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Jessica Mendes Canadian watercolourist and illustrator S2 Ep28 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I chat with Jessica Mendes, an illustrator and watercolour artist from Kitchener Canada, and a mum of 2 young children. ​ Jessica recently got serious about her art, creating a business 6 months ago as a result of wanting to have some fun and more positivity during the pandemic. She has found her niche painting portraits of homes, cards and creating keepsake art. ​ We chat about how being a parent has influenced the way she approaches her work, how her children motivate her, how turning her hobby into a business has legitimised it for her and how your confidence levels changes through your life. ​ Connect with Jessica's instagram https://www.instagram.com/kwgreetings/ ​ Website - https://kwgreetings.ca/ Connect with the podcast https://www.instagram.com/art_ of_ being_ a_ mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their hours. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the volunteer people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging eldest. Thanks so much for joining me today. On this episode, I chat with Jessica Mendez, an illustrator and watercolor artist from Kitchener in Canada and a mom of two young children. Jessica recently got serious about her art, creating a business six months ago, as a result of wanting to have some more fun and positivity during the pandemic. She has found her niche painting portraits of homes and creating keepsake. Today we chat about how being a parent has influenced the way she approaches her work. How her children motivate her how turning your hobby into a business has legitimized it for her and how your confidence levels change throughout your life. I hope you enjoy so you're in Canada that's pretty I am Yeah, I haven't spoken Canada yet. So this is really perfect. I don't have the lovely accent but all your other guests I love your I can give a town that you're in. What can you just tell me a bit about it? Because I'm really fascinated with like towns and weather and all that kind of. So I live in Kitchener, which is part of like Waterloo Region. So it's like Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge, they're all kind of connected as one big city even though they're three. So we're about an hour west of Toronto, so, okay, yep. Yeah. More of a landmark for people. So yeah, so what's the weather like there now? You got snow? Yeah, not too much. It's about today was like minus seven degrees. So not too bad. But that that's pretty cool. Yeah. We haven't had like a minus 30 yet so. Oh, is that that's what's gonna happen? No, in recent years, but it definitely can happen. Oh, wow. I can't even imagine that. Because where I live, our coldest day would be like 11 or 30. Like, we don't we don't get snow we we don't get minus if it reaches a level and people are like in T shirts, they're so happy. Love that. It's nice to have a balance of both like summer and winter though. So Oh, wow. Have you always lived? Yeah, my whole life. Yeah. Makes you I've always lived in my little town I've done some looking at your beautiful artwork on your website. It's beautiful. Can you tell our listeners what you create the style that that you make and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, so I mostly use watercolor in combination with ink and then some just straight ink illustrations. I'm fairly new. I just started doing this maybe six months ago. So that's just what I've been working with. Up until this point. I started a small business and a website. Initially I started you know, doing greeting cards. Something I figured that would be something sellable. And then after you know doing it for a bit browsing Instagram and that kind of thing. Hey, I started trying a few other ideas. And I'm mainly right now have been working on the house portraits. That was kind of my biggest, like requests leading up to Christmas. And that has been really fun. I enjoy doing those a lot. So that's what I've been leaning towards mostly now. But yeah, yeah, they fantastic. Is this so unique? Like they're just Yeah, such as a special, like, beautiful thing for people to have. So yeah. And I think it's now kind of my ideas are morphing into more like keepsake art. So, yeah, things that people will hang on to like, even like pet portraits and things like that are very popular. So yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's really neat. That's lovely. So you say you've only been doing this for six months? So how did you decide to start doing this? Are you self taught? Or have? How did you get into it? Yeah, so I was interested in art quite a bit in like when I was younger, in high school, and that kind of thing. And then when I decided to, you know, study in university, and like, pursue a career, outside of the arts, I just kind of didn't really continue with it at all, like, into adulthood. I always considered myself somewhere artistic, but I just kind of let it fall away. And I kind of went more towards the science direction. And then after having children, after my second was born, during my mat leave, which I'm still on now, I just needed something to do especially like during the pandemic is there's no socializing, like, I don't know how it is there. But here's still very much not normal. So yeah, yeah. So I just, I actually decided, more that I wanted to start a business before I decided that it would be art related. Yeah. So yeah, I just wanted like the business aspect to be more of a project for myself. And then it took me a while to decide that it would be art related. I just, I wanted it to be something enjoyable and not something that felt like work so. Funny, now thinking about it, I don't really consider myself creative. I just, I have a really good attention to detail. So to me, it's why the house the house portraits are really good for me, because it's just copying and being able to see things in and copy from a reference. So I think in the beginning, when I first started this, I kind of had a hard time deciding what my style would be and what I would focus on and when I started to do those, it just felt so easy to say, I don't really have to think about what I'm creating. It's like already on a picture and I just duplicate. So yeah, that's kind of but yeah, I was always interested in that type of thing. And I took classes relating to that stuff in school and then just wanted a different direction and didn't really like make the time for it. in young adulthood and early, apparently. I'm not artistic. I mean, I'm not I can't draw. I do. I can do watercolor because it's just so freeform. So I like that but I can't. So when I see things like yours like I just, I'm in awe of it because I can't do it. I'm like, Oh, I just love it. This is so cool. Trying to use water to erase multiple mistakes you mentioned your children there briefly. Tell us about your kids. So I have two children, a son who will be three in a couple of weeks and then a daughter who will be one in also a couple of weeks. Oh, yeah, they must keep you pretty busy. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So do they sort of join in with your beauty creativity doing? Do you let them loose with the, with the watercolors? Um, my son does enjoy painting actually. Just like children's paints so far and not watercolor, but he's pretty interested in it. And if he sees me bring out my stuff when he's heading to bed. He's he's pretty interested in what I'm doing. But yeah, for the most part, I work on things when they're sleeping. Obviously, they're just too much into everything to try to deal with it when they're I can imagine you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was the name. You say you do your when they're in bed. So you obviously have some support around you to be able to do that. Yeah, so I think as of this week, I we're kind of transitioning out of a nap, daytime nap for the oldest, so I'm going to lose that kind of hour I had there. And I'm also going back to my regular job in a couple of weeks as well. Here we have a year long maternity leave a year, 18 months. But um, so yeah, other than that, I kind of have like a 730 to 9:30pm window to get things done. So yeah, my husband is really good at locking down the bed time to like, give us our evening because that's kind of our time, the kids are old enough now that they, you know, sleep in their own rooms, you know, at seven, they're in there. And it's our time. So that's really helpful. That's good, isn't it? Yeah. And yeah, you can, if you've got any ideas during the day, you can say, right, I know that time is coming up. So I'll keep that. Keep that. So you must be pretty good at working, like efficiently then like, it's like, right? Go. Yeah, sometimes I try not to, like sacrifice my sleep because that's just not good for anyone around. So yeah, I tried to buckle down if especially during Christmas, when I had you know, house purchase that I had promised to people for gifts and things I tried not to take on too many because I didn't want to turn it into something stressful. So but yeah, it's it's definitely hard to you know, by the time you bring everything out, you know, sit down you only have an hour and it flies by so yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yep. When you use talks about going back to work what what is your day job, I suppose. What's your so if I'm a scientific writer, so I work for a research company so basically my role is writing up the final reports of the results of the research for the client. Yeah, yeah. Very specific and not related to art at all Yeah. Will they be interesting I suppose being interesting. Yeah, definitely. Not very creative. But then again, I guess it goes like the structure of like copying and like you said that attention to detail so it sort of ties in with how your brain works I suppose. is a strength in my position in my day job and I get that comment a lot so I guess it is very helpful that's cool. Two of the big topics I love talking about and I say I love not because it sounds bad when I say I love it because I love talking about mom guilt. That sounds bad. I'm not I don't like knowing about people being guilty. You know what I mean? I just I find it such a fascinating topic. I just find it so interesting. And sometimes I think I should have been a psychologist because I love knowing about why people think the way they do and so mum guilt you is I think I think from what I've discovered with talking to other mums in Australia, and then I've chatted to some in the US, it's something that is quite universal. Is that something that you've you've seen over there in Canada as well? I don't know if it's like a newer term, or I hadn't heard of it, obviously, until I was a parent. But yeah, that's definitely a daily occurrence. I feel like for me, just, I mean, I think the definition of it would just be like, feeling like you're not meeting the standards that you think you should be as a parent? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, obviously, it for the most part is silly. Because if you care that much about your children and how you're raising them, you're doing a fine job. So I, in terms of like, my artwork, and my personal projects, like I don't feel guilty, relating to that, especially because I, you know, focus on that stuff in the evening. Like, it's not taking time away from my kids. So. Yeah, so. But I think, for me, the biggest guilt I feel is, you know, after attending to their needs all day, I don't, I might not have the energy to be like, as fun as I want. Or, you know, so that's like, the main thing that I don't know, the main issue, I feel. Especially with them being so young, too. It's like you, you're giving so much of yourself to these people. And then it's like, what's left for me sort of thing. It's just, you know, cooking and changing their diapers and like them, like, have I smiled at them. And then you kind of have to, like, put in that extra energy to see, you know, yeah, I can understand. Identity is the other big topic that I love. Did you did you go through a bit of a shift when, when you did become a mum, did you see the way that you saw yourself? Changing quite dramatically or had it? I think it was a bit of a shock. How are consuming like parenthood is, like, no one can really describe it to you beforehand. So yeah, it's kind of that. I'm the type of person that when I decide I want to do something, I act on it immediately. So it's that feeling of like, although you're caring for children all day, at the end of the day, you feel like you've accomplished nothing. So it's kind of like, frustrating, it's like, what is the point of this almost, even though it's super important? Like, I don't know how to really explain that. But yeah, it's kind of like you're just floating along and your day is so boring in a way. And so monotonous. It's like the same thing. Yeah, same thing every day. So and yeah, that spontaneity of being able to do something when you whenever you wanted to, or you said, you, if you want to do something, you want to just go do it. That's all sort of taken away from you. When you have the children I suppose. A bit yeah, just to I mean, really, the art definitely I like when I get an idea to its I want to start on it, I want to, you know, improve on it right away and have to wait all day and I only have an hour and it's that is probably the most difficult part of this whole business thing and this extra work that I put on myself. Yeah, but But saying that do you feel like it's really important for you to have that that outlet for yourself? That sort of feel feels that that need for you to make make or do something for yourself? Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, prior to starting Well, I started this more like I said, when like our evenings became our own again, like when my daughter was around six months. And at that time, I was just kind of like, use the time that you need to like clean or do laundry and just boring things or if I wanted to like sit down I would just you know like scroll the news which is so negative during this time, so I just, I just wanted something that was fun and more positive. And it ended up being like a really good thing that I chose to do. And prior to this, I, I hadn't used social media for probably three or four years leading up to this. So and I wasn't a fan of it. And I that was an aspect of it that I didn't really look forward to. But there is like a really big art community on there that is really positive and supportive, which is that was like a cool thing to discover when I started that. So. Yeah, that's, it's the thing I find. I don't know about you. But I really like Instagram, as opposed to Facebook, like I love. I love looking at me versus Yeah, and I, and there's doesn't seem to be as I mean, I don't know how I might use it different to other people. But I just love looking at things like I'm really visual kind of person. And I don't, I don't really click on unless it's something I really want to read. I don't click on everyone's comments and read heaps of comments. I just I'll read the person that posted it. And then I'll sort of keep looking at pretty things. Whereas Facebook, it's just so I don't know, everyone just trashy. Yeah, that's the best. Yeah, just kind of has become. Yeah. And that was more the more used, like, platform when I left social media. And so now it's it's so interesting to see how much businesses rely on Instagram and stuff now, which I said, like when I started this, that, Oh, I wish I would have, you know, continued on with this when I was younger, it would have been, what would it have been now if I would have kept with it, you know, 10 years ago. But at that time, you know, social media wasn't really the thing it is now so I don't know if it would have been anyway, it's kind of hard to look at it. Yeah, it's hard to know, too, isn't it? Because I often think about that with my, with my singing because I put so much stuff off until I'm, you know, I'm in my 40s now, and I'm finally doing stuff with it. But then I think I wouldn't have had all the material that I have to write about now. Yeah. So I figured things do happen when they happen. Yeah, try not not even, I don't even think I would have had the confidence to like have a business when I was younger either. And when you're older, you especially when you become a parent, you don't have the energy to care about what people think of you and you just do whatever you want. I'm going to take that, and I'm going to make it quite out of that. Because that is definitely say that the new episode. I love that. In a nutshell, though, seriously, isn't it? Like you've got you put so much energy into the important stuff in your life and all this other rubbish? She's like, Yeah, whatever. Like, it's just, it's background noise, like you just don't get caught up in. I guess most of your work now is you focused on creating your, your work for clients, I suppose. But do you do your kids influence your work at all? Um, I wouldn't really say so much like the actual content. I mean, I have been thinking about since it's like keepsake art, things relating to like, you know, newborn births, or like birth announcements and that type of stuff, which you would have never considered before. Yeah, and only consider myself a kid person at all. But I will tell you just more, you know, now that I've started it, and turn this into a business and kind of have like those, oh, it'd be amazing. This could become a real job kind of thing. I think they like motivate me in that aspect. Because if that were to happen, I think it would result in a more like a better, like family work life balance for all of us. So I don't know, I think that would be really cool. If that was something I I mean, being your own boss and be. Yeah, pretty nice. I think just instead of you know, working the regular nine to five, I mean, it's not too bad now, like, we're still everyone here is pretty much working from home. So that helps. But prior to the pandemic, I also had an hour commute to work. Yeah, so that took away a lot of time and it was really stressful when my son went to daycare and I felt like I only saw him an hour a day and that Marine, you know, so it's it's much better now. You know, it's funny a lot of people I talk to, and like not saying that the pandemic is good in any way, but the silver lining of that is been fingered have been, you know, so close to their families, like physically there with their families, and giving, giving your time to sort of put in perspective, like what's really important in your life, too. I think just saying things in a different way. It's like, just because we've always done things a certain way doesn't mean that's how we have to do things going forward. So yeah, definitely, I think that will change permanently for a lot of people like for my job as well, which I'm really grateful for. Especially with the age, like our children, we've been home, we have not gone back to work in person since it started and like, they have changed so much in that time, like they would have been in daycare for the majority of it if we wouldn't, if we hadn't been home. So, yeah. Think the fact that I decided to turn my hobby into a business, like as a parent really helped me to, like justify the time I'm spending on it. And I don't know if that's good or bad, but it works for me. And so it's kind of like, I treated the same way I would, as a request from my normal job, you know, so it's like, okay, I, I can't do the dishes, I have something to do. You know. And I think that's kind of like, oh, and or, you know, I have to do this because it's, it's gonna make me a little bit of extra money. That kind of forces me to put time into it. Whereas if it was strictly a hobby, and you know, I was just throwing my artwork in the cupboard. I probably would just choose not to do it if there was so many other things to be done. So I think for me, that's just a positive thing about it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's like it gives you that that legitimacy, I suppose in your mind. It's like, this is important, too. This is this is a value and yeah, yeah. Yeah. As long as I just I don't my husband always asked me like, is this feeling like a chore at all? Is it still enjoyable as I as I guess if it becomes like, too much, then maybe I have to take a step back and look at how I'm doing things. But right now it's so okay. Yeah, good on you. Yeah, that's great. I love it. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Join Dez and Eva as to business besties. Building a global tribe having real world conversations about all things motherhood, in the mum bosses abroad Podcast, the podcast that empowers you as a boss to make confident and smart choices for you and your family. Whether you're staying at home, running your own business, pursuing a corporate career or working that side hustle, you are absolutely 100% A man boss. And if you're doing all this while living abroad, well you're simply fantabulous all the way un find the mum bosses abroad podcast, anywhere you get your podcasts

Rachel Gresswell New Zealand expat illustrator S1 Ep16 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I am joined by the delightful Rachel Gresswell. Rachel is a visual artist based in Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. After initially training in painting in New Zealand, Rachel transitioned to drawing, and drawing for animation - creating moving image works out of drawings, or a series of drawings. She was particularly taken by the tequnique developed by William Kentridge. ​ In this episode we deconstruct the concept of mum guilt and what it means to Rachel, how she uses her art practice to record the day to day moments of her children’s’ childhood how she find wonder and inspiration in the everyday mundane events of our lives and the shift that took place in her mindset in relation to how her art and her work and home life actually could co-exist, and even enhance each other. ​ **This episode contains discussion around post natal anxiety** ​ Rachels website and Instagram - http://www.rachelgresswell.com/ - https://www.instagram.com/rachelgresswell/ ​ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ ​ Music used with permission - Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in Early Childhood Education. Welcome to the podcast. Today I'm joined by the delight from Rachel Cresswell. Rachel is a visual artist from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mom of two. After initially training in painting in New Zealand, right to transition to drawing and drawing for animation, creating Moving Image works out of drawings or a series of drawings. She was particularly taken by the technique developed by William Kentridge. In this episode, we deconstruct the concept of mom guilt, and what it means to Rachel, how she uses her art practice to record the day to day moments of her children's childhood, how she finds the wonder and inspiration in the everyday mundane events of our lives. And the shift that took place in her mindset in relation to how her art and her work, and home life could actually coexist, and even enhance each other. This episode contains discussion around postnatal anxiety My guest today is Rachel Cresswell. Thank you so much for coming on. Rachel, it's lovely to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you, Alison. It's my pleasure. Fantastic. So for those who are not familiar with you and your work, could you give us a little bit of a rundown on what kind of art you create? What kind of mediums you work with that kind of thing? Yeah, sure. So I'm a visual artist, and I initially trained in painting. But really, over the last few years have worked mainly in drawing, and a lot of drawing for animation, as well. Yeah, so creating Moving Image works out of drawing those areas of drawings, and just starting to dabble back into painting now as well. So that's, I guess, an overview of my work. Yeah. How did you initially get into to drawing in the painting, I did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in my late teens and early 20s. And in New Zealand. I did that straight after. After high school, I had some really great teachers all through high school, and they sort of encouraged me to apply. And I was accepted. And yeah, I absolutely loved my undergrad years. Four years of just yeah, having a great time. And yeah, I've maintained a practice since that period. Which, yes, it's quite a long time ago now, I guess. But I've just this year started my MFA. So my Master of Fine Arts at the Victorian College of the Arts here in Melbourne. So it's been a long sort of hiatus between study, but just really thrilled to be back in that environment again, and yeah, hoping to see, you know, what comes out of it and what the next stage looks like, I guess. Yeah, sure. So as a kid growing up, we always sort of an arty person. You're always into touring and things like that. Yeah, definitely. Yep. I loved. Yeah. All of that stuff. I love sewing, as well. You know, working with textiles, any kind of craft thing. My mom is really creative. So she always still, you know, we'll always have loads of projects on the go. So was definitely, yeah, all around me. And certainly encouraged. And, yeah, definitely, from early, early primary school years through through high school. All sorts of all sorts of different projects, I guess. Yeah. Oh, that's really good. I, when you said about your animation, I was just completely taken by your animation I saw on your Instagram account. I was just, ah, I was just blown away. My son. He's, he likes to draw and create things. And I said, Alex, come and look at this. And he was like, Oh, wow, that is so cool. Yeah. Can you explain just a little bit about that, like, I could explain it but I'm, I don't speak the same language. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I'm, there are just so many possibilities with animation, moving image and and drawing and, you know, there's so many tools now that are also available. You know, with iPads and stop motion animation software, and, you know, Apple pencils and things like that. So the, I guess the possibilities are kind of endless, but my sort of technique is very old school. So that's literally, you know, drawing a frame, rubbing it out redrawing the next one and sort of photographing them all in between. And then they get laid out on a on a timeline and editing software. And you notice a shift between the small shifts between the drawings that create this sense of motion. And that's a technique. Really, that came to the fore, I guess, through William Kentridge, who is a South African artist. And he's made, you know, huge numbers of films, dealing with, you know, situations of apartheid in South Africa and all sorts of, I guess, geopolitical themes, and he's exhibited widely through, you know, in Australia a lot. So, I've been lucky enough to see a lot of his work in the flesh. So is that yeah. Are you into that style? Initially, when you discovered his work? Or how did you sort of get into salutely? Yeah, yeah. So I had a couple of lectures at whitecliff went when I was in work with college and Auckland, when I was doing my undergrad who, you know, shared his work and a lot. You know, we've talked a lot about it. And yeah, it really piqued my interest in I was just was captivated. really captivated by the magic of it. Yeah, yeah. I just love it. It's like, the the images are over. I think it's easy to steal five more recently on Instagram, a different technique, which has been super fun to discover. So that's, yeah, they're just using an Apple Pencil in procreate, which is just a little program that I got on the iPad. So they're fantastic. So they're just literally drawing over that that still image and that just seems that my boys playing? Yeah, I guess I'm gonna get the things that we've been up to and locked down. Yeah, just slower. And that's really funny. Actually, I've been finding that making those little animations are kind of almost like triggers for memory, I guess. So when I look back at those I can remember in quite in quite a lot of detail. Like being with the boys in that situation, whether it was you know, jumping in the puddle or playing in the backyard with a leather that type of thing. So, yeah, I have a terrible memory. But I find when I've invested the time to create, you know, these these drawings, which, yeah, they do actually take a bit of time work. But I find like, they really cement that event into my memory, which I'm super glad because you know what it's like with little kids like moments are so fleeting and anything that can help you to remember these day to day experiences as gold. Yeah, it really helps you to hold on to those. Those they seem like maybe, like you said, like, day to day experiences, but they are so special, because that's all those little experiences going to create, you know, their child. Yeah, it's an incredible way to record them growing up really. I mean, I'd be pretty psyched if I looked back and my mom was doing that sort of stuff for me. It's pretty special for before you had your children, like you just mentioned how the children are, they come out in your work. Can you talk about where your inspiration has sort of come from and I'm, I've always been really interested in the the idea of the every day so I guess the things that take up our day that necessarily special or memorable but that is They they take our time Our time has invested in doing these things every day. And I guess from after having kids, a lot of that does become very domestic just because you're in the house or around the house so much with them, and you're doing so much for them. So I guess it's me being interested in the everyday that's sort of channeled my attention that way. But I guess before having kids. Yeah, I was interested in things around work and around memory and kind of family and those sorts of things. It's almost hard to remember, in some ways, because I guess having kids is such an all consuming kind of thing. And it's such has such a profound effect on your life. Yes, it's almost hard to remember. Before that. What I would say at the moment is my MFA my, is a research program. So the theme of my research, or what I'm looking at investigating is more around representations of faith in contemporary visual arts practice and Australia at the moment, and I guess, looking at how that shifted in recent history, in line with Australia becoming a more secular nation. So I guess there's those two points that have influenced my work both before kids and now it's, it's, it's around questions of faith, and it's also around the idea of the everyday, and certainly how those things are connected, and how they influence and speak to each other. So that's words that you but yeah, quite well. Yeah, cuz your example, one of your work, so I was looking at it from above, it's at a desk, so the person might be moving the mouse or moving the pen. And it's like, it just makes you stop and think about, like you said, it's, you know, a lot of people might document like a birthday party or, you know, something a big event like, yeah, yeah. That you do, over and over and over and over again. You know, it just that when I saw that I just made me stop and think, oh, wow, like, that's an incredible thing to me, because you would have had to put so much focus into that to draw that many times. And, you know, I just found that yeah, incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a work. That was literally about work. And that was about, I guess, when you know, when you're growing up, and you think of being an artist or something like that, you think, yeah, you know, I'll be an artist, that'll be my job. But it's like, no, the reality is, I'm going to have to have a job, like a job job to support the arts practice. So I guess in that particular work that you're referring to, it's, yeah, it was me grappling with, I guess these two parts of my identity, or not even identity but the things that I do and I'm looking at one through, I think I said in the statement looking at one through the lens of the other, I've always seen them as two quite distinct camps, and in some ways, but this was an attempt to kind of reconcile that for myself, I guess. Yeah. So let's jump on in and chat about your children. So you've got a couple of boys. Yeah, two boys. They six, four. So currently at home with us with with lockdowns? Yeah. But now they're good. Most kids probably they're just big energy. People. Lots of lots of fun. Lots of nice, yeah, lots of everything. Before we had kids, I was working full time. And in some ways, I've found that more of a challenge to have an app practice With full time work in some ways, there's something about the energy that you expend, or that I found I needed to have in my job was just kind of greater than them what it is to be with kids all day. And in some ways, yes, kiss. Yeah. So so there's that I found it hard to come home after a day of work, I guess and, and sort of reset, and do a second shift with that, which I did do. But I found that I did find it really challenging. And then, when I was pregnant, I naively thought that, yeah, I'm gonna not work I'm gonna have all this time and it's gonna be amazing. And the baby's just gonna, you know, sleep quietly, and it's quite famous last was totally different, didn't happen. But in some ways, I you know, even with little babies still had tiny pockets of time through the day when Remi eldest son was born, I sent myself a little challenge of, of doing these contour drawings of his first 100 days of life. And they were just tiny, like little a five drawings and I've got this really clear memory of, you know, sitting beside the bassinet and he had quite a routine 25 minute sleep cycle that the first sleep cycle so I remember like at 20 minutes, I'd start rocking the bassinet trying to get them across that get to the next sleep cycle then I used to do these little contour drawings while I was doing that and then as they've gotten older I I only work three days a week now so yeah, I guess times just shift it around a bit but certainly on the days when I'm at home with the boys Oh, they definitely won't have more energy for that for that night shift on that yeah yeah, it's just everything's different at the moment because of COVID and lock downs. Yeah, like everything's just a giant kind of mess and we're making making the rest of it and trying to squeeze in things here and there but there's no real routine at the moment I guess I'll have them work there's a workers and yeah, every day's a school day I feel for you guys over there My goodness. Because your children in your art, do they like to look at themselves in your art? Like do they get excited to be part of Yeah, yeah, they do. They do. They love it. Actually. I love looking at it. And I've been surprised even some more abstract things they've been able to, you know, pick each other out. So yes, yeah. They're involved. I know that I do it. You know, we often paint together or not often we sometimes paint that's not a sort of a stressful activity. Yeah, you prepared for things like that? Don't you have to get ready to clean up and have not have to go everywhere? I work in childcare so I can understand what you're saying. Oh, goodness, childcare is amazing. I love my job. I get to like it's it's kind of a relief that the kids get to do all those types of activities at childcare because Oh, yeah. Okay, but you got to you got to get it out of childcare. And then you can get changed and it's fine. You can go home looking like you haven't touched any paint or text lately A couple of the big topics I like to chat to my guests about are mum guilt, and identity. I guess I can just ask him, What do you feel about the topic of mum guilt? It doesn't really resonate as a term so much with me. I guess. Yeah, I mean, of course, I would have worries about the kids or, you know, certain things that are going on on with them that you you worry about. I think after I had Remi, our first child I had, I had quite bad postnatal anxiety. Um, so I definitely would think that I had a lot of guilt then about certain things. And a lot of that was tied into breastfeeding issues. And I had all sorts of things that were misdiagnosed, and it kind of came to a head and I switched over to bottle feeding. So I definitely had guilt around those sorts of issues quite early on. And just the classic, you know, expectations on your stuff that, in hindsight, are unrealistic. And but, you know, it's very hard to see that for yourself. Yeah. But I guess now, I think my practice has always fitted in around the kids, probably, and especially until this year, when I started doing my masters. So I've never, I've never felt guilt in a sense that, you know, time that I've been investing in that has been taken away from them, because it's always been something that I've done at night. You know, occasionally, might have had a few hours in a day type of thing. Also, I think, when I think about the word guilt, it, it feels to me like it's something that you would feel after you've done something that you knew intentionally was wrong, or misguided, or bad or something like that. Whereas I think being a parent, you're always acting in their best interest you. You're trying to do your best even if, you know, maybe it's not, maybe it's, it's not quite right, but yeah, so I guess there's a term but it's not something that would sit, sit with me, I really am. I think if there was something that was bothering me, you know, be quite quick to talk to Simon and my, my husband about it and you know, thrash it out together type thing. Yeah. It does feel like a label. And it feels like it. It, it does a disservice to the very real and deep feelings that you would have towards your child. Like it feels like it kind of almost glosses over that depth of feeling that or concern that that you have for your child. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. Yep. It's so much more complex and detailed and unique. Individual then, you know, then being able to apply a label like that, I guess. Not all love that answer. Age dwellers Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben had it. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate, and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts. So then leading into identity and I you did mention it earlier, talking about your work and your art practice. When when you throw motherhood in the mix. Do you feel like that it's important for you to retain that the part of yourself that isn't the mother? Yeah, absolutely. So I guess like I was saying earlier I use I used to think about things being more siloed in these kind of camps, like I had my art practice and I went to work and those two things didn't really intersect, but over the last few years, and maybe it's an impact of having kids, I'm not sure. But when I think of all those different types of, perhaps of identity or other roles and embedded comments that that I would have, you know, as, as a mum, and as an artist, and as a spouse, daughter, everything, yeah, I see myself as being all those things equally. And fully, I don't see them as part of the jigsaw either that that would fit together. But, but that I'm all those things. And practically speaking, of course, they have different kind of biting, you know, different stages of life, or even through the course of the day, like those things fall into a natural kind of balance, but they're all part of an integrated life. And I've, I think I've finally gotten my head around that a bit more, and that they don't, they don't have to bite up against each other. It's just all they can sort of all everything all the time. Yeah, yep. And but they definitely feed into each other. So if I've, you know, had some space and time through the way to, to focus on my artwork and to be quiet in the studio, then absolutely, that reflects in the way that I am with, with my kids in the sense that I think it helps me to be more present. When I am with them. I'm not so much thinking about. But it allows me time and space, I guess, to really focus on them. So I think they shifted from thinking that they all these different things take away from each other, but they don't they all support each other and work together. Like I said, as part of an integrated life. So that's been a big shift for me, and, and being able to shift my thinking around there. And I think it's helped. Yeah, help me manage my expectations. I guess I've myself. Yeah, I think it just, it kind of satisfies that desire, I guess to for that part of your life that then enables you to concentrate on another aspect. And that's, that, that sounds very kind of cut and dried. But thanks, unconsciously, it's, it's all those things feeding into each other. And, and, yeah. It's a wonderful abs and no one's ever answered it in quite that way. I think that's a lovely thing. Yeah. That's really cool. Especially because, yeah, you've adjusted your thinking, and you've come to this realization, I think that's awesome. Yeah, helping me to be a bit more, a bit more settled, I think. Yeah, yeah. And not always, not always feeling like things are taking away from each other. I think that's a big thing. Things are not at the expense of each other. It's just a different balance of time and space in that moment. And then I guess you can feel quite comfortable with whatever you're doing at that time. Yeah, you like sort of keep saying it again. But you can actually be quite settled in that moment and not have your mind racing off. Elsewhere. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's gonna help a lot of people actually. Hearing you say, that's something a lot of people's do struggle with. Yeah, definitely. It's, and it's not saying time for that as something selfish or only fulfilling yourself, but it has a broader impact out into kids and family life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people talk about needing that something for themselves, so they can feel fulfilled. And then that helps them present. I hate saying the word best version of themselves, but the version that they want to present to their children or to their spouse or to their work. So they they need that to fill them up. So then they can go out in the world and how they want to be, I suppose. Yeah. 100% agree with it. And it manifests in all sorts of different things. You know, for some people, it's exercise or cooking or whatever it is that I guess is is good for the spirit. Yeah, that's Sitting here. Yeah, absolutely. We talk a lot in childcare about having a cup filled up, like with the children have that emotional cup filled up and it's so important as adults not to forget that we actually do need that. Yeah, absolutely. Have you got other mums that have had a similar experience juggling the art and, and mothering that you've sort of been added to? Yeah. Probably not in my immediate network or my immediate friends group, but certainly call it colleagues or other people that are at school that you come into contact with. But I think what I found most valuable is just the friends who are juggling some sort of balance between being a mother and also like, we were talking about continuing to invest in those things that they feel it feels fills them up. So, you know, for some it's work completely and it's it's about maintaining that balance between work life and home life. And you know, for others, it's, I guess, different sorts of hobbies, but I guess yeah, there's probably no one specifically. With Ah, that's, that's close to me. But I would also listen to a lot of podcasts and things like that not not even so much to do with being a parent and managing an app practice. But I, I guess there's this so much available you can be you can kind of always find something that that helps you in some aspect of your life. I really enjoyed that episode you had with Rachel power. Yeah, I read her book. Very early on, when after we had me a son, that that was a real game changer for me because I was really struggling with postnatal anxiety. And I just lost myself in that book. I just, I just loved it. You know, just, I think, just realizing, which seems so obvious now. But realizing that you know, so many people are in the same boat juggling, dealing with the same issues. And I think having your first child, it's such a shock. Well, I found it's such a shock to the system. Just completely turned my life upside down. And I know it's the same for everyone. But I think reading that book. It really helped me early on. I think, yeah, yeah, a lot of people have said that to me that it almost it gave them validation that what they're experiencing was actually okay, and normal. And you know, this Yeah. And I told him to Rachel was amazing. She's such a generous person. To lovely to talk to. Yeah, and that's thing I think, even like, we know, everyone has kids, like, we know lots of people have children, but when it's happening to you, you can feel so alone and so confused and lost and just takes you know, in that case, one thing to say actually, this is normal you get liberated, you know, because there's so much information like there's so much information and and to find something that really help is helpful and really resonates it's that's yeah, it's worth the trawling through all the other stuff that you find yourself googling it. Three o'clock in the morning when the baby won't sleep or feed, but certainly you're taking advice from some, you know, mother and Midwest, Texas. Some time What am I doing? Oh man So my main focus at the moment is my MFA. I'm doing that part time. So it's going to be a four year process, which is great at the moment, because, you know, so much time has been consumed with lockdown and homeschooling and just being on full time as a parent. But definitely in the background, I'm chipping away at, at work that I'm developing as part of my, my studies, and some working with my, I have two supervisors as well, who I meet with, you know, kind of every three to four weeks to look at things. So I'm working on a new series of drawings, which are taking that concept of animation, so of sort of things moving through time, and, and displaying that kind of, or working with that visually, but they're not drawings that are layered on top of each other, as they have been previously for making animation. So I guess, I'm exploring the possibilities of, of time, like the passing of time in in drawing without the final outcome being an animation, so they'll stay as a suite of drawings that will, I think, be like the final outcome, but still dealing with these with the ideas of, of times, passing and how to represent that visually, and aesthetic to deform. Yeah, so that's sort of where I am at the moment with, with, with my studies. And, and, as I said earlier, my research is, is looking at representations of face I'm working with identifying artists who work with those sorts of things in their work currently, and, and also looking at the sort of working back in into recent history and, and looking at how questions of faith have been articulated in, in art. Yeah, it's really interesting. So yeah, it's almost like you're being a bit of an art historian. Yeah. And drawing threads from that into my own practice as well. You know, things that you you read and, and think about, you know, have a way of weaving themselves into your own practice. Certainly, that's, that's been my experience anyway, so it's quite loose. I don't have, you know, an endpoint mind at all. It's just starting to flesh out some of these. These ideas, I guess. Yeah. But it's very slow. And a lot of it is just going on and in my head, because we don't have the bandwidth at the moment to, you know, be spending a lot of time in the studio. Yeah, yeah. When this damn COVID moves or moves on. You'll be back. Yeah. Yeah. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet

Kellie Nobes Australian professional stylist S2 Ep35 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Kellie Nobes, who is a professional stylist and mum of 2 from Mount Gambier , Australia. ​ Kellie knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. ​ Through her blog What Kel Wore , and support from her local community, Kellie began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. ​ Her big break came when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand Ashlee Lauren’ s New York Fashion Week Runway Show in 2017, dropping everything, including her job, to travel to New York for the event. ​ Since then Kellie has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow Medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. ​ Kellie's services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots, to the recent launch of her wedding & bridal styling & planning service. ​ We chat about self confidence, self care and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mum. ​ ***This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum*** ​ Connect with Kellie on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kellienobes/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ ​ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow ​ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kelly nopes. Kelly is a professional stylist and mum of two from Matt Gambia in South Australia. Kelly knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. Through her blog what care wore and support from her local community. Kelly began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. her big break came in 2017 when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand, Ashley Lauren, and their New York Fashion Week runway show, dropping everything including her job to travel to New York for the event. Since then, Kelly has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. Kelly Services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots to the recent launch of her new wedding and bridal styling and planning service. Today, we chat about self confidence, self care, and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mom. This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum Well, welcome to the podcast today. Kelly, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on today. Yeah, absolutely. You call yourself a professional stylist? Can you share with us what that sort of means and what that entails? Yeah, sure. So originally, when I started my business five years ago, it was specifically fashion styling. So my correct title is fashion stylist and image consultant. But over the progress of the last I guess Yeah, five years I've sort of branched out into lots of different creative avenues and now doing weddings and bridal stuff as well as business styling and social media stuff for businesses so basically kind of Yeah, anything creative or anything visual so I decided to retweet the name and say professional stylist because I felt like that was a bit more of a sort of umbrella that all the categories fell into rather than just Yes specific fashion styling. So yeah, it's been a bit of a crazy ride but now five years later here we are. So going right back to the beginning, have you always been really interested in clothes and you know, fashion and dressing up and that kind of thing? Yeah, so I guess anyone that has been following my business for a while now probably knows the ins and outs that I was always into clothes and dress ups I had a big Dress Up Box loved Yeah, anything fashion based. And it just kind of progressed from a really a really young age. I shared a photo on Instagram not long ago of me that my mom said to me, she was like who would have thought and it was just yeah, the writing was written on the wall. I was there in my dress ups with the these fake nails on and the the neck lace on and yeah, and that was me, I think when I was like, oh gosh, very young, maybe like three or four. So it started from kind of progressed to be something that I didn't really envision but in saying that too, I was never always the best dressed kid or anything like that. It just kind of stemmed from I guess a passion for creative elements and design and all that sort of thing. And yeah, so but it definitely stemmed from a young age and was always something that I was very, very interested in. Yeah, was there any particular sort of trigger for that? Like, were you surrounded by, you know, with your mom or, you know, other women in your life into that kind of thing? Or was it just coming out of a balloon? Yes, and no, I mean, um, you know, like mom always presented herself quite well and that sort of thing. But I someone asked me that. Yeah. Before it was like when was the kind of key moment that stood out in time and I don't think that there's necessarily one but I do have a really early memory of mum bringing in. It was a black painted box with bright colored flowers on it and it had all her old earrings and dress ups. And pretty much from then on that was that was the main main part of my childhood. So I'd say that it stemmed from that blackbox there wasn't necessarily I guess a key person or individual that kind of standard. It was just Yeah, I don't know, I just sort of started from that. And it just kind of grew and grew and grew. And as I got older, I found that I was getting more enjoyment out of it and started taking I guess a bit more of a an interest in a curious curiosity in the business side of things, too. So yeah, I'd say that was probably the key standout memory that I have was definitely that Black Dress Up Box. That's I guess what what started started the journey. Oh, that's cool did you go on to do some formal study in the in that area? Yeah. So originally, when I was in primary school, I wanted to be a fashion designer towards the end of primary school and early high school. And then total honesty, I realized how hard that was going to be and decided that that was not the avenue that I wanted to take. But I originally really enjoyed the retail side of it. So enjoyed the business and retail, learned a lot about that gained a little bit of experience in that. And when I left high school, I knew that uni was never really for me. But I decided to go and study an Advanced Diploma in Fashion and Retail Management in Adelaide. So still moved away started that study. And when I was there doing that there was also a stylist course. And so that really took my fiancee. And at the time I was working at Marian in a retail store. And they were doing shoots and different bits and pieces and stylists were kind of coming and going and that for me it was really quite fascinating that people get a job going and helping people shopping and photo shoots and all that sort of thing. And it just sounded amazing to me. So I kind of first got the idea there. But around that time I was moving home back to Gambia we had a bit of a rough time, we had some health issues with my mom and we we lost a friend and it was just kind of a Yeah, turbulent sort of period. And so they didn't actually offer that offline. So I kind of just gave up there for a little while came home, still worked in the fashion business side of things. And then a couple years later, I found a online course for Yeah, fashion styling and Image Consulting. So I did it offline through an institute in Sydney. And yeah, progressed from there. Yeah, great. How would you describe your own personal style? Really, I always get. I'm always really interested by this question, because I feel like no matter who asks me, and when asks me it changes. But someone asked me, yeah, probably over 12 months ago now. And to me, there was three words that came to mind and it was feminine, edgy and changing. And for me, I guess changing was the standout because for me, it depends on my mood depends on my personal life, it depends on I guess what I'm doing, who I'm with at the time, especially since becoming a mum, my style has changed completely again. Some of it was obviously depending on what was accessible for breastfeeding depending on, you know, what I was going to be doing with the kids that day depended on what my style was like. So I'd say it sort of changes sometimes it's bold and eclectic. And then other times it's quite plain and quite basic. And then there's other times where you'll see me down the street and people will wonder how I got into this job or how I do this job. Because if you can see me some of the time, even at home when I've answered the Dometic Gosh, some people must just be like, Whoa, and I think that's yeah, a big part of my job is like, you know, giving women and understanding that you don't have to look your best all the time and it's not about that it's about learning how to when you want to and building some of that self esteem and confidence because I know for me when I when I look good I feel good and that's just how I feel some people are completely different. But I just Yeah, I guess coming into my business too and learning about my personal style and learning how to, I guess dress to that and as well as learn like the the art of actually styling and how different things create different looks. In the illusions of some things in the ratios and drawing the eye to where I want people to be looking and that sort of thing, so it's quite fascinating. There is quite a lot of education and knowledge that goes behind it. But um, yeah, I think it really depends day to day. My, my style, it changes all the time. So that one that's that's a good answer that makes that makes perfect sense. And I'm also wanted to ask, is there any sort of like, well known people like celebrities or public figures style that you really admire, that you think is really awesome. Yeah. So there's a couple of standout ones. I'm not sure how well that well known there'll be to some people but I know like anyone that knows me or follows me knows I'm obsessed with a lady named Sophie Bell who goes by the Instagram Peppa heart. And I just yeah, love her style. Love her vibe, I guess. Yeah, she's definitely someone that I source a lot of inspiration from. There's a couple of other stylists who I really enjoy their style. And that is Elise Greer in Melbourne and Lauren dimenna in Marion. So I think she's now Lauren Willis. She just got married recently. But it's quite fascinating because she was actually one of the stylists when I was working at General Kenton, Marian. And so I knew her from Marian and I remembered her face. I remembered what she was doing. And then years later, I went to Adelaide fashion festival with ash from a last day or Ashley Lauren, who's my sister in law that does obviously all those amazing headpieces and her brand is amazing. And yeah, we went to a live fashion festival and I saw Lauren, and I was like, You know what, I'm gonna go up and tell her that she was actually yeah, like a bit of the reasoning behind why I got into doing what I was doing. And I'm went up to her and yeah, introduce myself. And she remembered me and now we actually yeah, have quite a bit of contact. And yeah, so she's definitely someone that I sought inspiration from and I just think to like Carrie Bickmore I don't know there's something about her. She can just wear anything ever. And she just always looks amazing. So yeah, that'll be that'll that'll be my life and that's cool. Read your work. You mentioned Ashley, Lauren, you've done. You went to New York for her runway in 2017. That's pretty. That's a pretty big highlight. It's not massive. I don't I don't know how I'll probably ever top that. That was just a bucket list item from Yeah, just way back. And so at the time, when Ash got that opportunity, I'd obviously been involved a little bit in her business. And you know, we helped on photo shoots and bits and pieces. But at the time that she got the invite to New York, I was actually managing Smeagol. So a children's stationery store, like completely total opposite genres in every way. But at the time, I was looking to travel and that was you provide, getting the opportunities to do that. And so yeah, I was doing that. And I'd started my styling business on the side and was just kind of getting it up and running and seeing how I felt about it and learning all about it. And yeah, Ash rang me one night when I was working Thursday, late night shopping at Smeagol, which was I think I just got invited to New York Fashion Week. So I was like, well, let's just like definitely kind of knock out those details and find out if it's real, because it's like, Oh, my God. And then yeah, sure me back. She's like, I think it's legit. And so she was like, oh, like you have to come and she's like, well, you quit your job and come with me. I was like, Um, let me think about that. I rang my boss the next day, I was like, I'm sorry about this opportunity has, you know, popped up and even my boss was like, she's like, look, I don't I don't want to see you go. But absolutely, she's like, you would be stupid to turn that down. So I went on packing lunch boxes one night to a few months later going to New York Fashion Week and styling the models there. So I just always believe that yeah, life always has a path for us when we when we need it or Yeah, believe everything happens for a reason. And that was obviously a big a huge starting point in my business to considering I hadn't been up and running for very long. So that kind of Yeah, snowballed into something. Yeah. Even more amazing as well. So yeah, So, yeah. And I mean, I don't expect you to name drop, but you can if you are you with your style some of the WAGs for the AFL Brownlow, which is pretty. Yeah, yeah. I was actually looking at the photos you sent me today. And I also hadn't thought about it. Do you tell the hair and makeup? How you want? Like it's the whole package? Do you describe everything how you want it done? Like, yeah, you do. Like, it's the whole look sort of thing. Yeah. So it isn't the whole look. So I think that's one thing that people think this styling too is that I just pick the garments or the outfit, but I am involved in the whole process. And that's not just with the brand new clients that's with every client, especially if they're doing event styling and stuff like that, at the end of the day, obviously, it comes down to their preference, they're the one that has to wear it, not me, but I definitely put my kind of spin on it or vision and say, This is what I think that we should go with. And they kind of take it from there. And then it's also about, I guess why using with the hair and makeup artists to, to make sure that they're comfortable in showcasing what they want to showcase because it's about them showing their art to so the styling is my part, the designer is there, part three, they've got to be happy with what they're putting out there. Same with hair and makeup, they're not going to do something that they're not comfortable with doing or they don't like because it's their name on it too. So it really is a whole kind of team effort. There are a lot of people involved. But yeah, with the brand loads too. It's it's, again, there's so much that goes into it that people don't see behind the scenes. It's not just go there on the day, and it's an hour to get like this is like months worth of work in the lead up and you know, picking designs and contacting designers and yeah, working out looks and then like yeah, hair and makeup and accessories sort of thing. So for me to obviously don't live in a major city. So I'm doing all of this via email and phone. When I originally started Kelly beams who was my first ever Brownlow client, I actually flew to Brisbane. And she just had a baby. So originally, we were kind of looking for off the rack because fittings and appointments and all that were quite hard to manage. But then in the end, we ended up securing a designer and getting custom in the end, which turned out amazing. But yeah, it's it's just like a whirlwind. And I don't think I'll ever be able to describe that feeling of hearing my name on the red carpet or, like especially with them. Yeah. Julie Neil, on the second year, like Lucky Neil has obviously become quite well known in the year after he actually won, which is, you know, getting the weight in like riding COVID time. And I just had Yeah, a young, a young baby at home and was in the thick of that. And it's just yeah, I guess sometimes I just thought that's one of those moments where I feel like I'm on the outside looking in and I'm like, wow, that's just little me just would have been like yay. Like, that's, that's always something that I've wanted. So I'm really hoping to get back into a bit of that again this year. And now that I'm back sort of Yeah, working in being involved. I'm really hoping that I can secure some of those red carpet moments again, because they are Yeah, so so much fun and yeah, really amazing to be a part of. You're based in Munich, Gambia. So for those who don't know my Gambia is basically halfway between Adelaide and Melbourne. So we're only like, what do we got 30,000 people, not a huge, huge town. So how do you go there? Like you mentioned the, the phone calls in the Skype and stuff like Do you ever feel like it's a drawback being here? Or do you just think no, but this is where my life is. And you just make it work? It really, it really does go both ways. I mean, I won't lie there would definitely be way more opportunities for me in this city with what I do. And you know, I've kind of made my peace with the fact that that that is how it is. On the other hand, I don't think my business would have become anywhere near as successful if I had launched it in the city. I think watching it here. There wasn't a whole heap of competition at the time when I started. There, I guess. Word of mouth in a small town. I was a really big thing too. And I had already known a lot of people, I come from a big family. My partner or my now husband knows a lot of people in his family and through ash and all of her connections and the people that I've met along the way in my network and friends, that in itself was advertising for me. So had I started in the city, I might not necessarily have had that. So I think it's definitely helped my business and is the benefit. And currently to, although there's not as many opportunities as what there are in the city, there are still ample opportunities, because I am here doing it. And again, I still have those networks and those resources. So it can be a little bit challenging, I guess, especially for some of the clients that I have worked with or want to work with the time and the travel. And now with young kids, it makes it a little bit harder to manage some of those things. But yeah, I mean, at the same time, I've just kind of ran with it. And for now, this is this is where I am, and this is where I want to be. And I'm not ruling out of move in the future. Because I believe, you know, when opportunities arise, you got to go to assess, and I am one of those, I say yes. And I figured the rest out later. So I'm not ruling it out. But at the same time, if I was to be here forever, then that's yeah, that's how it is. And I think that's been part of, especially through COVID, and stuff like that to adapting my business to not just be tunnel in what I offer. I can't just offer one thing. It's about learning. What are the things am I good at? What are my strengths? What other things can I offer? I think there's an opening in the market for different things that I'm kind of working on behind the scenes at the moment. So things like that, I think, yeah, it is in my benefit to be in Merritt, Gambia. It just makes it a little bit more work. Yes, sometimes when working with the people from away or, you know, to we have amazing stores here in Mount Gambia with a lot of amazing local businesses. But sometimes, you know, I don't have a Rundle Mall at my back door, or I don't have a Chadstone shopping center. So sorting things for clients can sometimes be a little bit challenging, too. So like I said, there are pros and cons. Either way, it's hard, but at the same time, yeah, I think it has made my business to be what it is today being in Mount Gambia. Yeah. And I think there's a tremendous amount of like, you talked about the word of mouth that community support, I think people here really get behind each other. Like if someone's gonna crack, they really support and share and tell people and social media, all that sort of stuff. It's a really good community. Yes. Yeah. It's great. We are very lucky to have that community. And And as I've said it like 1000 times, and I say, you know, I'm so grateful for the support that the community has shown, but I don't think I'll ever Yeah, ever get over that. Because to take an idea and run with it is nerve racking. And it's like daunting, and you know, it can be quite challenging. But when you get that bit of a support, I think, too, makes you want to support others in the community as well or their businesses because you know what it's like to get that sorry. I think it's yeah, it's great for everyone. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So turning over to your family side, you've mentioned your children, just in passing a couple of times. Tell us a little bit more about your kids. Yes. So I have Vance, who will be eight months old this week. And I have Ziggy who is turning three in May. So there's 10 days between their birthdays. So two years apart. My Yeah. Crazy boy. I say crazy boys. It's crazy. Crazy. He is He is my whirlwind and Vince is my little chiller so we'll see if it changes but yeah, it's it's been a roller coaster the last couple of years. It's and it's so true. People say it is the hardest thing that you will ever do, but definitely worth it. There are some days I want to pull my hair out by like breakfast time. And then there are other days where you're just like I'm smashing this I've got to get it down. Pardon. Yes. So but it's great. I love it. And I love being a boy mom and yeah, they they definitely keep me entertained, that's for sure. It's funny when I had I've got two boys and I like when I had my second boy Like everyone knew that will be my last child. I remember my, my pop said to me Oh, sorry, you didn't get your girl and I was like, but it's actually okay because I actually love having boys. I never had a brother. So I was totally new to this whole boy world. But it's so I just love it. It's just I know. And I was the same like 100% like total honesty, I was a little bit disappointed when we found out that the second was going to be another boy, I think just because the pregnancy for me was quite different. And I don't know, we both my husband and I had a strong feeling it was going to be a girl. And we never found out the sex was easy, but I was 100% locked in that it was a boy from the get go. And so yeah, I think this time, we were really 5050 on whether we were going to find out or not. And then we decided to, and then that little bit of disappointment lasted and then like for maybe a day and then the next day I was like this is so how it's meant to be. And I'm like it's so true when people say you just grateful to have a happy, healthy baby. And that's exactly what I was happy to have. And I was yeah, I felt very lucky. And now it's like dance was just always meant to meant to be mine. So I can't imagine life without him now. So I'm so glad it turned out the way that it did. Yeah, that's so sweet. I just got goosebumps when you said that. Because we say the same thing. Sorry. I'm getting emotional. We say the same thing available filler. It's like you just can't you just can't imagine not having him. No, you just, you were meant to be in our family law. 100%. That's I know, unlike even with the you like I say, you know, he's he's my crazy one. But I think they are very different personality wise and like, oh my gosh, I'd love to gamble with anything in this world. But he was a hard newborn. And we I don't think I slept for like, it felt like eternity. He wasn't a great sleeper. Wasn't a great feeder. Very busy, but, you know, like, he's still very affectionate at the same time. And now with events, he seems to have, I was worried us like if I'm gonna do that, on top of having a two year old I don't I don't know how things are gonna go. But now like Vince is you know, he sleeps quite well. And he's he's quite relaxed and quite chilled and just happy to take it all in. So I think Yeah, it's true that you just, you know, you deal with it, what you dealt with, but I think Vance knew that I needed a, I needed a good sleep at this time round. To be mine is delivered, delivered the good. I mean, apart from teething, that's to you better in the work yeah. In terms of your work, then were you able to keep working? I guess three pregnancies and like after you had I know you're sort of starting to get back in but after your head Ziggy where you were getting back into work? How that sort of go for you. Yeah, so when I was pregnant with Ziggy, I was diagnosed with hyperemesis. So that is like extreme nausea and vomiting, like, a lot. So it definitely threw a little bit of a spanner in the works. But I was really lucky at that time. Majority of my work was through ash, I was working with ash. So I was very lucky that you know, the days that it was really bad, I was able to head home or work from home and that sort of thing. And we're still doing my business, but I was mindful not to kind of overexert myself. And yeah, he's just kind of monitor but um, it was really funny, because the week before I went to the brown loads, the first time I actually found out I was pregnant that week with Ziggy and I had severe morning sickness. So I was actually styling the girls and want to get the brown light at the crown. I had five girls to do that year, and I was vomiting like, in their rooms. And so I had kind of blinded on nerves at the start. And then in the end, I had to tell them because I was like, they're gonna be like, What is going on with this chair? Because I had like, I'm really sorry, I'm actually pregnant and like violently ill. So that was a journey in itself. But then yeah, that had had that up until about halfway and then had a really enjoyable pregnancy busy, and then had probably about four or five months off when I had zeggen loved that time. You know, adjusting to motherhood. But for me, I love my kids that I know that they're not just me, I need to have a creative outlet and do a bit of work to make me I guess not lose that sense of self identity that was really important to me. I feel like I'd worked so hard to get to that point, I didn't want to then just, you know, lose it all. And that I just felt like it wasn't really in me to do that. So yeah, got back into a bit of work just part time. And then yeah, if anything, business just started booming, which was amazing, but was a bit of an adjustment after, you know, learning how to go back into the workforce as a mom and learning to do things on no sleep and learning about daycare and babysitters and routines and time management, I think was a big one. And then, yeah, when he was about 18 months old, we decided to start trying again. And yeah, I was like really quite lucky that we can say vets, but unfortunately, with his pregnancy came hyperemesis again, and, like double as intense, like, I was so sick it like, Oh, I get emotional talking about it, because I just don't know how I ever function through that. And I don't know, if people really understood how bad it was like mentally and physically. So I ended up before anyone knew I had to take six weeks off of work, because I was just struggling so bad. And it was at the time that I had just opened a new studio and was working out of that. So it was quite challenging. And that lasted the whole pregnancy. So I ended up having to start my maternity leave a lot earlier. And yeah, it just, I don't know, it was just just threw a massive spanner in the works, I think because physique, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have it to halfway and then I'm going to be fine. And it's going to be smooth sailing. And then when I kind of got to the halfway, I was like, why am I not feeling better yet? Like, this is not kind of what I what I had signed up for. As always, I had amazing clients who were very understanding and who was so good, but it was a real eye opener to me to take care of myself and and look after myself. And unfortunately, that just meant, yeah, putting everything on hold for for quite some time. So yeah, yeah, it was a bit of a learning experience. But just one of those things. You just got to ride ride the waves. And yeah, I've come out the other side. And maybe that's why I got a really good baby, because I had a really bad pregnancy. Maybe that's how it was. Yeah, you are that after all Yeah. I was reading one of your blogs on your website. When you were talking about that early phase after you you had ZTE. And one of the one of the things I wanted to ask you about you, you said that you were eager to have some time off and enjoy the phase. But you also you'd struggle to be fully detached from it all. So was that on your mind already? When you were pregnant? And going into having the baby we thinking, how's this gonna go for me? I'm used to being so creative. You know? How am I gonna feel? You know, it was and it was, it was really quite interesting. Because obviously, I guess until you're in that situation, and you are pregnant, and you are thinking you don't for me, I hadn't really thought about it. Like when we talked about having a baby and starting a family and all of that. It wasn't really something that I considered at that time. But then definitely as the pregnancy kind of Yeah, progressed, and I was sick, and it was changing my plans that was kind of that eye opener to Oh, that's right, like everything is going to change, you know, and how am I going to manage this? And I think for me, and I know like ash can vouch for this. I really did struggle with the thought of being put on hold again because I felt like I'd had to work so hard to get to that point. And those first couple of years were full of such highlights. You know, things like New York and the brown noise and Adelaide fashion festival and, you know, I went to Melbourne fashion festival and that was amazing. And there was all these things that I felt like was such huge highlights to me and then how thing that bit of I guess, I guess a little bit of worry to that, because I'm not relevant at the time or I'm kind of taking that time off. I didn't want to then lose all the business that I'd worked so hard to create and having to put myself out there again and starting started again. And, yeah, yeah, it was, and it was rebuilding, and it was quite challenging to, I guess, yeah, to switch off, but I know, definitely at the start, I did, because I didn't have a choice, I was literally so focused on that baby. And, you know, dealing with the sleep, and like learning how to mother and all of that, and I was really enjoying it too, like I, you know, was definitely had in the back of my mind, you know, a bit of work here, and there would be amazing, but I was really soaked into enjoying that time, because I know that you just don't get that time back. And especially with finance, that was one thing that I work this time around is that I'm not going to have that time back again. And they grow so fast, and just to enjoy it. So I had a lot longer off with Vance and what I did with Ziggy, I think two because I was much busier with the two than what I was just with the one it relearn how to parent again, but this time to two people at once. And yeah, it was definitely something that I Yeah, started, I guess struggling with throughout the pregnancy. But when I felt ready to and I knew that it was manageable. And I think for me, I kind of went into a bit of a downward spiral there. During the pregnancy, you know, we went into just a bit of, like chaos kind of around that time. And I just thought, you know what, I just, I need something, I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like Nana, I genuinely think, you know, it was the best thing I ever did. And everyone's different. Some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason. Other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what, what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. I'm like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish, because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. But I read this thing ages ago, and it's always stuck with me. And it's, we expect women to be mothers. And I can't I can't think how it goes. But it's like we want others to be, you know, mothers without working. But then we want like women to be working, you know, not mothering too. So it's, I'll have to find the quote. And it's something you know, and it was just so no matter what we're going to be judged whether we are working mothers, or whether we're stay at home mothers, either way, we're going to be judged. So I think it's about realizing that you just have to brush those those opinions off and just through Yeah, really what is right for you. And I know, I've received comments from both and some people like oh my god, it's amazing that you're getting back into work, and you're doing this and you're doing doing that. And then I've had the reverse it. Oh, but like do you do you think you should spend some more time at home with the kids and all this too? So I'm like, you know, you just take it with a grain of salt and you just got to really do what? What's right for you? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm gonna Yeah, go back. Go back to I've actually printed out your blog post. Yeah, it's actually very inspiring. It's, it's, we expect women to work like they don't have children and to raise children as if they don't work. And it's like, a nutshell. I loved that. You you basically said, I feared if I wanted to work as soon as soon after having a baby I'd be seen as a bad mom. And then I realized something amazing, I can actually do whatever the hell I want. And it doesn't make me a bad person, let alone a bad mom. So I'm actually going to stick that on my little quote. Well, because that honestly you're right, it doesn't who gives a shit? Anybody else thinks because I can make Greg moments I like but no one is in your shoes. No one is in your home. No one is in your hair. Like yeah, yeah. I was just saying this to Josh, my husband the other day, I was like, you know, isn't it funny? All the pressures that we put on ourselves, especially I think it's first time moms. You know, all these expectations that we have of ourselves and have How things are gonna go. And, you know, like, it's, it's so funny because I think of myself as a cool, calm collected person. I know there's definitely times where I'm a stress head, or you know, I won't, I won't say that I'm always cool, calm and collected. But I think going into the pregnancy and into the having a baby. I felt like I was like that. And in some ways, I think that I was and then But then looking back on it now, especially since having Vance, I'm like, Gosh, I wish I knew with my first what I know with my second and all these things that I was stressing about with Ziggy. But now this time around, I'm like, I don't even have time to stress about that. Because it's when you've got the next one, you're just thinking about completely different things. And I was only we've just started like, a few months ago started solids with the answers and example. And I remember thinking, you know, I had this book was again, it was an A, this amount of grain per day and this amount of protein and this amount of fruit veg. Now I'm like with Vance, I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't know any of that. I'm like, if he's hungry, he's hungry. If he wants to worry once more, and yeah, he's fine. If you look at him, he is massive, like, any of that stuff. So yeah, even I think that's why probably too, he's sleeping a bit better. Because I'm like, rat, you're getting wrapped up and you're getting put down. And just all the things that I second guessed myself is, uh, you know, this time around, and I said, you know, I could have been like that was to get the first time around, and it wouldn't have made me a bad mother. But at the time, I kept thinking on, is this how I'm supposed to be doing it? Or? Yeah, and I think because putting that pressure on myself through that time, I just got to a point of, I can't do this to myself anymore. And this is not me. And this is not who I am. And this is not my personality to be that way. And I think once I kind of through some of those, I guess, expectations of myself out the window, I definitely had a lot more of an enjoyable experience of motherhood. So yeah, it's good advice. Honestly, my story's very similar. I will my first I was just always stressed, always worried was, Is this right? How long should he sleep for? Is he getting enough milk, rara and the same thing? Like Alex was really full on like, didn't sleep, well didn't feed. And then there's seven years between my two kids, because I just couldn't be. Me and my siblings, actually their seven year. Yeah, yeah. So when I went back and got digs, I was like cheese. I hope I get a good kid this time. But I did, thank God, but I'm such a different person now. Like, I'm so much more relaxed. And because I've got that perspective, like you said, things that you were really worried about, you're like now or it's just, you know, things are just got to happen, because there's two of them now, and life's busy. I kind of wish this will sound really silly. But I almost wish I had I had twins, because then I wouldn't have had time to stress over all these little things I would have just doing stuff all the time. And just. And I have a really close, beautiful friend who has twins. And they were born like just before. So their birthdays. I think you're covering coming up soon. So they're like, Yeah, five months ahead of Ziggy. And I just remember thinking like when I was pregnant with him being like, and they already had another child. And I was like, oh my god, twins. And I was just like, Oh my God, and then watching her with hundreds. I was like, Oh, my God, like she just made it look so easy. And was so like, again, I felt like there wasn't it could have been different behind the scenes that she wasn't putting that pressure on herself. And it wasn't this and I learned a lot from her. And she was so helpful with with Ziggy when I was like pregnant with dance, and she was like, Oh, I'll take you for a few hours. And like, you're gonna take my child on top of your twins and your other child like a woman and I have to give her a shout out. And thanks, Candace. And she's just like, oh my god, I remember picking it up one day, and she barked at Him and given Him dinner. And he came around and I was just like, oh my god, like if she can do that, and she's I was like, then what am I even worried about? Like, oh, these things I'm like, I think it was the same. She just didn't have time. And she just did what she did. And honestly, they're the most beautiful little boys and I just say idolize Excellent guys. They just absolutely nailing parenthood. Oh, it's lovely to have those people around you, isn't it and select Edit. And for her to have done that. Like, it's like she knows what mums need. She knows the things that a yes, no, you know, yeah, that's awesome. Something for me. After having like, you know, until until you have a baby, you just don't know. You really don't know, unlike I mean, I've got lots of different friendship groups. In my sort of high school friends, I was only the second or third to sort of have have a baby. And then in other groups, you know, there was only a couple that that sort of had their first baby or young kids and when I had to get I remember messaging some of them and being like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like, I just I did not know what was involved and like I get it now I get it. And if anything, I think when my friends had babies, it almost gave me that little bit of confidence to be like okay, now I know that this is what they're going through at the same time and you know, hopefully I can drop a meal off here or there, or I can, you know, just send a text and see how they're going or be that ask questions. And I think, yeah, until you've done it, you just you just don't know, like he would eat. And I just instantly I remember like in the first few weeks after having Ziggy, but thinking of all of the people that I knew that had kids and just like having a newfound respect for them and being like, wow, like, I just yeah, it's just a crazy journey. And no one I don't think no matter what anyone says, either or just will not prepare you for what you're in for, especially in those first, you know, especially with the first time around and in those first few months of learning. And, you know, and dealing with the emotions, I think was a big one like God, like how can you love something so much? And yeah, I felt like I was not an emotional person. And then I think since having kids that's just gone out the window. And now I'm just emotional over everything. I'm not emotional, and I will just cry over something so stupid, and I'm okay. Yeah, cuz it definitely changed have changed that personality trait in me. Oh, sweet. But you're right. It wouldn't. It doesn't matter how much how many people try and prepare you for being a mother or a father. It's like, because your brain doesn't even go there. Like you don't believe them. Like, don't believe them when they say you won't get sleep. Yeah. Okay, that's nice. Like you just don't believe. I remember specifically one night with ZTE. I don't even know at the surface. I slept on the couch for six weeks when I had ZTE. Like I couldn't even sleep in the same room as my husband cuz he was getting up and going to work and like, we were just up all night. So it was trying to make sure that he got rest. And I remember sitting out on the couch one night and just like, I remember patting again, I was so delirious, I think I'd slept like an hour in like, it felt like a week. But it was probably like a day or two. I remember having him and being like, Oh, I remember when people said that I would be tired. But like I didn't understand to the extent of lack Watch out. And I remember that patting him on the back as I was half like micro sleeping like, this isn't tired. This like, this is not even tired. This is like pure exhaustion and like delirium. And until you know, I pick up people tried to warn me when I was like, yeah, no lesson until you're going through it. You just or when people say that you Yeah, that intense love or like imagining that God forbid anything happened to them. And I just remember there's been times where I've worked myself to tears, thinking, oh my gosh, if anything ever happened, like, I hope they know how much I love them. And you know, it's just, it's just a whirlwind, all the emotions, all the feelings, it's incredible. So you touched briefly on they talked about identity. So it's obviously very important to you to see that you're not just and I don't want to say just a man because you never, I'm doing air quotes. But it's yeah, it's important to you to be Kelly to be a wife to be the sister or, you know, a daughter that it's like, mum doesn't consume everything of your being. Yeah, it can't be just just me, I think, I think too, because part of that probably stemmed from, in, in my, I guess, business or my job, working with women and trying to push them to understand the same thing. And even before I had kids, a lot of the clients that I had were young mothers. And so you know, I was understanding but again until I'd been through it myself, I wasn't you know, I didn't understand fully what what they were experiencing what I was trying to teach them about their self worth and self esteem. And a lot of them were coming to me being like well, you know, we just We've just lost our way and we just don't have that confidence that about ourselves and we're just yeah, like a little bit lost and I was I guess for me it was good because I was an outside source. I wasn't you know, a sister or a friend or I was someone completely disconnected coming in and teaching them like you know, you are valuable and you know, it doesn't make you shallow to make you want to sell feel good and why not find this self identity and learn that it doesn't make them a bad person to yet take care of yourself. doing things for yourself or to re learn that for myself and I became a mom, it was like, I've done this for years. And now I'm doing it's like, I need to remember to hang on a minute. Yeah, it's okay for me to do things. And yeah, I think it was a really kind of useful tool, entering motherhood, after learning about all of this stuff. Because it kind of Yeah, gave me the stepping stones to learn for myself on that journey. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I think what I'm finding talking to moms throughout this project is everyone needs something to fill them up. Like everyone needs something that meets their needs. Because mums are so busy looking after everybody else all day long. And, you know, fixing this and doing that and finding socks and cooking meals, that's fine. But then at the end of the day, there has to be something just for you. You know, it's just Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you shouldn't feel guilty for that. Like, there's no reason to, to feel bad for that, you know? Yeah. And I remember Yeah, I think I said in that blog, I was like, you know, I was worried about, you know, being perceived as a bad mother. And I was like, if anything, it made me a better mother. It made me more patient and tolerant when I was had that bit of something for me, and I knew it made me a better parent to do that, then not to have that. So, yeah, for me, yeah. They've made me feel better within myself, which in turn, are good. I project that onto my kids in feeling good at second. And you know, it is a prime example today. You know, boy jumped on this. And you know, this. I have one of these days, I think the heat has just gotten to everyone I know, it's gotten to me, and we've had a stressful couple of days with everything that's been going on. And the kids haven't been sleeping super amazing. So I think after having such a good run, and then having sleep problems week or so, patient is not where where is I'm like, Ziggy's having meltdowns, university being and I started noticing all of this, and I had yesterday I was like, Alright, I've got to go and do something like for me or do something that I think it's going to make me feel better. And I am working with a brighter moment. And so for me, it created a bit of that stuff. So sometimes, you know, self care isn't just going and taking 20 minutes alone, sometimes it can come in many different forms. It could be surgically, you know, a walk or something like that. But for me, that creative outlet is almost a bit of my self care. Yeah. So I think it's about learning to Yes, what it is that makes you feel better, or what you get enjoyment out of and making time for that, because I'm definitely a candidate that in the last few days, you know, it's a domino effect when I'm stressed it shows in my children. Yeah, absolutely. I can definitely relate to that. It's just, yeah. When Mom's not happy, no one's happy. Exactly. My husband watch for that, too. I see him he's a he's been very patient. Tonight, I ask what sort of, if you've got anything coming up, you want to share about things you're working on? Or? I mean, I'm not asking you to, you know, give away any secret stuff. But have you got anything you wanted to share with the listeners? So when I was introduced, last year, I was so sorry, yeah, last year, in the year before, gosh, it feels like it's almost like a lifetime ago now. I started watching weddings, and like wedding planning and brides. I've worked on a few weddings since then. But I'm actually currently in the process of a complete rebrand and overhaul to focus a lot more on that. So that'll be a complete separate side my business now, which is really exciting. And I'm also currently in the process of creating a new little workspace. So that's been Yeah, a little bit exciting. And it's a slow process, but where we're getting there. So even though Brendan started one of those things, like I have an idea and kind of find time to make that idea work and put the things into that idea can sometimes take a little while. But yeah, definitely. There's a lot of things at the moment. So yeah, if anyone that follows my page or you know, keeps up to date, just stay tuned, because it's all coming about very soon. Well, that's so exciting. That's it So it's like, it's been a real sort of, you know, the, over the last few years like this growth and development for you that you've sort of found things that you love doing. And it's like you've realized there doesn't have to be limits to what you can offer people, like it's just kept building and building. That's so great. learning on the job, you know, I originally started out just making wardrobe audits for people. And as much as I love that my business has progressed a lot more on top of that, and, you know, just I really, it was, was really quite interesting, because last year, I hit, you know, a milestone of how many clients I'd had, and going back through those clients, and actually looking at the different things that I had done in that time. And, you know, I'll always remember those first few clients that I work with, and the things that I'm working on now. It just, yeah, it's it really has evolved into something a lot more than I ever envisioned, and the things that I was doing then to what I'm doing now, you know, working with businesses for their uniforms, and like family shoots, and maternity shoots and stuff like that, what I was doing was event based, as well. And I think it's, you know, even things now that I'm offering digitally that I wasn't able to do beforehand. So it is nice to kind of, I think it keeps exciting to I'm one of those I like a bit of a challenge. And I like you know, having having things happening. So it is really good. There's a lot of, you know, different avenues, you know, in the short term, but again, that doesn't necessarily what I can do in a long term. I'm, you know, it's one of those things, I have all these grand ideas that just believe in the time everything, so I'll be, you know, styling the Oscars or something like that in no time. So stay tuned for that. We'll make sure that we're when we hear your name on the road. We can manifest it out there. Oh, absolutely. That's it. Thanks so much for coming on. Kelly. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for being a part of it. Thank you for having me. Having a chat. Yeah, it's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Steve Davis Father's Day Ep - marketing consultant, comedian, educator + podcaster S2 Ep62 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts The second of my special episodes to mark Australian Father's Day 2022 features Steve Davis, a marketing consultant, educator, comedian, theatre reviewer + podcaster from Adelaide, South Australia, and a dad of 2 girls. Steve was passionate about being in radio. He recalls being 12 years old listening to his red transistor radio in his bedroom and deciding then + there he was going to be a radio announcer. This morphed into journalism + Steve spent countless years in radio newsrooms in Adelaide. After being in the newsroom on the day the Twin Towers fell on September 11th , + witnessing the way the journalism was used to fuel fear + increase ratings in the weeks following, Steve became quite jaded. He quit within a week and joined a marketing company and was there for the next 19 years. He then decided to go out on his own and started his own marketing consultancy, Talked About Marketing, which is based on a saying by one of his literary heroes, Oscar Wilde: There's only one thing worse than being talked about and that's not being talked about. In 2013 Steve was looking for a creative outlet and started The Adelaide Show Podcast, a show that passionately showcases the people of the great state of South Australia. The podcast proudly holds the title of Silver for Best Interview Podcast in Australia in the Australian Podcast Awards 2021. Apart from podcasting, after hours Steve does character-based stand up comedy as his two alter egos: Professor Sebastian Longsword from The MBA School of MBA Credentials, and Social Sales Whisperer, Darren Hill. Both have websites + linkedin profiles, + get booked to MC events + deliver talks. Steve has appeared on the reality tv series Is This Thing On? reflecting on his experience in the School of Hard Knock Knocks comedy school. Steve is driven by curiosity and says the formal setting of an interview is his natural habitat, whether that's in a studio or around a dinner table. Today we enjoy a really fun, lively, and at times quite serious chat covering journalistic integrity, raising girls and the significance and authenticness of including children in your art and creativity. **This episode contains discussion around a near death accident + still birth** Explore Steve's worlds : Talked About Marketing / The Adelaide Show Podcast / Professor Longsword / Darren Hill Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on my special episodes to mark Australian Father's Day 2023 Steve Davis is a marketing consultant, educator and trainer, comedian, theatre reviewer and podcaster from Adelaide, South Australia and is a dad of two girls. Steve was passionate about being in radio from a young age. He recalls being 12 years old and listening to his red transistor radio in his bedroom at home and deciding then in there, he was going to be a radio announcer this morphed into journalism and Steve spent countless years in newsrooms across Adelaide radio. After a negative experience in the newsroom in Adelaide on the day the Twin Towers fell on September 11. And the weeks following Steve witnessing the way journalism was used to fuel fear and increase ratings. Steve became quite jaded. He quit within a week and joined a marketing company and was there for the next 19 years. He then decided to go out on his own and started his own marketing consultancy, talked about marketing, which is based on a saying by one of his literary heroes, Oscar Wilde, there's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about. In 2013, Steve was looking for a creative outlet, and he started the Adelaide Show podcast, a show that passionately showcases the people of the great state of South Australia. His podcast holds the title of silver for best interview podcast in Australia in the Australian Podcast Awards of 2021. Apart from podcasting, after hours, Steve does character based stand up comedy, as he's to alter egos. Professor Sebastian long sword from the MBA school of MBA credentials, and social sales whisperer, Darren Hill, hashtag D H. Both have a website and LinkedIn profiles, and they get booked to emcee events and deliver talks. Steve has also appeared in a reality TV series, based on his experience in the school of hard knocks knocks comedy school called hits this thing on. Steve is driven by curiosity, and says the formal setting of an interview is his natural habitat. Whether that's in the studio or around the dinner table. Steve certainly inhabits a strange world and he wouldn't have it any other way. He is a self proclaimed microphone tart and enjoys being behind the microphone. Today we enjoy a really fun and lively but at times quite serious chat, covering journalism, integrity, raising girls, and the significance and authenticity of including your children in your art and creativity. This episode contains discussions around a near death accident and stillbirth. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you health professionals, or from resources online. You can find a list of international resources that I've compiled on the podcast landing page Alison newman.net/podcast music you'll hear on today's episode is from LM Joe, which is my ambient and new age music trio comprising of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode thank you so much for coming on stage. It's a real pleasure to have you here on a special Father's Day episode. I'm a little bit daunted, to be honest, but I'm glad to have the chance to chat with you. Lovely. So we have met before you know full disclosure for the audience. I've met you before and I've I'm a fan of your podcast and you've been generous enough to include some of my music on your podcast in the past. So I'll just say that first. So if we talk about things and people go, I don't know what that means. You know, just put that out there but so for those I don't know what you do. Steve, can you share? What, what you spend your days doing? All right. Let's do the day part of my day that's been running my business, which is called talked about marketing, which is a little marketing consultancy. There's about five of us who hover in that orbit, primarily working with small business. And it's named after a very famous quote from Oscar Wilde, who's my literary hero, which said, there's only one thing worse than being talked about. And that's not being talked about. And when I got tipped out of a nest as in before, and had to start my own business, it just hit me in one bit that Oscar Wilde has been my totem, if you like, throughout my life, and it was just perfect to call that. So that's what I do throughout the day. And, you know, that takes me all over the place. At nighttime, it's a little bit mixed up. So I do the Adelaide Show podcast. As my, one of my little, I consider it a little community gift. I love doing it. I love sharing stories that are often heard. But then I also have ventured into the realm of stand up comedy. We might get to how that happened later. But in that I have since evolved to have two different characters. Professor Sebastien long sword who's a doddering old MBA professor. And Darrin Hill, who is a sleek, they're not sleazy, he is a he just thinks he's cooler than he is. He's a social media sales whisperer. And the sales whisperer his his big thing is hashtag D H. Which he is completely unaware of the dual meanings of that they just thinks it's his initials, but it's emblematic of how he is. Anyway. That's what I do in the evenings. Primarily, they're the main things. And look, I'd also do theater reviews. So I suppose that falls under the artistic banner, as well, reviewing Theater, which I've done for both 30 years now. Yeah. And are you still doing your training where you, you teach social media and things like that? That's right. That's part of my day job. Okay, Emily read recently over in the wonderful, far western South Australian town of Sedona doing that last week, which is about as far away from the side of South Australia that you're on? Yeah, that you could possibly get to. So, no, I'm still doing a lot of that. Oh, great, because that's how you and I first met, and when I came to one of your trainings, which was awesome. I told my dad I had to do it for for his work, but really, I was doing it for my own selfish proceeds. Yes, I remember the rationale. Yeah. And I should mention to you are from South Australia, you're in Adelaide. Have you always been living in South Australia? For most of my life, except when I turned 25. My girlfriend at the time had gone traveling Europe to find herself. And so that was it. Ball of tears, things are over. And then about 18 months later, she says that I've just discovered Hungary. I think you'd love it. So I went over and stayed for a week. There's my goodness, the stories from that week. We fit in Budapest, Vienna, and Venice. I was flying back. Sorry. We were flying back on how to fly back on New Year's Eve on whatever that year was 1991 and had to catch a train from Venice into Vienna. I booked a hotel room at the Vienna Hilton. The only place left was 350 bucks. When we got their. They said sorry, we had to let your room to someone else. So this is before mobile phones and all that sort of stuff. So what were you doing? She said there is an option. Would you mind if we put you in the Presidential Suite on the 18th floor for no extra charge? Ah. Which was fascinating. But of course when you were in that room, your whole half of the top of the Vienna Hilton on New Year's Eve, you use room service, so it ended up costing 550 bucks, but it was worth it. Anyway. So I ended up came back gave notice. I had been working at the one radio station for seven and a half years gave notice and went back a month later with a one way ticket and lived in Budapest for two years. So apart from that I have lived in South Australia. I am sorry, I just wanted to footnote my references to living in Budapest happen often it just pops up in life it shouldn't it's sad. You think there'll be some other anchor in my life, but I've got a dear listener who's listened to the Adelaide show from day one. His name is Alexis Catalina and he has a drinking game. Any episode where I may In Budapest or living in Hungary that's a really well, hello, you listening? Yes. Thanks for Yeah, one for me, do you? So going back to your beginnings, how did you first get involved? Like you're pretty you said you were you were doing something previous to starting your own business. Was that sort of in the same area? Like we always involved in this sort of, sort of area? No, it was radio. And I remember being 12 years old, sitting on my bed at home listening to five ad, which was the hot station at the time on a little red transistor radio. And whoever was on I think it was Matt Ford, but I can't remember they did a crossfade. From Deep Purple's Smoke on the Water to races, I think was racy or smoke is Oh, Carol. Yeah. You couldn't think of the worst two songs to put one after the other one is heavy grands, bluesy grant, and the other one is pop. And at that moment, I just looked up in the air and said, This is what I'm going to do. I want to be a radio announcer. And so at that point, I just fixed my head and no one could talk me out of it. I remember in high school, towards the end with the career vocations, the teachers are saying, Look, you're doing well. You shouldn't be you know, no. Radio, there's no you got it. So I had to choose down three careers. And I thought back of this, so I put down president of USA is option number one. I put down I think it was NASA astronaut number two, and radio announcer number three is at their jet. Show and I did the 12 just to fill in the time because I thought no one's going to hire a 15 year old Pimply kid as a radio announcer. And after I did a radio school course with Vaughn Harvey, the late great phone Harvey whose voice still echoes around the universe today he had one of those voices that was like, hello, I'm Warren Harvey. This is the Harvey Cardwell report. He was a very wonderful man that about three foot high like a beard of GNOME, but he was amazing. Ah, there's a there's a possibly legally questionable story that's fun to tell that involves him in my time in Hungary, which are migratory. But long story short 18 months out of school doing part time jobs. He said, Steve five and you at Mary bridge have contacted me there's a job coming up. Can you go to an interview on Sunday morning. And this now of people who don't know I was in Adelaide, Mary bridges a country town about 50 minutes away. I had no idea how far away it was. For me it was the country. So that's like three hours minimum. So I got a good mate to meet me and off. We went at 6am to go to this 10 o'clock appointment. On a Sunday, we had packed an esky. We're talking 1985 Here, packed an esky we had we end at 6:50am It's Welcome to Murray Bridge. And so we had to kill time. Anyway, I went in, did the interview at 10 and came out and said I'm on air at three o'clock this afternoon. So anyway, that started my role there. And I worked there for seven and a half years in radio. And then that turned into journalism. I mean, the radio got work in Budapest as well. I started doing some talkback in Adelaide. And this all this journalism and radio came to a head when I was on air in Adelaide when 911 happened. I was in the newsroom at mix one Oh 2.3 And five DN. When that existed, there was fog of war or whatever 5g and morphed into. And I was the one who broke the news that that would happen. And then the news director caught everyone in. And our job for the next week was to find every link we could between 911 and South Australian Adelaide to keep people on edge and glued to their radios. And I just said nah, nah, I have a higher bar for journalism. The fourth estate I think It's one of the most crucial things on this planet. And Its job is to be the guard dog of, of truth, you know, keep the lies out. And within a week I quit. And a person that I knew, said, look, I've got a marketing company. And because I also did photography needed to start with that and some writing, and I switched over to marketing where I was for 19 odd years, and then started talking about marketing after that, do you? Please tell me to shorten my answers? Okay, that's a that's a that was actually very concise answer. That was really good. And honestly, talk as much as you like, this is your this is your show, stave. Take away, you know, where you want to. It's interesting, you talk there about that. It was almost like they were they were turning the experience of 911 into like fodder, though. It was, you know, to try and diminish it in some way just to keep it entertaining and keep people listening. Does that I'm kind of looking for a link here. You talking about things? Like journalism is like the gatekeeper. Do you find these days, the amount of misinformation and disinformation and that sort of beating things up? And clickbait? Was that sort of, I guess, the start of that kind of thing? What look, I think that I had the pleasure of interviewing Peter gresty. Late last year, he's an Australian journalist who was wrongly imprisoned on trumped up charges in Egypt and was in jail for 400 days. And may I, I can't believe he agreed to be on the show. And we had a good deep warts and all chat about journalism, that and look, here's my position. That was horrible. We were still I think, the Gulf War period, or the 80s, when news started moving towards the 24 hour news cycle, which at the time, I would tell anyone who would listen that this is wrong. When you increase the volume of news you need, you have to reach lower into the barrel to fill it. And that's not good. And there's so there's that. And of course, there's a thing which the BBC has tried to stamp out recently called false equivalency, where if you've got, say, a scientist being interviewed about something, and there's someone who just has this random idea, yeah, false equivalency means you give 50% of time to the scientist and 50% of time to someone who's got no evidence to back up what they say. And so they have luckily moved to follow, I think Bertrand Russell, great English philosopher from the early 20th century, who said, you defer to an expert when they're talking about their field of expertise, but not if they veer from that. And so that sort of mixed up into I believe, we have this inclination this day and age to think we know everything. And so if something an expert is saying doesn't jive with how we see the world, we just dismiss them and not honor, the 1000 or 10,000 hours they've spent, like going through in depth. And here's the thing, there's a wonderful thing that since I discovered it early in sort of mid 2000s, this thing called the Dunning Kruger effect. It's helped me have a compass and the Dunning Kruger effect, in short, says, This was based on research over many years. When you know little about a subject, you instantly think you're an instant expert. You have no qualms. Do you have confidence to go forth? When you are actually a deep expert? They're the people who say, Well, it depends. And they understand nuance, and they know there's more to know, which works against the authority sometimes of the experts, because if they're being honest, I'd say this is within a certain probability what we think which allows others to nibble at them. Yeah, that's on one side. But there's another thing with journalism today that that I hear people say, oh, there's a conspiracy in journalism, to do things on purpose to us. And I am not a conspiracy. I'm not wired for conspiracy part. Because trying to organize people doing something together in the daylight is hard enough and never works. To think people can do it clandestine ly. So I don't think there's any grand plan in using anything to do with me. But what I do think is the numbers because Google and Facebook have robbed journalism, institutions of all their income from classified ads. They don't have the same resources, they got less people. And the only way they can survive is to, as you said, earlier, Allison, get the clickbait. So they've got to sex up their stories. And sadly, the algorithms that Facebook and YouTube use, put engagement above everything else. And the engagement that gets the most attention is typically anger and hatred. And so we've trapped ourselves into a corner, where the stomach that a proper editor has to allow a journalist to go deep and follow something through is shortchanged. Because if they allow that, and they don't have the clickbait stuff going, they don't have income to be here tomorrow. So it's messy. And there are good people out there in journalism, but the system is off funding is broken. And I would love as I would love the model that France uses to come into play where the government actually funds a certain percentage of journalists, they don't have any editorial control. But they say to the organization here, you've got these people, let them do good journalism. And I think that would make me much warmer towards the Fourth Estate these days, because it would give it breathing space to deliver stuff that sometimes I don't like, I don't care, I have to change my opinion, when new facts come to the table to be challenged. And you think about things a different way. That one sort of unwound a bit. But it isn't black and white. To me. It is flawed. It's a human enterprise. And clickbait layout just doesn't help. Sorry, I'll just finish on this one. I did an interview with Natalia boo Jenko, a couple of weeks ago, she's a Ukrainian woman who has been living in Adelaide for many years. And we did a deep dive on what's happening in Ukraine, because she's got 10 cousins still living there. And she just the absolute horror, of actual genocide that's been meted out by Russia is not enough at all at once, to get the Rupert Murdoch type organizations to continue working hard to make us and keep us interested. And so you get a celebrity who throws her top off, and that will take all the focus, because that's fine. And that gets the clicks or Tommy Lee, you know, he'll expose himself. And so that gets all the oxygen. And there are people, little kids, that the one point something million Ukrainians have been pushed to the far east of Russia, separated, it's just horrible. It really is bleak. But we don't have the appetite because they need the clickbait. And anyway, so I hope one day, and there are avenues where it is restoring itself. But yeah, it's bleak. But it's not all out to get us. That's the thing. It's just, it's just human. It's a human enterprise. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned Ukraine, because I know, like I listened to a lot of ABC and BBC Radio. And because the BBC World Service is, you know, the 24 Hour News Service. So I often leave that on while I'm asleep, you know, and then I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and I'll be like, Oh, what are they talking about? And so you do get the updates on Ukraine, but you have to almost look for, you know, it's not there. It's not the front page. It's not the first thing that comes up on the the news websites, which is it's disgraceful because the like you said, there is so much horror going on over there. And it's like, we've just blinded ourselves to have gone Oh, yeah, that happened. What was that February our year. Now, that's not happening now. You know. And there's a few people that I follow on Instagram who are constantly sharing updates and saying, This is still happening, you know, it's, we cannot forget about it, you know, we cannot just let it go and just makes me so uncomfortable that we are not, you know, banging the doors down and saying, This has to stop. This has to change because we've just, you know, Tommy Lee does his thing and we'll go oh, let's get distracted by that. You know, it's it's appalling. It's horrible. And the thing that wraps all this up is the world The Unbearable Lightness of Being, which is the title of a magnificent book by Vaclav Havel. And it's amazing movie. I'm going to watch it with friends. Again recent, soon in a couple of weeks, and that title, The Unbearable Lightness of Being, I would be happy to sit around a party a dinner table and just discuss that and teased apart for hours because our existence on this planet is light. And that lightness is unbearable, because we've got the heaviness of what's happening in Russia. And we have the light fun bits of someone doing something funny that we whom whom we know. And that's all part of it I, in the interview with Natalia, I made the comment that a little while back a few years ago, now I sort of fainted at night and fell down hit my head and discovered later that was a couple of centimeters either way, I wouldn't be here talking. And when I had to go to hospital for observation, when I came out, having been contemplating my mortal, brevity, nothing had changed in the planet, everything kept moving the buses were still gearing and you go, Ah, okay. And look, and that's how it has to be the world has to keep grinding on. And it is it is messy, are your guest recently, Lisa Sugarman, she made a point about hate, it's messy, and we just have to deal with that. So it is, and so we can't flagellate ourselves for not staying true to course, with following Ukraine. But the role of the prized role of an editor whose job has been to say, this is important, this is important, is a prized role. And I think it's an important role to play in our society. And when that is down, played, because our we need to get some sugar hits of, you know, clicks and likes, yeah, nobody is served by that. It is balanced. We can't be too hard on ourselves. But we have to try if we care about being part of this human tapestry. That's it, isn't it? It's got you've got to continue to try. And I mean, I understand you've got to have light and shade. You can't all be doom and gloom. But we can't let important things be out of our mind for too long. I don't think any but that's right, we have to survive. And we've got, you know, that thing they say on planes, where if the cabin pressure drops, put your mask on first and then help others. If we let out our oxygen be too sucked out. By being depressed by all these things over which we have little control, then we can't really help anyone. So it is a messy enterprise. That's a good analogy. That's a good way of looking at it. And that's actually a few of my mom's on the show have used that as an analogy for their own self care of looking after themselves. And then that enables them to look after their children. Because if you're if you're down, everyone is you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. Yes, I had the chance of meeting Jane Goodall through that late show many years ago. Yeah. And she's the lady who lived with apes, and we're very strident level headed conservationist. And the question I put to her was, we feel so helpless with these things, what do we do, and she said, You have to forget the big picture sometimes, and focus on what you can do on your square inch of the world and do something there, then you'll feel empowered again. And from there, as Paul Kelly sang from little things, big things grow. And that's why I was at the Ukrainian club the night before we recorded this, just to meet some of the people and support them have dinner there and pay them. And they had a room where people had donated clothes to look after some Ukrainian refugees who had come across my job quietly, the government's now stopped that there is no more invitation for Ukrainian refugees. And Natalia made the point to the trouble is, if the politicians aren't being needled by the populace, to keep it up, they can shut it down. And if the journalists aren't interested enough to keep the heat on, then the population isn't. And then the government's left off the hook. Yeah. And so it's a little sad circle there. However, there was a little thing we could do, and to be there and to support them. And that's what we could do because my family and I all went and we listened against an Italian episode in the car. We were all choking with tears at points because it is so real and heavy, but we then got to meet them and have fun and and, and engage and that's the Jane Goodall advice is very wise. So yeah, the message is we have to make our way through and look at it's not bad to look after ourselves on the way it's just getting the balance right, and we'll get it wrong. And then we correct ourselves. One last thing. Sorry. Go on. It's Allison. I love this. You are asking questions or opening up things. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People Stephen, have your mental plane. My dad had that book. I quote him all the time and I'm having a mental blank. It'll come to me in a moment. But there's a beautiful analogy that he uses, which is these huge Jumbos that fly from LA to Sydney are off course. According to him about 90 95% of the time they are off course. All that's happening it Stephen Covey, all that happens is our instruments. just nudge it back, and then nudge it back and then nudge it back. And he was saying, we have to be kind to ourselves in life, we will be off course often, but it's not a case for giving up. It's a case for just nudging back. nudging back, nudging back. Oh, I love that. Jeez, I could apply that to myself. Maybe we all can. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. I'm glad you kept on with that train of thought. Getting these little nuggets of gold All right, we're changing tack slightly. You are a father. Obviously. That's why I've got you here part of that reason. Can you share with us a little bit about your your children? Yes, I've got two daughters, AJ and Caitlin. And they're 14 and 12. AJC oldest, what can I say? They, they have, if there was a Venn diagram, between the two of them, they'd be a good bit of stuff they have in common. They both are very grounded and have a strong care ethos for others. And both can have a both are very clear. When they've decided what they want to do, they can be quite focused on that. And then you look at the bits of the Venn diagram where they're different. And AJ is this is like she should have been born in a tent. In the savanna, she is an outdoors person who loves horse riding, getting filthy, pushing herself to limit running, you know, all that sort of outdoor stuff. She talks more costly than the others, which is a little bit from her. Like grin. I think she got a lot of that from she's a little dynamo, she's short. So keep these in terms like little and doesn't give up. And just, we were at a friend's house recently at a place called bugle heart in South Australia, which is up near Renmark. Very for anyone who wants to check on a map, just inland a bit. And they have a horse, retired old racehorse big like huge horse and see that AJ hop on. And Yvette was saying, I've never seen that horse just it bought like it just it was able to trust AJ, AJ trusted it. And she said it was just magic. It was absolutely beautiful to see this pint sized little controlling this horse was just fantastic. And it was lovely. And and the other one Caitlin is more towards the reflective. She does gaming lots of talking with other people around games. And on that express, she does she's in the choir, she does drama. And she's sort of skewed that way. So they're just, you know, it's just, I love them to bits. I had the privilege recently we went to stay on a houseboat for a few days. Unfortunately, my wife couldn't make it because she was an acting head in the department she works for so and just go ahead that thrust upon us. I just needed to stay back. But it turned out to be you know, silver lining, because I got to spend just quiet downtime with them. And the thing I will remember one of the things I remember the most was the drive it was a three hour drive. And the iPhone is connected to the car sound system. And I handed it to Caitlin. I said you're the DJ. All three of us will go around and play a song but tell us why And so that whole journey I was amazed I've got great music tastes I mean, either bad for kids because I liked it or I'm just an odd but but that we all three of us said that was amazing. We learned so much. We got to hear songs we wouldn't have heard otherwise. And it was just the time just flew. Yeah, just lots of little things like that just happened throughout yeah I've got so many things, there's so many directions I could take you there after that, as I love these when I ask a question. And then you'd be the same to any journalist background like with people tell you things. And then like I'm scribbling down notes. Like, I want to know about that. I wonder about that. I love it. Be careful what you wish for. But you've already you've already got a taste. Right? We can make Part One and Part Two is gonna be like, you know, continuation challenge met. Oh, I love it. So. Okay, where will I go first? So the gills now I'm forgive me. I can't remember it might have been a J. In your recordings of your Adelaide Show podcast, here is AJ that she has a little speaking part. They both do. They both are doing okay. So Caitlin does the acknowledgement of country for beginning. But both AJ and Caitlin share the sign off at the end and AJ. So binary goes both ways. I'm gonna be random in just crazy. They call them my voiceover angels. So what made you want to include the girls in? Did they want to be a part of it? Or was it something you thought? That would be nice to have the mean? Well, they prove it's, it's, it's probably to know there'll be three strands to this. So yes, I desperately wanted them to be part of this thing. Because I was very mindful, especially when I started the Adelaide show back in 2013. That it is about 15 hours per episode. That goes into prepping it, recording it, editing it, and then promoting it. And that was a big chunk of dead time sort of taken out of the equation of the week. So none of this could have happened if Nadia, my wife hadn't understood it was you know, had to be to some degree, keep me sane. So I desperately wanted them to be part of it was one thing. Because there were a couple of times I remember when I was growing up when dad was a builder in the first part of his career, hopping in, in the school holidays, hopping into his sort of bizarre Bongo van kind of thing he had. And it felt great to be driving off to work. And I thought this is as close as it gets for providing that sort of thing. They were curious, they'd seen the mic, they played with the microphones a bit. It's probably a bit strong at that age to say they desperately want to be part of it. There was a playfulness about it. And there was another podcast I listened to. I should be careful to recommend it but it's called oh my goodness, mental blank. Here we go. It is very bad wizards. Language warning on that one. It's a philosopher and a psychologist. They're both tenured professors. They are cool dudes. But you know, that comes warts and all. And they one of his one of them is their daughter's does the opening. And she says this podcast is produced by my dad, and philosopher Baba. And they use language that I'm not allowed to say, and all that sort of stuff. And I just loved that. That intertwinement with the family connection, because they're not just these dudes. They're dudes who are situated within family systems. So this is an expression. I think it lends to some degree authenticity. On the other degree. Yeah, maybe I'm like those parents who are living vicariously through their kids as well. So it is it is how it is. I love it. I love it. Hearing it every time it makes me stop. I can't stop it until they finish talking. Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. That's so nice. I mean, I can relate to that. I've put Digby in my, just as it's halfway through the episode. I've got him going, you're listening to that being mum with my mom, Alison Newman. It's like, I couldn't have anyone else do it. I've got a friend of mine recorded it for me. She's like, got a beautiful voice really good. VoiceOver. And in the end, I thought, no offense, Danny. Sorry. It has to be Digby, because he's my child, you know, and I'm talking about monster. But I think you're right, it gives it gives this realism, it makes people accessible. And they're not just a voice that you hear, you know, through your headphones or in the car or whatever. They're an actual real person, you can feel the connections that they have. And yeah, that authenticity really comes through. And it gives you a taste into the sort of person they are, you know, that they're, I mean, obviously professional, but not professional enough to ignore the fact that they do have a life outside of what they're doing. I guess, if that's a way of Does that make sense? Yeah, look, I think you've touched on a really important thing there with the podcast, genre. Same with radio, but podcast is a bit different. Because we podcast, a listener has to seek it out. And actively say I want to listen to you. And you are right in their ears, Allison, every single episode. So there is an intimacy that builds from that. And the fact that you're also have your child I think slept it's like imagine if you've gone over to your place for dinner, they'll be there. And so you have got the adult time around the table. But there's also the meet and greet and the interruptions, you know, and that's all part of it. I've started doing that with my clients or talked about marketing, actually, instead of having end of year events, I am slowly it's going to take 50 years working through that, or groups of two or four to come to our makeshift cinema at home, I cook a meal. And then we all watch as a group, just a movie together. So we kept socialized with no talk of business allowed is wonderful. And it is that enmeshing of everything. It's, hey, this is life, you know, we're not these, because I think the big bad thing that happened with especially from what I can tell the sort of 50s 60s 70s and 80s, and probably even lingering with a bloke went off to this other professional world and was out there, and then had to come home and sort of like lower down to the mundane of family, which is a horrible dichotomy. I think we've moved beyond that. And I think it's taken a lot more gender balance or striving towards that. In a growing up, we're still not there. We're still miles away. But just the Yeah, you have to just accept that I can't go today. It's a kid sports day, or it's happened to me last week, girls had gastro and had to be home. So, you know, you just and that's going to dent into things. And I think clients who won't acknowledge that are assholes who are not showing any human respect. And one of the tenets of talked about marketing is that business is personal. It's humans, working for serving other humans. That's the that's what happens. And that means we are part of systems and the family is a system that we're part of. Hmm, I loved how you got so passionate, then I could see your point of view. I love it. Now Good on you. That it's so important. I think that's so true. Like I think back to my dad's generation, like he had an AI what happened? Exactly, I wasn't there. But you sort of see the flow on effects of it. And there wouldn't there would have been a massive separation between the the father's work life, his home life, his social life, even you know, when I when I was a kid, my dad grew up in Colorado, which is a little town probably 40 minutes away. We're really tiny town. And they had a real old traditional pub where you had the saloon bar, you know, the front bar. Women and children were never allowed in the front bar. It was like this rule, unspoken rule, but it was very well followed. So we'd go to the pub for tea, Dad would disappear. We'd fall asleep on the chairs in the, you know, the restaurant, you know, that's what happened. And one of the first times I ever went into the front bar, and I caught myself and went, hang on, I'm in the front but like it was just this weird feeling. I'm not allowed in the front. But, you know, as an adult, I think it wouldn't have even been my grandmother's funeral. You know, it was that I recently and I was like, Oh my gosh, and you think in that one generation how much things have changed? And I think a lot of that you talk about the gender balance I think that's true that you know, men have recognized that that's probably not ideal for the family unit and I think women have stepped up a bit and gone Hang on, we're not gonna sit out there in the heat in the lounge with the kids though. Right? You know, we're a family unit. This is how we're going to be but yeah, that just reminded me of and that was just in my dad's you know, when I when I was growing up how deep those roots are that you still had that oh, yeah, right back where it sits in my sister's wearing the front god oh good day Listen, I want to pick up you said something Woody, I think you nailed it. When you said it's the separation of the two parts of their life. And that's an important word, as opposed to an amalgamation. You know that people talk about work life balance, we can't have that unless it is that warts and all holistic you who brings stories and fatigue and being energized to both ends based on what's happening. I work from home, primarily. And so my girls get to see me worn out stressed, excited, you know, the whole bit, which may be good or bad. Maybe there was a benefit of being shielded from that? No, I don't think so. I think they, I want them to have an appreciation that life as an adult, is, can be pretty intense. And resilience, which is a theme that comes up a lot on this podcast is going to be one of the most invaluable things you can have in your toolkit. How you teach it, I don't know, but partly watching the ebbs and flows and knowing that it ebbs and flows. So it does go up and go down. There's a lot more down that rabbit hole. And I'm gonna continue with this topic. And I love I love talking about important stuff and meaningful stuff. So yeah, I don't mind that we were just gonna keep going. When I was growing up, I never saw that there was a bad side to being a parent, I just thought parents did their thing. And everything was fine. And they looked after us and and then obviously, when I realized for myself that it's an absolute cheat show. I've been I don't know whether I've done it on purpose, or I've just allowed it to happen, that my children say everything, pretty much. I know my mum, she came from a background where they were very protected from things. So she brought that into our own lives of, you know, hiding things from us not sharing bad things from us with us just to sort of shield us. But I just I, to a degree, I pretty much my kids know everything that's going on with me. And I unlike you said I don't know if that's good or bad. But I just think it's a reality of life. I don't I don't want my kids to grow up with this idea that everything's rosy and happy and things never go wrong. And then they get into adulthood and have the experience that I did where they went, Oh Christ. What's all this? You know? Absolutely. I look i i think the beautiful thing is the beautifully painful thing is, there's no right or wrong that I'm aware of no one's written this ultimate guide. That answers his question properly. And it I say ebbs and flows. Again, one generation has one experience and go here. I want to keep that bit and lose that bit too. We'll try and steer it this direction. Yeah, and I remember some sociological sociologist, or anthropologist, one or two, talking about how you have this pendulum swing of attitudes that go back and forth from generation to generation. The generation emerging now is tending not to drink alcohol or smoke because they've seen how bad that is from the previous ones, and then the next ones might be other way. I find that so interesting. I guess the thing that gnaws at me with our open approach is, when are you ready for the full throttle front row seat of being an adult? as well. So there are still things that rightly or wrongly, try to shield? Yeah, yeah. So it's like training wheels a little bit. Interestingly, this we, we, before our daughters, we had a stillborn child, little boy. And we hadn't told the girls. And it just, ah, it came up somewhere. I think it was walleyes. Why in the Riverland, with the girls, because of a conversation piece that someone led with. And I found out that my eldest had been told because by Naughty I didn't know this because she was filling out some government form. And AJ being acquisitive, Snoop saw it and said, What's this? And other ones? Okay, and it was just accepted. And, you know, who knows? I think we could make, or I had certainly made out to be something that could be more life shattering to them than might otherwise have been, I was just going to wait, I was going to hide it forever. But I was just waiting till there was levels of different maturity to discuss it, because at the time it was, it was destructive. Like it's just horrible to experience firsthand as the parent or one of the parents. But it's different, I suppose, with distance, and it's abstract. And where did that come from? Or that came from? How much trying to get this right, it is a messy process. And because I did read a lot of books, when Parenthood was on the horizon for the first time, and I don't know how helpful they were. Because it's like, if I had to write down the instructions on how to pour a glass of water, that's warm. I think if I hand wrote every consideration, that took into account judging the temperature, making sure the glass itself isn't too cold, you know, angle, all these sorts of things. Yeah, it would actually be overwhelming when it's really simple. So books about parenting can make it seem more of a mountain than it is. It's still a mountain part. I think we kind of have to take our own pathway up there somehow, and hopefully reach out to people who try who have trodden the path before, when we ask. Yes, that's a very good point. Yes. Yeah, cuz that's so true. Like everyone's experience, everyone's parenting, how they were parented. Every child is different, you know, there is no book that's going to tell you how to raise your actual particular job. It's possible that some of the books, some of the things and some of the books helped, I just can't place it. It could well have echoed around the subconscious. But it is a moment. What was for me a moment of blind, anxiety, panic and excitement, the moment we walked out of hospital with AJR firstborn and putting her in the car, realizing that I'm now responsible for someone who has no way of defending themselves. That was the most nerve wracking drive ever. Where it really became real because you couldn't just tag team and nurse that was it baby. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. So you've mentioned your wife a couple of times, no idea what to say A good question. She works in a field, I understand very little of which is systems analysis. And so basically, when a organization wants to revisit how they all these different data systems all work together, she is an analyst who gets into the weeds with that. But she is one of these people who is the translator between the business and what the business needs, and the geeky nerdy texts of whom I count many within my friends circle into a language that they understand because it is chalk and cheese. And so people like Nadia, make things happen that actually match what the business needs, as opposed to going off down rabbit holes, which is my gift. That's like she translates between the two worlds. Yeah, that's basic. I think that's it in a nutshell. Yeah. There you go. Good on it. So you talked before about the thing you said was 15 hours to eat for an episode, which is actually interesting. It's made me think about how this how long this takes me. When you've sort of and you said she understands that this is something you need to do, this is like your outlet. This is important. Does she have things on her side that she has to do that? It's like her outlet? We talked about that? You know, putting on your mask first? That sort of stuff? Yep. Netball coaching. Yeah, she is the coach of both of my daughter's netball teams has been for five years or so. So and that means at all the games, running the practice sessions, thinking about strategy, you know, watching other games, to get inspiration. You know, just dealing with the bureaucracy within the education department sometimes when you are trying to do your best to volunteer. And you know, not necessarily always being having that lovely, gift respected having to jump through different hoops. Not I'm not talking at the Child Protection stuff. But that's really important. That's going to happen. But there is some ridiculous bureaucracy that happens from time to time. Anyway, that aside, that's her. Xe just thrives on that. And because she's been an Ebola herself, her mum was a netballer. She's from Tintin era, which is a little town in South Australia. So she grew up in the country. Netball really was part of life. Oh, yeah. And has instilled that and now. Definitely the oldest. I mean, I think that's helped keep the girls excited and fascinated. They're both moving up through for trials for club teams and state teams. And AJ has just progressed on our way to an Olympic squad thing. So wow, it's just I mean, very early days, like really tiny step forward. But yeah, that's pretty awesome. Yeah. It's certainly there any dreams you had of going to the Olympics? Exactly. Because I know people would look at me and think oh, wow, you're really wiry sort of athletic build Steve. Or the opposite? Yeah. So no. So I think that certainly gives her some grounding outside of the nine to five. Yeah, that's awesome. That's good. I want to talk about you've got two daughters. Do you ever feel daunted and nervous and concerned or I don't know if they the words but bringing up to girls in the world that we're in in the world that is changing and becoming? What do you thoughts about that? Many faceted. It makes you well. Okay. Wow, you know how to ask the question. On one hand, I think the growing up many layers of society are doing in embracing the actual positive business benefits of diversity in leadership teams and teams general. The more that works its way through the less one's gender or ethnicity should be used as an exclusion factor. It means that if there are bastions left, which I'm sure there are where it's blokes, they will continue dissolving so that my daughters aren't repelled by those arbitrary divisions. So part of me is hopeful on that front. And look, heaven forbid, I'm, I would expect, and I see there's a lot of, interestingly, did the sums of the day in my marketing more than 8000 business people have been in my various workshops, and therefore I've done mentoring with them over the time, I would say, close to 90% of those would be women, often solopreneurs, or running small businesses. So in some ways, I hope through hearing stories about my clients, that if the girls have an idea of something they want to do, they do it themselves, they don't have to go through a system beholden to other people's opinions. Because the market doesn't seem to be as discriminatory the market doesn't care if it's a product or service that they want they want. It's it's the bat covering within systemic HR systems and our blokes clubs and, and what have where we get stimulated in progress on that front. We've done our best to well, we have we've done our best to be encouraging, of blocking out blowing away any senses of limit. Yeah. I think and got to, the girls get to meet all different sorts of people they wouldn't otherwise, thankfully, through my podcast, got them to mean lots of different people was just, I think part of what can trap us apart from systemic things that are happening in the society, self limiting things which come from not seeing other role models. And so reading or meeting people who have forged different pathways just goes on, it means it's not even a thought that I can't do X. So from that side, that's one thing, then you've got the threat of violence. Out there, and that is disconcerting in many levels. Because I, I have become aware in recent years of how even I'm not really a masculine guy, I've never actually been in a fight. But I don't, and I know, there are times when my hackles are up, walking around late at night, going back to a car from a theater show, in some places, practice, not often it's very rare. But I've been awakened in some of the deeper conversations I've had in the last 10 years that as a female in this society, that's a privilege that I've got not to have to be on guard a lot more permanently, like really aware of it. And so I have to acknowledge I've got blinkers on and it's just the nature of the bloody chromosomes are as given and the society that has built up around me so I don't know what to make of that one thing that only give that gives me a little bit of hope that it might well this is the external stuff then you've got the internal with domestic violence too. But if we look at externally, when you actually do methodical reflection on data, we are living in the safest time ever in human history. Which goes Whoa, you met Oh, hang on, hang on a minute, but statistically it really is. It doesn't mean it's I've got full heartedly saying that. Yeah, let's go off we go abandoned. So lazy, but comparatively, it is it when you actually hear I think it was I think pinker is the researcher who's done this. But I've heard really deep analysis of this, it's and it makes sense. And it also is why our girls go off all over the shop with their bikes, walking, catching buses. Because I was told by my cognitive science mate who did by survey Fanta, who made it made me sit down and push my face into this data and say, Hey, Mr. Murdoch, and his people want to drum up all the fear. But let's be realistic, when you look at what the real risks are, it is minuscule. And so if you give into that, you're robbing them of experiences. So there's that side. And then there's the What about when they're in a relationship with someone and behind closed doors. And I, I don't know, what I do know is hopefully picking up on cues, if there is any sense of trouble. And by blooming large in the life circle of my daughters, so that any potential spouses and other family members and friends are very aware that this is a switched on engaged, family. And this you're not being dismissed, because that is the figures on domestic violence. And murder is it's like that Ukraine thing we talked about? Yeah. So I can't throw the first stone and say, Hey, everyone, we're all being bad. We're not reflecting on Ukraine, because I'm not reflecting on this every day as much as I should, either. And this is back, eternal, crazy, balancing act that will never be perfected. So yeah, that's a long wrap. I'm in balance, really optimistic and looking forward to them just chewing up this world. I think the world needs both of my daughters. They both have amazing gifts to bring in. And I'm hoping it's not just dad wonder that saying that I'm looking at these people as humans, compared to all the humans I've met, and there's some dead set incredible power these girls have for good that they can extend apply to the world and to their their lives. So I am glass half full, despite all of that, but I'm just letting you know that I'm aware of the balls in that glass. Talk to me about the Adelaide Show podcast for people who haven't heard it. It's not about the Adelaide show. Just let's put that out there. First. It's not about the actual Adelaide show. It's a show about Adelaide. The Adelaide show is where he puts South Australian passion on center stage. So it because I'm a South Ozzy and from Adelaide. There's a couple of things. First of all, in 2013, it began well, there's a really bizarre story about how it began, which actually it was close to your part of the world, Allison. And I think look, I think it I think it's worth to sharing it briefly because it does give an insight into the seemingly unquenchable energy and drive that I've got for it. It was 2013. And I was at Chardonnay launch down in southeast South Australia, away from home again, running workshops. And just the so much stress was crushing me. I was I would have been happy to step off the planet. And were it not for having a three year old, a five year old and a partner. And I thought something's got to give here. Something's got to change. I need an expression outside of work because I haven't heard heritage my dad's workaholism. And so I do work 15 hours a day minimum. Like there's rare that that's less than that. And that's bordering on seven days a week and I feel Life was just filling out cardboard. And a friend had said to me, which would you be interested in? We were both angry that all this Twitter stuff was happening. Say Adelaide is boring because Adelaide as an Australian batch of jokes is considered the boring town, along with Canberra there, the two of them get there. And I had this realization, I said, Ah, Colin, we should do this. This is what I want to read, tap into my radio past and do something. And so with Colin long and Brett mountain, we created a podcast called another boring Thursday night in Adelaide. Because we wanted to meet this head on and stare down anyone who said Adelaide is boring. And I grew up as a band called red gum. And they had song called one more boring Thursday night in Adelaide, a tongue in cheek. Funny song. And so I know John Schuhmann. He's been on my podcast, he's a great bloke. And I said, Look, could we use the opening 30 seconds of that song as our theme song? And he said, Look, I'd love you to but I don't own the rights anymore. talk to these people in Sydney. And they said soy came $1,500 per year. Well, there's no way Nadia is going to I mean, she's lovely. But Brett is a singer songwriter. So he ran our own tunes on our own theme song. And so we started three guys. And at that point, it wasn't an interview focused program. It was it was actually a lot of fun. We would talk about different bits of Adelaide and South Australia. And we also had a thing called the the Adelaide visa segment, in which I would bring three samples of tweets in which people had used the word boring and Adelaide in a tweet. And we would sit in session as a visa counsel and discuss the pros and cons. And either they get away with it. They're making a good point, in which case combined with big stamping, they get a visa. And if they are not, we cancel their visa. And then we tweak this to people. And we would say you you have had your Adelaide visa rejected. Anyway, we had really one guy, tweet back say I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I love Adela. And he was actually the best right he was the head of the the Adelaide United Soccer fan club. And so what in our in our judgment. We had cited that saying you have a higher responsibility. Good luck getting in next time you travel interstate to see the team good luck getting back into South Australia. He was so apologetic. We then reversed that gave him his visa back. And so there's this bit. We created a bit of Hullabaloo, we got a little bit of media coverage about what we were doing. And and then back by episode 80. We did every week. In fact, the first five years of the podcast was weekly and did not miss a single week. By week 80. We just started to discuss we dealt with that. There wasn't much left of people saying Adelaide was boring. And we've moved towards more interview format. And we there is an opening coming up and the PR person said we'd love to invite you but the clients nervous about having another boring one another boring, the boring thing they didn't, you know, we've outgrown that. Let's call ourselves the Adelaide show, and rejiggered so now we're not trying to react against something negative, we're going full bore positive. Yeah. And so we've had that in our first guest was Paul Gordon, who's a social media lawyer. And the whole interview was about right. If I was part of the Royal Adelaide show, could I sue us for calling ourselves the Adelaide Show podcast? And so we had the whole legal discussion, in which he said there were no grounds so that we could go forward. And if any, if they made any moves against us, we could say well listen to episode 80. And it will save us all the legal fees. And we then ended up doing we got invited we got clutched to their bosom, we got invited into their world. And we had some amazing interviews with the Adelaide. So the Royal Adelaide show. And in fact, the river land trip was as a direct result of that the former president had invited us up to do a special bond and we went back we caught up with him while we were there. So it's just as long story short since then, would apisto episode at this time 357 And I just Look for South Australians who are passionately engaged in some sort of endeavor. They don't have to have any celebrity standing. Few do, they just need to be wanting to talk about the thing they care about? Whether it's doing magic, whether it's their Ukrainian hometown, whether it's the history of rabbits in Australia, you know, science, health, acting, you know, drama movies, you know, you name it, we have talked about nuclear physics. You know, we've covered everything. And it's just for me, it is perpetually propelled by my curiosity. I've just, I've just got that DNA makeup that I'm always just, you know. So and I can relate to that. Exactly. Wonderful. Love it. So it's a eclectic. And on the homepage at the Adelaide show.com. Today, you we've got the current episode is on front, but also on the right hand side is, there's about 12 or 13 different categories, so people can click through to choose a clutch of programs of a topic they care about, and probably a really heartening thing is as we speak. We are currently the holder of silver for best interview podcast in Australia. Ah, congratulation. That was Thank you. It was awesome. It was lovely. And, and I like that because it's judged by my it by peers, by professionals in the media, it's not just a popularity show. And because I think it's lovely, the I love the dynamic of an interview environment, whether it's at a dinner party or in a studio, wherever around the table. There's something about the asking questions, and then the listening to answers, and then picking up on something from that answer to ask another question. And then shifting topic, that I just love that and we don't get much of a chance to do that in the short bites we get in the rush of life, and certainly, in the mainstream media shows they've got 10 seconds is considered a long answer. And you never get to depth. Yes, yes. Whereas at least with my answers, you've got not only some depth, I hope, but also a cure for insomnia. If you're listening to this while your head is nestled on a pillow somewhere you do have a beautifully soothing voice. Diaper I look I so agree with that. And I feel like Australia used to have before the rise of this reality TV, we used to have really good quality what were they called? Ah, it's on the tip of my tongue but like not variety shows, but all those I mean, like shows were would be real people and they would have discussions and like Andrew Denton was is one of my favorite interviewers because he does that thing real asked his question. And like he said, wait for the answer. And then from that he'll find somebody else to talk about. And I love that and and Ray Martin gives me the absolute sheets because it's like literally reading off his little clipboard. This is my next question. No matter if the person just said something so groundbreaking It would change the world he just go. Right My next question is this like it never deviate from his plan? And I feel like yes, we've really lost and the time because everything has to be in short bites to keep people engaged. You know? I don't know we've we've lost that. I mean, the ABC still does a pretty good on shows like, like Australian story and things like that, where you delve into people. But that just that back and forth conversation and then maybe that's where podcasts are coming into their own. You know, maybe that's where things have changed a little bit, but I love conversation like i i saw I'm getting really warmed up now I'm shaking my fist. Go for it. I can see it. Oh, I I know there's a place for small talk because there's a lot of time in life necessarily, but I that it really irritates me. Like, I want to know about people I want to know what makes them tick and why they do what they do and the factors that influence them. And like, I don't know, I'm just indulging myself in this, this podcast world. And people listened to it and that's really nice, but I feel like it's like I love talking to people about proper stuff. Well, yes, that's how we craft craft meaning in life. Yeah. And I look there is a place for small talk because there is the that forms the little bonds between each other it sort of aligns ourselves but then to stay there is an impoverished experience whereas to use that to then propel deeper in Two topics will be great. I mean, my character Darren Hill next week is going to be the emcee some business awards. And they've have a networking period back 20 minutes. And he is going to give them some questions to start that networking. And they will be the most unexpected observed topics you could ever imagine. And my thinking there is we people clam up, because most of us, according to I think psychologists, who can tell us is actually worried about how we look at it dominates 95 plus percent of our attention. And so everyone's worried of what they look like, without realizing well, that means that no one's really worrying about what they look like, because everyone's worried about themselves. Yeah, they're to put the question forward in a networking event, people either bombastically say, hey, come and buy my thing. Or they sort of too nervous to do anything. But if they've been given permission by this stupidly crazy emcee to ask people, if you're a cat, you know, what kind of further would you prefer to have? And would you consider added I haven't even made I haven't been worked out yet. But it breaks the ice, because it's a little trick. I'm making them not look at each other, with everything being high stakes, but I'm saying, Hey, look over there. And while you're doing that, guess what? You're now in conversation? Yeah. And so yeah, that just breaks that ice. It's why little trick that I do with the Adelaide show. Mostly, not always, because sometimes I've got some pre recorded, it starts with the South Australian drink of the week. And what we have typically done when it's face to face, it's changed a bit the last couple of years. But typically, I asked the guest to bring a South Australian alcoholic beverage if they drink alcohol, yeah. To share, and so we drink that, how may I find out about why they chose this wine, and I do my bizarre wine tasting notes and all that sort of stuff. But what it's doing is it's that same trick, look over there. They're now not panicking about the interview. Plus the alcohols just lubricated things a little bit. Thank you very much. And I had a free drink. And there was a period there where there was this ongoing serial jealousy between guests, and they kept bringing more and more expensive bottles of wine until someone bought a Penfolds Grange. Fine, which is we're talking $650 A bottle, or even an Australian dollars. That's a lot for your American listeners. About $45 American but it was, you know, beautiful. It's and it was fun. And it's just that trick. I don't know how we got onto that. Now talking, yes, deep conversation. Sometimes it just takes that little bumper car to knock us out of being straight jacketed. And suddenly it's like, it's the pressures off. Yeah, that's it. We can play. Yeah. Yes. And that's when all the good things fly. All the good juicy stuff comes in. So you talked about D H there a little bit of share, how how did you get involved with comedy, and through the podcast. I was about throes to just before 2018. I entered the Australian Podcast Awards with Adelaide. So we went over for the awards. We didn't we were finalists for best news and current affairs podcast. But I got to meet Marie Morgan who ran the school of hard knocks, which was a comedy score. And a couple of months later, he said Steve, we're going to run a class in Adelaide, would you consider promoting it for us? And I said, What is this a stand up comedy course? Yeah, he said five nights. Glenn Nicholas will be the teacher now Glen Nicholas, many Australian listeners might remember on a fantastic so the ABC used to have called the big gig in the 90s which had the Doug Anthony all stars and all sorts of comedians. He had a character called pat a biscuit in which he dressed up as Patsy Bisco. Supposedly a a school kid at little children's Keep with a little Bongo. Bongo, yes, behind you behind you. Yes, he is hilarious. He was going to be the teacher. And so he said, the thing is you have four nights of working up and creating material. And on the fifth night, we have a performance that you invite friends and family, they pay tickets, I come along, and we put on a stand up so with a couple of other comedians as the main X. And I said, Look, what if you put me through it? And I will because it was about 600 bucks to do the course. And is, and I would cover it thinking, because I've always wanted to do it. It was the last bastion for me of pushing because I love talking. comedy was like, no safety net. And I thought our eldest asked, he'll say No, I said, Okay, you're on. So he called my bluff. Yeah. And I remember going to the first rehearsal. driving across town, you had to come with two minutes of Stand Up material, having never done it before. Glenn could get a bit of a feel for it. I could feel my pulse. In one of my eyebrows. As I was so nervous, the blood pressure was just shaking. So Mr. Hop in front of any crowd, all good was suddenly this ball of Wired, panic. Anyway, did it kind of got a laugh or two, and I'm not much and we're all just as bad as each other. And then Glenn just has the most masterful way of unpicking things and looking for their their strengths and suggesting this might not be an area forward, but this one. Anyway, long story short, did the opening night. It was hilarious, great fun, and got the bill, it was just nice to have it done, the thing I learned the most from it was structure. The key difference between someone who can make people laugh at the pub, and someone who's doing it professionally is the professional will make sure that the part of the punch line that delivers the punch is the final part of the sentence. So when we just tell a yarn around the pub will often deliver that, but there's a bit more of the sentence just to finish off. And we're in friendly company. So people sort of laugh, but it's so much more powerful when you go bang. And really apart from other stuff. That is the most fundamental thing that I've taught. So I did that. A few months later, they were going to do the course again in Melbourne, but filmed it for a TV show, which is now online. You can watch this on YouTube, it's called Is this thing on? And it's a six part reality TV show. Yes, the thing we hate daddy were different when you're in. Where they ran, Glenn was the teacher again. But they did a different structure was six days and nights. There were 10 of us. And they went through the course again. But each day there was a different comedian guest who was going to teach us something. So Eliot goblet is another person from the past. Jack Levis, his real name. He talked about short punch lines and being a bit absurd and also a number of different comedians. And that was fascinating to perform. At the end of that week, having been filmed every moment, there was a bit midway through ice working on material and I just had this moment of panic. All my confidence, shattered through the basement and disappeared. And I I went to see Glenn was doing a lunch break. I said Glenn Claver chat, and I said, Glenn, I can't do this. I have a fake. And I just remember it beautifully. And it was just he and I and he said I have directed huge names, actors around the country. Everyone experiences this. There's a little voice on your shoulder that's whispering in your ear and this one I want you to do turn your head to that voice and say to it back off. Back off. And he said because it's got no right to be there. So let's regroup. And sure enough it was just the most beautiful bond he and I had dear friends To this day, and when my shows I've done especially the professor, long sword shows, he was my director. And he just knows how to bring the gold to the surface. He sort of lay down a footpath. And he goes, Oh, there's a gold coin. There's a gold coin that any Wow. And so. So the comedy thing, that was how that happened. Yeah. And then that was just doing stand up. And then because in my marketing day work, I've done an MBA, I think MBAs have some value, but there's a lot of bank. They can be, they can be. And so the professor was developed as an outlet for this. Just poke fun at the whole MBA enterprise, because MBAs used to be a four year solid degree when they started that 100 years ago. And now you see them, hey, three month MBA, and it's just this shunting people through. So the professor took it all the way at the fringe a couple of years ago, and he had the lunchtime NBA, when you come for lunch, and leave with a degree. And, and it was quite hilarious. So So that's poking fun there. And Darren Hill is a new character who pokes fun at the ludicrous aspects of this whole social media, influencer phenomenon. He, he talks about, he's the one who stands behind to make the social media stars. In fact, he's given birth to more social influence social media influences, then Kris Jenner. And so, you know, he's, he's right there. And just takes that to that extreme. Yeah, yeah, he's really broad, and AKA, whereas the professor is much more, much more reflective, and sort of higher English. Yeah. I don't sure if I fully answered the question, but I can't remember what it was, it was about what prompted them. And that's how I got to these characters, how you got into quarantine, because I've got material from both of those strands of my marketing work. And I can poke them out in different directions, and have fun with them at the professor has just delivered. Its online now a 15 Min, I think it's a 13 minute MBA meditation that you can listen to, and He will guide you through a meditation. And it all started because I am actually doing a meditation course with Sam Harris at the moment, which is amazing. 10 minutes every day. And he starts off and then there's quiet. And then he comes on. And so with the professor, I just wanted I just had this idea to I want you to focus very closely and read something from Philip Kotler is marketing book. And then there's silence. And then there's little and he pretends that no one's heard this. And then he gives him something else. And then this little rattle of his tea cup because he doesn't quite get it. And then he just is. I just wanted to get that out of my system. Yeah. Because he's a Daughtery. He's like a Mr. Magoo. He, and there's quite this thing where Tuesday nights I have the faculty meeting in the school hot tub, and they're all nude. And it was bonding. And so he's just lives in. I guess I live in fantasy worlds. When I get into those characters. They're both on LinkedIn as you can follow these people on LinkedIn. I'm laughing like I love that Sebastian long sought on LinkedIn keeps getting these LinkedIn messages saying, hey, there's a professor job open at Flinders University, and very tempted to apply for one at some point. Geez, that is brilliant. That is that's a bit of Lera can mischief awesome. Yes, my goal was get exposed to all of this coming back to you yells, yes. Identity about how sorry, I'm gonna just have to go ask my three rowdy people out there who are playing table tennis just to keep it down. Sorry, Steve. is actually five of them out there. My oldest son's got two friends over. That's why it's so damn loud out there. All right, good. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm here all day. Listen, is it going hang on a moment? Really? All right. We've got so much time Fitzy isn't that the good thing about podcasts? You can press pause, and you can come back to it later. You know? Exactly. I love that. Because someone told me one time I had this really long episode. And someone told me I should make like to cut it into two. And I said, No, but that's up to people, like everyone's listening to this in a different environment, they might want to listen to it for that long. Well, they might want to come back to it later. So it's not up to me to decide for people. I just do a benevolent, benevolent dictator, a benevolent podcast, I haven't been able to. All right, Steve, that didn't have children? How did you your view of yourself? Or how you saw yourself, change or not change might not have I don't know, when you became a father, did anything change in my self identity, pre and post children? Look, it surely did. Subterranean leave, if I can just make up an adverb on the fly. Because I wasn't necessarily convinced of the parent enterprise as something, I kind of knew I had a societal and social responsibility to do this. Because I am prone to slipping into where evolutionary thinking from time to time, and understanding that, ultimately, I'm here, because the genes within me want and need to replicate to maintain their march of existence. And so I sort of have to go along the way. I mean, you can go way too far and be very reductionist in understanding life. But I'm aware of that that we need. Well, I need probably a bit strong, but yeah, that is the way of things. And it is actually noted. And I know, I knew that. It was, for me. A profound source of me, it gave meaning to my life, to be doing my tag team bit form the genes within me, which sounds very cold and like a James Bond villain. But there was that role, but I wasn't ready. I didn't feel ready. I didn't feel like a parent. Because parents are these different types of people who kind of have their shit together. And they eat they run things. And parents. They know what to do. And they just do stuff. So I wasn't there. And so it was late. I was late. I'm one of them. Let me just quickly do the I reckon I was close to 40. or there abouts. When I ventured into parenthood. I suppose we could say that given there's a 10 year age difference between Nadia and me. Nadia was still in what might be considered the Goldilocks zone, age wise for women. So this is dodging the question. No, I'm I'm trying to enter the question and finding the right entrance point. I just wasn't ready. And I didn't think I could. But at the same time, that there's a thing inside me that happens whenever I go to run a new workshop. So even the workshop you would have seen me do or any performance, you get to a point we say well, nothing can stop now we have to step out on that stage and just do it. And that was the way with which I approached parenthood. We just had to step on this way. So we had the unfortunate first step, which was heart rending. I remember driving back from the hospital to get a few things to take back after the baby had been removed and placed aside the body. Just screaming in tears on the phone to a couple of dear friends who were just you know, God sends we rebuild our world and not is very pragmatic person. And so right we're getting back onto this. See parent material. And so in the lead up to age as birth. The naming thing probably drew me in. Okay, so I am a huge fan of Leonard Cohen. I am his biggest fam, I am obsessed by the man. He was my absentee dad growing up. I had a dad but because I'd moved out of home very early, driving the highways late at night, his songs and concepts would be telling me stories. And he was my company. And I love his poetry. And so I convinced Nadia that the when we knew we were going to have a girl, I said, can I go and choose all the female names Leonard Cohen's used in all his written works, songs and poems, and put them in a poll and asked the world to vote on what our daughter's name would be. And so she crazily said yes, so I did this. And back, then we're talking 2008, there was a thing called pole daddy, which is ironic. Yeah. And so we put this up, we had 1000 votes. And the one on top was Alexandria. And thankfully, it was Alexandria, then Suzanne, and then Heather. And anyway, so I, that was me, I think, trying to connect my world of the poet reflector. Being in meshed with the stuff of life, the messy, bloody DNA of life. So that hooked me in. And I remember one thing very clearly. Alexandra was born, Nadia was taken to a room to sort of recover. And I was taken back into the room and there was AJ, in a little cot, wrapped up in that blanket the way they do so you get a good dose of claustrophobia right from the word go. And I was quietly getting my laptop out to do work. And just as it was about to open, I was struck by fear that the first thing AJ would hear was the Microsoft music when the computer opened, and I slammed the lid, I couldn't let that be the case. And so I reached into my bag and brought out the complete works of William Shakespeare as you do, as you do, and I went over by her, and I read a sonnet to her. So that making me that was the first thing that she heard. And then I opened up and I played Alexandra leaving, which is the Leonard Cohen song that she's named after. And they are the first two things apart from the doctors and nurses that she heard in her life. And I was just yeah, that was part of me getting in still very superficial, you know, haven't earned any dead points yet. I've earned my radio producer, journalist curator points. It was then being taken in and taught how to bathe AJ by the nurse, which was fear instilling this little thing just hardly bigger than your hand and you had to do this and it would squirm around and it had bones and flesh and stuff. And but then doing that more at home, changing nappies how quickly we forget what that was really like, but you just shut up and do it. And to be honest, although I tried to do my bits, I've been the workaholic and with Nadia having the chance to have some time off from work to to get she took the lead in that first year or two. And I my floor is that I think I am very aural based language based I needed a language connection to really deeply like so I was committed. Yeah, she i i love the fact that we let her was and was mainly me lobbying for this let her sleep in the bed between us even though all the books Oh, no, no, no, I'm not gonna smother my child I loved the only way I could feel less helpless is if I could be there as a human shield on one side while she slept, you know, so anything bad happen. And then once language happened, then it deepened and deepened and deepened. To the point that very early on from the dot for both of them. We would just, I started with rhyming. I wanted to have a lot of rhyming and I did a lot Have improvised theatre. So we're doing that, then we would make up songs all the time. And she got a little coffee, espresso machine toy one from someone, and we might put another coffee in the coffee machine, you know, and all that. And so as they became songs we sang. But even when Caitlin was later born, the same thing happened, we would go around the house, the three of us was making I would do the first songs get to the point where there's going to be a rhyming word. And they had to come up with that word. And they're the things I remember from that sort of level of connection. Still, I suppose. You could be saying there's still levels of superficiality there. I am the cook at home. So I to me, maybe it's selfish, but it's how I feel. I can be useful and needed. And I love it. It is there is some time I'm a slowest cook in the world. And there is every recipe is full of lies. When they say prep time. 20 minutes. Nothing is less than an hour and a half. I cannot rush. But, uh, maybe that's my little bit of downtime, but also the serving up. I remember when COVID first struck, that we do eat together as a family. I remember the girls, I was experimenting and pushing things out. And notice like, Oh, this is great dad. Really? This is a wow, it's like a little mini if anyone knows the castle, the movie The Castle, where the dad says, Jesus love. What's this? It's chicken. Oh, wow. You know? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Yeah, it's so satisfying. Yeah. So I felt part of it. So, you know, I'm there. I've done my I mean, it's, I can't claim to be fully over 50% of the job. But in meshed, I love them. You know, they're just love watching them grow as humans, and to be part of that it's a privilege to be in their little world. And then keep that balance. I can't be sucked in to be their friend, I wouldn't be friendly. But I am their dad. And then there's some beautiful communication that's happened since Sorry, I'll draw this to a close. But I remember back. If there was $1, there's a new drinking song for Alexis. Every time I say I'm sorry, this is going long. And it is this. She wrote on her because her birthday is the day before mine. So they sort of bonded that way. Show me a card. Think must have been a 13. So dead. I'm about to become a teenager. And there's going to be some changes happening in my body. And there are going to be some times when I am going to be hard to be around and hate you. But I want you to know that I love you deeply. Despite all of this. That is probably going to happen. As i Wow. That is a beaut human. Right. There may be some things happen right? Along the way. Yeah. To call a spade a spade like that, but in a gentle way. But just matter of fact, as well. Hey, you know, Saudis. Beautiful kids, you've got this lovely. Oh, good on. Yeah. And this thing like, I don't know. Sorry, I have a big stretch. You think about the stuff that you kids will remember. But I think about that a lot what my kids will remember from growing up. And you know, it's it's that stuff you talk about like this, the songs in the car in the three hour trip, everyone's sharing their songs, you know, these these things that you said a couple of times, you know, superficial but I think as humans like we have, we have to use something to get deeper. So there has to be something up here before we can get down there. So, you know, we don't we can't diminish that. What can be seen as superficial. Like you said before, about, you know, the small talk, it leads to something deeper, there's always that? I don't know, just seems to make sense. Yeah, you're right. And there were lots of fun times where AJ was reading her books and they had tippers and diggers and all the trap books, he loved them. So to get them to sleep. Sometimes when I was home with them, I'd pop them both in the car seats and we do driving around hunting for tippers and diggers and all this, why didn't lots of things I probably borrowed a bit too much oil from the planet in that pursuit, but it really suits them. And it was fun having those hands. I'm hoping that might pop up up in a memory somewhere. I'm the same, Alison, I wonder what will be remembered? Because it'll be the things that we probably don't expect. Yeah, yeah, it'll be, it'll be things that we saw as insignificant or Yes, flippant or whatever. There'll be the big things, because that's the stuff I remember, as a kid, like, Dad had these hid, I think he wanted to turn me into some sort of genius. And it kind of went the other way. He had these flash cards that had, like, big red sticker dots on them. And he would hold them up real quick, and get me to tell me, like estimate how many were on there. Right? Yes, actually, I do credit him for teaching how to estimate because I'm very good at estimating very quickly how many like there's a, I've won a lot of guests. How many things are in the jar? So maybe, oh, wow. But he, and I remember that. And I don't know, to him that he probably don't even remember that. But I really remember that they these big red dots coming at me, and they put it down. Good on him. Oh, my God, and I'm useless at math. I hate maths. Oh my god. Yeah, who knows, I just hope it's on the positive side of the ledger. That's the best you can hope for. There's something that makes them smile when I think of it. Although I did think to myself the other day that they'll have 357 plus episodes of the Adelaide sorry to listen to, if they want to, because they're a little bits of me that get, you know, exposed during those that they could piece together what he was like Oh, I love that. Do your daughters inspire you? In what you do? Do you find yourself sort of getting little sparks that you might not have got before? Because now you're a debt? Oh, wow. I would hope so. I would. I'm just trying. And that's really interesting, because I think like I want them to be proud of what I do. And there is a strong Geyser of intrinsic motivation that shooting out by desperate need to be on a microphone or at the front, which is a weakness and occur. I curse a blessing everything all wrapped into one. Because it's a back wood way of saying inspired. I want them to be like this I want. The people who have a greater chance of thriving in this world are the ones who can be comfortable stepping in front to lead a team. And it's good to be a good team person too. Don't get me wrong. But the world needs leaders and people who can help consolidate thinking and make it clear for others to be mapmakers as Seth Godin would say. And so in some ways by them seeing me do this. Here's an example early on. Andy and Terry, I think had the 13th floor Treehouse book and then the 26th floor treehouse. I think it's Andy and Terry and AJ as much as he loved these books love these books. Anyway, they were coming to Adelaide to launch a new book. And she, so I contacted their organizer and said, I've got a however old she was seven year old here, avid reader, who is part of me for the Adelaide Show podcast, and would like to interview them. And sure enough, I wangled it. And so we went to the Adelaide Oval where the big event was, and we got in first, we got to the secret room, and I held the microphone while she did her interview with them back and forth. And then we got taken in to where the launch was before anyone else right in the front row. And while were there, waiting, she was so excited and thrilled. I said, Darling, this is the fruit of me being comfortable enough to put my hand up and risk embarrassment by wanting to be that person that tells stories publicly or is asked questions and you've shown that to and This little thing we're having here, this little extra experience is the reward for that. You don't just get given this. And so who knows, maybe that might be something she remembers. But it's, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's, it's, I'd love to instill that in them that it should just be another thing you can do, as opposed to the research that says something like nine out of 10 people or even more at a funeral would rather be in the casket that actually speaking. There's no just talk entertainers tell a story think. Yeah, that reminds me, I said to my good that, like, it might surprise you. But I wasn't always this talkative? Oh, no, I used to be really, really nervous about talking to people and even lining up in shops, I used to be really nervous when I get to the front of the line, what I'd say and how I'd say it. And anyway, like, thank goodness got out of that. And I said to my son, we're going to see Constantino, the magician. Guy in May, Gambia in a few months, and he desperately wants to meet him. So I've done my thing and messaged and tried to contact him, whatever. So nothing's come over yet. But you know, that's what I do. I've never, I've got this thing that I'm never afraid to ask. Because if they say no, it's no skin off my nose. And you know, it's not I don't take anything personally. So beautiful. That took a lot of learning as well. But anyway, that's another story. So I said to him, when you're in the crowd, and they say, I need a volunteer, I said, always put your hand up, stand up and put your hand up. I said, because that's the only way you ever get chosen for things. As a kid, I'd think I really want to do that. But I'd sit there and hide and be scared, and no one's going to come up and go, Oh, you little Gilda that looks like you're scared. shitless. Let's get you on the stage. You know, so I've tried to teach my kids that if you want something, there is nothing wrong with saying that you want it and you can get it. You know? That's a very short way of I mean, obviously, there's a lot of hard work within certain things. But if you're in a situation where you want something, you stick your hand up and say I want this. Don't be like me when I was a kid. Yes, it's the it's the thing of ask. I wasn't knock on the door we opened asked and it will be given and somebody will seek and usually I find I don't often quote from scripture, because I've that's not part of my life anymore. But there are some profound things from the old writings that stick through. That's one of them. Unless you've asked, you'll never know. And see. And so that's that's a tough one ticket however, surprisingly tough. It shouldn't be. So I'm hoping Yeah. Yeah, but that thing you said earlier that quote about 95% of us so, uh, worried what everyone's thinking. Yes. You know, I remember when I first realized that, that that thing that you said afterwards, then that, that means none of us are worrying about each other, because we're all wearing about ourselves. Correct. And I had this moment of like, ah, oh, it was like this freeing thing, because I grew up as a performer on the stage being judged in a Stanford's. Right? So you put this kid who's got no confidence in anything and stick him on the stage and have people judge them and write things about them. That's a recipe for disaster, isn't it? So when I got out of that world, and realize that one person's opinion about me does not define my whole identity was life changing? It took a long time. But you know, it's given me all these ways of looking at things now that aren't defined by other people. Oh, I agree. It's when I do theater reviewing, I carry that responsibility, soberly, that people will read this. And there are some critics who make a name for themselves from being a servic and horrible. And that's not me, I will. I've got to honor the people who read my reviews or listen to them that if they buy a ticket based on what I've said that I can look them in the eye and things, but I tend to put it in the context that if you do like absurdist suspense fueled country music, then this is the show that you might like, whatever the context is, and then I share my thoughts within that lens, as opposed to judging it against Oklahoma. And there have been two occasions where I have contacted the organizers and say, and said, I would prefer not to write a review because anything I write I think will be harmful to your very younger, to your, your performers. And I think if we just left it as it was, it might be nicer, and they appreciated that fact. Because, you know, criticism Somebody have to learn to live with but it needs to be. I only feel I can do it because I trolled the boards for many years doing absurdist theater, I understand the the angst, the pain, the the price you pay for going out there. So I measure that. But the same time there are I mean, there's a, I've just turned down some tickets to a show that's coming up, because it's just going to make me vomit. I think it's just a cutesy approach to storytelling that I don't think we should be doing. And I just, I'd rather just not review it. That's very kind of you to think that way. You know, it's not. And I think a lot of the people that do judge people harshly and put out, you know, scathing things, it's, I think it says a lot about themselves personally, and a lot of egos involved in that, because it's more about what they're saying. And their words, rather than, like you said, putting things in context and giving an explanation. And, you know, you have to ensure if there is something that was a bit off, I will offer his little trick, oh, I have no one who hears this is going to be reviewed by me, but I'll say, intriguingly, it seems the directors gone for creating this kind of feeling. So I've, I have, I've turned what is the potential negative in and giving them the benefit of the doubt, so that I'm doing two things at once. They know, quietly, that I might have seen a little bit of a weakness here, but they haven't lost face. And the audience who read this potential audience will go are ik that's probably not the thing I want to see. So they'll get the message, but no one's lost face in it. So that's, and who knows, maybe that is post parenting. Steve, who has those sensibilities? That pre parenting Steve might not have? I don't know. But there is that key because we try not to just say that, Oh, this lovely, we try to be specific in things that we will praise, etc. Rather than just a blanket. thing, because I grew up being told by my mom or your top you should be this, you should be that and it we can it lowers the value, the potency of that phrase. Well, it's just never ending. Better than having someone on the other end of the spectrum though. Saying that I just got thinking, have you ever done any? I'm not telling you what to do. But I can imagine you doing some sort of skit where you're the you're the theater reviewer, and you're reviewing your children. Now to me, Oh, you've gotten out of bed a little bit early today. But that's okay. You know, like, you know what I feel like that's just flushed through my head. See, I love that. Because the other bit from the old scriptures that I quote often is that there is nothing new under the sun. Because there isn't really but there are new ways of slicing and dicing things. And often that comes from taking a duck out of water and putting it somewhere else. And that's great. To write a sort of review. Yeah, of the family day. So how does a theatre critic write in their diary each day? That's interesting. Yeah. I get the fish out of water. Yeah, not duck fish out of water because ducks do go out of water and they are quite comfortable. But yes, fish out of water. less so. That is, that is the thing about journalism that that I was taught from early aid, man bites dog. That's how you know a story is a story. Dog bites man. Who cares? The man but man bites dog. That's where there's a story. That's the unexpected. Yeah. And and I know that sexist language but it's from early 1900s that as I've used it in the original language I'm faced appreciate you putting that caveat of it can you share with us your your website? Where can everyone find you talked about marketing.com Is my marketing business. We are probably around the time this comes out. Launching a podcast called talking about marketing with my new business partner I'm David Olney, who's a, an amazing brain form Elektra, he's blind. He is just an all seeing, wise man. And we bounce off each other nicely. So we're going to share something which I hope is helpful. At the Adelaide show.com to the UNLV podcast app, look for the Adelaide show, you'll find us and talking about marketing soon, I also do some others and have fun. There's one called this medical life, which is a podcast I produced with Dr. Travis Brown, if you want have a chronic condition, and you'd love to dive deep into it, this is a podcast in which we go for one disease at a time. It's for doctors. But if you're the person with something like this, you get to go deep, and you hear how doctors talk to each other about this stuff, which is great. Yeah, that sounds fascinating. It's, it's, it's amazing. I'm just I'm just the the band who sews it together. Dr. Travis Brown is the brain. And our guests are amazing. I'm just there for the on the show, girl. So they're the main things, the characters, if you're on LinkedIn, I'd love you to follow them. Darren Hill. He's got a website, Darren hill.co. He's the social media whisperer. He's just ramping up. And then at at MBA school.com. Today you you'll find the MBA school of MBA credentials. That's where you have this wonderful free mindfulness meditation. 13 minutes of your life, you'll never get back. And he's he's quite fun there. I think they're the main things to share, at this point in time, really just done that your MBA school? Do you find that people think that that's real? If I had someone this week, ask what are the rates? What are the costs for attending your school? And I fessed up to that person or the person for whom I think, I think they're an overseas student. And I did want to lead them astray. If it was a local, I might have had more fun with them. But yes, I do. MBA news did a big story on us. When we had our MBA, lunchtime MBA that was a bit of fun. But Professor long sword chips into the occasional debate every now and then, his one mission in life is to make Philip Kotler who is one of the seminal lecturers and researchers in the realm of marketing that the textbook called Marketing is by Kotler at owl. And Professor long sword has kept nibbling at him, there's not been a bat yet even he's done a series of short videos, you know how you have food and wine pairings. He has book and textbook and wine pairings. So he paid marketing by Philip Kotler to the most atrocious South African wine you could imagine. And he said, The only reason that goes with this is because marketing is so dense and tiresome. It will put you asleep if you weren't drinking this horrible liquid from South Africa. That is a stringent and still nothing crickets. Oh, one days, one day, you gotta keep keep trying. That's his goal in the nicest possible way. Oh, good luck with that. Well, thank you so much for coming on stage. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been my pleasure, chatting with you and picking your brain and hearing all the awesome things that you've got to share. It's been so great. Thank you. Look, thank you very much. And thank you for welcoming me into this podcast because it is very overwhelming when I look back at all the different amazing women you've had on to go, Oh, my goodness, I hope there's something useful, helpful, fun, at least diverting, hopefully something at least diversional is a new word doesn't even exist. Until now. Thank you first time you've heard it here. I'll take care and thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you As someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Lena George US author S3 Ep79 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Lena George, an author from Baltimore USA and mom of one son. Lena has been creative her whole life, growing up in Pennsylvania she played guitar, violin and flute, as a youngster she would dictate books and stories for her mom to write and Lena would illustrate them. When she was 14 she started a Zine and published that for a while, and when In college studying visual arts Lena wrote a live journal blog. She moved to Baltimore in 2008. Lena was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager, She began a blog in 2014 and from this released her fiction work in 2019 under her own name Jaclyn Paul around this topic called Order from Chaos - The Everyday Grind of Staying Organised with Adult ADHD . Her writing about ADHD has appeared in ADDResources , ADHD Roller Coaster with Gina Pera and Houston Family Magazine . Lena's debut non fiction novel She's Not Home will be released in April this year, It explores the relationship between a mother and her daughter. shared grief and coming of age. She started writing the book in 2009, before she had a child, and put it away for a long time. When Lena came back to it, she wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective, after becoming a mother herself. The book is available for pre order now here Lena's website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Fair Play - Eve Rodsky This episode contains discussions around ADHD and road accident fatalities. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I, Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy love to enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creatives about the joys and issues they've encountered. Trying to be a mum and continue to create. You hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how they works, being influenced by mother, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the basic place, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Allison dotnet slash podcast, the blog, the traditional islands of the land and water, which his podcast is recorded on has been abandoned in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is George Lincoln is an author from Baltimore. And a mom of one son. Lena has been creative her whole life. Growing up in Pennsylvania. She played guitar, violin and flute. As a youngster she would dictate books and stories for him to write, and Lena would illustrate them. When she was 14 she started a zine and published that for a while. When in college while studying visual arts. Lena wrote a Live Journal blog. She moved to Baltimore in 2008 Lena was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager, she began a blog in 2014 and from base released her fiction in 2019. Under her own name, Jacqueline Lena George is in pain for nonfiction book is called the everyday grind of staying organized with adult ADHD, providing a sense of add resources, ADHD roller coaster, genius hero and Houston family medicine. Lane his debut nonfiction, she's not fine will be released in April this year. It explores the relationship between a mother and her daughter shared grief and coming of age. Lena started writing the book in 2009, before she had her son, and she put it away for a long time. When Lena came back to it, she wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective after becoming a mother herself. The book is available for pre order now. Links are in the show. This episode contains discussion around ADHD, and Brode accident fatalities. I hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks again for tuning in. Hi, Lena, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to welcome you. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I know. This is I'm excited. Well, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you based in America. So I'm in Baltimore. That's I mean, I've learned after moving here, that's the Mid Atlantic region. So just I'm originally from Pennsylvania, and associated more with the Northeast that way, but yeah, kind of in the middle of the right smack in the middle of the East Coast. Yeah, right. What state is that in? Maryland? Ah, you're the third person I've had on from Maryland. There's something Maryland. Sorry, I gotta say it right. Something going on with it part of the world at the wire. It's pretty cool. That's very funny, because it's not a big state. Yeah, there you go. Because yeah, I'm getting better with my geography. I know which side of the like the east or west of the big cities are on, but I'm getting better with my little other places. Oh, even people who live here are not so good at outside of their region. i It's very funny because when I meet people who are from the Western United States, I, I just I obviously know where the states are, but the size of them is they scale up as you as you go out there. And just sort of what's close to what and and I've been laughed at many times Such a big country. I mean, it's Yeah. It couldn't be blind for not knowing every inch of it. Yeah, it's impractical on many levels. Yeah. So what what brought you to that part of the world? You said you're from Pennsylvania originally? I am. So we came down here. So Pennsylvania and Maryland Shara border. And I live about two and a half, three hours away from most of my extended family. So we're not super far away. My husband got a job down here in 2007. And I was a little bit adrift. So I just came along. And now here we are quite some time later. Yeah. Oh, very good. So you're a writer. And I'm gonna ask you this name, you have a pen name of Lena George, how can we do that? So I just started that pen name for my fiction work. Because I am already a published nonfiction author. And I am somewhat widely known for my niche nonfiction work. And even though I always tell people do, do not order your books on Amazon, go to your local bookstore. The reality of it is, as a writer, you do have to think about the Amazon algorithm. And I created a pen name for my fiction. So I could keep things kind of cleanly delineated that I have to, you know, I'll have two catalogs of work nonfiction under my given name and fiction under my pen name, and there will be audience crossover. But I didn't want to him myself into kind of needing to have the same audience for both. And that's why I went back and forth on it a lot whether I should do the pen name. And eventually I just decided to do that and keep things simple. But yeah, so it's a little weird. I, it's my first book under that name is coming out in the spring. And I'm just starting to try to figure out oh, okay, so when I'm interacting with people in person, like how do I introduce myself, it's very especially locally here in Baltimore, because it is a small town. And I know a lot of people at this point, and they recognize me by my given name, so it gets a little bit more muddled around here then out in the wide world where no one Yeah. Oh, do you? Oh, yeah. It's it's makes sense, doesn't it to do it like that? And just iron out the little details of how you deal with certain people face to face. Yeah. Oh, yeah. How long have you been writing your whole life? Are you doing that as a kid, you're really creative. I think writing is the thing I've done the longest I have had many creative pursuits in my life. But even before I was a great like physically at writing, I, before I went to elementary school, even I remember sitting and I would dictate book your quote unquote, books, and stories to my mom, and she would write them into these construction paper books, and then I would illustrate them. Yeah, so I went to kindergarten having, you know, written some weird one page story about a toy ghost I had, and it escalated from from there. And I went through phases, I really thought my pursuit in life would be music, and then it wasn't and then I went to school for visual art. And that wasn't it either. And then I came back to writing so so you got back into writing. Can you tell us a little bit about the books that you've written? So I have one published book that has been out for a few years and it's called order from chaos. The everyday grind of staying organized with adult ADHD. So I started writing a blog years ago 20 In 2014 And I sort of spun what I had the work I had done there into the book. And now most I feel like a lot of people encounter me now via the book, the book is more popular than the blog ever was. And so Oh, I didn't know you also had a blog. Yeah, that's kind of where it started. But I yeah, that's been ironically, my my most full focus nonfiction work I've done when I was in ninth grade. So yeah, when I was 14, I started a zine. Which is maybe dating, dating myself a little bit. But I published that for a while and then went to college. And then we had Live Journal and I, you know, wrote a Live Journal blog. So I did a lot of like, personal experience writing. For myself, and then pretending it was for other people, too. But then I tried a few like more adult blogs, when I was out of college, and this is the one that stuck and really like it. My work started resonating with people. And that made it easier to stick to because I felt some, you know, accountability there to a community that I had built. And so that's, that's where my nonfiction writing mostly has been. For the past, I guess it's almost nine years now. Yeah. Right. So, obviously, based on your own experiences of having ADHD, so when were you diagnosed with ADHD? Um, well, so I, I guess I figured it out on my own when I was in high school. I, when I was 17, I asked a therapist to, like, do she did some sort of evaluation on the computer. And then she was like, Alright, so what do you want to do with this. And here, if you are a minor, to get a diagnosis and evaluation, it, you have to involve your teachers and your parents. And they have to fill out these questionnaires. And I had kind of hidden all of that away. And so at some point, if you are good enough at hiding your struggles, or if you are in an environment where there's a certain ethos around, like, what kind of struggles are okay? Or, or expected, or like everyone deals with that, or you just have to do this try harder. I just didn't want to involve anybody, because I was terrified of them. Just saying, There's nothing actually wrong with you. You just can't deal with your life like, but that's you. That's not something that we need to fill out a questionnaire about. And it wasn't until I was in my mid 20s, that I kind of hit a rock bottom point and pursued it again. So it was I was like, what the classic late diagnosis? You know. Looking back at my elementary school paperwork, like Yeah, okay, like one of the professionals in the room should have probably noticed this, but I was the gifted student. And I think it just slips by, if you're the gifted student, you then if you have behavioral or social problems, or if schoolwork is extra super hard, it can really mask the true struggle. And it's like, well, you need to learn how to control your behavior or, you know, apply yourself and your schoolwork. And, yeah, yeah, so it's it. That was kind of a long journey. That I guess it started in high school that I like, asked for something. But then it wasn't until I was like, well into homeownership and adulthood that came to a head. Yeah, right. It's almost like like I've had, I work in the early childhood education sector. So I've come across a lot of children with ADHD, and my own son has had some issues as well. So I can relate to what you're saying, from an educators point of view. So almost like they said, that, that you weren't a problem for them. Right. Your behavior was, you know, everything was they didn't have to do anything. You know, if it had been a child that was having issues with behavior or couldn't get their work done, then they would have had to do something, you know what I mean? Like it's, that's a horrible thing to say. They didn't think like that. But yeah, yeah, but it's like if you don't have to try I in school, then it masks a lot because I wasn't failing school because I could coast. And I certainly didn't challenge myself as much as I could have. But because I was very selective about where I was comfortable being challenged, my academics were always okay. And then the behavior stuff was just like, well, we need to address this as a behavior issue. But even I mean, that's 30 years ago, and even now I know, educators who say, Oh, yeah, we can't really do anything, intervention wise, if the academics aren't being affected, which I think is terrible, because I'm like, Oh, I wish that things would have gotten better. Because, I mean, because my son is the same way that his not he's not failing, grades wise, but in terms of his own, like, like mental health and happiness. If I hadn't known what to look for, then his teachers might have been in a position where, like, the academics aren't being affected. So we really can't push this with the parents. And, you know, it's, yeah, it makes me sad, because I'm like, a bunch of kids are still being like, left behind and thinking that they are just a problem. Yeah, and yeah, that's really horrible to hear, isn't it? Hmm. Because there's so many other things in life that are important, other than just having good schoolwork results, you know, like you said, the social Yeah. Yeah. There's more beyond school and work that makes us happy. And, yeah, with ADHD, it's that a lot of the focus is on. Well, how are you doing at work? How you doing at school by the numbers? And, you know, if that doesn't look terrible, then what are you complaining about? And well, okay, but yeah, it does make me sad that like things haven't come a little further than that, since I was, you know, my son's age for sure. So, tell me about this new book you've got coming out in your fiction section. Yeah. Lena, George, how'd you come up with that name, by the way? If you don't, sorry. Sorry, I'm, I have known people who have renamed themselves and adulthood. And I just didn't appreciate how hard it is to come up with a new name for oneself. So my maternal, paternal great grandfather, I guess. He wrote a novel that was never published. He died in 1941. So I absolutely never crossed paths with him. And also, it was not spoken about that he wrote fiction. I think my great grandmother, were very German in that way that she just did not speak about him. Really, I think it is, it was a painful topic. And she had really had to, like, get up by her bootstraps and be a single parent at a time when that was not the norm. And yeah, she did not like sit around and share reminiscing about him. But after my grandmother died in 2020, I was given this box that had this the hovel manuscript in it, and I was like, Oh, that's funny. He played the violin. And now I learned that he's a novelist. This is the person I apparently have the most in common with and I never knew but his first name was George so that's where the the last name is a is a nod to him and then I eventually I was trying to do to family names and it just wasn't working. So I just found I just like okay, well what's like a what's a German first name with a nice ring to it? And I came up with Lena and so that's yeah, Lina George, but it's a kind of an A in honor of For the family that I writers on both sides who like did not share their work. That's interesting, isn't it? Do you think it's like, sort of, of the time that they were just too busy working and having, you know, their life that you couldn't indulge in these other sort of things? I don't know. I don't maybe because my great grandfather, George, he worked in finance. And I, I get the idea that that kept him rather busy. So he didn't probably feel like he had a lot of time to sit around and dilly dally with this. But he also he did share his work with other people for feedback. There's like someone he wrote to who gave him you know, some very critical feedback in a letter, which is really funny to read. But then my grandmother on my mom's side, apparently wrote stories as well. And she would submit them. But then when she got rejection letters, she would just get rid of the stories. And she was like, oh, no, but do you know how many rejections some very, very famous authors got before? They made it? Don't throw it away? Yeah. But yeah, apparently she didn't keep her stories. And it was at the time typewriter. So you threw it out? It was just gone. Yeah. Which, you know, my mom is like, I can't believe she did that. Because she would love to be able to read them. But um, yeah. Hey, guy. I'm glad I asked you that question. The weird, the weird family history. Our. Yeah, but my grandmother. I mean, she wrote stories, but she also was, you know, she had four children. So that's another another person who probably did not have oodles of free time to write stories. And maybe that's what I don't know. I guess we'll never know why she got rid of them. But as you know, is it was it a perfectionistic thing? Or just a? Well, you know, I guess it's a waste of time, then. Yeah, there you go. So your walk is called? She's not home? Can you? I mean, obviously, don't give us any spoilers, because we want everyone to read it. How does what's the GST? So the gist is the so it's told from two perspectives. A mother and a daughter, and the daughter is 17. And it's, the book starts just before her senior homecoming dance in the fall at her high school. And 10 years prior to this, her older sister, her only sibling had died in a car accident on the night of Homecoming. So in the intervening years, her mother sort of transformed from, you know, the kind of the fun parent into this, she just did not address her grief around this and instead just became very controlling of the surviving child because she was terrified of experiencing a loss like this again. And so the fun carefree lifestyle didn't do it. Okay, you know, I need to become a different parent to this child, so that I like, there will never be an opportunity for her to be in a situation where something like this would occur. And part of that is her envisioning of how this accident happened. And the daughter is obviously feeling a bit suffocated by this at this point, and everything kind of comes to a head for them around this homecoming night. And the daughter discovers how things actually transpired for her sister. And she ends up running away from home. And the to the story is her running away and having to deal with this. Even though it's you can understand in the moment, the impulse to run away, it's still like the people left behind. She being a kid and rather impulsive, did not fully comprehend how many people would be deeply affected by this and that it actually is kind of a terrible thing to do, even if it's understandable. So it's, we see her kind of coping with the fallout from her choices. and having to decide like, well, then I thought that a fresh start would be so clean. It's not, but how do I rebuild my life and become a whole person again? And does that in any way include like reestablishing contact with my family? Like, can I do that? Do I have the courage to do that. And then meanwhile, the mom is is left to to reckon with, like, not only losing another child, but losing another child in a way that feels like very much on her. Yeah. Like, after all these years of trying so hard to insulate herself from this trauma recurring is like that. Those efforts have then, like, in a way brought it about the thing that she most feared. And you know, how, how can she actually like heal from that and figure out like, who she is in the world? It's almost like, the mother sort of had a self fulfilling prophecy that she sort of created this. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So is that just complete fiction? Or have you sort of, is your own your own influences? In there since you became a mother? It definitely I don't I don't know if I could have written. I don't know if i. So this story has been around quite a while I wrote the first draft of it in 2009. Before I had a child. Yeah. And I, you know, I shelved it for a long time. And when I came back to it, I actually wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective. And the issue had always been that she was a little bit two dimensional. And we didn't get to, like meet her early enough in the story, like from her in, in her own words. And once I wrote that, I mean, the book is a lot better now than I think I could have written it when I was younger. But the inspiration for it actually came from a what if line of thought involving my sister, because I have a sister who's significantly younger, and we grew up in a rural area with like, lots of hills and winding roads. And at least when I was a teenager, everybody drove all the time. And looking back on it as an adult, I'm like that was outlandish ly dangerous. How did our parents bear to let us drive around in cars that did not have safety features, like we have now. It just, it's mind boggling. But I you know, I know, several, former, you know, high school classmates who did not see their 21st birthday, who did not see their 18th birthday, you know, because of car accidents. So it's a very present thing. And I just went back to visit my dad recently. And it was the first time that I really thought about, like, what does it mean to grow up, surrounded by like, roadside memorials to people who have died very young. But my inspiration for writing this book in the first place was actually thinking about my sister and how, you know, I had a friend who died when we were 17 in a car accident, and it seemed very chancy to me that I was a good driver for a teenager. I was careful for a teenager. But even so, I mean, it's still a lot of it as fate. And you know, what would have happened if something had happened to me and like, how would my sisters growing up experience have been changed by that? And how would like she as a person be different if my absence had loomed so large? In our family? And yeah, but the family does not resemble my family at all. Yeah, I can relate to what you're saying about these roadside memorials. I live in this I was born in this area, I've always lived here and it's it's a rural slash sort of mean whether they say the way the biggest city and city are putting in quotes because we're not a city. We're a big town, outside of Adelaide, in my State of South Australia, and a lot of kids like there's not a lot to do so the kids go driving, right? And yeah, there's been a lot of accidents over the years use particularly boys, they seem to the boys getting the cars together and to know if they get each other on to take risks or whatever, but Oh, yeah, well, I think if you get the more young boys you get in a group. It's the collective decision making ability goes down. It's Yes, the boys are are. I've warned my he's nine. And I've worn my son about this already. I said, Look, if you're in a group, and it's all young boys, just bad decisions can happen. Be careful. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a lot of driving. And it's not all sober driving. Yeah, they, I mean, they say that kids aren't getting into as much old fashioned trouble anymore. Because they went to computers to when they fly. Yeah. Which is its own kind of risk factor. You know? Yeah. If I remember growing up, dad would always he was my dad's from this area, too. He's from an even smaller town. And he would like say, don't ever get in the car with anyone don't get in the car with boys like because I think he knew, because they've done it himself. But yeah, there's a real Yeah, sure of it. But you're right. I think yeah, it's definitely it's shifting because yeah, of this online world. They're, they're sitting at home playing fortnight or something instead of being together, but I don't know. Different. Yeah. But ya know, I can definitely relate to that. Yeah. So you're talking about your son, if you've just got the one child? Yeah, it was just just him. Yep. So he's nine. Now. The? Yeah. So you started the first draft before he was born. And then you kept writing? In my face, you know, there's additions. So how we, when it came time to write, were you just like up all night? Or like, early in the morning? Like, how did you physically fit in your time to write. So I'm not so good at that there are people who will get up at five o'clock in the morning, there's on Twitter, I think for a while there was a 5am writers club hashtag that a lot of and a lot of them are parents who get up in for the hour before their kids woke up, they would write. And there I have a author friend who is a real night owl, and always up until you know, midnight or whatever, writing. And I just am not good at that at all. I'm like an after lunch writer. So that definitely became very challenging when I especially when he was much smaller. And now. I mean, he's, sometimes he wants to hang out with me, but like, often not really. He has his own stuff he wants to do. But, you know, yeah, like naptime. I would get a little bit in. And then at the time, my husband had a job, where he was gone for like the whole day, he would leave after breakfast and come home after I went to bed. But then he would like build up extra Lake comp hours at work and have to take some time off eventually. So my dad's family has this little beach bungalow, and I would go and just hang out there for a few days and just, you know, write a lot and make a lot of progress. And then that makes it easier to do the like naptime segments. But yeah, I'm still that way. I'm still an after lunch writer. That's like when my brain does it best. But it did. Like when he was smaller, it made it a little bit challenging. And I don't know if there had been more than one of him. I might have had to I might have had to learn how to write earlier late. If I want to get it done. Yeah. So were you after he was born? Like in those early stages, we were you able to write them? Like did you find that that was important for you to still have something for yourself? Or was it just like, not even on your radar? I was I think even from the beginning I was thinking, okay, when am I going to phase it back in before he was born? So I quit my job like a couple months before he was born to finish the book that I was working on and you know, get do things for myself because I knew that that was going to be more difficult, but I also remember saying to someone, yeah, I'm thinking I'll take Get a couple of weeks totally off. And then, you know, I'll like get get back into it. And now I tell people, if they're expecting their first I'm like, Alright, so this is what I thought was gonna happen. And it is so absurd, I feel embarrassed even saying it now, don't expect that of yourself at all, like the first three months are like, just don't even, it's, it'll just be a black hole in your memory. And then the first year actually is like really hard. And then it starts to get a little easier. But it's so the first year was that was a tricky negotiation. Because and I was I was kind of, like full time, parent, but I was still trying to, like wedge the writing work in. And it sometimes was not successful. And it's just, as soon as I guess, when my son was two, he started going to preschool two days a week. And then three, he went three days a week, and now he's in school five days a week. And I can have a much more like, adult schedule. But ya know, but it was hard. Because I was home, I wasn't making money off of my writing, but I was still doing it. And so the the really like full time stay at home parents in my circle, would always have stuff going on, like, Oh, we're going to the storytime today. You know, there'd be something on the agenda every single day. And I just really could not manage that. Because I wouldn't have had any time to like, do work on my stuff. Yep. And so I kind of felt bad a little bit and, you know, caught between two worlds because I wasn't like, I didn't fit in with the working parents and I did not fit in necessarily the like, full time. stay at home parents. Yeah, and I still don't but that's all right. All right, differently prepared. Yeah, exactly. But the at the time when he was in the first and second years of his life, it was kind of a weird landscape. Because I yeah, I felt kind of alone in that. No Man's Land. of you know, I wasn't Yeah, I wasn't beholden to clients or an employer. But I was still trying to, like, keep momentum on my own projects, because I felt like I needed to do them. And so I just like, No, I can't, I can't go to a different storytime every day. I can't just drop everything and go to the aquarium. And know if my kid would have wanted that but. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. You mentioned there about the writing. And at that point, not making money from it? Was that something that sort of was a bit of an internal conflict for you at that stage? Yeah, I, I, I definitely grew up with and still kind of have to do battle with in my head the idea that if, if you're going to demand time and space for something that you're doing like that, the money kind of legitimizes it. And, you know, my book has been pretty successful. And I've tried to be careful with the way I think about that, because it's like, well, no, but it's not. It's not worthwhile because it it made me a certain level of income. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's worthwhile because it it had an impact on people's lives. And it's important and I thought it was necessary for me personally to do. But it's yeah, it has been challenging. And I think it's over the years to I think my husband and I have under like had much more of an understanding than we had at the beginning about why it is important for me to do my work. And, and I've also tried not to put pressure on myself. have to, like make money with it because that's when I start get tempted to, oh, maybe I should like get some extra like freelance work or this that and like pad my income a little bit. But that's taking time away from the sort of career projects that I shouldn't be working on. And there's no reason that I need to be making, like, X number of dollars every month, it just is not even before. Before kids, my husband was complaining about my job. And he said, you know, you don't have to work like, we could survive if you didn't work. So if you want to just like if the job is bothering you that much, like just just quit and like work on your writing, and do that, and see where that takes you. And I was like, No, I need to have a job. What are you talking about? Looking back, I'm like, why? Like I was being underpaid at that job. And I should have just quit and like, pursued my writing earlier. I didn't feel like I had to, I didn't feel like I had the freedom to do that until I became a parent. And that was kind of my reason, like, oh, well, I don't have to have a job. Because, you know, economically, it makes sense for me not to have a job. While you know, the baby is small, and then I can like also work on my writing that I wanted to do. And oh, but if I would have done it sooner, like that kind of thing. But ya know, it is it's tricky. And it's, yeah, we don't live a lavish lifestyle. So I have as I have a lot of leeway with my work, and I don't have a huge amount of pressure to hit, like an income target. And so, you know, whatever I can pay myself is good. But I think the pressure is like all from me. It's not from Yeah, so I feel like that was my music because I don't earn very much at all for my music, and it cost me a lot to make something that I really, really love doing. I wouldn't be able to not do it. So it's like I don't know, my husband's a financial advisor. So it makes life a bit tricky. Sometimes he reminds me What's ironically, I'm, I've been our homes like financial manager for as long as we've been a household because my husband has no, he has no interest in any of that. And so he just, you know, it's, it's funny, and but like, wow, you know, I'm earning my keep by just me like making sure the money goes where it's supposed to win. But it's, yeah, it is. It's not always practical. But I was just reading this book called fair play by Yves Brodsky. And I got to this chapter that was, I think the title, the chapter was reclaim your right to be interesting. And it was all about how, you know, when women become mothers, they often just allow that to like subsume their whole identity. And whoever is expecting us to do that, no one is happy with the results when we are not doing the things anymore that like make us interesting to ourselves, let alone anyone else and that she had asked all these men, you know, can you say, Can you name something? A way that you are proud of your wife. And a lot of them would say, wish she's a wonderful mother or he I don't know what we would do without her. She keeps everything together? And she said no, no, no. But something about her that you are proud of external to what she's doing for you. And then so many of them had nothing. They couldn't name anything that they were proud of their partner for. That didn't revolve around domestic responsibilities. And I say oh, that's That's so sad. And I realized you it hasn't always we haven't always been in complete agreement about how each of our time should be divvied up here, but I know you know, my husband says all the all the time is, uh, you know, Oh, I'm so proud of you. Like you're doing these like really impressive things. And, you know, I feel like what am it I'm just going and like by I'm writing, as I know, that's cool too. But you know that, that it's, I didn't mean to do do it for that reason. But I, as I read that chapter, I was like, oh, that's what we did, though, is that we made room for me to keep doing my creative work. But that's the thing that sort of makes me who I am and makes my my life interesting. And, you know, if I'm not, if I'm not doing it, I'm not really showing up as an ideal person to live with. I can relate to that. Yeah, that's what I'm, I don't think of it as like taking resources away from your family, because you need to invest some resources in your own, you know, intellectual sustenance, or else, it's just, you're not going to be showing up as the person that you want to be eventually. I couldn't agree with that more. That's, that's, that has put it so well, I'm taking that quote. And you're gonna hear that quote, In your introduction? Because that is spot on. Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel that way with your son? I mean, he's nine. So he, you know, he'd be aware of what mom does. Do you feel like that's important that he sees you as more than just want to say just mum, because we never just mom, but you know what I mean? Yeah, no, that's very important to me. And even before he was born, I, I wrote down somewhere, I would say, I want him. I want him to see me, as you know, a parent who does who like achieves things. And who wants things for themselves and who does something. And I, yeah, and I, even when he was very small, and I was doing less of my own work, I started to realize how important to me it was for, for him to see that. And not just see me like keeping the house and my husband going out and doing things and having an interesting job that he went to. And then I don't know, I would, I was a child of two working parents. And I just remember seeing my mom worked so hard, and she still does, like where she's like, one of the hardest working people I know. And she, you know, she would dabble in things, you know, crafts and stuff that she did just for herself. But I remember as a kid, you know, wishing that she had like, there was more space for her to do things like that, or what? Even when I was a kid, obviously no kid ever asked to say, Mom, what did you actually want to do? Before you had a child, or, you know if you could have had any career because she I mean, she worked at this store. And you know, did I think that her dream in life was to like work at the store. Yeah, that's what she ended up doing. And like, we all have something we ended up doing. Like I didn't become like a famous musician as I planned, either. But yeah, it's interesting, even as a kid, and especially after my sister was born, and she was working like an overnight shift, and she would come home and like, take a little like, hour nap and then take my sister to preschool and like, go back to work. And even as a selfish teenager, I was like, how is she doing this? Like, how does she how is this like, survivable for her? And I mean, I think Mountain Dew was the answer. When I asked her she's like I drink a lot of Mountain Dew. but I just I wanted, because I had the privilege to do so. And I was aware even as a young person that my own mother did not have as much privilege as I have to pursue something that like, I alone could not live off of my, like, my contributions to our household are not like, paying the mortgage and buying the groceries. But I, yeah, I like I wanted my son to see that. I have, you know, an identity, and aspirations and things that I am doing. Because I think it's a lot also to put on a child. If they are, like, everything you have going on. It's just, it just feels like maybe that's a maybe that's a like a heavy thing. Like, if, if I am the thing that my parents is like living through, you know, what does that what expectations does that put on me and like, how I enjoy and experience my life? And yeah, you know, as opposed to if we are to humans who are very much enmeshed in each and each other's existence. But also, like, it's, yeah, when I, when I was younger, I had some relationships where I just did not realize that you should always have something else going for your own, like mental stability, like you shouldn't put all of your eggs in one relational basket, you know, because stuff falls apart. And you know, it's, if your kid is having a hard time. And that's hard time for you, like, having something to turn to. Hmm. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So that if, if I'm having a big parenting struggle, you know, hopefully, I'm not also having a big riding struggle. But even if I am, it's the way out of those struggles is very different. And the amount of control I have over the resolution of those struggles is very different. So it's definitely a little bit of a balancing thing. Yeah, I think even Yeah, even before kids are involved, or even if they're not involved, I think it's so important for, for couples to have something that that isn't each other. Something they can go and do by themselves. Because we all need space, you know, we all have to Oh, yeah, have to have time align and do things we enjoy and reset, spend time with other people, and then we can come back fresh and, you know, give each other time to miss each other. You know, we're not in each other's pockets all day long. Oh, we are, especially now that I mean, we've been both working from home since 2020. So if you don't have something else going on, I feel like that's a that's a problem. But yeah, my mom always told me that when I was I was as a child very a I get very attached to like one best friend. And then, you know, I when I was in high school, I had, you know, boyfriend and so then like, I focused all my energy on that. And my mom always told me, she's like, Yeah, this is you. You never know what's going to happen. And you should never like, just have one person. Because what if you get into a fight, then you're just alone, you know? And, but it's, it's very true that it's, yeah, like, even without kids. It's too it's too much on one person to make you know, this relationship, like the thing I have going on. Yeah, it's, yeah, the ability to like leave and come back. And, you know, my, I guess my parents set an example of that, for me, because they like their extracurricular activities outside the house. We're, I'm trying to think if any of them were like things they did together. I'm not sure they were. Yeah. That, you know, my mom had stuff that she did. She like, did bowling and you know, my dad would go on golf trips with his friends. But yeah, it's, you know, they didn't. They didn't feel like oh, boy, I have to include you. Yes. So, yeah, that's awesome. That's it. It's very important. We call it mum guilt, mom guilt, mommy guilt, whatever you want to call it. How do you feel about that? Do you? Do you resonate with that at all? Or something you don't even? Not even on your radar? Oh, it's definitely on the radar. Yeah, so when my son was very small, he did not really get upset when I would leave to go, you know, if I went to the beach for three, four days to write, he was fine. And I, I'm trying to think when it was it, it's like the, just the past maybe two years, I feel like he's become much more attached to me. And started to develop a very different relationship with his dad than he has with me, which makes sense because like, we're very different people that he gets very different things from. But he it also means that he like actively, like, vocally misses me when I go away. And he'll send me messages from his iPad. It's like, I miss you so much with like, the crying face emoji and like, and he'll, you know, he'll be really sad. And I've, like, I feel, you know, what, it's hard. Because then even before when he wouldn't get that sad, even though you know, right before, it was like, the day that I was leaving, I would always feel guilty. Like, is this? Like, should I really be doing this? You know, is it really worth all this to like, leave my kid behind. And now, you know, now that he's older as I go, I'll miss you so much. And it's very sweet. But it's also it plays into that guilt of, like, is this like, really? Okay, for and in logically, I'm like, of course it is. Because he needs to learn how to, this is like a human experiences, like people go away, and we miss them, and they come back, and we're happy to see them. And that's a very normal and healthy part of existence. And someone should have told me that and said, Please, like, don't miss out on the opportunity to study abroad in college, just because you don't want to, like, miss someone that you're dating. Like. That's, that's not acceptable. But, um, yeah, so of course, I know that it's like a developmental thing. That's good, you know, for him to learn that I will leave and then also come back. And that is, that is okay. And we can all survive. But yeah, it is, especially if he's like, going through a tough time. Where, you know, maybe he's been like arguing with his dad, or like, he got in trouble in school or something. And he's feeling extra, like needy of the, like, emotional, like, sit around and talk support that he comes to me for, you know, then I feel extra because I'm like, Oh, this is a terrible time to be leaving him. Like, why am I leaving him now? But, yeah, it's so it's hard. And then when, at the beginning of at the beginning of this year, I worked a lot to do developmental editing on this book that's coming out in the spring, and I didn't pay attention to my own social life or my family or anything. It was it was attractive as a dark time. But he like basically organized his own birthday party and like, set everything up outside and I felt a little bad because I was like, oh, no, you know, I didn't even like, I didn't even get it together to help my child. Like, just put tape on me. He's like, carrying the folding chairs outside. Yeah, so it definitely I adapt honestly feel it. And even though he like, thinks it's very cool that I'm an author, I think he thinks that authors are like, famous and make a lot of money. Yes, I want to be a writer when I grow up too. And I was like, Well, if you're doing it for the money, I'm, I'll tell you right now. That's, that's not the way but yeah, so like he thinks it's very, very cool. But I still do like, especially when I go away. Yeah, if I travel to like, I do a writing retreat with a friend every year, even if I just go for a couple days to the beach to to catch up. Yeah, it's like, it's like, right before I leave is when it's the worst. Yes. And I just have that like, avalanche of self doubt. That's like, but like, I should be here for him. And, you know, always sad and. But and then do you tell yourself that's not true? Yeah, I just tried to tell myself. No, that's, and of course, my husband says he'll be fine. It's fine. Like, he'll like when you leave, then he'll just like, you're gone. So it's not like you're leaving. It's you're already gone. And then he just will find others. He'll find stuff to do. And I'll be fine. Sorry. Okay. Usually, yeah. Oh, yeah. What sort of music are you doing? So my, when I was a kid, I was involved in a lot of community groups, my favorite was pit orchestra for musicals, operas, and stuff. That was a lot of fun. And I did some chamber music, which was also fun. And I plan to go to school for it until I didn't. And then was that violin or cello what we've learned. So I started on the violin, and I picked up the flute in fourth grade. And that was where I had the most aptitude. It's hard to find a place for yourself as a flute player sometimes. So I played violin, in some groups that were looking to fill in a big violin section, and if I actually had to be really good, that's when I got the flute I, you know, for orchestra or band or something needed someone to fill in for a concert, I would just like kind of drop in for the dress rehearsal and play the concert the next day and have a good time. I could do that on the flute. I could not do that on any other instrument for sure. Yeah. But it was it was a ton of fun. I miss it a lot. Doing that stuff. But yeah, do you play it oh, now just for fun. I haven't in a while because it's a the flute is really a group instrument as far as I'm concerned. And when I moved down here, I did not have a group I didn't I wasn't plugged into all the music community people. I no longer had a community where people would just kind of call me and say that they needed someone. And I didn't know quite how to find that. I'm not the most outgoing person anyone has ever met. So I kind of fell out of it. And then I got a little rusty and I got sad about that. And so now I sort of dabble with the piano and the guitar because they're solitary, more so or they can be but I would love to get back into it. I'm actually looking to scale back some of my other volunteer responsibilities so that I can go back to that again, because it was something that was very nourishing to me at one point in my life and it feels wasteful. It feels wasteful to have a like an outsize ability with something thing and then just to not do anything with it. And I know that's not always the best way to think about stuff but it you know, it's in the back of my head sometimes. Yeah, that was the thing that was the thing you were really good at and be it just didn't do it anymore. Why not? Well, like Yeah, yeah, but no. Yeah, you never do you know, and I I did you know post something online in the spring just to see if anybody had suggestions and I got a whole list. And so I figure when I'm feeling bold and brave, and I've, you know, quit a couple of other things that I need to pass on so you said your books coming out in spring? So what month what month? Is that? So it's April 25. Is the launch date? Yep. April 20. We have that's like our, you know, how you have like Veterans Day or something like that. What do you have? Not Memorial Day? What's your memorial Days in May? Yeah. Veterans Day is in November. Yeah. Okay, we have this that our Anzac days kind of version of that we remember the people that went to war in the First World War. So yeah, 25th. There you go. I won't forget that date. That's important that whereabouts will people be able to get your book from when it comes out? Well, so it's actually, I'm just about to launch into the shameless self promotion phase of things. That's going to be really hitting in January. That's the most uncomfortable part, I think of being an introverted artist of any kind. But it is actually available for preorder now. Yeah, so it's on Amazon. And there's your if you go on indie bound, you can get it I always tell people to get it from the independent bookstore. I know some people buy it on Amazon anyway. But the the local bookstore is where it's at. But then it'll be Yeah, it'll it should be available in ebook to Apple books and can and Kindle. But yeah, I can, I can give a link that has all of that in there. That'd be great. Even though it's the the really like heavy duty promotion is still you know, few weeks, maybe a month away the the preorder links are up and an active and testing. So I hesitate to ask then is there another book in your, in your future? So that's, yeah, there is there's more than one actually. And that's been my big struggle. This year, is getting this one is done. And I now have two or three books that are waiting to be drafted and unfinished. And I don't have anything in between. And it's like having children with a huge age gap. Between them, it's, it's a little disorienting, and you know, it's because 2020 everything shut down. And we had a year and a half I think of virtual school. You know, for which I was the point person. Yeah, so I really like the deep dark days of the pandemic and virtual school time. I did not do intensive like writing projects at all. And because it just was not it wasn't possible. Yeah, I know it was for some people it was was not for me. And I did you know my little podcast for my Patreon people and I did blog posts. But you know, I books were not getting written during like virtual school and trying to figure out how to get like canola oil on toilet paper, it just the in terms of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we were really stuck at the base for a long time. But now this year, I have come out of that I've had a lot more time to work. And it's but it is very difficult to come to terms with the work that didn't happen during that time. Because that work that didn't happen means that I don't have books that are well into the editing phase now that I've I'm like, Ah, I have to you know, really kick it into high gear and draft up these books and get them you know, somewhere. But yeah, but it was a little demoralizing for a moment. And it still is sometimes. Just just how much time I lost. And I'm sure many, many parents in my similar situation. Have that. Yeah, it's like, your, your thing had to just completely stop so that your children's things could happen. Yeah. And just that we were all all of us here all the time. Yeah, yeah. So the books, you've got your, in your head that are going to happen, are they fiction or nonfiction ones? So I have my next novel, pretty well planned out. And it's just a matter of drafting it. I've never had quite so much a plan before. I mean, it's a very loose plan, because I don't, I'm not a heavy outliner or planner for fiction. And nonfiction, I have an essay collection that I've been working on. That's my, my next two nonfiction books are going to be much less prescriptive than, than the first and much more like personal experience writing like memoir style. Because that's a lot of people seem to have connected with my writing makes you feel seen. Yeah. And to have an experience similar to their own, like, articulated in a certain way. And so I'm excited to really, like lean into that. Yeah. It sounds good, to be very valuable, you know, people feel like what they're going through is legitimate, I guess. And you talked about that community that you've sort of built around your first book. Yeah, yeah. So important. A lot of people have written and said, you know, thank you for putting this out there. And I thought that I was the only one who had this experience. And, you know, it's reassuring to know that it's not just me. So good on Yeah. Because it can be quite daunting to sort of share like that, to put it all out there. And did you have moments like that when you're writing the book, you're thinking or do I? How much of this do I want to share? I suppose, or are you just passionate about getting it all out there. So as a nonfiction writer, I, I don't have a whole lot of a filter. I although I will say some of my most successful writing has been the stuff I was most afraid to put out there. So that kind of says something. I actually feel a lot more anxious about putting my not my fiction out into the world, which is an interesting thing. I think it's just because I know not everyone's gonna like me. And so as a nonfiction writer, you know, if people don't, this is who I am. And if it doesn't resonate with people, or they, they don't like, they don't like me or my take on the world, then it's, in some ways easier for me to just be like, okay, like, really, I've, I've never been for everyone. And I don't need to be the likeable character in your story, either. So that's okay. A lot of people are responding to it. Yeah, but fiction and something that's entirely your own creation. It's, it does feel very different. Because it's, yeah, it's something that I created specifically to resonate with the most people possible. But even so, if you've ever been in a book club, it no book is for everyone. Yeah, I kind of feel like that. Like, we've, in general, like, I mean, I love I love and respect every artist that I meet because of what they're doing, just because they're doing the thing that they love, and they getting it out there. But I don't necessarily resonate with every kind of art, you know, and same with music, ya know? And I think that's fine. That's what makes us human and different. We're all different. And that's fine either. That's, yeah, that's completely normal. Yeah, that's resonating with someone it's, you know, it's and but it is interesting because I it occurred to me at some point this year, so I'm a lot more nervous about this book launch earlier on, than I was with the last one. The last one was like on launch day, I kind of had a little bit of a panic. Just like what if this is actually terrible, and no one told me but You know, which this book is not self published. So it's I mean, I, I've had like a whole team behind it. It's not terrible and no one said anything. It's still like, I know, because I just know people, you know, people are gonna get on Good Reads and write some scathing criticism. And it's just it's going to happen and it's why they tell you don't read your don't read your own reviews. Yeah, it's better not to know. You just gotta be what you've done. And if people message and say how much they loved it, that's what you hold on to. Yeah, no, I have a whole folder of those like, I never get rid of those. Those reader emails, I just drag them all into the into the little folder. Alright, whenever I need this. Yes, that is awesome. Yep. Good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. I really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a pleasure to meet you. All the best with the with the release that's coming out in April, and with your future work, and I'll definitely share anything I say because I just think what you're doing is awesome. And yeah. Thanks again. Oh, thank you. Yeah, no, this is nice. I appreciate it. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim, Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Kate Mildenhall Australian writer, podcaster and educator S2 Ep26 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome back to 2022, Season 2. My first guest of the year Kate Mildenhall, a writer, educator and podcaster from Hurstbridge Victoria on Wurundjeri lands, and a mum of 2. Kate is the author of two novels. Her debut novel, Skylarking , (2016) was named in Readings Top Ten Fiction Books of 2016 and longlisted for Best Debut Fiction in The Indie Book Awards 2017 and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize and The Mother Fault (2020) which was Longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and Shortlisted for the 2020 Aurealis Awards, Best Science Fiction Novel. Kate also co hosts The First Time podcast a podcast with fellow author Katherine Collette about the first time you publish a book, and she is currently working on her third novel and undertaking a PhD on creative process. ​ We enjoy a lively chat about failure, creating in a covid world, judgement of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman. ​ **This episode contains mentions of post natal depression* ​ Kate website / Instagram Twitter @ katemildenhall Books mentioned Rufi Thorpe article - Mother, Writer, Monster, Maid Four Thousand Weeks - Oliver Burkeman The Divided Heart - Rachel Power Making Babies - Anne Enright Listen to Claudia Carvan read The Mother Fault on audible Purchase Kate's books here Podcast instagram / website ​Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome back to season 220 22. My guest today is Kate Mildenhall, a writer, teacher and podcaster. From her speech Victoria orangerie lens, and a mom of two. Kate is the author of two novels her debut novel skylarking, released in 2016, and her most recent released the mother fault from 2020, Kate also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow author Catherine collet. About the first time he published a book, she's currently working on her third novel, as well as undertaking a PhD on creative process. Today, we enjoy a lively and fun chat about failure, creating in a COVID world judgment of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing, and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman, I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on case. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's delightful to chat to you. It's lovely to meet you. Let's share with the listeners. what your background is in what you create. Well, these days, I am a writer. So I've written a couple of books. And my last one was called the mother fault. My first was called skylarking. And I'm currently working on my third book and just added a PhD because you know, COVID times was like times to do crazy things, right? So I'm doing that so and beautifully at the moment. I'm getting to do that, you know, full time in whatever kind of capacity being a full time writer is what that looks like. I know, it looks like really different things for different people. But that's what I do. eautiful So, can you share what your new book is gonna be called? Are you still working on a time we're still working on that one. And I've actually just been away for a week, which says lots of things both about motherhood and guilt and Christmas and being an artist and to work on it. Because it's just been so crazy to try and work on creative projects during the homeschooling and the rest of it. I'm over here in Melbourne. And and I've exploded the book. I've I've I've done something quite radical with it. So that's fine. Just letting it simmer all the all the crazy things I've just done. But yeah, but it's been really fun. I've been working on that for about a year because the mother fault came out last year in the midst of of lockdown. So yes, I've been I've been working away. Oh my goodness. So what's your PhD? So the PhD is is it's really fun and exciting. It's at RMIT. And it's practice based. So it means that I get to do my writing. And I also am a podcaster. So I co host the first time podcast, which is interviews with writers. And a lot of just oversharing myself and my co host Katherine about our general publishing journeys. And, but I get to include all of that. So I get to include the my kind of interviewing and my obsession with creative process because that's what I am utterly obsessed with. So I'm and then my novel is kind of part of it as well. So it's a little bit different to a traditional kind of PhD. So I'm looking really particularly at journaling, and dealing with the kind of creative process and how writers do their thing how writers do their process. That sounds really fun. Like it sounds like it's just it's just a part of what you're going to be doing anyway. So it's not going to be like a tremendous I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be you know, hard to make your life anyway, but it sounds quite doable. Yes, and like it's almost like it's given it a kind of a shape all of the other work that I do you know sometimes when you're in a position and you can describe vibe, you know, this is my writing, this is the podcast and it all kind of links, you know, and having the PhD kind of around that goes, oh yeah, this is really validating to me, because it's a serious thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And also just community. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens when you're writing often and might in before I was a teacher, so I was really used to having lots of people around me and a big collaborator. And so I have often found the writing process to be quite lonely. And so even just having the system of the PhD and colleagues and supervisors and to be able to part be part of that network already, like I'm in the six months in MIT, it's, that's wonderful. Yeah, so it's really meeting that need the that creative space that Yeah, to do so. Also, now the kids are really excited, cuz they like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be adopted one day? Yes. So they're super pumped about that? Before we get to the kids, I know that was you gave me a beautiful segue there, but I'm gonna go take you back. Yeah. Did you do have you always been a writer? Or you know, when you? No, no, no. So I was at school, like, passionately into it kind of wanted to be a writer, wrote lots, you know, at high school and did the Friday anthology and won awards and things like that. And then I wanted to do this tape degree, Brian MIT writing and editing as, when I left, I went talk to the careers teacher about it. And apologies to people who've heard this story, if any of your listeners had, because I've told it so many times, but the TAFE their careers teacher said, Kate, Smart Girls don't do TAFE and basically said, don't do that course. And I was like, Ah, right. And, you know, not having not having kind of much goal of my own at that stage. I went off and did something else, which I promptly dropped out of, you know, after a year and went off traveling. But I went back and did that, that that course, eventually, which is the delightful thing, but no. So I went and traveled for a while, then I went back to uni and did teaching. And at that time, I kind of, I was writing a little bit like journaling a lot, but writing a little bit, and I, I put something in for a competition, and I didn't get anything, didn't, didn't get anything at all. And after all of these years of like, you know, winning things or getting commended in them. It was such a rude shock to me. I mean, I laugh at it. Now I tell this story to students because and they have a laugh at my expense. But I just I saw it as a huge failure and rejection. And I was like, Oh, I can't I can't write, I'm not going to write. And so I stopped. I stopped for like, all of these years, and I taught and you know, I was passionate about reading about teaching writing, and but I just I, other than my journal, I don't think that I wrote anything during all of those years. And then it was actually when my firstborn arrived that I felt compelled to write again. So yeah, so I writing wasn't, I never thought that I could be a writer when I grew up or that you know that that was a crazy outlandish kind of a thought. It's really interesting you say about that validation that you put that entry in, and it didn't get anything. And then that defines how you feel about your creativity. I had a similar experience years ago, because I used to do in a we had to do a Stanford's when we were proud of this group. And I was used to doing pretty well. And then I went in this larger competition and didn't even place and so I stopped performing. Because I'm not as good as I thought I was. You know, and for years, I let that define me that I wasn't, I wasn't as good as I thought I was. So I just went well, I must be very good anymore, isn't it? It's how do we it's ridiculous. I know. And, and heartbreaking. And often, when I'm talking about it with other writers, I'll say, you know, prepare for it and expect it and like get them in early, get as many values as you can eat early because I wasn't you know, I wasn't I hadn't developed any muscle in that area. So I so exactly like you say I just I did let it define me and like what a waste. I mean, I eventually came back to it. And I'm so glad and I think that you know, anyone who is an artist of any description probably has that kind of pulse in them that it's going to come out at some stage like you've got to make space for that at some stage or else it'll eat you up. And I'm so glad that it did. But I still think gosh, those, those wasted years in there as well. So these days, how do you view that kind of experience? Now? Like, if if you put yourself in something and you don't get it? How do you process that for yourself? That's such a good question. The, the, the last one that I had was actually, in the middle of the kind of process of the mother fault. I, I lost the original publisher and had to go and kind of start, start shipping it out again. And I was in, you know, I was broken for a little bit like it was it was rock bottom, I, I didn't think that I would be able to look at the manuscript again, I was hurt, and yet felt a lot of self loathing, I think. And what I realized during that period, was that I was going to do the damn thing anyway. You know, like that, I think that I had got to a point where I was like, Well, I don't care. I'm going to, you know, this, this book is kind of bigger than may sounds a bit wonky. But you know, we're in that sense, where you're like, I've got to see this thing through to the end, and see what it does. And so that was the thing, in the end that that got me through, and I think it's just layers, isn't it of rejection and failure along the way. I mean, you know, often, and you might be in the same position that, you know, people will say, Oh, yeah, but you your published like, How could anything ever go wrong from here, or you've got the thing, you know, you've already reached the goal, or you've been able to perform there or do that. And, and, I mean, the stakes just get higher, in a sense, and you just get rejected more publicly, with, with bigger stakes along the way. So yeah, yeah, that, that it's been a good, it's been a good learning process. For me, I think. And I just, I really do wish that I just failed more and failed more often. I think, too, when you're younger, no one sort of teaches you how to how to fail, like no one, no one says, Okay, now that now that you've lost, or they were better, or someone thought they were better, what how do you talk to yourself about that? Like, how do you do that, like, no one teaches so true. So you sort of know, just find your own way through. And unlike in both of our situations, it takes a long time. So you sort of think, gosh, if I hadn't done that earlier, what could I have achieved, you know, in all that time and space, instead of pushing things away, you know? Yeah, yeah. I agree. Teachers listening tapes. Had a flat. And that's I'm going on a tangent now. But that's the thing too, like, are we so afraid of those emotions that we don't want kids to lose? We that's why we give them everyone gets a for trying sticker and everyone gets Yeah, more than when we play pass the pass like kids parties. Everybody has to get a wrap up? You know, I know. And it's really hard. Everyone has to keep one has to be happy all the time. Yeah, I think that the hardest thing to do you find like sitting with your kids disappointment, and all those emotions that you can't fix, you know, something going on at school, and you just have to have to resist the impulse to try and fix it and make it make it better all the time. You know, and to take the discomfort away because it's, you know, you do have to feel all those horrible emotions and get and get used to them. That's thing if you don't have the opportunity to feel them, you could never work through them. So then all of a sudden you feel them and you go, what's this? I don't know what to do with this. And yeah, you deal with it in inappropriate ways. Like eating too much or drinking. Absolutely. All of the above. Oh, my gosh. Let's lean into your children. Tell us about your family. Okay, so I have I have two daughters. Gracie is my eldest. She's 10 going on 11 kind of you know, going on 19 And she is fiery and amazing. And then my youngest is Etta. And she's eight. Also fiery and amazing. And, you know, it feels very funny kinda I'm talking about them. At this point, I was actually really looking forward to, you know, to doing this because the book that I wrote is the last one is very much informed by my experience of motherhood. But you end up kind of packaging it in certain ways, like for the book world, you know, you package it in these kind of little sound bites. And, and in fact, the girls think it's hilarious because they were around so much when I was doing promo for the book, because we were all in lockdown. And they, they got really cross a couple of times, because they must have heard me say things like, you know, parenting is really hard. And I didn't like it all the time. Like, yeah, it's true, you know, and I'm gonna have to live with the fact that there's all these sound bites out in me talking about, you know, how kind of shit parenting has been at various times. But they are, they are glorious beings. We've just spent a lot of time together in the last 18 months. And, you know, it's kind of, I never realized the joy of watching them go off to their independent things, and all come back at the end of the day and be able to like, we've all done different things for the day is a very new and strange experience that I think only parents who've lived through this kind of last 18 months really understand. So they're my two. Yeah, they've done things during the day that you don't know about. That would be nice. Yeah, exactly. We're all really, really excited to tell each other about what? Oh, my goodness. So during that time, how did you manage to continue to do stuff during lockdown? Ah, we, you know, we didn't I think we just we just kept on failing beautifully. And when we first went in, so who even knows when that was maybe March, last year, I'm I'm sitting here in this little studio that my darling partner built for me in the backyard, and it was just finished, like, literally just finished the week before locked down. Where Of course, he also moved home and had to kind of write out do his work from home as well. He's a psych nurse. So he was kind of out and about, but also doing a lot of his work here. So this saved us having this actual separate space, because I used to work in the corner of the lantern. So I actually don't think that we would have survived at all, had we not had this. And the other beautiful thing was that because Adam, you know, his workplace was really good and quite flexible, so that he could do a lot of the homeschooling stuff in the mornings and then go out, you know, we just kind of juggled a bit between each other. And, and the kids, we live, we live kind of on the outskirts of Melbourne, there's a lot of trees, there's a big reserve behind us, like, I did feel extremely lucky that we had a bit more space around us. And, and we did you know, some of it, maybe the first two locked, it wasn't really, some of it was really lovely. And I think we did do that stuff of going, okay, we can have a fire in the backyard on a Wednesday night. And, you know, I would walk with one of the girls in the morning before they started just to give them a bit of space away from each other. And we did really pay attention to the flowers and the mushrooms and the birds and you know, so So for all that it was incredibly difficult. And there's also quite a few kids in our street. And we live in, you know, a little space where we could offer each other that support with other families and, you know, playing in the street, and across driveways and things like that. So I think really, we didn't you know, I lost a fair bit of work but but was still able to carry on, you know, we weren't in a really difficult kind of position with our jobs, and Adam kept his job. So for all those things, I think, you know, we were in incredibly, incredibly lucky. But also, as I said, to all of my mates and all of our WhatsApp threads, who had kids, you know, as we all kind of know, you know, we would all spiral down at certain points and just say like, I can't do this, I cannot do it anymore. I can't because it was never part of the deal that we signed up for right as parents, especially when then especially when you've already sent them out into the world and off to school and the rest of it like to suddenly have these big, curious, active social kids home with you all the time. And we're just we're just not equipped to provide everything that was partly out of the better the deal. Oh, man, look, hats off to you guys over there like we've we've had Touchwood we've had nothing as extreme as that. So yeah, you guys were often in our thoughts over here, all the Melbourne people, it's just unreal what you've been through. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad, and to be able to maintain your creativity maintain. Yeah, and I think creativity, you know, at times, and I've talked about this with a few friends in the writing world. You know, I was like, oh, gosh, maybe I should just go and train, retrain, I'll retrain to be like, a personal care attendant, or, you know, like, if there was that sense of, like, what is the point of doing my art in, you know, in a burning world, in a burning world, in a world that's collapsing, and so there was that pressure, but also the kind of focus or deep work that I find I need to do creative work just wasn't there, you know, I couldn't you at any stage knew you're going to be interrupted, couldn't get purchase on any kind of thought to go deep on it, I am often need to go away, or that's the way that I've done my kind of writing practice is that a few times a year, when it works, I'll go away for a few days, either with a writing group or on my own and, and go really deep on it. And that's where I find you know, I have real breakthrough, so to not have any of that, but also to not have any of that kind of friction of being out in the world, you know, and, and seeing people or interacting with people or observing things, or being able to go to the ocean, or all the things that would normally fill me up so that I have some kind of something to give some output. Whereas I felt like what what do I possibly have? I've been inside my house, with my children, you know, worrying and that anxious, you know, that kind of being in lizard brain mode of at any stage about that uncertainty, but also thinking? Am I supposed to panic now? How am I protecting my children, you know, and being fearful of other people, for the first time was a very strange kind of thing. And I think it'll take a while for us all to get to the other side of that. Hmm, absolutely. It's sort of I had a moment where I was going for a walk one day, and all of a sudden, I just thought, oh, shit, has that person got COVID? Like, I was just starting to panic. And I felt myself sort of shiver and, and I just sort of backed up and went home real quick. I thought, this is a horrible thing to be thinking. Yeah, well, but it was like, and then every time you turn the telly on everything on the radio, you just couldn't escape it. And it was just disastrous. So that's when I basically came into my studio and started music, more music stuff, I just had to get out of the current world and go back into a different world. So you found it. So you could do that. You could then put your energy into that space. Yeah, that's I basically had to, I use it as an escape. Maybe. I just had to end. What I ended up doing was I look, I was I was listening to a lot of older music, I think to take myself out of the current time space to Yes, yes. So I started doing covers of, of older songs. And I ended up releasing them all because it was like, I created different versions of the songs, got different backings, got a piano player, change the tempo, all this stuff. And it was sort of my way of looking back on it. Now. I don't think I realized at the time, but, but making sure that things were different. That changing. I didn't like what was happening. So I was changing it in some way. You know, I love that. Yeah. It's really that's the first time I've actually articulated that out loud. That's really interesting. Well, it's very profound. You mentioned before about your mother's hope novel, now you write fiction. So yeah, at school, I could never remember the difference. That's your struggle. I'm just, yeah, fiction made up, which means it's made up. But you mentioned that your mothering role had a lot of influence over that. So what sort of themes were you exploring in the book and I apologize, I haven't read your books. No, absolutely. Read say that. Because I I'm not a very good reader. I don't like to sit still and read. Isn't that terrible? No, not at all. Not at all. Then they, the mother fault is a it's a kind of a thriller. It said in the very near future, and it's about a woman MYM, who's got two kids, Sen. Sam and when the novel opens, her husband, Ben has gone missing on an overseas mine site. And in this very near future, Australia, everyone has tracking chips in their hands. But he's offline, they can't work out where he is. And very quickly, she's told to stay where she is, and not to investigate it any further. And so she does. So she does, because they kind of threatened to take her kids away from her. And she says stuff this, I'm gonna go and find him. And so she goes on the run. So she crosses Australia, with the two kids and then gets on a yacht and, and sails to Indonesia to try and search for him. So, you know, where the idea came from. My first book was historical fiction, so nothing at all in this kind of world. But when I finished skylarking, I was kind of sitting with this idea of the kids at that stage. Maybe Esther was like, two and Gracie was four, I think. And I was deep in that bit that those trenches where you like, wow. Not at school yet. So you're doing that kind of childcare, kinder, you know, crazy run every day is no more than kind of two hour, lots of anything. And I, and still that period, where it's just really hard. It's just really hard, you haven't I hadn't kind of totally I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re re identifying as, as, as a writer, and while I'm a professional out in this world, but also, then I just come home, and it's just, you know, back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic, and the rest of it. And so there was that stretch, there was that kind of huge amount of feelings, both positive feelings, I adore these kids, I will do anything for these kids, I would kill for these kids at the same time as sometimes wanting to run away. So there was those feelings that I had. And at the same time, it was very deep in the political kind of craziness of the asylum seeker debate, and which, of course, we haven't at all fixed or done anything good about in this country. And so I was kind of like having that daily thing of the news of watching, particularly women who were, you know, crossing oceans in really unsafe ways to try and make their kids safe. At the same time going, I just want to run away from my kids like, how, how are these two? How can I reconcile these feelings? Yeah, so for that reason, you know, over time, I realized that I wanted to write about a woman, you know, on the run, trying to kind of protect our kids, but also trying to make sense of who she is, and what she's allowed to want. Now that she's a mother, and is she allowed to want the things that she used to want. She you know, she has a kind of crazy affair with an ex lover on the boat, in, in the book, not not a real spoiler, because lots of people talk about it when they read the book. And, you know, it was that kind of thing. And people have got cross, like, it's one of the things in the book that people are really cross about. Because that, I think, when we, when we look at mothers in fiction, and mothers in general, in society, we have all these expectations of how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to feel, and what they're supposed to prioritize. And if you kind of, you know, poke the bear, I suppose, and say, well, maybe this isn't what, what we want, or what we always want, and maybe it's complicated. You can get some big responses out of people. So, you know, that's what I kind of wrote in my, my feelings. I also, you know, there's a kind of thread of, it's not named, but postpartum depression, which I think I probably had but never really understood. The first time around with my first with my first daughter. Yeah, so everything, all of the feelings, all of the feelings, I kind of composited into the book. Did you find that was the way view of you're dealing with that stuff? Like you use that as a way to work through things? Yeah, I do think so. I think I was so compelled at that point to write about the motherhood experience, and in a way where I really wanted him to be kind of this superhero figure. And in fact, beautifully a couple of reviewers have kind of commented that you know, like, she's the kind of Jack Reacher of she's just like mum version of Jack Reacher and I love that. I love that because it was about it. saying, you know, I definitely don't have any answers in there. But, but being able to talk about it and being able to look at this idea that instead of, instead of what I feel like there's some pressure to do, which is to say, oh, okay, I'm a mum now. And so now I do things in a, in a mum way, like, I erase this kind of version of myself that was there before, which, it just seems so crazy, but I think to a level where or compelled to do that a little bit like, okay, you know, now we do things this way. And, and it was great to be able to examine this, this feeling of going on, I am still that young version of myself too. As part of it, I went on a yacht, I'd never been on a yacht before. And I, I crude, I volunteered to crew on a yacht, from Darwin to Indonesia, in a race. And, like, it was, it was crazy. It was one of the craziest things I've ever done. And it was incredible. And part of what was incredible about it is that it was scary, you know, and, and I, I reached new levels of fear. And when I was underneath, you know, at one night in my cabin, before, when I came off the late shift and thinking, we're going, you know, this boat is going to tip over which of course, that's not what happens. But if you think I'm gonna die in this boat, and that's going to be ridiculous. And my daughters are going to think, Oh, Mom was doing this stupid research for a stupid book. And she drowned in the middle of the table. It's a, but when I got to Amazon as well, I got to travel around a bit. I stayed there for a few extra days. And on my own, like traveling on my own, like I hadn't, you know, kind of really ever, but also, I remembered that my 19 year old self who was a backpacker who, who could make a decision on the corner about which way they were going to go and not to reach consensus with an entire family about what they wanted to eat or what snack they wanted it. You know, it was remembering that kind of that kind of sense of myself, which I think was powerful. Oh, that's incredible. That's, that is so good. And that's when you had your sordid affair. Yeah, no, definitely not. That part wasn't true? Yeah, that's that is so cool. Because what you're saying about society's expectations of what a mother should be? I feel like that is that that's what seems to drive the mom guilt. I think it's like, you see, or you do a post on your socials or whatever, or you see someone else's. And there's all these comments and you think, across what are we supposed to be doing then? Are we supposed to be spending time with the kids? And we're not supposed to be spending time? Are we supposed to be going getting our hair done? Without? Like, it's all this constant? Yes. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So I think, you know, I actually had a gorgeous, gorgeous dinner last night with, with very old friends that I went to school with. And, you know, as always, as we talk about work and life, and our marriages and our kids, you know, we were commenting and we've all just we're in the the years of old turning 40 that we've just reached part where we an excuse the language, you can put a language you want to have no fucks left to give. And, you know, but but we were commenting, like how that's been a slow process, and that in all those early years, like, all those things, am I packing the right snacks? How many cakes? Should I bake for the cake store? Should I be on the Kinder committee? Should I you know, how will we how are we approaching this way of parenting the kids like, just constant self judgment, constant comparison? And then additionally, if you're a creative, so you've got all that world over there, and then if you're a creative, you've also got the like, how much of myself can I give to my parenting and how much of myself can I can I keep over for my art and how selfish I was just rereading this amazing article by roofie thought which I'll send through to you. It's called Mother writer monster made and it was something that I was really touchstone for me while I was writing the book, and it's about her kind of really grappling with this idea of, I think it's Jenny awful, who says about being an art monster, like, you know, that, that, that there's this sense that throughout history, you know, all of the, you know, the old white male writers like they just set up in their studios or whatever their attics writing while they had a wife to do everything else, they didn't see their children, they could, they could spend all of their energy, all of their intellectual space, all of it on, on doing their work. And I don't, I don't want to do that, like I, I do want to kind of be involved and go down and see the carols at lunchtime and do those things. Like I feel very lucky that it's worked out in a way that I do get to be present. But also sometimes I do not sometimes I want to go away for two weeks and work on my book and forget, honestly, forget for a minute that I have children, because I think part of it is that that enormous part of our brain, which is constantly, constantly with the kids somewhere, you know, worrying about or just ticking over slightly, you know, have they got something today? Have they got that bag, all that present that I need to get, you know, and then and then the biggest thing is, are they happy? Have we made the right decision? Should we send them to an alternative school sheet, you know, all of the things that just wind around in your head all the time? And sometimes I think, Wow, if I? What could I do with that space? You know, what can I do with that space? And I think I had the most I had the beautiful kind of opportunity to interview Helen Garner for our podcast. A couple of weeks back, you bring that up? Well, it was incredible. But you know what I had? I you know, I've read her for so long. And I asked her about why she hasn't had to answer the motherhood questions so much. I mean, she talks about motherhood in her journals, particularly, but I was kind of wondering whether it was just my age that she did get asked that, you know, maybe when she first published monkey grip, and she says, this most glorious thing about, you know, when she had her daughter who's about to turn 50. So that gives you a sense, or who's a bit older than 50, I think. She said we didn't have a choice. Like it wasn't a decision to make, we just had kids, there was no anxiety about it, there was no thinking that it was a choice. And she's she tells this beautiful story about you know, for better or for worse that basically she kind of strode out into life. And she, she told her daughter to, you know, to kind of keep up. And she and she, you know, typical Garner always says, I don't know if that was the right way to do it. But that's how I could do it. And I and and she acknowledges also that there's just an an incredibly different level of anxiety around even the decision to have children now, which has made it all the more complicated. Think, yeah, because everything is a decision and you're so conscious about what am I saying? Yes to what am I taking away from my kids? Should I just be sitting here kind of being around for them? Or should I go out and do the thing that I really want to do, which takes me away from them, but, you know, maybe in 20 years, they're going to say, Gee, mom really did what she loved. You know, that's what you have to kind of hope right? across you. Be in therapy talking about us? Exactly, exactly. We can I mean, we can't do it. Right. You know, there's ways that we can, I suppose, try and mitigate against a failure and really bad ways every day for them. But I, I have got better we talked about failure before I've also got better at realizing that um, you know, I'm going to stuff this gig up this parenting gig up constantly, constantly, I'll stuff it up and, and being able to say that to the kids as well, you know, maybe is, is one way of getting through it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I wasn't even. You mentioned, do you have girls have heard you say comments like that, while you're at home doing you your book launch? Is it important to you that they actually see that you are going out and doing stuff? I don't want to say not just being a mom, because there's no Yeah, being a mom? Of course, you're I'm hearing that. Yeah, no, it really is. And you know, the first time that that was truly validating, so I went on mat leave from at that stage. I was working in this at the State Library doing education there. And I went on mat leave. And that's when I realized I think I said before, you know, when Gracie was born, I just felt this extraordinary urge to write again and it kind of came at me in different ways. I tried to join a local writing group, it didn't work then you know, and not until Esther was born. Did I really go Okay, that's it. I'm gonna I'm going back to uni. I'm going to do it. And which led to some of the first kind of guy games that the kids played when they were, you know, doing imaginary play, were picking up laptop bags and going to you playing going to uni. And I thought I remember thinking, Oh, this is a good thing, let you know, like that they are seeing me do this, that it's this kind of crazy working life that I have. But they're, you know, incredibly proud of it. They like googling me, they think that's really fun. But, you know, and so they liked that part of it. On the other hand, it you know, at some point they will, maybe they will read, the mother felt and that's terrifying. Like, I think I will feel really unscanned by that process, because I you know, it has, it is really revealing of the fact that sometimes you don't want to have to be both, you don't want to have to be a mother and artist and friend, and you know, partner and all of those things. You just like, just give me some space, just do one thing. But But I also think I've tried to be really open, the kids have seen me at rock bottom, the kids have seen me on the days where I've had to close the door and have a cry and say, just let me have a cry, Nia, you know, I need I need time out. And for better or for worse. That's the kind of way that we've run with it. So hopefully, they will, you know, they will see that as an honest part. But I am conscious to that. You know, I haven't written memoir, and I think it must be really hard for people who are writing nonfiction and kind of living living their lives. And their children's stories far more openly. Like I'm conscious of that. And I do read with with close interest how people navigate talking about their kids, when they start to have a profile in terms of what their art does as well, I think that's just hard. I don't have any answers to that. Is you have to think you'd have to be so considerate of them. Have them exactly be so aware of. Yeah, it can be quite hurtful for them. You know, it's Yeah. And as they start to talk about, you know, I think one of the things that happened which is really funny in the process of it took me four years to write the mother fold is that, you know, Gracie, Gracie grew up, and I and so I changed the one of the characters se she actually grew older, I made her older in the course of it because it was suddenly became so fascinating talking with my daughter, you know, like, when they get to that part where they start, you know, you start having really interesting kind of conversations and they're curious and and they've kind of leveled up in the intellectual stakes. So much so that you think whoa, whoa, what have we got ourselves into here? This is a real little human who has like, really big thoughts about the world. So you know, that's interesting as well, to me, that's, that's wonderful. And I love their perspective or perspective on the world and the way that they can so throw you with their truthiness. Sometimes, oh, gosh, yeah. I work in childcare. That's That's my day job. And I see you get those. I'll never tire of the amazing things children really funny things, but things yes. Just makes you stop and think and go, Oh, my gosh, you're seeing the world in such a different way to me and it's wonderful. You know, it might pull yourself back of seeing this whole you know, where they're oblivious of so much stuff and it's wonderful love to be able to be like that again. Be overawed by all these big things that are happening and just be concentrating on this. This crayons not not the crown the next sharpening biggest thing in my world right now is to get that sharpener, or I'm not gonna be able to do what I need to do you know, just Yeah. Oh, just living so simply and in the moment, in the moment, not worrying about not worrying about you know, the possible trials that will come when they're teenagers. I love that they're doing it right. It's beautiful. I love that. Do you think that that huge desire and drive that you had to get back into your writing when when Gracie was a baby was that some of that born from sort of finding your, I don't wanna say, reclaiming your identity, but perhaps trying to discover who you were at that time. Like, I'm a mom, it's really interesting that mean for pre K, yeah, it was, you know, I had, I had done these little tiny baby steps to stepping away from what I thought was expected of me. So, you know, I thought that my parents were both teachers, while I had attempted to do this little kind of attempted at the end of school to do this, something else, you know, media, TV, whatever, it didn't work out, and I thought I will, you know, what you do as a, as a good member of societies that you work in nine to five job and you it's actually more than nine to five, because they were teachers. So it was kind of, you know, all consuming, and you do that really well and passionately, and then you, you know, you have a partner and you get married and, and buy a house and, you know, go camping and all the things like I was really like, this is what you do with your life. And when I had this opportunity to go to the State Library to work for under secondment kind of thing just for for three months. And suddenly I was like, Oh, wow. Like, the world is not just like a school, you know, like, there are other people and they have better like work life balance than I do, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. So I started unhooking myself a little bit from what I thought was expected of me. And then the shock of being a parent. And, you know, it was we had, we were 10 days late, Gracie was breached out to have an emergency cease, like it was not, it wasn't how we planned it at all. So it was all a bit of a shock. And in the first six months after Grace's birth, I lost two grandparents, both who have whom I was really close to. So it was kind of just a bit of a shitshow. And I think I found the capacity to write things down. Kind of hilly or like that there was this enormous force, you know, that visceral kind of thing, when you when the kids are born, you're kind of leaking, no one tells you how much you're going to leak like you just kind of wet for, I don't know, for six months, maybe longer, you know, like and how much and the sleep deprivation and all of those the just the craziness of the world that you're in, as well as that feeling of being affronted that no one told you it was gonna be like this, even though they attempted to. But no one really, no one really kind of told you and then I think being out in the world, I clearly remember, you know, I had that I had a year's worth of maternity leave. And I remember like, I don't know, go into the park or something immediate friend for a coffee on a Wednesday, lunchtime and going like, Wednesday, lunchtime is a time in the world where people are not just at their work, like people are out there in the world. And they're doing other things. And I know it sounds really crazy now. But I really did have to deprogram myself to what I thought life was meant to be. And even in that first year after skylark in, you know, and since the mother faults come out, it's still a daily practice of going this is a kind of a life that I've made for myself, that makes me incredibly happy and fulfilled and it does not meet, it does not check all the boxes, like doesn't check the financial box doesn't check, you know, a lot of the boxes, and yet I am so much kind of mentally healthier and happier than I was when I was killing myself trying to you know, be a teacher lot of the writing of the mother fault is about geology as well, I did all of this incredible kind of reading about geology, and I think it is that, um, you know, you kind of, they shift you off, they shift the axis, you know, you kind of it's kind of like and start you're spinning in a in a different kind of direction. I think having having the kids and I don't think, you know, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that they make you better or wise or anything like that, because I know plenty of incredible humans who are not parents and they are incredibly wise and amazing and have kind of lived the full breadth of experience. But I think in terms of what it does for you personally is that it kind of just kicks you off where you are, and you have to look at you have to look at everything differently and and in that act of shifting I think I think Matt label or you know if you're lucky enough to have it or at least that space where you're kind of recovering from actually birthing or or having a newborn in any way that because it it so dramatically changes your day to day that you are forced to to reconsider things and often I think it's a real shame like, especially for friends who, particularly the men, who didn't necessarily get any parental leave or things like that, like life just kind of rolled on. And that, that what I'm so grateful for is the big kind of abrupt shift that made me go, Okay. Well, how do I want this to be? You know, how do I want my life to be? And I've got, I've now got a little human on the outside of me, who's also my responsibility. But how do I want our life to look? Yeah, and without that, you probably would never have come to that realization, you would have just kept going along, doing it slowly along exactly. I just wanted to touch on, you mentioned about the mother for having like, the geology. And so the title of the book is that, I'll give you my take on it. Yeah, because I really loved English at school, and I loved analyzing things. And to this day, my sister, it drives me nuts. When we watch movies, I'm always picking up the love that she's in the light. He's higher than her. She's all this sort of, you know, so basically, this is my take on it. And I say, again, I haven't read it. So I can't say, but it's, to me, it's two things, right? It's the fault. As in fault, as in the mother does things wrong, whatever, you know, no, one's perfect. Finding your way, whatever. And then the fault of like, the geology, like the fault lines of the things that move the earth, sort of Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Absolutely perfect. And it's not, um, it's not a technical one, someone who did a read for me at one stage was like, Is this a technical term? Like the greatest, you know, fault line? And I said, No, I totally just made it up. But in terms of, but yes, absolutely refers to that. But the funniest thing was that when I kind of got to it, and and it is that one of those beautiful things we I, I came up with the title myself, because often, you know, often publicy and you know, the publisher will do a title for you, because the one that you've got is shocking. But um, so I did come up with it myself. And I called my mom. And I was like, Ma'am, I've got it. I think I've got the titles of calling the mother felt. And she said, Oh, you can't call it that. And I said, why? And she said, Ah, because it's always the mother's fault. Like people associate those words together all the time. And I was like, Yeah, I know. Like, that's the point. And so many people have said, booksellers, particularly that like, women will comment on it, whether or not they buy it, and sometimes they do, but they will comment on the phrasing of it, because, and, and it provokes a lot of feelings. And I think that I think, you know, we love to a fault. As well as all of that guilt stuff about, you know, me in the book, you know, is kind of like running across the country, you know, escaping from the government, these shady government forces who are looking after her looking after the kids, and she's still wearing, like, oh, maybe we've had takeaway too much this week, like, you know, you know, because that is, that is how the brain works, you know, that you're, you're in absolute kind of danger mode. And the other thing is that, you know, when, when I won't give away the ending in the book, the part that I often read out, too, is that towards the end of the book, when MIM kind of works out what her husband's been up to, and she's really cross and she says, You know, I would have liked to be a hero too, but I was at school pickup, you know, and that, that in the end is what happens to us, you know, like, that is, that is literally in a nutshell. Brilliant, yeah, you know, that you you could do anything you could do you could be anything, you know, that this the possibility of what we have available to us. And of course, part of that is also being a parent and, and that the possibilities that are opened up with that, and the kinds of highs of our our extraordinary, but also the day to day logistics of it are just shit. You know, they just really, and I'm sure some people enjoy it, but I do not. And I know lots of people who do not, and they take up time and brain space and energy and and if there was one thing that I think kind of delicious thing that came out of COVID and lock downs is this tendency, which I hope we can try and hold on to which is to say, okay, maybe we can just have a fire in the backyard on Wednesday night and not do 18 afterschool activities and go to every party and say yes, they have We think maybe we can just, you know, hold on to a little bit less to think that it's enough the way that we're doing things. And then we have space for those other big, crazy wild possibilities that we want for ourselves or for our families. That would be a nice thing. I think I totally, totally agree with that. I can recommend a book which I just listened to on as an audio book. It's called 4000 weeks. Oliver Berkman, I think his name is. And the premise is, if we live to AD, that's what we've got 4000 weeks, that's only, you know, 4000, Saturday nights, 4000, Sunday mornings, and it was kind of like, it was very confronting when I first started listening to it, but his premise is, you know, it's limited, it's finite our time here. So you got to be when you can't do everything. And we think we've been fed this lie that we can, particularly women, particularly in the last 20 years, you can do everything you can have you agree, you can be kids, you can look amazing, your house can look amazing. You can see all your friends, you can have a great marriage, like bullshit. Yeah, you actually just cannot get to doing this. Yeah. It's impossible. It is impossible. And, you know, the book, I keep saying to my partner, you know, like, it's changed my life. He's like, your only two days in my blog post finishing the book. So just, maybe it hasn't changed your life yet. But I feel like it's got the capacity to have I keep reminding myself like, you know, I'm 40. Now like, that's it. I'm halfway through my 4000 weeks, like, come on, what are you going to do with the rest of them? You know, make them count? Can I ask I don't know if this is a sacred or not, but does mean get another book about it? Does she? Does she ever come back? You know, what she not at this stage? Lots of people were super duper interested in that, because it's left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't planned there to be and hopefully. Yeah, I can't, I can't make any large announcements about such things. But hopefully, hopefully she gets a turn to, you know, be adapted into screen in some way. Oh, yes, but not that I would say anything about that. But hopefully, that's something that happens. I love this podcast because I find out things about other artistic pursuits that I know nothing about. So tell me how, when you write a book, do you then have to go you have to go find someone to publish it for you. You have to send it off to lots of people and stuff. Well, essentially, what we're how it works, that that's essentially how it works. One of the one of the great lucky breaks of my life is that when I was starting the course that I did the writing course at RMIT, I started writing skylarking as part of, you know, subject to their novel subject. And I actually managed to get that picked up by a publisher before it was finished. So it's very rare that that happens. And that happened. Which was incredible. And since then I've got an agent. So in Australia in particular, definitely in the overseas, the best thing to do is to find a literary agent, if one can you know, I mean, the other thing about it that's been so strange, is you kind of think, oh yeah, I got my first book published. And now I'm just gonna get books published. Like, that's the way it rolls. And of course, that doesn't happen either. Like every single one is still, you know, has to be great. It has to be ready to be published, it has to there has to be space in the market, there has to be all those other you know, everything has to kind of align and combined. So that's why so often, you know, writers in this country, in on average $12,000 A year from their writing, like it's ridiculous. I mean, there's a few outliers, but that's why so often they've got all the other hustles that they have, whether or not they're in writing, like any artists in this country, in fact, because we're so ridiculously and chronically underfunded and undervalued. But you know, that's why having this little bit of time where it has been, I have been able to do it because I got an advance for the book. So I have been able to just focus on writing and feel validated that I don't also have to take on every teaching gig and every workshop key you know, and because that's, that's really hard and that's the other side of the you know, Being an art monster, or, you know, being creative is that then you've got to also manage your own business, about that. And all everything that that comes along with that, which I think often too, is not instinctively where an artist strengths might be. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it's very hot, you know, and we want to collaborate, and we, and we want to do all the things and we want to be excited. And it's really hard to kind of insert yourself in there and say, Actually, but hang on, am I being paid for this? Or Hang on? How many hours? Is this gonna take me? Um, one of the things that one of my gangs do have women all have, we're all right, as we're all parents. And at certain times, we've written each other's like, hardcore emails for each other. Whether we're saying, no, actually, we need to be paid more than that, or this is how much I'm charging, because it's still so instinctively hard to do it yourself. I'm getting better at it. But it's still really hard to do it. To do it yourself. Yeah, so the business side of it is just an absolute mess. But I must say that having a my incredible agent on board now. And she's amazing, and she just no bullshit. And she does the, the bits that I both don't understand. And I have no energy for and she lets me in, which protects the time that I have then to write, which is what soulmates? Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. So because you've written because, like you said, about getting your advance is that because you sorry, if I'm Hope I'm not being too personal. Like, no, no, go ask. This is what we should be doing. We should be talking about the business stuff. Yeah, really? Yeah. So did you have to present the idea for the book? And then they were so we really liked this. So we're gonna give you the funds to give you the time and space to create it? Yeah, what often happens is that you'll get sued by Agent took the mother fold out and took it to various publishers, and then the publishers all kind of, you know, I was in the fortunate spot to kind of have a number of bids in from different publishers. So then you kind of talk about it, you talk to everyone and see who's a good fit. And who's let's be very frank, who's got the most money. And at that stage, they'll often say, so people will often get contracted in a two book deal or a three book deal. So they'll say, What have you got next. And hilariously, we were off, and we were doing a trip around Australia to visit our mates who live up in the Kimberley. So we take him through, you know, eight weeks off, put the camper trailer on, we were way out in this remote community had very little phone reception. And I'm trying to like pitch my new book, which I hadn't written a word of. The second book is cut, it's kind of a little bit of this, it's kind of a little bit that so that's often what happens is that you kind of pitch a concept or, and some people really don't like being contracted, like some writers will say, Oh, the pressure of having a contract hanging over my head for the next book is too much. I can't write like that. I'm a bit of a deadline person. So I kind of like it. Having said that, I've already missed my deadline. So that's that's the way things go to. So I wanted to ask you about your podcast. Yes. The first time. It's funny. Do you get this a lot when people google it, they think it's about something else? Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We do. And in fact, there is another one which is about the which came after us. And of course, now we've now it's hilarious, because it's we're forcing we're about to start our fifth season next year. And we've also now you know, I'm up to publishing my third book, Katherine's publishing her second book. So the premise at the start was that it was about the first time you publish a book. And because Catherine was about to publish her, so we chat to each other about all the things you know, what do you do for a launch? The kinds of questions you're asking as well, like, how do you find an agent, you know, what's meant to cost? As well as interviewing Australian writers about their kind of the first time they published a book and what they've learned since which is, which has been nice. Yeah, cool. So you're gonna change the show to the third time that you've heard? Yeah, I know, we were like the first and subsequent times. And now we've got such a brand that I feel like we can't change it. But this year, or next year, we're actually going to, we're hoping to focus we got some really kind of, I talked to Maggie Chipstead, US writer who was shortlisted for the Booker Prize this year, and, you know, getting Helen Garner to speak, you know, we've kind of been begging our friends in the first season to like, Well, you talk to us to now. You know, all these books arrive every day the publishers are out. We get pitches all the time, we can't possibly fit on everyone who, you know, we've been asked to have. So it's this real switch. But you know, a bit like you I think I just I'm, I'm so obsessed and curious about how other people do the thing that they do and how they manage To make it work, and I'm like a bow burden. So I saw I still little bits of everyone's processes and ideas. And, and I just think it's incredibly, it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly interesting to have those conversations with people. And, and also, I don't think I realized Katherine actually was at an event the other night, and she messaged me afterward. And she said, people really listened to us, like people really came up and said, like, it's really helpful. I really, you know, your voice is so familiar. And I think the beauty now of podcasting, and you would know this is that it feels you know, you forget that however, many people are going to download it later. And you just, you're very, you're sitting often now in your own home, and you're very intimate, and you're very frank. And then you forget sometimes, what you've said, when someone comes up to you are random, and oh, I loved what you said about this about your marriage. I'm like, shit, and I say that. But yeah, you know, I I've become, yeah, I've become really digital. I mean, my dream, my dream is that I get to write books. And then someone on the ABC gives me a show. And I can just talk to creatives about what they do. You know, and someone can pay me to do it. That's the That's the dream. Really, let's be frank Ellison. That is, that's my train. That's what I want to happen. That is so good. I love that anyone listening for the AV? Yeah. Give us by the show. I found the same thing. I, I found that mostly why I started this is I needed to find out other people's opinions on how not necessarily how to do the physical stuff. Because everyone's so different in there are different, you know, requirements or whatever, but how to change my perception about stuff because I was finding I was getting really challenged, being interrupted and that kind of thing, like, you know, having to having to look at things in a different way and needing to for my own sake, because it was I was just going to have to stop creating, because I just was too wound up and too, you know, almost resentful. That sounds horrible. Yes. But yeah, so I've really enjoyed hearing how other people do it how how they think about things. Yes. And how they, how they still meet their needs, but not at the expense of their own mothering. Yeah, so yeah, I've just love it. I think it's the range too, don't you think Allison that like I am? Have you read the divided heart? Oh, I interview? Yes. You have you? Yes, of course you did. You interviewed Rachel. That's how I knew about your podcast. You know, like, that was such a profound book. For me. I got that really early because someone recommended it to me. And then since then, I've read lots of this and and right, who's a writer, her extraordinary book on being a mother and all this, there's heaps, there's heaps and, and often you're drawn to those ones, too. Like I read all of them, for people who aren't parents as well. But I think it's the range of going, well, this person did it like that. And then this person didn't like that. It's so permission giving when you go, okay, I can be away from my children, and do my work that way. Or I can do it amidst the interruptions. And I can write a chapter on my phone while I'm doing, you know, there's no right way to do it. And I think in the end, sometimes I worry about my obsession with reading about other people's process, but then I'm like, no, because the more you read, the more expensive your idea of what it can be is. And yeah, so I'm totally there with you. It's made my practice so much better. And which is why it's so important that you know, and so amazing in such a generous kind of actor that you that you do this podcast, too, I think because it is. It's that talking about the unspoken or which, which, you know, there were there were people. Yeah, there were definitely people who, who let me know, I'll always remember a gorgeous friend, Amy, who messaged me on day three and said you might start crying today. And that's okay. And I have since then, I have always sent that message to people, you know, to because I was like, that was so incredibly helpful, that she told me that, you know, and then and I think that there is this act of and you have to know when to say it because you don't want to burst that gorgeous, pregnant, first time pregnancy bubble either for people but the sharing of stories and the way that women in particular share stories. What a lifeline that is. Oh, that's that's happened. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I think the rise of Social media of this showing this perfection this, you know, this beautiful staged photo like we're talking about the Christmas tree, you know? Yeah. Is that really reality? You know? Or if you've got that Christmas tree hidden in a different room where no one can tell you why can't we just be honest with each other and just getting rolled out like don't be afraid to, to share and I think that would help so much not just in, like what we've talked about, but also like the whole mental health thing like actually saying, Yeah, I had a lot of trouble. And now I'm going to use that to help everybody else. Yeah, it's just so powerful. And it's not incredibly ashamed often scared of and embarrassed about, you know, it's laugh and it's reality. And the more we talk about it, the better. No, absolutely. I get a bit precious I think sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And scared, scared. Scared of how scared of what people will think, you know, I can say this as a 40 something year old, but there's no way I would have said this 20 years ago, you know, yeah, like we're talking right back at the beginning about this judgment. Yeah, absolutely. What he has to start thinking like a 40 year old woman. Yes, we actually, oh, that's. So basically, I was gonna ask, what you've got coming up. I've actually got a couple of, I've got some great workshops that I'm teaching in the new year in 2022. And the first one is a kind of a kicking off your creative year. So it's for writers Victoria, I'll send you through the details. But it's a full day online workshop. So people can do it from wherever they are in Australia. And we're looking at it's for emerging, or mid I think it can be for anyone really, but just looking at ways to kind of really kick off the year going, how am I going to make space for my creative work in whatever kind of situation that I'm in that my my work and my family is in? And how I'm going to do that. So that is that's really fun. And yeah, people I mean, people can find I try and keep up to date on socials, I'm having a bit we're having our three weeks at the beach offline, which I'm just so excited and thrilled about. So January's always off. But yeah, podcasts new podcast season, coming up with the first time and then lots of lots of little events in the New Year as well. So and then the book eventually. You know what, now that now that I've spoken to you, I'm gonna read your books. And a big thing for me because I love that well, and you know, if you're if you are into audiobooks, I can highly recommend although I haven't listened to it myself, because it's just too weird and hard to do. But the gorgeous Claudia Karvan read the mother fault for Audible. Yeah, or audio book or whatever. And I got to talk to her quite a bit. She's really into it. And everyone who I know who's read it that way, has loved it. So that might be a way that works for you. That is definitely something I can do. Thank good. That's okay. That's it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. So, so lovely speaking to you, Allison. I feel like that's like been a debrief as well as just a little therapy session. Thank you as Digby, it was lovely to meet you, too. Are you in the middle of your first publishing experience long to get a deal for already been there and want to know how others experienced it? Maybe you're a writer, a reader, a lover of Australian fiction, this podcast is for you. Here's the deal. Adams first book, the helpline is hitting shelves in Australia very soon. And she has got some questions. Like how do I plan a launch party? What else should I expect? In the Green Room? If I get invited to a festival? Will I get invited to a festival? What if I get invited to a festival and no one shows up? Like my day job? Is my life gonna change? What does it feel like to have a bad review? Do I need to get my nails done to match my book cover? Should I be on Twitter more? And even though my first book skylarking came out a couple of years ago, and I can give Katherine some advice already has lots of our experiences that are vastly different. So we thought we'd cast the net a little wider. And ask some other Australian writers about that first time. I just ticked that box novel and started this incredible adventure. It's great to have a deadline to work towards you know, there's this tendency to obviously procrastinate or not even procrastinate. Just keep reworking and reworking and never really deciding that it's finished never pressing them and I distinctly remember the moment I got the idea for what With become the first novel, that moment is vivid in my mind full of those things had a choice, I write the story down or I go completely mad that first shortlisting that you get is just this amazing validation. And for some reason, it tends to happen when you're at your lowest point. And it always just kind of buoys you up, and allows you to keep going. There's three parts to being an artist of any sort, there's talent, there's hard work, and the third one ever forgets as luck, good luck, the lucky chance comes and you're not ready for your lucky chance, you're not gonna make it either. In each episode, we'll ask a writer to come clean on all the fields and the logistics of their first time, and will hone in on advice on a particular aspect of the publishing process. I'll also ask Catherine to update us on where she's at with her own adventure into the world of a debut novelist. Whether it's chatting to her editor, getting her social sorted, or speaking to an audience of booksellers, we are taking a bit of a risk here. We want to take you behind the scenes of the hype, and the instant deliciousness of the debut Experience and find out all the lows along with the highs. We're asking our guests to be candid, and to give us the warts and all of how it feels. And we don't know how it's gonna play out. But Katherine, Will her book end up on billboards at the airport? Will she hit the coveted top 10 On release? Will Hollywood come knocking? Or will As one writer attests the experience all be a little anticlimactic? subscribe via iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our website, the first time podcast.com or connect with us via Twitter and Instagram at the first time pod. And let us know about your first time and the questions you want answered. We look forward to getting into your ears. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Dr Erica Ball US classical music composer, violinist, pianist and educator S2 Ep38 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Erica Ball is a contemporary classical music composer, violinist, pianist and educator from Portland Maine, USA and a mother of 2 boys. Erica received her PhD in music composition from the University of Pennsylvania where she studied with Anna Weesner , Jim Primosch, and Jay Reise. Translating everyday life into music is at the heart of Erica whimsical and playful works. Inspired by the natural world, a childhood spent dreaming of becoming a ballerina, and studies of 20th-century American avant-garde music, Erica is equally at home writing lyrical melodies that sweep across an orchestra and collaborating with animators and circus dancers. With an affinity for layered complexity, Erica’s music portrays clouds building up on the horizon as a summer thunderstorm approaches or the busy sounds of passengers in a subway station. Erica's music has been performed by numerous ensembles including the Da Capo Chamber Players , the Daedalus Quartet , pianist Blair McMillen , the International Contemporary Ensemble , Network for New Music , and the American Symphony Orchestra . Her works have been heard across the country in Chicago, Boston, New York and Philadelphia, and internationally in Germany and New Zealand. Recent commissions include Riding the EL and The Spotted Lanternfly for Relâche, and a thread run through which was commissioned by a consortium of advanced youth orchestras to be premiered in spring 2020, and now postponed to 2022. In addition to her work as a composer, Erica remains active as a violinist, pianist, and educator with a special interest in bringing contemporary music to new audiences. Today we chat about the lack of representation of women in the classical music canon, the way that arts are undervalued in our culture and how amazing it is to have an artist mother who gets what you do. Connect with Erica Erica's music used throughout the episode with permission: war no more commissioned by Network for New Music 9 lives - performed by Daedalus Quartet révérence Let's Be Spoken mentorship Read about Irelands basic wage for artists Podcast - instagram / website When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to today's episode. Thanks for joining us. My guest today is Dr. Erica ball. Erica is a classical music composer, violinist pianist and educator from Portland, Maine in the USA, and a mother of two boys. Erica received her PhD in music composition from the University of Pennsylvania, where she studied with Anna Wizner Jim pre mush and J res. Translating everyday life into music is at the heart of Eric is whimsical and playful works. Inspired by the natural world, a childhood spent dreaming of becoming a ballerina, and studies of 20th century American avant garde music. Erica is equally at home writing lyrical melodies that sweep across an orchestra and collaborating with animators and circumstances. With an affinity for layered complexity. Eric is music portrays clouds building up on the horizon as a summer thunderstorm approaches or the busy sounds of passengers on a subway station. Eric is music has been performed by numerous ensembles including the capo Chamber Players, pianos, Blair McMillan, the International Contemporary ensemble, and the American Symphony Orchestra. Her works have been heard across the country in Chicago, Boston, New York and Philadelphia, and around the world in Germany and New Zealand. Today, we chat about the lack of representation of women in the classical music canon, the way that the arts are undervalued and underfunded in our culture, and how amazing it is to have an artist mother who just gets what you're doing. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Hello, Oh, yay. Good. It's nice to meet you, Alison. Lovely to meet you, too. Eric. It's lovely to have you on. Yeah. It's been it's been really interesting to listen to like past episodes. And like, there's definitely like common threads no matter where, like artists, moms are in the world. We're all kind of dealing with these same things. It's been really, it's been reassuring to know. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you're not the first person to say that that reassurance it's Yeah, certainly something that people gain from it. Sorry. That is really good. I'm really pleased that it's helpful and makes people feel like they're doing okay. You know, like, what they're going through is completely normal and they're not alone. So yeah, it's a good feeling. But yeah, so you're in Portland in my set right? It's Portland mean not Portland, Oregon. Yeah. I mean, there's another Portland Okay. I've got a Portland an hour down the road from us here and Oh, really? It's not very big though. It's not like hardly anyone lives there. But so what's the weather been like over there at the moment? We just got a big snowstorm. We got like six or seven inches on Friday. So this morning I was out cross country skiing with my kids in the woods and just got back from from a run on our icy roads. That's why I'm a little flush still. Yeah, definitely the middle of winter here. Yeah, cool. Oh, that's awesome. We don't get anywhere near that here. We don't get we don't get cold. It's just Yeah, that's what I love. I love asking people from around the world what the weather's like, because? Like you, you're a composer. Erica, how did you get into music when you first started out, I started playing instruments. And then I didn't get into composing until kind of late in the game. So in high school, I went to a wonderful program called the Walden school for young musicians. And it's a five week long program in New Hampshire, and it's specifically for young composers. So they were teaching a variety of things, musicianship music theory, but ultimately composing, and I had never really written a piece before. And I wanted to try it out. So one school gave me this opportunity. And then at the end of the five week program, your music is performed by like, some of the best musicians in from New York City often, and what a thrill to like, have written something as like a 16 year old and then to hear these like hot shots, play it on stage. It's like wow. And, and that's kind of what hooked me. And I, I kind of already had the realization that I was not going to have a career as like a performing musician, that just wasn't a thing for me. But I loved music so much, and composition seemed like, well, this is something that I can do that I also really love that I don't have to spend, you know, those like agonizing hours in the practice rooms, and like the audition circuit, and all that. Yeah. And then I went to college, and I was really fortunate that I studied with Joan tower, who's probably at least in the stage, she's one of the leading women composers. She's in her 80s. Now. So she's been doing it a long time, certainly one of the trailblazers for, for women in the classical music industry. And I was very fortunate, she kind of took me under her wing, and I was the only woman in the department writing music when I was there. So so that was really special. And then, after undergrad, I kind of decided that I was going to take one chance. And I said, I'll apply to one graduate school for composition. And then I applied to like, law schools as well. A totally different career path. And, and I got in, and I was like, well, the worst thing that happens is I waste four years of my life, doing something that I love, right? And then I can always still decide to go to law school. And I was very fortunate that the program that I got into at the University of Pennsylvania was a free ride. So like you, you do have to work you be a TA and all that jazz, but it wouldn't put me into debt to go to grad school. So So I went and then I've been composing ever since. So that's kind of my route into it. Yeah, yeah. It's funny how things work out. Isn't it? Like you had that law thing? I bet you would have been disappointed if you had to do law though. Like you would have been? Yeah, probably. So What instruments do you play? So I play piano, as you can see here with my giant baby grand that takes up half the room. So I play piano and violin. I started piano when I was like, two or three years old and violin shortly thereafter. And I still am very active playing I don't really love to perform. But I do a lot of studio teaching. So besides composing, teach a lot of kids and adults piano and violin as well. Yeah. So you're very busy. Music is your is your whole life, basically. Yeah. That's so good. I love it was looking on your website and all the different sort of styles of music that you've composed for. Which is really cool. I used to be in I used to do a vocal group. So I'm used to like SSA and SSAA because I was with with females, and every now and then we'd get to do an essay T Baker's, we'd join up with a with a men's group and it was so exciting. So I was looking at you like you do vocal, which is really cool. And chamber music and orchestral music and also Are for individual instruments as well. So you basically do everything really. Yeah, as I mean, a lot of composers, you know, kind of write for all different types of instrumentations. There's, there's some that have managed to kind of find their niche and like just write vocal music or just write opera or the rare composer these days that can kind of make a living just reading orchestral pieces. But for most of us, it's kind of you just got to write for whoever's willing to play your music, and sometimes it's an orchestra, and sometimes it's a solo performer. So really doing everything. Yeah. Do you have a favorite like a preference that you like to write for? It's a good question. I love writing for strings. As a violinist, myself, so strings is probably one of my favorites. piano is even the less the other instrument that I play is very intimidating. Because there's, there's so many possibilities with it. And there's so much repertoire, right. So there's, there's so much history of the instrument. But I did just finish up a suite of piano preludes. And I got, I got pretty excited once I was into them, and writing them. And then right now, I'm going to be getting started on a piece for string quartet and piano. So piano quintet. So that'll that'll be an interesting challenge. I love writing for strings. I've written a couple of string quartets before, but now I'm going to have that challenge of integrating the piano into the ensemble. So do you get your work from people that commissioned you to do work? Is that part of what you do? Yeah, so right now, I've been able to sort of cobbled together a bunch of consortium Commission's. So I kind of asked people I know, friends, colleagues, friends of friends, would you be interested in joining this consortium, and basically, it's a way of sort of having these performers pool their resources to pay me to write for them. So it's not so much of a big ask for them, but I still get paid fairly for my work. So the first time I did this was with three different youth orchestras in the Philadelphia area, which is where I was originally from and up until a year ago. And we had three years of youth orchestras to in Philadelphia when Houston, Texas, just sort of people that I knew, and they pooled their resources together, I wrote a piece for them. And so since then, I've sort of developed this consortium model. And I did that with the piano preludes that I just finished up writing and the piano quintet that I'm about to get started on is also a consortium commission. Yeah, cool. That's a great idea. I love that idea. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of came up with yourself? Or is that something that sort of is fairly recognized that goes on? I think it's it's becoming more of a thing. There are definitely some other composers who are doing it and certainly, like at the orchestral level, you know, if an orchestra is going to commission a composer, oftentimes they do consortiums, so that way that composer gets like an East Coast premiere and a West Coast premiere so you try to make sure that your players are not all in New York City and kind of stepping on each other's toes when they premiere the piece. But I think it's becoming a more common model which is great because otherwise the only way you get your music played is if you win these competitions and they're they're really hard to get and you know, there's lots of problems with the competitions themselves way they're organized, are they equitable? Are they are they discriminatory against certain groups of people so yes model is really working for me the concessions Yeah good. Listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I wanted to ask about the protect some of the titles of your pieces. There's a couple that have sort of got like two meanings or hidden meanings in them. We're example this one. It's called the resilient sound but then through the use of brackets says the silence sound is that if I got that, right, I interpreted that right. Yeah, so I love word games. I love anagrams and Scrabble and all that kind of stuff and um, I've always been really interested in the poetry of E. Cummings and the interesting things that he does like with the shapes of the words on the page, and just the way that you can can play with words and like you said, create sort of double meanings using parentheses or brackets. So, yeah, I have played around with some interesting titles of my own. And that one was sort of like playing around with the word resilient, but yet there's the word silent in it. And those two can kind of go against each other in terms of their meaning. So playing around with the dualities contained within those words. Yeah. So it's like you can send your own sort of message through the music, but then also through that title, you sort of get people thinking about the deeper meaning behind things. I suppose it's not just, you know, it's not just maybe as they expect it is. There's more going on. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, and with, with contemporary classical music, you know, most people if they're, if they're going to a chamber music concert, and they see like, a composer on the piece that they don't composer on the program, they don't recognize, like, Oh, what is this is it going to be weird sounds that I don't understand. And so anything that I as a composer can give them to sort of latch on to to help them derive meaning from the piece, I find helps with the overall reception of the work. So if it's if it's an intriguing title, if it's a title that has some scene depicted in it, or has some emotional content it gives, it sort of sets the stage for them when they're listening. And I also I don't know, if you saw some of the artwork that's on my website, like the colors of my pieces. My My mother is an artist, and she is always graciously donated her art or some sometimes I've been fortunate enough to be able to, to pay her for her artwork. But it graces the covers of my scores. And I think that that visual element is really important for the performers as well, because they're playing it for the first time. Yep. And to have like a visual representation of the piece as a way into the interpretation of IQ be really helpful. Yeah, helps just to sort of set the mood for them of where this is, where this is coming from, and how it's to be sort of interpreted and presented, I guess. Yeah, I love that. And also, I think it's cool that it's sort of like you've got your own sort of niche in that way that people will remember. Like you said, people that might not know you, or they'll go oh, that's that. That's that lady that makes the call, like titles and like, you know what I mean? Like people connect to that with you and remember will remember you for that. I don't know I just thought that as you were saying. Yeah, I love on your website, your sort of motto, like translating everyday life into music. I think it's just such a I know it sounds simplistic, but it's such a it's a huge way of describing music, isn't it? It's like, it's, it's just that normal everyday things that happened to us, but they can be turned into this incredible piece or incredible painting or incredible body of work. It's just, I really love that analogy. Yeah, thanks. It took me a long time to figure that out that that's what a lot of my music is about. Because in when you think of like the Canon, and like Bach and Beethoven and all these, like great composers that we hold up as like genius, white European men, and we put them on a pedestal. And like, that's, that's not what my music is about. And, you know, it's me going on a run and hearing the sound of water as it hits like ice in a stream and makes this like really interesting tinkly kind of sound that's not quite pitched, but has some pitch to it and has an irregularity and then going to the piano and seeing if I can recreate that like that. That's what the music is about to me. Or it's about. I have a string quartet that's kind of about different episodes and a cat's life. Yeah, and yeah, and one of them. A couple of the movements are about napping because cats nap all the time. And, and they all are derived from children's lullaby eyes. So there's one that centers on Twinkle, twinkle, and there's a different napping movement that centers on taps. And you know, they don't, they're not going to hear them that way. But those are like the bits of material that I pulled from them. Because I was, you know, getting ready to have my own kids and thinking a lot about what it would mean to be a mom, and you know, what songs I was going to sing to my children. And, and that's where the music came from. It wasn't some like grand idea about what it means to be a sleeping cat. It was just sort of banal kind of inspiration. Yeah. Yeah. I think at some level, I think. I don't know. It's like that. I don't know how to word it now. People like because I write my rap music, just like as a song singer, songwriter, and people like, how did you get that idea? What did you do? And most of my stuff comes like, similarly, like, I'd be out for a walk. And I just, I don't know, just get a tune in my head or, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot simpler than what people think. I think, like, I don't want to make it seem that it's super easy. But inspiration comes from everywhere. Like it's all around us all the time. And it's just, it is part of, like, life just comes into you what you're creating. I know that sounds like I really dumbed it down and really simplified it, but I don't know that's exactly what it is. Yeah, it's just always there for us if we can be open to it, I suppose. And look at things through different eyes and for years and, you know, interpret things differently. I loved how you just said genius, white European men. It's I feel like there's there's there's more of a conversation to be had. Yes. Is it? I'm not in the I'm not in the classical world is that is that still what people want is that what they're drawn to? Is that what people are still sort of holding us that? I don't know, the marker of unfortunately, the classical music industry is decades, if not hundreds of years behind the rest of the world. And, and it's, it's in recent years, probably within like the last in the last two years, especially with the pandemic but also within like the last five to 10 years, there has been a real awakening and a real beginning to reckon with the past of the history of classical music and how you know, history is always written written by the winners, but people who have the power by the people who are in charge and so we have Bach, we have Beethoven, we have Debussy, we have Revell, we are missing all the women, not to mention all the musics from different cultures, or the musics that, you know, were were popular but weren't part of like the religious order. Because a lot of classical music comes out of the church music and comes from that patronage model. And so it's a real problem within the classical music industry. And thankfully, the industry is starting to recognize it as a problem and starting to change. But there's, we're kind of straddling, at least I'm finding straddling these generations of, you know, there's some older musicians who don't want to change and don't want the industry to change. And then there's a really strong cohort of younger musicians who want to be the solution and want to make real fundamental changes, to make things more equitable, to be rewriting history to include composers like Amy beach like Florence price, like Margaret bonds. And it's it's really important to me that that is also a part of my work as a living female composer. So in my own studio, when I'm teaching students, I make sure that everyone's always playing a piece by woman composer, not allowed to just play music that's by Bach and Beethoven. Yeah, it's it's a real problem. And, and I think it's for people who aren't in the industry, it can kind of come as a shock, because so much of the world has become accustomed to sort of recognizing talent wherever it exists, and not just sort of in these siloed areas. But it's a it's a big problem in our industry. Hmm. Is the audience sort of driving change as well? Did they want it? Are they wanting to hear new things? Is that are they sort of hungry for that? I don't know modernization of the of the what's the word I don't know, relation of the canon. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I? That's a really interesting question because I think it depends on which part of the audience we're talking about. Yeah. And I have found that, that older generations off often are a little bit more resistant to this change or to, to hearing pieces that are new or being premiered. But I think there's, if you present new music in the right way, if you kind of set it up, if you give people information if you play a piece more than once, because you might not like Beethoven the first time you hear it, but because it's played so often, it's a part of our popular culture we hear in Looney Tunes, because it's sort of everywhere we end up gravitating towards it. And I think there's a lot to be said for how new music is presented to an audience that can then make them fall in love with it. And I think I think audiences are more and more becoming interested in hearing new music by hearing music by people who are living now and music that responds to our times. Absolutely. Just on that, too, I noticed there was a piece that you've written, it was like a, sorry, I can't remember exactly what context it was in. But it was a retelling I suppose re imagining of Down by the riverside of war no more, which I thought was really cool. Knowing the words to and everything else. Oh, that is really cool. I just thought then, as we're talking about current stuff, like that's, I don't know, I mean, what's going on right now, with Russia and Ukraine? It's like, there could be, there's so many pieces that could be like people could hear now that relate to what's happening now. You know, why do we have to keep listening to stuff that doesn't sort of align with our current political climate or social climate? Like, doesn't sound familiar chain? Why does that mean, we have to keep hearing it over and over again, and like we hear it when we're on hold on the phone or hear it on a background of a commercial? Like, why? Why is that so important to us to keep hearing it? You know? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. It's a definite thing. I mean, you think of like popular music, they they move on, right, that was popular last year is not popular this year. And that's kind of part of the excitement of it. And in the classical music world, we like haven't moved on from like, the past 200 years, yet. We're still trying to make progress. It's very interesting. Yeah. Says it's very interesting. I wonder if it's other night, I'm gonna draw a long bow here. The amount of money that people make out of the pop music industry, is it because it's driven? It's a It's, what's the word? It's a commercialized entity. So they're always trying to pump out new things and make more money? I don't know. Is that Is that a fair thing to say? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe? Maybe it's part of it. I mean, if you think classical music at one point for certain populations was the popular music of the time. Yeah. And it's just kind of become this like, niche tiny little corner of the music industry now. But you're, you're changing that. So that is awesome. I love that. So you mentioned so we are gonna get your children at some point. You mentioned that you're you're a teacher as well. That I love how you said you make sure there's some feet, there's always like a female composers work that people are working on. Do you find that? The I guess it's gonna be the same as the last question about the audience depending on age. But are your students wanting new pieces? Are they looking for the stuff they've never heard before to play? Or are they still going back to the old, faithful sort of? Yeah. Most of my students don't realize before they come to me that there is new music out there. They just want to learn how to play the piano or the violin, and usually that's through some exposure that they've had to classical music in general. And I think it's when they encounter me and I'm like, I write music. I am a composer. Oh, what is that? What does that sound like? And you know, I've I've yet have a student who doesn't like that, about me as a teacher that I'm that I'm actively creating music, and I will frequently play my own music for my students. So when I was working on the piano preludes, I actually played some rough drafts for students. And I asked them like, well, what descriptive word comes to mind, because I can't figure it out. And it was kind of helping them, helping them give me some ideas for the piece. And they loved that to sort of have a window into the process and to know what was going on. And as far as exposing them to different types of music, I still am very much like a classical Lee trained musician. So that's, that's what I teach. I don't teach jazz improvisation because that's not my thing. I don't know how to do it. But I am very careful that I'm incorporating music from outside the traditional canon. So, for example, female composers, not just current female composers, but historical female composers that aren't sort of in most of the anthologies that we find when we're teaching sort of graded piano studies. Yes, that's another way to expose them to it. Yeah, fantastic. Oh, good for you. That's so awesome to hear. Alright, let's get to your family then. How many children do you have? Tell me a little bit? I have two little boys. I have a almost six year old and a three year old. Yeah, cool. I've got a six year old. It's a good time a life Baby six, zero. It is it so they into your meeting, they play music, they sort of come in and hang on your beautiful piano. They do like to bang on the piano. I also have you can't see it. It's off screen here. But I have a cupboard filled with like hand percussion different things. Boomwhackers which are these like big plastic tubes that you whack on the ground and it makes up a rough sounding pitch. tambourine, tambourines, maracas, egg shakers, they love going in there and having family band time. And it's quite amazing the amount of cacophony that they can create. And I can actually sit at my desk and tune it all out and do work. And they'll be sitting here on the floor, just making a racket, but it keeps them busy for a good 20 minutes. So if I have to deal with the noise, I will Oh, JC do well. And it's sort of I think, like, energetically, it's sort of, you know, it's, it's getting so much energy through their body as well. Like, I don't know, I work in childcare. So I'm used to seeing children go completely bonkers. And then completely flat. So just massive buildup of energy. There's like, oh, no, do your kids do the same sort of thing? Oh, yes. All of the day is always like, get them as tired as possible. So they sleep, and they go to bed early and stay asleep. So with those ages of, of your boys, when do you do your work? Is it sort of an evening thing? Or are they in care, so you can actually do what you need to do. So right now, I also so I do all different things. So I'm currently working a full time job as an arts administrator. So I'm sort of running all the administrative stuff for a professional string quartet here in Maine. So that's what I am doing roughly like the nine to five hours. So I have fortunately a lot of flexibility because I'm working from home for that. And then I teach about eight hours of studio a week so that students who come come to my home and I teach them piano and violin. And then somewhere in there I squeezed in my composition, often times, it's like really early in the morning, or it's late at night. Or the nice thing about composing as opposed to practicing an instrument is that I don't have to be physically at my instrument to do it. So like I'll be out in a run and I'll be thinking about the music and kind of testing out ideas in my head. So so I'm able to do it kind of squeezed in there. I'm also really fortunate that my partner is very supportive of my creativity and he'll take the kids out of the house on the weekend for a cup have hours and I'll get like a big chunk of time where I can really work. But no set schedule unfortunately, just happens when it happens. Do you find that happen after you come back from your run, and you've got these ideas to actually come back in and either notated or recorded onto something, because you're coming back into the like mum role is that you find that it's so hard to switch between the different roles and to be constantly interrupted. I think that's probably what drives me more nights is when I'm in the middle of composing, you know, maybe I'm like writing something at the piano while they're eating breakfast. Because they, most of the time, can eat peacefully. And one of them will come running in here, I need some more milk or whatever the problem happens to be. And it's like, oh, there goes the idea. It's just gone. Poof out of my head. But I've gotten into the habit of leaving myself video recordings as little messages. So if I'm going to sit down at the piano, and I know there's even a chance I might get interrupted, I'll just hit record. And that way, anything that I play anything that I've been kind of talking to myself out loud through giving myself ideas, at least I have a record of it, and I can kind of get back into that moment via the video recording. Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's Oh, my gosh, I'm feeling the pain there. i Yeah, I think interruptions is probably the thing that frustrates me the most really, it's just, you're on a roll. And then it's like, I need some cheese, oh. You're saying earlier about when you were writing the cat piece, when you were thinking about what it would be like to be mother? Can you expand on that a little bit more about sort of how you were feeling when you knew your life was about to change completely. So I, we very sort of deliberately made the decision like, Okay, we're going to have kids. And it came apart mostly because I so after grad school, I went on the job market for one year. And I got I got a couple of interviews, I got to the final round for when an interview offers sort of tenure track composition or theory professors in the university and went through that whole process and realize that it was either going to take a really long time and multiple years of doing this whole kind of circus to find the right position for me. Or I would have to do a series of visiting assistant professorships, where you get hired for one year, maybe two years at an institution, and then you leave and you go somewhere else. Or I would never get a position. And none of those options really sounded good to me. They don't have stability, it's a lot of sort of giving up a lot of your life for these academic institutions that who knows how they're going to treat you. And then then you also have the tenure clock, right. So even if you did land, a tenure track position, you're on the tenure clock, not a great time to be having kids, it's already stressful enough. And I made the decision that that wasn't the life for me. And I would rather have my kids young and maybe give up that dream of teaching in a university and have my kids young and get them out of the house while I'm young too. Because, you know, the composing if I had to stop for a couple of years, which I did when my kids were were very young, I didn't there were a couple of years, but I just didn't write a single note. I'd rather do that then and then have the rest of my life to do the creative stuff. It will always be there. So yeah, yeah, it was like an actual decision of how I want my life to be. Yeah, so when you said how you didn't write a note were you playing it all was like music still a part of your life during the very much so playing that I found that so i i graduated grad school and had a couple months off, and then ended up pregnant with number one. And I was teaching as an adjunct during the pregnancy and we had just bought a house and moved in. So there was like a lot of stuff going on. Being homeowners fixing up the house and dealing with morning sickness adjunctive and a couple of classes dealing with that still kind of trying to apply to some jobs and, and composition just kind of fell by the wayside. And I think part of that was also related to how intense graduate school is. is just the amount of work and the amount of pressure that you're under. And I really rushed to finish my dissertation as quickly as possible because I didn't want to. I didn't want to be in the position where I would lose my funding, but still have to finish my dissertation. Yeah. So I really pushed to finish it while I still had funding. And I was just kind of burnt out. I was, yeah, it was done for a little while. And, and I was being creative. And other things, I found that, you know, learning, there's so much education that you have to do when you're pregnant, just learning about what's going on with your body learning about okay, what is it going to be like to be a mom? How am I going to prepare myself for this? So there were other things going on, that felt somewhat creative, and I was still constantly playing music, and I was playing the community orchestra and playing with friends and still teaching a lot. So music has always been there, just the composition stop for a few years? Yeah, that's understandable. It's like you just can't do everything. Exactly. And even if you know, you have the time to do it, it'd be like, we actually need to rest at some point, don't you like you just can't, I mean, some people probably do, but I know myself, you just cannot push through because you just need to fill up at some point yes. When you are writing your pieces, you talked about getting influence from everywhere? Do you find that your children influence your composing? Sometimes, I think more than anything, it's their curiosity and watching them, watching them learn watching how they interact with the world that has, in some ways given me permission to do the same. And like that moment that I was describing earlier, whereas on a run, I heard the water stream and the ice, I don't think I would have necessarily noticed that before kids. I think I think parts of me have always been in tune with just sort of listening in a way that maybe non musicians don't, because music is such a part of my life. But I'm not sure if I would have stopped. And I literally stopped on the side of the trail, and just kind of stood there listening to it. And then I was playing with a stick in the stream. And I don't know that I would have done that if I didn't have kids just sort of this permission to engage with the world in a more childlike sense of curiosity. I think that's more than anything, how they've sort of inspired and worked their way into my music. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I feel like as adults, we sort of feel like we have to behave in a certain way. And like, when you were talking there about stopping, I remember one day I'd stopped while it was walking, and I stopped to look at these flowers. And someone drove personnel like, what do you do? Like, you know, yeah, you know, I had a sledge at me. And I was like, I'm looking at the flowers, like, you know, what's the big? You know, I think, I don't know, somewhere in adult life. It's sort of like, No, you're not allowed to be playful, and you know, that anymore. It's like, you have to be serious and grown up now. I feel like being an artist or a creative person, you sort of have to have that in a real what would you be inspired by it? Like, you know, that just you have to be curious and, and stop and play with sticks. You know? Just, it's just part of life. I don't know. It's it's a very interesting thing. And the more I talk to artistic moms, it's like, there's this thread that goes through that you you are different in a really good way like you you don't necessarily have these hang ups about what people that judge you or people can worry about things and I don't know it's just a different way of looking at life. I don't know maybe I'm speaking for myself, but I don't know I just think I don't know I'm going off on babbling Vietnam so there was there was sort of a in the back of my head when I stopped on the trail. This is like busy trails through our woods were in the city so people are walking their dogs and stuff. There was a part of me that that kind of said, what if someone comes down the trail you're gonna be the adult on the side of the trail playing with sticks in the stream and like tapping the ice to see what kind of sound it makes. Like so what Yeah, so what they see me like it drag myself and like experimenting and being curious. And they'll probably just walk right past me. Yeah, maybe though maybe they'll be curious and ask what I'm doing. But probably they'll just walk right past. Yeah, there you go. I love it so there's a thing that we talk about in Australia a lot. And I'm finding that it's it is quite a worldwide phenomenon, this mum guilt. And I put that in inverted commas. What's your thoughts on mum guilt? Oh, boy. I think it it's a very real thing. And I think it's, it's something that's been constructed by our culture's and by our society, I don't think it's a, an innate part of being a human mother. But I think at this point, it is because of the culture and the societies that we're in. And it's, it's torturous, and it's, it's not something that I that I think, a lot of men experience. And I'm sure there are some that experience, you know, some version of this, like parental parental guilt, but I think there's something there's something special about being a mom experiencing it, just because of all of the different expectations that are put on women. And, and it's definitely something that I've wrestled with, and within the classical music industry, you know, there's, it's taken a long time for orchestras to accept women as violinists and their sections. So, you know, within my lifetime, the Vienna Philharmonic, for example, like wouldn't allow women to play in the ensemble. Oh, and so, you know, there's sort of discrimination writ large against women, let alone women who might be mothers like that full embodiment of being a woman. And so there's sort of the industry and women's place within it. But then there's also like, the family and the home life and that feeling like if you're, if you have any spare moment that's free. It should be like devoted to your kids and your family. And it's really hard to then say, No, I don't have to go and do that thing. Or it's okay for me to miss bedtime and be composing because that is also important to me. Yeah, I mean, for example, I've, I've been to concerts, and by myself and people who knew me, and they would sit, you know, make remarks like, Oh, you're missing bedtime. I'm so glad you came to the concert. Like, I'm so sorry. You had to miss bedtime. And like, I love missing bedtime. It is my least favorite part of day. I am so glad to be here. My husband is perfectly capable of putting our children to bed. Yeah, he does it most days, even if I'm home. Yeah, isn't that it's just interesting. Have the judgment. People just assume that it's like, that's what you should be doing your mom, that's what you should be doing. Like, hello, they have two parents like, exactly. Ah, it really frustrates me. And comments like that. They just don't go very far to help. You know, it's like, it sets you back. If you've if you've got if you were feeling a little bit funny, like, ah, you know, I probably wanted to do this or that or the other. And you got no, I'm going to do this. It's okay. And then someone makes a comment. And it just drags you straight back into that. Oh, no, I should have done that. Because now everyone thinks I'm a bad mother and bla bla bla. You know, exactly. There's a lot to be said for, for how other people's comments. How much of an impact it makes on moms. And yeah, I don't know. Yes, it's a big frustrating topic. That one really has really struggled with them. But I'd love to hear you say it's okay for me, for me to miss bedtime. Because there's other things that are important to you. It's like, I don't know. And you're right. It's hard to like even if you've made yourself a priority, and you've kind of laid aside the mom guilt and you've been able to engage with the activity. Those comments are so hurtful, because they regenerate that guilt with inside yourself, even if you've been able to successfully overcome it. And it's sort of like always lurking there in the background just like I am, I should be with my kids. or more, you know, like sort of the more simple guilt that's not even directly pertaining to your craft as an artist. Things like, Oh, I didn't pack them a perfect lunch, like I just threw stuff in their lunchbox, and I didn't write them a note on Valentine's Day. I just like, you know, that kind of thing. And there are these ridiculous expectations that moms are held up to. And I think it also helps to kind of find your tribe of moms, I have a couple of good mom, friends who they know that my house is a mess. They know that my laundry lives on my bedroom floor for a couple of days before it ever gets put away. And they're cool with it, because they also do the same thing. And it's about sort of letting down that facade of being like this perfect woman and just saying, like, No, I fail all the time in my household duties and taking care of my kids and my professional line, like I am not perfect, and have other women who can be comfortable with you and say the same thing is really, it's really heartening. And it it really helps the overall situation. Oh, yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. It's like, you just don't feel you feel quite comfortable just to be yourself and to you don't have to feel like you're gonna be judged by them. Like, you're all in it together. It's not a competition, exactly. And the other thing I love to talk about is identity about how your own identity changed. When you had your children when you became a mum, did you sort of go through a shift in that regard? Yes, because the composition kind of stopped for a good three years in there. And, and it was something I worried about, like am I ever gonna be able to write again, and maybe all my creative energy is just going into raising my kids. And that's where it's going to be. And I felt kind of lost. And I felt like I lost a part of myself for a while. And even even though I was making music and teaching and still engaged with the music community, it didn't feel the same, it didn't feel the same as creating myself and as actually composing. And it it took a lot of a lot of work to get back into composing a lot of fear a lot of judging myself, like, what if you were never any good at this to begin with, and it's gonna be so hard. And it actually the so the first piece I think I wrote after the birth of my second was a piece of music that my grandfather asked me to write. So my grandfather, had studied piano with me for a couple of years, when I was in Philadelphia, and that was, it was always really special to have these lessons with him. And he, he had this passage from a song that he wanted me to set to music. And and I took I took on the challenge didn't have anyone prepared to sing it. I was like, Okay, I'll just, this is an exercise for me. And I'll see if I can do this again. And I wrote this piece and ended up ended up getting performed at St. Davids church in Baltimore. But that was sort of the the baby step that I took back into composition. And I was also really fortunate that my, my mom is an artist. And I think there's something really special about having a mom who's an artist who is so supportive of my own creativity. And I'm sure that moms are supportive of creative daughters in all sorts of ways. But to have someone who's lived it themselves, is it's probably one of the best things that I have going for me because she knows how important it is. She knows how hard it is to place the priority on my creative work. And sort of right when I started getting back into composing, she would take my kids for a couple of hours during the week and she would say you are not allowed to clean your house hours, you are not allowed to go grocery shopping. I want to hear what you have done for you during those few hours. And to have to have that sort of account forced accountability. Really sort of got me back on the track of composing Again, and to test someone to see the value in what you're doing as well. So I've talked to some mums who have their their in laws, or even their own parents have sort of seen it as fluffing about, like, you're just, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's like, there's a lot of emphasis emphasis placed on the monetary value of what you're doing. And it's like, well, you're not really, you're not really working. So it's not that important. You know what I mean? Like, it's a real, it's a real, whole new ballgame when people don't see the value in what you're actually creating and adding to society and culture. And, you know, yeah, yeah, that that is a huge problem. And I mean, I don't know what it's like in Australia for how like arts funding works. But here in the States, it is, it is a mess in the United States. I know a couple of the countries in Europe have slightly better models and a little bit more support for musicians in the classical industry, but the way that arts are undervalued in our culture, and yet, so much money is made off of them, like in the pop music, industry, streaming services and all of the sort of exploitation that goes on. Yeah, absolutely. We have a big issue in Australia that that was certainly brought out through the whole pandemic situation that the sport, the sport side of Australia kept going, they made allowances for, like the footy teams to travel interstate, even though people weren't supposed to be traveling and everything kept going, except the arts. And people were just, you know, obviously losing their incomes, everything was falling to pieces. And it still hasn't been fully addressed that what happened to like, literally, arts are everywhere, like television, and radio, and everything that we pick up and use is being created by someone in some way. And it's like, we just don't value it. We just don't see the importance of it in our culture. And it's really, this is me off. Sorry. All this time, the free like people had concert scheduled to travel around Australia, but they couldn't because the the borders were closed. But yet hundreds of football players were traveling wherever they wanted to, and just like come on, really, really show the huge divide between what what are our culture values? incredibly disappointing. Yeah, it was interesting. You said about the different places in Europe I saw on the telly the other day that island might be might be introducing just like a universal income for artists. Yeah. God, how amazing would that be like, it would just you would just have the freedom to create, you wouldn't have to worry about how you're going to, you know, pay the bills or whatever, you can just imagine the explosion that's going to happen creativity in that area, just be amazing. mentioned all the people who leave the arts, so many talented, amazing artists, musicians, dancers, playwrights, they leave the arts because you can't make a living in it. And they're, you know, there's a point in your life where you have to decide, do I want to start a family and if I'm going to start a family, I want to be financially stable, and what does that mean for my creative practice? And I was really fortunate that, you know, my, my partner is a public school teacher, you know, neither of us are ever going to be no wealthy in our lifetime, but he has a stable job, he has really good health insurance. And so like the pressure was thankfully never on me to provide, you know, the big income and health insurance for our family. But, you know, I know I know plenty of couples who both of them are musicians and that is it's an incredibly hard life just because there's no stability within our industry. Yeah. Yep. And I've seen lots of people leave as a result which is you know, it's it's detrimental to all of us because we're losing out on on their talents and what talents they could pass on to students. You Yeah, yeah. The whole the whole industry is just poor for unfortunately. Yeah. I'm getting wound up just so frustrating to you Well, I have had some some interesting experiences recently with other women, composers reaching out to me primarily, you know, people who are like out of undergrad not necessarily in graduate school or, or are coming back to music after leaving a different career path behind. And I think there's a lack of meant During in our industry, women mentoring other women. And like I was very fortunate, I studied with John Tower. And when I went to graduate school I studied with Anna Wiesner. So you know, I've studied with these other women composers, but there's a lack of community. And I think it's important for for young women in particular, to be able to have conversations with, with someone and be able to talk about things like, you know, if I take this job overseas and move to, you know, move to a different country for a couple of years, because I'm following my boyfriend and I want to be with him. What does that mean for my career as a musician, and that's probably a conversation that a young woman might not be comfortable having with a male figure. They might be, you know, concerned whether they're going to be judged for that decision or whatnot. So, so that's been kind of interesting. And I definitely don't have the bandwidth for it right now. But I think in the in the future, I would, I would love to start some type of mentorship program specifically for for women, composers who are kind of like on the cusp of that sort of professional becoming a professional composer, they've left school behind. They've done all that all that hard work. And now it's how do I make this into a living for myself? How do I, if I'm going to start a family? How do I navigate that and my career at the same time? That's yeah, that is so great, you should definitely do that. I got I gotta wait a couple more years, I gotta get both kids in grade school. I have a few more hours in the day. But eventually, eventually, that's so valuable. That's just incredible. On that, though, did you have anyone around you that you could sort of lead off with the children side of things was there anyone in your sort of circle that was doing the same sort of thing as you, um, none of my musician friends had kids when I started having kids. So I was definitely kind of the odd one out there. And, and in grad school, I was the only woman in the program for quite some time. So there wasn't even someone going through grad school at the same time as me who was dealing with these issues. I have plenty of women friends outside of music, who have kids and families. But I think I think a lot of musicians wait until later on to start families because of that lack of financial stability. And I had a lot of help when our kids were young. My parents were in the same town as us. And as I mentioned before, my mom really recognized the need for me to still have some space to myself, even if my primary role at the time was staying home and taking care of the kids. So I've always had lots of family support with child care. Because that's the other thing in the United States, there's no child care via the government. You gotta wait until your kids are public school age, and then you can get rid of them for nine months of the year. Did I really just say get rid of them. I meant we can overlay save them goodbye, tearfully at the bus stop and welcome them home with a hug. You know, there's, there's no, there's no support for for families and for kids when they're preschool age. So thankfully, I've had family because sending my kids to daycare or childcare would have been a sort of a reckless financial decision to make because any money that I would have made, would have been completely negated by paying for childcare. So yeah, so that's kind of how I've had navigated the young, the young children thing and dealing with that and being creative at the same time. Yeah, I can definitely imagine people are gonna hear this and definitely get some take something from it. And I, I really hope that you do do your mentoring, because that's just so valuable. We'll just keep it'll keep the creative, everything going and people won't have to. And I think when you said about before about asking a man, a man's got such different opinions on that stuff, like they're not going to get, they're just going to get told some rubbish, you know, sorry. Yeah. It's not to say it's not and, and I'm sure there are wonderful, you know, male composers out there who would be great mentors for a young woman. But, you know, at least in my experience, there's something different about, you know, women's speaking to other women. And I just, well, I haven't quite finished up this program yet, but I've been fortunate to be mentored myself by it. To wonderful men as part of let's be spoken, which is a mentorship program specifically for women in the classical and jazz industry. And that that was really key in sort of getting my composing and my professional career back on track. And to realize in these big group sessions that we would have with all of us and the two leaders, Gina, and I wouldn't be, we would kind of come to these realizations that we're all struggling with these same things like, Oh, I have to do publicity photos. And I like how do I want those to look and it's so hard as a woman versus like, a man just throws on a suit and take some photos, and he's good to go. Women were like, is this going to be sexy? Is this going to make me appear sweet? Is this going to influence how people hear my music because it's just different as a woman. And And that program was really helpful. So there definitely are mentorship programs for women in the industry. But I am excited to eventually start something specifically for, for women to talk one on one with someone who's like cobbled together a career in composition, because it's so different than being a performer. Because that the model for how you create your income is just not there. 30 there's very little institutional support for it. Versus a performer, you can join an ensemble, you can be part of an orchestra, you can you can create your own tours, right? You don't even have to have management to do that. Whereas a composer, if my musics going to have a life, other people are going to be playing it. And that takes a lot of behind the scenes effort to make happen. Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's like there's not there's not a model that says, This is how you do it. You do this and then you do that. And then it's done. Like it's just yeah. Yeah, there you go. Now Good on you. I really enjoyed chatting with you, Eric. It's been a real pleasure talking with you. And I have missed bedtime. So thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interesting. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Alex McLaughlin Canadian acrylic and watercolour artist, S2 Ep36 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I welcome Alex McLaughlin to the podcast, Canadian acrylic and watercolour artist and mum of 2 boys from Midland Ontario. Raised in Honey Harbour on Georgian Bay , Alex was fortunate enough to have a childhood full of love and opportunity. Her summers can be best characterized by exploration, swimming, boating, and working for the family business. Having the opportunity to be on the water nearly every day since she was born has never been something she has never taken for granted. After working as a paramedic on the streets of Toronto for many years, Alex felt the pull to return to her childhood home, and now lives there with her husband and 2 boys. She now focuses solely on her art, working out of her home studio which allows her to to maximize precious painting time and be the present mother she has always wanted to be. Put simply, Alex feels like she is now doing what she was always meant to be doing. Ever since Alex was little, her grandmother encouraged her to practice and appreciate the arts as a way to document her life. Alex is a predominately self taught artist, but after taking a watercolour course by local Canadian artist John Hartman everything seemed to make sense for her and allowed her to explore her local area with a new set of eyes. Recently, Alex created her first-ever painting series that is very close to her heart: Georgian Bay Reflections . Using vibrant colour and layered brush strokes, Alex feels her way through each piece until its depth and composition are reminiscent of this special place that was, is and always will be home. Through the power of her expressionism artform, Alex's hope for us is to be reminded of how the simple and natural things in life are the most beautiful. In a world that seems to be evolving faster than ever before, Most of all her wish is to have us stop and experience, even just for a moment, the beauty of life translated through art. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety, OCD and depression** Visit Alex's website The Massasauga Rattler Snake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGW3MSt8nJI Beam Paints https://www.beampaints.com/ is the paint company Alex mentioned who she found making water colour paints locally. Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I welcome Alex McLaughlin to the podcast. Alex is a Canadian acrylic and watercolor artist and a mum of two boys from Midland Ontario. Raised in honey Harbor on Georgian Bay, Alex was fortunate enough to have a childhood full of love and opportunity. His summers can be best described by exploration, swimming, boating, and working for the family business. Having the opportunity to be on the water nearly every day since she was born has never been something she's taken for granted. After working as a paramedic on the streets of Toronto for many years, Alex felt the pull to return to her childhood home and now lives there with her husband and two boys. She focuses solely on her art working out of her home studio, which allows her to maximize precious painting time and be the present mother she's always wanted to be. Put simply, Alex feels like she's now doing what she was always meant to be doing. Ever since Alex was little, her grandmother encouraged her to practice and appreciate the arts as a way to document her life. Alex is a predominantly self taught artist. But after taking a watercolor course by local Canadian artists, John Hartman, everything seemed to make sense for her and allowed her to explore her local area with a new set of eyes. Recently, Alex created her first ever painting series that is very close to her heart, entitled Georgian Bay reflections. Using vibrant color and layered brushstrokes. Alex feels her way through each piece until its depth and composition are reminiscent of the special place that was is and always will be her home through the power of her expressionist art form. Alex's hope for us is to be reminded of how the simple and natural things in life are the most beautiful in a world that seems to be evolving faster than ever before. Most of all, her wish is to have a stop and experience even for just a moment. The beauty of life translated through art. This episode contains discussion around anxiety, OCD, and depression. Thanks so much for coming on today. Alex. It's such a pleasure to meet you all the way from Canada today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. Absolutely. It's such a pleasure. So tell us whereabouts you are in Canada. So I live in Midland, Ontario on Georgian Bay. It's a it's a massive Bay off of Lake Huron, one of the Great Lakes. And we're about an hour and a half an hour and a half north of Toronto. People call it cottage country, cottage country, what's the meaning behind that? Um, most people from the city that own cottages will head north pretty much every weekend. I know that people call it something different in many parts of the world. But yeah, it's called a cottage here. And most of them in my area are not tiny little cabins, a lot of them are are very extravagant. They're not exactly cottages they like made quite a bit of money has moved up here in the past, like 20 years so and then we're pretty close to Muskoka right next to us as well, which is can be kind of fancy, like major wakeboarding culture. And, ah, yeah, it's a pretty amazing place to have grown up and to live now. I left her about 12 years with school and my previous career and then moved back up here five years ago, so we're nice and settled in again. Yeah, yeah. So what's the weather like there? Now I have this real obsession with finding out temperatures and weather around the world, people I chat to were pretty extreme. Which I like So it's it's warming up a little bit now like today was gray and cloudy and and it was still cold it was I think minus seven or minus six Celsius. Yeah. Because you're in your Celsius so today was like warm compared to what it's been. It's been minus 20 to minus 30. Recently. Yeah, we were ice fishing this morning. Oh, my parents this and there was 20 inches of ice. Oh, wow. We don't seem to say you get that much ice. It's it's a good winter for ice and like people snowmobile all over the lake. Yeah, nice. Good. So, yeah, we have a very extreme weather we have like the lake effect. So we get tons and tons of snow. You have to. Some people don't have one, but it's very helpful to have a snowblower here. Like your full time job would be shoveling throughout the winter if you didn't have a snowblower so well, yeah, it's very extreme in the winter. And then we have pretty awesome warm, humid summers, so Oh, well. Yeah, the best of both worlds. So what's your sort of average champion Summer? Summer, like we we truly do have spring we have all all the seasons. So the spring can seem very, very long when we're anxious for the summer to come. But pretty reliably June, like through September now, anywhere from, like 18 degrees to it can be extreme heat warnings of you know, 40 degrees, sometimes, well, for about two months, we get between, I guess 25 And like 32, something like that. So that is amazing. It is that is truly amazing that you can have like zero like monastery up to like 40. That is incredible. Yeah. And we don't always have like a cold winter like this. I prefer it because then you can do stuff on the ice. And you can go skiing and snowboarding and all of that stuff. Like we are only 20 minutes from a hill. Not a big hill. It's not I wouldn't call it a mountain. But we have a few options here. And and then we have an ice rink in our backyard as well. We started that last year because of the pandemic and not being able to really go out right so yeah, yeah, no, I absolutely love it. The winters can be tough for sure. And most people will fly south during the winter for at least one trip. And and we're making the best of all the winter activities now. So yeah, that sounds amazing. I haven't I didn't realize places like that existed where you could have like a normal summer basically, and then have massive, massive winter. Yeah, it's really, for a lot of people. It's all about the summer here because the summers are really incredible. I've actually traveled in Australia and quite a few places. And the one thing I really missed while traveling was having my own boat because I don't live on an ocean and I'm so used to being able to boat like there's actually 30,000 islands in my area. All you kidding. It's the largest freshwater are archipelago. I think I said that right. archipelago, sorry. Which means just like the largest cluster of islands in freshwater in the world. It's yeah, so very interesting boating culture here. Yeah, right. Actually, that reminds me is it like, this is like a real left of field but the Ozarks TV show where they take boats everywhere. Is that kind of like? Totally. I would I would call the Ozarks a little bit more like Muskoka because there's a whole bunch of, they call them Muskoka lakes. So there's great lakes, where it's a lot more sheltered. Georgian Bay has much more open water in certain areas. So you can have all those, like nooks where it's protected if you stay in, like honey harbor is where I grew up. It's just a small drag from here. But then you can go to open water where you can't see anything and you feel like you're on the ocean. So yeah, we actually traveled to an island and a lighthouse on an island called the Western islands. And it takes about two to two and a half hours of driving fast, like straight in one direction not being able to see any thing, and then the island emerges out of nowhere. You post stuff like that with friends and get just like for safety but pretty wild. That sounds like an incredible place to leave. That's just wow. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. That's lovely I was reading on your website, you talked about honey Harbor, how you were so deeply connected to that Georgian Bay Area. And I love that your quote with the way that you describe things, its life translated through art in love that I'm primarily a self taught painter. I have been mostly doing acrylic paintings and, and mostly large scale, I really like to paint large, starting to mix in some smaller stuff, because painting large all the time is difficult with time management. But yeah, so that's mostly what I've focused on. And I've and I've recently been mixing in using watercolors as well, as more of like a daily paint. I was always super creative as a kid. Like I really took every project to the creative extreme in high school, stuff like that. But I didn't really sorry. And I was also very involved in the arts, just not fine art. So I was a competitive dancer for many years. And I played classical guitar until the end of high school. It's like I was always very involved in something that was really creative, but didn't really stumble upon painting until university actually. I had taken one elective course throughout my psychology degree, and got to do art. And we did two weeks of painting. So I just learned the basics. And I honestly didn't really I wasn't very proud of any any of the projects that we had in that class. But then beyond that year of taking that class, it stuck with me and I did a lot of paintings like for gifts for family and did a few commission jobs. And throughout the years, I kept coming back to it so and then I didn't get really serious about it until 2018 When I moved back here to Midland I was living closer to the city to Toronto, for my husband, because I was actually a paramedic in Toronto for eight years before diving into the art full time. You said that the painting you first like you discovered that at uni? Was there anyone else like in your family like growing up was painting ever exposed to earlier than that? So not necessarily painting. But I was gonna mention my grandmother I called her only because she she was German. She's passed now but so my mother's mother took care of us a lot. She helped out a lot with babysitting. A lot of my memories are with her. And she was super interested in art. She painted herself as well. But mainly she was a photographer. Yeah, right. Yeah, she didn't consider herself professional by any means. She struggled financially a lot of the time. But yeah, she was the one that really encouraged me would sit me down with all the materials for drawing. I remember her teaching me sort of like a just the way to draw certain things like a barn and she had a way to instruct me how to do that. And then it also remember doing a lot of like still life like vases with flowers in them and stuff with very special markers that she would get me. Yeah, somehow I never really got into painting with like professional paints. It's funny that I don't remember touching that until university. Yeah, she was the early influence. My parents were always super supportive. But they. And my mom is very creative herself with like interior design. And my dad is a builder. And so yeah, like, it's in the family. But yeah, she was my push for sure. And like she is one of the reasons. I do it today. And I sort of had the confidence to go for it. And I know, even though she's not here physically, yeah, I know. I hope that she knows what I'm doing. Yeah. Be proud. So yeah, that's really special. Oh, that's lovely. Growing up, so. Oh, so she didn't she wasn't alive, to see change careers and come back to Oh, yeah, she met my first son, who he's seven now. But she found out she was sick, like within that first year that he was born. So yeah, it's really kind of tragic, but but she clearly lives on through a lot of us. My aunt who's like her other daughter, is also an artist, and like, has been pursuing it more seriously as well. So yeah. Oh, that's lovely. It's like the legacy that's carried on through the family. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love the quote that you've got on your website, when you said I'm finally doing what I was meant to do. Yes, like you had to go through all this other stuff and maybe discover what you didn't want to do before you went? Actually I want to do was that was that an easy decision? Or hard in some ways to just give up, I want to say a nine to five like, solid job. I had worked really hard to be a paramedic. You so yeah, that was the part that was really hard for me was I've always been very introspective. And trying to balance what was going to make me the happiest I was, I was so lucky to have like an upbringing with all these opportunities, right. So I was trying to figure out a path that would make me super happy, but also seemed like a smart, logical path. Which led me to do this, like psychology degree, and I was considering business and all these other things. But I guess deep down inside, like, I was always very creative. And then, and I loved my career as a paramedic, super competitive, to get into school to get hired right out of school. And then it takes about five years of doing that job to start to feel settled and comfortable and not just freaked out and in a few of the situations, right. Yeah, it takes a long time to build that confidence. And then when we started having a family, it's like I knew we were going to have to make some tough decisions. Financially, you know, mortgage was going to become difficult. My husband is also a paramedic in Toronto, and he's he's still doing it there. And I just couldn't imagine doing the double shiftworker family with children, you basically have to hire a live in nanny to make it work. And then I just be working to pay for somebody else to take care of my children. And yeah, so I was starting to feel like a little bit. I was frustrated for sure, like knowing that these big changes were coming. But it's funny because now I'm happier than ever. And I really do think that just trusting the process not only like in my art but in life is super important. I have always been when not to make too many strict plans. I know that things can change. I especially learned that as a paramedic, right and just to really not take anything for granted and and try and appreciate every day as it comes and then know that they're the changes will come and I just tried to roll with it the best I can. So that's what we did. And I knew I needed to have something of my own. Like something really exciting to look forward to. As I was approaching that moment of officially quitting my paramedic career and moving on so yeah, I, I took a year leave of absence when we moved up north, away from the city, which it also that provided some major financial relief, by the way. So like all these changes were to set us up so that I could be at home with the kids and not worry as much about money, because leaving that Job was was a big paycheck as well. Yeah. So yeah, we moved north, and we're actually mortgage free because of the move, because we moved really like from very close to the city to two hours north where most people wouldn't, wouldn't go that far, right. And it was, it was tough. Like it was, even though I had grown up here, it didn't have too many strong friendships remaining like in that immediate area. So I really had to start over. Build those new connections and, and it eventually happened. But yeah, for a few years, it was tough. And so yeah, when we moved up, I took the year leave of absence. And then for about four months, I just was trying to, I was stressing over what to paint, I knew I was going to try and pursue painting. I just didn't know what I should paint because I wanted it to be successful. So I put a lot of pressure on that. But I just started painting all kinds of different things, different themes. You and and then enough work to sort of build a cohesive series, because A, in my research, I realized that was very important to make it as an artist or to get, you know, just to be successful, like to sell work and be represented or whatever. So yeah, just worked really hard to build a cohesive body of work. And then I launched my website, as soon as I had officially quit the paramedic job. And the response was amazing. I sold two original pieces, I think within the first two weeks, which is a nice boost of confidence. Yeah. And then yeah, it was a bit of a whirlwind, like lots, lots of cool opportunities. But then I got into the the fun, like figuring out the balance of trying to run my own business and be the full time mom and having a shiftworker husband, who's gone a week at a time kind of thing. So yeah, that was like a new area that you were like trying to work out the balance. Yeah. Well, you know, thankfully, it was busy and I wasn't bored. And I think that keeps you happier. Right. Especially when you're in a new place and and away from your, you know, the friendships I had established in the city and stuff, huh? Yeah. Yeah, just just an interesting, a lot of changes. But we we believed that that was the best thing to do for our family. And I feel like it all worked out. Really did. And I do feel like I am exactly where I should be because being back home has informed my art greatly. Like when I was saying I didn't know what to paint. Eventually, I figured it out because I just started painting what I know best. Yeah. Yeah, that was the water that I had grown up on. And it's just mean like the response I've had from people. They really love that series. Oh, yeah. Now I'm at a point where I've done I don't know how many of them I've done. It's it's around 25 of them. And I'm ready to I'm ready to mix it up a bit. So yeah, it's kind of cool to be successful in something like that and then know that I sort of have that as my fallback but and then but I'm always wanting to try new things. So yeah, and I'm at right now yeah. So is that where the water colors start to come in a bit like you're just sort of testing out what else he can do and yes, so I'm trying to figure wrote that does have a lot to do with just like incorporating my practice into my life and trying to be more efficient. Because I've never really been able to involve my kids in the studio too much. I have two really active boys. I tried I really did try to to just be casual about it and set them up and but yeah, my oldest was could not sit still he'd get into the the worst things, you know, like climbing the walls. So and I didn't want to say no, I didn't want to say no all the time, right. So we kind of avoided being in the studio too much. earlier on. Now I am learning what they prefer. I have to set my my oldest seven year old he has to be set up with an easel and he takes my light and he sets it up. But he's he's very short lived though. Like he'll pay it for about maybe 10 minutes and then that's it. And then he's gone and he hasn't cleaned up and and then my five year old is on the floor like still like rubbing the paint into the broken paper. Like he gets really into it. Yeah. And then everyone's gone. And it just gets busy. So yeah. Lots of having boys Hey, yeah. The the watercolor like that medium. It was sort of a magical thing. I took a water color course, online during the pandemic from John Hartman, who is a huge artists here in Canada. And luckily, he's local. Yeah, I actually know his his niece's here, I played volleyball with them growing up. And so there's like a bit of a connection there. He had never met me though. And I took this class online, and I've taken many, like several art classes, this one was just different. And it something clicked. And he, I think grew up similar to me, has like, a very special appreciation for the land, and just just this unique corner of the world, right. And he's he's obviously very into nature and all of the animals and all of the patterns and and he's been very, very successful here. So the local gallery got him to teach this class. I took it from him. And it just seemed to make sense for me as well, the way that he was taking his watercolor kit out to the islands if he would go like by canoe or kayak or whatever. And so I decided to prepare like a waterproof backpack, prep all of the paper and, and then I discovered these incredible, this incredible paint company where the paints made on Manitoulin Island. It's actually five hours north of us. Yeah, but it just felt so right because they're very focused on producing plastic free. Like the pigments are almost a lot of them are sourced locally on Manitoulin Island, and then they use tree sap, local honey, all of these things as like their binders, and it's just completely natural paints. So I feel good about going out and like washing my brush in the lake. Yes, water and then using the natural paints that she's made, and it's just amazing. So that's such an incredible connection isn't a lot. That's just amazing. Beautiful. Yeah, because they really do care about that as well. Like I am painting about my connection with the bay and then using things that are made here to create the work is yeah, it just feels really right. So I was really excited about that. And I'm getting better at being more consistent and remembering that backpack it was just always ready to go. Yeah, I'm not the most organized person so it's taken a few years for me to get myself sorted like that and know that I have to prep a few things to sit to enable myself to create in those busy situations and our children are old enough now that it's not so crazy to have my husband watch them while I take half an hour to paint so yeah, yeah. Good day The pandemic really pushed me to want to explore locally more, as it I'm sure has for many people, I love traveling, my husband loves traveling, we really miss it. And so this island hopping culture that exists here, I didn't do that growing up, my parents were always working. And I was always boating and working at marinas and like very familiar on a boat, but not really exploring. There's a lot of public islands that you can, that you can go and have a picnic for the day and, and they're really amazing and really rugged and picturesque and challenging. A lot of people don't do it because there's you could hit rocks everywhere where your boat here, like, just beneath the surface. So for some people, it's a bit too risky, or expensive to be hitting rocks with your boat. Oh, yeah, I have this level of comfort with the bay and boating. I used to to live and work on the water for many years. So yeah, it's a really. Yeah. That's incredible. Oh, just hearing your story. It just I don't want to say it sounds perfect, because nothing's perfect. But just the way things have come together for you just sounds just ideal to so. Yeah. And I, I knew that there was just something about this place when I traveled because when I, when I first traveled after university, I went on my own, I did a solo backpacking trip in Australia. And that led to many other trips to different countries until I went back to college for paramedics, and then it kind of halted the traveling and the art and everything. But now yeah, I'm coming back to it. And I didn't know how much I missed it here until I returned with my kids. And I felt like I could almost breathe easier just being surrounded by nature and the trees and I honestly didn't know how much I missed it though. Because I'm pretty happy wherever I go. I truly appreciate the city. I loved living downtown Toronto. The excitement of being a paramedic downtown was amazing. You know, I was happy I thought but I think I am much happier here. So but yeah, we also don't know, I guess we never really think in forever. My husband and I are adventurous. And he's from the east coast of Canada. So we we go there often and that's pretty amazing out there too. But when he talks about it, I I don't know if I could move there. Right. It's mostly just leaving Georgia and bay that would stress me out. So yeah. Anyway, I'm really enjoying being here right now. And it's yeah, it's inspired me so much. And gotten me on a pretty amazing foot with my art career so far. I wanted to mention, I'll put a link for people to have a look at the way that you paint the water. Right. It's just It looks like a photo. Like it looks so real. And I actually paint properly. I just mess around with painting. So I'm really interested in painting because I can't do it. I love like zooming in like how do you do that? Like it just looks real? Just beautiful. And yeah, that series that you mentioned before. Just all those pieces that just like you feel like you could literally dive into the paintings. They're just so real. So yeah, I just love them. Yeah, all right. First of all, I think that anybody can paint. It's, it is a practice, right? You just, you get better as you do it more or not necessarily even better, because I'm trying to get back to like a loose lit a looseness actually, that I had before I did these water pieces, and they have progressively gotten more realistic. Which wasn't really my intention. It's just I seem to be getting pickier with it right. And I, I can't leave it alone, like I just go further and further and further with them as I do more of those pieces. So yeah, I get very intense about them. So I honestly just think it's the amount of layers. And I will just keep painting until I'm happy with it right. And, and I do paint from a photo for the water pieces, because they wanted, it's just something I always wanted to try. I had tried painting several things. And it's interesting, because when I look back at my early paintings, like way before I knew I would pursue this as a career, the water element was there. And a lot of a lot of my pieces not not in exactly the same style, but it was there. And yeah, there's just something about it that feels like home to me and nostalgic. And I feel like the water here is very unique to other places in the world I've been. It's beautiful in all of these different places, too. But there's something very special to me about it here. And I think just with the response I've had, it seems like people that are cottagers here really identify with it too. Yeah, they're really drawn to it. Yeah, there's something about when you walk down on the dock, because we have a floating dock. And which is different from a lot of places in the world. We don't have tides. So yeah, when you go down to the dock, you feel like you're so surrounded by water in a in a really unique way to it's different from working on a beach, or Yeah. I don't know, you know, all the different ways that you can be next to the water. There's something very unique about floating on air. Like you're connected to it straight away, like you're already part of it. You can feel the move, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and I don't get that feeling all the time. It's usually when I've been away for a while and then I go down. You're standing there and it's kind of overwhelming. I remember coming back after being away for almost a year, right. So yeah, it's pretty cool. I'm very lucky. You've mentioned the children a little bit in passing. Tell us a little bit more a bit about your boys. Yeah, they're loved them. Um, so my oldest is Charlie, he's seven. And then my younger boy is five and his name is Van. And I also have a Newfoundland puppy as well. Oh. He, we had we had another one before him and unfortunately lost him through the pandemic. So this is a COVID puppy. Do it again. And yeah, very, very active household. It always has been. But it suits it suits myself and my husband. We are not good at sitting at home. We're extremely adventurous. So and now we're taking our kids along with us on those adventures. They are learning to drive the boat. They are there in Forest School as well once a week, which I love. So they're just they're super resilient kids like they go out in that minus 20 degree weather the entire day at school. And then I'll pick them up and I was so you know, I'm always a little worried about their hands and feet. And then they'll tell me that they were too hot. So because I put a sweater on them very particular layering system Man, you, you know, the types of clothes you have to put on the kids to do that sort of thing but love it. And yeah, we're outdoors, hours and hours a day like, we don't stay indoors very much. And that was I always wanted to raise them like that. But then the pandemic pushed me to turn to nature even more way to deal with the anxieties and stuff that would come up with all of this. My oldest son got very anxious with like the first sort of flip flopping locked down back to school, that kind of stuff. It was really hard on him, but at the time, he was five years old. So yeah, I find five is a really interesting age to be dealing with complicated things like that. So yeah, it's like the brains not quite developed enough to make sense of it, but they can understand quite a lot. So it's really hard for them to, you know, comprehend things and deal with them. Yeah. So he definitely has some OCD. Which, you know, we we haven't taken them to get diagnosed, because we were a little bit worried about that, at that age to like, what the effect of actually going and getting a diagnosis. Just, we just wanted to see if we could deal with it on our own first, and it did get a bit scary, for sure. But he's doing amazing now and we've figured out some coping strategies. We're lucky with the internet, right? You can do so much research on your own. Yeah, we were open to if we felt like we couldn't handle it, I had the name and number of someone to call, but got through it. And you just never know when it's when things like that are gonna creep up on you with the kids. Challenging, challenging time. Yeah, that's for sure. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. Ellie, you mentioned that being a paramedic was good at sort of allowing you just to go with the flow and things are unexpected things change? Do you think that's sort of helped you being a parent in the way that things are always changing unexpected things? And for sure, yeah, absolutely. I think that was sort of in my personality anyway, and, and why I enjoyed being a paramedic so much. And, but yeah, like that experience, I knew that I would never regret becoming a paramedic, even if it was not the be all end all of what I was going to do, you know, having those skills, I would never regret it. It's pretty cool. And I my style, honestly, was to not worry about the call details. Because you get when you get a call, you get a bunch of details. And most of the time, it's completely different. When Yeah, when you arrive. Yeah. Somebody on the phone? Yeah, people in emergencies can't describe. Can't describe what's going on accurately most of the time. Yeah. So you'd like to discard that. Basically, when you get there you make your own assessments and work from that sort of thing. Yeah, I just tried to always have a really open mind. Honestly, though, my husband is an incredible paramedic, and he has a completely different approach. He actually goes through all of the possibilities, and all of the protocol protocols for all of those possibilities. So he's the one practicing it all in his mind before he walks in. So he knows the dosage and everything medications, whereas I I was different in that. Yeah, I would more roll with it. Because it's it's dangerous to get tunnel visioned. Especially in that job, right. Yeah. So yeah. And I think that has reflected In my life as a parent, for sure, you learn pretty quickly that as soon as you get the routine going, it changes. Prizes and, and your, your children usually turn out very, very to be very different personalities. So yeah, it's it's pretty cool. Something really neat about my oldest son, the one that had all of that anxiety. He's I think it's because he's such an empath we've learned, he picks up on everything right, no matter how much we were trying to keep our cool at the beginning of all of it. Everybody was holding their breath and watching the news too much. And yeah, it was. It was terrifying. So And I honestly just snapped back into paramedic mode. I was not thinking about art at all. Yeah, yeah. And I was almost feeling guilty that I got out of that profession. Like before this happened. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because this is just so huge. It's like something that you prepare for, and you hope never happens. But yeah, it was happening. And my son, yeah, he just picks up on everything. Even when you don't know that. It's like that you're stressed out or you're depressed, or whatever it is. So yeah, things kind of fall apart when I get when mom gets super stressed or overwhelmed. And then I start seeing issues in my kids with their anxiety. So he keeps me in check. I have to take care of myself and keep a balance and not forget to get back to exercising when I can and all of those things. Or yeah, I find we have issues. So huh. That's it if mom's not happy. It's challenging, but I really appreciate that about him. So I'm super lucky, right? I'm at home with him. I don't have to leave the house to go to work. We made some tough decisions to put me in this position. But so I know I'm very very lucky. Some people aren't as fortunate right. And life is tough. It's sometimes impossible to get out of debt for a lot of people now so that's easy. Yeah, so I really just appreciate Yeah, I'm able to do and be at home with them and be super in tune with my kids absolutely YEAH. I just wanted to ask just on that when you're talking about the, the pandemic Did you ever consider thinking I need to go back and help like, did you ever think or I'm I'm a paramedic? I can I can help with it's yeah, um, um, I think it crossed my mind. But so yeah, I was feeling guilty, but I know I didn't have the urge to walk away from the art that I had yet into and protecting my family. I sure applied it in all of my conversations with friends. You know, like talking through it with people. Then like new connections that I made helping friends with anxiety The stuff like that. And just like explaining things in like a medical way was really helpful. Like we we obviously could grasp what was going on in a different way from a lot of other people, which was scary actually. It's like you knew you knew exactly what was happening. And that was a little bit too much. Honestly sitting there thinking, why aren't we doing what New Zealand is doing? Like, why are we not locking everything down right away? Like what is taking so long? And there were real repercussions because of that, but but nobody really knows. Right? So. Yeah, it's yeah, that's the thing. They're all making decisions. On the fly. Basically, there's no book about how to deal with this. It's never really happened. Before your best. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But on that, New Zealand's done amazing. They're still not letting Australians back in. Like, that's how good they're going. They're awesome. I know. It's a different way. And yeah, it's hard to say what's best. But yeah, that's the thing. And every country is like, obviously, geographically different challenges, whatever. But yeah, I do have a lot of respect for New Zealand and the wonderful Prime Minister, she's pretty cool. changing tack slightly, in terms of there's a topic that I love to talk about two mums about mum guilt. And I'm not sure if that's a term that. I mean, I find the Australians know what I'm talking about. Is that something that you're familiar with over there in Canada, the mum guilt? Yeah. I definitely believe that it exists for sure. And, as I've explained the way, the changes we've made in our life, and the fact that I can work from home and pivot whenever needed to put my children first. That sort of like mitigates that a lot, right? I think I've experienced mom guilt in small doses, and then almost used it to help guide my decisions with my life. Because I want to avoid feeling like that, of course. And I'm lucky that I was able to find a way to avoid it a lot, right? Yeah. Yeah, the first time I think I felt it was honestly when I was pregnant. I was nesting and working on the house, and I fell off of a ladder when I was seven months pregnant, I think, yeah. I just remember sitting in the bathtub after feeling like horrible. I had a very hard time adjusting while being pregnant, to not being able to do certain things. Just because I really independent I pride myself on being a very strong woman that way, you know, yeah, ask for help. to a fault. Yeah, so that was the first time I felt really horrible. Like, that was a dumb decision to be doing that in the first place. And then, and then I'm trying to think, oh, so I had my first child. And then we did have a plan. Like, I didn't think I was going to continue doing the shift work. We sort of knew there was going to be an end eventually. But I did go back to work when my son was one year old, but I went back pregnant because they're only they're 19 months apart. Yep. So I went back wasn't going back to the road. I luckily got to go back to modify duties. So much safer, safer environment. A little more mundane and not the type of stuff I like to do. But yeah, so it was like an eight hour day instead of the 12 to 15 hour days that I would normally work. And that was really tough. I finding a nanny that I felt comfortable with, and then leaving my child with the nanny, even though I had put a lot of effort in had, I think I fired two before we settled on the one that we kept. Yeah. And yeah, it was really tough to leave him with her. But eventually, we got used to it. And I knew there was an end in sight. And then I went off the road again, you know, when I was, I can't remember how many weeks. But I just didn't want to go back to that. I didn't like that feeling. I personally didn't see the point of having kids if I couldn't be with them all the time. Right. So. But, yeah, I'm so fortunate that we could make it work that way. Right? It's not that way for everybody. So sometimes there, those opportunities don't exist. And my husband, I was able to really lean on him for a couple years to support us while I was not making any money as an artist. So I just started making more financial goals and wanting to relieve him a little bit. But we made it a good couple of years without too much pressure on it. Yeah, pretty hard to create meaningful art. If you're worried about the money. Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? You just, you'd be really constrained and like, I've got to, I've got to do this. So I can sell it. And I've got to, you know, you'd have all this pressure on yourself. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how I would do that. Yeah, it would be such a distraction. Right. Hmm. Let's see. Yeah, it's almost like it wouldn't feel like a creative space. It just feel like a job like you had you just have to. Yeah, produce stuff. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Yeah, no good. The other thing I love to chat to moms about is identity, like how you how you see yourself shifts in as you become a mother and from what you just mentioned, is that like, you're started when you were pregnant. You know, you're the challenge of having to adjust how you do things. So then when you actually had your children, did that change? Did the shift keep? Was the shift already made sort of thing, like we able then to adjust into motherhood? Because you've already sort of started to change. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. I think the shift so I physically, like I was always very athletic and doing kind of adventurous things like that, you know, like when I traveled a, I did the skydiving in the bungee, and the the only thing I I was too nervous to do is hang gliding and Brazil. myself with run off a cliff like that. So yeah, I've always been a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and I've had a lot of injuries, or my last major injury was while I was in paramedic College, and that scared me because it threatened my career. So I I I've shifted big time just being more careful with my body. And then yes, as as I was pregnant that was really difficult. Adjusting just asking for help with anything lifting wise was I left the hardware store falling once because I lifted a how many gallons is that? I think it's like 18 liters. Yeah, like the big thing of primer I lifted into into the cart and then felt obviously some major pain. And then I had to ask somebody to put that into my vehicle at the end. And and they were like, how did you get it in the car? So just stuff like that was so hard on me. But yeah, I'm so obviously I adjusted and it's okay, and I realized I needed to be careful. And just not taking as many risks right like you have kids to protect you Yeah, I find her a lot more careful like that. I'm always wanting to do the adventurous stuff and my husband. It makes him a little more nervous with kids around water and things like that. So we're good balance. Yeah, yeah. Yep. But I feel like I really worked on like figuring out who I was. Before kids, I was really lucky to do the traveling and several jobs, right. I really played around and tried to figure it out. And I thought I had figured it out with the paramedic thing and. And then, yeah, leaving that behind was a huge, felt like a sacrifice. Being a mother, it felt like I was giving up something that I had worked so hard for. And I didn't really see that coming. I did, but it didn't, you know, it didn't actually happen yet. So I was a little upset for sure. But, ya know, like, I think when things get tough like that, I think just thinking about what will be best for your kids always helps make the decision a little easier, like what direction to go. That's the way that we approach it. And I have never regretted making a decision based on that. Yeah, that's really well said, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You always have to think about yourself, too. But I'm personally happier when I put my kids first. So. And I'm getting better at balancing those things. But when they're really, really young, yeah, I was. All over it all, I was pretty crazy with all the homemade food and schedule and trying to mix it up enough that when we do mess with their schedule, they're not devastated. And, you know, trying to just do everything as responsibly as possible. Give him a sort of taste of life, I suppose that things don't always go to plan. And, you know, you can be adaptable. And mean, you can you can, you're allowed to get annoyed if things don't work out. But it's not like the end of the world. Like he can give back things. And that's really important. Sorry, sorry, I think kids in general have just proven how much they can handle and how resilient they are through this pandemic, right? It's just crazy. Yeah, depends on what country you're in, I think but we have done the online schooling I think four times. It has gotten easier, but which is amazing. That the last time it was kind of knew the routine and I wasn't as upset, right? Like I was really hard on myself with the online school. First, or Yeah, the first time it was very stressful. And I felt very down on myself. That's I guess that could be slotted in as mom guilt, right? Like not I eventually learned that I had to decide when we just had to call it quits for the day and to not allow myself to feel guilty that it wasn't working on the computer and we're just going outside and blowing it off because it was easier because they're in kindergarten at the time. So junior and senior kindergarten so like, I don't I didn't believe they should be on the computer anyway, but I also didn't want them to fall too far behind. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. More reasonable commitments. In my mind, I was like if we do it three days a week out of the five then I'm happy or if it's a bad day just just stopped right so yeah. hoping it's over, gosh, I know. In terms if you're making and I know your children, age wise, this might not apply but is it important for you, for them to see what you're doing and how you contribute? doing? Absolutely, it's important to me that they see what I'm doing and my process. Actually, just recently, I've had a lot of really awesome opportunities landed in my lap. And and I'm just trying to figure out how I'm going to do it all, because I think they're gonna stay in school. And I think we can plan for this right. So I've actually just turned my dining room wall into my new studio, so that I cannot get away from the project that I'm working on. Because when I'm walking by it constantly, I'm just subconsciously like working on it in my head. Right? Yeah. And I think it's really cool and exciting for them to go to school and come home and then see what it has changed. Yeah, it's, and it does inspire them. And I am seeing them try to copy things that I paint, it took, it took a while, like, you have to know that you have to be patient with some kids, like they're not going to just show interest in. And Charlie, my oldest showed so much resistance at first, so I just didn't push it. And then all of a sudden, in the last year, he is a big drawer, like an amazing drawer. And like his composition is on point. It's crazy. And he would draw his emotions through the panoramic. That's kind of home with these drawings. And with very, like, all different emotions on all of the people's faces, and it was a little bit sad. Of course. Yeah. His anxiety. But yeah, so his drawing skills have are just amazing. And then he has recently been trying to like copy certain pieces that he sees of mine. Yeah. And then they're both really giving their opinions on, on art. Like, yeah, on like, which paintings they like, and my little one van will always he's really into the water paintings and Hill. Yeah, he just offers his opinion on his favorites. And, and I have two really great friends I met online in the last year as well. And we're always sharing our work and critiquing each other and pushing each other along. Yeah. And sometimes, like, they'll see the little video clip and, and, you know, chime in on what they think of their work as well. It's really well, that's lovely. I love I love involving them in the process. Yeah. So even though we are just starting to do some collaborative, like paint, paint days and stuff and trying to do like Saturday mornings, there's a little online class that I'm trying to get all of us set up and I set them up exactly with all the things that I have. And I think that's really cool. But mostly, I think that they are part of my process. Not in the physical art making but like the inspiration side. Because reliving my childhood with my kids has been amazing. And definitely coming home and the nostalgia of like this place was sort of the initial inspiration and it's and yeah, now experiencing it alongside my kids and having all these adventures it's really special. So I'm trying to capture that in some of my future paintings. Yes, yeah, I really like to to give them that freedom in nature like as long as they're safe to explore and like I find they're just so confident because of it. You know? Yeah, it's really cool to see Yeah, absolutely. I love the way you describe though you really reliving your childhood three children. That's just Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, it reminds me when you say reminds me of my oh me when I when I describe that because I actually think I'm trying to provide them with sort of the same experience that that she provided with me. I purposely avoid driving anywhere I make them walk incredible distances. You know, we're like always picking flowers and, and just really getting into things like that. And that's that's what she did with me. And I remember sometimes finding it annoying, you know, when I was an older child care thing, stopping at the side of the road to pick flowers and stuff and she's taking like photos of my brother sister and I and I And now we appreciate it so much and, and all of those flowers and stuff remind me of her. So yeah, I'm just hoping that they remember that when they're an adult as well, right? I just, yeah. That's just beautiful. I'll go tingly now. Lovely. Similarly, like I had my, my Nana was real, it was very, very close to her. And she wasn't musical, but she was the one that bought us. My sister and I are first like organ like the double keyboard organ is fun to sort of encourage us to play and she passed away when I was 10. So and she's never met, obviously never met my children, but she inspires so much of my music and decisions that I make. And, you know, it's just incredible that someone who's not here has just informed our lives so much. It's just lovely. And yeah, it's the people that are really present with you. Not just going through the motions there. They put in sort of the hard work and, and, and the tough love. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. You say that. I interviewed a lady from she's Hungarian. But she now she lives in Austria. And it's, this is really funny. I have these runs of people that I talk about the same things with like, it goes through phases. And so the last thing I spoke to, and you have talked about the same thing about a significant grandmother, who had such an impact on them, and the same thing that that tough love like this, this grandma would be like, you're not playing that right. Like she's a flute played, played again. Not like that, play it again, play it again. And at the time, she's like, Oh, come on, like this is, you know, you felt like she was she was punishing her. But she's like, now I understand why she was doing it. And it's made me who I am and all this sort of stuff. And yeah, she passed away early as well. So all these people that is mighty Yeah. You talked about your watercolor that you you sort of adventuring into and including your children in your work. What sort of other thoughts have you got about the future for your art practice? Was it sort of hinting? Yeah, I have a lot of really exciting projects that I can't even really, they're not, you know, developed enough that I can talk about them yet. Yes, you're sort of man, it's only February. And the year is planned. Well for commissions, and it's just amazing. But there is one really big exciting thing that I'm starting, that I haven't talked about yet, but I do feel ready. And it is about everything in my life. It's just all making sense and coming together. And I guess I've always been waiting for the right idea like business, I always consider different business ideas. And so yeah, the last two years, we did a lot of the adventure, boating, checking out all these islands that I didn't even know existed. It's just crazy that it was like a 20 minute boat ride away and I had never discovered that. And we ended up purchasing a new boat in November. That would be suitable for this idea that I have. I'm going to start what's going to be called compete with me excursions. And I'm going to invite small groups of artists to go out with me on the boat, and I'm going to take them to paint plein air, meaning outdoor painting I'm just because a lot of people that live in this area actually don't have access to the water and the islands, and it's right there. But they've either never been on a boat or never really been on a tour in the area. Because there aren't a lot of there's just no businesses that enable that. Like there was one cruise boat from Midland that takes you on a couple hour cruise or whatever. But yeah, so this is going to be more of a, like a private tour, and we're going to select a destination based on the weather just like I always do, we really have to pay attention to weather. Yeah, because it can, if there's any chance of a major storm, I don't want to risk it. Even though I, I enjoy it. But yeah, so I have to upgrade my certification to be able to take this boats gonna be able to take 10 people. But for now, I'll be limited to a group of six people, which will be really nice. Yeah, I'm just trying to get the business end of all of that organized so that I can start advertising and start booking some dates. Trying to involve that in my my summer schedule with my, you know, my husband's schedule, the kids being home, all of that stuff. But I what I wanted is just to be on the water more, as much as possible, because for many years, I worked for my dad doing marine contracting. So like a lot of barging and doing the building of those cottages on these Rock Islands. And I just loved working on the water, you know, boating to work. And then it was very physical work. But it was amazing to be outside all day on the water. And then when you're on the water every day like that, like you experience, the different weather and kind of like magical things in nature, the wildlife that you see, sometimes it's just amazing. And you don't, you don't get as many opportunities like that if you're not consistently out there. So I feel like it's going to really support my own art practice. Yeah, I'm gonna get to do my little daily painting, even if I'm trying to instruct others and not really doing my own work. I'm just out there and fired. i It's like my favorite place to be. So I'm trying to position myself there. You know, while supporting myself financially, it'll support. it'll inspire my work, I'm sure. And we need a little more like community with the there's a lot of artists in the area. But it's a small town. Yep. You know, and so these kinds of things are needed. And I did one test run with a group of friends. Yeah. And it just, it was amazing. And like, just listening to everyone the ideas that were flowing and the chatter it was a group of women and they were just loving it right. It was very cool. And I've actually seen sort of the inspiration from that day in a in most of them like a lot of them started these new projects and stuff and I think I think a day like that can just give somebody an extra nudge something new so yeah, just and then my, my paramedic background makes me feel confident to like take care of people. Yeah, in you know, a wild terrain. There's going I actually did a photo shoot on one of the islands I'm going to use and we pulled up with the photographer and there was a bear on the island to eating berries. And I was like are you serious? The time is right we need to do this photo shoot and there was a bear there and we just sort of paused for a couple of minutes and I checked with sorry there's major stomping upstairs Yeah, I just checked in with my friend and the photographer like are you guys still into this because I definitely was and the bear took off to the other end of the island is very small island and they were they were game and we went on the island we we obviously didn't go to the other end where the bear went. But we still did it because I don't know I know there's no for sure but there you could just tell we weren't bothering the bear. The bear didn't want anything to do with us. Yeah, it just eaten some berries. He was full. We didn't need to eat some kind of crazy so yeah, I would never, I, you know, if I see the group, I'm not going to go on the island. But personally, I take some more risks I think than other people would be willing to take. Just when I have those kinds of experiences, I feel I feel like it's like, a good omen or it's like good luck. It's like a sign from the universe. Right? So Oh, yeah. And it really made it memorable. Yeah. You couldn't like try and position the bear in the background? So a couple of shots of it, I'll definitely post them at some point. Oh, that's so cool. I love that. It was neat. Excited to start that, a lot of organization, obviously, but yeah, like, you know, paperwork, kind of, yeah. booking system, all of those things, but I'm just going to try and take it easy for the first year and, and just see the interest and stuff. I'm feel very confident about it, because there aren't many things available like this here. But yeah. And then, and then I've offered to be like a volunteer steward to keep an eye on some of these islands for conservation purposes. And oh, cool. Because they get a lot of people to just do that people that are cottagers to keep an eye on a particular island. And yeah, make sure people aren't leaving garbage behind and things like that. And, and it can extend into a major educational opportunity. Yeah, just to educate people how to enjoy it, but like in a zero footprint way. And yeah, be respectful of the Yeah, because yeah, that's the thing you said, there's like 3000 islands, like there'd be so many where no one would be able to actually, like people can't be everywhere. So that's a great thing to do. Yeah, so I just feel like tourism is going to become more of a thing up here. We're seeing some major booming with housing and stuff like that, right, as there is everywhere. But I yeah, I feel good about doing it in a responsible way. And I have a ton of experience here. And I just, I want people to respect it the same way that we do. We're out there all the time. But yeah. I would probably, you know, report to whoever is whoever owns the island or is responsible for the wildlife conservation. Like if we ever noticed an issue or something like that. So yeah, that's wonderful. And it's like you're you're you're passing on like you've got such a connection such a love the area and you're sort of ensuring that it's cared for and looked after for for the next generations. You know, yeah, it's, it's super important, right? Because I have been in those places in the world that the water is just almost and swimmable, it's so polluted. The microplastics in our lakes are actually are at a very high level. If you're paying attention to that kind of stuff, yeah, it's, it's already really bad. So hopefully, we can find a way to reverse some of that stuff. When you're talking about the wildlife before? What sort of other animals do you get up there? Yeah, so it's super unique here because of all of the rocks like the landscape and all of the islands. So there are I think there's a lot of I don't know enough about birds, but there are a lot of unique birds. There's a lot of marshland as well. And then we have very unique reptile aisles and master set a Massasauga rattler snake that is poisonous. So, like I grew up watching where you're walking for snakes just like in Australia. Oh, yeah, well, either that one. Yeah. So that's just normal to us it Yeah, it's hard for someone to get used to if that if they haven't grown up that way. But that's just part of it and you learn about them and they're not. They're not out like looking for you. They're very frightened of humans have. Absolutely yes. It's just something to be really careful of. And I think if you're educated on like, how to coexist with wildlife, then that's, that's the best way to be the rattlesnakes. Something super interesting is they actually protect the blueberry bushes. Oh, yeah. From being over picked and stuff. Like a lot of people won't go to the areas where there are all the wild blueberries because there are so many rattlesnakes there. I think originally it was to protect the berries from being over eaten by animals. But yeah, yeah. So um, but there are so many other types of snakes as well. Just that that is our only poisonous snake. Lots of birds of prey. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, you don't want to mess with an angry owl or something. Right. end We have pretty bad mosquitoes and things like that. But But yeah, it's it's pretty beautiful. I love very into nature. I that's what I focused on when I was a kid. Yeah. Sounds wonderful. I have a lot of fun with the kids with that stuff. We raised butterflies last summer. Yeah, right. Yeah, just stuff like that. So gosh, you're making me jealous. I want to go then. You'll have to come visit. I honestly have been inviting people to come visit my whole life. Right. And I have hosted a couple of friends like I drove to Toronto and, and brought them up for the day and took them on a boat ride just to show them. And I just Yeah, I love that. I'm actually going to start a business like this. And can invite especially I've made a lot of artists friends. I'm a part of a few communities online now. Yeah, took me a while I was too shy to like officially join any of them for many years. And then I felt ready and it's been amazing. Yeah, the connections I've made and I know some of them will come visit eventually. Paint together. Oh, that's awesome. Geez. I love that. Yeah, that's that's wonderful I was gonna ask you whereabouts Did you like do a big lap of Australia? Like where did you go to when you're over here? I started in Melbourne. I didn't I didn't go to where you live yet, but I Yeah, Melbourne. I went all the way up the coast, the East Coast. I was really lucky when I started. I stayed for two weeks with a friend. So we have friends here. She's Australian. He's Canadian. They ended up living here. And they are the ones that pushed me when I was considering it. I think I was thinking maybe three weeks. No. You need to go at least for three months. Yeah. It's turned into I think I booked an open ended ticket. Right. And it lasted eight months. Yeah. All the way up the East Coast. I did Fraser Island, you know through Whitsundays. I went all the way up to Cape Tribulation. Yeah. I never did the like the interior. Yeah, I didn't get to do that trip. But I flew over to Darwin, just there was just a layover. I didn't actually spend much time there. Although I really wish I could have and then I even did some of the West Coast. I stayed in Perth for a little while. And then I did more of a an organised tour of the West Coast, southwest coast. And in between there I also went to New Zealand and Southeast Asia and I did tomato planting. Do you know where Boeing is? Boeing? Which was typesetting? Um, it is. I'm trying to think if it's north of New South, I think it's near North. Oh boy. It's near Airlie Beach. Oh, yeah, yeah, Queensland. Yeah. It's where the film Australia was filmed. Yeah, right. Yeah. Here and they were looking for extras. Ah, yeah. And I it was, oh boy. It was a, I guess a bit of a risky situation. Like, somebody asked me if I'd ever Oh no, the guy that picked me up for the farm. asked me if I had ever seen Wolf Creek. Oh, God. That's a great that's a great stuff. Uh, he ended up being Canadian, which was great. Oh, and they had bought this hostile to ours. inland. I'm trying to think of Bowen was. I think Bowens coastal. Right. And then, yeah, so yeah, it is. It's right on the coast. Yeah. So two hours into the Outback, Bowen, and I worked on a tomato farm for five weeks. And it was called the bogey river Busch house. And such an amazing group of people that I met there. together first, most people were very broke. I spent every night at the bonfire on the like, dry riverbed. It was amazing. And I'm sure I will connect with some of those people. Eventually. They're all over the world. But yeah, it was a really cool experience. And we were all dreaming of going to Thailand because it was cheaper and, like, blew up into this massive trip. But yeah, that was one of the coolest experiences. And I got to see, like a true Aboriginal ceremony as well. Like, I didn't pay for it. We had a barbecue and oh, man, it was really amazing. Oh, that's so cool. You've seen more of Australia than what I have. I I haven't traveled enough of Canada, to be honest. So yeah. It's funny how that happens. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was the best place to start. Like traveling alone. It was it was awesome. Yeah. Did you sort of feel comfortable because we all spoke English. You know, English is our language. And we're in a court. We're a Commonwealth country. So you know, yeah. sort of feels really familiar. Pretty easy. That way, you know, not overly dangerous. Yeah. And you use the snake, so that's okay. Yeah. And I Yeah, exactly. If the watch for the spiders on the farms especially. Yes, that stuff didn't freak me out. Maybe because of where I'm from. Yeah. But oh, it was so beautiful. And I met the best people. And I was very lucky to have I don't know if they finished explaining that I stayed with the friend for two weeks initially, just outside of Melbourne. And then I just remember being ready to go on my own and the city and stayed in a hostel for the first time and, and I very quickly met a friend from Ottawa, Canadian. And he ended up being my travel partner through Thailand and stuff too. So yeah, I just made incredible friends. I was really lucky. I had a great time. And I don't know it's always timing, right? Oh, yeah. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Has my cat. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thanks again. It's been great. Yeah, I had so much fun. And thanks, sir. I'm just glad you found me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Amy Siegfried US podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep56 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Amy Siegfried, a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa Oklahoma, USA and a mother of 1 - AKA The Tiny Human. Originally from Las Vegas, Amy’s athletic career was short-lived, but she fell in love with the world of sports. That learned love for sports came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports, working as an intern in a Major League Baseball Club. She’s lived internationally, which provides her with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought, as women, we are constantly hurdling unrealistic expectations, but what if we could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy finally founded her company Last Night's Game with her brother. It was born out the idea of how do you go to work in a that male dominated world and converse in sports, Not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like foods, travel, celebrity gossip and music associated with significant sporting events. Think, the Super Bowl Half Time show, WAGS, sports fashions and off the field goings on. They launched their email publication and website first, then 4 years later the podcast Sports Curious was born. They believe in short and sweet, emails are about a 3-4 minute read, and podcasts max of 5 minutes, supplying interesting tid bits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing, partnerships and public relations and she has also presented a TedX speech . Today we chat about women supporting each other, celebrating your wins, and having each other's back rather than judging each other. Last Night's Game on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Watch Hoda Kotb's induction speech Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Amy Siegfried. Amy is a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa, USA. And as a mom of one originally from Las Vegas. Amy's athletic career was short lived, but she fell in love with the world of sport. That learn to love for sport came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports working as an intern in a major league baseball club. She's lived internationally, which provides him with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought as women were constantly hurdling, unrealistic expectations. But what if she could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy founded her company last night's game with her brother. It was born out of the idea of how do you go to work in a male dominated world and converse in sports, not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like food, travel, celebrity gossip, and music associated with significant sporting events. Think the Superbowl halftime show WAGs sports fashions and the off field goings ons. They launched their email, publication and website first then four years later, the podcast entitled sports curious was born. They believe in short and sweet emails are about three to four minute read and podcasts and maximum of five minutes supplying interesting tidbits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing partnerships and public relations. And she's also presented a TEDx speech. Music used in today's episode is from LM Joe, an Australian New Age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to the podcast. Amy. It's a real pleasure to meet you and to have you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So we're about to you at the moment. You're in the US. Yes, I am in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Oklahoma. For those who are not familiar, I just write about as I like to call it Texas, the Texas hat. So just because there's like a cowboy hat to Texas. That's a cool way of describing it. Right. Right. Well, I'm from Las Vegas, and most people have heard of Las Vegas. So from Yeah, so you're originally from Las Vegas. So you've lived in other places around the world to whereabouts have you? Have you been? We Well, I've lived across the couple places in the US obviously from he lived in Phoenix. And we lived in Singapore and now we live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah, that'd be pretty exciting living in Singapore. It was a it was a really exciting and someone actually asked me yesterday if I missed it, and I said, Yes. There's certainly pluses and minuses to everything being 26 hours of flying time away from your family is a little far but there's so many wonderful things. And I said to someone, like what do you miss my, the food and the diversity? I just love the mix of people and, and that's what I really learned to appreciate. And I think the more that I've traveled, the more I've understood I understand that. Basically everyone's the same we all want the same few things for ourselves for our families, and its safety, its food, and you know, we want to be happy to have good health and so I mean, that's truly what we all want and the more you travel the smaller the world becomes. Because that same it's the same inner woven vein through no matter where you live. what language you speak. Yeah, yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Like because often we say oh, we're all so different and blah blah But yeah, when it comes down to it we all we all have our needs our basic human needs for survival. Yeah, right. That's really all I mean, when it comes down to it when when all things hit the fan like that's all you really need in the in the, in the in the big pictures and so on. Think that's just really interesting part of everyone bonds over food and different things, and maybe different food and maybe different drink. But everybody bonds over food and different things. So it's really kind of fun. And that was one big thing. We traveled a lot. We always had cooking classes. Ah, that was a great way to get into learning just local food and local currency cultures. And why this ingredient versus that? And so it's kind of interesting. And like, yeah, what's important? What do they value? Why do they use what they use? And? Yeah, that's really cool. I love that insert. So you are a podcaster, amongst other things, I know you do a lot of different things. But tell us about your podcast, because it's really cool. You're very kind. Thank you. So I created a company called last night's game I brothers, also my co founder. And I'll give you a quick synopsis of it. But it was born out of the idea. I used to work in major baseball, I worked for the Arizona tax. And I had all these girlfriends who knew nothing about the world of sports. And we were in our early 20s. And I thought how do you go to work in a male dominated industry of manufacturing, or law or whatever that might be? And not have even just a baseline of what's happening? You'd have no idea. It's some big, maybe the Olympics, they might know. But I mean, it's one of those where they don't have and if there's a scoop, the Superbowl or whatever that might be. So how do you go in the office and not have just that baseline? And so I called my brother who was in high school at the time, in turn. So I was making 525 an hour. And, you know, okay, we need to figure out how we teach our friends about sort of the interesting side of sports, the not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. The interesting things about sports, why? Kind of like cooking, like, Why do you have this ingredient versus this ingredient? And, and so he was like, that's a really great idea. And me, but I'm in high school and you work 80 hours a week. So no. And so that was 14 years before we started last night's game. And when we were moving back from Singapore, I realized that no one was hiring because it was Thanksgiving in the US, and no one really hires between Thanksgiving and New Years. And so we I sort of said, Okay, well, I have about a month and a half to sort of let's give this a shot. And so we started that, and it was ugly. In the beginning. You know, we were it was not a pretty product by any stretch of the imagination. And so we rolled that out. And about, probably four years after we rolled out our email, I'll try weekly email publication and our website, we rolled out a podcast and the way we do our email publication, as well as our podcast is we believe in short and sweet. Emails are about a three minute read, you can click for more information if you want it, but just briefly, the headlines if you'd like. And then the podcast is about five minutes. And we cover sort of what's happening in the world of sports at this time. Typically, it's around that something like a five things to know about. We just did five things about the Masters was just last week, I want to talk about major league baseball season. And we'll do stuff about Earth Day, actually, this week on the podcast. And so we we sort of tried to cover things that are interesting that you might be able to start a conversation with someone who was a sports person. And well, the way I always see sports, and I use it myself this way is it's a great foray into conversation. But it also has this great plethora of roads out of the sports conversation, you can talk about food, you can talk about travel, maybe you want to tweak and fashion, celebrity gossip, I mean, you can really weave it all in together. And so that's how we kind of we talk about sports, and that's how we cover them. And because no one no one's interested in, you know, the stats, and this and that they really want to know the stories. And that's how we all talk, right? We talk about the stories of our travels or whatever that might be. So our kids, whatever that might be. So that's kind of how we cover sports. Something makes it interesting, huh? No, I love that because you're right, it can be incredibly intimidating because it isn't, it's a man's world. It you know, we're trying to make it better. And over here in Australia, we have the women's football, the AFL football league, and we have women's soccer and we have women's cricket. But, you know, we're always seen as like the poor cousin of the men's game, which is unfortunate. So in that it can feel very daunting to try and converse. Enter a sports world because you feel like you're going to be judged because you're right to start with unless you know what you're talking about. So your episodes they're short, sweet to the point how often do you bring out your episodes? Where every week? Yeah, every once in a while we'll roll out a bonus episode on something. But yes, every week so it's been it's been fun. It's just in my whole theory is or email publication. It is Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. And the podcast is once a week because I feel like if you're truly not in the ESPN Sports World, then you are. You're trying to digest what you read. And I think sometimes there's so much information coming out of you. So if you can have a day or two to digest what you read in your email, or a day or two or week to listen to that podcast, even though it's short, it gives you a chance to process and then execute it in your conversations. That's it, isn't it? You can put it put into practice test it out. Exactly. That's exactly give it a whirl Yeah. I want to ask you, what was it like being a woman working in that bus baseball environment. It was interesting. Now there my now I worked in the Community Relations Department in the foundation. So we were female, heavy in that department. But it was definitely different. It was definitely interesting, because it truly is a man's world. And you kind of have to get in there. And I probably blame them for my mouth, spews four letter words, and some of those other things. But it's it's definitely, it's an adjustment. And it's it's really interesting because you are in it even more. So in a man's world, you're in a world of men, where a lot of them were always told how great they were always built up. Because there are these athletes, there are these celebrities, if you will. And I will tell you 99.9% of them are fantastic. Their dads, their brothers, their husbands, they're great men. And so that is I mean, I don't want to give anybody a bad, a bad reputation at all. But it was definitely one of those things that you had to be mindful as a woman of what you were doing, where you were, who you were with. And so that's kind of just one of those things that you really do have to, you know, and stand your own ground when it came to things where they maybe things maybe got uncomfortable. There were comments you made. I got really good at just sort of rushing off and giving a hard time and going alright, well move along here type of thing. So it's kind of it's funny how you just, it's a life skill, though. You know, when I met my husband, my father in law has that personality where he always tries to make comments or funny things. He always tries to like get under your skin and not in like a mean way. But he wants to get your reaction. Yeah. And so I had that skill from the My Work in baseball that really turned into a benefit of giving my shit my short, witty comebacks to him where I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, well, let me get you on this one. Yeah. So yeah, it's definitely likes going out, I would just say it's one of those things that if as long as you, you respected yourself, you really were You were fine. You really had to push for what you wanted, though. And for who maybe career jobs because there were certain jobs that women just didn't do. And we have our first there's a woman who's Alyson Aiken, who's the AI. She's about a year and a half into her career as a baseball coach for Major League Baseball team. And she's the first woman to coach on the field. She's an assistant baseball coach for the San Francisco Giants. And so it's neat to see you know, baseball, we have an in football, we have quite an American football, we have quite a few female coaches, not head coaches. But they're factored in there in one way or another. So it's nice to see that these women are pushing through that boundary and saying, I don't care that this is a locker room situation. I'm a good coach, I'm really good at what I do. I'm the best you can hire. Forget that. I'm a woman. I'm the best that that's out there. And so it has been really neat and really motivating to see women step up into those roles. And and we talked a little bit about earlier about women in sports, but it's been really neat. So we have the the March Madness college basketball tournament that happens here in the US, the men's tournament in the women's tournament, and it's a whole bracket single elimination that drives the country crazy for a month, and just solid basketball. And this year, they've really built up the women's tournament. And the numbers have gone through the roof because people are watching because great basketball, great sport. They're very talented. And so that is really neat for us as a company that covers sports. You know, we cover the headlines. And so sometimes that is maybe mostly American football versus throwing in something, but it's mostly going to be men's sports. That's what people are talking about. But I really love turning on ESPN here and having the break the first story of Sports Center, a women's sports story. And that to me is really cool because where we've tried to we definitely I will say that definitely because we're women women lead that I steer the conversation toward women's sports where I can So it's really neat to not have to steer it because it's all of a sudden, it's already missing on its own. And that is a really cool thing to see even in. We've been around for about six years. And so it's been really nice to see how that has worked in covering sports in general. You know, with the beginning, it was, let's talk about so and so's wife or girlfriend. And now it's turned into Rockstar was out there taking, taking names, doing what she does best. And that's really cool, huh? Yeah, that would that would be a really interesting part of what you're doing is being able to watch that evolution. And let's hope it continues to go. I hope so, too. And I think that leaves a lot of faith and motivation for women's sports in other countries. I mean, I look we're we're heading to Australia for the Women's World Cup next year. Yeah. Right. And so we have a dear friend who lives in Perth, so we're gonna go visit him and go to some games with our kiddos. And I look forward to if it's the right season. What else can we fit in there? What else can we see? And, you know, learning for me, he also did a our friend Toby. So shout out to you, Toby. Did a whole write up for us on rugby. Yes, that's a whole thing that we're slowly with. We've kind of grown more lacrosse than rugby. But it's really a fun sport that people my brother played rugby in college. And so it's neat to learn so much about and it's fun to, for us to bring a different perspective on the world. And sports just joins, they join together. And so it's really neat to be able to share some of those insights into other sports that maybe are more much more popular in other countries. Absolutely, yeah. And then I think the closest we get to yours, your American football is obviously Super Bowl. That is like they put it on Morning, probably like 10 o'clock in the morning. And of course everyone wants to see who's like the halftime show is like the biggest thing in the world. But that in itself, you know, connects people even though a lot of us don't get what's happening, but they were involved in the spectacle, you know, they they you get caught up in the whole atmosphere of it and you can sort of, you know, relate to some aspect of it to allow you to join in and and have fun with it, I guess even if it is just the halftime show. Right? That's I think that's why Super Bowl is just our favorite because it does take into account the game itself and that's interesting because you can tell stories about the players but there's so much that happens around the Superbowl and that's, you know, once again, going back to food and I think I'm gonna screw up the numbers. I think it's like 6 billion chicken wings are eaten in the US on Super Bowl Sunday. It's obscene. And it's just so it's so neat to look at the commercials and all the other things that we see in the last Super Bowl was in LA as you have this huge celebrity presence and that's just a really like that is a perfect storm for someone like last night's game because we love the non sporting side of that and that really get does give everyone something to talk about. Yeah, that's it's like, yeah, he cares about the game but what was what a singer seeing and what were they aware about the game? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your family. You mentioned the kids, you're gonna bring them out to Australia to come to the to the soccer we call soccer Night Football. What do you call over there? Do you call it soccer or football? We call it soccer. Ecosa. Yeah, we call it soccer. And then sometimes we call it football. Depending if the if the Europeans are around it gets cold. Let's take a fusing because we've got AFL out like Australian rules football. And then we've also got Rugby League, and we've got rugby union. So there's like four different footballs. So the black and white one, that's the one we're going with. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So I have a little munchkin and he is three and a half. I affectionately refer to him as the tiny human. And, you know, he's just he's been trying to break in here for the past few minutes. And he's a he's a great little dude. And so we'll bring him on his first big trip to Australia and I think we're taking him to Singapore to figured why we're in Perth. You might as well take the five hour flight north. Oh, yeah, go check out go back to Singapore because we haven't been back since. Since we moved in 2015. So I'm really looking forward to that and it can be neat. I love I love showing him. Women who could do great things in sports and I have this big this big thought process. sense of women really need to be able to teach their children or coach their kids sports teams. And because I think that's important for them to see leadership in all facets, you know, they see they see us lead in the home, probably work or whatever else we might do. But that's one spot where you could also lead and I mean, I'm not going to coach high school football, because I know nothing about what football strategy. But you know, it's, it's really interesting, too. We're on where he's playing in his first soccer team share, and he's three and a half. And, I mean, he's mostly about digging holes in the dirt, and crying on the sideline and snacks, which is fine. All fine. We're there we try. Well, we tried to get him to go into the game. But um, you know, it's like that. So next year, I'm going to put my hand up and say, How can I? How can I help because I think it's important for them to see that leadership and, and not just the moms coaching the girls teams, but the moms coaching the boys teams. And so I think that's just, you know, it's one more step of leadership where we continue to show our children how we can lead. And when they're that little, it's, it's the time commitment is much different than obviously when they're much, much older. But I just I feel like that's just another way to, can you just show up and continue to show we're just as worthy as anybody else to lead a team, and to continue to motivate a group. So I don't know. I don't know, I can't motivate my own child to get on the field. So I'm not sure how that works for everybody else. But I can relate to that story about your son is my little fella. He's now 14. He here, like Australia is a big sporting country like clear sport culture, especially in a country town. Yeah, you know, winter is footy and netball, and summer is tennis, and cricket. Like that's it. And for a child, that's not a massive leap, interested in sport that's really challenging. And we learned pretty early on that Alex wasn't going to be a traditional sports player. We tried to get him to play soccer. And I remember he just used to run around, there was a little boy, he just used to run around with him. And they'd just be off down the end of the page, doing whatever else is concentrating really hard and take it really seriously and then just like, rolling around. Well, like, Okay, this is our Sunday morning. So yeah. So what does he do? What did he what kind of activities did he get into, he ended up he played baseball for a while, actually. Okay. And he really enjoyed that, because we worked out that he liked things that changed often. And okay, everybody got a turn, because the thing with soccer, it's unless you're very good, you're not going to get near that ball. So I think he worked out pretty quick that he wasn't at the level that perhaps some other kids were and then he was getting left out. So that led to the messing around sort of thing. But, you know, baseball is awesome, everyone lines up, everyone gets a bat, it changes quick, as often they'll get out, you know, three, three year out, and off, they go. And then you run out into the field for a while and you mess around out there for a bit and they become daisies. And so that was was perfect for him. He did that for I think probably three seasons. And now he's he's doing some music and some other things. But yeah, it was really except for you with creativity. Oh, it was just really good. My other son's gonna be completely different. It's like, we're trying to actually just wait till he gets a bit older because he will do anything. So we're sort of don't want to start just driving him around to everything. Be careful what you wish for. Yes. Yeah, he's gonna I think he will take that traditional route. But yeah, I don't know. It's an as a country town in Australia, baseball hasn't been a massive thing. You know, certainly they have the teams in, in the cities. But, you know, games like that are awesome. And I had no exposure to baseball growing up. So that was a real learning curve, for me working out how the game actually flowed. And was that was that? I don't know, the foul balls used to get me all the time. Like, why are they trying to catch it? And so they were found like, ah, you know, it's it's a learn and and that's I think that's the most interesting thing about sports is you can learning something new and like, it's like cricket. I knew nothing about cricket minus, you have the bowler and a couple of different things. And there's tiebreaks that I mean, I'm here for yes, we have. I mean, I'm here for that. It's just so funny. It's like wait, because Matt, you go to a sporting event that can last for five days, but And so but it's so neat to to continue to evolve and learn and when you can find a team or someone to get on board with so when we moved to Singapore, they have an F Formula One race there. We'd never watched Formula One. I'm a daughter of a mechanic and car guy and so I would why NASCAR and we watch all the race car stuff. Yeah, but I've never watched Formula One. And we thought, Well, my husband thought, well, we need to kind of learn this because it's happening like right in front of our house. And so it was so fun. Because once you get into it, and you start paying attention, you start learning all the little quirks, you start learning all the little things and the different characters, right, have different athletes. And so it's I wish that some of those sports were more readily available for us to see in the US. And because I do think there's just such a cool opportunity to learn and to dive in. And if you ever need a one on one on any sports, just holler because I have it. So we have a we have a bunch of them on our website, because it is it's sports, gambling, sports, betting and those kinds of things that make the game more fun or might get you involved somehow. And so it's how you make it. Once again, going back to how do you make it relatable? Yeah. interested? Just a little bit. Yep. Now I love that. Two things are just thought of when we're talking about that. I love Formula One. And we had our Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne, just last weekend, which was just so great. That I've had a friend I worked with who was watching drive to survive on Netflix, the show about the whole thing, which apparently isn't in Perth isn't perfectly true. Apparently, there's some drivers who have said that they, you know, change the plot slightly. We I mean, it's going to be interesting for television, I can understand that. Right, exactly. But since she was watching that, now, she's really interested in watching them in real life. So that is really cool. I've heard from quite a few people, actually. Yeah, and you're right, like the characters like it's literally like you have the goodie in the battery. And it can be set up any way you like to take it. But this is pretty exciting. I like I'm liking where this is going. But also what you said about over the years, like I'm a big course racing fan. And a lot of the races you'll go to around here they have a have the fashions on the field where you can get dressed up and win prizes and stuff. And I, a lot of people have come to the races with me because they want to dress up. And then when they get there, then I try and explain to them how to put a bed on or you know how to follow this particular trainer or like pick them out by the colors or, you know, you go down to the stalls and see the horses and but that's the thing that what that's what brings them in, and then they can, you know, get involved in whatever way they want. That's exactly it. Yeah, it's that little hook, just like your son. And he, once he realized that you need something that changed a little more rapidly. That got him involved. And so that's once you get that little hook, then you start to develop all that around it. And it is really neat. And it's neat to see how they've they've started. I mean, now that you have all these different TV streaming platforms that they're they're taking these stories like drive to survive and different things that they're making them interesting, where you're getting a little bit more of the behind the scenes and the human interest story of a sport versus just the stuff you see on the actual game. Yeah. And I think that's as a woman, I think it's you need to make connections with people. I think like that's what I mean. That's what certainly draws me to Formula One. Like I love hearing the drivers what they're thinking and they do have a lot of access to people these days, like people are very generous with their time. And I love watching them talk about Formula One again, but before a race didn't have me they do have the Sky News in the sky in the UK have the the rights for and they do this pit, the pit lane walk and they will walk through the actual crowd of all the drivers are actually on the grid, they're actually ready to drive. And then we'll walk through and chat to like maybe the race director or the chief engineer, whatever, and people are just, they'll just chat for like two or three seconds and off they go. And the access to people is incredible these days, which is amazing. And then like you get to know the race directors like people love toto like they people have their favorite people that they go for because they've made a connection with a person. So they go for that chain, you know. So I think that's a massive part and that's the thing that I think for so long, having been in charge and I'm putting that in inverted commas air quotes of sport only gave it was only sort of interesting from one perspective, it was interesting from what was on the field or what was on the track or whatever. But you get women involved in you get the behind the scenes and you find out that Christian Horner is married to one of the Spice Girls you know, you find out all this stuff that you wouldn't have men because men don't care about but as women we're like interested in people. So we bring so much to the sporting world. That's a really and I think that is a truly that that gives you a buy in if you will to a team or a driver because the more you I mean that's really think about it when you go to a sporting event. As a kid if you get a t shirt or you catch a ball or you get an autograph or whatever you have any sort of interaction with that team besides just showing up and eating up you know pretzel or some popcorn, it continues to get that buy in right now you have an affinity, you feel like you have an affiliation to that team. And so the more that we can buy into really learning to love a team and whoever that might be, whether it's an athlete or the story behind a team, I think it's so important. I mean, it truly is, it goes into that whole branding perspective, right of the more you can tell your story, and direct the conversation you want it to be, the more you're going to get people to buy in and get excited about it. So I think it's, I think it's awesome. And you're seeing a little bit of that here. There's still some sports that are US sports are a bit resistant to that. But you're for the most part, you're seeing a lot of them who are progressive, saying, all right, sure. Let's put a microphone on the guy and you know, in the outfield, or whatever, our preseason covered a preseason training on HBO. And so it's been it's it's neat to see. And, you know, I always talk about sports and the way I kind of rationalized because we first started last night's game, people were like, oh, it's sports for dummies and like, Well, no, because nobody's a dummy. Everyone's smart at their own thing. And so I think to me, I look at that and say, Okay, this is just another tool in your tool belt, you know, we watch the news to have information about what's going on in the world. And we whatever we're into, we might study or craft or follow people on Instagram and learn different things. And this is just one more tool in our tool belt to be successful. And I think that, to me, that's walking into a conversation being able to pull from a couple of different hats that I might have, and say, Okay, I'm talking to this guy here from Texas, I bet I could talk to him about, I don't want to talk to him about politics, because that's just messy. But you know, I could probably talk to about football, because it's football season, whatever that might be. And so it's just having that extra armor, to be able to kind of conversation, that extra tool to be able to shift a conversation into what is comfortable for you, allows you to create that someone, and hopefully a lasting relationship. Hmm, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Not? I love it. I think it's awesome. And you're right. It's not saying it for Dummies, you're not? You're not like teaching people the rules of something like you're actually you're like you said, you're relating it to, to an aspect of real life, I suppose. And so then it allows you to bring it into life without, you know, you're not memorizing stats or that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah, it's a really, what's the word? I can't think of what the word I was thinking of. But anyway, that word, this is like that. Your son is three and a half. So how do you find the time to do all this stuff? How does it work? Well, it definitely helped. So I went back to school to get my, my MBA when he was one and a half. And that happened to be about three months before everything locked down for COVID. So that was a whole perspective shift. I already knew my life was going to be busy. And busier, if you will. And so it's kind of funny how, you know, the reason I did that is I love to continue to learn, I love to continue to evolve. And I was talking to a friend who had earned her master's. And she's like, do it now. Because when they're seven or eight, you're missing birthday parties, you're missing baseball games, and they know you're gone at one and a half, they don't know you're gone. And so that was a huge, I think it took me as if people know, when you become a parent, whatever you did before, I don't know, you know, you're like you could get that everything done in two and half the time because you're just you have to consolidate your time and your work effort. And so I would say that I've just learned to work at this little more of an elevated perspective and an elevated pace. And so, you know, it's it's also for me, it's trying to figure out how to streamline things. That's a big piece of what we do because it's my brother and I and he works halftime. He's sort of my sports. He's my information cultivator. He's the one bringing in the information. Given that to me, I write it we handle all the writing I do all the editing for the podcast, social all the things. For me, it's I feel like that sorry, this is a very roundabout way to answer your question. No, no, go for it. But it It's streamlining work. And that is truly streamlining it to make sure I can get done. When I get done in my, my timeframe I've given myself, but also giving myself a little bit of a break. And that's something I didn't do during school that I've had to reteach myself is, you know, I get up early I work usually before he wakes up, I get everybody out the door that I work in, during the day, and then I pick him up from school about five o'clock. And somewhere in there, I try to get in a workout just to keep my sanity. And then we do dinner. And some days I go back to work after bedtime. And some days I don't. And that's one thing, like I said, I had to kind of retrain my brain because after, during school, after bedtime, I would get to my computer and do schoolwork, probably till midnight, one o'clock, and then get back up again at five o'clock and go all over again. And so I actually found that I'm more productive. When I give myself a break at night, I give myself time to decompress, and start over in the morning, I feel so much more mentally refreshed, I sleep better because I'm not closing my laptop at 1030 and trying to go to bed at 1045. And so it's it's it's a tough lesson to learn. But I've just learned to kind of reprioritize things and I use a project management software called Asana. And that's how I keep track of everything because it allows me to prioritize, but also see that full list that I can prioritize move things around as we need to. And so that is, to me is really important. And I'm trying to make my family a priority to and myself a priority because I believe that, you know, you truly need to put at the airplane you need put your oxygen mask on first, because if you can't breathe, nobody else is going to be able to do that. So I really do try to factor in those little things that might be a 30 minute workout. And sometimes that's in the morning, sometimes it's in lunch over the lunch hour, sometimes it's, you know what I've got, I'm going to pick them up from school sweaty, because I've just jumped I it is what it is, that keeps my sanity. And so I'm working from home too, that's any way you can get a break to just take a 10 minute walk outside around the neighborhood and come back. And especially on those big writing days where I'm trying to create a lot of content, that break is just huge. And so it's really funny to say I do less to do more. But I've kind of found attempted to find this happy medium of continuing to fuel myself and allow myself to grow, while also busting my butt while I am in front of my computer. That's that's really valuable. I think because a lot of I think there's been this culture, for a while of just going hard getting it done, you know, this hustle, I'm putting that in air quotes again, you know, you've just got to keep going and keep going and get it all done. And then at the expense of what you know, your relationships, your health, you know, everything falls apart. So it's awesome to hear that you've got that, that sort of balance that works for you. Because I'm just reminded of this, you know, when you sit, you're scrolling Instagram, and you see things come up and you just pause for a moment, then you keep going. There was there was one the other day about, we've started to see rest as well, we have been seeing rest as a reward, rather than a thing that's actually required to, to keep us sane, to keep us healthy to increase productivity. So I feel like there's, there's another little shift going on, where people are saying, hang on a minute, this isn't sustainable. We can't, we can't keep doing this. Right. And when when we're working from home, there's no separation between work and home at that point. So you might change rooms, but you're still in the same scenario. And so, you know, for for fitting for all of us it you've got to find that, that that space to just step away. And that's kind of what I've started doing at work too though, when when I first started working from home full time, you know, I'd get up and do the dishes or I'd throw it a little laundry or something like that. Yeah, now I've just said no laundry happens on Saturday. You need something watch beforehand, throw it in like it can sit there or you watch it yourself. But it's one of those where I'm not distracting myself with other tasks. Yeah, try not to distract myself with that it's focusing on when I'm at work I try to just do it like I'm at an office like I'm at work I'm working. Yeah, and so that way I'm not the dishes get done at the end of the day or when I make lunch or whatever that might be so yes, trying to define those little compartmentalize the best we can which I know that's really not our best skill as women. Yeah, but I think it's really really good what you're saying about like setting those boundaries even though we are at home and doesn't mean we have to be in like mum mode and you know, set the set the washing machine Shane and quickly go hang it out. Because it's a nice day, you know? Right. Like, yeah, you're right, keeping that the cup compartmental I can't say that we get to compartmentalize one, it's hard. I mean, you're creative as well. I mean, it's when you're in a creative space, you really do have to focus. Because if you start to think, oh, the dishes are dirty, oh, I just heard the dishwasher go off, I'll go empty that you can't you really, I mean, I work in house by myself, but I still put my headphones in. Because it just blocks out all that ancillary noise and allows me to focus because I can't write if I'm hearing the garbage truck drive by and all those things. And so it's when sometimes you just when you're in that creative headspace, you need to just just check the world out the best way you can. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's cool. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. One of the lovely topics I love to talk about with all my moms is mom guilt. And I realized that it comes in all forms, or it may not come at all. And that's great. That's one of the great things about talking about it. So what's your thoughts on mommy guilt? Amy? I think it I think it is alive and well, at least in my house. And I have, I mean, it ranges from you just lose your patience with them. And you snap and you're like, Okay, that was probably not the best move by me. But also, you were being really horrible. And I can't take it anymore to the fact that sometimes you have to say, Hey, bud, I gotta finish this, this needs to be done for work. When I'm done, I'll come play with you, whatever that might be insert activity here. And it's, but it's alive. And well. And it's really interesting. So I do a lot of chats on my Instagram stories. And I talk a little about the mom guilt and how that is tough on days when it snows it's a snow day and you're stuck at home with your kid. And they've watched three movies by 2pm. And that's it is what it is. I mean, I think we're all fine. We've probably done that somewhere along in our lives. But that that mom guilt is alive and well. And I, I've had a couple of people say, Well, you're just imagining mom guilt, it doesn't need to exist. My kids watch TV today, too. And I didn't feel bad about it. Michael, that congratulations to you. I'm really that is fantastic that that's how you can run your household. And that's how you feel. That's, that's fine. This is how I feel. And you're right that it does, you don't do give me a dose of confidence to say that I need to be easier on myself, I appreciate that. But I think that's the interesting part of being a mom. And you know, my mom, my mom, I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she went since I was little till now because a lot of the, you know, from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with the mixer and the whole nine yards and like, this is how mom does them. This is how grandma doesn't. And they're both okay. Yeah. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of the things and I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much. us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and whatever that might be. Or, you know, we see people on Instagram who, you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take to the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like, how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do. And what we just have to let go. And like when I was in school, we take away a lot because it was like, Okay, well we have peanut butter and jelly, pancakes, eggs, or we can go down the street and get a salad and that's just, that's just where we live. We lived for two years because, you know, it was that was what we had time for. And that's just how sometimes that works. And we're all going to be okay for it. You know, I joke that I never ate a blueberry that was not in a muffin until I went to college. And I still do are not okay, I varies now it's fine. I'm a reasonably healthy human. You know, it's it's one of those where we all have to just give ourselves a little bit of a break. And I don't know, what is What's your perspective on mom guilt? Because I think you said everyone's take is different. I hate it, I wish it would never existed. Because I think that I feel like I get a bit, I start to get a bit passionate about things. I'll try and curtail myself, but I feel like it's an excuse. For mums to be bashed on, basically, I feel like, I mean, I feel like it has its place in some regards. Like, it's almost like a little voice that might help you decide what's important to you, or how you're tracking in that time, like, like, if, if I don't call it the devil on your shoulder, like the little voice in your ear that might say, now, you know, you've been out four times this week, you probably should be home tonight. But then the other side says, well, actually, you've got a show on at the moment. So you rehearsing for it. So this is important to you. So you go, okay, that's fine. But then another time, the voice might go, Well, actually, you haven't put your child to bed this week, because you've been out going to the movies or catching up with friends. And then you go, Oh, actually, that's true. Maybe I should slow down a bit, you know. So situations or whatever, every, everyone's different in different things, and which is awesome. But I feel like it's an excuse for mums to get a bad deal or the roar end of the deal. It's like, you are allowed to do things for yourself. And it's very important that you do things for yourself. And it's up to you and your family to work out. Where that line is, I suppose of what's manageable for you guys, I think and that you write when you look at social media, I feel like it's, it's it's an opportunity to compare, and to feel judged, and to beat in to judge others. Because I feel like as moms, we're really, we're really bad at judging, like we judge each other. It's I'm not talking about, you know, just people that don't have children, judge us we judge each other. So that'd be good if we stopped doing that. But yeah, we compare ourselves a lot. And we've got to remember that the lives that we see on Instagram are generally a very curated version of that person's life. Absolutely. So we everyone has a different, you know, level of support lives in a different part of the world has a different cultural background, everyone has different values of what's important to them and different styles of mothering. So no, two of us are exactly the same. So we can't compare ourselves, you know? No, to an excellent perspective, really, truly. Yeah, I think it just does more more harm than good. It really does. And it makes no one feel any better. Right? I just I it always sticks in my mind when, when Roy was little he was I really didn't take any time to stop working. But I mean, I had a C section at 7pm, because I was in labor for 24 hours in a C section at 7pm. My mom stayed with me that night, because my husband had to be at a meeting with customers the next morning. And so you know, what I saw, we had a woman come in and help us help me at night for like three nights a week, just so I could sleep. Because he did it, he did not sleep at all, he was a crazy little human. But I had one of my friends from from back in Phoenix, say to me, must be really nice to have all this help. And I said, Well, you know, in all fairness, I don't have any family help. And my husband's gone 50 to 60% of the time. So I need a break. I can't I can't do it all. And so like, I appreciate you dropping that judgment on me. But I don't have any lot of a ton of support. So I have to pay for my support. So that's just, that's what I'm, that's the situation I'm in. And I would love to have a husband who is home all the time to also help and have my mom around the corner. But that just wasn't feasible. And so you're right, though, as we step back and look at what everyone does, and how we handle all the things we need to appreciate and understand that there are a lot of other pieces that we don't, that we don't see. And you know, I I say I joke that it might your children's school might be the same way we're not allowed to have. We're no longer allowed to have homemade treats brought in. So those are things we get homemade treats. Yeah. So they ought to be individually packaged and from from an external source. Yep, that is the best thing that's ever happened to me in my life. Because I'd be making the sad light blue frosting cookies. I mean, it's like the best thing that's ever happened to me because, you know, my mom talks all about how she's a working mom who had two kids in both in activities and my dad went to work at 530 in the morning and came home at seven o'clock. And she was doing homework and all the things and how it will be some sort of something and she had to make something. She was like okay, well, we're in my spare time. You know, she shows up my mom's A Fabulous Baker. But, you know, she shows up with some cookies or something and someone else shows up with his Barbie Kassala cake. She's like, well, here's here's my sad cookies, you know. And where she said it's just it, things have shifted so much. And there's certain things that have, she also didn't have Amazon were food grocery delivery. That might be the only reason I survived with a newborn was Amazon delivery because I would never remember to order diapers till 2am When you're sitting in the chair and going, oh, please just go to sleep and crap or out of diapers has changed for the better. And so we're just there, there are definitely things that make it a little bit better. So there's that when you said before you compared like that your son can go with your mom and do some baking. I feel like it's something we forget as mums, it's really important that when we're not with our children, if he's with your mum, that's a really important thing for him to be doing to, you know, we can't give them everything. And this might even sound like I'm trying to justify having other people look after my children. But it's, it's really important for them to create relationships that don't involve us. Absolutely. So good for for that other person to to have that relationship with your child. It is and it's hard, it's really hard to sometimes, and I don't know about your boys, but mine is like would be glued to my hip all day, every day. If he could be he just like always wants to be with mom, which I, I appreciate it. And one day, he's going to be 15 and want nothing to do with me, I'm going to go fishing with dad or something. But I do think I think about the times that I value where I spent time with my my grandparents and how much fun I had watching The Golden Girls and putting on a face mask with my grandma who took her dentures out in the teeth. And we sat at a great old time. And that was, I think that is so important. And I think that gives them a different perspective to you know, it's, it gives them something to come back and talk about because there are going to be things that grandmas and grandpas say or have a different perspective on or thinking in a different way. And it's a good thing to talk about, like what we what we do as a family versus all the things but it's true everyone gives everyone brings a different value to their life. And just like we can't, we can't do it all. As individuals, we can't bring all the things to them. And so for them to go learn that and just and I think I had to step back at one point. And I really hated you know, my, my mother and I was so sweet. She takes my son now to school almost every morning. And I hated feeling like I was saying, Could you do want to take him to school because like it was a favor to me and I but I had to step back and say, This is awesome for her. She's loving, she gets him by himself for 20 minutes in the car in the morning. And they talk about things from classical music to trees and things that I would probably not talk about in the car with him. And she loves it, it helps me. And so I was once again stepping way back from the mom guilt, she's so happy, she can help because she knows what it's like, she can take that piece and that's something she can do and do well. And it's just it's it is a you have to step back sometimes and say I got a I gotta give you give you the distance, right. And I had a girlfriend when when Ray was born, he said to me, if you do your job, right, at 18 years old, your child will move out of your house and never move back in. And you have to make decisions sometimes based on knowing that that is a future, a future forward thinking forward thinking where you might have to say, You know what, I'm kind of uncomfortable letting you go play in the backyard by yourself. But you know what, just go do it and say where I can hear you. But those little pieces of freedom then give them that onus to continue to grow. And I say this as a person with a three and a half year old. So people will 25 year olds don't judge me because I'm I'm you know, I have a three and a half year old and I'm just we're all doing the best we can so send pointers if your kids are still alive at 25 Because I don't know how I'm gonna make it that far. But um, you know, so it's, it's it is going back to that, letting other people teach them things and some of those things might be not what you want them to learn, right? I mean, you know, it's not ideal that, you know, Grandpa takes him for ice cream and then exam candy at the grocery store and drops them back off at home. You're like, well, thanks a lot, but yeah, it's part of it's part of the things that they do and it's part of that sort of thing that they're gonna have build a memory and maybe learn why you shouldn't eat candy and ice cream on an empty stomach and that's you don't feel so good later either. So yeah, there's always a lesson in there somewhere. There's always a lesson in there somewhere in our mothers, we're always right. That's, yeah. I love that. I've got so many oh my gosh, my dad with my children. It's like he's, I don't recognize him sometimes, because he's such a different grandparent to what he was, as a father, just so much more relaxed and easygoing, and the stuff that would have, you know, got him all riled up when we were kids is like, Ah, whatever. Like, I remember one day, my sister and I were sitting there watching going, Who is this man? Like? It's so love. It's fantastic. Yeah, it's, it's, I just want when my parents fencing like my grandchildren, keep me young and keep me alive and keep me going. Because it is, it's that whole new lease on life, that is this little ball of energy or multiple balls of energy, if you have extra more than one kiddo. And it's just so neat to see them. I mean, my mother wears wears him out. She's in she's in her mid 60s And he's he's zonked out at three and a half. And she's like, Hold on, I'm gonna keep going, let me go make dinner and we're gonna make cookies. And he's like, Oh, love that. It's super, it's awesome. I think it's so great. One of the things I really love talking to moms bear is the concept of their own identity, and how that might have been challenged and changed when you actually had a child? Did you sort of go through some shifts in pace or yourself? That's a great, that's a great question. And I think it's something that people don't talk enough about. Because I do feel like, there is this weird, there is this weird shift. And I, it's funny, because when I was when I first started telling some people I knew in a leadership program I was in there, I was pregnant. One of the guys said to me, how are you going to raise two babies at once being a business and your child? And I was like, Well, I really haven't thought about it. But to be all, in all fairness, I'll figure it out. That's what I've done with everything else in my life. I'll figure it out. And then you start to watch, as you know, people kind of talk to you about how's the baby going to impact your career. And finally, I just got tired of it. And it was just I just, I started doing my smart asset answers of what why don't you ask my husband, I was going to impact his career. Like, why are you asking me? And yes, I understand that I am the primary parent and that I am the one who does all the things. We that's just how most women handle life, right? But I was like, please stop that. That's not fair. To me. It's not fair to my child. And, and it is, it's hard. It's hard to figure out kind of where you fit in there. Because I'm not a, I'm not a mom who's probably going to wear the shirt with my kids face on it. You know, and that's just, that's just not me. There's a mom for every type of person. And I appreciate and respect all of those that do. And I really do, because I think we all own it, how we own it. And for me, it was really important to continue to work and continue to push and actually meeting with a friend last week. And she's in an investment group. And we were I was talking to her and she said, It's just she said, I'm a better mother, when I drop my child off to school when I go to work. And I said me too, that's just how I operate. And that's how I was raised, though I was I don't know anything really different. And but I said, you remember that one that first time when you got out and you went, you dropped your kid off with lifting with dad or babysit or whatever, that grandparent when they were little. And you went out and you went to a meeting or something and you got in the car and you were like, Yes, I still have it. I can still do this. She was like I do remember that moment. Yeah. So that to me was that moment of like, okay, I don't have to completely get rid of one to be the other. And you can be all the things. And what I've tried to to just step back and look at is having a child has made me a better worker. It's made me a better boss. It's made me a better investor, a better board member, all these things, because I've been able to have sympathy to a certain perspective. And I think COVID has also taught us all that in general. But it allows me to put a perspective and his spin on things that really, it puts things as we kind of talked about earlier. It puts everything in perspective. And there's something that says, you know, why is that? Why are we even arguing about this? This is silly. Let's go ahead and XYZ and so I really do feel like it's stepping back and being able to own what I'm good at, and be good at what I'm good at, and still attempt to be a good mom. And but not let any of that define me. I think it comp they all complement each other. Yeah, but I try not to let any of those pieces define me. And I think I learned that really early in my career. I had some pretty rough female bosses for a while including one who fired me and then fired the subsequent two other women she hired after me to fill my position. And I just realized that that was a huge identity loss for me because I was my job. And I think at that point, I realized that I can't ever truly make myself synonymous with anything, I want to try to be able to always be my own person. And I want to be a me but I also am happy to be worries mom, and Reagan's wife, and last night's game, co founder and sister to Scott, my last night's game, co founder and a daughter, and all those things. Because all of us have all of those facets. It's just how you own it. And it works for me, it might not work for somebody else. And I think that continues to go back to the point where we continue to be sympathetic to each other. And understand that it truly takes all of us to make the mom World Go down, go around, and the more we can support each other, the better off we can be and, and also make I don't know, to me, it's nice to hear someone say, Man, I lost I, I I lost it on my kids this morning. That drop off was rough. You're like mine to okay, I'm not the only one who's crazy. Okay, thank you. Yeah. And I think there's some sort of community and that of saying, Okay, it's hard for you to okay, I appreciate that. Because that means I'm not crazy. And I think is that continue stepping back and looking at the real life situations versus the Instagram perfect stuff. Because that is right, that's, we're really a community of like minded, same people. When it comes to motherhood, we all look a little different and one, one faster another. But ultimately, we're all still trying to do the same thing. And we're all probably feeling guilty about something similar. And we're probably getting driven crazy about something similar. And so and we all just want our kids to eat their fruit, vegetables, and grow up to be good humans, you know, like that. Get a decent job be a good human. Yep, some vegetables and some fruits. So you can you know, live a long life. I mean, you love it. I don't know, how about you like, what's your what's your take on that? I'm, from your perspective. The thing about being honest with each other is something that I find really intriguing because I'm the sort of person that I tell things how it is I'm extremely honest. You know, I've been really opening sharing different parts of my life. I've had experience with mental health issues. And I've talked about that openly a lot. And I think it's important to talk about stuff that I remember when I went to my first we have this thing over here called mothers group, when you have a baby, they put you in a group of all the people that had babies at the same time. And so you don't know these people, they're just random people. The only thing in common is that your babies were born, you know, within a day or two of each other. And I remember sitting with this bunch of women the first time and everyone had to go round and talk about their baby. And everyone seemed to be just perfect. Everything was going great for everybody. And I just thought what is going on here? Like, am I the only person whose baby wakes up after 45 minute naps? Am I the only person who's having trouble establishing breastfeeding? Right? I thought what the hell is going on here? So I did say a little bit of stuff. And when I said that, one of the other ladies sort of I could see her look at me like, Oh, thank god you said that. Because now I feel like I can say that, you know? And then the more we talked, it all came out. And I think people have this idea that you've got a nice set up your the way people see you is got to be a certain way and has to be right and you can't let any like crack show. I don't know. resets never bothered me. I think, you know, I've always thrived on like, really deep, honest relationships and really good honest talks. And that's why I love doing this too, because I get to talk to people in really good under the surface ways. Yeah. So it's like my sister at the moment like her daughter is a year almost exactly a year younger than my little fella who's six, nearly six and a half and we just compare drop off stories like you're just talking about like, Oh, I couldn't get them in the car this morning. And I told her to put her sucks And I'm like, yeah, no, I had that with the shoes, you know, and being honest with each other and not sitting there going, Oh, Everything went perfect for me and then making the other mom feel like a failure. You know, we got to know each other, support each other and have each other's back. Yeah. And I would also say on the flip side of that is to really celebrate each other. And that is something interesting. I have a group of girlfriends from my MBA class. And I should say that I traveled out of state every other week to Chicago, for my MBA, so I, I really like my husband was primary parent. And that was a whole shift for us. Luckily, it was COVID. And that doesn't sound right. Not luckily, it was because of COVID. He wasn't traveling. So he was a primary parents. So I really got a chance to actually embrace and make friends, sort of outside of my family, too, because I wasn't having to rush home to them as well. But I have a group of girlfriends that were on the same text message group. And to this day, that's the one where you go to if you have a big win, like, Hey, I got a promotion. And this group is so on board with, you know, we're I think women are so humble in the sense that we don't celebrate our own victories to someone else to celebrate others. And so but I love this group, because it's like, Hey, I got a promotion, oh, my god, you guys, I just landed this, or whatever that might be. And I love it. That group is very much you don't feel uncomfortable celebrating or telling your victories. And I think that's something you know, I really strive to do is seek out these things that my friends have done and, and celebrate them. And I'm a huge fan of snail mail. I love sending greeting cards, the more inappropriate the better. And so I have a whole entire box in my desk that's like, I don't know, probably 200 cards that when I find ones I like I buy them. Yeah, because I just I love that little act of recognition of who doesn't love to get mail. I mean, it goes back to like the day when you have a pen pal, right? Yeah. And so I just love that. And I love celebrating other people. Because everyone works really hard. I don't care if you're a mom, your dad, you don't have kids, you're a dog, Mom, I don't care. You everyone works their butts off. And so if we can celebrate even these little wins, whatever that might be, and you worked out five days in a row, you ate a carrot today. I don't whatever it sound like I'm gonna design some sort of weird Health Net, but I'm not. You finished a whole bottle of wine, let's celebrate. You know, I think there's just i just i There's life is so serious and so full. So being honest. And then then also owning your stuff that you are awesome. And it's great for you to be here to see this. And let's celebrate you and I encourage you if you haven't, there's the Today Show, which is like one of the morning TV programs here. On our one of our big networks here in the US. Two of the there's two morning anchors, they're both females. They're both just this last weekend inducted into the Hall of Fame for broadcasting. Oh, wow. And the one lady her name is Hoda copy. And she gave this speech and talked a lot about how really, everybody, these people, the celebrities that she's interviewed who are so astoundingly accomplished. Don't feel these women don't feel like they're worth it. She doesn't feel like she's worth it. And so let's talk about how we need to earn it because you're worth it. And she went through this whole format speech and it's it's quick. But it's so well done that I actually bookmarked it on my Instagram, because it's one of those things when you need a pep talk. That's that speech where you are worthy, you are worth it. And so celebrate you and that I mean really, that goes back into the mom guilt thing full circle of we have to just give ourselves a break sometimes and celebrate the little victories in our day, you know, what can add underwear on today? Some days that is harder than others. So let's just call that a when we have underwear on, we think we might have two shoes on, they may not match. They may not even be the right feet known to go out and like a rain boot and flip flops. And so, I mean, yeah, we just celebrate those victories that we have and the beauty we can find in our own little worlds of, you know, just stop and figure out what that might be. And, you know, sometimes that's a 15 minute time to 15 minutes to sit down with your kiddo and read a book. And that might be all you have that day. But it's still 15 minutes of book time and Qt so you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's so true. Over here in Australia, we have this. It's a terrible part of our culture. I feel like it is slightly getting better, but it's not really. It's the tall poppy syndrome about if anyone else is doing really good around you. You've got to cut them down and bring him back to the same level as everyone else. And that's been a massive part of Australian culture for a very long time. And I think that that's lends itself to the fact that people don't like to talk themselves out, because they don't want to be seen as being, you know, doing well and maybe being better at something than someone else, because people will pull them down and they'll say, Oh, yeah. What about this? Yeah, you know? Yeah. And I remember years ago, because I've been singing my whole life, and we have our towns only what? 30,000 people. So you're gonna get in the newspaper, at some point. If you live in Gambia, you're gonna get in there, at some point, hopefully, for something good. Yeah, not in like the court pages. But because I've been in singing for a long time, I've done a lot of public events and fundraisers and different community things. So I've been in the paper a lot. And early on. One of my singing teachers said to me, make sure you cut your cut your articles out, don't be vain in like, don't be scared to cut them out and keep them because she said, No one else is going to do that for you. And, you know, I thought, Oh, I feel a bit funny. You know, I Oh, look, this is me, this is me. But it's like, I'm so glad that I have them now, because I have them in this little folder. And every now and then if I'm looking through the cupboard to find something else, I'll see them like, Oh, look at me, and then I'll show the kids. And it's like, it's so nice to have that. So you worked hard to earn? Yeah, yeah. So let's see. Yeah, let me no one's gonna be, right. I mean, our parents can be really proud of us, if that's what the their verbage they use, but you've got to be proud of yourself. And that's something I think also comes with age. I think when I, when I hit 40, I all of a sudden just grew up here that I didn't really know I had, and just learn to be okay with stuff. And stop trying to fit in the mold of exactly what something should be, or should it be and, you know, sort of tried to just let some stuff go. And I mean, I was always envious of older like actresses, when you would hear them in interviews, say, Well, as I got older, I just learned not to give a crap. And I think that is like what a great place to be. And, and so you know, if someone's listening, and they're, they're younger, and feeling unsure, you've got this, you own it, because guess what you've what you're gonna have at 40 is what you're gonna have at 30 You're gonna be a little bit more a little bit wiser, but own it. You know, clip your clip your your write, clip your newspaper articles and save them because that's really cool. That's an awesome accomplishment to be able to do something so magnificent. And it may mean nothing to you, and may be nothing to you. But you know, you don't remember that sometimes you're low lights or someone's highlights like they really, yeah, it's always perspective. So celebrate you and put it off, blow it up and put it on the wall. If that's what you're into. Do it. Who cares? Yeah, that's what gets you out of bed. Do it? Yep. No, I definitely agree with that 40 year old thing. It's like the amount of women I've spoken to you that have said that same thing. It's it's a thing. You honestly, you just go not do not care. Do? You know? I don't know. You just time for this. I mean, we we looked at a school for the title human for starting, like pre K and kindergarten. And one of the schools is known to have sort of a bit more of a catty mom group and I was bullied in when I in all through middle school. And so I joke to my husband, like, I'm gonna need to go to therapy to send our child to that school because I'm not going to make it. Yeah. And it turned out that there were a lot of things that made that school not not work for us, but I just thought, why? I don't want anything to do with any of that. I really don't care if my husband I don't care if that's if you want to talk shit about us, then go for it. Have at it, but leave my kid alone. Yeah, and we'll be fine. But it's just it's one of those are like why? Yeah, let's this just seems like way too much work. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. So many times in my life. I've had this saying something's gone down. And I'm like, I'm not in high school anymore. Like this. I'm beyond this. This is not this is not worthy of my time. It's not something I want to spend my energy on. You guys go for it and do what you got to do. But I'm not doing your free toilet paper by house just like high school if that's what you want to do. That's fine. Whatever. Yeah, like Yeah, yeah, it's a funny thing. What I really tried to talk a lot about and where I've sort of started to try to own my own perspective, is to support young women coming up through their careers. Because, you know, I think I mentioned it earlier that I had some I had one or two great female bosses. But I really struggled with bosses and male bosses too. And so, you know, what, what I kind of tried to do myself is be a resource, and that is to the babysitter's who come and watch the Munchkin. You know, is it, one or two of them are getting married? They're like, can you look at my registry? Can I ask you this work? Question? How do I ask for a raise? I mean, whatever that might be, I just want to be that resource. Because I think far too often women are not really set up where we don't really do mentors like men do. And I think that's something that we as women who are further along in our career in our talents that we can do, we can provide some perspective. And I think that perspective might just be the same as this isn't high school, this isn't worth it type of thing to say, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because I think because the business world has been a man's world for so long, they've formalized this mentor stuff, and it's been something they do. And it's like, we've got to try and find ways to do it. Because it's so important. It is really important. And I think about me growing up, like, all I learned from my mum about my job was how to dress and how to answer the phone and how just, you know, that sort of stuff, not how to like, say, ask for a raise how to, you know, communicate with people in your workplace, it was all the how to type? How to Answer the phone, you know? So yeah, I think that is so so important. While I think the honor the honest side of things, and, you know, I think that it's giving reviews and giving honest feedback in areas where people really can work on things and, and grow and evolve. So all those things is continuing to give positive but constructive feedback, and being honest, and that's one thing that's really funny, we were kind of out of our friends, our friends here, we're sort of on the the older end and the first have children, whereas in other places, we were kind of at the tail end of it. And we've had friends who've had kids who say, can we go to dinner with the two of you, because I know you'll give us the honest feedback about parenting and pregnancy and all of that stuff. And like, sure, that's what we're here for. I'm not going to pretend that you know, pregnancy and newborns are all like puppies and babies and toilet paper commercial, like they're not all fluffy. It's not all perfect. And so here's some perspective, I want you to know that it's fantastic. But it's also tough. There's going to be tough times where, you know, my husband would say, Well, you know, took me a long time, a little while to get, like, really feel like I bonded with the baby, and all those things. But all that stuff is things I think are things that people don't talk about, once again, going back to your baby class. And it's all normal. And so maybe it won't happen to you. But if it does know that that's okay, and know that that's normal, and your hormone fluctuations, whatever that might be. So, you know, it's really truly pick up that next generation, but be honest to maybe not to, to a fault, but provide some honest feedback and constructive criticism of work if that's where that that relationship lies and, and truly being. Because I think that's going to set us all up for success when it comes down to it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good on you. So you can find last night's game at last night's game.com We are on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter as well as LinkedIn. And I run our Instagram account. So all the stories are the kind of behind the scenes of the life of another founder, a female founder. And so you'll see the tiny human running around probably with you know, his rear end hanging out on his scooter in the front yard. You start from there to a little bit of everything. So Instagram was definitely a really fun place for us to share a story. And let's say last night's game.com And then we're on our podcasts is sports curious. And we are on all major podcast platforms and we come out on that releases on Wednesdays and it's about a five minute podcast very rarely do we go over five minutes so I'm here to make sure that your life is short, sweet and out the door and you get on your way with all the other very important things you have going on in life. Oh love that. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been it's been really lovely chatting with you. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you. I look I look forward to making the visit your way here in the next year. Yeah, well, if you if you ever need boy yell out. Well, for sure. Absolutely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Dr Melanie Cooper Australian mixed media visual artist + art historian S1 Ep07 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Dr Melanie Cooper is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide South Australia, and a mother of 2. Melanie combines painting + drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet, stitching and rug making techniques. In this episode we chat a lot about art, as Melanie’s expertise in the long 18th Century allows us to delve into the role and treatment of women artists during this era. We also discuss the importance of sharing our experiences as mothers, and the role of judgment in our current society – and how it got there. **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression** Melanie website See the Queen Victoria yarn bomb here Shop art supplies that Melanie uses here Podcast instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mom, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Dr. Melanie Cooper. Melanie is a visual artist and an art historian from Adelaide, South Australia, and a mother of two. Melanie combines painting and drawing with a mix of knitting, crochet stitching and rug making techniques in her art. In this episode, we chat a lot about art history as Melanie's expertise in the long 18th century, allows us to delve into the role and treatment of artistic women during this era. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression. Thank you for coming on, it's an absolute pleasure to have you. And I'm excited about the different sorts of things that you might be able to share as your role as an art historian, but you're also a visual artist. So let's start with that. Why don't you tell us about your own art practice? My art practice is pretty diverse. I as with my other work as well, I kind of consider myself to be an interdisciplinary artist. So I'm primarily a painter. But I also work across textiles and drawing and, you know, just a lot of a lot of different things I've been making. For as long as I can remember, like, even as a child I was, I've always been making stuff. My work is very personal to me it's very, it's, I guess it's a way for me to articulate things that I find very difficult to communicate verbally or in written language. I'm just kind of really interested in my, I mean, of course, my own experience, but also the spaces in between thoughts and ideas and experience and memory, like, you know, the things that we can't see, I try really hard to not just document experience, and those kinds of things, but also to kind of try and make my own thoughts and feelings visible in some form. So it's kind of it's a way for me to reconcile a whole heap of thinking and a whole heap of experience, but in a way that's really tangible. And so in a lot of ways, it's all about the process. For me, the end, the end point is always a great thing, because people can actually see it, but it's kind of it feels like it's work that's never finished, because I need to keep going. And it's almost ritualistic in a way, I guess, because I'm kind of quite often repeating myself, like, for example, in textiles, I'm using lots of the same sort of stitches. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking and kind of integrating all of those ideas and thoughts and memories and, you know, and, and responses to place as well, I just kind of draw lots of connections from the outside world and sort of it kind of comes in, and then I sort of spit it back out into some sort of form. I don't I don't really, it's a really, really hard thing to explain. Like, it's just it makes sense to me anyway. And hopefully, when people when people will look at it, hopefully they kind of, you know, bring their own ideas to it as well their own responses, and there's no right or wrong answer. I'm not trying to deliver a precise message. You know, people don't have to have a perfect takeaway from it, as long as they kind of, you know, respond to it in some way. I'm happy. So. And that is the great thing about I think, too, in any of its forms that people will take what they need from I suppose in their own interpretation of what, what they're in their life or what they're going through or anything like that. So you're working with textiles, Melanie, what kind of materials are you working with? So with the with my textiles, this is a little bit confusing for people sometimes I consider that to be part of my painting practice. So I work with textiles in the same way that I mean, I know it's a different material. But the way that I you approach that practice is the same way that I approach my painting with the same ideas and the same motivations and the same kinds of thinking. But I use knitting and crochet. And I also use traditional rug making techniques and just a little bit of stitching as well, but predominantly things like punching, which is punching through a hashing surface with a needle and knitting and crocheting pieces of fabric that I sort of manipulate and stitch down and explore with that kind of material material. Process is a really good way For me to sort of like think through a whole heap of stuff, and I kind of figure it out as I go, I'm very intuitive, I don't really sort of sit down and draw up a plan or anything, I kind of work it out as I go. And product, of course, it's always really important, you know, you, you do want people to engage with something that you're really proud of. And it needs to be aesthetically appealing in some way. Whether whether that's a really positive thing, or you know, something that's a bit more challenging for people, that's cool. But it really is, like, the the, for me the whole, it's the process, you know, it's the end product is really, really important, of course, but the process? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know that I would do it. If it wasn't for the process, you know, me like, I'm not just making stuff to decorate things. We thought we've got enough decoration. It's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's something that I still need to think about putting into words, because I find it really, really difficult. Yeah, it's kind of the process of experimentation and exploring, and just finding, finding out how far you can push something is really fun and really interesting as well. Yes, I like new techniques and, and working with things in different ways. And that sort of Absolutely. Tell me about your children. So I'm very fortunate to have a son who's almost 18, and a daughter, who is almost 11. So they're quite far apart in age. But they're just incredible. Little humans, you know, with very different different needs at the moment. They're both still at school, obviously. And, you know, they're both doing their own thing. And, you know, I'm, yeah, they're both. They're both very strong personalities. And of course, that comes with its own challenges sometimes, but I'm actually really proud of the relationship that I have with them. Both. Were really good mates. So I think, yeah, I love my children very dearly as all mothers do, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You say this look seven years between your toy? I've got seven years between my two. Yeah. Some people think, wow, that's huge. And in some ways it is. But in some ways, it's not. Either. It's a funny thing is, Oh, yeah. And it's, I think, I'll be interested to see how they grow as they get older, because my oldest is 12, or 13. And my little ones about to turn six. So at the moment, they have times when they absolutely cannot stand each other. But I think as they get older, and dig becomes out of that little little person stage. They might, I mean, they get on great, don't get me wrong, but things might not be quite as explosive. Do you know, honestly, things can be quite explosive with my kids. And like, that's why I say, you know, they're both very strong personalities. They're both, they're both very, very clever. And they know how to test each other. And they do they, they do get explosive. But the funny thing is as intense as that is, sometimes they also have this really intense love for each other. It's and it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll just walk into a room and I'm like, oh my god, you guys are having a hug right now. What's going on? Is everything okay? Yes, fine. Mom is totally fine. You're sure? Yeah. And it's also because I think they're very different places in their own development. Like they have very, very different needs. Like, you know, Seth, my son, he, at the moment, he just really needs his own space. Sometimes he needs his own privacy and all those sorts of things. Like he's merely an adult. And his little sister likes to kind of walk into his room unannounced and jeans and he's just like, oh, my god, get out. And you know, he's never like, he's just playing a game or something. It's not anything major, but he's just like, leave me alone. And she Yeah, of course, you know, sometimes she just wants to be around her big brother. But and he does it to her too, though. Sometimes she'll be quiet. You know, she'll be sitting on the couch or in her room doing her own thing. And he'll come in and he'll be like, all over and, you know, just in the mood for a joke. And she's like, Oh, no. Yeah, and it all kind of kicks off and I have to Yeah, yeah. It's also really lovely though, when you find them playing, like, you know, when they they take their own initiative to get the ball guy outside and kick her around the backyard together, that kind of stuffs really lovely. Yes. Something good is here. So you said before you've been creating you pretty much your whole life. Has that sort of changed then as you had your children as they came into Your Life, we starting to find that challenge the balance between you and your role as a mother. In different times of my life, definitely. So I can't, I mean, there's a few different things I could say about this sort of stuff. Like, you know, before having kids, I really believed that I needed one full solid day to get something done, you know, I always had this kind of idea that you had to have a full day. And if you didn't have that full day, nine to five kind of idea, whatever those hours were, it really like there's no point. But I've since learned, especially with my second, with Scarlett half an hour, you can actually achieve so much in half an hour. Because sometimes that's all you get. And I mean, it kind of fluctuates, or depending on what's going on with them and where you are, in state, like the stage of their life and stuff. There's been times where I found it incredibly difficult. Like, with my painting practice, for example, I like when I had my son, Seth, I found that really difficult to get back into for a while because I had quite bad postnatal depression. So that kind of was a bit of a block for me for a while. But then after a period of time, I kind of learned when I was sort of working through that I was drawing and things but I kind of went back to knitting, which is something that I've kind of always been doing since I was like about five, but then I sort of realized, you know, this is a really portable medium, and I can just pick it up and put it down, I don't have to go out and studio. So I think that's where it kind of really started becoming this thing that I've incorporated into my practice. And over time, I kind of just kept pushing it more and developing it more. And that's so that's always been there. Like I'm always, you know, carrying around knitting or crochet because it is so portable, and I can't sit on the couch and not do things. So if I have to sit on the couch and nurse a baby or rock a baby to sleep, you know. So like there's, it's there's different ways that you can still be creative, without having to go out into the studio without having to have an entire day. And, you know, try and figure out all the other logistics around that. So I've just, I think I've always sort of looked for ways that I can still fit stuff in. And, you know, like, when they're not sleeping and stuff, that's really good thinking time. So you can use that time in the middle of the night to kind of think about what do I need to do tomorrow, and you start planning and organizing your thoughts. So that when you do have that time, you can just jump straight in, he's not kind of lost, not knowing where to go, what direction to take, or what needs to be done, you can just sort of like jump in and be productive. And I think that's that kind of motivates you and gives you the energy to keep going as well. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that mother who doesn't like I don't want to say adversity, but you know, just the challenges sometimes that you face and the things that you kind of find yourself up against, that you weren't prepared for. I think that's really taught me that yeah, actually, I'm really good at improvising. And, and that's really fun in itself too. Because sometimes you kind of you end up with outcomes you couldn't predict or better outcomes than if you planned and organized everything completely perfectly and down to the last minute. Like, sometimes you just kind of go, you know, do things by the seat of your pants, and you get up the other side of you think, wow, that's actually really great. And that could lead to something else. You know, like, never in a million years would I like when I was painting in art school, I didn't think that I would be you know, knitting in my actual painting practice. I kind of thought that's the thing that I do when I watch TV. And you know, it's not really part of my, my serious art career. But now it definitely is. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun. I think you've learned so much from being a mom. Yeah. And having to having to restructure your own thinking and just make things happen. You know, not just sit around waiting for the time, but actually just making that time you have to, otherwise it will never happen. Yeah, the thing for me as well, like, it's almost like a it's a compulsion for me to make like, it always has been even as a kid like, I just always have to make something and it doesn't always have to be like a big finished painting. Sometimes it is just, you know, something with a lump of air dry clay or, you know, a drawing in the mud out in the backyard or something like, I've just always had to do something. And yeah, it's a it's a compulsion, I think. But it's also I was thinking about this the other day, I think it's also about making a space for yourself, like making art or even just making and staff has just always been a way for me to take space for myself, even as a child. You know, and I think that's just become more and more important, as an adult, when you've got more responsibilities and have to divide your time or it becomes more challenging, but then also probably more important to do as an adult. Absolutely. It's like, mental health, you know, and it's, and it's so connected with looking Yeah, looking after yourself. And so, for me, it's very much part of my identity. I think, like, it's, it's not like, the job, the great job that I've got that I go to, and I'll retire from one day, so something that I think is always has always been a part of who I am. Definitely isn't. Yeah, it's one day, you just get to hang it up and go, right i that's finished now. I'm retired. What do I do? Exactly? Exactly. Yes. It's, sometimes it would be nice to sort of like bundle it up and pack it away. But it's no, that's not an option. I don't think. Wanted to ask you just you talked about your painting, how you never thought that your meeting would become part of you the way I think you said you serious art practice? How did how did it become part? Did you one day just decide to combine it like how did it physically happen? Um, it's a very, it's a very good question. So when I was in art school, I, I realized that I detested oil painting, and I. And so I couldn't do live painting anymore. And I wasn't really interested in that anyway. And so I dropped out of that subject. And I had to do another elective and sort of make that as like a, not just an elective subject, but like a major subject, and it was rug making. And I was like, Wow, this sounds really cool. And it's using wool. Awesome, I'll do that. So I learned some techniques. And, you know, just kind of played with that for a bit and then put it away. And when I thought, I just kind of, I kind of just stuffed around with it a bit and picked it up, put it down, and just put it played with those ideas for a while. And I kind of experimented without really taking it very seriously. And then, you know, fast forward a couple of years, I became a member of a studio here in Adelaide called voting booth studios. And I shared that space with several other artists. And at the time, I think there was 12 artists, but I had brought all my things from my old studio into the space and was unpacking stuff and messing around with things and just having a look at what I had. And one of the things that I had was a half finished, rogue or wallhanging, I wasn't really sure what to call it at the time. I pulled it out as looking at it. And one of my friends looked at it and said, Oh, what's this, and I was just this thing that I've just been playing with. And he's kind of like, oh, that's, that's kind of really cool. Maybe you should think about finishing it. I was really, okay. And, you know, I just wasn't at that time, I just wasn't really sure what I was doing. Because, you know, a whole heap of other stuff had just happened. And I was coming through a difficult place. But I just kind of thought, you know, this is an easy thing to pick up and just go on with, I'll maybe I'll figure out what I'm doing next. So I just kind of kept working on this thing. And then it became a finished piece. And I was like, wow. And there was just this one little engineer alpha, I don't really know what to do on this end bit. And I was mucking around with some knitting at home. And I just kind of something told me or compelled me to put that piece of knitted fabric onto the rug, and just see what it looks like. And so I was just like, wow, this is another way of combining surfaces and textures and different techniques, and actually really kind of like what's happening. And so that's what I started doing there. I sort of started messing around with it. And I was really excited by what I had discovered. And so I just kind of thought, what can I do next. And so I started making lengths of knitted fabric and started stuffing about with it in the next pieces and just kind of exploded from there. And I kind of realized, well, I can actually use knitting in the same way that I do. You know, brush strokes and different ways of applying paint, I can actually just make the paint and manipulate it and stitch it down or do something with it. And yeah, the more I do it, the more I do the more ideas or come up with and sometimes my head is just like swimming with ideas. I get really anxious because I don't know if I'm gonna get time to do it all because, you know, that's the exciting thing about knitting, sewing, and especially crochet too. It's only a couple of stitches. But the different ways that you can combine those stitches with different materials and different ways of like different combinations, you end up with so many different kinds of results. So it's exciting. And yeah, it just kind of it just kind of unraveled. And, like a very natural process. It just kind of kept expanding. From there. Yeah, really, that's really awesome story. And I think that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm really grateful for being in that studio at that time. Because, you know, if it hadn't have been for someone walking past and looking at and going, yeah, that's pretty cool. Maybe you should see what happens if you finish it. Like just that little bit of encouragement from a friend, it was like, Yeah, okay, maybe this is worth thinking about. And, you know, the same friend was really amazing, too. I credit him with encouraging me when I had my exhibition, my first solo after that, will not my first solo but my first solo for a number of years, he sort of said to me, you know, the back is the back of that piece is really cool. Maybe you should think about hanging it so people can see the back as well. And that's, that was another really important part of developing my practice as well. He sounds like a pretty useful bloke to have around. I think, yeah, he's he's very generous person. And I think that's also one of the virtues and one of the great advantages of being in a studio with other people working around you. Because sometimes, you can give each other that sort of feedback, or, you know, just the comment of someone walking past is enough to make you think twice about, yeah, actually, maybe I won't throw that in the bin, you know, maybe that is worth spending some more time on. And that's been that's been incredibly valuable to me. So I'm very, I'll always be grateful for that. So you've done also yarn bombing, create, whatever, you're gonna make your knitting or crocheting, and then you go and put it out on structures in the town, or in the city? Yes, yes, I have. And I've had a lot of fun doing that, with a group of friends. We haven't done anything for a while, that tried to make something happen just after COVID. But it kind of fell through. That's a whole other story. But yeah, that's something that I got an enormous kick out of, I have to say, because it's different. It's a bit different now. But originally, the idea was, you make something and you attach it to a public structure somewhere, but you have to do it without being caught and without anyone seeing you because it's kind of illegal. So it's kind of like, yeah, hardcore ladies hit the town. You know, so much fun. The first time the first tag I ever did was just like, this crochet length of bright blue fabric, kind of like a scarf. And I went down one of the alleyways, just for Rundle Street, and my heart was beating. So it's in the middle of the day, and I was like, whipped it on around this pole, stitching it as fast as I could. And my heart was beating so loud, it was roaring you might use skipped off down the street afterwards on such a high. It was just, it was just this simple little band of blue, but it was like yes, I have done this really cool. Outlaw thing. Yeah, that was enormously fun. And then after that, we're just, you know, I kind of need some bow ties, and I attach these bow ties on to, you know, sculptures of people's heads and stuff down North terrorists and things and in the Botanic Gardens. But the really the really cool thing was, many years ago, I can't remember exactly what year it was. But there was this sort of like a street art festival thing that was happening. A former student of mine, Peter Drew, who's now done lots of lots and lots of other things. He was organizing groups of people to paint and, you know, sort of decorate, mini skips. And so I can't I can't remember exactly where I found out about it. I think it might have been a Facebook page or something like that. There was an idea to cover it with knitting like the st. yarn bombing stuff. So I kind of just went on my own. I had no idea I didn't had I didn't know anyone who was going to this thing. I just happened to meet this bunch of gorgeous women. Very different ages, very different backgrounds, and they're all just making these squares to cover this dumpster. It was so much fun and we just got along so well and so we kind of over a period of time. found ourselves in a group that we decided to call a play on the sly. It was enormous fun. We've done so many projects we did. You know, there was a festival coId called, boy you street art festival. There was a whole exhibition in the Festival Theatre. There are a couple of bank sees and other bits and pieces in there and we were asked to cover, I think are called the Mellie tree poles outside. That's like an installation. I'm not sure if it's still there. But we covered these big long poles with, you know, different lengths of fabric and attached insects and flowers and stuff to it. That was so much fun. But one of my favorite projects was a nano nano reckless Julie Collins and I went made a dress for the statue of Queen Victoria. And we had it installed by the Adelaide City Council at like, two o'clock in the morning. They had, they had cherry pickers and council workers attaching this big knitted dress with cable ties to the statue of Queen Victoria. And it was it was so much fun. And it was part like it was around Christmas time. So it was when the whole square was decorated with different things. And just going along, to see that in the middle of the day. And seeing all these people walking past it stopping looking and taking photos of this thing that you'd made. It was just so much fun, because, you know, you're just sort of like sitting there watching everybody else getting so much joy out of this thing that we just did. Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. Yeah, we did a lot of stuff like that. We've done stuff for Matthew Flinders and Douglas Mawson, one of my friends met him at balaclava. We've done things for the Robert Burns statue at the front of the State Library. Yeah, things like that. There's been lots of stuff that the group has done, and it's just been wonderful. Yes, we haven't doing that. We're still within the group doing stuff now. Um, well, we were going to do a project for Christmas last year, back in November. And I didn't know how to say in a short way, because I don't want to sort of I don't want to sound negative. But we were asked to do a project. And then the street that we were asked to do it on. People on the the people in the street like the business owners decided no, we don't want that. And that was really, that was really sad. And I found that really upsetting because for some of the people in the group that hadn't actually been able to work on anything, as a group or for themselves for a long time, there was a one mom in there, I know that she was, you know, it was really important to her to get together and to do this thing, because she hadn't done anything for herself for a really long time. And so all of a sudden, we had this thing that was really exciting. And we were we were so excited about getting back together and doing something and it was just taken away because of mismanagement and miscommunication. You know, like the person who was organizing the thing and had asked us to do it hadn't spoken to the business owners properly. So all of a sudden, she just sort of like sent me an email one day and said, You know what, sorry, they just don't want you here anymore. And it was devastating. Actually. It was really, it was really sad. Like, I was fine with it, because I had my own stuff to go with. But as I was saying some of some of the group members hadn't hadn't been doing their own thing for a long time. And it was very important to them that we were doing it. And yeah, all of a sudden, it just wasn't there. So yeah, we do we need to get back together and do something because I think, you know, we just had so much fun together. There's no reason that we haven't done anything for a while. I think it's just like the whole COVID thing and people being busy and life getting in the way. So I think yeah, we just we just need to do it. We just, we just really need to Yeah, you know, put a date in the diary and get together and do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much fun. And we do we all work together so well. We just have very different lives in very different directions. And I think that's that's the only thing that kind of makes it a bit tricky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking about when you put your pieces up, and then you see people their reaction to that. I get so much joy and I it almost it always makes me feel like a little child even reminds me of like Easter time when when I was a kid and you'd be looking for your Easter eggs and you find them hidden in the garden and that amazing feeling of finding things. That's how I feel when I see people's creations all around the place. I just love it. It's such a beautiful I love it too, because you, I think the reason that I love it so much is because, you know, it is that generosity and that sharing and the joy. But it's also like, it kind of feels a little bit naughty or a little bit not naughty, but like a little bit. You know, people, people being creative outside of the prescribed conventional spaces of institutions and galleries and high end things, it's kind of making things accessible. And it's also like the random accidental thing of finding stuff as well as it's kind of, you know, I'm gonna make this thing and I'm going to put it out there because I can, I'm not going to ask anybody's permission to do it, not going to apply to do it. I'm just going to do it. And I love I love that. It's so it's so much fun. And it's, you know, of course, it's always with the best intentions, but it's also a little bit, you know, it's very empowering actually think it's really empowering. I know it is for me. Yeah, I think it's incredibly generous to because you're not, you're not creating it with any sort of expectation of, I mean, you aren't getting something back. But like, you know, it's not a monetary gain, you're doing it because you love it. And because you know, you're going to bring joy to paper, I think that's just beautiful. I wanted to utilize your expertise as an art historian throughout this discussion, could you just let us know first what the era or the period that you are really drawn to with your art history. So my area of expertise is the 18th century. So that's, that's what I know most, the deepest part of my knowledge and research has always has been the 18th century. Insane. I'm really fascinated and have a really solid understanding of the 20th century as well, because I've studied that in depth too. But also, of course, I'm interested in contemporary art, art of the art that is being made now and the very recent past to and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think researchers, like artists, they develop their interests and their ideas in lots of different directions at the moment and kind of looking more things like iconoclasm as well, which kind of stretches across all periods really iconoclasm for for those who don't know, is the destruction or accidental or intentional of artworks, or buildings and monuments and things like that, too. Yeah. So what drew you to that? It's the 1700s, isn't it? If it's the 18th century, so how it works? Yeah. No, that's cool. And to make things even more confusing, people have different definitions around time periods as well, that so for, for the 18th century, we used to say, oh, you know, that's 1700 to 1800. But the truth is, most people now call it like, referred to that period as the long 18th century. So it's sort of like, T straddles the late 70s, sort of like 1685 1690, through to about 1820. And people kind of debate those precise use, but it does kind of overlap, centuries, either side is 70. Is that because of the work? Was it was the era of that art in that time? Or is that just how historians talk about time periods? It's more around world events and things like that as well. It's not it's not a facade. I mean, the hard thing with art history, whatever period you're looking at, it's, we kind of like to think in nice sort of compartmentalized boxes with nice start and finish points. But the truth is, is that things just overlap. And, and there's not like one linear narrative or style or thing that's happening. There's lots of different things that are happening all at the same time. And we're only really starting to do a better job at recognizing that now. There's multiple histories, and multiple styles and things happening all at the same time. So really history. It's not like this one linear thing. It's like a big spiderweb of, you know, and it's really messy. And that's, that's the thing that makes it really interesting and dynamic, but we're not very good at thinking about things that way. We insist on putting things in nice, neat little categories and everything has to have a neat timeframe. Like it can't be like 1521 to 1673 because that just doesn't feel neat and contained for us. We have this need to contain things, which is crazy because that's not how time Her explore life. I must point out and acknowledge though that that's a very Western way of thinking, like, I'm sure like, I don't have the understanding to talk about this at length, but you know, other cultures and other strange other philosophies or other systems of doing things, think about things in very different ways. So what I'm referring to is, it's a Western perspective. It's not, it doesn't account for everybody, for sure. So within that time period, that long 18th century, what, what drew you to that era, I suppose, like how, why, why that period for you? This goes back to art school. My practice is very, very different to the 18th century, I my my own art practice is radically different. But the reason I was drawn to that is because when we went to when I was in art school, we had to do art history and theory. And we had this lecture in first year, who was very handsome and very charismatic. And everybody hung on every word, he said. And so we went to every lecture thinking, these lectures are amazing, and they're brilliant. And I was one of the fans. I thought he was wonderful. But there was one subject that he did. And it was kind of, I think it was called, like the history of Western art, or something like this. And he started with the caves of Lascaux. And he kind of worked his way through lecture, lecture, the lecture going through the history of Western art. And I remember this one day, he, I can't remember the name of the lecture, but he did the 18th century in one slide. Like I just like, I just have to pause there, because it still blows my mind. It totally blew me away, like, you'd gone. You know, one lecture might have been on surrealism and data, like an entire one hour lecture on surrealism and data, which is a movement in 19, the 1920s, like, you know, a response to the wars and things quite, it's quite a complex movement. But the 18th century, he kind of did this thing where he put up an image by a painter called fraggin, ah, he did a painting called the swing, a put this, this slide up, and I was fresh out of arts, I mean, fresh out of high school, too. So I was very young, I really didn't know very much. And he just put this slide up, and everyone erupted into laughter. And he said, this is like, the 18th century chocolate box fluff and nonsense. That's it. See later, let's jump into the 19th century. And I was just kind of like, I remember sitting there thinking, Why does everybody think this is funny? And why does he just wipe out an entire century with one slide, like, to me, I was like, I had no interest in painting that way, I had no interest in that style from my own work at all. But looking at that painting, I thought, wow, this is actually really, really skilled work. It's really complex. There's all these things happening in that picture. I don't understand what it is. But there's a lot more to this thing. I was just intrigued, absolutely intrigued. And then, you know, I also saw films like Amadeus, and, you know, all the all the period movies and stuff, and I just kind of developed this love for, you know, the 18th and 19th centuries. And then, when I went to study art history, I did four subjects and kept going and, you know, the my love for the 18th century grew. And I was kind of when I came to do my masters. I was like, do I do my Masters on Australian abstraction? Or do I do it on the 18th century, and then I went 18th century because I feel like I know and understand a lot about abstraction, but don't really understand the 18th century enough. So that's what took me that way. And I think it's also because images of that period of very complex nerve, very rich and iconography, which is, you know, the study of signs and symbols to kind of untangle what a pitcher is telling us. And I think that kind of tapped into my love for detective novels, and Agatha Christie and solving the clues. So I think that's what drew me in the most was just, you know, again, fun, lots of fun. And, you know, that period is fascinating, because, so, so much is happening in a very, very short timeframe. When you think about it, so much stuff for life is radically changing. And we've, we've inherited so much of that, you know, bad things as well as good things in within that period of time. There were lots of different movements, or was it the same? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll just very, very quickly tell you that the difference between the 20th century In the age of the long, 18th century, the long 18th century is kind of broken up into three major styles you could argue maybe for. But the 20th century is a very rapid succession of multiple movements. So there's lots of movements all throughout the century, and some of those overlap as well. So, you know, I'd have to sit down and write them down and can't off the top of my head, but lots and lots of movements happening very quickly. So some movements might kind of, you know, be defined by a naysayer decade, but and they resurface and influence other artists as well. So there's lots of overlap. And there's just lots of stuff happening. The 18th century is a century that has been neglected in research and scholarship until up until about the last 10 or 20 years, you know, people just didn't take it very seriously. So there's still a little bit of debate and a little bit like there's a lot of work to be done still. The start of the period, some people refer to as late Baroque, but it's really the Rococo, which is that the very highly decorative style, and then the, from the Rococo, we move into neoclassicism, which is, you know, the more classical austere kind of painting where it's all about heroic virtue, and those kinds of things leading up to the revolution. And then, around the time, like after the revolution, you have a movement called romanticism, which kind of spills over into the 19th century. And that's where you have artists like Turner doing those beautiful images of shipwrecks and storms and things like that. So we're going back to nature and the the power of nature and the sublime and those kinds of things. So it's really like, three year three movements in one century, and they do overlap in some of those artists. So for example, some of the, the artists working the Rococo style, kind of they also, you know, depending on when they were born, and who they were working for, they do kind of creep into the other styles as well. So some of the new classical artists move into romanticism, some of them don't, some of the Rococo artists move into neoclassicism, it really depends on where they are. And I guess that that notion of things have to have a start and finish, it just doesn't work like that things are all overlapping. And, yeah. And it's really formed and shaped by what's happening in the political and social cultural context as well, like, you know, so the easy thing there is like the the revolution, the French Revolution had an enormous impact on artists. So you do see a lot of things happening in the artwork that, you know, as what an art historian does is we look at works that are made in different time periods, and try and understand them in the context that they were made in as well. And that helps us understand what people were concerned by what people were thinking and how lives were lived at that period. Art historians tend to specialize. Like, for example, I specialize in the 18th century, but also look at contemporary art. Also look at modern art, sometimes I look a little bit at the 17th from the 19th. But I couldn't tell you very much about the Byzantine period, for example, there's just so much stuff out there. Art historians, we don't memorize dates and titles of paintings and things because that's connoisseurship. What we do is we look at objects and images as primary sources of material that can tell us it's kind of it's like detective work, you know, historians look at letters and documents and things and to tell the story of a person or what's happening in a period of time. And that's what we're doing with objects and images, where, you know, we're talking about the history of the work and the artist itself, but we're also recognizing it, doesn't it? Nothing is made in a vacuum, like, you know, artists are working in all different kinds of circumstances and political climates. And it really does shape what's being made. And not just visual art, but music and literature as well. Yeah. I mean, I've given very, very short, brief overviews of things. I've felt I have simplified things a lot. But I think, like, for example, when I when I say, you know, that 18th century has been a period that hasn't been as loved up until now, it's very different now. But when I started doing my Masters, people were still dismissing the Rococo, which is like the earliest period of the 18th century, there was some really groundbreaking research happening and the art historian is really fighting for the for that area of the discipline to be taken seriously, and they've done amazing work since but I think, you know, art history, it's like any other discipline, I guess, you know, it is susceptible to fashion you know, sometimes it It's hard to, you know, study an Australian colonial art, you know, I don't know, like it does go through fashion. But I think the 18th century really was quite overlooked. I'm not sure about the other disciplines, but definitely in art history, it was overlooked and not taken very seriously for a long time. That's his, like you said there was so much happening at that time, there was so much going on, and so much changing. And then it's like, oh, we're not actually going to write it. You know what I mean? Well, I can, again, I'll give you a very short answer for that, um, things like neoclassicism and romanticism, which happens later in the century were studied and taken more seriously. Like I, you know, I, like I was saying I did sort of condense what I was saying, and I simplified it a lot. They were taken seriously, much more seriously, for a long time than the first part of the century, which is that period that I refer to, or everyone refers to as the Rococo. And that is, because when we look at and this is, this is why that slide that I mentioned, was laughed at. Because it is so pretty, it is so feminine, it is so over the top decorative, it's ostentatious, it's, you know, it's just the height of frivolous for some people. And, you know, people kind of look at that, and the thing Oh, that's so ridiculously chocolate box, which is exactly what the lecturer said, like, there's, it's all feminine, decorative nonsense, there's no substance to it. And in that period of time, you know, women were powerful patrons, and they were really helping to shape fashion. And so, you know, sadly, because there were so many women involved, it was denigrated as fluff and nonsense, and it's totally not, like, once you start researching and looking at those images properly, and like looking at the culture in the social context of the period, it was enormously sophisticated and very, very progressive. Um, but, you know, historic later historians, you know, sort of later, later, from the 19th century, in particular, kind of looked back on that time and said, Oh, it's, it's all just feminine. You know, let's look at the stuff that's much more serious. And, you know, much more interesting, because, you know, it's about war. You know, the forces of nature and exploration and things, which is, of course, fascinating. But that's, that's really why people didn't take the early period of the 18th century. Seriously, for a long time. Yeah, because it was too feminine. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, it's just about flowers and puppies, you know, but there's a lot there's so much more. That's hilarious. Yeah, and it's a very simplistic view, because, of course, they're really looking at, you know, paintings and fashion and things. But, you know, the Rococo, you have to look at what was happening in, you know, maths and architecture, like there is that period of the Rococo period, and that style, that movement informed mathematics. I don't understand how that is, but it does. I'm not a mathematician, but I have read that it informed architecture and garden design and, you know, philosophy. It's incredibly rich period, the artists were talking to, you know, writers and philosophers and musicians, they were all generating and exchanging ideas and these really amazing communities. Yeah, like you said, before the community having people together, and yeah, bouncing ideas off of each other. So we briefly briefly touched on the involvement of women in that era, during that time were women painting, or were they more, like you said, the patrons of that era. So this is really this is really, really interesting. So both in that period of time, you know, the, I'm trying to think of how to make this a short story, not a very long one. So, in that period of time, women, I've got to be careful how I say this, because I'm not saying women were completely liberated from, you know, systems of patriarchal oppression because they certainly weren't. But women with money and power became very influential patrons. So one patron in particular, I'll give you one example Madame de Pompadour or was the king's favorite. She was a woman from a middle class background, she worked her way up. And she became a very, very influential patron of the arts. And she was a very good friend to artists and philosophers, musicians, scientists, she was an intellectual woman. And she held her own salons. And she, yeah, she patronized, you know, she, she commissioned artists to, and not just visual artists, but all kinds of artists to make work for her. And so that kind of patronage was really, really important to artists, you know, in sustaining their careers and their incomes, but also in shaping the visual culture of the time as well. And so yes, women with money and power and privilege, were definitely heavily involved in shaping the visual culture. For artists, female artists, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. There were some really, and I'll use the word exceptional. And some some art historians do use that term, too. There were exceptional art, women artists who had the support to train in, you know, studios that have their brothers or their fathers, for example. And at that time, women weren't allowed to go into the academies, except for a couple of women that we call the exceptional women. So for example, Angelica Kauffman, and Elizabeth Vichy LeBron, were two examples of female artists who worked in like they entered, they were permitted entry into the French Academy. And they became very successful artists. And they worked for the crown. And for example, LeBron and Kaufman, they worked for the Queen's at the time as well, for Marie Antoinette. And so they were very good friends of very powerful people. But that was quite rare. It wasn't, it wasn't as common. It was, it was much. No, I think, I think the thing about being a woman artists at that time was, you know, you really needed to have the support of men around you, like you needed to, you know, have, especially early in your life, because you sort of started training, as a child, or as a very young adult, you really needed to have access to a studio. And that was really out of the reach for females, unless you had a brother or a father, you might have been helping them make their work in the studio and have access to materials, someone might look at what you were doing, and say that's really, that's really great, we're going to try and get you some teaching, they might go and work with another artist and you know, gain some more skills. But the process is much more difficult for a female to become a professional academic painter. There were also other artists who, and this is where it gets. Again, I don't I don't want to go on and on too much, because it's not an art history lesson. But there were other artists who worked in pastels, for example, they didn't do the traditional academic painting, they use pastels to make beautiful images of flowers and portraits and things. And some of those women were working very independent of the academy. And that's how they sort of sustained their practice. But they weren't considered professional in the same way that the members of the academy and the painters to the Crown were. So you had different groups, I guess the thing was, gaining entry into the academy was that you had to, you had to sort of like, do a whole heap of training and learning first, but then to enter into the academy, you had to paint what they what we call an academy reception piece. So it was always like it had to be a grand painting. With a mythological or historical subject matter. It couldn't be a portrait or a landscape. It had to be like a religious work or something like that. And then that was judged and if that was good enough, then they could enter into the academy. But when I shouldn't say too, when I say exceptional for the women, it wasn't just that they were exceptionally talented or exceptionally good. What I mean by that is that women like Angelica Kauffman, for example, she she was very successful. She was an independent professional artist. She was considered exceptional, not just because of her talent, but the fact that she was a woman. You know, it's like, women aren't really supposed to be good at these things. Women are, you know, the too imaginative. They're too irrational and emotional to be doing work. In the same capacity as men, right? Well, because because she's a woman, she's exceptional. And it's a heartbreaking thing to say like, and I still I find that really difficult because you know, in that period women, like Pompadour, for example, she was the king's favorite she was a powerful patron she was an intellectual she, she was also a printmaker, she was doing all these amazing things. She was, she was, of course, very, very powerful and privileged because of the position she was in. But she was also someone who came from a middle class background and worked her way up. But these, these women were standout figures. And we we call them exceptional, because that's not that's not the normal life of a woman in that period like that they are elite women. And even even when you do have privilege behind you, you're still you still have to go the extra mile to, you know, advance yourself and to prove your capacity more than your male counterparts. Do, you know, you have to work harder to get there and to keep that position. As you it's really, because men and women were considered to be completely opposite, like men were the rational creatures capable of higher thinking and academic pursuit and women were nurturers and mothers and imaginative creatures prone to hysteria, things like that. Let's see exactly how they spoke about them. You know, women, women had the creative impulse, but they're also too imaginative and emotional to sort of harness those qualities into our interior rational way to make something more, more worthy of the academy, for example, I don't really know how to explain it. It's, yeah, they couldn't harness all of that stuff that creative people have, in a way that was balanced and reasoned enough to achieve, you know, a great work of art. Yes, it's like the eyes of men. Yeah, in the eyes of men. And so that's an even in art criticism, like, we do have documents where art critics are saying, oh, you know, this particular artists would be much better, you know, doing their paper flower cutouts, because they were looking at crafting. And this is where our denigration of craft comes from, too. That's associated with the feminine stuff. So they're kind of I don't know, you're not really good enough to be a professional painter, just go into your crafty stuff instead, you know, is that hierarchy? It's very gendered? Yeah. I think that we are getting better at that. But I think that kind of does still persist, sometimes. So these women that you talk about that went to the academy, where they mothers as well. This is where I'm not, I don't know a lot about their biography. I know that LeBron had one daughter, and I think her name was Xian. And she actually appears in lots of her portraits. I don't know their story very well, I think. I think this little girl was in lots of portraits. And so she would have been very close to her mother at that time. But for some reason, I think, later in life, their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm not really sure why. But you know, she was her mother was painting her, so she was subject matter. And there are, of course, other artists, especially in the 20th century, who have used and postmodern period as well, who have used their children as part of their artworks. Yeah. Is that something I'm really interested in? Is that that this challenge between their work and their role as a mother, is that something that women artists have faced in the past? I mean, I'm sure that it can you say you can you say it in the work? Or does it come out in the work or is it? Is it something that you've you can research? That makes sense? There's the Oh, wow. It's like, you know, there's so many different ways of being an artist, and there's so many different ways of being a woman in so many different ways of being a mother. So I think, like, for example, Barbara Hepworth, I'm just pulling out examples as I think of them. Barbara Hepworth was a sculptor and her work is quite abstract, but I know that she, she really considered being a mother integral to her practice. I don't know a lot about her work, but I know that she did consider her children to be as, like very influential on her like she loved being a mother and she thought that was really important to her practice, but also know that there are lots of artists like feminist artists who would have loved to have children but didn't have children because they knew having children would have a big, like a detrimental impact. on their career, so there are artists who have consciously made the choice not to have children. Louise Bush was another artist and nothing she had five children. She, again thrived on being a mother, I'm not sure how that shaped her practice for her. But there's another artists birth Maura, so an impressionist artist, and her daughter is, again, provide subject matter for her. We have lots of images where you see her daughter making an appearance. And I think she, I think her daughter was a model for other artists as well. So in, in lots of ways children have been subject matter for artists. In other ways, they've just, you know, I suppose, been around and provided their mums with energy. And, you know, I don't Yes, it's fair, it's very different for all artists, I think. I have friends who are mothers and artists now and I know, a couple of them motherhood is a very, like, it's a central theme in their practice. And their work is very specifically about motherhood and about their children. So I think I kind of get the sense that it's easier to make that kind of artwork now than it has been, like in the early modern period, for example. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say, too, is just going back to the early modern period, there's lots of artists. This is another thing that's really sad. There's lots of other artists who are very, very good painters, but a lot of their work has been lost or destroyed. So a lot of their work we just don't even know, we don't have record of and there are other artists working in the Baroque and Renaissance periods, for example, where their workers that we were starting to learn now their work has been mis attributed to male artists. Ah, so there's a lot of stuff we just don't know yet. Hopefully, we do uncover more. But, you know, there are other artists who are very prolific, and then they have children, and, you know, their career finishes, or slows down, or some artists have been fortunate enough to have husbands who were very, very supportive and have nurtured their careers, other artists. I can't remember her name. Now. I read this in passing the other day. She was a composer. She was forbidden to practice by her husband when she had children. So she just stopped. And I think I'm trying to think of her name. It's just escaped me, which is really terrible. She was associated with the Bauhaus artist. So I think what happened with her is she stopped practicing. But it took over a period of years, it took her an enormous toll on her health and well being. And for some reason, I think her husband was convinced, actually, no, you need to let her do her work again. And so she did do some work before she died. But she lost a lot of time. Yeah. Well, that's what her name was. I have, I'll have to go back through the book that I was reading the other day and find her name for you if you're interested. Because she's Yeah, composer. I think her husband, I'm not sure if he was an artist, but he was definitely associated with the Bauhaus school, which is designers and artists in Germany. Yeah, I don't. It's just something that I came across the other day. I don't know very much about that about her. But that just kind of really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. terribly sad. So I think there's a lot more we could we could say, but it hasn't been written and recorded or research yet or hasn't been found yet or it's been raised. Yeah. In terms of your identity, as a mother, I asked my guests this question about, I do the air quotes, is it important to you to be more than just a mom and I say just a mom, because I know that's not a correct statement? Is it important for you to keep that identity and not become mum? Just mum? Absolutely. Um, for me, it's vital. And I think, again, as I was saying earlier, I think that's a really big part of my mental health. You know, being an artist, I guess is at the core of my identity. And I think it always has been, but also in terms of my children looking at me, I think, you know, it's important for both of them, not just my daughter, but for my son to to see that, you know, women, even in their roles as mothers and nurtures they're multifaceted multi dimensional beings and, you know, we have our own interest, not just career or art was have our own likes and dislikes and responses to things, we have our own feelings around stuff. You know, things impact us as much as they impact someone else would we hold everything together, but we need to be looked after as well. And sometimes we need to look after ourselves. And you know, that's critical. It's absolutely critical. And, you know, one day, we're not going to be doing the, the, the intense hands on mothering where our children are so dependent on us, they're going to go and live their own lives. And, you know, they need to, they need to acknowledge that we have our own lives going on as well. And we need to acknowledge that we need to take that we need to hold on to that. Because otherwise, you know, there's so much I think there's so much potential loss, if you don't, hold on, hold on to something for yourself. And I can't imagine what that would be like. Yeah, and I also feel like, as a, as a mother, myself, I never wanted to be that authoritarian, just just mum kind of person, I want it to be a friend, I want it to be someone that they would, you know, feel comfortable coming to want to have around later on in life. And they're doing their own thing, too. You know, I don't want to just be the mum who does everything for everybody. I want to be the person who is counted on as a friend as well. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's motherhood Being a mother is a multi dimensional thing. It's not just you do the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning, taking the kids to school, changing the nappies. It's much more than that. Like, there's, there's a whole unique, amazing individual underneath all of that. And that person still needs to live. Like, you know, and they need to, they need to thrive like everybody else does. Yeah, it's important, obviously, important to you, for your children to say that in you to recognize Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, they're not getting the best of me. And I know, of course, there are days, they're not getting the best of me because I'm tired and worn out. And I haven't given myself enough time or something. But that's my responsibility. Right? Like, you know, I can't, I was saying to my cousin who's a single father the other day, he's really struggling, being a single dad in lockdown sometimes. And I said to him, like, if you don't, if you don't put self care at the top of your list, you can not be the best dad for your child. Long term. You can't sustain it like, you do have to look after yourself. Yeah, whatever. And that looks different for everybody. Yeah, no, but let's see. Yeah, absolutely. I really value the stay at home mum, as well, as much as I do the working mom, you know, I think we've got to be careful of, not sort of, I worry sometimes that we diminish the role that mums have if they choose to opt out of a career because they want to stay at home. I think that's a really powerful, meaningful, valuable thing to do. I think that's incredible. I know that I'm not capable of that. But also know that mums who are doing that, even if they're not working in a job that's paid and acknowledged, it's more important for them to maintain a sense of their identity, because, you know, otherwise, there's a danger of losing themselves in that. And then when their kids leave, like I was saying, what's left, you know, they need to have something that's just for them for themselves. Do you know what being a mum is? bloody difficult. It's probably one of the hardest jobs in the whole world. It is the hardest job in the whole world. For lots of different reasons. I think like it's, it's incredibly tough. And I think yeah, like I was saying, I think doing the stay at home mom thing is the toughest gig of all and I know that I'm not capable of that. I have an immense admiration for people who are doing that. They deserve everything, they deserve all the credit and they deserve that timeout and they deserve being looked after and acknowledged and honored and supported and I worry that they don't get that enough. I worry that even as women we don't give them that enough so I guess then that sort of leads me into the the concept of mum guilt. I think after you know, after the podcast that you're doing, I think you're becoming the expert on this. So I would love to know what you think on that. I think you know what I think I know that I've definitely suffered mother guilt for a different reason. There's a couple of strands of thinking here that I've got. So I think the whole thing with mum do I think, is reflective of a deeply patriarchal society that we live in. And what I'm going to say is I don't think that it's, and I'm trying to be careful about how I word this. I don't think it's necessarily men who are telling us to feel guilty. I feel like we're doing that to each other. I feel like I'll give you an example of this. When I, when I had my children, I was super, super lucky. I was able to breastfeed really easily, like I had absolutely no problem, I loved it. And it was, it was just like, falling away, oh, when my cousin had a child, not long after, and she found it incredibly difficult to breastfeed. She tried everything she could think of. And she was in agony. And I don't really know the particulars, but I know she really, she gave it a good crack. And she ended up having her her baby bottle fed and this nose. So this is like 18 years ago, too. It's not like yesterday. So I need to say things are changing. But, you know, the pressure and the judgment and the criticism that she got for that choice came from other women. And she really struggled with that guilt for a long time of like, I can't feed my child, the way everyone's telling me I should be. I'm not a good mom. And I'm like that, that is, to me, one of the most damaging things that we can do, is judging each other and not supporting each other. I think living in a patriarchal society means that if you're socialized as a heteronormative, woman, or girl, you're also taught that we're in competition with each other in lots of different ways. And I think that comes out in motherhood too. Like, if your child isn't sleeping all the way through at six weeks, you're doing something wrong. If you take a day home by yourself, and you're not working, you're doing something wrong. If you can't breastfeed, you're doing something wrong. If you don't give birth, naturally, you're doing something wrong. So I think I really feel like certainly for me, that's where a lot of guilt initially came from. I don't really do that anymore. Like, sometimes I kind of struggle with putting myself first like I bang on about that all the time. But I'm not always very good at doing that. But you know, my guilt, or my shame, I shouldn't say shame came from experiencing postnatal depression with my son. You know, I felt such shame for that. Because I really, at that time, I don't believe it anymore. But at that time, I really felt like I wasn't a good mom. And you know, and I think the other thing is, it's not always what we say to women is what we don't say to women, you know, we at that time, I know it's different. Now, I know it's changing. But at that time, people weren't really talking about postnatal depression, and I was terrified. I thought, you know, what, if I tell my doctor that something's not right, I think they might say that I don't deserve to have my child. Like, you know, I was honestly I was, I was petrified. And then, when things kind of settled down for me, and I was on medication, I just had that overwhelming shame. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing I'm not doing a good enough job. Like, I'm not as amazing as that lady over there with her five kids is, you know, like, was so in love with this little baby, but I couldn't get it right. And something was wrong, and I couldn't understand it. So I think, yeah, I think that's the closest that I've really had to that full on mom guilt. And I just kind of feel like, we need to do more as women to encourage and support each other. But talk about and this is why I think your podcast is so amazing. We need to share all the crap stuff because there's so much crap stuff. And I'm sorry, being a mom is amazing. And it's an honor, it's a privilege, but there is so much crap in it. There's so much stuff that there's so much stuff that hurts there's so much stuff that's ugly and demoralizing and upsetting. And so many so many things that other people just don't understand. But you know, we need to at least acknowledge it and we need to, we need to tell our own children. You know what? Childbirth isn't easy. And it's okay, if you feel like shit after you've had your child like it's okay. Like all of these things are okay. And it's normal and a million other people are doing it too. Because it's so and you know, like I I learned so much from that experience, and I think it's, it's certainly taught me things so that hopefully I can be a much more empathetic ache mother friend, whoever I need to be for someone else, you might go through that. But, you know, like, there's so much unnecessary suffering and all that. It's, I don't know, I just kind of remember how confusing it all was too, because I desperately wanted my son like, he was a baby I literally prayed for, like, you know, I wasn't interested in becoming a mother for the longest time. And all of a sudden, I desperately wanted and wanted to have this baby. And he didn't come for a while. And then when he did come, and then I had him and I was looking at his eyes, I was absolutely honestly, had never felt such love. But at the same time, I was petrified out of my mind. And I was really sad and anxious. I felt like oh, my God, I've, I'm going to break this thing, I'm going to do something wrong. And then the more I plummeted into that, anxiety and depression, I thought, if I say anything to anybody, they're gonna take my baby. Like, though, in the very, very early days before I told my doctor, I thought someone's going to take him away from me. And I think that's why I didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't want to be judged. I did talk to my parents about it. I talked to, you know, my son's grand grandmother about it as well, very early on. And they're the ones who actually kind of steered me over to the doctor to get some medication. Thank goodness, because I wasn't in a very good way. So and, you know, that, yeah, it takes a really long time to get your head around that and a really long time to, to say those words. But there's so important. And I think this is another reason why I think your podcast is so immensely valuable, because I think if someone had just said to me, 18 years ago, it will be okay. And you were going to do great. And you're going to do all these other things, too. I think they would have made a big difference. And you're not a bad mom, and you're an amazing Mum, you just need a little bit of support like everyone does. So yeah, thank goodness, I think I think things are changing. I think we are starting to talk about mental mental health in the mainstream. Much more than we did, but yeah, geez. First time mother. That's crippling. It's really crippling. But again, I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a real depth of knowledge and wisdom that comes from that experience two things. I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter at all. I had the postnatal depression with my son. And that was a very traumatic birth. And I think, yeah, maybe it was a PTSD thing. The I think the reason maybe I didn't have postnatal depression with my daughter is because I said, I'm not doing that. Again, I'm having this as Aryan thanks. Because, you know, I sustained some injuries and things as well. And like that was that was quite an ordeal for me. And I think because I made that decision early that might have had a bit of an impact. But I remember with my son too, like, there were nights, but I just didn't sleep. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, that was a big thing. I just did not sleep and not not because he was a bad sleeper, but I literally couldn't sleep. And I remember one of the nurses who came to the house to check in on me and stuff. She said to me, oh, when you can't sleep, why don't you just use that time to do your painting? And I was just like, I can't because I literally was paralyzed. I felt sometimes like I was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a really hard space to be in and being creative. I couldn't read a book. Like I honestly couldn't read a book. So I think to create work when you're in that space is I think it's probably impossible. It's like you barely functioning. It's like having a shower was just like, wow, this big achievement. Yep, absolutely. When you say it now, it seems like so unreal. But well, the energy that that takes is incredible. Like, yeah, it's something that you just can't be understated how, how debilitating that is and how we really need to support people who are in that I was gonna say I've always been very opinionated. And having that experience on these kinds of issues has made me even more opinionated and more vocal. And, you know, sometimes I get quite angry. And I think because it's like, yeah, I know what that's like. But you know, that to go back to that thing about the breastfeeding thing? Yeah, I had an awesome experience, I had an awesome pregnancy. But when I hear about someone who's not having that same experience, and who's really struggling and are being judged and criticized for become equally passionate about that, because I'm like, This is not okay. Like, you know, we need to be supportive of each other, especially women, we need to be supportive of each other, whatever our experiences and choices are, whether that's around motherhood, birth career, or not, whatever that looks like, whatever our choices are, we really need to, you know, support that. I think that's the most powerful thing we can do. That's interesting, by the way, that judgment? Yeah, it's interesting. Why do we judge each other like that? Like, is it because Is it is it going back to Days of having to compete for the affections of men or something? So you put other women down? So it makes you look better? Like, is it? Why do we do? I'm not, I'm not really I don't really know. But I have, I have read that in a patriarchal culture, like a Western patriarchal culture, women are socialized to be in competition with each other. And we are kind of socialized to think that there's limitations on resources and, you know, limitations on access to men and all of these kinds of crazy things. Like if you want to, you know, I mean, it goes back into history to like, you look way back into history, like it was really important to be engaged by a particular time in your life. And if you weren't engaged and married, it was a serious problem, you know, and so people, like, even if you watch Jane Austen Oh, yeah, there's always threads, you know, women are in competition with each other, because they want to get the best pick of the of the man to have them, you know, to validate who they are, as women and people in society, it's crazy. I think we've been doing that for a very long time. And not just not just around men, I think, you know, just as we frame ourselves as women in relation to each other and our positions in society, we might not think that consciously, but I think that's embedded in our collective consciousness or something somewhere, it's like, you know, a baby cries. And we have that no one says, When your baby cries, you have to do the thing you are compelled, like, your, your urge is to go out and check your baby, pick it, pick the baby up and do particular things. Because that's what you're built to do. And I think there are, I mean, we're animals, I think these things are so deeply embedded in our primal brain and our collective consciousness and all those things that I'm not familiar, like, I don't have enough knowledge on that. But I think that's got a big part to do with it. But I think we, you know, we're acknowledging it and talking about it. So hopefully, that's a really big step in starting to dismantle some of that stuff. In all of the things that I've said, I should also, you know, definitely point out that in all the the competitiveness and things that we've been talking about, there are some amazing communities that you find that you do find for yourself, where you do get that support, and that friendship, which is absolute gold. And, you know, for me, I've found that with two, two women when my son went to kindy. So it took me took me a long time to find that, but, you know, I've maintained those friendships for the last 14 years now, and I always will, you know, it's incredible. What we've, you know, the friendship that we've given to each other this whole time, it's unconditional, you know, like, it's it. Yeah, it's really unconditional. So there is there is all of that richness and beauty there, too. But, yeah, I really like it, if that became the norm, like if that was the biggest story, and the other things that we that we've been discussing were, you know, rare incidents. We can talk about, you know, what in history that used to happen, and yeah, exactly. The you know, what you're saying now to about the competitiveness thing, I actually get such a thrill. I'm always so excited when I see anybody regardless of gender, or whether or not there a mum or dad. I get such a kick out of seeing people take their own initiative and do their own stuff and make their own things happen. And so, yeah, I'd like to tell you that You know that you're taking your own initiative to do this podcast. When I, when I first found out about it, I was so excited about it because I thought, wow, this is, this is something that you're doing. It's your own project because you care about it. And it's meaningful, and it's, you know, sustaining you, it's wonderful, but you're also giving such a gift to so many people. So well done. That is a fair, that's a very, very long way away from being competitive. That's, that's incredibly generous. And it's really wonderful to see. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Okay, it's exciting. It's wonderful. And and you know, what, it's actually a really brave thing to do to, to do a podcast and to share and, you know, to talk to people about all this kind of stuff. I'm at the moment, I'm taking some time out to experiment and explore in my practice, because this year already I've had working for exhibitions. And I've been teaching and studying as well. So I'm sort of on a little bit of a, like, I've got little bits of paid work happening. But in terms of exhibitions and stuff for the rest of the year, I don't have anything on the go. At the moment, I'm just taking this time to play with ideas and materials in my studio, and have a bit of a break to probably for exhibition. Yeah, oh my gosh, though, they were amazing. But because of COVID, it meant that some exhibitions were pushed forward. And all it was all just in the timing. So, you know, three exhibitions, were pretty much back to back. And to two exhibitions that I had opened in the one week, that was pretty intense. It was pretty intense. And so it was kind of like, Yes, I need time to recover. I also need time to just play. Like, I just need to play with my materials. And I've already I've already got ideas for my next series of work, but I just want to explore the potential of different techniques and materials at the moment. Um, to kick that off, we then just take a bit of a breather you know, Oh, tell you something really funny. I'll never forget this. When I was doing my PhD, I had to, I was doing full time study. And then I had to go down to part time and stuff. So my PhD took a little bit longer than I thought it would. And I remember my son said to me, one day, see that little girl walking around over there. And that was my daughter. He said, that's your PhD. Because I, when I was doing my PhD, six months in, I fell pregnant, I didn't realize that this was going to happen, fell pregnant, and I had my daughter and I'm still doing my PhD when she was like, three. You know, I kind of submitted not that long after but he was like, there's your PhD running around over there, mom, and I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was and it was quite startling, because you already knew like I was when he said that I was sort of like in the process of winding it all up. And you know, I was on the homestretch. But he was like, there she is. A PhD. That is gone. Yeah, it's like, making visible the the length that it has taken me to do this thing. Yeah. And all the effort that you've put into here, rather than the PhD. It's just yeah. That is hilarious. Thank you very much, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat and all the best with everything you've got coming up. Thank you so much, Alison, and congratulations on a fantastic podcast and wish you all the best for the future in this fantastic project that you have. It's been really fun talking to you today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Allison.

Alicia Lis Verso Australian singer, songwriter and musician S1 Ep01 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome to my new podcast. I am thrilled to have you here! My first guest is Alicia Lis is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter & guitarist, high school teacher, and a mum of 2 boys. We chat about how she manages the different 'compartments' in her life, how important support is from others and the importance of modelling hard work to her children. Alicia Soundcloud / Youtube / Instagram Podcast instagram / website Alicia's music used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. got a hold of me and my guest today is Alicia verso who goes by the stage name Alyssa Liz. She is a Melbourne based singer, songwriter, and guitarist. Welcome to the podcast, Alicia. Thank you so much, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here part of your podcast and your very first one too. Yeah, so exciting. This is this is great. Thank you for being here. So for those who may not be familiar with you Angel music, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, what can I say I'm mature age. And I'm just like me and I'm 40 I'm actually few days shy of 41. And I'm just after a really long break getting back into the music industry. I started studying when I was you know, sort of straight out of high school, studied music and had you know, high hopes and ambitions to to write music record it which I did start doing and gigging and I started doing that, you know, started doing both gigging with a, you know corporate duo slash trio. And also also with my original music with a with another artists that I met at, at TAFE we would do you know, our own stuff together. And she played bass I play guitar. And yes, I took a took a long break. And so really, my my music is to start off with was very contemporary, kind of, you know, sort of you think back in the early sort of 2000s It was very much like indie type bands where, you know, a lot of the music and listening to were musicians that play their own instruments that wasn't there was sort of starting to merge using electronic looping but not as much waves I love Joel are crowded house, Pete Murray, just trying to think I loved you too, back then. Yeah, just a lot of a lot of those types of that genre. And then when I started studying, it was very much a fusion of jazz and blues with a little bit of contemporary element to it. But that overdoing like going to VCA or you know, studying classical, yeah, that is, you know, you know, how can you not, you know, two years of studying that got quite influenced with jazz and blues and so there was like, one of my songs that were quite heavily influenced the shape up with that genre. And, and so, yes, I've kind of got a little bit of that influence now. But a lot of the stuff that I've written was 15 years ago, and so now I'm, you know, looking now forward to start writing some new material. So that's kind of being a bit of a challenge to find the time. So you and I first met on Instagram a few months ago, through and online Stage Door singing competition, which you won. Congratulation mask. Fantastic. And then you also had some success recently with your song shape up which won the June competition on radio Easterns Talent Search. Congratulations on that too. You've won a bit of a roll at the moment. No, absolutely. And three's a charm. I'm wondering what number three is going to be? To buy a lotto ticket maybe. So tell us a little bit about your family, then you kids and that kind of thing? Yeah, well, I've got two boys. I was actually just talking to Harvey this morning. I had I had a vivid dream, and I never have them. And I was pregnant. In my dream. So I was like, no, no. Unless, unless, you know can be I can audits a girl. But still, I'm done and dusted. So two boys, Max is going to be 11 in a bit over a week. And I've got Jackson, there's a bit of an age gap between the two who's five, almost five and a half. And so both at school, which is great. And so I've got hubby as well, who's really super supportive of my, my aspirations on on, you know, taking a leap into back into the music industry. For myself. And yeah, we've been together for over 2020 years now, I think 2322 23 years, something like that. That's great. You see music a little not at all. So I'm a bit of a lone wolf in the family. None of my boys have been really super interested in music ALA. Yeah. You never know. So that that style of competition the stage or being all online, did you find that that really suited you with the kids being at home? Or are you finding a bit easy to get out? More these days? Look, I really, I enjoyed it being at home. And like, with like me saying my husband's very supportive. He, he really, if I need to, like even just for this afternoon, if I really need them out of my hair, you'll either you know, take them out like he has today or if you know, obviously when we're in COVID We couldn't you know, he just made sure he just keep him sort of occupied. Yeah, look either ways. Fine. Like I know, I did have a gig in May. And so that was, you know, that was fine too. He's happy to stay home and look after them. He's really good. But yeah. As long as I just said right, this is what I communicate with him and say this is what's happening. This is my cut off. This is what I need to do. This is sort of roughly how much time we just kind of you no work he just helped with working around that with me. That's so good. That's so important, yeah. So obviously, you've you've talked a little bit about your life before you had children. Your music was a really big part of your life. It was you've studied your work as a music teacher delve into a little bit more about was it always your dream to do music? Sort of how many how many hours we you'd be out of the house doing your gigs? Was it it? Was it like almost a full time sort of commitment to music? Or kids? Yeah, definitely. I mean, with the study, being immersed in it. I even my part time job was at JB Hi Fi so it was a big? Yeah, I would have to say even with my spare time on weekends, I would spend that year rehearsing either for the, for my, you know, the corporate duo, or even with my friend as well. So or, you know, or weekday, because when I had time during the week when I was at uni, so yeah, it was pretty much like night and day it was yeah, all about all about music beforehand. I didn't really take music sort of seriously up until very late high school. So until I was in VCE. And it was like yeah, this is what I want to do halfway through year 11. Though I did pick up my guitar and start learning from the age of 15. But then voice came later. Yeah. Yeah. But before that I wanted to become an actress. Yeah, right. Either and all that. And I got really crappy crappy marks. And I was just absolutely shattered. I'm certain that that I can't. I'm not made for this, obviously. So enter music now that was yeah, that became my passion. Yeah, yeah. So when you were pregnant with your first child, did you sort of find performing wise was a bit more challenging obviously, as your body was changing. I know I had a lot of issues with breathing, I struggled with struggle to work out how to breathe properly, my diaphragm while I had a baby sitting on sort of find that sort of stuff, or how do you go with it, I stopped Well, before I got pregnant, because once I started teaching full time, I just thought I'll do teaching. And that can kind of be sort of, you know, something that I do while I, I, you know, try and do my music on the side. But once I started full time, forget it. Like it just really took over my life. And so about a year and a half after teaching was when I felt pregnant. And I remember when my firstborn was six months old, I was taking in that. And the guy, this guy, Chris, that we used to do the duo with him, he called me and I was in the middle of having my nap while my son was having it. And I was just completely bombed out. And he's like, Oh, hey, guy wanted to see what I was up to. And I'm just like, Oh, I've just I've had it. I'm just like, Oh, I'm so tired. I just, you know, it was just like, there was just no thought in my mind at any time soon to get back into any sort of like singing or, you know, in music, you know? Just wasn't on the radar. Not on the radar. No, hit me like a ton of bricks having the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a lot of support around you at that time? Do you have your family in in Melbourne with you or I had my mum is as well as my hobby. My mum is so super supportive, like even now. I see her every week. And even now that I'm full time work, and she's retired, she'll come, you know, one day a week and to kind of give me a hand around the house, let's say, yeah, really, really good. And yeah, she's also supportive of what I'm doing as well. So yeah, even with that support, I was just like, yeah, just exhausted. But yeah, no, it wasn't till a couple of years later that I Yeah, there was there was reasons why. I wasn't I wasn't 100% Well, I wasn't sure what was going on. Because I know I'd go to mothers groups, and, you know, the mums, you know, we all say we're tired and all that sort of stuff. But the mum still had like energy to go out for coffees and things and I just be like, Nah, I just don't have that energy. And I thought there's something a bit not right, you know, like, why am I just so exhausted at all I can be bothered to do is just take care of my kid and just not have that energy to do anything else. You know, muster the energy to go to, to mother's grief, and even that was like, a chore for me too. And so I remember going to the doctor's because I'd get quite sick quite often, and it would take a really long time to shake off at cold. He said, we'll do a bit of a test for you. Like, you know, like, I'll ask you some questions and I didn't know what he was wearing. He's getting at but he was asking me some questions and and he kind of gave me a little number out of a number. I don't know if it was at a 10 or whatever. And he said, oh look, you kind of like borderline you've got anxiety and a bit of postnatal depression, but it's not. It's not extreme, but it's you know, it's there. And sometimes that can have an impact, you know, on your well being and also your, your immune system and so, okay, so I got like, one of those those six packs, we get like the six free canceling sessions. Yeah, yep. Yeah. So I went to those and, and look, it was good. It was good to talk to someone and but I was still very tired. And then with more tests, and I don't know, there was something I read in a book. And it was cat it was about Candida and Candida albicans which is when you have Have an overgrowth of the bad bacteria in the stomach versus your good bacteria? Yeah, that can just throw everything out of whack your immune system and you're constantly tired, because I remember I would find it really difficult to, you know, to sleep as well. And it was kind of linked all the way back to also when I realized now when I had Max, my first that I was, I had an intravenous antibiotic when just before I had him and I think that that massive amount of antibiotics that was pumped into me, just completely ruined my gut bacteria. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just like in this, like, like, my head was in the clouds for like two years until I finally realized what it was because I saw so many doctors that when I went to a nap, I went to a naturopath, this time that specialized in it. Like, right, yep. did another test to confirm it. I think it was a saliva test. And that confirmed that I had really high levels of the Candida and he's like, right got me on a Candida diet, which was cutting out all sugar or dairy or weight. It was nuts. It was first month, I was even more exhausted. And I was like, what's going on? I should be feeling better. And I said know what it is. It's all the Candida that's dying off. And it's actually pouring out all the toxins in your body. It's releasing it, but your body's not obviously not getting rid of it fast enough. So yeah, this is one thing after the other. But my God probably took me about a good year. I've kind of feel like I was normal again. Yeah, right. Yeah. So there was just like, I was just in survival mode. Yes, literally living living day to day just was to do Yeah, it was a really crap. And it was like, I was back at work just two days a week because that's all I could do. And even the days I was at work, I was just in a in like, like a daydream. I don't know, I don't even know I just functioned it's and I think because of that. I've put a lot of pressure on my adrenal glands as well. So everything was just all over the place. So I think that's why I had such a big gap because my after getting over that I just My aim was if I was going to have another child, I'm going to be the healthiest that I can be so that when I do have another child, I'm not going to have to go through all that again. So after you had Jackson then how was your health then? Ah, heaps heaps better. Um, I had lost because I put on 20 kilos my first so I've lost all of that. I'd actually stayed off the wheat and the dairy and the sugar because I found when I went back on it again, I got the Candida but I knew the signs and then I was like, right, go back onto the Candida diet again. So now I don't leading up to the pregnancy and even now I don't have wheat. I don't very it's I cut back. Like I don't have sugar. It's very rare. And dairy I still have a bit of that on my health was so so good. energy levels were a lot better. Weight was a lot was better. I'd still do put weight on and just the way my body is when I'm pregnant. And I had a natural birth. I didn't have any I was like no, no, no, they wanted to pump antibiotics into me again or like not not having it. Especially after what I went through last time so yeah, it was heaps heaps better. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. Stuck between your two boys after you did start to feel better after that sort of year afterwards. Did you? Did you look back into your music? I did, actually. But it took a complete sideward turn in that when Max was about three. So when I started feeling better, I was taking him to mini maestro's. I don't know if you've you've probably have many monasteries in South Australia In Australia wide. Yeah, I have heard of it. Yeah. So it's like a little preschool music program. and fill up for toddlers. And I was typing into that. And then I was taking him to another, another mothers group that was just run by us. And so all the activities were based on, you know, whatever we sort of come up with. And so I was like, Well, how about you know, like, you know, some some days, I'd bring in my guitar, and we can sing some songs. And then I started going, Well, why don't we make something Arty, something crafty. And then we can use that in the songs and get them moving. And then with that, I kind of come up with this concept called Creative tots, Australia, which is infusing new music, movement, and crafts, and started developing lessons, creating songs on GarageBand. So, you know, using my music background, as well as my educational background, as well. And, you know, made a logo, so had a professional logo made, I had a website made, I've still got the Facebook page up, which is one of the links in my Instagram, on my Instagram, LinkedIn, bio. And, yeah, I've bought instruments and asked and, like, everything that I needed, or my materials and, and stuff to promote myself. And I started going to, to like other play groups and saying, hey, you know, I've got this, this new this program, would you like me to come in and, you know, give it a trial. And, you know, give me some feedback on what you think, went to the local library and did the same thing. And I actually repainted carpet in my garage to make it into a space and I kind of went to audit all the foundational stuff. And I fell pregnant with Jackson. So yeah, I've got puppets on this one hand puppets as well. So like, yeah, I've got all everything's in the garage. Yeah. Everything's still there. But that's something another project that I'm gonna get to. It's sort of like it's waiting. They're just ready for you to pick it up when you're ready. Yeah, when I'm ready, not ready yet. There's a few things I want to do first, before I go back to it, that thing that I want, again, I did professional development as well. So there's another program by they're very well known in Melbourne. They do educational stuff for schools, books and music for pre pre schools and primary schools. I don't know if you'd call it a hood. Susie, and Phil Davis split up. Music is their program. So yeah, so I did a couple of professional development courses with them. So I put a lot into it in that sort of, yeah, three to two to three years. But before Yeah, I fell pregnant with Jackson. Like I was even about to do another course with them. When I was probably about booked in seven months, and got to seven months, it was in January, which is really warm up and I was like, Nah, I can't do it too much. So yeah, so yeah, definitely back in the music, but more in a different different way. Yeah. Fine doing that. That you you met your own need, you know, being involved in music. Did you sort of feel like you might have been helping the mums to like, did you see it as but you were also giving something back? To your community, I suppose. And helping mums? Yeah, yeah, I did. Actually, I actually. What else did I do? I was also ending the classes with meditation because I was in into the meditation at the time to incorporated that. And yeah, one of the mums in did mention that. She's like, I've never seen my child so relaxed, like that. Good way to kind of, you know, because you've raised them up was a good way to kind of settle them down and bring them down the end of the lesson. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you're giving some of these kids might not have had any sort of exposure to music and instruments and that kind of stuff before so yes, that's fantastic, too. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We talked a bit about support early you've got your husband and your mom within your own sort of work circle at the moment or your your colleagues your music, sort of circle. Do you have any others around you that share this sort of motherhood slash music experience, or do you find It's not really that anyone, I feel very isolated actually. Yeah, that I'm in my faculty is very small. So I've only got one other colleague who teaches music and she has no children. Look, actually, my instrumental teachers are actually no, I've got two that that have got children. I don't know, of one of them, my vocal coach, she, she's got, she's got one son, a young son, I haven't actually, you know, sat down and spoken with her. So this might be a really good thing to kind of open up with them. They, you know, how they, how they cope with their creativity, and yeah, balancing that with with kids. But otherwise, you know, like, I've got the downhill performance coaching that I've been part of, since October, August, sorry, August of last year. And I'm actually the oldest, it's sort of me. And then 25 is the next eldest, and then it's like, 19, and all the way down to eight. So even the teachers, they none of them have got kids. So I feel very isolated, even within that, that sort of performance coaching family that I'm part of as well. Yeah, it's interesting isn't like, you can be a part of something and share something so strong, but then that with them lacking that experience of of being a parent, because it can create quite a separation, I guess, at different types. Have you found sort of any times where, and even through your work that people just don't get it? When you're a mom and you need, you might need to change something or do something because your kids need you? Like, people don't understand they sort of, because they don't, they don't have children? They don't get it. They're like, Oh, really? Like, have you found that happen at all? No, not really, actually. I think most people are pretty good. And if if they haven't got children, they've got you know, close family members that have got young children, and they're quite understanding of seeing how they travel, you know, and how hard it is for them. Look, it's completely different when you've got your own like, you can't compare but you know, I think most of being pretty good. Let's take six and I am not your SWANA. So we've raised the topic, this concept of mum guilt that that phrase that society is created for us. How do you feel about that? The mum guilt and Yeah, funny that because I was at a podcast, a live podcast on Thursday night. It was filmed. I don't know if you've heard of the Melbourne housewives? Sure. Have you heard of Jackie Gillies? Yeah, I actually I saw your your Instagram post and I was jealous. I was hurt because Julia Maurice was on there was interviewed a Jackie Gillies was interviewing Julia Morris and Julia Morris, who is, you know, in the show beers, and she's got two kids of her own. And Jackie was interviewing her and asking her about, you know, how do you find the balance? And she's like, hard work hard works work times work. So there's no bloody difference. And she's like, do you get guilty you know, being off working, especially with the gig she's got at the moment with I'm A Celebrity Get celebrity out of here because she she goes overseas for that down South Africa. And she said, You know what I used to she goes, I just think guilt is bullshit. And you shouldn't have to put that on yourself. And it's taken me until I'm 53 to kind of realize that so it was like for me, it was really good to hear someone else it's almost like it validates your own feelings when you hear somebody else say it. Yeah, so you know what? It goes I used to come home and go Oh, give me you know, lots of cuddles a year worth of colors that I missed. And she said I don't do that anymore. I just come in and slip into the way like as if I hadn't been away for such a long time, you know, not make such a big deal out of it. So it was really good to hear that because hoes, I do. I do feel guilty, especially, you know, when I'm out. I'm out on a Monday night. I've gotten another lesson on a Tuesday. Or, you know, if I'm doing some recording here for my, for my music, and that's like time thinking that's time precious time I could be with my kids. So I do feel guilty about that, you know? Does that come from yourself? Or do you feel judgment from society or others? Yeah, I definitely think it's from myself because I'm someone who's very have a lot of high expectations. So I kind of feel like, you know, I knit with the time that I've got, especially now I'm working full time. I need to be spending more time with my children now while they're young. Making sure I have that connection. But my husband always you know, he's really good. He'll go to work. They love you. You know, they really love you. Remember when you weren't feeling well, and they were all worried about you? You know, they really love you don't worry. So my husband tries to sort of, you know, say no, don't worry. Don't stress ratio. Are you here ratio? Me? Yeah. Do you did kids have that? Do they get into music? Like they know that you're doing music do that? Are they interested in like, do they come to gigs or anything like that? No. Look, I'd love to one day when I suppose I don't look I've asked Max and if he wanted to come to come to them and he's like, nice he's not really too interested. Like that's my eldest because he's you know, to kind of sit still and not you know, muck around and run around the room. Oh, my youngest would come in in a heartbeat. I think there's one thing that does make me guilty more so with my youngest is that he every time I'm out, he'll say I miss you mom. I miss you. I missed you all the time. It's nice a stabs I feel like I have to you know cuz I'm just like, oh, no, you poor little thing. Oh, dear. They're lovely. Identity, obviously when when you're not a mum, you can be anything you want. And then you become a mother and and do you have this? Is a this concept of being more than I don't want to say just a mum because that's not true that we are so much more than just a mum. But do you feel like it's important to you to maintain your own identity outside of being a mum, so maintain? You're a singer, you're a wife, your teacher or that kind of thing? Is that something that's important? Yeah, I'm actually really good at compartmentalizing different parts of my life. Like, you know, when I'm a mum, and a mom and sometimes even like that, I could be doing things with the boys and I'm guilty of you know, being on social media, which is really bad. And but yeah, I'm pretty good. Like when I'm at school, I'm teaching mode when I'm at home. You know, Mum, wife mode, and when I'm doing my music staff, it's yeah, it's I'm musician Alyssia. You know, the less the less so I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing? Is that why you chose to have a stage name to separate the two worlds for yourself? Yeah, yeah. Just to separate the mum, I'd know the me to yeah, having something separate, to identify as, yeah. Do you think? Do you kids sort of are they aware of what you're creating? Like they they see that, that you're making music that you know, and do you want them to, to know that to sort of show them that mums can still do things, I guess? Yeah, that's a good question. No, they definitely know for sure. And they know it's a big part of my life. Like even yesterday. I was part of the Dan Hamill performance photo shoot for their for their marketing. They do every sort of three to six months and We were out in the city and I got them to come with me, so that they could see where I'm coming everywhere I go every week. Yep. And my eldest is like, ah, kind of on the way out in the city every week, because he Yeah, I do. So it's, it's good for them to see that good for them to see. I think it's a really good lesson for them to save you, you know, that you've got to put the hard work in to you know, to get to set your rewards. That nothing comes easy. And you do what you have to do. To get, you know, what it is that you want. I think that's like really important. Like, you can be, you know, get the best grades. But really, I think when it comes down to it, it's got to do with hard work and dedication. So I hope that they they see that they see that and then one day, that kind of brushes off on them. Yeah. Yeah, but ya know, they definitely, they definitely do know what I'm doing and, you know, keep them in the loop. I don't know how much they really sort of care. But I know I've the funniest thing I'll tell you there was one of my showcases, when we're in lockdown last year, I obviously had to film it online. And I'm all done up with you know, red lipstick because I was and massive eyelashes and dressed up. And I walked out from the bathroom to my study. And past all the boys and Mexico's my eldest, Pam, you look ridiculous. And then my youngest goes for Mum, you look really beautiful mum looks like creatchi just funny the dynamics. See what I do to you know, to put on you know, dressing up or part of it to put on a you know, a show or performance. That's gorgeous. My little one he often say that and say Ma'am, you look beautiful, and just sort of put my dressing gown on and I feel like rubbish. But he's there to pump me up. He's a good little fella. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to share any sort of any further sort of thoughts on any issues that we might not have? chatted about so far. I just I don't know, I suppose it's just the creating that balance. Because for me, it's always a massive, massive struggle, especially now that I'm working full time to find that balance. I'm really, really good at multitasking, but it's forever keeping. I feel like I'm always floating above water and be a bit lovely to know what others are doing. But just floating above water, to find that balance of time for myself for my music, for work, my work demands that I have demands as a mom. And I think the one thing I've learnt is that if you can have at least one or two people like I do that are really supportive and willing to help out like that's everything, you know, like I wouldn't really be able to do all this without the small support network that I've got, which is my mom and my husband. And any for anyone listening like it doesn't have to be a partner or a mountain, it could be an auntie or could be a really good friend or, you know, as long as you've got someone that you can be there to kind of take a bit of a load off or to help out so that you've got that time. Like even last year, in lockdown what kept me sane and sort of helped with time was we had a living or pair. We had someone who lived I mean, we had less space in the house. But I had an extra hand. So that helped as well. So it could be anything really Yeah, find find what works, what works for you get that balance to find that time to do everything is being pulled in all these different directions and you've got a sort of like you said before, I think that idea of sort of putting things into little compartments and trying to keep things separate. That's that's a really good idea. Yeah. So what do you have coming up in the future Alicea in the future because I have never formally released anything. That's a plan that I've got Within the next sort of six to 868 months so working with my current vocal coach she's got a plan put in place some goals over the next six months so one is well, you know writing up the setlist bio. Also going to record some new music, which I did mention earlier and use that pack that I that I got from the stage door comm to on that and get the video to go with, with the song that I can release and some, some a couple of professional photos that I can use for the release. And do a she wants me to do a launch show as well. So if not at the end of the year, maybe early next year. That's very exciting. Yeah. So you can find this year's original music on SoundCloud and YouTube and follow her on Instagram and all the links will be in the episode description. Thank you so much for being on today. Lisa, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much, Alison. It's been a pleasure. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic