember, most of the men in that room that were there, you know, working on the recording with me, was slightly peeved. I think at the time, the noise, the disruption, the needing to stop and start. And it was only some years later when one of those men that I was working with had his own children. And he came back to me and he said, I keep thinking about when you had baby IV in the studio, and you were trying to record and no one was really all that patient with you. And that would have been a really hard thing to do. And now I've got my own girls, I kind of think that was a pretty extraordinary thing that you were carving out that time for that to happen. And that album wouldn't have been able to happen if I hadn't said no, this is a priority. I know that this is not ideal for her, she'd probably rather be at home. And it's probably not ideal for me, I'd probably rather not be needing to breastfeed or, you know, console her or, you know, get her to sleep while I do the next take or whatever. But we must make. Yep, we must. We must keep going. You know. And I think I hope that I hope that the kids as they get older, understand that making time for that to happen. Whether it be the boys seeing that that's a woman making time for that to happen, whether it's five in understanding that she must make time for that to happen in whatever way. But that's hopefully one of the gifts that that we as mothers can actually give our kids. Now when I'm recording their tiptoe around, they'll say Are you recording as they're coming up the stairs? And okay, yes. They're really quiet. And they've worked it out now. And they're incredibly generous with that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Before I let you go, can you tell us what you've got coming up. So coming up, I've got a new album coming out. It's due out on August the 20th. We're going to be performing at the Goodwood Institute, which is in Goodwood on Goodwood road 7pm. And the tickets you can get on, try booking. And just before that on the 24th of July, we have a collaboration kind of session, the meal was part of the umbrella music festival. And it's going to be a three way conversation, really where I'm going to try and tie together all the different collaborations I do, whether it be the songwriting or do with children, at kindergarten, I'm going to share some of those and then have a bit of a co write with the people in the room. I'm going to talk about the collaboration I do with poets do a lot of work with poets around Australia. And so I'm going to talk a little bit about that process. And then finally, we'll be sharing some of the songs that we'll be featuring on this new album. So that's tickets through Eventbrite for that one, and that's at the meal on the 24th of July. So there's a couple of shows coming and of course there's new singles coming out in the lead up to all of this that's kind of on YouTube or Spotify or all of the platforms really do bots on underwater. On one bots day and dry above the time. They more than oxygen stay alive. curdle, six to eight you can watch the going on I'm so thrilled to find sponsors. Thank you for being on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure and an honor to talk to you. Thank you. It's just been so lovely to chat. I feel like times just disappeared and it's been really lovely to be. Yeah, reflecting on some of these things. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with the Nazi stickman. Can you

Beth Stephen Australian singer + songwriter S2 Ep74 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am very excited to welcome to the podcast today Beth Stephen, a singer, songwriter and mother of 2 from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the Teeny Tiny Stevies. Beth grew up in a very musical family, her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to a gig and listening to her parents band rehearse. In her teenage years Beth and her sister Byll decided to start their own indie-folk group, The Little Stevies and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria playing their own songs. (The girls actually still release music as The Little Stevies) In 2015, inspired by the need to teach Byll’s three-year-old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children’s songs. What began as a side-hobby became so fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and The Teeny Tiny Stevies were born. Before they knew it, their debut album ‘Useful Songs for Little People’ had become a word-of-mouth sensation around Australia. They’ve since released 4 albums through ABC Music, won both the ARIA Award and AIR Award for ‘Best Children’s Album’ in 2020, been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street’s online channel in the US, and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book, released in December 2021, was nominated for the 2022 ABIA Best Children’s Book Award. They’ve also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC KIDS TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC KIDS iView app. And at the time of recording this, the girls are up for another ARIA Award for their album How to Be Creative, the winners announced this week. Beth website Podcast - instagram / website Tiny Tiny Stevie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to have you. today. I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast bet Stephen. She's a singer songwriter, and mother of two from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the teeny tiny Stevie's Beth grew up in a very musical family. Her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to gigs and listen to her parents bands rehearse. In her teenage years, Beth and her sister veal, decided to start their own indie folk group, the little Stevie's and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria, playing their own songs. The girls actually still released music as the little steamies in 2015, inspired by the need to teach Bill's three year old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children's songs. What began as a side hobby became so much fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and the teeny tiny Stevie's were born. Before they knew it, their debut album, useful songs for little people had become a word of mouth sensation around Australia. They've since released four albums through ABC music won both the ARIA Award and the air award for best children's album in 2020. They've been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street's online channel in the US and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book released in December 2021 was nominated for the 2022 Abia Best Children's Book Award. They've also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC Kids TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC Kids IP app. And at the time of this recording, the girls are up for another ARIA award for their album how to be creative in the 2022 areas. The winners will be announced this week. The teeny tiny Stevie's music appears today with permission by my APRA m cos online mini licensing agreement. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoyed today's chat. When it's time to end everything is I lay down my head say good night. Thanks so much for coming on today, Beth. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome me and to meet you as well. Alison, it's an absolute delight to be here. Thank you. You are a little bit of a famous person, you and your sister. Are we are we famous, you're famous. I don't know that. I did just do like a heap of shows at the Opera House. We did. And my goodness, have we been telling everybody because it's not every day that you get to perform at such such an amazing venue. And so look, we may never be able to do it again. But hopefully we do. So I think I'm starting to go through life with that sort of mind frame which which I'm quite enjoying it just going enjoy this as it may be the last time which has been actually really great to just really lean into enjoying things as much as you can. Yeah, that's thing isn't it? Because sometimes we can take things for granted in the moment. It's just happening. But yeah, if you can sort of stop and go actually, yes, I'm going to experience this fully and and there's nothing wrong with telling people to because you can be really proud of yourself you know to sing at the Opera House is a pretty big achievement. So yeah, I quite enjoyed the the secret of skates. You know, bringing the ring what was it the physio Are you because I've just done some shows of the opera house? Yes. And I should ask you that, you know, credit to my sister bill, my big sister bill. She is quite the comedic talent. And look, she she entertains me as much as she entertains. Everybody else who follows follows us on on the socials. You get the feeling she quite enjoys doing that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think it could be a throwback to a few drama. Training that she did. I remember going to hear VCA drama, final performance, and it was quite quite entertaining and amusing outside the UK. So using skills in different parts of life. So as good. So tell our listeners, what you are and who you don't what, sorry, what you do. You do. That is it. You ever said introduction to to yourself and what you are passionate about with your music? Well, as you said, I am a musician and songwriter. And I work with my sister, Bill Stevens Avila. And we are the teeny tiny Stevie's and we started this project maybe six or seven years ago, after we had been playing music together as the little Stevie's since we were teenagers. And we sort of got to the point where Bill was starting to have kids herself. And we just sort of got to the point where we had to start asking ourselves some, you know, difficult, challenging questions, a lot centered around how we're going to keep doing this, if we want to, you know, with the money that we're making at the time, which essentially wasn't really enough. And so the way that life was changing, we sort of had to ask ourselves, those questions of how we were going to do it, what should we do going forward, we still want to keep doing music. And that's when we decided that we wanted to do a bit of a pivot, you know, reinvent ourselves a bit. As you have to do all the time, going through life, when you sort of you find yourself getting stuck a bit, and you sort of have to think about things differently. And that's when we started seeing tiny Stevie's. And we thought, at the time, actually, we were thinking about potentially writing some comedy music, which I feel ridiculous even saying that sentence, because I'm not, not the naturally funny one. But I sort of thought, you know, maybe I could be the straight person, you know, again, side by side with Bill and I should be the funny man. And we did actually, you know, try and write some music like that. But then the other thing that we were exploring was trying to write some kid songs. And I sort of, say, Kids Songs in quotation marks, because I guess, the journey that the team science babies has been on, and what we have discovered about ourselves, and what we like to do, and our skill set is that it's not specifically for kids, it's for families. And we like to write about things that can be great conversation starters, within the household and within, you know, social settings and, and friendship circles. So yeah, and really, you know, over the last six or seven years, it's just gone from strength to strength, and it has definitely become the main thing now that we do, which is incredible. I never really thought that. I mean, I certainly hoped and dreamed that music would become the main thing that was has always been the dream. But, you know, for it to actually become that that's pretty special. So, you know, going back to trading each thing that we do, as you know, this could be the last time so we're definitely going to enjoy it. I think maybe those two things are connected a bit of just going off got to pinch ourselves. Sometimes we get to do all this amazing stuff. Yeah, it's fantastic. I love speaking to people who have have made their love into what they do every day. I think it's just wonderful. It's just, it's such a fulfilling life to have, like, I can't, like not speaking from experience with the music side of things, but the job that I have with children I absolutely adore. And I'm so lucky that I do it every day. And I sometimes think that I think God I get paid to do this, like, yeah, I would do it anyway. You know what I mean? Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it? Fortunately, or unfortunately, you do it anyway. And we would do it anyway, at least, you know, if I think if you do have something that you're just driven by and so passionate about, you will you will fight for it and you will do it no matter what. in some capacity, you know, not always in the capacity that you would hope. Hope see, because obviously there are lots of things in life that can that impact that. But yeah, it's uh, yeah, fortunate later on unfortunately, forget on the day. Yeah, yeah in my mind in my head so your sister, how how many you guys twins? Or is there a bit of an age gap? Sorry, I'm not really sure. No, that's okay. Looking with Bill was listening she she'd love that comment that you just made? No, we're not twins. But you are probably the third person that's asked that question this week. Oh, I think is a huge four years older than I but she just doesn't seem to age. So somehow she managed to get that really fantastic, Jane. Yeah, that's actually I can, I can appreciate what you're saying. Because my sister and I, I'm two and a half years older, but for years, you know, and even now, sometimes people will get us confused because they're speaking voices and our singing voices are almost identical. And I used to trick people on the phone when we were younger. That who they're talking to, and my sister, the she used to work in our family, plant nursery, and people would see me down the street and ask me questions about their Protoss drums or their whatever's and I just, I don't like to embarrass people like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I'm not Emma, I just sort of play along. Oh, gosh, oh, it was because I just I felt I wouldn't do it now. But I felt really bad for the person. And I'll pop into the nursery, and I'll help you in. And then you find yourself into doping. You're like, Oh, yeah. And I don't want to have to be like, Emma, there's a person gonna come in and think that they've already spoken to you. So get ready, you know? Yeah. I mean, did you girls ever do stuff like that? Like, cheeky things? Do you know what I actually don't think we did? I don't have any memories of it. Which, that sounds very boring. I know. Now you sound like fun. Very fun. So you girls have always sang together? Is this been a thing that's happened right from the present? As you know, for as long as you can remember? Absolutely. Yeah. So our parents were musicians, full time musicians for a good period of time in their working life. So certainly, as a little kids, you know, we as young kids, we saw Mom and Dad, you know, going off to work at night, they would pick up, you know, they'd get all dressed up in their stage view, and then pack their know their bags, and the babysitter would come around, and we, you know, go to bed just after they left. And yeah, that was just lots of strong memories of that. And then lots of big memories of the band coming over to rehearse in the garage. And we would either be, you know, in there listening with them observing everything, I don't know, rolling around on the floor, probably, or in the main house, you know, sort of listening through the baby monitor type scenario. So yeah, I've got really fond memories of all that. So you know, as a household music was always encouraged. Mum and Dad have always been extremely enthusiastic about us taking an interest in it. And I think you know, now that I've got kids in my own, I think probably when we reached those teenage years, when we started to show interest separate from Mum and Dad, and we started to explore things together a bit more. And we kind of discovered each other in our teenage years. Though, I can imagine that they were wrapped, you know, that we just had something to focus that energy into, because I guess, you know, sometimes teenagers can be a bit. You know, you can find yourself a bit lost and distracted. And so I think to have that, yeah, had to have that focus was probably a great thing. You know, maybe they probably weren't so stoked when it became obvious that we were really going to pursue it seriously. In terms of, you know, the money of them probably thinking to themselves, Oh, I don't I don't know if it's the most secure. Most secure Korea, but you know, as parents, it's yeah, it's a hard thing to balance all those feelings, I imagine. Yeah, that's the thing is a lot. I'm going through that with my son at the moment. He's thinking about what he wants to do. And I keep saying choose something that you love. Just pick something you really love. And my husband's a financial planner, and he's going Yeah, but make sure you know, you got enough money. I know it's, it's, yeah, I imagined their hard conversations to have. Yeah, yeah. So did you start learning instruments like formally or do you just pick things up from your parents? I had that sort Okay, both we do Yeah, we both did, you know, formal training on instruments through school, I think that was a bit of a expectation that mum and dad had. But then we also did it just ourselves, you know, at home, pick up picking up the guitars and stuff like that, and started to write songs. But really, you know, learning the guitar, and instruments like that was really just a vessel to be able to write songs and start writing songs. And I think at some stage, Mom said to me, she goes up to both of us, but she said, You know, one of the best things that you can do is to just learn an instrument that you can accompany yourself with. So you're not reliant on anybody else. To be able to write and perform your own songs, if that's what you want to do. And that was really great advice. And I'd probably give that year on to anyone else. Because it's great if you can just be self reliant, and then you can collaborate with others. But you know, if there aren't other people to collaborate with, and you can't rely on other people, you can still do the thing that you love. And you can still do it really well. And you don't have to be a superstar on your instrument. You just, it's just handy to be able to, you know, play a few chords. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And then yeah, as a tool for songwriting, that you've actually got something you can not get you, your chords on, or, you know, he trains and things. Yeah. So can I ask with your parents, with a songwriters, as well, what sort of band did they have? They were, so they did their own original stuff. And they also did a bunch of covers. So I think for them, it was a mixture of the cover work, you know, really paid the bills. And then they also did their original stuff, and sort of kind of integrated the two a lot of the time, and also did separate things within music. So yeah, and when they were younger, before we were on the scene, as kids, they had their separate original groups when they you know, in their early 20s. And they did lots of touring, and you know, had their their own success doing that. And then when they got together as a couple started the new thing. And, and they continue doing that while Bill was a young kid, and then for a little bit when I came along, but I think certainly me as the second child, I sort of burst the dream a little bit, and they got some more reliable jobs, or better paid jobs. If everyone was gentle all the time, everyone would feel so good. I'm jumping into this early in the conversation, but have you found that you've sort of that role modeling of how to balance the two has been useful for you with your own children? Oh, definitely. But I would probably say, only because, you know, I've, I was a kid when my parents were doing this themselves. So there's not really I can't really have a great understanding or, or perspective on that, I guess, now, but what I do have, and what I've had been so lucky to have is Bill, who has who went through it all before me, you know, at least sort of six or seven years before me and because we spend so much time together, and we also have a business together, and we work together in so many different capacities. I've seen that very, very closely what she's gone through. And that's just been hugely beneficial for me. I mean, it's still it's not like having your own kids and going through that yourself. By any means. Yeah, you'll, you'll sort of never really understand that to that level until you're doing it yourself. Because you're always going to have a different experience for someone else. But yeah, to be able to see all those peaks and Trump's very closely was very helpful. I think it made me go in with very low expectations, to be honest. And I think that was quite handy. Yeah, that's true, isn't it? Because I think that's the thing, like, unless you see it, you can have all these wild ideas, like I'm gonna wear the baby while I'm, you know, recording or you know, all these sort of things, and then you just happen to have it happen to you and you go on, that's never gonna work like so at least you sort of had this rough idea of what was perhaps achievable and, and what wasn't. Definitely, and the stress, you know, the stress of, you know, if you're doing here with another person, and you know, there's a partnership or relationship involved, like, what a huge thing. What a huge stress to put on a relationship like that's, it's enormous and it's and it's and it's ongoingly stressful, it's also can be great and beautiful and all of those things, but it's a constant negotiation and compromise and, and just because you talk about one thing once doesn't mean that it's going to remain that way for In the next 20 years, and, you know, you've got to nurture and meet everyone's needs involved is really tricky. Obviously, we all know that. So yeah. 22nd We're in the summer holiday, people rush to get this stuff done. So they can stop and take a break Christmas movies on the TV, Sunday's up close to the tree. So back to you girls in as the little Stevie. So what sort of how old? were you when you first started sort of that project? And what sort of things were you doing with that? So we started when I was 15. And I think Bill had just finished high school. And we, we basically just started applying for folk festivals around Victoria. And we were really lucky to get a couple of opportunities, doing those. And because we'd already started writing some songs, we really just, yeah, we started on the folk festival circuit for those years after that, and we just kind of learnt on the job, you know, which can be can be difficult when you're learning everything in front of an audience. And at that age to like you, I mean, not 15 Is not that old to be getting out there. And, you know, perhaps in a more adult sort of world as well. Yeah, look, it's um, you know, there's, there's so many different aspects to them, is it? I mean, it's, it's just, it's such a steep learning curve, when you are, how can I put this, we've never sort of been a group, you know, or sort of done music where we've just done it at home, in the privacy of our own space for years, and years and years. Before we go and perform it, or share it in front of an audience or with people, it's always been our rally song. Okay, well, I guess we better go and, you know, do something with it, you know, or not, and perform it. And that's, and that's when some of the embarrassing moments can happen when you're literally, you know, you're learning in front of an audience and in front of people. But gosh, you do some quick learning. And, yeah, I think sometimes if you if you spend too much time, just creating at home and sort of not sharing it, and you know, and it's hard to share it because you got to means you got to be vulnerable. And you know, you're putting yourself up for criticism. Yeah, sometimes, then you can sort of risk just never putting anything out and never showing anyone anything, and never been happy with anything as well. And then all of a sudden, so much time can pass. Anyway, so does that mean then you feel really comfortable on stage? Because, you know, literally anything could happen, anything could go wrong. And you're okay with that? Oh, no, I wouldn't say I'm okay with that. Okay. No, I like I know, I still get nervous all the time. And we still get nervous all the time. If, yeah, if there was a there was a video sort of videoing us when we get off stage every time Oh, my goodness, it would be just so embarrassing. Witnessing the conversations that we have, like, it's you know, I'll say isn't it's all literally let's just jump into just like talking about all the things that we you know, all the things we did wrong and all the mistakes that we made and oh, oh, what do you think they thought when we said this or did that and It'd be terrible if if, if people actually knew that, you know, the critique that we put ourselves through after we got off stage. But look I just mentioned i i just love performing. I love it so much. And Bill does too. So yeah, we just gotta get out there and do it. Hmm. So what aspects of performing Do you love the most when you say you really love it? What what do you look forward to? For a gig? Well, I love singing like I love the action of seeing the physical action of singing and it's you probably feel the same way or just it just makes you feel so joyous you know? It's a it really there's I don't know it's like exercising it just makes you feel incredible as endorphins go Yeah, you know mentally and physically so I think just that alone, I love the feeling that I get whilst doing it and after but I also love I love this is going to probably sound like I'm sort of I love the sort of validation or or positive affirmation and look, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that. I think everyone enjoys you know, getting positive feedback and but you know, we've been so If you go and someone comes up after a show or emails us and says, I've connected, or this, these lyrics that you wrote, have made me feel like this, or this has been my life experience, you have just summed that up so beautifully. You know, and they said something deeply personal about themselves, because they heard something that you've written like that is beyond special. And, you know, that's just, yeah, that makes you keep going. Because you're just like, wow, I don't I'm not sure. I think anything gets much better than this. Yeah, that is pretty awesome, isn't it? It's sort of I liken it to, it will never happen to me on this scale. But you know, when you're at the concerts and the famous people, they hold out the mic, and everyone knows the words, it's like that, yeah. Oh, you get it, you get me like, yeah, resonating with something that I'm putting out there. And that that is hugely validating? It's sort of, I mean, I know, we don't necessarily do our art for that reason. But it's a lovely, sort of side thing of that, that, that you're connecting with people, you know, and if you can't, yeah, you can reach somebody who might get so much out of what you're sharing like that, that example you gave. And it's so special, it is an awesome feeling. It is awesome. And, and we all know what it's like to have another person write a song. And for us to feel like there's just something up for us, and how special that is to be on the other side of things. Yeah, and there's so many people that I wish that I could say that to, you know, if I saw them in a physical sense that I just love to say, how much of an impact they've had on me. Which Yeah, now when I'm saying that loud, I should just do that more often. Through the wonders of social media, we actually have access to people we for I don't know, I used to write fan mail and post it off into the nether and you know, oh, that's so good. You remember the old Smash Hits magazine? Back? Yes. It was like, you know, they'd have their their fan mail address. And I'm swear, no one ever got those letters. But now you can literally just message someone and say, You're awesome. Yeah, it's pretty great, isn't it? Yeah. I really love that. This is totally off topic. But the other day, you know, Constantino, that magician? He's like, the grand illusion. Oh, yes. Yeah, he came to me at Gambia. And that was a big deal. Because we're just, you know, a little country town in the middle of Adelaide. And afterwards, because, you know, when you're, when you're in the know, you know, where the stage door is, and, you know, roughly how long people take to come out. So, my little, my little seven year old, he's a massive fan. He's got his books, you know, he's into him. And I said, Come on, let's wait till he comes out. And he's like, Oh, really, I said yet. It'll only be like half an hour. And it was only us and one other group of people were there. And he came out. And I said to him, I said, Because and Taylor said, what you're doing, you know, he writes books for kids with reading difficulties or ADHD dyslexia. Yeah, he went through that as a kid. And I said to him, thank you so much for what you're doing for the kids. Yeah. And he was so chuffed that did be had his book. You know, I think that meant that meant so much to him. You know, everyone loves his show, you know, he knows that everyone thinks he's amazing, but I think that connection with a child who was really into his stuff, and I made sure I told him because I'm like, This is great, like, yeah. Oh, that's great. I'm sure he appreciated that. And I can I can get a bit fangirl sometimes. And you will. It's hard to find the words though, isn't it? It is literally I don't know one day I met Kate soprano because my sister and I were this is really random store I don't know why I'm coming out with this. But we were at this corporate gig corporate event in on the Gold Coast for for plant nursery. And she just happened to be the the entertainment and so she was she called for people to come up sage singer backing track they didn't have the mics turned on so we were like off for God's sakes then we can sing we can sing proper backing but you know they had the microphone. And when I when I walked off I all I could say was I love you so much. It was just so embarrassed. I just love you so much and she's probably thinking God Who are these drunk women up on stage but anyway, I'm digressing now. These I don't go in my pants when I saw this this time you saying six or seven years ago you guys decided to do you change the direction And I'm really intrigued to know how you were received initially. And I don't want to I'm not comparing you to the wiggles at all, because you're completely different. The depth and the thought that goes into what you write and what you share is phenomenal. And so I'm just wondering, like, how, how it went down, as he would just ask that question, I was thinking to myself, Oh, my gosh, I wish I can maybe I recall. Sounds like a long time ago now. But look, I feel I feel as though probably for us, during the whole time that we've been doing music stuff. Sometimes, and often we have you know, we've we've written something, or we've taken a sort of decided that we take these kind of an approach. Yeah, we're even thinking to ourselves, Well, I'm not sure how this is gonna be received. But it feels right, it feels like the right thing to do. And she feels like the right thing to do for us. I think when we started, we definitely knew what we didn't want to do. And we had a pretty clear vision of what we did want to do what we didn't want to do. And we want to keep performing music alive, in pretty much the same capacity of what we're doing with the little Stevie's, which is really just a live band. Wearing what we would normally wear on stage, playing our instruments. But yeah, we weren't interested in doing anything else other than that. And yeah, there was there was probably a lot of questions around though I don't know, if that's going to necessarily been engaging enough. Or so there was a bit of, there was definitely some trial and error for sure. I think one of the first gigs that we did, as a team timings was at a festival, it was a festival slot. And, you know, we kind of like even scripted a bit of dialogue in between the songs, and, and sort of tried to, like, you know, order the songs to tell a bit of a story. And after we came on stage, that time we were, it was very obvious. We're just like, oh, no, this is not, this is not what we want to do. But this didn't work. And it was, unfortunately, you have to live through some things like that, to really realize what you don't want to do, and what's not going to work. So there was a bit of that in the first instance. And also, when the first few songs that we wrote, you know, having really young kids to try them on, as well was extremely valuable. You know, Bill's eldest child at the time was three, and we started with a toilet training song. And the rainbow song, they were one of the two of the first songs that we wrote. And they'll really taken very well and received very well by him. So, so then that gives you confidence to keep going. So yeah, having that immediate feedback from kids was really valuable. And it just sort of developed from there to be honest. Green roughly being beans, celery and apples, spinach, peas and lettuce, I. I am on my way. I mean, you've written to my favorite ones that the I'm the boss of mind, body, that's one that really gets stuck in my head. I really like that one. And you've written songs by song about COVID about staying home? Like do you basically look at what's happening? And what's important to you, and maybe look at your kids and see what's happening with them. And that's where your inspiration comes from? Yeah, has in the past the first three albums that we did useful, helpful, thoughtful songs, or little people, they were pretty much mostly, the ideas are sort of crowd sourced. So I mean, the first, the first, like the first step, and we came up with those things ourselves. And then the second two, we put a call out and we said to parents and educators and carers what, what what would be helpful to have songs written about, and they gave us lots of ideas, and people were really, really engaged with that, which was awesome. And lots of the same things started getting mentioned. So the ones that were repeatedly mentioned, were like, well, obviously, there's a huge need, and desire for a song about this. So then we just give it our best go at writing about that particular theme and, and I should sort of emphasize the fact that it's, yeah, it's the the lyrical process is a long process. And all the lyrics are very sort of, you know, scrutinized by by ourselves and so there's Yeah, it's not a it's not a quick job, the lyrics because you know, We also know that your lyrics are incredibly powerful and, and kids, in particular, listen to things on repeat. And again and again and again and again. You know, I'm an adult that listens to things on repeat to I got, I bought everyone around me with just watching their same movies and the same TV show that I, you know, I think for some people that gives a lot of comfort to, you know, repeatedly listen and watch and hear things. So, yeah, we're just we're just very much very aware of that. So we want to make sure that we put a lot of thought into them. Hmm, that's a really good point. Speaking of things being on repeat, I've had Hamilton the Hamilton musical only my car for about three years now. The other day, we finally saw the actual stage show. So that was nice. So now we've moved on to something else. But yeah, you had your flight? Yes, I've had the fix now. And it's funny because now I've seen the stage show that Australian actors do the nuances and the intervene to nation a slightly different and so now when I listened to the state the the I called Broadway, I'm like, Oh, that's not how it went. Jason era didn't do it like that. You know, everything. Yeah, the older days out. But I do that, too. I get fixated on things. Or the Beatles. I'm back on the Beatles now. Listen to this same album, but it never gets old. You just know it doesn't. They will never get out. Ever. Thank goodness. One male body, male body? I am. So with you guys with your singing with your harmonies and stuff, have you always just naturally like, I guess I'm comparing it to my sister and I like our voices is she's slightly lower than me and I go slightly higher, but in that general with both our toes, but I can go slightly up a bit. And so I've always just taken the higher harmony. Do you guys have like a? What's the word, a system or a method that works for you? I mean, I think when we were kids bill would always take the harmony just because she was always much better than me. I've been able to pitch in arrange harmonies, she's got a real real knack for it. But yeah, giving myself a bit of credit to as I've become an adult and also grown and developed, I think. Yeah, I think I think we're both pretty good at doing that now and and we both just, you know, take it into singing lead singing harmony. And it's really fun. Keeps it really interesting, huh? Do you guys have like, again, I'm comparing to myself like a sort of an invisible, like connection of communication when you're on stage, like, someone might move their eyebrow a little bit or look a certain way. And the other person goes, Oh, crap, that bit, you know, like you have this this way of communicating with each other without anyone really knowing. Yeah, I think so. Although, although, I've often told that I think that I'm smiling to my bandmates interview on stage. And then they go on stage saying that you're just looking at us like this the whole time. Like I've done something wrong. No, I was just smiling at you like I'm really having fun. So, so there is communication there. I'm not sure if we're really receiving the correct communication, but the other ones trying to communicate all the time. But we think we're communicating. But look, in terms of singing the actual, you know, the actual singing that we Yeah, we're, because we've been doing it for so long together. I think we're pretty good at predicting what the other one is going to do. And to be able to match each other and shadow each other and that type of thing. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't relate to that. It's like, sometimes when we've been performing like, we both start singing the tune or something. And for Amelie say it'll like literally a millisecond. And then it'll be like, Oh, she is in the hammock, like, and it's like, watching would ever get that we've just stuffed up. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. So quickly. And so intuitively. It's so much fun. I just like we did a wedding just the other week. And we hadn't been together for so long because of COVID. And just, I really pulled back from gigs, but we did this wedding and we're just sitting there. Obviously, it's so fun. You know, we've forgotten so lovely. And it was so great. Yeah, it was so lovely. It was a great was great fun. They had the the photo booth right next to us though, so it was like laughing and I'm like him as always on my left. I've got to have her in my left ear. I don't know why it's just a really, it's a quick that I have so I've tried to shut out this site and listen to her on so I'm sure why that's so nice that you said those things out loud. And you acknowledge the fact that it was really fun. Because it is. And I feel like I'm really guilty of not doing that enough. And I'm trying to do that a bit more. Over just yeah, really acknowledge and verbalize when something's really fun when you're really enjoying doing something with another person, so they know so they know that you're really enjoying this time that you're spending together. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But that doesn't make it easy. Nothing says everything. starts again. So back on to your your children. How many kids do you have? So we've got two kids. We've got a four year old and a nine month old. Oh, little tracker. Yeah. So yes. Again, back to you. Your stories on Instagram. How hard is it really traveling with the kids? Like, there was a funny, funny, one of like, pushing the pram and there's things hanging off every single like, on the frame? And, you know, that is that literally the realities of going on tour with the kids? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And look, we, I wouldn't say that we it's it for our collective kids to come away with us. Because as we can all hopefully agree, it's so hard to work and parent at the same time. And when you're trying to do both at the same time, inevitably, something something somewhere, you don't do it as good a job as you could, if you're not doing the two at the same time. So, so yeah, it's this year, my baby has come away with this a lot, because she's been so young, hopefully into the future. That won't necessarily be their regular thing. But again, you know, each each, every few months, you know, we sort of need to look at things again. And say and sort of went through all the different commitments that have come up. Because, you know, all the touring commitments that we've had this year has been a lot more intense than previous years. So and our circumstances have changed again, you know, family wise. So yeah, it's just a constant juggle and a constant. Yeah, just renegotiation? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because the children are always growing? Stages? Yeah, the needs are changing and what they what they're capable of, or what you're capable of doing with their mare. And, you know, yeah, it's always been, like constant reassessment. Yeah. Yeah. What I want to ask you about are not just on that for a change tab. So where have you Where have you been this year? So far? What what's you've been your sort of, I don't want to say your schedule, your tour schedule. You've been we have some places you've Oh, my gosh, we've been everywhere. We have been. We've been to most states this year already. And we're going and we're just continuing to do more over the next six, six to 12 months. So we've been all around New South Wales and Northern Territory went there for the first time this year, which was amazing. All around Victoria, South Australia. We're going all around Queensland, over January this year. So yeah, just just everywhere, and look, the nature of our music, because it's for kids and families. It's mostly weekend and school holiday work, where we do most of our touring. And look, because you know, my partner and I do very different things. So he has a weekday job, pretty standard office hours, and then I'm doing weekends and school holidays. That does work quite well. And I don't know, I just don't know how people who are working in the same industry. They manage exam time. Yeah. I mean, there's challenges to everybody. But that because I'm not living that. That experience. To me, that just seems huge. If you're competing for the same time. Yeah. Yeah, literally the same time to try and work. Yes, yeah. There'll be so many conflicts in schedules. And it's like, yeah, someone would have to have to sort of let things go, I guess at different times. It would be very challenging. Yeah, exactly. I have tripped up to some space. But human beings names they shall always leave to them. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was singing away from my dreams with your songwriting process? Like, do you just pick up ideas here, there and everywhere? And then come together with your sister and just bang it out? Or do you often like come to each other with, like, with a half done song, like, how do you sort of work in that way, it's a bit of everything, we often, because we're now living in different places, the, we don't often sit in a room together, and just create something from scratch, it'll be one of us coming up with an idea, you know, maybe a nearly finished one, or maybe just the beginnings of something, and then we just send it to the other person, the other person has their time with it, I send it back. And then when it's goes back and forth a few times, and then when it's, you know, pretty much in its fully formed song, or, you know, or book or whatever the thing is, then we'll get together and we'll just knock out the last little bit and just rehearse it up. So suppose in a state that we can perform it or you know, get the Voice Memo recording out and just do a acoustic recording on our phone. Imagine if we lost our phones. And imagine if we lost all the voice memos thinkable. It is unthinkable. And it's also think of all because it's like, how I don't it's like I barely know how to backup my computer, or what's on my phone onto my computer. So just Just don't be lost. Oh, what a disaster that would be. Oh, man, I was talking to a I had on my podcast the other day. It's not out yet. It will be seen. I recorded an episode. That's what I was meant to say, with as a songwriter. And we were joking about how you could be anywhere doing anything, and you'll get an idea. And until you've written that down or recorded that idea, you just cannot relax, like you're just in this state of, I'm going to forget it. I quickly have to do something with this. And you'd like she was joking. She's got all these little voice recordings if you're going in and new stuff. And then you listen to it later. And you've got to try and make sense of what your idea. Oh, I know. And to anyone else. Oh my gosh, it would be so embarrassing for someone else to just start listening to them all, online. All of mine start with this a standard tuning Capo one, five. This is what tuning Capo on blah. And it's just so it's just so boring to listen to. Do you ever wake up in the morning and have something in your head? No, no, that's never happened to me. A lot of people but no, not to me. I actually I love talking to musicians because I love it. I love it. Everybody has these, you know, all the different ways that they write or the different ways they get used. I just find it so fascinating. It's just fun. All right, well, I'll stop indulging myself. Yeah. That's great. I love I love hearing all of this, all of this stuff that you do yourself, too. It's so very interesting. It's so much fun. Love it, it is fun. And you know, on that, it's like when it stops being fun, then maybe that's, you know, that's usually the time that you got to change something, isn't it? Or maybe time to stop doing something and then start something else. Yeah, because, yeah, you definitely want there always to be an aspect of fun for that, and that's the thing, like when I said to my son, you know, you've got to you've got to do this every day. You don't want to literally wake up every morning and just go Oh god this again, you know, you want to be energized by what you do. And and if you're passionate about something, you know, if it's your your music or whatever you're doing that you're you're sharing that with people you know, I sort of feel like you've got this thing in you that you've managed to make into something and then sharing it with people is just the icing on the cake you know like she can wait to me she can't lie to me. I know some families back on to you being a mom. I like to talk to moms about the concept of their identity. So You know, you've always been a musician, singer songwriter doing your thing. When you became a mum? Did you? Did you really want to hold on to that part of your life? Did you feel like that was important? You weren't going to just go? Now my mom not going to do anything else? I'm just going to be mom. I mean, totally, I think, I think whether we care to admit it or not, we're all changed immensely when you have accused because your whole world changes. And that maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone's the same. But But yeah, for me, absolutely. I mean, your whole identity sort of changes. I mean, you know, in the first instance, all of a sudden, you go from being this independent person, who really, you know, if you've got a partner, and you know, you are thinking about him, to a degree and kind of do I mean, but you're still kind of two individuals. You know, doing life together, but there's still so much of that, that is separate and individual and independent from each other. But then when kids come on the scene, like, yeah, their needs, then it have to come first. And so, and that can be really hard to swallow. In terms of, you know, I really, there are still things that we all want to do. So fulfill us and to fulfill our own needs. And just sometimes, yeah, and often, you just can't do that. So yeah, definitely. And also just, you know, all the sort of the biggest sort of society, the society, sorry, societal things, you know, of becoming a mom and, and some things to do with gender as well, all of this stuff changes, you know, sometimes, and you can often work out how you feel about it, or actually work out what's going on at the time, but it doesn't feel right. And it can take some time to sort of explore those things and work out where you are, and how it's affecting you and what it is what it actually is to be able to verbalize what the thing is. I'm not sure if any of that made sense. Gosh, it is. Yes. And that's where I was leading you to because I look, I've spoken to a few members on this show. I've got to be careful how I ask questions, because I assume that everybody feels sometimes feels the same way that I did. And I've spoken to some mums who have just gone. No, I just went, I'm going to be mum, that's great. And I just went, that wasn't me. Yeah. You know, and so I've got to be careful how I don't want to ask leading questions. But I did lead you into that, because I had a feeling you'd say that. Yeah, well, I mean, I, yeah, gosh, the idea of? No, I definitely, I'd say definitely the person, a type of person who likes to have a good balance of both. I'm just happy, I'm just a happier person, if I'm also doing unstuff. Otherwise, I just get too cranky. Allison, too cranky. And I don't I don't like listening to myself. I can totally relate to that. I think I'm just a happy presence for everyone. If and it's funny, like, you know, both my partner and I, we acknowledge that and and say those things out loud. And it really has to be like, Okay, we have to we have to let each other do these things that we want to need to do to various degrees so that when we're when we're coming back and interacting with the rest of the family, you know, we're out of the we're close to the best versions of ourselves. Absolutely otherwise said that. Otherwise, there's too much resentment. Hey, that can just simmer up very quickly. Yeah, that's the word that I can definitely relate to is that resentment is just Yeah, and I'm not saying that in a negative like, God, I feel like I've got to justify everything I say now. But you know, I love my children. I love being a mom. But I also love doing things that I love to do that don't involve my children, you know? Oh, definitely. And that's, there shouldn't be any shame in saying. No, exactly. And here's the thing, right? We feel we feel guilty saying anything like that. Of course we love our kids. Yeah, of course. We love them. I love mine. Immensely. When I'm not with them. I miss them. And then when I'm too often, they can drive me absolutely nuts. Yep. I mean, and then yeah, and then I feel guilty about that. And then it's just crazy. And then and then you can't fully enjoy the time when you're away from them. Because you have all these feelings too. And then, you know, and then yeah, you're missing them a little bit. You're like, What is wrong with me? is wrong. It is just this perpetual thing isn't it's like we cannot escape it. Whether we're with them or without them. There's some element of guilt that We feel it's just, ah, it's horrible. I know it's huge. And yeah, you start to then see your own parents in a different light to realize that, oh, they probably felt all of these things, too. Yeah. Maybe I should have been more kind to them. You get new appreciation? Yeah, maybe I should be less judgmental of my parents. It is it is an interesting science lesson. But it's an interesting experience to be an old to be older and have your own children and look back on your parents with so much compassion. You think my God, you know, that what? You know, I don't know. I think we're so hard on ourselves. And everyone's just doing the best that they can with what they've got at the time. And yeah, you know, give me a break. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, cuz Yeah, mom guilt is something that I do like to chat to all my moms about. And I have had two people in this last week was the 78th episode that went out to mums. Wow, that have said they don't know what it is. They had to google it. And I was like, Yes, this should be all of us. We should not even have this word, you know? Yeah. And I feel like, you know, a lot of the people I talk to sort of share the view that, that it's this, the it's the external judgment, and the external societal norms or expectations placed upon us and making us feel this way, you know, if we just mothered the way we wanted to, and didn't feel this pressure, we wouldn't feel guilty because we'd be doing what we wanted with you. No, no. No, external helps. It helps to move your arms does help. You know, you know me. Ah, yeah. And social media. I think it's just been, it's got a lot a lot to answer for when it comes to this judgment of each other and things like that. It's yeah, totally. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many great things and so many bad things, that social media, it's to have it, it's a hard, hard balance to get a feel. With social media. Yeah. Because most of the mums I speak to are on there for you know, their art sharing their work, or, you know, they're for business. So yeah, you sort of feel like you've got to be on there. But then it's interesting to the last few people I've spoken to have been really had some, you know, the great advice, which should be obvious, but sometimes when other people say things, you notice it more than if you thought it yourself, but you know, only following people that make you feel good. You constantly see someone come up and they they trigger something in you don't keep looking at them. I know. It's such a simple thing. But yeah, so simple and so obvious. But why do we Why do we find ourselves doing it? I don't know. Yeah, it's a funny, funny world. Imagination tell me they're under my bed when worries come in and like wave rushing up to my, my superpower. It's essential that you have your support network in whatever way that you need that support. I'm sure that support comes in different forms for each individual and each family and each household. But, yeah, I mean, personally, I certainly feel very appreciative. And I was I was thinking in the car the other day and thinking how I would say this, and answer this question. If it came up with going, I don't think I feel lucky. I feel nervous using the word lucky because I feel like the insinuation is that I've had nothing to do with it. You know, if I say I feel lucky to have a partner that I do, I feel very appreciative. Because we certainly, I think we're doing okay, and again, ebbs and flows, I think we're going doing all right, you know, so far of trying to let each other you know, flourish kind of professionally and sort of try and really strive for those things that we want to do outside of having kids and parenting, which is so important. I think if I felt like I was just battling, you know, against someone or really trying to fight for time, all the time, and vice versa. That's not conducive to being creative at all. So yeah, that's really important. And I think everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year. Everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful. You know, so and that's, you know, partner, SR manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And, and for that to be successful. So, yeah, that's, that was the thought that I had driving for hours yesterday in the car. Yeah. And I think it to being able to ask for what you want and make your needs clear that this is not going to work for me, or this is what I need to make myself comfortable here like not being afraid to speak, speak up, I suppose. Definitely. And yes, to be really clear about those expectations that you have of each other, and, and to have those high standards of each other. I think, you know, to have those high standards, and to have those, you know, a level of expectation, and also to communicate the expectations that you have of each other as well, because, gosh, if we, if we assume too much, we're generally wrong, or incorrect in our assumptions that we make. So we may as well just talk about it and clear it all out from the get go. So everyone's on the same page. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because I feel like, as much as you know, you, you're obviously, you know, we're attracted to our partners for a particular reason. That's great. We love them. But those people are still different to us. And I feel like, I know what I do is, you know, for example, in a situation, I'd do something this way, and I can't assume that my partner would do that. I've got to go, actually, what would you do? I've got to ask him stuff. Because I've learned over the years, we're very different in certain areas. And there's and when you assume you make an asset of you and me, so yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Third, ask Allison. Yeah. Yeah, I can play. Yeah, exactly. I agree. I think it's, it's just yeah, it's just so beneficial to just be really clear about what you want. You might not get what you want. Where you stand and ask for something. They won't be surprised because they know that's where you're hitting with things. And there's nothing up for interpretation. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No mixed messages. Yeah, I had Adam Paige who's a South Australian. He's from Adelaide. He's a musician. And he said, when they had kids, he had to set like, literally have the conversation. This is what I need. From my music. This is what I need from this man. I should say also, that was Father's Day episode. Yes. Yes. Sorry. randomly say there's been a man on my show. That's a bit. Oh, no, I mean, it sounds great. I will get through all 70 episodes. Wow. Very impressive. You said you're up to the 70th episode. My goodness. It's a huge achievement look, honestly, I'm gonna say it again. It's just good fun. I just love doing it. I love talking to moms I love you know, chatting about stuff and sharing stuff and and I love the beat afterwards where you edit and stuff. I love doing that. So it's you know, it's a win win. That's great. Okay, doing at least peppers, strawberries, beets, rhubarb, and berries. Green, green, green. broccoli, beans, celery and apples. Spinach. Peas and lettuce. What do you got coming up the rest of the year? You said you you're still you still touring? Are you? Are you ever coming to mount Gambia? Just Well, I'm, I've got you. Gosh, I don't know, we probably will at some stage. But I can't for the life of me. Recall all of the places that we're going because there's too many. Which is actually awesome. I actually love that. That's always been a dream, you know, to just be able to to so much. But look what's coming up. I mean, we're about to we are we've, we've got so we've always got so many things on the go, which is great. We've got more books coming out. We've been very fortunate to be able to start writing and publishing some books, which is sort of based and expanded on from our songs. Obviously more touring. We've got some new music coming out towards the end of the year in preparation for Christmas time. And, yeah, I'm trying to think Is there is there anything else there's just there's just always stuff. There's always projects, and that's what I love. And, and that's yeah, that's the thing that we're hooked on. We just you just got to keep making projects for yourself, don't you? Because if you don't do it, if you don't initiate them yourselves, no one else is gonna initiate them for you. So funny I was in. I was in the shower yesterday. I get so many I don't know about you. But when I'm in the shower, it's like a portal opens up and I think of everything ever in the world. It's this Yasha thing. I'm in the shower and I'm thinking oh my god He's, I don't want to do this. And once he did, and then I got out the shower and went, Oh, but first I have to go make some school lunches and back to reality. Yeah, I'm gonna do all those jobs that actually make the day sort of just run successfully and smoothly. Oh, it was it was it was like one of those moments where it was just like a slap on the face like, yeah, you'd have to actually look after your children. You shouldn't do right. All those things download just so you don't forget them. I do. I'm an intense note writer, like I have to write down so often. I'll just like record voice messages in my phone for later. Oh, great. Yeah. There's probably quite a lot I've never really listened to. But I think if you're writing all those things down, then you're one step closer to actually achieving them than someone who doesn't. It sort of just forget tangible doesn't it's like yeah, actually, it's on a list. So it means it's, you're gonna keep thinking about it and keep, you know, well, it's all part of just making yourself accountable in a way. Yeah, it's the first step really? Yeah. Yep. Not the boss and many things. I'm just little and still learning. But I am the boss one thing. I'm not the boss of anyone else. I gotta let them be themselves. But I am the boss of one. Look, thank you so much for coming on, Beth. It's just so lovely to meet you and to chat with you. Everything keep doing what you're doing, because I think what you guys bring to the space is really important. And it does open up conversations, which is obviously that's your aim, and you're doing it beautifully. So thank you and say hi to your sister for me tell her I love her on it. I will it never gets old. Her hearing that people actually find what she does funny. If she could just mention a couple more times, you know, playing at the Opera House, that'd be good. I'm not sure if everyone's got the memo yet. I know it's too funny, isn't it? And hopefully, hopefully we do get to neck Gambia at some time or somewhere you know, you know somewhere close will if you do you know I'll be stalking you at the stage door. Oh yeah, I love that. Absolutely love that and funny. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Alicia Lis Verso Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep01 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome to my new podcast. I am thrilled to have you here! My first guest is Alicia Lis is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter & guitarist, high school teacher, and a mum of 2 boys. We chat about how she manages the different 'compartments' in her life, how important support is from others and the importance of modelling hard work to her children. Alicia Soundcloud / Youtube / Instagram Podcast instagram / website Alicia's music used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. got a hold of me and my guest today is Alicia verso who goes by the stage name Alyssa Liz. She is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter, and guitarist. Welcome to the podcast, Alicia. Thank you so much, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here part of your podcast and your very first one too. Yeah, so exciting. This is this is great. Thank you for being here. So for those who may not be familiar with you Angel music, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, what can I say I'm mature age. And I'm just like me and I'm 40 I'm actually few days shy of 41. And I'm just after a really long break getting back into the music industry. I started studying when I was you know, sort of straight out of high school, studied music and had you know, high hopes and ambitions to to write music record it which I did start doing and gigging and I started doing that, you know, started doing both gigging with a, you know corporate duo slash trio. And also also with my original music with a with another artists that I met at, at TAFE we would do you know, our own stuff together. And she played bass I play guitar. And yes, I took a took a long break. And so really, my my music is to start off with was very contemporary, kind of, you know, sort of you think back in the early sort of 2000s It was very much like indie type bands where, you know, a lot of the music and listening to were musicians that play their own instruments that wasn't there was sort of starting to merge using electronic looping but not as much waves I love Joel are crowded house, Pete Murray, just trying to think I loved you too, back then. Yeah, just a lot of a lot of those types of that genre. And then when I started studying, it was very much a fusion of jazz and blues with a little bit of contemporary element to it. But that overdoing like going to VCA or you know, studying classical, yeah, that is, you know, you know, how can you not, you know, two years of studying that got quite influenced with jazz and blues and so there was like, one of my songs that were quite heavily influenced the shape up with that genre. And, and so, yes, I've kind of got a little bit of that influence now. But a lot of the stuff that I've written was 15 years ago, and so now I'm, you know, looking now forward to start writing some new material. So that's kind of being a bit of a challenge to find the time. So you and I first met on Instagram a few months ago, through and online Stage Door singing competition, which you won. Congratulation mask. Fantastic. And then you also had some success recently with your song shape up which won the June competition on radio Easterns Talent Search. Congratulations on that too. You've won a bit of a roll at the moment. No, absolutely. And three's a charm. I'm wondering what number three is going to be? To buy a lotto ticket maybe. So tell us a little bit about your family, then you kids and that kind of thing? Yeah, well, I've got two boys. I was actually just talking to Harvey this morning. I had I had a vivid dream, and I never have them. And I was pregnant. In my dream. So I was like, no, no. Unless, unless, you know can be I can audits a girl. But still, I'm done and dusted. So two boys, Max is going to be 11 in a bit over a week. And I've got Jackson, there's a bit of an age gap between the two who's five, almost five and a half. And so both at school, which is great. And so I've got hubby as well, who's really super supportive of my, my aspirations on on, you know, taking a leap into back into the music industry. For myself. And yeah, we've been together for over 2020 years now, I think 2322 23 years, something like that. That's great. You see music a little not at all. So I'm a bit of a lone wolf in the family. None of my boys have been really super interested in music ALA. Yeah. You never know. So that that style of competition the stage or being all online, did you find that that really suited you with the kids being at home? Or are you finding a bit easy to get out? More these days? Look, I really, I enjoyed it being at home. And like, with like me saying my husband's very supportive. He, he really, if I need to, like even just for this afternoon, if I really need them out of my hair, you'll either you know, take them out like he has today or if you know, obviously when we're in COVID We couldn't you know, he just made sure he just keep him sort of occupied. Yeah, look either ways. Fine. Like I know, I did have a gig in May. And so that was, you know, that was fine too. He's happy to stay home and look after them. He's really good. But yeah. As long as I just said right, this is what I communicate with him and say this is what's happening. This is my cut off. This is what I need to do. This is sort of roughly how much time we just kind of you no work he just helped with working around that with me. That's so good. That's so important, yeah. So obviously, you've you've talked a little bit about your life before you had children. Your music was a really big part of your life. It was you've studied your work as a music teacher delve into a little bit more about was it always your dream to do music? Sort of how many how many hours we you'd be out of the house doing your gigs? Was it it? Was it like almost a full time sort of commitment to music? Or kids? Yeah, definitely. I mean, with the study, being immersed in it. I even my part time job was at JB Hi Fi so it was a big? Yeah, I would have to say even with my spare time on weekends, I would spend that year rehearsing either for the, for my, you know, the corporate duo, or even with my friend as well. So or, you know, or weekday, because when I had time during the week when I was at uni, so yeah, it was pretty much like night and day it was yeah, all about all about music beforehand. I didn't really take music sort of seriously up until very late high school. So until I was in VCE. And it was like yeah, this is what I want to do halfway through year 11. Though I did pick up my guitar and start learning from the age of 15. But then voice came later. Yeah. Yeah. But before that I wanted to become an actress. Yeah, right. Either and all that. And I got really crappy crappy marks. And I was just absolutely shattered. I'm certain that that I can't. I'm not made for this, obviously. So enter music now that was yeah, that became my passion. Yeah, yeah. So when you were pregnant with your first child, did you sort of find performing wise was a bit more challenging obviously, as your body was changing. I know I had a lot of issues with breathing, I struggled with struggle to work out how to breathe properly, my diaphragm while I had a baby sitting on sort of find that sort of stuff, or how do you go with it, I stopped Well, before I got pregnant, because once I started teaching full time, I just thought I'll do teaching. And that can kind of be sort of, you know, something that I do while I, I, you know, try and do my music on the side. But once I started full time, forget it. Like it just really took over my life. And so about a year and a half after teaching was when I felt pregnant. And I remember when my firstborn was six months old, I was taking in that. And the guy, this guy, Chris, that we used to do the duo with him, he called me and I was in the middle of having my nap while my son was having it. And I was just completely bombed out. And he's like, Oh, hey, guy wanted to see what I was up to. And I'm just like, Oh, I've just I've had it. I'm just like, Oh, I'm so tired. I just, you know, it was just like, there was just no thought in my mind at any time soon to get back into any sort of like singing or, you know, in music, you know? Just wasn't on the radar. Not on the radar. No, hit me like a ton of bricks having the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a lot of support around you at that time? Do you have your family in in Melbourne with you or I had my mum is as well as my hobby. My mum is so super supportive, like even now. I see her every week. And even now that I'm full time work, and she's retired, she'll come, you know, one day a week and to kind of give me a hand around the house, let's say, yeah, really, really good. And yeah, she's also supportive of what I'm doing as well. So yeah, even with that support, I was just like, yeah, just exhausted. But yeah, no, it wasn't till a couple of years later that I Yeah, there was there was reasons why. I wasn't I wasn't 100% Well, I wasn't sure what was going on. Because I know I'd go to mothers groups, and, you know, the mums, you know, we all say we're tired and all that sort of stuff. But the mum still had like energy to go out for coffees and things and I just be like, Nah, I just don't have that energy. And I thought there's something a bit not right, you know, like, why am I just so exhausted at all I can be bothered to do is just take care of my kid and just not have that energy to do anything else. You know, muster the energy to go to, to mother's grief, and even that was like, a chore for me too. And so I remember going to the doctor's because I'd get quite sick quite often, and it would take a really long time to shake off at cold. He said, we'll do a bit of a test for you. Like, you know, like, I'll ask you some questions and I didn't know what he was wearing. He's getting at but he was asking me some questions and and he kind of gave me a little number out of a number. I don't know if it was at a 10 or whatever. And he said, oh look, you kind of like borderline you've got anxiety and a bit of postnatal depression, but it's not. It's not extreme, but it's you know, it's there. And sometimes that can have an impact, you know, on your well being and also your, your immune system and so, okay, so I got like, one of those those six packs, we get like the six free canceling sessions. Yeah, yep. Yeah. So I went to those and, and look, it was good. It was good to talk to someone and but I was still very tired. And then with more tests, and I don't know, there was something I read in a book. And it was cat it was about Candida and Candida albicans which is when you have Have an overgrowth of the bad bacteria in the stomach versus your good bacteria? Yeah, that can just throw everything out of whack your immune system and you're constantly tired, because I remember I would find it really difficult to, you know, to sleep as well. And it was kind of linked all the way back to also when I realized now when I had Max, my first that I was, I had an intravenous antibiotic when just before I had him and I think that that massive amount of antibiotics that was pumped into me, just completely ruined my gut bacteria. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just like in this, like, like, my head was in the clouds for like two years until I finally realized what it was because I saw so many doctors that when I went to a nap, I went to a naturopath, this time that specialized in it. Like, right, yep. did another test to confirm it. I think it was a saliva test. And that confirmed that I had really high levels of the Candida and he's like, right got me on a Candida diet, which was cutting out all sugar or dairy or weight. It was nuts. It was first month, I was even more exhausted. And I was like, what's going on? I should be feeling better. And I said know what it is. It's all the Candida that's dying off. And it's actually pouring out all the toxins in your body. It's releasing it, but your body's not obviously not getting rid of it fast enough. So yeah, this is one thing after the other. But my God probably took me about a good year. I've kind of feel like I was normal again. Yeah, right. Yeah. So there was just like, I was just in survival mode. Yes, literally living living day to day just was to do Yeah, it was a really crap. And it was like, I was back at work just two days a week because that's all I could do. And even the days I was at work, I was just in a in like, like a daydream. I don't know, I don't even know I just functioned it's and I think because of that. I've put a lot of pressure on my adrenal glands as well. So everything was just all over the place. So I think that's why I had such a big gap because my after getting over that I just My aim was if I was going to have another child, I'm going to be the healthiest that I can be so that when I do have another child, I'm not going to have to go through all that again. So after you had Jackson then how was your health then? Ah, heaps heaps better. Um, I had lost because I put on 20 kilos my first so I've lost all of that. I'd actually stayed off the wheat and the dairy and the sugar because I found when I went back on it again, I got the Candida but I knew the signs and then I was like, right, go back onto the Candida diet again. So now I don't leading up to the pregnancy and even now I don't have wheat. I don't very it's I cut back. Like I don't have sugar. It's very rare. And dairy I still have a bit of that on my health was so so good. energy levels were a lot better. Weight was a lot was better. I'd still do put weight on and just the way my body is when I'm pregnant. And I had a natural birth. I didn't have any I was like no, no, no, they wanted to pump antibiotics into me again or like not not having it. Especially after what I went through last time so yeah, it was heaps heaps better. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. Stuck between your two boys after you did start to feel better after that sort of year afterwards. Did you? Did you look back into your music? I did, actually. But it took a complete sideward turn in that when Max was about three. So when I started feeling better, I was taking him to mini maestro's. I don't know if you've you've probably have many monasteries in South Australia In Australia wide. Yeah, I have heard of it. Yeah. So it's like a little preschool music program. and fill up for toddlers. And I was typing into that. And then I was taking him to another, another mothers group that was just run by us. And so all the activities were based on, you know, whatever we sort of come up with. And so I was like, Well, how about you know, like, you know, some some days, I'd bring in my guitar, and we can sing some songs. And then I started going, Well, why don't we make something Arty, something crafty. And then we can use that in the songs and get them moving. And then with that, I kind of come up with this concept called Creative tots, Australia, which is infusing new music, movement, and crafts, and started developing lessons, creating songs on GarageBand. So, you know, using my music background, as well as my educational background, as well. And, you know, made a logo, so had a professional logo made, I had a website made, I've still got the Facebook page up, which is one of the links in my Instagram, on my Instagram, LinkedIn, bio. And, yeah, I've bought instruments and asked and, like, everything that I needed, or my materials and, and stuff to promote myself. And I started going to, to like other play groups and saying, hey, you know, I've got this, this new this program, would you like me to come in and, you know, give it a trial. And, you know, give me some feedback on what you think, went to the local library and did the same thing. And I actually repainted carpet in my garage to make it into a space and I kind of went to audit all the foundational stuff. And I fell pregnant with Jackson. So yeah, I've got puppets on this one hand puppets as well. So like, yeah, I've got all everything's in the garage. Yeah. Everything's still there. But that's something another project that I'm gonna get to. It's sort of like it's waiting. They're just ready for you to pick it up when you're ready. Yeah, when I'm ready, not ready yet. There's a few things I want to do first, before I go back to it, that thing that I want, again, I did professional development as well. So there's another program by they're very well known in Melbourne. They do educational stuff for schools, books and music for pre pre schools and primary schools. I don't know if you'd call it a hood. Susie, and Phil Davis split up. Music is their program. So yeah, so I did a couple of professional development courses with them. So I put a lot into it in that sort of, yeah, three to two to three years. But before Yeah, I fell pregnant with Jackson. Like I was even about to do another course with them. When I was probably about booked in seven months, and got to seven months, it was in January, which is really warm up and I was like, Nah, I can't do it too much. So yeah, so yeah, definitely back in the music, but more in a different different way. Yeah. Fine doing that. That you you met your own need, you know, being involved in music. Did you sort of feel like you might have been helping the mums to like, did you see it as but you were also giving something back? To your community, I suppose. And helping mums? Yeah, yeah, I did. Actually, I actually. What else did I do? I was also ending the classes with meditation because I was in into the meditation at the time to incorporated that. And yeah, one of the mums in did mention that. She's like, I've never seen my child so relaxed, like that. Good way to kind of, you know, because you've raised them up was a good way to kind of settle them down and bring them down the end of the lesson. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you're giving some of these kids might not have had any sort of exposure to music and instruments and that kind of stuff before so yes, that's fantastic, too. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We talked a bit about support early you've got your husband and your mom within your own sort of work circle at the moment or your your colleagues your music, sort of circle. Do you have any others around you that share this sort of motherhood slash music experience, or do you find It's not really that anyone, I feel very isolated actually. Yeah, that I'm in my faculty is very small. So I've only got one other colleague who teaches music and she has no children. Look, actually, my instrumental teachers are actually no, I've got two that that have got children. I don't know, of one of them, my vocal coach, she, she's got, she's got one son, a young son, I haven't actually, you know, sat down and spoken with her. So this might be a really good thing to kind of open up with them. They, you know, how they, how they cope with their creativity, and yeah, balancing that with with kids. But otherwise, you know, like, I've got the downhill performance coaching that I've been part of, since October, August, sorry, August of last year. And I'm actually the oldest, it's sort of me. And then 25 is the next eldest, and then it's like, 19, and all the way down to eight. So even the teachers, they none of them have got kids. So I feel very isolated, even within that, that sort of performance coaching family that I'm part of as well. Yeah, it's interesting isn't like, you can be a part of something and share something so strong, but then that with them lacking that experience of of being a parent, because it can create quite a separation, I guess, at different types. Have you found sort of any times where, and even through your work that people just don't get it? When you're a mom and you need, you might need to change something or do something because your kids need you? Like, people don't understand they sort of, because they don't, they don't have children? They don't get it. They're like, Oh, really? Like, have you found that happen at all? No, not really, actually. I think most people are pretty good. And if if they haven't got children, they've got you know, close family members that have got young children, and they're quite understanding of seeing how they travel, you know, and how hard it is for them. Look, it's completely different when you've got your own like, you can't compare but you know, I think most of being pretty good. Let's take six and I am not your SWANA. So we've raised the topic, this concept of mum guilt that that phrase that society is created for us. How do you feel about that? The mum guilt and Yeah, funny that because I was at a podcast, a live podcast on Thursday night. It was filmed. I don't know if you've heard of the Melbourne housewives? Sure. Have you heard of Jackie Gillies? Yeah, I actually I saw your your Instagram post and I was jealous. I was hurt because Julia Maurice was on there was interviewed a Jackie Gillies was interviewing Julia Morris and Julia Morris, who is, you know, in the show beers, and she's got two kids of her own. And Jackie was interviewing her and asking her about, you know, how do you find the balance? And she's like, hard work hard works work times work. So there's no bloody difference. And she's like, do you get guilty you know, being off working, especially with the gig she's got at the moment with I'm A Celebrity Get celebrity out of here because she she goes overseas for that down South Africa. And she said, You know what I used to she goes, I just think guilt is bullshit. And you shouldn't have to put that on yourself. And it's taken me until I'm 53 to kind of realize that so it was like for me, it was really good to hear someone else it's almost like it validates your own feelings when you hear somebody else say it. Yeah, so you know what? It goes I used to come home and go Oh, give me you know, lots of cuddles a year worth of colors that I missed. And she said I don't do that anymore. I just come in and slip into the way like as if I hadn't been away for such a long time, you know, not make such a big deal out of it. So it was really good to hear that because hoes, I do. I do feel guilty, especially, you know, when I'm out. I'm out on a Monday night. I've gotten another lesson on a Tuesday. Or, you know, if I'm doing some recording here for my, for my music, and that's like time thinking that's time precious time I could be with my kids. So I do feel guilty about that, you know? Does that come from yourself? Or do you feel judgment from society or others? Yeah, I definitely think it's from myself because I'm someone who's very have a lot of high expectations. So I kind of feel like, you know, I knit with the time that I've got, especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go to work. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you? You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry. Don't stress ratio. Are you here ratio? Me? Yeah. Do you did kids have that? Do they get into music? Like they know that you're doing music do that? Are they interested in like, do they come to gigs or anything like that? No. Look, I'd love to one day when I suppose I don't look I've asked Max and if he wanted to come to come to them and he's like, nice he's not really too interested. Like that's my eldest because he's you know, to kind of sit still and not you know, muck around and run around the room. Oh, my youngest would come in in a heartbeat. I think there's one thing that does make me guilty more so with my youngest is that he every time I'm out, he'll say I miss you mom. I miss you. I missed you all the time. It's nice a stabs I feel like I have to you know cuz I'm just like, oh, no, you poor little thing. Oh, dear. They're lovely. Identity, obviously when when you're not a mum, you can be anything you want. And then you become a mother and and do you have this? Is a this concept of being more than I don't want to say just a mum because that's not true that we are so much more than just a mum. But do you feel like it's important to you to maintain your own identity outside of being a mum, so maintain? You're a singer, you're a wife, your teacher or that kind of thing? Is that something that's important? Yeah, I'm actually really good at compartmentalizing different parts of my life. Like, you know, when I'm a mum, and a mom and sometimes even like that, I could be doing things with the boys and I'm guilty of you know, being on social media, which is really bad. And but yeah, I'm pretty good. Like when I'm at school, I'm teaching mode when I'm at home. You know, Mum, wife mode, and when I'm doing my music staff, it's yeah, it's I'm musician Alyssia. You know, the less the less so I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing? Is that why you chose to have a stage name to separate the two worlds for yourself? Yeah, yeah. Just to separate the mum, I'd know the me to yeah, having something separate, to identify as, yeah. Do you think? Do you kids sort of are they aware of what you're creating? Like they they see that, that you're making music that you know, and do you want them to, to know that to sort of show them that mums can still do things, I guess? Yeah, that's a good question. No, they definitely know for sure. And they know it's a big part of my life. Like even yesterday. I was part of the Dan Hamill performance photo shoot for their for their marketing. They do every sort of three to six months and We were out in the city and I got them to come with me, so that they could see where I'm coming everywhere I go every week. Yep. And my eldest is like, ah, kind of on the way out in the city every week, because he Yeah, I do. So it's, it's good for them to see that good for them to see. I think it's a really good lesson for them to save you, you know, that you've got to put the hard work in to you know, to get to set your rewards. That nothing comes easy. And you do what you have to do. To get, you know, what it is that you want. I think that's like really important. Like, you can be, you know, get the best grades. But really, I think when it comes down to it, it's got to do with hard work and dedication. So I hope that they they see that they see that and then one day, that kind of brushes off on them. Yeah. Yeah, but ya know, they definitely, they definitely do know what I'm doing and, you know, keep them in the loop. I don't know how much they really sort of care. But I know I've the funniest thing I'll tell you there was one of my showcases, when we're in lockdown last year, I obviously had to film it online. And I'm all done up with you know, red lipstick because I was and massive eyelashes and dressed up. And I walked out from the bathroom to my study. And past all the boys and Mexico's my eldest, Pam, you look ridiculous. And then my youngest goes for Mum, you look really beautiful mum looks like creatchi just funny the dynamics. See what I do to you know, to put on you know, dressing up or part of it to put on a you know, a show or performance. That's gorgeous. My little one he often say that and say Ma'am, you look beautiful, and just sort of put my dressing gown on and I feel like rubbish. But he's there to pump me up. He's a good little fella. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to share any sort of any further sort of thoughts on any issues that we might not have? chatted about so far. I just I don't know, I suppose it's just the creating that balance. Because for me, it's always a massive, massive struggle, especially now that I'm working full time to find that balance. I'm really, really good at multitasking, but it's forever keeping. I feel like I'm always floating above water and be a bit lovely to know what others are doing. But just floating above water, to find that balance of time for myself for my music, for work, my work demands that I have demands as a mom. And I think the one thing I've learnt is that if you can have at least one or two people like I do that are really supportive and willing to help out like that's everything, you know, like I wouldn't really be able to do all this without the small support network that I've got, which is my mom and my husband. And any for anyone listening like it doesn't have to be a partner or a mountain, it could be an auntie or could be a really good friend or, you know, as long as you've got someone that you can be there to kind of take a bit of a load off or to help out so that you've got that time. Like even last year, in lockdown what kept me sane and sort of helped with time was we had a living or pair. We had someone who lived I mean, we had less space in the house. But I had an extra hand. So that helped as well. So it could be anything really Yeah, find find what works, what works for you get that balance to find that time to do everything is being pulled in all these different directions and you've got a sort of like you said before, I think that idea of sort of putting things into little compartments and trying to keep things separate. That's that's a really good idea. Yeah. So what do you have coming up in the future Alicea in the future because I have never formally released anything. That's a plan that I've got Within the next sort of six to 868 months so working with my current vocal coach she's got a plan put in place some goals over the next six months so one is well, you know writing up the setlist bio. Also going to record some new music, which I did mention earlier and use that pack that I that I got from the stage door comm to on that and get the video to go with, with the song that I can release and some, some a couple of professional photos that I can use for the release. And do a she wants me to do a launch show as well. So if not at the end of the year, maybe early next year. That's very exciting. Yeah. So you can find this year's original music on SoundCloud and YouTube and follow her on Instagram and all the links will be in the episode description. Thank you so much for being on today. Lisa, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been a pleasure. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic

Holly Norman Australian professional musician + wellbeing practitioner S3 Ep81 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a musician and wellness pracitioner from Perth WA and a mum of 1. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to big band jazz records at home, and early on she was listening regularly to classic swing and big band – Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11, a self confessed, late starter Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed-in-the-wool classical percussionist and back then you couldn’t have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid-twenties, Holly realised that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her, if she moved over to drums. As a musician Holly has worked with the likes of The Cat Empire. Ash Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra Symphony Orchestras. She released her own EP of original songs in 2013 called Hollypop , recently released a single called It's Only Weather in late 2022, and has a new song out now, called Isolation , written about the covid-19 lockdown periods experienced over the past couple of years. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager, working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz festival, Perth PRIDE Parade, and Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's also a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional/postural support to play their instrument, so Holly developed the Yoga for Drummers session. She is really passionate about keeping musicians safe and ensuring longevity in the industry. This episode contains discussion around miscarriage and loss. Connect with Holly - instagram / website / facebook Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Holly's music is used throughout today's episode, with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoy honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to another episode of the podcast is a pleasure to welcome you from wherever you are in the world. Whether this is your first episode, or your at first, thank you so much for being along for the ride. I've just come back from a week away with the family in a city called Ballarat, which is about three hours away from where I live here, Matt, Gambia. It's over in Victoria and it was lovely to be out of my own space somewhere completely different enjoying the sunshine, swimming, being a tourist and sightseeing and spending a lot of time with the family. Although the car trips with the two boys in the back, were always a bit of fun and the huge pile of washing that we've accumulated. Now that we're home is also great. I'm sure many of you can relate. But nevertheless, today I'm very excited to welcome Holly Norman to the podcast. Holly is a percussionist a singer, a songwriter and musician from Perth in Western Australia, and she's a mom of one. When Holly was growing up, her dad used to listen to Big Band jazz records at home. And early on, Holly was listening regularly to classic swing and big bands such as Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, and Louis Armstrong and so on. At the age of 11. A self confessed late starter, Holly took up the drums. She went through high school and university as a dyed in the wool classical percussionist, and back then you couldn't have paid her to get behind a drum set. Once she started playing in bands in her mid 20s. Holly realized that there was a whole world of music that could become accessible to her if she moved over to the drums. So that's what she did. As a musician, Holly has worked with the likes of the cat empire, Ash, Grunwald, the Australian String Quartet, and the West Australian and Canberra symphony orchestras. Holly's also released in a piece of her own work, entitled Holly pop, which is available through Bandcamp. And you can find that through the link in the show notes. Holly spent 10 years as an event producer and arts manager working on some amazing projects like the Melbourne International Jazz Festival, the Perth Pride Parade and the Perth International Jazz Festival. Holly is also passionate about health and wellness, practicing yoga for over 15 years and she's now a yoga teacher. Musicians need so many different types of mobility, and functional and postural support to play the instrument. So Holly developed the yoga for drummers sessions, which can be found via the link in the show notes. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and loss. The music you'll hear on today's episode is from Holly herself. There's a little bit of holly solo on her piano self accompanied and with her behind the drum set for her jazz quartet. Thanks again for tuning in. It's a pleasure to be with you and I hope you enjoy my chat with Holly. name is Deanna Manzi. Season seems to be thanks so much for coming on today, Holly. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks you for having me. Yeah, it's a real pleasure. So we were just chatting before we hit record that you're in Perth and the massive time difference between Perth and the rest of Australia. So it's 12 o'clock here. What time? Is it over there? It's 9:30am. Yes, it's a three hour time difference in summer. Yeah, that's yes. Yeah, it is. Yeah. We just got back from Canberra a couple of days ago. So my husband's family lives there. So we spent Christmas there. And yeah, luckily, it actually didn't hit us too hard with the sort of body clock adjustment for my daughter who's two and a half. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was expecting it to be more of a pain. But as soon as she got back in bed, she just has slept like a dream. So that's really nice, actually. Yeah, yeah, that's a consideration because I don't like you were saying you don't have daylight savings there. But whenever the clocks change here, like there's this whole big Yeah. How do we manage daylight savings with the calculator? Yeah. I mean, we we had our daughter in Melbourne. So the first 18 months of her life, we were there. So yeah, we did have to do a little bit of that when she was still a baby and napping. And I remember trying to adjust to like, how do you get them to think it's an hour later or an hour earlier? Like starting the naps? Like 15 minute increments like Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so funny. And the other kids just they just click into it. Like, you know, like, I don't know, just bizarre like, because I've got two kids and they're just completely different. So yeah, you just never know what's gonna happen to Yeah, totally Divi? You're a musician, you do some other things, too. But is musician, your first sort of passion, your first love? Yeah, it definitely is my first love. It's interesting, the whole kind of, I guess the topic of like, how you identify yourself, because I haven't made I haven't tried to make my living from playing music for a really long time. And that was sort of a deliberate choice. I had a day job. For the last, I want to say 10 years as a event producer and arts manager. So I sort of did that as like a nine to five. But yeah, the music part has always been there. Since I was in high school, really, it's, I would say it's like the great love of my life, for sure still is even more so now. Like coming out of the pandemic and and rediscovering music and what it means to me. Yes, definitely the main thing. Yeah. Do you remember how you first got into music? Yeah, it's funny. I was actually talking to someone about this yesterday, we're talking about Disney movies, because my daughter has just entered like the frozen phase that phase. I reckon Disney is like the reason that I'm I took out music. I loved the way that it could merge narrative with musical form. That and yeah, when I went to high school, I went to a school that was some specialists music. So we did a lot, a lot of music there. And when I arrived, I was sort of felt like I was a little bit behind the other kids because there were lots of lots of families and lots of children that came from these big like classical music sort of dynasty families and had been listening to records and like knew all this repertoire. And I didn't really have that kind of an upbringing. Like I there was lots of music played in our family home for sure. Like I was brought up on, you know, all of the sort of classics, but nothing classical music. So when I went into that style of studying and that sort of foundation of learning music. I used to take myself into the State Library actually on a Saturday morning is such a nerd and like listen to record of like, you know, Beethoven and yeah symphonies to try to catch up on all of the learning that I felt like I'd missed. I was Yeah, I was just really obsessed by that the sort of properties of music telling a story and Star Wars and big scores. Stuff that I just loved it like the kind of majesty of it all. Yeah, when you say about Star Wars, I've got I keep like things that inspire me. Because I just love here you can hear a Tiny Toon and relate that to a character and relate that to a whole storyline. And then you just taken into this whole world, like, I just find that so amazing. I just love that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. My first instrument was actually the flute, and I was the world's worst flute player. So when I was a child, you could have opened a can with my face like I had such a pronounced Overbite that I had I had a full Year flute lessons with a very, very patient, lovely woman, who at the end of the year took my mother aside and politely said, Holly has musical aptitude. But I think it's best if she were to play an instrument that doesn't require her mouth, as you know, as an ombre. Sure. Yeah, I couldn't make a sound after a full year of lessons. And that flute teacher specifically said, for some reason, take her to have have lessons with this teacher who teaches play percussion. So yeah, that was the instrument because you know, you just hit it. So you don't need big lungs. You don't need an Ambusher you don't need to use your mouth. She was obviously thinking that I was rubbish at all of those things. Right, yeah. Yeah, like, I guess that's like, the instruments sort of found me by like being disqualified from other instruments that I yeah, I just, I really fell in love with it. It's it's quite physical, I suppose percussion, which I enjoyed this, like, you know, striking the instrument. And the variety of it really appealed to me. So I'm, I'm a sort of being multi passionate is a pretty core facet of my personality. So with percussion, you know, we never really had to choose one instrument like you can have you play snare drum, xylophone, vibraphone, bass drum crash cymbals timpani? Like you get to play everything at the back of the orchestra. And that that really appealed to me, I think, being able to sort of jump from one thing to the other. Yeah, and keep keep things interesting to like, totally not just sitting on the same instrument they have today. Yeah. And I think also another another big thing that I got from that those early years sitting at the back of the orchestra is that, you know, percussionist, they don't play for most of the time. You know, it's like an icing on the cake philosophy, you really are there for like the one or 2% of you know, the moments where the music becomes really exciting, or, you know, that sort of skill of just listening, I think is something that's really carried through to my adult years into the musician that I became because yeah, it's just a lot of listening to other people play. Yeah. And yeah, trying to fulfill that that role. Yeah. Yeah, cuz that's it, isn't it? It's like when when something interesting is happening in the music, whether like you said, it's really big or something really small, like, whether it's like the xylophone or one of those twinkly, chime things that we like, it's really something interesting is happening. I've actually always wanted like, because I'm a musician myself. But I I've always wondered like when I've seen orchestras play, like the person at the back on the, on the percussion, like they're waiting for their turn. Yes, like, a long time. 4550 minutes? Do you sort of, do you have to read the music the whole time to know where you are? Like, do you ever get scared, you're gonna get lost, like key comes up? And you're like, Oh, is it my turn? Like, do you ever get that? Or is it? I mean, I suppose it would, for someone who's just stepped into it, you'd be like panicking. But I guess because you've rehearsed it that many times. But have you ever had that moment? Where you go? Oh, I'm coming up now. But I'm not exactly sure where it is. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, look, it's I guess, being generally when you have a long period of rest. You know, you get you get to know what what's happening in that gap. So yeah, you usually no and like, that's why when I said I used to go to the library and listen to records, I just used to kind of like rote learn an entire piece of music and just listen to it a lot. Again, I was such a nerd. I had like, I stayed at home when I had braces for about two and a half years and I had no social confidence as a team. So I used to put on I used to play Playstation, but I turned down the game volume and put on like Gershwin and just memorize memorize the whole thing. But yeah, generally, but by the time that I got to playing that sort of stuff, I usually knew where I was. But having said that, I fallen asleep on the stage of the Perth concert hall. And very, very nearly missed an entry. Because I'm have a weird like, borderline it's not narcolepsy. It's not narcolepsy, but when I'm seated I can lose consciousness pretty easily if I'm not doing something so I often like will sleep in a meeting in class in school our sleep chronically is it's horrible. I slept in jury duty. Oh, so yeah, onstage just with a really really long time of rest. It doesn't I was sitting there like in my full concert blacks people in the class who was behind me peering over my shoulder and yeah, basically passed out and very, very nearly missed an entry. Oh, gosh, yeah. Oh my god. That's a nightmare. Yeah, it's not a great feeling. Oh my goodness. So you can play a few different instruments. What else can you play? Ah, so play a little bit of ukulele definitely not wizard at it. And I play a bit of piano. So I'm just self taught on piano and keys as well. I write most of my own songs on the keyboard, that's sort of the median that I prefer. Yeah, I would have loved to have probably been more competent on piano. But it just wasn't I sort of had quite a late start with music. Like I only started playing percussion when I was about 11. So it wasn't something that I ever really did as a kid, a younger child. But yeah, I would I play mostly drumset now, like, you know, after all that talk about like, playing in orchestras and playing percussion, I probably defined myself more now as as a drummer. That was a transition that happened in my 20s. And I sort of started to, yeah, just relate more to the kind of musical styles and, and settings that I could play in just on drum set, which is mostly jazz. So yeah, I would say mostly drummer percussionist, I sing as well, again, I would never, I would never say I'm the singer. I think I sing my own songs. I like seeing a bit of backing vocals. But I've definitely I can't belt would never get up and do a covers gig. It's just not how I sort of identify. So when you say you write, like you're writing in the jazz style, is that the sort of songs you write? Oh, gosh, not necessarily. I'm a bit of a folky at heart. Really? Yeah. So I would say singer songwriter, folk pop is sort of the main style that I write in. But then, since I've been playing more drums, i Something I've always sort of struggled with creatively is like finding the right performance context of what what instrument am I actually going to play. Because I drums is my first instrument, but you can't really accompany yourself as a soloist, if you're playing drums. So the band that I play with now over here, I play drums, and I sing from behind the drum set, it's my compositions, but then they'd been rearranged and like more of a jazz style, and I've got a bass player, a keyboard player and a saxophone player. So yeah, really, it just depends on the context, I suppose. Like, I did a house concert in December. And that was lovely, because I was just playing solo, piano bit of ukulele. And that was like, very intimate. So yeah, that's not something that I do very often. And I felt pretty bad. Because the morning after that house concert, I woke up with COVID and then had given COVID to six people at a house concerts. I felt horrific about it. But yeah, that's I guess it just depends on the context. Really? Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of everything. Yeah. Cool. And you also you talked a bit before about your arts and event project management that you've sort of in the day job? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. And what you do with that? Yeah, so I've actually I've sort of recently, I'm in the middle of a bit of a career transition at the moment. So I've done like arts management as my sort of day job yet for, like I said, about 10 years, I got into it, because I think a lot of musicians once you know, I went to uni for music, so I went to work. And like a lot of sort of tertiary educated musicians, if you want to make a living from music, he often ended up doing a lot of teaching. So I came out of uni, and I started doing quite a lot of instrumental teaching. And I just felt like it wasn't really the right fit for me. And I felt quite strongly that if you're going to be in that position of, you know, influencing a child's relationship with music, that you should really care about being there. And it wasn't that I didn't like teaching, I actually really enjoyed it. And I still, I'd still be open to some teaching. But I feel like the framework of a school and the way that instrumental music was taught in schools because it just didn't really resonate with how I wanted to teach and how I felt like kids should be connecting with music. So I was looking for something else to do, I suppose that could make money and be sort of crossed. And yeah, I always liked being really organized. And I liked making things happen. And I yeah, just sort of fell into it. Like I started working with you, the youth orchestra here. And when I'm working with, started working with arts organizations, and then sort of went into festivals and just climbed up from sort of smaller roles to working as a producer and a programmer. A lot of that was when I was in Melbourne, I really focused on that sort of festival work and like working on the national festival circuit. It's yeah, it's a chapter of my life that I would probably consider is coming to a slate and because I'm studying counseling now, so I'm halfway through a Master's in Counseling. And yeah, I guess like just you know, during the pandemic and watching the way that the Australian arts community was placed it festival work is it can really yet chew you up and spit you out. It's long hours. Not necessarily super family friendly. So I was sort of looking for a way to transition out of that work, but Yeah, making that decision, which was only about six months ago, it was a really, really tough choice. Like, it's hard to step away from something that you really do love, and I still love it. Like, you know, it's incredible work, you're working with people that just care so much, and making things happen. It really getting blood out of a stone, like working with almost next to no budget, which is difficult at times. And I think that was also part of the quandary for me, ethically, as someone, you know, in the music community, as well, as a performer, I thought, I'm finding myself in a situation where I'm often having to ask people for to do things for less than I feel they're worth. And that made me feel like, as someone that, you know, sort of has a presence where I often talk about well being and in the arts industry. I don't I just didn't want to feel like I was feeding into that problem, I suppose. People working for less than they're worth, because I do feel like that's part of the issue. Yeah, yeah. So I thought I was pulled back on that, for the time being focus on being a musician again, and focus on studying and working with people in in health plans to work on. Snap crack, with a smoker, Dini accident, good news, to make the gazal disappear. But there's some things you should consider. Rebel. I'm glad you raised that issue about the pandemic and how the arts were perceived and how they were treated. And if any regular listeners will know, they'll hit they've heard this before. I just get so cross and so angry about how the sport kept going, like, yeah, exactly. Players were moving the country, all these bubbles and whatever. Like all everything else that, you know, it was like, that's the only thing of value because that brings in the most money, you know, yeah. And I just, I just kept saying to people, but everyone's sitting at home watching Netflix, you know, who do you think made it made all the stuff, you know, the arts created all of it. And everyone, it was just really made me so mad. And it still makes me mad. And yeah, and then thing to even before that happened, like I've been a performer, just in my, my town here for, you know, I don't know, I'm 44. Now, it's been a long time. And the attitude towards performers is like, they expect you to do stuff for nothing. And this whole thing of Oh, it's great exposure. And it's like, the amount of times I've heard that bullshit. And I've gotten better as, as I've gotten older, just to say no, sorry, if you're not going to pay me this such whatever this amount is, I'm sorry, I can't do it. You know, and it's, it makes me so cross and then so they'll just, they won't change anything, because they'll just go get the next young kid who's just a geek and just take advantage of them. Yeah, that whole thing just makes me really mad. It's so hard. And I mean, I think, for me, my boundaries have always been like, fairly strong, because I had worked on the other side of the fence, and I understood how much budget organizations usually did have to allocate, which is not heaps, but you know, if you are worrying about, you know, quoting 200 bucks versus 500, like, just quote 500, because they can usually afford to pay it like, I guess I had a level of insight from working on the other side of like managing projects for organizations, but I think being a mum becoming a parent is the ultimate like line in the sand of really having to learn, you know, it's not only that the financial value of an opportunity, but like the energy value of an opportunity and like, What's it costing your family and your household for you to be out of the house for six hours. And for them to not be food in the fridge or to not get any of the other stuff done that you need to get done. But yeah, having said that, I'd certainly don't get it right all the time. And it's, I mean, I've only been really, I've only had to be a parent and be in the regular world for less than 12 months because Matilda was born in April of 2020. So you know, most of her life was in the Melbourne lockdowns, which were some of the toughest and we didn't have a regular life at all until we came to WA and then very abruptly had this like pre pandemic existence, which was like difficult to stomach. Yeah, time. Such a huge culture shock from the way that we have been living so yeah, just even like balancing a social life with work and study and gigs. And having a kid that's only I would say, I've only been I've only had a year of experience even though she's two and a half. Yeah, so what took you to Western Australia? Yeah, so I was born here, and I live most of my life here. I love it over here. I've always been a big advocate and like very proud for the arts community. There's some great people over here, even though it is very isolated from the rest of the world and the rest of the country. And then I'd moved. What year was it? 20 End of 2015. I think I met my now husband. And he had been living in the US studying over there, he'd moved back to Australia. And He's based in Sydney, He then moved to Melbourne, we basically met, we went on one day, and we started, we were like, Let's have a long distance relationship. Then I moved up to Darwin. So I left and went up to Darwin for a festival contract. And then after that, I moved to Melbourne and we were there for about six years together. But yeah, it was, it wasn't the plan to move to Perth. When we did I think that was one of those, you know, sort of sliding doors scenarios that so many families experienced during the pandemic, it was, I think, the hard border with WA, I got to a point where it was causing me I would say, real trauma to not be able to come in. We tried five times to get in I had pretty severe postnatal depression after my daughter was born. It was yeah, it was just a horrible feeling, really, to have everyone over here. And I feel a really strong connection to the to the land over here and like to country, and it was just just knowing that it was something that was prohibited and, and a lot of the attitudes that I felt were being displayed towards us as being like, dirty Victorians and like don't come in and like there was this total xenophobia that was Yeah, revolting. Yeah, I've seen I've seen, I would say, I've seen a side of who that I can say. And, yeah, it's been like a bit of a rocky road to rebuilding that relationship with somewhere that I always loved and said was my home before that? Yeah, I think we basically just got to a point where we didn't have any family in Melbourne. So my husband, like I said, was from Canberra, my family's here in Perth. You know, Melbourne at the time, during COVID, it wasn't what it had been. And we were sort of looking at each other saying, you know, how long will it take for it to rebuild to what it was in terms of the the art space? And I think we just wanted some way that we could live with more family support. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was just so wild. It was we made that decision so quickly. Really, when I look back on it, it's, I often reflect that it's kind of remarkable that we made a good decision in in the place that we were mentally like we were, we were in survival mode, big time. Yeah, when we got here, it was just like having a lot of panic attacks. And really, it all just had to come out at some point. Like, it was tough over there that start part. Yeah. But yes, I think it has been the right choice for sure. And my husband as well was in the military band, he's he's a saxophone player. So he was playing in the Air Force Band. When we lived in Melbourne, which sort of that was like the equivalent, I suppose, is like doing a full time nine to five. So it was like, relatively secure, but he didn't have heaps of freedom outside of that job to pursue other creative stuff. So I think now that we're here, we're sort of, we've regained a balance of being both a portion freelance, you know, and a portion teaching or doing other work and for me study, so it feels like a better balance for us to both have that flexibility. And that's something that we're only really able to do because we've got the family support with a young child. Yeah, no, I did. Yeah. It's massive, isn't it? How much difference it makes when you've got that, that support? When you were saying before about this dirty Victorian mentality, where I leave, my town is Matt, Gambia. We're about 20 minutes from the border. To Tory and the amount of abuse that Victorians cops like people would go home like I worked with a there was a because you had to have all these permits to cross the border. For anyone that doesn't know it was pretty full on. So people that there was a lady that I worked with who was Victorian and she said she would cop abuse people would see her number plate in the car pocket coals and we're just abused get out of here and falling over your fires like it was just disgusting. And they're people who are part of our community basically, you know, they work here horrible been their money here, but then they happen to live in a little tiny little, like, basically a rural little thing just over the border. And yeah, it was really horrible. It was horrible. Because, yeah, like you said, this whole new side of people the way people ostracizing people. Totally, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard to think back on it like a lot of I feel like I sort of just blank a lot of it out. Yeah. But yeah, it was I mean, who obviously had the, you know, proudly the world's hardest border. He built the one didn't you know, I can You kind of laugh about it now, but like this, like my heart's like Slack, silently clenching. Still, as we talk about it like, it's still it's totally still hard to think about. Yeah. But you know, having said that, when we got here, I did understand, I suppose, from the side of people that were here, why they were pleased, in a way to have that protection because they were, you know, artists were able to live relatively unencumbered. Like they didn't have to shut down in the same way that you know, certainly that that Melbourne did so. Yeah, I do get it. But yeah, it's just, it's just a whole chapter of life that I'm so glad is over. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Finding my guys when I thought about it, so you're also into the wellness side of things you do yoga? And I guess that's where you counseling sort of coming in to thing? Yeah, yeah. You've been practicing yoga for a long time. Yeah, I have. I want to say I sort of got into it. Like a lot of, you know, yoga, people got into it, just for exercise. That was when I was in my early 20s. And I remember going to classes and that the teacher would spend ages and the breathing and I'd mentally have this dialogue of like, Can you hurry up and get to the fast paced stuff, like get to the poses, I'm here to you know, get a workout on and it's so funny now, because as a teacher, now, I'm a yoga teacher. And, you know, after what 15 years of practicing is, the breathing is my favorite part. And I would have happily spend two hours in one shape like I don't, I'm not in a hurry, the way that I my home practice has completely changed. You know, I love a slow Hathor as opposed to like a fast vinyasa with a million Chaturanga is, but yeah, it was sort of something that I got into it. And I've never done any real movement training, I'd never did dance or anything like that. But I, when I was at uni, I had a bit of like, RSI, and performance injuries, you know, stemming from how many hours of practice I was doing when I was first studying. So I started going to Pilates. And that was helpful to understand, I suppose my physicality and like how my muscles worked. And, you know, being a relatively petite female and playing an instrument that's traditionally made for, you know, German men like classical percussion. It was yeah, it was just helpful to understand how to support my body and what what sort of strength I needed to build in sort of muscles and that sort of thing. Yeah, so I sort of just started and then kept going, and I did something called Yoga for drummers a few years ago, which had sort of like to start getting that going again. So I had a YouTube class and I did a few workshops as well, you know, drummers pit like all musicians, I would say, not hugely on top of looking after their health in on any level. But you know, it's just, it's easy to injure yourself. And I've met so many musicians in their sort of later years, like, you know, 50s, who say, ah, you know, I wrecked my hearing, and I'd never write what earplugs and I've got chronic back pain. And it's like, all of that stuff can actually be really easily prevented. And I think we're starting to get a handle now. You know, sort of globally and in terms of the Australian arts community, I think there is more of a narrative of like prevention is better than cure, you know, trying to give resources to younger people coming into the industry in terms of how do you look after yourself when you're out on the road? How do you eat well, when you're touring? How do you combat this industry that you know, by and large is so unregulated and requires you to work incredibly long hours and usually unwind with, you know, alcohol or drugs? Healthy Choices are the first ones that you reach for on the shelf, I suppose. But for me, I was never somebody that I've always liked to have a good night's sleep. I'm a total Nana, like, even before I love to happy becoming a monk because I was like, finally, I feel like I'm validated in this choice. Like, people aren't gonna hang shit on me for like wanting to go to bed early because I've got to get up early for the child but but I was doing that before I was a mum. Yeah, so yeah, I guess like, you know, just wanting to feel good and and also, you know, with my own mental health, you know, yoga and well being has been a massive tool and like essential, I think for for managing my own mental well being. So yeah, it's just been really helpful. And I think the more people that I've talked to about it now, I think there's more and more museums and artists that are like happy to have those conversations and say like, I really struggle with this or I use this and You know, barefoot running like people are into all sorts of things. Like, it doesn't matter what it is, unless you've got something that works for you. And it's just, it's just trial and error. Yeah, yeah, that whole sort of culture of, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll soda. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like drinking, you know, their boots and going. On they got Hell yeah. A little bit funny. It's good. I've practiced yoga for a long time, as well. And I find nowadays, I just, I just, I do a lot of yoga. I just have been in the photos and breathing. And yeah, I just don't have the energy for anything else. Like, my whole life is so busy and doing. So when I go to uni, I'm just like, ah, like, just just chill out. Yeah, it's so different. I sold my husband on yoga, the only way I could get into a greater guy was to explain that it's basically lying on the floor with a blanket for 75 minutes. Sounds like you can wear your pjs like, you will be in a flat position. Yeah, it's very chill. Yeah, and that's the other thing too, like now like, because I used to also work in the fitness industry. So it was, it was all about what your looks like, and what the latest fashion was on the chain and all these whatever's. And now I just literally will wear my DAG is trackies. And I don't care, like if I've got an old jumper or whatever, because then I'm not going upside down. So I don't have to worry about you know, things coming up. And it's like, it's totally changed. And yeah, it's, and there's actually this guy now that does classes, just with breathing. All he does is breathing. And so this is amazing that he's actually guy went to school with that it'd be the last face at the world. We have a you know, a revelation and come come to that sort of sort of living. But yeah, it's wonderful. Love it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I was naming. I think during the early stages of the pandemic, I remember that first lock down that everyone did like the sort of month long one, the very, you know, March or April 2020 whenever it was, and I remember all of my musician, friends, because we everyone had got job keeper. So no one was worried about making ends meet because they were getting paid to stay home or not work. i The overwhelming rhetoric coming out of every single person that I knew was I am so relieved to have this time off like people were just yeah, you know, and obviously, it got worse. And it got more complicated. And people wanted to go to back to work after that. And they couldn't. But yeah, I remember that strike, it was just like this exhale of like, wow, we're just on this hamster wheel 24/7. And just not only being able to not work and not have things in the calendar, but giving yourself the permission to not have to be constantly practicing and hustling and looking for the next thing. I remember thinking like, wow, we're going to learn so much from this. And then if I look at myself and the people around me, I think that we've struggled to implement those lessons on top. Certainly, I feel the same. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know, coming back, and then you've got to make hay while the sun shines, right. Like that's, that's it? Yeah. As soon as we had the opportunity to make money and to rebuild profile, and to get those opportunities, sort of, you know, rolling again, we all sort of had to do that. And that's unfortunately, how this industry works. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's been a return to balance really, because I think we're all being sold to that society was ready to open up and everyone, everyone wanted to get out. And everyone wanted to do things. It's like, yeah, oh, we have to be there on the other side of that to meet these people. You know, so there wasn't this. Yeah. Like, I can relate to that completely. I had, we had a we have a thing called the it's like the, it's not as big as the Adelaide Fringe Festival. We call it the Fringe Festival down here. Sorry. I hadn't mean. And I had two shows. And I because I was doing a show with my sister, which I wanted to do. And then I'd said yes to this other one without them thinking, Oh, I actually have to rehearse for this and promote this and organize this. Some reason all I had in my head was the geek just being on stage throwing up and do it. Yeah. And I just said, Oh, my God, what have I done? And so yeah, when they pulled the pin on it, I actually was so relieved. I thought, yeah, God for that, like all the pressure of rehearsal. Yeah. Balancing family life and everything and pushing it the promotion and all that sort of stuff was like, Oh, thank God, that's not happening. But yeah, as time went on, it became like, oh, okay, so yeah, everything's canceled now. And obviously, we weren't locked down. but people weren't doing anything. No one was taking bookings. And I was encouraging groups of people and you couldn't dance. There's no dance. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you what, but yeah. And I said to myself, I'll just remember this time how good it is. And then you forget, but now I've really pulled back from gigs since then, like I've really, and, and I think, to just looking at, you know, my family life and the balance that we have, like you said about before, we're talking about the monetary reward for doing a gig, you also have to look at, you know, the emotional strain and the physical titling. And I just also got sick of carrying my stuff around, like, just the thought of loading the car just made me do it. Like I complain constantly about being a drummer. I'm like, why? Worst life choice? I wouldn't change it. But yeah, totally. It's, I for me to say yes to things. Usually, there has to be a house kit like that. It has to be a gig I really, really want to do if I have to be wiring my own stuff. Because, you know, maybe our sport when I was in Melbourne, and there are lots of house kits and venues but yeah, I'm just that it has to be the this the path of least resistance. Yes. This is my philosophy for taking on new things. Yeah, I and I do a lot of like, you know, guest lecturing and stuff in unis with music students, and you know, younger people coming into the industry. And I always one thing I always say as a piece of advice is like, if someone asks you to do something, before you say yes, just pause, pause. Because once that yes is out there, you can't retract it. Yeah. And like you've probably said yes, without really understanding the true scope of, of what's within that opportunity, you know, because like, you probably just gonna get a text that says, hey, free on June 16, for a gig and of text. We need we need a little bit more detail here. Like, you know what time? What's the soundcheck? What's the repertoire? How many hours do I need to commit to learning this material? Do I need to bring my own key out? What will I wear? What's the fee? Like? You really you need to I always say that you should reply with a big laundry list of questions. And you know, really, like put them on the back foot like this is a way that everyone in this industry, I think can be trying to educate each other as to what's an acceptable working environment. Because like you said before, there's so many young people, unfortunately, he'll just jump at the chance to do something for exposure. And like I'm not saying that doesn't have a place it does. For a very, very limited time in your early Korea. But it's I think the way that we fall over is like, oh, when is the point when you transition out of that? And who tells you when to transition out of it. Unfortunately, there's no one else standing there being like, Okay, it's time to do this now. You know, we found that coming back to Perth, I think that's why my husband and I were both completely run ragged at the end of what's today's the second of January. So the end of last year, we you know, transition back, we packed up our house in Melbourne on four days notice to be able to get into wa so like when I say it was quick, it was quick. You know, we really just had to hit the ground running, readjust to living here readjust to living in a pre pandemic society drop all of our trauma or somehow like hardly process it. Yeah. And then like, start getting back into the music community and be like, Hey, we're here. We want to work. You know, that was massive transition, like you know, starting again in a new city is just the same I think as as starting your career. When Yeah, yeah. It's like that process of having a duel that networking and stuff again. That's yeah, took a toll for sure. I think it's good to have that first 12 months back in Perth, like under the belt now, even though it was from here. I hadn't been here for a long time. And he hadn't been here at all. So yeah, it's like basically starting afresh, isn't it? Because yeah, yeah, that that was something I had. I'm not sure if you know, Georgia field. She's a Melbourne. Yeah, amazing. Yes, she is. She's amazing. I love Georgia. So she came on the podcast in its first season. And she sort of related the time she had off when she had her children to basically starting her career again, because you're going back into venues, there might be a different, you know, manager and they're like, oh, what we're going to bring, you know, yeah, yeah, it was that was really challenging for here. And yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things that I was really lucky actually, when I had when I became a mother was that it wasn't like I disappeared from society because I was on this sort of mat leave and the rest of the world kept going, the whole world stopped. So it was actually there was like a bit of solidarity in that I was protected from that, I suppose unique isolation in that everyone was isolated. And everyone was sort of going through That existential crisis of like, oh my gosh, should I just start playing easy to become a data analyst? Everyone was going through that at the same time. So that was I would say that was one of the Silver Linings for sure. Some they were the last the sky seven days to slow down it's only when made outside your daughter's two and a half. Yeah. So what are your days look like now? Yeah, so we are she has been going to childcare she started pretty early. I think that was because I wanted I wanted to go back to work at the time in Melbourne, because we were in lockdown. And I, I was just really struggling, you know, with having no life. So we put her in, and she started going three days a week, and she's kept going three days a week, which has been really good. And she now goes to my mums as well like another sort of one or two days a week. So actually were extremely privileged and fortunate is basically what I'm trying to say and that we have close to five days a week of of care for her. Which means in those five days, my husband, I both pretty much just flat out working. I wouldn't say that we get a lot of time to practice, even though we have all of set with all of that care, like I'm studying as well. So my course load is sort of one to two days a week. And I work I work as a peer support worker now. For a business where we support people on NDIS for mental illness. So I work two to two and a half days a week. Then my course load, I would say is at least 20 to 30 hours a week. And then yeah, there's all this like practice that I'm allegedly doing, which I can tell you in full confidence that I just never do. And does she look after my daughter goes to bed at night? It's so funny. I often I'm like there's parents out there that keep going after their kid goes to bed base. I'm not one of them like that. That is the end of my day. Come 738 o'clock at night. I'm a vegetable. I am good at getting up early. Actually he is too because he was yeah, he's we're an early rising family, my daughter included. So I will usually we will set our alarms for about 430 or five and get up an hour before her. And that time. For me that's really, really integral time for sort of self care. And like I'll do my own yoga practice then and just like, yeah, just get a jump on the day, maybe go and make a quick list of what else I need to get done. And yeah, once she's awake, obviously, it's just like a long form negotiation and getting dressed and eating rice bubbles. You can leave the house and yeah, that's sort of the routine really weekends. I usually try to keep like the Saturday morning as a really quiet family time. Because you know, she's got a big week to like, yeah, being out of the house every day. So that's Yeah, even though the weekends is like, you know, it's it's work time, I reckon. Yeah. sandeels and I both probably work in some form or capacity. Seven days a week, we're chipping away at stuff, I would say seven days a week. We're using her nap time and like tag teaming on the weekends for sure. To get stuff done. But yeah, that Saturday morning is like sort of the Sacred Family time of yeah, just being really slow. And in our jammies. Yeah. Because that's the thing like, I don't know, I don't want to judge other people in the way they do things. But I could not be bothered rushing around on the weekends. Like I feel like we rushed around enough during the week and saying being respectful that your kids are rushing around to a time to to reset and readjust and decompress. And that sort of thing, too. It's like, like we've we've managed to avoid Saturday morning sport for nearly 15 years. Oh, wow. That's actually remarkable. Yes, it is. We've been very lucky. But now my youngest is started playing tennis. So it's like tennis. Is that safe anyway? Oh my god. What is this world? Yeah, I know. I mean, look, when I was a kid, I went to school on a Saturday morning for concert band. Oh, yeah. Right. So yeah, I had before school and after school every day. And then my parents would have to drive me on a Saturday morning to band wait in the car for three hours. Yeah, yeah. But I guess things are different then because you could trust your kids to go out and make their own way around a little bit more and like sort of get public transport. Like I don't know what it's like in that Gambia. But I think you know, when I sort of forecast what it's like to be the parent of a teenage girl which I will be I'm like, oh my god, it's things are gonna have to be so it's just so different to the way that my parents were so relaxed and bohemian with us. We were just doing our own thing. Like, you know, lucky, everything worked out fine. But yeah, we were on a pretty long leash. And I don't I, I just don't think you can parent that way. Probably. anymore with the same confidence, unfortunately, I wish to think about it all the time. Yeah. And yeah, the whole social media thing that's been that's a tricky one to navigate to, because we didn't grow up with that ourselves. And how do you sort of had an eye? It's a tricky one. That's that's one that's constant work in China, it's so hard, like, I'm really conscious of being on my phone in front of Matilda. And, you know, the more that she's going to see me on my phone, the more she's going to desire a phone as as cool thing to play with. So yeah, I do. Yeah, I tried to sort of be in the other room, if I have to, like send a quick text or, you know, get back to somebody. But it's also that thing, I suppose if just, if someone needs a response from me, and I'm with my child, they will they'll, they can just wait until, until I'm ready to respond to them. Like, I definitely don't feel that pressure to send someone an instant response. Like I think that there's enough. There's enough conversation and visibility around parenting and working for yourself now that I think we can all support each other to I've had other mums say to me, like, I can't get back to you right now. My kids like doing a poo in a park in the lawn. can relate? I don't even need to write that message like exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And I think, yeah, in the same way, I feel like businesses because of the social media, and because they're on like, it's 24/7. People feel like they can send people messages anytime day or night. And because sometimes I'm so guilty in the morning, because I'm like, Hello, world. Yes, I feel like people have to be really strict with their boundaries. And then people have to respect that. It's like, oh, we're gonna do so yeah. Great. It's a whole new world, isn't it? We're learning to navigate together. I'm struggling to find a genie. And so you say about your working on the weekend? Do you ever feel like I like to talk to all my moms about this concept of mom guilt? And I hate the term. I wish it didn't exist, but I know it does. What does that mean to you? Or how do you feel about that? Yeah, I mean, I think it certainly exists. And I think it's an almost inescapable phenomenon. Yeah, a couple are earlier last year now. 2022. So I went away to Tasmania for 10 days. And I did a a creative music intensive with the Australian Art orchestra, which, when I applied for, I mean, I started the year last year, like, I was still breastfeeding, like, I breastfed until she was just under two. And I just applied for it and thought, you know, what, if this is meant to happen, I'll get in, they'll give me a place, I'll rediscover what it was like to be a museum again, and like be a creative person, because I'm really deprioritize being a creative in my own right. That whole time, really, I'd say I was living in Melbourne, like I just really focused on festival work, and which is a different type of creative work and problem solving. But it's not writing and playing music. So that was a really, that was a really big thing, you know, going away for such a long time. And I'd waned her by then, but still, I remember right up until I got on the plane. I was like, I'm gonna turn around and go home. This is crazy. Like, who am I to take 10 days away from my child and to put that load on to my partner? And yeah, I did. I did have a lot of guilt for sure. About what, like I said before, what the cost of that was for everyone else. And you know, we're lucky that we have so much family support, so I really just didn't have to worry about her. She could not have cared less that I was gone. Definitely was harder for me. But yeah, I it was that was a big shift for me going on that trip. I'm so glad I did it like it was there was about 25 of us from around Australia and a couple of people came from overseas and we were in the central highlands of Tasmania, super remote, little village. It was just just out group each day. And one of the other producers from the orchestra who was sort of the operations manager He brought his partner and their young child down from Melbourne and their child was very similar age to my daughter. And I had this moment where we were watching a performance, which was a very, very moving performance of some Aboriginal singers and song makers from up in Arnhem Land. And I was sitting there watching and I was watching this mum play with her, bought her little boy, and I just my whole being just imploded into tears, like it was just like this catharsis of really profoundly missing my daughter. But at the same time, I was so grateful for being able to be there. But I think just realizing, really, really realizing in my core for the first time, that my whole identity was completely different. And that that person that I was watching, play with her child was me like, that was myself. And that was, yeah, I just sort of hadn't really realized it and looked at it from the outside. Like that until that moment. But yeah, the guilt that I had to sort of wade through, I think to take that time for myself was immense. Yeah, and yeah, there's always like people, and I feel like people make comments as well. You know, if you're, if you happen to be related to anyone who parented in a different generation, it's very hard to escape. Yeah. Other people's points of view. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, it is, it is a thing. And I think that's probably for me why? Because I do, like I said, you know, I've got her almost in five days of care, which is a lot. So the time that I do spend with her, I want to be really, really present. And I think that's for me, I'm able to sort of put them on gear on the back burner, because I know that I am really present with that time. And nothing else is allowed to intrude into the time that we spend together. You know, like when she comes home at the end of the day we play we have a dance party like um, yeah, I feel like I'm a fairly present parent. Maybe I'm just telling myself that to obey the monkey. But yeah, I usually I wouldn't say that. My thoughts elsewhere when I'm with her, I suppose. Yeah. So after you went on that trip, was it then did you feel like I guess you talked about the realizing who your your identity had changed was that then when you came back? Did you then find it difficult to then have those two parts of your identity coexist? Was that a challenge then? Or was that really? Yeah? No, I haven't found it to be a challenge. I think, you know, what it's actually makes it a lot easier is the fact that I'm able to share music with my daughter. And it's such a huge, I can see in her that that's something that she loves. And I guess I'm quite fortunate. Like, I mean, for example, she wouldn't let she never let me Of course play my instrument at home. I'm not allowed to do any practice ever because toddlers are very self centered world to revolve around them. So if your attention is elsewhere that she and she's not like a wallflower about it. She's like a flaming volcano of rage about I'm not paying attention to her. So yeah, I was never able to even even like, you know, anecdotally play the ukulele and sing her song was not allowed. So I was thinking when I was in Tassie, I was like, what, what's the get around for this, because this is really pissing me off. And so I thought she's, she, she wants it to be about her. So I'll write her a song about her. Yeah, write this song about her, which I recently actually recorded. And I'm just gonna go on a release that I'm doing in a few months time. But that was, you know, one. So I was just looking for creative ways to bring her into the that world so that we could share it together because it's not going to look the same as when I wasn't a parent. And I could go into a room and sit down and have uninterrupted time working on songs or playing my instrument. I can only do that when she's not in the house. Or when she's in theory asleep, like it's getting that time is hard, I suppose is what I'm trying to say. So there's other ways that we can engage together in music. Luckily, it's something that she really loves. Like I took her to a gig last night. There's a band that plays here first Sunday of every month at at the fish pub, and it's just so family friendly and such a vibe like I actually the same bands been going for more than 30 years. So I used to go and see this this same band with my parents. It's so wicked like yeah, being able to kind of bring it into the new generation take her and Yeah, lucky for me, she does. She loves to boogie. Like I've set a pretty strong role model that the dance floor is a place for like cutting sick and inhibitions go so yeah, she's got good staying power on the dance floor. And that's that was it's just so much fun to include her in that so I feel fortunate that it's something that she's willing to get on board with because I definitely if that wasn't the case, there's no way I could bring myself to force her to love music like I I couldn't care less if whether or not she you know wants to become a musician. Despite having two musician parents. I just, I suppose I care that She feels a sense of release from listening to music and a sense of joy and happiness and fulfillment on some level, because that's what I get from it. So yeah, trying to share that with her it has, I would say been the number one joy as a parent being able to share that with her it's soundly whether that Rolla cries this guy. I'm sad. And, you know, the worst thing you can do with music is tell someone how it's supposed to be like, there's Yeah, there really. And I think there's so much of that, that I see in, you know, particularly studying music at a tertiary level, like trying to unlearn the learning of someone being like this is this is jazz, this is classical lateral, this stupid labels that we put on ourselves, which, for me, coming back to Perth has actually been really beautiful and liberating, because I'm fine. I'm in the part of my life now where I just don't care anymore about any of that stuff, like I, you know, sort of was identified so strongly with this like box of, you know, being a very classically educated person for so long and only being, you know, playing in orchestras. And that was what I wanted to do. And then I was like, Well, I couldn't possibly play jazz, or I couldn't be a drummer. And then when I went to Melbourne, to live, I remember going to a jam session that one of the first weeks I was there with a friend and he said, Are you going to get out? But I was like, No. And then I just had a moment of realizing like, no one knows me. Like, I could get up right now. And just, for all they know, I'm a badass drama. Like, maybe, maybe I just like start something new, you know? And so I just sort of got up and was like, I'll just gonna, I'm going to say this is the thing that I do. And yeah, overcoming that self stigma, I think is a really a big, it's takes time. I would say that's the best thing about betting in my 30s. And just not caring what people think anymore. It's definitely because it's your it's your everyone's just their own worst enemy. Really? Like that's what takes the longest to overcome. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's a common theme with people chat, too. It's like 30s and 40s. It's like, literally, you could not give a shit. It's wonderful. When you think back on your younger years, and it's like, Oh, my God, what did I think I What will I think was wrong with me like, yeah. And you think all the things that you could have done, but you didn't do? Because you held yourself back? Yeah. Barney Hill. Yeah. So funny thing is, I can tell I'm super old now. Because I find myself thinking things like youth is wasted on the young. I'm like, I'm an old person. I'm there I've arrived Is there anything else that you want to mention about what it's like being a mom and doing your thing? God just said, I just don't, don't get it right, more than half the time or, or any of the time ever. I think it's just so funny, because, you know, sometimes you have days that you just think I nailed it. And then the next day is just like, the apocalypse. Just like the tire can change. So so quickly, you know, you go from and as I think, this year, I for the past year, maybe we were just really, you know, our immune systems were compromised for being in lockdown. But as the sickness just really got to us, and that was a really difficult thing to contend with. So yeah, we had days where everything was like, perfect. And then the next day, like, you know, my daughter's in emergency on a respirator. They can just take so quickly. No, I don't have anything else. Really, I've got no words of wisdom, just just try to you know, take it one day at a time. I think everyone just needs to be more gentle on themselves. So that's probably and particularly where we are now. I don't want to say post pandemic, because we're still in it. But I think everyone's very tired. Actually, I think there's a deep fatigue and exhaustion for people in the creative industry, that, you know, we're picking up the tab now for the last couple of years, like in terms of, you know, emotionally in the energy and it's taken a toll. And I think, I think just to acknowledge that for ourselves, as well as you know, acknowledge that the space that we're holding for our children and and For other mums as well, like, I'm so lucky, I've got some of my, my best friends who I went to uni with, you know, a million years ago. And we all studied music together, there were all mums over here together at the same time. And it's so funny because even though I finally after years, we all live in the same place, the majority of our contact with each other is just sending each other like frantic voice memos and never seeing each other and just being like, I really want to see you. It's been three and a half months. And you finally see each other and it's just like, you get five minutes of conversation, because your kids are just running around. Doing Yeah, someone's trying to throw themselves in front of a car like, yeah. Oh, yeah. My sister. And I often joke about that. Like, it was nice to catch up. I don't feel like I spoke to you at all. But yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think you know, just try to have that space for each other as well. But also know that you can, you can take up that space, that's something that I'm still working on that very much, just allowing myself to take up the space of feeling tired and feeling overwhelmed sometimes. And I've, I'm also very guilty of putting myself down because I've only got one child. So I often invalidate my own parenting challenges, because there's only one of her, which is really stupid. And I'm trying to work on not doing comparing myself to people that have more children and being like, Oh, they've got it worse than me. Yeah, those are all things. For sure. No, I'm good on you. But thank you so much for sharing your time with me today. It's been lovely chatting to you. So lovely. And thanks for just like running the podcast. It's so awesome. Oh, I just love it. I just love talking to people. And I don't know, I just, it's just a lot of fun. I don't know. It's just a fun thing. Yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Zach Mander Australian comedian + announcer S4Ep103 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In the second of my Father's Day special podcast episodes. I welcome Zach Mander, a comedian, radio announcer and father of 2 from Brisbane Australia. Zach has hosted national radio shows on stations such as 2Day FM and FOX FM and specialises in clever and offbeat content. He is the self proclaimed 'Bluey detective delving in to the much loved Aussie kids show and providing witty observations. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission thanks to my APRA AMCOS mini online license. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes .....

Rebecca McMartin Australian podcaster + mental health advocate S3 Ep80 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I welcome Rebecca McMartin to the podcast, Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia, but sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller and mum of a little boy, nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet, and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being 'creative' or good enough. Following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling and start Perinatal Stories Australia - a podcast, blog, and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations, Rebecca hopes to increase awareness, to advocate for maternal mental health causes, to reduce stigma, to inform listeners about the support services available, to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. This episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders including anxiety, depression, PTSD, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Connect with Rebecca website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website Gidget House Subscribe to the podcast weekly email here - never miss an episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today. It is lovely to welcome you into my studio here in Mount Gambier in South Australia. As I'm recording this today, it's a beautiful 22 degrees Celsius outside. That's about 70 and Fahrenheit. If the sun is shining, there's a light breeze, there's not a cloud in the sky. And you can probably hear the birds are singing. I thought I'd leave my window open and give you a little taste what it feels like to be in my part of the world. Today I'm welcoming Rebecca McMahon to the podcast. Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia. But she sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller, and mom of a little boy nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being creative, or being good enough, following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling, and start perinatal stories Australia, a podcast blog and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations. Rebecca hopes to increase awareness to advocate for maternal mental health causes to reduce stigma to inform listeners about the support services available to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. Please be aware this episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders, including anxiety, depression, post traumatic stress disorder, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Thanks again for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for coming on. Rebecca. This is a real pleasure to meet you and to speak to you today. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. I think I followed your podcast for a while now. So I felt very like privileged Whitney, like sent me a message saying if I'd like to come on, and I was like, Yes, please. It's lovely to hear. Thank you. So you're in Sydney. Yeah. What's it like up there today? Is it is it? It's disgustingly hot. But I mean, I can't complain. It's been terrible weather all year up until about a week ago started to feel like summer finally. So I guess, you know, you get what you wish for and like we've been the same. It's just we've had no sort of just nice average weather. It's been raining extremely cold. Yep. Or then we get 39. So it's like I said, I can't wait till it gets hot and then we can start whinging about how to exactly, exactly. I need something new to whinge about you know? Yeah, so your mom and Your Podcast, you've been very active on your social media, sharing your your story and your journey with your perinatal stories Australia, can you can you tell us all about that and what inspired you to start that whole experience for people? I mean, you know, perinatal stories Australia, it's it's a platform really to share stories about perinatal mental health, you know, what we go through? I mean, yes, there's contentious arguments in the community about whether perinatal anxiety or depression are actually different from non perinatal anxiety, depression, I feel like it is. And I felt like we needed a space to talk about that to share stories about that, because going through mental illness itself is hard enough, going through it as a mom during pregnancy and or postpartum is just on another level. And that all came about, you know, I've had a history with anxiety, I've had a history with depression. And I, you know, naively thought that, you know, if this does happen to me postcard, and then you know, I've gone through it before I'll get through it again, it'll be right. But you know, as we learn, it doesn't discriminate. You can be a psychologist or social worker, you could be a doctor, you could have all this experience and personal history or knowledge of mental health or mental ill health, and it can still hit us like a ton of bricks. And that's what happened to me, I, I guess I was in denial about how anxious I was during my pregnancy. And, you know, I was so focused on postpartum and wanting to control my postpartum in order to protect myself from depression, or anxiety, or psychosis, which I'd learned about during pregnancy, and it scared the absolute shit out of me. But yeah, I was in denial about the fact that my anxiety was really there in pregnancy, and it was getting worse and worse and worse, at the start, I kind of kind of brushed it off, because, you know, I could still go to work, I was still functioning. So therefore, it was okay. You know, we tell ourselves those things, and you know, it's fine. And it'll be fine. When he you know, my baby's here, it's just hormones, you know, we go through that we dismiss ourselves. And my anxiety just got worse and worse, to the point that I wasn't leaving the house. And I know, that's such a stereotype. But I was having panic attacks every day. And I, I developed this fear of birth, which became pathological and even I was just missing myself, like, all everyone's scared of birth, and I'd taken all the classes, you know, all the calmbirth classes and wanting to be prepared, and I was originally feeling confident about birth. And then I wasn't, then I was just convinced I was going to die. And so that anxiety just took hold, I couldn't move, I couldn't go to work without bursting into tears couldn't leave the house couldn't make decisions. And it just the closer and closer it got to birth, the more and more it felt like I'm getting closer and closer to death. So that just became obviously a very horrible, horrible experience. But again, I just kept thinking, oh, when he's here, when the bus over, it will be fine. Obviously doesn't happen. You know, we I mean, mental illness in pregnancy is so under diagnosed, and so brushed off because we're so focused on postpartum. Yeah, and, you know, unfortunately, if you don't treat it in pregnancy, it actually gets us into a spot of like, you know, though, shocked to me, but I'm sure a shock to a lot of people I've spoken to a lot of mothers who said the same thing, you know, it popped up in pregnancy, but all hormones, it'll get better. And it doesn't because you're then thrown into this whole new situation with a whole new human who you have to, you know, you have to look after them so that they can survive and Yeah, unfortunately for me, I will, unfortunately but I I ended up booking a planned cesarean because I just the thought of going through labor and not panicking. I just couldn't see myself doing that. And you know, I guess the C section wasn't exactly a walk in the park I wasn't looking forward to that either. But there was a bit more certainty and a bit more control and the thought of going through labor and ending up in an emergency sixth section anyway because I wasn't able to control my anxiety. I made that decision and you know, it may have been me and you know, your coping skills you think okay, if that's something that you're scared, okay, just kind of tune it out a little bit. And so I was in the surgery and I I was in the room, my mind wasn't in the room. And you know, that led to something that I wasn't expecting, which was actually birth trauma. I did get diagnosed with postpartum PTSD and from that, I think that dissociation So yeah, that took me by surprise because in theory On paper, I had a very textbook birth, I lost minimal blood, everything was okay. Everyone was so lovely to my obstetrician, the midwives, I was even allowed my social worker in that room because everyone in that room knew how anxious I was. And they were doing everything to make sure I was comfortable and safe and okay. But I was still scared. And that anxiety in late pregnancy just obviously manifested and became crisis point within a few days of my son's birth. So I couldn't sleep. Anytime I tried to close my eyes, I would, I would have nightmares. And it would just jolt me, you know. So for days, I was having like red flashing firework scary images in front of my eyes, and I was petrified. So I was already anxious in pregnancy, this then just scared the shit. Obviously, you know, and then you've got a baby to look after. And I developed well, I learned that I had OCD my whole life, but it was very mild. It then obviously became a bit more acute. At this point in time, everything just kind of bubbled up. It was, you know, the anxiety were full crisis mode, there was the PTSD, there was rapid onset of OCD, there was a lot going on. And within a few days of my son's birth, we were admitted to a mother and baby psychiatric hospital because I was so distressed and I wasn't sleeping. And yeah, that's obviously not the story, I thought I'd tell about my own motherhood, that's not the story. You know, here I am thinking, Oh, I've had experience with mental ill health. You know, I can see my psychologist, you know, I've got skills, all of that went out the window. And I was absolutely at rock bottom. And, you know, this is someone me who is comfortable talking about my mental health who's had that experience. I can only imagine going through that. And you haven't seen a psychologist before. You haven't. I didn't even know that there was such a choice was and I especially didn't know that there were any for mothers and babies. This was all intimidating as well. So I mean, that turned out to be the best thing I've ever done in my life. Obviously, at the time, I didn't think that I was, I was terrified. Because this just felt like another thing I'd failed, or, you know, I was crazy. I was broken, I had no reason to be there. You know, there are women who are single parents, or they've gone through a very traumatic birth, or they've, you know, they're victims of domestic violence, or for whatever reason, I thought, You know what, I'm coming from a place of privilege. I shouldn't be feeling this, I must be broken. I must be crazy. You know, you, you kind of say things to yourself, like, Well, someone else has a better reason for this. It's clearly I'm just broken. No, and yeah, yeah, we look for those reasons. And when we can't find it, we then blame ourselves even more. Which is ridiculous, isn't it? Because there's we have absolutely no control, no control whatsoever on how on all of this stuff. Yeah. And yeah, sure, you know, maybe if my anxiety had been managed, better in pregnancy, and you know, the hormones, you know, maybe there was something more we could do. But at the end of the day, it doesn't discriminate. It's in my psychopathy, or my psychology, or, you know, it just it was going to happen. And I think a lot of people had to validate that for me is that, you know, with your history, something like this was going to happen, maybe not 16, and it obviously just snowballed out of control. But, you know, and how lucky am I that I was able to go to that Mother Baby Unit, I say this a lot, but I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that, you know, my son and I were allowed to be admitted together. That's the whole point. You know, the mother gets treated, while still prioritizing that mother baby diet, making sure you know, mom and Baba together and i My heart breaks for women who have to go to, you know, the emergency department and they're separated from their Bob for days or weeks. And you know, they're in a place where they can't have visitors. And I mean, this was in the middle of COVID lockdown in Sydney as well. So I was lucky my husband was able to stay as well because you know, they prioritize that family unit. We were locked in this little hospital. But again, being a mum in a general, you know, a public hospital or whatever with an emergency department in that psych unit not being allowed visitors your phone's taken off, you kind of thing I just My heart breaks and like I said, I am so lucky, so fortunate that I was able to attend the only one in New South Wales at that time. Know, I guess that's to answer your question. That's where perinatal stories Australia came out because like I said, this wasn't the story of motherhood. I was excited acting. And despite my knowledge and my experience, this all took me by surprise. And there was so much that I learned about mental health, specifically maternal mental health. And I just thought we don't talk about this. You know, it wasn't until I started talking to, you know, family extended friends, that people were like, Yeah, my sister's been there, or you're my auntie went to that hospital. People knew about it, but we don't talk. And what a disservice we're doing to mothers, by not talking openly about this by maybe, you know, they will then feel ashamed. Like, I'm clearly broken, I had to go to a psychiatric hospital, I'll never talk about this in my life. And I thought, I don't, I don't want that I don't want this to just be a bad memory, I want to do something with it. I want to tell these stories, my own and other women's so that there are mums out there potentially going through this who don't think they're broken, they don't think they're alone, and that they can potentially learn about some of the options available. You know, when you're in that moment, or that moment that, you know, crisis point, you feel like there is no help hope there is no help. There is nothing that will save you. And to know that, you know, it's not just necessarily going to a counselor, it could be antidepressants, it could be a psychiatric hospital, it could be seeing a social worker, it could be there's an occupational therapist, there are so many different pathways to receiving help are a combination of all of these, you know, whether you go down the line of potentially doing therapy like the eye movement, desensitization reprocessing, so EMDR whether you do that, or whether you go down the line of TMS, so the transcranial magnetic? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know the acronym at the top of my head. But there's so many options, and they sound scary. But then when you actually talk to women and hear their experience of it, it becomes less and less foreign. And you start to feel a little bit more of that hope. So that was my goal. That was my goal with the podcast. And it took me it's taken me a year now to actually release the episodes. I only released my first episode six weeks ago, but I've been thinking about it and working on the social media stuff, and just trying to, I guess, build that community, but also feel a little bit more confident, because I have no idea I'm doing, let's be honest, I'm not a podcast, I still don't see myself as that. I don't see myself as a creative. So that in itself is something I'm still trying to negotiate with myself. So yeah, me being me, I want to be great at what I do. So I didn't want to release an episode. Like, you know, I had to build it up and had to learn and I had to teach myself because I didn't want to get too excited. I wanted to make sure I did it. Right. Yeah, I worked on the social media stuff just as a little as a starting point. So that was a space. And it still is, you know, for advocacy for raising awareness for education for sharing some parts of my story, some of those personal bits and pieces. And now obviously, that the podcasts been released, I'm sharing the stories of those moms who've gone through that, which is phenomenal. And I'm so grateful that they've been open and honest about those experiences, because the amount of women who have messaged saying, you know, I didn't know that this was an option I or I've gone and booked in to see my doctor, I'm actually going to ask for help now. Yeah, sorry. I just get shivers that it's yes, I can totally resonate with that. I think that's just the way I sort of see it is like not everybody is capable of sharing. And that's fine. So it's, it's totally okay. The people that are I sort of feel like it's it's your I don't know what the word is. You're not obliged to do it. But if you know how to do it, do it because it just helps so many people and you have no idea like you said until people talk about it you don't know who in your life you already know or I've met that has had experiences similar or can learn from your experiences like you were saying about people go oh Jeepers, that's raise something in May. I'm going to do something about it. It's so powerful and I just think like Good on you because it's it is vulnerable to share. What is the definition of the perinatal time period so perinatal is pregnancy to a year postpartum technically that is the medical definition, I'm of the opinion and with some other people I've met on Instagram, but you know, it could also be preconception, you know, if you're going through infertility or loss, that doesn't discount, it's not that you shouldn't be included because you don't technically meet that pregnancy and postpartum one definition, I still include it. But I mean, on a technicality, it is that time period between pregnancy and one year postpartum. And that's when you are most vulnerable to a mental illness as a woman, you are never more vulnerable than in that time period in your life yes. When you talked about having been able to go to the hospital to admit yourself and your baby, I didn't know those plates existed either. When I went through my experience with my second child, I was offered to be admitted to hospital, but it would have meant that it was only for me and not baby. So I chose not to. Because I felt that it was more important for me to be with my child, because I actually had this feeling that he was going to help me heal. I just had this really, I don't know what it was a feeling that I had to keep him close to me. And I think that's what deep helped me get through it. Whereas with my first child, I was always pushing him away and pushing him away. And that's the thing too, I think, even though we do have these, these mental health issues, it can be so different with the each child that you have. Exactly. Which is was my experience. Yeah, it's it's a weird, weird thing, the brain and the way our bodies work. So when I want to go back to when you were pregnant? Yeah. And you talked about having your you said it was your social worker, I think, yeah. So you had support during your pregnancy. And so me being me and wanting to be in control and prepare for postpartum, I did go through a very informal postpartum planning, it was my way of being in control. And really, it was just a symptom of my anxiety. But it worked out well in the sense that I had, I had reached out to Gidget foundation, so digit house, they have their free talk therapy, during pregnancy and postpartum. So I reached out and I got on the waitlist for that. And I was able to speak to a psychologist throughout my pregnancy and postpartum one who was obviously well versed in maternal mental health. And through my obstetrician, she was phenomenal. I know so many people have not so great experiences I had, I had a wonderful one who was constantly checking in on my mental health and, okay, so at the hospital, I gave birth, she referred me to the social worker. So it's an obstetric social worker who's part of the hospital, my OB referred me through there, just just to make sure that I had like a safety net, just in case. And so I went to speak to that social worker just once give her a rundown of my history. It wasn't until we got closer to birth, that I was scared of the birth that my OB coordinated with her to be present at the time of the birth. And then obviously, she became such a key part in my postpartum my early postpartum while I was in hospital having that acute episode, she was the one who got me into the mother and baby unit, which I didn't even know existed. So I'm, I had that safety net in a way, which, you know, again, I cannot imagine where I would be. I know where I'd be. I don't want to imagine it. If it weren't for her, or even my OB to actually put me in contact with her, someone who knows maternal mental health and knows the services and support systems that are available to catch you when you fall. So, yeah, it's when I was saying before, I'm from Gambia, we're a small town. They say we're, we're the second largest city, and I say city in inverted commas. Because we're not a city. We're we're a large country. 10 second largest outside of Adelaide, like in Australia, which is quite scary. I mean, it is. Yeah. Got it. You can't compare the City of South Australia today via the capital city. Which is kind of nice to do. But yeah, I had no idea what's Ever since we had or didn't have, I just presumed we really didn't have anything down here. And it wasn't until that I needed them that all of a sudden you discover all this stuff. And I sort of I didn't have when, when my first child, I was sort of diagnosed after the fact, a few years later of having personnel depression, because I basically slipped through the cracks, because I wasn't giving them the answers that they needed for the takeoff checklist. Basically, I didn't fit the criteria. And unfortunately, there was wasn't the, you know, the services or the right people at the right time to ask questions, always really struggling. And it's not just because basically, I was trying to justify it. I was like, Oh, I'm just having a bad day. You know, I just haven't had a lot of sleep. I was in complete denial, and was my husband that said to me, I think you've got that thing that they talked about it. Any NATO class, I'm like, No, I don't I've just, you know, it's just a crap day. But it wasn't just a crap day. And it was really funny A Few Years Later. Not funny, but, you know, ironic using my gynecologist who was I kept saying, you know, between my babies, because I was having my Rainer, and then having that removed and all that and, and he said, Oh, yeah, sounds like you had some postnatal depression, or that's something that could have been solved with one, one tablet a day. And I just went off for God's sake. Just the other night, it was not that he was belittling, it was basically saying we could have fixed that we could have. Actually, nobody realized, you know? Yeah, and so then it was really good. When I had my second child. Like you were saying about having things in place, mine was a little different. Because I don't know, it was seven years between my children. And I had this idea that I was going to be fine. Yeah, it's like denial again. And when I was pregnant, because I don't know, my pregnancy hormones kept me right up here. I was cracking along, everything was great. I was journaling about all the things I do differently, and everything was gonna be different. And when I got into the hospital, they, they've sort of red flag to my file. You know, watch out for this one, sort of, which was the best thing they ever do. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. When it happened, things moved really quickly. And really, in the right, you know, everyone knew what had to be done. Because it did happen to have even made it to three days after I heard you, it just went back. And I, I also had a very traumatic birth and, and got diagnosed with PTSD from the birth. But the whole birth trauma thing was a new thing. Because it wasn't two years after that, I actually realized that that's what it was. And that was just through social media, following particular people and just went, Oh, I think that's what happened to me. And then I'd been vaccine was my counselor. Like for therapy and stuff, and I talked to her about it. And when I was really telling her my birth story, and she said, Oh, yeah, I don't want to diagnose you with something else. But yeah, you've got PTSD. And that's birth trauma and understood a lot. Like, oh, wow, just add it to the list. Just another thing to add Yeah. It's the weirdest thing. You just, some people just, you know, breeze through it, everything's great. Everything's fine. And you sort of think, like, I don't know, did you have an experience where you talked about not having the ideal birth? And do you ever feel like you've missed out? Did you ever feel completely, like almost jealous of other people that have got to have certain things, I went through a grieving process. And that grieving process actually lasted longer than that acute episode, I was in hospital. So I was in hospital until my son was six weeks old. That's when we were discharged the day after he turned six weeks old. And obviously, things weren't great, but I wasn't in that acute crisis state. I was back to maybe mild, moderate. And then, you know, once you're out of that distressed state, you can then work on therapy and all the skills that you had, that then starts to kick in. But then the grief hit until maybe my son was about six months old. And you know, I would my one of my friends had her baby boy. So I have a son. So she had a baby boy about three months after I did. And, you know, she had the vaginal birth she had the breastfeeding journey that I didn't. And yes, that's not to dismiss how hard motherhood is, but she had that newborn bubble. And I, I cried it. To put it bluntly, it felt like my heart broke into a million and pieces, because I just thought how much mental illness took away. You know, not just what I wanted, but it took away that newborn bubble, that breastfeeding experience, you know, the bonding that we're told, breastfeeding provides us it took away moments that I would never ever get back those first six weeks of my son's life, I would never get those back. And it took up until he was six months old for me to reconcile with that, and to Yeah, come to a place where I, you know, no matter how much I wanted to, I couldn't change what had happened. So in that up until he was six months old, that grieving process, I then reached stuck. I then wanted to reestablish breastfeeding and try re lactating. So I tried so hard at that I, you know, had the approval of, you know, the community nurse, and my psychologists, psychiatrists, because they said, Okay, you're in a different headspace, but I was still grieving. And in my head, reestablishing breastfeeding was my way of wanting to get back the time that I had lost, because if I just clung to breastfeeding as the answer to my problems, and it didn't work, which I knew it wouldn't work, probably for a few. I was, you know, you have to pump like seven times a day, 10 minutes each. So you know, it is just not happening when you've got a an infant and you're speeding, you know, playing, changing body, all of this, you know, and you need to eat yourself. And so it just wasn't happening, but I clung to it. And it wasn't until six months postpartum, that I just realized that even if it did work, even if I was able to reestablish breastfeeding, there was nothing that would change what had happened, there was nothing I could do to get that time back, even if it magically worked. And I was breastfeeding and we could enjoy this current time in this sense through breastfeeding. Those six weeks weren't coming back. And I needed to make peace with that and that grief was that like I said, it lasted a lot longer than even the acute episode and it was consuming it did a grief made me you know, suffer more than I already was. But yeah, there was that jealousy and there was that just I mean, I call it grief because it just I wanted so badly what they had not that I wanted to take it away from them, but I just wish I got Yeah. And no, I mean it's still even with me. One of my other friends had her beautiful baby girl about six weeks ago and you know, I didn't cry for a solid two months straight this time. I cried for a couple of hours but that just yeah, it it still hits you and you still think what did I miss out? You know, the last bit of my pregnancy that you know, you convince yourself you're not capable or you can't function and your anxiety is just in control. And you know, you just wish you was strong enough I guess I'm gonna use that in quotes to overcome your anxiety and be brave you know all that positivity. So you know, you wish you could just think it think your way out of it and have some positive affirmation. And it doesn't but you still hold on to that you know, you still think God I wish I could have just I wish I wasn't controlled by my anxiety or I wish I wasn't controlled by my mental health and because of that I missed out on some of the experience I wanted and it's not my fault it is an illness. But it still hurts it hurts like hell. And yeah, like I said I didn't like with my friend who had her boy at three months when I was three months postpartum I cried every single day for hours and hours and hours a day for maybe two three months. This time it was only a few hours but you know it that grief is mental illness takes away a lot from us you know and especially as a mom you miss out on on so much and your kids grow so quickly and in that six weeks I wasn't getting that time back you know and that's still something that eats away and sits with you and I don't know if I deliver not eat away at me but yeah, you know and that's okay. That's okay. I'm allowed to grieve that you know it's getting easier but yeah absolutely. You said how mental illness take so much away is that what's makes you really passionate about sharing your story. It's like you can, you can take this thing that's been so destroying and turn it into something. I don't want to say positive because it sounds cliche, but you know me like to sort of say, okay, so this has happened, this has been really shit really, really bad. But the silver lining is that maybe I can help someone else. Maybe I can, you know, has that been a factor in think so. But I think this was also my way of processing the grief and owning my story. You know, this was a strict like I said, I this is not the story, I want to be telling you about motherhood, I wish I had a very different story to be sharing. I wish I had the stories that my friends were sharing about their births and their newborn bubbles. And, yeah, I wish I had that. But this is my way of owning it. This is my way of acknowledging that I can't change those six weeks. And that's in it's hard. But I'm owning it. And by doing this by sharing my story, it's actually my way of processing my own bullshit. Processing my own grief and actually acknowledging, well this did happen. And I can, you know, try to sweep it under the rug, and, you know, pretend it didn't happen and just have it eat up my worth for the rest of my life, or I can own it. I can own that this was my experience, acknowledge that it wasn't what I wanted. And I can potentially do something with it that hopefully make someone else feel less alone so that they don't have to sit there in silence. Yes, they don't have to share their story with the world. But they can sit there and know that they aren't alone. And that this is shit, but that it does get better. Like I promise it gets better. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's what kept me going with my second child is because I had that perspective of having one already and going. I know they grow. I know, it changes. I know, this isn't forever. That was a pretty important thing for me being stuck in that. Because the first time it was just like, oh my god, is this ever going to end? This is? Assuming Yeah, yeah. So hearing that is pretty important, I think to know that it's not always going to feel and you're not always going to have these emotions. You're not always. And it's okay. Like, even if you don't have mental ill health, it is okay to acknowledge that motherhood and especially that newborn stage can be shaped Yes, it can be awesome. It can also be really, really hot. And I think it's so important that we talk about that because there are mothers out there who feel alone, like yes, they might not have a mental illness, but they still feel like they're suffering on their own. We don't want anyone to feel like that. And that whole sort of pressure that society has on us that it's like we've touched on, it's got to be a certain way, mothers should be able to do it. And if you ever complain about how hard it is, oh, well, you wanted to have children, you know, this way that society just shuts lately completely, like, oh, but you wanted to have a job? Why are you complaining about your job? Like, it's the same bullshit, but we don't say that to someone who got a nine to five and is complaining in nine to five, you know, we, it is ridiculous, but I mean, that experience Yes, it you know, was a way to process my own stuff, but it also motherhood and the experience I went through helped me I guess, figure out my own values or the values will already there, but it was the way I it was kind of pushing me that I had to start to actually live by my values, which obviously influenced the work that I'm doing. Yes, I am doing podcasting now, but I've always been a writer. Yeah, I've always been into creative writing and storytelling, and, you know, I always wanted to write a book, but on no way that doesn't pay the bills. I need a nine to five. So you know, it's this third podcasting. It's actually my way of sharing stories like that journalism, that storytelling that interviewee you know, that's coming back to those values. And yes, you know, we don't want to sit here and say, Oh, you've gone through should experience Um, here's the silver lining, but my silver lining is that, you know, going through what I went through, I realize just how important it is to. Yeah, not to shut ourselves down and to just go through. Yeah, to prioritize what we feel is important. And yes, it doesn't bring in the bills. But it's still important that that doesn't make it any less important. Hmm, but mental health advocacy is something I've always wanted to do long before I became a mom. Yeah, storytelling was something I always wanted to do. So this platform has allowed me to do both. And that that's why I don't feel like I'm working like I mean, I can't even call it a job. Like I said, I don't get paid. But it feels it's work. But it doesn't feel like work to me. I wake up in the morning, and I want to do it, and go to sleep at night thinking about it again. And it feels important, and so I wouldn't. Yeah, the experience of what I went through, made me realize just yeah, that that direct show that purpose, that meaningfulness I guess, came through all of the shitty stuff. Yeah. Tell me about your writing. So, like I said, I only started to kind of see myself as a creative person recently. I've always been a creative child, though, like the witch. Yeah, I, I guess I forgot about that. You know, I was always doing drawing or cross writing. I'm always trying to make something. I mean, it would could be terrible, but I was doing it anyway. Yeah, you know. But then, you know, as you get older, and me being who I am, you need that praise that validation. And so you lose touch with that creativity, because it doesn't get you got a pluses or the ticks or the, you know, you don't get a job out of it, really. And so that led me down the path of, you know, wanting to pursue things that did get me that praise that did get me that a plus and that validation. So you think that you're not good at creativity, because you're not getting that. That to me, being me, I'm a perfectionist as well. But in my spare time I wrote, I wrote a lot. So outside of school or doing homework, that was my outlet to understand the world or whatever I was going through. But again, I never got that success. I can remember, like, as one of our school English teachers, she was an actual author. And she'd set up a book club at school. And I was so excited because I thought I just want to be part of this. And I'd written a novel when I was like, 13, or something. And so I submitted it to her. And she said, Rick, I'm not going to read it, because that wouldn't be fair. And I'm glad she did it. In hindsight, because it was absolute trash. I, you know, it kind of broke my heart a little because I saw I wanted her to read it. And I'd be famous author. And anyway, so she said, Why don't you submit a smaller piece of work? And you know, if it's good, we'll go into the book club, because I think you'll be great in the book club. So I submitted this piece of work to her and I didn't get into the book. So you know, it just, I guess all of that either. Just reinforces that I wasn't very good. You know, you don't get that praise, you don't get the you think you're not good at it. So you don't want to pursue it. Right. Like it's very discouraging. So yeah, I spent those teenage years telling myself I was so creative, I wasn't good at that. So I needed to be I needed to do things I was good at. I was good at I was actually very good at writing essays, probably the story writing helped with that. But, you know, I was excellent at writing essays, I'll toot my own horn there. Even at uni, I would get the high distinctions and things. So I pursued those lines of study and work because that's what got me the, the tick of approval, like, then that you know, if other people are telling me I'm good at it, then that's what I have to pursue. So I would always come back to writing though, you know, after school, I'd take little short courses or creative writing courses, certificates, or whatever. And I did so many of them because I just loved telling stories. And I thought the more courses I do, the better I'll get at it. You know, you want to be the best at it. You don't want to do it. Unless you're good at it. Yeah, yeah. It's that whole, I guess that's a societal thing. But yeah, that need for a job would just come and swallow up any creativity. So I shifted the focus from maybe writing to becoming a book editor, because that in my mind would be the closest I'd get to being in that field. And, you know, potentially could hypothetically do some writing around the nine to five kind of thing I even did. My university degree was in English Literature writing, linguistics, journalism edit, you know, I did all of that. And I loved it. Don't get me wrong, but of course, it was the essays and the, you know, the linguistics that got me. You know, the top of the class and the high distinctions but not the creative stuff. This is horrible. story. I did a writing work At university, it was the one creative writing unit I did. And I never did another one, we had to write a short story, bring it to class, and the class would workshop, the story with you, you know, provide feedback, potentially structure or character development. Anyway, I wrote a story about my own experience with mental illness. So in my early 20s, right. And it was received very simply. So, you know, I got told by one person that I was perpetuating the stereotypes of depression, because the character I had in the story was sobbing all day, and couldn't get up and work and go to, you know, what, couldn't get up and go to work. But at the time, that's what I was experiencing. In my early 20s, there was a point where my husband who was, who was my boyfriend at the time, he would have to help me leave the bed carrying me while I was sobbing to the shower, because I couldn't physically get up and go to work, you know, he would be there, he would help me wash my hair, he would dry my hair with the hairdryer because I just, I couldn't function, you know, and that was my experience. And so I thought I'd write about that. And that would be my, that was me processing my experience. And yeah, I I know, it's a cliche. And I know, that's not depression for everyone. Believe me, I've had the opposite end of depression, where you're just so numb, that there's no tears believe that I've had. But that was my experience. And I wanted to write about that short period of my life. And you know, I had the lecturer and tutor tell me, well, I shouldn't write about things I don't know about clearly, I didn't know what I was writing about. Obviously, this is just reinforcing that I shouldn't be a writer, I shouldn't be, you know, creative, I shouldn't be doing anything that I'm not good at, quote, unquote. I shouldn't write about things I clearly don't know anything. It was, it was my own personal. I mean, obviously, it wasn't very good. Clearly, everyone was telling me it wasn't very good, which is fine. But you know, as to maybe they weren't very good. Meeting me, I just, you know, unless I was getting that recognition that what I was doing was good and worthwhile and helping someone else or whatever, I didn't want to do it. So that then, you know, reinforced that I shouldn't be doing writing or anything creative. So that really pushed me into the editing and publishing. And I didn't do any more creative writing units, because I just thought, I'm not good at it. I'm, yeah, this isn't for me, I thought I want to do it. But if I'm not getting that feedback, then not this isn't for me, I'm not good at it, I'll do something I'm good at, which is the things that get you the a plus and the tickets. And you know, and I did don't get me wrong, I love editing, and publishing, I did a few courses around that as well. I have this fascination with the English language or with language in general. So I ended up getting a job at my university. I'm on Matt Lee from an hour, but I was an English language specialist. And I would edit documents and write glossary definitions. And I'd work in the data team and analyze data from that language point of view, rather than number seven. It was meaningful and fulfilling. And that was as close to creativity as I was gonna get. But it was still a real job in quote, marks, and I was enjoying it, potentially, because I was being praised for it, because I was good at it. And then obviously, becoming a mom, you know, your whole world and identity and opinion of yourself and values change. And, you know, I'm sitting here and it's like, yes, I would love that nine to five, but I want to do something that makes me excited to wake up in the morning that I'm doing something meaningful that I'm living to my values. So and again, I still don't see myself as a podcaster. Deep down my little my, my inner self still says sees myself Oh wants to see myself as a writer. Because that's how I've always wanted to see myself. Yeah. So you know, telling stories is a big part of what I do on Instagram, not just others, but my own and just little snippets here and there. And that that provides me the most. It's cathartic in a way for me, but yeah, that provides me the most meaningful and purposeful, you know, activity anyway, that's like I said, it's the I still don't see myself as a podcaster because I'm still figuring out but yeah, I guess now I I'm learning that I don't have to be great at something to enjoy doing it. And that's taking what don't get me wrong. I'm not 100% there yet, they'll still be a part of me that wants to be the best at everything and wants to know what I'm doing before actually do it. I don't want to learn by doing it because I don't want to be you know, it's that mentality that takes a while to get out of to break out. Oh, so like I said, I spent the last year just trying to figure out how to actually podcast and I would do so much and I do so much on the back end. So that actually now that I'm starting to podcast, it's coming easy, because I invested so much time into the back end But there was no way I was going to do it. At the start, at this time last year was actually when I set up my ABN and stuff. And anyway, but yeah, it. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. But that's no. That's the thing that you're conscious of things that you want to improve or change. You know, that's, you know, a step ahead of most people, I think a lot of people go through life just oblivious to their behaviors or the way their behaviors affect others or things that they could, you know, change in their lives that would make life better for them. So, you know, good on Yeah, I know where I need to improve. Am I getting there slowly? Well, I get there, 100%, maybe not, I'm still, you know, those perfectionist tendencies that, you know that you hold on to that criticism, slowly unlearning that, but you know, and that's okay. I don't have to be perfect at not being. Yeah, a lot of what you're saying I can really resonate with. I mean, I think I'm a little bit older than you, I'm in my 40s. And I've got to a place now where I just don't give a shit of what people think anymore. And that is so different to the person I was growing up. I was so with what people thought that feedback was so important to me. You know, I, like you've said about situations where people have given you feedback that, you know, it wasn't what you wanted to hear, and it stopped you from doing things I've done that. And at this point in my life, I just think if I want to do something, I'll do it. And I don't care. So yeah, it's possible. It's possible and it's so freeing when you start caring what other people think it's a wonderful feeling it like you're just living your life the way you want to live it and, like, God, I would be, I'd be walking down the street as a teenager. And I would, I would tell myself, the stories in my head that are that person that just drove past in that car, they were judging my genes that they weren't the right. Like I would create all these things in my head. And then yeah, as you grew up, we just go, no, that didn't happen because people don't give a shit. Everyone's worried about themselves. Everyone's even if they were judging my genes. That's their problem. Yeah, exactly. Good. Yeah. No, it is. It's an amazing feeling. And you just think, My God, why couldn't I be like this when I was young? How much suffering did we have to go? To learn what we've learned? Now? You know that? Yeah. But the good side is that, you know, it's gonna be, you know, God willing, I live that long, but it's gonna be good next half of my life. Totally. And what a good example to set for your kids. Really? Oh, yes. Yeah, teaching them that it's okay to not actually care that other people will let you have to bend yourself over backwards to accommodate other people's. Whatever. Yeah, I think that that's a huge thing that we're unlearning and that we get to teach our children. Hmm. Yeah, I'm, I'm excited, I guess, for the future to see and hope that our kids don't carry that bullshit with them until they're in their 30s or 40s. Or whatever, that they can maybe live a little without that fear of judgment, or fear of upsetting someone else. Dramatic, you know, just by being themselves. Yeah, exactly. And making no apologies for how, how they want to dress and what music they want to listen to me. Ah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I talk to all my moms about this, this topic of mom guilt. And I find it really interesting. It's something that I'm, I don't know why I'm so interested in it. Because I hate it so much. And I wish you're allowed to be you just but yeah, what's your take on it? I mean, I do believe mom guilt is real. I haven't quite decided if it's based on you know, the way we compare ourselves or our unrealistic expectations that we have of motherhood, although unrealistic expectations society gives us about another. I don't know if it's that or if there is some intrinsic component to mom guilt, but it's definitely real and it does. rear its ugly head, I guess, in so many contexts. You know, there's so many shorts, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And I, I'm guilty of it. I'm guilty of Mongo, I still feel like I should be doing more or spending more time with my son and you know, potentially if I wasn't working a little bit on the podcast, and maybe I could cook a better meal for him more, you know, whatever it is, but I'm also Learning. And again, this is a slow process, I'm learning to be self compassionate Sure, I could push myself beyond my, you know, human limits him to be better. But what would that wouldn't actually make the guilt go away or just make it appear in another way or in another form? Yeah, the context, there's no winning, you know, there's always going to be something better. There's always something going to be more you could be doing and then there's more sacrifices you make on yourself, and what's the cost? So I'm trying to learn to just, it's there, and it sucks. But I'm trying to keep it as background noise and trying not to let it control me because I don't think it would benefit myself or my son, or myself to be a mother who sacrifices 100% of my own wants and needs to be better, right? I don't think it's benefiting either of us. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So in one go, it's there and it sucks. But yeah, it's just learning to, I don't know, I don't like I said, I don't know where it comes from, or if it can ever go away, but I'm learning that if it's there, it can stay there, but I'm just gonna not try to feed into it or let it control my motherhood or my human experience, really, ya know, that it's so true. It's like when you say, you know, if you did do something, then something else would suffer. And then you feel guilty about that. And then if you do, then you feel guilty about that. It's like, it's just this constant juggling thing, you know, especially in motherhood, we talk about this work life balance, and I don't know if it actually exists, I think we're all just struggling to find that balance, or that ideal balance and really just doesn't exist, because you could be at work, you're feeling guilty, you're not at home, you're at home, you're feeling guilty, you're not working and there is or I could be exercise, or I should be doing this, I should be doing that. And there is no winning, there is no balance, because to have that balance, you've made that piece. And you know that you're doing 100% Yeah, do that. Is it possible? Yeah, it's impossible. So I'm, yeah, it's there. And it sucks. And I'm learning just to let it sit there and to just sit in that discomfort that it will exist, and I'm doing my best. And it will tell me, I could be doing more or I could be doing better, or that there is a different definition of best. Just trying to Yeah, let it just be let it lets myself sit with it and just do what I'm doing anyway. Yeah. Now, that's really good advice. I think that thing of being kind to ourselves, and not making ourselves feel guilty for feeling guilty, you know, just, you know, had an eye as long as you you'd like someone to put a post up the other day. And I just thought this is the epitome of life, you know, if you can take your child into bed, who's fed and loved. And, you know, I just think that we've made it you know, if your child wakes up in the morning with a smile on his face, and I don't know, I agree, because like you said, there are so many shoulds. And so social media just feeds into that or you should be bottle feeding or co sleeping or not put you shouldn't use a dummy you shouldn't use you shouldn't that and you get so caught up in doing it right and feeling like you're doing it wrong. But as you said, if your kids alive, if they're happy, you've got a roof over your head, you're doing everything bloody right? There is no wrong in that situation. And I wish we could say that more, we get so caught up on what we should or shouldn't be doing. And everyone's got a different opinion. And really, as you said, or as that quote said, I think I saw it yesterday on your stories, but you kids fed, they're happy there's a roof over your head, they're in a warm bed. You're the best mother for them, you're doing everything right, drown out everything else, because it's not doing any favors. Really. Hmm. Absolutely. And you also touched on that, that sort of context that that idea of martyrdom about giving up everything of yourself, that it's just like you just think I'd be crazy than what I am. To do. Every single moment of my time to my children. I just think, I don't know, a lot of people I talk to through the podcast, you know, creative women who weren't doing something before they had a child. And just because they happen to have a child doesn't mean that that creativity and that need to create and the outlet and the release and the regulation that they get from creating just dissipates you know, it's it's it's such a i don't i It's a ridiculous notion. For some women. Being a mother 100% of the time actually is fulfilling and meaningful to them and hats off to them. For other women. That's not the case. And we need to make space for both. There's no right or wrong, that you know, if you are 100% fulfilled in motherhood and you know, meeting the needs of your children, then go for it. No one is stopping you for other months. I know for me, I'm I don't know, if it's an only child thing, I'm an only child, I need my space. I don't care if it's to do nothing, I need my space from other people. And that includes my son, I love the kid, I love being able to see him smile and try new foods or play with him. Love him. I need my space. Yeah, one of your questions on the page was in terms of identity. And yes, I mean, I don't know if it's necessarily important for me to see myself as being more than just a mother. There's nothing wrong with being just a mother. But I always wanted to be a mother. But I think it's important for me to be someone who lives according to her values. And someone who acknowledges that I do have my own needs and my own wants, and that's okay. That's actually okay. I'd never really wanted to be a crew person. But I also didn't want to be a stay at home mom, I guess. And trying to find that balance between the two extremes was important, I guess. And I'm still trying to figure that out. I want to work but I also want to raise my son, but I also want to meet my own needs and live by my values and explore my own interests. And whether those changes, I just want to be able to do that. I don't know if I'll ever find that balance. But it's important to me that, you know, I meet my own needs. And it's important that my son can see that I am my own person. And, you know, if one day I want to be just a mother, or I'll devote 100% My time to them, I'll go with that, if that's intrinsically what I want to be doing. But I guess for me, it's important that I'm doing what intrinsically feels right. And just trying to balance being a mum, figuring out my own sheep, you know, healing and pursuing my own interests and giving myself the opportunity to do that without labeling it as good or bad. Without being able to judge myself or say, Well, I'm not good at it, I shouldn't do it, or it's not bringing in, you know, it's not paying the bills, therefore, I shouldn't even try, you know, it's just trying to fit it in, around all the other shit. You know, and I guess that probably goes to your other question about day to day. Creativity, like, how does that work? I mean, there is no structure to my day, it just whatever feels right. Like, if I feel like playing with my son, I'm gonna play with him. Or if I feel like doing podcast stuff, I'll work around his schedule. So for some background information here, my my husband's in the military. So up until two weeks ago, he was deployed for the whole year. So when my son, yeah, sorry, when my son was six months old, my husband got deployed out of Sydney. So he was still in Australia. But he was in intensive training, he was allowed to come home every blue moon for 24 hours. But then he had to go back. So yeah, I was solo parenting my son for a whole year up until two weeks ago. And I mean, I didn't go back to a, you know, my office job because with, I mean, I've been sick as well. I've had glandular fever for the last six months. So you know, everything that could happen could go wrong. This has but insane that I'm surprised myself with I guess, growing up, I always had that narrative in my head that I was not capable. I'm not capable of coping. I'm not an independent person. I need to rely on other people. I'm not an adult, you know, you tell yourself that stuff. And then you're thrown into the deep end and you're like, oh, shit, I can actually cope. Well, yes, we're not in Thrive mode. We're definitely in survival mode this year. But I did it. I actually did it. And I raised my son and not just that, I also got to work on something I was really, really passionate about. Yeah, in the background. Yeah. So in terms of day to day stuff with me and my son, it was just when he was having a nap, I would quickly try to do some podcasting stuff or when he'd go to bed at night. I'm I'm such a night owl. I get so much done. Night. But that was my me time I could, you know, sit down and figure out okay, what podcasting platform do I want to use or what's my calendar system that people can book through and I'll do my website. You know, I was just working on it piece by piece by piece and it's hard when you're in that moment because you think I'm not getting anywhere. But when you look back and it's like it she'd look at all this stuff that I've done, like, look, oh my god, it's actually I actually did all of that. And it was just little moments, little moments that I could just slowly build. And again, I wasn't getting feedback from that this was me doing something that felt right. And that was all the feedback or motivation that I needed is that it just felt purposeful. It felt meaningful. But yeah, I mean, that's not to say it was easy. My son, at eight months old, decided he didn't like sleeping in the car anymore. This was a kid who slept in a car. From the moment he was born, he was such a chill, calm, baby, all of a sudden, he wants to co sleep. So you know, there I am. Nine o'clock at night rocking him to sleep in my house, because he wouldn't sleep in the car, he wouldn't sleep alone, he had to be on me or near me. And then I was finally going to eat dinner once I was able to feel confident enough to you know, roll him off me. Then I could go be a human, have a shower, have dinner, and then I could go potty. And that's hard. It's hard solo parenting. And I'm so you know, lucky, my husband, I didn't have to go back to a nine to five job because you don't we could financially afford for me to be at home with our son, you know, working on my mental health, my physical health looking after my son who brought home every day care illness. He was there three days a week. And I swear this year, he was home more than he was actually at daycare because he'd been so sick. And then I'd catch whatever he caught. And it was just, we're definitely surviving. But just any moment that I could just do something for myself on top of, you know, having a shower or brushing my teeth and eating. Like, it was a hard game. It's a very hard. I've got so much respect for you seriously. Because what are my Lord days is my nightmare. Seriously, I just, I just I feel I always feel so incapable. When I when I had my first, like, real episode, I suppose. After my son was born, the thought in my head was, I can't do this. I can't do this. I don't know what to do. Which was ridiculous. Because I worked in childcare for years before I had him. So I knew how to look after children. You know, but it was just this irrational. I can't do this. And it took me a long, long time to even after I was, you know, medicated and things were honestly getting back to normal. Yeah, I was like, Ah, I can't know what I'm doing what's, you know, just this doubt, serious self doubt. And similar thing when my husband got COVID, earlier in the year, and so we're really trying to isolate him away from the rest of us. And my first thought was, oh, shit, I'm gonna say, How am I going to do it all myself, but then I actually did do it. And I was actually fine. And I think because, because I knew that there was no other option. It was like, I just had to do it. And so I actually didn't struggle that much. Because I was really accepting of the situation I was in and was like, okay, not saying, you know, it wasn't hard. And everything was wonderful. But I didn't let myself get to those extremes where I'd get to a complete meltdown. Because I knew that there was no saving me like, there was nothing. I mean, you know, and I think as well, we tell ourselves these stories that we can't do it. And yet when we're actually in a situation, yes, it's hard. But we've hate hearing I am like, what actually surviving and it's that build up? You know, I think a big part of my episode was, obviously I was in the hospital and all I could keep thinking was, how the fuck am I going to do this? When my husband's away next year? You know, this last? How the hell am I going to get through this? How am I going to cope? I can't even look after myself. How the hell am I going to look after the sun? I'm in this hospital. There's mothercraft nurses and pediatricians and psychologists around me all day was great. Am I gonna do this? Yeah, but I did. Yeah, I did. And we just figured it out. And it was hard. But we did it. But it's that build up and mental illnesses is mean, it is so mean to us. It tells us we can't do anything. It tells us we can't cope. It tells us we're incompetent. And that, you know, then you play into the other kids deserve better and Oh, but other people can cope. Why can't I? Yeah. And it's a bully. And really, the reality is we can actually do hard things and it sucks. Do not get me wrong. It sucks. But we can do it. And when you're in those moments, you just do it. There's no doubting yourself because you are actually doing it. Yeah, yeah, that was that was one of the words that I tell myself to help myself out of things when I'd get this. I can't do it. And I'd say no, but I am actually doing it right now. When I am doing it, you know, just to tell myself a different story and to trick my brain. Yes, we have to trick our brain because it's tricking us. Yes, yes. Yeah, it is. It's it is tricking us. And I know I, with my music I've, I've given my list posole depression, this persona of the wolf, I call it I've written I'm working on an album at the moment where the whole the whole album is about, it's called Wolf. And it's about the whole journey. And it's each song is a is a tiny little time frame of how I felt at different times. And it literally, that's how it felt it was consuming me it was this thing that wasn't me. Even though it was existing within me, and it was attacking me it was taking all the good things away, and it was making me scared and vulnerable. Sorry, I'm getting goose bumps. It's like, it's just this thing that inhabits you, you know, like people called the, the, you know, the black dog, you know, it's just, it's just this thing. And yeah, we can we can tell a different story. You know, it's, I mean, I don't That sounds so simplistic, but when you're in like you said before, when you're in the wind, it's really happening when you're in these episodes, you can't do anything, there is no, there is no rational thought there's no way of controlling but when you start to come out in the help of, you know, professionals and what have you, and then you can start to sort of rewire and, and what do they call that cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever it is, like telling yourself a different story, taking out the shirts, oh, we should do this, we should do. You know, that was one of the things someone said to me at one stage, take out the shirts, there's no shirt, it's you might do this or you might think about doing this or you know, just change the way around things simple things like that can make a massive difference. Going back to identity, not just motherhood, but mental illness, it feels like a part of you, it feels like who you are, it feels like your identity. So being able to separate yourself from those thoughts from that experiences is very hard to do. As you said, coming out of that you're able to look at it as something different, you're able to look at it as a wolf or whatever personification you give it. Because you're able to see that it's happening to you, but it's not you. And that's very, very powerful. And for me, that was where storytelling came in. The more I wrote about it, the more I tried to be poetic about my experience, or to just even just journal it I started to see it as not me, not my identity. And that's when your that's when you're healing. I know firsthand how easy it is to feel like this is who you are, and therefore it's you that's broken or it's it's never gonna get better because you're not getting better. You know, you you tell yourself these things that yeah, in terms of identity it Yeah, it's all consuming. Yeah. And that's the thing. There was no way when I was in the throes of the real depths. There was no way I was separating it out. I was there it was me you know, and it was the same gynecologist that I you know made the off the cuff comment Well, you could have just fixed it with one pill a day yes I pragmatic. He's he's an awesome bike and I have a great relationship with Him any he said he said you know, it's it's a chemical imbalance in your brain. That's what it is. It's a chemical imbalance in your brain. Yeah, and it was like right there you go. It's not me it's no it's I night and that really gave me the power to say I am not in control of this. I physically cannot. So I had this horrible experience between I had between having my two children where am I safe a friend I put the quotes because I don't see this person anymore or associated with it because of this next told me that that mental illness and depression don't exist because you should be able to keep yourself well by affirmations positive affirmations like that before. And I just You have no idea you have not experienced what I've experienced like and that was even before I had the big episode. The second child it's like Sure. I'm not dismissing the fact that you know if you're a generally well person, if you don't have massive chemical imbalances in your brain, sure keeping yourself you know, mentally well through positive thinking and eating well and exercising that that's great, but when you actually are so unwell severely unwell It's no amount of putting positive affirmations, it's good to save it. Like, it's not even on the radar night. And I think like you said, it's not to just dismiss the importance of that stuff eating well exercising, it is important. And it's very useful. Potentially, when you are in that mild category, you know, or if you had a bad experience, you know, and we're not even talking trauma, we're just talking something negative has happened in your life, going and doing those things. Even just a little talk therapy affirmation, they're so helpful, there's no doubting it. But there is a difference between, you know, feeling a little depressed, or a little anxious or depressed or a little anxious versus having the illness, there's a big difference. And again, it's not to invalidate those feelings, but the illness is something entirely different. And I'm, I'm with you, I see a lot of that on social media, I see a lot of all mental illness isn't real, or it's just a societal problem. And if we fix society would don't get me wrong. There are societal factors that do impact our mental health. It is an illness, like for God's sake, we need to stop invalidating it. Because this is the reason people don't get help. This is the reason stigma exists. There's so much so much misinformation about it. And sadly, this is the reason some people die. You're made to feel like it's your fault, you're positive. If you didn't do enough to prevent it, you didn't do enough to think positively, you didn't do enough to exercise. I was exercising four or five times a week during my pregnancy, I was eating well, pregnancy was physically the healthiest time in my entire life. I was also the most mentally unwell I ever was in my entire life. You know, we can throw these things out. And so you could just join I was journaling like we can do. I was seeing a psychologist, I was doing everything right, ticking all the boxes. It doesn't matter. It does not discriminate. And it is an illness. You know, give yourself some grace for that. Like it. Like I said before, I blamed myself a lot. I thought I'm doing everything right. I should have prevented this. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. How much more suffering Do we go through? Because we think of it they fought their way out of it all, but they just exercised and felt better. They went for a walk. Why isn't that fixing me? We suffer so much more because of this misinformation because of I don't know people, people aren't like this with physical illness. It's not like I'm gonna yell at my kidney for not producing enough insulin if I had diabetes. But we we dismiss anything in our mind because we think we have control over it. Really, we're only cognizant of what 10% Of our brain like it just does my head in that we still have these attitudes. It's 2022. Like, come on. But yeah, you still see it on social media, if you just take these vitamins, if you just work on your, you know, oh, you're clearly deficient in this might joke at me. Yes, having a balanced diet, having our, you know, vitamins and nutrients all important, but that is not the cure. Like we need to stop pushing it as the cure. Because it's not. Yeah, and yeah, I whenever I say stuff like that, I just think they that person who's wearing it, they have no idea. They actually have no idea. And they're seeing life in this fanciful sort of rose colored glasses sort of way. They've never suffered. No one ever struggled in that from actual mental illness, you know, and I just, I get so mad. I just have to unfollow people or block people. I just think there's no, there's no debating with people like that. They've got their heart ingrained views, they're not gonna listen to, you know, make writing a comment. But I do think sometimes when there's a big backlash to something in the media, like a celebrity said something, and everyone jumps on him. They're the times when people with these, you know, perhaps don't understand, have this glimpse into maybe understanding I don't know, like, I remember years ago, this has gone back ages Belkin was one of our killers, friends passed away through suicide. And he wrote this big thing on his Facebook. I'm sorry, you couldn't hold on for us. I'm sorry. It's like this had nothing to do with you. It had nothing to do with anybody else. And people jumped on him. And he and he was writing it from a point of view that he'd experienced seeing someone with depression. Right. And so people were saying, you obviously have never experienced this yourself. And it was a real big thing. And he kept turned around and said, I'm really sorry, didn't say, you know, and so moments like that, I sort of hold on to hope that other people will see that and go Oh, actually, maybe I don't understand this. Yeah, but yeah, in everyday stuff you There's no, there's no debating with these people that that's what they believe. And you're never going to change them. But I just hope, yeah, society. Yet it really pisses me off like it's done someone with a broken leg, you're not going to go along and kick their crutches away and say, Come on, you can control yourself fix your leg, you know? Yeah, I feel like sometimes going around with a T shirt. Like, I haven't been to where it's like, okay, so like, do I need a sign saying like, Be nicer to me? Like, I don't know, it just it shouldn't be that way. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I wouldn't wish it on those people. Because unfortunately, sometimes the only way you know is if you have gone through it personally. Yeah. But I mean, I wouldn't wish on them to know it. But yeah, unfortunately, there is still so much misinformation about mental health and so much bullshit, really so much that people don't know well, that they think they know. Yes, they think they know because they might have seen it, or they've had it or they felt a little bit depressed about something. One point in time, but it's very different from the illness, like very different. And I wish Yeah, I wish we didn't have to justify the illness. No one with diabetes has to I mean, sometimes people, you know, they weighed shame or whatever, oh, it's your own fault. It's not your fault. Like for God's sake, whether it's a physical illness or mental illness, we need to stop this shaming of people who aren't 100% Well, all the time, you know, it's not their own fault. It has is it something like gestational diabetes as well during pregnancy? There's so much blame and this mis misinformation that you caused it yourself. You weren't eating right enough. You weren't, you know, exercising, and it's nothing to do with that for God's sake. In terms of your support network, what does that look like for you? I mean, one of the best support networks if I can be honest, is the fact my son went to daycare like three days. That helped. You know, my mom and my dad have been an enormous help like practically, especially with my husband being away so they come help look after Pejic sorry, for my son punchy is what it is. nickname. Well, when I was pregnant, my bump we called it my punch. So it just the poor kid the name has just stuck. And even all my friends and family has punched doing my budget like the politics of tour. It stuck with him. But yeah, they all come over look after pajetta Yeah, I'm all look after some of the practical stuff around the house, especially when I was in the real real pits of glandular and I couldn't move, I was sleeping all day. And no matter how much I slept, I was still tired. You know, I was lucky my parents, they yesterday like an hour away in traffic, but they were still able to come over every now and then and help out and stay. And especially with both of us, me and being sick. Like, that was such a big help. I still have a psychologist. I still say my psychiatrist through the mother and baby unit Hospital, which is phenomenal. And yeah, obviously I had my husband via FaceTime and stuff, which I get a you know, it's not the same, but thank God for technology. Yeah, thank God, we have that stuff. So yeah, in a way I was. I was supported in that aspect. Maybe more. So for the practical stuff and the mental health stuff in terms of the artistic work creative stuff. And I still don't quite see myself as that just yet. We're working on that. I really don't think I had anyone to draw on. I don't have friends who really I don't know anyone who has their own business or who, you know, made a living out of something creative. So this is like I said, it's all very, very new to me, I'm still figuring this out. As I go. I'm teaching myself I'm learning. I mean, social media has been good in that sense that you create that community and you then are in touch with a lot of other women who are trying to be creative or they're trying to make a business out of something that they're passionate about. And so you do have that solidarity. Um, I guess none of us have it completely figured out but yeah, just doing the best we can and learning as we go. I like I said the support I've had has been very good I don't know, I've been very self taught. I guess I wish I wish I had someone to say how do I actually do this? So what the hell is an ABN? Like, either I'm really going from scratch. Yeah, yeah. I like that on social media. Like if I see if I see something, I think only 61 day. One of you think is like, how did you do that? I want to do that. Literally, my son's asleep in my arms, and I'm sitting there, whether it's two hours, however long he's having a nap, he won't move from my arms. I'll sit there on camera and just have a play, you know, and it's not perfect, but I'm just Oh, this looks good. I'm trying to do everything free, right? Like, I'm sure I could pay for extra or I could pay someone to do it for me, but I'm trying to do it all myself. I'm trying to do it as cheaply and freely as possible. So I'll just have a play. And if it looks alright, if I feel happy with it, then I'll post it. And yeah, I like I said, I wish I had someone just I just use this template or make my life a bit easier. But yeah, it's just figuring it out as I go. And if I'm playing while he's asleep, then I might learn something, or I might learn how not to do. I'm still learning either way. Really? Yeah. No, I love that. I think that's, that's awesome. I part of my experience of not wearing what people thought, I basically just jumped in and did it, because I had all my software from singing. So and I love editing. So there's that. But then same thing, like the things that you spent time on beforehand. I literally just did it by the seat of my pants, because I'm like, I really want to do this. And I'm going to do it right now. Yeah, so it's like, it can work either way you can make it work, however, it suits your personality. And I think for myself, I had to justify that, okay, if I want this to be real, then I have to know what I'm doing. And I have to do it. Like I have to put all the pieces together in the right order and do it slowly so that I can justify that this is going to be a valid thing. Not that I'm just I don't know, I mean, going to identity. I know this is such a stereotype. But you know, the whole the stereotype of Oh, you're just a mum, and you're working on a passion project while you're on maternity leave. I didn't want it to be just that I wanted to work against that narrative that, Oh, I get to, you know, play around with this passion project while my husband works a nine to five to financially support me so that I can work on this passion project. I really wanted to work against that narrative. And I wanted to be against that stereotype. And I wanted to be able to monetize and make it legit and real, not just something I'm slapping to get. I don't know, I wanted to be able to work against the stereotype and contribute to the family. I mean, I haven't done that yet. You know, not I haven't really challenged the stereotype, but in a way as well, sorry. You've mentioned on them the question she like the values we have as a society, on art and on creativity. And that narrative works against it. Right. Like we so I wanted to work against that stereotype. But I guess in doing so I'm just perpetuating the stereotype that creativity or women's work just doesn't matter unless it brings in money, you know? Yeah. And I think it is safe to say we just don't value art in society, which is ironic because we, we consume so much of it, whether it's art, whether it's listening to podcasts, or music, or watching movies, TV shows, even the design that goes into advertising, we consume so much of it, and yet we don't value the work behind it. Because it doesn't pay the bills. We are in a capitalist society unless they you know, we value competition, we value activities that can be monetized. But because it doesn't pay the bills, even I don't see myself as a creative person. Like I said, because I'm not really I'm not a real Podcast. I'm not a real writer, because that avenue of work is not bringing in money for me. At this point in time. As much as you know, somebody wants to sponsor me, I'll take it. Meaning to mean on the list and I'm doing it because it feels right. And I will go back to my job next month. But my nine to five job I should say, but I'm still going to be doing this and I've told my husband this is still a priority for me around mothering around my nine to five. Being able to share these stories and tell stories and advocate and educate about maternal mental health is something I hope to be doing. For the rest of my life. I will advocate for more mother and baby psychiatric hospitals. I think to the day I die because I don't think a lot unless something else happens in my life and that becomes the focus of my attention. That's my passion. You know, and I want I want to keep doing that. And I don't think if I stopped doing that, I don't think I'd be living authentically. As much as it doesn't bring in the bills. You know, I don't see it as real or important or valuable. Because it's not seen that way by other people because it's not bringing in money. And that's that's just what Yeah, so I'm yeah, I'm in this weird space of you know, not wanting to be the stereotypical mom on maternity leave just doing a passion project while hobbies at nine to five and then. But yeah, I'm, I guess in a way I'm perpetuating that because I'm because it's not bringing in money. I'm. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a minefield. Bullshit. Yeah, it's a frustrating one, that it's something that I've gotten more and more annoyed about. More I talk to people, and I've particularly on I've told this story a million times. So I'm sorry, if you've already heard this story. The, during the lockdown. And I say that I didn't really suffer too much. I wasn't like Melbourne was like, you know, the most lockdown city in the world or something. But we, we saw the sport continue. Yeah. All these these these AFL football as we're moving around the country continuing to play sport, and then money and for all the the TV companies with the right so you know, that was really important, apparently. So they kept going. But you know, all of the art stopped all of the gigs, all of the music, all that stuff. And it really annoyed me because like you said, we consume so much art and the the result of creativity of people. We're all sitting on our asses watching Netflix. I mean, who do you think made that? You know, like, it just really annoyed me. But that's how society views art and creativity. And like, ironically, to get through the lockdown, a lot of us turned to not necessarily creating but consuming at all. Yeah, like schools, like teachers would just say, Look, don't don't do all this maths homework, go paint a picture, go read a book, go do something creative and meaningful. And that was therapeutic. And we turned to that in those times when it was hard. And we know the value of it, we know how valuable it is on paper for our own therapy for our own meaningfulness for our own values and purpose. We know how valuable it is. But because there's not that monetary benefit, we don't value it as a society. So once locked down lifts, okay, we can all go back to normal and West, we're not going to prioritize art as therapy, or we're not going to, you know, look after our creative, you know, ourselves, there's so many different parts of ourselves that are practical self, our physical self, our creative stuff, when we're going to prioritize that part of ourselves. Because we just need to resume our, you know, nine to five activities, we need to contribute to the economy. Like, that's all that's seen as important. And I believe me, I understand why we have to go into lockdown to protect all of us, you know, I get it. It's still just, it's upsetting that there was some things that were prioritized over others. And you know, you do see society through a clear lens when you are in those situations where you see what we value. And ironically, we do value because that's what we were consuming. Yeah. That's not what society or our economy per se values. Because it's not got $1 attached to really, yeah, really frustrates me when you were growing up your mum, what sort of sort of role modeling did you get from your mom in terms of what a mother could look like? I suppose. I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up my grandmother here as well because I was very largely raised by my grandma. So my grandparents migrated from Italy in their 20s, I guess, they set up shop, they had kids. So in terms of mothering, from my grandmother's point of view, mothering was her whole life. Yeah. You know, you did everything for your children. You cooked for them, you cleaned for them. That was your Go. And I think as well, having that migrant background, you know, you do that for your kids so that they can go and succeed. So I guess mothering was her identity, or being a domestic worker, I guess, was the identity, that was her only role in life. But that's also a cultural thing, you know. And then, from my mother's perspective, my mother, you know, did go study and become that career woman. Because I guess, and I mean, maybe this is just my interpretation of it. But growing up with the migrant family, and that expectation that you have to do something with your life, they didn't suffer, they didn't sacrifice all of this for you to just not do it, you know, you want to succeed, you want to be good at what you're doing. And my mom was an excellent career woman. And I guess, as a mother was, I had those two extremes I had Korean woman and then I had the domestic and I'm, I guess, I don't know, where I see myself. Like I said, I'm trying to find that middle ground. That's not to say my mother wasn't mothering, or that my grandmother didn't have a job because she did have a job at some point. But in terms of the priorities, my own mother then carried the, I think, again, this is just my interpretation she carried that maybe the migrant mentality of you need to do everything for your children, my mother just did it in the sense of providing financially. Yeah, you know, it's you, she wanted me to go to a good school and to study and to work, you know, in order to do that it wasn't to stay at home, it was to go out and work and work her ass off, to be able to put me into private school or put, you know, just have that bit of life or have provide things that maybe she didn't have, you know, it's it's that cycle. And I don't know if it's a, I don't know, if it's a cultural thing, or a migrant thing, I don't know. But yeah, in terms of motherhood, I guess I had both examples of wanting to do everything for your child, but either way, whether it was through the home or through work, it was doing everything for your children, that was nice for you. And, yeah, I guess that that's something I'm trying to navigate, you know, I'm, I can genuinely say, I'm sorry, to my son, I'm not the mother, that's gonna do everything for him. You know, whether that's a good or bad thing I don't, I know that if I go down that road, that pressure will eat at me, I will not be an authentic person, and I will not be a healthy person. Because you know, even before I became a mother, you know, wanting to emulate that and have a career and push myself to my extremes. That's when the mental illness creeps in. Right? So I'm trying to find this balance between wanting to be the best mom I can for my son versus not sacrificing my sanity, or my passions, or my my soul. You know, I want to find that balance where, yes, my son is important. And I want him to feel important, and that I will do anything for him. But not at the cost of I don't know, I don't want to work until nine o'clock at night, or I don't want to just focus on the housework all day, every day. Like I want to find that balance. You're and I don't know what that looks like. I'm I'm figuring that out as I go. But yeah, yeah, I guess not. Motherhood was modeled like that. There was no creativity. There wasn't and, yeah, but that's okay. That was their experience. And that's what they did to survive. And, you know, obviously, I respect the work that they did, and how hard they worked for their children. You know, that's, that's the cultural attitude that I do want to take, I want my son to know, I worked hard so that he can have a roof of recital that, you know, we can then go out and play it, but I want also to enjoy the time with him. And not? Yeah, I don't know, I think this was probably the question that I struggled the most trying to think about. From your navigate that, do you think also in that you're, you're in context of working hard, is that working, and I feel like this, I feel like this for myself. So you may or may not feel like working hard on your own mental wellness, so you can be there for your child and you can meet their needs, in a way that you're happy with. And that, you know, is good for your child. I mean, that's a big priority for me. And it always has been before I became a mother, you know, with my prior experiences of mental health, I took my mental health very seriously. You know, I had been in therapy, probably since I was 16. Like just being able to work through that stuff. And I'd always said I didn't want to take it into motherhood. I didn't want my son to bear that burden. You Hmm. So I really focused on the skills and the therapy and the healing during my 20s. But I guess that kind of worked in a backwards way for me because it became that fixation. Like I said, at the start, pregnancy, I was consumed with planning for postpartum. And a big part of that was that first of all, I didn't want mental illness to get in the way of the earth or my parenting. But I also didn't want it to be something that my son inherited, I guess, by having that fixation it inevitably. Yeah, it worked against me, because I was, I was mentally ill. And I just didn't see it. I was so focused on postpartum that I just, I was really in denial about what I was going through through pregnancy. And, you know, it wasn't until I got to postpartum that I had that acute crisis episode that I was, you know, admitted to hospital that I was doing the best I could. And there's no such thing as 100% perfectly healed or recovered as much as I would like to think that or, as much as I held on to that belief that I could be cured and would never ever impact my son. I know now that healing, being imperfect, but still working on my healing is the best thing I can do for myself. It is absolutely best thing I can do for him in that working on myself acknowledging my own bullshit, being self aware, that is the best thing I can do for him not being perfect, like that perfectionism, or holding on to being perfect or cured or happy all the time would actually be more damaging to him. Then a mother who acknowledges her own shit, and is trying to work on it and apologizes. And like, that's what's gonna help him in the long run. Yeah. Yeah. And like, that's always been a priority, clearly, but now I'm approaching it from a different perspective. Yeah, no, I think like my eldest son's 14, and has his own issues with mental health. And I think it's really important to role model as a parent, that, you know, things are really hard. But if you're, if you put in the work, and you utilize the tools around you, and the things that you have access to, then that's really it is really important to it is you can't just sweep it under the rug, and you can't think everything's going to be fine. It's like you, you have to do the work. And it's as shitty as it is. And as horrible as it is. And he's had times where he's, he's hidden particular things from me, because he was like, Oh, I know, if I told you, I would have had to go back and talk to, like his counselor, he just didn't want to have to start the whole cycle. Again, it's like, this is what it is, it'll always be this, there'll be times in your life, where it will you rise up again, and you'll have to address it. You know, and I know, I've had times where I've finally found it very difficult to hide, you know, emotions, or episodes or things that I'm going through. And I sort of feel bad for that, because I sort of think my kids shouldn't have to bear the burden of, of, of my illness. At the same time, I sort of think this is our reality. And this is what would have happened, you know, 50 6070 years ago, everything was hidden. And that's probably why we have these issues with stigma and, and not understanding because it was so hidden away. So yeah, there's a balance there that I struggle with at times, but I think it is important that people know, and your kids know, maybe not to see it in all its glory. But you know, it's finding that balance between, you know, wanting to show, okay, this is, this is what it is, this is the reality versus making it their problem to solve, you know, we definitely don't want to do that. But we don't want to pretend that these things don't exist. But, you know, you're modeling to your son that if this does happen, you know, he knows where to turn, you are a safe place to turn to he will and He knows that you will understand. And you know, he's obviously seen you work on your mental health, so he knows, okay, I can do it too. And that, that is the best thing you can give to your kids. Honestly, it really is. And you know, it's not perfect, or it's not ideal, but you're not making it your son's problem. But you're showing him that it's okay to have mental ill health and that it's okay to talk about mental health and that we should be doing that. That's the only shot I'll ever say in my life is that we should be talking about mental health. Yes. Should be more of it. Yes. Yeah. And I think like, teenage teenage years, you know, through Tori, ously difficult to navigate regardless of any Other issues you've got. So it's like a no just talking, keeping the communication. Absolutely any kid will benefit from skills to help their emotional and mental health, even if they haven't, no mental illness, any of those skills are so valuable to any teenager because yeah, it's that hormonal thing. We want to sit there and say, Oh, it all has a reason. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just our hormones go in flux. And that's what had happened to me as a kid. I had, you know, the, the anxiety as you know, as a child, but then when you get to your teenage years, hormones really kick in. And if he takes it to another level, you know, and it's all that's when, you know, the OCD and things really set in all those intrusive thoughts. You can't really ignore them anymore. Yeah. And it can be such a scary time because you're dealing with physical changes to your body, and then, you know, emotional and then mental and it's like, what's going on? And who can you talk to? And all this sort of stuff comes up? It's just here. And then social media, I guess these days? Oh, yeah. I got out of AZ without having phones and technology back in the day. I mean, I, I don't understand. I mean, this is probably going off topic. But there is such an attitude in society that what teenagers go through isn't real, or it's not important. And but you know, you'll get over it. It's, you know, and that attitude is so damaging. Yeah, I don't get it. Like we so quick to the little kid. And yes, you know, they might have their heart broken for the first time. And it's, you know, yes, it's different to, you know, something else you might go through as an adult, but that doesn't make it any less. You know, it's important for them. And, yeah, time in their life. That is the biggest thing. That's all I can think about. To shut that down. Yeah, I really dislike that. That attitude that a lot of people have, and you see it a lot on social media that all teenage. But anyway, that's going off topic. But yeah, that's frustrating. Yeah. And that that will contribute to mental unwellness. So of course, and then you get some motherboard and you're not meant to complain, because everyone's a mother and everyone does it and blah, blah, blah, like either we if we can actually support our kids when they're going through that hard stuff as kids as teenagers. Just yeah, it might not prevent a mental health episode, but it might just make it less severe. might make it easier to get through might make it quicker for them to you know, overcome. I guess it Yeah. Anyway, I'm yeah. My first degree was actually originally in early childhood. Ah, right. Yep. So yeah, that was yeah, it's always been important to me to see kids to see teenagers as people as valid. They have emotions, and that's okay. They're not Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's, that's important. Yeah. And I'm sure there's a lot of moms listening that have, you know, children of different age. So, you know, it's good to share what you know, actually, speaking of this, I'm going off topic again. But my my, Alex, my 14 year old, the other day, I made a decision. That wasn't what we would have agreed with. And, and I said to my husband, we can't, we can't punish him too much for this because his brain physically hasn't evolved to the point where you can make decisions the same way we can. And I just thought, gee, we as a society, we've come a long way, because that's not how my parents would have traded. No, you should have known better. What were you thinking? Well, my frontal prefrontal cortex hasn't evolved yet. So. Yeah, and I mean, you know, we're trying to negotiate. I mean, our parents probably did the same. You know, it's either you, you treat us as kids all throughout, no, you're just a kid, you can't make a decision. Or, on the other extreme, you know, you want to be treated like an adult, why aren't you acting like an adult? You know, those two extremes that, you know, you're either treating them like a kid or you're expecting them to behave like an adult. We need to do better at treating them, or meeting them where they're at. Yeah, and I think we are getting better. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, there's so much science out there. Now, that tells us this stuff. Like the reason I it's in front of front of my mind. It's in your frontal lobe. Pardon. I was listening to the radio last night, and there was this, this. I don't know what they were talking about to start with. But then they got on to the brain and they said that your brain evolves or matures from the back to the front. Like it's that's what we know. And it's like, Oh, my God, no wonder I made foolish decisions as a teenager. Like it just it there. The science is there to back it, you know, and you know, it's you can't argue with that. I feel like You know, we've got all these other tools in these, this information at our disposal now to be able to treat, you know, people of different ages with appropriate, you know, responses, you know? And that's why I'm mixed. I'm excited to see the next generation grow up. Oh, yes, they'll have been parented very differently. And I'm actually looking for I'm hoping I'm hopeful for them that they don't know that things are better for them that they're easier for them. That's all you want for your kids you want. What's better for them either. Anyway? Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Can you just give me a sec? I've just heard a knock on my door. Oh, sure. Please. Come nice. Hello, Dolly. I'm going really good to come say hello. Yeah. This is Rebecca. You've said a little bit. Nice to meet you. degree. This is my little. Oh, he's a champ. He's so funny. He often does call in and say hello to people. Yes, shut the door. He's gone yeah. And thank you for this space, I think it's so important we talk about, you know, not just creativity, but as a mother, you know, being able to because that's, you know, that's the job being a mom, we're meant to do that. 100% of the time, and yet, where people? Yeah, so being able to talk about, you know, how we find that balance, or whether we can actually find that balance or how we do it, you know, being able to talk about that I think is so important, because there is still so much guilt, there is still so much shame. If you're, you know, I could be doing more, I should be doing more. But that person's doing that, why aren't I you know, and we beat ourselves up and at what cost? You know, so I got on you for doing this and encouraging all of us really to keep doing what feels right. Yeah, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or share and you did say about, you're heading back to work, but this isn't going to stop for you. This is a, this is your passion, and you're going to keep doing this, which is I want to I want to get to a point obviously, where I can phase out of, you know, the nine to five, and I can work on this, I guess full time and you know, get paid two. That would be the goal. And I mean, I've got my little it's like a mini vision board. I'd say like it's got all my plans. Like I want to write a book, you know, finally, one that's not crap. I want to Yeah, I want to keep working in this field, whatever that looks like, whether it's also pumping out workbooks, like coming from my background with journaling or storytelling and being able to you know, facilitate. Yes, it's not a cure and God I would never market it as a cure but okay, he's something that we can maybe work on that might it helped me hopefully it helps you a little bit to like that's the stuff I would love to be doing doing the podcast doing the social media stuff. Yeah, just those kind of digital work you know, he's some journaling prompts was that like something like, you know, I'd love to just phase out of the nine to five and be able to focus on this because I I love sharing these stories. You know, I I was really worried when I started podcasting and interviewing people but the more I'm doing it, the more I realize. Yeah, like as much it's it's sad and it's confronting, like just hearing those stories and knowing that someone out there is actually trusting me with their story with their vulnerable experience just means the world and I don't take that lightly. Yeah, and I want to be able to do that justice and I want to be able to help them, you know, be able to facilitate the sharing of that story because I know that's not easy. But also help out The people that they're not alone. So if I can somehow figure out a way to make this work, you know, make this an actual job, so to say, then I'll do it. And hopefully one day I'll see myself as a creative. I still see myself as that organized planner, because that's, that was so indoctrinated in me. It's what I did to function in this world, I guess up until this point. Maybe I'll just have to find a balance between the two parts of myself. But yeah, one day. I'm hoping that that'll be what I can do. I can work in order to facilitate that right. Now, good on you. I really hope you do. That would be so awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been so lovely to talk to you and to meet you. And to talk face to face. Yeah. And I mean, I saw your story submission for my podcast. I was like, When can I message her to say she can come on my plane? I feel like I have to go on yours first. Because we've been trying to organize it. Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'd love to share your story too. If you're comfortable. Absolutely. It'll be pleasure. I'd be honored to actually be Yeah, thank you. We can we can negotiate. That good audio. Thank you. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Katherine Collette Australian author + podcaster S2 Ep44 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Katherine Collette, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. Katherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry, in diaries, stories or to pen pals. Throughout high school it fell away until her 20s when she would write a little play or comics for friends, An engineer by trade, when Katherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life she would write a book, so she began. Her first book The Helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life. was published in 2019 and she followed up with The Competition in February of this year - 2022. Her style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of punch. Katherine also co hosts the First Time Podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Mildenhall . Katherine - website / The First Time Podcast / Purchase / Instagram Williamstown Literary Festival / Bendigo Wriers Festival / Queensliff Literary Festival Varuna Writers Retreat / The Divided Heart by Rachel Power / Rachel Power's podcast episode Podcast instagram / website Music used from Alemjo with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast has done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Katherine collet, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two. Catherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry in diaries, short stories, or to pen pals. Throughout high school, it fell away until the early 20s When she would write little play or comics for friends and engineer by trade. When Catherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life, she would write a book. So she began her first book the helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life was published in 2019. And she followed up with the competition in February of this year. Catherine style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of a punch. Catherine also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Miljan. Hall. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Catherine. It's a real pleasure to have you. Ah, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Yeah. Must be nice to be the subject of a podcast rather than interviewing someone. Yeah, it is the I think that events add things to, I think the harder job is being the host, rather than being the guest. You got to be a lot more agile in how you're thinking and think of the next question. But if you're the guest, you just wait for the question and answer. It's great. You can relax a bit, just switch off a bit. And yeah, hopefully not too much of like, if you if you don't. So tell us about what you do. Sure. So I am an author. I have written two books. My first book came out about four years ago. And my second book, which is called the competition came out just over a month ago now. So I do writing. I write fiction, the type of fiction that I write is humorous fiction. And I also co host a podcast called the first time, and I believe you had my co host on the show a couple of episodes ago. She'll say, we know Yeah, it was lovely to make a she's, you guys must have so much fun when you make that podcast. It's I think it's well, I mean, we've been doing it for about four years. It started out the concept of the podcast was my first book was coming out. And she was the only author that I knew. So I kept asking her all these questions about what to expect. And yeah, we ended up making a podcast about it. And the podcast has continued since. But during the last and it's always been fun. But during the past couple of years with COVID. We're both in Melbourne, we've spent long periods of time locked down, as I suspect have, you know many of your listeners. But she really was my main touch point, aside from my family, my husband, my mom, it was Kate that I spoke to every week. And a lot of those chats are recorded. And we listened back. She made a little compilation a few episodes ago. And we listened back to the conversations just snippets that we had when COVID first hear it and then over time during lockdown, it was just a it was a really fascinating thing. She definitely kept me going but you could also hear the fatigue in our voices over time. Yeah, it's interesting to have that like little time capsule almost of that, that moment in time and sort of reliving the emotions and the uncertainty and all that sort of thing as as it went through. And yeah, I think it was fascinating because I think that period particularly at the start, you know of so much uncertainty. Yeah, to reflect back and think. Wow, I'm glad you didn't know what was coming in many ways. Yeah. So strange. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just want to let you know that I messaged you and let you know. But I am reading the competition. I haven't finished it yet. I'm sorry, I didn't get to finish it. But I love it. I mentioned you and your message I love your sense of humor is so relatable to me. I just I read it. And it's like, I could have said it myself. It's just love it. So. Oh, thank you. That's so nice. Thank you. I really appreciate that All right, so let's go back to the beginning. How did you become a writer. I was a kid who always liked writing. I, I wrote, as a, you know, pretty early on, I would write in diaries, I had a lot of pen pals. Often people didn't realize they were pen pals with B. So they, you know, didn't always write back. But I wrote a lot of letters to people. And I also read a lot of poetry in those letters, terrible sort of rhyming stuff. So it was something that was really a part of my life early on. But it fell away, as I think it maybe is a fairly common experience in high school I was more interested in I played a lot of basketball. For one, I was probably also more interested in meeting boys. So I did, I did some writing, but mostly it was assessment based. So there was some creative stuff in there, but but not, you know, not heaps. And then in my 20s, I would do little bits and pieces, sometimes for gifts for people, like I might write a little play if they were going away, or I might write comics for them. So I had this creative element. But I mean, I'm, I'm 41 Now, when I turned 30, it just not I had a crisis, but I had this moment of thinking, my whole life, I thought I would write a book. And I realized that no one's ever just gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, you'd be amazing at writing a book. If you if you buy a if you write a book, we'll publish it, you have to just start writing the book. And so I did, and I didn't shut start with short stories. I just plunged straight in. I had met. I'm an engineer, but I was working for a brief period of time at a council doing community development sort of stuff, which I was really very good at. But there I met this president of this local senior citizens club. And she was a really intense woman a little bit problematic. I remember that she I think the first time I met her she was furious because the Chinese subgroup of senior citizens had been playing mahjong in the bingo room. And she had gotten so angry with them for doing this that she had, they had sandwiches in the communal fridge. So she threw out all their sandwiches. And, and told them that it was her fridge and they weren't allowed to keep food in it. So I met this woman, I had this desire to write. And so I wrote a story that was set around a council worker who encountered this senior citizens club. And I was obsessed. I wrote, I didn't have I, this was pre kids. But I got up every morning, I'd get up at five, I'd write for an hour, then I'd go to the gym, and then I'd go to work. And slowly that would encroach into weekends. Like I do writing on weekends. I wrote a bit on the holidays. My husband was like, it's kind of annoying. She would not do this. But yeah, so that was how I got the first draft of my novel down. And I was madly redrafting, wanting to start to send it out. When my daughter was born, that felt like a really big hurdle. But basically, I sent it out. You know, I had a few hurdles and hits and misses along the way. But that novel ended up getting published. And when it was purchased by the publisher they purchased it was a two book deal. So I I was in at that point. Yeah. Is that scary though? Knowing that you've got to then turn around and do In other words, well, I had a draft of the other one. So that certainly helped. Yeah, but it is it is daunting. Yeah, I've heard people say that it, it probably is a better example of it, that do weekly columns. And so that feeling of like, you just sent one in. And then the next day, it's like, oh, I have to do another one. Like I just finished the first one. So did definitely have that. Yeah, right. So not wanting to spoil the competition for people who haven't read it yet. Was that inspired by real life people as well, as they helped me it was, it was so the competition is set around. Public speaking club, people might have heard of Toastmasters. It's a very similar environment. But basically, I had swapped jobs, essentially, from going from engineering to working at the council. And suddenly, I had to do a lot of public speaking. So I joined the local Toastmasters Club. And I don't know if you've been to Toastmasters. I know people I know people who have. Yeah, so I so it's, it's a funny little world. I think that a public speaking clubs probably always going to be pretty awkward. And you would want a public speaking club to be awkward. Both because people are trying something that is inherently awkward. But also, if it was to cooler space, you wouldn't feel comfortable to get up like it has to be this really accepting friendly, kind of gentle place. But that also adds a layer of unusual newness I suppose like if I guess my first impression of Toastmasters was like, Oh, this would be easy to satirize. Because, well, it's awkward, it's enthusiastic, it's really positive, it sort of came out of a probably predates the self help movement on us, but it's definitely a part of it. But at the first meeting that I went to, there was another woman who had just joined and she was a, she's a transgender woman. And she was in the process of transitioning. And she talked about why got to know her over time. But basically, in that process of transitioning, she picked Toastmasters as the place that she would start that so she sort of said to the group, listen, my name is this here. But outside of this, I've called David. And if you see me in the street, don't mention, you know, my name is Greer here, don't don't mention the two things. And that always struck me that Alongside this, this place, that could feel a little bit ridiculous at times, there was something about it, that was really beautiful. If someone who is doing something that's really brave, and I imagine it's really difficult, but they feel that this is the best place to start that journey. And so I always had this view of Toastmasters. And it was a view that I maintained over time, that it was a place where people found their voice, and that there could be elements of that, that were really funny. But there were elements of that, that were really sweet and positive and important. And, and so I started writing a book about it. And the book, the competition is set around a public speaking competition in a Toastmasters like environment. And there is a character in it. It's a really minor character that is based on that original woman that I met. But that's not the focus of the story. Yeah, yeah. Do the people know that they're in your books? Like, are they aware that they've had them? She's the only one that is based on Well, I did have a senior citizens club president in the previous one but I suspect she's is dead and and she was heavily fictionalized. The this is really the only character that is more closely based on a person but she's a really small character before it before the book came out, I had because I had interviewed Gregor is the woman same before writing the book. And I said to her, Oh, would you like to read the bits that I've put this character in? And I've set up copies of the book in my she said, No, she wasn't fast. But she my launch comes up in a week's time and she's going to come to the launch, which was nice. That's but it wouldn't be. It is lovely. It would be very daunting though. If I hadn't done those things, the idea of writing about something and not being I open about that. And I can see why people, you know, could make that choice just because it feels harder. But I'm glad I did. And I mean, it was a positive portrayal. Yeah, that's the thing. You're not You're not hiding it because it was, you know, you turned it into a negative or anything. It's like, it's quite positive. And you don't mind if that person is very aware that that is them? Or based on Yeah, that's right. That's right. I guess the challenge with that, though, in that kind of example, is that it could feel very random to have a book that is set in a public speaking club. And there is just a transgender character walking around, like, it could feel like a really labored form of diversity or something like that. So I just was a bit conscious of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So, share a little bit about a bit more about your first time podcast with I mean, I don't want to give away your secrets, because I want people to listen to it. But tell us the sort of the gist of it, I suppose. So as I said, when my first book was coming out, I had all these questions. And so I would routinely be like, okay, you know, like, my launch is coming up. What am I meant to do at the launch? Or they want me to give a speech at the booksellers conference, what should this speech be about? Or, you know, just all of these different things that I wanted her view on, I wanted to know the answers to because I think it's, I think it's a vulnerable thing for anyone releasing any type of art into the world via books, or music, or sort of visual art, those kinds of things. And so you, you sort of, I really wanted that from her. But I also was very much in this space of being a writer in a community of writers, and a lot of them were emerging writers, that would be going through the same things because, you know, they would have books published, if not now, but they just had books published. So both of us were like, Well, we think there's kind of a bit of space in this. And I think authors, particularly emerging writers also like hearing those stories of how people's books came to be sitting on the shelf. And did you get an agent? Did you enter a competition? Like, you know, was it on the slush pile, all this sort of stuff? So we started the podcast, and it always had these two parts. One part was our experiences. So me saying it was, I think, particularly in those early days, because we recorded a lot, before we had an audience, and we're releasing episodes as their audience was growing. We were both very vulnerable and saying, I feel really daunted. Yeah, so we had this one part, which was about us discussing me asking questions, the two of us discussing pretty candidly the experience of being published. And then the other part was interviewing authors, other authors about what it was like their first time. And so that was the initial starting premise. Initially, we had to not beg people to go on the show. But we certainly had to question please come on, you know, podcasts people can be a bit dismissive of, but we were like, ah, Could you could you come on our podcast and in people very kindly said, Yes. And so now I think we're into our fifth season, we are overwhelmed with people pitching like it, that part has really evolved, evolved. And you don't have to ask anymore, you've got people knocking down the doors to you to be a part of it. RedBubble. And the best part of that is, is that you get st people's books. So you just have we get lots and lots of books. So as someone who loves reading, as well as writing that, I just I constantly pinch myself and going to the mailbox and having all these books there. It's great. So that was where we began. We are now five seasons in we still interested in people's first time, and that's sort of what we're known for with our guests. We always ask them about that first time. But I guess as we've evolved as writers, we ask also about the craft of writing, as well as the publication experience. Yeah, it's been really nice. And I think what's nice about it is that you start to build a community around it, so it's got a really beautiful community and it's been such a nice thing to do. Writing can be really solitary, but this feels a bit more like a team sport. Yeah, absolutely. And it would be so rewarding to like knowing from your own point of view, what it's like, for your first time and how daunted you are, you're actually helping other people as well. I think that would be amazing feeling. It is, it's lovely. And some of the letters that we get, and emails are so touching. I keep mentioning COVID. But I think COVID is really dominated life. And we've had so many people that have messaged and said, You really got me through COVID I couldn't write I didn't feel creative. I was I couldn't meet with my writers group. But having you and Kate talking and being able to listen to you guys and hear the same struggles. And here also the your defeat your challenges in being creative at such a strange time. Yeah, so it's like they were they were, they were hearing from familiar figures in their lives. You know, it was they felt reassured, and yeah, it's like you. Even though you weren't there, you were there for people, you know. It's true. And I feel that myself with a podcast that I listened to podcasting in audio is such an intimate medium, because it's intimate. When you create it, it's just you and I sitting here, it's intimate when you listen to it, because it's generally most people listen on headphones, or, you know, maybe in the house, but they're generally listening on their own. It's only when you then realize that, you know, it's 1000 people listening on their own, that you realize what's not, you know, probably only to say everything. Not good on you that that's really awesome. I think yeah. COVID was, and it still is, you know, it's it's a time that's divided people like physically. And so having those, those connections that people can tap into, it's just been everything, it's been so important for people and yeah, good on you. And I think that community has helped us too. I remember early on in COVID, we had a listener that wrote a letter in and was saying they had just been at for Runa, which is a very well known writing retreat in the Blue Mountains. And it was in a house that was formally owned by Eleanor dark, who was a writer. And this listener that wrote in was saying that she had read Eleanor darks, diaries or something from the Second World War. And in them, Eleanor was saying that for the duration of the war, she couldn't write because she felt this creative malaise. Survival was sort of front of mind. And it just sort of felt frilly to be writing amidst all that, and something that really helped me when I was struggling to hear someone say, yeah, that is really difficult in times of hardship to want to write, but also that that malaise goes away, and that as as things in life get better. It comes back. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's, it's like a, it's not a thing that's sort of reserved for this era of COVID. Like, this is an experience that people have had for many, many generations. So it's sort of reassuring in that way, you know, that you're not alone. And what you're feeling is normal. And you can feel exactly, yeah, exactly. No, that's, it's interesting. Because I found in people that I've spoken to, through this podcast, it can go either way. It's like, some musicians go bonkers. And just they've got to express how they're feeling through their art, or painters, and, and such, and others that just go nuts. Like survival mode, like you said. It's like daddies that it's like almost the primal brain kicks in. And it's just day to day looking after yourself. Looking after your family. Yeah. And everything. That's really true. Yeah. And I guess, to everyone's experience with the COVID, throughout Australia and around the world as being different to like, even you guys compared to me here in South Australia, I've had nothing compared to what you guys have gone through. So I sort of touched with that. You know, we've been really fortunate here and yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting. I think that's really true. I think it's also if you err on that side of that, I can't write I can't do anything. I've got nothing. It's really hard seeing people that Oh, my God novel fell out of my head overnight. And I've you know, written it in three days. I think we often feel that since well, I think jealousy is always a part of creative life, how much you try and engage with that and be calm. Just not to let it in, but you can feel like you're falling behind Yeah. All right, so let's talk about your family and your children. You mentioned briefly that you had your first child when you were sort of the helpline was getting going places and happening and things. And yeah, tell us a little bit more about your children. Yeah, so I've got two children, the eldest, Matilda is eight now and Oscars, six. So they're both at school. This is Oscar's second year at school. So he's in grade one. So I feel like now is a really exciting time creatively, because I get two days a week that they're both at school, and I'm not doing other types of work. So that's really exciting. But yeah, so when Tilly was born, I took a year off work, you know, stayed at home, I wrote a lot in that time, she was a good sleeper. So I was really lucky in that respect. I feel like I've been able to maintain my creative practice through motherhood, probably the bigger blip in that was having two kids, because most people with multiple kids will know, you have this idea that maybe they'll have a nap at the same time, but think that ever really happened. So I think that felt that sort of first year of Oscars, life felt like far more of a hit in that respect. But I wouldn't change it for the world. I feel lucky, like those. I feel lucky to have both to both be able to maintain a creative space and energy and be able to do that. But also to complement that with family life. I feel that one enhances the other. It can you elaborate on that a bit more? Well, I think that pre kids, that was a fear for me, like I had this sense of urgency when Tilly was going to be born, that life would change. And I had a sense that what if I can't write anymore? What if? Or what if I can't write for a long time, what if it's not until they're both at school that I can sort of pick up a PIN, I really didn't know how that would work. And I think those early days of motherhood are so hands on, there's so much sleep deprivation and all those kinds of things that whilst I enjoyed all that I I had framed it around loss, in some ways that I would lose this ability to be creative. And, and a lot of that was related to time. But increasingly, I think having kids is enhanced my creativity, both from the point of view of productivity and the lesser time that I have. But kids also awaken a different sense of curiosity in you and a sense of play, which I mean, you reading different books and seeing different words in that way. But I don't know, like, just how a child will spend an hour balancing a beanbag on one foot, or you know, those sorts of the game of life, you know, games in nothing. And there's something that's I remember being a kid and thinking, encountering adults that I knew had forgotten what it was like to be a kid and thinking, I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. But I think for me, it wasn't until I had kids that I remembered what it was like to be a kid like I had forgotten. Yeah, because life takes you in that direction, doesn't it? Like life expects you to be a certain way and behave, you know, this level? And it doesn't encourage times of play and and it doesn't. You wouldn't the things that you do with kids. Like I don't know, it's sometimes it's boring, like you're playing in a sandpit and that repetition of activities that really little kids like But the delight they will take in playing with an adult is really a joyful you're listening to the art of being a mom. I started doing improv comedy last year, just they do a series of like terms, basically. Yeah. And improv, particularly in the early stages has lots of games that you'll play it. And they're really fun. So something very small might be one person you're in, say, pairs. One person says, well, well, if it isn't there, and then you have to think of like an adjective, and then an occupation or a type of thing. So well, well, well, if it isn't that angry bus driver. And then the other person has to say something that an angry bus driver will say, like, oh, you know, I haven't got a good ticket to get off the bus, something, something small. But I do that. And I take a lot of those games, but that sort of thing with my kids, where you'll say, well, well, well, if it isn't there, something something. And it's just really fun seeing what they come back with and what. Yeah, I would feel silly, potentially doing that with adults, but kids are always up to that stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love it. I work in childcare. And I, it's the perfect environment for just being yourself, like truly being yourself. Because you can be as silly as you want. You can have in the staff it everyone's the same. So there's all these banter and silliness. Like I could imagine going into my work and doing something like that, because people are just in that headspace that, you know, your inhibitions are gone. No one's judging you like, a kid's not gonna look at you and go, Oh, that's not very funny. Like, you know, it's so good. I do. Like there are certain friends I have that, that you can do that sort of stuff with my publicist for the book, the competition, we've traveled around a bit since the books come out. And she was saying when she was a kid on long car trips, obviously, you had the radio, but the radio would go out. So her family used to play this game where one of them would pretend to be a talkback radio host and the others would call in. And she said, the great joy of it was just in the name this so you sort of drive past a church and say, Oh, we're looking at churches today. Have you ever been in a church? What's the funny thing that's happened in a church? Do you like churches, you know, this sort of thing? And just the ridiculousness? We did it for hours. Like, just as we were sort of being driven from place to Oh, suitcases. Do you have a hard suitcase? You have a lost a suitcase? You know, just Yeah. So I tried doing that with my, my kids, and they have never heard talkback radio. We listen to podcasts and things. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? You sort of that's that generation. Yeah. Oh, I should try that with my kids. They would love that actually. So much fun. Yeah. Like, the more inane that it gets is just and because talkback people are so like, have such an opinion, such a singular point of view. Yeah. I can imagine your lady you said about before that it's like, yes, she'd be on Mars young into being gay. Right? Exactly. Oh, my goodness. One of the things I like to ask my guests is about how having children or being a mother sort of might have changed the way they create. And that's how it sort of has influenced you, I guess is that it brought back that ability to play and look at things differently. Maybe look at things through the eyes of a child and yeah, I think that's the real. Yeah, that's, that for me, that's what kids have brought. I think also that I've had much greater exposure to kids books. Kids books have changed a lot since I was a kid. You still have I mean, I love Roald Dahl. And I still love Roald Dahl. But even when I pick him up, I'm like all It's pretty harsh at times. You know, a lot of it is sort of carried through. But other things like I don't know if we'd get away with that now. Yeah, that's actually that's a really good point. You see some of the stuff. Yeah, I've noticed the same thing and like reading to kids at work over the years. It's like it's gone from like, almost like an adult way of writing to this completely the other way that you think you'd hear that in? Like, you know, the schoolyard like, it's not even formal enough for a book, you know what I mean? Yeah. This Yeah, the, my kids read a lot of Ra sprat, who does nanny Pickens. And anyway, she is very funny. Just listening to kids books is really fun. We listen to a lot of them on audio, on podcasts or on borrowbox, like library apps. tightenings. So I think, not only that sense of play with my own kids, but being exposed to authors who play a lot in their writing. I think there's so much more of that than there ever was, before you look at the tree house books or books that are just a bit absurd or, Yeah, funny books. Yeah. You talked before about not really knowing what to expect, like, you're thinking of things in a point of view of loss, like, will I get this back? You know, maybe how it's going to fit into my life? Did you have other members around you at the time, who were writers that you could sort of glean information from? Or are you just basically making it up as you went, I suppose I had, I had just started a writers group, there were four of us in the writers group. And I know I didn't have that, then that's a lie. So I had gone to RMIT. And I was doing some creative writing courses there. But I didn't have a group at that point. But it must have been fairly early on. When I went back, so Tilly must have been about 12 months old, and then met a couple of people. And we set up a writers group that was separate. So that was a really pivotal moment for me, in having other people around me who were writers that I could talk to, they were obviously less established writers. So they were also had pretty young kids. And we're figuring those things out. So I think it was a more lonely endeavor. By the time we're not a lonely endeavor, but probably everyone has to figure that balance of stuff out for themselves. But when my son was born, one of the girls in the writers group was Kate actually gave me a book by Rachel power coat, ah, what's the name of the divided heart. I remember breastfeeding at night, and just devouring this book, which is a book, it's a collection of interviews with creatives, writers, musicians, all different sorts that talk about particularly those early stages of motherhood and motherhood and how they fit it in. And so you would have people who were sort of literally breastfeeding to the side of the stage before going out and playing a set, and others who really had struggled to be able to do everything to be able to do anything. And, for me, that was the greatest education because it was this breadth of experience of how people had made it work. And so it sort of did reinforce that idea of you just have to figure it out. But it presented a vision of it can coexist. You don't have to give one up. You can have both, and it will be a juggler. And here are examples of what the juggler looks like. But yeah, yeah, that was huge for me. Yeah. And in fact, I've tried to give it to people who've just had babies and who are creative, and it's very hard to get. Yeah. I had Rachel on the, on the show on the podcast in season one. And gosh, she's an amazing woman to speak to. She's just, I don't even know how to describe her. She's just incredible. And the gift that that book keeps giving to people. It just it's endless, like so many people had had mentioned this book. And I actually had it I hadn't read it. I'd heard of it, but I hadn't read it. And I reckon the first three people I've spoken to had mentioned this book, I'm like, I need to read this book, and then I read it and like I need to talk to this lady that wrote it. I need to get inside her head more. And yeah, she was so generous with their time Um, it was wonderful to speak to it. It's such a known book among, like, I want to say it's niche, but it's kind of not niche because it really applies to so many women. It's just that it applies at this particular gets you at this particular stage of life. That's it isn't. It's yeah, it's an incredible book. Yeah. I approached my interview with with Rachel, like, I didn't want to be complete fangirl. You know, you might be like, actually, when you speak to authors, it's like, I need to contain myself. But I'm so excited to speak to it. And I just wanted to to really understand from a layperson, that what she's done is just been incredible. And the gift that she's given to so many people, and yeah, just how grateful we all are, you know, for does she know that I imagined check and save a lot. Does she think? Yes, I hope she does. If you're listening, I hope you get it. Push it really to me. What in, in what I have seen, it is the only book of that kind of milk that I have discovered. And it is a very beloved book. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. So yeah, like, I think what, what I've sort of taken from that, what you're just saying is like, you can see what other people do, you can't exactly copy what they're doing. Because everyone's life is different. But it's reassuring to hear everyone's going through it. And we can make it work. And like you said, these are some ways that you can sort of manage that, that juggle. And I think it helps with that. You can feel very judged in that juggle at times, particularly in a creative juggle is very distinct from a work juggle, because at least a work juggle is bringing money in. Whereas the creative juggle, might not bring money in at all, or a very small amount of money relative to return. So that tension, I think, is what profound in that space. It's a whole, like, I can never say it right? It's not a kettle of worms. It's a can of worms, can I get my kettle of fish in my cameras? But that is it like the value that artists have been honest, a forced in inverted commas, because I don't really believe we bring it on ourselves. It's something that society and external judgment has brought upon us that we, if things are only a value, if that's a monetary value, and that's a horrible thing to say, unless you can commercialize it, unless it's part of capitalism, society, it's what is it worth, you know, and that's a really, really sad thing with so I think it's so deeply ingrained that in many people that many people don't even realize like one of the things people always ask you, when your book comes out, or when it's been out for a little while, it's generally not other writers or other authors that would ever ask this, but just kind of people that are outside of that world is Oh, what a sales like, Did you which, and I can understand that compulsion to ask that. But it's, it's such a fraught question for someone producing creative because it's so diminishes the worth of something to this volumetric measure, when equally, they could say, you know, what's been the response? or what have you, you know, like, there's so many other ways that you could measure the success of a thing to talk to sales is, is Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Some of the moms I've had on this show, have felt the judgment from not their own parents, but like parents in law, about there's one example of a lady that the mother in law would look after the brother's children because the mum was going to work like an actual job, but she wouldn't look after her children because what she was doing wasn't deemed as being worthy enough to have childcare. You know, it's like this, this massive judgment that comes at you from all angles. That kind of ties into one of the things I love to talk to moms about is this whole concept of mum guilt. What's your sort of take on that in relation to, to creativity? I think, I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that stuff is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship. And, like a real life relationship between perception and and that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Yeah, I don't suffer majorly from guilt. Because I guess for a lot of years, I tried to make my writing as invisible as possible. So I would get up at five o'clock or 430. Before kids, pre COVID, I would leave the house, we have a 24 hour McDonald's nearby, I would spend that, you know, be back by 7am, which, you know, I'm in a privileged position to be able to do because I have a partner who was in bed at that time. So I did work really hard to kind of make that as invisible as possible. Because I have now got two books out, I've been able to carve out more time. But I remember when Tilly was I think she was about nine months old. And she might have been 10 months. And I got my very first fellowship to go to a writing retreat at Bruna at this retreat that I've mentioned before, and it was a full week all on my own. And I was so unbelievably excited, because it was a really validating thing to have one in the first place, but also because I had a 10 month old baby like to be away from that child was like hard, but I was gonna love every minute of it as well. Yeah. And I think I even weaned Tilly in order to go, which I would not have told people at the time, but I didn't want to be pumping milk and being at this retreat the whole time. Yeah, a week. Oh, my God, having is the worst. Anyway, so my husband and I were in Sydney and I was going to catch a train to Verona. And so I was in this like, great, joyous mix of excitement and all the rest. And he got up at sort of 5am put to leave the car and they drove off. And so I lay luxuriating in bed and was just about to get onto the train, and was just pure, pure excitement. And you know, like, I'll miss you, but I'm so happy. Anyway, he called me at like 730. And something had happened with the car. And they've been driving. And he what had happened, the brakes had failed. So he was trying to slow the car down and pushing on the brake and nothing was happening. So he was stuck on the freeway with no way of like slowing down. And so he managed somehow to get the handbrake to go on. We just got to get like 100 kilometers now. So it's like this real near death experience. And it was so like, it was awful and crashing on multiple levels. But I remember feeling really worried but also, if I hadn't have been if I hadn't have been going off to do my writer's retreat or why myself that would like it was such a guilt laden moment, even though it was complete chance. And me having been there or not, wouldn't have made a difference. Yeah, there's just yeah, like, did you get to go on your retreat still? Or did they did and I still had a great time. But I always whenever I think of that retreat, I think of this need if that was it, the cruise control got stuck on and he couldn't turn the cruise control off my God. So it just kept the car kept barreling along so it's it's really frightening thing. But whenever I think of that retreat, I also think of the two of them having this near death experience. And it is overlaid with joy and guilt. So as much as I sort of am conscious of it and try not to feel it. It's it's yeah, it rears its little head. I love that. And I love that you didn't go back and save them in the lucky which rich rage because like, like you said, like what would have been nothing would have changed. If you were in that car, the same thing would have happened. It's like I would have made it worse because I would have been like ah like I didn't die. So it's probably better for everyone that I was I had topic that I like to raise with my guests is about identity about how the concept of how you saw yourself changed when you became a mum. Did you sort of have any To sort of experience where you went, I mean, you did talk about before, how you were concerned that you may not be able to write again. Yeah, identity is an interesting one. I think that I have never been a person that has, when I became a mother that that became my single identity. And I'd probably say that from even when I worked, I worked as an engineer, I really struggled to say I'm an engineer, were to take that honest identity, like some people do really take their job on as an identity I never really did that. I struggled to take on I'm a writer as an identity, which probably is more impostor syndrome, you know, is, is probably the source of that more than anything. So with motherhood, I was obviously a mother, but I never saw that as a singular entity to how I was. And I think part of that was, I was able to write in those early days of motherhood, you know, a couple of months in that sort of stuff, I did go back to work. So I didn't spend, I spent a year off, but I didn't spend a prolonged period of time. So I think that really helped. I have a tendency to obsession, like I could very easily focus singularly on art, like I have to be very conscious of what is important to me in life. And I want to have strong relationships with my kids and my partner and be in the world. But I have to really be conscious to balance that and to not let obsession with writing and those kinds of things overtake it's a really conscious effort for me. Yeah, yeah. It's you find that but like, how do you I'm an all or nothing person that my psychologist has told me that many times, I, I get fixated on things, and I have to do them. Or conversely, I just couldn't do it about anything. Like it's really odd. Yeah. Like, if I've got something in my head that I want to achieve, I'll do it. But that's very rare. I'm a very unmotivated person generally. That's like, when I watched the Olympics, and you hear people their story, like, they broke their leg, but they came back, and then something else happened. And they came back, I just think, God, I would have just given up after the first thing, you know, I'm not that person at all. So I have so much admiration from people that do that. But yeah, I I'm a bit I'm a bit the same sometimes. And then I sort of think, ah, who's cooking tea tonight, you know, like, just getting this. I'm just doing doing doing and I'm like, Oh, I lift my head up and go, Oh, what's happening in the world? You know, I think it's as well like, the tension we often have in my house is my husband is a much neater person than I am. So, yeah, I can really, I can live in fields, but like, as long as there's no like dirty food and dishes and that sort of stuff. Like I can absolutely, I can tune it out. It doesn't bother me and I sometimes think, like not to overstate it. That's a gift in life, too. Because I was not someone who when the child was napping, I wasn't like, I'll quickly tidy that never occurred to me. I was there was not going to happen. I can completely relate to that. Like right, what can I do now in 45 minutes? Jumping this just exactly which I think is what you have to do, like, in those early stages in those early days of motherhood. If you are the stay at home and the babies you're doing 90% of the caregiving oh my god you can't be cleaning your house in the 45 minute nap that that child has. No, absolutely. Just makes me weary thinking about it actually. I know. But you also have to be tolerant like you have to be able to stand the mess Oh, that's the thing, isn't it? You do but you do you get you get used to a level of discomfort that then sort of disappears it's like I can handle that being there can i Yes, I can but I don't even say anymore it's absolutely spotless. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. So do you feel I know your children are six and eight, they're very capable of seeing what's happening around them. Is it important to you that they see what you're doing and what you're contributing to the world? Yeah, I think I think it's really important. And they are really proud of that to my son in particular, is, I think, my best PR agent in the world, he will always tell when he talks to his teachers and says all mums, you know, last year, he was saying all mums written a book. And this year, he was like, Can I take the book in for my teacher and to this fit, like, he tells everyone, we went into a bookshop recently, and my book was on the shelf. And he was quite a small shop. And he was very loudly, ma'am, there's your book, and I was sort of, like, cost cash Don't, don't don't. And then when we came out, and he's like, You should be so proud. Why why, you know, like, really, really sweet. So I think it's really positive for them. I think I didn't grow up in a household that, you know, when people talked about where they were artistic people in it, people read a lot and, you know, went to theater and shows and likes things, but the idea of doing it yourself was pretty foreign. So I really liked that that's a possibility for them. But they also, and I think this is good to see that you're generally not going to make a living from it, it will bring you great joy, you can have a lot of success with it. But from a fiction writing perspective, it would be 20 authors in Australia, you know, a pretty small number that get to write full time. Yeah. Yeah. So they're learning early on the realities of hanging out? Well, that it's it coexists. And it's an important part of life. But it's you might not want to put all your eggs in that basket, but also, equally, you might want to retreat, arrange your life, so that there's space for that. So you know, you can, you don't have to work full time, you don't have to, you know, be ambitious, I think we look so much to work as to give people fulfilment. And I think that's not a message that my kids get, not to say that you can't enjoy work. And that work, you know, I work in the environmental space and sustainability stuff, I think is, is really important. And so I want them to understand that responsibility. But also that, that creativity is an important thing, too, because we look so much to sport in Australia. And, and, and I know sport has a health dimension, but so did the arts. And you can pick up all those skills around teamwork by being in the theater or dancing or, you know, it's doesn't need to be so singular. Yeah, I had a conversation with the, for the podcast with a lady who is overseas, and we were talking about what happened during COVID. What stopped and what didn't stop. And I was just like, reflecting on the fact that even though they were locked down to the restrictions, hundreds of male footballers were allowed to move around this country like COVID didn't exist. But then on the other hand, every performer, you know, anyone who was doing something in the public eye that wasn't bored, just had the rug pulled out front of them, it was just really, really showing what caught our culture in Australia values. And it was really sad. Absolutely. And meanwhile, you know, 99% of the population are watching Netflix and consuming the culture that that artists produce is when I said to someone, like, everything that we touch, everything that we listen to, and we consume has been made by someone, a creative person has made that and I think we forget that, that. It's like, if we cut the arts off, you wouldn't have the radio, you wouldn't have the TV, you wouldn't have your Netflix, you wouldn't have music, you wouldn't have, you know, houses, you know, everything would start you wouldn't be driving a car because now we'll be creating, you know, beautiful cars, it would just everything would stop. And no one thinks about it in that way, like the government said. It's yeah, it's hugely disappointing. And I think that valuing of not only sport, but male sport, yes. Is just makes it particularly disappointing particularly, you know, given the role models that sports men often playing, there are a lot of issues that I think the creative types are Uh, you know, more across. You don't see them in the paper, you know, upon sort of sexual assault or harassment charges and those sorts of things, or sitting sitting in hotel rooms, snorting cocaine or something. I don't know. Sorry, maybe maybe they're doing it, but we just don't know. better at not getting caught. That's right. No, honestly, it really has been a massive eye opener, and not in a very nice way. Would you do you have anything else that you wanted to share? Like what you've got coming up? I mean, you mentioned that you've got like your official launch? Do you want to share? Sort of? I think I've got a few festivals there'll be at I could share about Yeah, so I will be at Queenscliff and Williamstown writers festivals at those. I'm talking with Tony Jordan, who is an author that I'm a huge fan of. So that feels like a very special moment. And I'm also going to Bendigo, where I will be thinking a session with Kate talking about the first time podcast, I think we're doing a live recording. Oh, cool, beat a lot of fun. And so those are coming up in May and June and the details will be on my website. Awesome. That is so cool. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just been so nice. So nice. So nice to think about creativity and kids. Like this feels like the podcast version of Rachel's book. That's incredibly flattering. Thank you. I think that's what we need. Like it has a bigger impact on women than it does on men to adventive children. Absolutely. Yeah. He's good. Keep up the good work. Likewise, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Hannah Olson US artist S3 Ep90 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Hannah Olson is an artist and mother of 3 girls, living in Utah, USA. Originally from Luton England, she has enjoyed being creative from a very young age. In High School she had 2 really wonderful art teachers that pushed her and introduced her to many mediums like watercolour, charcoal and pencils, and encouraged her to pursue it. A high school teacher's words have remained with her "It doesn't matter what you do, but always stay creative." In College she decided to take all of the art classes she possibly could and discovered oil painting and fell in love with it. She tends not to stick to the same mediums, or subject matters, mixing it up between charcoal and watercolours, painting portraits, landscapes and still life's. Hannah really enjoys the challenge of working with new materials and subjects. She is inspired by many artists like William Bouguereau, Sargent, Van Gogh, Carl Rungius and more recent artists such as Jenedy Paige, Cesar Santos, and Andrew Tischler. While being a mum to three little ones is not easy, she finds time to paint and draw in between nappy changes, piles of wash, and endless messes. Although her children are her main focus right now she can't wait for the chance to create more and inspire others through her work. Today we are joined by Hannah's 5 month old daughter Millie today in the podcast. Hannah - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,800 Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,800 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,560 issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,280 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,080 influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms and we also stray into territory such 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,480 as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 7 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:37,920 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,200 link to the music played, how to get in touch and a link to join our supportive and lively 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 community on Instagram. 10 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,960 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,840 any time you're concerned about your mental health I urge you to talk to those around 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,640 you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,160 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,800 page alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 15 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,160 The art of being a mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water 16 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,320 which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bowendig people in the Beren region. 17 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:23,840 I'm working on land that was never ceded. 18 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,640 Thank you so much for tuning in today, welcome to the podcast. 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,520 My guest this week is Hannah Olson, she's an artist and a mother of three girls living 20 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,680 in Utah in the United States. 21 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,000 Originally from Luton in England, Hannah has enjoyed being creative from a very young age. 22 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,720 In high school she had two really wonderful art teachers that pushed her and introduced 23 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,880 her to many mediums like watercolour, charcoal and coloured pencils and encouraged her to 24 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,340 pursue art. 25 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:56,640 A high school teachers words have stayed with her ever since, it doesn't matter what you 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,720 do but always stay creative. 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,680 In college Hannah decided to take all of the art classes she possibly could and discovered 28 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,640 oil painting and fell in love with it. 29 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,840 Nowadays she tends not to stick to the same mediums or subject matters, mixing it up between 30 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,720 charcoal and watercolours, painting portraits, landscapes and still lifes. 31 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:24,080 Hannah really enjoys the challenge of working with new materials and subjects. 32 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:29,840 She's inspired by many artists like Van Gogh and more recent artists such as Genity Page 33 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,920 and Cesar Santos. 34 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:36,320 And while being a mum to three little girls is not easy, Hannah finds the time to paint 35 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,480 and draw in between nappy changes, piles of washing and endless messes. 36 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,880 Although her children are her main focus right now, she can't wait for the chance to create 37 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,240 more and inspire others through her work. 38 00:02:50,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Today on Hannah's chat you'll hear from her five month old daughter Millie who joins us. 39 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,280 Thank you Hannah for coming on, it's such a pleasure to meet you today. 40 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,120 It's a pleasure to meet you too, I'm excited to be here. 41 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,640 Oh that's awesome. 42 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:13,240 So where abouts are you at the moment and what time is it? 43 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:20,440 So I currently live in Utah in the United States and it is 5.30 at night. 44 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,240 So you would be in Monday still wouldn't you? 45 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,160 Yes, it is still Monday here. 46 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,680 That's the thing I find so fascinating about doing this is like the other day I was talking 47 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,320 to someone, yeah it was their night before, I don't usually get people that are ahead 48 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:42,360 of me just because where Australia is, we're sort of fairly close to the start of the day 49 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:43,360 I suppose. 50 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,440 Yeah but yeah I've had some fun ones, like yeah I don't know it's just I find it so fascinating 51 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:56,000 that we're all here but we're all existing in these different times. 52 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,000 And can we introduce your little visitor you've got sitting on your lap there if that's alright? 53 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:05,960 Yes so this is Millie my youngest and she just turned five months old and she can be 54 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,360 quite loud hopefully she'll not be too bad. 55 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,320 That's cool if she wants to get involved in the chat that's fine with me. 56 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:16,320 We love her. 57 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,320 Oh she's adorable. 58 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Oh I love that blue headband you've got on her head, it really brings out her eyes like 59 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:24,120 it's just gorgeous. 60 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,520 I know my sister-in-law gave it to me, she gave me two of them and I'm like oh I need 61 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,520 one in every colour they're so fun. 62 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:57,640 I love it. 63 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,720 Tell me how you got into your painting, is it something you've been doing for a long 64 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:03,720 time? 65 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:09,640 So yes and no I've been creative since I feel like everyone has been creative at some point 66 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,520 growing up as a kid like you have your crayons and all that so it was something I always 67 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:20,960 enjoyed and then it wasn't until I hit high school I had two really wonderful art teachers 68 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:28,480 that pushed me and also introduced me to loads of different mediums mostly wash of colour 69 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,480 and charcoal and coloured pencils were the main ones I did but I feel like in school 70 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:40,080 they kind of show you a bunch of different kinds but they were the ones who really were 71 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:45,640 like I think you have a knack for it like you could be really good if you wanted to 72 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,840 and of course I had my mom who was very like thought everything I did was amazing which 73 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:51,840 was very helpful. 74 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,320 Yeah very supportive and encouraging. 75 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,880 And so I just remember my one teacher in high school kind of pulled me aside one day and 76 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:05,840 he's like it doesn't matter what you do but always stay creative and so I thought in my 77 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:15,600 head I was like okay it's with me and I've always wanted to do it since then and then 78 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,400 in college or I guess is it university over there? 79 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,520 Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. 80 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:28,240 I decided to just take all of the art classes I possibly could so the way they have it over 81 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:34,280 here is you have for your first few years like classes that you're required to take 82 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:37,840 so you've got your maths and your english and all of that and then you get elective 83 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:42,440 classes where you get to choose what you would like to do so I just filled them up with as 84 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,720 many art classes as I possibly could because that's what I enjoyed the most and just had 85 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,080 a blast and that's where I learned how to do oil painting. 86 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:58,600 I had one oil painting class and I fell in love with it so primarily I oil paint at the 87 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:04,800 moment but I do get a little bit bored every once in a while where I can't just stick to 88 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,440 one thing so it's like I'll do a couple oil paintings and then I'm like oh I really want 89 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,240 to do a watercolor so then I'll I'll do that and then oh I really want to do a charcoal 90 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,040 so I kind of jump all over the place and I feel like that's also kind of the same with 91 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,760 my my subject matter too. 92 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:31,160 I love portraits yeah I really like like emotions and people and faces and but at the same time 93 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,560 you know there's those there's good landscapes and still lifes that I'm like oh just you 94 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,360 walk by and see things you're like oh I just I need to paint that or I need to draw that 95 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,320 and so I kind of I hop all over the place which is why if you go on my Instagram it's 96 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:51,120 very mixed there's not like one nice aesthetic it's just all over the place. 97 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,320 Yeah I always like a good challenge so yeah there'll be times I'll be like scrolling through 98 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Instagram or I'll be talking to someone and I'll see that someone do something I'm like 99 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:06,080 oh I want to try that I wonder if I can do that and so I think that's also something 100 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,000 else that just makes me not stick to one thing. 101 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah. 102 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,000 I just have to try it all. 103 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:38,680 I love that. 104 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:41,720 You sound like you've got a UK accent going on. 105 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:50,600 Yeah I'm originally from England and when I get nervous it comes out usually I've been 106 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,080 in the States for quite a long time and even my husband is like I can't hear it anymore 107 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,080 it's gone away yeah when I get nervous I guess it's still there. 108 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,680 You revert back to your day to. 109 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:07,520 So yeah when you first when you said watercolour for the first time I went hang on a second 110 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:13,160 I can hear something in there so whereabouts were you from in England? 111 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:19,640 So I was born in Luton just kind of right near London and then my mom was Irish and 112 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,120 so we also lived in I lived in Ireland for a few years as well in my younger years and 113 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,520 she was a single mom during the beginning portion of my younger years and then she got 114 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,400 remarried and so we moved to Texas because that's where her my stepdad was living at 115 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:41,040 the time and then we moved to Utah he got a job change and so that's kind of how we 116 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,560 moved around and so I've just stayed here. 117 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:48,280 So how long have you been in the US for? 118 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:56,600 Oh let's see I'll do some quick math I'm not great at math probably about I don't know 119 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:57,600 seven years maybe? 120 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:58,600 Yeah right. 121 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,600 I want to say it's been quite a while. 122 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,680 Yeah I love that you've still got your accent though I think that's pretty cool but my best 123 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:14,040 friend's Irish from Northern Ireland and she's been out here maybe 12 years 11 or 12 years 124 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,040 and she's still thick as like I still have times where I have to ask her to repeat myself 125 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,280 hello Helen if you're listening but and it sort of becomes a bit of a joke like what 126 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,280 did you say say that again? 127 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,200 That's great you know it's gonna be funny when my friends hear me over here they're 128 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,200 like what's wrong with you you sound nothing like you did before. 129 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,840 Yeah that's it isn't it it's all relative isn't it oh that's funny so um yeah back to 130 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,120 you sorry I got off track then but I do have a bit of a thing for accents so I sort of 131 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,840 that's another fun thing about chatting to people. 132 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:51,880 So um the style that you do is quite like representative of the object that you're painting 133 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,800 what do you call that style because I'm not very good at all that sort of technical form 134 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:56,800 jargon. 135 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:06,840 Honestly I don't really know I feel like slightly like it's contemporary realist thing like 136 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,960 I like I like realism but I also like to see a little bit of a painterly touch to it if 137 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:19,640 that makes sense so I don't yeah I don't I enjoy looking at other people's photo realism 138 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,600 but that's not for me I'm I don't know if I have the patience to learn all the technical 139 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:30,320 skills for that so I enjoy I don't know I think I would call it contemporary realism 140 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,560 but I don't even know if that's a thing so yeah no well that I mean that that'll give 141 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:38,200 people an idea when they're listening but it's like just having a look at the sort of 142 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,360 the different styles like different things you've the subjects I guess there's a there's 143 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:48,160 a gorgeous picture of a cow which I love that I mean I love cows yeah and this building 144 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:54,560 that you posted a lot of posts about what what building is that the building so I don't 145 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:02,520 know that is a temple for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints down here in Manzai 146 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:08,760 and so that is just part of my religion and it was actually the place that I got married 147 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:17,920 in and oh wow that's pretty spectacular yeah and my my husband's family they his I think 148 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,640 it's third great grandfather was the master mason for building the temple and so it has 149 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:52,760 a lot of family history connected to it and so yeah absolutely 150 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,080 is this your second child you've got this is my third your third oh my apologies third 151 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:08,360 I've got I've got three girls oh lovely that would keep you busy oh they do they do a whole 152 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:15,240 new world when you have little ones running around so what's the the age the ages of them 153 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:22,720 so my eldest is Shannon and she's five and then my middle is Oakley and she's three and 154 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,120 then Millie here is five months little Millie oh I love the name Oakley that's a really 155 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:36,160 that's a really cool name love that yeah we uh oh no oh bubba we uh had a funny story 156 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:41,080 with that with my husband we have a really hard time picking out names especially for 157 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:49,080 girls and of course we had all girls the one you know yeah those are the tough ones and 158 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:54,600 I I was just scrolling through I think I was on Pinterest actually just looking at different 159 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,720 names and I saw the name Oakley and I was like oh I kind of like that and I mean by 160 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,680 this point I was already like I don't know 30 some odd weeks pregnant like it's a long 161 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:10,120 time yeah it was coming close so we needed to make a decision and uh I turned to my husband 162 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,560 I was like I like this name Oakley he's like I suggested that at the beginning and oh you 163 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:20,360 like had you didn't say anything about it I'm like oh well I like it now I guess oh how 164 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:29,440 funny oh dude hello look at that gorgeous smile hey hey darling oh goodness I worked 165 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,880 in childcare for nine years and I was in the baby's room for most of that so and now I 166 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,720 work in kindergarten so I miss out on the all the baby snuggles so it's nice to see 167 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,640 the baby snuggles are the best they're my favorite 168 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,840 So throughout the time when you had have had your girls have you have you've been able 169 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,960 to maintain your art practice? 170 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:23,160 I guess I should say it was different I guess I should say that it stopped it was just different 171 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:34,080 and came in waves yeah I feel like when I had my first after you know after a month 172 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:40,840 or so we kind of got in a little bit more of a rhythm and I was able to set aside like 173 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:47,760 okay I'm gonna wake up an hour earlier and focus on myself and have an hour of painting 174 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,920 and get that done and that was really helpful for me but I discovered the more kids you 175 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:59,960 have the less you can plan it is so difficult to plan when you have three little minds completely 176 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:08,280 different to yours and I don't know I feel like but I do feel like I have learned from 177 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:15,320 having kids that not to waste time like I'm really good at not wasting my time when I 178 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,920 have like oh I've got an hour that I can spend I could tell you exactly what I was gonna 179 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,880 do with that hour right now whereas I feel like before I had kids I'd be like oh I've 180 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:34,600 got all day I don't have work today so I can just you know I'll watch a show or maybe sleep 181 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,000 in I'll do this and then by the time I got around to him like oh it's too late now like 182 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,600 I should be going to bed and so I feel like I'm a lot better now with time management 183 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:52,360 but I just have less time to work with so yeah yeah it kind of you know it just depends 184 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,640 it does help sometimes having like I'll bring the kids in with me into my my little space 185 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:03,560 and I'll set them up with their paints or their colors and that works out it works out 186 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,200 decent however you don't get to get like in the zone because I don't know if you've been 187 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:14,040 around little kids but they ask questions all day long and it's like I've answered that 188 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:19,720 question 50 times but I will answer it again for you yeah and now give me five minutes 189 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,280 so yeah that's it isn't it yeah but I feel like there's a difference between getting 190 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:30,440 just time to yourself and also spending time with your kids doing your your craft yeah it's 191 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,640 sort of like only half your your brain can work on what you want to do because they're there and 192 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,360 you're sort of conscious of what they're up to and like you said the questions and they seem to you 193 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:45,800 know their patience runs out so much quicker and you know it's like you just yeah like you said you 194 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,720 can't get in that in that flow of letting letting yourself go but but that's but that's a really 195 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,520 common thing that people say you know and I often say like when I didn't have kids I don't know what 196 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:04,440 the hell I did with my time like I must have wasted so much time seriously I know yeah I 197 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:11,640 I hear when my I have two younger sisters and I think back to when I was their age I'm like 198 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:21,560 like what did I do with myself like yeah yeah I don't know yeah yeah that's not a whole answer 199 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,360 but I I have no idea what I did because there's so many things I want to do now that I can't do and 200 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:41,720 oh yeah you know what it's worth it 201 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:06,040 So something I like to talk to my mums about is sort of the identity of you know when you're just 202 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:11,080 you just yourself or you know with your partner and then you become a mum did you have sort of 203 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:18,680 any sort of I don't know tricky emotions to work through when you changed to become a mum or were 204 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:26,360 you did you sort of flow through really you know effortlessly I guess I mean I think it depends on 205 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:35,320 the day because I feel like yes definitely there was an identity difference but I was lucky in that 206 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:41,960 growing up I always wanted to be a mum and so it was something I almost wanted to do more than my 207 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:48,920 art and I think that is helpful because I'm like I know that there's a time in a season with my 208 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,360 girls at this age and that at some point you know they're going to be in school and I'm going to 209 00:19:54,360 --> 00:20:02,360 have that time back again so I think I think in that way it wasn't too hard but I mean you do get 210 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:07,880 those days when you just don't feel like yourself and you're like I just I wish this day could just 211 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:14,600 be me creating with no one else bothering me and I mean I feel like everyone's going to have a hard 212 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:21,720 day sometime but the majority of the days I feel like no I'm doing what I want to be doing and 213 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:27,320 yeah there will be will be time so yeah that's it it's a good way of looking at it like I um 214 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,800 I was actually at a function on Saturday night and there were some people there whose daughter's just 215 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:37,480 turned 20 and got a license and now they have no children to run around or take to places and 216 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,600 they're like what do we do with ourselves now and I'm like that will come you know that's because 217 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,800 my kids are seven and 15 so at some point in my life I won't have to do that and then I'll go oh 218 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:54,360 my gosh this is my time now so yeah it's like don't don't stress too much because you know it's coming 219 00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:09,800 yeah yeah absolutely 220 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,240 um 221 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,960 with you creating and with the girls um something else I love to talk to my mums about is this 222 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:33,240 concept of mum guilt and I've sort of put that in air quotes because I don't know it's a it's a 223 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,600 made-up name I guess to that describes a lot of really deep and complex feelings it's not just 224 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:46,600 as simple as you know hashtag mum guilt um yeah what are your thoughts on that so I 100% have mum 225 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:53,960 guilt or whatever we want to call it and I think that's probably my number one struggle as a mom 226 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,640 is just dealing with the emotions of feeling like oh I should be doing other things I should be with 227 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:07,240 my children um I feel like for me it it almost clicks like as soon as I'm feeling happy about 228 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:12,600 something it's like as soon as I'm enjoying what I'm doing I'm instantly like oh should I not be 229 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,960 enjoying myself right now there's a pile of wash that needs to be done or I haven't played any 230 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:23,000 games like children today or and it kind of it's just in the back of your head and it never goes 231 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:31,160 away um and I I do have I do struggle with trying to figure out when it's okay to be like no this is 232 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:38,760 me time I can focus on myself and do my craft right now and then also yes I have two weeks of 233 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,720 wash that's in the laundry room and I've got dishes piled up and the floors are a mess and 234 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:51,640 my kids are eating snacks off the floor I should probably stop and yeah you know like yeah yeah 235 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:58,040 it's I have yet to figure out like the best oh uh is it possible I don't know 236 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,880 oh that's the thing I feel like yeah I feel like getting it right and and that's also in 237 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,640 air quotes too because I don't I don't think there is a right or wrong it's just whatever 238 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,840 suits but it's really hard to get that balance constantly like I feel like sometimes you feel 239 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,480 like it's going really good and then other times like the scales tip in this the other direction 240 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,520 you go oh hang on a sec like that's literally me right now I've got so much washing to do 241 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,760 so much tidying to do and I'm like actually I don't want to do that now I want to do this 242 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:37,960 oh it was it was like me last night I was so I was so on top of it last night because I knew 243 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,920 that I had this podcast and I was so excited about it that I was like I'm gonna clean my living room 244 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,800 my kitchen while the kids are in bed and then tomorrow I can just focus and look at my notes 245 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:53,480 and it's gonna be so smooth and so great never think you have a plan when you have kids you just 246 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,600 can't because I woke up in the morning well I woke up about eight times last night well I think it 247 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,000 was really only six but it felt like a lot because my little Millie who's usually a really good 248 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,440 sleeper and sleeps through the night decided last night was the night to wake up and then 249 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:16,840 I woke up really tired but I'm like oh you know what it's fine because I I cleaned and I was like 250 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,880 the only thing I have to do today is clean the girls playroom because let's be honest it probably 251 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,680 been about two months since I had cleaned it and it was a little bit disastrous so if I'm gonna 252 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,960 bring stuff in here to record I need to have it clean but I was like that's grand and so I 253 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:39,240 told my eldest I was like Shannon the only thing I need to do today is clean the playroom downstairs 254 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:46,520 and have you girls keep upstairs tidy as well and so she's like okay and then she ran off and I 255 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,800 started getting ready I was feeling so proud of myself for just like being on top of it and like 256 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,440 oh it was eight in the morning and I was dressed and I was getting you know like I was on top of 257 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:03,960 it today yeah and then of course she comes running in and goes mom mom I have a surprise for you 258 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:12,040 I'm thinking okay I mean usually her surprises are like oh I tidied up the toys in the living 259 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,200 room or I helped my sister put on her shoe you know they're usually good surprises 260 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,520 so I'm not you know I'm like great thank you I'm gonna finish getting ready and then I would love 261 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,520 to see your surprise yeah and then she leaves and then I keep getting ready and then she comes back 262 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:33,560 again she's like are you ready yeah I'm ready to show you my surprise and I'm like well okay um not 263 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:40,360 yet just give me one minute she's like it's either gonna be a good surprise but it could be a bad 264 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:47,080 surprise oh no I hope it's a good surprise because you I don't for the most part they're good 265 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,200 surprises she hardly ever gives me bad ones so I'm like okay just give me a minute but she was so 266 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,000 excited to tell me so I'm like for sure she's done something great because she's so excited 267 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,520 so excited finished getting ready and I call out and I'm like hey Shannon I'm ready for your surprise 268 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,880 and she's like I'm downstairs like oh did she start cleaning because I told her I really wanted 269 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,000 to clean and that would be like so sweet of her because you know she's so nice and I come down 270 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,080 the stairs and the door of the playroom is closed and I'm like let's never close wonder why she 271 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:28,280 closed it and I open the door and we have this it's like a shelving unit that's like steps that you 272 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:37,000 can store toys inside and I don't know if you've seen them yet and so as I open the door she is 273 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:44,360 standing proudly on the top part of this cabinet and all of the buckets have been taken out and 274 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:53,800 dumped all over the floor oh she just looks at me with pure joy I've destroyed the place 275 00:26:54,360 --> 00:27:04,200 just so proud of herself and I'm like Shannon oh lord I wanted to clean and she's like are you so 276 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:13,320 proud of my surprise I'm not proud of your surprise oh it's not a good surprise but you know I feel 277 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,360 like that's just what it's like having kids yes you feel like you're on top of it and then they 278 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:24,920 have to do something to show you no mom you're not on top of it I'm in charge today and let me 279 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:31,080 show you how I feel about that so I mean I love that story oh Shannon they're fabulous 280 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:40,680 but man they can be tough sometimes oh goodness oh she was helping wasn't she yeah 281 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,920 yeah and she did tell me she did tell me she's like I'll help you clean it up it's okay and then I'm 282 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,440 like okay that would be nice and as I'm cleaning she's like just in a minute and then she'd like 283 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,000 pull more stuff out as I'm cleaning and I'm like Shannon we're trying to clean up and she's like 284 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,360 yes but I'm making a soup and then she would like keep making a soup and then eventually we got the 285 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:07,880 whole room clean and she's like see didn't I do such a good job cleaning that up mom and I was 286 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:14,840 like I did a good job cleaning that up thank you you did a great job making more mess and making 287 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:22,840 so it was okay oh my gosh I love that yeah you literally you never know what you're gonna get 288 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,640 you literally you never know what you're gonna get do you like I feel like that it's sort of like 289 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,440 the story like you know when you're about to go to work and your car doesn't start like I feel like 290 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,520 that's parenting all the time but with your children like there's always something just gonna 291 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:43,240 get thrown at you yeah 100% and it's always when you least expect it when you think you've got it 292 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,120 that's when it yes yeah it's like it lulls you into this false sense of security it's like 293 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:54,440 hmm no now we're gonna wreck it yeah oh god and then they keep coming they're just more and more 294 00:28:54,440 --> 00:29:06,840 you know yeah oh man it wears you out doesn't it 295 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:14,200 so 296 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,240 you're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom I was so 297 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,560 do you have family nearby where you are like to help out with the girls 298 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,920 I do yes so um my I have my mom and my stepdad and my two younger sisters and they live 299 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:42,120 about 30 40 minute drive from our house so they're really close and then my husband all of his family 300 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:50,360 live in Utah and so most of them are about an hour away but still close when we need them so yeah 301 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:58,200 oh that's great isn't it yeah yeah we've got good support there yeah that's comes in handy my mom's 302 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:05,560 the best what does your mom think now like because you said before she really encouraged your like 303 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,320 when you made things when you were little like is she like look at what you do now and is like 304 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:15,160 super proud of that you've been able to keep doing it oh yeah I mean I think so she's all she I mean 305 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:22,840 is she allowed to say that I'm doing terrible I don't know she never does not to you she's she I 306 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:28,520 mean anything I do she's like oh I think that's amazing and of course growing up I think I don't 307 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:34,120 know if it was my last years of high school or when I was in college I painted a few paintings 308 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:39,560 for fun and she bought them she was the first person to really buy some of my paintings and 309 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,800 I'm sure it was for way more than they were actually worth but it made me feel so good inside 310 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,920 that someone wanted to purchase my art instead of just look at it and I think that really that 311 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:55,240 really helped and so lots of times when I'm feeling down on myself I can uh I'll give her a ring and 312 00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:03,160 ask for her advice or for her her love and support because she's more than happy to give it um yeah 313 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:10,040 today my Shannon again uh I decided to ask her because I was like wouldn't it be nice for the 314 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:16,920 podcast to have like this really sweet story of like asking my kids like oh like how do you feel 315 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,360 about mom and her art and what kind of moment or am I you know because yeah yeah I just thought 316 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:28,520 oh it'd be so nice and so I asked Shannon and I was like what kind of mom do you think I am like 317 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,840 do you you know I was like am I doing a good job you know kind of yeah she looks at me she goes 318 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:41,880 you're just a really frustrated mom all the time that was not what I was going for Shannon oh 319 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:50,200 my gosh maybe she didn't understand it so I'm like what about like that I do art and that I'm kind of 320 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,840 creative and I I teach you things do you like do you like doing art with me do you like my art 321 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,400 what do you think of that and she's like well to be honest the last one you did I didn't really like 322 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:07,640 and I just didn't want to tell you because you seem to really like it thank you oh my gosh 323 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:15,640 she will forever be honest she's such a character isn't she yeah she's so funny she's so funny 324 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,760 I feel like we need to have like a section of this podcast dedicated to Shannon she's like earned her place 325 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:31,000 yeah oh I love her yeah but that's the thing like I love I love this this idea that you know 326 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,600 we are as mothers we have this mothering role but we still have all these things 327 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,720 that we do apart from that and that we did do before we had kids so it doesn't just stop you 328 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,360 know all of a sudden we have a baby and this part of our lives just disappears into thin air so 329 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,880 I think it's I don't know that holding on to that part of yourself and that identity 330 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,240 I think is so important and Shannon's obviously seen it to be able to give her critique 331 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:07,400 she gave me a piece of advice as well today where she was like it would be better if I could do it 332 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,520 with you but sometimes you don't let me and I don't like that so I think she just wants to be more 333 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:21,000 involved and yeah you know which is easy to say a little bit more difficult to do with you know 334 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:28,040 yeah you're doing these um very detailed and yes yeah oh goodness 335 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:51,480 now it sounds like a lot of fun in your house it is it's a bit of a madhouse but I wouldn't change it 336 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:13,000 so online I noticed that you you sell like your prints and that sort of stuff do you have um 337 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:17,640 and like you mentioned about your mum your mum purchasing you some of your early stuff that you 338 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:24,040 made do you sort of have this idea about the value of your your art or the value of your 339 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:32,040 your creativity that it's dependent on what you get for it or that society can still value art 340 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:38,920 even if it doesn't have a monetary value attached to it um that's a good question I think 341 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:47,480 I don't know I feel like deep in me I'm a little bit of a people pleaser so I feel like when 342 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:54,760 when I do sell a work of art I get very excited especially because I don't sell very many I'm I 343 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,400 don't have a whole lot of time and when I do do commissions they usually take me anywhere from 344 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,720 like six to eight months to complete because I don't have a lot of time to work on them so 345 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:15,160 those I do like I don't know it does make me happy however I do feel like um almost more so when I 346 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:22,280 someone sees a work that I've done or when they purchase it and then they tell me how they feel 347 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:30,440 about it like it makes it 10 times better like I would much rather have someone look at my work 348 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,800 and say that really affected me or changed my life or really touched me then I would sell the 349 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,680 work to someone that I don't even know if they appreciate it if that makes sense so yeah so I do 350 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:50,040 I do feel like there's um I don't know there's a lot of worth in just the work without it being 351 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:59,960 sold however it does you know I do like when it gets sold yeah yeah yeah no I could like a lady 352 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:05,720 I spoke to the other day um put it really well said like as artists we sort of exist to be able 353 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:12,440 to share and and like whatever things that have influenced or things we're going through that we 354 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:18,840 put into our work it's so lovely if someone at the other end can relate to that in their own way um 355 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:36,120 and then if they tell you about it that's even better you know yeah 100% agree with that yeah 356 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,120 yeah 357 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,600 did you notice after you had your girls after you became a mum that what influenced your work changed 358 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:06,520 I mean yes yes it did there was an influence however I also feel like I have so many ideas 359 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,840 of things that would show that a lot more I feel like in the work that's on my instagram 360 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:19,000 there isn't a lot that's child related or any I don't know you know what I'm talking about 361 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:25,080 anything like that however I have like I do have a picture of my girls that I've started painting 362 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:32,920 that I just love and I love the idea of kids when they like discover new things like my 363 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:38,440 littlest Millie here the other day found her toes and we she was just sitting just sitting in the 364 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,400 bumbo just in like a little seat on my counter just playing with her toes and she was just so 365 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,240 full of wonder and I'm like that would be just the perfect little like little picture of just 366 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:55,320 her toes and her her cuteness and there's I don't know just when like kids go outside and they see 367 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,720 I don't know birds or something my my middle child Oakley the other day we were on a drive 368 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,080 and she was like birds I see birds there's two of them and she was just so thrilled at the idea of 369 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:14,280 seeing birds I'm like I would love to capture just that happiness and that wonder of that just that 370 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,400 that excitement so I feel like somewhere down the line there's going to be some works of mine that 371 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:29,720 encompass just childhood wonder because I really I really enjoy that and I think also with some of my 372 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,840 my religious pieces I have a few of those that I would like to work on and just to kind of share 373 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,440 that with my girls and have that feeling in our household and share that with the world too would 374 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:48,760 be would be really nice so yeah absolutely I feel like that because like I said I worked in in early 375 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,960 childhood for a long time and that moment when kids discover something it's just this just when 376 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,360 you were telling me about it then I was getting that that beautiful like warm feeling and almost 377 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:04,040 like goosebumps like it's just I think as adults we just we've seen it all we take it all for granted 378 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,960 and then when you're brought back to those minuscule tiny moments like toes you just it blows your mind 379 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:17,640 and just it's wonderful yeah I love it I think we need to have more moments like that where we just 380 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:27,800 stop and look at our toes and go oh my god the world's amazing yeah especially in this busy busy world 381 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,560 yeah and that's it isn't it and then you know we've got all these distractions and things that 382 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:37,480 are there to take our time up and you can we can sort of lose track of what's just you know the most 383 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,400 important stuff no it's right in front of us and sometimes we don't see it 384 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,200 sorry I'm getting all philosophical now 385 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,440 by the way I love the way you said grand before because my Irish friends say grand all the time 386 00:39:54,440 --> 00:40:00,360 oh that's grand they say oh I love it probably my mom and me 387 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,360 yeah no I love that 388 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,360 I love that 389 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,800 so have you got any pieces that you're working on anything you want to share about future works or 390 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:33,560 anything at all so I mean I have really a lot of work to do and I'm really excited about it and 391 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:40,520 I'm looking forward to it I'm looking forward to getting to do some of my own books or anything at all 392 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:50,200 so I mean I have my one painting that you can see on my Instagram of a pioneer lady and for 393 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:58,360 for me with that painting I really wanted to kind of symbolize the strength of women and just um 394 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:06,840 the Mormon pioneers. I won't go into detail about it, but basically they came across the 395 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:13,400 plains in hand carts during all types of weather and faced lots of hardships to arrive in Utah and 396 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:22,280 eventually, you know, make their city and live and, what's the word I'm looking for, 397 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:30,920 have their religion as they wanted to. But there's so many stories about just how strong those 398 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,600 women were and what they went through. And I mean, they had children and family members who passed 399 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:44,840 away and there was, I don't know, there's just a lot for me that I look up to in the pioneer women. 400 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,480 And I just wanted to, I don't know, I just wanted to kind of capture that in a painting. And I don't 401 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:56,680 think I'm there yet. I still feel like there's a few things that I need to add or do, but that is 402 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:03,160 the main one that I'm working on is just, I want to paint a strong, powerful woman who's been through 403 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:10,840 a lot, but also knows she's doing it for a purpose. So that's my main one. And then, 404 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:18,200 I don't know, I had an idea the other day from a friend to do with my kids. She showed me 405 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,760 someone painting a little, one of their little kids stuffed animals and all of my girls have a 406 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:30,360 little stuffed animal that they just adore. In fact, they're kind of my eldest elder too, 407 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,600 they're kind of torn to pieces. They get chewed on and they were loved. I mean, honestly, 408 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,480 they're a little bit gross for anyone except for my girls, right? I'm like, how sweet would that be 409 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:46,680 just to have all three of them on a shelf just to represent my children? And we'll see, but 410 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,800 you know, got to get through this other one first. 411 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,880 That's the thing when you've got so many ideas, it's like literally, 412 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,840 yeah, you've got to actually have the time to do all these ideas. 413 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,320 Yeah, well, I have a page in my sketchbook of like, oh, this is something I want to paint, 414 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,960 this is something I want to paint or draw. And there's a whole long list of them. I will never 415 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:15,320 be out of ideas. I just need a bit more time. Yeah, not short of ideas. I love that. 416 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,280 Is it important to you that they see you as more than in your mothering role? And I don't say just 417 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,080 a mum, I've got to stop saying that because we're not just a mum. But yeah, more of them the mothering 418 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:59,880 role. Yes, I think anytime you can show your kids how you can be your own person, but also 419 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:11,400 be a mum at the same time. I have an aunt who growing up, she was also a young mother and then 420 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,800 also did art. And I came to stay with her for a little while and she showed me her portfolio. 421 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,680 And I was just amazed at her skill and her talent and how she was still able to, 422 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:27,400 you know, paint and draw and do the things she loved and also still have kids because I was like, 423 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,760 that's what I want to be doing. And so it was nice to have someone to look up to, to be like, 424 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,280 no, she can do it, I can do it too. And so I think it is good. Even if my children 425 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:45,080 don't end up into art or don't want to be creative in something, I think just showing them that 426 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,280 you don't have to be just one thing in your life. You can be a multitude of things, I think is 427 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,640 important. Yeah, that's very well said. I like that. Because I think it doesn't have to be a 428 00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:00,360 thing in particular, like you said, doesn't, they don't have to take it on, but it's, it's saying 429 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:07,080 that mums can do lots and lots of different things and things that don't necessarily revolve around 430 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,560 that mothering role. Yeah, for sure. As I was, I don't know what question it was, as I was going 431 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:19,480 through some stuff, I got thinking about myself, I think it was talking about like identity maybe, 432 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:25,960 and just that there's my one aunt always tells me, she's like, there's a time in a season that, 433 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:31,480 you know, right now you're raising your children and that's a beautiful, wonderful thing. And then 434 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,480 later you're going to have an amazing time doing your art or whatever it is you'd like to do. 435 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:42,920 And so I got thinking about how I sometimes feel, feel bad that, or like feel like I'm missing out 436 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,400 because I haven't gotten myself out there. Like you scroll through Instagram or social media and 437 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:53,240 you see like all of these moms doing it and more like accomplishing what you want to, but, or even 438 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:59,240 people that aren't moms just, you know, being out there and doing things. And I think sometimes I 439 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:05,400 get down on myself thinking like, Oh man, like, did I, did I mess up somewhere? Did I, you know, 440 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:12,120 did I have kids too early? But then I realized like, I'm not, I'm not ruining my chances by having, 441 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,720 by having kids. Cause there's still going to be, there's still going to be time. And I heard this 442 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:26,600 analogy that it was, it was talking about how being creative is kind of like exercise. And it's like, 443 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:35,000 it's preferable every day to exercise. I mean, if we could, it would be really great, wouldn't it? 444 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:42,200 But it's not like a must has to be done. You have to exercise. And if you went to the doctor and 445 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:48,440 you said, I am so sorry. It's been two years since I've exercised. I'm just going to quit because I 446 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:56,520 can't do it anymore. I've forgotten how to do it. I'm done. Like, I'm sorry. I've given up. I can't 447 00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:03,480 do it. No doctor is going to be like, you're right. You haven't done, you haven't exercised in two 448 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,600 years or five years or 10 years. You can't exercise anymore. It will not be good for you. I mean, 449 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,120 that would just be, that would be ridiculous. So it's the same way with, with your craft, whatever 450 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:20,920 it is that you choose to do. Like it doesn't matter if you've had a 10 year break, if you said, 451 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,800 Hey, I have children and I want to raise them and I haven't done it in 10 years. You can always start 452 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:33,720 back again. You can always do a little thing. Even just five minutes here and there, it's only going 453 00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:39,960 to make you better. It's not going to be any worse for you than just leaving it behind. 454 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:47,320 Cause I feel like at one point when I had my first daughter, I didn't paint for a really long time 455 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:54,440 because I just couldn't find time for it. And I just, you know, it's difficult because you're 456 00:47:54,440 --> 00:48:00,440 getting used to a whole new life with a little baby. And I thought to myself, is this it? Should 457 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:08,680 I be, should I be done? Like, should I give it up? And that's just silly. I eventually learned like 458 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:16,360 I go crazy if I don't paint. Like I, I can't not be creative. And when I try, I just, it's like, 459 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,680 I'm about to explode. I get in this big bubble and then I'm like, I give up and just everything, 460 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:25,720 you know, it kind of all goes to pot. And then I just, I spend all day painting and 461 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,920 the house becomes a mess. And my husband wonders what happens. And I'm like, I'm sorry. It had been 462 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:39,960 too long. He's so nice. He understands that some days that's how it's going to be. But anyway, 463 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,800 but yeah, I just really liked that. It's like, it's just like exercise. Even if you've left it 464 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:49,960 for a long time, you could always go back to it. And so what there will be days when you'll get 465 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,120 you'll get, you won't do anything, but then there'll be other days where you'll get in the zone and 466 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:59,160 get lots of work done and it'll be great. Yeah. No, I love that. That's really good. I've never 467 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,280 heard anyone put it quite like that. That's really good. Love that. And I think it's so true. And a 468 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:10,200 lot of moms say this, if, if they're not filled up, you know, the cups not filled up, the metaphor, 469 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,920 you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. If you haven't done the things that make you regulated 470 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:20,680 and fulfilled, then you're not going to go out into your family and project, you know, perhaps 471 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,800 the person that you want to be. So it is so important to do these things for ourselves. And 472 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:31,080 it just makes for an all rounder, you know, more harmonious household, I guess. 473 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:40,520 Until Shannon does something in the play. I've just got a vision in my head of your daughter. 474 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:47,240 I just love that. Oh, I do. Little Jim. Thank you so much for coming on Hannah. I loved your chat 475 00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:53,480 today. It's been gorgeous meeting little Miss Millie here. Hey, little darling. Thank you for 476 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:59,320 having me. I feel really special that you let me join. I was going through all your podcasts and 477 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,240 listening to all of these other wonderful women and their stories. And I'm like, I don't think I 478 00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:09,960 have anything to add on these people. Oh my gosh. No, you have so much to add. They have such good 479 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:17,640 information. Oh, no, no, it was never feel like that. You've got so much to add. And honestly, 480 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:25,240 that imposter syndrome too, you know, oh, yes. Yeah. Kick it to the curb. There you go. Bye bye. 481 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:33,560 Imposter syndrome. Yeah. No, good on you. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've 482 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:39,560 enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to 483 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:45,480 the podcast or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. If you or someone you 484 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,040 know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the 485 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:57,720 show notes. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alem Joe, which is my new age 486 00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:03,080 ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. 487 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:09,160 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. I'll catch you again 488 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,400 next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Dana Stephensen Senior Dancer with the Australian Ballet S2 Ep39 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Dana Stephensen, Senior Artist with the Australian Ballet Company and a mother of 3 children, including twin girls, At the age of three Dana began her dance training with Davidia Lind in jazz, tap, ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley before studying with the Queensland Dance School of Excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance Solo Seal. Dana joined The Australian Ballet School in 2002. In her graduating year she was seconded to The Australian Ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full-time in 2005. She has since enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Paris. At the end of 2008, Dana was awarded the Khitercs Hirai Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Dana was promoted to coryphée (a leading dancer in a corps) in 2010 and went on to win the Telstra Ballet Dancer Award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014 and to senior artist in 2018. In 2020 Dana took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company, at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with fiancé Lachy Gillespie AKA the Purple Wiggle . Today Dana shares her story of her experience with post natal depression and anxiety, and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world so we talk a lot about ballet! **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety** Read more about Dana and follow her on instagram Dana would love you to visit : www.cope.com.au www.panda.com.au www.gigetfoundation.org.au Upcoming Australian ballet Shows Read and listen to the part of Swan Lake I was trying to describe Read the Sydney Morning Herald article Read about Wayne McGregor and Dyad 1929 Podcast - instagram / website Music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets Swan Lake, Peter and the Wolf, The Nutcracker and Giselle. Photo by Jeff Busby of Dana performing in the ballet The Sleeping Beauty. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast today. Danna Stevenson, Donna is a senior artist with the Australian ballet and a mother of three children including twin girls. At the age of three, Diana began her dance training with de Vidya land in jazz tap ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley, before studying with the Queensland dance school of excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance solo seal, Donna joined the Australian ballet school in 2002. In her graduating year, she was seconded to the Australian ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full time in 2005. Since that time, she's enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, the UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo and Paris. At the end of 2008 Danna was awarded the catex HiRISE Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Donna was promoted to Cara fee, a leading dancer in a core and went on to win the Telstra ballet dancer award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014, and two senior artists in 2018. In 2020, Donna took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with her fiance, Locky Gillespie, also known as the purple wiggle. Today Diana shares her story and her experience with postnatal depression and anxiety and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world. So we talk a lot about ballet and music. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. The music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets of Swan Lake, Peter in the wolf, the Nutcracker. And Giselle, I hope you enjoy. Welcome, Donna, thank you so much. It's lovely to have you today. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have a chat. Yeah, for sure. So you're a senior artist, you've obviously been dancing ballet for quite a while. Can you tell us how you first got started? I started dancing when I was three. So my earliest memories really are of me being a dancer, obviously a little bit different to what I am now. But I think it is quite interesting that that's kind of where memory kind of starts to form for children, here and there. And so my earliest memories are of dancing. So I actually started because my sister was dancing at the time. She's two years older than me. And she had started a general jazz class at the local dance school with some school friends. Because she was really shy, really, really shy like hiding behind mom shy. So it was a way of kind of getting her into something social and something to bring her out a bit. Yes, it was parent watching week that week, and I went with mum. And I was sitting at the back and I just started, I just stood up and started joining in the class. And then they were doing cartwheels. And I just was all a part of it, basically. And the teacher came over to mom and said, Oh, I think this little one probably wants to have a go, you know, come around to the little little East class and other day. And I think it just started like that. And then quite quickly, I started the Stanford team. I was there five days a week, and then six days like, by that before I started school, probably a bit more. It was like, more is more. I just danced all the time. I was at school or I dance that was that was how it was. Yeah, right. So it was literally your sister got you into it, which is really cool. My sister got me into singing, like formal singing, like because she joined. And I wanted to do it too. So that's a really cool, so it's your sister older. Now she's younger. And I think that's why I wanted to do it. Because it was like, well, she gets to draw, I should be doing it. Because yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit ironic because my sister started doing a jazz class. And I started with that. And then I started taking ballet and tap, and then all the different, all the different things. And my sister stuck with that one jazz class a week until maybe she was 10. She would, she would get so worked up before it and we didn't know this until she was older that she would get so sick to her stomach about going to dancing because it was such a big deal for her to have people looking at her. And meanwhile, her little sister was just you know, couldn't get enough of it. Interestingly, Brie my sister Bree, she would have done so well in ballet. Yeah, I was very much metrical one. And then I found ballet to be my path a lot later. Whereas my sister, she would have actually loved ballet. And she says that now I wish I'd just done ballet, not jazz, because that's all out there. And yeah, a bit chunky. Whereas ballet, she's she actually would have loved the discipline. And the, you know, the teacher sets the exercise. And you do that, and it's a bit quieter? Not not so much like, like jazz hands in the spotlight kind of thing. Yeah. So then how did you get into the ballet side of things? Was it just something you were offered? And, and then you sort of just thought, I love this so much. I'm just gonna go with it. Yeah, it's quite interesting, because I think as a child, I am sure this is the case. For most children. I just love dancing. I didn't really, obviously there were the dance styles. But I didn't differentiate between what each one was, I just loved the whole thing. And then once I started doing istead, fits and being on stage and the lights and the feeling of that, and taking on a different character, it was all one in the same. Obviously, there's different elements to each sort of style, but I just loved all of it. So it wasn't until I was a teenager, and every time that musicals would come to Brisbane, I'm from Brisbane. So you know, once he went fame would calm or Chicago or whatever it was, we'd go and but also every time the Australian ballet would come, you know, on the Saturday matinee mum would take me to that. And that was a big event of the year too. So it all just kind of was coinciding, and I had no preference whatsoever, until as a teenager, you do start to need to take a bit more of a structured path if you are going to follow ballet, but my school at the time did video in Dance Center where I went when I was three, she she had never had a ballet dancer. So that needed more ballet training as a teenager because no one had kind of got that fire in their belly exams at the time. So I actually had to find some teachers externally to help me. And then I was an interstate associate with the Australian Ballet School, which is in Melbourne, which is the school that does feed into the Australian ballet company. And so that meant I could come down for a week, every year to do like a winter school. And when they came to Brisbane, we do a master class, but it was still just happening bubbling along. But then the audition came to do for the first level five year which is about 15. At the Australian Ballet School, the senior school is level six, seven and eight. That's like your finishing training. But they're just started a level five and that was half ballet half school. And so I auditioned for that and was very hopeful about getting in and I didn't get in. And I was really really disappointed. And I couldn't have said it at the time. But I think that was a really big catalyst in thinking I obviously really want to do this. It's not happening right now. And I, I think I really, I want that to be happening. So the next year, I went to a school in Brisbane called the Queensland at school of excellence, which was, again, half Valley High School, but a version of that in Brisbane, and auditioned again for the Australian ballet school the next year. Yep. And got in the next year, and then did my three years and then got into the company. Yeah, so yeah, that moment, it's like, the level of disappointment you felt made you sort of realize i, this is how much I want this. This is it's almost like, it's not great that you didn't get in, but it's almost like you needed that to confirm it for you to make you go right, I'm gonna go for this really, this is what I want to do. So I think so it was an probably a strong indication to that I needed to probably blinkers on a little bit. And just focus a bit more on that. Having said that, I was I loved my high school, and I loved my school friends. And I, I think that's something you know, I've always had, I have always kind of needed to have a balanced sort of life. I was never like a Betty bonehead. And I'm still not. But at the same time, I think I needed to probably think, Okay, well, if this is what you want to do, there's a few steps that need to be taken. And so I took those steps and worked really hard and I was very lucky to get in that next time. So then what what sort of direction did you Korea take from then after that, getting in there. So they strain bicycles, three years and then. So your final year, you start to do a lot more performing. And very fortunately, at the time, the company who's in the same building, so it's really special at the school, because you can't just walk down the corridor, and like, put your little face at the windows, and you see the company dancing and rehearsing and all your idols and like it's, you know, coming from Brisbane, and coming down into this world. It was so scary, overwhelming, amazing, exciting, just all of those things. And then to, to think and dream about getting to the other end of the corridor and getting into those company rooms one day. But yeah, at the time, when I was in my last year at the school, that company had, we're doing lots of different seasons, but there was quite a few injuries. So they needed some extra dancers. And at that time, they often seconded dancers from the school to go join that company. So they had a couple of us learn a particular ballet symphony and see, and then the next night I was on, basically, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was like a baptism of fire. But at the same time, I feel like looking back at that age, you're so ready. And that's what you're training for. And obviously, that's an amazing opportunity. And then that opportunity turned into a longer opportunity. I danced with the company for almost all their seasons that year. And so I was very lucky to have the, the staff and obviously the artistic director at the time, David McAllister, he could see me across a whole year almost, as opposed to going in one day for an audition somewhere, they have no idea who you are, where you've come from any story. And you have to somehow impress someone in in a glimpse or in a half an hour class, then, you know, to this day, I still find that hard when people come into cars valets, I'm like, I don't even know what you want to see like, and that's fine. By this point. You're just like, I need this is what I've got. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, all right, then that's kind of the nature of the industry. There's still something that I I find quite challenging. But like I said, at that at that time of, you know, trying to get my first job, I was very fortunate to have a long audition process. And not for a second though, did I think I would get a job the following year, but then at the end of the year, when they gave contracts out, they gave two female contracts and two male contracts and I was one of the females. That was lucky enough Did you get a job with the company then? Yeah, right. So then that meant you're part of that, that room that you've been sort of peeking in and looking out for those years, that would have been incredible. It really is. It's, you know, there's so much looking up to in ballet, you know, you watch videos in such a different world now, with the internet and YouTube, but back in the day, you'd have back in the day. But so, but no, I would watch the same videos at the Australian ballet company every Saturday over and over, and over, and I knew everything they did inside out. And then he walked down once a move to Melbourne. And then he walked down the corridor and that person, right there real quick. So, yeah, it's, I think it's a really lovely thing. And there's substitution traditions in ballet that really need to move forwards. But there's certain traditions that are really lovely, like when you're doing the company, and there's a lot of respect, obviously, for the principles. And if they don't have a passport, and you're absolutely a first year, you do not take a spot at the bar. And some of those things seem a bit archaic. But I also think in our, our industry and our career, those people have worked to where they've got to, and they who we look to and the epitome of that. And I actually loved that. Yeah, it's like that level of respect that you can show someone's in that, like, we were talking before about being called a ballerina. That's a title that you've earned. And, you know, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, I guess all dancers feel differently about that. And that's a personal preference. But I don't feel that comfortable when people refer to me as a ballerina, because I'm not that, in my mind. I'm, for many reasons, I'm not that I'm a bit left field as a ballerina, but also, they're the people I look up to. They're the people who have earned that title as ballerinas of the company. And I've done a lot of amazing work, and I'm so proud of where I'm at, and the rain. COVID chi is something beyond my wildest dreams. But yeah, I even in like, you know, the smallest context when you know, even like, when a little girl calls me a ballerina like, Oh, I'm not quite I'm sorry. No, okay. Yeah, in my by myself, like, oh, that's, that's, that's those people. That's not me. Yeah, yeah, I can I just say that. It's, yeah, I think, like you said, there's probably a lot of things that can change. But I think there's nothing wrong with respecting people like you, like you the story that you've just outlined the amount of work that's gone in, you know, and there's people you know, that's what they do, they dedicate their entire life to their art. So I think there's, you know, there's a time and space for like, you know, some tradition, respect Yeah. Just while we're talking about that, I'll just mention quickly, my I went to school with two girls who went on to become dancers, dances with different ballets. I'm not sure if you know, Rachel Walsh, or if you've heard of Rachel, she was happy to fall. Yeah, we went through school together, up to I think she left you 10 might have been a last year in that Gambia. And then she went off to do her thing, which she's done, amazingly. And we've been chatting a bit. So we're organizing that she'll come on the show in the future, which is really cool. And another girl called, she's Lisa Robinson, and she went to Canada, I think, to do her dance, he or she ended up in Canada. She's there now. But it was just amazing that at that time, when you're when you're teenagers, you have no idea what these girls are doing what they're going through, you just go Oh, yeah, they're dead. They're dancing, you know, but they're, like you've described your whole world you switched on, that's your focus. And everything involved in that too. Like your, your way you eat, I suppose and the way you look after your body and the exercises you do and the training that you do. And here we are just you know, teenagers worrying about, you know, what the boys are up to or you know, it's just all different, different world. Like that's it. That's a really interesting point because I I think ballet dancers have to make certain decisions much earlier. You know, it would it's, it's comparable with elite athletes, but they have to make quite adult is an adult grown up decisions about what they'd like to do how they'd like to achieve it. But at quite a young age, I moved to Melbourne, I was 16. But I know there's other kids, I'd say, Yeah, you know, at 1415. And they might be in the boarding house or, you know, different, different home setups. And I can't comment on anyone else's experience, obviously. But you look back and you think, oh, that's, that's actually a massive deal. But at the time, and this is, this is the sort of people we are, who are who are drawn to what, to who are drawn to doing what this what we do, you have to be so driven, and dedicated, and focused, single minded focus and determined, resilient, they're all the skills that you're building up in your teenage years, which is not often I'd say, traditionally, the years you're building up those things. Oh, and, you know, staying open to things and so you, you did, probably there's a sense of isolation in that. I mean, I had great school friends around me who they were just like Danna does ballet. And that's really great. I know, other people have had different experiences by being so different. Obviously, a lot of men in the company, I've had lots of bullying experiences, I got a little bit about how small I was, and how, how focused I was, I guess, but I had really good people around me and I have a really amazing family who's not involved in ballet at all, really grounded. And it was all a bit of a new experience for me. And I felt a bit protected in that honestly. But yeah, it is it is. It feels like you're a bit ahead in many ways, at that age, because you have to be, but that's what prepares you for the career you're about to have. And to be able to handle the pressure that you have to at really quite a young age. Would you say, Don't put words in your mouth, but I've never been in the ballet world. Is it? Like I don't want to say cutthroat but is it a hugely intense? Like you talked about the having to audition? Like is there so much pressure to keep yourself at a certain level or and you're competing with other people all the time? Or if I got that really not on the mark? No, you're pretty spot on. What's probably a bit less expected is that it's it's a lot more nuanced than that in terms of it is cutthroat and it's competitive. And in a company, and I've been in a company for 18 years now, which I can't believe I still feel like I'm 16 It's a bit like that, I feel like you just keep you a little bit young somehow, in some way. But anyway, I do. It's a really interesting competitiveness. Because essentially, you're vying for the same roles all the time. And you're Korea is in is ideally solely in your hands and your work and the effort you're putting in and energy and your commitment, and your training, your resilience and your reliability. There's so many skills that are in your control. But there's also a really big one, which is someone else's opinion, and that at the end of the day, sometimes trumps everything. And I think a good thing to remember with that, though, is that across your career, you will be on both sides of that, you'll be on the side where someone comes in and just thinks you're the bee's knees. And they'll then there's the times that you're on the other side of that, which is someone who's not interested in you at all. And so everyone has their moments either side. And you know, you might have a couple of bad years where you feel like nothing's going your way. And trying to stay motivated in that time and internally driven and internally motivated, is very challenging. And I think that again, we move into this career quite young, I was performing at 17 with the National Ballet Company, which you know, there were younger people than that even so, especially young, but at that age, you're dealing with quite a lot of pressure and competitiveness. And you know, I've got children and you know, what would you want to tell your children You're perfect as you are, you know, just go out there and do a good job. Just work hard, and that's the most important thing. How do you tell someone or they just don't want Like, how you look? Yeah, like, that's just always, you know, obviously, in ballet, there's, you know, a lot of scope to talk about body types and body aesthetics. And the Australian ballet is really healthy in terms of that. There's, we all look really different. There's lots of different heights, and different body styles and different ways of moving, which ultimately, is the most important thing. But there is a lot of versatility in our company now. But sometimes it really is, they don't like how you look, or how you can't, which is the way you personally express yourself. So it's pretty heart wrenching sometimes because they're like how someone else does it more. And some, sometimes just thinking about almost as clearly as as brutal as it is, is the best way. Like, that's how they're doing it. I'm doing this over here. And as you get older, and more experienced, and I think weed life experience, obviously kind of boosting you. On all sides, you realize that this is all you have is what you are and what you bring. And if it's not your turn right now, it might be your turn next month. Yeah, I'm, that is such a incredible way of looking at things like that. It's so pragmatic. It's just an I personally, it took me a long time to get to that point with music, because it's, it's the same thing people like what you're doing or you don't, and it's you, you're putting yourself out there. And I got to a point. Like I used to do a Stanford to for singing. And one year I just thought, why am I doing this, I'm letting one person's opinion, decide how I feel about myself. And I just thought, I'm not doing this anymore. I don't, I don't want to feel like this. And I just stopped doing it. And then I can sort of like put myself up for different awards or put things online. And I feel like, if it's not my turn, it's someone else's turn. And that's they need that right now in their life. And it's become a really great way of me being able to just go, Oh, that's good, that's nice and not be worried about stuff anymore. Which took a long time, like, I'm nearly 44. So it's like, it's a thing that you have to go through, I think because no one can sit you down and say, right, this is how you should feel about failure. I think it's something you have to sort of work through yourself. But I love that I really love that the way I've described that. I think experience, you need experience on both sides of that coin. And you know, another thing in the company, you join the company, and we all have, we all have a certain level of talent that makes us ballet dancers. And then beyond that we all have our unique talents. And some of us, I'm a really good jumper, for example, because of how I'm built and I'm really athletic. But my whole life my whole career, I've wished I've looked like the other girls who are so beautiful and so elegant. And just total ballerinas and I have lots of energy, and it serves me really well sometimes. And other times I hold over a lot. I've just come to embrace and everyone's like Dan is on the floor again. Because I've gone through obviously different phases with what I've felt like on my own failures or weaknesses. Yeah. And of course, as a younger dancer, there is something so much about your work ethic. If I just work hard enough, I can change that. And there is merit to that, about working on our weaknesses, but ultimately, focusing on our strengths and amplifying them actually, is so much more. I don't know, it's you're so much more yourself, if that's what you're focusing on what you're putting your attention to. I spent, you know, my early years in the company were quite tricky. And I was having battles with, with what eventually became Hashimotos thyroiditis. So thyroid disease, which was undiagnosed for a long time. Yeah, and my body's a lot and being a professional ballet dancer and having a really low it's an autoimmune disease. But yeah, it's, it was really challenging. And so I was finding it very hard to have confidence in anything about myself and then when it came to my dancing, I was still in that mindset of if I could just make my legs look nicer if I you know, I've got really strong feet but they're not aesthetically beautiful like a lot of the other girls like I don't know, how about it, it's a really honor. Some other people probably say that to which I say hats off to you. But yeah, I just if I could just make that better. Yeah, my career will be better. But ultimately, it's it's not it's your career is going to be what it is. And they're, they're in a ballet camp, there is always room for a dancer like me. And that took time and maturity to realize there is someone has to be the person jumping, someone has to be the one moving fast. I'm a bit messy. And I'm always working on my footwork and trying to clean things up. But someone has to do that. And once I felt confident in that, that was something I could do that those other girls were like, how do you do that? I was like, I don't know, I just get in the air man, like, Oh, I'd love to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to stand still like you is a place that can be a place for everyone. And sometimes when it comes to casting things swing your way. And other times, they don't you realize your opportunities out there, you make the most of them. And then when you can see maybe there, what's tricky in the company, there might be a season you're not in very much, or there's not a lot of work for you. But you never know what's coming up next. And you know, often we do know what's coming up, but you never know what your next opportunity might be. So if you drop the ball, and think, Oh, this is my, this is my season where it's a bit average, or I'll just won't bother. Ya know what Julie, you might miss next because you're not ready. And that's these are the things that I have no doubt, I can say 100% have have created the opportunities that have actually made me and made my career not because, you know, I was built a certain way, being in the right place at the right time has has been very good to me. Yeah, and that you're right. It's like, it's you unless you're, unless you're ready for that opportunity when it comes? Well, actually, this person sort of slackened off a bit this year, because, you know, they didn't get so many roles. And we can see that. So we'll go to the next person, you know, so yeah, you've got to, you've always got to be motivated and still working and which would be intensely draining. Like it sounds like, you know, it's a full on life. Like you're just, I mean, obviously, lots of people do it. So it's sustainable. But from my point of view, someone who's not a dancer at all, and not highly motivated. It really it is and again, as a young student, you don't, it's what you want to do. It's your passion, it's your drive, you love it, you can't imagine not doing it. And you're willing to give up almost anything to do it. And it's so enjoyable. Like, I love dancing. I know last night I was on stage, and my old nanny actually was watching and she hadn't seen me dance after all these years. And she said, Oh, gosh, it just looks so much fun. And I said to her, I was like, I just have a stupid amount of fun when I'm on stage. And I know I've got my little kids at home, and I hope they're asleep and they ate them. And then I just had this. I know it's not a guilt, like guilty pleasure. I just, it's just so fun. Like, and I'm just lucky, I still enjoy what I do so much. But it is a lifestyle. It's it's not. It's not it's not a job for us. And I think, again, I can't speak for everyone else. But if it becomes a job, I don't think it's right anymore. Because it is so much more than that. And you have to put so much more into it. And in terms of just your hours, you know, we work really long hours, unusual hours. We rehearse in the days. We train every day, six days a week. We have Sundays off but we try and live every morning. We rehearse every day. We perform at night, but we don't just go in for the show at night. We train in the morning, rehearse show, two shows Wednesday two shows that day. 200 shows a year. It's yeah, it's the Australian ballet is one of if not the top amount of you know shows per year in terms of ballet companies. Yeah. Which takes a certain amount of resilience and managing your body and your mind over that time becomes a really important skill that you learn. It takes years to learn how to manage that. Yep, yeah. Can I help? Sorry, we were really doing a lot of talking about your ballet, which is dope, we will get to your family, it's okay. I'm just so honored to be able to speak to you. And I really want to squeeze everything out that I can because it's just really exciting. Like I said, my exposure to ballet, like with the girls that I grew up with, it was it was a world that I knew nothing about. I loved it. And I love watching ballet, it's just blows my mind how graceful and incredible it is. So I just want to ask you lots of things. I'm more than happy. You know, it's a lot of people find it quite a you know, it is this mysterious kind of world. And I'm, I'm always wanting to encourage people to ask questions. And it's, you know, there's obviously that version of ballet people often think about in their heads. And often it's a bit different to that. Or then there's the other one, which is like, Oh, is it like Black Swan? And it's like, well, there's little bits that are absolutely true. I'll be the first to tell you that it's not quite like that. But I think it's lovely that people are interested in in what we do. It's always a lovely thing. Awesome. Well, that's good. You can indulge me a bit longer than Absolutely. All right. So I'd like to ask you what your favorite roles have been that you've played and why. And I didn't even I didn't even give you a heads up. I was gonna ask you this. Sorry. No, that's, that's really I like being on the spot. Oh, that's really tricky. Because I'm, I mean, I've been so lucky. fortunate to have had such a wide range of roles and opportunities. Yeah, and across, you know, the starting Valley does a lot of strict classical ballet performances, you know, your swan lakes, you're not crackers does owls, kind of structurally classical ballet, Sleeping Beauty. And then we do a lot of contemporary modern work. And usually the year it's kind of somewhat, the balance is somewhat split. And I have had opportunities in kind of both sections of those repertoire groups. And it's kind of like when I was younger when people said, oh, did you like jazz or ballet? And I just liked it all. Yeah, it's the same thing. In what I do. Now, I just love it all. There's not one that's better than the other. And even as I get older, often people lean one way or the other. And I just, I just love it all, because I love dancing. And they all bring different challenges. I will say though, often certain roles at certain times in your career do seem to feel like they mean, even more. The one of my favorite, like all time, classical roles was Giselle. And I was very lucky I, I was able to dance the title role of Giselle, which I would never normally be casting because there's so many other girls who are so beautiful at it. And that's just the nature of it. Sometimes you don't get it, you know, you might get a go of all those girls weren't so good. But also, you know, stylistically, you know, some people might not cast me in that role, but it came out it came about because it was the regional tour of the Australian ballet goes out. And that year on I had my son Jasper a few months earlier. And I was talking with David McAllister, my director at the time about coming back and the the main company, we're actually going to London on tour then. And I was like, not up for that. Yeah. Actually, this is really great opportunity, if you would like the regional tour is taking out Giselle, and I think you'd make a really lovely Giselle, would you like to do it and this is like the Holy Grail of ballet. And I'm like, How can anyone say no like, like coming back after maternity leave? You know, talk about like not working your way up. It's like, it's the most incredible ballet role. It's the romantic ballet period. So it's not, you know, it's your long kind of soft tutus. Not your sticky outy. tutus. Yeah. And it's it's a beautiful ballet about this young peasant girl who falls in love. And then she realizes that he's actually a royal and he's engaged to someone else. And she has a weak heart anyway, and her she basically, cat, you know, goes into such a state and her heart gives way and she, she dies. And then the second act is the ethereal, otherworldly spirit world. And so she is one of the willies. They're called. And this beautiful quarter ballet scene, that's the big roof of the company, create this amazing atmosphere. They're like ghosts. And so Albrecht, who was the man she fell in love with comes to find her grave and her spirit. And she basically saves him because the Queen Miyata, Queen of the willies. So queen of all of these, you know, these girls who were jilted before their wedding days, they dance the man to death, anyone who dares enters the forest, you know, after dark, and Giselle with all her compassion and forgiveness dances until sunrise with our breaks this love of hers to save him. And, you know, it's a role that is so intricate, in terms of its dancing, but more than anything, just the story is so, so beautiful to tell, and you can really make your own mark on it. And to cut back after having a baby at that point, that role was so, so perfect and cathartic for me to dive into. Because there was just a whole new level of me that was able to have that absolute 100% all in love, compassion, forgiveness, I'll do anything for you know, that you have to have a child, that's just, you know, I don't even know how it comes out. But it's just a part of you. And I had this beautiful art form this beautiful music, this atmosphere and to just, you know, pour that all into so the timing of that roll, that roll in itself is is a gift to any ballet dancer or ballerina. Yeah, it's a real ballerina role. And, you know, I haven't had a lot of those ballerina moments, I could say, that might have been my one. But it was the timing of that, particularly that was so special in every single show. It's not about you know, if you got all your face positions, or if your turns were perfect. It's about, you know, your connection with your partner the atmosphere you create, and, and every show, I walked away just so happy and proud. And so touched and humbled by being able to do that at that time. You know, and I was like camping before the show. Yeah. And, you know, always bath in Jasper and then would rush to the theater and go into this other world. But that whole time did have this really special magic. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I will assume you. You've actually answered a question that I was going to ask you later about, because there's so much acting involved in your dancing. I think I think a lot of people realize that, that that's such a massive part of what you do. The way that you'd approach a role changed after you became a mom and you've just answered that without even asking it. It's just Yeah, I love I really think, again, that's a craft that you you have to learn across your years. You know, you come to as a young dancer and you're you're dancing and you know, you might do a bit of like, acting in terms of the ballets you're putting on it students, but that is a craft that you you learn and you know, I've been so fortunate that I've grown up in the company watching these incredible ballerinas and several of them were became mothers while they were still dancing, and I could see that transformation. I don't know how well they've had babies, but just the depth that the expression, the naturalness, the freedom, like there's so many things that come out of that, but you know, you sit there and you watch all those full rehearsals for the whole company in a room, running all these big ballets. And you you watch over the years how many We'll do those things. And when you get a chance to be able to wish I had at that point in time to put all of that in to a role. That was, yeah, such a magical time. Obviously, then there's valleys that don't have a story. And so, in terms of, you know, you're not acting per se, but you might, you know, there's obviously always envision in your mind that you're thinking of, or, you know, a vision the choreographer wants you to create, or an energy or a feeling or something in those kinds of contemporary works. And, you know, conversely, that's what I also enjoy about the contemporary repertoire that we, you know, we perform, is those kind of really physical, the expression is the physicality and the physical physicality almost has a persona, and you have a persona, when you're, you're dancing that even if there's not a story, yeah, that's your input, you embody those emotions or whatever the you're trying to get out. Yeah, yeah. And often, you know, obviously, ballet. For me anyway, the music is, it's the marriage of the ballet and the music, it's, that's when it comes to get it that alchemy, that's, that's what's, you know, goes across that, you know, the fault lines, that's what the audience takes on that their experience is that, you know, Alchemy that's happening in front of them, and that can be equally as powerful. In a contemporary work, I was very lucky I, when a choreographer call Wayne McGregor came out from the UK. He's a very, very renowned choreographer. And at the time, he just started as a resident choreographer at the Royal Ballet. So he was a contemporary choreographer, and then he started to move to the ballet space of it. And then not long after lots of ballet companies across the world, we're grabbing him to, like get a work by Wayne. Yeah, we were quite early in the piece, really, at that sort of time, we're able to, somehow now became, and he created a work called diet 1929 here, and that was a time he came into the room to obviously cast the ballet, we're in class, and I was quite young at the time, or maybe 24 or something, and, and I knew his work, I was like, so cool to be here. But you know, like, how do you how do you get in it? Yeah, you standing there doing fundraising? Like what can you see in my Tonberry, that's not very good, because I'm not very good at them still, that might show you that I or so want to be in your way. Anyway, really, you know, often ballets a cast from the hierarchy. So from the top of the company down, I was still in the quarterback at the time, which is, you know, the big ensemble down the bottom. But not everyone cast like that he came in, and he looked at the whole company as a whole. And it didn't matter where you were. Yeah, I think, anyway, very fortunately, got cast and his ballet, and then that ballet across my time. You know, that was such a, you know, working with him at that time was like groundbreaking for all of us. We've never worked with someone like this. He's so fast. He's so smart. He is. He does a lot of work with brain science and how he puts that into, you know, ballet and art a lot of people wouldn't even understand but for him, like, that's how he creates it. You watch his brain work. And you think, wow, I just like, you just see all the neurons firing. It was a really exciting time. It felt very, like we're in the moment cutting edge. And I, I was very fortunate to learn a spot in that. And so I was performing that and then across my career, every time we've done that ballot, then moved on to a different spot. Yeah, right. So for different spots in that valley, you know, we took it to New York. And you know, I did a different spot in that. And so I've kind of grown up in that valley. So that's one of my favorite contemporary pieces. Yeah, that's been my journey as well in terms of, I stepped up into, you know, different roles. And then my last show before I had my twin girls actually was in that valley in a white leotard, which is absolutely what you want to be in when you're pregnant with twins at 11 weeks. It's all it actually has been saying in about a month. So Valley mountains that you just, you cannot time it any better. But you are usually when you're, you know, early, you know, first trimester dancing, if you're pregnant, you have to be in a flesh leotard or while you're tired because it always happens like that. Nobody's like a free free dress or like something coming it's just always happens to fall in the most exposing of all so yeah, but same time that I knew that those were my last shows and I actually thought they were my last shows ever. And so to for it to be in that work. That particular work was really special to me, and I've done Lots of contemporary works. And they're all fantastic too. And they could so easily be my favorites. Yeah, but the timing again and what that whole valley and journey meant that yeah, that's a really special suspicion yeah I don't want to talk too much more about your ballet. I do want to, but I'm gonna make myself stop. But you've mentioned the music. And it's like, I absolutely that is. I don't want to say it's my favorite part of ballet because of course, the dancing is pretty awesome. But like you said, the way that it's all wrapped up together, and the costuming and everything and my favorite bit ever was in Swan Lake when because, you know, you've got that theme that dad did it, it did. I don't know what any of this is called. So just go with me here. When it turns when it changes at the end. And it's goes from being in a minor key tool, major key. And it's just it gives you goosebumps, it's like it just taught it tells you the story through the music, they don't even have to tell you what's happened to this character, this transformation. It's like you just hear in the music. And it's just that moment, every time I hear it, I just go Oh, survive. And to rely, you could just imagine how you How could you contain yourself when you're actually onstage doing that, like I always think like, it could just be like envelopes in it, you're just your whole body and your senses, it just be like charged, it'd be amazing. It's such a full body experience, I think and we are so used to that. And so it did that. And it's an incredible feeling, you know, some of the, the scores we dance to and, you know, some scores, you know, like the the big Tchaikovsky's or, you know, it's, you've heard them over and over. And I bet you've rehearsed. And I went and stopped going back. I can't stop, go back. You know, you've heard them cut up many times, you're often counting certain things. You know, the ballet we're dancing at the moment is Anna Karenina, and the score was made for this particular production. So it also marries so perfectly. Yeah. And, you know, it's a really tragic story, obviously. And there's some absolutely just heartbreaking musical moments that are just matched so beautifully with what's happening on stage. That, you know, we've seen it so many times. And it still it gives me goosebumps, and it still feels like ah, this is just like so. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's yeah, it's such a privilege, you know, to, to watch people in that moment or to be in that moment. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. It's beautiful. I love it all right, let's talk about your children. You've mentioned them briefly in passing. Tell us a little bit more about your family. I have three children, which still doesn't seem real when I say that to me. I'm not doing I do I do. Just make sure. I don't mean to discount the massiveness of that and I'm, I'm so fortunate to have been lucky enough to have three beautiful children. But I do still feel quite I don't know, I guess each day I'm just like treading water. So sometimes I don't stop to like acknowledge. Yeah, I've got three beautiful children. Jasper, my son is six. And he has grown up around the valley, which is a really unique, you know, he hasn't been here every every second but he's grown up around it. And He's toured with me and I went back to dancing after I had him dancing Giselle in that regional tour when he was nine months old. So he came out on the road with me and my mom and my mom has been like the biggest To support save, You're everything to me for my whole career. I mean, she was the one who took me to every dance class. And she is not a ballet mom at all. She doesn't know one step from the other. But she has just been there every moment. And so he's been very lucky to travel a little bit with me too, but he has a real appreciation for it. But yes, I have twin girls, Lulu, and Lottie, who are 18 months old now or a few days time. So they're little, very cheeky, very funny. little toddlers at the moment, were in that sweet stage before the that yes, I was. There's no twins in our family. And that came as a bit of a shock. Yeah. And, you know, I, this is something I think this is another part of the ballet world that, you know, I don't think he's really, I guess, thought about talked about, you know, obviously a woman's choice to have children when she has them. How that works with her career is a very, very personal choice. And I absolutely respect that people don't talk about it. But I think it's really interesting. And it's probably very similar for elite athletes. But again, I can just talk about the ballet experience. You know, artistically, you are, finally, after so many years of training, learning the craft, performing, you know, working, just optimizing, you get to your 30s, artistically, you're finally coming into your straps, you're not even there yet, probably you're just coming into your straps, you're coming into that zone, where it all starts to be cohesive and make sense. And you can feel that you can trust yourself, you can go for it. And that's also the years where you need to start about a family. And if you'd like to have one how that might work. And I think that is quite a battle for the dancers in that kind of part of their career, because how can you How could you possibly choose to stop? And then there's always thinking, Oh, what's it going to be like, on the other side, I'll lose a year I've got really good, you know, flow I've got, you know, you might be in a really good trajectory, you know, not just a ranking sort of thing. But just like with the roles, you're getting the impetus, the momentum, you're building your reputation, but just like how you feel in yourself, and then to then I'm just going to stop that now. And just take, firstly, nine months to have a baby. And I'm talking very pragmatically here. I know, this is obviously, you know, there's a whole lot more to it. But I'm just like to say it kind of nine months for that and then getting back into into it. How will that work? Who's my where's the support system? How would it work? It's I think it's a really daunting prospect. And you know, there's always like, Oh, but there's that ballet coming up next year. I've always wanted to do that. We can't dance till we're 60. It's not a career that lasts forever. So, yeah, I feel like you entered. I was lucky. I had Jasper when I was 30. And I was ready, then I was ready to stop. I was ready for it to not be about me. And I left it quite open in that sense. But yeah, I just think and you know, that's, you know, on the flip side, it's such a beautiful thing, that becoming a mum only makes your ballet career so much richer and so much more beautiful. And, you know, you can't know that beforehand. You see that in other people? But yeah, yeah. Also, then, you know, not that long after you might be thinking about retirement, I just think there's like this even like five year window, that's hyper pressure about what choices you're making, when you're making them. He's now a good time. If I'm, if I step away now, to do this, all those other girls are gonna get my impetus. And then when I come back when it's my place, it's, you know, but fortunately, I feel like when I chose to have my children, and when I, when I chose to have, you know, to say, Okay, I think I think I'm happy with what I've achieved here now, and I'd like to look at having another child in this case to that one. I was happy with what I'd achieved and it was too important. For me, it wasn't about what ballet was coming up. It was. It wasn't about that it was I would love the opportunity to have a child, another child and obviously we'd lucky to and so that trumps everything and very fortunately, we're lucky to have him At a beautiful girls. And we're a family of five. I love that so when you when you did have Jasper, did you think that was the end? And you were happy with that? Or were you still thinking I can come back? You know, I've got the support of my mom, I can, I can do this. And I could, I was very lucky that I'd seen women in the company go before me. And quite a lot of them honestly, because David McAllister, the director at the time, really pioneered the maternity leave and process of the Australian ballet, which is, again a front runner of worldwide standards, I could see that it was possible. I was encouraged by that. Again, they were the ballerinas as the company, I was a soloist at the time, so I wasn't on the same level as them. But also like an by level, I also mean, as a principal dancer, as principal artists, you are mostly not dancing every night and and show because you have your two or three Shows a week. This is not every week, but let's just change your Time Season. They're on all the time. But generally speaking, they have their specific shows, and you know, perhaps a bit more saying what they're doing and their timings. When you're Junior in the company, you don't you're in the biggest scene. So you're there rehearsing in the bigger scenes every day that need more time, you're not just rehearsing you and your partner, or can we do that at one today, because I've got to go or you're kind of at the mercy of the group. And then you're at the mercy of all the shows. So it's not about I'll be in the theater, like three nights a week, it's like, I'll be there six nights a week, like every week. So I had worked to a point where I'd got I was really happy with what I achieved. And again, at that point, I had a very clear mind that having a child was the most important thing. And if that was it, I was very open ended, you know if something if he was, you know, sick as a baby, or if I didn't feel like it felt right for me anymore. I would have stopped dancing. I just left it quite open. So a few months after he was born, I started doing some Pilates. And I thought now I've still got it in me and even though we don't have family in Melbourne, I was mum was able to talk with me. So I gave it a go. And then after when I knew I was pregnant with the girls I I then knew like at that first scan appointment, when I saw there was two, and I gasped he started crying. No. I'll never forget that moment. It was just it was such a indescribable, like, so many feelings. Not instantly, but I thought you know what, I think this is life telling me that this is probably time, it's time to enjoy the bit you've got left. And I was just hoping to get to that particular season that I was talking about previously to get to do that ballet died 1929. Yep. Because I thought that was a beautiful full circle. I was really sick and tired. Like really sick with the girls being pregnant with them. So I didn't know if I'd actually be able to make it to that point. But I just tried. Just gave myself each day at a time and I was able to get through those shows before COVID shut us down anyway. So I was able to do those shows. And then and thought they were my last. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask you, you've mentioned feeling sick with the girls. What's it like? Being like dancing when you are pregnant? Like do the does the company sort of make allowances? Do they? Do you have like special things that you're not allowed to do like that? How does it sort of work? Yeah, well, it is quite different for everyone. Obviously, you're not you know, you're not able to sit at your desk and hide away a bit and you know, discreetly go to the bathroom. If you're feeling a bit nauseous and I look it's a very vulnerable time for any woman and I it doesn't matter how many times you've been pregnant what the circumstances are. I think every woman feels very vulnerable until you feel like the pregnancy is safely on its way so I think you That's really tricky to balance with the fact that it's a very public public profession, you're in a leotard. People can look at you and you're not feeling great. You sense that other people can tell that they're still many, many weeks to go before you're in the clear, or you feel comfortable to tell your boss or other dancers. So it's actually a really yucky time. Irrespective if you're tired or sick. It's a very it feels really confronting and both pregnancies I felt really. Yeah, not. I don't enjoy that, you know, it's my first pregnancy with Jasper, I sprained my ankle ankle at seven weeks. And I think that was just a blessing, because I wasn't about maybe nine weeks, and I wasn't coping with just, like, feeling like it was so obvious, but you've got a long time to go, you've got to pretend you're still able to do everything, obviously, at any point you can, you can speak to staff, and they'll absolutely, you know, just keep like, keep that in mind. And, yeah, obviously, that that level of duty of care is absolutely there. But you know, as as a woman, you don't feel comfortable. Just you know, saying I'm eight weeks pregnant, you know, there's still four or five weeks to go before I really feel okay about this. But yes, it can affect the repertoire you're doing and obviously different partner and different lifts and things. Some some girls tell the partner they're dancing with, and some don't, because they don't want their partner to freak out. They're going to do something wrong, and you're guided by your health, your health care professionals, and I had a lovely obstetrician for the girls who said to me when Okay, let's talk about twins. And I just said, I surely can't do anything that I meant to be doing. And he said, No, no, you're and obviously, this is not medical advice. This is just what he said to me in my circumstance. He said, No, no, just you just do what you're doing. That's your life. Normally, just keep doing that. I want you to do that. He gave me some options for the sickness. But other than that, and he was just said, you keep doing that. And I told David at the time, when I was 10 weeks pregnant, I was so close to getting to the shows, but I just had to say no. And he was so excited. I love it. So excited. Yeah, certainly I'm sure in many years, not that long ago gone by it was not at all a comfortable conversation to have. Yeah, I that's something in itself. I always felt like this was exciting news to share. It wasn't like, oh, well, that's, that's going to be a shame. Or why did you choose now like you're just doing so well, there's none of that, in my experience. And so there shouldn't be but I'm sure in the years gone by it was seen as a, you're not as dedicated because you've chosen to do this. Yeah, absolutely. And there probably wouldn't be the option to come back, because people would judge you on that and go, Well, they've chosen that so that you don't come back? No, I think traditionally, absolutely. And David was very clear about making that cultural, you know, a huge, a huge change in that, that it was only supportive, and you don't want to be losing all your top women, just because they they realize they don't want to miss out on something that has a finite time. Our career has a finite time. And so does you know, the years where you are able to have your children and care for them and deal with, you know, their early years. That's what's so tricky. Our job is so demanding to what we often feel as ballet moms feel at odds with is that you know, those early child hood years are so intense also. And you don't want to miss lots of it. And you want to be forming that bond and that connection, but also your career there. They are your best years. And they're kind of endears. So it's like a really tricky. And you just find your way and they do complement each other. But yeah, it's a big, I think it is a big decision to kind of be confident enough. If you do want to continue to ask him to put a pause button and say this is really important that I have a family as well. And then I'm going to come back and I'm still going to be able to do what I can do. Yeah, absolutely. When you found out you're having tweens and you mentioned those emotions. Did you think how's my body going to? I mean, I suppose at that point you weren't thinking Coming back, necessarily. But did you think how's my body going to go? Then? After all the changes? It's going to go through having to at one time, will I will I be able to dance the same way? Or, you know, how will my body come back from that with its, you know, flexibility? All that that kind of stuff. Did you did that sort of? Was that something was you thinking? I guess, because I wasn't thinking about coming back. And, again, I'll just like the timing of it. Literally COVID had just hit Australia. A few days before that. Last season I did opened and we only were able to perform three shows a Friday into Saturday. And then everything was close. That was when everything shut down. Yeah. Sorry about it only recently performed in Melbourne this last week, since then, sorry. Which everyone thinks is actually some kind of miracle. Right? Do they days, you know, give this to them, care for them? And then come back. And, you know, oh, it's the opening of Anna Karenina that was meant to open two years ago. And yeah. But I guess yeah, my mindset wasn't on, on anything regards to ballet. Yeah, when I was, I wasn't absolutely dead set against coming back. But I just in my mind, I was leaning towards that. And I've never actually, you know, really thought too hard about that kind of physical change. In terms of my career, with, you know, with pregnancy, I did, you know, I was pretty concerned about having a twin pregnancy genuinely, it's, it is a high risk. And, you know, we had our own complications along the way. And so nothing's taken for granted. And I think that perspectives enough to be like, you know, if you, if you can't get your leg up pie anymore, it's really, it's really not important. So I was just amazed my body could handle the twin pregnancy generally. Because I'm not, there's not a lot of room. Amazingly, they make room but pretty, pretty uncomfortable at the end. And, but it's also like I, a lot of people think somehow being a valid answer must help you in birth or something. And perhaps it does, but I think more than anything, it's just that you've been so strong your whole life, that on the flip side, your recoveries probably a bit. A bit easier, even from a twin pregnancy, then yeah, maybe someone who hasn't been as active and just so aware of, you know, muscles and how things feel. And yeah, I mean, I think a lot of valid answers. So if they do go back, they try to go back really quickly to dancing and they miss it. Like, I think physically, they miss it, and they miss feeling like that. And they have, you know, a really clear vision and for whatever other reasons, which are their own, they want to dance so quickly again. I mean, I didn't have that. That's just not part of me, but also after the twins. I mean, I wasn't sleeping until they were like 10 months old, proper properly. So I don't know where in that I was meant to be. In that to be thinking about doing ballet. i If there was ever a 10 minutes, I would try to lie on the couch. You know, I wasn't like oh, just do some exercise. It wasn't really my headspace. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I want to bring up I've had my own experiences with postnatal depression. So I can relate to a lot of stories that my guests share. And you've been really vocal about your journey. And I want to commend you for that, because I think it's so important that we talk about it so that it becomes like a normalization of this is, this is something that happens to a lot of people. And it's not something to, you know, be scared of or hide away from, we're going to talk about it so everyone can sort of help each other and, and ways to get through it. If you're comfortable sharing we can you tell us a little bit about that experience. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, it's, you know, I I agree. It's, it's a topic that I believe should be spoken about more. You know, I can also understand you don't want to put that on to new months in that, oh, you know, it can be this hard and it can be so bad and you know, when they're going through such a transformative experience, and some people are not affected in that way. So you don't want to be Putting that experience onto everyone. But by the same token, there are so many women who are really battling with something that is out of their control. And it's meant to be the happiest time of your life. And it isn't, you feel quite unhappy, really. And on top of that, you're so sleep deprived, and so unable, what feels like so unable to cope, and then the guilt of not feeling like it's the happiest time of your life. There's so many levels of that, and the layers just kind of keep building each day. And it is, it's this, it's this kind of base and I can see, you know, externally now that why you feel like you can't say anything, and I felt that like that at the time, and I have such amazing support. And, you know, Locky is, is my greatest support in every way. And, you know, I had to sometimes some days, I had to feel, find the bravery somewhere in myself to actually say how it was. Because it felt like such a big thing to put on to someone else who's already supporting you, you know, and if that's your mom, or if that's anyone, but just to be like, it's actually really bad. You know, these are actually the thoughts I'm having. And I don't mean to be dramatic, because it's actually is that bad, you know, and mine. My postnatal depression, and anxiety kind of set in quite quickly. And, you know, I know everyone has a different experience. And yeah, I guess I'll just share mine. But yeah, twins is quite a shock. And I was so euphoric, I had this amazing, beautiful birth with them. And yeah, I had natural deliveries. And they were, you know, we, they were almost full term, and they were healthy. And after a really long pregnancy, worrying, like the relief for that. And I couldn't believe my body could do that. And I was like, This is great. And, you know, they were feeding well. And I was managing to feed them, somehow duck tanned and feed them, which is just somehow managed to do that. And you know, so you know, that first bit that first week or so, like, wow, I made two babies. And it's, um, yeah, I was, I actually did feel that pride and that, you know, we were ecstatic. And then, you know, the actual care of twins, and obviously, multiple births, you actually are just statistically at a higher risk of postnatal depression, because it's just hard. Yeah. And I was very lucky, I had people around me who said it like that, you know, and I had a really great obstetrician in Brisbane, where we had the girls eventually, I remember the six week appointment we had, I had it at four weeks, because we had to go back to Sydney at that time. So like, he could go back to work. And we had it a bit early. So it was even earlier than you know. And I walked in, and he was like, how he going and I said, like, death warmed up, and we'd had a terrible night, 20 minutes sleep the whole night. I was feeding them. At that point, trying to establish as is to better at once is one everyone says put them on a schedule schedule, put them on a schedule. And for someone who's had a schedule my whole life, like I, I would take to that like a duck to water but these babies still didn't know that. willing to do it. And I'm still feel like there's a part of me that, you know, was was perhaps keeping twins for a reason because I can stick I'm determined, I will make them do the same things at once. But not at that stage. They you know, and they're so you know, their tummies are so little and all of the, you know, you're up padding and tap, you know, do they need more and all of that, but times two. And so after even just four weeks of that, and no sleep. And I was feeding them so that's exhausting, obviously. And it really came on like a, you know, like a freight truck, even by that point. And then we moved back to Sydney. And I met a really wonderful, very just by chance. My maternal child health nurse there was incredible and a really important person in my journey because straightaway, even though she'd never met me, and I told her our, our story, and you know, my I hadn't seen my son Jasper, who was in Melbourne with his dad. And he'd been there 10 weeks and because the borders were closed with COVID Oh, yeah. And it's like, right, so you're here. You had the girls in Brisbane, because you had to fly up, go up, drive up there do hotel quarantine because of the risk. There was a risky birth situation anyway. So we had family support, so you had to leave your son in mail. When you're here in Sydney, you've been around a bit, you've just had twins, feeding them. And she's just like, this is, this is a lot. And she's like, No, you're not around your friends like, and you know, my work friends are my family. You're not around you use your usual people. You're at a really high risk here. And, and I was like, really? Ah, no, I'll be right. And she's, and she was like, no, no, we're, we're going to look at this. And I'm going to tell you like in a really great pragmatic way with someone who's so sleep deprived, and emotionally drained, needs to sometimes hear it so bluntly. And she's like, it's, you know, twins, it's about twin management. And, you know, I was like, but I meant to be like, loving them and like caring, and like looking at their toenails. And I'm like, I don't even know what their toes look like. That feeling of like, how much your adoring them and like staring at them. And with twins, you feel like, in fact, I can see you're getting, you're trying to get to know two people at once. So you're getting double the input, like feedback, but you can't process so I felt like it took me so much longer to know which one liked what and which one needed and to feel equally as close and in connection with an in tune with both, because it was just like, kind of like not a production line. But it's just it's just all routine. Yeah, yeah, it was. And, and that was to our to get to a point that it was to our benefit, so that you weren't up all day and all night with one baby at a time. So it was all working towards that. But to make that happen is is like hard work like effort, like one's up, okay, get the other one out. Okay, feed, that one's going out, put the other one down. Like it's, it's not just go with the flow. And I thought being a second pregnancy second baby, I'd love to be that like go with the flow parent, which ultimately probably doesn't suit my personality. But to just be more relaxed and to know it all passes. And to know, you get through it. And but it was it was such a different experience. So how could I and I, I really needed so much support. And I'm just to this day, every day. So grateful I had access to support. I know it makes me so sad to know that there's women out there who just don't have that support, or someone saying you need, I'm going to funnel you into a system and you're going to go to that mother baby and or you're going to have this appointment, or we're going to squeeze you into a telehealth to talk to someone because right now, that's crucial. It's not just like, oh, you know, four weeks time we'll do. It's like, right now this needs to happen. And very, very fortunately, with twins, in those sorts of areas, you do sometimes get a little bit of a, you get a priority. It's like we know this, this is yes has to happen. Yeah, which I you know, I was really grateful for that so I had people checking on me, and I felt so incapable. And just, you know, yeah, just so out of my depth. And, you know, I was just like, I think back and it is an every time. It's like, it's like a dream, like, and not always a good one. But it's like and I with my son, he came up to see us and I'd you know hadn't seen him it's so long, which was just so hard in itself. And he was meeting his new sisters and he had so much energy and I had so little to give him and it's just you know, there was always a baby that needed something and you know, he's been so patient and had to adjust but it took me a long time, especially with how I was feeling and how low I was feeling. And so anxious. You know, even when I got to sleep, I couldn't sleep. I didn't know again until I'd spoken to my nurse and to the psychologists I eventually spoke to that I that that feeling of rage or like anger, but mostly that that rage that like volcanoes up inside you and you just need like a you know, the pressure valve just needs to release is is a real, real sign of anxiety you You just think I'm just a horrible person. And I'm just so mean to everyone. And I'm so angry, and it's not fair. And why am I so awful? And he's like, No, it's the pressure release of you're so anxious. And I think in my career, I'm so used to dealing with pressure. And even if you're anxious, you're able to deal with it. Either squash it, compartmentalize it, do something with it. I didn't have an outlet. I didn't have time. You know, anyone talks about moms having time for themselves. It's like, that was a joke. When was like, understandably, it's just not, it's also not a fact, when he had young twins, and leaving the house, and people would talk to me at the cafe, and I just, I wouldn't even know how to talk. Like, I just, I just looked down, please don't talk to me, please. Lovely, have more and just like so. And, and you feel and it's another point where you just let I just don't feel that. Like they're so beautiful, and I love them. But my experience is just like, I can't get through this. I'm I'm just floundering. And that mismatch between what what people expect or think, is another layer of like, RC like I should be. And if I could just like what I said earlier about, but if I could just work harder if I could just think differently. I'm sure I could turn this around. But really, I needed a lot of help and support. And in time sleep. Yeah. Yeah, I needed an iron infusion. I needed, you know, there was a whole plan that I was very lucky, multiple people, you know, and I had an incredibly supportive partner who sat there and looked me in the face. And you know, how old were you when I said awful things, you know, really was like, I don't like having to say this. But if I get this out, it has less power. And then we could kind of like, move through it. And so over time, and I noticed too, this is something that it feels like too much to be like, I need an hour to do my telehealth with my psychologist, you know, especially with a young family and Jasper was at school. And there was always a reason I could have just cancelled that I was lucky to get into a psychologist with the Gates Foundation in Sydney. And so that really worked, especially not having to go out of the house. If I had to go to an appointment, I probably wouldn't have prioritized it again. I was lucky in that COVID time that telehealth was a thing. And yet, when I dropped a few weeks, it wouldn't happen immediately. But it would start to come in again, I'd feel that that ends all day anxiety. And as soon as one of the girls would wake up before I wanted her to it was so frustrating. And why are you? Why are you not doing what I thought you're meant to be doing. And now I have to get the other one out and restart again. And it's school pick up tight and just it would my coping mechanisms would start to fall away again. And obviously, everything feels like it falls apart. So definitely talking to someone, you know, weekly became a priority. And if that meant I heard, you know, my mom with the girls, and they're both screaming as hard as that was, yeah. It, I had to at some in some way. Prioritize that hour. And then once the girls were able to be in a routine that was more consistent, they didn't sleep as well as my son ever did. And, you know, every time they went through a sleep regression, one of them would always hit it worse than the other. And, and you know, not that long ago, you know, one of my girls was up for like six hours a night for a couple of weeks. And you're just like, What do I do? How How is ones just sleeping? And but you what do you do with a baby for six hours says every Monday, every overwhelmed of all time. And of course you get through it. But I could get through that because I'm in such a better place. And I've had some sleep. And it seems so simplistic to say, Oh, you just need time and sleep. But really, fundamentally, they're two really important things that help you with young babies. Yeah, absolutely. Sleep is sleep is king. You just get anxious about it. And so I'm like set on how everyone's sleeping how the baby's sleep times to this case, which it was ultimately everything. How you're sleeping, how my son like anyone who'd make a noise that would potentially you know, a lot of symptoms of postnatal depression and anxiety I you think all you feel pretty, pretty sad and pretty low bit unmotivated. You're not enjoying it as much. A lot of the Symptoms like I couldn't handle light. I couldn't handle sound my son's footsteps running down the corridor. We're just like, Ah, it's just so loud in here one night, I was asking people to turn off the lights and the TV. And everyone was so lovely and, you know, receptive, but they looked at me like, oh my gosh, yeah, it's really not that bad. But the sensory overload for someone who was already at the end of it, like wit's end on every level, I think was just too much of a trigger. When I, I had my first son 14 years ago, and we, you know, you go to the prenatal classes, and this guy came in from Beyond Blue, I think, Oh, I can't remember where he was from, he might have just been from the hospital. So basically, he, he said to us, you're going to have times when you feel beat down, it's going to be hard. You're going to have, you're going to feel you're gonna get the baby blues. So good luck with that. And that was what, that's what they told us about, about postnatal depression. And it was like the intensity, oh my gosh, actually can be. And also, by this point, for anyone, when you're having a child, it's the responsibility you feel like, is overwhelming at times. Even though this is something you desperately wanted in that it doesn't change the fact that it's a huge responsibility that everything to do with this little person, or these two little people, it is about you and your decision. And every decision you make, you know, it's I think, trivialize it like that, compared to, obviously, you know, what it's like, it's couldn't, couldn't be, you know, more polar opposite to how intense it feels. It's absolutely not baby blues. And you know, that's what I say to anyone I know, who's having a baby or has had a baby, you know, like, I'm up in the night often anyway, so if you need to call anyone, please just know, you can always message me or call me or anything, because it's, it's not trivial. And there are some moments in time that you might actually just need someone. And as someone who, it doesn't matter what you've done in your life previously, as someone who by that point usually feels a bit capable are a bit like, you know, I can manage things to feel so incapable is, and so at a loss is such an unsettling, despondent feeling, let alone then feeling like that, and being responsible for someone else. Hmm. Yeah. I want to touch on when you said, when you spoke to your, the nurse that you said was really, really good. When she sort of told you all these things, these were massive things that were impacting, and, and you sort of said, I'll be right. Were you feeling like at that point? And you don't have to answer this if I'm trying too much. Did you feel like because I'm sort of trying to relate it to my experience? Did you feel like you had to pretend it wasn't happening? Or did you really genuinely feel like it was wasn't happening? I don't think I was aware how bad it was, even though I felt really bad. I knew it was I think it's like everyone has that pride. And I think I thought I could get through it. Or a bit like if I just do this in this a nice it'll, it'll go away or or it will get better. Yeah, I guess that was her point was just, you know, it's it doesn't have to be okay. You have so much going on, not to mention a pandemic. Yeah. Parents of the last two years, have not been able to access for their children for themselves for their families, the same levels of care, the lack of, you know, the lockdowns, the restrictions that the people popping over the all of those little things that at such a critical time, might be that one person you spoke to who you got to have a hug with, or might be, you know, all of that wasn't there. And I think I'm used to coping with quite a lot. I'll be the first to say I don't cope very well with change, or with anything going not to plan. Even though a whole lot of things in life in my life. You know, like, really there's been A lot of change and a whole lot of things that I've actually had to cope with. I think I cope externally very well. But internally, I, I battle how well I'm coping. And also I you know, you don't want to be a downer for everyone. I think that's another layer that no, we will women who are feeling, you know, like they are postnatally depressed, that you don't want to be a burden on other people. You want to live up to what you're meant to be living up to, you know, yeah, that is so true. You just not. And again, sometimes it has to be as plain as day is that. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new moms, dads, and she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk to you my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So I'm getting to know both of us, myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine, and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jasper and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last, and there at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top, and it filters down. If you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not, okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you, that's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted. So therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else would be doing this better than you. But she, she kind of was the right person for me to be saying, you know, they're going to cry sometimes, and you're not going to like it. But if that means you got to eat something that is okay. Because if you don't put any of your needs first with twins, you will never ever look after yourself. And that's going to trickle down. And that's no good for anyone. So I had to relearn I have to actually in my very sad, anxious, not really, you know, really fuzzy how fuzzy you feel. Yeah, you are in that, that place like other than the tiredness, but there's a fuzz that, you know, you can't even make a sentence. Even still, I had to with practice with time, we support and someone checking in and going over this, again, really learn about putting some of my needs first, to then be able to help other people. That's it's a massive, a massive thing. To, for someone to ask you to do that. And then more massive to actually put into practice. That's, it's huge, isn't it? Because that's not how we're not, we're not wired to think that way. We've we've just got to give given given given give. So we kind of do feel, perhaps all mothers always do. But I do you sense in this time when I talk to my mom and you know, women of that age, that the pressure younger parents now put on themselves to be everything for their children. every second and every moment is a teachable moment. And, you know, if you did it this way, they won't have tantrums because they'll have all the food and you know, because you will have practiced these strategies and all of this and you sat with your child and looked him in the eye and all of that, you know, someone's having a meltdown in Kohl's and you've got to get back to work in like half an hour. It's really hard to be that parent. And we have that vision in ourselves. Like I want to be this parent and myself. I wanted to be that parent and then I had new born twins and I thought I knew some some things about having a baby turns out with twins it's a totally different story. And I just did absolute like sleep deprivation doesn't you know and that's what I just you know, I can't even believe I got through and any twin parents is because it's such a. Anyway triplets. quarters don't even single babies are really tricky to and it's, it's separating that like having that difficult baby or that tricky baby does not relate to how well your mothering like, it is not the same thing it's so hard to. And again, you need other people drumming that into you, reminding you and I, you know, I'm lucky that I have, I have those people around me. So I've found my way through and to, you know, not just to an end that big story. Sorry, very long story positive, but I do feel like and not that I wish this on any other mother, ever. But I do feel like the enjoyment I get from my girls. And the joy I have with them now that I had been through that experience of being so down. It really is amplified because I see it. And I remember when I first started feeling better over time, and then you have your bad days again. And then you know it's incremental. But when I actually enjoyed them, I just like cried with happiness. I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm enjoying them. Oh my gosh, like, and I think the appreciation for that was so huge. And I you know, I know there's challenging times ahead, children, but I do, I do have a greater sense of that appreciation for that, you know, enjoyment. And the present illness after feeling so not present. So spacey, so unable to be in the moment because you don't even know where you are. And sometimes you just wished you are asleep. Most of the time. Do not thank you for sharing that. So candidly, I appreciate it. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that listening that are going to kind of take a lot from it. So thank you. Sorry, that that's the only you know, that's what not that I mean, but I do feel like that is the one one blessing of going through that experience is that you were able to help so many other people by sharing yours. And that is the only reason I have you know, I've shared about that in my own in my own space. And you know, I'm very lucky that I've had that support and I just like I said before, I just so hope that other women have that too. And if that means one day when they're having a really bad day and they happen to read something you know, which has happened to me before to you read something on a particularly bad day and might just help you see that evening witching hour, just somewhat a bit differently for that one day. If I can help one person one day by them reading something, then I'm I'm really glad. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom, if my mom Alison Newman. After you start to feel, well, you're enjoying these moments and things are feeling feeling improved for you. When did you get that spark that you thought? I'm gonna go in depth again? Well, I wasn't actually feeling much better when I first started thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah, so dancing again, in, in a kind of condensed fashion, which I'm not good at, as you can see it again, was part of me feeling well, again, and I couldn't have known that at the time. Like I said, I really didn't think I would dance again. And the most exercise I would get would be when I was in the girls room, and they might have just like settled and I didn't want to open the door and the light come in. So I'd lie on the floor. And do you know, my pelvic floor exercises, that's that's the extent of where I was at. And that wasn't so I could get back on stage that was just to be a functional person again, and I have a really incredible Women's Health physio, which I also very much recommend to any any woman anywhere, no matter what you've done in your life. But you know, that was something that was just good for me. That was not, I'm just going to start with this because that'll be helpful when I'm dancing. There was no dancing thoughts. I would go over ballets when I was like rocking them to sleep in in their room, or like settling them like sometimes a random step would come out. But I was thinking about my retirement speech more than anything. And then COVID At the time I thought I probably won't even have anything and then I thought that's so sad like After 18 years like that, it just, you know, some people choose to have it that way. And I wouldn't have had a fanfare but I always thought when I retired, I'd have my family there. But yeah, I think about what I'd say. And they're the thoughts that would come and go in my, you know, spacey state that was my dance world. And so it was actually people around me mainly Locky. Because he's so supportive of me and my career. And it would be very easy to say, Oh, this is too hard. Donna, you know, Donna, you know, he tours, obviously, he's very busy with his job. And he loves his job. And, you know, he, you know, that's his dream job. And he is so good at it. It's, you know, we love watching him and but just, you know, the, the, we both have very demanding jobs in the eyes. Yeah, there was never a question of like, are from anyone that my mind was less significant in any way, or that it would be easier if I stopped dancing, because then that would work better for the family or just be easy, at some point, that probably will become part of the reason you know why we shift into a different way of how our family works. But just because I'd had two babies was not a reason for that to happen. So here's the first person who wanted to see me dance again, if that was something I wanted to do. So he he was very supportive over time in his beautiful way, not in your face just a little bit every day. Go in and have the conversation, you've got a contract still, your position is there. It's not trying to get a new job. It's your job. It's your position, have a chat, but not like what how could I talk? This is ridiculous. Don't even think about that. Go in and have a chat with David David Hallberg, our new director. So this was a new director for me, so I'm gonna who doesn't know me. And that was quite daunting in itself. So eventually, by about seven months, the company was in Melbourne at the time, they just had a Sydney season that somehow managed to squeeze in with COVID. And I arranged an appointment and decided to go in and you know, I could have not gone that day, I felt terrible, you know, I was going to miss a feed from the girls. And, you know, they'd never been left do that anyone else? Really? My mom was there lucky. I don't know if lucky was there that day. But yeah, it just all felt too hard. Of course, it's too hard. You know, there's so many other things. When you're in that, like baby space, that's too hard, leaving the house, one of them any variable for someone who is very much struggling with the day to day, a variable is too hard. Like go in and have a chat. So I put, like proper clothes on which I hadn't done and drove my car, which I also hadn't done in a while. And, you know, all of these things, and it felt like stepping out into the world again. And that was incredibly I remember, also being in this state I was, it was a sensory overload all of it, like the light, the sounds, just everything's coming into the carpark going in the left, I felt sick. Coming up, you know, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm home. And this is, you know, this is so lovely. I spent all my life here, it's, I was not in that stage. And also things had really moved on. That building felt different. I'm so glad I did, obviously. And David was very gracious in probably accepting me in that state. And, you know, I'm also a new person to him, and I just kind of flat out said, I've had a really, really rough time, and I didn't think I'd dance again. And he's like, you know, what would you like to talk about? And I said, I just I think I might want to try. You know, it wasn't a hugely confident telling yourself. I might want to try. It's like, what would that look like? I don't know. I've run out. I couldn't look him in the eye. And, you know, I just I was a shell of myself. And he just said, Well, how about you to start somewhere? I said, I don't know what, what I could come back to, you know, I was thinking like roles or seasons or and he's like, just don't even think about that. Just start somewhere, just babysit. And I was like, you know, you feel like you've got to offer something. I'll, I'll work I'll come back and I'll do that or I'll try for that series that just just don't yeah, don't think that far ahead. Just just in me Reality, if I'd actually thought about everything I have to do to get in this building every day, and to tour, I would not have gone in that day at all. So it was absolutely right on all fronts. So then I started coming in. And that was my therapy, I guess I'd come in and do Pilates kind of conditioning exercises that are quite specific what we do here. And, you know, I've done them for years. And I was very lucky that everyone knows me very well here. And in terms of, you know, the artistic health team, know me very well. I know how I function best and they weren't in my face. Some, you know, there's some mums amongst them. And they, they know, they knew instinctively what I needed. Sometimes that was just done. This is done a space, she's coming in today. And she's, you came in today, and I was like, and they're like you came in today. And then I start doing my little toe push up to the theater events. Yeah. And, you know, they could sense the days, I just needed space for myself. And that's essentially what it was. Because if I was home, I was always doing something I couldn't, we just coming back from Jessa, it was different, I could do a lot at home and he was asleep. The girls were still up and down all the time. There was always something to do food to cook a snack to get Jasper to, like, I had to go somewhere to have my that my time. And so that started like that incrementally. Then I joined our like daily training class. And that was, again, usually we work with Megan Connolly, who's our rehab coach, you normally go in with her and you know, do a couple of weeks, just one on one. And she's like, so you're gonna go into class today. And I said, Oh, but like, what are we going to do? And she's like, on in and I just go in there. I was like, no, that's just like, this is a studio with people, other people. And like a teacher and a penis. And I was like, I just, I can't, I can't like so many people in the eye, it really, you know, was a full body experience trying to get myself back into the world. And I did that by coming back into ballet, into something I knew. And that even like, all at that point. And even to vary up to when I did my first shows, I had to think if I don't get to do shows, if I don't get if I stop before I get to the like the goal or the cherry on top that I've this has been a successful worthy process, because this is what needed to happen for me. So it's more about the process rather than the end goal. It was about all those steps, and how that was like your therapy. It was actually it was and my maternal child health nurse had commented on that so much earlier. So how are we going to get you back to work? Like, that's just can't too hard. It's just we're gonna have to think about if you want, but we'll have to think about that. And I was not in that headspace. Whereas someone like her externally so much experience, I think could see pinpoint. This, this woman is going to need even for a short window of time to find a part of herself that has been so not thought about. And so I started in class for a little bit. Some days, I'd have to leave because I was overwhelmed by it wasn't even the ballet, the actual dance and everyone's like, Oh, it looks like you've never left and I'm standing there like a shell of myself and can't even express how different I felt. Physically. I was going through the motions. So and that's what I think is is tricky externally, after 18 month sort of dancing. Twins. i And I don't mean to say this, in a sense, it's precocious, but I was actually just going through the motions giving the actual dancing side of things such little thought because it was actually so much more a mental battle for me to stay in the room. People are there. They're going to look at you sometimes their eyes. Okay, you did it like, yeah, yeah, it was it just Yeah, it's like your body just almost had its own experience there. It knew the muscles knew what to do. It just did its own thing. And you could let it do that. In the meanwhile, the you know, inside your head. All this is happening. And yeah, and it's hard. People don't say that. Like literally, like you said, they said, it's like you never left. So they're only seeing this outside and they're not, you know, seeing the whole picture. So yeah, it's the realizations that come to me when I'm dancing. That's always been the case. But especially in that time and even still, the distance I have from being at home when I'm At the ballet, and when I'm dancing, things come to me and I solve problems in my head. And yeah, you know, I have these epiphany moments all the time about my kids and about mothering. When I'm at the bar. It comes to me then. Ah, so it is there's something about that. And maybe just because I've grown up doing it, and there's live music the first day, when someone started, we have, you know, a live pianist. So they start playing plays, and they improvise every day, all these exercises, and I just, like, my mouth was open, I was just like, oh my gosh, that's right. So I'm gonna just plays music for your day. Someone amazing, just plays music, music all day for you. was a really profound one. But I think I could unravel a lot of what had happened over the last 18 months, by being in that space. Yeah, wouldn't have to do at home for sure. Or even, you know, gone for a run or something it might have might have worked that there was something about, like you said, my body being a little bit on autopilot, that my mental chat could start to unravel a little bit. Okay, the space, it's, it's almost like, like a meditation in some ways that, like, I mean, I know, traditional meditation, you lay down, and then your body's at rest, so your mind can work. But sort of, in that way, like, your body's just doing its thing. You don't have to think about it. And then yeah, all this stuff, you're open to process, like it's a problem solve. And I feel very, I had such like a vehicle actually, that was way too daunting at the start, but actually became, you know, the art form that I've loved forever, actually, was the way into, you know, the new version of me that was all put together. Every kind of come before. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. It's like it truly is a part of your identity. And it just needed it was like that. Yeah, like I keep coming back to this word therapy was and that nurse was was experienced enough to see that, that that was going to be part of your healing was to get that part of your life back again. Yeah. And that's how long you know, who knows, and it's not about that. And I was lucky enough to be able to, after Melbourne, got out of the last longtown last year, we had a gala celebration season in December, it was a 10 day runner shows at the Art Center. And I was lucky enough to be ready at that point. I I'd only just come back full time. And so that was a personal choice, too. I extended my maternity leave beyond the 12 months, because I wasn't ready yet to leave the girls. I wasn't ready to have my schedule dictated to. I still needed to have because everything just took longer. And with twins, it just does. I think for everyone to find their feet for the tweens to settle into life like everything. Yeah, yeah, but certainly I wasn't ready to be after that long fighting to be there and enjoying them to then just evacuate and be at work you know, for 1012 hour days. So I took a really slow slow ride in and that meant I was working Training Training obviously you can't just turn off on day one. So from you know, from when they was eight months maybe not wasn't actually was like 10 months old. That's when I started some physical stuff and then I did all of that on my own time on my own schedule and then the week before shows opened as I'd planned but they everyone knew but I was like that's when I finish things that you've got a week and then a week of shows and I'm going on holiday Yeah, so again like compartmentalizing things like right from the start how lucky was saying just go into a chat and then you had you had David just saying well just try the sword you know it was it's breaking that down because the overwhelm if you think about everything is just too much it's just it's not it's not good yeah. The topic of mum guilt in and I guess everyone has different views. Use of what that is some people think it's a load of rubbish, which is great. Other people have like really relate to it, which is fine. Everyone's different. Have you ever had any experience with that? Or your thoughts about that are definitely have experience with mom guilt. That's something I feel all mums do face. And I will I'm certainly I certainly do. And a lot of the ballet mums here, that's a big one for us. Obviously, feeling guilty all the time serves no one. So I'm aware of that, too, that it's, it's a, it's a sensitive feeling that isn't really helping anyone. But what we do here at the ballet feels very self centered and self absorbed. It's such a giving up form, but our experience of how hard it is and the work we need to put in and the conditioning and the focus. And the I've got to get to the theater at this time. Because I've got to get my hair, I've got to do my makeup, I've got to think about my steps. And all of that changes after you become a man, you minimize everything and into the small amount of time as you can. But there's still the sense that I'm doing something for myself here. Like I'm, I'm focusing on myself, and I want that role. And I want to do that on stage and every one. I want to feel that. And you can't help but think I've got these little people who are like, Hey, Mom, I want you to but yeah, you know, so I very much relate to that. Whilst also understanding it's not really helpful. But there was something that I come back to, and what has often come from people reminding me and then I try to repeat it for myself is that your children, seeing you as a whole person is really important. And your children, especially with what we do seeing, seeing, you're so dedicated and so passionate, and loving something so much. What brought to you is really, really important to especially as a mother. And I think the uniqueness of what we do and touring half the year, the you know, the changeability, that pulling kids out of school or daycare and taking them to Sydney for two months, can feel like a bit of a liability and a bit of a, you know, kind of mixing their life up so much. And you know, with my son, I felt really guilty, he hasn't been able to do regular swimming lessons. And he hasn't been able to do soccer. And you know, I can't always be the one at the school gate. And even though when I was at home with the little girls with my twins, and he started school, when I stood at the school gate, I felt so out of place, I felt, I just felt so out of place. I just, I just I just yeah, it was actually a really uncomfortable feeling. And he didn't actually really care if I was if it was me there or not. Some days he does, and he is but he's also had such a colorful, interesting childhood already. I tried to flip that round, to say actually, he's had exposure to things that other kids haven't had. Yes, they've had playdates regular playdates, they go to soccer every Saturday, and the routine of that, and, you know, maybe the social constancy of that, you know, he hasn't had, but he's also had exposure to so many other things. So in context of my work and knowing it's not forever, knowing at some point, and probably, you know, by the time the girls are at school, I will be at the school gate every day, makes this time even more precious. And, you know, I do hope that, you know, they can see that their mom, you know, in did look after themselves, so that I could look after them. I do hope at some point in their lives, they can, they can see how valuable that was. And I might Santi now at the ballet, and he just had the best home ever so football with with the dancers, and that's something that other kids don't get to do. That's it. Yeah, absolutely. It's about although I think it's um, it relies again, on, you know, routinely reminding yourself of the value that your your art and your work is giving to you, and then how that's trickling down into your family. I definitely have more energy and more, more empathy, more support, more, more valuable time, if I've just had a bit of time for myself. At the moment that time is being spent doing something that I love, which is dancing. And at some point in the future, I have to find something else that that time is for so that that can still trickle down. Yeah, absolutely. You have you have that thing that feels that pick up and then you can you can give to others. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's good. You said about that. Because yeah, one of the things I like to mention is that it's, it is important for children to say, what their mums and dads are doing. I didn't matter what didn't actually mean to ask this, I was about to say something different. But as you mentioned before the girls like see their dad on the telly like, that's just like, did they? Did they make the connection? Do they like this? Yeah, yeah. I mean, probably assisted by the fact that like, hey, look, this study the girls, this is something I think all kids love music and dancing and our all of our kids do, but especially the girls are so absorbed in music and dance. And I mean, maybe some of those genetic I found with Queens, one of the only ways especially when they're early, you know, when they're lying on their little playing mat. That was one thing to keep them both entertained at once, which wasn't holding both of them at once was to lay them on the floor. And I'd put Wiggles, you know, playlists on and dance around like a little crazy person, you know, crazy person and try and sing not as well as their dad. And they would kick their little legs and you know, smile and giggle and that, you know, they obviously had exposure really, really early on to that. And still those particular wiggles that I've obviously drummed into them are their favorites. I you know, I love that they, I love so much, you know, we at 410 Every day we put you know, ABC Kids on and that's when we will design that's our little 10 minutes of you know, TV. They start dancing around and you know, Emma twirls around and they're, they're twirling around and they're trying to actually trying to do a sign language. It's amazing what young babies are picking up because there's me involved like, yeah, it's how they are learning because their music and dance involved. It's so innate. Yeah, I think it's really lovely. Obviously, Daddy's out there too. And that's pretty special. And yeah. We're taking them to the wiggles concert next week. And by we, I mean me. And I can't wait. Because even when they were five months old, I think, you know, I was on the sides with the girls. And my mom and Lulu especially was transfixed, and you know, five months old for 45 minutes. Oh, yeah, totally transfixed. And I think the power of music and dance is so, so beautiful. And I'm so glad they're growing up. So, so all amongst it. Yeah, it is beautiful, isn't it, it's like, like you're saying before, it might not be the, you know, going to soccer every week or the, you know, whatever it might be. But it's you're giving the children such an incredible life, just this exposure to things that other children might not get. And it's just, it's so awesome. It is. And it's challenging, obviously, and logistically, it's a jigsaw puzzle, turn it upside down and back to front and try put it back together again, every day is like that we have so many moving parts of our lives function. were two of us trying to tune out as well. It's just pretty, pretty full on and we're desperate school and trying to keep that consistent. And but it but it is it's it's it's good. I think I always try to remember to this is such a short amount of time. Yet ultimately, it's the best time for it to be like this. Yeah. Jess was starting us kit this year. And he'll he'll he'll do that, you know, he'll do that in years to come. He'll have enough soccer on Saturdays and he will get to your swimming lessons. But this is a unique time where I'm able to still do this. I can't do this again in 10 years time, being the level I'm at and want to be in 10 years time. So I might say you can but I'm, you know, I'm more than every day. I'm aware of that. You know, I do I have the best job in the world. And I get to go on stage and be different people and have world class orchestras playing music for me and do something I felt mostly quite natural doing my whole life. You know, it's it's hard to say no to that. And yes, hopefully my children can benefit from that too. Yeah, absolutely. I've got a wrench and the there was a beautiful article. Sydney Morning Herald where they took all these amazing photos of your family dressed up, and there's this one photo. I think it's Lulu. Like you've got this beautiful dress on and you're holding it and she's like, whatever like her facial expression. It's like, Oh, come on. I just every time I look at that, I just think she's in this world she gets, she knows what's going on. And she's like, Yeah, I'm in front of the camera again. With that particular photo, I know you're talking about it was one of her actually smiling. Yeah, they didn't using it. So when I saw that particular shot, when she's looking at, yeah, like, whatever. I thought it's a bit of a shame. But for whatever reason, maybe my leg looked better. Or, you know, the dress looks, you know, had a bit more flow or something. But I yeah, I did think that oh, interestingly enough, she's the one who loves her dress, and you put it on and she doesn't actually turned around. I just find those things. So interesting. Yeah. I don't know what Mommy does. Really. They don't. They haven't been able to come in most of my friends here at work. haven't even met the girls because of COVID. And, yeah, we're still very careful here, obviously. So those sorts of things aren't allowed. But yeah, they actually only know dancing through what they know themselves and through Wiggles. Um, but it's I love watching them just like, you know, dance along. Yeah, yeah. No, I just love I had to mention that. It's really funny. She's, she's really theatrical one. Currently in our Melbourne season of Anna Karenina, which was meant to be in the 2020 season, but has been postponed several years. So it's so lovely to have been able to get the this ballet on here. It actually made it to Adelaide last year and a little sneaky little week. It's a big, bold, intense drama. So beautiful, amazing costumes, scenery, a real modern day story of such a classic novel, obviously. So we're performing out here now. And we move that to Sydney, in April. Yeah, for three weeks. And we open also in Sydney in May a massive production called Kunstkammer, which is a whole huge evening of work. It's an amazing show from Netherlands dance theater and dt, which is the premier absolute, contemporary dance creative Maverick company from the last 60 something years. So this concept of Karma is a collection of incredible, four different choreographers who came together to create this incredible work, and there's so much in it. So it's a big undertaking for the company, but an absolute gift for us. No one else in the world has performed this ballet. So to have this in Australia is like having, you know, the rarest gem. So we're currently working on that at the moment, which is really exciting. You know, the some of the choreographers, I never thought I would ever be in the same room as them. Last year when we started workshopping and are just learning the early bits and I thought this is already enough like day one I've seen in the room with Paul Lightfoot. I never thought that would happen. This is unbelievable. So that's so exciting. We're doing that in Sydney in May. We bring that to Melbourne in June. So Melbourne gets to see that too. And then we open a ballet called Harlequinade here, which is a great commedia dell'arte, ballet, slapstick kind of comedy, but really clever, lots of dancing. Really funny, a real family sort of fun piece, which I'm really excited about. It's the sort of dancing that I get really excited by it's virtuoso, kind of pumping and turning and lots of fast movement but also lots of comedic timing and storytelling, which you know, I think is challenging but so, so rewarding. And then we have to finish off the first half the year we have our Adelaide season actually of counterpoint which is double bill, a double bill of Raymonda and which is a classical to to act. And then I got, I got artifacts, we really emphasize artifact suite, which is kind of like, again, a ballet that you know, the Eastern invite to have in their repertoire is a real coup. Yeah, that pushes dancers to like next level. So a whole lot of work. So, so you are performing something but then learning something else at the same time. Like you're doing different man that must does that screw with your head a bit, though, that you're like, which character am I today? That if you're doing the same dance, but several roles in the same dance that is quite tricky for the brain. Yeah, but I find the role is in the music. So whatever musics on it just getting to Yeah, we only did we did two versions of Swan Lake back to back. And that was a bit like, Oh, which one are we in? This one was modern was restoration, or, Oh, it's kind of similar, but not quite hit it in a music. But again, that's a skill that you kind of have to pick up along the way. And that's the challenge as well. But yeah, it's that's the sort of thing that I think people don't realize they do. Yeah, I never realized that till you just said that then, because I think musically, we're certainly my experience, you've got a show coming up. So you work on all this stuff for that show, then that show finishes, then you start for your next thing. But your world is just constantly constantly going, revolving door. And the different dance styles really challenge your body in different ways. And it's often when you start a new dance style, like as in a new piece of repertoire, it often you get quite sore or a bit, you know, using different muscles to do what you have been doing, and it feels a bit not quite the same as last night, and you're all caught up to my coin. How do I do that today? It is a constant challenge in that respect. But also it's the richness of the work we get to perform in the company here is that it's so diverse. And we actually are all very versatile dancers and very capable of that. So yeah, yeah, there was always lots to look forward to. And that's why you know, if you're not in a season this season heavily, you're there's something coming up always to think about. So we're very lucky. It's like a feast for us here. Everyone's very jealous overseas, how many shows we do? Talking about the kids like the dancing, I've worked in childcare, that's my day job. And I've certainly had a lot of wiggles over the years. But like it, they will that's what they want to hear the kids like, oh, we have this computer that we set up the music and and we have different music for sleep time. And anytime anyone walks over there we go squiggles or we will lose or they'll just they'll just start doing actions and they just love it. And same, like you said about the sign language. Like it's just becoming more mainstream a part of culture. Because of that, that, you know, the AMA, and it's like, it's just wonderful. It's, there's so there's so much like education value in what they're doing. It's not like, you know, they're not just a bunch of people to stenciling and having a party. It's like, they're actually educating and it's our like, my eldest son, he grew up with the originals. And then it was lovely to meet everyone in a different way. And some new faces when I had Digby, he's, he's six. So yeah, the year is and it's just a wonderful thing that it's still going and they've got the new faces now and it's just it's a wonderful part of our culture, I think. Yeah, yeah. It's, um, it's a it's a pretty special experience to be able to, you know, share that with children. And I do think, like I said, Before, they children just learn so innately through through music and dance without even knowing they are. And I think that probably goes across the ages and that goes into, you know, children who are well about, you know, three, four or five years old who love all those sorts of songs and things and so much scope for for learning with music and dance and how that can help all kids and all sorts of education kind of settings. With a ballet you know, we have storytime ballet which is, you know, the ballet for kids and Jasper seen those shows and a lot of kids come to those shows and you know, that is also what sparks a lot of children's in imaginations and a lot of what becomes the future generation of ballet dancers here and overseas, because they started at that first storytime, ballet performance, you know, that their mom or their grandma or someone took them to when they were three, four or five, six? Yes, spark something of that experience that took them somewhere. And then that takes them on their life to, you know, what they might like to become? And I'm sure that's how it happened with me like I just How can you not get take with that whole experience? And I think, you know, with ballet and music you that's pretty special to have that spark at such a young age and to play a part in that little person. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's it. That's a beautiful note to end on. I think. Thank you so much, Donna, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thank you for giving me so much time and, and chatting. So candidly, I've really, really enjoyed it. I have to thank you for giving me the space to you know, just like I said, I hope I can always help. The only reason I'd ever share anything about what I'm doing in my life or at home is that I can help someone else. And it's really lovely that ballet dancers now have the choice to become mums. And that, you know, we're working through this space of working out how they kind of feed and inspire each other. So thank you for giving me the space. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum