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Heather McClelland UK singer, songwriter, musician, composer and music educator S2 Ep40 Listen and subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest this week is Heather McClelland, a singer, songwriter, musician and music educator based in Sussex UK, and a mum of 1. Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a travelling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather’s first gig was the at an Irish Busking Festival at the age of 6. She has been writing songs since the age of 13. In her high school years, Heather sang backing vocals for her mother’s performances and was playing in bands. During her university years Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog Mcrea . After finishing school Heather went to Brazil for three years, studying music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid-twenties, she continued to perform Brazilian-influenced music (appearing at Festinho, The Royal Festival Hall and Favela Chic) as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix, Wah Wah 45's Stac, and Ninja Tune's Submotion Orchestra. As a soloist, Heather's debut EP China Mind was released in 2020 just before the pandemic hit. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer-songwriter and neo-classical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure-toned voice and her evocative harmonies Heather’s vocal group The Sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio, specialising in close 3 part harmonies. While busking, the trio were spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter Sir Terry Wogan and that lead to some amazing opportunities, including performing on BBC Radio 2 and at Royal Albert Hall. Heather has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital as lead Artist on the Vocal Beats programme, which she helped to create and develop. The project works with paediatric heart and lung patients from birth to 25 years, offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at Great Ormond Street Hospital for children. **This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. ** Heathers Website / youtube / spotify The Sugar Sisters VocalBeatsOnline Read about Royal Brompton Hospital VocalBeats project The vocal Beats Nursery Rhymes album Georgia Fields ' Find The MotherLode Heather's music is used throughout this episode with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch all music used on the podcast. He's done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowl antic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to today's episode. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Heather McClelland Heather is a singer, songwriter, musician, and music educator based in Sussex in the UK, and a mom of one Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a traveling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather's first gig was at the age of six in an Irish busking festival. Heather has been writing songs since she was 13 years old, and in her high school years, she sang backing vocals for her mother's performances, who is a singer songwriter in her own right, and she was playing in bands. During her university years, Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog McCray. After finishing school, Heather went to Brazil for three years where she studied music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid 20s, Heather continued to perform Brazilian influence music, as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix and Ninja tune to sub motion orchestra. As a soloist Heather's debut EP Chyna mind was released in 2020. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer songwriter and neoclassical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure tone voice and evocative harmonies. Heather's vocal group the sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio specializing in close three part harmonies. While busking the trio was spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter, Sir Terry Wogan, and that led to some amazing opportunities including performing on BBC Radio and at Royal Albert Hall, in addition to writing and performing him has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital As lead artist on the vocal Bates program, which she helped to create and develop. This project works with pediatric heart and lung patients from birth to age 25 offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes, and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at the Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children in London. This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. carry with me, huge huge. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Heather. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Oh, thank you. It's a real pleasure to be speaking to. Especially across the waters like it's nice to be speaking to someone it's a totally different time as well. You're in your night and I'm in my morning. Yeah, and yeah, so what what we're about to lunch. Are you in London? Where are you willing to? No, I'm actually so I'm in Sussex we were I love them. My husband just walked in the door so probably downstairs might hear him talking to the neighbors outside currently. But anyway, so I live in Sussex now which is southeast. We spent I spent a lot of time living in London and yeah during like living in a flat in London with a child in lockdown was definitely like a good like push to leave. We've been wanting to do it for ages. But yeah, so I now by now I work in London a lot. Like I just live an hour from London, but it's very much in a beautiful village in Sussex. So kind of the best of both worlds. Yeah, nice because you can sort of escape that intense busyness and sweat. Yeah, for me. Definitely. And I go to London, like at least once a week, sometimes twice. So it's really Yeah, it's still totally a part of my life. But it's very much like it when I get back to the country. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Things You just reminded me of, I'm already going off topic. We went to London, it would have been 2005 everything before we had kids. And I just felt like, I didn't feel nervous at all. I just felt like I was at home because we watch a lot of English TV shows. Yeah, in Australia. And it was like, Oh, I just felt so relaxed. And like all the accents, I found myself starting to into, like, do people's accents, like he would say, Yeah, and it was just really fun. And it's so relaxing. And then so nicely think London's relaxing night. I mean, there's no doubt that it's often when I go overseas, I mean, I haven't been I've saved for a long time now. But we'd go to Asian countries, because they're close for us. And you just don't know what you're going to get. But obviously, the language barrier, the smells are different, like, the culture is slightly different. And I get really nervous. As soon as I get in the airport, you could always tell if there's a guard holding a gun, you're sort of like, yeah, it's a totally different vibe. Yeah, London was just like, Ah, this is, ya know, it's so great. It's so great. And it's so great. It is great when you have child children, like there was a lot of stuff to do. But it's such a great place to be pre kids as well. Like, I really enjoyed this period, like late 20s, early 30s, living in London and just go into parties and go to magazine party just doing really fun, you know, just having that live for a bit. It was great. And then you have kids and then you're like, God, it's quite an effort. With my child. I'm already going out. Yeah, the organization. It's just like, it's a whole like, lane for like, this whole. Yeah, so that has to happen. The other thing you reminded me when you talked about leaving an airway, there's a show we get over here called escape to the country, but and visions of people how they go, Oh, we just want to get out of this city. And oh, it's like, that is literally what England is like right now. I mean, there's so many people that are moving from London, especially like in this village. Everyone's just like, Oh, God, country, so yeah, it's so much that's why Yeah, I I'm gonna have to do some Googling when I get off and I'll have a look at some pictures of your what your little areas like? Yeah, like it's gorgeous. Yeah, totally. The other thing I love asking people about is their weather. What's your weather like at the moment? Um, yeah, it's pretty good. It's okay. It's just like, yeah, it's just gray skies. And I think it's very, you know, you can really feel by the beginning of March, you know, we're all just like, desperate for spring, it's been this kind of really intense winter, and it was really sunny the other day, and I was like, Oh, my God, like, hope you live like, there's that kind of vibe. And then, yeah, so I think it's like, although it is a bit gray, you also kind of know that it is hopefully, I mean, it's England, so it has snowed at Easter before, but do you hope that we're kind of coming out of there, like, sigh like back end of that kind of wintry vibe. And I think for us, it's really nice, because we've only been here like, we've been here just over a year. So we kind of saw, like, you know, the blossoms coming out and like sort of discovered it, but it was very much when we moved here, you know, we were still in a lockdown. And we also were kind of, you know, just figuring out the house and whatever, just basically very, very new to it. And now I'm quite excited about the fact that like, I know that the sun is coming and like just sort of discovering this area and watching like the blossoms come on the trees and stuff because that is quite special, isn't it when that starts happening after you know, because it's so I mean, as with most people, I definitely know I'm quite affected by the weather. And after you've had like really bleak winter, you're just a bit like oh my god another day and then suddenly the sun the sun shines and you're like, okay, yeah, okay, like life is good. Yeah. So yeah, it's quite great right now. It's fine. Yeah. drizzly with with a view to sun. Every time it's sunny, you felt like you have to do something. And then you're like, Yeah, it's fine. To do like, I can be sunny and like, we can also just be like, oh, yeah, we don't have to go on these massive trips. My husband was like, sunshine and we have to go on a walk and you know, so it's like, knowing that we're in a nice place now that we're gonna have hopefully a whole lifetime sun coming in. Yeah, you don't have to do it all at once. Yeah, exactly. I love that. You're a singer and songwriter and a musician. Can you tell us about how you got started? And the meat of it? Yeah, sure. It's so weird. I was thinking about this today because I was thinking it's like I do so many different things musically in terms of my life is like, it's yeah, there's there's a few like very different things that kind of obviously intertwine. But it's quite rare almost to like, talk to someone about all of them at the same time, do you not like because it's almost like you're kind of like, oh, this is me when I do music and hospital or this is my singer somewhere and stuff. Well, this is the vocal true, like, so you kind of have these quite different, like mindsets. And then you're like, oh, yeah, it's really nice to reflect on everything. So I basically, yeah, so I grew up in a musical family, but in a very alternative way. So like, I didn't have it wasn't like I had like four more lessons or anything when I was a child. I mean, I would have loved that. But like, I had kind of quite the opposite, like really alternative parents that just did music, like so I kind of just grew up around music. My dad was Irish. So I like had a lot of like, Irish music, which is actually I think that does feel quite important because in the Irish culture, it's just so like, natural and instinctive. So I kind of grew up a lot around, like all my, his family would always just be singing at gatherings like my granddad, even when he was like 95 would be like singing into into the early hours of microphone at party, you know, that kind of vibe. So, yeah, so I just grew up with that. And then, and then my first performance was when I was like, about about five in Ireland. So we're basically traveling around and a boss in Ireland. And I had my first ever performance was with my all my family, and my mom and my dad, and my brother and my sister have more since then. But at the time, it was just the three kids. And we were performing in a busking festival. So like, they basically had to like go round, you'd go and get kind of basket and then get chosen and be the finalists on the stage. So we got chosen to be the finalists on the stage. So I have this memory of being about five and like fighting over a microphone with my brother and sister because we're slightly different heights. And then we like sang. And I don't know, I mean, I think that the whole town came in my mind and my memory there like 1000s of people watching. I mean, I don't know, they're probably a couple of 100. I don't know, like, you know, so that was Yeah, so I guess that kind of it was always like, it's weird, because it was always very natural. But because of that I kind of it wasn't like a big thing that I saw. It was just like, oh, yeah, cool, like, and then your family broke up. Yeah, it's just what I did. And then my family broke up, my mom and dad broke up. And then my mom got together with an African musician and had a few children with him. So I grew up in with like, a lot of like, West African music around me. So then that was all like, we're kind of always traveling with that. And they were working doing a lot of music in schools. And, and performing. And then and when I was a teenager, my mom used to sing. And I used to basically sing like backing vocals for her. So it was quite a weird like, I was saying this the other day, I say this gig that is like, literally the moment where I was really embarrassed about my mom because you just go through that phase when you're a teenager right? Where you're like, oh my god, mom, like what are you saying? I was literally standing on stage with her at the same time as being like, totally, like singing her songs was like, oh my god, like so it's really interesting conflict. But yeah, but then I think I kind of Yeah, it was like not they did obviously, like, encouraged my singing, but it was weird because it was like, it was just quite a sort of like, it wasn't like I'd meet someone and they'd be like, in my family, they'll just like oh, yeah, cool. You sick rather than like, was kind of later in life when I would go and do stuff with other people that would be like, Oh, wow, like you can really sing. Whereas it was just kind of like just what people did. And then yeah, and then it was kind of when I went to uni that I started really like having my own bands and like started you know, I was always writing stuff since I was a teenager but then it was like when I started going to university I started performing with my own bands and then I went I spent a few years living in Brazil and doing music there and that was like for me that was a really nice again, it was very much like kind of culture that you know, it's very on British in the way that music is very much like everyone there and it was just you know, you have no no space to be like really shy and like oh, I don't I feel a bit self conscious about singing. It's just like you sick, sick. So it kind of so going into Brazil really helped me kind of with you know, overcoming any sort of shyness and also it was a really nice it was a period where I just met all these new people, and no one knew anything about me and It was the first time I'd kind of had these people that were like, Wow, you're a singer, and you've really got some income, we want to really support you. And I had a whole group of people that really sort of supported me to go and do recording. And like it was the first time almost that I kind of, I don't know, like, yeah, that was almost like an adult away from everyone. And someone knew nothing about me that just had me. So it was like, a really important chapter in my confidence, I think. And that's where I made a decision in Brazil, like, whatever happens, even if I have to, like bask on the street, like, I'm going to pursue a musical path. And yeah, and I have done that. I mean, it's been, obviously, as you will know, is a very up and down journey, but like I have pursued it, and then it's taken me to lots of like, different, you know, places and yeah, really exciting things. And yeah, like, we'll mix and stuff from where I don't see myself to him. Yeah, so then I did like a lot of stuff with my solo staff in Brazil. And then I came back and I and I've kind of carried on pursuing that. And then I also speaking of busking on the streets, like I kind of had a, a trio that, like, I have a couple of friends who are really, really incredible singers. And one summer we were like, oh, like we need some money over summer. Why don't we just go and Bosque and so we put together this, this trio called the sugar sisters, which is very much like, you know, close pot harmony, but all very visual as well. So dress up like 40s clothes, and it was all like, so we did that. And we just like went to Baskin from doing that. It's so funny that there's these two kind of formative things in my life with busking, but from busking with them. We can't like just so much stuff happened from that, you know, like someone I don't know if you know, this, I don't know if you know, do you know? I don't know how well known he is. But there's this person called Terry Wogan, or there was an amazing presenter here that like everyone loves like it was like, absolutely like he is he's not alive anymore. This Irish radio presenter that like, absolutely like one of the like, any person here is like, oh my god, Terry Wogan, my husband's amazing Irish man. So his, his producer spotted us busking. And then we went on to tear away his radio show, and then did quite a lot of different stuff with him. And then like, just on all these really nice gigs came and so like, I just had this kind of, you know, like, where you didn't know, something happened and went from being like, Oh, we let's go get some money. Like, we're also going to risk in this summer to like, going and being like, Oh, wow, this is so yeah, this kind of one of these random little chapters of life. And then, yeah, yeah. And then I do music as well. In a hospital, a few hospitals that I've had as a musician in residence where I get to work with some really amazing other artists. And that's a whole kind of other chapter almost, but I kind of do that. And then I Yeah, and then I write my own stuff still. And I continue performing. And I do work alongside my husband with the stuff that I write. And he's helped produce, he's amazing musician himself, and does lots of other stuff too. So yeah, kind of. It's an interesting thing, thinking about all this stuff. You've done all the stuff you kind of content like, yeah, there's so many different things that you're kind of balancing and then obviously, with parenthood and then obviously, with a pandemic, so it's felt like quite a strange time. Being musician now I'll say, but I feel like I'm only just post COVID Like, starting to believe that music can happen again do because there was a period probably like a year ago where I was like, oh my god, is this life now? Are you like, are we ever going to do the cake again? No, that was a really big stream of consciousness. So please ask a question. That's fantastic. Oh, it's it has it's been such a shocking time. I mean, Touchwood we've, personally we've been pretty good. We're in South Australia. So we're quite away from like the big centers like Melbourne Sydney that have had the big outbreaks. And we certainly haven't had the level of lockdowns Melbourne had been locked downs but like we haven't had the same level of lockdown as what you guys have had over there so but even in that was just like stuff was just getting cancelled left right and center and it was like Oh, really like my phone's my cherry lips kiss There we go. Did you find sort of new ways to be to K Playing music like is it really important to you to keep it to be honest, I found it like a really difficult time because I think I'd love to say like, yeah, it was amazing. And I like, did this and I went there and I wrote this and but actually, the reality is I like had a two year old. And I, I really struggled like it with it, because I think it's like, especially when some of my friends were, you know, we'd be like, Oh, I've just like, I mean, everyone's different. But some people were, you know, having a lockdown. And maybe they felt like, they were getting using it as an opportunity to write songs or something. But like, I know, I didn't, I couldn't write anything. I mean, I mean, I tried to I wrote little bits and bobs, but I just didn't really have the headspace I, I worked. So all the hospital stuff I was doing, I was really lucky to so I did that online. And so it was really interesting taking a whole practice online so that in a way it was you know, still doing creative stuff. I collaborate with these incredible like, this other singer stack, and he's World Champion beat boxer. So we kind of had to find a way to do a whole like, yeah, online offer to patients and young people that we work with. So in a way we were like, you know, we made a kind of like, harmony and beatboxing nursery rhyme album, while we were doing these, like live streams, also, you know, so I was doing stuff with them. But in terms of my own writing, I was sort of desperately trying to, like carve out a little bit of time, but it was like, and me and my husband, you know, the good thing is, is that we were at home together. So sometimes we would like you know, maybe just have like a little jam session in the evening or play through some stuff. But then it's funny with that, because you get like irritated like, oh, I want to play this or blood or play that like so then it's like I've got so we kind of bicker through what we're gonna play. But I yeah, I just found it like a really difficult time because there just wasn't. It just felt like survival because it was like, we were in a flat, we had no childcare and I had to work and my husband had to work. So it was kind of like if I wasn't doing the hospital work, I was doing child care and a flat with a two year old who is as an only child will sit away will say not was was never been the most self sufficient child never want to go and play by himself. But you know, I mean, it's not like, not a kind of, like, entertain himself if he's now four. But he's and he's amazing. He's really sweet. But you know, it's not a kind of like, oh, it just sits in the corner with the drawers while I sing. It's like, just on that I saw a video of you on your Instagram, you were seeing Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered. Yes. And you could hear this little boy's calling out. But that is literally, exactly I mean, we had that was that was actually during that period as well. Because that would be like we'd be there. And we had a piano in the living room. So at least I'd be like, you know, what I would always try and do is I think, okay, when can I sing? So it's like, he'd be eating breakfast. And I'd like you know, have a book of like, standards. And I played them on the ukulele and like, oh, like, yeah, get my house was there but exactly, you just learn how to just be like, the seeming like, yeah, okay, later, you know, but you can kind of weave it in. And then people are like, Oh, god, that's amazing that you can weave it in and you like literally the only way I get to do it. But actually recently, I'd say which has been so nice is I had a gig last week, and I had a few rehearsals. And he was so amazing. And I wasn't like it was the first time where I would say okay, I'm just rehearsing and someone's come around, and we're just singing some harmonies, I've set up your toys and stuff in your room. So you can come in if you want to play. And it was kind of the first time that he was actually just sort of doing that. And then also we went right, yeah, I went into someone else's house. And he was like, playing with a train set listening to us rehearse. And I was like, Okay, this is this is really nice. I'm really you know, so he's, as he gets older, he's like, he loves music. And he's more sort of getting a bit more not respectable, but like, he's sort of getting more of an understanding that like, this is important. And he like, you know, he'll go to sleep every, every night. He has phases that will either be like my out and he'll listen to or my husband's album or like when we were rehearsing, he was listening to my husband the other day, like doing some little electronic triggers for some of one of my songs, like really kind of abstract part of the track that like no one would really know what that was probably listen, he walked into when someone's can't be enough, right. So he's just got this like, really? You're like, yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because there's an incredible video. And I've got to commend you for teaching your child about amazing musicians about Yorke's. He must know her inside out. Yeah, just I'll just give you a bit of background for the listeners. There's a video where you're basically playing like literally snippets of songs, even like, it's like intro like the intro could even be like, the sound of a like one drum beat or something like the very beginning of a song. Yeah. And he's just yelling out the name. So, that's that Yeah. That is like bravo to you for not maybe not doing that with the wiggles but you know what I mean? Like, I know I did. Yeah, I know it's funny my husband's like tried really, he's he's always got a carrot into quite nice music and Akira loves it. But he's got this real like memory he's got. He's like that about your to a level that I know loads of incredible Buick fans. I mean, I love New York, but I don't think I know an adult that would be able to go head to head with him. Like he's so good at knowing what the title is. But every time he will listen, he won't just go like, I like this. He's like, so what's the name of this song? Can I see the cover like so he kind of just takes it all in. And then he'll say I want to listen to something I've never heard before. But Bjork, so he knows, like to give it like, the good thing about Bjork is she's got such a big back catalogue that you can keep discovering. And he's like that About Flags of the World and geography as well. He's got kind of crazy, great, amazing. Yeah. Yeah, that is so so it's actually been really nice with him to kind of discover and listen to music with him. You know, it's been a really nice thing. And like, yeah, some of our favorites. So he's just got a real quite a niche. And at his birthday party, he is his fourth birthday party. And anyone that that knows be, well, like, There's a song called Earth intruders, which is like, quite sort of. Yeah, quite intense. It's like quite rhythmical and quite heavy. And he was like, I want Earth intruder. So he's like saying he doesn't know his friends. He's just literally like, What the hell is going on? And then he's like, and then for lights and then musical statues. He's like, I want human behavior. And again, they're all just they're dancing. These guys. I think they're really enjoying it like. Now, Nasr, he likes to get the teacher to always plays on Bjork songs and come home. So they played possibly, maybe, but it wasn't the right version, but all the other kids are just like yeah, I love that. It's funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That brought him a Bjork t shirt for his birthday, which was what she loves is his favorite t shirt. And we did actually send because I have a friend who's like, who works who's kind of has connections of people that have connected to Bjork. So she did send me the video we didn't get a reply, but hopefully nonetheless, she's she got to watch it even if she just got to watch the video of Akira naming us she'd be pretty proud of it. I hope so. Oh, that's great. Day from all the things that you were exposed to how could what what way do you describe your style of music that for your singer songwriter? I guess I would sort of I would describe it as a ethereal very harmony driven. Yeah, I love strings. I love harmonies. And I love music that kind of creates like a sense of atmosphere and slightly otherworldly. Like yeah, so I guess it's very, like, female vocalist, but very much and yeah, and the theory away and I don't, I don't feel like it's like, oh, yeah, it's just phone call. Like it's I find it hard to kind of categorize it in a way Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say like it's it's, you know, a bit acoustic a little bit electronic. There's kind of fragments of like electronic fragments of acoustic and staff fragments of folk but all together, it's like, yeah, Ariel is kind of what I'm going for. And it's really nice because I it's taken me a long time to develop that sound like obviously, I've worked through I've been writing songs since I was like, probably 13. And I have gone through like, lots of different phases and recorded stuff that I would now say like, oh, that doesn't represent me at all. Like I kind of, you know, it's taken a while to sort of discover like, what my voice is. Yeah, what kind of musical sound I want. And I definitely think that has has my husband he's been really helpful in like yeah, I really trust his musical instinct, but I think it's the closest to I think as when you're first starting out, it's very hard to kind of sometimes trust yourself when you're like with someone that may have a louder voice or you're working with a producer or an especially because you know, I'm very much I have done more music training as I've got older and I went and studied musical in Brazil and I did different things. But I, as I said, like when I was younger, I didn't have less than I grew up and I sang in a very instinctive way. So like, actually, when you first start coming, and you're suddenly going into a world of people that kind of have different sets of theory, and then you're trying to articulate your ideas when you don't necessarily have the language for it, that can feel quite intimidating. And I think with Taz is like he is the closest I could get to like putting my ideas out so he can start. So sometimes, for example, like a lot of the stuff I've done, like, I've got a seven string guitar from Brazil, and I like, wrote a bass line on that. And then he helped translate that onto a piano like, but he did exactly what I done and was like that, or like I've got, sometimes I've written some stuff on a ukulele, I'd like some interesting chords, and then he's put that onto a heart. Or then I've written all these vocal lines, like I love writing those layers of vocal harmonies, and then he's helped translate all of those and put those onto strings. So it's like, a, you know, so it says, directors, my ideas could be with someone that can kind of translate help me translate them. Yeah, so that's, so that's been really interesting, like us working together. And obviously, he brings all his own stuff as well. But the first time we work together, I wrote this song for him. And when we first got together, and he and I knew like that, I couldn't just say the word like love, because he's he is really into lyrics, we kind of bonded over lyrics. So I remember writing the song was very pre pre kids, when you could spend hours thinking about how you wanted your lyrics to sound. So I had like, 36 pages of lyrics to get to these one lyrics. And, and I Yeah, so I wrote the song and, and then I sent it to him. And then he, like, wrote this really beautiful, outdoor piano back and then like, sent it back to me. And then from that, then that was the beginning of our collaboration. And now like, that whole outro section just has this beautiful like, Scott. It's kind of almost a track on its own. And it's got really gorgeous strings. And so yeah, we kind of always tried to collaborate in a way where like, he has sort of space to bring his style and taste and then yeah, finding his his voice comes through as well. Yeah, yeah. So how would you describe his style of music? So he has his own desk called Taz Modi. And he has his own solo project. And it's like, it's contemporary, classical, I guess. So it's very, I mean, it's really beautiful. But it's very, he plays piano and yeah, does a lot of stuff with piano strings. But he also does a lot of stuff that's electronic in it like, yeah, kind of contemporary electronic stuff. Well, doesn't really describe it very well, but quite subtle electronic stuff in there. And then he plays with a band called sub motion orchestra, and he plays a band called portico quartet. And again, both of them are kind of like elements have elements of like, electronic jazzy like. Yeah, very cool. So I first met Taz through hearing through my friend Ruby, who plays in submission orchestra who I also sing in the trio with so fast. Yeah, so I met her through that, because he plays in the band with her. And it's like, it's really nice to meet someone that you really respect as a musician. And then and then like, and then to make a connection, because I think it's so important. Like, I feel like music is such an A part of me that it's like you really, even if you just met someone, and they were like, so perfect, but you just really like, I don't know, I know, like, I have, like, you're just on a totally different wavelength musically. Like that would be I don't think that would work very well. You know, like, I know, if I did once I once was seeing someone, and he just was just he just had a really bad music taste and like, but we just, and that sounds really harsh. But it's like, we were just on a different wavelength. And I was like, it's not. It feels like such an integral part of me that if I play your song, you just don't get it like you don't get me like so. Yeah. So it's really nice that we like connect on that level. Absolutely. It has good taste. Yeah. So that's the thing is, it's about looking deeper into things and maybe seeing, seeing why you've created what you've created. And that gives you gives you a glimpse into you. And so yeah, if people are only seeing like, you know, the surface, there's, yeah, yeah. So they're like, Yeah, it's really nice. And you're like, Okay, I don't want to say that. I'm sorry. But like, with your partner, you're just like, how are you getting like, who are you? Anyway? So yeah, we do. And it's funny with Chad's because it's like, it's a really good connector between us because like, if we're really like, if we're annoying each other or kind of irritated by each other, we're having a little period of finding things challenging. Actually, probably the best way we could reconnect is like seeing each other doing music and sort of remembering who each other is, you know, because sometimes when I go and see him playing, I really kind of just see him and I like, do you not? Yeah, if you're not, I mean, and I hear the sort of sensitivity of the music that he plays. It's really beautiful. It kind of reminds me of like, really who he is like at his core, and that's like, yeah, and I think probably the same for him. It kind of really reminds you of like that. really big thing that's like a really big connection. And like I said, we connected through music, we connected through a shared love of different different styles move through a shared love of lyrics and stuff. So that is very much kind of an integral thing for us. Yeah, so. So when you guys decided to have a family? Was that Yeah. Were you conscious of how that would affect your community? Definitely. Yeah. And I really, it's still something that I found. Yeah, I just feel a little bit like, in this creative world, you're always kind of striving to do something or to like, reach some I don't know. For me, I kind of feel like there's always felt like, I've done all these really cool things, but there still feels like oh, there's this thing to actualize. And you kind of can't take your foot off, but you can't just be like, Oh, I'm just having a total break from everything. And I'll get back to my career later. You know, it's felt so i think i Yeah, so I definitely felt I was quite scared. Like having a baby. I was quite scared about like, losing my place, I guess. And actually, in a way, looking back, I actually did things like, probably in hindsight, to say, I don't, it's too soon, but like, I think, I think I'd have another baby, maybe I would give myself a bit more space. I mean, maybe I wouldn't, but like in like, I think looking back, it's like when Akira was so tiny. I was like, back doing like a really big gig when he was like seven weeks old. And he came with me. You know, and it was this like, completely silent audience of like, in a really formal place like 400 people in silence, like watching and I'd like just been like trying to breastfeed like backstage and then I like, went to sing. And then I was like, Tas came with me. So you could hold a care. But again, it's like, you know how, when you have a baby, you're completely like, it's the one thing you don't have any control, like their timing. So you know how you're like, if you like, need to get dressed up on stage, do my thing. This is timing. Suddenly, you're like, Oh, I kind of got little baby. I'm trying to get them alive. And yeah, so I kind of I remember doing that and being like, Whoa, this is actually like, I've just, I've really just had a baby. And my voice was really weird, which I get no one told me that my voice would be weird for a while after having a baby or the hormones. So yeah, it was quite, you know, and, um, and then I also went back to work at the hospital really, really soon as well, because a really good opportunity came up and I was like, oh, so I'd like you know, I do all these things like my in laws. Well, like, they'd look after I go, I'd be expressing it like, you know, when he was like, literally, like three months old, where like, I just go, I mean, I mean, little snippets, but it's like, yeah, I really, I just didn't want to Yeah, lose my place. I guess. So. And, yeah, and I think I, I want to I wonder how, if looking back if I think like, how has it affected me? And I think yeah, it has affected in lots of ways, like having a child is amazing. And I love like being a mum. It's amazing. It's given me like a sense of purpose. And also maybe that thing that you're always trying to achieve that kind of maybe, I don't know, finding a bit more peace with that and being a bit more present to the moment because actually, I think what I like one of the things about being a mum I've kind of learned since through time is if I try and do too many things at the same times as being with a carer, that's when it's stressful. Like I need to kind of, I don't want to say I need to separate my life, but I need to like it's great. Like we say in the mornings I can sing with him isn't terrible. But if I've got a gig, like actually, I really just want to have headspace to get ready for that gig. And if I am if I'm with a career in the day, I really don't want to be trying to work at the same time. You know, it's like trying to like not do it all at the same time. Because that's when I feel this real pool and I've done stuff like you know, when you're trying to get ready for a gig and you're trying to remember all the stuff you need to take and then like your child just happens to have a tantrum then and you're just like, oh god, what's been like right types hairclips things like find a deal. And what else like doing a vocal warm up? Well, like, you know, and that's when it's like, so maybe as a mom, as I'm getting older or more experienced. I'm sort of like, yeah, like I had a gig the other day and I said I was like, Oh no, we'll just get my mum to like, come over. And she will look after him. And then, and then we'll like in the night and all this stuff. And I was like, No, I just want to drop him to London and let him stay with your mom. So I don't have to have to headspace. It's like, I want to have the day to just like, prepare for this gig like mentally and practically, like, I just want to do that. And like him have a great time where he's with someone that can just be present to him. And then you know, and then and actually, it was great. And I think his task didn't quite get it. And then on the day, he was like, oh, yeah, this was actually really good. It wasn't it. So yeah, ya. I come to you it is important, I think to not only you're going out to do your gigs and have your own thing, but you still have to, while you're in your home or with your family, you still need time to be away from them. Like you need that separation, like for your sanity, you know, just to get in that zone, like you talk about just how you make sure you don't forget something for you getting ready. And, you know, definitely because it's a totally different headspace. And I think that's the thing, like when, and when you're a parent, you can't like nobody can prepare you. And I think that you can't explain the feeling of like, when you go from not being a parent to being a parent and having a baby and suddenly you're like, oh my god, I can't go for a Wii when I want or, you know, suddenly you've got this other person who is like, totally dependent on you. And it's like, it's a real shift, like you almost don't exist, I know you're getting learn your identity. But at the beginning, it's really like, what the hell like where am I bought? And I'm just now I feel like I'm a vessel for this other person. And I don't know who I am. And it's quite a weird transition period. But I think, yeah, I think that actually, and that's, you know, and I think obviously, as your child or children grow up, then you get better at like, maybe being with that. And I'm not saying that, like, you're just living for your kids, and you're not in there. But I'm, but what you have is like, when you're with your child, ultimately, like you could be about to walk out the door, and they'll be like, I need a poo or like, it's like, that's the thing, you're suddenly in this other world that you don't have really all this control of time. It's like you're in this kind of situation where actually no matter what, you're there, and you're kind of when they're little, you're there, and you're kind of helping and supporting them. So actually, it's not that it's difficult for them as well, if you're totally being like on focusing completely on something. It's like this kind of balance, isn't it? So let's see. Yeah, and then and then when you're on mute when you're being a performer, or when you're doing that is like the other extreme, isn't it? Where it's all about, like, Okay, actually, I need to think about what I'm wearing, I need to think about how I sound I need to think about what I'm gonna say like, there's all of these things, which is very much a kind of insular, like, focusing on like, you and your identity, or, you know, like the kind of the other extreme and like, so I've had a few conflicting moments where I definitely tried to do both and got really stressed. Yeah, it's an intro. But yeah, so I don't and I think that kind of sense of identity, I've really, it's still something that I yeah, I'm sort of always grappling with. And I think some people as a parent would, you know, like, I remember someone saying, like, Oh, I just want it whenever I meet anyone, I just wanna go up and tell them like, oh my god, I'm a mom. This is a no baby. And I was like, wow, I kind of I mean, obviously, that's lovely. And it's lovely that they could see my mum, but I also want to go and be like, Oh, what's the opposite was like I'm saying, this is like, I know, like, you know, because I guess it's that like, you're kind of grappling with how to be all of those things and like, yeah. I come to you. Yeah, my biggest thing was when I had my boys, it's like, you do everything for them and you like you say you exist to keep them alive. And then when you see someone down the street or someone comes to the door, the first thing they want to do is see your child. It's like, Hold on a sec. I'm the one that's keeping this thing going. I'm going you know, exactly. And I know that's natural because people are excited, but it's like you just feel like you get shafted you just Yeah, it's like, yeah, okay, whatever. I don't know. And it's Yeah. And it's weird, isn't it? Because I guess everything, everything changes. And I think, you know, I was saying that, you know, I had a really difficult experience of pregnancy because I, when I was pregnant, my mom died when I was pregnant. So I kind of had this other extreme where I was like, also, I kind of went through this identity shift where it's like, I guess, when you lose a parent anyways, already, like, who am I? And how do I exist in the world and where you exist in the world. It's like a weird, it's again, it's like one of those things that you can't, it's very hard to explain. I think it's quite an experiential thing. But when through the loss of a parent is like, your position in the world changes because you have this foundation, and suddenly you don't have a foundation, I That's how I felt so and then, but then it was like, I didn't have the foundation. But then also, I'd kind of gone up a level because I then had this other, like, needs to keep someone else alive. So I felt like in the middle, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm just sort of like, I don't have any sort of foundation below me. And now someone else needs me like, What the hell, I'm just in the middle. And it was really difficult, because you know, my husband, also, like, he would normally be very doting. But like, suddenly, all his energy went towards our son, because that's what happens. You know, when you have a pet, that's also the nub of reality, I think when you have a child is that your partner kind of they suddenly they have to also try and keep this child alive, and you don't have any sleep. And you know, so it's like this other thing where the 10 that, yeah, the support you get from them has sort of shift or you're, you know, I don't know if you find that, but your role is like sort of shifted a bit, because suddenly, you're both putting a lot of energy into another human being. Yeah, absolutely. It's like your relationship between you has changed from the energy give each other to the energy that you both give to something. Yeah. 100%. And then you have to learn how to find that energy for each other, too. But actually, in the beginning, it is definitely like, yeah, it's a shift and like, so yeah, to be honest, like that period for me was just, you know, well, pretty, like, yeah, awful. Really. I mean, it's weird, because I you know, and it's so weird looking back at those early that early stage, because it's like, on the one hand, it was lovely. And Akira is a beautiful little boy. He's lovely. And he's, you know, so on the one hand, like, I have all these special memories, but I'm also like, oh my god, that was the hardest moment in my life, because I was just like, new mom, who the hell am I really sleep deprived in total grief, desperately trying to like, bring together my own, like, really trying to hold on to like my identity with you know, like, just that kind of thing. Like, it's incredibly true. Yeah. Yeah. So it was very full on. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to ask them, he said that you your face kickback was at seven weeks. Mine was at seven weeks to you. So when you said that. But within that timeframe, where you and I know we've just talked about everything that we're doing for the baby, but I guess you would have been having to rehearse the gig like we, you were still we're still in music. You just like, yeah, I must have done. I'm trying to think of that. Did I? Yeah, it was kind of blur, isn't it? I probably would have done? Yeah, I don't think I think in that time, I probably wasn't massively, but then I would know, not knowing that gig as well as you normally they'd be like, can you learn a new cell or something? So maybe I thought, yeah, I would have probably been rehearsing, but very much like the people I was playing that gig with. It was with the sugar sister. So it was with the two other females and like, one of them also had a daughter, so they would have been very, like, you know, come to our house and like a Cadillac here. Right. You know, like, it would have been that kind of way of rehearsing, you know, it would have been sort of, okay, yeah, really support. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I do remember even trying to get to the gig was just like, Oh, I just remember like, it was really stressful. Like it was, I just kind of have this memory of me and he was like, trying to, you know, trying to leg it to get a train and it's like, raining and he was like, cry. And then we're having to like go to like pub on the way to, like, change it or I don't know, some kind of like, you know, it's like, but again, it's like you're trying to make two worlds of like a world that existed like, you have to be here on time to time with a world that is like with babywearers that actually, that is not the world you're living is this to happen right now. Okay, let's stop everything I need to feed him or whatever. Yeah, exactly. It's an interesting time to doesn't exist the same way. It's definitely a classic world. Fragments on that support element, did you have other people around you? You mentioned one of your co singers in your group had a child was there people around you that could sort of empathize and help you out and go, Oh, yeah, we get take a bit of pressure. Yeah, it kind of it was weird because I met. Or I did meet like a lot of other moms. And my, my sister also had a few has two children that are before me. So she's and we're really, really close in age. And we're really close. So she was like a really big support. But she lived in Devon. So that's quite far. And, you know, I mean, I guess it's probably not in Australian terms. But in the UK. We think it's quite far, because it's like five hours away from where we were. But yeah, but I did meet a lot of other moms. But it was a really weird time for me, because it was like, I felt very isolated. Because I had met all of these people. Like, we went to NCT. And do you have entities you know, that like the parent like, so it's the kind of thing? Yeah, so you go when you're pregnant, and you meet people, and, and it was, you know, and I've now met people that are like, I've got a few really, really close friends from there. And you know, we all had babies at the same time. But it was weird, because it was like, I was dealing with this. Like, I just couldn't, I went there. Can you imagine this was like, literally about four weeks after my mom had died. And everyone's just, they're like, Hi, what's going on for you? And I was like, Okay, guys, like, I just need to, like, this is my thing. I can't not this is what's happening. You know, I didn't Yeah, it's not like I chatted about it all the time. But it's like, I think and I think people didn't realize at the time, because I was like, I recently lost my mom. And I think it was only like, a bit after that. They were like, oh my god, I thought you'd meant like last year, I didn't realize it was just now. So I kind of like I felt this. Yeah, it was quite a weird sense of like being with everyone and having these amazing people who are lovely, who I became friends with, but no one else was having the same experience. And so it was quite isolating time at the same time, because you're just feeling something so full on I guess it might be, I guess, if you're feeling like, postpartum depression or something where you're like having something where you're like, you know, you're having such a kind of different experience of things. And I guess all like, you know, people were, your worries are very different to other people's you. I mean, if someone's talking about like, the color of the nursery, and you're just like, oh my god, like, what is my life good, like, you know, and then yes, invalidate those concerns, but like, you're just in a different place. But yeah, I did. And I really worked to, you know, build those relationships and carried on nonetheless, I'm not someone that would just sit in my house like and not do, like, I'll like, go out and meet people and keep trying and go into groups, you know, and, like, I'm very much a kind of was, I don't know, like what the word is. But, uh, I'm high functioning. I am high functioning. Grievers. You know, I mean, it's not like I didn't, I could have definitely not out there. But I didn't that was that was also the thing. It's probably the way I'd love to ignore get outta bed. But I needed to because my child was like, you know? Yeah, so, but now I've got a really nice network of friends. And then even here, you know, we've met some other really nice people even moving here. And Akira is still friends with like, you know, the people that we were with in London, and I had a great that, that, that first period of time where it was like, you know, like, yeah, like doing lunch, just being on a totally different time schedule with, you know, just sort of just getting into living in the moment and stuff with with other parents and stuff, you know. But yeah, it's very mixed time looking back on that, I guess, for me. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's right. Like you say, like, you're experiencing something at the same time as everyone else, you're but you're experiencing something so much more. Greater. Yeah, the emotional pull on you is just incredible. And yeah, yeah. Then, like you said, you're talking about all the, you know, the superficial things and you're like, yeah, no, there's actually yeah, you know, this is and it's and it's not fair, because you also know that like, and that is important to those people, like, you know, like that, that is totally valid, like what they're going through is totally valid. It's just that you're going through something very and that's sometimes their experience. It makes it you know, and, and it's hard like, it's so when you lose your thing for me, that was really difficult. It's like seeing people with their moms and stuff like that was so painful, you know, there's a constant reminder so that like, you go to the playground and someone's there with their mom and dad, and you're just like, oh, like Yeah, yeah, it's all around you. Definitely. Yeah. Listening to the art of being my mom I listened wanted to ask about Akira festival. That is an awesome name we have. Yeah, it's so random. I think that we like, I remember that it was kind of random that my sister sent me. I was texting my sister on I suppose pregnant about like names. And then I think there was some like spell misspelling. And it came up with some really sort of random name that sort of sounded slightly Japanese that was like, I can't remember it was but it was really cool. And I was like, What are you suggesting this like Japanese name and then we, and we thought it was brilliant. But then it was like, Okay, well, maybe not that well. But then we were just like, okay, it was really cool. And there was a there's a director called Akira Kurosawa who my mom really liked. And like Taz, who's really interested in MMA, like loves and like so it wasn't, it wasn't in any way because we were like, We love the director, we have to honor him. It was just that we were just like, that's kind of a cool name. And there's an I think it's a my mum was was Scottish. And I think it can apparently it is, has like Scottish like, yeah, roots, and it's sort of Scottish for Yeah, maybe for girl I can't remember. But I feel like it is in Scotland, apparently. And also, apparently it's in India and has his family has his dad's Indian. So we're like, Well, clearly there's like some connection and yeah, it's bold. It's a bold choice. But honestly, I think the energy leads to Brits I've seen on videos. Yeah. Satine. Perfect. Yeah, no, it's good. He's Yeah, we haven't met another. Okay, we're actually we did meet we met one girl that was called Akira. So I think it is a unisex name. Right? Like, yeah, but apart from that, and I yeah, I haven't met another girl. And I think she was Japanese. But I think parents in Japan, it's very much like a it's quite common, like, so I think it's in Japan. It's just like, Dave or something. You know, it's not like it's not unusual. So whereas here, it's like, just great. Yeah, it's I work in childcare. So I see a lot of different dates. Yeah. When I when I eat when that I like that. Oh, well. Oh, thank, you know, what I was gonna ask you about, about him? Did you find your songwriting has has changed, or, or sort of been influenced by becoming a mother? Yeah, I yeah, I think so I don't, I feel like, it certainly has, to an extent of like, I used to spend a really long time writing lyrics. And that's like what I like doing. I mean, I feel like the process is, like, laborious, and I don't necessarily enjoy it when it's happening. But I kind of like the results. So it's like, obviously, you know, I can rise, it's really easy to write some, like kind of throwaway lyrics I can, that's something you can do like quite quickly, but then to like, really create depth and like imagery and kind of take it, I would normally spend a really long time going through it. And I found that quite challenging in a way because I'm like, Oh, that's not really the way like you don't when you're a parent, you don't really have the privilege of being like, I'm just gonna spend a few days just really delving into this time. And suddenly you're like, right, there's a window, I just really need to be creative in this small time I've got so yeah, I think that's a that's quite interesting. And then it's funny how I'm like, also on the other side of that is like, at work, I'll often, you know, we'll be writing songs really, really quickly with people like that's what you do, like, you can facilitate other people to write really quickly. Or I'm running these like, Yeah, different sort of somewhere in sessions for different organizations. And yeah, it's so I think it's, um, I feel like in terms of content, I haven't I have kind of written some stuff around it, but I haven't I don't know how the contents like changed in a way because I feel like interestingly, for me, there was so much like, wrapped up around Yeah, parenthood and loss. And it was it was so like, sort of wound up like it was so I've kind of you know, I did like lots of different like grief counseling stuff to kind of try and unwind stuff. And I feel like at the beginning when I first had a carer, I just couldn't like I really want to point out like, I feel like it sounds like a really negative one. No, because I looked like it was really nice, obviously, you know, yeah, there's all these amazing positives. But equally, there was so much there was so much wound up in it that for a while, I found it really hard to like, write anything because it just felt like, you know, it was just like, well, this is just opening. Like, there's just, I can't really express this. There's too much in here. And I think now only in the last kind of couple of years, or actually, to be honest, only really, I started writing bits and bobs in lockdown, but not really having that much space. But only recently have I started to like really have a bit more sort of headspace and like time. And yeah, I guess it has changed because I guess I have changed, in a way is what I'd say. But I don't. But I haven't written like anything up for like specifically for him. Sometimes he's like, can you write a song for me, please? He's like, one day can I write? Can I be in it? Okay, cool. So yeah, that will come but it's so hard isn't it sometimes, like expressing all of this? I think I used to like when he was a little baby. I used to just like make up little songs and sing them to him when he was a child. Like make little all these little voice notes. But yeah, it's an evolving process, I guess is what I'd say around like Yeah. Yeah, when you mentioned their hair, he's, he's saying write songs for me whenever he's obviously quite aware that what you do and what dad does? Oh my god, like, yeah, he literally, like analyzes my lyrics more than anyone, like, in a way that like, no one pays any attention. So I'll go in and he's like listening to one of my songs at night. And he'll be like, so when you say this, what do you mean? He's like, learn the lyrics. And like, yeah, he wants he picked up I have this on on one of my lyrics. It's like, the oceans part. We meet and falling through Blue scenes. Night unveils the see unraveled, you find me. And he was like, Oh, I like the way you say unraveled there. It's kind of similar to be Oxon unraveled, isn't it? And I was like, no one has ever noticed. Like, and I'm always like, inspired by BJOG, like, unraveled, that's a great word. The only person who was three at the time, I feel anyway, but yeah, sorry for interrupting. Oh, no, no, no, that literally is about Yeah, it was heading down that path about he's, do you think, is it important to you? For your identity? I suppose that he's aware of what you do. Yeah, definitely. I think it is. Because I think, yeah, it's really nice for him to kind of know us. And, yeah, and it is, and it's nice for him. And because there's a part of him as well, in a way, you know, it's like such a Yeah, so I think it is, and it's important for him also, to kind of understand us as human beings as well, like, not just as parents, which is, you know, really not I think that's that's great, isn't it? When they're like, Oh, you, you exist, and you do all this stuff. And it's funny, because he always wanted me to go to his nursery, I think, yeah, like last it was about a year ago, we were singing a song together and he said, Oh, can you sing it at nursery so I had to go and like he got got me he was really sort of nervous. But he asked me to like, sing the song together. And it was teacher so we did. And he was like saying we need like we need to do it was really cute. But then like at Christmas I when he I went and I thought okay, I'm gonna go and just offer like, you need to go and do some Christmas singing in his nursery because it's like a really as a little Christmas present to them as that I'll go and sing with them. And so he was really excited about it. And then when I got there, he was literally just so like, it was really interesting, because he obviously all the kids are there. And like you said, you work with the MPC. Like, you know, you start seeing them. Oh, yeah, they're all really you know, and they're always wanting to cut like, yeah, they're already close. And they're all right, right there. And he was a bit like, about really kind of possessive like hugging me. He was also going after I started sang a couple of songs. He was like, Yeah, can I go play now? And I was like, oh, like singer, your master, but it's like his way of processing it. So yeah, he was really really proud as well. Yeah. I feel like it's a nice thing seeing you know, he, he's frequently kind of saying like, Oh, can I make up a song? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. And then we'll, like make little voice clips of him singing and, but the hilarious thing is because he loves Bjork. He was like he thinks in a really big walk away like a really like, Yeah, he'll be like, all this other ground like, expressive way. But yeah, I think it's like, you know I love that that's his he's very much music is a natural thing for him and I love that he knows that about us and also isn't just kind of like oh yeah mom and dad now I love that he wants to listen to us like he'll let literally I'll go in and he's listening to my music on repeat but he also does it with my mom, my mom's got an album and he will also listen to Yeah, so he'll might listen to one of her songs on repeat like in the night as well sometimes. So that's really lovely as well just like having that connection with people through music. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's so yeah, hopefully. Yeah. What was What's your mom's name? She was called net net McClelland the guy Oh, that's just lovely. Yeah, yeah this thing should be done yet. Though you try so hard. Those things you won't want to? Be. Know, we've sort of touched on identity a little bit, and talked about like the pool between the two and separating and stuff. One thing that I really liked to talk to moms about so bad for us, I really like to talk to you about your mum guilt. You know, like, it sounds really bad that I'm excited about it. But yeah, what are your thoughts about it? How do you feel about it? All that kind of stuff? No, I didn't know I was thinking about this. Before the interview. I was like, how, what is what do I think about mum? Gill? Yeah, I think I don't know how I know some people suffer from it really badly. And I was trying to be like, do I like how do I feel? And I guess it's when you? Yeah, when you're trying to do staff or like, if you're like, leaving, and he, like, going to do something, and then he's really upset or something like that. Like, that's when you could start feeling it. I think when I go, like, I think, you know, I've done some kind of like residentials have gone away and done some stuff. And it's like, when I do it when I'm there. I I'm okay, like I think I'm I'm quite good at sort of existing, like we have a really strong connection, but I'm quite good at like doing stuff being present in a different thing. And actually with Akira he's really good because because we've always, like worked and stuff. He from a really young age has gone and been the tases parents or the TAs or you know, he's actually very adaptable. Like he's not, I don't think he's a massively clingy child. Because, yeah, not that there's anything wrong with that. But like, it's like, that's just always been a lifetime. I mean, like, I went back to work really early and I. But then I'll also have like, really intense time with him. So it's not Yeah, I wouldn't go back to work full time. But I think so I think he is really happy. Like when he's with tases parents. He'll be like, I didn't miss you at all, sometimes. But at the moment, he's really like, never leave me. So we kind of go between these but anyway. But he's like, Yeah, I think we're quite good at like, being he's very confident and settled in a way. So we're quite good at like, sort of it not existing separately. But you know, like doing, like if I do things, having a great time with his grandparents, and I'm like, a way and I'm doing something creative. Like what I'm doing. I'm working on doing something like I don't I don't know, I'd not I? Yeah, I don't know if I feel guilty. But I Yeah, but I definitely can feel that pool when you're like, if they're really upset or they need you or like obviously, when you're kind of going I basically one of the things I do is I work for this amazing organization called Ultra young musicians. And I go and every month I go to Suffolk and work with really great artists and I'm like the songwriting specialist there. So every month I'll go away for a couple of days. So it's like and typically when you're about to get on the train to leave, they're like nursery phones and they're like, yeah, he's just been sick. You know, it's always like that, isn't it when you go away that that's when they're just kind of like randomly they'd get sick and stuff. So there's that wasn't that but yeah, and that's when you're a bit like, Oh God, my child and they're gonna be okay and leaving I'm like really far away and then without me and yeah, so I don't know the answer to mom guilt to be honest, that's really good now how do I feel about it? That's good we go you mentioned that you do your residency at the hospital. Can you share more about what, what's involved? About the other artists? And yeah, yeah, so basically, I started working there in 2015, and it was like this project that so it's on pediatric wards on the children's ward. And they weren't, they already had like music stuff. So it's a heart and lung hospital, I started working and they already had this whole singing for breathing program there for our adults. And then they wanted to look at like bringing music for children and young people. So I went and I was like, the first person that to do it, it was like just little old me like sort of trying to bring music to this ward. And then as it started, it was and it was great. So you're doing Yeah, a real mix that went through different ages. So that can be anywhere between like, like leading mums, you know, creating a kind of music group that people like that they would normally be going to these like groups of babies, for example, it says, so you're kind of doing like that with songs or doing kind of performance, the staff more like you're going to sing soothing lullabies, or you're like doing a singing for breathing session with young people, or Yes, it's very much like led by the young people that you work with, it's sort of guided by what's needed in the situation. And then after I'd been working there for about a year, we, we were like, Oh, this is great. And people are really engaging. But there's a whole like group, so maybe sort of teenage boys, for example, as a total generalization, but it was gonna probably be more difficult to be like, you want to do a singing breathing session, you know, like that. Yeah, some, some say yes. But so then we decided, like, then I had some really good friends who have beat boxes. So then we're like, oh, let's maybe bring beat boxing. And so then it developed into this whole big project now, which is basically singing and beat boxing. And yeah, and I play ukulele there as well. And just kind of, and so we just do a whole range of things. And it's amazing, like, I get to collaborate with lots of different artists, and we go in onto the water, they kind of, you know, you'll go there. And it's like, everyone knows, okay, you come in on this day, and there'll be like, a waiting for you. And then you seal that because it's a heart as a specialist hospital. So you'll frequently have people that will come like a couple every couple of months, or maybe it's that maybe some people will say, really long term, or some people will, like keep returning because they have cystic fibrosis, or they'll come back for different treatments. So it's like, you build a whole relationship with them. It's been really intense through COVID. Because obviously, we couldn't go on to the ward for like, yeah, yeah, over a year. And, and now even now, I'm there by myself at the moment, but like, we still I still can't sing. So it's been really full on. So I've had to do a heartlight develop a whole new practice. But hopefully soon, we'll be able to, but Yeah, cuz it's like, the more that restrictions open up here, almost the more intense it needs to become on the ward because obviously COVID is still happening, especially for vulnerable people, you know, there's clinically vulnerable people that like, you know, are very affected. So, yeah, so it's been it's been a really interesting journey for me like doing that without singing, which is like exactly what I love doing. And yeah, and I do and I also work at Great Ormond Street Hospital, which is another like, that's a really big Yeah, Children's Hospital where there's like all that's has all different specialisms. And then there's another one that I do some work out to which is which we which the vocal beat that's called vocal beats the project that we do at Royal Brompton Hospital with beatboxing and, and singing and like we've got there's lots of stuff like, online there's a whole there's like a nursery rhyme album on YouTube, but it's kind of like nursery rhymes that I could deal with listen to because as a parent and as a musician, a lot of them are just like, you know, you know, I'm saying Okay, so these are like, you know, nice nursery rhymes with harmonies and things that we, you know, that I would be happy to listen to. And then we've also got like a YouTube channel that we that because we started on the project, where at first it was just from nought to 16 year olds, but then it was like, Okay, actually, there's this whole group of young people from 16 to 25, that when you leave the children's ward, you're suddenly like an adult, but you don't really feel like an adult. So we then started, like, developed a whole program to support young adults in their transition. And then part of it we like CO design the YouTube channel with them. So there's a whole YouTube channel where I've done all these like, singing tutorials and beatboxing tutorials. It's called vocal beats, and it's gone. And I wrote, I wrote a ukulele book recently. There's always like, ukulele videos and like, so yeah, there's a lot of people like hospitalized or not like for any young people that just want to engage. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah. So it's something I mean, I'm really lucky to have done it. Like, it's great to do that as well. It's like, that must be just so rewarding to like, feel like you really feel real. I hate to using the word privilege now, because it's got a new home. Yeah. So yeah, show you that, you know, yeah, definitely. And it gives you like, it's really good. I think it's a really good. I mean, it's, it helped me a lot as an artist, because I think, you know, when you're working on a ward, it's as much as it's about obviously, it's like being talented, or, you know, so it's like, you want to have a really high caliber of musicians. And that's great. And we, you know, the program is like, really specialist and really amazing musicians. So you want to have that, but actually, an equal part, it's not like you could have the best musician in the world. And they it's not, it's almost more about the personality, like they need to be good musicians, but it's about being able to kind of relate, communicate, connect with people, because like, you are essentially walking into their bedroom in a really vulnerable situate, like, you know, you're going in to that someone's like, room when they're like child might just be about to have surgery, or like you're dealing in an intimate space. So actually, it's a real human to human connection. So you need to, like, have these like, yeah, like this kind of, you need to be able to connect and be really empathetic, but like, yeah, it's just, it's really interesting. And I think that as definitely, as an artist, there's kind of, it's really helped me actually on stage. Because it's like, when you go and sing an award, you can't like just like, say, for example, you were like someone that always only ever had your eyes closed. Like if you went in there and started seeing with your eyes first. That would never work because it's like, you have to be like I'm here. I'm another human. And we're like, connecting, and I'm making you feel really comfortable. And it's 100% not about me, it's about you. And I'm not gonna sing song. Like, there's not really any ego in this. It's about me providing something that's like, great for you. You know, like, yeah, yeah, when you're on stage, it's like, actually, it's really helpful with like, how to kind of be intimate and talk to the audience and stuff. Even if you've got like hundreds of people. It's like, you can create intimacy. Yeah, yeah. It's so yeah, I remember, as a kid singing, our teacher taught us to look over the top of people's heads. He used to teach us not to eyeball people, because I think he thought it would put us off, or, you know, we'd start laughing or whatever. Then I came to this point in my singing that I thought, Oh, my God, I'm connecting to people. I'm just looking at. Similar thing. Like, you have to, you have to look at these people. Because they're in your you're in their space. Yeah, yes. No ego. It's about what you're giving to them. So like, it breaks down that barrier. Yeah, your audience almost becomes a part of your performance. Like, it's not like you're exactly. And then, like, you're all together. Yeah, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. And there are people out there who are like, you know, the greatest. They're certain artists who are so amazing. Like, they can sit on stage with, like, 1000s of people. And it's as though they're like, having a really intimate chat is that you know, yeah, absolutely. That like that relationship with them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a really interesting and yeah, you do feel really privileged. It's also you know, it's, it can also be really emotionally challenging as well. I do a lot of, you know, also working with, you know, yeah, kids with cancer are working with, oh, you know, that dealing with loss, which you do, like, or, you know, that is some of the patients we work with are really, really sick. So, that can be really challenging, but also it's like you do equally. The same reason it's really challenging. You get to like, it's also really rewarding, because you're like, Oh, my God, like this person had a really short life. And I made a really big impact. Like the other day, I was just working and I went and like, there was some parents and they were sitting in the room and their child had gone down for theater. So they're obviously like, anxious as you would be if your child is going off to theater. And I went to do music with another little kid in the bay that we're in and the mom before I started, oh my god, like I just need to show you this before she had these really beautiful photos on her phone or when her child that was like about four I think now had been a little Baby to take most photos of me singing to her child. And she was like, Oh, we've had these all printed out. Like they're in this book. You're such a big part of his journey, you know? So like, it's really nice when you're like, yeah, yes, this makes feel emotional. I know. Oh, my God, I could go on. That's a really like, light story. But yeah. I know. I know. Yeah, it's very. So it's it was interesting. Like, I would also say that as the headspace, like, sometimes I feel very pulled in different directions, because it's such, it's like, you need so much headspace that that work is amazing. But it's like you are processing so much, you know, because it's like you're taking in, you're going into like, really emotionally charged atmospheres. And you're trying to like, and you can't go, like you're trying to process something, you know, which can just be that you're, you're there and you're seeing someone dealing with a really complex situation. Or sometimes you see someone that's the same age as your own child, and you're like, Oh, my God, you know what I kind of really resonate with you. Or there's sometimes obviously you do deal with loss. And so it's like, you kind of and it's again, it's very hard to explain that, like you're in this world, and then you come home and then you're trying to like, process that as it takes quite a lot of headspace. And then obviously, then you've got like the headspace then obviously, that that headspace doesn't exist in parenting, you know, like, then you come home, and it's like, you're just there for your family and stuff. And then you're dealing with like, headspace of like, being your own artist. And so it's like, and then you're just doing the headspace of like, I really need to just sort my house out because I just need to decorate or needs to be tidied or whatever, you know. So there's so many parts of you that you're always like, Wow, it really, there's so many different directions isn't there that you feel like you're kind of being pulled in. And, and I really, I, you know, so grateful to have created a life where I am able to do music, you know, like, I'm still into, like, I'm still doing singing and performing. And then with the staff, the hospital work that I'm still doing some, like, I'm still using my musicality to do the work that I do. And that's like, you know, it's really like lovely, and you really get to see the impact of music in a way that you don't see in like many other places, I would say like it just it like, it just lands in that space. Because it's such an emotionally charged space. It's just like, you really see this kind of very immediate impact. If you're not like yeah, it's Oh, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Actually, I'm getting goosebumps when you say that. It's just like, it's so music is just incredible, like the connections and yeah, out to can transform you from one time to another and totally amazing. Yeah. 100% Yeah. And I think people are starting to see it, like a bit more in a way. You know, I guess that the way that they're seeing that, like, the impact that music can have on dementia patients or like people, you know, that it's like, how like, just stuff that is like, wow, this is kind of magic. Stuff that you see that music does, and it happens literally all constantly with the work we do. There'll be these things that have happened that you're like, Whoa, you know, like this the first time that someone has come out of surgery, like they haven't stood up for days and suddenly the music makes the baby stand out. Well, you know, this is a little you're just seeing like this amazing impact. Yeah, I mean, music is and music is the best thing ever. Think singing is like the best thing and then harmonies best really love. Honestly, when I read like Instagram bio and have kids like I'm like probably 2020 years formally in a in a vocal group. Like because. So harmonies but right right from the beginning of my life. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk that was selfish. To talk to a fellow musician. Yeah. My sister and I were there's two and a half years between us and we're both got very similar voices, except she can go lower, and I can go higher, but we're still got the same. Like when we're both singing It's really hard to tell us apart. So we Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, something about blood singing Isn't that likes people when you're related? It's awesome. And yeah, so we've always sang together. We used to mess around and do concerts on the on the Sunday afternoon like push the the coffee table. Table do concerts for mom and dad. And my parents weren't like not they weren't like musical at all. They loved music, but neither of have them actually played or sang but their siblings or mums. Dad was very, very good singer and his mom. So my great grandmother was an opera singer. Not I don't think she was a formal but she had an amazing, amazing. Wow, I never heard it in real life, but I've heard lots of stories. And then my dad's side, his sister and his brother by sing, and his mum was really good thing. And his dad was a good thing I found out later in life. So it was, but it wasn't right there for my sister we just had they just had it in your blood. Yeah. And I first discovered harmonies because dad used to play a lot of American country music like Johnny Cash and Don Williams, and don't John Denver, and they're all obviously male singers. And I wanted to sing along, but I couldn't sing low enough in their register. And because I'm an outer, I couldn't sing an octave up. I mean, I probably could now but at that point, as a kid, I couldn't. So I had to learn a way to sing along. So I just started singing in harmonies, and wow, it was just this innate thing. I don't read like I couldn't read music to get by. But I'm not like a theory person by any means. So things by Yeah. Yeah. And that used to really annoy my, my, or like my organ teacher and my chill. I could read bass clef though. I can read bass clef. Not anymore, but it was really odd how your brain works. Yeah, so yeah, my sister and I've always saying she's always saying that she and I've always seen the harmonies, and it's just we've been like that our whole life. And it's so much more interesting as well, isn't it? Sometimes it's not like, you're like, hey, I want to do the harmony. Today, we'll be talking about how your husband you and your husband get on musically when my husband is musical. And not he doesn't do much these days. But he used to play in a in like a covers band in a country pub sort of environment. And when we first got together, I realized very quickly that he actually sang the harmonies. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is gonna work. That seems like a split second. And Alison, it's okay. And I grew up listening to like, my mom listens to like Crosby, Stills and Nash and I don't like like very much like, I grew up listening a lot to Harmony stuff. And that's kind of how I learned to sing harmonies was like, you know, singing in the car with my mum, and I'd be like, I'll try and do this one. And you do that one, and then she gave to my one. I'm gonna stick to your one. Anyway, yeah, but the staves are kind of like a modern day. I mean, they're gorgeous. You're like, if you're a harmony enthusiasts, they they are incomparable. I would say, you know, I've seen this live a few times and they've got the big sisters have which is like, there's something about blood people like related to each other Singing isn't there but you have sometimes like, is that a magic that you just have? It's like you have like an you have a what's the word? Not a telepathic connection? Is that what it is? Yeah, you can actually read each other and you know what someone's about to do and you can Yeah, like you change at the exact same time it's just yeah, it's always pretty special. Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, I've been doing stuff with Yeah, with some new singers recently, some really great singers are doing backing vocals to me and, and they sound lovely, but I was thinking, I wonder if I would do like because I've always done my own harmonies and it is like in tears was saying, oh, you know, actually in a way it's always the best he was like No, I think the best is always having people that blend really well. It was like you know I think the Beach Boys like they've all got so yeah, also you have got away like when you write yourself like in your mind it sounds like Yeah, it's interesting was recorded that you're like, yeah, how so? I've always ended up my own harmonies but yeah, maybe maybe I'll graduate to but it has to be so freakin tight doesn't have someone else's harmonies on your track but they are excellent at blending. And you're so critical of it because you know how you want it done. And you know how you could do it. So you're like yeah, every little bit you like yeah, Yeah, I guess I'm just kind of in terms of stuff that's coming up is like, yeah, it's just I think I'm getting gradually, like a little bit more space and time, you know, as Akira is getting a bit older, and we're sort of settling in here. And things are shifting a bit with COVID. And, you know, you can see sort of a bit of light at the end of that tunnel that, you know, starting to find because when I first moved here again, it was like, it was again, like, how do I you know, bring my identity, this singing identity here, because I kind of, I was in London, and then I came here on a lockdown. And then I really wasn't music. And then it's like, you meet all these really lovely people. But then you kind of also want to share like the other aspect. You know, it's like, yeah, of yourself. And actually, one thing that's been really nice is when I did a gig recently, and it's a fast game I did in Brighton, which is near to where we live, which is the biggest city where the city near where we live. And you know, it's fairly close. But it was really nice to see. All of like, my new neighbors, and we've met some really great people. Yeah, all of our new neighbors, just being so like, supportive and like really, yeah, just really excited and like coming to the gig. And you know, and it's really nice, because I guess that felt kind of, I don't know why it felt so important. But I just really, you want, you know, yeah, you kind of want to feel because I guess music is like, it's such a part of like who I am. It's not this kind of thing that I'm just like, oh, yeah, I just like do this thing. It's like, it feels like this. Yeah, this big part of who you are. So it's like, you kind of want to be able to bring that aspect of yourself. And I guess it's been a real the last couple of years. For me personally, I have found it a real challenge in terms of music, because it's like, you know, all the live, like the whole live industry is pretty much sort of, you know, shut down. And then also like, not even being able to sing on the wards. So it's like, I just had this thing where I've just been, like, you know, for the first time in my life is just like, oh my god, like, I'm sort of desperately trying to do this thing. But then you're like, why this is so feels like such a kind of uphill struggle. But then at the same time, you're like, oh, but who am I if I don't do that, because that is kind of who I am. Yeah, so it's just, it's been really nice to have a bit of time to yet I kind of am starting to feel again, like, Okay, I'm reconnecting with that, you know, like that side of myself doing music rehearsing people performing in like, the last gig that I did, I really tried to enjoy the process as well, rather than just, you know, like all the because it is a bloody lot of work, isn't it when you're doing stuff, but try to enjoy, like, every rehearsals when you're like getting to hear your songs being played and singing harmonies with all these really amazing singers I was working with and like, yeah, so it's like, trying to bring that in, rather than just Yeah. Because if you don't enjoy the process, then it can just feel like a hell of a lot of work, you know? Yeah. Do you think that that's also because? Because you are now a mom. It's like, every little that you do, you're holding on to that, and you see the importance in it. Whereas before it was, yeah, I've got to get this done. And then the gigs the big thing? Oh, yeah, definitely. And I also feel like as a mom, I mean, you get really good at just like, using your time well, don't you because you have so little time, so you get really good. And you know how you asked about? I guess like creatively, a really positive thing about being a mom, is that you don't that you don't wait for inspiration. Do you? If you're like, I need to do something creative. I've got like these hours on a Friday. Yeah, that's my creative time. You know, like, it's not like, I feel like it's just like, No, that is my creative time. Yeah. And like, and also I don't feel like you know, in the evening and stuff, like sometimes in the evening, you feel like doing stuff but equally in the evening. If you're just you know, you're pretty knackered against our writing songs. I mean, it's much more of a like, I'd way prefer to, like get up really early and do stuff like that'd be my my thing. Yeah, so I guess like, because I feel it's funny thinking about all the the way we've discussed stuff because I don't, I don't want to feel it sound like a really negative parent, because I feel like I'm really not. You don't sound like that. Because, like, I feel like but it is, you know, but the reality but I think I'm also very honest, because the reality of parenting is that, you know, it is like in terms of a whole identity of being an artist being a mom. Yeah, like it really is a big shift, isn't it? You're learning it takes time to kind of come to terms and all that to kind of find who you are. And I guess for me, because I have had such an intense like You know, journey of parenthood, like loss of a mother, then the pandemic, there's two, like quite intense things have happened at the same time. So you're like processing so much stuff. And then just finding. Yeah, and then the other side of being a parent is I think it gives you like, freedom with Akira, I think it's also sometimes I'm very much someone that like, feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, quite, there's quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like quite a river. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to write this and I want it you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with a, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well German and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like, on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can, like, get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever. You know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things and having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. A new chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. next five days. Now, good on. Yeah. And look, honestly, you you have not come across as negative at all. Please don't like that. Because everything you've said, People mums have said it before. It's like, yeah, it feels the same way. It's like, yeah, it's just what it is. Yeah, and it's really hard. I think the difficulty is with parenting, is if you said to something like if someone who hasn't got a child hears this, they'd be like, Oh, that sounds awful. You know, I mean, because but what you don't always like what you can't really express is that sort of sense of love, isn't it? So you don't go around being like, Oh, my God, I love my child so much. It's amazing. He's given me purpose. It's just so brilliant. You kind of like the part that you will be like, yeah, because obviously, that's just like a given, isn't it? So it's like, another parent, you just know, like, yeah, obviously, like, you think your child is incredible. And it's the best thing you've ever done. And it's amazing. Like, that's a given. And it's really hard, because it's this, this, this, this and that, but that's the stuff you're talking about. But like, yeah, so that's the difficulty is I think people would just be like, Wow, that really doesn't like sound. Like, like the benefits outweigh the costs. Somehow, if you and I remember hearing someone say, it's like, if you tally everything up, actually, definitely the costs do not outweigh the benefit. Like there are a lot of costs, but then the benefits are so incredible in that small like that, that it makes it all worth it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. My I've got a 40 CD and 14 He's turned 14 over a six year old and a 14 year old and my 14 year old the other day. I like not the other day all the time. If we're having trouble with the little one. Alex will go this is why I'm not having kids. I'm not having children and like if he just keeps coming up with this stuff. I'm not doing that. I see how to use b I'm not doing that. Like mate but it is so good. Like you just say yeah, the hard stuff that's the stuff that's loud and gets noticed you know the the activity whatever exactly the challenges, the challenges, but it's all the other lovely things that you're not notice the Commodores isn't it? It's like the cuddles or getting woken up with a little kiss or whatever. Like stuff that you can't really explain that could happen when you have those like hugs and stuff. Yeah, and she's just hanging out and chatting or like we do some painting together and he plays on the keyboard and like just all the other stuff because it's not loud and noticeable. Yeah, he just can't say that stuff. And I said you'll change your mind one time. No, I'm not I'm not either. I think I have so many younger brothers and sisters and I was very much exactly like similar like 14 When I had when my mom had my little sister and I think for that reason. All of my family like my siblings all had kids like what it was anyway yeah, we've all had kids quite late because I think we would just sort of watch the galaxy like wow that is very intense. Yeah, like never have like loads of kids because we're like no, no, no. Yeah. Follows With us get lost. And I feel like I've got quite a unique voice as in like, I think I've got quite a unique experience of parenthood were actually like a lot when when I was going through my own journey of loss and motherhood, like I found it really, I desperately wanted to find people that had that direct because you know, when you're kind of experiencing it, you're so desperate to find connection, because I desperately wanted to find other people that had that specific experience, like, loss, but yet actually losing your mom when you're pregnant. Because that even before after feels so different, like for me, it was so specific. Yeah. And I couldn't find any, I find it really hard to find that. So I feel that I have quite a sort of unique point of view. And there's quite a big sort of gap. Like, there's definitely a space there. And I feel like when I'm in the right space, and as times moving on, I feel like I've got a lot of stuff to write or join me or some way that I can use that experience creatively. Like as an artist bringing that together, like that experience, and whether that comes through in songs or speaking like, I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I feel like there was there's this there's a story to be told in some way. You know, like, that's how I feel about it. Yeah, yeah. Good on you. Yeah. What's the space? And that's the thing. You could be helping by sharing that in your future, the amount of people that you can be helping through that, because, you know, like you said, it's hard to find people have that, that specific experience, you know, totally. And yeah, and there could be loads, but it's just like, I couldn't find like I was there, like, looking on all these platforms, like asking, you know, grief support group like stuff, you know, and it was, yeah. And there were people that had lost their mom, there were like, groups with that, but there weren't specifically in pregnancy. And I was just like, I just, yeah, it'd be really good to like, hear. And I remember listening to one podcast where there was another singer, actually, who had had that same experience. And it was very intense. And like, yeah, listening to that, but it was it was also really helpful being like, Oh, yes, someone? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah. It's important, isn't it to be to be able to express yourself and, and make those connections? Like, yeah, yeah. And it's so good, what you're doing, like, it's really great, like, made the time and space and like building this thing, because I'm sure it is making a difference to like lots of people. And I think you can leave like, it's so important, isn't it? I guess we're creatives that, you know, yeah. I imagine that for most people. That feeling of your own identity and creativity, and like, you know, grappling with how that exists, and how that CO exists? As a parent, like, yes, it's quite a big thing, isn't it? How that. Yeah. And coexist as well. Yeah, the way you described about that fear of whether you'd get back to the point you were or, you know, remaining in that space, that is a really common thing, like, especially like performers. Yeah, I've really expressed that like, because, you know, when you're, you know, you're building you build relationships with venues or, you know, other bands or whatever, and then you step away from it for for a period of time. And then it's like, you've got to start again, like, maybe someone else is running that venue, and you have the like, or who, who are you and you know, you've got to try and sell yourself again, and just remain relevant. Yeah, there's a lady Georgia fields who I interviewed last year, and she actually runs platform like her Instagram, it's called Finding the mother lode. And her her whole setup is providing resources for moms who are musicians about how to sort of navigate that whole space and how to get back into it all the emotions you're feeling and that sort of stuff. She's really amazing. Yeah, she said the same thing. It's just she thought she had this fear that that part of her life might actually be over. And that was a really horrible thought to have. Yeah, yeah. Because you can't do like, the reality is, life is different. Like you're not the thing is, when you have a kid, like you can't operate at the same, like, life has changed, hasn't it? So it's suddenly you know, you're not going to track up and down the country doing like unpaid gigs, I mean, things are nice. And you're in your 20s, where you're like, building my status as an artist or whatever, like the things that you could do. It's like, you cannot physically do that stuff anymore. Not that I want to do that necessarily. But you know, I'm saying it's like, everything has shifted, so it's like a whole like, how can you still keep building something but then you know, and my husband is like, going on tour in April as well. So then you're always navigating like his staff with my staff and then yeah, it's that's that's the other interesting side of it. dynamics. But yeah, so life has changed. And that's kind of great. And kind of challenging is when it has changed like, yeah, there's nothing you can like. Yeah. Yep. You just got to sort of work through overburdened Yeah. Yeah. And hope that more parents are like speaking about it thank you so much for coming on here though. And it's just been so lovely to chat with you. Oh, no, thank you for having me. It's been really nice to have this chat to it's been really lovely. Yeah, getting to talk about all the stuff that you don't really get to talk about. So it's so nice having someone asking questions about all these things. So thank you. Now it's been a pleasure. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcasts or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom. This thing was done yet though you try so hard those things you won't want to Oh there is inside Combi? Inside distressed distress distressed

Hannah Olson US artist S3 Ep90 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Hannah Olson is an artist and mother of 3 girls, living in Utah, USA. Originally from Luton England, she has enjoyed being creative from a very young age. In High School she had 2 really wonderful art teachers that pushed her and introduced her to many mediums like watercolour, charcoal and pencils, and encouraged her to pursue it. A high school teacher's words have remained with her "It doesn't matter what you do, but always stay creative." In College she decided to take all of the art classes she possibly could and discovered oil painting and fell in love with it. She tends not to stick to the same mediums, or subject matters, mixing it up between charcoal and watercolours, painting portraits, landscapes and still life's. Hannah really enjoys the challenge of working with new materials and subjects. She is inspired by many artists like William Bouguereau, Sargent, Van Gogh, Carl Rungius and more recent artists such as Jenedy Paige, Cesar Santos, and Andrew Tischler. While being a mum to three little ones is not easy, she finds time to paint and draw in between nappy changes, piles of wash, and endless messes. Although her children are her main focus right now she can't wait for the chance to create more and inspire others through her work. Today we are joined by Hannah's 5 month old daughter Millie today in the podcast. Hannah - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,800 Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,800 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,560 issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,280 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,080 influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms and we also stray into territory such 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,480 as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 7 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:37,920 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,200 link to the music played, how to get in touch and a link to join our supportive and lively 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 community on Instagram. 10 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,960 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,840 any time you're concerned about your mental health I urge you to talk to those around 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,640 you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,160 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,800 page alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 15 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,160 The art of being a mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water 16 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,320 which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bowendig people in the Beren region. 17 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:23,840 I'm working on land that was never ceded. 18 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,640 Thank you so much for tuning in today, welcome to the podcast. 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,520 My guest this week is Hannah Olson, she's an artist and a mother of three girls living 20 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,680 in Utah in the United States. 21 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,000 Originally from Luton in England, Hannah has enjoyed being creative from a very young age. 22 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,720 In high school she had two really wonderful art teachers that pushed her and introduced 23 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,880 her to many mediums like watercolour, charcoal and coloured pencils and encouraged her to 24 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,340 pursue art. 25 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:56,640 A high school teachers words have stayed with her ever since, it doesn't matter what you 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,720 do but always stay creative. 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,680 In college Hannah decided to take all of the art classes she possibly could and discovered 28 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,640 oil painting and fell in love with it. 29 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,840 Nowadays she tends not to stick to the same mediums or subject matters, mixing it up between 30 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,720 charcoal and watercolours, painting portraits, landscapes and still lifes. 31 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:24,080 Hannah really enjoys the challenge of working with new materials and subjects. 32 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:29,840 She's inspired by many artists like Van Gogh and more recent artists such as Genity Page 33 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,920 and Cesar Santos. 34 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:36,320 And while being a mum to three little girls is not easy, Hannah finds the time to paint 35 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,480 and draw in between nappy changes, piles of washing and endless messes. 36 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,880 Although her children are her main focus right now, she can't wait for the chance to create 37 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,240 more and inspire others through her work. 38 00:02:50,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Today on Hannah's chat you'll hear from her five month old daughter Millie who joins us. 39 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,280 Thank you Hannah for coming on, it's such a pleasure to meet you today. 40 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,120 It's a pleasure to meet you too, I'm excited to be here. 41 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,640 Oh that's awesome. 42 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:13,240 So where abouts are you at the moment and what time is it? 43 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:20,440 So I currently live in Utah in the United States and it is 5.30 at night. 44 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,240 So you would be in Monday still wouldn't you? 45 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,160 Yes, it is still Monday here. 46 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,680 That's the thing I find so fascinating about doing this is like the other day I was talking 47 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,320 to someone, yeah it was their night before, I don't usually get people that are ahead 48 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:42,360 of me just because where Australia is, we're sort of fairly close to the start of the day 49 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:43,360 I suppose. 50 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,440 Yeah but yeah I've had some fun ones, like yeah I don't know it's just I find it so fascinating 51 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:56,000 that we're all here but we're all existing in these different times. 52 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,000 And can we introduce your little visitor you've got sitting on your lap there if that's alright? 53 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:05,960 Yes so this is Millie my youngest and she just turned five months old and she can be 54 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,360 quite loud hopefully she'll not be too bad. 55 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,320 That's cool if she wants to get involved in the chat that's fine with me. 56 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:16,320 We love her. 57 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,320 Oh she's adorable. 58 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Oh I love that blue headband you've got on her head, it really brings out her eyes like 59 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:24,120 it's just gorgeous. 60 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,520 I know my sister-in-law gave it to me, she gave me two of them and I'm like oh I need 61 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,520 one in every colour they're so fun. 62 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:57,640 I love it. 63 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,720 Tell me how you got into your painting, is it something you've been doing for a long 64 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:03,720 time? 65 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:09,640 So yes and no I've been creative since I feel like everyone has been creative at some point 66 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,520 growing up as a kid like you have your crayons and all that so it was something I always 67 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:20,960 enjoyed and then it wasn't until I hit high school I had two really wonderful art teachers 68 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:28,480 that pushed me and also introduced me to loads of different mediums mostly wash of colour 69 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,480 and charcoal and coloured pencils were the main ones I did but I feel like in school 70 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:40,080 they kind of show you a bunch of different kinds but they were the ones who really were 71 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:45,640 like I think you have a knack for it like you could be really good if you wanted to 72 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,840 and of course I had my mom who was very like thought everything I did was amazing which 73 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:51,840 was very helpful. 74 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,320 Yeah very supportive and encouraging. 75 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,880 And so I just remember my one teacher in high school kind of pulled me aside one day and 76 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:05,840 he's like it doesn't matter what you do but always stay creative and so I thought in my 77 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:15,600 head I was like okay it's with me and I've always wanted to do it since then and then 78 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,400 in college or I guess is it university over there? 79 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,520 Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. 80 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:28,240 I decided to just take all of the art classes I possibly could so the way they have it over 81 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:34,280 here is you have for your first few years like classes that you're required to take 82 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:37,840 so you've got your maths and your english and all of that and then you get elective 83 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:42,440 classes where you get to choose what you would like to do so I just filled them up with as 84 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,720 many art classes as I possibly could because that's what I enjoyed the most and just had 85 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,080 a blast and that's where I learned how to do oil painting. 86 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:58,600 I had one oil painting class and I fell in love with it so primarily I oil paint at the 87 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:04,800 moment but I do get a little bit bored every once in a while where I can't just stick to 88 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,440 one thing so it's like I'll do a couple oil paintings and then I'm like oh I really want 89 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,240 to do a watercolor so then I'll I'll do that and then oh I really want to do a charcoal 90 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,040 so I kind of jump all over the place and I feel like that's also kind of the same with 91 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,760 my my subject matter too. 92 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:31,160 I love portraits yeah I really like like emotions and people and faces and but at the same time 93 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,560 you know there's those there's good landscapes and still lifes that I'm like oh just you 94 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,360 walk by and see things you're like oh I just I need to paint that or I need to draw that 95 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,320 and so I kind of I hop all over the place which is why if you go on my Instagram it's 96 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:51,120 very mixed there's not like one nice aesthetic it's just all over the place. 97 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,320 Yeah I always like a good challenge so yeah there'll be times I'll be like scrolling through 98 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Instagram or I'll be talking to someone and I'll see that someone do something I'm like 99 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:06,080 oh I want to try that I wonder if I can do that and so I think that's also something 100 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,000 else that just makes me not stick to one thing. 101 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah. 102 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,000 I just have to try it all. 103 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:38,680 I love that. 104 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:41,720 You sound like you've got a UK accent going on. 105 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:50,600 Yeah I'm originally from England and when I get nervous it comes out usually I've been 106 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,080 in the States for quite a long time and even my husband is like I can't hear it anymore 107 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,080 it's gone away yeah when I get nervous I guess it's still there. 108 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,680 You revert back to your day to. 109 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:07,520 So yeah when you first when you said watercolour for the first time I went hang on a second 110 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:13,160 I can hear something in there so whereabouts were you from in England? 111 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:19,640 So I was born in Luton just kind of right near London and then my mom was Irish and 112 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,120 so we also lived in I lived in Ireland for a few years as well in my younger years and 113 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,520 she was a single mom during the beginning portion of my younger years and then she got 114 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,400 remarried and so we moved to Texas because that's where her my stepdad was living at 115 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:41,040 the time and then we moved to Utah he got a job change and so that's kind of how we 116 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,560 moved around and so I've just stayed here. 117 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:48,280 So how long have you been in the US for? 118 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:56,600 Oh let's see I'll do some quick math I'm not great at math probably about I don't know 119 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:57,600 seven years maybe? 120 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:58,600 Yeah right. 121 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,600 I want to say it's been quite a while. 122 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,680 Yeah I love that you've still got your accent though I think that's pretty cool but my best 123 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:14,040 friend's Irish from Northern Ireland and she's been out here maybe 12 years 11 or 12 years 124 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,040 and she's still thick as like I still have times where I have to ask her to repeat myself 125 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,280 hello Helen if you're listening but and it sort of becomes a bit of a joke like what 126 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,280 did you say say that again? 127 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,200 That's great you know it's gonna be funny when my friends hear me over here they're 128 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,200 like what's wrong with you you sound nothing like you did before. 129 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,840 Yeah that's it isn't it it's all relative isn't it oh that's funny so um yeah back to 130 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,120 you sorry I got off track then but I do have a bit of a thing for accents so I sort of 131 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,840 that's another fun thing about chatting to people. 132 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:51,880 So um the style that you do is quite like representative of the object that you're painting 133 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,800 what do you call that style because I'm not very good at all that sort of technical form 134 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:56,800 jargon. 135 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:06,840 Honestly I don't really know I feel like slightly like it's contemporary realist thing like 136 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,960 I like I like realism but I also like to see a little bit of a painterly touch to it if 137 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:19,640 that makes sense so I don't yeah I don't I enjoy looking at other people's photo realism 138 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,600 but that's not for me I'm I don't know if I have the patience to learn all the technical 139 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:30,320 skills for that so I enjoy I don't know I think I would call it contemporary realism 140 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,560 but I don't even know if that's a thing so yeah no well that I mean that that'll give 141 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:38,200 people an idea when they're listening but it's like just having a look at the sort of 142 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,360 the different styles like different things you've the subjects I guess there's a there's 143 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:48,160 a gorgeous picture of a cow which I love that I mean I love cows yeah and this building 144 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:54,560 that you posted a lot of posts about what what building is that the building so I don't 145 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:02,520 know that is a temple for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints down here in Manzai 146 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:08,760 and so that is just part of my religion and it was actually the place that I got married 147 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:17,920 in and oh wow that's pretty spectacular yeah and my my husband's family they his I think 148 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,640 it's third great grandfather was the master mason for building the temple and so it has 149 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:52,760 a lot of family history connected to it and so yeah absolutely 150 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,080 is this your second child you've got this is my third your third oh my apologies third 151 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:08,360 I've got I've got three girls oh lovely that would keep you busy oh they do they do a whole 152 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:15,240 new world when you have little ones running around so what's the the age the ages of them 153 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:22,720 so my eldest is Shannon and she's five and then my middle is Oakley and she's three and 154 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,120 then Millie here is five months little Millie oh I love the name Oakley that's a really 155 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:36,160 that's a really cool name love that yeah we uh oh no oh bubba we uh had a funny story 156 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:41,080 with that with my husband we have a really hard time picking out names especially for 157 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:49,080 girls and of course we had all girls the one you know yeah those are the tough ones and 158 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:54,600 I I was just scrolling through I think I was on Pinterest actually just looking at different 159 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,720 names and I saw the name Oakley and I was like oh I kind of like that and I mean by 160 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,680 this point I was already like I don't know 30 some odd weeks pregnant like it's a long 161 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:10,120 time yeah it was coming close so we needed to make a decision and uh I turned to my husband 162 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,560 I was like I like this name Oakley he's like I suggested that at the beginning and oh you 163 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:20,360 like had you didn't say anything about it I'm like oh well I like it now I guess oh how 164 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:29,440 funny oh dude hello look at that gorgeous smile hey hey darling oh goodness I worked 165 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,880 in childcare for nine years and I was in the baby's room for most of that so and now I 166 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,720 work in kindergarten so I miss out on the all the baby snuggles so it's nice to see 167 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,640 the baby snuggles are the best they're my favorite 168 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,840 So throughout the time when you had have had your girls have you have you've been able 169 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,960 to maintain your art practice? 170 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:23,160 I guess I should say it was different I guess I should say that it stopped it was just different 171 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:34,080 and came in waves yeah I feel like when I had my first after you know after a month 172 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:40,840 or so we kind of got in a little bit more of a rhythm and I was able to set aside like 173 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:47,760 okay I'm gonna wake up an hour earlier and focus on myself and have an hour of painting 174 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,920 and get that done and that was really helpful for me but I discovered the more kids you 175 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:59,960 have the less you can plan it is so difficult to plan when you have three little minds completely 176 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:08,280 different to yours and I don't know I feel like but I do feel like I have learned from 177 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:15,320 having kids that not to waste time like I'm really good at not wasting my time when I 178 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,920 have like oh I've got an hour that I can spend I could tell you exactly what I was gonna 179 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,880 do with that hour right now whereas I feel like before I had kids I'd be like oh I've 180 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:34,600 got all day I don't have work today so I can just you know I'll watch a show or maybe sleep 181 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,000 in I'll do this and then by the time I got around to him like oh it's too late now like 182 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,600 I should be going to bed and so I feel like I'm a lot better now with time management 183 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:52,360 but I just have less time to work with so yeah yeah it kind of you know it just depends 184 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,640 it does help sometimes having like I'll bring the kids in with me into my my little space 185 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:03,560 and I'll set them up with their paints or their colors and that works out it works out 186 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,200 decent however you don't get to get like in the zone because I don't know if you've been 187 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:14,040 around little kids but they ask questions all day long and it's like I've answered that 188 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:19,720 question 50 times but I will answer it again for you yeah and now give me five minutes 189 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,280 so yeah that's it isn't it yeah but I feel like there's a difference between getting 190 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:30,440 just time to yourself and also spending time with your kids doing your your craft yeah it's 191 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,640 sort of like only half your your brain can work on what you want to do because they're there and 192 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,360 you're sort of conscious of what they're up to and like you said the questions and they seem to you 193 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:45,800 know their patience runs out so much quicker and you know it's like you just yeah like you said you 194 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,720 can't get in that in that flow of letting letting yourself go but but that's but that's a really 195 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,520 common thing that people say you know and I often say like when I didn't have kids I don't know what 196 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:04,440 the hell I did with my time like I must have wasted so much time seriously I know yeah I 197 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:11,640 I hear when my I have two younger sisters and I think back to when I was their age I'm like 198 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:21,560 like what did I do with myself like yeah yeah I don't know yeah yeah that's not a whole answer 199 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,360 but I I have no idea what I did because there's so many things I want to do now that I can't do and 200 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:41,720 oh yeah you know what it's worth it 201 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:06,040 So something I like to talk to my mums about is sort of the identity of you know when you're just 202 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:11,080 you just yourself or you know with your partner and then you become a mum did you have sort of 203 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:18,680 any sort of I don't know tricky emotions to work through when you changed to become a mum or were 204 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:26,360 you did you sort of flow through really you know effortlessly I guess I mean I think it depends on 205 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:35,320 the day because I feel like yes definitely there was an identity difference but I was lucky in that 206 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:41,960 growing up I always wanted to be a mum and so it was something I almost wanted to do more than my 207 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:48,920 art and I think that is helpful because I'm like I know that there's a time in a season with my 208 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,360 girls at this age and that at some point you know they're going to be in school and I'm going to 209 00:19:54,360 --> 00:20:02,360 have that time back again so I think I think in that way it wasn't too hard but I mean you do get 210 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:07,880 those days when you just don't feel like yourself and you're like I just I wish this day could just 211 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:14,600 be me creating with no one else bothering me and I mean I feel like everyone's going to have a hard 212 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:21,720 day sometime but the majority of the days I feel like no I'm doing what I want to be doing and 213 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:27,320 yeah there will be will be time so yeah that's it it's a good way of looking at it like I um 214 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,800 I was actually at a function on Saturday night and there were some people there whose daughter's just 215 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:37,480 turned 20 and got a license and now they have no children to run around or take to places and 216 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,600 they're like what do we do with ourselves now and I'm like that will come you know that's because 217 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,800 my kids are seven and 15 so at some point in my life I won't have to do that and then I'll go oh 218 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:54,360 my gosh this is my time now so yeah it's like don't don't stress too much because you know it's coming 219 00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:09,800 yeah yeah absolutely 220 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,240 um 221 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,960 with you creating and with the girls um something else I love to talk to my mums about is this 222 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:33,240 concept of mum guilt and I've sort of put that in air quotes because I don't know it's a it's a 223 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,600 made-up name I guess to that describes a lot of really deep and complex feelings it's not just 224 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:46,600 as simple as you know hashtag mum guilt um yeah what are your thoughts on that so I 100% have mum 225 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:53,960 guilt or whatever we want to call it and I think that's probably my number one struggle as a mom 226 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,640 is just dealing with the emotions of feeling like oh I should be doing other things I should be with 227 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:07,240 my children um I feel like for me it it almost clicks like as soon as I'm feeling happy about 228 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:12,600 something it's like as soon as I'm enjoying what I'm doing I'm instantly like oh should I not be 229 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,960 enjoying myself right now there's a pile of wash that needs to be done or I haven't played any 230 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:23,000 games like children today or and it kind of it's just in the back of your head and it never goes 231 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:31,160 away um and I I do have I do struggle with trying to figure out when it's okay to be like no this is 232 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:38,760 me time I can focus on myself and do my craft right now and then also yes I have two weeks of 233 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,720 wash that's in the laundry room and I've got dishes piled up and the floors are a mess and 234 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:51,640 my kids are eating snacks off the floor I should probably stop and yeah you know like yeah yeah 235 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:58,040 it's I have yet to figure out like the best oh uh is it possible I don't know 236 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,880 oh that's the thing I feel like yeah I feel like getting it right and and that's also in 237 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,640 air quotes too because I don't I don't think there is a right or wrong it's just whatever 238 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,840 suits but it's really hard to get that balance constantly like I feel like sometimes you feel 239 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,480 like it's going really good and then other times like the scales tip in this the other direction 240 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,520 you go oh hang on a sec like that's literally me right now I've got so much washing to do 241 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,760 so much tidying to do and I'm like actually I don't want to do that now I want to do this 242 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:37,960 oh it was it was like me last night I was so I was so on top of it last night because I knew 243 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,920 that I had this podcast and I was so excited about it that I was like I'm gonna clean my living room 244 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,800 my kitchen while the kids are in bed and then tomorrow I can just focus and look at my notes 245 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:53,480 and it's gonna be so smooth and so great never think you have a plan when you have kids you just 246 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,600 can't because I woke up in the morning well I woke up about eight times last night well I think it 247 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,000 was really only six but it felt like a lot because my little Millie who's usually a really good 248 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,440 sleeper and sleeps through the night decided last night was the night to wake up and then 249 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:16,840 I woke up really tired but I'm like oh you know what it's fine because I I cleaned and I was like 250 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,880 the only thing I have to do today is clean the girls playroom because let's be honest it probably 251 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,680 been about two months since I had cleaned it and it was a little bit disastrous so if I'm gonna 252 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,960 bring stuff in here to record I need to have it clean but I was like that's grand and so I 253 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:39,240 told my eldest I was like Shannon the only thing I need to do today is clean the playroom downstairs 254 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:46,520 and have you girls keep upstairs tidy as well and so she's like okay and then she ran off and I 255 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,800 started getting ready I was feeling so proud of myself for just like being on top of it and like 256 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,440 oh it was eight in the morning and I was dressed and I was getting you know like I was on top of 257 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:03,960 it today yeah and then of course she comes running in and goes mom mom I have a surprise for you 258 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:12,040 I'm thinking okay I mean usually her surprises are like oh I tidied up the toys in the living 259 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,200 room or I helped my sister put on her shoe you know they're usually good surprises 260 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,520 so I'm not you know I'm like great thank you I'm gonna finish getting ready and then I would love 261 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,520 to see your surprise yeah and then she leaves and then I keep getting ready and then she comes back 262 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:33,560 again she's like are you ready yeah I'm ready to show you my surprise and I'm like well okay um not 263 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:40,360 yet just give me one minute she's like it's either gonna be a good surprise but it could be a bad 264 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:47,080 surprise oh no I hope it's a good surprise because you I don't for the most part they're good 265 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,200 surprises she hardly ever gives me bad ones so I'm like okay just give me a minute but she was so 266 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,000 excited to tell me so I'm like for sure she's done something great because she's so excited 267 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,520 so excited finished getting ready and I call out and I'm like hey Shannon I'm ready for your surprise 268 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,880 and she's like I'm downstairs like oh did she start cleaning because I told her I really wanted 269 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,000 to clean and that would be like so sweet of her because you know she's so nice and I come down 270 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,080 the stairs and the door of the playroom is closed and I'm like let's never close wonder why she 271 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:28,280 closed it and I open the door and we have this it's like a shelving unit that's like steps that you 272 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:37,000 can store toys inside and I don't know if you've seen them yet and so as I open the door she is 273 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:44,360 standing proudly on the top part of this cabinet and all of the buckets have been taken out and 274 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:53,800 dumped all over the floor oh she just looks at me with pure joy I've destroyed the place 275 00:26:54,360 --> 00:27:04,200 just so proud of herself and I'm like Shannon oh lord I wanted to clean and she's like are you so 276 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:13,320 proud of my surprise I'm not proud of your surprise oh it's not a good surprise but you know I feel 277 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,360 like that's just what it's like having kids yes you feel like you're on top of it and then they 278 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:24,920 have to do something to show you no mom you're not on top of it I'm in charge today and let me 279 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:31,080 show you how I feel about that so I mean I love that story oh Shannon they're fabulous 280 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:40,680 but man they can be tough sometimes oh goodness oh she was helping wasn't she yeah 281 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,920 yeah and she did tell me she did tell me she's like I'll help you clean it up it's okay and then I'm 282 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,440 like okay that would be nice and as I'm cleaning she's like just in a minute and then she'd like 283 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,000 pull more stuff out as I'm cleaning and I'm like Shannon we're trying to clean up and she's like 284 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,360 yes but I'm making a soup and then she would like keep making a soup and then eventually we got the 285 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:07,880 whole room clean and she's like see didn't I do such a good job cleaning that up mom and I was 286 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:14,840 like I did a good job cleaning that up thank you you did a great job making more mess and making 287 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:22,840 so it was okay oh my gosh I love that yeah you literally you never know what you're gonna get 288 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,640 you literally you never know what you're gonna get do you like I feel like that it's sort of like 289 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,440 the story like you know when you're about to go to work and your car doesn't start like I feel like 290 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,520 that's parenting all the time but with your children like there's always something just gonna 291 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:43,240 get thrown at you yeah 100% and it's always when you least expect it when you think you've got it 292 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,120 that's when it yes yeah it's like it lulls you into this false sense of security it's like 293 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:54,440 hmm no now we're gonna wreck it yeah oh god and then they keep coming they're just more and more 294 00:28:54,440 --> 00:29:06,840 you know yeah oh man it wears you out doesn't it 295 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:14,200 so 296 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,240 you're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom I was so 297 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,560 do you have family nearby where you are like to help out with the girls 298 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,920 I do yes so um my I have my mom and my stepdad and my two younger sisters and they live 299 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:42,120 about 30 40 minute drive from our house so they're really close and then my husband all of his family 300 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:50,360 live in Utah and so most of them are about an hour away but still close when we need them so yeah 301 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:58,200 oh that's great isn't it yeah yeah we've got good support there yeah that's comes in handy my mom's 302 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:05,560 the best what does your mom think now like because you said before she really encouraged your like 303 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,320 when you made things when you were little like is she like look at what you do now and is like 304 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:15,160 super proud of that you've been able to keep doing it oh yeah I mean I think so she's all she I mean 305 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:22,840 is she allowed to say that I'm doing terrible I don't know she never does not to you she's she I 306 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:28,520 mean anything I do she's like oh I think that's amazing and of course growing up I think I don't 307 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:34,120 know if it was my last years of high school or when I was in college I painted a few paintings 308 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:39,560 for fun and she bought them she was the first person to really buy some of my paintings and 309 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,800 I'm sure it was for way more than they were actually worth but it made me feel so good inside 310 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,920 that someone wanted to purchase my art instead of just look at it and I think that really that 311 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:55,240 really helped and so lots of times when I'm feeling down on myself I can uh I'll give her a ring and 312 00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:03,160 ask for her advice or for her her love and support because she's more than happy to give it um yeah 313 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:10,040 today my Shannon again uh I decided to ask her because I was like wouldn't it be nice for the 314 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:16,920 podcast to have like this really sweet story of like asking my kids like oh like how do you feel 315 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,360 about mom and her art and what kind of moment or am I you know because yeah yeah I just thought 316 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:28,520 oh it'd be so nice and so I asked Shannon and I was like what kind of mom do you think I am like 317 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,840 do you you know I was like am I doing a good job you know kind of yeah she looks at me she goes 318 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:41,880 you're just a really frustrated mom all the time that was not what I was going for Shannon oh 319 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:50,200 my gosh maybe she didn't understand it so I'm like what about like that I do art and that I'm kind of 320 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,840 creative and I I teach you things do you like do you like doing art with me do you like my art 321 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,400 what do you think of that and she's like well to be honest the last one you did I didn't really like 322 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:07,640 and I just didn't want to tell you because you seem to really like it thank you oh my gosh 323 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:15,640 she will forever be honest she's such a character isn't she yeah she's so funny she's so funny 324 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,760 I feel like we need to have like a section of this podcast dedicated to Shannon she's like earned her place 325 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:31,000 yeah oh I love her yeah but that's the thing like I love I love this this idea that you know 326 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,600 we are as mothers we have this mothering role but we still have all these things 327 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,720 that we do apart from that and that we did do before we had kids so it doesn't just stop you 328 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,360 know all of a sudden we have a baby and this part of our lives just disappears into thin air so 329 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,880 I think it's I don't know that holding on to that part of yourself and that identity 330 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,240 I think is so important and Shannon's obviously seen it to be able to give her critique 331 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:07,400 she gave me a piece of advice as well today where she was like it would be better if I could do it 332 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,520 with you but sometimes you don't let me and I don't like that so I think she just wants to be more 333 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:21,000 involved and yeah you know which is easy to say a little bit more difficult to do with you know 334 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:28,040 yeah you're doing these um very detailed and yes yeah oh goodness 335 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:51,480 now it sounds like a lot of fun in your house it is it's a bit of a madhouse but I wouldn't change it 336 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:13,000 so online I noticed that you you sell like your prints and that sort of stuff do you have um 337 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:17,640 and like you mentioned about your mum your mum purchasing you some of your early stuff that you 338 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:24,040 made do you sort of have this idea about the value of your your art or the value of your 339 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:32,040 your creativity that it's dependent on what you get for it or that society can still value art 340 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:38,920 even if it doesn't have a monetary value attached to it um that's a good question I think 341 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:47,480 I don't know I feel like deep in me I'm a little bit of a people pleaser so I feel like when 342 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:54,760 when I do sell a work of art I get very excited especially because I don't sell very many I'm I 343 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,400 don't have a whole lot of time and when I do do commissions they usually take me anywhere from 344 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,720 like six to eight months to complete because I don't have a lot of time to work on them so 345 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:15,160 those I do like I don't know it does make me happy however I do feel like um almost more so when I 346 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:22,280 someone sees a work that I've done or when they purchase it and then they tell me how they feel 347 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:30,440 about it like it makes it 10 times better like I would much rather have someone look at my work 348 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,800 and say that really affected me or changed my life or really touched me then I would sell the 349 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,680 work to someone that I don't even know if they appreciate it if that makes sense so yeah so I do 350 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:50,040 I do feel like there's um I don't know there's a lot of worth in just the work without it being 351 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:59,960 sold however it does you know I do like when it gets sold yeah yeah yeah no I could like a lady 352 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:05,720 I spoke to the other day um put it really well said like as artists we sort of exist to be able 353 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:12,440 to share and and like whatever things that have influenced or things we're going through that we 354 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:18,840 put into our work it's so lovely if someone at the other end can relate to that in their own way um 355 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:36,120 and then if they tell you about it that's even better you know yeah 100% agree with that yeah 356 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,120 yeah 357 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,600 did you notice after you had your girls after you became a mum that what influenced your work changed 358 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:06,520 I mean yes yes it did there was an influence however I also feel like I have so many ideas 359 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,840 of things that would show that a lot more I feel like in the work that's on my instagram 360 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:19,000 there isn't a lot that's child related or any I don't know you know what I'm talking about 361 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:25,080 anything like that however I have like I do have a picture of my girls that I've started painting 362 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:32,920 that I just love and I love the idea of kids when they like discover new things like my 363 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:38,440 littlest Millie here the other day found her toes and we she was just sitting just sitting in the 364 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,400 bumbo just in like a little seat on my counter just playing with her toes and she was just so 365 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,240 full of wonder and I'm like that would be just the perfect little like little picture of just 366 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:55,320 her toes and her her cuteness and there's I don't know just when like kids go outside and they see 367 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,720 I don't know birds or something my my middle child Oakley the other day we were on a drive 368 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,080 and she was like birds I see birds there's two of them and she was just so thrilled at the idea of 369 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:14,280 seeing birds I'm like I would love to capture just that happiness and that wonder of that just that 370 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,400 that excitement so I feel like somewhere down the line there's going to be some works of mine that 371 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:29,720 encompass just childhood wonder because I really I really enjoy that and I think also with some of my 372 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,840 my religious pieces I have a few of those that I would like to work on and just to kind of share 373 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,440 that with my girls and have that feeling in our household and share that with the world too would 374 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:48,760 be would be really nice so yeah absolutely I feel like that because like I said I worked in in early 375 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,960 childhood for a long time and that moment when kids discover something it's just this just when 376 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,360 you were telling me about it then I was getting that that beautiful like warm feeling and almost 377 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:04,040 like goosebumps like it's just I think as adults we just we've seen it all we take it all for granted 378 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,960 and then when you're brought back to those minuscule tiny moments like toes you just it blows your mind 379 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:17,640 and just it's wonderful yeah I love it I think we need to have more moments like that where we just 380 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:27,800 stop and look at our toes and go oh my god the world's amazing yeah especially in this busy busy world 381 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,560 yeah and that's it isn't it and then you know we've got all these distractions and things that 382 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:37,480 are there to take our time up and you can we can sort of lose track of what's just you know the most 383 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,400 important stuff no it's right in front of us and sometimes we don't see it 384 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,200 sorry I'm getting all philosophical now 385 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,440 by the way I love the way you said grand before because my Irish friends say grand all the time 386 00:39:54,440 --> 00:40:00,360 oh that's grand they say oh I love it probably my mom and me 387 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,360 yeah no I love that 388 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,360 I love that 389 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,800 so have you got any pieces that you're working on anything you want to share about future works or 390 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:33,560 anything at all so I mean I have really a lot of work to do and I'm really excited about it and 391 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:40,520 I'm looking forward to it I'm looking forward to getting to do some of my own books or anything at all 392 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:50,200 so I mean I have my one painting that you can see on my Instagram of a pioneer lady and for 393 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:58,360 for me with that painting I really wanted to kind of symbolize the strength of women and just um 394 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:06,840 the Mormon pioneers. I won't go into detail about it, but basically they came across the 395 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:13,400 plains in hand carts during all types of weather and faced lots of hardships to arrive in Utah and 396 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:22,280 eventually, you know, make their city and live and, what's the word I'm looking for, 397 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:30,920 have their religion as they wanted to. But there's so many stories about just how strong those 398 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,600 women were and what they went through. And I mean, they had children and family members who passed 399 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:44,840 away and there was, I don't know, there's just a lot for me that I look up to in the pioneer women. 400 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,480 And I just wanted to, I don't know, I just wanted to kind of capture that in a painting. And I don't 401 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:56,680 think I'm there yet. I still feel like there's a few things that I need to add or do, but that is 402 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:03,160 the main one that I'm working on is just, I want to paint a strong, powerful woman who's been through 403 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:10,840 a lot, but also knows she's doing it for a purpose. So that's my main one. And then, 404 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:18,200 I don't know, I had an idea the other day from a friend to do with my kids. She showed me 405 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,760 someone painting a little, one of their little kids stuffed animals and all of my girls have a 406 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:30,360 little stuffed animal that they just adore. In fact, they're kind of my eldest elder too, 407 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,600 they're kind of torn to pieces. They get chewed on and they were loved. I mean, honestly, 408 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,480 they're a little bit gross for anyone except for my girls, right? I'm like, how sweet would that be 409 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:46,680 just to have all three of them on a shelf just to represent my children? And we'll see, but 410 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,800 you know, got to get through this other one first. 411 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,880 That's the thing when you've got so many ideas, it's like literally, 412 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,840 yeah, you've got to actually have the time to do all these ideas. 413 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,320 Yeah, well, I have a page in my sketchbook of like, oh, this is something I want to paint, 414 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,960 this is something I want to paint or draw. And there's a whole long list of them. I will never 415 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:15,320 be out of ideas. I just need a bit more time. Yeah, not short of ideas. I love that. 416 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,280 Is it important to you that they see you as more than in your mothering role? And I don't say just 417 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,080 a mum, I've got to stop saying that because we're not just a mum. But yeah, more of them the mothering 418 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:59,880 role. Yes, I think anytime you can show your kids how you can be your own person, but also 419 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:11,400 be a mum at the same time. I have an aunt who growing up, she was also a young mother and then 420 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,800 also did art. And I came to stay with her for a little while and she showed me her portfolio. 421 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,680 And I was just amazed at her skill and her talent and how she was still able to, 422 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:27,400 you know, paint and draw and do the things she loved and also still have kids because I was like, 423 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,760 that's what I want to be doing. And so it was nice to have someone to look up to, to be like, 424 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,280 no, she can do it, I can do it too. And so I think it is good. Even if my children 425 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:45,080 don't end up into art or don't want to be creative in something, I think just showing them that 426 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,280 you don't have to be just one thing in your life. You can be a multitude of things, I think is 427 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,640 important. Yeah, that's very well said. I like that. Because I think it doesn't have to be a 428 00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:00,360 thing in particular, like you said, doesn't, they don't have to take it on, but it's, it's saying 429 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:07,080 that mums can do lots and lots of different things and things that don't necessarily revolve around 430 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,560 that mothering role. Yeah, for sure. As I was, I don't know what question it was, as I was going 431 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:19,480 through some stuff, I got thinking about myself, I think it was talking about like identity maybe, 432 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:25,960 and just that there's my one aunt always tells me, she's like, there's a time in a season that, 433 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:31,480 you know, right now you're raising your children and that's a beautiful, wonderful thing. And then 434 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,480 later you're going to have an amazing time doing your art or whatever it is you'd like to do. 435 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:42,920 And so I got thinking about how I sometimes feel, feel bad that, or like feel like I'm missing out 436 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,400 because I haven't gotten myself out there. Like you scroll through Instagram or social media and 437 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:53,240 you see like all of these moms doing it and more like accomplishing what you want to, but, or even 438 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:59,240 people that aren't moms just, you know, being out there and doing things. And I think sometimes I 439 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:05,400 get down on myself thinking like, Oh man, like, did I, did I mess up somewhere? Did I, you know, 440 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:12,120 did I have kids too early? But then I realized like, I'm not, I'm not ruining my chances by having, 441 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,720 by having kids. Cause there's still going to be, there's still going to be time. And I heard this 442 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:26,600 analogy that it was, it was talking about how being creative is kind of like exercise. And it's like, 443 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:35,000 it's preferable every day to exercise. I mean, if we could, it would be really great, wouldn't it? 444 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:42,200 But it's not like a must has to be done. You have to exercise. And if you went to the doctor and 445 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:48,440 you said, I am so sorry. It's been two years since I've exercised. I'm just going to quit because I 446 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:56,520 can't do it anymore. I've forgotten how to do it. I'm done. Like, I'm sorry. I've given up. I can't 447 00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:03,480 do it. No doctor is going to be like, you're right. You haven't done, you haven't exercised in two 448 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,600 years or five years or 10 years. You can't exercise anymore. It will not be good for you. I mean, 449 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,120 that would just be, that would be ridiculous. So it's the same way with, with your craft, whatever 450 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:20,920 it is that you choose to do. Like it doesn't matter if you've had a 10 year break, if you said, 451 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,800 Hey, I have children and I want to raise them and I haven't done it in 10 years. You can always start 452 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:33,720 back again. You can always do a little thing. Even just five minutes here and there, it's only going 453 00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:39,960 to make you better. It's not going to be any worse for you than just leaving it behind. 454 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:47,320 Cause I feel like at one point when I had my first daughter, I didn't paint for a really long time 455 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:54,440 because I just couldn't find time for it. And I just, you know, it's difficult because you're 456 00:47:54,440 --> 00:48:00,440 getting used to a whole new life with a little baby. And I thought to myself, is this it? Should 457 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:08,680 I be, should I be done? Like, should I give it up? And that's just silly. I eventually learned like 458 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:16,360 I go crazy if I don't paint. Like I, I can't not be creative. And when I try, I just, it's like, 459 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,680 I'm about to explode. I get in this big bubble and then I'm like, I give up and just everything, 460 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:25,720 you know, it kind of all goes to pot. And then I just, I spend all day painting and 461 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,920 the house becomes a mess. And my husband wonders what happens. And I'm like, I'm sorry. It had been 462 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:39,960 too long. He's so nice. He understands that some days that's how it's going to be. But anyway, 463 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,800 but yeah, I just really liked that. It's like, it's just like exercise. Even if you've left it 464 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:49,960 for a long time, you could always go back to it. And so what there will be days when you'll get 465 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,120 you'll get, you won't do anything, but then there'll be other days where you'll get in the zone and 466 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:59,160 get lots of work done and it'll be great. Yeah. No, I love that. That's really good. I've never 467 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,280 heard anyone put it quite like that. That's really good. Love that. And I think it's so true. And a 468 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:10,200 lot of moms say this, if, if they're not filled up, you know, the cups not filled up, the metaphor, 469 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,920 you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. If you haven't done the things that make you regulated 470 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:20,680 and fulfilled, then you're not going to go out into your family and project, you know, perhaps 471 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,800 the person that you want to be. So it is so important to do these things for ourselves. And 472 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:31,080 it just makes for an all rounder, you know, more harmonious household, I guess. 473 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:40,520 Until Shannon does something in the play. I've just got a vision in my head of your daughter. 474 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:47,240 I just love that. Oh, I do. Little Jim. Thank you so much for coming on Hannah. I loved your chat 475 00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:53,480 today. It's been gorgeous meeting little Miss Millie here. Hey, little darling. Thank you for 476 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:59,320 having me. I feel really special that you let me join. I was going through all your podcasts and 477 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,240 listening to all of these other wonderful women and their stories. And I'm like, I don't think I 478 00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:09,960 have anything to add on these people. Oh my gosh. No, you have so much to add. They have such good 479 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:17,640 information. Oh, no, no, it was never feel like that. You've got so much to add. And honestly, 480 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:25,240 that imposter syndrome too, you know, oh, yes. Yeah. Kick it to the curb. There you go. Bye bye. 481 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:33,560 Imposter syndrome. Yeah. No, good on you. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've 482 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:39,560 enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to 483 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:45,480 the podcast or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. If you or someone you 484 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,040 know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the 485 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:57,720 show notes. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alem Joe, which is my new age 486 00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:03,080 ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. 487 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:09,160 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. I'll catch you again 488 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,400 next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Andrea Rees Australian mixed media visual artist + creativity coach S2 Ep47 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts My guest today is Andrea Rees, a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East Corrimal, NSW, and a mum of 2 boys. Originally from Vancouver, Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20 to study mixed media, her main mediums being photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating Andrea spent 4 years in advertising in account management. After realising it was not filling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher. After her 2nd son was born, ongoing health concerns meant that the ongoing level of support that he needed guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art, and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for mums who are searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through, who lost themselves in their motherhood, and can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chat about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her first child and the joy Andrea takes from supporting other mums. And the ever popular topic, the value we as society place on art, and the people who make it. **This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD and a childhood chromosome disorder** Andrea links / Instagram / Creative Village Facebook page Podcast website / Instagram MakeShift Creative See the painting my son Digby helped me complete When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you here. My guest today is Andrea Reyes. Andrea is a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East caramel in New South Wales, and she's a mom of two boys. Originally from Vancouver in Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20. To study mixed media, her main mediums been photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating, Andrew spent four years in advertising in account management, after realizing it was not feeling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher after his second son was born. Health Concerns meant the ongoing level of support he needed, guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for moms who are seeking and searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through those who have lost themselves in motherhood, they can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chatted about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her fifth child. And the joy Andrea takes from supporting other moms and the ever popular topic, the value where society plays on it, and the people who make it. This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD, and childhood chromosome disorder. Welcome to the podcast today, Andrea, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You're in Sydney. Yes. So your accents, not from Sydney. We're events. So originally, I'm from Vancouver, Canada. And I've got an Australian father and a Canadian mom raised me in Vancouver. And then when I was 20, I took off and finished my degree of Visual Arts at Sydney Uni and just wanted to do something different. So yeah, that's it. Awesome. So you mentioned visual arts tell us what you do what you create. So I'm a mixed media artist. And I'm also a coach for moms who want to find their creativity. So my main medium is photography and painting. Drawing. And my major at uni was ceramics. So I really love ceramics, but it's just a bit of a harder medium to work with when you don't have the equipment. And it's kind of like a three stage process. So yeah, it's a lot more a lot more. More complex. That's why I think I've fallen really into photography and stuff because it's much more accessible and workable in motherhood. Yeah, for sure. So let's go back to the beginning. How did you first get into all these different types of creative? Oh, I guess I'm just through high school and my parents put me in ceramics from the age of 10. Just in our neighborhood. There's a lady who was doing it out of her garage, a mum and yet I did some workshops like a raccoon horse and stuff like that when I was young, just loved clay and then went through to college and like, just before and to uni and and yeah, you you do your foundational year where you kind of have a try of everything and yeah, I just really loved photography and in high school I just I loved the darkroom so much. And yeah, I was really fortunate that we had one in our school and yeah, I think it just sort of just developed it definitely was just a creative kid. And like, I remember days when it would be raining and mum would pull out like a paint by number set for me. And I just work on it at the dining table. And I just loved that sort of thing. So yes, over the years it kind of built and built and yeah, then yeah, did my degree and yeah, I just really, yeah, I loved ceramics at Sydney, uni. And, yeah, it was just, it was just really unfortunate. When I came out of there. I just had this concept in my head because I did clay that why can't do it now. Because I don't have the money. I don't have the materials. I don't have the equipment. So what am I going to do? So I kind of Yeah, stepped away for it for many years, which was now I look back and I think that's so sad. I lost so many years not being able to create. Yeah, but I think with everything you you create, like, everyone's creative, and I think you you express your creativity somehow, some way, you know, and I probably that's when I probably fell more into photography, because it was accessible. And I could use it all the time. Hmm, yeah. Did you sort of decide you were going to make a life with art, I suppose that it was going to be what you did? Mmm hmm. Yeah, I just kept coming back to it. And so after uni, I because I had this idea in my head that I couldn't continue with ceramics. I was like, you know, I'm an adult. I'm in the big world, like, how am I going to make money and but I still obviously, I'm interested in the arts. So I went into advertising, and I sort of fell into account management. And it just was not filling my creative cup enough. It was very administrative. And I liked working with the designers and stuff. But even a lot of them were really like, not super, you know, they they just said it was kind of making art for other people. It was what they wanted. Even the end decision was like the clients choice, obviously, some so they could be really creative with it, but it usually didn't fly. So yeah. So yeah, so I left advertising after four years. And then I decided to sort of my husband and I were going to settle down. So we moved down this way from Sydney. And then I studied at Wollongong, uni and did my Graduate Diploma of education. So became a high school art teacher. So yeah, that was kind of always my dream. And like growing up, I always thought I would be a great teacher. And yeah, it was I was kind of making that happen now. So I was at a good time in my life where you were going to start a family and stuff, and I thought this will be a good job for me. Yeah, but yeah, it's just funny, like just reflecting back and thinking about it, that there's just such a, you know, an idea in society that arts just not like the pathway to go for stability. And, you know, which is just so sad, because now being on the other side of that, I think it's totally up to you, like you're fully in control of making that happen. So yeah, it's just I think you just feel really unsupported along that journey. In Yeah, in society. So. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that a lot of conversations I've had lately with mums have been around the value, and I mean, monetary value that we place on the arts. And a lot of it sort of has become really evident, I think with the shutdowns through the COVID time, like, all the footy clubs going and all the footy players were traveling across the borders, but there were all these restrictions, so no one could put on their shows like, you know, visual artists, performance, anything like that all shut down. It's like, well hang on a minute, like, every time you turn the radio on or the TV or, you know, you're watching a streaming service, everything's been made by a Creator by an artist and it's, I think it I hope people sort of woke up to that. People on the other side of the You know, yeah, the value of the arts in society is actually so huge. And it really makes our, it allows us to connect. It really makes our world like so much more interesting than if. Yeah, like, we went through a period of like two years where we just locked it down and how sad and people really, you know, struggled and suffered in that time. Like, just even just live music. Like, I don't think I realized how much I enjoyed going to live music and I'm not like a huge live music. You know, follower. I don't kind of, you know. Yeah. But, um, but I definitely, yeah, I enjoy it. And when bands come to town and stuff for gigs, yeah, play locally. Like, I love live music. So yeah, yeah. It's been an interesting time. Do you have an eye opener? So you've got some children? Can you share a little bit about them? Yes. So I've got two boys. So yeah, I think this is when my, like, I came around to my art and creativity was actually from motherhood. So my first boy is five years old now. So he's just starting kindergarten this year. So I feel like it's developing more and more as they grow up. But yeah, he's off to school. And my youngest is three now. So he's at daycare this year, three days a week. So he was two days last year. So yeah, it's exciting, because I'm just getting a little bit more time where I can do awesome stuff like this, and coaching and work on creating and art shows and stuff like that. So yeah, it's exciting. What's developing? Hmm. So going back to when maybe when it wasn't, so I wouldn't say exciting. I have so much time. How did you go? Sort of continuing to be able to create when you Oh, first child? Yeah. So um, I guess. So with my first child, I had a, I had a great pregnancy, like, I thought I was gonna be a really, I wasn't gonna thrive as a pregnant woman. But I actually just have absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed being pregnant my first time. But then I ended up having a traumatic birth and I had a really bad birth. So that was just, I think, such a shock to my husband and I, what we went through, and just such a poor start to parenthood. And then he had a lot of complications like reflux and food intolerances and that sort of thing. So we struggled, like in that first year, a lot just trying to survive. And then I really lost myself, I just thought the way to go with motherhood is like you devote your you know, just, you know, devote yourself to your kid, and, you know, give them everything you've got. And yeah, really depleted myself and lost my identity. And then it actually was a friend, another art teacher, an artist and a teacher, who I studied with, and we've worked together and stuff since that, she kind of approached me and was like, there's this art show coming up. I really think like, You should do it with me. And I was just like, oh, no, I can't do that. Like, oh, I think it was like, in three months time or something. And she was like, Yeah, you, you know, you could easily, you know, work on this on the weekends or something. And she just talked to me realistically, like, kind of make making these excuses that she doesn't have children. And I kind of thought, Oh, you don't know, because you don't have kids yet or what it's like, but what she was saying was making a lot of sense. Like I was just making these excuses. That completely didn't make any sense. And so I said, Yeah, you're right, actually, I could, I could go and photograph that. And then I could, you know, I could get it printed, and then I could start to put it on to it was plywood that we were working on. And I could probably lay that down and she offered to come and help me and everything. She was so supportive, great friend. And I thought Yeah, I can do this. Like I can totally do this. And then I ended up Yeah, I just I was so blown away by the result I got that I was so excited by it. And I felt amazing. Like through the process, I was like, This is me this is like, I've found myself again. And like, I was just, yeah, so happy that I was still mothering and but yet I was creating and being myself and I had this like, wonderful balance. And so after that, I entered another show, and I ended up making us at all, I'll just do one artwork again. And then I ended up producing for it was so that was great. I really loved it. Yeah. And then that's kind of been the way I've just continued. And she's been there along beside me saying, you know, what do you think about this? Like, should we enter this again? And yeah, she's been such a wonderful friend they fell pregnant again, we kind of got to a stage where we felt like things were manageable and easier. And, and yeah, we our son was kind of at the age where we wanted to add our second child, we wanted to have two kids. So we had our second child, that pregnancy was okay. Not as easy as the first but it was okay. birth was completely controlled planned, Cesar, because we were just so terrified of something happening again. But then, probably three months after he was born, we started realizing that he had a lot of complications, health concerns and stuff. And he wasn't thriving, and was so confusing, and really, really difficult time. And basically, it went on and on every month, there was something new going on. Something new popped up. That wasn't good. And you Yeah, I kind of had seen so many specialists and doctors and talked to so many people and everyone kept telling me to, you know, stop worrying and that you're you know, he'll he'll catch up because he was delayed and stuff. And all these red flags that were going off there was saying Don't worry about it, you know, it's nothing, nothing severe or anything. And anyway, by a year and a half, and neurologists said to me, you've kind of exhausted every avenue and do you want to do genetic testing? And I said, Yes, I want to do genetic testing, if that, you know, confirms anything. And so sure enough, it came back that he's got a chromosome disorder. So yeah, that was kind of like a huge relief, a bit, you know, difficult as well. But we finally had an answer to what was going on. And yeah, so he's got he's got some difficulties physically and mentally and like growth wise and stuff like that. So yeah, it just kind of then I kind of had all my answers. And I knew what I was dealing with what I was working with and going, Okay, this is going to change now because I don't think like I had returned to teaching. After having my first and in between there. I was also starting to teach art workshops and stuff with a company locally here called makeshift creative. So they, yeah, connect, like creative people in the community with the community. And so I was teaching art workshops, and I was entering art exhibitions and getting back into my art while raising my first son. And then I returned to work had my second son, and then I just could not get back to work. And I was like, Everyone kept saying, you know, when are you going to return and I wasn't, like coping very well. So people were kind of pushing that because they thought that might be good for me, I think, because I'm definitely someone who, yeah, I was happy to go back to work at like eight months with my first. Um, so then yeah, I just couldn't get back there. So then I decided, You know what I've got to, like, rethink this because I think going back to a high school setting and trying to teach art as well as like, my son is he goes to, you know, our sorry, speech therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy and music therapy. We take him swimming, so he's in a lot of things and it's kind of like a part time job in itself just working with him and stuff. So yeah, supporting him, so I just couldn't kind of return to that. So that's when I was like, I'm gonna start a business And art is definitely what I want to work in, like, definitely my passion. So yeah. And it's taken me that in itself has been like a year long journey of just discovering what exactly is it that I want to do? So I've kind of come all the way around and said, I want to help like moms who went through what I went through who kind of lost themselves in their motherhood. And I definitely feel like there needs to be more support for moms. And yeah, I'm just, I coach them and help them get back to their creativity find their creativity, or even moms who've never been kind of creative, and they see the benefit in it, because it's so important. So yeah, that's awesome. That is so great. Yeah. I love that. So long winded but no, no, no, no, that's so good night. I think that's just so wonderful. Because you're right there isn't there? Isn't anyone out there? I mean, you are now but there's no, I mean, like your friend said to you, like, there's no, like, it's not a formal thing that people go, right. Okay. So this is what happened. But now you can do this, and have you thought about this, or, or try this, or, you know, you're essentially taking on that role of the person that can. And because you've got that, you know, perspective yourself, you know, how hard it is, you can sort of see all the, the barriers, I suppose, and then just break them down and go. Yeah. A lot of my coaching is actually, like, it's, it's, it works on your thoughts. It's not, it's not strategy, like you should be doing this. Like, I'm not going to tell you, hey, what worked for me was entering art exhibitions, that got me back to my creativity. It's actually like, all mindsets. And it's like even looking back at my uni days, and when I left, like, I literally put my art down and walked away from it for probably, like, 15 years, like, like, serious artmaking for so long of my life, which is now I just feel so sad that that happened. And it was just a mindset thing that I was like, I can't I can't do this anymore, because I'm not at uni, and I don't have a job to like, support it, or I can't be successful with this and make money from it. Which actually, there's there's definitely, you know, that's just the thought that I had that stopped me from creating. Hmm. Which is the thing if you had had someone like, yeah, so yeah, actually, have you? Yeah, yeah. So that's why I feel like coaching is so important. And I meet with coach, so after this time, meet with my coach on a Tuesday. And, yeah, I have an hour session with her and she helps me with my business and, and supporting those moms. So yeah, I think it's such important work. It's, it's really, and it's all that kind of self care work. Like you're investing back into yourself. And like I yeah, basically, I create my art from, you know, the work I do with coaching and with, like, the work that my friend did for me, you know, that all came from that kind of work. So, yeah, that's so important. I think that's so great. Honestly, it feels like in a way, like you received that help, and you're sort of paying it forward. Yeah. You're, you're giving other moms the tools that you were able to gain? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just basically taking, like what I've learned from my own experience, and then, yeah, helping other moms with it, who might be dealing with the same sort of thing can relate and stuff. So yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's really not, there's not too much of it out there. You know, like, it's kind of Nishi like, it's a little bit. Yes, specific, but I think it's really important. And I think, yeah, there's lots of mums. So and there's a whole range, like, there's moms who, you know, were quite successful before and have lost themselves completely, or there's, you know, moms who've never done it before. And they're like, Wow, I really like I love the benefits that she's getting from this. Like, I might have a go at art or some that are like, I used to love it in high school. I've had lots come to art workshops and say, you know, I've, I loved it in high school, and I've just never gotten back to it again. And I'd like to now in my motherhood like I would like to have a go again. Yeah. Is it really it's so important to have something for yourself, isn't it? Yeah. Away from your role as a mother? Yeah, that's been a huge like realization. I've got a five and a half year old it saved me five years kind of come around to the fact that actually, it's so important that my husband have his he's a surfer. And now he's just gotten really after at the end of COVID. He's gotten we live between the ocean and the escarpment. And so he's gotten really into downhill mountain biking. Right now he's kind of got the two to use, you know, if one's not good, or something like that. Appropriate. So, um, yeah, like, I think before I was very much like your father, now you need to be a dad and be here, you know, 24/7 and devote everything to your children. And actually, that just burns you out. And then you're completely useless. And that's not healthy for your kids, either. To see parents like that, you know, just and upset and create, like, you will burn out and then it will come out in other ways, you know, so absolutely. It's just not healthy for a family unit to just be kind of, it'd be like, in a relationship, like just living and working and everything together and never having a break. Like you need that break to miss, you know, the other person and then come back and be, you know, completely full and giving. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? And that's the thing too, like, if you've had a lot of moms I've spoken to, they've been artistic their whole lives. Yeah. And even when they got married, one of my, one of my previous guests, Sammy Lange said to her husband, just before they got married, you know, this is what I do. I'm not gonna all of a sudden start cleaning the house. And the same thing happens when you become a mom. It's not like all of a sudden, you go, Well, I'm gonna forget all that thing. That thing that I loved my whole life. I'm just that part of me is gone. Now. Now I have to be on, you know, certainly for a portion of time, that might be the case. Because you know, early, early babies are like, the babies. Yeah, the first, you know, few months is incredibly demanding. So yeah, challenging to find even the time to sleep, let alone do something for yourself. But as time moves on, it's like that part of you is still there. It's just a matter of sort of getting back to it, I guess. Yeah. I think like, she was so I think, wow, because she was so emotionally mature at that age, like at that time to be able to recognize that because I didn't, I was like, well, here I go. Like, I'm into the next stage of my, my life. And like, I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like, you can't Well, for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing a whole I was I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me, not like I wasn't in control of it, kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything. And but yeah, like, wow, for her that she's just been able to do that right from the get go. And she made that a priority. It's taken me like, a long time to realize that and make it a priority for myself. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, it happens, isn't it? And I guess, it depends how you've grown up what your, you know, your role modeling was like, from your parents about, you know, what was what value was placed on what I suppose? Yeah, we're also different, aren't we? Yeah. But I think it's so important to spend that time becoming conscious and aware of that, and like, figuring that out, and realizing how that impacts you. And yeah, recognizing your, your own individual, you know, upbringing and, and the person you become and then you're in full control of changing that and, you know, controlling your future moving forward. So take that and then consciously choose like what you want to do. Yeah, your future. Yeah. So you raise your kids right. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing, isn't it? Because they're watching like, you know, they're observing what's going on around them and yeah, even at such a young age, and like you said before, we you know, if you burnt out you know, you start to get impatient and you you know, your relationships suffer like the kids they see and feel all of it so, oh yeah, it's so important, isn't it? Yeah. So identities a big thing, be yourself and feed them Moms who code What about mum guilt? Is that something that sort of comes into it as well, that idea that moms shouldn't be doing something for themselves? They should be mums. Or? Well, I yeah, I thought about this. And I think we all suffer from Mum guilt, like, must be in US innately. But I would say I probably I probably suffer less than average, like, I definitely I am constantly. Yeah, looking for ways to you know, get a break, or that sort of thing. See my husband, he works interstate, every week, he travels around Australia. And so there's like three nights a week where I'm on my own. Luckily, I've got my parents, they've moved here from Canada, eight years ago, and they live like five minutes up the road from me. I don't know how I would do this. Yeah, without having my parents nearby. They've been such great support. And through all, like, the medical journey we've been on with our youngest and stuff, so. Yeah, so I'm always looking for things that I can, you know, a weekend away or like, a night away, or like a workshop to attend or? Yeah, where can I get go for like, a float or like, a massage or just for Yeah, bushwalk I can go and do or friends where I can catch up with like, ways that I can fill my cup. So I'm, yeah, I feel like I don't have enough of that stuff. I need to always that's a constant work is trying to make sure I'm taking a break. And when I get it, I like I'm out. I don't find home and check in or night or anything like that. Like I'm like, switched off. I'm enjoying it for as much as possible. Because yeah, I just know that when I'm back, you know? Um, yeah, it's just all about mom like 100% Yeah, so I don't tend to get to about a mum guilt. I guess you kind of like, you kind of have moments where you look at it. Well, for me, I look at it like big picture. And you know, the time flies with kids growing up and you think, yeah, I guess you kind of reflect and say, you know, did I do enough of that? Or did I do enough of this? Or, like, you know that I missed out on that or something like that. So I think that mom guilt kind of creeps in and yeah, but I think I don't know I'm I try to be pretty compassionate with myself and say, like, you're doing a bloody good job. And you know, like, cut yourself on Slack. You've got a lot on your plate. So um, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I feel for the moms like that's, that's why I'm doing the work. I'm doing feel for the moms too. But that's my art art workshops are a big part of that and getting the moms out of their house. My art workshops are minimum three hours, because I might you need three hours, don't need an hour and a half. Like, you know, you need three hours to walk out a home to connect with other moms, other women to really get into the art and relax and be you know, in the moment, being mindful and like, yeah, just filling your cup for a good three hours and then returning home, you know, and that's healthy for the carer who's on the other end to have that time with the kids too. And for the kids to have that time with the the other partner or carer you know, to? Yeah, to be to be taken care of by someone other than mum or, huh. I think that's something we forget to it's like they have relationships with other people. Yeah, they need to have the time to build on them as well. Like, yeah, I mean, maybe I'm saying that to justify it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, they make time with other faithful. Yeah, my boys are really good with everybody else. They go to other people. They Yeah, they happily have, you know, they'll go for a sleepover or something with their cousins or, like, yeah, they're really good like that. And I think that's probably just how we've been raising them. Yeah, maybe. You're listening to the odd thing I'm gonna ask you a question. Yeah, that wasn't on the list. So I'll give you some time to think about it. If I just just as we've been talking, I just wondered what in your experience with your coaching what is like the biggest issue or the biggest? Yeah, I guess It's an issue that stops me from creating or holds them back from creating. Um, I would say, I think, initially, everyone thinks that it's time. Or it's energy. That they don't have enough time as a mom more time poor. Or we're tired, you know, we're exhausted. Surely I can't take on something else like, but that's not what arts about, like my creativity, I should say. Because when I say creativity, I'm talking like the mums I help can be anyone from you know, just like the moms you interview from singers and musicians, to writers to artists. So yeah, I think we think that we're kind of time poor, and we don't have time to take this on. But yeah, it's actually adding to you it's not like something that is meant to be more work, it's meant to be enjoyable and a break, and then it feels your carbon gives back to you to your mothering. So, um, yeah, I would say that's probably a big one. But that's what I kind of worked through them with their thoughts is that, you know, we use time kind of as like an excuse. But is it really time? Or is it actually something deeper than that? So we kind of work on that deeper level of what's really what what are you really thinking in your head? What's really, what's the fear there that's kind of holding you back from from doing this, you know, whether it's creating your art or it's sharing your art, you know? Yeah. Are you doing things like procrastinating? Or are you being a perfectionist about it like, so it's more that sort of? Yeah, thought work, then. Yeah, any of those kind of surface level excuses? Yeah. Do you find people feel? And I'm just saying this from the feedback I've had, when I've chatted to other mums? Does the some of them feel like what they're doing will be judged as being a bit of fluffing around and not that important? So it's like, what are you doing that for? sort of thing? Is that just coming into it a bit? I yeah, that definitely comes into it, I think. Yeah, that's just, yeah, you're always going to have I think people around you who have their own thoughts about art, and that's, you know, might come from society's value of art. But yeah, everyone's got their own thoughts and values. And so you just have to kind of think that's fine, that's your thoughts, but that they're not mine. And I'm not going to take that on, I'm not going to kind of let that affect me. But it is hard, because that can be someone like your partner, or it can be like a parent or something like that. So somebody who you really want for support, or you really think or your support team can actually be kind of not the people you should go to, to get to seek support from for this sort of thing. So yeah, I think again, just being conscious and knowing, like, yeah, being aware of what's kind of around you and being selective as to what you take on and what are your own values? And what are your own thoughts? And yeah, and running with those and not sort of letting? Letting? Yeah, other thoughts kind of influence? Yeah, yeah. And I guess then being sort of, like you said, the people that perhaps you shouldn't go to for this sort of stuff, like seeking out those people that are your tribe, I suppose. Yeah, he's not ready. But you know, what I made the paper that are on the same page that will support you and give you the confidence that you might be needing Exactly. So my girlfriend is definitely like someone I would go to, who supported me when I was with my first child, I would go to her for, you know, a bit of a boost or some feedback. But I have made a Facebook group for this because I've found that this is something that's kind of missing is like that community support of other like minded women. So we can, you know, in there, we can encourage each other or ask for feedback or, you know, just talk about different topics or struggles that we're kind of going through or even sharing just our motherhood challenges that are happening. So it's really niche. Nishi kind of like, what we're dealing with, is really specific that other people can't kind of relate to so there's, there's certain aspects that people do and that's great. Um, I'm glad that kind of helps. But yeah, it is it is quite specific. What we need need that community that network for so yeah, I've got a Facebook page called Creative village. So it's like, you know, your village, but creatively it takes a really? Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes for anybody that's, that's keen. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of people that are. And I'll certainly be checking it out. But yeah, when you're talking before about this, like, you know, it might be your partner or your, your parents or maybe parents in law that no, don't see the value I just want to reflect on there was an experience with a mum that I interviewed, I think last season, who's the parents in law were babysitting the dog? There was like, the hammer square, but they would, because she's the daughter in law, right? So she's not like number one. So the daughter was getting the child babysat by these grandparents, because she was going to work. Yeah, but then the grandparents didn't want to babysit the other child, because the mom was just making her art. Yeah, it was like, they didn't value in that at all. And that's like, ah, it just makes you just so cross, you know, that. I know, everybody's different. And I shouldn't judge people, but it's hard not to see, like, how devalued that that mum would feel. Yeah, you know, by that one person saying, Oh, well know what you're doing isn't worthy enough. It's not real work. Yeah. And that's just like demoralizing. So having people around you that can go? That That's a load of crap. support you? Yeah. So important. Really, that's really tough. Because it would that would have an impact on you. And you would probably question, you know, what is this a waste of time or something like that? You're like, you, you get all these thoughts coming to you about like, that are coming from that. And you know, so? Um, yeah, I think just being really strong on what you value and what's important to you what you need is so is so important. And then yeah, finding the right people around you that can kind of support you. Like, when I the last art exhibition, I entered, it was a still life show. I'm still like prize, I ended up painting. Like, I just paint around the house. So I just painted on my back. Entertaining table, like my dining table, outdoor dining table was beautiful as like, sunny, we yeah, we were really lucky with the weather. And the kids just want to get involved. And I've talked to other artists, moms who they've got like a studio in their home and that sort of thing. And they say the kids come in and out like all the time and that's so beautiful to for, for, you know, the kids to grow up in the studio and to be around that creativity and value that growing up like, Yeah, I think there is a bit of a balance there between, like having your own space to focus and stuff. Certain work requires that like this, for example, with the kids in the background, but like, yeah, if you can involve them and have them working beside you like some there's an artist that I follow. Um, I can't remember her name now. Um, she gets her she's quite famous in Australia, and she gets her daughter to work on her paintings, like, and they're in galleries and everything. And they're beautiful. And it's so no, I think more of that needs to kind of happen with Yeah, with with artists, moms that just it just adds that layer into like artists mom's work that for sure. Yeah. You know, I think that's, I think that's so cool. I would love to do that. At one point. If I can get my boys involved in my work. That would be amazing. I'm just trying to see if I've got it. I can't see where it is now. But I did. I'm not I like to paint just to fluff around because yeah, my main thing is singing and writing music and stuff. But I love I love fluffing around with brushes and stuff. It's just I just feel really nice when I'm flowing. So I did this, this like it's all abstract, mostly fuel Watercolor, I'm getting better at making flowers. But it's Yeah, practice my gosh, it's practice in that. Yeah, yeah, I have the patience for it. But I did this big abstract bits and bobs. And then I gave it to my six year old and said, and gave him my pastels and said, he goes, you finish this off, and I look at it. And it's like, I would never thought to do what he's done. Like, it's so kids look at their creativity. And it wasn't like he'd even I think I can't remember how he described it. But like it was his idea of whatever this thing was, he tried to represent it. So he's gone. I'm going to draw this thing. And he just tried to draw that to me. It just looks like amazing marks on the page. It just looks so cool. I'm like Digby, that looks that looks like a proper art now thank you for your I didn't touch I couldn't have done that. Because I'm a lot of my create my art stuff is like, I've got to get it to look the way I want it to. And because I can't do that because I don't have the skills. I just end up getting frustrated when I'm digressing. I wanted to talk a bit more about your own art that you create in your photography and such. Yeah, what sort of things influence your work? Well, I'd say, like, when I first started, I was, I would say I was more influenced by making art that people would buy. I think that's a big thing. Artists kind of deal with is like, making Yes, stuff to sell or just expressing themselves and working. And I would say like if I was in, if I had more, yeah. If I had more time, it's just kind of funny. But I'm like, because I do the coaching and I do my art making my art making is really like a I wouldn't even say part time like It's like quarter time because I've got you know, parenting and then my coaching. And so anyway, if I was like a full time artist, and I wanted to do that full time, like I would think that I would be in a studio for a long time. And I would be you know, just spitting out artwork that I wanted to express and how I was feeling and that sort of thing. But when I'm making for exhibitions, there's usually like a theme I'm working with, or Yeah, like, or in the beginning, I was thinking a lot about what would people want on their walls. So I was making things more about and I used to be really into because I grew up in Canada. And then I moved to Australia, I was really interested in landscapes and that kind of like the juxtaposition of the two. And yeah, that I just really love both, even though they're so different. So I did a lot of landscape stuff. But now I'd say the most recent show, I did the still life prize, it was all about motherhood and I'm really interested in starting to yeah, really, I obviously value that so much. It's such an important part. To me. It's really like the most important thing in my life that's happened to me is what I've gone through and becoming a mum. So I really want to express that more and just yeah, it's just not in society. It's just not spoken about enough. And it's there's not enough awareness about what what happens. So I think using art as a medium to express that is awesome. So that's probably what I'll be doing more of the next pieces I do. Yeah, will be more about motherhood and hopefully I can get to a place where I start to, you know, work through I get to express like my experience of my motherhood, like the trauma from my first birth and complications that I've gone through with my second son so yeah, we'll see how it goes. You know, like right now? Yeah, a lot of us feel really helpless. And you know how, as a mom at home with my kids, can I help like what's going on in the world, but really, that work is so important. Like, we wouldn't have, you know, a Putin out there right now if, you know, there was a different upbringing, or that's an incredible way of looking at it. So important, our work was really valuable, really important and, you know, doing that work of whatever you whatever way you parent, your parenting style, but mine's probably more like gentle parenting. So, yeah, all that work you put in as a mom with your kids is you're bringing the future, you know, generation of people into this world. And that's really, really important. evety Like maybe if Putin did a bit of art like right, maybe I bet he was stifled every now. He wasn't even allowed to get out. Or anything. She was like that you're not doing it? So this is Charlotte Conde who was one of my guests in season two. And she said as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yes. It's like, what we're actually doing is CRISPR is still messy. You have to know you have to contribute to society. It's like what we Yeah. Seriously, motherhood? Just just, yeah, there's just this. Yeah, this there's no clear idea about what it is or what it what it does or anything. And yeah, I think this is such a different perspective. Like before you become a mom on what it's going to be like and what to expect. And you know, and you just think, like, that's why my husband and I were in such a shock when we had our, our first because no one told us that that was gonna be a possibility or like, yeah, that we were gonna have a tough year or anything like that, like we thought, you know, we're gonna have this beautiful baby and then bring them home and we're just gonna cut along and it's gonna be wonderful. Yeah, no screaming and like sleepless night. Yeah. So yeah, that's it sounds very similar to my story. It took me seven years to have my second because the first one was just like, What the hell yeah. And just Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, I feel like people, they try to give you an idea of what it's gonna be like, yeah, based on their experience, but you're not even in that headspace to even understand what they mean. Like when they say you're not going to get sleep. You go, Oh, that's nice. Like, whatever. You don't actually realize that. That's what they mean. Yeah, totally. I remember reading a book. And it said about this particular type different types of babies like ancient babies, or grumpy babies or whatever. And I'm like, my baby's gonna be perfect. I don't even need to read this. Like it was just denial complete. It's hilarious. Yeah. And there's just this like, you know, idea from society that moms just stay home and they live such good life, because they're just at home and like, they just are watching soap operas all day and have their feet up. And it's so easy, and the kids are easy. And it's like, yeah, you have no idea. No idea. No idea. You happy to talk a bit more about your first birth with the trauma involve? Yeah, I'm a pretty open book. Basically, like, I had a similar experience. I mean, I'm not saying similar because I don't know what you're about to say. But with my second birth, yeah, first birth was first one. I got induced because I had really high blood pressure. Yeah. He come out in an hour and a half. And it was horrific because they didn't have time to do pain relief. And that was the thing like when you have your first everyone says, Oh, it'll take 12 to 14 hours. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. And even the doctor when he came in and administered the drug to and broke my waters. He said, I'll see. I'll see. And I'll see you in 12 to 14 hours. He was joking. And then when I was laying there, and I felt like I felt like I needed your poo. But basically, I felt like I needed to push. And I told them, I said, I need to push. And they said, they looked at me like I was an idiot. And I was like, I feel like there's a bowling ball coming out of my bum. Like it just, that's the only way I could describe it. And they race to get this doctor. And he come up. And he was like, surely not like, again, like I was an idiot. And did a check on me. It was the first day it was surprising. It was horrible. Yeah. So he didn't check any could feel here. And it was like, You're literally about to these babies coming out of you. And it was horrible. It was horrible. And then with my second I said straight up, I need an epidural. Because if he comes, this one comes really quick. I need to be prepared because obviously last one was too late. And because he he was very tiny, he was only four pound 14 When he was born. Because he'd they, I don't know how, but between I had shared care between my midwife at the clinic and then the actual doctor. So between the two of them, they'd somehow missed that his growth had sort of plateaued at about 34 weeks. They hadn't picked that up. So it wasn't too Yeah, nine days before he was due. He the doctor did the scan you guys, your baby stopped growing. And I was like, I didn't know I had this feeling. I didn't have this beautiful big round bump. I had like a lopsided weird bump. And basically all the amniotic fluid had gone. And he'd stopped growing because my placenta had the blood supply was not working properly. So all of a sudden, it's like to get this baby out. Yeah, I didn't do it that day. Thank goodness. It was like two days later. Yeah. And we just had the worst experience like right from the start. We got to the hospital. We had this horrible midwife who told us we were late. And it was like, we got we got told to be there at a certain time. We were like five minutes late, because we couldn't get in through the door of the hospital. And then just thing after thing after thing went wrong. He came, they did the epidural and the epidural was too. He done it too high. So my lungs were starting to stop working like Oh, my breathing is compromised. Then he broke the waters there was nothing there. What did they do? It was just my husband. I think he's still traumatized by watching happen. So they're nice. They tend to to me sideways to let the to move the the epidural stuff, somehow they tilted me sideways because I could feel one leg but not the other. And it was just thing after thing after thing. And eventually, when it came time to push like not a not even push the contraction started. And his his heart rate was going down but it wasn't coming back up. So they were like, well, it's okay that it goes down. But it needs to come back up like a real set shows he's in in stress. They basically they said to me, we've got to get this baby out. And I was like, right and the like, we've got to go have a cesarean so I went to do that. And I'm thinking, Oh, this would be great. We'll get this over with but then when they were doing it, I could, I couldn't feel like I thought I'd be numb, like completely numb. And I wouldn't even know what they were doing down there. But I could feel stuff. So then I started to get all panicky because I couldn't. And I was it was horrible. My midwife when stood over by the wall, and just basically abandoned us. And thank God there was this beautiful theater nurse who came over and she was like stroking my head like it's okay, this is what's happening. This is what's happening next, whatever, she just took charge. And then eventually he come out and you know, he was he's fine. He just was very small. He just didn't have any fat on him. So his lungs were developed. Like everything was fine. Yeah. And then and then the OH MY GOD on the way back to the, to the room. She asked what we're going to name him. And his name is Digby. And she goes, Ah, I know a friend with a dog called Digby. And I was like oh my gosh, really doing this to me after everything's done to me. Now you're doing this. And then sorry, I'm really going on about it now. Obviously need to work through this today. We got back to the room and they decided he needed to be in this like the box thing because he couldn't keep his temperature up for himself. And then they said the specialist pediatric doctor come over and she asked me if I'd been drinking and smoking when I when I was pregnant and I was just like, I just burst into tears. I was like, I wouldn't do that. To my child, like, and she goes, I'm sorry, we have to ask because he's so small. And I said, Well, I overheard the theater people say my placenta was gray and grainy. And she goes, Oh, that explains it then, but then didn't tell me what that meant. Like, no one was telling me what was going on. And then the next thing was, I didn't move all night, because basically, I think I was in shock. And I couldn't move. My body was just in that same position. I came back from theater, and they sat me up for something. And they discovered that the epidural thing was still in my bag. And I was like, seriously, what else could you guys tell like going to end? It was just one thing after another, and I was like, I have to get out of here. And in the end, he the babies did. We stayed there for like two weeks, and I ended up going home and just coming to visit him, like through the day and then go home at night because I just couldn't bear to be there. It was like, well, you must have hated going back in there. Like you just would want to take him out of there. It was the as quick as possible that you can get him home and get out of that place was horrible. And I felt and then I felt really guilty for leaving him there every night saying goodbye and then rushing home trying to get as much sleep as I could pumping in the middle of the night because they messaged me when he was when they were feeding him. So then I was like, right, I better pump now. It was just like, it was hell. But anyway, you had a you had another child to take care of as well. He was he was good though. Because he was he was seven. So he basically had to learn how to make his school lunch. He had to learn how to do so many things like that, like was like Sorry, Alex, we can't do this. You have to do it. Like grow up so quickly pull little bugger. But yeah, so anyway, I've just I've just had an awful horrendous I have like, I had similar things kind of happened in there. But yeah, some of the stuff that happened to you just and that that was it like that, what my OB said to me, and my first birth was, it was really, you were really unlucky, like everything that kept happening to you. And I was like, yeah, it just kept happening to me. And, and he said, like, if it could have gone, you know, if you got to one thing like say an induction, like, it could have gone good or bad, it went bad. Then you went to the next thing could have gone good or bad. It went bad. Like everything just failed the whole way through. And I was just, he was like, you're just really unlucky. And I was like, was like, my husband's really like, would this have happened if we were in, you know, with a different team or in a different environment? Or whatever, you know? Yeah. And you just don't know, I think just this stuff happens, you know, in life. And I think the best thing you can do is try to work through it. Like the more you talk about it and just really figure it out. Because I did that after mine. I was like, I literally called it a puzzle. Like I was trying to piece together what the heck had just happened to me and figure out everything that went on because I actually was in so much pain, I lost my vision. So I have like, yeah, so I just, I think like for months afterwards, I just told people in front of my husband that like, I got to a certain point. And then I just close my eyes and I just bared through it. And I just could hear everything but I couldn't see. And he was like, he ended up telling me like two months later, he's like, your eyes were open, like the whole time. And I was like, oh my god, like I've lost like my vision, like recollection of it, or my body must have just shut that part down or something just to try and survive the pain I was in. But yeah, I think the best thing you can do is just like, you gotta debrief and like talk through it and and then just try and grow from it and figure out like, how did ya how did it kind of make you stronger? Or what did you learn from that? You know, like for me, like I everything I've gone through with my kids. Before I was really probably I didn't trust my instincts too much. I didn't know what to do. I relied heavily on other people around me for advice, you know. And now I feel like I am my son's like my little son's, like best advocate. I know more about him than any doctor. I pretty much tell them what he needs. I don't do anything they advise me to do unless like I feel like it's necessary like so I feel like I'm really confident on now. To who I used to be because yeah, like in the beginning, you know, you got this newborn and you're like, oh, like when do I feed it? What do I do like a rocket? Do I pad it? Like how do I you know, this like what do I what do I give him like? So yeah, now I feel I feel more like I can I can listen to my my instincts more and trust them. So but yeah, my worth was um My waters partially broke in the night on like a Sunday. And then we called the hospital they said to come in. And the nurse that was on she ended up checking if they had broken and because I just had like wet shorts in bed, but then that was it. No nothing else. And I was like 41, and one or something like I was oh, whatever way overdue and I had a big baby like he ended up being was he was like, close to four kilos. That's about eight pounds, eight ounces. And I'm like five foot four, like, I'm not a big person. Anyway, and um, and when she went to check, she ended up scraping or cutting me and I had I had bleeding and I had this like, beautiful pregnancy before this. And then this was like, the start of the horror that I like went through was she had done that. And my husband is not good with blood and hospitals. And he was just like, why? Like was that meant to happen? Like, what's going on? Like, this is like, he was really concerned already. Yeah. And then they basically said, like, you have to go home. Nothing's happening. We I can't how are you? And she was like, I can't tell because now I've like those, those blood and I can't, I can't. And I was like, well, thanks for that. You've just started this off on a great note. Like, everything was fine. I was healthy and everything. And then. And then so we ended up going home. And then like, I think I came in the next day to see my obstetrician or something. And he sent me over to the hospital to get monitored. And I ended up just standing in the waiting room and like no one can help me no one was seeing me I was in pain. I had really bad back labor and my birth. And and then yeah, they couldn't even give me a hot water bottle because they're all used in the rooms and stuff. And I was just really uncomfortable. And I said, I called the the OB and said I don't want to be here anymore. Like can I just go home? This is I'm not getting any treatment here anything. And so he said, Yeah, you can go. And then they ended up calling me and saying oh, your GBS positive. So we like legally in New South Wales, we have to induce you within 24 hours of your water breaking and like, we think they've partially broken and you need to get in here in the next hour. And we need to induce you. And I was like, so now you want me they're like, send me away, like, twice now. So then I went in and then and then they induced me but mine took a long time. And my OB said it was like night, I think it was nine o'clock when they induced me. So he said same thing. Like I'll see you in the morning for a birth. But I said do I do What do I do? Like do I do an epidural? Like I really don't know what to do. And again, I was very much like looking for other people's advice, like not listening to my body or anything like that, and just going by the professionals and trusting that they have done this a million times. And so anyway, he said, Well, I would take an epidural and get some sleep because you're you're going to need some rest. So I took the epidural and then I think yeah, anyway, in the morning, I started like having contractions and start started going into labor and I think that was at like 6am and Oh, and in the night my epidural had worn off or something like that. And so I said to them, like that was so so painful like because it takes them a while to come in and top it off or whatever so I said can you just um when it when it started in the morning I was like can you just make sure like it doesn't go low again like that because that was I was in so much pain there and I'm like in the middle of the night. So they talked it up, like really high or something and then I went into it I was pushing and then he was stuck. He was in the wrong position. He was like, sideways kind of and anyway and then I ended up being in like I would push and then when I rest I just endure like back labor I turn to my side and just be like it it got to the point I just felt like someone had broken my back like it was I was in so much pain. And I couldn't and I just kept saying to them I need a top off of this epidural like I can feel like I'm in so much pain. And they were really perplexed by it and thought you know, you shouldn't be in any pain with the epidural and anyway and Then he got right to the end, like they could see his hair and everything. And then they said, he should be further along by now, you know, you've been pushing for a while, and he hasn't been able to get any further out. And so they said, they said, like, we're gonna do an emergency Caesar. I said, Yeah, it's fine. Just like get him out. I'm just in so much pain right now. And then they went into the operating room, and the OB said, I just want to try a vacuum because he's right there. And I think I could if I twist them a little bit, I think I could pull them out. And anyway, the midwife the head midwife was arguing, saying, Don't do that. Like, that's not going to work. And so anyway, he did it and pop like this. It came off and he got this huge hematoma on his head. No, yeah, poor little guy. And then. And then they said, We're going to do a Cesar and then same thing they went to do like test if I was numb, and I was like, I can feel everything. Like I can feel all of that. Yeah. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, I think your epidurals fallen out, like I think it failed. Oh, not explain why I was in so much pain. And then, um, and then they, they said, We're gonna have to give you a general we're gonna have to knock you out. So I said, Whatever, I don't care. Just knock me out. By this point. My husband was so traumatized and like, so concerned. And so they sent him out by himself, sat him in a room all by himself. And then they knocked me out and they pulled out my son, and he went limp in blue. And they had to resuscitate him and CPR and everything, because he had the trauma from the, from the vacuum. And then he had a bit of a general so he wasn't in a good way. So he was in the NICU for five, five days, I think, or maybe a week, we were in the hospital together. But luckily, I could stay on the ward because I was in the public. And I was a private patient. So I was paying. So yeah, they kept me they kept me on the ward and let me feed him and all that stuff in the hospital. But yeah, it was just awful was horrible. But that whole week in the hospital, I like just wanted to kind of, yeah, figure everything out and get out of there. And like, yeah, it's just not nice, ya know, Banner, kind of, and no one else, like around me had anything like that. So I was just like, Why me like, yeah, for a long time, I think we went through that, like, you know, the whole Why did this happen to us kind of thing. But then a year later, I think I kept going, I kept going. I kept going, like, when I went back to school, I kept coming on school break, and I was having like a real struggle. And I didn't know why I was kind of having these outbursts and lashes out to my husband when it was a time when I should be so relaxed and feel so good. And I was like, actually not coping in the in the break time when I was like, I want to do all this stuff, but I can't do anything. And I'm really struggling and and then I went and saw my GP and they ended up diagnosing me with PTSD, like a year later, when I finally could kind of deal with it. So, yeah, yeah, it's that PTSD. That's something they diagnosed me with too. And it's interesting that I don't think I realized at the time, how, but how bad had been for me like, I don't think I just thought I similar thing. I've been really unlucky stuff happens. No one else around me had the same thing. And it wasn't till I was, I think I was on Facebook or Instagram, Amanda and I were talking about birth trauma and like recognizing an actual, it's an actual thing. birth trauma is a thing and they were talking about there needs to be more said about it and more support. And I was like, I think that's me. I think they have been trained like it's just, there's no, there's no, I don't know, when you're in the hospital. It's basically once you've had that baby. All the support goes to the baby like everything's about a baby and it's like, hang on a sec. I've just literally had my guts ripped open. Yeah. With little very little preparation, and under really, you know, stressful circumstances. And then I'm expected to look after this child like it just seems there's no care for the mothers that have been there. Yeah, and yeah, it took me a long time to realize that I was one of those people and then done a lot of work with my therapy. His two sort of things. And yeah, it's well done. Yeah, that's so important. I think you've, you've got to go through it and everything or else. Yeah, you just kind of hold on to it. And then, you know, you don't you kind of fall apart later in life, so yeah, yeah. Oh, so healthy to keep all that in. And that's a really horrible thing to keep in, you know, that's huge. That's not just like, you know, something minor. That's happened that's really big. And I think, yeah, everyone just thinks going into having a baby is, you know, this natural thing that we are all made to be able to do and stuff and actually, you know, sometimes it's, it's major surgery in someone's life, like, yeah, that's not a normal thing. Yeah, cuz you don't sort of plan like, you know, you and I are having a C sections. It's like, you can't drive for a certain amount of time after Yeah, yeah. So you don't think that that's going to happen to you don't sort of plan beforehand, right? Who's going to take me around and whatever, because you just don't think that that's going to happen? That in itself is like really limiting? Because then you have to ask people are really vulnerable that I can't even go down the shops, I've got to ask someone to do it. For me, it took me a long time was learning how to ask for help. Because, you know, and I still work on that and stuff. But yeah, like that. That's a huge part of motherhood is you literally can't do it yourself. So you have to learn that skill of asking for help. And you've gone from being this independent adult who doesn't really require anybody else's help, you know, to suddenly you have to be really vulnerable. Put yourself out there and ask for it. Yeah, to like to be able to do what you do. Yeah, it that's a big one, I think for a lot of bumps. was for me, yeah, yeah. Yeah, me too. Oh, gosh. Oh, thanks for sharing for sharing that. Yeah, no problem. Your story. It's yeah. It's beneficial to talk about things. I think it's like, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And just, the more we kind of communicate and like put stuff out there, the more people become aware, you know, and, and it's not or, and people can relate and be like, Oh, I'm not like the odd one out, huh. Like what happened to you actually, is very similar to you know, a lot of it has similarities to what happened to me and I went into my birth being like, like, I pretty sure my husband and I toured the hospital and we went through the NICU. And we were like, I looked at him and I was like, we won't be in here. We were in there for a week. Like, we weren't definitely in there. So but yeah, and when we were in there, like we our son was nicknamed the basketball player because he was so huge. He was long and big. And there was all these preemie babies. And that's what you think when you think of the NICU is like, preemie babies and stuff in there, you know, but it can be all sorts of reasons why you end up in there. So yeah, that's really true, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I feel like you need to shake myself down. That's it exactly. Yeah, all sorts of things. So like, I've just recently done a yeah, I've done so much like different stuff and kind of trying to work on myself and self care to take care take care of ourselves. And yeah, I recently did like a retreat, a women's retreat down the south coast here. And yeah, we did all sorts of stuff like that, like after you kind of tell your story or whatever you do, like an experience, like a cacao ceremony, or like shamanic breathwork and stuff. And then afterwards, it's kind of like, okay, like, we've gone through all that, shake it all out of your out of your body. And it's like, all that stuff is like really important. It really helps. So just lighten the load, like every time you kind of talk about it, and that sort of thing. It just gets a little bit lighter. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Like I mean, I used to be, you know, talking about all this stuff and be in tears talking about it, like I could barely even talk about it, right? It's so painful and you feel such a victim, whereas now I'm like, this is something that's happened, but I've worked through it, I've moved through it, and this is where I'm at now and like I would never be where I am if I hadn't gone through all that, like, you know, trying to see it as like, somewhat of a blessing that it's like improved your life, you know, instead of Yeah, this horrible thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it trying to see the positives and, and learn, I guess, what your lesson was, like what you had to what you had to learn through experience. And that's like, you know, it's like, COVID we've all gone through that. And, like, what, you know, there's probably some people who are still in, uh, in kind of like a victim state saying, you know, that was a horrible time in my life. And like, always, you know, that's really affected me or there's people who are like, I learned so much from that experience. Like, I now know what's really important to me, like, I know what I want to do actually changed my whole career. Like I did this. I did that, like, going through it, you know, and, and it's not just COVID that happened, like people had lots of horrible things happen because of COVID in there, you know, but they've become more resilient from it. So I think that's really important. Really important to do. Yeah, that's, that's a tree. Have you got anything coming up that you want to share? You've talked about your, yeah, for boats. By the time this episode comes out, that would have happened. But I'm definitely going to share that whatever I got coming up soon. I'll be having like it for people who are local, I'll be having. I want to try and make the monthly, but I've just collaborated with a gin bar in town to hold my art workshops at called juniper. So I'm going to be Yeah, I'll have an art workshop there next month in April. I've got my online community. This is kind of like my goal for this year, that I'm doing my art workshops to help moms get out of out of the home and women in general. And then yeah, the online community to connect and have that support and then the coaching. So my coaching is it's like ongoing, anybody can can sign up, but it's for a six month period. So anything less than that, just, you know, that's not enough time to sort of make some change and see some real results. So yeah, I commit to one hour every week for six months. And art wise. I've got I've applied for an exhibition actually in New York with my recent paintings. So it's an artist's mother exhibition. But yeah, I really keep my eye out for those sorts of artists mother kind of opportunities flying around, there's, there's a couple coming up. So I might apply for a couple others. But there's also my son's chromosome disorder. There is an an art competition for like rare disease art. So I think I really want to make something for that this year. That's in the middle of the year. I think it's like August or something, or maybe, might actually July. Um, but yeah, I'm hoping that's going to be an opportunity for me to sort of delve into that side of expression and trying to represent visually like my experience of, you know, having a son with a rare disease and raising a child with disabilities. Yeah, and I don't know what I'm going to create, but we'll see how that goes. But I do really want to do that. Because yeah, it's something really personal to me, huh? Yeah, not good on Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much for coming on, Andrew. It's just been a lovely chat today. And thank you for sharing so honestly, yeah. Cool. Thank you for having me and chatting with me, with all your honesty as well. Wonderful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast already. In sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Katherine Collette Australian author + podcaster S2 Ep44 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Katherine Collette, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. Katherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry, in diaries, stories or to pen pals. Throughout high school it fell away until her 20s when she would write a little play or comics for friends, An engineer by trade, when Katherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life she would write a book, so she began. Her first book The Helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life. was published in 2019 and she followed up with The Competition in February of this year - 2022. Her style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of punch. Katherine also co hosts the First Time Podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Mildenhall . Katherine - website / The First Time Podcast / Purchase / Instagram Williamstown Literary Festival / Bendigo Wriers Festival / Queensliff Literary Festival Varuna Writers Retreat / The Divided Heart by Rachel Power / Rachel Power's podcast episode Podcast instagram / website Music used from Alemjo with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast has done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Katherine collet, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two. Catherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry in diaries, short stories, or to pen pals. Throughout high school, it fell away until the early 20s When she would write little play or comics for friends and engineer by trade. When Catherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life, she would write a book. So she began her first book the helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life was published in 2019. And she followed up with the competition in February of this year. Catherine style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of a punch. Catherine also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Miljan. Hall. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Catherine. It's a real pleasure to have you. Ah, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Yeah. Must be nice to be the subject of a podcast rather than interviewing someone. Yeah, it is the I think that events add things to, I think the harder job is being the host, rather than being the guest. You got to be a lot more agile in how you're thinking and think of the next question. But if you're the guest, you just wait for the question and answer. It's great. You can relax a bit, just switch off a bit. And yeah, hopefully not too much of like, if you if you don't. So tell us about what you do. Sure. So I am an author. I have written two books. My first book came out about four years ago. And my second book, which is called the competition came out just over a month ago now. So I do writing. I write fiction, the type of fiction that I write is humorous fiction. And I also co host a podcast called the first time, and I believe you had my co host on the show a couple of episodes ago. She'll say, we know Yeah, it was lovely to make a she's, you guys must have so much fun when you make that podcast. It's I think it's well, I mean, we've been doing it for about four years. It started out the concept of the podcast was my first book was coming out. And she was the only author that I knew. So I kept asking her all these questions about what to expect. And yeah, we ended up making a podcast about it. And the podcast has continued since. But during the last and it's always been fun. But during the past couple of years with COVID. We're both in Melbourne, we've spent long periods of time locked down, as I suspect have, you know many of your listeners. But she really was my main touch point, aside from my family, my husband, my mom, it was Kate that I spoke to every week. And a lot of those chats are recorded. And we listened back. She made a little compilation a few episodes ago. And we listened back to the conversations just snippets that we had when COVID first hear it and then over time during lockdown, it was just a it was a really fascinating thing. She definitely kept me going but you could also hear the fatigue in our voices over time. Yeah, it's interesting to have that like little time capsule almost of that, that moment in time and sort of reliving the emotions and the uncertainty and all that sort of thing as as it went through. And yeah, I think it was fascinating because I think that period particularly at the start, you know of so much uncertainty. Yeah, to reflect back and think. Wow, I'm glad you didn't know what was coming in many ways. Yeah. So strange. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just want to let you know that I messaged you and let you know. But I am reading the competition. I haven't finished it yet. I'm sorry, I didn't get to finish it. But I love it. I mentioned you and your message I love your sense of humor is so relatable to me. I just I read it. And it's like, I could have said it myself. It's just love it. So. Oh, thank you. That's so nice. Thank you. I really appreciate that All right, so let's go back to the beginning. How did you become a writer. I was a kid who always liked writing. I, I wrote, as a, you know, pretty early on, I would write in diaries, I had a lot of pen pals. Often people didn't realize they were pen pals with B. So they, you know, didn't always write back. But I wrote a lot of letters to people. And I also read a lot of poetry in those letters, terrible sort of rhyming stuff. So it was something that was really a part of my life early on. But it fell away, as I think it maybe is a fairly common experience in high school I was more interested in I played a lot of basketball. For one, I was probably also more interested in meeting boys. So I did, I did some writing, but mostly it was assessment based. So there was some creative stuff in there, but but not, you know, not heaps. And then in my 20s, I would do little bits and pieces, sometimes for gifts for people, like I might write a little play if they were going away, or I might write comics for them. So I had this creative element. But I mean, I'm, I'm 41 Now, when I turned 30, it just not I had a crisis, but I had this moment of thinking, my whole life, I thought I would write a book. And I realized that no one's ever just gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, you'd be amazing at writing a book. If you if you buy a if you write a book, we'll publish it, you have to just start writing the book. And so I did, and I didn't shut start with short stories. I just plunged straight in. I had met. I'm an engineer, but I was working for a brief period of time at a council doing community development sort of stuff, which I was really very good at. But there I met this president of this local senior citizens club. And she was a really intense woman a little bit problematic. I remember that she I think the first time I met her she was furious because the Chinese subgroup of senior citizens had been playing mahjong in the bingo room. And she had gotten so angry with them for doing this that she had, they had sandwiches in the communal fridge. So she threw out all their sandwiches. And, and told them that it was her fridge and they weren't allowed to keep food in it. So I met this woman, I had this desire to write. And so I wrote a story that was set around a council worker who encountered this senior citizens club. And I was obsessed. I wrote, I didn't have I, this was pre kids. But I got up every morning, I'd get up at five, I'd write for an hour, then I'd go to the gym, and then I'd go to work. And slowly that would encroach into weekends. Like I do writing on weekends. I wrote a bit on the holidays. My husband was like, it's kind of annoying. She would not do this. But yeah, so that was how I got the first draft of my novel down. And I was madly redrafting, wanting to start to send it out. When my daughter was born, that felt like a really big hurdle. But basically, I sent it out. You know, I had a few hurdles and hits and misses along the way. But that novel ended up getting published. And when it was purchased by the publisher they purchased it was a two book deal. So I I was in at that point. Yeah. Is that scary though? Knowing that you've got to then turn around and do In other words, well, I had a draft of the other one. So that certainly helped. Yeah, but it is it is daunting. Yeah, I've heard people say that it, it probably is a better example of it, that do weekly columns. And so that feeling of like, you just sent one in. And then the next day, it's like, oh, I have to do another one. Like I just finished the first one. So did definitely have that. Yeah, right. So not wanting to spoil the competition for people who haven't read it yet. Was that inspired by real life people as well, as they helped me it was, it was so the competition is set around. Public speaking club, people might have heard of Toastmasters. It's a very similar environment. But basically, I had swapped jobs, essentially, from going from engineering to working at the council. And suddenly, I had to do a lot of public speaking. So I joined the local Toastmasters Club. And I don't know if you've been to Toastmasters. I know people I know people who have. Yeah, so I so it's, it's a funny little world. I think that a public speaking clubs probably always going to be pretty awkward. And you would want a public speaking club to be awkward. Both because people are trying something that is inherently awkward. But also, if it was to cooler space, you wouldn't feel comfortable to get up like it has to be this really accepting friendly, kind of gentle place. But that also adds a layer of unusual newness I suppose like if I guess my first impression of Toastmasters was like, Oh, this would be easy to satirize. Because, well, it's awkward, it's enthusiastic, it's really positive, it sort of came out of a probably predates the self help movement on us, but it's definitely a part of it. But at the first meeting that I went to, there was another woman who had just joined and she was a, she's a transgender woman. And she was in the process of transitioning. And she talked about why got to know her over time. But basically, in that process of transitioning, she picked Toastmasters as the place that she would start that so she sort of said to the group, listen, my name is this here. But outside of this, I've called David. And if you see me in the street, don't mention, you know, my name is Greer here, don't don't mention the two things. And that always struck me that Alongside this, this place, that could feel a little bit ridiculous at times, there was something about it, that was really beautiful. If someone who is doing something that's really brave, and I imagine it's really difficult, but they feel that this is the best place to start that journey. And so I always had this view of Toastmasters. And it was a view that I maintained over time, that it was a place where people found their voice, and that there could be elements of that, that were really funny. But there were elements of that, that were really sweet and positive and important. And, and so I started writing a book about it. And the book, the competition is set around a public speaking competition in a Toastmasters like environment. And there is a character in it. It's a really minor character that is based on that original woman that I met. But that's not the focus of the story. Yeah, yeah. Do the people know that they're in your books? Like, are they aware that they've had them? She's the only one that is based on Well, I did have a senior citizens club president in the previous one but I suspect she's is dead and and she was heavily fictionalized. The this is really the only character that is more closely based on a person but she's a really small character before it before the book came out, I had because I had interviewed Gregor is the woman same before writing the book. And I said to her, Oh, would you like to read the bits that I've put this character in? And I've set up copies of the book in my she said, No, she wasn't fast. But she my launch comes up in a week's time and she's going to come to the launch, which was nice. That's but it wouldn't be. It is lovely. It would be very daunting though. If I hadn't done those things, the idea of writing about something and not being I open about that. And I can see why people, you know, could make that choice just because it feels harder. But I'm glad I did. And I mean, it was a positive portrayal. Yeah, that's the thing. You're not You're not hiding it because it was, you know, you turned it into a negative or anything. It's like, it's quite positive. And you don't mind if that person is very aware that that is them? Or based on Yeah, that's right. That's right. I guess the challenge with that, though, in that kind of example, is that it could feel very random to have a book that is set in a public speaking club. And there is just a transgender character walking around, like, it could feel like a really labored form of diversity or something like that. So I just was a bit conscious of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So, share a little bit about a bit more about your first time podcast with I mean, I don't want to give away your secrets, because I want people to listen to it. But tell us the sort of the gist of it, I suppose. So as I said, when my first book was coming out, I had all these questions. And so I would routinely be like, okay, you know, like, my launch is coming up. What am I meant to do at the launch? Or they want me to give a speech at the booksellers conference, what should this speech be about? Or, you know, just all of these different things that I wanted her view on, I wanted to know the answers to because I think it's, I think it's a vulnerable thing for anyone releasing any type of art into the world via books, or music, or sort of visual art, those kinds of things. And so you, you sort of, I really wanted that from her. But I also was very much in this space of being a writer in a community of writers, and a lot of them were emerging writers, that would be going through the same things because, you know, they would have books published, if not now, but they just had books published. So both of us were like, Well, we think there's kind of a bit of space in this. And I think authors, particularly emerging writers also like hearing those stories of how people's books came to be sitting on the shelf. And did you get an agent? Did you enter a competition? Like, you know, was it on the slush pile, all this sort of stuff? So we started the podcast, and it always had these two parts. One part was our experiences. So me saying it was, I think, particularly in those early days, because we recorded a lot, before we had an audience, and we're releasing episodes as their audience was growing. We were both very vulnerable and saying, I feel really daunted. Yeah, so we had this one part, which was about us discussing me asking questions, the two of us discussing pretty candidly the experience of being published. And then the other part was interviewing authors, other authors about what it was like their first time. And so that was the initial starting premise. Initially, we had to not beg people to go on the show. But we certainly had to question please come on, you know, podcasts people can be a bit dismissive of, but we were like, ah, Could you could you come on our podcast and in people very kindly said, Yes. And so now I think we're into our fifth season, we are overwhelmed with people pitching like it, that part has really evolved, evolved. And you don't have to ask anymore, you've got people knocking down the doors to you to be a part of it. RedBubble. And the best part of that is, is that you get st people's books. So you just have we get lots and lots of books. So as someone who loves reading, as well as writing that, I just I constantly pinch myself and going to the mailbox and having all these books there. It's great. So that was where we began. We are now five seasons in we still interested in people's first time, and that's sort of what we're known for with our guests. We always ask them about that first time. But I guess as we've evolved as writers, we ask also about the craft of writing, as well as the publication experience. Yeah, it's been really nice. And I think what's nice about it is that you start to build a community around it, so it's got a really beautiful community and it's been such a nice thing to do. Writing can be really solitary, but this feels a bit more like a team sport. Yeah, absolutely. And it would be so rewarding to like knowing from your own point of view, what it's like, for your first time and how daunted you are, you're actually helping other people as well. I think that would be amazing feeling. It is, it's lovely. And some of the letters that we get, and emails are so touching. I keep mentioning COVID. But I think COVID is really dominated life. And we've had so many people that have messaged and said, You really got me through COVID I couldn't write I didn't feel creative. I was I couldn't meet with my writers group. But having you and Kate talking and being able to listen to you guys and hear the same struggles. And here also the your defeat your challenges in being creative at such a strange time. Yeah, so it's like they were they were, they were hearing from familiar figures in their lives. You know, it was they felt reassured, and yeah, it's like you. Even though you weren't there, you were there for people, you know. It's true. And I feel that myself with a podcast that I listened to podcasting in audio is such an intimate medium, because it's intimate. When you create it, it's just you and I sitting here, it's intimate when you listen to it, because it's generally most people listen on headphones, or, you know, maybe in the house, but they're generally listening on their own. It's only when you then realize that, you know, it's 1000 people listening on their own, that you realize what's not, you know, probably only to say everything. Not good on you that that's really awesome. I think yeah. COVID was, and it still is, you know, it's it's a time that's divided people like physically. And so having those, those connections that people can tap into, it's just been everything, it's been so important for people and yeah, good on you. And I think that community has helped us too. I remember early on in COVID, we had a listener that wrote a letter in and was saying they had just been at for Runa, which is a very well known writing retreat in the Blue Mountains. And it was in a house that was formally owned by Eleanor dark, who was a writer. And this listener that wrote in was saying that she had read Eleanor darks, diaries or something from the Second World War. And in them, Eleanor was saying that for the duration of the war, she couldn't write because she felt this creative malaise. Survival was sort of front of mind. And it just sort of felt frilly to be writing amidst all that, and something that really helped me when I was struggling to hear someone say, yeah, that is really difficult in times of hardship to want to write, but also that that malaise goes away, and that as as things in life get better. It comes back. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's, it's like a, it's not a thing that's sort of reserved for this era of COVID. Like, this is an experience that people have had for many, many generations. So it's sort of reassuring in that way, you know, that you're not alone. And what you're feeling is normal. And you can feel exactly, yeah, exactly. No, that's, it's interesting. Because I found in people that I've spoken to, through this podcast, it can go either way. It's like, some musicians go bonkers. And just they've got to express how they're feeling through their art, or painters, and, and such, and others that just go nuts. Like survival mode, like you said. It's like daddies that it's like almost the primal brain kicks in. And it's just day to day looking after yourself. Looking after your family. Yeah. And everything. That's really true. Yeah. And I guess, to everyone's experience with the COVID, throughout Australia and around the world as being different to like, even you guys compared to me here in South Australia, I've had nothing compared to what you guys have gone through. So I sort of touched with that. You know, we've been really fortunate here and yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting. I think that's really true. I think it's also if you err on that side of that, I can't write I can't do anything. I've got nothing. It's really hard seeing people that Oh, my God novel fell out of my head overnight. And I've you know, written it in three days. I think we often feel that since well, I think jealousy is always a part of creative life, how much you try and engage with that and be calm. Just not to let it in, but you can feel like you're falling behind Yeah. All right, so let's talk about your family and your children. You mentioned briefly that you had your first child when you were sort of the helpline was getting going places and happening and things. And yeah, tell us a little bit more about your children. Yeah, so I've got two children, the eldest, Matilda is eight now and Oscars, six. So they're both at school. This is Oscar's second year at school. So he's in grade one. So I feel like now is a really exciting time creatively, because I get two days a week that they're both at school, and I'm not doing other types of work. So that's really exciting. But yeah, so when Tilly was born, I took a year off work, you know, stayed at home, I wrote a lot in that time, she was a good sleeper. So I was really lucky in that respect. I feel like I've been able to maintain my creative practice through motherhood, probably the bigger blip in that was having two kids, because most people with multiple kids will know, you have this idea that maybe they'll have a nap at the same time, but think that ever really happened. So I think that felt that sort of first year of Oscars, life felt like far more of a hit in that respect. But I wouldn't change it for the world. I feel lucky, like those. I feel lucky to have both to both be able to maintain a creative space and energy and be able to do that. But also to complement that with family life. I feel that one enhances the other. It can you elaborate on that a bit more? Well, I think that pre kids, that was a fear for me, like I had this sense of urgency when Tilly was going to be born, that life would change. And I had a sense that what if I can't write anymore? What if? Or what if I can't write for a long time, what if it's not until they're both at school that I can sort of pick up a PIN, I really didn't know how that would work. And I think those early days of motherhood are so hands on, there's so much sleep deprivation and all those kinds of things that whilst I enjoyed all that I I had framed it around loss, in some ways that I would lose this ability to be creative. And, and a lot of that was related to time. But increasingly, I think having kids is enhanced my creativity, both from the point of view of productivity and the lesser time that I have. But kids also awaken a different sense of curiosity in you and a sense of play, which I mean, you reading different books and seeing different words in that way. But I don't know, like, just how a child will spend an hour balancing a beanbag on one foot, or you know, those sorts of the game of life, you know, games in nothing. And there's something that's I remember being a kid and thinking, encountering adults that I knew had forgotten what it was like to be a kid and thinking, I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. But I think for me, it wasn't until I had kids that I remembered what it was like to be a kid like I had forgotten. Yeah, because life takes you in that direction, doesn't it? Like life expects you to be a certain way and behave, you know, this level? And it doesn't encourage times of play and and it doesn't. You wouldn't the things that you do with kids. Like I don't know, it's sometimes it's boring, like you're playing in a sandpit and that repetition of activities that really little kids like But the delight they will take in playing with an adult is really a joyful you're listening to the art of being a mom. I started doing improv comedy last year, just they do a series of like terms, basically. Yeah. And improv, particularly in the early stages has lots of games that you'll play it. And they're really fun. So something very small might be one person you're in, say, pairs. One person says, well, well, if it isn't there, and then you have to think of like an adjective, and then an occupation or a type of thing. So well, well, well, if it isn't that angry bus driver. And then the other person has to say something that an angry bus driver will say, like, oh, you know, I haven't got a good ticket to get off the bus, something, something small. But I do that. And I take a lot of those games, but that sort of thing with my kids, where you'll say, well, well, well, if it isn't there, something something. And it's just really fun seeing what they come back with and what. Yeah, I would feel silly, potentially doing that with adults, but kids are always up to that stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love it. I work in childcare. And I, it's the perfect environment for just being yourself, like truly being yourself. Because you can be as silly as you want. You can have in the staff it everyone's the same. So there's all these banter and silliness. Like I could imagine going into my work and doing something like that, because people are just in that headspace that, you know, your inhibitions are gone. No one's judging you like, a kid's not gonna look at you and go, Oh, that's not very funny. Like, you know, it's so good. I do. Like there are certain friends I have that, that you can do that sort of stuff with my publicist for the book, the competition, we've traveled around a bit since the books come out. And she was saying when she was a kid on long car trips, obviously, you had the radio, but the radio would go out. So her family used to play this game where one of them would pretend to be a talkback radio host and the others would call in. And she said, the great joy of it was just in the name this so you sort of drive past a church and say, Oh, we're looking at churches today. Have you ever been in a church? What's the funny thing that's happened in a church? Do you like churches, you know, this sort of thing? And just the ridiculousness? We did it for hours. Like, just as we were sort of being driven from place to Oh, suitcases. Do you have a hard suitcase? You have a lost a suitcase? You know, just Yeah. So I tried doing that with my, my kids, and they have never heard talkback radio. We listen to podcasts and things. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? You sort of that's that generation. Yeah. Oh, I should try that with my kids. They would love that actually. So much fun. Yeah. Like, the more inane that it gets is just and because talkback people are so like, have such an opinion, such a singular point of view. Yeah. I can imagine your lady you said about before that it's like, yes, she'd be on Mars young into being gay. Right? Exactly. Oh, my goodness. One of the things I like to ask my guests is about how having children or being a mother sort of might have changed the way they create. And that's how it sort of has influenced you, I guess is that it brought back that ability to play and look at things differently. Maybe look at things through the eyes of a child and yeah, I think that's the real. Yeah, that's, that for me, that's what kids have brought. I think also that I've had much greater exposure to kids books. Kids books have changed a lot since I was a kid. You still have I mean, I love Roald Dahl. And I still love Roald Dahl. But even when I pick him up, I'm like all It's pretty harsh at times. You know, a lot of it is sort of carried through. But other things like I don't know if we'd get away with that now. Yeah, that's actually that's a really good point. You see some of the stuff. Yeah, I've noticed the same thing and like reading to kids at work over the years. It's like it's gone from like, almost like an adult way of writing to this completely the other way that you think you'd hear that in? Like, you know, the schoolyard like, it's not even formal enough for a book, you know what I mean? Yeah. This Yeah, the, my kids read a lot of Ra sprat, who does nanny Pickens. And anyway, she is very funny. Just listening to kids books is really fun. We listen to a lot of them on audio, on podcasts or on borrowbox, like library apps. tightenings. So I think, not only that sense of play with my own kids, but being exposed to authors who play a lot in their writing. I think there's so much more of that than there ever was, before you look at the tree house books or books that are just a bit absurd or, Yeah, funny books. Yeah. You talked before about not really knowing what to expect, like, you're thinking of things in a point of view of loss, like, will I get this back? You know, maybe how it's going to fit into my life? Did you have other members around you at the time, who were writers that you could sort of glean information from? Or are you just basically making it up as you went, I suppose I had, I had just started a writers group, there were four of us in the writers group. And I know I didn't have that, then that's a lie. So I had gone to RMIT. And I was doing some creative writing courses there. But I didn't have a group at that point. But it must have been fairly early on. When I went back, so Tilly must have been about 12 months old, and then met a couple of people. And we set up a writers group that was separate. So that was a really pivotal moment for me, in having other people around me who were writers that I could talk to, they were obviously less established writers. So they were also had pretty young kids. And we're figuring those things out. So I think it was a more lonely endeavor. By the time we're not a lonely endeavor, but probably everyone has to figure that balance of stuff out for themselves. But when my son was born, one of the girls in the writers group was Kate actually gave me a book by Rachel power coat, ah, what's the name of the divided heart. I remember breastfeeding at night, and just devouring this book, which is a book, it's a collection of interviews with creatives, writers, musicians, all different sorts that talk about particularly those early stages of motherhood and motherhood and how they fit it in. And so you would have people who were sort of literally breastfeeding to the side of the stage before going out and playing a set, and others who really had struggled to be able to do everything to be able to do anything. And, for me, that was the greatest education because it was this breadth of experience of how people had made it work. And so it sort of did reinforce that idea of you just have to figure it out. But it presented a vision of it can coexist. You don't have to give one up. You can have both, and it will be a juggler. And here are examples of what the juggler looks like. But yeah, yeah, that was huge for me. Yeah. And in fact, I've tried to give it to people who've just had babies and who are creative, and it's very hard to get. Yeah. I had Rachel on the, on the show on the podcast in season one. And gosh, she's an amazing woman to speak to. She's just, I don't even know how to describe her. She's just incredible. And the gift that that book keeps giving to people. It just it's endless, like so many people had had mentioned this book. And I actually had it I hadn't read it. I'd heard of it, but I hadn't read it. And I reckon the first three people I've spoken to had mentioned this book, I'm like, I need to read this book, and then I read it and like I need to talk to this lady that wrote it. I need to get inside her head more. And yeah, she was so generous with their time Um, it was wonderful to speak to it. It's such a known book among, like, I want to say it's niche, but it's kind of not niche because it really applies to so many women. It's just that it applies at this particular gets you at this particular stage of life. That's it isn't. It's yeah, it's an incredible book. Yeah. I approached my interview with with Rachel, like, I didn't want to be complete fangirl. You know, you might be like, actually, when you speak to authors, it's like, I need to contain myself. But I'm so excited to speak to it. And I just wanted to to really understand from a layperson, that what she's done is just been incredible. And the gift that she's given to so many people, and yeah, just how grateful we all are, you know, for does she know that I imagined check and save a lot. Does she think? Yes, I hope she does. If you're listening, I hope you get it. Push it really to me. What in, in what I have seen, it is the only book of that kind of milk that I have discovered. And it is a very beloved book. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. So yeah, like, I think what, what I've sort of taken from that, what you're just saying is like, you can see what other people do, you can't exactly copy what they're doing. Because everyone's life is different. But it's reassuring to hear everyone's going through it. And we can make it work. And like you said, these are some ways that you can sort of manage that, that juggle. And I think it helps with that. You can feel very judged in that juggle at times, particularly in a creative juggle is very distinct from a work juggle, because at least a work juggle is bringing money in. Whereas the creative juggle, might not bring money in at all, or a very small amount of money relative to return. So that tension, I think, is what profound in that space. It's a whole, like, I can never say it right? It's not a kettle of worms. It's a can of worms, can I get my kettle of fish in my cameras? But that is it like the value that artists have been honest, a forced in inverted commas, because I don't really believe we bring it on ourselves. It's something that society and external judgment has brought upon us that we, if things are only a value, if that's a monetary value, and that's a horrible thing to say, unless you can commercialize it, unless it's part of capitalism, society, it's what is it worth, you know, and that's a really, really sad thing with so I think it's so deeply ingrained that in many people that many people don't even realize like one of the things people always ask you, when your book comes out, or when it's been out for a little while, it's generally not other writers or other authors that would ever ask this, but just kind of people that are outside of that world is Oh, what a sales like, Did you which, and I can understand that compulsion to ask that. But it's, it's such a fraught question for someone producing creative because it's so diminishes the worth of something to this volumetric measure, when equally, they could say, you know, what's been the response? or what have you, you know, like, there's so many other ways that you could measure the success of a thing to talk to sales is, is Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Some of the moms I've had on this show, have felt the judgment from not their own parents, but like parents in law, about there's one example of a lady that the mother in law would look after the brother's children because the mum was going to work like an actual job, but she wouldn't look after her children because what she was doing wasn't deemed as being worthy enough to have childcare. You know, it's like this, this massive judgment that comes at you from all angles. That kind of ties into one of the things I love to talk to moms about is this whole concept of mum guilt. What's your sort of take on that in relation to, to creativity? I think, I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that stuff is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship. And, like a real life relationship between perception and and that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Yeah, I don't suffer majorly from guilt. Because I guess for a lot of years, I tried to make my writing as invisible as possible. So I would get up at five o'clock or 430. Before kids, pre COVID, I would leave the house, we have a 24 hour McDonald's nearby, I would spend that, you know, be back by 7am, which, you know, I'm in a privileged position to be able to do because I have a partner who was in bed at that time. So I did work really hard to kind of make that as invisible as possible. Because I have now got two books out, I've been able to carve out more time. But I remember when Tilly was I think she was about nine months old. And she might have been 10 months. And I got my very first fellowship to go to a writing retreat at Bruna at this retreat that I've mentioned before, and it was a full week all on my own. And I was so unbelievably excited, because it was a really validating thing to have one in the first place, but also because I had a 10 month old baby like to be away from that child was like hard, but I was gonna love every minute of it as well. Yeah. And I think I even weaned Tilly in order to go, which I would not have told people at the time, but I didn't want to be pumping milk and being at this retreat the whole time. Yeah, a week. Oh, my God, having is the worst. Anyway, so my husband and I were in Sydney and I was going to catch a train to Verona. And so I was in this like, great, joyous mix of excitement and all the rest. And he got up at sort of 5am put to leave the car and they drove off. And so I lay luxuriating in bed and was just about to get onto the train, and was just pure, pure excitement. And you know, like, I'll miss you, but I'm so happy. Anyway, he called me at like 730. And something had happened with the car. And they've been driving. And he what had happened, the brakes had failed. So he was trying to slow the car down and pushing on the brake and nothing was happening. So he was stuck on the freeway with no way of like slowing down. And so he managed somehow to get the handbrake to go on. We just got to get like 100 kilometers now. So it's like this real near death experience. And it was so like, it was awful and crashing on multiple levels. But I remember feeling really worried but also, if I hadn't have been if I hadn't have been going off to do my writer's retreat or why myself that would like it was such a guilt laden moment, even though it was complete chance. And me having been there or not, wouldn't have made a difference. Yeah, there's just yeah, like, did you get to go on your retreat still? Or did they did and I still had a great time. But I always whenever I think of that retreat, I think of this need if that was it, the cruise control got stuck on and he couldn't turn the cruise control off my God. So it just kept the car kept barreling along so it's it's really frightening thing. But whenever I think of that retreat, I also think of the two of them having this near death experience. And it is overlaid with joy and guilt. So as much as I sort of am conscious of it and try not to feel it. It's it's yeah, it rears its little head. I love that. And I love that you didn't go back and save them in the lucky which rich rage because like, like you said, like what would have been nothing would have changed. If you were in that car, the same thing would have happened. It's like I would have made it worse because I would have been like ah like I didn't die. So it's probably better for everyone that I was I had topic that I like to raise with my guests is about identity about how the concept of how you saw yourself changed when you became a mum. Did you sort of have any To sort of experience where you went, I mean, you did talk about before, how you were concerned that you may not be able to write again. Yeah, identity is an interesting one. I think that I have never been a person that has, when I became a mother that that became my single identity. And I'd probably say that from even when I worked, I worked as an engineer, I really struggled to say I'm an engineer, were to take that honest identity, like some people do really take their job on as an identity I never really did that. I struggled to take on I'm a writer as an identity, which probably is more impostor syndrome, you know, is, is probably the source of that more than anything. So with motherhood, I was obviously a mother, but I never saw that as a singular entity to how I was. And I think part of that was, I was able to write in those early days of motherhood, you know, a couple of months in that sort of stuff, I did go back to work. So I didn't spend, I spent a year off, but I didn't spend a prolonged period of time. So I think that really helped. I have a tendency to obsession, like I could very easily focus singularly on art, like I have to be very conscious of what is important to me in life. And I want to have strong relationships with my kids and my partner and be in the world. But I have to really be conscious to balance that and to not let obsession with writing and those kinds of things overtake it's a really conscious effort for me. Yeah, yeah. It's you find that but like, how do you I'm an all or nothing person that my psychologist has told me that many times, I, I get fixated on things, and I have to do them. Or conversely, I just couldn't do it about anything. Like it's really odd. Yeah. Like, if I've got something in my head that I want to achieve, I'll do it. But that's very rare. I'm a very unmotivated person generally. That's like, when I watched the Olympics, and you hear people their story, like, they broke their leg, but they came back, and then something else happened. And they came back, I just think, God, I would have just given up after the first thing, you know, I'm not that person at all. So I have so much admiration from people that do that. But yeah, I I'm a bit I'm a bit the same sometimes. And then I sort of think, ah, who's cooking tea tonight, you know, like, just getting this. I'm just doing doing doing and I'm like, Oh, I lift my head up and go, Oh, what's happening in the world? You know, I think it's as well like, the tension we often have in my house is my husband is a much neater person than I am. So, yeah, I can really, I can live in fields, but like, as long as there's no like dirty food and dishes and that sort of stuff. Like I can absolutely, I can tune it out. It doesn't bother me and I sometimes think, like not to overstate it. That's a gift in life, too. Because I was not someone who when the child was napping, I wasn't like, I'll quickly tidy that never occurred to me. I was there was not going to happen. I can completely relate to that. Like right, what can I do now in 45 minutes? Jumping this just exactly which I think is what you have to do, like, in those early stages in those early days of motherhood. If you are the stay at home and the babies you're doing 90% of the caregiving oh my god you can't be cleaning your house in the 45 minute nap that that child has. No, absolutely. Just makes me weary thinking about it actually. I know. But you also have to be tolerant like you have to be able to stand the mess Oh, that's the thing, isn't it? You do but you do you get you get used to a level of discomfort that then sort of disappears it's like I can handle that being there can i Yes, I can but I don't even say anymore it's absolutely spotless. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. So do you feel I know your children are six and eight, they're very capable of seeing what's happening around them. Is it important to you that they see what you're doing and what you're contributing to the world? Yeah, I think I think it's really important. And they are really proud of that to my son in particular, is, I think, my best PR agent in the world, he will always tell when he talks to his teachers and says all mums, you know, last year, he was saying all mums written a book. And this year, he was like, Can I take the book in for my teacher and to this fit, like, he tells everyone, we went into a bookshop recently, and my book was on the shelf. And he was quite a small shop. And he was very loudly, ma'am, there's your book, and I was sort of, like, cost cash Don't, don't don't. And then when we came out, and he's like, You should be so proud. Why why, you know, like, really, really sweet. So I think it's really positive for them. I think I didn't grow up in a household that, you know, when people talked about where they were artistic people in it, people read a lot and, you know, went to theater and shows and likes things, but the idea of doing it yourself was pretty foreign. So I really liked that that's a possibility for them. But they also, and I think this is good to see that you're generally not going to make a living from it, it will bring you great joy, you can have a lot of success with it. But from a fiction writing perspective, it would be 20 authors in Australia, you know, a pretty small number that get to write full time. Yeah. Yeah. So they're learning early on the realities of hanging out? Well, that it's it coexists. And it's an important part of life. But it's you might not want to put all your eggs in that basket, but also, equally, you might want to retreat, arrange your life, so that there's space for that. So you know, you can, you don't have to work full time, you don't have to, you know, be ambitious, I think we look so much to work as to give people fulfilment. And I think that's not a message that my kids get, not to say that you can't enjoy work. And that work, you know, I work in the environmental space and sustainability stuff, I think is, is really important. And so I want them to understand that responsibility. But also that, that creativity is an important thing, too, because we look so much to sport in Australia. And, and, and I know sport has a health dimension, but so did the arts. And you can pick up all those skills around teamwork by being in the theater or dancing or, you know, it's doesn't need to be so singular. Yeah, I had a conversation with the, for the podcast with a lady who is overseas, and we were talking about what happened during COVID. What stopped and what didn't stop. And I was just like, reflecting on the fact that even though they were locked down to the restrictions, hundreds of male footballers were allowed to move around this country like COVID didn't exist. But then on the other hand, every performer, you know, anyone who was doing something in the public eye that wasn't bored, just had the rug pulled out front of them, it was just really, really showing what caught our culture in Australia values. And it was really sad. Absolutely. And meanwhile, you know, 99% of the population are watching Netflix and consuming the culture that that artists produce is when I said to someone, like, everything that we touch, everything that we listen to, and we consume has been made by someone, a creative person has made that and I think we forget that, that. It's like, if we cut the arts off, you wouldn't have the radio, you wouldn't have the TV, you wouldn't have your Netflix, you wouldn't have music, you wouldn't have, you know, houses, you know, everything would start you wouldn't be driving a car because now we'll be creating, you know, beautiful cars, it would just everything would stop. And no one thinks about it in that way, like the government said. It's yeah, it's hugely disappointing. And I think that valuing of not only sport, but male sport, yes. Is just makes it particularly disappointing particularly, you know, given the role models that sports men often playing, there are a lot of issues that I think the creative types are Uh, you know, more across. You don't see them in the paper, you know, upon sort of sexual assault or harassment charges and those sorts of things, or sitting sitting in hotel rooms, snorting cocaine or something. I don't know. Sorry, maybe maybe they're doing it, but we just don't know. better at not getting caught. That's right. No, honestly, it really has been a massive eye opener, and not in a very nice way. Would you do you have anything else that you wanted to share? Like what you've got coming up? I mean, you mentioned that you've got like your official launch? Do you want to share? Sort of? I think I've got a few festivals there'll be at I could share about Yeah, so I will be at Queenscliff and Williamstown writers festivals at those. I'm talking with Tony Jordan, who is an author that I'm a huge fan of. So that feels like a very special moment. And I'm also going to Bendigo, where I will be thinking a session with Kate talking about the first time podcast, I think we're doing a live recording. Oh, cool, beat a lot of fun. And so those are coming up in May and June and the details will be on my website. Awesome. That is so cool. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just been so nice. So nice. So nice to think about creativity and kids. Like this feels like the podcast version of Rachel's book. That's incredibly flattering. Thank you. I think that's what we need. Like it has a bigger impact on women than it does on men to adventive children. Absolutely. Yeah. He's good. Keep up the good work. Likewise, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Sarah Broekensha Australian actor and producer S1 Ep18 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Brokensha is an actor and producer from Eight Mile Creek, South Australia, and a mother of 2 boys. Acting since the age of 23, Sarah has performed numerous times with Patch Theatre Company , including an off-Broadway season in New York City. She performed in Mutzenball which was awarded the 2008 Green Room Theatre Award for Best Cabaret Ensemble, Other shows include Ruby Bruise , Emily Loves to Bounce , Me and My Shadow, Yo Diddle Diddle and The Girl Who Cried Wolf. Her film and television credits include Wanted Season 3 , Wolf Creek 2 and Rabbit (feature film). Sarah created her own production company, Control Party Theatre , and received rave reviews for her one woman show "The World is Looking for You" in August 2021. In addition to all this she runs a farm with her husband Liam, which incorporates a free range egg farm The Splendid Egg We discuss how covid has levelled the playing field in the theatre industry, how important support for expectant and new mums is in the industry in keeping your sense of identity, and building resilience in her children, and herself. Connect with Sarah here More info about The World is Looking For You Connect with the podcast here Audio of the promo video for The World is Looking for You that appears in the intro, is used with permission Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... oday on the podcast, I would like to welcome Sarah Brokenshire. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's great. So you are an actor, which is exciting. I haven't had an actor on my show yet. So, welcome. Thank you. I feel honored to be the first. Yeah. So tell us about yourself how you got into being an actor and share anything else that you'd like to around that? Yeah, okay. Well, I think I was I loved acting or the drama at school, high school, I guess. And then I didn't quite have the confidence, I don't think to audition for drama schools at that stage when I was 17. So I kind of put that aside and I went traveling, went skiing, I was kind of snow ski instructor actually, and then did like a business degree and did all sorts of other things. But really, ultimately, it got to a point where all I was thinking about was having a go having a crack at acting and, and so finally, when I was, it was it was when I was about 2024 2423 24, I finally plucked up the courage and started auditioning for drama school. So then I went to drama school. In had the best three years, I've had the best time and then as a mature age students, so everyone else was kind of 1718 and I was very old, 24 year old. I felt very old looking back now. That um, and then yeah, and then I left drama school. I finished there in 2004 and just been kind of slowly chipping away doing just getting gigs where I can and not experiencer independent theater and working with a lot of the professional theatre companies in Adelaide mainly spent a couple of years in Melbourne and then made the odd decision to move regionally. Which was really weird way has been the best thing. All my career. It's a very interesting journey for me, but to be leaving early. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. And you've brought it up. So I'll ask you now have you said it's really good for your career of being in my Gambia which is 500 kilometers away from Adelaide 500. Club. Know, but how, how is that so good? I think initially, it was actually was quite hard. But it made me become a bit more resourceful made me think about what I kind of work I wanted to make I wanted to be a part of. And when things were quite quiet, I kind of went alright, well, maybe. How can I make the work come to me? How can I get I'd made some really good I spent a good 10 years in Adelaide making a really great network of creatives and friends that were doing amazing things. And then I looked for avenues where I couldn't bring them to me or yeah, how can I open up an opportunity that maybe I'm not, you know, outside of the box, and that's kind of where that started. And and I mean, it's not it doesn't all happen really quickly. That's happened but I've been here for 11 years. And now I'm starting to get quite busy but it's taken, you know, taken it's a slow burn definitely. That's interesting, too. I guess that would also be It's really beneficial for us as audiences in regional areas to be able to maybe get shows that we wouldn't get here because the main actor is from here. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one or the other. And also, when I got invited kind of created down to me, I've also tried to have opportunities where I get them out into the community. So we, and it's also been a really good way for me to an inroad into my community in a way as well, it's been a really good way for me to kind of understand where I live and get to know the people that surround me. But, yeah, definitely, like, I think the more Yeah, I think more professional artists seem to be kind of leaving the cities. And I think that definitely draws those kind of different shows and works and performances, whatever, out of the city. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was gonna ask you to share with us some of the shows that you've been in, I know that I had a ticket to come and see you in the world is looking for you. And then my son broke his arm that night, so I couldn't. Stressful, I've actually very disappointed because I've had wonderful, wonderful feedback about that show. So I don't know how we're ever gonna get to see Do they ever? Do they record them? Like, yeah, it often doesn't translate quite as well. But we did get a really beautiful, archival recording in Adelaide, actually, an amazing filmmaker kind of came in and took a few different, got a few different cameras in there. But I think hopefully, we'll get to do it again, down here, I only got to do it three times and to very small audiences, which was intentional, to keep it very intimate. But I think I would like it just was over so quickly, in such a, I guess this work was very personal, and had a lot of my personal story in it. And then to be able to do it to my local community was was so humbling and profound for me, that I just selfishly want to have that experience again. It was just, it was really very grateful to have had that moment in time. Yeah. No, I want you to do it again. So I can say it. Yeah. So front row ticket. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you'd had some of your own personal story. So how did that come about? Were you involved in actually like brushing it? Or how how did that come about? Um, I went long story is that when I first moved back here, I was definitely a bit of a loss of what to do and thought I had isolated myself from my creative community I kind of initially I thought I possibly made a mistake in terms of career not not in terms of family because I'd moved back to be closer to family to for limb, my husband and I would start a family together. But I did feel quite isolated from Adelaide and in Melbourne and thought maybe I'd made a mistake, but in that regard, but then I just kept getting these little invitations from the regional funding body country out to say and they kind of one of them kind of heard that I had moved from Adelaide to or from and to Matt Gandy. And so he just kept sending me these little invitations to meet up with someone just to talk about this or come to Adelaide for the fringe and meet some other regional artists and so slowly, I kind of, and then I kind of got the courage, I guess, which is sounds a bit strange, but the courage to have an idea that in my mind that I kind of put out there usually I just perform other people's ideas or, and so I applied for a grant to develop a show with a director, friend of mine, Daisy Brown, she's this incredible director that we've worked together on a few shows in Adelaide. And so we applied for funding to commission, an amazing writer Finnegan Cucamonga to come and work with us. So I didn't write the show. Thank goodness. I am. So this is part of that, that process of who are the people that I'd like to sit in a room with and work with. And it was Daisy and Finn, and, and Mario, who Daisy, Mario, and I have a company to get a fairly company together. And we all want to work with those people. And I had just had an idea, which was a, an article that I'd found in a, based on an article I'd found on Facebook essentially used before. And so I got the got the funding. And I think you've got to come down here to Adelaide, Gambia, and we sat in a room for a week, and talking and talking talk. And then we did that, again, we probably had a four week rehearsal process over a year. And then we just started from there. And we it was a four year process. play that. Yeah. It was a big one. And it was meant to happen in last year, but it got postponed because COVID But there was almost a blessing. I think that yeah, and so and, and why I wasn't really sure what it was going to be none of us were when we started talking. And then it's just kind of evolved over evolved over four years and became this one woman show which wasn't my intention, either, because that's terrifying. It ended up being Yeah, this this. Yeah, this is theta work that we're very proud of. Oh, yeah. That's, that's no, I really have to say it was on stage with the composer he, he played live. And then we had this amazing vocalist as well. So she was part of the EU, I think to what maybe I can like start a petition to get it back. So other things that you've done? I know, with my connection with childcare, you've done some work with the patch theatre group, they do shows for children. Yeah, tell us the other things that you've done over? Yeah. Yeah, I've done a lot of work with patch theatre, and I actually do a lot of work with them over my presidency. Yeah, so that kind of saved me a little bit, in many ways. Like, it kept me kind of, in the, in the, with my finger, it felt like my finger was still on a pulse of some description. Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm sure you understand as well, when you when you have start having kids. It's just, it's hard to kind of, you know, still figure out who you are amongst the midst of motherhood and beautiful mess in some in some respects, I guess. But you do. It's hard to kind of, you know, there's a life that was and then you as another kind of just trying to figure it out. And somehow I got to kind of keep a little bit of my artistic identity alive at at that stage, which I think was very crucial to my feeling. Like, I could still do it. I was still an artist still. Yeah. And so I kept my head above water a little bit. So patch I did, I got a pet like 10, or maybe even more than 10 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to start working on two different pet shows. They'll call them. Emily loves to bounce, and me and my shadow, which is two beautiful, beautiful shows that just happened to have these amazing tours and I got to tour with them every you know, once or twice a year. You know, back when we could go overseas and got to go to you know, travel to New York and perform in New York with a little two year old in tow and Oh, yeah. And also while I was pregnant, they kind of would shift rehearsals so that, you know, I could still do rehearsals before my due date and because you're gonna have some times when, when you're acting you feel when you get job. You feel like what I did, I felt like when I found out I was pregnant. I felt like if I told them, you know, that might be the end of that gig, no other jobs in sight. And yeah, so there's all this. Yeah, but something you know, both times when I was pregnant I had patched up and they kind of would go out. No worries, let's just move this here and there. So you can still be, we still want you to be part of the soul and how they will kind of crash into my ceiling. valued, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a bit more than just jobs. I guess. Now that looking back on that. acting jobs hilarious. And then, yeah, so. And then I've just done a few little tiny TV roles and things like that, where, where I've been able to, and they've been amazing, and, and just basically, I'll take any job I can get. Like, I'll do whatever, I'll do anything. Identity? Yeah, so you mentioned there, how crucial and really valuable that wasn't being able to keep doing what you love doing, rather than having to stop while you're pregnant? What about when, when you first had your first child? Did you have a break at all, then? Or were you able to just sort of keep, keep going? I guess, I kept going by the day, the shows are fairly, you know, sporadic. So there was long periods of time where there wasn't much happening, or there were periods of time where I wasn't sure if there was anything in the pipeline, you know, and then something would come up, and it'd be okay. And we'd kind of boy, me, I guess for a bit and then. So it's that old kind of, you know, it's never, you never know, really what's happening and what's coming up next. And, you know, so that job insecurity that comes with being an actor or creative, probably. But, um, so it was definitely a struggle. And then I guess, you know, for me, I have to, usually for the most part, but go to Adelaide, usually to work. So there's that added kind of stress of added stress of having to figure out what to do. Whether to, yeah, how to make that work. Because I will often desperately feel like I wanted to do that job. You know, because you hardly know when you're going to get the next opportunity or, or, yeah, but also trying to look after little tiny babies or, like, some of the patch touring I did, I did these big tourism. So Liam would come with me for a few weeks, and then taking with his mum. And so my mother in law would come and tour with me for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and so it always involved having a very good support network around me. And that was kind of the part of the reason for coming home as well was because I knew that there would be that support network is when my mum lives here. My sister and her. Her husband, they moved back here about six months before I did and we're very close. So yeah, having having that support has been crucial. Absolutely. I wouldn't have been Yeah. Tell me about your children is nearly 10 Finnegan and Fergus, he is seven, seven coming up seven and a half, two and a half years apart. Of course I am very fond of them. And I think they're very amazing. And I printed in funny and, and yeah, I've luckily just been able to either bring them along on tour or have them in rehearsal rooms when required or, you know, and they, they've loved kind of growing up in that, that little world. And I'm working on a children's show just finished a little bit of a rehearsal now and we're doing a bit more rehearsal in December and we need a test audience. That six kids so they're going to come in and be our test audience. I feel very smug about that. Cool huh. So they work just as well. Do they like to have a bit of a go? Yeah, I don't know. I think it seems like to me oldest might have a guy but yeah, I don't know. This guy doesn't know, folks too keen to get up in front of people. But I think maybe maybe seen he's got a bit more of that. Or not that a lot of actors are kind of overt an extrovert. Actually, most of us aren't think but yes. Jimmy's got a bit of a flair, I think. Have you come across any other mums doing sort of similar thing to you that are able to keep working with the little ones or while they're pregnant? Um, yeah, I think it's becoming more and more. I don't know, like, commonplace. I think that your work around pregnancies and small children and it's kind of crucial now I think for theatre companies to be inclusive of mothers of tiny babies. So make those rehearsal rooms comfortable and safe for new mothers and things that I think it's becoming just normal now. Which is great. I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of friends in Adelaide that have babies that working in Adelaide. I don't know, so many regional artists, personally that don't have to leave home for you know, long stretches, which I've done a little bit of that which has been very challenging. Like I really appreciated the work and the experiences, but yeah, very, very challenging. For me and for Lee and my husband, as well. And. You also run a chicken not a chicken farm. It's an egg egg farm. Yeah. Well, I guess it's a we're trying to make it a regenerative farm basically, and so that the chickens are part of that ethos or that philosophy. So they we've only got a couple of caravans, I guess, they called but then sheds, mobile sheds, and we pull it around the paddocks. And chickens just cruise around wherever they want. And kind of basically fertilizing and sanitizing the soil in hopes that we don't have to spray and do all those kinds of things. And we have those beautiful Miranda dog Guardian dogs that look after them out in the paddock. So, you know, there's no fences or anything that I wander around and do it like that. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting been an amazing kind of little add on to the farm. So my, my family, I grew up on this farm that I'm living on now. And my husband is now running it, which is not something that we both really thought we'd be doing, like 15 years ago. We love it. And yeah, so the chickens, we've got this brand called the splendid age, and we sell these beautiful, I think it'd be passion free range eggs. And yeah, just as part of a byproduct of trying to create more diversity on the farm. So traditional farmers will like run other we run we run low prime land, we sell walls well across from that and then we have just some cattle from other neighboring kind of properties. So we look after cattle for other farms and you know trying to got a bit of a rotation of a few different animals through their property. Yeah. And I have read online that they the the chickens have so much space it's even beyond like the traditional what they classes it's like even more yeah just get back in. There's no other offenses to keep they're like Kelvin shooting but they can just walk through the under those or they can go wherever they like essentially, right at the beginning we have these kind of movable fences so we can teach them where to lay and where to sleep and things like that. But you in Yeah, and I can just walk anywhere they're like, I mean, obviously, they walk too far and then come back then it's it's on them if they caught my socks. Yeah, man, some of them just won't walk for case but um, yeah, no, no, no, we'll just kind of wander back to the caravans to roost at night. Yeah, I can go wherever you're like, really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's lovely. So you came to be easy, really? Like with a bit of a weird mix? Ah, okay. People like oh, look, that's the egg lady. I won't say. I won't say you're the egg lady. Egg lady. But it is a weird combination of kind of acting. And I quite like wearing a few different hats as long as I can have something creative in the pipeline, or yeah, just be able to kind of continue auditioning and things like that. Then I I really enjoy having such different hats. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have gone in COVID. Obviously, you've been able to put on you your big show. But like, you talked about auditioning in that? Or have you had to do lots of stuff online? Or has it sort of worked? Yeah, in a way, it's kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for people that don't live in the city. Because I mean, it was kind of hanging that way in the industry was starting to do a lot more self taping, for auditions and things like that. So it was kind of heading in that direction anyway, when rather than walking into a impersonal audition, you'd send in a tape and then go through all the tapes, and then pick the field that they want, and then get those people to come in. And now that's kind of the norm. And obviously, preferred method of auditioning is actually just sending you the tape. And because it's harder to get, you can't fly from Melbourne to Sydney, just, you know, for the day to do an audition. So it's, yeah, it kind of leveled the playing field a bit. And I kind of that isolation weirdly, for me, was minimized, I guess, or Yeah, so I felt more connected. People. I mean, and you know, it would go crazy. Like, people were zooming like crazy in the beginning, but I started connecting with all sorts of people. And creatives that were doing interesting things through zoom, and because everyone was like, well, right, well, how can we still connect with that? Yeah, that Zoom each other or? Yeah, can you send in a tape for this? And it's for me, it kind of was good in many ways. Cuz you probably you probably wonder I've got the chance to meet these people have opportunities if if it wasn't there, that like you said, it's got to tell its upside. Yeah, it definitely has its upside because I have been doing tapes for a little while. Now. I also feel quite comfortable doing that, but almost prefer going into a live or digital real audition because I get all not great. auditioning. I get nervous and you know, when you start talking in your head, like just stop talking. And you just keep going or go back. So I've had to like I have so much more control over a self tape audition, so I don't know concept of mum guilt. What how do you feel about that? Yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit. Navigating motherhood is, is tricky, that I definitely felt a lot of guilt I guess, but about starting going back to work about leaving the kids about leaving my family to go and do a theater job or, and whether it was worth it. And I think, mum got it, I feel like it implies that you've done something wrong, do like numb guilt. And I don't think that's correct. So I wonder if are thinking about it today, because I often feel guilt about not doing this because I'm doing this so you know, I'm doing an acting job. So I can't put as much energy into the farm and so it puts more pressure on them or so I'm feeling guilty all over the place. And, and that's the kind of I feel like I'm being that conditioning thing. So it's not just mom guilt, I don't think I just always felt a bit kind of like I should be in all places all the time. But I think I think I when you when I was going away a lot, I struggled with feeling guilty, feeling, I guess, stressed and stretched and, and then and just not being around. And Liam is just amazing. And being so supportive, he would say well, you know, is that I think he kind of stress to me that it's important that the boys see that you're doing what you love, I guess. And that maybe it's just about finding the right compromises. So your husband, Liam, he must be very supportive, to be encouraging you to keep keep doing what you love doing. And all my whole family right from the beginning. And I think that lame would always say look, because leading up to going away for a show, or just a couple of weeks before I just feel wretched and I feel sad, and I'd feel super guilty about leaving and that he would just remind me that it's a beautiful time for him and the boys to to have a different kind of relationship. Often leaves mum would come over with her partner while I was away to help. And then so then she'd have this different relationship with Liam and the boys than she would if I was here, which I thought was really a lovely thing to say and a lovely thing for me to be reminded of that. She Yeah, she gets to have this different relationship with with the boys while while I'm away. And that she loves that time. She because she doesn't get to see them often. She was encountering, like regional Victoria eight hours away. So and then they get to see me during my love, I guess, or they get to see me going to do that. I mean, they don't necessarily see the shows each time but they get to understand that I'm making a sacrifice to do the things that I love or making. And, and that yeah, it's just about trying to find the right kind of compromise because I think you need your own thing as a as a human and as a as a mum as a parent, but definitely as a mom you need your own whatever that is like even if it doesn't have to be work but and so to have your own thing you do need to compromise and sacrifice a little bit. That kind of relationship with your children or your husband and it's about finding the right compromise or the right balance I guess of sure feeling a bit guilty but also feeling that you Are you doing the right thing for you? I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's an that's it's always a struggle, it's never the same, it's time, it's always a different lead up to me leaving, it only happens a couple of times a year. If I have a good deal, it's, it's a couple of times a year. And the lead up is different every year as the kids get older to. Like, Finn, especially he really misses. Or he gets away, he kind of worked himself off as a lead up to me going away, but then he's finally gone. But so that anxiety, those anxieties are a bit different now for the boys leading up to because they can communicate how they're feeling. And they don't want me to go and this and that, and the other. But I guess that opens up opportunities to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that it is, although it is hard, it means I get to kind of do the thing that I love, but they also get to hang out with Liam in a different way. That's a really great way of looking at it too. It's stringer strengthening other relationships in your family unit, as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and lame. Duck put obviously, a lot of pressure on him, but and he really appreciates that kind of bond he gets with the kids that different when I'm around. This is the kind of mommy's boys a bit at the moment. And so on kind of the, you know, but when I'm out of the picture for a bit, he becomes the kind of parent I guess. Yeah, so how do you step into those different roles? And I hope it's building resilience as well, a little bit maybe what's building resilience for me? I miss them so much. And, and it's, it's tapping away, because I'm also constantly going, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing? It's only a theater show? Should I be home? Like all of that still going on? Even if I am having an amazing kind of time, you know, being in the rehearsal room, or something like that? And then do you tell yourself that it is worth it? Like, do you do it yourself? Then? Say yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that I am reminded, and my mom actually said, the last time because Oh, my God, I'm feeling really anxious about not being around. And it's just like, well, you know, if you just have to, you know, kind of weigh up. And if it's too much, like, if it's, if that's outweighing if you're, if you're miserable, and doing in a way during the show, then there's no point to doing that. So, but if you're, if you're, if you're happy, then and, yeah, then it's kind of it's worth it. I'm not like damaging my children. I just think it's wonderful though, for for boys, in particular, to say that a mother's a mother can be any, anything that they want to be to, like, the mother is the traditional role that they might sit might have seen, maybe the grandparents in a different way. But then mothers of today can can do whatever they want. And I think that's awesome for boys to say that that, you know, as they grow up their expectation of what, you know, their relationships might look like is, you know, endless. I suppose its boundless. It hasn't got these constraints that the previous generations would have had, I guess. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess when when I'm at home, I do we do tend to kind of fall into Liam's kind of out doing the labor on the farm, although I do come out and help and, and I tend to be them on that kind of nurturing and doing like book work and, and taking the score and doing those kind of almost, you know, those stereotypes, the stereotypical kind of role that we've kind of fall into which I don't sometimes I feel funny about that. I yeah, I agree with you that I think it's great for them to kind of see me Yeah. forging a bit of a path that's a bit tricky, as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just it's tricky and hard and as a performer, I think and an actor it's definitely a build resilience. Yeah. I get out pretty quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you would have to have pretty thick skin I suppose to, you've always putting yourself up for stuff. And you're at the whim of someone else to tell you whether you're good enough because or not, whether you're right for the role or not, but I don't think there'll be many people. Exactly, yeah, it's definitely pretty tricky. And I think that's part of the reason for starting to be a bit more rigorous in creating my own work is so that you can have some kind of control over what you're doing. And, and so you can still get your voice out there and your stories out there. And, and, and, you know, it's hard, like, I'm sure you probably feel the same when you like, write a song or or write an album, and then you've kind of put put your heart and soul into it. And then you just have to go, Matt, ego, what do you think? Why do you not I mean, like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's very, you're so very, very vulnerable situation to put yourself in and, and, yeah, sometimes when standing out, outside, just recently are standing out the front of the foyer after doing the show. And I'm just like, God, this is, I feel like I basically just kind of, you know, cut over my chest poured out my heart. And I just smoked it down in front of everyone for you to skate. You know, I was a bit late for a bit but like, God, it is. Yeah, it's thank God, people do it now. Like when you hear a piece of music that just like rips your heart out, or you see like, for me watching a theater show that can either punches you in the gut for the best. I love it so much. And so, you know, thank God, artists and people are creative, because for me, that's like, that's the stuff of life. But I'm not for everybody, I guess. But yeah, it does take a bit of Yeah, resilience and determination. And it's not really a choice is that you're just Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, it's just you just make you just have to. Yes, you are compelled to do it. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it's great. I have so much admiration for all of us and relishing myself. And yeah, I think it's just, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's why it's so hard for moms, you create, because of this, the sheer determination that you're going to do what you want to do, you're going to put out what you want to share, you're going to create what you want to create. But then you go, Oh, hang on a minute. There's these other people here now that I have to consider. And it's like trying to reconcile the two. Yeah, it's just, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel when you're kind of writing songs or, but I know that when I'm rehearsing or performing a show, especially leading up to opening night, or things like that, I find it very hard to be present. Because I'm always thinking about just feeling nervous, really, or you kind of consumed about the characters I'm exploring. And so it's a tricky balance to be kind of be present. With the kids walking something at the same time, but also, yeah. Enjoy the privilege. Yeah, it's, it's, that's a, it's a really hard one. There's the episode that came out today with Rachel, she said that she always tried to keep the two things really separate the, the parenting, and her art practice. And I think it's different. Because when you're actually, you know, you physically holding a paintbrush or physically holding a pen, you can go to this space and do it. But you're in this, here. And so then she she found that if she could get some time doing her art, then she could go right, that's done. Now I can go see my children, which works great, you know, for that sort of medium. But I find like, your mind can be really challenging because you've always got stuff going around in your head. Like, yeah, always there. And how do you switch that off? Well, your children have come over and said, Hey, what should we do this and you're going when I'm watching but my brains back here thinking about what I was really challenging just to but when I come in here to actually record something, that's the easy bit because I can go right I'm shutting the door. Give me 10 minutes to record. Yeah, it's all the other step the other times the hard, you know, yeah. And yeah, it's rattling around in here. And you just, you just want to grab, like, things will come to you in a second and you're like, Oh, hang on, hang on. I have to write this down. Yeah. Because the truth is Do you know? Oh, I don't know. It's just like, ah, yeah, heads looks like splitting. Yeah, I'd be I find it tricky as well. And because I, I spent a lot of time when I'm rehearsing and performing actually away from the family. So that's easier for that in that regard for to be able to kind of just concentrate on, on the show that I'm doing. Whereas I find now that I'm doing a bit more work here and in my Gambia at home, and it's actually really tricky. When you when you work go to work during the day, and then you have to come home and and come try and switch it off. So that's a real struggle for me, because I've kind of had an realize it was a bit of a luxury to be able to just get in that bubble, and, and kind of create and then not have to come home and parent that yeah, the really tricky part is trying to combine the two and, you know, I have huge admiration for, you know, a lot of my working actor friends in Adelaide that have to do that all the time, because that's tricky. Yeah. Just these endless challenges that we're faced with. Yeah, something comes up. Show that you've got coming up that you're working on the children show, how when's that sort of looking like it will have its opening and that sort of stuff? Yeah, so that's a company called the paper boats and theatre theater, Michael de Brown, who used to work at patch theater, so that when I was doing my shadow, and he was the artistic director there, so we've had a long kind of working relationship. He is developing a show with another creative down here called Kevin Clark. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So dancer musician, I feel like it's the triple threat. And he, so I'm working on a little show called Seven little wonders that will be performed, I think, as part of the Fringe Festival Matt gave me that. March. Yeah. So we're kind of slowly kind of developing. It involves like six little six kids on stage the whole time. So I've never it'll be an interesting and interesting experience, I think and so that's why we're starting we're gonna get a few test audiences in early but hopefully the the beautiful kind of, you know, little show for for kind of four to eight year olds. Oh, wonderful. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds Yeah, gag, gag just he plays all these different instruments. And I just kind of stand there and say words every now and again. But the fairy wouldn't have the show without your words. Thank you if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman H dwellest Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Dana Stephensen Senior Dancer with the Australian Ballet S2 Ep39 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Dana Stephensen, Senior Artist with the Australian Ballet Company and a mother of 3 children, including twin girls, At the age of three Dana began her dance training with Davidia Lind in jazz, tap, ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley before studying with the Queensland Dance School of Excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance Solo Seal. Dana joined The Australian Ballet School in 2002. In her graduating year she was seconded to The Australian Ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full-time in 2005. She has since enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Paris. At the end of 2008, Dana was awarded the Khitercs Hirai Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Dana was promoted to coryphée (a leading dancer in a corps) in 2010 and went on to win the Telstra Ballet Dancer Award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014 and to senior artist in 2018. In 2020 Dana took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company, at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with fiancé Lachy Gillespie AKA the Purple Wiggle . Today Dana shares her story of her experience with post natal depression and anxiety, and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world so we talk a lot about ballet! **This episode contains discussion around post natal depression and anxiety** Read more about Dana and follow her on instagram Dana would love you to visit : www.cope.com.au www.panda.com.au www.gigetfoundation.org.au Upcoming Australian ballet Shows Read and listen to the part of Swan Lake I was trying to describe Read the Sydney Morning Herald article Read about Wayne McGregor and Dyad 1929 Podcast - instagram / website Music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets Swan Lake, Peter and the Wolf, The Nutcracker and Giselle. Photo by Jeff Busby of Dana performing in the ballet The Sleeping Beauty. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast today. Danna Stevenson, Donna is a senior artist with the Australian ballet and a mother of three children including twin girls. At the age of three, Diana began her dance training with de Vidya land in jazz tap ballet and singing in her hometown of Brisbane. She later trained with Mary Heath and Sandra Ashley, before studying with the Queensland dance school of excellence in 2001, obtaining her Royal Academy of Dance solo seal, Donna joined the Australian ballet school in 2002. In her graduating year, she was seconded to the Australian ballet to perform in various seasons before joining the company full time in 2005. Since that time, she's enjoyed international tours to Los Angeles, New York, the UK, Auckland, Shanghai, Tokyo and Paris. At the end of 2008 Danna was awarded the catex HiRISE Scholarship, which enabled her to gain invaluable experience training with numerous ballet companies in Europe. Donna was promoted to Cara fee, a leading dancer in a core and went on to win the Telstra ballet dancer award later that year. She was promoted to soloist in 2014, and two senior artists in 2018. In 2020, Donna took what she thought was to be her final dance with the company at that stage 11 weeks pregnant with her twin girls with her fiance, Locky Gillespie, also known as the purple wiggle. Today Diana shares her story and her experience with postnatal depression and anxiety and how she used her ballet as therapy to aid in her recovery. I also indulge my own curiosity of the ballet world. So we talk a lot about ballet and music. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression and anxiety. The music used in this episode is in the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright, and is taken from the ballets of Swan Lake, Peter in the wolf, the Nutcracker. And Giselle, I hope you enjoy. Welcome, Donna, thank you so much. It's lovely to have you today. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have a chat. Yeah, for sure. So you're a senior artist, you've obviously been dancing ballet for quite a while. Can you tell us how you first got started? I started dancing when I was three. So my earliest memories really are of me being a dancer, obviously a little bit different to what I am now. But I think it is quite interesting that that's kind of where memory kind of starts to form for children, here and there. And so my earliest memories are of dancing. So I actually started because my sister was dancing at the time. She's two years older than me. And she had started a general jazz class at the local dance school with some school friends. Because she was really shy, really, really shy like hiding behind mom shy. So it was a way of kind of getting her into something social and something to bring her out a bit. Yes, it was parent watching week that week, and I went with mum. And I was sitting at the back and I just started, I just stood up and started joining in the class. And then they were doing cartwheels. And I just was all a part of it, basically. And the teacher came over to mom and said, Oh, I think this little one probably wants to have a go, you know, come around to the little little East class and other day. And I think it just started like that. And then quite quickly, I started the Stanford team. I was there five days a week, and then six days like, by that before I started school, probably a bit more. It was like, more is more. I just danced all the time. I was at school or I dance that was that was how it was. Yeah, right. So it was literally your sister got you into it, which is really cool. My sister got me into singing, like formal singing, like because she joined. And I wanted to do it too. So that's a really cool, so it's your sister older. Now she's younger. And I think that's why I wanted to do it. Because it was like, well, she gets to draw, I should be doing it. Because yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit ironic because my sister started doing a jazz class. And I started with that. And then I started taking ballet and tap, and then all the different, all the different things. And my sister stuck with that one jazz class a week until maybe she was 10. She would, she would get so worked up before it and we didn't know this until she was older that she would get so sick to her stomach about going to dancing because it was such a big deal for her to have people looking at her. And meanwhile, her little sister was just you know, couldn't get enough of it. Interestingly, Brie my sister Bree, she would have done so well in ballet. Yeah, I was very much metrical one. And then I found ballet to be my path a lot later. Whereas my sister, she would have actually loved ballet. And she says that now I wish I'd just done ballet, not jazz, because that's all out there. And yeah, a bit chunky. Whereas ballet, she's she actually would have loved the discipline. And the, you know, the teacher sets the exercise. And you do that, and it's a bit quieter? Not not so much like, like jazz hands in the spotlight kind of thing. Yeah. So then how did you get into the ballet side of things? Was it just something you were offered? And, and then you sort of just thought, I love this so much. I'm just gonna go with it. Yeah, it's quite interesting, because I think as a child, I am sure this is the case. For most children. I just love dancing. I didn't really, obviously there were the dance styles. But I didn't differentiate between what each one was, I just loved the whole thing. And then once I started doing istead, fits and being on stage and the lights and the feeling of that, and taking on a different character, it was all one in the same. Obviously, there's different elements to each sort of style, but I just loved all of it. So it wasn't until I was a teenager, and every time that musicals would come to Brisbane, I'm from Brisbane. So you know, once he went fame would calm or Chicago or whatever it was, we'd go and but also every time the Australian ballet would come, you know, on the Saturday matinee mum would take me to that. And that was a big event of the year too. So it all just kind of was coinciding, and I had no preference whatsoever, until as a teenager, you do start to need to take a bit more of a structured path if you are going to follow ballet, but my school at the time did video in Dance Center where I went when I was three, she she had never had a ballet dancer. So that needed more ballet training as a teenager because no one had kind of got that fire in their belly exams at the time. So I actually had to find some teachers externally to help me. And then I was an interstate associate with the Australian Ballet School, which is in Melbourne, which is the school that does feed into the Australian ballet company. And so that meant I could come down for a week, every year to do like a winter school. And when they came to Brisbane, we do a master class, but it was still just happening bubbling along. But then the audition came to do for the first level five year which is about 15. At the Australian Ballet School, the senior school is level six, seven and eight. That's like your finishing training. But they're just started a level five and that was half ballet half school. And so I auditioned for that and was very hopeful about getting in and I didn't get in. And I was really really disappointed. And I couldn't have said it at the time. But I think that was a really big catalyst in thinking I obviously really want to do this. It's not happening right now. And I, I think I really, I want that to be happening. So the next year, I went to a school in Brisbane called the Queensland at school of excellence, which was, again, half Valley High School, but a version of that in Brisbane, and auditioned again for the Australian ballet school the next year. Yep. And got in the next year, and then did my three years and then got into the company. Yeah, so yeah, that moment, it's like, the level of disappointment you felt made you sort of realize i, this is how much I want this. This is it's almost like, it's not great that you didn't get in, but it's almost like you needed that to confirm it for you to make you go right, I'm gonna go for this really, this is what I want to do. So I think so it was an probably a strong indication to that I needed to probably blinkers on a little bit. And just focus a bit more on that. Having said that, I was I loved my high school, and I loved my school friends. And I, I think that's something you know, I've always had, I have always kind of needed to have a balanced sort of life. I was never like a Betty bonehead. And I'm still not. But at the same time, I think I needed to probably think, Okay, well, if this is what you want to do, there's a few steps that need to be taken. And so I took those steps and worked really hard and I was very lucky to get in that next time. So then what what sort of direction did you Korea take from then after that, getting in there. So they strain bicycles, three years and then. So your final year, you start to do a lot more performing. And very fortunately, at the time, the company who's in the same building, so it's really special at the school, because you can't just walk down the corridor, and like, put your little face at the windows, and you see the company dancing and rehearsing and all your idols and like it's, you know, coming from Brisbane, and coming down into this world. It was so scary, overwhelming, amazing, exciting, just all of those things. And then to, to think and dream about getting to the other end of the corridor and getting into those company rooms one day. But yeah, at the time, when I was in my last year at the school, that company had, we're doing lots of different seasons, but there was quite a few injuries. So they needed some extra dancers. And at that time, they often seconded dancers from the school to go join that company. So they had a couple of us learn a particular ballet symphony and see, and then the next night I was on, basically, Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was like a baptism of fire. But at the same time, I feel like looking back at that age, you're so ready. And that's what you're training for. And obviously, that's an amazing opportunity. And then that opportunity turned into a longer opportunity. I danced with the company for almost all their seasons that year. And so I was very lucky to have the, the staff and obviously the artistic director at the time, David McAllister, he could see me across a whole year almost, as opposed to going in one day for an audition somewhere, they have no idea who you are, where you've come from any story. And you have to somehow impress someone in in a glimpse or in a half an hour class, then, you know, to this day, I still find that hard when people come into cars valets, I'm like, I don't even know what you want to see like, and that's fine. By this point. You're just like, I need this is what I've got. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, all right, then that's kind of the nature of the industry. There's still something that I I find quite challenging. But like I said, at that at that time of, you know, trying to get my first job, I was very fortunate to have a long audition process. And not for a second though, did I think I would get a job the following year, but then at the end of the year, when they gave contracts out, they gave two female contracts and two male contracts and I was one of the females. That was lucky enough Did you get a job with the company then? Yeah, right. So then that meant you're part of that, that room that you've been sort of peeking in and looking out for those years, that would have been incredible. It really is. It's, you know, there's so much looking up to in ballet, you know, you watch videos in such a different world now, with the internet and YouTube, but back in the day, you'd have back in the day. But so, but no, I would watch the same videos at the Australian ballet company every Saturday over and over, and over, and I knew everything they did inside out. And then he walked down once a move to Melbourne. And then he walked down the corridor and that person, right there real quick. So, yeah, it's, I think it's a really lovely thing. And there's substitution traditions in ballet that really need to move forwards. But there's certain traditions that are really lovely, like when you're doing the company, and there's a lot of respect, obviously, for the principles. And if they don't have a passport, and you're absolutely a first year, you do not take a spot at the bar. And some of those things seem a bit archaic. But I also think in our, our industry and our career, those people have worked to where they've got to, and they who we look to and the epitome of that. And I actually loved that. Yeah, it's like that level of respect that you can show someone's in that, like, we were talking before about being called a ballerina. That's a title that you've earned. And, you know, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, I guess all dancers feel differently about that. And that's a personal preference. But I don't feel that comfortable when people refer to me as a ballerina, because I'm not that, in my mind. I'm, for many reasons, I'm not that I'm a bit left field as a ballerina, but also, they're the people I look up to. They're the people who have earned that title as ballerinas of the company. And I've done a lot of amazing work, and I'm so proud of where I'm at, and the rain. COVID chi is something beyond my wildest dreams. But yeah, I even in like, you know, the smallest context when you know, even like, when a little girl calls me a ballerina like, Oh, I'm not quite I'm sorry. No, okay. Yeah, in my by myself, like, oh, that's, that's, that's those people. That's not me. Yeah, yeah, I can I just say that. It's, yeah, I think, like you said, there's probably a lot of things that can change. But I think there's nothing wrong with respecting people like you, like you the story that you've just outlined the amount of work that's gone in, you know, and there's people you know, that's what they do, they dedicate their entire life to their art. So I think there's, you know, there's a time and space for like, you know, some tradition, respect Yeah. Just while we're talking about that, I'll just mention quickly, my I went to school with two girls who went on to become dancers, dances with different ballets. I'm not sure if you know, Rachel Walsh, or if you've heard of Rachel, she was happy to fall. Yeah, we went through school together, up to I think she left you 10 might have been a last year in that Gambia. And then she went off to do her thing, which she's done, amazingly. And we've been chatting a bit. So we're organizing that she'll come on the show in the future, which is really cool. And another girl called, she's Lisa Robinson, and she went to Canada, I think, to do her dance, he or she ended up in Canada. She's there now. But it was just amazing that at that time, when you're when you're teenagers, you have no idea what these girls are doing what they're going through, you just go Oh, yeah, they're dead. They're dancing, you know, but they're, like you've described your whole world you switched on, that's your focus. And everything involved in that too. Like your, your way you eat, I suppose and the way you look after your body and the exercises you do and the training that you do. And here we are just you know, teenagers worrying about, you know, what the boys are up to or you know, it's just all different, different world. Like that's it. That's a really interesting point because I I think ballet dancers have to make certain decisions much earlier. You know, it would it's, it's comparable with elite athletes, but they have to make quite adult is an adult grown up decisions about what they'd like to do how they'd like to achieve it. But at quite a young age, I moved to Melbourne, I was 16. But I know there's other kids, I'd say, Yeah, you know, at 1415. And they might be in the boarding house or, you know, different, different home setups. And I can't comment on anyone else's experience, obviously. But you look back and you think, oh, that's, that's actually a massive deal. But at the time, and this is, this is the sort of people we are, who are who are drawn to what, to who are drawn to doing what this what we do, you have to be so driven, and dedicated, and focused, single minded focus and determined, resilient, they're all the skills that you're building up in your teenage years, which is not often I'd say, traditionally, the years you're building up those things. Oh, and, you know, staying open to things and so you, you did, probably there's a sense of isolation in that. I mean, I had great school friends around me who they were just like Danna does ballet. And that's really great. I know, other people have had different experiences by being so different. Obviously, a lot of men in the company, I've had lots of bullying experiences, I got a little bit about how small I was, and how, how focused I was, I guess, but I had really good people around me and I have a really amazing family who's not involved in ballet at all, really grounded. And it was all a bit of a new experience for me. And I felt a bit protected in that honestly. But yeah, it is it is. It feels like you're a bit ahead in many ways, at that age, because you have to be, but that's what prepares you for the career you're about to have. And to be able to handle the pressure that you have to at really quite a young age. Would you say, Don't put words in your mouth, but I've never been in the ballet world. Is it? Like I don't want to say cutthroat but is it a hugely intense? Like you talked about the having to audition? Like is there so much pressure to keep yourself at a certain level or and you're competing with other people all the time? Or if I got that really not on the mark? No, you're pretty spot on. What's probably a bit less expected is that it's it's a lot more nuanced than that in terms of it is cutthroat and it's competitive. And in a company, and I've been in a company for 18 years now, which I can't believe I still feel like I'm 16 It's a bit like that, I feel like you just keep you a little bit young somehow, in some way. But anyway, I do. It's a really interesting competitiveness. Because essentially, you're vying for the same roles all the time. And you're Korea is in is ideally solely in your hands and your work and the effort you're putting in and energy and your commitment, and your training, your resilience and your reliability. There's so many skills that are in your control. But there's also a really big one, which is someone else's opinion, and that at the end of the day, sometimes trumps everything. And I think a good thing to remember with that, though, is that across your career, you will be on both sides of that, you'll be on the side where someone comes in and just thinks you're the bee's knees. And they'll then there's the times that you're on the other side of that, which is someone who's not interested in you at all. And so everyone has their moments either side. And you know, you might have a couple of bad years where you feel like nothing's going your way. And trying to stay motivated in that time and internally driven and internally motivated, is very challenging. And I think that again, we move into this career quite young, I was performing at 17 with the National Ballet Company, which you know, there were younger people than that even so, especially young, but at that age, you're dealing with quite a lot of pressure and competitiveness. And you know, I've got children and you know, what would you want to tell your children You're perfect as you are, you know, just go out there and do a good job. Just work hard, and that's the most important thing. How do you tell someone or they just don't want Like, how you look? Yeah, like, that's just always, you know, obviously, in ballet, there's, you know, a lot of scope to talk about body types and body aesthetics. And the Australian ballet is really healthy in terms of that. There's, we all look really different. There's lots of different heights, and different body styles and different ways of moving, which ultimately, is the most important thing. But there is a lot of versatility in our company now. But sometimes it really is, they don't like how you look, or how you can't, which is the way you personally express yourself. So it's pretty heart wrenching sometimes because they're like how someone else does it more. And some, sometimes just thinking about almost as clearly as as brutal as it is, is the best way. Like, that's how they're doing it. I'm doing this over here. And as you get older, and more experienced, and I think weed life experience, obviously kind of boosting you. On all sides, you realize that this is all you have is what you are and what you bring. And if it's not your turn right now, it might be your turn next month. Yeah, I'm, that is such a incredible way of looking at things like that. It's so pragmatic. It's just an I personally, it took me a long time to get to that point with music, because it's, it's the same thing people like what you're doing or you don't, and it's you, you're putting yourself out there. And I got to a point. Like I used to do a Stanford to for singing. And one year I just thought, why am I doing this, I'm letting one person's opinion, decide how I feel about myself. And I just thought, I'm not doing this anymore. I don't, I don't want to feel like this. And I just stopped doing it. And then I can sort of like put myself up for different awards or put things online. And I feel like, if it's not my turn, it's someone else's turn. And that's they need that right now in their life. And it's become a really great way of me being able to just go, Oh, that's good, that's nice and not be worried about stuff anymore. Which took a long time, like, I'm nearly 44. So it's like, it's a thing that you have to go through, I think because no one can sit you down and say, right, this is how you should feel about failure. I think it's something you have to sort of work through yourself. But I love that I really love that the way I've described that. I think experience, you need experience on both sides of that coin. And you know, another thing in the company, you join the company, and we all have, we all have a certain level of talent that makes us ballet dancers. And then beyond that we all have our unique talents. And some of us, I'm a really good jumper, for example, because of how I'm built and I'm really athletic. But my whole life my whole career, I've wished I've looked like the other girls who are so beautiful and so elegant. And just total ballerinas and I have lots of energy, and it serves me really well sometimes. And other times I hold over a lot. I've just come to embrace and everyone's like Dan is on the floor again. Because I've gone through obviously different phases with what I've felt like on my own failures or weaknesses. Yeah. And of course, as a younger dancer, there is something so much about your work ethic. If I just work hard enough, I can change that. And there is merit to that, about working on our weaknesses, but ultimately, focusing on our strengths and amplifying them actually, is so much more. I don't know, it's you're so much more yourself, if that's what you're focusing on what you're putting your attention to. I spent, you know, my early years in the company were quite tricky. And I was having battles with, with what eventually became Hashimotos thyroiditis. So thyroid disease, which was undiagnosed for a long time. Yeah, and my body's a lot and being a professional ballet dancer and having a really low it's an autoimmune disease. But yeah, it's, it was really challenging. And so I was finding it very hard to have confidence in anything about myself and then when it came to my dancing, I was still in that mindset of if I could just make my legs look nicer if I you know, I've got really strong feet but they're not aesthetically beautiful like a lot of the other girls like I don't know, how about it, it's a really honor. Some other people probably say that to which I say hats off to you. But yeah, I just if I could just make that better. Yeah, my career will be better. But ultimately, it's it's not it's your career is going to be what it is. And they're, they're in a ballet camp, there is always room for a dancer like me. And that took time and maturity to realize there is someone has to be the person jumping, someone has to be the one moving fast. I'm a bit messy. And I'm always working on my footwork and trying to clean things up. But someone has to do that. And once I felt confident in that, that was something I could do that those other girls were like, how do you do that? I was like, I don't know, I just get in the air man, like, Oh, I'd love to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to stand still like you is a place that can be a place for everyone. And sometimes when it comes to casting things swing your way. And other times, they don't you realize your opportunities out there, you make the most of them. And then when you can see maybe there, what's tricky in the company, there might be a season you're not in very much, or there's not a lot of work for you. But you never know what's coming up next. And you know, often we do know what's coming up, but you never know what your next opportunity might be. So if you drop the ball, and think, Oh, this is my, this is my season where it's a bit average, or I'll just won't bother. Ya know what Julie, you might miss next because you're not ready. And that's these are the things that I have no doubt, I can say 100% have have created the opportunities that have actually made me and made my career not because, you know, I was built a certain way, being in the right place at the right time has has been very good to me. Yeah, and that you're right. It's like, it's you unless you're, unless you're ready for that opportunity when it comes? Well, actually, this person sort of slackened off a bit this year, because, you know, they didn't get so many roles. And we can see that. So we'll go to the next person, you know, so yeah, you've got to, you've always got to be motivated and still working and which would be intensely draining. Like it sounds like, you know, it's a full on life. Like you're just, I mean, obviously, lots of people do it. So it's sustainable. But from my point of view, someone who's not a dancer at all, and not highly motivated. It really it is and again, as a young student, you don't, it's what you want to do. It's your passion, it's your drive, you love it, you can't imagine not doing it. And you're willing to give up almost anything to do it. And it's so enjoyable. Like, I love dancing. I know last night I was on stage, and my old nanny actually was watching and she hadn't seen me dance after all these years. And she said, Oh, gosh, it just looks so much fun. And I said to her, I was like, I just have a stupid amount of fun when I'm on stage. And I know I've got my little kids at home, and I hope they're asleep and they ate them. And then I just had this. I know it's not a guilt, like guilty pleasure. I just, it's just so fun. Like, and I'm just lucky, I still enjoy what I do so much. But it is a lifestyle. It's it's not. It's not it's not a job for us. And I think, again, I can't speak for everyone else. But if it becomes a job, I don't think it's right anymore. Because it is so much more than that. And you have to put so much more into it. And in terms of just your hours, you know, we work really long hours, unusual hours. We rehearse in the days. We train every day, six days a week. We have Sundays off but we try and live every morning. We rehearse every day. We perform at night, but we don't just go in for the show at night. We train in the morning, rehearse show, two shows Wednesday two shows that day. 200 shows a year. It's yeah, it's the Australian ballet is one of if not the top amount of you know shows per year in terms of ballet companies. Yeah. Which takes a certain amount of resilience and managing your body and your mind over that time becomes a really important skill that you learn. It takes years to learn how to manage that. Yep, yeah. Can I help? Sorry, we were really doing a lot of talking about your ballet, which is dope, we will get to your family, it's okay. I'm just so honored to be able to speak to you. And I really want to squeeze everything out that I can because it's just really exciting. Like I said, my exposure to ballet, like with the girls that I grew up with, it was it was a world that I knew nothing about. I loved it. And I love watching ballet, it's just blows my mind how graceful and incredible it is. So I just want to ask you lots of things. I'm more than happy. You know, it's a lot of people find it quite a you know, it is this mysterious kind of world. And I'm, I'm always wanting to encourage people to ask questions. And it's, you know, there's obviously that version of ballet people often think about in their heads. And often it's a bit different to that. Or then there's the other one, which is like, Oh, is it like Black Swan? And it's like, well, there's little bits that are absolutely true. I'll be the first to tell you that it's not quite like that. But I think it's lovely that people are interested in in what we do. It's always a lovely thing. Awesome. Well, that's good. You can indulge me a bit longer than Absolutely. All right. So I'd like to ask you what your favorite roles have been that you've played and why. And I didn't even I didn't even give you a heads up. I was gonna ask you this. Sorry. No, that's, that's really I like being on the spot. Oh, that's really tricky. Because I'm, I mean, I've been so lucky. fortunate to have had such a wide range of roles and opportunities. Yeah, and across, you know, the starting Valley does a lot of strict classical ballet performances, you know, your swan lakes, you're not crackers does owls, kind of structurally classical ballet, Sleeping Beauty. And then we do a lot of contemporary modern work. And usually the year it's kind of somewhat, the balance is somewhat split. And I have had opportunities in kind of both sections of those repertoire groups. And it's kind of like when I was younger when people said, oh, did you like jazz or ballet? And I just liked it all. Yeah, it's the same thing. In what I do. Now, I just love it all. There's not one that's better than the other. And even as I get older, often people lean one way or the other. And I just, I just love it all, because I love dancing. And they all bring different challenges. I will say though, often certain roles at certain times in your career do seem to feel like they mean, even more. The one of my favorite, like all time, classical roles was Giselle. And I was very lucky I, I was able to dance the title role of Giselle, which I would never normally be casting because there's so many other girls who are so beautiful at it. And that's just the nature of it. Sometimes you don't get it, you know, you might get a go of all those girls weren't so good. But also, you know, stylistically, you know, some people might not cast me in that role, but it came out it came about because it was the regional tour of the Australian ballet goes out. And that year on I had my son Jasper a few months earlier. And I was talking with David McAllister, my director at the time about coming back and the the main company, we're actually going to London on tour then. And I was like, not up for that. Yeah. Actually, this is really great opportunity, if you would like the regional tour is taking out Giselle, and I think you'd make a really lovely Giselle, would you like to do it and this is like the Holy Grail of ballet. And I'm like, How can anyone say no like, like coming back after maternity leave? You know, talk about like not working your way up. It's like, it's the most incredible ballet role. It's the romantic ballet period. So it's not, you know, it's your long kind of soft tutus. Not your sticky outy. tutus. Yeah. And it's it's a beautiful ballet about this young peasant girl who falls in love. And then she realizes that he's actually a royal and he's engaged to someone else. And she has a weak heart anyway, and her she basically, cat, you know, goes into such a state and her heart gives way and she, she dies. And then the second act is the ethereal, otherworldly spirit world. And so she is one of the willies. They're called. And this beautiful quarter ballet scene, that's the big roof of the company, create this amazing atmosphere. They're like ghosts. And so Albrecht, who was the man she fell in love with comes to find her grave and her spirit. And she basically saves him because the Queen Miyata, Queen of the willies. So queen of all of these, you know, these girls who were jilted before their wedding days, they dance the man to death, anyone who dares enters the forest, you know, after dark, and Giselle with all her compassion and forgiveness dances until sunrise with our breaks this love of hers to save him. And, you know, it's a role that is so intricate, in terms of its dancing, but more than anything, just the story is so, so beautiful to tell, and you can really make your own mark on it. And to cut back after having a baby at that point, that role was so, so perfect and cathartic for me to dive into. Because there was just a whole new level of me that was able to have that absolute 100% all in love, compassion, forgiveness, I'll do anything for you know, that you have to have a child, that's just, you know, I don't even know how it comes out. But it's just a part of you. And I had this beautiful art form this beautiful music, this atmosphere and to just, you know, pour that all into so the timing of that roll, that roll in itself is is a gift to any ballet dancer or ballerina. Yeah, it's a real ballerina role. And, you know, I haven't had a lot of those ballerina moments, I could say, that might have been my one. But it was the timing of that, particularly that was so special in every single show. It's not about you know, if you got all your face positions, or if your turns were perfect. It's about, you know, your connection with your partner the atmosphere you create, and, and every show, I walked away just so happy and proud. And so touched and humbled by being able to do that at that time. You know, and I was like camping before the show. Yeah. And, you know, always bath in Jasper and then would rush to the theater and go into this other world. But that whole time did have this really special magic. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I will assume you. You've actually answered a question that I was going to ask you later about, because there's so much acting involved in your dancing. I think I think a lot of people realize that, that that's such a massive part of what you do. The way that you'd approach a role changed after you became a mom and you've just answered that without even asking it. It's just Yeah, I love I really think, again, that's a craft that you you have to learn across your years. You know, you come to as a young dancer and you're you're dancing and you know, you might do a bit of like, acting in terms of the ballets you're putting on it students, but that is a craft that you you learn and you know, I've been so fortunate that I've grown up in the company watching these incredible ballerinas and several of them were became mothers while they were still dancing, and I could see that transformation. I don't know how well they've had babies, but just the depth that the expression, the naturalness, the freedom, like there's so many things that come out of that, but you know, you sit there and you watch all those full rehearsals for the whole company in a room, running all these big ballets. And you you watch over the years how many We'll do those things. And when you get a chance to be able to wish I had at that point in time to put all of that in to a role. That was, yeah, such a magical time. Obviously, then there's valleys that don't have a story. And so, in terms of, you know, you're not acting per se, but you might, you know, there's obviously always envision in your mind that you're thinking of, or, you know, a vision the choreographer wants you to create, or an energy or a feeling or something in those kinds of contemporary works. And, you know, conversely, that's what I also enjoy about the contemporary repertoire that we, you know, we perform, is those kind of really physical, the expression is the physicality and the physical physicality almost has a persona, and you have a persona, when you're, you're dancing that even if there's not a story, yeah, that's your input, you embody those emotions or whatever the you're trying to get out. Yeah, yeah. And often, you know, obviously, ballet. For me anyway, the music is, it's the marriage of the ballet and the music, it's, that's when it comes to get it that alchemy, that's, that's what's, you know, goes across that, you know, the fault lines, that's what the audience takes on that their experience is that, you know, Alchemy that's happening in front of them, and that can be equally as powerful. In a contemporary work, I was very lucky I, when a choreographer call Wayne McGregor came out from the UK. He's a very, very renowned choreographer. And at the time, he just started as a resident choreographer at the Royal Ballet. So he was a contemporary choreographer, and then he started to move to the ballet space of it. And then not long after lots of ballet companies across the world, we're grabbing him to, like get a work by Wayne. Yeah, we were quite early in the piece, really, at that sort of time, we're able to, somehow now became, and he created a work called diet 1929 here, and that was a time he came into the room to obviously cast the ballet, we're in class, and I was quite young at the time, or maybe 24 or something, and, and I knew his work, I was like, so cool to be here. But you know, like, how do you how do you get in it? Yeah, you standing there doing fundraising? Like what can you see in my Tonberry, that's not very good, because I'm not very good at them still, that might show you that I or so want to be in your way. Anyway, really, you know, often ballets a cast from the hierarchy. So from the top of the company down, I was still in the quarterback at the time, which is, you know, the big ensemble down the bottom. But not everyone cast like that he came in, and he looked at the whole company as a whole. And it didn't matter where you were. Yeah, I think, anyway, very fortunately, got cast and his ballet, and then that ballet across my time. You know, that was such a, you know, working with him at that time was like groundbreaking for all of us. We've never worked with someone like this. He's so fast. He's so smart. He is. He does a lot of work with brain science and how he puts that into, you know, ballet and art a lot of people wouldn't even understand but for him, like, that's how he creates it. You watch his brain work. And you think, wow, I just like, you just see all the neurons firing. It was a really exciting time. It felt very, like we're in the moment cutting edge. And I, I was very fortunate to learn a spot in that. And so I was performing that and then across my career, every time we've done that ballot, then moved on to a different spot. Yeah, right. So for different spots in that valley, you know, we took it to New York. And you know, I did a different spot in that. And so I've kind of grown up in that valley. So that's one of my favorite contemporary pieces. Yeah, that's been my journey as well in terms of, I stepped up into, you know, different roles. And then my last show before I had my twin girls actually was in that valley in a white leotard, which is absolutely what you want to be in when you're pregnant with twins at 11 weeks. It's all it actually has been saying in about a month. So Valley mountains that you just, you cannot time it any better. But you are usually when you're, you know, early, you know, first trimester dancing, if you're pregnant, you have to be in a flesh leotard or while you're tired because it always happens like that. Nobody's like a free free dress or like something coming it's just always happens to fall in the most exposing of all so yeah, but same time that I knew that those were my last shows and I actually thought they were my last shows ever. And so to for it to be in that work. That particular work was really special to me, and I've done Lots of contemporary works. And they're all fantastic too. And they could so easily be my favorites. Yeah, but the timing again and what that whole valley and journey meant that yeah, that's a really special suspicion yeah I don't want to talk too much more about your ballet. I do want to, but I'm gonna make myself stop. But you've mentioned the music. And it's like, I absolutely that is. I don't want to say it's my favorite part of ballet because of course, the dancing is pretty awesome. But like you said, the way that it's all wrapped up together, and the costuming and everything and my favorite bit ever was in Swan Lake when because, you know, you've got that theme that dad did it, it did. I don't know what any of this is called. So just go with me here. When it turns when it changes at the end. And it's goes from being in a minor key tool, major key. And it's just it gives you goosebumps, it's like it just taught it tells you the story through the music, they don't even have to tell you what's happened to this character, this transformation. It's like you just hear in the music. And it's just that moment, every time I hear it, I just go Oh, survive. And to rely, you could just imagine how you How could you contain yourself when you're actually onstage doing that, like I always think like, it could just be like envelopes in it, you're just your whole body and your senses, it just be like charged, it'd be amazing. It's such a full body experience, I think and we are so used to that. And so it did that. And it's an incredible feeling, you know, some of the, the scores we dance to and, you know, some scores, you know, like the the big Tchaikovsky's or, you know, it's, you've heard them over and over. And I bet you've rehearsed. And I went and stopped going back. I can't stop, go back. You know, you've heard them cut up many times, you're often counting certain things. You know, the ballet we're dancing at the moment is Anna Karenina, and the score was made for this particular production. So it also marries so perfectly. Yeah. And, you know, it's a really tragic story, obviously. And there's some absolutely just heartbreaking musical moments that are just matched so beautifully with what's happening on stage. That, you know, we've seen it so many times. And it still it gives me goosebumps, and it still feels like ah, this is just like so. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's yeah, it's such a privilege, you know, to, to watch people in that moment or to be in that moment. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. It's beautiful. I love it all right, let's talk about your children. You've mentioned them briefly in passing. Tell us a little bit more about your family. I have three children, which still doesn't seem real when I say that to me. I'm not doing I do I do. Just make sure. I don't mean to discount the massiveness of that and I'm, I'm so fortunate to have been lucky enough to have three beautiful children. But I do still feel quite I don't know, I guess each day I'm just like treading water. So sometimes I don't stop to like acknowledge. Yeah, I've got three beautiful children. Jasper, my son is six. And he has grown up around the valley, which is a really unique, you know, he hasn't been here every every second but he's grown up around it. And He's toured with me and I went back to dancing after I had him dancing Giselle in that regional tour when he was nine months old. So he came out on the road with me and my mom and my mom has been like the biggest To support save, You're everything to me for my whole career. I mean, she was the one who took me to every dance class. And she is not a ballet mom at all. She doesn't know one step from the other. But she has just been there every moment. And so he's been very lucky to travel a little bit with me too, but he has a real appreciation for it. But yes, I have twin girls, Lulu, and Lottie, who are 18 months old now or a few days time. So they're little, very cheeky, very funny. little toddlers at the moment, were in that sweet stage before the that yes, I was. There's no twins in our family. And that came as a bit of a shock. Yeah. And, you know, I, this is something I think this is another part of the ballet world that, you know, I don't think he's really, I guess, thought about talked about, you know, obviously a woman's choice to have children when she has them. How that works with her career is a very, very personal choice. And I absolutely respect that people don't talk about it. But I think it's really interesting. And it's probably very similar for elite athletes. But again, I can just talk about the ballet experience. You know, artistically, you are, finally, after so many years of training, learning the craft, performing, you know, working, just optimizing, you get to your 30s, artistically, you're finally coming into your straps, you're not even there yet, probably you're just coming into your straps, you're coming into that zone, where it all starts to be cohesive and make sense. And you can feel that you can trust yourself, you can go for it. And that's also the years where you need to start about a family. And if you'd like to have one how that might work. And I think that is quite a battle for the dancers in that kind of part of their career, because how can you How could you possibly choose to stop? And then there's always thinking, Oh, what's it going to be like, on the other side, I'll lose a year I've got really good, you know, flow I've got, you know, you might be in a really good trajectory, you know, not just a ranking sort of thing. But just like with the roles, you're getting the impetus, the momentum, you're building your reputation, but just like how you feel in yourself, and then to then I'm just going to stop that now. And just take, firstly, nine months to have a baby. And I'm talking very pragmatically here. I know, this is obviously, you know, there's a whole lot more to it. But I'm just like to say it kind of nine months for that and then getting back into into it. How will that work? Who's my where's the support system? How would it work? It's I think it's a really daunting prospect. And you know, there's always like, Oh, but there's that ballet coming up next year. I've always wanted to do that. We can't dance till we're 60. It's not a career that lasts forever. So, yeah, I feel like you entered. I was lucky. I had Jasper when I was 30. And I was ready, then I was ready to stop. I was ready for it to not be about me. And I left it quite open in that sense. But yeah, I just think and you know, that's, you know, on the flip side, it's such a beautiful thing, that becoming a mum only makes your ballet career so much richer and so much more beautiful. And, you know, you can't know that beforehand. You see that in other people? But yeah, yeah. Also, then, you know, not that long after you might be thinking about retirement, I just think there's like this even like five year window, that's hyper pressure about what choices you're making, when you're making them. He's now a good time. If I'm, if I step away now, to do this, all those other girls are gonna get my impetus. And then when I come back when it's my place, it's, you know, but fortunately, I feel like when I chose to have my children, and when I, when I chose to have, you know, to say, Okay, I think I think I'm happy with what I've achieved here now, and I'd like to look at having another child in this case to that one. I was happy with what I'd achieved and it was too important. For me, it wasn't about what ballet was coming up. It was. It wasn't about that it was I would love the opportunity to have a child, another child and obviously we'd lucky to and so that trumps everything and very fortunately, we're lucky to have him At a beautiful girls. And we're a family of five. I love that so when you when you did have Jasper, did you think that was the end? And you were happy with that? Or were you still thinking I can come back? You know, I've got the support of my mom, I can, I can do this. And I could, I was very lucky that I'd seen women in the company go before me. And quite a lot of them honestly, because David McAllister, the director at the time, really pioneered the maternity leave and process of the Australian ballet, which is, again a front runner of worldwide standards, I could see that it was possible. I was encouraged by that. Again, they were the ballerinas as the company, I was a soloist at the time, so I wasn't on the same level as them. But also like an by level, I also mean, as a principal dancer, as principal artists, you are mostly not dancing every night and and show because you have your two or three Shows a week. This is not every week, but let's just change your Time Season. They're on all the time. But generally speaking, they have their specific shows, and you know, perhaps a bit more saying what they're doing and their timings. When you're Junior in the company, you don't you're in the biggest scene. So you're there rehearsing in the bigger scenes every day that need more time, you're not just rehearsing you and your partner, or can we do that at one today, because I've got to go or you're kind of at the mercy of the group. And then you're at the mercy of all the shows. So it's not about I'll be in the theater, like three nights a week, it's like, I'll be there six nights a week, like every week. So I had worked to a point where I'd got I was really happy with what I achieved. And again, at that point, I had a very clear mind that having a child was the most important thing. And if that was it, I was very open ended, you know if something if he was, you know, sick as a baby, or if I didn't feel like it felt right for me anymore. I would have stopped dancing. I just left it quite open. So a few months after he was born, I started doing some Pilates. And I thought now I've still got it in me and even though we don't have family in Melbourne, I was mum was able to talk with me. So I gave it a go. And then after when I knew I was pregnant with the girls I I then knew like at that first scan appointment, when I saw there was two, and I gasped he started crying. No. I'll never forget that moment. It was just it was such a indescribable, like, so many feelings. Not instantly, but I thought you know what, I think this is life telling me that this is probably time, it's time to enjoy the bit you've got left. And I was just hoping to get to that particular season that I was talking about previously to get to do that ballet died 1929. Yep. Because I thought that was a beautiful full circle. I was really sick and tired. Like really sick with the girls being pregnant with them. So I didn't know if I'd actually be able to make it to that point. But I just tried. Just gave myself each day at a time and I was able to get through those shows before COVID shut us down anyway. So I was able to do those shows. And then and thought they were my last. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask you, you've mentioned feeling sick with the girls. What's it like? Being like dancing when you are pregnant? Like do the does the company sort of make allowances? Do they? Do you have like special things that you're not allowed to do like that? How does it sort of work? Yeah, well, it is quite different for everyone. Obviously, you're not you know, you're not able to sit at your desk and hide away a bit and you know, discreetly go to the bathroom. If you're feeling a bit nauseous and I look it's a very vulnerable time for any woman and I it doesn't matter how many times you've been pregnant what the circumstances are. I think every woman feels very vulnerable until you feel like the pregnancy is safely on its way so I think you That's really tricky to balance with the fact that it's a very public public profession, you're in a leotard. People can look at you and you're not feeling great. You sense that other people can tell that they're still many, many weeks to go before you're in the clear, or you feel comfortable to tell your boss or other dancers. So it's actually a really yucky time. Irrespective if you're tired or sick. It's a very it feels really confronting and both pregnancies I felt really. Yeah, not. I don't enjoy that, you know, it's my first pregnancy with Jasper, I sprained my ankle ankle at seven weeks. And I think that was just a blessing, because I wasn't about maybe nine weeks, and I wasn't coping with just, like, feeling like it was so obvious, but you've got a long time to go, you've got to pretend you're still able to do everything, obviously, at any point you can, you can speak to staff, and they'll absolutely, you know, just keep like, keep that in mind. And, yeah, obviously, that that level of duty of care is absolutely there. But you know, as as a woman, you don't feel comfortable. Just you know, saying I'm eight weeks pregnant, you know, there's still four or five weeks to go before I really feel okay about this. But yes, it can affect the repertoire you're doing and obviously different partner and different lifts and things. Some some girls tell the partner they're dancing with, and some don't, because they don't want their partner to freak out. They're going to do something wrong, and you're guided by your health, your health care professionals, and I had a lovely obstetrician for the girls who said to me when Okay, let's talk about twins. And I just said, I surely can't do anything that I meant to be doing. And he said, No, no, you're and obviously, this is not medical advice. This is just what he said to me in my circumstance. He said, No, no, just you just do what you're doing. That's your life. Normally, just keep doing that. I want you to do that. He gave me some options for the sickness. But other than that, and he was just said, you keep doing that. And I told David at the time, when I was 10 weeks pregnant, I was so close to getting to the shows, but I just had to say no. And he was so excited. I love it. So excited. Yeah, certainly I'm sure in many years, not that long ago gone by it was not at all a comfortable conversation to have. Yeah, I that's something in itself. I always felt like this was exciting news to share. It wasn't like, oh, well, that's, that's going to be a shame. Or why did you choose now like you're just doing so well, there's none of that, in my experience. And so there shouldn't be but I'm sure in the years gone by it was seen as a, you're not as dedicated because you've chosen to do this. Yeah, absolutely. And there probably wouldn't be the option to come back, because people would judge you on that and go, Well, they've chosen that so that you don't come back? No, I think traditionally, absolutely. And David was very clear about making that cultural, you know, a huge, a huge change in that, that it was only supportive, and you don't want to be losing all your top women, just because they they realize they don't want to miss out on something that has a finite time. Our career has a finite time. And so does you know, the years where you are able to have your children and care for them and deal with, you know, their early years. That's what's so tricky. Our job is so demanding to what we often feel as ballet moms feel at odds with is that you know, those early child hood years are so intense also. And you don't want to miss lots of it. And you want to be forming that bond and that connection, but also your career there. They are your best years. And they're kind of endears. So it's like a really tricky. And you just find your way and they do complement each other. But yeah, it's a big, I think it is a big decision to kind of be confident enough. If you do want to continue to ask him to put a pause button and say this is really important that I have a family as well. And then I'm going to come back and I'm still going to be able to do what I can do. Yeah, absolutely. When you found out you're having tweens and you mentioned those emotions. Did you think how's my body going to? I mean, I suppose at that point you weren't thinking Coming back, necessarily. But did you think how's my body going to go? Then? After all the changes? It's going to go through having to at one time, will I will I be able to dance the same way? Or, you know, how will my body come back from that with its, you know, flexibility? All that that kind of stuff. Did you did that sort of? Was that something was you thinking? I guess, because I wasn't thinking about coming back. And, again, I'll just like the timing of it. Literally COVID had just hit Australia. A few days before that. Last season I did opened and we only were able to perform three shows a Friday into Saturday. And then everything was close. That was when everything shut down. Yeah. Sorry about it only recently performed in Melbourne this last week, since then, sorry. Which everyone thinks is actually some kind of miracle. Right? Do they days, you know, give this to them, care for them? And then come back. And, you know, oh, it's the opening of Anna Karenina that was meant to open two years ago. And yeah. But I guess yeah, my mindset wasn't on, on anything regards to ballet. Yeah, when I was, I wasn't absolutely dead set against coming back. But I just in my mind, I was leaning towards that. And I've never actually, you know, really thought too hard about that kind of physical change. In terms of my career, with, you know, with pregnancy, I did, you know, I was pretty concerned about having a twin pregnancy genuinely, it's, it is a high risk. And, you know, we had our own complications along the way. And so nothing's taken for granted. And I think that perspectives enough to be like, you know, if you, if you can't get your leg up pie anymore, it's really, it's really not important. So I was just amazed my body could handle the twin pregnancy generally. Because I'm not, there's not a lot of room. Amazingly, they make room but pretty, pretty uncomfortable at the end. And, but it's also like I, a lot of people think somehow being a valid answer must help you in birth or something. And perhaps it does, but I think more than anything, it's just that you've been so strong your whole life, that on the flip side, your recoveries probably a bit. A bit easier, even from a twin pregnancy, then yeah, maybe someone who hasn't been as active and just so aware of, you know, muscles and how things feel. And yeah, I mean, I think a lot of valid answers. So if they do go back, they try to go back really quickly to dancing and they miss it. Like, I think physically, they miss it, and they miss feeling like that. And they have, you know, a really clear vision and for whatever other reasons, which are their own, they want to dance so quickly again. I mean, I didn't have that. That's just not part of me, but also after the twins. I mean, I wasn't sleeping until they were like 10 months old, proper properly. So I don't know where in that I was meant to be. In that to be thinking about doing ballet. i If there was ever a 10 minutes, I would try to lie on the couch. You know, I wasn't like oh, just do some exercise. It wasn't really my headspace. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I want to bring up I've had my own experiences with postnatal depression. So I can relate to a lot of stories that my guests share. And you've been really vocal about your journey. And I want to commend you for that, because I think it's so important that we talk about it so that it becomes like a normalization of this is, this is something that happens to a lot of people. And it's not something to, you know, be scared of or hide away from, we're going to talk about it so everyone can sort of help each other and, and ways to get through it. If you're comfortable sharing we can you tell us a little bit about that experience. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, it's, you know, I I agree. It's, it's a topic that I believe should be spoken about more. You know, I can also understand you don't want to put that on to new months in that, oh, you know, it can be this hard and it can be so bad and you know, when they're going through such a transformative experience, and some people are not affected in that way. So you don't want to be Putting that experience onto everyone. But by the same token, there are so many women who are really battling with something that is out of their control. And it's meant to be the happiest time of your life. And it isn't, you feel quite unhappy, really. And on top of that, you're so sleep deprived, and so unable, what feels like so unable to cope, and then the guilt of not feeling like it's the happiest time of your life. There's so many levels of that, and the layers just kind of keep building each day. And it is, it's this, it's this kind of base and I can see, you know, externally now that why you feel like you can't say anything, and I felt that like that at the time, and I have such amazing support. And, you know, Locky is, is my greatest support in every way. And, you know, I had to sometimes some days, I had to feel, find the bravery somewhere in myself to actually say how it was. Because it felt like such a big thing to put on to someone else who's already supporting you, you know, and if that's your mom, or if that's anyone, but just to be like, it's actually really bad. You know, these are actually the thoughts I'm having. And I don't mean to be dramatic, because it's actually is that bad, you know, and mine. My postnatal depression, and anxiety kind of set in quite quickly. And, you know, I know everyone has a different experience. And yeah, I guess I'll just share mine. But yeah, twins is quite a shock. And I was so euphoric, I had this amazing, beautiful birth with them. And yeah, I had natural deliveries. And they were, you know, we, they were almost full term, and they were healthy. And after a really long pregnancy, worrying, like the relief for that. And I couldn't believe my body could do that. And I was like, This is great. And, you know, they were feeding well. And I was managing to feed them, somehow duck tanned and feed them, which is just somehow managed to do that. And you know, so you know, that first bit that first week or so, like, wow, I made two babies. And it's, um, yeah, I was, I actually did feel that pride and that, you know, we were ecstatic. And then, you know, the actual care of twins, and obviously, multiple births, you actually are just statistically at a higher risk of postnatal depression, because it's just hard. Yeah. And I was very lucky, I had people around me who said it like that, you know, and I had a really great obstetrician in Brisbane, where we had the girls eventually, I remember the six week appointment we had, I had it at four weeks, because we had to go back to Sydney at that time. So like, he could go back to work. And we had it a bit early. So it was even earlier than you know. And I walked in, and he was like, how he going and I said, like, death warmed up, and we'd had a terrible night, 20 minutes sleep the whole night. I was feeding them. At that point, trying to establish as is to better at once is one everyone says put them on a schedule schedule, put them on a schedule. And for someone who's had a schedule my whole life, like I, I would take to that like a duck to water but these babies still didn't know that. willing to do it. And I'm still feel like there's a part of me that, you know, was was perhaps keeping twins for a reason because I can stick I'm determined, I will make them do the same things at once. But not at that stage. They you know, and they're so you know, their tummies are so little and all of the, you know, you're up padding and tap, you know, do they need more and all of that, but times two. And so after even just four weeks of that, and no sleep. And I was feeding them so that's exhausting, obviously. And it really came on like a, you know, like a freight truck, even by that point. And then we moved back to Sydney. And I met a really wonderful, very just by chance. My maternal child health nurse there was incredible and a really important person in my journey because straightaway, even though she'd never met me, and I told her our, our story, and you know, my I hadn't seen my son Jasper, who was in Melbourne with his dad. And he'd been there 10 weeks and because the borders were closed with COVID Oh, yeah. And it's like, right, so you're here. You had the girls in Brisbane, because you had to fly up, go up, drive up there do hotel quarantine because of the risk. There was a risky birth situation anyway. So we had family support, so you had to leave your son in mail. When you're here in Sydney, you've been around a bit, you've just had twins, feeding them. And she's just like, this is, this is a lot. And she's like, No, you're not around your friends like, and you know, my work friends are my family. You're not around you use your usual people. You're at a really high risk here. And, and I was like, really? Ah, no, I'll be right. And she's, and she was like, no, no, we're, we're going to look at this. And I'm going to tell you like in a really great pragmatic way with someone who's so sleep deprived, and emotionally drained, needs to sometimes hear it so bluntly. And she's like, it's, you know, twins, it's about twin management. And, you know, I was like, but I meant to be like, loving them and like caring, and like looking at their toenails. And I'm like, I don't even know what their toes look like. That feeling of like, how much your adoring them and like staring at them. And with twins, you feel like, in fact, I can see you're getting, you're trying to get to know two people at once. So you're getting double the input, like feedback, but you can't process so I felt like it took me so much longer to know which one liked what and which one needed and to feel equally as close and in connection with an in tune with both, because it was just like, kind of like not a production line. But it's just it's just all routine. Yeah, yeah, it was. And, and that was to our to get to a point that it was to our benefit, so that you weren't up all day and all night with one baby at a time. So it was all working towards that. But to make that happen is is like hard work like effort, like one's up, okay, get the other one out. Okay, feed, that one's going out, put the other one down. Like it's, it's not just go with the flow. And I thought being a second pregnancy second baby, I'd love to be that like go with the flow parent, which ultimately probably doesn't suit my personality. But to just be more relaxed and to know it all passes. And to know, you get through it. And but it was it was such a different experience. So how could I and I, I really needed so much support. And I'm just to this day, every day. So grateful I had access to support. I know it makes me so sad to know that there's women out there who just don't have that support, or someone saying you need, I'm going to funnel you into a system and you're going to go to that mother baby and or you're going to have this appointment, or we're going to squeeze you into a telehealth to talk to someone because right now, that's crucial. It's not just like, oh, you know, four weeks time we'll do. It's like, right now this needs to happen. And very, very fortunately, with twins, in those sorts of areas, you do sometimes get a little bit of a, you get a priority. It's like we know this, this is yes has to happen. Yeah, which I you know, I was really grateful for that so I had people checking on me, and I felt so incapable. And just, you know, yeah, just so out of my depth. And, you know, I was just like, I think back and it is an every time. It's like, it's like a dream, like, and not always a good one. But it's like and I with my son, he came up to see us and I'd you know hadn't seen him it's so long, which was just so hard in itself. And he was meeting his new sisters and he had so much energy and I had so little to give him and it's just you know, there was always a baby that needed something and you know, he's been so patient and had to adjust but it took me a long time, especially with how I was feeling and how low I was feeling. And so anxious. You know, even when I got to sleep, I couldn't sleep. I didn't know again until I'd spoken to my nurse and to the psychologists I eventually spoke to that I that that feeling of rage or like anger, but mostly that that rage that like volcanoes up inside you and you just need like a you know, the pressure valve just needs to release is is a real, real sign of anxiety you You just think I'm just a horrible person. And I'm just so mean to everyone. And I'm so angry, and it's not fair. And why am I so awful? And he's like, No, it's the pressure release of you're so anxious. And I think in my career, I'm so used to dealing with pressure. And even if you're anxious, you're able to deal with it. Either squash it, compartmentalize it, do something with it. I didn't have an outlet. I didn't have time. You know, anyone talks about moms having time for themselves. It's like, that was a joke. When was like, understandably, it's just not, it's also not a fact, when he had young twins, and leaving the house, and people would talk to me at the cafe, and I just, I wouldn't even know how to talk. Like, I just, I just looked down, please don't talk to me, please. Lovely, have more and just like so. And, and you feel and it's another point where you just let I just don't feel that. Like they're so beautiful, and I love them. But my experience is just like, I can't get through this. I'm I'm just floundering. And that mismatch between what what people expect or think, is another layer of like, RC like I should be. And if I could just like what I said earlier about, but if I could just work harder if I could just think differently. I'm sure I could turn this around. But really, I needed a lot of help and support. And in time sleep. Yeah. Yeah, I needed an iron infusion. I needed, you know, there was a whole plan that I was very lucky, multiple people, you know, and I had an incredibly supportive partner who sat there and looked me in the face. And you know, how old were you when I said awful things, you know, really was like, I don't like having to say this. But if I get this out, it has less power. And then we could kind of like, move through it. And so over time, and I noticed too, this is something that it feels like too much to be like, I need an hour to do my telehealth with my psychologist, you know, especially with a young family and Jasper was at school. And there was always a reason I could have just cancelled that I was lucky to get into a psychologist with the Gates Foundation in Sydney. And so that really worked, especially not having to go out of the house. If I had to go to an appointment, I probably wouldn't have prioritized it again. I was lucky in that COVID time that telehealth was a thing. And yet, when I dropped a few weeks, it wouldn't happen immediately. But it would start to come in again, I'd feel that that ends all day anxiety. And as soon as one of the girls would wake up before I wanted her to it was so frustrating. And why are you? Why are you not doing what I thought you're meant to be doing. And now I have to get the other one out and restart again. And it's school pick up tight and just it would my coping mechanisms would start to fall away again. And obviously, everything feels like it falls apart. So definitely talking to someone, you know, weekly became a priority. And if that meant I heard, you know, my mom with the girls, and they're both screaming as hard as that was, yeah. It, I had to at some in some way. Prioritize that hour. And then once the girls were able to be in a routine that was more consistent, they didn't sleep as well as my son ever did. And, you know, every time they went through a sleep regression, one of them would always hit it worse than the other. And, and you know, not that long ago, you know, one of my girls was up for like six hours a night for a couple of weeks. And you're just like, What do I do? How How is ones just sleeping? And but you what do you do with a baby for six hours says every Monday, every overwhelmed of all time. And of course you get through it. But I could get through that because I'm in such a better place. And I've had some sleep. And it seems so simplistic to say, Oh, you just need time and sleep. But really, fundamentally, they're two really important things that help you with young babies. Yeah, absolutely. Sleep is sleep is king. You just get anxious about it. And so I'm like set on how everyone's sleeping how the baby's sleep times to this case, which it was ultimately everything. How you're sleeping, how my son like anyone who'd make a noise that would potentially you know, a lot of symptoms of postnatal depression and anxiety I you think all you feel pretty, pretty sad and pretty low bit unmotivated. You're not enjoying it as much. A lot of the Symptoms like I couldn't handle light. I couldn't handle sound my son's footsteps running down the corridor. We're just like, Ah, it's just so loud in here one night, I was asking people to turn off the lights and the TV. And everyone was so lovely and, you know, receptive, but they looked at me like, oh my gosh, yeah, it's really not that bad. But the sensory overload for someone who was already at the end of it, like wit's end on every level, I think was just too much of a trigger. When I, I had my first son 14 years ago, and we, you know, you go to the prenatal classes, and this guy came in from Beyond Blue, I think, Oh, I can't remember where he was from, he might have just been from the hospital. So basically, he, he said to us, you're going to have times when you feel beat down, it's going to be hard. You're going to have, you're going to feel you're gonna get the baby blues. So good luck with that. And that was what, that's what they told us about, about postnatal depression. And it was like the intensity, oh my gosh, actually can be. And also, by this point, for anyone, when you're having a child, it's the responsibility you feel like, is overwhelming at times. Even though this is something you desperately wanted in that it doesn't change the fact that it's a huge responsibility that everything to do with this little person, or these two little people, it is about you and your decision. And every decision you make, you know, it's I think, trivialize it like that, compared to, obviously, you know, what it's like, it's couldn't, couldn't be, you know, more polar opposite to how intense it feels. It's absolutely not baby blues. And you know, that's what I say to anyone I know, who's having a baby or has had a baby, you know, like, I'm up in the night often anyway, so if you need to call anyone, please just know, you can always message me or call me or anything, because it's, it's not trivial. And there are some moments in time that you might actually just need someone. And as someone who, it doesn't matter what you've done in your life previously, as someone who by that point usually feels a bit capable are a bit like, you know, I can manage things to feel so incapable is, and so at a loss is such an unsettling, despondent feeling, let alone then feeling like that, and being responsible for someone else. Hmm. Yeah. I want to touch on when you said, when you spoke to your, the nurse that you said was really, really good. When she sort of told you all these things, these were massive things that were impacting, and, and you sort of said, I'll be right. Were you feeling like at that point? And you don't have to answer this if I'm trying too much. Did you feel like because I'm sort of trying to relate it to my experience? Did you feel like you had to pretend it wasn't happening? Or did you really genuinely feel like it was wasn't happening? I don't think I was aware how bad it was, even though I felt really bad. I knew it was I think it's like everyone has that pride. And I think I thought I could get through it. Or a bit like if I just do this in this a nice it'll, it'll go away or or it will get better. Yeah, I guess that was her point was just, you know, it's it doesn't have to be okay. You have so much going on, not to mention a pandemic. Yeah. Parents of the last two years, have not been able to access for their children for themselves for their families, the same levels of care, the lack of, you know, the lockdowns, the restrictions that the people popping over the all of those little things that at such a critical time, might be that one person you spoke to who you got to have a hug with, or might be, you know, all of that wasn't there. And I think I'm used to coping with quite a lot. I'll be the first to say I don't cope very well with change, or with anything going not to plan. Even though a whole lot of things in life in my life. You know, like, really there's been A lot of change and a whole lot of things that I've actually had to cope with. I think I cope externally very well. But internally, I, I battle how well I'm coping. And also I you know, you don't want to be a downer for everyone. I think that's another layer that no, we will women who are feeling, you know, like they are postnatally depressed, that you don't want to be a burden on other people. You want to live up to what you're meant to be living up to, you know, yeah, that is so true. You just not. And again, sometimes it has to be as plain as day is that. And also that first appointment, I think, you know, I had all these questions about the babies and you know, this feeding this and, you know, sleeping in their tummies, all this stuff, you had this list of things like all every new moms, dads, and she's like, I don't want to talk about babies. It was so amazing. So experience is I want to talk to you my mind anxious me, I just wish we could get to the things I want to talk about. So I'm getting to know both of us, myself lucky, our stories, how we got to this point, and you know, obviously with the traveling and the quarantine, and all of the know driving on the highway and all of this and Jasper and and she's like, you know, it's a pyramid structure. And she said, everyone thinks that the parents are, you know, come last, and there at the bottom, but it's actually the other way around. If you're at the top, and it filters down. If you guys aren't okay, no one's okay. And then when it came to me, if you're not, okay, no one else is okay. And that's not a burden to you, that's just where we need to put you in this picture. Because you're going to be putting yourself down here and everyone else comes first. And that the baby's needs come first. And as someone who does like perfection in that way, whenever they'd cry, I'd feel like a failure. When I couldn't settle them, I'd feel like a failure. And like lots of mums do because that's your feedback. And you equate that to how well you're doing at being a mum. And when you've got two of them at once doing that. Or when you've just got one settled and the other you think your status quo is constantly being disrupted. So therefore, you must be doing a terrible job. And someone else would be doing this better than you. But she, she kind of was the right person for me to be saying, you know, they're going to cry sometimes, and you're not going to like it. But if that means you got to eat something that is okay. Because if you don't put any of your needs first with twins, you will never ever look after yourself. And that's going to trickle down. And that's no good for anyone. So I had to relearn I have to actually in my very sad, anxious, not really, you know, really fuzzy how fuzzy you feel. Yeah, you are in that, that place like other than the tiredness, but there's a fuzz that, you know, you can't even make a sentence. Even still, I had to with practice with time, we support and someone checking in and going over this, again, really learn about putting some of my needs first, to then be able to help other people. That's it's a massive, a massive thing. To, for someone to ask you to do that. And then more massive to actually put into practice. That's, it's huge, isn't it? Because that's not how we're not, we're not wired to think that way. We've we've just got to give given given given give. So we kind of do feel, perhaps all mothers always do. But I do you sense in this time when I talk to my mom and you know, women of that age, that the pressure younger parents now put on themselves to be everything for their children. every second and every moment is a teachable moment. And, you know, if you did it this way, they won't have tantrums because they'll have all the food and you know, because you will have practiced these strategies and all of this and you sat with your child and looked him in the eye and all of that, you know, someone's having a meltdown in Kohl's and you've got to get back to work in like half an hour. It's really hard to be that parent. And we have that vision in ourselves. Like I want to be this parent and myself. I wanted to be that parent and then I had new born twins and I thought I knew some some things about having a baby turns out with twins it's a totally different story. And I just did absolute like sleep deprivation doesn't you know and that's what I just you know, I can't even believe I got through and any twin parents is because it's such a. Anyway triplets. quarters don't even single babies are really tricky to and it's, it's separating that like having that difficult baby or that tricky baby does not relate to how well your mothering like, it is not the same thing it's so hard to. And again, you need other people drumming that into you, reminding you and I, you know, I'm lucky that I have, I have those people around me. So I've found my way through and to, you know, not just to an end that big story. Sorry, very long story positive, but I do feel like and not that I wish this on any other mother, ever. But I do feel like the enjoyment I get from my girls. And the joy I have with them now that I had been through that experience of being so down. It really is amplified because I see it. And I remember when I first started feeling better over time, and then you have your bad days again. And then you know it's incremental. But when I actually enjoyed them, I just like cried with happiness. I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm enjoying them. Oh my gosh, like, and I think the appreciation for that was so huge. And I you know, I know there's challenging times ahead, children, but I do, I do have a greater sense of that appreciation for that, you know, enjoyment. And the present illness after feeling so not present. So spacey, so unable to be in the moment because you don't even know where you are. And sometimes you just wished you are asleep. Most of the time. Do not thank you for sharing that. So candidly, I appreciate it. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that listening that are going to kind of take a lot from it. So thank you. Sorry, that that's the only you know, that's what not that I mean, but I do feel like that is the one one blessing of going through that experience is that you were able to help so many other people by sharing yours. And that is the only reason I have you know, I've shared about that in my own in my own space. And you know, I'm very lucky that I've had that support and I just like I said before, I just so hope that other women have that too. And if that means one day when they're having a really bad day and they happen to read something you know, which has happened to me before to you read something on a particularly bad day and might just help you see that evening witching hour, just somewhat a bit differently for that one day. If I can help one person one day by them reading something, then I'm I'm really glad. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom, if my mom Alison Newman. After you start to feel, well, you're enjoying these moments and things are feeling feeling improved for you. When did you get that spark that you thought? I'm gonna go in depth again? Well, I wasn't actually feeling much better when I first started thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah, so dancing again, in, in a kind of condensed fashion, which I'm not good at, as you can see it again, was part of me feeling well, again, and I couldn't have known that at the time. Like I said, I really didn't think I would dance again. And the most exercise I would get would be when I was in the girls room, and they might have just like settled and I didn't want to open the door and the light come in. So I'd lie on the floor. And do you know, my pelvic floor exercises, that's that's the extent of where I was at. And that wasn't so I could get back on stage that was just to be a functional person again, and I have a really incredible Women's Health physio, which I also very much recommend to any any woman anywhere, no matter what you've done in your life. But you know, that was something that was just good for me. That was not, I'm just going to start with this because that'll be helpful when I'm dancing. There was no dancing thoughts. I would go over ballets when I was like rocking them to sleep in in their room, or like settling them like sometimes a random step would come out. But I was thinking about my retirement speech more than anything. And then COVID At the time I thought I probably won't even have anything and then I thought that's so sad like After 18 years like that, it just, you know, some people choose to have it that way. And I wouldn't have had a fanfare but I always thought when I retired, I'd have my family there. But yeah, I think about what I'd say. And they're the thoughts that would come and go in my, you know, spacey state that was my dance world. And so it was actually people around me mainly Locky. Because he's so supportive of me and my career. And it would be very easy to say, Oh, this is too hard. Donna, you know, Donna, you know, he tours, obviously, he's very busy with his job. And he loves his job. And, you know, he, you know, that's his dream job. And he is so good at it. It's, you know, we love watching him and but just, you know, the, the, we both have very demanding jobs in the eyes. Yeah, there was never a question of like, are from anyone that my mind was less significant in any way, or that it would be easier if I stopped dancing, because then that would work better for the family or just be easy, at some point, that probably will become part of the reason you know why we shift into a different way of how our family works. But just because I'd had two babies was not a reason for that to happen. So here's the first person who wanted to see me dance again, if that was something I wanted to do. So he he was very supportive over time in his beautiful way, not in your face just a little bit every day. Go in and have the conversation, you've got a contract still, your position is there. It's not trying to get a new job. It's your job. It's your position, have a chat, but not like what how could I talk? This is ridiculous. Don't even think about that. Go in and have a chat with David David Hallberg, our new director. So this was a new director for me, so I'm gonna who doesn't know me. And that was quite daunting in itself. So eventually, by about seven months, the company was in Melbourne at the time, they just had a Sydney season that somehow managed to squeeze in with COVID. And I arranged an appointment and decided to go in and you know, I could have not gone that day, I felt terrible, you know, I was going to miss a feed from the girls. And, you know, they'd never been left do that anyone else? Really? My mom was there lucky. I don't know if lucky was there that day. But yeah, it just all felt too hard. Of course, it's too hard. You know, there's so many other things. When you're in that, like baby space, that's too hard, leaving the house, one of them any variable for someone who is very much struggling with the day to day, a variable is too hard. Like go in and have a chat. So I put, like proper clothes on which I hadn't done and drove my car, which I also hadn't done in a while. And, you know, all of these things, and it felt like stepping out into the world again. And that was incredibly I remember, also being in this state I was, it was a sensory overload all of it, like the light, the sounds, just everything's coming into the carpark going in the left, I felt sick. Coming up, you know, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm home. And this is, you know, this is so lovely. I spent all my life here, it's, I was not in that stage. And also things had really moved on. That building felt different. I'm so glad I did, obviously. And David was very gracious in probably accepting me in that state. And, you know, I'm also a new person to him, and I just kind of flat out said, I've had a really, really rough time, and I didn't think I'd dance again. And he's like, you know, what would you like to talk about? And I said, I just I think I might want to try. You know, it wasn't a hugely confident telling yourself. I might want to try. It's like, what would that look like? I don't know. I've run out. I couldn't look him in the eye. And, you know, I just I was a shell of myself. And he just said, Well, how about you to start somewhere? I said, I don't know what, what I could come back to, you know, I was thinking like roles or seasons or and he's like, just don't even think about that. Just start somewhere, just babysit. And I was like, you know, you feel like you've got to offer something. I'll, I'll work I'll come back and I'll do that or I'll try for that series that just just don't yeah, don't think that far ahead. Just just in me Reality, if I'd actually thought about everything I have to do to get in this building every day, and to tour, I would not have gone in that day at all. So it was absolutely right on all fronts. So then I started coming in. And that was my therapy, I guess I'd come in and do Pilates kind of conditioning exercises that are quite specific what we do here. And, you know, I've done them for years. And I was very lucky that everyone knows me very well here. And in terms of, you know, the artistic health team, know me very well. I know how I function best and they weren't in my face. Some, you know, there's some mums amongst them. And they, they know, they knew instinctively what I needed. Sometimes that was just done. This is done a space, she's coming in today. And she's, you came in today, and I was like, and they're like you came in today. And then I start doing my little toe push up to the theater events. Yeah. And, you know, they could sense the days, I just needed space for myself. And that's essentially what it was. Because if I was home, I was always doing something I couldn't, we just coming back from Jessa, it was different, I could do a lot at home and he was asleep. The girls were still up and down all the time. There was always something to do food to cook a snack to get Jasper to, like, I had to go somewhere to have my that my time. And so that started like that incrementally. Then I joined our like daily training class. And that was, again, usually we work with Megan Connolly, who's our rehab coach, you normally go in with her and you know, do a couple of weeks, just one on one. And she's like, so you're gonna go into class today. And I said, Oh, but like, what are we going to do? And she's like, on in and I just go in there. I was like, no, that's just like, this is a studio with people, other people. And like a teacher and a penis. And I was like, I just, I can't, I can't like so many people in the eye, it really, you know, was a full body experience trying to get myself back into the world. And I did that by coming back into ballet, into something I knew. And that even like, all at that point. And even to vary up to when I did my first shows, I had to think if I don't get to do shows, if I don't get if I stop before I get to the like the goal or the cherry on top that I've this has been a successful worthy process, because this is what needed to happen for me. So it's more about the process rather than the end goal. It was about all those steps, and how that was like your therapy. It was actually it was and my maternal child health nurse had commented on that so much earlier. So how are we going to get you back to work? Like, that's just can't too hard. It's just we're gonna have to think about if you want, but we'll have to think about that. And I was not in that headspace. Whereas someone like her externally so much experience, I think could see pinpoint. This, this woman is going to need even for a short window of time to find a part of herself that has been so not thought about. And so I started in class for a little bit. Some days, I'd have to leave because I was overwhelmed by it wasn't even the ballet, the actual dance and everyone's like, Oh, it looks like you've never left and I'm standing there like a shell of myself and can't even express how different I felt. Physically. I was going through the motions. So and that's what I think is is tricky externally, after 18 month sort of dancing. Twins. i And I don't mean to say this, in a sense, it's precocious, but I was actually just going through the motions giving the actual dancing side of things such little thought because it was actually so much more a mental battle for me to stay in the room. People are there. They're going to look at you sometimes their eyes. Okay, you did it like, yeah, yeah, it was it just Yeah, it's like your body just almost had its own experience there. It knew the muscles knew what to do. It just did its own thing. And you could let it do that. In the meanwhile, the you know, inside your head. All this is happening. And yeah, and it's hard. People don't say that. Like literally, like you said, they said, it's like you never left. So they're only seeing this outside and they're not, you know, seeing the whole picture. So yeah, it's the realizations that come to me when I'm dancing. That's always been the case. But especially in that time and even still, the distance I have from being at home when I'm At the ballet, and when I'm dancing, things come to me and I solve problems in my head. And yeah, you know, I have these epiphany moments all the time about my kids and about mothering. When I'm at the bar. It comes to me then. Ah, so it is there's something about that. And maybe just because I've grown up doing it, and there's live music the first day, when someone started, we have, you know, a live pianist. So they start playing plays, and they improvise every day, all these exercises, and I just, like, my mouth was open, I was just like, oh my gosh, that's right. So I'm gonna just plays music for your day. Someone amazing, just plays music, music all day for you. was a really profound one. But I think I could unravel a lot of what had happened over the last 18 months, by being in that space. Yeah, wouldn't have to do at home for sure. Or even, you know, gone for a run or something it might have might have worked that there was something about, like you said, my body being a little bit on autopilot, that my mental chat could start to unravel a little bit. Okay, the space, it's, it's almost like, like a meditation in some ways that, like, I mean, I know, traditional meditation, you lay down, and then your body's at rest, so your mind can work. But sort of, in that way, like, your body's just doing its thing. You don't have to think about it. And then yeah, all this stuff, you're open to process, like it's a problem solve. And I feel very, I had such like a vehicle actually, that was way too daunting at the start, but actually became, you know, the art form that I've loved forever, actually, was the way into, you know, the new version of me that was all put together. Every kind of come before. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. It's like it truly is a part of your identity. And it just needed it was like that. Yeah, like I keep coming back to this word therapy was and that nurse was was experienced enough to see that, that that was going to be part of your healing was to get that part of your life back again. Yeah. And that's how long you know, who knows, and it's not about that. And I was lucky enough to be able to, after Melbourne, got out of the last longtown last year, we had a gala celebration season in December, it was a 10 day runner shows at the Art Center. And I was lucky enough to be ready at that point. I I'd only just come back full time. And so that was a personal choice, too. I extended my maternity leave beyond the 12 months, because I wasn't ready yet to leave the girls. I wasn't ready to have my schedule dictated to. I still needed to have because everything just took longer. And with twins, it just does. I think for everyone to find their feet for the tweens to settle into life like everything. Yeah, yeah, but certainly I wasn't ready to be after that long fighting to be there and enjoying them to then just evacuate and be at work you know, for 1012 hour days. So I took a really slow slow ride in and that meant I was working Training Training obviously you can't just turn off on day one. So from you know, from when they was eight months maybe not wasn't actually was like 10 months old. That's when I started some physical stuff and then I did all of that on my own time on my own schedule and then the week before shows opened as I'd planned but they everyone knew but I was like that's when I finish things that you've got a week and then a week of shows and I'm going on holiday Yeah, so again like compartmentalizing things like right from the start how lucky was saying just go into a chat and then you had you had David just saying well just try the sword you know it was it's breaking that down because the overwhelm if you think about everything is just too much it's just it's not it's not good yeah. The topic of mum guilt in and I guess everyone has different views. Use of what that is some people think it's a load of rubbish, which is great. Other people have like really relate to it, which is fine. Everyone's different. Have you ever had any experience with that? Or your thoughts about that are definitely have experience with mom guilt. That's something I feel all mums do face. And I will I'm certainly I certainly do. And a lot of the ballet mums here, that's a big one for us. Obviously, feeling guilty all the time serves no one. So I'm aware of that, too, that it's, it's a, it's a sensitive feeling that isn't really helping anyone. But what we do here at the ballet feels very self centered and self absorbed. It's such a giving up form, but our experience of how hard it is and the work we need to put in and the conditioning and the focus. And the I've got to get to the theater at this time. Because I've got to get my hair, I've got to do my makeup, I've got to think about my steps. And all of that changes after you become a man, you minimize everything and into the small amount of time as you can. But there's still the sense that I'm doing something for myself here. Like I'm, I'm focusing on myself, and I want that role. And I want to do that on stage and every one. I want to feel that. And you can't help but think I've got these little people who are like, Hey, Mom, I want you to but yeah, you know, so I very much relate to that. Whilst also understanding it's not really helpful. But there was something that I come back to, and what has often come from people reminding me and then I try to repeat it for myself is that your children, seeing you as a whole person is really important. And your children, especially with what we do seeing, seeing, you're so dedicated and so passionate, and loving something so much. What brought to you is really, really important to especially as a mother. And I think the uniqueness of what we do and touring half the year, the you know, the changeability, that pulling kids out of school or daycare and taking them to Sydney for two months, can feel like a bit of a liability and a bit of a, you know, kind of mixing their life up so much. And you know, with my son, I felt really guilty, he hasn't been able to do regular swimming lessons. And he hasn't been able to do soccer. And you know, I can't always be the one at the school gate. And even though when I was at home with the little girls with my twins, and he started school, when I stood at the school gate, I felt so out of place, I felt, I just felt so out of place. I just, I just I just yeah, it was actually a really uncomfortable feeling. And he didn't actually really care if I was if it was me there or not. Some days he does, and he is but he's also had such a colorful, interesting childhood already. I tried to flip that round, to say actually, he's had exposure to things that other kids haven't had. Yes, they've had playdates regular playdates, they go to soccer every Saturday, and the routine of that, and, you know, maybe the social constancy of that, you know, he hasn't had, but he's also had exposure to so many other things. So in context of my work and knowing it's not forever, knowing at some point, and probably, you know, by the time the girls are at school, I will be at the school gate every day, makes this time even more precious. And, you know, I do hope that, you know, they can see that their mom, you know, in did look after themselves, so that I could look after them. I do hope at some point in their lives, they can, they can see how valuable that was. And I might Santi now at the ballet, and he just had the best home ever so football with with the dancers, and that's something that other kids don't get to do. That's it. Yeah, absolutely. It's about although I think it's um, it relies again, on, you know, routinely reminding yourself of the value that your your art and your work is giving to you, and then how that's trickling down into your family. I definitely have more energy and more, more empathy, more support, more, more valuable time, if I've just had a bit of time for myself. At the moment that time is being spent doing something that I love, which is dancing. And at some point in the future, I have to find something else that that time is for so that that can still trickle down. Yeah, absolutely. You have you have that thing that feels that pick up and then you can you can give to others. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's good. You said about that. Because yeah, one of the things I like to mention is that it's, it is important for children to say, what their mums and dads are doing. I didn't matter what didn't actually mean to ask this, I was about to say something different. But as you mentioned before the girls like see their dad on the telly like, that's just like, did they? Did they make the connection? Do they like this? Yeah, yeah. I mean, probably assisted by the fact that like, hey, look, this study the girls, this is something I think all kids love music and dancing and our all of our kids do, but especially the girls are so absorbed in music and dance. And I mean, maybe some of those genetic I found with Queens, one of the only ways especially when they're early, you know, when they're lying on their little playing mat. That was one thing to keep them both entertained at once, which wasn't holding both of them at once was to lay them on the floor. And I'd put Wiggles, you know, playlists on and dance around like a little crazy person, you know, crazy person and try and sing not as well as their dad. And they would kick their little legs and you know, smile and giggle and that, you know, they obviously had exposure really, really early on to that. And still those particular wiggles that I've obviously drummed into them are their favorites. I you know, I love that they, I love so much, you know, we at 410 Every day we put you know, ABC Kids on and that's when we will design that's our little 10 minutes of you know, TV. They start dancing around and you know, Emma twirls around and they're, they're twirling around and they're trying to actually trying to do a sign language. It's amazing what young babies are picking up because there's me involved like, yeah, it's how they are learning because their music and dance involved. It's so innate. Yeah, I think it's really lovely. Obviously, Daddy's out there too. And that's pretty special. And yeah. We're taking them to the wiggles concert next week. And by we, I mean me. And I can't wait. Because even when they were five months old, I think, you know, I was on the sides with the girls. And my mom and Lulu especially was transfixed, and you know, five months old for 45 minutes. Oh, yeah, totally transfixed. And I think the power of music and dance is so, so beautiful. And I'm so glad they're growing up. So, so all amongst it. Yeah, it is beautiful, isn't it, it's like, like you're saying before, it might not be the, you know, going to soccer every week or the, you know, whatever it might be. But it's you're giving the children such an incredible life, just this exposure to things that other children might not get. And it's just, it's so awesome. It is. And it's challenging, obviously, and logistically, it's a jigsaw puzzle, turn it upside down and back to front and try put it back together again, every day is like that we have so many moving parts of our lives function. were two of us trying to tune out as well. It's just pretty, pretty full on and we're desperate school and trying to keep that consistent. And but it but it is it's it's it's good. I think I always try to remember to this is such a short amount of time. Yet ultimately, it's the best time for it to be like this. Yeah. Jess was starting us kit this year. And he'll he'll he'll do that, you know, he'll do that in years to come. He'll have enough soccer on Saturdays and he will get to your swimming lessons. But this is a unique time where I'm able to still do this. I can't do this again in 10 years time, being the level I'm at and want to be in 10 years time. So I might say you can but I'm, you know, I'm more than every day. I'm aware of that. You know, I do I have the best job in the world. And I get to go on stage and be different people and have world class orchestras playing music for me and do something I felt mostly quite natural doing my whole life. You know, it's it's hard to say no to that. And yes, hopefully my children can benefit from that too. Yeah, absolutely. I've got a wrench and the there was a beautiful article. Sydney Morning Herald where they took all these amazing photos of your family dressed up, and there's this one photo. I think it's Lulu. Like you've got this beautiful dress on and you're holding it and she's like, whatever like her facial expression. It's like, Oh, come on. I just every time I look at that, I just think she's in this world she gets, she knows what's going on. And she's like, Yeah, I'm in front of the camera again. With that particular photo, I know you're talking about it was one of her actually smiling. Yeah, they didn't using it. So when I saw that particular shot, when she's looking at, yeah, like, whatever. I thought it's a bit of a shame. But for whatever reason, maybe my leg looked better. Or, you know, the dress looks, you know, had a bit more flow or something. But I yeah, I did think that oh, interestingly enough, she's the one who loves her dress, and you put it on and she doesn't actually turned around. I just find those things. So interesting. Yeah. I don't know what Mommy does. Really. They don't. They haven't been able to come in most of my friends here at work. haven't even met the girls because of COVID. And, yeah, we're still very careful here, obviously. So those sorts of things aren't allowed. But yeah, they actually only know dancing through what they know themselves and through Wiggles. Um, but it's I love watching them just like, you know, dance along. Yeah, yeah. No, I just love I had to mention that. It's really funny. She's, she's really theatrical one. Currently in our Melbourne season of Anna Karenina, which was meant to be in the 2020 season, but has been postponed several years. So it's so lovely to have been able to get the this ballet on here. It actually made it to Adelaide last year and a little sneaky little week. It's a big, bold, intense drama. So beautiful, amazing costumes, scenery, a real modern day story of such a classic novel, obviously. So we're performing out here now. And we move that to Sydney, in April. Yeah, for three weeks. And we open also in Sydney in May a massive production called Kunstkammer, which is a whole huge evening of work. It's an amazing show from Netherlands dance theater and dt, which is the premier absolute, contemporary dance creative Maverick company from the last 60 something years. So this concept of Karma is a collection of incredible, four different choreographers who came together to create this incredible work, and there's so much in it. So it's a big undertaking for the company, but an absolute gift for us. No one else in the world has performed this ballet. So to have this in Australia is like having, you know, the rarest gem. So we're currently working on that at the moment, which is really exciting. You know, the some of the choreographers, I never thought I would ever be in the same room as them. Last year when we started workshopping and are just learning the early bits and I thought this is already enough like day one I've seen in the room with Paul Lightfoot. I never thought that would happen. This is unbelievable. So that's so exciting. We're doing that in Sydney in May. We bring that to Melbourne in June. So Melbourne gets to see that too. And then we open a ballet called Harlequinade here, which is a great commedia dell'arte, ballet, slapstick kind of comedy, but really clever, lots of dancing. Really funny, a real family sort of fun piece, which I'm really excited about. It's the sort of dancing that I get really excited by it's virtuoso, kind of pumping and turning and lots of fast movement but also lots of comedic timing and storytelling, which you know, I think is challenging but so, so rewarding. And then we have to finish off the first half the year we have our Adelaide season actually of counterpoint which is double bill, a double bill of Raymonda and which is a classical to to act. And then I got, I got artifacts, we really emphasize artifact suite, which is kind of like, again, a ballet that you know, the Eastern invite to have in their repertoire is a real coup. Yeah, that pushes dancers to like next level. So a whole lot of work. So, so you are performing something but then learning something else at the same time. Like you're doing different man that must does that screw with your head a bit, though, that you're like, which character am I today? That if you're doing the same dance, but several roles in the same dance that is quite tricky for the brain. Yeah, but I find the role is in the music. So whatever musics on it just getting to Yeah, we only did we did two versions of Swan Lake back to back. And that was a bit like, Oh, which one are we in? This one was modern was restoration, or, Oh, it's kind of similar, but not quite hit it in a music. But again, that's a skill that you kind of have to pick up along the way. And that's the challenge as well. But yeah, it's that's the sort of thing that I think people don't realize they do. Yeah, I never realized that till you just said that then, because I think musically, we're certainly my experience, you've got a show coming up. So you work on all this stuff for that show, then that show finishes, then you start for your next thing. But your world is just constantly constantly going, revolving door. And the different dance styles really challenge your body in different ways. And it's often when you start a new dance style, like as in a new piece of repertoire, it often you get quite sore or a bit, you know, using different muscles to do what you have been doing, and it feels a bit not quite the same as last night, and you're all caught up to my coin. How do I do that today? It is a constant challenge in that respect. But also it's the richness of the work we get to perform in the company here is that it's so diverse. And we actually are all very versatile dancers and very capable of that. So yeah, yeah, there was always lots to look forward to. And that's why you know, if you're not in a season this season heavily, you're there's something coming up always to think about. So we're very lucky. It's like a feast for us here. Everyone's very jealous overseas, how many shows we do? Talking about the kids like the dancing, I've worked in childcare, that's my day job. And I've certainly had a lot of wiggles over the years. But like it, they will that's what they want to hear the kids like, oh, we have this computer that we set up the music and and we have different music for sleep time. And anytime anyone walks over there we go squiggles or we will lose or they'll just they'll just start doing actions and they just love it. And same, like you said about the sign language. Like it's just becoming more mainstream a part of culture. Because of that, that, you know, the AMA, and it's like, it's just wonderful. It's, there's so there's so much like education value in what they're doing. It's not like, you know, they're not just a bunch of people to stenciling and having a party. It's like, they're actually educating and it's our like, my eldest son, he grew up with the originals. And then it was lovely to meet everyone in a different way. And some new faces when I had Digby, he's, he's six. So yeah, the year is and it's just a wonderful thing that it's still going and they've got the new faces now and it's just it's a wonderful part of our culture, I think. Yeah, yeah. It's, um, it's a it's a pretty special experience to be able to, you know, share that with children. And I do think, like I said, Before, they children just learn so innately through through music and dance without even knowing they are. And I think that probably goes across the ages and that goes into, you know, children who are well about, you know, three, four or five years old who love all those sorts of songs and things and so much scope for for learning with music and dance and how that can help all kids and all sorts of education kind of settings. With a ballet you know, we have storytime ballet which is, you know, the ballet for kids and Jasper seen those shows and a lot of kids come to those shows and you know, that is also what sparks a lot of children's in imaginations and a lot of what becomes the future generation of ballet dancers here and overseas, because they started at that first storytime, ballet performance, you know, that their mom or their grandma or someone took them to when they were three, four or five, six? Yes, spark something of that experience that took them somewhere. And then that takes them on their life to, you know, what they might like to become? And I'm sure that's how it happened with me like I just How can you not get take with that whole experience? And I think, you know, with ballet and music you that's pretty special to have that spark at such a young age and to play a part in that little person. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's it. That's a beautiful note to end on. I think. Thank you so much, Donna, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thank you for giving me so much time and, and chatting. So candidly, I've really, really enjoyed it. I have to thank you for giving me the space to you know, just like I said, I hope I can always help. The only reason I'd ever share anything about what I'm doing in my life or at home is that I can help someone else. And it's really lovely that ballet dancers now have the choice to become mums. And that, you know, we're working through this space of working out how they kind of feed and inspire each other. So thank you for giving me the space. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Julia Reader South Australian water colour and acrylic artist and art educator S1 Ep21 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Julia Reader is a watercolour and acrylic artist, an art educator from Mount Gambier South Australia, and a mum of one. Coming from a background in graphic design, Julia is a firm believer in following your heart, being open to new opportunities and that everything happens at the right time. We chat about how her perfectionist trait stifled her creativity, how she used her art as a therapy tool to work through her control issues, letting go of your expectations, not just in art but in life, and allowing mums feel all the feelings they are experiencing, good and bad, without judgement. **This episode contains discussion around infertility, post natal depression and panic attacks** Connect with Julia on her website and instagram Julia's December Workshop details Follow along with The Portrait Project here Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health and how children manifest in their heart. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music played, and a link to find the podcast on Instagram. Following music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone dig people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Julia reader. Julia is a watercolor and acrylic artist, graphic designer and art educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia, and a mom of one. Julia is a firm believer in following your heart being open to new opportunities, and that everything happens at the right time. We chat today about how her perfectionist traits stifled her creativity, how she used her art as a therapy tool to work through her control issues. Letting go of your expectations, not just in art, but in life, and allowing mums to feel all the feelings they're experiencing good and bad without judgment. This episode contains discussions around infertility, postnatal depression and panic attacks. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast Julia reader. Thanks so much for coming on, Julia. Thanks for having me, Allison. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Another hometown assets, which I'm really excited to chat to you. You you're a painter, and do drawing as well. What what sort of mediums do you work with mainly? So I primarily work with watercolor? I have been dabbling in a bit of acrylic. They're the main things that I use. Yeah. Obviously, watercolor for most, I think that's probably what I'm probably most known for. But yeah, like, I really love acrylic, too, because it's sort of like the polar opposite to watercolor, you can paint over things if you stuff them up. But with watercolor, it's not so much the same. So in that respect there, like almost two completely different ways of working. And I like to challenge myself sort of at both ends of the spectrum. Yeah, right. So how did you first get into painting? That's a really good question. I teach watercolor classes. And I say to people that I can never actually remember the first day, or the first time that I picked up a paintbrush with watercolor and started painting. Yeah, I do remember doing a like a little watercolor painting for an exhibition. And I was invited to be part of an exhibition for a local group called the soul sisters collective, which is actually a group that I'm now a part of. But I yeah, I remember doing this little watercolor painting, I remember thinking that it was absolutely terrible. But it was what I did. And I was willing to frame it and put it up on the wall. And then there was probably like, a few years after that, that I didn't touch anything watercolor related. And then yeah, somehow I fell back into it. And I really have no idea how it started. I'd like I can't even tell you whether I was at home or sitting at my office. But it was just something that really just evolved very naturally. You know, there was a lot of practicing a lot of watching YouTube, because I am self taught. So there was just really lots of watching videos, looking at how people used it. And then from there it was, I guess. Consistency is what I always say is like, it's the game changer for I think anything if we're consistent with something, then we will see the results. But yeah, it was just a case of yeah, just painting, you know, you might want to make just once a week and then as I started to sort of see an improvement and maybe had a little bit more time. I would paint a couple of times a week and then there was a couple of points where I was doing like a painting a day. And I think I think I started doing that when Jack was about Eating. No, he wasn't he, he was only 10 months old. And I looked back on it. And I just think like, that was just such a crazy thing for me to commit to. Actually, it was actually not a painting a day, it was a project called the 100 Day project. So it was 100 days of painting. And obviously, I didn't do it over 100 days, it probably went to like 150 days, I did 100 paintings. And I think I bombed out at about 75 with Jack, because it was just too much. And I was starting to get to a point where I was really not enjoying it as much. Because there was a lot of pressure for me to sort of put something out on my social media. But yeah, yeah, just a natural level of illusion, evolution sorry, where I just went from not really touching it to wanting to play paint with it all the time. Developing a really a real love for it. And I think that's just sort of where it's that love has led me to where I am today with watercolor in particular. Yeah. So you said what's kind of happening at the moment with you with the acrylics, you sort of discovered this new thing? And you're sort of learning and similar kind of, sort of pricing? So yeah, I think I mean, look, I've still got a huge amount to learn with watercolor like, I would never like, yeah, I guess I know that I've got so much to develop as far as watercolor goes, it's such a technical medium. But yeah, I found acrylic and acrylics, almost like the sort of playful thing that I can do on the side that still creative. And if, if I don't do it very well, I can literally paint over it. And I can start again. And let me tell you, I have got canvases here that have got like about five or six paintings that have been painted over, you know, so many times, and like there's even paintings that people have purchased from me recently. And they would have no idea that there's actually three paintings that they've actually purchased. Maybe one day if I ever get rich and famous, which is really not the intention. Maybe maybe those people one day will discover that there's like all these hidden artworks underneath the one that they purchased maybe acrylic is I just find it like it's sort of like reversible. So like if I if I do something wrong, I can literally let it dry and come back and paint over that section. watercolors just not you can't do that. So yeah, it's a little bit strange, I guess that you've got like these two different mediums that that work in two completely different ways. Yeah, I'm drawn to how each of them work individually. And I think there's some days where I feel like I want that challenge of watercolor. And then there's days when I feel like I just need the ease of acrylic. So but yeah, look, acrylics, definitely something that I enjoy. So I can see that that's probably something that I'll continue to do. And for me, the moment is just working out how I bring the two together. So that my body of work looks, I guess cohesive, obviously, because they're two different things. They look different. I can achieve different things with each medium. So I can do things with perhaps acrylic that I couldn't do with watercolor. So they sort of take on a life of their own. Yeah, that mentally for me at the moment is just working out how I can sort of bring the three together. And when somebody sees that particular work, they can say, oh, yeah, that's Julia's work. Whereas at the moment, I feel like there's probably a bit of a divide. So I'm just going through that at the moment trying to work out how to sort of gel the two. So yeah, when you say that, I think yeah, you've got definitely a recognizable watercolor style, like I think, certainly anyone local. And I mean, I'm not in the art world at all. So I'm not sure how, yeah, white things spread, but certainly anyone in the mound that would see that would go oh, that's Julius, which is really cool. Then quite a few of my walk can't quite get it around for it. So I've got my little collection of things. And then I've got my kids stuff behind me, which is, you know, a mishmash of stuff, but I love and don't look, I'm not showing you the other side because that's absolutely love because I can't draw I can't do that. I love having those sort of things around me. They sort of inspire me creatively create creatively and the other the other things that I do so yeah, thanks. You for being awesome at supporting me so going back to the beginning, you talked about the soul sisters collective when you created your first watercolor. So what sort of creating or work were you doing at that stage? So back then, and I'm just going to pull a year out, I think that was about 2015. It could have been it could have been a year earlier or so. So back then, my creativity was my graphic design. Right, that was really all it was at that point. I wasn't painting. Like I wasn't, yeah, I just wasn't doing anything other than graphic design at that point. And I was actually quite at that point, I was really fulfilled in my graphic design career, which is something that I'm like, I'm still doing it today. It's still of my business. But I think, yeah, I was just in need of something else. And that's sort of when the painting started to happen. But yeah, back in 2015, it was just, I was a graphic designer, I was friends with a lot of the people that were in the soul sisters collective, which are all born at the time were all, like, sole traders working for themselves all female in, in our Gambia. So yeah, it was a real honor to be able to join their exhibition, because like, I was really quiet. sort of been aware of all of those people, because they were all sort of doing this business for themselves. And at that point in time, I never saw myself owning my own business. So yeah, it was really lovely to be able to join them. But like I was highly critical of the work that I put out. Obviously, I wasn't, I wouldn't have called myself a painter or anything at that point. I was literally just dabbling in this watercolor that I must have found somewhere because I can't even I don't even think I probably have the original watercolor that I was using on that particular painting. And yeah, just really highly critical of what I did. I've still got hanging on my wall here, so it can't be that bad. Yeah, at the time, I was just really honored to be a part of the exhibition. But I was also like, yeah, not not loving anything that I did at that point. So yeah. Sort of reaching back in your graphic design, how did you get into that? Was that something you've did at school, or you've always been sort of into that sort of stuff? Yeah, I've always been quite creative. Even as a child. I, I've always gravitated towards the arts. I remember having a science teacher who just used to tell me that I was not going to get anywhere with art. And I should just apply myself in his science lessons, because this is where it was at. I know, like, you know, as a kid, I think I when I say a kid, I was probably like, 1616 when he was saying this? Yeah, I always just, I just never wanted to apply myself in math, science or anything. And I really do believe that we've got like a brain for creativity. And we've got a brain for all those really sort of technical subjects. I really enjoyed English, I loved creative writing. So anything that had an element of creativity where I could explore, like, my ideas, and I could express myself in some way. Were the subjects that I was drawn to, in saying that I was never like, into drama or anything like that. But um, yeah, I was very much into art. I did art I did design, I had a very supportive design teacher. And when I first started design, like he really liked, fostered an interest in my work. And I think from there I think I always knew that I was going to be a graphic designer. I had a period where I thought I would be an architect. But yeah, I got into sort of my, my later years of secondary school and I knew that graphic design was where I was headed. I got to year 11 Sorry, year 12 And the workload was just like intense. And I decided to split my YouTube up over two years. So I could really focus on my design. And I can't remember what my final grade was in design that I think it was like nine out of 20 or something. There was some like, technical thing that stopped me from getting the 20. But anyway, doesn't really got moderated down because the state wasn't good. Yeah, that's right. And so from there, I actually studied through TAFE. And it was such a fantastic. It was such a fantastic way to learn because it was so hands on. And so I did my first year in Mount Gambia, I did my second year in Adelaide, and I lived with a couple of girls who one I'm still very good friends with today are actually friends with both of them today. But one, like our friendship has just continued on. And we both have very similar interests, even today. And we're all two of us are still graphic designers. The other isn't. But yeah, it was such a great experience. I lived with some people that were studying graphic design through university. And so I got to see how the two courses compared and I was just really happy with choosing that one. Because I think if I was sitting in a lecture theatre learning these things day in and day out, it would I would have lost interest I needed to like, see how it worked practically in a, like a specific setting. And I got to do that. So yeah, I still very much love graphic design. But I'm just understanding that there's so much more to what I can offer. Yeah, and yeah, I totally recommend graphic design to anyone out there is still I think it's still a fairly popular sort of choice for younger people. Yeah, that especially today, this always social media, and everyone's creating images for promotion. And these little, little, what do they call tiles? You know, on the Instagram? Oh, yeah. Like, it's Yeah, Canvas, definitely. Like, I think it's definitely got a place. And yeah, like just having the skills of graphic design is like really helpful for me, even in my art business, and being able to promote myself and keep sort of a consistent theme amongst my look and creating that brand. So there's like huge benefits to having that knowledge behind me. And I can see that it's probably something that I'll eat depending on, you know, how my career plays out. And, you know, I don't tie myself down to anything. I feel like my options are always open with what I could be. But I can see that that skill set that I've developed as a graphic designer will certainly carry through I think probably every job that I do. You've got that understanding of it is yeah, yeah, for sure. There's so much there's so much to it. It's such a broad, broad job. And every time people say to me, or what do you do? And it's like, oh, gosh, where do I start? Like, really varied? Which I love so much. Like, there's someone like me that felt like I can't I always thought to be good at art, you had to be able to draw something that looked like the thing you were drawing. That was my thing in my head. And because I couldn't do that. I thought I can't do it. But then when I I knew nothing about mediums, different texts, different. Whatever's paints, when I did that watercolor, I was like, Oh, well, you can do whatever you want. Like it just I just I had no boundaries, no barriers. It just became this amazing. I don't know, just even the way you got us to practice doing circles and learning. Like you said before, it's so technical, how different like amounts of water on your brush, create different things and just completely opened my eyes. I'd never looked at things that way. I didn't understand things. So I highly recommend it to anybody that doesn't know anything. I say joy because it's amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's, um, I think like, in most things in our lives, we probably like have a set of expectations on how we need to do that thing. and like, that includes everything from parenting down to like, I don't know how you hang your washing on the line. You know, like, we've got a set way we think things need to be done. And what I love about teaching watercolor is just giving people an opportunity to use creativity. And a lot of the times it's creativity that people didn't think they ever had. So I really believe that every person on this earth has got an element of creativity in them, I don't think we can survive if we don't. So, you know, it's just giving yourself permission to be able to, to use it. giving yourself time and also taking away the the expectation that you need to be good at it. Because it's unrealistic. So I think that if, if I had picked up watercolor on that first day that I did, and I expected to paint this amazing painting, and I didn't achieve it, I would never have picked it up again. But I gave myself some grace. And you know, whether I did that, I probably did it subconsciously, I probably didn't make the decision to go easy on yourself, Julia. But I just, I just went with almost like a childlike playful, you know, just go and see what it can do. And then, you know, I obviously enjoyed it. I didn't have I didn't feel like I failed. And then I could come back again and try again and then come back again and try again. And and then would you believe it? I've liked building this skill set, that's actually starting to make sense. And I'm getting a better understanding of the medium. So in the workshops, that's like, one of the first things I say is, and I had a workshop, like literally on Friday night, and I said to the girls there if if you have like any degree of OCD, like trying to like perfectionism control issues, watercolor watercolor will let you know, you'll, you'll get to a point where you just like the frustration will be there and it will test you. So like, you know what I was totally in that category. I was. Yeah, like, probably my, my need to control things was like, super highlighted when I when I had a newborn, because my control was, I couldn't control this little human. And, you know, it was months and months of me. You know, just trying to trying to get into trying to create a routine that fit in with me. And it all went terribly pear shaped like Christmas have must have been 2017 Duck was six months old. And like I literally had a meltdown on Christmas Day, because I think it was just I put such huge expectations on myself for that whole six months. And then Christmas day came and I knew that I had to be here and I had to be there and then had to fit in a sleep here. And I was very like, and I still I still am today. I'm still quite routine base. And like I think my son actually needs that sort of routine too. But certainly like that first six months was just a complete undoing. And I got to Christmas day and I just literally had actually call it a panic attack. When I look back now I really found it very hard to read. And my thoughts were like, I could not like line up. The first thing I should do the next thing to the next thing. And I just remember feeling like I was just losing my mind. And so Christmas Day was like a massive unraveling for me. And it also was the biggest highlight of I actually have to surrender, like and surrender was like the biggest word. It's probably the biggest word that I've adopted or a principle that I've adopted through my whole parenthood so Jack's only for now. And I'm still learning how to surrender like, I still I think I've I think I was like, almost forced to do it back at that six month point on Christmas Day. But then I still have these moments where I'm like, surrender Juliet. Like you can't control everything. You know, everything will happen as it's meant to. It's a trust. It's just having faith that it's all you You know, evolving as it's meant to. But yeah, but just going back to the board call workshops, the control. Yeah, it's definitely something that watercolor will highlight did a couple of like painting a day for I think I've done it like two or three months now, where I've just picked a month, and then I've painted something like maybe one particular subject, or I've just painted anything I want one day each month. And I did a lot of that because, yeah, I had this like perfectionist trait, which really stifled my creativity. And it was just really good to be able to commit to something and like, let everybody know that this was this thing that I was going to do. So I was being held accountable by people, because I literally would have people message me and say, Oh, hi, I didn't see your painting today. Which is great, because like, this is what I this is what I needed. Painting every day meant that I didn't actually have time to be perfect. Sometimes I only had five minutes. Yep, some days, I might have had a couple of hours. And so it was a really great way of like breaking that that thought pattern of you have to get this right, because I could I could see that that was an issue. And I think just flicking right back to that day that I had a meltdown. It was you know, it was highlighted to me back then that I had this tendency to want to get everything right and have everything work perfectly in this certain way. And so then, as I was becoming more and more aware of that, as I parented as I painted, I was putting myself in positions that I could really like challenge that way of thinking. And so these these months that I would paint every day really sort of reversed my thinking around that. And so now when I go and teach watercolor, it's the probably the main thing that I try and get across is, like, let go of your expectations. And like this is not just painting, I think this can just go right across the board. We we really are super hard on ourselves. And I think let me know, I'm talking about my experience here. But I have spoken to so many other mothers and we all fall in this trap of you know, we've just got to get it right. And you know, we need to have control. And I just don't think it's fair on ourselves. I don't think it's reasonable. And it's not fair on our children either. Because they're their own little people. And they're not supposed to be controlled to the nth degree like, so. Yeah, what a journey it's been. Let me tell you, it's like you created your own form of therapy. Like you worked out. Yeah, you needed to do you used your art as that, that tool? Yeah, that's quite incredible. I think, um, I think, like, I'm such a believer in, you know, people come into our lives as they're supposed to experiences come in, I think children come into our lives when they're supposed to. And, like, I've always had a real trust that I would be given the things that I need to get me through at the time. And painting, especially watercolor is like highly therapeutic. And I had a girl sitting next to me on Friday night. And she said I would pay to just come here and watch you put the paint on the paper. Because it's like she said I'm mesmerized by it. As and I've heard this by so many people and I even do this when I watch other people painting. So it's not just the people who have never seen watercolor be used before get like in a trance. Yeah, watching being painted. It's me watching and I know I've painted enough now to like, yeah, if I watch somebody painting, I can get really just really sucked in and just watch it. There's a huge therapeutic benefit to I'll just say watercolor because that's what I know. And it's it's also just like sort of that flowing sort of medium. So I think, yeah, certainly something that I've considered is like, actually studying art therapy, because I think, yeah, we're gonna die in an age where I think it's probably needed. Like, don't don't probably think it's needed. It's needed. So, yeah, yeah, you bring up about watching people, I love watching people on Instagram, I'll just watch people paint. Like, I love it so much. It's like, it started started off. I think it's an interesting to work out how people make things from not having any understanding of, of how people create art, and really, the processes. And then yeah, like, I love it, when people post their actual videos of them painting. It's like a, like a meditation, I suppose you just get lost in it. And it's just, it gives you something. It's just incredible. I don't quite know how to explain it. But I don't know. It's just a beautiful thing to witness. And then I'll like write a comment on someone's Oh, I love love watching you pay. And there'll be like, Oh, I wasn't sure if I should share it or not. You know, people feel that. I don't know that nervousness about putting it out there because I suppose they feel judged. I don't know if that's the right word. But there. Yeah, but that I don't think they realize how much people get out of it, you know, tiny, tiny little thing that they share, like 30 seconds or a minute or whatever. Yeah, it's awesome. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that I've noticed anytime I paint, post anything live, like, on live, but you know, if I do like a time lapse of a painting or something, I can always guarantee that someone will say, I just loved watching that. And it might not be that they loved the actual painting or Yeah, the subject or whatever, they just love watching the paint go on the paper. So yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty special actually feel quite privileged to be able to one sort of have an understanding of watercolor, because it is something that takes me to time. And I'm also very privileged to be able to pass that on to people. And I just love the fact that I have people that come back, and come back and come back to these workshops. So if there was any sort of, if I needed any sign that I was sort of doing the right thing, it's just that people come back and they want to keep learning and, you know, putting themselves in a position where they can try this out so. With your teaching, did you find any sort of challenges in that? Or did you sort of jump into it like yet? I'm really, I want to share I don't have any sort of hang ups about, you know, being in front of a crowd? Like, did it come to you really naturally? Or did you have any sort of challenges? Um, I think like, probably just nervousness, but I think that would be pretty normal. Next, anyone? The actual teaching side of it was so just, I'll just take one step backwards. I'm an I'm one of these people that overthink everything. I am super analytical. So I can almost talk myself into something and out of something in the same flight thought, yeah, yeah. And so the way that the workshops came about was I think I might have put up a video of me planning something. And someone said, Oh, I'd love for you to teach me how to do that. And then I put up a story on Instagram that just said, is there anyone out there who would like to learn watercolor? And it was like one of those questions, yes or no? And then I got lots of yeses. Yeah. And literally, it all happened within like, a few hours. I think like, this is the beauty of like, when you when you when you sort of done something over and over again, like I've done, I can't count probably how many workshops I've done now. When you look back to like, what was the first like, when did you start doing this? And it's like, oh, it was this. It was just this really flippant decision to put up an Instagram story. And like, that's where it started. It wasn't over thought it wasn't something that I planned for months or years or anything like that. It was just this one really defining moment that was just very organic. Yep. And and it all started from there. And, like, yeah, I just love the fact that I'm here I am, like, a few years down the track still teaching these workshops, still getting people coming to my classes. And yeah, it was just this. Just this really, like, fleeting moment where I was almost like just this change in my direction. Yeah. Yeah. So grateful for that. Yeah. It sort of links in what you were saying before about, you know, believing that things happen at the right time, things will happen. Yeah, you know, it's like, you made that decision. And instantly, it was all opened up for you, because it was like, it's almost like when you manifest something, you know, that. Obviously, you hadn't thought about that for a while. But it's like, it was like, you're ready. It's gonna happen. Now, you know what I mean? It just off it went, it's like, yeah, I love that, too. And I think, you know, you just you follow the things that feel right and good. And I think a lot of that's intuition, which is something that I've, like, worked on for a long, long time. So like, I really do, try and listen to my gut. And I really do try and yeah, just just follow the things that really light me up. You know, I hopefully, like, whether I even listen back to this podcast, my own voice, I don't know. But if I do, I would love to be able to hear the excitement in my voice around watercolor. Because if I was talking about cooking, like it would be different, you wouldn't, you wouldn't pick it up. But I was like, really enjoying this thing. So I'm pretty sure if I could compare the two, you know, and it's that it's that excitement and that joy that comes through in the way you deliver something or the way you talk about it that? Like, they're the things that I want in my life. Yeah. And like I said to you at the start, I don't rule anything out. I don't know where I'll be in five or 10 years time, maybe I won't be teaching watercolor, but maybe I'll like, maybe I'll have an art school. Or maybe I'll be an art therapist, or I just always want to keep chasing the thing that lights me up. Because I think that's when you're really on path. That's when you're really doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing in this lifetime. So yeah, I'll just keep tracing. I love that. It's like you're so open to whatever can come in. And yeah, listening to your intuition and going yeah, actually, I feel like doing that. I'm gonna do that, you know? Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, don't get me wrong, there are days when my head definitely talked a lot and you still have to pay bills, Julio, and you can't do that. You know, it's a slow burn, I think if you just give yourself the the space to entertain the idea at least, then you've sort of like planted a seed and, and whether it grows into something or not, is probably just a matter of time so. So let's talk about Jack. So Jack, please board now. And you mentioned that when he was 10 months old, you made the decision to do your your picture your painting your day. Yes. So how does Jack sort of fit in with your, with your art? Are you able to create while he's there or sort of how does that sort of look on a day to day basis? Yeah. So first six months of, of Jack was pretty much like Groundhog Day. Like I'm not gonna lie, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat parenting. It was bloody hard. Yeah, and I'm very, very self aware person. I didn't go into parenting thinking that was going to be easy but like He literally cracked me open. And like, I'm grateful for that now, but back at the time, I think if I was going to really be completely honest, I probably had postnatal depression and found it very hard asking for help. And I've always been very proud and very independent sort of person. So I felt like I should be able to do this. And if I asked to help others be judged. So the first six months, not a lot, but about 10 months, I think he was probably getting into a routine of better sleep. And I'll just say here that he's like four years old, and still wakes up in the middle of the night. So I'm okay with that. Now, I'm totally okay with that now, because I've surrendered to it. But yeah, like, by 10 months, I think I felt like I needed to, I was trying to claim a piece of myself back. I felt like a given and given and given and it was, it was a real slog. And I wasn't getting a lot of sleep still at 10 months, not getting a lot of sleep. But I think I just needed to try, I knew that I needed to give myself something. But I didn't know. I think it was just the thing that I could see myself able to do at a kitchen table at nighttime. So it was still in my house, I didn't have to go anywhere to do it. And it was therapeutic, like I did enjoy the actual painting side of it. So I definitely, definitely tried it, I got all I did pretty well, I got to 75 days, and then decided I actually made it quite clear. I said to everyone on social media, I can't actually I just can't do this anymore. Like, I actually I'm really proud of the fact that I've got to 75 days, but I can't, like I just can't keep doing it. And it was great, I got a good response. It's like, you know, you've done amazing, we can't believe you've done that with a timer, or baby or whatever. So, after that point, like creating with Jack was just very, very intermittent. It was just, you know, most of the time, if I had a spare couple of hours while he was sleeping, you know, I was actually working like souls back doing my graphic design trying to work within sleep time. So I really wasn't creating a lot at all. Still, like biggest being creative with my, what I call my real job graphic design. But like I wasn't painting, I wasn't like I wasn't, yeah, doing it consistently by any means. Today, as well, I guess, you know, jumping to today's probably cutting out a huge portion of his life. But I think just as he got older, I was able to do a little bit more with him around. But generally now I try and carve out time when I haven't got him or when it might be a weekend and he can be out playing with his dad. And you know, I can sort of just get a mental run on. Like, it's quite hard to explain. I mean, I'm not sure whether it's the same fee, Allison, whether you're writing music, or like producing it or however you do it. But when you're in the zone, you're in the zone, and when you get snapped out like it's very hard to be pulled out of it and then come back in it like and that might just be even like him Jack sticking his head in the door and saying, Hey, Mom, I'm hungry. That can really like snap you out of your like your train of thought. And yeah, like I think that's probably been the trickiest part is when you've got that real creative urge that you just you know that you need to just go in and paint something and you can't do it. So you feeling you get very frustrated and feel a little bit creatively stifled when you can't use that creative energy. And then when you're able to use the creative energy, but you're getting into interrupted. And yeah, and so I think the way that works best for us now is if I just on my own, and I can just do it, and I don't get bothered. And like this is not happening all the time, let me tell you like, but it's amazing. I think it's amazing what you can achieve in a short amount of time when you do have children. Something that might have taken me a few days to achieve like I can literally like do it in a couple like couple of hours. Yeah. So you Learn to use your time very wisely. And you learn to be very intentional with the time that you have. I think so. Yeah, look, it's very much I grab what I can get when I can get it at the moment. Yeah, the time that I can get to create, that's what that's how it works at the moment. But I know down the track, you know, two years time, or kindy, next year, and then school the year after. And I know that a lot of things will open up for me in that in that period of Jack's life. And I don't want to lose sight of like what I've got with him at the moment and the time that I have with him at the moment. So I don't wish I had more time. I'm just taking the time that I've got. Because I know that this is just, this is the season of my life at the moment, and it will change and then it will change again, and it'll all change again. So we'll just continue to do Yeah. Yeah, and you're you're good with change you you like, you know, you're obviously sound like you're accepting that. Do you think that ties into your connection with nature that you, you spend a lot of time, you know, seeing things change? Seeing the leaves change? Seeing, you know? Yeah, I think that that helps. Yeah, I think. I think by nature I like. Yeah, it's probably a little odd really like, because I do like, I do like to know, I do like to know what's in store for me? Yeah, actually, it's really interesting. Yeah, I guess I like an element of control. But for the most part, I'm happy to I'm happy to just move in the direction that feels right. So I think, yeah, yeah, it's a really interesting question. Because I feel like I've probably got a little bit of, like, I've still got an element of control. I think I've probably always had that. But yeah, I'm just, I'm just very trusting of, like, I'm trusting that I'm going to be, I'm going to end up doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing. Have a real fight around it. But yeah, I mean, like, I literally love being out amongst the natural world. Like, it's so grounding for me. And, yeah, I think that probably does play a part in that, like, I see. Like I even said before, it's the season of my life, like, you know, I think I can see that. Like, we're all not meant to be doing the same things. Like every day, I go through phases where I want to be really, really creative. And then I go through like, a social media hiatus where I do not post anything, and like, I'm sure the algorithm hates me for it. But you know, like, I was on holidays recently. And the last thing I wanted to do was even look at social media, let alone post something. So no one heard from me for like, probably 10 days. But yeah, I go, I go through ways of, you know, wanting to be seen and heard. Sometimes I go through phases where I really feel like the thing that I'm thinking about needs to be heard by someone. So I like to like, you know, put it into words or whatever. And then I go through phases where I just literally want to withdraw from it all. And I honor that, like I don't, I'm not going to post just because I want to see me, you know, because the algorithm won't like me I really couldn't care less about but yeah, I think I definitely like to just go with the flow. And I think you're right, probably tying that back into like the nature side of things is probably perfect. Let's delve into the two topics that I particularly like to talk about. First one's mum guilt and put that in air quotes. How do you feel about mum guilt? How do I feel about it? Okay, so if you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be, Alison, you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt, but I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today, where I feel like I could be doing better, should be making a different decision. I think it's, I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't, but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom? Is that what they call it? Where you? Yeah. Or you just really sacrifice yourself? For somebody else? And yeah, it's really interesting, because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being it's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood. And, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt like, I just sacrificed myself, I literally did. And I think when it came to that Christmas Day, when I, you know, everything fell apart. You know, it really highlighted to me that I needed to take better care of myself, like I was not eating well, I literally just ate the scraps. And that's not to say that I didn't have like, my partner, cooking me meals and stuff, like I still ate, you know, well, but you know, just just eating toast on the go. And, you know, not just making decision that actually had to look after myself. So, yeah, it took a while to get my head around that. But um, I think, yeah, just getting back to what you said, Mom, Gil is, it's alive. It's happening, it happens. And I think what we all we can do is really like support, especially new moms. To understand, uh, give, give them give them the the ability to be able to, you know, spend time on themselves, you know, going there helping them. But you know, it's not just new moms as well, it's, it's, I think it's mums in general. Yeah. Just yeah. All have kids of all ages. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really important point. Because, I mean, I'm not obviously I'm not begrudging the newborn stage, because I know that it's hell, I've done it twice. And it's really hard. That's the thing like, it's, it's almost like, well, you're over this hard stage, you'll be fine. Now off you go. You know, it's like, the Thank you, right. Looking out for mums of, of children at any stage in any age is really important. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I can only speak of, you know, the first four years. But I know that it's like, it's still things that you know, an example is, you know, I've got work that I have to get done. I've got deadlines, I, I work well, at the moment, I'm not working from home, but I'll likely be back working from home soon. And you know, if there's a time that I need to jump on my computer and finish something off, and Jack comes up to me and says, Mom, can you come play with me? And I have to say, Nobody, I've got to get something done for work, you know, there's an element of guilt in that. But the reality is that that's life. You know, I do have to get this thing done. And so I can I can reflect on that and say, Well, you know, you did have to do the thing that you did earlier. But it doesn't mean that I don't have that moment where I think, you know, I should be playing with him, because this is what he wants. Yeah, so yeah, it's a tricky one, the whole manual situation, but I totally believe it's there. Yeah. It's an endless thing isn't it's like, one day, you might feel like, yeah, you got it. Right. And then the next day, you feel like you're the worst moment? Absolutely. Yeah. It's a constant thing. You mentioned briefly their ties into my second point about identity, where you said, you're still the same person you were before you had children. Obviously, it's a belief that you hold. So one of my friends had a baby, years before I had Jack. And I watched her go through. I watched her lose. I've watched her. I didn't watch her lose her identity. But I watched her. Talk about losing her identity, and then trying to reclaim it back. And I remember saying to her, you're still a person you were before you had your baby. Like, you're still my friend, I still remember you when I like, studied with you live with you. So like, that hasn't changed for me. But she had lost sight of that. And I couldn't quite get my head around it at the time. And I was really trying to explain it to her. And it wasn't until I had Jack that I understood what happens. And you do lose yourself. Like, I don't think it matters how? Well I don't know, I can't speak for everyone, but certainly for me. Like I totally lost myself. I didn't know who I was, I knew that I knew what I enjoyed doing before I had Jack. And I knew that I now had a baby. Obviously couldn't make them both work at the same time. So I felt like I was in this like limbo state. And it took, it took a while for me to work out. Actually, it was sort of like a process of rent reinventing myself. That's how I felt it. It played out. I started trying to paint again, it obviously didn't like go, how I planned. And it was still very hit and miss as far as when I could actually be creative and when I couldn't. But I think what it did was it made me realize what I actually wanted to do. I started to get really clear on the direction that I wanted to take. And I sort of think I had a friend say to me, I think Jack was only quite young, he might have been six months old. And I have a friend or she actually a client as well, who said to me, Julia, when you become a mom, she said you've only got a certain amount of like bullshit that you can tolerate in a day. So when you've reached your threshold, you know you're done. And I I always remember that because I just remember thinking like it. Like I just didn't have time for a lot of stuff that I didn't have any interest in. So I think I just I just I started to become really clear on the direction I wanted to take. I became very clear on the people that I wanted around me and the people I didn't need around me. A lot of things just started to To like very much very slowly, but over time, making more and more sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I started to reinvent myself. And yeah, I honestly believe that's why I'm where I am today, because I just didn't have I just didn't have the energy for meaningless things. And so I was just trying to follow the things that felt right and felt good. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like this, this new perspective of, like, I only have this amount of time. And I'm not going to give this time to stuff that that doesn't feel good for me or is, you know, feels like it's being wasted on stuff. That's irrelevant. And, yeah, I think naturally, you know, when your life changes that much, I think naturally, things just drop away. And like that, that goes for friendships, jobs, beliefs, I think just the things that don't serve you anymore, or perhaps were not really sustaining in the first place. You just don't have time for them. Or they don't have time for you anymore. So I think. Yeah, look, I think you get like, I think motherhood is just such a pivotal point in a woman's life, I don't think you can, you can ever expect that you're going to be the person that you were before. I think is so unrealistic. But you don't know that until you doing it. Yeah. Let's see, it's very much it's very much a learned and learned experience or a learning lesson. So you have you have to experience it together. It's like that joke if you had to be there. When you said before about control with, with Jack, when I had Digby, sorry, when I had Alex, I was exactly the same. I just wanted everything to go, how I needed it to go. Like, I remember one day, I had a similar experience to you, but perhaps not on the same scale that I wanted to go and watch Ben, he was cycling at that stage. So what I'm watching, right, so I'd worked out the whole day of when he had to get out when he had to sleep all this stuff to say that I could go watch. And it didn't work. And I just lost it. I was like, I can't do anything anymore. Because I've got this kid and blah, blah. And I remember my mother in law said he's not going to be this young forever is going to change. And I was like, we're like, I didn't hear that. You know, it didn't mean anything at the time. And then when he did start to change as of this morning period of Oh, no, he's not a baby anymore. But you know, like, Mr. Graham said, we don't wish it away. Don't Don't wish him to be older. So yeah, when I had D, I was the complete opposite. And I think it helped because I had been working in childcare for quite a while. And I had to excite, I saw all the myriads of ways that children could be raised and how their routines could be. And I had this whole new outlook on on parenting. And also there were seven years between them, so I hadn't quite grown up as the two and eggs. I just let it happen as it happened. And I was just such a more relaxed mother. Yeah, just I could completely, completely relate to that. Your experience. When you said, like, you know, you had this thing you wanted to be doing at the end of the day, so like, you will try and organize wake sleep. lunch late, you know, and I did the same thing. It was like, yeah, the pressure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I didn't really touch too much on the spiritual side of things. But like, yeah, like, it's, maybe it's not the same for everyone. But for me, it was like a very, very, like it was it was an awakening of sorts, it was sort of like, you know, you you can't control everything. Like, you're not meant to control everything. So I just feel like I've been cracked open multiple times through this parenting experience. And it's been, it's been like, I would never ever trade it for anything in the world. But I'm also not going to gloss over it and pretend that it was easy because I think we say so much of that. And I feel like people go into parenting with this like me, you don't want to make them feel like it's going to be doom and gloom otherwise You know, the Human Rights Code at the end? You know, like, but you want to give them some honest, like, give them some honest accounts of what you've been through. Because then it also validates the people that are in it doing it, thinking that life is just like, yeah, it is hard and to have people come along and say, like, even when you're in your depths, and someone comes along and says, this won't last forever, don't wish this away. It's like, no, but can you just like, can you just sit with me in this place that I'm in at the moment and actually validate that I'm, it's okay for me to be thinking this thing at the moment. Like, yeah, yeah, it's valid. Yeah, yeah. I don't think enough of that goes on, that you're actually you're allowed to feel what you're feeling. It's okay to fear feeling. And let yourself feel that way. You know, when one comes along and says, you know, Julia, this might be forever, and then you get that element of guilt. You know, like I should be, I should be more thankful and grateful. Yeah, like, I went through an infertility journey leading up to having Jack and that was four years. And then when I had him to have all these feelings of like, you know, like my life, I remember feeling trapped. I remember sitting on the toilet one day, just thinking, I'm just trapped. And like, I'm just, I can't get out of this. Yep. I remember having thoughts of blackjack not being able to sleep. So. So when when I was trying to put him to bed because this was bedtime, trying to get him to sleep, persisting, persisting, persisting, almost going insane. When really, I should have just got him up. Got Back Up. He's not ready to sleep yet. Put him back down later, but no, in my head. This was bedtime. Yeah. And I so I drove myself like, crazy. And I remember thinking, I wish he had a reset button that I could like, I remember having those thoughts of like, I wish I could literally just press a button that turned him off. And he went to sleep. Yeah. So like, I look back on my sports now. And I'm like, God, that was crazy. But you're in the depths of it like, and when you're having that little thought to yourself in that dark room, and no one else is seeing or hearing it. You know, you nobody knows what you're going through. Do that. Like nobody. Nobody hears that little thought that you have? No. Yeah. So yeah. All right, it was bloody hard. You didn't know any better. And I think that's where you need to give yourself grace. You just you didn't know any better. And if you did it all again, and you have you do it differently, because you've learned and you're easier on yourself. And, you know, I hope that I get to do it again. But I know that if I do it would be totally different. I'll have a different perspective. And you know, Jack's four years old, maybe I'll have a seven year gap to you know, like, and I'm actually okay with that. Because I think I don't think I could have done it any other way. Oh, yeah, I don't think but I don't think I could back up children like you know, and I'm not no disrespect to anyone who like wants the two year gap or the whatever. But I don't personally think that I could have ever achieved it. If I had a fallen pregnant when Jack was two years old, I would have cried myself to sleep every night like I just don't believe that I was meant to have you know, yeah, so Oh, you know, the beauty of hindsight Hey, sort of look back and yeah, but it is what it is. And you know, we just did the best we could really so which wasn't really that bad? So you've recently set up a space outside your home for your work? Yeah, yeah. Is that going going good? No, it's going really well. I'm I'm probably there for a little bit longer as in maybe a month to six weeks, something like that. But I yeah, I was offered a Be the back section of a coffee shop in Mount Gambia called confession. Who does delicious coffee by the way? That's been the downfall. So much caffeine. But yeah, look, I got to a point where I needed a I just wanted a space that wasn't at home. I could see that. Like, I wasn't getting a lot done here. So I felt like I needed like some way that I could actually go to work. I've been working from home for I think, eight years, actually not nine years. And for the most part, it's been fantastic. But yeah, I actually put something up on Instagram one day. And it was just like, does anybody have a place? I'm sort of in need of a space to work from can be, can be formal, it can be informal, I'm not going to rule out what it is where it is. Yeah, so I just sort of, you know, put it out to the universe and. And then, like, I was probably buying copies everyday from confession at that point. Yeah. And then I got a message from Don on on a Thursday night to say, you know, we've got this space, businesses moved out of it, and they've found their own short brand. Do you have any interest in maybe working from there for a few months, and really, just to fill a hole? So it was going to be just an empty room? And they didn't want that? So without even thinking? I just thought, yeah, absolutely. Like, what is the worst that can come of this, I am either incredibly unproductive there. And I can work, I can just bring my stuff home and work from here if I need to. But I had this whole room that I could hang up my artwork, which has been leaning up against walls in my office for ages. So I just really saw it as an opportunity and a bit of an experiment. I still see it as an experiment. Yeah, I just couldn't see any negatives to it. So it's been fantastic. I have spoken to people that call, like it's a bit of a thoroughfare the room that I'm in. But like I get to chat to people that I've never met before, I've had some amazing encounters and conversations with people that have like, furthered me in some way, whether it's the way I think about something or, you know, just conversations with people who are trying to create art groups or other artists, or yeah, I've had the ability to work with alongside a couple of artists, and it's just fabulous being in that really sort of creative space with other people. Oh, yeah, I've had my artwork up on walls, I've been able to sell a couple of paintings, just expose myself to a group of people that I wouldn't normally come across. And it's been absolutely fantastic. And what I've learned from it is, as much as I classify myself as an introvert, I do need interaction with people. But I need it, I sort of need it on my terms, too. So I get a lot from working with other creative people. Just it doesn't, I don't have to be working on a project with them. But just being in their creative space is very important. And that I get a lot more done working from somewhere than working from home. Like it's amazing. How many times I probably catch myself underneath my clothesline hanging out washing. How did I even get here? You know, it's just like, I think you hear the washing machine go off. And before you know it, you you're hanging up the washing and it's like, Joey, you're working like so, yeah, I'm realizing now that there is a benefit to me not working from home. And I love the fact that I can go to work. And I come home and I feel like there's a division between the tote. Yep. And I feel like when I'm home, I'm home and I'm present. And these are just all things that I have haven't. I just haven't noticed because I haven't been able to work away from my office that is in my house. And now that I've had that opportunity on I think like from here and I'll be looking for somewhere that I can actually call my work space or my studio where I can be I just productive and have my own my own area. And I also know that I want to be able to work amongst other people. So, yeah, it's been fantastic. It's been so good for that. Yeah, absolutely. It's given you these, like, like we said before you don't you don't know. I guess you don't know what you don't know. So by experiencing things you've gone, yeah, this is good. Yeah. I think it's great to for people that, like, follow you on social media, they can actually go and meet you face to face to, which is, like, so important, I think to like, it's great that people build relationships online, but it's, I think it's, it's, especially with art, like you actually want to see and I don't want to say touch the person, but you want to be more of the the person that's making this. So yeah, to you know, you get the energy and pick up on the vibes and that sort of stuff, too. So, definitely, definitely the benefits that way as well. And for people to be able to, you know, touch and feel and you know, see work and yeah, it's great I'll just check ever get involved with you just say do painting or anything like that? Do you do it together? Yeah, definitely does. And Jack is like, he's he hasn't shown a huge interest in like art and stuff at the moment. There's also an element of me like, not wanting him to get pain everywhere. I was gonna I would definitely had died outside where he's unleashed his creative, his creative desires. But yeah, he's, yeah, like, he's definitely got creative creativity in him. But at the moment, he's just very much into anything with wheels. That makes noise. Yeah. He was funny, he was playing in doing some coloring in only a couple of days ago. And like, he colored outside of the line, okay, so He's four years old, colored outside of the line, and he colored over the top of the yellow headlight on the car. And he was he hated it. He told me, he was never going to pick up another colored pencil. And here I am, like, deciding going, you have done an amazing job Jack, like, you know, you're practicing, you're not you can't coloring in the lines, you know, you're not going to be able to do it properly for a little while. So I'm encouraging you, meanwhile, really saying a portion of myself inside of him, like, you know, trying to control things. But yeah, he, I don't think he doesn't really influence my work. The way that he does influence, I guess the way that he does influence my creativity in some way is that, you know, I want I want him to do the things that he loves to do. And I want him to explore the things that he loves to do. And I think, like, I can only lead by example, in that, in that respect. So I want him to know that, you know, I've had a lot of people say to me, Oh, you're you're the rd type. And, oh, what does it mean? Like I like to, I'd like to just get you to explain that to me. But um, you know, a lot of a lot of a lot of people think artists can't make money. But artists can make money. There's plenty of artists that make money there. us in this town making a lot of money by selling their stuff online. And yeah, to not sort of pigeonhole anything into you know, just give, give, just entertain the idea that you could be, you know, good at this thing. If it's not today, it could be, you know, in a month's time, or maybe it'll be 10 years time, but like, just persistence is the key. So, he influences me in that respect, but he doesn't necessarily influenced the things that I paint. That's very much a personal thing for me, so Yeah, but he's certainly part of the process. I guess. You can't he can't not be Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the Yeah. So I've got one more workshop left for the year. And that is on the fourth of December, that's a Saturday at the apple farm. That's a two hour workshop. And it includes sexually over three hours, there's a two hour workshop. And then there's an hour for lunch. And there'll be a delicious pizza and sort of shared platter lunch. And that's a very festive theme. So there'll be the opportunity to paint some, you know, gift tags and cards and stuff like that. It's quite a social, a social sort of afternoon. So it's not so much about learning a lot about how to paint watercolor is just giving you sort of the tools, the materials to be able to just have a bit of fun. And I'm sort of really like envisioning, you know, especially moms, I'm very, very feminine audience. And I just sort of want people to be able to say, oh, you know, we haven't worked with our friends for ages. Why don't we do this thing that's like our little Christmas catch up? Because we all know what sort of December looks like in most people's calendars. Yeah. Well, like a staff show or something like that. So it's such a beautiful venue, and I'm hoping that the weather is amazing. And, you know, good food, good company. You know, a bit of like, creativity, I think it's perfect. So yeah, that's, that's the workshop that I've got coming up. I've just launched my website. Congratulation one. Now, there's still a lot to go on there. But like, once again, something is better than nothing. And it's, it's an evolution at all, like, it'll just continue to evolve. But yeah, so I've got my website up. So my web address is Julia Rita creates.com. And I'm just about to kick off on a project run by April Hague, and Jane Van Eaton. So to like amazing artists in our Gambia, who were doing like fabulous things with regard to, like art education. And they, they just recently won a grant. And they've launching a project called The Portrait Project. And it's, I believe, it's 10 artists, we all have our photo taken. And then we all paint a portrait of either ourself or one other person in the group based on the portrait photo that was taken of us. And it's a project that will span over six months, and we get to spend time with like these 10 artists, and we get to sort of collaborate and discuss and just learn different techniques and styles. And I think it's just fantastic to sort of submerge yourself in a group of women that all have like a similar interest. And so yeah, I was so thrilled to be invited to do that. And it was, again, like one of those no brainer moment moments where I knew this was sort of like another experience that would like enhance the direction that I'm going in. And so eventually, once that project is tied up, our portraits will be printed on a large scale and actually put up in a public space. So yeah, like really confronting, because portraits are obviously not something that I paint, and let's face it, like I think everyone a, whether you're artistically minded, or not, like painting a face is actually quite, you know, stretching the skill set. And you guys to having your face out there, like that something to, you know, consider if there's any sort of, you know, well, I've got a big chin or you know, that sort of stuff, you know, it's Yeah, that's me. I've, I've I have fast forwarded my thoughts to that moment. But no, look, it's it's gonna be fantastic. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's only really just kicking off at the moment. But I think if you were interested in more on that particular project, you could go to if you look up April Hague haitch ag UAE on Instagram. She's got some information on there. But yeah, perhaps if they If I do set up a specific social media page, I'll let you know Alison so you can be on it to the specific Yes, Lily kids. Yeah, I'd love to keep keep her eye on that. And I'm sure a lot of people would be really interested in that too. Yeah. Seeing the progression of that. Oh, that sounds so great. Julie. A good one. Yeah. Lots of cool stuff happening. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I should also say that I am going to be at a market on the 10th of December. Yeah, at the city hall and that Gambia there's an artisans market there. So yeah, it was quite popular last time. So hopefully this time as well. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Zach Mander Australian comedian + announcer S4Ep103 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In the second of my Father's Day special podcast episodes. I welcome Zach Mander, a comedian, radio announcer and father of 2 from Brisbane Australia. Zach has hosted national radio shows on stations such as 2Day FM and FOX FM and specialises in clever and offbeat content. He is the self proclaimed 'Bluey detective delving in to the much loved Aussie kids show and providing witty observations. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission thanks to my APRA AMCOS mini online license. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes .....

Sarah Renzi Sanders US mixed media visual artist S1 Ep24 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Renzi Sanders is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland a suburb of Washington D.C USA, and a mother of 3. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother as well as the plethora of roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health, using the mask as a repeated symbol to hide the true self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah’s own meditation practice and creative vision are intrinsically linked as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. We chat about how Sarah draws on this meditation practice to create her art challenging the patriarchy in art and life, being your true authentic self, judgement and generosity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression and autism** Connect with Sarah on her website and instagram Find Sarah"s new series here Find Sarah’s Mixed Media Madonna project here Find Sarah’s Kensington Artists profile here Podcast - instagram / website Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for joining me. My guest today is Sarah Renzi Sanders. Sarah is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, DC, United States, and she's a mom of three. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother, as well as the plethora of other roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health. Using the mask is a repeated symbol to hide the truth self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah's own meditation practice, and creative vision are intrinsically linked, as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. Today, we chat about how Sarah draws on that meditation practice, challenging the patriarchy in art and in life, being your true authentic self judgment and generosity. This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression, and autism. Thank you so much for coming on today. Sarah, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I'm right in saying Happy Thanksgiving. Yes, yes. Last night, so I'm very glad that it's a feeling a bit full silver. I am but you know what, I had leftovers for breakfast and, and it was great. D tell me is it? I'm not totally familiar with thanksgiving. But is it almost bigger than Christmas? For you guys over there. It's like it's a really significant holiday or it's not bigger than Christmas. But it's kind of the kickoff to the Christmas season two. So one Thanksgiving is over. Then we're bombarded with, you know, the Christmas commercials and the Christmas songs and the radio and like it's time to buy stuff. It's like right off you guys. It's exciting. So So you're in a place called Kensington in Yes, Dairyland. Can you tell me a bit about I did a bit of googling. I was actually really interested in your weather. I have this thing what people's weather's like. So you're in? You're in winter over there now? Yes, yes. So cold, windy. Every once in a while we'll have a nice day. That get air will get up to like 60 Because it's fall. But for the most part, it's pretty cold and windy. Like 30 degrees ish is the average at this point. Yeah, I'm just gonna do a quick conversion and see what that is in Celsius. Yeah. Oh, that's alright. Hang on. I'm gonna look it up. We're about 10 miles outside Washington DC. Maybe a little less than that. Yes. Yeah. So is that like, minus one? So? I mean, 32. Freezing? Yeah. So it's not terrible. It's actually been a pretty mild fall so far. But yeah, it hurts your face. Well, where I live, we do not get anywhere near that. Like, I'm complaining when it's like 13 degrees, which what would that be for you? Hang on, let me put that in proper. What you can 13 Celsius is like 55. Right. So really, so that's cool. That's our code. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's so nice. You probably be appreciating that right now. That's a beautiful day here. So Is it snowing there? Do you get saved? No, it's not snowing. So, um, I mean, today I think they said it was gonna be a high of 45 which is not too bad. I can still walk the dogs and be okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, so that hang on. I've got to look that up. That's seven. Okay, so that's, that's okay. So seven. Yeah, yeah. So your style of art is to realism and symbolism. Am I right in saying that? Can you explain for people like me who aren't into like, understand, what does that mean? So surrealism is you are creating work that looks realistic, but it's often an unrealistic setting. So sometimes the juxtaposition of things that don't really make sense together. Surrealism is often described as dreamlike. It looks like maybe it's came from my imagination, which it did. But in most instances of my work, I'm using my own experiences. And I'm kind of putting it together together in a way that makes sense to tell a story. So it's not an exact memory. It's not like a snapshot of a moment in time. It's more of, you know, how I was feeling in the moment and exploring how I can express those feelings visually, and put symbols in there that have sort of a deeper meaning. And my work, really, it is autobiographical, but I, I want people to be able to look at it and relate to these emotions. Yeah, lately. Yeah. So that's something that started out as something that that triggered from your life, but the themes are sort of common that anybody could relate to that from their own experience in life, I suppose. Yes. Yes. So I address a lot of anxiety, depression, mental health issues. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's very common theme, isn't it? For people? Yeah. Yeah. That's very hot right now. Yeah, for sure. So the symbolism I'm interested in because one of my guests I had earlier on was an art historian. And she was talking about how she looks here. Her specialty was the long 18th century. And she was talking about how she looks at the art and, you know, tries to decipher I suppose, what was going on, and all that sort of thing. So I guess that's the symbolism sort of ties in people could look at that. And I guess it's subjective to like, people could take it. However, they needed to, I guess, couldn't they? It's not necessarily everybody. Yeah. And that's why I like talking about my art. But a lot of times, I like people to tell me about what they see in my art and how it makes them feel and how it relates to their story. Because I think that's the most interesting part. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. So what sort of mediums do you use in your art, so I'm mostly an acrylic painter right now. I have used oils in the past but I am working out of a very small office space in my home. So acrylic is just the easier medium to use. And I try to I try to sometimes put things materials in there that wouldn't be expected. For example, I will stitch with embroidery floss directly on the canvas. So you may not see it as well in pictures but if you were to see the work in person, you can see that you know, this eye is stitched on with thread or these flowers are are sewn onto the canvas. The piece behind me as a piece has some lace on it. I also do use textural elements such as cracks. I use this paste called crackle paste and it kind of you put it on and as it dries, it creates these kinds of cracks and it reminds me of, you know, dried Earth maybe like a desert. So yeah, yeah, but And now we'll use a little bit of wash for details which Um, I recently discovered is very, very fun to work with. So yeah, what is that code? Wash? It's, um, so it's I recently discovered it, it's an acrylic medium, but it's, it works almost like an oil or a watercolor, it's very easy to blend. They're little tiny tubes. So it is quite expensive. You're not gonna like paint a whole painting. But a lot of people use it for works on paper and for realistic things. So I'll use it often on the face, or on the small details of a painting. Yeah, and it's just kind of a slightly different. It doesn't dry as fast as acrylic. So you are able to blend it. So it's kind of like almost like, like how oil you can it doesn't dry very fast. So you can keep blending it to make it look more realistic. Yeah, yeah. So that things like delays, I guess is sort of, sort of reflective of like emotions. And I don't know, it's like you're creating all these different elements. Yes. Make sense? No, yeah, totally. And I just, I do I mean, each kid has has a lot of layers, because I feel like each, like each person, especially when I'm addressing women and mothers, it's like, we all have these, like, layers that we keep putting on ourselves to cover our real selves and to hide who we really are. Maybe not to hide it, but you know, it just we get lost in there. You know, you're somewhere underneath all those layers. Yeah, yeah. That's quite, quite good way of putting it. Is that that identity? Is that Yeah, it's a massive thing, isn't it? This the concept that you're, you're a woman. And then all of a sudden you have a child and your entire life has changed the way you think about yourself changes the way society views you is changes. And it's also almost you can sort of get lost in that, I think, is that is that? Absolutely. Yes. And I actually had my first child when I was 20. And I was still in college, university. And so my daughter right now is 15. In high school, and so I felt like really, I didn't even know who I was. I mean, we all struggle with Who am I but but you know, at 20 You have no idea. Yeah. So I really didn't and, and so that did become so much of who I was. And my entire life. So I never really lived as an independent adult. Without being a mother. So I was a mother like, bam, and then yeah, I'm a grew up. Yes, that's right. No, I mean, I wouldn't change it for a thing. I mean, that was the you know, biggest growing experience of my entire life. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How did you first getting to your, your painting and your artwork? Um, so I actually I always was the artist at school, I always was doing little caricatures and drawings of teachers and, and people in my class and and I kind of hated it. Actually, I didn't like being the artist I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be the athlete, or I wanted to be the singer. I didn't want to be the artist. I thought that was boring. So I kind of tried to like, downplay it and push it back. But when I got to high school, I had some really great art teachers. And I you know, all my lectures were art classes, gone to college actually got rejected for being an art major, because my portfolio is so disorder is not you know, me college was not, I wasn't if I completely understand why I was rejected. It was like, completely thrown together. I was probably like, late on it too. But I decided to become an art minor because I didn't need to be accepted into any program to do that. I just You declared art I was a history major and in our minor, yes. So I did work for those courses. And, you know, I loved it, but I wasn't going to, you know, become a full time artists because that just wasn't a realistic option ever. And then I got offered a job as an art teacher, by an old teacher of mine who I just happened to run into, and she's like, Oh, you're an artist, you want to teach art. And I was, yeah. That was my first job. I had a daughter's at that point. She was one. So I, you know, I had to take the job. I taught art, which was great. And I would do a little bit of drawing, you know, for lesson planning and my free time, but I really didn't have time to devote to my art as much. But you know, in the beginning, I was really painting just things that I thought people would like, everyone's well, some come to me with the condition and, oh, can you paint my house, like, a painting of my house? Or can you pay a portrait of my dog or things like that. So I wasn't really painting for myself, I was, I was just, you know, make a little extra money here and there. It really wasn't until the birth of my third my son Wallace that I started painting during his naptime. Because in the States, we don't have any type of maternity leave. So I, it was either I had my third child, it was either like go back to work, and pay an astronomical amount of childcare, or just stay at home with my kid. And, you know, so I stayed at home, and then, you know, he had a study naptime. And that was my, my time to paint. And that's when I really started to, you know, paint for myself and just paint for the pleasure of painting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Was there a trigger at that point to, to encourage you to go back to painting or was just something, you sort of just thought, Oh, I just want to do this. Yeah, it was, it was, well, actually, there was an event we our basement flooded. And so we had a spare bedroom in the basement. And I had been kind of painting out of it. But you know, like I said, before, not really, painting work for myself, it was more of, you know, these little side jobs. And when the basement flooded, we had to completely refinished the basement, change the flooring, you know, like, pull everything up. And I told my husband, I was like, you know, I really think instead of a spare bedroom down there, let's just put some cheap tile down. And I'll make it my art studio. And so that was really what really pushed me to start creating and then I had this big space to create and, and experiment and just make a mess. And that was like, such an exciting time. For me. Oh, that sounds awesome. I'm really taken by the colors that you use in your AU. I mean, I get the vibes that you're a spiritual person. He's from like chakras or like, is it? Like head? Is there a connection there? Or is it just totally intuitive or so, um, it's interesting, I grew up Catholic and, like going to Catholic school for 13 years of my life and very strict upbringing. But as I you know, especially as became a mother and became more comfortable in myself and who I was, I have explored, you know, spirituality in a wider sense. I'm not restricted to any sort of traditional faith. And I do have my Reiki level one training so I do and really use the chakra colors. And I do you know, only I practice taro which you know, as a child was told that I was summoning the devil sort of thing. You know, as a as an adult woman. It's like I know what works for me spiritually. And I know how to explore my own intuition. And I'm not really like I'm not afraid of being judged anymore for those sorts of things. Yeah, but I do, I try to use the softer, more feminine girlish pinks. And because it reminds me of my childhood, and a lot of my work is trying to go back and find that inner child and find what she enjoyed and what brought her joy and made her happy and gave her life. Yeah, so so much of my work is going back in time. And it is sometimes dark or subject matter. So I use the the kind of bright colors to almost reframe it and make it a little more digestible. Because, you know, if the subjects I was painting, were painted in, you know, dark, gloomy colors, that's just for me, that's not life, life is a balance of light and dark. Yeah, so, you know, the bad things happen. But something, something is coming out of that some, some kind of treasure is coming out of a bad event, it's always going to even out. So I do try to make my you know, even if my subject matter is death, or, you know, fear or abandonment, or trauma, I do try to keep these kinds of inviting colors into the piece because I do want people to bring it in and kind of reframe their mindset about certain things. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, it's almost like you're saying, okay, so this is, this is gonna be tough. This is hard. But you know, what, you can look at it through different eyes, you don't have to see it as a, you know, a really big scary, massive negative thing. Right? Right. It's almost like it's almost like a form of therapy, you know? Yes. Yeah, absolutely is in creating, the series that I'm most known for is the unmasking the self. And it wasn't, it had nothing to do with COVID I started this. I did this series in 2019. But I do have the masks, because I feel like as young girls, from an early age, we're very much conditioned to wear masks to hide our emotions. And so my whole life, I've struggled with depression and anxiety and just, you know, put on the mask, smile, perform, be a good girl, you know, do all the things for everybody. And, you know, and so that's a lot of pressure. And I think that especially little girls are under enormous pressure, whereas boys are kind of given a pass and boys will be boys and, and but girls are there's a much higher standard that they're held to. There's an account that growing up and I feel it, I felt it for my daughter. And and I have to I have two boys that, you know. I mean, things are changing, obviously. But the series was really born out of that hole. Who am I? What is my identity? And did I ever really even have one even as a child, you know, like, it's something you really you are hidden under layers of masks and different personas and different identities that people depend on you. And as a mother, it just becomes heavy and you're aware. Yeah. Oh, that's so true. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. I love that. Yeah, I had a look on your website at the, at those pictures of your work. And it's just it's so profound, like when you start thinking about that stuff. Like it's how we start off the day starting with anything. Yeah, man, like, so you're right, having that. That attractive, sort of outside layer. It allows you to venture in without fear. I think you can sort of start to creep into it. And yeah, yes, it's very inviting. So you have three children. So your oldest 15. So I have a son who is nine. Yep. And then I have a son who is five. And my five year old is on the autism spectrum. So that was another big moment in our lives too. kind of reevaluate what it meant to raise a child. And because we had a two before who were semi nurse. But my middle one is, you know, we're still we're still getting evaluated. But the youngest CEO, he wasn't speaking. And he just, you know, would, he was quirkier, and you know, would have the meltdowns and so but when the diagnosis came back, it was very shocking to me, I was not expecting it. But, I mean, he is the most amazing human being in the world. And he is, he did a program for two years for children on the spectrum, intense therapy. And now he is in a neurotypical classroom with a teacher's aide, and he's doing fantastic. But yeah, that was a, you know, that was another dark period that I've illustrated in my work. And just the whole stigma around autism, and you know, something as something that needs to be cured. It's not something that needs to be cured. It's just a completely different, it's a different way that your brain works. And all of our brains work differently. And so I'm kind of, I do I am very passionate about, you know, autism advocacy, and just reframing it like, this isn't some tragedy, this is actually an amazing gift for my son. I mean, he's just the most amazing little human being sees the world in such a way that you I mean, that brings joy to him and brings joy to the people around him. And we all love Wallace. And he is so incredible. It's this, like, amazing little light being rainbow soul who just has these amazing ways of thinking and speaking and seeing the world and yeah, so it's really been such a great gift to us as a family. Yeah, absolutely. can sort of allows you to, to change your perspective on things or look at things in a different way. And, yeah, yeah. That's all always a you know, one of my fears. Because it's like it, like You're conditioned to think that it is, you know, so terrible. And in for some people, it is a big struggle. And I'm very lucky that we had him in early intervention therapy, and he has just grown so much. Yeah. And yeah, it's amazing. And his siblings are amazing. With him. Yeah. So it's really great. Yeah, that's awesome. Any of you children artistic as well? Do? You know, while this would be the most artistic it's, and my son Leo, my middle. He loves football. Loves in it. American football. Yep. So he loves to draw football fields from every NFL team. But that's kind of the center of it. He's not going to draw any other picture. He's not going to draw a family portrait. It's literally just binders full of different football fields. And then he'll have little numbers and scores are involved. Yeah, but then Wallace Wallace really does like to come into the studio with me and he likes the sensory aspect of he likes touching the knee, you know, the wetness the feelings. And then my daughter who's 15 is a brilliant musician. Yeah. So she's not really interested in you know, visual arts but she's pretty I mean, she's pretty amazing guitar piano she can pick anything up and yeah, good. That's awesome. So you recently created an Instagram page for artists in the Kensington area. So you're very passionate about sharing community? Yeah, tell us tell us how you came up decide to do that. You know, I I really just believe that we, we grow and we share and and it's good for all of us to kind of like rise by lifting each other up and I I feel like having a daughter in high school, you kind of are forced to go back into that dark period where girls are cutting each other down constantly. And I do live in this amazing community of Kensington, it's a very, it's a small town, outside of DC. And, you know, we can walk to all these small businesses, little boutiques, little antique stores, thrift stores, we've got a couple of food places, it's like, my kids can literally walk, if they want to, you know, pick up a sandwich for lunch or get a soda. And that's something that in the DC area isn't that common, you know, it's a lot of commuting, a lot of driving. And in our area, we have this nice little perfect place where we can walk everywhere, and the neighbors are so friendly, and everyone knows each other. And I know so many artists just in my community. And I realized that we were all working very independently, you know, everyone's we all give each other a shout out or whatever. But I really just wanted to, like bring us all together and be like, Guys, this is really special, you know, that we have so many artists in our little community. And I want to eventually create, curate some shows, do some public, you know, shows or maybe even open a gallery, two years down the road, but just kind of tapping into this creative economy that's in our community that's so valuable, but it's just not seen very much. And a lot of these women are mothers working out of their homes. So we don't have much studio space in the community. And I just kind of wanted to bring awareness to that. Because people you know, around the holidays, especially everybody's looking for this special gift, and everyone wants to buy from artists in our community. So I thought by putting this together and kind of having it be a landing page for everyone, and just promote everyone, all of them and, and just bring us together and have this kind of be like a united force in the community. So I love that. And I think also too, it shows, there's no, there's no ego of like, you're not competing with anyone, you know, it's like you're welcoming everybody. It's not saying, Oh, yours is better Rios there. It's like, it's just a supportive group, you know? Exactly. And I feel like that's what I really needed. Because I was finding that in, in the city in Washington, DC, I was finding communities of women that I would, you know, be a part of, and I would support and they would support me, but right in my backyard, you know, I can walk to, you know, five artists houses right now, you know, and I'm like, let's do it here. Let's do it here. I don't have to drive into the city to get my community of artists. I can build one right here. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so special. It's something that you know, you can you can help grow and foster that. And yes, yeah, I love that. Turning back to what we're talking about earlier about, you said something. Well, the way I'm remembering it might not be the exact words but it was to do with not worrying what people thought. And I want to just read out a quote that you wrote on your Instagram page. You said, after years of hating myself, I am proud of myself, I painted this huge effing painting behind me and I love it. I don't care if you like it, or anyone else likes it. I love it. My work is powerful and meaningful. And that's a really profound statement. That's like, it is so like, you just, it's just your truth. Yeah, it took me a long time to get there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you know what I feel like once once the layers come off, and the ego comes off, and yeah, that sounds a little ego. You know, no, I'm with you. Yeah. But I you know, once you start worrying about people judging you and what others think of you when you more worry about like, No, I'm going to be true to myself and my authentic self and express that to people, you give other people permission to do this. Same. And if we are all, you know, trying to raise the vibration of humanity and, and work towards becoming our authentic selves and discovering our truth and our gifts and our talents, then everybody wins. So, you know, all the people walking around trying to people pleasing, be everything for everybody. And this kind of whole narrative of motherhood is the murderer, and sacrificing. And the first thing that sacrifice is like, your sense of self, right? It's just like you are not, you're just a vessel, and you're just a feeding machine and a maid and a cook. And, and all these things rolled into one that, like, you're so much more than that, like, they're everybody has their unique talents and gifts. And, you know, I did hide mine for so long, like, as a younger child, and even as an adult, not really finding out like what, oh, make a few bucks here, but what's the value of it, but I think that through Instagram, as annoyed as I get with him, it is a great, powerful tool to connect people and to, I mean, to inspire people, I'm so inspired by so many artists. And when I created an interview, I had no idea there were so many inspirational artists, so many artists that I could fall in love with their work, and just so moved by their work. And it just, it's amazing. And if we all just kind of get to a point where we can say, this is me. And this is my work. And if you don't like it, whatever. No, I didn't make it for you. I made it for me. Yeah, yeah. So I absolutely love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that and put it in my quotes, because that honestly, I feel like I had a similar sort of Revelation. At some point. I'm not sure exactly when, but in. In my childhood, I did a lot of singing competitions, it was sort of something that we had to do. And there was this massive emphasis placed on getting a prize getting a place winning. So there was this. Yeah, this huge connection between for me between singing and being good or being better than someone or someone telling you, you were good. You know, this adjudicator this one person saying, I liked you better than that person, you know, this validation came from other people. And as I've gotten older, it's like, it's the same thing. What literally what you just said, I don't care if you don't like it, because I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for me. And I think, because like, any form of art is so subjective. You know, there's plenty of art that I might not necessarily like or love, but I can appreciate that the person that's done it is done an amazing job in creating that, and they've poured a piece of themselves into this, you know, whether it's music or dancing, or, you know, visual art, you know, so I think, yeah, I've come a long way, in, in many years of just accepting and, and I still put myself up for different competitions, but in different ways, like online or writing competitions. And if I don't win, it's like, that's fine. Because it wasn't my time, you know, I can see that everyone's on their own journey. And even just as recently as last last Thursday night, I was in Adelaide for a competition and, and I didn't win it, and I had no pangs of wish it was me, I mean, would have been nice to win. But I can see that that person, that one that was there on their journey, it's this is their time, you know, and it's other incredibly freeing and empowering to be able to take away that you just feel you feel unencumbered, you just feel light and, you know, yes. Once we remove the need to be validated by others, that is such a like, that is such a turning point. And obviously, of course, I still do get caught up in that a lot. It's not I'm on a journey and evolving and not yet. But I'm definitely like at the beginning when I first created my Instagram, it was like, I really was putting work online because I wanted people to like it. Obviously I wanted people to follow me I wanted people to buy my art and and that's the kind of work I was putting out and then a curator actually asked me who is Sarah Renzi Sanders, the artist. And I was like, I don't know. I it was a really hard question. It really caused me to like, like Who do I want to be? I can be any what I want. But I definitely don't want to be this person just creating, like boring abstracts that people like, so that they will sell. I want to be more than that, you know, so I want, I want my work to touch people, I want my work to inspire people, I want my work to move people, I don't just want to create something pretty to match someone's couch, you know? Yes. And I feel like I know a lot of artists who still aren't doing that and have been doing it for years. And that's their business model, and it works for them. But for me, I think I want to create more of a legacy than, you know, a financial IQ. I mean, obviously, I like I like money. There's nothing wrong with money, but I know what you mean. Yeah, it's not my first it's not my number one, you know, it's not my number one priority. So, yeah, I understand the journey, just the journey, every rejection is a stepping stone to getting where you want to be. So, you know, everybody's been rejected numerous, there's no one successful that hasn't been rejected 1000 times. So yeah, it's interesting, use that analogy. I interviewed a lady in Australia, just a couple of days ago. And she used the same sort of that imagery of she had to sort of she was saying that she was meeting getting to these like roadblocks then she'd have to change direction and, and someone said to her, why don't you look at that, instead of a block, you change direction, and you're going across like a lily pad and you have to go across you had to go to this one. It wasn't a straight line. And she said once she changed that in her mind, that way of looking at it just totally changed. And that's the same thing like the stepping stones. It's not you know, rarely is anything in life in a straight line. You know, we take that turns and and end up with Yeah, totally, totally. Growth is not linear. It's like a big ball of wool or something. It's just like. Topic that that I talk about a lot on my podcast is mommy guilt. And I believe it's something that probably is a resonates across all boundaries, like nationalities, countries, that kind of thing. Is that something is mum guilt, sort of a term that you've heard much of or you've got some opinions on? You know, I have heard it. And I do know women, estate's mostly women that are working full time, that have that mom guilt, I am lucky enough to, you know, be home and working while my kids are in school, and then I pick them up, and then I'm home with them for six more hours. And chauffeuring them to various activities. So um, I don't really have it, because I also feel like, it's, it's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me singing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly. That you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. So yeah, that's kind of how I feel about it. I could not have put that better myself. That is brilliant. Absolutely love that. Like, the more I talk to moms, the more that I think that society is the one driving this Mum, do you like the judgment? The judgment that you get from, you know, other mums and social media this perception of what a mum has to be done Um, yeah, and people are going hang on a minute, I don't buy into that, like, like you said, what I'm doing, I'm not neglecting my children, I'm, you know, I'm doing something for myself, that's going to make me, you know, feel better about my mothering role when I come back to them, you know, in a few I'm going to feel fulfilled, so that I can give myself more fully to my children. Exactly, exactly. And you're right about the social media pressure. And there's this whole culture, which I'm sure you know, about the mom influencers, and you know, and they're perfect little children, and they're perfect matching outfits, and, you know, and it's, to me, just so I feel like these women are, are sacrificing so much of themselves for this identity of perfection in motherhood. And I just don't understand how you could be authentically happy when your life is, you know, taking pictures of your children, making sure they look perfect. And you know, I'm not gonna send out Christmas cards this year. Sorry, I just know, I don't have any pictures of my kids like, altogether smiling. So you know, and I think that's okay. And I give myself permission to say, Yeah, you know, I do Christmas cards every other year. Yeah, yeah. And I just don't, I don't have the time to battle with my children until like, bribe them with candy and, and get maybe a mediocre picture of them sitting on the porch. And them all hate me for the rest of the day, because they had to sit in the cold and get a picture. You know, and like, I'm not the mom taking my kids to the pumpkin patch. And, you know, putting them on top of Tompkins. And you know what, I'm just not that person. Yes. And a lot of people, it's just like, they automatically think, well, if I don't do this, I'm not if I don't take my kid to the pumpkin, but it's just in the states. The Pumpkin Patch is a big fall activity. Yeah. Which I don't really buy into, because I'm like, I don't understand it. But it's a good photo op, I think for the moms. Yeah. And yeah, no, I we just don't do that. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of a lot of it's like, people were coming back to that judgment thing. Like, people have to show that they're doing something or people who literally, if it didn't, if it's not on social media, it didn't happen. You know, everything's got to be on social media and, and it's almost like, Who are you trying to justify? Are you trying to make yourself feel better? Like, what are you why are you doing this? Like, yeah, justify your role as a mother that I Oh, I spend lots of time with my kids. I'm trying to make myself feel better about it. Or, you know, is it for other people to say, Oh, wow, they're doing lots of stuff, you know, like, my exhausting, you know, to me, like you're talking about these masks, like, it's a facade that they're putting up, they're creating this pretend life. Right? And that's, I mean, with my daughter, you know, now she's on social media, of course. And it's, it's just, I want to show her that no, this isn't like, this isn't real. These girls that you see with their filters on and perfectly dressed and posing places like, that's, that took that to take that picture, took a lot of work. And it's not like this perfectly, like little snapshot of my life, this is very much set up. This is a this is very curated. This, you know, this person in real life, they don't look like that. And I do like a lot of people that do it, it, it's almost like, I think with the motherhood thing, there's that loss of identity. And they maybe feel like by creating this diary of images that are perfect. It is like more concretely like, Oh, this is my identity. This is who I am, this is who I want to be. And this is where I want to show the world. But it doesn't come from a deep place. And that's where it becomes problematic. Yeah, that's it's not authentic. It's not. They're not living the truth, I suppose. Right. Right. Yeah, I think authentically, like you become your authentic self, and you express that and then the right people are attracted to you. I tell my daughter all the time, because you know, at 15 You're going through so many friend troubles and morphing of groups and, you know, drama, teenage drama, and I'm like, if you just be yourself, be true to yourself and the right people come to you and I didn't learn that until I was probably like, 33, you know, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a long journey to get there for sure. But when it happens, it happens. And yeah, I mean, I've so I went through a period of my life where I probably had no close friends for about 10 years. And then most recently, it's just like, I have all these people I really enjoy talking to. And we really connect. And it's, it's because I've done the internal work, it's because I'm expressing myself and who I am. And, you know, the people that are at that point in their life at that vibration are attracted to authentic people. So yeah, yeah. I've recently talking to other artists, mothers, it's hard to apply to things sometimes and not feel like there is an aspect of, you know, well, we mainly don't want a mother to be the artists resident, or we maybe don't want a mother to be the face of it just because she's always busy. Or she always has other things going on. Or her life so chaotic already, you know, like, there are these, like, certain excuses, I feel like that people make for not working with artists, mothers. And it wasn't until I talked to my friend the other day that I really realized that and she said something like, about posting her kids on her social media, like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, like, doesn't man ever have to think about, you know, posting a picture of his child affecting his career? No, he doesn't. In fact, it probably it does boost his, you know, his like ability to get jobs because people are like, Oh, he's a dad, he has a family to provide for but for women, it's a totally different. It's like, oh, well, you know, she has all this work to do at home. And she has all these responsibilities. But I'm like, I mean, me anymore. We are the hardest working people on the planet. Saying I have the time to do this. I have the time to do it. I want to do it. Yeah, absolutely. Now when you talked about before the taro Have you ever done or thought about having, like creating a deck with your honor? Yes. That is probably what's coming next for me. Yeah, so the whole thing was, I had this really creepy story happen. And it's, it was a few years ago, and I was visiting my grandmother's grave, and my grandmother is very, very close to my house. So I do visit her quite often. And I went to her grave, and there was a little like walking path above above her grade. And on the walking path, there was this velvet blue bag, like a little pouch. And I was like, what is that and I kind of opened it and peeked inside and it was a deck of tarot cards. And I was, you know, I love that kind of stuff. But, um, but I was also a little bit like, am I supposed to take this or do I? So I texted my whole family like what do I do? They're like, don't take it, don't take it like that is not when you don't want that, you know? And so I was like okay, but I think it means something. So I I did take a picture of the first card on top and then I looked up the deck and I actually found it online and I ordered it and it is influenced so much of my work and it has been so spot on. But yeah, I think it's kind of like a psychological tool where Anybody can do it. And anybody can interpret what it means for them at that point in their lives. So it's not really this whole, you know, like I was taught in grade school, you know, summoning the devil or like, this tool of Satan, it's, it's, it's literally a card of beautiful pictures and you shuffle it and you choose some and then you decide how that relates to your life and if that's gonna give you guidance, or tell you what next step to take, or maybe just how to have how to change your mindset about something. So, so I do think that that is coming for me and I have sketched out a few things, but, you know, that's like a long term project. But, ya know, I definitely think my grandmother said that to me and was like, Hey, you should do this. Yeah, cuz you know what, when I started looking through your work, I was just instantly had this like, Oh, these need to be on tarot cards, because this is you know, that. Yeah. Like, there's I mean, there's definitely a big influence on my work. Yeah. Sorry, go. Now go. Oh, no, I was gonna say even before I was creating this body of work, I was creating like a more abstract, like, I don't know, if you're familiar with like, paint boring. It's very trendy right now. It's old, like, yeah, liquid paint boring. So I was doing a series of those. And I was naming them as for cards, you know, like two of cups are to me up because of the cards from my grandmother. And it was like, Oh, well, I did this one the day I found it. And that was the that was the card that was on top. So yeah, so I was even before I was creating the stuff that actually looks like Taro. Yeah, definitely going to do that. That is Yeah, no, I'm bored. And I will get some because that is beautiful connection as much. A lot of my work kind of addresses that tension between you growing up in a super Catholic environment and Hoekman and what? You know, those feelings of like, I'm doing something bad. Yeah, no, yeah. Like, we need thinking for myself and exploring my own spirituality is bad. I need to just do what the grownups you know, and my sister and I would be like, you know, locked in our we would have we had a little walk in closet that we shared no room and we would read each other's cards, and we had our crystal ball and, and I definitely grown up to be that person. Like, I have a crystal ball. And we make cards every day. And I meditate every day. Yeah, yeah. But it was something that you had to hide away because it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yes. Totally. I wanted to ask you about your other project that you do you mix media Madonna, is that? Is there sort of a Yeah, to do with that traditional. You know, practice religion. It's so interesting, because i People often ask me, oh, are you like very Catholic and I was raised Catholic, and I am a part of I do believe that's part of my culture, and my cultural upbringing. You know, my grandparents came from Italy. And, you know, I grew up with, you know, the Madonna in these pictures in their houses in their homes and bring the rosary a lot. But I moved my mixed media data, I do try to kind of bring my own twist on Mary and make it more about worshiping the idea of the mother. You know, this is like, the mother is so often forgotten, and I really want to highlight the mother and I used to teach a big lesson on the the evolution of the way Mary was painted in art history. And she went from being you know, this kind of stoic, you know, very embellished icon. Due to being, you know, kind of like Raphael portraying her like a woman of the day, like during the Renaissance, like she was portrayed, she wasn't portrayed like, Mary traditionally in, you know, in her time she was portrayed, like, this is a mother or a normal woman that I'm painting, and I'm painting her in the clothes of the day with a very thin Halo, and she's becoming human. And relatable. Yeah. And so, I do, I just am fascinated by all the different cultures in all the different ways of, like, visualizing marry, and kind of making it my own and, and making it you know, more, more than the religion, I think it's like, the the Motherhood is the most simple and the spirituality of just connecting to the mother of all, you know, yeah, and I use, you know, prayer books and people send me like, literally antique postcards and things like that. And I'll find books in all bookstores. And it really is just like magic to kind of find all these pieces and put them together in a more beautiful way, because I feel like she was always always just seen as like, oh, it's Jesus's mom. It's Jesus's mom. And even in Catholicism, you know, we do elevate Mary a lot more than other religions, but I've wanted to be something more than that. And just something that every woman can kind of look at and be like, oh, yeah, like, I like I like this. You've had people that are like, I, you know, I'm Jewish. I'm not religious at all. But I really like this piece speaks to me. And that's kind of what I want it to be more of, like a, like, this isn't just for Catholic people. This is for everybody. Yeah. And that's, I mean, it's a hard balance. Because, you know, some people are like, whoa, like, I'm not religious. I'm, you know, but I think it's a little more than that. Yeah, absolutely. It's like that universal sort of message of Allah. It is. That's what it is. That's actually what it is. It's yeah. And that's how it came out. I mean, yeah, it was, like, totally born of love. And just, in me being a mother and just, this is another mother that I'm going to celebrate. And and you know, it is mostly mothers that buy a lot of people buy them for gifts for their mothers or for you know, yeah, but and they're all different. And I tried to make each one very, I mean, at this point, I've probably made around 50 of them, I would think that you know, are just out there in different places. But I just keep making them and even if I have the same image like I have a lot of Raphael because Raphael did a lot of Madonna's but if I have the same image I still want to make it like different different colors different flowers, different elements. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I'm just imagining them would look nice up here and we're making a whole dashes them right now. I was trying to get it done for you know, Black Friday which is this American holiday that everyone shops on but not finished yet. You could make make your own shopping I just want to have some for the holidays for people to buy, you know because because I don't sell my large pieces. So you know, the way I make a little bit of money is Prince would Madonna's release Have you got anything on the go at the moment any projects or series that you're working on? That you want to share? Tell us about her. Um, so I have started working on these large abstract pieces and they they're kind of could be described as more graphic abstract, sharper lines. And like, you know, boom, bright colors. I do a lot of third eye stuff, which I've done my entire career but it's way mo here. This one is in progress. So but you know, it's more of like Like, inspired by nature, but yeah, like more of a very symmetrical Yeah, structured vision. And I do get these when I meditate every day. And I do, sometimes, especially around the full moon, get these kind of like, very clear images in my head, that when I come out of meditation, I'll sketch them really quick. And then I just there they come, they come pretty quick, and it's easy to pick the colors. And I use kind of my standard color palette that I use for my other series just, I just decided I'm just going to always take with my favorite colors, and it makes it a lot easier because then everything looks kind of cohesive, even though you know, this, the style is so different. But you know, I've been I, I've submitted a few to some open calls, and I been rejected for those. So, you know, I mean, I've been rejected for every everything I've ever painted at some point, but so, you know, we're still working through that kind of my artists statement for those pieces and not try. You know, I tried to sound authentic, but at the same time, sometimes people are like, Sarah, like, bring it down a little bit. Like, with all the woowoo like, yeah, manifestation stuff, and I'm like, okay, to put that was actually meant to say that, like, you know, why should you have to tone yourself down? Like, maybe they're not the right people to talk to you absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. I just think that my own art practice has made me a better mother, even if that means less time with my children, I think that we all need to figure out that balance and, and what we need to keep us sane, because it's very easy to just spiral into this kind of loss of self and just becoming shells of people as mothers. And I feel like having something of your own as a mom, and not just a career, but something of your own. More than a hobby, a passion, you know, is so important. And I just think every, every mother needs that outlet for themselves. And to remember that, like, I am a separate entity, I'm human in myself, I am not just, you know, because we often feel like we're just like, walking around with children attached to us. And, and with all of the, our, I've painted the woman, you know, with all the arms before balancing all the things and yeah, and and we're so much more than that. And I think once motherhood starts being more valued, because it shouldn't be valued. I mean, we are raising the future of society. So there should be more emphasis placed on the value of mothers. And I think I think we're getting there, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like each each generation is sort of pushing those boundaries and pushing the, the expectations of I'm going to say the patriarchal expectations, because that's basically what it is. Yeah, so each generation moving forward, you know, breaking ground and, hopefully, yeah, no, I think it is, I really, really truly believe that. That each of us, you need all the other moms that are out there elevating other women and, and motherhood. We're making a difference. And, and I mean, we're making a difference to our daughters. They're seeing us do this, and they're gonna do even greater things. So yeah, I truly believe that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that's a that's a beautiful sentiment to end on. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your giving me all right. Thanks so much, Alison, is great talking to ya EJ. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat. We With an artistic mom

Rachel Charge Australian ceramic artist, writer and multidisciplinary creative 10 Article # 8 September 2023 My name is Rachel Charge, I am a mother, ceramic artist, writer and multidisciplinary creative. With my hands and a small selection of tools, I transform textural clay into considered ceramic forms for elevated daily use. Beyond the practice of ceramics, I am an independent writer and storyteller weaving intentional words for mindful publications and conscious small businesses. I have always been creative and dreamed of being an artist in some form – I loved to write stories and draw in my early years and then my focus turned to poetry, photography and studio arts in high school where I sold my first artwork at 17 years old. My path has never been linear and it took time to figure out what I wanted to do and build the courage to put myself out there. I have a Bachelor of Business degree majoring in Public Relations and I suppose the common thread throughout the corporate roles of my twenties has always been writing. I fell in love with clay after taking a sabbatical in 2018 where I allowed myself to fully embrace my creativity. We had been trying to conceive for a few years by that time and clay became a beautiful outlet for me. I am predominantly self-taught in my practice and use hand building techniques to create my work. It all fell into place quite naturally, and I began selling my work and gaining stockists that same year. My husband, James, is my biggest supporter and we fell pregnant via IVF with our daughter, Peach, in 2019. The journey to becoming a mother in all its phases and fullness has informed my practice over time. Matrescence for me feels like the process of learning and unlearning. A shift like the seasons and huge period of growth. Throughout it all my artistic process feels both independent from and gently interwoven with myself as a mother. She is muse to me, and I am muse to myself. Motherhood has expanded my being. "Family is incredibly important to me. I love being home with Peach and integrating my passion for my art and life’s work around motherhood." During this season of my life, I am a mum first. Most of my week is spent with Peach while she is still little, and I have one full day per week where she goes to my parents’ house with her cousins. I make up most of my studio time on this day but also weave in some writing time where I can. Otherwise, I make the most of moonlight hours, weekends and slow afternoons. I have become more of a night owl since becoming a mother; surrendering to found moments and shorter intervals of time. I am more efficient now in the way that I work. Time is more valuable. As Peach grows (she will be four in November), a sense of consistency has returned to my practice and a rhythmic flow seems easier to find. I try to weave a little bit of magic and creativity into every day which nourishes both of us. Some of my best ideas have arrived during day-to-day activities with her. I am surrounded by many beautiful humans who are parents, small business owners, entrepreneurs, artists and creatives who inspire me in life and in parenthood. No matter what we do, we are all just trying our best to live how we want to live. My support network is everything! James, my parents, my three sisters and my friends who feel like home are my biggest supporters as an artist, a mother and a human. They always have my back. Having people around us who love our family and want to see us thrive is the most beautiful gift. I’ll forever be grateful for them. I have felt guilt in the moments of overwhelm, where I feel like I am juggling everything and nothing because the cycle of mundanity can feel endless. I live too deeply in my own head sometimes and it can be difficult to go easy on myself – to embrace the chaos. Being faced with my own humanity and fears can feel triggering. Since having Peach, I have always put the needs of me and my family first and move at a pace that we are comfortable with. I have experienced more guilt over disappointing others than I have experienced ‘mum guilt’ but finding my voice in the realm of my own motherhood experience has been invaluable. The process of matrescence has brought me back to my core values and the necessity for me to prioritise my work as an artist alongside motherhood. I want Peach to see the beauty and potential of life and give her the tools to grow into whoever she wants to be. "I do believe that there are still deeply rooted societal pressures on mothers and families regardless of the household dynamic. The value of motherhood is underrated. " My artistic practices will forever feed my soul, but this does not transcend the desire to create something of value. I want my work to make people feel. I want it to be worth something. I know it is worth something and this empowers me as an artist. I am one of four daughters/sisters, and our mother played a big role in being home with us and being involved at school. My dad took over my grandfather’s business and made it his own, so I suppose I am the product of both my parents in the way I have chosen to live my life. They are both now semi-retired and love spending time with their grandchildren. We are a very close family and spend a lot of time together. Family is incredibly important to me. I love being home with Peach and integrating my passion for my art and life’s work around motherhood. James is an amazing dad who has worked incredibly hard to be able to be at home with her as much as possible too. She gets to witness both of her parents working and being present to guide her. I do believe that there are still deeply rooted societal pressures on mothers and families regardless of the household dynamic. The value of motherhood is underrated. The value of artistry is underrated. The value of small business is underrated. Contact Rachel www.rachelcharge.com.au BACK

Jillian Lauren US best selling author + journalist S2 Ep70 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am thrilled to welcome Jillian Lauren to the podcast this week, a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock + roll wife + mother of 2 based in Los Angeles, United States Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey and graduated from Newark Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University. Soon after, she started exotic dancing in New York at the Kit Kat Club + became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the Prince of Brunei for 18 months. When Jillian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with an Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career, with Jillian's work since appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles Magazine. Jillian is a New York Times Best Selling author of 2 memoirs Some Girls: My Life in a Harem , about her experience as The Harem Girl, and Everything You Ever Wanted about her journey of adopting her son Tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tariku came to the family as an 18 month old, and brought with him intense trauma responses and during the next few years Jillian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her instincts. Jillian and her husband Scott Shriner (bassist from Weezer) added to their family in 2015 when they adopted through the US foster system their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and has an autism diagnosis. She has also written a fiction novel entitled Pretty and has an upcoming novel based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel Little called Behold the Monster coming out in 2023 . Several of Jillian’s manuscripts are being developed into TV + Film projects the most recent being Confronting a Serial Killer released on STARZ. The five-episode series tells the story of the relationship between Jillian Lauren + the most prolific serial killer in American history Sam Little, and her work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered, before he passes away. **This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss + miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer and does contain a bit of swearing** Visit Jillian's website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age + ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Jillian Lauren. Julian is a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock and roll wife and mother of two based in Los Angeles in the United States. Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey, and graduated from New York Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University and soon after started exotic dancing at the KitKat club and became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the prince of Brunei, where she stayed for 18 months. When Julian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career with Julian's work now appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles magazine. Julian is a New York Times best selling author of two memoirs, some girls my life in a harem about her experience as the harem girl and everything you ever wanted about her journey of adopting her son tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tarik, who came to the family as an 18 month old and brought with him intense trauma responses, and during the next few years, Julian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her own instincts. Jillian and her husband, Scott Shriner, the bass player from Weezer, added to their family in 2015. When they adopted through the US foster system, their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and an autism diagnosis. She's also written a fictional novel entitled prissy, and has an upcoming novel. Based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel little called Behold The Monster coming out in 2023 Several of Julian's manuscripts are being developed into TV and film projects, the most recent being confronting a serial killer released on stars. The five episode series tells the story of the relationship between Julian and the most prolific serial killer in American history, Sam little and Julian's work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered before he passes away. This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss and miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer, and it does contain a bit of swearing. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient new age music trio, LM J, which is comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Julian. It's a real pleasure to meet you. It is so nice to be here. Yeah. And it's funny. I feel like I kind of know I don't know you but I know so much about you through the memoirs that you've written. How did you first sort of get into writing? Well, I have kept a journal since I was eight. So I always wrote always, like I had that, you know, muscle in place. But you know, I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be director I want to be anything but a writer and it really took you know, a journey through some unusual places until I landed where I belong, you know, until I I said to myself, like, what is it that has been consistent in my life for all these years? What do you think? What do you think you were sort of pushing back against the writing that you didn't sort of validate it really hard? Really hard. It's, it's, it's hard to finish. It's hard to start. It's just hard. Like, if you can possibly choose anything else choose anything else? Well, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And, and being a memoirist, it's, you're very, you're being very vulnerable, which I want to commend you for too, because the things that you're sharing, you know, people can relate to, and it opens these opportunities for conversations, which are really important. Did you find was that the first sort of style of writing that you went to? Like, I guess, because if you're journaling in your diary, no, because I couldn't sell my first novel. Yeah. That's the memoir. To tell you the truth. I wanted nothing more than to never write that memoir. Yeah. Why to never write some girls, because I knew I knew was sensational. Like that it would get bought, very likely, you know, because I'm not the only woman who was over there. But, you know, I'm also a real writer. Yes. There are so many book clubs I go to where they're like, do you write your own book? I'm like, I'm the writer. Yeah. I'm not like a celebrity with a ghostwriter. Um, yeah, that's it. But it was really scary. And I knew what I was doing. And I tried very hard to eat much more New York curry. And that's always you know, how I saw myself, you know, at the Algonquin club or something, and I'm like, okay, given the times. And, you know, and they were like, nah, nah. And I had just gotten out of graduate school, and I started librarian school, I started to get my master's in library science, because I was starting to think like, you know, I need a plan B. And my husband was like, you know, when I said, I would support you through graduate school. That wasn't like, forever of graduate school. So, like, can you tell me what the plan is here? And, and I was like, you know, what gave me three months. Give me just give me three months, I have this one card left to play. And I talked to my agent. And you know, she's like, I can't sell this. I'm sorry. I love it. I can't sell it. And I was like, Well, you know, I've been thinking writing a memoir, this really interesting thing happened to me, I was the Mistress of the principle and I when I was a teenager, and she was like, what? Job was on the table, you know, like, how have you not told me this before? And I was like, I didn't want to write about it. That's why and, you know, and she was like, Well, do you genuinely feel like you're ready to write about it now? Like, consider all the consequences? Consider, you know, what it means to become memoirist. Consider you're going to be the heroine girl for the rest of her life. When she did you get to a certain point where you're like, okay, not so bad. Not so bad harem girl but I that was actually a quote from one of the other women who was who was in printer, who I still keep in touch with and yeah, you know, she said, like, I mean, thank God, I just something crazy. That's something like that. Not many people could say that. They've had an exciting experience like that. And it's such an exciting life. There is definitely an element of, of edge pushing to my life. You know, I'm an adrenaline junkie. I'm super curious. I always want to see the things that people aren't looking at, you know, I want I want to see the man behind the curtain. Ilana, like, you know, just like I just have the urge to have that kind of bite out of life and it doesn't was winding up in the best places, you know. But it has given me some very interesting stories the next memoir that I've read that you wrote was everything you ever wanted. Can you share with the viewers the sorry, not the viewers, the listeners, what that books about? Everything You Ever Wanted is about the process of adopting my older son. He's 14 Now, his name is tariku. We call them T. And he was adopted from Ethiopia. And before that, we had an extensive history with infertility and that and miscarriages. A lot of miscarriages. We were just sort of reflecting on it the other day. Now that's so far in the past, and like, there was a minute, my period was late. And I was just like, oh, wow, like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, gosh, yeah, I do not have enough notice for this right now. And we were just laughing and you know, of course, you know, we would have just accepted it as a blessing it was but yeah, and you know, whether it was miscarriage, just like period or whatever, like it hadn't happened in years. So we were reflecting on how painful that journey was. And, you know, now we have teenage boys, and it's not painful to me anymore, but I can remember. Yeah, yeah, it felt like and also like, your concerns get so different. Yeah, yeah. You know, try like listening with a glass trying to figure out who's a girlfriend? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Any wants to go to Annapolis? He must be like a navy combat pilot. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, and like, he's a whole person. But, you know, I wrote this book every day, I sat down and people criticize, I'm sure as you know, you know, people, women who talk about parenting, right about parenting, or podcasts about parenting mate material about parenting, like, we're exploiting our children. And I'm like, you know, parenting is as valid and experience you know, motherhood is as valid and experience as climbing Mount Everest, or anything else, or bagging groceries, or, you know, might be kowski worked at the post office. So what I was going through was early motherhood. And, you know, and adoption, which was, you know, really exciting, an interesting process, and I was dying to write about that. And, and our beautiful like, we consider our family that we met during that trip who really changed our life. We were there were nine families all together. And we really went through something together and not to like give any spoilers but for instance, they did our paperwork wrong. So we went through the whole week there and Addis transitioning him out of the orphanage you know how painful and difficult that was and of course I have 1000 funny stories about like, you know, like he's not pooping die people other people in the house that were already parents so they were Yeah, lets us but um you know, I mean, we all still keep in touch. Yeah, that's from and when our they had written your, we were like, supposed to adopt a child up to four years old. Like that. You You know, except they wrote four months old. Yeah. This the paperwork. So we're standing there like at the embassy, I am like, I have like the baby, and ergo, we're like ready to get on a plane the next day. There's nowhere to sit. It's just like, there's nowhere to go. Everyone else got their stuff. And they just kind of like walked away from us. And we were like I mean, I was running around, like, it was, you know, like, like, there was like, an alarm that nuclear missiles were coming. Like, I was like, shaking people. They're like, where did that man go? That man who was right there? Where did that man go? Anyway, so the whole group had a chance to go home, you know, we would have had just stayed there. And they come back for us, obviously, we're going to stay there for a long time. And they all stayed with us. Yeah, could pay for. I mean, it was like, it was most unlikely group of friends. And we all still, you know, love each other kids still know each other's incredible process. So, you know, I wanted to write about that those friendships. And then, you know, realizing that T was, you know, had special needs. And there's been diagnosed and re diagnosed column what? calm a lot of things. You know, diagnoses aren't magic. They can just maybe help you communicate with people. Right? About what might help. You know, I mean, basically, everything. We're like, Alright, so for $5,000, you just told us exactly what we already know. Thank you so much. I'm just, you know, the screening, screening and just learning for me to settle into this, you know, acceptance, which we all do as mothers, but I'm like it, I am a very imaginative and a kind way to myself, but, you know, also sort of a controlling person, I would like to, I would like to, like, set the diorama stage and, you know, bring my baby home and have I done all the reading all the, you know, I had to like mill to do the organic baby food and shit. I was canning, I don't know what happened. I really doubt. But, you know, what, he didn't give a shit about organically milled anything. And anything, or, you know, and I was like, we're gonna make homemade bread. Um, and, you know, that wasn't what you wanted or needed. It was, you know, that was my idea. Yeah. Do you want a given what her need? Do you think that some of that is sort of brought on by what, like society expects us mothers to be and the standard that they expect us to hold ourselves to? Yeah, I mean, really, I mean, not all of it, because I'm a little hyperactive myself. So, you know, it's like, you know, Scott will say, like, you know, I'll, I'm writing an article about Tango. So I, all of a sudden, like, all do is Tango for two solid months, like, I'm out every night till two in the morning, smelling like Argentine gangsters when I come home, you know? And, and then article came out and like, I haven't dance. And so, you know, it's like, I picked up on every, every parenting trend, every one of them, you know. And in Los Angeles, it's like, I mean, I imagine like in most major cities, you find you're sort of, you know, you have to find your sort of niche. If you want community to support us. So, you know, we had friends that were into Waldorf, we had friends that were into something called dry. I don't know if you know what that is. It's basically like, put your babies in an octagon and just like, let them work it out. Let the curiosity out. Okay. It's a new one for me. I went to this Oh, I mean, and the baby yoga and ever, and all these kids are like, you now and my kid just gets in there and just wants that toy. And Bob said, Can the head and takes it. And you're supposed to sit there and watch, right? That's like the whole idea of a thing. Like you don't interfere with their their growth or their interaction during the group. And at some point, I was just looking at, I was like, Do you guys want me to get my kid because he's gonna hurt your kids. Like, this is not a principle that works for everyone. You know, but everyone thinks the thing that not everyone, there plenty of people have had multiple experiences, you know, the thing that they find that whatever methodology of parenting or schooling, works for them is the only way and it's hard for me to explain to them, like, my kid would have been kicked out of a Waldorf school and a week, you know, and, like, the French school. Like, wouldn't just already knew that we're going to kick them out. But we are going to kick them out. Yeah, you know. So it was about that journey for me. And, you know, as all my books are, and people find it hard to be written about not t he loves that book. Yeah. But he, you know, he knows, he knows what happened, you know, and he knows sort of my version of it. And he has his version of it. And he's really proud of the book. And so my No, and that was my goal. When I wrote it. I was like, This is a gift to my son. Yeah, you know, I'm talking about all this stuff, warts and all. But this is a gift to my son, ultimately, that, you know, the first, like, almost three years of his life are really pretty. You know, like, the major points are pretty well documented in that book. And I would hope that you know, that that that'll be special to him someday. Jovi's book coming, I'm like, No, I'm so done. Do you might get an essay, like second child syndrome Yeah. You just mentioned JB, how old? Is he idea? Yeah. So he, he came to you in a slightly different way was through. Right. So we adopted tea from Ethiopia when he was 11 months old. We thought, you know, Ethiopia would be a great choice again, because there's so much you know, it's a rich culturally, and he's really into it. And, you know, there were no more adoptions happening in Ethiopia at the time. I was just going over there and doing kind of grassroots work in communities and, and, and orphanages and stuff. So, I mean, that was best I could do like to be close to his culture, but we'd have to Jovie out of the foster care system here. DCFS. And we had really, we knew that the likelihood of black boys being adopted after the age of two, I mean, the likelihood of Blackboard is being adopted at all. But after the age of two, like it's almost nothing. Percentages are so low. And we had been through so much with T. And he was really kind of out the other side of it by then. I mean, he's still like struggling attention and stuff. But you know, he wasn't. I mean, now, like I said, you you would never guess. Yeah, yep. No, it was just like, I'm like, here's the perfect. Here's the perfect example. She the minute I open Christmas ornaments for the first time. And he looked at them, he just picked one. Just a ball looks like a ball rather than the wall. Oh, yeah. goes in like tiny shards, a really thin glass all over the living room. Yeah. Joe V, we adopted to DCFS because, like, we felt really moved by that. And also, we thought like, if not us, then who? I mean, really, we've been through so much. We have these resources. You know, like, we have resources for another child. And we have resources for, you know, therapy with like, no, the best therapists we have done all this training. And, um, and it was still so scary. Yeah. You really, really scary, like Skarner those, you know, we both have, we're both prayerful people. We don't often pray together. There have been only like a handful of times in our life. And we come from different traditions. So like, pray differently. But like after the first time, we met Jovi, and we realized he couldn't really talk. You know, like, half his mouth was all rotted out. I changed his diaper stone diapers. I mean, he was wearing a size two, us three and a half. Like, there was no hand soap in the house. He was getting the shit beat out of him by older kids. And it was really scary. You know, and we pulled the car over and just like, held hands and just prayed for guidance and and, you know, and sad sat there for a minute together. And he turned and looked to me and he said, you know, someone's gotta believe in someone's on time. Live Let's believe in this kid. It's making that's yeah. Oh, yeah. Such an asshole. Sometimes she really nails it like the times that he nails it, he nails it. One of them someone's gonna believe in someone sometime. And you know, and the first months with Jovi for us were like, we would just hold him while he screamed and scream and like, sweat was covering his body. Like he was so slick. Like, we were like, human hold on to him. And you know, who's screaming cry, he would lie under the bed. Like, I would just go and kind of lie next to the bed. Like, I'm just here. You know, we're gonna talk. Like you didn't even have any words. You didn't know a cow said Moo. Yeah, and 123 or ABC, you know? So not only is he in this totally unfamiliar environment doesn't understand why. Um, he only now barely understands why. Yeah, wrap his head around what happened? You know, the events life that led us here. And he's only just starting to ask. But yeah, it was like, I mean, he was always so funny. Yeah. So funny. And so adorable. I mean, all these are survival skills, you know, the same way like a big shining bright star. Um, and you know, in, in traumatic situations for children, they'll often get really big and now there'll be the one that gets the attention. Or the one that gets more food maybe or the one that you know. Yeah, yeah, so Jovi. I'm thinking it really started to turn around for us. Like three years ago, you know, we took him to, he got an autism diagnosis, we took him to a really specialized preschool that was almost like one on one. Yeah. And there were like, only five kids in the class. And you know, it was specifically for kids with autism. For the most part, you know, or symptoms presenting that way. And we had to attend with him for like, the first six months. I know. I know. Like, you are fucking with me right now. Like, I can't even drop this kid off at autism preschool. Like, what do you do here? Please, God, someone helped me. But it was amazing. It totally changed things. He did, you know, he matriculated in kinder, and we had a really supportive school, really supportive Public Charter School, who love the kids and aren't scared. They, they're not scared of a diagnosis. They're, they do IEPs, which are individualized education programs, if your kid needs, you know, because every kid is supposed to get the education they need. And so they do their own IPs. They have great people who work with Jovi and he plays a violin and he dances and he knows how to take breaks. And I mean, he is he's brilliant. He's working at and above grade level. Yeah, like you told me the other day like I don't want to be in this baby math class anymore. failing math class. School is not necessarily separated by grade all the time. Like they'll have like a b and c mat and and like they might have kids from different grades in like who are just at that level of math right. So I you know, I called the school I was like me, can we have a meeting because Joby feels like he's in the baby math class? And they're like, Joby, you are the youngest person in your class. You're not in the baby math class, and you're not ready for the next one. But what a what a miracle. Oh, yeah. It's, it's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah, I love soccer. He loves our animals. Yeah. And the trauma stuff, it's all there. No, and for both of them, it comes out. At different times, there are different triggers, like the job aids, a lot of medical stuff, hospitals, things like that. Like we had to take them to the hospital, he had a really high fever and hell get bronchial stuff. It changed the hospital recently, and that check blood and he for two days was like, a one year old. You know, if you progress you know, and so different things would trigger it. And it'll come popping up but I mean, I don't think about it every minute of every day anymore. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. So it's I mean, you you've been through so much. And you know, I think it's like it's a credit to yourself and to Scott that, you know, you've got so much love to give your children and you know, like you said you've done certain training like you've learned how to assist them when they need it and it's just it's a joy like you're experiencing now. You know, the other side of it. It's wonderful Jovi when his soccer game, even though I had to pay I have six. You know, I'm just like, you're supposed to like it just being an all star team is just parent torture. Like I made all stars. Yay. Yeah, we have to do I have to like drive an hour 630 On a Sunday. But um, how old are your kids? So Alex, he's 14 and Digby seven. So if we ever get, but I can relate to the likes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, degrees just started playing tennis and it's the first time we've had any either child play a Saturday morning sport. So we're like, geez, we did want to get out of it for this. Now. Now I do. Yeah. Got like, I pulled the curtains at six this morning. You know what Soccer League? is what I think about you cycling Yeah. Nik, I know you've you said before we started recording, you've been talking a lot about your serial killers and things. But I sort of without talking specifically too much about that. But I want to talk about how it's affected you as a mother. It's pretty full on. It has been, it has been really hard. And I can't say I feel like I have an answer for you. That worked. Yeah, no, I was totally successful. Because everyone in my family was affected by me working on that story. You know, and it happened like that, like at the very end of it. When everyone was like, like, this is like enough of this poison in our lives, even though the work I was doing was so amazing and wonderful and gratifying in terms of the victims. Like, I was talking on speakerphone to a serial killer every single day. And then COVID hit, and everyone's in the house all the time. Yeah. And so like, it's not that big of a house. I can know and it echoes and stuff and like, and they know who they know what I do. And they know who I'm talking to it. Like, I mean team more than Jovi, you know, but T asks and I answer and I say you know, this is like, disturbing. disturbs me. And I love that you're curious because like Alaska, how they solve the case or something. Like I love that you're curious. I love talking about this stuff. But like also do you want to talk about how it makes you feel? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mama dog bite out makes me feel that, you know, he's like, he's like junior detective. So like, he'll get into the, you know, is a really good linear critical thinker. So like, he'll get into the, like, the stories leads and stuff with me, but I'm really, you know, it, it affected the most, because I wasn't around the piece that involves a lot of traveling. And it was just also present involved like me working 12 to 14 hours a day. So I wasn't around. And I was like an on hyper vigilance. Getting these calls from a serial killer every day. Yeah. Um, and you know, which was both for audio content for the documentary and stuff, but it was mostly, you know, to have a record of the kind of details I was getting from him to give to law enforcement. Because like I work very closely with law enforcement during the scene. Um, little case, because like I had his year, you know? Or he had my year end in a case. Yeah. Um, so I wasn't around a lot. I was when I look back, I can see it more than I saw then that like, my anger was coming out. Yeah. You know, because it's like they can deal with sadness. And just like if if you're crying, they don't mommy cries like that. It's like a joke. Mommy cries, right. Like, like, if there's ever a scene in a movie that's sad. Like, like, I mean, don't even talk to me about Mallanna. Okay. Ana has like four huge crime moments like to and you get over him fast, but Mallanna. So they'll be like, are you crying and crying? But I think I was. I was angry. No. And that was coming out in a way that I am from New York, I'm sarcastic. i If you have dinner with my family, you are going to have to, like raise your decibel level to get heard. Um, you know, and like, we razz each other all the time. And it just, it's an East Coast thing. It's just it's just how my family is. Oh, do I know my biggest parenting tip? Yeah. You want to know how to get your kids to not swear? Swear all the time? Really? I mean it. Yeah. And brown who's also whose parenting counselor says the same thing. She has a really filthy mouth. You know, like, Fuck was every other word. My house. So you know, I'm like, sorry, Mommy's not gonna go changing and this is parents don't talk like that do they don't? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Yeah, that's the thing is that like you? You talked about that anger. And I guess that's thing you're processing all your emotions that you're going through, and you're speaking to this man and finding out all these things and, and dealing with the families of, of people that he's harmed. And then you're trying to process that volume of it. Overwhelming. I mean, there were 93 confessions. Like it's hard enough to deal with one. That's just you can't fathom, like sort through this. I mean, I had 40 notebooks, it was glitzy making. And I think that, you know, what I didn't have was that tiny bit of extra space. Like, that was there for a really long time. That could always like make a beautiful dinner, you know, and just like reconnect, or sit and watch movie with Jovi or play cards or something. And like, you know, I wound up just like, shoveling soup into my mouth in front of the computer for you know, I mean, years. So we're just sort of trying to get a routine back here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I do want to sort of shine a light on the work that you've done. It didn't commend you for that. And thank you for that. Because it's such important work and obviously the families of the women would be incredibly grateful for the work that you've done. I mean, I I know that you know, I know them I mean, not, you know, there were a few victims into which I did a really deep dive, and then a few victims that I helped solve the cases. And when I saw it from top to bottom, I figured out it was in a different jurisdiction. Yeah. And, and with that, I was able to find some articles that look like they matched, and that I went to the place. And it was exactly what Sam described. And you know, and I was, and that was Alice. And I'm really close with Alice's family. They came to town, her sister came to town with her two nieces. You know, they, they took me out to lunch. And, you know, like, they said that until they realized, like, until I called them and told them, you know, and I do it very, very slowly, like, the Navier sisters come up in some of my research. You know, and would you like to know anything about it? And then I'll, you know, I'll give him a chance to say no, I don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's not like you just bled all. Even with Debbie with Alice's sister. You know, she asked for a couple of days. And, and as a journalist, you're like, you know, you want to like you just have this instinct and this training to like, never walk away you walk away and give someone a couple days, then they're gonna decide not to talk to you. Yeah, that's right. Then if you let anyone think about it, they're gonna do it. She actually called me back and was like, okay, like I'm ready to talk about this I talked about with my kids talked about it with my husband. Like I'd like to hear everything you have I'm a member of the military and I'm have a very strong backbone and you know Tamera thing and and she's just remarkable and then Denise brothers, I went to Odessa, Texas just like drove there on my own and you know, and her family like welcomed me into their kitchen and showed me their pictures and love letters and you know Audrey Nelson's daughter and I do think that my kids understand that I mean, regardless of you know Sam little not being the last project of my life you know, we're gonna move on I will stay in this field continuing to find missing persons and you know just get it out there as much as I can and restore names to women who have been lost Yeah, good on you system etc. Yeah, I'm with you know, they're gonna they're gonna have to get behind. On that is it do you find that it's important that your children see you as more than a library air quotes is just mom because we're never just mom but that you're also contributing so much with your work that you're doing and your writing and your investigation. I imagine that their feelings about it are going to change over time. You know, Jovi will say things like you're always working mad like made me feel horrible. I don't know what they'll think and I don't think It's I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me. I was never gonna give up my career. You know? And, like, T asked me a few days ago, because I was like, Oh, over there baby pictures. I don't know why there was some out. Yeah. And there's, but we're both the cutest thing in the world. And, and, you know, of course, like all kids always want to hear about how cute they were when they're babies. And when the funny things they said, and they love their own mythologies. And he said, Well, you know, did you like it better? Or we got a new puppy. And he said, did you like better? Having a baby or having a teenager? And I said, How many teenager? Yeah, you know, and he was like, what? Like, how would you say like, I guess I was supposed to say, you know, I love him all like all those years. But I didn't. Like, I liked them. I mean, it's not like I liked them more. Now. I just liked my life more now. If they consider a restaurant, or I like our life as a family more now we went to a friend of mines been named spa the other day, and they were able to sit through the whole ceremony and I almost you could have knocked me over with a feather. Yeah. And and they're both like, into their things. And they're super interesting. And like, I don't have to, you know, be the party clown all day. My mother never understood, like, this parenting generation at all. She was like, What are you doing? What are you talking about? Because I was like, No, I gotta go this group and that group in this group in that group. She's like, can you just give them a choo choo? And like, put them in a play pen? What? Go home at Virginia slam and have a bottle of red wine which is just like your own nuts. You don't? Then but then again, you know, I did go and walk the route that I used to walk to school. Last time I was home and I was like, trying to get me killed. Seriously, that is a lonely path through a dark wood. Oh, no joke. It's got to be something in between, you know, but yeah, that battle, you know, now now that they're into their own things. I mean, of course, you know, I love babies and love baby smell. I love other people's babies. I love my grandbabies. Hopefully one day. But that's nice. I tell them the truth. And it was like, Oh, you're so horrible. I could do say that. Like, personnel and I really like you. Yeah. And see, that's the thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest with your children. Like, you know, we don't have to sugarcoat everything and make, you know, pleat. People please another night just can be honest with them and life's great now, you know, like, you'd be happy about that. I think that, you know, at the same time, I like to try and be conscious of, you know, I mean, maybe like the totally honest me is, is not to me, my kids need Yeah, like Vanita mitigated me, like so does everybody know I'm on to me, like full force. But, you know, they definitely bring like a consciousness to how I talk, you know, and, like, I know, I know that when I do it right. And don't like, you know, shames Graeme, all that stuff. When I do it right, and like, you know, have a conversation. I mean, there have been times like it actually worked recently. Yeah. Like, you're gonna have to learn to put your clothes away. Like, I'm not like I will, they will sit here in a pile until you do like you want to go to the Navy. By the way, get up and do some push up. Yeah. Oh, close away. So yeah, that sounds very similar to my son, he's wants to be in the army but never makes his bed fixed. Like, hang on a sec, that's not gonna cut it. You know, I, I think that he's been starting to be able to hear it. Like thinking about his future a little bit. That's been the biggest difference this year. He's 14, you know? And I've been like, Listen, I need you to hear me because you're like college, this in college, that when I'm in college, and I was like, colleges doesn't happen magically. Um, and we can't pay for a private college for two children for four years. Like, who can't who can't write. So I was like, we're gonna have to think creatively. You know, I don't want you in debt for the rest of your life, either. You know, so let's start to really think about this, you know, what scores do you need to get into what schools and and then you know, and all he wants airplanes, airplanes, air. And just like one day, I was like, What about the Air Force Academy? And he was just like, Huh. Like I was doing for ROTC program, which is like, where they start doing, like some military training when they're still in high school. Like, Yeah, boy scouts, but soldiers. Yeah, right. Yeah. And he was like, Huh. So then he got on to that. And then, you know, I started finding out about the Navy pilots, Annapolis, and then, you know, we worked up going to and we called my friend who was a pilot. And, and he said, you know, is there such a thing? Is there really such a thing as Top Gun? And my friend was like, There absolutely is. It's not called that. It's called, like, the flight defense superveloce Law, some stupid thing, like somebody in Hollywood camp, a Top Gun. But it isn't an absolutely real thing. And he said, but you're not going to get into it. It's like, the top 1% of fliers in the country. And, you know, it's like getting into Harvard, or like, you know, becoming president or something. Like, it's not quite that hard, but, you know, is, but it's like getting into Harvard. It's like, yeah, and, you know, the, the likelihood is, you won't get it. And you said, okay, you know, and they talked more and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, we were just talking I was like, so how does that make you feel? You know, when he says it's impossible? And he was like, um, I don't know. I was like, because when someone tells me something's impossible, it kind of makes me feel like proving them wrong. And I just watched his eyes light up. And oh, no, this one my friends. It's like pitching for the Dodgers. Right? Or like joining the NBA. Ya know, and I was like, you know, what, you you're 14. We know you're not pitching for the Dodgers. Sorry. You're not You're very good pitcher. But you're not pitching for the Dodgers. You know, and you're not in MBA either. That's not going to happen. I was like, but we don't know. What if you're, if you are going to be in the NBA of fliers. Pilots like you very well could be like the the amount of time he puts in on the flight simulator. And I was like, so. I mean, we could have a lot of different plans. But if that's what you want to do, let's go for it. You know, Oh yeah, that's awesome. It's so fun, you know, and then to have them be like, Yeah, I'm gonna be the Dodger pitchers of combat pilot. Good on him. So, it's really thrilling. It's really fun. I try not to get like, too excited though or like, show it about anything they're into. You know, because moms are not cool by their nature. Don't embarrass them. You tell me what you think, like this generation of kids are really different from me, like when my parents were 35 they were old people. Like they were total grownups. You know, who like stockbroker housewife, dinner parties, grownups and kids were like, you know, listen through from the upstairs. Um, and, like, and, and there was this combativeness between, you know, like, you make yourself like Adley and punk rock clothes are listening to punk rock music, or my parents really a hidden problem with that, like, why? Yeah, it seems like such such a tiny thing to sacrifice a relationship with your child for, um, but they were just raised by different people. But like, our friends, our group of friends and our kids, like, all hang out together. Yeah, it's definitely different. Like, I remember the same thing like Mum and Dad would have, they had, we had a passage door that sort of divided the living area and the bedrooms. And that whenever we went to bed that would always be shut, and we'd hear the, they'd be out there with their friends. And we could We'd sneak to the door and listen, you know, it's just, I feel like, like, us, our, our parenting styles have changed so much that we include our children in so much more now. And I think that also allows us to, I don't know, I don't wanna say not grow up, because we, you know, we physically grow up, but we were still ourselves. We don't have to take on this role of the big serious parents that you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, and that's also not me. You know, like, I mean, you know, entail I was doing some really serious journalism and traveling, like, the Deep South and stuff, and I took my hair back now, I had blue hair till just a few years ago. And man T would like be on the road and get our hair done together and matching blue hair. And it was just like, you know, how fun and also like, we don't listen to all that much different music than they do. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we're into superhero movies. I love Star Wars. So was his number one. Yeah. And that's driven by me. We are Marvel Universe here. Yeah. Yeah. All about Marvel. Yeah. We are like we already have tickets for Black Panther opening. Yeah, it's like, we're not that. I mean, now you know, T likes to just talk to his friends on the phone. Actually, one of his friends is going to show up any minute. But um, nice talk to his friends, you know, and just on his iPads I mean, he could do it all day long. So it's not like he wants to hang around us all the time. But like, we had a couple of nerf wars lately. Yeah. And you're my husband is veteran and a lot of our friends are also veterans. So they are extraordinarily serious about like, organizing the teams and you had to like each have a little, you know, space and you gotta go get the flag and get back and if you get hit twice, whatever. Yeah, um, you know, but like, they wanted the parents to play. Yeah. Last the last birthday party. We went to parents played kids in kickball. Yep. And great. Yeah. It's like, you know, like, parents versus kids. Like, I don't think. I mean, when I was 14, are you kidding? Like, yeah, it'd be just no way. Hey, we hated them. And we they wouldn't play kickball. Are you kidding? We're like busy smoking at the mall. Yeah, it's good. It's great. I'm so pleased. Like, I feel like I've got a really good relationship with my 14 year old like he, you know, we're very close. And it's really good. And I hope it stays that way. As he gets out of me, it goes up and down. You know, my 14 year old and I've always, we're both stubborn. And we've come to blows for sure. I'm not actual blows. But yeah. You know, we like to say lock horns. Yeah. And so, you know, it's been kind of up and down. But right now, I'm just enjoying them a lot. Yeah. So it's kind of them and they're trying, you know, we've been just sort of talking about how, you know, we all need help. And they're old enough now. To like, participate, you know, their babies, like, they don't need to be taken care of every single second of every day. And, you know, and that we're all participating in this house in this life. And we have to, like, act politely toward each other. And you know, not have to be asked seven times to put on your shoes or to go to bed or to like, it's just it's time for that all to stop now. Yeah. I can relate to that so much. Yeah. And put in the laundry away. And, you know, it's just yeah. And like we took Jovi to soccer game this morning and left to home alone. Yep. And I was just like, one. And Scott was like, He's 14. He's fine. He'll wake up, make his breakfast. He knows where we're going. You know, back in two hours. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, I guess I was babysitting when I was 12. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, so I think they're like, the kids are kind of younger now too. Yeah. I mean, little group and this little school. Very thankful for. Yeah. I told you that I I left home and went to college when I was 16. I did. And, and he's like, that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh, man, I was like, You know what, you are exactly correct. That was not a very good. I know, he said, Where was it? And I was like, it's it was in New York. It was in in Greenwich Village in New York. And he was like, you were living in New York when you were 16 That doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh. And I was like, Yeah, you know why? Because then I told him I sneak out of the house and take the bus into New York. I was like, you don't have to do that you like you're like I'm gonna go to a concert dad gets on the phone with his manager. You know, obviously if you guys have a box you know, I You really don't have any reason to get out of the house. Yeah. on that, but I can't let you go without mentioning. You've mentioned Scott a few times and his connection to music, that he's the bass player for Weezer, and full disclosure, I'm a massive what he's a fan. I've got my little ways of paying for the fair club. And I've seen him sing them twice. They've come to Australia a couple of times, but my, I've got to share with you my funniest Weezer story was when they first came out, I think it was 96 or 97. And I just started going out with, like, my husband, obviously, we weren't married then. And we were playing in Adelaide, which is five hours drive from here. And I said to him, I really want to go see this band. And my favorite band, like this sweater song was out. It was blue Album Era. And he said, Ah, you know, if they're big band, they'll they'll come back again soon, you know, we'll go next time, you know. Anyway, 14 years later, I waited 14 years to see them play in Melbourne, and I'm lying. Now I just got to the same thing that they hadn't been to us ever wanted to go so badly. And it was actually, like, one of the times that he was like, you know, I'd like to stay here a little longer. Like, there's some beach. That's supposed to be like, really cool. Is this Sydney? Or like Bondi Beach in Sydney? Maybe? Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. And he's like, I just want to go like, stay there for apps like do, please. You know, but it was like, too long of a flight for tea at that time. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. So I was gonna say I saw on your socials that he went on the last tour. With the band. Yeah. It's so great to juvie. Yeah, and it's perfect. Kind of for now. You know, like, I can go and fly to the shows in like, major cities that we want to see. Or, like, I have my own career. I've taken two kids on tour. Bus Tour, like three times, like, months of living on a bus. As just like, I'm gonna, like put out a shingle and start telling fortunes or something like, I I can't do this anymore. You've done the hard work. Laughing like, you've been less schlepping now because they're old. But the schlepping of the baby crap. Yeah, yes. It's like That's the worst part. Yeah, that's why I hate the beach. Yeah, there's so much stuff. There is so much stuff. Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, then like, you know, you've to date the car seat. The car Student Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much to consider last you are new mothers out there. That's something I don't miss. I'll tell you. Neither, but then, you know, I look at the baby pictures. And I go. I'm a monster. About these angels. Yeah. Look, I'll thank you so much for coming on. Julian. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. And you too, and we'd be happy to be in touch again. Oh, thank you. And just before you go, do you want to share is it you've got to your books coming out my book, Behold, the monster is coming out another thing next July. Um, and there is also a documentary called confronting a serial killer that's streaming on most major networks right now. That's about me. Like it's limited, you know, five one hour episodes directed by Joe burrow injure and it's just about my relationship with Sam and and solving some of the cases. And super excited for the book. I'll be around talking a lot about crime. And strangely enough, you know, even moms have interests beyond macaroni collages Yes. We were true crime fans. Um, we're just like this part is relaxing. Are you getting turned on the DOM or documentary? You know, my website, Julian lauren.com. You can find everything there. I'm on Instagram actually and Lauren I'm on Tik Tok. Don't even ask. They talked me into it. It's kind of fun. It's really fun. Yeah, I haven't gotten you don't you have to do this mom. Like you have to do this. Or you're just not anything. Get with the time. Not going anywhere. Mom's ticked off. Anyway, good. Just Julie and lauren.com. Everything's there and preorder the books. Great. Yay. Thank you so much, and all the best and yeah, I'd love to chat again one day and yeah, keep doing what you're doing and and say hi to Scott for me. Yes, and go see Weezer. It's great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Gina Graham US photographer + social worker S2 Ep77 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In this final regular episode for the year I welcome Gina Graham to the podcast. Gina is a clinical social worker and a photographer based in Chicago USA and a mother of 2 boys. Growing up Gina was inspired by her photographer dad to experiment with taking photos, but didn't think that she could do it seriously. She dabbled with it in high school and fell in love with it, but put it aside to pursue a career in mental health . Gina studied and became a certified clinical social worker and specialised in treating patients with eating disorders and disordered eating. During a break from her clinical work after having her children Gina rediscovered her love for photography. Her style is very natural, soulful, emotive and raw. When it came time for her to return to her 'day job' she was looking for a way to blend her two passions, she wanted her photography to be a real and true representation and celebration of the unique and diverse feminine beauty in the world. Her two passions collided in her recent book Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World which is a collection of conversations and photos of women and girls, around the topic of body image and self acceptance. ***This episode contains discussion around body image, diet culture + eating disorders.*** Gina - website / instagram / buy her book Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. In this final regular episode for the year I welcome Gina Graham to the podcast. Gina is a clinical social worker and a photographer based in Chicago USA and a mother of 2 boys. Growing up Gina was inspired by her photographer dad to experiment with taking photos, but didn't think that she could do it seriously. She dabbled with it in high school and fell in love with it, but put it aside to pursue a career in mental health . Gina studied and became a certified clinical social worker and specialised in treating patients with eating disorders and disordered eating. During a break from her clinical work after having her children Gina rediscovered her love for photography. Her style is very natural, soulful, emotive and raw. When it came time for her to return to her 'day job' she was looking for a way to blend her two passions, she wanted her photography to be a real and true representation and celebration of the unique and diverse feminine beauty in the world. Her two passions collided in her recent book Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World which is a collection of conversations and photos of women and girls, around the topic of body image and self acceptance. ***This episode contains discussion around body image, diet culture + eating disorders.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. thank you so much for coming on, Gina. It's absolute pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me out. And I'm excited to be here. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So you're in the United States in Chicago. Is that right? I am. I am. I'm actually in the suburb of Chicago. Yeah. So totally different day than your night actually, in your Yeah, well, in the next day at this point, so. Oh, it's cool. It's one of the fun things about doing these podcasts is talking to people from all around the world. It's just, I love knowing about what time it is and what your worth is, like. That's like, the two things that I find really fascinating. Right, right. Right. Well, our weather actually, we just finished up the most gorgeous fall, I think in the history of, you know, on record, it was like the most stunning beautiful change of colors. We had amazing warm temperatures. I mean, we were really very spoiled. And then you know, the frost always comes eventually. So we're definitely kind of hitting our cold time of year and it'll be it's you know, the temperatures have dropped and it'll stay cold in Chicago most likely until well into spring. So we're kind of hunkering down and getting out our winter coats and know that we you know, got away with longer weather much longer than we typically do so yeah, do you guys get snowed in um yeah we do we do we get a good bit of snow and we also get you know, typically in January and February like really brutal cold temperatures you know, high winds brutal cold you're probably are you on Celsius? Yeah with Celsius but like Yeah, yeah, I know we sometimes get temperatures that are you know, like single digits and Fahrenheit. So you're gonna be like, You know what in the in the negatives and we can even have wind chills below you know, below zero and Fahrenheit, which is really cool. Yeah, like minus 17. That is in Celsius. Yeah, that sounds Holy moly. Yeah, it gets it gets brutal. Gosh, we're already sometimes grumpy bunch that time of year I always tell friends you know, friends and family that live all around the country and in other in other parts of the world like Chicago is a great city to come visit but you may not want to come in January or February. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's see I went when it gets wet our daytime here in winters probably. Hang on. I'm gonna say 13 Celsius. But what would that be for you guys? Probably like mid 40s. Right? Hanging? Fahrenheit? Yes, I 55 Roughly. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm whinge about that being cold. But I can clearly have nothing to do I think I would do well. I think I would do well in Australia. I think that sounds about right. Like once you get below 55. Why? Why go outside? That sounds about right. Yeah. Why I chose to live here is a whole long other funny story. But yeah. Good times, hey. So you're a clinical social worker, and also a photographer. So I, what sort of came first for you? What was the interest that grabbed you sort of first? Yeah. So that it's a it's a really great question. Because I would have to say that photography grabbed me first, when I was in high school, I actually, my dad, back in the 80s, actually, you know, did a lot of photography. So he was always kind of lugging his Nikon in his tripod, and, sorry, I have a dog that has to be by my side at all times. Hear him barking or whatever he is, he does not leave my side. So So anyway, my Dad Yeah, just was always doing photography when I was a kid. And I was kind of exposed to all of that. And then when I was in high school, I did take a photography class, and I just really fell in love with it. And it's interesting, because I think, you know, looking back on it now, you know, my, my teacher was very complimentary about, you know, just kind of the natural composition and kind of my eye for photography. But I think I just always thought maybe creative endeavors weren't really my thing. I have an a brother, who's one year older, who is an incredibly creative person. And so I think I always thought he was like the creative one in the family. Like there's only allowed to be one and it was him and so it couldn't be me and I had to find something else. So as much as I loved it at that time, it kind of fell by the wayside even though I was always the girl at the party that was like, you know, taking pictures on my camera at the time and And, you know, spent some time doing photography, but not really, even in college did some but, but not really seriously until later. So I actually, you know, had kind of some experiences that led me to, you know, the mental health world at an early and an earlier time in my life. And I just was so kind of blown away by the transformational kind of capacity and experience that can be therapy for people in mental health. And I kind of took a few different roads, when I was in college trying to decide, you know, what my major was going to be bounced around a little bit, and then settled on being kind of in the space of physical education and wellness and health, and then kind of stumbled into mental health and clinical psychology from there. So, in 2002, I graduated with my master's degree and as a licensed clinical social worker, and I've been doing clinical social work ever since then. So. So that was definitely, you know, kind of became my bread and butter career, you know, as a young adult very early on. And, and I've, and I've, you know, I took a short break, when my kids were kind of growing up for a couple years, I stepped away from a practice that I was in, but for the most part, I've been doing that ever since. And photography is kind of, then had a fun resurgence in my life a little bit later, which was kind of an exciting rediscovery of that medium. Hmm. Can you tell us a bit of how that did happen? How that sort of came back in? Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of, you know, like I said, I had taken a little bit of a break, when my kids were babies, I was kind of trying to juggle, you know, like life as a mom working in a very clinical, you know, very kind of demanding field at the time, I was in private practice work. And, you know, so it was just kind of me servicing these clients that had a lot of needs. And you know, it was a pretty high risk population, I've always worked, treating the field of eating disorders, and you can have a lot of medical complications and a lot of extra things, you kind of have to kind of keep tabs on from a medical perspective. And so I was juggling a lot at that time when my babies were small, and, you know, was just kind of increasingly able to work less and less because of difficulty with finding the right childcare. And, you know, my husband works in a job where he travels a bit and you know, commutes into the city, and sometimes it's gone long hours. And so, you know, it became obvious to me that, I just kind of felt ready to take a little break, I felt ready to kind of be home a little more and not try to do that juggle. So I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to take a couple years, and step away from that work. And in that time, I was loving being a mom. But I think I kind of had a combination of, you know, just all of the emotions that gets stirred up when you're a mom, and you're raising kids and wanting to capture it and seeing how fast it goes. And then I think I just kind of started to get really curious about, you know, it's like, I think the expression is like the date, the years are short, but the days are long. And I had some like long days at home with two very active young boys. And I just kind of got curious about what I was interested in, that could be a part of that day, that could also be kind of meaningful. And so I decided to get a camera and just kind of, you know, play around a little bit, I kind of just point and shoot camera. And every time I would try to take pictures on my boys, everything was blurry, and I just couldn't get an image that I liked. And so I thought, you know, what, I'm going to just kind of get an official, you know, digital camera, and kind of teach myself how to use it so that I'm not always frustrated with the pictures that I'm getting. So you know, in that time, I just kind of started to explore it kind of really retaught myself the things that I learned about, you know, the basics of photography when I was in high school, except at that time, it was film and I was, you know, rolling film in the dark and learning that medium, that type of photography, and I had to kind of relearn how to, you know, be a digital photographer and the digital age. So, you know, it was just a lot of trial and error and playing around and getting excited when I started doing things that I thought, you know, were fun to look at or meaningful for me. And then over time, had friends kind of start to notice or other people would say, Oh, would you just come over and quickly take a picture of like, you know us for our Christmas card, and then it kind of turned into this sort of side hustle family photography gig that I never in a million years would have thought I was doing while I was on hiatus from this very clinical demanding kind of mental health role. So it was a really odd time for me because I was really all of a sudden introduced to this whole side of myself that I not only never knew that I had but was actually convinced that I didn't have and so it actually was really meaningful and beautiful in a lot of ways because I got to all of a sudden kind of blossom in an area of my life that now I just can't imagine not, you know, being a photographer and seeing the world the way that I've kind of taught myself to see the world. So, um, yeah, so that's so the photography kind of got rolled into all of it, then, you know, that's a great story. I'm glad you came back to it. Thank you with your photography, how would you describe the style of photos that you like to take? Yeah, um, I think that over time, um, I would say I definitely really wanted my photography to be emotive, I wanted people to look at a photo and, you know, feel something, I wanted it to sometimes be maybe even like, a little bit like raw or true to real life. And, you know, I kind of always felt like, if people kind of came away from something feeling like, you know, a photoshoot that I did in any way sort of offered a little glimpse into their soul or made them feel something in their soul, like the word soulful, just kind of kept coming up, when I wouldn't think about the type of work that I always aspire to me, right. Whether or not I land on that is a different story. But it's definitely always in my mind that, you know, something emotive. And, and I think that's, you know, kind of where I've landed in terms of photographing women, you know, I was doing some family photography for a while and sort of was doing a little bit of everything, right? Like, hey, you need headshots, I'll do it, you need family photos for a Christmas card, I'll do it you need, you know, pictures of your new baby, I'll do it. And so I was kind of like the jack of all trades photographer, which I think a lot of photographers start out doing that. But you know, I started to feel this tug, and this pole to go back into my clinical practice at the time. And so I was just kind of trying to figure out, you know, how do I juggle it all? I can't, the reality is that I can't. So how do I take the work that I love to do in the world, which is, you know, working with young girls and women and helping people recover from, you know, eating disorders, and body image and self competence and self esteem issues? And how do I also kind of have my photography still be a part of my life. And so, you know, I think I've kind of definitely moved towards blending the two of them together. You know, we can talk a little bit about the book that I published earlier this year, that is definitely kind of a blending of all of the things that I've done up to this point in my life. But I think I finally kind of came into this realization that I wanted my photography to really be a real and true representation of, you know, and celebration of the unique and diverse, feminine beauty that is in the world all around us all the time, that is each and every one of us, right. And so, you know, it became really important for me to not be photoshopping bodies, or having people look overly perfect. I just kind of wanted it to be real girls, real women just being themselves and for people to kind of look at those images and say, Gosh, that's so beautiful. And don't they have all of their own unique kind of ways of manifesting beauty in the world? So, yeah, I'd love that. Because, yes, there's a whole a whole element of particularly on social media these days that says that we have to be a certain size and look a certain way before we can be deemed and I'm putting air quotes beautiful. Yeah, that's something that you're really passionate about. Yeah, yeah, that's what a lot of my work has really been. I think, you know, when you look at my clinical practice working within the field of eating disorders, it's an incredibly complex mental health issue. And I think part of what you know, is hard about it, is this this reality that, you know, I think we can kind of think, oh, it's, you know, just kind of predominantly young, white affluent girls that want to be thin for social media or for their appearance sake, that end up having eating disorders, and that's not true. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But what we do know in terms of how the eating disorder pathology really can take root is that, you know, body image can be a huge trigger for that. And I think even outside of having a clinical eating disorder or disordered eating or eating issues, the React alidium, unfortunately, is that most girls and women who have been raised in sort of, you know, kind of modern cultures where we have any type of advertising media, you know, products that are sold to us marketing, social media, you know, most of us are walking around, just no matter how we look, no matter how much we weigh, no matter how, what are ages, you know, most of us are walking around, just not feeling beautiful, not feeling good enough feeling like there's something wrong with us or our bodies are things that we wish we could change. And, you know, having spent the better part of 20 years working with people who feel that way. But seeing all of their gifts and strengths and talents and things that they're doing in the world, and then not being able to kind of reconcile those things, it just always really broke my heart. And I thought, gosh, if I can just, you know, put a drop in the bucket of, you know, girls and women's seeing themselves more, you know, in a way that celebrates who they really are, and kind of try to have this conversation about why are we all buying into this culture that convinces us of all of these things that just simply are tearing us down and not having us, you know, feeling like we're, you know, comfortable living in our own skin? So you mentioned your book there. So you bought your book came out recently? And can you tell us or I can read the title, it's called body beautiful, how changing the conversation about our bodies has the power to change the world? Tell us about it. Yeah, so So the book really came about because, you know, like I said, I've got this clinical background, I've been doing this for a long time. And everyone that comes to see me their story is also unique. And everything that you know, that they kind of bring to the table has their own kind of personal struggle, too. But I found over the years in doing this work, there were there were kind of themes in tools and discussion points that I was hitting on time and time again, right, with girls and women around this issue. And so I kind of felt after 20 years of doing this, like I had a couple of things, maybe just share a couple of things that might hopefully be helpful, right? I mean, that's the beauty of being at something for so long, and hopefully accruing some type of knowledge base that you can hopefully share. And I really felt called to do that. I think, you know, one of the things that's started to get really exciting for me in my photography work was the fact that I could bring clients in that trusted me and knew me. And I could say, let's do a fun portrait session, and I'm going to show you that you're not as big as you think you are, you're not as ugly as you think you are, you're actually beautiful, and you actually, you know, have so many unique and special qualities that you can focus on instead of all of those perceived flaws that you're looking at in the mirror. So I would bring clients into my office, we would do a photo shoot. And then we would in therapy, go through the images together and talk about what they were seeing and have an experience of them. And then they could kind of take the images as a tool to remind themselves later of how they felt in doing that work, or what they have learned from those sessions. And I really just loved from a photography and artistic creative standpoint, the idea as a photographer of putting someone just one individual in the frame and capturing, you know, the real beauty to that person. And so the whole book project kind of started out because, you know, it was COVID at the time, and I was really, really busy with my clinical practice, you know, in the, in the States, as I'm sure you know, all around the world that need for mental health services just skyrocketed, and we were all just kind of home. So I was home, you know, seeing servicing quite a few more clients than I typically would on my caseload, and just in front of the computer on Zoom meetings all day long. And, you know, no one was hiring me for photography. And I was really missing my photography work, I was really missing the work that I do as a creative person in that space in my life. And I just kind of got this idea of you know, I love coffee table books, and I love art books, and I love anything that is kind of like a photo book. And so I thought, well, what if I just put together a book of images of just as many girls and women that I can photograph and, you know, maybe I would like throw in some quotes and make it really artsy. And it was really important for me that the book itself be kind of like art, right? is a testament to like, aren't we all our own unique version of art, like, you know, and so I have this like really kind of creative, artistic way that I even just wanted the book to be represented. And, you know, and so I would kind of talk to all of these girls and women that I was photographing, and I would say, Hey, listen, I'm primarily going to take Your photograph for this book that I'm doing, but in order to really get some like quotes and kind of have us both feel uncomfortable about what we're doing, I just want to ask you some questions about your relationship to your body, or your body image, or what do you think about the cultural pressures for girls and women, and they would sit down and tell me like an hour, or twos worth of a story. And, and there would be tears. And there would be so much that came out of these girls and women that I was so blown away at what they were telling me just freely needing to talk about with this. And I was recording those conversations hoping to get like a quote, right, yeah. And I came away from it, like, wow, I have like this whole story of this person. And yes, I have photographs of them. But the things that they would say I felt were so relatable, or so empowering, or so inspiring or impactful that I was like, gosh, this is what this book really needs to be about. So the whole project really took a pivot, and it became kind of a collection of art, and stories and quotes and information. And I do share some things about navigating the world with, you know, hopefully navigating with better body image and some things to think about, or some, you know, kind of some tips and some things I've learned over the years and during the work that I do, but it really is designed to be written not necessarily even by me, but by all of these brave and courageous women that shared with me, their experience of living in their bodies, in the hopes that no matter where someone's living, in what culture in what body size, and what, at what age, there's something there that they might be able to think about their own experience, because the book is really designed to kind of go through the lifespan, you know, as we get older, and our bodies change, and we age are all kinds of things are happening to our bodies that we have to navigate. And, you know, this issue of body image, or how we feel in our skin doesn't go away after a certain age. And, you know, I would talk to women who were in their 60s and 70s, you know, who were struggling with, the way that they looked or their bodies or their aging bodies. And, you know, I just thought it was really important to tell that story so that we could all kind of just start to get curious and ask ourselves like, Okay, what does this mean for me? And how am I doing with this issue? And what still impacts me? And is there anything I could start to take like little baby steps towards changing my relationship with myself and my body? And is there anything I can do? Maybe to change this conversation culturally? Is there anything I can do maybe to be a role model to younger generations of girls and women, whether I'm a mom or an aunt, or you know, a family friend of a young girl or whatever, just to kind of have everyone questioning? You know, what does it mean for them personally to be living in their bodies in our culture? And what could they do to hopefully feel a little more at home in their own skin? Huh? Yeah. And I mean, I don't want without giving away too many secrets in your book. What are some ways we can start to do that? Yeah, yeah, it's such a great question. I think first and foremost, I think we have to just kind of create some awareness for ourselves of like, where did we learn this? Right? What are the seeds that were kind of planted that took root for to this belief system that I do not live in a body that is good enough, or I need to change and I think everybody kind of has this mix of, you know, things that they've been handed by culture, and things that they've been handed by their family of origin or their story growing up, you know, whether it was being teased or being bullied. So I think some of it is kind of just really starting to parcel out, what were those influences? And what do you think about that? Now, you know, I think I think people can kind of really start to ask the question of, okay, culture handed me all of these ideals and beliefs and shoulds, and rules and thoughts and pictures and images. But do I actually agree with that? Do I actually accept that is that something that I would want for my daughter, or, you know, someone that I love and care about? Is that the same expectation that I put on my friend? I think really trying to find little ways of standing up to diet culture is really important. I think there's a lot of chatter, you know, about just kind of all of this stuff that we've come to accept as part of our life and diet culture, right. Like we talk about our but we women sit around and we talk about our bodies, we talk about what we're eating, we talk about what we don't like, and we talk about what diets we're on and we talk about what exercise we're doing, and we talk about whose bodies we think are better than ours and we're so self deprecating and I just want us to just if nothing else, stop ourselves from having those conversations. You know, out and kind of start to think, Wow, this is not really positive or empowering for me to be talking this way about my body. And it's probably not helping the people that I'm talking to feel better about their bodies, and anyone that's overhearing it probably might also not feel good about their bodies, right. So, you know, the whole, the whole. The whole, like, genesis of the book really kind of came from the fact that I was at this photography conference, and I was having the most amazing weekend, the most amazing, I was so inspired. I was on cloud nine, I was thinking all these creative thoughts, and I was in this quiet, you know, cafe in the morning, and these two women came in with the only other two women in the in the room at the time, they were having this really, you know, kind of toxic, nasty conversation about their bodies at the table next to me. And we were the only ones in the whole place. And so I kind of heard the whole thing. I was like, Oh, bummer to hear that. Right? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Why do we do this? Yeah, yeah. Can we start? Yeah, it seems when you say that it reminds me of a conversation, I've got some people, some people that I know in my life. So I'd say we're in my life, but they are at the moment, doing challenges, like for the gym, to only eat a certain amount of calories, and they have to exercise this much. And when they talk about it, I just have to switch off because I came through a period where I worked in a gym and went through in, you know, treating my body not very well not eating properly. And so that's very triggering for me. But now, and but it actually also makes me want to say to him, why bother? Because if you're treating yourself like this limiting, restricting yourself for eight weeks, in eight weeks time, you're gonna go back to how you were and then you're going to get cross with yourself, because we can't sustain that. You know, and that's very toxic. The gym is an incredibly toxic environment. Yeah. And so when they talk about it now, I just think, Oh, God, gills, like, I want to say to them, like, like one of them said to me the other day, how many calories do you think's in a mandarin? You probably say Mandarin over there. And it was like, who cares? Like it's a piece of fruit like, this is where people's heads are at. And it just, I think that's how I used to be I used to have my little app, and I'll be counting calories. And I'd be out for tea. When I when we didn't have smartphones. I didn't, I was just a normal phone. And I had to message my husband and say, Can you look up on this calorie app, which dessert has the least calories so I can choose which one to have, you know, that incredible culture of not just enjoying yourself, but being so so preoccupied with it. And it's a horrible place to be it really it? It is a horrible place to be. And I think so many girls and women are tortured by this way of life in and I use that word very intentionally. You know, and, and I am not against health. I am very clear in the book, you know, I actually interview and talk to a health expert who had her own really incredible story of like, kind of like crushing it at the gym, right? Like she was like the most successful person at the gym, because like on paper and her weight and her weight loss and her metrics and what she was lifting and what she was eating. She was like crushing it. And everybody was like just putting her up on this pedestal. Meanwhile, she was depleted, she was in adrenal fatigue, she was miserable. She was hungry all the time. She was exhausted. Yeah, right. And so you know, I make it really very clear to anyone who was listening and who, you know, gives a fig about what I have to say that I think health is incredibly important. And so when you kind of look at that example, it's like, no, we actually need to be eating more fruits and vegetables. So if you're eating a fruit, let's kind of first of all, like, let's talk about do you have, you know, like, like, do you get enough of the right behaviors to promote health and wellness? And if you're making healthy choices, your body's going to go where it naturally is designed to go at that stage in your life? You know, given all of the other factors and can we be okay with it? Because it's actually a far more freeing enjoyable place to live. Like, I think if you were to ask most women, here's all the list of desserts, which one is the least calorie? Like and then to ask them, Is that also the one that you would enjoy? Or is that the one you actually want? Most? saying no. Right? Yeah. Honestly, like, I'm 46 years old. I don't know where it's going. I feel like I should still be 27 like life is moving. It's too short, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think we all kind of have these reminders, if we're looking for them that like, hey, life is short. It's okay. It's also hard. like Life is short, and it's hard. So can you give yourself a break, and let yourself enjoy the dessert that you want to enjoy. You don't have to eat all of it. If your body's telling you, if you're eating intuitively, you might not even want all of it, or slowing down and being mindful and eating intuitively, you might get halfway through that desert and say, I'm actually full. And I really enjoyed that. Right? Um, or you might eat it on say, That was lovely, and then move on with your life. Right? Yeah. And I think I think the diet culture will tell you, if you do that, you're going to be so overweight, you're going to be so unhealthy and all these terrible things are going to happen. And the reality is diet culture kind of sets us up for the opposite, right? deprivation, deprivation, deprivation, to your point, things we can't maintain and sustain. And then we drop it. And then we don't persist in asking ourselves like, what are the health promoting behaviors that might actually get me closer to where I want to be? Right. So from a medical standpoint, we mess up our metabolism. So that's why most diets fail metabolically, we throw ourselves you know, this you worked in gym you Oh, you know, like, we throw our saw our bodies into chaos and disarray, because we're not taking care of it. But culture was a Oh, good job, you lost weight. You said, I lost it by being miserable, and depriving myself and it's going to come back on because I'm not changing my behaviors. I'm focusing on the number. Right, yeah, it's that external validation. Like you said about that lady. That was she was the best at the gym and going awesome. It looks great from the outside. But yeah, the inside wasn't going so great. And I think that's yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that can relate to this. Because there's, I feel like, at the moment, there's a really big movement on social media to destroy this dark culture and to change the way that we think about food. And I don't know, the other day, so we're recording this in the middle of November, the heroin chic sort of things, this through the media now. It's like, oh, really, are we really going to go there? Again, like these people that don't eat, they have like cigarettes for lunch? And, you know, to look a certain way, because one particular industry wants, you know, them to, like, it's just so damaging. I know. And that actually, I mean, look, I I've been doing this for a lot of years. And I mean, I came up in that generation. So I'm very familiar with that body type in that messaging. And not a lot shocks me, I have to say when it comes to the things that we see in media, but that actually took my breath away for a minute when I was seeing that there was a particular publication that had posted, you know, this article that was saying, like, curves are dead and heroin chic is back. And I thought, you know, I actually had a couple of people messaged me, because I reposted kind of in shock and horror and outrage, and I had a couple of people messaged me, like, is that even real? And I'm thinking I agree, right? Like, in this day and age did did a journalist in a in a fairly sizable publication, actually, seriously post that I mean, in the midst of the opioid crisis that we're having, right. And in the midst of, you know, everything that we are really coming to understand about the importance of size, inclusion and diversity and all of the things that we've been working so hard for, are we now going to have a couple of news outlets post a trend about heroin chic for our bodies and get it like status back and I just was like, heartbroken. So yeah. If anything, it just kind of galvanized me even more about this book, and the messaging behind it. And the work that I do with my photography to say, you know, enough is enough, enough is enough. You know, because eating disorders, you know, outside of, you know, suicide do have the highest mortality rate of psychiatric illnesses and they are very dangerous and I think just even outside of that women walking around depriving their bodies and not taking care of their health is a crisis. So yeah, yeah. Totally crazy. Yeah, just shifting tech slightly. You mentioned before that your two boys and only boys now, so I have a 13 year old and a 15 year old. Yep. I'm in a house full of boys. I don't Muay Thai, clinical practice for you too. Oh, my gosh. We could talk all day about that. Yeah, I kind of joke in my clinic. Got practice I've raised you know, I raised a lot of girls over the years, but technically I am a boy mom, even my dog is a boy. It's all boys. Oh, do you? Did you have brothers growing up? Or you? Yeah, so I actually have one brother. He is one year older. Yes. You did say that earlier. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're kind of I think, I think, you know, here in the States, I think that's referred to as being the Irish twins, because we are literally one year apart almost to the day. So that's interesting. But, but it's funny, because when I was in high school, I mean, I had like, some really amazing girlfriends and close girlfriends. My whole life, I've always, you know, been lucky to have some very special girlfriends in my life. But I just, like, always felt really comfortable hanging out with the guys, you know, I had a ton of guy friends. So I think having a brother and like, you know, just kind of in a lot of ways throughout high school and college being kind of like one of the guys or that girl that was just always like friends with all the guys that had the girlfriends that the guys all wanted to go out with, like, that was me, right? Like, I was like the net friends. And like, I had all the really cute blonde girlfriends that everyone wanted to date. And that was like, that was like my life. And so I just was always really comfortable around, you know, the guy. So now I'm like, move with me and the guys, you know. And so as you know, the World Cup is coming up. So that's what we're starting to go how like, it's all of a sudden going to be like soccer locked down. And this is just all we do is watch sports and soccer and talk about soccer. So I have to kind of sometimes get my head in the game and be like, Yes, I have to pretend to know who these players are and all these things. Yeah, on that I'm gonna dampen the mood a bit on the soccer. How do you feel about where it's being held? And, you know, the ramifications of being in a country that doesn't treat women very well? Yeah, that's a yes, I know. And honestly, I, I, I feel like I've, I've not been following closely along with it. So I do kind of want to, you know, reserve too much comment. I think that I know, there's been a lot of controversy. I know, there's been a lot of, you know, just questions as to what's really going on, you know, in the inner workings of FIFA and so, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's gonna be really interesting to watch and to kind of see, but yeah, I think I think that we are definitely at a time historically, where I think it's really important for women to kind of champion other women all across the globe in any way possible. Right. And I just, you know, I know there's all parts of the world where there are things happening against women and for women that is not honoring the dignity and the spirit of women and it's truly heartbreaking. And I think it's really doing a disservice to our planet. I think that you know, women have such a incredible nurturing you know, kind of differently creative way of being in the world and I think I think kind of the the, the surgence of women to kind of come out and say, you know, we really need to kind of fight up and stand for you know, stand up and fight for you know, our rights and the rights of other women is really important right now. Absolutely. Because yes, there is a lot there's a lot of going on particularly like you know Iran and Afghanistan off the top of my head but I'm sure there's a lot going on in a lot of other places that we don't see on the New Zealand day too so yeah. question that I like to talk to all my moms about is the concept of mum guilt. Or Mum Mum guilt so that was a really bad attempt. Mom guilt minute. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Concept and the topic? Yeah, my mom guilt so mum guilt. Um, yeah, it's interesting. I, I mean, find me the mom that doesn't, you know, experienced this to some degree. I just, it's interesting because in my mental health work, I talk a lot with my clients about how the interesting thing is that we're truly like cave for If cave people living in this modern world, right, like our world has evolved in this incredible way, but like our bodies, and our brains have not caught up with it and have not kept pace. So there's a lot of things that I think happened psychologically, for the human race right now in modern culture that actually is kind of like trying to reconcile sort of these primitive parts of the brain are these primitive ways that the brain operates. And then like our kind of modern culture, and I think, mom guilt is kind of an interesting one, because I sort of wonder if that isn't a part of that, right? It's like, if you think about how the survival of our species literally is dependent on Mothers not only giving birth to the babies, but nursing them, nurturing them, feeding them caring for them, so that they can go on and propagate the species forward. So it's interesting when you think about like, Is mom guilt, almost one of these things that is hardwired into us that we're like, supposed to feel so that the species doesn't die out? Right? Yeah. And so I think so I think that, you know, it's interesting, like, it's so primal and primitive, like if we didn't have mom guilt, and we didn't feel tethered to our kids, no matter where we were, like, who would be taking care of the kids, you know, what I mean? So, I mean, really, because if you look at, you know, culturally, at least in sort of modern Western culture, you know, my generation is the first generation where I feel like, dads kind of have a very active part in sort of the upbringing and the rearing of their kids, right, the generations prior to us that were very well delineated gender roles. And so up until very, very, very recently, like right now in human history, if moms weren't feeling mom guilt, the children wouldn't be thriving. Right? Yeah. And that's a biological thing. So I think that we're just kind of trying to figure it out of women, right? It's like, I biologically primally primitively feel so tethered and kind of needed by my kids, and I want to be there. And I feel like I'm needing to be there. And I'm reconciling the fact that maybe I can't, I can't be there all the time. Right? Like, I literally don't have live in a village with my children around me all the time. And we don't go any farther than like these five huts. Yeah. So we have to as modern moms, we have to venture away from our kids. Some of us are in situations where financially we have to work, we have to be in the workforce, right? Some of us want to be in the workforce, some of us choose to stay at home, and raise our children and have the financial, you know, kind of benefits and wherewithal to be able to make that choice. But it still might not be good for us to be there all the time. Because we still might need to go out and pursue our own, you know, our own endeavors, our own, you know, friendship circles, our own things. And so I think it's really interesting when you kind of look at this idea of mom guilt, because, you know, I know, I know, everybody kind of grappled with it to some degree and struggles with it. But I do think it's kind of rooted in something very primitive that we need to kind of, just try to understand from the perspective of, you know, maybe looking through that lens, looking at it through that lens, but also giving ourselves permission to, you know, continue to kind of pursue whatever it is we need to pursue, or we want to pursue in the world with with maybe a little less guilt, you know, because, yeah, guilt is such a heavy emotion, you know? Absolutely. And I think you're definitely right. We do need something else other than our role as mothers and fathers. Because I'm pretty sure we did lots of things before we had children, we felt we fit lots into that time, you know, now we've got the children, but we still probably have things that we want to do. And, you know, some of us are fortunate enough to be able to do that, like whether it's, you know, we've got the time, we've got the resources or the way, just the way, our you know, our circumstances are, but I'm sure there's a lot of people that do want to do things and can't quite make it work, which would be very frustrating. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you know, I was I was, you know, like I said earlier, I was lucky that I, you know, was able to kind of take a few years off from my clinical practice when I needed to, I was kind of doing that juggle, and that hustle of all the things when my kids were babies and trying to figure out that stage of life with working. When I did take time off. I was, you know, such a, I was so kind of kind of fortunate to be able to be a very present mom. You know, and involved mom and in those years and so, now that I've shifted to being more involved with my work writing this book having different, you know, interests and passions outside of raising my kids, I would say that I personally am not in a season of my life, where I'm feeling an excessive amount of mom guilt, it's a little bit different. I think with teenagers, it's, you know, they have just very different needs of your, your, your presence and your focus and your your time and your energy. And so that's, I'm at a season of life where I'm just trying to figure out the trickiness of that, right, you know, and so, if I like, miss that little window, and then it's gone, you know, because we're on the same room for a while, or, you know, they're kind of out doing something or whatever, you know, I'm kind of at this stage of life, where I see how quickly it's all going and I can count, you know, with, with both my kids the number of years, they'll still be in this house on one hand with less thing you know, and so to me, that's, I think it's less about guilt, and just more about really wanting to double down on making the most of the time that we do have, because, you know, from from from my kids, it's a very busy stage of life, and everybody's going in lots of different directions. And the time that we do have all together that's kind of meaningful quality of time, just feels like it's constantly slipping through my fingers. So it's less of a guilt and more of kind of a melancholy a little bit and sort of a bittersweet, you know, reckoning of the reality of time. So, yeah, now I can definitely relate to that. I've got a almost 15 year old and a seven year old, so Oh, yeah. It's interesting. I want one to Well, I want them both to stop growing up, that would be nice. But the needs, the needs that they require are incredibly different. And it's, it's sometimes a very tricky juggle. Because yeah, you're right, when with those teenagers, you only get a limited time when they're available to you, I suppose. So. Be ready at the same time as gratiae with their presence. Okay, in Australia, what age do kids learn how to drive a car? I think we do come up if it's 16 or 17, six, okay. So you're not quite there yet. In the states where I live in Illinois, when you're 15. You can be learning to drive a car. Yeah. And you get your license when you're 16. So so I'm teaching my 15 year old how to drive right now. Which is, so I think, for me, the predominant emotion, going back to the question about manga isn't guilt, it's fear, right? It's like straight up anxiety and fear. Like my kids about to be on the road, he's on the road with friends who already have their license. They're out in the world, you know, when they kind of talk about like, bigger kids bigger problems, and having worked in mental health for teenagers for 20 years. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I think the predominant mental health issue for myself is less about guilt and worry about anxiety. Just straight up, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that stage. I'm really not. I'm really not. Because there's, there's a bit of a culture. We live in a country, sort of country area. And there's a bit of a culture about boys in cars, and, you know, driving fast and challenging each other and taking risks and all that sort of thing. So definitely not looking forward to that phase. But I think Alex is he's got his head screwed on right he's gonna be pretty right I think. I'm sure yes. Yeah, so the other thing that I really liked to talk about is this identity, so the way that we see ourselves and perhaps how that might have changed when you became a mother, did you sort of go through any sort of big shifts? Yeah, um, I mean, definitely, I think there were, like, right off the bat. So many events and things that just felt so deeply powerful for me that it you know, you just don't know to expect it you just think oh, I'm going to be a mom and you know, it's going to be great or it's going to be whatever it's gonna be, but like, you know, the things that really kind of knock your socks off, right? That just completely make you be like, Wow, I can't even believe I just experienced this or I experienced that feeling or whatever. So I definitely think, you know, becoming a mom really changed me in a lot of ways. It's, it's interesting because, you know, I think I am a bit of a kind of, naturally sort of perfectionistic sort of controlling type of person, and personality. And so, being a mom has really forced me to look at, you know, some of the things kind of in that shadow for me that I needed to kind of continue even, you know, 15 years later to just try every day, to kind of grow up myself a little bit like, my kids are kind of growing me up a bit too, in terms of like, faith and patience and things that you know, I'm trying to learn, I think that it is easy to feel that mothering and motherhood is so all consuming in so many ways, right? You have like the all consuming emotion you have the all consuming, especially when they're little all consuming need of like, literally your body in every last ounce of your energy and your whole kind of world does, especially in those early years get gets so caught up in the the role of mom or mum. And you know, and I think that it is it was interesting, I'll say, for me personally, it was interesting for me to kind of start to get curious about like, Okay, I love this, but like what else? You know, I love this, but who else? What, where else do I need to grow as a person? You know, I, I was kind of thrilled to get back into my work as a clinical therapist, because I think it just really drove home for me that we're all kind of like these little pie charts, right. And that was a big part of my pie chart was, you know that I'm a helping person and I have this skill set. And I have these kind of natural inclinations to help people in this way. And then photography became this other part of my pie chart, right. And then I've had other life experiences outside of being a mom that just happened in my 40s That made me really need to grow in my faith and my spiritual relationship and kind of caused me to really stop and question, you know, what do I really believe? And how do I want to live? And what are the areas of my life where I want to continue to grow just as a person outside of being a mom, just to be a, you know, a person who is constantly evolving and learning and growing and changing and not stagnating? Right. So I think, you know, there's been a little bit of all of that, for me, I think, you know, the, the fun surprising piece for me was that I think it was through becoming a mom that I was finally able to realize that I was a creative person. And that's just been the most beautiful gift in my life, right to kind of go through life with young boys doing creative things with them. I mean, we used to, like, you know, paint all the time. And we you know, we're redoing our basement one year, so we just kind of had like, you know, unfinished walls, and we just, like started painting big murals on the walls. And I just really got so into creative thinking, creative, living, creative being and of course, my photography was a part of that, but it's bigger than that, for me now, and I just love living life through that lens. And I think motherhood kind of birthed that for me. You know? It's interesting, you say that I was talking to someone the other day for a podcast, it said almost the same thing. was almost like having children gave them permission to let that creative side come out of them that they might have been holding in. Yeah, yeah. It's really good. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it for sure. Did that for me. And I think, you know, part of the thing that's hard, you know, and being a mom and being an or being a parent, or just being a busy person who is also a creative is like kind of finding time for all of that, you know, and so I think you know, really kind of reminding myself that you know, it's okay to make that a priority and it's okay to set aside some time for that. And if there isn't time for that in certain seasons for whatever reason, how can you still be a creative being in the world right? I mean, as mothers we are inherently creative, we created babies we created life. Yeah, we are all we are all creative beings. So so that very much kind of got switched on. All those lights got switched on for me. Wow, that's awesome. That's really good. With your creativity and in your book that you've made in the work that you do, is it important to you that your boys see that and see that you are capable of creativity outside of what you do with them as a mother? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I think I think they are probably constantly underwhelmed by me, and there's like, not a thing I could do that would be interesting or noteworthy. I mean, actually, I think they would go like the other way and say that, like, everything I do is actually cringy. And embarrassing. And I stop just even being in the room. Because it's so embarrassing. But but it but it really is important to me, I think, first and foremost, you know, like I said, we're kind of, you know, I have two boys that are kind of naturally athletically inclined, and, you know, my husband was an athlete. And so I kind of always want to remind them, like, hey, you know, we all have all five to Earth. And even though you're so aligned with, you know, your athletics and the sports that you love to do, like, don't forget that you used to really love to draw, don't forget that you used to actually really love to paint or you like, picked up musical instruments, when you were little or learn to, you know, play something for a time. And so, I think having my life having lived really well into my 30s, not thinking I was creative, it was almost, I felt like, you know, I kind of looking back on that just sort of feel sad at the thought that like, I wouldn't have been able to kind of be in touch with those parts of myself that now give me so much incredible, like inspiration and motivation and, and are such a part of my day to day life that I do want them to kind of see, hey, you know, you can have lots of different sides. And creativity is something that, you know, maybe mom does from time to time, or we do as a family or whatever, and like, you know, that they can always come back to those things or explore those things. You know, I'm a big believer that, you know, as you go through life, it is important to keep kind of growing and changing and learning new things. And it's kind of that, you know, fixed mindset, or open mindset or growth mindset type of thing, where it's like, you know, I think, you know, showing them like to just kind of always be open and have a growth mindset that, hey, you might not know how to do watercolours, but if you're interested in it, like you can certainly, you know, give it a try. In terms of the book, you know, it was really interesting, I do feel like, I was kind of able to recognize that the boys were kind of putting that together a little bit at the time that that book was launched, and we did a local launch, and it had a really good turnout. And it was kind of neat to see them be able to recognize that I had done something that hopefully is meaningful and kind of giving back. And it was very important for me to role model that for them, you know, I dedicated the book to my boys, even though it's a book about women's body image issues. And then I did that very intentionally, because I just really, so deeply want them to know, if you feel called or pulled in any direction to do anything. Go for it and do it and don't hold back. And you know, they, they did kind of see the blood, sweat and tears that went into that. And they did kind of get the behind the scenes of kind of what it took out of me and where I had to sacrifice in my life to make that happen. And all of the steps that I had to take to get there. And I was really proud that they were able to kind of see that model through the work that I had done. So yeah. Now that's really important. And I think when you're talking about including boys in things, like there's two points to that, I think it's important to note that any sort of eating disorder or disordered eating can happen to anybody. It doesn't just fit. Absolutely. But also I think it's really important that possibly the the hand that men have had, in creating this world, that women are so judgmental of themselves. And perhaps if they weren't doing that he might help us a little bit. Yeah, putting that in a nice way. But you know what I'm absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I do think there are, you know, it was hard for me to kind of look at that project through, you know, the lens of just kind of one gender, because I don't believe that my overall messaging is just about one gender, right. And in treating eating disorders, I certainly have seen and treated my fair share of boys and men with eating disorders and body image issues and their issues are just a little bit different. It's like, you know, there's kind of a different approach that you know, I would take or a different way that we kind of spin it I did think it was important to just kind of speak to the very specific cultural experience of God. Throwing up female. Yeah, yeah. And where that landed, but yeah, for sure. It can, you know, the insecurities or the the kind of Hey culture handed me this and, you know, now I don't know if that's really working for me can apply to all of us in some way, shape or form so yeah, cultural norms, that's something that I find interesting, I sort of, as I do this, I've been doing this podcast for 18 months, roughly. And as I've gone through, I sort of find these interesting threads that often come up. So then I add them into, like, the permanent thing that I like to talk about. And the cultural norms is something that I find really interesting. And we did talk briefly, we did sort of mentioned about, you know, this is the first generation where the dads are really involved, was your mum of that era, were mums had to just be at home, look after the family, or was your mum able to, you know, get her own interest and do our own interests and have our own outlet as well? Yeah, so my, my upbringing, I think I kind of have a, you know, generation that can kind of take the best of, you know, kind of both sides of that equation. In terms of my upbringing, you know, my mom was very much of the generation where, at least where I grew up, you know, most of the moms were stay at home moms. My mom was a teacher before, you know, my brother and I were born and when we were little, and she, you know, kind of did some work when we were little, but she's a very, she's, she is a very gifted writer, you know, but my mom, my mom is just so great. And that she has, you know, she, she has this spirit about her, she has this very kind of feisty spirit about her. And so when we were growing up, she was very involved, she was incredibly nurturing, she was always, you know, kind of helping us with whatever we needed and involved with our sports in school and all that. But she also, you know, kind of modeled that, hey, I'm gonna go out with my friends. And we're gonna go, you know, for doughnuts every Friday morning, or we're gonna go out and play golf, and she used to kind of go play rounds of golf. And, you know, I'd be, you know, we'd all be at the pool with our moms all off playing golf, like the whole day. No, so she definitely and you know, she always love to have a good party and have lots of great friends. And, you know, so my mom, I think very much, you know, kind of modeled for me, hey, you know, just because, you know, I'm here at home, you know, most of the day, and I don't work outside of the home right now, there are all these things that I want to go and do an experience. And, you know, my dad actually was, in the medical field, my dad was a dentist, and he had his own practice. And so I, I was kind of able to also have modeled for me through my dad, the importance of, you know, the importance and the challenges of being self employed. So I think that always really impacted me, you know, I would kind of see the benefits of him being self employed and being his own boss, but I certainly would see, like, the hard work and like that, the harder aspects of that, I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, I kind of very early on, even when I knew I wanted to work in mental health knew I wanted to be in private practice, because I kind of knew I wanted to, you know, kind of call the shots and have, you know, be self employed if, if at all possible. So, so I kind of had that, you know, modeled for me on both sides. And I think, you know, my family is very kind of, you know, my family of origin. My parents and my brother are very supportive of like, you know, hey, like, if you got a dream or something, go for it, you know, like, don't let life kind of pass you by without, you know, kind of pouring yourself into something creatively or something that you feel called to do. I mean, my dad is, you know, 75 in two weeks and up in like, you know, last month he was on a on a racetrack in Texas for the support races for the IndyCar Series and he loves like racing karts, so he's still at 75 out chasing his dream of being a racecar driver. So in my family, there's no shortage of hey, you know, if you want to make something happen, do everything in your power to try to make a go of it. So, you know, but also from my mom very much like the loving nurturing support side of that, too, so, hmm, it sounds pretty ideal. Yeah, thank you gave you that. That awesome start. That's great. Good luck. Dad, I hope he keeps doing it. I love that so you've got the book yet now, we I'm really excited about the book, I hope that, you know, there's something in there that speaks to girls and women, you know, at some level in some way, I just hope it's kind of inspirational and meaningful. Yeah, but the launch of it's been really exciting. Now I'm kind of in this place where I get to go and just kind of enjoy it being done, because it wasn't you forever, but also just enjoy being out in the world, right. So I'm kind of doing some local book events, or, you know, I may kind of plan some things for 2020, we're 2023 Sorry, where I, you know, I'm kind of partnering up partnering up with different female local businesses or different bookstores are different things just to kind of talk to people about the book and its contents and, you know, share a little bit more about it. You know, one of the things that's been really fun for me, and having done the book is this idea that I really want to kind of double down on, you know, through my clinical work helping girls and women specifically with their body image issues. So I'm kind of really have been kind of crafting and creating what I'm calling the body beautiful set series or sessions, and they're really just going to be kind of time limited therapy sessions with me, where we're going to set aside a certain number of sessions. And we're going to just kind of go through the nuts and bolts and nuggets of trying to live in the world with more positive body image. And some of that can kind of track off of the book, I've almost created kind of like a workbook or sort of PDF that, you know, if people are working with me in these series, they can kind of go through and even if they have an outside therapist, or they circle back to it later, you know that it just kind of reminds them of you know, some of this work that they want to do to have a better relationship to their bodies. And those sessions will include a photo shoot, which I'm super excited to do, and then we therapeutically can kind of walk through the images and what they're seeing and, and make sure that they can kind of resonate with something about it being beautiful or positive. And then in addition to that, I'm just really excited to get back into doing some more of my photography. You know, I think it's really important that we debunk the myth for women that we can like do it all simultaneously. I think it's really toxic for women to just kind of look and be like, Oh, look at her, she did the same, she did this thing. She's doing this, she's doing that, like she must be able to have this magic secret sauce that, you know, she can credit juggle all of these things. And, you know, the reality for me in the last, you know, now, you know, two over two years is that I had to backburner a lot of things in my life in order to still be a mom and still have my clinical practice and write this book. And so there are areas of my life that I've kind of missed out on a little bit that I'm really wanting to get back to. And my deep love of photography is one of those things, you know, my my kind of side hustle of photography business, you know, I was writing the book and I was like flexing all these new muscles as an author and writing this book and working on this project. And even though there's photography in the book, my actual photography, business muscles kind of atrophied a bit and so, you know, I really am excited to hopefully continue to grow my photography work I really want to specialize specifically in portraiture, celebrating anything having to do with female beauty and empowerment. So I call these sessions portrait her and they are just custom special photo shoots. It's really it could be like milestone, it could be maternity motherhood, you know, so the last year of high school here in America is like senior year so senior portraits are things that we do in the States, you know, when it's your last year of high school before you maybe go away to school or go to your job or whatever you're going to do so senior portraits, empowerment, you know, sessions, you know, so I just really want to kind of be able to focus in on my photography, I found myself drawn back into those photography books that first inspired me to write the books to begin with, I'm kind of playing around with you know, different cameras that I haven't had a chance to play with in a while different lenses and I just some really feeling hungry to be an artist in that way again, and kind of have a fresh body of work there. So I'm hoping that in 2023 that kind of takes back off and I can be creating more work there. But you know, it's always a juggling act. I mean, I definitely feel like you know, time is always what is in the Most short of supply for any and all of us, right so you know, I certainly wish I had more time to devote to you know, the creative artistic pursuits. Well, you never know. I'm sure we all do you awesome, so your website is life lens and love.com Yeah, awesome. And you're active on Instagram. That's where I found you. You're on. Are you on Facebook or any other of the social medias? I'm I am on Facebook. Not that well. On I have a I have a page on Facebook it primarily Mitch matriculates from my Instagram feed. I've not been very good about checking it on Facebook for quite some time now. But I've gotten off the off the chair off the rails on Facebook. It's just like, I'm like you, I link my Instagram. So anything that goes on Instagram is on Facebook. And then I just don't go on it. I just I've just really dropped off. I really have no desire to be on it to me. And I and honestly like sometimes it confuses me like I was on there after a long time and realizing that there were messages for me hidden in there for people that literally were very old. And I was like, I didn't even know where to find these. But they popped up and now I feel terrible that I never responded to these messages that people sent me on this separate messenger thing of Facebook that I somehow missed. So yeah, I've done that, too. I've done that too. It's NBA anyway, I could talk all about how much I don't love Facebook anymore. Me too. Me too. Me too. Instagram, like is making me kind of sad these days, you know, I feel like just this algorithm is really tricky. And I think there's a lot of people whose pages in work I love but I'm not seeing and you know, you really have to play the game. And I, you know, think if you if you want to jump on and make a real and be dancing and doing something fun and free spirited and I think that's amazing. But I just really want to see like photography, I want to see stills I want to see, you know, I want to see things that like I can kind of really, you know, kind of take away from and I don't know, I think it's kind of gotten a little too tick talky and I jump on Tik Tok, and it makes my head want to explode. And I don't know why he would want to spend any time there. It's, yeah, goldfish with a three second, you know, attention span. And so I just feel like, oh, I kind of hope that Instagram can kind of revert back to the original spirit of the app, because I really loved it. And it's early days. And now I feel like we're kind of getting in a space where I don't know how much longer I'll be, you know, trying to play that game. But we'll see. Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people. I say a lot of people, not a lot of people. A few people I've noticed lately have been getting completely off everything and just saying this is my email, but this go on my email list or visit my webpage. That's how I'm going to talk to people now. Because I think people are worried that if the like, we don't own our content that we put out. Like, if Instagram goes down, there goes all our stuff, you know. And so I think some people are starting to get a bit worried specifically with the way that Twitter has just been desecrated for one word, but knew who knows what could happen to anything at any time. So I don't know, if people get a bit worried. But you're also on YouTube, I saw you've got some content on YouTube as well, what sort of, to share on on YouTube? You know, it's that is an evolving bag of tricks. I don't know what's going on on YouTube. I still sometimes like why did I build this channel. But I know part of it was that I last year around the holidays, I felt like I was kind of seeing some just trends in my clinical practice that I thought a lot of people could really kind of relate to in terms of like different issues that come up with the holidays or stress at the holidays or whatever. And I just felt compelled to like make some short video clips or content and I just didn't really know like, where those should live and where to put those and, you know whether or not it's even helpful or meaningful so I just I've started to kind of say like, alright, if I ever do anything, you know, that is video related, certainly with a book launch, there were a few things that were, you know, kind of a few interviews that I did, and a few things with the publication of the book that were more video content, my publisher wanted me to kind of post a video of me like seeing the book for the first time. So that's on there, you know? And I thought, gosh, where does one go to post random video clips of themselves promoting their work in the world? I guess it's YouTube. Oh, you know, I was traveling with my kids, like, hey, Mom's got her sights set on being a YouTuber. A couple of subscribers. So if you're listening, and you are at all interested, you can join the other couple of people. But yeah, I don't know. You know, I mean, I very much relate to what you were saying that you were kind of hearing, I think I am in very many areas of my life feeling old to more of a just kind of an old school way of doing things. And technology's kind of shaping me a little bit in some ways, and kind of the modern pace. And the ways we're supposed to do everything is kind of grinding on me a little bit. Maybe it's just the time of year and coming to kind of coming off of this big year professionally. But I don't know what next year is going to hold for me in terms of how much I'm pumping all this stuff out there with the content and kind of trying to, you know, maybe have a presence on YouTube or social media, whatever we'll see. I mean, certainly with Instagram, I find it's just crazy. I do love the creative aspect of it. You know, I mean, I just feel like I share the music that I like, and I share the some of the stuff with different artists that I like and whatever else and some of it's super random, and I just feel like if anyone cares, they can check it out. Maybe, then I don't I don't know. But, you know, we'll see. We'll do we'll see. I mean, I certainly understand that bowl of you know, like, let's just kind of get back to like, meaningful relationships with the small circle of people and just kind of spend our time less on technology. Maybe. Yeah, see how that feels. They can get actually get bored again, like, remember what that feeling felt like? Like that? Yeah, fit nowadays. It feels like a rest. You're not bored. You're actually just having a rest from everything. That's overwhelming. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, if you can get that, that's awesome. We have to actively hunt for that. Right? I mean, I really look for pockets where we can create, we have to create that we won't get it right. That's so true. That is so true. Yeah, well, I'll put all the links, I'll put some hyperlinks in the show notes, so people can click away and find you and the link to purchase your book, which is pretty important. You're selling that through Amazon exclusively for Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. There's, there's a couple of other places you can find it in the States. I don't know if it would translate, you know, kind of, you know, outside of the states. It's like, yeah, there's a couple of other But Amazon is the best one to kind of go and find I feel like that's kind of the pipeline for all the books in the world is through their platform for just about everything, isn't it? Yeah, I haven't really, I have been really pleased that some of like, my local boutiques have picked it up and some other local businesses, which has been really nice to kind of see local places showing interest. It's good. I know. Some people have strong feelings about Amazon. Oh, that's great. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Gina. I've really loved meeting you and chatting with you. And thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences and all the best with everything I love. I love what you're doing. I love how you've combined these two completely different elements of your life into this. This book is amazing. And I love I love the ideas you've got coming up for the future. So yeah, thanks again. Thank you so much. And can I just say I am so in awe and inspired by your vocal talents and your singing and I love honestly I mean, I when I found out you were a musician, I was like, Oh, can I just tell you that that is like the the thing that I want to come back in my next life and be because I love music. I have a terrible singing voice. If I do anything it would be to sing. So I'm just like, I'm so in awe of what you do. And I Oh, thank you. That's lovely. We just say but I do have a belief a very long held belief that everybody can sing. We just not everyone knows how to use their instrument. So you never know if you're a good teacher. You might be right. That I don't know here's what I will tell you about that when my kids were babies like before they could even string together sentences you I would like because I always have music going I love to sing. I always had lullabies for them like, like hand like curated CD mixes of lullabies for like babies. Right? But But I would be in the car and I would be singing and they would quit like they were strapped in their little car seats. They couldn't even say sentences, but they will be like, Mommy, No, mommy, stop. Mommy, no. Mommy stop. So I did feel like you know, out of the mouth of babes confirmation that I am not a vocal talent. I got one the other day. I was singing along to a song and my seven year old said Ma'am, can you stop singing? You're wrecking the song. I pick your pardon. I said yes. Sure, mate. No worries. Right, right. I know. Yes. There's nothing honest. Yes. Why would she want about two and I love that you're doing this because I think really, you know, just introducing women to things that other women are doing and you know, just everyone kind of I think we learn through stories and relating. Absolutely no, and I think it's so powerful. I just love that you're doing this. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for coming on. That's my always think people thank me, but I got to thank you because you're the people that make it without you guys. There wouldn't be a podcast. Right. Thank you. Good on you. Thanks so much. I've had I've had lovely time to